# Renouncing US citizenship (HELP!)



## retroradio45 (11 mo ago)

Hi all,

I am an accidental American who is tax compliant with the IRS after finding out a few years back that I had to file taxes, I went through the streamlined procedure. I currently file taxes via H&R Block, this process is generally hugely stressful and I fear is taking years off my life and renouncing US citizenship may be the only way I can find peace.

I know the costs of the renunciation process which is under $3000 dollars, but I also know there is a taxation element even for people who have a net worth of less than $2 million. I have very little idea of how to do this! I've written an email to a firm who responded that they can help and the rate is £200 + VAT per hour. Has anyone here gone through the process of renouncing US citizenship or has a tax advisor who could help me out?

I've read a lot about what you give up by renouncing citizenship and I'm comfortable with it, not having to file a tax return with H&R Block ever again in my life will feel like being released from prison! So any potential loss from loss of citizenship is not something I am very worried about even though I do have friends and family in the US, I have no plans to go live there.

Regards,
RR


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

retroradio45 said:


> but I also know there is a taxation element even for people who have a net worth of less than $2 million.


It depends somewhat on your status. They state that you have to understand that you need to be "up to date" with your tax filings, but nowhere in the process do they actually ask you if you are.

Then, the year in which you renounce, you are supposed to file as a "dual status alien" - i.e. a regular return for January 1 through your date of renunciation, and then a 1040NR for the remainder of the year (which involves only declaring your US source income for that period). And a form 8854, which is essentially a balance sheet and listing of your US tax obligation for the past 5 years. Something shy of about 40% of those who have expatriated ever even file the form and there seems to be little to no follow up on whether or not you file it - unless you are leaving with significant unpaid tax debts or are a zillionaire or something else that would put you on the IRS radar.


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## retroradio45 (11 mo ago)

Great thanks for the response and the tips  



Bevdeforges said:


> It depends somewhat on your status. They state that you have to understand that you need to be "up to date" with your tax filings, but nowhere in the process do they actually ask you if you are.


I'm up to date so that's no problem.



> Then, the year in which you renounce, you are supposed to file as a "dual status alien" - i.e. a regular return for January 1 through your date of renunciation, and then a 1040NR for the remainder of the year (which involves only declaring your US source income for that period). And a form 8854, which is essentially a balance sheet and listing of your US tax obligation for the past 5 years. Something shy of about 40% of those who have expatriated ever even file the form and there seems to be little to no follow up on whether or not you file it - unless you are leaving with significant unpaid tax debts or are a zillionaire or something else that would put you on the IRS radar.


OK great, I will look up those forms.

I'm neither zillionaire nor have I any unpaid tax... So is there a form to fill in to declare your net worth? Including everything from house - mortgage, pensions, bitcoin nowadays, and maybe even a gold watch that may be worth something? Does it go like that?


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

It's the form 8854 - but it's a modified balance sheet. Nothing about the gold watch, nor household stuff like furniture, cars, etc. It's mostly bank accounts, pensions (that have a quantifiable value - not state pensions that are fixed benefit), but I'm not even sure about real property (i.e. real estate). You'll have to look at the form for the details, but it's pretty simple.


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## retroradio45 (11 mo ago)

Bevdeforges said:


> It's the form 8854 - but it's a modified balance sheet. Nothing about the gold watch, nor household stuff like furniture, cars, etc. It's mostly bank accounts, pensions (that have a quantifiable value - not state pensions that are fixed benefit), but I'm not even sure about real property (i.e. real estate). You'll have to look at the form for the details, but it's pretty simple.


Looking at it now thanks.


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## Harry Moles (11 mo ago)

You may not want to hear this, but there's no requirement to be in tax compliance in order to renounce US citizenship. Pay your $2350 and that's the end of it. No need to file first or deal with form 8854 after - the State Department doesn't care. (I recently did this. Renounced without having filed US tax returns, and no intention of ever doing so. My CLN arrived within the month.)

The good news, I suppose, is that you should have collected the $3200 stimulus benefit for your troubles, so filing wasn't a completely waste. Given that you're up to date on filings it would probably make sense to do form 8854 after renouncing, but you can also decide to simply walk away. Since the IRS only knows what you tell it, if you do file, be sure to report a net worth below the $2 million limit.

In a lot of cases renouncing isn't really that necessary, if an Accidental American either wasn't born in the US or lives in a country where banks aren't super strict about FATCA. Just ignore the tax obligations and live your life. The IRS cannot harm you. But if you do have a US birthplace and banks are picky then renunciation begins to look worthwhile.


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## retroradio45 (11 mo ago)

I've started seeking advice on this and I'm in the process of putting everything I need to renounce, however, one thing that concerns me is the timescale. The US Embassy in the UK hasn't been taking appointments for renunciations since the start of the pandemic and I'm afraid that there will be a huge wait once the offices open again. Does anyone know roughly how long it used to take in the UK to schedule one of these appointments? End to end how long did it used to take?


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

It's really hard to tell how long things are going to take, as it depends on the individual embassy, the current Covid situation and how much of a backlog they developed during the time. In Canada, it used to take a good year or (sometimes) more to get the necessary appointments (when they were requiring two separate appointments). And this was pre-Covid. 

In France, I set up my appointment during the Christmas holidays (where they ask you to email copies of your documents and then conduct a phone interview for the first round) and had my appointment within two weeks of January. (Again, pre-Covid) Add to that, I received my CLN a mere week after the big appointment at the embassy. So start to finish, I was done in under a month. (I'm still astounded by that.)

Friend of mine in Germany (who had to get her dossier for taking German citizenship approved first) got through it all in about six or eight weeks IIRC - being only "stateless" for a couple weeks between when she had her second appointment and when her German citizenship came through.

Best advice is to keep checking the embassy website and follow whatever instructions they have there (regarding number to call, email address to use and what hours on which days they will take calls regarding renunciation etc).


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## retroradio45 (11 mo ago)

Thanks for the advice  I will be patient, waiting a while longer is not the end of the world considering I've had this for close to 50 years. Being free from US citizenship for the remainder of my years is something to really look forward to!


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## Harry Moles (11 mo ago)

Get in the queue right away, sooner or later it will be your turn. The whole thing is quite simple, over very quickly. Consular officials will not ask any questions about your tax status - they don't care if you're filing or not. If you don't want to bother with the additional filings after expatriation - or don't want to pay someone to do them for you - then you can just forget about it.


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## Travis Black (10 mo ago)

Harry Moles said:


> Get in the queue right away, sooner or later it will be your turn. The whole thing is quite simple, over very quickly. Consular officials will not ask any questions about your tax status - they don't care if you're filing or not. If you don't want to bother with the additional filings after expatriation - or don't want to pay someone to do them for you - then you can just forget about it.


Hello,

I am initiating my renouncement/relinquishment of US citizenship - have just been contacted after filling out an online form to ask for an appointment (in Tokyo). I have a question about the form 4979 and also about the distinction/process for renouncement/relinquishment.

My question about 4079 is if anyone knows why you are asked to complete a section that asks for all of the start and end dates of any/all countries of residence since birth. What does that have to do with renouncing citizenship? 

I took another nationality (including renouncing my former nationality in the process) in 2007. I have travelled, worked and resided in several countries since then using my "new" nationality for visa purposes and all other purposes. My entire life since then has been as a national of a different country. This would seem that I should be able to request back dating my relinquishment to 2007 - but, (and this is the question), in 2010 while working abroad I renewed my US passport instead of letting it expire, or renouncing officially then in the US embassy. That was a mistake I know. I did that because at the time I was nervous about being able to visit the US as I knew a family member was very ill and eventually this would mean the end and I would want to visit at some point before that (not knowing when exactly). In the end, I travelled to the US in 2016 for 10 days (2 of them in 2017) overland from Canada after having flown from my country of residence to Canada with my other national passport. I tried to enter with said passport, but the immigration agent got quite excited and began asking me lots of questions. In the end I pulled out my US passport explained that I had one, and was allowed to enter the country.

Now I am finally fed up with having any ties to the US and plan to renounce. My tax situation is recently in compliance and it looks like I'll have an appointment at the Tokyo embassy in July. 

What I am wondering is: will having renewed my US passport in 2010 (after having renounced it in my naturalisation ceremony to become a citizen of another country in 2007) and having used it once in ten years disqualify me from requesting that my relinquishment be recognised and so have my CLN backdated to that time? Or should I just not think about it and leave it up to the US embassy people to notice that and then do the renouncement (oath, etc.) if that is what is the thing to do?

Thanks in advance for any knowledge sharing on these two (related) topics (filling in form 4079 and what I have just described)

Cheers,


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

Basically, the US won't recognize any renouncement of your nationality that was part of a citizenship ceremony anywhere else. And I strongly suspect they won't entertain a request to backdate your CLN in any event. (You renounce officially as of the date when you pay your money.)

As far as asking what countries you have lived in, I suspect it's only to verify that you have another nationality (or two or three) to fall back on. They really don't seem to check on anything you put on the forms (including tax compliance) so keep it simple and keep it honest.


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## Travis Black (10 mo ago)

OK Bev,

Thanks for this. I agree. It's probably best just to fill in the gaps, follow the dotted lines, pay the fee and get on with life. I asked really because of a discussion I had read on another website https://*****************.ca/renunciation/comment-page-280/.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Best


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## Harry Moles (11 mo ago)

@Bevdeforges
The US certainly will recognize past relinquishment based on taking another citizenship. While renunciation is the simplest and most common means of relinquishing US citizenship, there are others, including taking another nationality with the intention of losing US citizenship. Given that the fee is the same and the process of documenting relinquishment is more complicated, most people simply renounce, unless there's a good (tax) reason to have a back-dated CLN.

@Travis Black
I re-read your old thread at Brock. Nothing has really changed. You probably should not attempt to document relinquishment given that you have renewed and used a US passport. If you are simply renouncing, you only fill out DS-4081, not DS-4079. Also, by "my tax situation is recently in compliance" mean that you have filed in the last few years? If so that would make it difficult if not impossible to document past relinquishment, given that filing US tax returns is, like renewing your passport, an indication that you continue to believe you are a US citizen. So forget about relinquishment, you'll only be able to renounce.

Question: is the Tokyo consulate insisting that you fill out DS-4079 because you've asked to relinquish, or are they sending it to you as part of the renunciation package? If the latter, this is incorrect. You don't need that form to renounce, only DS-4081.

Finally, the advice you received from Brock in 2017 was sound. Not sure why you ignored it and are still insisting that you can relinquish - particularly after you claim to have come into tax compliance (which was pointless and unnecessary though it should at least have provided you with the $3200 in stimulus benefits, which nicely covers the renunciation fee).


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## Travis Black (10 mo ago)

Hello Harry,

Thanks for your comments. I didn't realise that 4079 wasn't necessary for renouncing. The Tokyo embassy has yet to inform me what documents I need to provide them with. I received an email about available appointment dates but missed the phone call made minutes prior to them sending the email. I hope to receive another call soon as the procedure seems to be 1. consultation on the phone. 2. Documents Submission & Communication via email & 3. Final interview at the embassy. So, once I have been able to have the consultation call, hopefully they will only ask me for form 4081. That would be easier. I suppose that 4080, 4082 and 4083 are also needed. Do you think I will also be asked for a translation of my file in the civil registry of the country I became a citizen of as well? I have prepared a self-certified translation of that in case I am asked to provide it. I had thought that copies of the bio page of the other passport would be sufficient. Suppose I'll know more once I receive the phone call and more information from the embassy people.

Just to clear things up, it wasn't my post on the Brock thread in 2017, just something I was reading. The person who wrote it does have some similarities with my situation though, it's true. I recently sent in a streamlined package for 4 years and filed 2021. That's what I meant. I decided to do that (despite not having filed since I took on the European nationality have now have) because it was my understanding that I needed to be compliant in order to renounce and do the final dual return. I have read that in fact many people don't do that and there is no problem. But, I wanted to be 100% clear about it all and as they say, have a clean break from past ties in by all accounts. 

So, with a bit of effort on the embassy's part, I will receive a phone call, and more information about the forms and documents they want, and get to renounce my citizenship formally (for their side) in July. For the record, my European nationality is one that does not recognise or allow dual citizenship and I have had no problems in that regard for many years. It was the banks in that country that began to insist that I provide them with a SSN that made me realise that it was the best idea to go through all of the hoops and renounce so to get the CLN and not have any more hassles of that sort again. 

Thanks once again for taking the time to read and reply to my posting.

Best


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## Harry Moles (11 mo ago)

Ah, okay, there were indeed many parallels between yourself and whoever posted at Brock.

For renunciation only, you should only need to do forms DS-4080 and DS-4081. They are quite simple. As you've now discovered, tax compliance is not necessary, and you will not be asked any questions about your tax status. The embassy will answer any specific questions you have about documentation and translation.

PS The embassy may have an additional information form of its own. It's not an official State Department form, but basic information gathering for the consular posts in that country.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

Travis Black said:


> Do you think I will also be asked for a translation of my file in the civil registry of the country I became a citizen of as well? I have prepared a self-certified translation of that in case I am asked to provide it.


Bring a copy with you to the consultation at the embassy, but it's very unlikely that they will want to see it. The US tends not to recognize any other government's "foreswearing" of nationality unless you paid your $2350 to the US consulate at the time.


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## Harry Moles (11 mo ago)

If it's a straight renunciation, you will be asked for proof of another citizenship, but a passport will suffice, they don't care about how it was acquired, or when. (One can actually renounce without having another citizenship and become stateless, but this is an advanced skill, not recommended for beginners.)


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