# Tourists



## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

I am horrified at the photographs in this link. 
thegizafoundation.org
These poor horses are ridden by tourists and I for one will do what I can to put put people of riding them. 
If Egypt is really wanting it's tourist industry back then it has to get it's act together and stop this outright cruelty.


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## Cairo Cathy (Nov 19, 2011)

MaidenScotland said:


> I am horrified at the photographs in this link.
> thegizafoundation.org
> These poor horses are ridden by tourists and I for one will do what I can to put put people of riding them.
> If Egypt is really wanting it's tourist industry back then it has to get it's act together and stop this outright cruelty.


You should print these into posters and put them up in Tahrir today.
Huge posters in the middle of Tahrir and say where these animals are kept.


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## Sands Of Time (Nov 29, 2011)

Cairo Cathy said:


> You should print these into posters and put them up in Tahrir today.
> Huge posters in the middle of Tahrir and say where these animals are kept.


.............................................................................................................

Greetings everyone,

_(Expats and Tourists in Cairo please be aware of the following issue_)

Thank you to the members who have posted to follow the story we have opened on our humanitarian site. The animal situation in Egypt and in particular Cairo, is DIRE and set to get much worse! However as our latest report indicates, the long term solution will not be delivered in anger. 

For as much as we want to throttle those who commit these animal atrocities, the solution lies in the initiatives we have discussed with the Brooke Hospital in Cairo, with many good locals, and which we have independently adopted to our own aims.

Right now there is a practical message we want to reach all tourists in particular to do with riding horses. Do not use horses for rides which do not pass simple inspection. eg...

If they are lathered
If they LOOK exhausted.
If they are skin and bone
If they have whip marks
If they have ANY signs of injury
If they look dehydrated
If the tack looks shoddy
If they are not adjusted from a slack saddle
If they are not shod
If their hoofs look distorted
If the horse guide is harsh.

The signs of abuse are so damned obvious, but so many times we have been sickened by blind or ignorant tourists who are bouncing along with a big grin on their faces; with their saddle slipping to the side of skin stretched over bone. It is often so obvious their steed has been abused, and it does not have to be so.

For all the emotive bad cases we have seen, there are many good stable owners with good animals. It just takes discernment, common sense and compassion when choosing, and a will to equal the tourist bullying sales technique which seems to be the norm.

Then if an animal is selected, absolutely INSIST the stirrups are adjusted so you are not riding with slack or crushed legs. Ideally ask your local patron or guide to find a animal for you, but SPELL IT OUT TO THEM that you will NOT ride any animal that does not meet with these common sense standards. Locals know full well which stables keep animals in better condition even if it does cost a few bucks more to hire them.

These are all immediate measures for the traveller.
But the long term solutions are discussed well in our latest report. This covers education in the schools, changes in the Law, the provision of a rapid response Veterinary ambulance, support for free food and medicines, better facilities and a long term plan - which includes the needs of animal owners and their animals.

Before the formation of The Giza Foundation and over more than the last decade, Judith and I intervened privately on our multiple working visits to Cairo to try and help where we could. When tourism collapsed and we lost the offer of a huge corporate donation to help with our work because we were not incorporated. We were choked and decided it was time for us to get serious!

The Giza Foundation will shortly be as legal an entity in Cairo as it is in the UK. All details are on site, and now we are serious about the Donations we need to make the real changes happen... And if anyone is still sniffing at the strength of our cause and passion I challenge you to remain unaffected after you visit our site - to read the dreadful stories and view the horrifying pictures. Some of those who rode a horse recently in Cairo will have been sitting on saddles - on the backs of the raw meat of the animals we show in our pictures!
(And we have just shown a few lead pics so far. There will be galleries to follow.)

Right now we ask in the name of animal humanity, either spread the word through all of your lists PLEASE... or make the effort to Donate as little or as much as you can to directly become a part of solution yourselves. 

Such unacceptable animal practices cannot possibly be allowed to continue in a civilised world
Please help us to make the difference.

Blessings
Richard and Judith.
...................................................
As a new member we have not achieved the full privilege to post our necessary site link. I hope the site moderators will be merciful to allow the following representation of it stretched apart, and maybe also offer the kindness of a properly presented link on our behalf... Thank you

www . the giza foundation . org

....................................................
(Our primary research site is linked within)


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## Whitedesert (Oct 9, 2011)

Sands Of Time said:


> .............................................................................................................
> 
> Greetings everyone,
> 
> ...


 Firstly, great work Richard and Judith, but the real challenge here dont start at the horse and the tourist. It starts in the basic fabric of society. Without a doubt, (and this expression did not originate with me) we can judge a society's level of civilisation by how they care for their animals. It is terrible in Egypt and that is a simple fact statement. The challenge is to change society at this basic level, and that must be done. In tandem we must ask tourists not to take part in these activities AT ALL, until it has been proven that a satisfactory overall level of care is being taken, not just of the horses and camels used for tourismn, but in the streets of Cairo itself. We should not tolerate the abuse of animals in any way, there is no degrees of acceptance. I have never accepted to make use of these "services" even when the animals appeared to be well taken care of, and have discouraged my visitors to do the same. I want them all to be taken care of, and I want the local community to collectively share that responsibility, and until that happens I am not partaking. I feel quite strongly about this.


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

Whitedesert said:


> Firstly, great work Richard and Judith, but the real challenge here dont start at the horse and the tourist. It starts in the basic fabric of society. Without a doubt, (and this expression did not originate with me) we can judge a society's level of civilisation by how they care for their animals. It is terrible in Egypt and that is a simple fact statement. The challenge is to change society at this basic level, and that must be done. In tandem we must ask tourists not to take part in these activities AT ALL, until it has been proven that a satisfactory overall level of care is being taken, not just of the horses and camels used for tourismn, but in the streets of Cairo itself. We should not tolerate the abuse of animals in any way, there is no degrees of acceptance. I have never accepted to make use of these "services" even when the animals appeared to be well taken care of, and have discouraged my visitors to do the same. I want them all to be taken care of, and I want the local community to collectively share that responsibility, and until that happens I am not partaking. I feel quite strongly about this.




Well said.:clap2:
I am a horse lover and have kept horses over the years so this is a subject close to my heart. however I do not approve and have voiced my concerns when shelters etc buy the starved mistreated horse from the owner as I believe that tells the owners.. buy a horse, starve it and beat it daily until it can hardly stand as a charity will come along and pay good money..and they do ask for huge amounts of money and you can go out and buy another one and the circle continues. As cruel as it sounds I feel it would be much better to have the animal humanely put to sleep, offer to put the animal out of it's misery for free but never ever buy the animal.. you just open up a market. 
Tourist stables should be bribed. Lets us check your horses on a monthly basis and providing your animals are fed, clean and well treated we will in turn put you on our recommend list and pass that on to tour guides, holiday firm. travel sites etc.. if you are not on that list you will find yourself on our black list..

You quoted Ghandi.. and I agree with the sentiments but it does make me wonder if animal cruelty is so bad here because the old regime did not care about the poor man trying to feed his family or even if he was able to feed them. Why should I worry about my horse/donkey/ass/dog/cow etc when no one worries about me maybe the the thinking behind the man with the big stick.


Maiden


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## Sands Of Time (Nov 29, 2011)

MaidenScotland said:


> Well said.:clap2:
> I am a horse lover and have kept horses over the years so this is a subject close to my heart. however I do not approve and have voiced my concerns when shelters etc buy the starved mistreated horse from the owner as I believe that tells the owners.. buy a horse, starve it and beat it daily until it can hardly stand as a charity will come along and pay good money..and they do ask for huge amounts of money and you can go out and buy another one and the circle continues. As cruel as it sounds I feel it would be much better to have the animal humanely put to sleep, offer to put the animal out of it's misery for free but never ever buy the animal.. you just open up a market.
> Tourist stables should be bribed. Lets us check your horses on a monthly basis and providing your animals are fed, clean and well treated we will in turn put you on our recommend list and pass that on to tour guides, holiday firm. travel sites etc.. if you are not on that list you will find yourself on our black list..
> 
> ...


Thank you sincerely Whitedesert and maiden for your replies.
Just to let you know I will respond with more detail later today when more time allows.

& P.S. Our apology to the moderation for our novice infringement of the rules for posting. We respect the need for these and will be more vigilant in future.
Thank you

Blessings
Richard


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## Whitedesert (Oct 9, 2011)

Sands Of Time said:


> Thank you sincerely Whitedesert and maiden for your replies.
> Just to let you know I will respond with more detail later today when more time allows.
> 
> & P.S. Our apology to the moderation for our novice infringement of the rules for posting. We respect the need for these and will be more vigilant in future.
> ...


Richard, if you want help in the form of funding (I am already overcommitted on my time for charity work) I am happy to contribute, but I must tell you not for dealing with the results of abuse to animals. If you have initiatives that deal with addressing the root causes and provides direct results (either education or maybe the white/black list situation referred to by Maiden), then you can count me on-board.


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## Cairo Cathy (Nov 19, 2011)

Whitedesert said:


> Firstly, great work Richard and Judith, but the real challenge here dont start at the horse and the tourist. It starts in the basic fabric of society. Without a doubt, (and this expression did not originate with me) we can judge a society's level of civilisation by how they care for their animals. It is terrible in Egypt and that is a simple fact statement. The challenge is to change society at this basic level, and that must be done. In tandem we must ask tourists not to take part in these activities AT ALL, until it has been proven that a satisfactory overall level of care is being taken, not just of the horses and camels used for tourismn, but in the streets of Cairo itself. We should not tolerate the abuse of animals in any way, there is no degrees of acceptance. I have never accepted to make use of these "services" even when the animals appeared to be well taken care of, and have discouraged my visitors to do the same. I want them all to be taken care of, and I want the local community to collectively share that responsibility, and until that happens I am not partaking. I feel quite strongly about this.


Very good post

No one should use these animals until the owners care for them properly.

The camels are taken care of much more because of their value. If you must ride an animal you should choose a camel. 
Never ride any donkeys or horses or caleche.


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## Sands Of Time (Nov 29, 2011)

Whitedesert said:


> Richard, if you want help in the form of funding (I am already overcommitted on my time for charity work) I am happy to contribute, but I must tell you not for dealing with the results of abuse to animals. If you have initiatives that deal with addressing the root causes and provides direct results (either education or maybe the white/black list situation referred to by Maiden), then you can count me on-board.


.............................................................
Very incisive points are being raised by everyone and deserve a serious response from us. Animals are intrinsic to a huge section of Egyptian society and by default therefore, so too is their welfare. Expats, tourists or frequent workers with a foot in another country, suffer or gain in some way up the chain - from things working badly or working better than before. Right now during the people's revolution, the working animal situation is far worse and set to get much darker.

WhiteDesert you are looking for the measures to provide long term solutions and therefore I need to be specific about our intentions and the liaison we have instigated not only with the Brooke Hospital but other animal groups in due course. I quote you this small section from our own report:
................................................................................

We discussed our ideas, observations with those of the Brooke Hospital. It was clear immediately we agreed on a number of specific initiatives.

Some days earlier we interviewed a young but well spoken Egyptian on the Plateau. He was maybe about 19 years old but surprised us with his wisdom. He offered this about the animals.

_Many people in the village live with their animals in their houses. It is like a throwback to ancient times. But Egyptians have forgotten the values we had during Phaoronic times. They have forgotten how to treat and care for animals properly and get the best from looking after them with love. The young could be educated in the right way in school, but for the older people; they would have to be given an incentive, maybe cash, or also a change in the law to require them to adopt some better practices. Better still for the culture to be revived according to the teachings of the Qur'an and a return to the values of previous times._

We agree! And we discussed these points with Dr Naoum.

(The Brook had already instigated a programme of re-education in the schools).
We will become involved with supporting this initiative in the future.

Where able at base level we will continue to support the direct funding of medication and food for cases we encounter.

We pledge to carry out more intense animal survey work to sharpen the focus of help in future.

We will lobby at all levels to confirm or squash speculations such as we have reported. {ref full report for details}
(Clearly there is a lot of alarm and dispondency due simply to a lack of communication between the authorities and the villagers).

We will lobby also alongside the Brooke and others for changes in the Law to improve animal administration. Our interviews have clearly shown that Veterinary experts do not have sufficient Legal powers of enforcement now.

Finally and most importantly we are setting ourselves a target to provide a Giza Foundation rapid response - Veterinary Ambulance which will be voluntarily run by local veterinary doctors on a rota basis.
.....................................................................

We have also had many discussions for a plan which touches on your suggestion (CairoCathy) Potentially this may be implemented in conjunction with a plan through travel companies for example to educate tourists, while at the same time issuing identification tack as a licence of the inspection and compliance of animal owners through veterinary inspections.

Basically, there would be compliance inspections and improved standards, leading to some kind of visible identification of the fact for the animal (an animal passport licence?) required (by new Law) to be shown to potential customers.
Advice to tourists ONLY EVER to use proved animals
Owners would be educated to the fact that their customers will cease if they and their their animals do not pass the criteria.

Otherwise, and to pick up on earlier points raised by WhiteDesert. If there was an immediate campaign resulting in no tourists using animals, there would be an immediate tenfold worsening of the situation now, with animals being worked through atrocity to their deaths and ignominiously being dumped to choke the streets even more out of Cairo. This is not the solution. The situation is very bad, but we have to take what is there and work to make it better. General euthanasia would likewise only legalise the slaughter, (Re Maiden) Free euthanasia IS offered to animals which are beyond help; as are medicines and free grass supplement by rota to struggling animals.

Pro actively spreading the word is clearly also of vital importance.

All this has to be considered before even touching on the potentially catastrophic result for animals by the temporarily dormant Giza Site Rehabilitation Plan (Re full report) ... and for the obscene practices with other animal like the indiscriminate- illegal administrative use of strychnine meat for dogs.

The problems will not be solved in a day. Those individuals who have already established help practices have their resources predominantly tied up with the hands-on work. We are involved at this level too, but our mission is to campaign higher in the ways indicated to effect a reversal of falling values, conditioned by years of declining society. It has to start somewhere, and as the fabric of corruption meets its nemesis through the people's change, perhaps 'enough is enough' will extend to animals too if we support these initiatives right now.
We hope and pray that the world agrees.

Blessings
Richard and Judith.
.....................................................................
P.S. Judith and I smiled at a likely Synchronicity if I have got it right (Maiden Scotland) You hail from the Granite City where I was brought up (more years ago than I care to remember)


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