# A petition for American citizens who have to pay taxes from the UAE.



## Taxfight (Dec 3, 2014)

My parents and myself currently live in Dubai, neither of them are American by blood but used to live there with a green card, I was born in Germany Dusseldorf, and as of around 6 years ago or so we went to America to get a passport as we kept traveling back and forth between Dubai and America every 6 months. My parents are now living very fashionably, in a huge house with 3 Porsche vehicles etc. However they didn't always live so fashionably, they originally had absolutely nothing, they tried their luck in Germany and failed. They heard the rumours of the fashionable and developing UAE, my dad decided that it may be our best shot so we moved here, and for around 3 years we had absolutely nothing, we even struggled with paying rent (I was very young so I didn't know what was going on but they filled me in on the details), we barely had money for food as well. However over time my parents business started picking up speed and they are now one of the highest leading Dry Cleaning agencies in the UAE selling dry cleaning machines to companies such as Emirates airlines from Germany.
That being said, they finally got where they always wanted to be, until about 2 months ago we were informed that we could be treated as felons for having hidden our money from the American Government.

However the truth of the matter is I feel that it is very unjust towards us, and I am sure, many more like us feel the same way, Having to pay taxes to a country which gives us very limited or even no benefits such as healthcare. We have not even received any help for our company to reach where it is today and suddenly they demand that we are to pay them taxes for no reason.

Because of this I decided to do some research for my petition and found a lot of things wrong with the system.

(some of this information may be wrong, if so, please point it out so I can revise it)

America’s oversees tax laws require the filing of your taxes, and if your income is beyond a certain margin you have to start paying taxes to a country which you take no benefits from. Even if you do not have an American passport there are still several ways in which you end up having to pay taxes, while many people are not even aware of this. This includes but is not limited to:
• Having a Green Card.
• American parents even though you have never visited America or been born there.
• Investments on American soil.
• Extended holiday vacations in America which lasted months.
• A family member who is married to an American.
• Alimony taxes even though only one spouse is American.

In the year 2001 the total of oversees tax was 3.5 billion USD. It was predicted that by the start of the year 2006, this tax money would rise by 2.5 billion USD.

Due to the rising costs of taxes in the year 2011 over 5 million oversea Americans reconsidered their American citizenship.

Due to the constant amount of people who are expatriating, the American government has started to make the process of expatriating a lot more difficult and complicated as of 2011.

Pressuring us into an unfair Ultimatum. Either we pay the taxes for a country we don’t even reap any benefits from as a law abiding citizen, or we refuse to and get treated as felons for it, while many of us have reached our position without the help of the country.

Many people who are living in Countries such as Canada but lived in America most of their lives also experience several problems. Despite the establishment of a tax treaty.

However among other things the American tax system has also cheated its citizens out of money. Due to the fact that many ancestors were in debt, the money owed had been extracted from the taxes of their descendants.

In the long run however all this does is cause America to lose money, for if their laws had not become so restraining many people would be a lot more comfortable in investing on American soil. And right now, with the regulations set in place, it will cause many people who have started a living in other countries to lose their jobs and have lost everything they have worked towards just because of a misunderstanding in regards to having to pay tax.

Do you think it is fair for me to start a petition to counter act this? and if so perhaps someone can tell me what a reasonable goal for the petition can be? Either not having to pay the unpaid taxes of previous years or reducing the required tax payments for people overseas based on the situation we are in (such as ourselves).
I also wanted to use the internet to publicise this petition, using popular sites even for an overwhelming amout of support (kony2012 anyone?)

Of course I also hope to use newspapers and perhaps news stations even.

We will need 100 000 petition in 30 days if we wish to this. I also wish to see if anybody thinks we should keep this to the gulf or make it a viral cause. Perhaps it is possible to not have to pay any taxes to America since we are not receiving any benefits?


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## TallyHo (Aug 21, 2011)

Do you and your parents hold US passports?

If so, there's ****** all you can do. You should have done the research when you decided to pursue obtaining US passports. There's obviously a lot more to your story that you aren't telling, you're implying you started going to the US six years ago yet you managed to obtain the passports while still living in the UAE?

You may want to renounce the citizenship and never set foot on US soil again. That is probably your best recourse if you want to avoid paying the penalties.


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## The Rascal (Aug 6, 2014)

Taxfight said:


> we went to America to get a passport


And there my friend is the problem, you wanted the American Passport and all the benefits, but you now don't want to pay for it.

100,000 people to get a law changed that brings in over $6bn a year - good luck with that then.


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## Taxfight (Dec 3, 2014)

TallyHo said:


> Do you and your parents hold US passports?
> 
> If so, there's ****** all you can do. You should have done the research when you decided to pursue obtaining US passports. There's obviously a lot more to your story that you aren't telling, you're implying you started going to the US six years ago yet you managed to obtain the passports while still living in the UAE?
> 
> You may want to renounce the citizenship and never set foot on US soil again. That is probably your best recourse if you want to avoid paying the penalties.


Sorry I miss phrased that, we got our passports 6 years ago. and during that time we travelled between the US and UAE every 6 months.


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## Taxfight (Dec 3, 2014)

The Rascal said:


> And there my friend is the problem, you wanted the American Passport and all the benefits, but you now don't want to pay for it.
> 
> 100,000 people to get a law changed that brings in over $6bn a year - good luck with that then.


Yeah I feel like cancelling the tax requirements seems a little over the top but that is exactly my point, we get no benefits from living in the US, no Medicare or retirement homes. You could argue that we don't have to pay for visas when visiting countries as long as it is within 3 months but considering how costly the taxes are we would rather pay for visas. Plus America in no way helped my parents with the establishment of their company, seems rather unjust to me.


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## Simey (Dec 4, 2012)

There are way too few expats spread out in way too many districts for us to have a prayer of getting the law changed on this. Sorry, that's just reality. 

Be grateful for the income exclusion that applies. I wouldn't be surprised if that goes away at some point.

Anyway, the bottom line is, if you are a citizen of any country, you have to comply with the law of that country, or take steps to renounce that citizenship. And by the way, if you are male and of the right age, have you registered for Selective Service? :usa2:


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## Taxfight (Dec 3, 2014)

Simey said:


> There are way too few expats spread out in way too many districts for us to have a prayer of getting the law changed on this. Sorry, that's just reality.
> 
> Be grateful for the income exclusion that applies. I wouldn't be surprised if that goes away at some point.
> 
> Anyway, the bottom line is, if you are a citizen of any country, you have to comply with the law of that country, or take steps to renounce that citizenship. And by the way, if you are male and of the right age, have you registered for Selective Service? :usa2:


Thank you, I appreciate the realism and yes I did.


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## XDoodlebugger (Jan 24, 2012)

I feel your pain but the last thing I would do is draw attention to myself. Having been audited by the IRS myself I have personal experience that they can be as mean and nasty as anyone out there.

Best to find yourself a good tax lawyer that knows a thing or two of foreign earned income and take their advice.


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## INFAMOUS (Apr 19, 2011)

There should be a passport exchange program.... I'd trade you my CAD for your USA lol.


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## twowheelsgood (Feb 21, 2013)

Laughable.

Your passport and taxation system go hand in hand - you cannot have one without the other.

I really couldn't care less what the US Tax system is so am hardly likely to support a petition - neither is anyone else.

I assume you're a Republican who believes in low taxes and is actually trying to avoid them completely ?


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## Stevesolar (Dec 21, 2012)

Hi,
In my simple way of looking at this:-
US Passport acquired = Play by their rules
Simples!
Cheers
Steve


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## Fat Bhoy Tim (Feb 28, 2013)

The only three letters that scare me are IRS. 

I'm a dual national who's never worked in the US nor owns property there, but I fill out my taxes every year - not that I pay any. If I ran into any serious problems it's the US embassy/consultant I'd be heading to, not the British one.


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## Simey (Dec 4, 2012)

twowheelsgood said:


> Laughable.
> 
> Your passport and taxation system go hand in hand - you cannot have one without the other.
> 
> ...


If I might speak for the OP, it is legitimate for even Republicans to have an opinion on their own government. In fact, the right to petition for redress is written into our Constitution. 

Your country, among pretty much all other countries on Earth, does not require expats to pay taxes. It's not illegitimate for Americans to agitate for the same treatment from their government. Also, don't forget, Americans always retain the right to vote wherever they live, unlike certain other countries I could mention. 

There are however historical and constitutional reasons why US income taxes are individually apportioned and therefore follow you wherever you are. It's also a political reality that Congress doesn't respond much to very thinly spread out interest groups. 

The district and state you vote in is usually where you (or in some cases, your parents) last resided. That means our votes are really spread out and so there isn't an easy way for non-military expats to represent a meaningful voting bloc. So I think this is a legitimate gripe, but a bit of a hopeless cause.


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## Gavtek (Aug 23, 2009)

Freedom isn't free. There's a hefty f***ing fee.


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## twowheelsgood (Feb 21, 2013)

Simey said:


> blah blah blah blah.


The point is that expecting foreigners to support your cause of paying even less taxes than the already low rate is a bit silly.

Your country is already massively split between the haves and have-nots, social mobility is dying due to strangehold that the moneyed have on opportunity, so expecting anyone from countries with more of a social conscience to support the already wealthy in the US, is optimistic at best.

I'm not suggesting that you don;t have the right to fight for your own country and its systems - just don't expect anyone with half a brain to support you


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## Simey (Dec 4, 2012)

twowheelsgood said:


> The point is that expecting foreigners to support your cause of paying even less taxes than the already low rate is a bit silly.
> 
> Your country is already massively split between the haves and have-nots, social mobility is dying due to strangehold that the moneyed have on opportunity, so expecting anyone from countries with more of a social conscience to support the already wealthy in the US, is optimistic at best.
> 
> I'm not suggesting that you don;t have the right to fight for your own country and its systems - just don't expect anyone with half a brain to support you


Two wheels,

Grow up. 

Second, I think OP was inviting Americans to sign the petition. Your views on US government are as you correctly point out, irrelevant.


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## TallyHo (Aug 21, 2011)

Speaking as one Brit to another, you aren't in a position to gloat over Americans. Last I heard the UK is also massively split between the haves and have-nots with declining social mobility. Haven't you opened a UK paper recently? Noticed the political and societal tug of war over everything ranging from taxes to the morality of independent schools?

I don't kiss the Guardian's arse but even I acknowledge the UK has serious social problems, which are just as bad, or even worse, than the US. Except for a national health care. That's the only area we can legitimately claim superiority. Otherwise assuming some sort of moral claim on a so called social conscience is quite hypocritical. Even more so considering you're an expat in the Gulf and exempt from paying any taxes on overseas income to the UK.



twowheelsgood said:


> Your country is already massively split between the haves and have-nots, social mobility is dying due to strangehold that the moneyed have on opportunity, so expecting anyone from countries with more of a social conscience to support the already wealthy in the US, is optimistic at best.
> )


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## twowheelsgood (Feb 21, 2013)

My view is irrelevant as you say, but I have the right to express it. You can of course ignore it.

The USA is far more divided than the Uk, health outcomes are worse, social mobility is worse and the rich are plundering the economy. 

Quoting the Guardian means nothing to 99% of the population as TallyHo rightly points out - moral crusades run by Oxford and Cambridge literary graduates is hypocritical. having a socially dependent class of people in the Uk is a major problem as if we get any worse, we will end up like the USA with a clear divide between the millionaires who pay practically no taxes and the poor.

And yes, i don't pay taxes here like TallyHo - but I have paid all my years contributions and still do. I don't 'campaign' top pay even less knowing that people even poorer than me will suffer.


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## The Rascal (Aug 6, 2014)

I might be a little naive here, but why doesn't the OP rescind his citizenship, passport etc. (as many have and are doing) and go bake to his original passport?

or is that not acceptable.


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## TallyHo (Aug 21, 2011)

Have you ever lived in the US?

I have. 

What you describe doesn't exist. At least not on the scale you imply. 

To start with, the top 10% of Americans pay 70% of federal income tax revenues in the US. 

The rich pay majority of U.S. income taxes - Mar. 12, 2013

So they aren't avoiding paying taxes. 

The US is not without its faults, but nor is the US without its virtues. Trying to pretend that the UK is somehow different or better is grossly misleading. 

Did I find the Americans rather contemptuous of its own poor? Yes. But so is the UK. After all, contempt for benefit scroungers is a very popular topic in the UK as well as the general disdain for TOWIES/chavs. UK housing estates are pretty deprived and nasty places too. 

Is immigration a hot topic in the US? Yes. But then again what is the most divisive issue in the UK at the moment? Immigration.

Is racism a problem in the US? It can be called the American national disease. But what about social class in the UK? The periodic spats over independent schools emphasizes how divided the country remains. And before we look at Ferguson and say that could never happen in the UK, remember the London riots a few years ago....primarily led by racial minorities and in areas with heavy racial minority populations. They have their grievances too. 

Is the split between Republican and Democratic voters over the extent of the government bailouts and taxes real in the US? Yes. But then again it's the same in the UK between Labour and Tory voters, with half the country supporting Cameron/Osbourne's austerity programmes and the other half decrying it. 

The two countries are more similar than dissimilar on societal problems and quite often these issues are ones that can't be easily legislated away by meaningful politicians. 




twowheelsgood said:


> My view is irrelevant as you say, but I have the right to express it. You can of course ignore it.
> 
> The USA is far more divided than the Uk, health outcomes are worse, social mobility is worse and the rich are plundering the economy.
> 
> ...


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## Taxfight (Dec 3, 2014)

twowheelsgood said:


> Laughable.
> 
> Your passport and taxation system go hand in hand - you cannot have one without the other.
> 
> ...


I think people keep misunderstand, it is one thing if got benefits from the American government, but as it stands, we keep dishing out money to a country that doesn't give anything in return, tax is for the people!

Perhaps it would be one thing if America in some way helped my parents start up the company but they didn't, we don't want all foreigners to not pay for taxes just people in our kind of situation who reap no benefits.


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## Taxfight (Dec 3, 2014)

The Rascal said:


> I might be a little naive here, but why doesn't the OP rescind his citizenship, passport etc. (as many have and are doing) and go bake to his original passport?
> 
> or is that not acceptable.


You have a point, but when my parents started their business in Dubai they still travelled between between America and Dubai in order to not lose their green cards, after deciding it is too hard we got the passport instead. Honestly? The only reason we tried for a citizenship was because our Iranian passports have terrorist written all over it so we had to opt for getting American passports so when we decide to travel we don't get harassed every single time. I remember once at the age of 15 or 16 we went to American and I was stopped because I grew out a little goatee so they thought the worst.


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## The Rascal (Aug 6, 2014)

Surely the benefit is having the US passport and the visa free advantages that go with it, and, not least the support that US citizens get if anything goes wrong in a foreign country which looks to me as the best support anywhere.


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## Taxfight (Dec 3, 2014)

The Rascal said:


> Surely the benefit is having the US passport and the visa free advantages that go with it, and, not least the support that US citizens get if anything goes wrong in a foreign country which looks to me as the best support anywhere.


It would be cheaper to get the actual visa to be honest, and honestly, what are the chances of a war breaking out?


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## dizzyizzy (Mar 30, 2008)

Taxfight said:


> The only reason we tried for a citizenship was because our Iranian passports have terrorist written all over it so we had to opt for getting American passports so when we decide to travel we don't get harassed every single time. I remember once at the age of 15 or 16 we went to American and I was stopped because I grew out a little goatee so they thought the worst.


And that itself is the 'benefit' you are reaping my friend. 

When I fly back to Mexico via Dallas I inevitably get harassed because unlucky to me my last name is the same of a dangerous mexican drug lord and I was born in the same city as him  I could've applied for a US passport ages ago but no thanks.


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## Tropicana (Apr 29, 2010)

The Rascal said:


> Surely the benefit is having the US passport and the visa free advantages that go with it, and, not least the support that US citizens get if anything goes wrong in a foreign country which looks to me as the best support anywhere.


I think the potential "rescue mission" if things go **** up is the only real benefit a long-time expat with an American passport gets, as opposed to the Canadian/Antipodean and even British ones, which offer better prospects for "gaming" the system due to their welfare benefits.


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## james_ (Dec 6, 2014)

Do American citizens always have that option of a "rescue mission"? I am not so sure.


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## w_man (Apr 16, 2010)

INFAMOUS said:


> There should be a passport exchange program.... I'd trade you my CAD for your USA lol.


Boooourns!!!

:canada::canada::canada:

OP - As others have mentioned, you have the right (as per your American citizenship) to petition the tax laws of US but chances are that it will not go anywhere. Whether you believe it or not, there are some basic benefits you have for being an American. 

Chances of a war breaking out in the ME? Emm - this region isn't generally very stable - UAE is sure but who knows what tomorrow holds. 

I think the better investment of your time and money would be to talk to a tax lawyer and discuss some realistic options. Perhaps make a deal with the IRS. My understanding is that you don't want to be on the s*it list of the IRS - they are worst than cartels :boxing:


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## Simey (Dec 4, 2012)

james_ said:


> Do American citizens always have that option of a "rescue mission"? I am not so sure.


Yes, it's at the option of the US Government.


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## jgw99 (May 26, 2014)

dizzyizzy said:


> And that itself is the 'benefit' you are reaping my friend.
> 
> When I fly back to Mexico via Dallas I inevitably get harassed because unlucky to me my last name is the same of a dangerous mexican drug lord and I was born in the same city as him  I could've applied for a US passport ages ago but no thanks.


Couldn't agree more. OP has the right to organize and petition for a change in the law but I doubt it will be retroactive (in the highly unlikely scenario that it does get changed anyway). Tough to pick and choose rights/privileges/responsibilities attached to nationality that is only beneficial to individual situations.

By no means am I happy with the fact that the I need to file taxes wherever I am in the world, have to be forced to have to buy medical insurance while I'm in the country, provide my SSN to every bank acct I end up opening almost anywhere in the world, etc. But I also love the fact that I don't have to deal with visa application when visiting most countries. 

Privileges and responsibilities. There is what's called renunciation of citizenship. Don't think it's that difficult to undertake.


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## XDoodlebugger (Jan 24, 2012)

w_man said:


> Chances of a war breaking out in the ME? Emm - this region isn't generally very stable - UAE is sure but who knows what tomorrow holds.


Yes, I would imagine a lot of people thought that Kuwait was in no danger up until the day Iraq decided to invade.

On a side note I have been evacuated/rescued from a nasty civil war in Chad by the French military, not sure why they weren't running away as usual but thankful they pulled me out.

The only help I received from the US government was a $100 handout when I landed in Amsterdam penniless (no cash, no cards, not a good feeling).

Of course there is considerable more US military presence here as opposed to the middle of Africa.


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## w_man (Apr 16, 2010)

XDoodle****** said:


> On a side note I have been evacuated/rescued from a nasty civil war in Chad by the French military, not sure why they weren't running away as usual but thankful they pulled me out.


:lol:


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## w_man (Apr 16, 2010)

I guess there are a few Americans ticked off about America's tax laws:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/08/opinion/why-im-giving-up-my-american-citizenship-passport.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=c-column-top-span-region&region=c-column-top-span-region&WT.nav=c-column-top-span-region&_r=1


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## jgw99 (May 26, 2014)

w_man said:


> I guess there are a few Americans ticked off about America's tax laws:
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/08/opinion/why-im-giving-up-my-american-citizenship-passport.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=c-column-top-span-region&region=c-column-top-span-region&WT.nav=c-column-top-span-region&_r=1


Love the article and makes total sense. Unfortunately, low totem pole of priorities of lawmakers. 

Last line: The founders agreed on “no taxation without representation.” Why can’t Congress?

---Ever see DC license plates?


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## Simey (Dec 4, 2012)

jgw99 said:


> Love the article and makes total sense. Unfortunately, low totem pole of priorities of lawmakers.
> 
> Last line: The founders agreed on “no taxation without representation.” Why can’t Congress?
> 
> ---Ever see DC license plates?


It's a good article but the author is wrong about not having representation. We have representation, but according to wherever we happen to be from. So if you are talking about expats as a voting group, the vote is very diluted.

I suppose we could fix this by all en masse electing to move our residency to the same state. Preferably one with no state income tax. :eyebrows:


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