# Pregnancy Advice



## sinclair28 (Apr 14, 2013)

I have been living in Egypt with my partner for 9 months, we have talked of marriage at the embassy in Cairo but it's not something I planned to do at the moment, I am still learning to live in Egypt and learning about a new religion and what it means to marry into this religion. I have found out I am pregnant which is a shock, completely unplanned and would like advice from other expats, I have been told to keep as much rights to my child as possible I shouldn't marry at the embassy, I should remain 'married' under orfi contract - when I mention this to my partner he is horrified. I plan to go home for the birth of my child so that he/she has a british passport. I'm trying to research on the internet but so many horror stories and inaccurate information, if people here could help I would be grateful. I know my partner is a good man, I know he would do right by me and my child but what I do worry about is that in 10 years time if I am legally married and I wanted to leave Egypt then my husband could keep my child here against my wishes. Help.

Thanks in advance.


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

congratulations on your pregnancy.

Your child would qualify for a British embassy if born here and you can register him/her however anyone who can travel elsewhere would not give birth here so you are doing the best thing by going home. 

Only a man can register a child for a birth certificate in Egypt.

If legally married your husband can stop you and your child from leaving the country but I am not sure if he can stop you if you only hold a British passport.. ie you have never taken an Egyptian passport.


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## sinclair28 (Apr 14, 2013)

This is what I am worried about. I love my partner dearly and all going well in another 12 months I would have got married at the embassy after I was completely sure I could adapt to life in Egypt, I do find it a struggle sometimes. I am a realist and relationships break down and I just dont want to be in a situation where if needed I couldn't get my child out of the country, if that means remaining unmarried then I'm willing to stand my ground and tell him no but I just want all the facts. If I do get married at the embassy, am I giving up all my rights to my child? It doesn't matter how much he loves me, if I tried to take his child to another country I am sure he would do everything in his power to stop it happening as would anyone.


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## GM1 (Sep 30, 2008)

You can have these things written in your marriage contract.


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## sinclair28 (Apr 14, 2013)

I wondered about that but wasn't sure if it would actually stand up legally if it came to it....


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## hurghadapat (Mar 26, 2010)

sinclair28 said:


> This is what I am worried about. I love my partner dearly and all going well in another 12 months I would have got married at the embassy after I was completely sure I could adapt to life in Egypt, I do find it a struggle sometimes. I am a realist and relationships break down and I just dont want to be in a situation where if needed I couldn't get my child out of the country, if that means remaining unmarried then I'm willing to stand my ground and tell him no but I just want all the facts. If I do get married at the embassy, am I giving up all my rights to my child? It doesn't matter how much he loves me, if I tried to take his child to another country I am sure he would do everything in his power to stop it happening as would anyone.[/QUO
> 
> Whatever you do don't have your baby in Egypt as a child born out of an Orfi-marriage (born in Egypt) cannot get an Egyptian birth certificate. Without such a birth certificate the child cannot be vaccinated (!), and cannot get an Egyptian passport or identity card....meaning your child would have no legal status in Egypt.


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## sinclair28 (Apr 14, 2013)

I wont, I was told about that, I'll make sure I go home in plenty of time - I think that was the persons point for telling me to remain married by orfi and not embassy, means my child wouldn't be recognised here and if I ever did need to leave then no-one could stop me as all paperwork would be British? It's a horrible thing to do to my partner but maternal instinct already kicked in and I never want to be in the position where I couldn't get out if need be. If writing something in my embassy marriage contract was an option and I was sure it would actually be legally binding then I would certainly consider that option as I feel terrible researching this behind his back but I just want to make sure all bases are covered.


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## Biffy (May 22, 2012)

I am also a realist - to have a baby born out of wedlock in EGypt is a no no - especially these days.

As for your Husband taking your child from you if things were to hit the rocks.
Persoanlly I would 'go on holiday' long before it reached this point!!
If the family were totake your baby - how easy do you think it would be to get him/her back?
He would take him to where his family comes from and they would close ranks - if you managed at all to get any help from the authorities here - good luck.

It is a serious question - not just for you but also for him - if he has thought of it.
there have been many children also taken out of Egypt by one of the parents.
It is one thing that has worried my parents and my husbands parents - and even after over 10 years of marriage it crosses my mind occasionally - especially when you are going through a rough patch like all couples do.

There are no guarantees in this life - and I am not surprisaed he was horrified - to have a child out of marriage here is against the law basically - in fact he is committing enough of a sin having relations with you as it is - without a child coming into it. God knows what his parents will make of it!!


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## sinclair28 (Apr 14, 2013)

His parents are fine, they have welcomed me into the family but of course they don't know of the pregnancy and that's a different kettle of fish but I need to be sure of all my options before I make any decisions hence asking for help. Thanks everyone.


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

sinclair28 said:


> I wondered about that but wasn't sure if it would actually stand up legally if it came to it....




Believe me even if it is written into a contract making it stand will be very very difficult. I am not going into details here but a friend of mine had a clause written into a contract 3 times.. and still he did not keep his side of the bargain.. and no court is going to uphold the foreigners side against the Egyptian and more so when it is women v man.


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

One of our old posters married here then divorced , got back with him and had a child (never remarried) but she is now living back in the UK, would be great if she is reading the forum and jumps in with advice/answers.


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

Parental Child Abduction

There is a high incidence of parental child abduction cases from the UK to Egypt. There is no agreed international system in place to return children from Egypt to the UK.

Egypt has not signed the 1980 Hague Convention on the Civil Aspects of International Child Abduction. The Hague Convention seeks to return children abducted or retained overseas by a parent to their country of habitual residence, for the courts of that country to decide on matters of residence and contact.

The UK negotiated a bilateral judicial agreement with Egypt, the Cairo Declaration, which was signed in 2005 by leading Egyptian and UK judges to effect judicial cooperation on international child abduction matters. The principles of the agreement include upholding the principles of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child (i.e. to ensure that the child’s best interests are the primary consideration and that contact with both parents be maintained). It also states that the courts of the state where the child has their home should be the ones to make decisions about the welfare of the child, and the courts of the other state should respect these decisions. We are currently working to improve the effectiveness of the Cairo Declaration: to date no returns have been achieved using this method.

The abduction of a child from the UK or another country to Egypt is not a crime in Egypt unless there is an Egyptian court order regarding custody of the child or travel restrictions. Parental child abduction is, however, a criminal offence in Egypt if a parent or grandparent who removes a child from the person who is entitled to custody according to an Egyptian judicial decision. Neither the British government nor the British Embassy can force the abducting parent or the Egyptian government to return a child to the UK.

There is no extradition treaty in force between the UK and Egypt.

Custody Issues

Egyptian Personal Status laws will apply if one or both spouses are Muslim, and custody issues will be decided in the Family Court. Under Egyptian Personal Status law, although the father is considered to be the guardian of his children, the mother has the right to custody of both male and female children until the age of fifteen. After this age, a judge will give them the choice of who they want to live with. If a mother is proven untrustworthy or unfit to look after her children, she will lose custody through the Egyptian courts. If a woman remarries she is likely to lose custody of the children under Egyptian law if the father proves in a court case that she has become unable to take care of them because of her new marriage. 

If the mother loses custody, the order of preference of alternative custodians passes first down the line of closest female relatives rather than directly to the father. It typically takes from one year to eighteen months for custody to be decided through the Egyptian courts. Appeals are possible and usually take approximately six to nine months. 

If the father is Muslim, the children will be considered as Muslims even if the mother is of a different religion. This will not preclude the mother from having custody, providing she is a “person of the book” (i.e. Jewish, Christian or Muslim). If neither parent is Muslim, non-Muslim Personal Status Rules apply and the General Denomination Council decides on issues of custody. 

The parent who does not have custody is entitled to contact with the child if they have a court order.

UK or other foreign custody orders can only be executed in Egypt if they do not contravene domestic Egyptian law. A court order ruling the return of a child to the UK when the father resides in Egypt would be contrary to Egyptian laws governing paternal rights of contact so could be unlikely to be recognised.

N.B. This section constitutes general information on the Egyptian system. For detailed information and advice on how the law may apply to the circumstances of individual cases, independent legal advice should be sought in Egypt.
Travel

Although not part of Egyptian law, it is normal practice that the father’s approval is required for a child to be able to apply for an Egyptian passport or residency status. It is possible for either parent to apply to the Egyptian courts to have a travel ban put on the child leaving the country i.e. if there is an ongoing custody dispute or if they fear that the other parent intends to abduct the child overseas. If there is a travel ban in place, a parent will be stopped at the airport and prevented from leaving the country with the child.

Egypt recognises dual nationality, and a child of an Egyptian father will automatically be an Egyptian national from birth. A dual national child entering Egypt on a foreign passport is able to leave the country on their Egyptian passport. No exit visa is required. A UK Emergency Travel Document (ETD) may be used for travel in cases of emergency if the British passport has been lost or stolen, subject to the applicant meeting the rules and conditions applicable for an ETD. To exit Egypt on an ETD approval will be needed from the Egyptian Immigration authorities.


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## Biffy (May 22, 2012)

Oh if it were all that simple and cast in stone!!

This is EGypt - alor depends on who / what you know.
The Father by far has more rights than the mother.
Also it depends on the personal bias of the judge.

I knwo of families where even though a ruling has been made mothers are kept from thair children - and they are much younger than 15.

And if you were to keep your childen - but stay in EGypt.
If you were to get married again then all this changes.
As a man wouldn't put up with another man raising his children - this is why divorcees here in Egypt find it so difficult to remarry if they already have children. Becuase they fear to lose their children.


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## sarahrqe (Jul 1, 2009)

Okay, first, send me a PM.

I am an unmarried expat woman who had a baby in Cairo. It isn't that big of a deal, but you are right to be concerned about the legal issues.

I run a baby group in Zamalek (it is free, just a community group) with expats and Egyptians. Perhaps we can help?

Cheers,

Sarah


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