# If the U.S. Hadn't...



## vantexan (Sep 4, 2011)

...won the Mexican War, and assuming there wouldn't have been subsequent wars, then what is now the border would be central Mexico and where many of you live would be considered southern Mexico. Just food for thought. Seems sometimes that border towns are given short shrift here but having traveled a ways into central Mexico and having visited most of the larger and some smaller border towns from AZ to TX I feel that Mexico truly does start at it's northern border and it's a whole other world than the U.S.. 

If someone reading this is considering Mexico but is leery of living in an area that requires Spanish to fully appreciate it, or is concerned about the cost of traveling to and from the States to visit family, or the cost of border runs because you don't qualify for residency, or will miss certain stores or conveniences not found in Mexico, or quite a few other reasons, consider the American side of the Mexican border. McAllen has 2 Barnes & Nobels plus everything else, Brownsville has a terrific zoo and South Padre Island, El Paso is a complete city with a beautiful university and a moderate climate, Del Rio is a great small city with a huge, well stocked reservoir nearby, Nogales is close to Tucson and is very affordable. My knowledge of points west of there is only what I've read but have seen good things on the Mexican side about Mexicali, Tecate, and just to the south of Tijuana. All close enough for American amenities. These areas have great food, great culture, quick access to Mexico for affordable shopping and dining and low cost medicine. 

The U.S. border with Mexico is a unique part of the United States that should be experienced by anyone interested in living in Mexico. You might find it a good starting point, a good transition towards a move to Mexico or elsewhere in Latin America. Or even exactly what you're looking for.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Sorry no mater how many people speak Spanish or how many are of Mexican descent or Mexicans, Texas or Arizona ae a poor ersatz for Mexico. They are Americans like it or not and they would turn me off Mexico rather than prepare me for it.


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## vantexan (Sep 4, 2011)

citlali said:


> Sorry no mater how many people speak Spanish or how many are of Mexican descent or Mexicans, Texas or Arizona ae a poor ersatz for Mexico. They are Americans like it or not and they would turn me off Mexico rather than prepare me for it.


But as often pointed out here many don't meet Mexico's new income requirements. Living on the border in many places would allow access to lower priced goods and services such as meds, dental work, haircuts, etc. I was surprised on the American side of Nogales how cheap the produce was in a supermarket. Excellent selection and very high quality. And people were polite, friendly, and helpful. It's been pointed out that many try Mexico and return to their home country disappointed. It's not for everyone. But an Americanized, English speaking version with high speed Internet and cable tv might be. It's a good way to try it out, maybe make some trips into the interior to check things out.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

I´ve been going to TJ and Mexicali for over 3 decades and didn´t find but a handful of locals speaking any English. Maybe on the Rio Grande more do because they lived "on the other side" and picked up some English. On the California border on the Mexican side few return form the US except the deported ones and they seem to be mainly located in TJ.

As far a staying at resort hotels or large clubs and resturants there I don´t know but as far as shopping I didn´t find English speaking people.

As far as not being a good representive of Mexico, yes it is 95% similar in what I see in Central Mexico and Central West Mexico. Not the same as the Yucatán Peninsula or Veracruz but mainly because of the architecture [lamina pitched roofs etc.] and the Mayan influence in the Yucatán área.

Definately not as many indigenous people living on the border but they are a minority in Central Mexico also except in a few regions that I have noticed. There are different indigenous people living in different parts around in scattered áreas I have been to. San Luis Potosi in La Huateca región is an example.

Mexico is diverse and NO one región is representative of the REAL Mexico some think is political correct to state. Maybe some have been watching the old movies too long.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

I always enjoy these speculations on what might have been absent some territorial warfare from time to time.

There was a nascent political movement in the U.S. prior to their Civil War to acquire Mexico as a colony as the Mexican nation had tremendous natural resources including several all-year, warm water ports which U.S. imperialists at the time desired to administer as, in their way of thinking as expressed by them in general, the economic potential of the Mexican territory was being wasted by "...mismanagement by inept Spaniards, Indians and Africans...." That imperialistic notion taking hold in the 1850s was thwarted by the Civil War in the U.S. so nothing ever came of this, at one time, quite serious movement in the U.S. to invade and colonize Mexico.

Also, during approximately the same time period but a decade later after the southern states in the U.S. had seceded from the unión and formed the Confederate States of America, there was a political movement among the landed gentry (and slaveholders) in The Yucatán, who then despised Mexico and wanted nothing to do with it, to join the U.S. Confederacy as another state with the same political sovereignty as the other confederate states at that time. Of course, that never came about but this was a serious political movement for a time in a territory the political leaders of which in the 19th Century, never considered themselves a part of Mexico - a political entity with which they had no overland contact and deeply despised.

As long as we are having fun with this "might-have-been" business and speaking of the U.S. Confederacy; my home state of Alabama was in turmoil when the decisión was made in Montgomery to join the Confederacy. Slave owners were mostly concentrated in the southern part of the state which was an área where fecund coastal flatlands favored plantation-style agriculture. However, Alabama is both a part of the Gulf Coastal Plain and the Appilachian foothills which is not an área conducive to the establishment of large agricultural estates so these hillbillies in Appilachia, an área of small, marginal famers with no slaves nor African natives of any kind in those days, were not pleased to undertake war for the sake of South Alabama plantation owners and there were important political movements in these poverty stricken áreas to resist the formation of the Confederacy. Out of that political movement came the formation of Alabama counties, of which there were 67, that seceded from the state and became members of the Union in conflict with the Confederacy. As an example, Winston County seceded from the state of Alabama and declared itself the "Free State of Winston" joining the Unión in opposition to the Confederacy.

None of this is important today but since the OP declared that the climate in El Paso is moderate and they have great food there, it seemed to me to be open season on posting anything at all.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Hound Dog said:


> …
> None of this is important today but since the OP declared that the climate in El Paso is moderate and they have great food there, it seemed to me to be open season on posting anything at all.


In this thread we have someone talking about the moderate climate in El Paso. In another thread, someone mentioned that Ciudad Juarez is 100°F in the summer and has snow in the winter. 

There must be a pretty drastic transition in the middle of the Bridge of the Americas.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

TundraGreen said:


> In this thread we have someone talking about the moderate climate in El Paso. In another thread, someone mentioned that Ciudad Juarez is 100°F in the summer and has snow in the winter.
> 
> There must be a pretty drastic transition in the middle of the Bridge of the Americas.


An old buddy of mine in San Diego moved back to El Paso, his family is still there, and he said in the summer it can get to 105 F and in the winter the wáter freezes on the streets at night sometimes.

This is not moderate compared to Central Mexico on the plateau which covers a very large área.

I doubt very much we will ever move off of the Central Mexico plateau for this reason alone.

I find San Diego even more palatable in Dec. and Jan. especially at night though weather wise. Here it is cold at night sometimes.


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

citlali said:


> Sorry no mater how many people speak Spanish or how many are of Mexican descent or Mexicans, Texas or Arizona ae a poor ersatz for Mexico. They are Americans like it or not and they would turn me off Mexico rather than prepare me for it.


I agree with you and have to disagree with Vantexan's comment
Border towns are not as described, and living there just to pass to Mexican side and have cheaper haircuts and stuff...? And then what? go back to civilization?
Also, border towns are not known to be cultural. Sorry. Then again, It depends on how much culture one's have


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## vantexan (Sep 4, 2011)

Ever eaten tlapeno soup? Extremely delicious, can find it in numerous family owned eateries in the Rio Grande Valley. Interesting thing about areas on the border that attract tourists(talking the American side here, where the overwhelming majority speak both English and Spanish) is that restaurants are extremely competitive and thus you have surprisingly good Mexican food. Tex-Mex too, of course, and in southern New Mexico they have green chile cuisine that's addictive.

Yes, you can find poverty, just as you can in Mexico. But NAFTA has been very good to the border, and it has developed quite a bit since the 90's. I'm not going to say that anywhere on the border has central Mexico's climate, nor it's colonial atmosphere, nor it's beaches. I will say that most of the border's population came from the interior of Mexico in the last 3 generations seeking work, and most reflect that in their politeness and humility. It isn't all cartels and homeboys.

The Rio Grande Valley puts Mobile, AL to shame in it's summer heat and humidity, but for a few months it has a near perfect winter. And notice I said moderate about El Paso, not mild. It's all relative. You'd be more comfortable in El Paso's dry 105 than in Alabama's 95 steam bath. And the nights cool off. Try that in much of the southeast in the summer. And compared to the hammering the north gets in the winter, El Paso is pleasantly mild then. 

What you get with the border is a region very different than the rest of the U.S. with it's own unique culture/s. It is an area that poor retirees on Social Security can get by ok, taking advantage of lower costs next door. It is an area where those attracted to Mexico but don't yet have an independent income can live and find work(can't say that about Mexico for most). 

Those looking for attractive places to live should consider McAllen, TX, El Paso; Las Cruces, NM; Sierra Vista, AZ. Looking for quirky? Check out Bisbee, AZ or Columbus, NM. There are perfectly fine places to live up and down the border where one can get by speaking only English and yet the atmosphere definitely isn't Kansas City or Pittsburgh or wherever. Again, a good place to start for anyone considering Mexico but too poor or not as intrepid as some.


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## vantexan (Sep 4, 2011)

GARYJ65 said:


> I agree with you and have to disagree with Vantexan's comment
> Border towns are not as described, and living there just to pass to Mexican side and have cheaper haircuts and stuff...? And then what? go back to civilization?
> Also, border towns are not known to be cultural. Sorry. Then again, It depends on how much culture one's have


When I was a courier in McAllen I was offered tamales at just about every home I delivered to before Christmas. I'm saying it's a different CULTURE than much of the U.S., not talking about a night at the opera. And I think Americans can do well living on the Mexican side but if needing work or can't speak Spanish or just a bit timid the American side might be a better fit. Why put a racist spin on a very positive view of border life?


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

I know what you mean, VanTexan. After all, that part of Texas, in fact, all of Texas, was Mexico until the U.S. stole it for some reason obscured by time. What were those people thinking to steal Texas and not Baja California and Quintana Roo? 

We South Alabamians know that Northwest Florida from the Apalachicola River to Mobile Bay should have been part of the state of Alabama and was only granted to Florida because, when Florida was admitted to the unión, the only decent and inhabitable town (and largest city) in that territory in those days, was Pensacola and the congress wanted the new state to have at least one decent town in which people could live in that vast swampland which, before the advent of air conditioning, was considered unihabitable by any people except the Seminole Indians who had become acclimated over the centuries to heat, humidity, poisonous snakes, spiders , scorpions. stinging jellyfish, wasps and hornets.

In fact, we South Alabamians refer to Northwest Florida as "L.A." (for Lower Alabama) and, while the state of Florida retains sovereignty over that land of splendid beaches, knobby stunted pine trees and 3.5% beer, we Alabamians actually take over the place in the summer and turn the whole beachfront territory there into one huge Alabama-style honkeytonk. We do, however, bring our own 5.0% Alabama beer with us in huge coolers in the back seat rather that drink that Florida 3.5% "near-beer".

By the way, Vantexan; it is Saturday night and I now must leave to buy tamales as Saturday night is Tamal Night in San Cristóbal de Las Casas where tamales are made wrapped in banana leaves with "asafran" or "mole" and not only far superior to those corn based tamales on the Texas/Mexico border but so inexpensive that moving to McAllen to get a free tamal seems unnecessary. Thanks, anyway.


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

vantexan said:


> When I was a courier in McAllen I was offered tamales at just about every home I delivered to before Christmas. I'm saying it's a different CULTURE than much of the U.S., not talking about a night at the opera. And I think Americans can do well living on the Mexican side but if needing work or can't speak Spanish or just a bit timid the American side might be a better fit. Why put a racist spin on a very positive view of border life?


That remark about racist spin does not fly here
we could talk about racism if you want to


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## vantexan (Sep 4, 2011)

GARYJ65 said:


> That remark about racist spin does not fly here
> we could talk about racism if you want to


I experienced racism on the border myself but that wasn't the gist of what I was saying. I may have been wrong, but you seemed to imply I was being racist with suggesting people live in "civilization" on the American side. If wrong I apologize but certainly not my intent.


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## vantexan (Sep 4, 2011)

Hound Dog said:


> I know what you mean, VanTexan. After all, that part of Texas, in fact, all of Texas, was Mexico until the U.S. stole it for some reason obscured by time. What were those people thinking to steal Texas and not Baja California and Quintana Roo?
> 
> We South Alabamians know that Northwest Florida from the Apalachicola River to Mobile Bay should have been part of the state of Alabama and was only granted to Florida because, when Florida was admitted to the unión, the only decent and inhabitable town (and largest city) in that territory in those days, was Pensacola and the congress wanted the new state to have at least one decent town in which people could live in that vast swampland which, before the advent of air conditioning, was considered unihabitable by any people except the Seminole Indians who had become acclimated over the centuries to heat, humidity, poisonous snakes, spiders , scorpions. stinging jellyfish, wasps and hornets.
> 
> ...


Well Hound Dog having family in Alabama and born and raised in Florida and having both Cherokee and Creek ancestry I know a bit about the region myself. "Seminole" is a Creek Indian word meaning "runaway". It refers to the Battle of Horseshoe Bend where Andrew Jackson smashed the Red Stick(Baton Rouge)Creek Indian forces. The survivors "ran away" to Florida where they mixed with local Indian tribes and runaway slaves to form the Seminole Nation. Osceola himself was the half white son of a Scottish trader in Alabama who fled with his Creek mother to Florida. It was how his mother was done plus the capture by slavers of his black wife that fueled his anger and lead to the First Seminole War. Interesting but very important side note is a number of Black Seminoles were used as Army Indian Scouts to track Indians along the border and frontier. Several of them earned the Congressional Medal of Honor and are buried in Brackettville near Del Rio. But I digress.

Isla Verde mentioned to someone recently that many try Mexico and go home. Got me thinking and thus this post. After all, if we don't qualify for residency and we want decent infrastructure then isn't the border area the next best thing? Or if one is younger, doesn't have independent income but wants a somewhat Mexican lifestyle then isn't the border where it's at for jobs? You can keep Destin and the ******* Riviera. I'll take South Padre or Rosarito Beach every time. And those must be very good tamales down there but I've had excellent homemade ones and they were delicious. Good enough for this uncultured mestizo.


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## regwill (Jul 2, 2013)

Hound Dog , the U.S. did not steal Texas from Mexico , Texas was a independent republic for nine years , then joined or was annexed to the U.S. depending on your viewpoint .


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

regwill said:


> Hound Dog , the U.S. did not steal Texas from Mexico , Texas was a independent republic for nine years , then joined or was annexed to the U.S. depending on your viewpoint .


Exactly!
It all depends on points of view

There are always 2 sides of the story


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

GARYJ65 said:


> I agree with you and have to disagree with Vantexan's comment
> Border towns are not as described, and living there just to pass to Mexican side and have cheaper haircuts and stuff...? And then what? go back to civilization?
> Also, border towns are not known to be cultural. Sorry. Then again, It depends on how much culture one's have


I can see why many border city residents in Mexico, raised there at least, have a bad impression of people from Mexico City. Most have an opinon of the border área but have never spent any time there and Mexican TV doesn´t give them any time on TV. At least on the Mexican - California border in my experience. 


Are you really calling San Diego a hick town or just Texas border towns? Or just venting at Vantexan? His original post does mention the Mexico - Calif. border cities in a good light.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

vantexan said:


> ...
> 
> If someone reading this is considering Mexico but is leery of living in an area that requires Spanish to fully appreciate it, or is concerned about the cost of traveling to and from the States to visit family, or the cost of border runs because you don't qualify for residency, or will miss certain stores or conveniences not found in Mexico, or quite a few other reasons, consider the American side of the Mexican border. McAllen has 2 Barnes & Nobels plus everything else, Brownsville has a terrific zoo and South Padre Island, El Paso is a complete city with a beautiful university and a moderate climate, Del Rio is a great small city with a huge, well stocked reservoir nearby, Nogales is close to Tucson and is very affordable. My knowledge of points west of there is only what I've read but have seen good things on the Mexican side about Mexicali, Tecate, and just to the south of Tijuana. All close enough for American amenities. These areas have great food, great culture, quick access to Mexico for affordable shopping and dining and low cost medicine.
> 
> The U.S. border with Mexico is a unique part of the United States that should be experienced by anyone interested in living in Mexico. You might find it a good starting point, a good transition towards a move to Mexico or elsewhere in Latin America. Or even exactly what you're looking for.


Nice overview of life on the border and no matter what a couple people living south say, the border is a unique Mexican experince on both sides if you want it to be and hang around Mexicans on both sides and I have lived there for over 3 decades and know what I am talking about. If some think it is 100% Americanized Mexican immigrants there , so what. They don´t know that for sure as they only have an opinión about it, nothing more.

As I said above the Mexico - Calif. border cities in Mexico are about 95% the same as all the places I stay at in Mexico. Only the favorite local food is better on the border and not laced with grease and oil. The tamal masa is not folded in lard and are dry and large and only 11 pesos at OXXO. :boxing: :violin:


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

AlanMexicali said:


> I can see why many border city residents in Mexico, raised there at least, have a bad impression of people from Mexico City. Most have an opinon of the border área but have never spent any time there and Mexican TV doesn´t give them any time on TV. At least on the Mexican - California border in my experience.
> 
> 
> Are you really calling San Diego a hick town or just Texas border towns? Or just venting at Vantexan? His original post does mention the Mexico - Calif. border cities in a good light.


I know that Chilangos are not loved by everyone, they may think and call us whatever they want, at the end they have to call us "BOSS"  We don't care, I guess it is just about the same with some Americans
I know many border towns both in Mexico and the US, of course San Diego is not a one stop sign hillbilly town, but most are not the nicest towns in both Countries.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

[_QUOTE=regwill;3357297]Hound Dog , the U.S. did not steal Texas from Mexico , Texas was a independent republic for nine years , then joined or was annexed to the U.S. depending on your viewpoint .[/QUOTE]_

Yeah, I know what you mean. Alabama was a member of the Confederate States of America for a few years before the unión army burned and looted local communities and murdered countless people in order to re-annex that and other confederate states to the unión but, as you say, it all depends on your point of view.

Chiapas, where I live now, was a part of the Guatemala Federation which included much of Central America until, after Mexican independence, a few of the landed gentry who were allowed to vote in the early to mid 19th Century (as opposed to the majority indigenous population), voted to secede from Guatemala and join the new Mexican unión to protect their "labor intensive" haciendas. Democracy in action. It all just depends on your point of view.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

_


GARYJ65 said:



I know that Chilangos are not loved by everyone, they may think and call us whatever they want, at the end they have to call us "BOSS"  We don't care, I guess it is just about the same with some Americans
I know many border towns both in Mexico and the US, of course San Diego is not a one stop sign hillbilly town, but most are not the nicest towns in both Countries.

Click to expand...

_I agree, Gary, having lived and worked in San Diego for some time in the 1970s and 80s. San Diego is not a "_one stop sign hillbilly town_", it is a "_many stop signs hillbilly town". _


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## regwill (Jul 2, 2013)

Hound Dog said:


> [_QUOTE=regwill;3357297]Hound Dog , the U.S. did not steal Texas from Mexico , Texas was a independent republic for nine years , then joined or was annexed to the U.S. depending on your viewpoint ._




Yeah, I know what you mean. Alabama was a member of the Confederate States of America for a few years before the unión army burned and looted local communities and murdered countless people in order to re-annex that and other confederate states to the unión but, as you say, it all depends on your point of view.

Chiapas, where I live now, was a part of the Guatemala Federation which included much of Central America until, after Mexican independence, a few of the landed gentry who were allowed to vote in the early to mid 19th Century (as opposed to the majority indigenous population), voted to secede from Guatemala and join the new Mexican unión to protect their "labor intensive" haciendas. Democracy in action. It all just depends on your point of view.[/QUOTE]

So was the Chiapas region of Mexico stolen from Guatemala , because it seems that what happened in Chiapas was a little similar to what happened in Texas .


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## emilybcruz (Oct 29, 2013)

GARYJ65 said:


> border towns are not known to be cultural


Just out of curiosity... How much time have you spent in border towns Gary? 

And I mean actual time experiencing the local culture. Not a day or two while passing through to go South to somewhere you deem more "cultural."


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

emilybcruz said:


> Just out of curiosity... How much time have you spent in border towns Gary?
> 
> And I mean actual time experiencing the local culture. Not a day or two while passing through to go South to somewhere you deem more "cultural."


I suppose it all depends on what he means by "cultural".


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## emilybcruz (Oct 29, 2013)

I would like to think we all know what *culture* means but hell, here's the Mirriam-Webster definition... just in case we aren't on the same page? 



cul·ture _noun_ \ˈkəl-chər\ 

: the beliefs, customs, arts, etc., of a particular society, group, place, or time

: a particular society that has its own beliefs, ways of life, art, etc.

: a way of thinking, behaving, or working that exists in a place or organization (such as a business)


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

emilybcruz said:


> I would like to think we all know what *culture* means but hell, here's the Mirriam-Webster definition... just in case we aren't on the same page?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"Culture" also refers to what may be thought of as "high culture": the fine arts; classical music; "good" films, not just the latest Hollywood blockbusters; venues for lectures on cultural and historical topics; museums, and so on.


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## emilybcruz (Oct 29, 2013)

Isla Verde said:


> "Culture" also refers to what may be thought of as "high culture": the fine arts; classical music; "good" films, not just the latest Hollywood blockbusters; venues for lectures on cultural and historical topics; museums, and so on.


Right, all of which would fall under _the arts_. I'm pretty sure I know what culture he was referring to. No confusion here. I will go ahead and wait for his response.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

emilybcruz said:


> Right, all of which would fall under _the arts_. I'm pretty sure I know what culture he was referring to. No confusion here. I will go ahead and wait for his response.


I'm curious to see what his response will be too.


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## Bobbyb (Mar 9, 2014)

vantexan: Border towns are the worst areas in either country. They bring out the worst in people. Too many illegal transactions: Smuggling people, goods and drugs as well as cash. Thievery and other crimes are common. Very unsafe without even mentioning cartels. Dirty, dishonest. Chueco. I would sooner live in East LA!!!!!!


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## emilybcruz (Oct 29, 2013)

Before everyone makes generalizations about border towns, can you please head up your comments with your personal experience in a border town including the specific cities you have spent time in.


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## TooColdTooOften (Feb 27, 2014)

regwill said:


> Hound Dog , the U.S. did not steal Texas from Mexico , Texas was a independent republic for nine years , then joined or was annexed to the U.S. depending on your viewpoint .


Yeeaaah, I dunno. That sounds kind of like "California, was not stolen. It started as a rebellion in the north (which was probably true, although instigated by the U.S.), and then they wanted statehood, or it was just, uhm, annexed." 

For the sake of the discussion, let's just forget the rest of the SW. 

As I understand the word "theft," most of the U.S. was stolen from one indigenous population or another, but whatever. That's another topic, I guess. With regard to the Mexican/American border though: without the contentious issues of slavery, and the odd idea of "manifest destiny" (and perhaps gold?) all playing into the political realities of the time, I wonder what the southern border would look like today. My hunch is it would look different.


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## emilybcruz (Oct 29, 2013)

Bobbyb said:


> vantexan: Border towns are the worst areas in either country. They bring out the worst in people. Too many illegal transactions: Smuggling people, goods and drugs as well as cash. Thievery and other crimes are common. Very unsafe without even mentioning cartels. Dirty, dishonest. Chueco. I would sooner live in East LA!!!!!!


Actually El Paso, the city bordering Juarez, was recently ranked the safest large city in the US (population over 500k)* for the 4th year in a row*. (Study was completed by CQ Press, a independent research firm.) 

You may want to check your facts before you throw out such offensive labels. Dirty, dishonest and chueco may describe the cartels or criminals, but they do not describe the borderland, it's people or it's culture. Of course there is more crime on the border, it is the gateway between the North and South. 

Let's say we have some marijuana being grown in the mountains of Sinaloa, it gets transported on a route through Nogales and ends up being smoked by a teenager in Las Vegas. What do you take away from that scenario? That Nogales is dirty, chueco and unsafe? What do you have to say about Sinaloa and Nevada?

Don't shoot the middle man.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

emilybcruz said:


> You may want to check your facts before you throw out such offensive labels. Dirty, dishonest and chueco may describe the cartels or criminals, but they do not describe the borderland, it's people or it's culture. Of course there is more crime on the border, it is the gateway between the North and South.


Haven't you just proved Bobbyb's comment with this portion of your post? By the way, I've never been farther north in Mexico than Zacatecas, so I can't offer any comments about what it's like to live on the border.


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

emilybcruz said:


> Just out of curiosity... How much time have you spent in border towns Gary?
> 
> And I mean actual time experiencing the local culture. Not a day or two while passing through to go South to somewhere you deem more "cultural."


Have not lived there, if that is what you mean, but in any case, those are not cultural points, not like NY City, Mexico City, etc.

There are not many Universities, good ones I mean, people are not the most educated ones of both Countries there

I really don't want to be confrontational,it is not a matter of opinions, but a matter of facts


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

Isla Verde said:


> "Culture" also refers to what may be thought of as "high culture": the fine arts; classical music; "good" films, not just the latest Hollywood blockbusters; venues for lectures on cultural and historical topics; museums, and so on.


By culture I mean fine arts, Universities, investigation, museums, theaters, expositions, literature, music, etc.


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## vantexan (Sep 4, 2011)

Bobbyb said:


> vantexan: Border towns are the worst areas in either country. They bring out the worst in people. Too many illegal transactions: Smuggling people, goods and drugs as well as cash. Thievery and other crimes are common. Very unsafe without even mentioning cartels. Dirty, dishonest. Chueco. I would sooner live in East LA!!!!!!


As Emily pointed out El Paso consistently ranks as one of the safest big cities in the U.S.. I looked up stats for Nogales, AZ on City Data. It's overall crime rate is well below the national average, but it does have high rates for theft and burglary. As I recall that's very similar to Mexico in many respects. And it has a nice setting, nice people, decent shopping(super Walmart, multiplex) and not far from Tucson. I've seen much worse places far from the border in the U.S.. And if you weren't aware something like 100,000 "Winter Texans" from mostly the Midwest and Canada spend their winters in the Rio Grande Valley every year. Quite a few do the same in Yuma, AZ and elsewhere. Do you really think they're putting up with the worst areas of the country just for the warmth?

Mexico has made residency out of reach for many. Our choices are now limited to border runs or seeking out a viable alternative. For myself it looks like I'll be spending winters somewhere in Mexico, the rest of the year in Kansas. Primarily because it's cheaper in southern Mexico. But having been to most of the border there are several places I'd much prefer to Overland Park, KS(and it's nice) to live in fulltime.


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## vantexan (Sep 4, 2011)

GARYJ65 said:


> By culture I mean fine arts, Universities, investigation, museums, theaters, expositions, literature, music, etc.


I'll bet that Mexico isn't much different in that regard from the U.S. in that to support the fine arts you need a large city with a certain amount of wealth. In that regard you're much more likely to find such things in smaller cities in the U.S. than in Mexico. Strictly from a wealth standpoint. I was in Tyler, TX for four years, pop. 100,000, which supported a symphony orchestra and one of the country's top 50 zoos. Tyler is the rose growing capital of the U.S. and has a huge festival centered around roses as well as one around azaleas. Pretty much a full docket of events year'round due to the old oil wealth there. And 100 miles from Dallas. Not on the border, no, but I'm betting there are many more examples of fine arts centers in the U.S. in smaller cities due to wealth. Not that Mexico doesn't have fine arts in smaller venues, but usually they're supported by the wealthy from the major cities. It would be fair to say that most smaller places that attract expats in Mexico aren't due to their fine arts offerings(outside of San Miguel and Guanajuato) but rather to their atmosphere, physical setting, climate, and cost of living(which would apply to those two also). So it's a bit unfair to say the border area isn't worthwhile due to a lack of "culture" since that would apply to much of both the U.S. and Mexico.


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## Bobbyb (Mar 9, 2014)

I go through Nogales,mx at least 5 times a year. I have Mexican friends that live there. We have been traveling and living in Mexico for over 20 years. I have only been robbed once and yes it was in Nogales, Sonora. When I said border towns I was not referring to the US side. My error. Nogales, Juarez and the rest are all bad places for anyone to live. You sure won't find what most of us think of when it comes to culture in these towns. The southern border with Mexico and Guatemala is similar. Have you ever been to Tapachula? Another hell hole. Mexico is a popular destination for something like a million foreigners. There are hundreds of great spots. Border towns are not amongst these great spots!


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## vantexan (Sep 4, 2011)

Bobbyb said:


> I go through Nogales,mx at least 5 times a year. I have Mexican friends that live there. We have been traveling and living in Mexico for over 20 years. I have only been robbed once and yes it was in Nogales, Sonora. When I said border towns I was not referring to the US side. My error. Nogales, Juarez and the rest are all bad places for anyone to live. You sure won't find what most of us think of when it comes to culture in these towns. The southern border with Mexico and Guatemala is similar. Have you ever been to Tapachula? Another hell hole. Mexico is a popular destination for something like a million foreigners. There are hundreds of great spots. Border towns are not amongst these great spots!


But I was talking primarily about the American side where non-Spanish speakers who don't qualify for residency can thrive. And not all on the Mexican side meet your standard. I've read numerous times that Tecate is very nice and possibly the only city on the Mexican side comparable to many nice towns in the interior. You seem to make assumptions about the entire border, American and Mexican, based on limited experience.


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## emilybcruz (Oct 29, 2013)

Isla Verde said:


> Haven't you just proved Bobbyb's comment with this portion of your post? By the way, I've never been farther north in Mexico than Zacatecas, so I can't offer any comments about what it's like to live on the border.


I don't see how I have. He's labeling an entire region of Mexico based on some criminals who pass through that region, not based on the people who actually live there. Listen, I don't know much about DF but I have 2 different friends whose husbands were murdered there on separate occasions while waiting for their US Visas, have heard countless complaints about how crowded parts of it are, how horrible the pollution is, how likely it is that you will get car jacked, etc, etc, etc. I've _heard _those things. They do not define my opinion of the entire city, nor would I be so ignorant to spout off comments like "Mexico City is dirty and full of car-jacking murderers." Which is kind of how I feel about Bobby's comment's towards border cities. 

As with any city in the world, there is good and bad. But niether the good nor the bad fully define those cities. And yes, it irks me that someone could be so disrespectful to make such labels of a place they have personally never spent any real time in other than passing through.


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## emilybcruz (Oct 29, 2013)

I cannot speak for other border towns because *I have only passed through them*, but I will say a few things about Juarez that you probably don't know if you've just driven down the 45 on your way South.

We have several universities, Universidad Autónoma de Ciudad Juárez, Instituto Tecnológico de Ciudad Juárez, Universidad Autónoma de Durango, Instituto Tecnológico de Monterrey... As for people less educated than those in other parts of MX, I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion, but if it is true, it may be a result of NAFTA and the thousands of factories that are along the border which drew in the less educated from all over the country in search of job opportunities. I'm not trying to offend here, my husband works in a maquila at the bottom of the totem pole, I'm just reaching in my attempt to understand where you are coming from. I just did a little googling though and Juarez does have a literacy rate in line with the rest of Mexico at around 97%

There are several museums, Museo de la Revolución en la Frontera, INBA Museum (modern art), La Rodadora (which is an amazing children's museum with tons of hands on science exhibits), the Chamizal Archaeological Museum, San Agustín Regional Museum which I haven't been to yet. Actually there are a few more I haven't had a chance to check out. I am positive that there are more such things in a city like DF but as vantexan mentioned, that's a given when comparing the average city to a country's capital.

We have the Juarez Symphony Orchestra, an Olympic stadium and several other stadiums, 2 or 3 performing arts theaters, plenty of fine dining, theaters that show foreign films regularly, at least 4 major newspapers, a large convention center with regular expos from all over the country, an international airport... 

What else was it that you were looking for?


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

emilybcruz said:


> I don't see how I have. He's labeling an entire region of Mexico based on some criminals who pass through that region, not based on the people who actually live there. Listen, I don't know much about DF but I have 2 different friends whose husbands were murdered there on separate occasions while waiting for their US Visas, have heard countless complaints about how crowded parts of it are, how horrible the pollution is, how likely it is that you will get car jacked, etc, etc, etc. I've _heard _those things. They do not define my opinion of the entire city, nor would I be so ignorant to spout off comments like "Mexico City is dirty and full of car-jacking murderers." Which is kind of how I feel about Bobby's comment's towards border cities.
> 
> As with any city in the world, there is good and bad. But niether the good nor the bad fully define those cities. And yes, it irks me that someone could be so disrespectful to make such labels of a place they have personally never spent any real time in other than passing through.


I am with you on this. I don't understand why people would think that passing through a place occasionally tells them much about what it is like to live there. I spent 3 months in Queretaro once, but even that was not long enough that I feel like I know what it would be like to live there.

As you said, every place has its good points and bad points. And which are which is not something all people would agree upon. People's priorities differ.


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## emilybcruz (Oct 29, 2013)

vantexan said:


> But I was talking primarily about the American side where non-Spanish speakers who don't qualify for residency can thrive.


And yes, that was your original point wasn't it. :laugh:

I agree. Sorry to get off topic.


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

emilybcruz said:


> I cannot speak for other border towns because I have only passed through them, but I will say a few things about Juarez that you probably don't know if you've just driven down the 45 on your way South. We have several universities, Universidad Autónoma de Ciudad Juárez, Instituto Tecnológico de Ciudad Juárez, Universidad Autónoma de Durango, Instituto Tecnológico de Monterrey... As for people less educated than those in other parts of MX, I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion, but if it is true, it may be a result of NAFTA and the thousands of factories that are along the border which drew in the less educated from all over the country in search of job opportunities. I'm not trying to offend here, my husband works in a maquila at the bottom of the totem pole, I'm just reaching in my attempt to understand where you are coming from. I just did a little googling though and Juarez does have a literacy rate in line with the rest of Mexico at around 97% There are several museums, Museo de la Revolución en la Frontera, INBA Museum (modern art), La Rodadora (which is an amazing children's museum with tons of hands on science exhibits), the Chamizal Archaeological Museum, San Agustín Regional Museum which I haven't been to yet. Actually there are a few more I haven't had a chance to check out. I am positive that there are more such things in a city like DF but as vantexan mentioned, that's a given when comparing the average city to a country's capital. We have the Juarez Symphony Orchestra, an Olympic stadium and several other stadiums, 2 or 3 performing arts theaters, plenty of fine dining, theaters that show foreign films regularly, at least 4 major newspapers, a large convention center with regular expos from all over the country, an international airport... What else was it that you were looking for?


Dear Emily,
I don't know what to say, perhaps you would feel more comfortable if I say that, yes, most towns like Juarez are just as developed as Df, Monterrey and Guadalajara, they have the exact same intelectual level, cultural, sports, etc.

I cannot do that, mine is a centralized Country, and most of the better things are in DF

This Country is managed from DF, President's official house, all of the National health Institutes, all of the ministeries, including Navy ( secretaría de Marina), most of the major newspapers, corporate offices, trading, most important Museums, Aztec calendar, , National ballet company, national olimpic comitee, Aztec stadium, bellas artes, national symphonic, UNAM, many many many intelectuals live in DF, even America's Empress (Virgen de Guadalupe) lives in Mexico City

It is not a dogma of faith, it's just how it is


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## emilybcruz (Oct 29, 2013)

GARYJ65 said:


> Dear Emily,
> I don't know what to say, perhaps you would feel more comfortable if I say that, yes, most towns like Juarez are just as developed as Df, Monterrey and Guadalajara, they have the exact same intelectual level, cultural, sports, etc.
> 
> I cannot do that, mine is a centralized Country, and most of the better things are in DF
> ...


I'm not saying that border towns are as developed as other major cities in Mexico. Obviously they aren't. I never said that. But to say that border towns (North or South) are hell holes full of uneducated, chueco, dirty, uncultured people is not accurate. That's all I am saying. I know you didn't say all of those things, I am responding to this thread as a whole, not just your particular comments.


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## vantexan (Sep 4, 2011)

GARYJ65 said:


> I agree with you and have to disagree with Vantexan's comment
> Border towns are not as described, and living there just to pass to Mexican side and have cheaper haircuts and stuff...? And then what? go back to civilization?
> Also, border towns are not known to be cultural. Sorry. Then again, It depends on how much culture one's have


But he did say border towns aren't as I described. It was never my intent to say the border region is better than elsewhere in Mexico and I made it clear that the central part of the country has a wonderful atmosphere, climate, etc. I'm just trying to point out there are nice enough places along the border worth considering for those who can't for numerous reasons live in Mexico but would like a Mexican influenced atmosphere in the States. Shopping on the Mexican side is a huge plus, and don't forget that many more Mexicans cross over to shop and work in the States than vice versa so it benefits them too. And it was never my intent to convince anyone living in central Mexico to move to the border, why would they? Just want to get the word out to potential expats who are trying to figure out how they're supposed to meet the new requirements to live in Mexico. Just as some have preconceived notions about Americans and paint all of us with the same brush, so too do many about the American/Mexican border. Always interesting to see prejudices demonstrated that aren't based on actual experience.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Good point, I worked in Oakland California and El Paso and for me it is a no contest, life is way more enjoyable in Oakland than in El Paso.
Give me the "there is no there" city any day.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

emilybcruz said:


> I don't see how I have. He's labeling an entire region of Mexico based on some criminals who pass through that region, not based on the people who actually live there. Listen, I don't know much about DF but I have 2 different friends whose husbands were murdered there on separate occasions while waiting for their US Visas, have heard countless complaints about how crowded parts of it are, how horrible the pollution is, how likely it is that you will get car jacked, etc, etc, etc. I've _heard _those things. They do not define my opinion of the entire city, nor would I be so ignorant to spout off comments like "Mexico City is dirty and full of car-jacking murderers." Which is kind of how I feel about Bobby's comment's towards border cities.


It's a shame that the things you have heard about Mexico City (from friends, from the media?) are so negative. The men who were murdered while waiting for their visas, where did this happen? Surely not anywhere near the US Embassy, which is located in a lovely, lively and quite safe neighborhood. Of course, parts of it are crowded - after all it is a metropolis of over 8 million people in a metropolitan area of around 20 million, I believe. And what is crowded to one person is just a normal number of people walking down the street to others. The pollution was pretty awful some years ago, but it has greatly improved, and there are days when I can see the mountains from the roof of my building, where I can hang up clothes to dry without fear that they'll come down off the line all filthy from the air. Since I don't have a car, I've never thought about car-jacking, so I can't offer any personal comments about that. But Mexico City has a wonderful public transportation system, so who needs a car? In terms of general safety, I have never seen it appear on lists of dangerous Mexican cities. In my experience, Mexicans from other parts of the country, most of whom have never been here, love to say what a horrible place it is, rather the way many Americans love to run down New York City.


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## emilybcruz (Oct 29, 2013)

Isla Verde said:


> It's a shame that the things you have heard about Mexico City (from friends, from the media?) are so negative. The men who were murdered while waiting for their visas, where did this happen? Surely not anywhere near the US Embassy, which is located in a lovely, lively and quite safe neighborhood. Of course, parts of it are crowded - after all it is a metropolis of over 8 million people in a metropolitan area of around 20 million, I believe. And what is crowded to one person is just a normal number of people walking down the street to others. The pollution was pretty awful some years ago, but it has greatly improved, and there are days when I can see the mountains from the roof of my building, where I can hang up clothes to dry without fear that they'll come down off the line all filthy from the air. Since I don't have a car, I've never thought about car-jacking, so I can't offer any personal comments about that. But Mexico City has a wonderful public transportation system, so who needs a car? In terms of general safety, I have never seen it appear on lists of dangerous Mexican cities. In my experience, Mexicans from other parts of the country, most of whom have never been here, love to say what a horrible place it is, rather the way many Americans love to run down New York City.


Those are stories/complaints I have heard from friends, not the media. But again, I don't allow any those things to shape my opinion of a place I have never been to. I have no doubts that I would fall in love with Mexico City if I were to visit and hopefully one day I will. And I have enjoyed learning more about it from those of you who have shared your experiences here on the forum. 

With that being said, I feel as though your last statement also applies to what we've been debating on this thread and I could say the same thing about people's opinions of border cities. They love to say what a horrible place it is, yet most of them have never been here.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

emilybcruz said:


> Those are stories/complaints I have heard from friends, not the media. But again, I don't allow any those things to shape my opinion of a place I have never been to. I have no doubts that I would fall in love with Mexico City if I were to visit and hopefully one day I will. And I have enjoyed learning more about it from those of you who have shared your experiences here on the forum.
> 
> With that being said, I feel as though your last statement also applies to what we've been debating on this thread and I could say the same thing about people's opinions of border cities. They love to say what a horrible place it is, yet most of them have never been here.


I hope you will be able to come for a visit one day. I'll be happy to give you my version of the grand tour. Your last point is well-made and I completely agree with you.


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## vantexan (Sep 4, 2011)

citlali said:


> Good point, I worked in Oakland California and El Paso and for me it is a no contest, life is way more enjoyable in Oakland than in El Paso.
> Give me the "there is no there" city any day.


And yet Oakland's crime rate and especially it's violent crime rate is much higher than El Paso's. Not a problem if you make good money and live in an affluent, well policed area of Oakland. For the rest of us it's a consideration. If I lived in the area it would be in Las Cruces, NM. It has pretty much everything, close to El Paso, close to Ruidoso.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

I worked downtown Oakland back in the good old Black Panther time and lived by Lake Merritt not far from Huey Newton. The very dangerous part was East Okland but there was plenty of crime downtown as well, but nice climate,close to San Francisco, good restaurants nice parks around, I worked for minimum wage so hardly a good job.
Much later I would go to El Paso and sold wine there and of course would go to Billy Crews and stay at his house as well . I think his place was in Santa Teresa. I always was depressed in El Paso did not like the look of it or the climate.
I still would take Oakland over the whole area so the crime rate anywhere does not tell the whole story about an area.The best meal I had in that area was in Cuidad Juarez. I wish I could remember the name of the restaurant.


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## JoanneR2 (Apr 18, 2012)

vantexan said:


> But he did say border towns aren't as I described. It was never my intent to say the border region is better than elsewhere in Mexico and I made it clear that the central part of the country has a wonderful atmosphere, climate, etc. I'm just trying to point out there are nice enough places along the border worth considering for those who can't for numerous reasons live in Mexico but would like a Mexican influenced atmosphere in the States. Shopping on the Mexican side is a huge plus, and don't forget that many more Mexicans cross over to shop and work in the States than vice versa so it benefits them too. And it was never my intent to convince anyone living in central Mexico to move to the border, why would they? Just want to get the word out to potential expats who are trying to figure out how they're supposed to meet the new requirements to live in Mexico. Just as some have preconceived notions about Americans and paint all of us with the same brush, so too do many about the American/Mexican border. Always interesting to see prejudices demonstrated that aren't based on actual experience.


Last week I spent two days working in our office in Tijuana. Not the first time I have been, but the first time I have really seen the city and spoken at some length with the Mexicans who live there. Yes, there are problems and, no it isn't always a comfortable place to be. However, we drove out of the city for 20 minutes and had lobster on the seafront, something I definitely cannot do in DF. The people are charming, well educated and much more relaxed than many that I work with here in DF or encounter in other large cities, such as Monterrey and, whilst I have not spent any significant amount of time there, I sometime find it difficult to identify with the perceptions of people on this forum with the reality of what I find on a day to day basis working with Mexicans in all the major cities of this country.


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## JoanneR2 (Apr 18, 2012)

Isla Verde said:


> It's a shame that the things you have heard about Mexico City (from friends, from the media?) are so negative. The men who were murdered while waiting for their visas, where did this happen? Surely not anywhere near the US Embassy, which is located in a lovely, lively and quite safe neighborhood. Of course, parts of it are crowded - after all it is a metropolis of over 8 million people in a metropolitan area of around 20 million, I believe. And what is crowded to one person is just a normal number of people walking down the street to others. The pollution was pretty awful some years ago, but it has greatly improved, and there are days when I can see the mountains from the roof of my building, where I can hang up clothes to dry without fear that they'll come down off the line all filthy from the air. Since I don't have a car, I've never thought about car-jacking, so I can't offer any personal comments about that. But Mexico City has a wonderful public transportation system, so who needs a car? In terms of general safety, I have never seen it appear on lists of dangerous Mexican cities. In my experience, Mexicans from other parts of the country, most of whom have never been here, love to say what a horrible place it is, rather the way many Americans love to run down New York City.


I cannot but agree. My office is on the 21st floor and the views to the mountains yesterday morning were spectacular. Admittedly there are days when all you can see is a vague brown haze but on, the increasingly frequent, clear days the cit is almost beautiful. I take the metrobus to work or walk when the weather is fine. I walk around my colonial in the evenings alone and have never felt threatened (long may that last). When I arrived two years ago we had a long lecture on carjacking, not wearing jewelry, not walking in the streets at night etc. However, whilst I take care and am aware of where I am and who is around me, I felt more insecure in the centre of London on my last visit back three weeks ago than I have ever felt in Mexico City.


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## vantexan (Sep 4, 2011)

citlali said:


> I worked downtown Oakland back in the good old Black Panther time and lived by Lake Merritt not far from Huey Newton. The very dangerous part was East Okland but there was plenty of crime downtown as well, but nice climate,close to San Francisco, good restaurants nice parks around, I worked for minimum wage so hardly a good job.
> Much later I would go to El Paso and sold wine there and of course would go to Billy Crews and stay at his house as well . I think his place was in Santa Teresa. I always was depressed in El Paso did not like the look of it or the climate.
> I still would take Oakland over the whole area so the crime rate anywhere does not tell the whole story about an area.The best meal I had in that area was in Cuidad Juarez. I wish I could remember the name of the restaurant.


When were you last there? El Paso has developed quite a bit in the last 10 years. But you're right, it's not for everyone. My brother hates the desert, but I love it.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

vantexan said:


> When were you last there? El Paso has developed quite a bit in the last 10 years. But you're right, it's not for everyone. My brother hates the desert, but I love it.


I change buses in Ciudad Juarez/El Paso once in awhile. Once I had most of a day free waiting for a bus in El Paso. I spent several hours in the Museum. It was wonderful. There was a film festival going on with a lot of short films shown followed by a discussion with the film makers. There was a movie in another room that was a documentary about workers in Mexico in the thirties. Then there were numerous exhibits both art and anthropological. It was the pleasantest time I ever spent waiting for a bus.


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## mexhapati (Nov 29, 2012)

vantexan said:


> ...won the Mexican War, and assuming there wouldn't have been subsequent wars, then what is now the border would be central Mexico and where many of you live would be considered southern Mexico. Just food for thought. Seems sometimes that border towns are given short shrift here but having traveled a ways into central Mexico and having visited most of the larger and some smaller border towns from AZ to TX I feel that Mexico truly does start at it's northern border and it's a whole other world than the U.S..
> 
> If someone reading this is considering Mexico but is leery of living in an area that requires Spanish to fully appreciate it, or is concerned about the cost of traveling to and from the States to visit family, or the cost of border runs because you don't qualify for residency, or will miss certain stores or conveniences not found in Mexico, or quite a few other reasons, consider the American side of the Mexican border. McAllen has 2 Barnes & Nobels plus everything else, Brownsville has a terrific zoo and South Padre Island, El Paso is a complete city with a beautiful university and a moderate climate, Del Rio is a great small city with a huge, well stocked reservoir nearby, Nogales is close to Tucson and is very affordable. My knowledge of points west of there is only what I've read but have seen good things on the Mexican side about Mexicali, Tecate, and just to the south of Tijuana. All close enough for American amenities. These areas have great food, great culture, quick access to Mexico for affordable shopping and dining and low cost medicine.
> 
> The U.S. border with Mexico is a unique part of the United States that should be experienced by anyone interested in living in Mexico. You might find it a good starting point, a good transition towards a move to Mexico or elsewhere in Latin America. Or even exactly what you're looking for.


i have probably crossed the us/mexico border at most all of them.... my favorite by far is progreso and nuevo progreso...love that whole area have you ever been there? great golf courses at harlingen, weslaco...one of the few places you'll see sugar cane fields,


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## vantexan (Sep 4, 2011)

mexhapati said:


> i have probably crossed the us/mexico border at most all of them.... my favorite by far is progreso and nuevo progreso...love that whole area have you ever been there? great golf courses at harlingen, weslaco...one of the few places you'll see sugar cane fields,


I lived in McAllen in the early 90's. Never made it over to Nuevo Progresso but I hear it's the place to go for dental work, meds, etc. My wife and I spent this afternoon in Nogales. Ate at a nice restaurant, La Roca, that's built into a cliff face. Had a great time shopping for souvenirs but was told over and over that business was dead. Didn't see many Anglos.


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## Bobbyb (Mar 9, 2014)

A few years ago when Nogales was having some serious cartel crime the Gringos stopped coming. The violence has subsided but the memory remains. The snowbirds never returned.


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