# Johannesburg



## Hetal

Hi

I have been offered an opportunity to relocate with my company to Johannesburg. My family [wife and two girls aged 6 and 3] are Brits but currently live in Bangkok and have also lived in the US - so we are aware of what being an expat is like.

The job I have been offered is great but my concerns are around living in Johannesburg and in particular:

- is it safe
- can we have a "normal" life - ie while I am at the office can my wife get around with the kids [without me] with out the fear of the horror stories I seem to be hearing all the time
- are there good international schools?
- are there things to do for the family?
- can we go out freely in the evenings? eg for dinner etc

It would be great to hear from expats living in Jburg and particualrly Sandton where my offices are.

Any useful advice / guidance would be really appreciated as I am torn in that the job offer from my company is great but I dont want to compromise my family's safety & quality of life for the job.

Thanks

Hetal


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## Debi

Hi Hetal,

I live in Johannesburg and I live near Sandton. I have lived here all my life and worked in Sandton.

First of all, of course you can go anywhere with your family. If you are going to live in Sandton it is a very affluent area. Yes you do have to worry about your car being hijacked, especially if it is a luxury car, but here we just learn to be vigilant. Like lock your car doors, don't get out of your car in the driveway while you unlock your garage door. 

We all make sure we have electric gates and electric garage doors. When the gates open look around you and make sure there is no-one sneaking up on you, drive in, close the gate and then proceed to your garage. If you look after yourself then you will be fine. The stories are not frequent. Yes, some of them are true, but like I say, be vigilant and rather just get out the car and let them take it, who cares, it's just a car.

I would not worry about a thing. You can go out to dinner with your wife. But I wouldn't go out and leave children under the age of 16 home alone. Hire babysitters, there are plenty around. 

I am a single mom. I go out and come home late at night and travel alone. But I don't leave my children home alone and I make sure I look after myself. For example I stick to the main highways and not drive down dark roads by myself because then I look like a victim and am an easy target. There is crime. Houses do get broken in to. But then we make sure we have armed response which are private security companies that you pay a monthly fee to and if you push a panic button they come very fast. Do not rely on the police to do that, they are honestly not the quickest to respond to an emergency. We also have remote panic buttons for our security companies.
One of these companies' names are Chubb Security, which is one of the best. Look them up . They were my security company and responded to some "false" emergencies I thought I had and were great. We have alarms on our windows and doors to alert us if there is a break in and we have electric fences around the perimiters of our houses. I know this sounds terrible but they are deterrants. If you are going to live in Sandton, chances are where ever you are going to live has all of those things because most of the houses there do. I know Sandton very well, down to even the residential streets, as I have a lot of friends living there. Please do not worry about the crime. It is not like you have to go around with a gun to protect yourself or anything like that but don't go asking for trouble. We all live behind high walls, electric fencing and automatic gates and hire security firms.

But then this is a beautiful place and there is lots to do. There is an area called Magaliesburg nearby where the cradle of humankind is. That is where Mrs. Ples (the missing link in evolution) was located. There is a wonderful museum there and the Sterkfontein caves. There is a lot of openness here. With rivers and parks and botanical gardens. It really is beautiful. Sandton is very built up but if you drive just half an hour you can be out in the country and experience a lovely kind of life. I can give you a lot of feedback and information if you like.

By the way me nor any one I know has ever been affected by the crime here. We all just take the precautions I mentioned above just in case. 

I hope this helps. Let me know .
Debi


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## Stravinsky

Is this no longer the case then Debi?

https://www.osac.gov/Reports/report.cfm?contentID=71513

I know the reports are from last year, but the very first incident I looked at was in Sandton


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## Debi

Oh this made me laugh.

Some of the incidents are true, for example the Judy Sexwale thing but honestly, it is propaganda. Houghton is in Sandton. Yes crime does happen but of this magnitude? No way. I live here, I would see it the local newspapers and hear about it around town let alone see it posted on the web. 

Yes there is crimer here, but really it has been blown out of proportion. I have a four year old little boy and a teenager. Neither of them have come to any harm, hanging out in shopping centres, going for picnics. Please do not worry so much, just be vigilant and make sure you have security around your house and don't do stupid things like leave your car running whilst you jump out and unlock the gate, somebody will jump into it and drive away.

This is a beautiful country. The only gripe I have is that unemployment is rampant.

Debi


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## Debi

Dear Hentel,

When I mentioned your concerns to a friend of mine they reminded me of a website someone had set up to embelish the crime here so as to keep foreigners away and endeavour to try to get the police to be more active where crime in South Africa is concerned. Unfortunately I would not call our police force one of the best in the world. So that is something to consider whilst reading up on South Africa. I have just been privvy to an e-mail scam myself so I think we all have to be careful.

My family is from British origin and I am a stay-at-home mom at the moment, I would be most willing to help you and your family find your way around the area when you arrive if you so wish. I do not mind corresponding with you via e-mail so you have a local to be in contact with when you first get here to show you the ropes.

Good luck and all the best. I am very sure that you will not regret coming to our country.

Debi


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## Stravinsky

Debi said:


> Dear Hentel,
> 
> When I mentioned your concerns to a friend of mine they reminded me of a website someone had set up to embelish the crime here so as to keep foreigners away and endeavour to try to get the police to be more active where crime in South Africa is concerned. Unfortunately I would not call our police force one of the best in the world. So that is something to consider whilst reading up on South Africa. I have just been privvy to an e-mail scam myself so I think we all have to be careful.
> 
> My family is from British origin and I am a stay-at-home mom at the moment, I would be most willing to help you and your family find your way around the area when you arrive if you so wish. I do not mind corresponding with you via e-mail so you have a local to be in contact with when you first get here to show you the ropes.
> 
> Good luck and all the best. I am very sure that you will not regret coming to our country.
> 
> Debi



I'm just interested, honestly, in what you say.

If its propaganda, then who is it by?
For if you type in Crime Johannesburg, or crime Cape Town in Google then you come up with all kinds of terrible things. And I could direct you to a site where there are a number of expats who have left SA in fear of their lives.

I'm just very confused as to how its propaganda if its coming from so many different sources 

There is also a thing called the homecoming revolution and people from there tell you that there is no crime at all in SA and that its all under control


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## Daxk

Hi Debi,
Are you logged on with Eblockwatch?
I've just checked and Sandton has had some serious crimes.

Hetal, you could spend 40 years in SA and not experience what South Africans call serious crime, but if you do experience it,it tends to be a biggie.
Debi, unless she lives in a vacuum,is fully aware of how much crime is around her, the local newspapers, particularly the weekly Freebies such as the Sandton Chronicle, Rosebank Gazzette,Midrand Distorter etc were asked to only publish Capital Crimes. as it was affecting property sales in the area's.
Even before our Hijacking and Armed robbery 4 years ago (Left SA 3 years ago) At that time, in my street of 20 Houses ,before us, we had 3 armed robberies, two hi-jackings and innumerable burglaries.
I would suggest that Hetal and family rather read the SA online News services such as news24 and iol.co.za
That would give them a more balanced view,as after all, there are a lot of Saffa's who left,they cant all have been racists.


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## Daxk

thinking about Debi's post and starting to do a slow burn.
Blown out of proportion?
Incidents not true?
Go for long walks??
Really? where?
Delta park?
Emmerentia dam??
The Wilds perhaps?? Debi??
Magaliesburg??

I have friends, some trying very hard to get out, that live in that whole Sandton/Randburg/Fourways/Midrand Area and with the exception of Graham and Dorian, have ALL experienced either themselves or within the close family/Friends circle, serious crime.

Does Debi work for Homecoming revolution?? They have an office in a garage in Saxonwold? and seem to be the only ones in denial.


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## Worldwide Worker

It is very interesting to read all these posts and the opinions expressed. I think that often it so in your "back yard" that you in fact do not realise what is going on around you. I left South Africa many years ago (lost my work through the Affrimative Action Policy) and unfortunately I still have children there which I am pushing to leave as soon as possible. They have both recently graduated and cannot find employment.

Living away from there but at the same time still having family and hearing what is going on, it is a wonder that I actually sleep at night.

I have been to the Homecoming Revolution seminar here in London and I do believe that they are living in a blinkered world. Well now with all the power cuts through the country, probably more like a dark world. They have a crunch at the moment to get things done for the World Cup so thay want all the expertise back that left, yet nobody would give a guarantee that come 2010 you will not be sent packing again.

On my last visit in April 2007 it was most noticable that people do not move around after dark. My daughter lives in Durban and we went for a meal at the wharf development near the old yacht harbour. Coming back around 10pm the roads were so empty I actually asked if there is some curfue in place or something and were we allowed out, simply because it was so quiet. Similar situation in Cape Town visiting my son.

Both have had cellphones stolen, cars broken into and the like. Thank the Lord nothing more serious.

I really cannot imagine what it would be like to go back, although my heart stills lies in that piece of the African continent below the Limpopo.

André


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## Hetal

*Thanks*

Thankyou all for the info. Thanks Debi for your help also.
I will be in touch I I need more info / help
Hetal


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## Debi

Pleasure Hetal,

You don't have to listen to everybody. Personally, I have never, ever been touched by the crime here. I fail to see how that is living in denial when no-one I even know has been subjected to crime that I mix with and that is a conscious observation so what am I closing my eyes to? Propaganda was perhaps the wrong word to use because it actually has nothing to do with the politics as such, but private people. Maybe aggravation would have been a better word to use. Sure the odd cellphone has been stolen - my dad's was stolen off his desk at work. My mom's car - she was visiting her friend and when she left the car was not there anymore. Today the police phoned her and told her that they have located it and we are going to the pound to identify it on Saturday. Those incidences are not violent, does nothing get stolen in other countries? We do know here that the crime is as a result of unemployment.

I go for many walks with my children. What is wrong with emmarentia I ask myself. It is a beautiful dam and rose garden. I have even sneaked in there in the middle of the night to make out with my ex husband at the fountain (LOL). We are both still alive. I skydive in the limpopo - you should see the view from 15000ft - it's truly amazing, we camp out in the middle of nowhere at the drop zone afterwards.

I live a lovely life here. Sitting outside when the sun is setting every night with a sundowner in the warmth of the evening - which is most evenings - having a braai, watching the rugby on weekends or the cricket with a bunch of friends around. It's the kind of life I would hate to give up, albeit may have to. 

I fetch my teenage daughter from parties late at night. I go to the theatre and come home late at night. I am really very sorry but I think it's the oblivious people who are subjects of the crime.

I wish you and your family well  (I don't know how to find the smileys!)
Debi


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## Debi

Daxk,

I do not live in a vacuum and I do not work for the homecoming revolution and I resent those malicious remarks made towards me. I don’t think that it is fair for you to make those remarks about me when you don’t even know who I am. Why would you "get a slow burn" whilst reading my e-mail. Jealousy perhaps? Unhappy and "miss home"?

I am sorry about your friends Daxk, the areas you are talking about is exactly where I live, I know a lot of people and am a very sociable person. People tend to only hear about that bad things that go on. 

The moderators on this site have been very nice to me and I would like to apologise if I am causing any further argument but I got very upset to be personally picked on when the crime in this country is not even my fault.

Regards from sunny South Africa.
Debi


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## Daxk

Well, Debi I happen to know the area's you mention extremely well, I am in very frequent contact with people who still live there.Statistically I suppose its possible but if you are leading such a life as you say, I can only suggest you do it more often.


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## Daxk

Dear Debi, within the Sandton/Randburg area is Craighall,Parktown,ParkTown North etc,
These are some of the incidents in the past two years:
Sandy Staats of Craighall Park, who was tied up and boiled in hot water; 
Mike Thompson, father of two of Craighall who was stabbed, shot and thrown into his swimming pool in front of his young son; 
Terry Smith, also of Craighall, highjacked and shot dead the very next day; 
Theresa Goldworthy of Craighall Park, shot and killed while sitting in her car; 
Barbara Harrison of Beaufort Avenue, who was brutally attacked and died; 
Ian Giles of Giles Restaurant in Craighall Park - brutally murdered; 

This is apart fromthe Lap Family this last sunday.


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## Michele-In-SA

Hi Hetal,

All these posts have been very interesting to read. If i could just support what Debi said and that is that one has to be truly security conscious in SA. If you are alert, and have your wits about you, you will be okay. 

And yes a lot of South Africans are trying to leave the country but it seems that there are many returning as well. Homecoming Revolution is an excellent site, as already mentioned somewhere in the posts, and it should help with your decision. 

I know how tough it must be to make such a huge decision but if you have doubts and no peace in your heart about relocating then it would be better to stay where you are. Just my two pennies worth!


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## Stravinsky

Michele-In-SA said:


> Hi Hetal,
> 
> All these posts have been very interesting to read. If i could just support what Debi said and that is that one has to be truly security conscious in SA. If you are alert, and have your wits about you, you will be okay.
> 
> And yes a lot of South Africans are trying to leave the country but it seems that there are many returning as well. Homecoming Revolution is an excellent site, as already mentioned somewhere in the posts, and it should help with your decision.
> 
> I know how tough it must be to make such a huge decision but if you have doubts and no peace in your heart about relocating then it would be better to stay where you are. Just my two pennies worth!


Homecoming revolution, from my experience, seems to be an organisation that has been set up with the sole intention of encouraging people back to SA without full regard for the problems being encountered there, and as such therefore seems very one sided in its views. I know the poster who put that link up and I can assure you he was taking the mickey


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## Michele-In-SA

Stravinsky said:


> Homecoming revolution, from my experience, seems to be an organisation that has been set up with the sole intention of encouraging people back to SA without full regard for the problems being encountered there, and as such therefore seems very one sided in its views. I know the poster who put that link up and I can assure you he was taking the mickey


Yes, I hear you, and you could well be correct. I suppose the only thing one can really do then is find and speak to people who have relocated to SA and to get their opinions. At least then it would be straight from the horse's mouth so to speak.  mmmmmmmmm............perhaps I should put something like that up on my site as a survey?


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## Stravinsky

Michele-In-SA said:


> Yes, I hear you, and you could well be correct. I suppose the only thing one can really do then is find and speak to people who have relocated to SA and to get their opinions.


Yes you're right. Unfortunately we very rarely get posts from people who are actually there.
My overall experience of posters has always been very negative responses I'm afraid


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## Michele-In-SA

Stravinsky said:


> Yes you're right. Unfortunately we very rarely get posts from people who are actually there.
> My overall experience of posters has always been very negative responses I'm afraid


Perhaps because it's human nature to moan and complain? Perhaps everyone needs to stop and think for a moment about the positives.


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## TheEndGame

Hi All,

jsut wanted to tell my sie of story..... I stayed in Sandton for 2 years and was working in randburg for few months then was shifted to CBD.....

I never had any bad exp there... may be it all depends on knowing your surrounding... and avoiding danger areas....

I think Sandton is quite safe place... 
During weekend parties.. i even came back to home in mid nights and sometime even early morning.. nothinghappened with me .....

just people need to keep there car doors locked.... Use Highway .. and avoid roads with llots of robots.....

I have travelled in nights from Airport to North JHB .... And i found it quite safe.....

But at the same time few of my collegues got robbed at CBD.... I guess that was theer mistake.... No one is upposed to walk on roads there... thats kind of place people should avoid....

Thats wat i wanted to say....


Cheers
Anu


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## Mbali-sa

Hi Hetal,

My advice to you is to arrange a preliminiary visit to S.A, that way you can assess for yourself, South Africa is a beautiful country and has its good and bad points just like any other country, and its unfortunate that the media chooses to highlight only the negative points, i suppose bad news is what is said to sell. Feel free to contact me for any infor, i live and work in Midrand with my husband and kids and go about my life while of course practicing the necessary precautions. Ivy


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## Chapito

Yes, I am aware that I can be broken into in other places in the world, what worries me is the prospect of rape/murder during the burglary in SA. In such a gated community, with such a level of security, I would have thought that security companies would be very keen on keeping their contracts and would select their staff accordingly.
Now, if, in this highly secured community, a burglar makes it and break into my place, would he run the risk of aggravating his situation or only stick to stealing, knowing that an armed patrol is on its way ?
Are these 2 suppositions rather correct or am I being naive?


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## Darko

Chapito said:


> Yes, I am aware that I can be broken into in other places in the world, what worries me is the prospect of rape/murder during the burglary in SA. In such a gated community, with such a level of security, I would have thought that security companies would be very keen on keeping their contracts and would select their staff accordingly.
> Now, if, in this highly secured community, a burglar makes it and break into my place, would he run the risk of aggravating his situation or only stick to stealing, knowing that an armed patrol is on its way ?
> Are these 2 suppositions rather correct or am I being naive?


As I said before, if you want a guarantee that it will never happen to you - then DONT move to Jhb / SA. If you are happy with a 0.05% chance of being murdered, then make your own mind up.



Why not vist first - look-see??


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## Daxk

When you are lieing down with a gun to your head you are praying that there are no sirens or that no-one comes at that moment.
It is very common for them to shoot you at that point as any "rescuers" will attend to the wounded before chasing escaping criminals.
I speak from personal experience in the same way that I have 3 friends who were raped.


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## Darko

Chapito said:


> Yes, I am aware that I can be broken into in other places in the world, what worries me is the prospect of rape/murder during the burglary in SA. In such a gated community, with such a level of security, I would have thought that security companies would be very keen on keeping their contracts and would select their staff accordingly.
> Now, if, in this highly secured community, a burglar makes it and break into my place, would he run the risk of aggravating his situation or only stick to stealing, knowing that an armed patrol is on its way ?
> Are these 2 suppositions rather correct or am I being naive?


What job is it that you have been offered?
What is the start date in the offer?

I am always interestied in knowing these things, and why ANYONE woudl move anywhere without having at least been there once on a long holiday!


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## Michaela77

There is not a lot of good stuff you hear about SA. But most of these stuff is concentrated in the area of Joburg. I mean, of course these things can also happen in Cape Town, but Joburg is the number once place. I mean, you can surf the web and all the forums and blogs u can find about SA and Joburg, in each of them you will find these kind of stories. Like myself, couple of weeks ago, someone broke in our house, I woke up and saw him, was running behind him, till he turned and came on me with a knife in his hands. As I backed off, he turned again and went. I was lucky (in Cape Town).
But what my friends tell me about Joburg, thats hectic man. A friend, living in a security complex. While going through his front yard to the house, he sees a person with a gun on the corner. Just as the person starts shooting, he jumps into the house and closes the door. Later on a neighbour shoots the guy, who saw the happening. After that they find out, that the guy was fighting the security man at the gate and shot him, too.


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## Martinw

Michaela77 said:


> There is not a lot of good stuff you hear about SA. But most of these stuff is concentrated in the area of Joburg. I mean, of course these things can also happen in Cape Town, but Joburg is the number once place. I mean, you can surf the web and all the forums and blogs u can find about SA and Joburg, in each of them you will find these kind of stories. Like myself, couple of weeks ago, someone broke in our house, I woke up and saw him, was running behind him, till he turned and came on me with a knife in his hands. As I backed off, he turned again and went. I was lucky (in Cape Town).
> But what my friends tell me about Joburg, thats hectic man. A friend, living in a security complex. While going through his front yard to the house, he sees a person with a gun on the corner. Just as the person starts shooting, he jumps into the house and closes the door. Later on a neighbour shoots the guy, who saw the happening. After that they find out, that the guy was fighting the security man at the gate and shot him, too.



Michaela77 You have to in the unlucky crowd, because according to some people you have to be very unlucky for these things to happen to you. The odds are so low that they are bound not to happen at all. Well that is what I understand from some people on the forum.I would rather say that most people in SA would either have a personal experience of what you descibed and worse or know of someone that was affected this way. 

In Durban I missed robbers in my house by prob 2 minute(lucky for me, wife and 6month baby girl) I was that angry that I chased them in my car. They were that arrogant that they would stand prob 15 m away laughing knowing I could not drive through the park. I wonder if some people really believe that these things do not happen on a daily basis. A family member of mine was one of them that did not believe all the horror stories till it happened to her - That sort of opens your eyes. I do not believe everything anyone tells me, but when a lot of people say the same thing and have no reason to make it up, I would at least listen end take notice. Hope more people take notice of other people's experiences so they do not have to be the one to also have to tell it after it happened.


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## Darko

Martinw said:


> Michaela77 You have to in the unlucky crowd, ........ you have to be very unlucky for these things to happen to you. The odds are so low that they are bound not to happen at all.


Exactly MartinW. Finally you understand!!


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## Martinw

Darko said:


> Exactly MartinW. Finally you understand!!


Nice editing You are prob a journalist who edits things for a living to make it what you want to hear


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## Darko

Martinw said:


> Nice editing You are prob a journalist who edits things for a living to make it what you want to hear


Once again, on the money! You got me!


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## Chapito

I read that some houses have a secured door to separate the sleeping rooms from the rest of the house. How would such a thing prevent someone who already broke into your house (probably through the main entrance - a secured door) to reach your sleeping room ? Any experience ?


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## Daxk

Chapito, it slows them down.
The idea is that although all security gates can be broken, it takes time aand noise and is preferable to waking up with a gun against your head which happens often.

my own home in an upmarket suburb of Midrand(House is currently valued at 3.5 million to stop any comments about bad areas) has a 1.8m Palisade fence with 18 strands of electric Fencing on the inside, an electric gate with a battery backup and fast close facility, Infrared Motion Sensors as well as infrared motion detector Spotlights to cover all approaches to the house, Expanding security grilles on all windows and doors, House is Zone alarmed inside with 3x Double locked Security gates to divide the house in 3.

that is normal.
I had them in my yard at least three times that I knew of, each time they were detected and left, which is why they followed me home and hi-jacked me in my driveway before taking me inside.


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## Darko

Daxk said:


> Chapito, it slows them down.
> The idea is that although all security gates can be broken, it takes time aand noise and is preferable to waking up with a gun against your head which happens often.
> 
> my own home in an upmarket suburb of Midrand(House is currently valued at 3.5 million to stop any comments about bad areas) has a 1.8m Palisade fence with 18 strands of electric Fencing on the inside, an electric gate with a battery backup and fast close facility, Infrared Motion Sensors as well as infrared motion detector Spotlights to cover all approaches to the house, Expanding security grilles on all windows and doors, House is Zone alarmed inside with 3x Double locked Security gates to divide the house in 3.
> 
> that is normal.
> I had them in my yard at least three times that I knew of, each time they were detected and left, which is why they followed me home and hi-jacked me in my driveway before taking me inside.


Chapito,

It does NOT happen often, but out of interest, pls forward the source of information - i.e. where you read such a story? On this forum is fine. 

Knowing a little more about you now leads me to believe that your intentions are probably not all that apparent regarding SA. 

What Daxk describes is NOT normal at all. 18 strand electric fencing normal???? I've NEVER seen this in the few decades that I've lived in SA. Nor are "expanding security grilles" on windows. I can only imagine how much attention and curiosity such measures must attract.


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## Daxk

Dear Darko,
Kindly take a drive around Vorna Valley/Noordwyk/ Kyalami Gardens/The reeds/Centurion/Garsfontein/Fourways/Jukskei/Johannesburg North,Paulshof,Woodmead..
I can fill the rest of this page.
The Normal was 6 strand Electric Fencing on top of te pre-cast or Palisade.
Our little riends then would break the bottom panel in passing with a sledgehammer in the day and keep on walking, come back at night and pry open and your electric fence is now by-passed.

The palisade is spot welded so same thing, crowbar in and by pass electric fence,
so you add a further 12 strand, to give you a total of 9 Positive and 6 Negative,

darko, I thought you were observant.
Google trellidor.co.za or Maxidor.co.za or Xpanda.co.za and you will find plenty of examples.
If you have a chat to Trellidor johannesburg and Pretoria branches they will tell you how many of their orders are exactly like mine.

"I've NEVER seen this in the few decades that I've lived in SA. Nor are "expanding security grilles" on windows. I can only imagine how much attention and curiosity such measures must attract. "
Not as much unwelcome attention as not having them.
Spanish bars across the windows are far more common but Fire risk and cleaning windows make trellidors on windows are a better option.

Darko, Are you sure you live in Gauteng?


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## Martinw

Daxk said:


> Dear Darko,
> .
> 
> Darko, Are you sure you live in Gauteng?


Probably not - Even Durban/Pinetown I can remember houses having all this security if you could afford it - Darko obviously only sees and believes what he wants to and try to convince other people to do the same - 

Darko, I dont think you are fooling a lot of people. We all know what and how it looks there like over there.


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## Darko

Daxk said:


> Dear Darko,
> Kindly take a drive around Vorna Valley/Noordwyk/ Kyalami Gardens/The reeds/Centurion/Garsfontein/Fourways/Jukskei/Johannesburg North,Paulshof,Woodmead..
> I can fill the rest of this page.
> The Normal was 6 strand Electric Fencing on top of te pre-cast or Palisade.
> Our little riends then would break the bottom panel in passing with a sledgehammer in the day and keep on walking, come back at night and pry open and your electric fence is now by-passed.
> 
> The palisade is spot welded so same thing, crowbar in and by pass electric fence,
> so you add a further 12 strand, to give you a total of 9 Positive and 6 Negative,
> 
> darko, I thought you were observant.
> Google trellidor.co.za or Maxidor.co.za or Xpanda.co.za and you will find plenty of examples.
> If you have a chat to Trellidor johannesburg and Pretoria branches they will tell you how many of their orders are exactly like mine.
> 
> "I've NEVER seen this in the few decades that I've lived in SA. Nor are "expanding security grilles" on windows. I can only imagine how much attention and curiosity such measures must attract. "
> Not as much unwelcome attention as not having them.
> Spanish bars across the windows are far more common but Fire risk and cleaning windows make trellidors on windows are a better option.
> 
> Darko, Are you sure you live in Gauteng?


I know those areas VERY well daxk - still...18 strand electric fences "normal" - LOL!!! :lol:

I just wonder how observant people are if they don't notice a sledgehammered chuck of wall missing from their properties - when our "friends" use the methods described by you above. If a person is that idiotic not to notice that, well then....

Spanish bars, for sure - seen those - even seen / heard of 1 or 2 cases of expandable grilles on windows - but normal? :lol:

Your risks are "mostly" entry and exit from property.


----------



## Darko

Martinw said:


> Probably not - Even Durban/Pinetown I can remember houses having all this security if you could afford it - Darko obviously only sees and believes what he wants to and try to convince other people to do the same -
> 
> Darko, I dont think you are fooling a lot of people. We all know what and how it looks there like over there.


Jislaaik but you're clever. Not only did you get my jounalism career spot on, but now you know that I don't live in gauteng.

I don't think you have any clue whatsoever what its like here - citing the one house with 18 strand electric fencing as the "norm" - quite ridiculous

But this is common amongst the few expats overseas. We in SA are accused of seeing what we want to, and you are accused of remembering what you want to - dead-end arguments in my opinion.


----------



## Martinw

Darko said:


> Jislaaik but you're clever. Not only did you get my jounalism career spot on, but now you know that I don't live in gauteng.
> 
> I don't think you have any clue whatsoever what its like here - citing the one house with 18 strand electric fencing as the "norm" - quite ridiculous
> 
> But this is common amongst the few expats overseas. We in SA are accused of seeing what we want to, and you are accused of remembering what you want to - dead-end arguments in my opinion.



Yes almighty Darko - no point in arguing with you as you seemingly know everything. Just wondering why so many South Africans have and are still leaving the country - Probably have some smart answer for that too. You know what - we arent all stupid so rather save all this c........ you are trying to sell people. I dont anyone buys any of this c..........:clap2: You should do your homework a bit better, because I am sure you are out with your emigration figures by prob 5 or 6 0's


----------



## Daxk

Darko, in my case the sledgehammer cracks the panel of concretet precasr right through, it does'nt just fall apart,looks quite normal unless you see the crack if you patrol the wall becore going to bed, which i did'nt.

"If a person is that idiotic not to notice that, well then...."
So its the victims fault??
They we'rent "Careful "enough?

"Spanish bars, for sure - seen those - even seen / heard of 1 or 2 cases of expandable grilles on windows - but normal? "

Expanding grilles are made to retract to the side of the window,darko,but then too its difficult to see the Houses as how many have high walls?
Most of trellidors business is whole house if not a "Safety Cell" which is all windows in the sleeping area at least.
At the time my House cost me R30k to do,SIL just did her new 3.6m sliding door and passage at ZAR10k this last week in Edenvale.

"Your risks are "mostly" entry and exit from property"
Yes, darko, and the increase in efficiency of Car Protection devices created car Hi-jacking , and the increase of efficiency in tracking devices meant the owner gets taken with.
So the increase in level of Armed response and Home security has increased the levels of attack at the drive way gate.

Would you like me to quote you how many home invasions there were ?SAPS Data is slightly out of Date, its 22 months overdue for some strange reason??

Darko, just as a matter of interest. which suburb are you in?


----------



## Darko

Martinw said:


> no point in arguing with you as you seemingly know everything.


You are learning fast MartinW!:clap2:



Martinw said:


> Just wondering why so many South Africans have and are still leaving the country - Probably have some smart answer for that too. You know what - we arent all stupid so rather save all this c........ you are trying to sell people. I dont anyone buys any of this c..........:clap2: You should do your homework a bit better, because I am sure you are out with your emigration figures by prob 5 or 6 0's


Ag shame....now now, life's not that bad. :rain:


----------



## Chapito

I have only just realised that I had posted my 13th May 2009, 10:24 AM message in the wrong thread. Sorry Hetal, I meant to post it on the one I had started earlier http://www.expatforum.com/expats/so...a/22022-moving-johannesburg-6-month-baby.html



Darko said:


> It does NOT happen often, but out of interest, pls forward the source of information - i.e. where you read such a story? On this forum is fine.


Good question. I've been reading so much to try and make up my mind that I am not sure any more. But I do think it was on one of the posts on this forum.



Darko said:


> Knowing a little more about you now leads me to believe that your intentions are probably not all that apparent regarding SA.


I don't understand what you mean here, maybe it's because I am not a native speaker. Could you kindly explain?


----------



## Darko

Daxk said:


> Darko, in my case the sledgehammer cracks the panel of concretet precasr right through, it does'nt just fall apart,looks quite normal unless you see the crack if you patrol the wall becore going to bed, which i did'nt.
> 
> "If a person is that idiotic not to notice that, well then...."
> So its the victims fault??
> They we'rent "Careful "enough?


Please tell me you're not one of those expats who puts words in people's mouths!



Daxk said:


> "Spanish bars, for sure - seen those - even seen / heard of 1 or 2 cases of expandable grilles on windows - but normal? "
> 
> Expanding grilles are made to retract to the side of the window,darko,but then too its difficult to see the Houses as how many have high walls?
> Most of trellidors business is whole house if not a "Safety Cell" which is all windows in the sleeping area at least.
> At the time my House cost me R30k to do,SIL just did her new 3.6m sliding door and passage at ZAR10k this last week in Edenvale.?


Wow, maybe its me who really is unobservant. Of the 800 or so homes I have visited in SA over my lifetime (yes, I have counted) not a single 1 had these devices - perhaps they had the camouflaged versions which tuck away behind a secret door - you know the ones, those doors that open in a wall when you take out book 3 on shelf 2 in the library :lol:



Daxk said:


> "Would you like me to quote you how many home invasions there were ?SAPS Data is slightly out of Date, its 22 months overdue for some strange reason???


If you wouldn't mind.



Daxk said:


> "Darko, just as a matter of interest. which suburb are you in?


Now, now. That would take some of the fun away if I gave too much away.


----------



## Darko

Chapito said:


> I have only just realised that I had posted my 13th May 2009, 10:24 AM message in the wrong thread. Sorry Hetal, I meant to post it on the one I had started earlier http://www.expatforum.com/expats/so...a/22022-moving-johannesburg-6-month-baby.html
> 
> 
> 
> Good question. I've been reading so much to try and make up my mind that I am not sure any more. But I do think it was on one of the posts on this forum.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't understand what you mean here, maybe it's because I am not a native speaker. Could you kindly explain?


I actually think that you are a better "native" speaker than you lead us to believe. Your thread-starting writing style and grammar appears to be worse than subsequent response posts. Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I doubt you you are who you say you are


----------



## Daxk

Darko said:


> Please tell me you're not one of those expats who puts words in people's mouths!
> 
> Kindly explain your comment as quoted then the "if a person is too idiotitic to notice" one,
> 
> Wow, maybe its me who really is unobservant. Of the 800 or so homes I have visited in SA over my lifetime (yes, I have counted) not a single 1 had these devices - perhaps they had the camouflaged versions which tuck away behind a secret door - you know the ones, those doors that open in a wall when you take out book 3 on shelf 2 in the library :lol:
> 
> You obviously are unobservant, or! you are too inured to notice,because its the norm. the frog in the Pot syndrome perhaps?
> 
> If you wouldn't mind.
> Certainly, www,saps.gov.za
> 
> http://www.saps.gov.za/statistics/r...il_2001_2008/catagory/robbery_residential.pdf
> That gives you the figures for Robbery residential premises up to march 2008
> Thats not Burglaries, its people with weapons in homes.For some strange reason we dont know wether the 5.4% decrease shown in Gauteng has continued.
> 
> 
> 
> Now, now. That would take some of the fun away if I gave too much away.


With some of your comments I actually sometimes doubt that you are in SA at all.


----------



## Darko

Daxk said:


> With some of your comments I actually sometimes doubt that you are in SA at all.


In couldn't care less what you believe honestly

I live here now, and have lived here a long time. I therefore an quite well placed to know what IS the "norm". What you describe is NOT the norm, but I will play your game...it's fun. You surely must be taking the piss?! :tongue:

Being an investor (not only in properties) and owner of 3 properties - the one I live in, in Gauteng, and 2 others (Eastern cape and Northern KZN) I have a rough idea of what the norm is. This is why I must surely not take you seriously....surely.

Regarding your sledgehammer theory, I believe they have now changed to the "shawshank redemption method" whereby they slowly, over a 20 yr period, slowly gouge a tunnel through your front garden wall using a blunt teaspoon which goes unnoticed to the owner as they cover up each day with a poster. They felt the sledgehammer techique was too obvious.


----------



## Daxk

yes Darko, and I own 5 properties, all in Gauteng, I have lived there for 54 years and unless there has been a major removal of all security in the past 4 years, what I say holds true.

I can only assume that as a journalist, you are trying to get a reaction by trying to negate fact.
Problem is, anyone else living in Jhbg, with the exception of a few gated Communities where the external security resembles a prison and who has the money has electric fences , has alarms as well as physical barrier security on Doors and windows, and if you can afford it, all doors and windows
If you are trying to deny this you are lieing and this conversation is going nowhere.


----------



## Darko

Daxk said:


> yes Darko, and I own 5 properties, all in Gauteng, I have lived there for 54 years and unless there has been a major removal of all security in the past 4 years, what I say holds true.
> 
> I can only assume that as a journalist, you are trying to get a reaction by trying to negate fact.
> Problem is, anyone else living in Jhbg, with the exception of a few gated Communities where the external security resembles a prison and who has the money has electric fences , has alarms as well as physical barrier security on Doors and windows, and if you can afford it, all doors and windows
> If you are trying to deny this you are lieing and this conversation is going nowhere.


Ag a nee...another one who thinks I'm a journalist. I actually took you to be more intuitive than poor ole MartinW. Me thinks I was wrong 

I can only assume that the absolute garbage that you keep churning out: 18 strand electric fencing is teh standard; trellidor on all windows is the standard - is to do exactly what you accuse me of doing - create a reaction. Ireland must be lonely, but if you want attention just tell me and I'll search the net for SA social groups in Ireland for you. Good grief man, do you really mean that you weren't taking the p!ss when suggesting that 18 strand fencing is the "norm" - :lol: have you gone completely bonkers? 

PS: In addition to my 3 residential properties I own 2 commercials (both in Gauteng). Didn't realise this forum was a mouthpiece for humility!!


----------



## Darko

Thanks for those stats by the way daxk from SAPS. Shows a decline in crime, and makes me realise that there are 20 instances a day in gauteng - I have 15:clap2:0 houses in my residential road alone, nevermind the whole province so at least I am certain now that my chances are slim, thanks to your info.
:clap2:


----------



## Daxk

With Pleasure Darko, You stated you were a journalist on this thread, another thing I need to disbelieve then,
As to the stats, yes a 5.4%5 decrease in the period ending march 2008 was good.
Excellent news.
Its also a year out of date, Last years stats were supposed to be out last June, they still are'nt out.
Wonder why?

As to your personals, I'm quite fine thank you, no help needed.
I also dont tend to interfere or post unless someone is spreading absolute BS which you are at the moment.

Perhaps people cant afford to have the levels of security I mention in the circles that you travel in, and I mereley mentioned part of my portfolio in response to your "Humility". 
Take a wander through Midrand bud, down New road to Crowthorne, have a beer at fibbers, cross over the road into the estates there, do some counting of strands along the way,
Wander around the areas I have suggested, they will also mostly be where new arrivals such as chapito will live,


----------



## Darko

Daxk said:


> With Pleasure Darko, You stated you were a journalist on this thread, another thing I need to disbelieve then,
> As to the stats, yes a 5.4%5 decrease in the period ending march 2008 was good.
> Excellent news.
> Its also a year out of date, Last years stats were supposed to be out last June, they still are'nt out.
> Wonder why?
> 
> As to your personals, I'm quite fine thank you, no help needed.
> I also dont tend to interfere or post unless someone is spreading absolute BS which you are at the moment.
> 
> Perhaps people cant afford to have the levels of security I mention in the circles that you travel in, and I mereley mentioned part of my portfolio in response to your "Humility".
> Take a wander through Midrand bud, down New road to Crowthorne, have a beer at fibbers, cross over the road into the estates there, do some counting of strands along the way,
> Wander around the areas I have suggested, they will also mostly be where new arrivals such as chapito will live,


I most certainly did not state that....I merely congratulated MartinW on his tremendous insight (NOT).

"Wonder why?" - Tell me why! I feel another wrong prediction coming up 

Oh no daxk, your humilty was quite evident well before today's discussions. I wont go into the many examples of your humility prior to today. (I owned a R3.5m value house....and that was THEN...bvlah blah blah")

:boxing:

We can continue this childish banter or get onto the facts - whenever you're ready?!


----------



## Chapito

Darko said:


> I actually think that you are a better "native" speaker than you lead us to believe. Your thread-starting writing style and grammar appears to be worse than subsequent response posts. Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I doubt you you are who you say you are


Darko, I don't have a hidden agenda, I am really considering this move to SA but what I hear scares me. However, you've made my wife really happy on that one: she used to live in anglophone countries and always complains that her English has gone down the drain since she's been in Switzerland. She is the one responsible for my variations in English and you're right when you say I am not who I say I am - sometimes I am my wife :clap2: 

Talking about her, my wife spent most of 1997 in SA so one of us does know the place. But as she says, 12 years is a long time for such a fast changing country. So question to those of you who already knew the place back then: how does the level of crime now compare to the level back then?


----------



## Darko

Chapito said:


> Darko, I don't have a hidden agenda, I am really considering this move to SA but what I hear scares me. However, you've made my wife really happy on that one: she used to live in anglophone countries and always complains that her English has gone down the drain since she's been in Switzerland. She is the one responsible for my variations in English and you're right when you say I am not who I say I am - sometimes I am my wife :clap2:
> 
> Talking about her, my wife spent most of 1997 in SA so one of us does know the place. But as she says, 12 years is a long time for such a fast changing country. So question to those of you who already knew the place back then: how does the level of crime now compare to the level back then?


Chapito,

My apologies then for thinking that you were a rogue poster instead of 2 people posting on one nick. I did find the change quite suspiscioous though. 

You have every right to feel more scared. From what sources are available, I cannot blame you for feeling this way.

In my opinion, the levels in 97 are much the same as now - no material differences. If your wife found the 1997 conditions acceptable, then she should, in all likelihood, find current conditions acceptable. It was bad - as bad then as it is now.

Why not come over for 2/3 weeks look-see excercise and decide for yourself? I could email you a photograph of my entire street where I live to show yuou that not a single house has 18 strand electric fencing!! Much of what some people say on this forum is quite frankly a joke, and a means of entertainment. The facts are the facts however and you must be the judge. Be very careful who you choose to take facts from however - the proper sources of facts and those from peopel currently in SA would be a good start though.


----------



## Daxk

Do any of the Houses in your street have electric fencing?
Do they have palisadefencing or walls?
any razor wire anywhere?
anything at all on top or behind?
any spanish burglar bars?
Amazes me that you have been unable to see Trellis in windows

and no, no prediction, mereley wondered why the Crime stats were'nt released? they have been ready since last June.


----------



## Darko

Daxk said:


> Do any of the Houses in your street have electric fencing?
> Do they have palisadefencing or walls?
> any razor wire anywhere?
> anything at all on top or behind?
> any spanish burglar bars?
> Amazes me that you have been unable to see Trellis in windows
> 
> and no, no prediction, mereley wondered why the Crime stats were'nt released? they have been ready since last June.


Daxk,

1. Yes, most of the houses do (but not all) - i would say that 60-75% do - 6 strand seems to be "the norm".
2. Yes - ALL have either palisade fencing / walls.
3. I think 1 has razor wire.
4. Yes on the spanish bars - about 10-20 such cases. As you said before, it can represent a major fire risk so is not all that poular. 
5. Daxk, if Trelli's on windows were the norm I would notice. Perhaps in your affluent hood it was, but not mine. Perhaps i need an upgrade? Though i do have smash proof glass!


----------



## Daxk

,Darko,I've just posted some pics I downloaded off the Trellidor.co.za website on the album here, unfortunately, the Domestic brochure i downloaded which shows lots and lots of houses with Trellidoors on the windows is a pdf, kindly download it 
The beauty of expanding grilles is during the day when you dont want as much security you stack it neatly to one side, also helps with window cleaning, and at night you close it.
6 strand WAS the norm until they started coming through under neath it.
pick up a phone and call your friendly electric fence Company and ask them.
Sentinel fencing did mine.
Smash proof glass is'nt where they attack, and if they do, they use a spark plug the same way they do your side windows at a robot, a Clamping wrench with enough leverage bends normal Burglar bars out the way, quietly.


----------



## Daxk

Chapito,
its difficult to assess as the playing fields get changed a bit each year,
My general impression is that Crime IS dropping , that there IS a reduction in Crime.

wether this is due to increased security I dont know, it certainly is'nt due to Policing as the conviction figures in the law Courts have dropped considerably vs the amount of crime.

Murders are down, Home Invasions in Johannesburg are up , rapes are stated to be under reported by the rape Crisis Centre and Institute of security Studies reports and on a personal experience level I can believe that SA police stations try and discourage reporting of Crimes"as it makes them look bad"

I know of very few "Positive" posters who have personally experienced Violent Crime.
I see lots of Positive posters who have'nt.
Until it happens , then they change outlook but mostly they dissapear.

Its called an attitude adjustment "Klap" (slap)


----------



## Darko

Daxk said:


> ,Darko,I've just posted some pics I downloaded off the Trellidor.co.za website on the album here, unfortunately, the Domestic brochure i downloaded which shows lots and lots of houses with Trellidoors on the windows is a pdf, kindly download it
> The beauty of expanding grilles is during the day when you dont want as much security you stack it neatly to one side, also helps with window cleaning, and at night you close it.
> 6 strand WAS the norm until they started coming through under neath it.
> pick up a phone and call your friendly electric fence Company and ask them.
> Sentinel fencing did mine.
> Smash proof glass is'nt where they attack, and if they do, they use a spark plug the same way they do your side windows at a robot, a Clamping wrench with enough leverage bends normal Burglar bars out the way, quietly.


I hear you....I know this. I just haven't seen 18 strand yet....on a residential property - maybe I will soon.

If they get underneath, they will have to contend with my 2 rabid boerbull males - 120kg's of pure muscle and ferocity! :lol:


----------



## Darko

Daxk said:


> ,Darko,I've just posted some pics I downloaded off the Trellidor.co.za website on the album here, unfortunately, the Domestic brochure i downloaded which shows lots and lots of houses with Trellidoors on the windows is a pdf, kindly download it
> The beauty of expanding grilles is during the day when you dont want as much security you stack it neatly to one side, also helps with window cleaning, and at night you close it.
> 6 strand WAS the norm until they started coming through under neath it.
> pick up a phone and call your friendly electric fence Company and ask them.
> Sentinel fencing did mine.
> Smash proof glass is'nt where they attack, and if they do, they use a spark plug the same way they do your side windows at a robot, a Clamping wrench with enough leverage bends normal Burglar bars out the way, quietly.


It appears I was right....the norm for residential properties that DO have electric fencing is anything from 5 strand to 8 strand:

Electric Fencing

"There are many types of electrified fencing installations available in the market today, most range from 5 to 8 strand for domestic installations"

As I said before, and this site appears to agree with me, 18 strand is certainly NOT the norm and in only some selective cases is it used on commercial properties: i.e. warehouses etc etc

Imagine that....a SAcan, living in SA knowing what the "norm" is in SA, better than an ex-Pat living in Ireland. Who would've though!! :lol:

Of course my argument goes straight out of the window if you tell me that you lived in a warehouse! Then again, there are a lot of industrial properties and warehouses in Midrand!


----------



## Daxk

Ben Schoeman towards Prtoria, turn off at New Road, wander down towards Fibbers, have a beer or a staek at he Spur, leave, turn right, straight over the road through the security gates, count the strands.
Glenferness, Chartwell, Midrand, Fourways,
Ok, I was wrong to say its the norm
Let me rephrase and say that those who can afford it have 18 strand electric fences.
and no, I did not live in a warehouse.
Any idea why warehouses and factories spend the extra money? why dont they just stick with 6 strand?
Darko, you have this knack of honing in and trying to negate, by your own admission there are electric fences and the "Norm" is 6 to 8 strand according to you. 
kindly post a link t the site and i will phone them on monday morning and report back,

Shock horror!! daxk asys 18 strand and Trellidor are the norm! he's wrong!

the norm is 6 strand and Spanish bar and 120 kg attack trained maltese poodles and armed security guards and high fences etc...
Listen to what you are argueing about, darko.
Is Chapito coming from somewhere with similar security?
Does every SA house that I went into in middle to upper income areas have a security gate to separate the sleeping area from the rest of the house?
Are the sliding dors and windows protected far better than Ireland or the UK in comparable neighbourhoods??
Its not Humility bud,
I spent money on Security instaed of a Bay liner or on changing the Car every year.
I did'nt just rely on two boerbulls as boebulls,like all dogs, will take biltong or hamburger from someone they Trust.
Mike Ling in Midrand had 6 boerbulls. they still got in.
i


----------



## Daxk

Buccleuch Drive, BUCCLEUCH | 2 bedroom house for sale | Property for sale in Buccleuch, Sandton and Bryanston (North), Gauteng | Ref:F8955 | Private Property

"• SECURITY: Motorized gate, trellie doors on all openings, burglar bars and 18 strand electric fencing 
BUCCLEUCH DRIVE is close to convenience Spar and other amenities at Buccleuch Shopping Centre, has easy access M1 and N3 (North and South) close to Makro and Woodmead Mall, local schools and churches "

That was just a quick Google, Bucleuch is an upmarket suburb between Midrand and Sandton


----------



## Daxk

Small Warehouse tho,


----------



## Darko

Daxk said:


> Small Warehouse tho,


Raise the bar Daxk. Surely one example of a house with your "norm" description does not prove that anything is the norm. 

I tell you what though, if such security measures are the norm, then you should not have to filter AT ALL (like you did to find that solitary example) on private property to get a page full of properties with 18 strands and trellidoors on windows. So I challenge you to prove me wrong. :boxing:


----------



## Daxk

Not at all, Darko, I did'nt bother with a major search or a filter, mereley typed in House for sale 18 strand Trelli* in contrast to your I have NEVER seen in 80 houses comment
as well as its only done for warehouses ...
It boils down to priorities darko, i'm not interested in seeing who can pee farther,if you can afford it and it is on your list of proirities 18 strand is the way to go as any of the electric Fencing Companies will tell you(agreed, they do have a vested interest)
.
If you choose to have lower levels of security , thats your choice. 

Chapito asked a question on this thread on wether a security gate inside was required.
he and his wife will be renting, probably in an upmarket area, they are concerned about security.
If the rental is the same, would they prefer a house with or without Electric fencing?
if yes, and 18 strand is more secure than 6 strand which is more secure than 3 strand which is more secure than nothing... which should they go for?
In the same vein, burglar bars over te opening window vs Spanish bar and the fire hazard or trellidoors on Doors and windows?
If they have a choice of 10 rental units which should they go for?,

You dont appear to have any concerns about security, relying on two massive guard dogs,
great, i dont have a problem with that, love Dogs, took my Dogs for Training and defensive work, we all enjoyed it.
Difference is I did'nt stop there.
And if you become exposed to crime, you might also increase your security level too.
whats the old Joke, you dont have to outrun the lion, only your friends.


----------



## Darko

Daxk said:


> Not at all, Darko, I did'nt bother with a major search or a filter, mereley typed in House for sale 18 strand Trelli* in contrast to your I have NEVER seen in 80 houses comment.


I merely provided security company opinion to substantiate my know proven theory. 



Daxk said:


> as well as its only done for warehouses ....


...again, the security companies agree with me. 




Daxk said:


> It boils down to priorities darko, i'm not interested in seeing who can pee farther,if you can afford it and it is on your list of proirities 18 strand is the way to go as any of the electric Fencing Companies will tell you(agreed, they do have a vested interest)....


I'd rather go with the "norm" as described by all SAcans and security companies.

PS: And I agree...you certainly DO NOT want to get into a p!ssing contest with me ! :lol:




Daxk said:


> If you choose to have lower levels of security , thats your choice. )....


The factual "norm" suits me just fine thanks.



Daxk said:


> Chapito asked a question on this thread on wether a security gate inside was required.
> he and his wife will be renting, probably in an upmarket area, they are concerned about security.
> If the rental is the same, would they prefer a house with or without Electric fencing?)....


Oh definitely WITH electric fencing. I just take exception to your lies as to what the "norms" are.




Daxk said:


> if yes, and 18 strand is more secure than 6 strand which is more secure than 3 strand which is more secure than nothing... which should they go for??)....


Why stop at 18...hell, go for 36, with titanium reinforced walls and foundations; 3 hellhounds and a bazooka :lol:




Daxk said:


> If they have a choice of 10 rental units which should they go for?,??)....


If safety is their ONLY concern, I would go for the highly secure warehouse you describe. Alternatively, if they'd like a family home (or just a comfy home) to live in - a "normal" house should suffice.



Daxk said:


> You dont appear to have any concerns about security, relying on two massive guard dogs,?,??)....


What? Another thumbsuck from upset expat!! Couldn't possibly be!! I have 6 strand; alarm and armed response with 2 dogs.


----------



## Daxk

Darko said:


> I hear you....I know this. I just haven't seen 18 strand yet....on a residential property - maybe I will soon.
> 
> If they get underneath, they will have to contend with my 2 rabid boerbull males - 120kg's of pure muscle and ferocity! :lol:


*Cough* I've told you where to go.


----------



## Darko

Daxk said:


> *Cough* I've told you where to go.


yes, they are my 8th contingency...now where did i say that I ONLY rely on my dogs?! I know it's tough when an argument has been proven wrong. I've been there daxk.......once when i was 6 yrs old.....but come now...18 strand the "norm" Bwaaahaaaaahaaaa - show me a single link to a web page that says residential properties normally have 18 strands and this is teh current norm in SA and I will concede defeat - as ungraciously as ever.


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## Daxk

OK, just phoned two Companys who install electric fences, they are emailing pics through of residential installs with 18 strand on the inside of palisade, the same as mine.
when I have them, will post them at Flickr or Photobucket.

Dont know what your problem is bud,I've already said that 18 strand is the ideal if you have the money.
Its not a case of winning or losing, if you BS, i will correct you.


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## Darko

Daxk said:


> OK, just phoned two Companys who install electric fences, they are emailing pics through of residential installs with 18 strand on the inside of palisade, the same as mine.
> when I have them, will post them at Flickr or Photobucket.
> 
> Dont know what your problem is bud,I've already said that 18 strand is the ideal if you have the money.
> Its not a case of winning or losing, if you BS, i will correct you.


You see, there you go again. You don't seem to understand how your filtered criteria will always yield a result - eg If I search for a woman with an orange face on google, I will OBVIOUSLY find a picture of a woman with an orange face on google. But, does that mean that orange faces are the "norm"? To my reckoning - a resounding NO!! Somehow, your logic says, if i can find it, then it must be the "norm". 

:lol::lol::lol:

Applying your very same strange logic, space travel is the "norm" for ordinary people (as I can prove to you that a certain group of peopekl having been into space) etc etc - Do I really need to go on to explain the very basic flaw to your logic!!

IF 18 strand is the "norm", you would not have to phone anyone at all to find your "specific" critetria - a simple search on a property website (NOT specifically searching for 18 strand as a criteria, but leaving the search fields as generic as possible) should yield a page of results ALL with 18 strand electric fences. But guess what....you can't because it's a silly little lie!!

Sorry boet! But if your 18 strand is teh norm, then so is my orange-faced female the norm!!

:clap2:


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## Daxk

Daxk said:


> Chapito, it slows them down.
> The idea is that although all security gates can be broken, it takes time aand noise and is preferable to waking up with a gun against your head which happens often.
> 
> my own home in an upmarket suburb of Midrand(House is currently valued at 3.5 million to stop any comments about bad areas) has a 1.8m Palisade fence with 18 strands of electric Fencing on the inside, an electric gate with a battery backup and fast close facility, Infrared Motion Sensors as well as infrared motion detector Spotlights to cover all approaches to the house, Expanding security grilles on all windows and doors, House is Zone alarmed inside with 3x Double locked Security gates to divide the house in 3.
> 
> that is normal.
> I had them in my yard at least three times that I knew of, each time they were detected and left, which is why they followed me home and hi-jacked me in my driveway before taking me inside.


Dear Darko.
Kindly re-read my post.


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## Darko

Daxk said:


> Dear Darko.
> Kindly re-read my post.


Dear Daxk,

Just did.

You said it's normal to have (and I quote): "...has a 1.8m Palisade fence with 18 strands of electric Fencing on the inside...." "that is normal."

So you still insist it's normal?


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## Daxk

"my own home in an upmarket suburb of Midrand"
and I clearly said thats Normal to have that level of Security.
And in my life that WAS normal.
Just as a matter of interest, you have 6 strand electric Fence, what is that on top of?
A wall?
a pre cast wall?
some wire fencing
Palisade?


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## Daxk

Darko said:


> Dear Daxk,
> 
> Just did.
> 
> You said it's normal to have (and I quote): "...has a 1.8m Palisade fence with 18 strands of electric Fencing on the inside...." "that is normal."
> 
> So you still insist it's normal?


In my life it is.
and for those of my friends who had palisade forced open with a motor car Jack, as happened in my yard, and who could afford it, it is.
whats normal in your life?darko?
High levels of securiy IS Normal in Gauteng.
but again, levels of security in Tembisa or Ivory park will have a different level of "Normality" than a middle income suburb which will have a lower level of Security as NORMAL than a suburb with a higher level of discretionary income.

Dont know where you are in the food chain and dont care either,
my normal is obviously different from your normal.


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## Darko

Daxk said:


> In my life it is.
> and for those of my friends who had palisade forced open with a motor car Jack, as happened in my yard, and who could afford it, it is.
> whats normal in your life?darko?
> High levels of securiy IS Normal in Gauteng.
> but again, levels of security in Tembisa or Ivory park will have a different level of "Normality" than a middle income suburb which will have a lower level of Security as NORMAL than a suburb with a higher level of discretionary income.
> 
> Dont know where you are in the food chain and dont care either,
> my normal is obviously different from your normal.


I'm glad we've finally cleared that up: It was "normal" in YOUR life and NOT normal to the average SAcan. Had you clearly stated that at the beginning, all the subsequent nonsense would've been avoided.

Correct...your normal is indeed different to my/the rest of SA's normal.

:clap2:


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## 71305

*Hello Hetal, have you finally moved to South Africa?*



Hetal said:


> Thankyou all for the info. Thanks Debi for your help also.
> I will be in touch I I need more info / help
> Hetal


Hello Hetal, Have you finally moved to South Africa? If so, can you tell me about your experience so far? I have been offered a job in Sandton and I am pondering whether to move. I will be relocating from Canada with my fiancee.

Thanks
Alberto


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## giddydalvi

hi, i read all your replies. i have questions too. we (me and my husband) will be soon moving to south africa come jan 2010. pl help me understand how is the place. i am little paranoid about safety issues etc. pl can someone highlight life today in joburg.


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## LionKing

Hi Debi,
I've been reading a lot on this forum very quietly and have just now decided to register and introduce myself. You come across as a very kind soul indeed! I wouldn't argue against your theories, in fact I think there are a few people on this forum that are trying to prevent expats from moving to SA. there aren't that many forums so it's an easy win for them I guess, and they do spend an extortionate amount of time trying to protect their country from newcomers. I suspect they have their reasons. 

I'm considering moving to Sandton, so your advice is very helpful. I've been to SA quite a lot, but mainly Cape Town. However, there's a good opportunity in Sandton that is well worth considering. 
I don't know about Joburg, but I have spoken to locals in Cape Town and they totally endorse your views on the balance of saftey and lifestyle aspects of living there. I think the benefits outweigh the concerns especially if you adopt a very careful and streetwise attitude. 

I know there are no guarantees of something really bad and traumatic happening to anyone, even the very vigilant. But then you could be killed by a drunk driver in the safest city in the world. 

As you know the Sandton area really well, could you possibly advise on best (safest) location and the type of accommodation which would be good for a family with a toddler? i.e. cluster, apartment complex etc. We'd want to be amongst a nice community of social families, with facilities like swimming pool (most importantly). Do you know a good website to search for properties? 

Many thanks in advance, I owe you lunch (when and if we eventually move)!! 

LionKing


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## ROKZY

LionKing; In what interest would anyone want to prevent someone from moving to SA?? I see more posters with a suspicious desire to sugar coat SA- although I do agree it's not all doom and gloom....


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## LionKing

ROKZY said:


> LionKing; In what interest would anyone want to prevent someone from moving to SA?? I see more posters with a suspicious desire to sugar coat SA- although I do agree it's not all doom and gloom....


Let me turn the tables for a moment Rokzy...

Why do you think there's a 'suspicious' desire to sugar-coat SA? What would be the motivation to do that?

To do the reverse, to strike the fear of god into anyone is just OTT. I understand the need to impart crime stats - to ensure potential expats are aware of the dangers and for them to be able to make a fair assessment, but to carry on arguing the point to death is far more 'suspicious'. 

However, I'm glad you agree that it's not all doom and gloom. That should be the message to anyone thinking of coming to SA. But leave it at that. The threads just go off topic and don't answer the OP's questions. Surely that would be far more constructive and helpful. 

I'm actually surprised that admins and mods haven't stepped in to control this over-enthusiastic attempt to convince people not to come.


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## ROKZY

LionKing said:


> Let me turn the tables for a moment Rokzy...
> 
> Why do you think there's a 'suspicious' desire to sugar-coat SA? What would be the motivation to do that?


Lion King,

With the apparent skilled worker shortage coupled with an eager desire for tourist money from the upcomming event, it would not be suprising if there are those in place to propagandize the situation. 

While I do agree there are some over zealous negative posters; I respect and fully believe it has been their experience in SA that has created their belief system and their posts come from a heart felt desire to impart wisdom and safety to others. 

Google- white south african genocide- if you need further clarification.

However, SA has a lot of good to offer and I would not want to be anywhere else right now.


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## LionKing

On your last point - good to hear it! 

Listen I think we're on the same track so please don't take this as an argument...

But my point was that their need to impart their heart-felt wisdom and safety advice based on traumatic emotional experiences, then they should construct their posts as such, not ignore OP's requests for advice and attempt to convince them not to go. 

That's all.


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## Halo

LionKing said:


> I know there are no guarantees of something really bad and traumatic happening to anyone, even the very vigilant. But then you could be killed by a drunk driver in the safest city in the world.
> 
> LionKing


Statements like this make me want to throw....... Its shown either nativity or total ignorance when it comes to safety. Apologies for seeming rude but you cannot just make sweeping statements like that with no vociferous retort. :confused2:

Tsk Tsk


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## LionKing

What is it about the nativity that my statement shows? Drunk drivers are more prone to killing someone at Christmas? Ah I see now. 

Seriously though, I think you need to calm down if a statement like that makes you feel like being vociferous. 

Anyway, I think your missing my point in an attempt to find something to argue about.


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## Halo

LionKing said:


> What is it about the nativity that my statement shows? Drunk drivers are more prone to killing someone at Christmas? Ah I see now.
> 
> Seriously though, I think you need to calm down if a statement like that makes you feel like being vociferous.
> 
> Anyway, I think your missing my point in an attempt to find something to argue about.


Not at all, one has to put facts first....... simple.


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## LionKing

Well again, if you had read my post, I'm not asking anyone to ignore the facts - so with all due respect, I think you are missing the point.


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## Halo

LionKing said:


> Well again, if you had read my post, I'm not asking anyone to ignore the facts - so with all due respect, I think you are missing the point.


How so?


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