# Urgent advice needed re paying flat deposit



## rossob (Jun 17, 2014)

Hi guys,

I have just moved to Madrid, and have been living out of a hotel for two weeks as I arrange flat viewings, mainly through Idealista. I have now found a flat and agreed to terms, but have yet to sign the contract or pay the deposit. I'm looking to do this all by tomorrow afternoon.

The flat is through a private owner, not an agency, and he is looking for a 3 month deposit and the first month's rent up front. 3 months is not as bad as it seemed at first, since there is no agency fee (of the flat I have looked at, the agency often wanted 2 months deposit and 1 month agency fee).

He wants this first payment in cash, however, with future payments being done via a regular bank transfer.

First, should I avoid paying the deposit and first month's rent in cash at all costs? Should I take this a red flag, or is it standard practise in Spain? The flat is nice, in very good condition and well furnished, and the owner seems trustworthy (it was him and his Dad present at the viewing).

Also, since I am not renting through an agency, what kind of safety precautions would you advise taking? I mean in terms of establishing that he is who he says he is, that he owns the flat, and so on? What are the most crucial things I should request from him?

The contract will be in Spanish, but I will be taking this home to translate and thoroughly go over before signing anything.

Any advice or comments are very much appreciated!


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Sounds fishy. Most deposits are one month's rent.


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## Trubrit (Nov 24, 2010)

Absolutely outrageous, just keep looking.


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## rossob (Jun 17, 2014)

Ah thanks guys, not sounding good 

Is there anything I can do from my side to confirm identity, like a public registry of flat owners?

I think I will have to ask him to change to 2 months deposit and a bank transfer for the first payment. Does that sound sensible?


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## Trubrit (Nov 24, 2010)

After having 5 different rentals in Spain I have never been asked for cash, just don't do it no matter how much you like the flat, there are hundreds more available.


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## xgarb (May 6, 2011)

how long is the contract?

Maybe you could confirm ownership by getting a Nota Simple: http://www.registradores.org/en/nota_simple.jsp


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## rossob (Jun 17, 2014)

The contract is for 10 months -- he initially wanted 1 year.


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## rossob (Jun 17, 2014)

xgarb said:


> how long is the contract?
> 
> Maybe you could confirm ownership by getting a Nota Simple: Simple land note


Thanks for the link xgarb, I will look into using this.


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

rossob said:


> Ah thanks guys, not sounding good
> 
> Is there anything I can do from my side to confirm identity, like a public registry of flat owners?
> *
> I think I will have to ask him to change to 2 months deposit and a bank transfer for the first payment. Does that sound sensible?*


Nope.

Sounds like he's trying to keep his rental income under the table and that he needs cash. I really don't like that you were asked for _three_ of the ten months' rent. I really think he/she is trying to pull a fast one.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

rossob said:


> The contract is for 10 months -- he initially wanted 1 year.


Is it you or he that wants only a 10 month contract?

If the contract says 'temporary' anywhere then really all bets are off as he does not have to follow the LAU (the law) regarding any issues.

I too think 3 months is a bit steep but an not surprised by him asking for cash - Spain is a cash society it's just us Brits who do things differently.


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## rossob (Jun 17, 2014)

Thanks elenetxu.

Yes, thinking about it 3 months of a short term contract does sound a bit off. My initial thought was he was protecting himself against maximum foreseeable damage, as the flat is in good condition. But I can see what you mean, it does kind of sound like he just needs cash.

If anyone is interested to see, or can glean any information from the ad, the flat I'm talking about can be seen at the following address: alquiler de piso en calle bastero, 17. madrid


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## rossob (Jun 17, 2014)

snikpoh said:


> Is it you or he that wants only a 10 month contract?
> 
> If the contract says 'temporary' anywhere then really all bets are off as he does not have to follow the LAU (the law) regarding any issues.
> 
> I too think 3 months is a bit steep but an not surprised by him asking for cash - Spain is a cash society it's just us Brits who do things differently.


It was me that negotiated the contract down to 10 months, and he was hesitant to do that at first. He was happy to reduce the rent a bit though when I asked (by 20€/month).


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## brocher (Mar 21, 2011)

elenetxu said:


> Nope.
> 
> Sounds like he's trying to keep his rental income under the table and that he needs cash. I really don't like that you were* asked for three of the ten months*' rent. I really think he/she is trying to pull a fast one.


It wouldn't be so bad if he was asking for 3 mths rent, but it's three months deposit.

No way should you pay more than one months rent as the deposit. You can pretty much be assured that you would never see that money again, as although it shouldn't be, many landlords try to avoid repaying the deposit when you leave, to the extent that most people just withhold their last rental payment.


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## rossob (Jun 17, 2014)

brocher said:


> It wouldn't be so bad if he was asking for 3 mths rent, but it's three months deposit.
> 
> No way should you pay more than one months rent as the deposit. You can pretty much be assured that you would never see that money again, as although it shouldn't be, many landlords try to avoid repaying the deposit when you leave, to the extent that most people just withhold their last rental payment.


Yep, I have had my deposit withheld from me before for dubious reasons before (in Scotland). Thankfully now Scotland has the safe deposit laws, so it seems to be better in that regard (I'm expecting my full deposit back for the flat I've just left). But my gut says you're right about the risk of not seeing the money again.


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## SweetHome (Sep 1, 2014)

Hi,

Usually you have to pay 1 month of deposit for the appartment and 1 more if it's furnish. But it's not weird people try to get more. If you accept it's up to you.

All the local Governments in Spain have especific departments where owners have to deliver the deposits of rentals. It's totally illegal that owners keep the money of deposits. When you rent directly with the owner or with an agency, be sure they will make this deposit. It's the only way you can be sure to have your money back when you leave the appartment and besides when you go to make the registration in Town Hall they probably ask you bring the document of that department with the contract.

Pay the first month in cash is usual. If you go to some agency to sign the contract, you will have to bring in cash the deposit and the first month. BUT they have to give you a receipt, not just for the first month, the deposit too. A legal receipt has to be wrotten the name of the owner, his NIF, the amount and concept and his legal signature (It has to be the same in his identification document). NEVER give money without a legal receipt.

I told before in this forum, all official documents in Spain have to be in spanish. So my advice is that you go with someone who speaks spanish. Usually you can find in the contract some clausule about what happens if you leave the appertment before time (In your case, 10 months). They probably try you pay one month in that situation. Try they accept change the clausule for some like you have to notificate that you're leaving the place one month before.

Another important think, all the appartments with furniture, when you sign the contract has to be a list of everything is in the appartment, be sure of that, so when you finnish the rental they can't tell that you took anything of the place.

Good luck!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

SweetHome said:


> Hi,
> 
> Usually you have to pay 1 month of deposit for the appartment and 1 more if it's furnish. But it's not weird people try to get more. If you accept it's up to you.
> 
> ...



just because it's illegal , doesn't mean it doesn't happen - ime the majority of owners in my area look upon the deposit as a 'gift' 


the chances of getting a deposit back are slim to nonexistent - even when you have a proper legal contract, many owners will find 'damage' 


there's a proforma of a long term contract in the section about renting in our http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...-living-spain/2725-faqs-lots-useful-info.html

it sounds as if rossob wants a temporary/fixed term contract though - is that right rossob?


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## rossob (Jun 17, 2014)

SweetHome said:


> Hi,
> 
> Usually you have to pay 1 month of deposit for the appartment and 1 more if it's furnish. But it's not weird people try to get more. If you accept it's up to you.
> 
> ...


Thanks SweetHome, that is very detailed and helpful information about what I should look out for legally.

It sounds like the specifics of my situation make it less unusual for the deposit to be so high than usual, since it is a furnished apartment (although obviously it is still high).

I also like the idea that I could make sure the deposit goes correctly to the government department, now that I'm armed with that knowledge, and of requesting a receipt for any transaction made. And it seems paying in cash, although highly undesirable, is at least not unheard of.

Thanks everyone, all the feedback on this thread has given me a much more informed perspective, and I'll be able to chew this over before making any final decisions about the flat


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## rossob (Jun 17, 2014)

xabiachica said:


> just because it's illegal , doesn't mean it doesn't happen - ime the majority of owners in my area look upon the deposit as a 'gift'
> 
> 
> the chances of getting a deposit back are slim to nonexistent - even when you have a proper legal contract, many owners will find 'damage'
> ...


I will read that link re long term contracts, thanks! And good point about the distinction between what's legal and what actually happens.

I am looking for a fixed term contract, which turns into a rolling month-by-month contract after the fixed term.

Also re the point about the contract being in Spanish, I am having the owner send me a copy of it by email so I can spend time to translate and understand it tonight, ahead of any meeting tomorrow if I were to go ahead.


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## SweetHome (Sep 1, 2014)

xabiachica said:


> just because it's illegal , doesn't mean it doesn't happen - ime the majority of owners in my area look upon the deposit as a 'gift'
> 
> 
> the chances of getting a deposit back are slim to nonexistent - even when you have a proper legal contract, many owners will find 'damage'
> ...



It's not just illegal, actually is really silly that owners don't do that. 

First because they could pay even the 50% of the deposit to the Government as ticket. And secon, because when they deliver the deposits they get a really important think; an insurance wich pay the rent to the owner if the tenant doesn't pay. And that's really useful for owners, since you can be without pay an entire year before a judge put you out of the place.

Anyway this is a procedure barely new and people are not too informed about it.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

SweetHome said:


> It's not just illegal, actually is really silly that owners don't do that.
> 
> First because they could pay even the 50% of the deposit to the Government as ticket. And secon, because when they deliver the deposits they get a really important think; an insurance wich pay the rent to the owner if the tenant doesn't pay. And that's really useful for owners, since you can be without pay an entire year before a judge put you out of the place.
> 
> Anyway this is a procedure barely new and people are not too informed about it.


with the change to the law last year if the contract is registered with land registry, the tenant only has to miss one month rent before action can be taken - & it also protects the tenant in that they can't be evicted if the landlord doesn't pay the mortgage & the property is repossessed - or if it is sold 


half the landlords round here probably don't declare the income from the property - I know my landlord wouldn't be if I wasn't claiming tax relief on it 

my last landlord was _very _upset when he discovered that I was doing so


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## SweetHome (Sep 1, 2014)

xabiachica said:


> with the change to the law last year if the contract is registered with land registry, the tenant only has to miss one month rent before action can be taken - & it also protects the tenant in that they can't be evicted if the landlord doesn't pay the mortgage & the property is repossessed - or if it is sold
> 
> 
> half the landlords round here probably don't declare the income from the property - I know my landlord wouldn't be if I wasn't claiming tax relief on it
> ...


It's not the same when the owners can start legal actions than how many time needs the legal process 

Anyway I'm not here to argue with you about how bad is people or how many illegal thinks they do, I was just giving some tools to this user. If he uses the information to protect himself legally, perfect. 

Good luck!


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

brocher said:


> *It wouldn't be so bad if he was asking for 3 mths rent, but it's three months deposit.*
> 
> No way should you pay more than one months rent as the deposit. You can pretty much be assured that you would never see that money again, as although it shouldn't be, many landlords try to avoid repaying the deposit when you leave, to the extent that most people just withhold their last rental payment.


That's what I meant. I guess I don't speak English that well right now.




OP, here's some interesting info: 

_según el artículo 36 de la ley de arrendamiento urbanos, “será obligatoria la exigencia y prestación de fianza en metálico, en cantidad equivalente a una mensualidad de renta en el arrendamiento de viviendas y de dos en el arrendamiento para uso distinto del de vivienda”_ from la fianza en el alquiler de una vivienda es obligatoria, pero no debe ser abusiva â€” idealista.com/news (Date: 2012)


La devolución de la fianza en los arrendamientos - Eurojuris España - Eurojuris España


This one is especially important for you to read, given that it's about Madrid: 
Fianzas de arrendamiento - Portal de Vivienda


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## kimuyen (Aug 8, 2013)

rossob said:


> ... he is looking for a 3 month deposit and the first month's rent up front. 3 months is not as bad as it seemed at first, since there is no agency fee (of the flat I have looked at, the agency often wanted 2 months deposit and 1 month agency fee).


We read the new rental law when we were viewing and signing a contract last month to make sure we knew what we were doing or should not be doing. Although the law said owner can charge up to two months of deposit if the flat is furnished, all owners we encountered here in Barcelona asked for 2 months up to 6 months for deposit. Of course we did not even entertain those in the upper end. In our case, we did pay two months deposit as we moved from the US without a work contract and the owner viewed us as more risky. (I think regardless of the situation, 2 months is the customary.) The owner put one month as deposit and the other month as "garantía". So what the law says is one thing, what is customary is another. We paid everything via bank transfer. As someone mentioned in the past; should the issue arise and you need to prove that you did pay rent (or deposit), you have no paper trail with paying cash.


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## rossob (Jun 17, 2014)

elenetxu said:


> That's what I meant. I guess I don't speak English that well right now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks elenetxu, I've had a read through and these are really good references to have!


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## rossob (Jun 17, 2014)

SweetHome said:


> It's not the same when the owners can start legal actions than how many time needs the legal process
> 
> Anyway I'm not here to argue with you about how bad is people or how many illegal thinks they do, I was just giving some tools to this user. If he uses the information to protect himself legally, perfect.
> 
> Good luck!


I have used the information you gave in negotiations with the landlord tonight, thanks! The landlord won't budge on the 3 months deposit, but he has assured me I would have a legal receipt for both payments, and the deposit won't be held by him. I have a few other flats to go view tomorrow, so hopefully I will have options.


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