# education Spain v UK etc



## kathyd55 (Jun 6, 2010)

DavidO said:


> This is a little off-topic but I can't help commenting on things I see here and in similar posts. I'll still contribute to the OP's topic of Brits returning home a little further down.
> 
> My wife and I divide our time between Spain and the U.K. The plan is England in the warmer months and Spain for the colder months, although it doesn't always work out like that!
> 
> ...


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

thrax said:


> Quite an interesting thread wot I started. We are moving to Spain on 1st September this year (well I am and the wife tells me she will be following on 4th September
> 
> If we decide to stay in Spain, I have no worries about the Spanish education system, after all, the one we have here in the UK is not really that good with more than 50% of kids leaving without being able to construct a sentence or do any useful maths (CBI figures, not mine). My youngest daughter (nearly 22) needed a Grade C in maths to get into the dance school she wanted to go to (yes, odd, why does a dancer need to do maths?) but after the exam we had floods of tears as she couldn't answer a single question. Not one question answered. She got a C.
> 
> ...


Well, hope everything goes well once you get here, you've certainly done enough planning.

Agree about the education. I have 4 nephews of which one might have a couple of GCSEs. Grade C for nothing! Amazing isn't it??

The light? Well my inlaws all remark on the light here. They live in Bilbao and we're near Madrid which is famous for it's clear blue skies (except for this week when they are decididly black. Today I have long sleeves on and SOCKS!!) Perhaps the light improves from Madrid down.

And cream - double, clotted whatever - you'll miss it! Although there was a cooking thread on here not so long ago where I said the Spanish cream really isn't so bad - but where are the fresh cream cakes??!!


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## NorthernLass (Nov 9, 2009)

thrax said:


> Quite an interesting thread wot I started. We are moving to Spain on 1st September this year (well I am and the wife tells me she will be following on 4th September but I don't think she mentioned the year...) and of course we are very excited about it. We've been planning the move for about 5 years so it hasn't beeen a decision taken lightly. We know that a sunny day can brighten the mood (well it does in the UK coz they are so rare) but it doesn't make a life.
> 
> What will we miss about Blighty? Well my wife reckons I will miss pubs but since my beer drinking days are behind me (at 400 calories a pint I have to avoid it) I hardly ever frequent them nowadays. I love London and always will and I will always have a soft spot for Cornwall and Cumbria but that really is about it. And of course the idea of going to London for a holiday is wonderful. We would probably see more shows and concerts in a week than we do in a year or more whilst living here. My wife's parents (my outlaws) live near Torre del Mar so it makes sense for her to be nearer them especially now we have a new son.
> 
> ...


The spanish education system worries me !!

It is in a right mess...and needs to get with the times. And a good size proportion drop out too without any qualifications. 

A good school in the Uk is far far better than what's in Spain. 

Don't expect the spanish system to be better,,,it's just different.

Two of my kids are quite smart and are top of the class. Now if a foreign child joins a class and is top and smarter than the natives,,what does it say of the standards ? 

Just my experience. There is not much in the way of variety or creativity, no drama - all quite boring in comparison.


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

I agree that standards seem to be dropping everywhere. In the uK a lot of that drop has been put down to league tables and forcing teachers to focus on anything but teaching. A lot of our friends are teachers (some are heads) and without doubt they all believe the education system in the UK is at an appalling all time low. But of course there are still good schools, a lot of them independant. As I said in another post, what the Spanish schools miss out on I can hopefully make it up coz I am old and had a good education and know a lot of stuff lol


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## fourgotospain (May 4, 2009)

Is that secondary Northern Lass?? In primary here it's ALL about creativity and variety! They've been on the most amazing school trips - the Palace of Music in Valencia, boat trips from Altea, trips to the beach etc. They have been set designing and painting for the end of term show that the Infantil and 1/2 ciclo are doing next week. They do sport/rollerblading/dance/drama 3-4 times a week - in short it is everything a primary education should be - rounding out the whole child socially, emotionally and physically as well as intellectually - and what's sadly missing in the UK now thanks to OFSTED's blundering and lockdown mentality.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

fourgotospain said:


> Is that secondary Northern Lass?? In primary here it's ALL about creativity and variety! They've been on the most amazing school trips - the Palace of Music in Valencia, boat trips from Altea, trips to the beach etc. They have been set designing and painting for the end of term show that the Infantil and 1/2 ciclo are doing next week. They do sport/rollerblading/dance/drama 3-4 times a week - in short it is everything a primary education should be - rounding out the whole child socially, emotionally and physically as well as intellectually - and what's sadly missing in the UK now thanks to OFSTED's blundering and lockdown mentality.


that's what I thought - maybe it's a north/halfway down the coast divide!!

even in secondary school my 14 year old does creative stuff -she's made clocks, mosaics & all sorts in technology - even a scratching post for the cats

in music she's played different instruments

in sport lots of different sports - a good rounded education


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## kathyd (May 28, 2007)

*good to know*

that is really good to know as my 2 daughters are going out to a private school this september.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

kathyd said:


> that is really good to know as my 2 daughters are going out to a private school this september.


fourgotospain & I are talking about state school


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## NorthernLass (Nov 9, 2009)

It obviously depends on the school and the area.

I can only give me experience of what they had in the UK and what is here as a comparison. 

I intercambio with a wife of one of the teachers and she tells me what its really like so I have a better idea of what's going on. 

My main point is that Spain isn't better, just different. I hope that it improves but I can see more cut backs and strikes will affect the education system.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

NorthernLass said:


> It obviously depends on the school and the area.
> 
> I can only give me experience of what they had in the UK and what is here as a comparison.
> 
> ...


I've been here too long to be able to compare with the UK - except when I teach maths/do homework help with new English kids

I have no idea if it's better or just different - except I know for sure that in our area maths is at least a year ahead of the UK

I have no real complaints about the education my kids are getting - it's not perfect - but I doubt it would be anywhere - even if we were paying a fortune for it!


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## kathyd (May 28, 2007)

I think there will be a large varience between schools even within countries.Depending on the management and how the school is run the ethos of the school will be set .
Personally I have found being a teacher in S.Africa and one in N.Ireland to be an enlightening experience.
N.Ireland prides itself on having one of the best education systems in the UK [So they say} but I hold myself back in discussions on the subject as one has to ask oneself on what variables do you judge an Education system?
Do you judge it on marks and numbers going to university [probably] ,do you judge it on bringing up well rounded ,balanced and creative children, or do you judge it on its release of independant and globally minded individuals who want to make a differance.
The schools in S.Africa were wonderful. The kids really well mannered and respectful and very representative of thier school. They were multinational and as a result tolerant of other races and religions. yes ...S.Africa believe it or not .
Then I come back to the Uk where in some schools the students tell the teachers to F..... o. Where if you have not got the work done it is someone esles fault and sure what are you going to do about it anyway..you cannot touch me and I have my rights.
Is it me or is the Uk education system losing the plot?
Oh yeh ..do you also know that noone is allowed to fail?
Everyone must be in education and sure the government will pay you to stay. So lie around all week but make sure you get your documents signed so that you have the money to get blocked at the weekend .
If I sound cynical its because I have taught in the Uk for the last 9 years and I have also taught in other countries so I can compare to what I have experienced before. Maybe Spain is somewhere in between who knows but as a teacher myself I have decided to move my children from the system. who knows if I am right or wrong...only time will tell.


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## lynn (Sep 25, 2008)

kathyd said:


> I think there will be a large varience between schools even within countries.Depending on the management and how the school is run the ethos of the school will be set .
> Personally I have found being a teacher in S.Africa and one in N.Ireland to be an enlightening experience.
> N.Ireland prides itself on having one of the best education systems in the UK [So they say} but I hold myself back in discussions on the subject as one has to ask oneself on what variables do you judge an Education system?
> Do you judge it on marks and numbers going to university [probably] ,do you judge it on bringing up well rounded ,balanced and creative children, or do you judge it on its release of independant and globally minded individuals who want to make a differance.
> ...


Oh dear, you do paint a very bleak picture of the UK state education system Kathy. Personally, we were unbelievably happy with the state education my three were receiving in the UK. It was one of the few things that was a wrench to leave! My children were doing really well at school, and the facilities and quality of teaching they were receiving (for free) was fantastic! I will qualify that by saying that we did our research and lived in the catchment of schools with good reputations, and in the case of my eldest, he passed the 11+ and went to grammar school, but all the primaries they went to, and the secondary comprehensive my daughter attended were equally as good and served the whole of the student body well. We wouldn't have countenanced paying for their education if we had remained in the UK, but here we had no other option as they couldn't slot into Spanish state school at their ages.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

kathyd said:


> I think there will be a large varience between schools even within countries.Depending on the management and how the school is run the ethos of the school will be set .
> Personally I have found being a teacher in S.Africa and one in N.Ireland to be an enlightening experience.
> N.Ireland prides itself on having one of the best education systems in the UK [So they say} but I hold myself back in discussions on the subject as one has to ask oneself on what variables do you judge an Education system?
> Do you judge it on marks and numbers going to university [probably] ,do you judge it on bringing up well rounded ,balanced and creative children, or do you judge it on its release of independant and globally minded individuals who want to make a differance.
> ...


With aplologies for not being on topic (if it really annoys you you can unsubscribe from the thread) but I do think this is interesting...

I would agree with you - UK education has definitely lost the plot and I don't know how, 'cos the teachers get far more preperation than the teachers here. And just before anybody says "Why do some Brits abroad always run down the UK???" I'm not putting the Spanish educational system up as the answer to educational problems. Both systems churn out uneducated, ill prepared young adults who are quite often completely unable to cope with today's world


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

I wish I knew how top separate posts from threads, I'll ask "the boss" 

I think the problem with the UK education system is the same as the problem with the health system over there - box ticking!!!! Everything has to be proven and uniformed. Unfortunately kids arent all the same and its no good ticking a box, giving them exams and tests to say that they've all been taught whatever. All that does is cause more paperwork for the teacher oh and shows where the school appears on the league table - which IMO it doesnt, it simply shows how a bunch of kids did in a test on a given day!

So I think thats why education in the UK has lost direction, its not about educating, but about proving its been done. 

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

jojo said:


> I wish I knew how top separate posts from threads, I'll ask "the boss"
> 
> I think the problem with the UK education system is the same as the problem with the health system over there - box ticking!!!! Everything has to be proven and uniformed. Unfortunately kids arent all the same and its no good ticking a box, giving them exams and tests to say that they've all been taught whatever. All that does is cause more paperwork for the teacher oh and shows where the school appears on the league table - which IMO it doesnt, it simply shows how a bunch of kids did in a test on a given day!
> 
> ...


Very good point Jo!

And I really do apologise about encouraging this off topicness, but I think the discussion warrents it.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

jojo said:


> I wish I knew how top separate posts from threads


 OMG, I think I've done it!??! I think I've separated the posts??????? 

Jo xxxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

I'd be interested to know what kind of school you taught at, kathy. I've also worked in the state education system in the UK at principal and class teacher level as well as for a major educational professional association and for Education International, a NGO representing millions of teachers all over the world.
Yes, there are many problems with the current state of education in the UK, in both the state and private sphere. One problem is the dumbing down of the curriculum as reflected in the lower standards of GCSE exams at O and A level. Excessive box-ticking and paperwork is another. 
But to my mind the chief obstacle to quality education is the poor quality of many teachers who are themselves victims of the system they now work in.
True, all teachers now must hold a degree which will be either a BA or Bsc plus PGCE or the B.Ed, a degree with imo very little intellectual content. Some Training Colleges are offering courses in basic literacy and numeracy, so poor are the standards in these subjects of many of the entrants to teacher training courses.
I was responsible for monitoring Newly Qualified Teachers as well as experienced teachers and yes, many were excellent (chiefly the more mature ones, though). But there were more than a few that imo should have been handed their P45 on the spot.
I wish our teacher leaders would be as honest as the past leader of the US teachers union who stated publicly that there were far too many inadequate teachers and that teachers as well as students should be assessed and tested regularly and rigorously.


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## NorthernLass (Nov 9, 2009)

Today, was yet another day at school,...and again another "story".

Most of the kids in my daughters class have gone on a 3 day skiing trip...so there are only a few children in the class. You would think a small class would be easy to manage and teach, yes?.! Well apparently not so: Today, they were left alone for the majority of the day..no teacher to supervise or teach a small class of 11-14year olds. 

The boys all ended up fighting each other, breaking a light fitting and the bulb smashed with glass all over the floor. My daughter says that they did not work at all, all day !!!! 

I asked her also about any exams or tests for next week, as its the final week of school before the holidays. None..because she says that they haven´t even finished the text books yet. 

I am a bit uncertain as to having a skiing trip anyway..OK it´s only three days
(Wednesday till Today). But those three days meant that the other children left in the classes are short of teachers. For the past three days the children have been given sheets of paper to work on which according to my daughter, they didn´t bother doing. Quality teaching???!!!!.... 

Some in her class didn´t even come in for the whole three days. My daughter said that two of the children told the others that he or she was going to ask their parents for a day off....and obviously the parents must of said yes because they didn´t turn up.

This is just one example of the state of teaching in a so'called well off town..

It´s like there are no boundaries or discipline..the kids are ruling the school and doing what they please.

Never experienced the likes in the children´s old primary school...yes this is a primary school not yet teenagers..goodness knows what they will be like then.

Sorry ranting on about this..I know the majority of you have good experiences but I am at a loss with mine. I do supplement their education using Workbooks like Carol Vodermanns Maths etc. 

It´s probably just my school..but I have heard that the other local Primary school is worse...if home schooling was permitted I would do that for my daughter.

One more week to go anyway...then recharge!!


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## kathyd (May 28, 2007)

gosh i am really sorry to hear that the school is that bad. 
Is the primary school linked to a secondary? and what is it like.

Sounds really bad. Is the school mostly english or mixed .Sorry for the questions I am still in the UK and heading out to Spain in August


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

NorthernLass said:


> Today, was yet another day at school,...and again another "story".
> 
> Most of the kids in my daughters class have gone on a 3 day skiing trip...so there are only a few children in the class. You would think a small class would be easy to manage and teach, yes?.! Well apparently not so: Today, they were left alone for the majority of the day..no teacher to supervise or teach a small class of 11-14year olds.
> 
> ...


Northern Lass I'll reply on the other thread, OK?

Duuhh, no i won't. You're ON the right thread, sorry!

Well, that really does sound like a nightmare. It's true that the kids left behind when the others are on a school trip are not always given the best of attention, but that is disgraceful. It certainly deserves an enquiry/ complaint, but I understand that it's nearly the end of the year; is it worth it??? I don't know. It might be if you feel there is no where else for your children to go next year. Is there no where else??

Looks like you'll need to do a LOT of research on the secondary school front to try and find a decent one in your area.

BTW - My experience of primary schools was similar to yours - very little creativity, absolutely no painting or fun stuff, no group work, just get your book out and turn to page XX. The secondary school has been much better although still lacking. However, I don't see anything good coming out of British schools either, but you've got much more experience than I have on that.


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## eloiseb (May 25, 2010)

I think as with most things it comes down to the specific school / personal experience. We personally in the UK moved so kids got in to what was a highly rated state primary school, only to have a nightmare experience for 2 years (endless supply teachers who just "babysat", one of my boys badly bullied etc etc). By contrast we are really pleased with the local school here in Spain. BUT I think that is very specific to the circumstances and partly with our current school down to luck / the current teachers and kids, so unfortunately I think it's always going to be hard to say in a general sense what is better or not, it's going to depend on your own children's experience at any school. 

But I'm already worrying about secondary schools which we will have to decide on in a couple of years.....


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

eloiseb said:


> I think as with most things it comes down to the specific school / personal experience.


Yep, me too. Also a school can be "good"/"bad" for a couple of years, then all the teachers change and it's a completely different school.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yep, me too. Also a school can be "good"/"bad" for a couple of years, then all the teachers change and it's a completely different school.



Alot also depends on the other children in the class. A few disruptive little monsters can spoil the whole class!!

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

It shouldn't be a matter of luck or location whether your child gets a good education or not.
More attention paid to quality teacher training and regular inspection of schools should -in theory - iron out these differences.
But of course the local environment makes a huge difference, not only (sadly and wrongly) to teacher expectations but also to pupils' sense of the value of education in an area with high unemployment and to their own self-esteem.
Training good teachers is easy compared to solving the second problem.
Frankly, I have no idea how to do this. It all comes down to aspiration ....but how do you foster a culture of aspiration?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

mrypg9 said:


> It shouldn't be a matter of luck or location whether your child gets a good education or not.
> More attention paid to quality teacher training and regular inspection of schools should -in theory - iron out these differences.
> But of course the local environment makes a huge difference, not only (sadly and wrongly) to teacher expectations but also to pupils' sense of the value of education in an area with high unemployment and to their own self-esteem.
> Training good teachers is easy compared to solving the second problem.
> Frankly, I have no idea how to do this. It all comes down to aspiration ....but how do you foster a culture of aspiration?



Parenting!!!

Jo xx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> Parenting!!!
> 
> Jo xx



Jo...during the years I spent in education, I became extremely cynical. I have seen parents put their five-year-olds out like the cat. Parents who give their young children money to get chips for their dinner. 'Mothers' who left their young children alone so they could spend the weekend at the local American airbase. 
Very few parents I worked with cared a tuppenny toss about their children's education.
OK, the area I worked in wasn't leafy middle-class suburbia but it wasn't inner-city either. It was worse than some but better than many.
The sad fact is that many parents need as much educating as their children. You and other posters here who take your responsibilities seriously probably cannot imagine how neglectful some parents are.
These young adults who are parents are often as immature as their children.
I honestly don't know how you break this cycle. 
There is a great poem by Philip Larkin, you probably know it, it begins :

'They f*** you up, your mum and dad
They do not mean to but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you'.'

The second verse begins:
'But they were f****d up in their turn..'

and so on. It's worth reading, you'll find it on the net. It's on the GSCE English syllabus.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

"CHILDREN LEARN WHAT THEY LIVE 
If a child lives with criticism, 
He learns to condemn. 
If a child lives with hostility, 
He learns to fight. 
If a child lives with ridicule, 
He learns to be shy. 
If a child lives with jealousy, 
He learns to feel guilty. 
If a child lives with tolerance, 
He learns to be patient. 
If a child lives with encouragement, 
He learns to appreciate. 
If a child lives with praise, 
He learns to appreciate. 
If a child lives with fairness, 
He learns justice. 
If a child lives with security, 
He learns to have faith. 
If a child lives with approval, 
He learns to like himself. 
If a child lives with acceptance and friendship, 
He learns to find life and love in the world."

Dont know who wrote it tho!

Its too easy to have children!

Jo xx


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## NorthernLass (Nov 9, 2009)

kathyd said:


> gosh i am really sorry to hear that the school is that bad.
> Is the primary school linked to a secondary? and what is it like.
> 
> Sounds really bad. Is the school mostly english or mixed .Sorry for the questions I am still in the UK and heading out to Spain in August


Hi 

The school is all spanish except for my children. 

There is only one secondary school in this area and I have to see in September and see who the teacher is and who are her classmates are..that's the determining factor of what's like. I hope that the boys in her class don't move to the secondary with my daughter..:confused2:.

There seems to be the thing for spanish boys to act cool and not learn at this age. Hopefully they will grow out of it and the secondary school will sort them out. Otherwise.....not sure..:confused2:

I don't mean to be so negative about the school but the stories my kids tell me, it makes me really worry about their education and future.

I think the school could do with some new teachers with new ideas..most of them have been at the school since the 80s. They've probably lost interest and become a bit complacent..don't know really. 


Going to have a good think over the holidays.


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## NorthernLass (Nov 9, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Northern Lass I'll reply on the other thread, OK?
> 
> Duuhh, no i won't. You're ON the right thread, sorry!
> 
> ...


Thanks !!

Yes I will have a fair bit of research to do...may have to move...argh!! 

I do have faith in the British system though..the majority of schools are good. It's just that the rubbish schools taint the picture..


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> More attention paid to quality teacher training *and regular inspection of schools should -in theory - iron out these differences*.



Starting this year (at least where I am, and I'm nearly certain it's Spain-wide) secondary teachers now must get a masters in secondary education, which may contribute towards the quality teacher training you're looking for. 

Regarding inspections, I've been in Spanish schools for two years and BOTH years have brought inspections to my schools. It's not a fun time to be in a school!


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## kathyd (May 28, 2007)

mrypg9 said:


> I'd be interested to know what kind of school you taught at, kathy. I've also worked in the state education system in the UK at principal and class teacher level as well as for a major educational professional association and for Education International, a NGO representing millions of teachers all over the world.
> Yes, there are many problems with the current state of education in the UK, in both the state and private sphere. One problem is the dumbing down of the curriculum as reflected in the lower standards of GCSE exams at O and A level. Excessive box-ticking and paperwork is another.
> But to my mind the chief obstacle to quality education is the poor quality of many teachers who are themselves victims of the system they now work in.
> True, all teachers now must hold a degree which will be either a BA or Bsc plus PGCE or the B.Ed, a degree with imo very little intellectual content. Some Training Colleges are offering courses in basic literacy and numeracy, so poor are the standards in these subjects of many of the entrants to teacher training courses.
> ...



For the past 6 years I have been running the Health and Social care at an FE College in N.Ireland. Before that when I came back from S.Africa I did some supply teaching to get myself back into teaching as I had left teaching for 15 years . Worked as manager of Surgical company.

So I was looking at teaching from the perspective of being out of the Industry for a while and also being out of the country.
I have noticed what you mention.... the high emphasis on paperwork and tick boxing and I also have noticed the differance in the standard of teaching between the more mature teachers and the younger ones .
I am off the former!
The younger teachers have been taught to be administrators and in my mind it looks like they are becoming business managers rather than teachers.
Without a doubt the emphasis of what is important has changed and most certainly there are many who should not really be teaching at all.
I became a teacher because I liked to teach and interact with teenagers. I always gauged my effectiveness on how many students felt I had had an influence on the direction of thier lives and I only knew that when they would return to tell me how they were getting on .
I have to admit I never once felt that my status as a teacher should be measured by my form filling expertise yet sadly in the Uk today that is how many teachers feel. Yes I agree that with any position there are administrative tasks but when the balance has tipped between this and ones ability to teach then I do feel it has all gone horribily wrong .

When i came back into the teaching profession after a 15 year break it became very obviously very quickly how undervalued teachers now feel . They are over assesed and put under continual pressure to produce figures and analysis to prove thier worth when all one really has to do is to see if they can teach ...simple really and sometimes I just do not get it.

our college had three inspections this year and because we have done so well they have decided to do a full blown inspection with 15 inspectors resident in the college for three weeks!!! moving from one class to the next.

Guess it keeps them busy.
I see you are in Marbella ..are you teaching there? that is where i am heading this summer to teach.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

kathyd said:


> I see you are in Marbella ..are you teaching there? that is where i am heading this summer to teach.


No, I haven't been at the chalk-face for several years. I don't do anything now apart from the occasional trip to the UK for a conference or seminar.
My partner ran the businesses whilst I worked in education and like you did various other things too. One day we suddenly decided we'd had enough of the rat race and as we had enough to fund the lifestyle we wanted we left the UK three months later. I worked with the MFL team at the Czech National Statistics Office in Prague and commuted to the UK and around Europe for a professional association.
I feel very pessimistic about state and some private education in the UK. I could spend hours telling you want I think is wrong but I'm not so full of ideas for putting things right!
This idea of looking to the Swedish model doesn't hold much appeal as I feel it will lead to unacceptable disparities of standards in different areas.
What kind of school will you be working at?


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## kathyd (May 28, 2007)

I am heading out to a private school in Marbella and to be honest really scared stiff but have decided that right now in our lives we have to have change. My older daughter has had a disastrous year at school here in N.Ireland .She ended up in the lower class in her GCSE year with 5 girls and the rest boys. The class is the worst in the school and the boys are continually disruptive. Her concentration span is not that good so with a disruptive class things went from bad to worse. There were also issues of bullying and it became an absolute nightmare to get her to go to school. The school she was in is a grammar school in Belfast and just the last few months she showed me a phone video of the boys from her class kicking the liven delights out of each other at Lunch time.

When I got offered the position in Marbella I felt that the best thing for us all was to start again somewhere new and so we are heading out this summer.
I have lived in S.Africa for 22 years and have only been back in the Uk for 9 years .I know what it is like to move country and that is probably why I am scarred stiff as I know the challenges that lie ahead.

In the past 9 years I have taught for 8 of them and slowly have become more disillusioned with the system as time went on. When I started my enthusiasm was catching and slowly bit by bit rules and regulations ,health and safety and being politically correct has dulled my creativity where I now feel like a caged rat trying desperately to be set free.

Sounds dramatic but I am sure what Myself and my husband are experiencing is a lack of tolerance for living in a Rat Race and a strong need to move on.


Having said that about moving on... I do realise that nowhere not Spain or The UK or either school is perfect and sometimes the school and the place just hits the right buttons for you and your children and sometimes it does not.

Guess that is something we will find out pretty soon!

great forum by the way!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

kathyd said:


> I am heading out to a private school in Marbella and to be honest really scared stiff but have decided that right now in our lives we have to have change. My older daughter has had a disastrous year at school here in N.Ireland .She ended up in the lower class in her GCSE year with 5 girls and the rest boys. The class is the worst in the school and the boys are continually disruptive. Her concentration span is not that good so with a disruptive class things went from bad to worse. There were also issues of bullying and it became an absolute nightmare to get her to go to school. The school she was in is a grammar school in Belfast and just the last few months she showed me a phone video of the boys from her class kicking the liven delights out of each other at Lunch time.
> 
> When I got offered the position in Marbella I felt that the best thing for us all was to start again somewhere new and so we are heading out this summer.
> I have lived in S.Africa for 22 years and have only been back in the Uk for 9 years .I know what it is like to move country and that is probably why I am scarred stiff as I know the challenges that lie ahead.
> ...


I don't want to offend anyone from Northern Ireland and this is just my subjective impression from a short visit but.....
it was the dreariest, most depressing place I have ever spent time in.
I spoke to a woman who said the first time she ever met what she referred to as a 'person of the opposite religion' was when she went to University.
I thought there was an atmosphere of intolerance and mean-spirited bigotry inspite of all the alleged political progress. Of course not everyone is an intolerant bigot but that was my impression of society as a whole- highly subjective, and not based on much evidence, I'll admit. But that was the impression I got from my thankfully short visit.
Recent events such as the infamous Iris Robinson affair do seem to confirm that opinion, though. She who condemned homosexuality yet had an adulterous relationship and was seemingly elastic in her definition of declaring interests in her position as an elected representative.
Of course we in the rest of the UK can't claim to be free from sin...
Whatever the outcome, you'll find that Spain is a much more cheerful, open society. If school isn't the happy workplace you hope it will be at least you can moan and whinge in nice surroundings and sunshine!
One would hope that parents who pay to have their child educated would ensure that their children work and behave so they get a return on their investment although I know that's not always the case. But you'll have the advantage of that expectation at your new school.
Moving country isn't that bad either if you plan carefully and as you've done it before you know the ropes. Unlike some places, officialdom here isn't too hard to deal with . Spanish people are on the whole happy souls and want you to be happy so they go out of their way to smooth paths for you. That has been our experience anyway. And there's plenty of help to be had from this forum.
Good luck and keep in touch. I'd really like to know how you get on.


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## kathyd (May 28, 2007)

mrypg9 said:


> I don't want to offend anyone from Northern Ireland and this is just my subjective impression from a short visit but.....
> it was the dreariest, most depressing place I have ever spent time in.
> I spoke to a woman who said the first time she ever met what she referred to as a 'person of the opposite religion' was when she went to University.
> I thought there was an atmosphere of intolerance and mean-spirited bigotry inspite of all the alleged political progress. Of course not everyone is an intolerant bigot but that was my impression of society as a whole- highly subjective, and not based on much evidence, I'll admit. But that was the impression I got from my thankfully short visit.
> ...



Well MRYPG9 I would like to thank-you for helping me feel I have made the correct decision .
Although I originally came from N.Ireland in that I was born here i actually left when I was 11 years old. My father was a Vet and moved to work in Uganda .Myself and brothers went too and after a few years had to come back to Boarding school .Being at boarding school in a place and living in a place are 2 differant things. All our Holidays were in Africa and so when I finished my university and taught in N.Ireland for a few years off I headed back to Africa.

Now after living all those years overseas we came back here becasue of the crime situation in S.Africa and I have found it hard to settle in .
Your words ring true when you say despite the so called "political progress" there is still an underlying bigotry and something that crops up in my kids school every now and then .
Although I have an Irish accent my attitude and outlook on life are totally alien to most of the people that live here. The insularism of the place is mind numbing and drags you down to constant wonderings of "What the heck am I doing here"

When I was offered the position in Spain it was interesting the comments from people around me .Many of them feel it is just a huge risk I am taking and moving the kids from school etc etc. underneath it all I feel they cannot understand why on earth I would want to leave.!!!!

For everything that is before us the one aspect for me that is important is the way my children grow up .I would prefer them to be among people from differant nationalities and to develop a sense of tolerance towards other religions and points of view. For that reason I feel that I am making the right decision and hope that with them being 14 and 15 I am not too late.

Yes this is an exceedingly dreary place,a place where people constantly moan and spend most of thier time visiting the Doctor.
The one advantage of being here this last 9 years is that wherever we go it can only get better!

Thank-you for helping me feel good about our move.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

kathyd said:


> Thank-you for helping me feel good about our move.


Well, that's really nice. I'm normally a miserable sod with tendencies to 'upset' people. I tend to see all the disadvantages which I suppose is better than ploughing on regardless.
Main positives are a) you have work and I'm sure you know that it's much easier to find employment once you actually have a job. So you can use your time to settle in and get the 'feel' of how things work and b) you are already internationally-minded and very well-travelled. Personally, I can't see why you need to feel 'scared'. You have huge advantages over people who haven't travelled much and who know other countries only through fortnightly holidays with everrything arranged for them.
I went to Prague wanting to do as little work as possible -I was commuting each week to the UK -but people kept asking me to give private lessons and such-like and I eventually got a really nice 'job' at the Statistics Office -it was more of a social occasion, really. I'm sure you'll find the same.
Then, as your children get older, you will be able to be more mobile. There's an old Jewish saying 'Trees have roots, people have legs'. Loads more places for you to try and teaching skills are hugely portable. 
Marbella is as different from Belfast as......I can't think of a fitting comparison!
I do think it's important to have your familiar things with you, though, which is why we carted our goods and chattels around Europe. I like waking up in Spain in the same bed I slept in in Prague.
But that's just me and as I said I'm cautious, small c conservative and don't really like change.
But then I also love the stimulation of new places and ways of life and the challenges of learning new stuff so that part of me gets the upper hand....fortunately!
Keep in touch - you can always pm me.


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## kathyd (May 28, 2007)

Maybe its becauuse I had that expat lifestyle as a child growing up that it is what I know the best and feel at home with .
I like to have friends from other countries and as you say it makes life much more interesting.
Incidently as pertains to N.Ireland I heard my daughters friend ask my daughter if this boy she had met was a Protestant?..... as I stood in the office lisening to the conversation about what religion this boy was I felt really good .good because in 4 weeks time we are on a way to Spain and out of this religious bigotry...that still exists.

i know this is probably not the right thread but we have booked a Holiday place in Mijas and it looks like we have an offer of a renovated house in Ojen .
From what I have been told Ojen is easy acess to Swans and a very nice village for famalies. 
Would it be ok for teenagers?


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## geez (Apr 4, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> The light? Well my inlaws all remark on the light here. They live in Bilbao and we're near Madrid which is famous for it's clear blue skys (except for this week when they are decididly black. Today I have long sleeves on and SOCKS!!) Perhaps the light improves from Madrid down.


Dare I say that the light improves as soon as you get out of Bilbao? We spent last weekend in La Rioja (just an hour or south) and it was lovely there, rubbish here. I'm off to the beach in Cantabria this arvo... always a safer bet than Pais Vasco where you are likely to be rapidly covered by mist that wouldn't be out of place in San Francisco. Except San Francisco doesn't have that steel mill pollution factor as well.


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## geez (Apr 4, 2010)

I remember why I popped in here... education.

Everyone seems to think that their education systems are hell in handbasket territory. Well, then there is my Finnish mate who never fails to contact me when the OECD's PISA scores come out (Finland is invariably No.1, it seems). PISA scores for reading shows Spain does slightly better than the UK. They are about the same for maths. Spain spends 4.5% of GDP on education, UK 5.3%. If both spent as much as Finland then they'd both do a bit better, no doubt. Countries that are more middle class tend to do better on educational measures. 

I know that I'd much prefer to spend time with Spanish teens than British teens. Don't know whether that is about education or culture.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

*Bilbao*



geez said:


> Dare I say that the light improves as soon as you get out of Bilbao? We spent last weekend in La Rioja (just an hour or south) and it was lovely there, rubbish here. I'm off to the beach in Cantabria this arvo... always a safer bet than Pais Vasco where you are likely to be rapidly covered by mist that wouldn't be out of place in San Francisco. Except San Francisco doesn't have that steel mill pollution factor as well.


Could be that the light improves as soon as you get out of Bilbao, but that would have little to do with the steel mills. I've been going to Bilbao for 20 years and the steel industry had already collapsed then. It's a bit like the fog in London syndrome - it used to exist, but hasn't been around for twenty years or more.


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## Guest (Jul 8, 2010)

geez said:


> Dare I say that the light improves as soon as you get out of Bilbao? We spent last weekend in La Rioja (just an hour or south) and it was lovely there, rubbish here. I'm off to the beach in Cantabria this arvo... always a safer bet than Pais Vasco where you are likely to be rapidly covered by mist that wouldn't be out of place in San Francisco. Except San Francisco doesn't have that steel mill pollution factor as well.


I don't think that's a really fair assessment of Pais Vasco... But, hey, more room on the beach for me  That "mist" you complain about doesn't respect borders, we had about 60 straight days of it last winter in Santander!!


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## geez (Apr 4, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Could be that the light improves as soon as you get out of Bilbao, but that would have little to do with the steel mills. I've been going to Bilbao for 20 years and the steel industry had already collapsed then. It's a bit like the fog in London syndrome - it used to exist, but hasn't been around for twenty years or more.


There's still two, apparently. I live with Mr Steel Mill himself. Fascinated by them. I nod and smile. Regardless of the source, pollution is horrid in this river valley on the rare day its not blowing a gale.


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## Guest (Jul 8, 2010)

geez said:


> There's still two, apparently. I live with Mr Steel Mill himself. Fascinated by them. I nod and smile. Regardless of the source, pollution is horrid in this river valley on the rare day its not blowing a gale.


Which river valley are you in, if you don't mind me asking?


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## geez (Apr 4, 2010)

halydia said:


> Which river valley are you in, if you don't mind me asking?


Nervion.


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## geez (Apr 4, 2010)

halydia said:


> I don't think that's a really fair assessment of Pais Vasco... But, hey, more room on the beach for me  That "mist" you complain about doesn't respect borders, we had about 60 straight days of it last winter in Santander!!


Winter fronts can be massive, and May was awful everywhere. However, almost every time we return from a beach trip to Castro Urdiales or Laredo in Cantabria we hit mist. I know a chopper pilot here in Bilbao and asked him about the misty summer weather in Bilbao and he concurred. It's weird... not exactly that 10C difference you get in the Bay area, but there all the same.


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