# Proving 20 hours/week of self-employment



## MEB (Aug 31, 2009)

Have just hit a major wall with my application. Unfortunately my case officer will not accept that I was gainfully self-employed because I can not prove that I worked 20 hours each week in a 12 month period leading up to my application. I am successfully self-employed having started my business in 2007. However it did not start to take off financially until 2008-2009. In the 12 months in 2009 I earned a commensurate wage but unfortunately I achieved it without working more than 20 hours. I worked significantly less but because I work in a professional industry as a consultant I could earn that money in less than 20 hours. Bizarely I am being refused because I did not work enough! I managed to provided consulting services in less than 20 billable hours per week and make a good living. I obviously made the mistake of too much honesty in my documentation and am being told to reapply. Any advice on how I can convince the case officer. He says there is no leeway with regard to the legislation on this matter. He can not take into account time spent working on my business, training, strategy, meeting potential clients etc. Booklet 6 from DIAC does not even mention the word self-employed or how to define the work of self-employed people. Very dissappointed!.
MEB

176 application - sponsored by State of Victoria as R&D Manager.


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## kaz101 (Nov 29, 2007)

Hi MEB, 

We were both self employed when we applied (several years ago) but we had contracts or invoices that showed the amount of time that we worked. We were working 35+ hours a week. 

Yes you have to work a certain number of hours to get in and I think it's on the DIAC website somewhere so your case officer is correct (unfortunately).

Regards,
Karen


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## MEB (Aug 31, 2009)

Yes, it says in Booklet six that employment is defined as 20 hours per week. However it doesn't say how rto define that employment, in fact the word self-employment does not appear in the booklet. I actually billed clients for a little bit less than these 20 hours but I spend time working *on* my business as well. He is giving no allowance for this. Ironically, I am sponsored by Victoria because of my profession and the industry I work in and my 17 years of experience in it, but the DIAC is deciding that I don't work hard enough. Next time I will have to lie. Totally stupid. Friends told me that this obsession in Australia with ticking boxes would drive me nuts. I understand what they mean now.
MEB.


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## kaz101 (Nov 29, 2007)

They're saying you didn't work 'long' enough not 'not hard enough'.

Yes they like all the boxes ticked and all the little bits of paper too. 

And I agree that you can spend a lot of hours working on your business but they are thinking about this from an employee point of view and not self employed. 

Good luck with the new application.


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## Weebie (Sep 16, 2009)

your there for the government to make money off you not to be valuable to the economy because they don't care.

If there is a skill shortage in your skills in Australia its because they're the **** jobs that no one in aus wants to do. Your of no benefit to Australians as far as they're concerned.


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## kaz101 (Nov 29, 2007)

Weebie said:


> your there for the government to make money off you not to be valuable to the economy because they don't care.
> 
> If there is a skill shortage in your skills in Australia its because they're the **** jobs that no one in aus wants to do. Your of no benefit to Australians as far as they're concerned.


Ah you mean they're just like every other government then


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## MEB (Aug 31, 2009)

Good news is that my case officer has got back to me and said that they will acceept my self-employment hours and work level as (just about) meeting the requirements. I am glad I was a bit tenacious with him. There is a lot at stake.
MEB


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## kaz101 (Nov 29, 2007)

MEB said:


> Good news is that my case officer has got back to me and said that they will acceept my self-employment hours and work level as (just about) meeting the requirements. I am glad I was a bit tenacious with him. There is a lot at stake.
> MEB


Congratulations - that is good news!


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## Hobart (Jan 25, 2012)

*What documents did you sumbit to support your claim for 20 hours*

Hi there

Am on 475 and an wanting to apply for a permenent visa. What were the documents you submitted to support your 20 hours self employed work load. 

cheers


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## MEB (Aug 31, 2009)

Hobart said:


> Hi there
> 
> Am on 475 and an wanting to apply for a permenent visa. What were the documents you submitted to support your 20 hours self employed work load.
> 
> cheers


I had to supply copies of invoices to prove I was paid. I gave a spreadsheet detailing the hours I worked on each project. It didn't come up to 20 hours per week but I argued that these were only billable hours and didn't take into account the hours I spent working ON my business rather than working IN my business, i.e. the tim I spent trying to get new work and selling my services. As I said above, you have to be tenacious with them. They can be fair but are often pedantic.

I argued that it would be difficult for any well-paid professional to get in using their system. For example, if you are a professional consultant who gets paid a lot of money per hour, you could be comfortable working less than 20 hours per week. I argued that they were punishing me because I was successful and well paid. They eventually gave in when I got them to accept that there is nothing in the regulations to deaal with self-employment.

MEB


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## Hobart (Jan 25, 2012)

*20 Hours*

Thank You indeed. Appreciate that. Factually it doesnt matter how much you make but to show DIMA how many hours you put in. 

thanks alot

cheers


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## MEB (Aug 31, 2009)

Hobart said:


> Thank You indeed. Appreciate that. Factually it doesnt matter how much you make but to show DIMA how many hours you put in.
> 
> thanks alot
> 
> cheers


My Case officer was very unprepared to accept the time working "on" my business so I had to convince him that I was doing this work for clients but could not itemise these hours on the invoice for commercially sensitive reasons.

Best to have all the stuff lined up in advance and put yourself in their position. How would you "trash" your own supporting evidence if you were a case officer? These guys are probably as decent as you and me but they are doing a busy job with many applications and they may be inclined to tick boxes so best to make it easy for them. Good luck.

MEB


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## Hobart (Jan 25, 2012)

MEB said:


> My Case officer was very unprepared to accept the time working "on" my business so I had to convince him that I was doing this work for clients but could not itemise these hours on the invoice for commercially sensitive reasons.
> 
> Best to have all the stuff lined up in advance and put yourself in their position. How would you "trash" your own supporting evidence if you were a case officer? These guys are probably as decent as you and me but they are doing a busy job with many applications and they may be inclined to tick boxes so best to make it easy for them. Good luck.
> 
> MEB


Thanks mate. I have been keeping invoices and my contract signed with the principle.


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## CandK (Feb 8, 2011)

I've come across this too with regards self employment my DP is a bricklayer sub contracted we are only in the very first stage haven't had skills assesed yet, but wondering what exactly are they going to look for how does he prove he works twenty hours when he is paid typicaly by brick/block , could they look at accounts from the revenue and we will say he earned 20,000 in the year would they divide that by 52 weeks and work out divide that by 20 hours so he makes €20 per hour, surely it cant be that easy ? would love to hear from someone self employed no on an hourly rate


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## MEB (Aug 31, 2009)

CandK said:


> I've come across this too with regards self employment my DP is a bricklayer sub contracted we are only in the very first stage haven't had skills assesed yet, but wondering what exactly are they going to look for how does he prove he works twenty hours when he is paid typicaly by brick/block , could they look at accounts from the revenue and we will say he earned 20,000 in the year would they divide that by 52 weeks and work out divide that by 20 hours so he makes €20 per hour, surely it cant be that easy ? would love to hear from someone self employed no on an hourly rate


Hi CandK. I think as a tradesman he is effectively working full time and the situation won't arise. It was only in the act of showing that I was actively employed in my chosen profession over the two year period that they noticed my hours and questioned it further. I probably gave them too much detail and got myself in trouble. I imagine if you have evidence of payslips or invoices showing that you are engaged in your trade for a year in the two years previous to the application you will be fine. If there is any chance of you not being able to have this year-long period then you might have to hold off on your application. They are very fussy about this. For example. I applied in January 2010 and they took my accounts from 2008-2009 into account. At the time of being questioned about it in November 2010, I was gainfully engaged in a 25 hour per week contract for more than a year but they said it didn't matter - they were only interested in the period in the two years leading up to my date of application. They actually suggested that I apply again and I would be fine. It was very frustrating, but fortunately I persevered and I got the Visa without having to reapply.

MEB


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