# Investing in Spain



## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

As many are now residents in Spain, having discussed the topic of asset declaration, it is clear that many expats have their cash in British banks. The obvious reasons are clear. They feel their money is safer left there. I am no different in that respect. However, since moving to Spain I have invested in a Spanish company by buying shares. Is there an argument that we has fairly well off residents should be investing more into the Spanish economy. This is my new country and I want it to prosper. I have another company in Spain that I am looking to invest.
In general, buying good quality shares with dividends gives a better return than simply banking your money, and there is less tax to pay.
I came to Spain to find quality of life. I have come to love the country and the people, I want to play my part in the recovery of the country.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

I admire the sentiment, to a large extent my family's future depends on a strong Spanish economy. I'd love to invest in Spain, but I'm afraid I've seen enough corruption with shareholders being wiped out (Bankia anyone?) to buy Spanish equities right now. I would really like to invest in up and coming Spanish companies, but as long as the Spanish authorities continue to take the attitude that private companies are there to serve/finance the state rather than the other way round, I'll place my money elsewhere.


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## Guest (May 30, 2013)

Aron said:


> I came to Spain to find quality of life. I have come to love the country and the people, I want to play my part in the recovery of the country.


I would only add that investments in green energy companies would not only benefit the spanish economy, but also benefit Spain's environment, an element which will enhance and protect the quality of life you mention.


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

Chopera said:


> I admire the sentiment, to a large extent my family's future depends on a strong Spanish economy. I'd love to invest in Spain, but I'm afraid I've seen enough corruption with shareholders being wiped out (Bankia anyone?) to buy Spanish equities right now. I would really like to invest in up and coming Spanish companies, but as long as the Spanish authorities continue to take the attitude that private companies are there to serve/finance the state rather than the other way round, I'll place my money elsewhere.


You mentioned one bank, yet I could give you worse scenarios in the US and UK, yet you still intend on helping the British economy. I'm not saying you pile in your resources, I'm saying in some small way we could possibly do more to investing into a country,especially as we are guests there.
I asked the question because it is an interesting debating point.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Aron said:


> You mentioned one bank, yet I could give you worse scenarios in the US and UK, yet you still intend on helping the British economy. I'm not saying you pile in your resources, I'm saying in some small way we could possibly do more to investing into a country,especially as we are guests there.
> I asked the question because it is an interesting debating point.


I wouldn't call myself a guest here. I work in Spain (mainly with Spanish banks as it happens) pay my taxes, buy Spanish products, etc. Pretty much everything I spend gets spent in the Spanish economy. I've spent roughly half my working life in Spain, probably been more "economically active" here than in the UK.

However when it comes to investing sentiment goes out the window. I want the best return with the lowest risk, and if Spain wants me to invest in Spanish companies then it has to provide that environment. Part of the reason Spain finds itself in such a mess is precisely because it has received investment regardless of whether it is doing things right or not. That's not to say Spain does everything wrong. I've worked for Spanish start-ups that have done plenty of things really well, but the Spanish government needs to do a lot more to encourage business in general before it gets any more of my money.


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

Chopera said:


> I wouldn't call myself a guest here. I work in Spain (mainly with Spanish banks as it happens) pay my taxes, buy Spanish products, etc. Pretty much everything I spend gets spent in the Spanish economy. I've spent roughly half my working life in Spain, probably been more "economically active" here than in the UK.
> 
> However when it comes to investing sentiment goes out the window. I want the best return with the lowest risk, and if Spain wants me to invest in Spanish companies then it has to provide that environment. Part of the reason Spain finds itself in such a mess is precisely because it has received investment regardless of whether it is doing things right or not. That's not to say Spain does everything wrong. I've worked for Spanish start-ups that have done plenty of things really well, but the Spanish government needs to do a lot more to encourage business in general before it gets any more of my money.


My apologies, not realising you are working over here. I wouldn't disagree with your comments, other than to say Spain has been hit harder through the recession because of the property bubble bursting. However, I am a guest here as I am retired as are most of the expat community that I know.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Aron said:


> My apologies, not realising you are working over here. I wouldn't disagree with your comments, other than to say Spain has been hit harder through the recession because of the property bubble bursting. However, I am a guest here as I am retired as are most of the expat community that I know.


No problem - my fault for being rude and not introducing myself (might get round to it some time). I don't want to discourage people's attitude towards Spain, and Spanish business, because the potential here is huge. It is so frustrating though - the labour laws are still way too strong for example, the way autonomos are taxed is beyond a joke, the red tape, the attitude towards companies that do do well, the way banks treat people and businesses, state backed monopolies like bloody Telefonica, etc.

Spanish people are highly educated, hard working (given the right environment) and they don't demand high wages. Spain could be so much better but the government just won't let it. Hopefully the situation with the euro will force their hand and make them do the necessary reforms - and that's the point when I'll start investing my money in Spanish companies (provided I'm not conpletely broke by then!)


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Regarding investments, I use a financial advisor, at the moment he is advising not to invest anywhere in the Euro zone. I have taken his advice and my European investments are now elsewhere.


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## Guest (May 30, 2013)

I like this thread. It is revealing to read both of you... revealing in the sense of wanting to support the culture / people / country where we live and meeting the hard realities of how difficult an endeavor it is investment wise.

So, are there sectors of the economy that actually benefit the country where one can invest and not lose one's shirt? I know that asking about sectors is a bit broad... I am just at a loss how to put it.

Another way of looking at supporting Spain might be in what investments one can divest. There are after all some businesses here that are fairly destructive. I am thinking along the lines of how in South Africa the international movement to divest in companies supporting Apartheid were so successful in initially changing the politics of the country.


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

*Guest*



Aron said:


> My apologies, not realising you are working over here. I wouldn't disagree with your comments, other than to say Spain has been hit harder through the recession because of the property bubble bursting. However, I am a guest here as I am retired as are most of the expat community that I know.


I am retired and definitely don't regard myself as a guest, as I pay taxes and contribute to the economy. I think the Spanish taxation system is a nightmare and will be one of the main causes for ex pats leaving the country. The new assets law has, by the way it's been formulated, frightened off people who otherwise would have done the right thing and registered on the system. I'll have the effect of penalising decent people, while offenders get off scot free.Black money, corruption, early retirement and generous pensions have all led to Spain's downfall. Who would want to throw good money after bad?


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

extranjero said:


> I am retired and definitely don't regard myself as a guest, as I pay taxes and contribute to the economy. I think the Spanish taxation system is a nightmare and will be one of the main causes for ex pats leaving the country. The new assets law has, by the way it's been formulated, frightened off people who otherwise would have done the right thing and registered on the system. I'll have the effect of penalising decent people, while offenders get off scot free.Black money, corruption, early retirement and generous pensions have all led to Spain's downfall. Who would want to throw good money after bad?


I am retired too, pay all my taxes as required, but I am a British citizen and an immigrant in Spain and whether I like it or not, I am a guest in this country.
Out of all the expats I know, none are leaving because of the asset declaration. Quite the contrary, we have two new British families in our village.


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## Turtles (Jan 9, 2011)

Guests in my house get free board and lodging. I pay to live in Spain.


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

*guests*



Turtles said:


> Guests in my house get free board and lodging. I pay to live in Spain.


If people wanted to stay in my house for free, I would direct them to the nearest hotel!


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

https://www.gov.uk/government/world-location-news/take-a-look-at-catalonia


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

mysticsmick said:


> I like this thread. It is revealing to read both of you... revealing in the sense of wanting to support the culture / people / country where we live and meeting the hard realities of how difficult an endeavor it is investment wise.
> 
> So, are there sectors of the economy that actually benefit the country where one can invest and not lose one's shirt? I know that asking about sectors is a bit broad... I am just at a loss how to put it.
> 
> Another way of looking at supporting Spain might be in what investments one can divest. There are after all some businesses here that are fairly destructive. I am thinking along the lines of how in South Africa the international movement to divest in companies supporting Apartheid were so successful in initially changing the politics of the country.


Renewable energy is something to invest in, but Spain has it's entrepreneurs, the government needs to recognise this and give them any assistance they can. I do know of British people coming to Spain and starting a business. Provided you can prove you will employ Spanish workers, there are grants available. Locally there are shops opening. These are often young Spaniards trying to get a foothold in business, but like everywhere, the supermarkets corner the business. That is another way people can help. Shop locally and give these people the chance to invest in their future. Look at the football club in the UK. Wigan, the owner Dave Whelan broke his leg. The £400 compensation he received he started a market stall. He eventually went on to own a chain of supermarkets. 
I will say this, the future is bleak in the short term, but then it's bleak everywhere. Politicians can talk about green shoots appearing in the economy, only then to be told it isn't as good as they first thought. I don't see an upturn, but I do see people trying and some succeeding.


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

Chopera said:


> I wouldn't call myself a guest here. I work in Spain (mainly with Spanish banks as it happens) pay my taxes, buy Spanish products, etc. Pretty much everything I spend gets spent in the Spanish economy. I've spent roughly half my working life in Spain, probably been more "economically active" here than in the UK.
> 
> However when it comes to investing sentiment goes out the window. I want the best return with the lowest risk, and if Spain wants me to invest in Spanish companies then it has to provide that environment. Part of the reason Spain finds itself in such a mess is precisely because it has received investment regardless of whether it is doing things right or not. That's not to say Spain does everything wrong. I've worked for Spanish start-ups that have done plenty of things really well, but the Spanish government needs to do a lot more to encourage business in general before it gets any more of my money.


Please take a look in this link of the british embassy in Spain
https://www.gov.uk/government/world-location-news/take-a-look-at-catalonia


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

mickbcn said:


> Please take a look in this link of the british embassy in Spain
> https://www.gov.uk/government/world-location-news/take-a-look-at-catalonia


Cataluña will be one of the best places to look for opportunities when the time comes. Personally I want to see some more real reforms first though (including constitutional ones). I have no doubt that in the mean time some Catalan companies will do well and I will miss opportunities, but that's my loss.


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

Chopera said:


> Cataluña will be one of the best places to look for opportunities when the time comes. Personally I want to see some more real reforms first though (including constitutional ones). I have no doubt that in the mean time some Catalan companies will do well and I will miss opportunities, but that's my loss.


Next year will be our independence..


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

mickbcn said:


> Next year will be our independence..


Get to the end of the queue, we are first.................................


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

mickbcn said:


> Next year will be our independence..


Planning on leaving the euro then?


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

mickbcn said:


> Next year will be our independence..


I was asking about investing in Spain, not de-investing.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Chopera said:


> Planning on leaving the euro then?



Too true!!


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

Aron said:


> I was asking about investing in Spain, not de-investing.


Hahahahaha


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

Chopera said:


> Planning on leaving the euro then?


Maybe will be a good idea.. some european countries are using the euro Andorra and others ... maybe Spain will abandone the euro very soon.before Catalonia..... maybe the best option for Spain ..and Catalonia is return to peseta and devaluate one 20% Jonathan Tepper one american economist say this last year he that this is the only solution for Spain for finnish the crisis.


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## webmarcos (Dec 25, 2012)

Hepa said:


> Regarding investments, I use a financial advisor, at the moment he is advising not to invest anywhere in the Euro zone. I have taken his advice and my European investments are now elsewhere.


Problem is, that move alone "could" have already cost you 15%. I can't link to it myself as I've reached the view limit, but according to the DT, the new Governor of the BOE will aim to lower sterling by 15%

Of course, we have no real idea what is going to happen. Even experienced currency traders can mess up. And if the UK does try and devalue, chances are that other countries will try a similar trick.


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## webmarcos (Dec 25, 2012)

Maybe it's just me, but I can't see Spain (under normal conditions) choosing to leave the Euro. Would the average fulano want to see the politicians or bankers in Madrid or Barcelona in charge of the printing presses??


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

mickbcn said:


> Maybe will be a good idea.. some european countries are using the euro Andorra and others ... maybe Spain will abandone the euro very soon.before Catalonia..... maybe the best option for Spain ..and Catalonia is return to peseta and devaluate one 20% Jonathan Tepper one american economist say this last year he that this is the only solution for Spain for finnish the crisis.


Spain won't leave the euro in IMO. If Cataluña becomes independent then it will have to leave the euro, and the EU, before applying to join. I don't see that as a disaster for Cataluña. In fact it could be an easy get out - Cataluña could initially devalue her own currency to help deal with her debts. Thereafter it would be an attractive place to invest.


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## doro (Aug 1, 2010)

mickbcn said:


> Maybe will be a good idea.. some european countries are using the euro Andorra and others ... maybe Spain will abandone the euro very soon.before Catalonia..... maybe the best option for Spain ..and Catalonia is return to peseta and devaluate one 20% Jonathan Tepper one american economist say this last year he that this is the only solution for Spain for finnish the crisis.


How about:
- fix corruption
- fix economic laws to let business grow
- fix bureaucracy

If you trade in Euro, pesetas, gold or silver does not matter.. is just a currency.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

doro said:


> How about:
> - fix corruption
> - fix economic laws to let business grow
> - fix bureaucracy
> ...


Precisely. Currency devaluations are the classic way of avoiding these issues.


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

mickbcn said:


> Maybe will be a good idea.. some european countries are using the euro Andorra and others ... maybe Spain will abandone the euro very soon.before Catalonia..... maybe the best option for Spain ..and Catalonia is return to peseta and devaluate one 20% Jonathan Tepper one american economist say this last year he that this is the only solution for Spain for finnish the crisis.


By reverting to a previous currency will devalue the currency and cause inflation. By reverting, the present generation and probably the older generation will have to come to terms with working it out. A good benchmark was the UK. Ted Heath's government changed UK sterling currency into decimal. That change caused massive inflation. Nothing was rounded down, everything was rounded up. The housing market took off causing the worst inflation.

The Spanish people deserve prosperity. Political theories are jus that, theories. Every government in opposition tells the people what they can or will do to improve the country, but once in power, we all know that reality is different than the theory.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Aron said:


> By reverting to a previous currency will devalue the currency and cause inflation. By reverting, the present generation and probably the older generation will have to come to terms with working it out. A good benchmark was the UK. Ted Heath's government changed UK sterling currency into decimal. That change caused massive inflation. Nothing was rounded down, everything was rounded up. The housing market took off causing the worst inflation.
> 
> The Spanish people deserve prosperity. Political theories are jus that, theories. Every government in opposition tells the people what they can or will do to improve the country, but once in power, we all know that reality is different than the theory.


No they could introduce the new currency on parity with the euro, and then let prices adjust thereafter. There would be no need for people to do any mental arithmetic.


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

Chopera said:


> No they could introduce the new currency on parity with the euro, and then let prices adjust thereafter. There would be no need for people to do any mental arithmetic.


Once again, in theory it sounds feasible, but in reality it will cause inflation. The UK kept the pound and decimimalisation should have had parity with the Sterling, but it just caused inflation. I was in business then in the food industry. I saw first hand what it did to food prices. The cost of a new currency would be enormous. Every business would have to change their systems to the new currency as well as government departments. I don't think Spain can afford that. 

Having said all of that, I don't believe Spain will exit the Euro. Many locals I know have no desire to change and the government.

Everywhere in Europe is in a mess. We never learn from history. Boom always leads to bust, it always has and history will show you that.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Aron said:


> Once again, in theory it sounds feasible, but in reality it will cause inflation. The UK kept the pound and decimimalisation should have had parity with the Sterling, but it just caused inflation. I was in business then in the food industry. I saw first hand what it did to food prices. The cost of a new currency would be enormous. Every business would have to change their systems to the new currency as well as government departments. I don't think Spain can afford that.
> 
> Having said all of that, I don't believe Spain will exit the Euro. Many locals I know have no desire to change and the government.
> 
> Everywhere in Europe is in a mess. We never learn from history. Boom always leads to bust, it always has and history will show you that.


If they introduced the new currency at parity with the euro (which is logical) there would not have to be any arithmetic conversion for domestic prices previously marked in euros. All they'd have to do is swap the € symbol for the new currency symbol. Of course the values of the euro and the new currency would immediately diverge on the foreign exchanges, so there would have to be conversion when trading with external goods priced in euros, as they currently do with goods priced in pounds for example, but that's about it.

Of course there would be a cost associated with this, but it wouldn't be like the decimalisation of the pound or the introduction of the euro. There had to be a domestic conversion with the decimal pound because it used a different numerical system to what went previously, and the euro couldn't be introduced at parity with the old peseta so again there had to be a domestic price conversion. Neither of these cases would apply to the new currency unless for some bizarre reason they decided to make the new currency hexadecimal or whatever, or introduced it at non-parity with the euro.


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

Chopera said:


> If they introduced the new currency at parity with the euro (which is logical) there would not have to be any arithmetic conversion for domestic prices previously marked in euros. All they'd have to do is swap the € symbol for the new currency symbol. Of course the values of the euro and the new currency would immediately diverge on the foreign exchanges, so there would have to be conversion when trading with external goods priced in euros, as they currently do with goods priced in pounds for example, but that's about it.
> 
> Of course there would be a cost associated with this, but it wouldn't be like the decimalisation of the pound or the introduction of the euro. There had to be a domestic conversion with the decimal pound because it used a different numerical system to what went previously, and the euro couldn't be introduced at parity with the old peseta so again there had to be a domestic price conversion. Neither of these cases would apply to the new currency unless for some bizarre reason they decided to make the new currency hexadecimal or whatever, or introduced it at non-parity with the euro.


Well, I think the euro is going to remain this country's currency. We could debate this point forever, but it is not In the interest of Spain in my view, but saying that, I still respect your point of view.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Aron said:


> Well, I think the euro is going to remain this country's currency. We could debate this point forever, but it is not In the interest of Spain in my view, but saying that, I still respect your point of view.


I'm not saying it's in the interest of Spain to leave the euro, and there are other factors that make it very difficult to leave (how to avoid bank runs for example). It's just that I don't think the technicalities of converting prices between old and new currencies would be an issue in this particular case.


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## referenjob (May 30, 2013)

thank you in trust in my country. I really admired this affair. I also invest in shares of spanish companies, and of course you can get more yield in your investement either shares quotation or dividends.

All my best in your investments


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## el pescador (Mar 14, 2013)

One of my holdings was Santander.
Waiting for the usual drop and should go in again before ex dividend date.

They are paying around 10% per annum

Obviously a slight risk as they are a Spanish bank but that return is good


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

el pescador said:


> One of my holdings was Santander.
> Waiting for the usual drop and should go in again before ex dividend date.
> 
> They are paying around 10% per annum
> ...


That is a very good return. Must check that one out. Thanks


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## Bemused (Jun 1, 2013)

Wow, there certainly is a lot of negativity about. Why is any expat staying in Spain.? The responses and comments mention corruption, the difficulty of being able to run a small business or start a new one. Unemployment and the ability to get a job or the financial advice to not invest a cent in the EU. I have two properties in France that are rented. The one has had the same tenant for 15 years and I get an income of 12,500 Euros a year out of them. I mentioned in another thread about buying a little business over there that has been running succesfully for the past 9 years. The responses have been so cautionary that I am rethinking the Spanish idea completely. I am surprised there are any expats left in Spain as it would seem very risky to try and live there unless you have a decent income of around 25,000 Euro's per year. I'm glean that figure from comments that the minimum income required would be the same in Euro's as in Pounds Sterling. (the number and not the value)

Surely there are some positive angles to moving to Spain and starting up or buying a decent business over there? Not that I am going down that road any longer but just wondering if there isn't a little ray of sunshine somewhere out there>


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

Bemused said:


> Wow, there certainly is a lot of negativity about. Why is any expat staying in Spain.? The responses and comments mention corruption, the difficulty of being able to run a small business or start a new one. Unemployment and the ability to get a job or the financial advice to not invest a cent in the EU. I have two properties in France that are rented. The one has had the same tenant for 15 years and I get an income of 12,500 Euros a year out of them. I mentioned in another thread about buying a little business over there that has been running succesfully for the past 9 years. The responses have been so cautionary that I am rethinking the Spanish idea completely. I am surprised there are any expats left in Spain as it would seem very risky to try and live there unless you have a decent income of around 25,000 Euro's per year. I'm glean that figure from comments that the minimum income required would be the same in Euro's as in Pounds Sterling. (the number and not the value)
> 
> Surely there are some positive angles to moving to Spain and starting up or buying a decent business over there? Not that I am going down that road any longer but just wondering if there isn't a little ray of sunshine somewhere out there>


With respect, I asked the original thread, I mentioned there that I had invested in Spain. There was no negativity from what I said. I just mentioned that there were possibly opportunities and the need for entrepreneurs to help this great country. Yes, some answers have been negative, but there again so is your reply.
I don't have an income anywhere near what you have mentioned. In my village there several Brits who run successful businesses. 
What is risky about living in a country where you can find quality of life.

That thread you asked, I personally wished you the best of luck, I even mentioned the need for young talent to open businesses in Spain, but I pointed out that working for yourself is damned hard work. I pointed out a few pitfalls and advised you to talk to someone who understands company law, that surely is positive advice. Talking of company law, I failed to mention all the insurance you need to take out such as liability insurance. If you've never run a business then it can be a mid boggling experience.


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## Bemused (Jun 1, 2013)

Thanks for the response. Yes, I am aware of the effort required to run your own business as I have done so for many years in various parts of the world. I have been in the service station, motor car servicing, petrol fields as well as the retail trade. (Lighting) I've always made a profit. Some better than others. So, no, I'm not complaining about any one or in particular your responses. I am talking generally. If one reads through the various threads on people wanting to invest, work, run a business, etc in Spain, there are a large number of negative responses from a varied group of people. My query is, why? There appears to be a lot of negativity apposed to positivity. I would have thought that if things were so lousy there that a lot more expats would be leaving the country. That is all. Purely an observation and none directed at any particular individual.


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

Bemused said:


> Thanks for the response. Yes, I am aware of the effort required to run your own business as I have done so for many years in various parts of the world. I have been in the service station, motor car servicing, petrol fields as well as the retail trade. (Lighting) I've always made a profit. Some better than others. So, no, I'm not complaining about any one or in particular your responses. I am talking generally. If one reads through the various threads on people wanting to invest, work, run a business, etc in Spain, there are a large number of negative responses from a varied group of people. My query is, why? There appears to be a lot of negativity apposed to positivity. I would have thought that if things were so lousy there that a lot more expats would be leaving the country. That is all. Purely an observation and none directed at any particular individual.


Well yes, people want a lifestyle in the sun, they want an easy life, they complain about the laws, but this is Spain. You have to accept it for what it is. If I truly felt as bad as many make out, I would take the positive step and go home, but I love this country and most things about it.
Don't ever give up because people are negative, if you want to do something then do it. But saying that, I read some of the things people said about running a business out here. I. Think it was Soulboy who he said if you are here for long enough you will see all the people come and go. I have personal friends who ran a bar in Benamadena. They lasted just 6 months, yet I know others out here who have run bars for mote years than I care to remember.
I once helped to run a service station. People always said how easy it looked, all that money we got for fuel, but they only say negative comments because they know nothing about it. It was damned hard work with long hours.
My original thread was about investing in this country, the country you want to enjoy the lifestyle!


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Bemused said:


> Thanks for the response. Yes, I am aware of the effort required to run your own business as I have done so for many years in various parts of the world. I have been in the service station, motor car servicing, petrol fields as well as the retail trade. (Lighting) I've always made a profit. Some better than others. So, no, I'm not complaining about any one or in particular your responses. I am talking generally. If one reads through the various threads on people wanting to invest, work, run a business, etc in Spain, there are a large number of negative responses from a varied group of people. My query is, why? There appears to be a lot of negativity apposed to positivity. I would have thought that if things were so lousy there that a lot more expats would be leaving the country. That is all. Purely an observation and none directed at any particular individual.


37% unemployment, 20% reduction in population, empty bars/restaurants, sales in supermarkets down 20%, a drastic reduction in the number of tourists. Few can afford to spend. Businesses here are openly forecasting closure within a year , others have already closed, there are few new ones opening. Quite simply people are skint and cannot afford luxuries, so few are spending.

A boost in tourism would help, however the Spanish government have reduced subsidies for the ferries, hence less crossings, so the tourists go elsewhere.

Many however are thinking positive and have left or are leaving for other countries.

Those are the facts, this island is slowly dying, only people who have incomes will survive.


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

Hepa said:


> 37% unemployment, 20% reduction in population, empty bars/restaurants, sales in supermarkets down 20%, a drastic reduction in the number of tourists. Few can afford to spend. Businesses here are openly forecasting closure within a year , others have already closed, there are few new ones opening. Quite simply people are skint and cannot afford luxuries, so few are spending.
> 
> A boost in tourism would help, however the Spanish government have reduced subsidies for the ferries, hence less crossings, so the tourists go elsewhere.
> 
> ...


You may look at the statistics and in your area and others it may be true. However, where I live the place is booming. I live in a village in Andalucia. It is a group of villages. It's got so busy, some days there is nowhere to park your car when you go shopping. You go to the butchers, you take a ticket and find there are 50 people in front of you. Some go in, take a ticket and go shopping in another shop. Now, I'm not saying your statistics are wrong, but you have to accept that someone is doing something right!


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## Bemused (Jun 1, 2013)

Interesting comments folks. It's a shame that things are as difficult as they appear to be right now. No doubt, in time, things will improve again. I remember all the comments about the housing prices collapsing in the UK and that one should look elsewhere if you want a return on investment. I just saw it differently. I think the best places to buy property right now is in the UK and Europe generally. Prices are low and rental returns are in the 5% to11% per annum regions. That's pretty good in my opinion. And as for convenience/ food stores. People have to eat and in most places, if your service, quality, pricing and selection are reasonable, then poeople will support the enterprise. Well, that's my experience in the retail world. (Although I haven't tried anything in Spain so the situation may be very different over there due to the economical situation). Although I guess they still have to eat. Maybe that is why Iceland is still there. Ah well, hopefully better times are close at hand.


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

Bemused said:


> Interesting comments folks. It's a shame that things are as difficult as they appear to be right now. No doubt, in time, things will improve again. I remember all the comments about the housing prices collapsing in the UK and that one should look elsewhere if you want a return on investment. I just saw it differently. I think the best places to buy property right now is in the UK and Europe generally. Prices are low and rental returns are in the 5% to11% per annum regions. That's pretty good in my opinion. And as for convenience/ food stores. People have to eat and in most places, if your service, quality, pricing and selection are reasonable, then poeople will support the enterprise. Well, that's my experience in the retail world. (Although I haven't tried anything in Spain so the situation may be very different over there due to the economical situation). Although I guess they still have to eat. Maybe that is why Iceland is still there. Ah well, hopefully better times are close at hand.


The two things people need, food and maintenance.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Hepa said:


> 37% unemployment, *20% reduction in population*, empty bars/restaurants, sales in supermarkets down 20%, a drastic reduction in the number of tourists. Few can afford to spend. Businesses here are openly forecasting closure within a year , others have already closed, there are few new ones opening. Quite simply people are skint and cannot afford luxuries, so few are spending.
> 
> A boost in tourism would help, however the Spanish government have reduced subsidies for the ferries, hence less crossings, so the tourists go elsewhere.
> 
> ...


One of the things I never understood was why a reduction in population was necessarily seen as a bad thing. I can understand that from a "growth" perspective it might not be good because less people = less economic activity. However the lower the population the more resources there are to go around.


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

Chopera said:


> One of the things I never understood was why a reduction in population was necessarily seen as a bad thing. I can understand that from a "growth" perspective it might not be good because less people = less economic activity. However the lower the population the more resources there are to go around.


Ever since boats were invented, mankind has moved around, we call it emigration or immigration. People are always searching for a better life. We have migrant workers travelling around Europe looking for where the work and the money is. What is going on is nothing new. Yes there are immigrants, we know as expats, they came to retire until the going got tough and they now want to go back home to the safety of their original country. Why, I have no idea on a personal level. Britain is far from secure. I came to Spain for many reasons. The main reason was to integrate into a community and enjoy quality of life. It has never entered into our minds to cut and run, and to be fair, in our circle of friends, the only ones wanting to go home are the ones missing their grandchildren, or those where a partner has died.
I'd love to do more for my community, all I can do is my best. I'll stick it out because one day Spain may be great again. It is the victim of the world recession. Would I want to go bak to the UK, I don't think we could now!


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