# Racism in Spain



## emmamayb

The racism in touristic areas


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## Pesky Wesky

emmamayb said:


> The racism in touristic areas


And what racism is that?


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## emmamayb

Pesky Wesky said:


> And what racism is that?


I found when I lived in Calpe that there was many people racist towards the fact I am British, even though I speak the language fluently and have fully accepted the Spanish culture. I can understand the reasons why Spanish people get frustrated with people however it is a shame to be a victim of the racism when you are not the one they are really angry at. 

When i moved to Elche 2 years ago i noticed a huge difference in the attitude towards English people, they seem happy to practise their english and are interested in you genuinely!


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## baldilocks

emmamayb said:


> The racism in touristic areas


Depends on what you call "touristic areas" - we have never noticed any racialism other than kids calling after '****' and that was only on one occasion. However, I have been known to call out after my "Hola" was ignored, "Ignorant Brit!" then explaining how rude that person appeared to others.


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## emmamayb

baldilocks said:


> Depends on what you call "touristic areas" - we have never noticed any racialism other than kids calling after '****' and that was only on one occasion. However I have been know to call out after my "Hola" was ignored, "Ignorant Brit!" then explaining how rude that person appeared to others.


my experience is in the costa blance mainly. the word guiri is commonly used to describe any english person in that area! its a shame especially when you are someone like you or i who is perfectly accpeting of the language and culture and seem to take the blame for the few ignorant hliday makers


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## Rabbitcat

With my very limited knowledge of day to day Spanish life I must say I am saddened to hear of such racism.

Of course every nation has its idiots but I thought ( generally) the Spanish were regarded as pretty accepting.


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## Pesky Wesky

emmamayb said:


> I found when I lived in Calpe that there was many people racist towards the fact I am British, even though I speak the language fluently and have fully accepted the Spanish culture. I can understand the reasons why Spanish people get frustrated with people however it is a shame to be a victim of the racism when you are not the one they are really angry at.
> 
> When i moved to Elche 2 years ago i noticed a huge difference in the attitude towards English people, they seem happy to practise their english and are interested in you genuinely!


Oh, so maybe Calpe is a place to be avoided. I wonder why they are racisist, and also how they demonstrated that to you.
And I wonder why people in Elche should be more interested in English people.


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## emmamayb

Its not really really bad but i notice a difference in somewhere like calpe, javea and benidorm in comparison to Elche. 

They just seem more welcoming in Elche, always seeking to practise their language skills on you and are a lot more friendly when it comes to general customer service. 

I think theyre racist towards english becasue there are many people who seem to move or go on holiday to these areas and expect all the workers to speak english and arent willing to accept traditions such as the fiestas or the gastronomy.


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## Pesky Wesky

emmamayb said:


> Its not really really bad but i notice a difference in somewhere like calpe, javea and benidorm in comparison to Elche.
> 
> They just seem more welcoming in Elche, always seeking to practise their language skills on you and are a lot more friendly when it comes to general customer service.
> 
> I think theyre racist towards english becasue there are many people who seem to move or go on holiday to these areas and expect all the workers to speak english and arent willing to accept traditions such as the fiestas or the gastronomy.


Ah well, it would be interesting to hear what the other people living in Javea have to say about it, because I haven't heard about racism there before


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## xabiaxica

emmamayb said:


> I found when I lived in Calpe that there was many people racist towards the fact I am British, even though I speak the language fluently and have fully accepted the Spanish culture. I can understand the reasons why Spanish people get frustrated with people however it is a shame to be a victim of the racism when you are not the one they are really angry at.
> 
> When i moved to Elche 2 years ago i noticed a huge difference in the attitude towards English people, they seem happy to practise their english and are interested in you genuinely!


I've never come across racism in Jávea - & I'm surprised to hear it about Calpe

I thought one of the councillors there is/was English :confused2:


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## emmamayb

xabiachica said:


> I've never come across racism in Jávea - & I'm surprised to hear it about Calpe
> 
> I thought one of the councillors there is/was English :confused2:


Yeah javea is the least bad because they get SO much money from tourism there and the people who visit are a bit nicer and from all over the world. Its just more of a general statement of something i notived over the last 11 years


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## Rabbitcat

Glad you posted that Xabia as your town is a magical place and would be total bummer if it was racist ridden


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## xabiaxica

baldilocks said:


> Depends on what you call "touristic areas" - we have never noticed any racialism other than kids calling after '****' and that was only on one occasion. However, I have been known to call out after my "Hola" was ignored, "Ignorant Brit!" then explaining how rude that person appeared to others.


racism or racialism???


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## emmamayb

Cool new thread. the racism isnt so bad in javea, just used it as an example of a touristic area. The toursits you get there are mch nicer than the majoirty that you experience in places like benidorm


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## Pesky Wesky

I've lived in my present location, a town of 30,000 for 21 years and as a Brit have been a "victim" of whatever the opposite is of racism; I am much favoured over the Moroccans, Romanians, Ecuadorians, Russians and even the Americans...
I think racism is alive and well where I am, but it's not directed at the English, or British.


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## emmamayb

Yeah I agree. The word used when comments are made directly translates to the word "foreigner" so it isnt targetted mainly at English people at all. It is more of a general term used.


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## mrypg9

Spanish.

Spanish 'racism' towards Brits: that's not racism, really. If I were Spanish and lived in say Magaluf or other popular holiday destinations I might have apprehensions about the habits of some British people. Besides, some immigrant Brits dislike the way other immigrant Brits have chosen to live in Spain.
It's human nature to think that our way is the best way and Spaniards are really no different from other Europeans in that respect.


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## mrypg9

emmamayb said:


> Cool new thread. the racism isnt so bad in javea, just used it as an example of a touristic area. The toursits you get there are mch nicer than the majoirty that you experience in places like benidorm


Interesting...Why do you think that?


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## xabiaxica

emmamayb said:


> Cool new thread. the racism isnt so bad in javea, just used it as an example of a touristic area. The toursits you get there are mch nicer than the majoirty that you experience in places like benidorm


we've lived in Jávea for nearly 12 years & I have to say I've never seen *any *racism at all..& neither have my daughters ...... except sadly *by *a few Brits towards the Spanish & other nationalities  

these are the same who complain about the immigrants in the UK 

we live among the Spanish, although we haven't for the entire 12 years, and have friends of various nationalities - hardly surprising with about 60 nationalities living happily side by side 


as for your earlier 'guiri' comment - it's often used with a big smile & a wink - it certainly isn't always meant as an insult

in fact one of our councillors (Belgian) , even called herself a 'guiri' in an interview during the run up to the elections

I'd love to know what instances of racism you've actually experienced or witnessed in Jávea 

genuinely - it's something I know our councillor for equality would be keen to know about


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## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> Depends on what you call "touristic areas" - we have never noticed any racialism other than kids calling after '****' and that was only on one occasion. However, I have been known to call out after my "Hola" was ignored, "Ignorant Brit!" then explaining how rude that person appeared to others.


Hmm...Some might think that a less than desirable way of dealing with a person who has committed a minor social faux pas...Be careful when you use the word 'Brit'? You'd get taken before a judge for that in the UK, perhaps in Spain too. That's racism...
This morning I smiled at a Spaniard and was about to reply to his 'Hola' or 'Buenas'....but he was in a hurry and rushed past me. Should I have shouted 'Espanol no educato'? Methinks not....the incident occurred in the campo outside our village too. People are usually friendly, too friendly sometimes and seem to know everything about everyone.

Perhaps some helpful person should write a short guide to acceptable public behaviour for Brits in Spain...preferably a Spanish person though. A Spanish Emily Post....


Just a thought, Baldy...if you knew the person to be British, why didn't you greet him/her with a cheery 'Good Morning'? When I pass someone I know to be British, I greet them in English, if I pass a German, in German...a Spaniard, in Spanish.


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## Pesky Wesky

More on the same thought expressed in my post #15. This from a recent thread about the youth in Spain (that the OP never went back to comment on) that received a lot of posts
mrypg9 had posted something about the acceptance of other races in Spain...


> I think that "this acceptance" has to be looked at carefully.
> Acceptance might prevail when the immigrants bring in money (Ibiza, Majorca, Torremolinos, Benidorm, Torrevieja), but when it brings in people with different coloured skin, different customs in large numbers and not much money the native population are not so happy.
> And in football there have been problems with fans calling players monkeys. One even threw a banana at Alves. Isolated incidents or are these just the stories that we hear about of the many that could be reported? I think I'm right in saying that there are few places in Spain that have the concentrations of immigrants that places like Birminham, London and Bradford have/ had. I'd like to see how the Spanish handle that when it happens
> Personally, I think the Spanish are accepting of certain foreigners. Where I am for example, and in Bilbao, being British still carries a certain _caché, _ridiculous, but true. However, South Americans are looked down on by some. I was in a shop a while back with a South American man in front of me. When he left the shop assistant turned to another woman and started talking about "them" and how they come "here", so I said "Well I'd better go as I'm an immigrant too" But they wouldn't have it. In another shop a muslim woman was being served and as soon as she was out of the shop the assistant referred to her as "esta morita" with a disrespective tone. This time it was a colleague of hers who pointed out that that wasn't the correct way to talk about her. And Americans are often compared unfavourably to the British especially when referring to language.


Page 9
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...2666-what-youth-spain-like-9.html#post7838306


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## xabiaxica

mrypg9 said:


> Interesting...Why do you think that?


I don't know if they are nicer..... but it's rather more expensive here & we don't tend to get the drunken hen & stag parties like they do in Benidorm


not sure that has anything to do with racism though


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## baldilocks

I have heard it here in the village when we hadn't long been here. I was sitting in the barber's awaiting my turn. There were a few others there, including the barber's wife, and as usual the conversation was quite complex. At one point someone asked the barber who I was, sitting there quietly (they don't pull their punches and say things out aloud in front of you "and who's this" or "and who are you?"), and when told that I was a Brit a lot of uncomplimentary comments came forth only to be interrupted by both the barber and his wife that we (SWMBO and I weren't like the others, we were OK), then everyone in the shop came over to shake hands etc. It transpired that the Barber's wife had sold her parents house to Brits and they were people you would not want to live too close to.


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## mrypg9

xabiachica said:


> - hardly surprising with about 60 nationalities living happily side by side
> 
> 
> as for your earlier 'guiri' comment - it's often used with a big smile & a wink - it certainly isn't always meant as an insult


I repeat, for Emma, a story I've told before ( if you know it, skip it)

There is some graffiti in our village saying 'Muerte a los immigrantes'. I told our friend and neighbour Meri that I felt like adding 'excepto Mary y Sandra'.
She looked at me in a puzzled way and said 'Pero...no sois immigrantes. Sois guiris'.


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## Rabbitcat

For us ignoramuses what is the literal translation of guiri? Is it slang or does it have various meanings? Thanks


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## mrypg9

xabiachica said:


> I don't know if they are nicer..... but it's rather more expensive here & we don't tend to get the drunken hen & stag parties like they do in Benidorm
> 
> 
> not sure that has anything to do with racism though


That's what I was thinking. It's more to do with public behaviour. We Brits aren't the only people who get drunk and naked in public either.

The term 'racism' should never be used casually. There are more than enough instances of real, cruel racism that affects people's working and private lives.


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## Maureen47

Some of the behaviour of Brits abroad would no doubt bring disdain from the locals and I don't blame them. I asked for our drinks in Spanish on our first visit to Benidorm , the Spanish waiter then spent time passing the time of day with us and letting us practice our Spanish , after the conversation was over , the British couple sat next to us asked us ,' what language was that you were speaking fluently to the waiter' ! It was far from fluent but appreciated by the waiter that we were trying, people are people anywhere in the world and I have found to accept and go with the flow with local customs and requirements goes a long way towards a positive experience. The 'Brits' are the first to complain about non English speaking folks in the UK. Live and let live and respect the culture you have chosen to live in and I guess you will find things are all ok.


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## emmamayb

Like I said. I used javea as an example of a touristic place and stated that I have experiences racism in Calpe, as an English consumer from a Spanish worker - simply with a poor attitude, filthy looks and mutters like "p*** guiri". Maybe this is due to my age (21) and the age of the people I have encountered these comments from (mainly young Spanish)

I cannot speak for an entire community nor am i attempting to, I am merely stating that I have personally witnessed comments of the sort which are disheartening over the last 12 years i have lived and grown up on the Costa Blanca. 

Again, reason for this is probably because there are so many holiday makers in the area that make no attempt to adapt and expect a lot from the Spanish workers in restaurants and bars for example. 

Again, i am not attempting to speak for the whole of Spain nor am i accusing every Spanish person to be racist, not at all. Because as previously stated, I have personally witnessed some extremely welcoming and friendly people in the new area in which I am living. i am simply letting people know of instances that I have experienced generally which i see as a great shame as people like myself who make a great effort to become part of the community find it hard to fit in and be considered equal due to a bad reputation holiday makers give us.


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## emmamayb

Rabbitcat said:


> For us ignoramuses what is the literal translation of guiri? Is it slang or does it have various meanings? Thanks


foreigner


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## Rabbitcat

Well I have it all planned how I am gonna fit right in with the local Spanish community.

I am buying a massive sombrero which I will wear everywhere along with my white socks n sandals and I will carry a straw donkey with me everywhere peering out from under the big hat every now and then to call people gringos.

Will fit right in


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## xabiaxica

mrypg9 said:


> Just a thought, Baldy...if you knew the person to be British, why didn't you greet him/her with a cheery 'Good Morning'? When I pass someone I know to be British, I greet them in English, if I pass a German, in German...a Spaniard, in Spanish.



me too  

I would find it pretentious if a fellow Brit greeted me in Spanish, if they know that I'm English, too

I might say _buenos días _to someone of any other nationality though, if I knew they couldn't speak English & I don't speak their language - after all Spanish is likely to be our common language 

more & more I'm finding myself saying Bon Día though ( I really _must _find time for Valenciano lessons! )


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## mrypg9

emmamayb said:


> Like I said. I used javea as an example of a touristic place and stated that I have experiences racism in Calpe, as an English consumer from a Spanish worker - simply with a poor attitude, filthy looks and mutters like "p*** guiri". Maybe this is due to my age (21) and the age of the people I have encountered these comments from (mainly young Spanish)
> 
> I cannot speak for an entire community nor am i attempting to, I am merely stating that I have personally witnessed comments of the sort which are disheartening over the last 12 years i have lived and grown up on the Costa Blanca.
> 
> Again, reason for this is probably because there are so many holiday makers in the area that make no attempt to adapt and expect a lot from the Spanish workers in restaurants and bars for example.
> 
> Again, i am not attempting to speak for the whole of Spain nor am i accusing every Spanish person to be racist, not at all. Because as previously stated, I have personally witnessed some extremely welcoming and friendly people in the new area in which I am living. i am simply letting people know of instances that I have experienced generally which i see as a great shame as people like myself who make a great effort to become part of the community find it hard to fit in and be considered equal due to a bad reputation holiday makers give us.


You say you are not speaking for the whole of Spain...yet you seem to be labelling all holidaymakers as giving 'us' a bad reputation.
Why should people spending a week or two on holiday here 'adapt'? Behaving with dignity and courtesy is what should be expected.
Where I live, I have experienced nothing of the kind of response from local people that you describe. Neither have I found it hard to 'fit in'.


I think a fortune could be made selling whips for people who feel they should flagellate themselves for being born British..


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## emmamayb

mrypg9 said:


> You say you are not speaking for the whole of Spain...yet you seem to be labelling all holidaymakers as giving 'us' a bad reputation.
> Why should people spending a week or two on holiday here 'adapt'? Behaving with dignity and courtesy is what should be expected.
> Where I live, I have experienced nothing of the kind of response from local people that you describe. Neither have I found it hard to 'fit in'.
> 
> 
> I think a fortune could be made selling whips for people who feel they should flagellate themselves for being born British..


if you re read my post i said there are 'so many' holidays makers i did not say all. And yes you are right there are many people who are perfectly pleasant when on holiday in Spain which is FINE. I am talking about the people found in the area i grew up in has a particular attraction for a particular type of person and many people even that i went to school with never attempted to learn spanish or try the traditional dishes. 

The ease you have had in your area may simply be because it is a different area...
Like i said, i will have different experiences from a lot of people because mine happened at a young age from younger people. It is generally teenagers i have found who make such comments.

I would never think I am of superiorty for being british, the majority of the time i class myself and my home to be Spain as when visitng the UK it feels like a foreign country to me, maybe this isbecause i have lived in spain more years than i have the uk


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## mrypg9

xabiachica said:


> me too
> 
> I would find it pretentious if a fellow Brit greeted me in Spanish, if they know that I'm English, too
> 
> I might say _buenos días _to someone of any other nationality though, if I knew they couldn't speak English & I don't speak their language - after all Spanish is likely to be our common language
> 
> more & more I'm finding myself saying Bon Día though ( I really _must _find time for Valenciano lessons! )


I once attended a meeting of the Estepona Foreigners Association, a group made up of a huge number of nationalities. It was chaired by a Concejala who spoke fluent English and who conducted the meeting in English, a language most of the assorted foreigners present understood. 
An annoying pretentious little English [email protected] insisted on speaking in Spanish when making a point. The Concejala had to translate what he said into English for the benefit of many of the other attendees.
Now that is one of my definitions of rudeness...apart from also defining oneself as a complete [email protected]


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## baldilocks

xabiachica said:


> me too
> 
> I would find it pretentious if a fellow Brit greeted me in Spanish, if they know that I'm English, too
> 
> I might say _buenos días _to someone of any other nationality though, if I knew they couldn't speak English & I don't speak their language - after all Spanish is likely to be our common language
> 
> more & more I'm finding myself saying Bon Día though ( I really _must _find time for Valenciano lessons! )


But they don't know that I am English any more than I know they are English - it is just the way they react when they are greeted in Spanish. I speak to the French guy and his family in French, because I know they are French but at first sight, I speak, for starters, in Spanish which is what anybody here might expect, after all, we are in Spain, are we not?


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## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> I think a fortune could be made selling whips for people who feel they should flagellate themselves for being born British..


Not if you are going to use them for immoral purposes.


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## mrypg9

emmamayb said:


> if you re read my post i said there are 'so many' holidays makers i did not say all.liv



I would rather say 'the vast majority of holidaymakers'. Most people who holiday in Spain come with families. They are not all heading for Magaluf or San Antonio.
They want a family holiday.
Another demographic is the older retired person. Of course some of us oldies can give you youngsters a head start when it comes to riotous and unseemly behaviour. But again, very many are happy with lawn bowling, a pot of tea and a snooze in the sun...


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## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> Not if you are going to use them for immoral purposes.


Or religious.....

Hair shirts on offer, three for the price of two....get your penance gear here...


Holy Mary's Online Lenten Penitance Store...flogging everything cheap...!! (So to speak)


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## emmamayb

mrypg9 said:


> They want a family holiday.


I have found that it isnt a paticular person looking for a particular thing, some people act one way and another person will act another way.


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## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> Or religious.....
> 
> Hair shirts on offer, three for the price of two....get your penance gear here...
> 
> 
> Holy Mary's Online Lenten Penitance Store...flogging everything cheap...!! (So to speak)


Sorry, but for most of us, it is all put away until next Maundy Thursday.


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## xabiaxica

Rabbitcat said:


> Well I have it all planned how I am gonna fit right in with the local Spanish community.
> 
> I am buying a massive sombrero which I will wear everywhere along with my white socks n sandals and I will carry a straw donkey with me everywhere peering out from under the big hat every now and then to call people gringos.
> 
> Will fit right in


good luck finding a straw donkey...... haven't seen one for years


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## xabiaxica

emmamayb said:


> Like I said. I used javea as an example of a touristic place and stated that I have experiences racism in Calpe, as an English consumer from a Spanish worker - simply with a poor attitude, filthy looks and mutters like "p*** guiri". Maybe this is due to my age (21) and the age of the people I have encountered these comments from (mainly young Spanish)
> 
> I cannot speak for an entire community nor am i attempting to, I am merely stating that I have personally witnessed comments of the sort which are disheartening over the last 12 years i have lived and grown up on the Costa Blanca.
> 
> Again, reason for this is probably because there are so many holiday makers in the area that make no attempt to adapt and expect a lot from the Spanish workers in restaurants and bars for example.
> 
> Again, i am not attempting to speak for the whole of Spain nor am i accusing every Spanish person to be racist, not at all. Because as previously stated, I have personally witnessed some extremely welcoming and friendly people in the new area in which I am living. i am simply letting people know of instances that I have experienced generally which i see as a great shame as people like myself who make a great effort to become part of the community find it hard to fit in and be considered equal due to a bad reputation holiday makers give us.


ahhhh - so you haven't actually seen nor experienced racism in Jávea

& you're not so much talking about racism as the bad behaviour of some tourists


glad we got to the bottom of that one.............


:welcome: to the forum btw - you've had a bit of a trial by fire - but that tends to happen when you make sweeping statements!!


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## emmamayb

xabiachica said:


> ahhhh - so you haven't actually seen nor experienced racism in Jávea
> 
> & you're not so much talking about racism as the bad behaviour of some tourists
> 
> 
> glad we got to the bottom of that one.............
> 
> 
> :welcome: to the forum btw - you've had a bit of a trial by fire - but that tends to happen when you make sweeping statements!!


In the area yes. And well i would consider being called a p*** guiri as a racist comment yes  

yeah i know its been interesting to say the least, thanks, looking forward to getting to know you all better!


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## Isobella

I would be surprised if there isn't any racism in Spain, even if you haven't experienced it. People are the same the world over. How would you have felt in the UK if your village had 60% foreigners, local pub taken over by foreigners, streets full of foreign cars, your kids being held back at school by those who don't speak the language. Bound to be some resentment. Many Brits would not recognise it as they believe they are superior and everyone welcomes them with open arms. Other British tend to think they are OK. but the rest of the British aren't. Calling someone an ignorant Brit/Spaniard/German could be termed racist by some.

This is a bit like the crime in Spain thread where some claim there isn't any, perhaps google racism in Spain...If you have a few hours to spare. been lots of problems around El Ejido in Almeria.

We are ok. anyway. My Spanish teacher reckons the pecking order is the Spanish dislike the Moroccans first, second anyone black from Africa, third Gitanos.


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## jimenato

baldilocks said:


> But they don't know that I am English any more than I know they are English - it is just the way they react when they are greeted in Spanish. I speak to the French guy and his family in French, because I know they are French but at first sight, I speak, for starters, in Spanish which is what anybody here might expect, after all, we are in Spain, are we not?


You don't know they're British but you call "Ignorant Brit" after them?


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## baldilocks

jimenato said:


> You don't know they're British but you call "Ignorant Brit" after them?


I go by their reaction, and if they aren't they won't react the same way to somebody calling them that in English, e.g. if they are Dutch or German, they probably understand English and will tell me they are a different nationality.


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## Pesky Wesky

Wow, quite a thread!
A controversial subject which we have managed to discuss without insulting each other.
A new member who hasn't been scared off.
And, almost all comments on the actual subject of the thread!!!!

A free straw donkey to all participants who can find one!


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## fergie

emmamayb said:


> In the area yes. And well i would consider being called a p*** guiri as a racist comment yes
> 
> yeah i know its been interesting to say the least, thanks, looking forward to getting to know you all better!


We lived in HK for a few years, where the word ****** was used frequently by the local HK/Chinese, to describe foreigners. Originally in Cantonese it meant 'ghost man' or foreigner with western white skin. ****** was never used in a a derogatory way, towards us, only ever to describe a non-Chinese looking westerner, often with a smile and a joke.
We referred to ourselves as ******'s, never offended! never used in an offensive way!
To us it was never considered racist.
I live in Javea, in a multi national community, and enjoy the interaction between the Spanish community and the other nationals who live here, I have never experienced any racism here.


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## xabiaxica

mrypg9 said:


> I once attended a meeting of the Estepona Foreigners Association, a group made up of a huge number of nationalities. It was chaired by a Concejala who spoke fluent English and who conducted the meeting in English, a language most of the assorted foreigners present understood.
> An annoying pretentious little English [email protected] insisted on speaking in Spanish when making a point. The Concejala had to translate what he said into English for the benefit of many of the other attendees.
> Now that is one of my definitions of rudeness...apart from also defining oneself as a complete [email protected]


The same happened at a meeting held by our mayor specifically for the English speaking residents. A guy in the audience was determined to speak Spanish. In the end one of the speakers stood up and told the guy, who was English, and tbh his Spanish wasn't that great, to speak English!


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## Pesky Wesky

Isobella said:


> I would be surprised if there isn't any racism in Spain, even if you haven't experienced it. People are the same the world over. How would you have felt in the UK if your village had 60% foreigners, local pub taken over by foreigners, streets full of foreign cars, your kids being held back at school by those who don't speak the language. Bound to be some resentment. Many Brits would not recognise it as they believe they are superior and everyone welcomes them with open arms. Other British tend to think they are OK. but the rest of the British aren't. Calling someone an ignorant Brit/Spaniard/German could be termed racist by some.
> 
> This is a bit like the crime in Spain thread where some claim there isn't any, perhaps google racism in Spain...If you have a few hours to spare. been lots of problems around El Ejido in Almeria.
> 
> We are ok. anyway. My Spanish teacher reckons the pecking order is the Spanish dislike the Moroccans first, second anyone black from Africa, third Gitanos.


Ay, Isobella, I don't think anyone thinks that there's no racism in Spain (if anyone does, please post about it!), nor did people say that there wasn't any crime in Spain on the other thread. The only person I think who might thruthfully make that claim is Hepa (who lives on the island El Hierro).

And what your Spanish teacher told you is more or less what I wrote about in post number 15 and 21


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## Gazeebo

Rabbitcat said:


> Well I have it all planned how I am gonna fit right in with the local Spanish community.
> 
> I am buying a massive sombrero which I will wear everywhere along with my white socks n sandals and I will carry a straw donkey with me everywhere peering out from under the big hat every now and then to call people gringos.
> 
> Will fit right in


Go you careful Rabbicat - my OH wears sandals and socks.  Only because he has two fused ankles and finds it hard to walk. Mind you, I have had to stop him tying knots in his hanky and using this as a sunhat.

I do get the impulse to walk ten paces behind when he is in his sandals and socks!!! I have burnt all the hankies and replaced them with paper ones.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Rabbitcat said:


> Well I have it all planned how I am gonna fit right in with the local Spanish community.
> 
> I am buying a massive sombrero which I will wear everywhere along with my white socks n sandals and I will carry a straw donkey with me everywhere peering out from under the big hat every now and then to call people gringos.
> 
> Will fit right in


****** is the Latin American version of Guiri. It's usually used disrespectfully to refer to "white" foreigners ie The British, Germmans, Norwegians..., not Africans for example. However, it is often used as a joke as someone else pointed out, or affectionately.
My husband and daughter occasionally call me guiri...


----------



## angil

fergie said:


> We lived in HK for a few years, where the word ****** was used frequently by the local HK/Chinese, to describe foreigners. Originally in Cantonese it meant 'ghost man' or foreigner with western white skin. ****** was never used in a a derogatory way, towards us, only ever to describe a non-Chinese looking westerner, often with a smile and a joke.
> We referred to ourselves as ******'s, never offended! never used in an offensive way!
> To us it was never considered racist.
> I live in Javea, in a multi national community, and enjoy the interaction between the Spanish community and the other nationals who live here, I have never experienced any racism here.


Wayguki in Korea, and it is often used in a racist way. 
We were in a taxi in Hong Kong once and heard our taxi driver (called Mr Sh*t!; me and the kids still laugh about that one!) talking on his radio about the ******* in his cab. My kids understood that word from some comedy Kung Fu movie! We called ourselves whiteys in Korea! As a rule, the every day (non racist Korean!) referred to us as foreigners. I hate that word. Makes me think of foreign object ie. something that doesn't belong. & that certainly wasn't how we were treat as a whole for our 14 years there.
I have experienced racism in Spain, just as I did in Korea. But just as in Korea have met far more locals I like than dislike. I am sure the other Asian countries I visited too may have a few racists, I dunno! People are people there is racism here just as everywhere else.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

emmamayb said:


> I would never think I am of superiorty for being british, the majority of the time i class myself and my home to be Spain as when visitng the UK it feels like a foreign country to me, maybe this isbecause i have lived in spain more years than i have the uk


Me too, but not as a child. You comments will be invaluable on here, especially to people who are coming with older children.



emmamayb said:


> In the area yes. And well i would consider being called a p*** guiri as a racist comment yes
> 
> yeah i know its been interesting to say the least, thanks, looking forward to getting to know you all better!


Stick around, it'll be good to have your insight


----------



## Chopera

Rabbitcat said:


> For us ignoramuses what is the literal translation of guiri? Is it slang or does it have various meanings? Thanks


According to the Spanish Academy (RAE) the term "guiri" originates from "Guiristino", which was the Basque way of saying "Cristino". Cristinos were supporters of the Queen Cristina during the 19th century civil wars, and thereafter the word was used to refer to Liberals and especially government soldiers:

guiristino | Ya está el listo que todo lo sabe

However I'm not sure how it came to refer to people of northern European descent. Spanish people tell me that the term conveys the fact that they can't understand what they are saying (like talking "gibberish" I guess).

It is not a racist term in it's own right (something the OP needs to learn before accusing others of being ignorant) at least no more than calling people "poms", "jocks", "yanks", etc.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Chopera said:


> According to the Spanish Academy (RAE) the term "guiri" originates from "Guiristino", which was the Basque way of saying "Cristino". Cristinos were supporters of the Queen Cristina during the 19th century civil wars, and thereafter the word was used to refer to Liberals and especially government soldiers:
> 
> guiristino | Ya está el listo que todo lo sabe
> 
> However I'm not sure how it came to refer to people of northern European descent. Spanish people tell me that the term conveys the fact that they can't understand what they are saying (like talking "gibberish" I guess).
> 
> It is not a racist term in it's own right (something the OP needs to learn before accusing others of being ignorant) at least no more than calling people "poms", "jocks", "yanks", etc.


Racist no, derogatory.


----------



## mrypg9

Racism is found in every country and culture in the world so I guess you'd have to call it a human characteristic....however, I think we tend to use the word too casually and apply it to instances where the issue isn't racism but ignorance and sometimes rudeness. 
Surely 'racism' has to involve an element of superiority, the idea that one group is inferior to another because of skin colour, ethnicity or culture. Even there there are subtle distinctions: I believe that some cultures are inferior to others but I don't think that makes me a racist as I am expressing an opinion for which I can give reasons, albeit reasons others may dispute.
Humans discriminate like they breathe. It's natural Most people prioritise family and friends over strangers. We tend to be friendly with those who share our interests. 
A lot of what is called 'racism' these days seems to me to be more intolerance, which hasn't yet been criminalised. Sometimes it's down to misunderstanding of other's cultures and customs. 
'Real' racism wrecks lives. I once dealt with casework where a black teacher was greeted each morning as she walked up the path to her workplace by students hanging out f windows making monkey noises and gestures. That's racism.

An interesting example of cultural misunderstanding is the English habit of the 'long goodbye' - we can take up to fifteen minutes to simply part from our family or friends after a social event, from the 'Oh well, time I made a move' to the 'Say goodbye to Granny - No, say goodbye nicely' to the palaver at the gate 'We must do this again sometime soon' and so on.

The first evening we spent at our Czech friend's house, we said we thought we should be going so she gave us our coats, opened the door, we stood on the step...and the door was shut in our faces. We went home pondering what we had done to cause such offence. Enquiries elicited the information that Czechs didn't linger over Goodbyes.


----------



## Gazeebo

A thought, if the 'racism' has come from youngsters, perhaps this could be because of the unemployment amongst the young Spanish generation and they dislike other than Spanish getting the jobs?

Whatever. It is how you deal with it - smile and let it go over your head.


----------



## xabiaxica

fergie said:


> We lived in HK for a few years, where the word ****** was used frequently by the local HK/Chinese, to describe foreigners. Originally in Cantonese it meant 'ghost man' or foreigner with western white skin. ****** was never used in a a derogatory way, towards us, only ever to describe a non-Chinese looking westerner, often with a smile and a joke.
> We referred to ourselves as ******'s, never offended! never used in an offensive way!
> To us it was never considered racist.
> I live in Javea, in a multi national community, and enjoy the interaction between the Spanish community and the other nationals who live here,* I have never experienced any racism here*.


phew!!

I'm glad it isn't just me  


I'm sure there must be racism here as there more than likely is everywhere

but I can say hand on heart that I've never experienced it, nor seen it, nor known anyone in Jávea who has suffered it


----------



## mrypg9

Pom, Mick, Paddy, Yank, Jock, Canuck, Frog, Hun, Jerry, Eyetie, ***, Limey, Bubble, Jam Roll....I guess these are all 'racist' terms now....


----------



## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> Pom, Mick, Paddy, Yank, Jock, Canuck, Frog, Hun, Jerry, Eyetie, ***, Limey, Bubble, Jam Roll....I guess these are all 'racist' terms now....


But does it depend on the target being offended by the term. In my experience most people called Paddy or Jock in a friendly way are quite happy with the term.


----------



## xabiaxica

Gazeebo said:


> A thought, if the 'racism' has come from youngsters, perhaps this could be because of the unemployment amongst the young Spanish generation and they dislike other than Spanish getting the jobs?
> 
> Whatever. It is how you deal with it - smile and let it go over your head.



that occurred to me as well - so I asked my daughter who I think is more or less the same age as Emma, if she had ever experienced racism - & neither has she

even though she has a contracted job & a lot of her friends - every one of them Spanish - don't have, & have never had, work


----------



## mrypg9

xabiachica said:


> phew!!
> 
> I'm glad it isn't just me
> 
> 
> I'm sure there must be racism here as there more than likely is everywhere
> 
> but I can say hand on heart that I've never experienced it, nor seen it, nor known anyone in Jávea who has suffered it


Nor me down here neither....
And if I did I wouldn't put up with it.
Just as I wouldn't put up with poor food in a restaurant, whether 'touristy', 'Spanish' or Michelin starred.


----------



## Lolito

'if someone says 'p*** guiri' i would find that as an INSULT for the word 'p***' but the word guiri, for me, it is just a word that for most of us spanish people comes from guirigay, and when we were little, we used to name the 'guardia urbana' as guiri. The man that used to stand in the middle of the road directing traffic.

Guiri therefore for us, and for the other 7 people that are right now sitting next to me at home, is not racist or insulting. 

In the other hand...'p***' is just not on.

Guiri, i repeat, comes from guirigay, i remember many years ago if you went into a bar and it was very noisy, you would say' vaya guiri que hay aqui' or even when there were lots of people making noise and you couldn't pick up any conversations, you would say 'vaya guiri'... 

maybe it has evolved in time and it now also means 'foreign'.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Lolito said:


> 'if someone says 'p*** guiri' i would find that as an INSULT for the word 'p***' but the word guiri, for me, it is just a word that for most of us spanish people comes from guirigay, and when we were little, we used to name the 'guardia urbana' as guiri. The man that used to stand in the middle of the road directing traffic.
> 
> Guiri therefore for us, and for the other 7 people that are right now sitting next to me at home, is not racist or insulting.
> 
> In the other hand...'p***' is just not on.
> 
> Guiri, i repeat, comes from guirigay, i remember many years ago if you went into a bar and it was very noisy, you would say' vaya guiri que hay aqui' or even when there were lots of people making noise and you couldn't pick up any conversations, you would say 'vaya guiri'...
> 
> maybe it has evolved in time and it now also means 'foreign'.


From the Real Academia
*guiri**.*
(Acort. del vasco _guiristino_, cristino).
* 1.* m. coloq._ Ál._ *tojo* (‖ planta papilionácea).
* 2.* com. Nombre con que, durante las guerras civiles del siglo XIX, designaban los carlistas a los partidarios de la reina Cristina, y después a todos los liberales, y en especial a los soldados del gobierno.
* 3.* com. coloq. Turista extranjero. _La costa está llena de guiris._
* 4.* com. coloq. Miembro de la Guardia Civil.


----------



## Lolito

It might be that, but we used it for other things before we started using it for foreigners. Some also says it comes from Turkey, meaning unfaithful and foreigner. Lol. 

What i meant is that the word guiri to mean 'noisy', that i have always used comes from guirigay, rather than cristino or whatever the real academia says for guiri as foreigners?


----------



## Justina

*Reaction*



baldilocks said:


> I go by their reaction, and if they aren't they won't react the same way to somebody calling them that in English, e.g. if they are Dutch or German, they probably understand English and will tell me they are a different nationality.


I think that you are just being stroppy, Baldi. If you know it is a Brit, looks like a Brit then say good morning, and if you can't bring yourself to say that then what about hola? Although, I can't tell the difference between a Brit and a German, until they start chattering.
After three and a bit years here, I can truly say that nobody has in anyway treated me in a derogatory fashion, which is more than I can say about Mexico, my last home.
This thread amuses me.


----------



## Lolito

La palabra guiri: el guirigay de guiri for all those that can read Spanish.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Lolito said:


> La palabra guiri: el guirigay de guiri for all those that can read Spanish.


So you can see that the word has evolved since your day.
Here are some examples...
https://www.google.es/search?q=guir...oTCNvysLf2tccCFcG0GgodvDQNXw&biw=1217&bih=929


----------



## Lolito

wow, all those photos of guiris doing stupid things.... lol! is that what guiris do?


----------



## jimenato

> An interesting example of cultural misunderstanding is the English habit of the 'long goodbye' - we can take up to fifteen minutes to simply part from our family or friends after a social event, from the 'Oh well, time I made a move' to the 'Say goodbye to Granny - No, say goodbye nicely' to the palaver at the gate 'We must do this again sometime soon' and so on.


Ye Gods - how I hate that! When we need to go I just head for the door.



> baldilocks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by mrypg9 View Post
> Pom, Mick, Paddy, Yank, Jock, Canuck, Frog, Hun, Jerry, Eyetie, ***, Limey, Bubble, Jam Roll....I guess these are all 'racist' terms now....
> 
> 
> 
> But does it depend on the target being offended by the term. In my experience most people called Paddy or Jock in a friendly way are quite happy with the term.
Click to expand...

Correct - it's all about context and intent.

I've never seen 'guiri' as racist nor even derogatory.

BTW what does 'p***' mean in 'p*** guiri'?:confused2:


----------



## Pesky Wesky

jimenato said:


> Ye Gods - how I hate that! When we need to go I just head for the door.
> 
> 
> 
> Correct - it's all about context and intent.
> 
> I've never seen 'guiri' as racist nor even derogatory.
> 
> BTW what does 'p***' mean in 'p*** guiri'?:confused2:


Give it a P, give it a U, give it a T. Add an A or an O


----------



## Horlics

Pesky Wesky said:


> Ah well, it would be interesting to hear what the other people living in Javea have to say about it, because I haven't heard about racism there before


There isn't any.

I've just accepted an invitation to dinner tomorrow night with 8 to 10 locals. They'll even be polite enough to switch to Castellano due to our presence. Lovely people.


----------



## Horlics

emmamayb said:


> Yeah javea is the least bad because they get SO much money from tourism there and the people who visit are a bit nicer and from all over the world. Its just more of a general statement of something i notived over the last 11 years



So you've spent enough time in each of the three places you mentioned to meet enough people to be able to grade the different levels racism?

How much time did that take? In what form and place did the interaction take place?

(I should really read the whole thread before commenting, I know... only on page 2 at the mo)


----------



## Horlics

emmamayb said:


> Yeah I agree. The word used when comments are made directly translates to the word "foreigner" so it isnt targetted mainly at English people at all. It is more of a general term used.


This is getting a bit random now.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Horlics said:


> (I should really read the whole thread before commenting, I know... only on page 2 at the mo)


That's a good idea!


----------



## Horlics

xabiachica said:


> me too
> 
> I would find it pretentious if a fellow Brit greeted me in Spanish, if they know that I'm English, too
> 
> I might say _buenos días _to someone of any other nationality though, if I knew they couldn't speak English & I don't speak their language - after all Spanish is likely to be our common language
> 
> more & more I'm finding myself saying Bon Día though ( I really _must _find time for Valenciano lessons! )


I say hola and buenos dias to Brits sometimes but only because it's what happens to come out of my mouth before I think about it.

Last time I went back to the UK I said gracias to the bloke behind the bar in my local... again, I just didn't think.

I do the bon dia thing too!


----------



## Horlics

Pesky Wesky said:


> That's a good idea!


I know, it was mine


----------



## Isla Verde

Justina said:


> . . .
> After three and a bit years here, I can truly say that nobody has in anyway treated me in a derogatory fashion, which is more than I can say about Mexico, my last home.


I've been living in Mexico for almost eight years and have always been treated well by the Mexicans I've met, some of whom have become good friends. The only exception might be a few casual anti-Semitic comments made in my presence by Mexicans who don't know I'm Jewish. Of course, things like that never happen in Spain, correct?


----------



## Justina

*Racism*



Isla Verde said:


> I've been living in Mexico for almost eight years and have always been treated well by the Mexicans I've met, some of whom have become good friends. The only exception might be a few casual anti-Semitic comments made in my presence by Mexicans who don't know I'm Jewish. Of course, things like that never happen in Spain, correct?


Most of the rude comments came from drivers in the vein of pin..e gringa or pu.a gringa. Not sure which was more offensive. With eight years in Mexico you will be well aware that Mexicans can be just as gross with their fellow countrymen. One of the favourites...pi..e indito springs to mind


----------



## Isla Verde

Justina said:


> Most of the rude comments came from drivers in the vein of pin..e gringa or pu.a gringa. Not sure which was more offensive. With eight years in Mexico you will be well aware that Mexicans can be just as gross with their fellow countrymen. One of the favourites...pi..e indito springs to mind


I don't have a car in Mexico and get around on foot or public transportation, where sometimes younger passengers actually get up and give me their seat! It must be my gray hair.  Maybe that's why I've never had that particular epithet aimed at me. I know that Mexicans have a colorful insult vocabulary, but then so do Spaniards. Or are they perfect angels when driving along city streets or out in the country?


----------



## jimenato

Horlics said:


> I say hola and buenos dias to Brits sometimes but only because it's what happens to come out of my mouth before I think about it.
> 
> Last time I went back to the UK I said gracias to the bloke behind the bar in my local... again, I just didn't think.
> 
> I do the bon dia thing too!


It's _boner dia_ where we were.

I have said Hola like you - because I wasn't paying attention. We used to run a bar/restaurant in our village so more people would recognise us than we would them. 

Once I met an English girl (who I should have known but didn't recognise) walking her dog along the river and gave her a cheery 'hola!'. she was obviously put out and I don't blame her.

Baldi - I think you should reappraise your casual greeting protocol.


----------



## xabiaxica

Horlics said:


> I say hola and buenos dias to Brits sometimes but only because it's what happens to come out of my mouth before I think about it.
> 
> Last time I went back to the UK I said gracias to the bloke behind the bar in my local... again, I just didn't think.
> 
> I do the bon dia thing too!


I remember asking for a 'solo' and a 'con gas' on a visit to the UK. 
And my daughter speaking in Spanish to the woman stacking shelves in Tesco
But yes, outside the house in Spain I'll usually speak Spanish as a matter of course. 
But if I KNOW someone is English I'll speak English. 

A few weeks ago a group of us met at the new Indian restaurant in the port. I automatically asked for the table my friend had booked, in Spanish. The greeter had no clue what I was saying. As the evening progressed it became apparent that only one of the staff speaks Spanish. Though all speak English. Likely they have all been brought over from India specially. 
I'm sure that in a year or so they will all be speaking competent Spanish


----------



## xabiaxica

Isla Verde said:


> I don't have a car in Mexico and get around on foot or public transportation, where sometimes younger passengers actually get up and give me their seat! It must be my gray hair.  Maybe that's why I've never had that particular epithet aimed at me. I know that Mexicans have a colorful insult vocabulary, but then so do Spaniards. Or are they perfect angels when driving along city streets or out in the country?


That's it though isn't it? Colourful language, which when translated into English might be dreadful. But depending on the tone used, could be no more nor less than a friendly greeting


----------



## Pesky Wesky

A Spanish friend of mine invarabily greets people with ¡c*ño + name!
He's a university profesor.

This thread seems to be getting confused. To me it seems that lot of people are saying they have not perceived racism and have not been treated in a racist way, but does that mean they are saying that racism in Spain doesn't exist?
For my part, I'm very sure that there is racism in Spain, and maybe this is the same the world over, I don't know, but there are different degrees depending on who you are (Russian, Romanian, South American, African, black or not) and depending on where you are in Spain. In the north of Spain there are very few immigrants at all and those that are there are well tolerated.
Where I am there's a mix of immigrants and I never hear of agressive actions. There is the very occasional graffiti up on a wall. In the schools about 15 - 18 years ago there was a problem with Latin Kings (South American group), but since then no big thing. Is there name calling and racist comments behind people's backs? Of course, talk of Los _Moros_, los _******_ and _Claro, ya sabes como son..._ , but beyond that, little to report, in this area. In other places there are more problems. There's something stirring in Salou right now, and in the past as someone else said I think in Ecija. Try living in Algeciras and Ceuta
My own opinion is that racism isn't a big problem in Spain right now, but not because of the accepting nature of the Spanish, but because the highest group of immigrants are us or northern Europeans, and for the most part we have similar cultures, we are not financial refugees, and most of the time we are not darker than the Spanish.

Then for some reason we got on to language and swear words.
I think swear words are much more common in Spain. As Xabiachica has said, if they are translated they are strong, very strong, but most of the time they are not used with their initial meaning, as in the case above, BUT, I think they still can be and it will depend on the situation and who, and how it is said.
The phrase quoted by the OP, pu*o guiri, is an insult.


----------



## jimenato

The thread is also confusing xenophobia and racism.


----------



## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> A Spanish friend of mine invarabily greets people with ¡c*ño + name!
> He's a university profesor
> 
> Then for some reason we got on to language and swear words.
> I think swear words are much more common in Spain. As Xabiachica has said, if they are translated they are strong, very strong, but most of the time they are not used with their initial meaning, as in the case above, BUT, I think they still can be and it will depend on the situation and who, and how it is said.
> The phrase quoted by the OP, pu*o guiri, is an insult.


I remember that shortly after I arrived here I posted about how nice was not to hear people effing and c- ing everywhere. You replied that I obviously knew very little Spanish.
How true that was.....now, over seven years later and with fairly fluent Spanish, I find myself resorting to the c, p and j words when astounded or enraged. My favourite expression : En la p*** calle!
And as you say, these words are used by all kinds of people at all kinds of occasions.


----------



## mrypg9

jimenato said:


> The thread is also confusing xenophobia and racism.


As is often the case.


----------



## baldilocks

jimenato said:


> The thread is also confusing xenophobia and racism.


But what is a fear of xenophobia or a fear of racism?


----------



## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> I remember that shortly after I arrived here I posted about how nice was not to hear people effing and c- ing everywhere. You replied that I obviously knew very little Spanish.
> How true that was.....now, over seven years later and with fairly fluent Spanish, I find myself resorting to the c, p and j words when astounded or enraged. My favourite expression : En la p*** calle!
> And as you say, these words are used by all kinds of people at all kinds of occasions.


The basis for one of my favourites too, _A la p*** calle,_ from Camera Café, a brilliant little tv programme. I'll look for an excerpt when I get back from El Escorial


----------



## Pesky Wesky

jimenato said:


> The thread is also confusing xenophobia and racism.


Interesting.
In fact I looked it up and found this from UNESCO, no less


> Xenophobia and racism often overlap, but are distinct phenomena. Whereas racism usually entails distinction based on physical characteristic differences, such as skin colour, hair type, facial features, etc, xenophobia implies behaviour based on the idea that the other is foreign to or originates from outside the community or nation.4
> 
> Because differences in physical characteristics are often taken to distinguish the 'other' from the common community, it is often difficult to differentiate between racism and xenophobia as motivations for behaviour. At the same time, expression of xenophobia may occur against people of identical physical characteristics when such people arrive, return or migrate to States or areas where occupants consider them outsiders.5


Xenophobia | United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization

So what the OP was experiencing was xenophobia, is that it?
Got to leave it there for now folks!


----------



## Chopera

Pesky Wesky said:


> Racist no, derogatory.


My wife (who is Spanish) is often called a "guiri" by her family when she speaks English. I'm pretty sure they are not being derogatory.


----------



## jimenato

Pesky Wesky said:


> Interesting.
> In fact I looked it up and found this from UNESCO, no lessXenophobia | United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization
> 
> So what the OP was experiencing was xenophobia, is that it?
> Got to leave it there for now folks!


Yes - I would say so.


----------



## Isobella

Chopera said:


> My wife (who is Spanish) is often called a "guiri" by her family when she speaks English. I'm pretty sure they are not being derogatory.


This is similar to the N word when black people use it to one another or Gay people call each other queens. Doesn't imply that it is never derogatory, depends on context etc.


----------



## Isobella

This is a mix of racism and xenafobia.



Andalucía, con 33 casos, la tercera comunidad que más episodios racistas registró durante 2009, según el Informe Raxen


----------



## Rabbitcat

Exactly, it's all about context.
Our neighbour sprayed this in paint on our house

salimos de nuestro pueblo o te mataremos. perro gordo

I believe it translates roughly as welcome to our village my friend


----------



## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> A Spanish friend of mine invarabily greets people with *¡c*ño + name!*
> He's a university profesor.
> 
> This thread seems to be getting confused. To me it seems that lot of people are saying they have not perceived racism and have not been treated in a racist way, but does that mean they are saying that racism in Spain doesn't exist?
> For my part, I'm very sure that there is racism in Spain, and maybe this is the same the world over, I don't know, but there are different degrees depending on who you are (Russian, Romanian, South American, African, black or not) and depending on where you are in Spain. In the north of Spain there are very few immigrants at all and those that are there are well tolerated.
> Where I am there's a mix of immigrants and I never hear of agressive actions. There is the very occasional graffiti up on a wall. In the schools about 15 - 18 years ago there was a problem with Latin Kings (South American group), but since then no big thing. Is there name calling and racist comments behind people's backs? Of course, talk of Los _Moros_, los _******_ and _Claro, ya sabes como son..._ , but beyond that, little to report, in this area. In other places there are more problems. There's something stirring in Salou right now, and in the past as someone else said I think in Ecija. Try living in Algeciras and Ceuta
> My own opinion is that racism isn't a big problem in Spain right now, but not because of the accepting nature of the Spanish, but because the highest group of immigrants are us or northern Europeans, and for the most part we have similar cultures, we are not financial refugees, and most of the time we are not darker than the Spanish.
> 
> Then for some reason we got on to language and swear words.
> I think swear words are much more common in Spain. As Xabiachica has said, if they are translated they are strong, very strong, but most of the time they are not used with their initial meaning, as in the case above, BUT, I think they still can be and it will depend on the situation and who, and how it is said.
> The phrase quoted by the OP, pu*o guiri, is an insult.


yep - that's the greeting I meant - I often have to translate Spanish sear words explain to my adult students who have children in school here, that although they might find it offensive & yes, the English translation is foul - it isn't _necessarily _bad in Spanish & to the Spanish themselves

it does go the other way too - we had some Spanish 12 year old girls staying with us a couple of years ago - & I had to explain to the that you can't say the 'f' word all the time in English, because most English speaking people _will _find that offensive - especially coming from a 12 year old girl! 

I do agree that p*** guiri is clearly insulting - but guiri on its own isn't ime



& you're right - as I said, I'm sure there must be racism here - but I've never experienced it towards me personally nor in general towards other Brits here


----------



## Chopera

Isobella said:


> This is similar to the N word when black people use it to one another or Gay people call each other queens. *Doesn't imply that it is never derogatory, depends on context etc.*


But that applies to a whole load of words. If someone calls me a "**** inglés" does the word "inglés" suddenly become a derogatory term? It's why I originally said that *on it's own* the word guiri is not racist. And I'll add that it's not derogatory either. 

It really is just a general term for people of northern European descent. As it happens, you may find it often used in exasperation by Spaniards trying to understand or deal with people they don't understand (hence "guiri" also conveys the fact that northern Europeans appear to talk gibberish). But similarly you'll hear guiris often talk about Spain and the Spanish in exasperation because they don't understand the language or culture either.


----------



## Alcalaina

Rabbitcat said:


> For us ignoramuses what is the literal translation of guiri? Is it slang or does it have various meanings? Thanks


Specifically a pale-skinned foreigner from Northern Europe. It can be derogatory or affectionate depending on the context.


----------



## emmamayb

Chopera said:


> ] the word guiri is not racist. And I'll add that it's not derogatory either.


Surely any word that groups a race or ethnicity of people together and is used when insulting someone is classed as derogatory or borderline racist? If someone is classing you and stereotyping you surely you can see how that is extremely offensive and belittling? (when used a long side words such as p***)


----------



## Alcalaina

I've come in a bit late but the main examples of racism I've come across in my little corner of Spain were from certain Brits.

The OH met a Spanish guy once who thought, among other things, that immigrants from North Africa brought in diseases and should be deported. But I've never come across ill feeling about Europeans - quite the opposite - though there aren't exactly a lot of us here.

I can understand intolerance building up in places which get a lot of Brits behaving inconsiderately, or places like Salou or Magaluf where they drink themselves silly and go on the rampage. When these scenes are shown on TV news it doesn't do our image any favours. But most people are sensible enough to know we aren't all like that. I'd say that in general Spanish people are extremely tolerant.


----------



## baldilocks

Alcalaina said:


> I can understand intolerance building up in places which get a lot of Brits behaving inconsiderately, or places like Salou or Magaluf where they drink themselves silly and go on the rampage. When these scenes are shown on TV news it doesn't do our image any favours. But most people are sensible enough to know we aren't all like that. I'd say that in general Spanish people are extremely tolerant.


Likewise with football crowds.


----------



## Chopera

emmamayb said:


> Surely any word that groups a race or ethnicity of people together and is used when insulting someone is classed as derogatory or borderline racist? If someone is classing you and stereotyping you surely you can see how that is extremely offensive and belittling? (when used a long side words such as p***)


But in that case the words "Chinese", "American", "black", "white", etc, etc are classed as derogatory or borderline racist when used to insult someone.

My point is that these words are not derogatory or racist on their own, and neither is "guiri". Of course they could be used in a derogatory way, or they could be used to convey xenophobia, as could many words. But I don't want people to think that if they hear the word guiri being used that it is necessarily derogatory, because it isn't.


----------



## emmamayb

Chopera said:


> But in that case the words "Chinese", "American", "black", "white", etc, etc are classed as derogatory or borderline racist when used to insult someone.
> 
> My point is that these words are not derogatory or racist on their own, and neither is "guiri". Of course they could be used in a derogatory way, or they could be used to convey xenophobia, as could many words. But I don't want people to think that if they hear the word guiri being used that it is necessarily derogatory, because it isn't.


I think its just a case of the context. I have never personally heard it in a joking, friendly manner where im from its only ever been used in a negative manner, usually when they suspect I do not speak nor understand what they are saying and are unaware I know the language bilingually.


----------



## xabiaxica

emmamayb said:


> I think its just a case of the context. I have never personally heard it in a joking, friendly manner where im from its only ever been used in a negative manner, usually when they suspect I do not speak nor understand what they are saying and are unaware I know the language bilingually.


as several of us have said - & a lot of us speak a high level of Spanish or are even bilingual - of course **** guiri is an insult

I'm amazed you've never heard guiri used affectionately though!! 


maybe you just go to the wrong places or mix with the wrong crowd?

I wouldn't let it bother me though, if I were you - the racists/xenophobics are a minority & not worth bothering about


----------



## xabiaxica

xabiachica said:


> as several of us have said - & a lot of us speak a high level of Spanish or are even bilingual - of course **** guiri is an insult
> 
> I'm amazed you've never heard guiri used affectionately though!!
> 
> 
> maybe you just go to the wrong places or mix with the wrong crowd?
> 
> I wouldn't let it bother me though, if I were you - the racists/xenophobics are a minority & not worth bothering about



lol - the sweary filter got the p word


----------



## emmamayb

xabiachica said:


> as several of us have said - & a lot of us speak a high level of Spanish or are even bilingual - of course **** guiri is an insult
> 
> I'm amazed you've never heard guiri used affectionately though!!
> 
> 
> maybe you just go to the wrong places or mix with the wrong crowd?
> 
> I wouldn't let it bother me though, if I were you - the racists/xenophobics are a minority & not worth bothering about


Its probably just the area i grew up in. Was usually just from people I didnt know in shops or whatever. Elche is nothing like this much prefer it


----------



## Isobella

Words don't hurt much. The main thing to worry about is being treated equally in the job market, health service, law courts etc.

I do agree that most Foreigners would not be aware if they were being insulted unless they pick up on body language. Except for people on this forum who are mostly fluent and have loads of Spanish friends they state that they haven't experienced racism (but if they have it's the Brits fault ha ha) no football hooliganism or drunkeness either.


----------



## xabiaxica

Isobella said:


> Words don't hurt much. The main thing to worry about is being treated equally in the job market, health service, law courts etc.
> 
> I do agree that most Foreigners would not be aware if they were being insulted unless they pick up on body language. Except for people on this forum who are mostly fluent and have loads of Spanish friends they state that they haven't experienced racism (but if they have it's the Brits fault ha ha) no football hooliganism or drunkeness either.


drunkenness - yes I see lots of that!

all ages & many nationalities!

no football hooliganism here that I know of though

you don't seem to believe that a lot of us speak Spanish & mix with Spanish locals, for some reason 


maybe it's because we do, that we haven't personally experienced racism


----------



## emmamayb

Isobella said:


> Words don't hurt much. The main thing to worry about is being treated equally in the job market, health service, law courts etc.
> 
> I do agree that most Foreigners would not be aware if they were being insulted unless they pick up on body language. Except for people on this forum who are mostly fluent and have loads of Spanish friends they state that they haven't experienced racism (but if they have it's the Brits fault ha ha) no football hooliganism or drunkeness either.


I wouldnt blame myself for being a victim of racism. I am simply stereotyped into a group of people that some Spanish people arent keen on probably due to my coloring and the way i dress, and i am evidently not Spanish. Then to over hear insults and racist remarks when i am keeping myself to myself? 

Can't say I agree with that statement. Especially when I am also one of the people who mingles and integrates with the natives and fully embraces the spanish culture and way of life. This is why I began this thread and stated that it is a great shame.


----------



## Gazeebo

I believe the initial comparison was between Elche and Calpe. Perhaps therein lies the answer! I originally come from London, a city with many races, and although there is obviously racism, I never witnessed any problems when out with friends of different nationalities. However, I moved to Norfolk and definitely hit racism. Was this because they were not so used to having to share their space with different nationalities perhaps? Years on and I believe people have become more accepting around here.
However, just a thought - I do remember one night out when my friend and I (a Scottish lady) were in a pub and a New Zealand (gentleman) asked my friend if she cracked nuts with her nose! Sorry, just had to put that one in, I know it's not racism, but I do find it funny. Don't think she did though.
Yes, I believe comments all depend upon the context and intonation. Last year I experienced some dreadful name calling from a Lithuanian teenager who was in my class. The language was appalling and aimed directly at me. Yes, I could have taken it very badly, but instead I used the proper course and he was 'dismissed' from college. He thought he was safe in the fact that I did not understand Lithuanian - I don't - but I have ways and means!!! He was one bad egg in a class of 15, so thankfully in the minority.
I was called a 'pom' in Australia and took it was a term of endearment!
It happens the world over and in an ideal world would not happen, but it does and probably always will.


----------



## Horlics

Pesky Wesky said:


> This thread seems to be getting confused. To me it seems that lot of people are saying they have not perceived racism and have not been treated in a racist way, but does that mean they are saying that racism in Spain doesn't exist?


Attendance at just one La Liga futbol match is enough to know that it does exist in Spain.


----------



## Horlics

jimenato said:


> The thread is also confusing xenophobia and racism.


Yeah, it almost sank into semantics debate. We knew what the Op was talking about and she chose to dub it racism. A debate about whether she (and now others) are using the right word or not is about as much fun as a poke in the eye, and equally painful.


----------



## mrypg9

Horlics said:


> Attendance at just one La Liga futbol match is enough to know that it does exist in Spain.


Haven't there been cases where racists incidents occurred at Spanish sporting events? And wasn't a fan killed recently after a local Derby match in Madrid?
Of course there's football hooliganism and racist chanting in Spain. There's homophobic chanting too. I recently translated a report on homophobia in sport for ArcoIris and it detailed several very unpleasant instances at Spanish matches. The problem seemed worse at local level, with smaller towns and villages, according to the report..
When you think about it, why shouldn't Spaniards be as racist, rude, homophobic or generally as unpleasant as any other nationality? Unless you are someone who sees Spain as some kind of paradise on earth and elevates everything Spanish above every other nationality, you can't set Spanish people on a pedestal.

I often ponder on how well Moroccans are treated in Spain. I can't recall seeing many Moroccans enjoying a coffee or eating out with their families at local bars and restaurants. A Spanish acquaintance recently launched into a vile tirade against Moroccans...all thieves, idle, woman-beaters etc. etc.


----------



## Mushu7

emmamayb said:


> I wouldnt blame myself for being a victim of racism. I am simply stereotyped into a group of people that some Spanish people arent keen on probably due to my coloring and the way i dress, and i am evidently not Spanish. Then to over hear insults and racist remarks when i am keeping myself to myself?
> 
> Can't say I agree with that statement. Especially when I am also one of the people who mingles and integrates with the natives and fully embraces the spanish culture and way of life. This is why I began this thread and stated that it is a great shame.


Not every Spanish person is dark haired with olive skin y'know.

I'm suprised I got to the end of this thread - I don't understand what all the fuss is about. Some people are offensive, some people get offended. Shock horror!!

Would I be overly bothered or concerned with someone saying bad untruthful things about me if they didn't know me - nope - should you be bothered - nope.

We are ALL guilty of generalising or sterotyping people in some way, shape or form. Thats just a natural human behaviour. So it can hardly be suprising if a fellow human does the same thing.

ALSO ... stereotypes have half truths, which anyone with a sense of humour will just laugh and roll your eyes at:

Chinese with their cameras taking pictures of everything
Drunk Brits abroad
Fat Americans
Indian families with a million kids
Women drivers
White van man
Old ladies at the bingo
Crazy Jews
Brits with bad teeth
Greasy Spanish waiters
Jeremy Kyle chav guests

In the great scheme of life, it really is not a big deal.


----------



## Horlics

mrypg9 said:


> Haven't there been cases where racists incidents occurred at Spanish sporting events? And wasn't a fan killed recently after a local Derby match in Madrid?
> Of course there's football hooliganism and racist chanting in Spain. There's homophobic chanting too. I recently translated a report on homophobia in sport for ArcoIris and it detailed several very unpleasant instances at Spanish matches. The problem seemed worse at local level, with smaller towns and villages, according to the report..
> When you think about it, why shouldn't Spaniards be as racist, rude, homophobic or generally as unpleasant as any other nationality? Unless you are someone who sees Spain as some kind of paradise on earth and elevates everything Spanish above every other nationality, you can't set Spanish people on a pedestal.
> 
> I often ponder on how well Moroccans are treated in Spain. I can't recall seeing many Moroccans enjoying a coffee or eating out with their families at local bars and restaurants. A Spanish acquaintance recently launched into a vile tirade against Moroccans...all thieves, idle, woman-beaters etc. etc.


Yes there have been incidents, and yes, somebody was killed.

I went to the Santiago Bernabeu and what I witnessed outside was worse than anything I have seen in the UK. That's not to say that things aren't equally as bad in the UK and other places, but Spain can be as bad as any.

Actually, I think the UK is a shining example to much of Europe these days. And you wouldn't have seen that coming 20 years ago!


----------



## Horlics

mrypg9 said:


> When you think about it, why shouldn't Spaniards be as racist, rude, homophobic or generally as unpleasant as any other nationality? Unless you are someone who sees Spain as some kind of paradise on earth and elevates everything Spanish above every other nationality, you can't set Spanish people on a pedestal.


Exactly.


----------



## emmamayb

Mushu7 said:


> Not every Spanish person is dark haired with olive skin y'know.
> 
> I'm suprised I got to the end of this thread - I don't understand what all the fuss is about. Some people are offensive, some people get offended. Shock horror!!
> 
> Would I be overly bothered or concerned with someone saying bad untruthful things about me if they didn't know me - nope - should you be bothered - nope.
> 
> We are ALL guilty of generalising or sterotyping people in some way, shape or form. Thats just a natural human behaviour. So it can hardly be suprising if a fellow human does the same thing.
> 
> ALSO ... stereotypes have half truths, which anyone with a sense of humour will just laugh and roll your eyes at:
> 
> Chinese with their cameras taking pictures of everything
> Drunk Brits abroad
> Fat Americans
> Indian families with a million kids
> Women drivers
> White van man
> Old ladies at the bingo
> Crazy Jews
> Brits with bad teeth
> Greasy Spanish waiters
> Jeremy Kyle chav guests
> 
> In the great scheme of life, it really is not a big deal.


Tbh probably would if it only happened once. Wouldnt have bothered with this thread if that was the case, but it evidently isn't. I also never said I am overly bothered by it, because I am not. I simply mentioned it in a thread as something that irritates me about living there.


----------



## mrypg9

Mushu7 said:


> Not every Spanish person is dark haired with olive skin y'know.
> 
> I'm suprised I got to the end of this thread - I don't understand what all the fuss is about. Some people are offensive, some people get offended. Shock horror!!
> 
> Would I be overly bothered or concerned with someone saying bad untruthful things about me if they didn't know me - nope - should you be bothered - nope.
> 
> We are ALL guilty of generalising or sterotyping people in some way, shape or form. Thats just a natural human behaviour. So it can hardly be suprising if a fellow human does the same thing.
> 
> ALSO ... stereotypes have half truths, which anyone with a sense of humour will just laugh and roll your eyes at:
> 
> Chinese with their cameras taking pictures of everything
> Drunk Brits abroad
> Fat Americans
> Indian families with a million kids
> Women drivers
> White van man
> Old ladies at the bingo
> Crazy Jews
> Brits with bad teeth
> Greasy Spanish waiters
> Jeremy Kyle chav guests
> 
> In the great scheme of life, it really is not a big deal.


What a sensible attitude.....
As I said in a previous post, there are more than enough real examples of racism, homophobia etc., instances where people get hurt or are treated badly at work...
If someone called me a fat old **** I couldn't give a toss as two of those descriptions are true and one (the first) is kind of true - I am trying to lose a few kilos. I'd prefer the word 'stocky'.
If some deranged religious fanatic took a pot shot at me or stoned me I might get a little upset.


----------



## mrypg9

Horlics said:


> Actually, I think the UK is a shining example to much of Europe these days. And you wouldn't have seen that coming 20 years ago!


That's certainly true of the FA 's attitude to racism in football. The PFL has also been very active in combatting racism and homophobia.

You are right in that the UK is indeed a shining example when it comes to stamping out discrimination of any kind.
Other countries may have anti-discrimination laws -Spain does - but the mechanisms for enforcing them are either almost non-existent or hard to access.
Whereas the UK Equality Act 2010 not only makes clear what is meant by discrimination but also contains clear guidance as to how to implement these laws.
We Brits often fail to give ourselves credit where credit's due.


----------



## Rabbitcat

This is actually true-

Some years ago when we were in Kenya I accidentally stepped in front of a German man who was in the middle of taking a photo of his family.

He shouted at me in perfect English- "typical ignorant English pig!!"

I automatically snapped back at him " I am not English!!!"- and was half way down the street before it dawned on me to challenge the other two parts of his insult!!! Doh!!!!


----------



## mrypg9

Rabbitcat said:


> This is actually true-
> 
> Some years ago when we were in Kenya I accidentally stepped in front of a German man who was in the middle of taking a photo of his family.
> 
> He shouted at me in perfect English- "typical ignorant English pig!!"
> 
> I automatically snapped back at him " I am not English!!!"- and was half way down the street before it dawned on me to challenge the other two parts of his insult!!! Doh!!!!


Many years ago, Sandra and I accidentally strayed into a very poor quarter of Tunis.
Some teenagers threw stones at us and, in French, called us 'Jewish whores'. (Putes juives).

When back in the UK we told a friend he said that's strange, you're not Jewish....


----------



## Pesky Wesky

emmamayb said:


> I think its just a case of the context. I have never personally heard it in a joking, friendly manner where im from its only ever been used in a negative manner, usually when they suspect I do not speak nor understand what they are saying and are unaware I know the language bilingually.





Chopera said:


> My wife (who is Spanish) is often called a "guiri" by her family when she speaks English. I'm pretty sure they are not being derogatory.


And as I said before. my husband and daughter, both Spanish, do on occasion call me guiri. I like to think there's more affectionate there than insult!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

xabiachica said:


> I'm amazed you've never heard guiri used affectionately though!!


Me too, especially being here from 11 years old and presumably having friends of different nationalities, iincluding Spanish.:confused2:


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Isobella said:


> Words don't hurt much. The main thing to worry about is being treated equally in the job market, health service, law courts etc.
> 
> I do agree that most Foreigners would not be aware if they were being insulted unless they pick up on body language. Except for people on this forum who are mostly fluent and have loads of Spanish friends they state that they haven't experienced racism (but if they have it's the Brits fault ha ha) no football hooliganism or drunkeness either.


Isobella, forgive if I'm wrong, but this smacks of sarcasm.
I have not experienced any overt racism.
I do speak fluent Spanish. (Should I apologise for this?) If I didn't after so many years here it would be positively criminal!
I have "suffered" from positive discrimination where I am favoured over other immigrants.I don't like it, and I certainly don't condone it, but it's what's happened to me, and I'm not going to tell it any other way.
I said in another post, one thing is saying that racism/ xenaphobia has not been experienced and another is saying that it doesn't exist in Spain.

I apologise if I read your post wrong

However, I totally agree with your first sentence and meant to make a post about it earlier. To those who say that the Spanish are very tolerant and accepting I would ask how many muslims do you see working in supermarkets, how many blacks are teaching in universities or schools even in Lavapíes in Madrid with a high immigrant population? What areas are Africans working in in your town?
I have worked in one office which employed a fair amount of South Americans (there were a few people from Venezuela, one from Ecuador, one from Peru and there was also a fully bilingual Romanian in the IT department) but the great majority are cleaners, bar workers or working as geriatric carers. Those who don't work in those areas have maybe put their money into opening their own businesses or are, well, working in other "trades"


----------



## Rabbitcat

I wanna know are they all right with us Irish?


----------



## emmamayb

Pesky Wesky said:


> Me too, especially being here from 11 years old and presumably having friends of different nationalities, iincluding Spanish.:confused2:


That is probably the fact I was in an international school and the Spanish kids I grew up with there knew not to generalize foreigners into one group and there was about 10 different nationalities in our classes.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Horlics said:


> Attendance at just one La Liga futbol match is enough to know that it does exist in Spain.


From post 21


> Acceptance might prevail when the immigrants bring in money (Ibiza, Majorca, Torremolinos, Benidorm, Torrevieja), but when it brings in people with different coloured skin, different customs in large numbers and not much money the native population are not so happy.
> And in football there have been problems with fans calling players monkeys. One even threw a banana at Alves. Isolated incidents or are these just the stories that we hear about of the many that could be reported? I think I'm right in saying that there are few places in Spain that have the concentrations of immigrants that places like Birminham, London and Bradford have/ had. I'd like to see how the Spanish handle that when it happens


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Rabbitcat said:


> I wanna know are they all right with us Irish?


Nationality has little to do with it whether you are Irish or from the Solomon Islands
If you can live your life without grating on others, you'll most likely be OK


----------



## Rabbitcat

I don't know about that. There's some right rogues on those pesky Solomon Islands


----------



## Pesky Wesky

emmamayb said:


> That is probably the fact I was in an international school and the Spanish kids I grew up with there knew not to generalize foreigners into one group and there was about 10 different nationalities in our classes.


Well, whatever. You've obviously had your guiri experience and I've had mine!

So you went to an international school? If I opened a thread about life in an international school would you have time to contribute? As you can imagine a lot of people emigrate to Spain with older children and usually end up putting them in international schools to avoid problems with the language, (others just prefer private schooling) but they don't know a lot about them. Some posters have sent their children to such schools, but none of them have actually attended as children themselves, so your view point would be interesting...


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Rabbitcat said:


> I don't know about that. There's some right rogues on those pesky Solomon Islands


The use of "pesky" has been noted!


----------



## Lynn R

Pesky Wesky said:


> To those who say that the Spanish are very tolerant and accepting I would ask how many muslims do you see working in supermarkets, how many blacks are teaching in universities or schools even in Lavapíes in Madrid with a high immigrant population? What areas are Africans working in in your town?
> I have worked in one office which employed a fair amount of South Americans (there were a few people from Venezuela, one from Ecuador, one from Peru and there was also a fully bilingual Romanian in the IT department) but the great majority are cleaners, bar workers or working as geriatric carers. Those who don't work in those areas have maybe put their money into opening their own businesses or are, well, working in other "trades"


We saw a black man working as a delivery driver last week in our town, and we both commented on it as you are right, it is very unusual. The receptionist/concierge (not a cleaner) at the apartments we stay in when we visit Madrid is a black African guy. There are a few South Americans working for building companies locally too, but not so many as there used to be a few years ago. I have also met a Venezuelan doctor working in the Spanish health service.


----------



## angil

emmamayb said:


> That is probably the fact I was in an international school and the Spanish kids I grew up with there knew not to generalize foreigners into one group and there was about 10 different nationalities in our classes.


We have been in Spain 2 years and my kids attend an International School here. They have been overseas all of their lives (at school with every nationality under the sun) and my daughter has just graduated.
So I yelled across to her "the guiri word, is it ever said in a bad way" & her reply "yes, always, its not a very nice word". It was the British kids who have lived here all of their lives (some have attended Spanish primary schools) & all speak fluent Spanish who told my kids that it is an awful word used as a put down. & my daughter has said she wouldn't want to be singled out and called one!
Atleast it in this area, apparantly.


----------



## Rabbitcat

Pesky Wesky-I hereby solemnly withdraw the use of the word " pesky"

In my defence there was a thread yesterday which mentioned " pesky ants!!"

Getting back to subject I prefer to believe that most people in most countries are tolerant. I have lived abroad now for around ten years and generally find my belief correct


----------



## emmamayb

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well, whatever. You've obviously had your guiri experience and I've had mine!
> 
> So you went to an international school? If I opened a thread about life in an international school would you have time to contribute? As you can imagine a lot of people emigrate to Spain with older children and usually end up putting them in international schools to avoid problems with the language, (others just prefer private schooling) but they don't know a lot about them. Some posters have sent their children to such schools, but none of them have actually attended as children themselves, so your view point would be interesting...


Yeah sure go ahead


----------



## Pesky Wesky

emmamayb said:


> Yeah sure go ahead


OK, let's do it!
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp.../842153-expeiences-international-schools.html


----------



## Alcalaina

Pesky Wesky said:


> From post 21
> 
> And in football there have been problems with fans calling players monkeys. One even threw a banana at Alves. Isolated incidents or are these just the stories that we hear about of the many that could be reported? I think I'm right in saying that there are few places in Spain that have the concentrations of immigrants that places like Birminham, London and Bradford have/ had. I'd like to see how the Spanish handle that when it happens.


Dani Alves laughed about the banana incident and said the racists were fighting a losing battle. His fellow Brazilian Neymar responded by posting this picture of himself and his little boy eating bananas. At another match the whole team went on the pitch eating bananas. Quite an effective response really, diffusing the steam and making the racists look silly.

There's far more abuse directed at the Catalans than at immigrants. I do hear plenty of anti-Barça comments, but I don't call it racism. It's political. (I'm excused for being a Barcelona fan because I'm foreign and don't know any better.)


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Alcalaina said:


> Dani Alves laughed about the banana incident and said the racists were fighting a losing battle. His fellow Brazilian Neymar responded by posting this picture of himself and his little boy eating bananas. At another match the whole team went on the pitch eating bananas. Quite an effective response really, diffusing the steam and making the racists look silly.
> 
> There's far more abuse directed at the Catalans than at immigrants. I do hear plenty of anti-Barça comments, but I don't call it racism. It's political. (I'm excused for being a Barcelona fan because I'm foreign and don't know any better.)


Dani Alves did not laugh about it at the time Alcalaina, but yes, the response later was well meditated

Political?
Footical, perhaps


----------



## Justina

*Fat*



mrypg9 said:


> What a sensible attitude.....
> As I said in a previous post, there are more than enough real examples of racism, homophobia etc., instances where people get hurt or are treated badly at work...
> If someone called me a fat old **** I couldn't give a toss as two of those descriptions are true and one (the first) is kind of true - I am trying to lose a few kilos. I'd prefer the word 'stocky'.
> If some deranged religious fanatic took a pot shot at me or stoned me I might get a little upset.


Instead of fat or stocky how about plump and una gordita. Much more gentle.


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## Alcalaina

Pesky Wesky said:


> Dani Alves did not laugh about it at the time Alcalaina, but yes, the response later was well meditated
> 
> Political?
> Footical, perhaps


He picked up the banana that was thrown at him and ate it. I'm sure he didn't find it at all funny, but it was the right thing to do.

BBC Sport - Dani Alves: Barcelona defender eats banana after it lands on pitch


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## Isla Verde

Justina said:


> Instead of fat or stocky how about plump and una gordita. Much more gentle.


At least in Mexico, being called a "gordita" can be a compliment, as many men here prefer their women with some flesh on their bones!


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## Rabbitcat

Alcalaina said:


> He picked up the banana that was thrown at him and ate it. I'm sure he didn't find it at all funny, but it was the right thing to do.
> 
> BBC Sport - Dani Alves: Barcelona defender eats banana after it lands on pitch



Whilst I find this banana incident totally abhorrent may I just point out before I arrive in Espana that if you wish to racially insult us Irish we hate having large denomination banknotes thrown at us.........


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## mrypg9

Justina said:


> Instead of fat or stocky how about plump and una gordita. Much more gentle.


A nice thought...but I'm not really 'plump'. I can get into 42 jeans, tight fit, more comfortable in 44 with a little room to spare.
But as I'm short, excess weight shows more, it's concentrated in a smaller space


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## Rabbitcat

You are not overweight at all. You are just underheight

I am the EXACT weight for my height- if I were 8 foot 7


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## Justina

*La gordita*



mrypg9 said:


> A nice thought...but I'm not really 'plump'. I can get into 42 jeans, tight fit, more comfortable in 44 with a little room to spare.
> But as I'm short, excess weight shows more, it's concentrated in a smaller space


I don't look at sizes anymore cos depending which shop I am in it can be medium, large and even extra large, but then I wouldn't buy the extra large cos that does offend.


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## Justina

*Guiri*



Pesky Wesky said:


> And as I said before. my husband and daughter, both Spanish, do on occasion call me guiri. I like to think there's more affectionate there than insult!


I realise this thread has exhausted itself, but did any of you pick up on the article in el pais today where there is an article titled el año sabatico del guiri feliz? It is on Chris Stewart and his life in the Alpujarras. It was written with warmth and affection:


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## Pesky Wesky

Justina said:


> I realise this thread has exhausted itself, but did any of you pick up on the article in el pais today where there is an article titled el año sabatico del guiri feliz? It is on Chris Stewart and his life in the Alpujarras. It was written with warmth and affection:


No, I didn't, but I'll look it up.
Thanks!


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## Alcalaina

Justina said:


> I realise this thread has exhausted itself, but did any of you pick up on the article in el pais today where there is an article titled el año sabatico del guiri feliz? It is on Chris Stewart and his life in the Alpujarras. It was written with warmth and affection:


Chris Stewart: El año sabático del guiri feliz | Cultura | EL PAÃ�S

Nice videos too, it's good to see the finca I've read so much about!


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## mrypg9

Racists are usually homophobes - bigotry knows no frontiers. I've just had a call from a very upset guy from a small pueblo blanco, he got my number from the ArcoIris site, his sister had just arrived very upset and indignant, she had been abused and insulted as a lesbian in a café in the town.
I passed him the number of our ArcoIris guy who deals with that kind of thing but am left with the feeling that nothing much will come of any complaint. Yes, there are laws but enforcing them is another matter.
No-one gets away with that kind of thing in the UK. There is quite a lot of homophobia away from the bigger towns and cities, from what I've heard from Spanish gays and lesbians. A bar in Estepona started 'gay discos' but the venture didn't take off, because, I was told, people were wary of being seen there and being publicly identified as gay or lesbian.


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## Rabbitcat

Whilst all "isms" are abhorrent I find racism a particularly dumbass lazy one!!

Why in gods name would you hate someone because of their nationality or skin colour!

! Why not make it hair colour, left/ right handed or whether they have a dislike for polo mints. It's just so dumb beyond comprehension


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## baldilocks

Rabbitcat said:


> Whilst all "isms" are abhorrent I find racism a particularly dumbass lazy one!!
> 
> Why in gods name would you hate someone because of their nationality or skin colour!
> 
> ! Why not make it hair colour, left/ right handed or whether they have a dislike for polo mints. It's just so dumb beyond comprehension


I could never see anything in polo mints!


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## mrypg9

Rabbitcat said:


> Whilst all "isms" are abhorrent I find racism a particularly dumbass lazy one!!
> 
> Why in gods name would you hate someone because of their nationality or skin colour!
> 
> ! Why not make it hair colour, left/ right handed or whether they have a dislike for polo mints. It's just so dumb beyond comprehension


Why is racism more abhorrent or stupid than sexism or homophobia or any other unfounded, irrational prejudice?
These bigots rarely keep their horrible views to themselves and the recipients of their verbal and often physical violence are equally hurt and distressed, whether black, female, gay or whatever.


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## Rabbitcat

mrypg9 said:


> Why is racism more abhorrent or stupid than sexism or homophobia or any other unfounded, irrational prejudice?
> These bigots rarely keep their horrible views to themselves and the recipients of their verbal and often physical violence are equally hurt and distressed, whether black, female, gay or whatever.


Read my post again , slowly. Nowhere have I said any such thing. I have been involved with anti racist/ sectarian groups for decades. Ease up a bit, read it again and chillax


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## mrypg9

Rabbitcat said:


> Read my post again , slowly. Nowhere have I said any such thing. I have been involved with anti racist/ sectarian groups for decades. Ease up a bit, read it again and chillax


I did. Perhaps you should. You wrote:

_Whilst all "isms" are abhorrent I find racism a particularly dumbass lazy one!!

Why in gods name would you hate someone because of their nationality or skin colour!_

Why focus on racism as more 'dumbass' than the other prejudices? Aren't they *equally* 'dumbass'?

There is no hierarchy of hate.


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## Rabbitcat

I should have said " ALL "isms" are abhorrent"......oh wait, I did!!!!!


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## baldilocks

I think that the targets of racism are more easily identifiable especially if colour and other racial characteristics are also involved but identifying some other potential targets of bigotry is often more difficult. Therefore racism may be more common.


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## Rabbitcat

Be careful Baldilocks as resident nitpicker could brand you as not opposed to other " isms" for stating that opinion.

Give me strength, some people have little to argue about.

Anyway Baldi I have you down as a "poloist" after your earlier anti mint comment


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## mrypg9

Rabbitcat said:


> I should have said " ALL "isms" are abhorrent"......oh wait, I did!!!!!


Yes, you did...but then you used the word 'particularly' with reference to racism which I take it as meaning that you find it more abhorrent than sexism etc. Actually, I find it easier to understand racism than sexism or homophobia. 
Racism usually rears its ugly head when there is a significant number of people of different races in an area. More often than not it's not really racism it's fear and uncertainty in the face of change. True racism implies a deep-seated belief that some races are genetically inferior to others.
A belief that homosexuality is 'sinful' isn't necessarily homophobia either.
As you're involved with anti-discrimination groups you'll know that the Equality Act 2010 presents six 'protected characteristics, all given equal weighting: race, gender, sexual orientation, disability, age, ethnicity/religion.
Not sure if the Act applies to Northern Ireland though.
Something like that would be very helpful here in Spain, along with effective enforcement mechanisms.


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## Rabbitcat

When you have grown up through a situation where hatred esp sectarian hatred means murder and mutilation you do get a sense of the various isms

I disagree re the racists having any deeper " thinking" than other bigots as many just hate literally because of skin colour etc.

Generally bigots are multi haters. In this neck if the woods sectarianism attracts racist tyoes too and generally hate filled *******s have all the same iq deficiencies

But alas you shouldn't assume a comment against a particular hate trend in any way legitimises other hatreds. That assumption just doesn't make sense


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## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> I think that the targets of racism are more easily identifiable especially if colour and other racial characteristics are also involved but identifying some other potential targets of bigotry is often more difficult. Therefore racism may be more common.


Yes, I'd agree...more common but not 'particularly abhorrent'.
But I'm guessing there are more victims of physical gender violence, certainly in Spain, and that is the ultimate expression of sexism.
Most of our casework involving alleged racism were more cases of discrimination than verbal or physical harassment.

And what rabbitcat describes as 'nitpicking' is actually of prime importance when involved in dealing with anti-discrimination casework.


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## baldilocks

Rabbitcat said:


> Be careful Baldilocks as resident nitpicker could brand you as not opposed to other " isms" for stating that opinion.
> 
> Give me strength, some people have little to argue about.
> 
> Anyway Baldi I have you down as a "poloist" after your earlier anti mint comment


Who said I was anti-mint? Now it is YOU who is not reading posts properly!


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## mrypg9

Rabbitcat said:


> When you have grown up through a situation where hatred esp sectarian hatred means murder and mutilation you do get a sense of the various isms
> 
> I disagree re the racists having any deeper " thinking" than other bigots as many just hate literally because of skin colour etc.
> 
> Generally bigots are multi haters. In this neck if the woods sectarianism attracts racist tyoes too and generally hate filled *******s have all the same iq deficiencies
> 
> But alas you shouldn't assume a comment against a particular hate trend in any way legitimises other hatreds. That assumption just doesn't make sense


Of course I don't assume that. I didn't say racists were 'deeper thinkers', I'd support your use of the term 'dumbass' for those people. I was stating that what is labelled as 'racism' isn't always 'true' racism, because the term has a precise meaning.
Sectarianism I know of only vaguely as my OH is Glaswegian and it's a Scottish as well as Ulster phenomenum. I was quite shocked on my first visit to see 'FTP' scrawled everywhere - on my last visit I did see one 'FTQ'.
But again, are the roots of sectarianism religious or social?
You didn't say if the Equality Act applies to Northern Ireland?


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## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> I could never see anything in polo mints!


I thought Polo Mints had disappeared along with Smarties, Fry's Five Boys and Caramac....


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## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> I thought Polo Mints had disappeared along with Smarties, Fry's Five Boys and Caramac....


Don't say I've got to explain my comment to you as well! Are people having a blond/e afternoon? Ooopps perhaps I shouldn't say that on the grounds that it could be considered discriminatory.


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## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> Don't say I've got to explain my comment to you as well! Are people having a blond/e afternoon? Ooopps perhaps I shouldn't say that on the grounds that it could be considered discriminatory.


I was just asking an innocent question...I used to like Polos.


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## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> I was just asking an innocent question...I used to like Polos.


Q. Describe a polo mint.

A. It is a ring of peppermint flavoured hard material with a *hole* in the middle! 

My comment was "I could never see anything in Polo Mints!"

Penny droppeth, yet?


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## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> Q. Describe a polo mint.
> 
> A. It is a ring of peppermint flavoured hard material with a *hole* in the middle!
> 
> My comment was "I could never see anything in Polo Mints!"
> 
> Penny droppeth, yet?


It doth... but I ask again: can you still get Polo Mints in the UK, do you know?


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## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> It doth... but I ask again: can you still get Polo Mints in the UK, do you know?


I've just looked at Sainsburys online and the answer is "Yes." There is also a sugar-free versions but whether they are still classed as "sweets"...

Current price is 60p


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## Rabbitcat

mrypg9 said:


> Of course I don't assume that. I didn't say racists were 'deeper thinkers', I'd support your use of the term 'dumbass' for those people. I was stating that what is labelled as 'racism' isn't always 'true' racism, because the term has a precise meaning.
> Sectarianism I know of only vaguely as my OH is Glaswegian and it's a Scottish as well as Ulster phenomenum. I was quite shocked on my first visit to see 'FTP' scrawled everywhere - on my last visit I did see one 'FTQ'.
> But again, are the roots of sectarianism religious or social?
> You didn't say if the Equality Act applies to Northern Ireland?



You really don't wanna know how backward hate filled and homophobic this backwater is. And I am talking about some of those in power- seriously

We have a ban on gay people being allowed to give blood as per our health minister.


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## Justina

*Ban*



Rabbitcat said:


> You really don't wanna know how backward hate filled and homophobic this backwater is. And I am talking about some of those in power- seriously
> 
> We have a ban on gay people being allowed to give blood as per our health minister.


There was a ban in many countries.


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## Rabbitcat

Not always by nutty christian zealots!!!


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## mrypg9

Rabbitcat said:


> You really don't wanna know how backward hate filled and homophobic this backwater is. And I am talking about some of those in power- seriously
> 
> We have a ban on gay people being allowed to give blood as per our health minister.


Iris Robinson springs to mind....

The blood donor thing is complex. I was on a Committee that discussed this with the NHS blood donor service people. The ban in England doesn't use the term 'gay men;. It uses the term 'men that have sex with men'; as many men who do that don't identify as gay. The ban isn't just for such men, though, it extends to women in certain categories and anyone who has travelled to certain countries.
As one gay member of the Committee said, no-one has a right to give blood but every recipient has a right to safe blood.
Our Committee , a TUC Equality Committee, voted to support the ban.


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## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> Why is racism more abhorrent or stupid than sexism or homophobia or any other unfounded, irrational prejudice?
> These bigots rarely keep their horrible views to themselves and the recipients of their verbal and often physical violence are equally hurt and distressed, whether black, female, gay or whatever.


Have you heard Stephen Fry on the subject?
The first 30 seconds (Literally) of Stephen Fry putting things into perspective in this video is well worth listening to IMHO. Then again. when is he not worth listening to?


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## Pesky Wesky

It appears a post has been removed from this thread. Why isn't there a little dustbin next to the thread title on the index page? Why doesn't this happen any more (I noticed this a while back actually)? It's much easier to find your way around a thread if you know a post, and your comments referring to it, have been removed. A reason for taking it down also used to be given


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## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> It appears a post has been removed from this thread. Why isn't there a little dustbin next to the thread title on the index page? Why doesn't this happen any more (I noticed this a while back actually)? It's much easier to find your way around a thread if you know a post, and your comments referring to it, have been removed. A reason for taking it down also used to be given


can you not see when posts have been removed? 

we always leave a reason for removal 

if not then I'll look into it


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## Pesky Wesky

xabiachica said:


> can you not see when posts have been removed?
> 
> we always leave a reason for removal
> 
> if not then I'll look into it


I have just discovered I can see the little dustbin when I'm not logged in. Now I'm logged in I can't see it!
I can't see a reason though.
It's probably smth to do with Ubunbtu.
I'm going out now though, so never mind.


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## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> I have just discovered I can see the little dustbin when I'm not logged in. Now I'm logged in I can't see it!
> I can't see a reason though.
> It's probably smth to do with Ubunbtu.
> I'm going out now though, so never mind.


I just looked at usergroup permissions & they had been set to not show deletion notices - so that was why

I've changed it back to how it used to be, so you should see them now


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## Isobella

At one time British people were not permitted to donate blood in Spain because of mad cow disease. Don't know if this still applies.


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## Pesky Wesky

xabiachica said:


> I just looked at usergroup permissions & they had been set to not show deletion notices - so that was why
> 
> I've changed it back to how it used to be, so you should see them now


Yes, I can


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## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> As you're involved with anti-discrimination groups you'll know that the Equality Act 2010 presents six 'protected characteristics, all given equal weighting: race, gender, sexual orientation, disability, age, ethnicity/religion.
> Not sure if the Act applies to Northern Ireland though.
> Something like that would be very helpful here in Spain, along with effective enforcement mechanisms.


I agree, it needs doing. There are various piecemeal bits of legislation nationally and regionally, which cover all these things but they need pulling together. Spain's first minister of equal rights, Bibiana Aido (a fellow alcalaina) was working on this during the last PSOE government but unfortunately the PP haven't taken it further. They won't upset their Catholic fundamentalist backers.

Not sure whether it should incorporate the Equal Rights for Pets law recently passed by a little town in Valladolid ...


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## Alcalaina

Isobella said:


> At one time British people were not permitted to donate blood in Spain because of mad cow disease. Don't know if this still applies.


It still applies, you can't be a blood donor if you were living in the UK during the 1980s in case you are a carrier of the prions that cause Creutzfeld Jacob disease, which are the same as the ones that cause BSE (aka mad cow disease).


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## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> I agree, it needs doing. There are various piecemeal bits of legislation nationally and regionally, which cover all these things but they need pulling together. Spain's first minister of equal rights, Bibiana Aido (a fellow alcalaina) was working on this during the last PSOE government but unfortunately the PP haven't taken it further. They won't upset their Catholic fundamentalist backers.
> 
> Not sure whether it should incorporate the Equal Rights for Pets law recently passed by a little town in Valladolid ...


No, I'm not sure about that. The current animal cruelty and protection law needs to be strengthened and made more precise.
The real problem seems to me to be one of lack of mechanisms for enforcement and redress where discrimination or harassment is claimed.
ArcoIris is taking the initiative and approaching the new PSOE administrations in Malaga Province with the aim of persuading them to draw up LGBT 'charters' to make thetowns more diversity friendly. More and more towns are holding Pride events, some with Municipal support. I think there was one in Mijas with the Alcalde at the front of the parade.
As for the woman subjected to homophobic abuse yesterday...I shall be interested to know how her complaint is dealt with.


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## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> No, I'm not sure about that. The current animal cruelty and protection law needs to be strengthened and made more precise.
> The real problem seems to me to be one of lack of mechanisms for enforcement and redress where discrimination or harassment is claimed.
> ArcoIris is taking the initiative and approaching the new PSOE administrations in Malaga Province with the aim of persuading them to draw up LGBT 'charters' to make thetowns more diversity friendly. More and more towns are holding Pride events, some with Municipal support. I think there was one in Mijas with the Alcalde at the front of the parade.
> As for the woman subjected to homophobic abuse yesterday...I shall be interested to know how her complaint is dealt with.


If there is harassment surely the mechanism would be to raise a denuncia against the offending institution or individual? The ultimate law is the European Human Rights legislation, which must feed down into Spanish law.

We've got a brand new social services building just about to open, where anyone can go and get help and advice on such things. It's wheelchair and pushchair friendly, unlike the town hall. There is even a hidden entrance which women who are being abused by their partners can use, so as not to be seen from the street! Not bad for a little pueblo of 5,000 people.


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## xabiaxica

Alcalaina said:


> It still applies, you can't be a blood donor if you were living in the UK during the 1980s in case you are a carrier of the prions that cause Creutzfeld Jacob disease, which are the same as the ones that cause BSE (aka mad cow disease).


yes, anyone who lived for a period of 1 year in the UK between 1980 & 1996 can't donate - nor can anyone who has had a transfusion there 


my daughter, born in the UK Feb 1996, was accepted as a donor


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## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> If there is harassment surely the mechanism would be to raise a denuncia against the offending institution or individual? The ultimate law is the European Human Rights legislation, which must feed down into Spanish law.
> 
> We've got a brand new social services building just about to open, where anyone can go and get help and advice on such things. It's wheelchair and pushchair friendly, unlike the town hall. There is even a hidden entrance which women who are being abused by their partners can use, so as not to be seen from the street! Not bad for a little pueblo of 5,000 people.


Yes, she can raise a denuncia. But it's a long step from a denuncia to EHR legislation and requires legal advice and representation for a process that can take years.
What will happen when she goes to make the denuncia? The police will listen, then call in the abuser who will tell her side and that will be the end of it.


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## mrypg9

ArcoIris has been delivering a series of training sessions to local police forces in Malaga Province. I went to a couple, they werei informative and I thought well received by a very macho group of people...the sessions I attended were all male.
So hopefully complaints of harassment will be taken more seriously.


----------

