# Any bar owners out there?



## RobertRichardson (Jan 23, 2016)

I am looking at moving to Javea this year with my family. I run businesses here in the UK which I will be keeping operational to provide my income whilst living in Spain.

I am looking to invest in businesses in Spain and am very much drawn to the idea of running a family orientated bar in the Benidorm / Alicante (tourist areas) of the Alicante Province.

I have been told by other forum members that running in a bar in Spain is a waste of time and money as its difficult and unlikely to make enough money.

Are there any members here who own a bar and can offer some advice.

I am not looking to throw £150,000k at a business broker to by something established - I am a business man / entrepreneur and will be looking to set something up from scratch.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

I dont know what its like now, but when we lived in Spain a few years ago, bars were closing everywhere - even long term bars. So as people have said on here, they're no money spinner and those who do survive work all the hours god sends and dont need to be paying back an investor - so be warned. As for starting from scratch - well I assume you'll do your homework on what that entails - its nothing like it is in the UK.

But see what others think - there is one regular poster that I know of who used to run a bar in Spain



Jo xxx


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

I am thinking of setting up a male escort agency for use by rich females of a certain age.

It will be unique in that all its hunks for hire will be ugly overweight and Irish.

I have registered the business name of " Pull a Paddy" and will be working frontline for the business in a hands on capacity. 

For £150k I can give you a 1/4 share. I may also apply to BBC Dragons Den for funding


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## RobertRichardson (Jan 23, 2016)

Whilst Pull A Paddy sounds interesting I'm afraid 'I'm out'.

Thank you for your input jojo.


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## RobertRichardson (Jan 23, 2016)

jojo said:


> I dont know what its like now, but when we lived in Spain a few years ago, bars were closing everywhere - even long term bars. So as people have said on here, they're no money spinner and those who do survive work all the hours god sends and dont need to be paying back an investor - so be warned. As for starting from scratch - well I assume you'll do your homework on what that entails - its nothing like it is in the UK.
> 
> But see what others think - there is one regular poster that I know of who used to run a bar in Spain
> 
> ...



Jojo - what area of Spain did you live in? I presume from your post you have now moved back to the UK?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

RobertRichardson said:


> Jojo - what area of Spain did you live in? I presume from your post you have now moved back to the UK?


We lived near Benalmadena. We moved back 5 years ago for several reasons. My husband got fed up with the commute, the tenants left our UK house, my daughter didnt like Spain and my son wanted to study in the UK. Unfortunately, we arrived in Spain at the start of the recession in 2008, so things were never going to be easy - especially the exchange rate, which went down to parity soon after we arrived in Spain

Jo xxx


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Jojo would you consider returning?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Rabbitcat said:


> Jojo would you consider returning?


 In a heartbeat - but too many commitments in the UK at the moment, although we are visiting friends next week in Nerja and if we ever sell our UK house, we'll buy a bolthole in Spain and gradually move there

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Rabbitcat said:


> I am thinking of setting up a male escort agency for use by rich females of a certain age.
> 
> It will be unique in that all its hunks for hire will be ugly overweight and Irish.
> 
> ...


More likelihood of that succeeding than yet another family-orientated Brit bar in Benalmadena.
I might be interested in investing.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

mrypg9 said:


> More likelihood of that succeeding than yet another family-orientated Brit bar in Benalmadena.
> I might be interested in investing.


 :faint:

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

RobertRichardson said:


> Are there any members here who own a bar and can offer some advice.
> 
> .


There are Forum members who have run bars, some successfully, others not.
I doubt that anyone currently running a bar will post much on this Forum as they won't have the time. They will be working every hour God sends, weekdays and weekends, to make a half-way decent living.
Every small bar owner, shopkeeper etc. is a businessman and entrepreneur. Some are like swans, gliding gracefully above the water, paddling like hell underneath to keep afloat.


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## RobertRichardson (Jan 23, 2016)

mrypg9 said:


> There are Forum members who have run bars, some successfully, others not.
> I doubt that anyone currently running a bar will post much on this Forum as they won't have the time. They will be working every hour God sends, weekdays and weekends, to make a half-way decent living.
> Every small bar owner, shopkeeper etc. is a businessman and entrepreneur. Some are like swans, gliding gracefully above the water, paddling like hell underneath to keep afloat.


Thanks for your input, much appreciated.


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## therese1 (Jan 28, 2016)

Robert do check out the lease costs first. Bar owners are a bit like our High street owners in that they are still expecting premium rents.
The tourist areas you have mentioned are cut-throat on pricing because of competition. Would you consider a year round venture maybe inland. If you did might be worthwhile buying premises as the owners of these have managed to tick over. They're not thriving though and the days of bars being stowed out from breakfast onwards seem to have gone.
I visited rome last year and being a creature of habit returned to a few favourite cafe bars. Beautiful and ornate in prime areas, they've been in Italian families for many generations. They've sold to Chinese entrepreneurs and I do believe that a former cast iron business providing work for four or five family members is no longer guaranteed. Anywhere. 
The biggest sign that folk are struggling is the state of their bars. They're often tired looking, cluttered, and not particularly clean. Sure signs that where they once took pride they are now finding it difficult to muster up enthusiasm.
Good luck with your plans.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Robert, I found a lot of information by googling "running a bar in Spain" - the good, the bad and the ugly. Here you go:

https://www.google.es/search?q=runn...122&ie=UTF-8#q=running+a+bar+in+spain&start=0


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## DunWorkin (Sep 2, 2010)

I know several bar owners in Benidorm. Some are successful others are struggling.

If you run it yourself you will find the hours are very long. Bars are usually open there until at least 4am. You may find a manager to run it for you but you would need to find someone you really trust.

Nearly all the bars in Benidorm provide some form of entertainment (karaoke, live acts or live sport on TV) and to be successful there you would have to do the same.

You would also need to offer something special or different to attract customers. It could be location or cheap food or happy hour etc.

Spend some time in Benidorm (at various times of the year) and you will see what I mean.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

IT is difficult to know which bars are successful unless you know the person intimately. Some bars can look busy but if the rent and other costs are high they could still lose. In all the coastal resorts there are far too many bars than punters. Have seen many open in the early hours and there are about 4 people in. 

Have known a few who claimed they are doing well and next thing they are closed.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

mrypg9 said:


> There are Forum members who have run bars, some successfully, others not.
> I doubt that anyone currently running a bar will post much on this Forum as they won't have the time. They will be working every hour God sends, weekdays and weekends, to make a half-way decent living.
> Every small bar owner, shopkeeper etc. is a businessman and entrepreneur. Some are like swans, gliding gracefully above the water, paddling like hell underneath to keep afloat.


On the other hand they could spend hours on the forum...sat behind the bar waiting for customers


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Isobella said:


> On the other hand they could spend hours on the forum...sat behind the bar waiting for customers


Yes - I used to do a fair bit of that.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

If I was a potential bar purchaser I would always be very wary of why any bar seller was selling......


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

I noticed on the link Allheart posted most bars for sale appeared to be closed. Couldn't swing a cat in most of them.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Good thinking Isobella, excellent name for a new bar- The Swinging Cat


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Isobella said:


> I noticed on the link Allheart posted most bars for sale appeared to be closed. Couldn't swing a cat in most of them.


Yeah, it doesn't look good. Here's one of the articles in that link:

_"The full extent of the country's economic crisis has affected the very heart of Spanish culture, according to the Federation of Hospitality and Catering.

According to the President of the association, Jose Maria Rubio, around 10,000 bars and restaurants closed for business in 2013 alone, averaging 27 per day.

The total number of cafe's, bars and restaurants to have [shut] down - for whatever reason - since the crisis began in 2007 has been estimated at 60,000.

Rubio lamented the fact that the local bar was no longer considered 'the place to meet', and that with unemployment increasing by around 10% over this period, many people could no longer afford simple luxuries such as the coffee mid-morning, or the caña after work.

Between the years 2008 and 2013 bar and restaurant sales have decreased by an average of 22%, leaving all but the most popular bars in affluent areas in a precarious financial position."_

From here: Spain sees closure of 27 bars per day during crisis | Tumbit News Story

One of my cousins owns a very successful restaurant here in Malaga, and just opened another restaurant. Another cousin owns another restaurant in Malaga which is barely surviving. Two extreme points of view.


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

If your going to Benidorm seek out the bar owner who's in episode 3 of 

Bargain-Loving Brits In The Sun | Channel 5

He has several successful bars there but still works 14-16 hours a day, six days a week.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

jimenato said:


> Yes - I used to do a fair bit of that.


Have the nightmares ,where you think you still own it, stopped ? :rofl:


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

gus-lopez said:


> Have the nightmares ,where you think you still own it, stopped ? :rofl:


TBH we look back at that time with mixed emotions.

We had never done anything like it before and when we went in had no real idea how to do it. We were on a good deal - low rent and only a two month get out in the contract. I did a budget on the back of a *** packet and decided we needed to turn over about 250 Euros a day to cover costs and survive.

Sometimes we took 500, sometimes we took 50. Sometime we did 30 meals, sometimes none. We sold more beer than any other bar in the village.

We were only open in the evenings (and Sunday for lunch) and the two of us ran it on our own except for Mondays and Tuesdays when another couple ran it - we were lucky to have them - hard-working and honest.

We took it on in the middle of the recession and the smoking ban came in a couple of months after we opened - yet we survived quite well. 

Eventually other factors overtook us (family deaths) and we called it a day having lived for a couple of years and neither made nor lost money.

We are still complimented on how we did it and it is missed in the village.

It was loads of fun, we are both very glad we did it and have a little pride in what we did.

And we would NEVER do it again.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Having been in Javea for a few years I have seen several bars and restaurants come and go. Whether run by British, Spanish or any other nationality, it seems that the success factors are the same. The people who make a significant investment survive whilst the guys who try doing it on a shoestring fail.

The ones that fail are those which open in tiny premises in back street locations, which they then litter with red plastic Coca Cola chairs.

The ones that survive are those which open in good locations and invest in branding, decor and furniture.

Serious ventures by people who know how to create an inviting experience do well. The people who run them are what I would call business people/entrepreneurs. Most little bars are opened by inexperienced people looking to make a living without the capital or experience needed to make a serious go of it.


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## 24carat (Jan 31, 2016)

I would guess that many people who move to spain with the dream of opening a bar do so with no experience in either business or hospitality and that is the reason that they fail and dole out advice & warnings of their failures on forums

You describe yourself as an entrepreneur and as such you have confidence in what you've already achieved in the UK. If you feel that you can run a successful bar in Spain then I'd say trust your instincts.


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## RobertRichardson (Jan 23, 2016)

I hope that my up coming trip to Javea will give me insight into what business models seem to work well - I totally agree that anyone with no prior business experience with limited funds buying into a back street bar is setting up to fail - that applies to Spain and any other country for that matter including the UK.


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## Desiato (Jun 1, 2015)

There are two Basque restaurants in Castelldefels (about 1km apart) that are full every Friday and Saturday night with a queue to get in but either side of them are half empty restaurants. Incidentally, the guy who owns one used to own the other and they are very similar in that they offer a wide selection of tapas on the bar as well as a full menu and they appear to be the only two restaurants in town who do this. Of course it will vary from town to town/region to region and are two a penny in the Basque region but if I were to open a restaurant here, that's the model I'd be following.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Horlics said:


> Having been in Javea for a few years I have seen several bars and restaurants come and go. Whether run by British, Spanish or any other nationality, it seems that the success factors are the same. The people who make a significant investment survive whilst the guys who try doing it on a shoestring fail.
> 
> The ones that fail are those which open in tiny premises in back street locations, which they then litter with red plastic Coca Cola chairs.
> 
> ...


Agree. The days have gone when they could get away with a few plastic chairs and selling microwaved slosh. Having said that I have seen really trendy swish bars on the Costa del sol fold after one season.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Horlics said:


> Having been in Javea for a few years I have seen several bars and restaurants come and go. Whether run by British, Spanish or any other nationality, it seems that the success factors are the same. The people who make a significant investment survive whilst the guys who try doing it on a shoestring fail.
> 
> The ones that fail are those which open in tiny premises in back street locations, which they then litter with red plastic Coca Cola chairs.
> 
> ...


Surely you mean red _Mahou_ chairs  

Did you know that all the bars & restaurants in the port are required to have only white, or black & white, outside furniture?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

AllHeart said:


> Yeah, it doesn't look good. Here's one of the articles in that link:
> 
> _"The full extent of the country's economic crisis has affected the very heart of Spanish culture, according to the Federation of Hospitality and Catering.
> 
> ...


If I ever post on a thread like this it's not because I have experience of running a bar, far from it. Just by reading and listening to the media and perhaps more importantly looking around at local businesses you can inform yourself.
What I see and hear in general terms is reflected in the article that AllHeart gives a link to, and this one which states that in 2015 44.582 closed and 39.596 opened, which is a lot of bars opening, but ubfortunately even more closing. It's not just the recession that's caused problems but also competition, the same thing that's happening everywhere, Starbucks and the like taking over the world.
That's not to say you can't succeed, but competition is stiff and the economy hasn't fully recovered.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

xabiachica said:


> Surely you mean red _Mahou_ chairs
> 
> Did you know that all the bars & restaurants in the port are required to have only white, or black & white, outside furniture?


Ha, yes, I should have said Mahou.

And no, I didn't know there was a rule about furniture!


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> If I ever post on a thread like this it's not because I have experience of running a bar, far from it. Just by reading and listening to the media and perhaps more importantly looking around at local businesses you can inform yourself.
> What I see and hear in general terms is reflected in the article that AllHeart gives a link to, and this one which states that in 2015 44.582 closed and 39.596 opened, which is a lot of bars opening, but ubfortunately even more closing. It's not just the recession that's caused problems but also competition, the same thing that's happening everywhere, Starbucks and the like taking over the world.
> That's not to say you can't succeed, but competition is stiff and the economy hasn't fully recovered.


You're so smart!  Of course one has to consider the ratio of opening and closing, like you've pointed out here. What I copied and pasted only spoke of the closures, but the last line that I didn't copy and paste tells the ratio like this - similar to what you wrote, i.e. more closures than openings:

_"However, even before the downturn of the economy, Spain had an estimated 350,000 cafes and bars - or 1 per 132 head of population. By 2014 the ratio had increased to 1 bar for every 155 residents."_

I'd be really interested in reading the article you quoted. Do you still have it?


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