# What Gives?



## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

Can someone please explain the Spanish, or perhaps it is restricted solely to the Catalans mentality to me.

Today whilst out walking my 4 dogs, 2 of whom are big beggars to say the least whilst the other 2 are medium sized, a group of runners came bounding round the corner.
I called my dogs to me, placing the big ones on the lead and collecting the medium dogs close at hand, they all sat, though one of my big dogs, the youngest, was grumbling about these 3 men bearing down on me as if they meant me harm.

As the guys passed they all hissed and shouted what sounded like "kek" at my dogs the likes of which sounded pretty aggresive in manner. Had I not got my boys and girl under control I am sure it could well have provoked a reaction, the kind which could have ended in tears if my dogs were not so well behaved.

Is this something peculiar to my area of Spain, these guys were not the first to do this to my dogs and I doubt they will be the last, but I fail to understand the mentality of it. To my mind they are goading the dogs. 

The other thing I do not understand is why when faced with dogs all the women we meet out on our walks start screaming as if their skirts were on fire and leg it down the road at great speed, when my dogs have done nothing to them. Honestly the sight of Carmen bolting down the road as fast as her little legs can carry her whilst screaming as if the devil is after her is a little disturbing. 

Do they not teach folk hereabouts that making a noise that is aggresive in sound and or running off at great speed is not the best way to make friends with a dog.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

JoCatalunya said:


> Can someone please explain the Spanish, or perhaps it is restricted solely to the Catalans mentality to me.
> 
> Today whilst out walking my 4 dogs, 2 of whom are big beggars to say the least whilst the other 2 are medium sized, a group of runners came bounding round the corner.
> I called my dogs to me, placing the big ones on the lead and collecting the medium dogs close at hand, they all sat, though one of my big dogs, the youngest, was grumbling about these 3 men bearing down on me as if they meant me harm.
> ...


you say two of them are big?


are they then perhaps considered 'dangerous' & of a size or breed as to be on the dangerous dogs list?

(even if they are as soft as butter)

perhaps the people are just concerned that they should be muzzled?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

The Spanish generally know how dogs behave - run from a dog and it'll chase you. So unless you have a reputation of being unable to control your dogs or your dogs are looking menacing???? I cant imagine why they'd behave like that. Know one runs from me when I walk mine?!? Nor do I run from other peoples dogs???

One things for sure, if thats the sort of reaction you're getting then you shouldnt be taking them out in public places - if nothing else if your dogs do attack or bite anyone, they'll be put down and you'll be prosecuted, regardless of whose fault it might be
Jo xxx


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

I walk my dogs very early in the morning and late at night when there is usually no one around I live in the campo and am the only person actually living on this mountain, the only people who come up here usually are my neighbours and they know the dogs and don't react this way.
The people I am referring to are casual visitors in the main. 
Yes my big dogs are I guess what folk would class as being 'Dangerous dogs,' one is a Boxer and one is a Doberman (puppy), the other 2 are Andalucian Terriers, (bit like a Jack Russell but bigger). 
All are extremely well behaved and my older dogs have control collars on so I can if necessary control them far better off the lead than most folk can control their dogs on a lead. 
My dogs have never chased anyone, have never growled at anyone, they merely bark a warning, run to my side and sit by me to protect me, yet the few people who don't know them who come onto the mountain create and goad my dogs.
By the way, I muzzle my dogs when out in public places, ie the village or town when visiting the vet, however, when on my own land (10 acres)or in a remote area I do not have them muzzled for obvious reasons, they can't protect me if they are so hindered.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

JoCatalunya said:


> Can someone please explain the Spanish, or perhaps it is restricted solely to the Catalans mentality to me.
> 
> Today whilst out walking my 4 dogs, 2 of whom are big beggars to say the least whilst the other 2 are medium sized, a group of runners came bounding round the corner.
> I called my dogs to me, placing the big ones on the lead and collecting the medium dogs close at hand, they all sat, though one of my big dogs, the youngest, was grumbling about these 3 men bearing down on me as if they meant me harm.
> ...


Nothing gives Jocatalunya...
If you're in a public space your dogs should be on a lead, so you could be fined.

A little understanding goes a long way. Not all people like dogs or know what to do around them, and why should they? 

I would suggest that if a number of people look like they are scared, run away or scream it's because they're not comfortable with your dogs being off the lead. This could lead to an official complaint and you being fined. However, more than money, I would have thought the desire to get on with people living in the area, and hopefully not to scare them off would perhaps motivate you to put the dogs on a lead.

Big dogs can be included in the dangerous dogs category due to their size more than temperement. This is your responsibility to find out about. The local vet will be able to tell you if your dogs come under this category or police/ guardia civil / Mossos


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

I appreciate what you say Pesky and take it in, my dogs are not a menace by any stretch of the imagination, the 2 big dog breeds are to be found on the dangerous dogs register, Boxer and Doberman. As I have said my neighbours all know the dogs and have never said a word to them. 
My problem is with strangers and not when they are off the lead but when I have my dogs safely on the lead, it is almost as if they wish to provoke the dog or something. It has even happened when I was walking into the Vets, my puppy is only 4 and a half months old, but he was muzzled and this man started 'kek-ing' at my pup as if there was no tomorrow. 
What the heck does "kek" mean, it isnt 'Que' that they are saying or 'Caya' I speak Spanish reasonably well but don't know this word so I looked it up in both my Spanish and Catalan dictionary but cannot find it.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

It sounds like they are trying to goad your dogs - safe in the knowledge that they are on leads. Some Spanish like to goad dogs and see dogs being aggressive and it starts young.

We have small cute dogs and many young children have come up to them and pet them which is usually OK but I'm very careful. 

On more than one occasion the kids have started to hit them and pull their ears and fur and on one occasion kick them. Mum and Dad seem to think this behaviour is acceptable - even cute. The dogs obviously react (luckily without dire consequences so far). Mum and Dad then change their attitude somewhat.

I've also noticed that dogs aggression to other dogs is often a source of great amusement where in the UK it would worry or annoy folk.

I hate national stereotyping but some Spanish people's attitude to animals is disappointing.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

JoCatalunya said:


> I appreciate what you say Pesky and take it in, my dogs are not a menace by any stretch of the imagination, the 2 big dog breeds are to be found on the dangerous dogs register, Boxer and Doberman. As I have said my neighbours all know the dogs and have never said a word to them.
> My problem is with strangers and not when they are off the lead but when I have my dogs safely on the lead, it is almost as if they wish to provoke the dog or something. It has even happened when I was walking into the Vets, my puppy is only 4 and a half months old, but he was muzzled and this man started 'kek-ing' at my pup as if there was no tomorrow.
> What the heck does "kek" mean, it isnt 'Que' that they are saying or 'Caya' I speak Spanish reasonably well but don't know this word so I looked it up in both my Spanish and Catalan dictionary but cannot find it.


I've got no idea.

Jimenato seems to think you're right and they are being unkind to the dogs.

From what I've heard on the forum there is a lot of cruelty to dogs in parts of Spain. Luckily I've not come across it in the parts of Spain I know.


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

Ah so it isnt just a Catalan thing. Well that is something. However, I worry that one day my dogs will react and trust me my big dogs are not cute little furry things in the least. 

I have them for the love of dogs first and foremost but also to dissuade thieves from thinking my home is ripe for invading and my possessions theirs for the taking.

The police hereabouts are worse than useless, they won't come out even when you are begging them for help because your home is being invaded with you in it. So dogs are a necessity in my opinion. That or a shotgun.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

JoCatalunya said:


> Ah so it isnt just a Catalan thing. Well that is something. However, I worry that one day my dogs will react and trust me my big dogs are not cute little furry things in the least.
> 
> I have them for the love of dogs first and foremost but also to dissuade thieves from thinking my home is ripe for invading and my possessions theirs for the taking.
> 
> The police hereabouts are worse than useless, they won't come out even when you are begging them for help because your home is being invaded with you in it. So dogs are a necessity in my opinion. That or a shotgun.


well if you're worried about how they would react, keep them muzzled in public, as the law says you should


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

xabiachica said:


> well if you're worried about how they would react, keep them muzzled in public, as the law says you should


Even on my own land????

It has happened there too.

My land is not public domain, it is private.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Maybe the runners have had previous experience of being chased by dogs and were just trying to deter yours? Were they off the lead when the runners first saw them?

Next time it happens, why not just ask them what it means?


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## Spanky McSpank (Aug 27, 2009)

I can't imagine it's easy to control 4 dogs. The runners must feel threatened rightly or wrongly to react.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

JoCatalunya said:


> Even on my own land????
> 
> It has happened there too.
> 
> My land is not public domain, it is private.


so these people are on your land?

one of the requirements of having a license for a dog on the 'dangerous list' is that the property it is kept on must be surrounded by a 2 metre high barrier


how are these people getting past that - and if they are, why are you not reporting them for trespssing


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> well if you're worried about how they would react, keep them muzzled in public, as the law says you should


But JoCatalunya has pointed out that she's on her own land . I must admit that even my spanish ,dog owning , neighbours. Who all have dogs that could be classed as 'dangerous' as they are over 25kgs, shy away from my dogs when they come to my house , & one reacts as though she's being attacked when they look at her ! & this is a person whose dog regularly brings down cyclists & motorcyclists !! In town itself you quite regularly see large dogs being walked by Spanish, all without muzzles.
They could be saying !vete! ,or a Catalan equivalent . As in go away !


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

I muzzle my dogs when out in public.

What kind of dog do you have?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

gus-lopez said:


> But JoCatalunya has pointed out that she's on her own land . I must admit that even my spanish ,dog owning , neighbours. Who all have dogs that could be classed as 'dangerous' as they are over 25kgs, shy away from my dogs when they come to my house , & one reacts as though she's being attacked when they look at her ! & this is a person whose dog regularly brings down cyclists & motorcyclists !! In town itself you quite regularly see large dogs being walked by Spanish, all without muzzles.
> They could be saying !vete! ,or a Catalan equivalent . As in go away !


yes, I agree, if they are on her own land that is a different matter - but why would she allow these people onto her land


maybe she should ask them what they are doing there & let the dogs at 'em





only joking about the last bit, obviously


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

There's definitely something confusing here. The problem as stated by JoCatalunya her(?) self is with strangers. Yet on public land the OP states that the dogs are on leads. So who are the strangers on her land, why are they there? Is this really a land issue and not a dog issue?


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

gus-lopez said:


> But JoCatalunya has pointed out that she's on her own land . I must admit that even my spanish ,dog owning , neighbours. Who all have dogs that could be classed as 'dangerous' as they are over 25kgs, shy away from my dogs when they come to my house , & one reacts as though she's being attacked when they look at her ! & this is a person whose dog regularly brings down cyclists & motorcyclists !! In town itself you quite regularly see large dogs being walked by Spanish, all without muzzles.
> They could be saying !vete! ,or a Catalan equivalent . As in go away !


Hmmm, maybe, I guess I will just have to ask one of my neighbours. But it could be.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> yes, I agree, if they are on her own land that is a different matter - but why would she allow these people onto her land
> 
> 
> maybe she should ask them what they are doing there & let the dogs at 'em
> ...


If it's unfenced land then anyone has the right to cross it. If it has no 'coto de caza' signs the hunters can be shooting on it right up to your door.Many people,spanish & foreigners , with large amounts of land don't fence it all & so you get the ramblers, runners, mountain bikes, moto-x bikes all out at the weekends.In the ramblas you're quite likely to be run down by the 4 wheel drive brigade.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

gus-lopez said:


> If it's unfenced land then anyone has the right to cross it. If it has no 'coto de caza' signs the hunters can be shooting on it right up to your door.Many people,spanish & foreigners , with large amounts of land don't fence it all & so you get the ramblers, runners, mountain bikes, moto-x bikes all out at the weekends.In the ramblas you're quite likely to be run down by the 4 wheel drive brigade.


Surely not Gus? I understood that you can only hunt in specially designated areas like a coto de caza and you need a licence of course. Cyclists etc are a different matter, but if it's your land and you don't want people to go across it 'cos you have dogs, big dogs at that, presumably you need to fence in your property. As xabia suggests you might even be legally obliged to do that.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

gus-lopez said:


> If it's unfenced land then anyone has the right to cross it. If it has no 'coto de caza' signs the hunters can be shooting on it right up to your door.Many people,spanish & foreigners , with large amounts of land don't fence it all & so you get the ramblers, runners, mountain bikes, moto-x bikes all out at the weekends.In the ramblas you're quite likely to be run down by the 4 wheel drive brigade.


but you can see why I'm confused

a license for a dangerous dog won't be granted unless the property it is kept on is surrounded by a 2 metre fence

perhaps that isn't practical on a very large property

surely then, if the public has the right to cross it, it is effectively 'public'

I know someone who fell foul of these laws with their 'soft as butter' rottie cross

they didn't get a licence or muzzle the dog in public - or have a high enough fence

one day the dog got out & bit someones face

the dog was put down & the owners fined


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Surely not Gus? I understood that you can only hunt in specially designated areas like a coto de caza and you need a licence of course. Cyclists etc are a different matter, but if it's your land and you don't want people to go across it 'cos you have dogs, big dogs at that, presumably you need to fence in your property. As xabia suggests you might even be legally obliged to do that.


you are legally obliged to - there's a link in the 'useful links' sticky


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

Pesky Wesky said:


> There's definitely something confusing here. The problem as stated by JoCatalunya her(?) self is with strangers. Yet on public land the OP states that the dogs are on leads. So who are the strangers on her land, why are they there? Is this really a land issue and not a dog issue?


The road on my mountain goes nowhere, only to the farms that it serves so to speak. The strangers come up the road since it has been resurfaced, I guess they are curious. My land runs either side of the road. I walk my dogs on my own land and that of my neighbours, (they don't mind, I have asked them).

Around my house I have a 2 metre high fence, on it there are signs in Spanish warning people of the dogs presence, there is also a sign telling them that the Dobe and Boxer can make it to the gate in less than 1.5 seconds, whilst asking them, 'can you?'. My neighbours think that is very funny.

I have no problem with folk walking on my land, persay. I do have problem with folk tormenting my dogs or damaging my property, walls being knocked down by folk trampling over them. So it isn't a land issue, it is definitely a dog issue. 

All my neighbours that come up are okay with my dogs, they know they will protect me and so keep their hands by their side when talking to me, instead of waving them around like windmills. That is the case whether on the lead and/or muzzled. 

To be honest, I just want to understand what gives with these people and what they hope to achieve. I have tried speaking to these runners, but they don't stop for anyone, so short of running after them which I believe would set the dogs going, I am stuck.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

JoCatalunya said:


> The road on my mountain goes nowhere, only to the farms that it serves so to speak. The strangers come up the road since it has been resurfaced, I guess they are curious. My land runs either side of the road. I walk my dogs on my own land and that of my neighbours, (they don't mind, I have asked them).
> 
> Around my house I have a 2 metre high fence, on it there are signs in Spanish warning people of the dogs presence, there is also a sign telling them that the Dobe and Boxer can make it to the gate in less than 1.5 seconds, whilst asking them, 'can you?'. My neighbours think that is very funny.
> 
> ...


Well, you've lost me completely JoCatalunya.
If your land has the required fencing where are the strangers coming from? :confused2:
How do you expect people to know they can't wave their hands around before certain types of dogs? :confused2:
If you don't have a problem with people tramping across your land (how do they get on to it if it's fenced?) then to me that's an indication that there are no dog / stranger issues - but you say there are!:confused2:
Phew -too much for me.
Over and out


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

I thought muzzled dogs couldn't bite??? So why would people have to keep their arms by their sides.. Im lost


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## Sonrisa (Sep 2, 2010)

Note to self: If I am ever unlucky enough to end up in JO's land by mistake , I shall: 

Not run.
Keep my hands stuck to my butt, so the dogs don't get nervous
Not say: que or vete or cake or whatever she doesn't like
Not scream "Like Carmen", whoever that poor woman is
Keep in mind that even if the dogs are muzzed or on a lead, she may have a shotgun somewhere after all, so I'm not enterely safe.
Forget about calling the local police, they are useless, apparently

You said you lived in which mountain? I'll try to keep away.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

MaidenScotland said:


> I thought muzzled dogs couldn't bite??? So why would people have to keep their arms by their sides.. Im lost


It scares the dogs apparently. 

I thought dogs were the ones who needed training, not humans. But perhaps my priorities are wrong.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> It scares the dogs apparently.
> 
> I thought dogs were the ones who needed training, not humans. But perhaps my priorities are wrong.


but if the dogs are muzzled, surely it doesn't matter:confused2:

:doh:


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> It scares the dogs apparently.
> 
> I thought dogs were the ones who needed training, not humans. But perhaps my priorities are wrong.




mmm surely not.. dogs that need someone to stand to attention need the training.


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

My dogs are trained, but see a man waving his hands around like a windmill as a potential threat to me, they have thus far never bitten anyone, however, they do bark at whoever is doing a Don Quixote's nemisis impersonation. All my neighbours know this and have all said that they understand that my dogs see their hand gestures as a threat.

A muzzled dog cannot bite, however, they can jump up and push a person to the ground and whilst you may be able to hold back your dog some of the time, I will lay odds on, there has been the odd occasion when Fifi, has taken you by surprise and lunged at the poodle walking past, so you cannot say in all honesty you can do it all of the time, no matter how much you prepare. 

Where I live it is not allowed to fence off the land, the land I have fenced off is around my house. It encapsulates an area of about an acre, even this small area caused the Rural Agents to have a knipshen and in fact they denuncia'd me for putting up the fence. Luckily the denuncia was thrown out by the Medi Ambient when they realised I had dogs and I had put it up not to spoil hunters fun but to keep my dogs in.

Hunters can and do walk up to your door if you don't have a fence, by law they are not supposed to shoot within 200 metres of a dwelling and never towards it. 
However, seeing as the Rural Agents dont bother to show their faces when hunters are around, who is to enforce it. 
Not the police that is for sure.

I had to visit a shrink before I got my Dobe to check if I was suitable to have one, my son's Catalan friend who has American Pittbulls and Rotties has never had to do anything of the sort and indeed he is amazed I had to go to such lengths. He said he would never do it and that is that. He also refuses to muzzle his dogs, he says, what is the point of having them if you take away their weapons. His words, not mine.


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> It scares the dogs apparently.
> 
> I thought dogs were the ones who needed training, not humans. But perhaps my priorities are wrong.




Sorry I misread your reply


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

JoCatalunya said:


> My dogs are trained, but see a man waving his hands around like a windmill as a potential threat to me, they have thus far never bitten anyone, however, they do bark at whoever is doing a Don Quixote's nemisis impersonation. All my neighbours know this and have all said that they understand that my dogs see their hand gestures as a threat.
> 
> A muzzled dog cannot bite, however, they can jump up and push a person to the ground and whilst you may be able to hold back your dog some of the time, I will lay odds on, there has been the odd occasion when Fifi, has taken you by surprise and lunged at the poodle walking past, so you cannot say in all honesty you can do it all of the time, no matter how much you prepare.
> 
> ...




I have to ask... do you train your dogs to see a man waving his arms as a potential threat?


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

Both Dobes and Boxer's react naturally to this kind of movement. I do not know why, I have been told it is part of what makes them what they are.


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## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

JoCatalunya said:


> I walk my dogs very early in the morning and late at night when there is usually no one around I live in the campo and am the only person actually living on this mountain, the only people who come up here usually are my neighbours and they know the dogs and don't react this way.
> The people I am referring to are casual visitors in the main.
> Yes my big dogs are I guess what folk would class as being 'Dangerous dogs,' one is a Boxer and one is a Doberman (puppy), the other 2 are Andalucian Terriers, (bit like a Jack Russell but bigger).
> All are extremely well behaved and my older dogs have control collars on so I can if necessary control them far better off the lead than most folk can control their dogs on a lead.
> ...


What do you mean by control collars?


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## Ilovepatnevin (Feb 26, 2009)

This is all very confusing. Could the OP just answer 2 questions:
When the incident mentioned in the original post occurred, were the dogs muzzled?
Does s/he expect all people who come into contact with his/her dogs to know that they should not wave their arms around ´like a windmill´ (I´m not quite sure what this means. It sounds quite hazardous and certainly something I´ve seldom seen. Perhaps it’s the behavior of people who fear for their own safety)


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

JoCatalunya said:


> Ah so it isnt just a Catalan thing. Well that is something. However, I worry that one day my dogs will react and trust me my big dogs are not cute little furry things in the least.
> 
> I have them for the love of dogs first and foremost but also to dissuade thieves from thinking my home is ripe for invading and my possessions theirs for the taking.
> 
> The police hereabouts are worse than useless, they won't come out even when you are begging them for help because your home is being invaded with you in it. So dogs are a necessity in my opinion. That or a shotgun.


We have a Rhodesian Ridgeback from champion stock (if interested you can see photo of Our Little Azor in my album).
He weighs in at 54 kilos of muscle and is a big boy but gentle in most situations.
When we take him out for his last walk in the area around the house he is always on his canicollar ,which acts as a kind of muzzle, and his lead. What irritates us are the owners of little and medium-sized dogs who walk them off the lead and allow them to sniff and generally pester our boy. Every so often he will object to having his ******* sniffed by strangers and emits a fearsome low growl. If he attacked one of these importunate beasts he would of course be blamed by the other dog's owner...big dogs always get blamed.
It's my guess that many of these owners haven't bothered to comply with the law and haven't registered, microchipped or vaccinated their dogs. They probably haven't got insurance either.
So far we've had no real problems but these people annoy me.
Jo has met Our Little Azor and knows he is a gentle creature but few people would take kindly to having their bits sniffed by strangers....


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Veronica said:


> What do you mean by control collars?



Probably a Canicollar.....much kinder and more effective than a choke chain. 
We use one for Our Little Azor. You have total control over your dog - however big and strong, s/he can't pull.


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## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

mrypg9 said:


> Probably a Canicollar.....much kinder and more effective than a choke chain.
> We use one for Our Little Azor. You have total control over your dog - however big and strong, s/he can't pull.


But she says she can control them off the lead with the collars. How can that be?


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

Veronica said:


> What do you mean by control collars?


Control Collars are small electronic devices which will deliver a noise or small shock depending on which you ask it to do as and when you need to get your dogs attention. 

Now don't have a knipshen, they are not cruel, in the right hands, they are invaluable. 

My dogs have had one shock apiece, when they decided to ignore me and chase around instead of coming back to my side. 

I have not had to use it again.


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## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

JoCatalunya said:


> Control Collars are small electronic devices which will deliver a noise or small shock depending on which you ask it to do as and when you need to get your dogs attention.
> 
> Now don't have a knipshen, they are not cruel, in the right hands, they are invaluable.
> 
> ...


I thought that was what you meant. You claim to love your dogs????????


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

Electric collars that shock pets into obedience are banned in Wales | Mail Online


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## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

MaidenScotland said:


> Electric collars that shock pets into obedience are banned in Wales | Mail Online


Anyone who has to use these collars to control their should not have dogs.


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## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

Actually I am sitting her quietly seething and fantacising about certain dog owners being made to wear electric collars by their husbands to keep them under control


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

Ilovepatnevin said:


> This is all very confusing. Could the OP just answer 2 questions:
> When the incident mentioned in the original post occurred, were the dogs muzzled?
> Does s/he expect all people who come into contact with his/her dogs to know that they should not wave their arms around ´like a windmill´ (I´m not quite sure what this means. It sounds quite hazardous and certainly something I´ve seldom seen. Perhaps it’s the behavior of people who fear for their own safety)


My dogs were not muzzled as I was not in what I consider to be a public place, but rather I was on my own land.

The runners were not waving their arms around but were approaching me at speed. Anyone who has dogs or knows dogs there are some things you do and some things you dont. One is wave your arms around. For some reason the Catalan people wave their arms around as if they are doing an impersonation of a windmill, perhaps the Spanish people from your areas dont. I cannot say, but I can say my neighbours all realise that this is perceived as a threat by my dogs and so stand with their hands either in their pockets or by their side no problems.

I do not expect people who don't know my dogs to stand to attention, but I would expect them to use their common sense and not make aggresive noises or actions towards dogs, be they on a lead, muzzled or not. It is surely only good sense.


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## Ilovepatnevin (Feb 26, 2009)

Sorry to be repetitiious to the OP but, were they muzzled when the original incident happend?


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

JoCatalunya said:


> My dogs were not muzzled as I was not in what I consider to be a public place, but rather I was on my own land.
> 
> The runners were not waving their arms around but were approaching me at speed. Anyone who has dogs or knows dogs there are some things you do and some things you dont. One is wave your arms around. For some reason the Catalan people wave their arms around as if they are doing an impersonation of a windmill, perhaps the Spanish people from your areas dont. I cannot say, but I can say my neighbours all realise that this is perceived as a threat by my dogs and so stand with their hands either in their pockets or by their side no problems.
> 
> I do not expect people who don't know my dogs to stand to attention, but I would expect them to use their common sense and not make aggresive noises or actions towards dogs, be they on a lead, muzzled or not. It is surely only good sense.




I am sorry but I have had dogs all my life , pets and working dogs.. and I have never been aware that you cannot wave your arms around. When we have had pups we slowly introduce them to "life" we make noises, drop pans, take away their bowl when they are feeding, introduce them to small children, animals.
Dogs are their owners responsibility and the onus is not on how you think others should react around your dogs but on how your dogs are reacting round people.


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## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

MaidenScotland said:


> I am sorry but I have had dogs all my life , pets and working dogs.. and I have never been aware that you cannot wave your arms around. When we have had pups we slowly introduce them to "life" we make noises, drop pans, take away their bowl when they are feeding, introduce them to small children, animals.
> Dogs are their owners responsibility and the onus is not on how you think others should react around your dogs but on how your dogs are reacting round people.


Until recently I have always had dogs and if I had to resort to barbaric electric collars to control them I would have been heartily ashamed of myself.


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

Veronica said:


> Actually I am sitting her quietly seething and fantacising about certain dog owners being made to wear electric collars by their husbands to keep them under control


Have you ever felt the shock they deliver?

Have you ever smacked your dog, or shouted at him, it is no different. They are very, very mild, they are designed only to catch the dogs attention, not zap them into insensibility. I am a responsible dog owner, I object to folk placing choke chains around their dogs necks then pulling on them and choking their dog so they make wheezing sounds. 
I asked my Vet and several specialist dog trainers about them and they all recommended them as being far more humane than a great many of the ways folk choose to train their dogs.

You can get various types of control collar, one delivers sound and shocks, there is one that delivers sprays of citronella or water, the latter is of no use on dogs such as Boxer's and Dobes as they simply ignore them after a few blasts. By the way there is one type that stops your dog barking and one which keeps them within a perimeter, so negating the need for a fence. 

And they are on sale in the UK, as this is where I bought them from.


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

Ilovepatnevin said:


> Sorry to be repetitiious to the OP but, were they muzzled when the original incident happend?


No, they were on my land and not muzzled.


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## Ilovepatnevin (Feb 26, 2009)

> I object to folk placing choke chains around their dogs necks


But you dont object to breaking the law by your dogs being unmuzzled and frightening people (who don't realise that dogs hate windmills)


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## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

It should not be neccesary to smack a dog if it is trained with reward rather than punishment. 
I had a dog from a shelter who was terified that he would get punished when we first got him because he been punished by his previous owner.
Within a very short time through kindness and reward he lost his fear and wanted only to please me at all times. I never ever had to shout at him or smack him. It might take a little longer but is worth it in the end. Your dog should respect and love you so much that he wants nothing more than to please you.


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

Veronica said:


> Until recently I have always had dogs and if I had to resort to barbaric electric collars to control them I would have been heartily ashamed of myself.


So how did you control your dog? With a choke chain, a halti? What breed was it?

You are judging me by your own standards. I feel no shame at having control over my dogs in this way, because I do not use it unless absolutely necessary, it is no different trust me than pulling back on their collar and giving them a sharp rebuke.


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## Ilovepatnevin (Feb 26, 2009)

> I feel no shame at having control over my dogs in this way


Except when they're threatened by windmills


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## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

JoCatalunya said:


> So how did you control your dog? With a choke chain, a halti? What breed was it?
> 
> You are judging me by your own standards. I feel no shame at having control over my dogs in this way, because I do not use it unless absolutely necessary, it is no different trust me than pulling back on their collar and giving them a sharp rebuke.


No I didnt need a chain or a halti. As I said earlier, he was trained with love and reward and wanted only to please me. 
He was a Corgi Jack Russel cross. Both breeds are known to have a bad streak at times. He had not a bad bone in his body.


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

Veronica said:


> It should not be neccesary to smack a dog if it is trained with reward rather than punishment.
> I had a dog from a shelter who was terified that he would get punished when we first got him because he been punished by his previous owner.
> Within a very short time through kindness and reward he lost his fear and wanted only to please me at all times. I never ever had to shout at him or smack him. It might take a little longer but is worth it in the end. Your dog should respect and love you so much that he wants nothing more than to please you.


I rescued my Terriers from a man who was going to drown them. I rescued my Boxer from her previous owner after discovering her tied to a tree and learning she had been force fed sleeping tablets, said previous owner who on discovering she hadnt died in the night went out to shoot her in the head with an airgun. I stopped him and brought her home with me and here she has remained ever since.

I do not smack my dogs, I rarely need to even raise my voice. I bought the collars on advice from experts as whilst rewards do work and indeed my dogs will do anything for one, fact is Boxer's and Terriers can and do become a little deaf when they become engrossed. So rather than risk any of them being placed at risk say from Hunters approaching them I got the collars so I could get their attention as if I was standing right next to them rather than some distance away.


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

Veronica said:


> No I didnt need a chain or a halti. As I said earlier, he was trained with love and reward and wanted only to please me.
> He was a Corgi Jack Russel cross. Both breeds are known to have a bad streak at times. He had not a bad bone in his body.


And neither do any of my dogs, however, because one is a Boxer and the other a Dobe, they are erroneously called 'Dangerous Dog's'. As for my Terriers, they are cuties in my opinion yet possess a set of teeth that can make short work of a rabbit without a moments hesitation.


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## Ilovepatnevin (Feb 26, 2009)

> Boxer's and Terriers can and do become a little deaf when they become engrossed


So why don't you just wave your arms to get their attention?


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## Ilovepatnevin (Feb 26, 2009)

> they are cuties in my opinion yet possess a set of teeth that can make short work of a rabbit without a moments hesitation


Presumably a walker would realise that your dogs wouldn't possibly do them any harm (unless, well...you know... the windmill thing)


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

Ilovepatnevin said:


> But you dont object to breaking the law by your dogs being unmuzzled and frightening people (who don't realise that dogs hate windmills)


How can dogs sitting at my side be considered frightening. They didnt lunge at the runners, they didnt growl, they didnt move in any way towards them, rather they sat at my side and waited for the runners to pass us. They didnt follow them. The runners acted aggresively in my opinion by hissing at the dogs and shouting 'kek', or whatever it was they said.

I have already said on numerous occasions the runners were not windmilling their arms. 

As for muzzling my dogs, the law as far as I know states when they are in a public place. 

Since when has ones own land been a public place.

Do you muzzle your dog when out and about?

Do you think it is only big dogs that bite?


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

Ilovepatnevin said:


> Presumably a walker would realise that your dogs wouldn't possibly do them any harm (unless, well...you know... the windmill thing)


Let me ask you a question or five.

Would you approach a dog, one you didnt know and wave your hands at the owner?

Would you run up to a stranger out with their dog?

Why do you suppose my dogs would harm you? Is it because you see only the Dobe and the Boxer and think, 'ooooh dangerous dogs'. 

Have you ever been bitten by a dog, if so what type of dog was it? Big or little?


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## Ilovepatnevin (Feb 26, 2009)

[/QUOTE]
I called my dogs to me, placing the big ones on the lead and collecting the medium dogs close at hand, they all sat, though one of my big dogs, the youngest, was grumbling about these 3 men [/QUOTE]


> [How can dogs sitting at my side be considered frightening./QUOTE]
> How does a dog grumble? Could it be in a way that a non-dog owner might consider frightening?


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

My youngest dog is a pup of 4 and a half months, he talks, not in words but noises, afterwards he was so upset he kept howling as he walked beside me as if to say he was upset. He needed lots of cuddles to get over it all. When he grumbles it is barely audible. He also whined a bit. 

Would you be scared of a puppy, even if it is a Dobe?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

JoCatalunya said:


> How can dogs sitting at my side be considered frightening. They didnt lunge at the runners, they didnt growl, they didnt move in any way towards them, rather they sat at my side and waited for the runners to pass us. They didnt follow them. The runners acted aggresively in my opinion by hissing at the dogs and shouting 'kek', or whatever it was they said.
> 
> I have already said on numerous occasions the runners were not windmilling their arms.
> 
> ...



I thought you said that the dogs were passed by cyclists and ladies walking passed ran away?? Is that happening on your private land?? If so, you should put notices on your land stating that there could be "dangerous animals"

I havent read all these posts, but I dont like people arguing about something that is not necessary. Dogs who are on the dangerous breed list should be notified/registered and should be kept secure on their own land when not muzzled. When they are taken out in public, they must be muzzled. Thats the law and isnt an argument! Its got nothing to do with whether these dangerous dogs are in fact dangerous individually - its the breed that dictates the law and those who break it can be expected to be prosecuted. 

Jo xxx


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

What is public land? Is it land that can be accessed by the public despite it being private?


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

JoCatalunya said:


> I rescued my Terriers from a man who was going to drown them. I rescued my Boxer from her previous owner after discovering her tied to a tree and learning she had been force fed sleeping tablets, said previous owner who on discovering she hadnt died in the night went out to shoot her in the head with an airgun. I stopped him and brought her home with me and here she has remained ever since.
> 
> I do not smack my dogs, I rarely need to even raise my voice. I bought the collars on advice from experts as whilst rewards do work and indeed my dogs will do anything for one, fact is Boxer's and Terriers can and do become a little deaf when they become engrossed. So rather than risk any of them being placed at risk say from Hunters approaching them I got the collars so I could get their attention as if I was standing right next to them rather than some distance away.




Well done on rescuing the dogs.


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## Ilovepatnevin (Feb 26, 2009)

> Would you approach a dog, one you didnt know and wave your hands at the owner?


Am I approaching the dog or the owner? Why would I wave my hands? (unless, of course, I was scared)



> Would you run up to a stranger out with their dog?


If I was out for a run and we were sharing the same path then, yes.



> Why do you suppose my dogs would harm you? Is it because you see only the Dobe and the Boxer and think, 'ooooh dangerous dogs'.


I haven’t a clue what either of these dogs look like.



> Have you ever been bitten by a dog, if so what type of dog was it? Big or little?


I can’t remember, but it hurt!

My computer must have broken, I thought you said there were five questions.


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

jojo said:


> I thought you said that the dogs were passed by cyclists and ladies walking passed ran away?? Is that happening on your private land?? If so, you should put notices on your land stating that there could be "dangerous animals"
> 
> I havent read all these posts, but I dont like people arguing about something that is not necessary. Dogs who are on the dangerous breed list should be notified/registered and should be kept secure on their own land when not muzzled. When they are taken out in public, they must be muzzled. Thats the law and isnt an argument! Its got nothing to do with whether these dangerous dogs are in fact dangerous individually - its the breed that dictates the law and those who break it can be expected to be prosecuted.
> 
> Jo xxx


You misunderstand me, I am not arguing, merely replying to the posts, I apologise if you think I am being argumentative.


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

MaidenScotland said:


> Well done on rescuing the dogs.


Why thank you, I cannot understand some folks mentality, I truly would never harm any of my dogs. I love them deeply and live for them. 

A couple of years back my terrier fell into the River Ebro, without thinking I jumped in after him and pulled him out, admittedly the river only came up to my waist but the current was tremendously strong.

A fisherman helped me out and asked me what the heck had I been thinking.

All I could think about was my little dog in trouble.


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

Ilovepatnevin said:


> Am I approaching the dog or the owner? Why would I wave my hands? (unless, of course, I was scared)
> 
> 
> If I was out for a run and we were sharing the same path then, yes.
> ...


I thought I would let you off the final question. 

As I have said, my dogs come to my side whenever they see someone nearby, so if you approached me, you approach the dogs at the same time.

As for running toward someone, fair enough, but if the person with the dogs sharing the same path as you had the dogs under control would you act aggresively? Why would you? Anyone who knows anything about dogs surely knows that you act calmly not aggresively for fear of provoking some kind of response you really wouldnt like.


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

MaidenScotland said:


> What is public land? Is it land that can be accessed by the public despite it being private?


To me, private land is just that, however in Spain, anyone can and usually does walk anywhere they please.


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

JoCatalunya said:


> Why thank you, I cannot understand some folks mentality, I truly would never harm any of my dogs. I love them deeply and live for them.
> 
> A couple of years back my terrier fell into the River Ebro, without thinking I jumped in after him and pulled him out, admittedly the river only came up to my waist but the current was tremendously strong.
> 
> ...




I am sure you do love your dogs very much but honestly it reads as if you use these collars because you haven't really got control over your dogs and you are frightened of what they might do. My daughter has 5 dogs, 3 labs and 2 yorkies all daft stupid dogs but she never walks them together despite the labs being working dogs who obey the whistle as she says dogs are pack animals and when one goes it is very difficult to control them all.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

JoCatalunya said:


> You misunderstand me, I am not arguing, merely replying to the posts, I apologise if you think I am being argumentative.


Its ok hun, I'm just pointing out that there is no argument with the law! Its the same in the UK. There is a category of dogs who are considered "dangerous" by breed, regardless of their nature. And these dogs have to be either kept chained up or secured in their private land, or if taken out, must be on a strong lead, with an owner who has full control and muzzled! There are no "ifs","buts" or "maybes"

I've actually come onto this thread late aand only skimmed it, so I dont know whats been said. 

Interestingly, I took my two little dogs out with my neighbour and her golden retrievers yesterday (something we do fairly regularly). Now, one of mine is a bit "frisky" and thinks he's top dog and is a menace! My neighbours dogs are soooooo placid and relaxed that they usually just ignore my silly little thing. However, yesterday, her dog just had enough! and went for mine - it was frightening, for a few moments we were both paralysed with fear. Fortunately it all ended ok, my little dog learnt a lesson and her dog calmed down and all was well - HOWEVER, my neighbour has never, ever seen her dog do anything even vaguely aggressive - until yesterday! My point is that you cant really ever know how far your dog would go if pushed!

Jo xxx


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

jojo said:


> Its ok hun, I'm just pointing out that there is no argument with the law! Its the same in the UK. There is a category of dogs who are considered "dangerous" by breed, regardless of their nature. And these dogs have to be either kept chained up or secured in their private land, or if taken out, must be on a strong lead, with an owner who has full control and muzzled! There are no "ifs","buts" or "maybes"
> 
> I've actually come onto this thread late aand only skimmed it, so I dont know whats been said.
> 
> ...


No you can't, can you. 

I find it hard to understand however, how folk can judge me adversely just because I say I use control collars. Some have even said that if they used them they would feel ashamed so inferring I should be ashamed. Truly they are no different in the right hands to a choke chain, a halti, or muzzle. I have seen dogs so restricted by all of the above they cannot breath properly. I do muzzle my dogs when out in town or the village, however, I have had people approaching my muzzled dogs and heard them make the hissing noise at them and saying 'kek'. 

By the way, my Terriers are far more problematic than my big dogs, I guess it is the Napoleon syndrome at its best. :boxing:


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

MaidenScotland said:


> I am sure you do love your dogs very much but honestly it reads as if you use these collars because you haven't really got control over your dogs and you are frightened of what they might do. My daughter has 5 dogs, 3 labs and 2 yorkies all daft stupid dogs but she never walks them together despite the labs being working dogs who obey the whistle as she says dogs are pack animals and when one goes it is very difficult to control them all.


They are pack animals, but hopefully one can become the alpha ***** without resorting to violence. However, even the alpha ***** can and does give those beneath her a nip and if by using a collar that simply gives a tickle to the dog is enough to make them take note I would rather use one than watch my dog come to harm because I was too squeamish to use them.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Ilovepatnevin said:


> So why don't you just wave your arms to get their attention?


Hahahhaa!! This thread is the funniest I've read for some time.:clap2:


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Ilovepatnevin said:


> Presumably a walker would realise that your dogs wouldn't possibly do them any harm (unless, well...you know... the windmill thing)


I thought Don Quijote lived in La Mancha, not Catalunya?

Jeez, I think I´ll stick to cats. Anything for a quiet life.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

MaidenScotland said:


> What is public land? Is it land that can be accessed by the public despite it being private?


that's where I get lost

surely if the public has access to it, it is essentially public...........


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Surely not Gus? I understood that you can only hunt in specially designated areas like a coto de caza and you need a licence of course. Cyclists etc are a different matter, but if it's your land and you don't want people to go across it 'cos you have dogs, big dogs at that, presumably you need to fence in your property. As xabia suggests you might even be legally obliged to do that.


No , you can hunt anywhere where there is not coto de caza signs. The signs , which you obtain a licence from the local council to erect, means the hunting on the land is for the owners & friends only . Otherwise the hunters can shoot basically anywhere but are legally obliged not to shhot within 200 m , 500m in some regions, of houses. This , in some areas ,is totally ignored. On one forum there's someone who has an ongoing problem with hunters where they shoot over his fenced property, has been physically attacked on occasions requiring hospitalisation; On another forum recently someones dog was shot dead whilst being walked & Seprona said that they couldn't take action as the dog had to be within a certain distance ( can't remember whether it was 5m or 25m ) of them for it to be an offence. 
I used to erect gates & fencing & have fenced many remote houses on mountains & at the weekends the hunters , along with the cyclists, moto-x bikes, etc; are a nightmare to you & themselves. 
Anyway :focus: , the law is not specific. It states that you have to have the dogs inside a 2m high fence on your own land but doesn't state what about land that you own that is unfenced. can't the dogs be on it ? It's not public land . I find that most spanish walkers, cyclists, runners, etc; have been chased by so many spanish dogs ( I have )that they assume all dogs are going to set about them & they react in advance to shoo the dogs away even when the dogs are sat doing nothing ! 
I've even had a policeman drive in through my front gate , which was open at the time 'cause I was working on it & nearly running over my feet in the process, & get out waving his arms & feet at the dogs. Who were only doing what they are there for & sitting waiting for him to get out . He got short shrift & told they live here , you don't . & yes , the smallest dogs are normally the most aggressive & think they are in charge.


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## donz (May 5, 2010)

Having just read through the last 8 pages, I think what we are all forgetting is that we are in SPAIN and not in our native country (for me & majority I think, the UK) where things are a bit different 

The Spanish DO treat animals very differently here and although they are slowly coming round, the older generation and more rural populations still mis-treat and view dogs so differently.  We have to remember this! Much as I hate seeing so many strays, dead dogs, even unkempt skinny dogs that are pets, I cannot help them all.

You can't stop people being theirselves - it is fine if you have friends & neighbours that know your dogs will protect you whatever and know how to behave around your dogs but again the Spanish are just that - flamboyant! They do get passionate & are very 'hands' - why should they not be like that because your dogs don't like it? I understand where you're coming from but maybe it should be the other way around and that you should train your dogs to be more tolerant of this gesturing. 

My point is, you have 4 dogs 2 of which are big. Much as they may not appear to YOU to be scary because they are sitting at your side while runners go past - to others they CAN & DO. They may have had muzzles on (I can't remember there was so much debate!) but it doesn't matter (this can make them look even more scary to people even if it's to stop them eating rubbish!). I also recall you saying one of them was having a bit of a grumble - can't remember which dog you said it was but it's still a warning!

I have 6 various sized dogs. I never walk them all out together because of a few reasons - this being one. It's just not worth the problems and I will 100% admit that if a 'situation' were to occur, then all 6 could not be controlled fully by 1 person on their own. I also do not believe that 4 (2 large 2 medium?) could be. My dogs are not offended by the 'gesturing' but then they are very well trained. 1 is a fully trained security dog who will also protect but I do not have to be concerned with him being wound up about gesturing or people running normally. Training is the key (I am not big headed here just giving examples)

Shock collars - yes in the 'right' hands can be effective. Problem is in the same way that citronella and spray collars become ineffective after a 'few' blasts, so do shock collars hence why the intensity ends up getting turned up. Many dogs develop a big pain threshold and are very stoic in their breed so shock collars only work for them if they are disabling  It sounds like these 'experts' are very old school in their methods. Don't get me wrong, there is a tiny place for shock collars and without meeting your dogs I can't make the judgement but from what you described they would have to be REALLY needing it to use them and from what you say then it sounds like they shouldn't. Your choice of course! 

It IS about training or management. You either make yourself the best thing since sliced bread so they will recall EVERY time or manage the situ. Walk them on a long line or not all together for example. I know it is not ideal and is a pain in the rear, after all you have 10 acres and why the hell shouldn't you but if you cannot fence your land off the you are stuck. I also live in the campo so quite similar to you, I have 'neighbours' who are weekenders at the most but live much further up/down the track. On a weekend I don't let my gang go out of the property off lead even though I know most that venture up this way - I don't want them run over for a start! The odd car coming up isn't always as slow as I might like! 

Anyway I could go on and on, but I really think it comes back to the first point I made - when in Rome.....adapt a bit! Much as we have our ideals, it is not up the Spanish to change for the Brits (and believe me there is much I would love to change)


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

JoCatalunya said:


> Control Collars are small electronic devices which will deliver a noise or small shock depending on which you ask it to do as and when you need to get your dogs attention.
> 
> Now don't have a knipshen, they are not cruel, in the right hands, they are invaluable.
> 
> ...


I would NEVER use such a device to control my dog.
Proper training and the right relationship with your dog will make him /her obedient.
These devices sound primitive and I'm not surprised they've been banned in more enlightened places.


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## andmac (Nov 9, 2010)

Slightly off topic.

We used to have a Dobermann in the UK. Initially, we didn't muzzle him in our garden. (out on walks he was muzzled).

One autumn, he ate a hedgehog, and subsequently acquired the taste for hedgehog meat. So we muzzled him in the garden.

A couple of days later, I went out into the garden as he was making a fuss. He had his muzzle on and was repeatedly headbutting a hedgehog!

Dogs have their own minds, and despite training, you still never fully understand how the mind works!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

andmac;487536!
Dogs have their own minds said:


> That is so true...which is why you need TOTAL control over your dog, however big or small.
> Our dog is NEVER off the lead except when in the campo with no other dogs/humans in sight. When we see people/other dogs he is put on the lead.
> We have a big garden, a field really, so he can run,jump and play there there to get exercise.


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

mrypg9 said:


> I would NEVER use such a device to control my dog.
> Proper training and the right relationship with your dog will make him /her obedient.
> These devices sound primitive and I'm not surprised they've been banned in more enlightened places.


The only enlightened place as you call it that has banned these collars is Wales they are perfectly legal in England, Scotland, France, Spain in fact the majority of Europe.

Whilst it is not ideal that they are used, I can assure you I purchased them after many hours of soul searching but decided as no matter what training I gave my dogs they on occasion stopped listening to me (usually when they got a scent of a rabbit) and took off. I live on a mountain that has its fair share of people driving up the road at breakneck speed and have no respect or care that anyone might be on it walking. My smallest terrier started to chase vehicles, he would run off even when I was a good half a mile away from the road to go get the car, shouting, whistling, treat giving did no good. Soon my Boxer started to follow along with my other terrier which was definitely not ideal. After a couple of run offs I decided to walk the troublemaker on the lead so he couldnt run off, this was all well and good but the Boxer and the other one had gotten a taste for going off. I tried distraction techniques, I tried walking them individually. It got so bad that if I opened my gate my small terrier would bolt out past me and run off, all in the pursuit of car chasing. I feared for his and indeed all my dogs safety. So I took advice, I called a very renowned dog trainer that has appeared on TV and asked him what he thought and he told me that I would have to do something drastic to get him out of this cycle otherwise one of these days he would end up under the wheels. I asked him what he thought I should do and he told me he had, had very good results using a spray collar but that they were by no means infallible that sometimes they didnt work and something a little more definite might be needed. I went onto the internet and found a company that sells many different types and purchased a citronella one first. It didnt work, my dogs do not care about the smell of citronella and dont care if they get sprayed in the face with water. 
So I called the professional again and he said, a sharp short shock might do the trick. so I purchased an electronic collar which delivers audible sounds on the first 3 settings only and a small shock on the 4th etc. I was so scared to use the collar I actually put it on myself before I put it on the dog, it was no worse than a flick with your middle finger against the back of my hand. I put the collars on my dogs and went out. I had been out for about an hour when my small terrier took off, I was literally in the middle of nowhere, the opposite side of a huge valley from a small track up which a vehicle was driving. I called and called, I whistled, I knew I had to do something so I pressed the tone button and he hesitated, but continued, in desperation I gave him a small shock and he stopped.
The following time, when he took off I gave him the tone warning and he stopped without hesitation, the third outing he stopped when I called him. Now a car can drive past me without him being on a lead and he simply sits and watches it drive past. Yes he is excited, you can see it in his face that he wants to chase it, but he doesnt. 
Now if some of you reckon you could have gotten him out of chasing cars with kind words, treats, a disappointed look or whatever it is you think would work, I say this to you. I have had dogs all my life, I have trained dogs to herd sheep, to find people in the snow, to guard people and houses, I have even trained them to hunt and this dog defied all my experience and that of many of my friends including a police dog handler (retired) to get him out of his naughty habit. I make no apologise for doing what was needed to stop my dog coming to harm.


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

mrypg9 said:


> That is so true...which is why you need TOTAL control over your dog, however big or small.
> Our dog is NEVER off the lead except when in the campo with no other dogs/humans in sight. When we see people/other dogs he is put on the lead.
> We have a big garden, a field really, so he can run,jump and play there there to get exercise.


I walk my dogs on my land and that of my neighbours (with their permission). I walk them very early in the morning and late at night so I do not run into folk etc, however on the rare occasion I do meet someone I always call my dogs to me and put the big ones on the lead. My land is around 10 acres so it is a pretty big garden to play in, albeit it unfenced for the most part.


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

andmac said:


> Slightly off topic.
> 
> We used to have a Dobermann in the UK. Initially, we didn't muzzle him in our garden. (out on walks he was muzzled).
> 
> ...


I have never had such an intelligent dog before as my Dobe is. I got him at 6 weeks old, (his mum decided she had, had enough of him and wouldnt feed him). He came housetrained, at 8 weeks old he was sitting to command, at 9, he lay down on command. Virtually from day one he came to call, he is now 4 and a half months old and is one smart cookie.


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## andmac (Nov 9, 2010)

JoCatalunya said:


> I have never had such an intelligent dog before as my Dobe is. I got him at 6 weeks old, (his mum decided she had, had enough of him and wouldnt feed him). He came housetrained, at 8 weeks old he was sitting to command, at 9, he lay down on command. Virtually from day one he came to call, he is now 4 and a half months old and is one smart cookie.


Without doubt, they are very intelligent dogs.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

JoCatalunya said:


> The only enlightened place as you call it that has banned these collars is Wales they are perfectly legal in England, Scotland, France, Spain in fact the majority of Europe.
> 
> Whilst it is not ideal that they are used, I can assure you I purchased them after many hours of soul searching but decided as no matter what training I gave my dogs they on occasion stopped listening to me (usually when they got a scent of a rabbit) and took off. I live on a mountain that has its fair share of people driving up the road at breakneck speed and have no respect or care that anyone might be on it walking. My smallest terrier started to chase vehicles, he would run off even when I was a good half a mile away from the road to go get the car, shouting, whistling, treat giving did no good. Soon my Boxer started to follow along with my other terrier which was definitely not ideal. After a couple of run offs I decided to walk the troublemaker on the lead so he couldnt run off, this was all well and good but the Boxer and the other one had gotten a taste for going off. I tried distraction techniques, I tried walking them individually. It got so bad that if I opened my gate my small terrier would bolt out past me and run off, all in the pursuit of car chasing. I feared for his and indeed all my dogs safety. So I took advice, I called a very renowned dog trainer that has appeared on TV and asked him what he thought and he told me that I would have to do something drastic to get him out of this cycle otherwise one of these days he would end up under the wheels. I asked him what he thought I should do and he told me he had, had very good results using a spray collar but that they were by no means infallible that sometimes they didnt work and something a little more definite might be needed. I went onto the internet and found a company that sells many different types and purchased a citronella one first. It didnt work, my dogs do not care about the smell of citronella and dont care if they get sprayed in the face with water.
> So I called the professional again and he said, a sharp short shock might do the trick. so I purchased an electronic collar which delivers audible sounds on the first 3 settings only and a small shock on the 4th etc. I was so scared to use the collar I actually put it on myself before I put it on the dog, it was no worse than a flick with your middle finger against the back of my hand. I put the collars on my dogs and went out. I had been out for about an hour when my small terrier took off, I was literally in the middle of nowhere, the opposite side of a huge valley from a small track up which a vehicle was driving. I called and called, I whistled, I knew I had to do something so I pressed the tone button and he hesitated, but continued, in desperation I gave him a small shock and he stopped.
> ...


I hear what you say but I would not use one. Neither do I approve of those chokes with spiky bits.
Have you tried using a Cannicollar? If it gives you total control over a Ridgeback - as it does -it would enable you to control a buffalo.....


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> I hear what you say but I would not use one. Neither do I approve of those chokes with spiky bits.
> Have you tried using a Cannicollar? If it gives you total control over a Ridgeback - as it does -it would enable you to control a buffalo.....


I think the problem is calling them back when they are off the lead, they ignore her.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

MaidenScotland said:


> I think the problem is calling them back when they are off the lead, they ignore her.


As someone has said, the best-trained dog can be disobedient and unpredictable. 
You have to read situations, rather like driving a car. 
But even then you won't have total control unless your dog is on the lead and dogs need freedom.
Dog owners should take every precaution, especially if like us their dog is a potential lethal weapon. But members of the public should use a bit of common sense too.
That's stating the bleedin' obvious..


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## owdoggy (Jul 23, 2008)

The best trained dog in the world, when given the right set of circumstances, will do off like a rocket and there’s not a damn thing the formerly confident owner can do about it and then the “My dog is so well trained, I am in complete control” statement turns into “Well, he’s never done that before”.

I know the fellow dog owners on here are going to shoot me down for this but the only way to have 100% control of a dog is on a lead…….. or should be but some people can’t even manage that! 

All this “I know exactly what the dog is going to do” malarkey is a load of old bollox.

Sorry, but you know I don’t do tact.




Doggy








p.s. Flak jacket on for all the indignant "My dog(s) would never do that!" replies


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

owdoggy said:


> The best trained dog in the world, when given the right set of circumstances, will do off like a rocket and there’s not a damn thing the formerly confident owner can do about it and then the “My dog is so well trained, I am in complete control” statement turns into “Well, he’s never done that before”.
> 
> I know the fellow dog owners on here are going to shoot me down for this but the only way to have 100% control of a dog is on a lead…….. or should be but some people can’t even manage that!
> 
> ...


Agree 100% although a Cannicollar does give excellent control....on the lead.


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

mrypg9 said:


> As someone has said, the best-trained dog can be disobedient and unpredictable.
> You have to read situations, rather like driving a car.
> But even then you won't have total control unless your dog is on the lead and dogs need freedom.
> Dog owners should take every precaution, especially if like us their dog is a potential lethal weapon. But members of the public should use a bit of common sense too.
> That's stating the bleedin' obvious..


Unfortunately it doesnt seem to be in great supply around these parts.


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

I have another pet hate after choke chains, usually put on incorrectly or pulled into a stangle hold but I digress. It is one of those blessed leads that are 3 or 4 metres long. The number of times these leads has let a dog run out into the road is incalculable. Yet for some reason folk who use them think they have control over their dogs.


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## donz (May 5, 2010)

extendable leads? One of the worlds most dangerous leads they are  I had a customer whose extendable broke when the dog thought it was on 'free reign' (as they do when you let the catch off!) so off it ran towards a bike, got to the end of it, the cable snapped, the woman grabbed the extendable cord - which burnt her - so she let go and the dog was run over 

There is the above scenario or the dogs get whiplash when they get to the end of the length and then get snapped backwards


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

donz said:


> extendable leads? One of the worlds most dangerous leads they are  I had a customer whose extendable broke when the dog thought it was on 'free reign' (as they do when you let the catch off!) so off it ran towards a bike, got to the end of it, the cable snapped, the woman grabbed the extendable cord - which burnt her - so she let go and the dog was run over
> 
> There is the above scenario or the dogs get whiplash when they get to the end of the length and then get snapped backwards


I guess some folk think they are being kind by giving their dog enough rope, however, it usually ends up hanging them. 

Also what gives with the doggy poo situation. Today whilst in town I saw a woman allowing her dog to foul the footpath, a policeman was closeby but he didnt batt an eyelid as she walked off without picking it up. UGH!

Yet I have been accused by a walker of not respecting the law because one of my dogs went to the toilet on the abandonado on my mountain. Go figure that one.


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

I thought that those stupid extendable leads were made so that the dog could take the owner for a walk


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

playamonte said:


> I thought that those stupid extendable leads were made so that the dog could take the owner for a walk


You certainly would think so.


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## owdoggy (Jul 23, 2008)

donz said:


> extendable leads? One of the worlds most dangerous leads they are  I had a customer whose extendable broke when the dog thought it was on 'free reign' (as they do when you let the catch off!) so off it ran towards a bike, got to the end of it, the cable snapped, the woman grabbed the extendable cord - which burnt her - so she let go and the dog was run over
> 
> There is the above scenario or the dogs get whiplash when they get to the end of the length and then get snapped backwards


Absolute & utter cobblers! If someone can’t work out how to control a dog with an extendable lead then they shouldn’t be in charge of a tomato plant let alone an animal.

Good old fashioned “common sense” …….. an endangered species if ever there was one so it would seem.

Hey ho!


Doggy


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

JoCatalunya said:


> Unfortunately it doesnt seem to be in great supply around these parts.


Don't you just love it when people look at your dog and ask: 'Does s/he bite?'
I always reply that yes, he does. Then when they look alarmed and move back with hand back in pocket I say 'I bite too as like him I have teeth. But I won't bite you and neither will he unless you upset us'.
Having been in politics and also taughtyoung people and adults for most of my life I am never surprised at how daft some people are.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

owdoggy said:


> Absolute & utter cobblers! If someone can’t work out how to control a dog with an extendable lead then they shouldn’t be in charge of a tomato plant let alone an animal.
> 
> Good old fashioned “common sense” …….. an endangered species if ever there was one so it would seem.
> 
> ...


I think I agree with that too as these leads can be locked to any length, long, medium or short. 
We use an extendable lead for Our Little Azor but keep him on a short leash when walking in town. He gets a long lead when in the campo and there's horses or other animals around but not too near.
In the end, it's all down to common sense and consideration for others. I love my dog but I recognise that my feelings are not shared by everyone he encounters and that although he is usually mild and gentle like some humans he is capable of being unpredictable. I also recognise that for whatever reason some people are genuinely scared of dogs especially big ones and their feelings should be respected too.
I wish I had 10 euros for every dog owner whose unleashed dog pesters Azor and who tells us apologetically 'He's not normally like that'.......


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

mrypg9 said:


> Don't you just love it when people look at your dog and ask: 'Does s/he bite?'
> I always reply that yes, he does. Then when they look alarmed and move back with hand back in pocket I say 'I bite too as like him I have teeth. But I won't bite you and neither will he unless you upset us'.
> Having been in politics and also taughtyoung people and adults for most of my life I am never surprised at how daft some people are.


What is daft is goading a dog and then wondering why the owner gets upset and the dog may or may not react adversely..


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

JoCatalunya said:


> What is daft is goading a dog and then wondering why the owner gets upset and the dog may or may not react adversely..


Why do you think that this happens to you??? Cos I cant imagine that sort of behaviour happening in our area by either Spanish or British??? unless they're trying to wind you up??? But I still dont get it?? 

Jo xxx


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

jojo said:


> Why do you think that this happens to you??? Cos I cant imagine that sort of behaviour happening in our area by either Spanish or British??? unless they're trying to wind you up??? But I still dont get it??
> 
> Jo xxx


What you have to realise is this isn't Spain, or so the Catalans will have you believe. Winding extranjeros up is the norm I sincerely believe. The police and the courts are under investigation by the Ministry of the Interior regards their record of abuse of power etc especially over their seeming bias with regards cases against foreigners.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

playamonte said:


> I thought that those stupid extendable leads were made so that the dog could take the owner for a walk


I was in the vets a few months back & a year-old pit-bull came in dragging a middle-aged spaniard , 20' behind, on one of those mickey mouse chinese extendable leads. Started sniffing round me . We had words !


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

JoCatalunya said:


> What you have to realise is this isn't Spain, or so the Catalans will have you believe. Winding extranjeros up is the norm I sincerely believe. The police and the courts are under investigation by the Ministry of the Interior regards their record of abuse of power etc especially over their seeming bias with regards cases against foreigners.


I thought that's why it was called Cata-looney-ya.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

I don't use extendable leads - my dogs are either under very close control or running free which is only ever in open campo. 

There's nothing wrong with these leads I suppose it's just the idiots on the end... Still, even these idiots are better than the ones (many) who walk their dogs around the village on no lead at all.

Incidentally my dogs wear harnesses rather than collars so that I can restrain then in the car as is required by law,


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jimenato said:


> I don't use extendable leads - my dogs are either under very close control or running free which is only ever in open campo.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with these leads I suppose it's just the idiots on the end... Still, even these idiots are better than the ones (many) who walk their dogs around the village on no lead at all.
> 
> Incidentally my dogs wear harnesses rather than collars so that I can restrain then in the car as is required by law,


We have a harness for OLA but don't use it now ...your post has got me thinking that we should.
We restrain him in the back compartment of the Discovery by anchring him via his lead through the seatbelt to the floor.
Someone told me this was acceptable.....


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> We have a harness for OLA but don't use it now ...your post has got me thinking that we should.
> We restrain him in the back compartment of the Discovery by anchring him via his lead through the seatbelt to the floor.
> Someone told me this was acceptable.....


It probably is.


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

jimenato said:


> It probably is.


I have a Mitsubishi Pajero, no don't blush I know what that means in Spanish/Catalan which ever it is but hey it's what it is called, in which I have a dog gaurd across the divide between boot and back seat. My dogs go in there, loose, so I am probably breaking some law or other. However, it is really scary to see some of the people round here taking their dogs out. Strapped into the back of a pick up by a rope round its neck springs to mind, or bouncing around in a dog trailer. Thing is the police don't batt an eyelid.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

JoCatalunya said:


> I have a Mitsubishi Pajero, no don't blush I know what that means in Spanish/Catalan which ever it is but hey it's what it is called, in which I have a dog gaurd across the divide between boot and back seat. My dogs go in there, loose, so I am probably breaking some law or other. However, it is really scary to see some of the people round here taking their dogs out. Strapped into the back of a pick up by a rope round its neck springs to mind, or bouncing around in a dog trailer. Thing is the police don't batt an eyelid.


I remember looking this up before on another thread and the law is not specific, it just states that the dog must not be able to get at/distract the driver. So grilles, dividers or restraints attached to seat belts are fine, but loose on the back seat is a definite no-no. Someone round here got fined €60 each for his two dogs for that.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

I think it's a good rule. Dogs creating havoc can be very distracting and one of mine crawled under the brake pedal once


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

jimenato said:


> I think it's a good rule. Dogs creating havoc can be very distracting and one of mine crawled under the brake pedal once


:jaw: 




I wonder where the law stands on dogs on the front seat sat next to you, restrained of course by one of those seat belt thingies.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

JoCatalunya said:


> I wonder where the law stands on dogs on the front seat sat next to you, restrained of course by one of those seat belt thingies.


I´m pretty sure it has to be in the back (in case the dog has a very long tongue, presumably ...)


> La DGT no permite que los perros viajen sueltos en el coche. Para evitar que moleste al conductor tienes varias opciones:
> 
> * Llevarlos en un transportín (solo es útil si tu perro es pequeño)
> * Existen cinturones de seguridad para perros, que se colocan de forma parecida a un arnés. Son muy útiles para trayectos cortos, pero en distancias largas el perro estará incomodo, ya que no permiten apenas libertad de movimiento.
> ...


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

Alcalaina said:


> I´m pretty sure it has to be in the back (in case the dog has a very long tongue, presumably ...)


It's the cold nose that makes me jump, lol


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