# Citizenship



## Sleepy1 (Jun 7, 2021)

I'd be able to apply for citizenship next year. Mexican friends and loved ones are excited about this. I'm not. Applying for anything makes me sleepy (see avatar). Unless it would stop me from getting kicked out of the country (if I'd ever be in that situation for whatever reason), why should I take the plunge?


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## Stevenjb (Dec 10, 2017)

Sleepy1 said:


> I'd be able to apply for citizenship next year. Mexican friends and loved ones are excited about this. I'm not. Applying for anything makes me sleepy (see avatar). Unless it would stop me from getting kicked out of the country (if I'd ever be in that situation for whatever reason), why should I take the plunge?


Assuming you are a US citizen. A second passport, possibly allowing access to countries prohibited by the US. 

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk


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## eastwind (Jun 18, 2016)

Second passport, as mentioned, plus:

So you can vote in Mexican elections? 

Perhaps not applicable to you, but I own an apartment in the coastal exclusion zone, so I have to have a fideicomiso. I just got the bill for it (one year anniversary of buying) and they've raised the price, they want $522 US for a year of doing nothing. If I got citizenship, I could get rid of the fideicomiso and save that fee _and _save on property taxes as I'm over 60 (I previously tried for that discount and SAT said I couldn't get the senior citizen's discount as the property wasn't in my name). That cost alone would make it worth the effort for me, but my Spanish isn't good enough yet.

I think as a citizen you can apply for a gun license, if that's something you'd even want. 

Just a little bit of extra security - the government could conceivably change the laws in a way that disadvantages permanent residents vs citizens. Or go on some kind of xenophobic binge and try to toss us out. 

If you're a 1%er you could renounce US citizenship and maybe save on taxes.


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## MangoTango (Feb 8, 2020)

I've been a naturalized Mexican citizen for a while now. For me it wasn't so much a plunge as a challenge. 

Looking back - the number one benefit is the way you are looked upon. Sure there will always be exceptions but many times when I am asked for my credentials people are blown away when I present my INE card. The look on their faces is incredible. It has changed the course of conversations. It is as though it shows a different level of commitment. Often times when I presented my PR card people would look at it and ask - what is this ?

I could be wrong but I believe any resident/citizen in Mexico can purchase a gun for the security of their home. As best I know there is only ONE place in Mexico where you can purchase a legal weapon (Polanco area). 

I could be wrong but I believe any permanent resident or naturalized citizen can lose their status for a short list of reasons. For example - staying outside Mexico for say 10 (?) years.

I have never used my Mexican passport, and I haven't used my US passport in maybe 6 years. Maybe I did enough travel when I was younger but distant travel just seems like too much work these days. Sure I like to hop in the car and drive 12 hours or so - but airports just don't excite me much.

Finally - yes there was a Spanish competency test as part of the naturalization process - and I failed it the first time. But - the people at SRE were extremely supportive.


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## Sleepy1 (Jun 7, 2021)

Some good reasons, but for now, the INE card would probably be the biggest benefit for me. I'm always asked for that (bit of a compliment if they think I'm a real Mexican despite my accent) and have to produce my sad PR card instead–which everybody complains about for having such tiny writing. I'm Australian, and I already have a second passport. I don't think I need a gun, and I own no property. My Spanish would be good enough for the test, but those tricky history/cultural questions I've heard about will probably be my downfall.


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## MangoTango (Feb 8, 2020)

We are just talking here - right ? I am no expert - just my past experiences. But for me - I think it was the fact that I DID own a decent house in a very decent community which may have eased the way for me. Due to age I did not have to take the cultural test, but interestingly enough, for me the language test encompassed some of those aspects (in a weird sort of way). 

It was never my intention to 'collect' passports and I have no idea how many you can hold with one from Mexico. That very well may have been one of the other items on the short list of ways to lose your Mexican naturalization. Often you hear of the need to denounce, say, a US citizenship to obtain Mexican and I did not encounter that, but it would certainly make for an interesting naturalization process ceremony where they needed to iterate down one's list of citizenships


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## maesonna (Jun 10, 2008)

MangoTango said:


> I could be wrong but I believe any permanent resident or naturalized citizen can lose their status for a short list of reasons. For example - staying outside Mexico for say 10 (?) years.


Yes, this has changed. A naturalized citizen loses their Mexican nationality if they remain outside Mexico for more than 5 years continuously.
Currently there is no limit on how long a permanent resident can remain outside Mexico without losing their residency (although there is no guarantee that this wouldn’t change at some point in the future). The limit for a permanent resident used to be 5 years cumulative in any 10-year period or 3 years continuous outside Mexico.


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## maesonna (Jun 10, 2008)

MangoTango said:


> Often you hear of the need to denounce, say, a US citizenship to obtain Mexican and I did not encounter that,


Mexico didn’t allow double nationality until 1998. Previous to that, a person acquiring Mexican nationality did indeed have to renounce other citizenships (although some countries, such as the UK, could choose to ignore these renunciations, so while the new Mexican was only Mexican from the point of view of Mexico, they still had their British citizenship from Britain’s point of view).
In 1998, a new law was passed allowing people to acquire Mexican nationality without renouncing their former citizenship. Supposedly according to what I’ve heard, this was originally intended to apply only to Mexicans who had emigrated to the US and had had to renounce their Mexican nationality in order to acquire US citizenship (the US has also allowed double nationality for some time, but it didn’t used to back then when those people became US citizens). The 1998 law was intended to allow these former Mexicans to recuperate their Mexican nationality without losing their US citizenship.
But since then, without explicit reform to the law, as far as I know, the 1998 law has crept into a wider use, and now anyone who otherwise qualifies can become a dual Mexican national, provided their other citizenship allows it. (Not all do, e.g. Japan, India, Austria, among others).


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## MangoTango (Feb 8, 2020)

maesonna said:


> Mexico didn’t allow double nationality until 1998. Previous to that, a person acquiring Mexican nationality did indeed have to renounce other citizenships (although some countries, such as the UK, could choose to ignore these renunciations, so while the new Mexican was only Mexican from the point of view of Mexico, they still had their British citizenship from Britain’s point of view).
> In 1998, a new law was passed allowing people to acquire Mexican nationality without renouncing their former citizenship. Supposedly according to what I’ve heard, this was originally intended to apply only to Mexicans who had emigrated to the US and had had to renounce their Mexican nationality in order to acquire US citizenship (the US has also allowed double nationality for some time, but it didn’t used to back then when those people became US citizens). The 1998 law was intended to allow these former Mexicans to recuperate their Mexican nationality without losing their US citizenship.
> But since then, without explicit reform to the law, as far as I know, the 1998 law has crept into a wider use, and now anyone who otherwise qualifies can become a dual Mexican national, provided their other citizenship allows it. (Not all do, e.g. Japan, India, Austria, among others).


For me - Mexico wanted a copy of every page of my US passport to corroborate my travel assertions. That was pretty much it in terms of my US citizenship. 

As for the US - I think they enjoy the worldwide taxation of their citizens.

Now what IS interesting is the Bank of America, where I have had an account since 1989 and where I keep a good size balance threw up a prompt when I accessed their website asking - "Are you a dual national?". They have only my Mexican address on file and they have overnighted stuff to me at their expense to that address. I answered YES to their question and nothing more ever came of it. That was like in the first few weeks of this year. (I have since taken out two other US dollar based credit cards just in case...)


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Sleepy1 said:


> Some good reasons, but for now, the INE card would probably be the biggest benefit for me. I'm always asked for that (bit of a compliment if they think I'm a real Mexican despite my accent) and have to produce my sad PR card instead–which everybody complains about for having such tiny writing. I'm Australian, and I already have a second passport. I don't think I need a gun, and I own no property. My Spanish would be good enough for the test, but those tricky history/cultural questions I've heard about will probably be my downfall.


I've been living here since 2007 and have been a "residente permanente" since 2013. When asked for my INE card for ID purposes (most recently when I received my two Covid vaccinations), I show them my RP card, which has always been accepted. I am always pleased that I am assumed to be a Mexican citizen whenever this comes up.


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## Sleepy1 (Jun 7, 2021)

Isla Verde said:


> I've been living here since 2007 and have been a "residente permanente" since 2013. When asked for my INE card for ID purposes (most recently when I received my two Covid vaccinations), I show them my RP card, which has always been accepted. I am always pleased that I am assumed to be a Mexican citizen whenever this comes up.


That was when I was last asked for an INE card, at my first Covid vaccination. And then the man serving me saw my very non-Spanish name on my form and had a 'que?' look on his face. He wrote Mr as part of my name because my comprobante de domicilio (English bank statement) addressed me that way.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Like others, I find that having an INE card is the biggest benefit of citizenship. It is an accepted ID everywhere with no questions asked. And the surprise on many people's faces that I have one is worth something as well.

I didn't have to take any tests, neither cultural nor language, just lots of paper work and about a year of visits to SRE to get everything in order. I think I was exempted from the cultural test because of age. For language, no one ever asked. I did all the paperwork and interaction with SRE on my own in Spanish, so I guess they just assumed my Spanish was adequate. No one ever accused me of being fluent, but I speak and understand enough to get by. I have heard of people using a facilitator and having to pass a Spanish test.


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## LoggedIn (Nov 21, 2017)

Sleepy1 said:


> I'd be able to apply for citizenship next year. Mexican friends and loved ones are excited about this. I'm not. Applying for anything makes me sleepy (see avatar). Unless it would stop me from getting kicked out of the country (if I'd ever be in that situation for whatever reason), why should I take the plunge?


Maybe you shouldn't. Trust your instincts?


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## MangoTango (Feb 8, 2020)

TundraGreen said:


> I didn't have to take any tests, neither cultural nor language, just lots of paper work and about a year of visits to SRE to get everything in order. I think I was exempted from the cultural test because of age. For language, no one ever asked. I did all the paperwork and interaction with SRE on my own in Spanish, so I guess they just assumed my Spanish was adequate. No one ever accused me of being fluent, but I speak and understand enough to get by. I have heard of people using a facilitator and having to pass a Spanish test.


Yes, I remember reading your write-up of your SRE experience when we were going through the process ourselves. Our experience differed quite a bit from yours. For one thing maybe the process took us a few months unlike the year it took you. (We didn't have a facilitator). I think the rules changed during the interim. I am far from fluent myself but what I lack in Spanish skills, my wife has in spades. We BOTH failed our initial attempt at the Spanish language test. It is not a Spanish grammar test and does (or did) have some subjective aspects. I believe that today the language test is required of everyone. The SRE website seems to say so.

Let me say this... My INM process was the pits (and may have taken close to as long as the SRE process). Have you ever had a situation where you meet someone for the first time and already you don't get along ? One girl gave me the hardest time because every curve of my signature didn't match my passport. When she asked me where I was from I answered - Florida. Well she was looking for the answer Miami (say). She thought I was being flippant. When my RP card finally came the office lost it in a cabinet and week after week after week they said - it has not yet arrived.

In contrast - the SRE process was a pleasure.


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## ef2u (Apr 28, 2019)

> Finally - yes there was a Spanish competency test as part of the naturalization process - and I failed it the first time. But - the people at SRE were extremely supportive.


That's what I'm worried about. How do we find out how comfortable we need to be in Spanish to pass it? And does their expectation go down as we get older?


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

how comfortable depends on the person you deal with. I speak fluent SPanish so no big deal but my husband does not and he got it pecause he was married to a Mexican citizen , a year after I got it...Another lawyer was outraged about it and made a big stinck about it but there was nothing he could do.


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## ef2u (Apr 28, 2019)

citlali said:


> how comfortable depends on the person you deal with. I speak fluent SPanish so no big deal but my husband does not and he got it pecause he was married to a Mexican citizen , a year after I got it...Another lawyer was outraged about it and made a big stinck about it but there was nothing he could do.


So how would anyone know if they were getting close to the needed level? What do they expect? How can one prepare if one doesn't know what is needed?


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## MangoTango (Feb 8, 2020)

At the time, I think someone at SRE did a deep background check on us. I could be very wrong but I think they knew we had made a sizable commitment (house/car etc) to a life in Mexico. They could see from our travel history that we were not running across the border every weekend. We were an older couple with some assets in the bank. My wife and I always showed up at the SRE office together. We dressed appropriately. Basically - I think we presented ourselves as people you would want to make Mexican citizens. (And I'm smiling as I write this - we have one rather influential Mexican friend who I can picture having helped somehow). 

The Spanish test was much easier the second time around because we then completely understood the rules and what was expected of us (like nice lengthy responses). 

And I'll repeat - the people at SRE were extremely supportive - from the little girl up front handling all the interactions with Mexico City, to the subdelegada, to the delegado. All of whom we met with personally along the way.


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## MangoTango (Feb 8, 2020)

ef2u said:


> So how would anyone know if they were getting close to the needed level? What do they expect? How can one prepare if one doesn't know what is needed?


Do you live within easy commuting distance of an SRE office ? If so - stick you head in the door, introduce yourself, explain your concerns and ask for help/advice. I'm sure they will steer you in the right direction. Ya know - when we went through the process the half of the local SRE office which handled emigration type issues for Mexican citizens (passports/visa etc) had lines that were hundred of people long. The people who handled the immigration type issues (naturalization) were very lonely.


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## ef2u (Apr 28, 2019)

MangoTango said:


> At the time, I think someone at SRE did a deep background check on us. I could be very wrong but I think they knew we had made a sizable commitment (house/car etc) to a life in Mexico. They could see from our travel history that we were not running across the border every weekend. We were an older couple with some assets in the bank. My wife and I always showed up at the SRE office together. We dressed appropriately. Basically - I think we presented ourselves as people you would want to make Mexican citizens. (And I'm smiling as I write this - we have one rather influential Mexican friend who I can picture having helped somehow).
> 
> The Spanish test was much easier the second time around because we then completely understood the rules and what was expected of us (like nice lengthy responses).
> 
> And I'll repeat - the people at SRE were extremely supportive - from the little girl up front handling all the interactions with Mexico City, to the subdelegada, to the delegado. All of whom we met with personally along the way.


I'm just looking for some way of knowing how proficient one needs to be to be reasonably certain they would pass the language fluency test. Maybe someone here has some idea?


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## ef2u (Apr 28, 2019)

MangoTango said:


> Do you live within easy commuting distance of an SRE office ? If so - stick you head in the door, introduce yourself, explain your concerns and ask for help/advice. I'm sure they will steer you in the right direction. Ya know - when we went through the process the half of the local SRE office which handled emigration type issues for Mexican citizens (passports/visa etc) had lines that were hundred of people long. The people who handled the immigration type issues (naturalization) were very lonely.


That brings up a really good point: Could one just walk in and attempt to talk to them in Spanish and then ask them if they think its good enough to pass the language test? As I exit I can imagine the laughter rising to the ceiling as the door closes.


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## MangoTango (Feb 8, 2020)

ef2u said:


> I'm just looking for some way of knowing how proficient one needs to be to be reasonably certain they would pass the language fluency test. Maybe someone here has some idea?


I have come to the definite conclusion that I am totally incapable of communicating with Canadians on forums such as this. And I am sure it is all my fault. It is like oil and water.

Good luck (over and out).


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

It would be a waste of time as I said , it depends on the person that will be speaking with you. THe test is a general conversation test and if you can speak Spanish is very easy but if you only understand ever other word and cannot answer then you have a problem. How good you have to be depends on the person you will be speaking with . Try and if you flunk take it again, pretty simple.


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## ef2u (Apr 28, 2019)

MangoTango said:


> I have come to the definite conclusion that I am totally incapable of communicating with Canadians on forums such as this. And I am sure it is all my fault. It is like oil and water.
> 
> Good luck (over and out).


It was a very simple question I thought.


citlali said:


> It would be a waste of time as I said , it depends on the person that will be speaking with you. THe test is a general conversation test and if you can speak Spanish is very easy but if you only understand ever other word and cannot answer then you have a problem. How good you have to be depends on the person you will be speaking with . Try and if you flunk take it again, pretty simple.


"If you can speak Spanish".....
Do you realize how nonsensical that statement is? Its a fluency test, right? How could someone that "speaks Spanish" fail? When you say "speak Spanish" it implies fluency, the ability to carry on a fast conversation. Obviously they can't expect everyone to be at that level because if they did a lot of people with a lot of money wouldn't get citizenship. People that can pay for translation services and often do. I doubt that would be very productive for the government. 

Also I heard they have lower standards if the person applying is older or a senior as its much harder for seniors to learn a new language. Maybe someone can comment on that? 

Because if you have to be "fluent" we might as well give up right from the beginning if you only know a few hundred simple words and numbers and focus on a country with reasonable expectations and a country that wants foreign investment. The main reason to get citizenship I wuld think is to avoid having to get the dreaded Fidelcomiso along with its wonderfully expensive annual costs when purchasing and holding real estate.


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## ef2u (Apr 28, 2019)

And wouldn't it be useful to just go into the office and talk in Spanish to the person that gives the tests and couldn't they give you an idea how close you are to their expectations?


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## maesonna (Jun 10, 2008)

ef2u said:


> And wouldn't it be useful to just go into the office and talk in Spanish to the person that gives the tests and couldn't they give you an idea how close you are to their expectations?


Maybe, maybe not. For one thing, is the same person always giving the tests? I.e., will the person you go and talk to end up being the same person who gives you the test?

For another thing, if you go to inquire, they can say anything that you might like to hear, but it could be a different story on the day of the test. It’s a cultural value to try to avoid saying discouraging or negative things, and this is a stronger cultural value than truth-telling, so it may prevail whenever the situation allows.

I recall reading something a few years ago (might have been this forum, might have been another one). The anecdote was that the person applying for Mexican nationality was a little anxious about the Spanish language test, and was waiting for the test… waiting… and somehow found themselves being ushered out of the office with their nationality granted, and still hadn’t had to do a test. But thinking about it afterward, they came to the conclusion that what they thought had been idle chit-chat while standing around waiting for the steps of the process, that had actually been the language test.


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## ef2u (Apr 28, 2019)

maesonna said:


> Maybe, maybe not. For one thing, is the same person always giving the tests? I.e., will the person you go and talk to end up being the same person who gives you the test?
> 
> For another thing, if you go to inquire, they can say anything that you might like to hear, but it could be a different story on the day of the test. It’s a cultural value to try to avoid saying discouraging or negative things, and this is a stronger cultural value than truth-telling, so it may prevail whenever the situation allows.
> 
> I recall reading something a few years ago (might have been this forum, might have been another one). The anecdote was that the person applying for Mexican nationality was a little anxious about the Spanish language test, and was waiting for the test… waiting… and somehow found themselves being ushered out of the office with their nationality granted, and still hadn’t had to do a test. But thinking about it afterward, they came to the conclusion that what they thought had been idle chit-chat while standing around waiting for the steps of the process, that had actually been the language test.


Yes, you're so right about Mexican culture avoiding negative things. That can hugely color what people say so much. Perhaps the only way of ascertaining this is to listen to the experiences of others. Hopefully others here that have taken the test and passed or failed can share their experiences. Obviously if you're fluent it has zero bearing on this subject. What we need to know is how bad can my Spanish be and still pass. (This sounds like grade school!)
Also: Are their expectations lower for seniors or people over say 55 or 60?


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

It depends on the person that gives the test and in Guadalajara when I took the test there were 4 or 5 lawyers that gave the test so no one can answer your question .. Every place is different as well and I suspect thjat some people are lenient and some are not. You will not get a straight answer from the people working there so you have to jump in and see. I was over 60 when I took the test and I do not believe the age had anything to do with it.


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## ef2u (Apr 28, 2019)

citlali said:


> It depends on the person that gives the test and in Guadalajara when I took the test there were 4 or 5 lawyers that gave the test so no one can answer your question .. Every place is different as well and I suspect thjat some people are lenient and some are not. You will not get a straight answer from the people working there so you have to jump in and see. I was over 60 when I took the test and I do not believe the age had anything to do with it.


As you said you are fluent so your experience isn't exactly relevant unfortunately. 
We need feedback from people that struggle with Spanish, that can communicate in simple words but aren't familiar with tenses or any sort of nuance of the language. 

Please, oh ye that labor in thy Spanish, tell us how ye fared! Were ye cast aside, sad faced and citizenless or did ye triumph in yon office of the inquisiter?

And please mention your approximate age and if you think they had lower standards if you were a senior.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

My experience is very relevant because my husband Spanish is very poor and he passed the exam. So I know more than you do on the subject. BUt frankly I do not care for your answer so you are on your own. Do whatever and good luck to you.


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## maesonna (Jun 10, 2008)

ef2u said:


> What we need to know is how bad can my Spanish be and still pass.


According to the same person whose anecdote I cited above, you have be able to speak and understand well enough to be able to handle the process on your own behalf without someone at your side interpreting for you.

But that’s just one person’s experience, and it was quite a few years ago. I don’t know that person’s age, but they weren’t young folk.

Where age does make a difference is that over 60’s don’t have to do the exam on Mexican history and culture.


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## Ernesto.Mx (Aug 19, 2021)

hmmm may the force be with us.....


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## Ernesto.Mx (Aug 19, 2021)

been taking Spanish lessons for over a year and got hammered with grammer....still not able to communicate


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Ernesto.Mx said:


> been taking Spanish lessons for over a year and got hammered with grammer....still not able to communicate


Speaking as a former Spanish teacher, I am wondering what sort of lessons you are taking. After all, grammar is the structure of any language. What exactly have you been doing in your classes?


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## Ernesto.Mx (Aug 19, 2021)

Isla Verde said:


> Speaking as a former Spanish teacher, I am wondering what sort of lessons you are taking. After all, grammar is the structure of any language. What exactly have you been doing in your classes?


conjugating verbs, past, present, future, difference between ser/estar, indicative, subjunctive, homework making sentences etc. I got sooooo confused by all subjunctive/indicative (and I believe there's 7 of these) I gave up after a year. I simply wanted to be able to communicate. I don't even understand grammer in my native language, let alone Spanish. It got me to the point where I started to believe i'm just not cut out for this language. I am having a hard time learing this way.


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## surabi (Jan 1, 2017)

I don't know that you'll get a definitive answer- it may depend on who is administering the test. I remember years ago people reporting that the guy who gave the test there had a speech impediment that made him difficult to understand even for other Mexicans. Of course, most failed the test.

I know a couple where the husband passed the test, and I know he wasn't highly fluent-- I doubt he could carry on an in-depth political discussion with a university educated Mexican, for instance. But his wife failed the test 3 times and gave up.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Ernesto.Mx said:


> conjugating verbs, past, present, future, difference between ser/estar, indicative, subjunctive, homework making sentences etc. I got sooooo confused by all subjunctive/indicative (and I believe there's 7 of these) I gave up after a year. I simply wanted to be able to communicate. I don't even understand grammer in my native language, let alone Spanish. It got me to the point where I started to believe i'm just not cut out for this language. I am having a hard time learing this way.


It is hard to learn a second language when you're older. It sounds as though the classes you were taking put too much emphasis on memorizing verb conjugations and not enough on using them as a way to communicate. Maybe you could find a private tutor who would gear lessons toward the goals you have. Wish I could help.


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

I agree with Isla Verde 100% Here's why:
As a kindergarten student at a Teacher's College, we were simply taught to speak and write correctly. Then came World War II and we followed my father to other places, where they taught grammar, diagramming and other such things. It was all gobbledygook to me, and I ignored it. In 1945, we returned to our student teachers and their professors, where life returned to normal. Then, in public high school, I continued to ignore grammar rules and labels, as did the other eight 'guinea pigs' from the Teacher's College's experimental grade school. They understood. I managed to become an "A" student in French, without the inconvenience of grammar, later learned to survive in a bit of Turkish for a couple of years, and eventually retired to Mexico. I learned mostly 'by ear', which seemed much easier than the ten or twelve lessons that I attended. Now, out of Mexico for six years, I am still able to converse in Texas and Arizona, at an 'intermediate level', and am told that I have no '****** accent'.
So, there is hope. Try to find native spekers with patience, and they can be very helpful. Listen carefully to TV if the speakers are not talking too fast. Read a local Spanish newspaper every day, even if it is the same one for several days or weeks. Force yourself to think in simple Spanish by asking yourself questions and then forming the answer. At the same time, log on to Duolingo.com every day, without fail. Oh, I am now almost 84 and still learning a bit more Spanish and Turkish by simple absorbtion. Not so much French, now, as I am on the wrong border and no longer able to travel or read much.


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## Ernesto.Mx (Aug 19, 2021)

Isla Verde said:


> It is hard to learn a second language when you're older. It sounds as though the classes you were taking put too much emphasis on memorizing verb conjugations and not enough on using them as a way to communicate. Maybe you could find a private tutor who would gear lessons toward the goals you have. Wish I could help.


Yes, I probably need to find a tutor and set a goal to learn sufficient spanish to pass the language test, maybe that will motivate me better. And yes, I have 7 notebooks filled with verbs and tenses etc...ai ai, let's focus on small talk/conversation, that's what you want on a day to day basis anyway.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Ernesto.Mx said:


> Yes, I probably need to find a tutor and set a goal to learn sufficient spanish to pass the language test, maybe that will motivate me better. And yes, I have 7 notebooks filled with verbs and tenses etc...ai ai, let's focus on small talk/conversation, that's what you want on a day to day basis anyway.





Ernesto.Mx said:


> Yes, I probably need to find a tutor and set a goal to learn sufficient spanish to pass the language test, maybe that will motivate me better. And yes, I have 7 notebooks filled with verbs and tenses etc...ai ai, let's focus on small talk/conversation, that's what you want on a day to day basis anyway.


That sounds like a plan. Just keep in mind that what you call grammar is needed to structure small talk/conversation.


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## Ernesto.Mx (Aug 19, 2021)

RVGRINGO said:


> I agree with Isla Verde 100% Here's why:
> As a kindergarten student at a Teacher's College, we were simply taught to speak and write correctly. Then came World War II and we followed my father to other places, where they taught grammar, diagramming and other such things. It was all gobbledygook to me, and I ignored it. In 1945, we returned to our student teachers and their professors, where life returned to normal. Then, in public high school, I continued to ignore grammar rules and labels, as did the other eight 'guinea pigs' from the Teacher's College's experimental grade school. They understood. I managed to become an "A" student in French, without the inconvenience of grammar, later learned to survive in a bit of Turkish for a couple of years, and eventually retired to Mexico. I learned mostly 'by ear', which seemed much easier than the ten or twelve lessons that I attended. Now, out of Mexico for six years, I am still able to converse in Texas and Arizona, at an 'intermediate level', and am told that I have no '**** accent'.
> So, there is hope. Try to find native spekers with patience, and they can be very helpful. Listen carefully to TV if the speakers are not talking too fast. Read a local Spanish newspaper every day, even if it is the same one for several days or weeks. Force yourself to think in simple Spanish by asking yourself questions and then forming the answer. At the same time, log on to Duolingo.com every day, without fail. Oh, I am now almost 84 and still learning a bit more Spanish and Turkish by simple absorbtion. Not so much French, now, as I am on the wrong border and no longer able to travel or read much.


I will try reading the newspaper and duolingo, thank you for the encouragement 
Sounds like you had quite an interesting life as well!


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## surabi (Jan 1, 2017)

Ernesto.Mx said:


> conjugating verbs, past, present, future, difference between ser/estar, indicative, subjunctive, homework making sentences etc. I got sooooo confused by all subjunctive/indicative (and I believe there's 7 of these) I gave up after a year. I simply wanted to be able to communicate. I don't even understand grammer in my native language, let alone Spanish. It got me to the point where I started to believe i'm just not cut out for this language. I am having a hard time learing this way.


Different people learn in different ways. That you don't even understand grammar in your native language likely means when it was taught in elementary school, that it wasn't taught well or in a way you could understand.

It isn't rocket science, and I have taught people who didn't understand the meanings of grammar terms in English to "get it", pretty easily.

Irregular verb, in any language, just have to be memorized, as they don't follow a pattern. "Went" certainly bears no logical relationship to "go".

I still have not mastered subjunctive- it is not used much in English, but extensively in Spanish.

Here is how I taught myself Spanish, which may be of use to you. I have the 101 Spanish Verbs book and a good dictionary. When I knew I had something to accomplish, I looked up how to say it in Spanish, using the correct verb forms and grammar. So instead of walking into the hardware store and just saying "Lija (sandpaper), por favor", as many gringoes would, I wrote out how to say "I am looking for some fine sandpaper." Because I used the phrase for something I needed to do, I retained it, and now that I knew how to say "I am looking for some...", in the future, I just had to substitute another noun.

I find that a much easier way to learn and retain than rote learning.

It may be encouraging for you to realize that it's really only the present and 2 past tenses that are the hard ones to learn. All the other tenses are quite simple for regular verbs. I was intimidated by the 7 compound verb tenses until I realized they are simple- all you need to learn is the conjugations of the verb "haber". Then you just add the past participle of the verb. And if past participle is a confusing concept for you, all it is, is the passive form of the verb. As in "It's broken" or "It is written".

It sounds like you need a different Spanish teacher, because "studying" Spanish for a year and still not being able to put a correct sentence together is strange. 
And "We need feedback from people that struggle with Spanish, that can communicate in simple words but aren't familiar with tenses..." indicates that you don't understand that communicating with the vocabulary of a 3 year old in incorrect verb tense is not considered to be "fluency" by anyone's standards and will certainly not fly for a Spanish fluency test- I imagine it's acceptable not to be able to speak as if you had a master's degree in Spanish, and make a few errors, but you have to know more than a few words and be able to use verbs in more than first-person present tense.


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