# Does such a residence permit exist?



## Layla_38

Hello all,

I'm hoping you can help me. 

I want to apply for a residence permit in Italy, and I will be living off of savings. Is there a visa/permit for this? If so, what is it called? I know with elective residency you have to have income coming in, but I don't have income, I have savings, and it seems strange that there wouldn't be an opportunity for me to get a residence visa if I can support myself? 

Thanks!


----------



## NickZ

You can apply for an elective visa but you will need A LOT of savings. They like pension income because it's safe.


----------



## PauloPievese

NickZ said:


> You can apply for an elective visa but you will need A LOT of savings. They like pension income because it's safe.


My take on this: Have your savings disbursed to yourself in a regular fashion similarly to a pension. Have a track record, several months. Do not necessarily do this in a rational "gotta last until I'm ninety" fashion but rather in a fashion that between this, SSI, etc. looks like at least 40K EUR annually. No guarantees but my attempt as saying "I have a chunk of cash" didn't fly; this was the advice I got which I have yet to try.
:flypig:


----------



## Layla_38

PauloPievese said:


> My take on this: Have your savings disbursed to yourself in a regular fashion similarly to a pension. Have a track record, several months. Do not necessarily do this in a rational "gotta last until I'm ninety" fashion but rather in a fashion that between this, SSI, etc. looks like at least 40K EUR annually. No guarantees but my attempt as saying "I have a chunk of cash" didn't fly; this was the advice I got which I have yet to try.
> :flypig:


Hm, you have me thinking... but like you said there are no guarantees on it... Seems ridiculous, right, that other countries tell you as long as you have at the least an equal amount per month as the country's minimum wage, you can get a residence permit. 

I find this evasive "amount" required from Italy to be elitist and stuck up - especially when I KNOW the cost of living in places like Sicily (where I've spent extensive amounts of time on and off throughout the years) and it damn sure is nowhere near what they seem to require for a residence permit. Once I called the embassy in the US to inquire about this and they couldn't even give me an amount, they said "figure 85 euro a day" - WHAT? The Sicilians themselves have told me if they had money like that they would be living like kings. So I cannot understand. It seems absolutely ludicrous.

I myself am even of Italian origin, but can't go the dual citizenship route because, as I was told, my G. Grandfather joined the army when he came to the US before my GF was born, thus they say it's implied that he announced his Italian citizenship. But that's another headache to discuss.

Thanks for your reply btw  . Sorry - this subject and the insanity of it all gets me a bit heated. 

I just don't get it.


----------



## Layla_38

[Edit] I meant renounced (not announced)


----------



## Layla_38

PauloPievese said:


> My take on this: Have your savings disbursed to yourself in a regular fashion similarly to a pension. Have a track record, several months. Do not necessarily do this in a rational "gotta last until I'm ninety" fashion but rather in a fashion that between this, SSI, etc. looks like at least 40K EUR annually. No guarantees but my attempt as saying "I have a chunk of cash" didn't fly; this was the advice I got which I have yet to try.
> :flypig:


I see that you are an expat in Italy, curious if you can tell me how you made that happen if you didn't try the disbursing your savings method?

Thank you!


----------



## PauloPievese

Layla_38 said:


> I see that you are an expat in Italy, curious if you can tell me how you made that happen if you didn't try the disbursing your savings method?
> 
> Thank you!


To quote Abraham Lincoln, "Don't believe everything you see on the Internet." 

The forum asked "Where do you live?" I said "USA." It asked "Where do you want to go?" I said "Italy." Suddenly I'm an expat in Italy without ever leaving home. 

:flypig:


----------



## panama rick

You will be hard pressed to be granted residency on savings alone. You would probably need 7 figure savings. 
What I would suggest is to contact an Italian immigration/citizenship attorney and discuss your descendancy issues. My wife did not have a clear cut path to citizenship and had to go to court to present our case. You may be surprised to learn you have an avenue to go forward.


----------



## panama rick

FYI, I did some research into your GGF joining the army and several posters have indicated their ancestors did the same thing and simply enlisted doesn't automatically constitute renunciation of Italian citizenship. You might want to inquire further.


----------



## KenzoXIV

Layla_38 said:


> Hm, you have me thinking... but like you said there are no guarantees on it... Seems ridiculous, right, that other countries tell you as long as you have at the least an equal amount per month as the country's minimum wage, you can get a residence permit.
> 
> I find this evasive "amount" required from Italy to be elitist and stuck up - especially when I KNOW the cost of living in places like Sicily (where I've spent extensive amounts of time on and off throughout the years) and it damn sure is nowhere near what they seem to require for a residence permit. Once I called the embassy in the US to inquire about this and they couldn't even give me an amount, they said "figure 85 euro a day" - WHAT? The Sicilians themselves have told me if they had money like that they would be living like kings. So I cannot understand. It seems absolutely ludicrous.
> 
> I myself am even of Italian origin, but can't go the dual citizenship route because, as I was told, my G. Grandfather joined the army when he came to the US before my GF was born, thus they say it's implied that he announced his Italian citizenship. But that's another headache to discuss.
> 
> Thanks for your reply btw  . Sorry - this subject and the insanity of it all gets me a bit heated.
> 
> I just don't get it.


85 Euros a day in Sicily.....:car:lane: 

Only joking, to be fair 85 euros a day in Sicily would go quite far but I wouldn't say you'd be a king. An operaio for a days work charges 60 euros... You can find 30-50 euros but the work ethic begins to slack


----------



## Troz

Hi Layla_38, there is some good advice here, especially:

(a) At least investigate putting your savings into some sort of annuity where you get a guaranteed income in exchange for loss of flexibility. And get advice from a disinterested financial adviser, if such people exist where you are.

(b) Don't give up on the "citizenship by descent" approach. As far as I can see Italy considers descent a pretty strong qualification (I don't qualify, alas) and if you manage to qualify it would probably be your best option.


----------



## PauloPievese

Troz said:


> investigate putting your savings into some sort of annuity where you get a guaranteed income in exchange for loss of flexibility


This is the nuclear option. Apparently it is adequate that you demonstrate regular disbursements from a source such as an Individual Retirement Account. Once you have your PDS you could cancel it. Renewing your PDS might be problematic though. At any rate, if you later decide that _la vita italiana_ ain't for you, you could reverse it then.
:flypig:


----------



## tomandmaje

One option is to get residency in another country then transfer it to Italy. From what Ia lawyer told me that is a relatively simple matter.

Maje


----------



## panama rick

Not to contradict an attorney but he/she might be wrong. Go to the EU Immigration Portal and it spells out the requirements for moving between EU countries. Remember each country has it's own rules and those have to be met. Good luck.


----------



## NickZ

It might be an easy if you have long term residence status but that requires IIRC either five or ten years.

But it's not like the other Schengen countries have vastly different rules.


----------



## tomandmaje

NickZ said:


> It might be an easy if you have long term residence status but that requires IIRC either five or ten years.
> 
> But it's not like the other Schengen countries have vastly different rules.


I do know that if someone has a one year visa from Malta that person can easily obtain an Italian visa. 

Maje


----------



## tomandmaje

panama rick said:


> Not to contradict an attorney but he/she might be wrong. Go to the EU Immigration Portal and it spells out the requirements for moving between EU countries. Remember each country has it's own rules and those have to be met. Good luck.


Well, she might be, but she's an immigration attorney.

Maje


----------



## Italia-Mx

Layla_38 said:


> Hm, you have me thinking... but like you said there are no guarantees on it... Seems ridiculous, right, that other countries tell you as long as you have at the least an equal amount per month as the country's minimum wage, you can get a residence permit.
> 
> I find this evasive "amount" required from Italy to be elitist and stuck up - especially when I KNOW the cost of living in places like Sicily (where I've spent extensive amounts of time on and off throughout the years) and it damn sure is nowhere near what they seem to require for a residence permit. Once I called the embassy in the US to inquire about this and they couldn't even give me an amount, they said "figure 85 euro a day" - WHAT? The Sicilians themselves have told me if they had money like that they would be living like kings. So I cannot understand. It seems absolutely ludicrous.
> 
> I myself am even of Italian origin, but can't go the dual citizenship route because, as I was told, my G. Grandfather joined the army when he came to the US before my GF was born, thus they say it's implied that he announced his Italian citizenship. But that's another headache to discuss.
> 
> Thanks for your reply btw  . Sorry - this subject and the insanity of it all gets me a bit heated.
> 
> I just don't get it.


If you were granted an elective residence visa based on your savings, you could blow the entire amount by the time you got to Italy, at which time you would become a public charge. Having your savings dispersed to yourself in incremental amounts won't work either because that could always change. Afterall it IS your account and you can do what you want with it. To qualify for elective residence visa, they want to see income from reliable sources such as US govt., even more so than private pension providers which could always go bust and don't have as secure a guarantee.


----------



## PauloPievese

*Seeking Experiences*



Italia-Mx said:


> If you were granted an elective residence visa based on your savings, you could blow the entire amount by the time you got to Italy, at which time you would become a public charge. Having your savings dispersed to yourself in incremental amounts won't work either because that could always change. Afterall it IS your account and you can do what you want with it. To qualify for elective residence visa, they want to see income from reliable sources such as US govt., even more so than private pension providers which could always go bust and don't have as secure a guarantee.


While I don't wish to be argumentative this contradicts what I recall having read elsewhere. When I was a carpenter I was told never to figure what you could measure so I am hereby soliciting real world experiences from people:
(a) whose savings, disbursed on a regualr basis, were discounted for the purposes of a PdS, or
(b) people whose same disbursements were accepted for this purpose.

:flypig:


----------



## NickZ

You're asking an impossible question.

The simplest answer is somebody who has bought an annuity will come by and say yes or no. But you need to ask how big the annuity is and how it was structured.


----------



## PauloPievese

NickZ said:


> You're asking an impossible question.


My _mètier_. 

But perhaps I'm not expressing the question clearly. 

Are regularly scheduled disbursements from an IRA (for this point the amount doesn't matter) acceptable to satisfy any portion of the income requirement for a PdS. To eliminate theoretical discussions, as happens too often, I'm looking for the responses of people whose attempt to get a PdS was accepted or rejected on such a basis.

:flypig: :flypig: :flypig: :flypig: :flypig: :flypig: :flypig: :flypig: :flypig: :flypig: :flypig::flypig: :flypig: :flypig: :flypig: :flypig: :flypig: :flypig: :flypig: :flypig: :flypig:


----------



## accbgb

PauloPievese said:


> My _mètier_.
> 
> But perhaps I'm not expressing the question clearly.
> 
> Are regularly scheduled disbursements from an IRA (for this point the amount doesn't matter) acceptable to satisfy any portion of the income requirement for a PdS. To eliminate theoretical discussions, as happens too often, I'm looking for the responses of people whose attempt to get a PdS was accepted or rejected on such a basis.
> 
> :flypig: :flypig: :flypig: :flypig: :flypig: :flypig: :flypig: :flypig: :flypig: :flypig: :flypig::flypig: :flypig: :flypig: :flypig: :flypig: :flypig: :flypig: :flypig: :flypig: :flypig:


Many consulates have reportedly said "no" to any question regarding "savings" whether regularly scheduled withdrawals or not. The reason being, as one consulate once told someone (you can find it if you search hard enough), "You might go to Monte Carlo casino and lose all of your savings in one night!"

The one thing that might work is if you converted your IRA into a fixed and unmodifiable annuity.


----------



## PauloPievese

accbgb said:


> Many consulates have reportedly said "no" to any question regarding "savings" ....


Did this happen to you personally?

:flypig:


----------



## accbgb

PauloPievese said:


> Did this happen to you personally?
> 
> :flypig:


I don't require a visa as I have dual citizenship.

However this board and others (https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/italiancitizenship/) are littered with examples of people denied visas in the face of what most would consider significant income streams.


----------



## PauloPievese

*Litter*

Thank you for that. The board of course seems quite relevant. However I did't find any way to search it. I therefore tried this search on Google:
site:www.tapatalk.com/groups/italiancitizenship ira​but all the "hits" were about taxation not PdS.

Any suggestions about how to find the posts you reference among the litter?

:flypig:


----------



## accbgb

PauloPievese said:


> Thank you for that. The board of course seems quite relevant. However I did't find any way to search it. I therefore tried this search on Google:
> site:www.tapatalk.com/groups/italiancitizenship ira​but all the "hits" were about taxation not PdS.
> 
> Any suggestions about how to find the posts you reference among the litter?
> 
> :flypig:


Magnifying glass at the top of the page.

Also, try this forum: https://www.expatexchange.com/italy/liveinitaly.html

There are some very extensive threads there regarding ER visas and requirements.


----------



## PauloPievese

Searching tapatalk for "ira" apparently returns all tax questions; nothing that I saw re PdS.
Expatexchange wouldn't permit a search for "ira". I saw nothing relevant re "permsso di soggiorno".

Not trying to be a smartass here. I'm sure that there's relevant material if only because it's so obvious. I just can't find it.
:flypig:


----------



## NickZ

Why are you searching for PDS information? You need the visa first. Search IRA AND Visa.


----------



## PauloPievese

*Negatory*



NickZ said:


> Why are you searching for PDS information? You need the visa first. Search IRA AND Visa.


Good idea but that returns two hits, both about making _contributions _to an IRA not about periodic _withdrawals _not counting towards the income requirement.

I would give this up were it not for the statement that this board is rife with references to posts on this topic. I'm sure I'm doing something wrong. 

Now that I look at it this board is about Italian Citizenship and described "Help for people of Italian descent looking to obtain dual citizenship _jure sanguinis_ or through marriage". I'll look for a related board on elective residency and search there.

:der:


----------



## NickZ

https://www.cameraitacina.com/uploa...DENCE VISAS AND LONGTERM TOURIST VISAS(1).pdf

That's the closest to an official source I can find. Annuities are mentioned. €31k per year in income.

Various third party sources also mention annuities.


----------



## rsetzer99

It will be nearly impossible to get you a definitive answer. To grant an Elective Residence visa, the consulates place by far the most weight on guaranteed income streams. They will know full well that set periodic withdrawals from an IRA can be changed at the owners whim. They will treat this as they treat people with a pile of money in the bank. A lovely backup, but not the assurance they are looking for. You will not find this documented in any way as the consulates guard their ability to make decisions based on how they feel about the applicant. Lately a number of regions in Italy are showing signs of immigrant fatigue. Not just the boat people from Africa, but foreigners with B&B dreams in their eyes have really pushed up the prices in Tuscany and Umbria. Every restaurant has reprinted their menus with English subtitles. Meanwhile other regions are slowly dying out with small towns full of for sale signs of old family homes. Immigration here is also a mixed blessing. Too often the immigrants buy piles of bricks outside the town itself and spend all their time and money fixing it up themselves. They don't make much effort to integrate, shop in the cheap Eurospin markets in the nearest larger town and despite initial declaration of intention, quickly abandon efforts to learn more than pigeon Italian.


----------



## PauloPievese

rsetzer99 said:


> They ...despite initial declaration of intention, quickly abandon efforts to learn more than pigeon Italian.


By which I imagine you mean pidgin Italian. Keep practicing your English; you'll eventually get better at it.

:flypig:


----------



## palomalou

NickZ said:


> You can apply for an elective visa but you will need A LOT of savings. They like pension income because it's safe.


Nick, could you define “A LOT”? Thanks!


----------



## accbgb

palomalou said:


> NickZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> You can apply for an elective visa but you will need A LOT of savings. They like pension income because it's safe.
> 
> 
> 
> Nick, could you define “A LOT”? Thanks!
Click to expand...

Think one million+ with the number getting progressively higher the younger you are.

Since you are forbidden to earn an income of any kind, through any means, that involves any form of work (yes, that includes running a website, writing/selling a book, making and selling crafts, etc.), the savings need to be enough to greatly exceed the possible expense of living to a very old age.


----------



## palomalou

accbgb said:


> Think one million+ with the number getting progressively higher the younger you are.
> 
> Since you are forbidden to earn an income of any kind, through any means, that involves any form of work (yes, that includes running a website, writing/selling a book, making and selling crafts, etc.), the savings need to be enough to greatly exceed the possible expense of living to a very old age.


Thank you SO MUCH! Gives me a start on an idea. I really didn't know even exponentially what we were talking about--$70K? $700K? $7M?


----------



## Anna_Magnani

Layla_38 said:


> Hm, you have me thinking... but like you said there are no guarantees on it... Seems ridiculous, right, that other countries tell you as long as you have at the least an equal amount per month as the country's minimum wage, you can get a residence permit.
> 
> I find this evasive "amount" required from Italy to be elitist and stuck up - especially when I KNOW the cost of living in places like Sicily (where I've spent extensive amounts of time on and off throughout the years) and it damn sure is nowhere near what they seem to require for a residence permit. Once I called the embassy in the US to inquire about this and they couldn't even give me an amount, they said "figure 85 euro a day" - WHAT? The Sicilians themselves have told me if they had money like that they would be living like kings. So I cannot understand. It seems absolutely ludicrous.
> 
> I myself am even of Italian origin, but can't go the dual citizenship route because, as I was told, my G. Grandfather joined the army when he came to the US before my GF was born, thus they say it's implied that he announced his Italian citizenship. But that's another headache to discuss.
> 
> Thanks for your reply btw  . Sorry - this subject and the insanity of it all gets me a bit heated.
> 
> I just don't get it.


The route is via ascertaining he was naturalized and when. 
https://dualusitalian.com/welcome/units/naturalization-documents/

My grandfather naturalized in 1940 and he didn't become a soldier. I'm certain it was because the war was full blown and Italians were the enemy.


----------

