# 87,000 fewer British people in Spain



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Spain's population is shrinking and in part it's due to the number of foreigners who are leaving. Here's an article about it in Spanish
El número de extranjeros empadronados se redujo el año pasado en más de medio millón de personas

Según datos difundidos hoy por el Instituto Nacional de Estadística (INE) del Padrón a 1 de enero de 2014, sólo la comunidad china creció en 2013 (3.549 ciudadanos más, un 2%) mientras que el resto de colectivos extranjeros se redujo, encabezados por británicos (87.880 menos), rumanos (74.745) y ecuatorianos (45.309).
According to statistics about the Padrón (city and town registration) from 1 January 2014 published by the INE today, only the Chinese community rose in number in 2013 (3,549 people, a 2% increase) whilst the other groups of foreigners reduced their numbers led by the British (87,880 less) Rumanians (74,745) and Ecuadorians (45,309).

Here's an article in English, but it doesn't quote the figure about the British. Maybe it will tomorrow
Spain losing more foreigners than ever | In English | EL PAÃ�S

Something people who are hoping to move to Spain might want to think about.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

I wonder how many of them actually de-registered during this last year, & how many had left over the past few years, & not de-registered?

local authorities have been checking up to see who's still around, as required by Madrid


I know my ayto & many others have been very pro-active in checking - even to the extent of sending police to addresses to see if anyone lives there

mostly they just sent out letters asking the occupier of the home to confirm their continued presence (or otherwise)


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

For those that are thinking about coming to Spain, I would just say, forget what others do. The vast majority of us have a great life here in this beautiful country.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

xabiachica said:


> I wonder how many of them actually de-registered during this last year, & how many had left over the past few years, & not de-registered?
> 
> local authorities have been checking up to see who's still around, as required by Madrid
> 
> ...


Both my OH and I got letters within the last 12 months asking us to reconfirm our details on the padron, which we did, but I haven't heard of any police checks being carried out in this area. It is the ones who have never signed on the padron or the foreigners' register who are skewing the figures, IMO.

I've heard the theory bandied about that a lot of British people have deregistered (but may or may not have actually left Spain). It would be interesting to see a cross-check done on all those Britons in Spain who receive the WFA this year, with the details on the register of foreigners here, wouldn't it? Shouldn't be too difficult if Governments are really committed to the exchange of information.

It's all very odd, though, because another story in the press today is about the increase for another month in the number of foreigners paying social security contributions - up by over 15,000 in March 2014.La Seguridad Social gana 15.201 afiliados extranjeros en marzo - elEconomista.es

If the traffic is supposed to be all the other way, where are all these extra contributors coming from?


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

Lynn R said:


> Both my OH and I got letters within the last 12 months asking us to reconfirm our details on the padron, which we did, but I haven't heard of any police checks being carried out in this area. It is the ones who have never signed on the padron or the foreigners' register who are skewing the figures, IMO.
> 
> I've heard the theory bandied about that a lot of British people have deregistered (but may or may not have actually left Spain). It would be interesting to see a cross-check done on all those Britons in Spain who receive the WFA this year, with the details on the register of foreigners here, wouldn't it? Shouldn't be too difficult if Governments are really committed to the exchange of information.
> 
> ...


Our Ayuntamiento in Alcaucin contacted us by email to ask us to confirm whether or not our details of the Padron were up to date, which they were.

Interesting thing about statistics, as Mark Twain said, facts are stubborn, but statistics are more pliable!


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Something else I meant to say is that I have never, but never, heard anybody I know who HAS moved back to the UK say that they were going to the Ayuntamiento or the Comisaria de Policia Nacional to notify them of their departure.

I wonder if all these checking-up exercises that have been going on have resulted in a large number of people who actually left years ago being removed from the padron all at once?

Btw, our letters from the Ayuntamiento about re-registering were hand delivered by one of their employees and had to be signed for.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Lynn R said:


> Both my OH and I got letters within the last 12 months asking us to reconfirm our details on the padron, which we did, but I haven't heard of any police checks being carried out in this area. It is the ones who have never signed on the padron or the foreigners' register who are skewing the figures, IMO.
> 
> I've heard the theory bandied about that a lot of British people have deregistered (but may or may not have actually left Spain). It would be interesting to see a cross-check done on all those Britons in Spain who receive the WFA this year, with the details on the register of foreigners here, wouldn't it? Shouldn't be too difficult if Governments are really committed to the exchange of information.
> 
> ...


yes I'm sure some _have _de-registered - & yes I'm sure some have left Spain & some are just hiding out!

there were definitely police checks in my town - our ayto has been sending these letters out for years to anyone they haven't 'heard from' for 5 years - & they will go to check up if they don't get a response from the letter, simply because they can't remove names form the padrón unless they know pretty much for sure

I totally agree that the figures are more than likely short on numbers - our ayto reckons that we're about 2 million euro a year down, due to those who live here but aren't registered - & since they own the water company they are checking up on water consumption  

a cross-check of the WFA sounds like a good idea  


as for the increase in foreigners starting to pay SS - I'm sure that's in no small way down to the low start payments available atm - & the fact that so many long term duckers & divers have discovered that it could actually be in their interest to go legal.....


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> I wonder how many of them actually de-registered during this last year, & how many had left over the past few years, & not de-registered?
> 
> local authorities have been checking up to see who's still around, as required by Madrid
> 
> ...


I'd be very surprised if these figures were correct, but I do believe they show a trend ie a lot of British people have left Spain. I think it's a useful exercise let's say, for those wanting to come here, to question why this is happening.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Lynn R said:


> Something else I meant to say is that I have never, but never, heard anybody I know who HAS moved back to the UK say that they were going to the Ayuntamiento or the Comisaria de Policia Nacional to notify them of their departure.
> 
> I wonder if all these checking-up exercises that have been going on have resulted in a large number of people who actually left years ago being removed from the padron all at once?
> 
> Btw, our letters from the Ayuntamiento about re-registering were hand delivered by one of their employees and had to be signed for.


My point exactly!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Aron said:


> For those that are thinking about coming to Spain, I would just say, forget what others do. The vast majority of us have a great life here in this beautiful country.


A lot of people who come on the forum are asking us, the people who live here, for information about living in Spain. *I totally agree that most of us are very happy living here,* but a lot of people who don't post on the forum have packed up and gone home. This is one way of pointing out to those not here that Spain atm has its problems. Amongst those 87,000 quoted here there must be a good measure of Brits who came with a dream that didn't work out, unfortunately for them, and for Spain.
As I said earlier, I don't for one minute think these figures are correct, but I'd bet that there is a large number of people who have left.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Lynn R said:


> Both my OH and I got letters within the last 12 months asking us to reconfirm our details on the padron, which we did, but I haven't heard of any police checks being carried out in this area. It is the ones who have never signed on the padron or the foreigners' register who are skewing the figures, IMO.
> 
> I've heard the theory bandied about that a lot of British people have deregistered (but may or may not have actually left Spain). It would be interesting to see a cross-check done on all those Britons in Spain who receive the WFA this year, with the details on the register of foreigners here, wouldn't it? Shouldn't be too difficult if Governments are really committed to the exchange of information.
> 
> ...


When I was looking for an article to post about this (I heard the report on the radio originally) there were a lot of conflicting numbers being reported. Maybe the foreigners registering are the Chinese whose numbers are up?In that article it does say


> 927.949 procedían de países de fuera de la Unión Europea


I've not been asked about being on the padron and nobody I know around here has, but I think it's a good idea.


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## Leper (May 12, 2010)

Whatever way we look at the situation the English speaking peoples are leaving Spain in quite large numbers. These figures probably are not as high as indicated in the Spanish Press. But, nontheless there are more leaving than arriving. 

You've made it in Spain, Congratulations! You are living in Spain and economically self sufficient, Congratulations again! But, there are many whose retreat to English speaking countries are left with nothing but bad memories. 

Many arrived in Spain full of ambition, hope, good-will and with a desire to 'make-it' and after huge efforts find themselves digging deeper and deeper into an incessant hole. Spanish business people who rent out their premises know only one thing:- Increase Rent, then increase it further. Some have their reasons some just ignore the reality of recession growing all around them. Mick-the-Brit tries and tries and suddenly finds himself drowned in increasing overheads, credit managers of suppliers on his case, a reduced customer base, rising family expenses etc etc.

There is no winner. The premises close with little home of re-opening with only the life of free newspapers being blown around the sand strewn terrace. Mick-the-Brit retreats to the UK hoping that his debts do not follow him.

Do you think Mick has informed the Spanish authorities that he has left? At this stage, Mick couldn't care less if Spain was engulfed in a tsunami of volcano lava. And who would blame him?


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> A lot of people who come on the forum are asking us, the people who live here, for information about living in Spain. *I totally agree that most of us are very happy living here,* but a lot of people who don't post on the forum have packed up and gone home. This is one way of pointing out to those not here that Spain atm has its problems. Amongst those 87,000 quoted here there must be a good measure of Brits who came with a dream that didn't work out, unfortunately for them, and for Spain.
> As I said earlier, I don't for one minute think these figures are correct, but I'd bet that there is a large number of people who have left.


Over the years there have been a lot of immigration throughout the EU. Many come and go but the vast majority stay. I personally have friends who have gone home. Most were for family reasons, missing grandchildren etc. I guess those embarking on a life here should be asking themselves that question. However, out of all the people I know from Nerja to Estepona, only a minority have left and gone back to the UK. Ido know a few others who came here to work, bought a house and now can't sell it. Having said that, I spoke to an expat builder the other day. He hasn't much work these days, but he said, even with all of the problems this country has, you can't beat the life style.
Life in Spain is a great life. I came to Spain for health reasons, I needed less stress. Since living in Spain my health has improved, I can live a better life on my pension than I could ever do in the UK. The weather is better, I love the relaxed way of life my Spanish neighbours have.
Anyone wishing to come to Spain or any other country in the world has to want to do it and they must do their research. If the figures suggested are correct, it means 10% of those coming to Spain went back to the UK, it also means 90% decided to stay.


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## Lolito (Aug 25, 2012)

Why do people assume that every single one of those British that have left Spain, had horribles and disgusting experiences in Spain?? There are lots of reason why people leave Spain, it doesn't need to be a bad thing. 

I only know 2 English people that have gone back to UK, one because her husband died and although she was very happy in Spain, she went back to be near her daughters and grandchildren. The other couple left because their only child had an accident and will need constant care.

...and both couples always said that the best times of their lives were spent in Spain. They were actually dreading going back to the UK.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Aron said:


> Over the years there have been a lot of immigration throughout the EU. Many come and go but the vast majority stay. I personally have friends who have gone home. Most were for family reasons, missing grandchildren etc. I guess those embarking on a life here should be asking themselves that question. However, out of all the people I know from Nerja to Estepona, only a minority have left and gone back to the UK. Ido know a few others who came here to work, bought a house and now can't sell it. Having said that, I spoke to an expat builder the other day. He hasn't much work these days, but he said, even with all of the problems this country has, you can't beat the life style.
> Life in Spain is a great life. I came to Spain for health reasons, I needed less stress. Since living in Spain my health has improved, I can live a better life on my pension than I could ever do in the UK. The weather is better, I love the relaxed way of life my Spanish neighbours have.
> Anyone wishing to come to Spain or any other country in the world has to want to do it and they must do their research. If the figures suggested are correct, it means 10% of those coming to Spain went back to the UK, it also means 90% decided to stay.


As with most things in life, it's generally down to money,or rather lack of.
People post here saying they are willing to accept low wages, long hours and job insecurity as they will have a 'better life'. I wonder what planet they are on.
Yes, some retired people go back to wherever because they miss their families or develop health problems and feel more secure being treated in their own language in their own country.
But I'd put money on the majority of returnees being those whose heads were full of tripe about fulfilling the 'dream', of a relaxed, laid- back lifestyle, ideas based on holidays in the sun and daft tv programmes like the unspeakably vulgar 'Benidorm'.
We see posts from these hopefuls occasionally....people who know it all before they get here then take offence when it's pointed out that Spain is in crisis and that the country isn't a huge adult playpen of endless sun and leisure. 
To be 'happy', most people need stability and security. These are precious commodities for many Spaniards, let alone for un or semi- skilled non- Spanish- speaking Northeners/guiris. This applies even more so where children are part of the plan.
Coming to live in Spain is a consumer choice and like all consumer choices is dependent on the ability to afford it. That might seem crude but it's the truth. It's not just about money either..it involves common sense, judgment, realism and the ability to distinguish how things are from how you would like them to be.
In other words, being 'grown- up'.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

An article in today's Independent, based on a survey, also suggests why Brits are leaving:



> Spain, the most popular EU destination for ex-pats, is losing its appeal. Last year 14,799 British citizens departed, as the total number of Britons living in Spain fell 3.7 percent to 383,093. Changes to tax laws affecting non-Spanish residents and the country’s 26 per cent unemployment rate have contributed to the decline.


Brits who migrate to Costa del Sol more unhappy than those who stay at home - Home News - UK - The Independent


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> An article in today's Independent, based on a survey, also suggests why Brits are leaving:
> 
> 
> 
> Brits who migrate to Costa del Sol more unhappy than those who stay at home - Home News - UK - The Independent


I saw that and thought it twaddle, tbh. Typical useless sociological 'research'.
The survey covered a minute number of returnees and didn't delve into much background detail, from what I read.
How on earth can you survey 'un(happiness) in any meaningful way
What constitutes happiness or it's opposite for you or me would, I suspect, be radically different from that of many other people.

Incidentally, what are these new tax laws affecting non- Spanish residents he witters on about??


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

mrypg9 said:


> As with most things in life, it's generally down to money,or rather lack of.
> People post here saying they are willing to accept low wages, long hours and job insecurity as they will have a 'better life'. I wonder what planet they are on.
> Yes, some retired people go back to wherever because they miss their families or develop health problems and feel more secure being treated in their own language in their own country.
> But I'd put money on the majority of returnees being those whose heads were full of tripe about fulfilling the 'dream', of a relaxed, laid- back lifestyle, ideas based on holidays in the sun and daft tv programmes like the unspeakably vulgar 'Benidorm'.
> ...


Agree 100%. I would add that IMO it also involves the ability to acknowledge and accept that many things will be very different from the way they were in your home country. You may not like some of them, but if you can't at least live with them then you will be too unhappy to stay here. So many people seem to constantly hark back to "we don't do it that way in the UK". No, we probably don't, but Spain isn't going to change for us so if whatever we don't like is a dealbreaker for us then we should leave rather than stay here and moan. 

It seems to me that a large percentage of the people who have that attitude are the same ones who complain that the British way of life is being altered and values lost because too many changes are being made to accommodate immigrants. That is never going to happen in a million years in Spain, and I rather admire them for it, although there are some things I would like to see changed myself.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Aron said:


> Over the years there have been a lot of immigration throughout the EU. Many come and go but the vast majority stay. I personally have friends who have gone home. Most were for family reasons, missing grandchildren etc. I guess those embarking on a life here should be asking themselves that question. However, out of all the people I know from Nerja to Estepona, only a minority have left and gone back to the UK. Ido know a few others who came here to work, bought a house and now can't sell it. Having said that, I spoke to an expat builder the other day. He hasn't much work these days, but he said, even with all of the problems this country has, you can't beat the life style.
> Life in Spain is a great life. I came to Spain for health reasons, I needed less stress. Since living in Spain my health has improved, I can live a better life on my pension than I could ever do in the UK. The weather is better, I love the relaxed way of life my Spanish neighbours have.
> Anyone wishing to come to Spain or any other country in the world has to want to do it and they must do their research. If the figures suggested are correct, it means 10% of those coming to Spain went back to the UK, it also means 90% decided to stay.


I don't know *anyone* who has left personally!
But my reality is very different from yours and yours is very different to xabiachica for example. The reason you have been able to make your life in Spain is very probably because you live on a pension, a pension that is still liveable despite the changes in the economy. Others have not been able to stay.
I came to a totally different Spain many years ago under completely different circumstances to yours and to young people coming today. I came to a job in the capital city which is also important, and remain employed today. I have also added to my "package" a Spanish husband, fluent Spanish and a house that is paid for. How many people wanting to come to Spain these days have that under their arm? Some do, but not many.
As I said at the beginning of this thread, all I pretend to do by posting this is to point people unfamiliar with Spain and its situation, towards news that contains food for thought, which does not in any way take away from the fact that many foreigners are living happy complete lives here


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

I have been here for nearly 4 years and have only been back to the UK for four hours. At the moment I have no intention of going back and any friends in the UK who are desperate to see me have to come here. We know of a few Brits who have returned to UK, none of whom have done so because of financial reasons, all for health or family reasons. We also are aware of a number of Brits who are new arrivals. But around here, the largest increase in ex-pats are from Sweden.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Lolito said:


> Why do people assume that every single one of those British that have left Spain, had horribles and disgusting experiences in Spain?? There are lots of reason why people leave Spain, it doesn't need to be a bad thing.
> 
> I only know 2 English people that have gone back to UK, one because her husband died and although she was very happy in Spain, she went back to be near her daughters and grandchildren. The other couple left because their only child had an accident and will need constant care.
> 
> ...and both couples always said that the best times of their lives were spent in Spain. They were actually dreading going back to the UK.


As far as I can see only one person has talked about British people having negative experiences here. The rest of us have not mentioned it or talked about positive experiences, so I'm a little bemused as to why you wrote this and Jimenato has "liked" it.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Having trouble quoting.
Will be back soon


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> But I'd put money on the majority of returnees being those whose heads were full of tripe about fulfilling the 'dream', of a relaxed, laid- back lifestyle, ideas based on holidays in the sun and daft tv programmes like the unspeakably vulgar 'Benidorm'.
> We see posts from these hopefuls occasionally....people who know it all before they get here then take offence when it's pointed out that Spain is in crisis and that the country isn't a huge adult playpen of endless sun and leisure.
> .


occasionally??!!


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## Fifimadrid (Apr 23, 2014)

Morning, I am the Spain correspondent for Daily Telegraph and on the back of latest statistics showing exodus of British expats from Spain I would like to speak to anyone that has left in the last year or is hoping to return to UK because their circumstances have changed. Please get in touch as soon as possible if you can share your story, my number is 667 805 669 many thanks


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Fifimadrid said:


> Morning, I am the Spain correspondent for Daily Telegraph and on the back of latest statistics showing exodus of British expats from Spain I would like to speak to anyone that has left in the last year or is hoping to return to UK because their circumstances have changed. Please get in touch as soon as possible if you can share your story, my number is 667 805 669 many thanks


I think you may find this post is removed or moved, but if you read this thread you will find that most people don't share the view that 87,000 Brits have suddenly moved, and that many move back or move on for health and family reasons so perhaps that should be included in your article


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> As far as I can see only one person has talked about British people having negative experiences here. The rest of us have not mentioned it or talked about positive experiences, so I'm a little bemused as to why you wrote this and Jimenato has "liked" it.


Because that was the only post I read and assumed some people had been negative. OOPS.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

jimenato said:


> Because that was the only post I read and assumed some people had been negative. OOPS.


Ayy Jimenato, what are we going to do with you ? 
Are you still here by the way?


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> As far as I can see only one person has talked about British people having negative experiences here. The rest of us have not mentioned it or talked about positive experiences, so I'm a little bemused as to why you wrote this and Jimenato has "liked" it.


The article in the Independent talked about Brits leaving because they weren't happy. 


> The new study mirrored a previous survey Dr Bartram conducted which found that money does not necessarily buy happiness for migrants coming to Britain. Those who came in search of better salaries often have exaggerated expectations of life here and end up disappointed.


But the survey sample was very small and not to be taken seriously IMO.

All the Brits I know who have returned to the UK in the past five years were over 60, missing their families and/or unable to cope with living in a foreign country and not being able to speak the language properly if they had to go into hospital, for example. Probably about 20 people in total; again, a very small sample. But I know plenty more who have moved here in that period and are very happy.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Incidentally, what are these new tax laws affecting non- Spanish residents he witters on about??


I'm guessing the overseas assets declaration, but I'm sure Extranjero will be along soon to confirm!


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Fifimadrid said:


> Morning, I am the Spain correspondent for Daily Telegraph and on the back of latest statistics showing exodus of British expats from Spain I would like to speak to anyone that has left in the last year or is hoping to return to UK because their circumstances have changed. Please get in touch as soon as possible if you can share your story, my number is 667 805 669 many thanks


Many of us feel that these statistics are flawed and the real number of British expats who have left in the last year is likely to be much smaller. The reason for the large number quoted is more likely to be that Ayuntamientos have been following up people during the last few years and requiring them to reconfirm their status on the padron, with a cut-off date to do so after which they would be removed from the records. As the majority of people don't deregister from the padron when they leave Spain, this exercise has most likely resulted in a large number of deletions having been made in a single year.

If you were so minded (and not just looking for "human interest" hard luck stories which help to sell newspapers) then a useful exercise would be to ask the DWP (perhaps by way of an FOI request) for the numbers of British people who had their State Pensions and WFA paid to Spanish bank accounts in both 2012 and 2013. If those figures don't show a corresponding sharp fall, then IMO that shows that the padron statistics are likely to be flawed, given that a very large percentage of British expats in Spain are retired people.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

A bit more on the Happiness Survey, this time from the Telegraph:



> Dr David Bartram, from Leicester University, examined the responses to surveys of 329 people who had moved from northern European countries, including the UK, to either Spain, Portugal, Greece or Cyprus.
> 
> He found that, when asked how happy they were on a scale of 1 to 10, the migrants scored an average of 7.3 compared to an average of 7.5 for 56,000 people surveyed living northern Europe.
> Dr Bartram, who will present his findings at the British Sociological Association’s annual conference in Leeds today (wed 23) said often people felt moving abroad would give them a better quality of life but in reality they struggled without family ties.
> ...


So people ranked their happiness on a scale of 1 to 10, which isn't a very reliable indicator especially on such a small sample. People are notoriously dishonest when filling in questionnaires. Also the difference between 7.3 and 7.5 is surely too small to be statistically significant?

If anyone wants to check how happy they are, you can find out here: Happiness Survey


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> The article in the Independent talked about Brits leaving because they weren't happy.
> 
> 
> But the survey sample was very small and not to be taken seriously IMO.
> ...


***


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

I wonder if the apparent drop in numbers in Valencioa has anything to do with stopping the cheats from using their EHICS for health-care.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> The article in the Independent talked about Brits leaving because they weren't happy.
> 
> 
> But the survey sample was very small and not to be taken seriously IMO.
> ...


The survey wasn't just about Brits, though., it included Scandinavians and we all know they're a gloomy lot of miserable sods anyway...think of all those Bergman films and Wallender books....


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## Roy C (Sep 29, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> As with most things in life, it's generally down to money,or rather lack of.
> People post here saying they are willing to accept low wages, long hours and job insecurity as they will have a 'better life'. I wonder what planet they are on.
> Yes, some retired people go back to wherever because they miss their families or develop health problems and feel more secure being treated in their own language in their own country.
> But I'd put money on the majority of returnees being those whose heads were full of tripe about fulfilling the 'dream', of a relaxed, laid- back lifestyle, ideas based on holidays in the sun and daft tv programmes like the unspeakably vulgar 'Benidorm'.
> ...



I think a lot of Brits etc who settle and live in Spain like yourself and the many others on this site go over there with eyes wide open and as with people like me going over there do their homework but obviously still get a lot of surprises. 

I would say the people that go over expecting the sun to shine every day, the streets to be paved with gold and that they are going to open up a bar that will take off and make them a fortune, must be largely in the minority. I just don't think people are that naive. Surely everybody today is aware of the job situation in Spain and many are also well aware of the bargains to be had in property which will no doubt help them to achieve a happier retirement, as in the property aspect than they could have envisaged previously. 

I say good luck to those who are currently there and have been there a long time and to those like me, do the research and go with your eyes wide open, not expecting to make a fortune and have enough finance in place to be self sufficient. You only live once.


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## Justina (Jan 25, 2013)

I reckon these type of studies are for upgrading the researcher's grades and have absolutely nothing to do with the so called ex pats.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Roy C said:


> I think a lot of Brits etc who settle and live in Spain like yourself and the many others on this site go over there with eyes wide open and as with people like me going over there do their homework but obviously still get a lot of surprises.
> 
> I would say the people that go over expecting the sun to shine every day, the streets to be paved with gold and that they are going to open up a bar that will take off and make them a fortune, must be largely in the minority. I just don't think people are that naive. Surely everybody today is aware of the job situation in Spain and many are also well aware of the bargains to be had in property which will no doubt help them to achieve a happier retirement, as in the property aspect than they could have envisaged previously.
> 
> I say good luck to those who are currently there and have been there a long time and to those like me, do the research and go with your eyes wide open, not expecting to make a fortune and have enough finance in place to be self sufficient. You only live once.


Yes, there are people who seem unaware of the 27% unemployment here, hard as it is to believe. Yes, they are a minority as are those who think Spain is El Dorado.
But they exist and probably form a substantial part of the small proportion of returnees.
It's so easy to move from one country to another these days, especially within Europe. That ease of movement can serve to minimise the scale of the practical problems that inevitably arise when you settle in a strange new place.
It's not so much that some people are naive as much as lulled into a false sense of security, thinking that things will be much like home, not reckoning with the intricacies and complexities of new tax systems,,bureaucracies and so on.
And of course there's a world ofdifference between moving to Spain for work, especially where children are involved, and retiring.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Yes, there are people who seem unaware of the 27% unemployment here, hard as it is to believe. Yes, they are a minority as are those who think Spain is El Dorado.
> But they exist and probably form a substantial part of the small proportion of returnees.
> It's so easy to move from one country to another these days, especially within Europe. That ease of movement can serve to minimise the scale of the practical problems that inevitably arise when you settle in a strange new place.
> It's not so much that some people are naive as much as lulled into a false sense of security, thinking that things will be much like home, not reckoning with the intricacies and complexities of new tax systems,,bureaucracies and so on.
> And of course there's a world ofdifference between moving to Spain for work, especially where children are involved, and retiring.


The trouble is so many just base their planning on two weeks on the costas in the sun after a cheapy flight and the bar where they spoke English and served nice tasty bites to eat with your drink at no extra charge.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Roy C said:


> I would say the people that go over expecting the sun to shine every day, the streets to be paved with gold and that they are going to open up a bar that will take off and make them a fortune, must be largely in the minority.


Yes, I think you're right. They get the most media attention because they are easy to find when journalists write articles about expat failures, being clustered in a small number of places on the Mediterranean coasts. The media helped fuel their dreams in the first place with those TV series like Place in the Sun, and now want to exploit the "human interest" aspect further by reporting on things that go horribly wrong.

There are plenty of immigrants living happily outside the "Brit-zone", many with Spanish partners, running rural B&Bs or walking holidays, teaching English, or just contentedly retired. But they never make the papers.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

I'm not sure you can refer to something as a 'Britzone'. Many inland towns and villages have very large percentages of immigrants compared to the indigenous. Ten Brits in our village would constitute 10% of the total. 
As for big cities like Madrid, Barcelona...I'm sure there are plenty of working immgrants there as well as retirees. I suppose they don't congregate in specific areas though.
Of course the Costas attract the majority of immigrants and why not? I love walkng on a deserted beach at dusk or sunset. But I don't live in a 'Britzone'. Five immigrants can create a ' Britzone' in a tiny pueblo where they will stick out like a sore thumb.
There was a set of statistics published last week which showed which towns had the highest percentage of Brits. Top of the list,was Orihuela. That rather surprised me. So of course there are places with a lot of Brits but I still wouldn't referto them as 'Britzones'.
Like the term 'real Spain' it could be construed - wrongly in your case, I know- as implying a suggestiion of undesirability, unauthenticity..rather like the lift of the eyebrows from a couple of my 'superior' friends when I mentioned the Costa del Sol.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I'm not sure you can refer to something as a 'Britzone'. Many inland towns and villages have very large percentages of immigrants compared to the indigenous. Ten Brits in our village would constitute 10% of the total.
> As for big cities like Madrid, Barcelona...I'm sure there are plenty of working immgrants there as well as retirees. I suppose they don't congregate in specific areas though.
> Of course the Costas attract the majority of immigrants and why not? I love walkng on a deserted beach at dusk or sunset. But I don't live in a 'Britzone'. Five immigrants can create a ' Britzone' in a tiny pueblo where they will stick out like a sore thumb.
> There was a set of statistics published last week which showed which towns had the highest percentage of Brits. Top of the list,was Orihuela. That rather surprised me. So of course there are places with a lot of Brits but I still wouldn't referto them as 'Britzones'.
> Like the term 'real Spain' it could be construed - wrongly in your case, I know- as implying a suggestiion of undesirability, unauthenticity..rather like the lift of the eyebrows from a couple of my 'superior' friends when I mentioned the Costa del Sol.


I think that what I would refer to as a "Britzone" is one where most things/everything appears to be made over to cater for the person who is there more for the sun, sand, sea and sangria than to be living in Spain, enjoying the feel and what it means to be living in the wonderful, diverse and interesting country. It is not so much the quantity or the quality of the incomers, it is more the fact that the place has been changed to suit their needs/wishes and the shallowness of it all. 

It is rather like the person who goes to "Paris" but never sees it outside of the environs of EuroDisney yet still claims that he/she has been to Paris.

Perhaps i am too discerning.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

So, what we said to fifimadrid (Journalist Fiona Govan) didn't stop the article from getting written! 
Has the sun set on the expat dream in Spain? - Telegraph
Some parts ring true, but it _*is*_ focussing on only those who have returned to the UK and not the thousands (maybe even the million) who remain, and it does erronously say that nearly 90,000 left last year when it is a figure that more likely refers to several years


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> So, what we said to fifimadrid (Journalist Fiona Govan) didn't stop the article from getting written!
> Has the sun set on the expat dream in Spain? - Telegraph
> Some parts ring true, but it _*is*_ focussing on only those who have returned to the UK and not the thousands (maybe even the million) who remain, and it does erronously say that nearly 90,000 left last year when it is a figure that more likely refers to several years


unfortunately she doesn't appear to have returned to the forum to join in

she had posted the same message previously & I moved it to 'media requests', suggesting she might like to join this discussion

seems that what I meant by 'join the discussion' & what she understood by it were worlds apart


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## Justina (Jan 25, 2013)

Well, xabiachica, she had an article to write and facts mustn't get in the way. It is quite obvious though, given the numbers of people who write into the forum each week, that these articles don't deter people. All in all, thank goodness for that.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> I think that what I would refer to as a "Britzone" is one where most things/everything appears to be made over to cater for the person who is there more for the sun, sand, sea and sangria than to be living in Spain, enjoying the feel and what it means to be living in the wonderful, diverse and interesting country. It is not so much the quantity or the quality of the incomers, it is more the fact that the place has been changed to suit their needs/wishes and the shallowness of it all.
> 
> It is rather like the person who goes to "Paris" but never sees it outside of the environs of EuroDisney yet still claims that he/she has been to Paris.
> 
> Perhaps i am too discerning.


Not sure about too discerning - patronising is a word that comes to mind  We all have different tastes and needs, and these people have as much right to enjoy their life in Spain as you or I do.

But yes, what I mean by the Brit-zones are the coastal strips in Valencia and Andalucia where you can comfortably survive without speaking Spanish because most of the local businesses and services operate in English.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Justina said:


> Well, xabiachica, she had an article to write and facts mustn't get in the way. It is quite obvious though, given the numbers of people who write into the forum each week, that these articles don't deter people. All in all, thank goodness for that.


Actually, she didn't write the article.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> I think that what I would refer to as a "Britzone" is one where most things/everything appears to be made over to cater for the person who is there more for the sun, sand, sea and sangria than to be living in Spain, enjoying the feel and what it means to be living in the wonderful, diverse and interesting country. It is not so much the quantity or the quality of the incomers, it is more the fact that the place has been changed to suit their needs/wishes and the shallowness of it all.
> 
> It is rather like the person who goes to "Paris" but never sees it outside of the environs of EuroDisney yet still claims that he/she has been to Paris.
> 
> Perhaps i am too discerning.


No, Baldy, Alca isright...that's patronising.
Sun, sea and sangria are very real features of Spanish life. They existed long before mass tourism. The beach wasn't invented by Thomson Holidays. I remember visiting the Costas in the mid- sixties. From Rosas to Cadiz the seaside towns were packed with holidaying Spaniards. I think you would be surprised at the number of Spaniards who choose Benidorm as a holiday destination, presumably because they enjoy sun, sea and sangria.

Itis really rather presumptuous to describe this as shallow', you know. I happen to very much enjoy a day on the beach myself, soaking up thesun and reading a book. 
Does the fact that the book may be Dostoevsky or Sartre make the experience less shallow? 

Living inland, in a village or small town gives you no more of an 'authentic' Spanish experience than living in Salou or Torremolinos. Itis merely a different experience and in no way more discerning or whatever adjective you'd care to use.
It's as phoney as the 'You are atourist, I am a traveller' shtick.

As you say, Spainis a vast, varied country. Itis Bilbao and Benidorm, Toledo and Torremolinos, Sitges and Salamanca. To appreciate Spain is to marvel at the variety. To pick out bits and label them as 'unauthentic' is a rather limited view.

I have travelled over most of Spain from north to south, east to west, decades before Alicante and Granada, to name buttwo places, developed into what they are now. It was my good fortune to get to know the Spain that has long disappeared. Nowhere remained untouched by some aspect of modernity.
Spain was very different then...but not 'better'. Or more 'authentic' , just different.
As were most places in the world.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Mary, you and Claire miss my point, I'm not saying that the sun, sea, sand and sangría are there purely because of the Brits or those of any other country, it is the way that the rest of the coastal strip gets changed to suit the desires of the tourist. It is rather like Southend seafront where it is full of bingo places, amusement arcades, pubs, etc., litter, noise and generally no pleasure to visit except in the depths of winter. 

What I am saying is that there are people who have based their decision to move to Spain on little more than that type of environment and that is being shallow.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Mary: Would you base your decision to move to a foreign country solely on: "I happen to very much enjoy a day on the beach myself, soaking up the sun and reading a book." ?


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> Mary, you and Claire miss my point, I'm not saying that the sun, sea, sand and sangría are there purely because of the Brits or those of any other country, it is the way that the rest of the coastal strip gets changed to suit the desires of the tourist. It is rather like Southend seafront where it is full of bingo places, amusement arcades, pubs, etc., litter, noise and generally no pleasure to visit except in the depths of winter.
> 
> What I am saying is that there are people who have based their decision to move to Spain on little more than that type of environment and that is being shallow.


No pleasure for US to visit, perhaps, but a lot of people love it like that.

It's sad that some beautiful (to our eyes) bits of coastline have been sacrificed to make way for mass tourism, but that was going to happen anyway - Franco and his mate Fraga were behind that. The expats who retired to the Costas en masse in the '90s and '00s were just taking advantage of the fact that their pensions would buy them a nice relaxed life in the sun.


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

baldilocks said:


> Mary, you and Claire miss my point, I'm not saying that the sun, sea, sand and sangría are there purely because of the Brits or those of any other country, it is the way that the rest of the coastal strip gets changed to suit the desires of the tourist. It is rather like Southend seafront where it is full of bingo places, amusement arcades, pubs, etc., litter, noise and generally no pleasure to visit except in the depths of winter.
> 
> What I am saying is that there are people who have based their decision to move to Spain on little more than that type of environment and that is being shallow.


You have a point because the Costa cel Sol at one time before tourism was known as the Costa Del Viento.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Tonight BBC 2 at 7.30 our time


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## Roy C (Sep 29, 2012)

I think Torre Del Mar is more of a Spanish resort then the ones west of Malaga. I'm watching that now, with eyes wide open. I think I'll change my name.


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

Roy C said:


> I think Torre Del Mar is more of a Spanish resort then the ones west of Malaga. I'm watching that now, with eyes wide open. I think I'll change my name.


I'll be in Torre del Mar tomorrow along with the Spanish, Brits and Germans doing our shopping. Torre del Mar is much more upmarket than it was 35 years ago. I love the place now. I would say it has more of a Spanish feel to it compared to the places west of Malaga where all our relatives live and work.


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## norman port (Feb 20, 2014)

Why would they leave, is the cost of living going up well above inflation?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> Tonight BBC 2 at 7.30 our time


a brilliant source of misinformation. Did you know that once you are resident you get your NIE and you take that along to the Health Centre and you get a doctor? Really?


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

People just don't seem to be able to join up the dots, do they?

I spotted an article on the DM online (I like to see what the opposition is saying) today going on about the amount the UK pays for healthcare for it's citizens abroad, compared to the paltry amount the NHS recovers from other countries for foreigners receiving treatment in Britain (which is their own fault for not doing it well enough).

Apparently the amount the UK pays to Spain for healthcare for British expats has now gone up to £230M. Now, if one in four British expats had upped and left Spain, that wouldn't be the case, would it, as the amount spent should have dropped by 25%.

Have the entire UK population lost the power of rational thought?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Lynn R said:


> People just don't seem to be able to join up the dots, do they?
> 
> I spotted an article on the DM online (I like to see what the opposition is saying) today going on about the amount the UK pays for healthcare for it's citizens abroad, compared to the paltry amount the NHS recovers from other countries for foreigners receiving treatment in Britain (which is their own fault for not doing it well enough).
> 
> ...


well certainly it would have dropped - but not by that much - the UK doesn't fork out for _*all *_Brits' healthcare you know!


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

xabiachica said:


> well certainly it would have dropped - but not by that much - the UK doesn't fork out for _*all *_Brits' healthcare you know!


No, I suppose not - they're not paying for mine (yet!). OK, make it 20% then.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> Mary, you and Claire miss my point, I'm not saying that the sun, sea, sand and sangría are there purely because of the Brits or those of any other country, it is the way that the rest of the coastal strip gets changed to suit the desires of the tourist. It is rather like Southend seafront where it is full of bingo places, amusement arcades, pubs, etc., litter, noise and generally no pleasure to visit except in the depths of winter.
> 
> What I am saying is that there are people who have based their decision to move to Spain on little more than that type of environment and that is being shallow.


Who decided that moving to that kind of environment is shallow, I wonder....that is a value judgment and imo a rather pretentious one, Baldy. Your life- style is no more discerning that that of the people you describe. There is no cultural or aesthetic superiority in choosing to live in a small town in Spain rather than, say Benidorm. There are tens of thousands of small towns all over Andalucia and the restof Spain, most of them nothing special, just......small towns.

As for changing to suit the desire of the 'tourist'. - presumably another shallow species fit only to guzzle hot dogs and gulp beer - pause for a moment and ponder on what you wrote. Of course these towns were adapted to the needs of tourists....It's how local people make their living. That's what businesses have to do to attract clients. Andalucia needs tourism even at the risk of offending the 'discerning'. It's a bit rich for an English person to decry the very activity, in many areas the only activity, that brings in money.

I lived in a lovely old country town in a rural part of England, in a cottage built before America was discovered. Very discerning by your standards. Now I live on the edge of arather uniquely unspoilt seaside village. I don't like big towns or brash seaside resorts but that doesn't make me or anyone a person of superior taste.

I'd also say that although I am very happy here and will not be going anywhere, Spain isn't the only 'special' place in the world....there are other countries I could happily settle in, Germany, Italy, France....but Spain isthe only country I've spent time in where some immigrants give themselves Brownie points because of where they choose to live.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

xabiachica said:


> well certainly it would have dropped - but not by that much - the UK doesn't fork out for _*all *_Brits' healthcare you know!


That's what I was going to say. And the money isn't a gift either....it represents a transfer of funds from the NHS, funds contributed towards by the recipient over the course of his/her working life.

I'm now receiving treatment here I would have had on the NHS in the UK. Judging by the mess this government has made of the NHS I've probably saved them money by being treated here...and receiving first- class treatment too...


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Who decided that moving to that kind of environment is shallow, I wonder....that is a value judgment and imo a rather pretentious one, Baldy. Your life- style is no more discerning that that of the people you describe. There is no cultural or aesthetic superiority in choosing to live in a small town in Spain rather than, say Benidorm. There are tens of thousands of small towns all over Andalucia and the restof Spain, most of them nothing special, just......small towns.
> 
> As for changing to suit the desire of the 'tourist'. - presumably another shallow species fit only to guzzle hot dogs and gulp beer - pause for a moment and ponder on what you wrote. Of course these towns were adapted to the needs of tourists....It's how local people make their living. That's what businesses have to do to attract clients. Andalucia needs tourism even at the risk of offending the 'discerning'. It's a bit rich for an English person to decry the very activity, in many areas the only activity, that brings in money.
> 
> ...


tourism is the life-blood of my town - yes we still have a fishing fleet, but very small & very minor in the scheme of things

also - 55% of the residents are non-Spanish nationals - it's not a Britzone exactly, though we are the largest minority & yes, it's perfectly possible to 'get by' without speaking Spanish (thankfully for me a lot _do_ want to learn the language though!) 

many of those working in the bars, restaurants & shops are multi-lingual - in Mercadona the staff have badges with flags on them indicating what languages they speak! 

I love it here - it's my home, the Spanish locals are on the whole very welcoming & accepting of all of us foreigners - some of whom live in their little 'brit bubble' as my daughter calls it - but by no means all or even most of us do that

Brits & other nationalities have been settling here for generations now, they've married into local Spanish families & have Spanish kids & grand kids


& whatever Baldi says - it IS 'real' Spain!

maybe it's how the future of Spain will look, too


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> but Spain isthe only country I've spent time in where some immigrants give themselves Brownie points because of where they choose to live.


I would *never* give myself "Brownie points" for anything because I know what "Brownie points" refers to, which, apparently, some people do not.


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## norman port (Feb 20, 2014)

Goldie,
Unfortunately, my experience was not quite as straight forward as you suggest. Nevertheless, shall give it another crack. The documents you mention I have registered already, the problem was the proof of income - UK form P60 not available. The new P.60 should be here shortly, ojala.

ps - I enjoy your comments - were you a school teacher!!!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> Maybe it's how the future of Spain will look, too


And England's too, hopefully ...


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

norman port said:


> Goldie,
> Unfortunately, my experience was not quite as straight forward as you suggest. Nevertheless, shall give it another crack. The documents you mention I have registered already, the problem was the proof of income - UK form P60 not available. The new P.60 should be here shortly, ojala.
> 
> ps - I enjoy your comments - were you a school teacher!!!


this is confusing me

you say that you have already registered certain documents - you do realise that you will have to start from scratch when you go to register again?

they will insist upon the documents being recent - usually less than 3 months old


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

norman port said:


> Goldie,
> Unfortunately, my experience was not quite as straight forward as you suggest. Nevertheless, shall give it another crack. The documents you mention I have registered already, the problem was the proof of income - UK form P60 not available. The new P.60 should be here shortly, ojala.
> 
> ps - I enjoy your comments - were you a school teacher!!!


OK I give up - Goldeneye hasn't posted on this thread - what documents are you referring to, what was straightforward for her & to which of her posts are you referring??


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

I'm packing my deckchair and suncream and heading for the beach, with a copy of a suitably intellectual tome, some jamon bocadillos and a bottle of good wine in the coolbox.....


Only joking, still feel like ****..

But thinking about tourism on the Costas....I think the Spanish have adapted well in catering for the different tastes of visitors of all nationalities, much better than the French, imo.
There is a place for everyone, from the in-your-face spots like Benidorm, Alicante, Torremolinos and parts of the Balearics to the traditional, quiet family-type seaside holiday, such as Estepona.
On the edge of our village is a smallish, attractive complex of holiday apartments, set in well-kept grounds and patronised almost exclusively by Spanish families plus a few French and it seems the occasional stray Brit who is usually flummoxed by the Spanishness of it all...entertainment is provided, rather like a middle-class Spanish Butlins, and of course it never starts before 11.00 p.m. and the games etc. are in Spanish, surprise, surprise!! We can hear the music in summer drifting on the night air and it's pleasant to see people strolling past our house with children, grannies, dogs....most stop and chat if they see us.
Which brings me on to another topic: no-one should think that you will only find neighbourliness in small towns and villages. Friends who live in towns tell me that they have really good Spanish friends and neighbours who are willing to help when needed and keep them supplied with produce and eggs from their fincas in the campo. 
Our friends/neighbours are really kind, good people. Not only do they keep us in fruit and veg in season as well as home-produced olive oil and eggs but they have told us that if we ever need help day or night we MUST call them. I have been sternly forbidden to have anything done to the LandRover before consulting Juan as 'women know nothing of these things'. 
Sexist twaddle but I should care, he saved me almost 100 euros when I needed a battery for the LandRover as well as rescuing me and a car full of stuff for the freezer when I broke down in Mercadona car park.
Neighbourliness is no way confined to pueblos.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> I'm packing my deckchair and suncream and heading for the beach, with a copy of a suitably intellectual tome, some jamon bocadillos and a bottle of good wine in the coolbox.....
> 
> 
> Only joking, still feel like ****..
> ...


Madrid and Bilbao, the two cities that I know well in Spain still function very much as "barrios" in some districts, which is almost like a village inside a city. Large numbers of people know each other, greet each other, chat, will share stuff brought from an allotment, or a special treat made at Christmas time etc (in my MIL's case it's the snails that are made for New Year's Eve). They know the local shop keepers if there are any and of course many will meet up in the local bar. Of course these are areas where there is still a high proportion of private dwellings to businesses, but I'm thinking of very central areas like Malasaña and Lavapiés.
But this is probably this is the same in parts of the UK too, isn't it???


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

mrypg9 said:


> I'm packing my deckchair and suncream and heading for the beach, with a copy of a suitably intellectual tome, some jamon bocadillos and a bottle of good wine in the coolbox.....
> 
> 
> Only joking, still feel like ****..
> ...


Very true, we live in a big town and find our neighbours very kind and helpful. I often say our particular area is like a village within a town, both in terms of the architecture (no blocks of flats which the centre of most large towns mainly seem to consist of, just a jumble of one, two or three storey houses) and the atmosphere.

Having "something for everybody" is one of the things I really like about Spain. Whatever kind of climate, lifestyle or facilities you want, you can find them here if you choose the right place for you.


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## norman port (Feb 20, 2014)

Xabiachica, my response to Baldilocks was incorrectly addressed to "goldie" : SORRY for the confusion caused. 
In Baldilock's discourse on the subject, it all sounded so very simple. My experience in Alta was completely the opposite and I wondered how long it has been since Baldi. was issued with his health papers.

I think I 've learnt where I went wrong and shall return to the "Costa" for another, better prepared, try.. If I must start from scratch again, "So be it"


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

norman port said:


> Xabiachica, my response to Baldilocks was incorrectly addressed to "goldie" : SORRY for the confusion caused.
> In Baldilock's discourse on the subject, it all sounded so very simple. My experience in Alta was completely the opposite and I wondered how long it has been since Baldi. was issued with his health papers.
> 
> I think I 've learnt where I went wrong and shall return to the "Costa" for another, better prepared, try.. If I must start from scratch again, "So be it"


I haven't a clue as to what you are talking about. Please advise post numbers


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> I haven't a clue as to what you are talking about. Please advise post numbers


or better yet ............. use the







button!


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

A year ago the DM online said 200,000 expats were leaving Spain because of the asset declaration. As it is only 87,000 that have left, do you think the other 113,000 may have realised that they made a mistake and returned to Spain!


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Aron said:


> A year ago the DM online said 200,000 expats were leaving Spain because of the asset declaration. As it is only 87,000 that have left, do you think the other 113,000 may have realised that they made a mistake and returned to Spain!


A few years ago, a money moving firm carried out a "survey" and published an advertorial with the headline "More than Half the British expats in Spain are going back to UK" This was picked up by several elements of the UK press who went ahead and published (after adding their own spin) without verifying or questioning the figures. 

The facts were:

The sample questioned was only 220 people
The correct statement was "When asked whether they were going to return to UK *more than half of those who responded* said they were thinking about it".
Only 40 responded of whom only 22 (a *tenth *of the original sample) and they were only considering it.

There was no indication of who comprised the original sample nor how representative it might have been of all Brits in Spain.


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## Justina (Jan 25, 2013)

I would never believe anything that the DM writes. I confess to reading it online but would never pay money for it.


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

Aron said:


> A year ago the DM online said 200,000 expats were leaving Spain because of the asset declaration. As it is only 87,000 that have left, do you think the other 113,000 may have realised that they made a mistake and returned to Spain!


I feel many have left because of IHT, 720 and tax in general. It's become so complex- ask 3 different accountants and get3 different answers.
Many however have probably not physically left Spain, just morphed into a non resident, while actually being a resident , often assisted by a dodgy gestor, though how they overcome problems like having to be residential in order to receive free healthcare, if a pensioner, I don't know, probably carry on cheating.


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

extranjero said:


> I feel many have left because of IHT, 720 and tax in general. It's become so complex- ask 3 different accountants and get3 different answers.
> Many however have probably not physically left Spain, just morphed into a non resident, while actually being a resident , often assisted by a dodgy gestor, though how they overcome problems like having to be residential in order to receive free healthcare, if a pensioner, I don't know, probably carry on cheating.


That's a conspiracy theory and often that's how figures become distorted!


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

Aron said:


> That's a conspiracy theory and often that's how figures become distorted!


It's a fact!


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

extranjero said:


> It's a fact!


"I feel many have left" and "many however have probably not physically left Spain" are not facts, they're suppositions.


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

extranjero said:


> I feel many have left because of IHT, 720 and tax in general. It's become so complex- ask 3 different accountants and get3 different answers.
> Many however have probably not physically left Spain, just morphed into a non resident, while actually being a resident , often assisted by a dodgy gestor, though how they overcome problems like having to be residential in order to receive free healthcare, if a pensioner, I don't know, probably carry on cheating.


That is not a fact, twice you used the word probably. How can probably be factual!


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

Aron said:


> That is not a fact, twice you used the word probably. How can probably be factual!


It's a fact in that I know it happens that residents have classed themselves as non residents.I can only assume what they do about their healthcare, once they become"non resident"


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Unless every single returnee to the UK from Spain is asked tp fill in a questionnaire giving detailed reasons as to why they left Spain, we will never know the truth so it's all speculation. They would have to be linked to a lie-detector too as few people would give true answers such as 'I found it too foreign' 'I thought it was too hot' 'The place was full of foreigners' or more likely than not, 'I came with a pulse and a passport, chasing a dream, I didn't have much money but I bought a house then I found the only work I could get was working all day cleaning pools for 5 euros an hour when I hoped I'd be lying in the sun with a can of San Miguel perched on my belly and a packet of B and H by my side'.

Seriously, extranjero, you do know some odd and dare I say it, rather dim people. I know of no-one who fits into the categories you describe. The few Brits I know well fill in tax returns, have dealt with Modelo 720 with no worries or hassle.
But I would describe them as intelligent, sensible people, most of whom lived and worked in other countries before coming to Spain.

There are people here who should never have been allowed out of the UK in the first place. Spain really is well rid of all these moaners and whiners. Never mind giving tests to incomers to the UK...people leaving should be given one.


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

People where I live are the same as people where you live, some intelligent and sensible, some not so.It's not a rule that everyone who moves to Spain must have got a degree in research, and lived in other countries before making a " wise" choice to move to Spain.
In your area, as well as mine are, honest, dishonest, intelligent, stupid people.Some will pay tax and dutifully submit 720, others work on the black, not pay tax, live under the radar, nip back to UK for Nhs treatment etc. you may think the circles you move in are full of intelligent ,law abiding folks, but you don't know- bet there's plenty of dim ones as well!
Spain isn't an exclusive club for those with huge pensions, though some might think so to read some of the posts.


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## norman port (Feb 20, 2014)

mryg9

Youhavenin,


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

norman port said:


> mryg9
> 
> Youhavenin,


:confused2:


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

An article in the Olive Press

Spain still number one for Brits looking to leave


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## norman port (Feb 20, 2014)

no comprendo ? please help :help:


xabiachica said:


> :confused2:


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

norman port said:


> no comprendo ? please help :help:


what don't you understand?


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## norman port (Feb 20, 2014)

Typing error - sorry. np


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## norman port (Feb 20, 2014)

I made a mistake and couldn't work out how to fix it - having problems with the key board.

Best, np


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

norman port said:


> I made a mistake and couldn't work out how to fix it - having problems with the key board.
> 
> Best, np


ahh - so would you like me to delete it & you can start again?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

extranjero said:


> People where I live are the same as people where you live, some intelligent and sensible, some not so.It's not a rule that everyone who moves to Spain must have got a degree in research, and lived in other countries before making a " wise" choice to move to Spain.
> In your area, as well as mine are, honest, dishonest, intelligent, stupid people.Some will pay tax and dutifully submit 720, others work on the black, not pay tax, live under the radar, nip back to UK for Nhs treatment etc. you may think the circles you move in are full of intelligent ,law abiding folks, but you don't know- bet there's plenty of dim ones as well!
> Spain isn't an exclusive club for those with huge pensions, though some might think so to read some of the posts.


You are speculating again, assuming that some people, no doubt including me, have what in your eyes are 'huge' pensions. 
To those that do have them, I'd say Good Luck to you. If I had a huge pension, I might choose to live somewhere fancy like a villa in Tuscany. 
Actually, the circles I move in are composed of intelligent, law-abiding folk. If they were otherwise I'd have nothing to do with them. I suppose I must have passed cheats, dimwits etc. in the street, we all do everywhere, not just in Spain.

As for having a degree in research or having experience of life in other countries....I don't recall anyone saying that was a sine quae non for moving to Spain or anywhere, for that matter.
What most of us say is that anyone wanting to leave the UK should at least do their homework before making the move. They should find out about taxation policies, the bureaucratic hoops they may have to go through, elementary stuff like that. They should also realise that the Spanish Government isn't going to tailor its fiscal policy with Brits in mind and that exchange rates fluctuate, sometimes quite violently.
All these things require common-sense, not a PhD. I personally would factor in things like possible future health problems...few get through to extreme old-age without some ailment. Buying a pretty finca in the campo miles from anywhere might be a brilliant idea when you're young and you have time to sell up when you get the age where it's no longer such a good idea. Buying a place like that when you are in your sixties may not be such a sensible plan.
I know there are people who through sheer misfortune have had to pack up businesses and sell houses at a loss to return to the UK. Having to care for an elderly relative often means a sudden and drastic change in plan. I have nothing but sympathy and understanding for such people. I'd be devastated if that happened to me.
But these people are in a different class from people who whinge, moan and see Spain as a vast conspiracy designed with one aim in mind, namely to rip them off and deprive them of their measly pensions. Every new tax measure, even those which are merely reporting requirements, is aimed at them. I've even overheard people moaning about the money 'wasted' on fiestas when it could be spent on cutting the grass verges outside their houses. 
I wouldn't claim that those who blame Spain for their failure instead of themselves are in a majority because they're not. But they exist. Maybe some of them are those who thought 'Life's too short, what the hell..'and leaped before looking properly. And they are the ones who go whining to the Daily Mail which just loves those stories about hard-done-by Brits on the Costas, not that they show any sympathy for those who go back destitute expecting benefits.

For most of us here, Spain is our home. We didn't come here expecting Paradise. Only a fool would do that. We left Prague because of my stupidity.....thinking that a place I got to know through decades of visits would be a good place to make a home in. It wasn't. I didn't think of just how different daily life would be, very different from staying with a friend who does the shopping, the cooking, the cleaning, takes you out on trips and to nice restaurants..as Jo always reminds us, life everywhere is about making the beds and cleaning the loo.

It's sad if people don't find their 'dream' in Spain. But the fact that for whatever reason a few feel the need to return to the UK doesn't alter the larger fact which is that 99% of us are happy, content and settled in your new home.

Even Alcalaina has hinted that she thinks thou dost complain too much and she's one of the most tolerant, easy-going posters on this Forum..
Enjoy!!.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Aron said:


> An article in the Olive Press
> 
> Spain still number one for Brits looking to leave


I've just read that article, typical of the most down-market of tabloid newspapers. The OP exists on advertising income (it is handed out free - nobody in his/her right mind would pay for it). The type of person to whom it caters is readily apparent when one looks at the comments. Even the headline is deceptive - they are saying that Spain is still the number one destination for people looking to leave UK not at all what is being indicated on this thread or even suggested that Spain is the No1 country with people looking to leave and go back to the UK or anywhere else.


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> You are speculating again, assuming that some people, no doubt including me, have what in your eyes are 'huge' pensions.
> To those that do have them, I'd say Good Luck to you. If I had a huge pension, I might choose to live somewhere fancy like a villa in Tuscany.
> Actually, the circles I move in are composed of intelligent, law-abiding folk. If they were otherwise I'd have nothing to do with them. I suppose I must have passed cheats, dimwits etc. in the street, we all do everywhere, not just in Spain.
> 
> ...


Surely it is you who is speculating- how do you know that 99 per cent are happy?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

extranjero said:


> Surely it is you who is speculating- how do you know that 99 per cent are happy?


I was referring to posters on this forum and we are nearly all a happy, settled contented bunch. 
I don't have any friends who are unhappy here. 
If people are unhappy it must surely be that life in Spain did not match their expectations.
Then the only sensible course is to cut their losses and go home.
We were unhappy in Prague so we moved.


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## Roy C (Sep 29, 2012)

Reading this thread I'm sort of laughing at what sort of perception people will have of us when we arrive next year. 
I'll get a tee shirt saying, I don't read The Sun or Mail. I am learning Spanish. I don't want to buy a bar. I don't like Blackpool, Southend or Brighton and I like Spanish food. Please dont stereo type me and judge me on what I say and do not anybody else with a similar accent.


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## Chavarrias (Apr 27, 2014)

Many of the foreign residents that have left in fact just stopped counting as foreign national after gaining citizenship. That is why there has been a rise in the population of Spanish citizens, since the birth rate in Spain is still insufficient for population growth.

As it happens in the UK, in Spain many foreign residents are not registered in their consulates therefore may appear invisible in charts and statistics.


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## Chavarrias (Apr 27, 2014)

Roy C said:


> Reading this thread I'm sort of laughing at what sort of perception people will have of us when we arrive next year.
> I'll get a tee shirt saying, I don't read The Sun or Mail. I am learning Spanish. I don't want to buy a bar. I don't like Blackpool, Southend or Brighton and I like Spanish food. Please dont stereo type me and judge me on what I say and do not anybody else with a similar accent.


I'm sure Spaniards will like you for who you are . For all their character flaws Spaniards are (as a society) at least, good judges of character.


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## Roy C (Sep 29, 2012)

Chavarrias said:


> I'm sure Spaniards will like you for who you are . For all their character flaws Spaniards are (as a society) at least, good judges of character.


I agree but it wasn't really the Spanish I was thinking about.


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## Roy C (Sep 29, 2012)

How can I edit a typo? I see the edit button on this thread but not my previous thread, is there a time limit to edit?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Roy C said:


> How can I edit a typo? I see the edit button on this thread but not my previous thread, is there a time limit to edit?


Yes, it lasts for about 5 minutes, I think.

w.r.t. Southend or Sarfend, having been born and brought up a mere 5 miles away, once I discovered that there were other places, I couldn't wait to get away and, in fact, I hate the seaside and all that it entails, hence I live inland


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> Yes, it lasts for about 5 minutes, I think.
> 
> w.r.t. Southend or Sarfend, having been born and brought up a mere 5 miles away, once I discovered that there were other places, I couldn't wait to get away and, in fact, I hate the seaside and all that it entails, hence I live inland


I love being on the coast. Until I left home to go to uni I saw the sea every day. Now I can see it from my bedroom window.
But I don't like big, noisy seaside places. My beach is unspoilt, quiet, usually deserted.
So in reply to your earlier post, Baldy, yes, being in a place where I can spend a peaceful day with in book, recumbent in a deckchair on a quiet beach, was a factor in deciding where to live.
After three years in a landlocked country it was a mental release, being right on the coast. This sounds daft and probably is but some Czech characteristics such as being tribal, non- receptive to change, I put down to not having a coast.
It's interesting that in contrast to Poles, few Czechs have taken advantage of EU free movement to seek work elsewhere in Europe.


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

baldilocks said:


> I've just read that article, typical of the most down-market of tabloid newspapers. The OP exists on advertising income (it is handed out free - nobody in his/her right mind would pay for it). The type of person to whom it caters is readily apparent when one looks at the comments. Even the headline is deceptive - they are saying that Spain is still the number one destination for people looking to leave UK not at all what is being indicated on this thread or even suggested that Spain is the No1 country with people looking to leave and go back to the UK or anywhere else.


It was interesting in the fact, that on the online page of the OP, that article was next to the article about 90,000 expats leaving.
I rarely read newspapers of any kind. Much of what you read is stuff that will sell, it does not necessarily need to be factual. I rarely watch the news on TV unless there is something specific I need to know.
As for people leaving Spain, I have no idea. Perhaps somewhere there is an area that nobody cares for. In the past two years our village has become very busy on a daily basis. There is a lot of work going on and there are more British residents about. I can only judge the situation from that and from the fact, only a handful of my circle of friends and relatives have gone back to the UK. I do know several people who have sold up and moved elsewhere in Spain.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

norman port said:


> mryg9
> 
> Youhavenin,





norman port said:


> no comprendo ? please help :help:





norman port said:


> Xabiachica, my response to Baldilocks was incorrectly addressed to "goldie" : SORRY for the confusion caused.
> In Baldilock's discourse on the subject, it all sounded so very simple. My experience in Alta was completely the opposite and I wondered how long it has been since Baldi. was issued with his health papers.
> 
> I think I 've learnt where I went wrong and shall return to the "Costa" for another, better prepared, try.. If I must start from scratch again, "So be it"


Hi Norman,
there seems to be a lot of confusion here. I think you may have even mixed up some threads, so perhaps it would be better to read through this one again. Don't forget to use the REPLY icon as it makes it much easier to follow the conversation


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Hi Norman,
> there seems to be a lot of confusion here. I think you may have even mixed up some threads, so perhaps it would be better to read through this one again. Don't forget to use the REPLY icon as it makes it much easier to follow the conversation


That's the "Reply with quote" that's the button near the bottom, not just "Reply" at the top


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Aron said:


> It was interesting in the fact, that on the online page of the OP, that article was next to the article about 90,000 expats leaving.
> I rarely read newspapers of any kind. Much of what you read is stuff that will sell, it does not necessarily need to be factual. I rarely watch the news on TV unless there is something specific I need to know.
> As for people leaving Spain, I have no idea. Perhaps somewhere there is an area that nobody cares for. In the past two years our village has become very busy on a daily basis. There is a lot of work going on and there are more British residents about. I can only judge the situation from that and from the fact, only a handful of my circle of friends and relatives have gone back to the UK. I do know several people who have sold up and moved elsewhere in Spain.


This has got to be one of the most confusing threads ever, for me at least . I couldn't make out what you and Baldi were talking about until I realised that OP was Olive Press and not Original Poster = me!


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

mrypg9 said:


> I love being on the coast. Until I left home to go to uni I saw the sea every day. Now I can see it from my bedroom window.
> But I don't like big, noisy seaside places. My beach is unspoilt, quiet, usually deserted.
> So in reply to your earlier post, Baldy, yes, being in a place where I can spend a peaceful day with in book, recumbent in a deckchair on a quiet beach, was a factor in deciding where to live.
> After three years in a landlocked country it was a mental release, being right on the coast. This sounds daft and probably is but some Czech characteristics such as being tribal, non- receptive to change, I put down to not having a coast.
> It's interesting that in contrast to Poles, few Czechs have taken advantage of EU free movement to seek work elsewhere in Europe.


I wanted to be near the coast (because the temperatures are cooler in summer and warmer in winter than further inland), but not right on it (don't like the streets, roads, shops, etc. being too crowded in the summer nor that rather forlorn air some resort towns have in the winter months, and of course property prices once you move away from the coast are lower, which did matter to me). I like being close enough to go to a beach when I want to, but not to lie on it or swim in the sea (which I've never once done since coming to Spain). I loathe sand, even as a child when taken to the beach I used to cry and say it made me itch, which it still does. I do like a long walk beside the sea, though.

In my particular area, the British of working age nearly all packed up and left 4/5 years ago, well before these latest articles were written. People still leave now, but for the same reasons they always did. Last year, the British population known to me personally reduced by 3 - one died (her widower has stayed here) and one elderly couple have gone back as they were in increasingly poor health and wanted to be near their children. Unfortunately their house has still not sold, but to some extent the reason for that has been in their own hands. They originally put it on the market for a high price for the area, and refused an offer at least 4 years ago for a price which was just over 50% higher than they have now reduced the asking price to. I bet they wished they'd acted differently now. They're not homeless, however, but have rented a retirement apartment where by all accounts they're happily settled.


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> This has got to be one of the most confusing threads ever, for me at least . I couldn't make out what you and Baldi were talking about until I realised that OP was Olive Press and not Original Poster = me!


It's rare for me to use text language as much of what people write is beyond me. I must admit that when I wrote OP I hoped that it wouldn't read as the other person, never thought of original poster. The only other time I have ever used OP was whilst playing Scrabble!
I promise never to use text language again.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Aron said:


> It's rare for me to use text language as much of what people write is beyond me. I must admit that when I wrote OP I hoped that it wouldn't read as the other person, never thought of original poster. The only other time I have ever used OP was whilst playing Scrabble!
> I promise never to use text language again.


Never mind Aron, not important


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Lynn R said:


> I wanted to be near the coast (because the temperatures are cooler in summer and warmer in winter than further inland), but not right on it (don't like the streets, roads, shops, etc. being too crowded in the summer nor that rather forlorn air some resort towns have in the winter months, and of course property prices once you move away from the coast are lower, which did matter to me). I like being close enough to go to a beach when I want to, but not to lie on it or swim in the sea (which I've never once done since coming to Spain). I loathe sand, even as a child when taken to the beach I used to cry and say it made me itch, which it still does. I do like a long walk beside the sea, though.
> 
> In my particular area, the British of working age nearly all packed up and left 4/5 years ago, well before these latest articles were written. People still leave now, but for the same reasons they always did. Last year, the British population known to me personally reduced by 3 - one died (her widower has stayed here) and one elderly couple have gone back as they were in increasingly poor health and wanted to be near their children. Unfortunately their house has still not sold, but to some extent the reason for that has been in their own hands. They originally put it on the market for a high price for the area, and refused an offer at least 4 years ago for a price which was just over 50% higher than they have now reduced the asking price to. I bet they wished they'd acted differently now. They're not homeless, however, but have rented a retirement apartment where by all accounts they're happily settled.


It takes me twenty minutes at most to walk to our beach...if I drive it's about ten. Our village isn't directly on the beach and there is fortunately no road that goes past it or leads directly to it. To get to it we walk down a leafy gravelly lane. It's never crowded, usually even in the height of summer you'll see at most four or five families. I don't know why this is so but I'm rather pleased as I love the quiet of it. Maybe it's because it's not that easy to get to by car and because there are few amenities.
I love it. From our top terrace and from the hill outside our house we can clearly see the Moroccan coast and Gibraltar which to me is always nicer seen from afar than visited.
I was trying to think of people I'd call friends who've left but can't think of anyone. I know of a woman I sold a car to, a cheerful but somewhat feckless soul who moved with her young daughter from piso to piso, never paying rent and with a succession of boyfriends...
I have a friend who put her house on the market, said she must have 500k euros 'in her hand', called it a day when she had no offers and is now happily resigned to stayng here. Another friend lives with her older and frail husband in a large house, wishes they had sold and moved into a rented piso but now realises it's too late...But she has no wish to leave Spain.
I don't know anyone who is worried about tax or future starvation......


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