# Moving soon to Italy....not sure yet where to go......



## xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxenjoylife

any suggestions?


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## Joppa

enjoylife said:


> any suggestions?


You need to provide more information.
If someone asked you, "I'm moving to Spain soon. Any advice about location?", what would you say?

Tell us what you are looking for in Italy. Is it long term (several years) or short term (a few months)? Do you need to work, and what kind of work are you seeking? Do you speak fluent Italian, or do you try to get by in English, Spanish or another language you know? Do you want city or countryside, north or south, near the sea or inland, what is your budget? Are you a culture vulture (admittedly historical sites and buildings are never far away wherever you are in Italy) or do you want contemporary entertainment and access to good shops?

Please help us to help you!


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## xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxenjoylife

thanks Joppa for your kind reply,

acutally i am relocating to Italy.....i have been living there many years ago in Toscany....
if i return it is for good and i do speak italian fluent.....
i am looking for a one bedroom appartment to buy and close to the sea and airport.....

i like liguria but it is pretty expensive and the condos are mostly in very bad shape.....
culture is also important to me and i like a place which is cosmopolitain.......

difficult isn t it?


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## MarkProsser

*Did You Move Back?*

I've just been checking out accomodation in Milan. Phew..the prices are steep! Better though if I look further out of the city. Would be good to connect. We move at the end of the month. Best wishes, Mark


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## Leti91

Hi mark did u find an accommodation in Milan or near the city?

Sent from my iPhone using ExpatForum


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## MarkProsser

*Accommodation*



Leti91 said:


> Hi mark did u find an accommodation in Milan or near the city?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ExpatForum


Yes, got a great house in Brunate over looking Como - found a helpful agent who speaks pretty good English..if anyone is looking in this area I can give you his contact details.


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## MaggieBuchardt

Hi again,
This is my second post, where I will try to be more informative, so I can get adequate help. I introduced myself and my husband at the other thread, but here again- a couple in their forties, looking to spend 5-6 months each year in Italy- those would be the winter months. I am EU citizen- from Bulgaria, my husband is from Norway, so I believe we will have no problems with documents. We are not looking fr jobs, we are planning to use our savings. We have our own business- a real estate agency and are also freelance translators and we are doing quite well in Bulgaria, but of course the difference in income between Bulgaria and Italy does exist. I am calculating to spend about 2000 euro a month and was wondering if it will be enough for a normal living in the south of Italy. We had Liguria on our minds, but I read it is quite expensive there. We would like to be near the sea, in a small town, or big village. We need a 1BR apartment, have been considering the area of Basilicata or Calabria also, but can't seem to find web sites, where we can check prices for long term rentals.

Any information would be gladly appreciated.

P.S. We are not stuck on those exact areas and are waiting for suggestions.


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## NickZ

Obviously it depends on your lifestyle. But €2K a month is far more then the average family in either of those region spends. 

Remember a long term rental is four years. If you're looking to spend only six months then I'd look at the vacation rentals. Maybe somebody would rent one to you. It's off season.


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## MarkProsser

*Property Rentals in Italy*



MaggieBuchardt said:


> Hi again,
> This is my second post, where I will try to be more informative, so I can get adequate help. I introduced myself and my husband at the other thread, but here again- a couple in their forties, looking to spend 5-6 months each year in Italy- those would be the winter months. I am EU citizen- from Bulgaria, my husband is from Norway, so I believe we will have no problems with documents. We are not looking fr jobs, we are planning to use our savings. We have our own business- a real estate agency and are also freelance translators and we are doing quite well in Bulgaria, but of course the difference in income between Bulgaria and Italy does exist. I am calculating to spend about 2000 euro a month and was wondering if it will be enough for a normal living in the south of Italy. We had Liguria on our minds, but I read it is quite expensive there. We would like to be near the sea, in a small town, or big village. We need a 1BR apartment, have been considering the area of Basilicata or Calabria also, but can't seem to find web sites, where we can check prices for long term rentals.
> 
> Any information would be gladly appreciated.
> 
> P.S. We are not stuck on those exact areas and are waiting for suggestions.


Maggie, you need to bear in mind that any long term lease seems to be standardised as four years, mine has a 6 month break clause with automatic extension at the end with annual rental rising in line with the equivalent of the UK RPI. (Retail Price Index).

Here in Milan, 1 bedroom apartments are all around 900 euros monthly and you need to bear in mind that landlords typically require a 3 month security deposit and the agent seems to expect to charge a fee equal to one months rent. So taking a lease at 900 euros a month will require a down payment of 5 x 900 or 4500 euros and then 900 monthly. You will have your utility bills on top of that and gas and electricity is expensive for Europe.

If you stay in Italy for more than 183 days a year you are considered an Italian resident for tax purposes which you need to bear in mind...

...and you will need a Codice Fiscale before anyone will grant you a long term lease - you have to get one from a local Agenzia della Entrata....

So maybe a holiday let might be best????

Hope that is helpful - just scour the internet for property for affitto (rental) Italy for ideas..

Best wishes, Mark


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## NickZ

MarkProsser said:


> If you stay in Italy for more than 183 days a year you are considered an Italian resident for tax purposes which you need to bear in mind...
> 
> k



That's not true. The Italian tax code sets out three tests.

Registered in the anagrafe

Centre of life

Normal domicile. 

If you pass any of the three tests for the majority of the year you're tax resident. There is no requirement to actually be in Italy. Not in law not in case law.

Memory tells me the 183 test is one of the last tie breakers in the standard double taxation treaty. But I can't imagine too many people get past all the other tie breakers first.


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## MarkProsser

*Tax Residency*



NickZ said:


> That's not true. The Italian tax code sets out three tests.
> 
> Registered in the anagrafe
> 
> Centre of life
> 
> Normal domicile.
> 
> If you pass any of the three tests for the majority of the year you're tax resident. There is no requirement to actually be in Italy. Not in law not in case law.
> 
> Memory tells me the 183 test is one of the last tie breakers in the standard double taxation treaty. But I can't imagine too many people get past all the other tie breakers first.


Thanks Nick, I have to say this is an area I am researching now - finding definitive answers on Italian Tax Matters is not easy - I refer to one thread I found:

"Italy Income Tax for an Individual

An individual is liable for tax on his income as an employee and on income as a self-employed person. Tax will be payable on income earned in Italy and overseas by an individual who meets the test of a "permanent resident" of Italy. A foreign resident who is employed in Italy pays tax only on income earned in Italy.

One of two tests must be passed to be considered an Italian resident: a life centered in Italy, or being registered in the Population Registry as living more than 183 days a year in Italy. 

It is important to point out as regards taxable income from outside Italy, that a "tax credit" is granted for tax deducted outside Italy. In the case of income from a salary, the employer is obligated to deduct the amount of tax payable on a monthly basis. A self-employed person must prepay income tax that will be offset on filing an annual return. The advance payment is determined on the basis of the return made for the previous year. In the event of a new business, the advance will be calculated on the basis of estimates made by the owner of the business."

I am happy to receive more complete information and reference material if you have access.

Many thanks, Mark


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## MaggieBuchardt

Thank you all for your fast and informative answers. It seems I have to read a bit more to figure out how to make the temporary move as painless (financially and tax wise) as possible. I sure don't want to pay taxes in Italy just yet, so maybe we will have to stay shorter that 183 days. Didn't know about the 4-year rental rule, information is much appreciated. I have another question-how are the winters in the south of Italy-Calabria, Basilicata ? Is it rainy all the winter and gray, do we need the heating all the time, does it snow? I have some fair idea, but opinions do vary...


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## NickZ

MarkProsser said:


> Thanks Nick, I have to say this is an area I am researching now - finding definitive answers on Italian Tax Matters is not easy - I refer to one thread I found:
> 
> 
> 
> One of two tests must be passed to be considered an Italian resident: a life centered in Italy, or being registered in the Population Registry as living more than 183 days a year in Italy.



Outside of there being three tests there is nothing wrong with the above. Except being in the registry (anagrafe) doesn't mean you're in Italy. In theory you could sign up Jan 2nd then go on a worldwide cruise. You'd still be on the list if you didn't cancel it.

http://www.pwc.com/us/en/hr-international-assignment-services/assets/italy-folio.pdf

That's in English pg 4.

For obvious reasons most documents discussing this are in Italian.


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## NickZ

MaggieBuchardt said:


> Thank you all for your fast and informative answers. It seems I have to read a bit more to figure out how to make the temporary move as painless (financially and tax wise) as possible. I sure don't want to pay taxes in Italy just yet, so maybe we will have to stay shorter that 183 days. Didn't know about the 4-year rental rule, information is much appreciated. I have another question-how are the winters in the south of Italy-Calabria, Basilicata ? Is it rainy all the winter and gray, do we need the heating all the time, does it snow? I have some fair idea, but opinions do vary...


Simple answer is the lower the altitude the warmer. 

Potenza (Italia) - Wikipedia

That's Potenza Brrr 

Winter is the rainy season. Some years it's worse then others. Last year was horrid.


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## MarkProsser

*Italy Tax*



NickZ said:


> Outside of there being three tests there is nothing wrong with the above. Except being in the registry (anagrafe) doesn't mean you're in Italy. In theory you could sign up Jan 2nd then go on a worldwide cruise. You'd still be on the list if you didn't cancel it.
> 
> http://www.pwc.com/us/en/hr-international-assignment-services/assets/italy-folio.pdf
> 
> That's in English pg 4.
> 
> For obvious reasons most documents discussing this are in Italian.


thanks Nick, hadn't found that PWC doc - very handy - much appreciated. You with PWC?
Best wishes, Mark


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## NickZ

Price Waterhouse Coopers. One of the worlds largest accounting firms.


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## MarkProsser

*Pwc*



NickZ said:


> Price Waterhouse Coopers. One of the worlds largest accounting firms.


At which office are you based?


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## godgie

Maggie,
I may have an idea for you re:your long term rental request.Phine me on 0035318428662 at pm time if you wish 
john fm dublin


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## MaggieBuchardt

Thanks John, will call you in the afternoon


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