# Energy costs SW France?



## Knowsley

Hello everyone. 

I’m probably going to ask a question that for long time members has been asked many, many times before…..so apologies in advance.

To keep things simple, we are looking down the route of a carte de sejour / non working visa and meet the requirements for this (including “sufficient economic means”).

However, having lived in a 1980s barn conversion in the UK that was poorly insulated we have a real sense of walking around in the winter in jumpers etc.

So I’m really asking that it we moved to live in a traditional stone house from between Angloumare to Toulouse are we going to be freezing with electric heating between early December and end February? And damp?

Also is more expensive per kWh than Oil? I know gas tends to be cheaper than both and wood cheapest still?

I know the answer going forward is going to be an air source heat pump possibly supplemented by solar panels…..it’s just finding a property in the area we like which is priced appropriately.

Again, any insight or experience greatLy appreciated.

👍


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## wvdthree

Knowsley said:


> Hello everyone.
> 
> I’m probably going to ask a question that for long time members has been asked many, many times before…..so apologies in advance.
> 
> To keep things simple, we are looking down the route of a carte de sejour / non working visa and meet the requirements for this (including “sufficient economic means”).
> 
> However, having lived in a 1980s barn conversion in the UK that was poorly insulated we have a real sense of walking around in the winter in jumpers etc.
> 
> So I’m really asking that it we moved to live in a traditional stone house from between Angloumare to Toulouse are we going to be freezing with electric heating between early December and end February? And damp?
> 
> Also is more expensive per kWh than Oil? I know gas tends to be cheaper than both and wood cheapest still?
> 
> I know the answer going forward is going to be an air source heat pump possibly supplemented by solar panels…..it’s just finding a property in the area we like which is priced appropriately.
> 
> Again, any insight or experience greatLy appreciated.
> 
> 👍


Smart question. As one regular on this forum has pointed out, "one of the most important questions to ask in France when looking at possible homes for purchase is, how is it going to be heated?". And fuel oil (fioul) is being phased out in the coming years from what I understand. Smart to look towards solar and heat pumps.


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## BackinFrance

https://www.lesfurets.com/energie/fioul



Stone houses are notoriously difficult to heat, insulate and protect from damp.


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## Befuddled

Amen to that. I live in one, in Brittany. Double whammy.
Never again.


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## Knowsley

Thanks both.

I know temperatures / the climate are often talk about again but is their any benefit of living in Toulouse vs when it comes to temperatures (shorter warmer winters) or do you just use more electricity for air con during baking hot summers?


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## BackinFrance

Sécheresse : la production nucléaire ralentie


La chaleur et le manque d’eau ont contraint EDF à réduire sa production d’électricité, parce que les centrales nucléaires utilisent l’eau des fleuves pour refroidir leur circuit. Au-delà de 30 °C, elles ne peuvent plus le faire.




www.francetvinfo.fr


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## rynd2it

If the house you buy is not already heated then your choices are limited, new oil & gas installations are banned. Budget for €20,000 gross for the air-source heat pump and something similar to add enough solar photovoltaic. There are incentives available for the heat pump (Ma Renov and CEE) and the amount is dependant on your last tax return RFR value. There are no incentives for solar according to the local RGE-approved installers.


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## Crabtree

You could also look at wood burners or wood fired central heating and/or pellet systems(but the latter have never been my favourite)


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## LFBEUSTON

I live 25K south of Biarritz and 15K inland from St Jean de Luz in a large house around 30 years old which is insulated but probably not to the requirements of today. Even down here where the winters are not hard heating is still the most expensive outlay. I have gas central heating (citern not town gas) I have an insert which is regularly used throughout the winter and from time to time I use a petrol heater or an electric heater for quick, small heating requirements. The bottom line is that it still gets cold down in the S.W.!!
Using electric only as a heating source is almost certainly, given the current crisis, going to be horrendously expensive. Oil will almost certainly become very expensive and gas prices will increase. That leaves wood!! I buy around €700 worth of wood a year, gas is just under €2000 a year includes cooking and showers etc but the by far heating is mostly responsible for that cost. Electric and petrol heating possibly runs out , at a guess, around €500. So here in the 'warm' S.E. I spend, depending on the weather of course, around €2000-€2500 on heating alone.
I'm careful with regards heating and it's not on, or a fire burning, all day long!! In fact I'm quite miserly especially when it come to gas!!
As for only between December and February!! My heating usually starts mid October and can last through to April/May!!! You are obviously made of tougher stuff than me!!


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## SPGW

hello Knowsley, hard to advise - the "SW" is a vast area and I couldn't find Angloumare on google maps. Some parts have pretty rigorous winters but generally not as cold/damp as UK. Dampness is very dependent on property location, orientation etc. To generalise, you will need less heating in the Toulouse area than in the UK, a traditional stone house is not more difficult to keep warm (60cm thick stone walls retain heat once warmed up, and in my experience, you will never need aircon in a traditionally built house - our US and UK visitors in both the Touraine and the Lot have appreciated the coolness indoors during heatwaves). I would go with advice above; retain a 20K€ budget in your purchase to install a heat pump and supplement with a wood burner - not pellets.


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## Poloss

For Angloumare read Angoulême?

We've lived in many, many stone houses - mainly in the SE but also half a dozen in the SW.
Cold and damp seeps into the walls when uninhabited and it can take 2 or 3 days of intense heating to chase it out.
Traditional stone houses often have small openings for doors and windows which can make them dark and gloomy inside during the winer months when skies are grey.
People spent most of their time working outdoors so there was no need for huge windows.
I prefer wood fired central heating installations preferably with cast iron radiators which weigh tons but stay warm a long while.
I can understand people wanting to own a big house like 150 or 200 sq meters with the idea to invite friends etc but it's essential to have the basics grouped close together: kitchen, bathroom, living room and a bedroom so easy to heat and maintain. Then again, you can always shut down with a thick door, panel or curtain the parts of the house not needed in cold weather 

High ceilings, flagstone floors and uninsulated attics are going to hike up the energy bill which is ok if you have oak/beech/chestnut forests on your back doorstep and an army of helping hands. 
Check out sunshine too; some places look divine in the early afternoon but if a hill puts you in the shadows at 4pm in July, well imagine in the winter!

It's a question of: "who's the boss?"
What proportion of your money, time and energy are you willing to consecrate to the upkeep of your house in return for a reasonable amount of comfort and relaxation.
We've lived in some pretty dire conditions in the 80s but 40 years on bodies are older and we're done with trying to make silk purses from a sow's ear.


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## SPGW

Absolutely - I was assuming the place was not going to be left unoccupied for long periods…but a permanent residence. And yes, worth considering who will be log-splitting when you’re in your 90s.


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## bradders2175

Having installed a solar hot water system 14 years ago, that was the most economic and best improvement I have done. In September 2011, we had solar pv installed, selling the excess energy back to EDF. However, at the time we had an excellent FIT (feed in tariff) which has paid for the system and given us cheaper electricity. But pound for pound, the solar hot water was the best investment. When our contract with EDF comes to an end in 2031 if we are still here, I'd install a battery to try to be less reliant upon the grid, as we won't get anywhere near the return from EDF that we do now, if they even bother to make an offer.
In your situation, I would spend the money on making the house as well insulated as possible. However, with a stone house, it has to breath, otherwise you'll have damp problems. The problems with stone houses begin when people try to modernise them. They end up with a secure, draft proof house, but with nowhere for moisture to go.
The other option, would be to build a wooden house. There are various Scandinavian companies that produce beautiful houses, that are cheaper than you think and made for extreme temperatures.


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## Lalla

Some years ago I was interested in building a passive house and investigated masonry stoves such as those sold by Tulikivi and Nunnauunni. Made of soapstone, you burn a fire for an hour, say, the soapstone casing of the stove absorbs the heat and releases it slowly over hours like a storage heater. More expensive to buy, but supposed to use less wood. Another possibility is far-infrared heaters. Runs on electric so may not be as cost effective now with electricity price hikes. Just another couple of options out there depending on your requirements.


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## SPGW

bradders2175 said:


> Having installed a solar hot water system 14 years ago, that was the most economic and best improvement I have done. In September 2011, we had solar pv installed, selling the excess energy back to EDF. However, at the time we had an excellent FIT (feed in tariff) which has paid for the system and given us cheaper electricity. But pound for pound, the solar hot water was the best investment. When our contract with EDF comes to an end in 2031 if we are still here, I'd install a battery to try to be less reliant upon the grid, as we won't get anywhere near the return from EDF that we do now, if they even bother to make an offer.
> In your situation, I would spend the money on making the house as well insulated as possible. However, with a stone house, it has to breath, otherwise you'll have damp problems. The problems with stone houses begin when people try to modernise them. They end up with a secure, draft proof house, but with nowhere for moisture to go.
> The other option, would be to build a wooden house. There are various Scandinavian companies that produce beautiful houses, that are cheaper than you think and made for extreme temperatures.


Very useful thanks. Do you have any recommended makes of solar panels ? ( both water heaters and photovoltaic). Did you need permission for the pv system? Did it have to be on the roof? I ask because our property would not be suited to a roof installation but there’s no end of south facing meadow…our local ‘eco’ chauffagiste isn’t too positive about proposing anything solar ‘until they become more efficient’.


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## SPGW

Lalla said:


> Some years ago I was interested in building a passive house and investigated masonry stoves such as those sold by Tulikivi and Nunnauunni. Made of soapstone, you burn a fire for an hour, say, the soapstone casing of the stove absorbs the heat and releases it slowly over hours like a storage heater. More expensive to buy, but supposed to use less wood. Another possibility is far-infrared heaters. Runs on electric so may not be as cost effective now with electricity price hikes. Just another couple of options out there depending on your requirements.


Fully agree. The Swedish soapstone wood burners are worth the higher cost. Burns hotter slower and more efficiently (less polluting, less wood consumption) than traditional cast iron stoves.


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## bradders2175

SPGW said:


> Very useful thanks. Do you have any recommended makes of solar panels ? ( both water heaters and photovoltaic). Did you need permission for the pv system? Did it have to be on the roof? I ask because our property would not be suited to a roof installation but there’s no end of south facing meadow…our local ‘eco’ chauffagiste isn’t too positive about proposing anything solar ‘until they become more efficient’.


Hi,
Navitron was the company that I obtained the solar hot water system from. The panels were Chinese. Navitron closed down a couple of years ago. I do not know why. You are now directed to stovesandsolar.com They appear to sell the same type of equipment that I bought from Navitron. They also run a training course for installing at the same venue. The course isn't rocket science. It's one day and if you are a reasonably happy diyer, it'll be a breeze. I actually wasn't that confident in connecting up my oil boiler to the system and paid a plumber friend to assist me. People might turn their nose up at a Chinese product, but the evacuated tube system that I have is as good as any other, but cheaper. 
During the years it's been installed, I top up the anti-freeze liquid from time to time. One fuse on the temperature differential controller blew. That put the system down for a few days until the new one arrived. I bought two just in case, but haven't needed another as yet. One circulation pump was replaced and over the period two of the glass tubes as they fogged up.
Now, I had the system mounted on the roof because I thought it would be the best place as it is South facing. However, the pitch is only 34° or so. Ideally, it should be mounted at a pitch equalling your level of latitude. I didn't know that at the time. The system was designed for a 200 litre water tank which came with the kit. Some eight years ago, I bought a 500 litre tank, specifically designed for solar hot water. It works more efficiently than the previous tank and we've generally got 500 litres of 58C water sitting there. We probably get here in SW France, 'free' hot water for 8-9 months of the year and the rest it is pre-heated. As an example, the collector temperature on the roof on a sunny January day can exceed 50C.
The solar pv was different. It had to be roof mounted for us to be eligible for the tax rebate, which was almost €8000. You won't get that now. The downside of that was, the panels had to be integrated into the roof tiles. This has meant they don't cool like those mounted on top of the roof as in the UK. Therefore, not so efficient. A friend in the UK had a 3kwh system that generated more electricity annually than our 4kwh system, due to the roof pitch. Planning permission for renewable energy sources is almost freely given in France due to Government policy. It's obtained by the installer. So, by me for the solar hot water and by the installation company for the pv. It was a matter of filling in six copies of the forms (we had to do an extra copy for Batiment de France as we live with 500 metres of a church).
If you had a large enough area for buffer tanks of several thousand litres and a large array of solar hot water panels, you could provide enough water to heat your house, but then it might be cheaper to spend most of the money on improving the insulation!
Cleaning them isn't really necessary. I did wonder due to the proliferation of panel cleaning offers I was getting. So, one sunny day, I took a reading of the electricity being generated, then cleaned the panels. The difference was negligible, so I have never bothered since.
I hope that helps. Please feel free to ask more if required.
As an aside, we had an eco survey done (can't think of the proper name but you have to have one done when selling a house). The house, built in 1992 is fully double glazed, but with gaps which aren't up to current regulations. The rating we got was a B. I asked how we would get an A and was told it was impossible unless we had a passive house. He said the B rating was due to the solar hot water and pv as well as our underfloor heating.


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## SPGW

A great help, thankyou. I’d be up for the course, and will look them up.


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## bradders2175

SPGW said:


> A great help, thankyou. I’d be up for the course, and will look them up.


When I did it in 2007 or 8, it cost £175. I picked up my kit from them at the same time. I bought all of the copper fittings in the UK as they were much cheaper than here and from experience, more complete as parts have often been missing.
However, there was a stainless steel insulated pipe system that had just come in, that was better, as it's one continuous pipe, so less chance of a leak point. Not that that has happened. For the system, you had to buy a special crimping tool which was expensive. As I wasn't sure if anyone else would ask me to fit a system for them, I didn't bother.
What didn't come in the kit was an air release valve to fit at the collector. They said that one hadn't been manufactured that could cope with the high temperatures at the collector. When I was installing it, my plumber friend sourced me one from Germany.
I would install another if we moved as it was a good, inexpensive investment in our heating requirements.


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## BAZERD

We’ve a stone house built c1800, its cool in summer and ok in winter if the heating is kept on all the time. Jotul wood burners are great but not cheap but we think worth the investment. Getting a good supply of quality wood is essential. Humidity can create damp and mild if the house is left unoccupied for months on end. Hope this helps.


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