# Japanese Work Ethic - Odd....



## listerd

I have been living in Tokyo for the last 6 months and thought to share this with you.

My wife works for a Japanese company and it is very normal for her to work 20 hours a day. On several occasions she worked for two days solid. That might sound crazy but thats the truth.

The concept of working smart is NOT a Japanese way. 

Personal sacrifice and suffering is seen as loyalty and is appreciated. So, an employee with 3 hours sleep within 24 hours makes a good employee.

Its a load of baloney.

The real reason why the Japanese economy has flatlined for close to 20 years is because of the inability to "work smart"

There are 16 suicides a day on average in Japan. 16. Go figure.

!!

I love this country but the work ethic is simply not working. They need to become more individual more de-centralised and start thinking as individuals rather than this huge organisim that is stuck in the 1980s...

Rant over. 

Japan is amazing though and I love everything about it. But *dont *come here to work!!!!!!!

Also, someone told me an interesting analogy: the Japanese dont have the religious zeal of the jews, muslims etc but for them work is THE religion and you can really see that.


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## expatpharmd

listerd said:


> Personal sacrifice and suffering is seen as loyalty and is appreciated. So, an employee with 3 hours sleep within 24 hours makes a good employee.


We have that here in America too. People expect you to sacrifice your personal life for your career. Even if some of the things you are forced to do are irrelevant for your career. You'll lose years of your life working for something that ultimately doesn't matter for your personal or professional goals. Years that you could have spent pursuing more important matters.



> Japan is amazing though and I love everything about it. But *dont *come here to work!!!!!!!


Your wife works in a _corporate_ environment, correct? Know anything about a healthcare environment?


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## Fjac

I agree with you. The work ethic does really suck in terms of a lack of interest in employees' personal lives. I've been to Japan, but I didn't work there, so it's hard to say from a personal standpoint. However, it should be noted that it is a cultural topic. The Japanese mentality of always striving for success or, at the very least, avoiding shame, is basically ingrained. It isn't like the goal is to make peoples' lives miserable; it's the idea of proving one's self worth. I don't agree with it, but a lot of cultural aspects look odd or even bad from a foreign perspective.


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## pasturesnew

Fjac said:


> I agree with you. The work ethic does really suck in terms of a lack of interest in employees' personal lives. I've been to Japan, but I didn't work there, so it's hard to say from a personal standpoint. However, it should be noted that it is a cultural topic. The Japanese mentality of always striving for success or, at the very least, avoiding shame, is basically ingrained. It isn't like the goal is to make peoples' lives miserable; it's the idea of proving one's self worth. I don't agree with it, but a lot of cultural aspects look odd or even bad from a foreign perspective.


The Japanese work ethic or what you think is more long standing tradition than anything else, sure the J Salary Man/Woman stay in the office for possibly 10 hours + a day, rest assurred they are not actually being any more productive, they simply stretch their work out throughout the day, when the boss leaves they are not far behind him/her , then followed by after work drinks before returning home to their husbands/wives.... Dont feel sorry for the J Worker, they are not over worked, they over stay in the Office and cant resist a drink afterwards !!
Sounds harsh - but its true in the majority of cases. 
I work in a non J Company in Tokyo, so its really very different, ie everyone works regular hours..


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## expatpharmd

Fjac said:


> it's the idea of proving one's self worth. I don't agree with it, but a lot of cultural aspects look odd or even bad from a foreign perspective.


My perspective is this: most people are delusional. Most people think they deserve everything they want without having to earn it. Most people refuse to pay their dues for what they want and get pissed off if the universe does not deliver to them what they desire. Most people think they are special... even though they have done nothing to prove it. And don't give me that **** that everyone is special. Not everyone can achieve their life goals, and that's the truth. 

Paying your dues to get what you want is a given. However, once you've paid them, it may not always be worth it. That's the risk you have to take to achieve what you want. That's the risk most people are unwilling to take. Because once you've earned what you wanted, were your sacrifices worth it? If so, great. If not, you'll have to reassess your life and figure out what your priorities are so you can put first what matters most to you. Most people don't seem to have the fortitude to do this, because there is a chance they'll be disappointed with what they've earned. There's a chance that all their effort was for nothing. Guess what? That's life. Deal with it.


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## JWilliamson

Nice thinking Expatpharmd, but did you include in your thinking human/ body needs? Such as sleep which in medical field they say a human will need 8 hrs of sleep in order to stay healthy and live longer? What about physical needs such as exercise and sex? How about emotional needs such as family, time with the kids, lovers and friends and not to forget neighbors? How about growth like in reading books and seeing art? If life is only about one thing like work then we will become unbalanced and not human but more like a ant with no thoughts and no self/ It is not about being special we are not it doesnt take a miracle to make a child but it takes a miracle to be a complete human. JW


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## larabell

It's one thing to preach balance and I'm sure we could all use a bit more balance in our lives. But I thought the topic was the Japanese "Work Ethic" and how it affects that balance for the typical salaryman. I don't think this is as much cultural as simply habitual and self-enforced. If salaried employees here were being held in the office against their better judgement, why then do they often go out drinking with their work buddies after they leave the office. If they are so starved for social time with their families, why do so many spend their weekends golfing with their friends instead of spending time at home with the kids? Those are choices that individuals make on their own and they still opt to spend time with their working peers.

The company "Work Ethic" has little to do with "work", per-se, and more to do with peer pressure and the need to "save face". Nobody wants to be seen as the guy who bolts for the door the moment the clock strikes five. In an environment where individual accomplishment is not even recognized, much less rewarded, everyone is seen as being just another cog in the wheel. The only hope for standing out as a "team player" is to make it look like you're more dedicated than the guy sitting at the next desk. The only way to do that, in most Japanese companies, is to make sure you're there when he comes in and still there when he leaves.

But it really is just time warming a seat. Few really try to get ahead by working hard because there's no mechanism for recognizing that within the company (at least in traditional Japanese office environments). So everyone does just enough and not much more.

I knew a fellow who used to go out to lunch every day, buy a comic from the local bookstore, and sit and read it for most of the afternoon. I asked him once why and he said that since he had to be near the phone to take support calls and since most of his customers came to the office late and worked in the evenings, he had to be there most of the day -- so he spent the time between calls reading his comics. The interesting thing is that nobody thought that was in the least bit unusual. On the other hand, there was another guy in the same group (a salesman, actually) who used to schedule things so he could be gone by 5pm because he had a new baby at home.

People tend to set their own priorities no matter where they are or what their culture. For some, it's more important to be seen as a team player, for some, a seat warmer, for others, a decent father. And I've even met people who prefer to come in late and work into the evening because it made their commute more tolerable. There are probably some bosses here and there who expect their employees to work long hours but Japan certainly has no corner on that market. For the most part, working here isn't that much different from working anywhere else. It really depends where you end up. There are plenty of places to work where you don't have to kill yourself -- if, that is, you can find a job at all in this economy...


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## expatpharmd

JWilliamson said:


> Nice thinking Expatpharmd, but did you include in your thinking human/ body needs? Such as sleep which in medical field they say a human will need 8 hrs of sleep in order to stay healthy and live longer? What about physical needs such as exercise and sex? How about emotional needs such as family, time with the kids, lovers and friends and not to forget neighbors? How about growth like in reading books and seeing art? If life is only about one thing like work then we will become unbalanced and not human but more like a ant with no thoughts and no self/ It is not about being special we are not it doesnt take a miracle to make a child but it takes a miracle to be a complete human. JW


My thinking is this: find a job where you get the most reward per unit of work you put into it. "Reward" is subjective. It may mean more free time, it may mean more money, it may mean some other personal satisfaction. For me it means all 3.

My ultimate goal is to retire as quickly as possible so I can have more time to pursue my self-interests. Now, the quicker I can save up a small nest egg the quicker I can retire, right? So for my goal, this means a high paying job. The more money I earn, the quicker I can retire. If I earn 5 figures USD a year, I may retire in maybe 40 years. If I earn 6 figures USD a year, I could potentially retire in 20 years. If I earn 7 figures a year USD, I could potentially retire in 5-10 years. If I earn 8 figures USD a year, I could potentially retire in 1-5 years. If I earn a billion USD a year, I could retire in one month. See where I'm going with this? Figure out your goals, then figure out a way to make it happen. For me, the more money I earn, the quicker I can leave the rat race behind and do what I want to do. I had to sacrifice quite a bit to get this far, and it is early retirement that keeps me going. Fortunately, I have paid most of my dues and am in a position where I can actually work less than I have before and still succeed in achieving my life goals. 

And before people give me **** for that, I'm not the only one doing this. Others have done this before with great success, so **** off if my mentality offends you. I will not change myself for anyone. My life goals are more important to me than the rest of the world and I will not compromise. What I want for me matters more than what others want for me.


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## expatpharmd

larabell said:


> People tend to set their own priorities no matter where they are or what their culture.


Exactly. We do what we need to do to make sure that what matters most to us is sustained. 

And "balance" is not always possible. If you put equal effort into all things you do, then you've divided up your resources so each thing you do is half-assed. If you put all your effort into one thing, that one thing will bear fruit while other aspects suffer. It's about what you're willing to give up to get something. People who think they can achieve anything without at least one sacrifice are delusional. If you're not willing to give up anything, you'll never get anything.


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## JWilliamson

True man you do what you believe is best for you. My goal is not wait 5, 10, 20, 30 yrs to do what i really want to do but do it now and get paid for it. Say at first what i really enjoy doing only allows me a small pay check well ill be happy doing it and i will do it with a smile and in time this happiness will attract more money. Spending years in something i dont like doing just to save money well it will work but those can be some hard boring years. Either way we each have our own paths to follow and hopefully we all end up in a happy place. JW


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## JWilliamson

*all your effort?*



expatpharmd said:


> Exactly. We do what we need to do to make sure that what matters most to us is sustained.
> 
> And "balance" is not always possible. If you put equal effort into all things you do, then you've divided up your resources so each thing you do is half-assed. If you put all your effort into one thing, that one thing will bear fruit while other aspects suffer. It's about what you're willing to give up to get something. People who think they can achieve anything without at least one sacrifice are delusional. If you're not willing to give up anything, you'll never get anything.


Ok so about making money you put all your effort in making money? So for how many years will you be a money making machine? With in this time what % will be put in your love life? How many on kids? How about in sports? When you say you put all efforts what will you be giving up to be in this ALL? JW


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## expatpharmd

JWilliamson said:


> Ok so about making money you put all your effort in making money? So for how many years will you be a money making machine? With in this time what % will be put in your love life? How many on kids? How about in sports? When you say you put all efforts what will you be giving up to be in this ALL? JW


You'd be surprised how little effort I'd need to put forth now to earn a 6 figure salary. That was my point in a previous post. I've paid most of my dues, and no longer need to work overtime as I have in the past. I actually work less than I used to and have more free time for my personal interests. As long as I work the minimum amount of hours to keep my job, that's good enough. I sure as hell am NEVER working overtime again. Especially since it is utterly pointless for my career and will not help me earn more money or help me become better at my job. No more sacrificing my personal life for the sake of work. That's ****ing stupid. If something is optional and not essential for my job, I sure as hell don't want to do it. **** everyone who thinks otherwise.


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## JWilliamson

Sounds like a goal! JW


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## Sam James

I've worked off an on for several years in Japan, my ex-wife was/is a tokyo-born software engineer.

My observation is that Japanese "attend work" for long hours. There is heavy peer pressure to maintain a high-level of work time, to not be the first to go home. The social pressure is enormous, particularly since they care about peer opinion more than we do in the west. 

Over-working is so common that there's also a whole infrastructure for permissible burnout where you physically cannot get up and go to work for a several months. It's not a vacation, it is serious fatigue. You quit, but they still pay you, even, and encourage you to come back when you are ready.

In their semiconductor factories, employees would stand and wait at a machine, just in case work might arrive. That kind of inefficient use of human resources is bizarre from an American perspective. Surely the worker could do something else productive during that time standing around or should be permitted to leave, while some worker mans two stations. There is an exacting sense of manufacturing efficiency and quality, but a complete occlusion regarding the judicious and efficient use of human capital.

Some historians marvel a the Japanese economic miracle, given the dearth of natural resources the mountainous pacific island has. They fail to consider the shocking contribution of human capital sacrifice to make that miracle. 

The myth of the salaryman and lifetime employment is waning, however. For every work "attender" there are countless young people opting out, preferring to work low-wage, low-stress, low-time-commitment jobs at Starbucks than to participate in life-sucking work culture.

For all that tho - it's not like the Japanese bubble economy has truly sucked the economic life of the country. GDP growth per capita in Japan has outpaced the US even since the 1989 bubble.


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