# warning - this thread contains bad news about Spain



## Pesky Wesky

If you don't want to know about the dire situation Spain is in at the moment, DON'T read any further!

According to the OECD (Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development)

_España tardará 15 años en reducir el paro a tasas previas a la crisis. No será hasta 2026 cuando la economía española verá caer el paro hasta el 8,9%, cerca ya del 8,6% que registraba al cierre de 2007, según las nuevas previsiones hechas públicas ayer por la Organización para la Cooperación y el Desarrollo Económico (OCDE), que empeora los pronósticos que hizo en noviembre. La institución que dirige Ángel Gurría reiteró que para mejorar esa situación es necesario modificar la negociación colectiva y reducir las indemnizaciones por despido_

_*Spain will take 15 years to reduce unemployment to pre-crisis levels,* according to the OECD
Spain will take 15 years to reduce unemployment to pre-crisis rate. It will not be until 2026 when the Spanish economy will see unemployment fall to 8.9%, close and from 8.6% recorded at the end of 2007, according to new projections released yesterday by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), which worsens the forecast made ​​in November. The institution he leads Angel Gurria reiterated that to improve this situation is necessary to amend the collective bargaining and reduce redundancy._

OK, somebody, somewhere will get a job, but will it be Mr. Smith from the UK who speaks conversational Spanish (¿Dónde está la farmacia?), whose qualifications are not recognised here, whose family is all back in the UK and who doesn't know the town, nor the city nor the country, OR will the job go to Pepe Pérez, who is bilingual, knows the place and who'll work from 8:00 to 20:00 without batting an eyelid???

My objective is NOT to spread bad news, put people off, kill the dream, crow over those who are not here.

I just think people in the UK have little idea of what's happening in Spain and the more info they have the better. The general idea is if you need to work to finance your life in Spain you need a sure job offer before you make the move, or a UK job you can do from home over the internet, or somebody who works off shore, or you are single footloose and fancy free and can go back and pickup your life in the UK if things don't work out here ...

Good luck to those who decide to come


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## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> If you don't want to know about the dire situation Spain is in at the moment, DON'T read any further!
> 
> According to the OECD (Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development)
> 
> _España tardará 15 años en reducir el paro a tasas previas a la crisis. No será hasta 2026 cuando la economía española verá caer el paro hasta el 8,9%, cerca ya del 8,6% que registraba al cierre de 2007, según las nuevas previsiones hechas públicas ayer por la Organización para la Cooperación y el Desarrollo Económico (OCDE), que empeora los pronósticos que hizo en noviembre. La institución que dirige Ángel Gurría reiteró que para mejorar esa situación es necesario modificar la negociación colectiva y reducir las indemnizaciones por despido_
> 
> _*Spain will take 15 years to reduce unemployment to pre-crisis levels,* according to the OECD
> Spain will take 15 years to reduce unemployment to pre-crisis rate. It will not be until 2026 when the Spanish economy will see unemployment fall to 8.9%, close and from 8.6% recorded at the end of 2007, according to new projections released yesterday by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), which worsens the forecast made ​​in November. The institution he leads Angel Gurria reiterated that to improve this situation is necessary to amend the collective bargaining and reduce redundancy._
> 
> OK, somebody, somewhere will get a job, but will it be Mr. Smith from the UK who speaks conversational Spanish (¿Dónde está la farmacia?), whose qualifications are not recognised here, whose family is all back in the UK and who doesn't know the town, nor the city nor the country, OR will the job go to Pepe Pérez, who is bilingual, knows the place and who'll work from 8:00 to 20:00 without batting an eyelid???
> 
> My objective is NOT to spread bad news, put people off, kill the dream, crow over those who are not here.
> 
> I just think people in the UK have little idea of what's happening in Spain and the more info they have the better. The general idea is if you need to work to finance your life in Spain you need a sure job offer before you make the move, or a UK job you can do from home over the internet, or somebody who works off shore, or you are single footloose and fancy free and can go back and pickup your life in the UK if things don't work out here ...
> 
> Good luck to those who decide to come


thanks for posting this PW & for the translation for those who don't speak Spanish - they are the ones who really NEED to know this!!

I actually thought that since the demonstrations in Spain - not to mention those in London by Spanish people - had been well covered by the BBC news, that people in the UK would know about the situation here 


eta - I'll copy your post to the 'economy' sticky - do you have a link to the original too?


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## Pesky Wesky

*unemployment spain 2011, economy, jobs, work*



xabiachica said:


> thanks for posting this PW & for the translation for those who don't speak Spanish - they are the ones who really NEED to know this!!
> 
> I actually thought that since the demonstrations in Spain - not to mention those in London by Spanish people - had been well covered by the BBC news, that people in the UK would know about the situation here
> 
> 
> eta - I'll copy your post to the 'economy' sticky - do you have a link to the original too?


Yes, sorry, I meant to put it in
España tardará 15 años en rebajar el paro a niveles previos a la crisis, según la OCDE - La Nueva España - Diario Independiente de Asturias

In fact I've found it in English here
Spain need at least 15 years to regain the level of employment before the crisis | Economics Newspaper


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## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yes, sorry, I meant to put it in
> España tardará 15 años en rebajar el paro a niveles previos a la crisis, según la OCDE - La Nueva España - Diario Independiente de Asturias
> 
> In fact I've found it in English here
> Spain need at least 15 years to regain the level of employment before the crisis | Economics Newspaper


even better - I shall add the links to the sticky - thanks


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## JoCatalunya

Even when Mr Smith is bilingual, or even trilingual the chances of him getting a job over here are to be honest nil and bucklies, well in my region it is. 
I feel great sadness for those folk who want to come but are forced to face up to the reality that it isnt all Sangria and sunshine although some will still come across, full of hope and enthusiasm. Good luck to you all I say. But for 10 coming over, 10 of us I swear are returning to whence they came. The dream shattered.


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## jojo

What is "the dream" anyway???? 

Jo xxx


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## Alcalaina

jojo said:


> What is "the dream" anyway????
> 
> Jo xxx


Good question. Since time began, people have dreamed of a better life in a faraway land. The grass is greener, etc etc. It's human nature, and people who are unhappy in their home country imagine they will somehow feel better if they move somewhere warm and sunny like Spain.

Which is why they will keep coming, and some of them will stay and be fine, and others will get homesick and/or run out of money and want to go back to where they came from.

But at least they'll be able to say they gave it a go.


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## mark_d

Moving somewhere warm and sunny isn't the answer to all life's worries but if you do integrate and find work there's no doubt the quality of life is better. Unless you speak Spanish well and have a required skill then it is very difficult. Maybe look at towns that aren't popular with expats, get tefl qualification and teach English. The Spanish young are really studios and always want to learn English with a native speaker; unfortunately they are also looking to leave Spain to find work so English tuition is in demand.


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## Alcalaina

mark_d said:


> Moving somewhere warm and sunny isn't the answer to all life's worries but if you do integrate and find work there's no doubt the quality of life is better. Unless you speak Spanish well and have a required skill then it is very difficult. Maybe look at towns that aren't popular with expats, get tefl qualification and teach English. The Spanish young are really studios and always want to learn English with a native speaker; unfortunately they are also looking to leave Spain to find work so English tuition is in demand.


When I was working my socks off in the UK so we could pay off the mortgage and retire early to Spain, I had the Spanish and English weather details side by side on my computer desktop - it was certainly motivating! I had no idea then how cold and wet it could get ... 

I agree with you about teaching English. We are in a non-expat town and are constantly being asked if we give English lessons - both for children and adults (including teachers at the local schools). We don't need the work, in fact we do some for free, but the demand is certainly out there. And it's a great way of getting to know people.


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## mark_d

Living for almost three years now somewhere where it's almost always sunny and warm I would actually appreciate more cold rainy weather. Or maybe I wouldn't; I'm not sure.  I can always go to Edinburgh for a week if I want rain.

ps. I meant studious.


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## Guest

Even people who are not from the UK will find this information useful.


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## jojo

mark_d said:


> Living for almost three years now somewhere where it's almost always sunny and warm I would actually appreciate more cold rainy weather. Or maybe I wouldn't; I'm not sure.  I can always go to Edinburgh for a week if I want rain.
> 
> ps. I meant studious.



Costa del Sol if you want cold rainy weather!!! We seem to get it constantly from mid December thru til late April!!!!

Jo xxx


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## thrax

Very interesting thread. The odd thing is, for us anyway, is that we came here with some money and a pension to help us live a while whilst we found out what we wanted to do. We have a business plan which we are putting into practice but is taking a lot longer than we figured. Before we move here I remember saying to the OH whatever happens it is likely to be something we didn't think of. And sure enough that has happened as I am now teaching English and for a very good rate. OK we got lucky but then when you take a bold step sometimes (if not always) you have to have luck. We are a long way off from being totally secure, but we weren't in the UK anyway and whatever anyone else says I know the cost of living here is way cheaper than where we lived in England. Yes, you have to do without some 'English' stuff or at least find out where you can but it cheaper than the rip off English shops. For example, I can get Heinz baked beans here cheaper than I could in England. All right, it isn't a fantastic result but at least it show it can be done. We hope to be earning more than our rent by this time next year just from the teaching work and my pension is more than enough to live on so we should start saving. But who knows. What is really important is that although it can get cold here in the winter and at night, it wasn't -20C which is what we would have had this winter where we lived in England. Whilst our friends were suffering some horendous weather we were sitting on the terrace or in a restaurant over looking the med. OPur new son is thouroughly enjoying his outside world which he would have rarely had back home. We know that Spain is in dire straights and perhaps teaching students who need English as a second language might help a bit. Either way, we remain happy we left another country which is not exactly in a great position. And when you consider you only live the once, I would have hated lying on my death bed having never even tried.


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## jojo

thrax said:


> Very interesting thread. The odd thing is, for us anyway, is that we came here with some money and a pension to help us live a while whilst we found out what we wanted to do. We have a business plan which we are putting into practice but is taking a lot longer than we figured. Before we move here I remember saying to the OH whatever happens it is likely to be something we didn't think of. And sure enough that has happened as I am now teaching English and for a very good rate. OK we got lucky but then when you take a bold step sometimes (if not always) you have to have luck. We are a long way off from being totally secure, but we weren't in the UK anyway and whatever anyone else says I know the cost of living here is way cheaper than where we lived in England. Yes, you have to do without some 'English' stuff or at least find out where you can but it cheaper than the rip off English shops. For example, I can get Heinz baked beans here cheaper than I could in England. All right, it isn't a fantastic result but at least it show it can be done. We hope to be earning more than our rent by this time next year just from the teaching work and my pension is more than enough to live on so we should start saving. But who knows. What is really important is that although it can get cold here in the winter and at night, it wasn't -20C which is what we would have had this winter where we lived in England. Whilst our friends were suffering some horendous weather we were sitting on the terrace or in a restaurant over looking the med. OPur new son is thouroughly enjoying his outside world which he would have rarely had back home. We know that Spain is in dire straights and perhaps teaching students who need English as a second language might help a bit. Either way, we remain happy we left another country which is not exactly in a great position. And when you consider you only live the once, I would have hated lying on my death bed having never even tried.


You were fairly well prepared and had some luck!! What I worry about are those people who give up what they consider dead end, boring jobs, homes, families, friends, social security, child allowance, free healthcare and literally pile their kids onto a plane and think that they can live in a nice house with a pool, do a bit of "this and that" and enjoy life!!! It is sooooooo not like that. If you have a pension, or some other income then maybe, but if you have nothing, it is stupidity to come over here assuming you'll get work and the kids will be fine going off to a spanish school, pick up the language, make friends, love swimming everyday - the reality is arguments and stress about money, having to say no to the kids cos you have little money, scratching around trying to find some work just to pay this months rent and/or bills, not daring to think about the month after........ Not being able to afford to use a doctor, not being able to help the kids with their homework, dealing with the kids missing their family and friends back home, getting bored with the pool, getting burnt and miserable with the heat...... yes I've known families like that and they are all back in the UK now, significantly poorer and in a mess. in fact a couple of cases they are no longer together. All that for "a place in the sun" and that dream!!!

Jo xxx


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## tam123

@ Thrax - I really loved your post; optimistic but realistic. I suppose at the end of the day life is life wherever you go and it's certainly been hard here (Edinburgh), recently. I'm a Lecturer in Further Education and made the decision to do the Cambridge English Language Teaching to Adults course. Will be finished by summer and ready to try teaching in Spain and I have to say I'm thoroughly looking forward to it!


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## 90199

*Not all bad news,* it was reported last night on the Canarian news T.V. channel, that tourism is on the increase and that the Catering industry are now seeking more staff to cope with the present and projected increase.

So polish your spoon and fork, starch and press the white jackets, you might be needed again

Hepa


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## Beachbumbler

We've been living (and working) here for 7 years now, and we really don't want to ever go back to England. 
We live (and work) on a campsite, right on the beach here in Valencia province, and we chose this area BECAUSE there were hardly any English people here. 
The answer is to learn Spanish BEFORE you come out - I also speak German, which helps a lot here - and not expect everyone to speak English, or welcome you with open arms. Like everywhere, you must earn the respect and trust of the local people, or you'll always be an 'in-comer'. Anyone tried moving to Yorkshire, for example (lol)
And yes, it does get cold here (we had -1º for two nights running a couple of weeks ago!) and yes, it does rain, but at least we know we have the Spring, Summer & Autumn to look forward to!!
If you're prepared to work at anything that is available, and work as long & as hard as the Spanish do, then you'll survive. But at the moment no-one can expect to live like kings ANYWHERE in Europe, so we might as well be poor in a good climate and with a good quality of life.
Anyone agree with me?


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## anles

Pesky Wesky said:


> If you don't want to know about the dire situation Spain is in at the moment, DON'T read any further!
> 
> According to the OECD (Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development)
> 
> _España tardará 15 años en reducir el paro a tasas previas a la crisis. No será hasta 2026 cuando la economía española verá caer el paro hasta el 8,9%, cerca ya del 8,6% que registraba al cierre de 2007, según las nuevas previsiones hechas públicas ayer por la Organización para la Cooperación y el Desarrollo Económico (OCDE), que empeora los pronósticos que hizo en noviembre. La institución que dirige Ángel Gurría reiteró que para mejorar esa situación es necesario modificar la negociación colectiva y reducir las indemnizaciones por despido_
> 
> _*Spain will take 15 years to reduce unemployment to pre-crisis levels,* according to the OECD
> Spain will take 15 years to reduce unemployment to pre-crisis rate. It will not be until 2026 when the Spanish economy will see unemployment fall to 8.9%, close and from 8.6% recorded at the end of 2007, according to new projections released yesterday by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), which worsens the forecast made ​​in November. The institution he leads Angel Gurria reiterated that to improve this situation is necessary to amend the collective bargaining and reduce redundancy._
> 
> OK, somebody, somewhere will get a job, but will it be Mr. Smith from the UK who speaks conversational Spanish (¿Dónde está la farmacia?), whose qualifications are not recognised here, whose family is all back in the UK and who doesn't know the town, nor the city nor the country, OR will the job go to Pepe Pérez, who is bilingual, knows the place and who'll work from 8:00 to 20:00 without batting an eyelid???
> 
> My objective is NOT to spread bad news, put people off, kill the dream, crow over those who are not here.
> 
> I just think people in the UK have little idea of what's happening in Spain and the more info they have the better. The general idea is if you need to work to finance your life in Spain you need a sure job offer before you make the move, or a UK job you can do from home over the internet, or somebody who works off shore, or you are single footloose and fancy free and can go back and pickup your life in the UK if things don't work out here ...
> 
> Good luck to those who decide to come


I find these translations really painful! And inaccurate as it doesn't say... reduce redundancy, quite the opposite in fact, by making it cheaper it is likely to increase it!


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## Pesky Wesky

anles said:


> I find these translations really painful! And inaccurate as it doesn't say... reduce redundancy, quite the opposite in fact, by making it cheaper it is likely to increase it!


It looks like I used Google translate or similar an didn't correct it, but I don't know what you mean in this case. Can you offer a better one, please?
And I can't make head nor tail of the phrase *And inaccurate as it doesn't say... reduce redundancy, quite the opposite in fact, by making it cheaper it is likely to increase it! *Can you explain it to me please?


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## Alcalaina

Beachbumbler said:


> We've been living (and working) here for 7 years now, and we really don't want to ever go back to England.
> We live (and work) on a campsite, right on the beach here in Valencia province, and we chose this area BECAUSE there were hardly any English people here.
> The answer is to learn Spanish BEFORE you come out - I also speak German, which helps a lot here - and not expect everyone to speak English, or welcome you with open arms. Like everywhere, you must earn the respect and trust of the local people, or you'll always be an 'in-comer'. Anyone tried moving to Yorkshire, for example (lol)
> And yes, it does get cold here (we had -1º for two nights running a couple of weeks ago!) and yes, it does rain, but at least we know we have the Spring, Summer & Autumn to look forward to!!
> If you're prepared to work at anything that is available, and work as long & as hard as the Spanish do, then you'll survive. But at the moment no-one can expect to live like kings ANYWHERE in Europe, so *we might as well be poor in a good climate and with a good quality of life.*
> Anyone agree with me?


I agree more or less - especially the last bit. The most important thing though is not to be under any illusion that everything is going to be better because the weather is better. That's why all the "negative" (i.e. realistic) information on forums like this is so important. It's vital to know exactly what you're getting into and leave those rose-tinted spectacles in the drawer.


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## Pesky Wesky

Beachbumbler said:


> We've been living (and working) here for 7 years now, and we really don't want to ever go back to England.
> We live (and work) on a campsite, right on the beach here in Valencia province, and we chose this area BECAUSE there were hardly any English people here.
> The answer is to learn Spanish BEFORE you come out - I also speak German, which helps a lot here - and not expect everyone to speak English, or welcome you with open arms. Like everywhere, you must earn the respect and trust of the local people, or you'll always be an 'in-comer'. Anyone tried moving to Yorkshire, for example (lol)
> And yes, it does get cold here (we had -1º for two nights running a couple of weeks ago!) and yes, it does rain, but at least we know we have the Spring, Summer & Autumn to look forward to!!
> If you're prepared to work at anything that is available, and work as long & as hard as the Spanish do, then you'll survive. But at the moment no-one can expect to live like kings ANYWHERE in Europe, so we might as well be poor in a good climate and with a good quality of life.
> Anyone agree with me?


I agree to a certain extent. 
I would agree that the wisest action to take would be to learn as much Spanish as possible before you come to live here, but you should be aware that for most people where you really learn is in the field so to speak. For all you learn in the UK, where you really put things together is here. You may have an "O" level or A level, but working and living in Spanish is a whole different world. For example how many courses teach you that in the street in many places in Spain, the widest form of greeting someone is by actually saying _*adios*_, not _*hola*_ or _*buenos días*_. So whilst it's a good idea to get a grounding in Spanish, the learning process will take years and is ongoing.

Yes, it does rain and it does get cold.

And in the next section I would insert a maybe
_If you're prepared to work at anything that is available, and work as long & as hard as the Spanish do, then *maybe* you'll survive._
IMO there's no security that that will happen any more. Just because you go lower down the chain doesn't give you any guarantees. So you used to own a clothes shop and now you're prepared to work as a shop assistant, you used to be head waiter and now you'll work behind a bar, you used to be a constructor and now you'll work as a painter. You'll work during the week and weekends too. It doesn't really matter. With so much unemployment you'd be lucky to pick up work nowadays. A few will make it, but a lot won't. It's up to you if you want to take the risk or not.

And
.._. at the moment no-one can expect to live like kings ANYWHERE in Europe, _
I agree with, but why anybody would think that they stand a _*better*_ chance of employment here than in the UK is beyond me. That they may get lucky is a possibility but it's certainly not easier here.


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## jimenato

If you are footloose and fancy free go for it. Who knows - you might get away with it and does it really matter if you don't? However if you have dependants and need to work to provide for them you would be utterly bonkers to come to Spain right now. 10 years ago maybe you might have pulled it off but now? No chance.


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## jojo

Beachbumbler said:


> If you're prepared to work at anything that is available, and work as long & as hard as the Spanish do, then you'll survive. But at the moment no-one can expect to live like kings ANYWHERE in Europe, so we might as well be poor in a good climate and with a good quality of life.
> Anyone agree with me?


 work long and hard doing what??? Thats the problem. Even with the intent, if theres nothing to do then theres no point. The worry, stress and lack of money will be peoples downfall. The good climate doesnt make up for that. 

Jo xxx


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## XTreme

The bottom line is that you won't find any work in Spain! That's the way it is!
However, there are people here who are wising up to that fact, and putting in income streams that are not necessarily dependent on Spain. 
Or if they are geared towards Spain then they're spreading the net WIDE to encompass the whole country. You CANNOT think local.....if you do, you're doomed!

Here's an example of a Brit business that opened last year *UK Clothes Spain*.....who seem to be doing very well, and have now actually opened up a shop in Malaga for it due to the vast Brit presence there.

That's a fairly new one but there's others who have been established for years like *Camino de Santiago Tours*
I could give you numerous examples of people who've made it work in different areas of business.....but in every case they spread it wide.....NOT local! 

THAT is what works......and I could show you _hundreds_ of clients to verify it!

Hell....it's working for me as well....500+ clients across 10 countries, and in 6 different languages! Unfortunately one of them is Stravinsky, but you can't win them all!


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## Pesky Wesky

XTreme said:


> The bottom line is that you won't find any work in Spain! That's the way it is!
> However, there are people here who are wising up to that fact, and putting in income streams that are not necessarily dependent on Spain.
> Or if they are geared towards Spain then they're spreading the net WIDE to encompass the whole country. You CANNOT think local.....if you do, you're doomed!
> 
> Here's an example of a Brit business that opened last year *UK Clothes Spain*.....who seem to be doing very well, and have now actually opened up a shop in Malaga for it due to the vast Brit presence there.
> 
> That's a fairly new one but there's others who have been established for years like *Camino de Santiago Tours*
> I could give you numerous examples of people who've made it work in different areas of business.....but in every case they spread it wide.....NOT local!
> 
> THAT is what works......and I could show you _hundreds_ of clients to verify it!
> 
> Hell....it's working for me as well....500+ clients across 10 countries, and in 6 different languages! Unfortunately one of them is Stravinsky, but you can't win them all!


Good point.
Even English teaching is/ can be nationwide or international with phone classes, Skype etc. and the self employed teachers that I know, myself included tend to go down this route.


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## anles

> España tardará 15 años en reducir el paro a tasas previas a la crisis. No será hasta 2026 cuando la economía española verá caer el paro hasta el 8,9%, cerca ya del 8,6% que registraba al cierre de 2007, según las nuevas previsiones hechas públicas ayer por la Organización para la Cooperación y el Desarrollo Económico (OCDE), que empeora los pronósticos que hizo en noviembre. La institución que dirige Ángel Gurría reiteró que para mejorar esa situación es necesario modificar la negociación colectiva y reducir las indemnizaciones por despido


It will take Spain 15 years to reduce unemployment to the same levels as before the crisis. It will not be until 2026 that Spanish economy will experience a drop to 8,9%, similar to the 8,6% registered at the end of 2007, according to the new forcast issued by the OCDE yesterday, which is even worse than the previous forcast in November. The institution led by Ángel Gurría insists that to improve the situation it is necessary to modify collective negotiations and to reduce the compensation paid for redundancy.
This is the inaccurate bit, they are talking about reducing the money paid as compensation (x number of days per year) in case of redundancy, not about reducing the number of redundancies as implied by the google translater.


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## xxxxxxxxxxxxxdeanhankin

jojo said:


> Costa del Sol if you want cold rainy weather!!! We seem to get it constantly from mid December thru til late April!!!!
> 
> Jo xxx



Dont say that Jo, I've just booked to come over next week


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## Alcalaina

deanhankin said:


> Dont say that Jo, I've just booked to come over next week


Not this year - it's been lovely all winter. (Probably cos Jo's been in the UK).


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## jojo

Alcalaina said:


> Not this year - it's been lovely all winter. (Probably cos Jo's been in the UK).


typical! and its p****** down here 

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9

jojo said:


> typical! and its p****** down here
> 
> Jo xxx



Oh dear.....Not wishing to gloat but....

We've just come back from walking OLA in the campo. I'm wearing linen jeans and a short-sleeved poloshirt. I applied sun block as I'm getting a bit sore and don't want to have skin like a leather handbag.

OH is watching football on that TV Gerry fixed for us. I however am going to read on the sunlounger by the pool until the Spurs - Man U. match comes on at 4pm.

You'll be back enjoying it all soon, never fear!!


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## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> Oh dear.....Not wishing to gloat but....
> 
> We've just come back from walking OLA in the campo. I'm wearing linen jeans and a short-sleeved poloshirt. I applied sun block as I'm getting a bit sore and don't want to have skin like a leather handbag.
> 
> OH is watching football on that TV Gerry fixed for us. I however am going to read on the sunlounger by the pool until the Spurs - Man U. match comes on at 4pm.
> 
> You'll be back enjoying it all soon, never fear!!


:Cry: 

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky

jojo said:


> typical! and its p****** down here
> 
> Jo xxx


It should be doing that here. Not a drop of rain for months on end. We're going to be in deep s**t if it doesn't rain before the summer.
BTW I'm not doing any of the stuff mrypg9's gloating about. I have spent the morning in Madrid, where I was wearing my ski jacket.


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## Solwriter

Pesky Wesky said:


> It should be doing that here. Not a drop of rain for months on end. We're going to be in deep s**t if it doesn't rain before the summer.
> BTW I'm not doing any of the stuff mrypg9's gloating about. I have spent the morning in Madrid, where I was wearing my ski jacket.


I haven't visited Madrid for a number of years, but always have this image of extreme temperatures there, just like in other inland regions, but even more so when it comes to wind chill.
Is this true?


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## Pesky Wesky

Solwriter said:


> I haven't visited Madrid for a number of years, but always have this image of extreme temperatures there, just like in other inland regions, but even more so when it comes to wind chill.
> Is this true?


Yes and no.
I believe temperatures and weather in general are not as extreme as in the past (50 - 100 years ago), but it can reach - 10/15º and at the other end of the scale 40/ 45º in the summer. Of course the official figures never reflect that, but if you're living it, you know!!
Anyway, this year has been very mild, too mild and dry. We were wearing t shirts still in October and that's just crazy. It hasn't snowed at all and has rained very little too.
We're going to have a tough summer if it doesn't change soon


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## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yes and no.
> I believe temperatures and weather in general are not as extreme as in the past (50 - 100 years ago), but it can reach - 10/15º and at the other end of the scale 40/ 45º in the summer. Of course the official figures never reflect that, but if you're living it, you know!!
> Anyway, this year has been very mild, too mild and dry. We were wearing t shirts still in October and that's just crazy. It hasn't snowed at all and has rained very little too.
> We're going to have a tough summer if it doesn't change soon



It rained on Friday but not enough to make a real difference. This is my fourth winter here and the first where all the rios are arroyos.

It's not good for farmers round here. They were already hit by frosts, an unusual occiurrence here. Now drought.

I last visited Madrid in summer. It was one of the hottest places I've been to.
Strange how things stick in your mind....Madrid conjures up for me images of shiny black patent leather, shocking pink and heat,heat, heat...and noise.


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## Guest

just spent a wonderful night with happy Spanish people in plaza alameda de hercules, while there is much doom and despair on this forum...it does not necessarily depict real life in all aspects. fok bad news


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## jojo

folklore said:


> just spent a wonderful night with happy Spanish people in plaza alameda de hercules, while there is much doom and despair on this forum...it does not necessarily depict real life in all aspects. fok bad news



I often think that. The Spanish and their way of living isnt one of overtly displaying their problems. They still enjoy life, which is good. There is still a lot of wealth around - well if you look at the cars being driven, the huge amounts spent in supermarkets, the fiestas etc. but I guess its those you dont see who are struggling as they dont make an issue of it

Jo xxx


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## Guest

jojo said:


> I often think that. The Spanish and their way of living isnt one of overtly displaying their problems. They still enjoy life, which is good. There is still a lot of wealth around - well if you look at the cars being driven, the huge amounts spent in supermarkets, the fiestas etc. but I guess its those you dont see who are struggling as they dont make an issue of it
> 
> Jo xxx


They had the greatest boom in their country outside of stealing others people gold. But I actually think they will reject capitalism and continue on with their culture and life style which all others must admire or just be blind to.


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## Alcalaina

I hate this generic term "the Spanish". Some Spanish people are happy and carefree, some are depressed and careworn. Some want to continue their traditional culture, others want progress and modernism. It is just as daft to generalise this way about the Spanish people as it is to say all Americans are greedy selfish *******s.


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## jules 123

jojo said:


> typical! and its p****** down here
> 
> Jo xxx


Great for aquaplaning, in your neck of the woods ... as I discovered driving through the valley yesterday afternoon.


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## mrypg9

folklore said:


> They had the greatest boom in their country outside of stealing others people gold. But I ac*tually think they will reject capitalism* and continue on with their culture and life style which all others must admire or just be blind to.


Are you serious????

Any idea when this will happen and what will take its place?

I thought you were coming to Spain to start a presumably capitalist business so I guess you're hoping they won't reject it yet....

Spanish culture like all other European cultures is becoming homogenised although of course it is still around in festivals and some aspects of daily life.

But Alcalaina is quite right....far too easy to imagine Spain is a uniform country when it isn't - it is almost a federation of regions with their own customs and language.

It's the same with most European countries and also from what I have seen the States too. Take the myth that all Germans are serious and hardworking - that may be so of Schwabenland but certainly isn't the case of the Rheinland. From the little I have seen the east and west coasts of America are hugely different.

It's easy to romanticise national cultures and differences - and long may they continue - but the sad truth is that most of us drink the same Coke and eat the same cornflakes.


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## Guest

mrypg9 said:


> Are you serious????
> 
> Any idea when this will happen and what will take its place?
> 
> I thought you were coming to Spain to start a presumably capitalist business so I guess you're hoping they won't reject it yet....
> 
> Spanish culture like all other European cultures is becoming homogenised although of course it is still around in festivals and some aspects of daily life.
> 
> But Alcalaina is quite right....far too easy to imagine Spain is a uniform country when it isn't - it is almost a federation of regions with their own customs and language.
> 
> It's the same with most European countries and also from what I have seen the States too. Take the myth that all Germans are serious and hardworking - that may be so of Schwabenland but certainly isn't the case of the Rheinland. From the little I have seen the east and west coasts of America are hugely different.
> 
> It's easy to romanticise national cultures and differences - and long may they continue - but the sad truth is that most of us drink the same Coke and eat the same cornflakes.


hell yea I'm serious...I worry for all the world becoming the same...but then I guess I won't need a stinking visa. I hate capitalism and what it is doing not only to my own county and my children...as I see the same thing repeating here and in Colombia...the eu sounded great in that it might stop warring among the euopean nations...but the end result will be that yes, they all drink coke and eat the same cornflakes. I hope that the youth will change the current process but honestly given the amount of market there is they will all be brain washed into spending their money on coke, corn flakes and subscriptions, as the 1% want.

The new world order sucks


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## mrypg9

folklore said:


> hell yea I'm serious...I worry for all the world becoming the same...but then I guess I won't need a stinking visa. I hate capitalism and what it is doing not only to my own county and my children...as I see the same thing repeating here and in Colombia...the eu sounded great in that it might stop warring among the euopean nations...but the end result will be that yes, they all drink coke and eat the same cornflakes. I hope that the youth will change the current process but honestly given the amount of market there is they will all be brain washed into spending their money on coke, corn flakes and subscriptions, as the 1% want.
> 
> The new world order sucks


But the EU is in its current form a creation of the neo-liberal free marketeers.

Yes, the new world order sucks. But it originated from across the pond and has been exported via Thatcher to most of the world.

The EU has indeed prevented wars between its member states but it was powerless to prevent war in the former Yugoslavia or in the breakaway Russian Republics...all part of Europe.


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## Guest

mrypg9 said:


> But the EU is in its current form a creation of the neo-liberal free marketeers.
> 
> Yes, the new world order sucks. But it originated from across the pond and has been exported via Thatcher to most of the world.
> 
> The EU has indeed prevented wars between its member states but it was powerless to prevent war in the former Yugoslavia or in the breakaway Russian Republics...all part of Europe.


All the other countries will get sucked into the new world order...the strategy is to create pseudo middle class..as they vote the way the new world order wants..

wait, the US economy is coming around...they are trained to consume other countries products which in turn creates the pseudo middle class in their country, who will then consume poorer countries products and the cycle will repeat. this will happen until one generation of youth find themselves with jobs and no benefits. Then hopefully there will be another revolt like what happened after the rise of the unions post 1st gilded age.

This is why I probably won't move to Spain but higher in the the andes where I can create a safe haven for me and mine.


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## Guest

mrypg9 said:


> But the EU is in its current form a creation of the neo-liberal free marketeers.
> 
> Yes, the new world order sucks. But it originated from across the pond and has been exported via Thatcher to most of the world.


Regan, when is someone going to have the balls to write a book of how he started us on this road? his deregulation of everything? especially when he allowed inter-state banking, now three banks own everything...Thatcher was his willing accomplice


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## mrypg9

folklore said:


> Regan, when is someone going to have the balls to write a book of how he started us on this road? his deregulation of everything? especially when he allowed inter-state banking, now three banks own everything...Thatcher was his willing accomplice


There are very many books about the free market and its origins...the Austrian school as popularised by the Friedmann disciples in the University of Chicago. 

But that process started long before Reagan. 

America's mission to remake the world in its image began after WW2....Vietnam, South and Central America....all predate Reagan.

What I find most ironic is G.W. Bush, the unelected President, going to countries like Georgia and the Ukraine and lecturing them about democracy and 'free' elections....


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## xabiaxica

:focus: :frusty:

*warning - this thread contains bad news about Spain *


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## mrypg9

xabiachica said:


> :focus: :frusty:
> 
> *warning - this thread contains bad news about Spain *




The free market is VERY bad news for Spain....


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## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> The free market is VERY bad news for Spain....


And right now, so is the EU (or at least, its self-appointed president Frau Merkel). If Rajoy can't negotiate a relaxation of the €15 billion austerity cuts required by the EU in 2012, by this time next year we could find ourselves with schools, clinics and hospitals closing all over the country and unemployment hitting 30%.


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## jimenato

Genuine question - not politically motivated. 

What is the alternative to austerity?


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## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> And right now, so is the EU (or at least, its self-appointed president Frau Merkel). If Rajoy can't negotiate a relaxation of the €15 billion austerity cuts required by the EU in 2012, by this time next year we could find ourselves with schools, clinics and hospitals closing all over the country and unemployment hitting 30%.




And the alternative is????

You're wrong about Angela Merkel....no way should she be described as 'self-appointed'. It is other EU states, notably the profligate spenders of other people's money like Greece that have put Merkel and the unwilling German taxpayers in a position where they as the strongest economy have no choice buit to take a leading role, for which Europe should be thankful.

Think of what a Polish Foreign Minister said recently: 'I fear a Germany that is inactive more than one that is active'. Germany is a very reluctant leader and imo it's time they got over war guilt...as the Polish Foreign Minister Sikorski also said.

The stark fact is that since reunification in 1870 for various reasons Germany has and always will be the fulcrum of Europe. 

Think yourself into the German taxpayers' shoes: they are being asked essentially to allow the ECB to print more money, stoking folk memories of uber-inflation leading to a catastrophic war...catastrophic for the German people as well as the other peoples of Europe. Money to bail out Greece, a country where tax avoidance is a national sport, where indeed longer hours are worked...but productivity is less, where many people retire on pensions that are a huge % of their former incomes....and where past Governments borrowed to fund non-productive public sector jobs instead of investing in growth.

What I wonder would your view be then?

Instead of blaming Germany -and the portrayal of Merkel in jackboots and SS uniform on Greek national tv is nothing short of disgraceful...surely the Greeks should put their own house in order?

We know that Spain is heading for recession - as is quite likely the UK - and harsh measures will be part of what is to come.

But as PW pointed out on another thread....there is no money. Period.

We can curse and wring our hands - or dream of wringing certain politician's necks - but what is the escape route?


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## mrypg9

jimenato said:


> Genuine question - not politically motivated.
> 
> What is the alternative to austerity?


The obvious answer is : growth.

But that begs another question: how to achieve growth? The private sector can't do it. The Government has no money for Keynesian pump-priming.

Unless a miracle occurs we have to sit this one out.

25% unemployed is a tragedy. But could it be that many of that 25% are making a reasonable living working on the black? The 75% employed may indeed be fearful for their jobs and their futures but all over Europe people are turning to parties of the Right. It's what happens in times of recession.

France may be the exception in that a supposedly left-wing party may oust Sarkozy. But then the French Socialist Party has a history of making left-wing noises to get -narrowly - elected with a split right wing opposition making it easier for them - then once in office they junk all the left-wing stuff.

The French electorate are used to that and expect nothing different.


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## Alcalaina

I don't know how closely you follow Spanish news but nobody in the government is denying the need for austerity measures, just the timing. To make the required cuts in one year would put the mockers on any possibility for growth as well as cause genuine hardship amongst the population.

Anyway, he didn't get the leeway he was asking for.

Rajoy tells regions no way out of cutbacks as government prepares budget | In english | EL PAÍS


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## Alcalaina

... So expect lots more headlines like this:

Barcelona hospital closes its surgery ward because of regional health cuts | In english | EL PAÍS

Are we really prepared to accept an increase in premature deaths from cancer as the price of pacifying the markets?


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## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> ... So expect lots more headlines like this:
> 
> Barcelona hospital closes its surgery ward because of regional health cuts | In english | EL PAÍS
> 
> Are we really prepared to accept an increase in premature deaths from cancer as the price of pacifying the markets?


D


I think that is a rhetorical question. All over the world people have accepted all kinds of dreadful things. It's a sad fact of life. We see tens of thousands of Syrians being slaughtered on breakfast news, say how awful it is and something ought to be done...and carry on eating our toast. People die prematurely all over Europe because of lack of funding for health care.

The 'real' answer to your question is, realistically and most probably 'yes'. It has always been so, nothing new.

But behind it lies I think a larger, more fundamental belief...that we can prevent needless suffering. In a perfect world that should be the case but sadly contrary to the faith of humanists and other religious people who see history as a path of progress, mankind is not 'perfectable' and terrible things, many of which could be prevented, happen and will go on happening.

Am I happy in accepting this? Of course not. But that is the truth about the world.

So these cuts, brought about by the greed and stupidity of the few, will mean suffering and hardship for the many and yes, premature deaths. This will go on for about ten years, we'll have a few prosperous years with hopefully a change in our attitude to free markets and regulation until the next few years of crisis.

Boom and bust cycles are endemic to capitalism, have been since the sixteenth century...and if the majority of people world-wide didn't want to go on living under that system, it would have disappeared by now. As someone said, if the poor really wanted to overthrow the rich, they could: there are more of them. Revolutions have always been top-down, imposed on people who on the whole just accept the change. And there is alweays the counter-revolution.

I do follow Spanish politics, of course I do. I'm a member of a Spanish political party.
But Rajoy has very little wiggle room and austerity is austerity, however gradual.

Jimenato asked a reasonable question which neither of us has answered...because as TINA said, there is no alternative.

Which doesn't mean we're rubbing our hands or wringing them...it means we're sighing resignedly.


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## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> I don't know how closely you follow Spanish news but nobody in the government is denying the need for austerity measures, just the timing. To make the required cuts in one year would put the mockers on any possibility for growth as well as cause genuine hardship amongst the population.
> 
> Anyway, he didn't get the leeway he was asking for.
> 
> Rajoy tells regions no way out of cutbacks as government prepares budget | In english | EL PAÍS


It's two regions that are kicking up a fuss, though, isn't it....
Overspending and poor financial management in some regions -whether PP or PSOE has to be dealt with.

Andalucia could take a closer look at what it spends its taxpayers' money on and consider whether their targeting is sensible.

For example: giving every eleven-year-old a laptop computer? Are the education support grants given to those who are in need or distributed too widely?
How many people in regional bureaucracy are underemployed?

The central government needs to get more control over regional budgets and the whole regional set-up is characterised by waste and duplication...*sixteen* Parliaments with all the attendant bureaucracy and flummery????


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## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> It's two regions that are kicking up a fuss, though, isn't it....
> Overspending and poor financial management in some regions -whether PP or PSOE has to be dealt with.
> 
> Andalucia could take a closer look at what it spends its taxpayers' money on and consider whether their targeting is sensible.
> 
> For example: giving every eleven-year-old a laptop computer? Are the education support grants given to those who are in need or distributed too widely?
> How many people in regional bureaucracy are underemployed?
> 
> The central government needs to get more control over regional budgets and the whole regional set-up is characterised by waste and duplication...*sixteen* Parliaments with all the attendant bureaucracy and flummery????


Which is exactly what the teachers in Madrid are saying. The only thing is that the politicians are not listening. As I said on another thread I believe, professionals from medical and educational areas are for the most part not denying the need for cuts, but what cuts are the best to make?
I would agree, now is not the time to equip every child from Andalucia with a laptop, nor is it high priority to put digital whiteboards in every classroom, *especially* if you don't have the money for the software and maintenance...
Maybe school transport needs looking at, perhaps solar powered energy may be a wise investment and perhaps we'll not replace the chairs this year.
But I doubt that getting rid of special needs teachers, or getting the history teacher to teach French is really beneficial to anybody.


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## Guest

the smartest move IMHO for any country is educating their youth. there are a lot of incentives in Spain for the youth to promote learning...the future is in the youth of the world...


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## nigele2

Pesky Wesky said:


> The only thing is that the politicians are not listening.


Some of my thoughts on action that many can do that so often is called for:


Discourage any foreigners who want to come to Spain for whatever reason unless they are going to be gross contributors to the economy in the short term (i.e. they are bringing bags of money with them). 

Try to shout about law enforcement. It needs to be applied to poor and rich in equal measure - but even more so to politicians. This is what needs to be driven hard into members of political parties. If the helpers of political parties can expose the corruption and immoral behaviour then perhaps the system can slowly cleanse itself. (personally I think that it is too late for that and I see no evidence party members are doing anything but turning a blind eye ) 

Encourage those who can see no further than the yoyo-ing of corrupt PP and PSOE that things can change. And if they don't then expect streets running in blood. Seriously it will get nasty.

Help poor spaniards. Many begging in the streets are really hungry. It is not a case of simply tightening the belt. Try to give money rather than food. That way they can pay the gas and electricity.

Yesterday my brother-in-law who works in Madrid packing hams and similar products was informed that 20 employees would go and that the others would make up the time without pay**. That time for medical emergencies would be unpaid. That time off for sickness (signed by a doctor) would lead to instant dismissal. 

A real example of the impact of labour reform increasing unemployment and helping worker abuse???

** There is no evidence (and none has been offered) that this company is doing less business now than it has in the last two years.


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## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> Which is exactly what the teachers in Madrid are saying. The only thing is that the politicians are not listening. As I said on another thread I believe, professionals from medical and educational areas are for the most part not denying the need for cuts, but what cuts are the best to make?
> I would agree, now is not the time to equip every child from Andalucia with a laptop, nor is it high priority to put digital whiteboards in every classroom, *especially* if you don't have the money for the software and maintenance...
> Maybe school transport needs looking at, perhaps solar powered energy may be a wise investment and perhaps we'll not replace the chairs this year.
> But I doubt that getting rid of special needs teachers, or getting the history teacher to teach French is really beneficial to anybody.




You cut out the things that are peripheral to maintaining essential services such as health and education and focus resources on the sharp end..those who deliver the services. Teachers, doctors, nurses...as you point out , these are the resources you cannot do without.

I think that as you say we have no recognise that because of the misdeeds of others, cuts have to be made. We don't want them, we don't like them...but anyone who denies the need at this time for austerity measures is living in cloud-cuckoo-land and blithely ignoring the 'facts on the ground', as the Yanks say.

But cuts to front-line services are wrong, wrong, wrong, especially those in education.

What is urgently needed is the creation of a fund to invest in start-ups for young entrepreneurs such as the young man you posted about and indeed entrepreneurs of all ages, with the focus on green technology and emerging 'big' markets such as China and South America.

The very fact that corruption is such a public issue -although not as much as it should be - is in itself a sign that Spain is dealing with this problem which is no way unique to Spain but is a feature of post-socialist as well as post-reactionary right-wing regimes. There are in our area massive corruption trials either taking place or about to....the huge trial in Marbella involving former PP politicians, officials...even popular singers. The Astapa trial involving corrupt PSOE councillors, officials and businessmen is about to begin in Estepona

. All along the coasts Mayors, planning officials and others are being imprisoned after being convicted. 
There may be miscarriages of justice...good heavens, we have them in the UK too.. ..and some cases such as the Garzon affair are not as clear-cut as some would wish.

In a small town near us the IU Mayor created lucrative posts for family members....don't let's for one moment think corruption and nepotism are limited to two major parties. Of course the greatest and most ingrained corruption is to be found amongst people who work on the black and avoid paying IVA. That will be hard to deal with as so many justify these practices on the grounds of necessity...and to some extent I can see their point.

I would venture to suggest that Spain is probably the leading EU state in coming to grips with the problem of corruption. There is massive fraud and corruption in many former socialist EU states -Bulgaria lost out on EU funding because of its lax approach to the problem. Political corruption at the highest governmental level to the lowest municipal level is a feature of Czech politics...yet unlike Spain there has been NO , not one, high-profile prosecution. So whilst not sweeping the topic under the carpet, we really shouldn't single out corruption as something most Spaniards simply accept with resignation as the evidence is there that they don't - evidence in the form of the trials and the number of convictions.

It will be very interesting to see the result in Andalucia on 25 March. I suspect that in spite of massive regional unemployment the PP will win, albeit it narrowly. After thirty years of PSOE dominance people want a change. They are also sick of PSOE complacency and evidence of malpractice at the highest level.

I don't have a vote, obviously, but I shall in my little way be helping PACMA, the Andalucian Party for Animal Rights, get some local publicity.


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## nigele2

Mary the problem with the corruption cases that do come to court is that sentences are short and recovery of ill gotten gains is negligible. 

But I'll go along with the rest  and wish you luck doing what you can for the animals. Last week in Tenerife I saw a restaurant with a Toucan and parrots in very small cages. The toucan showed all the signs of madness that birds held over time in great restriction display. At least the animals I met under the sea were happy although even there they insist on feeding the turtles and rays. Personally I prefer the PADI "leave only bubbles" approach


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## Solwriter

nigele2 said:


> But I'll go along with the rest  and wish you luck doing what you can for the animals. Last week in Tenerife I saw a restaurant with a Toucan and parrots in very small cages. The toucan showed all the signs of madness that birds held over time in great restriction display. At least the animals I met under the sea were happy although even there they insist on feeding the turtles and rays. Personally I prefer the PADI "leave only bubbles" approach


Reminds me of the summer time view from the car as we drive through a major town in our area.
Blocks of flats, many with tiny birdcages fixed outside the windows, with birds who must be literally cooking in the high summer heat.


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## Alcalaina

Pesky Wesky said:


> Which is exactly what the teachers in Madrid are saying. The only thing is that the politicians are not listening. As I said on another thread I believe, professionals from medical and educational areas are for the most part not denying the need for cuts, but what cuts are the best to make?
> I would agree, now is not the time to equip every child from Andalucia with a laptop, nor is it high priority to put digital whiteboards in every classroom, *especially* if you don't have the money for the software and maintenance...
> Maybe school transport needs looking at, perhaps solar powered energy may be a wise investment and perhaps we'll not replace the chairs this year.
> But I doubt that getting rid of special needs teachers, or getting the history teacher to teach French is really beneficial to anybody.


The Andalucia laptop scheme launched in 2009 provided nearly 200,000 kids with cheap computers (less than €300 each) loaded with open source software. Using open source rather than Microsoft made it very cost-effective. They would have had to purchase new classroom computers anyway. 

The kids can buy their laptops from the school when they leave, or return them for future use. It's a great way of ensuring that everyone has access to the online resources they need, especially in areas of social deprivation of which Andalucia has many.

A few years ago Spain had one of the lowest rates of computer and internet usage in Western Europe, but we have now caught up thanks to schemes like this and the Guadalinfo network.


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## Guest

bad news for those of us that don't have rectangular butts, Spain has rectangular toilets.


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## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> The Andalucia laptop scheme launched in 2009 provided nearly 200,000 kids with cheap computers (less than €300 each) loaded with open source software. Using open source rather than Microsoft made it very cost-effective. They would have had to purchase new classroom computers anyway.
> 
> The kids can buy their laptops from the school when they leave, or return them for future use. It's a great way of ensuring that everyone has access to the online resources they need, especially in areas of social deprivation of which Andalucia has many.
> 
> A few years ago Spain had one of the lowest rates of computer and internet usage in Western Europe, but we have now caught up thanks to schemes like this and the Guadalinfo network.


And how many of those kids needed 'free' laptops? Maybe some did but how many had parents who could afford to pay for them either wholly or in part?

The problem with cuts is that everyone has their 'sacred cow'. So if not universal access to 'free' computers...then what?

The whole idea of universal benefits is one that should be examined imo. I cannot see the justification for giving a millionaire a basic state pension or the child of an Andalucian family with an average or above average income a 'free' laptop at a time when the number of teachers is being drastically reduced.

I think there is a lot of unsubstantiated talk about the value of giving every child -or person - a 'free' computer. We have finally realised in the U.K. that the computer alone doesn't give you brownie points in life: it's the quality and kind of I.T. teaching that accompanies the possession of said device.

In spite of laptops being freely available to all children in the UK, we still lag far behind in the skilled use of said devices.....to the point where large numbers of people with the required skills, in short supply in the UK, are either working in the UK or via the net from the Asian sub-continent. Nigel could probably substantiate that...and my son hires Indian IT specialists as they are scarce in his speciality in the UK.

What evidence is there that spending money on 'free' laptops has benefited either the children of Andalucia or the people of the region as a whole?

My experience of young people and computers is that games, social networking and porn are likely to be the main activities they are used for...not furthering knowledge or learning programming skills.


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## Pesky Wesky

Alcalaina said:


> The Andalucia laptop scheme launched in 2009 provided nearly 200,000 kids with cheap computers (less than €300 each) loaded with open source software. Using open source rather than Microsoft made it very cost-effective. They would have had to purchase new classroom computers anyway.


And to that I'd say the same as Mary. How many kids actually needed those laptops? 
My views about these kinds of things have changed radically recently. 
Firstly - I think when the country's doing well it's a different story to when the country hasn't got a dime, peseta or euro to its name. Bonanza time and recession time, the spending pattern just can't be the same.
Secondly - Make sure what you've got goes to the right places. How many kids have got computers at home? How many adults have? I bet that in a lot of families the kids have got PCs or mobiles with internet and the parents haven't. My daughter has to send work into school by email sometimes and the kids that can't do that are one or none. The parents might not have a computer, but the kids???? 
Thirdly - If you have to choose between a computer for every child/ a digital white board for every class/ a weights room for every sports centre/ trip to the beach for every pensioner AND a nurse in the health centre/ an English teacher at school/ emergency treatment room open at night/ heating on in the elderly persons centre...
you've got to identify very carefully what are essentials and what are "luxuries", and of course everyone's opinion is worthy - and different


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## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> And how many of those kids needed 'free' laptops? Maybe some did but how many had parents who could afford to pay for them either wholly or in part?
> 
> The problem with cuts is that everyone has their 'sacred cow'. So if not universal access to 'free' computers...then what?
> 
> The whole idea of universal benefits is one that should be examined imo. I cannot see the justification for giving a millionaire a basic state pension or the child of an Andalucian family with an average or above average income a 'free' laptop at a time when the number of teachers is being drastically reduced.
> 
> I think there is a lot of unsubstantiated talk about the value of giving every child -or person - a 'free' computer. We have finally realised in the U.K. that the computer alone doesn't give you brownie points in life: it's the quality and kind of I.T. teaching that accompanies the possession of said device.
> 
> In spite of laptops being freely available to all children in the UK, we still lag far behind in the skilled use of said devices.....to the point where large numbers of people with the required skills, in short supply in the UK, are either working in the UK or via the net from the Asian sub-continent. Nigel could probably substantiate that...and my son hires Indian IT specialists as they are scarce in his speciality in the UK.
> 
> What evidence is there that spending money on 'free' laptops has benefited either the children of Andalucia or the people of the region as a whole?



I know a lot of teachers here, and they believe the scheme has made a positive difference. They themselves have had to become "computer literate" which was a bit of a shock for some of the older ones.

The whole idea of universal benefits is that the better-off pay for them through their taxes. You wouldn't means-test who can use the classroom computers, or the libraries, would you? The laptops are just an extension of their learning tools. 

Anyway, the laptops were purchased before the cuts were announced, so there's not much point worrying about it now.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Alcalaina said:


> I know a lot of teachers here, and they believe the scheme has made a positive difference. They themselves have had to become "computer literate" which was a bit of a shock for some of the older ones.
> 
> The whole idea of universal benefits is that the better-off pay for them through their taxes. You wouldn't means-test who can use the classroom computers, or the libraries, would you? The laptops are just an extension of their learning tools.
> 
> Anyway, the laptops were purchased before the cuts were announced, so there's not much point worrying about it now.


I wouldn't means test what tthey are going to use in the class, but I might well do it on freebies that they are going to take home.

That laptops are just an extension of their learning tools is fine when there's enough money to do it and it's not fine when there isn't. 

I'm talking about laptops just as an example, but as I said there's the use of digital whiteboards as well, the new white elephant in schools.

THe point about the teachers becoming computer literate is exactly what I was talking about - in many cases it's the adults that need them, not the kids!


----------



## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> I know a lot of teachers here, and they *believe *the scheme has made a positive difference. They themselves have had to become "computer literate" which was a bit of a shock for some of the older ones.
> 
> The whole idea of universal benefits is that the better-off pay for them through their taxes. You wouldn't means-test who can use the classroom computers, or the libraries, would you? The laptops are just an extension of their learning tools.
> 
> Anyway, the laptops were purchased before the cuts were announced, so there's not much point worrying about it now.


*'Believe' *is the key word. I believe the opposite is true. There is no evidence either way. I also *know* that far too many teachers may know how to use basic software but they have little more computer knowledge than using Microsoft Office and that simply isn't enough these days.

No electronic device can be better for education than a qualified teacher with a low pupil/teacher ratio.

As for universal benefits...do you really think because the better-off pay marginally higher tax rates that they should receive a benefit which if awarded on the basis of need could be given at a much higher rate to those who genuinely need an income top-up?

Should a couple earning jointly £400k a year or more receive Child Benefit?
What's wrong with means testing the better-off?

I have yet to hear a sound justification for universal benefits.


----------



## gus-lopez

A poster mentioned these free lap tops some while back when bemoaning the fact that access to the internet now was slow/ unavailable as the local infrastructure couldn't handle the sudden massive rise in people wanting access.

I must admit that I know there's a crisis but look around me here & listen & partake in discussions about it but find nothing very different in peoples behaviour /spending habits ! 
In december Spain, with 44% , lagged the Uk in numbers of 'Android' mobile phones but last week the reports showed Spain as clear leader now with 54% . That's a near 25% rise in less than 2 months ? Who's buying them & what with ? 

Monday & yesterday Media Markt had 'vat free ' days. I went yesterday afternoon & could barely move around inside ! & they weren't just looking. I saw 2 young couples part up with in excess of 2k for 3d tv's & people were queing at the tills ! 
What's going on ? Around here it's the foreigners that appear to be worried & cutting back more than the Spanish .


----------



## mrypg9

gus-lopez said:


> A poster mentioned these free lap tops some while back when bemoaning the fact that access to the internet now was slow/ unavailable as the local infrastructure couldn't handle the sudden massive rise in people wanting access.
> 
> I must admit that I know there's a crisis but look around me here & listen & partake in discussions about it but find nothing very different in peoples behaviour /spending habits !
> In december Spain, with 44% , lagged the Uk in numbers of 'Android' mobile phones but last week the reports showed Spain as clear leader now with 54% . That's a near 25% rise in less than 2 months ? Who's buying them & what with ?
> 
> Monday & yesterday Media Markt had 'vat free ' days. I went yesterday afternoon & could barely move around inside ! & they weren't just looking. I saw 2 young couples part up with in excess of 2k for 3d tv's & people were queing at the tills !
> What's going on ? Around here it's the foreigners that appear to be worried & cutting back more than the Spanish .


Gus, I have pointed out several times that 24% may be unemployed...but 76% aren't.
Maybe the 24% national figure doesn't show the true picture...it may be too low as many need work but haven't registered...it may be too high as some of the 'unemployed' may be doing very nicely working 'on the black'.

Some of those employed may be fearful of losing their jobs...but not the whole 76% of them. So people will carry on with their usual spending habits which is good as it keeps people in work.

The unemployment figure is truly shocking but for those lucky enough to have work, especially those with permanent contracts, life goes on as normal. We forget that when we concentrate on the bad stuff.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

gus-lopez said:


> A poster mentioned these free lap tops some while back when bemoaning the fact that access to the internet now was slow/ unavailable as the local infrastructure couldn't handle the sudden massive rise in people wanting access.
> 
> I must admit that I know there's a crisis but look around me here & listen & partake in discussions about it but find nothing very different in peoples behaviour /spending habits !
> In december Spain, with 44% , lagged the Uk in numbers of 'Android' mobile phones but last week the reports showed Spain as clear leader now with 54% . That's a near 25% rise in less than 2 months ? Who's buying them & what with ?
> 
> Monday & yesterday Media Markt had 'vat free ' days. I went yesterday afternoon & could barely move around inside ! & they weren't just looking. I saw 2 young couples part up with in excess of 2k for 3d tv's & people were queing at the tills !
> What's going on ? Around here it's the foreigners that appear to be worried & cutting back more than the Spanish .


Yes, you've got a point.
Speaking personally the price of petrol's hurting me and the electricity and gas bills are high.

However, if you've still got your job and you want to buy, there are some good deals to be had in restaurants, bars and shops. Last week I went round the shops and I think they've brought the price of the new stock of clothes right down. I saw light cotton jumpers for 12.99€ in about 3 shops, trousers 19.99€, t shirts at @ 7.99€. I don't usually buy until the sales, but I might get a few things at those prices.


----------



## nigele2

mrypg9 said:


> Gus, I have pointed out several times that 24% may be unemployed...but 76% aren't.


The problem with this Mary is that 6% unemployment may reflect a country gaining wealth, 10% may be sustainable with a break even strategy, and 24% may represent a downward spiral from which one cannot recover without defaulting.

If you have 40% of 16 to 25 year olds unemployed, and no growth, in 10 years time you end up with close to 40% of 26 to 35 year olds with no experience. This age group spawns job creation and wealth in a big way. Now you could say that as the years go by some of this group should get the jobs of those retiring. But of course that effect, if it is real, has been greatly reduced by moving the retirement age out. 

It is a matter of a sustainable society. Spain IMHO does not have one. It is certain to fail it's people. If it was a company it would be bankrupt. As many are now realising countries are not that much different from companies.

We also when using the stats need to remember that 76% employed is not 76% of the population working.


----------



## jojo

nigele2 said:


> The problem with this Mary is that 6% unemployment may reflect a country gaining wealth, 10% may be sustainable with a break even strategy, and 24% may represent a downward spiral from which one cannot recover without defaulting.
> 
> If you have 40% of 16 to 25 year olds unemployed, and no growth, in 10 years time you end up with close to 40% of 26 to 35 year olds with no experience. This age group spawns job creation and wealth in a big way. Now you could say that as the years go by some of this group should get the jobs of those retiring. But of course that effect, if it is real, has been greatly reduced by moving the retirement age out.
> 
> It is a matter of a sustainable society. Spain IMHO does not have one. It is certain to fail it's people. If it was a company it would be bankrupt. As many are now realising countries are not that much different from companies.
> 
> We also when using the stats need to remember that 76% employed is not 76% of the population working.


...... and lets not forget these figures can only ever relate to those who register - there are many, many who, as we know, spend their entire working lives "on the black"!!!

Jo xxx


----------



## jimenato

mrypg9 said:


> Should a couple earning jointly £400k a year or more receive Child Benefit?
> What's wrong with means testing the better-off?
> 
> I have yet to hear a sound justification for universal benefits.


Yup - I'm with you on this one. No rich kid should receive the benefit of free education when their parents can afford to pay for it and no rich person should receive the benefit of free healthcare either when they could perfectly well afford to go private.


----------



## gus-lopez

jimenato said:


> Yup - I'm with you on this one. No rich kid should receive the benefit of free education when their parents can afford to pay for it and no rich person should receive the benefit of free healthcare either when they could perfectly well afford to go private.


I quite agree with you , but what is 'rich' to one is ' getting by ' to another !

We know people here who have 3 houses , 3 forms of income + pension; hardly spend anything & consider themselves just scraping by ! & they believe it ! 
Another couple who holiday when & were they want, golf 3x a week, new car whenever ; they just think they are normal !


----------



## mrypg9

nigele2 said:


> The problem with this Mary is that 6% unemployment may reflect a country gaining wealth, 10% may be sustainable with a break even strategy, and 24% may represent a downward spiral from which one cannot recover without defaulting.
> 
> If you have 40% of 16 to 25 year olds unemployed, and no growth, in 10 years time you end up with close to 40% of 26 to 35 year olds with no experience. This age group spawns job creation and wealth in a big way. Now you could say that as the years go by some of this group should get the jobs of those retiring. But of course that effect, if it is real, has been greatly reduced by moving the retirement age out.
> 
> It is a matter of a sustainable society. Spain IMHO does not have one. It is certain to fail it's people. If it was a company it would be bankrupt. As many are now realising countries are not that much different from companies.
> 
> We also when using the stats need to remember that 76% employed is not 76% of the population working.


But Spain is far from being bankrupt, Nigel.It may be illiquid but it is not insolvent and that is a very important distinction many people fail to recognise. It is still the EU's fourth largest economy, the debt and deficit are miniscule by EU standards and the country is stable. It's true that Spain has structural problemsfor which the Government seems to have no blueprint for dealing but at a time when austerity however temporary reigns that's not surprising.

The construction boom sucked in foreign cheap loans..but it was Spanish people and business which were the borrowers, not the Government, until the global crisis hit. That's why Spain has one of the highest rates of home ownership in the world and of course why so many people who borrowed on a high -and businesses too - are facing a debt repayment crisis.

The labour market must be made more flexible. It's tough but true. We have to face facts. You can give workers job protection, wage increases but at this point in the global crisis that is a recipe for disaster.

There is also a need for alternative investment sources as the government patently can't borrow much at current yields - although Spain's bond sales have been very positive.

There is no denying that many are suffering real hardship although we must be careful not to talk up the pessimism. But the fact remains that most people here are not feeling much impact from the bad situation. I meet Spanish people who have lost their jobs and are desperate....I meet people who have had to tighten their belts and do without a few things - and I meet people whose lives continue on their comfortable course.

Recovery in the US is giving a slight tap, if not a kick start, to the global economy. Within Spain there are companies which are investing domestically and overseas. It is vital now for the EU as a whole to ride the back of this slight recovery so the EU Commission backed by the IMF should be putting its money where its mouth is and actively promoting growth.


----------



## radicaldoc

we have lived here for 7 years and to our Spanish friends it hasn't made an iota of difference they don't have a crisis they still buy the same amount of food ,new cars, Houses for their kids. the get their income from olives and price for them has gone down but they still can afford new cars after the harvest. i think it only effects us brit's....


----------



## Pesky Wesky

radicaldoc said:


> we have lived here for 7 years and to our Spanish friends it hasn't made an iota of difference they don't have a crisis they still buy the same amount of food ,new cars, Houses for their kids. the get their income from olives and price for them has gone down but they still can afford new cars after the harvest. i think it only effects us brit's....


NO, it doesn't.
My husband has had 3 pay cuts I think it is, and reduced hours and more work. (teacher)
One of my BIL is on half pay. (journalist)
A friend's son has gone abroad to get work. (Bilingual - catering trade)
I work in several companies. All but one are downsizing. One had 500 employees about 3 years ago and was multinational. Today it has 20 something and is a national company. (call centre)
A cousin of my husband's has given up her "real" job to open a craft centre for children (Bilingual architect)
Etc, Etc


----------



## radicaldoc

Pesky Wesky said:


> NO, it doesn't.
> My husband has had 3 pay cuts I think it is, and reduced hours and more work. (teacher)
> One of my BIL is on half pay. (journalist)
> A friend's son has gone abroad to get work. (Bilingual - catering trade)
> I work in several companies. All but one are downsizing. One had 500 employees about 3 years ago and was multinational. Today it has 20 something and is a national company. (call centre)
> A cousin of my husband's has given up her "real" job to open a craft centre for children (Bilingual architect)
> Etc, Etc


As i said around here where it is all Olives it has made very little difference. As the majority of them work the Olives we have had a few go to work in the UK but only because they get much better wages when they return with English experience and speak English better. But that is around here and the people we know..


----------



## mickbcn

And the situation of Spain will be worse when we (Catalonia) get the independence next year.


----------



## Dunpleecin

Unemployment is everywhere. Spain is no different. OK unemployment is worse but it's still difficult to get a job.

The bottom line really is that if you need to work and don't have an offer of a job, don't bother. If you don't need the income or are retired, then take advantage of the low house prices and do it.


----------



## mickbcn

mrypg9 said:


> And how many of those kids needed 'free' laptops? Maybe some did but how many had parents who could afford to pay for them either wholly or in part?
> 
> The problem with cuts is that everyone has their 'sacred cow'. So if not universal access to 'free' computers...then what?
> 
> The whole idea of universal benefits is one that should be examined imo. I cannot see the justification for giving a millionaire a basic state pension or the child of an Andalucian family with an average or above average income a 'free' laptop at a time when the number of teachers is being drastically reduced.
> 
> I think there is a lot of unsubstantiated talk about the value of giving every child -or person - a 'free' computer. We have finally realised in the U.K. that the computer alone doesn't give you brownie points in life: it's the quality and kind of I.T. teaching that accompanies the possession of said device.
> 
> In spite of laptops being freely available to all children in the UK, we still lag far behind in the skilled use of said devices.....to the point where large numbers of people with the required skills, in short supply in the UK, are either working in the UK or via the net from the Asian sub-continent. Nigel could probably substantiate that...and my son hires Indian IT specialists as they are scarce in his speciality in the UK.
> 
> What evidence is there that spending money on 'free' laptops has benefited either the children of Andalucia or the people of the region as a whole?
> 
> My experience of young people and computers is that games, social networking and porn are likely to be the main activities they are used for...not furthering knowledge or learning programming skills.


Catalonia who contribute with 16 bn.each year must pay the computers of the andalucian children however catalans scholars musts pay the own computers. it is funny.


----------



## mrypg9

mickbcn said:


> And the situation of Spain will be worse when we (Catalonia) get the independence next year.


'If', Mick, 'If'

Remember I made a bet with you...now how much was it for....1000 euros????


----------



## xocolate

mickbcn said:


> And the situation of Spain will be worse when we (Catalonia) get the independence next year.


If... then they will not be a member of the EU. If... will you be needing a Visa for staying? If... will you even be allowed to work?


----------



## mickbcn

mrypg9 said:


> 'if', mick, 'if'
> 
> remember i made a bet with you...now how much was it for....1000 euros????


1000 euros????? Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh... Hehehehe


----------



## Pesky Wesky

:focus:I vote that the Catalan Independance discussion group get their own thread, and *When* you get it, not *If*, you can discuss to your hearts content!!! 
:focus:


----------



## MarianD

*Spain and Uk*

Theres not a lot of difference between UK and Spain No jobs there either and the worst government ever running it, Its better to be here in Spain as its so depressing in UK anyway with rising prices, usually bad weather and a government that are useless unless youre rich and can afford good housing and healthcare.


----------



## xabiaxica

MarianD said:


> Theres not a lot of difference between UK and Spain No jobs there either and the worst government ever running it, Its better to be here in Spain as its so depressing in UK anyway with rising prices, usually bad weather and a government that are useless unless youre rich and can afford good housing and healthcare.


no sorry...

if you can come to Spain or are already in Spain with a good (or even reasonable) income - I agree

but Spain with no income is infinitely worse - there's no real help at all - for anyone & unemployment here is 3 times that of the UK


----------



## mickbcn

xocolate said:


> If... then they will not be a member of the EU. If... will you be needing a Visa for staying? If... will you even be allowed to work?


Nobody knows if we will be inside the european union... but if we can't be inside then Spain is sure that can't be a member with his economy at the level of Bulgaria.. hehe. .. maybe will be excellent thing for the expats because must abandone the euro and devalue the new currency..will be excelent for pensioners who recive their pensions in pounds.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

More on *Spain*
Hinrichs said the people of Spain and Portugal had already proven they were willing to bear with austerity measures, but “this cannot continue forever”.
S&P warns of ‘socially explosive’ situation in Spain, Italy and France | Financial Post


----------



## mrypg9

MarianD said:


> Theres not a lot of difference between UK and Spain No jobs there either and the worst government ever running it, *Its better to be* *here in Spain* as its so depressing in UK anyway with rising prices, usually bad weather and a government that are useless unless youre rich and can afford good housing and healthcare.


Yes...if you have no money worries. But if you are unemployed or low paid the UK is a much better place to be. No Housing Benefit, Working Family Tax Credit or Child Benefit here..
Sunshine doesn't put a roof over your head or food on the table, sadly..


----------



## Aron

mickbcn said:


> Nobody knows if we will be inside the european union... but if we can't be inside then Spain is sure that can't be a member with his economy at the level of Bulgaria.. hehe. .. maybe will be excellent thing for the expats because must abandone the euro and devalue the new currency..will be excelent for pensioners who recive their pensions in pounds.


I think that's a blinkered point of view. The best for expats wherever you live is for your new country to have prosperity. Independence guarantees you nothing and in the present climate, it could get much worse after independence.
Spain exports more than it imports some months now. Much of that is agriculture, olives, avocados, ceraeals, meat products etc. Most of those imports are not grown in Catalonia. Spain as a whole needs more industry, more manufacturing, the economy is stagnating everywhere. In 1873 in the UK, the recession then, the UK economy stagnated for 20 years. There is no quick fix, it will take a long time to cure the ills we have. Agriculture is low intensity employment, Spain needs jobs, but I for one cannot see a light near the end of the tunnel


----------



## fourgotospain

MarianD said:


> Theres not a lot of difference between UK and Spain No jobs there either and the worst government ever running it, Its better to be here in Spain as its so depressing in UK anyway with rising prices, usually bad weather and a government that are useless unless youre rich and can afford good housing and healthcare.


Nope. There are jobs on all levels, prices are higher but so are wages, and the weather...well it's fine. We have a properly regulated rental market and banking system.

We earn too much for tax credits etc, but we do only pay a small percentage of our salaries in National Insurance and still have free healthcare, free eye tests, free dental checkups. 

We have free museums, beautiful parks and shops with proper customer service and choice.

To be fair I don't read the Daily Mail though.


----------



## xgarb

mickbcn said:


> Catalonia who contribute with 16 bn.each year must pay the computers of the andalucian children however catalans scholars musts pay the own computers. it is funny.


But they get to enjoy our sunshine in return!


----------



## 213979

Pesky Wesky said:


> More on *Spain*
> Hinrichs said the people of Spain and Portugal had already proven they were willing to bear with austerity measures, but “this cannot continue forever”.
> S&P warns of ‘socially explosive’ situation in Spain, Italy and France | Financial Post


Good try getting the thread back to talking about Spain... :fingerscrossed:

One question though: After the whole ratings deal with the US and Spain, should we REALLY even listen to S&P?


----------



## Pesky Wesky

elenetxu said:


> Good try getting the thread back to talking about Spain... :fingerscrossed:
> 
> One question though: After the whole ratings deal with the US and Spain, should we REALLY even listen to S&P?


I don't really know, but it was the first article I came upon which I thought might possibly focus people on the SPAIN part of the thread, hahaha


----------



## 213979

Pesky Wesky said:


> I don't really know, but it was the first article I came upon which I thought might possibly focus people on the SPAIN part of the thread, hahaha


I sincerely appreciate your efforts. I'm in a Spain forum because if I were interested in the situation in the UK/UK politics, I'd be over on the UK board


----------



## Pesky Wesky

elenetxu said:


> I sincerely appreciate your efforts. I'm in a Spain forum because if I were interested in the situation in the UK/UK politics, I'd be over on the UK board


Oh.
I just didn't want the thread to become a discussion about Catalan independance


----------



## 213979

Pesky Wesky said:


> Oh.
> I just didn't want the thread to become a discussion about Catalan independance


I hadn't read the last page before I posted my comment. Mia culpa, I had only seen the UK comments...


----------



## fessex

Do you think Spain will ever return to pre 2008 unemployment levels? My heart breaks for all the people in Spain struggling and suffering. It's surreal.


----------



## xxxxxxxxxxxxxdeanhankin

Well said. 

I came back from Spain due to lack of work in 2007, potless and homeless, I even had to borrow the money for the flight back! lane:

Even though I was at the time (and still am) "footloose and fancy free" I can tell you it was no fun living in a static caravan on a friends back yard for 6 months, in winter with no running water. 

All my own fault for not planning ahead I know :fingerscrossed: but who cares when you're in their twenties? I had a job lined up before I left England but when that finished abruptly I was stuck with bills mounting and no income 

If your like me and don't know the language all I can say is it's very tricky to understand never mind master, you might have done the Michel Thomas course on CD but the real thing is completely different


I found out what a rainy day really looks like when I got back to England, it was worse coming back with no money, no job, no housing and not a chance of me asking for anything from the Government (they can keep their err... (your) money) 

It took me about 5 years to get back to what I previously had in England and I would seriously advise anyone thinking of trying such a move to think long and hard about the consequences of returning to England with nothing.

I didn't think I had a lot to lose by going to Spain as I didn't have a lot before I went but to come back and have absolutely nothing is a real education.

I've been back to the same area of Spain a few times since I left and there's no way I would attemp it with how things are now, even though I'm a million times better prepared.

I had a nicetime in the sun though  



Pesky Wesky said:


> If you don't want to know about the dire situation Spain is in at the moment, DON'T read any further!
> 
> According to the OECD (Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development)
> 
> _España tardará 15 años en reducir el paro a tasas previas a la crisis. No será hasta 2026 cuando la economía española verá caer el paro hasta el 8,9%, cerca ya del 8,6% que registraba al cierre de 2007, según las nuevas previsiones hechas públicas ayer por la Organización para la Cooperación y el Desarrollo Económico (OCDE), que empeora los pronósticos que hizo en noviembre. La institución que dirige Ángel Gurría reiteró que para mejorar esa situación es necesario modificar la negociación colectiva y reducir las indemnizaciones por despido_
> 
> _*Spain will take 15 years to reduce unemployment to pre-crisis levels,* according to the OECD
> Spain will take 15 years to reduce unemployment to pre-crisis rate. It will not be until 2026 when the Spanish economy will see unemployment fall to 8.9%, close and from 8.6% recorded at the end of 2007, according to new projections released yesterday by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), which worsens the forecast made ​​in November. The institution he leads Angel Gurria reiterated that to improve this situation is necessary to amend the collective bargaining and reduce redundancy._
> 
> OK, somebody, somewhere will get a job, but will it be Mr. Smith from the UK who speaks conversational Spanish (¿Dónde está la farmacia?), whose qualifications are not recognised here, whose family is all back in the UK and who doesn't know the town, nor the city nor the country, OR will the job go to Pepe Pérez, who is bilingual, knows the place and who'll work from 8:00 to 20:00 without batting an eyelid???
> 
> My objective is NOT to spread bad news, put people off, kill the dream, crow over those who are not here.
> 
> I just think people in the UK have little idea of what's happening in Spain and the more info they have the better. The general idea is if you need to work to finance your life in Spain you need a sure job offer before you make the move, or a UK job you can do from home over the internet, or somebody who works off shore, or you are single footloose and fancy free and can go back and pickup your life in the UK if things don't work out here ...
> 
> Good luck to those who decide to come


----------



## mrypg9

deanhankin said:


> Well said.
> 
> I came back from Spain due to lack of work in 2007, potless and homeless, I even had to borrow the money for the flight back! lane:
> 
> Even though I was at the time (and still am) "footloose and fancy free" I can tell you it was no fun living in a static caravan on a friends back yard for 6 months, in winter with no running water.
> 
> All my own fault for not planning ahead I know :fingerscrossed: but who cares when you're in their twenties? I had a job lined up before I left England but when that finished abruptly I was stuck with bills mounting and no income
> 
> If your like me and don't know the language all I can say is it's very tricky to understand never mind master, you might have done the Michel Thomas course on CD but the real thing is completely different
> 
> 
> I found out what a rainy day really looks like when I got back to England, it was worse coming back with no money, no job, no housing and not a chance of me asking for anything from the Government (they can keep their err... (your) money)
> 
> It took me about 5 years to get back to what I previously had in England and I would seriously advise anyone thinking of trying such a move to think long and hard about the consequences of returning to England with nothing.
> 
> I didn't think I had a lot to lose by going to Spain as I didn't have a lot before I went but to come back and have absolutely nothing is a real education.
> 
> I've been back to the same area of Spain a few times since I left and there's no way I would attemp it with how things are now, even though I'm a million times better prepared.
> 
> I had a nicetime in the sun though


Sorry to hear about your bad experiences but it's good that you've bounced back.
Your story should be compulsory reading for all those wannabe immigrants who think the Spain of 2013 is like the Spainof ten or twenty years ago.


----------



## xxxxxxxxxxxxxdeanhankin

Thanks MRYPG9 thing was, Spain was Great while it lasted.....

I don't think the Spain of now is like it was prior 2008 financial crash, when I go back there's just not the same buzz from the people. 

The whole things a lot more subdued, understandable really.


----------



## jojo

deanhankin said:


> Thanks MRYPG9 thing was, Spain was Great while it lasted.....
> 
> I don't think the Spain of now is like it was prior 2008 financial crash, when I go back there's just not the same buzz from the people.
> 
> The whole things a lot more subdued, understandable really.



Its with real sorrow that I have to agree with you Dean 

Jo xxx


----------



## Loodles

Hi Pesky Wesky and everyone!

I'm brand new to this site / forum and I was immediately attracted to your post for its title as I am thinking of relocating to northern Spain ( in Blighty at the moment!)

I am self employed and if I relocated I would be bringing my business with me and would employ a local workforce. It would be a prerequisite for employees to speak fluent English. My questions to anyone who might know are:

1/ Are there any grants available to new businesses offering employment opportunities for nationals / people of all ages including younger people?

2/ How well do you think a UK business relocating to northern Spain would be received by locals, local business community and potential job seekers?

3/ Can anyone recommend further resources I can look at to help me form a better idea as to whether this is a potentially viable idea.

Thanks very much in advance 

Loodles


----------



## mrypg9

Loodles said:


> Hi Pesky Wesky and everyone!
> 
> I'm brand new to this site / forum and I was immediately attracted to your post for its title as I am thinking of relocating to northern Spain ( in Blighty at the moment!)
> 
> I am self employed and if I relocated I would be bringing my business with me and would employ a local workforce. It would be a prerequisite for employees to speak fluent English. My questions to anyone who might know are:
> 
> 1/ Are there any grants available to new businesses offering employment opportunities for nationals / people of all ages including younger people?
> 
> 2/ How well do you think a UK business relocating to northern Spain would be received by locals, local business community and potential job seekers?
> 
> 3/ Can anyone recommend further resources I can look at to help me form a better idea as to whether this is a potentially viable idea.
> 
> Thanks very much in advance
> 
> Loodles


I doubt very much whether you would be eligible for any grants but others who know more will doubtless advise you.
As for Point Two...how would locals in a n area of low unemployment in the UK welcome a new business that wanted to employ only Spanish speakers?

I can't speak for Northern Spain but I'd say your chances here in Andalucia would be low to zero, tbh.


----------



## mrypg9

deanhankin said:


> Thanks MRYPG9 thing was, Spain was Great while it lasted.....
> 
> I don't think the Spain of now is like it was prior 2008 financial crash, when I go back there's just not the same buzz from the people.
> 
> The whole things a lot more subdued, understandable really.


We get posts telling us that 'all that is needed to succeed' is 'a good business plan and hard work'.

I'd be interested in your comments on that, Dean.


----------



## Hombre62

Loodles said:


> 1/ Are there any grants available to new businesses offering employment opportunities for nationals / people of all ages including younger people?
> 
> 2/ How well do you think a UK business relocating to northern Spain would be received by locals, local business community and potential job seekers?
> 
> 3/ Can anyone recommend further resources I can look at to help me form a better idea as to whether this is a potentially viable idea.


There is an (admittedly labyrinthine) EU grant system for companies creating employment. You will probably need specialist help - which in itself may be partially grant aided.

Much depends on the type of business, and the calibre of employment created. You will find that most Spanish citizens in possession of a second or third level educational qualification have a second (or third) language, frequently English.

Suggested reading here:

Starting up - Your Europe - Business

here:

Business support - Your Europe - Business

and here:

Staff - Your Europe - Business

I wish you the very best with your venture. I'm sure you're used to ignoring the nay-sayers.


----------



## Filsh

mrypg9 said:


> We get posts telling us that 'all that is needed to succeed' is 'a good business plan and hard work'.
> 
> I'd be interested in your comments on that, Dean.


Hi there,

I just want to put my tuppence worth in regarding setting up a business. 
I have experience in working in over 30 countries and I started my business in the middle of the worst recession in living memory in an industry heavily affected by the financial crisis (Recruitment Services). My company recruits people throughout Europe, Asia and the Americas so I do have some knowledge of how the recession has affected many countries including Spain (and before anyone asks I do also recruit into Spain...Madrid). I was told by many people that I was one step away from the mental asylum by even considering starting up a business on my own with little capital in one of the deepest recessions in history. But I do believe that a large part of this recession continuing is down to the naysayers of this world. I honestly believe that the only way for people to succeed is to try and keep on trying until one succeeds. I see a pattern around the world, of countries with a real 'can do' attitude that are seeing real growth and green shoots of improvement. I am not saying that anyone with a glimmer of an idea should just pack up their bags and start up a business in a new country but would advise anyone looking at starting up business to do their due diligence and once you think you have covered all bases, do the due diligence again.... and then again.


----------



## 213979

Loodles said:


> Hi Pesky Wesky and everyone!
> 
> I'm brand new to this site / forum and I was immediately attracted to your post for its title as I am thinking of relocating to northern Spain ( in Blighty at the moment!)
> 
> I am self employed and if I relocated I would be bringing my business with me and would employ a local workforce. It would be a prerequisite for employees to speak fluent English. My questions to anyone who might know are:
> 
> 1/ Are there any grants available to new businesses offering employment opportunities for nationals / people of all ages including younger people?
> 
> 2/ How well do you think a UK business relocating to northern Spain would be received by locals, local business community and potential job seekers?
> 
> 3/ Can anyone recommend further resources I can look at to help me form a better idea as to whether this is a potentially viable idea.
> 
> Thanks very much in advance
> 
> Loodles



What field are you in?


----------



## mrypg9

Filsh said:


> Hi there,
> 
> I just want to put my tuppence worth in regarding setting up a business.
> I have experience in working in over 30 countries and I started my business in the middle of the worst recession in living memory in an industry heavily affected by the financial crisis (Recruitment Services). My company recruits people throughout Europe, Asia and the Americas so I do have some knowledge of how the recession has affected many countries including Spain (and before anyone asks I do also recruit into Spain...Madrid). I was told by many people that I was one step away from the mental asylum by even considering starting up a business on my own with little capital in one of the deepest recessions in history. But I do believe that a large part of this recession continuing is down to the naysayers of this world. I honestly believe that the only way for people to succeed is to try and keep on trying until one succeeds. I see a pattern around the world, of countries with a real 'can do' attitude that are seeing real growth and green shoots of improvement. I am not saying that anyone with a glimmer of an idea should just pack up their bags and start up a business in a new country but would advise anyone looking at starting up business to do their due diligence and once you think you have covered all bases, do the due diligence again.... and then again.


Well, that's good. but Spain isn't the only country in which you do business...


----------



## Filsh

mrypg9 said:


> Well, that's good. but Spain isn't the only country in which you do business...


Yes that is true, but I was really trying to the point across that without people taking calculated risks and having drive and some kind of entrepreneurial spirit then very little would be achieved anywhere. As I mentioned previously, I wouldn't advise anyone to set up business anywhere, including Spain, without doing lots of homework but at the same time I would not discourage people from exploring opportunities. Spain obviously has major problems and inward investment whether from SME's or MNC's should be encouraged not deterred.


----------



## mrypg9

Filsh said:


> Yes that is true, but I was really trying to the point across that without people taking calculated risks and having drive and some kind of entrepreneurial spirit then very little would be achieved anywhere. As I mentioned previously, I wouldn't advise anyone to set up business anywhere, including Spain, without doing lots of homework but at the same time I would not discourage people from exploring opportunities. Spain obviously has major problems and inward investment whether from SME's or MNC's should be encouraged not deterred.


Yes, I've said before it would be nice if immigrants came to Spain with enough investment capital to set up businesses making things and employing skilled local staff.
But most posters who come on this Forum hoping to start businesses don't have those intentions.
They are mainly if not exclusively in the service sector, one-person outfits, I'm guessing very little capital, very few with knowledge of Spanish, some with no previous business experience..
Opening a bar/cafe/restaurant, hairdressing salon, tiling/carpentry/plumbing etc. business in Spain at this time without a solid base to start from -and even then - is a short cut to penury, as I'm sure you'd agree.
A small business in Southend may not transfer smoothly to Salou...
We owned an SME in the UK, successful enough to provide very early retirement for OH. We made and mended things. No way would we have given one nanosecond's thought to transferring it to Spain..


----------



## Filsh

mrypg9 said:


> Yes, I've said before it would be nice if immigrants came to Spain with enough investment capital to set up businesses making things and employing skilled local staff.
> But most posters who come on this Forum hoping to start businesses don't have those intentions.
> They are mainly if not exclusively in the service sector, one-person outfits, I'm guessing very little capital, very few with knowledge of Spanish, some with no previous business experience..
> Opening a bar/cafe/restaurant, hairdressing salon, tiling/carpentry/plumbing etc. business in Spain at this time without a solid base to start from -and even then - is a short cut to penury, as I'm sure you'd agree.
> A small business in Southend may not transfer smoothly to Salou...
> We owned an SME in the UK, successful enough to provide very early retirement for OH. We made and mended things. No way would we have given one nanosecond's thought to transferring it to Spain..


Completely agree with that! But with the poster Loodles from Essex, they mentioned that they would employ a local workforce (presumably Spanish residents with English language fluency); IMHO I feel it does warrant some enthusiasm. It would be good to know what their business is and how that would translate into the Spanish market but without knowing the details at the moment, I would hope that a company that would be hiring locals, paying salaries & tax (even in a small way) it would be welcomed by the local community?


----------



## mrypg9

Filsh said:


> Completely agree with that! But with the poster Loodles from Essex, they mentioned that they would employ a local workforce (presumably Spanish residents with English language fluency); IMHO I feel it does warrant some enthusiasm. It would be good to know what their business is and how that would translate into the Spanish market but without knowing the details at the moment, I would hope that a company that would be hiring locals, paying salaries & tax (even in a small way) it would be welcomed by the local community?


True, I guess...

I live in a supposedly affluent area with staggeringly high unemployment among the local people. Over one in three out of work and low pay and long hours for those in work.
It amuses me when I read that all you need to succeed is determination and hard work. Luck and contingency are equally if not more important, as any truly successful businessperson knows.


----------



## Hombre62

mrypg9 said:


> It amuses me when I read that all you need to succeed is determination and hard work. Luck and contingency are equally if not more important, as any truly successful businessperson knows.


It must be very frustrating for an accomplished businessperson such as yourself to suffer the constant irritatations of such ignorant and ill-informed opinions.

No doubt the vast personal wealth that you have acccumulated stands as testimony to your incisive entrepeneurial expertise.

We are not worthy.


----------



## jojo

Hombre62 said:


> It must be very frustrating for an accomplished businessperson such as yourself to suffer the constant irritatations of such ignorant and ill-informed opinions.
> 
> No doubt the vast personal wealth that you have acccumulated stands as testimony to your incisive entrepeneurial expertise.
> 
> We are not worthy.


Its a cross poor old MRYPG9 has to bare.............. or is that bear???? lol!!!!!

Jo xxxx


----------



## mrypg9

Hombre62 said:


> It must be very frustrating for an accomplished businessperson such as yourself to suffer the constant irritatations of such ignorant and ill-informed opinions.
> 
> No doubt the vast personal wealth that you have acccumulated stands as testimony to your incisive entrepeneurial expertise.
> 
> We are not worthy.


Everything you say is true. Now I'm off for a trip in the Rolls...when I've finished my Veuve Cliquot.

If you need advice, I'll give you a discounted rate


----------



## mrypg9

Seriously, though, Dean's story is very instructive. No doubt he worked hard, was entrepreneurial, was prepared to take risks and so on.
But the title of this thread tells the truth. 
If you think you have a business project which might be worthwhile investigating in Spain, there are an awful lot of factors to consider. Thorough market research, time spent getting to know your chosen area and very important...having sufficient capital to see you through any problems which might arise.
Young David in Benalmadena has the right approach, taking things slowly, has backup in the 
UK....
People need to be given the facts then they should come and see for themselves what opportunities there are in their chosen part of Spain. Imo it's wrong to give facile encouragement from a sun lounger when people's futures are at stake.
And I repeat: luck and events, good or bad, play a huge role in business success. We were hugely lucky to have packed everything up in 2005. Three years later and we could still have been in the UK, working.


----------



## mrypg9

Hombre62 said:


> There is an (admittedly labyrinthine) EU grant system for companies creating employment. You will probably need specialist help - which in itself may be partially grant aided.
> 
> Much depends on the type of business, and the calibre of employment created. You will find that most Spanish citizens in possession of a second or third level educational qualification have a second (or third) language, frequently English.
> 
> Suggested reading here:
> 
> Starting up - Your Europe - Business
> 
> here:
> 
> Business support - Your Europe - Business
> 
> and here:
> 
> Staff - Your Europe - Business
> 
> I wish you the very best with your venture. I'm sure you're used to ignoring the nay-sayers.



These links lead to sites that are rather generalised. There are more useful threads here from people like Xavia who know a great deal about business procedures specific to Spain.


----------



## jojo

IMO Spain is its own worst enemy tho. It does little to encourage small scale investments or entrepreneurial enterprises, with its taxes, autonomo rules, employment taxes, slow, complicated and sometimes pointless permits, licences, rules etc.... 

Jo xxx


----------



## xabiaxica

jojo said:


> IMO Spain is its own worst enemy tho. It does little to encourage small scale investments or entrepreneurial enterprises, with its taxes, autonomo rules, employment taxes, slow, complicated and sometimes pointless permits, licences, rules etc....
> 
> Jo xxx


the only thing really different to the UK is the self-employment/autónomo payments - & that's changing

later this year, all new autónomo registrations will only have to pay 50€ a month for the first year ( I think it's only a year, might not be) 

that has to be a great incentive to boost those with an entrepreneurial spirit get get started!


----------



## mrypg9

xabiachica said:


> the only thing really different to the UK is the self-employment/autónomo payments - & that's changing
> 
> later this year, all new autónomo registrations will only have to pay 50€ a month for the first year ( I think it's only a year, might not be)
> 
> that has to be a great incentive to boost those with an entrepreneurial spirit get get started!


Anything that gets almost seven million Spaniards off the dole queue is welcome.

There seems though to be a serious structural gap between regions which needs attention. I seem to remember PW or someone -maybe you? - posting a chart showing the huge variations in regional unemployment. 

As everyone knows, Andalucia is one f the worst hit regions and Malaga one of the worst hit provinces. There is very little economic activity other than tourism and agriculture. Sometimes I think every other person here is either a gardener/pool maintenance person or a sex worker. That is not meant to be a joke. Just look at the ads in the local press.

Although it's thankfully of no practical interest to me, I've thought long and hard whilst lying on my lounger thinking what kind of business might be viable here but can come up with nothing.
With unemployment at 34% or more, immigrants going home in droves -I know a dozen or more who have gone and many more who'd like to but are stuck in unsaleable properties - and a glut of property for sale, it's hard to be optimistic. Xavia's forecast of even higher national average unemployment next year adds to the gloom here as tourism is visibly down even on last year.

And yet life is peaceful and people are their usual smiling selves...and still giving what they can afford to our charity...and as usual, those with the least give the most. We have a Spanish friend who does sewing on a piecework basis. She recently earned *four euros *in one working day. Yet she feeds stray cats and dogs and gives to ADANA.

And I'm damned sure she is hardworking and determined to feed her family, of which she is the sole breadwinner. Her whole life is based on risk of the wrong kind. She is not the only person in that position. We see many like her in our charity shop in Estepona.


----------



## mrypg9

The woman who earned 4 euros for a day's work gets 20% of the work she does for a woman who owns a little dressmaking business. She also recently spent two whole days at the local market and made 23 euros...


People who talk about drive, hard work etc. forget how many people are already working every day God sends just so theycan keep themselves and their families with a roof over their heads.
Businesses need customers with disposable income and there aren't as many of those about these days.

I have to say that if we didn't work for ADANA we wouldn't come into contact with so many people like this. Our charity shop is a very good indicator of how things are on the street. If you spend time in the comparative affluence of immigrant communities in largely immigrant areas you might be totally unaware of how much hardship there is out there. We certainly didn't have a clue before.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> Anything that gets almost seven million Spaniards off the dole queue is welcome.
> There seems though to be a serious structural gap between regions which needs attention. I seem to remember PW or someone -maybe you? - posting a chart showing the huge variations in regional unemployment.
> 
> *ME! Just popping in from Asturias... It's a different world up here, I can tell you. Green mountains right next to pebble beaches with 0 - 5 people on them... Incredible.
> *
> Although it's thankfully of no practical interest to me, I've thought long and hard whilst lying on my lounger thinking what kind of business might be viable here but can come up with nothing.
> [I*]When you've worked it out, let me know!!
> I'm a deserving cause!!
> Bye for now. Cyber cafe time up[/I]
> *



***


----------



## Sirtravelot

jojo said:


> IMO Spain is its own worst enemy tho. It does little to encourage small scale investments or entrepreneurial enterprises, with its taxes, autonomo rules, employment taxes, slow, complicated and sometimes pointless permits, licences, rules etc....
> 
> Jo xxx


I had to rub my eyes for a second. I thought I was in the Portugal forum.


----------



## xxxxxxxxxxxxxdeanhankin

mrypg9 said:


> Seriously, though, Dean's story is very instructive. No doubt he worked hard, was entrepreneurial, was prepared to take risks and so on.
> But the title of this thread tells the truth.
> If you think you have a business project which might be worthwhile investigating in Spain, there are an awful lot of factors to consider. Thorough market research, time spent getting to know your chosen area and very important...having sufficient capital to see you through any problems which might arise.
> Young David in Benalmadena has the right approach, taking things slowly, has backup in the
> UK....
> People need to be given the facts then they should come and see for themselves what opportunities there are in their chosen part of Spain. Imo it's wrong to give facile encouragement from a sun lounger when people's futures are at stake.
> And I repeat: luck and events, good or bad, play a huge role in business success. We were hugely lucky to have packed everything up in 2005. Three years later and we could still have been in the UK, working.




Your very correct mrypg9 and I whole heartedly agree with your comments on this. 

When I decided to go over to Spain I was more than willing to work and I had secured a job with an English builder prior to leaving. What I hadn't banked on was that it would take me so long to pick up the lingo, working with other English guys gave me no time to interact with the locals so that quickly went out of the window. Although we used to go to Spanish bars and restaurants all the guys on the firm always hung around together, it's natural when your in a foreign place to want to find a little familiarality

You don't often see the error of your ways until it is presented to you on a plate! Whilst I should of been networking with Spaniards, learning the lingo and formulating an exit strategy I was having a nice life and not worrying too much about what lay ahead because I was young, free and single...Right?

When the savings have all gone, the work/wages dry up and the apartment still needs paying for you quickly realise that your in a foreign land with no support, whether that be from friends, family, government or whatever, this is usually the point when the SUR in English comes out and you start calling people up to try and find work, only to realise that Spains quite a big place and you need transport, add in all the wonderfully complex employment legislation and the fantastic red tape they have over there and you quickly start to see yourself in quite a tricky situation 

Now I'm no mug, I had for over 6 years owned a sucessful Leather Upholstery manufacturing company in the midlands with a good turnover and several staff but due to large inflows of cheap leather furniture from China and Poland I decided to close the business, trade was dwindling and it made no sense to carry on running the thing into the ground when I could walk away with the shirt on my back.

So off I set on my little adventure....... like I said I'm no fool and as one of five kids coming from one of the poorer areas of the country, not frightened of getting out and about and having a go either. 

I cringe at times when I read some posts (not always on here) with people asking "will it be ok to set up a dog grooming business" or whatever it is. Personally I have a huge range of skills from just about anything in the building trade, to welding, to my main skill of master furniture maker but if you don't know the game then you can't play and I quickly found out that it doesn't matter what you can do in England, when you have no reputation you might as well not have the skills either.

Until you put yourself in that situation you just don't know what your going to do or how it will work out, on the one hand it was a bad experience for me in the end but overall I wouldn't swap it for the world, it has made me a better person and led me into new and better times. 

If you have the balls to do it, good for you but you better have the cash and the vision to back it up with and don't let anyone tell you it's only a 3 hour flight away blah blah blah, it might as well be the other side of the moon for what it's worth

I hope this helps, although it's not very positive I do feel it's a honest account of my experience. I'm not trying to put anyone off but lot's of people who were successful when i was over there are now completely potless and their wonderful Spnish villa's and 500 000 sq metre plots of land are depreciating capital assetts that they can't give away or afford to maintain.

Best of luck, I really mean that


----------



## jojo

deanhankin said:


> Your very correct mrypg9 and I whole heartedly agree with your comments on this.
> 
> When I decided to go over to Spain I was more than willing to work and I had secured a job with an English builder prior to leaving. What I hadn't banked on was that it would take me so long to pick up the lingo, working with other English guys gave me no time to interact with the locals so that quickly went out of the window. Although we used to go to Spanish bars and restaurants all the guys on the firm always hung around together, it's natural when your in a foreign place to want to find a little familiarality
> 
> You don't often see the error of your ways until it is presented to you on a plate! Whilst I should of been networking with Spaniards, learning the lingo and formulating an exit strategy I was having a nice life and not worrying too much about what lay ahead because I was young, free and single...Right?
> 
> When the savings have all gone, the work/wages dry up and the apartment still needs paying for you quickly realise that your in a foreign land with no support, whether that be from friends, family, government or whatever, this is usually the point when the SUR in English comes out and you start calling people up to try and find work, only to realise that Spains quite a big place and you need transport, add in all the wonderfully complex employment legislation and the fantastic red tape they have over there and you quickly start to see yourself in quite a tricky situation
> 
> Now I'm no mug, I had for over 6 years owned a sucessful Leather Upholstery manufacturing company in the midlands with a good turnover and several staff but due to large inflows of cheap leather furniture from China and Poland I decided to close the business, trade was dwindling and it made no sense to carry on running the thing into the ground when I could walk away with the shirt on my back.
> 
> So off I set on my little adventure....... like I said I'm no fool and as one of five kids coming from one of the poorer areas of the country, not frightened of getting out and about and having a go either.
> 
> I cringe at times when I read some posts (not always on here) with people asking "will it be ok to set up a dog grooming business" or whatever it is. Personally I have a huge range of skills from just about anything in the building trade, to welding, to my main skill of master furniture maker but if you don't know the game then you can't play and I quickly found out that it doesn't matter what you can do in England, when you have no reputation you might as well not have the skills either.
> 
> Until you put yourself in that situation you just don't know what your going to do or how it will work out, on the one hand it was a bad experience for me in the end but overall I wouldn't swap it for the world, it has made me a better person and led me into new and better times.
> 
> If you have the balls to do it, good for you but you better have the cash and the vision to back it up with and don't let anyone tell you it's only a 3 hour flight away blah blah blah, it might as well be the other side of the moon for what it's worth
> 
> I hope this helps, although it's not very positive I do feel it's a honest account of my experience. I'm not trying to put anyone off but lot's of people who were successful when i was over there are now completely potless and their wonderful Spnish villa's and 500 000 sq metre plots of land are depreciating capital assetts that they can't give away or afford to maintain.
> 
> Best of luck, I really mean that


Well, thats hit the nail well and truly on the head!

Jo xx


----------



## xxxxxxxxxxxxxdeanhankin

jojo said:


> Well, thats hit the nail well and truly on the head!
> 
> Jo xx


Sorry it's off topic but Hi Jo, are you still on the raw food diet


----------



## jojo

deanhankin said:


> Sorry it's off topic but Hi Jo, are you still on the raw food diet


LOL - its not a raw food diet , its high fat, low carbohydrate!

Jo xxx


----------



## xxxxxxxxxxxxxdeanhankin

jojo said:


> LOL - its not a raw food diet , its high fat, low carbohydrate!
> 
> Jo xxx


Ha ha ha my bad, I'm on a 30 day juice fast at the moment, only n day 4 and nearly dead already lol :hungry:


----------



## Davidinspain

Great post so true, but after living here for 14 years now the main reason most brits do not stay is down to not bothering to learn Spanish. i am still shocked at how many brits come to spain with the idea of living here for good but do not bother to learn the language. Just last week a had a British guy tell me he was looing for work here in my local town and when i asked him what he wanted to do he said that he was looking the work in a car hire firm. i asked if he spoke good spanish and he shocked me when he said that did did not speak spanish but would only be working with the british people.What about the paperwork and the office work telephone calls and so on. i guess he will be coming back down to earth soon.


----------



## Dunpleecin

It's no better in the uk really.


----------



## mrypg9

Dunpleecin said:


> It's no better in the uk really.


I think many Spaniards would disagree. How many Spaniards have emigrated to the UK in search of work? How many long-term unemployed receive no income whatsoever from the state?
In the UK there is unemployment pay, Working Family Tax Credit, Pension Credit, Housing Benefit , Child Benefit, Winter Fuel Allowance for those retired, NHS dental care (admittedly basic) Home Help for the sick and elderly, plus other benefits you may be eligible to receive. Just how many of those are freely available in Spain?

I've no intention of going back to the country I left eleven years ago - for good - but we really need a grip on reality. If I were unemployed or with a low wage job I know where I'd rather live, even under a Tory Government.


----------



## Lynn R

mrypg9 said:


> Home Help for the sick and elderly


In my little barrio, quite a few elderly people receive Home Help services under the Ley de Dependencia (and they don't have to be bed bound, either). There is an elderly couple living a few doors away from me, and whilst he is a bit frail and prone to falls, she gets about quite well and goes to the shop, etc., but they still get a Home Help to do all their cleaning (including cleaning windows which my mother, when employed as a Home Help in England many years ago, was forbidden to do). Other people are accompanied on trips to the shops, and Home Helps even exercise pensioners' dogs. Quite a few people living in the neighbourhood are employed as these uniformed Home Helps. What is interesting is that they are not receiving the infamous 15 minute care visits apparently now more and more prevalent in the UK, they seem to spend quite a bit of time with their clients.

When I was looking into home care for my father prior to his death 9 years ago, I was told that care services provided by the Local Authority would consist of personal care only (help with washing, dressing and toileting, plus meals - which means heating things up in a microwave, not cooking from scratch). If any help was needed with shopping, laundry and housework, they said the family would either have to provide that, or we would have to make separate arrangements with a care agency or employ someone directly.

Things are even worse now. Four out of five Local Authorities are now saying they are unable to provide sufficient adult social care services in their area.

https://www.theguardian.com/society...ocal-authorites-family-childcare-trust-survey


----------



## mono

Lynne R. are those services provided by qualified carers or folk on the dole? I know lots of community work is done by people who are unemployed and their 'stamps' have run out


----------



## Lynn R

mono said:


> Lynne R. are those services provided by qualified carers or folk on the dole? I know lots of community work is done by people who are unemployed and their 'stamps' have run out


They are qualified carers (I've seen people attending the courses run on behalf of the local authority) who are employed by Emvipsa, the "arm's length" company who provides certain services to the local authority. I know some local people who have been employed by them as carers for several years. Often unemployed people also go on these courses as part of the local strategy to get people back into work, to equip them to be able to be considerered for any vancancies which arise. The company has a "bolsa de trabajo" with which people can register. A couple of years ago it was in the local news that 117 new carers had been taken on to enable the local authority to provide services to people who had been on the waiting list.

Vélez-Málaga has recently received an award recognising it as one of the top 12 local authorities in Spain for the provision of social services.

http://www.velezmalaga.es/index.php?mod=noticias&id=3674


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## Pesky Wesky

Lynn R said:


> They are qualified carers (I've seen people attending the courses run on behalf of the local authority) who are employed by Emvipsa, the "arm's length" company who provides certain services to the local authority. I know some local people who have been employed by them as carers for several years. Often unemployed people also go on these courses as part of the local strategy to get people back into work, to equip them to be able to be considerered for any vancancies which arise. The company has a "bolsa de trabajo" with which people can register. A couple of years ago it was in the local news that 117 new carers had been taken on to enable the local authority to provide services to people who had been on the waiting list.
> 
> Vélez-Málaga has recently received an award recognising it as one of the top 12 local authorities in Spain for the provision of social services.
> 
> El alcalde de Vélez-Málaga recibe el reconocimiento de la Asociación de Directoras y Gerentes de Servicios Sociales por ser un municipio 'excelente' en inversión social


Yes, a couple of people I know in Bilbao who used to work in the hotel trade and on the ferries retarined for this kind of work.


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## mono

Wow, that is really a great service allowing folk to stay in their own homes and give family a break


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## gus-lopez

mrypg9 said:


> In the UK there is unemployment pay, Working Family Tax Credit, Pension Credit, Housing Benefit , Child Benefit, Winter Fuel Allowance for those retired, NHS dental care (admittedly basic) Home Help for the sick and elderly, plus other benefits you may be eligible to receive. Just how many of those are freely available in Spain?
> 
> .


Not if you were self-employed. Sweet fa then.


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