# Integration



## Guest (Oct 9, 2010)

One of the big problems for people emigrating to a different country and culture is the tendency to cling to " ones own". By that I mean that The English (or other nationalities) tend to gravitate to their own nationality. 
This is evident by the ghettos that are formed In Spain there are societies galore that cater for this craving. I am not saying that this is a bad thing but some integration is essential if a person is going to appreciate their new environment.
By mixing with the Spaniards at their cultural activities enables one to appreciate and become more accustomed to the language and culture of Spain.
In the beginning you may not be able to understand everything that is going on but that doesn't matter. The locals really appreciate your effort to join in with them. Frequent a few Spanish bars and restaurants on a reasonably regular basis and you will be drawn in to the way of life.

Just try, you will enjoy it and become to feel a part of the local community, even if your Spanish language is poor to start with. Believe me, it will soon improve.

Colt


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

Colt said:


> One of the big problems for people emigrating to a different country and culture is the tendency to cling to " ones own". By that I mean that The English (or other nationalities) tend to gravitate to their own nationality.
> This is evident by the ghettos that are formed In Spain there are societies galore that cater for this craving. I am not saying that this is a bad thing but some integration is essential if a person is going to appreciate their new environment.
> By mixing with the Spaniards at their cultural activities enables one to appreciate and become more accustomed to the language and culture of Spain.
> In the beginning you may not be able to understand everything that is going on but that doesn't matter. The locals really appreciate your effort to join in with them. Frequent a few Spanish bars and restaurants on a reasonably regular basis and you will be drawn in to the way of life.
> ...


Well .... we discussed this many times before and its a sort of no brainer for most of us on here

Our discussions have turned to how integrated you can actually get as an "outsider" and I seem to remember we decided it can only go so far because we will ... always .. be outsiders


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Stravinsky said:


> Well .... we discussed this many times before and its a sort of no brainer for most of us on here
> 
> Our discussions have turned to how integrated you can actually get as an "outsider" and I seem to remember we decided it can only go so far because we will ... always .. be outsiders


yes we have discussed it haven't we?


I always say that yes, I feel a part of the community - but I'll never be Spanish, so will I ever be totally 'integrated' - who knows??

my kids might be - some would say they are already more Spanish than English & would have more trouble fitting in in the UK than here, now




I'm sure, if they stay here, that their kids will be 'integrated'


hell, they might even be half Spanish


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Colt said:


> One of the big problems for people emigrating to a different country and culture is the tendency to cling to " ones own". By that I mean that The English (or other nationalities) tend to gravitate to their own nationality.
> This is evident by the ghettos that are formed In Spain there are societies galore that cater for this craving. I am not saying that this is a bad thing but some integration is essential if a person is going to appreciate their new environment.
> By mixing with the Spaniards at their cultural activities enables one to appreciate and become more accustomed to the language and culture of Spain.
> In the beginning you may not be able to understand everything that is going on but that doesn't matter. The locals really appreciate your effort to join in with them. Frequent a few Spanish bars and restaurants on a reasonably regular basis and you will be drawn in to the way of life.
> ...


Yes, I think it's a shame when people don't venture outside their own cultural comfort zones. 

I live in a village with very few ex-pats, and enjoy going into bars and having a chat about football or the latest news, even though I only understand a quarter of what they are saying because of the thick local accent. It is lovely when everyone says hello in the street, and the shopkeeper knows I want free range eggs and not the cheap granja ones!

But I can imagine it would be quite difficult for people living in urbanizaciones or areas where expats comprise the vast majority, and the only Spanish people they meet are on the supermarket checkout.

Also I think it is pretty well impossible to achieve "integration" unless you have a Spanish partner and/or work colleagues and hardly speak English; culture is to a great extent defined by language. I personally am content to have achieved a happy co-existence with my neighbours; I know I will always be different, but it isn't a problem.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> Yes, I think it's a shame when people don't venture outside their own cultural comfort zones.
> 
> I live in a village with very few ex-pats, and enjoy going into bars and having a chat about football or the latest news, even though I only understand a quarter of what they are saying because of the thick local accent. It is lovely when everyone says hello in the street, and the shopkeeper knows I want free range eggs and not the cheap granja ones!
> 
> ...


I speak Spanish everywhere I go - & half the time they reply in German!!!

or they know me & want to practice their English - or know me & chat with me in Spanish

it is perfectly possible however to live in Javea/Xabia & never really need to speak Spanish

a few arm gestures & the odd word will often be enough



but is language the main springboard/obstacle to 'integration'??

I really don't know

in a tiny town or even a big one where they don't get tourists or foreigners maybe


but I doubt it makes much difference here


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## xicoalc (Apr 20, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> Yes, I think it's a shame when people don't venture outside their own cultural comfort zones.
> 
> I live in a village with very few ex-pats, and enjoy going into bars and having a chat about football or the latest news, even though I only understand a quarter of what they are saying because of the thick local accent. It is lovely when everyone says hello in the street, and the shopkeeper knows I want free range eggs and not the cheap granja ones!
> 
> ...


Couldn't agree more. In our village there are a lot of expats and they have formed their own little "click". Of course I drink with them occasionally but I also love mingling with the locals. 

We live on an urbanizacion but farily rural, and due to fincial issues with the builder, building has stopped. Therefore we get frequent Policia Local & Guardia patrols just to keep an eye on things, it's nice when they wave as they pass. The local Policia man on his moped often stops at our gate to say hello to the dogs - even heard him saying "good boy" in English to them (sadly my dogs are not bilingual but we are working on it!). 

Since I have been seeing a Spaniard my integration has increased immensley, although as you have said, I miss loads of what they are saying because of the speed and my lack of vocab, but its nice because they will usually slow down to talk to me, try a bit of english, or in many cases, one of the group will give me a slower version if they are all talking about something in their group (to make me feel inclided) - Love it!


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## Guest (Oct 9, 2010)

Stravinsky said:


> Well .... we discussed this many times before and its a sort of no brainer for most of us on here
> 
> Our discussions have turned to how integrated you can actually get as an "outsider" and I seem to remember we decided it can only go so far because we will ... always .. be outsiders


This morning I attended The Annual October award ceremony of Javea. Two citizen awards are made each year. One for a voluntary group and one for an individual who has made a contribution of service to Javea. Since Franco outlawed all other forms of language in Spain except Castellano, local people continued to use their own language (Valenciano) in the home. Most of the old villagers can only speak it and not read or write it, but as it is the first language in the area, now schools teach in Valenciano. This ceremony is conducted in that language. My wife and I have been attending this ceremony for some time, first as visitors but nowadays as guests. The October award of 2008 was an historic one as, for the first time a foreigner, English ( my wife) hosted the event. 
I do not speak Valenciano myself apart from the odd few words but can converse(just) in Castelan. My wife agd I have been accepted by the villagers of Javea including the Mayor, by far the majority of "councillors" and local people. My wife more so than I. We do not consider ourselves 'outsiders'. I remember last year the Alcalde reffered to us as 'Xabianese', and I believe that is how lot of local people think of us. We have a few Englsih friends but by far the majority are Spanish

Colt


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Colt said:


> One of the big problems for people emigrating to a different country and culture is the tendency to cling to " ones own". By that I mean that The English (or other nationalities) tend to gravitate to their own nationality.
> This is evident by the ghettos that are formed In Spain there are societies galore that cater for this craving. I am not saying that this is a bad thing but some integration is essential if a person is going to appreciate their new environment.
> By mixing with the Spaniards at their cultural activities enables one to appreciate and become more accustomed to the language and culture of Spain.
> In the beginning you may not be able to understand everything that is going on but that doesn't matter. The locals really appreciate your effort to join in with them. Frequent a few Spanish bars and restaurants on a reasonably regular basis and you will be drawn in to the way of life.
> ...


Well I never...I wouldn't have thought of that in a month of Sundays.....
I'm sure it was unintentional but I for one found all that extremely patronising.
Some of us have lived in many European countries, others have married Spaniards and have Spanish families.
I don't choose my friends on the basis of nationality, there are few British immigrants where I live and I certainly wouldn't seek out people who tell me how to live in Spain or anywhere else for that matter....
It would be interesting to see your definition of 'integration'.
Eating paella, drinking in 'Spanish' bars and speaking Spanish doesn't mean 'integration'.
We are and will remain foreigners to Spanish people....because that's what we are.


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

Colt said:


> This morning I attended The Annual October award ceremony of Javea. Two citizen awards are made each year. One for a voluntary group and one for an individual who has made a contribution of service to Javea. Since Franco outlawed all other forms of language in Spain except Castellano, local people continued to use their own language (Valenciano) in the home. Most of the old villagers can only speak it and not read or write it, but as it is the first language in the area, now schools teach in Valenciano. This ceremony is conducted in that language. My wife and I have been attending this ceremony for some time, first as visitors but nowadays as guests. The October award of 2008 was an historic one as, for the first time a foreigner, English ( my wife) hosted the event.
> I do not speak Valenciano myself apart from the odd few words but can converse(just) in Castelan. My wife agd I have been accepted by the villagers of Javea including the Mayor, by far the majority of "councillors" and local people. My wife more so than I. We do not consider ourselves 'outsiders'. I remember last year the Alcalde reffered to us as 'Xabianese', and I believe that is how lot of local people think of us. We have a few Englsih friends but by far the majority are Spanish
> 
> Colt


Sorry ... I dont know your circumstances
But ..... I would say you THINK you are accepted. At the end of the day you aint Spanish. As I've been told by Spanish people before, they will accept you and treat you well ... but you are very rarely integrated properly because you are foreign


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

mrypg9 said:


> Well I never...I wouldn't have thought of that in a month of Sundays.....
> I'm sure it was unintentional but I for one found all that extremely patronising.
> Some of us have lived in many European countries, others have married Spaniards and have Spanish families.
> I don't choose my friends on the basis of nationality, there are few British immigrants where I live and I certainly wouldn't seek out people who tell me how to live in Spain or anywhere else for that matter....
> ...


Spot on


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Colt said:


> My wife agd I have been accepted by the villagers of Javea including the Mayor, by far the majority of "councillors" and local people.
> 
> Colt


What on earth do you mean by 'accepted '?
Have they stopped throwing rocks at you or painting crosses on your door or exhibiting some other kind of hostile behaviour to the guiris?
Since we have arrived here a couple of years ago we have made many friends in our locality and never leave the house without chatting to some villager or other in Spanish, English or very occasionally French or German. That was the case -literally -from Day One of our arrival in Spain.
It's what normal people do to other normal people wherever you live - I found that in Canada, the Czech Republic and Poland as well as Spain.
Just be friendly and polite and YOURSELF. Making great efforts to 'integrate' (what ever that means) could well put people off. 
The Spanish people we know regard us as British people who live in Spain....because that's what we are.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Apart from Boss Lady, and another guy that lives on the far side of the island, maybe a Spanish Policeman that was born in Wolverhampton, there are no other English residents on the island.

Hardly anybody speaks English, last night I conversed with a young man from what was Spanish Sahara in castellano, today an electrician arrived he is of German origins we also conversed in castellano.

Here you have to integrate, or be lonely, speaking the language is a must. There are umpteen ex-pats here, but they are mainly from South America. Most of the locals now speak to us, there are some that do not. 

Our neighbours are Venezuelan, he is deaf so they shout a lot, however the whole family are very friendly towards us, probably because Venezuelans are always friendly.

We will always be referred to as the Germans, here all northern Europeans are German. I remember returning from a stay in England once and the lady owner of a bar asked me if it was cold in Germany, the place erupted in hoots of laughter when I told her that I did not know because I was English.

I socialise with people from Santander, Madrid, Cordoba, Aviles, Tenerife, Gran Canaria, La Palma and the local Herreños, in fact being a drunken old sod, I'll socialise with anybody, even with you


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> It's what normal people do to other normal people wherever you live - I found that in Canada, the Czech Republic and Poland as well as Spain.


Sadly, I have met lots of immigrants in Southeast England who weren't welcomed so warmly ...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Sadly, I have met lots of immigrants in Southeast England who weren't welcomed so warmly ...


I did say 'normal' people. Racists aren't normal, not in my book anyway.
But you have to distinguish between racists and people who are genuinely worried about the impact of huge numbers of immigrants on jobs and wages. 
It suits employers (in East Anglia to give one example ) to have immigrant workers, mainly from the former Communist bloc EU member states, who are willing to work all hours God sends for less than the Minimum Wage , who are non-unionised and know nothing of their rights.
It doesn't suit local people, especially school leavers and women, to find themselves excluded from any hopes of employment, however low-paid and unpleasant.
The unfortunate Mrs Gillian Duffy (I think that was her name) who was publicly branded a bigot by Gordon Brown and who happened to be a life-long trades unionist and Labour Party member-she was at the Labour Conference as a delegate - was merely expressing the fears of many white, black, brown whatever skin-hued British working people about job prospects and I think it is very dangerous to ignore or brush aside those fears.
It's not surprising when Spanish people also express similar fears. 
It's a basic human instinct to consider family/tribe whatever first and it's not necessarily racist to do so.


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## xicoalc (Apr 20, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I did say 'normal' people.
> But you have to distinguish between racists and people who are genuinely worried about the impact of huge numbers of immigrants on jobs and wages.
> 
> 
> ...


Well said!


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## Guest (Oct 9, 2010)

Stravinsky said:


> Spot on


I take both you points and have to say that I agree with much of what you say but by definition you imply that we can never be integrated. We will always be foreigners. I can remember when I was in the service I was friends with a coloured lad from South Africa. I never regarded him as a foreigner. I don't think that my friends Juan and Pepe regard me as a foreigner. I certainly don't regard them that way.

Isn't it all an attitude of mind, and I don't mean to be patronising, but so many people, of all nationalities, think of other people from other countries as foreigners automatically, and once again I mean by attitude, not literally. Maybe we should start thinking of them as people.

Colt


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

I regard myself as a foreigner, which is what I am and will always be, even if I obtain Spanish nationality, I will still be "The English, the foreigner" I am not offended by that, it is perfectly true.


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

Colt said:


> I take both you points and have to say that I agree with much of what you say but by definition you imply that we can never be integrated. We will always be foreigners. I can remember when I was in the service I was friends with a coloured lad from South Africa. I never regarded him as a foreigner. I don't think that my friends Juan and Pepe regard me as a foreigner. I certainly don't regard them that way.
> 
> Isn't it all an attitude of mind, and I don't mean to be patronising, but so many people, of all nationalities, think of other people from other countries as foreigners automatically, and once again I mean by attitude, not literally. Maybe we should start thinking of them as people.
> 
> Colt


I do think of them as people, what makes you think I don't.
However ... yes I am saying we will never be integrated fully, whatever we might think

I was full of wonderful ideas when I came here. I proudly said I wont go in English bars, only Spanish restaurants etc etc ... I'll immerse myself in culture ... get to know the locals. In reality though it just didn't (doesn't) work that way. However hard you try, you know that when it comes down to it there will be a choice made, and it will be with their fellow countrymen


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Stravinsky said:


> I do think of them as people, what makes you think I don't.
> However ... yes I am saying we will never be integrated fully, whatever we might think
> 
> I was full of wonderful ideas when I came here. I proudly said I wont go in English bars, only Spanish restaurants etc etc ... I'll immerse myself in culture ... get to know the locals. In reality though it just didn't (doesn't) work that way. *However hard you try, you know that when it comes down to it there will be a choice made, and it will be with their fellow countrymen*


I have to disagree with the bold bit. I think a lot depends on the individual and those who are his friends, I rate some of my none English friends way above my so called fellow countrymen.


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## Guest (Oct 9, 2010)

Even though in a year I'll be married to a Spanish man, and even though in the future I'll (likely) have little half-Spanish, half-American children, I'll still be an outsider. Why? In a land full of _morenas,_ this _guiri_ sticks out. 

People in this city have, for the most part, stopped staring. However, whenever I'm in a new spot I'm often asked: "How long have you been here? Your Spanish is great!" Although I had hoped that one day I'd fit in, I now know I'm up for a life of sticking out. 

Oh well.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Colt said:


> I take both you points and have to say that I agree with much of what you say but by definition you imply that we can never be integrated. We will always be foreigners. I can remember when I was in the service I was friends with a coloured lad from South Africa. I never regarded him as a foreigner. I don't think that my friends Juan and Pepe regard me as a foreigner. I certainly don't regard them that way.
> 
> Isn't it all an attitude of mind, and I don't mean to be patronising, but so many people, of all nationalities, think of other people from other countries as foreigners automatically, and once again I mean by attitude, not literally. Maybe we should start thinking of them as people.
> 
> Colt


they are just people

we are just people


I & my children all have friends of various nationalities - & we all converse in Spanish as that is our common language

after all we are in Spain

if we were in France we'd all speak French

in Italy, Italian



if being a contributing member of the community means 'integrated' then we are


we don't have to be friends with the mayor though

& of course Juan & Pepe think of you as foreign - part of the community & perhaps 'integrated'- but still foreign


because you are!


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

halydia said:


> Even though in a year I'll be married to a Spanish man, and even though in the future I'll (likely) have little half-Spanish, half-American children, I'll still be an outsider. Why? In a land full of _morenas,_ this _guiri_ sticks out.
> 
> People in this city have, for the most part, stopped staring. However, whenever I'm in a new spot I'm often asked: "How long have you been here? Your Spanish is great!" Although I had hoped that one day I'd fit in, I now know I'm up for a life of sticking out.
> 
> Oh well.


I think you are being too harsh on yourself, once the people get to know you, you then become part of the society, for then you are integrating. However you will always be different because you are from the other side of the Atlantic. The people however are complimenting you, would you want it any other way?

Me, an English individual, but by choice I live in the Canary Islands the greater part of my friends are Spanish Canary Islanders, That is how it is and I like it just that way.

Hepa


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

Hepa said:


> I have to disagree with the bold bit. I think a lot depends on the individual and those who are his friends, I rate some of my none English friends way above my so called fellow countrymen.


I'm talking about the way Spaniards view it, not extending it to Brits point of view


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Stravinsky said:


> I'm talking about the way Spaniards view it, not extending it to Brits point of view


Shugger, I didn't realise that


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Colt said:


> I take both you points and have to say that I agree with much of what you say but by definition you imply that we can never be integrated. We will always be foreigners. I can remember when I was in the service I was friends with a *coloured lad from South Africa*. I never regarded him as a foreigner. I don't think that my friends Juan and Pepe regard me as a foreigner. I certainly don't regard them that way.
> 
> Isn't it all an attitude of mind, and I don't mean to be patronising, but so many people, of all nationalities, think of other people from other countries as foreigners automatically, and once again I mean by attitude, not literally. Maybe we should start thinking of them as people.
> 
> Colt


Now....did you mean a 'black' lad or a 'coloured' lad....because there were two distinct racial classifications in South Africa in those days and if you weren't aware of the difference then I'm sorry but you were definitely *not *integrated.
Well, if it makes you happy to think that Spanish people perceive you as 'Spanish', there's no harm in that.
But neither is there harm in facing up to the fact that you are not and never will be Spanish, that you are British and that is how you will always be to Spanish people. A guiri. And what's wrtong with that? Why try to become what by definition you cannot ever be? Why not just enjoy living in Spain? Are you going to learn flamenco, wear a sombrero, take up bull-fighting in your quest to be 'integrated?
You are a British immigrant living in Spain. Period, as they say in the US of A.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

I never "integrated" in the UK?? I had friends and work etc, maybe I dont understand the word integrate, but maybe I lived in a town where there wasnt really a community as such and its the same in Spain. People work, shop, play, go to bars - are any of us (Spanish or other) integrating?? I have friends, mainly Brits cos I can chat to them, I have a couple of Spanish friends. But like Mary says, we can never be "spanish", so we have to be foreigners here. The art is to be able to live alongside everyone

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

jojo said:


> But like Mary says, we can never be "spanish", so we have to be foreigners here. The art is to be able to live alongside everyone
> 
> Jo xxx


I like that last sentence Jo, I like it very much!

I think integration is a much discussed topic and I can understand that after a few years expats may feel a certain pride at having Spanish friends and being included in local activities. But after a few more years I think most of us realise that, as a few people on here have stated, we are not Spanish and the "intergration" that we have achieved is based on that precisely. The idea is Mary and Malcolm are not Spanish, but/ and they're great people and we enjoy being with them. If a Spanish person asks "Who are Mary and Malcolm?" they are going to be described as the *English *couple.
It's not a bad situation to be in, but it might not be what you imagined...


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## Guest (Oct 9, 2010)

Hepa said:


> I think you are being too harsh on yourself, once the people get to know you, you then become part of the society, for then you are integrating. However you will always be different because you are from the other side of the Atlantic. The people however are complimenting you, would you want it any other way?
> 
> Me, an English individual, but by choice I live in the Canary Islands the greater part of my friends are Spanish Canary Islanders, That is how it is and I like it just that way.
> 
> Hepa


I think what I was trying to say is that I can be considered "integrated" here, but the second I step out of the city where I live and/or the city where I work, I'm "one of them" again. 

Like the other day... I was on the bus with a bunch of other assorted _guiris._ I had a chuckle when I overheard an older woman comment to her friend that we must be doing the _Camino_. Nice guess lady, but we're your _nieto's_ new English teachers. 

Educated guess on her part, I suppose.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

halydia said:


> Even though in a year I'll be married to a Spanish man, and even though in the future I'll (likely) have little half-Spanish, half-American children, I'll still be an outsider. Why? In a land full of _morenas,_ this _guiri_ sticks out.
> 
> People in this city have, for the most part, stopped staring. However, whenever I'm in a new spot I'm often asked: "How long have you been here? Your Spanish is great!" Although I had hoped that one day I'd fit in, I now know I'm up for a life of sticking out.
> 
> Oh well.


I think you're right halydia to a certain extent - you'll probably always stick out, but that doesn't mean that you don't fit in, if you see what I mean.
And that is pretty damned deep for a day with absolutely NO alcohol, so I hope you're impressed ladies and gentlemen.
Just going to get a Martini to put the situation straight


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## Guest (Oct 9, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I think you're right halydia to a certain extent - you'll probably always stick out, but that doesn't mean that you don't fit in, if you see what I mean.
> And that is pretty damned deep for a day with absolutely NO alcohol, so I hope you're impressed ladies and gentlemen.
> Just going to get a Martini to put the situation straight


Salud! :tea:


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Jo's last sentence sums it all up...we are British, French, Spanish men and women living alongside other people of all nationalities.
I'm British. My upbringing, culture and views on life have been shaped by Britain. I can never share the same experiences and culture that make a Spaniard a Spaniard. Frankly, I 'm happy with that. Vive les differences!
If 'integration' means living your usual daily life in Spain, we are all doing that in our own way.
I don't want to live in a British ghetto or drink in British pubs here in Spain but there are those who do and since that's not a crime, let them live their lives as they choose.
People who like to tell other people how to dress, behave, where to eat, shop and live are rather presumptuous, to say the least.
I sometimes suspect that these self-appointed lifestyle gurus have had scant experience of 'abroad' and are rather overcome by it all....Spanish people probably find their frantic efforts to 'go native' rather odd and amusing.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> :
> Just going to get a Martini to put the situation straight


How do you mix your Martinis?
I'd like to make one like they do in those American films of the fifties....with olive, swizzle stick, cherry...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Colt said:


> Isn't it all an attitude of mind, and I don't mean to be patronising, but so many people, of all nationalities, think of other people from other countries as foreigners automatically, and once again I mean by attitude, not literally. Maybe we should start thinking of them as people.
> 
> Colt


Well, you may not mean to be patronising but that's how you come over. Your 'tone' is wrong. Too many platitudes.
You really don't need to tell people on this forum to start thinking of foreigners as 'people'. We have all been doing this without feeling the need to preach to others to do something that comes as naturally to them as breathing.
But there is one important fact in all this: you are British. Your friends Juan and Pepe are Spanish. So you are FOREIGNERS to each other If in doubt, consult your dictionary.
You seem to be implying that there is something wrong in being a foreigner. It's a description, that's all. Why does the word bother you so much?
I think you have a deep-seated problem of which you are unaware


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

One of the reasons I like living in Spain is because it is a foreign country with lots of foreign people and lots of foreign things (oops sorry it's me that's the foreigner). I've been here ten years now and it's all becoming a bit familiar - it's losing its 'foreign-ness'.

I might move on soon, I don't want to become too integrated...


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Jo's last sentence sums it all up...we are British, French, Spanish men and women living alongside other people of all nationalities.
> I'm British. My upbringing, culture and views on life have been shaped by Britain. I can never share the same experiences and culture that make a Spaniard a Spaniard. Frankly, I 'm happy with that. Vive les differences!
> If 'integration' means living your usual daily life in Spain, we are all doing that in our own way.
> I don't want to live in a British ghetto or drink in British pubs here in Spain but there are those who do and since that's not a crime, let them live their lives as they choose.
> ...


Thank you Mary - I think you have summed up things perfectly. I know that my colouring will always make me stand out as northern European in a Spanish crowd, so what? My wife being Colombian doesn't stand out until she opens her mouth and the locals are then puzzled because although her Spanish is perfect (perhaps too perfect) it is her accent that is different wherever she goes and in which ever language she is speaking (English, Spanish and French). 

Although we don't set out to avoid Brits, we don't mix with some, especially the bar-proppers because we aren't that type however we do have some Brit friends, French, American, etc. 

We do feel that, to some extent, we belong here, we feel at home and we are treated by the locals as belonging to their village although we know that we will never ever be classed as natives and will always be los Ingleses even though my wife and suegra aren't.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

jojo said:


> I never "integrated" in the UK?? I had friends and work etc, maybe I dont understand the word integrate, but maybe I lived in a town where there wasnt really a community as such and its the same in Spain. People work, shop, play, go to bars - are any of us (Spanish or other) integrating?? I have friends, mainly Brits cos I can chat to them, I have a couple of Spanish friends. But like Mary says, we can never be "spanish", so we have to be foreigners here. The art is to be able to live alongside everyone
> 
> Jo xxx


:clap2::clap2::clap2:
Spot on Jo.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I did say 'normal' people. Racists aren't normal, not in my book anyway.


Interesting - when I made the comment that many people in SE England weren't welcoming to foreigners I was actually thinking of Western Europeans!

I grew up in Canterbury and then lived in Oxford, both places receive a lot foreign visitors, tourists and language students. I worked in bars where these visitors were ridiculed and even insulted by the (English) staff for not realising that you had to go to the bar and pay for your drink in advance. I've heard people complaining that they "clutter up the pavements" because they don't know how to queue for buses. In Oxford, teenage language students are warned not to walk round town alone at night in case they are beaten up; sadly this is a frequent occurrence, for no other reason than that they were foreigners.

You can't really call this racism, because we are all the same race; it is pure ignorance and intolerance, based some sort of misplaced superiority complex that the English have (even towards the Scots, Welsh and Irish), and in complete contrast to the attitude I've encountered towards "foreigners" in Spain.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

jimenato said:


> One of the reasons I like living in Spain is because it is a foreign country with lots of foreign people and lots of foreign things (oops sorry it's me that's the foreigner). I've been here ten years now and it's all becoming a bit familiar - it's losing its 'foreign-ness'.
> 
> I might move on soon, I don't want to become too integrated...


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Not too soon I hope!


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## xicoalc (Apr 20, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> Interesting - when I made the comment that many people in SE England weren't welcoming to foreigners I was actually thinking of Western Europeans!
> 
> I grew up in Canterbury and then lived in Oxford, both places receive a lot foreign visitors, tourists and language students. I worked in bars where these visitors were ridiculed and even insulted by the (English) staff for not realising that you had to go to the bar and pay for your drink in advance. I've heard people complaining that they "clutter up the pavements" because they don't know how to queue for buses. In Oxford, teenage language students are warned not to walk round town alone at night in case they are beaten up; sadly this is a frequent occurrence, for no other reason than that they were foreigners.
> 
> You can't really call this racism, because we are all the same race; it is pure ignorance and intolerance, based some sort of misplaced superiority complex that the English have (even towards the Scots, Welsh and Irish), and in complete contrast to the attitude I've encountered towards "foreigners" in Spain.


You have an excellent point. My OH loves the UK and spent almost a year living in London. His English is reasonably good (better than my Spanish) but obviously his English is spoken with a Spanish accent so sometimes some words are slightly prenounced wrong and he is always text book with his manners in asking for things etc (which I admit sometimes sounds wrong when you are not used to manners!)

He has told me of his experiences if some staff (waiters) etc being ignorant in London. Particularly (and somewhat surprisingly) the younger staff in places such as Macdonalds who "could not understand" (yeah right) him asking for Ketchup, and one time when he said a barman found it funny that he said "Please may I have" (obviously polite manners that they are not used to!). If I was their manager I would sack the little scrotes there and then (I am sure we all feel that in general, Spanish waiters really do appreciate it when you try, and I am sure we ALL prenounce things wrong, but they smile politely, and take the order, some even help you to lean how to say it right).

He also said that staff sometimes seemed unwilling to Speak slowly for him,again particularly the young staff in places such as fast food chains and CD shops etc.

The worst part is that HE DIDN'T SEEM TO MIND because he said he was the foreigner in their country!!! Crikey, over here its an effort for many brits to muster up "hola" despite being foreigners. 

My Asesoria is taking his wife for an anniversary trip to London at the end of the year, and he has joined English classes to polish up before the trip! 

Maybe if we brits made more of an effort we would "integrate" better!!!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

This has turned out to be a really interesting thread; even though we have discussed integration before, it seems there is always something new to say!

I've been thinking  about this and have concluded that I feel far more like an alien in the company of what I will call the "English upper middle class" than I do with my unpretentious and down-to-earth Spanish neighbours here. 

I feel more comfortable with people who spend hours scrubbing their front steps every morning so they can chat with passers-by than people who pay someone else to clean their house and then join an expensive health club because they aren't getting enough exercise.

Class is hard to define and means different things to different people, but it has just as strong an effect on your values and culture as where you were born or what colour your skin is.


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## xicoalc (Apr 20, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> This has turned out to be a really interesting thread; even though we have discussed integration before, it seems there is always something new to say!
> 
> I've been thinking  about this and have concluded that I feel far more like an alien in the company of what I will call the "English upper middle class" than I do with my unpretentious and down-to-earth Spanish neighbours here.
> 
> ...


:clap2::clap2:


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Class should be called something else cos there's always a stigma or inferiority/superiority linked to it and really its nowt to do with any of that. Its about finding likeminded people you feel comfortable with, so therefore I dont care about class one way or the other, maybe cos I had working class parents, who came from lowly backgrounds, but did well. I was an only child and sent to private schools and so I've always felt at ease with any "class" group - altho I dont like to hang around with scroungers, dishonest or loud agressive people. It doesnt matter what class or nationality

Jo xxx


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

jojo said:


> Class should be called something else cos there's always a stigma or inferiority/superiority linked to it and really its nowt to do with any of that. Its about finding likeminded people you feel comfortable with, so therefore I dont care about class one way or the other, maybe cos I had working class parents, who came from lowly backgrounds, but did well. I was an only child and sent to private schools and so I've always felt at ease with any "class" group - altho I dont like to hang around with scroungers, dishonest or loud agressive people. It doesnt matter what class or nationality
> 
> Jo xxx


Yes, it's a shame that the word has become much used and abused because all it originally meant is where you fit in the economic hierarchy. 

The "working class" meant just that - you had to work for a living or you could not survive. The "ruling class" lived on inherited wealth (the aristocracy), on rental income from property, or profit from factories.

Then somebody invented the term "middle class" and that can mean whatever you want it to! But generally it just means people who own property but still have to work to survive.

Sociology lesson over ...


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

The term guiris isn't used here, however the Canarian people refer to those from the Iberian peninsular as godos, refering to the Visigoth tribes of northern Spain


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Alcalaina said:


> Yes, it's a shame that the word has become much used and abused because all it originally meant is where you fit in the economic hierarchy.
> 
> The "working class" meant just that - you had to work for a living or you could not survive. The "ruling class" lived on inherited wealth (the aristocracy), on rental income from property, or profit from factories.
> 
> ...


All that is well and good, its just that, in general, the "lower classes" have heavy chips on their shoulders and the "upper classes" have a superiority complex. Thats the problem with the class system! Altho you can never really lose the stereotypes or identities (and nor should we). Everyone needs to get over it and just be happy where with their lot IMO!

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina;382167.
Class is hard to define and means different things to different people said:


> That is very true although becoming less so in the UK at least as it would be difficult in the twenty-first century to identify the kind of urban or rural working-class I grew up in.
> I suppose through education and income I would be seen as 'middle-class' (as I'm sure would you) but the values I inherited from my widowed charlady mum have remained with me. She believed in independence, not taking handouts, the dignity of earning your living (although she earned hers on her kness scrubbing the floors of the local Post Office HQ ) and what she called 'paying your way'. Hire purchase was seen as an invention of the devil.What we couldn't pay for we didn't have. Being 'respectable' was of paramount importance and keeping the brass door knocker polished and doorstep and window sills whitened was the badge of respectability.
> But when I was five my mother took me to the public library and enrolled me. Commercialism was despised and education valued although my mother left school at fourteen and my grandmother with whom we lived when my dad died when I was a toddler left her village school at twelve.
> Both incidentally were literate and numerate to a degree many people today will never attain.
> ...


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## Guest (Oct 10, 2010)

Although a member originally said (of this thread) that it had all been done before, you must admit that it had caused a great deal of discussion. I have been accused of being " patronising" 'Ignorant' and one or two other things., but at least I got some answers that I agree with. I am 81 years old, I served for 23 years in the RAF, I have lived in Germany, Cyprus, the USA and Canada, the far east for a few months only and have now put down roots in what I consider is the best country I have lived in ( so far) Last night My wife and I went out with friends to a watch a local group I asked them, 'do you consider us 'foreigners' or 'outsiders' Monica and Juan both laughed, Monica said , 'don't be silly you are our friends'. That's all I need!!!


Colt


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Colt said:


> 'don't be silly you are our friends'. That's all I need!!!
> 
> 
> Colt


Thats all that matters! and a great thread!

Jo xxx


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

Colt said:


> AI asked them, 'do you consider us 'foreigners' or 'outsiders' Monica and Juan both laughed, Monica said , 'don't be silly you are our friends'. That's all I need!!!
> 
> 
> Colt


Thats good

But dont forget, being foreigners / outsiders / integrated is going to be a little different to being friends


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

jojo said:


> All that is well and good, its just that, in general, the "lower classes" have heavy chips on their shoulders and the "upper classes" have a superiority complex. Thats the problem with the class system! Altho you can never really lose the stereotypes or identities (and nor should we). Everyone needs to get over it and just be happy where with their lot IMO!
> 
> Jo xxx


Well, I deliberately didn't say "upper" or "lower" because that implies that one is better than the other. You and I are working class (according to the definition in my previous post) and we certainly don't have chips on our shoulders do we?

If you look at class as an economic concept rather than a cultural one, and find another word to describe those stereotypes, it makes more sense. 

These days the "ruling class" aren't the aristocracy any more, they are the anonymous financial speculators and heads of multinational corporations whose decisions and actions have a huge effect on the lives of the working class (us). Whether we like it or not, they aren't going away.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Colt said:


> I asked them, 'do you consider us 'foreigners' or 'outsiders' Monica and Juan both laughed, Monica said , 'don't be silly you are our friends'. That's all I need!!!
> 
> 
> Colt



Well, be happy then, if that's all it takes.. 
But I'm still puzzled as to why it should matter to British immigrants what Spanish people think of them. No offence intended but it may be because of your age. Younger people don't think in terms of nationalities and borders. The world is open to them. And being in the forces is quite different from living abroad as a civilian. I had many uncles who had spent time abroad in the forces and they had a very narrow and inexperienced view of the countries they had lived in.
I wouldn't consider asking my Spanish friends if they think I'm a foreigner as I consider it a stupid question but if I did I think the reply would be 'Yes, my friend'.
And by the way, the words 'foreigner' and 'outsider' have different connotations.


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## Guest (Oct 10, 2010)

There's always someone, isn''t there.? In Germany I lived with a German family, in Cyprus with a Turkish family (before tthe partition) and I have not got a narrow view of the world. I am well aware of the open minded attitude of the young people of today just as I am aware of the bigoted and often hostile attitude of the older British to any one who is not British. It is Festa time in Valencia right now and a lot of rhe supermarkets are closed. Comment by a British visitor two days ago, ''This bloody country is always closed. you can't shop in the afternoons and they just shut up shop whenever they want, talk about third world'
I would love to say that this is an isolated case. The man in question must have been in his thirties, but I've heard sp many similar comments in my 13 years here. I venture to say that you probably have too. 

You certainly can't please people all the time, in some cases, never.

Colt


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Colt said:


> There's always someone, isn''t there.? In Germany I lived with a German family, in Cyprus with a Turkish family (before tthe partition) and I have not got a narrow view of the world. I am well aware of the open minded attitude of the young people of today just as I am aware of the bigoted and often hostile attitude of the older British to any one who is not British. It is Festa time in Valencia right now and a lot of rhe supermarkets are closed. Comment by a British visitor two days ago, ''This bloody country is always closed. you can't shop in the afternoons and they just shut up shop whenever they want, talk about third world'
> I would love to say that this is an isolated case. The man in question must have been in his thirties, but I've heard sp many similar comments in my 13 years here. I venture to say that you probably have too.
> 
> You certainly can't please people all the time, in some cases, never.
> ...


A fool, A fool, there is always one sometimes two, the complete Twit


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

> I don't like the term "chav underclass", that has a strong whiff of snobbery. There but for the grace of ... well, not God, but the postwar Labour governments which made it possible for working class kids like me to get a good education and go on to university.


Heck, dont you let chavs here you say that! They are very proud of the fact that they are considered chavs and the underclasses!!! 

Jo xxxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Colt said:


> There's always someone, isn''t there.? In Germany I lived with a German family, in Cyprus with a Turkish family (before tthe partition) and I have not got a narrow view of the world. I am well aware of the open minded attitude of the young people of today just as I am aware of the bigoted and often hostile attitude of the older British to any one who is not British. It is Festa time in Valencia right now and a lot of rhe supermarkets are closed. Comment by a British visitor two days ago, ''This bloody country is always closed. you can't shop in the afternoons and they just shut up shop whenever they want, talk about third world'
> I would love to say that this is an isolated case. The man in question must have been in his thirties, but I've heard sp many similar comments in my 13 years here. I venture to say that you probably have too.
> 
> You certainly can't please people all the time, in some cases, never.
> ...


I don't think older British people are any more bigoted than younger people and I certainly didn't imply that in my post. Whether you are open-minded or not has little to do with age. What has changed over the last two decades is the comparative cheapness of travel and the disappearance of borders. Going to Amsterdam or Barcelona for the weekend is no big deal....it's the same as going to Blackpool or Brighton for most people of all ages.
I think of myself as European as I suspect do most people on this forum. But my roots and culture are English and I neither can nor want to change that.
I'm certainly not ashamed of it.
As someone said earlier, one of the pleasant things about living overseas is the sheer _*foreignness*_ of it all. I don't want to see a bland, featureless world where we are all mixed in some great melting pot and lose our individuality, a large part of which stems from our national origins.
British people in Spain stand out from the indigenous people not only, as someone said, because of our skin colour, but because of an indefinite quality that differentiates us from those of different national origins.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Heck, dont you let chavs here you say that! They are very proud of the fact that they are considered chavs and the underclasses!!!
> 
> Jo xxxx


And are a totally different beast from the 'respectable' working-classes I grew up a part of.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> And are a totally different beast from the 'respectable' working-classes I grew up a part of.


I think that is a very good point - when I was young and where we lived, most working class considered themselves "respectable" (even if there was the odd skeleton in the cupboard or bit of dust under the bed) but they were proud that they had got to where they were by their own sheer hard work. They weren't born with golden spoons in their mouths or with Great Aunt Ada's inheritance to enable them to be a "bit posh". Crime was virtually non-existent (that sort of thing was the prerogative of the spivs in London) and everyone not only respected each other, they helped those who were less fortunate. The welfare state did not exist. Doctors used to run a form of sick club (you paid sixpence a week to cover the family and the Doctor would treat you for free instead of charging you for each visit). There were other workmen's sick clubs into which, again, you paid so much per week and if you couldn't work because you were ill, you "went on the sick [club]" and you would get a small allowance for a short while until you could go back to work. Many of you may have had dealings in UK with HSA (Hospital Savings Association) into which, again, you paid so much per week and if you had to go into hospital or needed glasses or dental work, they would pay out something towards the cost. Bear in mind that the average wage in those days was only £2 - 3 per week.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> I think that is a very good point - when I was young and where we lived, most working class considered themselves "respectable" (even if there was the odd skeleton in the cupboard or bit of dust under the bed) but they were proud that they had got to where they were by their own sheer hard work. They weren't born with golden spoons in their mouths or with Great Aunt Ada's inheritance to enable them to be a "bit posh". Crime was virtually non-existent (that sort of thing was the prerogative of the spivs in London) and everyone not only respected each other, they helped those who were less fortunate. The welfare state did not exist. Doctors used to run a form of sick club (you paid sixpence a week to cover the family and the Doctor would treat you for free instead of charging you for each visit). There were other workmen's sick clubs into which, again, you paid so much per week and if you couldn't work because you were ill, you "went on the sick [club]" and you would get a small allowance for a short while until you could go back to work. Many of you may have had dealings in UK with HSA (Hospital Savings Association) into which, again, you paid so much per week and if you had to go into hospital or needed glasses or dental work, they would pay out something towards the cost. Bear in mind that the average wage in those days was only £2 - 3 per week.


We were poor but we were honest....as the song goes
Now...I don't believe you're as old as that post makes you sound but I remember hearing things like that from my old gran.
Some of my fondest childhood memories are having to be 'inspected' and sniffed by my mum before I was allowed out, wearing horrible shapeless things various relatives knitted for me -they were usually too big as I was expected to 'grow into them', not being allowed to 'run the streets' (I was only allowed to go to play in friends' houses or gardens and had to say where I was going), and being sent on my bike to pay the butcher a penny- halfpenny as my gran hadn't had enough change when she went to buy the day's meat ten minutes before and 'we don't owe anyone anything'.
I feel sorry for today's kids as they have so much but are often lacking in the more important things...parents who give a good example and teach you how to live 'the right way'.
My widowed mother would never have considered asking for welfare handouts. She went to work as I said before, scrubbing floors. 
I didn't have many material things when I was growing up but my childhood was safe and happy.
Oh, and we didn't have dust under the beds...but my gran kept a black tin money box with her life savings in it under hers.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> We were poor but we were honest....as the song goes
> Now...I don't believe you're as old as that post makes you sound but I remember hearing things like that from my old gran.
> Some of my fondest childhood memories are having to be 'inspected' and sniffed by my mum before I was allowed out, wearing horrible shapeless things various relatives knitted for me -they were usually too big as I was expected to 'grow into them', not being allowed to 'run the streets' (I was only allowed to go to play in friends' houses or gardens and had to say where I was going), and being sent on my bike to pay the butcher a penny- halfpenny as my gran hadn't had enough change when she went to buy the day's meat ten minutes before and 'we don't owe anyone anything'.
> I feel sorry for today's kids as they have so much but are often lacking in the more important things...parents who give a good example and teach you how to live 'the right way'.
> ...


Mary, I was born 1941 (and yes, I have my wartime memories and my "war wound") and that was what life was like where I lived. I wasn't allowed to play out in the street. The "dust under the bed" comment was regarding family secrets that other people shouldn't know about, just like the real thing!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> Mary, I was born 1941 (and yes, I have my wartime memories and my "war wound") and that was what life was like where I lived. I wasn't allowed to play out in the street. The "dust under the bed" comment was regarding family secrets that other people shouldn't know about, just like the real thing!


Well, your posts are 'youthful', if you know what I mean
I can only remember one 'family secret'....when I was about six, my Uncle Alf left Auntie Freda and ran off with a woman...to London!!
I'm not sure what was the most shocking part of it, committing adultery or going to London.
I remember a family conference was held to discuss this dreadful event: my gran, being the oldest of nine children, was very much the head of her family and when anything important happened she summoned her brothers and sisters to discuss it.
Everything was said in hushed tones and there were loads of sidelong glances at innocent little Mary who was playing with wooden bricks or something similar.
Of course I didn't understand anything.
Nowadays a six-year-old would be asked for their advice


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## xicoalc (Apr 20, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I'm not sure what was the most shocking part of it, committing adultery or going to London.


 :laugh:



mrypg9 said:


> Nowadays a six-year-old would be asked for their advice


  How very true!!! and before you know it the family secret would be all over facebook which has replaced good old fashioned communication (that's rich I guess coming from someone who is writing on an internet forum as we speak!)


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