# Temporary TIE and being out of Spain for +6 months



## membawa (Dec 16, 2019)

Just wondering - I have a temporary TIE and have been out of Spain for a few months now. 

I understand that if you're on a temp TIE. you lose residency after 6 months.

I'm wondering how this works in practice - if 6 months go by and I fly back to Spain, what will happen exactly when I show my TIE at the airport? Will alarm bells go off and they'll investigate my bank accounts and things?


----------



## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Presumably they can see when you left on passport if it was stamped. Either way they can and do check


----------



## membawa (Dec 16, 2019)

My passport wasn't stamped which is why I'm wondering how they check. I just don't want to be arrested at the airport or something. I'm wondering if they will scan my passport and an alarm will go off saying 'this person has been outside of Spain for 6 months' and they'll immediately confiscate my card. The thing is, last time I left Spain it was by train and I didn't show my passport. I wonder if I'll be held at the airport until they've checked all of my bank details and things.


----------



## MataMata (Nov 30, 2008)

Your passport is tied to your residency in the system and stamped or not just from that they will know you are resident and when you left the country.

If you have been away for over 6 months awkward questions could well be asked - or worse!


----------



## membawa (Dec 16, 2019)

The thing is, when I left, I didn't announce it to them, I just left thinking I would be coming straight back, but then covid happened and things got complicated -- that's why I don't get how they would know when I left.

I don't think I will be able to live in Spain again now as I will probably lose my residency, I'm more just curious about how exactly they would know. I suppose through looking at bank statements to see if I'd been using my card in Spain? Does that mean I need to bring printouts and things to show the border officers? (that is, if I do manage to get back before the 6 months).


----------



## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

I would imagine they can tell because they must check all 3rd country residents when they leave and enter just by scanning your passport.


----------



## membawa (Dec 16, 2019)

kaipa said:


> I would imagine they can tell because they must check all 3rd country residents when they leave and enter just by scanning your passport.


Thing is, when I left Spain, I took the train through France and they never checked my passport. So I suppose that according to their systems, I never left, which is a bit worrying.


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

It's the basic principle of immigration that you need to be able to demonstrate you have not stayed away longer than 6 months without exceptional reasons and not for the officials to show you have. So if the border official has any doubt over your residency, they will ask how long you have been away and it's up to you to show you are eligible to re-enter as returning resident, such as rental agreement, bank statement, payment of taxes etc. In the borderless Schengen, it will be at Schengen external border where you will be questioned if you have gone back to UK.


----------



## membawa (Dec 16, 2019)

Thanks a lot, I will be sure to bring those documents then if I do return before the 6 months. I need to go back at some point anyway to close my resident bank accounts.


----------



## MataMata (Nov 30, 2008)

However you travelled back there must have been a point at which you had to produce your passport, that will be on record and available to authorities throughout the whole Schengen area.


----------



## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

I didn't know you could have a 6 month old TIE. Are you sure its a TIE?

Although technically your right to reside in Span expired after 6 months away, I really doubt that they will really go to any lengths to check your movements.

If your "TIE" or certificate of residence is apparently valid when you arrive in the airport, they really have no reason to suspect or check anything. I don't think they check everyone's history at the border check unless there are grounds for suspicion.

I assume that you do not have access to the address where you are registered in Spain so I personally woud just show up, get a new place then go to change your address on the "TIE".

Of course if any questions are asked do not lie!

I was away from Spain for 3 years, although it was pre-Brexit, and when I cam back I used the same certificate of residence which had technically expired, just by changing the address. I had taken my kids out of school, declared myself as non tax resident and had obviously moved away, but it didn't cause any issue as far as extranjería were concerned.


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Overandout said:


> I didn't know you could have a 6 month old TIE. Are you sure its a TIE?


If you applied for it last October/November it would be 6 months old.

I agree, I don't think the OP will have a problem as a resident returning home.


----------



## Roy C (Sep 29, 2012)

On this subject, we went to the UK mid december for a number of reasons (mainly elderly in laws), i had my green residency from October my wife applied October, and has now just picked up her TIE card. We came back last week, so when does the six months start, from mid December or Jan 1st ? We would like to pop over to see them again in the winter but are afraid of breaking the six month rule and not sure how long we could stay there.


----------



## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Roy C said:


> On this subject, we went to the UK mid december for a number of reasons (mainly elderly in laws), i had my green residency from October my wife applied October, and has now just picked up her TIE card. We came back last week, so when does the six months start, from mid December or Jan 1st ? We would like to pop over to see them again in the winter but are afraid of breaking the six month rule and not sure how long we could stay there.


How long have you actually been a resident?


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

It's 6 months in a calendar year, so starting 1st January.


----------



## Barriej (Jul 23, 2012)

This was published in the local a couple of months ago.

*How long can I stay outside Spain before I lose my residency right?

Vicky asked: “I have a TIE but am stuck in lockdown in UK and don’t want to travel at the moment, how long can I legally be out of Spain as resident?

Geddie answered: “If she was resident here for less than five years (therefore has temporal status) then absences of up to six months in a year don’t affect your status but in exceptional circumstances an absence of up to 12 months can be considered, such as illness, giving birth or an overseas posting. It’s not clear whether Covid will be considered an acceptable reason for absence.
“For more than five years and therefore permanent then you don’t have to worry about absences of up to five years.”
She emphasized that the clock started ticking the date you left Spain rather than January 1st and advises those who are unclear about whether their circumstances would fall under the “exceptional” to contact the Spanish authorities such as Spain’s consulate in London for advice.*

So if the above is true, your 6 months started the date you left (although how that could be proved, if you left before dec 2020 as the UK was still part of the UK).

I had thought that the absences were cumulative and you were not allowed to be out of the country for more than 12 months in the first five years. (so 6 months year 1 will only leave you able to leave for 6 months spread over the remaining 4 years.)
Could be and am usually wrong.


----------



## Roy C (Sep 29, 2012)

kaipa said:


> How long have you actually been a resident?


October last year.


----------



## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Roy C said:


> October last year.


You will probably be okay to return but you only have 10 months absence for five years so you wont have much chance to stay in UK again for long holidays.


----------



## Roy C (Sep 29, 2012)

kaipa said:


> You will probably be okay to return but you only have 10 months absence for five years so you wont have much chance to stay in UK again for long holidays.


I'm an EU citizen, does that make a difference? Plus under the WA my wife is allowed up to 6 months every year i believe.


----------



## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

I dont think it has anything to do with being an EU member. I always thought it was 6 months maximum in a year and 10 months cumulative in first 5 years. I was reading today that one of the strange a changes of the WA is that after 5 years you can be absent for a cumulative period of 5 years whereas EU members only have 2 years.


----------



## Roy C (Sep 29, 2012)

There is a pdf document issued by the EU, Google, The rights of UK citizens under the Withdrawal Agreement 2.16, it's a PDF doc and that point 2.16 explains it clearly.

I'm not bothered about the 2 year 5 year thing as I don't intend long term absences.


----------



## MataMata (Nov 30, 2008)

Your Google reference brings up nothing useful, if you have a link why not just post it?

e.g. Withdrawal Agreement explainer for part 2: citizens’ rights

From which I quote:

"14. Those who have not yet resided continuously and lawfully for five years in
their host state by the end of the transition period will also be able to stay until
they have reached the five year threshold, at which point they will qualify for
the right to reside permanently. *Until this five year threshold has been met,
continuity of residence in the host state will be broken by a period or periods
of more than six months in total in any 12-month period.* One absence lasting
a maximum of 12 consecutive months for an important reason, such as
pregnancy and childbirth, serious illness, study, vocational training or a
posting abroad is permitted."

End quote.

For those who have, or had, a green residencia their residency commenced on the date that was issued, for those first acquiring residency by applying for a TIE it's the date on that which will be the date you went for your first appointment and had your fingerprints taken.

Those applying for residency as 3rd country nationals are subject to the 10 month cumulative rule.



Joppa said:


> It's 6 months in a calendar year, so starting 1st January.


The *"six months in total in any 12-month period" *in the above conclusively proves that is not so.


----------



## Roy C (Sep 29, 2012)

MataMata said:


> Your Google reference brings up nothing useful, if you have a link why not just post it?
> 
> e.g. Withdrawal Agreement explainer for part 2: citizens’ rights
> 
> ...


It says, if broken by a period of more than 6 months, therefore if under 6 months per year, then that is allowed. In your last sentence, you conveniently left out the more than 6 months.

"Until this five year threshold has been met,
continuity of residence in the host state will be broken by a period or periods
of more than six months in total in any 12-month period"


----------



## simonkenyon68 (Apr 24, 2019)

What's the practical effect of an absence of more than 6 months, if you have a temporary TIE issued under the withdrawal agreement? Is it the case that the absences are tallied up when the card expires in 5 years (i.e. when you attempt to renew it for a permanent residence) - or does your immigration status as a resident of Spain lapse automatically on the first day after your accumulated six months absence (and therefore you should probably stop using you TIE at the border if visiting again) ? 

We're in this exact situation - we've lived in Spain in our holiday home since June last year, working our UK jobs remotely in the pandemic, and applied for and got TIEs as was required. This is all coming to an end now as normality returns so we'll definitely be spending more than six months a year out of Spain going forward.


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

simonkenyon68 said:


> What's the practical effect of an absence of more than 6 months, if you have a temporary TIE issued under the withdrawal agreement? Is it the case that the absences are tallied up when the card expires in 5 years (i.e. when you attempt to renew it for a permanent residence) - or does your immigration status as a resident of Spain lapse automatically on the first day after your accumulated six months absence (and therefore you should probably stop using you TIE at the border if visiting again) ?
> 
> We're in this exact situation - we've lived in Spain in our holiday home since June last year, working our UK jobs remotely in the pandemic, and applied for and got TIEs as was required. This is all coming to an end now as normality returns so we'll definitely be spending more than six months a year out of Spain going forward.


The second. So after you are away from Spain for 6 months, your TIE lapses and you can only return as visitor (90-in-180 days visa-free) or have to take out a suitable long-stay visa. The question is will the Spanish authorities find out about your status? Like on most immigration matters, it's question of whether you can demonstrate you are still a Spanish resident, and not for them to show you you aren't. Currently, even scanning your passport, no record is kept of your movement in and out of Schengen (we have to wait till the introduction of ETIAS expected sometime in 2022). If your absence is just over the 6-month mark, you can probably return as resident, taking such evidence as property deeds, tax payment, utility bills etc in case they ask. Clearly it will be more difficult if your absence runs into a year or more.


----------



## Barriej (Jul 23, 2012)

simonkenyon68 said:


> What's the practical effect of an absence of more than 6 months, if you have a temporary TIE issued under the withdrawal agreement? Is it the case that the absences are tallied up when the card expires in 5 years (i.e. when you attempt to renew it for a permanent residence) - or does your immigration status as a resident of Spain lapse automatically on the first day after your accumulated six months absence (and therefore you should probably stop using you TIE at the border if visiting again) ?
> 
> We're in this exact situation - we've lived in Spain in our holiday home since June last year, working our UK jobs remotely in the pandemic, and applied for and got TIEs as was required. This is all coming to an end now as normality returns so we'll definitely be spending more than six months a year out of Spain going forward.


I dont actually think anyone can give you a definitive answer. 
The 'rules' are clear, but until you get to the point of swapping temp to perm on your TIE, you (and most of us who have the TIE as a result of the WA) will only find out at that point. (in 5 years time).
Spanish bureaucracy being what it is, the outcome is anyones guess.

Many people are going to be in similar situations as yours, being 'stuck' here and 'having' to become resident, but not actually wanting to be. My neighbour is in a similar situation, he had an accident that prevented him from traveling, so he became resident. 
He has no intention of moving here permanently but has intimated that he will use the TIE as a 'get out of jail' free card to spend more than 90 days here. I hope he is found out, but cannot see how, unless your TIE is swiped on the way out and in, and this is then recorded.

Likewise you could have a Spanish TIE and pop across the border to France etc for a couple of years and apart from all your bank transactions being in French shops, there is nothing saying you left Spain.


----------



## simonkenyon68 (Apr 24, 2019)

Exactly - I think in all likelihood we would never run into wanting to spend more than 90 days in 180 going forward, assuming we both retain our jobs in the UK and the pandemic wanes. The TIE for us was a bit of a blessing since it enabled us to sit out the UK's winter lockdown somewhere more pleasant, but obviously we don't want to fall foul of any rules going forward, particularly since we'll want to retire to Spain for real in 3 years's time. At this point we accept that we'll either have to move house in Spain to trigger the Golden Visa or more likely get the non-lucrative temporary permit and stay put in Spain for 5 years.

If only Brexit had happened a few years later (or I was 3 years older!) the WA TIE would have all worked out neatly for retirement, but there you go!


----------



## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Just so people know Spain can track your whereabouts. I am being investigated by the Hacienda at this moment. They sent a black letter with a list of my 2016 income in UK, employer name/ address, my bank statements, rents etc. I phoned the UK tax and they claimed that they didn't provide the information!. Either way I am not worried as I have proof I was less than 183 days and paid tax in UK for that year. Either way it proves they can easily track you.


----------



## Barriej (Jul 23, 2012)

kaipa said:


> Just so people know Spain can track your whereabouts. I am being investigated by the Hacienda at this moment. They sent a black letter with a list of my 2016 income in UK, employer name/ address, my bank statements, rents etc. I phoned the UK tax and they claimed that they didn't provide the information!. Either way I am not worried as I have proof I was less than 183 days and paid tax in UK for that year. Either way it proves they can easily track you.


But thats for tax, hopefully all government departments 'talk' to each other. If so, then it should be fairly easy to be found out. 
However Im not too sure that there is that level of communication in Spain, nor across the EU. Could be wrong, but its not worth trying to see if its true.

As to the investigation by Hacienda, when we moved over late August, the solicitor we used told me to keep all my paperwork for 2020. I also made sure I had no income for the remaining months here.
I started 2021 both physically and financially resident in Spain. (though I will be reclaiming my tax back for 2020 from the Uk later this year)

Anyway back to the thread. Once the ETIAS system is up and running, this should flag up people who are in the wrong place and with the wrong paperwork.
Ive been stopped at passport control going into Canada as I had an electronic temp work visa and was sent to the immigration desk. Same in Australia and the US. The Canadian one was in 2018 and it took 4 hours and many phone calls to confirm my visit (and I had all the paperwork etc).


----------



## Roy C (Sep 29, 2012)

Surely the stamping of the passport would be a record of movements.

We arrived on the 18th after settling all our stuff up in the UK since December, so as far as the tax goes we have an appointment with a Spanish tax advisor next Tuesday to start the ball rolling with that, currently income is taxed at source in the UK, occupational pension and a rental, which has literally just commenced today.


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Roy C said:


> I'm an EU citizen, does that make a difference? Plus under the WA my wife is allowed up to 6 months every year i believe.


That's correct.

If your wife has a TIE issued under the WA she can leave for 6 months in each twelve for the first 5 years.

Which is how it works for EU citizens, too.


----------



## simonkenyon68 (Apr 24, 2019)

Is there an un-TIE-ing process? Given we probably won't be wanting to be (or in fact able) to be in Spain for more than 90/180 for the foreseeable, part of me wonders whether hanging on to it (temporary, expiring in a little under 5 years) is a bit of a liability. Our financial footprint in Spain is pretty minimal - a current account with a few hundred euros in it, topped up to pay the utility bills - we work for UK companies and are well under the 183 days per year. However I guess it's theoretically possible that the tax office could spring the dreaded black letter on us while we're back in London and unable to do anything about it, _if_ having a TIE and not submitting tax returns by itself looks sufficiently anomalous. The law would seem to put us clearly as UK tax residents but you do read all these horror stories on ex-pat forums...


----------



## trotter58 (Feb 8, 2017)

simonkenyon68 said:


> Is there an un-TIE-ing process? Given we probably won't be wanting to be (or in fact able) to be in Spain for more than 90/180 for the foreseeable, part of me wonders whether hanging on to it (temporary, expiring in a little under 5 years) is a bit of a liability. Our financial footprint in Spain is pretty minimal - a current account with a few hundred euros in it, topped up to pay the utility bills - we work for UK companies and are well under the 183 days per year. However I guess it's theoretically possible that the tax office could spring the dreaded black letter on us while we're back in London and unable to do anything about it, _if_ having a TIE and not submitting tax returns by itself looks sufficiently anomalous. The law would seem to put us clearly as UK tax residents but you do read all these horror stories on ex-pat forums...


In your position I would sign off the padron, which would indicate that you're no longer habitually resident in Spain. Continuing to submit non-resident tax forms would also indicate that you spend less than 183 days in Spain. You will also have to declare to your Spanish bank that you are non-resident every 2 years.

I would also ensure that your UK passport is stamped when you exit & enter Spain and that your UK & Spanish bank accounts reflect that you spend longer than 183 days outside Spain. Your passport & accounts should be sufficient to prove that you are not tax resident in Spain. You could hand your TIE card back but I would hang onto it in case your circumstances change. 
Spanish tax is paid 1 year in arrears and the hacienda are currently investigating tax from 4 years ago. Trying to renew your temporary TIE at the 5 year point could lead to some awkward questions if you are not tax resident by then.


----------



## simonkenyon68 (Apr 24, 2019)

Yes I was thinking about doing exactly that - signing off the padron should be relatively quick and is also easily reversible if circumstances change. We do the non-resident imputed income tax thing dilligently every year - I guess if one had a TIE/padron and was not submitting _any_ sort of tax return it would look pretty fishy from the hacienda's standpoint.


----------



## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

If you have recently applied for and have a TIE then you will most likely be judged to have made Spain you place of financial interest and could be pursued for tax on your whole UK income for the year you applied for your TIE ( Jan-Dec). I am being chased for tax for a whole year despite only being 90 days in spain, no residency applied for and all tax paid in UK. So you may flag up something: you have clearly intended to make Spain your base as you have the TIE. So you will probably be expected to make a tax return in Spain for either this whole year ( Jan- Dec 2021) or you should have done one for the previous year but you can not escape tax for the time you were here.


----------



## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

If the "OP" is submitting non-resident tax returns (modelo 210 I think) then he shouldn't need to submit a modelo 30 to "de-register" as a tax resident. That would ring all kinds of alarm bells I imagine.

But I agree, it looks very strange having a TIE while submitting non-resident tax returns. He is a resident as far as extranjería is concercned but not as far as hacienda is concerned. They don't seem to communicate much but I would be expecting soem questions at some point.

I returned to Spain in August 2016 and submitted non-resident tax returns during the whole tax year, starting as a tax resident only in 2017. This was on the advice of one of the big worldwide accountancy and tax advisory firms, one everybody has heard of. But I still think it was questionable advice and am expecting a letter to drop on my mat shortly!


----------



## simonkenyon68 (Apr 24, 2019)

kaipa said:


> If you have ever submitted a modelo 100 then ypu will be seen as a tax resident. I think the modelo 30 deregisters you as a tax resident. The padron wont really do alot for the Hacienda. You basically need to establish your residency in UK and be over 183 days there from the beginning of january 2022 and pay all taxes in UK.That is the only way you will be sure that hacienda wont pursue you. If you have recently applied for and have a TIE then you will most likely be judged to have made Spain you place of financial interest and could be pursued for tax on your whole UK income for the year you applied for your TIE ( Jan-Dec). I am being chased for tax for a whole year despite only being 90 days in spain, no residency applied for and all tax paid in UK. So you see how it might work for you.


I guess the difference in your situation, if I read it correctly above, is that you stayed on in Spain in the years following your initial 90 day stay and paid your taxes for those years, so what they're arguing is that your intention to stay permanently was demonstrated by this, and they're saying that this intent started the year before when you were there for 90 days, am I right? InOur situation's a bit different because we'd be going back and not spending so much time in Spain, visiting mainly for short breaks and paying taxes in the UK and clearly under the 183 all the time. We filed a Modelo 030 setting us up as nonresident when we bought our place a few years ago but have just filed the non-resident property tax return each year. It sounds, though, from your experience that if we do move to Spain for real and start paying taxes, we probably want to start in January!


----------



## simonkenyon68 (Apr 24, 2019)

Overandout said:


> If the "OP" is submitting non-resident tax returns (modelo 210 I think) then he shouldn't need to submit a modelo 30 to "de-register" as a tax resident. That would ring all kinds of alarm bells I imagine.
> 
> But I agree, it looks very strange having a TIE while submitting non-resident tax returns. He is a resident as far as extranjería is concercned but not as far as hacienda is concerned. They don't seem to communicate much but I would be expecting soem questions at some point.
> 
> I returned to Spain in August 2016 and submitted non-resident tax returns during the whole tax year, starting as a tax resident only in 2017. This was on the advice of one of the big worldwide accountancy and tax advisory firms, one everybody has heard of. But I still think it was questionable advice and am expecting a letter to drop on my mat shortly!


We submitted a Modelo 030 a couple of years back to get us into the tax system, but as non-residents - without the 030 we wouldn't have been able to submit our non-resident Modelo 210s. 

It's an interesting point though on the TIE, but this is presumably not a completely uncommon situation - for example people with golden visas who spend a few months of the summer in Spain (though perhaps having enough money to be eligible for a golden visa in itself would be enough to have the tax man sniffing around!)


----------



## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Your problem is that you shouldnt have registered for a TIE. I cant see why you would do that and then carry on paying non-resident taxes. It will look like you are hiding things. You are telling the tax man you dont live in spain and dont have spain as your central place of resident but then you are telling immigration you are a resident. You cant have it both ways and I imagine they will expect you to declare all your worldwide income for the year you received your TIEs. The fact that you have a property and register as non resident means that you could face investigation in the future. If you had no property in spain you might escape them.


----------



## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Overandout said:


> If the "OP" is submitting non-resident tax returns (modelo 210 I think) then he shouldn't need to submit a modelo 30 to "de-register" as a tax resident. That would ring all kinds of alarm bells I imagine.
> 
> But I agree, it looks very strange having a TIE while submitting non-resident tax returns. He is a resident as far as extranjería is concercned but not as far as hacienda is concerned. They don't seem to communicate much but I would be expecting soem questions at some point.
> 
> I returned to Spain in August 2016 and submitted non-resident tax returns during the whole tax year, starting as a tax resident only in 2017. This was on the advice of one of the big worldwide accountancy and tax advisory firms, one everybody has heard of. But I still think it was questionable advice and am expecting a letter to drop on my mat shortly!


Exactly the same as me except I was in October and I also delayed residency until start of Jan 2017. Also also I did this on the advice of a reputable tax firm dealing in UK expats moving to spain!!!


----------



## trotter58 (Feb 8, 2017)

kaipa said:


> Your problem is that you shouldnt have registered for a TIE. I cant see why you would do that and then carry on paying non-resident taxes. It will look like you are hiding things. You are telling the tax man you dont live in spain and dont have spain as your central place of resident but then you are telling immigration you are a resident. You cant have it both ways and I imagine they will expect you to declare all your worldwide income for the year you received your TIEs. The fact that you have a property and register as non resident means that you could face investigation in the future. If you had no property in spain you might escape them.


I'm assuming that the O/P registered his residency prior to the end of 2020 when it was a legal requirement to register your residency if staying longer than 90 days. From July 2020 the only residency document available to UK residents staying longer than 90 days was the new TIE. So, although resident, the O/P hasn't yet fulfilled the requirement to become tax resident. I'm also assuming that the O/P's family are not resident and that his economic activity is mainly in the UK.


----------



## simonkenyon68 (Apr 24, 2019)

Correct trotter58 - registered in August when it was clear we were going to be staying in Spain for more than three months. My job and main house are in the UK. So far this calendar year we have been roughly 50/50 between Spain and the UK (100 days total I think), and at the end of the month we are moving back to being more UK-based and popping out for the odd visit, pandemic permitting. No other family except my other half who has been here too and has dome the same thing - we are and will be well under the 183 for this year and were well under for last.


----------



## Melosine (Apr 28, 2013)

simonkenyon68 said:


> Yes I was thinking about doing exactly that - signing off the padron should be relatively quick and is also easily reversible if circumstances change. We do the non-resident imputed income tax thing dilligently every year - I guess if one had a TIE/padron and was not submitting _any_ sort of tax return it would look pretty fishy from the hacienda's standpoint.


When I queried if having a TIE and not paying tax in Spain would be of interest to the Hacienda was informed by many, some who I have since discovered dont actually reside in Spain, that my post was ridiculous and made little sense. 
Now it is clear by the number of Brit expats undergoing tax investigation, that checks are and will be made.


----------



## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

simonkenyon68 said:


> Correct trotter58 - registered in August when it was clear we were going to be staying in Spain for more than three months. My job and main house are in the UK. So far this calendar year we have been roughly 50/50 between Spain and the UK (100 days total I think), and at the end of the month we are moving back to being more UK-based and popping out for the odd visit, pandemic permitting. No other family except my other half who has been here too and has dome the same thing - we are and will be well under the 183 for this year and were well under for last.


I hope you are right as clearly it would justify my position with the tax man, however I dont think you can say your principal home is uk as you have cleary stated you are a spanish resident.


----------



## Roy C (Sep 29, 2012)

We were told we pay non resident tax for 2020 as i didn't become tax resident until October and you need to be six months in Spain to be paying tax for that year, which we weren't. We've been on the padron so we have to get a Certificate of Resixence from HMRC to prove UK tax residency since buying our Spanish house in 2017.


----------



## MataMata (Nov 30, 2008)

Signing on a padron is a legal declaration that you habitually live in Spain, that and obtaining a TIE are pretty much a slam dunk.

In no particular order factors determining tax residency include:

*Where is your principal residence
Where do you have a professional activity
Where is your centre of economic or “vital” interest
Place of your habitual abode
Joining a health system.*

All or any of the above can be weighed in reaching a decision about an individuals place of tax residency.

To be in a “vague residency position”, you would need to have a property in the UK and Spain where the utility bills are in your name and have equal vital interests in each, spend exactly the same amount of time in each country and be a national of both. If you are working you would need to be exercising your profession equally between the two countries. This is why very few people fall into the “vague” category and why and in certain circumstances it's possible to be deemed tax resident in Spain without ever having set foot in the country!


----------



## Roy C (Sep 29, 2012)

I was told i needed the Padron to marticulate my car over as many peeople have been told and done. With the joint tax agreement between Spain and the UK you only pay tax one of either country, which i have been doing with my pension and some P/T work i did, thst is why we have been advised to get the Certificate of Residence from HMRC.


----------



## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Roy C said:


> We were told we pay non resident tax for 2020 as i didn't become tax resident until October and you need to be six months in Spain to be paying tax for that year, which we weren't. We've been on the padron so we have to get a Certificate of Resixence from HMRC to prove UK tax residency since buying our Spanish house in 2017.




Same advise I was given by tax firm so not worried as that is their job whereas not sure people here on forum are professional bilingual tax advisors!![/QUOTE]


----------



## Roy C (Sep 29, 2012)

kaipa said:


> Same advise I was given by tax firm so not worried as that is their job whereas not sure people here on forum are professional bilingual tax advisors!!


[/QUOTE]

Yes, you always get the doomsdayer's no matter what. It's almost like some people revel in it.


----------



## Melosine (Apr 28, 2013)

Roy C said:


> I was told i needed the Padron to marticulate my car over as many peeople have been told and done. With the joint tax agreement between Spain and the UK you only pay tax one of either country, which i have been doing with my pension and some P/T work i did, thst is why we have been advised to get the Certificate of Residence from HMRC.


That is the complete opposite to what we were told by our lawyer in Huercal Overa, who left instructions NOT to sign on the padron until we had at least started the matriculation otherwise we would incur import duty.
How can any non Spanish lay person offer advice when Spanish lawyers advise us all so differenty


----------



## Roy C (Sep 29, 2012)

Melosine said:


> That is the complete opposite to what we were told by our lawyer in Huercal Overa, who left instructions NOT to sign on the padron until we had at least started the matriculation otherwise we would incur import duty.
> How can any non Spanish lay person offer advice when Spanish lawyers advise us all so differenty


Yes when you come over you tend to go on recommendations, you see on forums , FB etc We used our lawyer for most things but went with the gestor for the car, as local and we met with him and the official for to do what had to be done. We tried our lawyer for the tax but she gave us a recommendation for a tax advisor, whose advice we sre following and seems to be very good. But there you go, it's all trial and error until you establish your connections which we are now doing, including trades people.

I might add, the tax advisor was one of our first appointments on our permanent move last month, trying to keep everything above board as best we can, the way it should be.


----------



## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Roy C said:


> Yes when you come over you tend to go on recommendations, you see on forums , FB etc We used our lawyer for most things but went with the gestor for the car, as local and we met with him and the official for to do what had to be done. We tried our lawyer for the tax but she gave us a recommendation for a tax advisor, whose advice we sre following and seems to be very good. But there you go, it's all trial and error until you establish your connections which we are now doing, including trades people.
> 
> I might add, the tax advisor was one of our first appointments on our permanent move last month, trying to keep everything above board as best we can, the way it should be.


What you have done is perfectly right. The fact that people try to suggest that you have been given wrong advice and that you are either naive or deliberately trying to circumvent the law is just people trying to worry you. Many claim to be experts on Spain without having even learnt the language the laws are written in and that seems strange.


----------



## MataMata (Nov 30, 2008)

Roy C said:


> I was told i needed the Padron to marticulate my car over as many peeople have been told and done. With the joint tax agreement between Spain and the UK you only pay tax one of either country, which i have been doing with my pension and some P/T work i did, thst is why we have been advised to get the Certificate of Residence from HMRC.


I think you have your wires crossed.

Non residents are perfectly able to buy and register cars without a Padron which, to stress the point once again, legally is only available to genuine residents. Proof of address is what's required and that can be evidenced by say house deeds or utility bills. Officials, and yes lawyers, misunderstanding or misapplying rules does not make them right, we have two opposing lawyers 'opinions' in this thread already!

The Dual Tax Treaty does not mean that you can choose where to be taxed and if you are Spanish resident then HMRC cannot and will not give you a Certificate of Residence for the very simple and obvlous reason that you are not resident there!

As a Spanish resident your must declare your GROSS worldwide income and be taxed on that accordingly, if you've paid recoverable tax in UK then you need a Certificate of Residence from Spain which means completing the Spain Individual form, having it stamped by the Hacienda, then submitting it to HMRC who in due course will issue a refund.


----------



## Roy C (Sep 29, 2012)

MataMata said:


> I think you have your wires crossed.
> 
> Non residents are perfectly able to buy and register cars without a Padron which, to stress the point once again, legally is only available to genuine residents. Proof of address is what's required and that can be evidenced by say house deeds or utility bills. Officials, and yes lawyers, misunderstanding or misapplying rules does not make them right, we have two opposing lawyers 'opinions' in this thread already!
> 
> ...


Thanks for that


----------



## Melosine (Apr 28, 2013)

MataMata said:


> I think you have your wires crossed.
> 
> Non residents are perfectly able to buy and register cars without a Padron which, to stress the point once again, legally is only available to genuine residents. Proof of address is what's required and that can be evidenced by say house deeds or utility bills. Officials, and yes lawyers, misunderstanding or misapplying rules does not make them right, we have two opposing lawyers 'opinions' in this thread already!
> 
> ...


Everything you have written is exactly how things were done from the time we first started to become residents in 2006 .


----------

