# doctrine of double constructive retention



## crys (Feb 20, 2009)

can anyone shed any light on this? i have read it could possibly be a way in which to claim citizenship, however there seems to be NOTHING on the net that shows the guidelines for going down this route??? it does exists, but seems to be clouded in secrecy!


----------



## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

Not sure this is one of those avenues for claiming citizenship where there are "guidelines" to be had. It's more of a back door approach.

If you think you may be eligible due to parents who had unclaimed US nationality, you may want to consult an immigration attorney.
Cheers,
Bev


----------



## crys (Feb 20, 2009)

thanks bev, its a very difficult one as most attorneys who specialize in this doctrine want nearly $500 for a half hour consultation - so my way of looking at it was to gather as much information about it, see if any of it applies to me and then hand over the money for a consultation - unfortunately there does not seem to be much information about it!


----------



## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

You might try contacting some of the US expat groups that have worked on the issue of passing US nationality to children born overseas. Google Association of Americans Resident Overseas or American Citizens Abroad. 

ACA has a number of reports on its website about various issues related to US citizens abroad. They might have something (though perhaps not using quite the same term). Look for any files they have on transmission of US nationality.

Good luck.
Cheers,
Bev


----------



## crys (Feb 20, 2009)

thanks bev! i have already contacted the american residents association and am waitng for them to get back to me. i know from research (and your handy tip!) that they are doing a lot of work protecting us citizens and their children in helping them to obtain citizenship. its just so frustrating!!i suppose this is my last ditch attempt at citizenship and if not then its the e-2 visa or lengthy 8 year citizenship route for me (sighs!) ......


----------



## twostep (Apr 3, 2008)

Can you explain to me what the American Residents Association is/does? Thank you.


----------



## crys (Feb 20, 2009)

have a google and take a look at their website. they do a lot of work for american residents abroad, but seem to have got caught up in a lot to do with transmissional citizenship and the human rights aspect of it.


----------



## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

twostep said:


> Can you explain to me what the American Residents Association is/does? Thank you.


The purpose of the group is to keep overseas residents apprised of their rights. Practically speaking, it's a social group, too, for those living in the Paris area - but there are plenty of members in various countries around Europe and elsewhere.

They also lobby in Washington every year to make sure Senators and Congressional Reps know that they have constituents overseas. (Some don't realize overseas residents can vote.) And of course, when section 911 of the Tax Code is up for grabs (i.e. the overseas earned income exclusion) they pull out all the stops. 
Cheers,
Bev


----------



## Davis1 (Feb 20, 2009)

Rich Wales has a good site for dual citizenship etc..
Dual Citizenship FAQ


----------



## twostep (Apr 3, 2008)

crys said:


> have a google and take a look at their website. they do a lot of work for american residents abroad, but seem to have got caught up in a lot to do with transmissional citizenship and the human rights aspect of it.


Thank you so much.


----------



## Fatbrit (May 8, 2008)

crys said:


> can anyone shed any light on this? i have read it could possibly be a way in which to claim citizenship, however there seems to be NOTHING on the net that shows the guidelines for going down this route??? it does exists, but seems to be clouded in secrecy!


It's always defeated me, too. I know that there is a path, but not how it works. For some reason it seems to crop up most frequently with Israeli Americans


----------



## synthia (Apr 18, 2007)

OK, if Fatbrit doesn't know much about it, it is officially obscure.


----------



## crys (Feb 20, 2009)

AARRGGHH!!! well i have an appointment with an immigration attorney and this question will crop up so if i do get (some kind of) answer, i will be sure to share the info here!


----------



## Fatbrit (May 8, 2008)

crys said:


> AARRGGHH!!! well i have an appointment with an immigration attorney and this question will crop up so if i do get (some kind of) answer, i will be sure to share the info here!


From Bev's kind links, method 2 described @ AARO - Association of Americans Resident Overseas - Frequently Asked Questions on Citizenship is the route. Unfortunately, you cannot download the full fact sheet (which presumably gives details) unless you are a member.


----------



## spoonyluv (Mar 22, 2009)

*Hey*



crys said:


> AARRGGHH!!! well i have an appointment with an immigration attorney and this question will crop up so if i do get (some kind of) answer, i will be sure to share the info here!


I am also trying to get US citizenship somehow, cause I really wanna move to the US, join the ARMY and after my active duty I want to be a police officer like a lot of my family members in the US. 

My grandfather was a US citizen but my mother never knew she could claim US citizenship. By the way, my mother grew up in Germany and lives here ever since and had only the german citizenship until this year. Cause she just didn't know! 

I also heard about the doctrine of double constructive retention and tried to find out how exactly it works. But the only info I got is, you can possibly claim US citizenship when one of your grandparents was a US citizen. So if you figure something out, please let me know. I am really desperate right now. My mother already filed an I-130 for me, but it will take along time until I actually get my green card, although I am in the first category.

So, I really appreciate any help you guys can give me.

Thx

Kevin


----------



## crys (Feb 20, 2009)

spoke to an immigration lawyer who said i could possibly have a good case to go with the double constructive retention to claim citizenship. what i need to obtain is copies of the following:

birth cert for grandfather and mother (mothers i have, grandfathers i dont)
marriage and divorce certs for my grandparents
proof that my grandfather still resides in the US

does anyone know if there is a central place where these documents are stored (we have them all held a palce called somerset house in london) as my grandfather was born in iowa, but married, divorced and lived in los angeles? also what is deemed as proof of residency? not sure if grandfather would want me to have copies of his tax stuff so is there anything esle i can obtain to prove this? an electoral register or something?

kevin, if its any help to you, i can forward you the details of the attorney i have spoken to her in london but as yet i have not seen an invoice for his services so am not too sure what his prices are like just yet?


----------



## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

crys said:


> does anyone know if there is a central place where these documents are stored (we have them all held a palce called somerset house in london) as my grandfather was born in iowa, but married, divorced and lived in los angeles? also what is deemed as proof of residency? not sure if grandfather would want me to have copies of his tax stuff so is there anything esle i can obtain to prove this? an electoral register or something?


Afraid there is no central repository for birth, death and marriage documents in the US. And in fact, it can vary just a bit from state to state, county to county. Birth, death and marriage documents usually are archived by the county government, or in some cases, the city or town. Start with the county.

There are some services online that can get you the documents - usually for about $15-20 each - but you have to supply the name of the towns or counties in which the events took place. In some cases, it's just as easy to go directly to the websites of the town or county to get the documents - they are not available for free - usually at least $5 or $10 a copy. Google "birth certificates online" to get you started.

Proof of residence can be something as simple as a recent bill sent to grandfather at his residence - preferably a utility bill, showing his name as the responsible party. Or, if he has a current driver's license showing his address, or a voter registration card (if it includes his address - they don't always).
Cheers,
Bev


----------



## spoonyluv (Mar 22, 2009)

*@crys*

Yeah sure, I'll take whatever you can give me  

The only problem I have is that my grandpa died 11 years ago. I mean there is proof through children, siblings and the rest of the family that he lived there plus a lot of papers. He always lived in the US. He was only absent during his time with the ARMY. 

Anyway, are you older than 18 years crys? Cause it always looked that everything is over when you reach that age. 

But keep me updated allright? It's always good to see that you are not the only one who is fighting the same battle 

By the way, I wrote a whole bunch of emails to immigration lawyers, assosication of americans abroad, DoS, US Embassies around the world (like New Zealand),... during the weekend. If I get any info I let you know ok? You can also gimme ur email address so we can stay in touch. If you want to.

Take care,

Kevin


PS: Thx for your help!!!


----------



## Fatbrit (May 8, 2008)

spoonyluv said:


> My grandfather was a US citizen but my mother never knew she could claim US citizenship. By the way, my mother grew up in Germany and lives here ever since and had only the german citizenship until this year. Cause she just didn't know!


Germany is one of those that has issues with dual citizenship. It can be possible to retain your German citizenship after you naturalize as a USC -- but you have to apply to the German authorities first.


----------



## spoonyluv (Mar 22, 2009)

*@fatbrit*

Nah it's ok. I would even give up my german citizenship. But only(!) if get my american citizenship ;-)

I mean I know I could keep it under certain circumstances but I don't even want to you know. I don't have strong ties to th this country although I was born here. I even grew up over here but a little different that the regular german kid I guess. 

My only priority is the US citizenship. And I will do whatever I can to get it. That why I pray to god that somebody will com here soon to enlighten me and provide me with the information I need to claim US citizenship. That's what I hope for.


----------



## Fatbrit (May 8, 2008)

crys said:


> does anyone know if there is a central place where these documents are stored (we have them all held a palce called somerset house in london) as my grandfather was born in iowa, but married, divorced and lived in los angeles? also what is deemed as proof of residency? not sure if grandfather would want me to have copies of his tax stuff so is there anything esle i can obtain to prove this? an electoral register or something?
> 
> kevin, if its any help to you, i can forward you the details of the attorney i have spoken to her in london but as yet i have not seen an invoice for his services so am not too sure what his prices are like just yet?


Birth, marriage and death certificates are a state rather than a federal responsibility -- hence no central repository (or at least one that you could get access to!). Google for them authority on-line -- usually, but not always, official bodies end with a .gov. It may be easier for grandfather than you to apply.

Proof of residency could be as simple as utility bills or an addressed envelope. In such cases, use multiple proofs to build the case. Along the tax lines, you get an annual social security statement if he keeps those. There's definitely an electoral roll but I'm unsure whether you can access the records. When searching, this is usually done on the county level -- so search for the county where he resides.

London-based US immigration attorneys tend to be much more expensive than their US counterparts.


----------



## crys (Feb 20, 2009)

yeah ive noticed the cost is more over here already! thanks fatbrit, really do appreciate your help. im going to contact my grandfather tonight to see what documents he has and what we need to obtain.


----------



## crys (Feb 20, 2009)

unfortunately though sooonyluv, what may be the case for me, may not be the case for your own applciation for citizenship. i would think it would be well worth while you having a look for an immigration attorney who specialises in this because the one i am using is british and it may not apply to you too?


----------



## spoonyluv (Mar 22, 2009)

*@crys*

Yeah I know. I am already in touch with a couple of lawyers and when I fly over to the states in about 3 months I will also try to get some information. 

Although, it doesn't matter if your lawyer is british, german, turkish or chinese. They all have to deal with the same (****ty) immigration law. 

I just think we will both benefit from the information we will gather. It's a win-win deal ;-)


----------



## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

spoonyluv said:


> Yeah I know. I am already in touch with a couple of lawyers and when I fly over to the states in about 3 months I will also try to get some information.
> 
> Although, it doesn't matter if your lawyer is british, german, turkish or chinese. They all have to deal with the same (****ty) immigration law.
> 
> I just think we will both benefit from the information we will gather. It's a win-win deal ;-)


There's always the diversity lottery. It would certainly be cheaper than paying the lawyers - and apparently once you have a green card, you can enlist in the Army. 
Cheers,
Bev


----------



## spoonyluv (Mar 22, 2009)

*@bev*

Yeah I know, but it's risky to bet everything on that card you know. What I need is a reliable information if the doctrine of double constructive retention workd for me, and for crys, or not. It's not like I say "Well, if it doesn't work it's allright". If it doesn't work it would be totally devastating.

See, when I was in the US 2007 I called USCIS and talked with them about the doctrine of double constructive retention. They said it's no problem my mum just has to do it (get citizenship) first. And I thought when the government tells you that it's gotta be right. So, I made my plans, gathered all the papers, quit my job and went back to school for a year to get a high school equivalent that is recognized in the US, my mother applied for citizenship, got it this year and when I asked for mine, they said sorry, no citizenship for you pal. You can not imagine how devastating that is. They dashed my dreams...and my plans. I've been through with Germany and ready to go. I had chats with the ARMY and it was already as good as decided that I am gonna join them for 3 years. And then...boom! Right in the face!

That's why I am desperately lookin for a way out. I know it sounds pathetic somehow but why should I be writing some BS? 

The doctrine of double constructive retention is my last straw, if that doesn't work out I am practically screwed. Seriously. I wanted to move to the US since I was a little kid. I am in touch with my whole family over there and visited the, a lot and they all want me to come. They all support me and offered their help. 

Well, I can't reward you with any money or gifts or whatever if you help me. All I can tell you is that I'd be more than grateful for every little help you guys can give me. 

Sorry, if that post got a little longer than it's supposed to, but I really needed to get this off my chest. Since they turned me down in february I feel like a piece of s... anyway. But I don't expect anyone to understand it. I probably couldn't, either.


----------



## Fatbrit (May 8, 2008)

spoonyluv said:


> See, when I was in the US 2007 I called USCIS and talked with them about the doctrine of double constructive retention.


1/ You probably talked to contract worker reading from a script rather than an actual USCIS employee.
2/ Never get advice of government bodies -- they can't be held liable for it anyway.
3/ It's not known as the 1-800-misinformation line on immigration boards for nothing!

The same also holds for the London Consulate visa line (the X GBP/min one!) but not the one for American Citizen Services. I have no idea about Germany, though.


----------



## spoonyluv (Mar 22, 2009)

Ok that's funny. I just called visapro.com because they offer legal advice for the doctrine of double constructive retention and they just told me they don't offer any help anymore for these cases. 

What the hell? This is really getting weird. Like there is a backdoor nobody's supposed to find. Oh by the way...visapro.com's headquarter is in Washington, DC ;-) 

There is something fishy about all that. I just asked my relatives in the US to write to their Senators and Congressmen to see if they can help out. One of 'em is John Kerry and the other one is Edward Kennedy. I am sure they have some pull ;-)


----------



## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

visapro.com is a private company looking to make a living processing visa applications. It's no big surprise they don't want to mess with a potentially difficult case like yours.

The other thing to consider is that US law isn't "by the book" as much as it is in many European countries. Just because you think you fulfill the requirements under "double constructive retention" or any other principle doesn't mean the Immigration service will necessarily see it that way. 

Personally, I think you're going the legislative route a bit prematurely. Kerry is currently wrapped up in a case involving a Brazilian who was deported after marrying a US citizen (and one of Kerry's constituents) under Massachusetts' law allowing for gay marriages. 

Most cases that the senators and/or Congressmen take up involve those who have already come to the US (usually on a valid visa or seeking asylum) who have demonstrated their potential contribution to American society. I was marginally involved in a case years ago involving a popular university professor threatened with deportation because he had not returned to his country at the end of a Fulbright exchange. (He was married to a US citizen and they had kids who, he argued, were being deported along with him.)

If this double constructive retention is what I think it is, it's a relatively recent addition to US immigration law (i.e. within the last 20 or 30 years) and there is probably no way around the need to work with a very good immigration attorney, especially if the grandparent you're claiming your nationality through is dead.
Cheers,
Bev


----------



## crys (Feb 20, 2009)

visapro are directly advertsinig for people looknig to apply through this route, i find it amazing they dont want to help, but in any event, i dont think i would trust them. i would prefer to stick with a good immigration lawyer and find out that way. i think your right bev, this is waters only for an attorney to deal with. i will let you know how i get on.


----------



## theresoon (Apr 11, 2008)

Spoonyluv, I know that a few years ago you could join the US Army without a greencard if you were a citizen from some specific countries. Not sure if this is still the case as this was prior to 9/11. These were nations they considered friendly and the list was long. I remember for sure The Philippines was on there and I would be very surprised if Germany was not.


----------



## spoonyluv (Mar 22, 2009)

*@theresoon*

Yes I also heard about that, but as far as I know they stopped it after 9/11. Unfortuantely, because I wanted to join the ARMY anyway for 3 years.


----------



## Fatbrit (May 8, 2008)

theresoon said:


> Spoonyluv, I know that a few years ago you could join the US Army without a greencard if you were a citizen from some specific countries. Not sure if this is still the case as this was prior to 9/11. These were nations they considered friendly and the list was long. I remember for sure The Philippines was on there and I would be very surprised if Germany was not.


With a few obscure exceptions, you need to be a citizen or permanent resident.


----------



## spoonyluv (Mar 22, 2009)

*Well, no updates yet...*

I just hope somebody comes across this thread and can provide us with some good information. 

I am still waiting for a reply from some lawyers and the government. I'll post the replies as soon as I hear something.

BTW: I am talking about the doctrine of double constructive retention.


----------



## jjohnston1980 (Apr 7, 2009)

Hi there:

My name is Justin, I am also Canadian with strong US connections. I've been researching the doctrine of double retention for a few years now. I have spoken with many people on this obscure aspect of immigration law. Here is what you'll need:

1) Your Grandfather's birth certificate and proof of his US citizenship, such as a copy of his PASSPORT.

2) Your Grandfather and Grandmother's marriage certificate

3) Your parent's birth certificate

4) Your parents' proof of marriage

5) Your birth certificate

6) Proof of physical presence and residence. Show that your grandfather and your parents visited or stayed in the US before you were born or while very young, e.g, school records, employment records, service records (military service counts as residency).


Some US consulates in Canada have a special form for citizenship based on ancestry. Fill it out and keep your story as simple as possible in written form with the above docs. Costs about $100. You can also try a US passport application.


The Embassy should respond outlining any deficiencies with your application. 


[email protected]


----------



## crys (Feb 20, 2009)

thanks Justin, i have emailled you for some further information,. can i ask did you manage to go down this route yourself?


----------

