# Do any of you feel a freedom in Mexico that was not present back "home"?



## surfrider

I was trying to describe to one of my kids that there is this freedom here in Mexico that I feel and that I did not have the same freedom in the states as I do here.
Does anyone else feel that way? And WHY. I could not explain it to her. Is it just me or do others feel that freedom here?


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## Isla Verde

surfrider said:


> I was trying to describe to one of my kids that there is this freedom here in Mexico that I feel and that I did not have the same freedom in the states as I do here.
> Does anyone else feel that way? And WHY. I could not explain it to her. Is it just me or do others feel that freedom here?


Not sure what you mean by "freedom". Could you give us a couple of examples to get the discussion going?


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## eagles100

*Here's how I feel in Mexico as for personal freedom goes:*
- With high walls and security bars at our casa, I feel more free to walk around the house without feeling like a showcase. I love my privacy. I love to be able to open windows, yes even during the day, and not fear (as much) that someone will break-in. In Canada, if you had bars on the window/doors, you would be called out as a freak.
- I have physical disabilities and I don't get the gawking in Mexico like I do NOB. I'm in my 40's and sometimes use a cane or walk like a 90 year old. NOB I'm being judged and I don't get that as much in Mexico. There is more respect in Mexico.


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## chicaperdida

I haven't moved there yet, but this is a major reason for wanting to do so. My husband has described Mexico and it sounds very appealing to me v. California where I've grown up feeling very stifled. Some examples are, being able to paint your house a colour of your choosing and not just the HOA approved colour. Not stressing about your dogs barking or playing some music at 9pm. (I am polite to my neighbours, I promise but people here LOVE to complain about others. There's no respect or camaraderie.) You really can't live your life at all without walking on eggshells here. I've known people here (in my hometown) who have gotten tickets for jaywalking or playing their music too loud in the middle of the day! Police love to stop people and harass them for any and every reason. Minors even have a 10pm curfew, they aren't supposed to be out walking the streets after that time. It kind of varies by where you live, but my sister's HOA for example is awful. They get passive aggressive notes on their door ALL time for stupid things. I.E. they replaced a broken window and had the old one sitting at the curb for trash pickup the next day. They got a note not to leave trash lying around for too long. Apparently, half an afternoon and a few hours in the morning is "too long." Also, in America you are a slave to your things. I know this lack of freedom is mostly in our minds, but it is a hard mindset to break. You take out ridiculous amounts in student loans only to get a not so great job then take out another ridiculous loan to get a house and then spend the rest of your days working and not enjoying your house, because you are too busy trying to get out of debt. It's a vicious cycle that unless you have some specific skill and can go to a 2-year college or become a famous singer/sports player it just can't be broken. I'm not trying to start a political argument, but I don't understand how people say America is "free." Anyway, Sorry for the long winded personal rant. That's how I feel. I hope I feel free when I finally move to Mexico and find the peace I'm looking for. I'm not really politically active, I just want to be left alone to live my life.


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## Hound Dog

[_QUOTE=chicaperdida;1253817]I haven't moved there yet, but this is a major reason for wanting to do so. My husband has described Mexico and it sounds very appealing to me v. California where I've grown up feeling very stifled. Some examples are, being able to paint your house a colour of your choosing and not just the HOA approved colour. Not stressing about your dogs barking or playing some music at 9pm. (I am polite to my neighbours, I promise but people here LOVE to complain about others. There's no respect or camaraderie.) You really can't live your life at all without walking on eggshells here. I've known people here (in my hometown) who have gotten tickets for jaywalking or playing their music too loud in the middle of the day! Police love to stop people and harass them for any and every reason. Minors even have a 10pm curfew, they aren't supposed to be out walking the streets after that time. It kind of varies by where you live, but my sister's HOA for example is awful. They get passive aggressive notes on their door ALL time for stupid things. I.E. they replaced a broken window and had the old one sitting at the curb for trash pickup the next day. They got a note not to leave trash lying around for too long. Apparently, half an afternoon and a few hours in the morning is "too long." Also, in America you are a slave to your things. I know this lack of freedom is mostly in our minds, but it is a hard mindset to break. You take out ridiculous amounts in student loans only to get a not so great job then take out another ridiculous loan to get a house and then spend the rest of your days working and not enjoying your house, because you are too busy trying to get out of debt. It's a vicious cycle that unless you have some specific skill and can go to a 2-year college or become a famous singer/sports player it just can't be broken. I'm not trying to start a political argument, but I don't understand how people say America is "free." Anyway, Sorry for the long winded personal rant. That's how I feel. I hope I feel free when I finally move to Mexico and find the peace I'm looking for. I'm not really politically active, I just want to be left alone to live my life.[/QUOTE]_

Well, I must say as a former resident, for many years, of California and a resident of Mexico as a retiree for over 12 years at both Lake Chapala and in San Cristóbal de Las Casas, Chiapas starting in 2001, that you are overly optimistic about the "freedoms" here in Mexico versus California and I lived all over that state for over 35 years. In fact, I grew up in Alabama in the "Jim Crow" era of the 1940s and 1950s and if you want a lesson in the limits on "freedom", try that. 

In Mexico, you have "freedom" as long as you have two important things; influence and/or money or, preferably, both and lots of those things.. Absent those two assets, there is "mordida" as a third alternative and with money, influence or mordida, you can usually find "freedom" in Mexico for a while at least unless you are dealt a bad card. It´s best to maintain a low profile down here as ostentation or recklessness is ill-advised.

Let´s just discuss a your notion of architectural freedom:

We have purchased several homes and rebuilt or refurbished them in California and Mexico and have never been subject to more inflexible regulations than in the historic district of San Cristóbal right down to not only the color but the composition of the paint and the building materials used in reconstructing what was basically a ruin and our reconstruction of that ruin was beneficial to both us and the community and, I might add, our plans were in accordance with historical standards of the community in every respect.

Now, we understand the need to protect the architectural integrity of the historic district of San Cristóbal and other historic cities of Mexico but one will run into the same problems at Lake Chapala where historic preservation is less significant. There, boards of fraccionamientos or condominium boards can be just as inflexible as historic committees in what they allow you to do with your property.

You made several other points I don´t have the time to discuss at present but will be happy to discuss at your leisure at a later time. I just want you to know that, as much as I love living in Mexico, "freedom" is not a reason to move here.


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## surfrider

maybe it is the "freedom" of having the ability to put up walls., maybe it is the right to not even have windows in your home and have just a hole in the wall instead. I know that with my son who is disabled he is considered here a ****** man and not classified different as in the states.
maybe it is this feeling of acceptance in regards to life here.


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## citlali

I do not feel freer here, on little things yes as they are less rules but frankly when I see the justice system here, I hope I never have to deal with it and for me that is the important part so freer no.
What I feel is more respect for individual of all ages and as some people pointed out for persons who are sick or handicapped people are accepted as they are but try to find handicapped ramps.. There are pluses and minuses in every culture.

By the way try to do whatever you want in a gated community..


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## Isla Verde

The generally wonderful weather (not hot, not cold) in Mexico City has freed me from needing four different seasonal wardrobes!


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## Hound Dog

_


surfrider said:



maybe it is the "freedom" of having the ability to put up walls., maybe it is the right to not even have windows in your home and have just a hole in the wall instead. I know that with my son who is disabled he is considered here a ****** man and not classified different as in the states.
maybe it is this feeling of acceptance in regards to life here.

Click to expand...

_"...feeling of acceptance in regards to life here."

I´m not sure I know what you mean by that surfrider but in all due respect, "aceptance" is in the eye of the beholder. We often drive around Southern Mexico from Chiapas to Oaxaca to The Yucatan and occasionally we may have darker skinned indigenous friends riding with us. Down there you will run across many retenes staffed by the army, the cops or the immingration authorities. When it is just us old foreign white folks, no problem, a pleasant social exchange and we are on our way ; but if we have our olive skinned indigenous friends with us, we all become immediately suspicious. Not that the authorities are rude, but certainly more attentive and questionning. After all, we could be smuggling Hondurans to Texas. Life around the world is the same.


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## maesonna

Freedom from having to be on time in certain types of social situations. 

Example - if there’s a party, as long as you arrive the same day, you’re welcome, you’ll be greeted warmly, urged to the table, food pushed at you, etc. The mindset of “We started eating 4 hours ago, where were you then?” doesn’t exist.


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## Anonimo

maesonna said:


> Freedom from having to be on time in certain types of social situations.
> 
> Example - if there’s a party, as long as you arrive the same day, you’re welcome, you’ll be greeted warmly, urged to the table, food pushed at you, etc. The mindset of “We started eating 4 hours ago, where were you then?” doesn't exist.


The flip side is, that when _we_ are the hosts, and guests arrive up to two hours late, I get very frustrated. Extended lateness is a cultural trait to which I have never gotten accustomed.


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## citlali

Well I have not run into so much lateness as people showing up with guest and ending up having to feed way more people than I expected. It always happen especially for Christmas dinner . I have trained every guest to arrive more or less within an hour and I always make way more food than I think I will need and also have some extra courses always ready to be done quickly so if the meat course is short I fill up people before that course with something else..I also make dishes as a rule that are not as time sensitive..I never make souflés for hord oeuvres when I expect Mexican friends.


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## maesonna

I try to learn from how hosts do it, namely having *way too much* food. The right way to do it is – if you’re not desperately pressing the guests to take containers and bags of food as they leave – to save you from eating the leftovers for at least the next two weeks – then you “didn’t make enough.” I exaggerate, but only a tiny, tiny bit.


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## citlali

In Oaxaca you go to a fiesta with your basket and your green chocolate pot and or plastic little buckets. At the end of each meal you are supposed to put whatever is liquid or semi liquid in the buckets, the bread and tortillas in the basket , you can also carry your leftovers on tlayudas and the hot chocolate goes in the green pots...You are talking of making way too much...I guess it is the way to pay back the guests since the women are supposed to show up and help with the preparation of the food and the cleaning up.


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## Isla Verde

I have a certain amount of freedom in the general way I live my life (nothing scandalous, you understand!) because I'm not a Mexican woman of a certain age.


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## chicois8

Being able to pay a small fine at the scene for breaking a traffic law...


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## AlanMexicali

Mexico, to me, was much freer in many ways before the gov´t.´s social democracy bureaucrats went overboard with rules and enforcement and the influx of amphetamines and cocaine slowly happened. It used to be a very free society and less consumerism was very apparent back then. 

Daily pleasures such as family and friends and decent food was more important than now in many working class and middle class areas. I presume rural areas and ejidos haven´t changed as much as urban areas.

If you had a car back then it was usually packed full of family and neighbors every time you went somewhere. Now you are driving alone. I see it every time I leave the house here, at least.


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## GARYJ65

citlali said:


> In Oaxaca you go to a fiesta with your basket and your green chocolate pot and or plastic little buckets. At the end of each meal you are supposed to put whatever is liquid or semi liquid in the buckets, the bread and tortillas in the basket , you can also carry your leftovers on tlayudas and the hot chocolate goes in the green pots...You are talking of making way too much...I guess it is the way to pay back the guests since the women are supposed to show up and help with the preparation of the food and the cleaning up.


You are talking about an ITACATE, but an exaggerated one!


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## makaloco

Mexicans in general seem more willing to accept me as I am, even if it's as an "eccentric foreigner". I've lived outside the US for most of my adult life, and every time I visit I'm startled by how intrusive and judgmental some people can be. I've had folks I barely know, or even total strangers, make assumptions or judgments about my politics, religion, lifestyle choices, even the way I dress. I think overall that in Mexico I feel more freedom from social pressure and expectations, while in the US people expect me to think and behave like a "regular American" (whatever their notion of that might be). I do share some of those values, of course, but unfortunately most of them are from ca. mid-70s!


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## Marishka

Rita Golden Gelman, the author of _Tales of a Female Nomad_, put it this way: “Once I leave the U.S., I am not bound by the rules of my culture. And when I am a foreigner in another country, I am exempt from the local rules. This extraordinary situation means that there are no rules in my life. I am free to live by the standards and ideals and rules I create for myself.”

Also, I think that some expats feel freer simply because they moved to Mexico shortly after retiring from their jobs “back home.” The responsibilities that come with jobs and raising children are behind them. Some have downsized from a large home that required a lot of upkeep, while others who bought another large home in Mexico now have a maid and gardener to do household chores. They still have the same 24 hours in each day, but now more of those hours can be used in doing the things they _want_ to do, rather than the things they _have_ to do.


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## makaloco

Marishka ... lovely quote, thank you. That nails it for me.


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## terrybahena

The slower pace down here for me alleviates stress, that's a bit of a "free feeling". No expectations, like to be on time may be freeing but always bugs me. When I'm invited somewhere at a specific time I ask, Mexican time or American time. (that's when the event is mixed). For events just Mexican, I usually leave to go there at the start time, I'm still early, but not as early as I used to be. 

It does feel like people are more accepting, of dress, of condition if your car ha ha. And although waiting in lines is always excruciatingly slow....when it's your turn you can take as long as you want. Business being done by first conversation, then business, then more conversation forces one to slow down, and that's kinda freeing sometimes. But as someone said above- better to have a low profile...I feel like I can do whatever I want, but I am careful. It does feel like there are alot less rules, but is that always a good thing? I love it here, but as I said, I'm careful...


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## citlali

Marishka nailed it. If you are a foreigner you are not bound by the unwritten laws of the culture you live in. When I go home to France my husband does all kinds of things that are not done in my culture and it makes me cringe and I also realize how many understood but not spoken rules there are, As a foreigner you just do not know them and do not have to abide by these rules because you have no family or community holding you responsible. 
I see foreigners here doing or saying things Mexicans do not do or say.


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## AlanMexicali

citlali said:


> Marishka nailed it. If you are a foreigner you are not bound by the unwritten laws of the culture you live in. When I go home to France my husband does all kinds of things that are not done in my culture and it makes me cringe and I also realize how many understood but not spoken rules there are, As a foreigner you just do not know them and do not have to abide by these rules because you have no family or community holding you responsible.
> I see foreigners here doing or saying things Mexicans do not do or say.


On the other hand being married to a Mexican National I have to behave myself even more than before as she is responsible for me understanding what a person of "Bien Educado " should know and behave like or it reflects on her as a poor teacher.

It is common for people who travel to the USA or Canada to comment on rudeness they encounter there as a sort of gossip and actual put down at parties I have been at within the Mexican middle and upper middle class. They excuse themselves to me and simply ask "Is that normally what people do?" I make a joke about it and will say something like "Well in California we don´t act rude like that but I guess in Texas they do. California where I live is a much nicer place."

They have also commented on the way people dress, especially grown women on the Mexican border and in the US and call them "liberal". But that is here in the heart of ultra conservative Central Mexico.

I used to dress in flip flops and baggy cargo shorts and Hawaiian shirts in Mexicali and got the police staring at me when they drove by and not too many good mornings back them. My neighbor mentioned I look like I am at the beach all the time. Then he mentioned it would be better to act your age and dress like the gentleman I know you are. You are not in San Diego anymore.

So yes they accept tourists doing things but in my experience some, not all, are critical of immigrants, as they are critical of rancheros living in the city. One time I was hanging around an OXXO and a ranchero looking guy parked sideway in front of the OXXO taking up 3 parking spots in his pickup. Two others there told him here we park in one spot, you are not back on the ranch anymore. 

There are many who criticize people from "out of town". It appears to be as common here as in San Diego in my experience at least in middle and upper middle class San Luis Potosi. They are not used to tourists here.

TJ is another story as almost everyone is from "out of town" there.


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## AlanMexicali

Another thing which 4 years ago struck me as odd. I was coming from Guadalajara on an ETN bus that left at 12:30 AM to San Luis Potosi 2 days before Christmas. The bus had a women by herself and an infant 2 rows behind me which pooped its diapers a few minutes after leaving the bus station. The AC was on strong and every 5 or 10 minute this horrible odor would circulate to me and it was very strong. Not one person woke the lady up. Why? Was it consider rude to wake her up so she could go into one of the two bathrooms and change the baby? This lasted for over 90 minutes until she went to change the diaper. This had me scratching my head the whole trip. This among other experiences are odd to me.

Is this freedom to contaminate a full bus with 65 people on board? I think so, so in this case there are freedoms that are not normal in other places.


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## Isla Verde

AlanMexicali said:


> Another thing which 4 years ago struck me as odd. I was coming from Guadalajara on an ETN bus that left at 12:30 AM to San Luis Potosi 2 days before Christmas. The bus had a women by herself and an infant 2 rows behind me pooped its diapers a few minutes after leaving the bus station. The AC was on strong and every 5 or 10 minute this horrible odor would circulate to me and it was very strong. Not one person woke the lady up. Why? Was it consider rude to wake her up so she could go into one of the two bathroom and change the baby? This lasted for over 90 minutes until she went to change the diaper. This had me scratching my head the whole trip. This among other experiences are odd to me.
> 
> Is this freedom to contaminate a full bus with 65 people on board? I think so, so in this case there are freedoms that are not normal in other places.


This story is an extreme example of the Mexican reluctance to complain about unpleasant things that other people are doing that bother you. I think it's considered rude to do so, a worse breach of etiquette than the offending behavior itself: playing loud music at 3 am, letting your dog bark all night, leaving garbage bags to the entrance of your building and so on. Since I am an uncouth foreigner, I have no compunction about doing the necessary complaining, at least not in my building!


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## RVGRINGO

Would it have been OK to awaken the woman with a kind compliment regarding the efficiency of the infant s digestive system, as a result of her obviously fine culinary skills?


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## Marishka

makaloco said:


> Marishka ... lovely quote, thank you. That nails it for me.


De nada. Caren Cross made a similar statement in her excellent documentary, _Lost and Found in Mexico_: "I'm no longer a part of the U.S. culture, and I'm not a part of the Mexican culture. Kind of leaves me free. I can tune into how I really feel and just be more myself."


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## AlanMexicali

Isla Verde said:


> This story is an extreme example of the Mexican reluctance to complain about unpleasant things that other people are doing that bother you. I think it's considered rude to do so, a worse breach of etiquette than the offending behavior itself: playing loud music at 3 am, letting your dog bark all night, leaving garbage bags to the entrance of your building and so on. Since I am an uncouth foreigner, I have no compunction about doing the necessary complaining, at least not in my building!


Yes it is that way even on the border. My next door neighbor has those barbeques in his front yard sometimes and I wait until 11 and go over and chat with him about his party and get myself a sit down steak dinner and leave. Nothing I can do but sleep in.

I also went to the corner many years ago and hailed down a police car and had him give this neighbor a good shouting at for constantly parking one of his 12 cars he and his next door brother owned in my driveway spot. I usually honked my horn until he came out to move it. I would arrive every Fri. after work around 7 PM and always there was a clunker there and got tired of it. Both neighbors were out watching by my side. He was mad for awhile but I asked him for over a year to vacate the spot on Fri. Please! It didn´t work. Now we are friends again and he got all the clunkers towed away and only has several left in his and his brother´s yard.

If that happened on the bus again I would go knock on the locked door and ask the driver to do something.


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## AlanMexicali

RVGRINGO said:


> Would it have been OK to awaken the woman with a kind compliment regarding the efficiency of the infant s digestive system, as a result of her obviously fine culinary skills?


This was a several month old infant and mother´s milk is a very strong odor when evacuated.


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## surfrider

Hound Dog said:


> "...feeling of acceptance in regards to life here."
> 
> I´m not sure I know what you mean by that surfrider but in all due respect, "aceptance" is in the eye of the beholder. We often drive around Southern Mexico from Chiapas to Oaxaca to The Yucatan and occasionally we may have darker skinned indigenous friends riding with us. Down there you will run across many retenes staffed by the army, the cops or the immingration authorities. When it is just us old foreign white folks, no problem, a pleasant social exchange and we are on our way ; but if we have our olive skinned indigenous friends with us, we all become immediately suspicious. Not that the authorities are rude, but certainly more attentive and questionning. After all, we could be smuggling Hondurans to Texas. Life around the world is the same.


Acceptance not for color but for example.....
in the states if things are hard, you look for ways to improve - to get more - to do better YET many people never get beyond where their at and are unhappy with that. They have not achieved the "better" and are not happy with that. In Mexico it seems that the Mexican will do without and accept what is rather than try to change it. In that process of acceptance they seem to enjoy and laugh more than the American/Canadian counter part that is trying to "change" for more and better. That is not to say that the Mexican does not want to advance or improve, they just do not place the same level of emergency onto that advancement.


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## Hound Dog

[_QUOTE=citlali;1254790]Marishka nailed it. If you are a foreigner you are not bound by the unwritten laws of the culture you live in. When I go home to France my husband does all kinds of things that are not done in my culture and it makes me cringe and I also realize how many understood but not spoken rules there are, As a foreigner you just do not know them and do not have to abide by these rules because you have no family or community holding you responsible. 
I see foreigners here doing or saying things Mexicans do not do or say.[/QUOTE]_

My darlin wife, citllali, is making fun of me though it is she, not I, who moved to Mobile and married an Alabama Swamp Bunny. I, on the other hand, married a Parisienne so who is the sucker in this duo?

Dawg used to sell the _New York Times _on the Champs Elysées and, alternatively, the Place de l´Opera in Paris in the 1960s long before I met my sweetie in the 1970s in Mobile so getting off of the cambion de nabo was not just what I had done when I met my future and greatly admired companion. 

By the way, I did pretty well selling the _New York Times _in those days as the Times tried to break into the market for English language papers monopolized by the _International Herald Tribune _in the 60s when there was no other source of internatonal news in English and expats actually longed for a foreign news source in their native language whatever it may have been. 

Times have changed - sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse. That´s life.


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## Isla Verde

surfrider said:


> Acceptance not for color but for example.....
> in the states if things are hard, you look for ways to improve - to get more - to do better YET many people never get beyond where their at and are unhappy with that. They have not achieved the "better" and are not happy with that. In Mexico it seems that the Mexican will do without and accept what is rather than try to change it. In that process of acceptance they seem to enjoy and laugh more than the American/Canadian counter part that is trying to "change" for more and better. That is not to say that the Mexican does not want to advance or improve, they just do not place the same level of emergency onto that advancement.


I beg to differ with your post, surfrider. I know any number of professional middle-class Mexicans who began life on the lower ranks of Mexican society and through dint of hard work and intelligence and education have greatly improved their lot in life.


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## Hound Dog

Well said, Isla Verde and I am in total agreement. The climb out of poverty is vigorous and difficult. Cultural stigmas make the efforts of those inclined to above average achievement even more difficult in communities with years of extreme poverty going back beyond memory which makes the climb out of the cycle of poverty and ignorance even more admirable. The same thing happens in the United States and France and all over the world. Middle class was handed to me on a silver platter and with only marginal effort on my part. The kids I see crawling out of the arroyo despite all of the obstacles, are to be admired and cherished. They are the hope of the future everywhere.


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## makaloco

Hound Dog said:


> By the way, I did pretty well selling the _New York Times _in those days as the Times tried to break into the market for English language papers monopolized by the _International Herald Tribune _in the 60s when there was no other source of internatonal news in English and expats actually longed for a foreign news source in their native language whatever it may have been.


Isn't that how Jean-Paul Belmondo and Jean Seberg met in "A Bout de Souffle?" She was hawking the Herald-Tribune, IIRC. So you and Citlali are clearly in good company, although your movie has a nicer ending.


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## Hound Dog

_


makaloco said:



Isn't that how Jean-Paul Belmondo and Jean Seberg met in "A Bout de Souffle?" She was hawking the Herald-Tribune, IIRC. So you and Citlali are clearly in good company, although your movie has a nicer ending.

Click to expand...

_
At least so far, makalocobut all movies have endings for better or worse. The French, as you know, have a saying for everything and one of them is, "By the time you learn how to live, you die." or something like that. I was making about 80 Centimes a paper when selling the Times in those days which was good money for young, useless vagabonds in the 1960s until some strikingly beautiful young woman started selling the Herald Tribune across the street at the Opera along with some fine mind-altering drugs. After that, my business was in the toilet so I had to head back for the Champs Elyseés.


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## Isla Verde

Hound Dog said:


> At least so far, makalocobut all movies have endings for better or worse. The French, as you know, have a saying for everything and one of them is, "By the time you learn how to live, you die." or something like that. I was making about 80 Centimes a paper when selling the Times in those days which was good money for young, useless vagabonds in the 1960s until some strikingly beautiful young woman started selling the Herald Tribune across the street at the Opera along with some fine mind-altering drugs. After that, my business was in the toilet so I had to head back for the Champs Elyseés.


So, HD, when is your autobiography coming out? I want an autographed copy, please.


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## surfrider

Just interested - but Isla and Hound Dog would either of you perfect to live back full time in Canada or the states? And if not = why?


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## Isla Verde

surfrider said:


> Just interested - but Isla and Hound Dog would either of you perfect to live back full time in Canada or the states? And if not = why?


If I had more of a retirement income, I might have stayed in the States. The weather is better here, and I'm happy here, but back in the States I have my aging mother, several lifelong friends and public libraries!

But what I might have done shouldn't matter to you, should it? If you and your son are happy here, much happier than you would have been back in the States, that's all that matters!


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## Hound Dog

_


surfrider said:



Just interested - but Isla and Hound Dog would either of you perfect to live back full time in Canada or the states? And if not = why?

Click to expand...

_Well, Surfrider, I can explain thatt easily enough. The Gulf Coast between about Orange Beach, Alabama and Panama City Beach, Florida is about a 200 mile stretch of pure white sands and magnificent crystal clear aquamarine waters unequalled on the planet and I speak from experience having sought the perfect beach and adjacent surf for many years when I had no other purpose except searching for beaches or, alternatively, places filled with irresponsible people without moral boundaries wallowing about in excessive sexual encounters. I never found the perfect beach or sexual encounter but maybe that was because my interests in those things were marginal at best. I was more interested in 1958 Ford Fairlanes but that is another matter. 

I might still live on the Alabama Coast but in 1971 I tricked my wife, just arrived a few months before from France, into moving to San Francisco and after she became used to the wonderful weather there, there was no way I could ever convince her to move back to Mobile or down to Mérida. Thanks but no thanks.

The only reason we left Northern California, God´s gift to the human race, is that we could not afford to live there and retire at the same time. Any more questions?


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## terrybahena

_The only reason we left Northern California, God´s gift to the human race, is that we could not afford to live there and retire at the same time. Any more questions? _

Yo tambien!


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## mes1952

I definitely feel I have more freedom (and less restrictions) than living in the U.S.
And that especially is true if you have pets; I've never had a pay a pet deposit anywhere I've lived in Baja and dogs are allowed on every beach where they are allowed only on a certain few beaches in the U.S. depending on the state.


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## GARYJ65

mes1952 said:


> I definitely feel I have more freedom (and less restrictions) than living in the U.S.
> And that especially is true if you have pets; I've never had a pay a pet deposit anywhere I've lived in Baja and dogs are allowed on every beach where they are allowed only on a certain few beaches in the U.S. depending on the state.


In some cases, like yours, less restrictions is a good thing, some others, I dont't know, I would like to have a few more restrictions and fines. For example: littering


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## Longford

My observation has been, over the years, that Mexico has been the choice for many expats due to economic hardships back home, or they haven't had enough money to live in the style they'd like to live back home, and they've searched for someplace cheaper and not because they have a strong interest in Mexico otherwise. It's been a default location, because of proximity to the USA combined with the lure of living less expensively. Then too, with the huge increase in deportations of illegal aliens from the USA back to Mexico ... many expat spouses have followed their partners to Mexico because the only other option is divorce or living apart ... an option most do not consider for very long. Many expats return home when major changes in life occur: personal health declines and they understand their healthcare options can be substantially limited (depending upon where they live in Mexico), or there has been a death of a parent or sibling or child back home. One may have to make many sacrifices, compromises when living in a foreign country ... and for a while that's well and good. But there does come a point when many expats say to themselves, "Is it worth it?" Yet others settle-in for the long-haul, just fine.


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## citlali

Our situation was very simple , we had a property way out in the country and I was sick of travelling, finding an equivalent job without travelling was impossible and taking care of the property was very expensive so I had a choice continuing travelling or stopping working. I figured we could get a smaller place in town and live off the proceed until retirement. The idea of living in California was no very apealing to me , I missed living close to a market , having one car for long trips rather than for every day life, I hated the empty street, the lack of stret live.
We eplored moving to Albama.Louisiana area as my husband is from there but I did not like the idea of hurricane, humidity . We had live down there and I do not like going back anywhere as the present is never as nice as the past..We live in an isolated bayou which I loved but the place had been gentifried and I had no interest in it,
Looked at Arizona and the Palm Spring area but having work there , I know about the summer thought of New Mexico when the couple working for us , they were from Guatemala and Nicaragua, came back from a trip to Oaxaca and kept telling me that was the place we were looking for. 
I had visited Mexico several time and liked it and for some reason had not thought about retiring there so I flew down, starting with Chapala, liked Ajijic as it reminded me of a village in the south of France where I had spent vacations as a kid, bought a house and that was it. No regret.
I have no family in the States and my husband and I have gone there once in the last 8 years. Nice to visit but I cannot imagine living there anymore.
I think we have gone back to Europe 4 times in 12 years to see my family and they have come to visit a couple of time. I cannot imagine moving back to France..talking about lack of freedom, Europe has become totally regulated on just about everything , it is plain awful. Again nice place to visit but forget about living there. If I ever went back I probably would pick Portugal but that is a long shot.
We are happy here and I cannot imagine going somewhere else to live.


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## Hound Dog

[_QUOTE=mes1952;1255455]I definitely feel I have more freedom (and less restrictions) than living in the U.S.
And that especially is true if you have pets; I've never had a pay a pet deposit anywhere I've lived in Baja and dogs are allowed on every beach where they are allowed only on a certain few beaches in the U.S. depending on the state.[/QUOTE]_

On that comment about pets on the beach. You´re right that, in the U.S. it depends upon the state. In my native Alabama, which shares a shore with Northwest Florida, I could play on the beach with my dogs to my heart´s content but if I made the short jog across Perdido Key into Escambia County, Florida, my dogs were barred. Of course, that was 40 years ago and the reason dogs were outlawed was to protect the expanxive pure white sand beaches from dog poop so maybe things have changed on the Alabama beaches now as well. 

We lived and played with our dogs on the beaches of California, Oregon and Washington, a huge expanse of land, for years and never received even a hint that that act was frowned upon so there was no reason to move to Mexico to escape beach restrictions. That having been said, we have hiked and played with our dogs on Mexican beaches stretching from Puerto Vallarta to Lake Chapala to Southern Quintana Roo for years without even a hint that that was frowned upon so we´ll stay here, thank you. 

There is nothing akin to playing on a deserted beach with your dogs - in our case these days - five of them. We made the right decsiion in moving down here.


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## mes1952

If you haven't been on a beach with your dogs in California for the past 5 years things have changed dramatically as most beaches in California do not allow dogs. The same with local parks. 40 years is a LOOOONGGGG time ago and things chang dramatically within a couple of years. I'm concerned about things in the present...not in the past...guess that's part of the generation gaps.


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## citlali

Well it sounds like The US are going the same way as Europe,with restrictions on just about everything, who knows what the future holds for Mexico but whatever changes I hope they do not come too soon.


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## Longford

citlali said:


> Well it sounds like The US are going the same way as Europe,with restrictions on just about everything, who knows what the future holds for Mexico but whatever changes I hope they do not come too soon.


Generally, I think it's true that Mexicans aren't as fixated on elevating dogs to the status of human beings. They're more realistic, and domestic animals aren't as central to the lives as they are to so many people in the USA. I'm fine with that! 

I can't recall the last time I saw a dog on a beach in Mexico. Most of the vendors and families throw rocks or beer bottles at the dogs, to get them to move along. I don't see beachgoers bringing their dogs for a walk, either. Mostly, I think that's frowned upon. In the USA I think it's now rare that you'd have to walk over dog s*it in the sand at a beach. If someone's happy stepping in that stuff in Mexico, fine. But not me. 

Freedom isn't defined similarly, by all people.


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## citlali

We must not go to the same type of beaches, I see dogs where we go to the beach but we do not usually go to swimming beaches, just isolated beaches and we never fail to see gangs of dogs and nobody else. 
We would not dream of bringing a dog on a busy beach with lots of people on the sand.
We usually do not go to the beach during the high season either but they are plenty of local dogs on the beaches in Oaxaca, in Troncones in Guerrero, they were abandonned dogs last time we were in Akumal as well, I guess we do not use the same beaches.
In the US we lived around Jenner in Norther california and we would walk our dogs on the beaches north of there and never see anyone there no signs about dogs either although there were signs on beaches that were more developped.
If you cannot do that any longer then there is no reason to bother living up there ..


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## Guategringo

citlali said:


> We must not go to the same type of beaches, I see dogs where we go to the beach but we do not usually go to swimming beaches, just isolated beaches and we never fail to see gangs of dogs and nobody else.
> We would not dream of bringing a dog on a busy beach with lots of people on the sand.
> We usually do not go to the beach during the high season either but they are plenty of local dogs on the beaches in Oaxaca, in Troncones in Guerrero, they were abandonned dogs last time we were in Akumal as well, I guess we do not use the same beaches.
> In the US we lived around Jenner in Norther california and we would walk our dogs on the beaches north of there and never see anyone there no signs about dogs either although there were signs on beaches that were more developped.
> If you cannot do that any longer then there is no reason to bother living up there ..


Citali you have to understand that Longford does not go to beaches in Mexico as he does not live in Mexico. He only goes to beaches in Chicago along the shore of Lake Michigan, therefore he would not see that there are dogs on the beach. He should preface each post of his with "when I used to work and live in mexico...." 

I have yet to visit a beach in Mexico off and on over the past 25 years and not see at least one dog. Most were not strays but with their owners, some strays looking for food, but the majority with an owner and that includes on the Gulf, Caribbean and Pacific coasts.


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## Hound Dog

[_QUOTE=mes1952;1256540]If you haven't been on a beach with your dogs in California for the past 5 years things have changed dramatically as most beaches in California do not allow dogs. The same with local parks. 40 years is a LOOOONGGGG time ago and things chang dramatically within a couple of years. I'm concerned about things in the present...not in the past...guess that's part of the generation gaps.[/QUOTE]_

You are mistaken mes1952 but I do understand why. The beaches we used to frequent in Alabama in the 1970s and then, for many years in Northern California, a place with splendid beaches stretching on forever and the beaches we frequent today in Mexico are isolated and devoid of sunbathers, strollers and vendors of bric-a-brac and _"tambouille_" (cheap beach fast food crap), balloon and trinket hucksters, cotton candy, beach chair and umbrella vendors and all that stuff, just locals walking their many dogs in solitude except for the cattle and horses and beach creatures who run and play and poop on the beach while chasing, but never catching birds they spot. 

There is no generation gap here - merely a cultural gap. The beaches I know but will not introduce you to are of today but also of 1955. Some things don´t change but you must be around for a while to comprehend that. Have at it.

To each his own.


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## tepetapan

The freedom I feel some days is being able to wear dark green cargo shorts with a blue Tee shirt.


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## q_vivar

I like when the traffic makes its own rules to get around an obstacle - for instance moving to the other side of the median to bypass an accident without some government representative giving everyone the okay. It's freedom to make a decision on your own.


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## Isla Verde

q_vivar said:


> I like when the traffic makes its own rules to get around an obstacle - for instance moving to the other side of the median to bypass an accident without some government representative giving everyone the okay. It's freedom to make a decision on your own.


I don't like it when drivers make up their own rules and go through red lights because, well, because they just want to ...


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## Longford

Guategringo said:


> Citali you have to understand that Longford does not go to beaches in Mexico as he does not live in Mexico. He only goes to beaches in Chicago along the shore of Lake Michigan, therefore he would not see that there are dogs on the beach. He should preface each post of his with "when I used to work and live in mexico...."
> 
> I have yet to visit a beach in Mexico off and on over the past 25 years and not see at least one dog. Most were not strays but with their owners, some strays looking for food, but the majority with an owner and that includes on the Gulf, Caribbean and Pacific coasts.












_Guategringo_


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## maesonna

q_vivar said:


> I like when the traffic makes its own rules to get around an obstacle - for instance moving to the other side of the median to bypass an accident without some government representative giving everyone the okay. It's freedom to make a decision on your own.


Raise your hand if you’ve ever gone the wrong way on a one-way street on purpose.
I’ve done it twice.


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## q_vivar

Isla Verde said:


> I don't like it when drivers make up their own rules and go through red lights because, well, because they just want to ...


I used that example to describe a situation where you have the freedom to think and act your way around an obstacle and not wait till someone tells you what to do for fear that you might be fined/sued/viewed as a troublemaker/etc. To me, my "freedom" in the US was so limited by laws and rules that I was bored silly and worried about doing anything outside of the box. 
If they go through red lights and aren't crashing into oncoming traffic or running over pedestrians, think of it as saving gas!


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## Detailman

Hound Dog said:


> At least so far, *makalocobut* all movies have endings for better or worse. The French, as you know, have a saying for everything and one of them is, "By the time you learn how to live, you die." or something like that. I was making about 80 Centimes a paper when selling the Times in those days which was good money for young, useless vagabonds in the 1960s until some strikingly beautiful young woman started selling the Herald Tribune across the street at the Opera along with some fine mind-altering drugs. After that, my business was in the toilet so I had to head back for the Champs Elyseés.


Hound Dog,

When I read this entire thread your post made me really laugh.

At first I wondered why you were mad at makaloco and then I realized that you had simply missed hitting the space bar at an inappropriate time.

I am sure you didn't mean to insult makaloco*but*!


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## makaloco

LOL, wouldn't that be a double "t"? I didn't even notice, but I like the Dawg and would never intentionally do anything to make him mad.


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## MJB5293

hi well I live in juriquilla Queretaro the only question of the place we live was that I was required to submit the plan and get it approved and a cistern and two pumps 

as for the Querétaro historical district I am glad that they have very rigged policy to maintain the city.

im free to build what I want here as long as it fits the area I can't imagine trying to do what we did here in the USA with out a lot of hassle and I do not believe that it requires money or influence to be free here at all


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## surfrider

Longford said:


> My observation has been, over the years, that Mexico has been the choice for many expats due to economic hardships back home, or they haven't had enough money to live in the style they'd like to live back home, and they've searched for someplace cheaper and not because they have a strong interest in Mexico otherwise. It's been a default location, because of proximity to the USA combined with the lure of living less expensively. Then too, with the huge increase in deportations of illegal aliens from the USA back to Mexico ... many expat spouses have followed their partners to Mexico because the only other option is divorce or living apart ... an option most do not consider for very long. Many expats return home when major changes in life occur: personal health declines and they understand their healthcare options can be substantially limited (depending upon where they live in Mexico), or there has been a death of a parent or sibling or child back home. One may have to make many sacrifices, compromises when living in a foreign country ... and for a while that's well and good. But there does come a point when many expats say to themselves, "Is it worth it?" Yet others settle-in for the long-haul, just fine.


I could not agree more with your statements. 
Most of us are here because of the money and / or life style we want with the money we have. While I love living here if I had zillions of dollars and could live any where on earth - it would be my home country. I think that the freedoms are different and the restrictions less but with enough income the freedoms and restrictions back home are less also. So Mexico is where we will stay cause I can afford it.


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## citlali

The statement is not true for us. If I had a zillion dollars I still would not live in France. I may visit more often If I could go first class but the trip is still a pain and I hate the jet lag so I am not sure how often I would go as I get older. Going back and forth to Europe is a real pain as you are older and at age 75 my mother quit coming. 
I also would not move back to the US as I do not go back so Mexico is not so bad after all.
I enjoy Mexico very much have good friends here, the place is not perfect but neither are other places.


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## mes1952

One important advantage of living in Mexico is you are not bombarded with the materialism that exists, especially in California. Here no one cares if you drive an old car and have a high paying job, don't dress up except special occasions, wear no makeup, in short so much less stress than NOB. When I have to work in the San Diego area after only a couple of hours I am so ready to head back into Mexico.


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## citlali

I suspect you think n one cares because you are not part of a middle class or upper class Mexican family. I have notice that Mexican do not slum it like Americans do. I do not see well to do Mexicans walking around like bums in thier environement.


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## Isla Verde

mes1952 said:


> One important advantage of living in Mexico is you are not bombarded with the materialism that exists, especially in California. Here no one cares if you drive an old car and have a high paying job, don't dress up except special occasions, wear no makeup, in short so much less stress than NOB. When I have to work in the San Diego area after only a couple of hours I am so ready to head back into Mexico.


I see plenty of materialism in Mexico, perhaps because I spend most of my time in middle-class areas of Mexico City. Plenty of new cars and SUVs clogging the side streets and avenues of the city. The women are almost always dressed nicely with make-up carefully applied, even just to go food shopping or to visit the post office. From your comments I guess you and I inhabit different Mexicos.


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## AlanMexicali

Isla Verde said:


> I see plenty of materialism in Mexico, perhaps because I spend most of my time in middle-class areas of Mexico City. Plenty of new cars and SUVs clogging the side streets and avenues of the city. The women are almost always dressed nicely with make-up carefully applied, even just to go food shopping or to visit the post office. From your comments I guess you and I inhabit different Mexicos.


It must be the funny thing you see sometimes at OXXOs at 7 or 8AM with people going to get milk in their pajamas in TJ and Mexicali.  I haven´t seen that here yet.


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## Isla Verde

AlanMexicali said:


> It must be the funny thing you see sometimes at OXXOs at 7 or 8AM with people going to get milk in their pajamas in TJ and Mexicali.  I haven´t seen that here yet.


I've never seen anything like that in Mexico City ever, but then I'm never up that early!


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## mickisue1

IME, in most big cities, there is a higher expectation of dress in nicer neighborhoods.

Not to say that people WON'T wear PJ bottoms to the corner market, but it's expected that they will make more of an effort.

Really, where you end up living, if you are willing to take responsibility for your own choices, is a combination of things. What is your income? What climate is your preference? What level of formality? What number of neighbors, of tall buildings, what amount of cultural events is enough?

There are places all over the world where one can live more cheaply than in the US. While MX holds the lure of proximity for those who don't want to stray too far from home, there are others who choose to live in Southeast Asia, or South America.

The most important part of feeling at home where you find yourself is YOU, not the location. And even in the most restrictive environments, one can feel at home, if willing to deal with the negatives.

Conversely, one can spend one's life complaining about the shortcomings of a near paradise. As said by citlali, above, there is no place that's perfect. It's the willingness to embrace the imperfections, or to reject them, that make a place freeing or unbearable.


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## MichelleRN

surfrider said:


> I was trying to describe to one of my kids that there is this freedom here in Mexico that I feel and that I did not have the same freedom in the states as I do here. Does anyone else feel that way? And WHY. I could not explain it to her. Is it just me or do others feel that freedom here?


Yes because it appears as if you can ride a mini-bike or a dirt bike on a surface street and not get busted by the police for riding a motorcycle that does not have a head light, a tail light, or a license plate attached to it.


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## MichelleRN

mickisue1 said:


> It's the willingness to embrace the imperfections, or to reject them, that make a place freeing or unbearable.


Nice line !~!


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## MJB5293

with a tax rate of 75% on a zillion you would not be in France very long


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## lagoloo

Freedom? Depends. In CA, you could more or less trust the police, especially the highway patrol guys, to help you rather than rob you. Not so here. Get in an accident and you're in a miserable jail cell with no food except that which you hope your friends bring you. Happened recently to a friend, so it's no far fetched story. Lots of bribes got her out, but the end result is still pending.

Bars on your windows are not an oddity; they are a necessity. Someone gets caught stealing and with a little mordida, they're out on the street in no time.

I won't even touch the subject of Mexican politics. Another whole world.

Building laws are flaunted with impunity. Three story building against the building laws goes up next door hanging out over the street and blocking the light in your yard........too bad. The authorities have been given the proper "fee". If you report it, it's tsk tsk, but nothing ever happens.

I've lived here some years now, and "freedom" is relative. If you move here to have more of it than you had in CA, you're less informed than you should be. This is a nice place to live with a great climate and friendly residents.....but the "freedom" is what you can buy. And heaven help you if your dog barks all day or you do anything else generally offensive on more than an occasional basis. The locals will eventually get tired of it, and your dog will "disappear" one day, never to be seen again. Same with the local bad guys, who sometimes also disappear. 

We lived in one of those developments in CA where you had to paint your house a certain color or else. We left and moved to a different environment with greater tolerance for eccentricity.
That's a minor kind of issue. Try imagining living in an area in Mexico where the narcos rule with impunity and brutal murders are not unusual.

I'd suggest you rent out your CA home and rent in Mexico for a year; then come to conclusions about how much more "freedom" you'll have in Mexico. BTW, I'm here for the long haul, so I'm not being negative; just realistic.


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## Hound Dog

I second Ccitlali on the dog and beach thingy. I have had the pleasure in the United States of living on or near beaches from Dauphin Island, Alabama through Hermosa Beach, Santa Monica and many beaches in California as far north as Sea Ranch on the cool and often foggy Northern Sonoma Coast. Citlali and I have also had the opportunity to spend a lot of beach time on crowded beaches on the Meditteranean in France or, alternatively, the beaches of the often deserted North Atlantic beaches in France as well. On the Meditteranean, there you sit on a rented deck chair surrounded by countless beach chairs jammed together so that you can hardly even move and I found that so depressing that I complained to my brother-in-law of the mindless congestion so he showed me a his escape. He took me about 20 meters out into the calm and clear Meditteranean where we floated on innertubes and there was not a soul anywhere near us. We watched as, at precisely noon, we observed from our innertubes, that mass of humanity leave their beach chairs simultaneously and stroll, as one, back to their tiny and damend expensive beach condos to eat lunch before returning en-masse once again at 4:00PM before leaving for dinner at precisely 7:00PM as one back to that narrow beach to once again cluster in family units until late afternoon when this parade would duplicate itself until the next day when it happened like clockwork again , eventually resenbling the Bill Murray movie _Groundhog Day_. 

Give me five unleashed mutts on a deserted beach whether at Lake Chapala, countless beaches on the Pacific shore from Chiapas to Jalisco or along the Mexican Gulf Coast in the Northern Yucatan Peninsula over those overcrowded Meditteranean beaches or neck-to-neck crowded beaches of the Gulf in my home state of Alabama or nearby Florida. As my drill instructor at Parris Island told all of us in the training platoons in the 1960s, if you can´t walk directly through mud and mangroves, you don´t belong here. I say, if you can´t take the notion of occasionally stepping in dog excrement, stay home and turn on the OASIS High Def channels enjoying beautiful beaches in the Seychelles over a martini with clean feet.


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## surfrider

As I have traveled Mexico, I have seen and lived in different locations Each location is unique to its self. In that uniqueness there are different freedoms that you have or do not have, depending upon the sociological and cultural norms of that location. 

There are also many different definitions for the word Freedom. The Oxford Dictionary has a few definitions - the power of self-determination attributed to the will; the quality of being independent of fate or necessity. Unrestricted use of something: the state of not being subject to or affected by (a particular undesirable thing) the state of being physically unrestricted and able to move easily.


I think we all see freedom with our own personal definition of the word. Maybe our freedom is influenced by where and how we live - based upon the financial involvement and the location with the sociological involvement of the area. The question "Do any of you feel more freedom etc." has so many different levels to it that there is not a universal answer of yes or no - it is all very individual and personal. 


I for one feel a lot more freedom here in Mexico than in the states but also my life is very different here than it was in the states. I could probably have the same life here in Mexico that I had in the states if I wanted. (which I do not) but I do not think that I could have the same life I have here in Mexico in the states.


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## bajacooler

More financial freedom,
to live in a nice climate on my American pension!


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## lancekoz

I can imagine America feels quite legislated these days, but it is the price of a civilized society. Whether it is 'over-legislated' or over-civilized will be a matter of personal judgement. Living in Guadalajara, I would say it feels relaxed in terms of rules.... but there are side-effects. Even in my relatively wealthy neighborhood, piles of trash can coagulate anywhere, and instead of getting cleaned, they will grow for a few months until the city finally manages to stop in and scrape it up. Empty housing lots are treated like trash dumps. Deserted cars are frequent, taking up parking spots for years. The lack of police protection means that everyone lives behind walls, so the streets are devoid of human interest and feel quite alienating. Loud parties and fireworks can happen at any time. There are a lot of lost dogs, and the way most pets are treated is quite sad. I know from my walks that there are many dogs locked in garages or put up on the roof for storage every day. I can imagine the rules and costs of living in America feel quite onerous, but be aware, you do get something in return for being part of such a society.


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## lancekoz

When I first visited Mexico, I stayed at a rural beach hotel. There was a homeless dog following me often in my walks. At the far end of the beach, there were also a couple of donkeys on the beach! They left big piles of poop, and my dog pal found them and immediately rolled until nicely coated. A while later, I saw him wandering between the tables of an open terrace restaurant, much to the disgust of the diners. So, freedom has its side-effects.


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## Longford

lancekoz said:


> When I first visited Mexico, I stayed at a rural beach hotel. There was a homeless dog following me often in my walks. At the far end of the beach, there were also a couple of donkeys on the beach! They left big piles of poop, and my dog pal found them and immediately rolled until nicely coated. A while later, I saw him wandering between the tables of an open terrace restaurant, much to the disgust of the diners. So, freedom has its side-effects.


Wayward and abused, abandoned street dogs often find their way to me when I sit in a park, or at a beach. Dogs aren't as well cared for, for the most part, in Mexico as they are in the USA and/or Canada ... that's been my observation. The cultural norms are different. Some of that is understandable. But I'm a sucker for the downtrodden dogs and they spot me in a New York Minute. I never took one home when I lived in Mexico City - too many packs of dangerously agressive dogs in parts of that city. But I do continue to make myself available as a friend and in cities/destinations where I'm staying for more than just a day ... the dogs find a way to locate me before moving-on in their quest for survival. And, almost always, they lie across my feet as if begging me to stick around for a while.


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## lagoloo

If we get into the subject of the "rights" of dog owners to allow their dogs to deposit poop on the beaches, how about the "right" of the beach walker to look at the sky and the beach instead of downward to avoid stepping in poop? Too many dog owners are blind to the rights of others and care only for their own. 

IMO, considerate dog owners keep their pet and their pet's poop from interfering with their fellow human beings. Why shouldn't adults and children be be permitted to poop on the beach and in the street, too? Ahh, "freedom".

However, we should probably stay away from the entire subject before we start a good stamash amongst ourselves. 

As I see it, regulation happens when people refuse to regulate themselves to a degree that they need restraints on their behavior. Like the pendulum, it tends to swing both ways. If anyone's definition of "freedom" has to include stomping on their neighbors' rights, maybe they should give more thought to the matter. Or, to put it another way: Freedom isn't all about you.


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## Detailman

lagoloo said:


> If we get into the subject of the "rights" of dog owners to allow their dogs to deposit poop on the beaches, how about the "right" of the beach walker to look at the sky and the beach instead of downward to avoid stepping in poop? Too many dog owners are blind to the rights of others and care only for their own.
> 
> IMO, considerate dog owners keep their pet and their pet's poop from interfering with their fellow human beings. Why shouldn't adults and children be be permitted to poop on the beach and in the street, too? Ahh, "freedom".
> 
> However, we should probably stay away from the entire subject before we start a good stamash amongst ourselves.
> 
> As I see it, regulation happens when people refuse to regulate themselves to a degree that they need restraints on their behavior. Like the pendulum, it tends to swing both ways. If anyone's definition of "freedom" has to include stomping on their neighbors' rights, maybe they should give more thought to the matter. Or, to put it another way: Freedom isn't all about you.


Very well said!!:clap2::clap2:


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## Isla Verde

lagoloo said:


> However, we should probably stay away from the entire subject before we start a good stamash amongst ourselves.


Stamash? That's a new word to me.


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## lagoloo

Isla Verde said:


> Stamash? That's a new word to me.


It's either Irish or Scotttish and denotes a good pub brawl.


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## Isla Verde

lagoloo said:


> It's either Irish or Scotttish and denotes a good pub brawl.


Thanks for the explanation. It's always fun to learn new words.


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## TamiJ

I feel more freedom for sure. Especially pertaining to me as a teacher. I can actually teach, here. In the states it´s all about standardized testing.


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## diablita

TamiJ said:


> I feel more freedom for sure. Especially pertaining to me as a teacher. I can actually teach, here. In the states it´s all about standardized testing.


Forgive me if this is off topic but I have a question. I live outside of Acapulco in a rather poor area and have become friends with several families in the area. Some of their kids have sort of adopted me as a tio/abuelito figure and I try to help them out some. Many times they come to me asking for money to pay inscription fees, buy guias, buy uniforms, etc. Is this the norm in schools through out the country or just here in Guerrero. Education is supposed to be free in Mexico so why are the teachers frequently requiring the students to pay, pay, pay especially when their families can barely get by.


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## RVGRINGO

It is the norm. The eduction in public schools is free, but one must wear a uniform, buy books and materials, toilet paper, art supplies, and maybe even contribute to the cleaning and maintenance of the school. It all adds up and many of the very poor just cannot meet those epenses and kids stay home or only go for a few years.


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## Hound Dog

_


diablita said:



Forgive me if this is off topic but I have a question. I live outside of Acapulco in a rather poor area and have become friends with several families in the area. Some of their kids have sort of adopted me as a tio/abuelito figure and I try to help them out some. Many times they come to me asking for money to pay inscription fees, buy guias, buy uniforms, etc. Is this the norm in schools through out the country or just here in Guerrero. Education is supposed to be free in Mexico so why are the teachers frequently requiring the students to pay, pay, pay especially when their families can barely get by.

Click to expand...

_
Yor must be cautious about this, diabalita, or you will become a "mark" if you are not already. Forget the school requirements because, in my opinion, that is not the issue. The issue is that, although you have chosen to live in a poor barrio, you are perceived by others living there as a well-to-do foreigner whether or not you are such and it matters not that you are a foreign immigrant or a Mexican National from the more privileged classes (most of whom would would _never, ever _move into a poverty-stricken barrio) those suffering from penury here in Mexico will hit you up for money if they perceive that you have resources and will be a pushover for well-placed mendicancy. It is not that they are being mean-spirited but it seems to be typical in poverty stricken families all over the planet that penurious family members or close acquaintances seek help from those with some wealth or perceived to have some wealth.

We employ a housekeeper who. over the past 12 years of her employment at our home, occasionally has financial crises, often regarding her financial obligations to the schools her children attend. She will come to us for money to handle these obligations from time to time and we never turn her down but the funds presented to her to solve recurring financal crises are always in the form of a loan which must be repaid from partial withholdings her weekly salary until the debt is satisfied. In all those 12 years, that rule has been inviolate. If we ever give anything to her or her family, which we often do generously, it is upon our own accord and for special occasions but never under her initiative as a supplicant . 

Watch out for seemingly affectionate names. My wife, who works closely with many poor and semi-poor indigenous people in Chiapas is known affectionally as tia or abuela among her indigenous friends and the relationships among all are amicable but never involve a gift of money, at times, perhaps, gifts of useful things such as clothing paraphernalia and that sort of thing but never money.


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## diablita

Hound Dog said:


> Yor must be cautious about this, diabalita, or you will become a "mark" if you are not already. Forget the school requirements because, in my opinion, that is not the issue. The issue is that, although you have chosen to live in a poor barrio, you are perceived by others living there as a well-to-do foreigner whether or not you are such and it matters not that you are a foreign immigrant or a Mexican National from the more privileged classes (most of whom would would _never, ever _move into a poverty-stricken barrio) those suffering from penury here in Mexico will hit you up for money if they perceive that you have resources and will be a pushover for well-placed mendicancy. It is not that they are being mean-spirited but it seems to be typical in poverty stricken families all over the planet that penurious family members or close acquaintances seek help from those with some wealth or perceived to have some wealth.
> 
> We employ a housekeeper who. over the past 12 years of her employment at our home, occasionally has financial crises, often regarding her financial obligations to the schools her children attend. She will come to us for money to handle these obligations from time to time and we never turn her down but the funds presented to her to solve recurring financal crises are always in the form of a loan which must be repaid from partial withholdings her weekly salary until the debt is satisfied. In all those 12 years, that rule has been inviolate. If we ever give anything to her or her family, which we often do generously, it is upon our own accord and for special occasions but never under her initiative as a supplicant .
> 
> Watch out for seemingly affectionate names. My wife, who works closely with many poor and semi-poor indigenous people in Chiapas is known affectionally as tia or abuela among her indigenous friends and the relationships among all are amicable but never involve a gift of money, at times, perhaps, gifts of useful things such as clothing paraphernalia and that sort of thing but never money.


I do not like or agree with your comment at all. It is nobody's business what I do with my money except mine. The hugs and kisses I receive from these kids and their families for helping them are payback enough although most do pay me back. Sometimes they don't but I don't fret over it. And by the way, my question was about educational expenses. I did not ask for advice on what I should or should not do in my community. If more people helped those less fortunate than them the world would be a better place.


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## caseyh

GARYJ65 said:


> In some cases, like yours, less restrictions is a good thing, some others, I dont't know, I would like to have a few more restrictions and fines. For example: littering


Very well put. 

There are a lot of trade offs and it depends where you live. 

You trade security walls for the right to paint them whatever color you want (and choose the brand of bottles to break in the top)

or

You trade quit clear nights full of stars for the security that comes with being an hour from town. 

or 

You trade the ridiculous hoa rules for the chickens that get into your dog food. 

The one who think the trade is good for them move, billions don't.


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## caseyh

I once heard a locals opinion on this. I was in Moyogalpa on Ometepe Island in Nicaragua. I was speaking to a native Nicaraguan that was raised in San Diego until he was a young teen. His family was deported back to Nicaragua for reasons I dont remember. A ****** in the crowd (maybe me) said something about freedom and the USA. 

He said, "******'s love to talk about freedom. I have seen it first hand but let me tell you something. I now live on an island with 40,000 other people. We have 6 cops, 2 cities and countless villages. The cops are all in Alta Gracias, they come here (Moyogalpa) once a week to meet the ferry but never go to Maderas (the eastern half of a figure 8 shaped island). People live their entire life on Maderas and never see one. We live in peace and we are free."

I almost cried. 

Sorry, I know Mexico is not Nicaragua but peasants life throughout Latin America is very similar and I feel the freedom the op mentioned where ever I go...especially off the beaten path.


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## citlali

What has the police got to do with freedom. The society in many indigenous culture is full of does and don´t. I have not noticed any great freedom amongst indigenous culture. They even have masters of ceremony in some groups that tell you when you can dance and with whom you can dance. I guess you have never met a huehuete from Oaxaca...In many groups people get drafted into community service , they call cargo and again not sure where you see freedom there. You have a lot to learn about Mexxico.


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## Longford

Indigenous communities have so many rules which inhabitants must follow ... or their homes may be burned or sacked and they're run-out of town for not going along. Not to mention vigilante justice, horribly and wrongly applied. Freedom? Not in my book. I don't let the line between reality and fantasy blurr, too often. I suggest others don't, either.


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## Dephender

I've only been here a few months and feel more free than I've ever been back in the US. The ratio of nice people is completely shifted here! Even with the language barrier, I still feel more like home here. Love It!


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## caseyh

citlali said:


> What has the police got to do with freedom. The society in many indigenous culture is full of does and don´t. I have not noticed any great freedom amongst indigenous culture. They even have masters of ceremony in some groups that tell you when you can dance and with whom you can dance. I guess you have never met a huehuete from Oaxaca...In many groups people get drafted into community service , they call cargo and again not sure where you see freedom there. You have a lot to learn about Mexxico.


First you also have a lot to learn. Lets start with how to spell Mexico.

Next, what does indigenous being drafted into service have to do with anything. The op is nothing about indigenous. My Nicaraguan friend was not indigenous. I doubt anyone posting here will ever be forced to live by indigenous rules.

Cops have everything to do with freedom because they are the ones authorized to take it away. In the USA they enforce HOA rules, ticket me once a year for my grass being to tall and everyday they get more authoritarian. The difference between the USA and Latin America is not that the rules don't exist, not that cops are all good guys, not that you have rights. INSTEAD it comes from lack of money to put a cop on every corner. Sometimes this results in chaos or anarchy. Sometimes it results in peace. Anyone who lives in peace without the help of law enforcement is free. If you dont understand that, you have a lot to learn about life!


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## caseyh

Longford said:


> Indigenous communities have so many rules which inhabitants must follow ... or their homes may be burned or sacked and they're run-out of town for not going along. Not to mention vigilante justice, horribly and wrongly applied. Freedom? Not in my book. I don't let the line between reality and fantasy blurr, too often. I suggest others don't, either.


I see a huge difference between how governments treat their oppressed and the life expats live. This thread is about how you feel when you are there. Are you implying you are afraid the indigenous are going to burn your house or chase you out of town or lynch you. 

I did not think so. 

I am really confused by all the negative comments....why did all of you move to Mexico?


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## Isla Verde

caseyh said:


> First you also have a lot to learn. Lets start with how to spell Mexico.


Caseyh, I think that you are the one who has a lot to learn about Mexico. (By the way, how long have you lived here?) Citlali has lived in this country for many years and knows more about Mexico than most of us who post here regularly. I'm sure citlali knows how to spell "Mexico" - have you ever heard of someone making a typo while posting a message?


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## citlali

Ni modo Isla Verde..I feel much freer in any place where my family is not , that may be the same for many here. If you do not have your own society restrictions and tabous and have no clue about the ones you live in or do not care then you could feel free in a total dictatorship..


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## citlali

My response was to the person going on how free Latin America was..oh please give us a break.

Frankly when I cannot go where I want to go the day I want to go , when I have to make plans to stay in a hotel because I am not sure I can get to the airport tthe day I need to leave, when I accomplish half of what I need to accomplish because many roads are blocked so there are delays by a few hours or a few days, I do not feel that I am that free.


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## caseyh

citlali said:


> My response was to the person going on how free Latin America was..oh please give us a break.


Latin America has twice the population of the USA but half it prison population. Those that keep going on about how free the USA is are the ones who need to give it a break. 




citlali said:


> Frankly when I cannot go where I want to go the day I want to go , when I have to make plans to stay in a hotel because I am not sure I can get to the airport tthe day I need to leave, when I accomplish half of what I need to accomplish because many roads are blocked so there are delays by a few hours or a few days, I do not feel that I am that free.


You are confusing dysfunctional with lack of freedom.


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## Longford

caseyh said:


> I see a huge difference between how governments treat their oppressed and the life expats live. This thread is about how you feel when you are there. Are you implying you are afraid the indigenous are going to burn your house or chase you out of town or lynch you.
> 
> I did not think so.
> 
> I am really confused by all the negative comments....why did all of you move to Mexico?


In forums such as this people respond to comments of others. If someone finds a response to their comments ... negative ... I'll suggest the maker of the original comment should examine what they said ... and why. The one way to avoid the "negative comments" is not to seemingly invite them.  Then again, that's the intent of some people ... so they can complain about it later. There's a term we use for that behavior on the internet.


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## citlali

Wether it is the government with their cops or other people who restrict my comings and goings or my actions I look at it as a lack of freedom I do not care if the cause is because the place is disfunctional or whatever, the results to me are the same : lack of freedom.


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## caseyh

Isla Verde said:


> Caseyh, I think that you are the one who has a lot to learn about Mexico. (By the way, how long have you lived here?) Citlali has lived in this country for many years and knows more about Mexico than most of us who post here regularly. I'm sure citlali knows how to spell "Mexico" - have you ever heard of someone making a typo while posting a message?


I suspect you know what they say about opinions. 

I don't live in Mexico. I have lived in Honduras and Costa Rica and visited Mexico many times. 

Of course people typo, but when you are trying to insult someones intelligence its best not to.


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## caseyh

citlali said:


> Wether it is the government with their cops or other people who restrict my comings and goings or my actions I look at it as a lack of freedom I do not care if the cause is because the place is disfunctional or whatever, the results to me are the same : lack of freedom.



Nobody ever restricted your movements PERIOD! You had to face the everyday ups and downs of life just like everyone else. 

A traffic free road to Walmart does not equal freedom.


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## Dephender

I do apologize if my perception of my stay here has inadvertantly began an argument. It could just be that I am an optimistic person in general. I apologize to anyone that may feel differently or has had a bad experiance here.


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## surfrider

diablita said:


> I do not like or agree with your comment at all. It is nobody's business what I do with my money except mine. The hugs and kisses I receive from these kids and their families for helping them are payback enough although most do pay me back. Sometimes they don't but I don't fret over it. And by the way, my question was about educational expenses. I did not ask for advice on what I should or should not do in my community. If more people helped those less fortunate than them the world would be a better place.


I agree with you sentence about helping less fortunate people - and I have volunteered doing just that since I was 14 years old. However, I have never given money to anyone, for I believe in that old saying that goes something like this:
feed a man for a day or teach a man how to farm and he will eat for a year. 

I had tried to give a woman money once when I was about 15 yrs. old and I insulted her pride and her feelings. That along with many other events have showed me that when a person works for the money they have a feeling of ownership and pride in receiving the money.

I do not think that HD was passing judgment on you just suggesting that maybe it is not really good for the person to receive "free" money. Things in life really are not free. But again no one is saying what you personally should or should not do, just giving comments about their personal thoughts on the subject, just as I have done. With no intention of judgment or harm to your feelings or life.:wave:


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## caseyh

Dephender said:


> I do apologize if my perception of my stay here has inadvertantly began an argument. It could just be that I am an optimistic person in general. I apologize to anyone that may feel differently or has had a bad experiance here.


Oh no, PLEASE DON'T BE, its not you fault. I am passionate, stubborn and argumentative. I don't think everyone was ready for that....lol

I also think that everyone is interpreting the question differently and thus has different opinions. Everyone is also passionate about the subject!

I think a lot of people get a sigh of relief when they get down there (the freedom you talk of). But life is hard and unfair...this is especially true for the oppressed in Latin America (the lack of freedom that keeps coming up). It is hard to forget the oppression of the poor when you have a nice house and a leisure lifestyle a block down the road. 

:sorry: but somebody had to agree with the op. I had a story about a local that agreed. Amazing how pissed people can get about that.


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## citlali

Caseyh
We do not have a Walmart where I live . I was working on a project with indigenous and people from the Mexican government not floating around looking at what to do with my money and see how rich I can get.
You seem to think, you know it all just move down here and you soon will find how smart you used to be.


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## Isla Verde

citlali said:


> Caseyh
> We do not have a Walmart where I live . I was working on a project with indigenous and people from the Mexican government not floating around looking at what to do with my money and see how rich I can get.
> You seem to think, you know it all just move down here and you soon will find how smart you used to be.


That's a good piece of advice for all of us, I think.


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## caseyh

citlali said:


> Caseyh
> We do not have a Walmart where I live . I was working on a project with indigenous and people from the Mexican government not floating around looking at what to do with my money and see how rich I can get.


I am glad to here that!

Please don't take my analogies so seriously or as an attack on you. You mentioned getting delayed and inconvenienced. Good roads and walmart reduce delays and provide convenience...thats all. 



citlali said:


> You seem to think, you know it all just move down here and you soon will find how smart you used to be.


Whats up with all the hostility and insults. You need to learn how to have a conversation with people who disagree. If you don't feel free in Mexico, OK. You made your point! I DO, THE OP DOES...you don't. I dont see how that makes you so smart and the rest of us stupid!


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## citlali

I can see your understanding of the language is not too great: here and hear? I am not a native speaker what is your excuse?


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## Isla Verde

caseyh said:


> I am glad to here that!
> 
> Please don't take my analogies so seriously or as an attack on you. You mentioned getting delayed and inconvenienced. Good roads and walmart reduce delays and provide convenience...thats all.
> 
> 
> 
> Whats up with all the hostility and insults. You need to learn how to have a conversation with people who disagree. If you don't feel free in Mexico, OK. You made your point! I DO, THE OP DOES...you don't. I dont see how that makes you so smart and the rest of us stupid!


I think that comments about feeling "free" in Mexico from someone who doesn't live here are a bit out of line. Once you've lived here for awhile (vacations don't really count), your comments about what life is like in Mexico may be listened to with a bit more respect. In any event, I ask all posters to cool it and refrain from personal attacks. Otherwise, I may have to use my mod super-powers and issue a few of the dreaded "infractions".


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## surfrider

Isla Verde said:


> I think that comments about feeling "free" in Mexico from someone who doesn't live here are a bit out of line. Once you've lived here for awhile (vacations don't really count), your comments about what life is like in Mexico may be listened to with a bit more respect. In any event, I ask all posters to cool it and refrain from personal attacks. Otherwise, I may have to use my mod super-powers and issue a few of the dreaded "infractions".


Isla would not be a bad idea to shut down this whole thing. I started this post but man it was never meant to be so personal, I was just looking at it as a simple yes I feel more free or no I do not feel more free. wow did this open up a lot of junk. sorry about that.


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## Isla Verde

surfrider said:


> Isla would not be a bad idea to shut down this whole thing. I started this post but man it was never meant to be so personal, I was just looking at it as a simple yes I feel more free or no I do not feel more free. wow did this open up a lot of junk. sorry about that.


I'll consider shutting down this thread if any more nasty messages are posted. The problem with writing about "freedom" is that it's such a difficult thing to define. But there's no need for you to feel sorry about having started the discussion, which has resulted in some interesting comments being posted.


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## lagoloo

"Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose" (Song: Me and Bobby McGee) Remember that one?
Without getting all Zen here, it seems that one's personal sense of "freedom" may rest on the degree of "attachment" we have to certain environments, conditions, attitudes, expectations and even forms of government. I did feel "free" back in the U.S.A. and I feel "free" in Mexico.

I didn't leave the states to escape from anything, nor did I move to Mexico under the impression that there was new form of "freedom" here. Some of my reasons were (blush) purely economic and the rest was an itchy foot wanting to try a new adventure. Both have worked out well.

I would not feel at all "free" in some of the Arab countries where women are considered a lower form of humanity and the laws are repressive in that regard. 

We don't have to agree with others' opinions. However, we can treat each other with respect even while we disagree. It is that respectful disagreement that makes for an interesting, stimulating discussion. Otherwise, the board would get b-o-r-i-n-g. Let's don't do that.


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## RVGRINGO

True freedom can be found in the middle of the Pacific Ocean on a sailboat without radio, GPS or other electronics. Just you and the universe! It was wonderful and I only wish I could do it again.


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## lagoloo

And.......just a thought on connections........I feel a lot freer without a cell phone along.

I keep one in the car, for emergencies, but have now accumulated 2,340 minutes on it.

This may sound radical, but the more "connectivity" we acquire, the less free we are.
Facebook? With that, we are connected to the entire world, including, of course, you know who: the people who want to know where we are, what we are talking about and ideally, what we are thinking.
That sailboat sounds appealing!
(Chuckle)


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## Isla Verde

lagoloo said:


> And.......just a thought on connections........I feel a lot freer without a cell phone along.
> 
> I keep one in the car, for emergencies, but have now accumulated 2,340 minutes on it.
> 
> This may sound radical, but the more "connectivity" we acquire, the less free we are.
> Facebook? With that, we are connected to the entire world, including, of course, you know who: the people who want to know where we are, what we are talking about and ideally, what we are thinking.
> That sailboat sounds appealing!
> (Chuckle)


I was recently on vacation for a week in another part of Mexico and only checked my email a couple of times while I was away from my computer. It definitely felt good! I have a Facebook account but never use it - I spend enough time online as it is!


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