# The Case against Buying Property in Spain



## Leper

Looking through several Fora regarding purchase of investment property in Spain it is obvious that vested interests are talking up the future. Nothing could be further from the truth. 

Property is much cheaper than six years ago - True.
There has never been a better time to buy - False.

Property prices are increasing in Europe (e.g. increased 40% in Ireland) so the same will happen in Spain? - Not comparing like with like. Spain is oversubscribed with holiday homes while there is an acute shortage of houses in Ireland. There is no shortage of property in Spain. In fact the (Spanish) investment property market is overcome with people trying to unload at huge loss.

There may be occasional increases in prices in Spain depending on the availability of some cash purchasers. These are seasonal only and there will not be any great upturn for quite some years into the future.

I cringe when I hear of retired people purchasing these days. You cannot compare the property market in the UK and Spain. It is like comparing Miss Universe with Little Miss Sunshine.

If you want to live the dream I suggest you do not sell your home in the UK. Come to Spain but rent, rent, rent and do not purchase. Then you will have all the advantages with least outlay. Do not be duped by vested interests or false dreams.


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## davexf

Hola

I beg to differ - owning a home for a newly retired person may prove profitable if they don't die until 90 years old - 25 years hence. My opinion is that the market is around the bottom and will womble around current prices for some while - but won´t reduce by much 

Davexf


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## Pazcat

Profits, profits, profits.

Not really why most buy a home to begin with and if anything it sounds like a reason not to sell rather than buy.
I would much rather buy a house now than wait until the prices rise again, that would be poor form.

That said our experience of trying to buy has been so demoralising that there is no point in bothering anymore. There are hundreds of reasons before market fluctuations to be very careful about purchasing in Spain and they have all gotten in our way it seems.


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## jojo

Yes, buying a property in spain at the present time isnt necessarily a good "investment" financially. But sometimes, its about life and living, not just looking for profit or making money - thats partly what got the Spanish economy in a mess to start with

Jo xxx


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## Dunpleecin

Ah yes, renting. Isn't that where you put 500€ into someone's pocket every month and at the end of a period of time there is nothing to show for it, whereas if you took out a mortgage for half that you're well on the way to owning the same place that you can sell? Even if you can't sell immediately you can rent it out to get your money back.

Never understood the mentality of long term renting. I know some people HAVE to owing to circumstances, but given the choice, assuming I was in an area I wanted to stay and wasn't just moving around all the time, I'd rather know that what I was spending on property was going to be mine in the long term.


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## Lolito

We rented for 4 years, and now we have bought our house. The house that we coudn't afford 4 years ago, now is ours. As we don't want to make any profit whatsoever, but just to live and be happy there, we think we have done a good thing. At least now, we are mortgage free, something that 4 years ago, we thought would never happen. 

Now I don't care much if they go down even more or if they don't go up at all. I have got what I wanted, so I am very happy!


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## Isobella

Agree with Leper. Keep the UK house, rent it out and use the money to rent a nice place in Spain. If buyers had listened to property websites over the past few years they would be considerably out of pocket as they have been claiming now is the time to buy for the last 3years, at least. I am not keen on living in a rented house but it makes sense in Spain right now. Buy and if you decide to move you could be stuck with it for years.


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## Lynn R

I agree that no-one should buy if they are looking at it as an investment.

I've never bought a house as an investment in my life (not that I've bought many), nor have I ever rented one. I bought my house here initially as a holiday home with a view to moving over permanently when we were able to, which is what we did, at which time I sold my UK house. Thought about renting it out, but didn't want the hassle (have friends and relatives who have, and they've had enough problems with non-paying tenants, damage to the property, and so on when they're nearby to deal with them, so the idea of being a landlord whilst living in another country didn't appeal, and if you pay someone else to do it it just eats into the rental, not to mention the expense of repairs and the tax on the rent. 

Everybody is different, but personally I like the security of knowing the roof over my head is bought and paid for, and I can make any changes I like to the property to suit my own taste. 

We will probably look to move from this house in a few years' time (we like the house and will be sad to leave, but there might be accessibility issues as we get older). At times I've thought that I'd prefer to rent if we leave here rather than buying again, so have looked at properties that are for rent in the town where we live (where we would want to stay as we like it and it has everything we need). As of today, on idealista.com for example there are just 58 properties available to rent (none of which I'd want to live in) and about 10 times that many available to buy - some of which I'd buy as I'd know I could change what I wanted to change about them.

If I rent, I won't get back any of the money I've spent on rent. If I buy, even if I had to sell and lost money on the deal, at least I'd get some of it back, or my heirs would if I died (despite having to pay inheritance tax on it). And I'd feel happier and more secure in the meantime.


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## jojo

Dunpleecin said:


> Ah yes, renting. Isn't that where you put 500€ into someone's pocket every month and at the end of a period of time there is nothing to show for it, whereas if you took out a mortgage for half that you're well on the way to owning the same place that you can sell? Even if you can't sell immediately you can rent it out to get your money back.
> 
> Never understood the mentality of long term renting. I know some people HAVE to owing to circumstances, but given the choice, assuming I was in an area I wanted to stay and wasn't just moving around all the time, I'd rather know that what I was spending on property was going to be mine in the long term.



Maybe, altho an example of recent times: A house rented in Spain costs 1000€ a month. You stay there for 10 months so = 10,000€ spent. During that time, said property loses 50,000€ and then some.......!!! Not to mention, had you have bought that property, you have to put approx 10% on top of the price, renting isnt always successful in many ways and then trying to sell it if you need to return to the UK and need the money????

Jo xxx


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## Isobella

Good point Jo. Also if you had kept the UK house it would have added an average of £20,000 in a year.


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## jojo

Isobella said:


> Good point Jo. Also if you had kept the UK house it would have added an average of £20,000 in a year.


...... and if you kept the UK house, it could have been rented out and thus negating the rent on the Spanish house

Jo xxx


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## Alcalaina

I've lived in far too many rented places over the years to ever want some landlord hovering over me again. We own our house outright and it's our home. I don't care how much it's worth now or in future or what happens to it after I'm dead. The security of owning your own home is priceless.


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## Guest

Prices have definitely and consistently risen in this area over the last year. Houses which have been on the market for years are selling and the only ones which are not are those which are ridiculously overpriced. Construction has restarted on a large urb. Equally, we hear that in other places, e.g., Torrevieja, you would even struggle to give your house away. I suspect the market has bottomed out and some areas are now starting to emerge from the slump whilst others are still firmly in the pit so it will be a messy picture for some time. Were someone to do their research, it is a good time to buy, and indeed they would need to move fast in some areas as the best bargains are being snapped up. Of course the politicos are talking up the small pockets of progress which are being made (have you ever known a politician who tells the truth?) but some movement is taking place. So it's all down to one's general attitude to property purchase and the presence or absence that destructive need to look back to the place from whence one came and keep a route back open "in case". Why not just come and commit to staying???

Please note: The above statement about politicians doesn't apply to Mary -


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## Rabbitcat

Which areas specifically, are prices picking up ? Thanks


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## PS51

Rabbitcat said:


> Which areas specifically, are prices picking up ? Thanks


 Not Cave dwellings , it would seem

Pete


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## Trusetyven

Bad investment?? 

I am on my third year in Spain. Me and my gf have paid 650 eur monthly for a nice flat in Barcelona centre. 

Now we are looking for a house

We have found some nice houses for sale in Sitges for around 500-550000 eur
Rental price for a house like this would start from 2500

In my opinion the "bad investment" would be to give away 2500 monthly for something I do not own, rather that paying 2500 on a mortage with only 1,8-2,0% interest.


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## Leper

I did not realize that within 12 hours I would have got such reaction to my Case for not Purchasing Property as an Investment in Spain. Perhaps I should have asked for each contributor to inform us of his/her vested interest, if any. Anybody involved in the Real Estate business would obviously rubbish my post. 

Most people who purchased say 12/13 years ago would show a paper profit even now if selling their purchase. Most who purchased 10 years ago would show a hurtful acute loss. OK somebody who purchased last year might show another "profit" - but remember when you sell you pay taxes of the so-called profit. This profit is sucked up, eaten up, swallowed by Spanish taxes, real estate commissions and legal vultures. They are all in this together. It is too legal to call it a blatant scam.

Do not get caught up in the false hopes perpetrated by avaricious advantage takers especially of gullible retired people. Now that prices are at their cheapest why are these people not buying up all and sundry? They are not doing this, you know! Wise people.

If you are nearing retirement and wish to live the dream. Rent, Rent, Rent before you live the Nightmare.


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## PS51

I certainly agree with the idea of renting in a few areas before a purchase.


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## Jumar

Just met a British couple who arrived in Spain on Thursday, drove down to Teruel to overnight and arrived in Totana on Friday night. Spent the weekend here and said they were going to look around for somewhere to rent for the winter. I told them they were doing the right thing in renting. They have never been here before so don't know anything about the area. They left on Monday morning and returned here Tuesday afternoon after having paid a deposit on a property to buy! They have now found a rental property until they can move into their new house. Thoughts???


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## maxd

Honestly who is this guy to presume he knows everyone's motivations for buying, the price they bought at and if it makes sense and he also has a crystal ball knowing how to time the market.

My neighbour makes 40-50k GBP year in year out from his rental villa in the Canaries. My other neighbour bought his place for or 220k has a huge chunk of land with a sea view and plans on retiring there over the next 10 years. He is over the moon with his purchase.

We bought a 5 bedrooom villa way below build cost from someone who was facing bankruptcy, I will also rent it out for plenty of money when we are not there.

When the cost to buy is far less than building it is a good gauge that things are cheap. I would say ignore Leper's advice and just do what is right for you.


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## Lynn R

Leper said:


> I did not realize that within 12 hours I would have got such reaction to my Case for not Purchasing Property as an Investment in Spain. Perhaps I should have asked for each contributor to inform us of his/her vested interest, if any. Anybody involved in the Real Estate business would obviously rubbish my post.
> 
> Most people who purchased say 12/13 years ago would show a paper profit even now if selling their purchase. Most who purchased 10 years ago would show a hurtful acute loss. OK somebody who purchased last year might show another "profit" - but remember when you sell you pay taxes of the so-called profit. This profit is sucked up, eaten up, swallowed by Spanish taxes, real estate commissions and legal vultures. They are all in this together. It is too legal to call it a blatant scam.
> 
> Do not get caught up in the false hopes perpetrated by avaricious advantage takers especially of gullible retired people. Now that prices are at their cheapest why are these people not buying up all and sundry? They are not doing this, you know! Wise people.
> 
> If you are nearing retirement and wish to live the dream. Rent, Rent, Rent before you live the Nightmare.


I find your post somewhat offensive, particularly the first paragraph. I don't think anybody rubbished your post, just gave their own opinions which they are surely entitled to.

Speaking for myself, I have no connection whatsoever with the property industry neither as an estate agent, lawyer nor anything else. I simply own the property I live in (and it isn't for sale), and no other properties anywhere. I prefer to own the property I live in rather than rent it for the reasons I gave earlier. The suggestion that those who replied have vested interests is offensive.

I am not buying up any other property because (a) I couldn't afford to and (b) I don't want any other properties anyway. One could ask how many of the people exhorting others not to buy are living in rented property themselves as their main home, on a long term basis, if they think it's such a good idea?


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## Dunpleecin

Lynn R said:


> I find your post somewhat offensive, particularly the first paragraph. I don't think anybody rubbished your post, just gave their own opinions which they are surely entitled to.
> 
> Speaking for myself, I have no connection whatsoever with the property industry neither as an estate agent, lawyer nor anything else. I simply own the property I live in (and it isn't for sale), and no other properties anywhere. I prefer to own the property I live in rather than rent it for the reasons I gave earlier. The suggestion that those who replied have vested interests is offensive.
> 
> I am not buying up any other property because (a) I couldn't afford to and (b) I don't want any other properties anyway. One could ask how many of the people exhorting others not to buy are living in rented property themselves as their main home, on a long term basis, if they think it's such a good idea?


Excellent post.


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## Leper

Lynn R said:


> I find your post somewhat offensive, particularly the first paragraph. I don't think anybody rubbished your post, just gave their own opinions which they are surely entitled to.
> 
> Speaking for myself, I have no connection whatsoever with the property industry neither as an estate agent, lawyer nor anything else. I simply own the property I live in (and it isn't for sale), and no other properties anywhere. I prefer to own the property I live in rather than rent it for the reasons I gave earlier. The suggestion that those who replied have vested interests is offensive.
> 
> I am not buying up any other property because (a) I couldn't afford to and (b) I don't want any other properties anyway. One could ask how many of the people exhorting others not to buy are living in rented property themselves as their main home, on a long term basis, if they think it's such a good idea?


Lynn, you're out of order. I would not put up a post to offend anybody. Nobody rubbished my post either. I am talking about people who dupe naive retirees into buying Spanish property as an investment.

Now if you can inform me there are no such tricksters operating in Spain I will gladly withdraw my post. I put up the post to put gullible people on their guard. Only a few short weeks ago while conducting business for a friend in a Real Estate Agent's Office I overheard a conversation with two Brit pensioners who were being spun every auctioneering term to sell them an overpriced property. Worse again in a recent 'Home in the Sun' (probably not the correct title) television programme re-run an auctioneer informed a couple that the new high speed railway line between Alicante Airport and Almería would be completed the following year. The programme went out on air several years ago and now facing into 2015 still the rail link is not working and will not be working for years. The auctioneers lies were broadcast on television to thousands of wannabe Spanish homeowners.

So please inform me that people have not been duped, lied to, spun yarns, convinced untruthfully and gladly I'll go into an early siesta and sleep with ease.

Now, Lynn (much as I enjoy your posts) I look forward to hearing from you.


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## Lolito

I agree that it is wiser to rent for a bit before buying, but some people can make up their minds and do exactly the opposite, each to their own I suppose. However, if you want to buy, I think this is the perfect time to do so, surely you don't want to spend the rest of your live paying rent on a house where you need to ask the landlord if you can make a 'hole' to put a picture on the wall? 

If you have the means, buy and be happy. We bought last month and moving in very soon, knowing it is my house and we can do whatever we want to do without contacting the agents, it looks silly but it an important thing, and knowing you are mortgage free!!, hahaha! 

According to the news, mortgages are going up in the last 2-3 months by a lot. It looks like people are buying again, but this time, at the RIGHT price.

Oooops! ... and I am not a retiree!! We are only on our young fourties... lol! Not everybody that moves to Spain is 'old'... lol!


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## Lolito

Leper said:


> Lynn, you're out of order. I would not put up a post to offend anybody. Nobody rubbished my post either. I am talking about people who dupe naive retirees into buying Spanish property as an investment.
> 
> Now if you can inform me there are no such tricksters operating in Spain I will gladly withdraw my post. I put up the post to put gullible people on their guard. Only a few short weeks ago while conducting business for a friend in a Real Estate Agent's Office I overheard a conversation with two Brit pensioners who were being spun every auctioneering term to sell them an overpriced property. Worse again in a recent 'Home in the Sun' (probably not the correct title) television programme re-run an auctioneer informed a couple that the new high speed railway line between Alicante Airport and Almería would be completed the following year. The programme went out on air several years ago and now facing into 2015 still the rail link is not working and will not be working for years. The auctioneers lies were broadcast on television to thousands of wannabe Spanish homeowners.
> 
> So please inform me that people have not been duped, lied to, spun yarns, convinced untruthfully and gladly I'll go into an early siesta and sleep with ease.
> 
> Now, Lynn (much as I enjoy your posts) I look forward to hearing from you.



LEPER, this is not a fault of SPAIN, but for the 'gullible' people you mention. If 'old retiree british people' buy a house in Spain with false promises, then that's their fault, they should make sure they get lawyers when buying a property, scum people are everywhere.


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## Leper

Lolito said:


> LEPER, this is not a fault of SPAIN, but for the 'gullible' people you mention. If 'old retiree british people' buy a house in Spain with false promises, then that's their fault, they should make sure they get lawyers when buying a property, scum people are everywhere.


Lolito, are we on the same page? You're promoting deceit. And for the lawyers in Spain ? 

Now it is the fault of the retirees!!!!!!!!!!


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## Pazcat

To be fair there is something wrong with buying a property in Spain that the system allows for these deceitful people to operate(in many cases just regular families and want-away retirees).
It is ridiculous to think that you need a lawyer to protect yourself from basic human rights, _it's completely necessary_ but if you don't have one you are liable to end up with an illegal house, no water or electricity or worse.
There is no accountability for past wrongs either buy the citizens or the authorities.
Even the mere fact that what is considered a legal property by towns halls is a property that is in breach but because of various amnesties, hefty fines and payments, etc... it can reach the grand status of being a tolerated property. Not legal as such but tolerated. 

It's a nightmare that many can't protect themselves from and from what I have seen most ignore so I don't know if the problem is Spain's, the peoples or what but it's a mess, it's not normal and it will cost investment in this country. I know it has on our part.

Sure a lawyer can protect you from things but at 600-1000 times a pop there is only so much one can afford to spend before just saying sod it and either turning a blind eye like everyone else or they walk.


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## gus-lopez

We own having bought 12 years ago. 
I wouldn't buy again in Spain as I am used to being able to sell, if required, in 40 minutes.
A house means nothing to me except that I expect to sell it for what I paid or more. I don't expect to lose money or pay taxes just to be able to buy without being able to recover them fully.
Spain is not one country but 17 autonomous provinces , each of which has a completely different property scenario. What is good in one won't necessarily be correct in another.
Lawyers have a different way of working here & will not necessarily identify, or even consider them problems, incorrect paperwork, measurements, etc. 
Retaining a Spanish lawyer should in no way be considered to be covering all , or any, legal eventualities. When there are problems they have no responsibilities to you whatsoever.
I have always considered renting to be a complete waste of money & wouldn't personally do it myself, preferring to buy a motorhome & move around/live in that. I would recommend to others though to rent & certainly not to buy until 110% sure that they want to live in that area & don't need the money ever again .


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## Lynn R

Leper said:


> Lynn, you're out of order. I would not put up a post to offend anybody. Nobody rubbished my post either. I am talking about people who dupe naive retirees into buying Spanish property as an investment.
> 
> Now if you can inform me there are no such tricksters operating in Spain I will gladly withdraw my post. I put up the post to put gullible people on their guard. Only a few short weeks ago while conducting business for a friend in a Real Estate Agent's Office I overheard a conversation with two Brit pensioners who were being spun every auctioneering term to sell them an overpriced property. Worse again in a recent 'Home in the Sun' (probably not the correct title) television programme re-run an auctioneer informed a couple that the new high speed railway line between Alicante Airport and Almería would be completed the following year. The programme went out on air several years ago and now facing into 2015 still the rail link is not working and will not be working for years. The auctioneers lies were broadcast on television to thousands of wannabe Spanish homeowners.
> 
> So please inform me that people have not been duped, lied to, spun yarns, convinced untruthfully and gladly I'll go into an early siesta and sleep with ease.
> 
> Now, Lynn (much as I enjoy your posts) I look forward to hearing from you.


You said, in your earlier post, 
"Perhaps I should have asked for each contributor to inform us of his/her vested interest, if any. Anybody involved in the Real Estate business would obviously rubbish my post."

My point was that as far as I can see nobody who had contributed to the thread HAD rubbished your post, nor had they in any way suggested that it is a good idea to buy property in Spain as an investment - indeed, the very first sentence of my own initial response was to say that I agreed that no-one should buy property in Spain as an investment. So, what was the need to suggest that people who responded had some kind of vested interest or had "rubbished" your post?

All anybody has said, as far as I can see, (and more than one person has agreed with you 100%) is that personally, if they want a property in Spain for their own use, then they prefer to buy one rather than rent it, in the long term. 

I have said repeatedly on a number of forums, over the years (even before the property crash), that I would have nothing to do with buying off-plan, dealing with high pressure sales tactics by estate agents or property developers, going on "inspection trips" organised by them, or buying recently built property on what used to be rural land, and where people have asked for advice about any of those things I've consistently advised against it.


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## xabiaxica

Lynn R said:


> You said, in your earlier post,
> "Perhaps I should have asked for each contributor to inform us of his/her vested interest, if any. Anybody involved in the Real Estate business would obviously rubbish my post."
> 
> My point was that as far as I can see nobody who had contributed to the thread HAD rubbished your post, nor had they in any way suggested that it is a good idea to buy property in Spain as an investment - indeed, the very first sentence of my own initial response was to say that I agreed that no-one should buy property in Spain as an investment. So, what was the need t suggest that people who responded had some kind of vested interest or had "rubbished" your post?


and I'm pretty sure that we don't have any active members who are property agents, anyway


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## mrypg9

Dunpleecin said:


> Ah yes, renting. Isn't that where you put 500€ into someone's pocket every month and at the end of a period of time there is nothing to show for it, whereas if you took out a mortgage for half that you're well on the way to owning the same place that you can sell? Even if you can't sell immediately you can rent it out to get your money back.
> 
> Never understood the mentality of long term renting. I know some people HAVE to owing to circumstances, but given the choice, assuming I was in an area I wanted to stay and wasn't just moving around all the time, I'd rather know that what I was spending on property was going to be mine in the long term.


Depends entirely on individual circumstances. There is every reason why we should rent and not one as to why we should buy.
My son and dil have a property in Spain. They have an interest in a property in France. The last thing they want is to have a property on their hands when we die, a property which might be unsaleable for years. In that time it could need expensive repairs or be invaded by squatters and wrecked.
We're quite happy to put a lot more than 500 euros a month in our landlord's pocket. In return we get a large house we couldn't afford to buy in a 'good' area, near my son's property, with all repairs done for us. We have an excellent relationship with our landlord.
We've been renting since we left the UK nine years ago. In that time I guess we've put an awful lot of money in landlords' pockets as we had a large house in Prague too. 
We were landlords in the UK and Canada taking other people's rent money so I guess it's swings and roundabouts. By selling our properties on leaving the UK we gained cash to invest which is more useful to us at our age than bricks or mortar.


There is no 'right' answer to the buy or rent question. It depends entirely on individual circumstances and preferences.


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## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> I've lived in far too many rented places over the years to ever want some landlord hovering over me again. We own our house outright and it's our home. I don't care how much it's worth now or in future or what happens to it after I'm dead. The security of owning your own home is priceless.


Many people living in the Axarquia area and other areas where homes they bought in good faith are under the threat of demolition might not agree with you.

Ditto those people in the UK whose homes have been compulsorily purchased to make way for high-speed railway lines or similar projects.

The ups and downs of the market can put people into negative equity which if coupled with job loss, accident, chronic illness, brings insecurity.

'Safe as houses' may have been true at one time and it's true for most people now but it isn't for everyone, sadly.


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## mrypg9

meetloaf said:


> Please note: The above statement about politicians doesn't apply to Mary -


XXXXXXX

mARY


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## Lynn R

mrypg9 said:


> There is no 'right' answer to the buy or rent question. It depends entirely on individual circumstances and preferences.


Yes, precisely.

As far as people being conned\defrauded\making what turn out to be bad investments goes, there are so many examples of how people can fall prey to that. Being sucked into Ponzi schemes, being sold an endowment\PEP mortgage which was supposed to pay off your loan and give you a nice lump sum as well, but resulted in very many people ending up with a shortfall to repay their mortgage let alone having anything left over, being a Name at Lloyds which bankrupted quite a number of people, more recently being sold dodgy QROPS schemes and now the sharks waiting in the wings for people being able to unlock cash from their pension pots next year. Not to mention the poor souls who send off their bank details in response to an email from somebody they don't know from Adam who is williing to cut them in on a million dollar fortune they've inherited in return for putting the money into their account, or in order to receive a prize in a lottery they never bought a ticket for in the first place. Or those who sincerely believe some beautiful young woman or handsome young man 40 years their junior from a far off country who they met online or on a package holiday has fallen desperately in love with them and proposed marriage for no other reason than that.

Some people, I'm sorry to say, seem scarcely fit to be allowed out on their own.

And then we see people posting on forums who say they've found a lovely house in Spain but somethng about it isn't quite right such as not having a Licence of First Occupation, or the escritura says it's a nave or some such, but the estate agent says not to worry about it as it's just the way things are done here, or it can all be sorted out after the sale. Everybody who responds tells them to walk away and save themselves a lot of grief, but a fair proportion seem determined to press on regardless. You just can't help people like that.


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## baldilocks

The problem is with so many people (of all ages and means) who come to Spain having left their brains at the airport and wearing rose-coloured spectacles. They see somewhere that looks nice and wonder "wouldn't it be nice to live here"? They look in a few agents windows see a property that looks (by comparison with say, UK) inexpensive and jump in feet first. They have almost no idea of what it is to live in that area all year, what the property is really like, (there are very few opportunities to get a survey of the type one would get in the UK) what complications there might be, etc. Many of them have no idea, even, about the climate at that location.

Two years down the road, once they have experience of the place, they realise it was a mistake and want to sell and can't or only at a huge loss.

It is not the fault of Spain, the estate agents, the Spanish government, the Spanish people or anyone else other than the people who jumped in without testing the waters. As the OP suggests it can be better to rent first but spending all that money in rent over several years just trying to find the right place to settle seemed to *us* to be money down the drain.

Our solution was to thoroughly research and know just what we wanted and where. We had a rough idea of how much we could afford to pay and stuck to it. We have been here 6 years now and are fully settled, we have absolutely no regrets, we don't wish we had bought elsewhere. We think we have integrated fairly well and consider that we have lots of friends (Spanish) all over the village where everybody helps each other.

When we first moved to UK 25 years ago, we had no option but to rent and the rent was reasonable at £330 per month, but after a year they wanted to increase the rent by £50 p.m. and we decided that at £380 p.m we might as well be paying a mortgage for a place of our own. 17 years later we sold the UK flat and were able to buy here in Spain with enough money left over to make the house just as we wanted.


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## jojo

baldilocks said:


> The problem is with so many people (of all ages and means) who come to Spain having left their brains at the airport and wearing rose-coloured spectacles. They see somewhere that looks nice and wonder "wouldn't it be nice to live here"? They look in a few agents windows see a property that looks (by comparison with say, UK) inexpensive and jump in feet first. They have almost no idea of what it is to live in that area all year, what the property is really like, (there are very few opportunities to get a survey of the type one would get in the UK) what complications there might be, etc. Many of them have no idea, even, about the climate at that location.
> 
> Two years down the road, once they have experience of the place, they realise it was a mistake and want to sell and can't or only at a huge loss.
> 
> It is not the fault of Spain, the estate agents, the Spanish government, the Spanish people or anyone else other than the people who jumped in without testing the waters. As the OP suggests it can be better to rent first but spending all that money in rent over several years just trying to find the right place to settle seemed to us to be money down the drain.
> 
> Our solution was to thoroughly research and know just what we wanted and where. We had a rough idea of how much we could afford to pay and stuck to it. We have been here 6 years now and are fully settled, we have absolutely no regrets, we don't wish we had bought elsewhere. We think we have integrated fairly well and consider that we have lots of friends (Spanish) all over the village where everybody helps each other.
> 
> When we first moved to UK 25 years ago, we had no option but to rent and the rent was reasonable at £330 per month, but after a year they wanted to increase the rent by £50 p.m. and we decided that at £380 p.m we might as well be paying a mortgage for a place of our own. 17 years later we sold the UK flat and were able to buy here in Spain with enough money left over to make the house just as we wanted.


Thats maybe how it used to be, but people aren't able to be as "carefree" these days

Jo xxx

Sent from my D5803 using Expat Forum


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## baldilocks

jojo said:


> Thats maybe how it used to be, but people aren't able to be as "carefree" these days
> 
> Jo xxx
> 
> Sent from my D5803 using Expat Forum


 Just don't understand what you are saying What is carefree about it? You do your research properly (that is taking care - not being carefree).


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## mrypg9

Lynn R said:


> Yes, precisely.
> 
> As far as people being conned\defrauded\making what turn out to be bad investments goes, there are so many examples of how people can fall prey to that. Being sucked into Ponzi schemes, being sold an endowment\PEP mortgage which was supposed to pay off your loan and give you a nice lump sum as well, but resulted in very many people ending up with a shortfall to repay their mortgage let alone having anything left over, being a Name at Lloyds which bankrupted quite a number of people, more recently being sold dodgy QROPS schemes and now the sharks waiting in the wings for people being able to unlock cash from their pension pots next year. Not to mention the poor souls who send off their bank details in response to an email from somebody they don't know from Adam who is williing to cut them in on a million dollar fortune they've inherited in return for putting the money into their account, or in order to receive a prize in a lottery they never bought a ticket for in the first place. Or those who sincerely believe some beautiful young woman or handsome young man 40 years their junior from a far off country who they met online or on a package holiday has fallen desperately in love with them and proposed marriage for no other reason than that.
> 
> Some people, I'm sorry to say, seem scarcely fit to be allowed out on their own.
> 
> And then we see people posting on forums who say they've found a lovely house in Spain but somethng about it isn't quite right such as not having a Licence of First Occupation, or the escritura says it's a nave or some such, but the estate agent says not to worry about it as it's just the way things are done here, or it can all be sorted out after the sale. Everybody who responds tells them to walk away and save themselves a lot of grief, but a fair proportion seem determined to press on regardless. You just can't help people like that.


Couldn't agree more. A few people are unlucky but most are the architects of their own misfortunes. I was ripped off during our first month in Prague but never after that. Ditto in Spain. And it was mea culpa, being too ignorant and trusting.

For almost forty years of my life I lived in my own property. It took a while to get used to renting but we have had three very good landlords. We had one rapacious couple when we first moved out of my son's house but we left that place after four months, first having recouped our deposit of almost 2000 euros by not paying rent.
Moving into that place was my fault too, Sandra wasn't keen but I wanted to move from my son's house as soon as we could - although there was no pressure on us to do so. In nearly everything, Sandra's judgment is better than mine.

When we lived in Prague we were constantly being told we should buy a place and as in Spain we had the means, in cash, to do so. But we found out after three years Prague was not really for us. If we'd bought we'd most likely be stuck there. As it is, like you we'll move on when we're (more) decrepit. A friend has a house in Estepona town we can move into. No problems with finding a buyer...just a call to the removal company.

Not everyone's circumstances are the same. Some people's children need help, others don't. My son certainly doesn't, it's more likely he'll be paying for our (Spanish) care home, if such be needed. So it's daft to try to lay down a rule.


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## Isobella

Everyone is different and doing research is no guarantee that you will like a house. you never know anywhere until you have lived there a while. Places change, people change. Decades ago we bought a house which, at the time, we loved. Moved onwards and upwards a Few times since then. Our good friends next door moved in the same week as we did, they area still there, their first and probably their last house.


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## Leper

If Real Estate agents in Spain are not involved (perhaps I should have said looking in?) on fora such as this they are falling down on their job somewhat. Therefore, I would have no problem with their contributions, provided they are truthful. I know, if I were an estate agent I would be participating in search of sales and anything which would contribute to sales.

Baldilocks got it right when he mentioned that some people tended to leave their brains at the airport.


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## Leper

Spain is now in deep financial trouble. Things are improving, but very slowly. There is too much unsold properties which continue to be for sale to suggest any great increase in near future prices. The silliness that abounded up to seven years ago has abated. Nothing like austerity to focus the mind!

But, let's not forget the bottom line - Many have been ruined by the property price downturn in Spain. Like some pointed out here they were the masters of their own misfortune in many instances. Most of us are human not financial experts. The carrot was dangled in front of many and some grasped.

Do not let that happen to you. Rent, Rent, Rent and when you are 100% sure that buying is the right thing to do, then do it. And if you are in your mid sixties is buying a good option?


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## mrypg9

Leper said:


> Spain is now in deep financial trouble. Things are improving, but very slowly. There is too much unsold properties which continue to be for sale to suggest any great increase in near future prices. The silliness that abounded up to seven years ago has abated. Nothing like austerity to focus the mind!
> 
> But, let's not forget the bottom line - Many have been ruined by the property price downturn in Spain. Like some pointed out here they were the masters of their own misfortune in many instances. Most of us are human not financial experts. The carrot was dangled in front of many and some grasped.
> 
> Do not let that happen to you. Rent, Rent, Rent and when you are 100% sure that buying is the right thing to do, then do it. And if you are in your mid sixties is buying a good option?


In reply to your last question: for us, no, which is why we didn't.
But our circumstances are unlike those of most others in that age group.
I can only repeat that advice must be tailored very precisely to individual circumstances.


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## xabiaxica

Leper said:


> *If Real Estate agents in Spain are not involved (perhaps I should have said looking in?) on fora such as this they are falling down on their job somewhat*. Therefore, I would have no problem with their contributions, provided they are truthful. I know, if I were an estate agent I would be participating in search of sales and anything which would contribute to sales.
> 
> Baldilocks got it right when he mentioned that some people tended to leave their brains at the airport.


we've had property agents on this forum - but as soon as they realise that we won't allow them to tout for business they stop coming

they'd be welcome of course, to contribute to discussions - but sadly those who have joined don't seem able to do that without constantly plugging their companies - & that's not what this forum is all about


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## Pazcat

I recall one agent who came and posted that to get around the no pool rule in their area they recommend to declare it as a well and plant trees around it so it's hard to tell from a satellite picture a pool is there.

I mean if you are an agent and go online saying you encourage law breaking that has to be a good advertisement for your business.
Sign me up!


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## Maureen47

I heard last week about a friend visiting family in Spain a few weeks ago and they were informed of an apartment available near their family, this was their first visit to the area and they ended up buying the apartment at way over the odds in my opinion, this for me fulfils Baldidocks phrase , leaving brains at the airport, it may work for them but for me more homework should have been done and they should have came home, thought about it then made a decision. For us the correct option was to buy following a couple of years of investigating and planning and also our personal and financial circumstances. There is no correct answer on rent or buy in my opinion but the advice of not making any rash decisions on houses that may be attractive because of the price is sound advice.


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## mrypg9

Just back from walking Azor and as I walk him I usually get to thinking on all sorts of things...Today I was thinking about house purchase.

I think we Brits are obsessed by what we like to call 'home ownership'. Of course you don't really own your home, unless you have purchased it outright. The mortgage company/bank whoever you borrowed from g holds the deeds until you have paid the last instalment of your loan, usually thirty years after you paid the first one. So you are in reality buying on very extended hire purchase.
Then there's the issue of interest on your loan. Depending on the rate, you could end up paying many many times more than the original purchase price of your property. So you are putting cash into the pockets of money-lenders whilst renters put cash into the hands of landlords.
But, some say, eventually you will own your property. You can not only live in it, you can use it as security and, hopefully, its value as an asset will have increased as inflation will have eroded the cost of your mortgage payments. This of course depends on the state of the economy and house prices when your loan ends.
But there are disadvantages. Owning your home entails many costs: maintenance and insurances being the chief financial ones. It also brings immobility. If for whatever reason you need to find a new job, it's not so easy to move. Accident and ill-health may also make repayment of your mortgage difficult or even impossible. You may get neighbours from hell. The Council may decide to slap a Compulsory Purchase Order on your property for some reason or other. The house my mother had lived in for over sixty years was CPO'd by the Council to make way for a carpark. Because it had been rented (since 1911!) the Council was obliged to rehome her in a very nice maisonette with all mod cons in a pleasant area. The owner of the house received very little compensation.
Some economists think that this obsession with house buying is actually bad for the economy and individuals . For most people, their house/home is their only asset, a savings for retirement. But this actually ties up capital which could have been invested elsewhere and provided a more profitable return, provided it was invested wisely.
This British 'disease' is spreading although in most European countries, renting is the norm. But consider the damage the rush to be property owners has done to the economy and people of Spain. Was it worth it?
Of course the problem in the UK is the lack of affordable rental properties. The fact that so many people find it hard to get on the first rung of the property ladder has pushed up rental prices. No Government seems inclined to encourage Councils to build properties the 'hardworking people' our Tory toff led Government bangs on about can afford.
Part of the issue I think is good old-fashioned British snobbery. Thatcher's 'Right to Buy' policy brought that out of the woodwork. Makers and sellers of posh front doors and coaching lamps made a fortune as property owners sought to distinguish themselves from the renters next door.

Like everyone I knew way back then, I bought my house as soon as I had cash to buy. I bought a few more and rented them. I never thought of doing anything else. But if I were starting over in today's economic climate, I really wonder if I would have been so quick to become a property owner......After all, we are all obliged to be so much more mobile than forty years ago and bricks and mortar are very static....


----------



## Alcalaina

Home ownership in Spain is actually higher than in the UK (79% compared to 66%). In fact the UK is fairly low in the list.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_ownership_rate

Obviously there are some stages of one's life where it is better to have the flexibility of renting. But once you have settled in a place, the benefits of ownership far outweigh the risks. The chances of getting a compulsory purchase order are probably lower than being struck by lightning - and you do get compensation. Whereas a landlord who wants to put the rent up, or sell the property with vacant possession, or who is negligent with his maintenance responsibilities, can make your life hell. Often you can't have pets or decorate it how you would like. Your life isn't your own. 

That's what I meant when I was talking about security - freedom from the day-to-day stress of living in someone else's house.


----------



## jojo

The question is not about whether to buy or to rent if you want to live in Spain, its whether its a good financial investment.

Jo xxx


----------



## baldilocks

jojo said:


> The question is not about whether to buy or to rent if you want to live in Spain, its whether its a good financial investment.
> 
> Jo xxx


Most people that I know of, don't buy the house they are to live in as a financial investment but for somewhere to live and that they can call their own, secure in the knowledge that as long as they have bought outright or keep up their mortgage payments, they have security of tenure. Should the property gain in value then so much better but if it loses a little of its value, that only becomes a problem if one needs/chooses to sell. However since most normal people don't keep jumping from one house to another and prefer to settle, that is less of a problem. If one knows any relocation is only temporary, then it probably makes sense to rent, but even then, not everyone will agree. It is, as usual, 'horse for courses.'


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## Roy C

We want to buy a house to live in, so whether it goes up or down in value is irrelevant, that's why for us doing our homework and finding the right place is very important. We could travel around Spain and try a lot of areas and still pick the wrong area. We have visited a few areas Nerja to Estepona and the preference is East of Malaga as in Velez area or Estepona itself. So now it is research, research and more research and we could still get it wrong but as I say if we do get the right place it won't be for an investment, it will be to live in.


----------



## Leper

mrypg9 said:


> Just back from walking Azor and as I walk him I usually get to thinking on all sorts of things...Today I was thinking about house purchase.
> 
> I think we Brits are obsessed by what we like to call 'home ownership'. Of course you don't really own your home, unless you have purchased it outright. The mortgage company/bank whoever you borrowed from g holds the deeds until you have paid the last instalment of your loan, usually thirty years after you paid the first one. So you are in reality buying on very extended hire purchase.
> Then there's the issue of interest on your loan. Depending on the rate, you could end up paying many many times more than the original purchase price of your property. So you are putting cash into the pockets of money-lenders whilst renters put cash into the hands of landlords.
> But, some say, eventually you will own your property. You can not only live in it, you can use it as security and, hopefully, its value as an asset will have increased as inflation will have eroded the cost of your mortgage payments. This of course depends on the state of the economy and house prices when your loan ends.
> But there are disadvantages. Owning your home entails many costs: maintenance and insurances being the chief financial ones. It also brings immobility. If for whatever reason you need to find a new job, it's not so easy to move. Accident and ill-health may also make repayment of your mortgage difficult or even impossible. You may get neighbours from hell. The Council may decide to slap a Compulsory Purchase Order on your property for some reason or other. The house my mother had lived in for over sixty years was CPO'd by the Council to make way for a carpark. Because it had been rented (since 1911!) the Council was obliged to rehome her in a very nice maisonette with all mod cons in a pleasant area. The owner of the house received very little compensation.
> Some economists think that this obsession with house buying is actually bad for the economy and individuals . For most people, their house/home is their only asset, a savings for retirement. But this actually ties up capital which could have been invested elsewhere and provided a more profitable return, provided it was invested wisely.
> This British 'disease' is spreading although in most European countries, renting is the norm. But consider the damage the rush to be property owners has done to the economy and people of Spain. Was it worth it?
> Of course the problem in the UK is the lack of affordable rental properties. The fact that so many people find it hard to get on the first rung of the property ladder has pushed up rental prices. No Government seems inclined to encourage Councils to build properties the 'hardworking people' our Tory toff led Government bangs on about can afford.
> Part of the issue I think is good old-fashioned British snobbery. Thatcher's 'Right to Buy' policy brought that out of the woodwork. Makers and sellers of posh front doors and coaching lamps made a fortune as property owners sought to distinguish themselves from the renters next door.
> 
> Like everyone I knew way back then, I bought my house as soon as I had cash to buy. I bought a few more and rented them. I never thought of doing anything else. But if I were starting over in today's economic climate, I really wonder if I would have been so quick to become a property owner......After all, we are all obliged to be so much more mobile than forty years ago and bricks and mortar are very static....


While there are some good posts on the thread I started this one by Mrypg9 is the one that would get my award for post of the week. I think my name has been erased from a few Christmas mailing lists also, but I jest, of course. 

But, the over-riding feeling for me here is that people care about other people and are prepared to print their gut feelings and advice without sauce, salt or sour cream. I must say that I have learnt a lot on this thread and if nothing else is taken from anybody looking in please think, experience, read, walk, share, weigh whatever you are about to do in the line of buying or renting property in Spain.

Many thanks All.


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## Isobella

I would always want to own a house. UK preferably but anywhere would do I like the feeling of security. Brother has lived in Singapore for a decade but they still own and successfully rent a house in the UK. It has worked very well. We also have worked and lived in various places but always had somewhere where could call "home"


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## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> Home ownership in Spain is actually higher than in the UK (79% compared to 66%). In fact the UK is fairly low in the list.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_ownership_rate
> 
> Obviously there are some stages of one's life where it is better to have the flexibility of renting. But once you have settled in a place, the benefits of ownership far outweigh the risks. The chances of getting a compulsory purchase order are probably lower than being struck by lightning - and you do get compensation. Whereas a landlord who wants to put the rent up, or sell the property with vacant possession, or who is negligent with his maintenance responsibilities, can make your life hell. Often you can't have pets or decorate it how you would like. Your life isn't your own.
> 
> That's what I meant when I was talking about security - freedom from the day-to-day stress of living in someone else's house.


I think that buying or renting should be a real choice which it isn't in the UK as there is a shortage of affordable rental properties. If renting were taken out of the hands of private landlords and organised on a co- operative basis or administered as social housing then tenants would have security and realistically affordable rents. So too many people see buying as theirsole option.
Residential property really shouldn't be seen as an ' investment'...for most people it's theirhome. But the fact is that circumstances make people see it that way. Posts on this Forum refer to how Spanish properties haveincreased in value and so on.
Perhaps houses like banks should all be under some form of public control, if not ownership. After all, your home is surely the ultimate utility. It is scandalous that in rich countries anyone should be without a roof over their head.
If all the money given to banks via mortgage repayments were invested more productively the effect on the economy would be substantial.
But it ain't going to happen...


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## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> Perhaps houses like banks should all be under some form of public control, if not ownership. After all, your home is surely the ultimate utility. It is scandalous that in rich countries anyone should be without a roof over their head.
> If all the money given to banks via mortgage repayments were invested more productively the effect on the economy would be substantial.
> But it ain't going to happen...


Can't argue with that! 

When I first got married in 1972 we bought a house with a mortgage from the local authority. There was real choice then between private and public sector renting, or buying with a mortgage. This is no longer the case in the UK because nowadays housing (and housing finance) is controlled by the market - but is it really irreversible? If you took a snapshot of working-class access to housing in 1850, 1900, 1950 and 2000 who's to say what the picture will look like in 2050? 

Spain is different because there is a surplus of housing rather than a shortage. It shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to ensure everyone has a roof over their head.


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## Megsmum

Oh Dear, l this old chestnut 

If you want to rent RENT, its your money to do with what you want.

If you want to buy, then buy, research and understand the Spanish market.

I appreciate every one has a reason to rent or to buy, 

I did not want to rent, neither did I buy this house as an investment. Yes in a while I might want to move, I might need to sell, I might die. If I had thought about might's, ifs and buts I would still be in the UK working 12 hour shifts 5 days a week. 

Renting is a good option for some, buying is the way for others. I would also like to make a comment on the old " keep your house in the UK". For some, like us, we needed the capital from the house to raise money to live on and buy, we are not all in the financial position of owning more than one house and all the associated costs. 

My advice to anyone considering either option, and from what I have read, both have their downside, research carefully, do things right, and more importantly do what you think is right for you and yours..........


----------



## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> Can't argue with that!
> 
> When I first got married in 1972 we bought a house with a mortgage from the local authority. There was real choice then between private and public sector renting, or buying with a mortgage. This is no longer the case in the UK because nowadays housing (and housing finance) is controlled by the market - but is it really irreversible? If you took a snapshot of working-class access to housing in 1850, 1900, 1950 and 2000 who's to say what the picture will look like in 2050?
> 
> Spain is different because there is a surplus of housing rather than a shortage. It shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to ensure everyone has a roof over their head.


I don't believe there is an 'afterlife' which annoys me as I would like to know what happens in the future! Yes, there are many things we should be ashamed of as we have stretched technology to the point where we can watch tv on our phones (if one wants to) yet millions lack basics like loos and drinking water.
Watching the disgusting 'Black Friday' scenes of people fighting over tvs at two o'clock in the morning almost made me agree with what you and others posted about consumerism some time ago. 
I have a less optimistic view of humanity than you, maybe because I spent much of my working life with adolescents on a run-down estate. All human life was truly there.... Plus I no longer have any real religious or political faith. I can't see a very hopeful future for the human race.
There are many vacant properties not far from us, mainly bank repos. Squatters have moved into them, to the dismay of some of our neighbours. We find it very hard, in fact impossible, to get worked up about people who need a home finding an empty home and moving into it.


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## Lynn R

cambio said:


> I did not want to rent, neither did I buy this house as an investment. Yes in a while I might want to move, I might need to sell, I might die. If I had thought about might's, ifs and buts I would still be in the UK working 12 hour shifts 5 days a week.
> 
> Renting is a good option for some, buying is the way for others. I would also like to make a comment on the old " keep your house in the UK". For some, like us, we needed the capital from the house to raise money to live on and buy, we are not all in the financial position of owning more than one house and all the associated costs.
> 
> My advice to anyone considering either option, and from what I have read, both have their downside, research carefully, do things right, and more importantly do what you think is right for you and yours..........


I think your situation must have been very similar to mine. It wasn't financially viable for me to keep my UK house as it wouldn't have generated enough in rental income for us to have paid rent in Spain especially after tax and other expenses had been deducted. Nor did we come from a part of the country which had a buoyant housing market (indeed according to Land Registry sale prices, they have been absolutely flat since we left) so we haven't missed out on any capital growth either.

I much preferred to sell it and use the money to fund 10 extra years of retirement, having a mortgage-free house here in Spain to live in, with lower outgoings eg Council Tax. The Spanish house is bigger than the one we had in the UK, for less cost.

I would not be surprised if, now that the economic situation in Spain seems to have stabilised (although the recovery has a long, long way to go especially regarding employment) if more people in their 50's who may have paid off the mortgage on their UK house don't realise that by selling up and buying a less expensive one in Spain, whilst prices here are so low (and likely to remain so for years to come, I'd say) they could do the same.


----------



## Megsmum

Lynn R said:


> I think your situation must have been very similar to mine. It wasn't financially viable for me to keep my UK house as it wouldn't have generated enough in rental income for us to have paid rent in Spain especially after tax and other expenses had been deducted. Nor did we come from a part of the country which had a buoyant housing market (indeed according to Land Registry sale prices, they have been absolutely flat since we left) so we haven't missed out on any capital growth either.
> 
> *I much preferred to sell it and use the money to fund 10 extra years of retirement, having a mortgage-free house here in Spain to live in, with lower outgoings eg Council Tax. The Spanish house is bigger than the one we had in the UK, for less cos*t.
> 
> I would not be surprised if, now that the economic situation in Spain seems to have stabilised (although the recovery has a long, long way to go especially regarding employment) if more people in their 50's who may have paid off the mortgage on their UK house don't realise that by selling up and buying a less expensive one in Spain, whilst prices here are so low (and likely to remain so for years to come, I'd say) they could do the same.


Yep same situation, must be nice to have the money to do both,ie keep two houses, there is no way we could have the finca and land in the uk that we have here, life is for living, investments are important, but i once had a boss, who did nothing with his money except put it in invstments and funds for later, later never came, he died ages 62,


----------



## Lynn R

cambio said:


> Yep same situation, must be nice to have the money to do both,ie keep two houses, there is no way we could have the finca and land in the uk that we have here, life is for living, investments are important, but i once had a boss, who did nothing with his money except put it in invstments and funds for later, later never came, he died ages 62,


I've almost lost count of how many people I knew who that happened to, it's so sad. My determination to get out early started when my mother died aged 62. Several former work colleagues died either immediately before or immediately after retirement, so all their careful saving and retirement planning was for nothing. My OH's oldest friend bought a house here for his eventual retirement but never made it as he developed mesothelioma and died aged 61 - we'd been urging him to make the move but he was scared of running out of money (never likely to happen as he was a single man who didn't have an extravagant lifestyle and had ample savings). He ran out of time instead.


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## mrypg9

Lynn R said:


> I've almost lost count of how many people I knew who that happened to, it's so sad. My determination to get out early started when my mother died aged 62. Several former work colleagues died either immediately before or immediately after retirement, so all their careful saving and retirement planning was for nothing. My OH's oldest friend bought a house here for his eventual retirement but never made it as he developed mesothelioma and died aged 61 - we'd been urging him to make the move but he was scared of running out of money (never likely to happen as he was a single man who didn't have an extravagant lifestyle and had ample savings). He ran out of time instead.


I knew someone, a Head of Department, who on his very last day at work locked his car in the school car park, had a heart attack and died.
I think that as you become older you become more aware of your mortality and how precious life and time are. When I was younger I thought I was immortal but when I was told I had a heart problem it was a real wake-up call.
Gather ye rosebuds, carpe diem and all that...


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## Roy C

I've known a few people (all be it cyber space) who have retired early and seem to be living a long happy retirement in the sun. Just thought I would change the tempo a bit


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## Isobella

I hear the sound of violins


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## baldilocks

Isobella said:


> I hear the sound of violins


Nah. It's just another dodgy estate agent and lawyer on the fiddle!


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## maxd

I was reading a retirement forum, even though I am 44, to see if people are happy or not. A lot of people who did not take earlier retirement seemed to regret it. Those who left at about 55 seemed to be happier than those that left it until 62-65. No one is going to say on their deathbed, jeez I wish I spent some more time in the office.

My neighbour in Tenerife says he was on his hands and knees working until he was 62 despite owning several properties. A health scare made him see what is important.

I have taken note and I intend retiring in my 50's or semi retiring. The house we bought on the Island is part of that plan.

Prices are 50% of what they were in 2007. If you trade stocks then you know that you should buy low and sell high and you cannot time the market. 

So the best you can do is buy when it feels low and have a long enough time horizon if you intend selling. In 2025 I can guarantee if Leper and I are still alive I will be laughing at my capital gain versus his 10 year rent bill


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## Relyat

I can only speak for myself.

The move to Spain had been planned for over time leading to us knowing the area to which we wanted to move. However, due to an unexpected offer of "redundancy", we chose to move several years earlier than we had anticipated.

We could have rented, but as we know the area, we were happy to buy. Each month's rental would have meant less to buy our home (I repeat - home!). We could conceivably have missed out on a house we wanted due to not having enough money for it, having spent it on rent instead.

Given our knowledge of where we wanted to be (and more importantly, where we did not want to be), it suited OUR circumstances to buy. As for anyone else, as has been said, they have to do their research into all aspects of a move.

I have no regrets having bought a house here and for us there was no "Case against buying property in Spain", but it obviously wouldn't suit everyone.


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## Leper

maxd said:


> . . . . . . . .
> 
> Prices are 50% of what they were in 2007. If you trade stocks then you know that you should buy low and sell high and you cannot time the market.
> 
> So the best you can do is buy when it feels low and have a long enough time horizon if you intend selling. In 2025 I can guarantee if Leper and I are still alive I will be laughing at my capital gain versus his 10 year rent bill


No Max, you cannot take anything for granted in the Spanish investment property market. 

If you have bought, you're already sucked in and at best (even in 10 years time) you will have paid so many Spanish taxes, community fees, electricity bills, refuse liabilities etc and when you sell you will pay high tax on your paper "gain." Take out Real Estate charges and legal fees and you will be looking at a loss. That of course is if you sell then. Your children probably will make a few bob after you've gone (sorry to be so morbid!).

We all can argue Buying-V-Renting, but the punter must weigh all the possibilities and then make a decision that suits.


----------



## mrypg9

If you can, retire as early as you can. We did. Never been so happy in my life.


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## jimenato

The Term horses for courses has been used in this thread and it is apt.

We are owners at heart and own two properties in the UK but in 15 years in Spain we always rented. 

I know of several people who would sell if they could but are living in houses they have no hope of selling for the foreseeable future. There are others who although (like us) have every intention of living out their lives in the country they love know that if circumstances change they are similarly stuck and it kmakes them uneasy.

It is normal to justify what you have chosen to do, making the choice right is as important as making the right choice. 

But it's a bit easier to undo a bad renting choice.


----------



## Chopera

maxd said:


> ...
> Prices are 50% of what they were in 2007. If you trade stocks then you know that you should buy low and sell high and you cannot time the market.
> ...


Apparently research has found that you are more likely to lose money if you buy a stock that has recently fallen then if you buy a stock that has recently risen. Buying low and selling high is pretty meaningless because you only know whether you have done so (or not) after the event. For this reason many traders say you should "leave 10% to the market" which basically means don't try to pick the exact bottom of the market, because you won't unless you fluke it, but instead wait for signs that the market has started to rise again. That's for stocks and "pure investments". For property I'd say that if you think you're within 10% of the bottom of the market and you want to buy, then buy, regardless of whether the market has started to rise again. But that's just my opinion.


----------



## baldilocks

Chopera said:


> Apparently research has found that you are more likely to lose money if you buy a stock that has recently fallen then if you buy a stock that has recently risen. Buying low and selling high is pretty meaningless because you only know whether you have done so (or not) after the event. For this reason many traders say you should "leave 10% to the market" which basically means don't try to pick the exact bottom of the market, because you won't unless you fluke it, but instead wait for signs that the market has started to rise again. That's for stocks and "pure investments". For property I'd say that if you think you're within 10% of the bottom of the market and you want to buy, then buy, regardless of whether the market has started to rise again. But that's just my opinion.


I would go further and say, if you have done your research properly and know without a doubt where you want to buy and what you want to buy and are doing so not because you want to make a profit but just to find a place you can call home, then do it. Then, stop looking at estate agents billboards trying to see if you could have got something just a tad cheaper - it is a sure-fire way to make yourself unhappy. Buy the place you want and enjoy it. Forget worrying about whether you could have got a better deal or whether, like others, you might have been better off renting and putting money into the pocket of a landlord/lady. Why do people get themselves all stressed out about things. If you have retired, put stress behind you- that is what retirement is all about, especially retirement to Spain.


----------



## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> I would go further and say, if you have done your research properly and know without a doubt where you want to buy and what you want to buy and are doing so not because you want to make a profit but just to find a place you can call home, then do it. Then, stop looking at estate agents billboards trying to see if you could have got something just a tad cheaper - it is a sure-fire way to make yourself unhappy. Buy the place you want and enjoy it. Forget worrying about whether you could have got a better deal or whether, like others, you might have been better off renting and putting money into the pocket of a landlord/lady. Why do people get themselves all stressed out about things. If you have retired, put stress behind you- that is what retirement is all about, especially retirement to Spain.


Totally agree. But that's why in our case renting was the preferred option. We'd had enough of owning. 
And I'd rather put money in the pockets of our nice kind landlord than into the bloated coffers of a bank or similar institution.
But that's just my opinion.


----------



## Megsmum

> No Max, you cannot take anything for granted in the Spanish investment property market.




_*THE CASE AGAINST INVESTING IN PROPERTY IN SPAIN,*_ then the discussion about returns on initial capital, tax implication re having property in the UK and what to and what not to declare on your Spanish tax returns here. What the risk v rewards are etc.

For, what I truly believe, is the majority on here, we Buy a house because we like the house, the area etc etc, those who rent do so for the exact same reason, its their home. Investing in property is not the same as buying a home never has been, never should be and never will be.


----------



## mrypg9

cambio said:


> _*THE CASE AGAINST INVESTING IN PROPERTY IN SPAIN,*_ then the discussion about returns on initial capital, tax implication re having property in the UK and what to and what not to declare on your Spanish tax returns here. What the risk v rewards are etc.
> 
> For, what I truly believe, is the majority on here, we Buy a house because we like the house, the area etc etc, those who rent do so for the exact same reason, its their home. Investing in property is not the same as buying a home never has been, never should be and never will be.


Our rented house is just as much our home as our bought properties were, with the exception that we don't have to do the major repairs this big old house will need within the next five to ten years, by which time we'll have moved on.
We see to all the minor repairs which imo is fair enough as we've cut the rent by more than half since we moved in almost six years ago. This summer we decided to paint a couple of rooms. 'Paint in what ever colour you like', said Adelbert our landlord. We have put up aerials and satellite dishes, hung pictures, removed a few bits of furniture he had in the house to the furthest reaches of the cellar...and I've had an e-mail from him today telling me he and his wife are coming to spend Christmas in another property he own nearby and 'Is there anything I'd like him to bring from Austria?'
OK, we're lucky - so is he. Also lucky that we didn't listen to the people who urged us to buy a house in Prague. Six years ago last Sunday we left the house we rented there and began our drive to Spain, arriving six years ago yesterday. How lucky we were to be able to send off our furniture and start our journey instead of stuck waiting for someone to buy a house we didn't want to live in anymore.

For years I had wanted to live in Prague but the actual experience was so different from visiting. Of course it could have turned out differently and we might have been happy to stay forever. But even then we wouldn't have bought. Just my opinion but I think to buy in Spain without having experienced at least a year or eighteen months in the place you think you'd like to settle could prove to be a mistake and one difficult to put right.


----------



## maxd

mrypg9 said:


> Our rented house is just as much our home as our bought properties were, with the exception that we don't have to do the major repairs this big old house will need within the next five to ten years, by which time we'll have moved on.
> We see to all the minor repairs which imo is fair enough as we've cut the rent by more than half since we moved in almost six years ago. This summer we decided to paint a couple of rooms. 'Paint in what ever colour you like', said Adelbert our landlord. We have put up aerials and satellite dishes, hung pictures, removed a few bits of furniture he had in the house to the furthest reaches of the cellar...and I've had an e-mail from him today telling me he and his wife are coming to spend Christmas in another property he own nearby and 'Is there anything I'd like him to bring from Austria?'
> OK, we're lucky - so is he. Also lucky that we didn't listen to the people who urged us to buy a house in Prague. Six years ago last Sunday we left the house we rented there and began our drive to Spain, arriving six years ago yesterday. How lucky we were to be able to send off our furniture and start our journey instead of stuck waiting for someone to buy a house we didn't want to live in anymore.
> 
> For years I had wanted to live in Prague but the actual experience was so different from visiting. Of course it could have turned out differently and we might have been happy to stay forever. But even then we wouldn't have bought. Just my opinion but I think to buy in Spain without having experienced at least a year or eighteen months in the place you think you'd like to settle could prove to be a mistake and one difficult to put right.



We own houses in Prague and Spain and are happy with both  Prague is home, Spain is our hideout. Just goes to show we are all different. 

We have a young family so your instincts kick in and you end up buying, Later on in life I would probably only keep one though.


----------



## mrypg9

maxd said:


> We own houses in Prague and Spain and are happy with both  Prague is home, Spain is our hideout. Just goes to show we are all different.
> 
> We have a young family so your instincts kick in and you end up buying, Later on in life I would probably only keep one though.


When I was young and had loads of energy I bought up old properties to renovate, rent for a while and later sell. Now I pay someone else to do even minor painting jobs as I'm past it!

It's that old 'horses for courses', max. After years of wanting to make a permanent move to Prague actually living there full-time was a major disappointment. But to this day my Czech friend of forty years plus can't understand why we left...I miss Prague at times, it's a beautiful city although for me it was more attractive before 1989. It had a wonderful mysterious melancholic ambiance quite different from other European capitals.
But then I can't expect the Czech people to have gone on suffering under Communism just to suit my aesthetic tastes.....

One interesting note...although it was very cold indeed in Prague I was never cold, either indoors or outdoors. I had warm outdoor clothes, sturdy boots and our house was extremely well insulated, like most Czech houses. But here in Spain it's impossible to heat our house. We heat whichever room we happen to be in. The heating arrangements are simply inadequate for such a large house. Insulation is non-existent. Great in summer, not so good in winter.

So ironically, we are more physically aware of the cold here in southern Spain where it never freezes than in minus fifteen C Prague.


----------



## Expatliving

Leper said:


> Looking through several Fora regarding purchase of investment property in Spain it is obvious that vested interests are talking up the future. Nothing could be further from the truth.
> 
> Property is much cheaper than six years ago - True.
> There has never been a better time to buy - False.
> 
> Property prices are increasing in Europe (e.g. increased 40% in Ireland) so the same will happen in Spain? - Not comparing like with like. Spain is oversubscribed with holiday homes while there is an acute shortage of houses in Ireland. There is no shortage of property in Spain. In fact the (Spanish) investment property market is overcome with people trying to unload at huge loss.
> 
> There may be occasional increases in prices in Spain depending on the availability of some cash purchasers. These are seasonal only and there will not be any great upturn for quite some years into the future.
> 
> I cringe when I hear of retired people purchasing these days. You cannot compare the property market in the UK and Spain. It is like comparing Miss Universe with Little Miss Sunshine.
> 
> If you want to live the dream I suggest you do not sell your home in the UK. Come to Spain but rent, rent, rent and do not purchase. Then you will have all the advantages with least outlay. Do not be duped by vested interests or false dreams.


Just got on this thread, so if I may I'll give you my viewpoint:

I currently live in SE London, not far from the O2 Arena/Dome. My family are planning a move (and purchase) to Eastern Spain in the summer of 2015.

Many years ago, when I first got together with my better half, she lived in the borough of Kensington & Chelsea, whilst I was very much a Greenwich borough lad. We fretted over where would be best to live and based on affordability and what £££ would buy in each area, we ended up with more space for the same money in Greenwich borough. Now, obviously, a small flat in a distant corner of Kensington (Ladbroke Grove area) would have been nice and central, but long term plans for us were potentially family ... and extra bedrooms!

Some 27 years later, whilst my wife's friends in West London have experienced massive property rises, they have also experienced violent crime, that being several muggings etc, overcrowded services and the nearest open space without a huge tower block as a backdrop, many, many miles away.

The point is, it's not all about profit, quality of life is far more important. I own my property, it's a standard semi-detached but the value has risen greatly over the years. I will purchase in Spain, I'll rent for a while and commit my family's future to Spain.

I hesitate to say this, but I know of several persons, with holiday homes/semi permanent Spanish homes, who enjoy the sun and relaxation of the Med' but for health and financial security won't commit. That is their choice, but trying to achieve the best of both worlds MAY come to an abrupt end towards the end of 2017, if you're a UK resident?

My family are getting in whilst the law and right to settle are pretty much straight forward. Others who don't want to commit (in the UK) will gradually see their European right of movement erode over the coming years.

At this point in time, an 'in/out' EU election in the UK would be a given. Times have changed and so has the attitudes of the majority of the voters in the UK. Soft touch? Not for much longer ...


----------



## Leper

Expatliving said:


> Just got on this thread, so if I may I'll give you my viewpoint:
> 
> I currently live in SE London, not far from the O2 Arena/Dome. My family are planning a move (and purchase) to Eastern Spain in the summer of 2015.
> 
> Many years ago, when I first got together with my better half, she lived in the borough of Kensington & Chelsea, whilst I was very much a Greenwich borough lad. We fretted over where would be best to live and based on affordability and what £££ would buy in each area, we ended up with more space for the same money in Greenwich borough. Now, obviously, a small flat in a distant corner of Kensington (Ladbroke Grove area) would have been nice and central, but long term plans for us were potentially family ... and extra bedrooms!
> 
> Some 27 years later, whilst my wife's friends in West London have experienced massive property rises, they have also experienced violent crime, that being several muggings etc, overcrowded services and the nearest open space without a huge tower block as a backdrop, many, many miles away.
> 
> The point is, it's not all about profit, quality of life is far more important. I own my property, it's a standard semi-detached but the value has risen greatly over the years. I will purchase in Spain, I'll rent for a while and commit my family's future to Spain.
> 
> I hesitate to say this, but I know of several persons, with holiday homes/semi permanent Spanish homes, who enjoy the sun and relaxation of the Med' but for health and financial security won't commit. That is their choice, but trying to achieve the best of both worlds MAY come to an abrupt end towards the end of 2017, if you're a UK resident?
> 
> My family are getting in whilst the law and right to settle are pretty much straight forward. Others who don't want to commit (in the UK) will gradually see their European right of movement erode over the coming years.
> 
> At this point in time, an 'in/out' EU election in the UK would be a given. Times have changed and so has the attitudes of the majority of the voters in the UK. Soft touch? Not for much longer ...


Nice post Expatliving and I am with you. My heading for the thread is misleading and my first post on the subject informed the readers that the thread is The Case Against Buying in Spain as an Investment. My hat is off to anybody who bought to live in Spain because it is what they wanted to do. All I am "arguing" is that buying as an investment is not the right move at this time and for quite some years to come.

Let's turn the clock back eight years. We bought as investment and watched the property market rise and rise. We all felt like millionaires. Our property was making more per month than what we were earning in a year. The forums were full of wise investors and could not expound enough on why is not everybody else on the bandwagon. The pubs in Spain were full of purchasers gloating of the terrific investments made. You could not get better advisors anywhere. We were all ready to take on the City. 

Then the crash came. New Mercedes had to be traded in for a Punto (2nd Hand). Property owners who were not going to allow anybody other than family to use the beds inevitably soon became available for every Tom, Dick and Harry to rent. The forums in many resorts have become waste grounds and limited to a few near trolls just to keep them ticking over. Where has all the buzz of yesteryear gone? 

The Financial Whizz Kids of eight years ago have gone to ground. Apartment complexes are full of Se Vende signs and more and more Se Alquiler signs are now appearing.

If somebody does not call Halt, property prices are going to drop further. It is not rocket science. The current upturn is another "bubble" generated by greedy banks trying to salvage something and still we now have new "experts" advising us to buy even when the dogs on the road know it is bordering almost on the ludicrous to even think of buying as an investment.

So, you are not buying as an investment; you want to live in the sun. Great, now is the time for you to buy.


----------



## Megsmum

Expatliving said:


> Just got on this thread, so if I may I'll give you my viewpoint:
> 
> I currently live in SE London, not far from the O2 Arena/Dome. My family are planning a move (and purchase) to Eastern Spain in the summer of 2015.
> 
> Many years ago, when I first got together with my better half, she lived in the borough of Kensington & Chelsea, whilst I was very much a Greenwich borough lad. We fretted over where would be best to live and based on affordability and what £££ would buy in each area, we ended up with more space for the same money in Greenwich borough. Now, obviously, a small flat in a distant corner of Kensington (Ladbroke Grove area) would have been nice and central, but long term plans for us were potentially family ... and extra bedrooms!
> 
> Some 27 years later, whilst my wife's friends in West London have experienced massive property rises, they have also experienced violent crime, that being several muggings etc, overcrowded services and the nearest open space without a huge tower block as a backdrop, many, many miles away.
> 
> The point is, it's not all about profit, quality of life is far more important. I own my property, it's a standard semi-detached but the value has risen greatly over the years. I will purchase in Spain, I'll rent for a while and commit my family's future to Spain.
> 
> I hesitate to say this, but I know of several persons, with holiday homes/semi permanent Spanish homes, who enjoy the sun and relaxation of the Med' but for health and financial security won't commit. *That is their choice, but trying to achieve the best of both worlds MAY come to an abrupt end towards the end of 2017, if you're a UK resident?*
> 
> My family are getting in whilst the law and right to settle are pretty much straight forward. Others who don't want to commit (in the UK) will gradually see their European right of movement erode over the coming years.
> 
> At this point in time, an 'in/out' EU election in the UK would be a given. Times have changed and so has the attitudes of the majority of the voters in the UK. Soft touch? Not for much longer ...



Ok Basically busy living and settling in here . and listen to very little news from anywhere except the bloke next door and Sky not particularly engaged in Fernando's Donkey. Why end of 2017 is that when a referendum is expected?


----------



## mrypg9

cambio said:


> Ok Basically busy living and settling in here . and listen to very little news from anywhere except the bloke next door and Sky not particularly engaged in Fernando's Donkey. Why end of 2017 is that when a referendum is expected?


Yes, if and it's a big 'if' Cameron wins the election. 
I really can't understand why anyone should think for one second that anything that happens in the next twenty or more years will affect British immigrants in Spain or anywhere in the EU. It's possible, *if *we have a referendum and *if,* many years later the UK does take the very radical step of leaving the UK, new immigrants might face barriers. But does anyone seriously imagine that any Spanish Government, whether PP, PSOE or whatever, would issue marching orders to all the British immigrants who have made Spain their home? And not because of the 'untold wealth' that we supposedly bring (if interested, see my thread on Social Capital). It just isn't feasible. Spain isn't a banana republic where legitimate longstanding property rights can be ridden over roughshod.

Cameron doesn't want the UK to leave the UK. He's said so. He wants to renegotiate certain parts of the Lisbon Treaty. I think that would be desirable, depending of course on the detail. I don't like the EU as presently constituted, it's a free-marketeers' club but I'm not so naïve as to think for one moment that any UK Government will take any notice of what I or the rest of the British public think as it will be Big Business that will be pulling the strings, starting with a massive advertising campaign terrifying everyone about the alleged massive job losses that would result if we left the EU.

So forget about 2017. It's of no importance.


----------



## mrypg9

Oh, and the last opinion poll conducted by MORI, I think it was, showed that as of now 56% of the British public want the UK to remain in the EU. 

UKIP and Co make a lot of noise but it is, as the Bard put it, a 'tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying ...nothing'.
Which just about sums up Farage.



*Ukip's polarising effect: support for staying in the EU hits 23-year high*


*A new poll by Ipsos MORI finds that 56% of Britons would vote to stay in the EU - the highest level of support since 1991*


----------



## Expatliving

I think it's very important to take into account the freedom of movement implications IF the UK leaves the EU. I can tell you from the 'coal face' of urban London, the average 'Joe' (excuse the stereotype) has basically had enough of being misled by lying governments. When you hear that a well respected Labour minister took great delight in "rubbing the tories (right) noses in the mire" when the borders were flung open, it leaves a slightly 'rank' taste in your mouth ... especially as the people it most affected was the working classes, that being, mostly Labour voters!

They call it a 'disconnect' in the UK, when somebody wants to be associated with a section of society, but in truth, they're absolutely miles away and have no intention of being part of that class ... which they believe to be below them (sic). In another world, none of the bankers that helped cause so many problems have ever been charged with fraud/theft? Strange that ... democracy/capitalism stinks sometimes?


----------



## mrypg9

Expatliving said:


> I think it's very important to take into account the freedom of movement implications IF the UK leaves the EU. I can tell you from the 'coal face' of urban London, the average 'Joe' (excuse the stereotype) has basically had enough of being misled by lying governments. When you hear that a well respected Labour minister took great delight in "rubbing the tories (right) noses in the mire" when the borders were flung open, it leaves a slightly 'rank' taste in your mouth ... especially as the people it most affected was the working classes, that being, mostly Labour voters!
> 
> They call it a 'disconnect' in the UK, when somebody wants to be associated with a section of society, but in truth, they're absolutely miles away and have no intention of being part of that class ... which they believe to be below them (sic). In another world, none of the bankers that helped cause so many problems have ever been charged with fraud/theft? Strange that ... democracy/capitalism stinks sometimes?


I agree with every word you have written....but I would bet money on the UK being in the UK in 2027.....and gambling is the only vice I don't have.


----------



## Leper

Time for a separate thread titled UK to Stay in the EU or to Leave the Eu, I think.


----------



## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> I agree with every word you have written....but* I would bet money on the UK being in the UK* in 2027.....and gambling is the only vice I don't have.


Have you been indulging in one of your other vices?


----------



## Expatliving

mrypg9 said:


> I agree with every word you have written....but I would bet money on the UK being in the UK in 2027.....and gambling is the only vice I don't have.


I sincerely hope you're right!

But, the so called 'working classes' (always makes me laugh as even rich bankers work?) - have turned their dislike from foreigners to misleading politicians. Hand on heart, I don't like waiting over a week to get a doctors appointment, but ... that is society in urban London.

On the plus side (excuse my London tangent) my city of birth no longer has crappy areas to live. Even the old 'poor' areas are now up an coming, anybody reading this who moved from the east end etc, especially if they sold their homes (if they were lucky to own a home) would be shocked in the change in fortunes for many former run down areas.

Anybody on the Costas, tomorrow morning take a look out of your window and chances are that lovely villa/penthouse apartment you can see wouldn't even, if owned and sold, buy you a one bedroom flat in numerous parts of London.

Investments? Those who bought into the spiel of Spain in the early noughties to the crash, were either foolish, conned or maybe the most savvy? If you live and own/rent in Spain? I regard you as the lucky ones. Quality of life above location, location, location. 

Enjoy it while you're away from the 'dog eat dog' society that cities in the UK have become ... Wish I was there.


----------



## Justina

*EU*



mrypg9 said:


> I agree with every word you have written....but I would bet money on the UK being in the UK in 2027.....and gambling is the only vice I don't have.


I don't gamble either, but the govt doesn't throw in the towel to the EU and say that is it. It would take years to leave it and what would seem more sensible for our politicians is to tell us and 'them' what pisses us off. One never hears of The Netherlands complaining about anything, they just jolly along quite happily, yet one of the first to join the 'Common Market'.


----------



## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> Have you been indulging in one of your other vices?


Yes..two, actually..just back from an evening wining and dining, or, vulgarly put, stuffing my face...


----------



## maxd

Expatliving said:


> I sincerely hope you're right!
> 
> But, the so called 'working classes' (always makes me laugh as even rich bankers work?) - have turned their dislike from foreigners to misleading politicians. Hand on heart, I don't like waiting over a week to get a doctors appointment, but ... that is society in urban London.
> 
> On the plus side (excuse my London tangent) my city of birth no longer has crappy areas to live. Even the old 'poor' areas are now up an coming, anybody reading this who moved from the east end etc, especially if they sold their homes (if they were lucky to own a home) would be shocked in the change in fortunes for many former run down areas.
> 
> Anybody on the Costas, tomorrow morning take a look out of your window and chances are that lovely villa/penthouse apartment you can see wouldn't even, if owned and sold, buy you a one bedroom flat in numerous parts of London.
> 
> Investments? Those who bought into the spiel of Spain in the early noughties to the crash, were either foolish, conned or maybe the most savvy? If you live and own/rent in Spain? I regard you as the lucky ones. Quality of life above location, location, location.
> 
> Enjoy it while you're away from the 'dog eat dog' society that cities in the UK have become ... Wish I was there.


We stayed just off Brick Lane a few weeks back. In the 90's it was a crap hole where you went for a curry, now it has trendy bearded hipster folk, bespoke chocolate shops, vintage clothing stores and looking in the window of the estate agent obscene flat prices. Honestly paying 600k for the 2 bed place we were staying in would make me weep. Our 5 bedroom Canary Island Villa cost half that.

We went for a curry too, still can do that and it was the worst one I have ever had  Love visiting London though, what a great city to have a weekend in.


----------



## Williams2

Dunpleecin said:


> Ah yes, renting. Isn't that where you put 500€ into someone's pocket every month and at the end of a period of time there is nothing to show for it, whereas if you took out a mortgage for half that you're well on the way to owning the same place that you can sell? Even if you can't sell immediately you can rent it out to get your money back.
> 
> Never understood the mentality of long term renting. I know some people HAVE to owing to circumstances, but given the choice, assuming I was in an area I wanted to stay and wasn't just moving around all the time, I'd rather know that what I was spending on property was going to be mine in the long term.



Sorry I'm a bit late into this discussion but I just wanted to add my 2 cents worth
concerning a period in ( not so long ago ) recent history when it would have been
bad to buy rather than rent in the UK.
I'm of course referring to the period in the late 1980's when house prices soared
year in year out only for them to crash, late in 1988 and well into the 90's with
many Brit's caught in the 'negative equity trap' when house fell by as much as
50 per cent in some areas.
Just to set the scene:

From its low point in February 1988 UK inflation rose with apparent inexorability: of the 31 months until it peaked at 10.9% in October 1990, there were only four months when inflation fell. In response, interest rates were progressively increased, doubling from 7.4% in June 1988 to 15% in October 1988, being cut by one point to 14% when the pound entered the ERM, the level of interest rates Lamont inherited as chancellor. As a result, the economy began to slow, contracting by 1.1% in the third quarter of 1990 and shrinking a further 0.7% in the final quarter of the year.Thus Lamont's period as Chancellor started with inflation at its highest level since 1982 and the economy in recession.

I know that the events of 1988 - can seem worlds apart from today but many
Brit's who bought a house on what ( in their eyes ) was an affordable interest
rate of 7.4 per cent were faced with a double whammy of house prices 
collapsing amidst a swathe of people selling because they couldn't afford the
mushrooming interest rates.
Many of those same Brit's got stuck in the so called 'negative equity trap' as
a result.
Can it happen in the UK again ? who knows but - as the recent decline in oil prices has
shown - never assume anything in this uncertain world.


----------



## baldilocks

Williams2 said:


> Sorry I'm a bit late into this discussion but I just wanted to add my 2 cents worth
> concerning a period in ( not so long ago ) recent history when it would have been
> bad to buy rather than rent in the UK.
> I'm of course referring to the period in the late 1980's when house prices soared
> year in year out only for them to crash, late in 1988 and well into the 90's with
> many Brit's caught in the 'negative equity trap' when house fell by as much as
> 50 per cent in some areas.
> Just to set the scene:
> 
> From its low point in February 1988 UK inflation rose with apparent inexorability: of the 31 months until it peaked at 10.9% in October 1990, there were only four months when inflation fell. In response, interest rates were progressively increased, doubling from 7.4% in June 1988 to 15% in October 1988, being cut by one point to 14% when the pound entered the ERM, the level of interest rates Lamont inherited as chancellor. As a result, the economy began to slow, contracting by 1.1% in the third quarter of 1990 and shrinking a further 0.7% in the final quarter of the year.Thus Lamont's period as Chancellor started with inflation at its highest level since 1982 and the economy in recession.
> 
> I know that the events of 1988 - can seem worlds apart from today but many
> Brit's who bought a house on what ( in their eyes ) was an affordable interest
> rate of 7.4 per cent were faced with a double whammy of house prices
> collapsing amidst a swathe of people selling because they couldn't afford the
> mushrooming interest rates.
> Many of those same Brit's got stuck in the so called 'negative equity trap' as
> a result.
> Can it happen in the UK again ? who knows but - as the recent decline in oil prices has
> shown - never assume anything in this uncertain world.


We bought our flat in UK when interest rates were 14% - it was difficult with, at the time, only one income. Plus we had the Poll Tax to contend with.

You omit to point out that this was when the Tories (the same lot as now) and MT (initially) were in power.


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## mrypg9

maxd said:


> We stayed just off Brick Lane a few weeks back. In the 90's it was a crap hole where you went for a curry, now it has trendy bearded hipster folk, bespoke chocolate shops, vintage clothing stores and looking in the window of the estate agent obscene flat prices. Honestly paying 600k for the 2 bed place we were staying in would make me weep. Our 5 bedroom Canary Island Villa cost half that.
> 
> We went for a curry too, still can do that and it was the worst one I have ever had  Love visiting London though, what a great city to have a weekend in.


I remember Brick Lane in the late 1960s...I'm older than you. Yes, it was the pits but interesting. That area was a real day out - Petticoat Lane, that flower market, can't remember the street where it was.
Back then the area was a mix, Jewish and Pakistani. You could eat well too. There was a well-known Jewish restaurant not far from Brick Lane. We used to visit on Sundays then buy beigels to take home.
Another area I knew well when it was a ****hole but has since become trendy...Hackney. When my son and dil first got together when they were young, late 1980s, they bought a tarted-up Edwardian house in Culford Road, next to a well-known gay pub. One side of the road, their side, was in the Borough of Hackney, the other in Islington. My dil used to say they lived in Islington, my prole son always said they lived in Hackney. The area was beginning to be gentrified, it was known as the Beauvoir Estate. 
The butch lesbians from the pub used to whistle at my dil when she was washing the car in shorts and they upset my son as they were members of ***** on Bikes and had bigger motorbikes than him.
Ah, those were the days....
You couldn't buy a dog kennel in that area now unless you had £millions to splash out.


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## mrypg9

Have just checked and the current average price of property in that street is £1.300000.

Unbelievable.....that was and in some ways still is one of the grottiest parts of North London. It's the Balls Pond Road area, scarcely salubrious. The daughter of a friend was mugged,stabbed and almost died just a few hundred metres away...
Where do the people who keep London moving live? The bus drivers, tube drivers, shop assistants, bar workers and so on...These once working-class areas are now way beyond their reach. Average rents there are around £2500 pcm.
Lunacy....

I got it wrong, it seems. The houses are early Victorian, renovated. The area is now known as 'Canonbury ' in Estate Agent parlance.


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## maxd

Property details for 77 Fortis Green London N2 9JD - Zoopla mum sold this in 1989 for 200k.


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## mrypg9

maxd said:


> Property details for 77 Fortis Green London N2 9JD - Zoopla mum sold this in 1989 for 200k.


Crazy!!! Is that the Finchley or Muswell Hill end of Fortis Green Road?

My ex-husband bought a somewhat rundown four bed property in Balfour Road Islington in 1982, I think it was. He had to do a lot of work on it but being a practical sort of chap did most of it himself. 
He sold it about fifteen years later for over £600k and moved to a similar property in Muswell Hill. Now they sell for £1.500000.
What kind of people buy these houses at those prices???


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## Derek H

maxd said:


> Property details for 77 Fortis Green London N2 9JD - Zoopla mum sold this in 1989 for 200k.


No wonder we moved out of Finchley. Born and dragged up. We keep moving North. We live in Northampton now, or as my sister insists in calling it, North Hampton. Not quite North Finchley. Now there's serious money.
Next move ? A long way south. :fingerscrossed:

Derek


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## Expatliving

I can't comment on living outside the South East of England (Urban London to be precise), but society has drifted towards a return to a contrived class structure. Whilst the recession was hitting the average man/woman on the streets of the UK, strangely (once again!) big business in many sectors were chugging along just nicely. In fact so nicely that the good old board of directors in many cases pushed forward massive wage increases for the powers to be, whilst the less mortals were told "you're lucky to still have a job" ...

Despite the positives of an economy in the UK being at the top of the G7 for growth and pushing forward way past the flat-lining European nations, it disguises a real truth that for many these really are bad times ... And in a UK way, just as bad as the economic situation in Spain and EU as a whole.

Spain and other similar nations will struggle to recover whilst there is wide spread corruption and mismanagement at local level. Yes, the UK has dodgy politicians/councillors, but when they're caught the law normally goes after them.

I read many expat forums and newspapers on some of the outrageous actions that European countries impose of their residents/tax payers. Laughing off a crooked mayor in a Pueblo town etc is the recipe for continued problems. I guess if you're old enough and a lifetime resident in Spain, you're too scared even now to question those in charge ... Perhaps it's the last knockings of the long gone Franco?

Find a lovely Spanish place to live, keep your head down and be a positive member of the community. I'm going to take a chance on finding my own little piece of utopia next Summer.


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## Roy C

My daughter lives in a flatshare in Bethnal Green, she has a small room and pays £650 a month for the pleasure. 
Although tube drivers now earn £50K a year they could not afford to buy in a lot of London, unless they as a couple both do the same job, then you get a few that do or else they bought years ago. Most live out in the sticks, even in places like North Ampton or Sutton etc They get a 75% discount on their NR travel, which helps.

When on night shift (rarely) we pop down to Brick Lane for the hot salt beef bagels..........


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## maxd

mrypg9 said:


> Crazy!!! Is that the Finchley or Muswell Hill end of Fortis Green Road?
> 
> My ex-husband bought a somewhat rundown four bed property in Balfour Road Islington in 1982, I think it was. He had to do a lot of work on it but being a practical sort of chap did most of it himself.
> He sold it about fifteen years later for over £600k and moved to a similar property in Muswell Hill. Now they sell for £1.500000.
> What kind of people buy these houses at those prices???


Closer to East Finchley but near enough half way to Muswell Hill. Sorry one correction, it went on the market in 90-91 but sold in about 93, basically the bottom of the market after the crash of the late 80's. Even in London in those days was hard to sell because if the negative equity stuff on the news all the time. Today it would probably sell for asking price in 3 days.


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## maxd

Expatliving said:


> I can't comment on living outside the South East of England (Urban London to be precise), but society has drifted towards a return to a contrived class structure. Whilst the recession was hitting the average man/woman on the streets of the UK, strangely (once again!) big business in many sectors were chugging along just nicely. In fact so nicely that the good old board of directors in many cases pushed forward massive wage increases for the powers to be, whilst the less mortals were told "you're lucky to still have a job" ...
> 
> Despite the positives of an economy in the UK being at the top of the G7 for growth and pushing forward way past the flat-lining European nations, it disguises a real truth that for many these really are bad times ... And in a UK way, just as bad as the economic situation in Spain and EU as a whole.
> 
> Spain and other similar nations will struggle to recover whilst there is wide spread corruption and mismanagement at local level. Yes, the UK has dodgy politicians/councillors, but when they're caught the law normally goes after them.
> 
> I read many expat forums and newspapers on some of the outrageous actions that European countries impose of their residents/tax payers. Laughing off a crooked mayor in a Pueblo town etc is the recipe for continued problems. I guess if you're old enough and a lifetime resident in Spain, you're too scared even now to question those in charge ... Perhaps it's the last knockings of the long gone Franco?
> 
> Find a lovely Spanish place to live, keep your head down and be a positive member of the community. I'm going to take a chance on finding my own little piece of utopia next Summer.


If you own your place in London, you should be set for your Spanish adventure for life either by renting it out and renting for less in Spain or selling and taking out the equity. Lucky fellow.


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## Expatliving

In with both feet, full commitment, change of lifestyle and had enough of the big city ... with 80% equity, thankfully.

For us, the cash cow of London home ownership no longer has a strangle hold on our day to day lives ... It really is time to move on, even though we are both 15+ years off retirement. 

If it all goes wrong? Well, I've always fancied a place near the South coast? But I'll keep my fingers crossed on our Spanish dream.


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## webmarcos

mrypg9 said:


> Have just checked and the current average price of property in that street is £1.300000.
> 
> Unbelievable.....that was and in some ways still is one of the grottiest parts of North London. It's the Balls Pond Road area, scarcely salubrious. The daughter of a friend was mugged,stabbed and almost died just a few hundred metres away...
> Where do the people who keep London moving live? The bus drivers, tube drivers, shop assistants, bar workers and so on...These once working-class areas are now way beyond their reach. Average rents there are around £2500 pcm.
> ....


Shop assistants, bar workers, cleaners etc tend to be migrant workers willing to share 2 or 3 to a room for a couple of years. If they manage to work 2 jobs they can save up quite a bit of money to take home where the money goes further (and remember that tax credits can make up a low wage). Of course they'll never afford to buy in central London but who can?
Incidentally (and I think I've mentioned this before) some pubs have managed to survive by opening up a hostel on the premises. I know personally 1 or 2 migrant workers who stay in a hostel as it's cheaper than renting a bedsit or flat. No idea how they put up with it but still....


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## mrypg9

webmarcos said:


> Shop assistants, bar workers, cleaners etc tend to be migrant workers willing to share 2 or 3 to a room for a couple of years. If they manage to work 2 jobs they can save up quite a bit of money to take home where the money goes further (and remember that tax credits can make up a low wage). Of course they'll never afford to buy in central London but who can?
> Incidentally (and I think I've mentioned this before) some pubs have managed to survive by opening up a hostel on the premises. I know personally 1 or 2 migrant workers who stay in a hostel as it's cheaper than renting a bedsit or flat. No idea how they put up with it but still....


Yes, thinking about it, the number of times I've been served in a shop or waited on in a restaurant by an indigenous British worker when in London were minimal....in fact I can't remember a single instance.
I lived in North London for thirteen years, loved it...but that was thirty years ago. Until a couple of years ago I flew back fairly regularly and stayed in Bloomsbury, in the Hotel Russell, Russell Square. I was working and on generous expenses so as well as business it was a pleasure to visit. Had I been funding myself, my experience would not have been half as pleasant, if pleasant at all. No way could I afford to go back now and live where I lived those few decades ago. As for Bloomsbury.......
That is my favourite part of London. I was at University College, London University, and that whole area around the British Museum was student flats. Now I see on the internet that a one bedroomed flat sets you back over £2000 a month. I wonder if there are still student Halls of Residence? Otherwise how can students afford even to live somewhere like Edgeware or Barking and travel in to WC1?


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## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> I wonder if there are still student Halls of Residence? Otherwise how can students afford even to live somewhere like Edgeware or Barking and travel in to WC1?


Young lad, grandson of one of our neighbours, here in Castillo is at Royal College of Music in South Kensington and while the RCM has halls of residence, they are a fair way out and the fares bump up the cost quite a bit. We managed to get him into a Catholic Hostel , More House (after Thomas More) a few minutes walk from RCM and that costs quite a bit but nothing near as much as that.


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## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> Young lad, grandson of one of our neighbours, here in Castillo is at Royal College of Music in South Kensington and while the RCM has halls of residence, they are a fair way out and the fares bump up the cost quite a bit. We managed to get him into a Catholic Hostel , More House (after Thomas More) a few minutes walk from RCM and that costs quite a bit but nothing near as much as that.


When I was at UC I was living in North London so all I had to do was get a bus to Finsbury Park Tube Station, a ten minute journey, then the Victoria Line to Euston Square or Piccadilly Line to Russell Square. I can't remember how much the journey cost but it wasn't that much.

I used to think that in many ways living in London was cheaper....in those days. You had a much greater choice of outlets whatever you were buying than out in the sticks and there was obviously a great variety of things on offer from food to clothing to furniture to...everything. We had a medium-sized flat in a 'nice' area and although I can't remember exactly how much rent we paid I don't remember it being a struggle to pay it as I wasn't working then.

I did enjoy living in London, though. The first couple of years after I left I used to load up the car every Friday straight after work and head down the motorway, returning to go straight to work on Monday morning. I soon got it out of my system, though.


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## Lynn R

According to an article in last Friday's Sur in English, in this neck of the woods at least foreign buyers are not heeding the dire warnings coming their way about not buying property in Spain. The number of purchases by foreign buyers between January and June this year in Malaga province was higher than it was during the same period in 2007 (the year before the property crash began).


Costa del Sol property purchases by foreigners now exceed pre-crisis figures. Surinenglish.com

There is a more detailed breakdown in the print edition, showing that there were fewer British buyers than in 2007 (1,018 compared to 1,919 in 2007) but many more Norwegian, Swedish, Belgian and Russian buyers in particular. More buyers from Denmark and China too, although the increase isn't as great.

The market is still depressed, of course, because the number of Spanish buyers has declined so much - only 6,389 in the first half of this year compared to 18,221 in the same period in 2007. To hear some expats talk you would think foreigners had always been the mainstay of the CDS housing market, but in fact there were only 3,506 foreign buyers in total during the first half of 2007.


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## Madliz

mrypg9 said:


> Yes, thinking about it, the number of times I've been served in a shop or waited on in a restaurant by an indigenous British worker when in London were minimal....in fact I can't remember a single instance.
> I lived in North London for thirteen years, loved it...but that was thirty years ago. Until a couple of years ago I flew back fairly regularly and stayed in Bloomsbury, in the Hotel Russell, Russell Square. I was working and on generous expenses so as well as business it was a pleasure to visit. Had I been funding myself, my experience would not have been half as pleasant, if pleasant at all. No way could I afford to go back now and live where I lived those few decades ago. As for Bloomsbury.......
> That is my favourite part of London. I was at University College, London University, and that whole area around the British Museum was student flats. Now I see on the internet that a one bedroomed flat sets you back over £2000 a month. I wonder if there are still student Halls of Residence? Otherwise how can students afford even to live somewhere like Edgeware or Barking and travel in to WC1?


My brother's just had open-heart surgery in London and, because he's a chatty sort of guy and likes people in general, counted 32 different nationalities caring for him in different ways, in the (Inter)National Health Service hospital.


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## Rugbyplod

I am looking at buying in spain having just retired, I intend to rent first to see if we like it I have seen a few that are up for sale and rent, if you rent they take the rent as part payment towards the actual price when you buy it. Is this legally enforceable are there any negatives in doing this


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## Justina

*Houses*



Rugbyplod said:


> I am looking at buying in spain having just retired, I intend to rent first to see if we like it I have seen a few that are up for sale and rent, if you rent they take the rent as part payment towards the actual price when you buy it. Is this legally enforceable are there any negatives in doing this


I would check that out, cos it could mean that you have x months to rent and then obliged to buy, where you may have already decided that you don't like the area.
It still seems sensible to come here in the winter, rent for a few months, get a feel for where you are and move on. Natch, if you know the area, then it is another situation.
It may seem like a waste of money to rent, but if it is going to be your home for the next twenty years or so then in my view a few months of renting is not wasted.


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## Rugbyplod

Thanks, that is what we were thinking rent and at least have a base to look round, we are not in a hurry both still youngish we will try both winter and summer, might seem a bit daft but not that mad about the heat but find Spanish heat different to the uk helps my Arthur


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## Justina

*Arthur*



Rugbyplod said:


> Thanks, that is what we were thinking rent and at least have a base to look round, we are not in a hurry both still youngish we will try both winter and summer, might seem a bit daft but not that mad about the heat but find Spanish heat different to the uk helps my Arthur


Not sure about your arthur, perhaps arthritits, but if you don't like the heat too much then go towards the north of Spain, where the heat is not quite so prolonged and you could well have snow for xmas.


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## Justina

*Arthur*



Justina said:


> Not sure about your arthur, perhaps arthritits, but if you don't like the heat too much then go towards the north of Spain, where the heat is not quite so prolonged and you could well have snow for xmas.


But not so good for arthur, perhaps.


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## ABERAFON

Roy C said:


> We want to buy a house to live in, so whether it goes up or down in value is irrelevant, that's why for us doing our homework and finding the right place is very important. We could travel around Spain and try a lot of areas and still pick the wrong area. We have visited a few areas Nerja to Estepona and the preference is East of Malaga as in Velez area or Estepona itself. So now it is research, research and more research and we could still get it wrong but as I say if we do get the right place it won't be for an investment, it will be to live in.


Good choice, we had a villa near Nerja for many years and loved it there and although we no longer have any property in Spain, if we were to return to Spain we would go back to Nerja- Competa area. Although I am not sure if I would buy or rent as there are pros and cons for both - hard choice!!


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## mrypg9

Madliz said:


> My brother's just had open-heart surgery in London and, because he's a chatty sort of guy and likes people in general, counted 32 different nationalities caring for him in different ways, in the (Inter)National Health Service hospital.


Something for Nigel Farage to ponder....


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## mrypg9

Lynn R said:


> According to an article in last Friday's Sur in English, in this neck of the woods at least foreign buyers are not heeding the dire warnings coming their way about not buying property in Spain. The number of purchases by foreign buyers between January and June this year in Malaga province was higher than it was during the same period in 2007 (the year before the property crash began).
> 
> 
> Costa del Sol property purchases by foreigners now exceed pre-crisis figures. Surinenglish.com
> 
> There is a more detailed breakdown in the print edition, showing that there were fewer British buyers than in 2007 (1,018 compared to 1,919 in 2007) but many more Norwegian, Swedish, Belgian and Russian buyers in particular. More buyers from Denmark and China too, although the increase isn't as great.
> 
> The market is still depressed, of course, because the number of Spanish buyers has declined so much - only 6,389 in the first half of this year compared to 18,221 in the same period in 2007. To hear some expats talk you would think foreigners had always been the mainstay of the CDS housing market, but in fact there were only 3,506 foreign buyers in total during the first half of 2007.


Two or three fairly large villas have been sold recently, at the posh end of our street. 
One was bought by a German family who have put it back on the market after less than a year (nothing we did), one by an Arab family, Saudis perhaps and another by a Chinese family who have bought a supermarket and a house in Madrid.
Since these properties would have been sold for over 500k euros as they are big and in excellent condition I guess that the Arab and the Chinese were taking advantage of the citizenship offer.

Two houses that were half-built and stayed like that for at least the six years we've been here have been finished, one is for sale.
So yes, it does seem as if things are moving but not to British buyers. Not round here anyway.


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## Lynn R

mrypg9 said:


> So yes, it does seem as if things are moving but not to British buyers. Not round here anyway.


Here (at the cheaper end of the market) I've met a couple of Brtish people who've bought house nearby during the last few months, but not as many as I have Swedish ones - which is pretty much in line with the figures quoted in the article I linked to.

Personally I'm not really fussed whether houses get sold to British people or not, are you? Some people talk as though the British are the only game in town when it come to foreigners buying property in Spain, which of course they're not, less and less so nowadays it seems. I don't suppose the Spanish care much who buys them, and nor does anybody who has their house up for sale.


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## Madliz

This sums up the property market here at the moment - nobody knows! 

Two articles from Kyero.com, one of the leading Spanish property sites:

This yesterday, "Second Hand Housing Prices Fell by 7.93% in November Y-o-Y":
http://news.kyero.com/2014/12/second-hand-housing-prices-fell-by-7-93-in-november-y-o-y/19112

This today, "Price of Housing Rises for Second Consecutive Quarter":
http://news.kyero.com/2014/12/price-of-housing-rises-for-second-consecutive-quarter/19124

Choose whichever headline you prefer to illustrate your point. I'm selling, so I'll push the second one. 

Actually, I was approached by a go-ahead sounding estate agent this week, a team led by an architect that was set up four months ago. If an estate agent is opening, rather than closing, that _is_ news.


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## Lynn R

Madliz said:


> Actually, I was approached by a go-ahead sounding estate agent this week, a team led by an architect that was set up four months ago. If an estate agent is opening, rather than closing, that _is_ news.


New branches of Scandinavian estate agents have opened in both Nerja and Torre del Mar during the last year, and Sur in English is carrying full page adverts from another one every week these days.


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## Roy C

On the news yesterday it was on about the price of oil going down and if it hit $60 Spain would suffer deflation, not sure what that would mean to the property market or recovery if any (which I hope there is) in Spain.


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## Lynn R

Roy C said:


> On the news yesterday it was on about the price of oil going down and if it hit $60 Spain would suffer deflation, not sure what that would mean to the property market or recovery if any (which I hope there is) in Spain.


Funnily enough, there was a piece in El Mundo today about one organisation revising it's estimate of the predicted growth in the Spanish economy upwards for next year, with the fall in the price of oil being one reason for that.
http://www.elmundo.es/economia/2014/12/11/5489736522601d9d0d8b4572.html

I must admit, unless the country is a producer and exporter of oil, then I can't really see how a big fall in oil prices can be harmful as it must surely reduce the costs of most industries, and if consumers have to spend less to fill up their cars, then they'll have more money spare to spend on other things, won't they?

That's if the prices at the petrol pumps come down at anything like the same rate as wholesale prices, that is. The oil companies never seem quite as keen to reduce prices neither as quickly nor by so much as they are to pass on increases in wholesale prices to consumers, do they?


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## baldilocks

The only sale I have heard of recently was to a Dutch couple. A young lad (Spanish) is looking at buying the house round the corner if he can get the finance - it has three bedrooms and is on four floors - a snip at 24k but needs some work.


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## Roy C

baldilocks said:


> The only sale I have heard of recently was to a Dutch couple. A young lad (Spanish) is looking at buying the house round the corner if he can get the finance - it has three bedrooms and is on four floors - a snip at 24k but needs some work.


OMG I would almost be tempted to jack in the job now, forget the VS and buy something like that, almost


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## maxd

Scandinavia has had huge house price inflation, they are really rolling in cash if they sell out their Stockholm or Copenhagen property as are people in London.

What people tend to forget when calling for the death of Spanish property is that just like Florida people in the North retire, cash out and want to move somewhere warm. There will always be demand on the coast and a transfer of cash from property when northern Europeans sell up.

Our foreign neighbours are mainly still working and are in their 40's and 50's so there is that segment too of people who have moved and second home owners like myself. There are many reasons for buying in Spain, the main one the weather because 500 million people live in **** weather and almost all of them dream about escaping it


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## VFR

maxd said:


> Scandinavia has had huge house price inflation, they are really rolling in cash if they sell out their Stockholm or Copenhagen property as are people in London.
> 
> What people tend to forget when calling for the death of Spanish property is that just like Florida people in the North retire, cash out and want to move somewhere warm. There will always be demand on the coast and a transfer of cash from property when northern Europeans sell up.
> 
> Our foreign neighbours are mainly still working and are in their 40's and 50's so there is that segment too of people who have moved and second home owners like myself. There are many reasons for buying in Spain, the main one the weather because 500 million people live in **** weather and almost all of them dream about escaping it




Ain't that a fact Max.


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