# Spanish unemployment hits record 5.64 million



## maxd (Mar 22, 2009)

BBC News - Spanish unemployment hits record 5.64 million

30% of all EU unemployed now reside in Spain. Not a good idea. On the bright side 30% of the economy is cash in hand so from this statistic probably 1.5 million have jobs.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

maxd said:


> BBC News - Spanish unemployment hits record 5.64 million
> 
> 30% of all EU unemployed now reside in Spain. Not a good idea.


 

I'm going to copy that to the 'Economic' sticky


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## maxd (Mar 22, 2009)

I can't imagine the proportion of public finances going to prop up that. Absolutely insane amounts of money.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

maxd said:


> I can't imagine the proportion of public finances going to prop up that. Absolutely insane amounts of money.


not sure I understand :confused2:

a huge number of them won't be getting any state help


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## maxd (Mar 22, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> not sure I understand :confused2:
> 
> a huge number of them won't be getting any state help


2 years dole money and then you go to the social minimum, everyone is getting something.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

maxd said:


> 2 years dole money and then you go to the social minimum, everyone is getting something.


a _maximum_ of 2 years dole - many get much less, I think you have to have worked for 6 years in order to qualify for 2 years paro - & they only get something if they were lucky enough to have had a contracted job

if you were self-employed I believe you get nothing

how much is the _social minimum_ & how do you qualify?


I'd be interested to see a link


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## maxd (Mar 22, 2009)

I am not expert apart from making several people in Madrid and Barcelona redundant. Leave this for someone else.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

maxd said:


> I can't imagine the proportion of public finances going to prop up that. Absolutely insane amounts of money.


But as you seem to approve of the third of the economy being 'cash in hand' what do you expect?

If people are unemployed, do you expect them to live on air?

Spain is suffering from the busted flush of the construction bubble which itself could only have been made possible by the free movement of capital across EU member states which funded it.

This is what happens when your economy is based on such flimsy foundations. Construction booms, dot-com ephemera....not a sound footing for a healthy economy.

The way things are going politically in Europe, I foresee moves to seriously restrict if not close down some of the essential provisions of the Maastricht Treaty. Uniformity of business taxes, restrictions on foreign capital holdings, restrictions on mobility of labour, restrictions on free trade... The EU of ten years time will no way resemble today's EU. 

Mass migration of people and capital will soon be viewed as the economically and socially damaging constructs that they indeed are. Manufacturing and useful production will take centre stage again.

Events in France, Holland, Belgium, Finland, Norway, Sweden and Hungary where anti-EU, anti-immigrant, anti-Euro political parties determine the stance or even stability of governments point the way to the future.

And has the Czech Republic got a stable government yet? I have never come across a more amateurish, venal and downright incompetent bunch of pretend politicians as in Prague. 
Yet living is still comparatively cheap in the CR as in most former Soviet-bloc states so perhaps we should encourage would-be immigrants to Spain to head further East?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

maxd said:


> I am not expert apart from making several people in Madrid and Barcelona redundant. Leave this for someone else.


I think we all know that!

As you consider yourself to be a capitalist (which we all are to a greater or lesser degree) you must be well aware that there must be purchasing power within any economy which enables people to spend beyond the essentials- food, shelter, heating and so on. Without this margin of disposable income, people survive on what is basically subsistence level. 

So...even looking at your cut-price operation which works in conjunction with an equally low-margin cut-price airline sector....how do you expect to maintain let alone increase your customer volume in the next ten years? Your branch of your business started a mere four years ago, if I remember rightly, at a time when the destructive forces underlying our bubble economy hadn't worked through to the surface.

With unemployment rising in Europe, steep rises on the cards for aviation especially the budget airlines, huge debt burdens in nearly all EU states....if you have large numbers of people who either have no jobs or if they have jobs are afraid to spend what money they have because of future uncertainty...where is the 'spare money' to spend on the inessentials...the holidays, however cheap, the new car, the new furniture?

Ordinary working people are not going to put up with hardship when they themselves have played little or no role in creating the crisis which has caused the hardship. 
Yes, there are people who are doing very nicely, thankyou...my son and his wife are a good example. Both working in finance, both very well-off. But they aren't in the market for anything 'cheap', whether cars or holidays. And they are not typical.

Successful capitalists take the long view. They invest their profits in their undertakings. They pay good salaries and wages and train their staff. They know that the demand side of the economy is vital to the success of their undertaking. They know that rising crime and civil unrest caused by unemployment is bad for business.

And then there are the Ponzis and Bernie Madoffs of this world....

I rest my case.


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## maxd (Mar 22, 2009)

Mary you really do not understand our business model. We have huge fixed costs by renting buildings at market rates and then make a premium by renting it out nightly.

We will have been in business in Spain for 10 years come next March. Our business has been around since 99 in Europe. Our volume has been increasing year upon year.Contrary to what you say the short term rental business is experiencing a bit of a boom. People are fed up with pricey city hotels when they now know you can get 80m2, sleep more people with more privacy. This sector really is on fire now.

I know you are having a dig because you like a cyber fight, but your facts are pretty far from the truth. 

You also seem to think that we shirk our responsibilities. You should see our monthly VAT bill/Social along with the 100k we paid out in serverance pay. We do more than enough to pay for the unemployed thanks. As well as keeping dozens of building owners happy through renting, all thorugh the books I might add.


I think you could be referring to me mentioning previously that I do not mind paying workmen cash in hand for private jobs. Yes, guilty as charged for a private job around my house, I could get a receipt for my business and claim it back anyway. 

On the whole we are wealth creators and give vast amounts to society, so no lectures on contributing to society please. I am fed up with governments being in our pockets all the time.

As for people not travelling, people always take their holidays. You should see Prague today, an absolutely insane amount of people here. I think we are lucky in that respect, we offer more space for less money and in the current climate people need to look at the pennies.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

maxd said:


> Mary you really do not understand our business model. We have huge fixed costs by renting buildings at market rates and then make a premium by renting it out nightly.
> 
> We will have been in business in Spain for 10 years come next March. Our business has been around since 99 in Europe. Our volume has been increasing year upon year.Contrary to what you say the short term rental business is experiencing a bit of a boom. People are fed up with pricey city hotels when they now know you can get 80m2, sleep more people with more privacy. This sector really is on fire now.
> 
> ...


You miss the point, max, which is that your model is extremely vulnerable to market fluctuations and that the current economic model is not one that is indefinitely sustainable.
You say you contribute to society yet you complain about social costs so I guess you don't do it wilingly....although I guess you are not alone in that. I also remember some of your previous posts where you explain how you should avoid tax due by operating in lax east European tax regimes. 
Facts show that people do not always take their holidays. Foreign visitors to Andalucia are down by 10% in the first few months of this year. If you object to what you call 'generous' welfare payments (millions of Spaniards would disagree with you) you must admit that your potentialcustomer base is going to decline.
There will always be a large amount of people in Prague because it specialises in cheap no-frills tourism..stag parties and the like. Much of the apartment accommodation in Prague caters for that kind of market. Cheap and cheerful. I prefer a good class hotel but I can see the attraction for many people. 
But my post wasn't about your business model. I'll give my opinion of your business model when you've been trading for twenty years not twelve...My point is that the current economic philosophy which you have said often you admire and support isn't working. As you pointed out, one in four Spaniards is unemployed although as you also pointed out in your estimation 30% of economic activity goes unaccounted for officially which in your post you seemed to approve.
An economy where one-third is under the radar isn't a workable model.
Taxation pays not only for unemployment pay but also for infrastructure...the airports the budget carriers use, the roads your clients travel on, the health services that keep people fit and healthy enough to be able to plan and enjoy holidays.
Ordinary people in the UK and Spain cannot be expected to continue making sacrifices regarding pay and the social wage. Wise politicians know that the days of the free market are coming to an end.
It is highly unlikely that the EU as we know it today will exist in ten years time. I wouldn't have thought that a year ago but I do now. 
We need to get back to a rule-based economy with restrictions on trade, capital movements and free movement of workers. We need to get back to the basic economics of making things. 
Service sector businesses like yours have a symbiotic relationship with a manufacturing -based economy. They bake the cake, you put the icing on it. Both need eaxh other.
But unless we see a radical change of economic philosophy in Europe there will be no cake to put icing on.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

The financial advisor that I use has advised me to remove all financial equities out of Europe and invest in other markets. We are accepting the advice.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Hepa said:


> The financial advisor that I use has advised me to remove all financial equities out of Europe and invest in other markets. We are accepting the advice.


Sensible advice. Unemployment is increasing across Europe, the peripheral EU economies are either insolvent (Greece) or seriously illiquid (Italy, Spain, Portugal -the latter possibly also insolvent).


Something's got to give. You can only squeeze people to a certain point. I think that point is being approached in more than one EU state.

I note that Osborne is using Fox to soften the British public for more cuts, more unemployment, a lower social wage.

And to what end? Who will benefit from this austerity?

No prizes for a correct response as the answer is so bleedin' obvious...


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## carrinto (May 27, 2011)

So let me understand this, there is a huge economic crisis intensifying in Europe so move into equities 'elsewhere' presumably those 'elsewhere' economies are to some extent dependent upon exports to Europe yet they are the places to shift your equity investments. I have yet to meet any financial adviser who knew that much about emerging economies, other than to pretend they do to encourage you to part with your money. Of course he can't lose, indeed he gains the more advice you need and the more your investments are moved around the more they earn. I suggest you invest in some investment houses and financial advisers. Shouldn't you be questioning equities rather than geographic considerations


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

carrinto said:


> So let me understand this, there is a huge economic crisis intensifying in Europe so move into equities 'elsewhere' presumably those 'elsewhere' economies are to some extent dependent upon exports to Europe yet they are the places to shift your equity investments. I have yet to meet any financial adviser who knew that much about emerging economies, other than to pretend they do to encourage you to part with your money. Of course he can't lose, indeed he gains the more advice you need and the more your investments are moved around the more they earn. I suggest you invest in some investment houses and financial advisers. Shouldn't you be questioning equities rather than geographic considerations


Not quite sure what point you're making.

Some economies are doing very nicely, thankyou, with no great dependency on Europe. India, China, Brazil, Singapore, the South-East Asian economies...in fact any economy that hasn't implemented the Anglo--Saxon free market model has shown growth.
Not sure how you would separate equities from geographical considerations..


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

14% gain in the last few years.

I think I will stay with my adviser


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Hepa said:


> 14% gain in the last few years.
> 
> I think I will stay with my adviser



So would I if I got that return on my money.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Hepa said:


> 14% gain in the last few years.
> 
> I think I will stay with my adviser


Who is it? (or it isn't true)


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> a _maximum_ of 2 years dole - many get much less, I think you have to have worked for 6 years in order to qualify for 2 years paro - & they only get something if they were lucky enough to have had a contracted job
> 
> if you were self-employed I believe you get nothing
> 
> ...



http://ec.europa.eu/employment_soci...U/Your social security rights in Spain_en.pdf

Chapter X

Maxd, it's worse than your initial post. Of all the legal autonomo's , small sl's that I used to deal with , 75% of the work done doesn't go through the books !
Until they sort ot the ridiculous amounts payable for soc.sec. then the situation is going to continue. 
I could pick up a small amount of work but would only do it legally. Why would I work to pay the government 67% of the income ? 

I personally know of Brits earning around 1k monthly all cash , others who are legal where only the absolute minimum goes through the books, & Spaniards ; well the list is endless ! One I know generates 3k a week from spring until late september , & disappeared off the radar 14 years ago. Makes you wonder why they don't question what all these people live on who aren't employed or unemployed ? 
Personally I think that at least 75% of the economy around here is off the books !


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

We have advertised a job which no one has applied for.
A friend asked me about a job for his sons girlfriend last year and twice he has assured us she is going to call up and see us..she has never appeared. 
Yes it makes me wonder if the figures are correct..


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

MaidenScotland said:


> We have advertised a job which no one has applied for.
> A friend asked me about a job for his sons girlfriend last year and twice he has assured us she is going to call up and see us..she has never appeared.
> Yes it makes me wonder if the figures are correct..


I won't go into the trouble we've had in finding a reliable gardener who also pays autonomo....
We've got one now but sadly he is not Spanish although has been here for thirty years.
I would much prefer to have a Spaniard but the one Spanish guy we did have was unreliable, idle, stole tools and was a drunk.
And didn't pay autonomo although he had several clients in spite of his vices -many were absentee owners so didn't know what he was like - and earned a lot of money.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

gus-lopez said:


> http://ec.europa.eu/employment_soci...U/Your social security rights in Spain_en.pdf
> 
> Chapter X
> 
> ...


Well, max knows well that the situation in the Czech Republic where he is based is as bad if not worse.
We rented a house owned by a grasping guy called Milos. We paid him a total of around £2k a month in rent for a house with outside covered pool. His son owned a new house for which he charged £3k a month rent.
We discovered that both these crooks declared these houses as their residences so they paid no tax. They lived in a large municipally-owned apartment in Central Prague for which they paid a peppercorn rent.
Whenever we had work done -on our car, small repairs and so on...it was customary to be asked for cash...no invoice, no receipt.
Czech politicians are inept, corrupt and extremely childish and vindictive. The prevailing atmosphere is one of closed minds and acceptance of the second -rate.
Our Czech friends were involved in politics, the arts and the liberal professions, extremely sophisticated well-travelled people,people who despaired of their country.
I think such conditions arise from decades of totalitarianism and in the Czech case, perhaps to not having a coast.


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> I won't go into the trouble we've had in finding a reliable gardener who also pays autonomo....
> We've got one now but sadly he is not Spanish although has been here for thirty years.
> I would much prefer to have a Spaniard but the one Spanish guy we did have was unreliable, idle, stole tools and was a drunk.
> And didn't pay autonomo although he had several clients in spite of his vices -many were absentee owners so didn't know what he was like - and earned a lot of money.




The job we are advertising is legal and we will pay SS just no one wants it.. it's not the money as we have not put in what we are paying. So where are all these unemployed?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

MaidenScotland said:


> The job we are advertising is legal and we will pay SS just no one wants it.. it's not the money as we have not put in what we are paying. So where are all these unemployed?


Working on the black, pocketing loads of tax-free cash, using public services then complaining that they're not good enough....


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