# Worried: should I do it?



## Serious_Dad (Mar 21, 2017)

There is about a week left before Brexit when the sky comes crashing down on anyone not in the country they would like to be in. I work on the internet and my wife looks after our baby, so we could live in many places with a manageable cost of living. However we have a daughter who is 3, will be 4 in May.

We have done our best to pick a place - it pretty much came down to Northern Italy vs Catalonia. It's not based on finding the optimum dolce vita. I think you can't go somewhere and either expect to assimilate quickly OR to change anything much. Therefore you have to be comfortable with the distance between you and the normal way of thinking there, and this is important in deciding where you can go. Anyway my daughter will grow up where we live, so it's not like for an adult that does not care what other people might do or think. 
I like the most, that Italians have the gattaro whereas the French just sling poison, and in Spain they rely on the expats (where there are any) to attend to the stray cats, secret poison otherwise, so it is said. I also read that vegetarianism is more known in Italy than in Spain, and I used to be fully vegetarian so I am quite conscious of whether there is any sentimentality about animals in the society. My wife likes that Italy has more at-home mums and family involvement (not that we can bring our extended family) compared to some other countries. Finally, I didn't feel okay to send my child into the Spanish state school system, especially given that has no school performance data, whereas Italy has eduscopio - and while terribly underresourced, the schools do comparably well overall to the UK (and private schools are much fewer). This makes Italy attractive for us, we can't afford high-end school catchments in the UK.

I am aware there are many downsides with the taxes etc, the strangely high % caesarian, and that some Italians are leaving Italy for work. But for us the biggest problem is not those things. 

It is that we have not studied Italian (minor oversight?), and while we ourselves could get on like tourists for a year or two while learning the language, our daughter cannot do without friends. Our main problem is whether she will be able to find any English-speaking friends her own age, given that most kids will only speak Italian and will be at scuola materna full-time while she will not. 

The place I picked to investigate was Lucca, because I am from Abingdon which is twinned with Lucca, and I like that it's a small town, quite like to be near the coast, and that there's some technology stuff going on. 
I am aware there are more expats around Firenze, and we do need some expat community to get us going, but I am also aware that the mafia have started polluting the land around Firenze, and I do not know how to fight those kinds of problems. My great-grandmother was from Napoli, I'm sure she had her reasons why she left for England also.
(Also eduscopio seems to rate some liceo scientifico near Monte Carlo as better than most liceo sci near Florence.)

I have been in contact with the bilingual school in Lucca and I certainly could send her there, to keep developing her English. (Anyone have any experience of the school?) However, my wife won't part with her right away. She would in her ideal world just keep her at home until 16, she isn't going to see her go to full-time school at 3. 

So my question and my thoughts are this. Are there any expats with young kids in that region, or in another place that I ought to consider? 
Am I right or wrong in my comparisons above?

My wife is fair and should avoid hotter climates; I can't deal with cold. 
I've promised my child to try to get her to live near warm paddling water, and to try to get her to the lemon-growing band, so I've got to do my best even if it's the last minute.

Thanks.


Rick


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

Can't help you much with the specifics about Italy, but let me toss out a couple ideas on the overall idea of expatriation:

Brexit doesn't really mark an end to the possibilities. There are plenty of non-EU expats in Italy and elsewhere around Europe. Yes, it may make the requirements a bit tougher to meet, but not overwhelmingly so. In any event, even if you move as an EU national, making your living "on the Internet" can be a real can of worms. Most EU countries (Italy included) do have strict registration requirements for those who work "independently." At a minimum, you'll probably have to register your activity so that you are paying the relevant taxes (income and VAT) and social insurances.

Not speaking the language is a bigger problem for you and your wife than for your kids. At 4 years, she is probably going to pick up the language pretty quickly as long as she has contact with local kids - whether through school or elsewhere. As far as taxes, insurance, banking and other "grown up" stuff goes, there is little or nothing available in translation and, even though I had years of French in school, on arrival in France I struggled with the bureaucratic forms and instructions to start a business and keep up with taxes and such.

To adapt an old proverb: Expatriate in haste, repent at leisure. Don't be in too much of a hurry to move to a foreign country simply because of Brexit. There are lots of other considerations and preparations to be made first. In fact, some of the visa considerations can actually be a handy "check-list" to determine if you're really ready to make that big move.
Cheers,
Bev


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## KenzoXIV (Nov 13, 2013)

Serious_Dad said:


> There is about a week left before Brexit when the sky comes crashing down on anyone not in the country they would like to be in. I work on the internet and my wife looks after our baby, so we could live in many places with a manageable cost of living. However we have a daughter who is 3, will be 4 in May.
> 
> We have done our best to pick a place - it pretty much came down to Northern Italy vs Catalonia. It's not based on finding the optimum dolce vita. I think you can't go somewhere and either expect to assimilate quickly OR to change anything much. Therefore you have to be comfortable with the distance between you and the normal way of thinking there, and this is important in deciding where you can go. Anyway my daughter will grow up where we live, so it's not like for an adult that does not care what other people might do or think.
> I like the most, that Italians have the gattaro whereas the French just sling poison, and in Spain they rely on the expats (where there are any) to attend to the stray cats, secret poison otherwise, so it is said. I also read that vegetarianism is more known in Italy than in Spain, and I used to be fully vegetarian so I am quite conscious of whether there is any sentimentality about animals in the society. My wife likes that Italy has more at-home mums and family involvement (not that we can bring our extended family) compared to some other countries. Finally, I didn't feel okay to send my child into the Spanish state school system, especially given that has no school performance data, whereas Italy has eduscopio - and while terribly underresourced, the schools do comparably well overall to the UK (and private schools are much fewer). This makes Italy attractive for us, we can't afford high-end school catchments in the UK.
> ...


Hi Rick,

If being an expat was a boat we would be in the same one so I can offer you some advice.

I too work on the Internet. I made a very simple decision.. I got an accountant. It costs bit however it will remove the complexity of your first year. To be honest mine has saved me more than what he cost which I kind of guess is the point! The accountant should fill out all the paperwork for you and get you signed up where you need to be.

The problem with statistics is that they are a generalisation. For example "This school was ranked 2 in the top 10 of the local area by 90% of people surveyed." A fantastically marketed statement but the reality is that 10% thought it was rubbish! There could be 100 reasons why that 10% thought it was rubbish but usually its because there is some kind of 'difference' that couldnt be catered for such as the student couldnt speak Italian. This would directly affect you causing your child to fall in that 10% rather than enjoy the 90%.

The essence of what I am saying is DO NOT MOVE BASED ON NUMBERS. You need to have spent a little time in a place getting to know the locals, the schools, the ammenities so that you can make a judgement on what is best for you and your family and not what is best for this fabled 90%. As Bev said before there is no rush, they will not be building a big wall around Dover and deploying anti aircraft missiles to stop anyone leaving. 

I live down in Sicily there are plenty of Lemons although you did say you wanted to avoid the hotter climes (Over time fair skinned or not your body does adapt and get used to it and in general a little sunscreen will go a long way)

In terms of your child making friends it will not be a problem Italian or no Italian, but they will pick it up quickly, they just do at that age. Most Italian kids want to learn English mainly for the American culture aspect but also because most parents over here do tell their kids learning English is as important as Maths nowadays. That has certainly been my experience. Although most grandmothers tell their grankids that learning Sicilian is far more important... You may find your child becomes one of the most popular kids in class while everyone vyes for her knowledge of English and in the future possibly an opportunity to go to the UK for work... maybe a little cynicysm there but I think you can get the jist of what I am saying.

In terms of food in Sicily you will be loved as a vegetarian... up until there is some Salame on the table and people look a bit weird when you won't try it.. even offended...

If you want a veg/fruit filled diet and you are open to the occasional bit of meat Sicily is the place! The weirder ingredients you use the better over here, still, somehow, it all tastes good. I always was more of a steak and mash kind of guy though 

Anyway hope that helps or at least entertains you for a couple of minutes 

Kenzo


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## Serious_Dad (Mar 21, 2017)

Guys, thanks v much for replying. I'll explain myself.

I have read what Americans go through in Italy, it sounds like a lot of uncertainty. With a family I just couldn't go for that. Just not a rolling stone. I was once interviewed for a job in Melbourne, a place I always wanted to live, but after 3 years when it ended, they could have kicked us out, so in the end I withdrew from it - I didn't even have a kid then but I really wanted to be settled down, more than anything.

I haven't got the time to handle my own taxes in Italy, I would need commercialista even though my affairs are pretty simple. I have filed returns myself in the UK and the USA but Italy is a different ball game.

What eduscopio seems to tell you how many school students went to university and how well they did in their first year there - I may be misreading that. So it's nothing about the teaching itself, just the results. Reporting school performance is a 2-edged sword though because in England it just has created this situation where it's +100k to get into a school catchment, as much money as going to a private school. I digress... 

Yeah I think if we came to repent of going, we will just have to write it off as a very expensive holiday and come back. But might carry on to sell our house and buy property in Italy or Spain anyway, if the Euro dips over the summer. This isn't a great time to be invested in the UK housing market.


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