# The 90 Day Rule



## EX-1

Was just reading-up on the ins and outs of what is/isn't required of you if you're coming to Spain as a British Citizen. What's confusing me is the Schengen thing. I understand that the UK is not part of Schengen, but I'm confused how the 90 day rule works for a British Citizen because non Schengen must leave after 90 days.

I'd like to come to Spain and test the waters for say, a year, then decide whether it's for me after I've seen a fair bit of the place. I've read that if a British Citizen wishes to stay longer than 90 days they have to apply for an NIE, but I don't want to do that until I know I want to stay there.

To avoid this I understand I would have to leave within 90 days, but if I did that, would I (as a British citizen) then be able to re-enter and reset my 90 days without having to wait another 90 days first? For example, could I visit France for a day and reset the 90 days?

Is there a minimum time away as for other non Schengen countries?


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## xabiaxica

EX-1 said:


> Was just reading-up on the ins and outs of what is/isn't required of you if you're coming to Spain as a British Citizen. What's confusing me is the Schengen thing. I understand that the UK is not part of Schengen, but I'm confused how the 90 day rule works for a British Citizen because non Schengen must leave after 90 days.
> 
> I'd like to come to Spain and test the waters for say, a year, then decide whether it's for me after I've seen a fair bit of the place. I've read that if a British Citizen wishes to stay longer than 90 days they have to apply for an NIE, but I don't want to do that until I know I want to stay there.
> 
> To avoid this I understand I would have to leave within 90 days, but if I did that, would I (as a British citizen) then be able to re-enter and reset my 90 days without having to wait another 90 days first? For example, could I visit France for a day and reset the 90 days?
> 
> Is there a minimum time away as for other non Schengen countries?



the Schengen ruling is for non-EU citizens - the UK is in the EU

Spain does require registration if you are here more than 3 months, however - here a new thread about that very subject http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...0354-residency-requirements-spain-2013-a.html

in theory - you could leave for a day or so every 80 something days, & never reach 90 days & strictly speaking never have to register - but if questioned the onus would be on you to prove your movements in & out

imo it has to simply be easier to register..... I just don't understand why anyone avoids it :confused2:

bear in mind also, that even if you never actually need to register as resident, you could still clock up 183 days in a calendar year & therefore be tax resident - they are two totally separate issues - and again, if questioned, the onus would be on you to prove your movements in & out


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## Stravinsky

xabiachica said:


> *
> imo it has to simply be easier to register..... I just don't understand why anyone avoids it :confused2:
> *
> bear in mind also, that even if you never actually need to register as resident, you could still clock up 183 days in a calendar year & therefore be tax resident - they are two totally separate issues - and again, if questioned, the onus would be on you to prove your movements in & out


I guess these days its sometimes because they cant fully satisfy the income / health care rules

The tax system being per calendar year, if you timed it correctly (moved here in July and left June the following year), you could avoid being a tax resident and still be here a year


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## EX-1

xabiachica said:


> in theory - you could leave for a day or so every 80 something days, & never reach 90 days & strictly speaking never have to register - but if questioned the onus would be on you to prove your movements in & out
> 
> imo it has to simply be easier to register..... I just don't understand why anyone avoids it :confused2:
> 
> bear in mind also, that even if you never actually need to register as resident, you could still clock up 183 days in a calendar year & therefore be tax resident - they are two totally separate issues - and again, if questioned, the onus would be on you to prove your movements in & out


I don't really want to avoid it, but the situation is pretty much as Stravinsky said; I am unable to meet the requirements for getting residence. I was hoping that if the 90 days would be reset on a border crossing, then perhaps I could do it that way instead. It's funny really because I _don't_ actually want to avoid being tax resident in Spain. I would _prefer_ to be tax resident in Spain but it seems to me that their system shoots itself in the foot because it won't let me!

To be tax resident I'd need an NIE, and to get an NIE I need to have an address (and living in a camper I won't have an address). If it is legal to cross the border and reset the 90 days then there needs to be something in place for people who clock-up more than 183 days if they want them to become tax resident. If they want me to become tax resident, that's fine by me, but how do I do that without an address?




Stravinsky said:


> I guess these days its sometimes because they cant fully satisfy the income / health care rules
> 
> The tax system being per calendar year, if you timed it correctly (moved here in July and left June the following year), you could avoid being a tax resident and still be here a year


The reason is precisely what you stated; I can't satisfy their income requirement. 
I'm a bit puzzled about the other thing though, I mean a year is a year no matter when it starts, and even though a TAX year runs from a specific date, it's still a year


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## xabiaxica

Stravinsky said:


> I guess these days its sometimes because they cant fully satisfy the income / health care rules
> 
> The tax system being per calendar year, if you timed it correctly (moved here in July and left June the following year), you could avoid being a tax resident and still be here a year


but if you have income of less than the requirement - how would you (most people anyway) survive?

I can understand how healthcare might be difficult though


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## baldilocks

I take it that you have temporarily given up on Brazil, then>


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## EX-1

xabiachica said:


> but if you have income of less than the requirement - how would you (most people anyway) survive?
> 
> I can understand how healthcare might be difficult though


I can survive on way less than their requirements, surely anyone could 





baldilocks said:


> I take it that you have temporarily given up on Brazil, then>


Ah, you saw that did you 

Nah, not given up, just like I've not given up on Spain.
No matter what I look into, different countries, different rules, I always seem to come back to pushing for Spain!


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## baldilocks

EX-1 said:


> Ah, you saw that did you


Yes, there are some of us who go visiting other country's forums since there are occasionally threads on them that are relevant also to Spain. You will find me on our neighbours (France and Portugal) and Latin American (Spanish and Portuguese speaking) sites. For example, there is on the Portuguese forum a thread about a disease that can be caught by dogs that is carried by sandflies, also a thread about processionary caterpillars, again dangerous to dogs and also to humans and neither respect international boundaries therefore relevant to Spain.


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## EX-1

baldilocks said:


> Yes, there are some of us who go visiting other country's forums since there are occasionally threads on them that are relevant also to Spain. You will find me on our neighbours (France and Portugal) and Latin American (Spanish and Portuguese speaking) sites. For example, there is on the Portuguese forum a thread about a disease that can be caught by dogs that is carried by sandflies, also a thread about processionary caterpillars, again dangerous to dogs and also to humans and neither respect international boundaries therefore relevant to Spain.


You missed my one on Australia then, but before too long I think I'm going to need to forget destinations on earth altogether and start looking into cruising the moon instead.

Yes, I surf the other forum areas as well.
In fact I have this forum to thank for bringing those caterpillars to my attention some time ago!


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## EX-1

I take it from the severe lack of solid responses that I've stumbled upon yet _another_ chunk of beaurocratic bull then 

So basically, it looks as if they're forcing people to be illegal and then issuing fines for it. It is *legal* for me to cross the border and reset my 90 days for as many times as I wish. It seems it's also a *legal requirement* to register for Spanish tax if I clock over 183 days in a year. Yet if I follow this rule they will *not* allow me to register for Spanish tax even though they require it, in effect forcing me to be in an illegal situation.

It is surely illegal to force a person into illegal activity and then fine them for it


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## Stravinsky

EX-1 said:


> I take it from the severe lack of solid responses that I've stumbled upon yet _another_ chunk of beaurocratic bull then
> 
> So basically, it looks as if they're forcing people to be illegal and then issuing fines for it. It is *legal* for me to cross the border and reset my 90 days for as many times as I wish. It seems it's also a *legal requirement* to register for Spanish tax if I clock over 183 days in a year. Yet if I follow this rule they will *not* allow me to register for Spanish tax even though they require it, in effect forcing me to be in an illegal situation.
> 
> It is surely illegal to force a person into illegal activity and then fine them for it


Its a strange one. On the one hand they require you to sign on the foreigners list on the 90 day rule. On the other hand, if you dont satisfy the requirements then they dont allow you to. However, above all this is the fact that they cant really actually stop you from living here, because its part of the EU.

On the tax front, you would be spanning two tax years on the scenario I gave. So year 1 you wouldnt be a tax resident because you hadnt spent over 6 months in that tax year in Spain. In year two, the same. After that year though you are struggling as you would have to reset


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## brocher

EX-1 said:


> I take it from the severe lack of solid responses that I've stumbled upon yet _another_ chunk of beaurocratic bull then
> 
> So basically, it looks as if they're forcing people to be illegal and then issuing fines for it. It is *legal* for me to cross the border and reset my 90 days for as many times as I wish. It seems it's also a *legal requirement* to register for Spanish tax if I clock over 183 days in a year. Yet if I follow this rule they will *not* allow me to register for Spanish tax even though they require it, in effect forcing me to be in an illegal situation.
> 
> It is surely illegal to force a person into illegal activity and then fine them for it


No one is trying to force you to do anything illegal. Quite the contrary really, they are trying to make you do things legally, and it seems they are succeeding or you wouldn't be finding it all so difficult, and wasting energy trying to dream up ways to beat the system.

You said you will be running a business so all you have to do is sign up as self employed in Spain, pay your National Insurance (260€ approx) and you won't have to satisfy the income and healthcare requirements.

If you say you can't afford to pay this, then you are showing that you can not afford to live on the budget you claim!!

As to tax, that is also very simple. You will be UK tax resident for the part year you live in Spain. You will get a UTR and declare your income to HMRC and pay your tax accordingly. if you earn less than the tax threshold you will not have to pay anything- simple!

After that you will be Spanish tax resident if you stay in Spain for the full tax year. You will follow the same procedure with the Spanish authorites - fiill in your assessment, pay what you are due- or pay nothing if you fall below the threshold. If you do not stay in Spain for the full year, you will continue to be UK tax resident, and again, complete your assessment.

There really is no need to dodge the system unless you are trying to illegally avoid paying your dues.


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## EX-1

Stravinsky said:


> Its a strange one. On the one hand they require you to sign on the foreigners list on the 90 day rule. On the other hand, if you dont satisfy the requirements then they dont allow you to. However, above all this is the fact that they cant really actually stop you from living here, because its part of the EU.
> 
> On the tax front, you would be spanning two tax years on the scenario I gave. So year 1 you wouldnt be a tax resident because you hadnt spent over 6 months in that tax year in Spain. In year two, the same. After that year though you are struggling as you would have to reset


Cheers, Strav!

Sounds like it's a habit with them then. Either way it's not going to stop me coming there. I asked a question about the USA today, thought I'd give the other possibilities one last go before I really put my all into Spain. I'm sticking to my goal of coming to Spain, I'm entitled to and I'm going to.

So anyway, stop being a tease and tell me what you meant when you said they can't actually stop me from living there. I'd have thought so too, but if only it were that simple I would be prepared to put up with whatever beurocratic bull I was up against, just as long as I was within my right to do what I was doing.

Tell me 

BTW, thanks for the heads-up on what you meant with the TAX, I think I get it now


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## brocher

EX-1 said:


> Cheers, Strav!
> 
> Sounds like it's a habit with them then. Either way it's not going to stop me coming there. I asked a question about the USA today, thought I'd give the other possibilities one last go before I really put my all into Spain. I'm sticking to my goal of coming to Spain, I'm entitled to and I'm going to.
> 
> So anyway, stop being a tease and tell me what you meant when you said they can't actually stop me from living there. I'd have thought so too, but if only it were that simple I would be prepared to put up with whatever beurocratic bull I was up against, just as long as I was within my right to do what I was doing.
> 
> Tell me
> 
> BTW, thanks for the heads-up on what you meant with the TAX, I think I get it now


It' s explained on another current thread , they can't actually throw you out just because you don't register but they can make it near impossible for you to live legally and comfortable. As explained in your last thread, you won't be able to register or insure your vehicle, pay your tax and NI, etc, etc. Just thinking you wlllneed to get Internet somehow to run your business. I assume you'd need a dongle or something but you won't be able to do that either without your NIE.


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## EX-1

brocher said:


> No one is trying to force you to do anything illegal. Quite the contrary really, they are trying to make you do things legally, and it seems they are succeeding or you wouldn't be finding it all so difficult, and wasting energy trying to dream up ways to beat the system.
> 
> You said you will be running a business so all you have to do is sign up as self employed in Spain, pay your National Insurance (260€ approx) and you won't have to satisfy the income and healthcare requirements.
> 
> If you say you can't afford to pay this, then you are showing that you can not afford to live on the budget you claim!!
> 
> As to tax, that is also very simple. You will be UK tax resident for the part year you live in Spain. You will get a UTR and declare your income to HMRC and pay your tax accordingly. if you earn less than the tax threshold you will not have to pay anything- simple!
> 
> After that you will be Spanish tax resident if you stay in Spain for the full tax year. You will follow the same procedure with the Spanish authorites - fiill in your assessment, pay what you are due- or pay nothing if you fall below the threshold. If you do not stay in Spain for the full year, you will continue to be UK tax resident, and again, complete your assessment.
> 
> There really is no need to dodge the system unless you are trying to illegally avoid paying your dues.


I never said I'd be running a business, I merely mentioned it as a possibility when you asked about ways of sustaining such a lifestlye. I also went on to mention that if the piss-taking amount of contributions is not offset by enough income from a business, then the other option is to _not_ go down the self-employment route. I'd rather roam around and look for work, freelance or whatever.

They cannot demand self-employment contributions when you're not self-employed. I'm not trying to get out of paying _anything_ I'm supposed to pay, there is a difference between cheating the system and beating the system. One is illegal and the other is common sense. To put it simply, I will be over there looking for work or freelancing. I will _not_ be paying self-employment contributions because I will _not_ be self employed, simple as that.

One other thing I won't be doing is giving them a chance to fine me, because as I said, I intend to eventually gain permanent residence over there and that is never going to happen if I do something wrong. I've said it enough times, everything I do must be legal (and will be legal). If I were going to do something illegal I very much doubt I'd be here asking questions about how to navigate the beaurocratic crap they put in place!


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## Stravinsky

EX-1 said:


> Cheers, Strav!
> 
> Sounds like it's a habit with them then. Either way it's not going to stop me coming there. I asked a question about the USA today, thought I'd give the other possibilities one last go before I really put my all into Spain. I'm sticking to my goal of coming to Spain, I'm entitled to and I'm going to.
> 
> So anyway, stop being a tease and tell me what you meant when you said they can't actually stop me from living there. I'd have thought so too, but if only it were that simple I would be prepared to put up with whatever beurocratic bull I was up against, just as long as I was within my right to do what I was doing.
> 
> Tell me
> 
> BTW, thanks for the heads-up on what you meant with the TAX, I think I get it now


Its simple. Spain is part of the European Union, and as such is party to the EU constitution which basically says that an EU citizen has the right to reside and work within the EU. Its a basic right, and part of what the EU is all about.

So they may be able to chuck people out if they are undesirables, but the practice of excluding people because of their health abilities or income is open to question


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## EX-1

brocher said:


> It' s explained on another current thread , they can't actually throw you out just because you don't register but they can make it near impossible for you to live legally and comfortable. As explained in your last thread, you won't be able to register or insure your vehicle, pay your tax and NI, etc, etc. Just thinking you wlllneed to get Internet somehow to run your business. I assume you'd need a dongle or something but you won't be able to do that either without your NIE.


Again, I never said I was going to run a business 
Anyway, I don't have to worry about internet access, I'll have it both ways, both free and paid using Wi-fi or 3G.

Regards the other stuff, well then, they would indeed be forcing me to be illegal. They have put in place a policy that is effectively unenforceable. They can tell me to leave even though they have no right to do that? Then, if I don't do *what they had no right to tell me to do*, they can make it difficult for me by *refusing to allow me to register for tax*?

I can then get fined for not being registered for tax?

I see two illegal activities there. The first being them telling fellow Europeans to get out of the country if they don't have the right to do that. The second being that they issue fines for not being tax registered even though the person was not allowed to register for tax after being there perfectly legally under a system that they themselves put in place.

Let me reiterate this.

If it is legal to re-enter and reset that 90 days as many times as you wish, it is highly likely that people will be there over 183 days. They are then demanding that you register for tax if you reach that time but they are refusing people based on "circumstances" despite the fact that they've managed to (and have been legally allowed to) stay there over 183 days _without_ conforming to their minimum income crap.

They can then fine you for not doing something you tried to do, but _they_ stopped you from doing. This is serious stuff, and you'd think there'd be at least one solicitor out there wide enough to notice it wouldn't you. You know, some so-called well-educated legal boffin that would have spotted this crap.

Nah, leave it to the poor boy from Blighty


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## Pesky Wesky

EX-1 said:


> They can then fine you for not doing something you tried to do, but _they_ stopped you from doing. This is serious stuff, and you'd think there'd be at least one solicitor out there wide enough to notice it wouldn't you. You know, some so-called well-educated legal boffin that would have spotted this crap.
> 
> Nah, leave it to the poor boy from Blighty


Actually, I think you'll find that boffins and non boffins from all over the world have "spotted this crap" long before the bloke from Blighty!
Getting anything done about it is another matter involving taking it to various courts, investing a good chunk of your time to it and many hours of frustration and dismay. I could get all het up about this, but really it's not going to help anyone who's trying to get over here and legally now.
So, perhaps it's time to make up your mind - come over and don't do it legally and don't tell us about it, or forget Spain for the meantime.
Hope you get things sorted out soon.


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## EX-1

Stravinsky said:


> Its simple. Spain is part of the European Union, and as such is party to the EU constitution which basically says that an EU citizen has the right to reside and work within the EU. Its a basic right, and part of what the EU is all about.
> 
> So they may be able to chuck people out if they are undesirables, but the practice of excluding people because of their health abilities or income is open to question


Cheers Strav, so do you know of an "official" website where this is detailed?


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## EX-1

Pesky Wesky said:


> Actually, I think you'll find that boffins and non boffins from all over the world have "spotted this crap" long before the bloke from Blighty!
> Getting anything done about it is another matter involving taking it to various courts, investing a good chunk of your time to it and many hours of frustration and dismay. I could get all het up about this, but really it's not going to help anyone who's trying to get over here and legally now.
> So, perhaps it's time to make up your mind - come over and don't do it legally and don't tell us about it, or forget Spain for the meantime.
> Hope you get things sorted out soon.


Cheers Pesky, you're right of course, and I was just being sarcastic about the poor boy from Blighty. Of course it has been spotted, but the disturbing thing is that nothing successful has been done about it otherwise this crap would not be in place!

The really unfortunate thing is I cannot just sit around and let what precious little savings I have get eaten away in England. I mean even people on decent incomes can't cope so believe me, neither can I. My money just goes out at an alarming rate so I have to get out of here quickly otherwise I'm going to be homeless. Doing things on the quiet isn't an option for me because I can't risk having anything against me when I finally get to apply for permanent residence.


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## baldilocks

EX-1 said:


> Cheers Pesky, you're right of course, and I was just being sarcastic about the poor boy from Blighty. Of course it has been spotted, but the disturbing thing is that nothing successful has been done about it otherwise this crap would not be in place!
> 
> The really unfortunate thing is I cannot just sit around and let what precious little savings I have get eaten away in England. I mean even people on decent incomes can't cope so believe me, neither can I. My money just goes out at an alarming rate so I have to get out of here quickly otherwise I'm going to be homeless. Doing things on the quiet isn't an option for me because I can't risk having anything against me when I finally get to apply for permanent residence.


You realise that to qualify for permanent residence, you have to show that you have been living here (legitimately) for five years.


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## EX-1

baldilocks said:


> You realise that to qualify for permanent residence, you have to show that you have been living here (legitimately) for five years.


Yes Baldi, I do, which is why I've stressed seemingly endless times already that I am only interested in doing this "the legal way".


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## brocher

EX-1 said:


> Cheers Pesky, you're right of course, and I was just being sarcastic about the poor boy from Blighty. Of course it has been spotted, but the disturbing thing is that nothing successful has been done about it otherwise this crap would not be in place!
> 
> The really unfortunate thing is I cannot just sit around and let what precious little savings I have get eaten away in England. I mean even people on decent incomes can't cope so believe me, neither can I. My money just goes out at an alarming rate so I have to get out of here quickly otherwise I'm going to be homeless. Doing things on the quiet is not an option for me because I can't risk having anything against me when I finally get to apply for permanent residence.


I think you're missing the point- many points!

When you leave ,the UK, *legally*, you have to tell HMRC whether you are leaving a. permanently b.temporarily c.you're not sure. You do not wish to/ cannot afford to become permanent in Spain at the moment, so therefore, you must tell HMRC that you are b. or c.That automatically means you are UK tax resident for the remainder of that tax year, so hopping in and out of Spain is irrelevant - *legally*.

Becoming Spanish tax resident, and just registering on the NI list, are two entirely separate things. *Legally* you have to register within 90 days of arrival, popping over the border is irrelevant, that's just going for a little holiday, which we all do wherever we live.

Freelancing-*legally*, that means paying the autonomo payment of 260€\ month.

Paid work - *legally*, you will have to find paid, contracted work to satisfy the NI registration requirements, no casual, uncontracted *illegal* work. You may be lucky, but there is mass unemployment in Spain. Once you have contracted work, you will need to register for social security and you need the NI number to do that.


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## jojo

EX-1 said:


> The really unfortunate thing is I cannot just sit around and let what precious little savings I have get eaten away in England. I mean even people on decent incomes can't cope so believe me, neither can I. My money just goes out at an alarming rate so I have to get out of here quickly otherwise I'm going to be homeless. Doing things on the quiet isn't an option for me because I can't risk having anything against me when I finally get to apply for permanent residence.


I know things aint good in the UK, but I can assure you, Spain isnt any better and its really not quite as bad as you're making out??????

Jo xxx


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## EX-1

brocher said:


> I think you're missing the point- many points!
> 
> When you leave ,the UK, *legally*, you have to tell HMRC whether you are leaving a. permanently b.temporarily c.you're not sure. You do not wish to/ cannot afford to become permanent in Spain at the moment, so therefore, you must tell HMRC that you are b. or c.That automatically means you are UK tax resident for the remainder of that tax year, so hopping in and out of Spain is irrelevant - *legally*.
> 
> Becoming Spanish tax resident, and just registering on the NI list, are two entirely separate things. *Legally* you have to register within 90 days of arrival, popping over the border is irrelevant, that's just going for a little holiday, which we all do wherever we live.
> 
> Freelancing-*legally*, that means paying the autonomo payment of 260€\ month.
> 
> Paid work - *legally*, you will have to find paid, contracted work to satisfy the NI registration requirements, no casual, uncontracted *illegal* work. You may be lucky, but there is mass unemployment in Spain. Once you have contracted work, you will need to register for social security and you need the NI number to do that.


First of all I need to clarify what I meant by "Freelancing", I mean that rather than being fixed in one place all the time I would be moving around looking for work, much like a freelancer does (but from an employer, not self-employed). In other words, I would be prepared to stay put if I liked the job and it paid enough, but if not, I would move on and look for something else. I shouldn't have used the term "Freelancing".

So are you telling me that all I have to do to sort the tax residency problem out is to tell HMRC that I will be going to Spain permanently but cannot afford to become tax resident yet? That in turn would automatically protect me from being fined in Spain for not being Tax registered over there?


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## EX-1

jojo said:


> I know things aint good in the UK, but I can assure you, Spain isnt any better and its really not quite as bad as you're making out??????
> 
> Jo xxx


Hi jojo, well put it this way, it's so bad for me now that I've taken to selling absolutely everything I own that will not be conductive to camper living. In addition to that I've been living on less than a tenner a week in food for a long time now, even at home. Thankfully the white label stuff is often better than the branded stuff. To top it all off they intend to stop my money in a few weeks time because I refuse to work for £70 per week on one of their slave labour work schemes.

In other words, I effectively have no income and nothing but extortionate bills to pay out. I can't afford to sit around because every day that goes by means my savings get less and less and _nothing_ comes back in. It's only a matter of time until I won't even be able to afford a van!

Sounds dramatic, but no income means homelessness coming if I can't get out of here.

Anyway, thanks for the three kisses, I needed a bloody good snog


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## baldilocks

EX-1 said:


> Anyway, thanks for the three kisses, I needed a bloody good snog


Get in the queue


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## EX-1

baldilocks said:


> Get in the queue


Dammit, Baldi, you old goat


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## brocher

EX-1 said:


> First of all I need to clarify what I meant by "Freelancing", I mean that rather than being fixed in one place all the time I would be moving around looking for work, much like a freelancer does (but from an employer, not self-employed). In other words, I would be prepared to stay put if I liked the job and it paid enough, but if not, I would move on and look for something else. I shouldn't have used the term "Freelancing".
> 
> *So are you telling me that all I have to do to sort the tax residency problem out is to tell HMRC that I will be going to Spain permanently but cannot afford to become tax resident yet? That in turn would automatically protect me from being fined in Spain for not being Tax registered over there?*


No, if not in UK system then you'd be in Spanish system.... and they decide, not you.


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## snikpoh

EX-1 said:


> ...
> 
> They cannot demand self-employment contributions when you're not self-employed. I'm not trying to get out of paying _anything_ I'm supposed to pay, there is a difference between cheating the system and beating the system. One is illegal and the other is common sense. To put it simply, I will be over there looking for work or freelancing. I will _not_ be paying self-employment contributions because I will _not_ be self employed, simple as that.
> 
> ...



I have tried to stay out of this 'argument' because it seems to be going nowhere and you don't seem to be getting what you're being told.

Anyway, what do you think is the difference between 'freelancing' and being 'self-employed' - they are the same (always were when I was a freelancer). So, if you wish to be a freelancer (as you state) then to do this legally in Spain, you will have to go 'autonomo' and pay the 260e per month.


I think you may also be confused between being resident (physically) and being tax resident. To be resident, you need to sign on the register of foreigners - this requires proof of income, health care etc. To be tax resident, you do nothing other than be in Spain for more than 182 days in a calendar year. So, if you keep popping over the border, you will very soon be deemed tax resident!!!!!!


----------



## EX-1

brocher said:


> No, if not in UK system then you'd be in Spanish system.... and they decide, not you.


Decide what? Whether I'm tax resident here or there, or something else?




snikpoh said:


> I have tried to stay out of this 'argument' because it seems to be going nowhere and you don't seem to be getting what you're being told.
> 
> Anyway, what do you think is the difference between 'freelancing' and being 'self-employed' - they are the same (always were when I was a freelancer). So, if you wish to be a freelancer (as you state) then to do this legally in Spain, you will have to go 'autonomo' and pay the 260e per month.
> 
> 
> I think you may also be confused between being resident (physically) and being tax resident. To be resident, you need to sign on the register of foreigners - this requires proof of income, health care etc. To be tax resident, you do nothing other than be in Spain for more than 182 days in a calendar year. So, if you keep popping over the border, you will very soon be deemed tax resident!!!!!!


It's not an argument, I'm asking questions that's all, but you're right about me not getting a lot of it. Regards the "Freelancing", I already explained what I meant by that (please see my previous post to brocher).

I'm not confised about the difference between being tax resident and physically resident, how can anybody be confused about the difference? That said, you make it sound as if I'll automatically become tax resident if I stay more than 182 days in a year (which is great if that is the case). But how is that so if I'm required to have an NIE to become Tax resident and they won't allow me to have an NIE without an address?

Also, if this is the case then what address would they list as my address if I haven't given them one?


----------



## jojo

EX-1 said:


> Decide what? Whether I'm tax resident here or there, or something else?
> 
> 
> 
> It's not an argument, I'm asking questions that's all, but you're right about me not getting a lot of it. Regards the "Freelancing", I already explained what I meant by that (please see my previous post to brocher).
> 
> I'm not confised about the difference between being tax resident and physically resident, how can anybody be confused about the difference? That said, you make it sound as if I'll automatically become tax resident if I stay more than 182 days in a year (which is great if that is the case). But how is that so if I'm required to have an NIE to become Tax resident and they won't allow me to have an NIE without an address?
> 
> Also, if this is the case then what address would they list as my address if I haven't given them one?


An NIE has nothing to do with tax at all. If you live in Spain for more than 182 days, you pay tax, you need to be a resident, which means you need to prove an income. If you freelance, you'll need to pay autonomo as well as taxes. 

Of course, if you dont do any of that and live in the UK for more than 182 days, then you wont have to pay taxes in Spain, but you will in the UK in most cases I think tax is a tad higher in spain???

Jo xxx


----------



## Pesky Wesky

EX-1 said:


> Cheers Pesky, you're right of course, and I was just being sarcastic about the poor boy from Blighty. Of course it has been spotted, but the disturbing thing is that nothing successful has been done about it otherwise this crap would not be in place!
> 
> The really unfortunate thing is I cannot just sit around and let what precious little savings I have get eaten away in England. I mean even people on decent incomes can't cope so believe me, neither can I. My money just goes out at an alarming rate so I have to get out of here quickly otherwise I'm going to be homeless. Doing things on the quiet isn't an option for me because I can't risk having anything against me when I finally get to apply for permanent residence.


Well, I do think it's a shame that you can't just drive around doing what you want.
But you can't on the surface of it, so plan B??


----------



## EX-1

This is starting to get a bit confusing so please let me clarify a few things:

- I will *not* be freelancing and I will *not* be self employed.
- I will be traveling around, getting a feel for different areas of Spain, and keeping an eye out for employment.
- I have no problem about becoming tax resident, no problem whatsoever!
- I _want_ to become tax resident in Spain because I intend to stay permanently.
- I will *not* have an address as I will be living in a camper.
- I don't mind leaving to reset my 90 days for as long as it takes.

Obviously I won't need to leave to reset my 90 days when I find a job, because then, I would be able to meet the requirements.
The problem I face is staying there in order to find the job in the first place!


----------



## brocher

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well, I do think it's a shame that you can't just drive around doing what you want.
> But you can't on the surface of it, so plan B??


Well, you can just drive around Spain but sadly, you won't be able to do just whatever you want.

You don't have to register, they can't throw you out for that BUT then it's back to- you can't register your vehicle, insure it, access "paid for" broadband (except in Internet cafe!), work legally, access healthcare if you're taken I'll, etc, etc.

Seems to be back to the 'having money' thing. You can't legally work, so you're savings are going to disappear fast. 

And, of course, with unemployment through the roof in Spain, the chances of finding work are much worse than in the UK, and there'll be no access to benefits, even a basic prescription, etc.


----------



## jojo

EX-1 said:


> This is starting to get a bit confusing so please let me clarify a few things:
> 
> - I will *not* be freelancing and I will *not* be self employed.
> - I will be traveling around, getting a feel for different areas of Spain, and keeping an eye out for employment.
> - I have no problem about becoming tax resident, no problem whatsoever!
> - I _want_ to become tax resident in Spain because I intend to stay permanently.
> - I will *not* have an address as I will be living in a camper.
> - I don't mind leaving to reset my 90 days for as long as it takes.
> 
> Obviously I won't need to leave to reset my 90 days when I find a job, because then, I would be able to meet the requirements.
> The problem I face is staying there in order to find the job in the first place!


If its confusing its because despite what you say, it sounds to me like you're trying to avoid paying tax on your income in both Spain and the UK by making out you dont exist - unless a proper job comes along. 

You move to Spain and you only stay for 90 days - you pay tax on your income in the UK

You move to Spain and wish to stay longer - you must become a resident, pay autonomo and pay tax on your income.

You move to Spain, manage to get an employed, contracted job within the 90 days, you can use that contract to become a resident and the tax will be paid by your employer


Those are the choices

Jo xxx


----------



## EX-1

jojo said:


> An NIE has nothing to do with tax at all. If you live in Spain for more than 182 days, you pay tax, you need to be a resident, which means you need to prove an income. If you freelance, you'll need to pay autonomo as well as taxes.
> 
> Of course, if you dont do any of that and live in the UK for more than 182 days, then you wont have to pay taxes in Spain, but you will in the UK in most cases I think tax is a tad higher in spain???
> 
> Jo xxx


To be honest I'd rather live in Spain with a higher tax than live in this depressing, overpriced hell-hole. Spain is paradise compared to this place, for me it is anyway. I want to see the back of England for good and it can't come soon enough, believe me. I simply cannot stomach this place any longer, nor can I stomach the "Cants" that can't run it.

*Feel free to edit a character in the word "Cants" to one more befitting those resposible


----------



## jojo

EX-1 said:


> To be honest I'd rather live in Spain with a higher tax than live in this depressing, overpriced hell-hole. Spain is paradise compared to this place, for me it is anyway. I want to see tghe back of England for good and it can't come soon enough, believe me. I simply cannot stomach this place any longer, nor can I stomach the "Cants" that can't run it.
> 
> * Feel free to edit a a character in the word "Cants" to one more befitting those resposible


You're just getting angry now. Dont! Get logical. The one thing that I will say is that you sound like I did before we moved to Spain. Its only when you leave the UK and see the hardship, injustice, harshness and incompetent bureaucracy in Spain, you realise that actually the UK really isnt that bad. 

Jo xxx


----------



## EX-1

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well, I do think it's a shame that you can't just drive around doing what you want.
> But you can't on the surface of it, so plan B??


Which would B? 




jojo said:


> If its confusing its because despite what you say, it sounds to me like you're trying to avoid paying tax on your income in both Spain and the UK by making out you dont exist - unless a proper job comes along.
> 
> You move to Spain and you only stay for 90 days - you pay tax on your income in the UK
> 
> You move to Spain and wish to stay longer - you must become a resident, pay autonomo and pay tax on your income.
> 
> You move to Spain, manage to get an employed, contracted job within the 90 days, you can use that contract to become a resident and the tax will be paid by your employer
> 
> 
> Those are the choices
> 
> Jo xxx


What on earth is going on here?

It's as if half of my posts have slipped under the radar and not been seen. I am _not_ trying to avoid tax, *I want to be tax resident in Spain* so how on earth you come to that conclusion is totally unfathomable. the only thing I'm trying to "avoid" is being bled to death for things that I can get by without. I don't _need_ property and I don't _need_ the grid. Not only do I not need them, I _do not want_ them!

Nothing would please me more than to come to Spain and become tax resident because I have no intentions of returning to England. Nothing would please me more than to stick two fingers up the HMRC and to inform them another country will benefit from my skills (the cants in UK government are not using me as a public slave). And yes, I know England can have that 'safe and welcome' feeling when you return from another country, I've had that too, but it doesn't change the fact that I cannot afford to live here and I find it depressingly miserable anyway. I don't want to live here and I'm not going to live here much longer.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I will escape this hole even if it kills me.




jojo said:


> You're just getting angry now. Dont! Get logical. The one thing that I will say is that you sound like I did before we moved to Spain. Its only when you leave the UK and see the hardship, injustice, harshness and incompetent bureaucracy in Spain, you realise that actually the UK really isnt that bad.
> 
> Jo xxx


Yes I'm angry. I've been at this "Spain" thing for well over a year now, constantly trying to navigate the bull they have in place! I'd have thought that getting logical would involve being sensible, but it seems that being sensible isn't worth doing either. England is not an option for me, I have no interest in England at all. I've lived here all my life and that is long enough for me to know that it is time to leave it behind - I only wish I'd done it five or six years ago, I'd be in a very different position than I am now.

Best thing for England if you're poor, is to wave bye bye to her as soon as you possible can


----------



## EX-1

brocher said:


> Well, you can just drive around Spain but sadly, you won't be able to do just whatever you want.
> 
> You don't have to register, they can't throw you out for that BUT then it's back to- you can't register your vehicle, insure it, access "paid for" broadband (except in Internet cafe!), work legally, access healthcare if you're taken I'll, etc, etc.
> 
> Seems to be back to the 'having money' thing. You can't legally work, so you're savings are going to disappear fast.
> 
> And, of course, with unemployment through the roof in Spain, the chances of finding work are much worse than in the UK, and there'll be no access to benefits, even a basic prescription, etc.


But all I want to do is come to Spain and explore, and while I do that, keep an eye open for employment. Anyone would think I'm trying to do something unspeakable or something - how difficult they make it! It's discrimination against the poor, that is what it is, there is no other way of looking at it. Anyone who needs proof need only ask themselves, would this problem I face exist if I had more money?

No, it would not.

It's exactly the same with marriages as well, they have systems in place that effectively mean the poor cannot even fall in love and get married unless they meet the European minimum income crap. In the UK for example, they can send your husband or wife back to their home country if a minimum income isn't met (even though you're married). It should be up to a husband and wife to work out their own lives between themselves, not up to a bunch of cants in suits sat around a table in Brussels. Again, this is nothing less than discrimination against the poor because they would _not_ be effected by it if they had more money - the equation really _is_ that simple.

Anger isn't the word to describe that one, seriously, I honestly can't think of a word sufficient for it 
I mean, words like "scum" and "lowlife" don't even scrape the surface for that one.

As for the internet, like I said, I can use free Wi-fi or I'd just get a sim and use 3G from a modem built into a phone or tablet.


----------



## EX-1

Ah, found it, something jojo might want to take a look at: 48% of Brits want to get out of Britain, says new Sun survey | The Sun |Features

Anyone not convinced of what an epic failure England is now (and I really do mean epic), perhaps this will shed some light on the reality of the situation. Lucky for some eh, those that meet the minimum requirement crap I mean? And just in case there's anyone out there who still hasn't figured out why the minimum requirements _really_ exist, take a look at that link and take a wild guess.

That's *48%* and it's no misprint.
48% = EPIC failure, might as well say half the population.

Looks like my escape alarm is in top form then 
The ship has already sunk and it will not be recovering any time soon.


----------



## jojo

EX-1 said:


> Ah, found it, something jojo might want to take a look at: 48% of Brits want to get out of Britain, says new Sun survey | The Sun |Features
> 
> Anyone not convinced of what an epic failure England is now (and I really do mean epic), perhaps this will shed some light on the reality of the situation. Lucky for some eh, those that meet the minimum requirement crap I mean? And just in case there's anyone out there who still hasn't figured out why the minimum requirements _really_ exist, take a look at that link and take a wild guess.
> 
> That's *48%* and it's no misprint.
> 48% = EPIC failure, might as well say half the population.
> 
> Looks like my escape alarm is in top form then
> The ship has already sunk and it will not be recovering any time soon.


 I read "The Sun" too. Whatever it says, its one hell of a lot worse in Spain FACT!. Do you really think we'd have up sticks and moved back to the UK if we could have made it work full time in Spain????? NO! Luckily, we didnt burn our UK bridges and we are doing nicely in the UK - and altho we dont need to, we have some good safety nets should it all fail here. Something there isnt in Spain. 

No one loves Spain more than I do, which is why I pop over any opportunity I get, but the grass isnt greener and its a very harsh country - evenmore so for those of us who dont speak the language fluently and are essentially British. The one thing I've found is that its easy to moan about Britain, to want to leave because its "bad"............... UNTIL YOU DO! Then you find that actually, other countries - (sadly Spain) are in a much worse state and doesnt have any help for anyone. According to the media in Brtiain, British are fed up with foreigners coming over taking their jobs, benefits and social housing. Well the Spanish are fed up with the Brits going over and taking their jobs (they dont need to worry about the benefits or social housing cos there isnt any - not even for them long term)

My point is that its no good hating your country and its easy to do so when you dont know how much worse the alternatives are!

The best thing you can do is try it. You have been warned so thats going to help you make contingency plans. "Forewarned is forearmed" as they say

Jo xxx


----------



## Claire la richarde

OP, is your camper left hand drive? 

Sorry if you've already said - I have read the thread carefully but couldn't see any mention of it.


----------



## Stravinsky

EX-1 said:


> Ah, found it, something jojo might want to take a look at: 48% of Brits want to get out of Britain, says new Sun survey | The Sun |Features
> 
> Anyone not convinced of what an epic failure England is now (and I really do mean epic), perhaps this will shed some light on the reality of the situation. Lucky for some eh, those that meet the minimum requirement crap I mean? And just in case there's anyone out there who still hasn't figured out why the minimum requirements _really_ exist, take a look at that link and take a wild guess.
> 
> That's *48%* and it's no misprint.
> 48% = EPIC failure, might as well say half the population.
> 
> Looks like my escape alarm is in top form then
> The ship has already sunk and it will not be recovering any time soon.


Your logic is beginning to worry me now!

If you like to believe the British Press, great. They are always doing articles on what a terrible place Spain is, and delight in it.

But ..... please tell me ...... do you think 48% of Brits have any idea what it is actually like to live in another country? No, they dont. They went on holiday to Benidorm last year and really liked it .... they had a smashing carefree time.

Well, when they actually get to their new found paradise, they can discover how difficult it is to deal with the administration here. The hoops they have to jump through to get things done. The barriers that are sometimes put up.

Maybe they would prefer to go to Cyprus ....... lovely sunny country and very laid back ..... until the government there decides to freeze your bank account and help themselves to a slice of it. Or the professionals there sell your new villa to two people (happened to a friend).

Lets try Goa ... a wonderful paradise. Oh ... wait .... smiling expats who moved there to live the dream cant get their homes registered in their names. Their only option is to sell to local nationals at knock down prices ... and then they struggle to get their money out of the country.

Lets try Australia. Family moves out with the promise of a good job and a smashing home. Oh ... thats strange ... when they get there suddenly the salary offered has dropped .... the hours have got longer, and for some reason people are treating them like second class citizens? 

So please ..... dont sit there and tell me what a **** hole England is. Yes, it has its own set of challenges, but when you actually get of your backside and go live in another country you will find that the old adage rings true. Same sh!t, different place.

I've loved my time in Spain. It is a nice place to live, but don't for one minute sit there and think it will be a bed of roses. It won't. So, cherish what you have and appreciate the good things in life in the UK. I can do that right now, because I am here in the UK ..... I don't see the same Britain as you do, and many of my friends don't either. They are disenchanted about some things but they are realistic, and know that in the big picture the UK is not such a bad place after all.

Good luck with your plans, but I can assure you that if you are trying to leave the UK because of hate or escapism, then you WILL eventually get a wake up call, because you will find the things that you hate elsewhere just waiting for you.


----------



## baldilocks

EX-1 said:


> Ah, found it, something jojo might want to take a look at: 48% of Brits want to get out of Britain, says new Sun survey | The Sun |Features
> 
> Anyone not convinced of what an epic failure England is now (and I really do mean epic), perhaps this will shed some light on the reality of the situation. Lucky for some eh, those that meet the minimum requirement crap I mean? And just in case there's anyone out there who still hasn't figured out why the minimum requirements _really_ exist, take a look at that link and take a wild guess.
> 
> That's *48%* and it's no misprint.
> 48% = EPIC failure, might as well say half the population.
> 
> Looks like my escape alarm is in top form then
> The ship has already sunk and it will not be recovering any time soon.


A poll run by "independent" pollsters "exclusively" for the Sun (their words) means they want a poll to show that ....

48% = 42% thinking about it + 6% actively considering it. Does NOT mean 48% want to leave! 

Q.: Have you ever thought about moving abroad? 
A.: Yes but decided it wasn't a good idea. OK so I'll put you down as thinking about it.

Opinion Polls are crap! Firstly the questions are slanted towards the answer they want. Secondly the results are massaged to give the desired result. Finally the answers are allocated to categories that suit the organisers' arguments.

Anybody remember that one a couple of years ago where it was claimed that half a million Brits were going back to UK? The correct story was: Half of those who responded to the survey, when questioned about whether they were thinking of going back to UK answered 'Yes' Dig down and you find that only 220 people were asked, of whom only 40 responded and of them only 22 said they were "thinking" about it. So it was assumed, because they were randomly selected, that these must be representative of the Brits in Spain and with over a million living here, there must be, overall, half a million who are thinking of going back to UK


----------



## ScottJaniceKyleErinFreya

EX-1 said:


> To be honest I'd rather live in Spain with a higher tax than live in this depressing, overpriced hell-hole. Spain is paradise compared to this place, for me it is anyway. I want to see the back of England for good and it can't come soon enough, believe me. I simply cannot stomach this place any longer, nor can I stomach the "Cants" that can't run it.
> 
> *Feel free to edit a character in the word "Cants" to one more befitting those resposible


EX-1, i have been in Spain for coming up for 4 months now, Spain is a paradise compared to the UK your right, certainly in some ways, But its not as cheap and as easy as you may think, but listen if you can afford and have the balls to take the plunge , then go for it.
Our life here is different than back "home" some ways better, some ways not as good, but on a whole, so far, im loving life here, come with an open mind, learn to adapt and expext the unexpected


----------



## EX-1

I was wondering last night, should I post the link or shouldn't I?

Have to say they're passionate responses, and my reply to each would be pretty much identical - so this reply is really for anyone who feels that England has _any_ credibility in the modern world whatsoever. I love England, I'm also _very_ proud to be British and have every right to be. What I don't like is what England has become due to the way it's run by the cants. When I was in my early teens, I never really understood why he did it, but my father would always take a suitable opportunity to remind me that if I wanted a life, I need to get out of England - I should always remember that.

Ok dad, I see what you mean (but of course I didn't really).

As time went on I started to see what he was talking about; and he was absolutely right, in laymans terms the amount of passion people have for England is directly related to their wealth. The rich love it here because England always was and always will be run for the benefit of the rich. The poor don't like it here because it's _always_ the poor that are left to foot the bill for gross govermental incompetence.

Take a look at energy prices, one of the major contributing factors we are paying such extortionate amounts is because the government allowed for privatisation. And let me tell you what is going to happen next (and I suggest the poor in the UK really listen to this one). What is going to happen is that the balance of burden of feeding these greedy energy companies is going to fall almost entirely on the poor.

Here's is _how_ and _what_ is going to happen.

Being poor means you neither have the ability or the funds to rig yourself up with an off-grid solar supply. The rich do of course, and what this means is that the alarming amount of solar systems you see going onto people roofs right now is another nail in the coffin for you. You see, as more and more of those that _can_ afford it decide to put two fingers up to the grid, it's inevitable the grid in turn is going to put the bills up even further to compensate for what they're losing to those that _can_ afford to flee the grid (and you won't be one of them).

You think you have it bad now, you ain't seen _nothing_ yet. Not only will you be paying even higher bills, you'll be compensating for the toffs that have fled the grid. Further than that you'll be expected to work for £70 a week because there are no jobs and the cants that can't think is acceptable to have people working for £70 per week in England in the year 2013. You will also be subjected to a whole new bunch of new bills they have planned on top of what you already pay.

Like I said, if you're poor, wave bye bye to England if you know what's good for you. And as for Spain, sure, it also has it's problems, it also has a reliable supply of free energy, and when you're poor, _that_ is going to make all the difference between you being able to afford to eat, or not. The situation with energy costs in England right now is nothing compared to what the poor have coming to them. It's going to happen because those that _can_ afford to flee the grid are _obviously_ going to do so (they already are doing). Right now, England needs wrapping round a giant pole and shoving up the arse of the cant that can't run it. That's _my_ opinion and it's the right one (coming from an _actual_ poor guy who is right in the _actual_ middle of all this crap). When you have to live on less than a tenner a week (and on top of that face the definite threat of having all benefits taken from you), come back and visit this thread and see if you have the same feelings for England then.

My opinion is the same as it was before I posted the link.

IF YOU'RE POOR, GET OUT OF ENGLAND IF YOU KNOW WHATS GOOD FOR YOU.
If you're poor and lucky enough to have already escaped the place, count yourself lucky, *VERY* lucky indeed.

Claire, I would buy a left hand drive for Spain whether or not it has Spanish plates (but getting Spanish plates would be perfect) 

ScottJaniceKyleErinFreya, thanks for the support, and that's the spirit, I was beginning to think I was odd around here, I mean how bloody ridiculous is that, eh? Wanting to travel around in a camper and keep an eye out for work. It's terrible, just terrible. But don't worry, I _will_ be doing this one way or the other, I'm entitled to and I _am_ going to 

There were some interesting things said yesterday about getting tax residency and automatic procedures so I'm hoping to get an answer on those. Once I have that I might be able to move forward at least a little. I'm not giving the cants any excuse to refuse me residency futher down the line though, so I have to do this properly. It's a pain in the arse but I'll get there eventually.


----------



## jimenato

When I was in England last I was amazed at the number of solar installations on roofs - they are everywhere - mostly on council houses it seemed to me. Some friends of mine had one on their own house and they certainly aren't rich - the equipment was heavily subsidised.

Oh, and both electricity and natural gas are more expensive in Spain than the UK so if you're looking for cheap power - better stay where you are.


----------



## EX-1

jimenato said:


> When I was in England last I was amazed at the number of solar installations on roofs - they are everywhere - mostly on council houses it seemed to me. Some friends of mine had one on their own house and they certainly aren't rich - the equipment was heavily subsidised.
> 
> Oh, and both electricity and natural gas are more expensive in Spain than the UK so if you're looking for cheap power - better stay where you are.


Can't get any cheaper than free energy, so no, I won't be staying where I am (the sun is free and plentiful in Spain, I'll take that option).
Thanks also for confirming that solar installations are going up at an alarming rate.

Every one of those installations is another nail in the coffin for those that cannot afford them.


----------



## jimenato

EX-1 said:


> Can't get any cheaper than free energy, so no, I won't be staying where I am (the sun is free and plentiful in Spain, I'll take that option).
> Thanks also for confirming that solar installations are going up at an alarming rate.
> 
> Every one of those installations is another nail in the coffin for those that cannot afford them.


As I said - they are being put on poor peoples houses and they are being subsidised by the government - there is absolutely nothing sinister about it.


----------



## Claire la richarde

The other thing, as I see it, is - where are you going to keep your savings? Unless they're going to be in cash in sacks in the camper (prob. not advisable) won't you need a bank account either in the UK or in Spain? And therefore an address to give to the bank in one country or the other?


----------



## ScottJaniceKyleErinFreya

EX-1 said:


> I was wondering last night, should I post the link or shouldn't I?
> 
> Have to say they're passionate responses, and my reply to each would be pretty much identical - so this reply is really for anyone who feels that England has _any_ credibility in the modern world whatsoever. I love England, I'm also _very_ proud to be British and have every right to be. What I don't like is what England has become due to the way it's run by the cants. When I was in my early teens, I never really understood why he did it, but my father would always take a suitable opportunity to remind me that if I wanted a life, I need to get out of England - I should always remember that.
> 
> Ok dad, I see what you mean (but of course I didn't really).
> 
> As time went on I started to see what he was talking about; and he was absolutely right, in laymans terms the amount of passion people have for England is directly related to their wealth. The rich love it here because England always was and always will be run for the benefit of the rich. The poor don't like it here because it's _always_ the poor that are left to foot the bill for gross govermental incompetence.
> 
> Take a look at energy prices, one of the major contributing factors we are paying such extortionate amounts is because the government allowed for privatisation. And let me tell you what is going to happen next (and I suggest the poor in the UK really listen to this one). What is going to happen is that the balance of burden of feeding these greedy energy companies is going to fall almost entirely on the poor.
> 
> Here's is _how_ and _what_ is going to happen.
> 
> Being poor means you neither have the ability or the funds to rig yourself up with an off-grid solar supply. The rich do of course, and what this means is that the alarming amount of solar systems you see going onto people roofs right now is another nail in the coffin for you. You see, as more and more of those that _can_ afford it decide to put two fingers up to the grid, it's inevitable the grid in turn is going to put the bills up even further to compensate for what they're losing to those that _can_ afford to flee the grid (and you won't be one of them).
> 
> You think you have it bad now, you ain't seen _nothing_ yet. Not only will you be paying even higher bills, you'll be compensating for the toffs that have fled the grid. Further than that you'll be expected to work for £70 a week because there are no jobs and the cants that can't think is acceptable to have people working for £70 per week in England in the year 2013. You will also be subjected to a whole new bunch of new bills they have planned on top of what you already pay.
> 
> Like I said, if you're poor, wave bye bye to England if you know what's good for you. And as for Spain, sure, it also has it's problems, it also has a reliable supply of free energy, and when you're poor, _that_ is going to make all the difference between you being able to afford to eat, or not. The situation with energy costs in England right now is nothing compared to what the poor have coming to them. It's going to happen because those that _can_ afford to flee the grid are _obviously_ going to do so (they already are doing). Right now, England needs wrapping round a giant pole and shoving up the arse of the cant that can't run it. That's _my_ opinion and it's the right one (coming from an _actual_ poor guy who is right in the _actual_ middle of all this crap). When you have to live on less than a tenner a week (and on top of that face the definite threat of having all benefits taken from you), come back and visit this thread and see if you have the same feelings for England then.
> 
> My opinion is the same as it was before I posted the link.
> 
> IF YOU'RE POOR, GET OUT OF ENGLAND IF YOU KNOW WHATS GOOD FOR YOU.
> If you're poor and lucky enough to have already escaped the place, count yourself lucky, *VERY* lucky indeed.
> 
> Claire, I would buy a left hand drive for Spain whether or not it has Spanish plates (but getting Spanish plates would be perfect)
> 
> ScottJaniceKyleErinFreya, thanks for the support, and that's the spirit, I was beginning to think I was odd around here, I mean how bloody ridiculous is that, eh? Wanting to travel around in a camper and keep an eye out for work. It's terrible, just terrible. But don't worry, I _will_ be doing this one way or the other, I'm entitled to and I _am_ going to
> 
> There were some interesting things said yesterday about getting tax residency and automatic procedures so I'm hoping to get an answer on those. Once I have that I might be able to move forward at least a little. I'm not giving the cants any excuse to refuse me residency futher down the line though, so I have to do this properly. It's a pain in the arse but I'll get there eventually.


EX-1 you realy need to be realistic here, Electricity is expensive in Spain,wheres the endless supply off free energy?the sun?via solar panels? you gotta buy them here too . and if you live on a tenner a week in the UK , the cost of living here isnt much if cheaper here, and are you refering to them taking all "your" benefits away? as you wont get any benefits in Spain, there are alot of wealthy people in Spain and there are alot of not so wealthy people here, but it is the world over that the rich will get richer and the poor will get poorer.
But as i said if you feel its right for you, go for it, you learn by your own mistakes and life is way to short


----------



## EX-1

jimenato said:


> As I said - they are being put on poor peoples houses and they are being subsidised by the government - there is absolutely nothing sinister about it.


Not as simple as that I'm afraid.
- You have to fight councils if you have a house.
- You're 100% screwed if you live in a flat (which is where a lot of the poor are generally shovelled into).
- The vast amount of systems they're prepared to subsidise are absolute crap anyway.

My choice is that great ball in the sky; it is forever dependable and doesn't charge.




Claire la richarde said:


> The other thing, as I see it, is - where are you going to keep your savings? Unless they're going to be in cash in sacks in the camper (prob. not advisable) won't you need a bank account either in the UK or in Spain? And therefore an address to give to the bank in one country or the other?


I intend to keep my UK bank account right up until I actually have residence in Spain


----------



## baldilocks

EX-1 said:


> I intend to keep my UK bank account right up until I actually have residence in Spain


BUT to get residence you have to have either a monthly income going into, and/or capital in, a Spanish bank account


----------



## EX-1

ScottJaniceKyleErinFreya said:


> EX-1 you realy need to be realistic here, Electricity is expensive in Spain,wheres the endless supply off free energy?the sun?via solar panels? you gotta buy them here too . and if you live on a tenner a week in the UK , the cost of living here isnt much if cheaper here, and are you refering to them taking all "your" benefits away? as you wont get any benefits in Spain, there are alot of wealthy people in Spain and there are alot of not so wealthy people here, but it is the world over that the rich will get richer and the poor will get poorer.
> But as i said if you feel its right for you, go for it, you learn by your own mistakes and life is way to short


You're missing the point, I couldn't care less if electricity in Spain cost 1000x time rate in England, I don't care because I won't be paying for my electricity - ever - the sun does not charge! I already have a system designed that can supply me with more than enough energy for my requirements - all worked out ready to fit on to a suitable sized van. I really am not in the least bit worried about energy in Spain because I will not be paying for it.

I realise that must piss off the energy companies, but hey, that makes it all the more fun - and not a thing they can do about it


----------



## EX-1

baldilocks said:


> BUT to get residence you have to have either a monthly income going into, and/or capital in, a Spanish bank account


Yes, but once I'm over there and eventually find work, I will get residence 
All I need to do is work out how to stay over there legally, long enough for me to actually find work.


----------



## Claire la richarde

EX-1 said:


> Yes, but once I'm over there and eventually find work, I will get residence
> All I need to do is work out how to stay over there legally, long enough for me to actually find work.


The only way to do that is to show the Spanish government that you can pay for the necessities of life and for any health treatment necessary, and pay to keep your vehicle on the road legally, from your own resources, until such time as you get a job.

To do that you'll need money in a Spanish bank account and private health insurance - and an address to get that account and vehicle insurance (never mind for the government).

Do you know anyone in Spain who would let you use their address? (And who wouldn't half-inch post from the bank / insurance company!)


----------



## EX-1

Claire la richarde said:


> The only way to do that is to show the Spanish government that you can pay for the necessities of life and for any health treatment necessary, and pay to keep your vehicle on the road legally, from your own resources, until such time as you get a job.
> 
> To do that you'll need money in a Spanish bank account and private health insurance - and an address to get that account and vehicle insurance (never mind for the government).
> 
> Do you know anyone in Spain who would let you use their address? (And who wouldn't half-inch post from the bank / insurance company!)


I can't meet the Spanish governments piss-taking demands to show that I can afford the necessities of life, that's why I'm going to have to leave the county every 90 days to avoid it. I also cannot meet their demands by giving them an address because I do not want an address, I want to explore Spain so I will not be forced into buying or renting property just to satisfy their piss-taking demands. The system is clearly discriminte against those that choose to live a mobile lifestlye.

To avoid the address requirement, again, I have to come here as a tourist and leave every 90 days.

Here is what I plan to do as things stand right now:

- Buy a left hand drive van with UK plates and fit it out.
- I will keep my UK bank account and use my card in Spain.
- I will buy my insurance in England for 365 day cover in Europe.
- Once a year I will get an MOT in the UK and renew my insurance at the same time.
- I will come to Spain and leave within 90 days to avoid the minimum income crap.
- I will continue to come back to Spain for 90 days per visit until I find work.
- When I find work I will meet the requirements, and after five years I will apply for residency.

Now _please_, is that doable or is there _still_ something I haven't taken into account here?

Please, everyone, I'm not interested in discussing solar power or internet access because seriously, neither of those things are a concern for me. They are two areas I really couldn't care less about because I know what I'm doing in that respect. I think the only real clarification I need now is regards the tax residency thing.

Where do I stand regards tax residency if I do what I described in this post?
Does anyone see a problem with my revised plan?


----------



## baldilocks

EX-1 said:


> I can't meet the Spanish governments piss-taking demands to show that I can afford the necessities of life, that's why I'm going to have to leave the county every 90 days to avoid it. I also cannot meet their demands by giving them an address because I do not want an address, I want to explore Spain so I will not be forced into buying or renting property just to satisfy their piss-taking demands. The system is clearly discriminte against those that choose to live a mobile lifestlye.
> 
> To avoid the address requirement, again, I have to come here as a tourist and leave every 90 days.
> 
> Here is what I plan to do as things stand right now:
> 
> - Buy a left hand drive van with UK plates and fit it out.
> - I will keep my UK bank account and use my card in Spain.
> - I will buy my insurance in England for 365 day cover in Europe.
> - Once a year I will get an MOT in the UK and renew my insurance at the same time.
> - I will come to Spain and leave within 90 days to avoid the minimum income crap.
> - I will continue to come back to Spain for 90 days per visit until I find work.
> - When I find work I will meet the requirements, and after five years I will apply for residency.
> 
> Now _please_, is that doable or is there _still_ something I haven't taken into account here?
> 
> Please, everyone, I'm not interested in discussing solar power or internet access because seriously, neither of those things are a concern for me. They are two areas I really couldn't care less about because I know what I'm doing in that respect. I think the only real clarification I need now is regards the tax residency thing.
> 
> Where do I stand regards tax residency if I do what I described in this post?
> Does anyone see a problem with my revised plan?


Only that even with hopping in and out, if you are in Spain for more than 182 days in a year, you will automatically become liable for tax in Spain on your worldwide income. The 182 days do not have to be consecutive.


----------



## EX-1

baldilocks said:


> Only that even with hopping in and out, if you are in Spain for more than 182 days in a year, you will automatically become liable for tax in Spain on your worldwide income. The 182 days do not have to be consecutive.


Cheers Baldi, and yup, I suspect the tax residency thing is the only uncertainty now. I know I will be tax liable in Spain, and that's what I want, so all I need to do now is find out for sure how that works. I thought tax residency was something I needed to apply for, but yesterday it was pointed out it would be automatic if I'm here more than 182 days.

So, let's just say I have sucessfully been in Spain for 182 days and have crossed the border to France and come back again in order to make the stay legal. What happens then? As I can legally do the trip to France again, they must have something in place for people who clock up more than 182 days. How does that work?


----------



## baldilocks

EX-1 said:


> Cheers Baldi, and yup, I suspect the tax residency thing is the only uncertainty now. I know I will be tax liable in Spain, and that's what I want, so all I need to do now is find out for sure how that works. I thought tax residency was something I needed to apply for, but yesterday it was pointed out it would be automatic if I'm here more than 182 days.
> 
> So, let's just say I have sucessfully been in Spain for 182 days and have crossed the border to France and come back again in order to make the stay legal. What happens then? As I can legally do the trip to France again, they must have something in place for people who clock up more than 182 days. How does that work?


If you go border hopping to avoid the 90 day residency rule, you can only do that twice in one calendar year (Tax year is Jan-Dec in Spain) before you become liable for tax on your *worldwide* income. You might get away with it if you came at the beginning of July, took a week's break in France/Portugal/Italy (you may be able to use Andorra, but I'm not sure, however it does have a border post which would be useful for getting your passport stamped) at the end of September then again over Christmas and New year and similar at the end of March/beginning of April which would enable you to stay until the end of June, the - that's it! Fini! You will then have to find somewhere to hole up for at least six months until after the next New Year.

Somewhere along the line, you'll have to get your vehicle MoT'd and taxed. You will also need to find a vehicle insurer that will allow that length of time on a green card, normally it is no more than three months (less with some insurers) and you will need to ensure that the g/c covers where you want to go (don't forget that Andorra is not in the EU, neither are Switzerland nor Liechtenstein).


----------



## Stravinsky

EX-1 said:


> Take a look at energy prices, one of the major contributing factors we are paying such extortionate amounts is because the government allowed for privatisation. And let me tell you what is going to happen next (and I suggest the poor in the UK really listen to this one). What is going to happen is that the balance of burden of feeding these greedy energy companies is going to fall almost entirely on the poor.
> 
> Like I said, if you're poor, wave bye bye to England if you know what's good for you. And as for Spain, sure, it also has it's problems, it also has a reliable supply of free energy, and when you're poor


*You* bought up the energy question, and therefore don't be surprised if people tell you that energy in Spain is as expensive if not more so than the UK

"If you are poor, wave good bye to the UK" ..... If you are talking about Spain then I am afraid your argument loses all credibility at that point. You clearly have no idea what being poor in Spain means. You have no benefits. You have no fall back. Being poor in Spain is desperate .... but of course you have the possibility of free energy in your home if you can possibly afford the €2500 it will cost you to install the system to provide it. Maybe you should ask the beggers outside the supermarkets how they feel about it ... hey, at least they are warm!

I dont think you are talking from any form of experience of living here .... whereas we are. I notice you didnt comment on my previous post though ... did it hit a nerve


----------



## EX-1

Baldi, sincerely I'm not interersted in trying to avoid the tax residency, I _want_ to become tax resident in Spain because it automatically means I'd no longer be tax resident in the UK. I don't understand how people keep thinking I want to avoid tax residency when I've stated time and time again that I _want_ to become tax resident in Spain!

Regards the 90 day thing, I intended only to use France, Gibraltar, and Portugal to reset it. I asked about this early on and there was no mention of only being able to renew my 90 days twice. Is that what you're saying, I can only renew my 90 days twice?


Strav, I'm just trying to keep the thread on topic, that's all. I'm aware I brought it up, but it was merely as a reply and to explain the situation. I honestly couldn't give a crap about England, it's not possible for me to care any less than I do. Same with solar panels and internet, I couldn't care less about those but for a different reason; because I don't need advice on those.

All I care about is getting out of this dump, it is finished whether people want to believe it or not. I live here in the situation I live in and know first hand what the facts are. I don't need advice on that aspect of things. I'm just trying to keep the thread on topic so that I can find out the things that _actually_ matter to me, and all that matters to me is getting out of this dump!

I'm not some toff who lives in a pretty little stone farmhouse in the Yorkshire Dales with a Jaguar in the drive and lives of masses of interest coming in from savings. Those people are welcome to England, but I live a _very_ different existance and I want to (and will) see the back of England. If I came to Spain and it doesn't work out, tough, I still tried, and even then I would still not return to England.

I can't answer the question about hitting a nerve because I honestly haven't a clue what you're talking about


----------



## ScottJaniceKyleErinFreya

EX-1 said:


> I can't meet the Spanish governments piss-taking demands to show that I can afford the necessities of life, that's why I'm going to have to leave the county every 90 days to avoid it. I also cannot meet their demands by giving them an address because I do not want an address, I want to explore Spain so I will not be forced into buying or renting property just to satisfy their piss-taking demands. The system is clearly discriminte against those that choose to live a mobile lifestlye.
> 
> To avoid the address requirement, again, I have to come here as a tourist and leave every 90 days.
> 
> Here is what I plan to do as things stand right now:
> 
> - Buy a left hand drive van with UK plates and fit it out.
> - I will keep my UK bank account and use my card in Spain.
> - I will buy my insurance in England for 365 day cover in Europe.
> - Once a year I will get an MOT in the UK and renew my insurance at the same time.
> - I will come to Spain and leave within 90 days to avoid the minimum income crap.
> - I will continue to come back to Spain for 90 days per visit until I find work.
> - When I find work I will meet the requirements, and after five years I will apply for residency.
> 
> Now _please_, is that doable or is there _still_ something I haven't taken into account here?
> 
> Please, everyone, I'm not interested in discussing solar power or internet access because seriously, neither of those things are a concern for me. They are two areas I really couldn't care less about because I know what I'm doing in that respect. I think the only real clarification I need now is regards the tax residency thing.
> 
> Where do I stand regards tax residency if I do what I described in this post?
> Does anyone see a problem with my revised plan?


EX-1 if you want to come and live in Spain, come and respect their laws, because if theres one thing that really P!**ES me off, (and if you are as passionate about your country as you make out to be ), Is the people who come into the UK and choose what laws they want to live by.
You brought up the Subject of electricity, i was just merely telling you the reality of it over here. 
I dont agree with your Dads bit of advice BTW that if you are poor leave the UK? and where exactly are you going to go? Most "poor"people in the world leave their home countries for the UK in search of a better life.
However, Good luck on your Quest


----------



## jojo

Your hatred of the UK is clouding your judgement. Like I've said before, you WILL without any doubt appreciate it if/when you go to Spain. In Spain you will see real hardship, poverty, you will see real injustice and you will see "political *in*correctness". Bureaucrats, civil servants, politicians who really dont care - laws you dont understand and beggars outside of every supermarket. And more than that, if you dont treat the laws and country with any respect (and judging by some of your comments you dont seem to at the moment), you will find out what its like to live somewhere you dont belong and that doesnt want or like you.


I was the same as you - I thought it would be great to get out of "soft touch" Britain - but the alternative is harsh and it makes the people harsh. If you live by their rules, its costly, if you dont you'll be an outcast and have to watch your back every step! But you need to try it for yourself! This is now turning into a pointless argument - all we can do is offer you advice, you choose not to take it - end of conversation!

Jo xxx


----------



## Claire la richarde

You'll need an address in the UK for the DVLA and the insurance company, and for the bank, and for your private health insurance.*

* You could try using an EHIC, I suppose, but it's cheating, and you could find yourself with big bills / a world of trouble if you have a complaint / accident that needs ongoing treatment.

Then again, you might know someone in the UK who would let you use their address.


----------



## baldilocks

EX-1 said:


> Baldi, sincerely I'm not interersted in trying to avoid the tax residency, I _want_ to become tax resident in Spain because it automatically means I'd no longer be tax resident in the UK. I don't understand how people keep thinking I want to avoid tax residency when I've stated time and time again that I _want_ to become tax resident in Spain!
> 
> Regards the 90 day thing, I intended only to use France, Gibraltar, and Portugal to reset it. I asked about this early on and there was no mention of only being able to renew my 90 days twice. Is that what you're saying, I can only renew my 90 days twice?


Sorry, I had just wondered whether you were getting confused (so many people do) about the implications and requirements of "Residency" and "Tax Residency". Usually most people try to avoid the Tax Residency bit and your insisting you want to become a tax resident was unusual.

Moving on, your plan to do casual work - do you have any special skills that might be in demand. Bear in mind, even in normal (not crisis) times there is not enough work so that many Spaniards, especially in the agricultural sector, go to countries like France, Germany, Switzerland, Italy to help with the harvests (all products not just cereals) and, in turn many come to Spain when there is work here. Three of our neighbours are away at the moment, one of them is trying to raise enough money for his son to got to study at the Royal College of Music in London. 

For example, normally loads of Moroccans come here to help with the olives but because of "the crisis" there is a surplus of local labour so they have been told not to come for the last few winters but some do and you see them on street corners wrapped in their few bits of clothing shivering, many will still be there the next morning with a layer of frost on them. They queue up outside the church when there is to be a food hand-out. Some may be lucky and find a place where somebody will take them in but most are not so lucky.


----------



## Stravinsky

EX-1 said:


> Baldi
> 
> Strav, I'm just trying to keep the thread on topic, that's all. I'm aware I brought it up, but it was merely as a reply and to explain the situation. I honestly couldn't give a crap about England, it's not possible for me to care any less than I do. Same with solar panels and internet, I couldn't care less about those but for a different reason; because I don't need advice on those.
> 
> All I care about is getting out of this dump, it is finished whether people want to believe it or not. *I live here in the situation I live in and know first hand what the facts are.* I don't need advice on that aspect of things. I'm just trying to keep the thread on topic so that I can find out the things that _actually_ matter to me, and all that matters to me is getting out of this dump!
> 
> I'm not some toff who lives in a pretty little stone farmhouse in the Yorkshire Dales with a Jaguar in the drive and lives of masses of interest coming in from savings. Those people are welcome to England, but I live a _very_ different existance and I want to (and will) see the back of England. If I came to Spain and it doesn't work out, tough, I still tried, and even then I would still not return to England.
> 
> I can't answer the question about hitting a nerve because I honestly haven't a clue what you're talking about


I appreciate your point of view, but it is all based on completely false assumptions.
If you are poor and you come to Spain poor, then you are stuffed. Well and truly stuffed. You have little chance of success unless you get an extremely luck break.

You may be experiencing the UK ... but I have to tell you so am I. I'm not relating my view of it from Spain, I'm actually in the UK.

As regards your questions, I think people are telling you, but you dont seem to be taking it in 

And please dont resort to the eye rolling, eh? I meant (and hoped) that you might be beginning to grasp the reality of the situation, but clearly you arent yet.

It is never a case of the Grass is Greener on the other side. It's just not like that, and thats what people here WITH EXPERIENCE are trying to tell you


----------



## EX-1

ScottJaniceKyleErinFreya said:


> EX-1 if you want to come and live in Spain, come and respect their laws...


From the moment I posted on this forum I have been hell-bent on making sure that what I do is legal, I cannot do more than that!

Thanks for the well wishes and for your advice, but again, please understand that I was _not_ targetting my comment at anyone inparticualr, it's just that I seem to be spending an extraordinary amount of time explaining things that really have nothing to do with what I'm trying to find out. I really am desperate here and need to get things sorted.

Bloody hell, all I want to do is come to Spain in a camper and explore and I'm going to do that whether they "The Spanish Beurocrats" like it or not. If they cannot abide by European rules and like to make it difficult by imposing rules they're not entitled to impose, you really shouldn't be surprised when fellow Europeans like myself take offence to it when it makes it difficult for them to do things they are entitled to do.

The situation is this, I _am_ coming over there, I am European and I am entitled to do so. The 90 day reset is legal and I _will _be making use of it. I will be clocking up more than 182 day per year in Spain so that means I pay any relevant taxes to Spain. If they refuse to make me tax resident, *that's their problem* because they simply will not get their taxes. I assure you their beurocratic crap will not get one over on me, either. *I intend to file for tax residency using whatever is the officially accepted way of doing so, and if they refuse me then I will have written proof that they did so.* Providing I do everything legal (and I absolutely will), there's not a damn thing they can do about it. They can _*not*_ fine me for being illegal if I do everything legal - so screw 'em!

I'm getting rather tired of being treated like a cheat when all I'm trying to do here is something *I am legally entitled to do*. If people want to point the finger, point it at the beurocratic morons that set this system up, not me. All I'm interested in is answers to my questions, and if they can't be given, ok then, please ignore the thread and I'll do this on my own. It took me two years before I gave in and joined a forum, I did it alone until then and can go back to that way of doing things just as quickly. If people can help me out with advice (which is why I'm here), thank you very much, I really _*do*_ appreciate it. But to those of you with suspicious minds who feel I'm here to be interrogated, move on and interrogate someone else.

- The 90 day thing, can I only use it twice?
- Tax residency, how would they give me that without an address?

That's all I'm interested in as of right now and would be thankful for a definitive answer to them


----------



## Stravinsky

EX-1 said:


> Bloody hell, all I want to do is come to Spain in a camper and explore and I'm going to do that whether they "The Spanish Beurocrats" like it or not. If they cannot abide by European rules and like to make it difficult by imposing rules they're not entitled to impose, you really shouldn't be surprised when fellow Europeans like myself take offence to it when it makes it difficult for them to do things they are entitled to do.
> 
> The situation is this, I _am_ coming over there, I am European and I am entitled to do so. The 90 day reset is legal and I _will _be making use of it. I will be clocking up more than 182 day per year in Spain so that means I pay any relevant taxes to Spain. If they refuse to make me tax resident, *that's their problem* because they simply will not get their taxes. I assure you their beurocratic crap will not get one over on me, either. *I intend to file for tax residency using whatever is the officially accepted way of doing so, and if they refuse me then I will have written proof that they did so.* Providing I do everything legal (and I absolutely will), there's not a damn thing they can do about it. They can _*not*_ fine me for being illegal if I do everything legal - so screw 'em!
> 
> - The 90 day thing, can I only use it twice?
> - Tax residency, how would they give me that without an address?
> 
> That's all I'm interested in as of right now and would be thankful for a definitive answer to them


The first part of this, unfortunately illustrates a big gap in your understanding of how the Spanish Authorities work. IF ... something were to happen, then the onus is on YOU to disprove things, not on them to prove them

The 90 day thing. You can try. In the unlikely event of you being picked up on it, the onus will be on YOU to prove you have not been in Spain for over 90 days

Tax residency .. not only an address, but without any identification such as NIE.

And .... if the Spanish authorities decide they are going to fine you, it will be a case of screw you, not screw them 

If they refuse to make me tax resident then thats their problem .....  Thats a classic. Good luck with that, I'm through talking to a brick wall, good luck


----------



## EX-1

jojo, there is no argument, we simply don't agree. Nothing anyone can say will make me change my opinion about England, it's what it is, it's a piss-take that some are tolerant of, while others emigrate and never look back. I'm one of those who will never look back.


Claire, yes, no problem with an address in England, I simply use my parents place and the same goes for my bank account 


Baldi, thanks for the heads up but I still don't know whether you ment that I can only reset the 90 days twice. Is there a limit of two times or can I do it indefinitely? I won't be answering questions about my skills because I don't like putting out too much stuff on the web, too much a security risk.

As for the poverty, you think it's not that bad in England?
I'm not after an answer to that one because I can tell you for sure, it is 


Strav, you got a rolling eye smiley because I felt like putting one there.
Perhaps you missed the green one that came directly after it? 

Being a moderator I would have thought there'd be a requirement for you to have some manners. You're not talking to a "brick wall" but it seems that maybe I am. If you live in a world where you think I can be done for doing something illegal when I haven't done anything illegal, you're a muppet. Understand your rights. They can't fine me for not becoming tax resident if they did not allow me to do so under circumstances in which I was legally entitled to be in the country.

The 90 day thing is legal and therefore it is not unreasonable to assume that people using motorhomes _are_ going to clock over 182 days, now is it? If I do the legal thing and they refuse me, then yes, I assure you it will be _their_ problem and not mine. I don't need "any luck with that". The lesson here is simple; know your rights and stop acting like a muppet.

Regards the poverty, I am going to be better off in Spain no matter what, it's not fantasy, it's fact. In most parts of Spain I can legally park my camper without the entire police force acting like I just did something devastatingly unspeakable. I can also get enough energy to survie without paying a penny for it seeing as the sun actually shines more than twice a year in Spain, now what I mean, energy and all? Those are at least two reasons I will be better off in Spain _even_ being poor. If it gets to the point where I can no longer afford even to keep a van, again, Spain is still a better country to be poor. I would much rather camp in a tent in Spain than in England.

You might be a moderator, but don't get cocky. You'll either realise you stepped out of line or you'll ban me for speaking my mind. Do whatever the hell you you like, all I know is I need backchat and nonsense like I need a hole in the head.


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## Megsmum

EX-1 said:


> jojo, there is no argument, we simply don't agree. Nothing anyone can say will make me change my opinion about England, it's what it is, it's a piss-take that some are tolerant of, while others emigrate and never look back. I'm one of those who will never look back.
> 
> 
> Claire, yes, no problem with an address in England, I simply use my parents place and the same goes for my bank account
> 
> 
> Baldi, thanks for the heads up but I still don't know whether you ment that I can only reset the 90 days twice. Is there a limit of two times or can I do it indefinitely? I won't be answering questions about my skills because I don't like putting out too much stuff on the web, too much a security risk.
> 
> As for the poverty, you think it's not that bad in England?
> I'm not after an answer to that one because I can tell you for sure, it is
> 
> 
> Strav, you got a rolling eye smiley because I felt like putting one there.
> Perhaps you missed the green one that came directly after it?
> 
> Being a moderator I would have thought there'd be a requirement for you to have some manners. You're not talking to a "brick wall" but it seems that maybe I am. If you live in a world where you think I can be done for doing something illegal when I haven't done anything illegal, you're a muppet. Understand your rights. They can't fine me for not becoming tax resident if they did not allow me to do so under circumstances in which I was legally entitled to be in the country.
> 
> The 90 day thing is legal and therefore it is not unreasonable to assume that people using motorhomes _are_ going to clock over 182 days, now is it? If I do the legal thing and they refuse me, then yes, I assure you it will be _their_ problem and not mine. I don't need "any luck with that". The lesson here is simple; know your rights and stop acting like a muppet.
> 
> Regards the poverty, I am going to be better off in Spain no matter what, it's not fantasy, it's fact. In most parts of Spain I can legally park my camper without the entirel police force acting like I just did some devastatingly unspeakable. I can also get enough energy to survie without paying a penny for it seeing as the sun actually shines more than twice a year in Spain, now what I mean, energy and all? Those are at least two reasons I will be better off in Spain _even_ being poor. If it gets to the point where I can no longer afford even to keep a van, again, Spain is still a better country to be poor. I would much rather camp in a tent in Spain than in England.
> 
> You might be a moderator, but don't get cocky. You'll either realise you stepped out of line or you'll ban me for speaking my mind. Do whatever the hell you you like, all I know is I need backchat and nonsense like I need a hole in the head.


I live in the UK, things are bad, but you only have to read the news to know that Spain is in a far worse state than the UK. In fact you would have to be blind not to know.

Also poverty is very subjective, and when you have been to countries where there is true poverty, where there is no heating, water and nice roads to park a camper van , this word would not be bandied around. You may well be better off in Spain, the only person who knows that is you. We are moving over at the end of the year. No we are neither rich or poor, we are probably just below the middle, we will have a small income and savings, will we be better off in Spain, no, we will be the same. If you cannot live in the UK on the income that you have, how can you live in Spain, petrol is the same sorry I have not read the whole thread, and may have missed something. I wish you luck and hope you succeed in your wishes


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## EX-1

cambio said:


> I live in the UK, things are bad, but you only have to read the news to know that Spain is in a far worse state than the UK. In fact you would have to be blind not to know.
> 
> Also poverty is very subjective, and when you have been to countries where there is true poverty, where there is no heating, water and nice roads to park a camper van , this word would not be bandied around. You may well be better off in Spain, the only person who knows that is you. We are moving over at the end of the year. No we are neither rich or poor, we are probably just below the middle, we will have a small income and savings, will we be better off in Spain, no, we will be the same. If you cannot live in the UK on the income that you have, how can you live in Spain, petrol is the same sorry I have not read the whole thread, and may have missed something. I wish you luck and hope you succeed in your wishes


Cheers, cambio, and the same to you, I hope things work out well for you 

Of course povery is subjective, and actually, I think that might be part of the problem here, people are quick to assume I have never been abroad and experienced the poverty in other countries. Fact is, I have, but I'm not interested in those countries, I'm interested in Spain. I know what poverty is and know how to gauge it. Fact is if I weren't going to be better off in Spain I would not be going there. I'm not kidding myself, I know what to expect, it's just the beurocratic crap that is holding me back.

Regards the petrol, no problem, I will be living off savings


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## baldilocks

EX-1 said:


> Baldi, thanks for the heads up but I still don't know whether you ment that I can only reset the 90 days twice. Is there a limit of two times or can I do it indefinitely? I won't be answering questions about my skills because I don't like putting out too much stuff on the web, too much a security risk.
> 
> As for the poverty, you think it's not that bad in England?
> I'm not after an answer to that one because I can tell you for sure, it is


Sorry, it was during the period where I was ensuring that you REALLY meant 'tax resident' and not Resident (the 90 day thingy) There's nothing to stop you resetting it ad infinitum until the authorities get wind of it and say you can't. You would still be well advised to go through a passport control so that your ins and outs are properly recorded in your passport as evidence.

Where the poverty problem is different in Spain is there are no safety nets such as all the Social Security benefits, etc to help out. At the start of the Civil War many people were literally starving, the rich landowners were taking land out of cultivation to avoid paying the farm labourers to till the fields. If the starving, as much as took weeds from the edges of the fields to make some sort of soup, the landowners' strong-arm men, aided and abetted by the Guardia Civil would shoot them. Poverty here, especially in the countryside, is real poverty. 

OK, I know that was 75 years ago but those things are remembered even if they aren't talked about. An illegal rightist government had taken over by means of a military coup to counter the leftists who were trying to protect and help the poor. It became a crime to be poor, a crime to look in the rich people's waste for food, a crime punishable by death.

For many, they see the same situation building up and jealously guard any work they have.


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## Stravinsky

EX-1 said:


> jojo
> Being a moderator I would have thought there'd be a requirement for you to have some manners. You're not talking to a "brick wall" but it seems that maybe I am. If you live in a world where you think I can be done for doing something illegal when I haven't done anything illegal, you're a muppet. Understand your rights. They can't fine me for not becoming tax resident if they did not allow me to do so under circumstances in which I was legally entitled to be in the country.
> 
> The 90 day thing is legal and therefore it is not unreasonable to assume that people using motorhomes _are_ going to clock over 182 days, now is it? If I do the legal thing and they refuse me, then yes, I assure you it will be _their_ problem and not mine. I don't need "any luck with that". The lesson here is simple; know your rights and stop acting like a muppet.
> 
> Regards the poverty, I am going to be better off in Spain no matter what, it's not fantasy, it's fact. In most parts of Spain I can legally park my camper without the entire police force acting like I just did something devastatingly unspeakable. I can also get enough energy to survie without paying a penny for it seeing as the sun actually shines more than twice a year in Spain, now what I mean, energy and all? Those are at least two reasons I will be better off in Spain _even_ being poor. If it gets to the point where I can no longer afford even to keep a van, again, Spain is still a better country to be poor. I would much rather camp in a tent in Spain than in England.
> 
> You might be a moderator, but don't get cocky. You'll either realise you stepped out of line or you'll ban me for speaking my mind. Do whatever the hell you you like, all I know is I need backchat and nonsense like I need a hole in the head.


OK, one more time

Ive been a moderator for 6 or 7 years.
Ive given advice to people that concurs with other regulars, and its been ignored
Ive seen the people that ignored said advice and paid the price

I'm not being rude, and I am not stepping out of line. I am giving someone the benefit of 7 years of being on this and other forums, and giving my time and help so that people have all the information they need to make informed decisions.

Oh .. yes, you can be done for things which aren't illegal, even if you dont believe it. There are different interpretations, especially by the Guardia. It happens all the time, because that's Spain. It happens. You either accept it, or you try and fight it, and if you try and fight it you invariably lose because you are the foreigner and you play by their rules. So ..... far from being a Muppet, I and others here clearly know much more of the workings of Spain than you do, and we are trying to give that knowledge to you. If you choose to walk your own path after that then as I said before, good luck. If you prefer to call me names ... well, if it makes you feel better then please go ahead


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## brocher

At first I thought you were a guy with his head screwed on, but now I see you are just a bloke with such a huge chip on your shoulder that you can no longer see sense when it it is presented to you in black and white, and in every which way round. 

In umpteen of your posts you've used one line to emphasise that you have no intention of doing anything illegal, only to follow it by another ten or twenty lines trying every angle to do things illegally, before ending up by being extremely rude and abusive. You should re-read some of your own posts before you accuse mods who are doing their best to make you see sense.

FYI Spain are quite within their rights to insist you provide proof of income, etc. There is provision within the EU regulations for them to ask this of you, and you are completely incorrect to say they are not allowed to try to prevent you travelling. You must read all the rules, not just the bits that suit you. I dare say, you'll ask where this clause is, but I can't be bothered doing your research for you, we've all wasted enough time trying to help you, only to receive a torrent of abuse and vitriole.


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## baldilocks

brocher said:


> At first I thought you were a guy with his head screwed on, but now I see you are just a bloke with such a huge chip on your shoulder that you can no longer see sense when it it is presented to you in black and white, and in every which way round.
> 
> In umpteen of your posts you've used one line to emphasise that you have no intention of doing anything illegal, only to follow it by another ten or twenty lines trying every angle to do things illegally, before ending up by being extremely rude and abusive. You should re-read some of your own posts before you accuse mods who are doing their best to make you see sense.
> 
> FYI Spain are quite within their rights to insist you provide proof of income, etc. There is provision within the EU regulations for them to ask this of you, and you are completely incorrect to say they are not allowed to try to prevent you travelling. You must read all the rules, not just the bits that suit you. I dare say, you'll ask where this clause is, but I can't be bothered doing your research for you, we've all wasted enough time trying to help you, only to receive a torrent of abuse and vitriole.


I agree. I'm outa here, I have more important things to do, like get my merienda


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## EX-1

Baldi, thanks for the heads-up, but why should I be bothered about them "getting wind of it" if there is no limit on the border crossings?

Regards the benefits in England, what benefits would those be? You mean the Employment Benefit they do everything in their power to ensure they don't have to pay you, or do you mean the NHS they are secretly privitising under eveyones noses? There _are_ no benefits in England, it's a farce, or at least what little there is left of "benefits" is not going to be around much longer. The current government is the sickest bunch of the lot. Thatcher looks like the good fairy in comparison.


Strav, I ask questions and get conflicting answers. Then I get told that talking to me is like "talking to a brick wall" just because I don't know which are the right answers and which are the wrong ones. If I got some solid answers I would get it instantly but I've had very few solid answers, and often when I question what is meant by something, the answer in never forthcoming. I'm here because I need to know these things, and conflicting answers aren't any more use to me than if I never asked.

I'm not interested in how the Civil Guardia "like to do things", all I'm interested in is what is legal and what isn't because that is the only thing that stand in a court. First rule when you're about to embark on something like this is to do it by the book, that way, they have nothing on you.


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## EX-1

I see.


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## jojo

EX-1 said:


> Regards the benefits in England, what benefits would those be? You mean the Employment Benefit they do everything in their power to ensure they don't have to pay you, or do you mean the NHS they are secretly privitising under eveyones noses? There _are_ no benefits in England, it's a farce, or at least what little there is left of "benefits" is not going to be around much longer. The current government is the sickest bunch of the lot. Thatcher looks like the good fairy in comparison.
> 
> .............
> 
> I'm not interested in how the Civil Guardia "like to do things", all I'm interested in is what is legal and what isn't because that is the only thing that stand in a court. First rule when you're about to embark on something like this is to do it by the book, that way, they have nothing on you.


Those two statements prove beyond doubt that you really dont understand either country - especially Spain........ and the NHS!! So theres no point in continuing this conversation at all!! 


Jo


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## Stravinsky

EX-1 said:


> Baldi
> Strav,* I ask questions and get conflicting answers. *Then I get told that talking to me is like "talking to a brick wall" just because I don't know which are the right answers and which are the wrong ones. If I got some solid answers I would get it instantly but I've had very few solid answers, and often when I question what is meant by something, the answer in never forthcoming. I'm here because I need to know these things, and conflicting answers aren't any more use to me than if I never asked.
> 
> *I'm not interested in how the Civil Guardia "like to do things", all I'm interested in is what is legal and what isn't because that is the only thing that stand in a court.* First rule when you're about to embark on something like this is to do it by the book, that way, they have nothing on you.


You are getting the same information, but just not hearing it correctly.

You wont get to court, and if you did it would take years. At which point you wouldnt get anywhere. But I guess, you think it will be different. It won't. We know it like it is. You know it like you'd like to think it is


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