# go to Belize and back to fulfill tourist visa requirements



## cherylrad (Apr 30, 2013)

We will be living in Puerto Morelos for at least a year on tourist visas. We will be going back to the states at Christmas but will need to leave Mexico one more time before the year is up to not overstay the 180 day limit. Is it okay to just cross the border into Belize for a few days and then the time in Mexico is reset?
Thank you!


----------



## joaquinx (Jul 3, 2010)

Yes, it is done my many all the time.


----------



## Longford (May 25, 2012)

Tourist cards are meant for tourists. People residing in Mexico are expected to apply for and obtain a visa which will permit them to do that.


----------



## cherylrad (Apr 30, 2013)

We are planning on being in Mexico for a while before planning on applying for the visa since we'd like to see how school is for our three kids. We have had that recommended to us since the visa apllication process is expensive and lengthy. How much does one expect to pay to get a visa?


----------



## Longford (May 25, 2012)

cherylrad said:


> We are planning on being in Mexico for a while before planning on applying for the visa since we'd like to see how school is for our three kids. We have had that recommended to us since the visa apllication process is expensive and lengthy. How much does one expect to pay to get a visa?


It's clearer to me now that you're going to be a resident as contrasted with a tourist, and I think in this instance you're required to obtain a visa which will permit you to legally reside in Mexico. "How does one expect to pay to get a visa?" I'm not certain I understand the question, but one pays for it with cash they have. If it's too expensive at this point, the cost will only likely rise in the future. There are minimum income or other standards required to obtain a visa to reside in Mexico. Are you familiar with them? Thanks.


----------



## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

cherylrad said:


> We are planning on being in Mexico for a while before planning on applying for the visa since we'd like to see how school is for our three kids. We have had that recommended to us since the visa apllication process is expensive and lengthy. How much does one expect to pay to get a visa?


The application process can take awhile, maybe a month or several. The cost depends on the type of visa. Fees are a few thousand pesos a year for the renewable visas and a one time cost of about $5000 pesos for a permanent visa. As mentioned above, there are other requirements for visas in addition to the fees.


----------



## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

Note that you cannot leave Mexico without your foreign plated vehicle if on a Tourist Permit. The car must go with you, even if you only need to leave briefly to re-enter on a fresh 180 day permit.
I suggest you talk to the nearest Mexican consulate about residence visas.


----------



## Guategringo (Nov 9, 2012)

I know that legally you should not be renewing a tourist card if you plan to be a resident, but there are probably thousands of expats doing just that... the choice is your, we have no right to judge you on what you do or do not do with regard to your residency status. 

If you choose to visit Belize, for whatever reason I suggest one of the following ways. From Chetumal you can take a speed boat ferry to Ambergris Caye and visit San Pedro. The Caye is one of the lovliest places there is. It is as close to heaven without being there. Street of sand, golf carts for travel and no shirts, no shoes, no problem!!! Or leave Mexico through Chetumal and visit Corazol the last town in Belize before the border. I remember there is a very nice hotel/restaurant there and if you send me a PM I can let you know what places are nice to visit there as well as in San Pedro.

Another alternative is to fly to Cuba from Cancun. This comment will probably draw many negative posts for me but I have flown to Habana at least a dozen times from Cancun.


----------



## cherylrad (Apr 30, 2013)

Thank you for your replies. It sounds like we should probably begin the application process for the temporary visa. I have emailed the consulate here in California and left a voicemail as well to try to schedule an appointment. I have been looking online for a list of documentation that will be needed at the appointment but haven't found one so far. Does anyone have a link to such a list?
Also, from what I understand, we begin the application process here in California, and then it is completed in Mexico. Is that correct? Thanks again.


----------



## cherylrad (Apr 30, 2013)

Guategringo, Belize sounds beautiful. Thank you for the idea of riding the ferry to Ambergris Caye. That will have to be on our list for the year


----------



## FHBOY (Jun 15, 2010)

cherylrad said:


> Thank you for your replies. It sounds like we should probably begin the application process for the temporary visa. I have emailed the consulate here in California and left a voicemail as well to try to schedule an appointment. I have been looking online for a list of documentation that will be needed at the appointment but haven't found one so far. Does anyone have a link to such a list?
> Also, from what I understand, we begin the application process here in California, and then it is completed in Mexico. Is that correct? Thanks again.


Having just (relatively) completed the Permanente/Temporada visa process at the consulate in DC, I can tell you if you just follow the rules it is not too difficult. You will need to call them, establish a rapport with the person on the phone and ask for him/her when you visit. You'll need your passport, you'll need a couple of head (passport) shots. For a Permanente you'll need to show *EITHER* a minimum amount of monthly income (check with the person you call) *OR* investments in the USA of a certain amount...not both (IRA's and 401K's count). 

If you are bringing your spouse along, (s)he can qualify to come along as either a Permanente (with the same financial requirements) or a Temporada, which has a lower financial threshold.

The Mexican consulate will issue you an entrance visa and will place it in your passport. When you arrive at whatever port of entry you chose, make sure 1) you fill out your FMM and get it stamped and 2) get your passport stamped. Remember, what you got form the consulate is NOT your visa, it is merely an entrance visa, and under the new rules, you cannot live here in Mexico and get an entry visa, you need to do it in your home country.

Once you are here, I suggest you find a reputable advocate or representative, to help you through the immigration process. You will need to pay for this and your representative will tell you how much your visa will be (a Permanente is less expensive than a Temporada), and then expect the process to take about 6 - 8 weeks until you get your "green cards".

As to your vehicle, you can get a TIP online at Banjercito.com [sic]. Most new vehicles cost about $300 USD, refundable when you leave the country. As a Permanente you cannot own a foreign plated car, so if your spouse is Temporada, have them register it, and attach it to his/her passport. 

Remember you cannot sell your USA/Canada plated vehicle in Mexico and the nationalize it may be quite dear. Think of selling it in your country and buying a Mexican plated car.

Lastly...and very important DO NOT BUY a place to live when you move. RENT FIRST - long term. NO matter what you've seen on vacations, the internet, ads TV and such, you will never really know if a place is for you until you've lived here for a while.

Becoming a part of this wonderful country is not that expensive or difficult. Just follow the rules, don't try and beat the system, and it will produce less tress and happy lives.

Good Luck.

I'm a newbie who took three years to get here and have lived here for about five months now. Lessons come hard, experience is the best teacher.


----------



## Longford (May 25, 2012)

Guategringo said:


> I know that legally you should not be renewing a tourist card if you plan to be a resident, but there are probably thousands of expats doing just that... the choice is your, we have no right to judge you on what you do or do not do with regard to your residency status.


Encouraging compliance with the law should be the standard we encourage. There's nothing wrong with participants responding to what someone posts in a discussion, provided we do so in accordance with the rules established by the website owner. Soliciting responses and the opinions received are why someone asks quewtions on a web forum.


----------



## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Longford said:


> Encouraging compliance with the law should be the standard we encourage. There's nothing wrong with participants responding to what someone posts in a discussion, provided we do so in accordance with the rules established by the website owner. Soliciting responses and the opinions received are why someone asks quewtions on a web forum.





Guategringo said:


> I know that legally you should not be renewing a tourist card if you plan to be a resident, but there are probably thousands of expats doing just that... the choice is your, we have no right to judge you on what you do or do not do with regard to your residency status. …


I have not seen any evidence that it is illegal to enter Mexico multiple times in succession on a tourist permit. A few people have posted that they have been told by Mexican immigration employees that it is permissible. A few people post that they believe it is illegal.

I would like to see someone point to the legislative act which puts limitations on the number of tourist permits, or on the time required between them. This may be an example where people obtaining multiple successive tourist permit (by leaving the country briefly every 180 days) are violating the spirit of the law but not the letter of the law.

I found an interesting essay by Matthew T. Gordon and Stephen Garcia, a psychologist/sociologist at the University of Michigan. Gordon apparently is or was Garcia's student. The essay is entitled, The Letter versus the Spirit of the Law. In it, they discuss issues of social norms and the enforcement of laws. They use an example of the laws against jaywalking and murder to illustrate that sometimes laws are interpreted loosely and sometimes strictly.

In their conclusion, they propose five tenets:

1. The letter of the law is a distinct entity from the spirit of the law.
2. The letter of the law is what the law states; the spirit of the law is a social and moral consensus of the interpretation of the letter.
3. a. People think it is unfair when enforcement occurs between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law.
b. People think it is fair when enforcement occurs within a certain proximity of the spirit of the law.
c. People think it is unfair when enforcement begins too far beyond the spirit of the law.
4. People think it is unfair to violate the spirit of the law regardless of action relative to letter of the law.
5. The spirit of the law is violated when behavior violates social norms with regard to social and moral acceptability.

We can apply their analysis to the case of someone who spends 180 days in Mexico on a tourist visa, leaves the country for a day or two, then returns for another 180 days, possibly repeating this process every 180 days. It seems clear that they are not violating the letter of the law. The question is: Are they violating the spirit of the law? And, if so, should it be considered "unfair". 

Most of the examples considered in the essay are cases where people are actually violating a law in some degree, such as speeding or jaywalking. In our case we have a situation where people are not actually violating the law at all, but may be violating the intent of the law. However, the essay also includes discussion of a similar situation. 

They set up two hypothetical situations. The law states that handicapped parking spaces are reserved for cars with handicapped placards. In one case a handicapped person driving a friend's car with no handicap placard parks in a handicapped space, violating the letter but not the spirit of the law. In the other, a non-handicapped person driving a handicapped friend's car with placard parks in a handicapped space, violating the spirit of the law but not the letter of the law.

The latter case seems unfair, a healthy person is taking advantage of the letter of the law, and possibly depriving a person who actually needs the space. The spirit of the law is violated and harm is potentially done.

In the case of a person living in Mexico as a part or full-time resident on tourist permits, they are not violating the letter of the law. They may be violating the spirit of the law. The important question to my mind is: What harm are they doing? It seems to me that Mexico benefits from the dollars that they bring into the country just as Mexico benefits from the dollars that true tourists spend in the country. The only one who loses from this violation of the spirit of the law is the person doing the violating, they are forced to go through the inconvenience of getting a new permit twice a year. No one else is harmed and there is even benefit to their action. It is true that the fee paid to the government for two tourist permits is less than the annual visa fee for a Residente Temporal visa, but, on balance that is a small fraction of the money the Mexican economy would lose if they were to not come at all.

In summary, I have no problem with people who choose to be quasi-permanent tourists in Mexico. And, from everything I read, Mexican immigration also has no problem with them.


----------



## mes1952 (Dec 11, 2012)

This is why so many Americans live at the border towns as the rules and regulations are almost nonexistent when it comes to tourist visas. I know of no one living here for 2 years in Baja Norte that has (or ever has) a tourist visa and changed their foreign license plates or paid vehicle fees. It is ignored or overlooked by the Mexican officials as they are accustomed to Americans living here and working in the San Diego area (although the economy there is not good).


----------



## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

What about for 3 years and just over a year ago I asked 3 different INM officers giving out FMM cards at the Mexicali and TJ airports: "Can I keep this FMM and go back to San Diego and then come back here [Mexico] or do I need to get a new FMM when I fly south again". All three stated: "You can come and go to San Diego whenever you want and fly with this FMM for up to 180 days, just turn it in to INM before the date reaches the 180 days and you will be legally in Mexico"

Also the same IMN officer at the Mexicali airport issued FMTs and FMMs to me every 180 days or slightly less and knew me after awhile for 4 years until I did a tramite to RT in Nov.


----------



## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

One reason some people are annoyed by those who live in Mexico on tourist cards for years is this: those of us who follow the rules and go every year to INM to renew our resident cards have to go through a lot of red tape and pay a substantial amount of money to the Mexican government while those who renew their "tourist" cards do not. Just my opinion, of course.


----------



## joaquinx (Jul 3, 2010)

Isla Verde said:


> One reason some people are annoyed by those who live in Mexico on tourist cards for years is this: those of us who follow the rules and go every year to INM to renew our resident cards have to go through a lot of red tape and pay a substantial amount of money to the Mexican government while those who renew their "tourist" cards do not. Just my opinion, of course.


If you live in Mexico City and wanted to renew your FMM by heading up to Nuevo Laredo twice a year, the cost is around 5,000 pesos for the bus alone.


----------



## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

joaquinx said:


> If you live in Mexico City and wanted to renew your FMM by heading up to Nuevo Laredo twice a year, the cost is around 5,000 pesos for the bus alone.


Five thousand pesos even with an INAPAM card?

From what I've read on this and other expat forums, a large number of those expats who stay here on tourist cards live much closer to the border than I do, ¿verdad?


----------



## Guategringo (Nov 9, 2012)

Isla Verde said:


> Five thousand pesos even with an INAPAM card?
> 
> From what I've read on this and other expat forums, a large number of those expats who stay here on tourist cards live much closer to the border than I do, ¿verdad?


Isla you need to think outside the box. You might be upset about people spending less by leaving the country every 180 days, but as Tundra said it is all about the spirit or the letter of the law. Maybe you get upset because you do not have the intestinal fortitude to do it yourself at one time, not because they are in your opinion skirting the law.


----------



## joaquinx (Jul 3, 2010)

Isla Verde said:


> Five thousand pesos even with an INAPAM card?
> 
> From what I've read on this and other expat forums, a large number of those expats who stay here on tourist cards live much closer to the border than I do, ¿verdad?


Can you get an INAPAM card with a FMM? I doubt it. Who knows where the _mojado gringos_ live.


----------



## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

joaquinx said:


> Can you get an INAPAM card with a FMM? I doubt it. Who knows where the _mojado gringos_ live.


You're right about that. My mistake.


----------



## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Guategringo said:


> Isla you need to think outside the box. You might be upset about people spending less by leaving the country every 180 days, but as Tundra said it is all about the spirit or the letter of the law. Maybe you get upset because you do not have the intestinal fortitude to do it yourself at one time, not because they are in your opinion skirting the law.


I am not upset, just annoyed sometimes. precisely because these people are skirting the law. I have lots of intestinal fortitude, which I use every year when I spend hours and days at INM renewing my visa.


----------



## joaquinx (Jul 3, 2010)

Isla Verde said:


> I am not upset, just annoyed sometimes. precisely because these people are skirting the law. I have lots of intestinal fortitude, which I use every year when I spend hours and days at INM renewing my visa.


I agree. I have to go to el centro and find a parking place or take a taxi just to get the latest requirements. Gather all the stuff, copies of stuff, photos. Find a parking place or take a taxi. Turn the stuff in and go to the bank and pay the 3,000 odd pesos. Take the receipt back with two copies. Check the Internet to see if it is ready. Go back and try and find a parking place of take a taxi. I'll be glad when I get my PR and don't have to return. 

Went down on the 15th of April and turned all the stuff in and the agent said that it would take 20 day (mas o menos). Called yesterday and was told that it will take another month. Life goes on.


----------



## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

joaquinx said:


> I agree. I have to go to el centro and find a parking place or take a taxi just to get the latest requirements. Gather all the stuff, copies of stuff, photos. Find a parking place or take a taxi. Turn the stuff in and go to the bank and pay the 3,000 odd pesos. Take the receipt back with two copies. Check the Internet to see if it is ready. Go back and try and find a parking place of take a taxi. I'll be glad when I get my PR and don't have to return.
> 
> Went down on the 15th of April and turned all the stuff in and the agent said that it would take 20 day (mas o menos). Called yesterday and was told that it will take another month. Life goes on.


Living in Mexico City, I do have one advantage over you, joaquin. I just have to take 2 bus rides, one short and one longish, to get to the INM office, a trip that takes about 45 minutes in total, if I don't go during rush hour.

Sorry to hear it's taking so long for you to get your plastic card. A friend here in the D.F. waited over 3 months to get his. I've only been waiting for two weeks, but I'm not holding my mouth that it will be ready in another two weeks, though that's what I was told when I turned in all my paperwork and paid the first of two fees.


----------



## vantexan (Sep 4, 2011)

Those who live on tourist cards also generate alot of revenue for the economy by traveling to and from the border, which is certainly not lost on the Mexican government. And for those of us without the income needed to meet permanent requirements, it's really the only avenue open to us. But, if it'll make Longford happy, I'm only looking to move to Mexico in two years and then only stay until my dog passes away. Then it's on to cheaper pastures.


----------



## joaquinx (Jul 3, 2010)

Longford didn't say that it was illegal, simply morally repugnant. Having done this before I qualified for an FM3 (at the time), you run the risk of facing a INM agent at the border who will refuse to sign your FMM. I was almost on my bad knees to beg.


----------



## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

chicois8 said:


> Vantexan: I did not say Longford said it was illegal,but he does write statements like this" Encouraging compliance with the law should be the standard we encourage."
> 
> Isla wrote:
> 
> I do not know what "law" she is referring too? Please shoe me "the law"........


Perhaps I should have written "skirting the 'spirit of the law' ". I think that one reason I've brought this up is that I was still thinking of the previous name of the FMM, the FMT, with the T standing for "tourist". In my eyes, living in a country for several years on a so-called tourist card is hardly being a tourist, but that's what I get for being a nit-picker.


----------



## vantexan (Sep 4, 2011)

chicois8 said:


> Vantexan: I did not say Longford said it was illegal,but he does write statements like this" Encouraging compliance with the law should be the standard we encourage.".


You've got me confused with JoaquinX.


----------



## vantexan (Sep 4, 2011)

joaquinx said:


> Longford didn't say that it was illegal, simply morally repugnant. Having done this before I qualified for an FM3 (at the time), you run the risk of facing a INM agent at the border who will refuse to sign your FMM. I was almost on my bad knees to beg.


"Morally repugnant" implies something disgusting that is causing harm in some way. Really?


----------



## chicois8 (Aug 8, 2009)

vantexan said:


> You've got me confused with JoaquinX.


sorry........


----------



## cscscs007 (Jan 8, 2011)

FMT - Forma Migratoria Para Turista

FMM - Forma Migratoria Multiple

Tourist replaced with Multiple (Entry). Speaks for itself.


----------



## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

cscscs007 said:


> FMT - Forma Migratoria Para Turista
> 
> FMM - Forma Migratoria Multiple
> 
> Tourist replaced with Multiple (Entry). Speaks for itself.


According to this, that's not what FMM means:

"The Multiple Migratory Form (FMM) is an immigration document issued by the National
Immigration Institute that allows foreigners (Non Mexican) to enter Mexico in the following 
categories:
Visitor without permission to work for up to 180 days (Non Multiple Entry) Visitor with permission to work for up to 180 days (Non Multiple Entry)
Visitor on humanitarian purposes for up to 180 days"

FMM MEXICO VISA FORM


----------



## cscscs007 (Jan 8, 2011)

Here is the actual instructions from INM (National Immigration Institute) for an FMM form. Please someone show me where it says on this "official" webpage document from INM where it says I am only allowed 180 days per year. The only thing I see is where my single stay cannot exceed 180 days. Leaving the country for 1 day (overnight) would satisfy the law, and one could return and get another the very next day.

Now, I really do not understand this but I did have this happen. My brother-in-law was going to Mexico for a month (he is both Mexican and US citizen born in Mexico). He does not need to get an FMM because of his citizenship, but he still needs a temporary vehicle permit for his US vehicle. His vehicle permit was "denied" because a Mexican living abroad (out of the country) is only allowed 1 temporary vehicle permit per year. As luck would have it he had planned his vacation exactly one year apart so he only had to wait at the border until midnight, and sure enough as soon as the clock went past midnight, his permit could be issued. 

I know someone is saying what the heck does that have to do with this post. Well, I asked the person at the Banjercito counter if I was allowed only 1 permit also per year. She told me that Tourists are allowed 2 temporary vehicle permits per year, valid for 180 days (each). She pointed to a poster on the wall, and sure enough it was stated exactly as she said.

So, why would renewing an FMM card after 180 days be wrong when I can renew my temporary vehicle permit 2 times a year for 180 days each? 

Mexico has the same policy as the US does for a B2 visa. You are allowed to leave the country for short trips to another country without being required to turn in your FMM. The requirement is a person must turn in the FMM upon leaving the country (end of vacation for example) or the expiration date listed on the FMM.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...=Osm_J1Xl2A3tC3CRCwBSJA&bvm=bv.45960087,d.eWU


----------



## sunnyvmx (Mar 14, 2010)

So now I must ask this question: It is the letter of the law that anyone over 60 with the proper visa may obtain and use the INAPAM card for discounts. But in the spirit of the law was this truly intended for expats as guests of this country or for Mexicans in their home country that might necessarily need the discounts.

There are two seats per bus reserved for use with an INAPAM card. As an expat using the card are you possibly denying a needful and deserving Mexican travel on that bus by forcing him or her to pay full price? Sorry, but I find this morally repugnant.


----------



## FHBOY (Jun 15, 2010)

1. I do not always agree with Longford, but in this case I do. "Encouraging compliance with the law should be the standard we encourage." Nowhere does he imply anything more than making a common sense statement.

2. A question: If we, as USAers or Canadians find a Mexican using the same tactics to remain in the USA/Canada, would we be morally outraged? Would we still have the same stand on letter vs. spirit of the law?

3. Yes, FMM's do add to the economy and if this was the only consideration then why oppose it?

4. Have we drifted into the realm of individual morality and not spirit vs. letter of the law? Here we cannot debate. The INAPAM card part of this discussion could be carried over to the requirement that retired expats (like myself) cannot work for compensation. From what is understood, it is so an expat will not take a job that would otherwise go to a Mexican citizen. How many expats would fight this? Isn't something that expats tacitly agreed to when applying for the visa? Is taking a seat on a bus analogous to this, except on an individual morality basis or in scale?

Basically, expats have made a contract with the Mexican government: the letter of the law. How expats use the spirit of the law is an individual moral choice.

Just a thought from one waiting for his RP card.


----------



## vantexan (Sep 4, 2011)

FHBOY said:


> 1. I do not always agree with Longford, but in this case I do. "Encouraging compliance with the law should be the standard we encourage." Nowhere does he imply anything more than making a common sense statement.
> 
> 2. A question: If we, as USAers or Canadians find a Mexican using the same tactics to remain in the USA/Canada, would we be morally outraged? Would we still have the same stand on letter vs. spirit of the law?
> 
> ...


The letter of the law doesn't prevent the living in Mexico on tourist cards and Mexican officials have said so. The spirit of the law is open to interpretation and it's not a matter of morality. If it were which situation would you consider morally upright: many thousands leaving Mexico because they couldn't meet the new financial requirements, or many thousands contributing to the Mexican economy and helping Mexicans improve their lives? And I find it extraordinary that millions of Mexicans are in the U.S. illegally, sending billions home every year, and we are arguing over thousands of Americans legally in Mexico paying their way. I have no problem with Mexicans heading north to improve their lives, but many Americans in industries like construction have been negatively impacted by Latin Americans willing to work for less. Hats off to their work ethic, but a U.S. citizen trying to pay a mortgage and feed kids might feel differently. So if Mexicophiles are willing to turn a blind eye to that then please don't look down your nose at people moving to Mexico to make ends meet, especially if they've had their working lives impacted by cheap labor.


----------



## cscscs007 (Jan 8, 2011)

If compliance with the law needs to be followed then those expats that no longer meet the economic thresh hold should also comply with the new regulations instead of relying on the "clause" that is presented to them.

Is turning in a 180 day permit before expiration considered compliance with the law? Yes.
There is no exclusion time before one can obtain another 180 permit, so returning the next day would be in compliance under the letter of the law.

So, this loophole that retirees are using I consider the same loophole as what these individuals are also using. What I see is people want to use the system to their benefit, but when others wish to do the same thing, oh no, we can't have that. 

Using the INAPAM card is really set up by the govt. to aid Mexican seniors, the poor, those with children, and so forth. Those expatriates who use the INAPAM card are also using a "loophole" to their advantage. But this is considered compliance with the law because they meet the qualifications set forth under the law even though they did not pay taxes into the system during their working years.

Now, in my case, I have the honor of being married to a Mexican and we have a family together. I do not need to worry about financial requirements, nor do I need worry about an INAPAM card as I am too young to meet the qualifications. Does it bother me that individuals use the "loopholes" that is available to them? No, it does not. Why? 

I refuse to look at another's situation and insert my philosophy as to right and wrong. If those who wish to use the loophole for financial qualifications available to them, I say do it. If those who are unable to meet the financial requirements and instead renew an FMM, I say do it. If those who feel that they need an INAPAM card to make it financially or for whatever reason, I say do it. All of these situations may be questionable, but they are all legal and considered to be in compliance with the law.

Those who feel morally obligated to denigrate others for using the system as it is in place, best not be utilizing a loophole of their own. One cannot sit there and say to another something is not right when they themselves are also dipping into the goody bag.


----------



## chicois8 (Aug 8, 2009)

FHBOY states:"1. I do not always agree with Longford, but in this case I do. "Encouraging compliance with the law should be the standard we encourage." Nowhere does he imply anything more than making a common sense statement."

Compliance with what law, Longfords?

Letter of the law, what law are you referring to, I would love for anyone to site an officinal Mexican Government website that states living in Mexico on FMM's are against the law....I'm not from Missouri but *SHOW ME*.......


----------



## mickisue1 (Mar 10, 2012)

vantexan said:


> The letter of the law doesn't prevent the living in Mexico on tourist cards and Mexican officials have said so. The spirit of the law is open to interpretation and it's not a matter of morality. If it were which situation would you consider morally upright: many thousands leaving Mexico because they couldn't meet the new financial requirements, or many thousands contributing to the Mexican economy and helping Mexicans improve their lives? And I find it extraordinary that millions of Mexicans are in the U.S. illegally, sending billions home every year, and we are arguing over thousands of Americans legally in Mexico paying their way. I have no problem with Mexicans heading north to improve their lives, but many Americans in industries like construction have been negatively impacted by Latin Americans willing to work for less. Hats off to their work ethic, but a U.S. citizen trying to pay a mortgage and feed kids might feel differently. So if Mexicophiles are willing to turn a blind eye to that then please don't look down your nose at people moving to Mexico to make ends meet, especially if they've had their working lives impacted by cheap labor.


How many of the "spirit of the law" folks from the US and Canada are paying income taxes to MX? In the US, whether you have a valid SS number or not, your employer is required to collect taxes for you, for both income and FICA. And, unless you somehow find a way to become a citizen, none of your FICA taxes are going to help you one whit.

Even my company, with with I contract independently, collects taxes on the wholesale profits and royalties that it sends to any distributor who registers without a SS number. They don't ask questions about the presence or absence of the number. But if you don't have one, they WILL take income taxes, both for the federal government, and your state of residence, from your checks.

That is absolutely the opposite of what happens in MX. One could argue that the money spent by expats contributes indirectly to the tax bottom line, as it increases the income of vendors. But the same is true with illegal immigrants to the US, in addition to the taxes that they pay.


----------



## FHBOY (Jun 15, 2010)

chicois8 said:


> FHBOY states:"1. I do not always agree with Longford, but in this case I do. "Encouraging compliance with the law should be the standard we encourage." Nowhere does he imply anything more than making a common sense statement."
> 
> Compliance with what law, Longfords?
> 
> Letter of the law, what law are you referring to, I would love for anyone to site an officinal Mexican Government website that states living in Mexico on FMM's are against the law....I'm not from Missouri but *SHOW ME*.......


Maybe the support of "compliance" was not aimed at any specific law, per se, but a general manner of behavior. My response was not based on a citation of a specific law, but a way of living.

It was, in retrospect, a good send off to the discussion, letter vs spirit, individual values, etc.


----------



## vantexan (Sep 4, 2011)

mickisue1 said:


> How many of the "spirit of the law" folks from the US and Canada are paying income taxes to MX? In the US, whether you have a valid SS number or not, your employer is required to collect taxes for you, for both income and FICA. And, unless you somehow find a way to become a citizen, none of your FICA taxes are going to help you one whit.
> 
> Even my company, with with I contract independently, collects taxes on the wholesale profits and royalties that it sends to any distributor who registers without a SS number. They don't ask questions about the presence or absence of the number. But if you don't have one, they WILL take income taxes, both for the federal government, and your state of residence, from your checks.
> 
> That is absolutely the opposite of what happens in MX. One could argue that the money spent by expats contributes indirectly to the tax bottom line, as it increases the income of vendors. But the same is true with illegal immigrants to the US, in addition to the taxes that they pay.


My post wasn't about the right or wrong of illegal immigration in the States, just comparing a relative few living legally in Mexico who's actions are called morally repugnant and referred to as bottom feeders, with millions who are in the States illegally, who, while contributing greatly to the U.S., also have negative impacts on American workers, on crime, on social safety nets. If that's ok with most here, fine, but apply the same empathy to those of us just trying to get by. I don't think the Mexican government has a problem with living on tourist cards, just certain expats who apparently don't like poor Americans.


----------



## chicois8 (Aug 8, 2009)

FHBOY states:"1. I do not always agree with Longford, but in this case I do. "Encouraging compliance with the law ....

You wrote you agree with longford who wrote : "Encouraging compliance with the law " 

where is this law of the land written down?


----------



## FHBOY (Jun 15, 2010)

chicois8 said:


> FHBOY states:"1. I do not always agree with Longford, but in this case I do. "Encouraging compliance with the law ....
> 
> You wrote you agree with longford who wrote : "Encouraging compliance with the law "
> 
> where is this law of the land written down?


I do not want this to turn personal...that is not what we are here for, but I said that I was agreeing with Longford on a philosophical stance, rather than a specific law per se.

Let's move on. Deal?


----------



## mes1952 (Dec 11, 2012)

Depending on where you live in Mexico (and how much $$$ you have) I think most go across the border in Guatemala and return after 3 days to renew the VISA. Guatemala is probably much cheaper to stay than Belize for those of us on a budget.


----------



## mickisue1 (Mar 10, 2012)

Do I remember that someone in another thread mentioned risks with the Guatemala route?

I recall somebody's wife had come back from visiting relatives, and some young people were not allowed back in for a renewed 180 days, a day or two after they had left.


----------



## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

mickisue1 said:


> Do I remember that someone in another thread mentioned risks with the Guatemala route?
> 
> I recall somebody's wife had come back from visiting relatives, and some young people were not allowed back in for a renewed 180 days, a day or two after they had left.


I remember that, the students were given a 30 day FMM and allowed back in, French students I think.

They can ask to see money and or credit cards when determining the length of stay when giving out FMMs according to the SEGOB INM website. Us seniors seem to not be questioned about these things in my experience.

I did see an INM officer give a group of students at Christmas 30 day FMMs being processed in front of me from the Imperial Valley, California speaking perfect Spanish to the INM officer.


----------



## Longford (May 25, 2012)

TundraGreen said:


> In summary, I have no problem with people who choose to be quasi-permanent tourists in Mexico. And, from everything I read, Mexican immigration also has no problem with them.


Fine, you have no problem with someone acting contrary to the Mexican immigration regulations. I believe Mexico does, however. The regulations are very clear regarding requirements to reside in Mexico. There should be no disagreement about that. My suggestion is that you ask the expats you know who are residing in Mexico on a tourist card to walk into an INM office and tell the agent in charge of the office that they are living in Mexico, residents in Mexico, not visiting as tourists, and that they want permission to continue to live in Mexico on the tourist card. And ask those persons to post the results of their request here on the forum. I'm interested in hearing what transpires. Thanks.


----------



## vantexan (Sep 4, 2011)

Longford said:


> Fine, you have no problem with someone acting contrary to the Mexican immigration regulations. I believe Mexico does, however. The regulations are very clear regarding requirements to reside in Mexico. There should be no disagreement about that. My suggestion is that you ask the expats you know who are residing in Mexico on a tourist card to walk into an INM office and tell the agent in charge of the office that they are living in Mexico, residents in Mexico, not visiting as tourists, and that they want permission to continue to live in Mexico on the tourist card. And ask those persons to post the results of their request here on the forum. I'm interested in hearing what transpires. Thanks.


I think I have the answer. No need to walk into an INM office because they have no intent to immigrate. They are tourists, and as such don't enjoy the benefits of permanent residents. They do however want to keep coming back to Mexico and Mexico wants them to keep coming back otherwise there would be droves of tourists turned away at the border and at airports. Heck, airlines would be required to see if their passports showed a required minimum time out of the country before issuing a ticket. Yeah, go into an INM office and try to run roughshod over them, play the ugly American. We all know how that'll turn out. But no need, we're tourists!


----------



## Marishka (Feb 1, 2009)

Writer David Eidell interviewed INM officials and asked about getting back-to-back 180-day FMM visas:


> Lic. Ismael Abarca INM and I had a wonderful one-hour chat on Thursday about the FMM. Actually I interviewed him, and he was gracious enough to telephone Morelia, and then Morelia telephoned the big enchilada in Mexico City to confirm (or deny) some of the claims that I have been gathering for the last several months about the FMM and it's regulations:
> 
> The FMM was not designed to be a vehicle to implement a whole bunch of restrictions on tourists. The FMM was designed to ELIMINATE five other immigration permits that had to be ordered and inventoried at INM offices.
> 
> ...


----------



## Longford (May 25, 2012)

Marishka said:


> Writer David Eidell interviewed INM officials and asked about getting back-to-back 180-day FMM visas:


1. Are you quoting material previously posted here on this website? If so, do you have the link to that discussion? If not, from which competing webiste are you lifting the information?

2. The source of the information you're quoting has proved to be unreliable in the past, from what I've observed.

3. Thanks in advance for providing the information I've asked for.


----------



## joaquinx (Jul 3, 2010)

Longford said:


> Fine, you have no problem with someone acting contrary to the Mexican immigration regulations. I believe Mexico does, however. The regulations are very clear regarding requirements to reside in Mexico. There should be no disagreement about that. My suggestion is that you ask the expats you know who are residing in Mexico on a tourist card to walk into an INM office and tell the agent in charge of the office that they are living in Mexico, residents in Mexico, not visiting as tourists, and that they want permission to continue to live in Mexico on the tourist card. And ask those persons to post the results of their request here on the forum. I'm interested in hearing what transpires. Thanks.


And this affects me how? Next, you'll want me to report speeders on the cuota. Jaywalkers are next.


----------



## chicois8 (Aug 8, 2009)

Longford said:


> 1. Are you quoting material previously posted here on this website? If so, do you have the link to that discussion? If not, from which competing webiste are you lifting the information?
> 
> 2. The source of the information you're quoting has proved to be unreliable in the past, from what I've observed.
> 
> 3. Thanks in advance for providing the information I've asked for.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chicago resident Longford,
This is the fourth time I've challenged you to site a Mexican Government website or official document that states one can not live in Mexico using back to back 180 day FMM"s...I am willing to bet you will ignore this challenge as usual...Show me the law!!!!!


----------



## vantexan (Sep 4, 2011)

Longford said:


> 1. Are you quoting material previously posted here on this website? If so, do you have the link to that discussion? If not, from which competing webiste are you lifting the information?
> 
> 2. The source of the information you're quoting has proved to be unreliable in the past, from what I've observed.
> 
> 3. Thanks in advance for providing the information I've asked for.


David Eidell is very respected in many circles. Of course if he doesn't write what you want to hear...


----------



## Longford (May 25, 2012)

joaquinx said:


> And this affects me how? Next, you'll want me to report speeders on the cuota. Jaywalkers are next.


How does _this_ affect you? Only you can answer that question. 

My response was directed to a comment from someone else or persons other than you. But the comment/question/suggestion I offered in the response would apply to anyone who might suggest that the most recently adjusted visa requirements an expat must comply with don't really apply to _all_ foreigners. Only _some_. 

Most of us are of the age where we understand the meanings given to words, such as _tourist_ and _resident_. The regulations for the issuance of the various visas, including the tourist card, seem clear to me and is published for all to read. And some of the visas and the tourist card contain in the body of the document restrictions and applications of the regulations. We know the difference between right and wrong. My opinion on this particular issue has been consistent, as has another ... that expats should demonstrate their respect for Mexico and Mexicans ... by obeying the regulations and/or laws of Mexico. 

Thanks.

eace:


----------



## chicois8 (Aug 8, 2009)

"or laws of Mexico. "

Just show me the law you keep referring too?


----------



## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

chicois8 said:


> "or laws of Mexico. "
> 
> Just show me the law you keep referring too?


There is no law or rule. I just checked the SEGOB INM website for 45 minutes and found nothing. Interesting you can get a FMM tourista card extended inside Mexico with the right reason.

Also we were on our yearly visit to Puerto Vallarta this New Years and I had applied for Residente Temporal in Nov. and a discussion at a New Years cocktail party with a dozen couples from Canada occurred about the new INM laws. It was stated by 1/2 dozen of the PV snowbirds they have condos in PV and like to spend 7, 8 or 9 months down there and go home only in the warmest summer months. 

They either were flying back to Canada at near the end of their 180 day FMM card of flying to TJ and handing it in at the INM building at the border, shopping in San Diego or not and getting another FMM at the TJ airport for decades some of them.

Also when I applied at the INM office here in San Luis Potosi for a "Permiso to marry a Mexican National" I had to fill out a "formato basico" a FM1 and give a copy of my US passport, birth certificate, my soon to be up 180 day FMM and show them all the originals. 

I was missing an apostille copy of my final divorce decree from California. The IMN officer said I can extend this FMM for you now. The INM officer said are you going back to California soon? I said yes. The wedding was planned less than 2 month from then. She said when you go back hand in this FMM and when you come back get another FMM. Make sure you come back at least 10 days before your wedding.


----------



## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Maybe we should refer to the "tourist card" as a "tourist/extended stay" card.


----------



## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

Isla Verde said:


> Maybe we should refer to the "tourist card" as a "tourist/extended stay" card.


A good idea. Longford seems to be completely hung up on semantics. He doesn´t seem to have any real actual experience with the INM down here as some posters here have.


----------



## Longford (May 25, 2012)

AlanMexicali said:


> A good idea. Longford seems to be completely hung up on semantics. He doesn´t seem to have any real actual experience with the INM down here as some posters here have.


----------



## Marishka (Feb 1, 2009)

Longford said:


> 1. Are you quoting material previously posted here on this website? If so, do you have the link to that discussion? If not, from which competing webiste are you lifting the information?
> 
> 2. The source of the information you're quoting has proved to be unreliable in the past, from what I've observed.
> 
> 3. Thanks in advance for providing the information I've asked for.


I got it from Rolly Brooks on Carol Schmidt's San Miguel board, which is now defunct, so I wouldn't worry about it competing with this incredibly active board! Rolly apparently disagrees with you about David Eidell's reliability:


> I have known David on the internet for years and know him to be a dedicated straight shooter. I have absolute confidence in his post. There is no limit to the number of FMMs per year.


This is David Eidell's profile from Amazon--he seems to have a long history with Mexico:


> Die-Hard Mexico and Central American adventurer. First trip occurred in 1964. Free lance writer with crabby opinions, strange friends, and even stranger habits. I have lived in Nine of the thirty two Mexican states for periods ranging from two months to two years. I am currently living next to the border while amassing time as a consultant to Baja off-road racers (wealthy Mexicans) and incorporating wild metal halide lighting on their roll bar!
> 
> I am politically and personally conservative, but Lorena Havens of The People's Guide to Mexico says that stripped of my conservative cloak I am just another People's Guide type of person.
> 
> ...


In any case, what David reported is totally in line with the reply Chapala’s INM migration services chief Juan Carlos Galvan gave on December 21, 2012 when Dale Palfry from The Guadalajara Reporter asked him about this issue:


> *If a person enters Mexico under a 180-day visitor (tourist) permit and wishes to return after it expires, is there a time restriction for obtaining another permit?*
> 
> No, you may return to Mexico immediately or whenever you like.


----------



## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Longford said:


>


IMO there are no trolls on this thread - just posters with strong opinions!


----------



## Longford (May 25, 2012)

Thanks for the reply, Marishka.

Moderators of this website have previously advised participants here, myself included, that i) attribution is to be given when intellectual property taken from another website is copied/pasted here and ii) posting material from or linking to other expat websites is not permitted. I've had material and references deleted when I did that in the past and that's why I asked your source. Material you posted was written well-before the current immigration regulations took effect if I'm recalling correctly and when first posted its accuracy was challenged because of other inaccuracies posted by the same person on a wide variety of topics pertaining to Mexico. Everyone, of course, if free to pick and choose from which opinions they find value. Some people even look for opinions which sustain opinions they already formed, whether or not correct. Such is life. As for the information regarding what may have been said in Chapala, your link doesn't provide the text nor context of the discussion or comments. Probably because it's a subscriber-only source.

The best source for the information is always the immigration officer standing in front of us when we enter the country. Other opinions, right or wrong ... don't matter. Maybe after the fact they do. But at that instant, they don't. That's why I earlier suggested persons residing in Mexico on a tourist card instead of properly applying for a visa intended for residents, as contrasted with the card for tourists, provide the immigration supervisor with the information that 1) they've been living in Mexico ... some for a long period of time, years ... on a tourist card and 2) they intend to continue to reside in Mexico, and 3) they want to do that on a tourist card and not one of the visas in other, residency categories as outlined in the current immigration regulations. They can look the immigration supervisor in the eyes, fully disclose they're residents and not tourists and hopefully report back to us on the response they receive.

Again, thanks for the response.


----------



## chicois8 (Aug 8, 2009)

By the way, the word turista or tourist does not appear on the form FMM. the word the official form uses is visitante,which I conclude translates to visitor, there are also 3 types of visitor on the FMM...


----------



## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

*Psychological Projection*



Longford said:


>


Maybe?


----------



## cscscs007 (Jan 8, 2011)

Mexican citizen's could care less, and neither do I. FMM, FMT, Permanant Resident, student, whomever. If you want to go to Mexico, do it. My fellow Mexican family welcomes you. Stay for 6 months, a year, however long you like, as long as you treat others with respect and follow the ways of life, it will be no problem at all.

Bickering over the legality or morality of this sounds like a bunch of Republican's trying to figure out who is buying dinner. Even a coin toss is debatable as the whether it is considered legal or not.


----------



## mickisue1 (Mar 10, 2012)

Longford said:


>


Seriously? You are calling Isla Verde a TROLL?

There is more than one person who needs to calm down.


----------



## PanamaJack (Apr 1, 2013)

Longford said:


> Thanks for the reply, Marishka.
> Again, thanks for the response.


Mr. Longford,
I have not been on the forum for much longer than a month, but I have had the opportunity to see that your comments can be cutting, sarcastic and even at times overbearing and belittling. Of course we are all adults on this site and banter back and forth makes for much better reading than mundane facts and figures. Nevertheless, I must say your talent in my mind is your keen ability to sidestep the issue. One poster says he requested you to show him the law.... and to my knowledge he is still waiting. 

My opinions aside, my question to you is the following: Why would you not accept the fact that a reporter asked a question of a member of the Mexican government who responded and said there was nothing wrong with a tourist/visitor/turista/vistante to return within hours of leaving the country? 

Furthermore, why would anyone subject themselves to walking into an immigration office in Mexico and tell the workers what their intention was about living in Mexico? Your point was absolutely pointless. Your request so ridiculous, it bordered on the absurd. 

If you can find a section of Mexican immigration law that states an individual cannot have an FMM card for 180 days, hand the card in, leave the country and then turn around within hours and request another of the same, then I will be the first to eat crow. 

Just because you do not agree does not make it illegal, immoral or against the law all it makes it is against your beliefs and I am sure from what I have seen there are a great many issues that are against your beliefs, but it does not make any of them wrong. 

And in closing, can I ask, and I hope I get a reply from you unlike the other person who has waited so long; How have you come by all of your vast knowledge of Mexican immigration law, Mexican customs, culture, traditions, cities, towns, beaches et al. I ask this question because it shows that you are located in Chicago and in my 35 plus years of living in and traveling around this beautiful country of Mexico, I have yet to locate a place named Chicago.


----------



## vantexan (Sep 4, 2011)

PanamaJack said:


> Mr. Longford,
> I have not been on the forum for much longer than a month, but I have had the opportunity to see that your comments can be cutting, sarcastic and even at times overbearing and belittling. Of course we are all adults on this site and banter back and forth makes for much better reading than mundane facts and figures. Nevertheless, I must say your talent in my mind is your keen ability to sidestep the issue. One poster says he requested you to show him the law.... and to my knowledge he is still waiting.
> 
> My opinions aside, my question to you is the following: Why would you not accept the fact that a reporter asked a question of a member of the Mexican government who responded and said there was nothing wrong with a tourist/visitor/turista/vistante to return within hours of leaving the country?
> ...


In my opinion, and I may be wrong, but having read Mexico forums for close to 15 years I believe that there are some that simply want Mexico to themselves. They want the quaint Mexico, colonial buildings, cobblestone streets, the sombrero wearing peasant leading a donkey bearing firewood. They are willing to share it with other foreigners who they deem worthy, and financial requirements provide a convenient dividing line. The last thing they want is a bunch of loud mouthed, uncouth, unsophisticated working class Americans running around ruining the illusion. Just a theory, YMMV.


----------



## FHBOY (Jun 15, 2010)

I would not be surprised if the Mods take a knife to this thread, as it is developing. 

Longford and I do not agree, but this site does not countenance personal attacks, no matter how well stated and backed.

I would suggest we have heard from a Mexican IMN official, we have heard interpretations of the law, morality of the stances. I am not saying that we should end here, rather we should go back to the civility issues so prevalent on the Forum.


----------



## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

FHBOY said:


> . . . I am not saying that we should end here, rather we should go back to the civility issues so prevalent on the Forum.


I heartily back your recommendation.


----------



## vantexan (Sep 4, 2011)

FHBOY said:


> I would not be surprised if the Mods take a knife to this thread, as it is developing.
> 
> Longford and I do not agree, but this site does not countenance personal attacks, no matter how well stated and backed.
> 
> I would suggest we have heard from a Mexican IMN official, we have heard interpretations of the law, morality of the stances. I am not saying that we should end here, rather we should go back to the civility issues so prevalent on the Forum.


I think you are right, but I find it odd when some start saying our actions are morally repugnant and we're bottom feeders that the brakes aren't put on right then. We are, after all, breaking the law and not showing respect to Mexico and it's citizens. So I guess that's allowed but not any retorts, no matter how mildly stated.


----------



## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

We have heard from both sides on this issue. It is time to move on. It does not appear likely that this thread will die a natural death, so I am closing it.


----------

