# Where do I start? US > Europe



## Biochemlab

Hi Everyone, 

Thank you in advance for reading my post and any valuable comments or links you might have. I'm really excited to be exploring an adventure, but I need your help. Here's my story. 

I've lived all over the US because my dad was in the military, and I've been to Europe for travel once (Netherlands and France) and Mexico once. I'm 38 years old and just sold my first business. It's not "never work again" money, but it's definitely adventure money. 

What'd I'd like to do is order a new Porsche and do European Delivery. For those not familiar with Porsche, they allow you to pick up your new car in Germany from the factory, drive it around Europe for a while, then ship it to the US for you. The program is currently on hold, but will re-open in Spring of 2018. 

So, assuming this dream trip comes together, I'd like to pick up my Porsche and live in Germany and maybe a couple of other countries in Europe (Italy, Spain, France, Netherlands, I don't know...). I'm thinking a total of 3 - 6 months is how long I'd like to spend there, but I have no idea where to start. 

I currently have a US passport, but do I need a Visa or some other documentation? What are the rules here? Could I say in each country for less than a month on just a passport? I'm really ignorant on how VISAs work. I've only ever gone on 2 week vacations. How different are the rules from one country to another? 

Getting plane flights is pretty easy. I don't have any questions there. Ground transportation should be taken care of in most instances. 

My next big question is about lodging. I don't even know where to start. I don't really want to pay hotel prices for months in a row. That's not in this budget at all. So, I need to figure out other options. What are the other options? I'd like to have my own space whether renting an AirBNB, staying in a hostel, cheap long term hotels/efficiency, whatever... and I need to be able to safely park the new Porsche. What suggestions do you have here? Where should I look? 

The lodging question is a little hard because I want to stay in different areas. I plan to drive a lot. I want to see all the amazing roads and eat amazing food along the way. So, I'll need to plot out the trip and all the things I want to see and roads I need to drive. I'm hoping some basic tips here and / or a couple of websites to view will get me in the right direction here. 

Also related to lodging, I'd probably rarely need to prepare a meal in my room. I like going to local pubs to meet people and enjoy local food / culture. And I don't mind eating simple snacks like nuts, vegetables, cured meats, and cheeses that I could pick up at any market and prepare with just a knife. 

What else do I need to know that I didn't ask about? 
What do I need to look out for or avoid doing? 

Thank you so much for putting up with such newb questions. If all of this was answered elsewhere, please just link me there and I'll get to reading. And thank you for anything you can contribute in reply. 

Cheers!


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## Bevdeforges

The key thing is that you will need a visa of some sort if you plan to remain in the Schengen area for more than a total of 90 days out of any 180 day period. And to get a visa for a stay of longer than 90 days, you normally need to have a "base" in one country within the Schengen area. As a resident of Schengen, you can visit other Schengen countries for up to 90 days in a rolling 180 day period. But you may also have to meet your "base" country's requirements for establishing "residence" for the period of your visa.

If you limit your travels to 90 days, you can pretty much travel around however you like without having to establish residence. (It's a bit like the US "visa waiver program" though the stamp in your passport that allows you to stay for 90 days is considered a "Schengen visa" in its own right.)
Cheers,
Bev


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## Biochemlab

Hi Bev, 
Thank you, this was helpful. If I may ask for some clarity, is the 90 day limit per country or over the schengen region? As in, can I stay in one country for 89 days and another country for 89 days without a VISA?


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## Nononymous

Biochemlab said:


> Hi Bev,
> Thank you, this was helpful. If I may ask for some clarity, is the 90 day limit per country or over the schengen region? As in, can I stay in one country for 89 days and another country for 89 days without a VISA?


It's 90 days for the entire Schengen area. You would have to leave Schengen if you wanted to stay beyond 3 months. Which is problematic because you'd be driving on the wrong side of the road if you went to the UK or Ireland, and I'm not sure you'd want to be parking a brand-new Porsche in Romania or Bulgaria.

On that note you would need to look at possible country restrictions on the auto insurance provided with the car under the European delivery program. If it's anything like rental cars, there might be some no-go areas due to theft and accident risk.


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## Biochemlab

Thanks for bringing up car insurance. Good question to get answered before I make too many plans!


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## Bevdeforges

As Nononymous says, if you're based in a country (let's say Germany), your Schengen visits are limited to 90 days total in any rolling 180 day period. Control over this is spotty, at best, however you may very well need to show "residence documents" in connection with various sorts of administrative functions - including such things as car insurance or licensing issues, renting a place to stay for a longer term, etc. 

One other consideration is that many European countries will require you to have private health insurance in order to get a long-stay visa (long-stay = anything over the 90 day tourist allowance) and may require you to have documentation of where you will be staying during the visa period.
Cheers,
Bev


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## Nononymous

I once looked into the European delivery option for a German vehicle, and they had special insurance and registration packages good for up to 12 months. Porsche would have the details, especially country restrictions. 

I find the three-month Schengen limit pretty irritating. A tourist with a bit of a budget, particularly someone capable of cheap travel, could easily use more time to explore Europe. The UK and US give you six months. (And I expect many kids backpacking around overstay without any great difficulty, especially if they're never in one country for too long.)

For the OP, what I'd recommend is either keeping it to 90 days, or finding a base and applying for permission to stay longer. In the specific case of Germany, you could apply at the consulate for a visa, or take advantage of US citizenship to show up, find and register an address, then troop down to the Ausländerbehörde and request a residence permit. Hard to make plans without knowing if you'll be allowed to stay, but if you demonstrate savings and a return ticket - the export paperwork for the car would be useful here - and have adequate health insurance (for six months, good travel coverage would suffice) then it's probably okay. 

Probably the sanest thing for what you want to do is renting an inexpensive apartment somewhere nice with good access to the Autobahn, from which you can set off on as many adventures as your budget allows.

And presumably you could set up your base somewhere else, like France or Belgium or Spain, after collecting your car. Similar process but I have no idea how the bureaucracy works in those countries.


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## Biochemlab

It seems that I'm probably best off limiting my trip to 3 months. There are also some rules about how long you keep a car in europe before you have to pay VAT on it. 

Are there good resources for apartment searches?


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## Nononymous

Biochemlab said:


> It seems that I'm probably best off limiting my trip to 3 months. There are also some rules about how long you keep a car in europe before you have to pay VAT on it.
> 
> Are there good resources for apartment searches?


The European delivery program will have those conditions laid out in their documentation. I don't think the VAT rule would ever apply because the car *must* be exported. They are built to North American safety standards, literally cannot be legally sold in Europe; this is a special program for well-heeled visitors to enjoy a temporary spin on the Autobahn before the car is shipped to it's final destination. I recall seeing that you could stay up to a year when I was doing research. 

For apartments, I'd say the best option in your case is going through an agency like Home Company to rent something furnished. You'll pay a hefty commission but given that you're coming over as a tourist with no credit or references, and presumably no language skills, you're not going to get very far dealing directly with landlords.

An option might be to plan for three months but give yourself the flexibility to stay longer if the money lasts and you successfully obtain a residence permit. Change the flight, extend the lease and the car and health insurance and you're good to go.


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## Biochemlab

Nononymous said:


> The European delivery program will have those conditions laid out in their documentation. I don't think the VAT rule would ever apply because the car *must* be exported. They are built to North American safety standards, literally cannot be legally sold in Europe; this is a special program for well-heeled visitors to enjoy a temporary spin on the Autobahn before the car is shipped to it's final destination. I recall seeing that you could stay up to a year when I was doing research.


The trigger for the VAT is if you keep the car for 6 months or 6,000kms (~3,600 miles). At this point the EU considers it a used car and therefore you purchased it in the EU and owe VAT. This is my understanding and I could be wrong. This just what Porsche people told me and it jives with the language here: (URL in next post due to post limit)

6 months would be plenty of time... but, I'm not sure I can be a tourist wanting to drive all over with only 600 miles a month... so, maybe 3 months with 1,200 miles a month will work. I'll have to plan carefully. 

Also, the Porsche Euro Delivery program is currently turned off / unavailable, but Mercedes and BMW are still doing it. There is no publicly known reason why. Speculators are saying it has to do with European vs US safety standards. Again, all speculation...



Nononymous said:


> For apartments, I'd say the best option in your case is going through an agency like Home Company to rent something furnished. You'll pay a hefty commission but given that you're coming over as a tourist with no credit or references, and presumably no language skills, you're not going to get very far dealing directly with landlords.
> 
> An option might be to plan for three months but give yourself the flexibility to stay longer if the money lasts and you successfully obtain a residence permit. Change the flight, extend the lease and the car and health insurance and you're good to go.


I'll check out Home Company. Thank you! I don't mind a commission to people who help me... but, we'll see what hefty means!  

I agree with your plan on being able to extend my time there. The car miles will get me... maybe I can send my car home and rent a different car or kick it in a city where I can walk. 

Thanks again, everyone. I appreciate any other tips you may have. I think it's pretty obvious I don't know what I'm doing here. So, feel free to drop some 101 on me.


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## Biochemlab

VAT – Value Added Tax - Your Europe


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## Bevdeforges

Not sure how they do it in Germany, but here in France the "temporary" license plates are very distinctive - and include the dates for which they are valid engraved on the plates as part of the "design." Basically the expiry date is the date by which you have to have exported the car.

If you limit yourself to the 90 days of a tourist/Schengen visa, you won't have to worry about finding a "residence" and can wander as you like throughout the Schengen area. Definitely enough range to keep you amused for a 90 day stretch and you can stay in hotels or wherever you like along your travels. 
Cheers,
Bev


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## Nononymous

The Euro delivery car programs will have the final say on the duration. I don't see how they can charge VAT because you literally *must* export the car, it's not legal for sale within Europe due to safety specs etc.

A hefty commission from Home Company would be up to one month's rent. So not too bad if it got you a cheapish base. Or use AirBnB and see if you can negotiate a longer term rental - that might work outside of peak tourist season.


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## Nononymous

I was curious so I had a look at BMW. The first 14 days is free, but you can extend the insurance up to 5 months. Mercedes didn't have as much info online but I expect you could ask; Volvo still does it too, if you'd prefer Swedish to German.

https://www.bmwusa.com/european-delivery.html


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## *Sunshine*

Nononymous said:


> In the specific case of Germany, you could apply at the consulate for a visa, or take advantage of US citizenship to show up, find and register an address, then troop down to the Ausländerbehörde and request a residence permit. Hard to make plans without knowing if you'll be allowed to stay, but if you demonstrate savings and a return ticket - the export paperwork for the car would be useful here - and have adequate health insurance (for six months, good travel coverage would suffice) then it's probably okay.


I can't speak fo other countries, however, it is no longer so easy to receive a residence permit in Germany "just to hang out".


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## *Sunshine*

Biochemlab said:


> I agree with your plan on being able to extend my time there. The car miles will get me... maybe I can send my car home and rent a different car or kick it in a city where I can walk.


Why don't you drive your car for 89 days in Schengen, ship it home, and then go to the UK for up to 6 months? Then you don't have to worry about permits and you can drive on the wrong side of the road with a rental car built for it.

Another issue you should look at before applying for a residence permit is whether a residence permit in the EU will trigger VAT.


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## Nononymous

*Sunshine* said:


> Another issue you should look at before applying for a residence permit is whether a residence permit in the EU will trigger VAT.


I would check this, of course, but I think a European delivery program car quite literally cannot be subject to VAT because it *must* be exported due to safety regulations - it's built to North American spec and cannot be registered normally, or sold. If you couldn't keep it past 90 days without VAT then they wouldn't offer 5-month insurance. 

When I looked a few years ago at Mercedes and Volvo you could insure and drive the car up to 12 months before shipping it home. Which now that I think of it is sort of interesting because after 6 months you are supposed to convert your foreign license to German. I think that's fairly easy now but when I first tried almost 20 years ago it was a huge pain in the ass and I gave up.


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## Bevdeforges

I'm sure that the manufacturer supported European delivery programs are pretty carefully controlled (and time limited). But I was very surprised a few years back to drive by one of the local dealerships here and find at least 3 or 4 used vehicles lined up for sale with those temporary license plates - the ones that give the dates that the registration is valid. Never found out what the story was with those, but I wouldn't have thought they could be re-sold like that (though I bet the new buyer WILL wind up paying VAT on the purchase price). 
Cheers,
Bev


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## Nononymous

Whatever those cars were, they likely were not built to North American spec, for export. They'd need to go through an expensive and complicated homologation process to become road legal.


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## Biochemlab

Nononymous said:


> I would check this, of course, but I think a European delivery program car quite literally cannot be subject to VAT because it *must* be exported due to safety regulations - it's built to North American spec and cannot be registered normally, or sold. If you couldn't keep it past 90 days without VAT then they wouldn't offer 5-month insurance.
> 
> When I looked a few years ago at Mercedes and Volvo you could insure and drive the car up to 12 months before shipping it home. Which now that I think of it is sort of interesting because after 6 months you are supposed to convert your foreign license to German. I think that's fairly easy now but when I first tried almost 20 years ago it was a huge pain in the ass and I gave up.


As I understand it (and could very well be wrong) the VAT kicks in at 6 months or 6,000km. So, 5 months would fit. I was just talking about a 3 month trip because I think I would burn through the 6,000km in 3 months instead of 6. 

The 5 month insurance would fit inside the 6 month rule, if I'm understanding correctly. 

HOWEVER, I did just find this link which clearly indicates that it's 6 months AND 6,000km... not OR. So, maybe I can stay 6 months... 

___________________________________________________________

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/individuals/car-taxation/buying-selling-cars_en

When is a car ‘new’?
A car is new for VAT purposes if:

It has been in use for no more than 6 months or
It has been driven for no more than 6000 kilometers
when you buy it.

Example 1: A car that is two years old but has travelled only 4000 kilometers is new for VAT purposes.
Example 2: A four-month old car has been driven for 15 000 kilometers. It is new for VAT purposes.
Example 3: A ten-month old car that has been driven for 6500 kilometers is not new.
Legal base: Article 2 of VAT Directive
____________________________________________________________




*Sunshine* said:


> Why don't you drive your car for 89 days in Schengen, ship it home, and then go to the UK for up to 6 months? Then you don't have to worry about permits and you can drive on the wrong side of the road with a rental car built for it.
> 
> Another issue you should look at before applying for a residence permit is whether a residence permit in the EU will trigger VAT.


I have similar plans, but stateside. After I return from my stay in Europe, I plan to spend a few months driving around the US seeing things and visiting old friends. 

I imagine renting a car for 6 months is nearly as expensive as buying a porsche, LOL!


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## Nononymous

For the last time, VAT is not an issue. You are buying an export vehicle that comes with special permission to do a few laps of the Autobahn before it goes on the boat. VAT does not apply. (Instead, you will be paying any local US taxes and fees because you are buying it through a US dealer.)

Also, the rule you quoted is the definition of a new vs. used vehicle for VAT purposes, and has nothing to do with how long you stay in Europe or how much driving you do. Your vehicle would be brand new and (presumably) subject to VAT if it were a normal sale to a local resident, which it is not; since you cannot sell it yourself prior to departure, the rest of the VAT rules are not relevant.

Please, no further discussion of VAT!



Biochemlab said:


> I imagine renting a car for 6 months is nearly as expensive as buying a porsche, LOL!


Actually there are lease deals that can be quite reasonable. I know nothing of this except that a family friend on sabbatical in France a decade ago had a new or near-new car for a year and was pleasantly surprised by how little he spent. It wasn't a Porsche, mind you, but wasn't the cheapest thing on the lot either.


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