# Backdating ´Autonomo´status?



## Gringo2013 (Nov 13, 2013)

Hi there, 

When going self-employed in the UK, it´s possible to start working for yourself straight away, as long as you register as being self-employed within a certain time period, 3 months I seem to remember. 

However, here in Spain, is it possible to do this, or can your Autonomo status and tax benefits (compared to being contracted) only start the day when you get your papers ´stamped´, so to speak? 

My friend has been working here without an NIE number or official Autonomo status for a month. 

Is his only option to stay legal to pay the huge 35% tax without the NIE and then start as Autonomo once all the paperwork gets sorted, or is it possible to include this month´s income in the tax year? 

Many thanks


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

I dont know the answer, but I would recommend your friend should see a gestor 

Jo xxx


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

jojo said:


> I dont know the answer, but I would recommend your friend should see a gestor
> 
> Jo xxx


Or better, go to the local sepe (Servicio Público de Empleo Estatal). In the menu at the top the last tab says _oficinas_. Click there to see where the nearest office is
Servicio Público de Empleo Estatal
I don't think you'll be able to back date it, and you'll have to pay a fine, but that's all.


----------



## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Gringo2013 said:


> Hi there,
> 
> When going self-employed in the UK, it´s possible to start working for yourself straight away, as long as you register as being self-employed within a certain time period, 3 months I seem to remember.
> 
> ...


Why would he pay as much as 35% tax? Far too high surely? Also, he certainly would NOT be able to pay tax without a tax number (NIF == NIE).

Perhaps you meant his SS payments (sometimes wrongly referred to as autonomo)?


----------



## Gringo2013 (Nov 13, 2013)

Thanks for the replies,

An academy that my friend is working for said that it´s possible to work on a standard contract as long as you have a social security number, without an NIE/NIF, only with an EU passport, but that you pay 35% income tax, instead of the standard 21(?)%.


----------



## Gringo2013 (Nov 13, 2013)

Well, I´ve been reading into it over the weekend, and it seems like it´s not possible to backdate Spanish self-employment registration, but in the UK it´s possible to start working for yourself straight away, as long as you register with HMRC within 3 months.

Therefore, my friend would be better off doing that, rather tan paying a fine. Then close the UK business and register as Autonomo in Spain to continue trading legally once residency in Spain has been granted (because during the time my friend has worked, he has technically been a resident in the UK still).

Thanks


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Gringo2013 said:


> Well, I´ve been reading into it over the weekend, and it seems like it´s not possible to backdate Spanish self-employment registration, but in the UK it´s possible to start working for yourself straight away, as long as you register with HMRC within 3 months.
> 
> Therefore, my friend would be better off doing that, rather tan paying a fine. Then close the UK business and register as Autonomo in Spain to continue trading legally once residency in Spain has been granted (because during the time my friend has worked, *he has technically been a resident in the UK still*).
> 
> Thanks



if he has been working here, then as far as hacienda (the tax office) is concerned, then he has been living here


----------



## Gringo2013 (Nov 13, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> if he has been working here, then as far as hacienda (the tax office) is concerned, then he has been living here


Yeah right....so you´re trying to say it´s not possible for an EU citizen to work for 4 weeks while living in hotels in a foreign (EU) country, and bill the foreign company as a UK company, what a load of rubbish!

If this were true, how would any business trips be possible, or what would you rather do - try to make all foreign business people to pay taxes in the country where they are staying temporarily (in a hotel, for instance)!

It just seems like you´re trying to be argumentative, without having any actual logic or substance.

From my research, "living" in a country only starts when you become a resident there, and since my friend did not register as a resident, he is therefore a "foreign business man, conducting business from a temporary residence".


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Gringo2013 said:


> Yeah right....so you´re trying to say it´s not possible for an EU citizen to work for 4 weeks while living in hotels in a foreign (EU) country, and bill the foreign company as a UK company, what a load of rubbish!
> 
> If this were true, how would any business trips be possible, or what would you rather do - try to make all foreign business people to pay taxes in the country where they are staying temporarily (in a hotel, for instance)!
> 
> ...


I think what she is saying is just what she said, that according to the tax office, he has been living here. What people do in real life may be and almost certainly is a different thing and there are many laws, customs, rules and ways of doing things that lack "logic or substance" to the foreign resident.

Here residence starts for a EU citizen after 90 days whether he does the paperwork or not


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Gringo2013 said:


> Yeah right....so you´re trying to say it´s not possible for an EU citizen to work for 4 weeks while living in hotels in a foreign (EU) country, and bill the foreign company as a UK company, what a load of rubbish!
> 
> If this were true, how would any business trips be possible, or what would you rather do - try to make all foreign business people to pay taxes in the country where they are staying temporarily (in a hotel, for instance)!
> 
> ...


no - not being argumentative - just saying what hacienda would say, as PW said

I'm confused - you say he has been working for an academy here already (absolutely not the same as doing some work for your job/company 'back home' while on a long holiday) - then that he wants to set up a UK company, be paid by them etc etc..... it sounds like a long way round things - and probably expensive

it would be much easier to just go to a gestor & register as autónomo here - there's a new scheme where he'd pay about 50€ in SS contributions a month to start with

most people would just say 'I'm starting work next month' & take it from there

what happens between him & the academy for the time he has already worked is another matter

far better/easier if they would just give him a contract - a totally different issue


----------



## Gringo2013 (Nov 13, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> no - not being argumentative - just saying what hacienda would say, as PW said
> 
> I'm confused - you say he has been working for an academy here already (absolutely not the same as doing some work for your job/company 'back home' while on a long holiday) - then that he wants to set up a UK company, be paid by them etc etc..... it sounds like a long way round things - and probably expensive
> 
> ...


Hi there,

Thanks for your post, but I don´t think you have thought this through properly, and don´t know much about the subject. This is exemplified by you suggesting that my friend employ a gestor, or indeed sign a ´contracto laboral´, both of which would be more expensive and inconvenient than doing it himself.

In fact, on my (free) advice, he has now successfully set-up as a fully registered Autonomo in Spain, as well as paying the 50 euros a month for the first six months in social security payments (then 30% of 270 euros for 6 months, then 50% of 270 euros for the final 6 months of the promotional period).

This gives him the freedom to work with whom he chooses, and he is financially better off.

However, the whole point of this thread was to ask whether it was possible to backdate this status, but it transpires that it is not.

I know this because I have now had the chance to do a lot of reading on the subject, whereas before it was time pressured, as my friend was needing a solution.

When you say "_what happens between him & the academy for the time he has already worked is another matter_", that is implying illegality and my friend does not (A) have the opportunity to do that, as the schools involved are dead against it, and (B) he does not have the inclination to break the law.

By putting this through the accounts of a UK business, it is completely legal and uses the bi-lateral tax agreement between Spain and the UK, and now that he is also registered as being a resident in Spain, everything will be put through the Spanish Autonomo registration from now on.


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Gringo2013 said:


> Hi there,
> 
> Thanks for your post, but I don´t think you have thought this through properly, and don´t know much about the subject. This is exemplified by you suggesting that my friend employ a gestor, or indeed sign a ´contracto laboral´, both of which would be more expensive and inconvenient than doing it himself.
> 
> ...



ahh - so he already had the UK business up & running?

then yes, that would make sense, & be cost-effective - it just seemed to me like a long, and expensive way round it if he was setting one up from scratch

as for suggesting anything illegal - I'd be the last to suggest that - it's one of my pet hates & something I campaign against locally

but there are creative ways of being legal & paying your way


----------



## Gringo2013 (Nov 13, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> ahh - so he already had the UK business up & running?
> 
> then yes, that would make sense, & be cost-effective - it just seemed to me like a long, and expensive way round it if he was setting one up from scratch
> 
> ...


Nope, as stated before, he is registering a new UK company for this.

As I said, it´s possible to start a business in the UK straight away, without registering first, as long as you register within 3 months and 1 week of starting. Otherwise, you get a 100-pound fine.

There is no ´creative´way around this situation, unless it is illegal. If you can suggest any way, then please do so, otherwise please do not elude to such things.


----------



## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Deleted . Replying to wrong post ! :lol:


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Gringo2013 said:


> Nope, as stated before, he is registering a new UK company for this.
> 
> As I said, it´s possible to start a business in the UK straight away, without registering first, as long as you register within 3 months and 1 week of starting. Otherwise, you get a 100-pound fine.
> 
> There is no ´creative´way around this situation, unless it is illegal. If you can suggest any way, then please do so, otherwise please do not elude to such things.


at least it's sorted out now

he could simply have post-dated his invoices to the academy - I in fact only issue invoices quarterly in any case - so work done in October isn't invoiced until the end of December - nothing illegal about it 

he would still pay tax on everything he had earned in that quarter, although admittedly he would be a an 'autónomo' payment short - but hacienda would be unlikely to be in the lest bit bothered about that - they'd just be happy that he had registered at all!


----------



## Gringo2013 (Nov 13, 2013)

^Your advice is dubious at best.

To stay legal, everything has to be done properly.

My friend would not want to end up in court for working illegally, tax evasion, and defrauding the social security service, which is what you are proposing.

The reason I'm posting today is because the twist to this story (for the benefit of anyone reading this and wanting to learn about the situation) is that a UK company/entity cannot trade with a Spanish company without the UK company registering from UK VAT as well.

From my research on UK tax/financial forums, this can easily take 1-3 months, without fraud checks, and significantly longer if they investigate you for fraud at the time of inception.

As the company income is under £79,000 (approx), it is not necessary for my friend to register for VAT as a mandatory requirement, but instead for this situation, he must voluntarily register for VAT to satisfy the Spanish company's "fiscal tax code" requirement, and for them to be able to confirm the correct legal and VAT status of the UK company on the VIES online register.

UK VAT can, however, be retrospectively applied for, for upto 4 years after beginning trading.

Regards


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Gringo2013 said:


> To stay legal, everything has to be done properly.


Surely the best way for your friend _to stay legal_ is to go directly to the authorities in Spain and the UK and ask what to do, and not waste your time by getting you to ask on forums where the information could well be wrong or misleading or maybe right!


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Gringo2013 said:


> ^Your advice is dubious at best.
> 
> To stay legal, everything has to be done properly.
> 
> ...


I'm not saying that it's what he - or anyone - _should _do

it's just what the vast majority _do _do - they start something to see if it works - if it doesn't look as if it will earn enough to be worth it after a few weeks then they would/should stop & no-one including hacienda would be worried about it

& yes, that is interesting about the IVA/VAT situation

I'm registered for IVA for translation work - I had to charge IVA from the very first invoice - & I earn nothing like 79.000!

I had an issue recently with a 'company' here in Spain from which I bought some office supplies - I needed an IVA invoice

they claimed that because they were an online company registered in the UK & their income was below the threshold, they didn't need to be registered for IVA here - even though the owner & the 'warehouse' are actually in Spain & the majority of their business was in Spain 

I knew this to be rubbish a) there's no threshold here & b) they're in Spain for heaven's sake! - & my gestor threatened to report them 


the website disappeared..........


----------



## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

It is perfectly legal to apply for autonomo /set up an Sl or sll & then to start work. What you cannot do is issue invoices until the paperwork is all done.


----------



## Gringo2013 (Nov 13, 2013)

xabiachica - it seems to me that you're the type of person who has to feel justified in their comments, and you have displayed this personality trait. I'm not saying you're a bad person, as you didn't just tell me to F-off, but giving people financial and legal advice on the basis of criminal activity is not appropriate, regardless of how other people behave. That is no excuse in court, and I would hate to see someone up in court after following your dodgy advice, so this thread is a GOOD source of information with the research that I have done.

By the way, in Spain, if you are IVA registered (in Spain, or VAT reg. in UK), and the other company is registered as well, then you don't put the IVA/VAT on the invoice, so it seems strange about you trying to charge IVA, as I imagine the other company was also already registered.

Maybe you need to do thorough research as I now have, otherwise you could well end up in a problematic situation with the law.


Pesky Wesky - there is no point spending money without good cause. I am an intelligent person, and should have probably researched it more before posting on here, but I do not have the internet at home, am using internet cafes, am very busy and hoped that someone could help me....obviously not here!

Gus-lopez - the point is that you need to apply/register as Autonomo in Spain BEFORE beginning trading.


Regards


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Gringo2013 said:


> xabiachica - it seems to me that you're the type of person who has to feel justified in their comments, and you have displayed this personality trait. I'm not saying you're a bad person, as you didn't just tell me to F-off, but giving people financial and legal advice on the basis of criminal activity is not appropriate, regardless of how other people behave. That is no excuse in court, and I would hate to see someone up in court after following your dodgy advice, so this thread is a GOOD source of information with the research that I have done.
> 
> By the way, in Spain, if you are IVA registered (in Spain, or VAT reg. in UK), and the other company is registered as well, then you don't put the IVA/VAT on the invoice, so it seems strange about you trying to charge IVA, as I imagine the other company was also already registered.
> 
> ...


the other company in fact WASN'T registered in ANY way at all, it transpired  & I wasn't trying to charge IVA - I was the customer & I needed a factura showing the IVA

where did you get the info that you don't put IVA on a factura if both companies are registered - that's the total opposite of what my gestor tells me - & every company I deal with has to put my NIE & address on the factura too - full info of both businesses


----------



## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Gringo2013 said:


> By the way, in Spain, if you are IVA registered (in Spain, or VAT reg. in UK), and the other company is registered as well, then you don't put the IVA/VAT on the invoice, so it seems strange about you trying to charge IVA, as I imagine the other company was also already registered.
> 
> 
> Regards


yes ,but that is for intra Eu sales where the supplier is in one EU state & the client in another,not between 2 spanish companies. Not to my knowledge , anyway.


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Gringo2013 said:


> xabiachica - it seems to me that you're the type of person who has to feel justified in their comments, and you have displayed this personality trait. I'm not saying you're a bad person, as you didn't just tell me to F-off, but giving people financial and legal advice on the basis of criminal activity is not appropriate, regardless of how other people behave. That is no excuse in court, and I would hate to see someone up in court after following your dodgy advice, so this thread is a GOOD source of information with the research that I have done.
> 
> By the way, in Spain, if you are IVA registered (in Spain, or VAT reg. in UK), and the other company is registered as well, then you don't put the IVA/VAT on the invoice, so it seems strange about you trying to charge IVA, as I imagine the other company was also already registered.
> 
> ...



How about *NOT *deciding what type of person someone is from a post - xabiachica has lived and worked in Spain for well over 10 years, she has two children who have grown up in Spain and is a respected member of the spanish community. Her advice is sound and sensible. So if you want to post, then maybe rephrase your thoughts??? We're a good little community

Jo


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Gringo2013 said:


> Pesky Wesky - there is no point spending money without good cause. I am an intelligent person, and should have probably researched it more before posting on here, but I do not have the internet at home, am using internet cafes, am very busy and hoped that someone could help me....obviously not here!
> 
> Regards


I'm reasonably intelligent too, and I'm self employed in Spain and have been for many years without a hitch. 

If you choose to get such information from a forum you should be prepared for info to possibly be out of date or inaccurate. You can get advice, which IMO should be gracefully accepted, after all, you're the one with the needs. If you find out anything different that's great to know too, so that we can keep abreast of the situation
However, I've already told you where you should get your information from if you *really* want to know, and that's from the proper authorities in each country, just like I did.
Hope your "friend" is following all of this 
I must say, you seem to be doing said friend a great favour by going to internet cafés, arguing your way through forums etc. Makes me wonder why the friend can't come on him/ herself

BTW I saw something about VAT and I'm not sure if you're talking about teaching or not as I haven't read my way through all of this, but education doesn't carry VAT in Spain


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I'm reasonably intelligent too, and I'm self employed in Spain and have been for many years without a hitch.
> 
> If you choose to get such information from a forum you should be prepared for info to possibly be out of date or inaccurate. You can get advice, which IMO should be gracefully accepted, after all, you're the one with the needs. If you find out anything different that's great to know too, so that we can keep abreast of the situation
> However, I've already told you where you should get your information from if you *really* want to know, and that's from the proper authorities in each country, just like I did.
> ...


yes you're right - he said that this 'friend' had _*already started working in an academy*_ - so it more than likely IS teaching - so yes, no IVA anyway

it still seems a very long way round things - they way he has done it

what you suggested right at the start of the thread in a very early reply would have been the most straightforward way - just get registered as autónomo & pay whatever fine they gave - if indeed they fined him at all

or just insist upon a proper work contract, as I originally suggested


----------



## Gringo2013 (Nov 13, 2013)

This thread is like quick sand!

Unfortunately, I simply don't have time today to respond to everyone.

Can anyone just please tell me the approximate amount of a fine if my friend went to the Hacienda and told them he worked as Autonomo before registering?

I thought it might be around 100 euros (as is the fine in the UK for not registering within 3 months of beginning trading, well £100), but if it's a fair bit, then it won't be worth my friend doing it.

Thanks


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Gringo2013 said:


> This thread is like quick sand!
> 
> Unfortunately, I simply don't have time today to respond to everyone.
> 
> ...


No idea. Go to local SEPE (Servicio Público de Empleo Estatal, former INEM) and ask DIRECTLY. I would imagine they raise the fine as more time goes by. 
Why can't your friend do this? Why isn't he/she using the Spanish authorities that are available?


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Gringo2013 said:


> This thread is like quick sand!
> 
> Unfortunately, I simply don't have time today to respond to everyone.
> 
> ...




I was under the impression that this friend had already sorted this out by starting a UK company??

or is s/he still working illegally?


----------

