# Music Education in Valencia



## Joddle (Jan 24, 2009)

A warning to all those sending their children to schools in Spain - or at least in Valencia. In Spain the preferred instrument for learning music is like the UK, the recorder BUT the instruments they use here do not conform with the international fingering found in the rest of the world - including the UK. This means that any child going from Spain to the UK or the UK to Spain will find a different fingering being used for the recorder and for my kids that was no explained and was very confusing for them - and for me.

So what is the difference? In most of the world, the recorder uses a Baroque system of fingering which is very precise - and the notes produced are very much in tune. However some German guy at the turn of the last century decided to make the fingering easier to learn and produced a new version of the recorder which looks almost identical but is played differently. The problem is that this particular instrument became discredited int eh 1950s after it was discovered that it also plays other notes slightly out of tune and is therefore never suitable for serious music. In Spain they still use this outdated and inferior recorder in schools.

I am taking this issue up with my kids school as I see no point in them learning something which is going to be of no use later - I would rather they learned the correct fingering on the proper recorder which can then be used for serious music later in their lives.


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

Interesting.


In Primaria here, we were instructed to buy the "Hohner Melody Blockflote" flauta dulce (recorder). From what I remember, certainly when I was at school anyway, the situation here at school in Spain regarding learning music as a subject is certainly more serious, in that the children are actually taught to "read" music, rather than taught the fingering/ABC notes using another method entirely - basically in the early days of recorder club back in the UK when I was at school we weren't taught how to recognise notes at all - there were diagrams or something!! It wasn't until we were further up the school where - oh wow - I played the treble recorder amongst other things!! - that actual reading of music was required!!


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

Tallulah said:


> Interesting.
> 
> 
> In Primaria here, we were instructed to buy the "Hohner Melody Blockflote" flauta dulce (recorder). From what I remember, certainly when I was at school anyway, the situation here at school in Spain regarding learning music as a subject is certainly more serious, in that the children are actually taught to "read" music, rather than taught the fingering/ABC notes using another method entirely - basically in the early days of recorder club back in the UK when I was at school we weren't taught how to recognise notes at all - there were diagrams or something!! It wasn't until we were further up the school where - oh wow - I played the treble recorder amongst other things!! - that actual reading of music was required!!



To be honest, I don't think that unless the children are given private lessons, or indeed attend a conservatorio, that it's something the schools will really take into account with the curriculum.


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## Joddle (Jan 24, 2009)

I agree with some of the above in that in Spain kids learn to read music - and that part is fantastic and will serve them well. BUT when you learn an instrument you also learn involuntary responses (sometimes called muscle memory) and your muscles will respond to the way they have been taught - and in Spain on the recorder that is to a fingering which is imprecise and cannot be used on a "proper" recorder later on in life. In fact anyone wanting to take up the instrument more seriously will have to UNLEARN what they have done and then learn correctly which is s double whammy - why not simply use the international convention which is to use a recorder which is recognized throughout the world and actually plays in tune - not an approximation to being in tune. Why put the kids through it? - the proper instrument is not that much more difficult..


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Does anyone play the recorder once they leave school? Or am I missing the point! BTW, my daughter isnt learning to play any instrument at her school

Jo xxx


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

I've just got my kids to dig out their mochilas for their music books etc and the recorder that they use bears a strong resemblance to the one I used to have all those years ago??!!

I respect your enthusiasm for the subject though - I think obviously the schools have a curriculum they need to get through for kids to learn the basics but unfortunately unless one has a good knowledge of music/instruments then it's something that is better covered either going privately to classes/conservatorios or speaking to the actual music teacher. We've found over several years that often the curriculum (and books that we've had to pay for!) have completely been ignored by the music teacher of the time in order for them to teach how/what they wanted to the children.


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

jojo said:


> Does anyone play the recorder once they leave school? Or am I missing the point! BTW, my daughter isnt learning to play any instrument at her school
> 
> Jo xxx


 I can still play my treble "by ear" !! Have not a clue on remembering how to read music though.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Tallulah said:


> I can still play my treble "by ear" !! Have not a clue on remembering how to read music though.



Of course there's always the exception!  

Jo xxx


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

jojo said:


> Of course there's always the exception!
> 
> Jo xxx




A nice round of "London's burning, London's burning..."


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Tallulah said:


> A nice round of "London's burning, London's burning..."



Thats the one LOL!!! And then there was the christmas carol concert with everyone playing the damn things - badly LOLOL Oh god the memories!!!!


Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Joddle said:


> A warning to all those sending their children to schools in Spain - or at least in Valencia. In Spain the preferred instrument for learning music is like the UK, the recorder BUT the instruments they use here do not conform with the international fingering found in the rest of the world - including the UK. This means that any child going from Spain to the UK or the UK to Spain will find a different fingering being used for the recorder and for my kids that was no explained and was very confusing for them - and for me.
> 
> So what is the difference? In most of the world, the recorder uses a Baroque system of fingering which is very precise - and the notes produced are very much in tune. However some German guy at the turn of the last century decided to make the fingering easier to learn and produced a new version of the recorder which looks almost identical but is played differently. The problem is that this particular instrument became discredited int eh 1950s after it was discovered that it also plays other notes slightly out of tune and is therefore never suitable for serious music. In Spain they still use this outdated and inferior recorder in schools.
> 
> I am taking this issue up with my kids school as I see no point in them learning something which is going to be of no use later - I would rather they learned the correct fingering on the proper recorder which can then be used for serious music later in their lives.


Do you think this is in all of Spain, or perhaps in Valencia, or perhaps in your child's school?
My daughter started the recorder in about third year of primary and continued up until third year of ESO with a year off when the teacher was too scared to use instruments with the class!! I also learnt the recorder (and treble Tallulah! I seem to remember the fingering is different...) and I think the method that they used here was the same that I used. I was taught to read music - and still can! However, I don't have much call for it.
You obviously know what you're talking about when it comes to music teaching, and it's worth trying to discuss it with the teacher and/ or school, but given that we're in May and school finishes in June I wouldn't expect any changes. I would be on the alert at the beginning of the next school year and discuss this with the music teacher as soon as classes begin _*if*_ the same problem comes up again.


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Do you think this is in all of Spain, or perhaps in Valencia, or perhaps in your child's school?
> My daughter started the recorder in about third year of primary and continued up until third year of ESO with a year off when the teacher was too scared to use instruments with the class!! I also learnt the recorder (and treble Tallulah! I seem to remember the fingering is different...) and I think the method that they used here was the same that I used. I was taught to read music - and still can! However, I don't have much call for it.
> You obviously know what you're talking about when it comes to music teaching, and it's worth trying to discuss it with the teacher and/ or school, but given that we're in May and school finishes in June I wouldn't expect any changes. I would be on the alert at the beginning of the next school year and discuss this with the music teacher as soon as classes begin _*if*_ the same problem comes up again.


Aw! I'm getting all nostalgic now (or maybe it's the lunchtime vino) - all those inter-school concerts!!!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Tallulah said:


> Aw! I'm getting all nostalgic now (or maybe it's the lunchtime vino) - all those inter-school concerts!!!


Used to love it!!

We used to play in the school assemblies every morning. I seem to remember lording it over everyone else who had to _sing_ rather than be special and _play._

I went to a very small village school in the Cotswolds- 49 students when I was there, so I can assure you _everyone _knew who the chief recorder players were. All 49 of them!!


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## Guest (May 9, 2010)

Joddle said:


> A warning to all those sending their children to schools in Spain - or at least in Valencia. In Spain the preferred instrument for learning music is like the UK, the recorder BUT the instruments they use here do not conform with the international fingering found in the rest of the world - including the UK. This means that any child going from Spain to the UK or the UK to Spain will find a different fingering being used for the recorder and for my kids that was no explained and was very confusing for them - and for me.
> 
> So what is the difference? In most of the world, the recorder uses a Baroque system of fingering which is very precise - and the notes produced are very much in tune. However some German guy at the turn of the last century decided to make the fingering easier to learn and produced a new version of the recorder which looks almost identical but is played differently. The problem is that this particular instrument became discredited int eh 1950s after it was discovered that it also plays other notes slightly out of tune and is therefore never suitable for serious music. In Spain they still use this outdated and inferior recorder in schools.
> 
> I am taking this issue up with my kids school as I see no point in them learning something which is going to be of no use later - I would rather they learned the correct fingering on the proper recorder which can then be used for serious music later in their lives.


Shouldn't we look at the bigger picture here? The kids are learning to read music. That, in itself, is amazing. We never learned how in my school - just fingering charts! Also, how much do your "proper" recorders cost here? Finally, aren't most kids who want to become serious musicians (or whose parents want them to become serious musicians) in the Conservatorio, learning "proper" instruments?


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## Guest (May 9, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Do you think this is in all of Spain, or perhaps in Valencia, or perhaps in your child's school?
> 
> ...
> 
> You obviously know what you're talking about when it comes to music teaching, and it's worth trying to discuss it with the teacher and/ or school, but given that we're in May and school finishes in June I wouldn't expect any changes. I would be on the alert at the beginning of the next school year and discuss this with the music teacher as soon as classes begin _*if*_ the same problem comes up again.


I spoke with my OH and he teaches the _flauta alemana_ as well. He's not looking for professional recorder players, just that the kids have fun and learn to appreciate music, giving them the base for possibly continuing with music later in their lives. I've seen them play - they're great! 


Regarding talking to the teacher, I'm not really sure I'm in agreement with picking a debate about two different types of recorders. What should we teach, British or American English? Depends. If you're REALLY concerned, look up the competencias basicas for music in Valencia, and go from there.


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

Yeah, that was pretty much my point earlier Halydia. I think I know where Joddle is coming from if they're someone who has a great interest in music - but i think that "serious" side back in the UK came at GCSE and A-level, otherwise it was down to private lessons etc - pretty much the same from what I see here.


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## Joddle (Jan 24, 2009)

I seem to have opened a can of worms (or squeals) here. I was only concerned because I regard music as an important subject and if taught well one which is good for kids. I simply did not want them wasting energy on a skill which might need renewing later. And yes I remember well the noises from my own youth - and it was listening to my kids doing the same which brought this all up as I was trying to play with them on my own UK recorder but the two instruments, although in appearance near identical, were producing even odder strange sounds when played together - and yes cats do ring a bell.... From simply looking at the recorders I could not tell the difference between them until an expert pointed out the very small changes to some of the holes. Happy blowing folks...


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Joddle said:


> I seem to have opened a can of worms (or squeals) here. I was only concerned because I regard music as an important subject and if taught well one which is good for kids. I simply did not want them wasting energy on a skill which might need renewing later. And yes I remember well the noises from my own youth - and it was listening to my kids doing the same which brought this all up as I was trying to play with them on my own UK recorder but the two instruments, although in appearance near identical, were producing even odder strange sounds when played together - and yes cats do ring a bell.... From simply looking at the recorders I could not tell the difference between them until an expert pointed out the very small changes to some of the holes. Happy blowing folks...


Ok, I've got to say this and I'm sorry. But does it matter which fingers are used to play the recorder in school! Is it really going to affect their future love or not of music or their education in that or any other subject??? LOL

jo xxx


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jojo said:


> Does anyone play the recorder once they leave school? Or am I missing the point! BTW, my daughter isnt learning to play any instrument at her school
> 
> Jo xxx


I do - & still have a range of different sized recorders that I played in competitions as a teen.

my daughters now use them - dd1 took my very expensive (& now old!) treble recorder to school last week - the teacher was amazed!

I have to say to the OP that the slightly different fingering & hasn't caused any problems for my dd - she had learned to play in the UK at school & from me before we came here & has often been chosen to perform solos at school concerts

tbh we hadn't really thought about it - a new language to learn was way up on the list of 'problems' when they started school here


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## Normatheexdiva (Jan 29, 2009)

Ahem, I'll remember that next time we meet. I have 5 treble recorders, 4 descants, a tenor and a great deal of music. 
All in 'proper' fingering. 
You can't escape....I find Brian Bonsor's books to be very good for teaching, for yea, that is what I am actually qualified to do. 
Sad, but true.
xx





Tallulah said:


> Interesting.
> 
> 
> In Primaria here, we were instructed to buy the "Hohner Melody Blockflote" flauta dulce (recorder). From what I remember, certainly when I was at school anyway, the situation here at school in Spain regarding learning music as a subject is certainly more serious, in that the children are actually taught to "read" music, rather than taught the fingering/ABC notes using another method entirely - basically in the early days of recorder club back in the UK when I was at school we weren't taught how to recognise notes at all - there were diagrams or something!! It wasn't until we were further up the school where - oh wow - I played the treble recorder amongst other things!! - that actual reading of music was required!!


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## Joddle (Jan 24, 2009)

Oh wow - what a hornets nest I seem to have stirred up - and some very interesting comments as well.... Thanks to you all for your time to comment and what fun some of you have had...

Just to put the record straight, as has been said above, I am really thinking of the kids who may have the ability to go further with their music than most actually do. Like most of you I hadn't even thought of differences in instruments from one country to another - I had simply assumed a drum is a drum and a violin is a violin and naturally a recorder is a recorder - but I was wrong on at least the last count. When I heard my daughter playing my UK recorder at home it sounded even more dire than a recorder normally sounds and I wanted to know why - and thats when I realised there was an actual difference in the fingering and in the construction of the instrument. The reason I am so concerned about this is that in the UK we were fortunate to have the teaching services of a real recorder expert (and yes there is such a thing) who taught using the international and professionally recognised methods - and now here in Spain my daughter is expected to play her school issued recorder in this new way - and when she finishes this school she will then have to revert to the UK method if she wants to go further with her playing or indeed if she wants to play any serious music at all - as the instrument on which she is being taught is simply not capable of that. 

To sum up:
1) yes I agree with all of you who say that learning to read music is a real advantage and that part of the teaching here in Spain is superior to that in most UK schools. And that is a real advantage for anyone who is learning music.

2) I also agree that most kids won't want to progress with the recorder once out of primary school so for them the matter is academic - in fact they might as well learn on the tin whistle which is far cheaper than any recorder.

3) however there is an accredited international standard for the recorder; and also an inferior and discredited one - so why is Spain still using it??

And for those of you who had not heard of serious recorder music you might wish to listen to this...


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

I'll tell you what annoys me! Typing!!!!!!! Forget the finger use on a recorder, why is it that schools either in Spain or the UK have not ever tried to teach pupils to type! None of my five children know how to type efficiently, they all use just two fingers?!!! 

In the olden days the old secondary schools used to teach pupils how to touch type quickly and accurately. Now, in this day of pcs, word processors and keyboards, they dont teach it!?????

Jo xxx


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jojo said:


> I'll tell you what annoys me! Typing!!!!!!! Forget the finger use on a recorder, why is it that schools either in Spain or the UK have not ever tried to teach pupils to type! None of my five children know how to type efficiently, they all use just two fingers?!!!
> 
> In the olden days the old secondary schools used to teach pupils how to touch type quickly and accurately. Now, in this day of pcs, word processors and keyboards, they dont teach it!?????
> 
> Jo xxx


my 14 year old has been taught to touch type at school:clap2:


she puts me to shame


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

xabiachica said:


> my 14 year old has been taught to touch type at school:clap2:
> 
> 
> she puts me to shame


Huh! Was that in Spain?? Maybe we missed it then??

Jo xxx


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## Normatheexdiva (Jan 29, 2009)

Hi,
Here's what I'd do if it was one of my kids. Next time someone goes back to the UK, go and buy either an Aulos or a Yamaha plastic recorder and a good book (like the Bonsor books).
My Aulos Treble is 30 years old - possibly more as I can't remember quite when I bought it.
Don't buy a wooden one unless you are a pro. What will happen, is that the humidity changes can seriously affect the tuning.
I have a Dolmetsch Treble that is sharp on the highest note (G)and needs to be retuned and it is very annoying. No Brandenburg 2 for me on that instrument. 

If they want to go ahead with studies, buy the Associated Board exam lists and see if you can find a teacher. You may even find that the AB send examiners to international schools. We met an examiner in Singapore, of all places, but learned that nearly all the children learn piano and they prefer the UK exams. 
The scale books for the AB are excellent.

You may find that the International Schools have UK trained music teachers who can help. 
But, regarding the fingering. Any budding musician will learn piano and will learn to read treble clef and bass clef. Flexibility is part of the talent.
Most children learn recorder first and then piano and maybe a stringed instrument or another wind instrument. All will have different skills attached and the flexibility that goes with it, will give a child a great advantage in many other subjects.
If a child can cope with different clefs and instruments, the slight difference between the two systems won't cause a problem.
xxx







Joddle said:


> Oh wow - what a hornets nest I seem to have stirred up - and some very interesting comments as well.... Thanks to you all for your time to comment and what fun some of you have had...
> 
> Just to put the record straight, as has been said above, I am really thinking of the kids who may have the ability to go further with their music than most actually do. Like most of you I hadn't even thought of differences in instruments from one country to another - I had simply assumed a drum is a drum and a violin is a violin and naturally a recorder is a recorder - but I was wrong on at least the last count. When I heard my daughter playing my UK recorder at home it sounded even more dire than a recorder normally sounds and I wanted to know why - and thats when I realised there was an actual difference in the fingering and in the construction of the instrument. The reason I am so concerned about this is that in the UK we were fortunate to have the teaching services of a real recorder expert (and yes there is such a thing) who taught using the international and professionally recognised methods - and now here in Spain my daughter is expected to play her school issued recorder in this new way - and when she finishes this school she will then have to revert to the UK method if she wants to go further with her playing or indeed if she wants to play any serious music at all - as the instrument on which she is being taught is simply not capable of that.
> 
> ...


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## Joddle (Jan 24, 2009)

A new thread here I think - I agree - its almost criminal for kids not to be taught to type as it will lead to very serious problems with their hands later in life if they continue using two fingers as I have done most of my life - and am now suffering so much from it I had to consider giving up work which involved a lot of keyboard work - this is an international problem but not everywhere in all countries - there are a few schools doing it - but not many at all, and this should be obligatory.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jojo said:


> Huh! Was that in Spain?? Maybe we missed it then??
> 
> Jo xxx


yep - right here in Spain last year - yr 1 ESO in the informática optitativa


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

xabiachica said:


> yep - right here in Spain last year - yr 1 ESO in the informática optitativa



It should be done in the infants schools tho, dont you think???? I'd have been happy any old time with any of mine!!!

Sorry I've digressed off topìc. Its not that I'm not interested in music - well I'm not particularly, probably cos I come from a family of musicians, some of whom are actually world class and well known in their chosen fields - there arent any recorder players tho lol!!! I'm the "black sheep" !

Anyway :focus::focus: 

Jo xxx


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jojo said:


> It should be done in the infants schools tho, dont you think???? I'd have been happy any old time with any of mine!!!
> 
> Sorry I've digressed off topìc. Its not that I'm not interested in music - well I'm not particularly, probably cos I come from a family of musicians, some of whom are actually world class and well known in their chosen fields - there arent any recorder players tho lol!!! I'm the "black sheep" !
> 
> ...


It should be taught earlier, I agree

I never learned at school - according to our oh-so-forward-thinking headmistress, us grammar school girls would never need to type


we'd have secretaries to do it for us


I do honestly still play the recorder though - the bassoon (which I played in the school orchestra) just wasn't as portable!


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

Normatheexdiva said:


> Ahem, I'll remember that next time we meet. I have 5 treble recorders, 4 descants, a tenor and a great deal of music.
> All in 'proper' fingering.
> You can't escape....I find Brian Bonsor's books to be very good for teaching, for yea, that is what I am actually qualified to do.
> Sad, but true.
> xx


Oh god, yeah!! :doh: I completely forgot - you taught that as well, didn't you ?? lol - I was probably blown away with the singing last time! Well that certainly promises to be a very entertaining meet up again this summer!!:spit:

You, me, PW, Xabi, Jojo, Joddle - forming an expat recorder group. Get practicing girls!!!!:lalala:

xxxx


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

xabiachica said:


> I do honestly still play the recorder though - the bassoon (which I played in the school orchestra) just wasn't as portable!


I think I'm glad I dont live next door to you then 

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Tallulah said:


> Oh god, yeah!! :doh: I completely forgot - you taught that as well, didn't you ?? lol - I was probably blown away with the singing last time! Well that certainly promises to be a very entertaining meet up again this summer!!:spit:
> 
> You, me, PW, Xabi, Jojo, Joddle - forming an expat recorder group. Get practicing girls!!!!:lalala:
> 
> xxxx


Hahaha - that's a good one!!

I remember B flat, but not too sure about A sharp...
Maybe get owdoggy on the drums... 
Hahaha,
That's really tickled me.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jojo said:


> I think I'm glad I dont live next door to you then
> 
> Jo xxx


the OH hates the recorder - even though we all play (me & 2 dds) pretty well together


if the girls get sent to their rooms the recorders always come out to pi$$ him off

unless he remembers to say 'go to your room & NO RECORDER!!!'


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## Normatheexdiva (Jan 29, 2009)

You've been enharmonically confuddled....
The most mind-stretching piece that I have is Telemann's Concerto for Flute and Recorder (treble in F) and it's in E minor. Ow.
xx




Pesky Wesky said:


> Hahaha - that's a good one!!
> 
> I remember B flat, but not too sure about A sharp...
> Maybe get owdoggy on the drums...
> ...


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## sukiee (Feb 8, 2011)

*music teaching*

Hi
I want to move to spain. I am a professional musician but I mainly teach one to one on piano and wind instruments. Could someone tell me how music teaching works in spain. Do they have music peripetetic teachers or can yu teach privately? Is there any demand for it etc etc. Have read the thread on recorders how weird but interesting.

sukiee


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