# My first discrimation pay - it is real depressing !!!



## joeman (Apr 19, 2009)

HI all,

I have been working on contract and due to good performance, I am being awarded a permanent job. 

All seems fine until I ask another colleague who is a local Aussie doing the same job as me, the same role and slightly younger and less experience and his pay is 15% higher than me. 

In term of attitude and role, I work harder than any staff in the company as I clock in the most no of tickets completed per day and had good feedback from top management but yet this has happen to an Asean staff. 

My local aussie colleague is also is open to share how much he is getting...

the HR didnt know that we are open to talk on this topic but this is ****ing disgusting !!!!

Thankfully, I havent accept the offer (as I am suppose to sign today) but I am piss off..

I also dont know what to do as if I dont accept a job, it is also hard for me to get things going and so any advice from forum members ?


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## anj1976 (Apr 24, 2008)

Hi Joeman

Relax, think rationally. Do not compare. Take the offer, keep looking, as and when you get something better take it up. It is difficult getting an offer, when u have one in hand, dont let it go. Its the first offer that takes forever, once you have an offer in hand, trust me, i have seen, others follow.


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## Gaurav (Oct 29, 2009)

Hi Joeman,
Same advice from me, stick on to the job and keep looking for better opportunities.
May be when u find better job and decide to leave, ur present company may reconsider to rationalize ur paypacket if they think u r worth keeping.
Never leave a job without other in hand. :ranger:



joeman said:


> HI all,
> 
> I have been working on contract and due to good performance, I am being awarded a permanent job.
> 
> ...


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## joeman (Apr 19, 2009)

Hi all,

I just want to clarify. When I was offered a perm position, my pay was cut by 35%. The other Aussie guy was also offered a perm position and his pay was cut by 20%. The employer told us that perm job pay are usually lower than contract jobs and hence that the reason why perm staff are getting lower pay. Therefore please do not get it wrong that I was offered a higher pay for being a perm. It is the other way around. I am not sure in Aussie if this is the case but I do heard from people that generally perm staff get 20% lower than contract workers apple to apple comparision.

Now if I were to get a 35% pay cut, I will have to work very hard as a perm staff for additional 5 month more just to break even as a contract staff. 

I am still currently being employed as a contract, I am wondering if there is any difference being a contract and a perm in this case I see a big pay cut just to secure a perm position which has some additional benefit like 4 weeks leaves, 6 days medical which are only standard perm job contract.

If we talk about job security, can a perm staff also lose his job if he makes a mistake like a contract staff ??

Any advices what I should do ?


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## obelixous (Sep 1, 2010)

The benefits of the perm staff is in terms of benefits such as paid leave, healthare, social security etc. One can still lose a job, and may get a notice period / notice pay.

The downside of contract is simple, if the firm does not have work they will not allocate work to you and you have to go without pay. UNCERTAINTY is obviously higher.

If you feel you will get another job continue to stay as a contract staff, else you can still negotiate with HR to give you a higher pay to join at.


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## joeman (Apr 19, 2009)

just to want to check if this is true ???

" I am not sure in Aussie if this is the case but I do heard from people that generally perm staff get 20% lower than contract workers apple to apple comparision."


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

joeman said:


> HI all,
> 
> I have been working on contract and due to good performance, I am being awarded a permanent job.
> 
> ...


Advice - Suck it up... I have just employed a top ass chap who's rate is lower than some of my other staff who are LESS skilled (its called economics).... Listen carefully - I'll say this ONCE. YOU and YOU only signed the papers when you took the job. YOU agreed on the amount - now suck-it-up. If you don't like it resign and find another job.


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## joeman (Apr 19, 2009)

Halo, I think you got it wrong...I am saying I am being confirmed as a perm staff but with a pay cut of 30% compare to a local aussie with a pay cut of 15%. 

I am asking if it common for company to offer a staff lower once he is confirmed as a perm staff...


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## useng2aus (Aug 9, 2010)

If you haven't signed yet, couldn't you still negotiate for a higher permanent salary? Why not say you want to stay, but can only afford to if the pay cut is only 15% instead of 35%. The worst that can happen is they say no. You can still then accept the original offer and start looking for other employment.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

joeman said:


> I am asking if it common for company to offer a staff lower once he is confirmed as a perm staff...


Yes it is........ (if I understand your question correctly)


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## joeman (Apr 19, 2009)

useng2aus said:


> If you haven't signed yet, couldn't you still negotiate for a higher permanent salary? Why not say you want to stay, but can only afford to if the pay cut is only 15% instead of 35%. The worst that can happen is they say no. You can still then accept the original offer and start looking for other employment.


Thanks for the advice. I plan to do that. It is the sad feeling but since I am here on my choice, I just have to work harder..


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## useng2aus (Aug 9, 2010)

Yes, I agree that it sucks. Hopefully, it is not a common experience. If they don't agree to adjust your salary, you might also want to look into legal recourse. In the US wage discrimination is illegal, so it might be illegal in Australia too.


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## kaz101 (Nov 29, 2007)

Speaking as a ex IT contractor permanent salary is always lower than contractor pay since as a permanent you get loads of benefits such as holiday pay, sick pay etc. As a contractor you get nothing so the pay is higher. 

I don't know whether there is discrimination based on being Aussie or not since I'm self employed anyway. It may also be a difference depending on what visa you are on - even if you're on a permanent visa you may be planning to get citizenship and then leave. Employers aren't dumb and my husband had difficulty getting a job locally since even with a PR visa the employers weren't sure how long we would stick around.....

Use it as a stepping stone to somewhere else.....

Regards,
Karen


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## illawarrior (Aug 16, 2010)

Contract staff will almost always earn more than permanent staff, as contract staff do not get normally get paid for annual leave, sick leave, superannuation etc. It does not matter whether you are an aussie or an expat.

Contract staff are usually employed for a fixed period, after which they can be kept on or let go. Permanent staff are subject to "unfair dismissal laws" and there is a process to be followed by an employer wanting to terminate a permanent employee. Unless there is "gross misconduct", it is basically 3 strikes before you are out, and you must be given formal warnings, and additional training, if required.

Where the position pays an "award wage", it must comply with the statutory rate of pay.

In professional roles, it is salary by negotiation, and not all aussies doing the same job get paid the same either. It is not a discrimination thing, as much as who is the better negotiator, or prevailing market conditions at the time of the negotiation.


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## mr.india (Jul 28, 2009)

NEGOTIATE and see, if they can increase, else look for options.


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## Havoline (May 12, 2008)

illawarrior said:


> Where the position pays an "*award wage*", it must comply with the statutory rate of pay.
> 
> In *professional roles*, it is salary by negotiation, and not all aussies doing the same job get paid the same either. It is not a discrimination thing, as much as who is the better negotiator, or prevailing market conditions at the time of the negotiation.


If the TS is from Singapore, he should be able to understand this, its the same in Singapore, "award wage" is on a similar policy as Singapore's Employment Act for those with S$2,500 monthly and below, abide by statutory acts. What ever agreement written worse off than this Act is null and void. And workers can seek redress from the Ministry of Manpower, or Labour ministry in Singapore.

"professional roles" given above has the same meaning as "bargainable staffs", implying those whose salary above S$2,500mthly or industry professionals are not protected by the Act because in their capacity, they owe it to themselves to bargain their own wages. Redress is usually through legal recourse on worker's own expenses.

So talking with your employer should be fothcoming and not keep it to yourself and feel shortchange yourself, you be shortchanging yourself not expressing it.


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## illawarrior (Aug 16, 2010)

"professional roles" given above has the same meaning as "bargainable staffs", implying those whose salary above S$2,500mthly or industry professionals are not protected by the Act because in their capacity, they owe it to themselves to bargain their own wages. Redress is usually through legal recourse on worker's own expenses.

What legal redress?
Bargaining is about offer and acceptance .... if you do not like the offer, do not accept it. Once you have accepted it, there would not usually be any legal right to challenge. You can however, try to re-negotiate ..... by demonstrating that you are worth more


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## Jason1 (Jun 23, 2009)

Contractors do not get superannuation, any benefits or leave. So it's a no brainer that they should be paid at least 15-30% more than a permanent employee to be at the same pay level. This is not discrimination it is a common sense business principle


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## joeman (Apr 19, 2009)

Jason1 said:


> Contractors do not get superannuation, any benefits or leave. So it's a no brainer that they should be paid at least 15-30% more than a permanent employee to be at the same pay level. This is not discrimination it is a common sense business principle


Jason,

As a contractor, I am paid an hourly wage plus superanuation. Many staff who joined this company accept it because they have lost their jobs before. The hourly rate is slightly lower than market rates but I took it because there was a verbal term to say that we can be converted to perm position but there no mentioned on pay cut for perm staff. 

Later, someone told me that on average, a perm position is paid 20% lesser than a contractor but the POINT on DISCRIMINATION is the pay DIFFERNCE between a migrant and a local aussie. 

The local aaussie and me do the same job and role and in term of experience, I have heaps of certificates with PMP, MCSE, ITIL compare to the Aussie blog with no certification. 

Even if I can put certification and experiences aside, even with that 20% cut, that Aussie guy didnt accept that position which he already think is low while I am a migrant and ready to accept that low pay of 20% cut. 

What sadden me was why an asian have to take a 35% pay cut whileas the aussie guy have a 20% pay cut. 

BTW, I am the *only Asean staff *in the IT department. They *fired all the indian IT contract staff *and recruited a few local aussies, me (Asian Chinese) and another local aussie with Turkish background. Even then, the Turkish guy didnt want to accept the perm position because he also find it low. 

I did my maths, with a 35% cut, I have to dig into my saving to cover up my family expenses. I need put food on the table for my family. It is tough and depressing. The only thing that keep me going is to see my future generation grow up in a good environment and not that situation I am in.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

If you don't like it, I think you should find another job. We all know there is some inherent racism in Australia - So suck it up, I was targeted for being from the motherland. Suck it up and move on.


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## Jason1 (Jun 23, 2009)

Joeman

I know most employment contracts have a clause stating that it is prohibited to discuss your pay with fellow employees. So by discussing your salaries with each other you are in breach of your employment contract. If your employer finds this out and you have been working for the company for less than 6 months you could be dismissed without any recourse.

Being an employer there are many reasons why they may pay different salaries to similar level employees and the permutations of reasons which can be discussed are endless and so a comparison between you and a fellow employee will be futile and frustrate your working relationship with your employer.

Well done on not having been selected for redundancy you must be good at what you do.

My recommendation is that you get the "discrimination" word out of your mind as it is going to be counterproductive and negative in your work environment, even if it is true.

If I were you I would sit down your employer and ask them for advice on your financial situation and if they have any sense they will want to find a solution that makes their employee happy and more productive at the end of the day. They do not want employees that are worried about personal finances when they should be working. They will either start negotiating your pay upwards or tell you that they cannot adjust your pay. If they tell you that they cannot adjust your pay anymore then they will be fully aware that you are not able to make ends meet financially.
Depending on how understanding they are you can then ask them if you can start looking for another job. They should not say no because you have already informed them of your financial position. If they say yes then it is a win for you because:
1. You will have a job while you are looking for another
2. You will be able to use them as a reference for your new prospective employer

A very valuable asset is having a good reference when looking for a new job. If you bring up the discrimination issue you can say goodbye to a good reference because they will only see you as a trouble causer.

Many employees make the mistake of being unproductive in their last days of employment. Try doing the opposite and doing your best because last impressions are lasting impressions. They will mostly remember your last days at work and recall them favourably when giving a reference.


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## joeman (Apr 19, 2009)

Jason,

You are a life saver...this is the best piece of advice I have come across..




Jason1 said:


> Joeman
> 
> I know most employment contracts have a clause stating that it is prohibited to discuss your pay with fellow employees. So by discussing your salaries with each other you are in breach of your employment contract. If your employer finds this out and you have been working for the company for less than 6 months you could be dismissed without any recourse.
> 
> ...


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## ricky200276 (Jul 1, 2010)

It's good that you've got a life saving advice here.
It's quite common in every company that one person gets higher than the other however things start getting ugly when you start looking at other side like race, religion and experience.
I am not sure how true is the other person while exposing salary part of his contract. 
Think from your persepctive and make a logical decision. 

If I would be you I will talk to my boss and see if things can work out and keep it going unless I find other job. Keep your relation with your colleagues and boss nice as you don't know as and when you may need a reference.


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## anj1976 (Apr 24, 2008)

Will tell you what happened with my husband. He was with X company, they moved him to sister concern after him working in X company for 3 yrs. Both offices are in same premises and he was catering to IT requirements for both companies. the sis concern says we can not pay as much as the X company is paying, they hire him at a higher position but give him a salary cut of about 30%. It was insane, when u r used to certain way of life, inclusing savings, all of a sudden if you have less money in hand it becomes difficult for a person to work (ur heart wont let u work). He spoke to his boss, did not cry or crib, just told him this was not fair, they took him back to wehre he was when he joined the company, rank wise it is higher but it is not justified. U can not feed the rank to your family, one needs money to run ur life. It took them 4 months but they gave him a raise, they respect him for what he did, no cribbing that is and now he is back to what his pay was 4 months back.

he was looking fr a change on the side but he is satisfied with what he is doing and now that the money is the same he is happy.

keep looking, take it up as i suggested earlier, there must be something good in what is happening. be positive and things will fall in place. atleast u have a job unlike ur early days when u had nothing and no they have not made u redundant, which means they are happy with your work.


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## joeman (Apr 19, 2009)

Thank you for that frank advice...you are right, different people has different lifestyle and some people cannot share that desperate feeling that I am in...

I read in the forum and generally what I see is that many people claim to be paid $90K/year and so even with a 30% cut to $60k, u can still feed for a family of 4, a wife, 2 kids, a house and a car...but can u imagine for the average experience worker drawing an average salary of $60K/year and to get a pay cut to $40K/year, how did they survive to pay for all...after minus off the taxes, etc..

maybe that is another advice I will need to seek from those who made it on a 40K/year salary to feed his family of 4...how did they ever overcome it ?



anj1976 said:


> Will tell you what happened with my husband. He was with X company, they moved him to sister concern after him working in X company for 3 yrs. Both offices are in same premises and he was catering to IT requirements for both companies. the sis concern says we can not pay as much as the X company is paying, they hire him at a higher position but give him a salary cut of about 30%. It was insane, when u r used to certain way of life, inclusing savings, all of a sudden if you have less money in hand it becomes difficult for a person to work (ur heart wont let u work). He spoke to his boss, did not cry or crib, just told him this was not fair, they took him back to wehre he was when he joined the company, rank wise it is higher but it is not justified. U can not feed the rank to your family, one needs money to run ur life. It took them 4 months but they gave him a raise, they respect him for what he did, no cribbing that is and now he is back to what his pay was 4 months back.
> 
> he was looking fr a change on the side but he is satisfied with what he is doing and now that the money is the same he is happy.
> 
> keep looking, take it up as i suggested earlier, there must be something good in what is happening. be positive and things will fall in place. atleast u have a job unlike ur early days when u had nothing and no they have not made u redundant, which means they are happy with your work.


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## illawarrior (Aug 16, 2010)

Later, someone told me that on average, a perm position is paid 20% lesser than a contractor but the POINT on DISCRIMINATION is the pay DIFFERNCE between a migrant and a local aussie. 

I repeat the point I made earlier .... not all aussies get the same rate of pay for the same work either. Yes, there may be a difference in this case, but it does not mean it is racially determined - maybe your colleague was just a better negotiator? Maybe the employer knew you would accept less? Maybe the market forces of supply and demand were at a different stage of the cycle? There are many possible reasons other than discrimination.


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## anj1976 (Apr 24, 2008)

as i said earlier, this isnt the last job on earth.. keep looking, keep this one, i am sure u will find one soon enough. atleast there is a 40k package tht is there, it isnt no income.. i understand completely, ihave gone through the same but at times u cant help situations, except for feeling frustrated. In our case the phase lasted 4 months. in our case my husband has made 3 trips abroad in last one and half month, three more on way and yes he did make up for the deficit amount of 4 months. They say if u earn something and u deserve something, some or the other way it comes to you.. maybe i am too positive a person and my words have no value when u have people to feed at home.


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## joeman (Apr 19, 2009)

Hi Warrier,

I guess let not term it as discrimation but let me put it a more fancy words..let say this is a a culture shock roller coaster ride but you have to understand what is going through inside a person mind. 

First of all, you are already prepared to accept a 20% pay cut and your tell your wife and family, Daddy is getting a perm job but we have to cut down on some movies and resturants but at least daddy can put food on the table as long as daddy is working. 

Then come the culture shock of a 35% pay cut and then you found that your ex-colleague was given a 20% pay cut.

The first thing on the mind is you swear "WTF !!!" 

Now that I know that wages can be so hugh between colleagues of similar roles, I guess I can just term it as culture shock. 

Of course, now after being angry, I still have to look around and decide if I should just sign up to ensure that I can I can put food on the table and move on...





illawarrior said:


> Later, someone told me that on average, a perm position is paid 20% lesser than a contractor but the POINT on DISCRIMINATION is the pay DIFFERNCE between a migrant and a local aussie.
> 
> I repeat the point I made earlier .... not all aussies get the same rate of pay for the same work either. Yes, there may be a difference in this case, but it does not mean it is racially determined - maybe your colleague was just a better negotiator? Maybe the employer knew you would accept less? Maybe the market forces of supply and demand were at a different stage of the cycle? There are many possible reasons other than discrimination.


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## aussieland (Oct 14, 2008)

joeman said:


> Jason,
> .............
> BTW, I am the *only Asean staff *in the IT department. They *fired all the indian IT contract staff *and recruited a few local aussies, me (Asian Chinese) and another local aussie with Turkish background. Even then, the Turkish guy didnt want to accept the perm position because he also find it low.
> ..............
> ...


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## joeman (Apr 19, 2009)

The reason I heard was that the company wanted to outsource the IT dept to an IT firm. So the outsource IT firm (which I am now working) wanted to hired these indian staff but with a lousy contract.

So, the indian staff didnt accept those terms and everything was hanging in the air. 

It got worst and the scene became ugly and (PLEASE dont be offended to be an indian but you have asked me) but they were asked to go in a hurried (and maybe just throw them some money) but one thing I know is that none of them had the opportunities to pack much of their belongings. 

However, when the IT outsource company took over all the infrastructure, they realised that there were incomplete documentation, missing equipment, and poor backup system. 

Even till today, whenever the system break down, or contracts were missing or whatever reasons it may be, the IT outsource company will point the fingers at those people and continue to ask for more money whenever the company demands for improvement to the system. 

This scenario are typical of IT takeovers but it is how the management does the transition that differentiate between a successful or a lousy take over. 

The new outsource staff like me had to rebuilt some of the system again but I take it as good learning curve rather than complain about more work.


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## aussieland (Oct 14, 2008)

ohh.k..


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## Gimme5 (Aug 16, 2010)

If no laws were broken, then learn to live with it. No use getting upset or trying to justify anything. That's life, that's just the way it is. If you don't like it, find another job and quit. Works both ways. Don't know how long you've been in the job market but in my 23 years since graduation and working for numerous multinationals, I can tell you that 15% pay disparity is NOTHING. If that's of any consolation, LOL.


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## stormgal (Sep 30, 2009)

I understand how upsetting that could be. But I agree with others though - sometimes one can make it out to be something that it's not (ie. racism, etc), when the reality is that perhaps you didn't have the same negotiating skills that the other guys had... 

I've seen that happen a lot - perhaps your bosses said, "You will start with this amount" - but you didn't say anything because you didn't know any better - like how much pay for a similar position goes, etc. Most people negotiate pay and will not necessarily accept a figure straight off the back. And since you havne't said anything, like point out your certifications and the things you've done at your job while you were a temp, they didn't bother to negotiate/increase your pay because after all, it saves them money.

On another note - for the people here who are advising this man to "suck it up" because discrimination is an underlying issue in Oz, well I disagree with that attitude. Perhaps it would be wise for this person to suck it up at the moment, (considering the fact that he's a non citizen), but I don't think that giving employers that type of power over you - as far as allowing them to discriminate against you - for whatever reason - is acceptable. I think for one to let themselves be abused will only reinforce that type of behavior not only against other employees, but will set a precedence to allow them to discriminate on other issues.


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## joeman (Apr 19, 2009)

Hi all,

Thanks for the encouragement.

I open up and spoke to my friends. They were all SHOCKED.

I dont mind telling you how much I am paid. I have a relevant degree with certifcation in PMP, MCSE, ITIL.

I am paid around $60K per year. This may seems good but with the perm job, I am offered $40K /year. 

For those who ask me to suck it up, I dont know if you find this reasonable ?? to take $40K and feed a family of 4 or to remain as contractor ??. what advice can you give me ??? suck it up ????

But I think all of you are earning more than me and I know I should be earning more but I have to keep on trying and trying to get into the right job...

To some people, $20K difference is not a big deal as you earn over $100K but when you compare at the lower income bracket at $40K range, I dont know if you find it tough or not ??. 

I tried to negotiate today and was offered a $2K top up from $40K to $42K...what kind of game is it. I really want to ask if you are a boss, do you like to play games of +/- $2K ????


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## stormgal (Sep 30, 2009)

joeman said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Thanks for the encouragement.
> 
> ...


Well, that isn't a lot of money, but honestly, there is no point complaining about it now. Work doesn't care if you have a "family of 4" - your employer shouldn't base your pay on that. I am a single woman without any responsibilities, and woudn't like it if someone came in with a large family and got paid more because of it. 

Do you have good command of the English language? I'm not trying to be offensive, but that may have something to do with it. People keep forgetting that communication skills are just as important as any specialized skill. Employers sort of "deduct" from how well you're able to express yourself in person and in writing.

If I were you, I'd stop concentrating on the negative and just keep the job for experience. Look for something else in the meantime - at least you're getting the highly desired local experience.


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## quadom (Sep 16, 2010)

joeman said:


> Halo, I think you got it wrong...I am saying I am being confirmed as a perm staff but with a pay cut of 30% compare to a local aussie with a pay cut of 15%.
> 
> I am asking if it common for company to offer a staff lower once he is confirmed as a perm staff...


I've always found that if you don't get the money you want in the first place chances are that you'll only get a better offer from a new job. Don't sign anything if you think you can get a better offer in your current job. Also look for other jobs offering more money then consider leaving when you have an offer of a new job.


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## joeman (Apr 19, 2009)

Thanks all for the encouragements, I think I am know that I am in the stage of depression already. 

The more I write, the more I feel depressed. It is not the greener pasture that many people always paint.

Today is a Saturday and I plan to drive out and get some fresh air and get away from all these.

A friend asked me to seek spiritual counselling as when you have nothing to hold on to, a higher being is always there to look out for your needs.


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## Jason1 (Jun 23, 2009)

True success is achieved by not letting life's shortfalls bring you down but let them make you stronger.
Did you know that a study has shown that the average millionaire in the USA has failed 7 times before making their fortune and it normally finally happens when they are in their 50's.
You have to stay positive because if you do not believe in yourself how can you expect anyone else to.


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## hankeymeal (Sep 18, 2010)

wow..


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## anj1976 (Apr 24, 2008)

Joeman,

Apologies fr sounding rude but u have a right to vent it out but think about it, do you have an option? U can not just keep crying over it. Either accept it and move on or quit and stay without work.

My advice, stop getting depressed over it, take up the offer, on teh side look for an alternate and try and move out of it as soon as you can. dont waste time on getting depressed and feeling low cos you are being treated different. Acceptance always makes things easier.


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