# Moving to Spain - what happens to our UK state pension?



## far_wide (May 7, 2020)

Hi all,

Wife and I are planning on moving to Spain this year. 

We'll be continuing to work over there, and each have roughly 15 accrued years of UK state pension qualification.

My question is - what happens to those years? Do we have a free choice as to whether they'll be left in the UK for us to eventually receive a smaller UK state pension, or be transferred over to Spain to build towards a pension there?

Or are you forced to do one or the other?

Finally, does this change if we become resident after Dec 31st 2020?


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

You can still make voluntary contributions to the UK state pension system while working abroad. They only cost about 12 pounds a month so it's not a bad option. Once working in Spain you will contribute to the Spanish pension system as well, but you won't qualify for the Spanish contributory state pension until you've been paying in for 15 years. And that might even go up to 20 years. There is an EU mechanism that allows you to make the years worked in the UK count towards the Spanish state pension, should you retire in Spain, but if you choose that route you'd lose the UK state pension. Also I'm not sure if you'll still have that option if you become resident in Spain after the transition period is over. I suspect the safest option is to keep making voluntary contributions to the UK state pension as they are not expensive. Then when you retire you can choose the best option available to you, based on how many years you have worked in Span and the UK.


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## far_wide (May 7, 2020)

Thanks Chopera, that's very helpful.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Chopera said:


> You can still make voluntary contributions to the UK state pension system while working abroad. They only cost about 12 pounds a month so it's not a bad option. Once working in Spain you will contribute to the Spanish pension system as well, but you won't qualify for the Spanish contributory state pension until you've been paying in for 15 years. And that might even go up to 20 years. There is an EU mechanism that allows you to make the years worked in the UK count towards the Spanish state pension, should you retire in Spain, but if you choose that route you'd lose the UK state pension. Also I'm not sure if you'll still have that option if you become resident in Spain after the transition period is over. I suspect the safest option is to keep making voluntary contributions to the UK state pension as they are not expensive. Then when you retire you can choose the best option available to you, based on how many years you have worked in Span and the UK.


Hi chopera
Jumping on the thread here, is there a link to voluntary contributions etc and some sort of calculator?

Because Brexit was undecided re S1 for future pensioners we were aiming to retire via Spain to gain healthcare but now we are guaranteed an S1 we do not need to go down that route. I will have a full pension from U.K. husband will be five years short so would be interested in seeing how much we would need to add to make a significant difference 

Thanks


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## ccm47 (Oct 15, 2013)

Voluntary National Insurance contributions (called Class 3) are £15.30 PER WEEK, and if you underpay by 1 week in a year then the whole of the rest counts for nothing.
Link to Gov.Uk is here https://www.pensionsadvisoryservice.../the-state-pension/voluntary-ni-contributions


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

Chopera said:


> You can still make voluntary contributions to the UK state pension system while working abroad. They only cost about 12 pounds a month so it's not a bad option. Once working in Spain you will contribute to the Spanish pension system as well, but you won't qualify for the Spanish contributory state pension until you've been paying in for 15 years. And that might even go up to 20 years. *There is an EU mechanism that allows you to make the years worked in the UK count towards the Spanish state pension, should you retire in Spain, but if you choose that route you'd lose the UK state pension*. Also I'm not sure if you'll still have that option if you become resident in Spain after the transition period is over. I suspect the safest option is to keep making voluntary contributions to the UK state pension as they are not expensive. Then when you retire you can choose the best option available to you, based on how many years you have worked in Span and the UK.


No - you would still be entitled to your UK State Pension as well as the Spanish one. 
The Euro Pension route is merely a mechanism whereby Spain would take into account 
the number of years you have worked ( and paid into the British State Pension through NIC's )
although it might be working year NIC's that are counted; in order to meet the minimum
number of years entitlement for Spain which is currently a minimum of 15 years.

Of course if the final years of your working life is spent in Spain then ( under
the present system ) you notify the Spanish Social Security office and claim
your pension through them and Spain will also notify the UK that your
retiring - so no need to do a trip to the UK and claim your UK entitlement over
there as Spain will start the process for you. Under the present system.

Therefore if you have only worked 10 years in Spain but 40 years in the UK,
then you would easily tick the box for the 15 year minimum qualifying period
although this will not entitle you to the same level of Spanish Pension for
someone who has worked the full 15 year qualifying period in Spain.

Instead you would get a proportionate amount of what you would have got if
you had worked the full 15 years minimum period in Spain. The proportionate
amount being equal to the actual number of years you have been working and
paying into the Spanish State pension scheme.
Of course any Brits who have worked and contributed into the Spanish State
Pension scheme for 15 years or more don't have to use the Euro Pension route
and naturally get their full 15 year entitlement or whatever depending on
how many years they would have worked beyond ticking the minimum 15 year
entitlement.

As far as I understand it Brexit means that Spain will ignore any British working
year NIC contributions made by any future retiring British Expat into their British
State Pension scheme after 31/12/2020 but will still count the years before
that date ( although this could be subject to confirmation after the WA or mutual
agreements between the UK and Spain )


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

ccm47 said:


> Voluntary National Insurance contributions (called Class 3) are £15.30 PER WEEK, and if you underpay by 1 week in a year then the whole of the rest counts for nothing.
> Link to Gov.Uk is here https://www.pensionsadvisoryservice.../the-state-pension/voluntary-ni-contributions


As the link says...



> The NICs that you can pay voluntarily are normally Class 3 contributions, *but if you're self-employed or working abroad, you can pay Class 2 contributions instead.*


So if you go for the class 2 contributions, further down the page it says....



> Cost of voluntary NICs
> The cost depends on the year you want to pay for. The cost for the 2020/21 tax year is:
> 
> £15.30 a week for Class 3 voluntary NICs
> £3.05 a week for Class 2 voluntary NICs


Class 2 is the one to go for if you are living in Spain, as AFAIK it only contributes toward the state pension and none of the other social services. Which makes sense as you'll be paying for those in Spain instead. And paying £3.05 a week for a state pension of up to £175 a week is an absolute bargain.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Williams2 said:


> No - you would still be entitled to your UK State Pension as well as the Spanish one.
> The Euro Pension route is merely a mechanism whereby Spain would take into account
> the number of years you have worked ( and paid into the British State Pension through NIC's )
> although it might be working year NIC's that are counted; in order to meet the minimum
> ...


Yes, what I meant to say was that you'd lose the voluntary contributions towards the UK state pension. But thinking about it, I'm not sure about that either. The Spanish system would only count the years working in the UK when calculating the Spanish state pension, but the UK might still take them into account.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Chopera said:


> As the link says...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You can only pay Class 2 voluntary contributions if you are WORKING in Spain or are self-employed, not just living in Spain. I am in the process of arranging to pay some years of voluntary contributions at the moment to boost my state pension, although I already have the 35 years of contributions (but I was contracted out for most of my working life which lowers the amount of my state pension). I cannot pay Class 2 contributions because I have not worked since moving to Spain in 2006 - but it will still be worthwhile for me to pay a few years Class 3 contributions. I'm currently waiting for HMRC to get back to me about how much I need to pay as I want to make a one-off payment. On the phone they told me I had to send them a Form CF83, which I have sent off but not yet received a reply.

https://www.gov.uk/voluntary-national-insurance-contributions/deadlines


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Megsmum said:


> Hi chopera
> Jumping on the thread here, is there a link to voluntary contributions etc and some sort of calculator?
> 
> Because Brexit was undecided re S1 for future pensioners we were aiming to retire via Spain to gain healthcare but now we are guaranteed an S1 we do not need to go down that route. I will have a full pension from U.K. husband will be five years short so would be interested in seeing how much we would need to add to make a significant difference
> ...


You can top up missing UK state pension contributions, I think the maximum was 6 years last time I looked. I have an account with HMRC for paying self assessment and it also gives a lot of information about the status of my state pension, and how much I still need to contribute.

https://www.gov.uk/log-in-register-hmrc-online-services


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

Chopera said:


> Yes, what I meant to say was that you'd lose the voluntary contributions towards the UK state pension. But thinking about it, I'm not sure about that either. The Spanish system would only count the years working in the UK when calculating the Spanish state pension, but the UK might still take them into account.


As far as making additional voluntary NIC contributions to your British State Pension in order to make up for any shortfall 
in your entitlement to qualifying for the full British State Pension is concerned.

Then it is well worth making those additional voluntary contributions - ignore the poster who suggested that you
would lose your UK State Pension if you claim the Spanish State Pension as it's not true.
Suffice to say you cannot make additional voluntary contributions for years you have not worked or lived in
Spain.

If you have worked in both countries and been contributing to the state pension schemes of both countries ( while they
were in the EU ) then you would be entitled to both ( as it stands now ) and likely so under the WA and or bilateral
agreements.


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## far_wide (May 7, 2020)

Chopera said:


> As the link says...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Mmmm, reading through myself, I'm not sure this is how this policy is intended. I think this is aimed at people spending time abroad working *temporarily* and not those becoming permanent residents of spain:

https://www.gov.uk/national-insurance-if-you-go-abroad

"If you’re self-employed (up to 2 years)
You might be able to carry on paying National Insurance if you’re:

usually self-employed in the UK
working abroad temporarily"

unless I've misunderstood something?

edit: The pensions advisory site doesn't seem to cover this very well, but does link to this information under 'periods spent abroad'.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Chopera said:


> And paying £3.05 a week for a state pension of up to £175 a week is an absolute bargain.


Not quite. 3.05 x 52 = £158.60 will give you an extra contribution year, so for every year you are short of full pension entitlement before you reach state retirement age (soon to rise to 66), £158.60 entitles you to 1/35 extra pension a week, or 175.20 / 35 = £5.00. If you have to pay Class 3 voluntary contribution of £15.30 a week, it's not such a good deal, unless you live many more years beyond 65/66. Break-even point is living just over 3 years longer on pension for every year's voluntary contribution.
Also if you aren't entitled to full state pension because you have for a time been contracted out of state second pension (e.g. you were on occupational pension scheme), you can increase your state pension by paying voluntary contribution but only up to your state pension age. 
Do a state pension forecast to find out your personal circumstance.


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

Joppa said:


> Not quite. 3.05 x 52 = £158.60 will give you an extra contribution year, so for every year you are short of full pension entitlement before you reach state retirement age (soon to rise to 66), £158.60 entitles you to 1/35 extra pension a week, or 175.20 / 35 = £5.00. If you have to pay Class 3 voluntary contribution of £15.30 a week, it's not such a good deal, unless you live many more years beyond 65/66. Break-even point is living just over 3 years longer on pension for every year's voluntary contribution.


True when looking at State Pensions and additional contributions to them, you would obviously take into account
whether you reckon you would live long enough to see your 66 birthday or whatever age governments will raise
the State Pension scheme upto depending on your date of birth.

But there again the demographics have been forever on an upward curve as regards life expectancy in western
european countries whereas in countries like Russia the average life expectancy is about 60 to 65 although saying
that Russia can still field a sizeable army of medal bedecked Soviet World War II veterans for those Red Square
parades.

Also don't forget Captain Tom's age in his efforts in raising money over in the UK during the Coronavirus lockdowns.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

far_wide said:


> Mmmm, reading through myself, I'm not sure this is how this policy is intended. I think this is aimed at people spending time abroad working *temporarily* and not those becoming permanent residents of spain:
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/national-insurance-if-you-go-abroad
> 
> ...


This is what Which? magazine says:

'What if I’ve spent periods abroad? 
You may be able to pay voluntary National Insurance contributions if you're living abroad or fill in gaps from when you were living abroad. If you’re living and working abroad, you’ll pay Class 2 contributions, but only if you worked in the UK immediately before leaving and you’ve previously lived in the UK for three years in a row and paid three years of contributions. Those not working can pay Class 3, but only if at some point you’ve lived in the UK continuously for three years and paid three years of contributions. Voluntary National Insurance contributions paid from abroad don’t cover your health insurance in the country where you live.

Read more: https://www.which.co.uk/money/pensi...on/can-i-top-up-my-state-pension-an0q09p37nsj - Which?


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## far_wide (May 7, 2020)

Joppa said:


> This is what Which? magazine says:
> 
> 'What if I’ve spent periods abroad?
> You may be able to pay voluntary National Insurance contributions if you're living abroad or fill in gaps from when you were living abroad. If you’re living and working abroad, you’ll pay Class 2 contributions, but only if you worked in the UK immediately before leaving and you’ve previously lived in the UK for three years in a row and paid three years of contributions. Those not working can pay Class 3, but only if at some point you’ve lived in the UK continuously for three years and paid three years of contributions. Voluntary National Insurance contributions paid from abroad don’t cover your health insurance in the country where you live.
> ...


That does indeed some to suggest it's fine (which would be great if it is).

But surely direct HMRC guidance > Which magazine?

If you follow the trail down to the paper HMRC form you need to complete, it's here:

https://public-online.hmrc.gov.uk/l...ns/NICs_iForms/1.0/CA3837&template=CA3837.xdp

Right up front it says "This form should be used by a person who is normally self-employed in the United Kingdom (UK) and is going to work 
temporarily in another country within the European Economic Area (EEA)"

If someone wants to tell me i have the wrong form then I'll be very happy about that!


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

far_wide said:


> That does indeed some to suggest it's fine (which would be great if it is).
> 
> But surely direct HMRC guidance > Which magazine?
> 
> ...


Read the full rules in https://assets.publishing.service.g.../uploads/attachment_data/file/832814/NI38.pdf


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## far_wide (May 7, 2020)

Joppa said:


> Read the full rules in https://assets.publishing.service.g.../uploads/attachment_data/file/832814/NI38.pdf


Thanks, though it seems this leaflet doesn't apply to us. The introduction states:

"This leaflet does not apply to everyone.
If you’re:
• going to a European Economic Area (EEA) country or to a country which has a reciprocal agreement on social security with the UK, see pages 2 and 3 for how to get more information"

Pages 2 and 3 say:

"If you went to an EEA country or Switzerland, or are considering
going to one of these countries, go to https://www.gov.uk/national-insurance-if-you-go-abroad for more information"

(Spain is then listed as an applicable country)

..which then leads right back to the GOV.uk page I referred to earlier...


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

far_wide said:


> That does indeed some to suggest it's fine (which would be great if it is).
> 
> But surely direct HMRC guidance > Which magazine?
> 
> ...


As I said in my earlier post, you need Form CF83 (which comes at the end of Leaflet NI38 which you can access via this link):-

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/social-security-abroad-ni38


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

SWMBO works for 10 months each year teaching at a private academy so she pays Class 2 contributions for the 10 months and Class 3 for two months. Don't forget that the UK tax *year* is unrelated to anything else, being 6th April to 5th April.


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## far_wide (May 7, 2020)

Lynn R said:


> As I said in my earlier post, you need Form CF83 (which comes at the end of Leaflet NI38 which you can access via this link):-
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/social-security-abroad-ni38


As in my above post, NI38 specifically excludes Spain:

"This leaflet does not apply to everyone.
If you’re:
• going to a European Economic Area (EEA) country or to a country
which has a reciprocal agreement on social security with the UK,
see pages 2 and 3 for how to get more information"

edit: just for clarity, I'm not trying to say anyone is wrong and I know best. I have no experience in all of the above, I'm just reading a leaflet telling me that this is not a leaflet for people going to Spain - apparently!


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

far_wide said:


> As in my above post, NI38 specifically excludes Spain:
> 
> "This leaflet does not apply to everyone.
> If you’re:
> ...


I rang up the NI Department of HMRC, told them that I am resident in Spain and wanted to pay voluntary Class 3 NI contributions, and it was they who told me I must complete and return Form CF83.


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## far_wide (May 7, 2020)

Meanwhile, I'm in a livechat waiting window for the advisory service. If I ever get through and they can advise anything useful, I'll report back.

Wouldn't it be great if life were simple?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

far_wide said:


> Meanwhile, I'm in a livechat waiting window for the advisory service. If I ever get through and they can advise anything useful, I'll report back.
> 
> Wouldn't it be great if life were simple?


Anything involving UK Govt. departments is never simple.


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## far_wide (May 7, 2020)

baldilocks said:


> Anything involving UK Govt. departments is never simple.


Well quite. It doesn't surprise me to find this sort of apparent contradictory info.

I just don't want to do the wrong thing for 20 years and then end up featuring in the Daily Mail in some sob story about paying pointless NI contributions for a non-existent pension


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

far_wide said:


> Meanwhile, I'm in a livechat waiting window for the advisory service. If I ever get through and they can advise anything useful, I'll report back.
> 
> Wouldn't it be great if life were simple?


Thank you, that would be good. Really, if someone is resident abroad but doesn't work, I don't see what difference being in a country with a reciprocal SS agreement would make, because they wouldn't be entitled to claim their benefit from that country anyway, only from the UK where they had contributed.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

far_wide said:


> Well quite. It doesn't surprise me to find this sort of apparent contradictory info.
> 
> I just don't want to do the wrong thing for 20 years and then end up featuring in the Daily Mail in some sob story about paying pointless NI contributions for a non-existent pension


I usually negotiate direct with HMRC regarding contributions and TVP regarding pensions.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Lynn R said:


> Thank you, that would be good. Really, if someone is resident abroad but doesn't work, I don't see what difference being in a country with a reciprocal SS agreement would make, because they wouldn't be entitled to claim their benefit from that country anyway, only from the UK where they had contributed.


but if they DO work, their pension contributions in the EU country count towards their pension and they claim their UK pension through the EU country


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

far_wide said:


> Well quite. It doesn't surprise me to find this sort of apparent contradictory info.
> 
> I just don't want to do the wrong thing for 20 years and then end up featuring in the Daily Mail in some sob story about paying pointless NI contributions for a non-existent pension


Surely the whole system's existence in 20+ years down the line is a total gamble?

Welfare states are struggling world-over, the UK seems to be somewhat ahead of the curve if reports on the NHS are true. 
So might it not be the case that voluntary contributions might be better directed into the Spanish system? (Which in itself is in a questionable position to remain in place for 20 years to come).

I agree that I moved relatively young to Spain (I was 30), but I decided to try to get a full Spanish pension rather than try to keep up my UK contributions, and I don't regret that choice today.


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## far_wide (May 7, 2020)

Overandout said:


> Surely the whole system's existence in 20+ years down the line is a total gamble?
> 
> Welfare states are struggling world-over, the UK seems to be somewhat ahead of the curve if reports on the NHS are true.
> So might it not be the case that voluntary contributions might be better directed into the Spanish system? (Which in itself is in a questionable position to remain in place for 20 years to come).
> ...


Well, this goes back to my original post. Given that I already have 15 years of UK state pension years, I'm not clear on what happens when I move and then work in Spain (as autonomo btw)

- do my 15 UK years get counted as Spanish-qualifying and I just get a Spanish pension?
- Or do I end up with a small UK pension and a small Spanish pension?
- and do I have a choice in the above, or is it mandated somewhere?

(and I guess I'll just have to deal with an anarchic potential future if it comes to it! Bigger problems than NI years if so!


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## ccm47 (Oct 15, 2013)

My apologies in that I tried to answer 2 posters in one answer. You can only pay class 2 if you are WORKING abroad, and you could be asked to prove that e.g. by pay slips and copies of tax returns. Early retirement abroad does not entitle you to pay Class 2, nor would a long period of being between jobs. You would then have to pay Class 3.
Best idea: discuss with the officials in Newcastle.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

far_wide said:


> Mmmm, reading through myself, I'm not sure this is how this policy is intended. I think this is aimed at people spending time abroad working *temporarily* and not those becoming permanent residents of spain:
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/national-insurance-if-you-go-abroad
> 
> ...


The thing is you can "temporarily" be working in Spain for say 20 years, and automatically be given permanent residency in Spain after the first 10 years. That's what happened to me. Becoming a permanent residence of Spain doesn't mean you don't plan on returning to the UK some time later on. It just gives you certain rights to make it easier for you to keep living in Spain, given you have already been there for a long time. Several years ago I checked with HMRC about this, because in theory I could end up claiming the full UK state pension and almost the full Spanish state pension, by paying into both systems at the same time. And they said it was ok.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

far_wide said:


> Well, this goes back to my original post. Given that I already have 15 years of UK state pension years, I'm not clear on what happens when I move and then work in Spain (as autonomo btw)
> 
> - do my 15 UK years get counted as Spanish-qualifying and I just get a Spanish pension?
> - Or do I end up with a small UK pension and a small Spanish pension?
> ...


I am in a similar situation, having several pensions of very little value in the UK including a civil servant's scheme, private scheme and of course NI. I made an attempt to join them all together at one point years ago, but there was some obstacle which made it impossible for one of the smaller private schemes to be joined with the rest, can't remember what.
In any case, my understanding (and I am no expert on this!) is that the state contributions will count for something possibly at some point as long as the system exists, i.e. there is no minimum contribution to get something. I know a Spaniard who worked in the UK for a few years in the 60s and she gets a small pension from the contributions made, but it is an insignificant amount.

In Spain however I know that I will have to work beyond normal retirement age (or make some extra contribution) to get a "full" state pension as there is a minimum number of years contributing in order to qualify but as I only will fall short by a small margin (as per current rules) it makes more sense to make the effort here.

This is why I will just take what I get (if anything) from the UK scheme(s) but I have virtually written it off.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Overandout said:


> Surely the whole system's existence in 20+ years down the line is a total gamble?
> 
> Welfare states are struggling world-over, the UK seems to be somewhat ahead of the curve if reports on the NHS are true.
> So might it not be the case that voluntary contributions might be better directed into the Spanish system? (Which in itself is in a questionable position to remain in place for 20 years to come).
> ...


But you can get both state pensions. For 12 pounds a month it's really worth paying into the UK system as well, and I'm pretty sure you can backdate payments for several years.

I doubt very much that the UK state pension system will collapse, the bigger risk is the (continued) devaluation of the pound which might make it less valuable to you. But at least by paying into both systems you have some kind of currency hedge, because anything could happen to the euro as well by the time you retire.

The Spanish contributory pension has been at risk, but the Spanish government has been getting round this by making it harder for people to qualify for it. They've been increasing the number of years you need to pay into it, they've been increasing the retirement age, and they've changed the way they calculate the payouts so they are generally lower as well. I suspect there'll be further reductions to the Spanish state pension as a result of the current crisis. Without wanting to get into Spanish politics too much, the current coalition parties don't particularly rely on pensioners for their votes, so pensions might be easier targets when the inevitable cuts arrive.


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## Phil Squares (Jan 13, 2017)

I think there is some confusion with respect to Brexit and Social Security agreements. 

In my case, I had worked for almost 30 years in the US and paid into the US Social Security system and then worked in Singapore, UAE and Qatar. Then worked for about 8 years in the UK. I did not meet the minimum requirements for qualification either 10 or 15 years, can't really remember. DWP was very upfront and said I could use my working experience in the UK to qualify as the UK would use my work history in the US or any other country there was an agreement. They could then either pay me based on what the UK pension would be or just credit the years working in the US and pay me what my contributions would be under the UK part. Financially, the best thing to do was to keep the payments separate and just get credit for the years worked. 

My wife is in a similar situation in that she has worked in the US, UK and now Spain. Even though she will most likely not have the minimum work requirement in Spain the Spanish authorities will use the combined years from the US and UK. Then she will get a prorated share of her contributions. She won't lose any money as such and in her case, it works out better if she gets her US social security and have Spain pay based on her UK and Spain contributions. 

Brexit will not change the social security agreement which is a separate agreement.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Chopera said:


> But you can get both state pensions. For 12 pounds a month it's really worth paying into the UK system as well, and I'm pretty sure you can backdate payments for several years.
> 
> I doubt very much that the UK state pension system will collapse, the bigger risk is the (continued) devaluation of the pound which might make it less valuable to you. But at least by paying into both systems you have some kind of currency hedge, because anything could happen to the euro as well by the time you retire.
> 
> The Spanish contributory pension has been at risk, but the Spanish government has been getting round this by making it harder for people to qualify for it. They've been increasing the number of years you need to pay into it, they've been increasing the retirement age, and they've changed the way they calculate the payouts so they are generally lower as well. I suspect there'll be further reductions to the Spanish state pension as a result of the current crisis. Without wanting to get into Spanish politics too much, the current coalition parties don't particularly rely on pensioners for their votes, so pensions might be easier targets when the inevitable cuts arrive.


Good points Paseo!

In my early days in Spain, the last thing I needed was more expense (even a few quid more a month when on a Spanish wage and still paying off student loans would have killed me!), that's why I made the choice.

But now you might be right and it might be worth it, although it's been 16 years + since I paid any UK contributions and I'm loathed to pay into a system where I can't vote for who holds the purse strings.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Phil Squares said:


> I think there is some confusion with respect to Brexit and Social Security agreements.
> 
> In my case, I had worked for almost 30 years in the US and paid into the US Social Security system and then worked in Singapore, UAE and Qatar. Then worked for about 8 years in the UK. I did not meet the minimum requirements for qualification either 10 or 15 years, can't really remember. DWP was very upfront and said I could use my working experience in the UK to qualify as the UK would use my work history in the US or any other country there was an agreement. They could then either pay me based on what the UK pension would be or just credit the years working in the US and pay me what my contributions would be under the UK part. Financially, the best thing to do was to keep the payments separate and just get credit for the years worked.
> 
> ...


Hi

Can I clarify something with you to make sure I’ve not misunderstood, which is perfectly possible!

I ave full contributions in the U.K. so reach the standard for a full pension despite early retirement at 55. In 2025 I reach state pension age in the U.K. I will have been working and paying social security Payments in Spain for ten years. 

Do I claim Spanish pension with top ups from U.K. for the full 35 years I have there and receive a spanish pension OR apply through U.K. via Spain for the 35 years and receive from U.K. government 

I’m a bit confused 🤷*♀


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## Phil Squares (Jan 13, 2017)

Megsmum said:


> Hi
> 
> 
> 
> I’m a bit confused 🤷*♀


Join the club. To be honest the people at the UK DWP were extremely helpful. My understanding was since I had the maximum credits in the US social security system, it was better for me to receive my US social security and then use the work experience, which is part of the US-UK social security treaty, which would allow me to have the required years of employment which was IIRC 10 years and I had 8. So, my UK pension is based on 8 years of contributions which in reality amounts to beer money. But every bit helps I suppose. 

So, I would imagine you would be in the same position. My advice would be to contact an accountant or at least call the DWP office in the UK and seek their advice. 

Sorry, I can't give you a more definitive answer.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Megsmum said:


> Hi
> 
> Can I clarify something with you to make sure I’ve not misunderstood, which is perfectly possible!
> 
> ...


Under the EU Pensions Regulations (assuming they still apply post 31/12/2020) you apply for your pension in the country where you last worked - in your case, Spain - and they get in touch with any other country in which you have worked to aggregate your pension. Spain would then pay your combined pension direct to you.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

baldilocks said:


> Under the EU Pensions Regulations (assuming they still apply post 31/12/2020) you apply for your pension in the country where you last worked - in your case, Spain - and they get in touch with any other country in which you have worked to aggregate your pension. Spain would then pay your combined pension direct to you.


Thanks. So it does not matter that I would not have the full amount of years in Spain. 

I presume the U.K. Pays it to Spain? Which pension figure do I base it on? U.K. or Spanish amounts. 

Husband not worked here so he applies direct to U.K.? 

Although much can change in the upcoming years, trying to get our budget ducks in a row!


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

baldilocks said:


> Under the EU Pensions Regulations (assuming they still apply post 31/12/2020) you apply for your pension in the country where you last worked - in your case, Spain - and they get in touch with any other country in which you have worked to aggregate your pension. Spain would then pay your combined pension direct to you.


The experience of my Spanish friend who I referred to earlier who worked in the UK in the 60s was that she could choose to either aggregate the UK entitlement to her Spanish one or collect them separately.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Overandout said:


> Good points Paseo!
> 
> In my early days in Spain, the last thing I needed was more expense (even a few quid more a month when on a Spanish wage and still paying off student loans would have killed me!), that's why I made the choice.
> 
> But now you might be right and it might be worth it, although it's been 16 years + since I paid any UK contributions and I'm loathed to pay into a system where I can't vote for who holds the purse strings.


I only started paying into the UK system voluntarily after having worked in Spain for something like 10 years. They still let me do it, and allowed me to backdate payments for several years. I think you only need to pay in for 10 years in the UK to get something back in retirement, and 30 years to get the full state pension.

I know what you mean about "taxation without representation" but isn't that the case for us in Spain as well? Unless I take out Spanish nationality I can't vote in the Spanish national elections, and I can't vote in the UK elections either because I've been away for over 15 years. But I still pay tax in both countries (I'm not complaining BTW as it's a choice I have made and I could take out Spanish nationality if I wanted).


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Chopera said:


> I only started paying into the UK system voluntarily after having worked in Spain for something like 10 years. They still let me do it, and allowed me to backdate payments for several years. I think you only need to pay in for 10 years in the UK to get something back in retirement, and 30 years to get the full state pension.
> 
> I know what you mean about "taxation without representation" but isn't that the case for us in Spain as well? Unless I take out Spanish nationality I can't vote in the Spanish national elections, and I can't vote in the UK elections either because I've been away for over 15 years. But I still pay tax in both countries (I'm not complaining BTW as it's a choice I have made and I could take out Spanish nationality if I wanted).


Thanks for the info. You might have convinced me to look into it!! :thumb:

You've hit the nail on the head with the last sentence of the second paragraph. I can't vote in Spain, but it's my choice (or lethargy more accurately speaking) to not apply for the citizenship I am legally entitled to. 
In the UK I do not have even a legal entitlement to act on to obtain a vote (short of moving back there, which kind of defeats the object!).


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Chopera said:


> I only started paying into the UK system voluntarily after having worked in Spain for something like 10 years. They still let me do it, and allowed me to backdate payments for several years. I think you only need to pay in for 10 years in the UK to get something back in retirement, and 30 years to get the full state pension.


35 years now.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Joppa said:


> Not quite. 3.05 x 52 = £158.60 will give you an extra contribution year, so for every year you are short of full pension entitlement before you reach state retirement age (soon to rise to 66), £158.60 entitles you to 1/35 extra pension a week, or 175.20 / 35 = £5.00. If you have to pay Class 3 voluntary contribution of £15.30 a week, it's not such a good deal, unless you live many more years beyond 65/66. Break-even point is living just over 3 years longer on pension for every year's voluntary contribution.
> Also if you aren't entitled to full state pension because you have for a time been contracted out of state second pension (e.g. you were on occupational pension scheme), you can increase your state pension by paying voluntary contribution but only up to your state pension age.
> Do a state pension forecast to find out your personal circumstance.


If I have understood you correctly, with class 2 contributions, every £3.05/week you pay entitles you to £5/week state pension? Of course if you don't make it very far into retirement it might turn out to be a bad deal, but that's the nature of insurance anyway. You try to cover yourself for various eventualities, one being that you might live to 100, another being that you might die tomorrow.

As for class 3 contributions, I don't know the details as I don't pay them, but I've always assumed that those who paid them were not yet claiming the UK state pension and weren't paying into the Spanish social security system either. Usually because they had taken early retirement. So by paying the more expensive class 3 contributions, they were gaining access to the Spanish state medical care as well. But maybe I got that wrong?


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Chopera said:


> As for class 3 contributions, I don't know the details as I don't pay them, but I've always assumed that those who paid them were not yet claiming the UK state pension and weren't paying into the Spanish social security system either. Usually because they had taken early retirement. So by paying the more expensive class 3 contributions, they were gaining access to the Spanish state medical care as well. But maybe I got that wrong?


Anyone paying Class 3 voluntary NI contributions doesn't get access to Spanish state medical care until they start to receive their UK state pension, at which time they can get an S1 form and get Spanish public healthcare that way.


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

Lynn R said:


> Anyone paying Class 3 voluntary NI contributions doesn't get access to Spanish state medical care until they start to receive their UK state pension, at which time they can get an S1 form and get Spanish public healthcare that way.


Provided, of course, that they move to Spain before the end of the transition period.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

I contacted the relevant HMRC Department in Newcastle this morning as I hadn't heard anything from them after sending off my CF83 form. They confirmed that it had been received on 2nd July, the current timescale for one of their international caseworkers to deal with it is 9 weeks and I should allow another 4 weeks for their reply to reach me by international mail, so if I haven't heard anything from them in about another 3 months I should contact them again to chase it up!

So if anybody is waiting for a response, don't hold your breath. I just want to pay them some money - bet it wouldn't take that long if I owed them something.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Lynn R said:


> I contacted the relevant HMRC Department in Newcastle this morning as I hadn't heard anything from them after sending off my CF83 form. They confirmed that it had been received on 2nd July, the current timescale for one of their international caseworkers to deal with it is 9 weeks and I should allow another 4 weeks for their reply to reach me by international mail, so if I haven't heard anything from them in about another 3 months I should contact them again to chase it up!
> 
> So if anybody is waiting for a response, don't hold your breath. I just want to pay them some money - bet it wouldn't take that long if I owed them something.


Lynn you were fortunate to get a person to speak to you. All the public sector seems to be in chaos. Some have recorded messages to email them, even the Police about my speeding fine! Should be called NOT working from home. Saw yesterday that births have not been registered during lockdown. They expect shop workers to do face to face work though

I overpaid tax and received a letter but was able to claim it online and was in my bank 3 days later.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Isobella said:


> Lynn you were fortunate to get a person to speak to you. All the public sector seems to be in chaos. Some have recorded messages to email them, even the Police about my speeding fine! Should be called NOT working from home. Saw yesterday that births have not been registered during lockdown. They expect shop workers to do face to face work though


The funny (not!) thing was that one of the many recorded messages I had to listen to before getting through to somebody was "Have you confirmed your pension forecast with the DWP Future Pensions Centre?". When I had contacted them it was to hear a recorded message telling me that due to Covid19 the Future Pensions Centre was only dealing with enquiries about people who were within 3 months of their state retirement age (so not applicable to me). So I cheated and said Yes. It could all drive you mad if you let it, like something out of Kafka.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Lynn R said:


> I contacted the relevant HMRC Department in Newcastle this morning as I hadn't heard anything from them after sending off my CF83 form. They confirmed that it had been received on 2nd July, the current timescale for one of their international caseworkers to deal with it is 9 weeks and I should allow another 4 weeks for their reply to reach me by international mail, so if I haven't heard anything from them in about another 3 months I should contact them again to chase it up!
> 
> So if anybody is waiting for a response, don't hold your breath. I just want to pay them some money - bet it wouldn't take that long if I owed them something.


When trying to pay SWMBO's NICs, it normally takes 2-3 months to get a reply telling me how much she needs to pay and then another 3 months while we sorted out the errors in their calculations. This year I worked it out myself and just paid it.


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## ccm47 (Oct 15, 2013)

When making "official" type phone calls I leave it till 15.00 or later. The queue is often much shorter, and so the staff are able to take their time to give you a comprehensive reply.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Lynn R said:


> I contacted the relevant HMRC Department in Newcastle this morning as I hadn't heard anything from them after sending off my CF83 form. They confirmed that it had been received on 2nd July, the current timescale for one of their international caseworkers to deal with it is 9 weeks and I should allow another 4 weeks for their reply to reach me by international mail, so if I haven't heard anything from them in about another 3 months I should contact them again to chase it up!
> 
> So if anybody is waiting for a response, don't hold your breath. I just want to pay them some money - bet it wouldn't take that long if I owed them something.


I was lucky - the reply I was waiting for from HMRC about paying some additional years of voluntary class 3 NI contributions arrived today, so rather faster than it might have been.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Just to report that I made a payment for 4 years' worth of voluntary Class 3 contributions a few weeks ago, by bank transfer from my UK account. Having allowed time for records to be updated, I've just checked my pension forecast again and it has increased by the correct amount (I had 35 years of Class 1 contributions already, but had been contracted out for most of my working life so wanted to take the opportunity to increase my state pension). All I have to do now is live long enough to get all the money back!


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Lynn R said:


> Just to report that I made a payment for 4 years' worth of voluntary Class 3 contributions a few weeks ago, by bank transfer from my UK account. Having allowed time for records to be updated, I've just checked my pension forecast again and it has increased by the correct amount (I had 35 years of Class 1 contributions already, but had been contracted out for most of my working life so wanted to take the opportunity to increase my state pension). All I have to do now is live long enough to get all the money back!


That's precisely what I did. I had a small window of about 2 years before hitting 65 (pension age at that time) of making additional NI contributions to bolster my state pension. As I had been self-employed, I only needed to pay Class 2 contribution of around £3 a week or £156 a year for a couple of years or around £312. For that extra contribution, I am getting around £9 a week more in pension, so it's win-win all the way.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Refloating this due to me finally getting round to doing something about my future.

Firstly, a big thanks to Chopera who inspired me to try to get both a full Spanish and a full UK state pension as it seems that both are indeed within reach for me (just). I owe you a pint!

So I am going to put this out there to invite comments and to check if I am understanding this correctly:

I have 13 years contributions in the UK, last year being 2004/5.
I can contribute voluntarily (class 2) until retirement age (UK) which would be 20 years more if I start now (I am 47).
I would need to make two years class 3 contributions to get a full UK pension (assuming I keep contributing until I retire under class 2 payments).
I have until 2025 to make up the 2 years (being the last two unfilled years being the last to be "closed").
I have to send off the CF83 form to apply for class 2 payments.

Concerns:

The current rate of class 2 contributions is low at around 15GBP per month, but I guess we should factor in an increase, likely in excess of inflation.
UK retirement age is under review and is likely to edge towards 70 in the future (which would mean that my class 3 contributions would have been a waste of money as if I had until 69 to make the class 2 payments I would save money.
UK pension payable in the EU is currently subject to adjustment, but how long will that last?

Questions:

Are the class 2 contributions deductable on my Spanish tax return? (I guess not but you never know!)


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Overandout said:


> Refloating this due to me finally getting round to doing something about my future.
> 
> Firstly, a big thanks to Chopera who inspired me to try to get both a full Spanish and a full UK state pension as it seems that both are indeed within reach for me (just). I owe you a pint!


De nada 


Overandout said:


> So I am going to put this out there to invite comments and to check if I am understanding this correctly:
> 
> I have 13 years contributions in the UK, last year being 2004/5.
> I can contribute voluntarily (class 2) until retirement age (UK) which would be 20 years more if I start now (I am 47).
> ...


Yes the contributions do go up, but not by huge amounts. I think the future retirement age is a bridge to cross when you get there. Will it make that much of a difference anyway if you are a couple of years short? Also I think any future increases in retirement age are unlikely to affect people over 50 anyway. They usually forward date them so most of the people affected by the increase are too young to be that bothered by it. 

It has never occured to me to deduct UK pension contributions from my Spanish tax return. I think it's hghly unlikely the Spanish government would allow it.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

The whole point of pensions is that they are tax efficient... if I was contributing to a private pension the contributions would be deductible. As far as Spain is concerned, a UK state pension is "private" in that it is not the Spanish state system and it is voluntary.... I might be stretching this a bit maybe....

On a more practical note, the CF83 form asks for my UK address! Does anyone know if I have to put in the last address I lived at or can I leave it blank given that I do not have any address in the UK?


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

I think for an investment to count as being a private pension in Spain it needs to be more than just not being the Spanish state pension. For example it needs to be registered with the Spanish regulator (CNMV)...






CNMV - Listado completo de fondos de inversión de carácter financiero o FI armonizados







www.cnmv.es





That said, there's no harm in asking a gestor, just in case.

On the form I would put your last UK address in case they want to check that you lived there. Maybe leave a note saying you no longer live there? I get all my correspondence from them sent directly to Spain so provided you clearly indicate your correspondence address in Spain, you should be ok.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Thanks Chopera!


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## londoner111 (4 mo ago)

Overandout said:


> Refloating this due to me finally getting round to doing something about my future.
> 
> Firstly, a big thanks to Chopera who inspired me to try to get both a full Spanish and a full UK state pension as it seems that both are indeed within reach for me (just). I owe you a pint!
> 
> ...


Hi Overandout,

I am in a very similar situation. I've contributed for 10 years in the UK, and I've moved to Spain just a week ago (I am working for a Spanish company).
While trying to find some information about paying voluntary contributions (I haven't contributed enough for 1 year), I found this thread. And I'm very interested about paying the voluntary (class 2) until retirement age (UK). But I don't understand this line:
"I would need to make two years class 3 contributions to get a full UK pension (assuming I keep contributing until I retire under class 2 payments)."

Would anyone help me to clarify this point, please? Why Overandout needs to pay class 2 every year until retirement + 2 years of class 3? Are there a minimum of class 3 yearly payments to quality for the full state pension?

Thanks!


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## dancingspider (Mar 4, 2018)

I rang the UK government pensions people and they really were very helpful. They explained the options for payments and the implications. This was with regard to class 2 versus class 3 payments. Also, by going online you can get a UK state pension forecast.


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## MataMata (Nov 30, 2008)

Out with any obligation for the first year it's my understanding that if you leave UK to work abroad, as opposed to being posted or seconded by a UK employer, you cease to be eligible to pay UK NI.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7894/

Working in Spain you will be contributing to the Spanish social system and you cannot contribute in two places at the same time the principal being that you should not be allowed to fully benefit from two different state pensions at the same time which is why when you retire you are supposed to claim your pension in the country in which you last paid social security then that country will liase with others you have worked in to determine how much you get from each.


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## Ilovepatnevin (Feb 26, 2009)

MataMata said:


> Out with any obligation for the first year it's my understanding that if you leave UK to work abroad, as opposed to being posted or seconded by a UK employer, you cease to be eligible to pay UK NI.
> 
> https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7894/
> 
> Working in Spain you will be contributing to the Spanish social system and you cannot contribute in two places at the same time the principal being that you should not be allowed to fully benefit from two different state pensions at the same time which is why when you retire you are supposed to claim your pension in the country in which you last paid social security then that country will liase with others you have worked in to determine how much you get from each.


I'm not sure you are correct about this. I've been working in Spain for over 15 years and I pay into both the Spanish and Brtish systems. My Spanish wife has also been doing so.
Equally, I've had meetings at the INSS which confirm that I will receive both British and Spanish pensions separately (the British one will be paid eight months before the Spanish). I use "meetings" in the plural because, like you, I thought one can only receive a single pension. However, two different meetings, with two different funcionarios, told me the same - I will receive two separate pensions.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

londoner111 said:


> Hi Overandout,
> 
> I am in a very similar situation. I've contributed for 10 years in the UK, and I've moved to Spain just a week ago (I am working for a Spanish company).
> While trying to find some information about paying voluntary contributions (I haven't contributed enough for 1 year), I found this thread. And I'm very interested about paying the voluntary (class 2) until retirement age (UK). But I don't understand this line:
> ...


Hi londoner111,

I asked for a prediction of my UK pension based on my contributions made prior to leaving the UK and then based on me paying class 2 contributions from 2022 until I retire. That second forecast showed that I would reach somewhere around 97% of a full UK pension at retirement age. The difference to bring it up to 100% would need to be made by making 2 class 3 contributions (but these are time limited and must relate to 2 years which did not count to a pension contribution, logically the last two years before I stated paying Class 2 contributions as they are the years for which I have longer to pay).
Class 3 contributions are more expensive than class 2 (I suppose the logic being that they are retrospective) and I have not yet made any class 3 payments, I need to make a decision very soon!

There is no issue with contributing to both the UK and Spanish systems as far as I am aware, I have just read the document linked to by MataMata but I don't share the conclusions reached.


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## 1kaipa (Jul 20, 2019)

I also pay voluntary class 2 towards uk pension but work in Spain so pay into Spanish system. I have been told that I will receive a uk pension and a small Spanish one provided I work the last 3 years before pensionable age in Spain. So not sure why people are saying you can't be paying into 2 systems- I only did it as DWP told me that I should maintain contributions when I moved to Spain.


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## londoner111 (4 mo ago)

Overandout said:


> Hi londoner111,
> 
> I asked for a prediction of my UK pension based on my contributions made prior to leaving the UK and then based on me paying class 2 contributions from 2022 until I retire. That second forecast showed that I would reach somewhere around 97% of a full UK pension at retirement age. The difference to bring it up to 100% would need to be made by making 2 class 3 contributions (but these are time limited and must relate to 2 years which did not count to a pension contribution, logically the last two years before I stated paying Class 2 contributions as they are the years for which I have longer to pay).
> Class 3 contributions are more expensive than class 2 (I suppose the logic being that they are retrospective) and I have not yet made any class 3 payments, I need to make a decision very soon!
> ...



Thanks for replying!

I will call them as well and find out if I should pay class 3 for the only year I have not contributed enough. And I guess they will tell me I can also pay voluntary class 2 in the future. (Which is totally worth it!)



1kaipa said:


> I also pay voluntary class 2 towards uk pension but work in Spain so pay into Spanish system. I have been told that I will receive a uk pension and a small Spanish one provided I work the last 3 years before pensionable age in Spain. So not sure why people are saying you can't be paying into 2 systems- I only did it as DWP told me that I should maintain contributions when I moved to Spain.


Thanks for your message too!


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## dancingspider (Mar 4, 2018)

"Working in Spain you will be contributing to the Spanish social system and you cannot contribute in two places at the same time the principal being that you should not be allowed to fully benefit from two different state pensions at the same time which is why when you retire you are supposed to claim your pension in the country in which you last paid social security then that country will liase with others you have worked in to determine how much you get from each."


Two statements here....

1) I contribute to two state pensions at the same time.
2) drawing two state pensions at the same time.


Chapter and verse on where it says you can't do this, or are you simply speculating?


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## MataMata (Nov 30, 2008)

From the full version of the document I linked to:

(p16)
One country only: Union citizens who have exercised their free movement rights are covered by the system of one Member State at a time, and pay contributions in one country only.

(p17)
DWP Decision Makers’ Guide explains that, in general, a person is insured in only one European Economic Area country for any period: 
In general a person is insured in only one European Economic Area country for any period. A person cannot therefore use insurance from one period to obtain entitlement to benefits of the same kind (see DMG 070570) from two different countries.33


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## MataMata (Nov 30, 2008)

Ilovepatnevin said:


> two different meetings, with two different funcionarios, told me the same - I will receive two separate pensions.


Yes, but pro rata from UK and Spain.

You could be wasting your UK contributions, making them and being entitled to make them are two different things!

If it's found that you were not entitled then probably the best you will get is a refund of payments.


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## lard_ascending (Sep 16, 2020)

I made voluntary NI contributions whilst working in Spain. I know people who are doing it now.

I receive two state pensions which are treated separately. 

Social Security abroad: NI38 which is current.

Clearly it is not possible to contribute to a random country's Social Security systems but if you have a history of contributions to the UK system then you can continue paying after you leave. It is a very good offer and well worth the money.


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