# Brit who renews papers every 6 months?



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Hello everyone,
Yesterday I was at a Thanksgiving do speaking to a Spanish woman whose daughter has recently married her long term British partner. He has been living and working in Spain for at least ten years in various positions in the hotel trade in Benidorm.
She said something about John having to renew his papers every 6 months.
What????
She also talked about him having a card which he has to renew.
Maybe it's just a case of her getting the wrong end of the stick.
I said I'd send her info about what he really has to do, but before I do I just thought I'd check - is there any wierd law in the Benidorm area that means you have to renew papers (of any kind) every six months?


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Hello everyone,
> Yesterday I was at a Thanksgiving do speaking to a Spanish woman whose daughter has recently married her long term British partner. He has been living and working in Spain for at least ten years in various positions in the hotel trade in Benidorm.
> She said something about John having to renew his papers every 6 months.
> What????
> ...


I guess it might depend on what is meant by "papers".

Could it possibly be his SIP card which was renewable every 6 months unless he did things properly and used his s1 (now gone) or filled in appropriate forms to show that he's been here for more than a year.

I presume he is filling in annual tax returns? I know she says he's working - but is that legally?


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

A lot of Spanish companies set up additional companies and transfer their employees every six months so they never have a contract longer than that. A friend does the wages of a restaurant chain in San Pedro de Alcantara and they do that. Perhaps this is what it was.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

snikpoh said:


> I guess it might depend on what is meant by "papers".
> 
> Could it possibly be his SIP card which was renewable every 6 months unless he did things properly and used his s1 (now gone) or filled in appropriate forms to show that he's been here for more than a year.
> 
> I presume he is filling in annual tax returns? I know she says he's working - but is that legally?


I'm pretty sure he's working legally. He's from a family that is well established here, has just got married, has a daughter born here, earns reasonable money...
I wondered about what papers exactly. Would it be possible to renew a SIP card every 6 months for X number of years?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Isobella said:


> A lot of Spanish companies set up additional companies and transfer their employees every six months so they never have a contract longer than that. A friend does the wages of a restaurant chain in San Pedro de Alcantara and they do that. Perhaps this is what it was.


But what papers would he as the worker have to do?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

a Brit who is a registered resident, working legally & submitting tax returns never has to renew any papers - ever - & should have a permanent SIP/tarjeta sanitaria

of course like anyone else he'd have to tell the ayto of a change of address for the padrón

that said - my daughter needs her original resident cert for her driving test & we can't find it

she has been told by the extranjería that to get a _copy_ she has to prove that *she *can support herself & essentially reapply - because she's now 18

they are asking for a 10,000€ bank balance!

we know this can't be correct - she is a student, already a legally registered resident & covered by my SS payments & I financially support her - but there was no persuading the extranjería

guess who is going through boxes which we haven't unpacked from the last move....


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> a Brit who is a registered resident, working legally & submitting tax returns never has to renew any papers - ever - & should have a permanent SIP/tarjeta sanitaria
> 
> of course like anyone else he'd have to tell the ayto of a change of address for the padrón


Right, so what _*is*_ it that he's doing every 6 months, according to my friend??


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Right, so what _*is*_ it that he's doing every 6 months, according to my friend??


I can't imagine!! Even non-EU citizens don't have to renew that frequently

there is nothing which needs renewing every 6 months

if he had a non-resident NIE cert he might think that he needed to renew that every _3 months_

he might think that he needed to renew his padrón every_ 3 months_

we know that this is unnecessary, but this myth persists because the certs have a 3 month life

it's possible that he has a temp SIP card as has been suggested - these are often issued for 6 months while the permanent one is being processed

but that's all I can think of 

thing is - if he's been here legally for 10 years he'd be entitled to a permanent SIP even if he'd never worked

I'd be _very _interested to know what he's renewing if you can find out from him


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> I'd be _very _interested to know what he's renewing if you can find out from him


Me too!
I can't find out from him, only from his mum who maybe has got everything mixed up, but I don't think so.
I'll let you know


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

xabiachica said:


> a Brit who is a registered resident, working legally & submitting tax returns never has to renew any papers - ever - & should have a permanent SIP/tarjeta sanitaria
> 
> of course like anyone else he'd have to tell the ayto of a change of address for the padrón
> 
> ...



Wow, if this were to be true, it opens up a whole new can of worms ...

What this means, in theory, is that if you move (and have to update the address) then you have to 're-apply' for a certificate and hence have to prove health care and income/savings.

Or, for those like your daughter who have 'mislaid' their certificate, they have to go through the whole process again from scratch. Even if they came here when the rules were different!


I know it's not, technically, the correct thing to do but we have scanned all our documents onto the computer. If we then need to present one to an official for any reason, then we print it off in colour - it's never yet been questioned. We still have the originals but they are now looking VERY tattered.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

snikpoh said:


> Wow, if this were to be true, it opens up a whole new can of worms ...
> 
> What this means, in theory, is that if you move (and have to update the address) then you have to 're-apply' for a certificate and hence have to prove health care and income/savings.
> 
> ...


we tried a scanned copy..... no joy

the gestor argued the point with them as well....no joy

she can't keep taking time off school to go there


she won't be taking her test this side of xmas, & I'm sure we'll find it by then - but we all quite fancied a little card

after xmas we'll start again - having been legal resident for more than 5 years we're entitled to permanent resident cards... & there's no requirement for proof of financial status for that, at all - that's clear as clear on the govt website 


and then we'll finally get around to applying for nationality .......


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

xabiachica;5868114
after xmas we'll start again - having been legal resident for more than 5 years we're entitled to permanent resident cards... & there's no requirement for proof of financial status for that said:


> Good luck - sounds ludicrous. We got our permanent resident cards at the beginning of this year and were not asked for any proof of financial resources, health cover, etc. However, we did have to produce and hand back the original A4 resident certificates, which is presumably where your problem lies.


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

xabiachica said:


> a Brit who is a registered resident, working legally & submitting tax returns never has to renew any papers - ever - & should have a permanent SIP/tarjeta sanitaria
> 
> of course like anyone else he'd have to tell the ayto of a change of address for the padrón
> 
> ...


Never have to renew paper work if a tax paying registered Brit resident?
Our targeta sanitaria cards have to be renewed every 4 years, and we have been residents since 2002.
There also seems to be a debate about the little green half laminated residency cards.
Some say they never have to be renewed, others say every five years.
Who is right?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

extranjero said:


> Never have to renew paper work if a tax paying registered Brit resident?
> Our targeta sanitaria cards have to be renewed every 4 years, and we have been residents since 2002.
> There also seems to be a debate about the little green half laminated residency cards.
> Some say they never have to be renewed, others say every five years.
> Who is right?


I don't think it's a case of who's right or wrong. I think it's a case of where you live and when you first applied to be on the EU register.
For example, I live in (Comunidad) Madrid and my little card ran out 2008. The A4 certificate I got to replace it says it's *con carácter permanente*. It seems that some people are now getting cards, and others don't have the words *con carácter permanente *and are having to renew them. No one's inventing it; it's just different variations on a theme.


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## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I don't think it's a case of who's right or wrong. I think it's a case of where you live and when you first applied to be on the EU register.
> For example, I live in (Comunidad) Madrid and my little card ran out 2008. The A4 certificate I got to replace it says it's *con carácter permanente*. It seems that some people are now getting cards, and others don't have the words *con carácter permanente *and are having to renew them. No one's inventing it; it's just different variations on a theme.


The EU Registration, which replaced the Residencia for EU Citizens was not issued after April 2007. Thus when one's residencia card expired they applied for the EU citizens certificate, which is permanent and never needs renewing, unless one changes their address or nationality. I did that last year.

The NIE certificate, applied for by Non Residents is valid for 3 months, although one keeps the same number.

The Residencia, required by non EU citizens, is I believe valid for 5 years in the first instance, and now when renewed is valid for 10 years (it used to be always valid for only 5 years but was revised).

The same law applies to the whole of Spain (albeit that some areas may have slightly different interpretations).


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

larryzx said:


> The EU Registration, which replaced the Residencia for EU Citizens was not issued after April 2007. Thus when one's residencia card expired they applied for the EU citizens certificate, which is permanent and never needs renewing, unless one changes their address or nationality. I did that last year.
> 
> The same law applies to the whole of Spain (albeit that some areas may have slightly different interpretations).


In the past there have been threads on this very subject and people on the forum have posted that those words, *con carácter permanente,* do not appear on their certificates, and here is an, albeit small, example from 2010









It seems that we are not all equal.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

larryzx said:


> The EU Registration, which replaced the Residencia for EU Citizens was not issued after April 2007. Thus when one's residencia card expired they applied for the EU citizens certificate, which is permanent and never needs renewing, unless one changes their address or nationality. I did that last year.
> 
> The NIE certificate, applied for by Non Residents is valid for 3 months, although one keeps the same number.
> 
> ...



Oh dear Larry, you seem to have it wrong ...


Some certificates state that they are permanent and some don't. There used to be (still is?) a box on EX18 asking if you want it to be permanent or not. We did ours in 2006/7 and they don't say permanent on them. Others who did it at the same time and at the same place, have certificates that do say permanent.

In theory, if your certificate does not say that it's permanent, you either have to renew every 5 years or you can do as most do, and just carry on regardless.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

_*under current rules*_, after you have been a legal resident for 5 years you are then a permanent resident & nothing needs to be renewed

when someone initially registers it should be when they first arrive, so they wouldn't be given one with '*con carácter permanente' *on it

if, after those 5 years, they want a cert/card with '*con carácter permanente' *on it, they can ask for one - but it isn't obligatory to do so

http://www.interior.gob.es/web/serv...ion-europea/residencia-de-caracter-permanente


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## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

Pesky Wesky said:


> In the past there have been threads on this very subject and people on the forum have posted that those words, *con carácter permanente,* do not appear on their certificates, and here is an, albeit small, example from 2010
> ]
> 
> It seems that we are not all equal.


I have been resident since 1997. The 'card' I have was issued in July 2014, is just green paper but the size of a credit card with the holder's details on the front and info on the back. On mine it shows that I have been permanent since 1997. I assume that if it was a first card, it would not show anything similar, as the holder would have only been resident since the date of issue of the paper/card, which they have.

They are valid forever (or until some bright spark decides to change the law) thus do not need anything regarding 'carácter permanente' they just are. If they were not they would have a date when they need to be renewed, i.e. as the residencia cards for non EU citizens which whilst having 'PERMANENTE' printed on them have a renewal date too.

Just to add. I renewed my green card this year, as I had changed my nationality. I did not have to prove anything, I just filed in the application form, paid the fee at the bank, and exchanged my old card.

PS please note there have been a couple more posts since I stared writing my reply, so I have not ignored them..


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

We've had the green A4 sheets since we became resident in 2008. They don't have an expiry date and they don't mention _carácter permanente_. This is the first I've heard of being able to swap them for cards or having to renew them. Does anyone have a definitive answer on this?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

larryzx said:


> I have been resident since 1997. The 'card' I have was issued in July 2014, is just green paper but the size of a credit card with the holder's details on the front and info on the back. On mine it shows that I have been permanent since 1997. I assume that if it was a first card, it would not show anything similar, as the holder would have only been resident since the date of issue of the paper/card, which they have.
> 
> They are valid forever (or until some bright spark decides to change the law) thus do not need anything regarding 'carácter permanente' they just are. If they were not they would have a date when they need to be renewed, i.e. as the residencia cards for non EU citizens which whilst having 'PERMANENTE' printed on them have a renewal date too.
> 
> ...


*Yep, j*ust as I said in post #14, it depends, and one of the things it depends on is where you live!
And I've been recognised as a resident since 1991, although I was here before that when the ID was a turquoise blue card and you got an "a" for a year and a "b" for 5. 
*Not that it matters, at all*


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Alcalaina said:


> We've had the green A4 sheets since we became resident in 2008. They don't have an expiry date and they don't mention _carácter permanente_. This is the first I've heard of being able to swap them for cards or having to renew them. Does anyone have a definitive answer on this?


We got the green A4 sheets in 2007, just after the old style residencia cards were scrapped. Like yours, they didn't say anything about caracter permanente, and I remember we didn't tick the box for that when we were applying for them (after reading the guidance notes I didn't think you could do that unless you'd been a resident for 5 years).

From what I read subsequently I don't think you are required to replace the certificates but can do so if you wish, which we did earlier this year. 

Neither our original certificates nor the new half laminated cards have any expiry date.


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## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

Finally. 

Once an EU citizen has the green card/paper, unless they change their status (nationality for example) change their address, or lose the document, they never need to do anything. It is permanent. 

However, if one wishes to replace the A4 sheet with a credit card size, they are free to do so. 

Just complete the application form , pay at the bank and present them with the old document (or if lost they usually require a copy of a denuncia for the report of the loss) at the documentation section of the National Police for their area.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

larryzx said:


> Finally.
> 
> Once an EU citizen has the green card/paper, unless they change their status (nationality for example) change their address, or lose the document, they never need to do anything. It is permanent.
> 
> ...


tell that to my local extranjería......

I know they are wrong - but no-one there will listen

see my post #6 on this thread


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Thank you Larry and Lynn. I don't think I'll bother as I use my Spanish driving licence as ID (it has my NIE and address on it).


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## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

xabiachica said:


> tell that to my local extranjería......
> 
> I know they are wrong - but no-one there will listen
> 
> see my post #6 on this thread


On four occasions, on behalf of others, I have asked for the complaints form in the Comisaria. It has so far, always resulted in a more 'sensible/reasonable' response from the police.

NB the green card/paper, as printed in bold letters on it, is not a legal ID in any circumstances. The only legal ID for Brits, Irish etc., is one's original Passport or a copy certified by the consulate. Nothing else. That said, as most people do not know what constitutes a legal ID, I too normally use my Spanish DL and even sometimes my Residence Card which expired in April 2007.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> Thank you Larry and Lynn. I don't think I'll bother as I use my Spanish driving licence as ID (it has my NIE and address on it).


I always use my Spanish driving licence. The only time I need the green certificate is when I go to Hacienda and Seguridad Social for alta y baja de autonomos (which I won't have to do any more as I have the digital signature). Even to vote the driving licence was accepted


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

larryzx said:


> On four occasions, on behalf of others, I have asked for the complaints form in the Comisaria. It has so far, always resulted in a more 'sensible/reasonable' response from the police.
> 
> NB the green card/paper, as printed in bold letters on it, is not a legal ID,


if only I / we had time to go back

it can wait - our scanned copy has been accepted by the driving school for now & her passport as ID

they will need an original res cert though before she takes her test


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> Thank you Larry and Lynn. I don't think I'll bother as I use my Spanish driving licence as ID (it has my NIE and address on it).


Mine only has my NIE, no address!


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## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

baldilocks said:


> Mine only has my NIE, no address!


Agreed. Well spotted sir. I think it's the DL number but of course that is the same as one's NIE.


In passing, a passport does not have an address either. Good thing for me that I still have my expired Residencia !


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I don't think it's a case of who's right or wrong. I think it's a case of where you live and when you first applied to be on the EU register.
> For example, I live in (Comunidad) Madrid and my little card ran out 2008. The A4 certificate I got to replace it says it's *con carácter permanente*. It seems that some people are now getting cards, and others don't have the words *con carácter permanente *and are having to renew them. No one's inventing it; it's just different variations on a theme.


Regardless of which type & what it may or may not say on the paper it is illegal under EU rules, nor for you to re-register having attained the age of 18 . 

Once registered it is for life.once past 5 years you have permanent residency & can only be asked to leave ( for a maximum period of 3 years ) for 3 reasons. Once you have been here 10 years it is 1 reason & nigh on impossible to remove you.


Snikpoh; I always use a copy on the very ,very ,very rare occasions that I am asked for it. 

Any foreign , i.e. not Spanish,assesoria will automatically hold it up to the light to check that it is an original as it will have the Spanish coat of arms watermark. They always check at trafico as they'll only accept originals. The soc.sec. & health people, banks , etc; appear to have no idea that there are colour photo-copies ? :lol:


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