# PR app lost? And questions about Visitors Section 11(6)



## Alsan (Aug 15, 2013)

Hi All,

I have been following this forum on the sidelines for a long time, but now it is time for me to get some help. Hope you are ready for a long story!

I am married to a South African, have been for 8 years, and have two South African children. We moved to South Africa from overseas about 18 months ago. Prior to that (Oct 2011) we had gone to the SA consulate in New York to apply for my Relative's Permit and my Permanent Residency, thinking that if I did all of that in good time I wouldn't have as much trouble as others have experienced. I got my Relatives (like many others I had thought I was receiving a permit that would allow me to work as long as I had a job offer but, alas) quick enough and then came our move and the long wait. 

I fully expected to wait 1 year maybe 18 months for my PR. It has now been 22 months and so in the past few months I have been contacting HA more and more. Most times I have been told that I will get a call back which never happens, a few times I have been told that the application is "in process". I have also been in constant contact with the person who took my application in NY and she has had absolutely no information for me. She cannot tell me what my case number is, she cannot tell me what stage the application is, she just keeps telling me to be patient, saying that the application is at Head Office in Pretoria, even though she also says they are not replying to her requests for information.

Then, out of the blue, yesterday I was told by HA that there is no PR application on record for me. None. How is this possible? I have been repeatedly told for almost two years that it is being processed and now they are saying I never lodged an application? HA tells me to contact NY consulate and ask for case number but the lady in NY then tells me that they are wrong, of course there is an application and it's just their systems saying something wrong and she has for some reason never gotten a case number for my application. She says not to worry my PR will come through still. But how on earth can it come through if there is no record of the application, then no one is working on it? I keep getting bounced back and forth and no one is willing to help me. We spent a considerable amount of time and money to get to NY for that application process and I have waited and waited, just like I was told to.

Plus, I have in the meantime been offered a job. I know I can get a Vistors Permit 11(6) with a work endorsment but how can I trust that application would be dealt with in a timely manner and not all of a sudden disappear too? I also get conflicting information about what I need for that application. I have a new X ray and medical report but I really can't see the point of getting new police clearances (apart from an SA one, as I have stayed here over 1 year). The two countries I have stayed in since I was 18 charge $100 and 80 pounds respectively for processing new police clearances plus the processing time is long. But I haven't stayed in them since we moved here, so how would new police clearances help? Besides HA took the originals (I have copied) of all of that documentation so why do I need that stuff again when they have it in their possesion?

I am so desperate I have contacted the SA embassy in my home country of Denmark. At least I got a helpful person on the phone there who said I could apply there if I went back and get the permit in 10 days but even though I mentioned the 11(6) he sent me the information for a general work permit which requires more documentation than the 11(6). So now I don't trust that I can get the right kind of permit if I go all the way there. And it would cost me a fortune (the job I have been offered doesn't pay an awful lot, so I can't just go wild) and I would need someone to look after my kids for 10 days.

I have no idea what the process is like going through the HA office in Barrack St. We specifically went to NY to avoid this kind of scenario. How crazy does it get there, what is the average waiting time for a Visitors Permit at the moment, where do I get the right form? Do I have to first go in and pick the form up, then come back another day to apply? And do you have to queue just to get a form or is it only for applications you do that? 

Any advice and similar experiences would be greatly appreciated. Feel like throwing in the towel. I have never felt so unwelcome and unwanted in any country I have lived in, and I have been in a few!


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## Johanna (Apr 13, 2009)

Alsan, I as so very sorry to read about this, it seems as if the department of home affairs do not know what the heck they are doing.

Please read the following :
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/so...th-africa/173873-permanent-residence-app.html


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## Alsan (Aug 15, 2013)

Thanks Johanna!

Well, things just got even more complicated. I had kind of decided that I was going to call HA now every day, pestering them until someone did something to sort it out. So I just called the customer service center for the millionth time and, lo and behold, this time, using one of my old reference numbers, they can see I have been told that my application is being processed and he doesn't know why I have been told that there is no application. But! He says my application was received on the 29th May 2013, almost exactly 18 months after NY sent it to Head Office! What???

What is going on here? What am I to believe? Obviously this means he doesn't want to escalate it because, although I have been waiting for 22 months, they can claim I have only been waiting for 3 months. How convenient for them!


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## LegalMan (Dec 26, 2012)

In my experience, a court order usually sorts this out very quickly. Takes less than 2 months.


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## Saartjie (Mar 1, 2010)

Alsan said:


> Thanks Johanna!
> 
> Well, things just got even more complicated. I had kind of decided that I was going to call HA now every day, pestering them until someone did something to sort it out. So I just called the customer service center for the millionth time and, lo and behold, this time, using one of my old reference numbers, they can see I have been told that my application is being processed and he doesn't know why I have been told that there is no application. But! He says my application was received on the 29th May 2013, almost exactly 18 months after NY sent it to Head Office! What???
> 
> What is going on here? What am I to believe? Obviously this means he doesn't want to escalate it because, although I have been waiting for 22 months, they can claim I have only been waiting for 3 months. How convenient for them!


Unfortunately I am not surprised. I submitted my PR application in Cape Town in November 2011 and subsequently discovered that it only reached head office in Pretoria in May 2012 so if it took 6 months for an application to get from Cape Town to Pretoria I am not surprised that it took 18 months for it to get from New York to Pretoria


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## Saartjie (Mar 1, 2010)

Alsan said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I have been following this forum on the sidelines for a long time, but now it is time for me to get some help. Hope you are ready for a long story!
> 
> ...


I can possibly guide you with regards to the section 11(6) permit as I have obtained this permit twice. The reason why the embassy in Denmark could not help or rather sent the wrong forms is because they cannot issue section 11(6) permits. These can only be issued within SA.

For this application you need the same documentation that you are required for any Temporary Residence Permit plus a written job offer or even better a signed contract of employment. This means that you must supply up to date Police Clearance, xrays etc. I have got away with 'old' Police Clearance Certificate in the past as I could prove that I had not left SA since the certificate was issue and it would therefore have been near impossible for me to have visited another country and commited a crime there. But, there is no guarantee that HA will accept out of date ones. The only way to know is to submit and see what they say. If they do not accept you will have to order new ones. 

My first section 11(6) took just over 10 months to come through (they lost my application 3 times). My second permit came through in 5 months but I used an immigration lawyer then as my previous experience was not good and I needed the permit urgently for my job.

I got my application forms from my lawyer but I am sure you can pick it up from HA at Barrack Street. 

Let me know if you have any questions. Happy to help as I know how frustrating this is. Please do not feel unwelcome though (I also felt like that) as we all experience the same treatment and it is nothing but inefficiency from HA rather than being something personal.


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## Alsan (Aug 15, 2013)

Thanks guys!

Hejsan Saartjie (my mother is Swedish ), I know it's not personal, I just feel more like a foreigner here than I have anywhere else. I haven't been able to feel settled here and this really doesn't help. 

Wow, I am really shocked it took you so long to get your TR. If that's what I can expect I can kiss that job goodbye. 

I just really don't understand what a new police clearance would do, even if you had left the country to go on holiday. In the 18 months I have been here I have been back to DK once for a 2 week holiday. But how would a new police clearance from the UK and Bermuda give them any indication of whether I had commited any crimes while on holiday in DK? For all they know I could have been drug smuggling all over Asia and those two new police certificates wouldn't show a thing. As it happens, when I applied for my PR and TR in 2011 we used the same UK police clearance I had used to get into Bermuda, so it was from 2008 and no one said a thing. So I will have to take my chances I guess.

So do I just pick up the form from Barrack St, or do I have to queue for that too? Just so I can plan if I have to be there at the crack of dawn just for the form. There really is nowhere you can just print it off?


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## Saartjie (Mar 1, 2010)

Alsan said:


> Thanks guys!
> 
> Hejsan Saartjie (my mother is Swedish ), I know it's not personal, I just feel more like a foreigner here than I have anywhere else. I haven't been able to feel settled here and this really doesn't help.
> 
> ...


Hej hej:smile:
It's all trial and error I guess with the Police Clearance. It's worth a try at least but as I said it depends upon where you apply and who looks at your application if they are going to accept it.

I have a soft copy of the application form which my lawyer emailed to me. I guess I can attach it here (not sure if possible). This will save you having to queue up just to get the form. Let me know and I will try to attach.


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## Alsan (Aug 15, 2013)

Yes, if you could somehow attach a copy that would be very helpful!

Oh, and I forgot to ask, does my husband need to come with or can he just write a letter of support or something?

What fun I had going to the local police station to apply for a police clearance. Had my fingerprints taken in a room where a bunch of gangsters were being interrogated.

Oh, and HA called back yesterday saying actually now they don't know why I was told that they had received my application, they are back to saying there is no application and refuse to explain to me how an application can go from having been received to never having existed. Round and round we go.


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## Saartjie (Mar 1, 2010)

Alsan said:


> Yes, if you could somehow attach a copy that would be very helpful!
> 
> Oh, and I forgot to ask, does my husband need to come with or can he just write a letter of support or something?
> 
> ...


Hi,

I have tried to attach the form (not sure if it works). 

As this is application is to change the conditions on your permit it does not require your husband to attend. A letter of support is sufficient.

Yes the finger print experience at police station is fun Had black ink on my fingers for days, looking like a true criminal.

If I were you I would resubmit the PR application. If you cannot get concrete proof that they have it, I would assume that it has been lost.

Saartjie


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## Alsan (Aug 15, 2013)

Yay, great, thank you very much for your help!

Am I right in assuming that as a spouse my employer doesn't have to fill in or prove the whole section about the application process? I just need the offer letter and contract?


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## Alsan (Aug 15, 2013)

Because I also see now there is that employer's declaration that says they will be responsible for the cost of deportation, but surely they don't need to sign that if I am here as a spouse?

So confusing! Which of all those a, b, c sectionsis it I am supposed to fill in any way? There doesn't seem to be one that specifically says visitor's permit with work endorsement.


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## Saartjie (Mar 1, 2010)

Alsan said:


> Because I also see now there is that employer's declaration that says they will be responsible for the cost of deportation, but surely they don't need to sign that if I am here as a spouse?
> 
> So confusing! Which of all those a, b, c sectionsis it I am supposed to fill in any way? There doesn't seem to be one that specifically says visitor's permit with work endorsement.


When I applied for my first section 11 (6) my employer did complete and sign the form. I also submitted my signed contract.

I specifically wrote on the front page Section 11 (6) permit to make sure there was no mistake. 

For my second 11(6) my employer did not have to sign as it was not job specific. It was issued as a work endorsement which allows me to take up employement with any employer although I have to work within specific fields of work (which are stated on my permit).

I may have a copy at home of my old application. I will have a look to see how I completed it.


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## Alsan (Aug 15, 2013)

I am giving my contact at the consulate in NY one last chance to sort out this mess with my PR, she has just emailed me again stating specifically that the application went to Permanent Residence section on the 6th Oct 2011 in a Diplomat bag and that she will get some more information for me. Otherwise I will reapply. Do I have to pay the fees all over again, even though it is their mistake?

I had also phoned the presidential hotline last week and out of desperation even emailed Jackie McKay at HA who I think is head of permits and visas and that, simply because I was tired of not being able to get through to a real person, not just some computer-typer-inner. Interestingly enough, it looks like that email is being escalated through the system, so maybe I will get something out of that. I probably sounded like a lunatic in it though because I am so fed up, but maybe you have to shout the loudest to be heard. Sitting around and waiting, like they have told me to do, certainly hasn't gotten me anywhere.


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## Saartjie (Mar 1, 2010)

Alsan said:


> I am giving my contact at the consulate in NY one last chance to sort out this mess with my PR, she has just emailed me again stating specifically that the application went to Permanent Residence section on the 6th Oct 2011 in a Diplomat bag and that she will get some more information for me. Otherwise I will reapply. Do I have to pay the fees all over again, even though it is their mistake?
> 
> I had also phoned the presidential hotline last week and out of desperation even emailed Jackie McKay at HA who I think is head of permits and visas and that, simply because I was tired of not being able to get through to a real person, not just some computer-typer-inner. Interestingly enough, it looks like that email is being escalated through the system, so maybe I will get something out of that. I probably sounded like a lunatic in it though because I am so fed up, but maybe you have to shout the loudest to be heard. Sitting around and waiting, like they have told me to do, certainly hasn't gotten me anywhere.


Hi,

Did you get a receipt when you applied? Did you get an sms when your application had been captured at HA. Both of these are important and if you have not received these then you should consider to reapply. Otherwise you have no proof of application. HA loses applications all the time and as it has been so long and they are now saying that they have not received it seems like it may be lost.

What fees are you referring to? If you are applying as a Spouse or Life Partner then there is no fee for PR. 

You sound so much like me. I also wrote an irratic email to Jackie McKay but I never received a response. The Presidential Hotline sorted out my first section 11(6) when HA had lost my application for the third time. It took a couple of months but they did come through so it is definitely worth a call to logg a complaint.

Have you made your section 11(6) application yet?


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## Alsan (Aug 15, 2013)

Saartjie said:


> Hi,
> 
> Did you get a receipt when you applied? Did you get an sms when your application had been captured at HA. Both of these are important and if you have not received these then you should consider to reapply. Otherwise you have no proof of application. HA loses applications all the time and as it has been so long and they are now saying that they have not received it seems like it may be lost.
> 
> ...


That's the problem, we couldn't give them a number to SMS to as we were overseas so the agreement was that we were completely reliant on the consulate in NY communicating everything to us. They apparently have never received a case number, why, this woman cannot tell me. She just keeps saying it's all fine, my application is being processed, apparently this happens to them all the time and the approval still comes through in the end. She sounds very sincere and professional whenever I manage to get her on the phone but I wouldn't be surprised if she is ********ting me. I am just tired of HA telling me I need to deal with NY and NY claiming it's all HAs mistake. It's called responsibility, take it!


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