# Early Retirement in spain



## Terdave

First of all I would like to thank you all for contributing to the expats forum.
My wife and I are doing research in the hope that we can both retire early and live in Spain, our ages are 55 and 53, we have savings and will have an income from pensions, dividends and savings, we have both just returned from Alicante after viewing houses just to get a feel of what is available to us, also to find the right area, we will be visiting Malaga next March. my concern is about health care, am I correct that we have to pay 60 euros per month each to use the Spannish Health system and would this be only until we reach retirement age.


----------



## Alcalaina

This is correct but you can only join this scheme (known as _convenio especial_) after you have been resident here for a year. Until then you will need private health insurance. Once one of you starts getting you UK state pension, you will both get free healthcare under the Spanish system.


----------



## Terdave

Alcalaina said:


> This is correct but you can only join this scheme (known as _convenio especial_) after you have been resident here for a year. Until then you will need private health insurance. Once one of you starts getting you UK state pension, you will both get free healthcare under the Spanish system.


Thanks for taking the time to reply, you have said once one of you starts getting state pension, am I right in saying that when I reach retirement age and receive a pension my wife will get free health care even though she will not be receiving her pension until later


----------



## jimenato

Terdave said:


> Thanks for taking the time to reply, you have said once one of you starts getting state pension, am I right in saying that when I reach retirement age and receive a pension my wife will get free health care even though she will not be receiving her pension until later


You are correct.


----------



## Terdave

jimenato said:


> You are correct.


Thank you, you have been a great help to us, one more thing will this include Dentist and if not are they about the same price as in England


----------



## snikpoh

Terdave said:


> Thank you, you have been a great help to us, one more thing will this include Dentist and if not are they about the same price as in England


No, dentistry is separate and private.

Personally, I think it's about the same price but others I've spoken to say differently (one says UK is more expensive and the other says Spain!).


----------



## olivefarmer

I have just had my third crown here. 155 euros in total.

can't fault the dentist. He nad his two staff work really hard. No receptionist for example. I believe the UK NHS subsidised price is £214 .


----------



## Terdave

olivefarmer said:


> I have just had my third crown here. 155 euros in total.
> 
> can't fault the dentist. He nad his two staff work really hard. No receptionist for example. I believe the UK NHS subsidised price is £214 .


sounds cheap to me, I have just had a small filling today £86 but we have to pay £15 a month to join the Dentist it gives us free check ups and hygienist, a crown you are talking around £1200, we are not on the national health here otherwise it would be cheaper, this Dentist was national health but stopped it and it was a case of move to a different Dentist or stay, my wife likes this Dentist and will not move so costing me (god bless her) so Spain sounds cheap to me


----------



## jimenato

I don't have a lot to go on as I haven't had dental treatment in the UK for 20 years but I was always pleasantly surprised by my bills in Spain. This included four new teeth for my wife - quote 1500 Euros - final bill 1350 Euros.

She's just had new glasses at horrendous cost and other bits are starting to fall off her as well. 

She's starting to get expensive. I think the time's coming...


----------



## Horlics

I saw the positive response to this and noticed another confirmation of the same scheme on here a few days ago. A couple of months or so ago it was said that this facility was only available in about 6 of the autonomous regions. They've all agreed to do it, but I wasn't sure if they all had yet. It's worth checking unless somebody here can say for sure that it's all sorted now.




Terdave said:


> ...am I correct that we have to pay 60 euros per month each to use the Spannish Health system and would this be only until we reach retirement age.


----------



## Terdave

you have just started a new debate, are you saying that the Opticians are expensive in Spain as we both wear glasses, one pair here, frames,lenses with bifocal lense,something about bright light £200


----------



## Terdave

Horlics said:


> I saw the positive response to this and noticed another confirmation of the same scheme on here a few days ago. A couple of months or so ago it was said that this facility was only available in about 6 of the autonomous regions. They've all agreed to do it, but I wasn't sure if they all had yet. It's worth checking unless somebody here can say for sure that it's all sorted now.




not all private dentist are on this system of paying x amount a month, on this system it gives us worldwide cover, we have relations in lincoln and they have not heard of it. free market, rip off britain. can't wait to be rid of this place


----------



## Terdave

Horlics said:


> I saw the positive response to this and noticed another confirmation of the same scheme on here a few days ago. A couple of months or so ago it was said that this facility was only available in about 6 of the autonomous regions. They've all agreed to do it, but I wasn't sure if they all had yet. It's worth checking unless somebody here can say for sure that it's all sorted now.


Sorry misread your post, yes I have read this I am hoping it is the area that we choose to live, I have put a link to the site I read this but it only covers Valencia. it also says The scheme is nation-wide, my question is what area does Valencia cover and it says it is nation-wide. any one known what this means

Health Care In Spain | Working through the British consulate looking to offer information on health care requirements for UK residents living and working in Spain


----------



## Horlics

It covers the whole of the Comunitat Valenciana. That does include Alicante.



Terdave said:


> Sorry misread your post, yes I have read this I am hoping it is the area that we choose to live, I have put a link to the site I read this but it only covers Valencia. it also says The scheme is nation-wide, my question is what area does Valencia cover and it says it is nation-wide. any one known what this means
> 
> Health Care In Spain | Working through the British consulate looking to offer information on health care requirements for UK residents living and working in Spain


----------



## Terdave

Horlics said:


> It covers the whole of the Comunitat Valenciana. That does include Alicante.


anyone know if this "Convenio Especial" is available in the Murcia area, Malaga or almeria, if I can not get it in these areas then it's pointless looking at these areas to live and keep to the Valencia area. when it says this is nation wide I take it as the whole of Spain


----------



## 90199

I am informed that there is a free Dentist available here in Valverde, El Hierro, Canary Islands, but most seem to us the private ones.


----------



## gwennethk

Hi, interested to read your post as my husband and I are retiring to Alicante in April. We are 65 and 63. We know the area reasonably well but I was wondering if you had any comments on areas you visited. We are in the process of looking for a long term rental for 6 months until we make a final decision. We are drawn to Playa Flamenca or La Zenia. Any comments really appreciated.


----------



## Terdave

Well I have just found this on a web site,

you can claim temporary reciprocal healthcare in Spain for 18 months on arrival. I believe you have to complete a form downloaded from either dwp pensions website or from govt.org. Then they send back a form which you take to your local INSS office in Spain (thats the Social Security office) and they give you another form to take to your local medical centre to get the temporary SIP card. When this card runs out after 18 months, you will need some kind of Private health insurance.

is this true?


----------



## Lynn R

Terdave said:


> Well I have just found this on a web site,
> 
> you can claim temporary reciprocal healthcare in Spain for 18 months on arrival. I believe you have to complete a form downloaded from either dwp pensions website or from govt.org. Then they send back a form which you take to your local INSS office in Spain (thats the Social Security office) and they give you another form to take to your local medical centre to get the temporary SIP card. When this card runs out after 18 months, you will need some kind of Private health insurance.
> 
> is this true?


Sorry, but the information on that website is out of date. That was the case up until 1 July 2014, but from that date the UK stopped issuing S1 forms to anyone moving to another EU country if they are below state retirement age.

The information you were given earlier in the thread is correct. For the first year after you move you will need private health insurance (which, so long as you have no pre-existing conditions which complicates things, can actually be cheaper than paying into the state health system via the convenio especial.) Our premiums for 2 people aged 65 and 57 (the company we're with doesn't increase the premiums once a policyholder turns 65) will be €115 per month from 1 January, whereas the convenio especial currently costs €60 per person per month for under 65s and €157 per month for over 65s. We have just been able to register with the state health system as my husband was able to obtain an S1 when he became a UK state pensioner, and so was I as his dependent, but we're keeping our private cover on as well, for the time being.

I believe Andalucia has also now signed up to the convenio especial, so you would be OK in that respect in Malaga province.


----------



## Terdave

gwennethk said:


> Hi, interested to read your post as my husband and I are retiring to Alicante in April. We are 65 and 63. We know the area reasonably well but I was wondering if you had any comments on areas you visited. We are in the process of looking for a long term rental for 6 months until we make a final decision. We are drawn to Playa Flamenca or La Zenia. Any comments really appreciated.


I am the wrong person to ask, someone on this board from Alicante could answer your question far better than me.
we all have differents likes and dislikes, Alicante was a nice place, we had a great time there, but we could not live there in the city, my wife can not drive so we have to find somewhere shops are close by, bus stop, Doctors etc etc. sounds like we do want Alicante but no we could not afford it, we have to buy inland to get the house we like, we want it quiet but walking distance to bars and restaurants, we visited Santa Pola, winter months very quiet, Arenals de sol was nice, Sant vicent de raspeig and Mutxamel but just to drive in and walk about is different to living there, we will do the same and rent before we buy, so if you find a place please tell me, good luck


----------



## Terdave

Lynn R said:


> Sorry, but the information on that website is out of date. That was the case up until 1 July 2014, but from that date the UK stopped issuing S1 forms to anyone moving to another EU country if they are below state retirement age.
> 
> The information you were given earlier in the thread is correct. For the first year after you move you will need private health insurance (which, so long as you have no pre-existing conditions which complicates things, can actually be cheaper than paying into the state health system via the convenio especial.) Our premiums for 2 people aged 65 and 57 (the company we're with doesn't increase the premiums once a policyholder turns 65) will be €115 per month from 1 January, whereas the convenio especial currently costs €60 per person per month for under 65s and €157 per month for over 65s. We have just been able to register with the state health system as my husband was able to obtain an S1 when he became a UK state pensioner, and so was I as his dependent, but we're keeping our private cover on as well, for the time being.
> 
> I believe Andalucia has also now signed up to the convenio especial, so you would be OK in that respect in Malaga province.


This is good news if you are right Andalucia is covered as we wanted to explore Malaga and Almeria, can any one confirm this please. thanks


----------



## Lynn R

Terdave said:


> This is good news if you are right Andalucia is covered as we wanted to explore Malaga and Almeria, can any one confirm this please. thanks


I knew I should have checked for a link before I posted that - now I can't find anything to confirm it, so I'm sorry to have misled you. Must have been thinking of something else altogether.


----------



## snikpoh

Terdave said:


> you have just started a new debate, are you saying that the Opticians are expensive in Spain as we both wear glasses, one pair here, frames,lenses with bifocal lense,something about bright light £200


There are three of us who need specs in our family - bi-focals (wife), long distance (me) and both long and short for my eldest son.

We went to Direkt Optica (in Moraira) - 3 pairs for about 300€. We were able to get one bi-focal, one pair for me and one for my son. Not a bad deal at all!


----------



## Terdave

snikpoh said:


> There are three of us who need specs in our family - bi-focals (wife), long distance (me) and both long and short for my eldest son.
> 
> We went to Direkt Optica (in Moraira) - 3 pairs for about 300€. We were able to get one bi-focal, one pair for me and one for my son. Not a bad deal at all!


sounds good to me


----------



## Terdave

Lynn R said:


> I knew I should have checked for a link before I posted that - now I can't find anything to confirm it, so I'm sorry to have misled you. Must have been thinking of something else altogether.


No problem, I am sure someone will come on this board with the information I require, I only have the option of the state health and not private as I broke my hip over 2 years ago, and may need a new hip before I retire. private insurance would not cover me


----------



## Pesky Wesky

jimenato said:


> I don't have a lot to go on as I haven't had dental treatment in the UK for 20 years but I was always pleasantly surprised by my bills in Spain. This included four new teeth for my wife - quote 1500 Euros - final bill 1350 Euros.
> 
> She's just had new glasses at horrendous cost and other bits are starting to fall off her as well.
> 
> She's starting to get expensive. I think the time's coming...


And you?????!


----------



## Lynn R

Terdave said:


> No problem, I am sure someone will come on this board with the information I require, I only have the option of the state health and not private as I broke my hip over 2 years ago, and may need a new hip before I retire. private insurance would not cover me


Then your problem is, unfortunately, that you would be in something of a Catch 22 situation. You would be unable to register as a foreign resident in Spain without being able to provide evidence of having health cover in place, but as was pointed out earlier, even in the autonomous regions where the convenio especial has already been adopted, you can only take up that option after you have been officially resident in Spain for a minimum of one year.


----------



## Terdave

Pesky Wesky said:


> And you?????!


and me yes


----------



## Terdave

Lynn R said:


> Then your problem is, unfortunately, that you would be in something of a Catch 22 situation. You would be unable to register as a foreign resident in Spain without being able to provide evidence of having health cover in place, but as was pointed out earlier, even in the autonomous regions where the convenio especial has already been adopted, you can only take up that option after you have been officially resident in Spain for a minimum of one year.


I will take out insurance for the first year but hope I don't claim on my hip, When you say officially resident in Spain for a minimum of one year, would that include the first 6 months of arriving in Spain or is this when we are officially a resident i.e. after the first 6 months so after 18 months living there


----------



## Lynn R

Terdave said:


> I will take out insurance for the first year but hope I don't claim on my hip, When you say officially resident in Spain for a minimum of one year, would that include the first 6 months of arriving in Spain or is this when we are officially a resident i.e. after the first 6 months so after 18 months living there


You should register as a resident within 90 days of your arrival in Spain, if you plan to stay here for longer than 3 months (although there have been many "heated debates" on here about those who just want to spend an extended holiday of up to 6 months here but not wanting to become resident, either not needing\not wanting to do so). But if you plan to be here long term and want to use the convenio especial, then I guess it would be in your interests to register as soon as possible, so you would get the first year of waiting until you are able to sign up for the convenio especial over sooner rather than later.

/SNIP/

It can be risky not to declare any pre-existing condition when applying for private health insurance, though. If anything were to happen and the insurance company were to find out about it at a later date, they can take the view that you were "economical with the truth" on your application and refuse to pay for treatment not even connected with the pre-existing problem.


----------



## Roy C

I was told by someone that MAPFRE med ins don't ask about pre existing conditions, although I haven't checked that out as yet.


----------



## Terdave

Lynn R said:


> You should register as a resident within 90 days of your arrival in Spain, if you plan to stay here for longer than 3 months (although there have been many "heated debates" on here about those who just want to spend an extended holiday of up to 6 months here but not wanting to become resident, either not needing\not wanting to do so). But if you plan to be here long term and want to use the convenio especial, then I guess it would be in your interests to register as soon as possible, so you would get the first year of waiting until you are able to sign up for the convenio especial over sooner rather than later.
> 
> /SNIP/
> It can be risky not to declare any pre-existing condition when applying for private health insurance, though. If anything were to happen and the insurance company were to find out about it at a later date, they can take the view that you were "economical with the truth" on your application and refuse to pay for treatment not even connected with the pre-existing problem.


When I take out private insurance, I would declare any pre-existing conditions if asked, if it cost 3 times as much to insure me then so be it, hopefully it's just for one year. yes it would be in my interest to register as soon as possible, hope I can do this after 3 months, worse case 6 months.
thank you for taking the time to reply


----------



## Terdave

Roy C said:


> I was told by someone that MAPFRE med ins don't ask about pre existing conditions, although I haven't checked that out as yet.


Thanks for that, all this information is very much appreciated and will help us in the future


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Terdave said:


> and me yes



The question was intended for Jimenato who was telling us about his costly wife!


----------



## jimenato

Pesky Wesky said:


> The question was intended for Jimenato who was telling us about his costly wife!


I'm improving with age.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Like this you mean


----------



## jimenato

Pesky Wesky said:


> Like this you mean


That could be me.


----------



## Terdave

Terdave said:


> When I take out private insurance, I would declare any pre-existing conditions if asked, if it cost 3 times as much to insure me then so be it, hopefully it's just for one year. yes it would be in my interest to register as soon as possible, hope I can do this after 3 months, worse case 6 months.
> thank you for taking the time to reply


Convenio Especial

Spanish authorities also offer a pay-in scheme, known as Convenio Especial, available to those who do not qualify for free healthcare. It is essentially a public health insurance scheme which provides cover in exchange for a monthly fee. The recently announced package consists of a monthly fee of EUR 60 for those aged 65 or under, while those over 65 must pay EUR 157. Prescription costs do not form part of the cover, however, and the scheme is currently being rolled out in a number of regions with a view to being available throughout the country within a short period of time.


----------



## xabiaxica

Terdave said:


> Convenio Especial
> 
> Spanish authorities also offer a pay-in scheme, known as Convenio Especial, available to those who do not qualify for free healthcare. It is essentially a public health insurance scheme which provides cover in exchange for a monthly fee. The recently announced package consists of a monthly fee of EUR 60 for those aged 65 or under, while those over 65 must pay EUR 157. Prescription costs do not form part of the cover, however, and the scheme is currently being rolled out in a number of regions with a view to being available throughout the country within a short period of time.


yes that's right

but you have to be a registered resident for 12 months before you can access it

and as far as the Spanish govt is concerned you are obliged to register if you are, or plan to be, here for 90 days or more


----------



## Terdave

xabiachica said:


> yes that's right
> 
> but you have to be a registered resident for 12 months before you can access it
> 
> and as far as the Spanish govt is concerned you are obliged to register if you are, or plan to be, here for 90 days or more


So we would be living in spain 18 months before we can both apply for the Convenio Especial. or when the 12 months is up from registering as a spanish citizen, but the first 6 months we will be covered by our EHIC card


----------



## xabiaxica

Terdave said:


> So we would be living in spain 18 months before we can both apply for the Convenio Especial. or when the 12 months is up from registering as a spanish citizen, but the first 6 months we will be covered by our EHIC card


no - you can apply for the convenio especial 12 months from registering as a _resident - _(you'd need to be here 10 years before applying to become a Spanish citizen - an entirely different thing) 
you can register as resident as soon as you arrive & are obliged to do so within 90 days (3 months) - so the longest you should need private healthcare is 15 months


the EHIC is for holidays only - once you've been here 90 days, as far as Spain is concerned you're no longer on holiday, even if you haven't registered as resident, and also the UK, if they suspect that you have moved here, rather than are on a long holiday, could refuse to foot the bill, and equally, Spain could refuse to accept the card

either way you'd have to pay for any healthcare


----------



## baldilocks

Terdave said:


> So we would be living in spain 18 months before we can both apply for the Convenio Especial. or when the 12 months is up from registering as a spanish citizen,* but the first 6 months we will be covered by our EHIC card*


No, no, no. The EHIC is only for holidays or temporary visits (e.g. short work periods). Once you have been here 90 days you will be deemed to be resident and as such your EHIC will not apply. As a resident, you will be required to register on the foreigners' register and to do that you will need to show that you have sufficient funds to be able to keep yourselves (approx 650€ per person, per month going into a Spanish bank account or capital) plus healthcare provision (either private insurance or if you are eligible {e.g. as a pensioner} have a form S1 from your home country).


----------



## Terdave

xabiachica said:


> no - you can apply for the convenio especial 12 months from registering as a _resident - _(you'd need to be here 10 years before applying to become a Spanish citizen - an entirely different thing)
> you can register as resident as soon as you arrive & are obliged to do so within 90 days (3 months) - so the longest you should need private healthcare is 15 months
> 
> 
> the EHIC is for holidays only - once you've been here 90 days, as far as Spain is concerned you're no longer on holiday, even if you haven't registered as resident, and also the UK, if they suspect that you have moved here, rather than are on a long holiday, could refuse to foot the bill, and equally, Spain could refuse to accept the card
> 
> either way you'd have to pay for any healthcare


what was I thinking, yes of cause, you are correct, a Spanish resident, well thank you for your help, at least we know what to expect and do when we both make the move to Spain


----------



## Terdave

baldilocks said:


> No, no, no. The EHIC is only for holidays or temporary visits (e.g. short work periods). Once you have been here 90 days you will be deemed to be resident and as such your EHIC will not apply. As a resident, you will be required to register on the foreigners' register and to do that you will need to show that you have sufficient funds to be able to keep yourselves (approx 650€ per person, per month going into a Spanish bank account or capital) plus healthcare provision (either private insurance or if you are eligible {e.g. as a pensioner} have a form S1 from your home country).


Yes but if we are renting on a month by month contract for the first 6 months maybe not in the same place as we would be exploring different parts of Spain to find the perfect place for us both, we have up to 183 days or an average 91 days over 4 years to apply as a resident, so is this not classed as a visit, after all we could change our minds and return to England where it's cold, wet and a goverment who say and do as they please, before the 183 days


----------



## xabiaxica

Terdave said:


> Yes but if we are renting on a month by month contract for the first 6 months maybe not in the same place as we would be exploring different parts of Spain to find the perfect place for us both, we have up to 183 days or an average 91 days over 4 years to apply as a resident, so is this not classed as a visit, after all we could change our minds and return to England where it's cold, wet and a goverment who say and do as they please, before the 183 days


no it doesn't work like that

if you are in Spain for *any 90 consecutive days* - even if you were driving around & sleeping in a tent in various fields, you are considered to be resident as far as Spain is concerned

I'm not sure where you're getting the 4 years from :confused2: - but the 183 days is for _*tax residency*_ & that has nothing to do with being a registered resident - &_* is 183 cumulative days Jan 1st to Dec 31st*_


----------



## baldilocks

Terdave said:


> Yes but if we are renting on a month by month contract for the first 6 months maybe not in the same place as we would be exploring different parts of Spain to find the perfect place for us both, we have up to 183 days or an average 91 days over 4 years to apply as a resident, so is this not classed as a visit, after all we could change our minds and return to England where it's cold, wet and a goverment who say and do as they please, before the 183 days


183 days and you are a TAX resident which is not the same thing - you will be taxed in Spain on your WORLDWIDE income. Irrespective of how you are renting or where you are living, after 90 days you are deemed to be a resident and required to register as a resident. 

The rules about "Tax resident" are 183 days in a tax year (Jan-Dec). 

The rules about 'resident in Spain' are 90 *consecutive* days (maybe spread over from one year to the next (e.g. December - February) and you are required to register as a resident _*during*_ that 90 day period, not (as some think) at the end of it.


----------



## Terdave

xabiachica said:


> no it doesn't work like that
> 
> if you are in Spain for *any 90 consecutive days* - even if you were driving around & sleeping in a tent in various fields, you are considered to be resident as far as Spain is concerned
> 
> I'm not sure where you're getting the 4 years from :confused2: - but the 183 days is for _*tax residency*_ & that has nothing to do with being a registered resident - &_* is 183 cumulative days Jan 1st to Dec 31st*_


Unable to find where I read this about 4 years average 91 accumulative days, but you have made it very clear about consecutive days and accumulative days, so we could use (don't shout all at once) our EHIC card for 3 months and then apply for residency, and take out private insurance, after 12 months and then apply for Convenio Especial


----------



## xabiaxica

Terdave said:


> Unable to find where I read this about 4 years average 91 accumulative days, but you have made it very clear about consecutive days and accumulative days, so we could use (don't shout all at once) our EHIC card for 3 months and then apply for residency, and take out private insurance, after 12 months and then apply for Convenio Especial


pretty much, yes, although you might still have the EHIC refused if they suspect that you are really living here - & it's up to you to prove that you don't, rather than for them to prove that you do

but why not just register as resident straight away? (not apply for residency - only non-EU citizen have to apply for residency - EU citizens just register their presence) That way you would be able to take advantage of the convenio especial sooner rather than later, assuming you are in an area where it is available, and have full access to the healthcare system


----------



## gwennethk

so if you are living in Spain over the 90 days, and automatically become resident, am I right in presuming we would have to open a bank account there and have our state pension paid into that? And if so, is there a dual taxation agreement where we would be taxed again in Spain?


----------



## snikpoh

You don't have to open a bank here BUT, if you want to be legally resident, then that requires one.

You can open a bank account straight away as a non-resident. Once on the list of foreigners, you could then change this to a resident account (which can be cheaper to run).


The dual taxation agreement just means that you don't pay the same tax twice. You would have to declare any tax already paid in UK and have it offset against any tax liability in Spain.


----------



## 90199

gwennethk said:


> so if you are living in Spain over the 90 days, and automatically become resident, am I right in presuming we would have to open a bank account there and have our state pension paid into that? And if so, is there a dual taxation agreement where we would be taxed again in Spain?


I have my pensions paid into a U.K. bank, then when the exchange rate is favourable, I transfer a lump some, using a currency exchange firm, to my account here in the Canary Isles. Because I transfer over 3000GBP I do not pay commission either in the U.K. or here, and the exchange rate is far better than what the banks offer.


----------



## Terdave

Hepa said:


> I have my pensions paid into a U.K. bank, then when the exchange rate is favourable, I transfer a lump some, using a currency exchange firm, to my account here in the Canary Isles. Because I transfer over 3000GBP I do not pay commission either in the U.K. or here, and the exchange rate is far better than what the banks offer.


This is what we would like to do, someone on this board said we need 650e each to transfer into our spanish account each month, we could do this, but we thought just transfer the money when spanish bank account runs low, as you said when the rates are favourable, my point is if we had to transfer 1300e a month we could be forced to exchange money at a low rate, if the spanish goverment said as long as you have x amount in your account then that would be fine


----------



## Terdave

gwennethk said:


> so if you are living in Spain over the 90 days, and automatically become resident, am I right in presuming we would have to open a bank account there and have our state pension paid into that? And if so, is there a dual taxation agreement where we would be taxed again in Spain?


no one said anything about automatically become resident, as far as I know you have to apply, fill the paperwork in.


----------



## xabiaxica

Terdave said:


> no one said anything about automatically become resident, as far as I know you have to apply, fill the paperwork in.


You are automatically considered resident even if you don't register. 
However that just means that any future benefits such as the convenio especial aren't available to you as an unregistered resident


----------



## Terdave

xabiachica said:


> You are automatically considered resident even if you don't register.
> However that just means that any future benefits such as the convenio especial aren't available to you as an unregistered resident


I can only go on what I have read and heard from this board, I would just like to thank all the people on this great site who have taken the trouble to reply to me, I only came on this board yesterday and have gained a vast about of knowledge from people like yourself and others, you kind people are out there, you don't have to reply to us but great that you do, to us people in England who are doing reseach and want it right for when we make that big move.

you have said automatically considered resident,I have found a quote on what is law

A residencia is a form of permit for those who intend to reside in Spain on a permanent basis. It is NOT compulsory for EU citizens, however, there are advantages. They are issued by the National Police dept. You may wish to employ the services of a gestor for your application. Failing this, visit your nearest police station and collect the application forms.

Go to the police station and collect the forms. Complete and return them along with the documents they request and usually you can collect your certificate one month later. Residencia cards are no longer issued as EU courts ruled that they were illegal. Now it is just an A4 piece of paper. You MUST by law carry this with you at all times. Failure to do so can result in a fine on the spo


----------



## xabiaxica

Terdave said:


> I can only go on what I have read and heard from this board, I would just like to thank all the people on this great site who have taken the trouble to reply to me, I only came on this board yesterday and have gained a vast about of knowledge from people like yourself and others, you kind people are out there, you don't have to reply to us but great that you do, to us people in England who are doing reseach and want it right for when we make that big move.
> 
> you have said automatically considered resident,I have found a quote on what is law
> 
> A residencia is a form of permit for those who intend to reside in Spain on a permanent basis. It is NOT compulsory for EU citizens, however, there are advantages. They are issued by the National Police dept. You may wish to employ the services of a gestor for your application. Failing this, visit your nearest police station and collect the application forms.
> 
> Go to the police station and collect the forms. Complete and return them along with the documents they request and usually you can collect your certificate one month later. Residencia cards are no longer issued as EU courts ruled that they were illegal. Now it is just an A4 piece of paper. You MUST by law carry this with you at all times. Failure to do so can result in a fine on the spot


actually you don't have to carry it with you because it isn't a form of ID - it even says that in great big capital letters on it 

and they started issuing 'cards' again a couple of years ago - but even these aren't ID


----------



## Terdave

xabiachica said:


> actually you don't have to carry it with you because it isn't a form of ID - it even says that in great big capital letters on it
> 
> and they started issuing 'cards' again a couple of years ago - but even these aren't ID


as I said you know better than me, this will not apply to me as I want the apply for the convenio especial, and by the sounds of it the sooner the better when we find the area we want to live in, and get everything in place this end, so much to think about and do.

anyone know which area is best i.e. Malaga, Almeria or Alicante for brits, when we had a scout around Alicante, everyone was so friendly towards us and could I fault the place, thought this was the place, but must try out Malaga and Almeria just so we can say we did try other places


----------



## Lynn R

Terdave said:


> anyone know which area is best i.e. Malaga, Almeria or Alicante for brits, when we had a scout around Alicante, everyone was so friendly towards us and could I fault the place, thought this was the place, but must try out Malaga and Almeria just so we can say we did try other places


I don't think there is any such thing as a "best area for Brits", really. We're not an amorphous mass, are we? We all like diffferent things. Some people, like me, prefer towns, lots of others prefer the country. Some of us live in areas where there aren't lots of other British people around, lots of us live in places where there are. Some want to live by the sea, others don't. And even if we knew more about your personal preferences and were to suggest that this or that place would be perfect for you, when you got there you'd be just as likely to think it was horrible. No substitute for visiting various areas and sussing them out as to how well they suit your individual needs and preferences, really.


----------



## Terdave

Lynn R said:


> I don't think there is any such thing as a "best area for Brits", really. We're not an amorphous mass, are we? We all like diffferent things. Some people, like me, prefer towns, lots of others prefer the country. Some of us live in areas where there aren't lots of other British people around, lots of us live in places where there are. Some want to live by the sea, others don't. And even if we knew more about your personal preferences and were to suggest that this or that place would be perfect for you, when you got there you'd be just as likely to think it was horrible. No substitute for visiting various areas and sussing them out as to how well they suit your individual needs and preferences, really.


yes I agree with you 100%, I have said the same thing as you to a previous person on this board yesterday, but just threw it out just in case, when I said the places, what I should of said was regions of Valencia, Murcia and Andalucia, but as we have said, we all have different likes and dislikes


----------



## stevesainty

Just a quick précis of the areas you mentioned.

The coastal area north of Alicante, up to Benidorm is very well served by year round buses and the tram of course. There are lots of ex pats of all nationalities living there. You missed out El Campello which is a lovely Spanish town with a fabulous beach. The only downside, for us anyway, was that, accommodation wise, there are very few 'houses' only apartments. These apartments however are large and roomy and come with 2,3 or four bedrooms and one or two bathrooms. Rents are around 400€ per month without electricity or gas, but including water and rubbish and local council charges (SUMA).

Playa Flamenca and La Zenia are mainly ex pat resorts with very few Spanish people living there. There is a very large Irish ex pat community in Playa Flamenca. There are various beaches and little coves around this area with coastal walks. There are a great variety of shops and bars within walking distance of almost anywhere you choose to live. The housing stock is large and various from one bedroomed apartments up to huge detached villas, all for sale or rent. The downsides, IMHO, are the complete lack of public transport, perhaps one or two buses a day. The local council, Orihuela Costa, is an offshoot of Orihuela city and the city is very greedy, spending most of the revenue on the city and not the coastal region.

Where we eventually settled was in the suburbs of the town of Torrevieja. When we were doing our research, three years before we came and one year renting when we got here, we would not have touched Torrevieja with a barge pole.

It had a reputation for being a crime and drug hot spot, dirty, with graffiti covered ghettos etc.

However we discovered that it was nothing like it was painted. It is a very lively, mainly Spanish town with a wonderful coastline, four blue flag beaches, two harbours and a plethora of shops, bars and restaurants.

It is very cultural with several theatres and museums.It has a large public hospital as well as a few small, private ones. It has several health centres.

The local council seem to be doing a good job. They clean the streets regularly and seem to be constantly striving to improve the residents' lot.

It has a regular network of buses, year round running at 40 minute intervals. Residents, old and young, pay 7€ to obtain a bus pass and every year thereafter it is free; so no bus fares to pay. It has regular coach services to all the major cities including Alicante and its airport.

There are two large salt lakes/nature reserves within the town boundaries with large flocks of wading birds including flamingos in the summer.

The housing stock is very varied and you could rent something very cheaply.

The population is mainly Spanish in the town itself, with Spanish and northern European ex pats living in the suburban urbanisations.

Anyway I am biased but we found this place from lots of places that we researched, from Gandia in the North of Valencia to Los Alcazeres in Murcia.

Come and rent, for at least a year, to find your feet and discover if you have made the right decision. If you own a property in UK, hold on to it and let it; the income, even after tax, will probably offset any rent you pay in Spain.

Good luck,

Steve


----------



## Terdave

stevesainty said:


> Just a quick précis of the areas you mentioned.
> 
> The coastal area north of Alicante, up to Benidorm is very well served by year round buses and the tram of course. There are lots of ex pats of all nationalities living there. You missed out El Campello which is a lovely Spanish town with a fabulous beach. The only downside, for us anyway, was that, accommodation wise, there are very few 'houses' only apartments. These apartments however are large and roomy and come with 2,3 or four bedrooms and one or two bathrooms. Rents are around 400€ per month without electricity or gas, but including water and rubbish and local council charges (SUMA).
> 
> Playa Flamenca and La Zenia are mainly ex pat resorts with very few Spanish people living there. There is a very large Irish ex pat community in Playa Flamenca. There are various beaches and little coves around this area with coastal walks. There are a great variety of shops and bars within walking distance of almost anywhere you choose to live. The housing stock is large and various from one bedroomed apartments up to huge detached villas, all for sale or rent. The downsides, IMHO, are the complete lack of public transport, perhaps one or two buses a day. The local council, Orihuela Costa, is an offshoot of Orihuela city and the city is very greedy, spending most of the revenue on the city and not the coastal region.
> 
> Where we eventually settled was in the suburbs of the town of Torrevieja. When we were doing our research, three years before we came and one year renting when we got here, we would not have touched Torrevieja with a barge pole.
> 
> It had a reputation for being a crime and drug hot spot, dirty, with graffiti covered ghettos etc.
> 
> However we discovered that it was nothing like it was painted. It is a very lively, mainly Spanish town with a wonderful coastline, four blue flag beaches, two harbours and a plethora of shops, bars and restaurants.
> 
> It is very cultural with several theatres and museums.It has a large public hospital as well as a few small, private ones. It has several health centres.
> 
> The local council seem to be doing a good job. They clean the streets regularly and seem to be constantly striving to improve the residents' lot.
> 
> It has a regular network of buses, year round running at 40 minute intervals. Residents, old and young, pay 7€ to obtain a bus pass and every year thereafter it is free; so no bus fares to pay. It has regular coach services to all the major cities including Alicante and its airport.
> 
> There are two large salt lakes/nature reserves within the town boundaries with large flocks of wading birds including flamingos in the summer.
> 
> The housing stock is very varied and you could rent something very cheaply.
> 
> The population is mainly Spanish in the town itself, with Spanish and northern European ex pats living in the suburban urbanisations.
> 
> Anyway I am biased but we found this place from lots of places that we researched, from Gandia in the North of Valencia to Los Alcazeres in Murcia.
> 
> Come and rent, for at least a year, to find your feet and discover if you have made the right decision. If you own a property in UK, hold on to it and let it; the income, even after tax, will probably offset any rent you pay in Spain.
> 
> Good luck,
> 
> Steve


Thank you for your Valuable insight on these areas, we both appreciate the time you have taken, This was just the information we are looking for, not live here it's great, but just a general view of an area so we can make our own minds up, because when we visit (like you must of done) a town or an area, driving through or walking around it's hard to make that judgement,

When we stayed in Alicante we did drive through El Campello but as you know every town looks the same.

We are both looking for a house or Villa to buy, If my wife had her way she would have the house on the beach, We know any property close to the sea cost more so will have to live inland but not to far away from the sea. My wife can not drive so we then have to make sure shops are within walking distance, bus stops and Doctors just in case anything happens to me, all this makes it a mine field, We viewed 5 houses when we came over but none with any shops close by, we went to view a house at Mutxamel, big housing estate, bus stop near by, but no shops, but this is Spain not England.


----------



## Terdave

You have got me thinking now, rent my house over here in England, rent in Spain, that way free to move around any area until we find the right place and wow house.


----------



## Terdave

I should of said, rent my house out here in England


----------



## stevesainty

Terdave said:


> You have got me thinking now, rent my house over here in England, rent in Spain, that way free to move around any area until we find the right place and wow house.


Yes that is what I meant. If you find that Spain is not for you after all, or find that you have settled in the wrong area, getting rid of a property can be a real headache. Better to rent, at least for the short term, I would say minimum of a year. This gives you breathing space to look for your 'wow' house.

We have our UK house in the hands of an agent, and even after his fees and income tax it still covered our rental costs in Spain with some to spare. You may find that renting permanently suits you, then you would still have your asset in UK.


----------



## Terdave

stevesainty said:


> Yes that is what I meant. If you find that Spain is not for you after all, or find that you have settled in the wrong area, getting rid of a property can be a real headache. Better to rent, at least for the short term, I would say minimum of a year. This gives you breathing space to look for your 'wow' house.
> 
> We have our UK house in the hands of an agent, and even after his fees and income tax it still covered our rental costs in Spain with some to spare. You may find that renting permanently suits you, then you would still have your asset in UK.


This sounds a great idea, thanks, we could rent out for ever in Spain as long as we have our house in England, and the rent in Spain cost less or even the same, than the income from our our property, taking into account agent fees, Spanish tax plus exchange rate. Our aim would be to buy in the end but at least it gives us breathing space plus find out if we enjoy living in Spain


----------



## baldilocks

Terdave said:


> This sounds a great idea, thanks, we could rent out for ever in Spain as long as we have our house in England, and the rent in Spain cost less or even the same, than the income from our our property, taking into account agent fees, Spanish tax plus exchange rate. Our aim would be to buy in the end but at least it gives us breathing space plus find out if we enjoy living in Spain


This is fine until you find that your tenants in UK have trashed your house and it is now almost worthless except for the land value.


----------



## Kevin the builder

I would only advise that you choose an agent very wisely to look after your rented property in the uk .


----------



## stevesainty

Kevin the builder said:


> I would only advise that you choose an agent very wisely to look after your rented property in the uk .


Our agent is a long standing company in our home town and we have all safeguards in place including tenant default insurance and compulsory bi annual property inspections. Our house in UK is solely an asset now, we would probably never live there again even if we returned.
Like all business ventures there is a risk involved, the trick is to minimise the risk by hiring professionals with a known track record and a reputation to uphold.


----------



## stevesainty

baldilocks said:


> This is fine until you find that your tenants in UK have trashed your house and it is now almost worthless except for the land value.


Maybe if you go it alone. It is unworkable if you are an absentee landlord unless you employ a reputable local letting agent. They have checks and balances in place to ensure that a) the tenant can afford to pay the rent long term and b) you and they agree on the type of tenant you wish to have i.e. no DSS etc,

Life is a risk, all we can do is mitigate the effects of that risk.


----------



## Terdave

stevesainty said:


> Maybe if you go it alone. It is unworkable if you are an absentee landlord unless you employ a reputable local letting agent. They have checks and balances in place to ensure that a) the tenant can afford to pay the rent long term and b) you and they agree on the type of tenant you wish to have i.e. no DSS etc,
> 
> Life is a risk, all we can do is mitigate the effects of that risk.


Thank you for all your valuable imput, Kevin the builder, baldilocks and stevesainty. I agree the house could be trashed so there is only one route as far as I can see, and that is by hiring professionals with a known track record and a reputation to uphold as Kevin the builder as stated, and that this is unworkable if you are an absentee landlord as stevesainty as stated. so Insurance is a must plus inspections. I have a friend who lets his property out, he uses a letting agency they were supposed to check on the house every 3 months or was it 6 months, don't know, he told me that when the woman moved out, they found the house in a bad state, this woman had a cat, he knew about this and agreed that it would be ok for her to keep the cat, the paint work around the doors were scratched, carpet in the front room damaged and had to be changed. so inspections had not told him about these, or there was no inspections, who knows. he kept the retainer money but had to decorate the whole house before he could let again, he lost his trust with letting agencies so is now doing it alone with a £10 letting contract from W H Smiths, the difference is , he is there to check, we will not be, so it has to be someone with a known track record and a reputation to uphold has stevesainty has rightly said.
Next question, do we let our house furnished, we have just spent 5 and a half grand on a leather 3 piece suite, then she tells me she wants to move to Spain. so I could leave the furniture, take it to Spain, sell it, or even put it in storage.
If only life could be so simple.
I suppose if you have a handyman to do the small jobs he could always update you. after all that I still like the idea of letting our house as I would not be living there again.
One more thing we could sell this house furnished, buy another house and let that.
have to go now my head hurts


----------



## stevesainty

It is easier to let a property unfurnished and these days it makes little difference to the landlords or tenants rights whether a property is unfurnished, in UK.
Taking your leather suite to Spain would be a burden, especially as almost all properties are both let and sold, fully furnished. It would be easier to sell the suite on Ebay with a reserve price, buyer to collect.


----------



## Terdave

stevesainty said:


> It is easier to let a property unfurnished and these days it makes little difference to the landlords or tenants rights whether a property is unfurnished, in UK.
> Taking your leather suite to Spain would be a burden, especially as almost all properties are both let and sold, fully furnished. It would be easier to sell the suite on Ebay with a reserve price, buyer to collect.


You have to laugh, my wife has just arrived home from work, I told and shown her everything about letting our house, it's put her off letting it now. she thinks sell our house then go to Spain, rent for the first year then after we have found the right area and house, buy one. so will keep coming over and try different areas and hopefully not rent for too long as this will be an extra cost to us.
I think it was more about the 3 piece suite that changed her mind.
you never know we might still let, all part of the reseach.
p.s. guess who wears the trousers in our house.


----------



## mrypg9

stevesainty said:


> It is easier to let a property unfurnished and these days it makes little difference to the landlords or tenants rights whether a property is unfurnished, in UK.
> Taking your leather suite to Spain would be a burden, especially as almost all properties are both let and sold, fully furnished. It would be easier to sell the suite on Ebay with a reserve price, buyer to collect.


A few thoughts...

We had properties we let in the UK and abroad some years ago. Even with good references you are taking a risk. After a few years we decided the profit wasn't worth the hassle so sold.
When we left the UK we put our house on the market but didn't want to leave it empty so let it on a six month unfurnished tenancy through a very reputable local estate management agency. They selected a tenant, a Polish woman, who had impeccable references. The agency agreed to collect and transfer rent, arrange for transfer of utilities, payment of tax due and so on. For this they took a hefty percentage.
We discovered that as soon as she moved in, the woman sublet every single room. Someone in the house opened my mail and stole a credit card and PIN and used it to get £5k from cashpoints (I had given the bank my new address so the fault was theirs). She moved out owing a month's rent. We were happy to get the house off our hands to the first buyer. 
So...even if you have a reputedly good agent, you need someone you trust to check on things.
These days you have to have all sorts of safety devices in situ...carbon monoxide detectors, smoke alarms, all good things. You have to pay tax on the rent you receive, insurance is expensive and if you don't own the house your mortgage company may not be happy. So selling might be worth considering. I personally think renting is a nightmare. I'd never do it again.
We brought the whole contents of our house with us when we left as we thought we'd settle more easily with familiar things around us. 
But not everyone thinks like that. It depends on the person. I hate the process of moving anyway.


----------



## alborino

Terdave said:


> ....she thinks sell our house then go to Spain, rent for the first year then after we have found the right area and house, buy one. ....


Seriously if you're thinking of renting for less than 2 years then it isn't worth the hassle. You will ideally need to sell, get the money, deposit it in Spain --- and then in Spain you will be cash buyers. That could take 6 months minimum.

You certainly do not want to find your dream home, rent it for a month, but then have to wait to out sitting tenents and for a UK sale, managed while you are abroad, before you can buy. Even on deposit in the UK you can get 0.5% interest easily on your cash. 

Remember in Spain cash is king


----------



## Terdave

mrypg9 said:


> A few thoughts...
> 
> We had properties we let in the UK and abroad some years ago. Even with good references you are taking a risk. After a few years we decided the profit wasn't worth the hassle so sold.
> When we left the UK we put our house on the market but didn't want to leave it empty so let it on a six month unfurnished tenancy through a very reputable local estate management agency. They selected a tenant, a Polish woman, who had impeccable references. The agency agreed to collect and transfer rent, arrange for transfer of utilities, payment of tax due and so on. For this they took a hefty percentage.
> We discovered that as soon as she moved in, the woman sublet every single room. Someone in the house opened my mail and stole a credit card and PIN and used it to get £5k from cashpoints (I had given the bank my new address so the fault was theirs). She moved out owing a month's rent. We were happy to get the house off our hands to the first buyer.
> So...even if you have a reputedly good agent, you need someone you trust to check on things.
> These days you have to have all sorts of safety devices in situ...carbon monoxide detectors, smoke alarms, all good things. You have to pay tax on the rent you receive, insurance is expensive and if you don't own the house your mortgage company may not be happy. So selling might be worth considering. I personally think renting is a nightmare. I'd never do it again.
> We brought the whole contents of our house with us when we left as we thought we'd settle more easily with familiar things around us.
> But not everyone thinks like that. It depends on the person. I hate the process of moving anyway.


Sorry you had a bad experience, but we have to stress that there are good tenents out there as well, it's just knowing at the time, maybe having a crystal ball would help which one is right or not.
letting our property is still an option, but we are still in the early stages of research, when we went to Alicante we viewed this house and I fell in love with it, only when we talked things over later in the evening we changed our minds, other wise we might of considered it.
Did you drive a van yourself or get removal men in to take your furniture to Spain.
One point we have heard if you buy property in Spain or anywhere, is if they say it's sold furnished check to make sure they meant the furniture that you have viewed in the house, as we have heard they sometimes change this to flat packs 
unopened. I know this has nothing to do with you but just thought I would throw it out there


----------



## Terdave

alborino said:


> Seriously if you're thinking of renting for less than 2 years then it isn't worth the hassle. You will ideally need to sell, get the money, deposit it in Spain --- and then in Spain you will be cash buyers. That could take 6 months minimum.
> 
> You certainly do not want to find your dream home, rent it for a month, but then have to wait to out sitting tenents and for a UK sale, managed while you are abroad, before you can buy. Even on deposit in the UK you can get 0.5% interest easily on your cash.
> 
> Remember in Spain cash is king


If we do not let then yes we would sell our house put the funiture in storage, as you say cash is king, we want to be cash buyers. we were looking for a house in Spain when we went to Alicante, but it's more to do with finding the area than the house, we wanted to see what the Spanish houses were like inside, when we visit again we will not view any houses as this is not fair on the people selling only to find the area


----------



## mrypg9

Terdave said:


> Sorry you had a bad experience, but we have to stress that there are good tenents out there as well, it's just knowing at the time, maybe having a crystal ball would help which one is right or not.
> letting our property is still an option, but we are still in the early stages of research, when we went to Alicante we viewed this house and I fell in love with it, only when we talked things over later in the evening we changed our minds, other wise we might of considered it.
> Did you drive a van yourself or get removal men in to take your furniture to Spain.
> One point we have heard if you buy property in Spain or anywhere, is if they say it's sold furnished check to make sure they meant the furniture that you have viewed in the house, as we have heard they sometimes change this to flat packs
> unopened. I know this has nothing to do with you but just thought I would throw it out there


Yes, we had some good tenants. I became friendly with one set who rented our house in Canada and stayed with them in their house after they moved out.

We took the entire contents of a three bedroomed cottage with us to Prague where we lived before moving to Spain. Then we brought everything here to Spain.

We made the mistake of taking the cheapest quote to shift our stuff to Prague. We discovered later that the UK company took our stuff only as far as the other side of the Channel. It was then picked up by a Czech company, a bunch of cowboys. 
Like you we had good furniture ad two leather sofas. The Czech guys slashed wildly with box cutters and managed to damage one of the sofas.....
So when we moved within the Czech Republic and three years later to Spain we used reputable companies, first Pickfords then for our move to Spain AGS, a French company.
These firms were much more expensive but worth every last cent. When we move again I'll use AGS. They were superb. The same guys packed our stuff in Prague and came with it to Spain. They unpacked and took all the boxes etc. away. 
If you value your stuff, don't go for the cheapest!


----------



## Terdave

mrypg9 said:


> Yes, we had some good tenants. I became friendly with one set who rented our house in Canada and stayed with them in their house after they moved out.
> 
> We took the entire contents of a three bedroomed cottage with us to Prague where we lived before moving to Spain. Then we brought everything here to Spain.
> 
> We made the mistake of taking the cheapest quote to shift our stuff to Prague. We discovered later that the UK company took our stuff only as far as the other side of the Channel. It was then picked up by a Czech company, a bunch of cowboys.
> Like you we had good furniture ad two leather sofas. The Czech guys slashed wildly with box cutters and managed to damage one of the sofas.....
> So when we moved within the Czech Republic and three years later to Spain we used reputable companies, first Pickfords then for our move to Spain AGS, a French company.
> These firms were much more expensive but worth every last cent. When we move again I'll use AGS. They were superb. The same guys packed our stuff in Prague and came with it to Spain. They unpacked and took all the boxes etc. away.
> If you value your stuff, don't go for the cheapest!


Cheers for that advice, we moved here by pickfords, when we moved here and I lost my wedding ring, am sure it was one of the lads they hired for that day. sometimes it's best to have a local small company as these you can trust more, everyone working for them are on the books, as large removal firms only employ the driver and hire staff in the area of one house, then hire new staff for the other area, all from agencies. but moving to Spain might not be an option. I will keep it in mind when moving. had a look on the web site and saved it, thanks


----------



## mrypg9

Terdave said:


> Cheers for that advice, we moved here by pickfords, when we moved here and I lost my wedding ring, am sure it was one of the lads they hired for that day. sometimes it's best to have a local small company as these you can trust more, everyone working for them are on the books, as large removal firms only employ the driver and hire staff in the area of one house, then hire new staff for the other area, all from agencies. but moving to Spain might not be an option. I will keep it in mind when moving. had a look on the web site and saved it, thanks


AGS have only permanent trained staff. if you can find a local company that you know will take your stuff all the way and not hand it over to another firm once it's left Dover, all well and good.
I'm surprised to hear that Pickfords use temporary labour.


----------



## Terdave

mrypg9 said:


> AGS have only permanent trained staff. if you can find a local company that you know will take your stuff all the way and not hand it over to another firm once it's left Dover, all well and good.
> I'm surprised to hear that Pickfords use temporary labour.


Pickfords did when we moved here, it was 17 years ago, I bet it's run just the same now, If anyone knows different please tell.


----------



## baldilocks

To move to Spain we hired a van and drove ourselves thereby having full control over our valuables. An advantage of moving yourself is you can bring special plants that you might want to keep. For example we a have a hibiscus that we will have had 25 years next Easter.


----------



## Lynn R

Our situation was a bit different in that we'd bought our Spanish house nearly 4 years before moving over full time, and we'd already got it pretty much fully furnished (having replaced what bits the elderly Spanish couple we bought it from left behind). So we didn't need to bring much furniture with us.

We did consider hiring a van and driving the stuff over ourselves (well, my OH driving it that is, as I can`t) or even buying one and selling it at a later date, but decided against it as we were worried about the security of our stuff en route especially if we had a couple of overnight stays to break up the journey, or the possibility of having to cope with a breakdown or accident. So we used a small Spanish based removal company run by a British guy, although we packed everything ourselves, and if I remember rightly it cost less than the cost of van hire, ferry, fuel, tolls and overnight accommodation would have. All our 63 boxes of stuff arrived safely with no breakages.

I was working right up to the date of our move, and would not give in my notice until the sale of our UK house had actually completed, having heard too many horror stories of sales falling through, or buyers trying it on by lowering their offer for spurious reasons, at the last minute. So we booked our flights for completion day, I took a week's holiday to be there to get our stuff received and unpacked, then went back to the UK for a few weeks and stayed with my Dad to work my notice period, whilst my OH held the fort at this end. If the sale had fallen through for some reason, I thought at least I'd still have a job whilst we found another buyer, but luckily it didn't.


----------



## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> To move to Spain we hired a van and drove ourselves thereby having full control over our valuables. An advantage of moving yourself is you can bring special plants that you might want to keep. For example we a have a hibiscus that we will have had 25 years next Easter.


Well, I'm all for DIY when possible..but can't see myself at the wheel of a 20 tonne truck...


----------



## Terdave

baldilocks said:


> To move to Spain we hired a van and drove ourselves thereby having full control over our valuables. An advantage of moving yourself is you can bring special plants that you might want to keep. For example we a have a hibiscus that we will have had 25 years next Easter.


We had thought about hiring a van, am I right in saying that you can hire one way, i.e. pick up England drop it off in Spain. But not sure but I think you can only drive up to 3.5 tons otherwise you need a CPC licence. I have got a HGV 1 but even I might find it hard to hire something larger than that, then you have to weigh up the added cost as Lynn.R has mentioned, Depends how much you have.


----------



## Terdave

Lynn R said:


> Our situation was a bit different in that we'd bought our Spanish house nearly 4 years before moving over full time, and we'd already got it pretty much fully furnished (having replaced what bits the elderly Spanish couple we bought it from left behind). So we didn't need to bring much furniture with us.
> 
> We did consider hiring a van and driving the stuff over ourselves (well, my OH driving it that is, as I can`t) or even buying one and selling it at a later date, but decided against it as we were worried about the security of our stuff en route especially if we had a couple of overnight stays to break up the journey, or the possibility of having to cope with a breakdown or accident. So we used a small Spanish based removal company run by a British guy, although we packed everything ourselves, and if I remember rightly it cost less than the cost of van hire, ferry, fuel, tolls and overnight accommodation would have. All our 63 boxes of stuff arrived safely with no breakages.
> 
> I was working right up to the date of our move, and would not give in my notice until the sale of our UK house had actually completed, having heard too many horror stories of sales falling through, or buyers trying it on by lowering their offer for spurious reasons, at the last minute. So we booked our flights for completion day, I took a week's holiday to be there to get our stuff received and unpacked, then went back to the UK for a few weeks and stayed with my Dad to work my notice period, whilst my OH held the fort at this end. If the sale had fallen through for some reason, I thought at least I'd still have a job whilst we found another buyer, but luckily it didn't.


Just read your post again, you say that you bought your house in Spain nearly 4 years before moving over full time, Do you mind if I ask if this was your intention to live in Spain, when you both bought that house, or was it a holiday home and you thought, do you know what, we love it out here so much, let's move over full time.


----------



## Dave and Anne Galicia

Rent or sell UK house? We have now rented our UK house for 6 years with very little problem, using a local agent. Perhaps we have been lucky. However, the rental income, whilst important, is not an essential part of our budget to live in Spain. If it was, and we were to find ourselves in financial difficulty with a tennant not paying the rent we would probably have sleepless nights. 

If you can keep the UK house I would recommend you to do so. In the long term a permanent return to the UK may prove financially very difficult - selling your Spanish property, house price rises in UK, exchange rates.

If you decide to sell your UK property timing is very important. You do not want to sell in the same Spanish tax year as you become tax resident here otherwise you may get hit with Spanish CGT on the UK house - at least that is my understanding. Equally, if you become tax resident here, rent your UK house and later decide to sell you would be liable to Spanish CGT. The taxation of long term rental income in Spain is quite generous. Spanish IHT is a problem that needs carefully thought.

Having said all that, if you feel strongly about a life change go for it and good luck.

Personally , rent UK, rent Spain, remain UK tax resident for a least a year and do the research.


----------



## Lynn R

Terdave said:


> Just read your post again, you say that you bought your house in Spain nearly 4 years before moving over full time, Do you mind if I ask if this was your intention to live in Spain, when you both bought that house, or was it a holiday home and you thought, do you know what, we love it out here so much, let's move over full time.


We bought it with every intention of moving over here permanently as soon as we were able to (but due to hard cold reality we knew we couldn't give up our jobs and move until we had sufficient funds to enable us to live on until our pensions became payable). I was 47 when we bought it and hoped maybe to be able to move when I was 55, using the house for holidays in the meantime (plus we had most of the renovation work we wanted to do to it done whilst we still had two salaries coming in and wouldn't have to live in a building site whilst it was done!). So we looked for a place which would be big enough for us to live in full time, whereas if it had been just as a holiday home we might have looked for something smaller or in a different location.

Due to an unusal combination of circumstance (house prices in our area of the UK experienced a sudden sharp rise from previous very low levels, plus both our fathers died within 12 months and left us some money) we realised that we could make the leap 5 years sooner than we'd thought, so we thought sod it, let's do it, and have never regretted it. We could have done without the sharp fall in the exchange rate and the interest rate on our savings which started not long after we moved, but fortunately I erred on the conservative side when doing my sums so we have been OK.


----------



## Terdave

Dave and Anne Galicia said:


> Rent or sell UK house? We have now rented our UK house for 6 years with very little problem, using a local agent. Perhaps we have been lucky. However, the rental income, whilst important, is not an essential part of our budget to live in Spain. If it was, and we were to find ourselves in financial difficulty with a tennant not paying the rent we would probably have sleepless nights.
> 
> If you can keep the UK house I would recommend you to do so. In the long term a permanent return to the UK may prove financially very difficult - selling your Spanish property, house price rises in UK, exchange rates.
> 
> If you decide to sell your UK property timing is very important. You do not want to sell in the same Spanish tax year as you become tax resident here otherwise you may get hit with Spanish CGT on the UK house - at least that is my understanding. Equally, if you become tax resident here, rent your UK house and later decide to sell you would be liable to Spanish CGT. The taxation of long term rental income in Spain is quite generous. Spanish IHT is a problem that needs carefully thought.
> 
> Having said all that, if you feel strongly about a life change go for it and good luck.
> 
> Personally , rent UK, rent Spain, remain UK tax resident for a least a year and do the research.


Thank you for your post, you have made some valid points, We are not against letting our house here in England, we both think it's a good idea as I have said to a previous post, He was saying it worked for them,and I am pleased it has and they are both happy, But what has stopped us is, we would like to buy a house or Villa with a large garden, maybe a swimming pool and we feel that to rent one of these in Spain, may cost more than what rent we collect on our Property here, so that was why we changed our minds.
We then thought only yesterday, why not rent an apartment in Spain and move around to find the right location,all this might take 2 years then let our house out not furnished, as we would put it all in storage.
as I said, You have made a valid point, We would both be Spanish residents, so if we sold our house here in England, we would have to pay Spanish CGT on it and therefore have less money to purchase a house in Spain, it's bad enough with tax payable when you purchase a house in Spain without having to pay CGT.
Our long term plan is to buy a Spanish property I understand your point about keep our house here so if we find we have to move back and unable to sell our property in Spain at least you have got somewhere to live, But we think, just us I suppose, we could not live in that house again after letting it out, this is more the reason to make sure we are doing the right thing, but who knows what the future will bring, i,e, family back home


----------



## Terdave

Lynn R said:


> We bought it with every intention of moving over here permanently as soon as we were able to (but due to hard cold reality we knew we couldn't give up our jobs and move until we had sufficient funds to enable us to live on until our pensions became payable). I was 47 when we bought it and hoped maybe to be able to move when I was 55, using the house for holidays in the meantime (plus we had most of the renovation work we wanted to do to it done whilst we still had two salaries coming in and wouldn't have to live in a building site whilst it was done!). So we looked for a place which would be big enough for us to live in full time, whereas if it had been just as a holiday home we might have looked for something smaller or in a different location.
> 
> Due to an unusal combination of circumstance (house prices in our area of the UK experienced a sudden sharp rise from previous very low levels, plus both our fathers died within 12 months and left us some money) we realised that we could make the leap 5 years sooner than we'd thought, so we thought sod it, let's do it, and have never regretted it. We could have done without the sharp fall in the exchange rate and the interest rate on our savings which started not long after we moved, but fortunately I erred on the conservative side when doing my sums so we have been OK.


Pleased that everthing has worked out for you both and thank you for replying.
Question is when is the timing right, go too early and get into financial trouble or leave it too late and wished you had moved earlier.
We don't intend to work in Spain so will depend entirely on savings and pensions. not that there is any work out there, as 25% of Spanish people are out of work.
I take it that all those kind people who have replied to me are not working, am I right.
When we next return to Spain in March we hope to have a better idea on the what we hope to do.


----------



## Lynn R

Terdave said:


> I take it that all those kind people who have replied to me are not working, am I right.
> .


We're certainly not, work is a very overrated pastime as far as I'm concerned.

Seriously, though, I don't know of any other way to make the decision other than to take the number of years you have to go before receiving your pension(s), work out how much money you think you will need to live comfortably on per year (and that amount will be different for every single person since we all have different tastes and spending patterns), multiply the number of years by the annual amount (plus a decent contingency fund of course) - and then, once you have made the move, keep your eye on what you're spending to make sure you're staying within your comfort zone. Unless you've won the lottery it's unlikely that you will be able to live here permanently as though you were on holiday, eating out every day and so on (and personally I'd find that a bit wearing after a while as I like to relax at home). I have seen quite a few people go through their cash far too fast by doing that.


----------



## Terdave

Lynn R said:


> We're certainly not, work is a very overrated pastime as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> Seriously, though, I don't know of any other way to make the decision other than to take the number of years you have to go before receiving your pension(s), work out how much money you think you will need to live comfortably on per year (and that amount will be different for every single person since we all have different tastes and spending patterns), multiply the number of years by the annual amount (plus a decent contingency fund of course) - and then, once you have made the move, keep your eye on what you're spending to make sure you're staying within your comfort zone. Unless you've won the lottery it's unlikely that you will be able to live here permanently as though you were on holiday, eating out every day and so on (and personally I'd find that a bit wearing after a while as I like to relax at home). I have seen quite a few people go through their cash far too fast by doing that.


Yes I agree with you and Jealous of you both, Sorry you had to mention your fathers hope that was not too painful for you both.
I have done the maths but all this tax on this, tax on that, holds me back, i,e, I have a stocks and shares ISA, will I be able to keep that as that gives me an income tax free here, but in Spain I will have to pay tax on this, I know it all depends if we exceed out tax allowances, I might have to cash them in anyway when we move.
I have to go now, some of us have to work


----------



## stevesainty

Mitigate you first year's tax burden.
Arrive in Spain no earlier than 1st week in July.
You will not become tax resident in Spain until the following January.
You will still receive a full year's personal tax allowance in UK even though you will only be there for 3 months, 6 April until day you leave.
Liability for tax in Spain will not begin until your first January and will run until your second December. You will not file a return in Spain until your second June.
If you sell your house in UK make sure you sell it before you become tax resident in Spain to avoid Capital gains tax in Spain; you will still incur Capital gains tax in UK but the allowances are more generous.
As a general rule of thumb, income tax allowances in Spain would cover the equivalent of a UK old age pension. If your savings and pension income are around this figure there would be little tax to pay.
Timing of your move to Spain is critical to mitigate your tax burden; search for articles about this here and also on other fora.

Good luck, and don't let it all do your head in. You do not need to re invent the wheel. Use other people's experiences to aid your decisions; but remember all the decisions are yours and your wife's to make.


----------



## Terdave

stevesainty said:


> Mitigate you first year's tax burden.
> Arrive in Spain no earlier than 1st week in July.
> You will not become tax resident in Spain until the following January.
> You will still receive a full year's personal tax allowance in UK even though you will only be there for 3 months, 6 April until day you leave.
> Liability for tax in Spain will not begin until your first January and will run until your second December. You will not file a return in Spain until your second June.
> If you sell your house in UK make sure you sell it before you become tax resident in Spain to avoid Capital gains tax in Spain; you will still incur Capital gains tax in UK but the allowances are more generous.
> As a general rule of thumb, income tax allowances in Spain would cover the equivalent of a UK old age pension. If your savings and pension income are around this figure there would be little tax to pay.
> Timing of your move to Spain is critical to mitigate your tax burden; search for articles about this here and also on other fora.
> 
> Good luck, and don't let it all do your head in. You do not need to re invent the wheel. Use other people's experiences to aid your decisions; but remember all the decisions are yours and your wife's to make.


You make very good points and I will take it all on board what you have said, thank you.
We have made our minds up and will make the move to Spain, but I have quite a lot of finances to sort out, and with all your imput and other peoples input on this board it has all helped, which only proves this is a very good site for people like myself and others who find they have 1001 questions and one day we hope to be a expat to give advise to people who want to make move to Spain.
Merry Christmas everyone.


----------



## Mickeyfinch

Hi we have been finding out about moving to spain just the same as you .all the boxes are ticked but I'm 69 now and still working self employed as a plumber and heating engineer so moving to spain means two things for me,retiring and retiring in a new country. I would realy like to know what make that final decision the final reason for leaving everything your familiar with and come to know. Can some one help us out hear. We spent four weeks this year in Spain looking for the right area


----------



## Expatliving

stevesainty said:


> Mitigate you first year's tax burden.
> Arrive in Spain no earlier than 1st week in July.
> You will not become tax resident in Spain until the following January.
> You will still receive a full year's personal tax allowance in UK even though you will only be there for 3 months, 6 April until day you leave.
> Liability for tax in Spain will not begin until your first January and will run until your second December. You will not file a return in Spain until your second June.
> If you sell your house in UK make sure you sell it before you become tax resident in Spain to avoid Capital gains tax in Spain; you will still incur Capital gains tax in UK but the allowances are more generous.
> As a general rule of thumb, income tax allowances in Spain would cover the equivalent of a UK old age pension. If your savings and pension income are around this figure there would be little tax to pay.
> Timing of your move to Spain is critical to mitigate your tax burden; search for articles about this here and also on other fora.
> 
> Good luck, and don't let it all do your head in. You do not need to re invent the wheel. Use other people's experiences to aid your decisions; but remember all the decisions are yours and your wife's to make.


Interesting reply, but as far as I'm aware you do not have to pay CGT on your UK home you're selling if you've lived there constantly, not let it out, or used part of it specifically for business reasons & the house/flat is not the size of an aircraft hanger. That's what is quoted on the UK Gov' website which is up to date. Cheers


----------



## Terdave

Mickeyfinch said:


> Hi we have been finding out about moving to spain just the same as you .all the boxes are ticked but I'm 69 now and still working self employed as a plumber and heating engineer so moving to spain means two things for me,retiring and retiring in a new country. I would realy like to know what make that final decision the final reason for leaving everything your familiar with and come to know. Can some one help us out hear. We spent four weeks this year in Spain looking for the right area


Hi, Well we looked at Spain because:-

1, We have family who emigrated to Canada and we do not see very much of them now and to be honest we believe they wished they had not made the move, as it's too far away and cost more if you want to fly home again or family and friends to visit them.

2, We wanted somewhere close to home, so If we have to return home fast, because of some one ill in the family, a funeral or wedding then we can, or even just visit, or them to visit us.

3, Southern Spain has the temperature that we feel we would like.

4, We have checked the airports, Alicante, malaga, Almeria and Murcia all have daily cheap flights available.

5, Cost of living is cheap, so makes it easier to give up work and retire early.

6, As I have said before on this board, I have broken my hip, I am able to walk now fine without a stick, even walk miles, but I suffer from Arthritis now, any one will tell you in winter it hurts more, Spanish weather suits me better.

7, 2 and1/2 hours flight time.

8, Spanish people seem friendly,

9, We like the Spains culture.

This is our view why we have picked Spain, maybe some one else on this board will say why they picked Spain for different reasons, we all have different views, just a case of where in Spain to live, and be able to get to the airports I have stated if we have to.

Merry Christmas


----------



## Terdave

Expatliving said:


> Interesting reply, but as far as I'm aware you do not have to pay CGT on your UK home you're selling if you've lived there constantly, not let it out, or used part of it specifically for business reasons & the house/flat is not the size of an aircraft hanger. That's what is quoted on the UK Gov' website which is up to date. Cheers


It was me who brought up CGT if we sold our house while living in Spain, I was under the assumption that if you have lived in Spain and become a Spanish resident then you are under Spanish tax law, so all our assets are accountable where ever they are, If we sold a Spanish home we would have to pay CGT and on our UK home, same as inheritance tax if one of us died the other half has to pay 3% I think.
I am just the thick kid at the back at the class so if some one can help us out please do so we can clear this up.


----------



## Expatliving

Terdave said:


> It was me who brought up CGT if we sold our house while living in Spain, I was under the assumption that if you have lived in Spain and become a Spanish resident then you are under Spanish tax law, so all our assets are accountable where ever they are, If we sold a Spanish home we would have to pay CGT and on our UK home, same as inheritance tax if one of us died the other half has to pay 3% I think.
> I am just the thick kid at the back at the class so if some one can help us out please do so we can clear this up.


Hello Dave

I think Steve mentioned it in the thread regarding a UK house sale and CGT, however, you really do have to be careful with UK and worldwide assets once you sign up for taxation in Spain. That is why there was a higher glut of returns last summer, all those assets suddenly needed to be declared ... Which some people simply aren't prepared to do.

With regards to where you pitch a tent? The one thing I've learnt is there is a massive difference between locations and resorts, compared with towns etc. Some places are deserted from November until the end of April, choose carefully.


----------



## Terdave

Expatliving said:


> Hello Dave
> 
> I think Steve mentioned it in the thread regarding a UK house sale and CGT, however, you really do have to be careful with UK and worldwide assets once you sign up for taxation in Spain. That is why there was a higher glut of returns last summer, all those assets suddenly needed to be declared ... Which some people simply aren't prepared to do.
> 
> With regards to where you pitch a tent? The one thing I've learnt is there is a massive difference between locations and resorts, compared with towns etc. Some places are deserted from November until the end of April, choose carefully.


If I become a Spanish resident am I automatically under Spanish Taxation, as I have said in my previous post I want to apply for residency to get the Spanish health at 60e each as I have no choice.

Regarding locations this was why we had a visit December and will return in March to to see more of the local pace of life and not go when every tom dick and harry are having a holiday there.
Last time we went we did not have a hire car so estate agents, buses and taxis where the only transport we had, we only went for three nights.
This time we will not look at houses but concentrate more on towns and communities so we will hire a car from the airport and visit as much as we can.
Yes we are aware houses are cheaper the further away from the sea you are. We hope to try and keep at least 1/2 an hours drive from the sea.


----------



## xabiaxica

Terdave said:


> If I become a Spanish resident am I automatically under Spanish Taxation, as I have said in my previous post I want to apply for residency to get the Spanish health at 60e each as I have no choice.
> 
> Regarding locations this was why we had a visit December and will return in March to to see more of the local pace of life and not go when every tom dick and harry are having a holiday there.
> Last time we went we did not have a hire car so estate agents, buses and taxis where the only transport we had, we only went for three nights.
> This time we will not look at houses but concentrate more on towns and communities so we will hire a car from the airport and visit as much as we can.
> Yes we are aware houses are cheaper the further away from the sea you are. We hope to try and keep at least 1/2 an hours drive from the sea.


being a registered resident & tax resident are two different & unconnected things

generally speaking, you are automatically tax resident once you have been in Spain 183 *cumulative* days Jan 1st to Dec 31st

the Spanish govt requires that you register as resident if you are, or intend to be, in Spain for 90+ *consecutive* days - as an EU citizen you don't have to apply for anything - just to register as required


----------



## Terdave

xabiachica said:


> being a registered resident & tax resident are two different & unconnected things
> 
> generally speaking, you are automatically tax resident once you have been in Spain 183 *cumulative* days Jan 1st to Dec 31st
> 
> the Spanish govt requires that you register as resident if you are, or intend to be, in Spain for 90+ *consecutive* days - as an EU citizen you don't have to apply for anything - just to register as required


Thick kid at the back of the class (me) is asking, if you have been in Spain accumulating 183 days in the calender year and you register, I will not be under UK tax law but Spain's. so any assets over 50000e or £33000 anywhere in the world have to be declared. if I am right then this is why I was saying, if I was going to sell my house in the UK, then do it before we register, not only that but being a cash buyer is better when buying a house over in Spain.
I was not saying you have to register, I was only talking about myself as it would be best under my circumstances


----------



## xabiaxica

Terdave said:


> Thick kid at the back of the class (me) is asking, if you have been in Spain accumulating 183 days in the calender year and you register, I will not be under UK tax law but Spain's. so any assets over 50000e or £33000 anywhere in the world have to be declared. if I am right then this is why I was saying, if I was going to sell my house in the UK, then do it before we register, not only that but being a cash buyer is better when buying a house over in Spain.
> I was not saying you have to register, I was only talking about myself as it would be best under my circumstances


no - tax has nothing to do with registering as resident - as I said - they are two totally different things & not connected in any way

if you are tax resident then you are tax resident - the countdown starts from the day you land in Spain - not from when you register or anything else


----------



## Terdave

xabiachica said:


> no - tax has nothing to do with registering as resident - as I said - they are two totally different things & not connected in any way
> 
> if you are tax resident then you are tax resident - the countdown starts from the day you land in Spain - not from when you register or anything else


well ok, I know I have been going on about if I register then I am under the Spanish tax laws but I just thought as soon as you have been in Spain for 183 days in any calender year (Jan to end Dec) then you have to pay their tax.
Is that right?


----------



## xabiaxica

Terdave said:


> well ok, I know I have been going on about if I register then I am under the Spanish tax laws but I just thought as soon as you have been in Spain for 183 days in any calender year (Jan to end Dec) then you have to pay their tax.
> Is that right?


no............again.............. registering as resident doesn't necessarily make you tax resident

the only thing which does that is if you spend 183+ days here in a tax year - & then yes, you have to make a tax declaration


----------



## Terdave

xabiachica said:


> no............again.............. registering as resident doesn't necessarily make you tax resident
> 
> the only thing which does that is if you spend 183+ days here in a tax year - & then yes, you have to make a tax declaration


Thank you for your reply but I thought I said that, just forgot to put the + after the 183 days, plus it's not the registering but the time spent in Spain, maybe my typing comes out different to saying it.


----------



## Terdave

Lets get this sorted.

You will become resident for tax purposes in Spain if:

You spend more than 183 days in Spain during one calendar year. You become liable whether or not you take out a formal residence permit (Residencia). These days do not have to be consecutive. You do not become resident for tax purposes until the morning of the 184th day. Temporary absences from Spain are ignored for the purpose of the 183-day rule unless it can be proved that the individual is habitually resident in another country for more than 183 days in a calendar year, or You arrive in Spain with an intention to reside there indefinitely. You will then be tax-resident from the day after you arrive. Obtaining a residence permit is evidence of an intention to stay, and will count against any claim that you are not liable for Spanish tax, or If your “centre of vital interests” is Spain. This is a relatively new rule and is hardly ever applied, or Unless proven otherwise, you are presumed to be a Spanish resident if your spouse lives in Spain and you are not legally separated even though you may spend less than 183 days in Spain.

A Spanish tax year is the same as a calendar year (1st January to 31st December), unlike the UK tax year which is from 6th April to the following 5th April.

If you are resident in Spain you will be liable for income, capitals gains and succession duty (inheritance tax) on your worldwide assets. This is in addition to other incidental tax liabilities such as IVA (VAT) and gift taxes. It is worth noting that gift tax and inheritance tax in Spain are payable by the receiver of the gift or inheritance.

If you live on a boat within 12 nautical miles of Spanish land, you are a Spanish tax resident. A day within 12 nautical miles is a day spent in Spain for tax purposes.

The link for this is;_

Hot Topics - Residence & Tax - Residency


----------



## rewdan

Terdave said:


> Lets get this sorted.
> 
> You will become resident for tax purposes in Spain if:
> 
> You arrive in Spain with an intention to reside there indefinitely. You will then be tax-resident from the day after you arrive.
> 
> 
> The link for this is;_
> 
> Hot Topics - Residence & Tax - Residency


Whilst I am aware of the rest of this quote being correct, can anyone confirm if the above snippet is true. I am concerned that it could imply anyone moving to Spain on say December 25th 2014 could be held tax resident for the whole of 2014 if they intend to reside in Spain indefinitely.


----------



## snikpoh

rewdan said:


> Whilst I am aware of the rest of this quote being correct, can anyone confirm if the above snippet is true. I am concerned that it could imply anyone moving to Spain on say December 25th 2014 could be held tax resident for the whole of 2014 if they intend to reside in Spain indefinitely.


I saw that too but didn't comment. I can't believe that it can be true.

I know that if your 'centre of economic interests' are here, then you will be deemed resident (for tax purposes) irrespective of the 183 day rule but I can't see how it can be applied from day 1. 

How could they even go about proving it?


----------



## Calas felices

"How could they even go about proving it? "
Spain doesn't seem that hot on proving things - it's modus operandi seems to be to make an allegation and then let the accused try their best to prove their way out of it.


----------



## Rabbitcat

How do they prove the 183 days?


----------



## xabiaxica

Rabbitcat said:


> How do they prove the 183 days?


sa cala felices sad - it's up to you to prove that you *weren't* here, rather than for them to prove that you were - should questions be asked


----------



## Rabbitcat

I see. Buy why would questions be asked?


----------



## Leper

Rabbitcat said:


> I see. Buy why would questions be asked?


We (veterans of Spanish living) at least have learnt one thing:- The Psyche of Paddy-the-Spaniard is much different from Mick-the-Brit (no offence to any Spaniards or Brits). But, sometimes the person looking in here misses the obvious. If you think you are going to be fleeced in Spain the probability is that you will be fleeced.

I digress, so back to the Spanish psyche. Paddy-the-Spaniard (property owner) wakes up every day and because rental prices were on the rise continuously for years he thinks that gullible Brits (and if you think this is racist, I'll include Irish also) will continue to pay increasing rental prices. The recession and general sickness of the Spanish economical situation has nothing to do with the Spaniard's thinking. We've always had increase in rental prices so why should we reduce prices now? Add in the Spanish inability to come to terms with their political/economic situation and you have two trains coming down the same track at speed in opposite directions. Time to phone your uncle, because he never saw two trains collide.

So Mick-the-Brit comes to Spain, spends his hard earned money and decides to stay on (even still augmenting the Spanish economy) and the Spanish government wants to penalise him. Where else would you get it? Tell you one thing, if Mick the Brit came to Ireland and wants to spend and spend; we'll keep him. You see, we Irish have the ability to pull ourselves out of recession (we've been doing it for hundreds of years, you know!) and recognise that we need spenders. Spain was once a world power (God knows how these are still the same people!).

Perhaps they still think they are a world power? Even some Brits think they are still a world power. Many refuse to see the obvious i.e. the Spaniards have the unenviable quality of continuously shooting themselves in the foot and then blaming the person who sold them the gun.

So, sit back, look around you for the obvious. Mick-the-Brit (as soon as he stops looking inward) will organize other Brits to fight for lower rental prices to run their bars. This is not difficult when you look at the opposition. Do not pay the increased charges, give up your bar; ensure the other Brits do the same and hey presto! Paddy-the-Spaniard (property owner) inevitably will come with his begging bowl and Mick will have rental at an affordable price.

(apologies for stating the obvious and simplifying the situation)


----------



## Leper

I lost the run of my self in my earlier post inasmuch as I only half answered the questions poised. You are an expat, you've been in Spain for longer than the minimum period required without more Spanish paperwork. You've been renting property (thus augmenting the Spanish coffers plus spending money in local shops etc) and suddenly you feel the Spaniards want to be rid of you. A fair assumption, I reckon! [Remember what I said about their ability to shoot themselves in the foot]. You do not want it "proved" that you were living in Spain beyond the approved timescale. Therefore, leave your rented apartment; inform the real-estate people why you are leaving; pick up (probably cheaper) alternate accommodation by booking privately. Remember you are in Spain long enough and have enough cop-on to know Spain is a renters heaven. Believe me, there is nobody like real-estate agents to scream for repeal of stupid laws when it costs their business.

I love seeing business people squabbling when their business is being challenged. Therefore, if you want to stay in Spain for much longer stay and use their laws against them. Do not ignore the obvious . . .


----------



## extranjero

Rabbitcat said:


> How do they prove the 183 days?


They don't- you have to!
Sorry, just seen earlier similar post


----------



## Rabbitcat

That doesn't really make a lot of sense. Are you saying the authorities at random pick people and ask them to prove how long they have been in Spain?


----------



## alborino

Rabbitcat said:


> That doesn't really make a lot of sense. Are you saying the authorities at random pick people and ask them to prove how long they have been in Spain?


Welcome to Spain. But to be fair that is how it works in the UK and everywhere as far as I know. How else could you do it. You have 25 million potential criminals, you have 1000 employees who each can investigate 500 cases a year = 500000 investigations. And you have a target of money grabbed back of say 50 million Euros. If you don't get that much the job of investigating costs more than the gain - the light is not worth the candle.

Of course there are methods to narrow down suspects. I for sure if I was a member of the Spanish revenue would look for people claiming to be out of the country tax wise.


----------



## CapnBilly

Rabbitcat said:


> That doesn't really make a lot of sense. Are you saying the authorities at random pick people and ask them to prove how long they have been in Spain?


There's a long detailed document on the a Hacienda website which details their Fraud strategy. One example is they receive details of electricity consumption from the utility companies, and compare that to tax returns from the registered owners.


----------



## Rabbitcat

CapnBilly said:


> There's a long detailed document on the a Hacienda website which details their Fraud strategy. One example is they receive details of electricity consumption from the utility companies, and compare that to tax returns from the registered owners.



Excellent. Very cunning- I like it


----------



## alborino

Rabbitcat said:


> Excellent. Very cunning- I like it


It should be renamed "Ripping off the Spanish government for dummies" 

But nothing in Spain surprises me any more


----------

