# Demolish crappy outbuilding stuck to nice barn



## philthompson23

Hi all,

part of the property I have purchased is a nice old barn. Unfortunately someone built a really crappy little brick rabbit hutch thing with asbestos roof (see pic in link below)

obviously I want to remove. I know I’ll need to deal with the roof specially and pay a company unless I’m allowed to pull down and have it collected by the Marie.

my question is so I need a demolition permis for this small structure?

image0


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## Bevdeforges

Your best bet is to ask at the mairie. Especially if that roof IS asbestos, you'll need authorization if only to assure that the stuff is properly disposed of.


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## LFBEUSTON

philthompson23 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> part of the property I have purchased is a nice old barn. Unfortunately someone built a really crappy little brick rabbit hutch thing with asbestos roof (see pic in link below)
> 
> obviously I want to remove. I know I’ll need to deal with the roof specially and pay a company unless I’m allowed to pull down and have it collected by the Marie.
> 
> my question is so I need a demolition permis for this small structure?
> 
> image0


If you can remove the asbestos yourself without needing to splinter or shave it then why not? Asbestos is dangerous in it's fibre form but not in its solid form You can save the cost of a company removing it though will have to pay have it disposed of. If it is a roof it should be in sections that have been drilled and screwed. Wear gloves and a mask if you are concerned but I would do the work myself. Disposing of it is another thing!! A tip won't accept it.


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## philthompson23

What about demolishing the overall structure? Do I need permission?


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## LFBEUSTON

philthompson23 said:


> What about demolishing the overall structure? Do I need permission?


Personally I think it a matter of scale! If it is a huge building that may be the case, I don't know. However I have demolished several large sheds and outbuildings without giving it a thought. I have never had a complaint or even a mention from my neighbours regarding the legalities of getting rid of something. Building something, yes; even a shed needs some sort of permission but getting rid of something as small as you describe, I wouldn't give it a thought, down it would come!!


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## BackinFrance

philthompson23 said:


> What about demolishing the overall structure? Do I need permission?


Check with your Mairie, but from the photo I would think so.


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## LFBEUSTON

LFBEUSTON said:


> Personally I think it a matter of scale! If it is a huge building that may be the case, I don't know. However I have demolished several large sheds and outbuildings without giving it a thought. I have never had a complaint or even a mention from my neighbours regarding the legalities of getting rid of something. Building something, yes; even a shed needs some sort of permission but getting rid of something as small as you describe, I wouldn't give it a thought, down it would come!!


I have just seen the photo, didn't look earlier. It is nothing!! Once the asbestos is taken off it is a 'five minute job' No one is going to be interested in you getting rid of that.


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## LFBEUSTON

LFBEUSTON said:


> I have just seen the photo, didn't look earlier. It is nothing!! Once the asbestos is taken off it is a 'five minute job' No one is going to be interested in you getting rid of that.


Just one caveat!!! I presume the 'crappy' little thing isn't a structural support for the barn roof? If it is then yes, a builder would need to be in involved but if it is just 'tacked ' on to the side, get rid of it!!


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## BackinFrance

Phil, in your situation I would opt to do everything as legally as possible. And I assume that you have seen a notaire about your marriage régime etc with regard to who gets what (I don't believe you have ever mentioned children, but just in case one of you dies or you one day opt to separate or divorce, it is arguably best to be prepared (not least because you were able to buy because your wife was I believe one of the heirs, plus you likely did not go the usual route for purchasing a property).


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## LFBEUSTON

There's something not being said here!!! The question of demolishing a small outhouse with an asbestos roof has somehow morphed into marriage, dependant children and inheritance! What is, if there is, any connection between knocking down a derelict out-house and all this stuff about marriage?


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## philthompson23

all good advice is welcome. He’s right, I want to do things legally. Ideally don’t want to be in the position of saying “matey on the forum said it was fine so I done it guv’

will take pictures and book an appointment with the Marie. Just wondered if anyone here had any experience removing stuff like this. Don’t know what the minimum I’m requirements are before needing ‘Permis to demolish’


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## Bevdeforges

Just for your information, when it comes to building permits, the "threshold" seems to be a building of 20 m2. Below that size, you don't need a building *permit *but you do need to file a building *declaration*. When we put up our little barn for the donkeys, we kept it just under 20 m2, but it seemed to us like we still had to file the same sorts of documentation they would have asked for for a permit - architect drawings, indicating positioning on the lot, etc. And the mairie came back a few times with questions or requests for more info or documents. 

There is no reason to think that the documents are any different for a demolition permit. And anyhow, making the attempt to do things by the book always serves to get you into the good graces of the mairie and those who work within it.


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## BackinFrance

There are advantages to going through the proper channels. Depending where you live, such structures can incur taxe foncière for example (or may be subjected to it at some future time).


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## conky2

Someone put 'Ken' out of his misery.........


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## BackinFrance

Bevdeforges said:


> Just for your information, when it comes to building permits, the "threshold" seems to be a building of 20 m2. Below that size, you don't need a building *permit *but you do need to file a building *declaration*. When we put up our little barn for the donkeys, we kept it just under 20 m2, but it seemed to us like we still had to file the same sorts of documentation they would have asked for for a permit - architect drawings, indicating positioning on the lot, etc. And the mairie came back a few times with questions or requests for more info or documents.
> 
> There is no reason to think that the documents are any different for a demolition permit. And anyhow, making the attempt to do things by the book always serves to get you into the good graces of the mairie and those who work within it.


Just for info, it is 15 square metres where I live even if there is no slab and no floor, and for some things it is considerably less. 15 square metres seems to be the standard size for a carport or garage here. But here they even consider a tiny covered entry. Clearly it varies depending on where you live. I have 2 x 15 square mètre garages, neither of which originally formed part of my property, the taxe fonciere is considerable. I rent one out for a decent monthly sum, but that has become unsustainable with income tax, taxe foncière and maintenance, so I plan to sell it at the end of the current lease. I may even remove a 1.5 mètre by 2'5 mètre rear glassed in véranda due to the TF and the fact that it is pretty useless anyway.


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## philthompson23

LFBEUSTON said:


> He isn't talking about building!!! >>>>>>>>>>>Are people afraid of their, own shadows?


Lol, yeah I’m not interested in building so not sure why I’m getting such off topic answers.


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## BackinFrance

BackinFrance said:


> There are advantages to going through the proper channels. Depending where you live, such structures can incur taxe foncière for example (or may be subjected to it at some future time).


Is this off topic?


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## BackinFrance

So that's settled. Bye bye.


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## philthompson23

Are you ok?


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## LFBEUSTON

philthompson23 said:


> Lol, yeah I’m not interested in building so not sure why I’m getting such off topic answers.


Exactly!!! Knock it down, you have nothing to worry about.


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## philthompson23

LFBEUSTON said:


> Exactly!!! Knock it down, you have nothing to worry about.


i Can see the shape of that little building on the cadastre though. Doesn’t that mean something?


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## LFBEUSTON

You won't if you knock it down!!


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## philthompson23

But if I look on the cadastre online map I see the little **** building and the line makes the shape of it. I’m scared that if I knock it down one day if I sell someone will say what happened to that and call the police


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## LFBEUSTON

philthompson23 said:


> But if I look on the cadastre online map I see the little **** building and the line makes the shape of it. I’m scared that if I knock it down one day if I sell someone will say what happened to that and call the police


Don't knock it down then!!! Then you have nothing to fear!!!!


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## philthompson23

LFBEUSTON said:


> Don't knock it down then!!! Then you have nothing to fear!!!!


I was just hoping someone else in my situation had removed a similar type structure without filling in a ‘Permis to demolir’ form. I’m well aware as a human with free will I can burn my house down at my leisure. Just wanted you I know if I face potential legal issues for going your cowboy route. Better safe than sorry no?


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## LFBEUSTON

No problem at all. My 'cowboy route' has been quite satisfactory for me I didn't even know there was a 'permit to demolish' form!! There is if it is a building of some special interest or architectural significance but I doubt that covers your tacked on shed!! I have already told you I have knocked down, demolished or otherwise removed several small buildings, all without a problem though you apparently haven't read it!! No one in officialdom is interested with regards your shed. If you so concerned you will be deported or sent to Devils Island for knocking it down, then yes, I would go to the Marie, the Police, Gendarmerie and even a letter to Mr Macron asking if it is o.k. 'better safe than sorry'!!


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## suein56

This website is helpful .. Démolition sans permis de démolir

It is not always necessary to obtain permission to demolish .. it all depends.
In my view the easiest thing to do would be to ask at the Mairie for their advice .. local laws can vary.
You never know the original owners might have put this construction up illegally.
In which case you might be asked to take it down 😉


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## philthompson23

Hahahaha 😂 to be fair you do live in Sangatte calais right? So they’re used to shanty structures being removed I guess 😂


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## Bevdeforges

What I don't get is all the Sturm und Drang over the matter. Go, talk to the mairie and ask them if you need a demolition permit or not. France is a whole bunch more regulated than the UK and some other places, but honestly, if there is no permit required, they're going to tell you about it. And if the addition was illegally put up, they'll actually be happy that you want to take the thing down - permit or no permit. It's not a big deal.


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## Crabtree

Being gung ho never works in France.For the sake of a quick trip to the Mairie with a couple of photos and a copy of the cadastral plan you will save yourself a whole load of future problems.If it is shown on the cadastral plan it will remain on there until the paper work says it has been demolished.If you come to sell and there is something on the plan that is not there then alarm bells will ring.Plus if you stick your head over the parapet you will find that it will be shot off because if you do something illegally then you will be on the radar so just ignore people who tell you just to do things and check first.


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## Befuddled

I would venture to guess that more than half the small outbuildings, shed, animal shelters, etc. that are found all over France were put up without permission in order to avoid the various charges that might result. There are two images indicated on my cadastral plan showing buildings that were once there in the past. There was a car sized lean-to on the back of the house that was removed just before I bought the place. The sellers removed it to avoid having to answer questions about it being built without permission. I would love to have it today but if I were to rebuild it, with the proper permissions it would be flagged up for tax fonciere reassessment (that hasn't been update for decades). This is France.


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## Bevdeforges

Just one further consideration in all this. I don't know if this is a France-wide thing or just here in Ile de France, but over the last several months there seems to be a rather concerted effort on the part of town and departemental authorities to combat the illegal dumping of construction waste. This isn't limited to do-it-yourself projects, but involves contractors who are looking to avoid the recycling center charges, or those who arrive at the centers when they are closed, etc.








Focus - Oceans of waste: French citizens take action to identify fly-tipping culprits


In 2020, over a million tonnes of waste were illegally dumped in the French countryside. Fly-tipping is an ever-growing problem in France, as dishonest businesses try to reduce costs by throwing construction…




www.france24.com




Knowing that the addition has an asbestos roof, you do want to be very careful that whoever gets rid of the waste from the demolition does NOT dump the stuff in the woods or a field or somewhere else they are not supposed to dump it. Yeah, it costs a bit more to do things legally, but if you get "caught" it could get very very expensive very quickly.

Ask at the mairie what you need to do.


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## Befuddled

I'm wondering how many French people will decide to dig up all the old asbestos roofing sheets they've buried in the garden. My first house here came with nearly a metre of general junk of all kinds spread over a wide area, many square metres. I would like to think this was because the very poor family that had lived in it for generations didn't have access to a public tip. Needless to say I little by little shifted ever last piece to the official dechetterie just down the road. Had I come across any asbestos I would have been tempted to look the other way. The charge for professional removal is eye watering.


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## SPGW

Looking at the photo, if I were owner, I would just do it. You rightly mention the sticking point will be asbestos disposal. I'm not aware from properties in France I have owned that there is any obligation to maintain buildings as per the plan cadastral, and generally a _permis de démolir_ is needed only if you are demolishing to rebuild differently. Without upkeep, constructions deteriorate - you can just accelerate the deterioration, it's yours.
(But as mentioned by others, it all depends. Ask a "what if" question at the mairie to avoid any commitment).


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## LFBEUSTON

SPGW said:


> Looking at the photo, if I were owner, I would just do it. You rightly mention the sticking point will be asbestos disposal. I'm not aware from properties in France I have owned that there is any obligation to maintain buildings as per the plan cadastral, and generally a _permis de démolir_ is needed only if you are demolishing to rebuild differently. Without upkeep, constructions deteriorate - you can just accelerate the deterioration, it's yours.
> (But as mentioned by others, it all depends. Ask a "what if" question at the mairie to avoid any commitment).


Just do it, as I did. People are frightened of their own shadow . Why ask any questions? Just go and ask the Mairie! Quite pathetic that people can't behave in a positive way without being 'allowed to!' To start an argument, perhaps, what's the matter with people these days ? Are they so so weak as to take on any responsibility them selves? I'm surprised they have taken the "enormous step' and actually moved to France; !!!


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## philthompson23

A


Befuddled said:


> I'm wondering how many French people will decide to dig up all the old asbestos roofing sheets they've buried in the garden. My first house here came with nearly a metre of general junk of all kinds spread over a wide area, many square metres. I would like to think this was because the very poor family that had lived in it for generations didn't have access to a public tip. Needless to say I little by little shifted ever last piece to the official dechetterie just down the road. Had I come across any asbestos I would have been tempted to look the other way. The charge for professional removal is eye watering.





LFBEUSTON said:


> Just do it, as I did. People are frightened of their own shadow . Why ask any questions? Just go and ask the Mairie! Quite pathetic that people can't behave in a positive way without being 'allowed to!' To start an argument, perhaps, what's the matter with people these days ? Are they so so weak as to take on any responsibility them selves? I'm surprised they have taken the "enormous step' and actually moved to France; !!!



dunno anything about france. Could be like lighting a spliff in Dubai for all I know


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## LFBEUSTON

philthompson23 said:


> A
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dunno anything about france. Could be like lighting a spliff in Dubai for all I know


Well go build stand castles then!!


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## philthompson23

LFBEUSTON said:


> Well go build stand castles then!!


Can you please keep this on topic. Never asked about building


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## LFBEUSTON

philthompson23 said:


> Can you please keep this on topic. Never asked about building


You have been discredited anyway! have you decided to knock down your shed yet or are you still in never never land?


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## philthompson23

Yeah I’m knocking it down, to hell with everyone. It’s my ****ing shed after all


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## Bevdeforges

LFBEUSTON said:


> You have been discredited anyway! have you decided to knock down your shed yet or are you still in never never land?


You know actually no one here on the forum is under any sort of obligation to tell us what they decided on after receiving all our "expert"(??) advice. If you are only here to argue and be unpleasant, please take it over to Twitter. I understand Elon is desperate to keep his little impulse purchase running. <eg>


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## philthompson23

W


LFBEUSTON said:


> Exactly!!! Knock it down, you have nothing to worry about.


So I got a mail back from the Marie:
If I had listened to you old chap when coming to sell my house I could have been in serious legal jeopardy!!

see response


Bonjour,

Le petit bâtiment en brique figurant sur le cadastre et se situant en zone urbaine, un permis de démolir devra être déposé en mairie avant de procéder à sa démolition.
Vous trouverez ci-joint le CERFA relatif à la demande du permis de démolir. Le dossier sera à rapporter en mairie en 4 exemplaires lorsque vous l’aurez complété.

Concernant l’amiante, la commune ne propose pas de service de retrait de feuilles d’amiante.

Cordialement.


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## Crabtree

There you go "Piece of Paper Man" strikes again.📋


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## philthompson23

Crabtree said:


> There you go "Piece of Paper Man" strikes again.📋


I know you think ignoring the law makes you a ‘bad ass’ or something on this forum but it’s imperative people are not fed lies which could lead to legal peril


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## conky2

You received similar comment from the moderator of another forum you infest. Wind your neck in.


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## philthompson23

Let’s all be friends yeah


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## LFBEUSTON

philthompson23 said:


> Let’s all be friends yeah


Of course. 'Tis the season to be jolly after all!


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## Poloss

philthompson23 said:


> Concernant l’amiante, la commune ne propose pas de service de retrait


Check the déchetteries in larger towns; where we lived before, the main one accepted roofing and tubing containing asbestos. You load it and tip it


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## Crabtree

I do hope that the comment about being a "badass" was not directed at me .If so an apology is in order as I have always encouraged people to do things the right way and have stressed the importance of pieces of paper in France
I am also concerned that others including the moderator of this forum liked that comment.
I am now leaving this forum


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## Lalla

Crabtree said:


> I do hope that the comment about being a "badass" was not directed at me .If so an apology is in order as I have always encouraged people to do things the right way and have stressed the importance of pieces of paper in France
> I am also concerned that others including the moderator of this forum liked that comment.
> I am now leaving this forum


Hi, my like was really for the comment about not encouraging people to go against regulations, which could lead them into trouble - I don't think you're the one on this thread doing that. I've had to wade through enough baloney myself trying to find out the correct way of doing things. I'd be delighted for you to continue helping people with the correct information, and for those speaking guff to pipe down instead 👍


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## BackinFrance

Lalla said:


> Hi, my like was really for the comment about not encouraging people to go against regulations, which could lead them into trouble - I don't think you're the one on this thread doing that. I've had to wade through enough baloney myself trying to find out the correct way of doing things. I'd be delighted for you to continue helping people with the correct information, and for those speaking guff to pipe down instead 👍


I think I was also one of those who liked the comment, and it was for the same reason as you.


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## Bevdeforges

Ooh, I think we've hacked this subject to death. Time to wrap up the "discussion."


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