# Animal rights



## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

jellybean posted this on the Portuguese forum.

YouTube - Marcha associação animal, manifestação nova lei defesa dos animais. São bento 9/4/11

I thought Jellybean's comment was interesting. I quote

"Someone with a website aimed at British expats said that the way animals are abused in Portugal is 'part of their culture' and if we are to live here we need to 'respect' that. I think that's complete rubbish and thankfully, many Portuguese do too! It's that kind of indifference that leads to the ongoing abuse of human and animal rights in the world. If everyone shrugged off abuse as 'culture' we would never have seen the end of slavery or apartheid! So don't be afraid to get involved or feel it's not your place to get involved just because you're not a native Portuguese! "


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

I agree with Jellybean. That's why I support campaigns against bullfighting in Spain - for me it's no different from protesting about human rights abuse, in any part of the world. Cultures aren't sacrosanct, they are created by people and can be changed by the will of the people.

I have spoken to Spanish animal rights campaigners and they are generally grateful for the support of foreigners. One of the arguments in their campaign is the image Spain has overseas, and the negative effect on tourism that maltreatment of animals can have.

On the other hand it's sometimes hard for Northern Europeans to distinguish between genuine cruelty - inflicting unnecessary suffering - and cultural differences that result from the Spanish lack of sentimentality. it isn't necessarily cruel to drown unwanted kittens, for example.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> I agree with Jellybean. That's why I support campaigns against bullfighting in Spain - for me it's no different from protesting about human rights abuse, in any part of the world. Cultures aren't sacrosanct, they are created by people and can be changed by the will of the people.
> 
> I have spoken to Spanish animal rights campaigners and they are generally grateful for the support of foreigners. One of the arguments in their campaign is the image Spain has overseas, and the negative effect on tourism that maltreatment of animals can have.
> 
> On the other hand it's sometimes hard for Northern Europeans to distinguish between genuine cruelty - inflicting unnecessary suffering - and cultural differences that result from the Spanish lack of sentimentality. it isn't necessarily cruel to drown unwanted kittens, for example.


Agree with all of the above but not too sure about drowning 'unwanted' kittens. 
We focus on rehoming unwanted dogs and pups but we do have a separate cats' section and anyone with an unwanted kitten can take it along to the cat sanctuary where it will be looked after and advertised for adoption.
When we get pups with eyes shut and without mum we get our vet to humanely kill them.
Drowning seems frankly a tad primitive and there are alternatives although I accept that they may not be available everywhere.
Last week we found an injured pigeon in our garden..a cat had attacked it. It had a damaged leg and bites to its undercarriage. We couldn't leave it for a cat to polish it off so we took it to our upstairs terrace with seed and water. Three days later it was still alive so we took it to the vet who gave it anti-biotics and said it would eventually recover. 
Eight days later and it's still alive but can't fly.
We've called it Zapi as it seemed mortally wounded but will, hopefully, survive.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> We've called it Zapi as it seemed mortally wounded but will, hopefully, survive.


 

And next you'll have a sick baby vulture that has never flown and has no idea how to resolve the problem. Wonder what you will call him ??


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Agree with all of the above but not too sure about drowning 'unwanted' kittens.
> We focus on rehoming unwanted dogs and pups but we do have a separate cats' section and anyone with an unwanted kitten can take it along to the cat sanctuary where it will be looked after and advertised for adoption.
> When we get pups with eyes shut and without mum we get our vet to humanely kill them.
> Drowning seems frankly a tad primitive and there are alternatives although I accept that they may not be available everywhere.
> ...


Drowning kittens at birth is far more humane than dumping them in a skip when they are a few weeks old, or clubbing them to death in a sack - that's the traditional way of disposing of them round here. It's going to take a lot to persuade people to neuter their animals. Besides, they need one or two to survive, to help keep the rats and mice down. They just don't need six or seven.

Taking an injured wild pigeon to a vet is probably something only a Northern European would do. I'm not sure I'd bother, I'd just put it out of its misery. Are you going to patrol the motorways at night rescuing rabbits with broken legs or hedgehogs with internal bleeding? Where do you draw the line? 

I suppose that's what the debate is about - cultural differences undoubtedly exist, but how much can/should we try and change them? IMO we start with bullfighting and keeping dogs chained up 24/7, and work down from there.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Drowning kittens at birth is far more humane than dumping them in a skip when they are a few weeks old, or clubbing them to death in a sack - that's the traditional way of disposing of them round here. It's going to take a lot to persuade people to neuter their animals. Besides, they need one or two to survive, to help keep the rats and mice down. They just don't need six or seven.
> 
> Taking an injured wild pigeon to a vet is probably something only a Northern European would do. I'm not sure I'd bother, I'd just put it out of its misery. Are you going to patrol the motorways at night rescuing rabbits with broken legs or hedgehogs with internal bleeding? Where do you draw the line?
> 
> I suppose that's what the debate is about - cultural differences undoubtedly exist, but how much can/should we try and change them? IMO we start with bullfighting and keeping dogs chained up 24/7, and work down from there.


As I said, it all depends whether you have access to alternative methods of getting shot of unwanted kittens. Drowning should be a last resort. I don't know whether immersion in water is preferable to clubbing, dumping in a skip is reprehensible but there's always a chance, however slim, that some kind soul will rescue them.
I draw the line, personally, at killing an animal myself .I can't do it. I express my violent side for words Neither I, Sandra or our gardener could kill the pigeon so I took it to the vet to see if she would, only to be told that it was recovering and would probably fly away in a week or so.
I don't go out looking for injured animals but if I find them in my garden I will do what is best for them. If killing is required, I'll pay the vet rather than do it myself.
It was the discovery of an emaciated abandoned dog that got me involved with ADANA...remember poor old Lucky?


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> As I said, it all depends whether you have access to alternative methods of getting shot of unwanted kittens. Drowning should be a last resort. I don't know whether immersion in water is preferable to clubbing, dumping in a skip is reprehensible but there's always a chance, however slim, that some kind soul will rescue them.
> I draw the line, personally, at killing an animal myself .I can't do it. I express my violent side for words Neither I, Sandra or our gardener could kill the pigeon so I took it to the vet to see if she would, only to be told that it was recovering and would probably fly away in a week or so.
> I don't go out looking for injured animals but if I find them in my garden I will do what is best for them. If killing is required, I'll pay the vet rather than do it myself.
> It was the discovery of an emaciated abandoned dog that got me involved with ADANA...remember poor old Lucky?


When I was very small I remember my grandfather wringing the neck of a chicken that was destined to be our Sunday lunch. He was a shepherd, a real old country man, and he loved all animals, especially his working collie, Jock. He showed me how to kill the bird quickly (a firm pull and a sharp twist) to make sure it didn't suffer. That's stayed with me I guess; an injured animal lives in the moment and only knows that it is suffering, not that it is possibly going to be rescued. And of course injured wild animals provide food for other wild animals. Nature red in tooth and claw, and all that.

I am really hopeful that in 20 years time there will be much greater awareness about animal welfare in Spain, and certainly initiatives like the environmental education programme where I live is a step in the right direction. There just aren't enough Marys and ADANA kennels to go round!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> When I was very small I remember my grandfather wringing the neck of a chicken that was destined to be our Sunday lunch. He was a shepherd, a real old country man, and he loved all animals, especially his working collie, Jock. He showed me how to kill the bird quickly (a firm pull and a sharp twist) to make sure it didn't suffer. That's stayed with me I guess; an injured animal lives in the moment and only knows that it is suffering, not that it is possibly going to be rescued. And of course injured wild animals provide food for other wild animals. Nature red in tooth and claw, and all that.
> 
> I am really hopeful that in 20 years time there will be much greater awareness about animal welfare in Spain, and certainly initiatives like the environmental education programme where I live is a step in the right direction. There just aren't enough Marys and ADANA kennels to go round!


I had a similar upbringing! Next door to us in Dorset there was a smallholding with chickens, goats, turkeys. The smell in summer was dreadful but in those days you just put up with it. No Environmental Health Department...
When a chicken was required for Sunday dinner my grandmother would go into our garden and inspect the birds over the hedge. When she had selected the victim she'd call our neighbour, point to the unfortunate chicken, he'd grab it and hand it over, she'd hand over the money...and with one deft twist would snap the chicken's neck.
I got used to wheeling my bike into the shed in the dark and brushing my face against some feathered cadaver - a brace of pheasants usually - left to hang or finding eels in a bowl of water.
We are making very small progress at ADANA...more and more dogs and less and less money coming in. We never kill a healthy dog so we have selected twenty of our older dogs to give away free to a good home.
So if you live in the Estepona area and would like a lovely older boy or girl, we have the dog for you. Look on our websiteand give us a call.
This morning Zapi is perky and definitely on the mend. I hope he won't get 'institutionalised' and too fat to fly!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

So to get back to topic - should foreigners get involved in protests about things that are labelled as "part of the culture"? What do other people think?


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> So to get back to topic - should foreigners get involved in protests about things that are labelled as "part of the culture"? What do other people think?


What an interesting question? 

When I’m in London I quite happily let Japan know what I think of its scientific whale hunting but when I went to Tokyo I felt that I was a guest in their country and should not exploit their hospitality. I didn’t walk the streets wearing a t-shirt with “Save the whales” emblazoned on it. OK I own up sometimes in London I do.

If for example I was an expat dependent on my home country for my economy who hadn’t bothered to learn the language and if the going got tough I’d hop it back home am I a guest?

If I have created my economy in Spain, aim to stay forever raising my kids here am I at liberty to act like a fully paid up member of society?

Should I wait until I am invited to share an opinion?

I guess I think I should wait until invited. But that is in part because I think being a foreigner (if such was obvious) my presence might not help the cause.

There’s also the problem of understanding the protest aims. I remember the fox hunting protests in the UK. At times one message was that ripping animals apart was wrong and another message that the countryside needs its economy. I’d go for both. There's also priorities. If my kids in Spain worked in the bull fighting industry at the moment I might feel less sympathy for the bull


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

'Culture' in most parts of the world isn't uniform and fixed. It's fluid and changing. Globalisation has had a marked homogenising effect on cultures and ways of life all over the world. Education and focused campaigning can and do change culture.
Expectations, thought patterns and consumerism have had a huge impact on Spanish life and culture. Ever since Franco embarked on a rapid industrialisation programme in the 1950s which led to rapid urbanisation, culture and habits have undergone massive changes. Liberal social attitudes which are mainly associated with the West have been accepted by the majority of younger Spaniards. So to some extent it could be argued that foreign ideas have already had an impact.
If you believe in universal human rights for the human species and that other animals also have some rights then you should fight against abuses of these rights wherever they occur and whoever you are.
Whether it's forced marriages in Saudi Arabia or cock-fighting in Essex, these things are wrong and everyone has the right to protest against them.
Some would say it's a duty.


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

One of my neighbours has a lovely pointer dog which he keeps tied up on a run chain, (chain strung between 2 trees on which another chain attached to his collar can run up and down). The dog perhaps has a few metres at best in which to move, he fouls the area, he sleeps in the area. His shelter is an old tin barrell. Technically it is illegal to keep a dog like this (even in Spain), but no one seems to give a damn. On the few occasions I have had words with the man who owns the poor dog he shrugs his shoulders and tells me it is none of my business and as an extranjero I ought to keep my neb out.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

JoCatalunya said:


> One of my neighbours has a lovely pointer dog which he keeps tied up on a run chain, (chain strung between 2 trees on which another chain attached to his collar can run up and down). The dog perhaps has a few metres at best in which to move, he fouls the area, he sleeps in the area. His shelter is an old tin barrell. Technically it is illegal to keep a dog like this (even in Spain), but no one seems to give a damn. On the few occasions I have had words with the man who owns the poor dog he shrugs his shoulders and tells me it is none of my business and as an extranjero I ought to keep my neb out.


We´ve had a few denuncias here for similar crimes. These days the police seem to react more promptly especially when the denuncias are raised by foreign incomers, and owners have been fined heavily. They also reacted to complaints about galgos running loose and attacking cats and small dogs, but unfortunately they are probably now chained up somewhere rather than running loose.


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

Alas the police here are only interested it seems in harrassing extranjeros, they jump down our throats for any and everything they can yet the locals get away with blue murder

Racists alive and kicking in the shape and form of the Mossos d'esquadra.


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