# Pellet hopper boiler



## lynda s

Had a hopper boiler installed last month combined with roof solar panel. Great job. So much cheaper to run than gas, or logs.


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## travelling-man

We're just about to start renovating the old barn that we have on the side if the house and heating/hot water will obviously be part of that so I need to look into it all again. 

How long do you think your new system will take to pay for itself and how do you mean the hopper boiler gives you hot water for central heating and hot water etc please?


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## canoeman

we estimated on our diesel consumption that converting to a bio mass burner @ 2,500€ payback wold be 18 months in cost and higher efficiency.

Problem with pellet fires is heat rating and the ones that fit into a "room" generally quite low output, Solzima have a new one for heat, hot water & C/H reasonable price attractive but way to small KW for us which is why where considering a conversion unit to replace the diesel burner unit


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## lynda s

In order to give us the output we need to heat the whole house in winter, and give us hot water, we have the hopper boiler in the garage. We have a 300 litre water tank next to that which is heated by solar when boiler not in use. We are in UK at present, but returning to Portugal later this month. If you would like to see the boiler in action, we would be more than happy to show you. We live in Pedreiras, so don't know if that is within reasonable distance to you. The system is very clean and easy to use.


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## canoeman

Ah so you've installed a true boiler as opposed to a dual purpose unit that acts as a focal point fire heat source as well, we already have a "diesel" fired version of this we are considering replacing the burner unit with a biomass burner & hopper , maybe TM could do this as well if output sufficient to heat barn as well as house if he added solar.


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## travelling-man

canoeman said:


> Ah so you've installed a true boiler as opposed to a dual purpose unit that acts as a focal point fire heat source as well, we already have a "diesel" fired version of this we are considering replacing the burner unit with a biomass burner & hopper , maybe TM could do this as well if output sufficient to heat barn as well as house if he added solar.


That's pretty much what I was thinking and will spend some time looking into it whilst we're waiting for the builders to get around to giving us the estimates for the renovation. 

As is typical of Portugal, they're not exactly rushing the process!


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## lynda s

We would have installed a pellet fire in the living room, if we could have had a high enough output to heat the whole house. There was one we could have had but it was very big, and it would have meant taking away the fireplace and brace wall to install. We decided against that. We already had radiators anyway, as there was a gas central heating system in place. This was really not cost effective, as it ran from two large gas cylinders, and we were using one cylinder per week, at a cost of 102 euros a time. Plus logs for the open fire. However, the pellets cost 250 euros for a ton (66bags). Top quality pellets. 1 bag lasts about 8-10 hours. The boiler is easy to clean, and only needs the ashcan emptying once every 10 days or so, depending on usage. It's just a fine powder.
The only downside is that it will go off during a power cut, but this is the same with any system. Our next purchase will be a stand by generator for emergency electricity, so no loss of central heating in winter.
Our system took 3 days to install, including solar panel. The workmen cleaned up after themselves, and were polite and punctual. Great job, well pleased.


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## canoeman

Consider a small PV panel sufficient to power boiler, hopper and pump, power cuts generally not that extensive


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## baldilocks

We were investigating using a pellet burner (we only have a log burner in the lounge that heats that side of the house [3 floors]) plus an instantaneous gas boiler (bottles) for hot water. The running cost for logs is about €200 (@ €100 per tonne) per winter and a gas bottle (€16) every 2½ weeks for both the hot water and for cooking.

The pellet burner and installation costs would be €5000 plus €3300 for the plumbing (pipes, radiators, etc.). We have decided that with 140 years pay-back just for the installation, it was just not an economical proposition and that was without taking into account the running costs (pellets, electricity, etc.). True, with the pellet burner, the comfort level would probably have been better but...


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## lynda s

canoeman said:


> Consider a small PV panel sufficient to power boiler, hopper and pump, power cuts generally not that extensive


Hi sorry to be a pain, but what is a PV panel please?


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## baldilocks

lynda s said:


> Hi sorry to be a pain, but what is a PV panel please?


PV = Photo Voltaic - produces electricity from sunlight.


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## canoeman

The electrical version of your hot water solar panels turn UV into electricity


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## lynda s

Thank you for that. Although in winter, it wouldn't work, would it?


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## travelling-man

I think they work year round but the old problem of cost effectiveness will still raise it's ugly head.

I'd also like to use the option of solar hot water but if it takes longer than it's expected/average life expectancy it just ain't gonna happen.

I will look at costs again for my barn renovation but will be surprised if it's significantly changed.


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## baldilocks

lynda s said:


> Thank you for that. Although in winter, it wouldn't work, would it?


There is usually sufficient light at these latitudes even in winter unless it is heavily overcast. However, at night...


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## canoeman

They work 12/7 even on a cloudy day, set up with battery storage so panel/s top up batteries you draw power when you need it, its balancing PV + storage for the equipment your using so just for your heating it would be C/H pump, pellet boiler, hopper feed motor, control unit


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## travelling-man

canoeman said:


> They work 12/7 even on a cloudy day, set up with battery storage so panel/s top up batteries you draw power when you need it, its balancing PV + storage for the equipment your using so just for your heating it would be C/H pump, pellet boiler, hopper feed motor, control unit


Any idea what sort of ballpark figure that would cost to run 14 radiators and maybe hot water in the winter etc?


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## canoeman

need details of power consumption of pumps etc for PV, diesel to biomass boiler conversion about 2,500€ we reckon about 40% more efficient than oil but running costs with my other half I don't even think about it just try to make it reasonable. Hoping that biomass will reduce our wood bill for 2013/4 which for this winter/spring is about 800€


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## baldilocks

canoeman said:


> need details of power consumption of pumps etc for PV, diesel to biomass boiler conversion about 2,500€ we reckon about 40% more efficient than oil but running costs with my other half I don't even think about it just try to make it reasonable. Hoping that biomass will reduce our wood bill for 2013/4 which for this winter/spring is about 800€


How about one that takes logs? We have just had 300kg delivered and taken down two floors to the store and stacked (very neatly, too, I might add) for €300 which, depending on the severity of the weather, will last us between 15 and 27 months.


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## canoeman

We have a wood fired back boiler as part of C/H/ H/W set up, the bio mass conversion unit is for the diesel boiler that is also part of set up, just lucky enough to have a O/H who likes a hot house as we have large m2 rooms and large sliding windows the system was never really designed correctly, underfloor would have been a far better solution for our property or another jumper


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## lynda s

I've been told that underfloor heating is expensive to run.


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## baldilocks

lynda s said:


> I've been told that underfloor heating is expensive to run.


it also 'draws' the feet. Ceiling heating is even more expensive!


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## canoeman

Not really depends on fuel source bottled gas in Portugal as you found forget it, but heatsource pump, biomass, diesel all economical, thinks its more learning how to use it efficiently as a stable background heat, once slab is warmed its cheaper to keep it a constant heat not operating it twice a day as is tendency with rads, maybe Robc will chip in


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## lynda s

baldilocks said:


> How about one that takes logs? We have just had 300kg delivered and taken down two floors to the store and stacked (very neatly, too, I might add) for &#128;300 which, depending on the severity of the weather, will last us between 15 and 27 months.


Our boiler can also take logs, but pellets are cleaner and more cost effective.


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## canoeman

lynda s said:


> Our boiler can also take logs, but pellets are cleaner and more cost effective.


Which boiler are you referring too never heard of a pellet fire being able to accept logs there designed to drip feed pellets into a small contained combustion chamber


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## lynda s

canoeman said:


> Which boiler are you referring too never heard of a pellet fire being able to accept logs there designed to drip feed pellets into a small contained combustion chamber


Yes it has the facility to burn logs. The small grate for the pellets is removed and a larger grate put in place, then the logs sit on top and burn from the fire below. Unless we had an unlimited cheap or free supply of logs we would never use this facility. 
The model we have is a thermoflux Pelling 30 kw wood pellet boiler with 300 litre water tank, and roof solar panel. It is made by thermoflux in Germany.
If you google thermoflux.com you will see the range of boilers.


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## travelling-man

Lynda

Looks like a very interesting site..... thanks & I've saved it for reference for our barn conversion.


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## canoeman

First boiler I've seen like this, always attractive to have alternative fuel but can't really see the benefit of being able to use wood as their generally in a secondary location and must be a nightmare to feed


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## baldilocks

lynda s said:


> Yes it has the facility to burn logs. The small grate for the pellets is removed and a larger grate put in place, then the logs sit on top and burn from the fire below. Unless we had an unlimited cheap or free supply of logs we would never use this facility.
> The model we have is a thermoflux Pelling 30 kw wood pellet boiler with 300 litre water tank, and roof solar panel. It is made by thermoflux in Germany.
> If you google thermoflux.com you will see the range of boilers.


I'm having a look at this as well - I like the idea of being able to burn logs. Does anybody know of people using the "wood gasification" type of boiler?

We get logs at €100 per tonne


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## lynda s

I agree, why bother, unless as I said there is an unlimited free source for logs. Even then it would be a lot more to clean out. I prefer the simplicity of no mess,no fuss. One press of a button, the pellets are automatically loaded, ignited, and hey presto very shortly after heat and hot water. Lovely.


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## travelling-man

Lynda

Do you know if they have agents in Portugal or is it a case of ordering & shipping from Germany?


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## canoeman

I take it a stage further a boiler of this sort isn't generally in a lounge but like yours in a garage ours in the basement, so how small would the wood need to be I doubt regular log size and how frequently would you need to feed? to me just negates the point of having a pellet stove/boiler of any type which is efficiency, running cost, ease of pellet storage, less ash etc, we'd replace our wood back boiler like a shot if we could find a suitable pellet stove but have just ordered the conversion unit for diesel boiler to be installed


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## lynda s

travelling-man said:


> Lynda
> 
> Do you know if they have agents in Portugal or is it a case of ordering & shipping from Germany?


We bought ours in Leria, in a kitchen/heating place. They also installed it all for us. I will look up the address etc for you and get back to you shortly. The owner is also an ex pat. 
Just found address, it is Elite Cozinhas Energias Lda, Tel 244 838 638 
If your Portuguese isn't great, ask for some can get back to you who does speak English. They are very helpful. We are Lynda and Aston.


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## travelling-man

Thanks Lynda.


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## lynda s

canoeman said:


> I take it a stage further a boiler of this sort isn't generally in a lounge but like yours in a garage ours in the basement, so how small would the wood need to be I doubt regular log size and how frequently would you need to feed? to me just negates the point of having a pellet stove/boiler of any type which is efficiency, running cost, ease of pellet storage, less ash etc, we'd replace our wood back boiler like a shot if we could find a suitable pellet stove but have just ordered the conversion unit for diesel boiler to be installed


We would have loved to have one in the living room, as they come in all shapes and sizes, but insuffient KW to heat the whole house really well,and hot water. We will at some point in the future add another solar panel and 600 litre water tank linked up to heat the pool as well.


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## travelling-man

Lynda

Can I ask the output of your pellet boiler & how many radiators it serves please?


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## lynda s

travelling-man said:


> Lynda
> 
> Can I ask the output of your pellet boiler & how many radiators it serves please?


I will look that the BTUs up for you and get back to you. It serves 12 radiators. Heats up from scratch really quickly. We are going back to Portugal on Saturday next, so if you want to visit to have a look at the system, you're very welcome.


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## travelling-man

Very kind of you Lynda and I may well take you up on that offer...... thanks. 

I'll need to heat something like 15 or 16 radiators in total so guess we'll need a fairly big system.


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## canoeman

You can get tech specs but you'll need to contact direct as link not working
Kotlovi na pelet

Check your existing diesel boiler KW cheaper to add a biomass conversion unit than replace providing it has some life left in it

Probably be better to add another 300ltr tank rather than replace with a 600 gives you a bit more flexibilty, we have a Solius inox tank that takes all 3 heat sources

Did you say Germany Lynda? its Croatia not that there's anything wrong with Croatia


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## travelling-man

Hmm...... I've just realised there appears to be two companies with the same name in two different countries........ don't know if they're connected or not.

Produkte

I've emailed both though! LOL


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## emerylloyd

Hello everyone. I have been following this post with interest. Sounds like some great projects here! I work in this field installing renewable energies back in England. I was wondering why there is no mention of air source heat pumps? Is electricity expensive compared to logs/pellets? 

I know you have the issue of having no heating during a power cut, but what other issues steer away from this product? Seems a great alternative if a full renovation is taking place, especially if you have the budget for solar thermal also. As mentioned though, all of these technologies come down to payback which is often fairly high unfortunately. 

Thanks, Lloyd


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## travelling-man

Emery

Welcome to the forum.

I'm not a moderator but as you work in the industry, it's probably best for you not to post links at this point at least but when you've made 5 posts you can then send PMs. 

I for one haven't even considered this option and to be honest, haven't even heard of it but a quick bit of Googling gives me the idea it might be worth consideration and I'll look into it further.

Thanks for the idea.


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## baldilocks

emerylloyd said:


> Hello everyone. I have been following this post with interest. Sounds like some great projects here! I work in this field installing renewable energies back in England. I was wondering why there is no mention of air source heat pumps? Is electricity expensive compared to logs/pellets?
> 
> I know you have the issue of having no heating during a power cut, but what other issues steer away from this product? Seems a great alternative if a full renovation is taking place, especially if you have the budget for solar thermal also. As mentioned though, all of these technologies come down to payback which is often fairly high unfortunately.
> 
> Thanks, Lloyd


I'm in Spain, but it is still the Iberian peninsula so we experience similar climatic needs, depending on where we are. For us it is out of the question since electricity is very expensive, almost to the point of even looking at PV


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## canoeman

Air source ideal here really, heat & cool, better for underfloor than radiators so needs to considered in a total renovation or new build, single phase electricity prices ok, 3 phase think it becomes questionable


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## lynda s

canoeman said:


> You can get tech specs but you'll need to contact direct as link not working
> Kotlovi na pelet
> 
> Check your existing diesel boiler KW cheaper to add a biomass conversion unit than replace providing it has some life left in it
> 
> Probably be better to add another 300ltr tank rather than replace with a 600 gives you a bit more flexibilty, we have a Solius inox tank that takes all 3 heat sources
> 
> Did you say Germany Lynda? its Croatia not that there's anything wrong with Croatia


Hi there, yes the unit is made in Croatia for the German company apparently.


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## lynda s

travelling-man said:


> Very kind of you Lynda and I may well take you up on that offer...... thanks.
> 
> I'll need to heat something like 15 or 16 radiators in total so guess we'll need a fairly big system.


Still don't know the output you asked about as all the literature is back in Portugal.. Like I said, we will be there from Saturday again, so will let you know. I do know it is capable of heating more radiators than we have.


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## lynda s

travelling-man said:


> Lynda
> 
> Can I ask the output of your pellet boiler & how many radiators it serves please?


When I said it serves 12 rads, I should have said that is the amount we have.


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## emerylloyd

Hi, sorry guys it wasn't in the respect of a sales person. Just wanted to join in really, but I can see where you're coming from. Thanks for heads up.


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## southsussex

I've had an air source heat pump fitted with underfloor heating and a similar thing put on my roof for hot water.

The water seems briliant, piping hot in February (when we was last over) and apparently ridiculously cheap to run (we will see!). The underfloor heating has had some teething problems and we are still trying to get that sorted out with the company that fitted it, but where it did work properly it was nice and toasty! A heating engineer friend of mine in the UK said that air source heat pumps were a great product and relatively cheap to run.

If I had my time again I'm not sure if I would have had it done. It was very expensive to instal but we wanted to keep our outgoings low when we finally move in and not have to rely on storing wood/pellets, stoking and cleaning as we got older. I think I would now opt for a log/pellet burner to run the heating as long as I was able to easily source and store the wood/pellets.


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## travelling-man

Emery

quite honestly, I reckon your knowledge could be invaluable and when you get 5 posts up you can send & receive PMs and I'll then message you to ask your advice on my requirements and perhaps you can advise me on what sort of size system I'll need?


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## emerylloyd

travelling-man said:


> Emery
> 
> quite honestly, I reckon your knowledge could be invaluable and when you get 5 posts up you can send & receive PMs and I'll then message you to ask your advice on my requirements and perhaps you can advise me on what sort of size system I'll need?


That's fine, thanks. Yes thats no problem, keeps my mind ticking while I'm here!


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## BlackBeardie

Hi,
It's photo voltaic. PV is used for generating electricity (to provide lighting , power for pumps etc) as opposed to the solar thermal panels for hot water which simply absorb the heat and transfer the solar energy directly to a fluid. You can use both type of solar technologies (and panels) to gain energy independence  . Solar thermal panels with a well installed solar hot water system give you more bang for your bucks at the moment in places where you have a lot of sunshine throughout the year. PV technology is still expensive to install but the technology is improving all the time.


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## lynda s

BlackBeardie said:


> Hi,
> It's photo voltaic. PV is used for generating electricity (to provide lighting , power for pumps etc) as opposed to the solar thermal panels for hot water which simply absorb the heat and transfer the solar energy directly to a fluid. You can use both type of solar technologies (and panels) to gain energy independence  . Solar thermal panels with a well installed solar hot water system give you more bang for your bucks at the moment in places where you have a lot of sunshine throughout the year. PV technology is still expensive to install but the technology is improving all the time.


Hi there, we love the system. The water has been piping hot all summer, even on days when sun isn't blazing. In winter the pellet boiler was terrific. Hot water and central heating. Lovely system all round.


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## BlackBeardie

Yes, thank you fro all the info. about your pellet system. I just have experience with multifuel burners here in the UK. I will definitely get a wood burner to start with. Hopefully they make some in Portugal. It's great you know about the success you are having with your pellet burner and the convenience it affords you.
Thank you.


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## lynda s

BlackBeardie said:


> Yes, thank you fro all the info. about your pellet system. I just have experience with multifuel burners here in the UK. I will definitely get a wood burner to start with. Hopefully they make some in Portugal. It's great you know about the success you are having with your pellet burner and the convenience it affords you. Thank you.


It is clean, quiet, and easy to use. Very economical too. If you want to see it in use let me know. We're still not full time in Portugal, as I've had a health problem, but in a few months will be permanently resident.


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## BlackBeardie

Hi! Thank you! You are very kind to offer. I'm not yet in Portugal either. I'm still in the planning stages. ) I'm sorry to hear that you are unwell. I hope you will get better soon.


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## lynda s

You're welcome, and thanks. Which area will you be moving to? We will be on the Silver Coast, Porto do Mos. Very beautiful. Good luck with your move too.


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## BlackBeardie

lynda s said:


> You're welcome, and thanks. Which area will you be moving to? We will be on the Silver Coast, Porto do Mos. Very beautiful. Good luck with your move too.


I see, Lynda. I've never been north of Lisbon. I'll have to come visit.  You'll find me in the Algarve. I know it quite arid but I'm going to plant a few trees. I hope they'll grow. Someone told me Eycalptus trees grow rapidly in the north. Apparently this is a contributing factor to forest fires up there. Because they burn very well. I'm still trying to find out which type of trees grow well in the drier climate down south.


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## canoeman

Eucalyptus grow well everywhere in Portugal, planted originally as a cash crop but long term a disaster for the environment, plenty of native trees or other species will grow in Algarve it's the nurturing in the initial stages thats important and even Algarve has different regions that suit different species
Tree and a crop Carob


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## lynda s

BlackBeardie said:


> I see, Lynda. I've never been north of Lisbon. I'll have to come visit.  You'll find me in the Algarve. I know it quite arid but I'm going to plant a few trees. I hope they'll grow. Someone told me Eycalptus trees grow rapidly in the north. Apparently this is a contributing factor to forest fires up there. Because they burn very well. I'm still trying to find out which type of trees grow well in the drier climate down south.


You're welcome to visit. I like the Algarve but it's a lot more expensive we've found. Espresso is 80 cents and beer also 80 cents, in our neck of the woods. We love Alvor, and round the west coast. We travelled down to the Algarve in June for a week. Stayed in Quinta do Lago and had a great time. The drive took 3 hours and most of that was motor way. Fabulous journey. 
About the Eucalyptus trees. They have been a curse in Portugal, they take all the moisture from the ground, and anything else planted nearby dies off. Don't plant them please.


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## BlackBeardie

Hi Lynda, Hope you are well! Yes, I'd like to come check out your neck of the woods sometime.  Yes, I read the bad press about Eucalptus trees in Portugal. I will give them a miss. I am keen to plant a few pinheiro manso (branched/umbrella pine) for their aesthetic qualities. Apparently the pine cones from them burn very well and the seeds are edible. I'm germinating some apple trees from seed here in England. If the apples are no good in 5 years they will make good firewood. )


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## lynda s

Hi there, just wondering about the apple trees you are germinating. They won't bear fruit unless grafted with another tree as far as I know. We have orange, lemon and peach trees (1 of each) growing. Last winter was very wet and cold, and some plants became waterlogged. Very difficult when not there to tend. 
You will be very welcome to visit, just keep in touch. When are you next in Portugal? We hope to go towards end of October for a few weeks. Depends what my consultant says.


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## baldilocks

BlackBeardie said:


> Hi Lynda, Hope you are well! Yes, I'd like to come check out your neck of the woods sometime.  Yes, I read the bad press about Eucalptus trees in Portugal. I will give them a miss. I am keen to plant a few pinheiro manso (branched/umbrella pine) for their aesthetic qualities. Apparently the pine cones from them burn very well and the seeds are edible. I'm germinating some apple trees from seed here in England. If the apples are no good in 5 years they will make good firewood. )


Please be aware that the pine processional caterpillars are very common on the Iberian Peninsula and not only do they progressively eat the the foliage until the trees die, they are also very dangerous to pets (especially dogs) and humans. There is a thread on the Portuguese forum that includes them:
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/po...erpillars-leishmanosis-other-pet-nasties.html


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## canoeman

In the spring at nearly every market in Portugal you can buy a wide variety of bare rooted fruit trees, apples. pears, almonds, peach, cherries, mango, advogado with varieties of each, the list just goes on and on, sellers will generally stock trees suitable for the area you're in and at about 3.50€ it's really pointless growing from seed, bare root stock takes well at as there at least 4-5 years old give you a head start on some fruit.

From seed if you're lucky 7-10 years before you have any idea if you're going to get any fruit and if it's any good, buy a variety you like and will be successful in the Algarve which unless your in the Monchique hills is unlilky coastal plains too hot

Just as an aside there is an extensive list of plants that should not be brought into Portugal that was major news a couple of years ago, although I've not heard of it being enforced


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## BlackBeardie

canoeman said:


> In the spring at nearly every market in Portugal you can buy a wide variety of bare rooted fruit trees, apples. pears, almonds, peach, cherries, mango, advogado with varieties of each, the list just goes on and on, sellers will generally stock trees suitable for the area you're in and at about 3.50€ it's really pointless growing from seed, bare root stock takes well at as there at least 4-5 years old give you a head start on some fruit.
> 
> From seed if you're lucky 7-10 years before you have any idea if you're going to get any fruit and if it's any good, buy a variety you like and will be successful in the Algarve which unless your in the Monchique hills is unlilky coastal plains too hot
> 
> Just as an aside there is an extensive list of plants that should not be brought into Portugal that was major news a couple of years ago, although I've not heard of it being enforced


Hi canoeman, 
That's good to hear about being able to buy suitable local varieties of local bare rooted fruit trees in March/April. Thanks for the heads up about the coastal temperature. Yes, it the quite an arid environment. One of my plans is to grow some shading trees and grow the more delicate fruiting varieties in between. I guess I have to keep my fingers crossed and see how it all pans out.


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## canoeman

Also on your water supply, well or bore hole ok, mains water then you're probably in for a hefty water bill, you can check costs by going to the Camara site your property is in or you're buying in, water is sold by m3 in 4 bands, as you move into each band price rises dramatically, theres also a fixed charge for waste water so if you consume say 24m3 in total you pay in my case .38c per m3 but my water is cheap compared to other Camaras


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## BlackBeardie

lynda s said:


> Hi there, just wondering about the apple trees you are germinating. They won't bear fruit unless grafted with another tree as far as I know. We have orange, lemon and peach trees (1 of each) growing. Last winter was very wet and cold, and some plants became waterlogged. Very difficult when not there to tend.
> You will be very welcome to visit, just keep in touch. When are you next in Portugal? We hope to go towards end of October for a few weeks. Depends what my consultant says.


Hi Lynda,

I seeds are from a self pollinating variety. The apples I got this year from it were good eating. The tree in on a grafted root stock. I suspect the actual apple tree is closer to the original self pollinating crab apple so I am optimistically hopeful. 

RE: Portugal, it all depends. If everything begins to fall into place, I will have to go over pretty soon.


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## canoeman

The grafted rootstock is to supply the "fruit tree" with certain benefits to grow as a dwarf or disease resistance etc for Algarve MM.111 might be good as it's quite drought tolerant, the grafted tree itself is so you get a true type of apple or any species you want rather than the guessing game of growing from seeds


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