# Three Film Students dissolved in acid



## Meritorious-MasoMenos (Apr 17, 2014)

I still hope to return to Mexico, where I've always felt safe, knowing which regions to avoid.

I spent 2015 in DF on a writing project. A journalist in Mexico for many years, I knew I could get freelance assignments if I went to certain states to cover the drug wars, but no way was I brave enough. 

Apparently much of Mexico sickened by latest outrage. WashPost:

"For more than a month, the case of the missing students remained a mystery. But on Monday, Mexican authorities revealed gruesome details from their investigation.

After they were abducted, the film students were beaten and killed, and their bodies dissolved in acid, the attorney general’s office in Jalisco said in a televised news conference Monday.

The students, who authorities say had no connection to any criminal gangs, found themselves inadvertently enmeshed in an ongoing conflict between two drug cartels ...

... prompted protests across Mexico and drew outrage from the international filmmaking industry, including Oscar-winning director Guillermo del Toro ...

"There are no words to comprehend the magnitude of this madness,” del Toro, a Guadalajara native, tweeted early Tuesday. “3 students are killed and dissolved in acid. The ‘why’ is unthinkable, the ‘how is terrifying.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ies-say/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.268aa24ee6c2


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Meritorious-MasoMenos said:


> The students, who authorities say had no connection to any criminal gangs, found themselves inadvertently enmeshed in an ongoing conflict between two drug cartels.


The Mexican press reported that one of the students has an aunt who is involved with a drug cartel that is feuding with another one. Supposedly members of the second cartel kidnapped the three students hoping to get information from the nephew through verbal and physical abuse. When he died as a result of the beating, they killed his friends, so there would be no witnesses and then disposed of the bodies. Horrible, horrible! And none of the participants in Sunday's presidential debate have a clue about how to deal with the violence threatening so many parts of this country.


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## elsonador (Feb 16, 2011)

Lets not be naive here. Since Ole Felipe started the "war" on the cartels in 2006 there has been 200,000 disappeared or murdered in Mexico. Did they all have relatives or nexos to cartels, drugs? Maybe if the Mexican press (who may be influenced by the oh so honest government) says so.


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## lagoloo (Apr 12, 2011)

I lived in Los Angeles during the Rodney King riots and could see the action and the fires from my window up on the hill. The powers that be called in the National Guard, declared a curfew and things finally settled down. The markets had armed guards out front. It was a scary time. I don't know how that approach would work here.


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## KingM (Apr 2, 2018)

lagoloo said:


> I lived in Los Angeles during the Rodney King riots and could see the action and the fires from my window up on the hill. The powers that be called in the National Guard, declared a curfew and things finally settled down. The markets had armed guards out front. It was a scary time. I don't know how that approach would work here.


But you can already see military-type personnel in the streets in some areas. And the violence is not caused by a single, inciting incident, nor is it limited to a single community or even a cluster of community.

Short of brutal, military-regime type tactics with all the corruption and collateral damage that implies (i.e., a return to the older version of Mexico), I'm not sure what could be done.


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## lagoloo (Apr 12, 2011)

Good point. My fear is that if the violence escalates at its current rate, we may see the kind of Mexico we dread.


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## elsonador (Feb 16, 2011)

The current Mexico isn't dreadful? So many expats live in a vacuum. Most don't have jobs in Mexico, most don't run businesses in Mexico. They get a monthly deposit, keep a low profile, stick to a simple routine and are indoors by 8pm.

The average Mexicans I know already dread the reality they live in day to day. You want to make it and be successful? Maybe you open a small business but now you make more money than someone working at IMSS and now your a target. Do you make enough to buy Un carro del año? Better hope they don't pull you out at a red light. México is lawless in many ways, that is pretty dreadful.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

elsonador said:


> The current Mexico isn't dreadful? So many expats live in a vacuum. Most don't have jobs in Mexico, most don't run businesses in Mexico. They get a monthly deposit, keep a low profile, stick to a simple routine and are indoors by 8pm.
> 
> The average Mexicans I know already dread the reality they live in day to day. You want to make it and be successful? Maybe you open a small business but now you make more money than someone working at IMSS and now your a target. Do you make enough to buy Un carro del año? Better hope they don't pull you out at a red light. México is lawless in many ways, that is pretty dreadful.


I don't know where you live (Chihuahua State or Chihuahua City), but your description does not describe any Mexican I have met. I don't question that your description is accurate for some; but it is certainly not true for all. I live in Guadalajara and most of my friends are working class or middle class Mexicans, a hair cutter, a plumber, a couple of employees of big companies, a university professor. I have spent a lot of time in the Barrancas del Cobre, Creel and the surrounding countryside. I met and worked with lots of people there including a small businessman, a preacher, a hotel clerk, numerous subsistence farmers, a social worker, a hotel manager. 

They and I know the violence exists, but they live in the same vacuum you describe for ex-pats. It doesn't touch them directly. And incidentally, I often come home late alone. I usually try to make it by midnight because the shared bicycle system I use shuts off at midnight, but occasionally I miss and just walk home. "indoors by 8 pm", is not a requirement in my life.


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## lagoloo (Apr 12, 2011)

elsonador said:


> The current Mexico isn't dreadful? So many expats live in a vacuum. Most don't have jobs in Mexico, most don't run businesses in Mexico. They get a monthly deposit, keep a low profile, stick to a simple routine and are indoors by 8pm.
> 
> The average Mexicans I know already dread the reality they live in day to day. You want to make it and be successful? Maybe you open a small business but now you make more money than someone working at IMSS and now your a target. Do you make enough to buy Un carro del año? Better hope they don't pull you out at a red light. México is lawless in many ways, that is pretty dreadful.


I particularly dread a *military dictatorship*. Is that specific enough?

The expats I know are very much aware of the violence that exists now. It doesn't have to affect a person directly in order to for him/her to know about it. Even English language news sources tell us about it on a daily basis. Your assumptions are way off the mark.


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## elsonador (Feb 16, 2011)

Tundra I don't doubt your response or your experiences. My point is there is a lot of people who consider it safer to stay poor, that's my first hand experience everyone's is different.

We own a second home in Chihuahua City. My wife has family in Chihuahua and Cd Juarez.

As far as dreadful goes...3 film students being dissolved in barrels of acid seems pretty dreadful to me.

Military dictatorships? Not far from it. The military can force people out of their legally titled homes, control elections, and disappear people.

The indoors by 8pm remark comes from multiple occasions on this very board were expats try to claim people who go out at night and go to bars or hang out late at night are "looking for trouble anywhere" but we're not all over 65.

Additionally I'm not trying to attack anyone's opinions or experiences, but to me the current Mexico offers plenty of dreadful experiences for people I know personally.


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## KingM (Apr 2, 2018)

The Mexicans I know are writers, journalists, and business people. They are certainly aware of and alarmed by the situation, but Mexico as a whole is not in total chaos, and people in the U.S. news who claim that Mexico is a failed state or in a condition of near civil war are clearly exaggerating.

That is not to say that the situation isn't serious. It clearly is. But one could quite clearly cause more harm with the overreaction to the problem than currently exists.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Where are the military types of the streets_ I sure do not live in a Mexico where people are afraid to go out at night or people are afraid of a military take over..
I live in an area full of conflicts but the conflicts are out in the country between indigenous fighting it out for land and there are paramilitary groups in those areas but where the general populatin live there isn t such a thing...By the way the paramilitary groups are PRI guys not AMLO so if AMLO takes over I doubt it can get worst..


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

elsonador said:


> Tundra I don't doubt your response or your experiences. My point is there is a lot of people who consider it safer to stay poor, that's my first hand experience everyone's is different.
> 
> We own a second home in Chihuahua City. My wife has family in Chihuahua and Cd Juarez.
> 
> ...


Obviously, everyone has different experiences, depending on where they live and the kind of people they hang out with. Do you actually live in Chihuahua City or just own a home there? From your comments, it seems as though life is rather different in that part of Mexico from the way I have experienced it in Mexico City, where I live all year round. I don't recall anyone posting here that they like to be home by 8:00!

It's one thing to spend a lot of your time in bars till the wee hours, which may not always be a good idea. It's quite another to feel it's a good idea to be home by 10:00 or 11:00 pm, especially for those of us "old folks" (I'm 72, by the way) who get around on public transportation.


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## lagoloo (Apr 12, 2011)

Some folks love their stereotypes so much they can't bear to part with them.


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## KingM (Apr 2, 2018)

lagoloo said:


> Some folks love their stereotypes so much they can't bear to part with them.


And it's always surprising when the people holding the stereotypes are those with enough experience to have seen that the complexity of the situation defies generalization.


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## elsonador (Feb 16, 2011)

....glad I read and respected everyone's personal experiences. I was raised to at least listen to people you disagree with...

Everything I have stated is from actual convos on this board and actual life experience in country. I have lived in both Chihuahua City and Puebla and driven through half of the country in my personal vehicle. 

My experiences don't represent many of yours but I posted my experiences to add input. I'll be sure next time not to respond on this subject because the forces are quick to come out and start talking about stereotyping and listening to crazy US media reports. Guess only certain posters or their opinions are to be respected.


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## lagoloo (Apr 12, 2011)

What you wrote in one of your posts was somewhat demeaning to expats in general. Perhaps you didn't realize it,.
"So many expats live in a vacuum. Most don't have jobs in Mexico, most don't run businesses in Mexico. *They get a monthly deposit, keep a low profile, stick to a simple routine and are indoors by 8pm."*

Then, you referred to "listening to crazy US media reports." I said "English language newspapers", meaning Mexican generated newspapers such as "Mexico News Daily" which pulls no punches in reporting specific incidents of violence. Few expats believe the exaggerated reporting about Mexico in U.S. newspapers.

In other words it shouldn't be surprising that assumptions and stereotyping tend to bring forth negative feedback.


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## elsonador (Feb 16, 2011)

If describing a majority of expats in Mexico as retired older folks living in highly expat populated regions and living on pensions is demeaning than you can paint my hands red I must be a total jerk.

This thread is no longer healthy for anyone involved. It started because 3 college students were dissolved in acid, someone commented they don't want Mexico to become a dreadful place, I figured I'd add my personal experiences, which may not be those of others, but as always any bit of negative light shined on Mexico and a nerve is struck with some here. 

I didn't come here for a battle just added my two cents to a forum discussion, I remember why I haven't posted on here in some time, once the convo goes beyond visas and highway directions or regional climate it tends to be one sided.


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## elsonador (Feb 16, 2011)

Additionally I'm not sure where the Mexico News Daily assumption comes from. At any red light in Chihuahua you can see people hawking Spanish language amarillistas with front page photos much worse than anything on Mexico News Daily. Even local respected diarios write up on negative stuff...you don't have to go to English language sites to find what others are talking about....


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## Meritorious-MasoMenos (Apr 17, 2014)

KingM said:


> The Mexicans I know are writers, journalists, and business people. They are certainly aware of and alarmed by the situation, but Mexico as a whole is not in total chaos, and people in the U.S. news who claim that Mexico is a failed state or in a condition of near civil war are clearly exaggerating.
> 
> That is not to say that the situation isn't serious. It clearly is. But one could quite clearly cause more harm with the overreaction to the problem than currently exists.


Re: "The Mexicans I know are writers, journalists, and business people."

Totally opposite my interactions with Mexicans I knew for 30 years. In the year I spent in Mexico, (2015, going into 2016), I was so impressed at progress Mexico has made economically and socially. The presidential elections I think are free. Yet I couldn't find any Mexican of any class who had any faith in their system. They were all turned off to Peña Nieto, but I thought they would be excited about the then upcoming presidential campaign with wide array of candidates. Nope, universally, again writers, journalists, businessmen as well as IT workers and working class back in 15 that this year's election could change anything.

I tried to argue that there has to be an outsider candidate who could effect change. They all had deadened, existential cynical replies, that no candidate would change anything, that Mexico was like an oil tanker with no one at the controls, drifting towards the reefs.

I sure hope they're wrong. I was so depressed by the hopelessness that EVERYONE felt.

And nearly all of these people were economically very well off who travel often to Europe and U.S.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

The French feels the same way, they have a saying that says , the more it changes and the more it remains the same..


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## ojosazules11 (Nov 3, 2013)

It has been said previously on the forum that there is not one monolithic homogeneous Mexico, but many Mexicos, depending on where you are and who you primarily associate with. There are differences between regions, states, city vs rural, and different barrios within a town or city. There are differences based on socioeconomic strata. So I think el soñador’s experience in Chihuahua represents the reality of his context, as does TG’s in Guadalajara and Citlali’s in San Cristobal or Ajijic. Let’s just hope that Chihuahua becomes more like Guadalajara with time, and not vice versa. 

A few years back we had an acquaintance from Chihuahua (Mexican). His description pretty well matched el soñador’s. It sounds pretty tense. But in our town in Tepoztlán, that level of fear and expectation of violence is non-existent. There has been an uptick in violence in nearby Cuernavaca and Yautepec, and sometimes bodies from that violence have been dumped in the rural environs around Tepoz. But people (Mexican, not expats) in Tepoz that I’ve directly asked if they feel Tepoz is becoming less safe all said no. We feel safe being out at 1 a.m. in our town. I wouldn’t drive to Puebla or Taxco at that time, though. 

Cartel violence, and sometimes just random violence or revenge violence, extortion etc. is definitely a real problem in Mexico. It’s obviously more of a daily lived reality in some parts of the country. In other regions it’s more an awareness of what’s happening elsewhere in the country, but without the same impact on people’s daily life or perception of their personal safety. 

I’m under no illusions. These aren’t the first nor the last people to be killed in this way. I have high admiration for journalists who continue to try to carry out their professional duties with honesty and integrity, as truthful reporting in Mexico on matters of substance can be fatal. 

Nevertheless I go about my daily activities when I’m in Mexico without feeling unsafe or afraid. I avoid taking stupid risks, but I also avoid being governed by fear or anxiety. That might be different if I were in Chihuahua, although I’ve spent extended periods of time in a lower-middle class/lower class neighbourhood in Guatemala City, where it was not uncommon to hear of yet another homicide in the neighbourhood nearly every week, but I chose not to be afraid. I tend to be a bit of a fatalist. As we say in Spanish, “Cuándo te toca, te toca.” You might simply be walking down a sidewalk in Toronto on a sunny spring day, and be killed by a young man deliberately running down pedestrians. Live life fully, try not to be stupid, choose to not be afraid.


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## ojosazules11 (Nov 3, 2013)

citlali said:


> The French feels the same way, they have a saying that says , the more it changes and the more it remains the same..


Or:
“El mismo circo, otro payaso.”
“The same circus, a different clown.”


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Thanks for another one of your thoughtful, well-written posts, ojos. I was thinking about you while reading about the recent act of terrorism in your fair city. I trust that all is well with you and yours!


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## ojosazules11 (Nov 3, 2013)

Isla Verde said:


> Thanks for another one of your thoughtful, well-written posts, ojos. I was thinking about you while reading about the recent act of terrorism in your fair city. I trust that all is well with you and yours!


Thank you, Isla. I and mine are well, although many are quite shaken by Monday’s events. I find some of the people I’ve spoken to who are really disturbed are immigrants from countries where violence was commonplace (e.g. Pakistan, Colombia) and they don’t want to see that happen here in Canada. (I don’t think it will).


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Those attacks take a toll, I know that the last time I was with my sister in Paris we sat in a tourist area at a cafe outside on a square where thre are no cars and for some reason a car entered the plaza probably by mistake or to deliver something, you could have flt the tension.. every local was watching the car...you learn how to live with it but it causes a lot of stress after a while..


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## Meritorious-MasoMenos (Apr 17, 2014)

Meritorious-MasoMenos;14353649]Re:


Originally Posted by KingM View Post[QUOTE said:


> "The Mexicans I know are writers, journalists, and business people. They are certainly aware of and alarmed by the situation, but Mexico as a whole is not in total chaos, and people in the U.S. news who claim that Mexico is a failed state or in a condition of near civil war are clearly exaggerating.
> 
> That is not to say that the situation isn't serious. It clearly is. But one could quite clearly cause more harm with the overreaction to the problem than currently exists."


Totally opposite my interactions with Mexicans I knew for 30 years. In the year I spent in Mexico, (2015, going into 2016), I was so impressed at progress Mexico has made economically and socially. The presidential elections I think are free. Yet I couldn't find any Mexican of any class who had any faith in their system. They were all turned off to Peña Nieto, but I thought they would be excited about the then upcoming presidential campaign with wide array of candidates. Nope, universally, again writers, journalists, businessmen as well as IT workers and working class back in 15 that this year's election could change anything.

I tried to argue that there has to be an outsider candidate who could effect change. They all had deadened, existential cynical replies, that no candidate would change anything, that Mexico was like an oil tanker with no one at the controls, drifting towards the reefs.

I sure hope they're wrong. I was so depressed by the hopelessness that EVERYONE felt.

And nearly all of these people were economically very well off who travel often to Europe and U.S.[/QUOTE]

NEW ENTRY:

Just to add what I depressingly saw in my few decades living and traveling in Mexico, married to a Mexican, living within a large clan that saw only hopelessness with the Mexican state, living as an insider interacting with other clans who saw it the same way, then as a journalist for a decade, filled in by businessmen, regular Mexicans, Mexican journalists, deep background from intelligence sources of "a nearby nation" that built up trust with me over many years, all feeling only hopelessness over the utter corruption that is the true Mexican system, from getting a driver's or business license to politics. There is the Mexico that expats wearing rose-colored glasses see, and there is the Mexico most Mexicans see and live in.

Mexicans won't tell the expat their true feelings, a well known Mexican trait. An American author discovered this reclusiveness, this utter cynicism towards gov't, but also the joy that Mexicans were able to wring out of life despite it all in the once famous :The Children of Sanchez: Autobiography of a Mexican Family," by Oscar Lewis.

I imagine the PC literary mafia would never let such a book be published today by an American. From its Amazon page: "A pioneering work from a visionary anthropologist, The Children of Sanchez is hailed around the world as a watershed achievement in the study of poverty—a uniquely intimate investigation, as poignant today as when it was first published.

It is the epic story of the Sánchez family, told entirely by its members—Jesus, the 50-year-old patriarch, and his four adult children—as their lives unfold in the Mexico City slum they call home. Weaving together their extraordinary personal narratives, Oscar Lewis creates a sympathetic but ultimately tragic portrait that is at once harrowing and humane, mystifying and moving.

An invaluable document, full of verve and pathos, The Children of Sanchez reads like the best of fiction, with the added impact that it is all, undeniably, true."

I also wrote how surprised and disheartened I was in my 2015 stay in Mexico when despite its tremendous economic advances, I found only despair and cynicism among not only Mexicans from all social classes I had known for 30 years, but also in educated and well off people in their 20s, AND the people who worked for them. Their views on the then-far off 2018 presidential election were chilling, like listening to prisoners on death row talking about their chances of a Texas or Florida governor extending them clemency.

This all leads up to a WashPost story on withdrawal of independent female candidate, and it cites a poll that supports what I found, not the rosy optimism that some expats think Mexicans view their country:

"That change seemed like it might provide an outlet for the enormous frustration Mexican voters felt toward the country’s traditional parties and politicians. Last year, a Pew study found that only 6 percent of Mexicans were satisfied with the way their democracy was working."

That despair towards 2018 I found in 2015 turned out to be all too true, alas. There'll be a lot in the foreign press of a "new beginning" if the leftist wins as expected, but Mexicans see no difference.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...make-it/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.bc287d571f5b

Again, I love Mexico and its people, but it seems 99% of expats have no knowledge of the real Mexico. (Many of my comments to posts over the years ran something like, "No, you may THINK that's how it works in Mexico, but the reality is ... ")

I also ran a successful small business in Mexico with my wife in the 1980s, and again, Mexico had all these pretty laws but they mean absolutely nothing. With inside knowledge and with some blunt political power on my side via family, we prospered. But the rule of law had nothing to do with it.

Millions of Americans enjoy Mexico's glorious beaches every year, but if you look, you'll see the few that get entangled with Mexican "justice" don't wind up well. I guess the case of those two naive Europeans who thought they could motorcycle through Chiapas is the latest example. Reminds me of that very smart New Yorker (I mean that, He made a fortune as a stock trader, I vaguely remember) who thought he could motorcycle through Mexico in 2013 on his way to World Cup in Brazil.

I don't know if Oscar Lewis's work but has been discredited (I'm sure today's PC hounds have done so) but I do remember from his work his stunning precision on how Mexicans were able to present one face to outsiders, retaining their true feelings only for family members and intimates.

Remember that 6 percent figure the next time you wax eloquent on how Mexicans are content with their system


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## costaricamex (Jul 7, 2017)

Make drugs legal and controlled and taxed and 90% of this violence and corruption goes away. Look at Uruguay, Portugal and Holland for examples. 

Sadly that won’t happen quickly. So we live with the blowback and try to stay under the radar as expats. 

It’s the same more or less here in Costa Rica but minor differences like since we have no military our Independence Day parades are all the schools parading around with colonial costumes and musical bands. 

It was sad for me to see in Cuernavaca last September that the parade there was mostly military units of different sorts. Lots more military history in Mexico I guess but it’s sad to see the emphasis. Sure they had some kids too but way more army guys. But I still love Mexico.

Luckily for me I was able to meet and live with a Mexican family for a couple of years in the 90s in Cuernavaca. I left to go to Costa Rica and had little contact.

But Now being able to visit and stay there 3-4 months a year with them it has become clear to me that one very big reason that Mexico and other Latin countries are basically very strong socially deep down is because of family.

To see my adopted 86 year old Mexican mother surrounded by family and not just sisters and brothers and her 3 kids but all kinds of second and third nieces nephews and all kinds of relations I could not even begin to figure out. This is the most important thing in my opinion. 

Once the USA slowly had this strong family bond degraded (or at least most of the people I know) the degeneration to credit card, keep up with the Jones life took over.

Yes it’s happening in Mexico and Costa Rica also but meanwhile for the years I have left which may be few I get to enjoy the great feeling of being a minor part of a strong Mexican family that lives mainly for family and not for a new car. Here is an example of recent exchange when I was asking a niece about where my Mexican mom was since she did not answer the phone for a few days. 

Hola!

Mi tia,está bien. Ahora esta en la ciudad de México, fue a pasar el día de las Madres con Cristy.
Regresa hoy por la noche, tal vez muy tarde.
Últimamente ha estado acompañada. Joaquín estuvo en Cuernavaca y Lorena también.
El próximo es Rolis, d espues llegó yo, aunque sólo voy por el fín de semana (Y que vamos Rolis y yo, ella todavía no sabe) y despues,va mi hermana.
Oye, pues me daría mucho gusto tenerte por acá. 
Cuidate mucho y mantente en contacto por favor.

Now I better get ready to call me real mother as its her birthday Saturday. Have a great day all!


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Well the Europeans made it a long way until they got into an area that had problems and they either knew about it and went anyways thinking than being 2 would be ok or did not know about it.. When you travel this way you cannot be aware of all the problems..
Locals can be very close mouth , I know that in some villages where I know people but I am not close to them , people will not admit to troubles unless I ask them directly and they know I know the place is not safe..


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