# Health Care during Pregnancy in CHCH



## NZ4me

Hi,

My wife will be 19 weeks pregnant when we arrive in NZ in February. She will need an ultrasound and "normal" tests done once we arrive. Can anyone give me advice on how to start the process? Do we need a family doctor first? Are they easy to find? (often in Canada it takes some searching to find one that is accepting new patients) WHat is the process for finding a LMC? 

We are concerned that we won't be able to make the arrangements soon enough to get the various procedures done at the appropriate times, especially if there are waiting lists, etc.

Any links or advice would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,

Bob

ps - we are both on 2+ year work visas and are therefore eligible for public coverage.


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## topcat83

NZ4me said:


> Hi,
> 
> My wife will be 19 weeks pregnant when we arrive in NZ in February. She will need an ultrasound and "normal" tests done once we arrive. Can anyone give me advice on how to start the process? Do we need a family doctor first? Are they easy to find? (often in Canada it takes some searching to find one that is accepting new patients) WHat is the process for finding a LMC?
> 
> We are concerned that we won't be able to make the arrangements soon enough to get the various procedures done at the appropriate times, especially if there are waiting lists, etc.
> 
> Any links or advice would be greatly appreciated!
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Bob
> 
> ps - we are both on 2+ year work visas and are therefore eligible for public coverage.


Hi Bob - and congratulations to you and your wife! (and to the imminent new little Kiwi!)

I suggest as soon as you get here you register with a local doctor. You'll be able to get a list at the library. Once in the system, they'll get things moving for you. 

It might be an idea to see if anyone else out there has had experience of prenatal & maternity care in CCh - like everywhere else, some hospitals can be better than others so a recommendation is good. Then you can plan to live in the right area that covers that particular hospital, and make your preference known to the GP.


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## Siouxzee

Hi Everyone
Can anyone provide information on giving birth in New Zealand.
In South Africa, you see your gynae once a month during pregnancy and generally have an ultrasound to check heartbeat and growth.
At 12 and 20wks you have the major scans.
When giving birth your gynae is there and you are able to request an epidural.
Is New Zealand the same?


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## topcat83

Siouxzee said:


> Hi Everyone
> Can anyone provide information on giving birth in New Zealand.
> In South Africa, you see your gynae once a month during pregnancy and generally have an ultrasound to check heartbeat and growth.
> At 12 and 20wks you have the major scans.
> When giving birth your gynae is there and you are able to request an epidural.
> Is New Zealand the same?


H there

Yes it sounds similar - all of this is provided by the Health Service for those that qualify. Don't expect a gynae doctor to be present every second of the birth unless there are difficulties - if everything is going straightforward there will be well qualified midwives looking after you.


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## lisamct

Siouxzee said:


> Hi Everyone
> Can anyone provide information on giving birth in New Zealand.
> In South Africa, you see your gynae once a month during pregnancy and generally have an ultrasound to check heartbeat and growth.
> At 12 and 20wks you have the major scans.
> When giving birth your gynae is there and you are able to request an epidural.
> Is New Zealand the same?


In general in NZ if your pregnancy is straightforward you wont see an obstetrician/gynaecologist, your pregnancy will be managed by your midwife, we have the LMC (lead maternity carer) system here so you will choose your midwife and see them exclusively throughout your pregnancy/birth/post natal period. 
You will be referred to an obstetrician if there are any concerns with either your or your babies health and then, after consultation/treatment your care will most usually be passed back to your midwife.
You will see your midwife monthly for the first few months and then more frequently as your pregnancy progresses. Scans will usually be done at around 12 and 20 weeks and in between your babies heartbeat will be listened to using either a fetoscope (kind of like a stethoscope) or a hand held doptone, you wont get monthly ultrasound scans.
You can choose to give birth either at home or in the hospital and your chosen midwife will care for you wherever you choose. Again if all is normal you wont see a doctor during this time. In hospital doctors will be at hand if needed however would only be called if there is a medical need for them to be involved.

As far as epidurals are concerned that depends on where you live and what hospital you give birth in. At my unit, like many in NZ we dont use epidurals unless medically necessary so they are pretty rare (think we did 12 last year) Women generally dont expect to have access to epidurals so its not an issue. We do have other alternative forms of pain relief but most women dont use them and have normal un-medicated births.


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## FrancisJames

OMG who would have a tooth extracted without novocane!? I simply couldn't countenance going through labour without an epidural!  

Other methods didn't work for me. Believe me I tried them during my first delivery and the epi was definitely my last resort. Even though it meant getting a very sleepy anethistist out of bed in the early hours of the morning  

Home births strike dread into me too, probably because of one of my children was a difficult delivery and was in SCBU for a week afterwards. The unit, maternity ward and operating theatre were all co-located in the hospital. I was so glad we'd opted for a hospital birth. 

I think I'm fortunate never to have had kids in New Zealand.


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## FrancisJames

NZ4me said:


> ps - we are both on 2+ year work visas and are therefore eligible for public coverage.


I think that is correct because your visa is for more than two years. You don't have permanent residency though which makes your position a little bit more precarious if your partner should lose his job. That may cause real problems if you're heavily pregnant if and when that ever happens.

In your situation I would only migrate with permanent residence, or wait until the baby is born.


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## topcat83

FrancisJames said:


> OMG who would have a tooth extracted without novocane!? I simply couldn't countenance going through labour without an epidural!
> 
> Other methods didn't work for me. Believe me I tried them during my first delivery and the epi was definitely my last resort. Even though it meant getting a very sleepy anethistist out of bed in the early hours of the morning
> 
> Home births strike dread into me too, probably because of one of my children was a difficult delivery and was in SCBU for a week afterwards. The unit, maternity ward and operating theatre were all co-located in the hospital. I was so glad we'd opted for a hospital birth.
> 
> I think I'm fortunate never to have had kids in New Zealand.


Francis - I would check the epidural position. A good friend has just had a baby and she certainly was given the choice of an epidural. That was in Auckland hospital. She'd certainly recommend NZ maternity care.


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## FrancisJames

That was at Auckland Hospital but Lisamct says at her unit, like many in NZ, they don't use epidurals unless medically necessary so they are pretty rare and women generally dont expect to have access to epidurals. 

Is Auckland hospital's policy different for some reason?

Did your friend have to pay extra for an epidural? you see I'm wondering if access to this treatment is based on the patient's ability to pay. It must be quite an expensive procedure because it's not just the cost of the drugs but the anethistist's time to pay for too, plus there must be extra monitoring involved for most women and babies?

Lisamct if I came to your hospital in labour and asked for an elective epidural would it be available to me? Would I have to pay for it, how much will it cost?

But at the end of the day, most importantly, NZ4me is headed to Christchurch, what's the policy like there?


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## Siouxzee

@FrancisJames - hopefully other people will respond and give us their feedback because I am in complete agreement regarding epidurals. You asked Lisa all the questions I was going to  Nothing else works. I had for my previous 2 pregnancies. My husband and I are applying for the skilled migrant visa which is Permanent Residency. I am not pregnant but we are questionning if I did fall pregnant here whether or not to have baby here or over there.
I know there is a Maternity Hospital in Christchurch and I emailed them and they say they offer epidural services but then again I am not sure if that is only in emergencies or elective.


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## topcat83

FrancisJames said:


> That was at Auckland Hospital but Lisamct says at her unit, like many in NZ, they don't use epidurals unless medically necessary so they are pretty rare and women generally dont expect to have access to epidurals.
> 
> Is Auckland hospital's policy different for some reason?


I guess different health authorities may have different policies. I don't know how you'd check this out.



> Did your friend have to pay extra for an epidural? you see I'm wondering if access to this treatment is based on the patient's ability to pay. It must be quite an expensive procedure because it's not just the cost of the drugs but the anethistist's time to pay for too, plus there must be extra monitoring involved for most women and babies?


Absolutely no - if you're in hospital the treatment is free.


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## FrancisJames

If the patient doesn't pay the DHB/Hopsital must pick up the bill. Perhaps that is the reason why so many hospitals don't offer epidurals?


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## lisamct

Epidurals aren't readily available in my unit and many others simply because we don't have on-site anaesthetic staff for maternity services so there's no one to actually site the epidural in the first place unless its an emergency or an actual clinical need for one. If you came to my unit and requested an elective epidural then no, you wouldn't get one, certainly not before you had attempted other forms of pain relief and even then it would be only under extreme circumstances.
We offer Remifentanil in our unit which gives the same pain relief as epidurals but is given via an IV line in your hand and controlled by the women themselves and only administered at the time of contractions so that in between you arent numb and able to mobilise therefore much more likely to have a normal birth than if you had an epidural. It also means that immediatley after birth your able to be up and caring for your baby (no baby nurseries here either) without being numb for several hours.
In some of the larger hospitals in the bigger cities there will be on site staff so epidurals are available on request.

Maternity care here is free and private care (as far as I'm aware) is very very rare. I don't actually think we have any obstetricians who offer private care in my area but I'm sure there will be in other areas. I'm general obstetricians here dont see they have any part in 'normal' birth, they specialise in complicated obstetric care and surgery and quite rightly pass the responsibility for most pregnancy/birth care to the midwives who do specialise in normailty.
The whole philosophy around birth here is pretty different, thanks I think to the continuity of care model women get from the LMC's (Im not an LMC. Im a hospital midwife so not getting any commission to tout their services!) Most women have an expectation that they will labour and birth with as little intervention as possible and assume they wont need pain relief so its unavailability isn't an issue.


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## FrancisJames

Thanks for the information Lisamct, that's really interesting. Did you frequently administer Remifentanil before you came to New Zealand and as a medical professional what would you advise your patients to use?

After what you said I did a little bit of research into it and it seems that epidurals may still be the gold standard when it comes to pain relief in labour, but Remifentanil does seem to have some merits as an alternative to pethidine. 

I don't know the position with elective epidurals here in Australia but if I decide to have more children it will certainly be something I'll investigate right from the start. 

Using Remifentanil would worry me because it's opiate based, it depresses respiration and oxygen is needed. I've just been reading some unsettling stories about it:
Has anyone used Remifentanil PCA for pain relief in labour? - Bub Hub Pregnancy & Parenting Forum


> I used remifentanil during my son's birth. It was a horrible experience. I felt completely uninvolved in what was happening to me - could barely open my eyes, was screaming inside my head but couldn't communicate with anyone. Nobody told me I would have to be on oxygen and would have to be closely monitored for the remainder of my labour. The horrible thing was that I really was alone in that experience - everyone else thought I was really relaxed because that's how I looked on the outside.
> 
> And I know I was in control because it was a PCA - but I was only control in theory; I was in too much pain and too tired by that point and I was just looking for anything to take a tiny bit of the pain away.
> 
> I really believe that the remifentanil was a major contributor to the trauma I suffered. It was my second labour and as a result I am too scared to have a third child. I wanted another baby straight away the first time - it was so uncomplicated despite the fact that I was induced do to pre eclampsia. I haven't spoken to other people who used remifentanil, but would really like to hear from others myself because I have some significant issues I need to work through.


This is what David Elliott from the Westmead Hospital in Sydney said about it during 2010's annual scientfic meeting. It's on The Australian and New Zealand College of Anaesthetists web site 
Remifentanil ? use in labour — ANZCA


> Summary
> • PCA remifentanil is an imperfect, but useful means of providing first stage analgesia in labour.
> • It is less effective than epidural analgesia, but may be useful where regional techniques are contraindicated or declined by the mother.
> • There is a real risk of maternal respiratory depression with the use of PCA remifentanil.
> • Neonatal effects are minimal or non existent if the PCA use is ceased prior to delivery.
> • Prospective data regarding the effects of remifentanil on labour outcome are lacking.


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## lisamct

As a midwife I don't really advise women on what to use for pain relief. I give them the pro's and con's of all the available options and leave them to make their own decisions. This is only really possible though when you can meet women antenatally and give them time to look at their options and ask questions so they are prepared in labour and know what they want to do. In general, most women, knowing all the options will start at the bottom (massage, water, breathing, partner support) and work up if need be, they usually surprise themselves with how little they end up using.

I used Remi for 4 years in the UK before I came over to New Zealand. It's true that it is opiate based but its not true that you need to be on oxygen. It can slightly depress the respiratory system but during use we regularly monitor your o2 sats and will administer some o2 if needed but this happens very infrequently. 
Compared to Pethidine/Morphine it has no neonatal respiratory effects so you dont get the 'slow to start' babies that you do with injected opiates.

If you look on the web you'll find negative stories about all available pain relief methods. Lots of women have horrendous times with epidural. They do occasionally (much more often than you would imagine) not work, either totally or partially and sometimes this isnt discovered until they start to make incisions at section. They can leave you with ongoing long term spinal issues or short term severe migrane type headaches that can be totally debilitating and leave you unable to even stand up. The need for catheterisation can leave you with ongoing bladder and incontinence problems.
Yes they are seen as the gold standard for pain relief, you cant really get much more relief than total numbness from the chest down but that doesn't always mean they are a good thing.


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## topcat83

ReinetteRenee said:


> I am an american who is here on a 2 year + work visa also my husband is a kiwi. So all my maternity expenses are covered. anything elective is not covered unless they deem it medically necessary.
> 
> Im Due tomorrow and hoping the little ****** arrives any day now! I will be giving birth at Dunedin Hospital. I have a Midwife whom i got to chose after interviewing many. I have had 3 scans a dating scan, a 13 week scan and a 20 week scan. When it comes to Pain management i have the options of Pethidine, Nos, Epidural and water. All of their birthing rooms have either a Pool, Deep bath, or Shower to help with relaxing. They also have a swiss ball and kneeling pads for other labor positions. The midwives will encourage you to go with out an epidural but if you push enough they will give you one. just make sure you mention that you might want one before you get to the hospital.
> 
> Now the one concern is if your not into this home birth experience you need to make sure you ask enough questions that you can be sure that your midwife will refer you to a specialist or the hospital first signs of concern. There are midwifes who Push for the Pure 100% natural birth and are for as little if any medical intervention. Great for those who don't want anything but a natural birth, bad for those who want midwife to check with a doctor just to be sure. If you don't like your midwife you can change at any time. it just might get kinda hard to do as all the good ones get booked up asap.
> 
> Im 40 weeks tomorrow and so far have seen my midwife 13 times. I see her on Wednesday if this baby isn't born before then and she will check me out and see what is going on with this baby. once i have this baby i will share my hospital experience with you all.


So close! You must be getting excited and nervous all at the same time! Good luck and I hope it's a short labour for you.

We have nothing but praise for Dunedin hospital (albeit the heart unit and not the maternity unit ). Friendly, professional staff and because it's attached to a teaching hospital some great consultants.


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## FrancisJames

ReinetteRenee said:


> I am an american who is here on a 2 year + work visa also my husband is a kiwi. So all my maternity expenses are covered. anything elective is not covered unless they deem it medically necessary.
> 
> Im Due tomorrow and hoping the little ****** arrives any day now! I will be giving birth at Dunedin Hospital. I have a Midwife whom i got to chose after interviewing many. I have had 3 scans a dating scan, a 13 week scan and a 20 week scan. When it comes to Pain management i have the options of Pethidine, Nos, Epidural and water. All of their birthing rooms have either a Pool, Deep bath, or Shower to help with relaxing. They also have a swiss ball and kneeling pads for other labor positions. The midwives will encourage you to go with out an epidural but if you push enough they will give you one. just make sure you mention that you might want one before you get to the hospital.
> 
> Now the one concern is if your not into this home birth experience you need to make sure you ask enough questions that you can be sure that your midwife will refer you to a specialist or the hospital first signs of concern. There are midwifes who Push for the Pure 100% natural birth and are for as little if any medical intervention. Great for those who don't want anything but a natural birth, bad for those who want midwife to check with a doctor just to be sure. If you don't like your midwife you can change at any time. it just might get kinda hard to do as all the good ones get booked up asap.
> 
> Im 40 weeks tomorrow and so far have seen my midwife 13 times. I see her on Wednesday if this baby isn't born before then and she will check me out and see what is going on with this baby. once i have this baby i will share my hospital experience with you all.


Good luck and best wishes, looks like you have plenty of choices there. Hope a you have a safe and speedy (but not _too s_peedy) delivery and all goes well for you both.

Summer is the best time of year to have a baby.


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## Siouxzee

Congratulations Reinette!
Thank you for all the information. When we come over we are looking at being based in a major city so I am sure all the options will be available.
Please could you let me know if went for any of the pain relief options etc.
All the best!


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## jenswaters

ReinetteRenee said:


> I am an american who is here on a 2 year + work visa also my husband is a kiwi. So all my maternity expenses are covered. anything elective is not covered unless they deem it medically necessary.
> 
> Im Due tomorrow and hoping the little ****** arrives any day now!
> 
> Im 40 weeks tomorrow and so far have seen my midwife 13 times. I see her on Wednesday if this baby isn't born before then and she will check me out and see what is going on with this baby. once i have this baby i will share my hospital experience with you all.


Ooooooooooooo good luck!! How exciting!! Could this be our first Forum Baby??

Keep us posted (and pic appreciated)

Jen


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## topcat83

ReinetteRenee said:


> Thanks everyone!
> 
> One thing that does concern me about maternity care in NZ is each hospitals policy on feeding the baby. a Friend of mine her daughter gave birth in Timaru about 2 months ago and the hospital was very very pro-breastfeeding. This is awesome for those who want to breastfeed but she found it to painful and it wasn't her thing. The hospital nurses and midwives made it difficult and uncomfortable for her cause she wanted to bottle feed. Dunedin Says they support and promote breastfeeding and offer support, information and guidance as mum breastfeed or bottle feed their baby. Honestly im going to try to breastfeed not just because its best for baby but also cause its the cheep option. So i will be taking advantage of the Lactation consultant the hospital offers.
> 
> One girl i recently talked to had no idea just how little she would see her midwife or hospital staff and felt completely overwhelmed after the birth of her baby. she thought someone would come in and check on her and baby to make sure all was ok but she said she never saw anyone once baby was born. Her advice to me is if you have a concern go to them don't wait for them to come to you.
> 
> Now im just assuming this goes for the rest of the country as i don't know. But here in Dunedin they don't have a Baby nursery. Baby stay by moms side as long as there are no health issues. To me this is very different cause in the USA they have baby nurseries and thats where baby spends quite a bit of time.
> 
> Something else i want to add that i don't remember seeing mentioned is your LMC will do home visits once baby is born. i cant remember exactly how many visits and how often but i think my midwife said for the next 6 weeks after wards and then she will transfer care to a Well Child service where they look after baby. There are three options for well child health provider your GP, Plunket and a Maori option.
> 
> Also something worth mentioning is they allow you to eat during labor if you are hungry. They advice you to eat something light and something your wouldn't mind throwing up. I know when i asked on an american forum what they recommended to eat during labor they all got huffy and said doctors don't let you eat during labor. I called the hospital to verify their policy on eating during labor. They said that labor was work and you needed energy to work.


Sounds like there's some common sense in some of those NZ 'rules'. All I wanted was a strawberry yoghurt when I had my first, and they wouldn't let me have one!

Best advice I can give on the breastfeeding front - try it, and if it doesn't work out then supplement with the bottle. I tried oh so hard with number 1 until my GP (a very sensible Chinese doctor who also prescribed a small grass of red wine every day) sat me down and said that the baby would be healthier with a happy mum than breast milk!


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## saltybroad

Top Cat is dead on - breastfeeding is a wonderful thing when it works, and there are options when it doesn't. Take full advantage of the lactation services you can get, and good luck to you ReinetteRenee!

My experience in the US: on the eating in labor - when I had my first in the mid 90's, the hospital did not let women eat. (They had lots of other barbaric rules then, also. ;-) When I had my second in 2007, it was allowed and encouraged. The nursery procedures have changed as well - now the babies generally "room-in" with moms unless there is a medical problem. This is, of course, assuming you have your baby at a hospital. Can someone satisfy my curiousity about how common homebirth is in NZ??


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## wahine

FrancisJames said:


> OMG who would have a tooth extracted without novocane!? I simply couldn't countenance going through labour without an epidural!
> 
> Other methods didn't work for me. Believe me I tried them during my first delivery and the epi was definitely my last resort. Even though it meant getting a very sleepy anethistist out of bed in the early hours of the morning
> 
> Home births strike dread into me too, probably because of one of my children was a difficult delivery and was in SCBU for a week afterwards. The unit, maternity ward and operating theatre were all co-located in the hospital. I was so glad we'd opted for a hospital birth.
> 
> I think I'm fortunate never to have had kids in New Zealand.


NZ has a pretty progressive attitude towards childbirth, unlike Scotland. I had a home birth which was fine and fairly easy to arrange in NZ. I wouldn't consider having a hospital birth, but there are other good option in NZ (which are all free if you are a resident) such as Birth Centre and other birthing units. If you and your baby are healthy and there is no complications there are plenty of Midwifery services and groups which offer a wide range of birthing options from homebirth to hospital births and you can specify your LMC and choose one in accordance with the kind of births they specialize in i.e. home, birth unit or hospital. Usually you will see your LMC once a month until the last month or so of pregnancy when you will see them weekly. After the birth there are support groups or Plunket which can offer help and advice, however, Plunket is not for everyone as they promote 'old fashioned' parenting practices. 

Kia kaha


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## wahine

Siouxzee said:


> @FrancisJames - hopefully other people will respond and give us their feedback because I am in complete agreement regarding epidurals. You asked Lisa all the questions I was going to  Nothing else works. I had for my previous 2 pregnancies. My husband and I are applying for the skilled migrant visa which is Permanent Residency. I am not pregnant but we are questionning if I did fall pregnant here whether or not to have baby here or over there.
> I know there is a Maternity Hospital in Christchurch and I emailed them and they say they offer epidural services but then again I am not sure if that is only in emergencies or elective.


It is possible to have a baby without an epidural. You can ask for an epidural at the hospital, but they will only give it to you if it is at an appropriate stage of the labour. NZ maternity care is good but there is a focus on natural birth options unless there are medical reasons to elect for c-section.


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## wahine

ReinetteRenee said:


> My midwife said that it was monthly till about week 28 then it was ever two weeks till about week 37 then it was weekly.


Yes, now I think back that is right. Every two weeks in the later stages.


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## saltybroad

wahine said:


> NZ has a pretty progressive attitude towards childbirth, unlike Scotland. I had a home birth which was fine and fairly easy to arrange in NZ. I wouldn't consider having a hospital birth, but there are other good option in NZ (which are all free if you are a resident) such as Birth Centre and other birthing units. If you and your baby are healthy and there is no complications there are plenty of Midwifery services and groups which offer a wide range of birthing options from homebirth to hospital births and you can specify your LMC and choose one in accordance with the kind of births they specialize in i.e. home, birth unit or hospital. Usually you will see your LMC once a month until the last month or so of pregnancy when you will see them weekly. After the birth there are support groups or Plunket which can offer help and advice, however, Plunket is not for everyone as they promote 'old fashioned' parenting practices.
> 
> Kia kaha


Thanks Wahine. I had a homebirth in the US and it was definitely swimming upstream - the health insurance companies would far rather pay for a $30,000 hospital stay than a $4500 homebirth. I realize it's not for everyone, but I am pleased to hear that NZ is more progressive in this way and less driven by pharmaceutical companies and doctors with high malpractice premiums!


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## MadFam

I've had both my children in NZ and can hand-on-heart say that the care I received start to finish was fantastic. You can get an independent midwife, who is your dedicated midwife from the 13th week or your pregnancy until 6 weeks after the birth, absolutely free. I stayed as much as I could within the midwifery sphere and didn't involve doctors unless or until I absolutely had to. It was lovely. Minimal intervention. First birth I needed to be induced so had it at the hospital, which involved a lot more people obviously. It wasn't what I wanted but I transferred straight to an independent, Trust run birthing centre straight afterwards. It cost us nothing and I received amazing care for three full days and nights - fed beautifully, lactation assistance at all times of day and night etc etc. There are places like this all over NZ and I strongly recommend finding one. You can usually either birth there and stay, or birth at a hospital and transfer. I had a private room with my own bathroom and everything. Just awesome.


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## irishkiwi

I had both my babies in Wellington. Alot of the interventions etc and extra visits all depend on what kind of LMC you go for. If you want the natural route there are midwives who will go with that at all costs and if you like me want to have a mw that will offer what ever drugs are possible that is there to. My first was an emergency c section and my second little guy was a high risk stressfull pregnancy which resluted in a prem baby. I had amazing care and the baby was looked after in a brand new nicu. The issue with mw etc is they are all usally booked up really quickly, I know I had to call mine as soon as the test turn possitive to make sure I got the midwife I wanted. You have the mw until the baby is 6 weeks old and then she hands you over to plunket who do all the well child checks up until the baby is 5. 

Re breast feeding. The reason they push the bf is that they are not allowed to promote bottle feeding. It is pushed quite fanatically but as a result it is very normal to see mothers bf in public babies up to a year old sometimes older and nobody bats an eye lid. I think it is pushed a little to hard on some mothers but I was lucky I fed ds 1 till 10 months and I am still feeding ds2.


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