# Buying or Renting a property



## seasideman (Nov 8, 2015)

This is two questions into one.

I am moving to Spain in August 2016 with my wife. Will be renting to begin with but we have a difference of opinion. My wife wants to only rent, she does not want to buy, but I want to buy after a year of being there.

I was brought up to believe renting was throwing money away whereas buying was an investment but she does not agree. I also believe buying gives you security where renting you could find yourself moving every five years.

A lot of people have said on these forums do not buy and I would like to explore that and find out why.

Also, should you sell your property in the UK

Again we are split on this. My wife wants us to sell the property where I want to keep it on and rent it out. The rent would cover the mortgage so we would not make any income from it. 

She believes we should sell it and put the money in a spanish bank and let it gain interest but i have said, having a property in the UK gives us a safety net and an investment. Would love to hear what people think


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

There are pluses and minuses for both options.

It's generally agreed prices have flattened out so now could be a good time to buy a home which in 5/10 years time may not be affordable 

On the other hand just renting leaves you an easy escape back home should things not work out.

My wife changes our view almost daily on which way forward would be best for us


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## seasideman (Nov 8, 2015)

Rabbitcat said:


> There are pluses and minuses for both options.
> 
> It's generally agreed prices have flattened out so now could be a good time to buy a home which in 5/10 years time may not be affordable
> 
> ...


I think my problem is I am old school. Was always brought up to believe you should own your own home.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

I know what you mean. I always looked on renting as lost money but it's about leaving options open when moving abroad


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

We had a property in the U.K. 

Being out here most of the time, our bungalow became too much of a worry, so we got rid.

Renting it out was not an option we considered, too many close friends and family rented theirs and had bad experiences with the tenants.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

seasideman said:


> This is two questions into one.
> 
> I am moving to Spain in August 2016 with my wife. Will be renting to begin with but we have a difference of opinion. My wife wants to only rent, she does not want to buy, but I want to buy after a year of being there.
> 
> ...


Personally I think it's really quite simple but then I'm not you (or your wife).

See my comments above.

If I had my time again and I didn't have a young family, then I would rent and keep moving 'till I found somewhere I wanted to stay for a long time. I would also have kept a house in UK as a bolt hole or as an investment.


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## seasideman (Nov 8, 2015)

snikpoh said:


> Personally I think it's really quite simple but then I'm not you (or your wife).
> 
> See my comments above.
> 
> If I had my time again and I didn't have a young family, then I would rent and keep moving 'till I found somewhere I wanted to stay for a long time. I would also have kept a house in UK as a bolt hole or as an investment.


That is perfect, exactly what I think. It will grow in value. Better than just having the sale of the property stuck in an account. At least by renting it out we are getting an investment. thank you


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

seasideman said:


> That is perfect, exactly what I think. It will grow in value. Better than just having the sale of the property stuck in an account. At least by renting it out we are getting an investment. thank you


Or the other option is sell, take professional advice and invest the proceeds, this also can be quite lucrative.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Rabbitcat said:


> I know what you mean. I always looked on renting as lost money but it's about leaving options open when moving abroad


That dead money could be negated by renting out a UK property and dont forget the costs of buying and if necessary selling in Spain isnt cheap

Jo xxx


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

So much depends on the degree of research you do and whether you are 100% certain that where you decide to live is really the right place for you, whether it be in Uk, Spain or Outer Mongolia. Many of my colleagues advocate renting in case you don't like it in that place new and want to move elsewhere. When we came back from South America in 1990, we rented a flat because we wanted somewhere quickly. A year later the landlady wanted to increase the rent by 10%. We decided to buy our own flat.

That was hard because mortgage interest rates, although they had come down a bit, were still at 11% We sold that flat in 2008 and moved to Spain. What we got for the flat was enough to clear the mortgage (which we had extended several times) and pay for our house here (much more property for one's money - we went from a 1BR flat to a 5BR house,) the costs of moving, and a modest second hand car.

We had thoroughly researched and knew what we wanted and where to find it. We have been here 7 years now and are 100% confident that we made the right decisions even to the extent that we have made a number of modifications to the house, had it re-roofed, etc. This is our permanent home.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Like Baldilocks says - research is the key.

We return on our next series of exploration / info gathering visits in Jan. We have narrowed down the general area where we fancy ( that has taken 7 trips so far!!) but still long way to go. We are still not 100% on the biggy of rent v purchase yet, so many more trips ahead


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## seasideman (Nov 8, 2015)

We know that part of Spain, so that is not the problem, but we are arranging a number of trips with the first one in Jan. We be going over around 7 times before we move full time. My wife is different from me. I am the sensible one, she just wants to get over there and not to come back, but i am always looking at every option


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

I know exactly what you mean.

We are in a good position but things are never straightforward . I am early retired at 47, am now 52 and wifey lot younger. She still works but we can sell up and move abroad with neither of us needing to work.

Getting wifey finished with work is my priority. But she's the smart, intelligent sensible tyoe and even though we have experience of property abroad for almost 11 years-our research will still be very thorough before she quits work and we move to Spain


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Many recent threads have treated the same subject. Look here for some examples
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...g-spain/789610-eternal-debate-buy-v-rent.html

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/spain-expat-forum-expats-living-spain/705682-rent-v-buy.html


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## WeeScottie (Mar 17, 2015)

We've bought with the view that we will retire here in a few years. Currently using as a holiday home and really enjoying doing it up and making it our home. With cheap flights I'm out every 4 weeks or so. Buying has worked for us but I can see both sides. I love the fact that as soon as I walk in the door I'm home surrounded by my own bits and pieces.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

WeeScottie said:


> We've bought with the view that we will retire here in a few years. Currently using as a holiday home and really enjoying doing it up and making it our home. With cheap flights I'm out every 4 weeks or so. Buying has worked for us but I can see both sides. I love the fact that as soon as I walk in the door I'm home surrounded by my own bits and pieces.


That is exactly what we did, and have never regretted it, but as Baldilocks says you need to be 100% sure that it is the right place for you and all your needs.

However, both you and I were going to be coming here to retire (I would have loved to move over sooner but was determined to make sure that once here our funds would be enough to support us for the 8 years before most of our pensions became payable, so that we would not have to work). I do think that there is more uncertainty involved if people are going to be moving over and working, as to whether it will work out for them, so perhaps renting would be a better option at least for the first few years to make sure things are satisfactory from a financial point of view. As Jo said, if you find later on that you need to move back or just want to move to a different area, the costs of buying and selling property are very high in Spain and there isn't likely to be much capital appreciation to offset those costs.


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## Kchq (Sep 27, 2015)

Hi Rabbitcat,
January will be our first exploration visit taking 3 weeks, how long do you think we should stay in each area, were coming into Malaga and then intending to head east along Torrox, Almeria area and possibly up towards Murcia. Any recommendations along the way. We're spending a few days in La Herradura area for my 50th.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

We were in that area Axarquia earlier this year.
There's a great variety so you do need a bit of time. 

You have gorgeous picturesque villages like Frigiliana, Torrix Pueblo etc right across to the village we stayed in Canillas de Albaida/ Competa area.

Then along the coast you have the larger ( but still very manageable ) coastal town of Nerja ( beautiful little sought after Maro is nearby) 

For those looking something much bigger yet still very pretty with great architecture and old town- Velez - Malaga

Honestly you cannot go wrong in that region. 

I would suggest you decide on the size/ type of town/ village you want and then explore accordingly


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## Kchq (Sep 27, 2015)

Thanks for the info, sounds like an idea to stay around that area for this trip and maybe do other regions in further trips. We'll probably only ever do winters in Spain so I believe the Axarquia area is one of the driest/warmest at that time. Can't wait for our trip, it's blowing 60mph winds and torrential rain here on west coast Scotland this morning.
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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

I absolutely adored that region and would have opted for a house there no probs.
Luckily my wife pointed out that I didn't like that area and she decided we both love the Valencian area of the Jalon Valley.

Again drop dead gorgeous sleepy villages as well as amazing access to breathtaking large towns like Denia, Javea etc.

You will have a great time searching, we certainly are and have trips number 8 and 9 already booked for early 2016


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

I had always owned the house I lived in from my early twenties. I bought properties in the UK and Canada and rented them out. When we left the UK ten years ago we sold our properties, business premises as well and invested the money.
We moved first to Prague where after a short time in a rented apartment we loved to a very large rented house with extensive landscaped grounds and covered in ground heated swimming pool. It was our intention at that time to stay there for several years. 
After three years my partner decided that Prague was not for her so we moved on to Spain where my son has property. All it took for us to move was a call to a removal firm, no house to have to sell.
We moved into a flat in Spain, not to our liking ...so we moved to this rented house with pool where we have been for seven years and where we will stay for a few more years. We have a very good landlord and he knows he has very good tenants.
We now own no property at all , just our furniture, china, etc. and as a consequence have no worries about repairs, maintenance, moving on should we wish...We can do as we wish with the house, paint it, put up pictures.. We have our own furniture we have had for years in the UK, our own pictures, ornaments etc...
My income pays the rent and we are earning nicely on the capital from the various property sales. We don't see this as money handed over to landlords/wasted as most people buy property with loans/mortgages and end up handing over vast sums in interest to banks and financial institutions. We didn't want to keep the UK properties and rent them as frankly if you rent legally -pay taxes on your rental income -plus management fees and maintenance costs it's too much hassle. We knew the day we left the UK we wouldn't be returning to live there ever.
We know people here who bought houses and now want desperately to move either to town from the campo or into smaller properties for either health or financial reasons. They can't find buyers so they are stuck. We can give a month's notice should we wish to move.
My son already has a house here he hardly uses so leaving him another one would be a nuisance to him.
So in our situation renting makes perfect sense. Tbh, if I were starting over again in the UK I think I'd rent and invest money elsewhere rather than buying. Buying with a mortgage means tying your capital to an asset the value of which can fluctuate -the dreaded negative equity - plus you are paying interest for decades on that asset.
Having capital is also important here imo in that if by misfortune you end up needing care you will be able to afford quality nursing and other care as the state system offers very little, as a friend whose husband had a stroke last month has found out.
They have a piso in the campo, she can't drive and now is responsible 100% for his care. She relies on friends.


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## Leper (May 12, 2010)

OK Seasideman, you are making some dreadful mistakes (unless you have the luck of picking out winning lotto jackpot numbers).
1. Have a look at the 100,000 posts or so regarding Renting -V- Buying on this forum. You will learn that you should rent until you have found your dream location, road, residence etc.
2. Moving in August is where you will pay through the nose because it is high holiday season.
3. You are old school and your wife is new school. Sounds like pistols at dawn?
4. If you own property in the UK, I think you should hold on to it until you are well settled in Spain. Don't burn your boats and leave room for a dignified retreat if necessary.
5. It is not clear if you are seeking employment in Spain. If so, stop now; you don't have a snowball's . . . 
6. If you have any doubt about your situation, live in Spain off season for no less than six weeks. You will learn more during this period than you have had all your life of thinking of the move.

Best of Luck.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Leper said:


> OK Seasideman, you are making some dreadful mistakes (unless you have the luck of picking out winning lotto jackpot numbers).
> 1. Have a look at the 100,000 posts or so regarding Renting -V- Buying on this forum. You will learn that you should rent until you have found your dream location, road, residence etc.
> 2. Moving in August is where you will pay through the nose because it is high holiday season.
> 3. You are old school and your wife is new school. Sounds like pistols at dawn?
> ...


And that is a landlord's point of view. 

There are others of us who did our preparatory work properly and bought right from the start because we knew where we wanted to be and we knew what property we wanted, we didn't waste maybe 3000 €uros (6 months at 500€) and still not have a place of our own, just to keep a landlord happy.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

baldilocks said:


> And that is a landlord's point of view.
> 
> There are others of us who did our preparatory work properly and bought right from the start because we knew where we wanted to be and we knew what property we wanted, we didn't waste maybe 3000 €uros (6 months at 500€) and still not have a place of our own, just to keep a landlord happy.



It worked for you, but for many people the only true research is to try it initially without making financial commitments which might be hard to undo. Any rental costs can be easily negated by renting out a UK property. When we rented in Spain, the rental we received from our UK house more than covered the rent, bills and school fees in Spain...........until the exchange rate plummeted 

Jo xxx


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

jojo said:


> It worked for you, but for many people the only true research is to try it initially without making financial commitments which might be hard to undo. Any rental costs can be easily negated by renting out a UK property. When we rented in Spain, the rental we received from our UK house more than covered the rent, bills and school fees in Spain...........until the exchange rate plummeted
> 
> Jo xxx


But again, Jo, what worked for you wouldn't have worked for everybody. Even before the exchange rate plummeted, the rental on the house I owned in the North West of England, after tax and expenses, certainly wouldn't have covered the rent in Spain, let alone bills or anything else. You are speaking from the perspective of owning a property in the South where rents are much higher.

And, incidentally, the house I sold in October 2006 has not increased in value at all since that time, so I have not missed out on any capital appreciation either.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Lynn R said:


> But again, Jo, what worked for you wouldn't have worked for everybody. Even before the exchange rate plummeted, the rental on the house I owned in the North West of England, after tax and expenses, certainly wouldn't have covered the rent in Spain, let alone bills or anything else. You are speaking from the perspective of owning a property in the South where rents are much higher.


Exactly, what works for one, doesnt necessarily work for everyone. 

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

When you buy with a loan/ mortgage you are effectively renting from the bank/ mortgage company until you have paid the last instalment.
So if you rent you give money to a landlord in return for enjoying the right to live in a property, if you buy you pay interest to the bank.
For many people, their house is not only their dwelling but their savings plan or pension pot which has to be sold at current market value which may or may not be what they had hoped for.
We could afford to buy a property tomorrow if we wished but we can see not a single reason why this would be a good idea for a couple in our situation.
It's horses for courses. The UK is famous for its obsession with home ownership but fewer people are now able to buy without committing an unreasonable percentage of their income.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

seasideman said:


> This is two questions into one.
> 
> I am moving to Spain in August 2016 with my wife. Will be renting to begin with but we have a difference of opinion. My wife wants to only rent, she does not want to buy, but I want to buy after a year of being there.
> 
> ...


Hey Op,

My point of view is that at this point in time, Spain is not the place to buy a property for investment purposes. The cost of acquisition and disposal (taxes and agents' fees) are so high that you would have to see quite a good appreciation in price before you actually start to make any money. And about "making money" on property. If it's your primary residence and you need it to live in, then you won't be selling it, and therefore won't see any of that money you make.

If you keep your property in the UK, and in my view that would be a wise thing to do if it is in any way possible, then you end up owning something that somebody else has paid for (the people paying the rent). There are things to watch out for though. If you are full time resident in Spain when you come to sell it, it will be regarded as a second home (your Spanish home will be considered your main residence) and CGT will be payable.

In my view the only reason to buy in Spain is if you find a property you love that you want to modify to suit your needs and you don't want a landlord to ever move you on.

Finally, your wife's idea about selling the UK house and putting the money in a Spanish bank is just about the worst thing you could do. If she persists with this idea, bonk her on the noggin with a spade and stash her under the patio.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Horlics said:


> Hey Op,
> 
> My point of view is that at this point in time, Spain is not the place to buy a property for investment purposes. The cost of acquisition and disposal (taxes and agents' fees) are so high that you would have to see quite a good appreciation in price before you actually start to make any money. And about "making money" on property. If it's your primary residence and you need it to live in, then you won't be selling it, and therefore won't see any of that money you make.
> 
> ...


But don't rent the property out nor leave such tools about as might facilitate someone digging up said patio.


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## Leper (May 12, 2010)

. . . and if your Spanish neighbours want to run a waste pipe through your property, ensure they don't dig up the patio . . .


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## seasideman (Nov 8, 2015)

Lynn R said:


> But again, Jo, what worked for you wouldn't have worked for everybody. Even before the exchange rate plummeted, the rental on the house I owned in the North West of England, after tax and expenses, certainly wouldn't have covered the rent in Spain, let alone bills or anything else. You are speaking from the perspective of owning a property in the South where rents are much higher.
> 
> And, incidentally, the house I sold in October 2006 has not increased in value at all since that time, so I have not missed out on any capital appreciation either.


That is the problem. I have looked at the property prices and in the past ten years the property prices where we are have only gone up around 10,000

If we rented out the property, with the fees to pay, insurance and all that, we would be paying to cover the mortgage and fees around £200 per month going through an estate agent. 

Work wise, not a problem. I am going to speak to my accountant and let him weight everything up. He can then predict what I would get back in ten years time and what i would make if i sold the house and made an investment.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Lynn R said:


> And, incidentally, the house I sold in October 2006 has not increased in value at all since that time, so I have not missed out on any capital appreciation either.


Lynn,

I was involved in another thread on here recently in which I was pointing out that large areas of the UK have seen very little or negative growth over almost a decade. I'm not surprised by your experience and anybody who thinks they're going to make a fortune from investing in property should take heed.

Op,

About the rental income paying the mortgage. If you are resident in Spain you'll be taxed on the rental income you make in the UK. You'll actually be taxed on it whether you rent it or not. You might want to check that it will in fact cover the mortgage.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Horlics said:


> Lynn,
> 
> I was involved in another thread on here recently in which I was pointing out that large areas of the UK have seen very little or negative growth over almost a decade. I'm not surprised by your experience and anybody who thinks they're going to make a fortune from investing in property should take heed.


Yes, I remember that. We also sold my late father's house in September 2007 and about 2 years ago it went back on the market for 15k less than we got for it (we sold for 80k so that was a pretty big drop). It didn't sell and was taken off the market again. It was bought as a buy to let so whoever the buyer was, it wasn't a very good investment.

Most people commenting on the money to bemade in owning/renting property in the UK know nothing about life in the UK anywhere North of Watford, and just prefer to believe estate agents' hype dressed up as newspaper articles. I base my opinions on Land Registry sold prices.


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## seasideman (Nov 8, 2015)

Lynn R said:


> Yes, I remember that. We also sold my late father's house in September 2007 and about 2 years ago it went back on the market for 15k less than we got for it (we sold for 80k so that was a pretty big drop). It didn't sell and was taken off the market again. It was bought as a buy to let so whoever the buyer was, it wasn't a very good investment.
> 
> Most people commenting on the money to bemade in owning/renting property in the UK know nothing about life in the UK anywhere North of Watford, and just prefer to believe estate agents' hype dressed up as newspaper articles. I base my opinions on Land Registry sold prices.


Yes got to admit, giving me a headache lol. Some of the people do not understand the costs involved and maybe some have a house that has been paid for outright.

Went through the costs again last night and without the tax from spain, i would have to pay £200 each month. That covers the mortgage, letting fees, insurance etc. 

Ok, If we sold it in ten years time we would get another £40-60,000 back but my wife is 59, and she would be 69 then. 

Because I am old school i keep on thinking about renting it out and having a back up plan, but my wife is determined that Spain is where she wants to live and has no intention of coming back to the UK to live.

But, the question is, if we sold the house, as we would not need to touch the funds, what would we do with it. Would we get any interest in a spanish bank.

I would just like some of it around in case we needed it but would like the other to earn a bit of interest for me


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

If you are selling your UK house be careful to time your move to Spain as you could be nailed for tax on the sale in Spain


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## seasideman (Nov 8, 2015)

Rabbitcat said:


> If you are selling your UK house be careful to time your move to Spain as you could be nailed for tax on the sale in Spain


can you explain more. I am looking to sell it before we move


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Basically if you sell your UK house in the same year you become tax resident in Spain you will be liable for CGT in Spain

Example

You sell your house January and move to Spain in May- arriving in Spain in May means come Dec31sr you will have been there more than 183 days in a year ( Spanish tax year runs Jan to Dec) You are therefore tax resident and liable for taxation for the complete year- including January when you sold the UK property.


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## seasideman (Nov 8, 2015)

Rabbitcat said:


> Basically if you sell your UK house in the same year you become tax resident in Spain you will be liable for CGT in Spain
> 
> Example
> 
> You sell your house January and move to Spain in May- arriving in Spain in May means you will be there more than 183 days in a year ( Spanish tax year runs Jan to Dec) You are therefore tax resident and liable for taxation for the complete year- including January when you sold the UK property.


Well that is not good and not fair. That is now leaving me the other direction of keeping the house on. I am shocked that you are liable for tax for something you sell in the UK.

The rental would be £500 a month, so i would have to see how much tax I would have to pay as i would not make anything from it and would have to pay £200 on top.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

The way round it of course is if you sell your UK house make sure you don't shift to Spain in the same tax year. Hard to time I know but certainly worth the effort of maybe renting in UK for short period after sale before moving out to Spain.

We plan to put ours up early March . We reckon 6 months should shift it and if we have to rent until end of year before moving early the following year-so be it


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## seasideman (Nov 8, 2015)

Rabbitcat said:


> The way round it of course is if you sell your UK house make sure you don't shift to Spain in the same tax year. Hard to time I know but certainly worth the effort of maybe renting in UK for short period after sake before moving out to Spain


If we put the house on the market, i expect it to sell around may with completion. Is there no other way around it, as we really need to be in Spain no later than August and was looking to start renting around march april time. any ideas welcome


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Well, in theory if you are less than 183 days in total in Spain you are not tax resident for that year.

Therefore, in theory if you had not already had any other trips to Spain that year- a move to Spain anytime after early July should suffice.

BUT, and this has been a subject which I have differed with others on here- if the Spanish deem that you have shifted your entire centre of economic interest to Spain they can deem you tax resident even without the qualifying 183 day period.

In other words to be 101% certain- do not shift until the following calendar year


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## seasideman (Nov 8, 2015)

Rabbitcat said:


> Well, in theory if you are less than 183 days in total in Spain you are not tax resident for that year.
> 
> Therefore, in theory if you had not already had any other trips to Spain that year- a move to Spain anytime after early July should suffice.
> 
> ...


wow the spanish love taxing the ex-pats. is there anywhere i can read to see how much they would tax me


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

I believe ( but not 100% certain) it's around 20% of any gain you have made


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## seasideman (Nov 8, 2015)

Rabbitcat said:


> I believe ( but not 100% certain) it's around 20% of any gain you have made


This is really putting me off moving to spain. It seems the spanish government just want to tax the expats left right and centre. so, if i had a property for arguements sake that sold for £140,000 and i bought it for £120,000, then they would want the profit of the £20,000. This is moving me towards renting the property out.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

They would want around 20% of the profit, £4000


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## seasideman (Nov 8, 2015)

Rabbitcat said:


> They would want around 20% of the profit, £5000


well unless i can find a way around that, then it is either renting out the property or the move is off. I am shocked. I take it that is what the article i have not read yet is all about, which is about how tens of thousands of expats came back home.

I also read another article on how some politicans have called on the government to sort themselves out saying they are pushing expats out of spain, which will damage the economy.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

There is however also tax relief available if you use the proceeds of the sale of your UK home to buy a Spanish one ( if the UK home was your only property)


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## seasideman (Nov 8, 2015)

Rabbitcat said:


> There is however also tax relief available if you use the proceeds of the sale of your UK home to buy a Spanish one ( if the UK home was your only property)


i would not be buying a property in Spain just renting.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Well then you will need some careful timing


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

seasideman said:


> well unless i can find a way around that, then it is either renting out the property or the move is off. I am shocked. I take it that is what the article i have not read yet is all about, which is about how tens of thousands of expats came back home.
> 
> I also read another article on how some politicans have called on the government to sort themselves out saying they are pushing expats out of spain, which will damage the economy.


They are not taxing expats any differently than they are Spanish citizens. Neither are they taxing expats more favourably than Spanish citizens, which a lot of people seem to think they should do, but think what uproar there would be in the UK if immigrants were taxed more favourably than UK natives.

Expats went back home for a lot of reasons. For a lot of them, their income suffered badly when the exchange rate plummeted. Others did not like it when the requirement to declare all their overseas assets was introdued (the Modelo 720) although this did not mean that they would have to pay any more tax on them than they should have been doing anyway. But often they had never declared interest on overseas bank or bulding society accounts, rental income on property owned in other countries, share dividends, etc. and they couldn't suddenly start declaring it after the Modelo 720 was introduced or questions would have been asked about where the assets had suddenly come from. Spanish citizens are, of course, also subject to exactly the same requirements to declare overseas assets (that's who it was designed to catch, wealthy Spaniards hiding assets overseas, not expats) and to date the only person who has been fined because he failed to declare and had not been declaring income on overseas assets for years is a Spanish pensioner.

Please don't get into the mindset of believing that the Spanish Government preys on expats and treats them less favourably. If you see yourself as a victim and are constantly griping about how hard done to we are, when that's not actually true, you would not be happy in Spain at all.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

The tax requirements are a bit of a minefield and you need to talk to an expert out there not some bar-room/ forum quasi advisor like myself.

I have done a bit of research as well as general advice from a Spanish tax consultant ( re CGT) but would still want to run EVERYTHING by a qualified consultant out there

Where I am in a better position than you is that I have little to tax. I am poor, very poor. We only had children as they were cheaper than turkey for Xmas.


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## seasideman (Nov 8, 2015)

Rabbitcat said:


> The tax requirements are a bit of a minefield and you need to talk to an expert out there not some bar-room/ forum quasi advisor like myself.
> 
> I have done a bit of research as well as general advice from a Spanish tax consultant ( re CGT) but would still want to run EVERYTHING by a qualified consultant out there
> 
> Where I am in a better position than you is that I have little to tax. I am poor, very poor. We only had children as they were cheaper than turkey for Xmas.


I have been trying to find out if there is anyone to get tax advice from in Spain. There was a company but they are no longer taking on any clients so their site no longer has a contact email address.

So trying to find someone out there that can give me tax advice on this and on a business matter


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

seasideman said:


> If we put the house on the market, i expect it to sell around may with completion. Is there no other way around it, as we really need to be in Spain no later than August and was looking to start renting around march april time. any ideas welcome


So no later than August means you could move to Spain, early July which would mean that you would not clock up 183 days in Spain (don't forget that any holiday pre-move visits will also count towards that 183 days) and you would not become tax resident until the following year.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

baldilocks said:


> So no later than August means you could move to Spain, early July which would mean that you would not clock up 183 days in Spain (don't forget that any holiday pre-move visits will also count towards that 183 days) and you would not become tax resident until the following year.


In theory.......


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## seasideman (Nov 8, 2015)

baldilocks said:


> So no later than August means you could move to Spain, early July which would mean that you would not clock up 183 days in Spain (don't forget that any holiday pre-move visits will also count towards that 183 days) and you would not become tax resident until the following year.


Sorry, can you explain more on that. So if we sold a house in August 2015, when could we move, and does anyone have any email address for tax professionals in Spain.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

The dogs knackers are - Blevins Franks. Google them


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Seaside I just checked and the rate from 2016 is 19% of any gain ( tax is on gain only- not total selling price)


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## seasideman (Nov 8, 2015)

when did the tax come in, or has it been around for a long time


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

seasideman said:


> Sorry, can you explain more on that. So if we sold a house in August 2015, when could we move, and does anyone have any email address for tax professionals in Spain.


You said you need to be in Spain by early August, therefore you do not need to move before early July so would not clock up 183 days in 2016 except that you would have to allow for any time spent here looking for property etc. If that is the case any sale of property in 2016 would not be a problem since your tax liability to Spain would not start until January 2017.

As far as tax in Spain is concerned, most of us have a good gestor to deal with our tax affairs and a gestor is much cheaper than an accountant.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Op,

CGT is not payable on your primary residence. If you haven't bought another place before you sell your current one, they're going to struggle to apply CGT. CGT is applied to second homes, and if you have only one home.... just don't buy before you sell, and don't enter into a long term contract.

I think you would get away with it but you should check.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

seasideman said:


> when did the tax come in, or has it been around for a long time


For almost every UK tax there is an equivalent tax in Spain. Don't be put off moving to a new country when you begin to discover how it manages its citizens. The saying about two certainties in life is true in almost all places in the world. If you move to Spain you're going to have to deal with the tax man just as you currently deal with the Inland Revenue (if that's what they call it these days).


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## seasideman (Nov 8, 2015)

Horlics said:


> For almost every UK tax there is an equivalent tax in Spain. Don't be put off moving to a new country when you begin to discover how it manages its citizens. The saying about two certainties in life is true in almost all places in the world. If you move to Spain you're going to have to deal with the tax man just as you currently deal with the Inland Revenue (if that's what they call it these days).


They no longer call it the inland revenue, they call it the conservative fund, where they use us to buy private planes for their mps, spend millions of pounds each year on parties, and supporting the rich so they can enjoy their lifestyle while the poor pay for it


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

seasideman said:


> This is really putting me off moving to spain. It seems the spanish government just want to tax the expats left right and centre.


I cannot think of one tax that applies only to immigrants. Is there one??
Most British immigrants aren't wealthy enough to be tax cows.
Now Russians and Chinese.......
I doubt very much that most Brits went home because of tax increases. I'd say it was ore likely to be because they gave insufficient thought to fluctuations in exchange rates and came here with inadequate funds.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Lynn R said:


> They are not taxing expats any differently than they are Spanish citizens. Neither are they taxing expats more favourably than Spanish citizens, which a lot of people seem to think they should do, but think what uproar there would be in the UK if immigrants were taxed more favourably than UK natives.
> 
> Expats went back home for a lot of reasons. For a lot of them, their income suffered badly when the exchange rate plummeted. Others did not like it when the requirement to declare all their overseas assets was introdued (the Modelo 720) although this did not mean that they would have to pay any more tax on them than they should have been doing anyway. But often they had never declared interest on overseas bank or bulding society accounts, rental income on property owned in other countries, share dividends, etc. and they couldn't suddenly start declaring it after the Modelo 720 was introduced or questions would have been asked about where the assets had suddenly come from. Spanish citizens are, of course, also subject to exactly the same requirements to declare overseas assets (that's who it was designed to catch, wealthy Spaniards hiding assets overseas, not expats) and to date the only person who has been fined because he failed to declare and had not been declaring income on overseas assets for years is a Spanish pensioner.
> 
> Please don't get into the mindset of believing that the Spanish Government preys on expats and treats them less favourably. If you see yourself as a victim and are constantly griping about how hard done to we are, when that's not actually true, you would not be happy in Spain at all.


Well said, Lynn. Spain is better off without the whingeing Brits who often lived off Spain rather than in Spain....dodging taxes, driving illegal UK registered cars, working on the black...
Spain or any country for that matter needs immigrants like that like a hole in the head.


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## seasideman (Nov 8, 2015)

mrypg9 said:


> Well said, Lynn. Spain is better off without the whingeing Brits who often lived off Spain rather than in Spain....dodging taxes, driving illegal UK registered cars, working on the black...
> Spain or any country for that matter needs immigrants like that like a hole in the head.


I have to say, it puts me off using this forum, as I know Spanish people are very nice people and polite, and seems to me some of the British on here are very rude and disgusting. People come on and ask questions, not to be spoken to in such a manner.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> I cannot think of one tax that applies only to immigrants. Is there one??
> Most British immigrants aren't wealthy enough to be tax cows.
> Now Russians and Chinese.......
> I doubt very much that most Brits went home because of tax increases. I'd say it was ore likely to be because they gave insufficient thought to fluctuations in exchange rates and came here with inadequate funds.


There isn't a single one 

even the so-called 'non-resident tax' for property owners isn't just for foreigners, since really it's a 'second home/property tax' & applies to anyone of any nationality who has a property here which isn't their primary residence - including Spanish nationals.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

seasideman said:


> I have to say, it puts me off using this forum, as I know Spanish people are very nice people and polite, and seems to me some of the British on here are very rude and disgusting. People come on and ask questions, not to be spoken to in such a manner.


Why did you think that applied to you, I wonder? 
Seems to me you are too quick to take offence.
I could add that you have ascribed motives and intentions to the Spanish Government (and by extension to Spain as a whole) that are inaccurate and untrue.
I doubt the Spanish will be offended, though.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Horlics said:


> Op,
> 
> CGT is not payable on your primary residence. If you haven't bought another place before you sell your current one, they're going to struggle to apply CGT. CGT is applied to second homes, and if you have only one home.... just don't buy before you sell, and don't enter into a long term contract.
> 
> I think you would get away with it but you should check.


Hmmm, not quite.

You could buy your Spanish home before you sell your UK one just as long as within a 2 year period you sink the equivalent of the gain on your UK property into your Spanish one AND the Spanish one is then your only property.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

seasideman said:


> I have to say, it puts me off using this forum, as I know Spanish people are very nice people and polite, and seems to me some of the British on here are very rude and disgusting. People come on and ask questions, not to be spoken to in such a manner.


The Spanish are lovely people, but I think mrypg9s comment was at how they perhaps saw the "expats" in days gone by. Things have become more "orderly" in Spain, certainly since they became an economy and part of the EU 

Jo xxxx


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

seasideman said:


> I have to say, it puts me off using this forum, as I know Spanish people are very nice people and polite, and seems to me some of the British on here are very rude and disgusting. People come on and ask questions, not to be spoken to in such a manner.


If you'd lived here as long as some of us, legally, registered, paying your way taxwise etc., you'd probably feel the same as some of us (including me) 

It makes my blood boil when I come across the all too many who only want to know how to live under the radar, not pay tax, not re-matriculate the car etc., - in other words they want to know how to break the law - both on the forum & in real life

They give the rest of us a bad name 

If you lived here & spoke Spanish, you'd hear what the Spanish say about the foreigners who do that - & trust me - it's far from polite


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

seasideman said:


> I have to say, it puts me off using this forum, as I know Spanish people are very nice people and polite, and seems to me some of the British on here are very rude and disgusting. People come on and ask questions, not to be spoken to in such a manner.


They are referring to people who come here and "live below the radar" - the cheats, the illegal immigrants, those who take all that Spain has to offer without putting anything in. They avoid their taxes and other commitments that one has to honour in order that a country can survive and so that the tax burden is not shouldered by just a few honest people. They aren't referring to you. For example, there is a Brit not very far from here who has been here about 15 years, he has about 7 or 8 vehicles with British registrations, untaxed, no MOT, no insurance. He rotates the vehicles every so often so the the Guardia don't repeatedly see the same vehicle on the road. There were others (now deceased) within my knowledge who were drawing all sorts of benefits from the Uk when they had been here for years.


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## seasideman (Nov 8, 2015)

jojo said:


> The Spanish are lovely people, but I think mrypg9s comment was at how they perhaps saw the "expats" in days gone by. Things have become more "orderly" in Spain, certainly since they became an economy and part of the EU
> 
> Jo xxxx


Would be interesting to see how things will change for expats if the UK are brave enough to leave the EU, or as some would say stupid enough


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Errrm Jojo

I have an Irish mate Fred, no Bert, no Fred.

Anyway Ted is Irish, a deadbeat, no money, lazy and likes a beer. Do you think the Spanish will be ok with him?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Rabbitcat said:


> Errrm Jojo
> 
> I have an Irish mate Fred, no Bert, no Fred.
> 
> Anyway Ted is Irish, a deadbeat, no money, lazy and likes a beer. Do you think the Spanish will be ok with him?


As long as he stays in Ireland 

Jo xxx


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

jojo said:


> As long as he stays in Ireland
> 
> Jo xxx



Lol- love it!!!!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

seasideman said:


> Would be interesting to see how things will change for expats if the UK are brave enough to leave the EU, or as some would say stupid enough


...and therein lies another hypothetical scenario. One which may well need thinking about before "leaping into the unknown"

Jo xxx


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Horlics said:


> CGT is not payable on your primary residence.


It isn't in the UK, but it is in Spain, unless you invest the proceeds in another property within 2 years, or unless you are aged 65 or over and the property has been your main residence for at least 3 years.

I think people are getting too hung up about the theoretical possibility that Spain could regard you as tax resident immediately if you have moved your centre of economic interest here, although you have been resident in Spain for less than 183 days.

I sold my house in the UK in October 2006 and moved to Spain, I had already owned a house here for almost 4 years by then. I made an appointment to go and see Hacienda in May 2008, the first year that I thought an income tax declaration would have been due. I explained that I had no income from a salary or pension, but was living off capital which was partly from the sale of my property in the UK. They weren't in the least interested and told me I didn't need to submit an income tax return until I started to receive my pension.

I don't know a single person who has had to pay CGT on the sale of their house in the UK prior to moving to Spain, regardless of how many days they were resident for that first year.


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## seasideman (Nov 8, 2015)

Lynn R said:


> It isn't in the UK, but it is in Spain, unless you invest the proceeds in another property within 2 years, or unless you are aged 65 or over and the property has been your main residence for at least 3 years.
> 
> I think people are getting too hung up about the theoretical possibility that Spain could regard you as tax resident immediately if you have moved your centre of economic interest here, although you have been resident in Spain for less than 183 days.
> 
> ...


Thank you Lynn. Spent the day researching this and spoken to experts who have said the same thing.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

seasideman said:


> I have been trying to find out if there is anyone to get tax advice from in Spain.


Surely the people to get tax advice from in Spain are the people in the Spanish tax offices?
I can understand that people want a few pointers about banks, taxes, contracts etc from forum members, and that often we can give insights from our experience that you wouldn't get from other sources,
BUT
you have to include in your "research" info from official sources. 
It is true however in Spain that the absolute last word is difficult to find as sometimes civil servants don't keep up with changes, or just don't receive the training needed. That's another of the many differences between Spain and the UK. It's the clients responsibility to collect and order the info that s/he is given.
You need important information that can make the difference between coming to Spain or not. I'm not saying it's easy to do that, but I do think it's necessary. I would say that you need to go to the pertinent government offices, with a professional translator if necessary and contrast the info you find with the BOE - The Official Bulletin of The Spanish State.
Here is some info in English from the tax office although I think when you get to the end of the link, the info tends to be in Spanish
https://www.agenciatributaria.gob.es/AEAT.sede/en_gb/Inicio/Inicio.shtml

Here is a list of all the offices in Spain where you can get information
https://www.agenciatributaria.gob.e...aciones/Delegaciones_y_Administraciones.shtml


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

seasideman said:


> Thank you Lynn. Spent the day researching this and spoken to experts who have said the same thing.


which experts?

the only true experts work for the tax office/hacienda, as PeskyWesky has said 

many of us can share our experiences, as will happen on other websites & forums, but for 'expert' advice you need to go to those on the front line - the tax office/hacienda - & give them detailed info. in order to get a detailed response


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Lynn R said:


> It isn't in the UK, but it is in Spain, unless you invest the proceeds in another property within 2 years, or unless you are aged 65 or over and the property has been your main residence for at least 3 years.
> 
> I think people are getting too hung up about the theoretical possibility that Spain could regard you as tax resident immediately if you have moved your centre of economic interest here, although you have been resident in Spain for less than 183 days.
> 
> ...


...made an appointment to go and see Hacienda...


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## MovingOUTofFrance (Nov 1, 2012)

seasideman said:


> This is two questions into one.
> 
> I am moving to Spain in August 2016 with my wife. Will be renting to begin with but we have a difference of opinion. My wife wants to only rent, she does not want to buy, but I want to buy after a year of being there.
> 
> ...


I would never ever sell a property in UK - UNLESS its worth a lot of money and can be sold to split into two properties one in spain and one in UK. A UK property can give you income for life -it can be rented and be your retirement income even if you dont want to ever live there. A property in spain is too much hassle to handle, its only good as a place to live in but not as an "investment" at all. Spain's future is also unsure, anything can happen there so dont put all your eggs in a basket like spain at least.

As for spanish banks, do you see whats happened in greece and cyprus? The same can happen in spain at any point, these mediterranean countries have a good quality of life but are economically a total mess and have high levels of corruption, the future of these countries can be anything even France is not very secure, UK has a strong future because its a capitalist mentality and much more progressive, keep your property in UK its the strongest investment in the world, and remember that a UK property is always going to be liquid, once u buy property in spain its very difficult to sell.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Pesky Wesky said:


> ...made an appointment to go and see Hacienda...


Yes, I did. Anyone. during the period for submission of the annual IRPF return, can make an appointment with Hacienda by ringing a central number, or online. and go along to their noffice where they will take your personal and income details and complete the return, show you the comparison as to whether it would be more favourable for you to submit a joint or individual returns, complete a direct debit form for the tax due to be paid, and print off a copy of the return for you. The service is completely free.

As I said, once I'd explained my situation (including the fact that I had capital arising from the sale of my UK house before I moved to Spain) they told me I didn't need to submit a return until I started to receive a pension (or, of course, if I'd got a job or become self-employed).


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

MovingOUTofFrance said:


> ....(1) keep your property in UK its the strongest investment in the world......(2) once u buy property in spain its very difficult to sell.


I agree with your assessment but you weaken it slightly (only slightly) with a couple of statements that aren't true,

1. You might want to look more closely at global opportunities if you think the UK is the strongest investment in the world. It's not.

2. My neighbour just sold his place in Spain in 2 weeks. I could sell mine quickly. There are places in Spain where it is possible to sell quicker than you could in some parts of the UK.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

MovingOUTofFrance said:


> I would never ever sell a property in UK - UNLESS its worth a lot of money and can be sold to split into two properties one in spain and one in UK. A UK property can give you income for life -it can be rented and be your retirement income even if you dont want to ever live there. A property in spain is too much hassle to handle, its only good as a place to live in but not as an "investment" at all. Spain's future is also unsure, anything can happen there so dont put all your eggs in a basket like spain at least.
> 
> As for spanish banks, do you see whats happened in greece and cyprus? The same can happen in spain at any point, these mediterranean countries have a good quality of life but are economically a total mess and have high levels of corruption, the future of these countries can be anything even France is not very secure, UK has a strong future because its a capitalist mentality and much more progressive, keep your property in UK its the strongest investment in the world, and remember that a UK property is always going to be liquid, once u buy property in spain its very difficult to sell.


It took us two years to sell in UK and my sister has just sold after 3 years


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

MovingOUTofFrance said:


> +
> 
> As for spanish banks, do you see whats happened in greece and cyprus? The same can happen in spain at any point/QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

baldilocks said:


> It took us two years to sell in UK and my sister has just sold after 3 years


And my nephew in the UK has had his house on the market for over a year, no takers yet.

A friend in another area took hers off the market after 18 months without a sale.


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## MovingOUTofFrance (Nov 1, 2012)

Lynn R said:


> MovingOUTofFrance said:
> 
> 
> > +
> ...


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## calbion (May 8, 2014)

Hi Seasideman,
Afraid you'll have to get used to that on here, there are certain posters who revel in their 'holier than thou attitude' but don't let it put you off. Regards.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Now is a pretty good time to buy in Spain so if that is what you ultimately want to do then go for it, proceed with caution and research but I can't really see any reason not too beyond personal preference or financial constraints.

By all means rent first if for nothing else you have a place to stay during your search and completion, it may go quickly or like us it took a year and a half to find the right place, fallen through sales and then 4 months for the sellers to get their property ready for completion etc, etc.

I'm certainly happy that we brought when we did, I have no desire to pay for and live in a long term let again, in Spain or anywhere for that matter. But that is just what suits us for now, clearly others have different ideas but it is ultimately what works for you.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

MovingOUTofFrance said:


> UK is good for investment, not for living, the quality of life is terrible, I am not into British cuisine or the food culture, even if its getting better its all copied....and If i wanted to live in a country full of Indians, Id stay in India...lol.
> 
> P.s. Central london property is considered a world reserve currency now, most of London is very liquid, im sure parts of spain are also easy to sell property however i know in Paris also many people trying to sell properties for five years without any luck, in spain i know someone trying to sell for 8 years, it depends on the size, location and other factors but for sure anything within the London area sells easily at some price at least. But best part of UK are the rental laws, its the only country left in Europe where rental laws favour landlords and that is really the reason why the world wants to invest in UK property, on average also UK property values have grown more than anywhere in Europe because of the transparency in buying and renting laws.


I was not taking issue with your views on buying Spanish property for investment, although the fact that Central London property is considered a world reserve currency is very much a doube-edged sword as prices have been driven up so much that even reasonably well paid workers can't afford to live there now. The fact that rental laws favour landlords also accounts for the fact that the British taxpayer has to subsidise private landlords by shelling out so much in Housing Benefit, because without it even a large proportion of working people can't afford to pay the inflated rents. There are other ways of looking at things than just how much money a few individuals can make, after all.

What I challenged was what you said about Spanish banks which was completely wrong and unfounded.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

calbion said:


> Hi Seasideman,
> Afraid you'll have to get used to that on here, there are certain posters who revel in their 'holier than thou attitude' but don't let it put you off. Regards.


For someone who is showing as a "New Member" you seem to be very self-opinionated about the character and motives of other members. In fact you sound like one of those from another forum where rudeness and insults are very common. There are those on here who advocate renting and others who advocate buying and we have a right to have our own points of view, whether other members decide to accept those positions, or not, is up to them.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Lynn R said:


> What I challenged was what you said about Spanish banks which was completely wrong and unfounded.


When is a bank not a bank.... when it's a caja. (I think that's where he's/she's getting confused.)


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Anyone who buys property anywhere purely as an 'investment' is a fool. It only takes a property crash and your investment shrinks faster than a p*lla in an ice cold shower. By all means buy property to live in - no fears of an unscrupulous landlord making you unwelcome - if it gains in value and you can sell it when you want to do so, then you have made a profit on a good investment, but if you can't sell or the market has crashed just count your loss as the rent you would have had to pay if you hadn't bought.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

baldilocks said:


> Anyone who buys property anywhere purely as an 'investment' is a fool.


I don't go along with that one Baldi. So a multi-millionaire with 10 million in stocks and shares across 3 solid indexes, 3 million in safe government bonds, 12 million in the bank, 6 million in a peer-to-peer lending scheme, decides to buy a BTL in London and he's a fool. I think not.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Horlics said:


> I don't go along with that one Baldi. So a multi-millionaire with 10 million in stocks and shares across 3 solid indexes, 3 million in safe government bonds, 12 million in the bank, 6 million in a peer-to-peer lending scheme, decides to buy a BTL in London and he's a fool. I think not.


We were discussing property in the sense of a house to live in. Someone commented about buying the house as an investment, that is what I was responding to.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

I agree with you Baldi, and it was as much the greed of those buying in Spain during the boom as a pure investment that has contributed to the mess the market is in now as it was the unscrupulous lending of the banks.
It's easy to say "we didn't buy as an investment", I have said it before as to us it's more an investment in our family than anything else although I don't think anybody would truly ignore the financial aspect of it either.

Like I said now appears to be the right time to buy, the market in this area I would say has bottomed out and stabilised, or so it would appear. Certainly we wont be taking a 150G hit on this property.
I wouldn't like to predict the future but I know for certain the more of this mortgage we pay off the better the investment. 
So although we might say "buy for living an not investing" we will always have our fingers in that pot whether we like to say so or not.


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## Maureen47 (Mar 27, 2014)

We didnt buy our Spanish property as an investment , we bought a home , if our kids benefit from it thats all good. I love my new home and it works for us thats it is ours and we are not having to worry that a landlord may decide to sell or put the rent up so much that we cant afford it. I know buying isnt for everyone but it was the right thing for us. We bought at the right time , low prices and excellent exchange rate so that minimised the risk ,but it was a risk we were willing to take. We were cash buyers so got a great deal not so much the folks we purchased from but they had 10 great years in Spain and decided to sell at probably what wasnt the best time but their circumstances required it.

If you want a new adventure , you need to plan , a bit of luck gets the timing right and like most things if it doesnt work you can change it !


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## Leper (May 12, 2010)

We all share this forum. Some of us bought a home in Spain, some of us bought as investment and some even bought as investment and for long-term holiday use. I make no excuses, I bought as an investment and it didn't come for me. I lost money. I am not moaning as I know things will improve and if my health holds out there will be a time when I make a few bob. I gather somebody posted what some say is offensive. I have no time for any offensive people and there is no need for such posts. 

Most of us pass on what we consider to be good advice. Some differ with advice too and that is OK. We are not trying to run other peoples lives. It is up to the receiver to accept or refuse any advice here and ask for clarification if necessary.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Have to agree Leper.
Excellent forum with some very knowledgable members, great insights, useful advice and a bit of craic. 
I ain't even in Spain yet and I enjoy this forum


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## Leper (May 12, 2010)

While I'm in the mood and having been informed that I post negatively a lot and advising people who are qualified and experienced in their field that there is no work for them in Spain. One poster stated that I must have been hurt to write what I do. But, I have not been hurt; I try to prevent people getting screwed up on false dreams. The poster in particular came to take up a job in hairdressing, but we never heard from her again. I often wonder if she is making a success of her adventure. As we have not heard from her (and I hope I'm wrong) I assume she didn't.

But, back to Buying -V- Renting. If the property market continues to rise for our place (currently increasing in value @ €1000 per month, thank God) we will eventually sell and will rent in Spain for at least six months of the year October - March. 

However, I don't see this trend of increase in value being maintained at current rates, but at least the future is promising.


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## MovingOUTofFrance (Nov 1, 2012)

Lynn R said:


> I was not taking issue with your views on buying Spanish property for investment, although the fact that Central London property is considered a world reserve currency is very much a doube-edged sword as prices have been driven up so much that even reasonably well paid workers can't afford to live there now. The fact that rental laws favour landlords also accounts for the fact that the British taxpayer has to subsidise private landlords by shelling out so much in Housing Benefit, because without it even a large proportion of working people can't afford to pay the inflated rents. There are other ways of looking at things than just how much money a few individuals can make, after all.
> 
> What I challenged was what you said about Spanish banks which was completely wrong and unfounded.


The British Taxpayer is wayyyyy better off than the French or Swedish or even Belgian taxpayers. in belgium if u do a job ur taxes are the highest in Europe. Uk has the lowest taxes amongst ther better Eu countries so I dont know why British moan about their taxes so much. Even if UK property goes down for a bit, it picks up because UK has a very organised and transparent property market compared to the rest of the world and the real reason why so many foreign buyers are attracted to UK property is - "safety", foreigners feel safe investing in UK because they are well protected by law and even if there is a problem, the British justice system is clean, fast and fair and thats why a lot of big money is flowing into UK properties.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

MovingOUTofFrance said:


> The British Taxpayer is wayyyyy better off than the French or Swedish or even Belgian taxpayers. in belgium if u do a job ur taxes are the highest in Europe. Uk has the lowest taxes amongst ther better Eu countries so I dont know why British moan about their taxes so much. Even if UK property goes down for a bit, it picks up because UK has a very organised and transparent property market compared to the rest of the world and the real reason why so many foreign buyers are attracted to UK property is - "safety", foreigners feel safe investing in UK because they are well protected by law and even if there is a problem, the British justice system is clean, fast and fair and thats why a lot of big money is flowing into UK properties.


I can quite see why foreign buyers find UK property attractive. However, my point was that the fact that there are now so many of them, and the effect that has had on the housing market in certain areas (and which is spreading to other cities besides London, apparently) is not a good thing for domestic buyers or tenants, as it has driven prices up so much.


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## Roy C (Sep 29, 2012)

Lynn R said:


> And my nephew in the UK has had his house on the market for over a year, no takers yet.
> 
> A friend in another area took hers off the market after 18 months without a sale.


Ours took one week to sell with lots of interest in it. In fact if the sale fell through we wouldn't be worried as its gone up in that short time. I think the south east is booming due to the shortage of properties.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Roy C said:


> Ours took one week to sell with lots of interest in it. In fact if the sale fell through we wouldn't be worried as its gone up in that short time. I think the south east is booming due to the shortage of properties.


really??

Jo xxx


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## Roy C (Sep 29, 2012)

jojo said:


> really??
> 
> Jo xxx


Yes, really and we got a lot more than expected. In fact I thought the estate agents were just quoting higher values to get the business, so we pitched it a bit lower ( but not much) than suggested. We're also buying an apartment in Chichester and that was a bit of a competition in itself.

Is it not the same in Worthing?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Roy C said:


> Yes, really and we got a lot more than expected. In fact I thought the estate agents were just quoting higher values to get the business, so we pitched it a bit lower ( but not much) than suggested. We're also buying an apartment in Chichester and that was a bit of a competition in itself.
> 
> Is it not the same in Worthing?


Apparently not in our price band!!! :Cry:

Jo xxx


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## MovingOUTofFrance (Nov 1, 2012)

Lynn R said:


> I can quite see why foreign buyers find UK property attractive. However, my point was that the fact that there are now so many of them, and the effect that has had on the housing market in certain areas (and which is spreading to other cities besides London, apparently) is not a good thing for domestic buyers or tenants, as it has driven prices up so much.


It is precisely due to foreign buyers pushung prices up in UK that many of the existing British homeowners have become millionaires overnight. Locals who invested in the 80s and 90s in London are sitting on a lot of cash right now, even places like hackney and brixton which were dirt cheap at one time now have homes in the millions. There are always opportunities in UK, and not just in London. Manchester is the next place to boom, and prices are still cheap there. If UK didnt have so many foreign investors it would be as bad as France today, economically.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

baldilocks said:


> We were discussing property in the sense of a house to live in. Someone commented about buying the house as an investment, that is what I was responding to.


Me too.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

MovingOUTofFrance said:


> It is precisely due to foreign buyers pushung prices up in UK that many of the existing British homeowners have become millionaires overnight. Locals who invested in the 80s and 90s in London are sitting on a lot of cash right now, even places like hackney and brixton which were dirt cheap at one time now have homes in the millions. There are always opportunities in UK, and not just in London. Manchester is the next place to boom, and prices are still cheap there. If UK didnt have so many foreign investors it would be as bad as France today, economically.


Oh yes, great for any existing homeowners who can sell at these hugely overinflated prices, but not so good for other British people trying to buy a property or move to another one.

How does foreign investors buying up a large proportion of new property developments simply as a place to park their money help the British population? And there isn't much transparency about the fact that many of those purchases are made through dodgy offshore companies based in tax havens in order to hide the true identities of the purchasers.


Revealed: How foreign buyers have bought £100bn of London property in six years | London | News | London Evening Standard


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Same can be said for Australia too, in fact they are now starting to crack down of foreign investment but that is seemingly more to keep the domestic developers happy more than the general public who were long ago priced out of the market.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

The problem is not just in London, apparently.

Fears foreign buyers leave hundreds of Cambridge homes empty through 'buy-to-leave' investments | Cambridge News

How can anybody, other than the foreign investors themselves, think that new properties, supposedly being built to alleviate the housing shortage, being bought up by foreign investors as "buy to leave empty" investments is actually beneficial to Britain?


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

MovingOUTofFrance said:


> It is precisely due to foreign buyers pushung prices up in UK that many of the existing British homeowners have become millionaires overnight. Locals who invested in the 80s and 90s in London are sitting on a lot of cash right now.


I agree with much of what you say but you do mix UK and British with London, and they really are very different. If you have a look at the heatmaps on Zoopla: Heatmap of UK property values - Zoopla (source is Land Registry)​then it is very easy to see that with the exception of the red areas of London and its outskirts, much of the rest of the UK has average prices that start with a "1" or a "2", so not many millionaires amongst that lot. A person investing in an average property in my home town in the 80s is sat on about 100k profit.

We do indeed live in interesting times. There are investor shows in London where Chinese fund managers come to spend on property developments across the UK. They're building apartment blocks in all sorts of places using this cash. Arab money is everywhere too, not just big mixed-use developments like the Shard, but also million-pound-plus waterfront properties on the British Riviera (jeez) in places like Torquay. But to suggest that the UK is unique in attracting such attention is a little wide of the mark. Arab money has bought a lot of Manhattan Island and there are european countries and cities which are seen as just as safe as the UK from a regulatory, political and legal point of view.

There's a lot of foreign money out there and it's looking for a home as part of a balanced mix of investments. No surprise that the UK should get some but plenty of other places are too. As long as we in the west keep buying a load of Chinese-made ****e we don't need or even want, and keep filling our cars with petrol, the east is going to come looking for something to buy.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Lynn R said:


> Oh yes, great for any existing homeowners who can sell at these hugely overinflated prices, but not so good for other British people trying to buy a property or move to another one.


There's a guy called Michael Lewis who writes hugely entertaining books on economics and in particular the financial issues of the crash and crunch. In one book he covers Ireland's banking problem and describes the lunacy of ordinary Irish people borrowing foreign money to swap houses with each other at 4 times the price they were a couple of dozen months earlier.

The only winners are the banks.


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## Portugal-or-Spain? (Oct 25, 2015)

seasideman said:


> This is two questions into one.
> 
> I am moving to Spain in August 2016 with my wife. Will be renting to begin with but we have a difference of opinion. My wife wants to only rent, she does not want to buy, but I want to buy after a year of being there.
> 
> ...


I would rent, for sure, to start. I would be 100% certain about what you want, the area you want, any business you have ambitions upon.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Unfortunately what we see in UK at the moment with foreign money buying to "let" or "leave empty (as in a holiday home used for maybe two weeks per year" is what the Spaniards (especially the young) have had to put up with for years in many areas - they, too, have been priced out of the market.


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## Derek H (Dec 7, 2008)

Horlics said:


> There's a guy called Michael Lewis who writes hugely entertaining books on economics and in particular the financial issues of the crash and crunch.


A great topic. The entire 12 pages, this thing is going to be a long one.
A few observations :-

1, Until I Googled Michael Lewis, I thought this was a typo, and Martin Lewis was the name intended. Obviously not. But please don't forget our MoneysavingExpert. He is the wife's guru.

2, No one has yet convinced me yet, not to keep the UK house and rent in Spain. If only for a year or so.

3, Offence? If there was an offensive element on this forum, a, I would not be a member, and b, The moderators would be on it like a ton of bricks.

Keep the replies coming. A great read.

Derek


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## MovingOUTofFrance (Nov 1, 2012)

Horlics said:


> I agree with much of what you say but you do mix UK and British with London, and they really are very different. If you have a look at the heatmaps on Zoopla: Heatmap of UK property values - Zoopla (source is Land Registry)​then it is very easy to see that with the exception of the red areas of London and its outskirts, much of the rest of the UK has average prices that start with a "1" or a "2", so not many millionaires amongst that lot. A person investing in an average property in my home town in the 80s is sat on about 100k profit.
> 
> We do indeed live in interesting times. There are investor shows in London where Chinese fund managers come to spend on property developments across the UK. They're building apartment blocks in all sorts of places using this cash. Arab money is everywhere too, not just big mixed-use developments like the Shard, but also million-pound-plus waterfront properties on the British Riviera (jeez) in places like Torquay. But to suggest that the UK is unique in attracting such attention is a little wide of the mark. Arab money has bought a lot of Manhattan Island and there are european countries and cities which are seen as just as safe as the UK from a regulatory, political and legal point of view.
> 
> There's a lot of foreign money out there and it's looking for a home as part of a balanced mix of investments. No surprise that the UK should get some but plenty of other places are too. As long as we in the west keep buying a load of Chinese-made ****e we don't need or even want, and keep filling our cars with petrol, the east is going to come looking for something to buy.


For many current and historical reasons, foreign investors do not view the rest of europe as very "safe" for parking their money. Whereas UK is viewd as a safe haven by many rich foreigners for parking their money because as ive already mentioned there is a strong trust in UK due to a fair and efficient justice system, and also the english language makes things a lot easier. Regulations in UK are easier and much better than countries like france, germany, netherlands and spain. In most other Eu countries if you have to go to court for any issues, the procedure is lengthy and difficult and very frustrating at times, it can also be corrupt but in UK its bery straightforward and clean..this is the main reason for UKs success they have always maintained a fast and fair judicial system even when Britain had colonies the same system was established in those colonies too. when Hollande became president in France, 5000 french families packed and moved to London and bought properties, when Greece had a turmoil, the rich all ran away to UK, even germans and italians and spanish are investing in UK property so its not just the arabs and chinese or indians. also tax laws in UK are very favourable for foreign property buyers. 

I am aware that outside London very few parts of UK have grown so much, well it is spreading now and other cities such as manchester, birmingham and leeds are also booming and more new housing is being created. In London those who benifitted really made a killing, There was an article not long ago some guy bought a house in Hackney for £30k around 20 years ago and sold it for £3 million or something. There are still opportunities in London and many cheaper housing available but its all going to get expensive as demand for a piece of london grows.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Derek H said:


> A great topic. The entire 12 pages, this thing is going to be a long one.
> A few observations :-
> 
> 1, Until I Googled Michael Lewis, I thought this was a typo, and Martin Lewis was the name intended. Obviously not. But please don't forget our MoneysavingExpert. He is the wife's guru.
> ...


I haven't read the 12 pages, so I hope that doesn't disqualify me from posting.
If I was a person who'd been living in the UK all my life (what I mean is with no experience of living abroad, and by living I mean at least 18 months) I wouldn't dream of buying a house to live in permanently in another country no matter how many fortnightly holidays I'd had there.
This opinion is based purely on non economic factors. I'm thinking about the language, customs, the heat, the people, the lifestyle... I'd rent for a couple of years first to see how I got on and then think about buying.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Pesky Wesky said:


> This opinion is based purely on non economic factors. I'm thinking about the language, customs, the heat, the people, the lifestyle... I'd rent for a couple of years first to see how I got on and then think about buying.


 Also, you dont always realise how much you will miss family, friends, routines, systems, familiarity of surroundings......

Jo xxx


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## Derek H (Dec 7, 2008)

jojo said:


> Also, you dont always realise how much you will miss family, friends, routines, systems, familiarity of surroundings......
> 
> Jo xxx


What do you think we are moving out for ?

Almost LOL. There is just a bit of truth there.
Derek


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

If you like reading on the subject of the crash and its causes the one I would recommend is Boomerang. Flash Boys is another good one although on the different subject of trading and how much people make from electronic transactions instead of real work. I really enjoy his style of story telling and nobody I have recommended his books to has failed to get to the end of one.



Derek H said:


> A great topic. The entire 12 pages, this thing is going to be a long one.
> A few observations :-
> 
> 1, Until I Googled Michael Lewis, I thought this was a typo, and Martin Lewis was the name intended. Obviously not. But please don't forget our MoneysavingExpert. He is the wife's guru.
> ...


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## Derek H (Dec 7, 2008)

Horlics said:


> If you like reading on the subject of the crash and its causes the one I would recommend is Boomerang. Flash Boys is another good one although on the different subject of trading and how much people make from electronic transactions instead of real work. I really enjoy his style of story telling and nobody I have recommended his books to has failed to get to the end of one.


Cheers Horlics. But it takes me all of my time to keep up with the forum. 
Still working full time. Yes, I know, at my age as well. Saving to get myself and the Sainted Nikki to Spain.
Or, A Camper.
Or France.
Or anywhere other than Northampton.

Derek


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> Also, you dont always realise how much you will miss family, friends, routines, systems, familiarity of surroundings......
> 
> Jo xxx


Some years ago after we'd left the UK a seventy- four year old friend decided over a dinner out with me in London to move to Prague rather than to sheltered housing in Finchley. When she ordered a drink to celebrate she told the waitress about her decision.
'But you'll be moving awáy from your family', said the waitress.
'Yes', shouted my friend gleefully, raising her glass.

Different strokes for different folks.


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## Derek H (Dec 7, 2008)

mrypg9 said:


> Some years ago after we'd left the UK a seventy- four year old friend decided over a dinner out with me in London to move to Prague rather than to sheltered housing in Finchley. When she ordered a drink to celebrate she told the waitress about her decision.
> 'But you'll be moving awáy from your family', said the waitress.
> 'Yes', shouted my friend gleefully, raising her glass.
> 
> Different strokes for different folks.


May I add, Mary. 
Home is a great place to visit. But I wouldn't want to live there.
Derek


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## seasideman (Nov 8, 2015)

Pazcat said:


> Now is a pretty good time to buy in Spain so if that is what you ultimately want to do then go for it, proceed with caution and research but I can't really see any reason not too beyond personal preference or financial constraints.
> 
> By all means rent first if for nothing else you have a place to stay during your search and completion, it may go quickly or like us it took a year and a half to find the right place, fallen through sales and then 4 months for the sellers to get their property ready for completion etc, etc.
> 
> I'm certainly happy that we brought when we did, I have no desire to pay for and live in a long term let again, in Spain or anywhere for that matter. But that is just what suits us for now, clearly others have different ideas but it is ultimately what works for you.


Just spoke to some people tonight and two of them have a holiday home in Spain. They said they would not fancy renting and glad when they bought, but they bought at the right time. They bought themselves properties off the bank in Spain.

I have been reading into it, and it says i would need three years of spanish accounts before i could get a mortgage. not sure if that is correct or not, as i will be self employed over there. So, if we did go down that route, then i would have to wait three years if i wanted a mortgage. would be looking at getting a mortgage over ten years or 15 years for a property around 120,000 euros, and putting £30,000 down.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

When we first moved and signed up with Sabadell and we quizzed them about a mortgage possibility and they pretty much stated that it shouldn't be a problem but to basically come back when we had actually banked with them for a while which is fair enough I guess.
There was no mention of a time frame or anything and eventually when we went back after a year and a half it wasn't a problem at all for them to give us a mortgage but their customer service became horrendous so we went elsewhere with no problems at all and are much happier to do away with them.

To be honest I don't think there is an easy answer as all banks will be different and what a bank will offer differs from branch to branch and personal situations.
Plus a bank is likely to offer you a mortgage straight up and better terms if you go for one of their properties as opposed a non bank owned property.

Like anything you need to shop around the banks and do quiz them on the differences between one of their bank owned properties as it could be the difference when being self employed to whether you can get a mortgage at all.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

seasideman said:


> I have been reading into it, and it says i would need three years of spanish accounts before i could get a mortgage. not sure if that is correct or not, as i will be self employed over there. So, if we did go down that route, then i would have to wait three years if i wanted a mortgage. would be looking at getting a mortgage over ten years or 15 years for a property around 120,000 euros, and putting £30,000 down.


I think thats the same rule as in the UK for obtaining a mortgage when you are self employed. 

Jo xxx


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