# Advice please: Australia or Spain?



## .JD (Aug 15, 2012)

Hello everyone, I've spent most of the evening reading through your posts and found lots of useful information but still struggling to make a decision.

I am a 35 year old contract web developer from Cambridge, UK. I am married with 4 children, two boys aged 14 and 12 and two girls aged 4 and 3.5 months.

We have come to Spain to visit my mother-in-law for the whole of August. We've rented a holiday Finca just outside Alhaurin el Grande (not the quality "villa" we were sold but thats a whole other story!).

Our initial reason for the visit was to let the kids and my wife spend time with nana before we emigrated to Australia having recently started the visa process.

The problem is, now I'm in Spain I'm wondering weather Spain might be a better option. We'd be closer to family in the UK and I could do my UK contracts remotely so would be earning £'s whilst living in Spain and could commute (only when absolutely necessary). We also have family in Portugal that we visited a few days ago and drove there in 5.5 hours.

Obviously Spain has a few obstacles such as the language barrier. Personally I love Spanish and would love to learn, my wife is shy and lacks confidence but very intelligent and I'm sure would overcome this. I'm thinking we would put the two boys into English speaking international school and our 4 year old girl straight into a Spanish school. 

I know Australia (we are looking at Brisbane) has a lot to offer but its things like Australians not really liking the English, dangerous spiders, sharks and then the distance from home should a family member take ill. 

We lived in Spain (Estacion de Cartama) 7 years ago when the boys where young but my wife got home sick so we returned to the UK. I think the reason for that was family would visit from the UK and we would always be saying goodbye to them, not to mention everyone seeing us as a free holiday (a bit annoying). The other issue I had was snapping out of holiday mode, I started to drink daily and smoke quite heavily whereas I don't smoke and hardly ever drink in the UK. 

I've read a lot of JoJo's posts and was disappointed to learn she returned to the UK as I think we might have had a lot in common in terms of family/work etc. I'm a bit concerned that in one of her posts she mentions the desperation here in Spain - I've definitely noticed a difference from 7 years ago such as closed shops/bars and half build villas etc. That does not worry me so much because its happening in the UK, I'm more concerned about the rising crime rate - is it still a safe place to raise kids, especially teens?

The boys have a very social life in England and are always out with friends after school. Our 12 year old practically lives at the local skatepark. I've been speaking with a few people and Alhaurin de la Torre has been mentioned a few times as a nice place to live. If we where able to find a villa within walking distance of the local skate park would it be safe to let our 12 year old son go there on his own knowing he does not speak any Spanish? Is it likely he would be picked on?

Would I be hampering their social skills by moving them to a none English speaking country during adolescence?

Would the pace of life be too slow for them in comparison to Australia?

Aside from all that I keep thinking, my wife would have her mum close by and all girls need their mother, more so when their a mother of a very young baby.

Anyway, sorry to rant on, I'm just torn with this - hence the 2:30am post ;-)

John


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## javierch (Aug 2, 2012)

I would prefer Australia but if she feels homesick the family will be much further away,etc .
Spain has areas and towns with lots of expats ,specially around costa blanca so it should be ok to make friends,etc . I would not go into a very spanish town with not expats in the same age range that your kids as without understanding the locals at that age It would mean they get excluded really.If They go to an International School Hopefully They will get friends that way and go skating with them .
Canary Islands is the only part of Spain with good weather all year round though so more similar to Australia and they also have expats communities there .

The only other European country ,apart from Ireland,that speaks English is Malta I suppose .


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## neddie (Jun 11, 2012)

...JD....at the end of the day it is you and your wife who will have to make the final decision ! If it was me, i would be more concerned about my wife being willing and prepared to make the adjustment to a new life in either country. If your wife got homesick before, she may get that way again in either country. One of the biggest problems expats have is trying to live the same life style in the new country that they lived "back home".

With due respect, there are more important things to consider than sharks, spiders and your son being picked on. Kids usually adapt very quickly and those adults who have the will will also adapt. 

Have you and your wife been to Australia? I have a number of friends from Rhodesia/Zimbabwe who emigrated to Oz, mainly Perth, and they are all happy over there. It sounds like you have relatives in both Spain and Portugal which would be a plus for a move to Spain.

Besides keeping your wife happy you have to be sure of having the income to put the 'dried sausage, cheese, bread and wine' on the table each and every day in Spain......and in Oz it's easier, there they survive on "Fosters" beer......LOL

I suppose at the end of the day i wouldn't move to either country without spending a few months at least (if feasible) before making a move especially with a family.


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## Cazzy (Nov 23, 2008)

We love Spain and the fact that we can get back to the UK quickly and cheaply. My Dad lives in Australia and we only see each other every few years due to the cost!!! We live in Inland Spain and there are many families that have moved here with children of all ages. They all seem happy. Our son was 14 when we moved here and like you we had our reservations about language, so he stayed in the UK and went to boarding school. (his choice)


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

Not sure I agree about the Australian's not liking the brits, I speak to several brits down there and they were all made welcome so long as you go there to live the Australian life and not as an Englishman living in Australia. On the plus side you would have no language problems, your children would make new chums easily, no private School fees and the job market is good but...the cost of living is quite high. One of my nurses went out a couple of years ago and took a very nice wad of cash from a house sale with her, without that she tells me she would be back in the UK now as the setup costs out there and property were very high.

Spain gives you ease of access to family but the language barrier would be a hinderence should you need it for your business but would not really present a major problem if your trading is carried out in English and you could learn Spanish at your own pace. It would be much harder for your eldest to find chums but for me the big worry would be what happens in the future for them work wise. What do you do for them as the economy in Spain won't be recovered by the time they are of university/working age, their options would be limited where in Australia they wouldn't have the same hill to climb so to speak; they would be better integrated into a society they would know and understand and that has an education system and economy where they could blossom.

Flip of the coin really for you, for me if I wanted to move it would be Australia (or New Zealand).


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## xgarb (May 6, 2011)

Would you pass the entrance tests for Australia? I looked into it and would not have been able to legally work there so I chose Spain and love it.


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

My brother-in-law moved to Melbourne about 5 years ago when he was the OPs age. They had to put down a 40,000 AD 'deposit' and waited for 2 years to achieve citizenship etc. He was able to qualify for entrance and gain the necessary points because he has a first class law degree from Cambridge and another degree in urban redevelpoment. They found it very difficult for the first four years due to the distance and cost of getting back home and seeing relatives etc but they are now very happy and have no plans at the moment to return to UK. We chose Spain for so many reasons but one of them was my parents being accessible in the UK. Needn't have worried as they followed us out less than a year after we moved out here.
But in answer to the OPs original question, Spain or Australia, I'm afraid the only sensible answer can be, how long is a piece of string?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

thrax said:


> My brother-in-law moved to Melbourne about 5 years ago when he was the OPs age. They had to put down a 40,000 AD 'deposit' and waited for 2 years to achieve citizenship etc. He was able to qualify for entrance and gain the necessary points because he has a first class law degree from Cambridge and another degree in urban redevelpoment. They found it very difficult for the first four years due to the distance and cost of getting back home and seeing relatives etc but they are now very happy and have no plans at the moment to return to UK. We chose Spain for so many reasons but one of them was my parents being accessible in the UK. Needn't have worried as they followed us out less than a year after we moved out here.
> But in answer to the OPs original question,* Spain or Australia*, I'm afraid the only sensible answer can be, how long is a piece of string?


yes, agreed - no-one can really answer that one

one point I will make though, is that for 2 English speaking teenagers leaving school in a few years there would be little to no future for them here in Spain - I'm worried enough about my 2 & they are totally bilingual (tri if you count valenciano)


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## xgarb (May 6, 2011)

You might want to look at the exchange rate as well.. if you're only earning sterling.. Australia will be very expensive.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

I have been talking to people who now live in Australia, but are at the moment visiting family here in Valverde, El Hierro, One lives in Wollongong, N.S.W., the other in Perth W.A.

They both expressed concern regarding the economy of Australia, which at the moment is very dependent on mineral exports to China and other developing countries in Asia. They fear that if these exports cease or decline, so will Australia and this will effect their quality of life.

I spent time in Australia as a young man. I like the country and the people. Later in life I tried to emigrate, but the basturds would not let me in

I am now retired and happy to live here, in what I believe is still part of Spain

You have one hell of a decision to make!!


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

Our boy is 2 and nearly a half... That gives him around 19 years (assuming he goes to university and doesn't have a gap year or study law or medicine) for the world's economies to return to something like normal. And I'm pretty confident they will. It's a bit cyclic and although none of the worlds economic collapses are ever the same they all have one thing in common and that is give them enough time and it gets better. So the boy will be bilingual and have a pretty good education (school plus home tuition) so I am optimisitc for his economic future, assuming the planet doesn't have other horrors in store for us, planet or human made.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

I don't think I'd fancy the Brisbane climate! Floods, droughts, tropical cyclones, hot humid summers ...

Brisbane - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'd love to live in Perth or Melbourne, though I admit they are the only cities in Oz I have been to.


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

My bil lives in Melbourne and they happen to love inner cities. That's what they've got. They live in Moonee Ponds, right in the middle of a sprawling mass of tightly packed houses. We live in the campo in Spain. No prizes for figuring out which kind of living we prefer....


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Brrrrr Melbourne gets cold in winter.


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

Hepa said:


> Brrrrr Melbourne gets cold in winter.


Yes and in summer too. Because of its geographical location Melbourne is subject to severe weather variations. My bil recalls one of their first summer days there when the temp hit 41C in the morning and dropped to 13C in the afternoon. I don't think I'd like that.....


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

thrax said:


> My bil lives in Melbourne and they happen to love inner cities. That's what they've got. They live in Moonee Ponds, right in the middle of a sprawling mass of tightly packed houses. We live in the campo in Spain. No prizes for figuring out which kind of living we prefer....


Lovely countryside around though, Dingdangdongs or something, with blue hills.

I stayed in in the Italian quarter and it was wonderful!


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Dandenong


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

Now that is an amazing post from Hepa since every time I try to post a one word reply I'm told that I have to have a minimum of three words. Which is why my posts go on forever. For example, I was sitting in the garden, why, only yesterday, when I noticed a blackbird chewing on an Egyptian locust. Ordinarily this wouldn't have bothered me but.....................................


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

thrax said:


> Now that is an amazing post from Hepa since every time I try to post a one word reply I'm told that I have to have a minimum of three words. Which is why my posts go on forever. For example, I was sitting in the garden, why, only yesterday, when I noticed a blackbird chewing on an Egyptian locust. Ordinarily this wouldn't have bothered me but.....................................


3_ characters_


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

Well I am speaking from personal experience here. If I type the word 'yes' in a response I get told that it isn't enough and yes is three characters.... However, I'm willing to try again, coz things might have changed. Next time I'll type IBM, or, failing that, HAL.


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

And whilst the number of posts you've made Xabi, makes you look like a pro, compared to JoJo you remain, like me, an amateur. However, I stand and salute your rep power. Mine, as you will see, befits a reprobate such as myself. But herein lies another story. When I was 15 I waited in earnest for the day I could legally go and see X rated films (that will tell you roughly how ancient I appear to be). Just about on my birthday, the Government in power thought it necessary to change that age for such films to 18. Then, as I approached my 21st, I looked forward to partying through the night as I celebrated getting my key of the door (whatever that meant) and a few weeks before, the Government changed it to 18. So I missed it. On this forum, a little while after I joined, the 'like' system was introduced, which I like (sic) but it meant that my rep power would forever be minimalistic. Such is life, he sighed......


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

thrax said:


> Well I am speaking from personal experience here. If I type the word 'yes' in a response I get told that it isn't enough and yes is three characters.... However, I'm willing to try again, coz things might have changed. Next time I'll type IBM, or, failing that, HAL.


no?


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

xabiachica said:


> no?


I kid you not, but then I have a Packard Bell pc and no I'm not advertising...


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

thrax said:


> I kid you not, but then I have a Packard Bell pc and *no I'm not advertising*...


I'd not boast about owning a Packard Bell either


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## .JD (Aug 15, 2012)

Hello everyone and thank you for your replies. I'm replying from my phone so not able to read the posts individually as I reply - hence why I'm not addressing each of you individually.

I agree it's only a decision we can make but I do appreciate all your points, I asked the question here because most of you have lived with similar challanges so can provide some insight. 

One question was would you gain entry into AUS, yes because my trade has been on the skills shortage list for years.

Today has been a good day, when I informed my UK contract I was coming to Spain for a month they asked me to work remotely for two of the four weeks, that started today but as I don't have an Internet connection in our "Finca" (was suppose to be villa) I'm using an Internet cafe in Estacion de Cartama. The owner has been fab, I don't speak much Spanish but have an app on my phone that translates and it's really helped. The owner spent about an hour installing a wifi router so I could sit in a more comfortable location and just really comes across as a helpful chap. On the way home I popped into a bar in Cartama for a "cafe con letche" and again the owner was chatty, knew a bit of English and helped me with my Spanish. Overall I get a really good feeling about Spain.

We have arranged to view some properties over the next few days and are visiting MIT in Malaga (international school) tomorrow to take a look around. I'm hoping the kids like it.

After talking at length with anyone who would listen I'm now thinking - we move to Spain whilst in the process of the AUS visa, we have two years from when it's awarded to actually move, so theres no rush. The kids can learn the culture whilst my wife gets support with the baby from here mum. I will focus on stabilising our UK income and increasing savings and in 12 months time Ana (the baby) will be 15.5 months old and a lot easier to manage, the boys will be ready to try somewhere new. At that point we'll go to Australia for a month holiday and If we find that in 12 months we prefer Spain, we will return to Spain, organise we'll move to AUS.

John


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## neddie (Jun 11, 2012)

...JD, well done:clap2:.....looks like you have worked things out!! 

I hope that all goes well for you and your family and that you overcome the roadblocks that are sure to confront you. 

I have only been on this site a short time but from what i have seen I'm sure that the members will give much assistance when it is sought.


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## Sirtravelot (Jul 20, 2011)

Your plan does sound good!

I just wanted to give my 2 cents to this thread.

Personally, I can't say much about Australia because I've never been there, but I have lived in Canada. What does that have to do with anything? Well they are both old colonies, and what my personal experience with Canada sums up to, is basically that it's a country in the middle of nowhere self absorbed with its own existence.

...And that is one thing I have also seen being said about Australia by someone else on this forum!

They generally felt that Australia was self important and cut off from the world and that people lived in their own bubbles because of that.

Maybe it's not too important for you, but I know it has been for other people. It certainly was a reason for me to return to Europe.

Just some food for thought.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Sirtravelot said:


> Your plan does sound good!
> 
> I just wanted to give my 2 cents to this thread.
> 
> ...


my brother lives in Australia - he really _does_ seem cut off from the rest of the world - has no idea what is going on anywhere else - & neither does he care

however, it happens in Spain too, as has been sadly demonstrated recently on this forum

it is perfectly possible to live in an expatbubble & not see the poverty in your own town


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## agua642 (May 24, 2009)

Hi, between my partner & I we have lived in Spain 30years, my daughter was born in Spain is bilingual & Valenciano. 
My partner is an Apple Mac consultant/ repairs & web designer, we are considering relocating to Malta in the future.
Unless you speak fluent Spanish u have little or no chance of earning a living in Spain nowadays!
and having a good quality of life. 
I love Spain but Unfortunatly Spain has had it easy for to long! It's time for changes, locales and ex-pats have to adapt! However the Spanish people are genuinely friendly! and like the British.
Flights are cheap plenty, visiting uk whenever is easier then from Australia. You'll need to be very strong minded and determined and well focused to survive in Spain. Good luck


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## MrSam (Jul 31, 2012)

Sirtravelot said:


> Your plan does sound good!
> 
> I just wanted to give my 2 cents to this thread.
> 
> ...


I've lived in Australia for nearly 30 years and although the quality of life here is good, there are downsides to living in this part of the world: as there are anywhere, I suppose.

I wouldn't call Aussies self-important as a general rule. They can be annoyingly insular and parochial in outlook which they sometimes mistake for 'patriotism'. But they can usually take a joke and the famous disdain for 'whinging poms' is almost universally good-natured. 

Some things I don't like are (not in any order) :-

(1) the increasing level of unprovoked violence towards strangers. I would not go out in central Brisbane for a night on the town on my own any more. I don't think it was like that 30 years ago. 

(2) Property developers clear-felling land (I mean clearing every piece of vegetation) and creating instant suburban ghettos, devoid of any character or appeal. Where I used to live in Graceville, they have ruined the character of the place by destroying the old Queensland houses and erecting pseudo-Tuscan villas in their place, usually two or three where there used to be a single dwelling. Also, house prices are pretty steep compared to what I've seen in Spain but that depends a lot on location.

(3) Institutionalised racism - it still exists, at least in Queensland. It is not explicit racism but when you venture into some government departments you come across it. I have first hand experience with the Queensland Department of Transport. I had to sign a non-disclosure agreement when the matter was finally resolved. 

(4) unlike Spain, Australian governments like to slap taxes on the things that people enjoy most, like a beer or a ***. The government likes to lecture us on how to live our lives, hence inane adverts on the TV instructing us to eat our vegetables and stay out of the sun. Also, when you buy an international airfare to get away from the 'nanny state' they tax you horrendously as well. Air travel is not cheap here.

All in all, it hasn't been a bad place to live but I wonder about the future. Queensland is $65billion in debt ($65,000,000,000 !! It looks more horrific in numerals) and they have been shedding public service jobs by the bucketload. The cost of living seems to be spiralling out of control, electricity has nearly doubled in the past five years and will only get worse with the ridiculous carbon-tax introduced this year. I read the other day that mining companies in Queensland are also threatening redundancies due to increased running costs. It's not all beer and skittles here, not any more (well, they haven't taxed skittles yet, unless you count the GST).

Spain or Australia? At least in Spain you can afford to drown your sorrows.


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## .JD (Aug 15, 2012)

@MrSam thanks for the info 'we where' actually thinking of Brisbane... love the last sentence, brilliant!


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## agua642 (May 24, 2009)

Yep booze is cheap & plentiful


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## Sirtravelot (Jul 20, 2011)

MrSam said:


> I've lived in Australia for nearly 30 years and although the quality of life here is good, there are downsides to living in this part of the world: as there are anywhere, I suppose.
> 
> I wouldn't call Aussies self-important as a general rule. They can be annoyingly insular and parochial in outlook which they sometimes mistake for 'patriotism'. But they can usually take a joke and the famous disdain for 'whinging poms' is almost universally good-natured.
> 
> ...



Very interesting points. Last year I was entertaining the thought of trying to jump over to Australia but after some research I found it to be too exhausting for little reward personally. The citizenship alone is a headache...:confused2:


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## Bradyeme (Oct 15, 2011)

Hi there, 

Although originally from Ireland I have lived the last few years in Australia and just moved to Spain 4 months ago. So I might be able to give a perspective a little different to most people here. 

While the cost of living in Australia and taxes are higher than Spain the wages reflect this. If you are looking to move to Brisbane the cost of living is much more like the UK than Mel or Syd. It is an incredible lifestyle for children, safe, clean and very family oriented. A lot of people leave Syd and Mel for Brisbane because of it's laid back way of living, but of course downtown Brissie is vibrant and has lots going on. It's a very healthy, outdoor way of life. You could have a very affordable property here with land and live a superb quality of life with your kids in a great educational system. While much of the wealth is mineral based, it's not the only thing supporting the economy and I believe Australia is still a land of huge opportunities. Yes your GBP is worth much less now but once you are the and earning dollars it becomes irrelevant. The drawbacks are not the wildlife! But the distance from home. My Dad was really sick when I was the and I managed it through Skype etc but it is frustrating and 'hopping' home isn't an option, so I think your wife needs to really think that through and work out how she would feel.

So moving to Spain, I am lucky that I work for a global company so the crises hasn't impacted my wages. But my boyfriend is Spanish and it has an incredible impact on his life and that of his friends and family. It is the biggest difference I see between Spain and Australia - the number of homeless people, unemployed people and those working longer hours for less pay. I was really wrapped in cotton wool in Oz. in saying that it is amazing to be a 2hr flight from my family, I do love being back in Europe with all of the history and culture that Australia doesn't have. And of course the Spanish relaxed way of life and family oriented works really well for me too. 

I hope that helps gives a balanced perspective? It was a really tough decision for me to move from Oz, but moving to Spain was a superb alternative!!!


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## .JD (Aug 15, 2012)

Bradyeme said:


> Hi there,
> 
> Although originally from Ireland I have lived the last few years in Australia and just moved to Spain 4 months ago. So I might be able to give a perspective a little different to most people here.
> 
> ...


Hi, thanks for your insight. I do think we might end up in Brisbane at some point in the future but whilst the kids are young we plan to stay in Spain to be closer to family =)

Are you in Spain now?


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## Guest (Aug 22, 2012)

Hi JD,

This for me is an easy one. It Oz Oz Oz all the way. 

Firstly you need to actually look into the statistics of people dying from spiders, snakes or sharks. I don't think anyone has died for over 30 years from a spider bite. Snakes kill less than one person a year. Sharks about 2 a year. To put it into context more people die in a SINGLE year from horse riding than have probably died in the last 20 years from snakes and sharks combined. So don't worry about that one. 

In my opinion you have hit the nail on the head re homesickness. Regular visits mean regular goodbyes and that's not easy for some people. At least in Oz once you've made it past 6-12 months you're over the worst of it. 

I can't believe you believe the hype about the Aussies not liking the Poms. From my experience they love them. The Aussies are just serious piss takers and love their sport and more times than not it's the English who provide their competition. It's just ribbing. I would go out on a limb here to say that I would be gobsmacked if you were to experience real racism towards you just because you're English. I actually think the opposite would be true. As I pointed out on an earlier post I've found the Spanish to be quite 'stand offish' towards foreigners. That's just been my experience. I feel I see it everyday. 

There is also a massive ex pat community in Oz and the culture is very similar to England (in my opinion) so I can't imagine you would have problems settling in. 

As for what you have said about your boys then they would love it there. Australia provides great parks, pools, beaches and great sporting infrastructure for kids. You won't find kids loitering on corners over there. They'll be flat out enjoying life as it should be for kids. They will integrate much quicker also because there will be no language barrier. They would also have a future there when the finish their education. 

Re ill family members - I don't want to come across as flippant but in my experience you have to live for yourself and your immediate family. Dying and illness exists and more times than not there is nothing you can do about it. I see Australia as being 24 hours away from the UK. That's all. 24 hours.

Sounds like it might be most difficult for your wife. If ye have a young baby then I'm going to guess she'll be off work for a while. Maybe not. I'm just guessing. If that were the case then having less support around her in Oz might be difficult. She may feel more isolated. It would be important for her to embrace Oz and try and make friends quickly to help her settle. 

So back to my original answer. For me it would be Australia ALL the way. A no brainer as they call it. We only live once and need to do what's best for our family. For that reason I have already decided that if and when I have kids then I myself will be on that plane to Oz quicker than you could say "whats that skippie ? theres a man stuck up a tree?"

Hope it all works out for you.


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## Bradyeme (Oct 15, 2011)

.JD said:


> Hi, thanks for your insight. I do think we might end up in Brisbane at some point in the future but whilst the kids are young we plan to stay in Spain to be closer to family =)
> 
> Are you in Spain now?


Yep - arrived in April!


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## MrSam (Jul 31, 2012)

Danny&Claire said:


> Hi JD,
> 
> 
> So back to my original answer. For me it would be Australia ALL the way. A no brainer as they call it. We only live once and need to do what's best for our family. For that reason I have already decided that if and when I have kids then I myself will be on that plane to Oz quicker than you could say "whats that skippie ? theres a man stuck up a tree?"
> ...


Sorry Mate, you have just failed your citizenship test. The correct spelling is "Skippy".


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## MovingOUTofFrance (Nov 1, 2012)

Australia has the worst immigration policies which make no sense....on one hand people with very basic education and work experience can move there easily based on an easy points system and on the other hand if u are looking to invest or do business in Australia and immigrate as an investor then they require a minimum 5 million aud investment. Who the hell would want to invest 5 million in a country dependent on china and india? Australia has no long term future, most people dont want to move there because of the geographic location and Aussie attitudes....they hardly have any population for such a huge country.


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## Goldeneye (Nov 12, 2011)

Sirtravelot said:


> Your plan does sound good!
> 
> I just wanted to give my 2 cents to this thread.
> 
> Personally, I can't say much about Australia because I've never been there, but I have lived in Canada. What does that have to do with anything? Well they are both old colonies, and what my personal experience with Canada sums up to, is basically that it's a country in the middle of nowhere self absorbed with its own existence.


 :clap2: 

:clap2: Yup even when no one else in the world seems to know it exists!!

That said, my Aussie hairdresser moved back to Oz after being here (Canada) for the past 6 years or so, 1 year on, she's now back in Canada.. She paid a fortune to get papers pay vet bills and have her Dog flown out.. All her savings were wiped out with the expensive mistake! 
I have also have friends who moved to Perth _(from the UK)_ they bought a house, a year later they sold the house & moved back to the UK .... within a year back to Perth, again they moved to UK due to Wife missing family and then back to Australia where they finally settled... That's just one of many similar stories I have ~ 
When we emmigrated to Canada we said we would give it 3 years no flip flopping back and forth no matter how bad we thought things were.. True the 1st 6 month are the 'honeymoon period' as you get more involved in 'the way of life' you realise politics and Gvmt B.S. are the same no matter where you are in the world!

Why we want to now move to Europe ~ Culture ... lots if it!! imvho a pot of Yogurt has more living culture in it than Canada!!
Canada's gotta be one of the worlds most boring countries, it's a shopping mall culture, keeping up with the neighbours, from reno's to how manicured the lawn is.. and if that's not your bag .. H'mmm you can always 'bag' a Bear or Bambi the other pastime around these parts!!

So Australia or Spain .. My monies on Spain for culture and proximity to the UK!!

.....
..

..


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## MrSam (Jul 31, 2012)

MovingOUTofFrance said:


> Australia has the worst immigration policies which make no sense....on one hand people with very basic education and work experience can move there easily based on an easy points system and on the other hand if u are looking to invest or do business in Australia and immigrate as an investor then they require a minimum 5 million aud investment. Who the hell would want to invest 5 million in a country dependent on china and india? Australia has no long term future, most people dont want to move there because of the geographic location and Aussie attitudes....they hardly have any population for such a huge country.


What's wrong, mate? Wouldn't they let you in?


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## MovingOUTofFrance (Nov 1, 2012)

Have no desire to even visit Australia, the lack of any culture, class or sophistication just puts me off completely. I guess Australia is ok for certain types of people...certainly not for me. A lot of large indian and chinese companies are buying up australia anyway...the aussies have no money of their own.


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## ronny333 (May 8, 2010)

Hi there! - Having lived in Both country's I'd say its a super tough choice you face.

Culture - the arts and other manifestations of human intellectual achievement regarded collectively - its a funny old thing. 

Even though we don't use it we like to have those options around us or at least easily accessible. 
In Brisbane you DONT have that - but you do have a bit or a lot more of that down in Melbourne.

Spain is a very accessible and well located country, full of all the cultural things us humans like and even a nice foreign language to learn. 

They are both excellent choices but it drove me mad living down in Australia because as good as it is... that's all it is, if that makes sense. 
Once there that's it.. you aint going any place else apart from maybe other Australian city's or maybe New Zealand. 

I think ultimately you are doing the totally right thing and waiting it out in Spain for a bit - give it a few years and if things get brighter in Europe and you see a strong future in which your kids can live prosperously then stay.
However if things continue to look bleak and Australia stays looking stable and in better position for the next decade, then take the plunge down under.

As you have a stable carrier your decision has to be made through your kids and wife, after a couple of years in Spain if they are happy then why move? and if they are not.. then you've nothing to loose trying out Ozzy.

Good Luck!


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## Leper (May 12, 2010)

Easy decision here - Australia gets the vote and (pun intended) by a distance.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

.JD said:


> Hello everyone, I've spent most of the evening reading through your posts and found lots of useful information but still struggling to make a decision.
> 
> I am a 35 year old contract web developer from Cambridge, UK. I am married with 4 children, two boys aged 14 and 12 and two girls aged 4 and 3.5 months.
> 
> ...



hi john

We are in the middle of organising our move to Spain at the end of next year. Our situation is completely different to yours so I am not going to offer any advice.
however there are 2 sections of your post that I would like to comment on.

If your wife was homesick before...... what has changed ( sorry sounds rude, i do not want to know what has changed but food for thought) if nothing then OZ/NZ is a long way away?

Your are torn between the two.. so whilst I would expect and hope that anyone embarking on such a change of life would have concerns and the jitters I think you have to sit and decide what is was about Oz that first kit your fire and desire to move.. because if you are now considering spain are you ready for oz.

Hands up I have not read whole thread so apologies if I have repeated or ignored any other comments

Good Luck


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## Christine10 (Sep 8, 2010)

Dear John,

I have just joined Expat Forum again and wonder what you have decided to do.

Brisbane is a lovely city, and where I live, on the Sunshine Coast, there are great amenities and wonderful beach as well as mountain/village lifestye!

I too have lived in Spain, Malaga, a long time ago, and although it is certainly closer to the UK, it's just a day or so trip between there and Australia, really.

Come over to Buderim for a holiday soon, you will soon see where you would have the best life for you and your children.

Best wishes,
Christine, /SNIP/


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Christine10 said:


> Dear John,
> 
> I have just joined Expat Forum again and wonder what you have decided to do.


He decided on a move to Spain in the end according to later posts.
I was going to give my two penneths worth of why we chose Spain over going back to Oz but looks as though the decision was made pretty quickly after this thread was started.


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## clairerach11 (Aug 26, 2014)

Hi there,

I moved to spain in may and went to Australia for a month in March. I much prefer spain... Australia is so far away.. you cant jump on a flight for two hours and be in a different country. another thing I would say is how expensive I found Australia. Spain is so laid back compared to there and the UK. its no hassle. another language under your childrens belt can only be beneficial.. but it is down to personal preference something you will need to think long and hard about.


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## Nignoy (Jun 4, 2010)

We have just left Queensland to live in spain, purely to be nearer to elderly relatives of my wife in uk, having to fly to uk from aus 4 times in 16 months can certainly play havoc with the budget, while we do love aus and we will eventually return, but when the rose-coloured glasses are off, and kangaroo,s are just another dent in the car,Brisbane realestate is overpriced, the town is over crowded and under developed and prone to flooding once or twice a year, we lived on bribie Island for our first 10 years, an island paradise ,golden beaches ,tame dolphins, Dugongs, and Whale watching on surfside ,in 2001 bribie ,caboolture area had a population of 55000, in 2014 population over 3/4 of a million,and realestate prices through the roof, mostly seasonal employment, highest crime rate in eastern Australia, google murders in bribie caboolture area,practically no policing after 20.00hrs, if you are opening a business with Australian employees , prepare for inability to work Fridays and Mondays, and 50% of labour force off sick every month,but there again the sun does shine 10 months of the year!!


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## ronny333 (May 8, 2010)

Nignoy - If you don't mind me asking which town in Spain are you in to be comparing your experiences with Brisbane?
I'm glad we didn't stay down in Oz for many reasons but the only regret would be as the country was growing so well had we opened a company we could have done pretty well out of it.
However I love Latin culture SO much that our current choice is satisfying. 
We lived on the gold coast in 2006 and I liked it but heard its chanced a LOT now though..apparently much of it is owned by rich Chinese?


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## buble (Apr 29, 2011)

My wife's daughter and family live in Sydney. So as we neared retirement, we thought that we would move down there. After lots of research (watching 'Wanted Down Under' etc. ), we had a five week trip down there to get a feel of the place.
To be quite honest, I found the 'Wanna be America' and the continual 'Australia is the best place in the world to live', attitude, to be vulgar and boring! We went back for three months last year, to reassess the situation, and found that we still felt the same.
At this moment in time, Australia is facing an economic crisis. It has mostly a service industry and very little manufacturing. It's mining industry is going 'down the pan', losing it's export market to BRICS (Brazil, Russia, India and China), who have got together and are now concentrating on mining in South Africa!!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

buble said:


> My wife's daughter and family live in Sydney. So as we neared retirement, we thought that we would move down there. After lots of research (watching 'Wanted Down Under' etc. ), we had a five week trip down there to get a feel of the place.
> To be quite honest, I found the 'Wanna be America' and the continual 'Australia is the best place in the world to live', attitude, to be vulgar and boring! We went back for three months last year, to reassess the situation, and found that we still felt the same.
> At this moment in time, Australia is facing an economic crisis. It has mostly a service industry and very little manufacturing. It's mining industry is going 'down the pan', losing it's export market to BRICS (Brazil, Russia, India and China), who have got together and are now concentrating on mining in South Africa!!


BRICS (Brazil, Russia, India and China) And *South Africa

*From an acronym coined by the economist Jim O'Neill for the leaders of the developing countries - Brazil, Russia, India and China - to a powerful bloc, the Brics have come a long way in the last decade.
For starters, they were joined by South Africa, adding the final 'S' to the original Bric.


BBC News - How solid are the Brics nations? What you need to know


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## buble (Apr 29, 2011)

Pesky Wesky said:


> BRICS (Brazil, Russia, India and China) And *South Africa
> 
> *From an acronym coined by the economist Jim O'Neill for the leaders of the developing countries - Brazil, Russia, India and China - to a powerful bloc, the Brics have come a long way in the last decade.
> For starters, they were joined by South Africa, adding the final 'S' to the original Bric.
> ...


Yes you are quite right, but when I first became interested in it, it was just the four of them. I called it BRICS in my post, and from habit only included those four.
Never the less, those in Oz. are starting to 'feel the pinch'. I'm convinced that it spells the 'Death Nell' for Australia's economy!


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

I have a friend who's working out there (Oz) at the moment, he started in Brisbane and later moved to Perth. In a professional environment he says he's treading on egg shells daily. Any criticism about methods and their results is an affront to the entire Australian culture and way of life, apparently.

Which is a pity, because you spend a considerable amount of time at work and it could have provided a nice balance. A balance against the constant, never-ending "banter", "piss-taking", call it what you will, that gradually grinds you down until you just spend your days wanting to respond with a pleasant, jovial, delivered-with-a-smile.... "oh do f**k off".

Live in Australia. It would be like a prison sentence. Which I do believe, was actually the point.


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## Nignoy (Jun 4, 2010)

ronny333 said:


> Nignoy - If you don't mind me asking which town in Spain are you in to be comparing your experiences with Brisbane?
> I'm glad we didn't stay down in Oz for many reasons but the only regret would be as the country was growing so well had we opened a company we could have done pretty well out of it.
> However I love Latin culture SO much that our current choice is satisfying.
> We lived on the gold coast in 2006 and I liked it but heard its chanced a LOT now though..apparently much of it is owned by rich Chinese?


I am not comparing brissie to any Spanish town,the gold coast cannot be really classed as typical Australia can it??that's like calling the tourist areas of Benidorm typically Spanish, Chinese and japanese are the largest land owners on the eastern coast,we moved in land to the darling downs , to escape the building plague gone nuts, in 2000the building boom hit Toowoomba a picturesque town that straddles the great dividing range, but also a town well known for its heavy rainfall in highsummer, over the following 10 years all along a 30km stretch of the range , woods and scrub were cleared waterways and creek beds were altered to make the way for 1000,s of new housing, I think it was jan 2011 that nature fought back, after 24 hours of tropical rainstorms the topsoil could not absorb any more water , so the main roads became raging rivers, cars, trucks and houses were swept away an area larger than Germany was flooded for weeks, many people died,100 kms southwest of Toowoomba lies the Brisbane river valley and the citythe rest is history, we hope residential development in spain does not go that far,so until we outlive the rellies guardamar will suit us fine


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Nignoy said:


> brissie


And that's another thing you have to put up with. Abbreviations the same length and sometimes longer, and with more syllables, than the original word.

And all spoken with an intonation at the end which is not the slightest bit jarring. Just keep telling yourself that, not the slightest bit jarring, not the sli.......


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## ronny333 (May 8, 2010)

Nignoy said:


> I am not comparing brissie to any Spanish town,the gold coast cannot be really classed as typical Australia can it??that's like calling the tourist areas of Benidorm typically Spanish, Chinese and japanese are the largest land owners on the eastern coast,we moved in land to the darling downs , to escape the building plague gone nuts, in 2000the building boom hit Toowoomba a picturesque town that straddles the great dividing range, but also a town well known for its heavy rainfall in highsummer, over the following 10 years all along a 30km stretch of the range , woods and scrub were cleared waterways and creek beds were altered to make the way for 1000,s of new housing, I think it was jan 2011 that nature fought back, after 24 hours of tropical rainstorms the topsoil could not absorb any more water , so the main roads became raging rivers, cars, trucks and houses were swept away an area larger than Germany was flooded for weeks, many people died,100 kms southwest of Toowoomba lies the Brisbane river valley and the citythe rest is history, we hope residential development in spain does not go that far,so until we outlive the rellies guardamar will suit us fine


Yeah Gold coast isn't typical Australia, it was more like a little Miami when I lived there.. actually I really liked it.. but that was a long time ago now.. heard its mega pricey these days. 
Do you mean Guardamar in Alicante? nice to be by the coast! whats the cost of living like compared to Oz? my estimate would be at least 1 third cheaper to live Spain?


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## Nignoy (Jun 4, 2010)

ronny333 said:


> Yeah Gold coast isn't typical Australia, it was more like a little Miami when I lived there.. actually I really liked it.. but that was a long time ago now.. heard its mega pricey these days.
> Do you mean Guardamar in Alicante? nice to be by the coast! whats the cost of living like compared to Oz? my estimate would be at least 1 third cheaper to live Spain?


Yes I do mean Guardamar near Alicante, cost of living looks to be lower in spain but only time will tell, one of readers took umbrage at my use of the abbreviated version of Brisbane, but it is the Australian way to abbreviate or *******ise for want of a better word names ,nouns and verbs, but what that has to do with this thread I don't knowNo doubt when I learn Spanish, I will also 

learn a few abbreviations


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

buble said:


> Yes you are quite right, but when I first became interested in it, it was just the four of them. I called it BRICS in my post, and from habit only included those four.
> Never the less, those in Oz. are starting to 'feel the pinch'. I'm convinced that it spells the 'Death Nell' for Australia's economy!


Yes, I didn't want to sound know it all, it's just that last year I was giving (English) class to a student doing International Relations and I leant a lot about all those acronyms


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## alancorner (Jul 10, 2014)

Hi Jd
I live in Western Australia near Perth and have done for 10 years coming from New Zealand I am retired but my wife is in the health industry. The cost of living here is very very high, I am comparing it to the UK as we do visit the UK. Ten years ago electricity, gas, petrol were some of the cheapest in the `western world` now we are one of the most expensive in the world, now that is good if you are earning a good salary and wages here are good a nurse for instance will earn around $70,000 (40,000GBP) but you are a long way from anywhere, Perth is the most isolated capital city in the world we are closer to Singapore than Sydney. The climate is excellent hot summers warm winters. The aussies give the `poms` (English) a lot of stick but mostly in good fun and they are reminded that if it was not for `the poms` they would not exist!!! So guess where we are retiring to? yes your right Spain.


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## maxd (Mar 22, 2009)

I was born in OZ, have citizenship and tried going back several times in my 20's, it never worked out. The place feels like a Hollywood set that has was erected 20 years ago 

The big thing is with the US or OZ is the time zone difference with you friends and family back home, you may as well forget it as it is always a wrong time to call. You live in isolation from the rest of the world 

The government has socialist tenancies whoever is in power and they slap taxes on everything, I think that is true to this day. They have a house price bubble that is going to explode one of these days, then it might be a better place to visit.

That said beaches are nice, great weather but ultimately not for me. I am getting my kids Aussie passports just in case so they have that option later in life but I think I will spend the rest of my days in Europe.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

I would agree with some of what has been said. The cost of living is horrendous these days in Australia and I also agree with the housing bubble. I do hope it bursts but even if it does it probably wont suffer anywhere as near as Spain has. I think the whole economy is built of shakey foundations and just maybe when it does finally go it may become affordable to live once again. I don't know what it says about that when you have to move to Spain to get ahead of the curve.
The government is and has been equally horrendous the past few decades and are seemingly getting worse.

With that said though if you are above the bread line you will have a good income you should be able to enjoy a relatively comfortable life, many though don't have that luxury.
It's a great country and hopefully when the kids are older we may go back there plus I prefer the Australian schooling system, the lifestyle anywhere will be what you make of it but there are simply little things I can do in Australia that I can't do in Europe. Not the end of the world but it would be nice for the kids to enjoy some of the things I did as a child.

I'm happy living overseas and there is no burning desire to go back to live but I wouldn't be opposed to it either. I do miss my family though and it is hard for them, as it has been mentioned it's a long way away so not easy at times.


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## Goldeneye (Nov 12, 2011)

Horlics said:


> I have a friend who's working out there (Oz) at the moment, he started in Brisbane and later moved to Perth. In a professional environment he says he's treading on egg shells daily. Any criticism about methods and their results is an affront to the entire Australian culture and way of life, apparently.
> Live in Australia. It would be like a prison sentence. Which I do believe, was actually the point.


Are you sure you are talking about Australia and not Canada here?...... This is sounding awfully familiar..

After one of our co-workers asked us why we cooked our own Indian food... We got our first "Well, why don't you B..ugger off back to your own Country" 

My crime was that I had responded with "In Victoria we only have 3 and none of them are any good" The fact that said restaurant was in their town had the effect that I was s lagging them off personally...

Our co-workers didn't want to hear that we had a benchmark to go by.. After a while you just got used to Shutting the #$%^ up unless it was positive.. Seemingly only those with a Canadian accent are allowed any form of negative or constructive opinion...


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## angkag (Oct 29, 2013)

We just moved to Spain, and as it happens, also looked at Brisbane, spending a month there.

We found Australia to be a great place, but decided on Spain mainly as Australia is much more expensive than here, but also the advantage of the second language for the kids in the long run.

Our kids are very sporty, and Australia is great for kids sport, but so is Spain. We are in Sotogrande and even the gardener here has a 3 handicap in golf. Our eldest is nuts on football, and Spain won out as far as football, and our experience to date (just 3 weeks here now) has been great for him as the local training and standard is superb (we're talking 8 year-old level here).

And yes, personally I didn't like having to worry about spiders and stuff, so Spain wins on that front. I lived in Central America and got tired of scorpions and poisonous snakes and never wanted to have to think about that again. I never saw any spiders in Brisbane, but we had black widow cobwebs in the garden, so they were lurking somewhere, so never felt entirely comfortable going to the loo without looking under the lid each time (which is also where the central american scorpions kept showing up in the house).

The negatives on Spain are the bureacracy, but just expect it and then expectations are managed, and the economy is pretty dire. The Australian economy is far healthier, but that translates to a more expensive place to live.

As for crime, Spain seems no worse than any other European country (or Australia), and just take the usual precautions and you should be fine. It seems so far that crime is more common in some areas than others, eg Malaga seems to get more than Sotogrande where we live, but thats just judging from the papers and local chit-chat.

But at the end of the day, a very personal decision based on all factors in play, so depends on your priorities. eg we had no family ties to consider, and thast usually one of the main drivers.


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## climear (Jun 7, 2014)

We have been living in Perth for the past 2 and a half years and I have to agree with alot of what BRADYEME has said. We are moving to south of Spain next year with our 9 and 6 year old kids. The main reason for us moving is to be nearer our families. We travelled home last Christmas, flights alone AU$8000, plus car hire plus spending money - approx $15k in total. We're still paying that off and I know if we stay here, we could only afford to go home once every 2 years. So really most of our savings would go on travelling home. Doesn't make any sense.

Outside of that, while Perth is a nice, clean, pretty safe city, it is VERY expensive, and while wages are high, cost of living is extremely high (rent, eating out, drink) - I can see why most people stay home and have BBQs in summer - just tooooo expensive to socialise. 

I personally believe that the people who make Australia their home are those with no family at home or are not close to their family. For us, we miss seeing our families, and while we might at times be delighted to be away from them, they're family at the end of the day and its nice to be around for the special times like Christmas, birthdays, weddings, etc. 

As someone said in an earlier post, because Australia is a very "new" country, it doesn't have the same character and community feeling like cities and towns in Europe have. Perth is nice, but every suburb is the same, with the same shops, same fast food outlets, same layout of streets. Gets a bit boring after a while. 

We're looking forward to start exploring Europe from Spain for a fraction of the cost and still getting home to see our family more.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

climear said:


> We have been living in Perth for the past 2 and a half years and I have to agree with alot of what BRADYEME has said. We are moving to south of Spain next year with our 9 and 6 year old kids. The main reason for us moving is to be nearer our families. We travelled home last Christmas, flights alone AU$8000, plus car hire plus spending money - approx $15k in total. We're still paying that off and I know if we stay here, we could only afford to go home once every 2 years. So really most of our savings would go on travelling home. Doesn't make any sense.
> 
> Outside of that, while Perth is a nice, clean, pretty safe city, it is VERY expensive, and while wages are high, cost of living is extremely high (rent, eating out, drink) - I can see why most people stay home and have BBQs in summer - just tooooo expensive to socialise.
> 
> ...


I think you raise a whole new issue in your post and that isue is "home".

You may have something in that people who make Australia/ somewhere abroad their home are those who don't have or are not close to their family. On the other hand if you always think of your country of origin as home will you ever really settle in another country?

At the end of your post to talk about living in Spain, but going "home" to visit family...


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## climear (Jun 7, 2014)

Yes you are right - but "home" will always be "home" for me because that's where I was born and bred. I suppose I hope to be successful in having 2 homes !!! At least they will be quite near each other LOL


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