# What's your take on the update to "Residency requirements"



## Muddy (Jan 14, 2010)

I would appreciate and very much like to know what the woman and man on the street thinks to the just updated residency requirements in relation to my situation if possible? (any comments welcome of course) 
I did plan on taking a year out you could call it! Study Spanish hard so I give it my almost full attention. Setup a business in a year or so part time!! Although part time self employed in Spain looks problematic to me I'll leave that aside for the minute.

So looking at these recent changes where do I stand if I go ahead and buy a property which was my intention before these changes were announced. 
I know the wise thing to do is rent and wait for property prices to drop, but I think I've found something I *really* like so if I can get a big-ish discount I might go for it and against what most would advise here on that perhaps!

Reading quickly through the changes this morning it seems a bit woolly IMO. That might not be a bad thing in some situations!

So I'll not be working for year 1 and possibly 18 months.
I'll either have my UK house sale cash in the bank and renting.
Or have assets in the form of a house in Spain and of course less cash in the bank!

Would I be welcomed with open arms by the rubber stamping brigade , or after going through all the hassle of selling up and moving to Spain only then to be told, sorry assets are not big enough or bank balance isn't fat enough?

A know this has been posted up already but links for convenience below;
Entry & residence requirements
Residency requirements - for information only

Thanx in advance for your thoughts...


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Muddy said:


> I would appreciate and very much like to know what the woman and man on the street thinks to the just updated residency requirements in relation to my situation if possible? (any comments welcome of course)
> I did plan on taking a year out you could call it! Study Spanish hard so I give it my almost full attention. Setup a business in a year or so part time!! Although part time self employed in Spain looks problematic to me I'll leave that aside for the minute.
> 
> So looking at these recent changes where do I stand if I go ahead and buy a property which was my intention before these changes were announced.
> ...


the way I understand it, ownership of property is certainly helpful, but it doesn't matter where it is - although it's having & being able to show, a regular income, that counts more, along with healthcare provision

the required level of income would seem to be that above which a spanish resident gets no govt. assistance - which atm is about 345€ per person per month..............


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

I just hope that Spains property agents are passing this info on. There are still people out there who are selling up "lock, stock and barrel" in the UK and buyin a property in Spain to live in full time, hoping/assuming they'll get work. What happens once the sale is completed and they all arrive with their kids, dogs, possessions and then find they're not allowed to become residents because they havent got proof of a regular income ????? Agents in Spain are having enough problems without feeling obliged to mention this???????

Jo xxx


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Remember that the political aim of the change is to control immigration from poorer parts of the EU. They are the ones who are likely to be a "drain on Spain's resources". It isn't intended to keep out people who will bring wealth into the country. It's not a case of trying to keep the numbers down, because Spain's population is falling (the birth rate is below the sustainability level).

I could be wrong but I can't see anyone with a healthy bank account intending to buy property being refused entry.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> Remember that the political aim of the change is to control immigration from poorer parts of the EU. They are the ones who are likely to be a "drain on Spain's resources". It isn't intended to keep out people who will bring wealth into the country. It's not a case of trying to keep the numbers down, because Spain's population is falling (the birth rate is below the sustainability level).
> 
> I could be wrong but I can't see anyone with a healthy bank account intending to buy property being refused entry.


neither do I - but let's face it, there are plenty who come/want to come from the UK with nothing more than a pocketful of 'I'll do anything for work' & 3 kids 

you know as well as I do that very often they _don't _ have more than a few 1000€ (if that ) - & that wouldn't last long


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> the way I understand it, ownership of property is certainly helpful, but it doesn't matter where it is -


I'd assume having a home in Spain would be a positive. It means you need less income to pay for shelter. The only way way I could see an out of country home helping is if it's rented.

I actually think the EU rules this is all based on allow the country to take into account having a place to stay. Don't the Spanish rules require having a place to stay?


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> Remember that the political aim of the change is to control immigration from poorer parts of the EU. They are the ones who are likely to be a "drain on Spain's resources". It isn't intended to keep out people who will bring wealth into the country. It's not a case of trying to keep the numbers down, because Spain's population is falling (the birth rate is below the sustainability level).
> 
> I could be wrong but I can't see anyone with a healthy bank account intending to buy property being refused entry.


From my understanding of the rules the EU set out it doesn't take a very healthy account. IIRC the rules don't allow the countries to require very much income/cash. The amount is just above the threshold for receiving local aid.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

NickZ said:


> From my understanding of the rules the EU set out it doesn't take a very healthy account. IIRC the rules don't allow the countries to require very much income/cash. The amount is just above the threshold for receiving local aid.


 But it IS above the threshold. Local aid isnt available anyway to foreigners until they've paid into the system for a significant amount of time

Jo xxx


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

NickZ said:


> I'd assume having a home in Spain would be a positive. It means you need less income to pay for shelter. The only way way I could see an out of country home helping is if it's rented.
> 
> I actually think the EU rules this is all based on allow the country to take into account having a place to stay. Don't the Spanish rules require having a place to stay?


it certainly wouldn't be a negative

the blurb does say property deeds are one way of proving assets - & of course you need an address - but it doesn't seem to matter if it's rented or owned

I would guess Spain would rather the (owned) property is in Spain - then they can easily embargo it (is that the right word :confused2 if you find yourself penniless & ask for help from the govt. (actually I'm not sure they wouldn't be able to do the same to a property elsewhere)

or am I being overly cynical...........


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

jojo said:


> But it IS above the threshold. Local aid isnt available anyway to foreigners until they've paid into the system for a significant amount of time
> 
> Jo xxx


EU – Residence rights when working in another EU country - Your Europe********

That's the EU general info



> National authorities cannot require your income to be above the level that would qualify you for basic income support.


So that limits how much they can ask for



> If you have to register, you may be fined for not doing so but may continue to live in the country and cannot be expelled just for this.


So if you don't register the worst thing they can do is fine you.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

NickZ said:


> EU – Residence rights when working in another EU country - Your Europe********
> 
> That's the EU general info
> 
> ...



which is all well & good if you're healthy, young free & single, don't give a hoot & are happy to work on the black & live under the radar

however - if you have kids who need to go to school you have to have that resident cert., if want to buy a car, in many areas now you need a resident cert -& I wouldn't be at all surprised if as time goes on it becomes impossible to do a whole slew of things without one


yes, the income has to be at least at 'subsitence' level - which is admittedly pretty low & I certainly wouldn't want to try to live on it - you certainly wouldn't be 'living the dream' on that sort of money 

we had a question here yesterday I think - could a family of 4 live on 25,000 gross a year - I don't know what that is after tax/NI but for argument sake take off 25% - so that comes down to around 1500 € a month net - that would be enough to get residency - but would you really _want _ to live on that?


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> we had a question here yesterday I think - could a family of 4 live on 25,000 gross a year - I don't know what that is after tax/NI but for argument sake take off 25% - so that comes down to around 1500 € a month net - that would be enough to get residency - but would you really _want _ to live on that?


What does the average Spanish family live on? I'm guessing far less. 

Obviously these sort of questions depend on what people consider an acceptable life style. We all have different ideas of luxury versus basics.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

NickZ said:


> What does the average Spanish family live on? I'm guessing far less.
> 
> Obviously these sort of questions depend on what people consider an acceptable life style. We all have different ideas of luxury versus basics.


if they are unemployed, then yes, I'm sure they do

but with the general habit of several generations living under one roof, I'd guess that if they are lucky enough to be working they are living on far more

I agree that it does depend what you want - but I'm sure that not many coming from the UK want to be living in worse conditions than they did in the UK - which is what _will _ happen if it all goes pear shaped - the chances of them getting any help from anywhere are slim to zero

sunshine counts for nowt when you have no money coming in


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## Muddy (Jan 14, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> the way I understand it, ownership of property is certainly helpful, but it doesn't matter where it is - although it's having & being able to show, a regular income, that counts more, along with healthcare provision
> 
> the required level of income would seem to be that above which a spanish resident gets no govt. assistance - which atm is about 345€ per person per month..............


Wow that kicked off quickly, lots of posts 
Does it actually state anywhere the regular income over property ownership counts more?
I still need to find a version of the _Royal Decree 240/2007 
_The 2 versions I found so far don't seem to have sections 5 and 6 under Article 7!
I feel a bit in limbo as with no job to start with means I will be relying on cash and property assets only for 12 to 18 months. If that isn't enough on its own for residency then I'm stuffed! (maybe)..
It goes without saying why the heck would anyone want to risk buying a property if they then end up being refused residency!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Muddy said:


> Wow that kicked off quickly, lots of posts
> Does it actually state anywhere the regular income over property ownership counts more?
> I still need to find a version of the _Royal Decree 240/2007
> _The 2 versions I found so far don't seem to have sections 5 and 6 under Article 7!
> ...


no it doesn't say that - it does actually say that property deeds will be accepted for proof, but I missed that on my first read 

I can't imagine that you'll have a problem tbh - with or without the property - the actual monthly income requirement is scarily low for a single person


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## Muddy (Jan 14, 2010)

jojo said:


> I just hope that Spains property agents are passing this info on. There are still people out there who are selling up "lock, stock and barrel" in the UK and buyin a property in Spain to live in full time, hoping/assuming they'll get work. What happens once the sale is completed and they all arrive with their kids, dogs, possessions and then find they're not allowed to become residents because they havent got proof of a regular income ????? Agents in Spain are having enough problems without feeling obliged to mention this???????
> 
> Jo xxx


The agent I'm in contact with didn't mention it! And when I brought it up he quoted something from his legal advisor which says the need to also include proof of property ownership! That doesn't seem correct, or is it?
But like you said, it's no good hoping or assuming.
Like I've already alluded to, this applies to my situation. No work lined up, so yes there is a risk down the road. But that's why I need to know 100% or as close as if cash in the bank for a few years makes this problem go away for me so I can then without worry purchase the nice little house on the prairie I've found 
For me at least it's a lot easier as no wife, kids, dog or goldfish to feed. Of course that scenario of owning a house and not able to get residency is something to be avoided! (understatement of the year lol)


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

Muddy said:


> The agent I'm in contact with didn't mention it! And when I brought it up he quoted something from his legal advisor which says the need to also include proof of property ownership! That doesn't seem correct, or is it?
> But like you said, it's no good hoping or assuming.
> Like I've already alluded to, this applies to my situation. No work lined up, so yes there is a risk down the road. But that's why I need to know 100% or as close as if cash in the bank for a few years makes this problem go away for me so I can then without worry purchase the nice little house on the prairie I've found
> For me at least it's a lot easier as no wife, kids, dog or goldfish to feed. Of course that scenario of owning a house and not able to get residency is something to be avoided! (understatement of the year lol)


If you have cash in the bank which will cover your monthly outgoings then you would be okay anyway... I think!
So it shouldn't matter in your case whether the ownership of property is taken into account or not.
And in any case, you wouldn't be moving here unless you could rely upon an income of some sort (in your case, monthly cash from savings) would you?

I would be more concerned about sorting out private health insurance, because you will not be able to get state health care as you will not be a worker or pensioner, or applying for an S1 if that will be available to you for a couple of years. Not only as proof for residencia, but also because, well, it's less risky than relying on fate


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## Muddy (Jan 14, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> Remember that the political aim of the change is to control immigration from poorer parts of the EU. They are the ones who are likely to be a "drain on Spain's resources". It isn't intended to keep out people who will bring wealth into the country. It's not a case of trying to keep the numbers down, because Spain's population is falling (the birth rate is below the sustainability level).
> 
> I could be wrong but I can't see anyone with a healthy bank account intending to buy property being refused entry.


I've seen a few articals stating Spanish emigration is up 44%. So that wont help if (the birth rate is below the sustainability level).
current estimates showed that 40,625 Spaniards emigrated from January through June, compared with 28,162 last year.
Spanish emigration up sharply in 2012 - Yahoo! News
Would be interesting also to know how many skilled workers are leaving and what will happen during a recovery when that eventually happens.

I hope you're right!
I'm not loaded, I wish I was  but have spent time looking and working out all my outgoings and building in a bit of spare. Plus I wont have a mortgage to pay which is a big help.
Still is a worry tho, if I turn up, buy the house and then I don't get the rubber stamp treatment! I guess I'm in that type of situation I'm not going to know until I try!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> I just hope that Spains property agents are passing this info on. There are still people out there who are selling up "lock, stock and barrel" in the UK and buyin a property in Spain to live in full time, hoping/assuming they'll get work. What happens once the sale is completed and they all arrive with their kids, dogs, possessions and then find they're not allowed to become residents because they havent got proof of a regular income ????? Agents in Spain are having enough problems without feeling obliged to mention this???????
> 
> Jo xxx


Would anyone be daft enough to come here with family and all their possessions without a fixed contracted job???

If anyone were so silly I'd have little sympathy.

But then, I'm brutal..


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## Jumar (Mar 14, 2012)

I am also confused as to how long-stay holiday/travellers are going to be able to stay for longer than 3 months, i.e. the winter motorhomers/caravanners. They won´t have an address if they are constantly moving on during their stay in Spain but after 3 months they are supposed to register. I would imagine very few (none?) will bother to register. Will they go to the trouble of trying to decipher the regulations for a few months extra in Spain, will they even know they should register?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Would anyone be daft enough to come here with family and all their possessions without a fixed contracted job???
> 
> If anyone were so silly I'd have little sympathy.
> 
> But then, I'm brutal..


you know they would....


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## Muddy (Jan 14, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> no it doesn't say that - it does actually say that property deeds will be accepted for proof, but I missed that on my first read
> 
> I can't imagine that you'll have a problem tbh - with or without the property - the actual monthly income requirement is scarily low for a single person


Well the deeds accepted is good to know  if that wording can be taken on face value!
I guess when I have to show proof of bank balance or assets and a smaller bank balance that will suffice!
I must admit, all this is worry me and does add to the stress levels :frusty:
But I'm feeling better that I was this morning and the last month or so.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

NickZ said:


> What does the average Spanish family live on? I'm guessing far less.


No way!
The *average* Spanish family. 
That would still be with both parents working, one child, maybe an older member of the family... I'd say 2000 - 2500 per month _*minimum*_, and that is of course a family that doesn't really exist, 'cos average is only smth that exists in the world of statistics.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> No way!
> The *average* Spanish family.
> That would still be with both parents working, one child, maybe an older member of the family... I'd say 2000 - 2500 per month _*minimum*_, and that is of course a family that doesn't really exist, 'cos average is only smth that exists in the world of statistics.


yes, that's what I was getting at when I said that several generations live toether - I meant more than one generation of working age would be contributing


you just said it more clearly.............


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jaws101 said:


> I am also confused as to how long-stay holiday/travellers are going to be able to stay for longer than 3 months, i.e. the winter motorhomers/caravanners. They won´t have an address if they are constantly moving on during their stay in Spain but after 3 months they are supposed to register. I would imagine very few (none?) will bother to register. Will they go to the trouble of trying to decipher the regulations for a few months extra in Spain, will they even know they should register?


exactly - they probably won't bother - just as they don't now


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

jaws101 said:


> I am also confused as to how long-stay holiday/travellers are going to be able to stay for longer than 3 months, i.e. the winter motorhomers/caravanners. They won´t have an address if they are constantly moving on during their stay in Spain but after 3 months they are supposed to register. I would imagine very few (none?) will bother to register. Will they go to the trouble of trying to decipher the regulations for a few months extra in Spain, will they even know they should register?


They cant register, as they have no fixed abode in Spain (unless, of course, they spend all their time on the same caravan site).

I would imagine they will go on the way they always have. Spend 6 months traveling around Spain (hopefully with travel insurance) and then go home (and hope that their doctor hasn't struck them off for being out of the UK longer than three months...).


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> yes, that's what I was getting at when I said that several generations live toether - I meant more than one generation of working age would be contributing
> 
> 
> you just said it more clearly.............


I understood you no problem, I was just adding a reply to Nick Z...
I remember a class of 7 people telling me about 3 years ago that their friends and families who lived abroad (Germany, Switzerland, the UK...) thought that the Spanish salaries were a joke. And it's true that Spanish salaries, if you're not director General of a bank, electric company or similar, are very low, but low is 900/ 1000€, and in one family *usually* there is still more than one person earning. I wouldn't say it was easy for a family to live off 2000€ and 1500 as an average seems way too low to me. Of course there are many families who are much worse off, but I wouldn't say it was the norm still.


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## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

Muddy said:


> Still is a worry tho, if I turn up, buy the house and then I don't get the rubber stamp treatment! I guess I'm in that type of situation I'm not going to know until I try!


What you have to understand is that the advice you are given on here (unlike other Expat places) though absolutely correct......is the theory or the principle.
However.....the actual reality is usually very different. Because quite simply, (and the Spaniards really laugh at Guiris because of this) the vast majority of Brit incomers are totally obsessed with searching out and complying with every bull****e law, byelaw, rule interpetation that turns up.

The Spaniards do the exact oppos¡te.....ignore it. The Franco era mentality has been passed down over the generations and they have a deep mistrust of authority....be it government or Guardia, or Hacienda....and of course banks etc.
They know that whatever piece of crap that's rolled out today is going to be changed tomorrow.....so why waste time with complying with something that's going to be ditched for something else very soon?

I've applied the same thing to my residency....it expired a year ago and I'm not going to renew it till they reinstate the card. Hell....my boy couldn't even get a mobile phone contract with that worthless bit of paper because Vodafone head office would only accept the card. Despite them knowing they'd been withdrawn.
Now how stupid is that.....everybody wails about the crisis, but it's bureaucratic crap of that nature, that has helped to fuel it. Along with not accepting ownership or responsibility for any problem of course.

Once they get their act together.....so will I. But I'm not wasting my time queueing for a bit of paper that carries no more weight than my old NIE from 2005.
So my point is.....don't sweat it. Take a local Spaniard with you along with a pile of Brit papers which relate to anything. He'll take one look.....not understand it, but realise it could mean WORK.....and he'll stamp any damn thing you want just to get rid of you. 
And go there 20 minutes before closing time.....also a good time for ITV's by the way.

Now that's the reality of Livin' La Vida Loca!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> no it doesn't say that - it does actually say that property deeds will be accepted for proof, but I missed that on my first read
> 
> I can't imagine that you'll have a problem tbh - with or without the property - the actual monthly income requirement is scarily low for a single person


I was going to say the same thing. When we first heard of this new requirement it seemed really scary, but inreality it's such a low amount that it really shouldn't be an obstacle for any one who really wants to come here.
That's not to say it won't go up though. This government is making changes faster than you can write a post on this forum!


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## Muddy (Jan 14, 2010)

Solwriter said:


> If you have cash in the bank which will cover your monthly outgoings then you would be okay anyway... I think!
> So it shouldn't matter in your case whether the ownership of property is taken into account or not.
> And in any case, you wouldn't be moving here unless you could rely upon an income of some sort (in your case, monthly cash from savings) would you?
> 
> I would be more concerned about sorting out private health insurance, because you will not be able to get state health care as you will not be a worker or pensioner, or applying for an S1 if that will be available to you for a couple of years. Not only as proof for residencia, but also because, well, it's less risky than relying on fate


Yeah I'll have more cash in the bank of course to start with and also for longer if I rent before I buy! But that will of course look much less after a purchase which is what I want sooner than later.
I wont really be relying on income from savings as the interest on savings is so low anyway, but also will be depleted somewhat once house is purchased. My aim is to setup a business in 12 to 18 months and hopefully grow it. That is a big-ish risk I guess but I don't have any dependent's or goldfish!
On the healthcare side, yes I've got that at the top of my expenditure list


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

XTreme said:


> What you have to understand is that the advice you are given on here (unlike other Expat places) though absolutely correct......is the theory or the principle.
> However.....the actual reality is usually very different. Because quite simply, (and the Spaniards really laugh at Guiris because of this) the vast majority of Brit incomers are totally obsessed with searching out and complying with every bull****e law, byelaw, rule interpetation that turns up.
> 
> The Spaniards do the exact oppos¡te.....ignore it. The Franco era mentality has been passed down over the generations and they have a deep mistrust of authority....be it government or Guardia, or Hacienda....and of course banks etc.
> ...


That's probably the best way of looking at things.
And certainly less stressful in the long run.

But having said that you wont bother to renew your residencia until you can get a card, I bet you still use that old card as ID.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

jaws101 said:


> I am also confused as to how long-stay holiday/travellers are going to be able to stay for longer than 3 months, i.e. the winter motorhomers/caravanners. They won´t have an address if they are constantly moving on during their stay in Spain but after 3 months they are supposed to register. I would imagine very few (none?) will bother to register. Will they go to the trouble of trying to decipher the regulations for a few months extra in Spain, will they even know they should register?


As I understand the regulations, application for residency after 90 days isn't compulsory. It's just that EU citizens have the_ right_ to apply if they intend to stay permanently, but t's not necessary if they just come and go with the seasons. 


Here's a quick machine translation of the Spanish government advice on residence. 



> EXCEEDING THREE MONTHS RESIDENCE
> 
> The citizens of a Member State of the European Union or of another State party to the agreement on the European economic area *have the right of residence* in Spanish territory for a period longer than three months if they are in any of the following cases:
> They are workers employed or self-employed in Spain, or
> ...


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Alcalaina said:


> As I understand the regulations, application for residency after 90 days isn't compulsory. It's just that EU citizens have the_ right_ to apply if they intend to stay permanently, but t's not necessary if they just come and go with the seasons.
> 
> I posted a link to the Spanish government website info about this somewhere, but I can't remember where.


 As long as they dont live in Spain permanently. Altho that said - if you dont have to worry about schools, employment, healthcare, buying anything big that needs a valid NIE, then I guess it doesnt matter???? I suppose the EHIC would cover basic emergency health issues???

Jo xxx


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

jojo said:


> As long as they dont live in Spain permanently. Altho that said - if you dont have to worry about schools, employment, healthcare, buying anything big that needs a valid NIE, then I guess it doesnt matter???? I suppose the EHIC would cover basic emergency health issues???
> 
> Jo xxx


Quite. As far as I can see there is no intention to restrict the length of your holiday!


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## Muddy (Jan 14, 2010)

XTreme said:


> What you have to understand is that the advice you are given on here (unlike other Expat places) though absolutely correct......is the theory or the principle.
> However.....the actual reality is usually very different. Because quite simply, (and the Spaniards really laugh at Guiris because of this) the vast majority of Brit incomers are totally obsessed with searching out and complying with every bull****e law, byelaw, rule interpetation that turns up.
> 
> The Spaniards do the exact oppos¡te.....ignore it. The Franco era mentality has been passed down over the generations and they have a deep mistrust of authority....be it government or Guardia, or Hacienda....and of course banks etc.
> ...


XTreme by name, and XTreme by nature lol 
Thanx for that, I feel a lot better after reading your post.
I guess being very green and being a newcomer to a country you just feel compelled to comply with all the BS and crap to make sure you don't trip up and risk getting into any trouble.
Thanx for the advice and tips, I'll endeavour to follow your ethos as soon as possible


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## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

Solwriter said:


> That's probably the best way of looking at things.
> And certainly less stressful in the long run.
> 
> But having said that you wont bother to renew your residencia until you can get a card, I bet you still use that old card as ID.


Of course......that photo was one of me with my hair coloured a nice shade of brown courtesy of Mr Clairol!

I'm not walking round with a new one veryifying my greyness....though the damn Spaniards keep saying "blanco". God that pisses me off!

Still....I'm better off than Stravinsky with his goddam ponytail though. After he came here in 2008 (and shunned my donkey BTW). I had people asking me for years where's my mate who had his head on back to front? Strange but true!


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## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

Muddy said:


> XTreme by name, and XTreme by nature lol
> Thanx for that, I feel a lot better after reading your post.


That's the reality Muddy!

I spent 51 years in Britain NOT bending over and taking it from the likes of Thatch, CSA, Blair etc etc.....and I'm too old to change.

I'll tell you a quick story.....absolutely true! It can sometimes be a bureaucratic nightmare to get a horse registered without proof of parentage, where it's come from etc.

In my case.....dead easy.....providing you know the right people. Went to see a mate who's a vet and told him the situation that I had no documentation.
He just pulled out his book.....asked me what info I wanted putting down, and job done. Little drink for him of course......that's the way things are done.

So now we have a horse called Bethan, whose papers show that her parents were Black Beauty and Champion the Wonder Horse! No I'm not joking.....those were the first names that came into my head when I was asked!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

NickZ said:


> EU – Residence rights when working in another EU country - Your Europe********


 People have the right to live and work in Spain and receive the same treatment as locals ???? is that the point of your link??

Jo xx


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

No the link is the EU law that sets out the requirements. Countries can't set higher standards then those in the EU law. 

But if you get residency you aren't supposed to be treated worse then a local.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

XTreme said:


> That's the reality Muddy!


Well, to a certain extent...
On the other hand there are several (hundred) immigrant families who have houses that are threatened with demolition 'cos they were built without the required permits. Sometimes that has nothing to do with the present owners, but sometimes they have gone ahead and built knowing of the illegalities, in the belief that the Spanish are either too stupid, too corrupt, or too lazy to do anything about it.

In my life in Spain I find they are sticklers for getting the paperwork done. Form TC81M, which has to be stamped, signed and photocopied (at _least_ 3 times!) and then taken to window 4 on the second floor - and don't forget, we close at 14:00!!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

NickZ said:


> No the link is the EU law that sets out the requirements. Countries can't set higher standards then those in the EU law.
> 
> But if you get residency you aren't supposed to be treated worse then a local.


Which isn't saying much these days ...


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

NickZ said:


> No the link is the EU law that sets out the requirements. Countries can't set higher standards then those in the EU law.
> 
> But if you get residency you aren't supposed to be treated worse then a local.



But you're not. If you get residency, you'll be treated the same as a local! 

Jo xxx


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## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well, to a certain extent...
> On the other hand there are several (hundred) immigrant families who have houses that are threatened with demolition 'cos they were built without the required permits. Sometimes that has nothing to do with the present owners, but sometimes they have gone ahead and built knowing of the illegalities, in the belief that the Spanish are either too stupid, too corrupt, or too lazy to do anything about it.
> 
> In my life in Spain I find they are sticklers for getting the paperwork done. Form TC81M, which has to be stamped, signed and photocopied (at _least_ 3 times!) and then taken to window 4 on the second floor - and don't forget, we close at 14:00!!


Yes....but you're comparing apples and oranges here pesky. A residencia certificate and an illegal build are polar opposites.
And when you're getting into that sort of territory you're playing Russian Roulette.....because despite thinking you've complied with everything you can still get screwed. I would never even get into that game because you just don't know who you can trust or believe.

For simple day to day things which are not exactly life changing, then just go with the flow. But bear in mind my environment is very different to yours......this is a very small, isolated town (sub 10K) people, everybody knows everybody, everybody is related to everybody, it's basically a closed shop. And if you get access to the shop then you're pretty well sorted. For whatever reason (probably because we're so different to other foreigners) the people took to us and we've never looked back. We're the only ones though.

Not just with the Spanish either.....we even get invited to Gitano weddings and christenings. That used to turn some heads!


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

People in motorhomes/caravans proposing to stay more than 90 days are required to stop at the border, if you can find it , & register that intention before entering the country. We had this all out recently in a thread complete with links.

Under EU law you have to apply for a certificate after 90 days if the country so requires you to do, Spain does. Failure to apply can result in a 300€ fine ( only 59 in Greece ! ) If you cannot meet the requirements you can still apply which covers being fined for failure to do so. AS an EU member state citizen you cannot be thrown out even if you have no certificate. You also cannot be asked to leave on economic grounds under any cicumstances.

The actual amount of yearly income I have read twice this week ( one , I believe was on Typically spanish ). The amount is some odd amount like, € 5007,81. Or it might be 5001,87 ??

The new rules & requirements for residency only apply to new applicants. They cannot apply to anyone with permanent residency already. You are to be treated as a Spanish national.

For new applicants , if you want the aggro, who are asked for social security info from the UK you should draw their attention to EU Regulation 883/04, which requires them to obtain the required info, directly using the Eu social security coordination system. ( Yes, I was informed this morning that each & every office in every EU country has the ability to contact whichever country they require info from, at the click of a mouse/by phone & speak , if required , in their own language.) 

Anyway ,off-topic but where is this 'multi-quote' button ? I can't find it.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

gus-lopez said:


> Anyway ,off-topic but where is this 'multi-quote' button ? I can't find it.


there isn't one


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

gus-lopez said:


> Anyway ,off-topic but where is this 'multi-quote' button ? I can't find it.


It's called cut and paste.


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## Muddy (Jan 14, 2010)

XTreme said:


> That's the reality Muddy!
> 
> I spent 51 years in Britain NOT bending over and taking it from the likes of Thatch, CSA, Blair etc etc.....and I'm too old to change.
> 
> ...


You made me laugh twice today XTreme
Well that story says a lot in the way things can work in Spain. I guess the important thing is to go with the flow and except it as part of the culture and when necessary take the odd short-cut when its available and necessary!

On the house purchase side of things we've all seen many times expats come unstuck due to not talking the same precautions as they would in the UK, different story of course but I'll keep yours in mind if I ever opt for getting a horse 

Hopefully getting residency will end up being straightforward for me and I'll be able to look back on some of these threads and think to myself what was all the worrying about 
PS. Love the horse names you chose  :deadhorse:


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Solwriter said:


> It's called cut and paste.


How do you do that when you have no posts to refer too ? When I click on reply , that's all I've got , a reply box, no posts below to refer to. If I click on reply in a thread then I get the one I'm replying to but nothing else.:confused2:


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

gus-lopez said:


> How do you do that when you have no posts to refer too ? When I click on reply , that's all I've got , a reply box, no posts below to refer to. If I click on reply in a thread then I get the one I'm replying to but nothing else.:confused2:


two tabs


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## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

Muddy said:


> I guess the important thing is to go with the flow and except it as part of the culture and when necessary take the odd short-cut when its available and necessary!


You got it in one Muddy!

I could tell you about somebody (who me and Strav know personally) who is obsessive-compulsive about doing everything by the book.
He came to Spain reciting that mantra which he'd always worn like a badge of honour......and got taken to the cleaners by lawyers, estate agents, house vendors, and even WOMEN!

Came here in 2005 with all good intentions and a nice wad......but was gone by 2010 having lost EVERYTHING! He was penniless!
How did that happen when he wanted everything done by the book? 
Basically he was going by the book, while everybody around him were not. And he never saw it coming! 

My advice is always DTA......Don't Trust Anybody. Especially failed Brit losers......you'll find plenty of them! So avoid at all costs!


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## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

gus-lopez said:


> How do you do that when you have no posts to refer too ? When I click on reply , that's all I've got , a reply box, no posts below to refer to. If I click on reply in a thread then I get the one I'm replying to but nothing else.:confused2:


Richard.....have you ever considered that you may be too stupid to own a computer?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

XTreme said:


> Yes....but you're comparing apples and oranges here pesky. A residencia certificate and an illegal build are polar opposites.
> And when you're getting into that sort of territory you're playing Russian Roulette.....because despite thinking you've complied with everything you can still get screwed. I would never even get into that game because you just don't know who you can trust or believe.
> 
> For simple day to day things which are not exactly life changing, then just go with the flow. But bear in mind my environment is very different to yours......this is a very small, isolated town (sub 10K) people, everybody knows everybody, everybody is related to everybody, it's basically a closed shop. And if you get access to the shop then you're pretty well sorted. For whatever reason (probably because we're so different to other foreigners) the people took to us and we've never looked back. We're the only ones though.
> ...


Similar thing here. So much depends on your own attitude. there are a number of foreigners here, Brits, Dutch, Germans, etc who isolate themselves from the local population except those they meet up with in the bars. 

On the odd occasion that they go to the medical centre (aka social meeting place) they are isolated and find it difficult to get help. We have a pop of less than 5k now that some immigrants have left because they just couldn't cope with decreasing income and rising mortgages on houses that needed loadsa work compounded by getting ripped off by Brit "builders".

If one tries to integrate, then, invariably the Spanish and the Gitanos and Moriscos will welcome immigrants.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> Similar thing here. So much depends on your own attitude. there are a number of foreigners here, Brits, Dutch, Germans, etc who isolate themselves from the local population except those they meet up with in the bars.
> 
> On the odd occasion that they go to the medical centre (aka social meeting place) they are isolated and find it difficult to get help. We have a pop of less than 5k now that some immigrants have left because they just couldn't cope with decreasing income and rising mortgages on houses that needed loadsa work compounded by getting ripped off by Brit "builders".
> 
> If one tries to integrate, then, invariably the Spanish and the Gitanos and Moriscos will welcome immigrants.


yes....... but if you want to buy a car & can't transfer the papers without a resident cert, it doesn't matter how 'integrated' you are................ it won't help


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## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

xabiachica said:


> yes....... but if you want to buy a car & can't transfer the papers without a resident cert, it doesn't matter how 'integrated' you are................ it won't help


Bought and sold a car last month.....no residencia needed. You only need residencia when buying new!

And anybody buying a new car here needs their head read.....cos within 6 months it won't be looking so clever after everybody uses it as a dodgem.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

XTreme said:


> Bought and sold a car last month.....no residencia needed. You only need residencia when buying new!
> 
> And anybody buying a new car here needs their head read.....cos within 6 months it won't be looking so clever after everybody uses it as a dodgem.



I needed an NIE/residencia to buy my car - in fact the garage held the car til I had got it...... and no it wasnt new. But they needed it for the transfer papers or something

Jo xxx


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

XTreme said:


> Bought and sold a car last month.....no residencia needed. You only need residencia when buying new!
> 
> And anybody buying a new car here needs their head read.....cos within 6 months it won't be looking so clever after everybody uses it as a dodgem.


I know - it's different everywhere & even in the same place on different days

but two people I know in my town both transferred cars within the past few weeks - one HAD TO get a resident cert - the other only needed a NIE..........................


I think the time will soon be upon us when we can't get anything other than a holiday let on a property without a resident cert - I genuinely do

not to mention that you can't (fully) get on the state health system without one


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

xabiachica said:


> I know - it's different everywhere & even in the same place on different days
> 
> but two people I know in my town both transferred cars within the past few weeks - one HAD TO get a resident cert - the other only needed a NIE..........................
> 
> ...


You definitely need an NIE number to get insurance for it!

jo xxx


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## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

xabiachica said:


> not to mention that you can't (fully) get on the state health system without one


Yes you can.....we've all got cards! Had them for years! And I did query it with my Gestor (I use a young career minded guy in Granada city not a doddering local bumpkin) and our residencia expiring has _no bearing whatsoever_ on our healthcare status.


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## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

jojo said:


> I needed an NIE/residencia to buy my car - in fact the garage held the car til I had got it...... and no it wasnt new. But they needed it for the transfer papers or something
> 
> Jo xxx


You provide NIE, Padron, Passport.....and occasionally in some dumbass gestors, a compulsado. But a residencia for a used vehicle is not a requirement.....so whoever you used was a clueless **** Jo.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

XTreme said:


> You provide NIE, Padron, Passport.....and occasionally in some dumbass gestors, a compulsado. But a residencia for a used vehicle is not a requirement.....so whoever you used was a clueless **** Jo.


 Dunno, it was the person in trafico!? But then my NIE and residencia were on the same form and that was what they asked for - which was lucky cos thats what I got!!

Jo xxx


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

We only needed NIE to buy s/h car and insure it. Tried to get my Tarjeta Sanitaria changed today because it has developed a split - the jobsworth we have at the health centre now went into all sorts of palaver even invoking the EHIC, etc. Think we are going to make a first step move via Seg Soc office in Alcalá and see if we can bypass him. We used to have a disabled guy and he was excellent but, unfortunately, he died , only in his 50s, such a shame. He cared about the people he was dealing with whereas the new one is only looking to clocking off time.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

XTreme said:


> Yes you can.....we've all got cards! Had them for years! And I did query it with my Gestor (I use a young career minded guy in Granada city not a doddering local bumpkin) and our residencia expiring has _no bearing whatsoever_ on our healthcare status.


exactly - you've had them for years.............. if you had just arrived & were trying to get them now you'd stand no chance!!


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## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

xabiachica said:


> exactly - you've had them for years.............. if you had just arrived & were trying to get them now you'd stand no chance!!


Hang on though. It was said earlier you can't get Residencia without showing health cover....now you're saying you can 't have health cover without having Residencia?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

XTreme said:


> Hang on though. It was said earlier you can't get Residencia without showing health cover....now you're saying you can 't have health cover without having Residencia?


good innit


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

XTreme said:


> Hang on though. It was said earlier you can't get Residencia without showing health cover....now you're saying you can 't have health cover without having Residencia?


Isn't that what this thread is all about: "the update to "Residency requirements" "


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

XTreme said:


> Richard.....have you ever considered that you may be too stupid to own a computer?


The thought had crossed my mind.

Two tabs had occurred to me but I couldn't believe that was the answer. It might be but it won't be happening!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

XTreme said:


> Yes....but you're comparing apples and oranges here pesky. A residencia certificate and an illegal build are polar opposites.
> And when you're getting into that sort of territory you're playing Russian Roulette.....because despite thinking you've complied with everything you can still get screwed. I would never even get into that game because you just don't know who you can trust or believe.
> 
> For simple day to day things which are not exactly life changing, then just go with the flow. But bear in mind my environment is very different to yours......this is a very small, isolated town (sub 10K) people, everybody knows everybody, everybody is related to everybody, it's basically a closed shop. And if you get access to the shop then you're pretty well sorted. For whatever reason (probably because we're so different to other foreigners) the people took to us and we've never looked back. We're the only ones though.
> ...


Yes, I think the comparing apples and pears possibly comes down more to the areas we live in than the paperwork we're talking about. Of course I have had officials who have totally bypassed what they were supposed to do and have done what ever they liked because it was Tuesday at ten o'clock and they'd had All Bran for breakfast or because it wasn't Thursday at 11:30 and they'd had coffee and churros...
But, and especially in the last 3 years, officials here have become more straight down the line, do it by the book.
Having said that, go with the flow is good advice anywhere I think, 
BUT I wouldn't advise anyone to not go through the proper channels if at all possible, especially being the foreigner in a country where you hope to settle. If something comes and bites you on the bum it's usually much more difficult to get sorted out than if you'd done it the right way round in the first place.
AND if you've done something the wrong way round because you think the Spanish are lazy and dimwitted, which for some reason some foreigners do, you'll almost certainly get got sooner or later.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

XTreme said:


> Hang on though. It was said earlier you can't get Residencia without showing health cover....now you're saying you can 't have health cover without having Residencia?


You can get private health insurance without residencia, surely? Or a statement from the DWP saying you are entitled to S1 cover?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> You can get private health insurance without residencia, surely? Or a statement from the DWP saying you are entitled to S1 cover?


yes, exactly

or get a job with a contract which will cover you or start working self-employed and pay autónomo




actually the last might be a bit of a poser............. I _think_ I had to have the resident cert before I could register as autónomo :confused2:


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## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> AND if you've done something the wrong way round because you think the Spanish are lazy and dimwitted, which for some reason some foreigners do,


There is a reason people think that Pesky.....it's because, more often than not, that is the case....normally with people who have to deal with the public. Younger people and women generally have a much better work ethic, but there is a huge percentage of unproductive jobsworths in this country.

My best mate Jose Luis the pharmacist, and my gestor Jose Miguel (both are from the city of Granada) are in complete agreement. In fact.....those are their words not mine, and they're two well educated Spaniards in their 30's.

A few years ago, Jose Miguel was a victim of this apathy when he worked in this town for another gestor. After six months the other staff applied so much pressure to get him removed, they eventually let him go.
Why? What was his crime? Basically he was efficient, worked hard, got things done, and made all the others look like the lazy wastes of space that they are.

So he went back to Granada city, opened his own business, and has never looked back.
If Spain had more people with this mentality it would have a much brighter future. But until the unproductive freeloaders are removed from the mainstream, Spain will continue to be it's own worst enemy.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

XTreme said:


> There is a reason people think that Pesky.....it's because, more often than not, that is the case....normally with people who have to deal with the public. Younger people and women generally have a much better work ethic, but there is a huge percentage of unproductive jobsworths in this country.
> 
> My best mate Jose Luis the pharmacist, and my gestor Jose Miguel (both are from the city of Granada) are in complete agreement. In fact.....those are their words not mine, and they're two well educated Spaniards in their 30's.
> 
> ...


There's no denying that there are a lot of people who have been too happy living the good life in government offices up and down the country . And I'm sure we have all come across these people in our dealings with Spanish bureaucracy at some point or other. However, my experience is that things in my area are getting better. The people I've come across in my twice yearly dealings with going off and on self employment (tax office and unemployment office) have got better and better. At the university offices on two occasions recently really good. On the phone and email, not very good. At my daughter's school, really good. At the health centre, really good. OH has contant battles with the area education offices however an is soon to be in a court case where hopefully they will see the error of their ways to the tune of 60€ per month back paid for a year and for the 3 further years that he has been contracted for - yippee!!
The civil servant issue for sure is a big problem for the country, and needs to be sorted out, but like I say, around here the change has begun already! Whether or not the change will continue to be positive in the light of government action, who can tell?


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

My experience has been that civil servants round here are generally very efficient and helpful, but are struggling with cr*ppy computer systems and a legacy of bad data to work with.

For example, one year we received two identical invoices for the car tax. During the process of registering it with Spanish plates someone had entered the serial number with a letter O instead of a zero. The system wouldn't let them amend or delete the record, so they had to make a duplicate. Two records, two bills, same plate number, same car. The staff just have to do the best they can ...


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

xabiachica said:


> yes, exactly
> 
> or get a job with a contract which will cover you or start working self-employed and pay autónomo
> 
> ...


That was the catch 22 situation I found. In the end I had to work a few months in the black, so that we had money going into our non-resident bank account to prove we had a regular income coming in monthly, then apply for residencia and then autonomo (and then sign on for health care).
And then came changing the bank account to resident from non-resident...
That was the worst bit, as it completely messed up our payments while it was sorted out.

But of course, that wasn't really the correct way to do things....
And it is all different now.

And the daft thing was, although in those days we had been warned that we had to show evidence of regular income for residencia, by the time I had sorted it all out, no one bothered to ask us for evidence. Unlike now, where they are asking again, at that time we could have signed up much earlier. :frusty:


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Solwriter said:


> That was the catch 22 situation I found. In the end I had to work a few months in the black, so that we had money going into our non-resident bank account to prove we had a regular income coming in monthly, then apply for residencia and then autonomo (and then sign on for health care).
> And then came changing the bank account to resident from non-resident...
> That was the worst bit, as it completely messed up our payments while it was sorted out.
> 
> ...


it is very :frusty:

I was amazed at the number of people locally who have been working legally here, yet weren't/aren't registered as resident

some must at some stage have had the old residencia cards which had expired - but some had never registered - they just had NIE numbers, jobs with contracts & SS numbers, it was only when they need a resident cert for something that they realised they should register - which was at about the same time that the local office threw its arms up in despair & 'closed until we know what to do'


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## Muddy (Jan 14, 2010)

Thanx everyone for all the replies and posts on this thread. I've just read through the whole thing again 

Spain isn't anywhere near cut and dry when it comes to rules & regs it goes without saying, so I'm still doing a bit of wondering and worrying exactly where I stand with my situation at least regarding the residency requirements. Not working or retired to start with would seem to be a disadvantage, rightly so in some cases! (but not all)!
I'm less put off it must be said than I was a couple of days ago.
Getting permanent Residencia is important to me, but if that's not going to be easy in the short term, it should hopefully fall into place in time as long as I go about things as intelligently as possible.

I'm not the kind of person who likes or follows rules rules rules for rules sake, or unjust laws, but I'll still follow the ones that seem fair and just and you can guess what I might do with the remainder 
Looking forward now to refining my short list of properties to view and just ploughing ahead with day to day things and getting rid of all my junk etc.
*Where to go from here and in what order to get things done is my priority now. *


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

Muddy said:


> *Where to go from here and in what order to get things done is my priority now. *


New list?
New thread?


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## Muddy (Jan 14, 2010)

Solwriter said:


> New list?
> New thread?


Indeed. Old list with some new edits! 
New thread maybe, watch that space!!


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