# It's that time again-assets reporting!



## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

With the Asset reporting form rearing its ugly head again, will those who missed it last time comply with the law, knowing the Hacienda might fine them for not reporting last year?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Well, according to last year's scaremongerers, those who reported will have had their assets removed by the greedy Spanish hacienda so won't have anything left to report......


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

I wouldn't have thought so.
I had a bloke I know, in his 70's , ask me last year " should I be doing this 720 thing ?"
I replied " do you declare for tax here ? " 
"No, i pay in the UK" ( This is someone, along with his wife, who has lived here over 12 years, is a permanent registered resident & is on the Spanish health system )
"Well then I wouldn't bother as they'll want to know where you've been for the last 11 years."

I know of at least 4/5 others ,all P/residents/health care, not in tax system. & none of these are the ones I referred to in the other thread.


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

gus-lopez said:


> I wouldn't have thought so.
> I had a bloke I know, in his 70's , ask me last year " should I be doing this 720 thing ?"
> I replied " do you declare for tax here ? "
> "No, i pay in the UK" ( This is someone, along with his wife, who has lived here over 12 years, is a permanent registered resident & is on the Spanish health system )
> ...


Shame on them- hope they get a nasty surprise!


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

Hacienda really should do an amnesty thing to get people exactly like that to step up and start declaring. The United States IRS requires a similar type of reporting (FBAR) and they have had several amnesty schemes just for that reason.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

kalohi said:


> Hacienda really should do an amnesty thing to get people exactly like that to step up and start declaring. The United States IRS requires a similar type of reporting (FBAR) and they have had several amnesty schemes just for that reason.


Ironically there was an amnesty before the 720 came into force. Something like 10% tax on all offshore funds brought back into Spain, no questions asked. Of course they were targeting the big time Spanish fraudsters and they were also the people Hacienda had in mind when they drew up the heavy fines. The expat community has been caught in the crossfire by this.


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

When is it due?


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

gus-lopez said:


> I wouldn't have thought so.
> I had a bloke I know, in his 70's , ask me last year " should I be doing this 720 thing ?"
> I replied " do you declare for tax here ? "
> "No, i pay in the UK" ( This is someone, along with his wife, who has lived here over 12 years, is a permanent registered resident & is on the Spanish health system )
> ...


You have a lot of friends getting bad advice!


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Aron said:


> You have a lot of friends getting bad advice!


To my knowledge none of them have ever asked for advice or attempted to even enquire whether they need to be in the system. They just moved here as though it was an extension of the UK.

With regards to the other 2 that have been attempting to register/ pay & keep being turned away well, After the last visit to Hacienda my friend insisted, having been told yet again " you pay in UK & don't need to here " , that in that case he wanted it in writing. A few phone calls , 30 minute wait & out popped a letter from Hacienda, Madrid complete with all his details, address, nie , etc; stating that as he paid in the UK he didn't have to register & pay here.
Now both he & I know that this shouldn't be the case but as he now has it in writing he's given up bothering.


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

gus-lopez said:


> To my knowledge none of them have ever asked for advice or attempted to even enquire whether they need to be in the system. They just moved here as though it was an extension of the UK.
> 
> With regards to the other 2 that have been attempting to register/ pay & keep being turned away well, After the last visit to Hacienda my friend insisted, having been told yet again " you pay in UK & don't need to here " , that in that case he wanted it in writing. A few phone calls , 30 minute wait & out popped a letter from Hacienda, Madrid complete with all his details, address, nie , etc; stating that as he paid in the UK he didn't have to register & pay here.
> Now both he & I know that this shouldn't be the case but as he now has it in writing he's given up bothering.


Then your friend needs a good gestor. My wife was nil tax out here to begin with. Everything was very straightforward


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

elenetxu said:


> When is it due?


You only need to do the Modelo 720 if you have assets worth more than €50,000 located outside Spain (property, savings etc). I believe the deadline for the declaration is 31 March, for assets as of 31 Dec 2013.

Your IRPF declaration for 2013 (i.e. income, rather than assets) must be made between 1 May and 30 June.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

I have just recently consulted a financial advisor, who has found us the means to avoid the annual declaration of financial overseas investments and the means to avoid death duties on the said investments.


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## Lolito (Aug 25, 2012)

I think our gestor told us that you only need to do it once (last year), and unless anything changes, like selling up your property, etc, then you don't need to do it again....?

Might give him a call, maybe I misunderstood.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Lolito said:


> I think our gestor told us that you only need to do it once (last year), and unless anything changes, like selling up your property, etc, then you don't need to do it again....?
> 
> Might give him a call, maybe I misunderstood.


Or if any increase by more than 20k euros. This would also include taking from one pot & increasing another by that amount or above.


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

Hepa said:


> I have just recently consulted a financial advisor, who has found us the means to avoid the annual declaration of financial overseas investments and the means to avoid death duties on the said investments.


Tax avoidance is frowned on these days by the vast majority in the UK, though tax avoidance is legal, the government aré closing loopholes, And the inland revenue aré scrutinising the legitamacy of them.


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

Hepa said:


> I have just recently consulted a financial advisor, who has found us the means to avoid the annual declaration of financial overseas investments and the means to avoid death duties on the said investments.


Do tell-might be the answer to my prayers!


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Aron said:


> Tax avoidance is frowned on these days by the vast majority in the UK, though tax avoidance is legal, the government aré closing loopholes, And the inland revenue aré scrutinising the legitamacy of them.


1. I do not reside in the U.K.

2. I am not avoiding paying tax.


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## el romeral (May 8, 2012)

If I owned property or had money held outside of Spain then I would do everything in my power to avoid this lot getting one cent of it. I think they have got a right nerve.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

extranjero said:


> Do tell-might be the answer to my prayers!


Seek out your nearest Blevins Franks financial management Ltd. and make an appointment for a consultation.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

el romeral said:


> If I owned property or had money held outside of Spain then I would do everything in my power to avoid this lot getting one cent of it. I think they have got a right nerve.


But they haven't, have they? And why do they'd 'have a nerve'?
I can't understand why so many immigrants are so upset about what is merely a declaración of assets. If these assets deliver an income and you are resident in Spain you declare and pay. 'Twas ever so.
If they don't yield an income there is no tax líability and it is sheer paranoia that has led some to think so.
Spain has every right to impose such taxes as it wishes.
We immigrants have a choice: pay up or leave.


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

Hepa said:


> Seek out your nearest Blevins Franks financial management Ltd. and make an appointment for a consultation.


Can you not give us some idea without revealing revealing private circumstances, since you have made a statement whetting our appetites?
Is it some Spanish compliant bond?


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> But they haven't, have they? And why do they'd 'have a nerve'?
> I can't understand why so many immigrants are so upset about what is merely a declaración of assets. If these assets deliver an income and you are resident in Spain you declare and pay. 'Twas ever so.
> If they don't yield an income there is no tax líability and it is sheer paranoia that has led some to think so.
> Spain has every right to impose such taxes as it wishes.
> We immigrants have a choice: pay up or leave.


I don't think it's the actual disclosure of assets that's the problem.I think what disturbs people is the intrusive nature and minute detail required. If there was a fraudulent activity on a bank account, would the bank say it was our own fault for giving every detail of our account?It does make some people feel vulnerable and insecure.


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

Hepa said:


> 1. I do not reside in the U.K.
> 
> 2. I am not avoiding paying tax.


I apologise, I thought death duties were taxes!


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

extranjero said:


> Can you not give us some idea without revealing revealing private circumstances, since you have made a statement whetting our appetites?
> Is it some Spanish compliant bond?


The man called it a "Wrapper" rather complicated, difficult to explain, at the moment I am waiting for his written report. It is all quite Spanish legal though and involves placing the wrapper of funds in Luxemburg.

I seriously suggest you visit Blevins Franks.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

I think Spain's approach is fairly lenient in comparison to others but I don't see any one being as vocal about it as here in Spain.
I wonder why that it is?

In Belgium you have to declare everything no matter what, assests, debts, overdrawn bank accounts, etc.. More intrusive and far more detail given.
There certainly wasn't any space like Spain give you.

Be thankful, it could be worse.


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## angil (Sep 24, 2012)

Could be much better. Which is why this particular 'immigrant' family will be both paying up and leaving, asap!!!!


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

Pazcat said:


> I think Spain's approach is fairly lenient in comparison to others but I don't see any one being as vocal about it as here in Spain.
> I wonder why that it is?
> 
> In Belgium you have to declare everything no matter what, assests, debts, overdrawn bank accounts, etc.. More intrusive and far more detail given.
> ...


Really? Just how much more intrusive could it be?
Hepa-The problem is, if anyone needs their money in the future eg for settling back in the UK, I presume this is not suitable for them?
Aron -death duty IS a tax!


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Well hey, you can have up to 50G doing whatever you like where you like and it's not a bother, no such breathing space elsewhere.

I don't buy that excuse anyway.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

extranjero said:


> I don't think it's the actual disclosure of assets that's the problem.I think what disturbs people is the intrusive nature and minute detail required. If there was a fraudulent activity on a bank account, would the bank say it was our own fault for giving every detail of our account?It does make some people feel vulnerable and insecure.


The reporting requirements here in Spain are no more intrusive than elsewhere, far less than in some countries. What you say about fraudulent activity is hypothetical and unlikely to affect asset reporting. Most British immigrants here aren't in the high net worth bracket so it seems pure paranoia that excites them over what is a fairly routine disclosure requirement. The really wealthy will as usual find ways to avoid declaring assets or tax due. 
The amount of data held on each one of us by commercial and governmental organisations is truly staggering, I'll agree. Now we can get worked up about NSA and MI5 trawling through our texts and e-mails. But frankly, I don't give a damn. I'm not planning terrorist outrages or indulging in any illegal activity - although embarassingly I keep getting unsolicited porn on my IPad! I guess it all keeps people in work..and us safe, on the whole.
A couple of years ago a friend in the UK was startled to receive a letter from Tesco asking her to return a jar of Hollandaise sauce she had bought, precise time and date appended, for product recall reasons. Of course she was tracked via her loyalty card which records all purchase for analysis so that customers may be targeted for special offers linked to buying habits. Sinister? Maybe? Helpful? Definitely.
There does seem to be a number of British immigrants here who are of the view that Spain is lucky to have them and should exempt them from any rules they find inconvenient - and I don't mean you.....
If we don't like the rules we should find somewhere more congenial to live.
Now I heard that the Central African Republic isn't that hot on gathering tax information...and it's very hot and sunny there...


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

extranjero said:


> Really? Just how much more intrusive could it be?
> Hepa-The problem is, if anyone needs their money in the future eg for settling back in the UK, I presume this is not suitable for them?
> Aron -death duty IS a tax!


I cannot answer your question, you should seek the help of a Financial Advisor.


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## el pescador (Mar 14, 2013)

A few (easy i hope) questions.

1.Is this if you were tax resident on the 31st Dec or resident on that date?
2.what happens if you have over 50k?...
3.I take it this is just to monitor any potential tax that needs to be paid from things like dividends, interest ,rent etc?


i think its a fair thing although i have noticed the allowances on cgt are quite a bit lower.

also we know the uk is a bit lax in the way they do things.
you can have money in shares (pay tax on interest on a savings bond) and still claimed benefits and they didnt find out .....not me but someone i know


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

el pescador said:


> A few (easy i hope) questions.
> 
> 1.Is this if you were tax resident on the 31st Dec or resident on that date?
> 2.what happens if you have over 50k?...
> ...


If you are tax resident in Spain now, and had assets OUTSIDE SPAIN worth over €50k on 31 Dec 2013, you are supposed to declare them using Modelo 720. You won't be taxed on them - you should already be declaring interest, rent etc as part of your income.

This was brought in last year to stop wealthy Spaniards hiding their wealth overseas to avoid paying tax, but some expats seem to think it's aimed at them.


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

It is!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

angil said:


> Could be much better. Which is why this particular 'immigrant' family will be both paying up and leaving, asap!!!!


Then you'll cease to be 'immigrants' and become 'emigrants'...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

extranjero said:


> It is!


Do you mean 'it is' as 'it is aimed at British immigrants?
If so, it's just not the case. It applies to Spaniards and also Brits, Swedes, Germans, Russians, Poles, every single variety of immigrant that is on Spanish soil.
If you sincerely believe this measure is aimed at getting money out of little old lady immigrants with a bungalow in Sussex or British immigrants with non-productive assets in the UK and no other nationality...you're wrong.
As Alcalaina says, it's mainly aimed at catching those wealthy Spaniards as well as others who have offshore and other overseas productive assets and are hoping to stay under the radar.

If I've misunderstood you and you didn't mean that apologies and please disregard the above.
OH has assets and has discussed and arranged everything via a suitably qualified professional. I keep my assets below the 50k level by a dedicated spending programme....no way do I wish to die with any amount of cash in the bank. I'm helping the local economy!
We have no cause for concerns and are satisfied with what is required.

And yes, Blevin Franks does have innovative and 100% legal solutions. We know them well and are personally acquainted with the head honcho at our local office. Highly recommended.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Just reading the last few pages regarding the 720 /Brits etc ; reminded me that I know & speak to quite a few Germans; Austrians ; Dutch & a Swiss couple all of whom live here permanently whilst paying non-resident taxes. They aren't in the system at all , yet many have lived here for longer than I have !


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

gus-lopez said:


> Just reading the last few pages regarding the 720 /Brits etc ; reminded me that I know & speak to quite a few Germans; Austrians ; Dutch & a Swiss couple all of whom live here permanently whilst paying non-resident taxes. They aren't in the system at all , yet many have lived here for longer than I have !


Perhaps the Hacienda would like to know!


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## JaneyO (Sep 24, 2012)

Hepa said:


> The man called it a "Wrapper" rather complicated, difficult to explain, at the moment I am waiting for his written report. It is all quite Spanish legal though and involves placing the wrapper of funds in Luxemburg.
> 
> I seriously suggest you visit Blevins Franks.


After doing the 720 last year- the world hasn't ended-yet- (although I was worried it might), I moved the assets into Spanish Tax compliant bonds. Now I don't know whether I am supposed to do another 720 this year as the bank accounts class is now below the limit, and I don't even know if Spanish compliant bonds appear on the form. Just wouldn't like them to think I have the bonds AND money in the bank. My gestor said it had to be done every year but he would say that at 90 euro a time wouldn't he. Is there anything on the form about compliant bonds as that class will have increased, while the bank class has varied- downwards. Don't know what to do.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

JaneyO said:


> After doing the 720 last year- the world hasn't ended-yet- (although I was worried it might), I moved the assets into Spanish Tax compliant bonds. Now I don't know whether I am supposed to do another 720 this year as the bank accounts class is now below the limit, and I don't even know if Spanish compliant bonds appear on the form. Just wouldn't like them to think I have the bonds AND money in the bank. My gestor said it had to be done every year but he would say that at 90 euro a time wouldn't he. Is there anything on the form about compliant bonds as that class will have increased, while the bank class has varied- downwards. Don't know what to do.


They don't need to be on there as they have already been declared to Hacienda. However, having said that, I did put them on the form "just in case".

They are not a specific class in themselves, they just get mentioned with any other 'securities'.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

JaneyO said:


> After doing the 720 last year- the world hasn't ended-yet- (although I was worried it might), I moved the assets into Spanish Tax compliant bonds. Now I don't know whether I am supposed to do another 720 this year as the bank accounts class is now below the limit, and I don't even know if Spanish compliant bonds appear on the form. Just wouldn't like them to think I have the bonds AND money in the bank. My gestor said it had to be done every year but he would say that at 90 euro a time wouldn't he. Is there anything on the form about compliant bonds as that class will have increased, while the bank class has varied- downwards. Don't know what to do.


Find a different gestor - mine charged €15.


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

JaneyO said:


> After doing the 720 last year- the world hasn't ended-yet- (although I was worried it might), I moved the assets into Spanish Tax compliant bonds. Now I don't know whether I am supposed to do another 720 this year as the bank accounts class is now below the limit, and I don't even know if Spanish compliant bonds appear on the form. Just wouldn't like them to think I have the bonds AND money in the bank. My gestor said it had to be done every year but he would say that at 90 euro a time wouldn't he. Is there anything on the form about compliant bonds as that class will have increased, while the bank class has varied- downwards. Don't know what to do.


can you telll me:

Can I ask you why Spanish compliant bonds seem to be gaining popularity? I am curious to know how they work.
Without having to see a professional adviser at this stage, 
What made you move your assets to these bonds?
Is there a high setup charge, commission or fees to manage them?
Do you need over a certain amount of money to invest?
It seems these are being offered as a means of avoiding Spanish Inheritance tax, which is obviously good, but there must be disadvantages.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Find a different gestor - mine charged €15.


Yes, €90 is a trifle OTT. The work involved is neither time-consuming nor rocket science.


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

Apparently, according to my email, there was a reply by JaneyO to my query, but it isn't there!


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> Find a different gestor - mine charged €15.


Ours charged 400€, but there was a lot to do.

One other thing I have just found out, if your investments show any growth in value, then that growth must be shown on your tax return in Spain, and will be liable for taxation.


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## Turtles (Jan 9, 2011)

You mean REALISED growth, I take it?


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

extranjero said:


> can you telll me:
> 
> Can I ask you why Spanish compliant bonds seem to be gaining popularity? I am curious to know how they work.
> Without having to see a professional adviser at this stage,
> ...


Like any investment via an IFA or broker, there will be charges to pay. There are no additional ones if any funds are held within a Spanish wrapper.

I moved all my investments to a Spanish wrapper some years ago. I was told by Hacienda that otherwise, I would have to pay tax on the entire amount! Under the new wrapper, I only pay for what I realize (withdraw). If the fund grows by 10% and I want to withdraw 10% of the fund, then I only pay tax (24.75% ish) on 10% of 10% .


You really must seek professional help on this. If you want some more info, then I have a good diagram which explains this aspect of the wrapper. PM me and I can send it to you.


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

snikpoh said:


> Like any investment via an IFA or broker, there will be charges to pay. There are no additional ones if any funds are held within a Spanish wrapper.
> 
> I moved all my investments to a Spanish wrapper some years ago. I was told by Hacienda that otherwise, I would have to pay tax on the entire amount! Under the new wrapper, I only pay for what I realize (withdraw). If the fund grows by 10% and I want to withdraw 10% of the fund, then I only pay tax (24.75% ish) on 10% of 10% .
> 
> ...


Thanks, but it's probably too late to change everything now.It's something I should have done a long time ago.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

See here are benefits to only having limited funds, is the only wrapper I have to worry about is the one around my Twix:hug:


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

On the eye on Spain forum, I have seen a post saying that a company has denounced Spain to the Eu because of the assets law and the way it has been formulated, with its punitive aspects.Good for them!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

extranjero said:


> On the eye on Spain forum, I have seen a post saying that a company has denounced Spain to the Eu because of the assets law and the way it has been formulated, with its punitive aspects.Good for them!


But there is no mechanism for anyone, individual or company, to 'denounce' any EU member state...and why should Spain or any other EU state tailor its fiscal policies to suit disgruntled British immigrants?

That Forum is chiefly composed of whingers and phantastists.
Nothing shopping anyone from buying a one- way Ryanaor ticket..


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Nothing shopping anyone from buying a one- way Ryanaor ticket..


You're going to have to stop posting from your iPad!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> You're going to have to stop posting from your iPad!


I know...I'm back on my notebook. Honestly, this is making me angry. I'm sure the Spanish Government is shaking in its boots at the thought of being 'denounced' to the EU. What 'punitive' measures are being imposed? Why should the Government of Spain,elected by the Spanish people, mould its tax policies to the wishes of a few timorous British immigrants? What would they think if the British Government consulted Romanian and Bulgarian immigrants before sending out any tax form?
More importantly, what would the average Spanish person think if they read some of these posts? Why should British immigrants be given preferential treatment?
I very much doubt that any of us posting here are wealthy individuals. We have been asked to decare assets to the value of less than £45k. No mention has been made of any new tax to follow this reasonable request.
What kind of assets would be non-productive? Not investments. Not properties accruing rental income. Those should be declared anyway.
That other forum mentioned is worth a look if only for a laugh. It's got loads of people posting who made bad or foolish choices, lost money and now blame Spain and the Spaniards for all their misfortunes.  
The bottom line is this: if you lie awake at night fearful that the greedy rapacious claws of Hacienda are going to nip at your assets...the solution is in your fingertips...ryanair.com


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

I don't think it' s the fact that assets have to be declared , although why should we bare our financial souls to God knows who-it's the draconian , out of proportion penalties.Sure, punish fraud but inadvertent mistakes or omissions Should not warrant fines of many thousands, especially when acting on the sometimes conflicting advice of accountants.


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## Turtles (Jan 9, 2011)

Although _de jure_ this measure affects all residents of Spain it is a _de facto_ imposition on foreigners, who are proportionally far more likely to own assets abroad than are the natives. This is why it is entirely justified for readers of this forum to be hopping mad.


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

Exactly
When I said that on another forum, I was accused of being patronising!
It's obvious that very wealthy Spaniards will find a way of hiding assets, whereas the rest are unlikely to have many assets abroad.
Ex pats have always been a cash cow, or golden goose.kk


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## Turtles (Jan 9, 2011)

Cash cow or not, we stick out and can't vote.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Turtles said:


> Cash cow or not, we stick out and can't vote.


You can leave the country, though. British immigrants in Spain are not as a group wealthy. Fact. These are non-productive assets. Fact.
There are penalties for non-disclosure. That's normal. Fact. Report as required and you won't be fined. Fact.
If the Spanish Government is aiming at any group of immigrants it won't be Brits in Benidorm, Torremolinos or even Marbella. The truly wealthy here are Russians and those from the Emirates.
Why aren't Scandinavians, Germans and Dutch whingeing, I wonder? No, it's always the Brits, some of whom seem to think we should send a gunboat to dealwith these uppity Johnny foreigners.
Newsflash: Queen Victoria is dead. We no longer have an Empire. When we decide to live abroad in someone else's country, we don't make the rules..
Spain..love it or leave it. I love it.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

extranjero said:


> Exactly
> When I said that on another forum, I was accused of being patronising!
> It's obvious that very wealthy Spaniards will find a way of hiding assets, whereas the rest are unlikely to have many assets abroad.
> *Ex pats have always been a cash cow, or golden goose*.kk


Can you produce evidence for that statement, though? In what way are we 'cash cows'?
Of course British immigrants are more likely to have assets abroad back home - in the UK. That's because they are immigrants. They are also more likely than Spanish people to try to evade Spanish taxation requirements in the following ways: by renting property in Spain for holiday lets and not declaring the income;by renting their houses in the UK and not declaring the income;by driving UK plated cars to avoid road tax;by not registering as residents thus avoiding any taxes whatsoever;by employing people on the black;by working on the black;by fraudulently claiming UK welfare benefits; by being resident in Spain but pretending to 'live' in the UK so they can fraudulently receive free NHS health care to which they are not entitled.
That's not to mention the cowboy builders, tv installers, mechanics and so on, plus of course the criminals and those hoping to hide to avoid alimony and child support.
We are not a bunch of angels.
Of course those I've described are not representative of anything but a minority of British immigrants here but you have only to read posts from people like Xavia on this forum to know that it's a sizeable minority.
Nobody pointed a gun at our heads to come to Spain, did they
As for asking information....that's what HMRC does. Nothing unusual. I declare my productive assets to all relevant tax authorities.. Everyone does....or should.
Penalties: I personally welcome harsh penalties for those who try to stay under the tax radar. I'd impose jail sentences on those who leech off the rest of us by not declaring and paying tax due on productive assets.
At the end of the day if we don't like the rules for living in Spain we have a home to go to.


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## Turtles (Jan 9, 2011)

I don't know why you are standing up for the corrupt quasi fascists in charge of Spain. They seem to be opposed to every other principle I have seen you espouse on this forum.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Turtles said:


> I don't know why you are standing up for the corrupt quasi fascists in charge of Spain. They seem to be opposed to every other principle I have seen you espouse on this forum.


With respect, that is a bit of a non-sequitur, isn't it...I could well ask why you are standing up for whingeing Brits who don't seem to understand the distinction between a request for information and a tax levy and who seem to think that rules in Spain should be made for their benefit. 
Now...I have chosen, like you, to live in Spain. The current Government was voted into office by the people of Spain. Whether it is indeed correct or accurate to describe it as 'quasi fascist' I'm not sure. Fascist is a term thrown about far too easily. Thatcher was often described as fascist, totally inaccurately. I would describe this government as inept and authoritarian and yes, it most certainly is corrupt. But I suspect that a similar tax regime would have been set in place by any Spanish Government, whether of Left or Right, since there is widespread tax evasion by wealthy Spaniards, of whom there are a lot more than you seem to think. Check it out on google. Wealthy Spaniards like wealthy people of any nationality try to evade tax and Spaniards are no exception. They are not a nation of tomato-growers and donkey riders. Spaniards too have overseas assets.
If I thought that living under this or any Spanish Government was totally against my principles I'd leave the country. What I shall do is to work actively against this PP Government in the Euro-elections on May 24th. That's my protest.
Now...how about addressing my argument which is simply this:
Modelo 720 is a request for information. It is not a tax demand.
Productive assets should have been declared and any tax due paid before Modelo 720 was introduced.

By the way, the only example of a non-productive asset I can think of is a house in the UK used by someone who lives in Spain for a limited period of time and who doesn't rent it out or gain any income from it when they are not resident.
But then they do not need to be Spanish tax residents so the requirement wouldn't apply..
Can you help me out by suggesting any other kind of non-productive asset? Very unlikely anyone would keep 50k euro in a current account....


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> Can you produce evidence for that statement, though? In what way are we 'cash cows'?
> Of course British immigrants are more likely to have assets abroad back home - in the UK. That's because they are immigrants. They are also more likely than Spanish people to try to evade Spanish taxation requirements in the following ways: by renting property in Spain for holiday lets and not declaring the income;by renting their houses in the UK and not declaring the income;by driving UK plated cars to avoid road tax;by not registering as residents thus avoiding any taxes whatsoever;by employing people on the black;by working on the black;by fraudulently claiming UK welfare benefits; by being resident in Spain but pretending to 'live' in the UK so they can fraudulently receive free NHS health care to which they are not entitled.
> That's not to mention the cowboy builders, tv installers, mechanics and so on, plus of course the criminals and those hoping to hide to avoid alimony and child support.
> We are not a bunch of angels.
> ...


surprisingly, I agree with nearly everything you say! I hate those who live under the radar etc
The expat community is regarded as rich and therefore ripe for milking whether it be for fines for minor offences, that Spaniards may avoid, work licences,
Certificates, etc
No one should fear harsh disproportionate fines for simple mistakes or omissions. People respond better to a carrot than to a stick. Those who fear the wrath of the Hacienda are now not likely to comply


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> Can you produce evidence for that statement, though? In what way are we 'cash cows'?
> Of course British immigrants are more likely to have assets abroad back home - in the UK. That's because they are immigrants. They are also more likely than Spanish people to try to evade Spanish taxation requirements in the following ways: by renting property in Spain for holiday lets and not declaring the income;by renting their houses in the UK and not declaring the income;by driving UK plated cars to avoid road tax;by not registering as residents thus avoiding any taxes whatsoever;by employing people on the black;by working on the black;by fraudulently claiming UK welfare benefits; by being resident in Spain but pretending to 'live' in the UK so they can fraudulently receive free NHS health care to which they are not entitled.
> That's not to mention the cowboy builders, tv installers, mechanics and so on, plus of course the criminals and those hoping to hide to avoid alimony and child support.
> We are not a bunch of angels.
> ...


surprisingly, I agree with nearly everything you say! I hate those who live under the radar etc
The expat community is regarded as rich and therefore ripe for milking whether it be for fines for minor offences, that Spaniards may avoid, work licences,
Certificates, etc
No one should fear harsh disproportionate fines for simple mistakes or omissions. People respond better to a carrot than to a stick. Those who fear the wrath of the Hacienda are now not likely to comply
:bathbaby::bathbaby:


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## Turtles (Jan 9, 2011)

Among the assets that I have had to declare under threat of a 5000 euro fine are the £11(sic) I have in a bank account that I haven't used since 1987. I woke up sweating last spring when I remembered that one three days after I'd submitted the declaration. Please don't tell me I'm worrying about nothing. As I have said, I have no voice in the elections here. If I get pushed around by the authorities the PP might even get some votes out of it.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Turtles said:


> Among the assets that I have had to declare under threat of a 5000 euro fine are the £11(sic) I have in a bank account that I haven't used since 1987. I woke up sweating last spring when I remembered that one three days after I'd submitted the declaration. Please don't tell me I'm worrying about nothing. As I have said, I have no voice in the elections here. If I get pushed around by the authorities the PP might even get some votes out of it.


Two points here: as you say, it was a mere £11...but a request for disclosure is a request. Don't you think it's just a tad paranoiac to assume that you'd be fined for omitting such a trivial sum? And if you were, you could be a poster boy/girl for every disgruntled British immigrant in Spain.
Second point: you presumably knew before you came here that your opportunities for voting were limited to municipal and European elections.
I have no idea why you think that anyone would be interested in the slightest to the PP 'pushing you around' ...how exactly are they doing that? I do think some immigrants are exaggerating their importance as well as their financial clout.
Tonight is the deadline for self-declaration for HMRC...very searching questions there including declaration of all assets wherever held. As I am liable for tax in the UK too I do as required.
The political complexion of the government of the UK or Spain is really irrelevant. By remaining here in Spain you accept the government's authority. I don't like the UK Coalition but I don't moan about filling in a tax form.
Can I ask again: apart from the instances I cited, what constitutes a non-productive asset?


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## Turtles (Jan 9, 2011)

I hope you are not implying that I object to all this because I am attempting to defraud one or both countries. It is because I am one of the few scrupulous and honest people that I have met here (of any nationality) that I am so annoyed. This productive/unproductive distinction you mention is not relevant. We have always been taxed on the productive, but we have never had to give such an absurd and time-consuming level of detail about it.

I take it you did not have the pleasure of filling out the form for yourself last year.You will have missed out on the morning in the ayuntamiento getting the digital certificate, on that queasy feeling of entering bank account numbers after ignoring the "DO NOT PROCEED. This site is insecure" message from Google, the frustration in wondering what exactly equates to a NIF when declaring foreign securities.....

I could be the best tax inspector Spain has ever had. I wouldn't waste my time trying to hunt down the ghosts. I'd go straight for the (preferably foreign) unfortunate few who have tried to tell me everything in the 720. In a form that complicated and badly designed I can guarantee that everyone's made a mistake.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

extranjero said:


> surprisingly, I agree with nearly everything you say! I hate those who live under the radar etc
> The expat community is regarded as rich and therefore ripe for milking whether it be for fines for minor offences, that Spaniards may avoid, work licences,
> Certificates, etc
> _*No one should fear harsh disproportionate fines for simple mistakes or omissions. People respond better to a carrot than to a stick. Those who fear the wrath of the Hacienda are now not likely to comply*_


Yup!! !! Spot on!! Sad but true.

But again, what evidence do you have that the immigrant community is regarded as 'rich'? We're in the main a bunch of pensioners. 
Fines for minor offences: three times I have inadvertently committed a 'minor offence' and been apprehended by GC Trafico or Policia Local. In each case I've been told politely what I've done that I shouldn't have, been told not to do it again, I've apologised...no fine. Once I was driving a new Mercedes convertible...(I'm not rich, I sold it to pay the first year's rent on our house) but by your logic the police should have squeezed every cent out of me.
Work licences: as I said in my previous post, British immigrants are most probably as adept at avoiding licences as Spaniards. But I have admittedly no evidence for that, as you have no evidence for your assertions
I think it may be that some British immigrants don't realise that there is a huge difference in the way Spanish police expect to be treated. I learnt that very rapidly.
The 'How dare you speak to me like that! You are a public servant!' approach does not go down well. I suspect that quite a few British immigrants when stopped by the GC or police display 'attitude'...so the response they get is more severe than if they had adopted a more respectful approach. We aren't imperial overlords here, we're immigrants.
And I'm puzzled as to why some of us refer to British 'expats' but Romanian, Bulgarian, Polish, Ethiopian etc. 'immigrants'? I have yet to hear or read the term 'Romanian expat'.
Could that be a manifestation of how some of us think we are a cut above?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

mrypg9 said:


> Yup!! !! Spot on!! Sad but true.
> 
> But again, what evidence do you have that the immigrant community is regarded as 'rich'? We're in the main a bunch of pensioners.
> Fines for minor offences: three times I have inadvertently committed a 'minor offence' and been apprehended by GC Trafico or Policia Local. In each case I've been told politely what I've done that I shouldn't have, been told not to do it again, I've apologised...no fine. Once I was driving a new Mercedes convertible...(I'm not rich, I sold it to pay the first year's rent on our house) but by your logic the police should have squeezed every cent out of me.
> ...


I've just realised my first sentence in reply to your highlighted sentence is badly phrased and open to misinterpretation so to clarify: it's true that no-one need fear harsh treatment at the hands of hacienda because if they do what they must and report there's nothing to fear, is there..
But I strongly disagree about carrot and stick. And are you suggesting people should be offered a 'carrot' for obeying a rule? If so , in what form? Shall I suggest to HMRC they give me a voucher for a night at the Ritz -with dinner of course - for filling in my tax form?
You know, there is no need for anyone to jump to the conclusion that Modelo 720 is a fiendish plot by hacienda to squeeze a few euros from British immigrants. It's not the case and tbh it's unfair to needlessly frighten people.
I'm still interested to learn what could be construed as an 'unproductive asset'?
You like every other decent law-abiding immigrant will have declared income from productive assets...rents, dividends, income from pension funds and so on.
So what's left to be taxed on?
I'm guessing that all this fuss is because the Bank of Cyprus took money from account holders with balances of over 100000 euros last year or the year before, can't remember when.
This grab was confined to deposit account holders of one bank, resident on the island, if I remember rightly and was a measure intended to deal with very specific circumstancesof the time.
Not relevant to Spain.
Of course some may like to think it could apply at some point in the future...there could be a tax on non-productive assets, whatever they are.
Yes it could happen. And I could be Miss World 2014...


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## Turtles (Jan 9, 2011)

mrypg9;3010481
I'm still interested to learn what could be construed as an 'unproductive asset'?
You like every other decent law-abiding immigrant will have declared income from productive assets...rents said:


> Not the point!
> It's the massive level of detail they want on ALL assets even if they have already been taxed. The massive level of detail is bound to lead to errors. I am certain that my lengthy declaration contained unintentional errors or details that I had to change so that they would fit into a form not designed to list premium bonds, friendly society savings products etc
> Errors = huge fines. If you say that's not true then Hacienda would disagree with you.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Turtles said:


> Not the point!
> It's the massive level of detail they want on ALL assets even if they have already been taxed. The massive level of detail is bound to lead to errors. I am certain that my lengthy declaration contained unintentional errors or details that I had to change so that they would fit into a form not designed to list premium bonds, friendly society savings products etc
> Errors = huge fines. If you say that's not true then Hacienda would disagree with you.


Ahhh...so we agree there's nothing to be feared about the principle. You are fearful lest you make an error or omission in reporting. I think many people are -needlessly - fearful about filling in all kinds of forms. I'm no exception - I've had to ask a friend to help me sort out paperwork for a minor operation - but I'm not making a song and dance about it and needlessly alarming other immigrants who may be in my position.
If I were worried about omissions etc. or where to set down assets the form seemingly had no space for I'd do what I usually do in such cases...write on an additional sheet.
Why should complicated forms result in errors? I'm sure you are an intelligent person, fully capable of filling in a form however complex and seeking guidance when in doubt.
We will only know that errors will result in huge fines when someone is actually given a huge fine for a misreporting of an asset of little value. To say so at this point is sheer supposition.
Your argument has shifted from not being able to vote to calling the government corrupt - true - and quasi-fascist - arguable- to difficulties of correctly filling in a form to complaining about the level of detail required.
I'm wondering if you have run a business of any size in the UK and had to deal with the requirements of government and local government agencies, new laws relating to hiring and firing of staff, health and safety regulations and so on...Now I'd agree there's ample cause to complain about these, necessary though most if not all are.
So, basically, we agree: nothing to worry about here apart from making a mistake when filling in the form...
Incidentally, HMRC are demanding and I'm querying a sizeable amount of what they say is unpaid tax. Their incompetence in this matter is simplybreathtaking. Points raised in my correspondence have been ignored and several different people -temporary agency staff? - have replied seemingly unaware of the 'case history'.
The amount they claim I owe is mounting up and I'm wondering if I'll be apprehended next time I go to the UK as I understand one can be over an alleged debt to HMRC.
Tbh, I'm rather looking forward to that as it will give me the opportunity to tell the world via The Daily Mail -'British Pensioner detained over tax error claim'-just how incompetent this UK agency is...never mind hacienda!


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## Turtles (Jan 9, 2011)

If you had made this declaration you would know that there is no additional sheet. It's (insecure) website or nothing.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Turtles said:


> If you had made this declaration you would know that there is no additional sheet. It's (insecure) website or nothing.


I didn't need to make a declaration, not since a couple of years ago! I keep my 'assets' below any need to report them.

So you just have to fill in where you can. Nothing odd about that. A tax specialist would surely help out.
But none of what you say disproves my point that no-one need lose any sleep over this.
As I've asked several times as to what other unproductive assets there are apart from those I listed I'll assum there are none.
So you are worried that you may have incorrectly filled in a form or your gestor/tax consultant/accountant has on your behalf and you may be fined...
Well, I'm sure you are worrying needlessly about hacienda and I may have more reason than you to get in trouble with HMRC.
There is indeed vast incompetence here as elsewhere in the world. My partner applied four years ago for her health card and is still waiting. Today she was told that she has never been entered in the system...although she sent a scanned copy of the Seg. Soc. document bearing her SS registration number she was given, with a promise that she would receive her card 'soon'.
Now that's a good reason for annoyance and frustration but she doesn't moan about the Spanish Government or threaten to leave Spain.
She just rolls her eyes in resignation...


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

mrypg9-just a bunch of pensioners? There are some very rich pensioners about, two or more homes, latest cars and no doubt lots of overseas assets etc!
When I say carrot not stick I just mean that no one should be fearful because they made a simple mistake or omission on a form. How will the Hacienda get people to comply if they issue huge disproportionate fines or the threat of them;as you say we need to know if this has actually occurred..Of course deliberate fraud should mean lock 'em up and throw away the key.
With regards to licences etc-I wonder what would happen if a town hall official knocked on the door of a Spanish person and asked to see the Obra menors and mayors for the extension, walls, tiling etc.
I've heard it said that Spanish people laugh at us for worrying about these things.
Example-we heard that a resident here had been fined when the police stopped him, looked in the car boot and fined him for not having a danger sign in his window for carrying a gas bottle. Dutifully, we went to the hard ware shop and bought one. The young Spanish lad serving us( son of a local Councillor) laughed with his mate and said"you'll never see a Spaniard using one of those!"


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

I must admit that I do agree with both Turtles & Extranjero. It is 'pokenosing' nothing else. If I have an account in the UK ,or anywhere else that contains a large sum of money that does not earn interest , what is it to do with HMRC ? Nothing. They don't ask for it to be declared. So why should the Spanish. & why all the detail ? 
It is quite simple . Fall foul of them & they can embargo the account using all the details that you have supplied, applying to a Spanish court & then using a European court order to enforce it in the UK or other EU country. 
This is why you should declare it as asked , complete with all details required, submit it , then change all the accounts. There is no requirement to advise them of changes of account details only on increases in value. If by chance you have to make another declaration due to 20k+ increase then submit the new details then change again. 
I have all my life ensured that anything I do is my business & mine only whilst legally using any means to ensure that know one knows what is going on. Only me.

P.S. Gas bottle is nonsense. You can legally carry multiple bottles, max 4 I believe, up to a maximum of 15kgs.On board GLP ( LPG) tanks for motorhomes or dual fueled vehicles are not subject to these rules but have separate ones.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

gus-lopez said:


> There is no requirement to advise them of changes of account details only on increases in value..


Are you certain of that Gus? We had to move our savings to a different bank after the demise of the Co-op, but the value has gone down because we transferred some over here. If that's true you've saved me a trip to the gestor.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

extranjero said:


> mrypg9-just a bunch of pensioners? There are some very rich pensioners about, two or more homes, latest cars and no doubt lots of overseas assets etc!
> When I say carrot not stick I just mean that no one should be fearful because they made a simple mistake or omission on a form. How will the Hacienda get people to comply if they issue huge disproportionate fines or the threat of them;as you say we need to know if this has actually occurred..Of course deliberate fraud should mean lock 'em up and throw away the key.
> With regards to licences etc-I wonder what would happen if a town hall official knocked on the door of a Spanish person and asked to see the Obra menors and mayors for the extension, walls, tiling etc.
> I've heard it said that Spanish people laugh at us for worrying about these things.
> Example-we heard that a resident here had been fined when the police stopped him, looked in the car boot and fined him for not having a danger sign in his window for carrying a gas bottle. Dutifully, we went to the hard ware shop and bought one. The young Spanish lad serving us( son of a local Councillor) laughed with his mate and said"you'll never see a Spaniard using one of those!"



All anecdote, though, isn't it...All 'I wonder if..'.
On the subject of fines: I would have thought it axiomatic that heavy fines are more of a deterrent than a slap on the wrist.
As for 'rich' pensioners...Is your definition of 'rich' someone with more money than you, I wonder
We had two cars until a couple of years ago. We have a comfortable joint income and OH has sizeable overseas assets.
But rich? No way. Compared to someone eking out the 'dream in the sun' on a state retirement pension, well, yes. Compared to the Arab down the road who's bought a lare house and had a local building company in there doing massive reformas..no.
What I can't understand is this: if the mere thought of filling in a form makes you fear that life in Spain might be difficult, if all these things you describe upset you: why on earth are you here? Why not simply go home where you can live in peace undisturbed by these presky Spaniards and their impertinent demands?
I just don't understand why you put up with it. We did three years in Prague, decided we didn't like it...and moved. We didn't stay and complain.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

gus-lopez said:


> I must admit that I do agree with both Turtles & Extranjero. It is 'pokenosing' nothing else. *If I have an account in the UK ,or anywhere else that contains a large sum of money that does not earn interest *, what is it to do with HMRC ? Nothing. They don't ask for it to be declared. So why should the Spanish. & why all the detail ?
> It is quite simple . Fall foul of them & they can embargo the account using all the details that you have supplied, applying to a Spanish court & then using a European court order to enforce it in the UK or other EU country.
> This is why you should declare it as asked , complete with all details required, submit it , then change all the accounts. There is no requirement to advise them of changes of account details only on increases in value. If by chance you have to make another declaration due to 20k+ increase then submit the new details then change again.
> I have all my life ensured that anything I do is my business & mine only whilst legally using any means to ensure that know one knows what is going on. Only me.
> ...


Err...yes, they do. You are required to declare ALL assets.
Hpw many people do you know, Gus, who are daft enough to leave 50k euro equivalent in a non-productive account. And no-one has yet given another example of a non-productive asset.
You know, this really is a case of mega self-aggrandisement...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

extranjero said:


> mrypg9-just a bunch of pensioners? There are some very rich pensioners about, two or more homes, latest cars and no doubt lots of overseas assets etc!


Then, if they are productive assets, they will have declared them, won't they?
As I said, if they hsve 50k euros plus in a non-productive account...they are rather silly, aren't they...Do you know anyone who keeps that amount - or even ;ess - in a non-productive account?
I've already dealt with the issue of a home in Spain and one in the UK from which no rent is accrued. 
But you started your posts by complaining about Modelo 720 which you seem to regard as at the very least preparation for a tax grab at some future point. You have no evidence for this and I think you should really stop scaring people who may not have the access tocorrect information and might be deterred from coming to Spain because of misconceptions.
I have to say again that I don't understand what you mean by 'rich'. Would you consider a couple with a joint net income of, say, 30k euros per annum 'rich'?
I certainly wouldn't . The fact a couple may own two cars doesn't mean they are 'rich'. I know many couples with two cars and a UK property yielding rental income as well as a house in Spain and no way are they 'rich'.
There is a huge difference between being 'comfortable', being 'poo'r and being 'rich'.
As I see it, a lot of people came to Spain on a wing and a prayer. Some didn't think long-term. Some seemed to think waving a British passport would give them some special esteem.
There are almost one million immigrants from the UK in Spain. I'd reckon the vast majority are happily settled, temporarily or like us for good. The door is open for those who are unhappy here for whatever reason. Those who are unhappy shouldn't pass this on to others or deter others from coming, if they can afford to.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Alcalaina said:


> Are you certain of that Gus? We had to move our savings to a different bank after the demise of the Co-op, but the value has gone down because we transferred some over here. If that's true you've saved me a trip to the gestor.


I was informed (and also thought I read it although I may have translated wrongly) that any *change *of 20k or more needed to be notified. By change, I assume they mean up or down.

When accounts change (numbers, banks etc.) then obviously they will need to be notified.


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

gus-lopez said:


> I must admit that I do agree with both Turtles & Extranjero. It is 'pokenosing' nothing else. If I have an account in the UK ,or anywhere else that contains a large sum of money that does not earn interest , what is it to do with HMRC ? Nothing. They don't ask for it to be declared. So why should the Spanish. & why all the detail ?
> It is quite simple . Fall foul of them & they can embargo the account using all the details that you have supplied, applying to a Spanish court & then using a European court order to enforce it in the UK or other EU country.
> This is why you should declare it as asked , complete with all details required, submit it , then change all the accounts. There is no requirement to advise them of changes of account details only on increases in value. If by chance you have to make another declaration due to 20k+ increase then submit the new details then change again.
> I have all my life ensured that anything I do is my business & mine only whilst legally using any means to ensure that know one knows what is going on. Only me.
> ...


Gus-surely you cannot open new accounts in UK ; if you could would you not be obliged to submit the 720 again because you had closed accounts and moved the money?
mrypg I would like to move back to the UK, not because of the 720, and I love Spain itself but the IHT is the main factor, and there is no solution to it. I am not prepared to give the Tax man a huge chunk. Abolishing the regional allowance has done it for me! There is the small matter of selling my house......


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> Are you certain of that Gus? We had to move our savings to a different bank after the demise of the Co-op, but the value has gone down because we transferred some over here. If that's true you've saved me a trip to the gestor.


Here is the faq's.
http://www.agenciatributaria.es/sta...los/720/Recopilacion_preguntas_frecuentes.pdf
There is nothing in there about notifying a change of account after the declaration.



Quote:Snikpoh

When accounts change (numbers, banks etc.) then obviously they will need to be notified.

Why ? They never asked you too ? 
I only answer the questions that they ask.
they also only state 20k UP.

Quote; Extranjero
Gus-surely you cannot open new accounts in UK ; if you could would you not be obliged to submit the 720 again because you had closed accounts and moved the money?


I can & have opened new accounts since living here, albeit with the same bank.
You can also just ask for exactly the same account just change the account number please.
They will also open you an 'offshore account. See reply above . It asks what account is the money in with full details. WHEN you declare. 
Additionally my wife had an account opened for her, with a bank she had never used before, in her name , whilst never having left Spain by a company she was proposing to sub-contract work from. She uses it all the time now.

Mrypg9;

" Err...yes, they do. You are required to declare ALL assets.
Hpw many people do you know, Gus, who are daft enough to leave 50k euro equivalent in a non-productive account. And no-one has yet given another example of a non-productive asset."

Only if you are required to declare /pay tax . If you have no income there is no requirement to submit/deal with the HMRC. 
To the second part, Yes, me. 
As I have stated before I do not agree with "unearned income" of any description, be it interest, renting properties, etc;etc. You need money , go to work: You need more , work longer hours.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

As we are not there yet, and I am not even going to get worked up by this. BUT

Is the declaration of over £50K a joint declaration 

In my very roundabout way, what I am saying , should the dosh, (and there is not going to be much) be split into accounts between the 2 of us?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

cambio said:


> As we are not there yet, and I am not even going to get worked up by this. BUT
> 
> Is the declaration of over £50K a joint declaration
> 
> In my very roundabout way, what I am saying , should the dosh, (and there is not going to be much) be split into accounts between the 2 of us?


Sorry, can't help..only OH has assets, shrewd Glaswegian!!

But someone will come along to tell you all you need to know!

You have a very sensible attitude. Spain really is for laid-back people!!


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

cambio said:


> As we are not there yet, and I am not even going to get worked up by this. BUT
> 
> Is the declaration of over £50K a joint declaration
> 
> In my very roundabout way, what I am saying , should the dosh, (and there is not going to be much) be split into accounts between the 2 of us?


If you have 50k+ in one joint account you will both have to declare for the 720 showing what % is attributable to each of you.
If you have 2 separate accounts with under 50k in each then neither of you will have to declare.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

gus-lopez said:


> If you have 50k+ in one joint account you will both have to declare for the 720 showing what % is attributable to each of you.
> If you have 2 separate accounts with under 50k in each then neither of you will have to declare.


You little star thanks xx

ps

so if we do not have the said assets we just fill in a blank form saying we do not have these

xx:kiss:


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Another thing about the 720 is that assuming you have done it all legally & then you decide to give away some money/help the kids with a house deposit etc; if they find out ,35% 'Gift tax' is payable by you . The law is the same for IhT & gifts. This is another reason Brits don't like the Spanish system.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

cambio said:


> You little star thanks xx
> 
> ps
> 
> ...


No ,you don't have to declare, fill a form in ,or anything unless you have assets that are over the 50k limit for any category.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

gus-lopez said:


> Another thing about the 720 is that assuming you have done it all legally & then you decide to give away some money/help the kids with a house deposit etc; if they find out ,35% 'Gift tax' is payable by you . The law is the same for IhT & gifts. This is another reason Brits don't like the Spanish system.


LOL My kids I am afraid will be making there own way, they will not have to worry too much about IHT because there will not be a great deal to inherit:amen:


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

cambio said:


> LOL My kids I am afraid will be making there own way, they will not have to worry too much about IHT because there will not be a great deal to inherit:amen:


Precisely what we are doing. We are unrepentant SKINs.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> Precisely what we are doing. We are unrepentant SKINs.


We did think about this BUT we have supported our children for as long as we can and they know. They have been dragged up well enough to be mortified at the thought if us living life begrudgingly just so they can get some dosh when we go


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> Precisely what we are doing. We are unrepentant SKINs.


Ok cannot find what's a Skin.?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

cambio said:


> Ok cannot find what's a Skin.?


Spending Kids Inheritance Now..

Both son and dil are very high earners. They can look after us if needs must, we looked after him!!


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## ivorra (Sep 24, 2008)

Returning to the detail of Modelo 720... can anyone suggest what should be entered for the 'NIF' when declaring a Premium Bond account (I think it is clear that Premium Bonds come in the 'C', bank account, category although they are misleadingly termed 'Bonds'). For ordinary UK based bank accounts we have a licence number or company registration but Premium Bonds are operated by NS & I, a branch of the Treasury who presumably don't need a licence!


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## Turtles (Jan 9, 2011)

We've been told that we mustn't worry about little details like that! Anyway, I put my holder's number there. I think we have to assume that it boils down to "put anything you like, but keep notes so that you can justify it if challenged."
- and they very definitely are bonds.


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## ivorra (Sep 24, 2008)

Thank you Turtles for those reassuring words - this would all be an interesting challenge (for the bureaucratically minded!) if the penalties for failing were not so terrifying. I had thought of putting the holder's number for the 'NIF' but that would also logically go in the account number field...


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## xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxenjoylife (Jul 26, 2011)

i read in an english local newspaper in Marbella
only 5 percent of resident foreigners 
declared oversea assets in 2013....


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

enjoylife said:


> i read in an english local newspaper in Marbella
> only 5 percent of resident foreigners
> declared oversea assets in 2013....


Which means, presumably, these are productive assets on which no tax is being paid.


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## xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxenjoylife (Jul 26, 2011)

i have my doubts about this ...


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

gus-lopez said:


> To my knowledge none of them have ever asked for advice or attempted to even enquire whether they need to be in the system. They just moved here as though it was an extension of the UK.


Tell me - did they miss the big sign in Southern Spain, saying Gibraltar this way ??


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## Madliz (Feb 4, 2011)

enjoylife said:


> i read in an english local newspaper in Marbella
> only 5 percent of resident foreigners
> declared oversea assets in 2013....


Could it be that only 5% of foreign residents have assets worth more than €50k abroad?


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