# Professional Engineer (189) VS Engineering Associate (190)



## p_chuah (Mar 11, 2014)

Hi all,

I am a new member to this forum. I am currently putting together my CDR for the Engineers Australia skilled migration assessment. My background:
- BEng (Hons) Mechanical Engineering (3 months 'top-up' semester in UK)
- Advanced Diploma in Mechanical Engineering (2 years course in M'sia)
- Diploma is Mechanical Engineering (2 years course in M'sia)
- 8.5 years mechanical design experience in Malaysia.
- Will be 33 years old in Nov 2014.
- IELTS L 8.5; R 8.0; W 7.0; S 8.0

Option 1
Submit Engineers Australia assessment for Professional Engineer
Nominated occupation = Mechanical Engineer (on the SOL)

Option 2
Submit Engineers Australia assessment for Engineering Associate
Nominated occupation = Mechanical Engineering Draughtsperson (on the CSOL - state nomination for QLD, thus +5pts on the skillselect points test)


What are your recommendations, I should go for option 1 or option 2? 

Also, if I go for option 2, will there be any restrictions for me to be employed in a "Professional Engineer" job in Australia if I am granted the 190 visa via option 2?

Thanks in advance for your kind opinions!


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## p_sherman (Mar 12, 2014)

Hi p_chuah,

Felt compelled to register just to help a fellow engineer and countryman out 

Are you claiming points for work experience? If you are, I believe that experience must be related to your nominated occupation. 
AFAIK, an engineer and a drafter has pretty different job scopes so you might want to take that into consideration.

If you meet 60 points before +5 from QLD, suggest you go for option 1.
The 189 should be preferred to the 190 because it has no limitations/obligations and is processed much faster than the latter.

If applying for the 190, once you get it, there are no restrictions on the sort of jobs you can take.

Just to add, I have a BEng (Hons) in Mechanical Engineering from the UK (3-year course).
I submitted a Washington application to EngAust to be assessed as a Mechanical Engineer, but was told that they only consider the 4-year MEng course to be applicable for the Washington route.

I was subsequently assessed under the Sydney route as an Engineering Technologist (233914).


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## HighNoon (Feb 2, 2014)

p_sherman said:


> Hi p_chuah,
> 
> Just to add, I have a BEng (Hons) in Mechanical Engineering from the UK (3-year course).
> I submitted a Washington application to EngAust to be assessed as a Mechanical Engineer, but was told that they only consider the 4-year MEng course to be applicable for the Washington route.
> .


Likewise, applied with BEng EEE from the UK and I only found out the issue when they made the outcome.

Look up your course here.
Engineering Council - Education & Skills - International Recognition Agreements

See if it's mentioned under Washington Accord and check for any notes under your course. If there's a fine print that says 'Further studies required', then it's actually a sydney accord degree! You do get the 15 points for education (british degrees aren't entirely as dodgy as the second hand auto market), but the real problem is that under the new skillselect system the recognition isn't worth much. With a low ceiling on the 2339 code, even a 75 pointer has a long wait.

In this case you'd consider the other option, if your diploma and experience allow it.

Also I think you only get 10 points for a draughtsperson, which means you get equal points on both options.

BTW sherman, did you go ahead with the eoi?


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## p_sherman (Mar 12, 2014)

HighNoon said:


> BTW sherman, did you go ahead with the eoi?


Yes I did, via the 190. Will update my timeline a little later when I get the chance to.

Still waiting for the grant, in case you're wondering.


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## p_chuah (Mar 11, 2014)

Hi p_sherman and HighNoon, thank you so much for both of your valuable inputs and for sharing your experiences!

p_sherman: 
- As my degree qualification is not an accredited course, I have to apply my skills assessment via CDR, thus having the need to complete 3 career episodes and the Summary Statement. The standards required for an Engineering Associate (Draughtsperson) is tough, let alone a Professional Engineer! 
- I had the impression that the 190 has priority processing over 189. I must have thought wrong then??
- Thus, even if am assessed as an Engineering Associate (Mechanical Engineering Draughtsperson), I can still be employed as an Engineer-level position, provided an employer is willing to hire me for my experience and skills. Is that correct?

HighNoon:
- I am considering between 2335 and 3125. While my jobscope revolves around Product Design Engineering, I am looking to apply under Mechanical Engineer or Mechanical Engineering Draughtsperson. Do you think that this is possible or will immigration classify me under 2339?
- Which category in the points system that you are referring to for the "10pts for a draughtsperson"?

Thanks again guys!


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## p_sherman (Mar 12, 2014)

p_chuah said:


> p_sherman:
> - I had the impression that the 190 has priority processing over 189. I must have thought wrong then??
> 
> On paper, processing time used to be 12 months for 189 and 6 months for 190. It has been recently updated to 3 months for both. However, judging from past few months' experience, 189 is almost always faster by a significant margin.
> ...


My replies in red above.


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## p_chuah (Mar 11, 2014)

Ok cool. Thanks p_sherman!


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## HighNoon (Feb 2, 2014)

p_sherman said:


> Yes I did, via the 190. Will update my timeline a little later when I get the chance to.
> 
> Still waiting for the grant, in case you're wondering.


That's good sign, I see the 190 applications are moving. There was the news about increasing the ceiling for 189, but there's no change in queue.


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## HighNoon (Feb 2, 2014)

p_chuah said:


> HighNoon:
> - I am considering between 2335 and 3125. While my jobscope revolves around Product Design Engineering, I am looking to apply under Mechanical Engineer or Mechanical Engineering Draughtsperson. Do you think that this is possible or will immigration classify me under 2339?
> - Which category in the points system that you are referring to for the "10pts for a draughtsperson"?
> 
> Thanks again guys!



Nominate the highest classification - Mechanical Engineer. EA may decide to lower it if it's not appropriate, but not the other way round. The fact that the BEng is a 3 yr degree could still be a concern with a CDR application, but unlikely with the long experience and the PG diploma. Of course it all comes down to how inspiring your CDR is.

Regarding points, this is what I see in the table:

At least a bachelor - 15
Diploma or trade qualification - 10

And the ANZSCO definition for Mechanical Engineering Draftsperson - 312511 (Skill Level 2) indicates that it 'has a level of skill commensurate with an AQF Associate Degree or Advanced Diploma'.

But like I said you should be fine with option 1.


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## p_chuah (Mar 11, 2014)

Thanks HighNoon for your further advice.

Just to clarify, my total tertiary study = (Diploma) 2 years + (Advanced Diploma) 2 years + (Degree) 3 months only

Let's say that I nominate myself at the highest qualification - Professional Engineer (2335) for the EA assessment, and the result from EA is that they downgrade me to Engineering Technologist. That would put me in the 2339 category, which means a long wait due to the low ceiling. Is this correct in terms of the "risk"?

But if I go for 3125, I will have less 5 pts as you have explained, and I will need to submit EOI for QLD nominated 190 visa. As p_sherman adviced, 190 visa has also a longer wait time compared to 189 these days.

So unless I get through as a Professional Engineer in my CDR, I will still need to take a longer wait/queue with either Engineering Technologist (189) or Engineering Associate (190). Is my thinking correct?


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## HighNoon (Feb 2, 2014)

Hello p chuah.



> Just to clarify, my total tertiary study = (Diploma) 2 years + (Advanced Diploma) 2 years + (Degree) 3 months only


So that's actually over 4 years in total and should work out to your favour. Although I'm not sure how they regard top-up quals. Email EA and ask for their opinion.
Keep in mind though, you need a different CDR with distinct skillsets to target the 3125 trade assessment if you decide to take this path.




> So unless I get through as a Professional Engineer in my CDR, I will still need to take a longer wait/queue with either Engineering Technologist (189) or Engineering Associate (190).


Don't concern yourself with the timeframes of 189 vs 190. They aren't largely different and unpredictable. I think the tedious bit of the whole process for you would be ~5 month wait from EA with no updates.

Wait for a 2339 invitation is another story...


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## p_chuah (Mar 11, 2014)

Ok thanks HighNoon for your advice.


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## harooniqbal (Nov 19, 2015)

Hay there!
I am really confused about the Washington accord thing as I have recently got Subclass 476 visa on a Washington accord institute but I am still confused! I have a BEng(honours) Electrical Engineering and Electronics qualification from University of Liverpool, UK which says on the public notes Further learning required on Engineering council UK website! I had been reading forums online and few other people are struggling with the same question as well !
Some of my friends have got their skills accessed positive under Washington accord but some of them were told that they don't fulfil the requirements for Washington accord and they have to apply through sydney accord instead !
Please let me know what is the right path for me to apply for skill assessment as my degree is dual accredited by IEng & partially CEng


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## tycoon (Jun 10, 2016)

i All,

I'm totally a newbie here. I am very thankful if anyone can answer the below queries as I just kick-start my journey to OZ PR. Most of my questions will be mainly on Skill Assessment.

Brief background on my Edu and some queries.
Had a diploma in Electronics from Temasek Polytechnics , Singapore. Had graduated from 4years B.eng (Mech) degree from Nanyang Technological University Singapore.

(1) Am I eligible to apply under Washington Accord? If so, CDR will not be required then which documents required by Engineer Australia? (passport bio-data, education transcripts and certs and anything write-ups?)

(2) I just started working and only have 3 years experience as planning engineer. Is it correct for me to apply under ANZSCO 233512 (Mechanical Engineer) because it matches with my degree?

(3) If so, which grade should I apply? (Professional Engineer or other below grade)?

(4) Noted that IELTS is required. Will submit after received test result.

(5) All documents need to be certified true copies? Does EA require hardcopies? Or is it just uploading the scanned certified colour copies online?

(6) Would it be okay if I only go for standard assessment (only degree assessment) without assessing experience?
Do I need to do fast track if am not in urgency?


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## modibitar1 (Oct 20, 2016)

Good day all !

I am a Mechanical engineer with 5+ Years of experience as sr. product support engineer, I have recently submitted my Application to EA on fast track basis ( CDR) , I chose professional engineer, they replied back in 3 weeks time , I have received request from assessor to add document for employment ( work permit ) which is fine , in addition, I received comments in statement summary feedback as follow : 

“
Based on your career episode, it became evident that you are normally operating within a relatively well-defined technical part of mechanical engineering environment, and undertake a wide range of functions and responsibilities.
However, you are lacking to carry the professional engineering wide-ranging responsibilities taken on behalf of stakeholder and professional involvement into system integration; for synthesising overall approaches to complex situations and complex engineering problems. At the same time, being developed as an engineering associate, you have a great exposure to technical coordination as well as grounding in the area of mechanical technology and technical support. Based on this career episodes’ summary the best qualification outcome is the mechanical engineering associate “


Before I reply to this , I’m not really sure what does he mean ! , my concerns are:


1-	Does he mean that my assessment outcome will be engineer associate instead of professional engineer ? if that’s the case im afraid that I will be no more eligible for Visa 189 as engineering associate is not on SOL list . Have anyone who has bachelor degree of engineering got outcome of Engineering associate from EA ?

2-	Should I reply to him ? Does he want me to reply on this ? what would be my best comments to assessor on this ?! 


Any help/advises are much appreciated !


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