# San Miguel de Allende



## grotton

We are in the process of researching where we will live when we move from Seattle to Mexico. I am retiring a little earlier then average but plan to continue working in some way after making the move. We are considering Guadalajara, because my partners family lives there, Merida, because it sounds interesting, San Cristobal, again family connections, and now my partner has planted the seed to consider living in San Miguel de Allende. 

Finding accurate information about life in San Miguel de Allende on the internet is challenging. Some who are heavily invested in real estate, commerce don't seem to share an accurate perspective on the cost of real estate and status of the expat community there. I have read that the value of real estate has plummeted in the last few years and that Se Vende signs are everywhere. I wonder what this means for the future? Does anyone have thoughts on this? Is this also true for Merida?

Our plan is to arrive in GDL and live for a month with relatives; we will have access to modern house near the Buganvilias neighborhood in Zapopan. Then spend a month looking at rentals in San Miguel, and Merida to set up base camp and live for a year or so. If we like the experience we will buy a house. 

I'm trying to glean a sense of the economies in these areas, stability of the expat communities, demographics, and real estate trends. My partners family, like many Mexicans, owns various small businesses in GDL and we would probably follow suit wherever we land. 

I keep telling myself to enjoy the adventure of determining where we will live but at the same time continue to try to hedge my bets by doing research and asking for the perspectives of the wise who post on the blog. So much knowledge can't be ignored. 

Thanks for any ideas and I would appreciate people sharing their experiences and perspectives.


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## Longford

grotton said:


> We are in the process of researching where we will live when we move from Seattle to Mexico. I am retiring a little earlier then average but plan to continue working in some way after making the move. We are considering Guadalajara, because my partners family lives there, Merida, because it sounds interesting, San Cristobal, again family connections, and now my partner has planted the seed to consider living in San Miguel de Allende.
> 
> Finding accurate information about life in San Miguel de Allende on the internet is challenging. Some who are heavily invested in real estate, commerce don't seem to share an accurate perspective on the cost of real estate and status of the expat community there. I have read that the value of real estate has plummeted in the last few years and that Se Vende signs are everywhere. I wonder what this means for the future? Does anyone have thoughts on this? Is this also true for Merida?
> 
> Our plan is to arrive in GDL and live for a month with relatives; we will have access to modern house near the Buganvilias neighborhood in Zapopan. Then spend a month looking at rentals in San Miguel, and Merida to set up base camp and live for a year or so. If we like the experience we will buy a house.
> 
> I'm trying to glean a sense of the economies in these areas, stability of the expat communities, demographics, and real estate trends. My partners family, like many Mexicans, owns various small businesses in GDL and we would probably follow suit wherever we land.
> 
> I keep telling myself to enjoy the adventure of determining where we will live but at the same time continue to try to hedge my bets by doing research and asking for the perspectives of the wise who post on the blog. So much knowledge can't be ignored.
> 
> Thanks for any ideas and I would appreciate people sharing their experiences and perspectives.


I like San Miguel de Allende very much. I find it a wonderful community. There are at least two excellent web forums focusing specifically on San Miguel de Allende. You can live there, as anywhere in Mexico, expensively or at a more moderate, inexpensive level. There are trade-offs. The terms of participation of this website do not permit the linking to other such websites so I cannot provide the information here. If it's not a violation of the rules you can send me a PM, email or use your ISP search engine to find these other expats-in-SMA forums. Regarding the real estate value question: I don't believe the decline in Mexico, to the extent there may have been one, is or has been as dramatic as the decline we're seeing in so many parts of the USA and parts of Europe. Best of luck with your search and planning.


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## GordonLogan

grotton said:


> We are in the process of researching where we will live when we move from Seattle to Mexico. I am retiring a little earlier then average but plan to continue working in some way after making the move. We are considering Guadalajara, because my partners family lives there, Merida, because it sounds interesting, San Cristobal, again family connections, and now my partner has planted the seed to consider living in San Miguel de Allende.
> 
> Finding accurate information about life in San Miguel de Allende on the internet is challenging. Some who are heavily invested in real estate, commerce don't seem to share an accurate perspective on the cost of real estate and status of the expat community there. I have read that the value of real estate has plummeted in the last few years and that Se Vende signs are everywhere. I wonder what this means for the future? Does anyone have thoughts on this? Is this also true for Merida?
> 
> Our plan is to arrive in GDL and live for a month with relatives; we will have access to modern house near the Buganvilias neighborhood in Zapopan. Then spend a month looking at rentals in San Miguel, and Merida to set up base camp and live for a year or so. If we like the experience we will buy a house.
> 
> I'm trying to glean a sense of the economies in these areas, stability of the expat communities, demographics, and real estate trends. My partners family, like many Mexicans, owns various small businesses in GDL and we would probably follow suit wherever we land.
> 
> I keep telling myself to enjoy the adventure of determining where we will live but at the same time continue to try to hedge my bets by doing research and asking for the perspectives of the wise who post on the blog. So much knowledge can't be ignored.
> 
> Thanks for any ideas and I would appreciate people sharing their experiences and perspectives.


We moved from Seattle to San Miguel de Allende 10 years ago and have not regretted it for a minute. Send me an email when you arrive in San Miguel and we can have a coffee and I would be delighted to tell you why I like it here.
Gordon Logan


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## grotton

Thanks Gordon, I will do that.


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## cuylers5746

*Restless in Seattle*



grotton said:


> We are in the process of researching where we will live when we move from Seattle to Mexico. I am retiring a little earlier then average but plan to continue working in some way after making the move. We are considering Guadalajara, because my partners family lives there, Merida, because it sounds interesting, San Cristobal, again family connections, and now my partner has planted the seed to consider living in San Miguel de Allende.
> 
> Finding accurate information about life in San Miguel de Allende on the internet is challenging. Some who are heavily invested in real estate, commerce don't seem to share an accurate perspective on the cost of real estate and status of the expat community there. I have read that the value of real estate has plummeted in the last few years and that Se Vende signs are everywhere. I wonder what this means for the future? Does anyone have thoughts on this? Is this also true for Merida?
> 
> Our plan is to arrive in GDL and live for a month with relatives; we will have access to modern house near the Buganvilias neighborhood in Zapopan. Then spend a month looking at rentals in San Miguel, and Merida to set up base camp and live for a year or so. If we like the experience we will buy a house.
> 
> I'm trying to glean a sense of the economies in these areas, stability of the expat communities, demographics, and real estate trends. My partners family, like many Mexicans, owns various small businesses in GDL and we would probably follow suit wherever we land.
> 
> I keep telling myself to enjoy the adventure of determining where we will live but at the same time continue to try to hedge my bets by doing research and asking for the perspectives of the wise who post on the blog. So much knowledge can't be ignored.
> 
> Thanks for any ideas and I would appreciate people sharing their experiences and perspectives.



Hi Restless in Seattle;

Actually, I would say that you have embarked on a very sound plan of attach, and yes I would explore San Miguel de Allende (SMA) for living there for a year or two.

A little background on where my and my wife's advice is coming from. My wife of 37 years and I have lived or worked in 41 States in USA. Living with her family her Dad was a Director of Tubos de Aceros in D.F. and they had a ranch in Vera Cruz State and home in Vera Cruz, a house in D.F. and her's mom's home from the 1750's in Tepic, Nayarit and she had traveled or lived on short assignments with her dad in many major cities in Mexico. Oh, while single one time I worked for NOAAA on MS Fairweather in Alaska and ended up in Seattle, later renting with some buddies a floating house on Lake Union in Seattle. I helped open a Restaurant at White Pass Ski areas. So, we've been around the block 1 or 2 times.

I put off going to SMA for over 30-40 years, thinking we ******'s had probably ruined the place after 40-50 years of infiltration? Last year we went for 5 days after reading that delightful book about a couple of young Architects from L.A. went on vacations to visit their friends in SMA and basically bought a 200 year old run down house, fixed it up and never went home (so to speak). That's how SMA can effect you. By the way go on the Official SMA City Website and you will find the book there. Buy it and read it before you go, it will help you a lot. Unfortunately it's listed on my LapTop who's motherboard just went south. If we didn't have business and personal interests in Tepic, Nayarit my wife would demand that we relocated to SMA.

Here's the life style in a quick synophis;
1.) It's a World Heritage City and THE Jewel of Mexico. It takes quaint and pushes the word off 
the scale.
2.) Great Cafe Society, very educated populace, great tough Police Force, that can get the job
done. Several strategic Camera's in the Sky around town to keep security tight
3.) Now it even has two great new Golf Courses outside of town with spectacular views of the
downtown.
4.) A smaller/walking town. Most things are 12-13 blocks from the main town square, excepting
the homes up on the hill overlooking downtown.
5.) There are familes from 70 different nationalities that keep homes/villas here.
6.) Great Restaurants.
7.) Village type night life, as you cruise from bar/night club to the next.
8.) You or your wife can take Cooking Classes of Mexican Cuisine from 4 hours to 7 day classes
and learn to cook with some of the over 120 types of Chile in Mexico.
9.) Have Great/Fantastic Art Institutes (one huge one on outskirts of town) to learn Art.
10.)A couple of Good Museums.
11.) You'd be living in the Heart of the Revolution Belts with Hildalgo just 30 kms north and
a one in a kind city on this whole planet "Guanajuato" about 1 hour west.
12.) All this surrounded by wild rangeland, pretty much how the Spanish discovered it 400 years
ago.
13.) Discover all 3; Hildalgo, SMA, and Guanajuato and you too might love the life style in 
SMA the best.
14,) Security wise? It's off the main migration path for the Cartels to move major shipments of
of Drugs, so the violence is whole lot less there. That and only 2-3 ways in or out of town
so the Police/Military can lock the whole town down quickly if any bad action occurs.

Downsides;
1.) It's 170 miles +/- from D.F. and Mexican National Holidays and some Fiestas can become
crowed from people coming from D.F.
2.) It's up high in elevation and cool in the winter (no, that's probably a plus for people coming
from Seattle.?

Real Estate:
1.) Well you got the right game plan; 1.) Find the City/Village you know for sure you want to 
live in and rent first making sure you are right - get plugged into the locals and find the best
real deals to buy.
2.) Generally speaking R.E. in North America will not hit bottom in prices until we hit bottom of
this 240+ Year SuperCycle Depression event - around 2016-2017. So, don't get in any 
hurry, rent in various Cities/Villages and get your lifestyle down pat, then buy.
3.) Europe is in a whole World of Hurt Right now. Can probably rent an incredible Villa, keep
it up for the owners in SMA and allow them to show it to sell it. R.E. Sells SLOWLY in 
Mexico? First few people have access to the US Mortgage Market for Mexico, bigger down
payments, and most people pay cash for their homes. That takes time. Figures what ever 
you buy in Mexico (homes) might take you 2-4 years to finalize a sell.

My advice; Go for it! Like your gut said. Just step off the Planet into Mexico, absorb, enjoy,
laugh a lot, enjoy and slowly get imersed in the culture, language, cuisine and explore, explore, explore. There are so many treasures in Mexico, it's almost mind bogglying to make a choice where to live. Until you're down there here from locals, you'll never even have an inkling of an idea of such fantasic little places to explore and might want to live. Run, as if you're over 30 there's not enough time to see all the Treasures of Mexico!

Oh, I remember the good ole days when Guadalajara was only 400-500k inhabitants, now with all the suburbs it's over 9 million - too big for us.

I hope this helps.

Cuyler


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## grotton

cuylers5746 said:


> Hi Restless in Seattle;
> 
> Actually, I would say that you have embarked on a very sound plan of attach, and yes I would explore San Miguel de Allende (SMA) for living there for a year or two.
> 
> A little background on where my and my wife's advice is coming from. My wife of 37 years and I have lived or worked in 41 States in USA. Living with her family her Dad was a Director of Tubos de Aceros in D.F. and they had a ranch in Vera Cruz State and home in Vera Cruz, a house in D.F. and her's mom's home from the 1750's in Tepic, Nayarit and she had traveled or lived on short assignments with her dad in many major cities in Mexico. Oh, while single one time I worked for NOAAA on MS Fairweather in Alaska and ended up in Seattle, later renting with some buddies a floating house on Lake Union in Seattle. I helped open a Restaurant at White Pass Ski areas. So, we've been around the block 1 or 2 times.
> 
> I put off going to SMA for over 30-40 years, thinking we ******'s had probably ruined the place after 40-50 years of infiltration? Last year we went for 5 days after reading that delightful book about a couple of young Architects from L.A. went on vacations to visit their friends in SMA and basically bought a 200 year old run down house, fixed it up and never went home (so to speak). That's how SMA can effect you. By the way go on the Official SMA City Website and you will find the book there. Buy it and read it before you go, it will help you a lot. Unfortunately it's listed on my LapTop who's motherboard just went south. If we didn't have business and personal interests in Tepic, Nayarit my wife would demand that we relocated to SMA.
> 
> Here's the life style in a quick synophis;
> 1.) It's a World Heritage City and THE Jewel of Mexico. It takes quaint and pushes the word off
> the scale.
> 2.) Great Cafe Society, very educated populace, great tough Police Force, that can get the job
> done. Several strategic Camera's in the Sky around town to keep security tight
> 3.) Now it even has two great new Golf Courses outside of town with spectacular views of the
> downtown.
> 4.) A smaller/walking town. Most things are 12-13 blocks from the main town square, excepting
> the homes up on the hill overlooking downtown.
> 5.) There are familes from 70 different nationalities that keep homes/villas here.
> 6.) Great Restaurants.
> 7.) Village type night life, as you cruise from bar/night club to the next.
> 8.) You or your wife can take Cooking Classes of Mexican Cuisine from 4 hours to 7 day classes
> and learn to cook with some of the over 120 types of Chile in Mexico.
> 9.) Have Great/Fantastic Art Institutes (one huge one on outskirts of town) to learn Art.
> 10.)A couple of Good Museums.
> 11.) You'd be living in the Heart of the Revolution Belts with Hildalgo just 30 kms north and
> a one in a kind city on this whole planet "Guanajuato" about 1 hour west.
> 12.) All this surrounded by wild rangeland, pretty much how the Spanish discovered it 400 years
> ago.
> 13.) Discover all 3; Hildalgo, SMA, and Guanajuato and you too might love the life style in
> SMA the best.
> 14,) Security wise? It's off the main migration path for the Cartels to move major shipments of
> of Drugs, so the violence is whole lot less there. That and only 2-3 ways in or out of town
> so the Police/Military can lock the whole town down quickly if any bad action occurs.
> 
> Downsides;
> 1.) It's 170 miles +/- from D.F. and Mexican National Holidays and some Fiestas can become
> crowed from people coming from D.F.
> 2.) It's up high in elevation and cool in the winter (no, that's probably a plus for people coming
> from Seattle.?
> 
> Real Estate:
> 1.) Well you got the right game plan; 1.) Find the City/Village you know for sure you want to
> live in and rent first making sure you are right - get plugged into the locals and find the best
> real deals to buy.
> 2.) Generally speaking R.E. in North America will not hit bottom in prices until we hit bottom of
> this 240+ Year SuperCycle Depression event - around 2016-2017. So, don't get in any
> hurry, rent in various Cities/Villages and get your lifestyle down pat, then buy.
> 3.) Europe is in a whole World of Hurt Right now. Can probably rent an incredible Villa, keep
> it up for the owners in SMA and allow them to show it to sell it. R.E. Sells SLOWLY in
> Mexico? First few people have access to the US Mortgage Market for Mexico, bigger down
> payments, and most people pay cash for their homes. That takes time. Figures what ever
> you buy in Mexico (homes) might take you 2-4 years to finalize a sell.
> 
> My advice; Go for it! Like your gut said. Just step off the Planet into Mexico, absorb, enjoy,
> laugh a lot, enjoy and slowly get imersed in the culture, language, cuisine and explore, explore, explore. There are so many treasures in Mexico, it's almost mind bogglying to make a choice where to live. Until you're down there here from locals, you'll never even have an inkling of an idea of such fantasic little places to explore and might want to live. Run, as if you're over 30 there's not enough time to see all the Treasures of Mexico!
> 
> Oh, I remember the good ole days when Guadalajara was only 400-500k inhabitants, now with all the suburbs it's over 9 million - too big for us.
> 
> I hope this helps.
> 
> Cuyler


Thank you Cuyler for your thoughtful response. You've given me a great deal to think about and I appreciate your advice especially considering you have experienced so many different places and things in your life. I read the second book by the author you wrote about, Tony Cohan, called Mexican Days. I need to read his first for some inspiration I think. 

Interesting your comments on the Police. I have been a cop for 22 years and am wrapping up my career; I'm encouraged to hear you say positive things about the force there. 

We will go slow and enjoy the process. We plan to move January 2013 and are excitedly planning the details. Best regards and I hope we cross paths someday.

Glenn


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## cuylers5746

grotton said:


> Thank you Cuyler for your thoughtful response. You've given me a great deal to think about and I appreciate your advice especially considering you have experienced so many different places and things in your life. I read the second book by the author you wrote about, Tony Cohan, called Mexican Days. I need to read his first for some inspiration I think.
> 
> Interesting your comments on the Police. I have been a cop for 22 years and am wrapping up my career; I'm encouraged to hear you say positive things about the force there.
> 
> We will go slow and enjoy the process. We plan to move January 2013 and are excitedly planning the details. Best regards and I hope we cross paths someday.
> 
> Glenn


Hi Glen;

You'll have a great time in SMA. Oh, I forgot to say; it's very clean city, very little grafiti. 
Actually, with your background, I'd check in with the Chief of Police take him to breakfast or something and introduce yourself, also to the General in Charge of the Local Battalion.

You see with an FM-3 Visa you can get a gun permit, and even waivers signed off by the 
General on what you might want to keep in your house (since your used to that kind of Security).
Generally speaking you can keep a 38 caliber or less pistol in your house and a Shotgun, but check with the Chief of Police and General as you will need permits. Anything of Military caliber
is highly illegal and can land you in jail for a long time. Don't bring any iron south with you!

Next, I wouldn't be surprised with your background they might want to use you for some consulting. Many cities and states are migrating from a "show of force" type Police Force with little Detective Work and real little training and experience to quickly trying to get types of Police Forces like in USA. I think you should only consider it on a minor, local level. Anything above
that might get you too well known, and put you and your family at risk with some Cartel people.

Oh, and while in Guadalajara, have your business partner take you and your wife out to Tonala, a suburb. It's about a 9-10 square block of artisians, crafts people to blow your mind on the possibilities of furnishing your rental house with about anything you could dream up for where ever you go. It's has the major types of crafts from all over Mexico there, at the cheapest prices. Once you see some of the Villas, and Bed-n-Breakasts in SMA you will get an excellent idea on how you want to furnish your home.

You don't need to move all your furniture south with you, just key pieces and top of the line US Appliances - the rest you'll have a ball buying stuff all over Mexico and Tonala to furnish your new rental home. That's what we did as after we knew that after awhile all that dark classic furniture from the USA gets to be boring along side all the colorful stuff from Mexico. You get into bright colors and highly seasoned food after awhile.

Since you already read Tony Cohan's book buy this one;  In a Mexican Garden, courtyards, pools, and open-air living rooms by Melba Levik, Gina Hyams ISBN 0-8118-4130-8
It's 176 color pages from Haciendas, Casonas, Villas - a number from SMA. You might even ask to see some of those houses when you visit? I've lent it to friends redoing their houses and have just used it for color ideas on painting the houses, to doing gardens, fountains, etc.

Once you decide where your going to live and get an address, get on the IMMS "Seguro Social" Medical System ASAP after you have an address, and they're now turning down retiree's with some prior Medical Conditions. For around $500.00 USD/year including for the both of you for full Medical Care including free generic medicines, $0 co-payment, $0 deductibles, $0 for Lab Tests no life time limits. Think if nothing else as cheap travel insurance as it's good in every little Pueblo, and City in Mexico. Get on it early. They built a couple of years ago a top of the line
Cardiac Center Hospital in Guadalajara too.

I hope this helps. If coming by Tepic you and your wife stop buy; [email protected].

Cuyler


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## tejanoSMA

*San Miguel Real Estate*



grotton said:


> I have read that the value of real estate has plummeted in the last few years and that Se Vende signs are everywhere. I wonder what this means for the future? Does anyone have thoughts on this.


Real Estate in expat communities like San Miguel de Allende, have price cycles that are sensitive to the choices of the marginal American retiring or purchasing a vacation home abroad. 9/11 was followed by a steep drop in prices in upper end (******) housing in San Miguel as Americans chose the safety of familiar domestic residences. The second election of George Bush was followed by a limited but noticeable increase in prices as some were ready to exit the US.

This year the level of vacationing Americans in San Miguel is sharply down again. Many who own homes here are not visiting as frequently. While existing residents are more comfortable than the average tourist with the levels of crime and violence, economic factors are causing many to offer their homes for sale.

Real Estate here is purchased in cash. Typically a home in the states was mortgaged to purchase a home here. That is not as easy as it was when mortgages were available to anyone that had breath. This high level of cash equity creates price discrepancies in a down market. Some sellers hold out for unrealistic prices. Sellers looking for a quick sale of high end homes are pricing at about 40% of the market highs. Pricing of housing under $300,000 is more stable. Housing is not particularly inexpensive relative to the US. In prior years an American could come here, buy a lot, build a house then sell it for a substantial profit. Many did this. Currently the supply of homes is such that new development is likely to be unprofitable. The market for lower end housing is still firm as locals struggle to compete in the market with foreigners to find shelter.

The future is notoriously hard to predict. International politics, the economy, the prospects of war and terrorism, all effect the decisions of Americans to relocate abroad. Expat communities are particularly sensitive to the adventurism of American buyers. Mexico's economy is strong. There is a real desire by the Mexican people to pursue prosperity and reduce violence. It is always possible that in the short run there will be less demand for real estate in this expat community. Longer run prospects remain favorable due to the demographics, the retirement needs of Americans and the beauty of San Miguel's natural environment and people.

Disclosure: Long San Miguel Real Estate for past 10 years.


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## grotton

tejanoSMA said:


> Real Estate in expat communities like San Miguel de Allende, have price cycles that are sensitive to the choices of the marginal American retiring or purchasing a vacation home abroad. 9/11 was followed by a steep drop in prices in upper end (******) housing in San Miguel as Americans chose the safety of familiar domestic residences. The second election of George Bush was followed by a limited but noticeable increase in prices as some were ready to exit the US.
> 
> This year the level of vacationing Americans in San Miguel is sharply down again. Many who own homes here are not visiting as frequently. While existing residents are more comfortable than the average tourist with the levels of crime and violence, economic factors are causing many to offer their homes for sale.
> 
> Real Estate here is purchased in cash. Typically a home in the states was mortgaged to purchase a home here. That is not as easy as it was when mortgages were available to anyone that had breath. This high level of cash equity creates price discrepancies in a down market. Some sellers hold out for unrealistic prices. Sellers looking for a quick sale of high end homes are pricing at about 40% of the market highs. Pricing of housing under $300,000 is more stable. Housing is not particularly inexpensive relative to the US. In prior years an American could come here, buy a lot, build a house then sell it for a substantial profit. Many did this. Currently the supply of homes is such that new development is likely to be unprofitable. The market for lower end housing is still firm as locals struggle to compete in the market with foreigners to find shelter.
> 
> The future is notoriously hard to predict. International politics, the economy, the prospects of war and terrorism, all effect the decisions of Americans to relocate abroad. Expat communities are particularly sensitive to the adventurism of American buyers. Mexico's economy is strong. There is a real desire by the Mexican people to pursue prosperity and reduce violence. It is always possible that in the short run there will be less demand for real estate in this expat community. Longer run prospects remain favorable due to the demographics, the retirement needs of Americans and the beauty of San Miguel's natural environment and people.
> 
> Disclosure: Long San Miguel Real Estate for past 10 years.


Your post confirms an assumption that we've been developing as we do our research. That buying a house that is in a market saturated by expatriate (******) buyers leaves you more vulnerable to the patterns of the American buyer who have in the last few years not been buying real estate like they used to. But buy a house that a Mexican might also want to buy creates more security. Well off or middle class Mexicans aren't able to abandon the market/country because of political change or increased instability and will always want to buy in good solid markets. Our price range we are comfortable with is in the $150,000 to $200,000 range, (safely outside the category of wealthy ******) and we suspect is a range that Mexicans from Mexico City or GDL might also be targeting. It seems there is ample inventory in this category and I (my partner has visited SMA several times and already knows he finds it attractive) suspect I will like the city. 

You mentioned in your post that you don't believe new development would be profitable. Does this mean one would end up with more house if they bought from existing inventory then if they built new or did a full remodel of an existing house? 

PS thanks for your disclosure. I feel confident you assessment is without bias ; )


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## tejanoSMA

grotton said:


> ... That buying a house that is in a market saturated by expatriate (******) buyers leaves you more vulnerable to the patterns of the American buyer who have in the last few years not been buying real estate like they used to. But buy a house that a Mexican might also want to buy creates more security. ....
> 
> You mentioned in your post that you don't believe new development would be profitable. Does this mean one would end up with more house if they bought from existing inventory then if they built new or did a full remodel of an existing house?
> 
> PS thanks for your disclosure. I feel confident you assessment is without bias ; )


San Miguel's real estate market is being held up by Mexico City folk but their demand typically does not go over $400k even in this top end ****** dominated town. Just 3 or 4 years ago one could sell a high end house for about twice its lot and construction price, resulting in neighborhoods of million dollar houses. As the market has trended down, buyers get much more for the buck from existing construction but remodeling costs have also fallen. Care must be taken to obtain and supervise quality construction, it is not as easy or risk free as one might think. Better value is now available from existing inventory. Your original question is correct in that Se Vende signs are everywhere. Many houses that do not have signs have been taken off the market because sellers are unwilling to show their houses when the chances of getting a good price are so low. This market is suffering from lack of ****** demand, a condition shared with expat communities across Mexico, in proportion to the percentage of gringos. An increase in cartel violence, terrorism or war is likely to make the situtation worse. America's fiscal cliff and stalemate in governing could make things better.

San Miguel is not the place for one looking to minimize expenses but more for one seeking an established expat community with little crime or violence. A beer at one of the cafes around the square will be one of the most expensive beers available in Mexico, but you can order it and talk with the next table in English about poetry readings and art gallery openings.

Mike


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## Longford

grotton said:


> Your post confirms an assumption that we've been developing as we do our research. That buying a house that is in a market saturated by expatriate (******) buyers leaves you more vulnerable to the patterns of the American buyer who have in the last few years not been buying real estate like they used to.


Relative to the overall population there, foreigners comprise a small percentage. If the city's "saturated" it's saturated with Mexicans not foreigners. That's been my observation. I doubt you're going to have a problem finding something you like there, or anywhere else you look in Mexico, that falls within the price range you're prepared to pay.


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## conklinwh

Grotton, not sure how you did it but you've pulled in multiple 1st time posters from SMA.
We spent 5 years renting in SMA and it was great. When we decided to buy/build in 2006, it was at the high end of the market so for that and others reasons, like noise & traffic we looked at nearby options although wanting to stay close. We ended up 45 min away but go into San Miguel about once a week. Most of our friends are artists that live well and pretty inexpensively. Because Aurora has caused somewhat of a shift in art location, many are now in the Guadalupe & Independencia areas.
Not sure if crime has risen or just better reported but the weekly postings in the Atencion have gone from basically nothing to a little.
What has impacted us is night driving. We used to not much worry but now try to minimize.
This has caused us to spend days in San Miguel versus evenings and we miss the evenings to the point that we are looking at possibility of a small condo in San Miguel. I'm presently surprised with the options under $200K in such places as Gaudiana which is a big change.
As with anything, I would rent in one or more places. BTW, the mayor reported last year that there were 12K expats in San Miguel. San Miguel, like a lot of places, is both a city and sort of a county with multiple other communities included so not sure whether the 12K compares to the about 65K in the city or the about 112K in the "county".


----------



## TundraGreen

Longford said:


> Relative to the overall population there, foreigners comprise a small percentage. If the city's "saturated" it's saturated with Mexicans not foreigners. That's been my observation. I doubt you're going to have a problem finding something you like there, or anywhere else you look in Mexico, that falls within the price range you're prepared to pay.


According to Wikipedia (and its references), there are 8,000 to 12,000 foreigners in San Miguel de Allende out of a total population of around 140,000. As a point of contrast, there are about the same number of expats near Lake Chapala while the total population there is about 45,000.


----------



## conklinwh

TG, this gets to the city/county discussion as most expats probably in/close to the city which is about half the total at around 65K but this is changing. I thought that RVG said that there is more like 20K expats Lakeside.


----------



## grotton

conklinwh said:


> Grotton, not sure how you did it but you've pulled in multiple 1st time posters from SMA.
> We spent 5 years renting in SMA and it was great. When we decided to buy/build in 2006, it was at the high end of the market so for that and others reasons, like noise & traffic we looked at nearby options although wanting to stay close. We ended up 45 min away but go into San Miguel about once a week. Most of our friends are artists that live well and pretty inexpensively. Because Aurora has caused somewhat of a shift in art location, many are now in the Guadalupe & Independencia areas.
> Not sure if crime has risen or just better reported but the weekly postings in the Atencion have gone from basically nothing to a little.
> What has impacted us is night driving. We used to not much worry but now try to minimize.
> This has caused us to spend days in San Miguel versus evenings and we miss the evenings to the point that we are looking at possibility of a small condo in San Miguel. I'm presently surprised with the options under $200K in such places as Gaudiana which is a big change.
> As with anything, I would rent in one or more places. BTW, the mayor reported last year that there were 12K expats in San Miguel. San Miguel, like a lot of places, is both a city and sort of a county with multiple other communities included so not sure whether the 12K compares to the about 65K in the city or the about 112K in the "county".


I appreciate how thoughtful the posters have been with their comments. Crime, though it has an profound impact on movement to and from Mexico, has not been a huge concern of mine mostly because I have never seen or experienced it directly in my travels across the country. I walk, play, eat out all around Guadalajara enjoying night life, bars, clubs etc with my Mexican family and friends and we just don't see the crime. But one headline about a murdered American who perhaps used bad judgement inviting people into his house he shouldn't have for reasons he might be ashamed of is presented in the media as expat life in Mexico. After one trip to GDL i returned to Seattle and read in the paper that 13 murders occurred over the weekend. In Seattle. But there is no migration out of town in response. So I'm not afraid of crime in regards to it jumping out and grabbing me, but as with everyone, concerned about how misgivings about the crime "situation" in Mexico effect patterns, prices and life where we want to settle.


----------



## conklinwh

Crime is basically everywhere and getting worse as there is more economic pressure. This is basically a worldwide versus Mexico statement. We don't really think of crime much differently here than when we lived in the US. What is different is the amount of protection built in and the horrific nature of some of the killings. When I 1st started traveling outside the US, I was amazed that basically everyplace had bars on the windows and locked gates.
Mexico is certainly no different and we have a lot more property protection in Mexico than the US. We don't see much violent crime and probably a lot less than we saw in the US.
The problem is that the horrific nature of the acts gets a lot of attention in the US which certainly dampens US tourism and home buying. There have been a lot of conspiracy discussions that at least part of the publicity is aimed at keeping retirees and their dollars in the US versus moving to Mexico.
I certainly would not let crime be the decider on moving to Mexico or SMA in particular. I would, as in any city, make it part of the decision on where in that city that I would rent or buy. More important is how you feel about the place and what it offers. I think that SMA and the surrounding area is wonderful but that my view, not yours.


----------



## Longford

TundraGreen said:


> According to Wikipedia (and its references), there are 8,000 to 12,000 foreigners in San Miguel de Allende out of a total population of around 140,000. As a point of contrast, there are about the same number of expats near Lake Chapala while the total population there is about 45,000.


I'll suggest that the Wiki information is probably not accurate. I believe the 12,000 number is more than double the number of expats living there full-time. I've seen the numbers quoted in _Atencion San Miguel _ newspaper but don't recall exactly. I also saw, somewhere a year ago, a compilation of foreigners resideing in Mexico during the last Census period and have lost the link. I have a link for the Census results but don't have the interest in searching through the site to see if the numbers are presented. Others here may have that interest, though. 

Censo de Población y Vivienda 2010

I also think (emphasis on _think_) the city population is about 65,000 or slightly less and that the larger number would be for the expansive municipio. For the two municipios in which a majority of the Lakeside expats are living ... the 2010 Census lists the population at 91,000 (Chapala and Jocotepec).

Tourist visits from the USA, SMA's principal drawing point, have dropped significantly in the past several years ... from what I'm recalling (and I think there's been reference to that in the comments of another person, earlier in the discussion). 

The point I meant to emphasize is that I believe the often heard comment that SMA is over-run with foreigners is not based on fact. 

Thanks.


----------



## cherirae

cuylers5746 said:


> Hi Restless in Seattle;
> 
> Actually, I would say that you have embarked on a very sound plan of attach, and yes I would explore San Miguel de Allende (SMA) for living there for a year or two.
> 
> A little background on where my and my wife's advice is coming from. My wife of 37 years and I have lived or worked in 41 States in USA. Living with her family her Dad was a Director of Tubos de Aceros in D.F. and they had a ranch in Vera Cruz State and home in Vera Cruz, a house in D.F. and her's mom's home from the 1750's in Tepic, Nayarit and she had traveled or lived on short assignments with her dad in many major cities in Mexico. Oh, while single one time I worked for NOAAA on MS Fairweather in Alaska and ended up in Seattle, later renting with some buddies a floating house on Lake Union in Seattle. I helped open a Restaurant at White Pass Ski areas. So, we've been around the block 1 or 2 times.
> 
> I put off going to SMA for over 30-40 years, thinking we ******'s had probably ruined the place after 40-50 years of infiltration? Last year we went for 5 days after reading that delightful book about a couple of young Architects from L.A. went on vacations to visit their friends in SMA and basically bought a 200 year old run down house, fixed it up and never went home (so to speak). That's how SMA can effect you. By the way go on the Official SMA City Website and you will find the book there. Buy it and read it before you go, it will help you a lot. Unfortunately it's listed on my LapTop who's motherboard just went south. If we didn't have business and personal interests in Tepic, Nayarit my wife would demand that we relocated to SMA.
> 
> Here's the life style in a quick synophis;
> 1.) It's a World Heritage City and THE Jewel of Mexico. It takes quaint and pushes the word off
> the scale.
> 2.) Great Cafe Society, very educated populace, great tough Police Force, that can get the job
> done. Several strategic Camera's in the Sky around town to keep security tight
> 3.) Now it even has two great new Golf Courses outside of town with spectacular views of the
> downtown.
> 4.) A smaller/walking town. Most things are 12-13 blocks from the main town square, excepting
> the homes up on the hill overlooking downtown.
> 5.) There are familes from 70 different nationalities that keep homes/villas here.
> 6.) Great Restaurants.
> 7.) Village type night life, as you cruise from bar/night club to the next.
> 8.) You or your wife can take Cooking Classes of Mexican Cuisine from 4 hours to 7 day classes
> and learn to cook with some of the over 120 types of Chile in Mexico.
> 9.) Have Great/Fantastic Art Institutes (one huge one on outskirts of town) to learn Art.
> 10.)A couple of Good Museums.
> 11.) You'd be living in the Heart of the Revolution Belts with Hildalgo just 30 kms north and
> a one in a kind city on this whole planet "Guanajuato" about 1 hour west.
> 12.) All this surrounded by wild rangeland, pretty much how the Spanish discovered it 400 years
> ago.
> 13.) Discover all 3; Hildalgo, SMA, and Guanajuato and you too might love the life style in
> SMA the best.
> 14,) Security wise? It's off the main migration path for the Cartels to move major shipments of
> of Drugs, so the violence is whole lot less there. That and only 2-3 ways in or out of town
> so the Police/Military can lock the whole town down quickly if any bad action occurs.
> 
> Downsides;
> 1.) It's 170 miles +/- from D.F. and Mexican National Holidays and some Fiestas can become
> crowed from people coming from D.F.
> 2.) It's up high in elevation and cool in the winter (no, that's probably a plus for people coming
> from Seattle.?
> 
> Real Estate:
> 1.) Well you got the right game plan; 1.) Find the City/Village you know for sure you want to
> live in and rent first making sure you are right - get plugged into the locals and find the best
> real deals to buy.
> 2.) Generally speaking R.E. in North America will not hit bottom in prices until we hit bottom of
> this 240+ Year SuperCycle Depression event - around 2016-2017. So, don't get in any
> hurry, rent in various Cities/Villages and get your lifestyle down pat, then buy.
> 3.) Europe is in a whole World of Hurt Right now. Can probably rent an incredible Villa, keep
> it up for the owners in SMA and allow them to show it to sell it. R.E. Sells SLOWLY in
> Mexico? First few people have access to the US Mortgage Market for Mexico, bigger down
> payments, and most people pay cash for their homes. That takes time. Figures what ever
> you buy in Mexico (homes) might take you 2-4 years to finalize a sell.
> 
> My advice; Go for it! Like your gut said. Just step off the Planet into Mexico, absorb, enjoy,
> laugh a lot, enjoy and slowly get imersed in the culture, language, cuisine and explore, explore, explore. There are so many treasures in Mexico, it's almost mind bogglying to make a choice where to live. Until you're down there here from locals, you'll never even have an inkling of an idea of such fantasic little places to explore and might want to live. Run, as if you're over 30 there's not enough time to see all the Treasures of Mexico!
> 
> Oh, I remember the good ole days when Guadalajara was only 400-500k inhabitants, now with all the suburbs it's over 9 million - too big for us.
> 
> I hope this helps.
> 
> Cuyler


Thanks Cuyler for your summary of life in San Miguel. I will be visiting there soon with intention of looking for long-term rental. My goal is to simplify my life and therefore live on a very limited fixed income. I have no desire to live an American lifestyle in Mexico ..... I have a desire to assimilate into the Mexican culture. With careful planning I think I can do that. Any further suggestions in that regard would be appreciated. Also, you mentioned being 150 miles from D.F. ..... what is D.F?


----------



## Longford

cherirae said:


> Thanks Cuyler for your summary of life in San Miguel. I will be visiting there soon with intention of looking for long-term rental. My goal is to simplify my life and therefore live on a very limited fixed income. I have no desire to live an American lifestyle in Mexico ..... I have a desire to assimilate into the Mexican culture. With careful planning I think I can do that. Any further suggestions in that regard would be appreciated. Also, you mentioned being 150 miles from D.F. ..... what is D.F?


The abbreviation "D.F." stands for Distrito Federal. The Federal District. a/k/a Mexico City.

You've probably already investigated this, but, in case you haven't ... Mexico requires expat residents to demonstrate a certain verifiable minimum income/influx into a bank account on a monthy basis. I draw attention to the requirement in connection with your comment ""My goal is to simplify my life and therefore live on a very limited fixed income." I think the 2012 number is about US$1,250 per month. It's adjusted yearly.

Best of luck with your relocation planning. San Miguel de Allende is one of my most favored destinations in Mexico.


----------



## cherirae

Thanks Longford for you timely response .... I was aware of the need to demonstrate minimum monthly income and was pleased to discover I did meet the requirement.


----------



## cuylers5746

*Assimulating in SMA*



cherirae said:


> Thanks Cuyler for your summary of life in San Miguel. I will be visiting there soon with intention of looking for long-term rental. My goal is to simplify my life and therefore live on a very limited fixed income. I have no desire to live an American lifestyle in Mexico ..... I have a desire to assimilate into the Mexican culture. With careful planning I think I can do that. Any further suggestions in that regard would be appreciated. Also, you mentioned being 150 miles from D.F. ..... what is D.F?


Hi Cherirae;

No problema.....your from Oklahoma. We have good friends near here in the general area of Tepic from Oklahoma. They just love it. They moved between two Huichol villages, and as seniors know..."you walk a lot or drop". So on their walks they've made new friends. The wife has become a good friend of on gal who took her under her wing and taught her how to grind the corn on the mortar from corn right behind their house, make it into tortilla dough and make good tortillas over the wood fire. Then she taught her to make a colorful Huichol blouse. They made her an honorary Huicholita!

Actually you have a couple of great things going for you being from Oklahoma;
1.) You guys can see through the most complicated goubly **** and reduce it to one short sentance or two. Obviously as you can see - I can't do that - I'm not from Oklahoma.
2.) You have a great sense of humor and that even includes poking fun at yourselves.
3.) You reduce things to their simplest....more truer state.
4.) Not stuck up, and see the beauty and humor in most things.

Question? Did I get the above right? 

That's from about a years worth of work off and on at AFB ALC-Oklahoma City. What was it Bldg. 110, that is so long on the Air Force Base, that they had a fire in the rafters, and they built a fire wall floor to ceiling and moved everyone to the north end to continue working while it took them "..a year" to put out the fire? I swear you look down the main corridor with the lights on and I swear it look's like you're seeing the curvature of the earth aligning those lights! Something like 3850 ft. long? That almost 3/4 of a mile long.

Those are almost like Mexicano traits. As people get to know you...they'll LOVE you and your humor. I won't go into those traits as I could easily write a long short story on that subject, but
you'll find out.

By the way D.F. (is THE CITY). Meaning the largest city on the planet = Mexico City.

Here's a few tips for assimulation for you.

1.) Go take an Art Class, ask first which particular class might have the most students in it?
That way you got a greater chance to meet more people.
2.) See rather they have a demonination of your Church in SMA? Go attend and meet other 
people. If not, you can still go to Church and even a Catholic Mass. It won't kill you and
being a non-Catholic I've been to several thousand Masses over the years - and NOT
once been approached to become a Catholic. Amazing? They're always having some
Fiesta related to the Church and you'll meet people there. Just don't tell them you're not
a Catholic, and they'll assume you are one! You see 84% of all Mexicanos are Catholic
so that's a very reasonable assumption on their part?
3.) See on a local Web Site if there are any clubs you might like to join, that you might attend 
their meetings?
4.) Go to Mama Mia's Restaurant just south off the Jardin in the evening, especially the roof top 
and have a cold one while watching the sunset. I don't think most visitors to SMA even know 
they have that area to drink. Your more apt to meet locals up there.

By the way when you go to some of those Fiestas, many are pot luck. Oh, they'll love your Potatoe Salad, etc. That'll get conversations going. When they break out into dancing at these Fiestas, unless it's some local dance class, or city Folkloric Ballet group, yes you'll be seeing them dancing "Line Dancing" too. They love it? Why? Don't have a clue, excepting Mexicano's have so much common sense and don't mind bothering to borrow things from other cultures that they take a fancy to? So, you'll be the hit of the village teaching the women new dance steps to Line Dancing. They'll probably ask to come over to your rented house and you give them classes. I kid you not.

As far as homes are concerned. We meet a nice couple while there; she originally from D.F. and he a Canadian. They were looking at new Townhomes to rent, a 2 bedroom just on outskirts of town for like $250.00 USD equivalent per month. Before renting, walk around the block and then neighboring blocks. Why? All blocks are definitely NOT created equal in Mexico! Some are so thick, wide, that you can rent a house with a huge backyard if you look in the right block - and then plant your Supersized Vegetable/Fruit Garden like you might have back home in Oklahoma.

Simplifying your life? Don't just look at the house, look at the Amenities. I'll give you a for instance. I've lived almost every conceivable lifestyle except on a ranch or farm in the USA.
Here, I did some thing different living Inter-City only 3.5 blocks from the main town square. Here's my Ammenities;
1. A Fruiteria within 150 meters of my front door.
2. A little Supermercado (mind you only probably 450 sq. ft) within a block
3. 3 Deposits within 200 meters.
4. A great little Doctorcita's Office within 110 meters.
5. Two hair stylist places within 75 meters
6. A smaller, great and inexpensive hospital within 1.5 blocks.
7. Great Tacqueria Restaurant on same block
8. Tortilla factory within 1 blocks
9. Great seamstress within 1 blocks
10. Cute little (only holds like 200 people) Catholic Church within 1.5 blocks. Great, heavy duty
Priests that are really holy men, instead of practicing. It's over 200 years old and very quaint 
and beautiful with all it's plants. You want practicing go see a Doctor?
11. One of the biggest Hardware Stores in town (and their Wharehouse for other locations) is
right on the next block.
12. Dog Parlour and Training school within a block
13. Frame Store within a block.
14. A Alignment Mechanic Shop in same block.
15. Charo's live across the street.
16. A Bar called "Mi Officina" within a block.
17. Great little Pasoaleria a couple of doors down from the Church, across the street.
18. A Butcher Shop within a block.
19. A Chicken only Butcher shop. My wife brought back the chicken one day after visiting the
shop and putting the chicken in the Freezer. It was warm. She went back, flopped the 
chicken on the Butcher's counter....."this chicken is warm, it's old meat"! The lady 
starting laughing took her by the hand, and led her to the back part of the store. She only saw 
chickens in wire cages? The Butcher said, that was your chicken 15 minutes ago. You order, 
we wring their neck, pluck the feathers and sell them to you. The store is only open from like
8:00 AM until the chickens runs out, which is usually by 11:30 AM.

It was even better, but the economy in USA and including Mexico caused two Chinese Restaurants to close (one very Authentic - as the guy was from Bejing). One Supermercardito
and a Pharmacy to close. Here's a joke, that's not really a joke. With all those Amenities you'd think my wife would be very contented? No, she complains we don't have a Pollo Loco or some broiled chicken place on the block, oh and she wants her Chinese Restaurant to return too. 

But, you should aim for a little bit of what I have to make your life more simple and easier.

I hope that I covered all the bases for you?

Cuyler


----------



## cuylers5746

*Tejano SMA Real Estate*



tejanoSMA said:


> Real Estate in expat communities like San Miguel de Allende, have price cycles that are sensitive to the choices of the marginal American retiring or purchasing a vacation home abroad. 9/11 was followed by a steep drop in prices in upper end (******) housing in San Miguel as Americans chose the safety of familiar domestic residences. The second election of George Bush was followed by a limited but noticeable increase in prices as some were ready to exit the US.
> 
> This year the level of vacationing Americans in San Miguel is sharply down again. Many who own homes here are not visiting as frequently. While existing residents are more comfortable than the average tourist with the levels of crime and violence, economic factors are causing many to offer their homes for sale.
> 
> Real Estate here is purchased in cash. Typically a home in the states was mortgaged to purchase a home here. That is not as easy as it was when mortgages were available to anyone that had breath. This high level of cash equity creates price discrepancies in a down market. Some sellers hold out for unrealistic prices. Sellers looking for a quick sale of high end homes are pricing at about 40% of the market highs. Pricing of housing under $300,000 is more stable. Housing is not particularly inexpensive relative to the US. In prior years an American could come here, buy a lot, build a house then sell it for a substantial profit. Many did this. Currently the supply of homes is such that new development is likely to be unprofitable. The market for lower end housing is still firm as locals struggle to compete in the market with foreigners to find shelter.
> 
> The future is notoriously hard to predict. International politics, the economy, the prospects of war and terrorism, all effect the decisions of Americans to relocate abroad. Expat communities are particularly sensitive to the adventurism of American buyers. Mexico's economy is strong. There is a real desire by the Mexican people to pursue prosperity and reduce violence. It is always possible that in the short run there will be less demand for real estate in this expat community. Longer run prospects remain favorable due to the demographics, the retirement needs of Americans and the beauty of San Miguel's natural environment and people.
> 
> Disclosure: Long San Miguel Real Estate for past 10 years.


Hola Tejano;

I just have to commend you for being the most astute Real Estate Agent/Broker, I've every come across NOB or SOB, bar none. I would highly recommend anyone buying property in or around SMA to meet with you and have you represent them. I bet you have a lot of high end clients from Europe, that probably attach to you like flies?

I've heard of and meet a couple of really god R.E. people that are from NOB in Mexico, but most are absolutely clueless of the larger MacroEconomic picture affecting their Industry. Well how could they if they listen to the garbage from the NRA in the USA. Hired Economist by that Association, I liken to the Doctors hired by the Tobacco Cos. in USA in the 60's,70's that claimed not ill health side effects from smoking. 

Keep selling. I learned some from your post. Loved it. I have a lot of questions for you? You mind taking some of this discussion off the ExPat Form and corresponding with me [email protected]. There seems to be much financial opportunity, but I think timing will be everything?

Cuyler


----------



## cherirae

*Thanks Cuyler*



cuylers5746 said:


> Hi Cherirae;
> 
> No problema.....your from Oklahoma. We have good friends near here in the general area of Tepic from Oklahoma. They just love it. They moved between two Huichol villages, and as seniors know..."you walk a lot or drop". So on their walks they've made new friends. The wife has become a good friend of on gal who took her under her wing and taught her how to grind the corn on the mortar from corn right behind their house, make it into tortilla dough and make good tortillas over the wood fire. Then she taught her to make a colorful Huichol blouse. They made her an honorary Huicholita!
> 
> Actually you have a couple of great things going for you being from Oklahoma;
> 1.) You guys can see through the most complicated goubly **** and reduce it to one short sentance or two. Obviously as you can see - I can't do that - I'm not from Oklahoma.
> 2.) You have a great sense of humor and that even includes poking fun at yourselves.
> 3.) You reduce things to their simplest....more truer state.
> 4.) Not stuck up, and see the beauty and humor in most things.
> 
> Question? Did I get the above right?
> 
> That's from about a years worth of work off and on at AFB ALC-Oklahoma City. What was it Bldg. 110, that is so long on the Air Force Base, that they had a fire in the rafters, and they built a fire wall floor to ceiling and moved everyone to the north end to continue working while it took them "..a year" to put out the fire? I swear you look down the main corridor with the lights on and I swear it look's like you're seeing the curvature of the earth aligning those lights! Something like 3850 ft. long? That almost 3/4 of a mile long.
> 
> Those are almost like Mexicano traits. As people get to know you...they'll LOVE you and your humor. I won't go into those traits as I could easily write a long short story on that subject, but
> you'll find out.
> 
> By the way D.F. (is THE CITY). Meaning the largest city on the planet = Mexico City.
> 
> Here's a few tips for assimulation for you.
> 
> 1.) Go take an Art Class, ask first which particular class might have the most students in it?
> That way you got a greater chance to meet more people.
> 2.) See rather they have a demonination of your Church in SMA? Go attend and meet other
> people. If not, you can still go to Church and even a Catholic Mass. It won't kill you and
> being a non-Catholic I've been to several thousand Masses over the years - and NOT
> once been approached to become a Catholic. Amazing? They're always having some
> Fiesta related to the Church and you'll meet people there. Just don't tell them you're not
> a Catholic, and they'll assume you are one! You see 84% of all Mexicanos are Catholic
> so that's a very reasonable assumption on their part?
> 3.) See on a local Web Site if there are any clubs you might like to join, that you might attend
> their meetings?
> 4.) Go to Mama Mia's Restaurant just south off the Jardin in the evening, especially the roof top
> and have a cold one while watching the sunset. I don't think most visitors to SMA even know
> they have that area to drink. Your more apt to meet locals up there.
> 
> By the way when you go to some of those Fiestas, many are pot luck. Oh, they'll love your Potatoe Salad, etc. That'll get conversations going. When they break out into dancing at these Fiestas, unless it's some local dance class, or city Folkloric Ballet group, yes you'll be seeing them dancing "Line Dancing" too. They love it? Why? Don't have a clue, excepting Mexicano's have so much common sense and don't mind bothering to borrow things from other cultures that they take a fancy to? So, you'll be the hit of the village teaching the women new dance steps to Line Dancing. They'll probably ask to come over to your rented house and you give them classes. I kid you not.
> 
> As far as homes are concerned. We meet a nice couple while there; she originally from D.F. and he a Canadian. They were looking at new Townhomes to rent, a 2 bedroom just on outskirts of town for like $250.00 USD equivalent per month. Before renting, walk around the block and then neighboring blocks. Why? All blocks are definitely NOT created equal in Mexico! Some are so thick, wide, that you can rent a house with a huge backyard if you look in the right block - and then plant your Supersized Vegetable/Fruit Garden like you might have back home in Oklahoma.
> 
> Simplifying your life? Don't just look at the house, look at the Amenities. I'll give you a for instance. I've lived almost every conceivable lifestyle except on a ranch or farm in the USA.
> Here, I did some thing different living Inter-City only 3.5 blocks from the main town square. Here's my Ammenities;
> 1. A Fruiteria within 150 meters of my front door.
> 2. A little Supermercado (mind you only probably 450 sq. ft) within a block
> 3. 3 Deposits within 200 meters.
> 4. A great little Doctorcita's Office within 110 meters.
> 5. Two hair stylist places within 75 meters
> 6. A smaller, great and inexpensive hospital within 1.5 blocks.
> 7. Great Tacqueria Restaurant on same block
> 8. Tortilla factory within 1 blocks
> 9. Great seamstress within 1 blocks
> 10. Cute little (only holds like 200 people) Catholic Church within 1.5 blocks. Great, heavy duty
> Priests that are really holy men, instead of practicing. It's over 200 years old and very quaint
> and beautiful with all it's plants. You want practicing go see a Doctor?
> 11. One of the biggest Hardware Stores in town (and their Wharehouse for other locations) is
> right on the next block.
> 12. Dog Parlour and Training school within a block
> 13. Frame Store within a block.
> 14. A Alignment Mechanic Shop in same block.
> 15. Charo's live across the street.
> 16. A Bar called "Mi Officina" within a block.
> 17. Great little Pasoaleria a couple of doors down from the Church, across the street.
> 18. A Butcher Shop within a block.
> 19. A Chicken only Butcher shop. My wife brought back the chicken one day after visiting the
> shop and putting the chicken in the Freezer. It was warm. She went back, flopped the
> chicken on the Butcher's counter....."this chicken is warm, it's old meat"! The lady
> starting laughing took her by the hand, and led her to the back part of the store. She only saw
> chickens in wire cages? The Butcher said, that was your chicken 15 minutes ago. You order,
> we wring their neck, pluck the feathers and sell them to you. The store is only open from like
> 8:00 AM until the chickens runs out, which is usually by 11:30 AM.
> 
> It was even better, but the economy in USA and including Mexico caused two Chinese Restaurants to close (one very Authentic - as the guy was from Bejing). One Supermercardito
> and a Pharmacy to close. Here's a joke, that's not really a joke. With all those Amenities you'd think my wife would be very contented? No, she complains we don't have a Pollo Loco or some broiled chicken place on the block, oh and she wants her Chinese Restaurant to return too.
> 
> But, you should aim for a little bit of what I have to make your life more simple and easier.
> 
> I hope that I covered all the bases for you?
> 
> Cuyler


Thanks again Cuyler .... your description of daily life is delightful. Especially enjoyed the story of the "warm" chicken! My greatest concern as a "senior" is living on my budget and being able to handle medical issues should they arise ..... I say greatest concern but not enough to keep me from trying. 

Out of necessity (and a gypsy spirit of adventure) I do have some experience in finding budget ways to do things. Many years ago .... as a very young adult with two babies ......I followed my then airmen husband (he was 20 and I was 21) to Spain and, much to his surprise, I insisted we live on the economy. Having worked on an AFB, you have an idea of salary for a new airman. We spent 5 incredible years living in Alcala de Hennares and Madrid without any outside financial help. I put those babies (before I left there were four - a set of twins) in their stroller and ..... like a metro rat .... I was all over the area. At first I carried my little Spanish/American dictionary but very quickly became fluent in street Spanish. That experience taught me so much ... primary of which .... I love diversity and I can do better than survive ... I can, and did, thrive!

San Miguel has been on my radar for some time because of the Old World influence, the emphasis on the arts, the diversity and, yes, what I hope will be a manageable cost of living. I do meet the required monthly minimum established by Mexico but not a great deal more and my needs are few. I don't want to have a car .... I much prefer walking and public transportation and I don't require a lot of luxuries .... beans & tortillas and fresh produce can satisfy me (not to say I don't enjoy a 5 star restaurant - I just don't NEED to go to them. 

Thanks or the Mama Mia tip .... I will most definitely enjoy the sunset on their rooftop.

Muchas Gracias Senor


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## Longford

Mama Mia has a reputation for deliberately overcharging customers. It's fairly well-known for doing that, locally. I don't go there because of that. Neither do some of my friends who lie in SMA.

You can live economically in SMA. It'll take a little networking to find the right house/apartment/share arrangement that meets your financial situation. And there are mercados and other opportunities to make inexpensive purchases for food and household items. It's nice to have some of the expensive and touristy places around ... for special occassions. You'll do fine, with your attitude.


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## cherirae

Thanks Longford ..... appreciate your vote of confidence!


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## cuylers5746

*Concerns retiring in SMA*



cherirae said:


> Thanks again Cuyler .... your description of daily life is delightful. Especially enjoyed the story of the "warm" chicken! My greatest concern as a "senior" is living on my budget and being able to handle medical issues should they arise ..... I say greatest concern but not enough to keep me from trying.
> 
> Out of necessity (and a gypsy spirit of adventure) I do have some experience in finding budget ways to do things. Many years ago .... as a very young adult with two babies ......I followed my then airmen husband (he was 20 and I was 21) to Spain and, much to his surprise, I insisted we live on the economy. Having worked on an AFB, you have an idea of salary for a new airman. We spent 5 incredible years living in Alcala de Hennares and Madrid without any outside financial help. I put those babies (before I left there were four - a set of twins) in their stroller and ..... like a metro rat .... I was all over the area. At first I carried my little Spanish/American dictionary but very quickly became fluent in street Spanish. That experience taught me so much ... primary of which .... I love diversity and I can do better than survive ... I can, and did, thrive!
> 
> San Miguel has been on my radar for some time because of the Old World influence, the emphasis on the arts, the diversity and, yes, what I hope will be a manageable cost of living. I do meet the required monthly minimum established by Mexico but not a great deal more and my needs are few. I don't want to have a car .... I much prefer walking and public transportation and I don't require a lot of luxuries .... beans & tortillas and fresh produce can satisfy me (not to say I don't enjoy a 5 star restaurant - I just don't NEED to go to them.
> 
> Thanks or the Mama Mia tip .... I will most definitely enjoy the sunset on their rooftop.
> 
> Muchas Gracias Senor


Hi Cherirae again;

I shared those same concerns, but no more. Go on your 5 day trip and be sure to visit the local IMSS Clinic and they probably have a hospital there too, but don't know for sure? Go to Administration and ask for a tour. I think you might find it acceptable to you, it surely has been for us.

That way on any trip ANY WHERE in Mexico you're covered by the IMSS Medical System, even in the smallest of Pueblitos - they usually have a recent Medical School Graduate attending a local small clinic. Oh, and the $0 Co-payments, $0 Deductibiles, $0 for the Generic Drugs, $0 for Hospitalization, it really is a plus. If you're over 60 it's like only $330.00 / Year for you, but goes up with inflation. I mean how can you beat that with a stick? If they put you on an Medication, you will have to show up every month same approx. time on pre-appointment for Doctor to take your vital signs and discuss your health issues with you - in order to get the Drug refills. What would all that cost in USA?

That should put 98% of your worry about Medical Costs out of your mind? Yes, we sometimes
due to schedule conflict or not wanting to wait for a Specialists (which are the same top one's in private practice in our city), have to pay $500-800 pesos for a consultation at their office, and usually on the same day we call them.

So good luck hunting for your rental house. ABSOLUTELY BAD IDEA, buying first instead of renting for a year or so, for so many reasons.

Cuyler


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## cherirae

Really appreciate the medical info. I've been googling so many issues and get overwhelmed attempting to ferret out what is an advertisement and what is good information. So glad I found this forum and your great suggestions. My husband has heart problems. He is doing well right now but do need to prepare good options should he need immediate care. Thanks .....


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## Isla Verde

cherirae said:


> Really appreciate the medical info. I've been googling so many issues and get overwhelmed attempting to ferret out what is an advertisement and what is good information. So glad I found this forum and your great suggestions. My husband has heart problems. He is doing well right now but do need to prepare good options should he need immediate care. Thanks .....


Please be aware that IMSS does not cover care for some "pre-existing conditions", at least not for the first year or two. I fear that heart problems may be included in this category.


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## cherirae

Thanks Cuyler & Isla Verde ..... I will be checking IMSS and regulations re: pre-existing conditions.


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## conklinwh

I think that there is a new public clinic/hospital but expect that the private hospital, de la Fey is still a good option. I had a couple procedures done there and very good and cheaper than my deductible in the US. There is also a great pharmacist on the corner of Canal & Hernandez Macias in centro that is a great source.
Mama Mia ok, more of a hangout than restaurant. Never charged more than listed prices but then I always check. The great rooftop is really next door where enter through Pueblo Viejo.
I'm on a number of blogs in SMA and pretty amazing what you can get these days for very reasonable rental.


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## DNP

conklinwh said:


> I think that there is a new public clinic/hospital but expect that the private hospital, de la Fey is still a good option. I had a couple procedures done there and very good and cheaper than my deductible in the US. There is also a great pharmacist on the corner of Canal & Hernandez Macias in centro that is a great source.
> Mama Mia ok, more of a hangout than restaurant. Never charged more than listed prices but then I always check. The great rooftop is really next door where enter through Pueblo Viejo.
> I'm on a number of blogs in SMA and pretty amazing what you can get these days for very reasonable rental.


Would you mind sharing those blog, please. Thanks

Sent from my iPod touch using ExpatForum


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## cherirae

Thanks conklinwh for the medical info and the tip about Mama Mia's. Are there particular blogs I might find helpful?


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## Longford

cherirae said:


> Thanks conklinwh for the medical info and the tip about Mama Mia's. Are there particular blogs I might find helpful?


The Moderators, the rules of the forums, don't permit linking to such blogs. I did that recently and the link (to some comments there) was deleted with the message that links to "competitors" (my words) wasn't permitted here. Passing of such information is probably best accomplished by PM. There are a couple of local online groups you will find helpful.


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## cherirae

I'm new to this forum .... thanks for reminding me of the rules about linking. I do now remember reading that when I signed up.


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## jim42

Any Veteran Posts in SMA? Thanks, Jim


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## Longford

> Any Veteran Posts in SMA? Thanks, Jim


I believe there are both an American Legion and VFW post in San Miguel de Allende. 

Here's a listing of American Legion posts in Mexico, including SMA:

Directory of Posts in The American Legion Department of Mxico


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## jim42

Ok, thanks for the info. I was curious because I am retired AF.


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## robyngail

Don't know of any retired Military web sites for expats. But there are plenty of us around. What sort of questions do you have?


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## jim42

Just curious. I enjoy visiting AmLeg Posts and plan on coming down there in March. Visited PV 2 times and didn't care for it. Just returned from my 3rd visit to Merida and enjoyed it except the heat is brutual when one enjoys walking. Any suggestions on small clean hotels?


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## Longford

jim42 said:


> Just curious. I enjoy visiting AmLeg Posts and plan on coming down there in March. Visited PV 2 times and didn't care for it. Just returned from my 3rd visit to Merida and enjoyed it except the heat is brutual when one enjoys walking. Any suggestions on small clean hotels?


A couple of hotels which meet my needs and which I've enjoyed when visiting during the past 19 years:

Parador San Sebastian (San Miguel de Allende, Mexico) - Hotel Reviews - TripAdvisor

and,

Quinta Loreto (San Miguel de Allende, Mexico) - Hotel Reviews - TripAdvisor


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## mickisue1

Longford said:


> A couple of hotels which meet my needs and which I've enjoyed when visiting during the past 19 years:
> 
> Parador San Sebastian (San Miguel de Allende, Mexico) - Hotel Reviews - TripAdvisor
> 
> and,
> 
> Quinta Loreto (San Miguel de Allende, Mexico) - Hotel Reviews - TripAdvisor


I had to laugh at your high-falutin' taste in hotels, Longford!


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## TundraGreen

mickisue1 said:


> I had to laugh at your high-falutin' taste in hotels, Longford!


I wasn't sure if this comment was serious or tongue-in-cheek. So I looked at them, and I am still not sure. They look pretty upscale to me. You don't even have to share the room with strangers!


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## mickisue1

Hee. I was thinking about the comments about the bottomless pool at the second spot, with "floaties" in it!

I ALWAYS read the comments about hotels.

Whining about the desk clerk not being nice from one person is an outlier.

If ten comment, it might be an issue.

TripAdvisor kept me from staying in a hotel in So CA once, that had numerous comments about small itchy bites noticed after getting out of bed!


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## conklinwh

Longford said:


> A couple of hotels which meet my needs and which I've enjoyed when visiting during the past 19 years:
> 
> Parador San Sebastian (San Miguel de Allende, Mexico) - Hotel Reviews - TripAdvisor
> 
> and,
> 
> Quinta Loreto (San Miguel de Allende, Mexico) - Hotel Reviews - TripAdvisor


I don't have any knowledge of Parador San Sebastiian but I would now stay away from Quinta Loreto. It used to have reputation as a good sort of medium priced place but a lot of really bad experiences in the last year or so. It has been replaced for people in Pozos that want to stay late in San Miguel by an ex-monestary on Canal but can't remember the name.
I would guess that you could also make a pretty good deal at a B&B as this a dead period except for ironically the Day of the Dead.


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## jim42

*Airports*

Best airport to fly into.....QRO or BJX? Latter is about usd100 cheaper.


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## circle110

Since we live in Guanajuato, BJX is a no-brainer for us but every time we are there we see a lot of arrivals for San Miguel with their drivers (taxi, hired car etc.) waiting for them. That makes me think that it is a good option.

BJX is right about 1:20 from San Miguel and I'm guessing (I've never driven it myself) that QRO is just a little over an hour from SM. The relatively small difference in time and cost for transportation between the two balanced against the airline ticket savings may be the deciding factor in favor of BJX.


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## jim42

circle110 said:


> Since we live in Guanajuato, BJX is a no-brainer for us but every time we are there we see a lot of arrivals for San Miguel with their drivers (taxi, hired car etc.) waiting for them. That makes me think that it is a good option.
> 
> BJX is right about 1:20 from San Miguel and I'm guessing (I've never driven it myself) that QRO is just a little over an hour from SM. The relatively small difference in time and cost for transportation between the two balanced against the airline ticket savings may be the deciding factor in favor of BJX.


Thank you.....BJX it will be


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## conklinwh

Actually, QRO airport probably further as other side of QRO from San Miguel. Real question though is how do you plan to get to San Miguel from the airport. If an airport shuttle, then BJX is a no brainer as multiple reasonable shuttles to San Miguel while QRO requires a special and more costly deal.


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## cherirae

Bajiogo offers shuttle service from BJX and QRO to SMA for $28 U.S.


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## circle110

That is a very good deal. A taxi will cost almost that much just to Guanajuato City 20 minutes away.

It still looks like BJX is the winner for jim42 due to the lower cost of the airfare.


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## grotton

GordonLogan said:


> We moved from Seattle to San Miguel de Allende 10 years ago and have not regretted it for a minute. Send me an email when you arrive in San Miguel and we can have a coffee and I would be delighted to tell you why I like it here.
> Gordon Logan


Hi Gordon. We are in town. Can seem to send you a private message but I think you can message me. Lets get coffee.


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## jim42

Cool. Question answered without even asking. I have the website on my favorite list and now have to wait till 1st wk in Mar. Thank you for the info


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## conklinwh

cherirae said:


> Bajiogo offers shuttle service from BJX and QRO to SMA for $28 U.S.


I stayed away from specifics but we often use BajioGo. Unless they have changed recently, the difference was that trip to QRO required a minimum number of passengers, as did their SMA to Pozos link, that didn't exist with BJX. They also used to charge a premium for the QRO airport so good that no longer true.


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## ValRomx

The policies for the new visa categories were released last week and income requirements have been increased significantly from the $1,250 mentioned in your post. 

I'm not able to post the link to the official policy, but it's at "dof.gob.mx nota_detalle.php? codigo=5276966 &fecha=08/11/2012". Delete the spaces and you'll have the link. This document outlines (en espanol) the new regulations regarding visas.


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## 1happykamper

cuylers5746 said:


> Hi Cherirae;
> 
> ...
> As far as homes are concerned. We meet a nice couple while there; she originally from D.F. and he a Canadian. They were looking at new Townhomes to rent, a 2 bedroom just on outskirts of town for like $250.00 USD equivalent per month. Before renting, walk around the block and then neighboring blocks. Why? All blocks are definitely NOT created equal in Mexico! Some are so thick, wide, that you can rent a house with a huge backyard if you look in the right block - and then plant your Supersized Vegetable/Fruit Garden like you might have back home in Oklahoma.



Happy Tuesday to all,

I realize that this topic is getting old...but I assume my question is better placed here.

The quoted text above indicates a superb $250 rental value. Can anyone else chime in on similar rental costs both in and just outside of town in SMA? Thanks in advance.


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## Longford

1happykamper said:


> Happy Tuesday to all,
> 
> I realize that this topic is getting old...but I assume my question is better placed here.
> 
> The quoted text above indicates a superb $250 rental value. Can anyone else chime in on similar rental costs both in and just outside of town in SMA? Thanks in advance.


Chances of learning of such opportunities, on the internet, are slim. Best values are found once in SMA, and other destinations, and by asking around/networking, etc. Speaking Spanish affords the opportunity to find the best values, IMO. There's a good local forum for SMA to which you may want to join if you're seriously interested in locating there. This forum's rules prohibit my providing that infomation in this reply but if you can send me a PM if interested.


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## 1happykamper

Thanks Longford. I will track down those other forums. Meanwhile if anyone who is currently living in SMA would chime in that would be luverly.

Cheers,
John


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## conklinwh

1happykamper said:


> Thanks Longford. I will track down those other forums. Meanwhile if anyone who is currently living in SMA would chime in that would be luverly.
> 
> Cheers,
> John


We lived in SMA for 4 years and then decided to build outside SMA but I wouldn't call it just outside. As was pointed out earlier, these types of deals are hard to find in advance and you really need to be there. Also all blocks & areas in a colonia are not the same & I'd walk around as suggested but to check out more than whether a vegetable garden will fit.

We certainly know someone in SMA that found just such a deal with 3BR's, kitchen/greatroom and a rooftop with palapa for less than $250USD but it was definately word of mouth and the people renting wanted to see her and understand her plans as much as she wanted to talk.

Anything that anybody knows today in terms of a great deal will probably be gone before you can get there.

Not sure if you are bringing furniture/pet but one way to see a place is to look into house sitting. Not usually free but very reduced rates to give you time to look around.


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## GordonLogan

*coffee*



grotton said:


> Hi Gordon. We are in town. Can seem to send you a private message but I think you can message me. Lets get coffee.


Call me at ******we can get a time to have coffee.

Gordon


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## DNP

In the interest of full disclosure, are you a real estate agent? 



GordonLogan said:


> Call me at *******and we can get a time to have coffee.
> 
> Gordon


Northern Virginia, USA, and SMA, MEXICO


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## GordonLogan

No, I'm not. Are you?
Gordon


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## 1happykamper

*Blending in SMA*

I have read this thread with care but can't seem to find the information ...more of a feeling..that I need. 

I have watched several YouTube videos, many posts on several forums and what I SEE in videos has me concerned.

Perhaps the videos are all backed by real estate agents..because the affluence shown in all the short stories was very noticeable. Of course it may be wrong of me to measure a persons net worth just because they dress really well and are groomed to the nines...but still...ALL of the people in the vids looked the same. Hmmmm

What I have READ is that like most cities in Mexico there are good deals on rentals to be found and learning where to eat out and buy groceries takes a while to research. I want to blend in ...and not feel/look noticeably the poorest ****** in town!

I hope that I am clearlly communicating my concern. If you get where I am coming from and live, or did live in this beautiful town then would you mind commenting on facts verses my perception.

Cheers


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## conklinwh

1happykamper said:


> I have read this thread with care but can't seem to find the information ...more of a feeling..that I need.
> 
> I have watched several YouTube videos, many posts on several forums and what I SEE in videos has me concerned.
> 
> Perhaps the videos are all backed by real estate agents..because the affluence shown in all the short stories was very noticeable. Of course it may be wrong of me to measure a persons net worth just because they dress really well and are groomed to the nines...but still...ALL of the people in the vids looked the same. Hmmmm
> 
> What I have READ is that like most cities in Mexico there are good deals on rentals to be found and learning where to eat out and buy groceries takes a while to research. I want to blend in ...and not feel/look noticeably the poorest ****** in town!
> 
> I hope that I am clearlly communicating my concern. If you get where I am coming from and live, or did live in this beautiful town then would you mind commenting on facts verses my perception.
> 
> Cheers


Not exactly sure your point or frames of reference. One thing that we've found in Mexico is that gringos are typically the scruffiest of any group. There seems to be a culture difference in that gringos tend to dress down when in public and Mexicans tend to dress up. This really has no socio economic reality.
As to concern that what you are saying somehow relates to income. There is almost a bimodal distribution of incomes of gringos having places in SMA.
The original group came after WWII and used the GI bill to take art classes and live in converted monasteries. A lot of these stayed and sort of established the old guard that had a lot of "struggling" artists while many were successful. You can really see this group at the almost nightly gallery openings and around the biblioteca(library) that was the original base for serious charity work.
This also makes for great people watching in the Jardin about any day.

Starting around the late '90's and peaking just before 2008 was a 2nd group of gringos that was heavily sunbirds from Texas that bought large houses, were there part time, and basically kept to themselves with a lot less community involvement. 

This caused some significant friction in the ****** community and came to a head in 2006/7 which was a major reason we moved about 45min outside SMA.

The recession has pretty much calmed this down and in fact much of the latter group has been bought out by people from DF. In fact the whole tourism equation has shifted from 70-80% non-Mexican to majority Mexican.

Long note but my net is that there is not any one group of expats and everyone seems well able to find what they want. Again however as with any place, you really need experience for longer than a vacation.


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## 1happykamper

conklinwh said:


> Not exactly sure your point or frames of reference. One thing that we've found in Mexico is that gringos are typically the scruffiest of any group. There seems to be a culture difference in that gringos tend to dress down when in public and Mexicans tend to dress up. This really has no socio economic reality.
> As to concern that what you are saying somehow relates to income. There is almost a bimodal distribution of incomes of gringos having places in SMA.
> The original group came after WWII and used the GI bill to take art classes and live in converted monasteries. A lot of these stayed and sort of established the old guard that had a lot of "struggling" artists while many were successful. You can really see this group at the almost nightly gallery openings and around the biblioteca(library) that was the original base for serious charity work.
> This also makes for great people watching in the Jardin about any day.
> 
> Starting around the late '90's and peaking just before 2008 was a 2nd group of gringos that was heavily sunbirds from Texas that bought large houses, were there part time, and basically kept to themselves with a lot less community involvement.
> 
> This caused some significant friction in the ****** community and came to a head in 2006/7 which was a major reason we moved about 45min outside SMA.
> 
> The recession has pretty much calmed this down and in fact much of the latter group has been bought out by people from DF. In fact the whole tourism equation has shifted from 70-80% non-Mexican to majority Mexican.
> 
> Long note but my net is that there is not any one group of expats and everyone seems well able to find what they want. Again however as with any place, you really need experience for longer than a vacation.


Thanks so much for your input conklinwh. I'm glad to hear that current trend is more mexican influx... It may make a good base for several months...or I may stay longer...


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## conklinwh

1happykamper said:


> Thanks so much for your input conklinwh. I'm glad to hear that current trend is more mexican influx... It may make a good base for several months...or I may stay longer...


No problem! We are back visiting kids/grandkids for the holidays but back in Mexico before New Years. I go to San Miguel at least once/week as do banking and mail forwarding there.
Last lived there in 2006 but have a lot of friends.


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## GARYJ65

My suggestion: rent a house for about a year and when you know the areas you like, buy a lot and build a house within your budget and personal specs. You should be saving anywhere from 30 to 40 % from buying.



tejanoSMA said:


> San Miguel's real estate market is being held up by Mexico City folk but their demand typically does not go over $400k even in this top end ****** dominated town. Just 3 or 4 years ago one could sell a high end house for about twice its lot and construction price, resulting in neighborhoods of million dollar houses. As the market has trended down, buyers get much more for the buck from existing construction but remodeling costs have also fallen. Care must be taken to obtain and supervise quality construction, it is not as easy or risk free as one might think. Better value is now available from existing inventory. Your original question is correct in that Se Vende signs are everywhere. Many houses that do not have signs have been taken off the market because sellers are unwilling to show their houses when the chances of getting a good price are so low. This market is suffering from lack of ****** demand, a condition shared with expat communities across Mexico, in proportion to the percentage of gringos. An increase in cartel violence, terrorism or war is likely to make the situtation worse. America's fiscal cliff and stalemate in governing could make things better.
> 
> San Miguel is not the place for one looking to minimize expenses but more for one seeking an established expat community with little crime or violence. A beer at one of the cafes around the square will be one of the most expensive beers available in Mexico, but you can order it and talk with the next table in English about poetry readings and art gallery openings.
> 
> Mike


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