# Curious about Bull Fighting



## Swiss_Am (Sep 30, 2013)

Hello,

I will be in Madrid at the end of the week and would like to attend a bull fight for the first time at Las Ventas. I have a few questions before I go.

1. The corrida starts at 17:30 but I have to work at the Auditorio National, Príncipe de Vergara, until 18:30. If I get there by, say 19:00 will I get to see at least half of the event or would it be almost over by then?

2. Aside from Hemmingway's Death in the Afternoon, can anyone recommend a good primer to help me understand the spirit of the bull fight? I of course have an idea but would like to read an introduction from someone who knows the history and wants to convey it to a newcomer like myself. I have read plenty anti-corrida arguements and would like to give the pro-side a chance to present its case.

Thanks in advance for your help.

S


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

There are usually six bulls at a corrida so assuming they aren't despatched too quickly, you should get to see something if you arrive at 19.00.

It's hard to find anyone writing in support of bullfighting these days, even amongst the Spanish, but there is a writer called Alexander Fisk-Harrison whose blog you might find interesting.

Is bullfighting an art?

Let us know how you get on and how you feel afterwards!


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## Swiss_Am (Sep 30, 2013)

Thanks for the prompt answer. 

I understand it is getting a lot of bad press and I can imagine the parts of it even deserve that. But I like to make up my mind about something after I have done my due diligence and investigated both sides thoroughly. 

I'd be happy to share my impressions later.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Swiss_Am said:


> Thanks for the prompt answer.
> 
> I understand it is getting a lot of bad press and I can imagine the parts of it even deserve that. But I like to make up my mind about something after I have done my due diligence and investigated both sides thoroughly.
> 
> I'd be happy to share my impressions later.


Yes, I'd be interested in your impressions and especially your feelings.

I acknowledge there is much skill and art involved in the corrida but I can't help thinking that skill and art should never be employed in the killing of a sentient living creature.

Yet I have Spanish friends who are great aficionados and who also have horses, dogs and other animals they look after well and treat with a lot of affection.

I guess I'm biased as I help run an animal shelter and see so much thoughtless cruelty that I can't imagine it as a sport, just as I abhor UK blood sports such as fox hunting, now thankfully made illegal.

But yes, I'd like to hear the 'other' side.


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## Swiss_Am (Sep 30, 2013)

@mrypg9

The points of view I have heard in defense of the corrida so far have been:

1. The bulls are by nature aggresive fighters built for the task of maiming and killing. Like many other animals they will inherently fight each other ruthlessly whereby the suffering that this entails is much greater and longer lasting than it is in the corrida.

2. An animal which is suffering greatly will normally scream and the bulls normally do not scream, they fight. 

3. The 4 year old bulls lead a luxurious life before the fight whereby normal cattle, bred for food, like so many other animals, are living in harsh conditions on a daily basis for years before they are slaughtered in a stressful manner.

4. Bulls have no characteristics of pets and therefore have a different status in relation to human beings.

This being said there is a natural argument on the side of forbidding the unnecessary suffering of an innocent animal. 

I am currently trying to get my head around the idea of bullfightling and am open to both sides of the debate.

I recently came up with the following hypothetical question: 

*If bulls could witness a large number of corridas firsthand as well as the industrial slaughter of the same number of their fellow cattle and then be lead through a chute, the end of which offered them a choice of two equally large gates - one entering that very same ring with a matador, the other that very same slaughter house, which gate would most bulls choose, provided they can't escape and have only these two options from which to choose?*


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## whitenoiz (Sep 18, 2012)

Please don't take this the wrong way but... my hope is that you will come away from the event totally sickened by the slow torture and degradation that occurs.

It's not art, it's not culture, it's not sport, no matter what the aficionados may say, it is merely a tradition that has absolutely no place in today's world. 

Please visit this website,

Accueil

and watch this video...






Together they will give you an insight into the true nature of the Spanish Fighting Bull... and why all is not as it appears in the bullring... 

The only truth in the arena is the death of one of natures most naturally placid animals...


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Swiss_Am said:


> I am currently trying to get my head around the idea of bullfightling and am open to both sides of the debate.
> 
> I recently came up with the following hypothetical question:
> 
> *If bulls could witness a large number of corridas firsthand as well as the industrial slaughter of the same number of their fellow cattle and then be lead through a chute, the end of which offered them a choice of two equally large gates - one entering that very same ring with a matador, the other that very same slaughter house, which gate would most bulls choose, provided they can't escape and have only these two options from which to choose?*


A bit of a poor man's choice I'd say.
Why not put a third choice of Living in a Field with other Bulls?
The choices that are given are rather like those given to Christians in Ancient Rome; which life would you rather live, that of being a slave all your life or fighting a lion to freedom?!
So, the bull has been bred to fight in the bullrings. Well, there are plenty of arguments against that too.

I appreciate what you're trying to do. I did the same myself when I lived in Colombia where there is also bullfighting. I thought it was only right to know what a bullfight was like before I criticised it. I went with a friend who explained the "art" behind the bullfighter's moves. Unlike mrypg9 I was unable to appreciate the art behind killing the bull. I tried to leave, but found all the exits locked once the fight had started so I was forced to sit back down again.

One of the main reasons that bullfighting continues in Spain is that the people behind it belong to old families, families with money and political influence in local economies and in well established national or multinational Spanish businesses. Bullfighting moves money and interests, make no mistake. To really understand it you would have to go behind the scenes and see who is pulling whose strings.

Anyway, you have to make up your own mind and I wouldn't want this thread to become a platform for save the bull as everyone else is being very restrained in their views. Really there is plenty of info on internet in favour of bullfighting although it has to be said there's a lot more against it... 
So go to the bullfight and hope you don't enjoy!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> A bit of a poor man's choice I'd say.
> Why not put a third choice of Living in a Field with other Bulls?
> The choices that are given are rather like those given to Christians in Ancient Rome; which life would you rather live, that of being a slave all your life or fighting a lion to freedom?!
> So, the bull has been bred to fight in the bullrings. Well, there are plenty of arguments against that too.
> ...


This post deserves one hundred 'likes'.

What I would see as the 'art' in the performance is the theatrical side, the costumes, the almost operatic setting. But art is neutral and can be used to serve good and evil alike.


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

Arthur C Clarke wrote, in Childhood's End, when the aliens witnessed a bull fight they simply could not believe it. Where was the fairness they wondered. So in order to even things up a bit, they ensured that everyone in the crowd watching the bull fight felt exactly the same pain as the bull. Bull fighting ceased the world over, practically overnight....


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

I've never been to a bull fight but seen a few on the telly (hard to escape in summer time) and one way of appreciating the art of the torero is to imagine him (or her) being the female partner in a dance with the bull (the male partner). Imagine the red cape to be a skirt being tossed around like in a Spanish gypsy dance, and the torero (dressed in quite an enfeminate way anyway) striking poses to entice and tease the bull.

The toreros who perform in Ventas are the best so usually the kill is quite quick and relatively clean. Worse are the ones that take place during fiestas in pueblos, where the torero is not so adept, and the kill drawn out and brutal.

Personally I'm quite indifferent to bullfighting. Far worse treatment of animals occurs behind closed doors and there have been a few times when I've had to point out to people who oppose bull fighting that the battery farmed chicken they eat, or whose eggs they eat, leads a much worse life than a bull who spends a few years living "free range" before meeting a fate that, while bloody and painful, probably causes less suffering than that which awaits most animals (including people) anyway.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

thrax said:


> Arthur C Clarke wrote, in Childhood's End, when the aliens witnessed a bull fight they simply could not believe it. Where was the fairness they wondered. So in order to even things up a bit, they ensured that everyone in the crowd watching the bull fight felt exactly the same pain as the bull. Bull fighting ceased the world over, practically overnight....


I read that decades ago but I had forgotten which book it was in. Thanks for reminding me.


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## Calas felices (Nov 29, 2007)

I always find it interesting when people try and justify something on the basis 'but .....is worse! There is no art involved in bull fighting nor does the bull fight. 

So an animal screams when it is in pain? Not in Spain - the horses used to scream when they were gored and they have been disembowelled in the past. The Spanish came up with a great solution - cut their vocal cords. Matadors were getting killed - another solution, feed the bulls laxatives to weaken them and then give them drugs. Keep them in the dark and then release them into the bright ring with a crowd baying for their blood. The bulls have a lot of power - another solution - stick daggers into their neck muscles so that they hang their heads and can't see where they are going and eventually they bleed to death. If the matador doesn't get it right, you will see the bull stand still to be killed because of loss of blood. That's where the art comes in - making it look as though it was a fair contest.


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## Swiss_Am (Sep 30, 2013)

@Pesky Wesky

Thanks for your input. I can certainly understand your position but wonder why there seems to be no similar outrage concerning the treatment of cattle for food or pigs and fowl for that matter. Wouldn't that be the logical consequence of this line of reasoning?

BTW I couldn't help but notice the irony in your motto.

"I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be.”


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Swiss_Am said:


> @Pesky Wesky
> 
> Thanks for your input. I can certainly understand your position but wonder why there seems to be no similar outrage concerning the treatment of cattle for food or pigs and fowl for that matter. Wouldn't that be the logical consequence of this line of reasoning?
> 
> ...


I agree about the treatment of cattle for food and if I stood by my convictions I wouldn't be a meat eater - but I am. I don't want to get on my high horse about this and the treatment of animals because I know I'm not perfect. However with bullfighting it's easy for me. I just never got involved, never found it interesting and unlike Chopera I can avoid it easily, even though where I live is the birth place of one of Spain's most celebrated contemporary bullfighters.
But I absolutely agree that it's something that you should experience yourself and make your own mind up about.
BTW I don't understand the reference to my signature...


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Chopera said:


> I've never been to a bull fight but seen a few on the telly (hard to escape in summer time) and one way of appreciating the art of the torero is to imagine him (or her) being the female partner in a dance with the bull (the male partner). Imagine the red cape to be a skirt being tossed around like in a Spanish gypsy dance, and the torero (dressed in quite an enfeminate way anyway) striking poses to entice and tease the bull.


But the thing is I don't want to equate the killing of an animal with a form of art. That to me is the very height of barbarism.


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## Swiss_Am (Sep 30, 2013)

The reference to your motto was about what might be going through a bull's mind.


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## Swiss_Am (Sep 30, 2013)

I once heard a theory that the well organised and highly visible campaign against bullfighting has its roots in the political wrangling between the separatists in Catalonia and the powers that be in Madrid. Bullfighting is according to this theory a symbol of the oppression from Madrid and its banishment from Catalonia a symbolic victory which can inspire the Catalans to take the next steps toward independence. The welfare of all sentient animals wouldn't factor into this strategy since it would weaken the catalan economy.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Swiss_Am said:


> I once heard a theory that the well organised and highly visible campaign against bullfighting has its roots in the political wrangling between the separatists in Catalonia and the powers that be in Madrid. Bullfighting is according to this theory a symbol of the oppression from Madrid and its banishment from Catalonia a symbolic victory which can inspire the Catalans to take the next steps toward independence. The welfare of all sentient animals wouldn't factor into this strategy since it would weaken the catalan economy.


That's true. But Spanish opposition goes well beyond Catalonia. There are animal rights groups all over the country, with increasing numbers of Spaniards protesting just as loudly about inhumane farming methods as they do about bullfighting. 

It's a political issue. Bullfighting is heavily subsidised and breeders even receive EU grants under the Common Agricultural Policy. The figure of half a billion euros p.a. is often quoted.

The breeders are a powerful lobby group with strong ties to the right-wing Partido Popular and its fascist predecessors. A lot of the research about bulls not feeling pain etc. is sponsored by this lobby. Without political support, it would eventually die a natural death.

http://www.greens-efa.eu/fileadmin/dam/Documents/Studies/2013-5 Bullfighting subsidies report.pdf


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> But the thing is I don't want to equate the killing of an animal with a form of art. That to me is the very height of barbarism.


I guess the word "art" can be used as a bi-word/excuse for anything. However I think it is a more appropriate word than "sport" or "contest" (as Calas felices mistakenly thinks it is). After all no-one is pretending the outcome for the bull will be anything other than its death (unless there is something wrong with it). Those who do go to bull fights tell me that they enjoy it as an art form, and the reports of the fights appear in the arts sections of the newspapers. So I think it is fair to say that it is considered more as an art form than anything else. If you view the killing of the bull as an aside to the main spectacle of watching the torero "dance" with the bull, then it might seem more of an art form. However I agree that we're on a slippery slope if we start using "art" as an excuse for causing an animal to suffer - that is not where the art lies in the corrida. Although the audience will always show appreciation for a clean kill, and show disdain if it is handled badly.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Ballet is regarded as art, but it causes horrible defects in dancers' bodies. Likewise there are various sports which would never pass health & safety criteria if they were introduced now.

For the bullfighters, taking risks is part of the art and that is what people pay to see. Call it skill, art or whatever, it has an appeal of its own.

The difference, of course, is that the bull doesn't have a choice.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Swiss_Am said:


> I once heard a theory that the well organised and highly visible campaign against bullfighting has its roots in the political wrangling between the separatists in Catalonia and the powers that be in Madrid. Bullfighting is according to this theory a symbol of the oppression from Madrid and its banishment from Catalonia a symbolic victory which can inspire the Catalans to take the next steps toward independence. The welfare of all sentient animals wouldn't factor into this strategy since it would weaken the catalan economy.


Soon after banning bullfighting Cataluña endorsed their flaming bull festivals, correbous, whereby burning torches are attached to the bull's horns and they chase people around the towns (the bulls often getting burned). They are not as brutal as the corridas, however it did somewhat imply that the motivation behind Cataluña banning bull fights was motivated by politics rather than any real concern for animal welfare.


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

Whether you agree or disagree with bullfighting, the bull that goes in the ring has a much longer life and a pampered one compared to a bull calf bred for beef. The only difference is the way it is killed. There is no nice way of killing anything, it is a gruesome thing to see in a slaughter house, or even on some farms that kill their own meat, whether in Spain or anywhere else. Having worked on farms in my youth I became used to it, but believe me, if many meat eaters ever had to kill an animal for food there would be a lot more vegetarians.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I agree about the treatment of cattle for food and if I stood by my convictions I wouldn't be a meat eater - but I am. I don't want to get on my high horse about this and the treatment of animals because I know I'm not perfect. However with bullfighting it's easy for me. I just never got involved, never found it interesting and unlike Chopera I can avoid it easily, even though where I live is the birth place of one of Spain's most celebrated contemporary bullfighters.
> But I absolutely agree that it's something that you should experience yourself and make your own mind up about.
> BTW I don't understand the reference to my signature...


I think this sums it up. It's easy to criticise something that causes suffering and is of no benefit to you. It's not so easy to give up meat, or only eat free range produce, or try to help relieve the suffering of an elderly person on their own in an old peoples' home. We're all guilty of it. I eat meat, and I don't always check that it's free range. So I effectively take pleasure from something that involved the suffering of an animal. In the same way bull fighting afficionados take pleasure from something that involves the suffering of a bull. So it would be hypocritical of me to bang on about the "horrors" of bull fighting when I'm not perfect either.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Chopera said:


> I think this sums it up. It's easy to criticise something that causes suffering and is of no benefit to you. It's not so easy to give up meat, or only eat free range produce, or try to help relieve the suffering of an elderly person on their own in an old peoples' home. We're all guilty of it. I eat meat, and I don't always check that it's free range. So I effectively take pleasure from something that involved the suffering of an animal. In the same way bull fighting afficionados take pleasure from something that involves the suffering of a bull. So it would be hypocritical of me to bang on about the "horrors" of bull fighting when I'm not perfect either.


That's very fair I think. 

I have tried to find an ethical difference between the cruelties we all inflict in our various ways in order to satisfy our desire for pleasurable fulfilment and I haven't found one yet.

The only person I know who can claim to hold the moral high ground is a vegan friend. As far as possible she does nothing that will cause suffering to an animal.

Most of us are not so noble and, if we are honest, fudge the issue for our own convenience.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Art, like knives, guns and sticks is neutral. But the purpose it serves can never be without prejudice of one kind or another.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

jimenato said:


> That's very fair I think.
> 
> I have tried to find an ethical difference between the cruelties we all inflict in our various ways in order to satisfy our desire for pleasurable fulfilment and I haven't found one yet.
> 
> ...


Yes I think ethics is the key. Even though it sounds a bit defeatist or nihilistic, the fact is animals die, and they suffer before they get there. Even becoming a vegan isn't going to stop that: not eating an animal and instead leaving it to eventually die from "natural causes" usually means leaving it to go frail, become sick or infected, and perhaps suffer a long drawn out and agonising death far worse than that which awaits a fighting bull. However it does seems unethical to gather round watching them die.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Chopera said:


> Yes I think ethics is the key. Even though it sounds a bit defeatist or nihilistic, the fact is animals die, and they suffer before they get there. Even becoming a vegan isn't going to stop that: not eating an animal and instead leaving it to eventually die from "natural causes" usually means leaving it to go frail, become sick or infected, and perhaps suffer a long drawn out and agonising death far worse than that which awaits a fighting bull. However it does seems unethical to gather round watching them die.


This morning at our perrera we euthanised two terminally ill dogs. We tried our best to save them..in vain. 
They were mutts, brought in off the streets, dumped and left to die. We held them as our vet gave the injections, stroked them, watched as they slipped into sleep. We all wept for these unwanted sick street dogs, our vet too.
I'm far from being a sentimental person but I think the feeling we shared is known as compassion. 
I believe that we **** sapiens or **** rapiens as I prefer are one part of the animal family. We are a species, nothing more, nothing less.
Anyone who feels compassion for our fellow animals albeit of different species must abhor the killingof fellow animals in the name of sport.


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## Brangus (May 1, 2010)

I have seen "toro de lidia" at the butchers here. Is meat from a bullfight always eaten afterward?


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

mrypg9 said:


> This morning at our perrera we euthanised two terminally ill dogs. We tried our best to save them..in vain.
> They were mutts, brought in off the streets, dumped and left to die. We held them as our vet gave the injections, stroked them, watched as they slipped into sleep. We all wept for these unwanted sick street dogs, our vet too.
> I'm far from being a sentimental person but I think the feeling we shared is known as compassion.
> I believe that we **** sapiens or **** rapiens as I prefer are one part of the animal family. We are a species, nothing more, nothing less.
> Anyone who feels compassion for our fellow animals albeit of different species must abhor the killingof fellow animals in the name of sport.


I think you can extend it from "the killing of fellow animals in the name of sport" (bull fighting doesn't consider itself a sport anyway) to the unnecessary killing of animals full stop. And certainly that is what most people feel - I'm just trying to explore why. For example I can understand you being upset "for the dogs" about the suffering they had endured, but I can't understand you being upset "for the dogs" when they were put down. After all, you were ending their suffering.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Chopera said:


> I think you can extend it from "the killing of fellow animals in the name of sport" (bull fighting doesn't consider itself a sport anyway) to the unnecessary killing of animals full stop. And certainly that is what most people feel - I'm just trying to explore why. For example I can understand you being upset "for the dogs" about the suffering they had endured, but I can't understand you being upset "for the dogs" when they were put down. After all, you were ending their suffering.


I think it was a natural response to the deaths of fellow animals, that combined with disgust, sadness and loathing for our 'fellow humans' who had thrown out these dogs because they were sick and looking after them would have cost time and money.
It's not sentimentality, it's more helpless rage and frustration that brings about these tears.


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

A Texan was wandering around Barcelona looking for somewhere to eat. He came across a restaurant and a couple were eating what looked like a wonderful dish and the smell was amazing. He sat down and when the waiter came over he said, 'I want what they're having.' The waiter said, 'This is a very special dish. It is the bull's testicles and because there is only one bull killed every day you have to get here early to have this dish. If you get here early tomorrow I will make sure you have this dish.' The next day the Texan arrived early and ordered the dish. When it arrived, the Texan exclaimed, 'Wait a minute. The dish yesterday was three times the size of this one. What's going on?' The waiter replied, 'Well, you see, sir, sometimes the bull wins...'


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## Swiss_Am (Sep 30, 2013)

Hemingway - himself an aficionado - wrote, "Bullfighting is Not a Sport – It is a Tragedy".


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Swiss_Am said:


> Hemingway - himself an aficionado - wrote, "Bullfighting is Not a Sport – It is a Tragedy".


Did you see this video on the other thread? You might find it interesting, the response of an American to being up close and personal with a toro bravo.


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## Swiss_Am (Sep 30, 2013)

Yes, he seems to have a greater respect for the bull after having a close brush with it.


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## Swiss_Am (Sep 30, 2013)

FWIW here is a brief article explaining the corrida and trying to clear up some misconceptions.

A Primer On Bullfighting by Terin Tashi  Miller


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Interesting. Although in Madrid I never hear people use the term "matador" (which literally translates to "killer"), it is always "torero".


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## whitenoiz (Sep 18, 2012)

*Swiss Am*... Just curious... did you make it to Las Ventas on Saturday, and if so, how did you get on? What are your feeling about bullfighting now..?


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## Swiss_Am (Sep 30, 2013)

In the end there wasn't enough time to see the corrida last week. But I did watch some of it on a large TV in a tapas bar with a bullfighting decor.

The two matadors I saw were young, inexperienced and unimpressive - even the waiters concurred. One matador was constantly puffing out his lips which made him look like a Grouper (fish) or an orangutan. Neither placed the sword properly and both times the bull had to be hacked to death. Not a pretty sight.

I went away from the tapas bar with a new idea - that bullfighting is a bit like classical music (my business by the way). Very few people are competent enough to do it justice and if it is not done with a high level of mastery the results range from a bore to a tragedy.

I personally didn't get the impression that the bull was suffering significantly more than the one that was slaughtered for my dinner.

But I will still reserve final judgement until I can see the real deal and with good matadors.

To be continued.


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Swiss_Am said:


> In the end there wasn't enough time to see the corrida last week. But I did watch some of it on a large TV in a tapas bar with a bullfighting decor.
> 
> The two matadors I saw were young, inexperienced and unimpressive - even the waiters concurred. One matador was constantly puffing out his lips which made him look like a Grouper (fish) or an orangutan. Neither placed the sword properly and both times the bull had to be hacked to death. Not a pretty sight.
> 
> ...


When you consider that the beef on your plate didn't get things jabbed into it repeatedly over a period of time, I'd say the beef on your plate suffered a lot less than the bulls you saw on TV did. 

My husband is also a musician. He plays in three groups, two of which get called up to play _pasodobles_ when there are bullfights here. Of the 12 toreros/matadores he saw this year, one was good. A good torero/matador "gets the job done" quick. The rest made the poor bull severely suffer. One was apparently so bad that OH was hoping one of the local policemen would walk in and put the bull out of its misery quickly... 

The number of good bullfighters is definitely eclipsed by the number of not-so-great newbies. This is still one "sport" I simply can't fathom in a country where dog fights and cock fights aren't legal.


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## Swiss_Am (Sep 30, 2013)

Good point about dog and cockfighting. But the stress beef cattle go through is not confined to the final blow. They are being driven through a long and narrow gauntlet with other cattle for longer than the bull in tbe ring.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Swiss_Am said:


> Good point about dog and cockfighting. But the stress beef cattle go through is not confined to the final blow. They are being driven through a long and narrow gauntlet with other cattle for longer than the bull in tbe ring.


6 of one and half a dozen of the other really.
The "killing process" of meat animals is usually, in our culture, a short sharp bolt to the brain, a quick process. They may have been transported to the abattoir in frightening and cruel conditions, and life before that who knows?
The bullfighting animal however is also transported in frightening and cruel conditions (what animal would actually choose to get in the back of a dark, noisy moving vehicle) and is then tourtured for a good while in various forms in unfamiliar and disturbing surroundings, for the delight and entertainment of others.
Neither situation is good, but for me one is "badder" than the other.


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> 6 of one and half a dozen of the other really.
> The "killing process" of meat animals is usually, in our culture, a short sharp bolt to the brain, a quick process. They may have been transported to the abattoir in frightening and cruel conditions, and life before that who knows?
> The bullfighting animal however is also transported in frightening and cruel conditions (what animal would actually choose to get in the back of a dark, noisy moving vehicle) and is then tourtured for a good while in various forms in unfamiliar and disturbing surroundings, for the delight and entertainment of others.
> Neither situation is good, but for me one is "badder" than the other.


I agree with PW. 

I'm not sure just how being driven through a narrow hallway with other animals is equivalent to being repeatedly stabbed/poked by a man in tight pants for sport.


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