# Do you think Spain or France is more developed?



## anywherebuthere (Jul 14, 2011)

I grew up in America. I wanted to travel to Europe to experience a different culture, but not the UK since it's really similar to here.

I chose Paris because I thought it would be the most similar so it wouldn't be hard to transition. I was surprised at how different it was nonetheless. I really like the food and culture. There is lots of history abound. However, I actually don't live in Paris, but a suburb, so I can't really compare I guess. But my apartment is always malfunctioning, and the management is really lazy. The school schedules keep changing every week, making it hard to concentrate and plan ahead.

Also, in Paris, I feel like everything's not being fixed enough and that things don't run smoothly enough. It's also not that sanitary.

I went to Barcelona and it seemed more advanced than Paris technologically. Everything was cleaner and ran smoothly. Yet everyone says that Spain has it worse, though I don't see that I guess. What's going on?


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Yes, you're right, sadly the UK has allowed American culture to seep right in. Apart from the guns.

Travel south from Barcelona and you'll see. Spain is certainly more shabby and whatever service you've experienced in France, I don't think you'll find it much better in many parts of Spain.

It's the same in Italy. Go to Rome then go to Napoli. You'd think you were in different countries.


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## anywherebuthere (Jul 14, 2011)

Ok, I see. Why is Barcelona so well off then?

Also, I visited Rome, and it was like Paris in terms of efficiency. I haven't visited Naples, but might look into it.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Naples is chaotic. It's a great experience.

I used to work for a global company and the various country HQs would take turns in hosting the management team's get together. We'd been in Frankfurt and then it was the turn of the Spanish. The HQ was in Madrid but the top man in Spain decided on Malaga so that we could take a look at the very successful office there.

I remember turning off the N332 and thinking, oh my, the Americans are going to think they're in the third.

That said, the big jefe from Madrid turned out to be the best host of our world tour. Everybody loved it.

I remember having to take the co-ordinator to one side (wonderful American friend of mine), to explain that although everybody was happy to get out of bed at 6:30 in Frankfurt, it probably wouldn't be a good idea in Spain. I also suggested he move dinner back from 19:00 to 21:30, as otherwise we wouldn't be in a very good restaurant.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Difficult question to answer, I haven't been to France since 1965, La Rochelle, and the part of Spain I live in, Canary Isles, is completely different in location, culture, and climate to the European part, almost a thousand miles to our north.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

As you've been living in France you might want to take a look at his. I enjoyed it:

Sixty Million Frenchmen Can't Be Wrong: Why We Love France but Not the French: Jean-Benoit Nadeau, Julie Barlow: 9781402200458: Amazon.com: Books


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

As for why Barcelona is richer, I think it was a bit of vision. They hosted the Olympics and that is the moment that many think Barcelona started on the path to the great city it is today.

The people there like to think they're the most industrious people in the country (and think the rest are tail-riding loafers, hence the need to break away... but then I am very anti-separatism so I don't want to go any further down that road!), and who I am to argue. Happy to take their word for it.

It also happens to be just about the most beautiful in the country and is blessed with many wonderful sights, although I love Seville just a tad more than Barcelona.



anywherebuthere said:


> Ok, I see. Why is Barcelona so well off then?
> 
> Also, I visited Rome, and it was like Paris in terms of efficiency. I haven't visited Naples, but might look into it.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Well I would prefer Spain.

I am not a big fan of the French and personally will never forgive Pearl Harbour


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Rabbitcat said:


> Well I would prefer Spain.
> 
> I am not a big fan of the French and personally will never forgive Pearl Harbour


I think of how the French locals offered accommodation to the families of those affected by the air tragedy last week, giving bed, board and food to those visiting the site.

I prefer to let historic events go so that we can all move on.

It's better that way, then I don't have to worry about the Armada when having dinner with our Spanish friends, in Spain.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Never sir, remember Agincourt


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## Roy C (Sep 29, 2012)

France Pearl Harbour?


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Rabbitcat said:


> Never sir, remember Agincourt


No, I wasn't there, ummm, sir.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

I know its wrong/ dangerous to stereotype entire nations like some fruitcake Ukiper so its best to go on ones own experiences. 

Unfortunately I have been around 6 times to France and on every occasion found a mixture of attitudes from surly to rude esp when they realise you speak English.

Each to their own but La France does not do it for me


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Rabbitcat said:


> I know its wrong/ dangerous to stereotype entire nations like some fruitcake Ukiper so its best to go on ones own experiences.
> 
> Unfortunately I have been around 6 times to France and on every occasion found a mixture of attitudes from surly to rude esp when they realise you speak English.
> 
> Each to their own but La France does not do it for me


Fair enough, but what's that got to do with Agincourt and Pearl Harbour (especially Pearl Harbour)?


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

France is more developed in the sense that it is still a global power and has a much more diverse and mature economy. You won't see Rajoy being invited to intense discussions with Merkel on the future of the euro, and Spain isn't part of the G7. In France the wealth is spread much more evenly around the country, and so are the business centres. Whereas in Spain all the business is really concentrated in a couple of cities, so they don't quite reflect the wealth of the nation as a whole. Also Spain went through a huge construction boom prior to the crisis and money was spent building new roads, airports, metro systems, high speed rail, etc. So these tend to look shiny and new compared to cities like Paris that built a lot of this stuff over a century ago.


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## ccm47 (Oct 15, 2013)

I'm another one on the side of France. The French have an immense pride, overall, in towns and villages. They want everybody who visits to appreciate the history and what is available, be that beautiful scenery, architecture or food.

The mayors in France are not just there to run civic functions but to ensure that people living there are included in the town, village opportunities. Known vandals often get an avuncular visit from the mayor too, before and after the police are involved. Mayoral corruption is not and has not been rife. To my mind a developed society should not have corruption deeply embedded.

In addition when in Spain I spend some time either horse riding or driving round the villages off the beaten track. Naturally tomatoes and almonds are laid out to dry in the sun , but washing routinely hanging over the fences? You definitely won't find that in modern France.


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## Helenameva (Aug 15, 2014)

ccm47 said:


> I'm another one on the side of France. The French have an immense pride, overall, in towns and villages. They want everybody who visits to appreciate the history and what is available, be that beautiful scenery, architecture or food.
> 
> The mayors in France are not just there to run civic functions but to ensure that people living there are included in the town, village opportunities. Known vandals often get an avuncular visit from the mayor too, before and after the police are involved. Mayoral corruption is not and has not been rife. To my mind a developed society should not have corruption deeply embedded.
> 
> In addition when in Spain I spend some time either horse riding or driving round the villages off the beaten track. Naturally tomatoes and almonds are laid out to dry in the sun , but washing routinely hanging over the fences? You definitely won't find that in modern France.


I've never heard the 'Where do they hang their washing?' Test used as criteria to decide on a country's level of development before  It made me lol


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## PS51 (Sep 7, 2014)

UK too similar to USA ? Maybe you should have a look at Accrington !


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## maxd (Mar 22, 2009)

To the op, although off topic.Getting a taxi from Manhattan to fjk I thought I was almost in a 3rd world country. The state of the bridges and highways were really bad with pot holes and crumbling curbs and pillars.


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## Calas felices (Nov 29, 2007)

One difference is that everything that France has built/generated/produced has been from it's own devices. It is one of the biggest contributors to the EU budget. Anything that Spain has constructed/generated/etc has been subsidised from the EU budget as Spain has been one of the biggest recipient of funds.


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## PS51 (Sep 7, 2014)

maxd said:


> To the op, although off topic.Getting a taxi from Manhattan to fjk I thought I was almost in a 3rd world country. The state of the bridges and highways were really bad with pot holes and crumbling curbs and pillars.



Maybe I was wrong then. Perhaps Accrington wouldnt be much of a change in scenery.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Thanks to all for brightening my morning - haven't laughed so much for ages. The dogs started barking at my reaction to the Pearl Harbour bit.

To the OP - it depends upon what you mean by developed but I would guess that by most measures you would say that France is the more advanced of the two. 

BTW Paris and Barcelona aren't typical of either country - you'll find things a lot different in the provinces and rural areas.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Horlics said:


> Yes, you're right, sadly the UK has allowed American culture to seep right in. Apart from the guns.
> ...


Strangely I felt far more alien and foreign in the US than in either Spain or France - mind you that's not being very fair as I have travelled extensively in France and lived for many years in Spain whereas my experience of America was two weeks working in Los Angeles. I'm afraid I didn't like it one bit.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

jimenato said:


> Thanks to all for brightening my morning - haven't laughed so much for ages. The dogs started barking at my reaction to the Pearl Harbour bit.
> 
> To the OP - it depends upon what you mean by developed but I would guess that by most measures you would say that France is the more advanced of the two.
> 
> BTW Paris and Barcelona aren't typical of either country - you'll find things a lot different in the provinces and rural areas.


I've been trying to compose an acceptable post of what is meant by "developed" and haven't been able to 

Fully agree that Barcelona is not typical of Spain, but then again what is? Maybe I should just say that it's different to Madrid and Bilbao.

If by developed you mean efficient, well run amenities and if you're looking for rhyme and reason behind authorities decisions then Spain's not the place.
However, if you're looking for a more "developed" attitude to life then I think Spain has its moments.
What do you think Jimemato?


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Spain suffered from 'arrested development' due to living under a fascist dictatorship for forty years. EU money helped it catch up with the rest of Europe in terms of infrastructure, but the old inefficient systems and corrupt practices still linger.

In my limited experience I have found the Spanish to be much more open and friendly than the French (with the exception of Brittany). The first time I ever visited Spain, on a road trip with friends, we noticed the difference as soon as we crossed the Pyrenees.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

jimenato said:


> Strangely I felt far more alien and foreign in the US than in either Spain or France - mind you that's not being very fair as I have travelled extensively in France and lived for many years in Spain whereas my experience of America was two weeks working in Los Angeles. I'm afraid I didn't like it one bit.


Ah, you should have gone to Boston! Far more civilised. Almost European, in fact.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

I'm guessing the OP limited his experience of Barcelona to the 'nicer' parts of the city as Barcelona like all cities has some appallingly run-down areas.
Ditto Naples, Berlin, Paris, Madrid, London, New York...
I think comparing two countries like Spain and France to determine which is 'better' or 'more developed' is a futile exercise. By what possible yardstick could you judge? Length of motorway in each country in terms of km? Or state of repair? Or speed of trains? Or state and availability of public loos?
It all depends on the standards, tastes and judgments of the individual.


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## PS51 (Sep 7, 2014)

As you say MRYPG9, It depends on what you value. I'd probably use obscure measures of judgement. . . . How does each country care for the Elderly and Handicapped and Mentally ill. 
If you were to fall down in the middle of town , would people quite naturally come to your aid.You could probably kiss goodbye to that one in canary Wharf.
How many Range Rovers per capita wouldnt be a measure of advancement for me. 
Pete


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Alcalaina said:


> Spain suffered from 'arrested development' due to living under a fascist dictatorship for forty years. EU money helped it catch up with the rest of Europe in terms of infrastructure, but the old inefficient systems and corrupt practices still linger.
> 
> In my limited experience I have found the Spanish to be much more open and friendly than the French (*with the exception of Brittany*). The first time I ever visited Spain, on a road trip with friends, we noticed the difference as soon as we crossed the Pyrenees.


That's because the Bretons like a good beer instead of spending all day posing in front of an expensive cocktail that they barely touch


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Chopera said:


> That's because the Bretons like a good beer instead of spending all day posing in front of an expensive cocktail that they barely touch


They certainly do. And cider. And calvados ....:music:

I once spent a summer with a friend busking in Lorient, and we were invited by a local family to pitch our tent on their smallholding rather than stay in the campsite. They were completely self-sufficient and shared everything with us, including their home-distilled spirits. They took us to a_ fest noz_, a sort of Breton village fete with booze and bagpipes. I would have loved to live there, but somehow ended up in Andalucia (which isn't that different really, except the weather's better)!


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## laroche (Apr 11, 2015)

0. Spain suffered from the crisis & there is still 20% unemployed people here. It is not nice too see or to hear. I don't like to see the misery that i am witnessing here in Spain. I worked here 10 years ago and i have seen the income of people went down the pipe. People have now 2 or 3 jobs. Each time you talk to a spaniard, there is someone who is in dire straits in his or her family. French people are very arrogant but hopefully you don't see that much misery in France. 

Here are some down-to-earth things that i have witnessed: 

1. In France, it is easy to get a SIM,a micro SIM, a nano SIM and put it inside your Ipad, a 4G routeur and get good internet bandwidth for few bucks without a pricey contract. I think it is bouygues telecom that offers this kind of stuff. in Spain, you need a contract for everything and it is annoying. Also, the internet can be really slow. In France, with 4G i could get 1 megabyte out of 4G at La rochelle some month ago. There is also the free internet from Free & orange routers & Mc donald's and it is always working pretty well. 

2. In France, there are so many good supermarkets. You don't need to think about where you go because it is going to be quality. The quality of food in spain isn't as good as in France. 

3. Price difference isn't that high between France and Spain. If we talk means of transport the spanish TGV is cheaper than spanish AVE. from person coming from USA, it is not possible to criticize our public means of transport because there is nothing in USA that can equal 

4. Then, for sure, in France, there are lots of sovietic companies like La poste, Orange... In Fact, it is all about trying to do your way out of it. In France i always ask to deliver at a "point relais" (grocery shop...)

5. Spanish cities are dusty and don't look good. 

6. Barcelona is home of the scammers and premium escort girls. it is also the most expensive city in Spain. It is most expensive than south of France. In Barcelona, you don't meet spanish people but only foreigners. It is just a tourist traps to me. Personally, i hate Barcelona, and i think the best city in Spain is Sevilla for all possible reasons. 

7. i'd like to mention i am french. I do think that in Europe, the cosiest place it is UK but everything is so pricey so that if you don't big money there is not that much that you can enjoy except the pubs.

8. 10 years ago, in Spain, there were still the fiesta mood. now in the night people do binge drinking to forget their situation so that the actual government created very tight policies targeting night offenders. 

I think the fiesta mood is gone in Spain.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Each to their own and rather than generalising one can only go by ones own experiences. 

Unfortunately for my wife and I we have found many French to be rude, unfriendly and quite arrogant especially when they discover you struggle with the language.

Our experiences of this have been in dealing with restaurant staff, railway ticket offices etc

Obviously there's good bad and indifferent in every country so I can only relay my own firsthand experiences, but these small incidents on a repeated basis can colour your entire view of a country

France definitely not for me


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## Bellthorpe (Jun 23, 2013)

Rabbitcat said:


> Each to their own and rather than generalising one can only go by ones own experiences. Unfortunately for my wife and I we have found many French to be rude, unfriendly and quite arrogant especially when they discover you struggle with the language. Our experiences of this have been in dealing with restaurant staff, railway ticket offices etc Obviously there's good bad and indifferent in every country so I can only relay my own firsthand experiences, but these small incidents on a repeated basis can colour your entire view of a country France definitely not for me


As you say, one's own experiences count. I'm hard-pressed to recall an interaction with a French person such as you've described.

But I've sometimes observed it. Usually it's a reaction to a rude, arrogant foreigner.

I make no inference of course.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Lol

That's what it must be!!!


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Not experienced it either in France, then again I married a French lady. Parisians seem a bit off though but then again you have always heard similar about New Yorkers too so it's likely a big city thing. 

In thinking about it I can't imagine most people no matter where they are from to have any reason to react offensively to somebody for not being able to speak their language well.
Whenever somebody has tried to speak English to me but can't I don't just turn around and say stupid Johnny Foreigner and take it as a personal slight, you try and help as best you can and smile a lot, at worst everyone is confused not offended.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Exactly Pazcat that's how it should be.

I remember in Ville France railway station trying my best in poor French to buy a ticket.
As I reached the kiosk the ticket seller was all smiles and Bonjour etc.

As soon as I spoke she just rudely looked over my shoulder and proceeded to serve the French customer behind me.

I stood aside and waited as my French is bad and as there were no more customers tried again.

She was now just so rude arrogant etc that it was embarrassing

Visited around 30 countries around the globe and all my 5 top crappy experiences were with the French


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

laroche said:


> 0. Spain suffered from the crisis & there is still 20% unemployed people here. It is not nice too see or to hear. I don't like to see the misery that i am witnessing here in Spain. I worked here 10 years ago and i have seen the income of people went down the pipe. People have now 2 or 3 jobs. Each time you talk to a spaniard, there is someone who is in dire straits in his or her family. French people are very arrogant but hopefully you don't see that much misery in France.
> 
> This is true, but regional differences are important and also according to age, for example in Andalucia where the vast majority of people on the forum seem to want to settle unemployment is at 34% , and 59% for under 25's!!
> 
> ...


+++

BTW amazing demonstration yesterday in Madrid againt the above mentioned law. The first ever hologram demonstration. Holograms of demonstrators were shown on a screen in front of the Courts, one of the places where demonstrations will be sanctioned in the future. The law comes in in June. Video here
http://www.20minutos.es/noticia/2429046/0/manifestacion-hologramas/protesta-congreso/ley-mordaza/


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## Tigerlillie (Apr 7, 2015)

Laroche, I have to disagree with you on some of the points you have made and I lived there for 10yrs so I do know a bit of what I'm on about.

Spain suffered from the crisis & there is still 20% unemployed people here. It is not nice too see or to hear. I don't like to see the misery that i am witnessing here in Spain. I worked here 10 years ago and i have seen the income of people went down the pipe. People have now 2 or 3 jobs. Each time you talk to a spaniard, there is someone who is in dire straits in his or her family. French people are very arrogant but hopefully you don't see that much misery in France.

There is plenty of misery in France and in fact it has the highest suicide rate for the under 25's in the whole of Europe. And people here also have 2 or 3 jobs to make ends meet.

Here are some down-to-earth things that i have witnessed: 

1. In France, it is easy to get a SIM,a micro SIM, a nano SIM and put it inside your Ipad, a 4G routeur and get good internet bandwidth for few bucks without a pricey contract. I think it is bouygues telecom that offers this kind of stuff. in Spain, you need a contract for everything and it is annoying. Also, the internet can be really slow. In France, with 4G i could get 1 megabyte out of 4G at La rochelle some month ago. There is also the free internet from Free & orange routers & Mc donald's and it is always working pretty well. 

Again this is rubbish, I lived in rural Brittany for 6yrs and was lucky to get 1.5-2mbps on a good day and is also on a par with Spain price wise for a contract.

2. In France, there are so many good supermarkets. You don't need to think about where you go because it is going to be quality. The quality of food in spain isn't as good as in France. 

Again not true, the state of 'fresh' fruit and veg on display in supermarkets sometimes makes you wonder how many months it's been sat there...I kid you not!! And trying to find anything exotic like indian or chinese spices is a complete no no outside large CITIES. The French think that their cuisine and only theirs is far and away the best in the world without even knowing what anything else tastes like.

3. Price difference isn't that high between France and Spain. If we talk means of transport the spanish TGV is cheaper than spanish AVE. from person coming from USA, it is not possible to criticize our public means of transport because there is nothing in USA that can equal 

Can't really comment on this, although, what I can say (and I'm only talking about Brittany) Public Transport is practically non existent.

Don't get me wrong I love France and the French people but please take off your rose tinted spectacles. Most French and more specifically Bretons are not rude or arrogant, that is generally left to the Parisians and most french people don't like them either.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

I think sweeping generalisations are pointless. Its personal experience that ( should) colours ones judgement. 

I have just personally come across more rudeness, arrogance ( esp to a Foreigners) and bad manners in France than anywhere else


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## andoba (Jan 12, 2014)

I never understand how people moves to small, tourist towns in Andalucía and Murcia and expects broadband fiber connections and good 3G and LTE coverage. In any major city like Madrid, Barcelona, Valencia, Bilbao, etc, and their metropolitan areas you can get 50, 100, 200 or 500 Mb/s fiber connections and since a year or two ago LTE coverage for 25 Mb/s links is almost everywhere with more than 1 million inhabitants. If I was going to move to UK and I needed a good, stable internet connection I wouldn't be moving to a small town in Wales that lives out of cattling!


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Year 2000

We spent 2 months travelling down through the French canal/river system. All the French we came across were courteous, friendly and simply couldn't have been more helpful. When we crossed the (sea) border into Spain I was very much taken aback by the attitude of the Spanish people we came across - a complete contrast. They appeared rude, uncaring and unhelpful.

Year (approx) 2010

Driving back to the UK across France - couldn't wait to get back into Spain. It wasn't that the French were rude particularly but things were far more difficult and I craved the familiarity (and opening hours!) of Spain.

In 2000 I could speak and understand French to a reasonable level and had no Spanish, in 2010 I had reasonable Spanish but had lost my French. I suspect that that significantly influenced my impressions of the people I had to communicate with and theirs of me.


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