# Advice



## linzid

Hi everyone

We are planning to relocate the whole family from Norfolk to somewhere around the Bavarian border with Austria nd was looking for some advice as to wether it is a good idea.

It would be my husband, our two young children and my parents who would be moving out.

My parents have sold their house ready for the move meaning we have around £300k worth of savings to buy a house etc.

Me and my husband currently work in the banking sector and at the moment don't really have any formal education past GCSE's. My husband is able to speak conversational German but nobody else in the family can.

The plan would be to rent somewhere for the first 6 month whilst we learn German and look for jobs (I hear the average wage is quite high in Bavaria!) and then with my parents savings buy a house and we would pay them a % of our earnings in the way of a mortgage.

I know this is a pretty big gamble but I really want to do this for the sake of our two young children who will have access to extremely high levels of education, plus the standard of living is much higher than in England.

What do you reckon? A gamble that could pay off? How easy will it be for us to find work? Is our savings enough? Will the local community accept us?

Thanks in advance

Linz


----------



## linzid

I meant to say the area between Austria and Czech border is where we are looking at


----------



## Tellus

linzid said:


> I meant to say the area between Austria and Czech border is where we are looking at


beautyful area with much wood around..very nice to live if you 're retired 
After WWII the whole area was marked by the iron curtain and after it 's fall tourism has become important - but it 's hard to live there. 
It 's called "Bayrisch Sibirien" Bavarian Sibiria, long winter, lots of snow and an idiom only aliens can understand..but the beer is very good.


----------



## ALKB

linzid said:


> Hi everyone
> 
> We are planning to relocate the whole family from Norfolk to somewhere around the Bavarian border with Austria nd was looking for some advice as to wether it is a good idea.
> 
> It would be my husband, our two young children and my parents who would be moving out.
> 
> My parents have sold their house ready for the move meaning we have around £300k worth of savings to buy a house etc.
> 
> Me and my husband currently work in the banking sector and at the moment don't really have any formal education past GCSE's. My husband is able to speak conversational German but nobody else in the family can.
> 
> The plan would be to rent somewhere for the first 6 month whilst we learn German and look for jobs (I hear the average wage is quite high in Bavaria!) and then with my parents savings buy a house and we would pay them a % of our earnings in the way of a mortgage.
> 
> I know this is a pretty big gamble but I really want to do this for the sake of our two young children who will have access to extremely high levels of education, plus the standard of living is much higher than in England.
> 
> What do you reckon? A gamble that could pay off? How easy will it be for us to find work? Is our savings enough? Will the local community accept us?
> 
> Thanks in advance
> 
> Linz


Keep in mind that 6 months might not be sufficient for adults to learn the language. Children are usually fluent within 3 months or so.

Are you planning to all not to work for 6 months? You have to register your residence within 90 days of arrival and from the date you register, you need to be health insured in Germany. Could be expensive if nobody is in work/eligible for unemployment benefits.

Also, salaries in Bavaria might be high but Germany is a country that loves certificates and documentation. Without any formal qualifications beyond GCSE's and with limited German, finding a job in a rural area might not be easy.


----------



## linzid

ALKB said:


> Keep in mind that 6 months might not be sufficient for adults to learn the language. Children are usually fluent within 3 months or so.
> 
> Are you planning to all not to work for 6 months? You have to register your residence within 90 days of arrival and from the date you register, you need to be health insured in Germany. Could be expensive if nobody is in work/eligible for unemployment benefits.
> 
> Also, salaries in Bavaria might be high but Germany is a country that loves certificates and documentation. Without any formal qualifications beyond GCSE's and with limited German, finding a job in a rural area might not be easy.


How much would health insurance be for the 6 of us? 4 adults and 2 children?


----------



## Nononymous

Not to be off-putting but moving to rural Bavaria with limited German and limited formal qualifications does seem a bit nuts. It might turn into a long, expensive, not particularly fun holiday. I wouldn't make the move until I had a very clear sense of my job prospects.


----------



## Nononymous

To expand on my somewhat discouraging answer...

Why rural Bavaria? Do you know the area well, have connections there? I have some limited/secondhand experience with places like this. The landscape is beautiful, the people friendly enough to visitors, but for a long-term stay the society can be very insular - if your family hasn't been in the village for at least four generations, you're still referred to as newcomers. Plus they'll likely speak a pretty thick dialect. 

Since you'll apparently need to support yourselves, have you done any serious research on what your job prospects might realistically be? Before selling the house and moving the entire extended family, a reconnaissance trip would be a wise investment. 

I would also do a little more research into the German education system. Though it can be very good, it's not necessarily the world's best, and quality varies widely between different Bundesländer. There's no guarantee that moving from England to rural Germany is going to automatically improve everyone's lot in life.


----------



## ALKB

linzid said:


> How much would health insurance be for the 6 of us? 4 adults and 2 children?


Absolutely no idea. A lot. 

Are your parents retired?

If you or your husband could get even a part time job that would automatically into the insurance system. The employer would pay half the cost of insurance and social security contributions and the non-working spouse and children would be insured for free along with the working spouse. This would not work for parents, though.

EDIT: As to the education system, the Bavarian and the Baden-Württemberg systems are said to have the highest standards in Germany. You can still be unlucky with a particular school or happen to get a not-so-great class-teacher.


----------



## Nononymous

ALKB said:


> EDIT: As to the education system, the Bavarian and the Baden-Württemberg systems are said to have the highest standards in Germany. You can still be unlucky with a particular school or happen to get a not-so-great class-teacher.


As long as you're not frightened by the crucifix in the classroom!


----------



## beppi

I agree with the above posters that your idea seems somewhat irrational and almost bound to fail.

AREA: It"s one of the least developed (except domestic and Czech tourism) areas in Bavaria with little economic activity (again except tourism) and only few people who speak English or even proper German. But houses are cheap (by Bavarian standards).

JOBS: Very few, due to the low economy (again except in tourism). Without proper education and good German skills, the only jobs you may get (after a long search) are those where you compete with Czech foreign workers and will be paid accordingly (think of minimum wage - if you're lucky).

HEALTH INSURANCE: If you bring the required paperwork from the NHS and thus are admitted into the public insurance scheme, you pay around EUR300/month for every adult as long as you don't work or are entitled to welfare. Minors are included free of charge in their parent's insurance and it is also possible to include your wife in yours if certain requirements are met.
For elders above 55 (possibly your parents) it is more difficult to join the public scheme. You need to consult a local insurance expert here! If they need to join the private insurance scheme, it will be much more expensive (depending on age and pre-existing conditions).


----------



## ALKB

Nononymous said:


> As long as you're not frightened by the crucifix in the classroom!


That might well happen.

Also, rural Bavaria is very traditional and very catholic in general.

Most of the south is. I once went to a boarding school in Baden-Württemberg for a trial period of a few weeks. My Berlin report cards did not mention religious education (if they take it at all, Berlin pupils get a seperate report card for that subject) and I had problems to no end trying to explain this and I swear they still looked at me suspiciously.


----------



## linzid

Hi guys 

thanks for all the info.

We are a fairly catholic family so the religion side of it is ok for us.

If we were to buy a house in the area and we didn't settle after say a year or two would we be able to sell it with ease?

In terms of jobs the plan was to commute to somewhere like Passau, Degendorf or Regensburg. Would this not be possible? What type of jobs are readily available there?


----------



## ALKB

linzid said:


> Hi guys
> 
> thanks for all the info.
> 
> We are a fairly catholic family so the religion side of it is ok for us.
> 
> If we were to buy a house in the area and we didn't settle after say a year or two would we be able to sell it with ease?
> 
> In terms of jobs the plan was to commute to somewhere like Passau, Degendorf or Regensburg. Would this not be possible? What type of jobs are readily available there?


Hm.

Even if you are not living in it, having a house in Germany might have some tax implications...

Nobody knows what the property market in this area will be like at some point in the future. 

In general, the German attitude towards selling property is quite different from the UK. If somebody n the UK says "We have put the house on the market", they will probably get reactions like "How exciting! Have you found something new? Have you had it valued? Will you make a profit?"

When somebody says this in Germany, most people will be concerned - "Are you alright? Are you in financial trouble? Are you ill? Do your children not want to take over the house? (How scandalous!)"

Property development doesn't really work as a cash machine in Germany because there is speculation tax and whatnot to pay. 

I don't think there is a translation for the concept of "property ladder".

Everybody in the small villages will be commuting to the next bigger towns. I doubt there are many jobs that are "readily available" to somebody with limited German and no transferable qualification. 

Supermarkets, fast food joints, cleaning, kitchen help comes to mind.

Both Regensburg and Passau are fairly touristic, so there might be something in hospitality...

How old are you?

Doing an apprenticeship (much more formal and with a much better reputation than UK apprenticeships) might do the trick. I ave an Australian friend who came to Berlin with her husband - no formal qualification but lots of experience in the insurance sector. Her German is quite good by now and she is in her early 30s. Still, after she got the right to work, she couldn't find a job. Now she is doing an apprenticeship as a plumber.


----------



## linzid

ALKB said:


> Hm.
> 
> Even if you are not living in it, having a house in Germany might have some tax implications...
> 
> Nobody knows what the property market in this area will be like at some point in the future.
> 
> In general, the German attitude towards selling property is quite different from the UK. If somebody n the UK says "We have put the house on the market", they will probably get reactions like "How exciting! Have you found something new? Have you had it valued? Will you make a profit?"
> 
> When somebody says this in Germany, most people will be concerned - "Are you alright? Are you in financial trouble? Are you ill? Do your children not want to take over the house? (How scandalous!)"
> 
> Property development doesn't really work as a cash machine in Germany because there is speculation tax and whatnot to pay.
> 
> I don't think there is a translation for the concept of "property ladder".
> 
> Everybody in the small villages will be commuting to the next bigger towns. I doubt there are many jobs that are "readily available" to somebody with limited German and no transferable qualification.
> 
> Supermarkets, fast food joints, cleaning, kitchen help comes to mind.
> 
> Both Regensburg and Passau are fairly touristic, so there might be something in hospitality...
> 
> How old are you?
> 
> Doing an apprenticeship (much more formal and with a much better reputation than UK apprenticeships) might do the trick. I ave an Australian friend who came to Berlin with her husband - no formal qualification but lots of experience in the insurance sector. Her German is quite good by now and she is in her early 30s. Still, after she got the right to work, she couldn't find a job. Now she is doing an apprenticeship as a plumber.


No banking jobs in those areas once we learn German?

How long do apprenticeships take to complete and how much do they cost?

In the areas i'm talking about how long will it take to get up to scratch with learning the language?


----------



## beppi

linzid said:


> If we were to buy a house in the area and we didn't settle after say a year or two would we be able to sell it with ease?
> Selling a house requires you to find a willing buyer. This, and the subsequent formalities, usually takes several months to a year in urban areas. It can be much longer in rural ones. You also lose around 10% of the property value in taxes and fees.
> 
> No banking jobs in those areas once we learn German?
> No banking jobs without completed apprenticeships, and they increasingly require university degrees even for counter staff. Also, fluent German is required for all customer-facing roles.
> 
> How long do apprenticeships take to complete and how much do they cost?
> An apprenticeship usually takes three years and costs nothing - you even get a small stipend while doing it.
> 
> In the areas i'm talking about how long will it take to get up to scratch with learning the language?


This depends on your language skills and abilities (not the area), between one and three years for basic skills, more to become fluent: My wife (who is a good learner) is currently starting to take on customer-facing roles after 6 years of working here.


----------



## linzid

Starting to get concerned about what sort of jobs we will able to get when working out there. How strict are they on qualifications? Do qualifications outweigh experience?


----------



## ALKB

linzid said:


> Starting to get concerned about what sort of jobs we will able to get when working out there. How strict are they on qualifications? Do qualifications outweigh experience?


Absolutely.

For a qualified position you need a formal qualification to start with. 

I am curious - why this area? Why such a rural, remote region?

Have you actually been there to visit?

Have you had a look at job search sites/newspaper ads to research jobs in the area?

It is true, you get a whole lot of house for your money there but there are reasons for that.


----------



## linzid

ALKB said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> For a qualified position you need a formal qualification to start with.
> 
> I am curious - why this area? Why such a rural, remote region?
> 
> Have you actually been there to visit?
> 
> Have you had a look at job search sites/newspaper ads to research jobs in the area?
> 
> It is true, you get a whole lot of house for your money there but there are reasons for that.


Yes visited it and it was beautiful, we want to be away from the hustle and bustle but be able to commute to a fair sized city to work. When we were there I didn't think it seemed that remote, 40min drive and you are in a large city.

The house us the other draw, we can get a huge detached house with a bit of land for around E120,000, in the UK a similar house would probably cost about £300k at least.

The main reason for the move though is our kids, I think the way of life in Germany coupled with the brilliant education system will give them a better start in life compared to the UK.


----------



## ALKB

linzid said:


> Yes visited it and it was beautiful, we want to be away from the hustle and bustle but be able to commute to a fair sized city to work. When we were there I didn't think it seemed that remote, 40min drive and you are in a large city.
> 
> The house us the other draw, we can get a huge detached house with a bit of land for around E120,000, in the UK a similar house would probably cost about £300k at least.
> 
> The main reason for the move though is our kids, I think the way of life in Germany coupled with the brilliant education system will give them a better start in life compared to the UK.


Fair enough 

To be very honest, I think the first few years will be tough, as tehy usually are when relocating to another country, although you are in quite a good position, being able to buy a house outright.

You really might want to look into at least one of you doing an apprenticeship (it's just not good at all to live in Germany long term and not have a formal profession) - it's basically a job that is paid at a lower rate because you receive training. You would be on a rotation through different departments for 2-3 years, and usually you do 4 days work 1 day vocational school per week or something like 9 months full time work, 3 months full time school. It ends with exams before the chamber of commerce and other industry representatives. Chances to get a professional job with the same company after completing your training are quite good right now. It would also take care of the health insurance problem.

The other partner might have to do a not-so-nice job meanwhile if you don't want to dig into your savings for living expenses.

You could also try to get TEFL or better even CELTA qualifications before moving and teach English either self-employed or at a language school. Unfortunately this seems to be what everybody is doing and there might or might not be enough demand for this to make a living.

What about your parents? Are they retired? Are they planning on working in Germany?

BTW, the region gets a lot of snow, so a 40 minute commute might be wishful thinking in winter.


----------



## linzid

ALKB said:


> Fair enough
> 
> To be very honest, I think the first few years will be tough, as tehy usually are when relocating to another country, although you are in quite a good position, being able to buy a house outright.
> 
> You really might want to look into at least one of you doing an apprenticeship (it's just not good at all to live in Germany long term and not have a formal profession) - it's basically a job that is paid at a lower rate because you receive training. You would be on a rotation through different departments for 2-3 years, and usually you do 4 days work 1 day vocational school per week or something like 9 months full time work, 3 months full time school. It ends with exams before the chamber of commerce and other industry representatives. Chances to get a professional job with the same company after completing your training are quite good right now. It would also take care of the health insurance problem.
> 
> The other partner might have to do a not-so-nice job meanwhile if you don't want to dig into your savings for living expenses.
> 
> You could also try to get TEFL or better even CELTA qualifications before moving and teach English either self-employed or at a language school. Unfortunately this seems to be what everybody is doing and there might or might not be enough demand for this to make a living.
> 
> What about your parents? Are they retired? Are they planning on working in Germany?
> 
> BTW, the region gets a lot of snow, so a 40 minute commute might be wishful thinking in winter.


To take up one of these apprenticeships would you need to be fluent in German or would conversational to moderate German be enough?

What sort of money would I be looking at as a wage after successfully completing an apprenticeship?

Parents are retired and have their savings to live off


----------



## linzid

Also are these apprenticeships available in the cities in the area we are looking at?

Really appreciate all the help


----------



## ALKB

linzid said:


> Also are these apprenticeships available in the cities in the area we are looking at?
> 
> Really appreciate all the help


Apprenticeships are available nearly anywhere.

You apply directly to companies offering an "Ausbildung" or "Lehrstelle". It depends of course what kind of profession you are looking for. 

You can find vacancies in newspapers, online, or you can simply call businesses and ask whether they offer apprenticeships.

You would need to get your German language skills to at least conversational standard and keep working on them diligently - vocational school and all exams are in German.

Have a look here:

Bundesagentur für Arbeit's JOBBÖRSE - Germany's largest online job portal

(Also a good place to start researching regular jobs in the area.)


----------



## linzid

ALKB said:


> Apprenticeships are available nearly anywhere.
> 
> You apply directly to companies offering an "Ausbildung" or "Lehrstelle". It depends of course what kind of profession you are looking for.
> 
> You can find vacancies in newspapers, online, or you can simply call businesses and ask whether they offer apprenticeships.
> 
> You would need to get your German language skills to at least conversational standard and keep working on them diligently - vocational school and all exams are in German.
> 
> Have a look here:
> 
> Bundesagentur für Arbeit's JOBBÖRSE - Germany's largest online job portal
> 
> (Also a good place to start researching regular jobs in the area.)


So say over a 3 year period on one of these apprenticeships how much would I earn a month?

Are they easy enough to get on or are German citizens preferred?

Thanks again for the help


----------



## Nononymous

linzid said:


> Starting to get concerned about what sort of jobs we will able to get when working out there. How strict are they on qualifications? Do qualifications outweigh experience?


I would think that "starting to get concerned" is probably a good first step. I wouldn't consider uprooting the family until I'd made a few visits and had a very good idea what my job prospects were - which could be nil before you invest several years in mastering the language then an apprenticeship to learn the idiosyncracies of the German banking system, should you go that route (I believe that the pay is quite low for an apprentice).


----------



## ALKB

linzid said:


> So say over a 3 year period on one of these apprenticeships how much would I earn a month?
> 
> Are they easy enough to get on or are German citizens preferred?
> 
> Thanks again for the help


That depends on the profession you are training for. Also the region in Germany and whether your employer is tariff-bound or not.

If you go for a bank apprenticeship (very competitive, needs excellent German):

1. Year
766-830 Euro

2. Year
826-880 Euro

3. Year
885-950 Euro

Die 10 bestbezahlten Ausbildungsberufe

Here an overview from the chamber of commerce in Munich:

https://www.muenchen.ihk.de/de/bildung/Anhaenge/BiBB-Tarife-2010.pdf

In general, German citizens are preferred for just about anything (like in most countries native speakers would be preferred) but in rural areas, a lot of companies are desperately looking for apprentices nowadays, especially reliable ones. I have heard of Hotels recruiting apprentices from Kenia (!!) for their chef apprentice vacancies and a lot of Spanish and Portoguese people are now getting their qualifications in Germany, so there must be a way.

The question is, whether the job you want is one that is a) available in your area and b) not many German school leavers/people trying for a career change are eager to apply for the specific profession.

Personally, I would go to the area for a month (or maybe two weeks in summer and two weeks in winter?), get a holiday let and try to imitate a non-holiday lifestyle. Including enquiring about job opportunities. If you then still like the idea of moving there, it's a much better starting point for such a long term project.


----------



## Nononymous

linzid said:


> The main reason for the move though is our kids, I think the way of life in Germany coupled with the brilliant education system will give them a better start in life compared to the UK.


I would do a lot more research on this question. I wouldn't necessarily describe the German education system as "brilliant" - on what basis do you make that claim? Also, growing up in rural Bayern may or may not provide an advantage in life.

Seeing somewhere lovely while on holiday, and noticing that the houses are cheaper than at home, isn't the worst reason to emigrate, but without a solid command of the language, a realistic prospect of decent work, and a thorough understanding of the culture you are about to enter, you run the risk of the move becoming an expensive disaster for all concerned. 

Your parents would need to look very seriously at the health insurance question. I believe that UK pensioners can enter state schemes in some EU countries, but I don't know if that includes Germany with it's curious public-private system.


----------



## James3214

I admire your plan, but I think it could turn into a disaster. It's hard enough moving to a new country when you have a job offer and are single and don't speak the language but you have no jobs to go to and a family including your parents to think about.
It can be done but I don't think that is the right area to move to. It may look nice in the short summer season but those houses are cheap for a reason. Many people don't or can't live there because there are little or no jobs there and when there are the salaries are very low. 
I think it will be especially hard on your parents, and if none of you speak German you could struggle doing the everyday things like shopping, going to the dentist, dealing with the bureaucracy, etc. 
Also with families you tend to find that if just one person doesn't like the move then it could cause all sorts of problems with those that do.
I am also not sure about the transport connections back to the UK in that area as well. You will need good connections to get back to the UK and in order to keep in contact with your UK family and friends.
I would choose an area where there are more jobs near the bigger cities eg. Frankfurt (more banking jobs) and live outside the Rhein Main area (in the Rhine valley where cheaper properties can be found) Also there are many jobs in the Ruhr area up near Cologne and Dusseldorf. Also you have Frankfurt Hahn airport which is the Ryanair connection back to Stansted.
It's not easy I know, but it can be done and lots have succeeded in the past (most with a lot less resources than you!)
Good luck though!


----------



## linzid

Nowhere online does it say ?300 per adult per month. Seems to be a lot cheaper than that.

Also doesn't my parents insurance get deduced from their UK pension? That's what it says online


----------



## linzid

In the winter months how long would a commute take from say Freyung to Passau? Google says 40mins.


----------



## ALKB

linzid said:


> Nowhere online does it say ?300 per adult per month. Seems to be a lot cheaper than that.
> 
> Also doesn't my parents insurance get deduced from their UK pension? That's what it says online


It seems like they could still get an S1:

Early retirees rule change - healthcare abroad - NHS Choices

In any case, I'd check with the German health insurance of your choice how they handle this and how much it will cost before you move.

Also interesting:

Moving abroad - Healthcare abroad - NHS Choices


----------



## beppi

linzid said:


> Nowhere online does it say ?300 per adult per month. Seems to be a lot cheaper than that.


Sorry, I googled it and my information was incorrect:
As self employed or non-working (without claim for social benefits) person in the German publich health insurance, you pay approx. 17% of the actual income (incl. rent, capital returns, etc.), but a minimum income of approx. €950/month and a maximum of €4100/month is assumed - thus you effectively pay €160 - 700/month as premium.
If you are employed, there is no minimum income and the company pays roughly half of the premium.
If you receive social benefits, you pay nothing.


----------



## James3214

linzid said:


> In the winter months how long would a commute take from say Freyung to Passau? Google says 40mins.



Takes about an hour by bus so I guess by car it's a lot quicker 30-40 mins?


----------

