# Biased treatment?



## djbutler (Jan 7, 2012)

Could someone please explain to me the thinking behind excluding Brits from the green card lottery every year, seems we can die together in the wars our politicians create between them but we are not allowed to live together. Are there any restrictions of this sort applied to US citizens who wish to live in the UK, I'd be surprised!.
My father was a GI, my mother later became a permanent resident and I have two Sisters in Yuma AZ, I am now retired but cant get a visa as my fathers name was not entered on my birth certificate due to the UK law demanding the fathers presence at the registration, he was in Europe in WW2 at the time.


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## nyclon (Apr 3, 2011)

> Are there any restrictions of this sort applied to US citizens who wish to live in the UK, I'd be surprised!.


The UK has nothing similar to a green card lottery and with immigration laws tightening, it's incredibly difficult for US citizens to qualify for a visa. The choices are: marry/form a civil partnership with a UK citizen, have extraordinary skills and qualifications which make you eligible for one of the 20,700 work visas available each calendar year, go to university or have a huge amount of money to start or invest in a UK company.


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## EVHB (Feb 11, 2008)

The ‘green card lottery’ is officially called the “diversity lottery’. The purpose is to give immigration opportunities to natives from countries other than the main source-countries of immigration to the USA. The aim is to diversify the American population by creating immigration opportunity for under-represented ethnic groups. 
Every year, they publish a list of eligible nationalities. So it happens that a certain nationality can participate in one year, but not in the next year. It’s depending on how many inhabitants of that country already came to the US in different ways (marriage to US citizen, work related visa, ...).

See also “Ineligible countries”: Diversity Immigrant Visa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2012)

I don't think I would blame the US for your problem - I would put it squarely in the lap of either British policies on issuing birth certificates in that time, or on your parents for failing to follow through and get recognition for you as a dual UK/US citizen.

Aside from that, your issue seems to be the desire to live close to your sisters during your twilight years. The options as I see it are:

1) your sisters move back to Bristol UK

2) visit them in Yuma for 90 days at a time, and then go back to the UK

3) migrate to somewhere nearby without the restrictions, such as Mexicali, Baja California, Mexico. MX grants visas easily to anyone who can show a steady retirement income of at least £800 per month, or someone with assets. (Mexico doesn't want foreigners coming in to live on the dole either).The annual renewal costs for the residency visa are less than £100. Otherwise, you could enter MX on a tourist visa for up to 180 days, go to Yuma for a visit, and then get a new tourist visa for another 180 days when returning to MX.

The cost of living in Mexicali is much cheaper than either the UK or Yuma, and you would be less than 100km from your sisters. Many people there speak English, it's a city of about 700,000 people next to the US border and the crime rates aren't extreme. The climate is similar to Yuma. You could go visit your sisters for 90 days at a time in Yuma without problem, and they could come visit you in Mexicali for up to 180 days at a time.

Most retired people worry about healthcare costs, and good healthcare is cheap in Mexico. So are pharmaceuticals. So are nurses (for when you hit 90 and need some help.


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## djbutler (Jan 7, 2012)

EVHB said:


> The ‘green card lottery’ is officially called the “diversity lottery’. The purpose is to give immigration opportunities to natives from countries other than the main source-countries of immigration to the USA. The aim is to diversify the American population by creating immigration opportunity for under-represented ethnic groups.
> Every year, they publish a list of eligible nationalities. So it happens that a certain nationality can participate in one year, but not in the next year. It’s depending on how many inhabitants of that country already came to the US in different ways (marriage to US citizen, work related visa, ...).


 
Yes I understand the rules but don,t follow the thinking behind it and publishing a list every year with the Brits excluded is a bit like not having a list at all as far as I'm concerned, it just makes me wonder why people who are willing to fight and die for similar values are desired less than those from countries who wish to destroy the freedoms both our countries represent. At the end of the day the rules are written by the back room boys behind the politicians, Guess in that case they will rarely make sense to the layman. I suppose my personal beef is that I have been cheated out of my birthright through no fault of my own and have no recourse to any law to correct that. Had things worked out differently I would have been a Vietnam Vet so would have been treated as poorly as them, no change there then,my 12 years military service is ignored by my present masters anyway. When I die I think I'll have my ashes smuggled in and scattered in Long beach with my Mothers and then we will all be together. A month here and there with my Sisters will have to do for now but the increases in air fares is becoming a problem! Funny old world where a Kenyan's son can become President but an American's son can't gain a visa, I suppose that's diversity for you.....Thank you to those who have been constructive, GringoCArlos has some interesting information and yes I am aware of the places you mentioned, just had not thought in that direction, If I sound a bit bitter about this it's because I am, I cant speak for my parents decisions back in 1945 but I expected a different attitude from the powers that be when I asked, there must be room for a fresh approach if you can have amnesty's every few years, one of which I missed by flying out days before it was announced. Well at least I have some new ways to look at things thanks to this forum. Best luck to all those wishing to come to the UK,
Dave


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## nyclon (Apr 3, 2011)

> Funny old world where a Kenyan's son can become President but an American's son can't gain a visa


The huge difference is that President Obama was actually born in America to an American parent, the only 2 requirements for a US citizen to gain citizenship at birth. To become a US citizen there are 2 requirements: 1) you are born in the US and 2) one or both of your parents are US citizens. That his father was Kenyan is of no relevance to his birthright or his ability to become president.


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2012)

nyclon said:


> The huge difference is that President Obama was actually born in America to an American parent, the only 2 requirements for a US citizen to gain citizenship at birth. To become a US citizen there are 2 requirements: 1) you are born in the US and 2) one or both of your parents are US citizens. That his father was Kenyan is of no relevance to his birthright or his ability to become president.


To become the US President, yes this is true. 

For us normal folks, to become a US citizen by birth, it should say 1) born in America *OR* 2) one of your parents is a US citizen and has lived for 5 or more years as an adult within the US or its possessions, with the foreign birth registered with the US Consulate before the child reaches 18 years old.


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## EVHB (Feb 11, 2008)

djbutler said:


> Thank you to those who have been constructive,


I hope you consider me as constructive, as your question was


djbutler said:


> Could someone please explain to me the thinking behind excluding Brits from the green card lottery every year,


 which I answered. So don't shoot the messenger! I didn't make these rules (as I think it's stupid to grant a visa to people who only need high school education, certainly not in times of recession or economical crisis).
And I understand your frustration.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

> Yes I understand the rules but don,t follow the thinking behind it and publishing a list every year with the Brits excluded is a bit like not having a list at all as far as I'm concerned, it just makes me wonder why people who are willing to fight and die for similar values are desired less than those from countries who wish to destroy the freedoms both our countries represent.


No, I don't think you understand the rules. The "diversity lottery" is intended to distribute the places "left over" from the visa places allotted by country. The UK more than fills the visa places allotted to its citizens every year and so has no left over visas to contribute to the visa lottery.
Cheers,
Bev


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## nyclon (Apr 3, 2011)

GringoCArlos said:


> To become the US President, yes this is true.
> 
> For us normal folks, to become a US citizen by birth, it should say 1) born in America *OR* 2) one of your parents is a US citizen and has lived for 5 or more years as an adult within the US or its possessions, with the foreign birth registered with the US Consulate before the child reaches 18 years old.


Please click on this link from the US Citizenship and Immigration website:

USCIS - Citizenship

There is no mention of 5 year residency.


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## djbutler (Jan 7, 2012)

nyclon said:


> The huge difference is that President Obama was actually born in America to an American parent, the only 2 requirements for a US citizen to gain citizenship at birth. To become a US citizen there are 2 requirements: 1) you are born in the US and 2) one or both of your parents are US citizens. That his father was Kenyan is of no relevance to his birthright or his ability to become president.


So, he meets (1),I meet(2), different result


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## nyclon (Apr 3, 2011)

djbutler said:


> So, he meets (1),I meet(2), different result


No. The "different result" comes because he meets both requirements. You don't.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2012)

nyclon said:


> Please click on this link from the US Citizenship and Immigration website:
> 
> USCIS - Citizenship
> 
> There is no mention of 5 year residency.


Here's the information:

*from here:*
Acquisition of U.S. Citizenship by a Child Born Abroad

*Quote:*

Birth Abroad to One Citizen and One Alien Parent in Wedlock

A child born abroad to one U.S. citizen parent and one alien parent acquires U.S. citizenship at birth under Section 301(g) of the INA provided the U.S. citizen parent was physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for the time period required by the law applicable at the time of the child's birth. *(For birth on or after November 14, 1986, a period of five years physical presence, two after the age of fourteen, is required. For birth between December 24, 1952 and November 13, 1986, a period of ten years, five after the age of fourteen, is required for physical presence in the United States or one of its outlying possessions to transmit U.S. citizenship to the child.*) The U.S. citizen parent must be genetically related to the child to transmit U.S. citizenship.


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## djbutler (Jan 7, 2012)

GringoCArlos said:


> Here's the information:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"In Wedlock" is a problem, George was a G.I. but Genetically related should still count as far as I see it, my mother later married another guy, moved to the US and became a citizen, I was left in the UK and adopted by another family. So in short I lost not only my Father but my Mother, two sisters and citizenship all in the first year of my life. You can argue the legal aspect for years as I have but it will never change the fact that my Father was an American Citizen as am I, now the law may not recognise that but my genes do and America is my country,always has been and ever will be.


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## djbutler (Jan 7, 2012)

Bevdeforges said:


> No, I don't think you understand the rules. The "diversity lottery" is intended to distribute the places "left over" from the visa places allotted by country. The UK more than fills the visa places allotted to its citizens every year and so has no left over visas to contribute to the visa lottery.
> Cheers,
> Bev


Lovely, thanks for that Bev, of course one of these "Diversity" places is the one left over by not responding to my fifth preference visa application since 1985, good system...


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## djbutler (Jan 7, 2012)

Regarding the restrictions placed by the UK on US Citizens living and working in the UK:

I am surprised by that, no come to think of it I'm not. Maybe the politicians are playing a bit of "tit for tat". I think that's poor, this special relationship they are always on about seems to mean we treat each other with disdain wherever possible. Makes me mad though when I look at the dregs of eastern Europe we get instead. I don't suppose there is any chance of the UK being a State of the US one day ,if we get to owe you guys enough you could take over ownership of the old country by default like the banks in the midwest mortgage collapse...


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## EVHB (Feb 11, 2008)

We had a friend who's mother was English, but she married with an American guy, moved overseas to the US and gave birth to our friend. Now he's retired and he would like to move to the UK (and travel Europe), but... he can't. Because of the regulations, his mother would have asked his UK citizenship many many years ago, and she didn't. (I believe it is still possible for younger people, but he's in his 60's)


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

What is and what "ought to be" are two entirely different things. Even within the EU, they have left the issue of nationality (and to a lesser degree, immigration) to the individual member states.

And, as far as I know, registering the birth with the consulate is NOT a requirement for claiming your US nationality. It will throw the burden of proof back on you to show that your mother or father actually was a US citizen and whether or not s/he met whatever the residence requirement was at the time of your birth.

But it's only been since the 1970's that overseas births were recognized at all unless the American parent had lived for quite some time in the US. And now, all those "accidental Americans" are discovering their tax obligations and trying to renounce their US nationality. (See the Canada subsection on taxes if you want to see the "down" side of US nationality.)

You can't please everyone - and sometimes you can't please anyone.
Cheers,
Bev


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## twostep (Apr 3, 2008)

I do not see the biased treatment. All OP has to proof is that her father was within the required perimeters to hand his US citizenship on to her and that he was indeed her father. Should not be impossible considering the resources available.
Her parents' decisions on not having the father on her birth certificate and giving her up for adoption - she cannot blame that on anyone but them.


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## nyclon (Apr 3, 2011)

> For us normal folks, to become a US citizen by birth, it should say 1) born in America OR 2) one of your parents is a US citizen and has lived for 5 or more years as an adult within the US or its possessions, with the foreign birth registered with the US Consulate before the child reaches 18 years old.


My response was to the OP's comment that President Obama's father was Kenyan and despite that he became President but the OP feels some how ripped off that he can't gain access to the US although his father might have been American. The nationality of President Obama's father has no bearing on his American citizenship or his right to become President.

You've confused the requirements for a biological or adopted child of a US citizen living abroad. The requirement is actually that the US parent have lived for 5 years in the US or one of it's possessions and 2 of those years have to be after the age of 14. See the correct reference below in the 2nd bullet point:

USCIS - Biological or Adopted Children Residing Outside the United States

But, that's actually irrelevant as is this:



> Birth Abroad to One Citizen and One Alien Parent in Wedlock
> 
> A child born abroad to one U.S. citizen parent and one alien parent acquires U.S. citizenship at birth under Section 301(g) of the INA provided the U.S. citizen parent was physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for the time period required by the law applicable at the time of the child's birth. (For birth on or after November 14, 1986, a period of five years physical presence, two after the age of fourteen, is required. For birth between *December 24, 1952 and November 13, 1986*, a period of ten years, five after the age of fourteen, is required for physical presence in the United States or one of its outlying possessions to transmit U.S. citizenship to the child.) The U.S. citizen parent must be genetically related to the child to transmit U.S. citizenship.


because the OP states that his father died in WW2 which ended 7 years before 1952 in 1945. So, neither applies to him.

According to the US Constitution there are only three qualifications for the Presidency — the President must be 35 years of age, be a natural born citizen, and must have lived in the United States for at least 14 years.


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## djbutler (Jan 7, 2012)

Well I certainly seem to have polarised things, some people are trying to be helpful and constructive while others have adopted the "he's got a nerve complaining" attitude. I respect the fact that you are all entitled to your point of view but please try to use the facts, I at no time stated my father was dead at the time, just that he was away fighting in Europe and later the Pacific when I was born and therefore due to the regulations pertaining to the registration of births at that time his name was not entered on my birth certificate. Also there are no regulations quoted that apply to a birth in 1945 to an unmarried American serviceman, there was I believe a law that stated " any child born to an American serviceman overseas will assume the nationality of the mother" that was rescinded after pressure through the courts. I hasten to add that I have not seen that in writing but was told so by the US embassy and the INS back in the mid eighties. 
There was a case similar to mine a few years ago where a person succeeded in having her fathers name added to her birth certificate and then gained US citizenship, however due to my mother and father now being deceased it would be difficult to furnish the sworn statements to emulate her victory. In short I may never achieve the goal of citizenship but failure will only occur when I cease trying and that may be when they have to decide which flag to put on the casket. I thank those who gave useful, unbiased information and acknowledge those who in the main appear to be the most senior members, for their input for they have given me much cause for a wry smile by confirming such bias exists. I have no intention of partaking in any form of "slanging match" and will only respond to posts from those who are constructive. I have looked at immigration laws for several countries now and am amazed by the variety and strangeness of many.
God Bless America and in particular those who serve in her Armed Forces
Dave


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