# Applying for EU Family Permit for Germany and UK with expired Schengen Visa?



## lushelectric

Hi there

I am married to a British Citizen and as he doesn't satisfy the financial requirement at present so to apply for a visa for me to be with him in the uk, we decided to go via the Surinder Singh route, exercising treaty rights in Germany and then return in a few months. He is currently still in the UK, however I left the UK in June when my visa expired and have been in germany for the last 2 months.

My husband is planning to join me in a couple of weeks now, however my schengen visa expires 2 weeks before he finishes up at work and comes. I have also made an appointment at the Berlin Immigration Office for a EU family resident card, however, the earliest appointment is a month after my visa has already expired. 

I had a few questions in relation to this.

Does it matter that I was here before him for 3 months whilst we figured out what we would do, and I had no choice but to leave after my visa expired? We didn't travel together.

I read that making the appointment before your prior visa expires is sufficient, is this correct? My worry is having an a record of overstaying a visa having an effect later on

Would it be possible to just go into the immigration office as soon as he arrives to apply for this permit without an appointment and wait. And does this permit to allow me to work ?

Is there the family permit and a seperate residency card?

My other worry is having to register an address together before the appointment as it may take some time to find a place..
And he is likely to go back to his old job in the UK in a few months so we probably won't get a permanent place, is a sublet agreement with both our names on it and a joint bank account in Germany sufficient to show we lived together?

Does he also have to have a job/savings before I can apply for the family permit? The form seems to ask that and for payslips, but my visa will have expired so there is no time and I believe he will be covered for the first 3 months on the EU card for healthcare so will I be also or need to have health insurance also?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated, the german webpages I have googletranslated are not very clear.

Many Thanks


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## Joppa

I'm moving this to the German forum for better response.


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## ALKB

lushelectric said:


> Hi there
> 
> I am married to a British Citizen and as he doesn't satisfy the financial requirement at present so to apply for a visa for me to be with him in the uk, we decided to go via the Surinder Singh route, exercising treaty rights in Germany and then return in a few months. He is currently still in the UK, however I left the UK in June when my visa expired and have been in germany for the last 2 months.
> 
> My husband is planning to join me in a couple of weeks now, however my schengen visa expires 2 weeks before he finishes up at work and comes. I have also made an appointment at the Berlin Immigration Office for a EU family resident card, however, the earliest appointment is a month after my visa has already expired.
> 
> I had a few questions in relation to this.
> 
> Does it matter that I was here before him for 3 months whilst we figured out what we would do, and I had no choice but to leave after my visa expired? We didn't travel together.
> 
> I read that making the appointment before your prior visa expires is sufficient, is this correct? My worry is having an a record of overstaying a visa having an effect later on
> 
> Would it be possible to just go into the immigration office as soon as he arrives to apply for this permit without an appointment and wait. And does this permit to allow me to work ?
> 
> Is there the family permit and a seperate residency card?
> 
> My other worry is having to register an address together before the appointment as it may take some time to find a place..
> And he is likely to go back to his old job in the UK in a few months so we probably won't get a permanent place, is a sublet agreement with both our names on it and a joint bank account in Germany sufficient to show we lived together?
> 
> Does he also have to have a job/savings before I can apply for the family permit? The form seems to ask that and for payslips, but my visa will have expired so there is no time and I believe he will be covered for the first 3 months on the EU card for healthcare so will I be also or need to have health insurance also?
> 
> Any advice would be greatly appreciated, the german webpages I have googletranslated are not very clear.
> 
> Many Thanks



Oh dear.

Where have you been living for the last two months and why can you not register yourself and your husband at this address?

Would it be possible for him to come to Berlin for a few days to register and apply for your Aufenthaltskarte before your 90 days are up?

In the first 3 months your husband does not need to have a job but after 90 days he needs to exercise treaty rights: have a job, be self-employed or study.

So it would be highly desirable to apply for your permit before your 90 days are up.

I do not know how the Ausländerbehörde would count your 90 days since your husband is not here, yet.

I would try to avoid having a gap between your 90 day stay as a tourist and applying - they might not notice, but they can cause all sorts of problems if they do. 

Since you can't apply for a UK spouse visa under current legislation, I would be very careful not to mess up your other route in and what you have been telling us so far does not sound like a textbook application, which might lead to extra scrutiny of your case.

Do you have an entry stamp in your passport? 

It is possible to just show up at the Ausländerbehörde and wait, just be prepared to wait a few hours. I was never under the impression that the EU section of the Berlin Ausländerbehörde is particularly busy - the non-EU section often had a 50 meter queue while the EU entrance was always completely deserted. This might have changed meanwhile, I haven't needed to go there in the last two years.

In general, you should get your Aufenthaltskarte (German equivalent to the UK family permit) three weeks after applying and it gives you unrestricted access to the German job market.

EDIT: A sublet is fine. You need to show your joint registration with the local municipality, that will be your proof of address and proof of living together.


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## lushelectric

ALKB said:


> Oh dear.
> 
> Where have you been living for the last two months and why can you not register yourself and your husband at this address?
> 
> Would it be possible for him to come to Berlin for a few days to register and apply for your Aufenthaltskarte before your 90 days are up?
> 
> In the first 3 months your husband does not need to have a job but after 90 days he needs to exercise treaty rights: have a job, be self-employed or study.
> 
> So it would be highly desirable to apply for your permit before your 90 days are up.
> 
> I do not know how the Ausländerbehörde would count your 90 days since your husband is not here, yet.
> 
> I would try to avoid having a gap between your 90 day stay as a tourist and applying - they might not notice, but they can cause all sorts of problems if they do.
> 
> Since you can't apply for a UK spouse visa under current legislation, I would be very careful not to mess up your other route in and what you have been telling us so far does not sound like a textbook application, which might lead to extra scrutiny of your case.
> 
> Do you have an entry stamp in your passport?
> 
> It is possible to just show up at the Ausländerbehörde and wait, just be prepared to wait a few hours. I was never under the impression that the EU section of the Berlin Ausländerbehörde is particularly busy - the non-EU section often had a 50 meter queue while the EU entrance was always completely deserted. This might have changed meanwhile, I haven't needed to go there in the last two years.
> 
> In general, you should get your Aufenthaltskarte (German equivalent to the UK family permit) three weeks after applying and it gives you unrestricted access to the German job market.
> 
> EDIT: A sublet is fine. You need to show your joint registration with the local municipality, that will be your proof of address and proof of living together.


Thank you, now I am a bit worried, clearly I have misunderstood some things

He is working until a few days after my visa here expires, and then will come a few days after.. 

I see what you mean about him not being here and how they would view the overstay..but there were no earlier appointments for at least a month when I tried to book online, and my initial appointment was for a german spouse so I had to rebook when I realised

I was in Italy for a few weeks before I came to Berlin, I have an entry stamp for italy, showing when I entered the schengen zone but not for here..

I have been staying with friends for 2 months whilst we figured out what to do, so haven't registered an address as of yet as I haven't had a permanent one-does my husband not have to be here to do it himself? I can register myself soon and then make an appointment for him as soon as he arrives..

And go to the immigration office next week and see what they say

What kind of trouble can I get into? Might they refuse the visa when we go in?
The only other thing I could think of would be to leave out of schengen and then arrive at the same time as him to not risk the consequences of overstaying

Any further advice would be helpful

Thanks again


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## ALKB

lushelectric said:


> Thank you, now I am a bit worried, clearly I have misunderstood some things
> 
> He is working until a few days after my visa here expires, and then will come a few days after..
> 
> I see what you mean about him not being here and how they would view the overstay..but there were no earlier appointments for at least a month when I tried to book online, and my initial appointment was for a german spouse so I had to rebook when I realised
> 
> I was in Italy for a few weeks before I came to Berlin, I have an entry stamp for italy, showing when I entered the schengen zone but not for here..
> 
> I have been staying with friends for 2 months whilst we figured out what to do, so haven't registered an address as of yet as I haven't had a permanent one-does my husband not have to be here to do it himself? I can register myself soon and then make an appointment for him as soon as he arrives..
> 
> And go to the immigration office next week and see what they say
> 
> What kind of trouble can I get into? Might they refuse the visa when we go in?
> The only other thing I could think of would be to leave out of schengen and then arrive at the same time as him to not risk the consequences of overstaying
> 
> Any further advice would be helpful
> 
> Thanks again


I _think_ you will most probably be fine.

They might just look at your passport, realise that you didn't need a visa to enter Germany, look at the date on your registration and take it from there. Australia is not exactly a high risk country.

If they see the Italian stamp and ask questions, I'd state that you were a visitor with friends and arranged for the first possible appointment after your husband joined you in Berlin. Don't answer questions they don't ask.

You have an independent right to stay for 90 days out of 180, so a visa run of leaving and coming back would not work, you'd have to wait three months to return. 

I am just a bit concerned that somebody might notice the short period in between your 90 days being up and your husband arriving because technically you will be staying in the country illegally.

On the other hand, they can't really tell when your husband arrived unless they enquire with the border police.

It's just all a bit messy with quite a bit of variables and what ifs.

I always tell people to start getting their documents together and making appointments as soon as they arrive to have it all done and dusted within 90 days.


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## lushelectric

ALKB said:


> I _think_ you will most probably be fine.
> 
> They might just look at your passport, realise that you didn't need a visa to enter Germany, look at the date on your registration and take it from there. Australia is not exactly a high risk country.
> 
> If they see the Italian stamp and ask questions, I'd state that you were a visitor with friends and arranged for the first possible appointment after your husband joined you in Berlin. Don't answer questions they don't ask.
> 
> You have an independent right to stay for 90 days out of 180, so a visa run of leaving and coming back would not work, you'd have to wait three months to return.
> 
> I am just a bit concerned that somebody might notice the short period in between your 90 days being up and your husband arriving because technically you will be staying in the country illegally.
> 
> On the other hand, they can't really tell when your husband arrived unless they enquire with the border police.
> 
> It's just all a bit messy with quite a bit of variables and what ifs.
> 
> I always tell people to start getting their documents together and making appointments as soon as they arrive to have it all done and dusted within 90 days.


Thanks, I am going to the immigration office with my german friend to translate to see if they could extend my visa a few weeks and let them know my husband is arriving before the appointment I was able to get and will register an address for myself this week too

Will he need a registered address or just me as I'm applying for the permit and he would've just arrived?


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## ALKB

lushelectric said:


> Thanks, I am going to the immigration office with my german friend to translate to see if they could extend my visa a few weeks and let them know my husband is arriving before the appointment I was able to get and will register an address for myself this week too
> 
> Will he need a registered address or just me as I'm applying for the permit and he would've just arrived?


Since the basis on which you apply for your residence card is that you are living with your EEA husband, I would definitely register him as soon as he arrives and get a fresh Meldebescheinigung with both your names on it. He has to register within 7 days of arriving anyhow.


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## lushelectric

ALKB said:


> Since the basis on which you apply for your residence card is that you are living with your EEA husband, I would definitely register him as soon as he arrives and get a fresh Meldebescheinigung with both your names on it. He has to register within 7 days of arriving anyhow.


Thanks, I went to the immigration office today and they said they could extend my visa by 2 weeks but I will have to go in the day it expires and that we will have to go in by the end of the 2 weeks and we must have a registered address together to be able to apply for the family permit then..


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## strawberries82

good luck.


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## lushelectric

Does anybody have any idea about the amount in savings he would be required to have for me to get the family permit seeing as he won't be employed as soon as he arrives?
Ca I put my savings toward it too?

Many thanks


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## ALKB

lushelectric said:


> Does anybody have any idea about the amount in savings he would be required to have for me to get the family permit seeing as he won't be employed as soon as he arrives?
> Ca I put my savings toward it too?
> 
> Many thanks


There is no financial requirement for the EEA family permit.

They should not ask you for any financial information including account statements.

After three months they can ask your husband to prove that he is employed (to exercise treaty rights) but that can be a part time job and there is no minimum income requirement.


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## lushelectric

ALKB said:


> There is no financial requirement for the EEA family permit.
> 
> They should not ask you for any financial information including account statements.
> 
> After three months they can ask your husband to prove that he is employed (to exercise treaty rights) but that can be a part time job and there is no minimum income requirement.


The lady at immigration told my german friend he would need to show adequate savings but she said she didn't know how much so I'm a but confused, this might be for the residence card? Can I work with the family permit? 
Thanks


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## lushelectric

ALKB said:


> EDIT: A sublet is fine. You need to show your joint registration with the local municipality, that will be your proof of address and proof of living together.


Had a question about subletting, if we changed address and had 2 apartments we subletted in the time we were here, would it be best to reregister or have one registered address, the initial one? Thanks


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## Nononymous

I imagine it would be best to abmeld from the old apartment and anmeld with the new (i.e. re-register) because that's what you're required to do. So you're not incorrectly registered when you go to the Ausländerbehörde.


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## ALKB

lushelectric said:


> Had a question about subletting, if we changed address and had 2 apartments we subletted in the time we were here, would it be best to reregister or have one registered address, the initial one? Thanks


You need to reregister within 7 days of moving, as it is the law for everybody.

Ausländerbehörde has access to the registry, so no need to notify them.


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## ALKB

lushelectric said:


> The lady at immigration told my german friend he would need to show adequate savings but she said she didn't know how much so I'm a but confused, this might be for the residence card? Can I work with the family permit?
> Thanks


Very strange.

Here:

Aufenthaltskarte für Familienangehörige von Bürgern der EU (außer Deutschland) und des EWR - Dienstleistungen - Service Berlin - Berlin.de

it does not say anything about finances and they should not ask as per European law. 

You need:

- your passport
-a biometric passport size photograph
- proof of your relationship to your EEA husband (marriage certificate)
- proof that you registered your domicile (Meldebescheinigung) with both your and your husband's names on it

- your husband has to accompany you to your appointment

I'd download the PDF file in the link above, print it out and take it with you to the appointment. If the case worker asks for financial information, show the print out and /or ask to speak to the head of department.

Residence card and family permit are the same thing, just different terms.

You have unrestricted access to the job market with your residence card.

Under 'Anmerkungen' (comments) it will say: Erwerbstätigkeit gestattet = you are allowed to work


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## lushelectric

ALKB said:


> Very strange.
> 
> Here:
> 
> Aufenthaltskarte für Familienangehörige von Bürgern der EU (außer Deutschland) und des EWR - Dienstleistungen - Service Berlin - Berlin.de
> 
> it does not say anything about finances and they should not ask as per European law.
> 
> You need:
> 
> - your passport
> -a biometric passport size photograph
> - proof of your relationship to your EEA husband (marriage certificate)
> - proof that you registered your domicile (Meldebescheinigung) with both your and your husband's names on it
> 
> - your husband has to accompany you to your appointment
> 
> I'd download the PDF file in the link above, print it out and take it with you to the appointment. If the case worker asks for financial information, show the print out and /or ask to speak to the head of department.
> 
> Residence card and family permit are the same thing, just different terms.
> 
> You have unrestricted access to the job market with your residence card.
> 
> Under 'Anmerkungen' (comments) it will say: Erwerbstätigkeit gestattet = you are allowed to work


Thanks for that, will do 

In relation to the anmeldung, will we use that as proof of living together when applying under eu law to go back to the uk so i'd include 2 of them if i had 2 seperate ones or better to just include one? Will that have any weighing on the application?


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## Nononymous

No idea. But if the length of time you've been living together is a factor, then two registrations would cover a longer span of time than one, would they not?


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## ALKB

lushelectric said:


> Thanks for that, will do
> 
> In relation to the anmeldung, will we use that as proof of living together when applying under eu law to go back to the uk so i'd include 2 of them if i had 2 seperate ones or better to just include one? Will that have any weighing on the application?


Yes, you will need the Meldebescheinigung when you apply for the EEA FP as proof of address. I'd get two at the least since you are actually supposed to carry that and your passport for ID. (Since you don't have ID cards that show your German address).


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## lushelectric

I got my 6 month visa 

Have done some research on the German tax system and there is a tax free threshold of about 8000 euros. Does anyone know how that would affect Surinder Singth and the requirement that my husband pays tax in another EU country if he won't be taxed for the first 8000 euros? How would you get around this threshold?

Thanks


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## ALKB

lushelectric said:


> I got my 6 month visa
> 
> Have done some research on the German tax system and there is a tax free threshold of about 8000 euros. Does anyone know how that would affect Surinder Singth and the requirement that my husband pays tax in another EU country if he won't be taxed for the first 8000 euros? How would you get around this threshold?
> 
> Thanks


It doesn't really matter how much (or how little) he earns - as long as it is an official job with official payslips. I have heard of successful Surinder Singh cases in which the EEA partner had a part time job paying 500 EUR per month for three months.

EDIT: Congratulations on your visa, by the way


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## lushelectric

Can anyone tell me whether my husband can accept a freelance job for the first 2 weeks to count towards the 3 months of employment or does it have to be the same job continously for 3 months? He will bill the company and be paid, the work going until the end of the month, will give time to look for another job. Thanks


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## kakabueze

*eea fp*

I am a British Citizen and i relocate to germany with my non EU member and our one year old son also a British to exercise my treaty right under surinder singh rule. I have been here since six months ago and i just worked with four months payslips. Can we apply for the EEA FP now? ad i hope they won't make any problem as my husband shenghen visa had expired? what are the documents we need to give them as the supporting documents?


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## kakabueze

I am a British Citizen and i am exercising my treaty right in Germany with my son also a British and my Non EU husband that entered Germany with a shenghen visa. I have four months payslips at the moment and we are planning to apply for EEA FP under surinder Singh rule... We both possess AOK health insurance card.. I hope they won't make problem at the UK submission center here in Germany as my husband visa had expired? What are the documents they will need from us? We all registered at the German local office immediately we entered Germany


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