# Christmas strike threat at Spanish airports



## Alcalaina

Following the announcement yesterday that AENA, the Spanish airports authority, is to be privatised (along with the lottery) to help pay off Spain's budget deficit, the unions have threatened to strike during the Christmas period.

Now Spanish airport workers announce Christmas strike action

Glad I'm not going anywhere ... what with snow, fog and now strikes, Christmas really is the worst time to travel!


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## Stravinsky

Oh no ... thats just about the last news I wanted to hear


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## MaidenScotland

ohhh I hope not... my son is flying out to Spain to have Christmas with me and his sister the first time we have all managed to get together in 14 years


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## jojo

We're supposed to be going to the UK for christmas. OH is stranded in Spain right now cos of the snow at Gatwick!!! They'll be a volcano going off in a minute too !!!!FFS!

Jo xxx


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## Thader

Strikes are normally planned when they will cause the most disruption...Unions don't give a hoot about the heartache it can cause. There are plenty of people looking for work.. the Company should state that anyone who doesn't want to work will be replaced by someone who does.


To save money, our local Ayuntamiento has cut all its employees pay by 5 per cent, From the Mayor down to the roadsweepers. 

It has also told them that the annual christmas party, which has always been free, will cost 30 euros each this year. I doubt there will be many attending. They have accepted it, because they have no choice other than to lose their jobs. 
CD


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## nigele2

Thader said:


> Strikes are normally planned when they will cause the most disruption...Unions don't give a hoot about the heartache it can cause. There are plenty of people looking for work.. the Company should state that anyone who doesn't want to work will be replaced by someone who does.


That is exactly what they do already. That is why Spanish strikes are poorly supported 

What amazes me is the timing. Zapatero eventually does something. He is raising money that he can use to indirectly create jobs. The markets reward him instantly. [And he knocks the smile off of Rajoy's face .] 

But according to the press I read within 24 hours the unions, not the workers, call for strikes which will damage the economy. Did the unions have time to consult the membership on Mr Bean's proposals? 

And what exactly are they going to strike over:

A fear of partial privitisation? Spain is a weird place


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## MaidenScotland

There would be no point in calling a strike if it didn't disrupt...


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## jimenato

nigele2 said:


> That is exactly what they do already. That is why Spanish strikes are poorly supported
> 
> What amazes me is the timing. Zapatero eventually does something. He is raising money that he can use to indirectly create jobs. The markets reward him instantly. [And he knocks the smile off of Rajoy's face .]
> 
> But according to the press I read within 24 hours the unions, not the workers, call for strikes which will damage the economy. Did the unions have time to consult the membership on Mr Bean's proposals?
> 
> And what exactly are they going to strike over:
> 
> A fear of partial privitisation? Spain is a weird place


That's union thinking for you. Irrational, counter-productive and self-serving (as opposed to worker-serving).


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## jojo

jimenato said:


> That's union thinking for you. Irrational, counter-productive and self-serving (as opposed to worker-serving).



Most union leaders from what I've seen simply want to overthrow governments cos they want the job - but most of them are bullies and have failed to enter politics by using brain power cos they dont have any! Just my opinion 

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky

Alcalaina said:


> Now Spanish airport workers announce Christmas strike action
> 
> Glad I'm not going anywhere ... what with snow, fog and now strikes, Christmas really is the worst time to travel!


Well the thing is, not everyone can choose to travel when they want. I would prefer to spend Christmas here, but I have to go to the UK and to Bilbao.
But that way I get a turkey lunch, which I LOVE, and a slap up meal for New Year too and no Christmas food shopping involved!!

Hope everybody manages to get wherever they're aiming to get this Christmas, and that the reindeer don't lose their way!


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## Pesky Wesky

There's a strike on right at this moment and the last I heard all Spanish air space is closed apart from Seville.
The government are thinking of bringing in military traffic controllers tommorrow.


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## jojo

Pesky Wesky said:


> There's a strike on right at this moment and the last I heard all Spanish air space is closed apart from Seville.
> The government are thinking of bringing in military traffic controllers tommorrow.


Yep!!! My OH was due to fly out this evening, the snow problem is okay at Gatwick, all systems go and then he got the e-mail to say his flight was cancelled due to "sickness" - apparently all the air traffic controllers have gone off sick cos they're not allowed to strike???? My OH is not happy, he was originally due to fly back yesterday but Gatwick was closed. Altho its lovely to have him here, he has a lot of work backing up in the UK! Its better than last year when he got stranded in the UK tho (well for me!!!)

Jo xxx


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## gerrit

Thader said:


> Strikes are normally planned when they will cause the most disruption...Unions don't give a hoot about the heartache it can cause. There are plenty of people looking for work.. the Company should state that anyone who doesn't want to work will be replaced by someone who does.




Striking is an essential right and so it should maintain. It is scandalous enough the EU wants to put even more limits on the powers of labour unions. Previous generisations have been campaigning years and years to get the workers' rights we have now instead of having to work 6 days a week and have no say whatsoever. 

It is obvious one has to strike when it has the most impact. Otherwise the strike would go unnoticed and have no effect at all.

I don't know what exactly these folks are striking for ; if it is any valid thing, then good luck to them. Their positions, salaries, providing for their families etc may be part of the reason why they are doing this. It's not like anyone is going to strike just to bully people. A strike is usually the last resort when negotiating failed. If we revoke that right to strike, then we go back to the 19th century when staffmembers were de facto slaves with no rights.


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## jojo

Aena's (spanish aviation authority) website says this - not sure what it means?????? doesnt sound too good tho???

"El Gobierno decreta la militarización del control del espacio aéreo 
Debido al abandono masivo por parte de los controladores aéreos de sus puestos de trabajo, Aena recomienda a todos los pasajeros que no acudan a los aeropuertos y contacten con su compañía aérea."

http://www.aena.es/csee/Satellite?pagename=Home&Language=EN_GB

Jo xxx


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## jojo

gerrit said:


> Striking is an essential right and so it should maintain. It is scandalous enough the EU wants to put even more limits on the powers of labour unions. Previous generisations have been campaigning years and years to get the workers' rights we have now instead of having to work 6 days a week and have no say whatsoever.
> 
> It is obvious one has to strike when it has the most impact. Otherwise the strike would go unnoticed and have no effect at all.
> 
> I don't know what exactly these folks are striking for ; if it is any valid thing, then good luck to them. Their positions, salaries, providing for their families etc may be part of the reason why they are doing this. It's not like anyone is going to strike just to bully people. A strike is usually the last resort when negotiating failed. If we revoke that right to strike, then we go back to the 19th century when staffmembers were de facto slaves with no rights.


We are not discussing the rights or wrongs of the strike on this thread Gerrit. But briefly, they're striking due to their 350,000€ pa being cut! But you're entitled to your opinion

:focus:

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky

jojo said:


> Aena's (spanish aviation authority) website says this - not sure what it means?????? doesnt sound too good tho???
> 
> "El Gobierno decreta la militarización del control del espacio aéreo
> Debido al abandono masivo por parte de los controladores aéreos de sus puestos de trabajo, Aena recomienda a todos los pasajeros que no acudan a los aeropuertos y contacten con su compañía aérea."
> 
> Welcome to Aena's Website - Aena.es - Spanish airports and airspace
> 
> Jo xxx


Are you completely out of your mind Jojo?? !!
Spanish with no translation, what ever next. Bed without breakfast, eggs with out bacon??

_The government decrees military control of air space due to the massive walk out of the air traffic controllers. AENA is recommending that passengers do not go to airports and that they contact the air companies._


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## gerrit

jojo said:


> We are not discussing the rights or wrongs of the strike on this thread Gerrit. But briefly, they're striking due to their 350,000€ pa being cut! But you're entitled to your opinion
> 
> :focus:
> 
> Jo xxx


I know it was off-topic, I just felt I needed to react to someone posting that strikers should be replaced on the spot with those who wish to work. That is just a very dangerous thought. Our forefathers faught very hard to give workers rights as opposed to the nearly slavery working conditions of the past. To take away the forces of the labour unions would bring any worker in a very vulnerable position and thus the labour unions should not be touched or questioned IMO.

Sorry if that was off-topic ... 

That said I'm surprised the air traffic has not been severely disrupted already by mother nature. I talked to my parents on the phone and they said it was the coldest period in ages, with extreme chaos in all kinds of traffic as a consequence, and apparently it will get even colder. Weither they'll be coming over to Spain for a visit is very doubtful as my mother has a fear of flying and with the roads in dangerous conditions it is doubtful if it's safe to hit the road now.


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## littleredrooster

gerrit said:


> I know it was off-topic, I just felt I needed to react to someone posting that strikers should be replaced on the spot with those who wish to work. That is just a very dangerous thought. Our forefathers faught very hard to give workers rights as opposed to the nearly slavery working conditions of the past. To take away the forces of the labour unions would bring any worker in a very vulnerable position and thus the labour unions should not be touched or questioned IMO.
> 
> Sorry if that was off-topic ...
> 
> That said I'm surprised the air traffic has not been severely disrupted already by mother nature. I talked to my parents on the phone and they said it was the coldest period in ages, with extreme chaos in all kinds of traffic as a consequence, and apparently it will get even colder. Weither they'll be coming over to Spain for a visit is very doubtful as my mother has a fear of flying and with the roads in dangerous conditions it is doubtful if it's safe to hit the road now.


Slavery was abolished many many years ago, along with kids working down mines and many other diabolical working practices.

We now have limited working hours, health and safety and all the rest of it.
I don't say that everything is perfect or there is no longer a role for unions, however where public safety and security are at stake, this is and should be given priority over petty disputes.

When "workers" take on jobs of major responsibility relating to the safety and security of many thousands of people, they surely must have sufficient intelligence to know that it is not like walking out of a car factory, just because there wasn't enough sugar in their coffee.

Surely this is part of the reason that they are paid wages far in excess of the average worker and should therefore be expected to behave in a much more responsible manner.


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## jojo

Pesky Wesky said:


> Are you completely out of your mind Jojo?? !!
> Spanish with no translation, what ever next. Bed without breakfast, eggs with out bacon??


 (google translate couldnt do it lol!!) 

Thank you 

Jo xxx


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## MaidenScotland

I am supposed to fly to Madrid this evening and then on to Alicante... I have heard nothing from Iberia and there is no announcements at Cairo... I will go to the airport if I don't hear otherwise


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## Pesky Wesky

MaidenScotland said:


> I am supposed to fly to Madrid this evening and then on to Alicante... I have heard nothing from Iberia and there is no announcements at Cairo... I will go to the airport if I don't hear otherwise


Here, and I stress that it's here Maiden, the government has told people not to go to the airports. I'm just trying to find smth about the situation now, so hang on a min!

It's also icy cold here today and some airports would have had problems any way today


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## MaidenScotland

Pesky Wesky said:


> Here, and I stress that it's here Maiden, the government has told people not to go to the airports. I'm just trying to find smth about the situation now, so hang on a min!




thanks... I will keep popping back to see the latest.


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## jojo

My OH is trawling the internet and aviation sites obsessively. Apparently the spanish air space isnt opening now until 6pm this evening???! 

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky

OK, here's some background to the strike in English. You've also got some info on the wikileaks and and the new pension reform here!!
Taken from the El País in English link on Alcalaina's blog. I can never get into the damn thing on my own
http://www.elpais.com/misc/herald/herald.pdf


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## Veronica

jojo said:


> (google translate couldnt do it lol!!)
> 
> Thank you
> 
> Jo xxx


IM translator did it without any problem.

Translation Portal - Im Translator

Much better than google translator.

Another good one is Translate.eu


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## MaidenScotland

gerrit said:


> Striking is an essential right and so it should maintain. It is scandalous enough the EU wants to put even more limits on the powers of labour unions. Previous generisations have been campaigning years and years to get the workers' rights we have now instead of having to work 6 days a week and have no say whatsoever.
> 
> It is obvious one has to strike when it has the most impact. Otherwise the strike would go unnoticed and have no effect at all.
> 
> I don't know what exactly these folks are striking for ; if it is any valid thing, then good luck to them. Their positions, salaries, providing for their families etc may be part of the reason why they are doing this. It's not like anyone is going to strike just to bully people. A strike is usually the last resort when negotiating failed. If we revoke that right to strike, then we go back to the 19th century when staffmembers were de facto slaves with no rights.




Gerrit ... I must ask do you deliberately try and wind others up?
We are worried about our flights.....and you want to twitter on about the right to strike, to be quite honest I at this particular moment in time don't give a fig about their rights I am only want to know if I am getting to Spain or not.


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## Stravinsky

MaidenScotland said:


> Gerrit ... I must ask do you deliberately try and wind others up?
> We are worried about our flights.....and you want to twitter on about the right to strike, to be quite honest I at this particular moment in time don't give a fig about their rights I am only want to know if I am getting to Spain or not.


Well according to the latest reports on SKY, the answer is not.
Most of the air traffic control people havent turned in. Those that have are saying they are too ill / stressed to operate the system. The Govt called in military, but they cannot actually operate the ATC and all they can do is try to get the staff to do it .... which they apprantly won't. Doctors are being called in to screen those that have turned up. All ATC is suspended now and for at least the near future today. Thats the latest SKY anyway.


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## Pesky Wesky

Ok, after a quick whizz through I've seen that AENA is talking about opening things up at 13:00.
Half of the traffic controllers have turned up, but are refusung to work(??!!)
The government is having crisis meetings and is thinking of calling a "State of Alarm" (State of crisis??)


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## Stravinsky

Pesky Wesky said:


> Ok, after a quick whizz through I've seen that AENA is talking about opening things up at 13:00.
> Half of the traffic controllers have turned up, but are refusung to work(??!!)
> The government is having crisis meetings and is thinking of calling a "State of Alarm" (State of crisis??)


But from whats being reported, they cant open anything without qualified ATC staff, and there arent any. Its reported that the miltary cant actually operate the ATC, and can only try to persuade the existing qualified staff to do so


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## jojo

The Spanish deputy priminister has announced that any ATC who doesnt report ofr work and is not found unwell, then he/she will face being arrested, placed in custody and prosecuted!??!! 

Hhhmmm, that'll scare em NOT!!!? This really doesnt help the spanish economy and their reliance on tourism does it! Meanwhile, my OH is catatonic, I thought it would be nice to have him stranded here, but oooooohhhhhh nooooo!!!!!

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky

*From El País
Sábado 4 de diciembre*
*2.00.* Rubalcaba amenaza con declarar el estado de alarma , lo que significaría movilizar obligatoriamente a todos los controladores aéreos y aquellos que no acudan a trabajar serán puestos a disposición judicial por incurrir en un delito que acarrea graves penas de prisión.
*8.00*. Solo la mitad de los trabajadores de control acude a su puesto en el turno de mañana, pero se niegan a trabajar alegando problemas médicos, según AENA.
*09.30*. AENA pide a los pasajeros que no acudan a los aeropuertos de momento ya que no está previsto que se abra el espacio aéreo antes de las 13.00.
*10.00.*. Arranca el Consejo de Ministros extraordinario.

Rough translation from Im translator (thanks Veonica!)

2.00. Rubalcaba threatens to declare the state of alarm, which it would mean to mobilize obligatorily to all the air-traffic controllers and those that do not come to work will be put at judicial disposal for incurring a crime that transports serious sorrow of prison.
8.00. Only the half of the workpeople of control comes to his position in the shift of tomorrow, but they refuse to work alleging medical problems, according to AENA.
09.30. AENA asks the passengers not to come to the airports at the moment since it is not foreseen that the air space is opened before the 13.00.
10.00.. It starts the extraordinary Cabinet.


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## jojo

How many air traffic controllers do they have on any one shift ??

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky

Stravinsky said:


> But from whats being reported, they cant open anything without qualified ATC staff, and there arent any. Its reported that the miltary cant actually operate the ATC, and can only try to persuade the existing qualified staff to do so


Yes, the latest time that's been reported for opening is still 13:00, but I don't think people are very hopeful. If the mili people aren't trained up to operate this, I hope they don't just push it through. Imagine 
Can't see a quick solution to this one, can you??
Got to go and get ready to take my daughter riding. It'll take me about 15 mins just to get the ice off the car. It's frozen solid!


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## Stravinsky

Im not sure how they can be working to 1300 hrs. The existing staff in are refusing to work, and thats why the medical staff have been called in to check them over

If they make them work, and then theres an accident, there would be terrible consequences


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## jojo

Stravinsky said:


> Im not sure how they can be working to 1300 hrs. The existing staff in are refusing to work, and thats why the medical staff have been called in to check them over
> 
> If they make them work, and then theres an accident, there would be terrible consequences



As terrible as that sounds, that is a very good point and could cause horrendous consequences!!

Jo xxx


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## MaidenScotland

Still no email but this is on Iberias website

Ibera has to cancel all its flights until tomorrow Sunday 5 at 6:00 am...
04.12.10
Iberia kindly requests its customers not to go to the airport

Cancellations due to the air traffic controllers...
04.12.10
• According to the latest information, Madrid Barajas airport could resume operations at 12:00 noon December 4


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## jimenato

Pesky Wesky said:


> incurring a crime that transports serious sorrow of prison.


:confused2:


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## MaidenScotland

this from cairo airport

IBERIA AIRLINES IB3735 Dec 4 2010 23:40 Madrid 1 1 On-Time


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## jojo

My OH has had both the flights he booked for today cancelled - not happy! Has just booked a flight with easy jet tonight, but it looks doubtful. He has one booked for tomorrow - then thats it til tuesday. He's like a thing possessed, booking anything and everything. He books with a credit card and gets the money back if they cancel. Also as he's a frequent flyer he can move dates without penalty, in case anyone thinks we're made of money!!!

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9

jojo said:


> Most union leaders from what I've seen simply want to overthrow governments cos they want the job - but most of them are bullies and have failed to enter politics by using brain power cos they dont have any! Just my opinion
> 
> Jo xxx


Come on, Jo....are you seriously suggesting that whoever is the leader of the union of air traffic controllers wants to be PM?
How are they 'bullies'? If their members don't like what their leaders do, they can vote them out.
Yes, Union leaders take foolish decisions...quite often these days, alas. But union members are workers....ordinary people like you and me. In the UK millions of workers belong to Trades Unions. It is a democratic right in a free society. There are no free trades unions in communist or fascist societies.
It should also be remembered that most of the rights we take for granted have come about as a result of trade union pressure on governments.
I'm hoping to fly to Heathrow on Tuesday and imo this strike, like most these days, will achieve nothing apart from annoying ordinary trades unionists...like me.
But I will not take part in union-bashing per se as our unions are the only shield we have against unreasonable employers.
Many times in my professional life I have chuckled at the spectacle of a colleague who, previously having been vehemently anti-union, asking for a membership form when s/he gets treated unfairly in the workplace.
Being a kind person, I usually give them a form and refrain from saying 'I told you so'.


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## natalieml

jojo said:


> My OH has had both the flights he booked for today cancelled - not happy! Has just booked a flight with easy jet tonight, but it looks doubtful. He has one booked for tomorrow - then thats it til tuesday. He's like a thing possessed, booking anything and everything. He books with a credit card and gets the money back if they cancel. Also as he's a frequent flyer he can move dates without penalty, in case anyone thinks we're made of money!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


If he goes on Tuesday he can come back with me to Stanstead. Hope it's all sorted by then as it is Jamie's birthday and he will be gutted if I am not there.


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## jojo

natalieml said:


> If he goes on Tuesday he can come back with me to Stanstead. Hope it's all sorted by then as it is Jamie's birthday and he will be gutted if I am not there.


Welcome to Spain Nat!!! We had this for different reasons last year, altho my OH got stuck in the UK then so at least he could work, it was me going mad!!! This time he's here, desperate to get back and I think is about to sprout wings and fly himself back!

Jo xxx


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## natalieml

jojo said:


> Welcome to Spain Nat!!! We had this for different reasons last year, altho my OH got stuck in the UK then so at least he could work, it was me going mad!!! This time he's here, desperate to get back and I think is about to sprout wings and fly himself back!
> 
> Jo xxx


He can always do what we did to get here - drive 10 hours and take the ferry to Portsmouth. LOL


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## jojo

natalieml said:


> He can always do what we did to get here - drive 10 hours and take the ferry to Portsmouth. LOL



With my heap of a car?????????? you've seen it, it wouldnt make it. Mind you he is toying with trains at the moment

Jo xxx


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## natalieml

jojo said:


> With my heap of a car?????????? you've seen it, it wouldnt make it. Mind you he is toying with trains at the moment
> 
> Jo xxx


The ferry is lovely - it's got 2 cinemas and aswimming pool. It's like a mini cruise ship only you have to pay for everything on it. lol.

So I might be seeing hiom at the airport on Tuesday?


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## MaidenScotland

Some flights were operating to parts of Spain, including the Canary Islands and Majorca but flagship carrier Iberia, and budget airline Ryanair said they were cancelling all their flights until Sunday morning.


But as yet I have not had an email from Iberia...


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## leedsutdgem

natalieml said:


> The ferry is lovely - it's got 2 cinemas and aswimming pool. It's like a mini cruise ship only you have to pay for everything on it. lol.
> 
> So I might be seeing hiom at the airport on Tuesday?


Hi Nat didnt realise you were on here LOLOL. Looks like they are back working now so should be ok for tomorrow. Gemma


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## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> Come on, Jo....are you seriously suggesting that whoever is the leader of the union of air traffic controllers wants to be PM?
> How are they 'bullies'? If their members don't like what their leaders do, they can vote them out.
> Yes, Union leaders take foolish decisions...quite often these days, alas. But union members are workers....ordinary people like you and me. In the UK millions of workers belong to Trades Unions. It is a democratic right in a free society. There are no free trades unions in communist or fascist societies.
> It should also be remembered that most of the rights we take for granted have come about as a result of trade union pressure on governments.
> I'm hoping to fly to Heathrow on Tuesday and imo this strike, like most these days, will achieve nothing apart from annoying ordinary trades unionists...like me.
> But I will not take part in union-bashing per se as our unions are the only shield we have against unreasonable employers.
> Many times in my professional life I have chuckled at the spectacle of a colleague who, previously having been vehemently anti-union, asking for a membership form when s/he gets treated unfairly in the workplace.
> Being a kind person, I usually give them a form and refrain from saying 'I told you so'.


Just a reminder that the ATC union leaders did NOT condone this wildcat strike, which is why they all rang in sick.

I am all for the right to strike but this was just out of order, with no warning and at the start of the puente. They should have sat down and organised something with the other unions affected by the AENA sell-off (their proposed action will be announced on 9 Dec).

The privatisation of AENA means that workers contracts are being redrawn and costs will be cut on lots of things other than pay - there are safety issues too. 

_(Sorry for the absence of apostrophes but they are still coming out in Unicode #&;180)_


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## jojo

leedsutdgem said:


> Looks like they are back working now so should be ok for tomorrow. Gemma


According to Aena, Spanish air space closed til at least 7pm this evening. All my OHs flights have been cancelled for today. Has a couple tomorrow that hopefully will go

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky

jimenato; said:


> :confused2: Originally Posted by *Pesky Wesky*
> _ incurring a crime that transports serious sorrow of prison._


Originally posted by PW, but not translated by PW, remember!!



> aquellos que no acudan a trabajar serán puestos a disposición judicial por incurrir en un delito que acarrea graves penas de prisión.


Those who do not go to work will be brought to justice for committing a crime which is punishable by severe prision sentences


PS What *IS* the matter with the apostrophes, percentage signs and all those things


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## Pesky Wesky

We are officially in a State of Alarm,  (don't panic Mr. Mainwaring) and they have asked this to run for 15 days although it should all be sorted out well before that. The air traffic controllers have been warned that they are now answerable to military law and they could face prison sentences of up to 6 years imprisonment if they do not get back to work


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## Stravinsky

Pesky Wesky said:


> We are officially in a State of Alarm,  (don't panic Mr. Mainwaring) and they have asked this to run for 15 days although it should all be sorted out well before that. The air traffic controllers have been warned that they are now answerable to military law and they could face prison sentences of up to 6 years imprisonment if they do not get back to work


Its interesting. Having made it clear they are not fit for duty, if they are made to work and then theres a plane crash due to ATC negligence, is the Spanish Government going to be held responsible


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## gerrit

MaidenScotland said:


> Gerrit ... I must ask do you deliberately try and wind others up?
> We are worried about our flights.....and you want to twitter on about the right to strike, to be quite honest I at this particular moment in time don't give a fig about their rights I am only want to know if I am getting to Spain or not.


I never ever post something for the sake of winding up. I however think the post stating that whoever strikes should be fired and replaced by someone willing to work was grotesquely uncalled for. I didn't want to come across as wanting to wind up and apologise if I undeliberately did. Not the intention.

That said, I understand your concerns and hope you'll be allright and arriving in Spain safe and sound. Any news as yet if you'll all be OK and arriving as scheduled?


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## Pesky Wesky

Stravinsky said:


> Its interesting. Having made it clear they are not fit for duty, if they are made to work and then theres a plane crash due to ATC negligence, is the Spanish Government going to be held responsible


Well, I suppose the idea is that with the threat of a jail sentence hanging over them the controllers will push their plate of caviar away, look at their Rolex, decide to get in their Audis and do a spot of work. Therefore the military ATC will not be needed/ used
But who knows??????????


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## jimenato

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well, I suppose the idea is that with the threat of a jail sentence hanging over them the controllers will push their plate of caviar away, look at their Rolex, decide to get in their Audis and do a spot of work. Therefore the military ATC will not be needed/ used
> But who knows??????????


Audis? Not for this lot!!!

Outrage in Spain over soaring air traffic controllers’ pay - Times Online



> Of 2,300 controllers, ten were paid between €810,000 (£725,000) and €900,000 last year. A further 226 were paid between €450,000 and €540,000 and 701 were paid between €270,000 and €360,000.
> 
> The average basic salary is €200,000 but most double or triple this amount by working overtime.


I've no sympathy whatever. Train up a new lot and sack the whole greedy selfish bunch.


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## Pesky Wesky

***


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## Pesky Wesky

jimenato said:


> Audis? Not for this lot!!!
> 
> Outrage in Spain over soaring air traffic controllers’ pay - Times Online
> 
> 
> 
> I've no sympathy whatever. Train up a new lot and sack the whole greedy selfish bunch.


To those of us who have a mere Seat Ibiza an Audi is the lap of luxury 

Totally agree with your finishing sentence, although it's human nature to take as much as you can- and they were allowed to for so long. This should have been stopped years and years ago


----------



## MaidenScotland

I should leave for the airport in 3 hours and as yet still no email from Iberia to say if the flight is cancelled so maybe that is good news.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

MaidenScotland said:


> I should leave for the airport in 3 hours and as yet still no email from Iberia to say if the flight is cancelled so maybe that is good news.


3 hooouuurrrs!
Plenty of time for the situation to change 3 or 4 times Maiden!!!!!!!


----------



## MaidenScotland

I have just tried to book in on line as I thought that might give me a clue... but you can't do it from Cairo..


----------



## MaidenScotland

from the bbc 

The government has stepped in with the firmest possible measures. For the first time ever, the government has declared a state of alert in Spain, with immediate effect.

This means air traffic controllers are officially mobilised. If they refuse to work they will be committing the crime of disobedience according to Spain's military penal code.

These are extremely tough measures being taken by the government, which says the controllers are holding the country hostage and that is unacceptable.

The controllers can earn 350,000 euros ($470,000; £297,000). There is not a lot of sympathy for them in a country with 20% unemployment.


----------



## gerrit

i'd like to read more details on the reason for the strike before making any judgements about weither the govt reacts in the right way or not.

But it sounds like they're trying to get the air traffic back up to normal, which I assume is good news for most people here.


----------



## jojo

gerrit said:


> i'd like to read more details on the reason for the strike before making any judgements about weither the govt reacts in the right way or not.
> 
> But it sounds like they're trying to get the air traffic back up to normal, which I assume is good news for most people here.


Gerrit dont worry your pretty little head about it! Some strikes are good and some are simply spoilt brats having tantrums! If you want to talk about it, do some reading and start a thread in the lounge!

Jo xxx


----------



## mrypg9

Thader said:


> Strikes are normally planned when they will cause the most disruption...Unions don't give a hoot about the heartache it can cause. There are plenty of people looking for work.. the Company should state that anyone who doesn't want to work will be replaced by someone who does.
> 
> CD


Yes, they should go out on the streets and recruit more air traffic controllers....
After all, anyone can do it...
Jesus wept....
There is no doubt that this unofficial action, which is condemned by the union leadership - but hey, don't let facts get in the way of a bit of jolly old union-bashing - is untimely and ill-advised. Frankly, I don't give two hoots who operates ATC,the state or a private undertaking, as long as the highest safety standards are upheld. Air Traffic Controllers have one of the most stressful and responsible jobs in the world and deserve high pay, certainly more than some socially useless people get. (Bankers, Lady Gaga and Nick Clegg spring to mind here, amongst others..)
Unions are not alien entities run by people with horns and little tails, you know. Millions of ordinary people belong to unions and ironically the strongest unions/professional associations are for the best paid professionals these days....doctors, lawyers, teachers,airline pilots, air traffic controllers, high ranking civil servants...... these are the powerful unions in the twenty-first century.
In the UK strikes can only be called after an independent ballot, usually conducted by the Electoral Reform Society. The days of wildcat strikes are long gone, thankfully.
The right to join a union and the right to strike are fundamental rights in a democratic society. The first thing Hitler did in 1933 was to outlaw independent trades unions. There were no free trades unions in the Communist bloc states.
And wasn't it deliciously ironic that Mrs Thatcher, scourge of British Trades Unions, was one of the most vocal supporters of Solidarnosc, the Polish......Trades Union???
Let's save the union-bashing for the pages of The Daily Maul and the Sexpress.
And I'm just as keen as anyone else to get to see my family before Christmas. This unofficial 'sick-in' is foolish and misguided. So if I'm affected I shall curse and moan at the controllers..
But if I thought the cause was just, I'd put my selfish feelings aside, grit my teeth, find a quiet corner of the airport lounge...and wait.


----------



## jojo

ok, well its over for now. None of us know the facts for sure, so no point in raking thru the mess!

Jo xxx


----------



## mrypg9

jojo said:


> ok, well its over for now. None of us know the facts for sure, so no point in raking thru the mess!
> 
> Jo xxx


Are you sure it's over.....just checked on bbc site, it says all airports remain closed until some time tomorrow, the state of alert will continue for fifteen days. Not all ATC s have returned to work.
You can ascertain the facts , or rather the background to the UNOFFICIAL action by ATCs, by reading the Spanish or British quality press.
We don't need to be in the dark about much these days, thankfully, which means we can make reasoned judgments and not rely on gut reaction.
Most airports here and in the UK should be operating normally by Tuesday.


----------



## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> Are you sure it's over.....


 No! lol, but flights are now getting back to normal and thats what the issue is about! :clap2:lane: 

Jo xxx


----------



## nigele2

jojo said:


> Gerrit dont worry your pretty little head about it! Jo xxx


What!!!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

BBC news
BBC News - Striking Spain air traffic controllers return to work


----------



## jojo

My OH has finally landed in the UK!! His flight was delayed but only by a couple of hours, which is better than he was expecting! Apparently Malaga was chaos and the plane was very full, but at least he's there now - good old Aer Lingus!
Jo xxx


----------



## Sonrisa

I wonder if Maiden has finally made it to Spain?


----------



## Pesky Wesky

BUT...
Did Maidenscotland make it????


----------



## Stravinsky

I'm guessing if she hadn't we would have heard by now


----------



## Sonrisa

I hope she got on that flight, I think today is her grandson birthday and she really wanted to be there. 

We havent' heard from her so I'm guessing that she managed to fly to Spain? OTherwise I'm sure she'll be online moaning about it


----------



## Sonrisa

Stravinsky said:


> I'm guessing if she hadn't we would have heard by now


Ah, I didn't see your post, I supposed it crossed mine. My thoughts exactly. No news, good news.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Anybody got any information about the story from the controllers point of view?
There has to be another side to things here that isn't being given coverage. Not all of the thousands of controllers that are employed in Spain can be so money grabbing and selfish, can they? I saw a controller briefly on tv yesterday who was in tears saying that the Guardia Civil had come in (where I don't know exactly) with pistols and forced them to sit down and work. Another is quoted in the press giving "a million apologies" and saying they hadn't wanted to take it so far, but that she didn't rule out more action, that Christmas is just around the corner, and they were working under "slave like conditions"
¿¿¿????
Info in English or Spanish please.


----------



## Stravinsky

Pesky Wesky said:


> I saw a controller briefly on tv yesterday who was in tears saying that the Guardia Civil had come in (where I don't know exactly) with pistols and forced them to sit down and work.


If that is true, in view of the kind of work they are doing and the lives that depend on the controllers making the right decisions, then it's an act of stupidity. Thats not defending the controllers btw, just thinking a stressed controller working at gunpoint isnt going to be too concentrated on his job


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Stravinsky said:


> If that is true, in view of the kind of work they are doing and the lives that depend on the controllers making the right decisions, then it's an act of stupidity. Thats not defending the controllers btw, just thinking a stressed controller working at gunpoint isnt going to be too concentrated on his job


Yes, and yesterday, how many were really up to working their shift? Had they been up all night??

I'm not particularly interested in defending the controllers, but I feel the info we're being given is very one sided - perhaps necessarily so, but it would be nice to know more about the controllers situation.


----------



## casa99

Pesky Wesky said:


> Anybody got any information about the story from the controllers point of view?
> There has to be another side to things here that isn't being given coverage. Not all of the thousands of controllers that are employed in Spain can be so money grabbing and selfish, can they? I saw a controller briefly on tv yesterday who was in tears saying that the Guardia Civil had come in (where I don't know exactly) with pistols and forced them to sit down and work. Another is quoted in the press giving "a million apologies" and saying they hadn't wanted to take it so far, but that she didn't rule out more action, that Christmas is just around the corner, and they were working under "slave like conditions"
> ¿¿¿????
> Info in English or Spanish please.


Pesky I was watching sky news this a.m. they had a reporter at barajas madrid airport reporting the easing situation of flights in and out of the airport who stated that it was zapatero who called in the national guard to get the controlers back to work as they ( controllers ) were quote getting over 3 hundred thousand euros per year for their job. The reporter then said that it is possible zapatero will if the situation does not improve nationalise the airports and bring in new contracts at much reduced wages for the said controllers, this may be just a threat but I guess it could happenlane:lane:lane:


----------



## Pesky Wesky

casa99 said:


> Pesky I was watching sky news this a.m. they had a reporter at barajas madrid airport reporting the easing situation of flights in and out of the airport who stated that it was zapatero who called in the national guard to get the controlers back to work as they ( controllers ) were quote getting over 3 hundred thousand euros per year for their job. The reporter then said that it is possible zapatero will if the situation does not improve nationalise the airports and bring in new contracts at much reduced wages for the said controllers, this may be just a threat but I guess it could happenlane:lane:lane:


Yes, it's clear in the article that Jimenato posted from the Times that their salaries are monsterous!!


> Of 2,300 controllers, ten were paid between €810,000 (£725,000) and €900,000 last year. A further 226 were paid between €450,000 and €540,000 and 701 were paid between €270,000 and €360,000.
> The average basic salary is €200,000 but most double or triple this amount by working overtime.
> In contrast, José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero, the Spanish Prime Minister, is paid €91,982 a year and the average salary in Spain is €18,087, according to government figures.


But they obviously still think they've got a bad deal some how.
More from the horses mouth, please!


----------



## Joturke

Here is a heated opinion of one air traffic controller, which has sparked a debate running to more than 5000 comments:


Controladores Aéreos y Otras Hierbas: A ver si nos entendemos


----------



## Alcalaina

The reason they are up in arms is that AENA is being restructured in order to make it attractive to potential buyers, and they are changing all the contracts and terms of employment. This means that instead of getting paid overtime rates, they will still work the same hours but for their basic rate. 

The reason they are required to work so much overtime is because they haven't been refilling vacant posts and there aren't enough ATCs to cover if they work normal hours. There are also concerns about safety issues due to the long hours worked. Personally I don't fancy the idea of an ATC falling asleep on the job.

The issue is not how much they earn, which is indeed astronomical, but the fact that their contracts are being changed without their agreement. Their union leaders agreed to the change, but without consulting the members, who objected to this and all rang in sick.

This week the low-paid workers - baggage handlers etc - are going to meet to decide on what action they are going to take, because their contracts are being redrawn too. Which is what this post was about, originally.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Joturke said:


> Here is a heated opinion of one air traffic controller, which has sparked a debate running to more than 5000 comments:
> 
> 
> Controladores Aéreos y Otras Hierbas: A ver si nos entendemos


Thank you Joturke, that's what I wanted, opinions from the controllers themselves. I have enough info about the governments point of view.

Reading quickly through this blog this controller says...
She(?) doesn't earn over 300,000 euros , nor 200,000E, nor half that.
She also talks about the Guardia Civil going into the rest area and making the controllers there work.
She says that she has to work 200 hours a month in shifts of morning, afternoon and evening. A "normal" worker works 40 hours a week = 160 hours, so she works the equivalent of 5 weeks in one month.

And...


> Es seguro volar con control militar? Cuando hayan recibido la formación correspondiente lo será. Ahora mismo ni de coña.


Is it safe to fly with a military controller? When they've received the pertinent training it will be. Until then don't even think about it.

She also says things that I don't understand like


> No somos controladores suficientes, y es lo que hay. No damos abasto coño.


_There aren't enough controllers, although they exist. We can't cope FFS. _What does this mean?


----------



## Sonrisa

The translation of "y es lo que hay" isn't quite right, it would be more along these lines:

We are not enough controllers, that's the issue. We cannot cope.


----------



## mattferrier

gerrit said:


> Striking is an essential right and so it should maintain. It is scandalous enough the EU wants to put even more limits on the powers of labour unions. Previous generisations have been campaigning years and years to get the workers' rights we have now instead of having to work 6 days a week and have no say whatsoever.
> 
> It is obvious one has to strike when it has the most impact. Otherwise the strike would go unnoticed and have no effect at all.
> 
> I don't know what exactly these folks are striking for ; if it is any valid thing, then good luck to them. Their positions, salaries, providing for their families etc may be part of the reason why they are doing this. It's not like anyone is going to strike just to bully people. A strike is usually the last resort when negotiating failed. If we revoke that right to strike, then we go back to the 19th century when staffmembers were de facto slaves with no rights.


i will choose my words carefully as dont wish to be banned or have the post deleted. but what kind of idiot would defend an un-announced strike to something so serious and potentialy dangerous as air traffic space!
i happened to be boarding my plane on friday to get back to england for this weekend when we were pulled off to wait around to find out what was going on. if they wanted to strike there should have been some notice so that people could have made alternate arranements and not had to travel to an airport for a flight that was never going to take off!!!
i have no sympathy for people striking in a country where they are fortunate to have a job right now. how stupid can you get???


----------



## Alcalaina

mattferrier said:


> i will choose my words carefully as dont wish to be banned or have the post deleted. but what kind of idiot would defend an un-announced strike to something so serious and potentialy dangerous as air traffic space!
> i happened to be boarding my plane on friday to get back to england for this weekend when we were pulled off to wait around to find out what was going on. if they wanted to strike there should have been some notice so that people could have made alternate arranements and not had to travel to an airport for a flight that was never going to take off!!!
> i have no sympathy for people striking in a country where they are fortunate to have a job right now. how stupid can you get???


THEY WERE NOT STRIKING! They had no mandate to strike, the Union was against it. They just rang in sick!

This is why I'm so fed up with these guys, their action brings unions into disrepute when the union wasn't, in this case, behaving irresponsibly.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Dizzie Izzie said:


> The translation of "y es lo que hay" isn't quite right, it would be more along these lines:
> 
> We are not enough controllers, that's the issue. We cannot cope.


Ah yes, thanks Dizzie. I hadn't read it right :doh:


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Alcalaina said:


> THEY WERE NOT STRIKING! They had no mandate to strike, the Union was against it. They just rang in sick!
> 
> This is why I'm so fed up with these guys, their action brings unions into disrepute when the union wasn't, in this case, behaving irresponsibly.


But who advised them to ring in sick?
Was it the unions???:confused2:


----------



## Alcalaina

Pesky Wesky said:


> But who advised them to ring in sick?
> Was it the unions???:confused2:


Not the union leaders. Militant members using Twitter I expect.


----------



## mattferrier

Alcalaina said:


> Not the union leaders. Militant members using Twitter I expect.


i dont care who approved it. workers/unions it makes no difference.
for individuals knowing how important their job is to people in the air to then decide that they dont care about the safety of fellow human beings, have no right to expect to have a job of such importance.
a lot has been made of the disruption to people like me who have been left stranded, but it is the safety of the people that were already in the air and due to head into their air space that were at risk.


----------



## Alcalaina

mattferrier said:


> i dont care who approved it. workers/unions it makes no difference.
> for individuals knowing how important their job is to people in the air to then decide that they dont care about the safety of fellow human beings, have no right to expect to have a job of such importance.
> a lot has been made of the disruption to people like me who have been left stranded, but it is the safety of the people that were already in the air and due to head into their air space that were at risk.


I agree that the disruption factor to people on the ground is appalling, but do you have any evidence that they walked out while planes were still in the air?


----------



## mattferrier

Alcalaina said:


> I agree that the disruption factor to people on the ground is appalling, but do you have any evidence that they walked out while planes were still in the air?


while i was on the ramp boarding the plane some one rushed down to pull us off. if there was any notice they wouldnt have been boarding us.
they simply didnt have a clue what was going on.
there will certainly have been planes already in the air that would have taken off from other locations that would have needed to cross the air space to get to their destination.
so i cant see how it couldnt have affected others already in the air.


----------



## Guest

Sorry if I get something wrong, I am new here. But was not the original posting about planned strikes for xmas? Then the actions by the ATC people happened. Are these not separate and unrelated developments? Of course I understand that any thing concerning strikes and air ports gets in the same thread, but I would be happy if someone who knows better could explain.

Personally I am worried because my gf is supposed to fly back to Japan on the 24th. My guess is that if there will be strikes the 24th will be chosen, a nice day and evening to spend at home, no?


----------



## Stravinsky

VidaTombola said:


> Sorry if I get something wrong, I am new here. But was not the original posting about planned strikes for xmas? Then the actions by the ATC people happened. Are these not separate and unrelated developments? Of course I understand that any thing concerning strikes and air ports gets in the same thread, but I would be happy if someone who knows better could explain.
> 
> Personally I am worried because my gf is supposed to fly back to Japan on the 24th. My guess is that if there will be strikes the 24th will be chosen, a nice day and evening to spend at home, no?


It was, but unfortunately it seems these strikes may go on from now until Christmas .... the announcement of when the dates will be is supposed to be made on the 9th. If it goes ahead now, who knows as it seems strikers will be taken to the end of the runway and shot


----------



## Stravinsky

mattferrier said:


> while i was on the ramp boarding the plane some one rushed down to pull us off. if there was any notice they wouldnt have been boarding us.
> they simply didnt have a clue what was going on.
> there will certainly have been planes already in the air that would have taken off from other locations that would have needed to cross the air space to get to their destination.
> so i cant see how it couldnt have affected others already in the air.


There is very little chance that planes in the air would have been left with no air traffic control cover at all. Had that happened, you would have known about it.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Apparently the controllers didn't ask for sick leave as such. They adhered to article 34.4 of the Air Safety Law which obliges aeronautical personel to not carry out their duties "if their pysical or mental faculties are diminished" as explained here. 

El *artículo* *34.4* de la *Ley* 21/2003, de 7 de julio, de *Seguridad* *Aérea*, impone al personal aeronáutico la obligación de abstenerse de ejercer las funciones y actividades propias de sus oficios «en caso de disminución de la capacidad física o psíquica requerida», obligación legal en la que el colectivo pretende amparar el abandono de sus puestos.

They decided to do this after the government passed the new law.


----------



## jojo

VidaTombola said:


> Sorry if I get something wrong, I am new here. But was not the original posting about planned strikes for xmas? Then the actions by the ATC people happened. Are these not separate and unrelated developments? Of course I understand that any thing concerning strikes and air ports gets in the same thread, but I would be happy if someone who knows better could explain.
> 
> Personally I am worried because my gf is supposed to fly back to Japan on the 24th. My guess is that if there will be strikes the 24th will be chosen, a nice day and evening to spend at home, no?


These strikes are connected because its all to do with the aviation authority changing employment contracts I believe. So its gonna be uncertain times for flying until the whole thing comes to a head! I'm due to fly to Gatwick on 22nd, so fingers crossed!!

Jo xxx


----------



## Guest

aha jojo - yes, after some thought, ofc they are connected even though different beasts; one "wild" and coming ones sanctuated by the union etc. I have a feeling this will be messy... On the other hand I am happy to have my gf here longer


----------



## jojo

VidaTombola said:


> aha jojo - yes, after some thought, ofc they are connected even though different beasts; one "wild" and coming ones sanctuated by the union etc. I have a feeling this will be messy... On the other hand I am happy to have my gf here longer



We do have an annoying habit on here of digressing, we get chatting and stray off the main topìc sometimes! 

Jo xxx


----------



## jojo

Pesky Wesky said:


> BUT...
> Did Maidenscotland make it????



Rumour/facebook suggests that she is flying late tonight and will be in Spain tomorrow morning!

Jo xxx


----------



## MaidenScotland

Well here I am at Madrid airport, what a nightmare.
I received no communication from Iberia and at 6pm local time Cairo airport departures said my flight would be leaving on time. I arrived at the airpot to be told that no flight was available and to go to the local Iberia office which I of course did. I was finally told that I would be put up in a hotel and left last night 24 hours late.
I missed my grandsons birthday and I will have missed my daughter as she flew to Stanstead this morning but she will be back Friday.
Madrid is cold and pouring with rain
Maiden


----------



## Sonrisa

maidenscotland said:


> well here i am at madrid airport, what a nightmare.
> I received no communication from iberia and at 6pm local time cairo airport departures said my flight would be leaving on time. I arrived at the airpot to be told that no flight was available and to go to the local iberia office which i of course did. I was finally told that i would be put up in a hotel and left last night 24 hours late.
> I missed my grandsons birthday and i will have missed my daughter as she flew to stanstead this morning but she will be back friday.
> Madrid is cold and pouring with rain
> maiden


Welcome in Madrid


----------



## Pesky Wesky

MaidenScotland said:


> Well here I am at Madrid airport, what a nightmare.
> I received no communication from Iberia and at 6pm local time Cairo airport departures said my flight would be leaving on time. I arrived at the airpot to be told that no flight was available and to go to the local Iberia office which I of course did. I was finally told that I would be put up in a hotel and left last night 24 hours late.
> I missed my grandsons birthday and I will have missed my daughter as she flew to Stanstead this morning but she will be back Friday.
> Madrid is cold and pouring with rain
> Maiden


Yes, I can vouch for that!!
Do you usually go via Madrid Maiden? Do you know when you'll be flying out??


----------



## jojo

MaidenScotland said:


> Well here I am at Madrid airport, what a nightmare.
> I received no communication from Iberia and at 6pm local time Cairo airport departures said my flight would be leaving on time. I arrived at the airpot to be told that no flight was available and to go to the local Iberia office which I of course did. I was finally told that I would be put up in a hotel and left last night 24 hours late.
> I missed my grandsons birthday and I will have missed my daughter as she flew to Stanstead this morning but she will be back Friday.
> Madrid is cold and pouring with rain
> Maiden


FFS! Is there anything anyone can do hun????

Jo xxx


----------



## mrypg9

mattferrier said:


> i will choose my words carefully as dont wish to be banned or have the post deleted. but what kind of idiot would defend an un-announced strike to something so serious and potentialy dangerous as air traffic space!
> i happened to be boarding my plane on friday to get back to england for this weekend when we were pulled off to wait around to find out what was going on. if they wanted to strike there should have been some notice so that people could have made alternate arranements and not had to travel to an airport for a flight that was never going to take off!!!
> i have no sympathy for people striking in a country where they are fortunate to have a job right now. how stupid can you get???


You were inconvenienced, which is a nuisance. Your safety was not at risk. It might well be if the ATCs are overworked because of pressures to cut costs by hiring fewer staff. That is one of the possible outcomes of privatisation.
This mass sick-in is imo ill-advised, from the facts I have been able to ascertain from the quality press.
But I have the feeling that there is an undercurrent of union -bashing in some posts here.
Some strikes are foolish and have no effect other than to inconvenience the public. Others are necessary to defend basic rights. This isn't one of them, from what I can make out. I'm flying tomorrow and will be vexed if I get messed about and have long delays, all for no good reason.
But if the strike were for good reasons, I would try to put aside selfish thoughts of my own discomfort for a greater good, hard though it might be.
The logic of your last sentence is that in times of economic hardship people who have a job should put up with whatever their employers decide to impose upon them...really??? You are an employee yourself....does that also apply to you? Would you accept changes to your wage rate or contractual hours which substantially altered your working life and expectations?
I repeat: this unofficial action is indefensible. But we should not lay down general principles without considering all their possible outcomes.


----------



## jojo

The trouble with "the right to strike" is not fair tho! At worst its mob rule and is only ever going to be of use to people in jobs that matter anyway - so they have the unfair advantage, it gets noticed and causes disruption, so that they can hold the country to randsome! For example, who the heck is going is going to notice if I went on strike? Or if there were a sales rep strike....? Also the reasons for strike are varied and not all of them can be justified by everyone!???

IMO, the days of tyrannical employers and unfair work practices are pretty much gone (certainly for those who are in a position to strike), yes thanks in part to unions, but its now gone too far and Employers, in the main have to follow government guidelines. It should really be a partnership between workers and employers these days (no more them and us) who should all have a vested interest in their companies being successful

So I personally dont approve of strikes, it simply creates unrest, bad feeling and it ultimately doesnt do anyone any favours - even the strikers! And I certainly dont like union leaders who, it seems to me are simply trying to become bosses by way of the back door and only know how to disrupt!

Jo xx


----------



## Sonrisa

I have lived in countries where the right to strike does not exist and striking can pretty much send you to jail or get you deported. Slavery in these countries is common place and part of everyday life. 

Perhaps the days of unfair work practices would be back (althought I don't think they are really gone, but that's a different topic) if our right to strike was to be taken away from us.


----------



## Stravinsky

jojo said:


> The trouble with "the right to strike" is not fair tho! At worst its mob rule and is only ever going to be of use to people in jobs that matter anyway - so they have the unfair advantage, it gets noticed and causes disruption, so that they can hold the country to randsome! For example, who the heck is going is going to notice if I went on strike? Or if there were a sales rep strike....? Also the reasons for strike are varied and not all of them can be justified by everyone!???
> 
> IMO, the days of tyrannical employers and unfair work practices are pretty much gone (certainly for those who are in a position to strike), yes thanks in part to unions, but its now gone too far and Employers, in the main have to follow government guidelines. It should really be a partnership between workers and employers these days (no more them and us) who should all have a vested interest in their companies being successful
> 
> 
> Jo xx


Heh heh ... don't take this the wrong way Jo, but you have to be kidding me!!!
Unscrupulous employers are a thing of the past??? That's not the story I get coming back from friends and family in the UK. It may not seem so obvious now, but its still there.

Unions are a necessary evil I'm afraid to keep the balance. Sometimes it gets to a point where strike action is necessary, because to most big employers their workforce is something they want to control. Sometimes it affects us, sometimes it doesnt .... but without them people would find the workplace a much worse place then it is.

I've seen it from both sides Jo. As an employer in the 80's and 90's .... and as a Union Branch Chairman in the 70's ..... I even had to call a strike in the mid 70's (but for good reason)! The experience made me a better employer in the long term, but most employers only see things from their own point of view unfortunately.


----------



## jojo

Stravinsky said:


> Heh heh ... don't take this the wrong way Jo, but you have to be kidding me!!!
> Unscrupulous employers are a thing of the past??? That's not the story I get coming back from friends and family in the UK. It may not seem so obvious now, but its still there.
> 
> Unions are a necessary evil I'm afraid to keep the balance. Sometimes it gets to a point where strike action is necessary, because to most big employers their workforce is something they want to control. Sometimes it affects us, sometimes it doesnt .... but without them people would find the workplace a much worse place then it is.
> 
> I've seen it from both sides Jo. As an employer in the 80's and 90's .... and as a Union Branch Chairman in the 70's ..... I even had to call a strike in the mid 70's (but for good reason)! The experience made me a better employer in the long term, but most employers only see things from their own point of view unfortunately.


Unscrupulous employers can only operate if there are unscrupulous employees (people who are dodging the system for whatever reason)?? Of course its going on everywhere and probably always will and yes it so needs to be stamped out somehow. 

But correctly operating companies should be a partnership of employers and employees, but there is too much mistrust, cos as you say the employers only see things from their point of view, but so do the employees. The union leaders (the majority), IMO, are too busy empire building for themselves and trying to keep the workers needing them and I dont believe in this day and age, with all the employment laws etc that its necessary. When things are tough and everyone is struggling, it needs everyone to pull their weight and to be on the same side - no inhouse squabbling. Fortunately its been that attitude that has helped my husbands company to ride the recession. 

Jo xxx


----------



## Alcalaina

If anyone thinks there are no more unscrupulous employers, check this out:
The Lidl Shop of Horrors

This is what happens when unions aren t around to protect workers rights.


----------



## Stravinsky

jojo said:


> Unscrupulous employers can only operate if there are unscrupulous employees (people who are dodging the system for whatever reason)?? Of course its going on everywhere and probably always will and yes it so needs to be stamped out somehow.
> 
> But correctly operating companies should be a partnership of employers and employees, but there is too much mistrust, cos as you say the employers only see things from their point of view, but so do the employees. The union leaders (the majority), IMO, are too busy empire building for themselves and trying to keep the workers needing them and I dont believe in this day and age, with all the employment laws etc that its necessary. When things are tough and everyone is struggling, it needs everyone to pull their weight and to be on the same side - no inhouse squabbling. Fortunately its been that attitude that has helped my husbands company to ride the recession.
> 
> Jo xxx


Jo, the amount of staff that refused to be union members in the CPSA, and then suddenly came to join when they had a problem was ridiculous 

Back in the day, there used to be the kind of partnership that you talk about. People liked working for the company they were in and were loyal to that company. Then the employers began to demonstrate that they didnt have the same loyalty to the employees and it wasnt long before the workforce lost their loyalty and went where was best for them. Thats where we are today. Loyalty is no longer an important things, its who offers the best wages, or the best benefits, and if someone comes along with a better offer ... well ....

I accept that Unions have their bad points .... but they are (as I said) a necessary requirement to keep the balance


----------



## jojo

Stravinsky said:


> Jo, the amount of staff that refused to be union members in the CPSA, and then suddenly came to join when they had a problem was ridiculous
> 
> Back in the day, there used to be the kind of partnership that you talk about. People liked working for the company they were in and were loyal to that company. Then the employers began to demonstrate that they didnt have the same loyalty to the employees and it wasnt long before the workforce lost their loyalty and went where was best for them. Thats where we are today. Loyalty is no longer an important things, its who offers the best wages, or the best benefits, and if someone comes along with a better offer ... well ....
> 
> I accept that Unions have their bad points .... but they are (as I said) a necessary requirement to keep the balance



If unions have to exist, they should be run by the companies personnel departments (HR staff are employees too), it should be free to join and they shouldnt call strikes that staff dont even understand (apparently that was the case with BA staff)

........ and how far off topic is this pair of mods gonna go lololol!!!! 

Jo xxx


----------



## MaidenScotland

jojo said:


> FFS! Is there anything anyone can do hun????
> 
> Jo xxx


Ohh there is more.. I was fighting for the whole flight last night but will post all the details once I am settled.

I am in monforte now... but the gear box seized up on the way from the airport


----------



## jojo

MaidenScotland said:


> Ohh there is more.. I was fighting for the whole flight last night but will post all the details once I am settled.
> 
> I am in monforte now... but the gear box seized up on the way from the airport



Oh dear!! Sounds like a pretty bad trip to say the least. Looking forward to hearing the details. Have you got to do a return trip eep:???

Jo xx


----------



## Pesky Wesky

MaidenScotland said:


> Ohh there is more.. I was fighting for the whole flight last night but will post all the details once I am settled.
> 
> I am in monforte now... but the gear box seized up on the way from the airport


Oh well, some trips go that way don't they?
Now you're here in sunny Spain (hahaha). Enjoy the time with the little ones who sound like they're lots of fun, and the rest of the family


----------



## Pesky Wesky

jojo said:


> ........ and how far off topic is this pair of mods gonna go lololol!!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


Yes, pull yourselves together Mods!!
Speaking of which, we're one mod down...


----------



## jojo

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yes, pull yourselves together Mods!!
> Speaking of which, we're one mod down...


xabiachica! I know. She moved house/apartment and has had nothing but trouble with her internet provider from what I can gather. I wish she'd hurry up and get it sorted!. I think Strav speaks to her, he may know more!!????

Jo xxxx


----------



## Pesky Wesky

jojo said:


> xabiachica! I know. She moved house/apartment and has had nothing but trouble with her internet provider from what I can gather. I wish she'd hurry up and get it sorted!. I think Strav speaks to her, he may know more!!????
> 
> Jo xxxx


Well, she'll have a lot of first - hand - internet - provider - experience to share when she gets back!!


----------



## Stravinsky

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well, she'll have a lot of first - hand - internet - provider - experience to share when she gets back!!


She seems to have the same problem every time she moves unfortunately. I haven't heard from her for a week or so. We going off topic in a different direction now  I'll report you to my union rep!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Stravinsky said:


> She seems to have the same problem every time she moves unfortunately. I haven't heard from her for a week or so. We going off topic in a different direction now  I'll report you to my union rep!


Hahaha

(I presume you're joking and I won't get a visit from the Guardia Civil!!)

OK

:focus:


----------



## jojo

Pesky Wesky said:


> Hahaha
> 
> (I presume you're joking and I won't get a visit from the Guardia Civil!!)
> 
> OK
> 
> :focus:


Just tell em you're sick PW!!!! 
Jo xxx


----------



## Pesky Wesky

jojo said:


> Just tell em you're sick PW!!!!
> Jo xxx


Hahaha! Didn't think of that Jojo!


----------



## mrypg9

Stravinsky said:


> Jo, the amount of staff that refused to be union members in the CPSA, and then suddenly came to join when they had a problem was ridiculous
> 
> Back in the day, there used to be the kind of partnership that you talk about. People liked working for the company they were in and were loyal to that company. Then the employers began to demonstrate that they didnt have the same loyalty to the employees and it wasnt long before the workforce lost their loyalty and went where was best for them. Thats where we are today. Loyalty is no longer an important things, its who offers the best wages, or the best benefits, and if someone comes along with a better offer ... well ....
> 
> I accept that Unions have their bad points .... but they are (as I said) a necessary requirement to keep the balance


That just about sums up my views - although things weren't so good in the old days. But they were better.
Jo...sorry, but when you talk about employers and unions I'm not sure what planet you're on....it's not one I recognise, honestly. I'd love you to see some of the casework I've handled..you are a fair-minded person and would be appalled at how some employers treat their workers. You should read some of the judgments from Employment Tribunals. It's almost impossible for a badly-treated employee to take legal action against their employer if they don't belong to a Union.
As Strav says, people who 'would never join a union' rush to do so when their jobs or contractual conditions are threatened. That used to amuse me, now it annoys me.
I think I was the only person eligible to be both a member of a Trades Union and of the Institute of Directors so more than most people I'm able to see both sides.. I have no illusions asbout 'the workers' but equally I know that there is a small but significant core of downright evil employers out there who are a disgrace to a civilised society.
There is absolutely no evidence that trade union leaders are 'bullies' etc. Are they worse than bankers and others who have largely caused this crisis?
And no way are we 'all in this together' when city finance workers are still earning obscene salaries and they are getting their bonuses. ...fact. My son works in the City, has his own IT contracting firm and these people are earning megabucks.
As for your suggestion that firms should run trades unions.....that's a no-brainer, really. For one thing, it suits most well-run large companies to have strongindependent unions - they are really getting an unpaid HR and conflict resolving service.
And what would happen when workforce and management couldn't agree?


(If my flight is delayed because of unofficial action tomorrow I will thump the first identifiable non-working ATC I come across....)


----------



## Guest

ok, as I understand it this "conflict" with both "wild" actions and strikes sanctioned by the union is all about the governement's plans to sell out airports among other state owned companies. Does anyone seriously think the governement will back off and just say, allright, forgetaboutit? This can drag on for a long time I'm afraid....


----------



## Alcalaina

VidaTombola said:


> ok, as I understand it this "conflict" with both "wild" actions and strikes sanctioned by the union is all about the governement's plans to sell out airports among other state owned companies. Does anyone seriously think the governement will back off and just say, allright, forgetaboutit? This can drag on for a long time I'm afraid....


The conflict is not about the principle of selling off state assets to pay off the budget deficit, but about the fact that they are changing workers conditions of employment to make the company more profitable, in order to attract buyers. There is a difference.


----------



## Guest

Alcalaina said:


> The conflict is not about the principle of selling off state assets to pay off the budget deficit, but about the fact that they are changing workers conditions of employment to make the company more profitable, in order to attract buyers. There is a difference.


Yes, that is a difference, still it is a different beast than a threat of strike because a few percent up or down in salaries or such. This seems more tricky, (certainly more dirty tricks involved too...)


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## mrypg9

One thing I forgot to say about Unions is that most Unions do a great deal to help employers by running health and safety courses and other training that helps with workplace efficiency. My own Union (or Association as it likes to be called but it's a Union) puts on many couses for its members that help explain new initiatives and policies, all free of charge. 
I used to flit about giving seminars on the National Agreement, to give just one example.
That Agreement was a covenant between education unions (apart from the NUT), the last government and all other unions whose members work in education: school caretakers, nurses, classroom assistants and so on.
It provided a forum where conflict could be resolved and infornmation passed on in a spirit of mutual collaboration.
Unions also provide legal assistance, medical care,insurance etc. all at discounted rates.
Striking in fact forms a miniscule part of union activities. My union hasn't been on strike for over ten years.
The gutter press plays a major role in fomenting the portrayal of Unions as bullies and wreckers...a false picture.


----------



## Stravinsky

mrypg9 said:


> The gutter press plays a major role in fomenting the portrayal of Unions as bullies and wreckers...a false picture.


I blame Margaret Thatcher


----------



## mrypg9

Stravinsky said:


> I blame Margaret Thatcher


Now....hold onto something...I actually support most of the Trades Union laws she brought in. 
Outlawing closed shops...quite right (although some employers like them). No-one will ever force me to join anything, including a union.
Independent ballots...quite right too.
Independent elections for Union leaders....again quite right.
Outlawing secondary picketing...not 100 percent sure but tend to agree it's undemocratic.
I bet that surprised you
I actually think Mrs T. is a tragic figure....she managed to achieve the total opposite to the kind of society she wanted. But she managed to make the Labour Party electable and dealt with some chronic imbalances in industrial relations.
Arthur Scargill's handling of the miners' strike was so inept and trampled all over the NUM rulebook - I sincerely believe he was a MI5 mole with orders to destroy that once proud union.
No sane person could do what he did....


----------



## Joturke

Here is a short, easy to follow, interview from today’s press with another controller with 20 years working experience who wishes to protect his/her identity. Whilst brief it does throw some light on some of the issues from the controller’s point of view.

Un controlador: «El Ejército prima la seguridad y AENA las estadísticas» - ABC.es

There have been widespread references and comment in the Spanish press to the earlier mentioned blog of controller Cristina Antón and today the same publication as the link above includes an open letter to José Blanco.

The letter is very detailed and runs to 13 pages excluding references. The author is another controller with 10 years working experience in the sector and states the letter’s aim is not to convince anyone, but to open up the debate to include previously unreported details of what the author terms “this masquerade”.

Carta abierta de un controlador aéreo al ministro de Fomento - ABC.es
For those seeking information on this subject both articles may be of interest.


----------



## mrypg9

Joturke said:


> Here is a short, easy to follow, interview from today’s press with another controller with 20 years working experience who wishes to protect his/her identity. Whilst brief it does throw some light on some of the issues from the controller’s point of view.
> 
> Un controlador: «El Ejército prima la seguridad y AENA las estadísticas» - ABC.es
> 
> There have been widespread references and comment in the Spanish press to the earlier mentioned blog of controller Cristina Antón and today the same publication as the link above includes an open letter to José Blanco.
> 
> The letter is very detailed and runs to 13 pages excluding references. The author is another controller with 10 years working experience in the sector and states the letter’s aim is not to convince anyone, but to open up the debate to include previously unreported details of what the author terms “this masquerade”.
> 
> Carta abierta de un controlador aéreo al ministro de Fomento - ABC.es
> For those seeking information on this subject both articles may be of interest.



Both these newspapers are rather right-wing, no?
So I would regard what is written with the same suspicion as if I were reading The Mirror or The Daily Worker....
Just a caveat for the unwary...


----------



## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> Both these newspapers are rather right-wing, no?
> So I would regard what is written with the same suspicion as if I were reading The Mirror or The Daily Worker....
> Just a caveat for the unwary...


Or The Guardian, or The Independant or El País, or La Razon, or Time or The Economist, shall I go on?????????
Read everything knowing that it always comes from somebody's point of view. I would hope that 90 percent of news readers know that...
Or maybe they don't?

Thanks Joturke once again for providing the story from the controllers point of view. It's not easy at all to get their view point.
I wonder why???????????
All will be revealed in a few years time anyway thanks to Wikileaks!


----------



## Alcalaina

Stravinsky said:


> I blame Margaret Thatcher


Harold Wilson and Barbara Castle were sharpening the knives long before she came on the scene and finished the job.


----------



## jimenato

mrypg9 said:


> The gutter press plays a major role in fomenting the portrayal of Unions as bullies and wreckers...a false picture.


It might be false picture in that not all trade unions and unionists were bullies and wreckers but there was most certainly an element of that - I saw it myself in the '70s. 

Certain elements within the unions where I worked (I wasn't in the union and I wasn't management) were only there to stir up trouble within the workforce. Their method was to spread lies and rumours to stir up hatred of the management and general dissatisfaction within the workforce. Also, there were two unions at that place of work and there was much inter-union rivalry which was very much to the detriment of the company and the workers. 

In the generally non-confrontational industry I was in (the wine trade) they were definitely a destructive force for the company, the workforce but not for themselves.

I stress - I saw this happening. 

It has helped me form my opinion of unions. They are just bad. They do no good for anyone but themselves.


----------



## jimenato

mrypg9 said:


> But she managed to make the Labour Party electable and dealt with some chronic imbalances in industrial relations.


She managed to make Old Labour unelectable (IMO her greatest achievement).

She then created New Labour in her own image. Bliar was son-of-Thatcher. She obviously didn't get everything right...


----------



## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> That just about sums up my views - although things weren't so good in the old days. But they were better.
> Jo...sorry, but when you talk about employers and unions I'm not sure what planet you're on....it's not one I recognise, honestly. I'd love you to see some of the casework I've handled..you are a fair-minded person and would be appalled at how some employers treat their workers. You should read some of the judgments from Employment Tribunals. It's almost impossible for a badly-treated employee to take legal action against their employer if they don't belong to a Union.


I've just got in and havent read all the posts, but this bit caught my eye!! It works both ways this mistrust and abuse. Over the years how many of us have worked for companies and seen colleagues using the phone for personal use, taking pens home, paper home, using the photocopier for personal use, helping themselves to this and that, using company equipment, filling up loved ones cars with company petrol..... Even this weekend I spoke with my daughter who was saying that they didnt have to worry about ice in the drive cos her boyfriends dad could get loads of gritsalt from his work, no one would notice. It may not seem alot, but a big company may have a lot of employees helping themselves to all manner of "perks" Is that ok?????

At a place I worked in many years ago, the HR manager tried to bullyand intimidate me (she picked the worng person with me!!!) and some of the other staff - no unions and no sympathy from the directors!!! But we went thu the correct channels (not easy when the perpetrator was the HR/personnel), there was a hearing within the company and without a union and she was fired!! Yes the unions may have instigated fair rights, but there are now government and european directives that protect staff!

Maybe I've always worked for decent companies and have always known what is right and what isnt. I've also been a manager and made sure that things were always fair to both sides - but it was "the sides" that annoyed me, we were all working towards the same end, we were all on the same side.

Jo xxx


----------



## jimenato

mrypg9 said:


> It's almost impossible for a badly-treated employee to take legal action against their employer if they don't belong to a Union.


Sorry Mary, that's just wrong. I have known more than one badly treated employee get thousands from their employer - no unions involved.

Maybe we should set up a poll - who thinks unions are a force for good and who doesn't. I know exactly where I stand.


----------



## Alcalaina

jimenato said:


> Sorry Mary, that's just wrong. I have known more than one badly treated employee get thousands from their employer - no unions involved.
> 
> Maybe we should set up a poll - who thinks unions are a force for good and who doesn't. I know exactly where I stand.


But if it weren´t for the unions, there would be no legislation to protect the rights of employees who are treated unfairly! As someone (Stravinsky?) said earlier, people who don´t or won´t join unions are quite happy to enjoy the benefits the unions won for them. 

When I was a union rep in Oxford University in the 1980s we were told our pay would be frozen, when the average increase in the private sector was 5 per cent. We held several one-day strikes and ended up with an increase of 1.5 per cent. Funnily enough, the staff who would not join the union, and were happy to cross picket lines, had no scruples at all about accepting the pay increase achieved by those of us who had stuck our heads above the parapet.

Please stop this union-bashing! They are and always have been the only way to maintain any sort of justice in the workplace.


----------



## jojo

Alcalaina said:


> Please stop this union-bashing! They are and always have been the only way to maintain any sort of justice in the workplace.


I'm not bashing em, I just dont think they are necessary anymore, they did their work and now there should simply be a person within the companies HR/personnel dept, who doesnt charge a membership fee to do the job! 

We've grown up as humans and as employers/employees and we should all be working together. I sometimes feel that unions are holding this back and are unnecessarily maintaining a "them and us" scenario. Management are employees too and have rights, everyone does (no, I'm not talking about unscrupulous employers - but unions dont operate in those anyway). So working together for the good of the company is a far better and morale boosting way to approach things. I've worked in management and I had close links to the directors and IME, by far the best approach was to build a team of people who all care about the future of their company and to all pull in the same direction

Jo xxxx


----------



## Alcalaina

jojo said:


> I'm not bashing em, I just dont think they are necessary anymore, they did their work and now there should simply be a person within the companies HR/personnel dept, who doesnt charge a membership fee to do the job!
> 
> We've grown up as humans and as employers/employees and we should all be working together. I sometimes feel that unions are holding this back and are unnecessarily maintaining a "them and us" scenario. Management are employees too and have rights, everyone does (no, I'm not talking about unscrupulous employers - but unions dont operate in those anyway). So working together for the good of the company is a far better and morale boosting way to approach things. I've worked in management and I had close links to the directors and IME, by far the best approach was to build a team of people who all care about the future of their company and to all pull in the same direction
> 
> Jo xxxx


HR departments are there to protect the interests of the employers, not the staff. They are not a replacement for unions.

Of course there is a "them and us" scenario. I agree that building a committed team that works together is a great way to go, but when the brown stuff hits the fan it tends to land on the workers, not the bosses. I have never heard of a boss making himself redundant so his staff can keep their jobs.


----------



## jojo

Alcalaina said:


> HR departments are there to protect the interests of the employers, not the staff. They are not a replacement for unions.
> 
> Of course there is a "them and us" scenario. I agree that building a committed team that works together is a great way to go, but when the brown stuff hits the fan it tends to land on the workers, not the bosses. I have never heard of a boss making himself redundant so his staff can keep their jobs.


Well of course not, what good are workers without someone to give directives and manage and what good is a manager with no staff come to that?? Sometimes the bosses go too, especially if the company goes bankrupt. But if, for financial reasons it has to downsize, then surely everyone is worried about their jobs!??? In any case, isnt a manager an employee and not a two headed monster??

HR departments are not there to protect the employers interests, they are there to make sure that everyone is playing fair and that rules are kept! The "them and us" is outdated and it doesnt work, it doesnt help anyone and it makes work a battlefield. But to appease the employees, companies could stick a "union" type person in the HR department - but for heavens sake they shouldnt charge staff a union fee - I think that is outrageous and wouldnt have joined a union out of principal because of that alone!?? Its extortion! Some of the well known union leaders earn a fortune and spend most of their days either on the golf course or thinking up ways to justify their existence, all off the backs of the workers that they proport to be "helping" - its a con!

Jo xxx


----------



## mrypg9

jojo said:


> I'm not bashing em, I just dont think they are necessary anymore, they did their work and now there should simply be a person within the companies HR/personnel dept, who doesnt charge a membership fee to do the job!
> 
> We've grown up as humans and as employers/employees and we should all be working together. I sometimes feel that unions are holding this back and are unnecessarily maintaining a "them and us" scenario. Management are employees too and have rights, everyone does (no, I'm not talking about unscrupulous employers - but unions dont operate in those anyway). So working together for the good of the company is a far better and morale boosting way to approach things. I've worked in management and I had close links to the directors and IME, by far the best approach was to build a team of people who all care about the future of their company and to all pull in the same direction
> 
> Jo xxxx


Yes, all of that is true. But it doesn't change my view that whilst there are bad employers...and there are, more than you would believe....there will be a need for unions.
Yes, unions do operate within companies owned by unscrupulous employers, sadly.
Management has its unions too, Jo...you may not be aware of that. There are special unions for management - First Division Association in the Civil Service, CPSA etc...there are many layers of management and most unions have or used to have sections for management grades.
The BMA, Law Association..these are trades or rather professional unions.
The bottom line is this: unions, professional associations, whatever you call them, are necessary to maintain a balance of power in the workplace. Without them there will always be the risk that employees' views will be disregarded and their rights trampled over. 
If they were so dreadful, why is it that the first act of a dictatorship is to ban unions? The answer is simple...they are an essential part of democracy.
Yes, of course they get it wrong at times. And so do employers, governments and other organisations staffed by humans. 
Yes, unions were too powerful in the seventies. That's why I feel that the Trades Union laws were necessary. Imo the Bullock Report was a huge missed chance which put the economy back for vdecades.
Jimenato....your friend was an exception. I have attended ETs....employers can afford the best legal representation. Employees generally cannot. That's where the union steps in. It is most unusual for an employee to bring a case to an ET without the backing of a union. 
Simple answer to this question, please: why, if unions are a destructive force, is Germany so prosperous? German unionms are strong and have by law the right to have representation on the Board of all enterprises with over a certain number of employees...I think it's fifteen, not sure.
Now you're not going to tell me that British workers are overwhelmingly stupid, short-sighted and bent on bringing about their own downfall, surely??


----------



## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> Simple answer to this question, please: why, if unions are a destructive force, is Germany so prosperous? German unionms are strong and have by law the right to have representation on the Board of all enterprises with over a certain number of employees...I think it's fifteen, not sure.
> Now you're not going to tell me that British workers are overwhelmingly stupid, short-sighted and bent on bringing about their own downfall, surely??


I would say that Germany has a much more adult way of working. They may have unions but they operate in a much fairer way, they work with and are welcomed by employers. That said, I've never been to Germany and dont have any firsthand knowledge, but I do know a few Germans and the whole employment structure and mentality is different from what I can gather. In fact those I know find the way our unions operate laughable and say more or less what I'm saying

As for you comment about British workers being overwhelmingly stupid???? Hhhmmm , I would say that they are overwhelmingly greedy and like the fight. They are being lead by union leaders who, compared to German union leaders are greedy AND stupid - and empire building!!!

Jo xxx


----------



## mrypg9

jojo said:


> They are being lead by union leaders who, compared to German union leaders are greedy AND stupid - and empire building!!!
> 
> Jo xxx



But what do you mean by that? How are they 'empire building?'. How are they greedy and stupid?
Give examples!!!!!
Are there no greedy, stupid, empire building employers? A whole list of names springs to mind, both here in Spain, in the UK, the USA....
How about asset-strippers like Slater and Goldsmith? Alan Sugar -sorry, Lord Sugar - may not be stupid but he's built an empire and some might call him greedy...
Most successful employers build empires and are greedy. My dil who works for RBS is negotiating to make 98 employees redundant. With whom is she negotiating? With the unions, of course. These are highly paid - six figure salary - workers, some of them.
But what about Fred the Shred Goodwin? Did he offer to surrender some of his obscene six-figure pension when he had to step down? Some might say he was stupid to put the bank in the situation it is still in, rescued by the taxpayers' loan.
Thousands of RBS employees have lost their jobs because of him and his well-paid team.
Final question: why, as I, Strav and Alca have wryly noted, do so many workers flock to join a trade union at the first hint of trouble?
Answers on a postcard, please...


----------



## nigele2

jojo said:


> HR departments are not there to protect the employers interests, they are there to make sure that everyone is playing fair and that rules are kept!
> 
> HR departments are not there to protect the employees interests, they are there to make sure that the workers are playing fair and that the management's rules are kept!
> 
> They do this because they are paid by the directors.


----------



## jojo

well Employers/big bosses, whether people like it or not take the risks, they work their butts off initially and for as long as it takes. If things go well and they become successful then they sit back and reap the rewards - good on em. They employ people to work for them, which gives jobs, money etc! However, if things dont work out for them they go bust, bankrupt and lose everything - thats the risk they take and its for that risk that they hopefully make a lot of money - they wouldnt do it for nothing would they! I know the likes of Alan Sugar, Slater and Goldsmith come across as arrogant etc, but those people are top of the pile and probably not really involved in the"nitty gritty" of daily employment as such. I'm not sure that unions will make a difference to them either way. But evenso, if they hadnt started up doing what they do all those years ago, didnt employ people, if they couldnt keep staff they'd have gone bust and then no one would profit.

As for RSB business, well that was a national/international issue that from what I can see has very little to do with unions/strikes or Mr/Mrs average on the street.

Flocking to the unions at the first sign of trouble???? Well they're not in the unions in the first place cos they dont like them or dont want to pay 15 pounds a month for nothing!! But when things go wrong, they're told if they want help thats what they must do cos they'll get free legal representation and a lot of people dont realise that you can chase a grievance without union assistance.

Jo xxx


----------



## jojo

nigele2 said:


> jojo said:
> 
> 
> 
> HR departments are not there to protect the employers interests, they are there to make sure that everyone is playing fair and that rules are kept!
> 
> HR departments are not there to protect the employees interests, they are there to make sure that the workers are playing fair and that the management's rules are kept!
> 
> They do this because they are paid by the directors.
> 
> 
> 
> They are paid in the same way as everyone else (in fact I believe that if there are more than a certain amount of staff, HR/personnel is obligatory!! The rules and regulations they preside over are for the benefit of the company, not one "side" or the other!
> 
> Jo xxx
Click to expand...


----------



## Guest

just a question from a total newbie here who does not yet know the "culture" of the forum: have not this thread gotten off topic? Instead of news about ongoing strikes and actions it have developed into a general, worldwide discussion about unions and employers. Will someone maybe start a new thread after the 9th with up to date info about what is going on now? It's pretty tough to wade through +15 pages of discussions.... (Teach me how it works here). Thank you.


----------



## jojo

VidaTombola said:


> just a question from a total newbie here who does not yet know the "culture" of the forum: have not this thread gotten off topic? Instead of news about ongoing strikes and actions it have developed into a general, worldwide discussion about unions and employers. Will someone maybe start a new thread after the 9th with up to date info about what is going on now? It's pretty tough to wade through +15 pages of discussions.... (Teach me how it works here). Thank you.



EEEEEEKKK! I'm sorry Vida! The trouble with us is that we have a tendency to get "carried away" I generally keep my eye on flights, airport strikes etc cos my OH commutes, so if I hear anything I will make sure that a post is posted separately, same if you hear anything, please let us know and start a new thread!!!! thanks

But you are right we have waded off topic considerably, I did make a feeble attempt early on to keep it on track, but once the panic died down..................

BTW, if you simply want to read the last post, just click on the arrow in the green circle by the last posters name

Jo xxxx 
:focus:


----------



## Alcalaina

jojo said:


> I would say that Germany has a much more adult way of working. They may have unions but they operate in a much fairer way, they work with and are welcomed by employers.
> 
> Jo xxx


You didn't read the Lidl thread I posted then ... do you think it is an "adult way of working" to make menstruating women wear white headbands when they visit the toilet?


----------



## Alcalaina

nigele2 said:


> jojo said:
> 
> 
> 
> HR departments are not there to protect the employers interests, they are there to make sure that everyone is playing fair and that rules are kept!
> 
> HR departments are not there to protect the employees interests, they are there to make sure that the workers are playing fair and that the management's rules are kept!
> 
> They do this because they are paid by the directors.
> 
> 
> 
> They appear to be protecting employees' interests because they have to ensure that companies abide by the mountain of legislation designed to protect workers' rights (largely the result of union pressure). But in reality their role is to prevent the company being sued for breaking these laws.
Click to expand...


----------



## jojo

Alcalaina said:


> You didn't read the Lidl thread I posted then ... do you think it is an "adult way of working" to make menstruating women wear white headbands when they visit the toilet?



Eh?? Nice !!!!! No I dont think I read that, I've heard that they were talking about something similar in the Czech Republic???

Jo xxx


----------



## Alcalaina

jojo said:


> Eh?? Nice !!!!! No I dont think I read that, I've heard that they were talking about something similar in the Czech Republic???
> 
> Jo xxx


Lidl is a German company of course, and is infamous for abusing workers' rights all over Europe. 
The Lidl Shop of Horrors


----------



## Sonrisa

And there are hotel groups, German, that are widely know in the industry for abusing its worker, and for racism when it comes to recruitment and other not very nice practices.


----------



## Guest

ok Jojo, I start to understand how it works and I do not complain, the discussion is interesting. I guess getting carried away and also feeling at home in the forum, knowing other regulars etc makes a forum alive, it is good. For a newbie just looking for whats going on a thread like this can be pretty confusing, especially if one do not have all day.

We will see if there will be more trouble with flights coming up, I fear so... maybe a new "straight info" thread can be of use then? We'll see, thanks for the reply.


----------



## jojo

VidaTombola said:


> We will see if there will be more trouble with flights coming up, I fear so... maybe a new "straight info" thread can be of use then? We'll see, thanks for the reply.


I think its fairly certain that there will be more disruption to flights over christmas, apparently its to do with the staffs contracts all being changed without their agreement. Baggage handlers are planning some action over the festivities I believe 

We'll all post if we hear anything more definite I'm sure!


Jo xxx


----------



## Alcalaina

VidaTombola said:


> ok Jojo, I start to understand how it works and I do not complain, the discussion is interesting. I guess getting carried away and also feeling at home in the forum, knowing other regulars etc makes a forum alive, it is good. For a newbie just looking for whats going on a thread like this can be pretty confusing, especially if one do not have all day.
> 
> We will see if there will be more trouble with flights coming up, I fear so... maybe a new "straight info" thread can be of use then? We'll see, thanks for the reply.


The other unions are meeting on 9 December to confirm what action they are taking. I'll start an "info" thread once the outcome is known.

Don't give up on us yet Vida!


----------



## gus-lopez

I saw on the sw news earlier that the Flybe pilots are getting in on the act & threatening to strike over pay & conditions.


----------



## Alcalaina

gus-lopez said:


> I saw on the sw news earlier that the Flybe pilots are getting in on the act & threatening to strike over pay & conditions.


Is there meant to be a link here? I clicked on the gif and got GUS LOPEZ OLIVE PICKER!


----------



## Guest

Alca / that is his signature, below the line, but he does not pick many....


----------



## edmund

Clearly, the frozen weather has really affected us in the courier business in Spain at the time when on-line shopping in the UK is at its busiest and having a "puente" from 4th to 9th December is also madness when people are trying to send cards and presents back to the UK.

However, I'm not sure that the sensible thing would be to replace striking ATC personnel with otherwise unemployed people! For sweeping the streets fine but I'd prefer to have someone trained guide my aircraft in!


----------



## gus-lopez

VidaTombola said:


> Alca / that is his signature, below the line, but he does not pick many....


Only 1000kgs so far but I had to stop a fortnight ago as it rained , then I stupidly slipped on some steps & cracked a rib so now I'm going even slower !! Still there's only 15 yrees to go.


----------



## Guest

gus-lopez said:


> Only 1000kgs so far but I had to stop a fortnight ago as it rained , then I stupidly slipped on some steps & cracked a rib so now I'm going even slower !! Still there's only 15 yrees to go.


Gus - very sorry about the rain, even more sorry about your injury. I hope you get the crops in. I was only commenting on the animation, sry. If you have serious trouble getting it down, pm, Lorca is 200 km from me or so, have a gf too who can pick, seriously. Recover quickly, all the best


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## Sonrisa

vida, 

Do you like Manu Chao?


----------



## MaidenScotland

edmund said:


> Clearly, the frozen weather has really affected us in the courier business in Spain at the time when on-line shopping in the UK is at its busiest and having a "puente" from 4th to 9th December is also madness when people are trying to send cards and presents back to the UK.
> 
> However, I'm not sure that the sensible thing would be to replace striking ATC personnel with otherwise unemployed people! For sweeping the streets fine but I'd prefer to have someone trained guide my aircraft in!




Perhaps it´s the English who are mad to try and send cards etc when there is a peunte... they should plan better


----------



## xabiaxica

MaidenScotland said:


> Perhaps it´s the English who are mad to try and send cards etc when there is a peunte... they should plan better


:clap2::clap2:


----------



## jojo

xabiachica said:


> :clap2::clap2:


:whoo: :faint: 

YAY!!!!!! you're back!????


Jo xxx


----------



## Alcalaina

Dizzie Izzie said:


> vida,
> 
> Do you like Manu Chao?


I do! Why?


----------



## gus-lopez

VidaTombola said:


> Gus - very sorry about the rain, even more sorry about your injury. I hope you get the crops in. I was only commenting on the animation, sry. If you have serious trouble getting it down, pm, Lorca is 200 km from me or so, have a gf too who can pick, seriously. Recover quickly, all the best


Thanks for that, it's not to bad now just a dull ache apart from the muscles !! Now all this week I've been getting sunburnt as the weather is sunny a unusually warm . 22ºc today again, still mustn't complain.


----------



## jimenato

MaidenScotland said:


> Perhaps it´s the English who are mad to try and send cards etc when there is a peunte... they should plan better


I think they're mad sending cards anyway. All those resources being used to send useless bit of card around the world? Not very green is it? I'm green, I don't send any. Now, I've just got to persuade the OH...


----------



## edmund

Is no one going to come to my aid and say that a Christmas card is part of the festive season and sometimes the only time old friends make contact during the year? Or are you all too obsessed with social networking sites which, I suppose, make the tradition obsolete.


----------



## Sonrisa

Alcalaina said:


> I do! Why?


Vida's choice of both name and signature remind me of a song and an album of Manu Chao. 
I love Manu myself


----------



## jojo

edmund said:


> Is no one going to come to my aid and say that a Christmas card is part of the festive season and sometimes the only time old friends make contact during the year? Or are you all too obsessed with social networking sites which, I suppose, make the tradition obsolete.


Um.... I dont send christmas cards, I never have really :tape: Sorry!! 

Jo xxx


----------



## Stravinsky

edmund said:


> Is no one going to come to my aid and say that a Christmas card is part of the festive season and sometimes the only time old friends make contact during the year? Or are you all too obsessed with social networking sites which, I suppose, make the tradition obsolete.



It is .......

I'm just trying to do mine, but the printer is up the spout!


----------



## Alcalaina

edmund said:


> Is no one going to come to my aid and say that a Christmas card is part of the festive season and sometimes the only time old friends make contact during the year? Or are you all too obsessed with social networking sites which, I suppose, make the tradition obsolete.


I only send about a dozen these days, to family and close friends who would get upset if I didn't send them. And I'm afraid since we don't have couriers like you where I live Edmund, they all went in the yellow Correos box yesterday.

I am allergic to Christmas so my message is "Best wishes for 2011" - that way if they are late it doesn't really matter!


----------



## edmund

_I am allergic to Christmas so my message is "Best wishes for 2011" - that way if they are late it doesn't really matter! _

I bet that saves you a couple of thou a year, where did you get the allergy and can I catch it? Trouble is that when they're expecting the card they get really offended when you don't send one but we use Correos too. Used to send "Happy Holidays" to avoid upsetting those of other religions but now that we live in this Catholic country we've gone back to Happy Christmas.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

edmund said:


> Is no one going to come to my aid and say that a Christmas card is part of the festive season and sometimes the only time old friends make contact during the year? Or are you all too obsessed with social networking sites which, I suppose, make the tradition obsolete.


When I first came to Spain they didn't have Christmas cards - honest! So I got out of the habit of sending them, and now send e greetings (as in email, not extacy you lot!) to all my friends, family and clients. I think Christmas cards got a little more popular, but now with internet...

They didn't have Valentines cards and they didn't do Halloween either! It's all been brought in as a commercial exercise by the all dominant Corte Inglés


----------



## Alcalaina

edmund said:


> _I am allergic to Christmas so my message is "Best wishes for 2011" - that way if they are late it doesn't really matter! _
> 
> I bet that saves you a couple of thou a year, where did you get the allergy and can I catch it? Trouble is that when they're expecting the card they get really offended when you don't send one but we use Correos too. Used to send "Happy Holidays" to avoid upsetting those of other religions but now that we live in this Catholic country we've gone back to Happy Christmas.


Actually it's easy - you do it by mutual consent! My family (all atheists) agreed about 20 years ago that we would meet up in the summer instead (me, my mother and brother all have birthdays in June), and stop buying presents nobody really wants. So no mad travelling in the middle of winter, no dashing round the shops, no overeating and arguments over what to watch on the telly ... OH's family cottoned on too, fortunately, so no arguing about which inlaws to visit either.


----------



## Alcalaina

Pesky Wesky said:


> When I first came to Spain they didn't have Christmas cards - honest! So I got out of the habit of sending them, and now send e greetings (as in email, not extacy you lot!) to all my friends, family and clients. I think Christmas cards got a little more popular, but now with internet...
> 
> They didn't have Valentines cards and they didn't do Halloween either! It's all been brought in as a commercial exercise by the all dominant Corte Inglés


Is that like the Hallmark of success?


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Alcalaina said:


> Is that like the Hallmark of success?


The Corte Ingles is like an octupus that stretches out it's tentacles. It has more or less overtaken Sol in the centre of Madrid as there's not only a 7(?) story building, but around it they have a seperate bookstore, music store, reduced clothes store and goodness knows what stores. Many many Spanish people don't go shopping, they go to the _*Corte*_ and if it's not in the _*Corte*_, well it might just as well not exist 
Years ago there was another rival department store called Galerias, but it folded. It was never quite as successful as Corte anyway and a little more down market. Anyway, Corte Ingles took over most of their buildings and that's when we began to get 3 or four Corte Ingles ownesd buildings in the same area or street.
And then of course there are all the Corte Ingles owned labels like Esfera, Bershka and I can't remember which other ones.
However, i don't know what the story is with Zara. They've gone mad over the last few years. Bilbao is absolutely plagued with Zara shops. (have you noticed, halydia??)I think it's great that there's a successful Spanish business going, but talk about overkill!!!


----------



## edmund

OK. My last post on this one. Moonpigs.com makes sending cards from the UK easy and they really do bring pleasure at birthdays or other special events. 

I agree that the commercialisation of random events in Spain, Christmas (it used to only happen on 6th January Tres Reyes), Haloween, Valentines Day etc. has been quite shocking and noticably increased since we arrived here seven years ago. It is what they call "progress" but does fit in some way with the psyche of taking out a loan every year to buy a new dress for the local fiesta.

I thought El Corté Inglés (anyone know whether it is the English Cut or the English Court, it's ambiguous) had been allowed to take over all its rivals thereby establishing a monopoly in department stores which would not have been allowed in Britain.

On a sunnier note, the cicadas have started again here (coastal Granada) which shows how much the temperature has increased now that the North wind has reversed to South.


----------



## Guest

Pesky Wesky said:


> The Corte Ingles is like an octupus that stretches out it's tentacles. It has more or less overtaken Sol in the centre of Madrid as there's not only a 7(?) story building, but around it they have a seperate bookstore, music store, reduced clothes store and goodness knows what stores. Many many Spanish people don't go shopping, they go to the _*Corte*_ and if it's not in the _*Corte*_, well it might just as well not exist
> Years ago there was another rival department store called Galerias, but it folded. It was never quite as successful as Corte anyway and a little more down market. Anyway, Corte Ingles took over most of their buildings and that's when we began to get 3 or four Corte Ingles ownesd buildings in the same area or street.
> And then of course there are all the Corte Ingles owned labels like Esfera, Bershka and I can't remember which other ones.
> However, i don't know what the story is with Zara. They've gone mad over the last few years. Bilbao is absolutely plagued with Zara shops. (have you noticed, halydia??)I think it's great that there's a successful Spanish business going, but talk about overkill!!!


Woah woah woah... I don't think Corte's grip is THAT huge on folks - at least not here. At least, with the experience I've had in the US with Wal-Mart (and you thought Corte was bad!?) I feel that the Spanish I know tend to support smaller commerce. 

Zara's presence in Bilbao isn't too overwhelming, I just find the placement of the two stores on Gran Via ridiculous. Do we really need two stores in the same block? However, I will say that there is some difference in product choice and sizes between the two stores.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

halydia said:


> Woah woah woah... I don't think Corte's grip is THAT huge on folks - at least not here. At least, with the experience I've had in the US with Wal-Mart (and you thought Corte was bad!?) I feel that the Spanish I know tend to support smaller commerce.
> 
> Zara's presence in Bilbao isn't too overwhelming, I just find the placement of the two stores on Gran Via ridiculous. Do we really need two stores in the same block? However, I will say that there is some difference in product choice and sizes between the two stores.


I dunno. They have 7 stores in Bilbao, 2 in Maxcenter and 1 in Leioa. I think that's a lot in a small city!
Good to hear that the Spanish you know support the smaller commerce, but there is definitely a kind of person who just Corte Ingleses instead of shops. Mid to well paid office worker, big on name shopping, big on doing everything in the same place and not bothered about the small guy.
And the other thing is, as I said in my previous post, that many other clothes labels are actually owned by the Corte Ingles


----------



## Guest

Pesky Wesky said:


> I dunno. They have 7 stores in Bilbao, 2 in Maxcenter and 1 in Leioa. I think that's a lot in a small city!
> Good to hear that the Spanish you know support the smaller commerce, but there is definitely a kind of person who just Corte Ingleses instead of shops. Mid to well paid office worker, big on name shopping, big on doing everything in the same place and not bothered about the small guy.
> And the other thing is, as I said in my previous post, that many other clothes labels are actually owned by the Corte Ingles


I didn't know they had 7 in Bilbao - or that there were 2 in Maxcenter! (And HEY! Maxcenter is Barakaldo, a whole different city! Just like the BEC!  ) Seven locations in little Bilbao sure does seem like overkill. 

Isn't Bershka owned by the same group as Zara? (Inditex SA: MCE:ITX quotes & news - Google Finance)

Similar info for Corte Ingles, who appear to own Sfera: El Corte Inglés, S.A.: quotes & news - Google Finance
and 
Cortefiel, which owns Springfield and Pedro del Hierro among others: Cortefiel, S.A.: quotes & news - Google Finance


----------



## jimenato

I've been here 10 years and I've never been in one. In fact I don't think here is one very near here. What are they like? (El Corte Ingles that is).


----------



## Guest

jimenato said:


> I've been here 10 years and I've never been in one. In fact I don't think here is one very near here. What are they like?


For me, it's just a big old-fashioned department store. 
There's one in Algeciras, and at least one in Marbella.


----------



## aykalam

Pesky Wesky said:


> I dunno. They have 7 stores in Bilbao, 2 in Maxcenter and 1 in Leioa. I think that's a lot in a small city!
> Good to hear that the Spanish you know support the smaller commerce, but there is definitely a kind of person who just Corte Ingleses instead of shops. Mid to well paid office worker, big on name shopping, big on doing everything in the same place and not bothered about the small guy.
> And the other thing is, as I said in my previous post, that many other clothes labels are actually owned by the Corte Ingles


not quite: they have 7 stores in Pais Vasco

Centros Comerciales El Corte Inglés


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## Pesky Wesky

aykalam said:


> not quite: they have 7 stores in Pais Vasco
> 
> Centros Comerciales El Corte Inglés


You're talking about the Corte Ingles. 
I was talking about Zara!


----------



## aykalam

Pesky Wesky said:


> You're talking about the Corte Ingles.
> I was talking about Zara!


oh, OK sorry


----------



## lynn

Pesky Wesky said:


> You're talking about the Corte Ingles.
> I was talking about Zara!


I've just come back from Barcelona (yes, it was fab by the way). There are Cortes Ingles all over the place! Millions of them... But the good news is that they produce the free map of the city, available to all visitors so I'll not slag them off, although I don't shop there either as its too expensive for me


----------



## Pesky Wesky

jimenato said:


> I've been here 10 years and I've never been in one. In fact I don't think here is one very near here. What are they like? (El Corte Ingles that is).


I think that's an amazing feat! Well done.
As Lynn has just said they tend to be expensive, and full of stuff that I don't want to buy! I don't usually get served well, although last Christmas there was a great man in the toy department. They are all built to a similar pattern and they are an absolute maze to get out of so of course you go through all the departments trying to find your way around. I go if someone asks for smth specifically from there like a nephew last year for Christmas and I occasionally get something in the sales, but, although it's a Spanish institution, it's one I try to avoid.


----------



## Sonrisa

Seriously? I love it! 

I grew with El corte Ingles, the one in Goya. For me is like a shopping heaven. Back in the day, when I was teenager there used to be a Marks & Spencer in Serrano, was really sad when it closed down, but my disappointment didn't last long as a new Corte Ingles took over.


----------



## mrypg9

Just back from the UK, no delays but brass monkeys in London.....
Just a final note to Jojo's comment on union bosses, bullying, greed and empire building....
As I said earlier, my dil has a senior position at RBS and her department has been dealing with redundancies - there will be over a thousand IT staff 'let go'.
RBS.....now wasn't that the bank that was brought to the verge of insolvency by Fred the Shred Goodwin?
Most commentators are of the opinion that Fred's empire-building mania as manifested in the doomed acquisition of ABN-Amro was what brought the bank to the verge of insolvency, requiring a huge loan from the taxpayer. Senior staff such as my dil who worked with him say his manner to staff was bullying and intimidatory...hence the nickname. As for greed...not content with a golden handshake and a six figure pension, our Fred (sorry, Sir Fred) is working part-time as a consultant for an Edinburgh firm of architects for a further pounds200k a year..
Then there's Sir Philip Green, who has built a mighty empire, is a billionaire....and avoids tax by paying his hard-earned billions into his wife's offshore account to avoid tax on his earnings from his UK empire. I would personally call that greed......Meanwhile, staff at branches of TopShop earn barely above the minimum wage.
These are but two examples of greedy, empire building bosses - I don't know how Sir Philip treats his staff but he isn't exactly generous....
There are many more such examples.....the former boss of Northern Rock springs to mind.
Now....your turn, Jo. Give us some specific examples of greed, bullying, empire-building etc. from union bosses, not from thirty years or so ago but currrent examples. . I'll kick off by giving an example I know of personally... My union boss, Chris Keates, earns just under pounds100k a year. She treats her staff well and our HQ and local office staff are all extremely well-paid. I have seen no evidence of an 'empire' in her back yard....we do have a quarter of a million members but Chris isn't sitting on a throne being fanned by palm-waving *******.
Most union bosses earn around the pound100k mark - not megabucks for someone with their responsibilities. Considerably less than many workers in the financial sector earn.
Some people approve of unions, others don't. It's a free country. Some union bosses are cleverer than others. Some employers are benevolent, some would disgrace a nineteenth-century coal mine owner. There are also facts and then there are prejudices...
Oh and by the way.....what will happen to the posts left vacant by those thousand unnecessary workers? I'll tell you....the jobs have been exported to India, every one of them.
Some of those people, a few, were happy to take the substantial redundancy payment Unite, their union, negotiated for them. They were all people coming up to retirement. The others, most with families and mortgages, will be joining the dole queues in the New Year.
The future is bleak for them. In my opinion they have every right to be angry. What did they do wrong? 
Yes, of course there is - or should be - co-operation between workers and bosses. Workers create profits from the jobs created for them. Both are mutually dependent.
But this is the stark reality.......the individual worker is powerless against the might of the employer. That's why unions are, have been and always will be necessary.


----------



## mrypg9

gus-lopez said:


> Only 1000kgs so far but I had to stop a fortnight ago as it rained , then I stupidly slipped on some steps & cracked a rib so now I'm going even slower !! Still there's only 15 yrees to go.


Sorry to hear that, Gus....get well soon and take care, Mary


----------



## gus-lopez

mrypg9 said:


> Just back from the UK, no delays but brass monkeys in London.....
> Just a final note to Jojo's comment on union bosses, bullying, greed and empire building....
> As I said earlier, my dil has a senior position at RBS and her department has been dealing with redundancies - there will be over a thousand IT staff 'let go'.
> RBS.....now wasn't that the bank that was brought to the verge of insolvency by Fred the Shred Goodwin?
> Most commentators are of the opinion that Fred's empire-building mania as manifested in the doomed acquisition of ABN-Amro was what brought the bank to the verge of insolvency, requiring a huge loan from the taxpayer. Senior staff such as my dil who worked with him say his manner to staff was bullying and intimidatory...hence the nickname. As for greed...not content with a golden handshake and a six figure pension, our Fred (sorry, Sir Fred) is working part-time as a consultant for an Edinburgh firm of architects for a further pounds200k a year..
> Then there's Sir Philip Green, who has built a mighty empire, is a billionaire....and avoids tax by paying his hard-earned billions into his wife's offshore account to avoid tax on his earnings from his UK empire. I would personally call that greed......Meanwhile, staff at branches of TopShop earn barely above the minimum wage.
> These are but two examples of greedy, empire building bosses - I don't know how Sir Philip treats his staff but he isn't exactly generous....
> There are many more such examples.....the former boss of Northern Rock springs to mind.
> Now....your turn, Jo. Give us some specific examples of greed, bullying, empire-building etc. from union bosses, not from thirty years or so ago but currrent examples. . I'll kick off by giving an example I know of personally... My union boss, Chris Keates, earns just under pounds100k a year. She treats her staff well and our HQ and local office staff are all extremely well-paid. I have seen no evidence of an 'empire' in her back yard....we do have a quarter of a million members but Chris isn't sitting on a throne being fanned by palm-waving *******.
> Most union bosses earn around the pound100k mark - not megabucks for someone with their responsibilities. Considerably less than many workers in the financial sector earn.
> Some people approve of unions, others don't. It's a free country. Some union bosses are cleverer than others. Some employers are benevolent, some would disgrace a nineteenth-century coal mine owner. There are also facts and then there are prejudices...
> Oh and by the way.....what will happen to the posts left vacant by those thousand unnecessary workers? I'll tell you....the jobs have been exported to India, every one of them.
> Some of those people, a few, were happy to take the substantial redundancy payment Unite, their union, negotiated for them. They were all people coming up to retirement. The others, most with families and mortgages, will be joining the dole queues in the New Year.
> The future is bleak for them. In my opinion they have every right to be angry. What did they do wrong?
> Yes, of course there is - or should be - co-operation between workers and bosses. Workers create profits from the jobs created for them. Both are mutually dependent.
> But this is the stark reality.......the individual worker is powerless against the might of the employer. That's why unions are, have been and always will be necessary.



what should have been said when these banks were bailed out was " here's the money BUT there will be no shedding of staff. " They managed to get themselves back into the black without needing to dispense with these people so now the ones that are being made redundant are going solely to increase profitability.

:focus: we're miles adrift of airport strike threats !


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## mrypg9

jimenato said:


> I think they're mad sending cards anyway. All those resources being used to send useless bit of card around the world? Not very green is it? I'm green, I don't send any. Now, I've just got to persuade the OH...


We ignore Christmas totally, have done for over ten years....only send two cards, one which has to be religious to my eighty-seven year-old Auntie Nellie in Canada, the other to Uncle Bert and Auntie Edith in Bournemouth, also in their late eighties. They'd be deeply offended or think we were dead if they didn't get a card.
Whatever happened to good old family names like that???
One Christmas about seven years ago I spent the whole holiday period painting the downstairs walls of our cottage, listening to the complete Wagner Ring cycle while OH went to her office and took advantage of the peace and quiet to catch up on paperwork...although there were always vehicle breakdowns to deal with.
This year we'll spend Christmas Day up the mountain at the refugio with almost two hundred dogs.
I find the whole thing vulgar and distasteful....I saw Christmas cards on sale with 'festive greetings' such as 'Merry Christmas from one drunken slag to another..'....honestly.
It's just one big commercialised, overblown, secularised festival of over-eating and drinking and insincerity.
Bah humbug indeed......


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## littleredrooster

mrypg9 said:


> Just back from the UK, no delays but brass monkeys in London.....
> Just a final note to Jojo's comment on union bosses, bullying, greed and empire building....
> As I said earlier, my dil has a senior position at RBS and her department has been dealing with redundancies - there will be over a thousand IT staff 'let go'.
> RBS.....now wasn't that the bank that was brought to the verge of insolvency by Fred the Shred Goodwin?
> Most commentators are of the opinion that Fred's empire-building mania as manifested in the doomed acquisition of ABN-Amro was what brought the bank to the verge of insolvency, requiring a huge loan from the taxpayer. Senior staff such as my dil who worked with him say his manner to staff was bullying and intimidatory...hence the nickname. As for greed...not content with a golden handshake and a six figure pension, our Fred (sorry, Sir Fred) is working part-time as a consultant for an Edinburgh firm of architects for a further pounds200k a year..
> Then there's Sir Philip Green, who has built a mighty empire, is a billionaire....and avoids tax by paying his hard-earned billions into his wife's offshore account to avoid tax on his earnings from his UK empire. I would personally call that greed......Meanwhile, staff at branches of TopShop earn barely above the minimum wage.
> These are but two examples of greedy, empire building bosses - I don't know how Sir Philip treats his staff but he isn't exactly generous....
> There are many more such examples.....the former boss of Northern Rock springs to mind.
> Now....your turn, Jo. Give us some specific examples of greed, bullying, empire-building etc. from union bosses, not from thirty years or so ago but currrent examples. . I'll kick off by giving an example I know of personally... My union boss, Chris Keates, earns just under pounds100k a year. She treats her staff well and our HQ and local office staff are all extremely well-paid. I have seen no evidence of an 'empire' in her back yard....we do have a quarter of a million members but Chris isn't sitting on a throne being fanned by palm-waving *******.
> Most union bosses earn around the pound100k mark - not megabucks for someone with their responsibilities. Considerably less than many workers in the financial sector earn.
> Some people approve of unions, others don't. It's a free country. Some union bosses are cleverer than others. Some employers are benevolent, some would disgrace a nineteenth-century coal mine owner. There are also facts and then there are prejudices...
> Oh and by the way.....what will happen to the posts left vacant by those thousand unnecessary workers? I'll tell you....the jobs have been exported to India, every one of them.
> Some of those people, a few, were happy to take the substantial redundancy payment Unite, their union, negotiated for them. They were all people coming up to retirement. The others, most with families and mortgages, will be joining the dole queues in the New Year.
> The future is bleak for them. In my opinion they have every right to be angry. What did they do wrong?
> Yes, of course there is - or should be - co-operation between workers and bosses. Workers create profits from the jobs created for them. Both are mutually dependent.
> But this is the stark reality.......the individual worker is powerless against the might of the employer. That's why unions are, have been and always will be necessary.


Unions were desperately needed a century and more ago and probably right until fifty years ago, since when they have too often foolishly abused their own power, with the result that quite often they have ended up cutting their own throats by driving their employers to bankruptcy or else driving their own jobs overseas.

No, it is not always the case, and the power of the multi-nationals means they can easily move wherever they wish in the world and possibly abuse workers rights elsewhere.

The best bargaining chips the workers should possess are their own individual skills and dedication to their jobs.


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## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> We ignore Christmas totally, have done for over ten years....only send two cards, one which has to be religious to my eighty-seven year-old Auntie Nellie in Canada, the other to Uncle Bert and Auntie Edith in Bournemouth, also in their late eighties. They'd be deeply offended or think we were dead if they didn't get a card.
> Whatever happened to good old family names like that???
> One Christmas about seven years ago I spent the whole holiday period painting the downstairs walls of our cottage, listening to the complete Wagner Ring cycle while OH went to her office and took advantage of the peace and quiet to catch up on paperwork...although there were always vehicle breakdowns to deal with.
> This year we'll spend Christmas Day up the mountain at the refugio with almost two hundred dogs.
> I find the whole thing vulgar and distasteful....I saw Christmas cards on sale with 'festive greetings' such as 'Merry Christmas from one drunken slag to another..'....honestly.
> It's just one big commercialised, overblown, secularised festival of over-eating and drinking and insincerity.
> Bah humbug indeed......


:clap2::clap2::clap2: Oh good, it s not just me then.


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## mrypg9

littleredrooster said:


> Unions were desperately needed a century and more ago and probably right until fifty years ago, since when they have too often foolishly abused their own power, with the result that quite often they have ended up cutting their own throats by driving their employers to bankruptcy or else driving their own jobs overseas.
> 
> No, it is not always the case, and the power of the multi-nationals means they can easily move wherever they wish in the world and possibly abuse workers rights elsewhere.
> 
> The best bargaining chips the workers should possess are their own individual skills and dedication to their jobs.


I agree with some of what you have written but not the last sentence which is manifestly untrue.
The workers at RBS were highly skilled IT professionals. They were all dedicated to their jobs. What good did that do them?
Your point about workers driving their jobs overseas is also rather shaky. The reason jobs go overseas is that workers in India etc. can be paid a pittance. How low should British workers be prepared to go to keep their jobs? Should these RBS workers agree to working for 5 pounds a day? That's the logic of your argument.
All this is easy to discuss when we are talking about other people, isn't it?
Try to put yourself in the shoes of a conscientious, highly skilled worker - or any conscientious worker - who is facing unemployment because there are cheaper workers elsewhere. I doubt you would hold the same views. Do you think RBS will see a drop in its profits as a result of this?
You put the blame solely on the shoulders of unions. Neither can you compare the professionalised unions of today with those of fifty years ago. And what about the sins of employers? I note that you didn't comment on those I mentioned, probably because there is no justification for their actions other than...greed, empire-building and bullying. Stupidity, selfishness and greed are often seen in the ranks of employers too. My OH's ex bankrupted his medium-sized heating and ventilation business through all three 'sins' I've just listed. He hadn't even paid his employees' NI contributions or tax.. He fled to South Africa to avoid any legal recriminations.
There are very very many like him - no doubt some of them fled to Spain to join the ranks of the aptly described 'ten bob millionaires'.
Honestly, I despise people like that. They aren't fit to breathe the same air as honest, hardworking people who often get treated like s*** by these 'businessmen'.


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## jimenato

mrypg9 said:


> I agree with some of what you have written but not the last sentence which is manifestly untrue.
> The workers at RBS were highly skilled IT professionals. They were all dedicated to their jobs. What good did that do them?
> Your point about workers driving their jobs overseas is also rather shaky. The reason jobs go overseas is that workers in India etc. can be paid a pittance. How low should British workers be prepared to go to keep their jobs? Should these RBS workers agree to working for 5 pounds a day? That's the logic of your argument.


Do you think that the unions could or even should try to persuade this company to carry on paying these people who are clearly no longer needed? I was in IT for many years - it's a fast shifting world. I had around 10 'permanent' jobs in 25 years. The way to handle this scenario is by employing contractors not by the unions artificially trying to force the company into keeping them. If indeed that is what you are suggesting...


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## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> :clap2::clap2::clap2: Oh good, it s not just me then.


No, we are many...
If you are not a practising Christian, why would you want to celebrate Christmas?
Why not be honest and say it's just another gross-out orgy of over-indulgence?But then we don't really 'celebrate' anything - we just note anniversaries, birthdays etc. in a quiet sort of way. 
We are just miserable sods, I guess....


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## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> No, we are many...
> If you are not a practising Christian, why would you want to celebrate Christmas?
> Why not be honest and say it's just another gross-out orgy of over-indulgence?But then we don't really 'celebrate' anything - we just note anniversaries, birthdays etc. in a quiet sort of way.
> We are just miserable sods, I guess....



...... any excuse to have a family getogether and a bit of party spirit in my book is a good thing! :cheer2::dance::roll::rockon::rockon:


Jo xxx


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## jimenato

I'm not a Christian either so I don't celebrate Christmas. As for family get-togethers these are too few and far between and precious to me to take place at Christmas.


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## mrypg9

jimenato said:


> Do you think that the unions could or even should try to persuade this company to carry on paying these people who are clearly no longer needed? I was in IT for many years - it's a fast shifting world. I had around 10 'permanent' jobs in 25 years. The way to handle this scenario is by employing contractors not by the unions artificially trying to force the company into keeping them. If indeed that is what you are suggesting...



No, it's not what I'm suggesting. These jobs are needed....but they are going to countries where equally skilled workers will work for peanuts, basically. 
These are people earning 40 k plus. Indian workers with commensurate skills will do the job for around 50 pounds a day.
RBS does use contractors...my son has his own IT company and contracts to RBS, Lloyds, Goldman Sachs etc.
The end logic of supporting this exporting of jobs is that workers in the UK will be impoverished to the point where the state- aka as we the taxpayers - will have no alternatiive but to support them. Is that what we really want?
I really cannot understand why people who could perhaps at one time themselves have been at the mercy of these forces support this kind of treatment of ordinary men and women.
Now....there is probably nothing we can do about it. Maybe in a hundred or so years time all of the UK will be a so-called third-world country if we go on like this. 
But why are we British so accepting of all the s*** that's thrown at us.
No wonder the UK is one of the most unequal societies in Europe.
Why are so many of us so subservient and servile? After the 1951 election which Labour lost, Aneurin Bevan wryly noted that 'even the poor voted against us'.
Thank goodness that in the past at least there were some people who were prepared to stand up and fight for the rights we now take for granted - rights such as the franchise, freedom from arbitrary arrest, the right to strike for better working conditions and so on. What about equal pay for women - still not fully achieved but we have the unions to thank for such progress as there is.
Yes, sometimes the balance of power has shifted too far to the side of the workers and they become greedy and short-sighted.
But for centuries they've been given a good lesson by their so-called betters, the ermployers and the rest of what used to be called the Establishment.
My politics are fairly moderate, middle-of-the-road. I try to see both sides and try to base my opinions on facts and not prejudices. But I will never accept that decent working people should be treated as disposable tissues and thrown away when used and no longer required.


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## casa99

mrypg9 said:


> No, we are many...
> If you are not a practising Christian, why would you want to celebrate Christmas?
> Why not be honest and say it's just another gross-out orgy of over-indulgence?But then we don't really 'celebrate' anything - we just note anniversaries, birthdays etc. in a quiet sort of way.
> We are just miserable sods, I guess....


Hi just an add-on to what you say from an old sod like me who although not an aethist( can`t spell it) am not a practising christian either thinks that the whole meaning of christmas has almost dissappeared beneath the hulabaloo of the major store companies and television adverts to buy this and buy that just because its christmas, I`m all for peace on earth and goodwill to men and women and all that but its all gone t+++s up. I can still remember when I was a youngster some 50 odd years ago waking up on xmas day to find a stocking with an apple and orange a selection box of chocs and a railway set, nowadays its playstations xboxes wii iphones and computers and mums and dads struggling to find money for these expensive presents.
I`m an old sod, maybe but not a miserable old sod. Rant over.


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## mrypg9

jimenato said:


> I'm not a Christian either so I don't celebrate Christmas. As for family get-togethers these are too few and far between and precious to me to take place at Christmas.


We agree on that
I came back from the UK yesterday after flying to London on Tuesday, had a really good day out on Wednesday, looking round the shops but not buying much ! and having a good lunch in a 'nice' restaurant, and enjoying two really good dinners at home with son, dil and grandson.
I suppose in modern parlance you'd call that 'quality time'...


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## mrypg9

casa99 said:


> Hi just an add-on to what you say from an old sod like me who although not an aethist( can`t spell it) am not a practising christian either thinks that the whole meaning of christmas has almost dissappeared beneath the hulabaloo of the major store companies and television adverts to buy this and buy that just because its christmas, I`m all for peace on earth and goodwill to men and women and all that but its all gone t+++s up. I can still remember when I was a youngster some 50 odd years ago waking up on xmas day to find a stocking with an apple and orange a selection box of chocs and a railway set, nowadays its playstations xboxes wii iphones and computers and mums and dads struggling to find money for these expensive presents.
> I`m an old sod, maybe but not a miserable old sod. Rant over.


No, I'm not that miserable, really, either....I just get worked up about a few things.
Yes, I remember those happy days...we had so few material things but so much more real happiness. I remember how excited I got when we started practising Christmas carols at school. How I used to love it when my mother got down the ancient much used box of baubles so we could decorate the real tree which we used to get from a relative's yard.. I got caught up in the spirit of it too....too young to think about whether I believed in the Baby Jesus and Three Wise Men ....there was a sort of hushed reverence at the 'mystery' of it all that was overpowering.
I can't put that feeling into words but I think you'll know what I mean


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## mrypg9

jojo said:


> ...... any excuse to have a family getogether and a bit of party spirit in my book is a good thing! :cheer2::dance::roll::rockon::rockon:
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


Oh yes, I agree...
But you don't need what is meant to be a Christian festival for that.
Maybe we should forget the Christian part of it and go back to what after all was the original celebration...the ancient festival of Yule where feasting and drinking was a major part - and point - of the celebration.
Forget all the baby-in-a-manger and peace-on-earth stuff....
Just an excuse for a p***-up.
That would be more honest..


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## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> Oh yes, I agree...
> But you don't need what is meant to be a Christian festival for that.
> Maybe we should forget the Christian part of it and go back to what after all was the original celebration...the ancient festival of Yule where feasting and drinking was a major part - and point - of the celebration.
> Forget all the baby-in-a-manger and peace-on-earth stuff....
> Just an excuse for a p***-up.
> That would be more honest..


Its all part of it though. Call me a hypocrite, but I occasionally go to midnight mass on christmas eve!?! (well I used to be a christian) I go because its tradition, its nostaligic and it gives me a warm glow - yeah, yeah for all the wrong reasons! It reminds of my childhood and christmases gone passed. The sparkle, the carols, that same old christmas story, the slightly inebriated folk in the back singing the carols a bit too loud and terribly out of tune.... and then outside afterwards, everyones happy and excited, moaning about a full house and the turkey etc.. I love all of that! That flippin' song by Slade sums it all up really. 

We also have an open house on christmas eve and all manner of friends and family pop in, have a drink, some nibbles and a mince pie and for a rare few days, everyone is happy, relaxed and they have time!

I love it!

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky

casa99 said:


> I`m an old sod, maybe but not a miserable old sod. Rant over.


Well, I'm going to be a miserable old sod and go:focus:

Did you know that we have now been assured by both the government and the controllers that there will be no strikes over Christmas. It's another thing whether you believe them or not!


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## Pesky Wesky

Others things that have caught my interest as the story unfolds...
The government was heavily criticised for releasing the latest decree on number of hours to be worked by controllers on Friday afternoon - the worst possible time considering air traffic.
*César* Cabo, spokesman for USCA, /the union) has said on several occasions that the controllers didn't close down the airports, that aena did. The reply to which is, of course they did - there were no controllers to guide the planes what were they supposed to do ?? But their agument continues to be that they didn't close any airports. A question of syntaxis maybe...
The government's decision to call a state of alarm has been backed by the PP, but not by IU.

My own thoughts are why on earth was this situation allowed to happen in the first place?? Politicians have been citing 1999 as the date when problems first arose with the air traffic controllers, so this has been going on through several governments.
Although it's too late to rectify that now, let this be a lesson for future agreements.


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