# I need to find a Dutch attorney



## Mr. Staats (Mar 19, 2015)

I am presently in Europe, but not the Netherlands. I have been advised that I need consult a Dutch attorney about a legal matter. The other party is a Dutch company which will apparently claim that Dutch law applies to our dispute. I never signed any such agreement, but apparently I should at least know what my legal rights are under Dutch law, etc. I am looking for someone who speaks and understands English well enough to understand the subtleties of legal English in a contract without paying a fortune. Preferably, I would like to conduct discussions by email and Skype chats. Any help is appreciated.


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## Xircal (Mar 20, 2015)

Mr. Staats said:


> I am presently in Europe, but not the Netherlands. I have been advised that I need consult a Dutch attorney about a legal matter. The other party is a Dutch company which will apparently claim that Dutch law applies to our dispute. I never signed any such agreement, but apparently I should at least know what my legal rights are under Dutch law, etc. I am looking for someone who speaks and understands English well enough to understand the subtleties of legal English in a contract without paying a fortune. Preferably, I would like to conduct discussions by email and Skype chats. Any help is appreciated.


You can get free legal advice at Juridisch Loket: https://www.juridischloket.nl/

Use the email option, but make sure you formulate your question comprehensively in standard English avoiding the use of slang to describe events. 

If they think you have a valid case, they can refer you to a lawyer.


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## Mr. Staats (Mar 19, 2015)

Thanks! I will try this site.


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## Mr. Staats (Mar 19, 2015)

I sent a message using this site. I did notice that it is for those with a low income. I am between jobs right now, but not sure if I qualify. I am willing to pay for an attorney, but I was unable to find one by other means. The law firms that I see listed on the Internet are large ones and never returned my emails. Hopefully, this will work.


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## Xircal (Mar 20, 2015)

Mr. Staats said:


> I sent a message using this site. I did notice that it is for those with a low income. I am between jobs right now, but not sure if I qualify. I am willing to pay for an attorney, but I was unable to find one by other means. The law firms that I see listed on the Internet are large ones and never returned my emails. Hopefully, this will work.


Low income refers to those earning the minimum wage, or receiving welfare payments. 

In Dutch, the minimum wage is called "Minimumloon". You'll find the gross figures here: Hoe hoog is het minimumloon? | Vraag en antwoord | Rijksoverheid.nl

In the columns, "Leeftijd" means age. So if they ask you, tell them you earn €1500 a month gross (before tax) assuming you're over 23 yrs old. 

You could possibly approach a so called Pro Deo Advocaat which means an attorney willing to provide legal aid free of charge. The attorney subsequently applies to the law body in the Netherlands called Raad voor Rechtsbijstand. If approved, they issue a so called "Toevoeging". This means all costs are charged to the State except your own contribution. 

However, you have to satisfy the income limits in order to qualify: Pro deo advocaten - Kosten

"Alleenstand" means a single person. "Normen 2014" and "Eigen Bijdrage" refers to the contribution you have to pay according to your income over 2014. If you have any financial assets, those will be assessed as part of your income. You're allowed €5,500 which doesn't count as an asset.

Use the form to contact them: Pro deo advocaten - Contact

"Voornaam" = first name. "Achternaam" = surname. "Plaats" = city. "gsm" = mobile phone number. "_ik heb de disclaimer op de site gelezen en ben daarmee akkoord_" = you understand the terms and agree to them.

If you don't qualify for free legal aid I'd advise you not to proceed with your battle in spite of whether you think you're justified in doing so. The legal system is time consuming and costs can run into hundreds of thousands of euros as each party appeals the verdict to a higher court. You have to weigh those kind of things up against the cost of whatever amount the other party is demanding of you. 

Also, if you managed to get a Pro Deo attorney, but the verdict goes against you, you'll have to pay the amount they're demanding plus the other party's attorney costs. At around €400 an hour, those will mount up pretty quickly believe me.


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## Mr. Staats (Mar 19, 2015)

Thanks for the advice. They owe me money, and should I lose, they could never collect a penny from me for sure. Presently, I am between jobs and have no income. I am living off my savings which is more than €5,500, but decreasing. How does this affect the calculations?


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## Xircal (Mar 20, 2015)

Mr. Staats said:


> Thanks for the advice. They owe me money, and should I lose, they could never collect a penny from me for sure. Presently, I am between jobs and have no income. I am living off my savings which is more than €5,500, but decreasing. How does this affect the calculations?


If your savings are higher than €5,500 then you're deemed to be above the low income limit despite not having a salary unfortunately. Actually, the figure has increased slightly for this year to €5,895 for a single person and €11,790 for a couple. 

As for your misguided belief (no offence intended) that the company won't collect if you lose, they can apply to have your assets seized if need be. So if you own a house for example, that will be sold off to pay off the debt. And they won't sell it at its market value either. If the house is worth say €800,000, but the debt is only €8000, then that's what they'll sell it for. In that respect, they're not acting in your interests and only want to get the money you owe them and their legal team. 

Even if you rent, but have your own furniture, they can obtain a court order to seize furnishings, your car, mobile phone and anything of value which can be sold to pay off the debt. 

The court can also order your salary to be confiscated if need be. They'll leave you with enough to live on, but that's all.

In addition, you'll have to pay Interest over the outstanding debt. In the Netherlands, it's called the Wettelijke Rente and is determined annually by the Ministry of Finance. If your dispute with this company was between you as an individual, then the Interest is 2% p.a. But if you were acting as company and the debt is considered to be the result of a business transaction, then the annual Interest rate rises to 8,05%.

Of course, if you were to instruct an attorney and won your case, then the exact same Interest rates will be exacted on the other party along with your costs. But that's a different kettle of fish.


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## Mr. Staats (Mar 19, 2015)

Well thank you for all of your information. As I appear not to qualify for free legal services, how do I find a Dutch attorney? Is there a referral service? I am looking for something between a large, expensive Dutch law firm, and free advice pro bono. At this point I am not looking to file a lawsuit, but I do need to consult with a Dutch lawyer to simply know what my legal rights and options are under Dutch law. I have been advised that I can file suit in another E.U. nation's courts, which I may do, as I expect litigation will be cheaper there. I am simply trying to explore my options, as I was advised by other counsel to consult a Dutch lawyer.


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## Xircal (Mar 20, 2015)

Mr. Staats said:


> Well thank you for all of your information. As I appear not to qualify for free legal services, how do I find a Dutch attorney? Is there a referral service? I am looking for something between a large, expensive Dutch law firm, and free advice pro bono. At this point I am not looking to file a lawsuit, but I do need to consult with a Dutch lawyer to simply know what my legal rights and options are under Dutch law. I have been advised that I can file suit in another E.U. nation's courts, which I may do, as I expect litigation will be cheaper there. I am simply trying to explore my options, as I was advised by other counsel to consult a Dutch lawyer.


The Dutch organisation is called De Nederlandse Orde van Advocaten. This is their site, but it's only in Dutch: https://www.advocatenorde.nl/3/consumenten/consumenten.html

As regards pro bono, it's forbidden by law for an attorney to undertake a case on a "No cure, no pay" basis. You can however make use of a so called free consultation which in Dutch is called "Gratis kennismaken eerste gesprek" if they have one. That gives you 30 minutes free of charge for them to make an assessment of your chances of winning. The only problem here is that you have to appear personally. 

You could perhaps try this one: Abma Schreurs - Contactgegevens en formulier 

They handled a case for me which I won (_which partly explains my knowledge of the subject_) The link takes you to an online form where you can choose how you wish to be contacted. 

I have a question though. Are you a consumer, or a business? If you're a consumer, you could possibly submit your case to the Geschillencommissie. This is a legal body which can handle a dispute between a consumer and a company if the latter is registered with them. The one time fee is only €28 and their verdict is legally binding. 

If they found in your favour and the business fails to abide by their decision, you'll have no problem taking legal action against them. 

The Geschillencommissie site can be found here: English | De Geschillencommissie


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## Mr. Staats (Mar 19, 2015)

Thank you again. A am a consumer. I contacted the firm you recommended. It would be helpful if they accepted payment by credit card. 

_Pro Bono_ does not refer to legal contingency fees:



Wikipedia said:


> _Pro bono publico_ (English: for the public good; usually shortened to _pro bono_) is a Latin phrase for professional work undertaken voluntarily and without payment or at a reduced fee as a public service. It is common in the legal profession and is increasingly seen in architecture, marketing, medicine, technology, and strategy consulting firms. _Pro bono_ service, unlike traditional volunteerism, uses the specific skills of professionals to provide services to those who are unable to afford them.
> 
> _Pro Bono Publico_ is also used in the United Kingdom to describe the central motivation of large organizations such as the National Health Service, and various NGOs, which exist "for the public good", rather than for shareholder profit.


Pro bono - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Xircal (Mar 20, 2015)

Mr. Staats said:


> Thank you again. A am a consumer. I contacted the firm you recommended. It would be helpful if they accepted payment by credit card.
> 
> _Pro Bono_ does not refer to legal contingency fees:
> 
> ...


Yes, I understand that, but if you click the link to "Nederlands" in the menu on the left of the Wikipedia article, you'll see that it's called "Pro Deo" in the Netherlands. I mentioned that earlier you may recall. 

"Pro bono" as far as the Dutch legal system is concerned means specifically "No cure, no pay" which is forbidden. 

I don't know if the attorney (advocaat in Dutch) I mentioned accepts credit cards as a method of payment. You would have to discuss that with them.


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## Mr. Staats (Mar 19, 2015)

I have sent many email to Dutch law firms, including the one you suggested. I have yet to receive a response, not even so much as a "Thank you. Someone will respond to you shortly. Is there some trick to getting a response from them? Maybe my email address didn't get past the spam filter?


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## Mr. Staats (Mar 19, 2015)

I eventually had to cal their phone number because my email was ignored. I paid a retainer and the advice I received was incomplete. My first bill indicates that I am being billed for "office fees" not based upon materials used, etc., but at 6% of attorneys fees. That was never disclosed. According to the invoice, the monthly fee may be due 14 days after the date of the invoice. (The invoice was in Dutch and I don't quite understand it.) However, they don't accept payment by check or credit card. They only want money wired to their bank account. When I noted that this was quite expensive relative to the size of what they claim is due, they suggested that I deposit a large sum of money with them. When I replied for clarification about when the payment was expected, I got a non-responsive email which now repeated that I should send a large retainer "To make sure you can pay", and the money must be received within 7 days. Wiring money internationally doesn't happen quickly, and I still don't know what services I might expect in exchange for the large retainer. I am still waiting for a response from the lawyer. I am less than happy with my dealings with this firm, and will soon be looking for another. I find them less than professional and certainly not friendly to international clients.



Xircal said:


> You could perhaps try this one: Abma Schreurs - Contactgegevens en formulier
> 
> They handled a case for me which I won (_which partly explains my knowledge of the subject_) The link takes you to an online form where you can choose how you wish to be contacted.


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## Dutchess (Jun 30, 2015)

Hello, I am sorry you are going through such a hassle. I have had to hire an attorney in another country before and it is definitely unnerving having to do these things long distance within a legal system you are not familiar with.

The experiences you are describing here do not sound typical for The Netherlands though. Perhaps there is something in the way you communicate that is not working for you. It may be that you are a bit vague, like you are here, using a lot of general terms without coming to the point. Perhaps they believe they are being scammed and do not want to waste time? Or perhaps you are making so many requests and asking so much detailed information beforehand that they don't want to waste their time on a case that will not make them money?

When I needed an attorney in the US, I just picked up the phone and called every attorney in the county until I found one that was willing to help me and sounded like they could in fact help me. I too had to deposit a large sum of money from which their fees were paid. I did not think much of it. To me it made sense that they wanted to be sure that their bills were going to be paid for. 

The information given before is incorrect. In Holland pro bono and no cure no pay are NOT the same thing. However in Holland pro deo is more common than pro bono. Pro deo is where the state pays a large part of the legal fees. Pro bono is more like a form of PR for a law firm and it is more common in the US than it is in The Netherlands. No cure no pay is just what it is in the US too, but it is illegal in Holland. There is however the "no win no fee" base, which means you pay a lower fee when you loose and a higher fee when you win. I suspect not many lawyers offer this option though. It is simply not a Dutch pastime to start lawsuits like it is in the US so lawyers expect to be paid for their work and don't have to go on local tv channels with cheap rate promos and advertisements.

I think you are acting as though your lawyers are somehow representating the country that is causing you legal problems. Wiring money internationally can be done quickly, even the same day. Everybody knows this and making such claims just makes it sound like you are looking for an excuse not to pay. The Netherlands doesn't use credit cards like you are used to. It is what it is. When I had to pay my attorney in the US I had to call a friend to ask if I could pay through him, because he had a credit card. Don't make a big deal out of small things. It just adds to your frustration and makes it difficult for people to want to help you. This lawfirm did not start this lawsuit nor did they write the law. For you it may be incredibly frustrating, for them it is just a job. They go home at night and don't give it a second thought until they see your email the next morning. 

I really do understand your frustration here, but there are so many American law firms with a branch in Holland that you can find within 30 seconds of googling. Why don't you just approach those if you are not impressed by the Dutch customer service? And did you ever try the link for the "juridisch loket" that Xircal provided? That was a good tip and it may give you some free advice even if it won't give you free counsel all the way through. There is no harm in trying.

Again, I can't stress enough how sorry I am that you are having to go through this. I have gone through 7 years of this and even though it all worked out well for me, it was incredibly difficult and stressful at the time. I have been smacked upside the head with Texan laws that sounded too ludicrous to be real laws. I don't know what it is you are dealing with here and you too may come across one or two laws that sound horribly injust but I think you can take comfort in knowing that the spirit of the law in both our countries is fairly similar. If you are right, you will win. Good luck to you!


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## Mr. Staats (Mar 19, 2015)

Thank you for your reply. 

In fairness, this is not a usual matter. It involves a Dutch subsidiary of a U.S. company which partnered with an English institution. Their business is advertised on the U.S. parent company's server in the U.S. The Dutch subsidiary is IMHO, nothing but an empty shell intended to create confusion and to drive up the cost of litigation. So there is the preliminary question of what court has jurisdiction, and what nation's laws should apply to the case. (The court in the Netherlands can and does decide cases based on foreign law.) It is a large mess, and I have consulted with lawyers in the U.S., U.K., and now the Netherlands. 

What I have learned is that consumer protection law in the E.U. is extremely weak. It is an even bigger mess for someone without residency in the E.U. The laws that do exist are subject to the peculiarities of each nation's courts, because the E.U. lacks "federal" laws for such things. So, perhaps that explains why my emails sent in English received no answer. Perhaps, my emails never made it past their spam filters. My experience is that they only answer phone inquiries.

The fact that the Netherlands prohibits contingency fees appears to drive up the cost of litigation as it encourages lawyers to pad their fees and waste the clients' time. OK, that is the system here and I will deal with it. I simply need to find the right lawyer. The ones that I have dealt with so far appear to be ignorant of U.S. law: If the server is in the U.S., then U.S. law applies to the advertisement and offer from the advertised partnership. (In U.S. law one partner is the agent for the partnership, and one partner does bind the partnership to a contract.) I have looked at the website mentioned. I am handicapped because it is in Dutch. I did not find any claiming to be related to U.S. law firms. If you can recommend such a firm, please advise me.

As for payment, wiring money is more complicated from outside the E.U. than from within it. I could send money by Western Union and have it arrive the same day, but this firm only wants money wired into its bank account. Not all banks send international bank wires, and usually a third intermediary bank is required. Sometimes the wire gets lost and the money needs to be tracked down. I don't appreciate "hard sell" pressure tactics demanding payment "with in 7 days" when there is no guarantee that money would arrive that fast. That is not customary for international transactions, nor is it reasonable. Yes, a large retainer is often required when a lawsuit is filed, but I have yet to get a commitment that the suit will be filed. What I want is finally to have someone file the lawsuit and let the judge decide what law applies to the parties of the case. Only the judge's opinion matters.




Dutchess said:


> Hello, I am sorry you are going through such a hassle. I have had to hire an attorney in another country before and it is definitely unnerving having to do these things long distance within a legal system you are not familiar with.
> 
> The experiences you are describing here do not sound typical for The Netherlands though. Perhaps there is something in the way you communicate that is not working for you. It may be that you are a bit vague, like you are here, using a lot of general terms without coming to the point. Perhaps they believe they are being scammed and do not want to waste time? Or perhaps you are making so many requests and asking so much detailed information beforehand that they don't want to waste their time on a case that will not make them money?
> 
> ...


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## Bjorn - Expat City (Jul 30, 2015)

Mr. Staats said:


> I eventually had to cal their phone number because my email was ignored. I paid a retainer and the advice I received was incomplete. My first bill indicates that I am being billed for "office fees" not based upon materials used, etc., but at 6% of attorneys fees. That was never disclosed. According to the invoice, the monthly fee may be due 14 days after the date of the invoice. (The invoice was in Dutch and I don't quite understand it.) However, they don't accept payment by check or credit card. They only want money wired to their bank account. When I noted that this was quite expensive relative to the size of what they claim is due, they suggested that I deposit a large sum of money with them. When I replied for clarification about when the payment was expected, I got a non-responsive email which now repeated that I should send a large retainer "To make sure you can pay", and the money must be received within 7 days. Wiring money internationally doesn't happen quickly, and I still don't know what services I might expect in exchange for the large retainer. I am still waiting for a response from the lawyer. I am less than happy with my dealings with this firm, and will soon be looking for another. I find them less than professional and certainly not friendly to international clients.


Dear Mr. Staats,

Even though the way the law firm acted could be considered as untransparent, this is how most law firms work in the Netherlands. Furthermore, most law firms specialized in civil law are not used to international clients. 

If you are still looking for a transparant and decent lawyer (who can deal with international customers) you can contact me on bjorn at expatcity.nl. Please describe your legal issue shortly in the email. I will contact you within 24 hours with a solution to your problem.

All the best!


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## branding54321 (Jul 26, 2015)

Well thank you for all of your information. As I appear not to qualify for free legal services, how do I find a Dutch attorney? Is there a referral service? I am looking for something between a large, expensive Dutch law firm, and free advice pro bono. At this point I am not looking to file a lawsuit, but I do need to consult with a Dutch lawyer to simply know what my legal rights and options are under Dutch law. I have been advised that I can file suit in another E.U. nation's courts, which I may do, as I expect litigation will be cheaper there. I am simply trying to explore my options, as I was advised by other counsel to consult a Dutch lawyer.


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## Bjorn - Expat City (Jul 30, 2015)

branding54321 said:


> Well thank you for all of your information. As I appear not to qualify for free legal services, how do I find a Dutch attorney? Is there a referral service? I am looking for something between a large, expensive Dutch law firm, and free advice pro bono. At this point I am not looking to file a lawsuit, but I do need to consult with a Dutch lawyer to simply know what my legal rights and options are under Dutch law. I have been advised that I can file suit in another E.U. nation's courts, which I may do, as I expect litigation will be cheaper there. I am simply trying to explore my options, as I was advised by other counsel to consult a Dutch lawyer.


Dear branding54321,

<snip>


All the best,

Bjørn


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## Dutchess (Jun 30, 2015)

Like I said before, google American lawfirms in Amsterdam or The Netherlands. They are plenty and may be more to your liking.


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