# Am reading this is absolute shock!



## leedsutdgem (Jun 3, 2010)

http://www.diariosur.es/v/20120429/malaga/privilegios-funcionarios-revision-20120429.html

Had no idea they got all this!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

leedsutdgem said:


> Los privilegios de los funcionarios, en revisin. SUR.es
> 
> Had no idea they got all this!



It does make you wonder how and why and for how much longer is it all sustainable. Its like the Spanish air traffic controllers, they get 4 times more than they do in the UK (I've heard). 

Jo xxx


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

jojo said:


> It does make you wonder how and why and for how much longer is it all sustainable. Its like the Spanish air traffic controllers, they get 4 times more than they do in the UK (I've heard).
> 
> Jo xxx


I have friends who are Spanish air traffic controllers, one has left the profession and returned to being a pilot, the others have had to take a 40% cut in wages.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Hepa said:


> I have friends who are Spanish air traffic controllers, one has left the profession and returned to being a pilot, the others have had to take a 40% cut in wages.


I've got a friend who is ATC in Gib and he apparently is on UK pay????!!! But I think during the last strike fiasco (if memory serves that was about hours rather than pay!), the ATC got so little sympathy that yes, they had to take a cut??!!

Jo xxx


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

My friends do not strike


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

The article isn't bout ATCs, it's about public sector workers. In a lot of cases benefits in kind help compensate for low wages and are often tax deductible. They have all had their wages cut in the past year, some more than once. 

Of course private sector workers get perks too, which are largely taken for granted. Private healthcare, company cars, meal allowances, profit-share bonuses, company credit cards (you'd be amazed what some people claim on those). 

One area which really does need attention is politicians' remuneration. Firstly, there are far too many of them - nearly half a million in the country as a whole, more than the combined total of doctors, police and firefighters. They can claim lavish expenses and privileges, and retire on a full pension after just seven years' service. This is one of the main concerns of the 15-M movement.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

A sense of proportion needed here, methinks.
If I'm going to get hot under the collar about people's remuneration, it won't be over people who actually WORK for a living, whatever their occupation.
Perhaps we should consider the case of the Duke of Westminster, owner of an enormous private Spanish estate, who is the proud owner also of an £8.5 billion - yes billion - fortune. All he did to gain possession of that was to be born in the right bed.
Or the case of those on the Sunday Times 'Rich List' who, whilst most of us British plebs have seen our wages, investment incomes and pensions decrease in value, have managed to increase their wealth by over 5%.
What is it about British people that makes them sour about workers who earn more than they do whilst apparently accepting the huge disparities in wealth and income between the very well off and the rest of us? I thought envy and forelock-tugging had disappeared...apparently not.
We must be mad, we Brits. We are ruled by a bunch of incompetent tossers who inspite of their expensive elite school and university education seemingly can't run the proverbial chip shop. The same useless Government appoints as a tax-efficiency Tsar a man who avoids tax on his multi-million empire by giving ownership to his Monaco-domiciled wife.
Yet people complain about what Air Traffic Controllers and public sector workers earn????
The next time you fly into Spain be thankful you are safely handled by highly-skilled workers with enormous responsibilities who earn less than footballers, pop stars and porn merchants.
My guess is that in Spain as in the UK many public sector workers are not that highly paid. 
Yes,they have many perks that imo they shouldn't have. But why train your fire on these people instead of the black economy workers, the tax dodgers, people who make money from money without lifting a finger?
I disagree about politicians' salaries. Pay peanuts, you get monkeys. We need the best and brightest - and most honest - in our Town Halls and Parliaments. I don't know about Spain but UK MPs salaries aren't that exceptional. People in my family earn more than the British Prime Minister. That can't be right.
Sometimes I think we are all masochists as we seem so ready to joyfully endure whatever economic pain is inflicted on us and boy do we enjoy kicking the underdog.
Did public sector workers or Air Traffic Controllers - or even politicians -create this crisis?
No they did not.
But while we suffer the consequences those who caused it are getting even richer.
Train your fire where it's deserved.....


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> The article isn't bout ATCs, it's about public sector workers. In a lot of cases benefits in kind help compensate for low wages and are often tax deductible. They have all had their wages cut in the past year, some more than once.
> 
> Of course private sector workers get perks too, which are largely taken for granted. Private healthcare, company cars, meal allowances, profit-share bonuses, company credit cards (you'd be amazed what some people claim on those).
> 
> One area which really does need attention is politicians' remuneration. Firstly, there are far too many of them - nearly half a million in the country as a whole, more than the combined total of doctors, police and firefighters. They can claim lavish expenses and privileges, and retire on a full pension after just seven years' service. This is one of the main concerns of the 15-M movement.



You are right about public sector workers...aka policemen, nurses, firemen and so on as well as people who sit behind desks many of them actually do a useful job too.
But I think your comments about private sector workers are too unfocused. Many private sector workers in Spain and the UK earn very little and if on temporary contracts have zero job security. 
As for lavish expenses and free use of credit cards....that I doubt very much. In the UK there are quite rightly strict tax rules relating to company cars, use of expense accounts and so on and very few companies will allow free use of a company credit card.
If politicians' remuneration is one of the main concerns of 15M - why call it a 'movement' by the way? It's just another group of assorted disgruntled people which has had zero impact on real events - no wonder they have been so ineffectual.
I would rank that concern very low on a list of grievances.
Lack of central government control over regional budgets, no credible plan for growth, no real debate about Spain's future in the EU let alone the eurozone...
These are the more salient issues and no party or groupuscule has produced a credible, feasible set of policies to address these concerns.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Hepa said:


> My friends do not strike


I see. They lie down and allow their tummies to be tickled when their employers s*** on them, do they?

Not striking when there is just cause to do so is no better than striking for no good reason.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I see. They lie down and allow their tummies to be tickled when their employers s*** on them, do they?
> 
> Not striking when there is just cause to do so is no better than striking for no good reason.


They do not go on strike because they do not believe in strikes or striking.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Hepa said:


> They do not go on strike because they do not believe in strikes or striking.


So how do they deal with any justifiable grievances they may have?
I'm no fan of strikes but they are a weapon of last resort.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> You are right about public sector workers...aka policemen, nurses, firemen and so on as well as people who sit behind desks many of them actually do a useful job too.
> But I think your comments about private sector workers are too unfocused. Many private sector workers in Spain and the UK earn very little and if on temporary contracts have zero job security.
> As for lavish expenses and free use of credit cards....that I doubt very much. In the UK there are quite rightly strict tax rules relating to company cars, use of expense accounts and so on and very few companies will allow free use of a company credit card.
> If politicians' remuneration is one of the main concerns of 15M - why call it a 'movement' by the way? It's just another group of assorted disgruntled people which has had zero impact on real events - no wonder they have been so ineffectual.
> ...


Of course, I can only speak from personal experience but I'm sure I'm not alone. I've had many a jolly night out on my colleagues' company credit cards, all charged to "travel expenses". I had free BUPA coverage, a subsidised canteen and an excellent final salary pension scheme. I also had access to a pool car for personal use at weekends.

Regardless of what you think of 15-M, the concerns about bloated expenses and enchufismo for politicos are real. Here's just one example. A _consejala_ in our town picks up €200 a month meal allowance, and she doesn't actually do anything! She fell out with the mayor because she failed to turn up to a meeting, but he can't sack her because then he'd lose his majority, so he's relieved her of her responsibilities. She also gets €44k a year (!) as "adviser" to the president of the PP in the Diputación de Cádiz.

El PP evita la ruptura de su grupo municipal en Alcalá de los...


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

leedsutdgem said:


> Los privilegios de los funcionarios, en revisin. SUR.es
> 
> Had no idea they got all this!


 Whilst some funcionarios are undoubtedly lying almost in a lap of luxury and are eligible for a seemingly never ending list of benefits with apparently no reasoning behind them, I'd like to take up smth that Alcalaina touched on. Funcionarios includes a vast range of occupations, not just people sitting on their butts ignoring the public that they are supposed to be serving. 
OH, as a teacher in FP receives an OK salary which he has to remind them about paying in full about twice a year (paying "bonus" for years worked, pay for whole month of September, not just the first 2 weeks etc). The benefits he gets? I can only think of free entry to museums and transport card paid.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> So how do they deal with any justifiable grievances they may have?
> I'm no fan of strikes but they are a weapon of last resort.


I do not know, for I am not an Air Traffic Controller.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Of course, I can only speak from personal experience but I'm sure I'm not alone. I've had many a jolly night out on my colleagues' company credit cards, all charged to "travel expenses". I had free BUPA coverage, a subsidised canteen and an excellent final salary pension scheme. I also had access to a pool car for personal use at weekends.
> 
> Regardless of what you think of 15-M, the concerns about bloated expenses and enchufismo for politicos are real. Here's just one example. A _consejala_ in our town picks up €200 a month meal allowance, and she doesn't actually do anything! She fell out with the mayor because she failed to turn up to a meeting, but he can't sack her because then he'd lose his majority, so he's relieved her of her responsibilities. She also gets €44k a year (!) as "adviser" to the president of the PP in the Diputación de Cádiz.
> 
> El PP evita la ruptura de su grupo municipal en Alcalá de los...


Gosh...you must have worked for a large and profitable company...
As a much smaller business, we kept a strict eye on what was spent on our company credit cards. The same with the mobile phones and vehicles our employees used. We couldn't afford not to.
I once had a business dinner at a posh restaurant on a company card and got moaned at by OH.

I must say I'm surprised and disgusted at what you say about what some Spanish politicians get up to. Our last PSOE Mayor was very incompetent but as honest as you could wish for. People shouldn't go into public service to make money...a somewhat naive sentiment, I guess.
In my decades in UK politics I never came across anyone who was so blatantly on the make. In those days, what you could claim as expenses was limited and rightly so. I was told I should claim reasonable expenses even if I didn't need to as those who couldn't afford to pay petrol etc.out of their own pockets shouldn't be made to feel awkward or greedy when claiming. Our expenses were published in the local press anyway. All politicians' expenses should be made public.
The most lavish expenses I've enjoyed came, oddly, from my Union work. Business Class travel and good hotels were the norm on the grounds that as professionals we should be on the same footing as our employers.
OH who is Scottish and puritan profoundly disagreed with that point of view.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

I've now come to the point where my opinion of all political parties and groupings is unprintable.

Ideas I would neverbefore have entertained for a second are now lodging in my head.
Like: the EU with its free movement of people, goods and money has impoverished ordinary working people, dislocated communities through mass migration, deprived poorer countries of many of their best and brightest people, caused a great fracturing of social cohesion, enabled governments and individuals to pile up unsustainable debt.....and has served merely to make those already wealthy even wealthier.
An evil by=product of all this has been the terrifyingly rapid growth of far-right groups in France, Holland, Austria, Greece, Scandinavia, the UK....and the people supporting these movements aren't racists or fascists, they're just ordinary working people fearful for their jobs, their public services and their children's futures.

A great crime has been committed on the people of Europe.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Incidentally, whilst on the topic of shocking things....

Did anyone read the story in the Mail today about David Cameron's ex-girlfriend becoming a nun and joining a convent?

Can't say I'm surprised. Close contact with any Tory politician would drive any sane woman to a nunnery.
Just reading about them tempts me to retreat to one myself, except I'd miss OH and Azor.

Well, I've vented enough spleen and bile about the state of the world for one day. It's raining, it's cold so I'm off to my bed with George Orwell, so to speak.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Well, I've vented enough spleen and bile about the state of the world for one day. It's raining, it's cold so I'm off to my bed with George Orwell, so to speak.


1984 or the political one Animal Farm


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I've now come to the point where my opinion of all political parties and groupings is unprintable.
> 
> Ideas I would neverbefore have entertained for a second are now lodging in my head.
> Like: the EU with its free movement of people, goods and money has impoverished ordinary working people, dislocated communities through mass migration, deprived poorer countries of many of their best and brightest people, caused a great fracturing of social cohesion, enabled governments and individuals to pile up unsustainable debt.....and has served merely to make those already wealthy even wealthier.
> ...


As I said long ago ; Mad Max here we come ! 

I learnt long ago with the first private employer that I worked for that it wasn't what you earnt but how little of it you spent ! He had it off to a fine art ! 
I picked up some bad habits. :lol:


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> 1984 or the political one Animal Farm



No, one of the four volumes of his complete essays, reviews and letters.
I do urge you to procure copies, Baldy, you would enjoy them very much.
I think you would too, Alca, as you'd find enough to disagree with, a good recommendation for any book. They are in pasperback, probably very cheap on amazon.

I own everything Orwell committed to print and many books about him. I don't agree with all his opinions, especially those expressed in 'Homage to Catalonia'.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Although this is about the UK I suspect that the same could be written about Spain: from The Independent


_What a wonderful time to be rich in Britain! Another 5 per cent has been added to the fortunes of our wealthiest people; last year, their combined worth surged by a fifth and, in 2010, a record 30 per cent was added to their wealth.


At a cool £414bn, the uber-rich are now better off than they were before Lehman Brothers went belly-up. No wonder, then, that market researchers at Ledbury Research project that spending on luxury goods such as expensive jewellery, flash cars and fine wine will soar from £6.5bn last year to £9.4bn by 2015. Recession? What recession?

Of course, it remains a very serious crisis for the real wealth-creators: and by that, I don't mean those who shuffle money around for a living, but the workers who keep our country ticking on a daily basis. Thousands of predominantly low-paid workers are being thrown out of their homes because of housing benefit cuts; nurses, teachers and bin-collectors face an average real-terms pay cut of 16 per cent by the time of the next election; and our poorest sixth-form students have had their educational maintenance allowance confiscated. JCB's owner Sir Anthony Bamford may have enjoyed a leap in wealth from £1,500m to £3,150m, but the average Briton faces the biggest slide in living standards since the early 1920s.

Boom time for the wealthy; crisis for everybody else. How are they getting away with it? The simple answer is because they can. Trade unions provide a means of securing for working people more of the wealth sloshing around. But they were battered in the 1980s, and their membership is nearly half of what it was in 1979. As their power has declined, the share of our national income going to the wealthiest 1 per cent has gone from 6 per cent in the late 1970s to over 14 per cent today.

It is said that clawing back wealth – for example, with higher taxes – is a recipe for ruin. There has been no satisfactory answer for why, then, Britain experienced its best ever sustained growth in the initial decades after World War Two, with no major recession, despite high taxes on the rich, strong unions and large-scale state intervention.

In the absence of major challenges to their position, the wealthiest can sit out a major economic crisis, leaving it to everybody else to pay for it. It is unjust – but it is not inevitable_


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## karunaji (May 3, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> A sense of proportion needed here, methinks.
> If I'm going to get hot under the collar about people's remuneration, it won't be over people who actually WORK for a living, whatever their occupation.
> Perhaps we should consider the case of the Duke of Westminster, owner of an enormous private Spanish estate, who is the proud owner also of an £8.5 billion - yes billion - fortune. All he did to gain possession of that was to be born in the right bed.
> Or the case of those on the Sunday Times 'Rich List' who, whilst most of us British plebs have seen our wages, investment incomes and pensions decrease in value, have managed to increase their wealth by over 5%.
> ...



Thank you for some much required sanity and jogging of memories regarding this matter!! :clap2:


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

karunaji said:


> Thank you for some much required sanity and jogging of memories regarding this matter!! :clap2:


It's odd, isn't it, that it seems to be accepted that to get 'ordinary' working people to work harder, you should pay them less, whereas to get more effort out of the already wealthy, we must pay them more.

I don't know about Spanish people as I've only been here a mere four years(although I have tentative opinions) but we Brits really are a servile masochistic bunch in that we seemingly accept and put up with such tendentious drivel....

Where is Robin Hood when you need him?? 
In his place we have robbin' corporations and financial institutions...


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

mrypg9 said:


> Gosh...you must have worked for a large and profitable company...
> 
> 
> In my decades in UK politics I never came across anyone who was so blatantly on the make. In those days, what you could claim as expenses was limited and rightly so. I was told I should claim reasonable expenses even if I didn't need to as those who couldn't afford to pay petrol etc.out of their own pockets shouldn't be made to feel awkward or greedy when claiming. Our expenses were published in the local press anyway. All politicians' expenses should be made public.


Really?? You never came across anyone at all?? I was a senior civil servant for far too many years and I was always aware of senior MPs being on the make and being rediculously proud of it to the point where they openly discussed, in the quieter parts of posh eateries, what they made last month and how they hoped to make more next month etc. In those days there seemed to be nothing anyone could do about it however angry they made us, but then when we were wined and dined we didn't complain too loudly. Even as a senior servant my salary was nowhere near as high as the DM would have the world believe and I had no expense account of course, so when someone offered me the chance to go to Le Gavroche (for example) I rarely declined. I am aware of my double standards but at least those opportunities got me to whre I am today. Spain. And those lavish meals opened my eyes to the world of food so I retrained as a chef. I'm rambling again. Too early for a brandy.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

thrax said:


> Really?? You never came across anyone at all?? I was a senior civil servant for far too many years and I was always aware of senior MPs being on the make and being rediculously proud of it to the point where they openly discussed, in the quieter parts of posh eateries, what they made last month and how they hoped to make more next month etc. In those days there seemed to be nothing anyone could do about it however angry they made us, but then when we were wined and dined we didn't complain too loudly. Even as a senior servant my salary was nowhere near as high as the DM would have the world believe and I had no expense account of course, so when someone offered me the chance to go to Le Gavroche (for example) I rarely declined. I am aware of my double standards but at least those opportunities got me to whre I am today. Spain. And those lavish meals opened my eyes to the world of food so I retrained as a chef. I'm rambling again. Too early for a brandy.


Maybe I was lucky but no, I never came across anyone who was 'on the make'.
That goes for people of all Parties.
I had experience of politics in a large London Borough and a semi-rural District Council. 
Of course there were allegations and rumours but on investigation they were without substance. I once fiercely defended a Tory Planning Chair who was falsely accused of corruption.
What I did find was incredible narrowmindedness, dogmatic stupidity and a tendency to view political combat as a fight to the death rather than a disagreement on principles and procedures.
Of course my political 'career' is now almost eighteen years past - after I was expelled from the Labour Party I turned to Trades Union activism - and I do think standards and attitudes have changed.
My tentative view is that this is a product of the amoral 'greed is good' philosophy of the 1980s. It could be seen as old-fashioned and negating one's perceived self-interest to observe rules and guidelines for proper conduct.
All I know is that I valued the reputation I had for being honest and straightforward even if this judgment might have been accompanied by several less flattering adjectives.


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## karunaji (May 3, 2010)

I LOVE the "We don't strike brigade"
To that I say - Grow Up!! Get with it regarding your own History. Read up on it from the 18th century onwards - Asa Briggs Social History of England is to be much recommended!! 
Read my lips----- no one has EVER given the Working people something for improving their lot without a "fight"- beit in the form of civil uprising, marches, or strikes


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

karunaji said:


> I LOVE the "We don't strike brigade"
> To that I say - Grow Up!! Get with it regarding your own History. Read up on it from the 18th century onwards - Asa Briggs Social History of England is to be much recommended!!
> Read my lips----- no one has EVER given the Working people something for improving their lot without a "fight"- beit in the form of civil uprising, marches, or strikes




Yes..Trades Unions.....the people who brought you a decent wage, the limited hours working week,paid holidays and other things we take for granted.
But remember that these things only became law through Parliamentary legislation with the good will and steadfast support of the majority of the people.
'Civil uprisings', strikes and protest marches could never alone have accomplished these things alone.
Which is why I am not in favour of inchoate 'movements' like 15M, the Occupy hordes and their ilk who accomplish nothing and many of whom will grow up to be capitalists themselves.
I am a strong believer in democracy via the ballot box. You make it work by making your voice count where it matters -yes, on the streets peacefully if needs be. But working within the major parties, arguing, changing minds,creating majorities -very important, that - getting the 'right' people into positions where they can make the changes we want to see.
Hard, unglamorous work which can't be accomplished overnight. But you have to take the people with you...if you don't, you are a mere ruler by force majeure representing a minority and you have no claim to popular support.
The ballot box form of democracy has its imperfections - but in the twenty-first century we can't sit round in collectives discussing how to run the economy.
Besides, anyone who believes humans are capable of 'perfection', whatever that means, is sorely mistaken...Sadly.


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