# restaurants/bars/night clubs query



## crc (Jul 4, 2010)

I know that in spain resturant, bar, night club and cafe mean different things, but what exactly is the difference.


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## dunmovin (Dec 19, 2008)

crc said:


> I know that in spain resturant, bar, night club and cafe mean different things, but what exactly is the difference.


for cafe, read pub. night club (on the outer part of town) read knocking shop. Restaurant, read place to eat.


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## crc (Jul 4, 2010)

have you got a link at all?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

link for what???

Jo xxx


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## crc (Jul 4, 2010)

link whixh explains the differences.


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## dunmovin (Dec 19, 2008)

crc said:


> link whixh explains the differences.


sorry no link just experience of living here


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

crc said:


> link whixh explains the differences.


you could try google, The only differences between bars etc in spain and bars etc in the UK that I can think of are that cafes are allowed to sell alcohol

Jo x


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## crc (Jul 4, 2010)

oh ok. i've tried google and it's not helping much.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

I dont wanna be rude but its a bit of a strange question!???????? The difference are pretty much the same wherever you go??

Jo xxx


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## gerrit (Jul 15, 2008)

the lines are somewhat blurred sometimes.

Cafe = usually a pub although can also be a tavern serving coffee, bakery stuff or tapas
Club = usually a more poshy and more expensive discotheque, although can also mean a brothel
Night club = more or less same as "club", the line between the two can be thin or terms can be mixed up by the establishments themselves
Restaurant = speaks for itself, although this can also include a simple tapas bar. Not only more classy restaurants serving a wide range of food.
Tavern (as far as the term is frequently used at all) = usually a more quiet variant of a cafe, and serving more like cookies, cakes and coffee instead of beer and snacks. Something like Starbucks would be in this category.


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## crc (Jul 4, 2010)

gerrit said:


> the lines are somewhat blurred sometimes.
> 
> Cafe = usually a pub although can also be a tavern serving coffee, bakery stuff or tapas
> Club = usually a more poshy and more expensive discotheque, although can also mean a brothel
> ...


thank you, that's the answer I was looking for.


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## gerrit (Jul 15, 2008)

By the way, does McDonald's classify as a restaurant? After all, it has the option to eat in the same place where you buy your food, it provides tables and chairs, it has toilets for customers' use, and even when there's not much on it there is some sort of menu ...

So can one tell his girlfriend that she's invited for dinner at a restaurant, and then take her to McDonald's? 
Or what would be the correct term to point at a fastfood dining place?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

gerrit said:


> By the way, does McDonald's classify as a restaurant? After all, it has the option to eat in the same place where you buy your food, it provides tables and chairs, it has toilets for customers' use, and even when there's not much on it there is some sort of menu ...
> 
> So can one tell his girlfriend that she's invited for dinner at a restaurant, and then take her to McDonald's?
> Or what would be the correct term to point at a fastfood dining place?


............. and MCD sell alcohol in Europe - so it could be classed as a bar

Jo xx


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## gerrit (Jul 15, 2008)

But you can eat there, so isn't it fitting the restaurant tag? Regardless if the food is fastfood or a classy buffet, it's eating ; and that's the main criteria for the tag "restaurant", no? 

Although if I follow that way of thinking, the Frankfurter places in Barcelona selling only beer and hotdogs with few tables and barstools ... well, as long as you eat that hotdog within the place itself I guess it's also a restaurant??


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

so where does a "venta" fit in??? cos our local calls itself a "venta" 

Jo xxx


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## rjnpenang (Feb 20, 2008)

There used to be a financial benefit in what you where graded as, ie: Cafe one fork, Cafe 2 fork etc. etc., the same with restaurants, as far as I know if you are graded as a restaurant you are obliged to offer a ¨Menu del Dia¨which must comprise 3 courses, bread, and a choice of drink or water, some restaurants get around this by offering the menu only at lunchtimes.
As a matter of interest you are within your rights to demand a Menu del Dia in any restaurant not advertising one, I think the law still stands?.
A lot of these laws date from the early days for travellers, & tourists later, you will notice in hotel bedrooms in Spain (and France & Italy?) the high & low season prices for that particular room, again, a law to protect the traveller. Regards Rob
PS, It might be in the big hamburger chains interests to be classified as a cafeteria, they probably are. And a Venta would be classified as a restaurant, 1 fork?, 2 forks?.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

the other good thing about Spanish bars/cafes is that children are allowed to go in them, you can smoke in most of them and unlike the UK you can usually sit outside and enjoy watching the world go by

Jo xx


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## dunmovin (Dec 19, 2008)

gerrit said:


> By the way, does McDonald's classify as a restaurant? After all, it has the option to eat in the same place where you buy your food, it provides tables and chairs, it has toilets for customers' use, and even when there's not much on it there is some sort of menu ...
> 
> So can one tell his girlfriend that she's invited for dinner at a restaurant, and then take her to McDonald's?
> Or what would be the correct term to point at a fastfood dining place?


Gerrit, behave yourself........ that muck McD passes for food should have a bio hazzard warning attached...restaurant........ only if you have an iq under 0.1


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

dunmovin said:


> Gerrit, behave yourself........ that muck McD passes for food should have a bio hazzard warning attached...restaurant........ only if you have an iq under 0.1



TOP TIP: Do not take a first date out to a romantic dinner for two to Macdonalds!!!!


Jo xxx


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## rjnpenang (Feb 20, 2008)

So Jo, when you´re back in Spain go down to your local Venta on a Sunday lunchtime and demand the ¨Menu del Dia¨¨, or even this Sunday evening!!!!. Regards Rob


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

rjnpenang said:


> So Jo, when you´re back in Spain go down to your local Venta on a Sunday lunchtime and demand the ¨Menu del Dia¨¨, or even this Sunday evening!!!!. Regards Rob



I'm back in Spain!!! This Sunday evening???????AAAAAAAAGGGGGHHH!!! We cant make up our minds whether just to hobble into Alhaurin de la Torre square or Plaza Mayor. I'm no footy fan, but the atmosphere cant be missed - unless they..... well they wont!!! will they???? 

Jo xxx


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## Caz.I (Mar 21, 2009)

gerrit said:


> By the way, does McDonald's classify as a restaurant? After all, it has the option to eat in the same place where you buy your food, it provides tables and chairs, it has toilets for customers' use, and even when there's not much on it there is some sort of menu ...
> 
> So can one tell his girlfriend that she's invited for dinner at a restaurant, and then take her to McDonald's?
> Or what would be the correct term to point at a fastfood dining place?


I think McDonald's is listed as a restaurant in the Yellow Pages here.

But I really hope you are not thinking of taking your girlfriend there - or is it some kind of attempt to get rid of her?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

I have inside info on the Mc Donalds = restaurant idea. Years ago, when I first went self employed and I needed classes I worked in the offices of Burger King. They always referred to their *places *as restaurants which had me really confused for the first few weeks. I always thought "Restaurant what restaurant??" But what would they call them...
As for night club (nearly always spelt in the ultra trendy way of *nite*) you do have to be careful. If you say you've been to one there's a heavy sexual connotation there, which is what dunmovin was going on about.


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## gerrit (Jul 15, 2008)

jojo said:


> the other good thing about Spanish bars/cafes is that children are allowed to go in them, you can smoke in most of them and unlike the UK you can usually sit outside and enjoy watching the world go by
> 
> Jo xx


Not too sure if those are such good points.

Some pubs are not exactly good places to take a young child to as well. For example there's no harm taking a young kid to Starbucks but I wouldn't advise to take a young child to an Irish pub with drunks all over the place ...

Personally I don't mind someone smoking in my company, even though I don't smoke myself. But I know many people find it a bother. Few years ago many pubs had a seperate area for non-smokers, some restaurants still apply that. Good idea in my opinion, as it keeps it nicely in the middle of the spectrum.

Something that bothers me is that some cafes or restaurants are reluctant to dogs. My family have a dog (a very small one) and he always joins whenever they visit me. It's not exactly pleasant when we have to walk for 20 minutes and hop in and out of 10 taverns before we finally find a place where the little fella is welcome. I realise some people find the barking of a dog (as far as that happens that often, many dogs will be quiet and well-behaved inside the tavern) bothering, but then a young child crying loud for several minutes isn't exactly pleasant neither. Forbidding punishes the good ones with the bad ones always. Just like there is a non-smoker area in some places, why not have a dogs-allowed zone in the restaurant?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

gerrit said:


> Not too sure if those are such good points.
> 
> Some pubs are not exactly good places to take a young child to as well. For example there's no harm taking a young kid to Starbucks but I wouldn't advise to take a young child to an Irish pub with drunks all over the place ...
> 
> ...



Have I got this right???????? You want to ban kids and smoking, but allow dogs?! 

I think we're straying off topic lol. The facts are (at this moment in time) that you can smoke in most bars and kids are allowed in them, but most folk sit outside anyway

Jo xxx


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## gerrit (Jul 15, 2008)

jojo said:


> Have I got this right???????? You want to ban kids and smoking, but allow dogs?!
> 
> I think we're straying off topic lol. The facts are (at this moment in time) that you can smoke in most bars and kids are allowed in them, but most folk sit outside anyway
> 
> Jo xxx


No no, on the contrary. I am pro allowing kids, smoking AND dogs. I was just naming crying babies or smoking people as an example : some others in the pub may find this unpleasant, but is that a reason to ban them from entering? The same goes with a dog who may bark for a minute or so.... A bit of tolerance never does harm  I was far from saying that kids or smoking should not be allowed in a public place, just saying I personally think that dogs should be allowed in as well (if desired a "dogs allowed" area seperate from the rest of the restaurant/pub can be a solution)


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## Guest (Jul 9, 2010)

gerrit said:


> Something that bothers me is that some cafes or restaurants are reluctant to dogs. My family have a dog (a very small one) and he always joins whenever they visit me. It's not exactly pleasant when we have to walk for 20 minutes and hop in and out of 10 taverns before we finally find a place where the little fella is welcome. I realise some people find the barking of a dog (as far as that happens that often, many dogs will be quiet and well-behaved inside the tavern) bothering, but then a young child crying loud for several minutes isn't exactly pleasant neither. Forbidding punishes the good ones with the bad ones always. Just like there is a non-smoker area in some places, why not have a dogs-allowed zone in the restaurant?


Health codes. I remember when our local bar started serving food - couldn't bring the dog in any more!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

gerrit said:


> No no, on the contrary. I am pro allowing kids, smoking AND dogs. I was just naming crying babies or smoking people as an example : some others in the pub may find this unpleasant, but is that a reason to ban them from entering? The same goes with a dog who may bark for a minute or so.... A bit of tolerance never does harm  I was far from saying that kids or smoking should not be allowed in a public place, just saying I personally think that dogs should be allowed in as well (if desired a "dogs allowed" area seperate from the rest of the restaurant/pub can be a solution)


The trouble is that if everyone decides to bring Fido to the bar, you could end up with complete and total anarchy!! My dogs are great on their own, but put them in a room full of other dogs??????????????? can you imagine?? leads tangling, dogs barking, jumping around, snarling, tables and chairs flying........ I dont think so!

Jo xxx


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## gerrit (Jul 15, 2008)

jojo said:


> The trouble is that if everyone decides to bring Fido to the bar, you could end up with complete and total anarchy!! My dogs are great on their own, but put them in a room full of other dogs??????????????? can you imagine?? leads tangling, dogs barking, jumping around, snarling, tables and chairs flying........ I dont think so!
> 
> Jo xxx


How did you know the name of my dog? Seriously, he's named Fido 

Well, I see your point, my dog is very calm and well-behaved until another male dog comes a bit too close, then he has this urge to bark as if he wants to prove he's the tough guy. My dog is a chihuahua, I think he tries to compensate his small size by trying to give the impression of being tough. My two bigger dogs I used to have were three or four times his size but much calmer.

I understand totally that the noise of several dogs in a bar barking at each other is disturbing to other people, that's why I say I'd perfectly understand having a dog-allowed zone separated from the rest of the pub. Refusing access alltogether is what I dislike because it shows lack of tolerance towards us dog owners. I don't have children but that doesn't mean I'd complain when a child next to me in the restaurant starts crying. I don't smoke but I don't mind if the guy on the table next to mine lights up a cigarette. People need to be a bit more tolerant and accepting. I was not indicating refusing kids or smokers access, not at all, just stating that i think dogs should not be refused neither.

That said, after a bit of researching I know the restaurants where Fido is welcome. So we just end up eating in the same few restaurants all the time.


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## dunmovin (Dec 19, 2008)

gerrit said:


> By the way, does McDonald's classify as a restaurant? After all, it has the option to eat in the same place where you buy your food, it provides tables and chairs, it has toilets for customers' use, and even when there's not much on it there is some sort of menu ...
> 
> So can one tell his girlfriend that she's invited for dinner at a restaurant, and then take her to McDonald's?
> Or what would be the correct term to point at a fastfood dining place?


you missed the bit where food ....realfood is served.... erm... collected no...still not right....thrown in your genaral (yepthat just about covers it)direction


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## dunmovin (Dec 19, 2008)

dunmovin said:


> you missed the bit where food ....realfood is served.... erm... collected no...still not right....thrown in your genaral (yepthat just about covers it)direction


if you look in a dcitionary and Big Mac & fries has the word food anywhere in the description ...call me we have a great base for a class action lawsuit


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## littleredrooster (Aug 3, 2008)

No way I'll take my Mutt into a bar until such time as ciggies are banned and he's not at risk from passive smoking.
As previously mentioned clubs and night clubs normally have a sexual connection.
They are more often described as night clubs in busier areas and towns,where they may offer a broader spectrum of services incl.sex shows.
However way out in the country on the main trucker and traveller routes they normally just have the word "Club"only above the entrance,and are simply whorehouses/brothels and nothing more, providing various servicing facilities for all sorts of guys from the well heeled to the the truck drivers and poor fellas who can't get their oats at home, and so have to do it discreetly well away from the trouble and strife and nosey neighbours.


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## neilmac (Sep 10, 2008)

gerrit said:


> How did you know the name of my dog? Seriously, he's named Fido
> 
> Well, I see your point, my dog is very calm and well-behaved until another male dog comes a bit too close, then he has this urge to bark as if he wants to prove he's the tough guy. My dog is a chihuahua, I think he tries to compensate his small size by trying to give the impression of being tough. My two bigger dogs I used to have were three or four times his size but much calmer.
> 
> ...


Please don't campaign for that or it'll end up with cats, birds etc. Poor Mrs Neilmac is allergic to fur and feather unless it's being served up and merely the thought of sharing a chair that an animal has occupied will have her racing for the antihistamine - don't get me wrong we love dogs, cats and so on but inside a restaurant really isn't the place.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

I met my friends today for lunch, our regular Saturday thing in the Lebanese bar and one of my friends, by coincidence brought her dog with her and he aint small, great big furry thing called Osito! He came in, sat down and the barman brought him a big bowl of water!!!

My point is that they do allow dogs into bars, but it could have been carnage if any other dogs had walked in, cos Osito could turn tables over with one flick of his tail!!!

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> Have I got this right???????? You want to ban kids and smoking, but allow dogs?!
> 
> Jo xxx


Should you ever come across a place that does just this.....pm me AT ONCE


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

mrypg9 said:


> Should you ever come across a place that does just this.....pm me AT ONCE




Jo xxxx


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## gerrit (Jul 15, 2008)

neilmac said:


> Please don't campaign for that or it'll end up with cats, birds etc. Poor Mrs Neilmac is allergic to fur and feather unless it's being served up and merely the thought of sharing a chair that an animal has occupied will have her racing for the antihistamine - don't get me wrong we love dogs, cats and so on but inside a restaurant really isn't the place.


That's why I said I'd totally understand if there'd be a zone for dogs separated from the rest of the restaurant. But totally banning?? That is just lack of tolerance in my books.

I can get very annoyed from children crying. However, I'd never ever complain about it. I accept that these things just happen in public places and try to ignore it (or leave the place if it lasts too long). Being tolerant never harmed someone.

I don't expect that people will just like a dog next to their table ; hence I said a "dog zone" separated from the rest of the restaurant. But I also don't like the idea of not being able to take my family out for dinner when they visit me just because they have a dog. And no, we don't leave him alone at home for an hour, the poor thing shouldn't be punished for some restaurant owner disliking a tiny dog in his presence.

By the way, is a shisha considered smoking? While, for the same tolerance reason, I don't mind regular cigarettes neither (as long as they don't try to make me smoke myself I don't mind sitting next to a smoker) but somehow a shisha never left a strong smell like some normal cigarettes do.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

gerrit said:


> That's why I said I'd totally understand if there'd be a zone for dogs separated from the rest of the restaurant. But totally banning?? That is just lack of tolerance in my books.
> 
> I can get very annoyed from children crying. However, I'd never ever complain about it. I accept that these things just happen in public places and try to ignore it (or leave the place if it lasts too long). Being tolerant never harmed someone.
> 
> ...


On a serious not, and as much as I love dogs I think it would absolutely ridiculous to have a "dog room" in a restaurant or anywhere else. They're not banned from bars in anycase!! I think you're winding us up


Jo xxx


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## gerrit (Jul 15, 2008)

I am not having the intention of winding up and am serious. Last time my family visited it took us half an hour of asking around before we could find a restaurant where we were welcome with the dog. My parents were quite frustrated about it. 


Anyways, to go back on-topic: a club doesn't ALWAYS have a sexual connotation. Like I said, the lines are very blurred sometimes. I know a few "night clubs" here in Barcelona which are just very poshy disco's (the type of disco with an entrance fee of 5 euro or more and with non-alcoholic drinks starting from 6 euro onwards) without any sexual connection. I think rather than the term, the outlook of the establishment indicates what to expect. A neon lights lit dodgy bar with an 18+ mark or a cabaret with hangouts of revealingly dressed ladies is likely a sex club regardless if it uses the term "club" or not. A place full of punk and rock logo's on the wall and with people wearing Metallica and Motörhead shirts coming in and out, is just a pub playing a specific type of music even when they would use the term "club" in their name. And even when the term "restaurant" is used, when it's a quite small place with very little luxury and people eating snacks, then you know it's a tapas place much more than a real restaurant for a proper lunch.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

gerrit said:


> I am not having the intention of winding up and am serious. Last time my family visited it took us half an hour of asking around before we could find a restaurant where we were welcome with the dog. My parents were quite frustrated about it.


I hope it took longer than half an hour!!!! Dogs are not meant to go to restaurants! If nothing else, what would happen if the great dane on the next table fancied a snack and saw a little Chihuahua minding his own business, sitting on his owners lap..........!!!!!


Sorry, its illegal to take dogs into restaurants or anywhere serving food in the UK!! In Spain people do take their dogs into bars and cafes, which is fine if there is only one or two at the most. I'd not take mine because they wouldnt enjoy being made to sit in a corner and I wouldnt enjoy the stress of having them with me! 

Jo xxx


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## littleredrooster (Aug 3, 2008)

gerrit said:


> I am not having the intention of winding up and am serious. Last time my family visited it took us half an hour of asking around before we could find a restaurant where we were welcome with the dog. My parents were quite frustrated about it.
> 
> 
> Anyways, to go back on-topic: a club doesn't ALWAYS have a sexual connotation. Like I said, the lines are very blurred sometimes. I know a few "night clubs" here in Barcelona which are just very poshy disco's (the type of disco with an entrance fee of 5 euro or more and with non-alcoholic drinks starting from 6 euro onwards) without any sexual connection. I think rather than the term, the outlook of the establishment indicates what to expect. A neon lights lit dodgy bar with an 18+ mark or a cabaret with hangouts of revealingly dressed ladies is likely a sex club regardless if it uses the term "club" or not. A place full of punk and rock logo's on the wall and with people wearing Metallica and Motörhead shirts coming in and out, is just a pub playing a specific type of music even when they would use the term "club" in their name. And even when the term "restaurant" is used, when it's a quite small place with very little luxury and people eating snacks, then you know it's a tapas place much more than a real restaurant for a proper lunch.



If you're travelling out in the sticks and see a building by itself marked "Club",you could well be surprised just what you might find yourself eating in there,... but I can assure you it won't exactly be menu of the day.
Not quite sure what it is myself,...but I only wish they'd pluck it first.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Smoking and animals (including inappropriately-clad humans) should be banned from places where food is served. But I can't see the problem with well-behaved dogs in bars.
It's not the size of the dog that's the problem imo, it's the owner's attitude. Our Little Azor (henceforth to be known as Azorito in honour of his adopted country) is bigger than any dog I've come across apart from a Great Dane - and Ridgebacks have a strain of Great Dane in their complex breeding. He is controlled and very well-behaved although he sometimes strikes terror on first appearance, until people see his gentle expression (see album photos for confirmation). He doesn't bark unnecessarily either so when he does it's time to take notice. He is also short-haired and has daily grooming so he's very clean. 
He would be an asset to any bar or cafe as he attracts a lot of attention - not many Ridgeback Rodesianos in Spain, it seems. 
The real problem as I've said before is with yappy and often aggressive small dogs whose owners let them wander and annoy people and other dogs. 
Azorito bears scars from the bites of smaller dogs which, if angry enough, he could swallow as a snack, but he just looks hurt and offended when they attack him. 
Just as well, as if he did retaliate he'd get all the blame.
Sizeism or what????


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

As a dog owner and a hotelier I can tell you why I was reluctant to allow dogs onto my premises 
A dog owner asks if it is aright to bring their very well behaved dog who does not bark, stays of the bed and is house trained. Without fail every dog went on the bed resulting in me having to have the duvet plus the under blanket dry cleaned. T.Vs would be left on to keep Fido company and I even had someone hand me the remains of tinned dog food and wanted me to put it in the kitchen fridges. Every dog barks after a time when left alone in a strange room. They would then take Fido round the garden to relieve himself and they would never clean up after him. 
My hotel was on the water front and I had yacht clientèle so one of my bars floor was tiled and I had no problem with dogs going in there until one day a customer brought in 3 huge German shepherds, I had customers walking in and they would see the dogs and walk straight out. I explained that he would have to take the dogs out and he assured me the dogs were safe and was quite obnoxious when I told him he was frightening my customers away and costing me money, one of my dogs at that moment walked past the French doors and the dogs lunged for him and there is no way anyone can control three huge dogs wanting to kill a Westie, luckily the doors were closed. Dogs don't wander outside when they want to fart!!
All dog owners think that their dogs are well behaved.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

MaidenScotland said:


> As a dog owner and a hotelier I can tell you why I was reluctant to allow dogs onto my premises
> A dog owner asks if it is aright to bring their very well behaved dog who does not bark, stays of the bed and is house trained. Without fail every dog went on the bed resulting in me having to have the duvet plus the under blanket dry cleaned. T.Vs would be left on to keep Fido company and I even had someone hand me the remains of tinned dog food and wanted me to put it in the kitchen fridges. Every dog barks after a time when left alone in a strange room. They would then take Fido round the garden to relieve himself and they would never clean up after him.
> My hotel was on the water front and I had yacht clientèle so one of my bars floor was tiled and I had no problem with dogs going in there until one day a customer brought in 3 huge German shepherds, I had customers walking in and they would see the dogs and walk straight out. I explained that he would have to take the dogs out and he assured me the dogs were safe and was quite obnoxious when I told him he was frightening my customers away and costing me money, one of my dogs at that moment walked past the French doors and the dogs lunged for him and there is no way anyone can control three huge dogs wanting to kill a Westie, luckily the doors were closed. Dogs don't wander outside when they want to fart!!
> All dog owners think that their dogs are well behaved.


Well, I understand what you are saying....but there are exceptions, honestly.
Our Azorito is a veteran of many hotel stays, from the 4star to the humble B&B. 
We take his bed on which he sleeps as he has been trained, he is never taken into public areas or dining rooms and he doesn't bark when left alone - he's only left alone at breakfast and dinner which are always taken in the hotel restaurant. Ridgebacks are known for being the strong silent type. He is always on a lead, well under control having been well-trained and is muzzled when appropriate. It seems to me to be the height of ill-manners to ask for dog food to be kept in a hotel fridge!! Neither would I allow Azorito to relieve himself in a public place. When we're away we find a patch of suitably rough ground and even then we pick up after him.
As I said, it's all down to how the owners have been brought up. Taking three Shepherds into a bar or cafe is a selfish, ill-bred anti-social act. Azorito has only once been in -or rather outside -a cafe when we were desperate for a drink on a very hot day and the owner insisted on bringing him water and other customers fussed over him and said how guapo and well-behaved he was.
Most of the undesirable things you describe can also be done by children. I get put off entering a bar etc,. if I see loud, noisy uncontrolled children inside.
It's all down to owners' own standards of behaviour and expectations, imo.
But yes, Our Azorito could fart for England, Spain, the whole EU in fact.
Which is one reason why we keep him out of hotel dining rooms - and our own, if possible and ALWAYS when we have guests..


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Well, I understand what you are saying....but there are exceptions, honestly.
> Our Azorito is a veteran of many hotel stays, from the 4star to the humble B&B.
> We take his bed on which he sleeps as he has been trained, he is never taken into public areas or dining rooms and he doesn't bark when left alone - he's only left alone at breakfast and dinner which are always taken in the hotel restaurant. Ridgebacks are known for being the strong silent type. He is always on a lead, well under control having been well-trained and is muzzled when appropriate. It seems to me to be the height of ill-manners to ask for dog food to be kept in a hotel fridge!! Neither would I allow Azorito to relieve himself in a public place. When we're away we find a patch of suitably rough ground and even then we pick up after him.
> As I said, it's all down to how the owners have been brought up. Taking three Shepherds into a bar or cafe is a selfish, ill-bred anti-social act. Azorito has only once been in -or rather outside -a cafe when we were desperate for a drink on a very hot day and the owner insisted on bringing him water and other customers fussed over him and said how guapo and well-behaved he was.
> ...



Unfortunately you cannot run an establishment for the exception... and as I said all owners and I am one of them think there dogs are well behaved.


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## gerrit (Jul 15, 2008)

MaidenScotland said:


> As a dog owner and a hotelier I can tell you why I was reluctant to allow dogs onto my premises
> A dog owner asks if it is aright to bring their very well behaved dog who does not bark, stays of the bed and is house trained. Without fail every dog went on the bed resulting in me having to have the duvet plus the under blanket dry cleaned. T.Vs would be left on to keep Fido company and I even had someone hand me the remains of tinned dog food and wanted me to put it in the kitchen fridges. Every dog barks after a time when left alone in a strange room. They would then take Fido round the garden to relieve himself and they would never clean up after him.
> My hotel was on the water front and I had yacht clientèle so one of my bars floor was tiled and I had no problem with dogs going in there until one day a customer brought in 3 huge German shepherds, I had customers walking in and they would see the dogs and walk straight out. I explained that he would have to take the dogs out and he assured me the dogs were safe and was quite obnoxious when I told him he was frightening my customers away and costing me money, one of my dogs at that moment walked past the French doors and the dogs lunged for him and there is no way anyone can control three huge dogs wanting to kill a Westie, luckily the doors were closed. Dogs don't wander outside when they want to fart!!
> All dog owners think that their dogs are well behaved.


Makes sense, I totally get your point. Although the small sidenote is that the blame should go to those who didn't train their dog well.

Our little Fido (yes that's his real name) went to a dog training school when he was young so that we could train him in the best possible way. We always carry plastic bags with us to clean up his remains if he needs to "go to the toilet" but did train him to do so outside of premises rather than inside of a place. The one thing we cannot really control is that he does get nervous when another dog is around, but we learnt him to still keep quiet ; if another dog comes to close we will just empty our drink and leave the premises before there is a chance our dog could make noise.

Dog owners leaving their dog unattended in a hotel room should be forbidden from keeping a dog. Not only it's disrespectful towards hotel staff and other hotel guests (because obviously the dog will bark when left alone in a strange place) but it's also a sign that they don't care too much about their dog. These people need to realise the dog will be anxious when left alone in a strange place. Back before I left the house, whenever we went on holidays, we searched a stroke of beach where we could take the dog with us (even if this meant driving a few kilometers if that one stroke of beach was not near our hotel) or we would go to the beach in turns so that there was always someone to stay with the dog. That way we never had issues.

Dogs are like kids: you gotta use common sense and train them well  A properly raised dog should never cause trouble in a restaurant, although i can understand the owner of the premises being careful because you never know if the dog is well trained. Hence why I am saying that, just like some restaurants have a zone for smokers, you can have a dog-free and a dog-allowed part of the premises.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Please Google Rhodesian Ridgebacks. A characteristic of the breed is that they rarely bark.
MS -I agree. No, you can't make exceptions - you make a rule and stick to it. But our dog will be a welcome return guest wherever he has stayed because he disturbs and offends no-one.
At the end of the day it's about the owner not the dog. To my mind it's the same principle as being appropriately dressed. You act out of consideration for other people.
People who think that their clothing choice should have no impact on other people's feelings will very often have the same attitude with their pets.
We rarely take Azorito to crowded places anyway as it's not good for him to be in a noisy, crowded,smoky environment.


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## dunmovin (Dec 19, 2008)

The only time we take our dog with us is if there is outside seating available. She never makes a fuss, just find a comfy place to lie down and stays there. She is never off the lead and never tries to beg for food.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

I shudder with embarrassment reading about all of your dogs  Mine would be horrendous. They're only little chaps, but they are unruly and badly behaved. Dont get me wrong, they havent got a bad bone in their bodies and are loving and loyal, but when they go out anywhere they pirouette on their leads, pull and tug everywhere, bark when they think they will, chase things, pee against anything and everything............... But they do it with smiles and wagging tails 

Jo xxxx


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## gerrit (Jul 15, 2008)

We too keep the dog on the leach ALWAYS. Even when he never did any other dog harm, why take any risk?

One thing in the entire discussion is the word "appropriate". That is very open to interpretation and lot of people will have different interpretations of it. I've known people who found even a bare shoulder inappropriate, whereas others don't even mind when someone walks their streets without a shirt. Some would find a pet inappropriate even when you hold him the entire time and don't let him come close to the tables, whereas in some other pubs they won't mind and even bring a bit of water for the dog with a smile. Some people would find noisy cars during yesterday's football celebration inappropriate because some people were sleeping, others would say that on such occasions the noise of partying people is only normal.

In my native Belgium there's uproar after a court decision regarding a daycare center for very young children (where they stay while mom and dad are both working). The neighbours found the approx 40 children too noisy and filed a lawsuit. The lawyer agreed with their call and restricted the daycare center to 15 kids maximum. Some said it was totally intolerant to make such decision and that the neighbours were bitter people and egocentric. Some others then said the judge was right because a daycare center full of noisy kids doesn't belong in the center of a town and that everyone is entitled to a bit of rest while at home.
(ironically I used to live in that town, and indeed there were more suitable locations with more space and less houses nearby - that is irrelevant to the debate however weither such a daycare center with playing kids is a bother or if the neighbours were just being sour and intolerant)

All I'm saying is: "appropriate" cannot be defined, because opinions and interpretations vary from person to person.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

gerrit said:


> All I'm saying is: "appropriate" cannot be defined, because opinions and interpretations vary from person to person.


Whilst that is true, life couldn't function if that were the guiding rule. That kind of relativism leads to social anarchy at its worst and mild disfunction at best.
We already set standards in areas of social interaction by declaring that some actions(theft, assault etc.) are illegal and transgressors will be punished.
To take extreme cases: some Muslims believe that female circumcision is appropriate in their version of Islamic law. Some Christians oppose gay priests.
Some people think eating meat is immoral and so on..
In order for life to go on reasonably harmoniously, responsible mature people accept some restrictions on their freedoms. 
We have to 'sign up' to an accepted common code of social conduct....but the problem is deciding just what that should be at any given time.
In the case of Salou this should be relatively easy to ascertain....


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

A well behaved dog is a delight.. it's just a pity they cannot go on their own and leave some of their masters behind. I am a dog person but there are people who are genuinely scared of dogs and it doesn't matter if they are sitting in the far corner of the room all they can do is keep glancing at the dog to make sure it hasn't moved.
I go to a local social club here in Cairo, it has a large garden and welcomed children and dogs, dogs are no longer welcome because of course children run pass tables and more than one child has had their ankles nipped.. not the dogs fault, I cannot understand why people insist on taking their dog out for a walk in 40f and then expect it to sit in a pub garden and not be cranky. The dog would be so much happier at home in the shade away from kids running and screaming.

I do not like going out for a meal and find children running around my table, this is not my idea of a relaxing night out and even more so when my children were small and I had arranged a babysitter to look after them so that I could have a nice meal without my kids only to find some other family using my table as a playground.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

MaidenScotland said:


> A well behaved dog is a delight.. it's just a pity they cannot go on their own and leave some of their masters behind. I am a dog person but there are people who are genuinely scared of dogs and it doesn't matter if they are sitting in the far corner of the room all they can do is keep glancing at the dog to make sure it hasn't moved.
> I go to a local social club here in Cairo, it has a large garden and welcomed children and dogs, dogs are no longer welcome because of course children run pass tables and more than one child has had their ankles nipped.. not the dogs fault, I cannot understand why people insist on taking their dog out for a walk in 40f and then expect it to sit in a pub garden and not be cranky. The dog would be so much happier at home in the shade away from kids running and screaming.
> 
> I do not like going out for a meal and find children running around my table, this is not my idea of a relaxing night out and even more so when my children were small and I had arranged a babysitter to look after them so that I could have a nice meal without my kids only to find some other family using my table as a playground.


Well-behaved dogs and well-behaved children are like that as a result of a lot of consistent effort.
But without that input, you're setting yourself up for BIG trouble....with both!


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## gerrit (Jul 15, 2008)

mrypg9 said:


> Whilst that is true, life couldn't function if that were the guiding rule. That kind of relativism leads to social anarchy at its worst and mild disfunction at best.
> We already set standards in areas of social interaction by declaring that some actions(theft, assault etc.) are illegal and transgressors will be punished.
> To take extreme cases: some Muslims believe that female circumcision is appropriate in their version of Islamic law. Some Christians oppose gay priests.
> Some people think eating meat is immoral and so on..
> ...


While this is true, the problem is who has to set those standards. In the end I don't think you can compare things like theft to -random example- if a dog should be allowed in a hotel. The latter in a way can be very easy: leave it up to the restaurant/hotel/shop owner if he wishes to accomodate to those with a dog or not. Probably the result will be that the majority doesn't allow it while an exception here and there makes good profits because all those with a dog will have few other options than going to that specific dining place where the dog is welcome. Things like this can be left up to the owner of the establishment.

That said, in case an establishment causes noise overload (be it by barking dogs or screaming kids, or by for example a disco playing their music loud enough that the whole street can hear it) it becomes a matter for the police to resolve. To set the limits what to allow and not allow is a grey zone and not an easy one due to varying opinions. But that said, I haven't known of that many cases where such overload was caused.

Still I believe some tolerance is needed. I oppose eating meat in my own values, but I wouldn't ever try to enforce my vegetarianism on others. I don't have issues to join friends who eat meat on a meal as long as there is a veggie option available as well. People buying a house next to a kindergarten know that they can expect the noise of children on a playground, to name another random example.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

gerrit said:


> While this is true, the problem is who has to set those standards. In the end I don't think you can compare things like theft to -random example- if a dog should be allowed in a hotel. The latter in a way can be very easy: leave it up to the restaurant/hotel/shop owner if he wishes to accomodate to those with a dog or not. Probably the result will be that the majority doesn't allow it while an exception here and there makes good profits because all those with a dog will have few other options than going to that specific dining place where the dog is welcome. Things like this can be left up to the owner of the establishment.
> 
> That said, in case an establishment causes noise overload (be it by barking dogs or screaming kids, or by for example a disco playing their music loud enough that the whole street can hear it) it becomes a matter for the police to resolve. To set the limits what to allow and not allow is a grey zone and not an easy one due to varying opinions. But that said, I haven't known of that many cases where such overload was caused.
> 
> Still I believe some tolerance is needed. I oppose eating meat in my own values, but I wouldn't ever try to enforce my vegetarianism on others. I don't have issues to join friends who eat meat on a meal as long as there is a veggie option available as well. People buying a house next to a kindergarten know that they can expect the noise of children on a playground, to name another random example.


All standards are arbitrary, in a way, and change as customs, levels of education and moral 'tolerance' change. For example, some years ago in the UK, when I was a local politician, I was a member of a committee whose function was to view and perhaps ban any films that might be thought to be 'obscene' and 'indecent'. I thought this was both dangerous and silly and successfully managed to get the committee to dissolve itself. It's up to adults to decide what they view. Seeing a film in a place set aside for that is a private act. Nowadays films with much more explicit sexual content can be seen on mainstream tv.
And who would have thought that Catholic Spain would have allowed gay marriage?
The conflict between 'freedom from' and 'freedom to' is difficult. But that's worthwhile if the end result is that most of us can live our lives free from interference by the morals police.
What a pity that you don't live nearer, we could discuss this over a beer or vino.


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## dunmovin (Dec 19, 2008)

mrypg9 said:


> All standards are arbitrary, in a way, and change as customs, levels of education and moral 'tolerance' change. For example, some years ago in the UK, when I was a local politician, I was a member of a committee whose function was to view and perhaps ban any films that might be thought to be 'obscene' and 'indecent'. I thought this was both dangerous and silly and successfully managed to get the committee to dissolve itself. It's up to adults to decide what they view. Seeing a film in a place set aside for that is a private act. Nowadays films with much more explicit sexual content can be seen on mainstream tv.
> And who would have thought that Catholic Spain would have allowed gay marriage?
> The conflict between 'freedom from' and 'freedom to' is difficult. But that's worthwhile if the end result is that most of us can live our lives free from interference by the morals police.
> What a pity that you don't live nearer, we could discuss this over a beer or vino.


I'm guessing that your original intention for joining that committee was to, if not get it dissolved, was to inject a "voice of reason" into the debates on what was suitable or not. If must have been a sad day when you decided to retire from politics. Too few of the recent politicians would try to do anything about the progress of the nanny state culture


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## gerrit (Jul 15, 2008)

I'd like to join a political party but when frequently emigrating it becomes less easy to do so. Long distance politics isn't ideal. However, even without being electable, just debate openly and your voice can matter as well (regardless of what is your political opinion)


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

dunmovin said:


> I'm guessing that your original intention for joining that committee was to, if not get it dissolved, was to inject a "voice of reason" into the debates on what was suitable or not. If must have been a sad day when you decided to retire from politics. Too few of the recent politicians would try to do anything about the progress of the nanny state culture


I think its title was 'Viewing and Licensing Committee' and it was a statutory requirement to have such a Committee (we also had a Civil Defence and Emergency Committee which I also managed to get dissolved as our plans for dealing with a nuclear attack were preposterous -involving using local pub cellars as shelters and the Mayor (ME at the time!!!!!) patrolling the streets as soon as it was safe to 'reassure people' and the local Emergency Officer was scheduled to address a meeting of the Committee but couldn't make it because of stormy weather....You couldn't make it up...).
As for the Viewing Committee -the other members were a local titled Lady, the Vicar and a stuttering local village Sub Postmaster. We only saw one film after I joined - a whole row of seats at the town cinema was booked for us and we all watched a French soft porn film while a Clerk sat with us taking notes. Hilarious, really. The film was utter tosh and not very erotic, really, at least not imo.
I'm not sure my fellow local politicians thought it a sad day when I resigned from my offices. After over thirty years of membership I was expelled from the Party I had represented because I disagreed with their position over local government reform and refused to sign a declaration that I would abide by majority decisions. So I sat as an Independent for a while until the next election. Ironically, policy changed and the way I wanted to go is now accepted Party policy.
I hate being 'told' what to do, like most British people, and believe very strongly in individual freedom with a strong social conscience.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

gerrit said:


> I'd like to join a political party but when frequently emigrating it becomes less easy to do so. Long distance politics isn't ideal. However, even without being electable, just debate openly and your voice can matter as well (regardless of what is your political opinion)


I wish that were true, gerrit, but many years of being politically active has taught me that no-one in power really listens to anyone...Sorry to be so cynical but it's the truth as I experienced it.


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## dunmovin (Dec 19, 2008)

I didn't mean "your fellow politicians" I was meaning the people that mattered...the ones who elected you.lane:


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

dunmovin said:


> I didn't mean "your fellow politicians" I was meaning the people that mattered...the ones who elected you.lane:



You're very kind I should buy you a beer......or G&T....whatever...


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