# Professional Year Validity



## hashim2 (Jun 29, 2014)

Hello All,

My Professional Year graduation date was 19 August 2019 and I was invited to apply for 189 on 14 October 2022.

My initial thinking was that my PY was valid for 4 years from the *graduation date*, however, I have read elsewhere that the PY is valid for 4 years from the *start date*.
This would mean that it is only valid *3 years from the graduation date*.

I fear now, that if PY is only valid for 4 years from the *start date*, my 189 may be rejected as I have mistakenly over-claimed 5 points.

Does anyone have more information on PY validity and whether it is valid from start date or graduation date? Should I withdraw my 189 application?

Any assistance on this matter would be a huge help.

Thank you and kind regards,
Hashim


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## Mr. (Oct 18, 2019)

You have over claimed points and their is a very small chance that your *application will be succesful*. (provided the CO does not look at the PY certficate in detail)

Tread carefully and maybe talk to a Migration Lawyer as well.

All the best


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## RDStranger (Oct 31, 2021)

hashim2 said:


> Hello All,
> 
> My Professional Year graduation date was 19 August 2019 and I was invited to apply for 189 on 14 October 2022.
> 
> ...


What was the exact start date of your PY? and have you already lodged your 189 application?

Below is from immi website and does seem to indicate completion in the four years before you are invited.





Points table for Skilled Independent visa (subclass 189)


The table gives a detailed breakdown of how points are awarded for Skilled Independent visa (subclass 189).




immi.homeaffairs.gov.au





At the time of invitation to apply, you had completed a Professional Year. To be eligible for the award of these points your Professional Year must have been in Accounting, ICT/Computing or Engineering, and:

in your nominated occupation or a closely related occupation
completed over a period of at least 12 months
completed in Australia in the four years before you are invited to apply for a visa
provided by one of these organisations:


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## hashim2 (Jun 29, 2014)

Thank you for the responses.

Yes, it appears I have overclaimed, as I've gotten the same response from other people too.

And yes, I have lodged 189. 
I'm planning to withdraw now, though, as I do not want to get my visa refused for having over-claimed - pretty bummed out knowing I've lost around $4.5k as well


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## RDStranger (Oct 31, 2021)

hashim2 said:


> Thank you for the responses.
> 
> Yes, it appears I have overclaimed, as I've gotten the same response from other people too.
> 
> ...


Mate bit of advice - Follow logical rationale and pragmatism.

You are simply jumping the gun.

Asking again - what exact date did you commence your PY on?

Don't rely solely on advise of members on Expat, speak to a reputed Immigration Lawyer.

Reading the exact language on Immi I am still not convinced if you have over claimed


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## hashim2 (Jun 29, 2014)

RDStranger said:


> Mate bit of advice - Follow logical rationale and pragmatism.
> 
> You are simply jumping the gun.
> 
> ...


Sorry just a bit rattled.

My registration date was 21 October 2018, so looking at it now, I think, technically, I still have 7 days before the 4 year period lapses (considering I received my 189 invite on 14 October 2022)
Would you agree?

Thanks a lot for responding and for your assistance


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## RDStranger (Oct 31, 2021)

hashim2 said:


> Sorry just a bit rattled.
> 
> My registration date was 21 October 2018, so looking at it now, I think, technically, I still have 7 days before the 4 year period lapses (considering I received my 189 invite on 14 October 2022)
> Would you agree?
> ...


I am hopeless in Maths but 21st Oct 2018 till 17th Oct 2022 is not 4 years so you need to explain what exactly you are rattled about??

What am I missing here? You are so eager to just withdraw your PR application. There has got to be more to this story i have a feeling?


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## hashim2 (Jun 29, 2014)

No I meant that when you asked me to check my registration date, it was 21 October 2018. 
This would mean that I did complete my PY in the 4 years before 14 October 2022.
And in this case, I have NOT have over-claimed, so don't need to withdraw. 

I was just asking if my understanding of the time periods was correct?


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## RDStranger (Oct 31, 2021)

hashim2 said:


> No I meant that when you asked me to check my registration date, it was 21 October 2018.
> This would mean that I did complete my PY in the 4 years before 14 October 2022.
> And in this case, I have NOT have over-claimed, so don't need to withdraw.
> 
> I was just asking if my understanding of the time periods was correct?


Mate you were too lenient with the use of word 'withdraw' as if you had committed a crime. Anyways NO you have not over claimed as per the dates. Simple and basic maths. Just sit tight now


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## DanielSun (5 mo ago)

Hi guys,

I've recently gotten the nomination approval from VIC 190 and only when gathering docs to apply for visa, it comes to my attention that there have been lots of mixed arguments about the Professional Year (PYP) validity.

From reading on the DHA's website & EOI questions & Visa application, they all referred as: "has the client completed the PYP in the last 48 months", which I understood as, as long as my PYP completion date is within 48 months before ITA then I'm fine. Nevertheless, people on the internet is stating that it is only 3 years from completion date since the whole 12 month of the program needs to be included in the 4 year.








I don't buy the 3-year arguments but I'm still a little bit confused.

Does anyone have some sort of real experience about anyone who's got the visa grant on the basis of 4 year from completion date of PYP?

Thank you.


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## RDStranger (Oct 31, 2021)

4 years from the date you commenced your PY


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## DanielSun (5 mo ago)

RDStranger said:


> 4 years from the date you commenced your PY


From the picture of the DHA's guidance, can you point out to me where is the "commencement" or where it states the "12-month duration" is included in the period of 4 years before ITA? Because I could not see it. In what way the definition of "complete" means "commence" - those are the two complete opposite words: one from the start and one at the end after fulfilling the academic requirements of the program...!? And how come people are spreading the information since there is no official announcement on both DHA's guidance as well as EOI questions/ visa application whatsoever? I am very curious!?!?


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## Mr. (Oct 18, 2019)

4 years from completion. I know a few people who got 189 and 190 after 3 years of completion.







See comments under the video


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## venkatsaid869 (1 mo ago)

hashim2 said:


> Hello All, My Professional Year graduation date was 19 August 2019 and I was invited to apply for 189 on 14 October 2022. My initial thinking was that my PY was valid for 4 years from the *graduation date*, however, I have read elsewhere that the PY is valid for 4 years from the *start date*. This would mean that it is only valid *3 years from the graduation date*. I fear now, that if PY is only valid for 4 years from the *start date*, my 189 may be rejected as I have mistakenly over-claimed 5 points. Does anyone have more information on PY validity and whether it is valid from start date or graduation date? Should I withdraw my 189 application? Any assistance on this matter would be a huge help. Thank you and kind regards, Hashim





hashim2 said:


> No I meant that when you asked me to check my registration date, it was 21 October 2018. This would mean that I did complete my PY in the 4 years before 14 October 2022. And in this case, I have NOT have over-claimed, so don't need to withdraw. I was just asking if my understanding of the time periods was correct?


 Hi did you get any message from co?


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## venkatsaid869 (1 mo ago)

hi any update to your application?


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## venkatsaid869 (1 mo ago)

Regarding Py validity


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## sharansekhon57 (1 mo ago)

Hi can someone please provide me an update on PY Validity? As I got the invitation on 8 Dec 2022 but my PY graduation date is 8 Feb 2019 as per the gov site they have mentioned completion date but someone told me start date please advise should I apply for visa or not I don't wanna miss this opportunity as I got invitation at 75 (External Auditors)


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## NB (Mar 29, 2017)

sharansekhon57 said:


> Hi can someone please provide me an update on PY Validity? As I got the invitation on 8 Dec 2022 but my PY graduation date is 8 Feb 2019 as per the gov site they have mentioned completion date but someone told me start date please advise should I apply for visa or not I don't wanna miss this opportunity as I got invitation at 75 (External Auditors)


If you have any confusion, it’s best to consult a good Mara agent for clarity
There are many agents who will clarify a single points also on payment of fees
Cheers


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## RDStranger (Oct 31, 2021)

sharansekhon57 said:


> Hi can someone please provide me an update on PY Validity? As I got the invitation on 8 Dec 2022 but my PY graduation date is 8 Feb 2019 as per the gov site they have mentioned completion date but someone told me start date please advise should I apply for visa or not I don't wanna miss this opportunity as I got invitation at 75 (External Auditors)


It's 4 years from the time of course commencement. You can always take a chance as the way Australia is giving out thousands of invitations COs might be a bit lenient (purely my thinking). Consult an immigration lawyer for certainty.


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## sharansekhon57 (1 mo ago)

But where its mentioned commence. As per my understanding commence and completion are 2 diff words i check all sites but i couldn’t find commence word or start.


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## ChM786 (1 mo ago)

Hi
Only NSW has explicitly used the word COMMENCED on its website. So ATM its only NSW's requirement and by the looks of it its accepting a 3 year valid PY. Skillselect is still asking that whether the applicant has COMPLETED a PY in last 48 months. So the confusion is because of NSW requirement. I will get an answer from my sponsoring state on Monday and will keep u people posted.


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## ChM786 (1 mo ago)

Yes COMMENCED and COMPLETED are 2 different words. Migration regulation 6D.see below


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## ChM786 (1 mo ago)

Now if u look on immi site, they have explained the concept of period in the second bullet point. Look closely at the third bullet point.


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## sharansekhon57 (1 mo ago)

so what should i do proceed or leave it?


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## ChM786 (1 mo ago)

If u were invited for 189 then go for it. If u were invited to apply for NSW 190 OR 491 then plz dont. Migration regulation 1994 schedule 6D6 is clear that PY is VALID FOR 4 YEARS FROM COMPLETION DATE. Read the migration regulation posted above again. It says COMPLETED 12 MONTH PY COURSE IN 48 MONTHS.


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## ChM786 (1 mo ago)

Its state of NSW which is causing all the confusion. Its their requirement which is in conflict with the Migration Regulation.


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## ChM786 (1 mo ago)

Look, this is the cause of confusion in my humble opinion


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## ChM786 (1 mo ago)

I am posting migration regulation 1994 schedule 6D6. It clearly states COMPLETED, thus making PY valid for 4 years after GRADUATION.


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## sharansekhon57 (1 mo ago)

Yeah i got 189 i don’t wanna loose this opportunity thats my only concern


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## ChM786 (1 mo ago)

Its this great state of NSW which is causing all the confusion. It demands a 3 year old PY from Graduation date. I am posting pic below. U can visit nsw website as well. Use keyeords claiming PY points if u cannot find the page


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## RDStranger (Oct 31, 2021)

ChM786 said:


> I am posting migration regulation 1994 schedule 6D6. It clearly states COMPLETED, thus making PY valid for 4 years after GRADUATION.
> View attachment 102770


I read this as 12 months within 4 years i.e. for a period totalling 12 months within the 48 months


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## RDStranger (Oct 31, 2021)

sharansekhon57 said:


> Yeah i got 189 i don’t wanna loose this opportunity thats my only concern


Don't proceed simply on the basis of one's opinion. Consult a immigration lawyer now and that is the only thing which will give you certainty


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## ChM786 (1 mo ago)

RDStranger said:


> I read this as 12 months within 4 years i.e. for a period totalling 12 months within the 48 months


Yes sir u can read whatever pleases u and develop your own understanding however its DOES NOT SAY WITHIN 48 over there. Does it?
Skillselect also asks have u completed PY in last 48 months. 
Immi website briefly describes the concept of 12 month period. I am attaching screenshot as well. Plz pay attention to bullet 2 and 3


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## ChM786 (1 mo ago)

It doesn't say WITHIN the four years here either according to your understanding.


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## RDStranger (Oct 31, 2021)

ChM786 said:


> Yes sir u can read whatever pleases u and develop your own understanding however its DOES NOT SAY WITHIN 48 over there. Does it?
> Skillselect also asks have u completed PY in last 48 months.
> Immi website briefly describes the concept of 12 month period. I am attaching screenshot as well. Plz pay attention to bullet 2 and 3
> View attachment 102773


Sure good luck


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## ChM786 (1 mo ago)

Thanks.


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## DanielSun (5 mo ago)

RDStranger said:


> I read this as 12 months within 4 years i.e. for a period totalling 12 months within the 48 months


I think the "in the period of 48 months before ITA" indicates the position in time of action "complete", not the position of the period 12-months.


Q: When did you complete the PYP?
A: I completed the PYP in the 48 months before ITA.
Q: How long did you complete the PYP for?
A: For a period of 12 months.


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## ChM786 (1 mo ago)

DanielSun said:


> I think the "in the period of 48 months before ITA" indicates the position in time of action "complete", not the position of the period 12-months.
> 
> 
> Q: When did you complete the PYP?
> ...


My sentiments exactly. The "in 48 months" is your time frame to COMPLETE the action. I have mailed my sponsoring state. Hopefully I will get an official reply on Monday which I will be posting here.


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## DanielSun (5 mo ago)

ChM786 said:


> Its this great state of NSW which is causing all the confusion. It demands a 3 year old PY from Graduation date. I am posting pic below. U can visit nsw website as well. Use keyeords claiming PY points if u cannot find the page
> View attachment 102771


I've only known about this. That is indeed very weird. I don't remember reading that point about PY on their 190 page, has NSW just updated their page recently?

So is this just the State's requirement or is this applied for DHA too? Because I personally know for the fact that there have been many cases who got visa grants on the basis of 4 years from completion (at the time of ITA, their PY was around 3.5 years from completion).


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## ChM786 (1 mo ago)

DanielSun said:


> I've only known about this. That is indeed very weird. I don't remember reading that point about PY on their 190 page, has NSW just updated their page recently?
> 
> So is this just the State's requirement or is this applied for DHA too? Because I personally know for the fact that there have been many cases who got visa grants on the basis of 4 years from completion (at the time of ITA, their PY was around 3.5 years from completion).


I have already shared the screenshot of NSW. Yes looks like its only NSW causing confusion and the mess. Their policy clashes with the Migration Regulation 1994 governing the award of PY points.


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## DanielSun (5 mo ago)

ChM786 said:


> My sentiments exactly. The "in 48 months" is your time frame to COMPLETE the action. I have mailed my sponsoring state. Hopefully I will get an official reply on Monday which I will be posting here.


Well, my PY was completed on 01.04.2019 and I claimed the points for it in my EOI. I then got nominated by VIC, and applied the nomination application including passport, PTE, and skills assessment (which has the information of my PYP completion). VIC has recently approved my application. It doesn't make sense if VIC approved PY but NSW doesn't, though the section 6D should apply to every states?


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## ChM786 (1 mo ago)

DanielSun said:


> Well, my PY was completed on 01.04.2019 and I claimed the points for it in my EOI. I then got nominated by VIC, and applied the nomination application including passport, PTE, and skills assessment (which has the information of my PYP completion). VIC has recently approved my application. It doesn't make sense if VIC approved PY but NSW doesn't, though the section 6D should apply to every states?


NSW is governed by liberal who dont think through their head. The bureaucrats in the departments have similar mindset. They do things as such. I also gave all my info including PYP to Tasmania and got approved.


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## ChM786 (1 mo ago)

I contacted State Growth Tasmania on Friday. They asked for my application number which was supplied immediately. I will get a reply on monday. Lets see.


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## sharansekhon57 (1 mo ago)

Sure definetly but if you get any update please tell us


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## DanielSun (5 mo ago)

ChM786 said:


> NSW is governed by liberal who dont think through their head. The bureaucrats in the departments have similar mindset. They do things as such. I also gave all my info including PYP to Tasmania and got approved.


Yeah I heard so many tales about NSW, that they set out the high scores eligibility and then chose to invite people with lower scores than eligibility they set out and so on. I guess that state is a bit funny.

I'm actually freaking out now that I found out about NSW. I've already applied my visa to DHA in November and waiting for the decision, if what NSW said is true then I'm doomed.


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## ChM786 (1 mo ago)

DanielSun said:


> Yeah I heard so many tales about NSW, that they set out the high scores eligibility and then chose to invite people with lower scores than eligibility they set out and so on. I guess that state is a bit funny.
> 
> I'm actually freaking out now that I found out about NSW. I've already applied my visa to DHA in November and waiting for the decision, if what NSW said is true then I'm doomed.


Have faith. Its not nsw. I created another eoi last night. Skillselect says the same old thing. Have u COMPLETED PY in last 48 months. Like u said many people have got grants after 3.5 years. Stay strong. I will inform u on Monday once i get the response from state Growth tasmania.


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## DanielSun (5 mo ago)

ChM786 said:


> Have faith. Its not nsw. I created another eoi last night. Skillselect says the same old thing. Have u COMPLETED PY in last 48 months. Like u said many people have got grants after 3.5 years. Stay strong. I will inform u on Monday once i get the response from state Growth tasmania.


I've just talked to a person (interacted via Facebook). She proved to me her case, that her PY was completed on 27.04.2018; she then got an invitation to apply for 491 on 07.03.2022; and ultimately got granted the visa on 29.08.2022. She even showed to me her PY certificate and that she claimed 5 points of PY on her application. NSW itself approved her.

She also told me, in the past when reading the NSW 491 page, it didn't have the PY sentence. It means that only recently NSW edited their page and added in that sentence about PY validity. Though the law has never changed.

There seems to be a lot of inconsistency from NSW 😐.

Also thank you for letting me know the response from Tas soon.


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## ChM786 (1 mo ago)

DanielSun said:


> I've just talked to a person (interacted via Facebook). She proved to me her case, that her PY was completed on 27.04.2018; she then got an invitation to apply for 491 on 07.03.2022; and ultimately got granted the visa on 29.08.2022. She even showed to me her PY certificate and that she claimed 5 points of PY on her application. NSW itself approved her.
> 
> She also told me, in the past when reading the NSW 491 page, it didn't have the PY sentence. It means that only recently NSW edited their page and added in that sentence about PY validity. Though the law has never changed.
> 
> ...


Really. Is that true? R u sure


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## DanielSun (5 mo ago)

ChM786 said:


> Really. Is that true? R u sure


Yeah her case is 100% true. Her PY certificate was 3 years and 10 months old (from graduation date), or 4 years and 8 months old (from commencement date), at the time she got an invitation from NSW. Her case is contradicting to whatever NSW putting on their page about PY now.

I seriously have no idea what is going on.


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## ChM786 (1 mo ago)

Hmmmm
Lets sit tight.


ChM786 said:


> Really. Is that true? R u sure


Worst fears are realized here. 
I called my institution where I got my PY. 
They said 4 years start from start date.
Now we r left at the mercy of DHA. The state has cleared us.


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## DanielSun (5 mo ago)

ChM786 said:


> Hmmmm
> Lets sit tight.
> 
> Worst fears are realized here.
> ...


Yeah still the institution is not DHA right. I mean Performance Education last year they said: 4 years from completion; but this year they said: 4 years from commencement. They are also contradicting their own advice. I feel like there's been some inconsistent communication between DHA + states and the agents/ institution.


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## NB (Mar 29, 2017)

DanielSun said:


> I've just talked to a person (interacted via Facebook). She proved to me her case, that her PY was completed on 27.04.2018; she then got an invitation to apply for 491 on 07.03.2022; and ultimately got granted the visa on 29.08.2022. She even showed to me her PY certificate and that she claimed 5 points of PY on her application. NSW itself approved her.
> 
> She also told me, in the past when reading the NSW 491 page, it didn't have the PY sentence. It means that only recently NSW edited their page and added in that sentence about PY validity. Though the law has never changed.
> 
> ...


The states don’t go into the merits of the points claimed very deeply
It’s the DHA which will go through your application with a fine tooth comb when you apply
You should not rely on states websites to check the eligibility of your points claims
It’s should be DHA and DHA only
Cheers


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## DanielSun (5 mo ago)

But anyway. I guess, for me, there's no need to find out since I've already lodged my visa. I'll just leave my fate to DHA.


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## ChM786 (1 mo ago)

DanielSun said:


> Yeah still the institution is not DHA right. I mean Performance Education last year they said: 4 years from completion; but this year they said: 4 years from commencement. They are also contradicting their own advice. I feel like there's been some inconsistent communication between DHA + states and the agents/ institution.
> 
> 
> NB said:
> ...


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## DanielSun (5 mo ago)

NB said:


> The states don’t go into the merits of the points claimed very deeply
> It’s the DHA which will go through your application with a fine tooth comb when you apply
> You should not rely on states websites to check the eligibility of your points claims
> It’s should be DHA and DHA only
> Cheers


I agree with you. I think I will just simply ignore NSW and other different opinions, and I will just follow with DHA and EOI questions.

Thank you.


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## zhoubi020438 (1 mo ago)

So how is your conversation going with TAS...


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## DanielSun (5 mo ago)

Just an update on what I know about this. Over the weekend, I have seen at least 4 other cases stating they have successfully got PR and claiming PY points on the basis of 4 years from completion date.

Case 1: VIC 190 - applicant completed PYP in December 2018. Invitation was issued in March 2022 and got the grant in April 2022.

Case 2: 491 - applicant completed PYP on 03.07.2017. Visa lodged on 12.01.2021 and got the grant later.

Case 3: 190 - applicant completed PYP in March 2017. Lodged visa in Jan 2021 and got the grant later.

And several other cases where they stated they have got the visa grant when their PYP certificate validity was >3 years from completion date; ofcourse, along with the case I have mentioned in this thread.

As of now, I only see nomination rejection on the basis of 4 years from completion from NSW. No visa application rejection from DHA on this basis, only successful cases.

Now, the people who support NSW's point of view, that 5 points are eligible when the commencement date is within 4 years, they said something like this: because DHA has recently hired new staffs, and the new staffs are not well-trained, so they made mistakes and granted the applicants with "expired PY certificate"/ the assessors from DHA just overlooked the certificate's date. etc.

My 2 cents against their arguments: DHA does make mistakes from time to time - proven by law cases that were won over by the applicant where DHA refused the visa applicant (have a look on AusClassic for these cases). Nevertheless, with the amount of cases successfully got PR that I have known, this is clearly NOT A MISTAKE. This is definitely DHA's point of view on the eligibility of PYP, that as long as your completion date is within 4 years before ITA = eligible for 5 points. Also, these grants are not only happening recently; as you can see from the above, the grants on the basis of 4 years from completion happened even way back to 2021 - when Covid was at large and no visa application can be processed.

One person had a session with Karl - founder of Australian Immigration Law Services - apparently a very successful migration agent with history of law cases - and said that Karl believed that 5 points of PYP can be claimed as long as the completion date is within the 4 years before ITA. Nowhere in the regulation and DHA's guidance states the points must be claimed from commencement date. And even if DHA refused the applicant, it can be quite easily fought to get approval.

I mean, this is just logical thinking right? The validity is the validity of a certificate. If there is no certificate, how can we have the validity??? When we first started the course, there is no certificate, how can we have validity!? It is PY certificate validity, not PY program validity.

I guess we kinda just do what makes sense to us. Follow logics, not rumors.


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## Pra544 (29 d ago)

hashim2 said:


> Hello All,
> 
> My Professional Year graduation date was 19 August 2019 and I was invited to apply for 189 on 14 October 2022.
> 
> ...


Did you apply for 189? I am in the same situation.


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## Seeker_22 (27 d ago)

Hi Everyone,

I'm on a similar boat as others here. Got invited for 189on 8th December. PY commenced in September 2018, but finished on 31st December 2019 (There was a delay in finishing due to personal reasons). Now my completion date is within 3 years validity but commencement is more than 4 years.

After reading some comments here, I feel assured that DHA's requirement clearly states "completed" not "commenced". Hopefully everyone should be fine.

However, does anyone here know if the PY is considered invalid by the case officer, then my points will drop from 95 to 90, and the lowest invite was at 85 for accountants. Will my EOI still be considered valid?

I found some old posts online in relation to "inadvertent error". Anyone knows of a similar recent case?


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## NB (Mar 29, 2017)

Seeker_22 said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> I'm on a similar boat as others here. Got invited for 189on 8th December. PY commenced in September 2018, but finished on 31st December 2019 (There was a delay in finishing due to personal reasons). Now my completion date is within 3 years validity but commencement is more than 4 years.
> 
> ...


If your points drop, your application is rejected. It’s as simple as that 
There is no question of comparing your points with what others were invited at
So you have to make sure that your points stay where they are 
Cheers


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## Seeker_22 (27 d ago)

NB said:


> If your points drop, your application is rejected. It’s as simple as that
> There is no question of comparing your points with what others were invited at
> So you have to make sure that your points stay where they are
> Cheers


I mentioned something called "inadvertent error". DHA considers applicants who have overclaimed their points due to accident or without intention of giving false information. This is only considered when after correction of the error, the applicant's points would still be high enough that he/she would have been invited in this round based on the lowest points score. However, it is not guaranteed. 

Source: From an immigration attorney's website


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## NB (Mar 29, 2017)

Seeker_22 said:


> I mentioned something called "inadvertent error". DHA considers applicants who have overclaimed their points due to accident or without intention of giving false information. This is only considered when after correction of the error, the applicant's points would still be high enough that he/she would have been invited in this round based on the lowest points score. However, it is not guaranteed.
> 
> Source: From an immigration attorney's website
> View attachment 102825


I don’t know the source of the information with the immigration agency
It may be a good idea for you to engage them as your immigration agency in case you don’t have one presently 
If it’s true, it’s open season for applicants to claim higher points
I have not come across any case wherein the applicant got his grant despite being ineligible for the points he had claimed
Cheers


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## 12Stha12 (24 d ago)

Ok, that NSW state requirement was updated after I got my Nomination refused by my case officer on 9th December, 2022. I had the same argument with her telling that the EOI clearly states that if the PY is completed within last 48 months. And emphasized her on the COMPLETED part because it doesn't say if we have commenced the course within that period. And why would anyone be so confusing, if they would want the validity to be 3 years, they could have asked if the PY was completed within 3 years instead of 4. After hearing my argument, case officer told me that they have strict instructions from home affairs about the PY criteria and the following reason was given on the phone and later in my refusal email;

The decision is based on the following reason(s)

your Professional Year Certificate expired. The Department of Home Affairs advised us that the PY must have been completed, in its entirety - that is from day one of the course to the last day of the course, within the past 48 months. If you require further information about this, please contact the Department of Home Affairs directly.

The NSW requirement was updated later same day with that commencement part.

I actually have got 189 invite as well, so I asked the case officer if I should lodge that, the response was still negative as she told me not to waste any money or time as that has a high chance of getting rejected but to apply a new EOI and wait for another invitation as I have 4.5 year skill experience assessed.

Some of the agents are asking to go for 189 and this can easily be granted and even if not AAT will be positive, but I am not too sure what to do. BTW my 4 years of PY is to be completed on 12/01/2023- from the completion date.


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## DanielSun (5 mo ago)

12Stha12 said:


> Ok, that NSW state requirement was updated after I got my Nomination refused by my case officer on 9th December, 2022. I had the same argument with her telling that the EOI clearly states that if the PY is completed within last 48 months. And emphasized her on the COMPLETED part because it doesn't say if we have commenced the course within that period. And why would anyone be so confusing, if they would want the validity to be 3 years, they could have asked if the PY was completed within 3 years instead of 4. After hearing my argument, case officer told me that they have strict instructions from home affairs about the PY criteria and the following reason was given on the phone and later in my refusal email;
> 
> The decision is based on the following reason(s)
> 
> ...


Well, I mean, it is NSW... They have been the one who changed things drastically. How did they approve the cases I mentioned in the past but now refusing similar cases, while the law regarding this matter has never changed since secction 6D? And also from the text NSW quoted above, I still belive the adverbials of time "within the 48 months" modify the action "completed" of the clause as it answers the question "when". I don't know how did NSW read the text to make a decision like that 🤷‍♂️.

I'm no agent or an experienced person as I'm still waiting for my VIC 190 visa decision from DHA, but if I were you, I would just follow logics - and logics in this case is: 48 months from completion date. Ofcourse, you should consult and gain more insights from others too before making a decision.


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## DanielSun (5 mo ago)

Moreover, over the last week, I have seen at least 3 people confirmed to me that, they have called DHA directly recently, and DHA confirmed that: the validity of PYP certificate is 4 years from completion date.

I mean 🤷‍♂️...


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## 12Stha12 (24 d ago)

DanielSun said:


> Moreover, over the last week, I have seen at least 3 people confirmed to me that, they have called DHA directly recently, and DHA confirmed that: the validity of PYP certificate is 4 years from completion date.
> 
> I mean 🤷‍♂️...


I have called and got the same response, however the persons we speak to on the phone are just for general queries and not the actual migration/case officers, that is what i was told by my agent. At the end of the day, the actual right to grant the visa sits with home affairs. 
Can you tell me if the PY and PTE documents points are locked once we get the 189 invite or is it after we lodge the application? My PTE-8 is also expiring on 20th of Jan and 12th Jan for PYP. I want to wait till the last day of expiry of current invite to see if I get any further invites without the PYP.


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## DanielSun (5 mo ago)

12Stha12 said:


> I have called and got the same response, however the persons we speak to on the phone are just for general queries and not the actual migration/case officers, that is what i was told by my agent. At the end of the day, the actual right to grant the visa sits with home affairs.
> Can you tell me if the PY and PTE documents points are locked once we get the 189 invite or is it after we lodge the application? My PTE-8 is also expiring on 20th of Jan and 12th Jan for PYP. I want to wait till the last day of expiry of current invite to see if I get any further invites without the PYP.


Well, I see your agent's point of view. But, even though the people who answered to our queries are "just" the general queries officers, they are still experienced (given the fact that this particular question surely has been raised heaps) and got the clear and direct knowledge from the assessors, to answer our queries correctly. I used to work at a pretty huge company in Australia, and back then the company also has 2 departments: one is to answer the queries on the phone and one who is assessing clients' applications; and pretty much every week, the two departments have a meeting to catch up with each other. So, I'm quite sure that the knowledge that the "phone people" possess reflect the correct knowledge from the "assessors", and the operating procedures should work in the similar ways to avoid conflicts. Just follow logics and real cases proven I believe.

For your question, I'm sure that whatever the points on EOI you've claimed will be locked at the time of invitation to apply for a visa. Basically, just take the date you got the invitation to work out your expiration of the documents. Yeah, and waiting to hear more insights is a good idea, you have 60 days anyways.


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## DanielSun (5 mo ago)

NB said:


> I don’t know the source of the information with the immigration agency
> It may be a good idea for you to engage them as your immigration agency in case you don’t have one presently
> If it’s true, it’s open season for applicants to claim higher points
> I have not come across any case wherein the applicant got his grant despite being ineligible for the points he had claimed
> Cheers


Upvote for this. To assess and give out the grants is a careful and strict process, and mistakes are at the minimum. I'm pretty sure with the number of grants given out to the people who claimed points for PYP on the basis of 4 years after completion date is not a mistake, but the correct requirement from DHA.


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## Mr. (Oct 18, 2019)

I personally know somebody who got invited in April 2022 for 190 as Auditor at 100+5. 

His PY was under 4 years from completion but more than 3 years from completion.

He got his grant no questions asked Oct-22

and Karl Konrad who runs AILS also has said a copule of times that PY is valid for 4 years from completion.


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## DanielSun (5 mo ago)

Mr. said:


> I personally know somebody who got invited in April 2022 for 190 as Auditor at 100+5.
> 
> His PY was under 4 years from completion but more than 3 years from completion.
> 
> ...


There you go! Another proven case. Thanks for the info.

To be honest, even if DHA refused us on this basis, we could just counter them for issuing "misleading policy" . If they count the validity of the "certificate" from the date we studied it, might as well just change the validity of PTE/ IELTS's score reports counting from the date we started to study for the tests.

I've just had a curious look around other policy and found this piece regarding the Australian Study Requirement (ASR). The language they posted for ASR looks exactly the same for PYP 💁‍♂️:


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## Whomayun (Dec 24, 2015)

Hola Amigos. I have been following this discussion from start. First time posting tho.
Exchanged emails with a well reputed Migration agent in Perth. The screenshots of important messages from him are attached here. Had discussion with another Indian well reputed and experienced migration agent. He said if your PY is >3 then get hold of a good Migration lawyer as there are "loop holes". His younger brother (also a MARA) told my friend over the phone that this would be a piece of cake for them at the tribunal.
Called DHA twice and got the same answer which we like to hear ie 4 years validity fro Completion.
Perth Agent refused to give me DHA mail sent to him. That got me a bit worried as 2 other agents said on social media that they got mail from DHA regarding this. Finally found this guy Mr. Mukesh Goyal who "shared" the email from "policy department" on tiktok.


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## Whomayun (Dec 24, 2015)

Mr Mukesh Goyal's email and tiktok are interesting. I am posting a screenshot of that here. just pay attention to the wordings from DHA. if this email is legit then its completely different from what the immi website and Schedule 6D tells us. Obviously if these were the wordings put on immi site then none of us would have claimed PY points but the point is IT IS NOT. This is MISLEADING. Uber Australia was fined around 22 million just because they were found misleading the customers. Now I am sure if this goes to the tribunal a person can win it, I mean the chances look very good but it will the pain that we have to suffer from the wait. I have a telephone appointment with Mr. Karl Konrad on 12th. Shoot me any questions that u want me to ask him. Good luck every one.


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## DanielSun (5 mo ago)

Whomayun said:


> Mr Mukesh Goyal's email and tiktok are interesting. I am posting a screenshot of that here. just pay attention to the wordings from DHA. if this email is legit then its completely different from what the immi website and Schedule 6D tells us. Obviously if these were the wordings put on immi site then none of us would have claimed PY points but the point is IT IS NOT. This is MISLEADING. Uber Australia was fined around 22 million just because they were found misleading the customers. Now I am sure if this goes to the tribunal a person can win it, I mean the chances look very good but it will the pain that we have to suffer from the wait. I have a telephone appointment with Mr. Karl Konrad on 12th. Shoot me any questions that u want me to ask him. Good luck every one.
> View attachment 102879


Thank you for the information Whomayun.

Well, I have spent quite a bit of time researching about this conflicting information for sometimes. The different opinions about PYP’s validity go way back to 2020, even 2019, only up until now it is a major concern due to several years of Covid that led to some documents of numerous applicants went/ are about to go expired. Please allow me to present to you what I understand from this topic – this is going to be long, so I’m sorry for the long post.

Let’s categorise the opinions into two groups:

Group A: people who are supporting the interpretation of PYP certificate’s validity as “4 years from completion”

Group B: people who are supporting the interpretation of PYP certificate’s validity as “4 years from commencement”

We have known that PYP certificate’s validity is from Schedule 6D of the Migration Law, Part 6D6, Item 6D61, which is:

“At the time of invitation to apply for the visa, the applicant had completed a professional year in Australia in: (a) the applicant's nominated skilled occupation; or (b) a closely related skilled occupation; for a period totalling at least 12 months in the 48 months immediately before that time.”

In the past, group B understood the item 6D61 as: “…12 months in the 48 months immediately before that time.” => 12 months is included in the 48 months before ITA => therefore, the 48 months validity is started to count from the commencement date of the PYP. However, back then, group B had no concrete evidence to prove that their understanding is correct. Very few migration agents at that time supported group B – they either went with group A, or they were silent with this matter. Only recently, when lots of applicants have the similar concern, someone emailed “DHA Skilled Migration Program Management” and got the response exactly like the email screenshot from your source (Mr. Mukesh Goyal’s), the migration agents, who used to be with group A, or used to be silent, updated their website/ facebook posts/ advice to their clients, that their opinion is “4 years from commencement” and that the DHA has confirmed officially to them.

*Point number 1:* looking at the whole picture, migration agents were confused, just like the applicants. They changed their opinions drastically after one email screenshot. I doubt that they have the direct contact to the DHA and the only way to contact DHA is through DHA’s hotlines/ forms, which is available to everyone. They basically used what they interpreted from the email screenshot to apply to the meaning of the DHA’s policy on the official website. When we go to the court, do we use the contents of an email screenshot as our evidence, or the contents of DHA’s official policy on their website?

*Point number 2: *now, let’s look at the contents of the email screenshot. Grammatically, we should read the first sentence of the email like this (pay attention to my “dash”): “In order to be awarded 5 points for completing a professional year, you must have started/ and completed the course within the 48 months prior to being invited.”


Started: a verb
Completed: a verb (opposite meaning to the verb “started”)
The course: a noun
Within the 48 months prior to being invited: adverbial phrase (answer the question “when”)
An adverb or adverbial phrase usually modifies one verb in a sentence. Nevertheless, it is arguably that the adverbial phrase in this sentence modifies either one of the verbs, or both: started and completed (1).

But, let’s jump to the very last sentence of the email: “A professional year that was completed more than 48 months ago would not meet this requirement for awarding of points.”


Completed: a verb
More than 48 months ago: an adverbial phrase
In this sentence, we understood the sentence simply like this: if we completed the PYP less than 48 months ago, we would meet the requirement for awarding of points. It is clear that the same adverbial phrase only modifies the verb “completed”, not “started” (2).

From (2) => (1): adverbial phrase “within the 48 months prior to being invited” modifies the verb “completed” only, not “started” and not both.

A reasonable person would understand the meaning of the verb “started” and “completed” as their normal meanings; the two verbs are not the same and have completely opposite in meanings. The court would definitely judge the matter with their normal meaning, and as with the point of view of an ordinary/ reasonable audience, not someone who is an expert in immigration law.

*Point number 3: *let’s breakdown the schedule 6D item 6D61 based on the group B’s opinion (please pay attention to my “dash”):

“At the time of invitation to apply for the visa, the applicant/ had completed/ a professional year/ in Australia/ for a period totalling at least 12 months/ in the 48 months immediately before that time.”


(a) Completed: a verb
(b) A professional year: a noun
(c) In Australia: arguably an adverb of place
(d) For a period totalling at least 12 months: an adjunct, and a prepositional phrase (PP) - arguably an adverbial phrase of time
(e) In the 48 months immediately before that time: an adjunct, and a prepositional phrase (PP) – arguably another adverbial phrase of time
Group B focused on “…12 months in the 48 months immediately before that time.” and interpreted that, a period of 12 months is included in the 48 months before ITA. We have to understand that, a PP can modify the object of another PP if and only if, that PP is an adjectival phrase (acting as an adjective) and not an adverbial phrase. Based on group B’s opinion, PP (e) is an adjectival phrase and modifying the object of its preceding PP (d) which is “12 months”. Now, it raises the question: is PP (e) an adjectival phrase or an adverbial phrase? Reflecting this to the language used on DHA’s official website, it states:

“…your professional year must have been in Accounting, ICT/ Computing or Engineering, and:


(1) in your nominated occupation or a closely related occupation
(2) completed over a period of at least 12 months
(3) completed in Australia in the 4 years before you are invited to apply for a visa
(4) provided by one of these organisations: the ACS, the CPA etc.”
Now, clearly, from this language, especially bullet point (2) and (3), PP (e) is not an adjectival phrase, but an adverbial phrase modifying the verb “completed” because:


The object “12 months” are separated from the “in the 4 years before ITA”. If they are modifying each other, they need to come together in a sentence. DHA clearly differentiated them apart.
“In the 4 years before ITA” is not either prepositive adjectives (adjective + noun – eg. *Happy* kids), or postpositive adjectives (noun + adjective/ copula + adjective – eg. The only room *available*/ He is *happy*), or normalised adjectives (adjectives functioning as nouns) (source: Adjective - Wikipedia).
“In the 4 years before ITA” answers the question: “when”, whereas an adjectival PP answers the question “which one”/ “what kind”.




Now, if in the case DHA refused my application on the basis of “4 years from completion date”, I would definitely use the above 3 points as my main ideas to counter their decision. Clearly, if they refused, they were misleading the audience in their language. Their policy on the official website needs to be consistent with the law they based off on. As long as we follow exactly with whatever they request (officially), nothing would go wrong, even in the court room. The judges, and law cases, are following logic and going with whatever makes sense.



Whomayun, I am aware that Karl is in favour of group A, so, when you have the consulting session with Karl, please ask him what he thinks about this matter, and what would be his main points to counter DHA’s decision, if in the case an application is refused on the basis of “4 years from completion date”. Thank you.


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## 12Stha12 (24 d ago)

DanielSun said:


> Thank you for the information Whomayun. Well, I have spent quite a bit of time researching about this conflicting information for sometimes. The different opinions about PYP’s validity go way back to 2020, even 2019, only up until now it is a major concern due to several years of Covid that led to some documents of numerous applicants went/ are about to go expired. Please allow me to present to you what I understand from this topic – this is going to be long, so I’m sorry for the long post. Let’s categorise the opinions into two groups: Group A: people who are supporting the interpretation of PYP certificate’s validity as “4 years from completion” Group B: people who are supporting the interpretation of PYP certificate’s validity as “4 years from commencement” We have known that PYP certificate’s validity is from Schedule 6D of the Migration Law, Part 6D6, Item 6D61, which is: “At the time of invitation to apply for the visa, the applicant had completed a professional year in Australia in: (a) the applicant's nominated skilled occupation; or (b) a closely related skilled occupation; for a period totalling at least 12 months in the 48 months immediately before that time.” In the past, group B understood the item 6D61 as: “…12 months in the 48 months immediately before that time.” => 12 months is included in the 48 months before ITA => therefore, the 48 months validity is started to count from the commencement date of the PYP. However, back then, group B had no concrete evidence to prove that their understanding is correct. Very few migration agents at that time supported group B – they either went with group A, or they were silent with this matter. Only recently, when lots of applicants have the similar concern, someone emailed “DHA Skilled Migration Program Management” and got the response exactly like the email screenshot from your source (Mr. Mukesh Goyal’s), the migration agents, who used to be with group A, or used to be silent, updated their website/ facebook posts/ advice to their clients, that their opinion is “4 years from commencement” and that the DHA has confirmed officially to them. *Point number 1:* looking at the whole picture, migration agents were confused, just like the applicants. They changed their opinions drastically after one email screenshot. I doubt that they have the direct contact to the DHA and the only way to contact DHA is through DHA’s hotlines/ forms, which is available to everyone. They basically used what they interpreted from the email screenshot to apply to the meaning of the DHA’s policy on the official website. When we go to the court, do we use the contents of an email screenshot as our evidence, or the contents of DHA’s official policy on their website? *Point number 2: *now, let’s look at the contents of the email screenshot. Grammatically, we should read the first sentence of the email like this (pay attention to my “dash”): “In order to be awarded 5 points for completing a professional year, you must have started/ and completed the course within the 48 months prior to being invited.”
> Started: a verb
> Completed: a verb (opposite meaning to the verb “started”)
> The course: a noun
> ...


 Hi Daniel, just a quick question if you have lodged a visa with which condition? Let us know what outcome you receive. I am hoping one more NSW 190 before 20th of January because my pte is also expiring. If not, ill have to go with 189 invite that i have. Just stressed about the thought of worst case scenarios if its rejected by any chance but i am willing to take it if nothing comes to my plate.


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## Whomayun (Dec 24, 2015)

DanielSun said:


> Thank you for the information Whomayun.
> 
> Well, I have spent quite a bit of time researching about this conflicting information for sometimes. The different opinions about PYP’s validity go way back to 2020, even 2019, only up until now it is a major concern due to several years of Covid that led to some documents of numerous applicants went/ are about to go expired. Please allow me to present to you what I understand from this topic – this is going to be long, so I’m sorry for the long post.
> 
> ...


hi there
I appreciate your effort. I have read it all. First off, my sincere apologies. It is Mr Mayukh Sharma MARN 1791535 of FourSquare Migration NOT Mr Mukesh Goyal. On the topic of fighting DHA at AAT, in my humble opinion it will be easy even for an average migration lawyer to win it because all the info presented in dox such as Migration legislation, Migration Acts and the Immi website info doesnt support the argument of including 12 months in the 48 months. They cannot prove it. I am confident because I presented myself in court in Sydney.
I was caught driving while listening to Instrumental Music on Youtube. They law said
1 your phone has to be mounted, U cannot see movies, have video chat or use social media
2 u can listen to music. (and that was it)
I went to court and explained these rules infront of Judge. I humbly said Your Honour The rule says u can listen to music but it doesnt specify if the music has to be locally stored in your phone or u can use social media to listen to it. The judge smiled. The cop had the body cam video but it was too blurry. They never had enough evidence to prosecute me. Long story short, the prosecutor tried grilling me and after 2 hours of hearing I was found NOT GUILTY and I walked away. I am confident that they cannot prove it from the existing legislation that 12 months are to be included in 48 months. I fear the wait and its pain.
You are so right about group A and B.


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## Whomayun (Dec 24, 2015)

Greetings
A New Year's Gift from me to all of u. 
Especially the MARN Agents belonging to Group B
Gift to all Indian and Pakistani Agents of Group B 
Group B = people advocating 3 year validity from completion
Plz remember people Humayun found and posted this first.


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## 12Stha12 (24 d ago)

Whomayun said:


> Greetings
> A New Year's Gift from me to all of u.
> Especially the MARN Agents belonging to Group B
> Gift to all Indian and Pakistani Agents of Group B
> ...


Hi Whomayun, can you clarify what does this really mean? And if you are proving that the PY in whole should have been completed within that 48 month period or if you are claiming that just the completion of the course should be within 48 months?


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## Whomayun (Dec 24, 2015)

12Stha12 said:


> Hi Whomayun, can you clarify what does this really mean? And if you are proving that the PY in whole should have been completed within that 48 month period or if you are claiming that just the completion of the course should be within 48 months?


This is what people at AAT think not me. I am not trying to prove anything, its already a proven fact. People in the past and present have got approvals with PY over 3 years old. 
This is evident from AAT's document that u have to complete PY COMPRISING a total of 12 months in the 48 months....they never mention commence. Most importantly they have NOT USED the word WITHIN. LOL
What do u think it is?


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## 12Stha12 (24 d ago)

Below is my refusal for NSW 190, i feel like its worth taking the risk because they clearly are on wrong side of their own rule. I am waiting out to see if there is one more nsw 190 round before 20th of Jan, because that is when my pte is expiring. Otherwise i am going for it.

Btw my py is expiring on 12 jan from completion date. But hopefully that will be valid at the time of invitation.


The decision is based on the following reason(s)

your Professional Year Certificate expired. The Department of Home Affairs advised us that the PY must have been completed, in its entirety - that is from day one of the course to the last day of the course, within the past 48 months. If you require further information about this, please contact the Department of Home Affairs directly.


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## Whomayun (Dec 24, 2015)

12Stha12 said:


> Below is my refusal for NSW 190, i feel like its worth taking the risk because they clearly are on wrong side of their own rule. I am waiting out to see if there is one more nsw 190 round before 20th of Jan, because that is when my pte is expiring. Otherwise i am going for it.
> 
> Btw my py is expiring on 12 jan from completion date. But hopefully that will be valid at the time of invitation.
> 
> ...


They have lost their mind at NSW govt. I called DHA twice the lady clearly said if u had COMPLETED a 12 month course IN the 48 months prior to Invitation then u r Welcome to claim points. I have the telephone recording as well. 
If u can challenge this then go for it. All the evidence is there. I wish u all the best.


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## DanielSun (5 mo ago)

12Stha12 said:


> Hi Daniel, just a quick question if you have lodged a visa with which condition? Let us know what outcome you receive. I am hoping one more NSW 190 before 20th of January because my pte is also expiring. If not, ill have to go with 189 invite that i have. Just stressed about the thought of worst case scenarios if its rejected by any chance but i am willing to take it if nothing comes to my plate.


My timelines are currently:

EOI: 11.08.2022
Pre-invitation (from Vic): 26.10.2022
Nomination approval (from Vic): 27.10.2022
Visa app logement: 11.11.2022
Medicals finalisation: 16.11.2022

Impatiently waiting for the outcome from DHA at the moment. And ofcourse, I will let all of us know whenever I have any update about my case.


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## Whomayun (Dec 24, 2015)

DanielSun said:


> My timelines are currently:
> 
> EOI: 11.08.2022
> Pre-invitation (from Vic): 26.10.2022
> ...


Hey Dan
Have u seen my post ?


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## DanielSun (5 mo ago)

Whomayun said:


> Hey Dan
> Have u seen my post ?


I have. I actually am aware of that publication from AAT for a while, and I agree, it's pretty clear by the language they used.

"...5 points are awarded if the applicant had completed a "professional year" in Australia/ comprising a total of 12 months/ in the 48 months immediately before ITA."

They used a relative clause here to provide more information about the course, I'm re-writing it as per the below:

- The applicant had completed a "professional year" in Australia, which comprises a total of 12 months, in the 48 months immediately before ITA.

OR

- In the 48 months immediately before ITA, the applicant had completed a "professional year" in Australia, which comprises a total of 12 months.

The adverbial phrase "in the 48 months before ITA" can freely move to other positions of the sentence without changing the meaning of the clause.


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## Whomayun (Dec 24, 2015)

12Stha12 said:


> Ok, that NSW state requirement was updated after I got my Nomination refused by my case officer on 9th December, 2022. I had the same argument with her telling that the EOI clearly states that if the PY is completed within last 48 months. And emphasized her on the COMPLETED part because it doesn't say if we have commenced the course within that period. And why would anyone be so confusing, if they would want the validity to be 3 years, they could have asked if the PY was completed within 3 years instead of 4. After hearing my argument, case officer told me that they have strict instructions from home affairs about the PY criteria and the following reason was given on the phone and later in my refusal email;
> 
> The decision is based on the following reason(s)
> 
> ...


Called immigration today. They have no clue about this. Those guys are reading from the website. They wont give u any email so u can escalate this matter. Useless, simply useless.


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## DanielSun (5 mo ago)

Whomayun said:


> Called immigration today. They have no clue about this. Those guys are reading from the website. They wont give u any email so u can escalate this matter. Useless, simply useless.


You called DHA about NSW's requirement regarding PYP? And DHA said they don't know about NSW's statement on NSW's website?


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## Whomayun (Dec 24, 2015)

DanielSun said:


> You called DHA about NSW's requirement regarding PYP? And DHA said they don't know about NSW's statement on NSW's website?


No. this time this guy Mark was too useless to ask any question.


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## DanielSun (5 mo ago)

Whomayun said:


> No. this time this guy Mark was too useless to ask any question.


I still have no idea what was happening...?


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## Whomayun (Dec 24, 2015)

DanielSun said:


> I still have no idea what was happening...?


we should start a watsapp group. I have no problem sharing my phone number, not in here but we can exchange emails and then go on from there. I think the immigration has started working on new policy which is those 12 months of PY have to be in the 48 months.


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## Whomayun (Dec 24, 2015)

DanielSun said:


> I still have no idea what was happening...?


I called the local MP in NSW where I used to live. The guy that I talked to manages the MP's emails. He was super cooperative and asked me to send an email detailing every thing. I have just done that. wrote an email attached all proofs of legislation etc.Just finished sending it, lets see what happens. Heard from a MARN agent. I am posting his response below after he saw the AAT commentary on professional year.
email:
All to do with the work “completed”
I was surprised Home Affairs has taken such a narrow view
But not surprised as other parts of the migration process such as skills assessment validity and English results max out at 3 years

A PY going 4 years as an intention would seem odd
But home affairs have left themselves open to challenge given the loose wording of “completed”

email ends.


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## Fight for justice (11 d ago)

Whomayun said:


> I called the local MP in NSW where I used to live. The guy that I talked to manages the MP's emails. He was super cooperative and asked me to send an email detailing every thing. I have just done that. wrote an email attached all proofs of legislation etc.Just finished sending it, lets see what happens. Heard from a MARN agent. I am posting his response below after he saw the AAT commentary on professional year.
> email:
> All to do with the work “completed”
> I was surprised Home Affairs has taken such a narrow view
> ...


Hello everyone, 

Thanks to each of us for our time, effort and struggle that we are going through. I am in the same situation like you all are. I spoke to Karl Konrad (Australian Immigration Law services) already regarding this PY validity, he clearly said, it is valid for 4 years from completion date. He even opened the migration regulation act and policy 6D which barely said it is valid for 4 years from the start date or 3 years from the completion date. So, he is going to talk about this in his next you-tube video, so you can wait and watch it. Hoping it to come out this week. Also, he said we can fight if visa is refused, but this will cost our time and money for sure. So, let's see what happens.

And point to be noted, if they are going to update their policy now after giving invitations to around 35,000 people who already claimed points, it would be of no use. Hope you guys can understand. And happy to start a group and communicate further. 

Thanks,
Another fighter


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## Whomayun (Dec 24, 2015)

Fight for justice said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> Thanks to each of us for our time, effort and struggle that we are going through. I am in the same situation like you all are. I spoke to Karl Konrad (Australian Immigration Law services) already regarding this PY validity, he clearly said, it is valid for 4 years from completion date. He even opened the migration regulation act and policy 6D which barely said it is valid for 4 years from the start date or 3 years from the completion date. So, he is going to talk about this in his next you-tube video, so you can wait and watch it. Hoping it to come out this week. Also, he said we can fight if visa is refused, but this will cost our time and money for sure. So, let's see what happens.
> 
> ...


Yes. True.
The only thing is TIME. This will cause a lot of pain. I am talking with a well reputed migration agent and he says immigration has no chance at AAT.
After doing all the readings myself trust me there is no point in favor of immi but it will cost us time. 
May God have His mercy upon us all. 
All the best. 
We r in this together


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## Fight for justice (11 d ago)

Fight for justice said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> Thanks to each of us for our time, effort and struggle that we are going through. I am in the same situation like you all are. I spoke to Karl Konrad (Australian Immigration Law services) already regarding this PY validity, he clearly said, it is valid for 4 years from completion date. He even opened the migration regulation act and policy 6D which barely said it is valid for 4 years from the start date or 3 years from the completion date. So, he is going to talk about this in his next you-tube video, so you can wait and watch it. Hoping it to come out this week. Also, he said we can fight if visa is refused, but this will cost our time and money for sure. So, let's see what happens.
> 
> ...


Another point to add, I spoke to DHA as well 5 times with 5 different people:
1) Deepali confirmed, if the course is completed within the last 48 months, then we are good to claim 5 points. (source: information on the home affairs website)
2) Lee confirmed the same as Deepali said, but when I asked him to check migration regulation act, he was confused, and I asked him that the information in 3 different sources is conflicting. He has gone with the info on home affairs website.
3) Megan confirmed that the information on home affairs website would be always correct, updated and clear. Policies and other acts might not be updated, so she said if the course is completed withing 48 months, good to claim points.
4) Karl the last person I spoke said the same, as the above three.
5) was useless, can't open websites, so didn't remember name.

I don't have call recordings by mistake. I didn't get that thought to record.

I clearly think, all these guys as normal beings read and understood the same as we did. I don't know why MARA agents are just going blindly without any question or doubt. However, let's wait if some one higher is going to give better clarity on this officially, but in a good and favourable way.


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## Whomayun (Dec 24, 2015)

I am only worried about the emails which so far 3 MARN agents claim to have received from DHA.
I know one of them, he doesn't lie. The other 2 can fabricate stuff. Lastly our colleague here who got refused NSW 190 based on his 3 plus year old PY. 
It seems the department has sent the emails. The operators at helpline are simply not aware of these happenings.
Also the wording of my agent match with the reason of refusal mentioned in the NSW 190 case.


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## 12Stha12 (24 d ago)

I spoke to my company's migration lawyer today. He emailed me the below response:

The validity period of skills assessments, English tests, PY and NAATI interpreter / translator tests is causing a lot of issues for the many people who submitted EOIs a few years ago and surprisingly have now finally received invitations.



Re: Validity Period of PY

I have reviewed the legislation and policy guidelines on the validity period of the PY.



The question in the Skill Select EOI applications is slightly different to the legislation, and the EOI clearly specifies four years.



However, the legislation is poorly written and could be interpreted as imposing a validity period of three years.



Unfortunately, the policy which aims to explain to case officers how to interpret the legislation, does not mention the validity period of the PY.



I have reviewed a forum for migration lawyers and agents where there has been mixed views on the validity period. The more senior and respected migration lawyers who are accredited specialists indicate that it is a three year period of validity.

Re: Adding Points for Work

Fortunately, regardless of the mixed interpretation of the PY validity, the legislation clearly allows an applicant to include an additional five points for Australian work experience.

Thanks

I have another loophole where i can claim 5 points for my experience but i dont have skill assessment from ACS for the same but i can prove it with my company's document and i am on 482 in the same occupation. As 189 doesnt specify that acs skills assessment is mandatory, i might take this route instead of PY. But it will all depend on if the migration lawyer thinks that this is the best way to go. 

Just hoping for the best for all of us and hopefully they soon bring out policy to make our PY valid for atleast 4 years from completion date so that we can all get some relief.


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## Whomayun (Dec 24, 2015)

12Stha12 said:


> I spoke to my company's migration lawyer today. He emailed me the below response:
> 
> The validity period of skills assessments, English tests, PY and NAATI interpreter / translator tests is causing a lot of issues for the many people who submitted EOIs a few years ago and surprisingly have now finally received invitations.
> 
> ...


Yup
There are always these "more experienced" lawyers and people in a tricky situation. People until recently have got visa grants with 3 plus year of PY. I am sure department will realize their "mistake". They have to give a cut off date at least if they are going to implement something new.


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## Whomayun (Dec 24, 2015)

12Stha12 said:


> I spoke to my company's migration lawyer today. He emailed me the below response:
> 
> The validity period of skills assessments, English tests, PY and NAATI interpreter / translator tests is causing a lot of issues for the many people who submitted EOIs a few years ago and surprisingly have now finally received invitations.
> 
> ...


Migration Act 1992 (Schedule 6D6)
Immi Website Page for PY
AAT Commentary on PY
Legend for Schedule 6D Skill Visa explanation 
EOI Question 
Past Record of Visa Grants
My question is very simple...Show me a single document which points to the fact that PY is valid for 3 years and I mean just slightly. Please show me a hint please. These immi people will get fried at AAT.


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## 12Stha12 (24 d ago)

Whomayun said:


> Migration Act 1992 (Schedule 6D6) Immi Website Page for PY AAT Commentary on PY Legend for Schedule 6D Skill Visa explanation EOI Question Past Record of Visa Grants My question is very simple...Show me a single document which points to the fact that PY is valid for 3 years and I mean just slightly. Please show me a hint please. These immi people will get fried at AAT.


 Yeah seems this is a grey area and the legislation is not clear so people are assuming and interpreting the rules as they understand it, and i think its the same for the case officers too. However, with the situation that we are on, i only have one question- Are we willing to take risk and apply, and if the outcome is negative by any chance, probably a bit of more time and money too?


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## Whomayun (Dec 24, 2015)

12Stha12 said:


> Yeah seems this is a grey area and the legislation is not clear so people are assuming and interpreting the rules as they understand it, and i think its the same for the case officers too. However, with the situation that we are on, i only have one question- Are we willing to take risk and apply, and if the outcome is negative by any chance, probably a bit of more time and money too?


Chance at AAT?
Have u read the AAT Commentary that I have posted in this thread?


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## 12Stha12 (24 d ago)

Whomayun said:


> Chance at AAT?
> Have u read the AAT Commentary that I have posted in this thread?


I did. But ultimately the grant of visas rely solely on the case officer and home affairs and I am just thinking about the worst case scenario. 
I am on the same page as you and believe that PY is valid for 4 years from completion date.


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## 12Stha12 (24 d ago)

Another thing that I dont understand is how people are taking professional year as some PTE or NAATI course. I mean we pay around $12 k for professional year and it lasts for 1 year(and can only do once), whereas PTE and Naati, people get results after few weeks of studying. Now even Naati has validity for 5 years. So how come PY is only valid for 3 (as per experienced agents and lawyers)? There is just no logic.


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## Whomayun (Dec 24, 2015)

12Stha12 said:


> I did. But ultimately the grant of visas rely solely on the case officer and home affairs and I am just thinking about the worst case scenario.
> I am on the same page as you and believe that PY is valid for 4 years from completion date.


My email exchange with
Mr. Steven O'Neil (MARN 9687267)


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## Fight for justice (11 d ago)

12Stha12 said:


> Another thing that I dont understand is how people are taking professional year as some PTE or NAATI course. I mean we pay around $12 k for professional year and it lasts for 1 year(and can only do once), whereas PTE and Naati, people get results after few weeks of studying. Now even Naati has validity for 5 years. So how come PY is only valid for 3 (as per experienced agents and lawyers)? There is just no logic.



That's exactly true, PTE is something we prepare for and get the results. Some may take a week where others struggle for years to get the result. Skill assessment, we pay for and we get the renewed document in few weeks. Same with NAATI, few weeks of effort. But PY is not something we can just pay for and get the certificate. It is the matter of time and points we lose. All this happened as the immigration did not give invitations at the appropriate time and they closed all our doors for almost 3 years and now when they are ready, we have this PY struggle which is not renewable or extended. I am definitely on a positive side, hoping for the positive outcome, because everyone knows the situation and they should understand as a common being. Hope immigration thinks just as us if they think from our perspective.

Good luck to all those who already lodged their visas.


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## Fight for justice (11 d ago)

Fight for justice said:


> That's exactly true, PTE is something we prepare for and get the results. Some may take a week where others struggle for years to get the result. Skill assessment, we pay for and we get the renewed document in few weeks. Same with NAATI, few weeks of effort. But PY is not something we can just pay for and get the certificate. It is the matter of time and points we lose. All this happened as the immigration did not give invitations at the appropriate time and they closed all our doors for almost 3 years and now when they are ready, we have this PY struggle which is not renewable or extended. I am definitely on a positive side, hoping for the positive outcome, because everyone knows the situation and they should understand as a common being. Hope immigration thinks just as us if they think from our perspective.
> 
> Good luck to all those who already lodged their visas.



I took my PTE in 2019, got 8 each, but expired in 2022, retook the test and got 8 each in 3rd attempt, lucky enough that I got the score. But I am not happy that I could not do anything with this PY.


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## Whomayun (Dec 24, 2015)

Fight for justice said:


> I took my PTE in 2019, got 8 each, but expired in 2022, retook the test and got 8 each in 3rd attempt, lucky enough that I got the score. But I am not happy that I could not do anything with this PY.


I sincerely suggest u go for it if your PY Certificate was less than 4 years old at the time of invitation from the completion date.


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## Fight for justice (11 d ago)

Whomayun said:


> I sincerely suggest u go for it if your PY Certificate was less than 4 years old at the time of invitation from the completion date.


07/04/2019 is my PY graduation date and got invited for 189 on 08/12/2022. So still under 4 years from completion date. Will try my luck for sure. Hopefully will lodge this weekend or next week. Thanks guys for all your support.


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## DanielSun (5 mo ago)

Fight for justice said:


> That's exactly true, PTE is something we prepare for and get the results. Some may take a week where others struggle for years to get the result. Skill assessment, we pay for and we get the renewed document in few weeks. Same with NAATI, few weeks of effort. But PY is not something we can just pay for and get the certificate. It is the matter of time and points we lose. All this happened as the immigration did not give invitations at the appropriate time and they closed all our doors for almost 3 years and now when they are ready, we have this PY struggle which is not renewable or extended. I am definitely on a positive side, hoping for the positive outcome, because everyone knows the situation and they should understand as a common being. Hope immigration thinks just as us if they think from our perspective.
> 
> Good luck to all those who already lodged their visas.


Oh yeah for sure. They can't compare PTE/ Naati/ Skills Assessment with PYP. 

PTE/ Naati are the tests, we undertook it in a day, and when we finished the test, that was when the validity was started to calculate. Same for Skills Assessment, it is an assessment application: when we submitted the application, we had to gather documents (preparation), and only when the application was finished assessing, the validity of skills assessment would start to ticking.

Whereas PYP is a course, it took a year (not a day) to finish. And during the year of the program, a lot of things can happen such as taking days off (from both teachers/ institution and students), delaying in grading, failing the subject(s), personal issues, being unable to find suitable internship placements etc. It is a culmulative of study activities, not one examination activity. There was even a court case on AusClassic, stating that even if PYP is not CRISCO registered, but it is entitled to have an 8 weeks of break and treated like a normal CRISCO course. 

The only similarity between these is the time when they started to count the validity: is when the documents are finished.

PTE/ Naati/ Skills assessment: all of these have the validity when they are finished! (You get out of the exam room (finished the test) -> validity started to tick).
And it would be the same for PYP, there is no reason it should be different.

So yeah, the two things between PTE/ Naati/ Skills Assessment and PYP are entirely different, you can't group them together. The agent above who compared their validity together sounds wrong to me. This is the logic that the court would definitely consider favourably.

Also a question: does anyone know when DHA will resume to process visa applications. I'm anxiously waiting for mine and it doesn't seem like they've been working since yesterday (the 3rd of Jan)?


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## Whomayun (Dec 24, 2015)

Fight for justice said:


> 07/04/2019 is my PY graduation date and got invited for 189 on 08/12/2022. So still under 4 years from completion date. Will try my luck for sure. Hopefully will lodge this weekend or next week. Thanks guys for all your support.


I sincerely wish u all the best. Secondly, u will get the outcome within 3-4 months since 189 is on priority processing. Plz do lets us know about the outcome of your application in this thread. Thanks and all the best.


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## 12Stha12 (24 d ago)

I am heading to one of the reputed Migration agent/lawyers consultation later today, will let you guys know what they think.
Does anyone of you know when NSW treasury opens up after holidays? I am waiting for one more 190 round to happen before Jan 20, keeping my hopes up to get one more invitation before my PTE expires


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## Whomayun (Dec 24, 2015)

12Stha12 said:


> I am heading to one of the reputed Migration agent/lawyers consultation later today, will let you guys know what they think.
> Does anyone of you know when NSW treasury opens up after holidays? I am waiting for one more 190 round to happen before Jan 20, keeping my hopes up to get one more invitation before my PTE expires


Hi
Ask them if they had communicated with DHA via email about the 4 year validity issue. Let them know a few agents r claiming to have received mail from dha where department has told them its 3 years and their case officers were making a mistake. Thanks


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## 12Stha12 (24 d ago)

One agent which i know personally has confirmed that he has got the email from dha mentioning its 3 years from the completion date, that is why i went for nsw nomination, as per his suggestion, which ultimately got refused for the same reason. He called me few days later asking to take a risk because he applied for 189 for someone with similar situation and got the grant.
But yes that why i am going for consultation today to see if there is any hope on my eoi to get sure shot positive outcome. Will let everyone know what they say today.


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## Whomayun (Dec 24, 2015)

12Stha12 said:


> One agent which i know personally has confirmed that he has got the email from dha mentioning its 3 years from the completion date, that is why i went for nsw nomination, as per his suggestion, which ultimately got refused for the same reason. He called me few days later asking to take a risk because he applied for 189 for someone with similar situation and got the grant.
> But yes that why i am going for consultation today to see if there is any hope on my eoi to get sure shot positive outcome. Will let everyone know what they say today.


Alright
Can u recall the date on which he contacted u again for 189 news. Thanks


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## 12Stha12 (24 d ago)

Whomayun said:


> Alright
> Can u recall the date on which he contacted u again for 189 news. Thanks


I think it should be around 11-12 December, 2022.


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## Whomayun (Dec 24, 2015)

12Stha12 said:


> I think it should be around 11-12 December, 2022.


Yup I thought so. Those are the dates I got email from my agent saying DHA has realized their mistake and they will be sending the advice out to all case officers not to repeat it again. On call with DHA right now. Will update u guys shortly


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## Whomayun (Dec 24, 2015)

Okay.
The call with DHA was 25 minutes long. The lady was very nice. Did everything to help me. 
End Result. They dont have updated information. Whats available to them is the info on the website.
She suggested I can uploaded a cover letter with my submitted application to show my displeasure, grief, panicking etc AND I should wait. If the department needs something from me then they will contact me. 
Looks like after 8 years of struggle I am doomed for AAT (or the new body which replaces it).
Good luck All.


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## 12Stha12 (24 d ago)

TBH the DHA line is just a waste of time, they can only tell you what they see on the website. I don't understand if they never do any stand ups or any meetings to cover up whats happening on the job. If they would, they would probably get some information regarding this and update the websites accordingly or atleast give out some useful information.


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## 12Stha12 (24 d ago)

Whomayun said:


> I called the local MP in NSW where I used to live. The guy that I talked to manages the MP's emails. He was super cooperative and asked me to send an email detailing every thing. I have just done that. wrote an email attached all proofs of legislation etc.Just finished sending it, lets see what happens. Heard from a MARN agent. I am posting his response below after he saw the AAT commentary on professional year.
> email:
> All to do with the work “completed”
> I was surprised Home Affairs has taken such a narrow view
> ...


Any response from your local MP? I have sent one out to my Local MP this morning, let see what they have to say.


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## Whomayun (Dec 24, 2015)

12Stha12 said:


> Any response from your local MP? I have sent one out to my Local MP this morning, let see what they have to say.


Yes.
Fiest I talked to the guy who manages the email of that MP. He was really nice. After the phone conversation I shoot this lengthy email with all proofs. His reply came yesterday stating he has forwarded my mail to Andrew Giles office and advised me to contact him again in a couple of weeks if I dont get a response.


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## 12Stha12 (24 d ago)

So i have just come back and I don't have good news regarding PY validity. that agent showed me some legislation that is only accessible to mara agents, as per him. And there it is written that professional year commencement and end date, as a whole, needs to be within that 48 months. he claimed to know about this back in 2019. And he said that some of his clients who wished to apply for visa regardless of this PY validity also got approved and it totally depends on how case officer interprets the law, and sometimes even make mistakes as new migration officer don't have much experience these days. Government is just planning to give process visas quickly and selecting many officers who don't know what they are even doing or have studied any immigration laws properly. 

As per this consultation, I can only say that it totally depends on us as applicants and if we want to take risk, later taking immi to AAT is also all our choice and we might have chance at winning it but ultimately applicants are the ones to take the risk.


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## Whomayun (Dec 24, 2015)

12Stha12 said:


> So i have just come back and I don't have good news regarding PY validity. that agent showed me some legislation that is only accessible to mara agents, as per him. And there it is written that professional year commencement and end date, as a whole, needs to be within that 48 months. he claimed to know about this back in 2019. And he said that some of his clients who wished to apply for visa regardless of this PY validity also got approved and it totally depends on how case officer interprets the law, and sometimes even make mistakes as new migration officer don't have much experience these days. Government is just planning to give process visas quickly and selecting many officers who don't know what they are even doing or have studied any immigration laws properly.
> 
> As per this consultation, I can only say that it totally depends on us as applicants and if we want to take risk, later taking immi to AAT is also all our choice and we might have chance at winning it but ultimately applicants are the ones to take the risk.


Strange. Really strange.
Now we have more conflicting information.
What is above the legislation? I dont think MARN's info supersedes the federal legislation. I am hearing it for the first time. My two cents here, just wait and watch. I will raise this thing with Karl on 12th during my consultation. Thanks buddy. I will keep u guys updated.


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## DanielSun (5 mo ago)

12Stha12 said:


> So i have just come back and I don't have good news regarding PY validity. that agent showed me some legislation that is only accessible to mara agents, as per him. And there it is written that professional year commencement and end date, as a whole, needs to be within that 48 months. he claimed to know about this back in 2019. And he said that some of his clients who wished to apply for visa regardless of this PY validity also got approved and it totally depends on how case officer interprets the law, and sometimes even make mistakes as new migration officer don't have much experience these days. Government is just planning to give process visas quickly and selecting many officers who don't know what they are even doing or have studied any immigration laws properly.
> 
> As per this consultation, I can only say that it totally depends on us as applicants and if we want to take risk, later taking immi to AAT is also all our choice and we might have chance at winning it but ultimately applicants are the ones to take the risk.


:sigh:

Don't believe everything agents said. ""Legislation" that is only accessible to agents" - don't you see how ridiculous that sounds? I bet my money that "legislation" he mentioned was the same email screenshot that has been shared among them. And again, I have pin-point in details the language in that email, that the intepretation from the agents are incorrect.

Policy and laws are written for the general audience - that is, a reasonable person can understand, no difference between an applicant and an agent. What the agent you talked to basically said, the policy written to general public is wrong, and the "legislation" written to ONLY AGENTS is correct. Also, if that particular "legislation" was widely available to agents since 2019, then how come the agents themselves are conflicting with opinions?

We have to understand, visa applications and process are designed in a way that an independent applicant can apply for themselves - that is, agents are not neccessary. The agents' jobs are just: advising you with different visa pathways, make your paperworks look smooth and guide you if you have not much of the knowledge about Australian immigration system. Everything else, you can find on DHA's website. There is no special treatement between agents and applicants.

I hate when agents counter the facts which appeared right in front of their face with statements like: "oh that person got approved with PY cert with validity more than 3 years from completion date? --- pssst he's just lucky." / "pssst the case officers were just making a mistake". How come DHA continously made mistakes from 2020 till now? There have been no less than 10 cases of approval that I've known of from 2020 to 2022.

Some agents can't even speak/ write/ understand simple and proper english sentences. C'mon guys, let's be real here, agents are not so different from the applicants.

The reason why agents are sticking with the "4 years from start date" was because they are all confused, just like the rest of us. Instead of using logical understanding of English grammar and gather the facts, the inexperienced agents would rather play "safe" and not having their clients getting rejection and fight for the rejected ones later on.

I feel like, don't update with agents anymore - the more you talk to agents, the more confusion created.

Sorry If I sound harsh, but the whole thing about PYP is just plain stupid. Such a logical and simple matter but it is spread out like it is complicated.


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## Whomayun (Dec 24, 2015)

DanielSun said:


> :sigh:
> 
> Don't believe everything agents said. ""Legislation" that is only accessible to agents" - don't you see how ridiculous that sounds? I bet my money that "legislation" he mentioned was the same email screenshot that has been shared among them. And again, I have pin-point in details the language in that email, that the intepretation from the agents are incorrect.
> 
> ...


I agree with u 100%.
Legislation only for the eyes of MARN agents???
I have never heard of this before. No body has ever mentioned it.NOTHING IS ABOVE SCHEDULE 6D6 PERIOD


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## 12Stha12 (24 d ago)

DanielSun said:


> :sigh:
> 
> Don't believe everything agents said. ""Legislation" that is only accessible to agents" - don't you see how ridiculous that sounds? I bet my money that "legislation" he mentioned was the same email screenshot that has been shared among them. And again, I have pin-point in details the language in that email, that the intepretation from the agents are incorrect.
> 
> ...


As my company's lawyer and the agent said, it depends on what and how we interpret. Its totally upto us how we want to translate the meaning. I am totally on your favor and on same situation. You can read my post on what my company's lawyer has replied to me regarding PY validity. I wish everyone of us best of luck and hopefully we get the grants without any fuss or any further hustle.


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## DanielSun (5 mo ago)

Whomayun said:


> I agree with u 100%.
> Legislation only for the eyes of MARN agents???
> I have never heard of this before. No body has ever mentioned it.NOTHING IS ABOVE SCHEDULE 6D6 PERIOD


Not only Schedule 6D but also DHA's website.

If you notice, the contents from DHA's website are exactly the same as from the law; the only difference is that on DHA's, they are broken down into main points/ re-written in a clearer way for the public to understand, because the language from the law is clunky and usually just the experts in migration law may be able to understand correctly.

The people on the phone from DHA are not useless. They are correct to advise us to follow DHA's contents as the primary source. If there is any change in any section => DHA's website would update it; if there is no change in any section => DHA's website would remain the same, simple as that.


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## 12Stha12 (24 d ago)

DanielSun said:


> Not only Schedule 6D but also DHA's website.
> 
> If you notice, the contents from DHA's website are exactly the same as from the law; the only difference is that on DHA's, they are broken down into main points/ re-written in a clearer way for the public to understand, because the language from the law is clunky and usually just the experts in migration law may be able to understand correctly.
> 
> The people on the phone from DHA are not useless. They are correct to advise us to follow DHA's contents as the primary source. If there is any change in any section => DHA's website would update it; if there is no change in any section => DHA's website would remain the same, simple as that.


I think you will get the grant not only because your PYP is valid but also because your VIC nomination was approved with the documents you had provided. However that was not the case for me, my NSW nomination was refused straightaway saying that the information came from home affairs'. I dont think they would just refuse the nomination on my case on any different matter as if i had some different issues with NSW lol.


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## DanielSun (5 mo ago)

12Stha12 said:


> I think you will get the grant not only because your PYP is valid but also because your VIC nomination was approved with the documents you had provided. However that was not the case for me, my NSW nomination was refused straightaway saying that the information came from home affairs'. I dont think they would just refuse the nomination on my case on any different matter as if i had some different issues with NSW lol.


I'm sorry for your case. But to be honest, NSW is a total mess. What.a.state.

And I even bet my money on, that, NSW is the state who sent the email asking about PYP cert's validity to DHA, and got the response from "Migration Skilled Management" - then NSW leaked that email conversation outside to the agents. Then the agents just follow that email, disregard whatever written on DHA's website.

I know it's horrible but we should remain positive and fight for what is logical and right. Even in my case, if the result is not what I expected it to be, I'm pretty sure I would escalate it to the AAT, contact a lawyer and counter the decision.


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## 12Stha12 (24 d ago)

DanielSun said:


> I'm sorry for your case. But to be honest, NSW is a total mess. What.a.state.
> 
> And I even bet my money on, that, NSW is the state who sent the email asking about PYP cert's validity to DHA, and got the response from "Migration Skilled Management" - then NSW leaked that email conversation outside to the agents. Then the agents just follow that email, disregard whatever written on DHA's website.
> 
> I know it's horrible but we should remain positive and fight for what is logical and right. Even in my case, if the result is not what I expected it to be, I'm pretty sure I would escalate it to the AAT, contact a lawyer and counter the decision.


Have a read of this one and let me know what you guys understand. This is from 
*Released by the AAT under FOI on 19 September 2019*


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## Whomayun (Dec 24, 2015)

12Stha12 said:


> Have a read of this one and let me know what you guys understand. This is from
> *Released by the AAT under FOI on 19 September 2019*


Yup.
I posted the document released in Feb 2022 earlier. If they had said "Completed PY comprising of 12 months WITHIN 48 minths..." then most of us would have doomed.


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## Whomayun (Dec 24, 2015)

DanielSun said:


> I'm sorry for your case. But to be honest, NSW is a total mess. What.a.state.
> 
> And I even bet my money on, that, NSW is the state who sent the email asking about PYP cert's validity to DHA, and got the response from "Migration Skilled Management" - then NSW leaked that email conversation outside to the agents. Then the agents just follow that email, disregard whatever written on DHA's website.
> 
> I know it's horrible but we should remain positive and fight for what is logical and right. Even in my case, if the result is not what I expected it to be, I'm pretty sure I would escalate it to the AAT, contact a lawyer and counter the decision.


I called an Indian migration agent. He is quite cunning. He proudly says that he took a case to AAT where the guy had stayed illegally in the country, he won at ATT and now the guy is a citizen. My friend called him and he was aware of this PY drama. He simply said it would be a piece of cake for him at AAT.


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## Whomayun (Dec 24, 2015)

DanielSun said:


> I'm sorry for your case. But to be honest, NSW is a total mess. What.a.state.
> 
> And I even bet my money on, that, NSW is the state who sent the email asking about PYP cert's validity to DHA, and got the response from "Migration Skilled Management" - then NSW leaked that email conversation outside to the agents. Then the agents just follow that email, disregard whatever written on DHA's website.
> 
> I know it's horrible but we should remain positive and fight for what is logical and right. Even in my case, if the result is not what I expected it to be, I'm pretty sure I would escalate it to the AAT, contact a lawyer and counter the decision.


Daniel's visa outcome will clear things to a great extent. 190 is on the processing priority so we can expect to hear the verdict....I am guessing end of March....probably.


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## NB (Mar 29, 2017)

Whomayun said:


> I called an Indian migration agent. He is quite cunning. He proudly says that he took a case to AAT where the guy had stayed illegally in the country, he won at ATT and now the guy is a citizen. My friend called him and he was aware of this PY drama. He simply said it would be a piece of cake for him at AAT.


Don’t take everything that any migration agent says at face value
They will promise you the moon and not give even an inch once you have paid their fees 
They may claim any thing in the world because they don’t have to give you any evidence
Cheers


----------



## Whomayun (Dec 24, 2015)

NB said:


> Don’t take everything that any migration agent says at face value
> They will promise you the moon and not give even an inch once you have paid their fees
> They may claim any thing in the world because they don’t have to give you any evidence
> Cheers


I agree with u completely like 100%. However looking and studying all which is available and my personal experience of representing myself in a courtroom the least I can do is rate the migration agents response. I listen to their arguments and thus far not a single one of them has presented anything illogical.


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## Whomayun (Dec 24, 2015)

NB said:


> Don’t take everything that any migration agent says at face value
> They will promise you the moon and not give even an inch once you have paid their fees
> They may claim any thing in the world because they don’t have to give you any evidence
> Cheers


The word COMPLETED has not been defined properly in any of the official documents. It has a loose definition in addition to EOI question. All of this will come back to bite DHA.


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## 12Stha12 (24 d ago)

Whomayun said:


> Yup.
> I posted the document released in Feb 2022 earlier. If they had said "Completed PY comprising of 12 months WITHIN 48 minths..." then most of us would have doomed.











Read this again.


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## Whomayun (Dec 24, 2015)

12Stha12 said:


> View attachment 102899
> 
> Read this again.


Read that so many times. I have read it again. I refuse to leave the camp which says the validity is for 4 years after completion.
We as applicants get info from Legislation and immi website and finally at EOI stage. There is no explanation there. Even this Commentary is not clear in my opinion because the mail which agents are showing says started and COMPLETED WITHIN 48 months. Here it says comprising of 12 months in the 48 months. Had it said comprising of 12 months WITHIN 48 months then game would've been over. Its a clear example of misleading the client.


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## Whomayun (Dec 24, 2015)

12Stha12 said:


> View attachment 102899
> 
> Read this again.


12Stha brother.
U r referring to a document releaed in 2019
And the specific Schedule governing PY is 6C6.
This Commentary is on 6C6. I believe the current schedule for PY is 6D6 (looks like minor amendments were made). The commentary in document released by AAT this year excludes the words which u have highlighted in your post. 
Looking forward for your reply. Thanks


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## 12Stha12 (24 d ago)

Whomayun said:


> 12Stha brother.
> U r referring to a document releaed in 2019
> And the specific Schedule governing PY is 6C6.
> This Commentary is on 6C6. I believe the current schedule for PY is 6D6 (looks like minor amendments were made). The commentary in document released by AAT this year excludes the words which u have highlighted in your post.
> Looking forward for your reply. Thanks


I want to believe you bro.


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## Whomayun (Dec 24, 2015)

12Stha12 said:


> I want to believe you bro.


Honestly 
Plz saw a few words. The yellow text u highlighted refers to 6C6. Now it is 6D6. The Commentary on 6D6 does not include those words. What do u think?


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## Whomayun (Dec 24, 2015)

Good morning All
Just heard back from the MP's office. This guy is super nice. He said "heard back from Mr. Giles office, there is no policy change u can claim points with in 4 years after completion of the program".
My reply was that this is not enough. Long story short he asked me what should he write back to him so I humbly said please ask him the following question. Can we claim points for PY within 3 years of Completion or within 4 years of Completion date.
Lets see what happens.


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## Whomayun (Dec 24, 2015)

12Stha12 said:


> View attachment 102899
> 
> Read this again.


I got hold of the following. She says up for interpretation.


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## maligireddi (29 d ago)

Hi guys, good news for all of us who are waiting for the confirmation to lodge visas based on the validity of PYP. Please check below video. Thanks and all the best. And also I am invited for VIC 190 without claiming PYP points. Kindly check the below video and start lodging your visas.






Video by karl konrad regarding their validity of PYP.


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## Whomayun (Dec 24, 2015)

maligireddi said:


> Hi guys, good news for all of us who are waiting for the confirmation to lodge visas based on the validity of PYP. Please check below video. Thanks and all the best. And also I am invited for VIC 190 without claiming PYP points. Kindly check the below video and start lodging your visas.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What goes well ends well.
Thank God for that.
Good luck everyone. All the best.
The Australian Dream is Alive


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## 12Stha12 (24 d ago)

I got a call from local mp office yesterday, they are contacting DHA on my behalf to know what the actual validity is. Ill let you guys know what further information they can provide me with.


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## Whomayun (Dec 24, 2015)

12Stha12 said:


> I got a call from local mp office yesterday, they are contacting DHA on my behalf to know what the actual validity is. Ill let you guys know what further information they can provide me with.


U r the man. Best wishes from my side


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## 12Stha12 (24 d ago)

Whomayun said:


> U r the man. Best wishes from my side


Ah thanks, btw i got in with 189 invitation with point substitution way which my company's lawyer came up with, confirmed with other agents and lawyers, all agree that i can swap my pyp points with experience points. So yayy. Also got nsw 190 nomination last night without pyp. So yayy again. Need to decide which one to take, waiting confirmation from lawyer. We all will get through this and i am just relieved that i dont have to deal with this pyp **** anymore. Good luck to everyone and we will all get positive outcome soon.

Ill post what i hear back from MP office here once they come back.


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## Whomayun (Dec 24, 2015)

12Stha12 said:


> Ah thanks, btw i got in with 189 invitation with point substitution way which my company's lawyer came up with, confirmed with other agents and lawyers, all agree that i can swap my pyp points with experience points. So yayy. Also got nsw 190 nomination last night without pyp. So yayy again. Need to decide which one to take, waiting confirmation from lawyer. We all will get through this and i am just relieved that i dont have to deal with this pyp **** anymore. Good luck to everyone and we will all get positive outcome soon.
> 
> Ill post what i hear back from MP office here once they come back.


Congrats 
It means if PYP certificate is not accepted then one solution is to add the same amount of points lets say by NAATI (in this case) or add 10 points by improving english test score. Thus at point of application assessment u actually have more points than your claimed points at EOI submission stage. Right? Or am I not getting the concept?


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## 12Stha12 (24 d ago)

Whomayun said:


> Congrats
> It means if PYP certificate is not accepted then one solution is to add the same amount of points lets say by NAATI (in this case) or add 10 points by improving english test score. Thus at point of application assessment u actually have more points than your claimed points at EOI submission stage. Right? Or am I not getting the concept?


Yes, all you need is you can substitute that invalid point with the point which you have not claimed in your EOI. So ultimately you will remain on same amount of point for which you got the invitation. 
On my case, i never claimed any points for my experience and neither do i have skill assessment for computer network job, just post study assessment. But we can prove that i have enough experience to get that 5 points through my employment contract/tax/payslips and my current 482 visa- also on computer network. 
So i will let go of 5 points for pyp and add 5 points for my experience. Also note that acs skill assessment (or any authority bodies) is not mandatory for claiming points for 189 visa. So i would still have 90 points which i claimed in my EOI. 

So if you guys have 5 points which you can get from somewhere, but needs to be valid at the time of invitation, then you can stop worrying about your pyp. But PYP is valid from what i have understood of the legislation that they have, no matter what others say.


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## DanielSun (5 mo ago)

12Stha12 said:


> Yes, all you need is you can substitute that invalid point with the point which you have not claimed in your EOI. So ultimately you will remain on same amount of point for which you got the invitation.
> On my case, i never claimed any points for my experience and neither do i have skill assessment for computer network job, just post study assessment. But we can prove that i have enough experience to get that 5 points through my employment contract/tax/payslips and my current 482 visa- also on computer network.
> So i will let go of 5 points for pyp and add 5 points for my experience. Also note that acs skill assessment (or any authority bodies) is not mandatory for claiming points for 189 visa. So i would still have 90 points which i claimed in my EOI.
> 
> So if you guys have 5 points which you can get from somewhere, but needs to be valid at the time of invitation, then you can stop worrying about your pyp. But PYP is valid from what i have understood of the legislation that they have, no matter what others say.


Hey! Congrats on your situation. 

Just wanna understand your "points substitution" clearly. So, if in the case my PYP certificate is invalid, then I could use any other factor which contributes to at least 5 points to make up the invalid value of PYP (eg. work experience) that I have not claimed. And, this would work even after visa invitation/ visa application stage? And we could negotiate this with the visa assessor at DHA?

Well, I actually have 52 weeks of Australian work experience in my field that I didn't claim 5 points (already got assessed as a valid experience by an authority who completed my skills assessment). So if what you said is possible then I might have another path when things turned sideways.


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## Whomayun (Dec 24, 2015)

12Stha12 said:


> Ah thanks, btw i got in with 189 invitation with point substitution way which my company's lawyer came up with, confirmed with other agents and lawyers, all agree that i can swap my pyp points with experience points. So yayy. Also got nsw 190 nomination last night without pyp. So yayy again. Need to decide which one to take, waiting confirmation from lawyer. We all will get through this and i am just relieved that i dont have to deal with this pyp **** anymore. Good luck to everyone and we will all get positive outcome soon.
> 
> Ill post what i hear back from MP office here once they come back.


Just some heads up bro if your PY was in the same duration/ timeslot as that of your experience. The internship has to be at a different place or u can show your job for 12 week internship.
One person that I know personally made this blunder. He claimed PY and experience points. His showed his internship at his work place. The CO asked u r doing a job there then how come this internship as well. The immigration is updated by the PYP providera about the internship. That poor soul withdrew his 189 application and got 489 nsw nomination. He has been waiting for over 4 years to get his visa granted. Just be careful. All the best


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## 12Stha12 (24 d ago)

DanielSun said:


> Hey! Congrats on your situation.
> 
> Just wanna understand your "points substitution" clearly. So, if in the case my PYP certificate is invalid, then I could use any other factor which contributes to at least 5 points to make up the invalid value of PYP (eg. work experience) that I have not claimed. And, this would work even after visa invitation/ visa application stage? And we could negotiate this with the visa assessor at DHA?
> 
> Well, I actually have 52 weeks of Australian work experience in my field that I didn't claim 5 points (already got assessed as a valid experience by an authority who completed my skills assessment). So if what you said is possible then I might have another path when things turned sideways.


Definitely, you are good to go for point substitution if you have experience. But not sure when you can use it(before, after or during application). You know most of the agents and lawyers i have spoken with never said anything about this criteria because they didn't know the situation. But once i got to my company's lawyer he knew what i was doing and what visa/occupation/experience i was on atm. So he came up with it on the phone. I have even posted his email on this forum, where he have said that i can clearly add my work experience as additional 5 points.

After his confirmation, i went back to those agents and lawyers, who claimed that this would valid but didnt tell me when i went for just py validity question. 

I would suggest you to meet up with some agent or lawyer and confirm this for you because i really dont know if you can do this after you have submitted for the visa application. But i guess you should be fine to claim points before any outcome is made to your visa just to be on safe side.


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## Whomayun (Dec 24, 2015)

U r not getting my point.
I ask u a question....while u were doing your PYP, were u doing a job at the same time as well? If so did u do internship for PYP program or showed your active job for the 12 week requirement. Thanks


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## 12Stha12 (24 d ago)

Whomayun said:


> Just some heads up bro if your PY was in the same duration/ timeslot as that of your experience. The internship has to be at a different place or u can show your job for 12 week internship.
> One person that I know personally made this blunder. He claimed PY and experience points. His showed his internship at his work place. The CO asked u r doing a job there then how come this internship as well. The immigration is updated by the PYP providera about the internship. That poor soul withdrew his 189 application and got 489 nsw nomination. He has been waiting for over 4 years to get his visa granted. Just be careful. All the best


If i am substituting my py why would i bother. Also my intership and job was at same place, but i am only claiming last 2 years of experience as that would be enough for me or even last 1 year to claim that 5 points. Py internship was like 48 months ago and as per everyone here, it might or might not be valid.


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## 12Stha12 (24 d ago)

Whomayun said:


> U r not getting my point.
> I ask u a question....while u were doing your PYP, were u doing a job at the same time as well? If so did u do internship for PYP program or showed your active job for the 12 week requirement. Thanks


Check carefully whose post i am replying for bro. We are typically posting at the same time. Lol


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## Whomayun (Dec 24, 2015)

12Stha12 said:


> If i am substituting my py why would i bother. Also my intership and job was at same place, but i am only claiming last 2 years of experience as that would be enough for me or even last 1 year to claim that 5 points. Py internship was like 48 months ago and as per everyone here, it might or might not be valid.


Brother another follow up question (s)
I gather your PY internship and experience were at at the same place. Right?
If the answer is yes then show the experience which started after your internship ended.
Dont show the experience before the internship. It will mess up things 4 u


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## Whomayun (Dec 24, 2015)

Dont get into this substitution stuff .
Simply go for your invite where u haven't mentioned about your py certificate


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## 12Stha12 (24 d ago)

Whomayun said:


> Brother another follow up question (s)
> I gather your PY internship and experience were at at the same place. Right?
> If the answer is yes then show the experience which started after your internship ended.
> Dont show the experience before the internship. It will mess up things 4 u


Bro you are not getting the whole situation, but thanks for the concern. I am only claiming last 1-2 year experience. I did my py internship 48 months ago.


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## Mtr08 (3 d ago)

Hi guys. I have completed my PY on 29/08/2019. I received my 189 invite on 8/12/2022. should I apply? What will happen if it gets rejected


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## Mtr08 (3 d ago)

Someone here is going to speak with Karl Konrad tomorrow , please can you ask him what the steps and cost are after refusal? Has this happened before in the recent years


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## DanielSun (5 mo ago)

Mtr08 said:


> Hi guys. I have completed my PY on 29/08/2019. I received my 189 invite on 8/12/2022. should I apply? What will happen if it gets rejected


If I were you, I would still apply because your PYP certificate is less than 4 years old from completion date. Ofcourse, you should make your own judgement by researching on the situation (this thread could be a good source).

If you get rejected, if, then I think you should approach to lawyers and contact the AAT. But even so, I think you would win at the court easily. I haven't researched about the court fees but reasonably, I think it should be less than $10k: AAT review application is like $3k, and plus lawyers fees etc. It really depends on the case.


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## Whomayun (Dec 24, 2015)

Karl will charge 6600 for aat


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## Mtr08 (3 d ago)

Thank you so much for replying to me. I have waited 7 years for this invite and really want to fight it and will have to take a THIRD student visa which I don’t wish to do at all. 

Is it safe to say 6600+3.5K. Any idea how long the process is and if I can continue living and working in the time being?


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## Mtr08 (3 d ago)

DanielSun said:


> If I were you, I would still apply because your PYP certificate is less than 4 years old from completion date. Ofcourse, you should make your own judgement by researching on the situation (this thread could be a good source).
> 
> If you get rejected, if, then I think you should approach to lawyers and contact the AAT. But even so, I think you would win at the court easily. I haven't researched about the court fees but reasonably, I think it should be less than $10k: AAT review application is like $3k, and plus lawyers fees etc. It really depends on the case.


Have you received the outcome of your invite with PYP Daniel?


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## Whomayun (Dec 24, 2015)

I waited for 8 years for this good news.
Not sure about the charges of AAT. But they will replace this aat with another body which will work faster. Your 189 will take 3-4 months to process. Its on priority list of visa processing. All the best.


Mtr08 said:


> Thank you so much for replying to me. I have waited 7 years for this invite and really want to fight it and will have to take a THIRD student visa which I don’t wish to do at all.
> 
> Is it safe to say 6600+3.5K. Any idea how long the process is and if I can continue living and working in the time being?


Not sure about your visa situation but if u were granted bridging visa a for 189 and once its active yes u can work full time even during the waiting phase of aat hearing WHICH I HOPE NEVER COMES AND U RECEIVE DIRECT GRANT GOD WILLING AMEN


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## DanielSun (5 mo ago)

Mtr08 said:


> Have you received the outcome of your invite with PYP Daniel?


No worries. And yeah, ~$10k is a reasonable amount in the case of reviewing. I also don't think anyone on here has faced legal proceeding with immigration topics so I'm unsure about the length of time and the exact costs, sorry.

Yeah I feel you, waiting for such a long time and now dealing with this PYP situation is like our "best nightmare". And no, I still haven't gotten any outcome on my application yet. It seems like the procedure for 190 is much longer than expected, because DHA is prioritising 189 and the occupations on the priority list, though I am an offshore applicant, so I should be at least a little bit faster.


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## Whomayun (Dec 24, 2015)

DanielSun said:


> No worries. And yeah, ~$10k is a reasonable amount in the case of reviewing. I also don't think anyone on here has faced legal proceeding with immigration topics so I'm unsure about the length of time and the exact costs, sorry.
> 
> Yeah I feel you, waiting for such a long time and now dealing with this PYP situation is like our "best nightmare". And no, I still haven't gotten any outcome on my application yet. It seems like the procedure for 190 is much longer than expected, because DHA is prioritising 189 and the occupations on the priority list, though I am an offshore applicant, so I shouls be at least a little bit faster.


Do let us know about the outcome 
Thanks and all the best


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## sharansekhon57 (1 mo ago)

Hi, i am confused by your post you have mentioned that u got refusal for your NSW 190? and you applying again rather than fighting your case in court can you please clarify as you alreday got the response from DHA especially the reason?


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## sharansekhon57 (1 mo ago)

12Stha12 said:


> Below is my refusal for NSW 190, i feel like its worth taking the risk because they clearly are on wrong side of their own rule. I am waiting out to see if there is one more nsw 190 round before 20th of Jan, because that is when my pte is expiring. Otherwise i am going for it.
> 
> Btw my py is expiring on 12 jan from completion date. But hopefully that will be valid at the time of invitation.
> 
> ...


Hi, i am confused by your post you have mentioned that u got refusal for your NSW 190? and you applying again rather than fighting your case in court can you please clarify as you alreday got the response from DHA especially the reason?


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## 12Stha12 (24 d ago)

DanielSun said:


> Hey! Congrats on your situation.
> 
> Just wanna understand your "points substitution" clearly. So, if in the case my PYP certificate is invalid, then I could use any other factor which contributes to at least 5 points to make up the invalid value of PYP (eg. work experience) that I have not claimed. And, this would work even after visa invitation/ visa application stage? And we could negotiate this with the visa assessor at DHA?
> 
> ...





sharansekhon57 said:


> Hi, i am confused by your post you have mentioned that u got refusal for your NSW 190? and you applying again rather than fighting your case in court can you please clarify as you alreday got the response from DHA especially the reason?


Thant


sharansekhon57 said:


> Hi, i am confused by your post you have mentioned that u got refusal for your NSW 190? and you applying again rather than fighting your case in court can you please clarify as you alreday got the response from DHA especially the reason?


It was a nomination refusal, not visa refusal. So no way to fight back.


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## Whomayun (Dec 24, 2015)

Greetings 
So another thing got confirmed today.
The theory of Mr. Karl Konrad that since 2011 PY program's have been running short of 52 weeks legislative requirement. That is NOT true. The COE of any PY is enough to bust this. I called my PYP provider and confirmed the start and end dates on my COE. The dates were:
START : 6/1/2018
END : 8/1/2019
Hence all PYP proceedings are 100 legitimate & all the legislative requirements are being met to this day. I called Mr. Konrad today , just a suggestion to everyone, please dont call him regarding this matter atleast. He said, if your application is rejected then the dangerous thing would be to prove that it was for 52 weeks whereas you studied for 44 weeks. I did my research after the call ended, obviously.


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## DanielSun (5 mo ago)

Whomayun said:


> Greetings
> So another thing got confirmed today.
> The theory of Mr. Karl Konrad that since 2011 PY program's have been running short of 52 weeks legislative requirement. That is NOT true. The COE of any PY is enough to bust this. I called my PYP provider and confirmed the start and end dates on my COE. The dates were:
> START : 6/1/2018
> ...


Hey. I think the start and end dates depend on an individual. In your case, the start and end date make up of 52 weeks, but for most people, their program only runs for 44 weeks.

I agree with 90% of what Karl said. Karl was correct about the PYP is of 44 weeks and not 52 weeks. What Karl was missing regarding the length of the course, was that this issue was once raised and presented in a court case back in 2012. This is the link of the case: 1208793 [2012] MRTA 3632 (27 November 2012) (austlii.edu.au)

- Issue: "...the Tribunal advised the applicant that although the delegate awarded her points for her *professional year*, it may not do so because it appears to have been for 44 weeks, rather than 52 weeks (12 months) as required by the legislation. "

- Findings:
a) "On 27 November 2012, the Tribunal received a letter from Performance Education addressed to the representative. The Chief Executive Officer, Mr Owen Firth, states the following:


> > There appears to be some inconsistency in the information regarding the duration requirement of the SMIPA program. From the guidance we have received from DIAC we are entitled to refer to our program as a 52-week program, being a 44-week program plus an 8-week holiday program."


b) "The representative also refers to correspondence to Performance Education from Ms Fulvia Timmerman of the Points Based Skilled Migration section of the Department who states the following:


> > Regarding your question, you are correct when you state that the PY is ‘mandated to be a minimum of 44 weeks in length’ Having said that, this 44-week course does not need to be undertaken in one 44-week block, but can be staggered which can also account for holidays. Any mention of 52 weeks, or 12 months, would be this 44 week plus an 8-week holiday period."


- Decision: "The Tribunal accepts the letter from Performance Education and also accepts that the duration of a course may encompass additional leave periods. Accordingly, the Tribunal accepts that the *professional year *undertaken by the applicant, being the Skilled Migration Internship Program – Accounting, is of 52 weeks (12 months) duration. The Tribunal finds that this was in a gazetted *professional year *program and that the gazette notice that applied at the time of application was IMMI 08/074, ‘*Professional Year *Programs’"

Even though this case referred to Schedule 6C, it is still applicable to Schedule 6D as the requirement about the course's duration didn't change. Basically, 44 weeks is fine, as the students are entitled to have an optional 8 weeks of break. So, the duration of the PYP is my least worrying issue, since this has already been resolved in the past.

Additional queries: um, so, you have had a talk with Karl today hey? What exactly did you exchange with him besides the length of the PYP?


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## Whomayun (Dec 24, 2015)

DanielSun said:


> Hey. I think the start and end dates depends on an individual. In your case, the start and end date make up of 52 weeks, but for most people, their program only runs for 44 weeks.
> 
> I agree with 90% of what Karl said. Karl was correct about the PYP is of 44 weeks and not 52 weeks. What Karl was missing regarding the length of the course, was that this issue was once raised and presented in a court case back in 2012. This is the link of the case: 1208793 [2012] MRTA 3632 (27 November 2012) (austlii.edu.au)
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing this
I will definitely read once done with my job today
Karl said nothing special today. I will try to post here about the conversation which I had with him 
Thanks Daniel. U r a legend.


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## 12Stha12 (24 d ago)

Hi Guys, i need some recommendations for my decision here.

My lawyer and all other agents said 189 is achievable with points substitute and i should have no issues getting positive outcome. But as now i also got 190(straight forward Eoi with all correct details) i am abit hesitant to may be 189 can get complicated.

My lawyer called me yesterday and said he is confident that 189 would be granted without issues and dont go with 190 as turn around time might be long. Where for 189, you will get the outcome within 2-3 months or soon. I asked pro visa in sydney and they said 189 should have no issues and they have never seen any negative outcome for the process they have done as per point substitution way.

My lawyer also said there will be no complications while submitting the documents and it will be a straight forward case for him. Unless case officer makes a mistake, but that would be very rare as we would be posting legislation to prove the process is valid, just to assure that we have the right to claim it. Now i am not sure what way i should go. This is like if you dont have it, you have got issues, and now when you have it, its more issues. Any suggestions are welcome. 

My lawyer even said that case officer might interpret schedule 6d favourably and even my pyp would be valid.


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## 12Stha12 (24 d ago)

Just to mention that one of our friend here and some mara agents said that 189 is possible but why make it complicated, i cant get my head out of it.


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## DanielSun (5 mo ago)

12Stha12 said:


> Hi Guys, i need some recommendations for my decision here.
> 
> My lawyer and all other agents said 189 is achievable with points substitute and i should have no issues getting positive outcome. But as now i also got 190(straight forward Eoi with all correct details) i am abit hesitant to may be 189 can get complicated.
> 
> ...


I mean........ You have the advantages that other people on here don't, which is "a choice".

Choice number 1 - 189:

Pros: potentially (potentially only, not guaranteed) that your application is to be processed faster than 190. Of course, along with the perk of being able to live freely everywhere in Australia.
Cons: complicated. Well, yes your PYP is valid because it is less than 4 years from completion date, but with the amount of conflicting information about PYP around, do you want to live with constant anxiety and stress while waiting for the decision being made on your visa? Similar to your points substitution route, it is advised as "doable" but it is rather odd as not a lot of people have done this before; this would definitely create constant "trauma" for you while waiting for the decision.

Choice number 2 - 190:

Pros: straightforward and easy to get, since you have submitted your EOI "right" this time to fit with whatever NSW wants.
Cons: potentially that your application is to be processed longer than 189. But, again, the current processing time data for 190 does not predict the time you would get your visa decision. It just means that the Department is pulling out the very old application to process, that's why the average processing time is going up. I am seeing the trend like this: last month, DHA was processing 190 for application lodged up until end of October 2022, then they stopped with 190 (except for prioritising occupations) and they rolled their sleeves to handle 189 applications; currently, they are processing 189 applications lodged in October 2022. I would assume in the next few weeks, they will slow down 189, and proportion their time more for 190. Besides this, another cons is of course that you have to live in NSW for at least 2 years as per the condition attached to 190.

If I were you, I would choose the easy way - the less complicated one. Waiting a little bit longer, but, it will be smooth and drama-free. To be honest, since I lodged my application back in November 2022, my mental health is deteriorating, all because of this PYP. If I did have a choice like you, I would choose a path which is supporting my health.


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