# Possibly working in and then retiring in Germany



## AquamarineSea

Hello all this is my first post.

I am a UK National with a Green Card currently residing in the USA. Myself and my husband and three children lived in Germany from 2009-2015. I am 50 and starting to think about plans for retirement. I have been a stay at home parent since my children were born, mostly because we moved around a lot and it was hard to establish a career. I am thinking of gaining a TEFL qualification so I can teach English to refugees and immigrants in America and have a qualification if I move back to Europe that would be useful. If I enjoy it I may even pick up an MA in this field as I have a first degree.

I don’t see a move happening for a while, say at least a decade. I have some questions. First, would a British citizen and a American citizen be allowed to retire in Germany?Can anyone give me a ballpark figure of how much money we would need?
We are considering the option of keeping a property in the US and buying a small one in Europe and spending 6 months on each continent. 
Our children speak German fluently and our eldest is applying to college hoping to major in German with Business or education as a double major. 
If we decide to make this move my husband and I plan on working much harder on our German and taking classes.
I am assuming that health insurance will a big issue, I am recovering from cancer would that prevent me from gaining health insurance in the future?

Lots of questions and I appreciate any and all attempts to help with any answers!


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## Nononymous

A few thoughts.

Currently, as a UK national you have the right to live, work or study in Germany, and assuming your husband is a US citizen, he would have the same rights by virtue of his spousal status. However, as I'm sure you're aware, Brexit may blow all that to **** at some point in the future. 

Without EU status it's much more difficult but we'll save that conversation for another day. In general there's no such thing as a retirement visa, so you'd better hope that things don't go pear-shaped with the UK; even then I think to gain residency without working you would need to demonstrate means of financial support, which of course you'd need anyway.

Health insurance will be a big issue. There is no equivalent to the NHS, it's a funny private and publicly-regulated system. (Sorry, you lived there for six years, you would know this.) Once you reach 55 it's difficult if not impossible to get into the public system, and private coverage at that age with a pre-existing condition could be tremendously expensive. Even the public system is not cheap. Typically half the cost is paid by employers, so if you're freelance or otherwise independent, you pay the full shot. This needs careful research.

Also, since you mention that your husband is a US citizen and you have a green card, don't forget the potentially nasty complications of the awful US tax business. Thanks to FATCA you may have some issues opening anything more than a simple bank account in Germany. Not a deal-breaker but something to factor in, especially if you're planning to divide your time between two countries.


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## AquamarineSea

Thanks so much for all your detail! Yes the tax issue is why I am wondering if we should be more realistic about just spending part of the year in Europe. Maybe we need to be based in another country such as Portugal. Unfortunately it seemed like I was in rude health and worked out X 3 per week but suddenly had back pain and was diagnosed with bone cancer, it looks like I will make a full recovery but now I am aware I could have insurance issues. I hope Trump never gets to change the law where right now American insurers cannot refuse you because of preexisting conditions. I also think it is concentrating my mind and realizing that life is short! I want to get out there again and travel.


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## AquamarineSea

P.S. Yes of course horrified about Brexit. My kids who are dual citizens had always thought they could go to college and settle in Germany if they wished but it looks like that door could slam shut. However Germany has up to now been very generous to students outside the EU and considered International and I know they like US and British students at Uni level as they are relatively few compared to China and India.


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## Nononymous

1. German universities are free for international students, so that's one area that Brexit wouldn't ruin for your kids. Assuming the worst, it's still relatively simple for US citizens to attend a German university, then stay on and get a work permit. Certainly a much better deal financially that going to school in the US or UK.

2. The health insurance question will be very complicated, you will want to do further research. Currently, pre-Brexit, UK citizens over 65 can use the public system in Spain etc. as long-term residents if they qualify for NHS coverage (I think) but I don't know how or if that works in Germany.

3. The tax issue is the horrid US tax obligations that you (as a green-card holder) and your husband will have to deal with in any other country - living in Portugal would be no different from Germany. If you spend most of the year somewhere, you'd effectively be tax resident there as well as the US, so it might be worth calling the US home and remaining "tourists" for 5.9 months per year in Europe, provided you have adequate travel health cover (shouldn't be a problem because any treatment is going to cost a fraction of what it would in the US).


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## Bevdeforges

Just a couple things to add/clarify in what Nononymous has already told you.

If your husband has any sort of US SS entitlement, you would have to be careful about which EU country you choose to move to. The tax treaties vary a bit. For the UK and Germany, it's your country of residence where any US SS benefits would be taxed - which works out just fine.

Other countries (like France, where I live), the US retains its right to tax you on any and all "government" pensions like US SS or IRA withdrawals. It complicates things a bit, but certainly is not a show stopper. 

Within the EU, entitlement to join the local health system with the UK picking up the tab is limited to those who have a UK pension (regardless of their nationality). Requires getting an S1 (different name these days, but people will know what you mean) once you are receiving your UK pension. What is going to happen to that come Brexit is still very uncertain, and will no doubt depend on what sort of Brexit happens.


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## ALKB

Nononymous said:


> 1. German universities are free for international students, so that's one area that Brexit wouldn't ruin for your kids. Assuming the worst, it's still relatively simple for US citizens to attend a German university, then stay on and get a work permit. Certainly a much better deal financially that going to school in the US or UK.
> 
> 2. The health insurance question will be very complicated, you will want to do further research. Currently, pre-Brexit, UK citizens over 65 can use the public system in Spain etc. as long-term residents if they qualify for NHS coverage (I think) but I don't know how or if that works in Germany.
> 
> 3. The tax issue is the horrid US tax obligations that you (as a green-card holder) and your husband will have to deal with in any other country - living in Portugal would be no different from Germany. If you spend most of the year somewhere, you'd effectively be tax resident there as well as the US, so it might be worth calling the US home and remaining "tourists" for 5.9 months per year in Europe, provided you have adequate travel health cover (shouldn't be a problem because any treatment is going to cost a fraction of what it would in the US).


Just chiming in quickly:

Being a tourist only works for 90 days max, so it could be 3 months in, 3 months out...

Going to uni in Germany could be a very good idea for your children. Even if Brexit shuts some doors, there is then the post study work permit that can lead to settlement. One thing to keep an eye on: a few Bundesländer have introduced tuition fees for international (non-EEA) students and the issue is being looked at in most areas.


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## Nononymous

Would the 90 day Schengen thing still apply to an EU national and spouse, assuming for now that Brexit isn't a factor? I understand that there are Brits living 5.5 months per year in Spain and Portugal for various residence-related reasons (probably having to do with being allowed to drive their UK-registered vehicles or something).


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## ALKB

Nononymous said:


> Would the 90 day Schengen thing still apply to an EU national and spouse, assuming for now that Brexit isn't a factor? I understand that there are Brits living 5.5 months per year in Spain and Portugal for various residence-related reasons (probably having to do with being allowed to drive their UK-registered vehicles or something).


Beyond 90 days even EU nationals stop being tourists and have to register their residence. And with that, German health insurance becomes mandatory (unless the EU national can provide other insurance acceptable to the German authorities) and if non-EEA national family members are involved, then the same goes for them, also: the EEA national has to exercise treaty rights so that the non-EEA partner has a right to stay beyond 90 days.

EEA nationals can of course exercise treaty rights by being a jobseeker, but without being eligible for benefits (not sure whether OP might still have that option from their previous stay), the health insurance bit could be very expensive.

Americans may well be able to fly under the radar for a while but if the 6 months Europe/6 months USA pattern continues for several years it's only a matter of time until something flags up either going in or out of the Schengen zone.


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## Nononymous

Right, having a non-EU/EEA spouse could complicate things. I do hear of Brits doing the annual just-under-six-months stay in Spain etc. but I expect they are registered and carrying appropriate health insurance, but careful about time limits for tax residency reasons or keeping UK-plated right-hand-drive vehicles on the road legally. Germany may be different.

Key point being, the back-and-forth thing can be problematic and complicated. (Coming six months each year as a "jobseeker" with adequate US-based health insurance might work for a while. Where there's a will there's a way, but ingenuity and the ability to charm Beamter may be required.)


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## ALKB

Nononymous said:


> Right, having a non-EU/EEA spouse could complicate things. I do hear of Brits doing the annual just-under-six-months stay in Spain etc. but I expect they are registered and carrying appropriate health insurance, but careful about time limits for tax residency reasons or keeping UK-plated right-hand-drive vehicles on the road legally. Germany may be different.
> 
> Key point being, the back-and-forth thing can be problematic and complicated. (Coming six months each year as a "jobseeker" with adequate US-based health insurance might work for a while. Where there's a will there's a way, but ingenuity and the ability to charm Beamter may be required.)


Brits who are living in the UK for a bit more than half a year are eligible for NHS treatment and as such probably have an EHIC card that can be used in Portugal/Spain. Might also be that Portugal/Spain are just not as strict about the health insurance requirement - I must confess that I know nothing about their health care systems.

Unfortunately, the OP would fail the habitual residency test in the UK, having lived in the US for so long and would probably not be able to get an EHIC from there.


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