# 36,830 leave NZ for Oz in 2010



## Song_Si

Fro New Zealand Herald

1:00 PM Friday Feb 4, 2011

Four thousand more people left New Zealand to live permanently in Australia in 2010 than 2009, although the outflow remained well below levels seen in 2008 and 2007, figures released by Statistics New Zealand show.

The numbers come against the backdrop of an economy struggling to recover from a recession that ended in mid 2009, with the possibility now of entering a double-dip recession, after a 0.2 per cent fall in GDP in the September quarter last year.

Figures yesterday showed New Zealand's unemployment rate unexpectedly rose from 6.4 per cent in September to 6.8 per cent in the December quarter, indicating a labour market struggling to gain momentum.
'
There were 36,830 people who left New Zealand to live permanently or long-term (PLT) across the Tasman in the last year, up from 32,755 in 2009 but down from 48,452 in 2008 and 41,634 in 2007.

The number of PLT departures was mitigated by 15,842 PLT arrivals from Australia in 2010, giving a net departures figure of 20,998 across the ditch during the year 2010. The net figure was up from 17,962 in 2009, and down from the peak of 35,395 in 2008 and 27,998 in 2007.

In both directions most migrants were New Zealand citizens, Statistics New Zealand said.

New Zealand had a net PLT migration gain of 10,451 in 2010 from all countries, down from 21,253 in 2009, but above 2008 and 2007 levels.

Net PLT migration in 2010 was also below the average annual net migration gain of 12,000 over the last 20 years, Stats NZ said.
In 2010, the highest net inflow of migrants was from India (6300), Stats NZ said.

"This surpassed the net inflow from the United Kingdom, which dropped from 9,100 in 2009 to 5,300 in 2010. Almost three quarters of migrants arriving from India had student visas," Stats NZ said.

Meanwhile, seasonally adjusted figures show a net inflow of 750 PLT migrants to New Zealand in the December month, up from 620 in November.

December inflow was just above the monthly average of 700 since February 2010, Stats NZ said.

Speaking after the release of the unemployment figures yesterday, Prime Minister John Key told New Zealanders not to lose confidence that 2011 will be a better year than 2010.

"What happened is that there was a lot of confidence in the early part of 2010, but once the financial crisis hit again with particularly the impact on Ireland and Greece, you started to see a position where confidence evaporated quite quickly," Key told media in Auckland.

"Again we come up to 2011 with confidence looking more perky again, and you've got to remember unemployment's a lagging indicator, not a leading indicator, so typically it tells you what has happened, not what's happening in the future," Key said.

"What we see is a lot more energy from the New Zealand corporate sector, we see them looking to employ more people, we're seeing an increasing number of jobs being advertised, we're seeing a reduction of people on the unemployment benefit from the high over Christmas. I think we shouldn't lose confidence," he said.

Labour's new empoloyment spokeswoman Jacina Ardern said the government needed to invest more in research and development, and in increasing individuals' skills to create more jobs in New Zealand and stop the exodus to Australia.

"I think that the exodus of New Zealanders across the ditch is indicative of the fact that in New Zealand we do have low wages and job opportunities at the moment, as indicated by unemployment figures, the job market is pretty poor," Ardern, who is also Labour's youth affairs spokeswoman, said after the Labour caucus reshuffle yesterday.

There was a two pronged approach in getting youth back into the labour market, Ardern said.

"Firstly there's the issue of job creation generally, and the government could be taking a much more active role in job creation.

That's about research and development, that's about ensuring that the things we're doing to stimulate the economy create jobs," she said.

"The second thing though is about individuals. Making sure that they've got the skills that are required to get into work, and that's probably where our focus need to be for young people currently."

Following the Canterbury earthquake in September 2010, PLT arrivals to the Canterbury region were up 3 per cent in December 2010, while PLT arrivals nationally were down 3 per cent from December 2009, Stats NZ said.

"Increases in 'natural and physical science professionals' (which include geologists and geophysicists) and 'bricklayers, carpenters, and joiners' contributed to the increase into Canterbury compared with December 2009. There was a 12 per cent increase in PLT departures from Canterbury in December 2010, similar to the national increase of 14 per cent," Stats NZ said.

ANZ economists had expected a seasonally adjusted net PLT inflow of approximately 600 in December, with the annual inflow expected to slow to around 10,000.

ASB economists had said the household sector had remained weak in recent months, partly due to weak migration inflows over 2010.

"The pace of annual net migration has slowed over the past year, reflecting a higher number of departures, particularly to Australia.

Meanwhile, the number of new arrivals has also been weak reflecting the slack in the NZ labour market," ASB economists said in their weekly overview on Monday.

"In the second half of 2010 net migration showed signs of stabilising at low levels, reflecting the recovery in the number of arrivals while the number of departures slows. We expect the recovering NZ labour market will encourage migrants into the country," they said.

"However, continued strong labour market demand in Australia indicates the upward trend in departures to Australia will remain. On balance, we expect the monthly pace of net inflows into NZ will remain subdued.

"Nonetheless, the inflows will underpin population growth in NZ and thus remove some downside risk to housing demand and retail spending growth," ASB economists said.

Westpac economists had said net departures across the Tasman would continue to weigh on migration.

ASB economist Jane Turner said the number of permanent departures appeared to be stabilising on a trend basis, particularly the numbers departing to Australia.

However Australia's labour market was likely to remain relatively attractive, across many different industries and skill levels, which would continue to underpin departures out of New Zealand.

"Over the past year, the relatively strong labour market in Australia has drawn an increasing number of New Zealanders across the Tasman.

The December quarter lift in the NZ unemployment rate highlights the divergence in labour market performance remains, and we are likely to see a steady stream of New Zealanders leaving to Australia for the time being," Turner said.

"Permanent arrivals appear to be also stabilising, although remain relatively subdued. In particular, the number of arrivals from the UK and US remains very low, reflecting weak state of the NZ labour market.

Nevertheless, while the overall state of the labour market remains weak, demand for skilled labour has started to lift and already firms are starting to confront shortages.

This may put a renewed focus for firms looking to fill this gap by recruiting from offshore over 2011," she said.

"The low level of migration contributes to slowing population growth, reducing demand for new housing construction.

Indeed, the recent weakness in net migration is likely to be a key driver of low building consent issuance to date," Turner said.

"The domestic economy remains very subdued, with low inflow of net migration contributing to slower growth. The RBNZ is likely to leave interest rates low and stimulatory until the NZ economic recovery has regained traction, and we continue to expect the OCR to remain unchanged until September 2011," she said.


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## Song_Si

*8000 more jobless as rate hits 6.8pc*

5:30 AM Friday Feb 4, 2011

Last year ended with 158,000 people officially unemployed, only 5000 fewer than the peak a year earlier.

The unemployment rate sawtoothed up to 6.8 per cent in the December quarter from 6.4 per cent in September, according to Statistics New Zealand's household labour force survey.

It represents an additional 8000 people unemployed.

There was also an increase of 17,000 in those classified as not in the labour force - those of working age who do not have a job and are not actively seeking one either, which is a requirement of being statistically classified as unemployed.

In Canterbury the unemployment rate jumped from 4.8 per cent to 6 per cent in the quarter following its earthquake.

The number of people employed fell by 11,000 or 0.5 per cent in the quarter, reversing the previous quarter's outsized gain. The decline was all in part-time workers; full-time employment rose 0.3 per cent.

Over 2010 employment rose 1.3 per cent, representing 27,000 people, but it barely outstripped a rise of 23,000 in the workforce during the year.


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## Yvonne.72

It is very tough over there at the moment, can't blame anyone who ups and leaves for Aus.


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## Constipated Earwig

Yvonne.72 said:


> It is very tough over there at the moment, can't blame anyone who ups and leaves for Aus.


Depends what field you are in & on the individual I guess. I am currently in the flooring business & we are rushed off our feet! My wife is a nurse so that is recession proof  So to say things are tough in NZ is very much down to personal circumstances. In my view it seems to be many unskilled or low level skilled workers go to Oz as the average wage over there is much better than here. I went to live in Oz from 1999 to 2001, was great, interesting experience.


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## Song_Si

Constipated Earwig said:


> Depends what field you are in & on the individual I guess. I am currently in the flooring business & we are rushed off our feet! My wife is a nurse so that is recession proof  So to say things are tough in NZ is very much down to personal circumstances. In my view it seems to be many unskilled or low level skilled workers go to Oz as the average wage over there is much better than here. I went to live in Oz from 1999 to 2001, was great, interesting experience.


It's way beyond that - mid-high level government policy people are actively targeted to work for state and federal govt in Canberra; various Oz states had employment 'roadshows' in Auckland, Wellington and Christchurch in 2008, and Oz remains a huge draw for medical staff exp RMOs, junior doctors.


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## Yvonne.72

There was an Australian jobs expo in Auckland last weekend, 7,000 people turned up for it There was such an overhwelming response that they ran out of forms.


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## Yvonne.72

Constipated Earwig said:


> Depends what field you are in & on the individual I guess. I am currently in the flooring business & we are rushed off our feet! My wife is a nurse so that is recession proof  So to say things are tough in NZ is very much down to personal circumstances. In my view it seems to be many unskilled or low level skilled workers go to Oz as the average wage over there is much better than here. I went to live in Oz from 1999 to 2001, was great, interesting experience.


I can assure you that neither myself nor my partner are unskilled or low level skilled. We are both professional people with post grad degrees. All of our fellow Kiwi aquaintances are either teachers, engineers, real estate agents, doctors or lawyers. We also know plumbers and electricians that work over here and two couples who manage townhouse complexes and are doing very well for themselves.

Without exception NONE of them have any desire to ever live in New Zealand again. A great many of them have done like us and are in various stages of permanent residence or applying/applied for citizenship so that they can fully experience the benefits of living in Australia. Not least the abiliity to vote.


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## Song_Si

Yvonne.72 said:


> There was an Australian jobs expo in Auckland last weekend, 7,000 people turned up for it There was such an overhwelming response that they ran out of forms.


Maybe 2007 or 2008 the Oz jobs expo in welling was similarly popular - I popped down out of 'professional interest' as was working in international recruitment at that time for a major gov't agency; quite a number of the staff i worked with were there - 'just out of interest' of course . . . 

I have a number of former colleagues who have chosen Melbourne as their new home, the lifestyle there seems more popular to many than Sydney which would be my personal choice.

In many cases I've worked with graduates who were encouraged to get overseas experience to further their careers, and we'd often re-recruit them from the UK ; from Australia it was different as they'd choose not to come back at all, the availability of cheap flights etc, and higher incomes, no work permit issues, meant they'd choose to stay on.


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## topcat83

Yvonne.72 said:


> I can assure you that neither myself nor my partner are unskilled or low level skilled. We are both professional people with post grad degrees. All of our fellow Kiwi aquaintances are either teachers, engineers, real estate agents, doctors or lawyers. We also know plumbers and electricians that work over here and two couples who manage townhouse complexes and are doing very well for themselves.
> 
> Without exception NONE of them have any desire to ever live in New Zealand again. A great many of them have done like us and are in various stages of permanent residence or applying/applied for citizenship so that they can fully experience the benefits of living in Australia. Not least the abiliity to vote.


Yvonne - if you love Australia so much, why do you keep popping into the NZ Forum? You must be missing the place


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## Song_Si

they've gone to Oz!!

*Lack of staff hits businesses*
Last updated 12:55 18/02/2011

An "overwhelming" majority of New Zealand businesses are suffering key staff shortages and many expect the situation to get worse, a survey says.

Deloitte's survey, Talent Edge New Zealand, surveyed 360 employers across a broad range of economic sectors and company sizes.

Eighty-one percent of respondents reported they had at least moderate shortages.

Talent problems were real for companies and not an abstract concept, Deloitte partner Richard Kleinert said.
....
The types of employees most in short supply included managers, IT professionals and accounting and finance, particularly chartered accountants.

full article  here


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## topcat83

Song_Si said:


> ....
> The types of employees most in short supply included managers, *IT professionals* and accounting and finance, particularly chartered accountants.


That's the bit I like - it keeps me in well-paid work


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## anski

Yes the grass`is always greener or at least it sometimes looks that way. But at the end of the day if you are working for a living or have your own business after you have paid for the essential things in life what do you have left? & what quality of life do you enjoy?

For years I have heard Kiwi's & migrants go on about Australia being the better of the two.

Also for years I also heard many new migrants to New Zealand say that Australia was really their first choice but the rules were too stringent to get in, so they had discovered by gaining entry to New Zealand they only had to remain long enough to get a NZ passport then Australia was an open door to them.

Being an Australian (I lived there 32 years) I have witnessed many people that I personally felt should never have been allowed entry into Australia for various reasons, lack of education, job skills, english profiency etc. I am pleased to hear that the back door is being closed now perhaps these people won't use NZ as merely a stepping stone or will try & adapt & contribute to NZ as a country. Then I wonder what the true migration numbers would be?

As for wage differences a lot of it is misleading after taking into account the difference in the $.
Don't forget if buying either a house or a car in Australia you pay Stamp Duty as well as Capital Gains Tax in certain circumstance on real estate. I think some people either are ignorant of these facts or choose to ignore them.

As for people who have skipped over the ditch pleased you like, yes Australia is a great country but I think it was a better country 40 years ago than it is today.
That is the reason I decided to leave Australia & move to NZ because I found NZ to still have old fashioned values.


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## Constipated Earwig

anski said:


> As for wage differences a lot of it is misleading after taking into account the difference in the $.
> Don't forget if buying either a house or a car in Australia you pay Stamp Duty as well as Capital Gains Tax in certain circumstance on real estate. I think some people either are ignorant of these facts or choose to ignore them.


You forgot personal tax rates, at $60k + up get HAMMERED with 48.5c in the dollar in Oz, people tend to ignore that factor also 

I loved my time in Oz but NZ is a much better place to live (in my humble opinion). I travelled the country extensively with work & met a large amount of people through it & I was personally disgusted at the fairly open racism. In Europe they don't differentiate much between the two countries & refer to Kiwi's as "cultured Australians", guess the uncouth Australian is alive & well in the eyes of the rest of the world.


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## Song_Si

and again, just looked at NZ Herald website, and advert from South Australian Police recruiting serving police from NZ at South Australian Police | Careers | New Zealand Applicants and from UK at South Australian Police | Careers | Overseas Applicants only a few years ago NZ were recruiting from UK . . . people on the move.


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## Song_Si

Migration remains weak

Thursday Apr 14, 2011

*A growing outflow of people to Australia continues to curtail the population gain from net migration.*

In February the net inflow of permanent or long-term migrants, including returning expatriates, was 2172, or 470 when seasonally adjusted, Statistics New Zealand said.

While that is up marginally on the net gain of 440 in January, it is well below the average monthly gain of 700 over the previous year and the average of 1000 a month over the past 20 years.

In the first two months of this year the net outflow of people to Australia has averaged 3280, up from a monthly average of 1850 in the last three months of 2010.

In the year ended February the net population gain from migration was 8200, down from 21,600 the year before and one-third lower than the average 12,000 over the past 20 years.

The main sources of arrivals were 
Australia (15,700, two-thirds of whom were New Zealand citizens), 
Britain (14,200), 
India (7300) and 
China (6600).

"Given the upheaval in Christchurch following the earthquake on February 22, and the relative strength of the Australian labour market and incomes, we think that the weakening trend is likely to be sustained over the next year or two as gross outflows continue to trend higher," Deutsche Bank chief economist Darren Gibbs said.

"We would not be surprised to see the annual net inflow fall to zero over the coming year."


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## anski

I am amazed at the people who do not live in New Zealand but constantly take great delight in informing everyone on this Forum that the economy is weak & that droves want to leave the place for Australia.

Well let me just tell you that a certain business in Auckland that sells to the local population mostly has had ever increasing sales, in fact last year was there best ever. Sorry I cannot divulge details but can only tell you it is in the luxury & non essential category.

On the other hand a friend that has been self employed for 20 years in Brisbane
& had a very good business has been forced to take another job on & then works after hours in his business in order to keep it going.

So sorry things are not that rosy in Brisbane.


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## anski

Yvonne.72 said:


> I can assure you that neither myself nor my partner are unskilled or low level skilled. We are both professional people with post grad degrees. All of our fellow Kiwi aquaintances are either teachers, engineers, real estate agents, doctors or lawyers. We also know plumbers and electricians that work over here and two couples who manage townhouse complexes and are doing very well for themselves.
> 
> Without exception NONE of them have any desire to ever live in New Zealand again. A great many of them have done like us and are in various stages of permanent residence or applying/applied for citizenship so that they can fully experience the benefits of living in Australia. Not least the abiliity to vote.


Yvonne
What is your problem?

I am pleased you & all the Kiwi's you know in Australia are doing really well & have no desire to move back to New Zealand because it leaves plenty of opportunities with regards to employment & housing for those of us that do want to live in New Zealand.

I joined this forum so that I could offer help & advice to people contemplating the move to New Zealand or those new arrivals seeking information to help them settle in. The way you constantly belittle New Zealand is not very helpful to these people. Most of your posts have been full of doom & gloom about a country in which you no longer work, reside nor wish to return to according to your words.

Your posts also insinuate that anybody choosing to either move to or currently reside in New Zealand is making a bad choice because Australia is more attractive & has more to offer.

There are other forums which constantly denigrate New Zealand & it's people & I think your posts would find more receptive ears there possibly because I do not think many people are interested in your negative dribble.

I find it really strange you keeping adding your negativity on this forum I would have thought that Australia would have kept from ever thinking about New Zealand again. Could it be that you are one little unhappy camper in big wide Oz?


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## Darla.R

anski said:


> Well let me just tell you


:heh::heh: Chill out Anski. It's just migration statistics, all those thousands of people obviously feel differently to you.


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## anski

Song_Si said:


> Migration remains weak
> 
> Thursday Apr 14, 2011
> 
> *A growing outflow of people to Australia continues to curtail the population gain from net migration.*
> 
> In February the net inflow of permanent or long-term migrants, including returning expatriates, was 2172, or 470 when seasonally adjusted, Statistics New Zealand said.
> 
> While that is up marginally on the net gain of 440 in January, it is well below the average monthly gain of 700 over the previous year and the average of 1000 a month over the past 20 years.
> 
> In the first two months of this year the net outflow of people to Australia has averaged 3280, up from a monthly average of 1850 in the last three months of 2010.
> 
> In the year ended February the net population gain from migration was 8200, down from 21,600 the year before and one-third lower than the average 12,000 over the past 20 years.
> 
> The main sources of arrivals were
> Australia (15,700, two-thirds of whom were New Zealand citizens),
> Britain (14,200),
> India (7300) and
> China (6600).
> 
> "Given the upheaval in Christchurch following the earthquake on February 22, and the relative strength of the Australian labour market and incomes, we think that the weakening trend is likely to be sustained over the next year or two as gross outflows continue to trend higher," Deutsche Bank chief economist Darren Gibbs said.
> 
> "We would not be surprised to see the annual net inflow fall to zero over the coming year."


What's your problem also? Constantly going on about immigration figures that are probably not even accurate.

I often go to & fro NZ & OZ so I suppose my movements are adding to these inflows & outflows & if people tick the wrong boxes who knows if they are leaving permanently or not. many people cannot even be trusted to fill a ballot paper in correctly so how do you expect them not to do otherwise with the arrival & exit cards?

We could all fling remarks about Thailand but frankly it's not worth the effort.
Been there seen it & you are welcome to it.


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## Darla.R

anski said:


> What's your problem also? Constantly going on about immigration figures that are probably not even accurate.
> 
> I often go to & fro NZ & OZ so I suppose my movements are adding to these inflows & outflows & if people tick the wrong boxes who knows if they are leaving permanently or not. many people cannot even be trusted to fill a ballot paper in correctly so how do you expect them not to do otherwise with the arrival & exit cards?
> 
> We could all fling remarks about Thailand but frankly it's not worth the effort.
> Been there seen it & you are welcome to it.


Yes, Anski I'm sure those immigration figures are* completely* wrong. Stats aye?!

Why are you dissing Thailand now? All Song Si did was post some immigration information and you go off the deep end  

Since we're on the topic. I love Thailand. The people are so friendly, the food is superb and many Kiwis and Aussies live there.


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## Weebie

Anski remember that the majority of migrants into Australia are doing lower skilled professions (although the government packages it as skilledm migration) the reality is that many jobs such as trades aren't done by Australians. For these people the opportunities of Australia far outweight NZ and it's for this reason that Australia is flooded with lower class New Zealand workers.

You rarely see skilled kiwi workers over here and if your highly skilled the odds are you can find a high paying job anywhere in the world let alone NZ.


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## Darla.R

Weebie, you're right a lot of New Zealanders here are lower skilled and they do the more manual work, but by no means all are like that. Both myself and my partner are skilled professionals and we both came to Australia (after living in NZ) because of the better opportunities and higher salaries.

Do you have some official data on the types of work NZ migrants do Weebie? I'd very interested to see the exact ratio of skilled to unskilled as I know there are many NZ medics over here, engineers, research scientists, etc.

NZ doctors going to Aussie for good | Stuff.co.nz


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## Song_Si

The main sources of arrivals were 
_Australia (15,700, two-thirds of whom were New Zealand citizens), 
Britain (14,200), 
India (7300) and 
China (6600)._

Hi - no intention to offend or upset; I love New Zealand, retain business interests there and friends/extended family. My motorbike wears a NZ flag here in Thailand.

My point in posting those stats which has been _entirely _missed was twofold - one was how many NZers are *returning* to NZ - approx 10,000 back from Oz, and secondly to show UK people they are* not alone*! 

Many posters here seem hesitant about the shift, if it's the right thing to do, will they meet any nice people etc - if Statistics NZ is correct in saying 14,200 people from UK moved there in 2010 it would suggest that for the negatives that often crop up on websites, there are enough other people who did the research, did the move, and ideally will stay.

The stats show what a mixed-culture NZ is becoming, though it has always been quite a mix, biggest change maybe in last 25 years would be the numbers of Chinese moving long-term.

Most of my working career in NZ after I returned from Oz was in international recruitment, many yrs exp with immigration issues around employment - I advocated for NZ on behalf of employers, but it always paid to be honest - no point in bring an employee and his/her family around the world without their being aware of the pluses and minuses. 

My own grandparents were born in USA, Australia, New Zealand, Poland. A classic mix!

As for Thailand - it is what is is. We are very happy here - but so much of that depends on our friends and family here, sports and social groups, the location itself is not always the issue.


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## Darla.R

It's interesting to note that almost the same number emigrated from India and China than did from Britain, makes for a refreshing mix of cultures imo. 

The figures don't give a break down but I wonder how many of the people from Britain were NZ citizens returning home. If two thirds of the Australian returnees were Kiwis did the same proportion also leave Britain?


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## topcat83

Darla.R said:


> It's interesting to note that almost the same number emigrated from India and China than did from Britain, makes for a refreshing mix of cultures imo.
> 
> The figures don't give a break down but I wonder how many of the people from Britain were NZ citizens returning home. If two thirds of the Australian returnees were Kiwis did the same proportion also leave Britain?


If that is the case, then it also shows how many New Zealanders choose to return to their home country, over staying permanently in another country. There do seem to be a large number of young NZers who choose to see something of the world before settling down in 'godzone', either to bring up their family or to retire. I think that reflects the culture of the country - its outdoor, sporty and laid back lifestyle suits families and people with leisure time to enjoy it.


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## Darla.R

Or perhaps a large number of Kiwis who lost their jobs and had to return to New Zealand because they were unable to claim unemployment benefit elsewhere?


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## Song_Si

^ 10,000 job losses? where?


*Australia says it needs thousands of over 65s to go back to work*
By Greg Ansley
Australia is mobilising its grey army in a bid to offset falling migration and sliding population growth as demand for skilled workers outstrips supply.

Treasurer Wayne Swan yesterday announced measures designed to stem the flow of ageing Australians into retirement, including an expert panel to advise on the economic potential of seniors.

It will join an existing consultative forum on mature-age employment, established to find means of boosting workplace participation rates among older Australians and which will produce a series of reports this year.

Enticements to continue working already in place include a new "work bonus" allowing over-65s to earn A$6500 ($8450) a year before their pensions are affected.

A new full-time age discrimination commissioner will also start work in July to tackle prejudice against seniors in the workforce.

"In New Zealand labour force participation rates for people aged 55-64 are around 76 per cent," Swan said.

"In Australia that rate is only 63 per cent. If we could deliver a similar rate, we'd see 330,000 more workers giving us the value of their experience and know-how.

"Enhancing mature participation is simply one of the most important issues facing our economy today."


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## Darla.R

Song_Si said:


> ^ 10,000 job losses? where?


Your figures were for 2010. 

In 2009 nearly 21,000 kiwis lost their jobs in Australia. It's not unreasonable to assume that 10,000 people were laid off in 2010. The vast majority of whom were low or unskilled workers.

Kiwis working in Australia on SVC's are unable to claim benefits, so it's logical to assume that they would have returned to New Zealand if they couldn't find employment.

Kiwis flock home from Aussie | Stuff.co.nz



> *Australia says it needs thousands of over 65s to go back to work*
> By Greg Ansley
> Australia is mobilising its grey army in a bid to offset falling migration and sliding population growth as demand for skilled workers outstrips supply.
> 
> Treasurer Wayne Swan yesterday announced measures designed to stem the flow of ageing Australians into retirement, including an expert panel to advise on the economic potential of seniors.
> 
> It will join an existing consultative forum on mature-age employment, established to find means of boosting workplace participation rates among older Australians and which will produce a series of reports this year.
> 
> Enticements to continue working already in place include a new "work bonus" allowing over-65s to earn A$6500 ($8450) a year before their pensions are affected.
> 
> A new full-time age discrimination commissioner will also start work in July to tackle prejudice against seniors in the workforce.
> 
> "In New Zealand labour force participation rates for people aged 55-64 are around 76 per cent," Swan said.
> 
> "In Australia that rate is only 63 per cent. If we could deliver a similar rate, we'd see 330,000 more workers giving us the value of their experience and know-how.
> 
> "Enhancing mature participation is simply one of the most important issues facing our economy today."


It makes good sense to use the resource of skilled people already in the country. 

The GFC and sharemarket plunge wiped a lot of value off people's retirement funds, some of them will need to keep on working beyond the traditional retirement age. I imagine this age group will be the same financial situation in New Zealand. Do you know what provision is being made for them there, if any?


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## Song_Si

*stats and more stats!!*

only a survey I know, but their stats of people leaving _"most common occupation listed by those who were leaving permanently was professional, followed by technicians and trade workers"_ and "_they were more than twice as likely as other New Zealanders to have a tertiary education"_ blows away the theory of only unskilled people leaving the country.


As in an earlier post, good news for NZ is that many young professionals do return, and this news items says about half are planning to return to NZ to live, just as many who come to NZ from overseas are there for a fixed-term without intention of permanent settlement; as an eg, and don't know where it would fit n these stats, when I was working for Wellington region hospitals in 2004 we had 110 UK junior doctors on staff across the region, generally they'd stay 1-3 years - at the same time similar numbers of young NZ doctors were getting exp in Australia and UK . . . a global rotation!


*Mass exodus to Aussie continues*
SARAH HARVEY Last updated 05:00 01/05/2011

New Zealanders, and in particular professionals and tradies, continue to stream across the Tasman to live with our Aussie mates.

The latest figures from Statistics New Zealand show that in February 4340 of us upped sticks and headed across to the Lucky Country, up by 1000 from the same month last year, and up 627 from February 2009.

In the year to the end of February, 34,550 Kiwis had gone to Australia, up from 26,563 the previous year, and a huge contrast to the 10,119 Australians who moved here.

More New Zealanders move to Aus-tralia than anywhere else. Out of a total of 48,322 Kiwis who left – to places including the next most popular destination, the UK, US and China – 71% moved to Australia. And it's not just tradies crossing the ditch. The most common occupation listed by those who were leaving permanently was professional, followed by technicians and trade workers.

Despite ideas that Kiwis are flooding to work in mines, the smallest number of those leaving were machinery operators and drivers, 1178.

The statistics come as Kea, a website which aims to connect expat Kiwis, launches a "global census" to try to find out how many New Zealanders are living overseas.

It is estimated up to one million New Zealanders are living permanently in another country at any time.

A similar survey held in 2006 yielded 18,000 responses from 155 countries.

The survey found that New Zealanders are strongly connected to home, with half maintaining economic interests in New Zealand and the vast majority keeping alive their family and social connections; many had "very high incomes by New Zealand standards" and they were more than twice as likely as other New Zealanders to have a tertiary education.

The 18,000 were evenly divided on their future plans – with only about half planning to return to New Zealand to live.


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## Darla.R

Song_Si said:


> only a survey I know, but their stats of people leaving _"most common occupation listed by those who were leaving permanently was professional, followed by technicians and trade workers"_ and "_they were more than twice as likely as other New Zealanders to have a tertiary education"_ blows away the theory of only unskilled people leaving the country.


That is interesting, mostly unskilled in in 2009, more professionals in 2010. Perhaps further evidence of a tightening job market in Australia?



> As in an earlier post, good news for NZ is that many young professionals do return, and this news items says about half are planning to return to NZ to live, just as many who come to NZ from overseas are there for a fixed-term without intention of permanent settlement; as an eg, and don't know where it would fit n these stats, when I was working for Wellington region hospitals in 2004 we had 110 UK junior doctors on staff across the region, generally they'd stay 1-3 years - at the same time similar numbers of young NZ doctors were getting exp in Australia and UK . . . a global rotation!


The concept of permanent migration is an outdated one it this day and age, it's very 90's.

People are so much more mobile and willing to travel to gain experience, provided they've got the resources to be able to afford to move freely. As soon as mortgages, children and other commitments come along it becomes something that only the better-off can afford to do more than once.

I guess so many move to Australia because it's an easy move, especially for the young, free and single. Migrants are the new yuppies.


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## Song_Si

Darla.R said:


> I guess so many move to Australia because it's an easy move, especially for the young, free and single. Migrants are the new yuppies.


Agree; it's not even considered 'international' to some . . . the ease of crossing the Tasman, no visas, cheap fares etc . . . my elder sister has 4 adult children, she married in Oz, first 2 kids born there, then returned to NZ, but the kids seem to flit between jobs in both countries - have relatives on both sides, and still see as much of each other as they would maybe if living in Auckland and Christchurch - Facebook, Skype, email etc it's no big deal being only a few hours away.


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## Darla.R

*A suggestion for an improvement*

Exactly. It's no big deal moving between Australia and New Zealand for work. Residents of the two countries are fortunate to have this facility. I suppose it's a similar arrangement to that which exists within the EC. 

I find it so ridiculous when people get into the parochial NZ v. Oz debate. They complement each other perfectly, so much so that perhaps we should have a joint NZ/Australia forum, with sub forums for the different emigration requirements for each country? 

_[deleted - violition of rules 1 & 5]_

Just my humble opinion, people please feel free to say what you think.


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## topcat83

Darla.R said:


> Exactly. It's no big deal moving between Australia and New Zealand for work. Residents of the two countries are fortunate to have this facility. I suppose it's a similar arrangement to that which exists within the EC.
> 
> I find it so ridiculous when people get into the parochial NZ v. Oz debate. They complement each other perfectly, so much so that perhaps we should have a joint NZ/Australia forum, with sub forums for the different emigration requirements for each country?
> 
> _[deleted - violition of rules 1 & 5]_
> 
> Just my humble opinion, people please feel free to say what you think.


Just to correct this post - New Zealand _citizens_ can work in Australia - New Zealand _residents_ can't.


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## Darla.R

But even that's not quite the whole story is it Topcat? 

Australian Permanent Residents can work in New Zealand, it's not just citizens of the two countries that are afforded this privilege. That's why I said residents and not citizens or permanent residents.


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## topcat83

Darla.R said:


> But even that's not quite the whole story is it Topcat?
> 
> Australian Permanent Residents can work in New Zealand, it's not just citizens of the two countries that are afforded this privilege. That's why I said residents and not citizens or permanent residents.


But this the New Zealand forum - and (as I said in my last post, and at risk of repeating myself) New Zealand _citizens_ can work in Australia - New Zealand _residents_ (who aren't citizens) can't.


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## kevin04

You can see why Kiwi's move to Australia.

Higher wages, a similar culture, it's not that far away from NZ (considering how far Europe, North America, South African etc are on a flight). No visa. 
It's similar to us Europeans going to another EU country for a few years.
I'm sure a lot will be back, just like some of us go traveling for a year or two.

I haven't been to Australia, but attempted NZ for 3 months, could not find work, but even if I did, it seems an extremely expensive country for the wages you get paid.


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## Darla.R

Hi Kevin There is a visa, it's called the Special Category Visa.

Yes, it is similar to us Europeans going to another EU country, except I think New Zealanders may have less access to benefits and rights than their equivalents in Europe do. For instance, New Zealanders can't claim unemployment benefit here and have to support themselves if they don't work.


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## kevin04

Thanks for the info, Darla.


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## Song_Si

lose some, gain some; and the impact of the Christchurch earthquakes

*Record exodus to Australia*
Last updated 12:03 21/06/2011

*The exodus to Australia hit record levels in May, partly due to Christchurch residents fleeing the city following February's fatal earthquake.
*
The net loss of 3300 people in the month was higher than the previous record of 2900 set in 1979.

Nationally, net migration has been negative since March this year with more people leaving the country permanently than arriving, after the quake.

Departures of Christchurch people remained high in May, at 800, up from 500 departures in May last year.

Since the earthquake on February 22, the city has seen 1300 more departures and 400 fewer arrivals than in the same period of 2010.

Nationally, on a seasonally adjusted basis, there was an overall net outflow of 400 in May.

*New Zealand had a net migration gain of 4600 in the year ended May, down from 18,000 the previous year.*

The average annual net migration gain was 12,000 over the last 20 years.

The decrease in annual net migration compared with 2010 was mainly due to an increase in departures to Australia.


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## Song_Si

but tourism was up in April

*Encouraging signs in latest arrival stats*
12:30 PM Friday May 20, 2011

*A later-than-usual Easter holiday bumped up visitor numbers last month, and brought back the Australian tourists missing from the March statistics.*

Short-term visitor arrivals climbed 5 per cent to 197,800 in April, according to Statistics New Zealand, with 8100 more Australians coming across the Tasman during the Easter holiday period.

One economist says today's arrival numbers are an encouraging sign that the impact of the Christchurch earthquake may not be long lasting.

Some 2900 more Brits visited New Zealand in April, that's 21 per cent higher than April 2010, arresting some of the decline from UK tourists over the past couple of years.


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## Song_Si

*New high for Kiwis leaving for Australia*
CATHERINE HARRIS
Last updated 14:54 21/12/2011

*Latest visitor figures show the effects of the Rugby World Cup have worn off on tourist numbers, and net migration to Australia has hit a new high.*

Statistics New Zealand said overseas visitor numbers in November were 230,300, up 2 per cent on a year ago. 

*Today's figures also revealed that the number of Kiwis migrating to Australia had hit an annual high.*

A net 35,800 people migrated to Australia in the year to November, surpassing the previous annual record of 35,400 in December 2008.

General migration also continued to be negative, with a net loss of 568 migrants in the year to November, the largest annual total since the September 2001 year.

Leung said that while departures to Australia had been very high, a recovery in permanent migration appeared to be slowly taking place.

''We do expect some continued easing over the coming months, just given the fact that the Australian labour market is slowing.'' 

full article here


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## mortirolo

I lived in Sydney from 1988-1991, during this period I met loads of kiwis that generally were low skilled workers, they were much happier in Australia, better wages more work and great weather! It's amazing how my good fellow kiwi friend ( a painter) brought a house 4 blocks from Bondi Beach for $220,000 in 1990 I thought he as mad. Well, how I was wrong when I visited the same house in 2006 with 3 extra big kids in the house. What a great investment. Bondi was a middle to low class eastern Sydney suburb with English & Irish back packers and kiwi renters. Wow the place has been transformed now. I've been in the UK since 1991.....anyway this doesn't surprise me that NZers flock to Australia still more to this day. I find it upsetting there are a lot of skilled kiwis in the US especially Doctors who I have met and finance people in London or New York are attracted to these cities for better salaries and career paths. When I lived in Sydney as a banking clerk I found the taxes very high 50% I think and it was just hard to survive in a shared house in Bondi Beach. I wanted to enjoy the night life which I did when I was young but I barely could save $5,000 USD at the end of 3 years to get out of Aussie when I did, so depends on your job skill and where you live in Australia. NZ just doesn't pay enough to its workers and that's a fact. The better weather, beaches etc, is attractive to kiwis. There were 500,000 kiwis in Sydney in 1988 if I remember!!!


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## anski

*The two Australias - Struggle St v Easy St*



> HERE are the two Australias - where the real great divide is between those on Struggle St and those on Easy St.
> 
> News.com.au's Cost of Living survey, now completed by more than 30,000 Australians, has found the nation’s two-speed economy is creating a two-tier community.
> 
> Haves and have-nots are split almost down the middle and “battler belts” are scattered among pockets of prosperity in our major cities and regional centres.


The two Australias - Struggle St v Easy St | Herald Sun


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## anski

*Consider this before you leap across the ditch to Australia*



> For decades, New Zealanders and Australians have been able to live in each other's countries, and receive the same entitlements as the locals.
> 
> But ten years ago, the rules in Australia changed, and the situation is now very different for Kiwis living here.
> 
> Many are caught in a kind of limbo, working and paying Australian taxes, but unable to claim any support if that work ends. Nor can they send their children to university or TAFE, except as full fee-paying students.
> 
> Tensions were brought to a head by the Queensland floods and Cyclone Yasi, earlier this year, when Kiwis, most of whom live in Queensland, were ineligible for disaster relief.




Kiwis in Australia - Life Matters - ABC Radio National (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)


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