# Mexico Security Update



## RPBHaas

I have read various conversations from a few recent threads regarding the security situation here in Mexico. The following is this past week's update of specific security/crime events:

June 5
•Soldiers arrested two minors in Zihuatanejo, Guerrero state, for distributing the autobiography of former La Familia Michoacana leader Nazario Moreno. Approximately 500 copies of the book were seized.
•Unidentified gunmen shot and killed a ministerial police officer in Poblado Cinco, Sinaloa state.

June 6
•In two operations, Federal Police detained seven members of Los Zetas in Linares, Nuevo Leon state. Those arrested included the Zeta plaza boss of Linares, Miguel Angel Martinez Fernandez, aka "La Manzana." Police also seized a truck, a tactical vest, ten balaclavas, communications equipment, 22 grenade launchers and a torture table.
•Police discovered the headless body of an unidentified man at an undisclosed location on Highway 15 in Sinaloa state. A sign near the victim read, "Keep sending us these so we don't get bored."
•Police in Altamirano, Guerrero state found the body of a local man in an open field. The victim had been shot and was wearing a dress. A message threatening several other people was found near the body.
•Soldiers in Tuzantla, Michoacan state, arrested five suspected gunmen carrying 20 kilograms of marijuana in a truck.
•Soldiers on the San Luis Rio Colorado-Golfo de Santa Clara highway in Sonora state arrested a man transporting 2.3 tons of marijuana.
•Unidentified attackers decapitated a man in Zorcua, Guerrero state at kilometer 82 of the Zihuatanejo-Lazaro Cardenas highway.
•Unidentified gunmen fired at least 40 bullets and threw a grenade at the federal police headquarters in Torreon, Coahuila state. No injuries were reported.
•Gunmen burned cars at a Renault dealership and a Volkswagen dealership 200 meters from each other in Ciudad Victoria, Tamaulipas state.
•Unidentified individuals placed 15 dismembered bodies in front of city hall in Ciudad Mante, Tamaulipas state along with a message addressed to "Z-40,” presumably referring to Miguel Trevino

June 7
•Federal police arrested 12 suspected members of the Knights Templar in Cuernavaca, Morelos state, believed responsible for the kidnapping of a woman in Temixco. The kidnappers previously held other victims at a house in the Plan de Ayala neighborhood.
•Gunmen shot and killed the regional attorney general for Acapulco, Guerrero state, outside her home in Acapulco.
•A grenade injured seven people at La Flecha Bar in Amecameca, Mexico state. The grenade apparently detonated in the bathroom of the bar, though it is unclear whether it was placed there or thrown from outside.
•A decapitated man was found in Tlacojalpan, Veracruz state. The man's hands had been nearly severed.
•Mexican authorities discovered a weapons cache hidden in bushes in La Huacana, Michoacan state. Authorities seized two Barrett .50 caliber rifles with 433 rounds, 490 7.62x39 rounds, and 500 .223 rounds.
•The Mexican navy detained Fernando Herrera Zurita aka "El Orejon,” an alleged financial operator and drug-and-weapons distributor for Los Zetas, along Federal Highway 140 between Veracruz and Xalapa. Authorities seized a side arm, four hand grenades, 73 bags of marijuana, a 40 mm grenade launcher, seven 40 mm grenades, 10 magazines, and 722 rounds of 7.62x39 ammunition. According to authorities, Herrera admitted to coordinating drug shipments from Guatemala to Tamaulipas and Nuevo Leon state.
•Unidentified gunmen in Tlalpan, Mexico City, opened fire on five people travelling in a vehicle. Two of the people died at the scene.
•Unidentified gunmen shot and killed a truck driver in Tanhuato, Michoacan state. Authorities discovered a strangled truck driver in the same area June 6.

June 8
•A cell of Sinaloa Cartel gunmen presumed to be working for Israel Zambada was arrested in Tijuana, Baja California state. Police freed two kidnapping victims held by the cell. The gunmen claimed to be receiving protection from the State Investigative Agency.
•A man shot and killed a police officer in Culiacan, Sinaloa state. The police officer had just exited an official vehicle in front of his residence when the gunman shot him in the back.
•An ammonia tank exploded in a methamphetamine lab in Culiacan, Sinaloa state, killing one lab worker and wounding three others.
•A narcomanta threatening the Morelos state prison director was found in the Ruben Jaramillo neighborhood of Temixco, Morales state. The narcomanta claimed that the director had allowed another cartel to smuggle items into the prisons and threatened to kill him or his guards if he continued doing so.
•Authorities discovered the bodies of an executed couple in a cornfield in Villa de Ahome, Sinaloa state
•Authorities discovered the bodies of three men in a taxi along Vicente Guerrero Boulevard in Acapulco, Guerrero state.
•Authorities discovered two heads in Ticuman, Morelos state along with a narcomessage attributing the killings to a criminal group. According to unspecified sources, the message threatened the police chief of Zacatepec, Morelos state.
•Soldiers in Tecamac, Mexico state arrested Raul Diaz Roman, aka "Comandante Hierro,” the man believed to be behind the 2011 killing of Mexican poet Javier Sicilia’s son.

June 9
•A drug dealer died in a firefight with police in Chavez Talamantes, Sinaloa state.
•A gunman shot and killed a man outside of a gas station in Chihuahua, Chihuahua state.
•A SWAT officer died in Saltillo, Coahuila state, after a car chase and subsequent firefight. The gunmen traveled in a white truck and a taxi during the incident.
•Mexican authorities announced the arrest of Gulf Cartel hit man Leo Ismael "El Flaco" Ordaz Sauceda for the murder of four individuals in San Nicolas de los Garza, Nuevo Leon state. According to authorities, Ordaz Sauceda confessed to the killings and revealed the identities of the other Gulf Cartel members involved.
•Police discovered decomposing human remains in seven black bags along the Sayula-San Gabriel highway near Sayula, Jalisco state.
•Authorities discovered the body of an executed male on the shore of the San Lorenzo canal in Culiacan, Sinaloa. According to unofficial reports, the victim may have been a hit man.
•Gunmen in a truck shot and killed a bicyclist on a street in Chihuahua, Chihuahua state.
•Gunmen opened fire on two men sitting outside a residence in Colonia Luis Echeverria in Monterrey, Nuevo Leon state, killing one and wounding the other.

June 10
•Authorities detained four members of La Barredora on the Xaltianguis highway in Guerrero state. The arrestees included Jose Luis Garcia, aka "El Camote,” a financial operator and plaza boss in San Marcos, Guerrero state.
•Police arrested three police officers in Iburtide, Nuevo Leon state, connected to Los Zetas in the wake of the June 6 arrest of seven Los Zetas members in Linares, Nuevo Leon state. Iburtide police chief Luis Alberto Cueva Plazas, who police accuse of links to Los Zetas, fled before the arrests.
•Unidentified attackers killed two men at an intersection in the Portal del Roble neighborhood of Chihuahua, Chihuahua state. 

June 11
•Unidentified gunmen shot and killed Margarito Genchi Casiano, a Guerrero state legislative candidate, as he arrived at his home in Llano Grande, Guerrero. Genchi Casiano was running on the Party of the Democratic Revolution ticket for a seat representing Costa Chica, Guerrero state.
•Unidentified gunmen shot and killed a local businessman in Uruapan, Michoacan state. The killing occurred outside the victim's home in the Lomas del Valle neighborhood.
•Unidentified gunmen arrived at a funeral home during a murder victim's wake, killing a female mourner and setting her body on fire with gasoline. The attackers then threw Molotov cocktails at the building, injuring five children identified as the murder victim’s children and nephews.


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## FHBOY

Pick up any newspaper in any major city, take mine for example, for a week and read the police blotter: murder, rape, cannibalism, false imprisonment, torture etc etc. 

Your notations are noted, but why? We've beaten crime to death here on the forum. We know it exists and we know we can't stop it. There are so many other things to spend time on to help each other out with, to inform each other about.


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## RPBHaas

FHBOY said:


> Pick up any newspaper in any major city, take mine for example, for a week and read the police blotter: murder, rape, cannibalism, false imprisonment, torture etc etc.
> 
> Your notations are noted, but why? We've beaten crime to death here on the forum. We know it exists and we know we can't stop it. There are so many other things to spend time on to help each other out with, to inform each other about.


I am not trying to prove any point. (pro or con Mexico) 
The post is simply informative. 
There are/were some specific questions regarding security issues in Mexico in other threads. What I posted are the specifics.
I felt that maybe some of the forum users would find the information interesting, besides security in Mexico being a continual issue.


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## FHBOY

RPBHaas said:


> I am not trying to prove any point. (pro or con Mexico)
> The post is simply informative.
> There are/were some specific questions regarding security issues in Mexico in other threads. What I posted are the specifics.
> I felt that maybe some of the forum users would find the information interesting, besides security in Mexico being a continual issue.


OK - just a news report.


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## RPBHaas

FHBOY said:


> OK - just a news report.


That's it. 
Due to my business in Mexico, I feel it necessary to be informed of the security situation here in Mexico. The information comes from a private intelligence company Statfor. I love living in Mexico and do not wish to discourage others from this experience.


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## Longford

FHBOY said:


> Pick up any newspaper in any major city, take mine for example, for a week and read the police blotter: murder, rape, cannibalism, false imprisonment, torture etc etc.
> 
> Your notations are noted, but why? We've beaten crime to death here on the forum. We know it exists and we know we can't stop it. There are so many other things to spend time on to help each other out with, to inform each other about.


I'm observing that there's a tendency on this forum for some "regulars" to insinuate, suggest or even attempt to dictate to others what's appropriate for discussion and what's not based on _their_ personal likes/dislikes. I think those responses run contrary to the purpose of public forums. 

Participants (and just those who read discussions) arrive here with varying levels of interest, knowledge, information and viewpoints and should not be made to feel they will be met with agression or that they are doing something wrong if they post comments or information they wish to share with others even when someone else may disagree with what they've posted. That type of response by "regulars" (or anyone else) is probably a principal reason many people just read forums and don't post anything. Nobody enjoys being unfairly singled out for criticism. 

Each of us has our own style of posting and participating. I don't see mention on this expatforum of a sole, approved form for discussions. No right. No wrong (as long as community standards of behavior are complied with). So my suggestion is that we show each other the respect to express opinions/information we decide is important to share. "Crime" and "Violence" in Mexico are a principal, legitimate concern of many expats and wanna-be expats. There's no denying that. If we are uninterested in participating further we can simply move-on to a discussion we have something to add to. 

End or rant.

Thanks.


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## pappabee

RPBHaas said:


> I am not trying to prove any point. (pro or con Mexico)
> The post is simply informative.
> There are/were some specific questions regarding security issues in Mexico in other threads. What I posted are the specifics.
> I felt that maybe some of the forum users would find the information interesting, besides security in Mexico being a continual issue.


But your listing is for the entire country not just one area or city. If you remove the narcos killing narcos and the authorities killing or capturing narcos you have very little left. I didn't read the entire list but I didn't see ANY Epats listed on it. 

Your point is moot and nothing new. As FHBoy has said, for information only and that's fine. So let's just leave it at that.


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## circle110

I didn't get the impression that RPBHaas was trying to make a point. I felt that he was leaving the conclusions for each of us to draw.

I found the report interesting although it still left me wanting more information. Some items like the shooting in Uruapan could have been due to a love triangle as much as drug trafficking. It doesn't give any more information.

I could interpret the report one of two ways. One way would be to say, "wow, look at all those violent events in a week". Or, I could look at it like pappabee and say that there isn't much left in the report once you strip out the events directly attributable to the drug trade.

I think both ways of looking at it are valid. Assuming that the report is accurate (I have no reason to doubt it), it's just information to be used - or not - in making your own assessment.


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## ExpatPumpkin

Longford said:


> I'm observing that there's a tendency on this forum for some "regulars" to insinuate, suggest or even attempt to dictate to others what's appropriate for discussion and what's not based on _their_ personal likes/dislikes. *I think those responses run contrary to the purpose of public forums. *


Totally agree. I was very bothered by the censorship on this board when I lived in Mexico and frequented discussions here. I actually had a first-hand account (my own) of the deteriorating safety situation in Monterrey (where I lived at the time) _erased from the board_ because it was deemed inappropriate subject matter.


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## 146028

As far as I know, the poster didn't break any of the forum rules, so the post is perfectly valid.

I mean, one could argue that the information is not necessary, but there is so many threads here that are not necessary either, so where do you draw the line.

Forum rules are objective, opinions on the usefulness of a thread are not.


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## pappabee

polynomial said:


> As far as I know, the poster didn't break any of the forum rules, so the post is perfectly valid.
> 
> I mean, one could argue that the information is not necessary, but there is so many threads here that are not necessary either, so where do you draw the line.
> 
> Forum rules are objective, opinions on the usefulness of a thread are not.


I really don't think that anyone is saying that the information or any of the comments are breaking forum rules. What I'm saying is that I feel that we have covered the "crime" beat here in Mexico so completely that any re-statement or re-listing is, as was said, beating a dead horse. 

Now new information or new insights would be wonderful. And as far as censorship goes I have only seen one post that has been deleted in the past few months and that one was clearly against the rules. 

By definition opinions can never be objective so that they always must be subject to the likes/dislikes of the person writing them. So, IMHO, I am tired of hearing about crime. If I really wanted to follow the "crime beat" I could get a copy of the morning reports from the major cities in the states and read about it for the next 10 hours. But to me enough is enough. Let's focus on the beauty of the country and the wonderful things that go on around here. The great people, the great food, the great fun. Enough crime, unless something brand new comes up.


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## conorkilleen

ExpatPumpkin said:


> Totally agree. I was very bothered by the censorship on this board when I lived in Mexico and frequented discussions here. I actually had a first-hand account (my own) of the deteriorating safety situation in Monterrey (where I lived at the time) _erased from the board_ because it was deemed inappropriate subject matter.


Exactly. If anyone want to know about how safe or unsafe it is here in Monterrey just PM me. I live here. It's hard to deny facts, but when someone presents an opinion based on facts, they get the crud beat out of them. 

I dislike a few people that post on this board because all they do is beat people down about what someone else posts. It's like you need to add a disclaimer to every post so people know that it's your opinion or you are stating fact. Whatever. To each their own. I'm not some old codger living in a bubble (bubble pat) neither am I some rich expat vice pres of a company living high on the hog but worrying if myself or my family will be kidnapped for ransom.

This forum is full of good information if you can weed through the bullsh!t.


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## 146028

pappabee said:


> I really don't think that anyone is saying that the information or any of the comments are breaking forum rules. What I'm saying is that I feel that we have covered the "crime" beat here in Mexico so completely that any re-statement or re-listing is, as was said, beating a dead horse.
> 
> Now new information or new insights would be wonderful. And as far as censorship goes I have only seen one post that has been deleted in the past few months and that one was clearly against the rules.
> 
> By definition opinions can never be objective so that they always must be subject to the likes/dislikes of the person writing them. So, IMHO, I am tired of hearing about crime. If I really wanted to follow the "crime beat" I could get a copy of the morning reports from the major cities in the states and read about it for the next 10 hours. But to me enough is enough. Let's focus on the beauty of the country and the wonderful things that go on around here. The great people, the great food, the great fun. Enough crime, unless something brand new comes up.


It's not like you were tricked into reading the information either though.

I mean, if you really didn't want to read more about crime, then you didn't have to click this thread either, so I really don't see what the big deal is.

If anything, people complaining about the thread is what ruined it, not the OP. You just have to accept you can't control what other people post.


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## conorkilleen

polynomial said:


> It's not like you were tricked into reading the information either though.
> 
> I mean, if you really didn't want to read more about crime, then you didn't have to click this thread either, so I really don't see what the big deal is.
> 
> If anything, people complaining about the thread is what ruined it, not the OP. You just have to accept you can't control what other people post.


I wish I could like this 100 times.


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## pappabee

*Here is some new info*

From ABC News:


Travel Warning for Mexico: Possible Violent 'Retaliation' Against Americans - Yahoo! News


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## conorkilleen

pappabee said:


> From ABC News:
> 
> 
> Travel Warning for Mexico: Possible Violent 'Retaliation' Against Americans - Yahoo! News


Opinion-
The only time Americans should be worried about being singled out and targeted is if and when the US Military is ever let inside Mexico to take out the cartels. This will never happen in my lifetime hopefully.

So all I have to say to that warning is....meh. Watching your back and having a heightened sense is daily life where I live. In a previous life that same warning was just standard protocol.


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## FHBOY

We should be willing to see a valid point in Longfords post. It is true that veterans here have read stuff like the OP posted over and over again and, as I, get a little tired of it when it appears to make no point any longer. But, saying that, there are new people who come here (hopefully) and may not have been an ongoing part of any discussion and for them it is new and informative. I do not believe any old timers are imposing their will on the content but equally so, everyone has the right, within the Rules to say what they want and let the chips fall where they may. Contrary wise, newcomers need to be as aware of the POV of veterans as the veterans are of theirs.

If a new, for example, crime thread shows up, we can choose to ignore it if we've read it over and over. But, if we know that something within the post is factually incorrect, isn't it incumbent upon us to provide a well structured argument about it if we so choose?

Now, I do think that the subject of crime has been beaten to death, but after the OP gave an explanation of why, I can see it - the OP was providing information and not stating an opinion about it, like Walter Cronkite used to do.

But, I reject the charge that the members of this Forum are censoring, as one poster put it, discussions. There have been no calls to take down discussions unless they have become abusive in tone or language. Free speech and free discussion means that at some point you are not going to agree with someone else's POV, and I have yet to see, on this Forum, anyone tell anyone else that they are not entitled to their POV - even if it is not agreed with. They do reserve the right of rebuttal, but then we are into what was discussed on another thread, what this Forum is all about.

In conclusion what may be old news and info for some is new news for others. If you do want to get involved or even read it, then as been suggested _*fuggedaboutit*_ - and move on. This also can be applied to "newbies". This Forum is a very intelligent place (I am not kidding) where posts are well thought out and erudite, where people respect one another. It may not be the place for some, those who are used to one and two sentence confrontational postings and fight and flight. To remain a long time poster here takes a lot of thought, and it is not for everyone.


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## mickisue1

My only concern with the OP was that it was not readable, for a casual forum.

Long lists of occurrences may be easily scanned, if you are used to looking at them; your eye naturally ignores what is not currently of interest, and homes in on what is.

But for someone who sees that report for the first time, it's eye-glazingly tedious.

That may be part of what others were objecting to.

In the end, though, as has been said, it's up to the individual whether or not to click on or read any given post.


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## FHBOY

mickisue1 said:


> My only concern with the OP was that it was not readable, for a casual forum.
> 
> Long lists of occurrences may be easily scanned, if you are used to looking at them; your eye naturally ignores what is not currently of interest, and homes in on what is.
> 
> But for someone who sees that report for the first time, it's eye-glazingly tedious.
> 
> That may be part of what others were objecting to.
> 
> In the end, though, as has been said, it's up to the individual whether or not to click on or read any given post.


 How can English teachers be so right and so picky...picky...picky at the same time? so, what would you grade the OP post?


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## tepetapan

FHBOY said:


> We should be willing to see a valid point in Longfords post. It is true that veterans here have read stuff like the OP posted over and over again and, as I, get a little tired of it when it appears to make no point any longer. But, saying that, there are new people who come here (hopefully) and may not have been an ongoing part of any discussion and for them it is new and informative.
> 
> Now, I do think that the subject of crime has been beaten to death, but after the OP gave an explanation of why, I can see it - the OP was providing information and not stating an opinion about it
> But, I reject the charge that the members of this Forum are censoring, as one poster put it, discussions. There have been no calls to take down discussions unless they have become abusive in tone or language. Free speech and free discussion means that at some point you are not going to agree with someone else's POV, and I have yet to see, on this Forum, anyone tell anyone else that they are not entitled to their POV - even if it is not agreed with. They do reserve the right of rebuttal, but then we are into what was discussed on another thread, what this Forum is all about.
> 
> In conclusion what may be old news and info for some is new news for others. If you do want to get involved or even read it, then as been suggested _*fuggedaboutit*_ - and move on. This also can be applied to "newbies". This Forum is a very intelligent place (I am not kidding) where posts are well thought out and erudite, where people respect one another. It may not be the place for some, those who are used to one and two sentence confrontational postings and fight and flight. To remain a long time poster here takes a lot of thought, and it is not for everyone.


 I feel the whole thing (security issue) is like beating a dead horse. You can name every crime committed here in Mexico but trying to compare it to face eating zombies, murder / suicide of parents and infants, mass murder of students at school and the run of the mill mall shooting, it is called comparing apples to oranges. Is it really?
The media is biased. How about the Arizona sheriff who claimed (in the last week) the burned out Ford Explorer, found in Arizona with 5 people, was a cartel hit? This was found to be a murder / suicide of husband and family members but the media ran with the cartel thing because it sells. And that is the whole problem. There are business, not just the usual government agencies, who are making huge money on the deaths of the people of Mexico. Insurance companies, security companies, vendors, trucking companies, newspapers, pay per click internet blog rags just to name a few. It is big business and huge money.

There is one poster on a couple other forums that has for the past years posted warnings of travel in certain areas, too dangerous to travel, they claim. Quite a good writer infact (unlike myself) who sells the fear and violence well. But wait, if you do a bit of reading in the past you will find that this person sells risk insurance to cross border trucking companies. So the more fear spread and violence implied means bigger premiums and a bigger pay check. What makes Stafor any different?
How about, since the OP already has paid for the "inside information" post what is happening in the USA and a posting of what is happening in Canada. Give us all a weeks worth of dirt on each and pacify my soul. Why doesn´t Stafor inform the subscriber about the Quebec protests , the Occupy Movement or even the list of
United States private paramilitary groups? 
..and FMBOY, the post was not useful in my mind. In my mind it was a complete waste of electrons to even post such things since, without paying anyone, I can find it all on my own on the internet. Being fed this type information is nothing more being fed propaganda.


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## TundraGreen

tepetapan said:


> I feel the whole thing (security issue) is like beating a dead horse. ...


Ironically, complaining about security-issue-posts is also getting to be like "beating a dead horse". There seems to be a subset of us that likes to discuss security and a subset that is very tired of it. As long as both subsets exist, we are going to see posts about security and posts from people who are tired of hearing about it. The only solution seems to be to not read those threads, but I read them anyway.


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## RPBHaas

tepetapan said:


> I feel the whole thing (security issue) is like beating a dead horse. You can name every crime committed here in Mexico but trying to ,
> ..and FMBOY, the post was not useful in my mind. In my mind it was a complete waste of electrons to even post such things since, without paying anyone, I can find it all on my own on the internet. Being fed this type information is nothing more being fed propaganda.


There is another current thread titled "Personal opinion on forum direction". The OP, Detailman, makes the point that "there seems to be a tendency to argue over words, definitions, percentages, polls, crime, politics (USA and Mexico), whatever. It seems that many are taking an adversarial position." Then he poses the question, "Are we now a debating forum?"

My post was simply a more detailed account of what some other posters had generalized in other threads. 

I WAS/AM NOT TRYING TO MAKE A POINT!

My OPINION regarding security in Mexico trends towards those commenting against this original post. I feel Mexico is safe in many areas and that the US media tends to "blow it out of proportion". THIS is my personal opinion but not the "POINT" of my original post.


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## ExpatPumpkin

FHBOY said:


> *But, I reject the charge that the members of this Forum are censoring, as one poster put it, discussions. * There have been no calls to take down discussions unless they have become abusive in tone or language. Free speech and free discussion means that at some point you are not going to agree with someone else's POV, and I have yet to see, on this Forum, anyone tell anyone else that they are not entitled to their POV - even if it is not agreed with. They do reserve the right of rebuttal, but then we are into what was discussed on another thread, what this Forum is all about.


Actually, censorship is exactly what happened to me on this board. Someone came on and asked about the safety of driving through Northern Mexico and I gave my first-hand account of the state of affairs in Monterrey and urged the poster to be cautious. 

[Deleted]

While we all know that the media sensationalizes the violence in Mexico, turning a blind eye to it on this board and pretending it doesn't exist is a service to no one.


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## tepetapan

RPBHaas said:


> There is another current thread titled "Personal opinion on forum direction". The OP, Detailman, makes the point that "there seems to be a tendency to argue over words, definitions, percentages, polls, crime, politics (USA and Mexico), whatever. It seems that many are taking an adversarial position." Then he poses the question, "Are we now a debating forum?"
> 
> My post was simply a more detailed account of what some other posters had generalized in other threads.
> 
> I WAS/AM NOT TRYING TO MAKE A POINT!
> 
> I guess you leave me wondering what the point was concerning your post. Like most news sources, it seems to be lacking in the good things that happened during that same time.
> Posting one side of a subject is what it is... Why not also post that mexico reported last week to have added another billion dollars to their cash reserves last month and has a less than 5 % debt ratio vs its GNP?. I would have not responded if you would have tried to at least balance the positive and the negitive but that does not seem to be the case in both parts.
> Adversarial, may be, but when a post only shows one side subjuctively. someone should post an opposing view. .


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## TundraGreen

ExpatPumpkin said:


> Actually, censorship is exactly what happened to me on this board. Someone came on and asked about the safety of driving through Northern Mexico and I gave my first-hand account of the state of affairs in Monterrey and urged the poster to be cautious.
> 
> [Deleted]
> 
> While we all know that the media sensationalizes the violence in Mexico, turning a blind eye to it on this board and pretending it doesn't exist is a service to no one.


Your earlier post may not have broken any rules, but this one does. One of the rules (#5) prohibits discussing the moderation. I will send you a private message on the subject.


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## RPBHaas

tepetapan said:


> RPBHaas said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is another current reported last week to have added another billion dollars to their cash reserves last month and has a less than 5 % debt ratio vs its GNP?. I would have not responded if you would have tried to at least balance the positive and the negitive but that does not seem to be the case in both parts.
> Adversarial, may be, but when a post only shows one side subjuctively. someone should post an opposing view. .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The post is titled "Mexico Security Update".
> 
> WOW. I never imagined I would have to defend a posting of information related to a real life concern, security. If someone cares to plot the occurances on a map and draw their own conclusions, great. If there are those of you that wish to ignore the posted occurances, great.
Click to expand...


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## ExpatPumpkin

TundraGreen said:


> Your earlier post may not have broken any rules, but this one does. One of the rules (#5) prohibits discussing the moderation. I will send you a private message on the subject.


Thank you for your message.


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## pappabee

TundraGreen said:


> Ironically, complaining about security-issue-posts is also getting to be like "beating a dead horse". There seems to be a subset of us that likes to discuss security and a subset that is very tired of it. As long as both subsets exist, we are going to see posts about security and posts from people who are tired of hearing about it. The only solution seems to be to not read those threads, but I read them anyway.


One of the reasons that I read the security posts is to see if there is anything new. Sadly that has not been the case. Other than the notice that I posted regarding the US capture of some Zeta members there has been nothing new posted in some time. IMHO there have been posting saying the same thing but viewed from different angles. But a horse of any other color is still a horse. I think that we have all defended our choices and explained the where, why and how enough. I strongly suggest that, unless we have something NEW to post, we just let the topic alone. 

:clap2:


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## Detailman

RPBHaas said:


> There is another current thread titled "Personal opinion on forum direction". The OP, Detailman, makes the point that "there seems to be a tendency to argue over words, definitions, percentages, polls, crime, politics (USA and Mexico), whatever. It seems that many are taking an adversarial position." Then he poses the question, "Are we now a debating forum?"
> 
> My post was simply a more detailed account of what some other posters had generalized in other threads.
> 
> I WAS/AM NOT TRYING TO MAKE A POINT!
> 
> My OPINION regarding security in Mexico trends towards those commenting against this original post. I feel Mexico is safe in many areas and that the US media tends to "blow it out of proportion". THIS is my personal opinion but not the "POINT" of my original post.


You quote my personal opinion, which is just my observation.

For clarification, my personal opinion is that your post does not fill the bill of "debating or arguing over words", etc. You are simply listing a recent report of crime incidents, so I feel that my comments are not applicable to your post.

Whether I have an interest in those incidents being posted is not important. Who am I to say what might be of interest to others. I can only speak for myself. I do not assume to speak for others.

The thrust of my post was simply to suggest that all of us might need to at least reflect on how we put things and avoid becoming "agressively adversarial" as it really serves no real purpose. We can all have our say, our opinions, our viewpoint and still be respectful of others when we disagree.


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## conorkilleen




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## 146028

The point of this thread was never to talk about the positive things in Mexico. If you want to talk about those things, you can always create a new thread. 

If you want to talk about violence, and you want to disagree with the information presented, then that's also fine, you can show why you disagree, and say that crime is not as bad or whatever. Everyone has the right to their own opinion. Which means that, if you see information that you think it's wrong, then you can point out why it's wrong.

What is not OK though, is to tell people not to discuss violence just because it's been done too much. Within the rules, the OP can post whatever information he wants, and if you don't want to read it then don't click on the thread, problem solved.

I agree with those who say that a lot of big cities in the US are far more dangerous than most places in Mexico, because it's true when you compare crime rates. I agree that the media blows it out of proportion, that is all true. 

The thing is, just because it's lower than the crime in the USA doesn't mean that it's not a legitimate concern, after all, the title of this thread was not "Mexico's Crime Rate compared to United States' rate" or "Mexico's security vs USA security." It was simply Mexico Security Update.


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## ptrichmondmike

My question is, "Is that ALL the violent crime that happened in Mexico last week?" I'm sure it's not, in a country of more than 100 million people. Otherwise, Mexico is probably a lot safer than California. In any event, nearly all of these cases appear to be related to the drug war. Yes, the gross brutality is chilling...but expats don't ever seem to be targets. 

Am I right?


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## FHBOY

pappabee said:


> It is a Trash 80 but with a b/w screen not the original green one. I thought I was great stuff when I longed into a site with my 800 baud modem and got a green blog. And then it wanted me to do everything in DOS. I still know most of the commands.


I loved DOS, it was so simple, but then again the first computer language I learned in high school in 1965 was Machine Language (yes, eight "1"s and "0"s to type out a letter) and then I "graduated" to Fortran. Oh, my first home computer was a TRS, that hooked to a portable TV and had an external cassette drive that ran in BASIC. Just a keyboard and a drive. Taught my kids computers on it, then borrowed a friends Osborne, the size of a portable sewing machine, with a 5" "screen", my first real DOS computer - first program: Sign Shop, I think it was called.

See, young 'uns, we old farts remember when 16K was a big whoop!

:focus:


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## RPBHaas

ptrichmondmike said:


> My question is, "Is that ALL the violent crime that happened in Mexico last week?" I'm sure it's not, in a country of more than 100 million people. Otherwise, Mexico is probably a lot safer than California. In any event, nearly all of these cases appear to be related to the drug war. Yes, the gross brutality is chilling...but expats don't ever seem to be targets.
> 
> Am I right?


Victims? Rarely. Targets? Not if they are not involved. (double negative, just like in Spanglish)


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## conklinwh

Not sure whether this old computer link or crime & violence.
As to latter, was just reading how violent crime has exploded in Chicago. Reports on last three weekends were 29, 46 & 20 shootings in Chicago including a 16 year old girl. Crime is getting bad everywhere and will probably get worse before it gets better.
[Comment moved to Computer Thread]


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## conklinwh

Maybe should have a new thread but I found the referenced NY Times article on Guzman & the drug trade to be very interesting.
www.nytimes.com/2012/06/17/magazine...anted=1&_r=1&StyleDigiSub&partner=rss&emc=rss


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## edgeee

*Thimk before you act*

an OP usually doesn't consider that the name given to any thread is the headline for a story s/he and others will write until it dies on it's own. it can be misleading, but not this time.
(face it folks, a forum is a place you go to read - and maybe write - stories individually chosen by the reader. but what you may write is not TV Guide. if "you have chosen poorly", just change the channel.)
in that regard, at least half of what i read here is superfluous at best.
it's just a report folks!
the OP just put it out there. if you like it good. if you don't, so what?


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## FHBOY

conklinwh said:


> Maybe should have a new thread but I found the referenced NY Times article on Guzman & the drug trade to be very interesting.
> www.nytimes.com/2012/06/17/magazine...anted=1&_r=1&StyleDigiSub&partner=rss&emc=rss


Good post, will finish reading it later. 

BTW, did you see the news that La Chapo Guzman's son was arrested on Thursday in Zappopan [sic].

Question: What does that arrest mean? Why do I feel it is more symbolic than anything? Will his arrest do anything to change the landscape of drugs/drug cartels/drug violence in Mexico?


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## maesonna

Update, it turns out that it likely wasn’t El Chapo’s son after all. His wife (Guzman Jr.’s wife) is claiming the guy doesn’t even look like him. Story here and in many other newspapers. If the authorities made a mistake, it won’t be the first time. I recall another high-profile case of this type from a few years ago, but can’t find links right now.


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## conklinwh

Authorities have now confirmed that not his son but a car dealer. They have not explained why he had all the cash along with a large weapons stash.


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## conorkilleen

conklinwh said:


> Authorities have now confirmed that not his son but a car dealer. They have not explained why he had all the cash along with a large weapons stash.


That last part is what I want to know about. I've been following "Gordo-gate" for the last few days now. Lots of finger pointing from the MX side to the DEA and back. 

Anyway, used car dealers usually don't need grenades and 150,000+ in cash.


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## maesonna

The authorities haven’t been able to explain the cash and weapons, but news reports say the family of the arrested car dealer said the money was there because they had they had recently sold a house, and there were no weapons in their house.


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## DNP

This from AP about 10 minutes ago:

MEXICO CITY (AP) - A shooting erupted at a food court in Mexico City's international airport on Monday and officials said two policemen were killed.

A witness said the shooters were also wearing police-like uniforms.

The shootings occurred at the airport's Terminal 2, near the area where vehicles drop off passengers. Three shots rang out at first, said witness Israel Lopez, a 23-year-old Mexico City student who had gone to the airport to see off a friend. Lopez didn't see who those first shots were directed at, but then the gunfire came closer.

"We were in the food court, and some policemen came in and started shooting at another policeman who was on the floor," Lopez said by telephone. "We dove to the floor and covered ourselves with chairs," Lopez said.

Lopez said the shooters wore blue uniforms, like those worn by the federal police who provide security at the airport. He said the shooters then ran off to the car park area "as if they were pursuing somebody," and he lost sight of them.

Airport spokesman Jorge Gomez told local media that the two dead were police officers, as was another victim taken to a local hospital. The federal Public Safety Department says at least one was an officer, but was checking the identity of the others.

The possible motives in the shooting were still unclear. Nor is it clear if the uniforms the gunmen wore were genuine; criminals in Mexico sometimes wear fake uniforms.

The airport said in a press statement that the terminal and flights were operating normally following what it described as "a dispute in an open-access area."

Shootings at Mexican airports are rare. In 1993 Roman Catholic Cardinal Juan Posadas Ocampo was killed in an airport parking lot in Guadalajara. Authorities later said his killers had apparently mistaken his car for that of a rival drug lord.

WashDC/SMA


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## DNP

DNP said:


> This from AP about 10 minutes ago:
> 
> MEXICO CITY (AP) - A shooting erupted at a food court in Mexico City's international airport on Monday and officials said two policemen were killed.
> 
> A witness said the shooters were also wearing police-like uniforms.
> 
> The shootings occurred at the airport's Terminal 2, near the area where vehicles drop off passengers. Three shots rang out at first, said witness Israel Lopez, a 23-year-old Mexico City student who had gone to the airport to see off a friend. Lopez didn't see who those first shots were directed at, but then the gunfire came closer.
> 
> "We were in the food court, and some policemen came in and started shooting at another policeman who was on the floor," Lopez said by telephone. "We dove to the floor and covered ourselves with chairs," Lopez said.
> 
> Lopez said the shooters wore blue uniforms, like those worn by the federal police who provide security at the airport. He said the shooters then ran off to the car park area "as if they were pursuing somebody," and he lost sight of them.
> 
> Airport spokesman Jorge Gomez told local media that the two dead were police officers, as was another victim taken to a local hospital. The federal Public Safety Department says at least one was an officer, but was checking the identity of the others.
> 
> The possible motives in the shooting were still unclear. Nor is it clear if the uniforms the gunmen wore were genuine; criminals in Mexico sometimes wear fake uniforms.
> 
> The airport said in a press statement that the terminal and flights were operating normally following what it described as "a dispute in an open-access area."
> 
> Shootings at Mexican airports are rare. In 1993 Roman Catholic Cardinal Juan Posadas Ocampo was killed in an airport parking lot in Guadalajara. Authorities later said his killers had apparently mistaken his car for that of a rival drug lord.
> 
> WashDC/SMA


WashDC/SMA


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## DNP

DNP said:


> This from AP about 10 minutes ago:
> 
> MEXICO CITY (AP) - A shooting erupted at a food court in Mexico City's international airport on Monday and officials said two policemen were killed.
> 
> A witness said the shooters were also wearing police-like uniforms.
> 
> The shootings occurred at the airport's Terminal 2, near the area where vehicles drop off passengers. Three shots rang out at first, said witness Israel Lopez, a 23-year-old Mexico City student who had gone to the airport to see off a friend. Lopez didn't see who those first shots were directed at, but then the gunfire came closer.
> 
> "We were in the food court, and some policemen came in and started shooting at another policeman who was on the floor," Lopez said by telephone. "We dove to the floor and covered ourselves with chairs," Lopez said.
> 
> Lopez said the shooters wore blue uniforms, like those worn by the federal police who provide security at the airport. He said the shooters then ran off to the car park area "as if they were pursuing somebody," and he lost sight of them.
> 
> Airport spokesman Jorge Gomez told local media that the two dead were police officers, as was another victim taken to a local hospital. The federal Public Safety Department says at least one was an officer, but was checking the identity of the others.
> 
> The possible motives in the shooting were still unclear. Nor is it clear if the uniforms the gunmen wore were genuine; criminals in Mexico sometimes wear fake uniforms.
> 
> The airport said in a press statement that the terminal and flights were operating normally following what it described as "a dispute in an open-access area."
> 
> Shootings at Mexican airports are rare. In 1993 Roman Catholic Cardinal Juan Posadas Ocampo was killed in an airport parking lot in Guadalajara. Authorities later said his killers had apparently mistaken his car for that of a rival drug lord.
> 
> WashDC/SMA


A link to the article referenced above and in my previous post:

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/201...exico-airport-shooting.html?_r=2&ref=aponline

WashDC/SMA


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## FHBOY

*D.F. Shootings*

Let's wait to hear more details before the Chicken Little's of the world begin to tell us that Mexico is unsafe and we are all crazy for wanting to live/move there. 

A shooting in a public place like an international airport is a bit above cartel violence and strikes of random terrorism [?]. But, let's see how this develops. 

I, for one future expat, am not ready to change my mind. This sounds cavalier but: "Stuff Happens".


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## conorkilleen

FHBOY said:


> Let's wait to hear more details before the Chicken Little's of the world begin to tell us that Mexico is unsafe and we are all crazy for wanting to live/move there.
> 
> A shooting in a public place like an international airport is a bit above cartel violence and strikes of random terrorism [?]. But, let's see how this develops.
> 
> I, for one future expat, am not ready to change my mind. This sounds cavalier but: "Stuff Happens".


 I fly in and out of that terminal almost every other week. You do need to watch your 6 at all times, but this was a freak incident. The chances of it happening again are slim.


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## conklinwh

My guess, and only a guess, is that this probably an assassination gone bad. One cartel after leader of another. Pretty brazen!


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## conorkilleen

conklinwh said:


> My guess, and only a guess, is that this probably an assassination gone bad. One cartel after leader of another. Pretty brazen!


Probably similar along those lines. If the 2 killers were dressed as Police, then they could have been looking to abduct someone as well. (This has been a re-occuring practice in Mexico). I think the killers got found out by the real police and that is when the shooting happened after the cover was blown. I doubt we will ever know the truth, but speculating sure is fun, right?


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## pappabee

conorkilleen said:


> Probably similar along those lines. If the 2 killers were dressed as Police, then they could have been looking to abduct someone as well. (This has been a re-occuring practice in Mexico). I think the killers got found out by the real police and that is when the shooting happened after the cover was blown. I doubt we will ever know the truth, but speculating sure is fun, right?


Hold it everyone, as of this moment we don't know if it was police or not. We only know that they all were dressed in uniforms. They all could have been non-police. I agree that we should wait and get all the facts before some people start yelling CRIME, MURDER, DRUGS OR WHAT EVER ELSE THEY WANT TO FIT IN.


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## conklinwh

SWAGs' are more fun than waiting for facts and then debating veracity of facts.


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## conorkilleen

pappabee said:


> Hold it everyone, as of this moment we don't know if it was police or not. We only know that they all were dressed in uniforms. They all could have been non-police. I agree that we should wait and get all the facts before some people start yelling CRIME, MURDER, DRUGS OR WHAT EVER ELSE THEY WANT TO FIT IN.


Yeah, maybe I was getting a little ahead of myself, however a MURDER did happen and in Mexicos most frequented public place, no less.

I've seen Mexican Movie stars, US celebs, whole soccer teams, and lots of political figures in that Terminal (2).

I'll be taking my family through there in a few weeks. Stray bullets are stray bullets. Cop or no cop there was still a firearm discharged and people killed in Mexicos most high traffic location.


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## tepetapan

conklinwh said:


> SWAGs' are more fun than waiting for facts and then debating veracity of facts.


Mexico City • The federal Public Security Secretariat confirmed that federal agents gunned down this morning at the Mexico City International Airport were conducting an investigation for drug trafficking at the airport.

In a statement, also released that already are three federal agents who died, because the element was taken to a hospital killed

Although the press release makes no reference to the identity of the alleged killers of the agents, Federal Police authorities confirmed to MILLENNIUM victims went to the Airport Terminal 2 to stop alleged collusion with a corrupt federal drug ring operating at the airport.

However, according to preliminary investigations, the alleged drug-related police realized they were investigated and fired the elements of the federal police to avoid arrest.

"This morning, members of the Federal Police who conducted research moved for ensuring alleged perpetrators linked to drug trafficking offense, in Terminal 2 International Airport in Mexico City, when surrounded by the Federal police, shots were fired with a firearm against the federal agents, "the newsletter of the SSP.

He added that in 2011 the Federal Police said 90 kilograms of cocaine at the international airport of Mexico City and in 2012 more than 200 kilograms of the drug.
First off, reading news reports from Mexico is fast AND easy
Second is, OK OK forums love rumor and opinoin, so be it.
Third is what the heck is SWAG? In my humble opinoin it is more cool than necessary.


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## conorkilleen

The Universal is reporting they were all police officers and they were trying to detain drug traffickers...whom just so happened to be police as well. That is why they had guns inside the terminal. I think I'll wait to see what other news agency bites on that story. seems fishy


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## edgeee

tepetapan said:


> Mexico City • T
> 
> First off, reading news reports from Mexico is fast AND easy
> Second is, OK OK forums love rumor and opinoin, so be it.
> Third is what the heck is SWAG? In my humble opinoin it is more cool than necessary.


in this context, i think it means 'scientific wild ass guess'.


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## pappabee

tepetapan said:


> Mexico City • The federal Public Security Secretariat confirmed that federal agents gunned down this morning at the Mexico City International Airport were conducting an investigation for drug trafficking at the airport.
> 
> In a statement, also released that already are three federal agents who died, because the element was taken to a hospital killed
> 
> Although the press release makes no reference to the identity of the alleged killers of the agents, Federal Police authorities confirmed to MILLENNIUM victims went to the Airport Terminal 2 to stop alleged collusion with a corrupt federal drug ring operating at the airport.
> 
> However, according to preliminary investigations, the alleged drug-related police realized they were investigated and fired the elements of the federal police to avoid arrest.
> 
> "This morning, members of the Federal Police who conducted research moved for ensuring alleged perpetrators linked to drug trafficking offense, in Terminal 2 International Airport in Mexico City, when surrounded by the Federal police, shots were fired with a firearm against the federal agents, "the newsletter of the SSP.
> 
> He added that in 2011 the Federal Police said 90 kilograms of cocaine at the international airport of Mexico City and in 2012 more than 200 kilograms of the drug.
> First off, reading news reports from Mexico is fast AND easy
> Second is, OK OK forums love rumor and opinoin, so be it.
> Third is what the heck is SWAG? In my humble opinoin it is more cool than necessary.


I still think that we need to give it a few days before we really know what happened. Just remember the report about El Chapo Jr. 

FYI The Guadalajara Reporter web site has moved here is the new site:
Guadalajara Reporter


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## mickisue1

Is there anything new in the information about the shooting yesterday?


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## conorkilleen

mickisue1 said:


> Is there anything new in the information about the shooting yesterday?


I have just heard different variations of yesterdays.


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## FHBOY

US papers report it was drug related - the cops were shot at after the drug guys found out who they were and that they were going to be apprehended. The druggies got away by running through the parking lot. Check CNN.com or AP or the Times.

:ranger: EDITORIAL OPINION: 
So...unlike random violence we've been discussing, if the reports are true, it is a continuation of the drug wars in Mexico. It does not make it less severe, but in my mind - what ever is left of it - it still does not seem as bad as the random street crime in my city, all over the city, in residential neighborhoods, etc. Now you can say a lot of our crime problem here is caused by drugs, and you'd probably be correct, but not entirely. But how would you explain an off-duty suburban cop killing a 17 year old suburban high school student in the suburbs because the kid was involved with a bunch of others who threw a rock at the guy's house? Es verdad - kid was buried on Saturday. 

Yes, this is the insanity we live with...sadly it makes the type of crime we read about in Mexico sound "sane"? Sound "purposeful"? Isn't that perverse?


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## edgeee

disclaimer: This is all only my opinions and i own no property, so sue me at your own risk.
(this should make repeating "i think" unnecessary, but it doesn't seem to work.)

FHBOY, perverse is the password to the future, the one you and i don't want to be in.
(every generation rebels, and it always scares the sh!t out of their elders.)

insanity is what i see everywhere i look, even in my mirror. i've done lot's of things i'm not proud of.
(as A.E. defined it, we all have it.)

but 'purposeful', that's different. whether you meant to or not, you have pinpointed the pulse of the problem.
IMO everyone on both sides of violence have very concrete reasons - a purpose - to pursue.
victims want safety, and those not yet afflicted want to be free from their fear.

the perps, they have whatever mania drives them. what they believe in, and how much they care. just like us.
to deny this merely clouds one's vision of reality.
we often make the mistake of expecting others to think the way we do. they don't.
but their thinking process follows the same signs. they decide what they want and they go for it.
this is where morality and such enter, but that's off topic.

regarding the horrific events scattered around Mexico, and the USA, we tend to somehow view the two as seperate things.
they are more than that, but that too is a different story.

what seperates them is the purpose behind the motivation. when you pin down the purpose, you make a quantam leap.
in the US, there is a new conception. what everyone calls random violence, to me is more like 'fighting back'.
in America, huge masses of humanity are bunched together under intolerable conditions.
(more like third-world nations than you would like to know. not you personally, the public 'you')

(ed note: as i proofread this, i can see how many Mx. natives would say, "yes but we have that too.
(OK, sí, pero tenemos que también, if google is any good.
and i want it on the record, Magnificent Seven is a movie i can't get enough of.)

they see injustice and violence as part of everyday life. they hate it, but they learn it from day one.
to stretch a point, the problem becomes the solution; fight fire with fire, so to speak.
in such an environment, any individual has to adapt and adopt the common customs. survival demands it.
and with it comes crime. with crime comes incarceration, also known as the 'school for criminals'.
but mentioning the prison system means discussing punishment v. rehabiltation, and i don't want to do that here.

to me, that purpose thing means i can target my own choices accordingly.

do i want to live where crime is stupidly driven toward feeding on itself and growing by leaps and bounds?
not really, but what are my options?

well i could try to get a job as a prison guard, but that's more like the military than i want to go.
(and it's not an option anyway. very few things are.)

do i want to live where crime is largely composed of some inner struggle between good and evil?
(as if there was such a thing.) by this i mean what i see as the Mx. people v. the cartels.
and there is always the issue of how close it is to home.
well maybe, if i can be on the right side. (there you go again, being picky.)

but i do like the idea that in Mexico there semms to be a common enemy.
the drug cartels, which have long had too much influence in running the country.
they own polticians, always have, always will.

in America we have the politicians, who have too much influence in running the country.
they are owned by drug cartels, also known as pharmecuticals, not to mention oil/gas, MIC, banks,
insurance companys and billionaires in general.

in America, i can get guns, if i want. i am pretty good with them, but i don't like them around me.
like cars and trucks, they are too often operated by those who don't understand how deadly they are.

in Mexico i can't legally own a gun, and that's fine. i feel better knowing that also applies to my neighbors.
but i feel even better when i understand that most of them do have at least one gun,
because i understand why they have it, and so do they.

so, security is where you find it, hiding in a ditch, or sleeping in the barraks.
but to me there is a link most people miss.
it's not about the 'where', except as how it relates to the 'what'.

how i feel about 'where' i am allows me to dial up or down on the vigilance/anxiety scale.
'what' is my level of confidence and contentment, that comes from my surroundings?
well, it's everything.

if that's too confusing - and i can see that it is confusing - look at it this way.
i trust the neighbors i don't yet have in Mexico more than i trust the neighbors i have now.


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## conklinwh

Sounds a bit like the old Chinese curse-"May you live in interesting times!".
I think everyone needs to try to establish a personal comfort level and that involves a lot of tradeoffs. Most of us abhor the violence wherever it is. 
The results of the upcoming elections in Mexico could be very telling as to how the incoming President, probably Nieto, will deal with the cartels.


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