# Relinquish - a method to save the $2,350 fee?



## gigant

hi,

I read that the relinquish of citizenship save you the fee and you only need to go to the consulate once.

So I wonder, what if one go to the consulate and state that he did on of the following acts: pls read below:

(A) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years if he has or acquires the nationality of such foreign state; or

(B) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years for which office, post, or employment an oath, affirmation, or declaration of allegiance is required; 

is the dept of state going to investigate if you did really performed the act?

this method will save you the $2,350 and you are 100% sure you do lose your citizenship

any feedback?


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## Stevesolar

Hi,
How do you look wearing orange?
Do you fancy a trip to Guantanamo Bay?
Really not a good idea to go down that route!
Cheers
Steve


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## BBCWatcher

See my reply in your other thread.

It's not a question of investigation. If you want to document a loss of U.S. citizenship (without the fee) then the burden is substantially on you to demonstrate that the circumstances described occurred.

....But as I pointed out in the other thread I'm puzzled why you'd want to terminate a citizenship (that you paid to acquire!) that's likely to be _personally financially beneficial_ in your circumstances. Yes, obtaining the financial benefits will require some annual tax and financial reporting, but that still looks like a good deal.


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## gigant

BBCWatcher said:


> See my reply in your other thread.
> 
> It's not a question of investigation. If you want to document a loss of U.S. citizenship (without the fee) then the burden is substantially on you to demonstrate that the circumstances described occurred.
> 
> ....But as I pointed out in the other thread I'm puzzled why you'd want to terminate a citizenship (that you paid to acquire!) that's likely to be _personally financially beneficial_ in your circumstances. Yes, obtaining the financial benefits will require some annual tax and financial reporting, but that still looks like a good deal.


why? 

because I did not know you are required to file for taxes for the rest of your life even if one day you go live in another country,
what is it financially beneficial? 30% of my paycheck is eaten by taxes
I work all year long with no vacation, while in Europe they enjoy a better life,

I had a green card, I was an idiot to apply for us passport, big mistake


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## Bevdeforges

Although the laws are still on the books, those laws have been ruled to be more or less invalid. Supreme Court basically ruled that the only way to demonstrate "intent" to relinquish is to renounce in front of a consular official - and that's when you have to pay the $2350 fee. 

Actually, you aren't 100% sure of losing your citizenship that way, either. The way the law works now, it just gives the government the option of pulling your citizenship if they become aware of your having committed an "expatriating act." As far as I can tell, they haven't done this in a couple of decades now. 
Cheers,
Bev


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## BBCWatcher

gigant said:


> why?


In no particular order:

1. As a U.S. citizen you have the most preferential access to U.S. financial assets and investment markets ("Wall Street"), the lowest cost and most efficient such markets in the world. (And it sounds like you have some Social Security at least with 10 years of work in the U.S.) You are not subject to mandatory 30% withholding on your U.S. investments, in particular. (That withholding may or may not be recoverable when you file a U.S. tax return. Yes, you still have to file a U.S. tax return unless you want to lose your withholding, even if your U.S. withdrawals would ordinarily be tax free. You more or less signed up for many U.S. tax filings when you worked in the U.S. and earned Social Security credits, not when you acquired your U.S. passport.)

2. You have access to attractive U.S. tax-advantaged retirement savings accounts which may be treaty-protected in Spain. (Check the U.S.-Spain tax treaty.)

3. You have guaranteed access to the world's #1 economy any time you wish. As reference, Spain's current unemployment rate is over 24% while the unemployment in the U.S. is below 6%. This ability at least has important _insurance value_ as a contingency _option_, an inherent advantage in possession of multiple citizenships.

4. You may qualify for receiving free money from the U.S. government from time to time simply because you are a U.S. citizen who files. That's particularly true as a tax resident of Spain, a comparatively high income tax jurisdiction. Examples include the Additional Child Tax Credit, American Opportunity Tax Credit, and (in previous tax years) the Making Work Pay Tax Credit. (Yes, it's possible to receive free money even while living overseas just for being an American.)

5. Any future children would be born U.S. citizens with their own individual options to terminate their U.S. citizenships at age 18 should they choose (rather than you forcing that decision on them through your termination before their births). They would have the same option as described in #3 above. Non-citizens cannot pass citizenship to children.

6. You have guaranteed entry rights into the U.S. for travel (e.g. vacations), you are not required to obtain ESTA permission, and you are not required to pay ESTA fees. (Though you are required to maintain a U.S. passport to exercise this right.) You can use the faster/shorter U.S. lines when entering the U.S. You can stay as long as you want and are not required to leave within 90 days.

7. Your rights in #6 above also extent to making international connections in the United States (e.g. much travel to Latin America). An international connection in the United States always requires entering the United States, clearing immigration and customs.

8. Your ability to travel to the U.S. for any purpose for any duration would be attractive to many prospective employers in Spain.

9. Upon reaching age 65 you (evidently) qualify for Medicare benefits in the United States, giving you another medical _option_ if you require highly specialized care uniquely or preferentially available in the U.S. Your citizenship facilitates access for that purpose.

10. You can seek and obtain consular protection and related services from more than one country while you travel overseas.

These are some examples, and some of them are situational. OK, you've identified one possible (but unlikely) negative: annual U.S. tax and financial filings. Except you've probably already crossed that bridge, and there's no penalty for failure to file a U.S. tax return if you don't actually owe any U.S. income tax. (FBARs are a different matter, but those take about 10 minutes per year.) Are there any other even _potential_ benefits if you were to terminate U.S. citizenship now, enough that offset the minimum US$2350 you'd have to pay and the situational advantages described above?

By the way, it's quite _incredible_ that you didn't understand the tax and financial filing obligations when you naturalized as a U.S. citizen. Those requirements are clearly and fully disclosed during the course of your naturalization-related education. Maybe you fell asleep that day in class (or self-study equivalent). Even so, most people I've spoken with who've naturalized fully understood the rights, privileges, and obligations of U.S. citizenship they were signing up for. A few subsequently want to terminate the entire deal they accepted due to changed circumstances, but they knew the deal.


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## Pacifica

> Although the laws are still on the books, those laws have been ruled to be more or less invalid. Supreme Court basically ruled that the only way to demonstrate "intent" to relinquish is to renounce in front of a consular official - and that's when you have to pay the $2350 fee.


I know of a couple dozen people who have relinquished citizenship, other than by renunciation, since those Supreme Court decisions.

The Supreme Court decisions didn’t eliminate the 6 means, other than renunciation, by which one can relinquish citizenship, which are set out in s. 349(a) of the _Immigration and Nationality Act_. The result of the Supreme Court decisions was that the Dept of State reversed its administration presumption in 1990.

Prior to 1990, Department of State’s administrative presumption was that a person performing what _INA _s. 349 refers to as a “potentially relinquishing act” intended to terminate their US citizenship. In 1990 the presumption was reversed to, and remains, that the person intended to retain their US citizenship. The presumption is rebuttable and the burden of proof is the balance of probabilities.

Relinquishing by means other than renunciation seems to be relatively common, or at least not uncommon. I know of a couple dozen people who have obtained relinquishment-based CLNs in the past couple of years, one is a friend who got hers last week. Most of these were under s. 349(a)(1), naturalising in a foreign country; four were under s. 349 (4)(a), employment by a foreign government.

Immigration and Nationality Act, s. 349
8 U.S. Code § 1481 - Loss of nationality by native-born or naturalized citizen; voluntary action; burden of proof; presumptions | LII / Legal Information Institute
Dept of State 7 FAM 1220 Developing a Loss of Nationality Case
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/120546.pdf
Dept of State DS-4079. Request for Determination of Possible Loss of US Citizenship
http://eforms.state.gov/editdocumen...&from=2&categoryid=1&form_format=3&Width=1270


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## diharv

You don't want to be stateless so prior to expatriating one has to have another citizenship . In my case Canadian. Fill out form 1079 or whatever it is properly and it is as simple as saying "yes" when they ask if you intended to relinquish US citizenship when becoming a Canadian . There was nothing complicated , no burden of proof , just OK.I guess the fact that I have lived in Canada 45 out of my 49 years did not hurt but I left with $ 450.00 in my pocket when I went in there fully intending to swear an oath of de-allegience. Yhey didn't seem to want me to renounce . I guess the numbers are starting to pile up and it's starting to look bad so I was happy how it turned out.


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## BBCWatcher

I agree with Pacifica on the state of the law. However, the legal options available evidently do not apply to the original poster's particular situation -- and _generally_ wouldn't apply if an individual's U.S. citizenship was acquired through naturalization as an adult. So I agree with Bev's presumption that termination of U.S. citizenship will cost a minimum of US$2350 in this case.


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## maz57

The bottom line here is that if the OP walks into his Consulate appointment trying to claim a prior relinquishment rather than paying the fee and swearing the renunciation oath on the spot, the Consular officer will want to see documentation of that "relinquishing act". Obviously, if it is a made up story, no such documentation exists. 

Submitting forged or fake documents in this situation would be a spectacularly bad idea and a mere verbal assertion won't get the OP to first base. So the answer to the question "will they check up" is probably no, but they will certainly look closely at the paperwork submitted at the time of the appointment. Official foreign government documents are what they would be looking for in this situation.

They will also examine the behavior of the applicant from the time of the relinquishing act to the present to see if that behavior is consistent with losing US citizenship. Travel on his US passport would be damaging although not fatal. Voting or filing US tax returns would also create serious problems. The Consular officer must weigh the claim based on the balance of probabilities and make a recommendation which then goes to State department for the final determination. 

If the OP wants certainty, he should pay the $2350, swear the oath, and be done with it, not try to game the system to save a few bucks.


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## Pacifica

BBCWatcher said:


> "I agree with Pacifica on the state of the law. However, the legal options available evidently do not apply to the original poster's particular situation -- and _generally_ wouldn't apply if an individual's U.S. citizenship was acquired through naturalization as an adult. So I agree with Bev's presumption that termination of U.S. citizenship will cost a minimum of US$2350 in this case."


It sounds to me as well, from what the original poster has written, that only s. (5), renunciation, could apply to his situation (at this time, anyway – as he doesn’t seem to have performed one of the other potentially relinquishing acts or be on the verge of performing one – though he might voluntarily, with intent, perform one in the future). The info regarding the state of the law might be of some use to someone else, though.

Specifically regarding, 



BBCWatcher said:


> "... However, the legal options available ... _generally_ wouldn't apply if an individual's U.S. citizenship was acquired through naturalization as an adult. ..."


I don’t understand why you say that these options “generally wouldn’t apply if an individual’s U.S. citizenship was acquired through naturalization as an adult.”

The _Immigration and Nationality Act_ doesn’t state that naturalised USCs are restricted from any of the seven methods of relinquishment, nor do I recall any exclusions for naturalised USCs in the Dept of State procedure manual dealing with relinquishment. About a year ago, I asked Dept of State Legal Affairs if the means by which the citizenship was acquired affects a dual citizen’s capacity to relinquish other than by renunciation (speaking in general, not a specific fact set), and I was told that it didn’t, that they’re the same as any dual citizen.

So, my take is that generally, whether native born or naturalised, the same options would apply. Intent at the time the relinquishing act is performed is what matters. The fact that a person chose to become a US citizen at some point in their life doesn’t mean they can’t form the intent to terminate that citizenship in 2014.


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## BBCWatcher

Hence the word "generally." Give. Every. Word. Some. Weight.


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## StewartPatton

It looks like BBCWatcher was making a statement about facts and Pacifica took it as a statement about the law. So, BBCWatcher meant that a person who naturalizes as an adult does not often thereafter engage in an expatriating act with the intent to lose US citizenship, and Pacifica is correct that of course legally they could still lose US citizenship if they do so. Everybody is right.

Now hug it out, you two.


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