# Immigration Law Changes



## sparks

*Retirees forced out of Mexico*

Well it certainly seems that way with the new immigration rules published this morning. I know tons of people who either own a home or rely on cheap rent so do well with the old income requirements of $12-1300us a month. To raise that limit almost $800 is going to be a problem for many. It gets especially spooky when people who have lived here for 10+ years as home owners talk about being forced to sell and leave because their house is not worth $195K and they have a modest income. Then we have all the people, mainly on the coast, who own Ejido land and don't have title so value of the house is irrelevant ... it's not really theirs. I'm in the twilight zone as far as income but adjusting it now would not give me the 6 months required in January. Do we need to look for another place to live?

TEMPORARY RESIDENTS

•Original and copy of proof of investments or bank accounts with an average worth over the previous year equivalent to $95,000.00 USD;
•Original and copy of documents that prove that the foreigner has had for the previous six months an income from a job (outside of Mexico) or a pension that pays at least $1,950.00 USD per month;
•Proof of a any familiar bond with another Temporary or Permanent Resident or a marital (or equivalent) bond with a Mexican;
•Original and copy of a notarized public deed showing ownership (or trust rights) to a property in Mexico worth at least $195,000.00 USD; 
•Proof of participation of at least $100,000.00 USD in a Mexican company;
•Proof of ownership in heavy equipment or machinery in Mexico worth more than $100,000.00 USD; OR
•Proof of doing business in Mexico and legally creating at least 5 jobs for Mexicans.

PERMANENT RESIDENT

•Original and copy of proof of investments or bank accounts with an average worth over the previous year equivalent to $95,000.00 USD;
•Original and copy of documents that prove that the foreigner has had for the previous six months an income from a job (outside of Mexico) or a pension that pays at least $2,400.00 USD per month;
•Proof of parent-child bond with a Mexican citizen by birth (this would be birth certificates of everyone involved, plus any other documents proving the citizenship of the Mexican citizen);
•Proof of the same parent-child bond with another Permanent Resident; OR
•Proof that you have enough points (based on a points system that still hasn’t been published).


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## mickisue1

Are the rules really written in US dollars, or have they been translated for this forum?


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## vantexan

Will people who own homes, etc and don't qualify under the new rules be able to remain using the tourist visa? And I guess that'll open up new problems such as having to take your car out of the country every 6 months too.


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## mickisue1

Sparks, can you link to the site where you got those income requirements, please?

I'm searching for translated info, because my Spanish isn't good enough to scan for content, and can't seem to find much.


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## joaquinx

mickisue1 said:


> Sparks, can you link to the site where you got those income requirements, please?
> 
> I'm searching for translated info, because my Spanish isn't good enough to scan for content, and can't seem to find much.


The regs are here http://www.expatforum.com/expats/me...-new-reglamento-de-la-ley-de-migracion-2.html and there are options to get a translation.


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## johnmex

mickisue1 said:


> Are the rules really written in US dollars, or have they been translated for this forum?


Actually, the regulations, as all monetary requirements in Mexico, are based on "salario minimo diario" as currently quoted in D.F.


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## mickisue1

joaquinx said:


> The regs are here http://www.expatforum.com/expats/me...-new-reglamento-de-la-ley-de-migracion-2.html and there are options to get a translation.


Thanks, Joaquin. I didn't see the option for translation to the right.

The monthly income requirement is actually a bit less, based on today's rate: $1893USD/month, although the savings over the past year is similar at about $94,700 USD total.

The requirement for a six month's visa is for savings or income less than 7 months (200 days of the DF minimum, or $946/month. 

For permanent, it's necessary to have (at today's rates) $117400USD over the past year in savings or investments, and $2348/month in income over the past six months.

Looked at from the POV of the Mexican government, that's all to the good: if you are staying for 6 months or less, you can probably make it on a little over the minimum wage.

If you are on a fixed income, and want to stay for 4 years, then Mexico knowing that your income should survive four years of inflation gives them the confidence to allow you into the country for that length of time, without worrying that you'll become a burden to the state.

Again, if you want to be a permanent resident, the income requirements should allow you to survive a much longer period of inflation. 

It makes it more of a challenge to enter, but it still means that for the majority of middle class Americans (and, I suspect, Canadians) they can live a much richer and more rewarding life than they could possibly do in the crazy expensive areas in the US with equivalent climates.


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## joaquinx

Need to know of some nice places to live in Belize. Of course, the implementation of this new law might come into force about the time Florida completes the vote count.


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## Isla Verde

The new minimum income requirements are for those entering Mexico for the first time. Will they also be required of those of us living here for several years?


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## RVGRINGO

It is looking bad for us!

Worse every day, as new information comes out.


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## makaloco

mickisue1 said:


> It makes it more of a challenge to enter, but it still means that for the majority of middle class Americans (and, I suspect, Canadians) they can live a much richer and more rewarding life than they could possibly do in the crazy expensive areas in the US with equivalent climates.


You're overlooking the large number expats who are already settled in Mexico, consider it their primary residence, may even own homes, and fear they may have to leave because they don't meet the new financial requirements. If by "six month visa" you mean visitor permit, that won't work for many. In my state, for example, you can't even get a driver's license or register a car without at least FM3/No Inmigrante status, which I believe is also required for IMSS and some other forms of health insurance. Personally, I think it's too soon to panic, but I can readily understand why many people are doing so!


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## Isla Verde

makaloco said:


> You're overlooking the large number expats who are already settled in Mexico, consider it their primary residence, may even own homes, and fear they may have to leave because they don't meet the new financial requirements. If by "six month visa" you mean visitor permit, that won't work for many. In my state, for example, you can't even get a driver's license or register a car without at least FM3/No Inmigrante status, which I believe is also required for IMSS and some other forms of health insurance. Personally, I think it's too soon to panic, but I can readily understand why many people are doing so!


I've been here on a "lucrativa" visa for several years, so none of these new minimum income requirements apply to me, or do they?


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## joaquinx

Isla Verde said:


> I've been here on a "lucrativa" visa for several years, so none of these new minimum income requirements apply to me, or do they?


I was wondering that myself, although I'm not on that type of visa. What of the rule that you have to employ five Mexicans in your business? 

Any restrictions on Student Visas?


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## makaloco

Isla Verde said:


> I've been here on a "lucrativa" visa for several years, so none of these new minimum income requirements apply to me, or do they?


Don't know, sorry, because I've only looked at the parts that specifically apply to retirees seeking permanent residence. The document I've been reading is here:
Documento sin título


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## mickisue1

There are restrictions for students, but not so stringent.

Makaloco, I understand the panic for some, but I think it's too soon to do so, as well. My comment was from the imagined POV of the government, not the people who wonder if they'll have to leave.

Given that the property requirement is so far above the value of most, really of the homes in MX, I would imagine that there will be a way for those already living in their homes to get some sort of waiver. 

But who knows?


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## Isla Verde

Once all of the details have been published, I'll be making a visit to my friendly immigration lawyer.


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## mickisue1

Here, without USD translation, is the student income section:

"2. Economic solvency to cover the amount of the tuition and housing costs and maintenance during their stay in the national territory, through:
i. Original and photocopy of proof of investments or accounts with balance minimum monthly average equivalent to twenty thousand days of minimum wage general existing in the Federal District, during the last twelve months, or
ii. Original of documents proving that you have employment, pension or scholarship with a monthly income exceeding the equivalent of % unencumbered fifty days of the general minimum wage in force in the Federal District, during the six months.
The economic solvency may be accredited by the person concerned, by their parents or who exercising parental authority or guardianship, provided that they are not over the age of 25 years; or via original of the letter of the institution attesting that he has been recipient of a scholarship."


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## Isla Verde

Here's what I've been able to figure out in the case of someone like me who's been a _residente temporal_ for 2 years and on an FM3 3 years before that and who wants to change to _residente permanente_ status. Looking at the information I've copied from the online Handbook, it appears that I should be fine according to _Requisito_ #6. Loosely translated (by me) it says that if four years have passed since _residente temporal _status was granted, this should be indicated clearly on the application requesting a change of status (from _temporal _to _permanente_) as the means [_vía_] by which the change is being requested.

"...para cambio de condición de estancia en la modalidad, de residente temporal a residente permanente:

Requisitos: 
1. Original y copia del pasaporte, documento de identidad y viaje o documento oficial que haya exhibido para obtener la condición de estancia de residente temporal; 

2. Tarjeta de residente temporal, válida y vigente; 

3. Comprobante del pago de derechos por la recepción y estudio de la solicitud de cambio de condición, de conformidad con lo establecido en la Ley Federal de Derechos; 

4. En caso de sistema de puntos, deberá presentar los documentos que acrediten los indicadores y puntaje mínimo requeridos conforme al acuerdo que al efecto se publique en el Diario Oficial de la Federación; 

5. En el caso de pensionados o jubilados deberán presentar: a) Original y copia de comprobante de inversiones o cuentas bancarias con saldo promedio mensual equivalente a veinticinco mil días de salario mínimo general vigente en el Distrito Federal durante los últimos doce meses, o b) Original y copia de los documentos que demuestren que cuenta con ingresos o pensión mensual libre de gravámenes equivalente a quinientos días de salario mínimo general vigente en el Distrito Federal, durante los últimos seis meses, y 

6. En caso de que hayan transcurrido cuatro años desde que cuenta con permiso de residente temporal, deberá indicar expresamente en su solicitud de trámite que solicita el cambio por esta vía."


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## tepetapan

Nice title for a thread, especially since nothing of the sort has happened. Next thing you know it will cause panic among the expats. Oh, Wait.....never mind.


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## Isla Verde

According to a well-informed expat on another forum, the new income requirements for _rentista_ visas are only for first-time applications. A ver qué pasa ....


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## Hound Dog

This is interesting and, for us, unexpected. Fortunately, we have held "inmigrado"" or the old permanent residency status since the fall of 2010 and no longer have to achieve any income or property ownership minimums at all in order to qualify for ongoing and unquestioned permanent residency status. The new minimum income and accumulated wealth status requirements are certainly reasonable to say the least at least as preliminarily published. Frankly, if one cannot meet these modest minimum family income and wealth requirements under the new guidelines, rural Mississippi or Texas might prove a more viable retirement option than Mexico. Perhaps a modest home in rural Mozambique, Zambia or Guatemala. It seems only logical tio me that Mexico should be trying these days to seek to upgrade the financial well-being of those allowed to immigrate to its shores. This is not a NOBBER soup kitchen.


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## tepetapan

Isla Verde said:


> According to a well-informed expat on another forum, the new income requirements for _rentista_ visas are only for first-time applications. A ver qué pasa ....


 According to my source, a well know wizard who lives in Oz, anyone who really knows the truth is not talking. When you know you do not know then you are on the right track, on the other hand when you do not know that you do not know but offer advice and direction things like this thread occur...Let me know when the first retiree is forced out of mexico due to the new laws. Until then can´t we complain about the monthly Pemex increases as they do on other forums...for the past 24 months.


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## Isla Verde

tepetapan said:


> According to my source, a well know wizard who lives in Oz, anyone who really knows the truth is not talking. When you know you do not know then you are on the right track, on the other hand when you do not know that you do not know but offer advice and direction things like this thread occur...Let me know when the first retiree is forced out of mexico due to the new laws. Until then can´t we complain about the monthly Pemex increases as they do on other forums...for the past 24 months.


Sage advice, indeed, from the Wizard of Wherever.


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## RVGRINGO

There is hope:

If 'or' is the operative word; there may be an option for those of us who have many years on the old FM3, no inmigrante and/or inmigrante visas. If they consider them equal to 'residente temporal', the new temporary resident visa, then it appears that those with 4 or more years will qualify for permanent status without having to meet any other new requirements. 

I sure hope so! Stay tuned.


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## sparks

Sure looks like either noinmigrante or inmigrante should qualify for time served .... but there is still regional interpretation which seems to have happened in Guanajuato again



> II. Las personas extranjeras documentadas con forma migratoria de No inmigrante, se equiparan al residente temporal debiendo considerarse las prórrogas que tengan efectivas a la entrada en vigor de la Ley de Migración, y
> III. Las personas extranjeras documentadas con forma migratoria de Inmigrante, se equiparan al residente temporal debiendo considerar los refrendos que tengan efectivos a la entrada en vigor de la Ley de Migración.


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## sparks

> The new minimum income and accumulated wealth status requirements are certainly reasonable to say the least at least as preliminarily published. Frankly, if one cannot meet these modest minimum family income and wealth requirements under the new guidelines, rural Mississippi or Texas might prove a more viable retirement option than Mexico.


Anyone that qualifies for the old $12-1300us requirements is spending almost all that in Mexico every month. Raising that limit by almost $800us is going to accomplish what .... gringos spending less money in Mexico and less gringos in Mexico. Many retirees are on fixed incomes .... and you are not. Next best thing to racism pedejo


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## diablita

sparks said:


> Anyone that qualifies for the old $12-1300us requirements is spending almost all that in Mexico every month. Raising that limit by almost $800us is going to accomplish what .... gringos spending less money in Mexico and less gringos in Mexico. Many retirees are on fixed incomes .... and you are not. Next best thing to racism pedejo


I agree with you completely. In my barrio I know I spend a hell of a lot more than neighbors and I also lend them money. If the new income requirements are correct they will end my stay here. Makes no sense. And I think you meant to write "*******". The wealthy have no compassion for us poorer folks. I see why you misspelled it!


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## mickisue1

Less than $1900/month is not wealthy. I realize that, because in this country one cannot count on Medicare to pay for all of one's healthcare, and because the idea of assuring that retirees who worked their entire lives have enough to live on is an idea for the weak and the "socialists", there are retirees who live on (or try to live on) much less.

But it's not reasonable to ask Mexico, a country with plenty of poor people of its own, to take up the slack for the failings of their far richer neighbor. Those of you who are currently in MX have the advantage that it appears that you will be able to stay if you are already there legally. 

It's not nice to stir up fear of things that have not happened, nor are, based on the information we have to date, likely happen.

Those of us for whom living in MX is still in a dreamed of and eagerly awaited future now know what our parameters will be. And that's far better than not knowing, isn't it?


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## edgeee

mickisue1 said:


> Less than $1900/month is not wealthy. I realize that, because in this country one cannot count on Medicare to pay for all of one's healthcare, and because the idea of assuring that retirees who worked their entire lives have enough to live on is an idea for the weak and the "socialists", there are retirees who live on (or try to live on) much less.
> 
> But it's not reasonable to ask Mexico, a country with plenty of poor people of its own, to take up the slack for the failings of their far richer neighbor. Those of you who are currently in MX have the advantage that it appears that you will be able to stay if you are already there legally.
> 
> It's not nice to stir up fear of things that have not happened, nor are, based on the information we have to date, likely happen.
> 
> Those of us for whom living in MX is still in a dreamed of and eagerly awaited future now know what our parameters will be. And that's far better than not knowing, isn't it?


Well said. In my case, wait and see is about the same thing i've been doing: waiting period. It's different tho, because i never really planned ahead of just the 180 day tourist Plan A, and even that may not work out. The thing about change is that it never takes a break. It may seem to wax and wane, but that depends on which side of the wave you are on. Some ride the wave, others flee it.
This new data could, and maybe should, be viewed toward how it went the last (or 2-3) time big news aroused concern - and how those concerns compare with what really happened.

It does look dire. 
If early estimates are accurate, going beyond the 180 visa will never be an option for me, but i had never figured i would live past that anyway.
I liked the idea of it, but i was never counting on it.

My thoughts and hopes and prayers go out for those caught in a tighter box. 
It makes no sense to panic, but some of us still do it; and anyone can when the sides of the box squeeze too hard.

Somehow, i don't see any value for Mexico to force out expats who are already established contributors to Mx. economy and society. It might be the early stages of attempts to extract more expat $. But my guess is that it's a way to stem the tide of immigrants who contribute very little to the welfare of Mexican citizens.
If that's what it is, i see nothing wrong with it.
And it shouldn't have much impact on veteran expats, but i'm not saying it won't. Wait and see.
I do understand that this will likely create major problems for those who are not already living in Mexico.
The border just got a lot taller.

One things for sure this thread won't die off anytime soon.
_I'll make that prediction._


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## conorkilleen

Hound Dog said:


> This is not a NOBBER soup kitchen.


HA. Spot on. I was actually surprised a few years ago that the income requirement was so low and 2k per month is definitely NOT rich or poor. Its what I would expect to need to live on in a foreign country.

I hope that for the residents that are already here get some sort of waiver if they don't meet the requirements, however I think this will thin the heard of newcomers that are in fact looking at Mexico as a "soup kitchen".


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## sparks

soup kitchen ? At whatever income level people are paying their way

Someone in Mazatlan reported she was able to apply for permanent residence with 4 years on her FM3. Manzanillo only required 3 months copies of bank statements


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## joaquinx

conorkilleen said:


> I hope that for the residents that are already here get some sort of waiver if they don't meet the requirements, however I think this will thin the heard of newcomers that are in fact looking at Mexico as a "soup kitchen".


Give a person a few extra bucks and this is what you get. :wave: It must be tiring to live among the poor.


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## conorkilleen

joaquinx said:


> Give a person a few extra bucks and this is what you get. :wave: It must be tiring to live among the poor.


What? I thought I was doing well by with keeping with the theme of this thread? "Blowing things out of proportion."


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## johnmex

IMHO, the new regulations are aimed at keeping working age Central Americans and Chinese from getting a FM3 or FM2, not forcing retirees out of the country. That being said, there may be unexpected results along the way...


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## kathiw1

*Not Looking For A "Soup Kitchen"*

I have great respect and appreciation for the posters here. I have to say, though, that this thread is giving me some trouble. We have been planning a return to Mexico within the next year.

I'm not sure that looking at folks that may have less to spend...say, in line with present regs...as looking for a soup kitchen in Mexico, is fair or even correct. I realize some people come with wildly unrealistic expectations, but...

I don't know how people who find they can't make it are a burden on Mexico. Mexico just doesn't work that way. These folks just have to high-tail back north.

My experience staying in Mexico was that - on about 900$ p/month - I lived in a somewhat poorer neighbourhood among my Mexican friends, pretty much doing the things they did. I shopped in local stores of all kinds, payed a local teacher to tutor me in Spanish, payed rent, joined a small gym, helped kids with their homework, ate out sometimes, had a contigency for medical expenses, as well as insurance from Canada, etc.,etc. .

Point being, I certainly didn't 'take' from Mexico. I payed my way, and added where I could. Now, I'm not recommending this as a living amount, and it was six years ago. It can be done, but it's tough. It's the suggestion that many people with less than two thousand dollars p/month have a 'soup kitchen' mentality and aren't contributing to Mexico is hard for me to understand.

Aren't most of us there because we love Mexico - whatever the income? Also, what happens if the bridge is drawn up and the present Expat pop. starts to decrease through aging, making it very difficult for new expats to come in? It's Mexico's loss.

Canada has made it almost impossible for the average Mexican to visit on a Visa. This is a big loss for Canada, in my opinion. 

Mexico will do what it will. My husband and I may be looking at other countries who have a somewhat more modest requirements. It's breaking my heart to think of because my heart is always in Mexico.

If I have misunderstood any comments, please forgive me. This isn't intended as a 'hit' on anyone...just wanted to talk about the subject in general.


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## cuylers5746

*New Mexican Immigration Law*

Hi HoundDog;

*New Mexican Immigration Law;* *Forced out of Mexico? *
I'll have to go to Immigration this month and ask them what pertains to me having been on FM3 for many years. I have a couple of reflections for others based upon unique experience. I have a Federal Diputada for a cunada. So, I've been getting a lot more interested seeing how they operate and what they're doing.

There's been some excellent information put forth by other posters, but I wanted to put in my 2 pesos worth explaining what I think is behind all of this?

Mexico is a "Fledgling Democracy". It's learning the ropes and making it's best efforts to be a good World Citizen. This whole new Immigration thing came about as the result of two things (in my opinion from what I've been listening to).

1.) The Socialists in the Government, whining about the poor Guatamalans, Hondurans, Salvadorans, Nicaraguans plight as they "Illegally" enter Mexico on their way to a free train ride to the USA border and then try and get across. They whined and cried for these poor souls instead of putting up billboards at their southern border and explaining "No Jobs in USA, Depression Going on", and "You got $4000.00 USD for a Coyote to get you across the USA Border, as there is now a 700+ mile fence making it impossible to cross, and 3500 border agents to keep you out?" In our town there's been so many thousands of families that have had to return to Mexico because they lost their jobs in USA and home's they were lured to buy with $0 downpayment and no qualifying loans (and in the case of B of A, actually putting up Spanish Adds in Spanish Language Radio Stations, saying come on down you can own a home). Well everyone in this town has been affected through a relative some how - that rarely do you see anyone giving a peso to these Latin American refugees as they stand at the railroad track crossing with their hand out begging on their way to the USA. Local residents don't want to cruelly encourage them by prolonging their flight and hardship on their way north. I guess by such action, their saying go back to your pueblo.

So these Socialists actually got the Mexican Congress to approve by vote, to allow them to stay on Refugee Status in Mexico as long as they want, no income requirements taking jobs away from destitute Mexican's AND giving them free Medical Care!!! Mexican's don't get Free Medical Care, they have to be working at a legit job in order to get IMSS, ISSTE and then they have to pay part of their salary for that Medical Care. Like Mexico is a super rich country or something???

2.) El Congresso, tried to conform more to certain United Nations requested requirements for Immigrants and Refugees.

3.) I bet they would be very hard pressed at Immigration to NOT grant anyone not meeting the other requirements status as a "Refugee", ******, Canadian or not. Don't meet the Income requirements, demand to stay as a Refugee.

That and coupled with the fact that many, many of the Diputados are political appointees mainly for their past canvassing duties, some never held a job in their life and making these big decisions. Some coming out of really little Pueblitos, never lived in a City in their life, not educated and making very important decisions for a dynamic modern economic society of all of Mexico. Don't get me wrong they have some incredibly smart, intelligent, educated Diputados and Senatores too. So, there's definitely going to be some hicups along the way.

The Income and house valuation requirements were probably arrived at by a couple of the above described well meaning people in some committee thinking "Americans and Canadians are rich". So they probably threw a dart, no one reviewing their decisions with any economic educations, skills or business background and it got in the law? Mind you I've read that something like 70% of all American's getting ready to retire say they "can't", due to the massive losses sustained to their home they planned on selling for retirement money (that has now been under water price wise for 4-5 years), and how their 401K's were decimated in the downturn of the economy. I'm sure no one on that committee making those decisions had a clue.
*
Next injustice coming to Mexico? The new Mexican Labor Law Reform.* This Law like the Obama Care in USA was thrust upon the Diputados and Senatores in the last 3 months of Pres. Calderon's term. Demanding that they pass it before he leaves office. Sure sounds to me like it was concocted by US Firms with Manufacturing here Maquiliadoras and European and Chinese Companies planning to put manufacturing plants here to get a 100% free pass to NAFTA, and North American Union Free Trade Agreements. Good thing for Mexico except some of the provisions (if not eliminatated before passed) will have disastrous economic effects on the poor of Mexico - which could stir up Almo and other's to near Revolution Status. Not fun to live here in that kind of environment.

Many provisions of the New Labor Law needed to happen. Including anti discrimination laws. Today, many employers put in their adds in the papers looking for employee's excluding any one over 32 years of age! Imagine that, go to college and enter the work force at 22-23 years of age and you only have 10 years to work securely to A.) Buy a house, B) Have a family, C) Plan for retirement?

But, the provisions that would create so much economic devastation on the vast poor of this Nation are the one's eliminating the salary approach to clear cut, long established labor laws here in Mexico. Mind you there are millions of Mexican's making daily salaries that aren't sufficient to live in their own home. They live stacked up with several families in the same general family home. $700 pesos per week for many manufacturing jobs (along with beneifts required by law)? Calderon's new Labor Law would turn allow companies to pay employees hourly wages, that allowing companies to let employee's go early and send them home making part of a days wages.

Imagine someone making $116.00 m.n. per day being sent home at 11:00 in the morning because of lack of business, or cancelled orders? So, here's some poor soul that's spend $30 m.n. to get to/from work on the bus and only made $43.50 m.n. for the day? 

I hear the new Labor Bill has finally passed, but will have to see what's exactly in it?

Cuyler


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## sparks

The latest wrinkle is you may be better off with an FM3 than an FM2 for time in country credit. The rules read 'residente temporal' will be give credit (old FM3) and some say does not include 'resident permanente' (old FM2) if it is taken literally. Lets hope not


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## conorkilleen

We all must remember that this in not "our" country and the government will make its own choices on how they will construct the laws pertaining to immigration. I hope it doesn't get too bad like the situation with Mexicans trying to get US tourist Visas...almost impossible like Canada. Who knows, if Mexico wants to get _too_ reciprocal with the US and visa laws (even the FMM tourist), you may find retirees entering Mexico illegally. Think about it...without judging the context and me.

We as Americans have it easy. We don't want their poor leaching of us and they don't want our rich leaching off them.


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## cuylers5746

Hi kathiw1;

No, I think you got the gist of most of the posts right. I have to agree with your statements.

Yea, one of the posters sounded like some kind of elitist, that probably doesn't even live in Mexico - but some "****** Gulch" somewhere in the middle of Mexico?

I've known young couples living here in Tepic that have lived paying rent for a 3 bedroom apartment and all other expenses a few years ago for $550.00 USD equivalent. I have a neighbor a nurse from Minnesota who came down here volunteering for many years working for a Church Hospital, married a Mexican and retired here on very sparse income. Not an asset for Mexico?

I think you need to read my just previous post of what I think is going on. These new rules make no sense. I'd give it 6-12 months then visit an Mexican Immigration Office during one of your vacations and ask them - what finally settled out after all the dust was settled?

Here's the economic back ground that is "reality", that butt's up against these new requirements in this law.

1.) Millions of Mexican's (Paisano's) families have had to return to Mexico due to lack of jobs in US with this
World Wide 240 year event Depression, and loss of the home they were paying for in USA. In our town, I'd estimate it alone to be 3-4K. Figure each family has 4-5 people? That adds up. But, what it really means to
Mexico is that it means 3-4K of families that were here left behind as they went to work in USA and sent money home each month for them to live on. At one time before the US downturn in Mexico, the actual "Remissions" from USA back to Mexico was the 2nd largest income stream for all of Mexico right behind the income from sale of their Oil overseas. So, this has had a devistating impact on many areas in Mexico.

2.) Like you say, dewindling amount of retired American's, Canadians in Mexico is now even going to hurt the
Mexican Economy further.


Just dumb, dumb and dumber policy - if it really get's carried out as described for the Mexican Economy. I mean and all of this comes on top of the very decimated numbers of tourists not coming here due to the Drug Cartel Wars. How to put a gun to your head and pull the trigger?

Like I say - give it 6-12 months, then on one of your trips south visit a Mexican Immigration Office, explain your family situation and economics and see if you qualify.

Mexico is a country run on so much common sense (compared to some other countries), that I don't think these provisions will prevail. But it might take a little time for heads in Government to wake up?

Cuyler


----------



## StevenO

Name any law in Mexico that isn't fudged 75% of the time when somebody is caught.


----------



## AlanMexicali

cuylers5746 said:


> Hi kathiw1;
> 
> No, I think you got the gist of most of the posts right. I have to agree with your statements.
> 
> Yea, one of the posters sounded like some kind of elitist, that probably doesn't even live in Mexico - but some "****** Gulch" somewhere in the middle of Mexico?
> 
> I've known young couples living here in Tepic that have lived paying rent for a 3 bedroom apartment and all other expenses a few years ago for $550.00 USD equivalent. I have a neighbor a nurse from Minnesota who came down here volunteering for many years working for a Church Hospital, married a Mexican and retired here on very sparse income. Not an asset for Mexico?
> 
> I think you need to read my just previous post of what I think is going on. Thesenew rules make no sense. I'd give it 6-12 months then visit an Mexican Immigration Office during one of your vacations and ask them - what finally settled out after all the dust was settled?
> 
> Here's the economic back ground that is "reality", that butt's up against these new requirements in this law.
> 
> 1.) Millions of Mexican's (Paisano's) families have had to return to Mexico due to lack of jobs in US with this
> World Wide 240 year event Depression, and loss of the home they were paying for in USA. In our town, I'd estimate it alone to be 3-4K. Figure each family has 4-5 people? That adds up. But, what it really means to
> Mexico is that it means 3-4K of families that were here left behind as they went to work in USA and sent money home each month for them to live on. At one time before the US downturn in Mexico, the actual "Remissions" from USA back to Mexico was the 2nd largest income stream for all of Mexico right behind the income from sale of their Oil overseas. So, this has had a devistating impact on many areas in Mexico.
> 
> 2.) Like you say, dewindling amount of retired American's, Canadians in Mexico is now even going to hurt the
> Mexican Economy further.
> 
> 
> Just dumb, dumb and dumber policy - if it really get's carried out as described for the Mexican Economy. I mean and all of this comes on top of the very decimated numbers of tourists not coming here due to the Drug Cartel Wars. How to put a gun to your head and pull the trigger?
> 
> Like I say - give it 6-12 months, then on one of your trips south visit a Mexican Immigration Office, explain your family situation and economics and see if you qualify.
> 
> Mexico is a country run on so much common sense (compared to some other countries), that I don't think these provisions will prevail. But it might take a little time for heads in Government to wake up?
> 
> Cuyler


At our 3 building, a 200 unit 55 and older condo complex in San Diego the new HOA board turned out a set of new regulations that were indeed NOT SLACK. This was contested by owners and renters alike and in the end they had to add a "Grandfather Clause" which applied all the strict regulations to new owners and new renters only from that date on, except the one keeping the complex public areas, except the gazebo and inside the condos Smoke Free and eliminated the new regs. to the ones who already owned and rented there previouly. [I feel the new board members are a bunch of Republicans  ]

This "might" happen here with long time residents ... just a thought of mine. Alan


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## conorkilleen

cuylers5746 said:


> Hi kathiw1;
> 
> 
> Yea, one of the posters sounded like some kind of elitist, that probably doesn't even live in Mexico - but some "****** Gulch" somewhere in the middle of Mexico?
> 
> 
> 
> Cuyler



I can only assume you are talking about me? No, I don't live in Lake Chapala.

If you think I sound elitist, just wait till LF wakes up and starts posting.


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## Isla Verde

conorkilleen said:


> I can only assume you are talking about me? No, I don't live in Lake Chapala.


Of course, you don't, since you're not a fish!


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## mickisue1

My sense, based on the number of posters who come here with a total of, maybe, five or ten posts, and the vast number who DO live in MX and don't post here, is that, while the posters here are not looking to use Mexico as a "soup kitchen", there are a lot who would, if they could.

Why do you think that the Lake Chapala area has made it increasingly difficult for expats to get on the government sponsored insurance? Because the retirees who wanted the free coverage were bankrupting the system. 

I am not wealthy, far from it. I do plan to retire with enough to live on decently, no matter where I go. Or stay, for that matter. I won't need a house the size I currently have. It could be argued that I don't need this one anymore, but the housing prices are only starting to recover, and we want to get back to a decent selling price before we sell it.

My impression, from this forum, and others for those who are or would be expats, is that there are a large number of potential expats who look at cost of living first and nothing else second.

They also tend to be people who buy homes or rent them unseen, from internet advertisers. They may be among the many people who move to another country and leave within 6 months, because it wasn't to their liking.

Anyone who has spent significant time in MX has a good idea what they're in for, should they move there. The culling, if that's what you want to call it, of those who are looking purely for a cheaper place to live, was inevitable.

Go back through the threads, and see how many people are looking to move to MX with no skills, or with skills that won't translate into a decent living wage. Those people now have a higher fence to jump. And while many can, and do, simply overstay their 180 day visa, there are grave consequences for being caught.


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## cuylers5746

Aye AlanMexicali;

Don't even get me started on Condo Associations. Lived through that off an on for 24 years in WPB, FL.
Gives Democracy a real bad name, and Authoritarianism a good one!

Funny thing, a good friend another resident was for a term the Condo Assoc. President. He was born in Greece. One day in exasperation he confided in me; Look, Democracy was a sham, never worked for us Greeks, that's why I'm being so Autocratic on this Board. I sure left his condo with a dazed and bewildered look on my face. His thoughts have been haunting me ever since.

Looking back at what a mess the Greek Nation's Economy is in and still sliding down hill. Maybe he was right? I hear if you were a retiree there you could get your Aunt a retirement check too, even if she never worked? They have 24+% unemployment.

Cuyler


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## evafla

If not everybody knows it already, it is long and very interesting discussion
now on Chapala forum .

New Immigration law deadline - Page 11 - Ajijic/Chapala/Guadalajara - Chapala.com Webboard 
I would have a question, or two to the posters there, but for some reason,
I can not reply to that topic .
Maybe because I just registered ( does someone know, so please.., RVGringo,
maybe you, I saw you are reading this discussion right now, why I can not reply ?)

What intrigues me , are statements, about 4 or more years on FM3/FM2 ,
they say so in this case the person can be excluded from financial requirements, and obtain permanent residency . 
Someone even highlighted the line , which says so, in one of many quoted 
sources , I sort of lost track of it . 
My question : did anything change , regarding FM3 and residency, does it count right now, time wise, to have FM3 ?
We renewed our FM3 in July, and coming July, 2013 it is going to be 4 years .

regards eva


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## sparks

A story from Mazatlan 
-------------------------------- 
So we went to immigration again today. We have a 4 on the back of our FM3, and it expires on this Sunday. I gave her my stuff, she gives me what I need to take to the girl in the store, we go, she fills out our paperwork, and takes our pictures and then sends us to the bank. Now instead of us paying $1451 pesos, we pay $1000 each. Come back and get the rest of our paperwork and go back to immigration and take another number. When we get up to the window, she tells us we have applied for permanent status and this is the first of a 2 part process. (Remember, new law ~ rules started today). So, she gives us back our pictures and tells us to keep them, and a piece of paper with a website and a number. I am to check in 1 week and see when I am suppose to come back and get the 'answer'! (If I can qualify for the permanent status, but she says it will be a yes). Then I start the second process, give them $3,800 pesos per/person and my pictures and they will submit it and we will come back again to pick up our new card. The advantage is, we only have to do it that one time, and not return for 10 years. She says we can come into and out of the country, no problem. It sounds good, just hope it is as they said to us.


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## evafla

Sparks, you are simply amazing !!!

Our extension is only 3 , but we have time to July, 2013 , so I hope .

Thank you so much eva


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## RVGRINGO

Sparks' post should answer your concern, Evafla.
It also confirms what I was told by INM when the new law was signed last year, and what I have read in the new rules.

By the way, FM3 or FM2 are obsolete terms, replaced by 'inmigrante' or 'no inmigrante' status. Look at your card. On the back, you'll find your residence status.


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## sag42

Good information.Well written. Thanks


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## edgeee

Ditto. To Sparks and others as well.
I love it when a plan comes together. Not my plan, mind you, but the plan of the people who put this forum together. I just subscribe to it. I want to add to it, but that's subjective, and as we all know, opinions and facts are the same thing, so we automatically disregard any and all statistics we don't like. 
_And besides if you add math and logic into the mix, it spoils the surprise._

Sharing information to benefit all participants probably would be called 'socialistic' by some but i call it common sense. 
_All word nerds, please note how 'common' and 'sense' each carry added significance by branching into other directions - which are all relevant, by the way - and yet they manage to find a path to converge at some point in time. In fact they do it constantly, and that's why life is a . . . no wait, i can't say that._


I apologize. For a while there i was John/John (Corey or McClain) or more accurately Demille. And you just can't do that in a forum, but it's hard as hell not to.

Well, at least it is for me and other nuts of such ilk.

But that's what happens when you tell the Incredulous Bulk that, "No, Anger Management Class is not one night a week for twenty-five weeks, it's five nights a week for five weeks, and then five straight days of looking for a lazy loser who you may wish to help in some way."

Such things are helpful but annoying. And you wouldn't like me when i'm annoyed.
Wait, have you ever been annoid?
Noids are like lerts. The world needs more noids and lerts.


No wait, i was channeling Groucho Marx.

_Just a light moment to take your mind off the troubles you face._


----------



## eileens

I'm a new bee on this, and moving to Mexico (Ajijic) is a long term goal. I lost almost all in the real estate bust, but Will have an income of about 2300 from Social Security and investments when I'm 66...5.5 years from now. My boyfriends social security is much lower...about 900. On 3200 a month, we can easily rent a modest place and have leftover...not lots but can survive, which we couldn't in California. Been reading all we can and plan to take several exploratory trips to make sure this is the way to go....but with these new income regulations and us not being married....where will that leave him? Would it be any different if we were married? Thanks.


----------



## Longford

eileens said:


> I'm a new bee on this, and moving to Mexico (Ajijic) is a long term goal. I lost almost all in the real estate bust, but Will have an income of about 2300 from Social Security and investments when I'm 66...5.5 years from now. My boyfriends social security is much lower...about 900. On 3200 a month, we can easily rent a modest place and have leftover...not lots but can survive, which we couldn't in California. Been reading all we can and plan to take several exploratory trips to make sure this is the way to go....but with these new income regulations and us not being married....where will that leave him? Would it be any different if we were married? Thanks.


Maybe I'm misreading the discussion and the new procedures, but although you may meet the income requirements sufficient to receive a residency visa, your boyfriend won't. He wouldn't meet the prior/current requirements, either.


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## eileens

So,,what if we were married?
Or would he have to go back to US every 6 months? He already would have to go once a year to keep his green card in US.


----------



## Longford

conorkilleen said:


> We all must remember that this in not "our" country and the government will make its own choices on how they will construct the laws pertaining to immigration. I hope it doesn't get too bad like the situation with Mexicans trying to get US tourist Visas...almost impossible like Canada. Who knows, if Mexico wants to get _too_ reciprocal with the US and visa laws (even the FMM tourist), you may find retirees entering Mexico illegally. Think about it...without judging the context and me.
> 
> We as Americans have it easy. We don't want their poor leaching of us and they don't want our rich leaching off them.


I only wish the United States would treat Mexicans who are legally in the country the same as Mexico treats its citizens legally in Mexico. The Mexicans in the USA (legally) have the advantage.

Regarding USA or Canadian expats entering Mexico illegally: huge numbers do that already. Deadbeats. People who don't have enough income to qualify under the old rules, not to mention the new ones. And, yes, they're leeches. Mexico should eject them and that may be one of the intents of the new INM regs.


----------



## Longford

cuylers5746 said:


> Mexico is a country run on so much common sense (compared to some other countries) ...


I'm going to assume you're joking.


----------



## Isla Verde

Longford said:


> Regarding USA or Canadian expats entering Mexico illegally: huge numbers do that already. Deadbeats. People who don't have enough income to qualify under the old rules, not to mention the new ones. And, yes, they're leeches. Mexico should eject them and that may be one of the intents of the new INM regs.


What about expats who've lived here legally under the old rules but don't have an income high enough to stay here anymore. Should they be ejected too?


----------



## Lorij

Ok guys I have been away for about a week, because Dad's been in the hospital, so I am behind. On reading Sparks original post, I need some clarification obviously. I understand the income requirements as listed, but I am unsure does this mean someone has to meet ALL these requirements or one or more? My main question is would I qualify after marrying my fiance there in Mex? Based on the one req ??**Proof of a any familiar bond with another Temporary or Permanent Resident or a marital (or equivalent) bond with a Mexican; Thanks everyone, this is all very confusing. :confused2:

Also I have checked the Mexico Consulate in Atlanta site and they now have up on their site the applications and new requirements as well. A couple of weeks ago I called and spoke with them there and I was told that 
when the laws went into effect in Mexico that they would then begin issuing the Residente Temporal visas here to US Citizens that are going to Mex with the intent to stay longer than 180 days and meet requirements. I am wondering if it may be easier to get here than abroad, just a thought. I may make an appointment when they start taking them. Because if I can get mine here before I go, that would be great, not sure. I will keep you all posted!


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## ptrichmondmike

*Dazed and confused...*

Ummm...I just saw this thread and have been out of the forum loop for a while, so I am not sure what I'm reading here.

I have been planning to relocate sometime next year, probably in the fall. My SS income will be about $1500/month. I have always intended to go the "180 days and renew" route, rather than seeking more permanent residency. Is this option still okay, or is it being restricted?

I'd hate to have to move to Guatemala instead....

(If necessary, I will probably have the option of working remotely on contract for my current employer, perhaps 10 hours/week, which would get me an additional $1200/month. But I'm tired of work, and awfully lazy, and would rather not if I don't have to.)


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## joaquinx

ptrichmondmike said:


> I have always intended to go the "180 days and renew" route, rather than seeking more permanent residency. Is this option still okay, or is it being restricted?


You can still do this, however, there is no "renew." You will still have to go to the border and acquire a "new" tourist permit.


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## ptrichmondmike

Thanks Joaquin...that is what I meant, of course. That's a relief. As much as I like Atitlan and Antigua, I don't want to live there!


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## RVGRINGO

Here's the 'grain of salt':
In the example posted by Sparks; the person from Mazatlan had a '4' on the back of his card. That is the 'Refrendo', or countersigned frequency, indicating the completion of 4 renewals and five years on that status. Therefore, they were eligible for 'Residente Permanente'.

My concern is still about having a decade on FM3/no inmigrante and, now, just a 'Refrendo 1" on my card. Will they count everything, as I've been told before, or will I have to get to 'Refrendo 4' before becoming eligible. That worries folks my age. The only good news is that there will be no more need to prove the financials. We could no longer qualify, under the new rules, unless there is relief in the yet unpublished 'point system'.

The situation for new arrivals is still a bit confusing. Do they need to start at a consulate, or is that only for citizens of countries where getting a visa before arriving is required? I'm not clear on that.


----------



## Isla Verde

RVGRINGO said:


> Here's the 'grain of salt':
> In the example posted by Sparks; the person from Mazatlan had a '4' on the back of his card. That is the 'Refrendo', or countersigned frequency, indicating the completion of 4 renewals and five years on that status. Therefore, they were eligible for 'Residente Permanente'.
> 
> My concern is still about having a decade on FM3/no inmigrante and, now, just a 'Refrendo 1" on my card. Will they count everything, as I've been told before, or will I have to get to 'Refrendo 4' before becoming eligible. That worries folks my age. The only good news is that there will be no more need to prove the financials. We could no longer qualify, under the new rules, unless there is relief in the yet unpublished 'point system'.


My No Inmigrante card has "Prórroga 4" on the back, which reflects the total time I've been here, 3 years on an FM3 and now 1 year on the current visa. We don't know if the person from Mazatlan had 4 "prórrogas" or "refrendos" on his or her FM3, do we?


----------



## makaloco

Isla Verde said:


> My No Inmigrante card has "Prórroga 4" on the back, which reflects the total time I've been here, 3 years on an FM3 and now 1 year on the current visa. We don't know if the person from Mazatlan had 4 "prórrogas" or "refrendos" on his or her FM3, do we?


My Inmigrante card says "Refrendo 4". In the six-plus years I've been dealing with INM, "prórroga" has been used for FM3/No Inmigrante and "refrendo" for FM2/Inmigrante. I'm not sure of the legal distinction between the terms, but if the card says "Refrendo", it's likely to be an Inmigrante card.


----------



## RVGRINGO

I think they said '4' and 'card'. I don't think they specified no inmigrante or inmigrante, although it should not make any difference. Therefore, my hope is that any combination of FM3, FM2, no inmigrante and/or inmigrante, all now equivalent to the new 'residente temporal', should count as 4 or more years and qualify the holder for 'residente permanente'. That seems logical.


----------



## Isla Verde

RVGRINGO said:


> I think they said '4' and 'card'. I don't think they specified no inmigrante or inmigrante, although it should not make any difference. Therefore, my hope is that any combination of FM3, FM2, no inmigrante and/or inmigrante, all now equivalent to the new 'residente temporal', should count as 4 or more years and qualify the holder for 'residente permanente'. That seems logical.


Before writing my previous post, I checked Sparks' post "A story from Mazatlan". It did not specify if the 4 referred to "prórrogas" or "refrendos". I agree with your reasoning here, RV, but unfortunately what may seem logical to to us may not seem logical to the INM bureaucracy.


----------



## evafla

I agree with RVGringo in full .

The most likely this is the most burning question now , burning in meaning, asked by many,
are numbered couples, and singles retirees in Mexico , who are on an old FM3 , or newer, 
no inmigrante permits in Mexico .
I guess , quite large number of them qualified financially under old rules,
even having some margin , but right now , they can be short ,
whatever amount in dollars it is .
We are falling into this category , we are not married, 
and we need to show income for each of us separately , like single people .

Please , if someone is in situation I described ,
and is due for extension of the permit, and was able to figure out,
what the options are, please share with us !!!

thank you very much e


----------



## RVGRINGO

I think the next week or two will give us the answers we need, as folks actually go to INM for renewals and change of status to 'residente permanente'. If they can accurately report on the procedure, we'll know.
However, it bothers me that so many don't even know their current status, or other details, since they use 'facilitators' and just pocket the 'card' they are given.
So, will someone please report their experience, or quiz any friends about theirs and confirm the details.?


----------



## makaloco

RVGRINGO said:


> My concern is still about having a decade on FM3/no inmigrante and, now, just a 'Refrendo 1" on my card. Will they count everything, as I've been told before, or will I have to get to 'Refrendo 4' before becoming eligible.


A good friend of mine is in the same boat, although I think she has "Refrendo 2" on her Inmigrante card. She was here for 12 years or more on FM3 before upgrading. Her expiration is in November, so she'll probably be going next week. I'll try to report on what happens.


----------



## sparks

I found a copy of my 2006 book and application incase my first 5 years is not in the computer - we'll see.

I renew in 2 months so can't pad my income back six months. I'm going to show them an IRA that I can adjust for monthly payments .... but as a home owner I don't need anywhere near $2000 so give myself less


----------



## Isla Verde

sparks said:


> I renew in 2 months so can't pad my income back six months.


I wonder if the fact that many expat have padded their incomes to be eligible for a rentista visa is one reason for the new requirement to show six months of income.


----------



## RVGRINGO

It will certainly put a stop to the 'creative juggling of accounts'.


----------



## evafla

My Life in Mxico - Main Directo


Starting to be more and more interesting .

Where did you find about 6 statements ?

On Rolly website says 12 months !!!

Does someone have a link to this rule expressed in Spanish , in official document ?


e


----------



## mickisue1

evafla said:


> My Life in Mxico - Main Directo
> 
> 
> Starting to be more and more interesting .
> 
> Where did you find about 6 statements ?
> 
> On Rolly website says 12 months !!!
> 
> Does someone have a link to this rule expressed in Spanish , in official document ?
> 
> 
> e


Upthread here, on the first page, is a link to the official document in Spanish. There's an option to the right of the page to translate into English, if needed.


----------



## evafla

After reading one more time , and more careful what Rolly wrote, ( I included link on the top of my previous post) it seems like 
old FM3 and new No Inmigrante are good for nothing , does not matter how much money you were showing , or you can show, unless someone is perfectly comfortable with going back to US/Canada and apply in Mexican consulate over there , showing income $1950 for single person .
Does anyone have some thoughts/information about it ?

e


----------



## FHBOY

Yesterday there were new procedures and regs finally posted by the government with major changes, including the fact that one can no longer obtain their [formerly FM3] in Mexico by converting their FMM [formerly FMT] it must be gotten at a consulate in your native country. This, to me is major folks.

You can find details about it at:
Getting a visa to live in Mexico under (not an FM3/FM2) » My Mexican Lawyer

I've asked anyone with first hand knowledge of this change to help all of us out, as the community that we are. I will be calling the DC Consulate this week, and if I find out anything more, I'll post it.

Buena Suerte - Good Luck.


----------



## sparks

Going back to the US only applies to new applicants who used to be able to change from an FMM to an FM3 in Mexico.

Don't think Rolly would say 12 months ... it's 6 and used to be 3

Original and copy of proof of investments or bank accounts with average Monthly equivalent to twenty thousand days of general minimum wage in the District Federal during the last twelve months, 
or 
Original and copies of documents showing that pension income has higher monthly equivalent of five hundred (400)days' wages current minimum in the Federal District, for the past six months.


----------



## evafla

Quick first read -- Grandfathering at your next renewal time

Inmigrante: It appears (not fully verified) that an Inmigrante will have that time applied to the new Residente Temporal. If you have 4 years as an Inmigrante, you can go directly to Residente Terminante.
*
No Inmigrante folks are not so lucky. Their time does not carry forward. In fact, they cannot move directly to a Residente Temporal. They will be issued an ordinary Visitante good for 180 days. At that point they will have 2 options:

1) Continue to live with a Visitante by returning to the border every 180 days to get a new Visitante and a new permit for the car.

2) Return to the home country and apply for a Residente Temporal at a Mexican consulate.*

Sparks I like your entries, and I found them very instrumental .
However , what above is from Rolly site .

regards e


----------



## FHBOY

Since I am not there yet, I do not seem to have a horse in this race. As a Newbie, though, the I do not see (maybe naivete on my part) what problem these new regs makes for people like me.

Mexico seems to be asking of it's immigrants what the USA asked of it's in the 19th and early 20th century: that you are welcomed into our country as long we we can be sure that you will not become a ward of the state and have to rely on us to take care of you. I know that my ancestors arriving in the USA had to meet that requirement.

And what it that requirement? EITHER a verifiable monthly income of $1,950 USD *OR* verifiable investments and/or bank balances over $95,000 USD. What is wrong with that? If one goes to Mexico, or anywhere for that matter and builds their acceptance on a falsehood, eventually it will catch up with them.

I have read the term "soup kitchen" on this forum - and it is an abhorrent idea. Many expats from the USA and Canada, I assume, moved to Mexico for many reasons, not the least of which was a cost of living that was affordable. If that is the case, then why, all of a sudden can't they afford it or verify that they meet the standards? Was it, as I said in the last paragraph, they couldn't when they came and thought the lax and/or irregular enforcement of the law would allow them to "get by" or "slip through" the cracks?

Most people, I also assume, are like me - they follow the rules, they do the correct thing and the minority could be thrown into the latter category - the "get by-ers".

So my last point: What do we as an existing and future expat community want to be seen as: law abiding upstanding members of their (and it is theirs) society or a bunch of devious foreigners?

I'm sorry for those who may not be able to meet the new regs standards...I really am, maybe the 2008 crash destroyed their ability. But I hold no sympathy for those who came/went to Mexico knowing full well that they did not meet the requirements. Wouldn't the USA call these people "illegal aliens" and try an rout them from the country? And would you not agree with them?


----------



## joaquinx

FHBOY said:


> And what it that requirement? EITHER a verifiable monthly income of $1,950 USD *OR* verifiable investments and/or bank balances over $95,000 USD. What is wrong with that? If one goes to Mexico, or anywhere for that matter and builds their acceptance on a falsehood, eventually it will catch up with them.
> 
> Many expats from the USA and Canada, I assume, moved to Mexico for many reasons, not the least of which was a cost of living that was affordable. If that is the case, then why, all of a sudden can't they afford it or verify that they meet the standards? Was it, as I said in the last paragraph, they couldn't when they came and thought the lax and/or irregular enforcement of the law would allow them to "get by" or "slip through" the cracks?
> 
> Most people, I also assume, are like me - they follow the rules, they do the correct thing and the minority could be thrown into the latter category - the "get by-ers".
> 
> So my last point: What do we as an existing and future expat community want to be seen as: law abiding upstanding members of their (and it is theirs) society or a bunch of devious foreigners?
> 
> I'm sorry for those who may not be able to meet the new regs standards...I really am, maybe the 2008 crash destroyed their ability. But I hold no sympathy for those who came/went to Mexico knowing full well that they did not meet the requirements. Wouldn't the USA call these people "illegal aliens" and try an rout them from the country? And would you not agree with them?


We DID meet the requirements and we DID follow the rules, but when you raise the requirements from 1,300 usd to 1,950 usd, some can not meet these requirements. Your post hints that we sneaked across the border full well knowing that we didn't comply with the income requirement. Take aim before you shoot.


----------



## Isla Verde

evafla said:


> No Inmigrante folks are not so lucky. Their time does not carry forward. In fact, they cannot move directly to a Residente Temporal. They will be issued an ordinary Visitante good for 180 days. At that point they will have 2 options:
> 
> 1) Continue to live with a Visitante by returning to the border every 180 days to get a new Visitante and a new permit for the car.
> 
> 2) Return to the home country and apply for a Residente Temporal at a Mexican consulate.[/B]


I've seen nothing on this site or elsewhere that says that people who've been here for several years on an FM3/No Inmigrante visa will only be eligible for a 6-month Visitante card. I have no desire to return to the border every six months to get a new visa. That seems really unfair to someone like me who has lived here for over 5 years, works and pays taxes on my Mexican income. I sure hope you misinterpreted the information you read on Rolly's site. If you haven't, I feel a panic attack coming on!


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## Isla Verde

I just tried to edit the above message, but more than 15 minutes had elapsed since I posted it and I couldn't.

Anyway, I just checked out Rolly's website and did see the information that evafla posted. If what Rolly has posted turns out to be the case, I may have to leave Mexico since there's no way I want to have to go to the border every six months to get a new Visitante visa. It would be a real slap in the face to treat me like that after over 5 years of living here, working here and paying taxes to the Mexican government. Has anyone seen any information about what will happen to people like me who are here on a No Inmigrante _lucrativa_ visa?


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## conorkilleen

joaquinx said:


> We DID meet the requirements and we DID follow the rules, but when you raise the requirements from 1,300 usd to 1,950 usd, some can not meet these requirements. Your post hints that we sneaked across the border full well knowing that we didn't comply with the income requirement. Take aim before you shoot.


Its getting ugly now. Whether you admit it or not, some expats do want to use Mexico as a low cost living option. Its only fair that they pay their way through. For the people living here before the new regs, I am sure there is some sort of grandfather clause. relax. nobody is moving back home..............yet.


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## Isla Verde

conorkilleen said:


> Its getting ugly now. Whether you admit it or not, some expats do want to use Mexico as a low cost living option. Its only fair that they pay their way through. For the people living here before the new regs, I am sure there is some sort of grandfather clause. relax. nobody is moving back home..............yet.


The only grandfather clause I have seen quoted, translated, and interpreted applies only to those holding Inmigrante visas, not No Inmigrante visas.


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## kathiw1

mickisue1 said:


> My sense, based on the number of posters who come here with a total of, maybe, five or ten posts, and the vast number who DO live in MX and don't post here, is that, while the posters here are not looking to use Mexico as a "soup kitchen", there are a lot who would, if they could..


I get what you're saying. I do. I just hope it all shakes out a bit better than it is sounding right now, both for the people living there now, and those of us who want to get back there because we miss it every day.

And, boy, the Mexican government sure doesn't hold the only government franchise on dumb and dumber. Sigh.


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## makaloco

Isla Verde said:


> The only grandfather clause I have seen quoted, translated, and interpreted applies only to those holding Inmigrante visas, not No Inmigrante visas.


Which one/where? Preferably untranslated and uninterpreted, please, if you have the link. I've seen so many different versions that I'm lost now. The only thing that rings a bell is an unidentified "someone" from Yucatan who called an INM 800 number and supposedly was told that. I don't even recall which forum it was on.


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## Isla Verde

makaloco said:


> Which one/where? Preferably untranslated and uninterpreted, please, if you have the link. I've seen so many different versions that I'm lost now. The only thing that rings a bell is an unidentified "someone" from Yucatan who called an INM 800 number and supposedly was told that. I don't even recall which forum it was on.


I'm lost now too. I'll try to find the information I saw about people holding Inmigrante visas being able to switch to Residente Temporal (or was it Permanente?) status. I wonder if I'll be able to get through on the phone tomorrow to my lawyer.


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## Isla Verde

I found this on another website:

" . . . in the reglamento published 9/28, at the end under Transitorios: Sexto, it said:

II. Las personas extranjeras documentadas con forma migratoria de No inmigrante, se equiparan al residente temporal debiendo considerarse las prórrogas que tengan efectivas a la entrada en vigor de la Ley de Migración, y
III. Las personas extranjeras documentadas con forma migratoria de Inmigrante, se equiparan al residente temporal debiendo considerar los refrendos que tengan efectivos a la entrada en vigor de la Ley de Migración." 

This deals with those holding both No Inmigrante and Inmigrante visas. I won't attempt a translation right now - my brain is all pooped out! Here's the link to the document this information is from: 
Documento sin título .


----------



## kazslo

*EDIT: Woops, just saw Isla posted basically the same thing...*

Reading the reglamento, the Sexto Transitorio says:



> SEXTO.- *Para la aplicación de las reglas de equivalencia previstas en el artí**** sexto transitorio de la Ley de Migración, debe considerarse lo siguiente:*
> I. La condición de estancia de visitante sin permiso para realizar actividades remuneradas se equipara a la calidad de No Inmigrante en las características de turista, transmigrante, visitante distinguido, visitante provisional, ministro de culto, corresponsal, visitante en la modalidad persona de negocios, o visitante en todas las demás modalidades migratorias que no impliquen una actividad lucrativa cuando la persona extranjera se haya documentado con forma migratoria múltiple con una temporalidad de hasta ciento ochenta días. Lo anterior salvo el caso de personas
> extranjeras documentadas en alguna de las modalidades de visitante, que impliquen una actividad lucrativa en cuyo supuesto, deberán equiparse al visitante con permiso para realizar actividades remuneradas;
> *II. Las personas extranjeras documentadas con forma migratoria de No inmigrante, se equiparan al residente temporal debiendo considerarse las prórrogas que tengan efectivas a la entrada en vigor de la Ley de Migración, y*
> III. Las personas extranjeras documentadas con forma migratoria de Inmigrante, se equiparan al residente temporal debiendo considerar los refrendos que tengan efectivos a la entrada en vigor de la Ley de Migración.


I'd have translated it but I'm not 100% sure on the proper phrasing of the second paragraph. It looks like tourist = tourist, No Inmigrante = Residente Temporal considering your time already here, and Inmigrante = Residente Temporal. In my own interpretation, since the holder of a NI visa is considered equivalent to a residente temporal, your X years should count and you should be able to 'renew' your visa just as if you had a residente temporal visa. Or, if you have more than 4 years with a No Inmigrante/Inmigrante visa, you should be able to become a residente permanente because they are considered equivalent to Residente Temporal. From the "Cambio de condición de estancia de residente temporal a residente permanente" sheet on the INM website:



> El titular de la condición de estancia de residente temporal podrá cambiar a la condición de residente permanente por:
> a) Sistema de puntos;
> b) Ser jubilado o pensionado que perciba del exterior recursos suficientes que permitan vivir en territorio nacional, o
> *c) Que hayan transcurrido cuatro años desde que cuenta con permiso de residente temporal.*


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## grotton

I am currently here on a 180 day tourist visa and planned to apply for an FM3 or now a no inmigrante visa... I meet the new guidelines but what is not clear to me is if I need to return to the US to apply at a Mexican consulate or can simply apply here. Does anyone have accurate information on this? My partner of 3 years is Mexican and we have located a house we plan to buy. It seems perhaps we should delay purchasing our house until my above question is answered. I don't like the idea of having to leave Mexico to apply for my new visa status.


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## makaloco

Isla Verde said:


> I found this on another website:
> 
> " . . . in the reglamento published 9/28, at the end under Transitorios: Sexto, it said:
> 
> II. Las personas extranjeras documentadas con forma migratoria de No inmigrante, se equiparan al residente temporal debiendo considerarse las prórrogas que tengan efectivas a la entrada en vigor de la Ley de Migración, y
> III. Las personas extranjeras documentadas con forma migratoria de Inmigrante, se equiparan al residente temporal debiendo considerar los refrendos que tengan efectivos a la entrada en vigor de la Ley de Migración."
> 
> This deals with those holding both No Inmigrante and Inmigrante visas. I won't attempt a translation right now - my brain is all pooped out! Here's the link to the document this information is from:
> Documento sin título .


Thank you, but now I'm _really_ confused, because that's the exact passage that had me believing No Inmigrante years WOULD be counted/transferred. I see Kazlo came to the same conclusion. So I'm still at a loss as to how others came to the opposite conclusion. Oh well, it's sure to come up again (and again and again). I certainly hope it works out positively for you.


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## kazslo

grotton said:


> I am currently here on a 180 day tourist visa and planned to apply for an FM3 or now a no inmigrante visa... I meet the new guidelines but what is not clear to me is if I need to return to the US to apply at a Mexican consulate or can simply apply here. Does anyone have accurate information on this? My partner of 3 years is Mexican and we have located a house we plan to buy. It seems perhaps we should delay purchasing our house until my above question is answered. I don't like the idea of having to leave Mexico to apply for my new visa status.


It looks like you can only apply in an INM office if you are trying to get a visa based on family unity, from a job offer, or for humanitarian reasons:



> DECIMO QUINTO.- El Instituto recibirá las solicitudes de visa únicamente en los casos de unidad familiar, oferta de empleo o razones humanitarias.


Your partner, assuming you two are unmarried, won't qualify you based on family unity because you have less than 5 years together:



> Si se trata de la concubina o concubinario del promovente, documento otorgado ante autoridad competente del país de origen o residencia de la persona extranjera para el que se solicita visa, en original y copia, que acredite que ha vivido con el promovente en común, en forma constante y permanente por un período mínimo de cinco años, o


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## Isla Verde

makaloco said:


> Thank you, but now I'm _really_ confused, because that's the exact passage that had me believing No Inmigrante years WOULD be counted/transferred. I see Kazlo came to the same conclusion. So I'm still at a loss as to how others came to the opposite conclusion. Oh well, it's sure to come up again (and again and again). I certainly hope it works out positively for you.


I agree with you and kazlo about the correct meaning of II. and III. from "the reglamento published 9/28, at the end under Transitorios: Sexto". All of the attempts to understand what's going on have resulted in a veritable bouillaibaise of conflicting opinions and interpretations.


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## kazslo

Isla Verde said:


> All of the attempts to understand what's going on have resulted in a veritable bouillaibaise of conflicting opinions and interpretations.


We also can't forget about a yet to be published points system, which might account for some of these cases. A whole lot of hysteria because of sites posting things as facts and not including the disclaimer that these are their own interpretations.


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## grotton

The language is a little confusing to me because the English translation says Mexican consulate in mexico but the spanish seems to say Mexican consulate.


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## Longford

Isla Verde said:


> What about expats who've lived here legally under the old rules but don't have an income high enough to stay here anymore. Should they be ejected too?


Yes.


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## Longford

joaquinx said:


> You can still do this, however, there is no "renew." You will still have to go to the border and acquire a "new" tourist permit.


The 180 day permission is not intended for persons living in Mexico, or staying in excess of the 180 days. Yes, people work to skirt the law. But they do so at the risk of being caught. The language on the documents is clear. If people can't meet the requirement to live in Mexico, they should violate the rules.


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## vantexan

Longford said:


> The 180 day permission is not intended for persons living in Mexico, or staying in excess of the 180 days. Yes, people work to skirt the law. But they do so at the risk of being caught. The language on the documents is clear. If people can't meet the requirement to live in Mexico, they should violate the rules.


Really, they "should violate" the rules? Freudian slip? Looks like there's a new 6 month visa that's designed to let people live in Mexico for 6 months at a time. Guess Mexico figured out how to make money off what people were doing anyways.


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## Longford

makaloco said:


> Which one/where? Preferably untranslated and uninterpreted, please, if you have the link. I've seen so many different versions that I'm lost now. The only thing that rings a bell is an unidentified "someone" from Yucatan who called an INM 800 number and supposedly was told that. I don't even recall which forum it was on.


The challenge, for ever so long, in Mexico has been the fact that there's a lack of continuity/uniformity in the application of regulations. I don't see that changing any time soon. What's important to people in a position to apply for or renew a visa is the standards being applied in the office at which they are applying. What someone reports as their experience in Merida probably cannot be relied upon by someone in Chapala or Zacatecas, or anywhere else in Mexico. That's where the frustration builds. The unknown. If you have had a relationship, used the services of an immigration attorney in Mexico previously but not recently ... rekindle the relationship, this first year of new regs. And if you're contemplating a move to Mexico in the near term, use the services of an immigration attorney in Mexico.


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## kazslo

Longford said:


> If you have had a relationship, used the services of an immigration attorney in Mexico previously but not recently ... rekindle the relationship, this first year of new regs. And if you're contemplating a move to Mexico in the near term, use the services of an immigration attorney in Mexico.


I disagree. Unless you speak very little to no spanish, I just don't see the value in an immigration attorney. Unlike in US gov't offices, my experience with INM has always been pleasant and educational. Anytime I had a question about my situation I've gone to the office and asked, and they've always been more than helpful in explaining my options and patient. Even if you make a slight mistake on paperwork, the worst that happens is you get sent home to fix it. The whole process isn't _that_ complex that an attorney would need to make some specialized legal argument or draft some multi-page specialty document. If in doubt, just ask the people that will be enforcing the rules, and find a way to make the system work for you (if possible).


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## Isla Verde

kazslo said:


> I disagree. Unless you speak very little to no spanish, I just don't see the value in an immigration attorney. Unlike in US gov't offices, my experience with INM has always been pleasant and educational. Anytime I had a question about my situation I've gone to the office and asked, and they've always been more than helpful in explaining my options and patient. Even if you make a slight mistake on paperwork, the worst that happens is you get sent home to fix it. The whole process isn't _that_ complex that an attorney would need to make some specialized legal argument or draft some multi-page specialty document. If in doubt, just ask the people that will be enforcing the rules, and find a way to make the system work for you (if possible).


I respectfully disagree. When I first applied for an FM3, I used the services of an excellent immigration lawyer in Mexico City because I was seeking permission to work here as a free-lance English teacher but didn't have the exact credentials INM usually looked for. With the help of my attorney, I had no problems getting my visa. And though the last couple of years, the INM personnel in Mexico City have usually been helpful, this hasn't always been the case. And I speak Spanish fluently and am aware of how Mexican bureaucracies are run.


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## kazslo

Isla Verde said:


> I respectfully disagree. When I first applied for an FM3, I used the services of an excellent immigration lawyer in Mexico City because I was seeking permission to work here as a free-lance English teacher but didn't have the exact credentials INM usually looked for. With the help of my attorney, I had no problems getting my visa. And though the last couple of years, the INM personnel in Mexico City have usually been helpful, this hasn't always been the case. And I speak Spanish fluently and am aware of how Mexican bureaucracies are run.


The more I hear of other offices the more I believe that our office in Xalapa is a bit more laid back than others. In certain situations I can see how an attorney could help, and I'm interested in how he/she was actually able to get the job done for you. However, for the majority of situations, people should know that the process isn't all that complicated and that you'll likely be told at the office exactly what needs to be done.


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## makaloco

My experience has been the same as Kazlo's. Even when I first started, speaking _no_ Spanish and with our INM agents having very little English, it worked out. Since then, I've done it all myself, including the transfer from FM3 to FM2 after two years. I look at it as the opportunity to get to know the folks there and at least be a familiar face to them. But ours is a small, friendly office. I've heard/read of locations where it's much more difficult, and just about everyone uses a "facilitator". Also, if I lived far from town or had a complicated case, I might consider it. But so far there has been no need.


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## Isla Verde

Longford said:


> Yes.


That's a rather cold response.


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## TundraGreen

In all this discussion of what we might be facing in trying to stay in Mexico, I can't help but think about all the Mexicans living in the US and the hostile environment they face, generally with far fewer resources than many of the US/Canadians dealing with Mexican immigration. I have sympathy for people on both sides of the border trying to stay where they have made a life.


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## mickisue1

You know, my daughter was an illegal alien in Italy for several years, till they announced an amnesty in 2006. You had to apply between 1:30 and 1:45 pm on a certain day in January, at a website. She managed to get on 7 minutes into the time, and was about the 4500th applicant.

Luckily for her, one of the main criteria was to have an Italian employer vouch for you, and one of her students (she was, like Isla Verde, a freelance English teacher) had a husband who owned his own company.

Even so, the entire process took nearly a year, resulting in her extending her illegal status that much longer. She finally got her green card in January of 2007, and has renewed each year since. The biggest benefit to her has been that she has healthcare, and that employers (she contracts with English instruction companies, and translates technical and contractual documents) cannot use her services and not pay her, as happened several times when she was illegal.

Italy tightened their enforcement the following year, and she could easily have been forbidden to enter after a trip home, or tossed out, if found to be living there illegally.

Every country has challenges in balancing the needs of their own citizens with those of others who want to live there, and Mexico is no different. My daughter's experiences with employers in Italy gave me a first hand look at how immigrants can be misused without recourse. And the hoops she had to jump through to get the precious green card an idea of how baffling it can be to try to live in another country legally. 

It's probably premature to assume that either previous length of time will OR will not count toward a permanent resident permit, in this case. The best idea, as difficult as it may be, is to keep watching for answers, while avoiding panic.

On the other hand, to offhandedly say that people should be tossed out of their homes that they have lived in legally, some for years, some for decades, because the rules changed, is a bit coldhearted, don't you agree?

Mexico needs to get along with other countries, and it's not likely that they'll want the consulates of the US, Canada and other countries veryu publicly crying foul, when citizens of those countries come to them for help in pleading for common sense to the Mexican government.


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## Lorij

FHBoy I have contacted the consulate in Atlanta about this. I was told by someone there that they will be issuing the new Residente Temporal Visas there when the laws go into effect in Mexico. I am going to contact them again this week and see what all I need to bring with me and I am going to make an appointment there to try and get mine here before I go, I think it may be easier, I am hoping. Not sure.


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## FHBOY

*I Apologize*



joaquinx said:


> We DID meet the requirements and we DID follow the rules, but when you raise the requirements from 1,300 usd to 1,950 usd, some can not meet these requirements. Your post hints that we sneaked across the border full well knowing that we didn't comply with the income requirement. Take aim before you shoot.


 I stand remonstrated and apologize if that is what it said. It is the same broad brush used in the just past election, the one that calls many of us "white males who voted for Romney". Not all white males did, not all people like yourselves are and I do apologize. I did not mean to offend anyone who does represent the USA and Canada as good guests in Mexico.


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## Longford

kazslo said:


> If in doubt, just ask the people that will be enforcing the rules, and find a way to make the system work for you (if possible).


So, you're an expert at INM affairs, even the new rules. You understand them front and back. And you're fluent in Spanish. Fine. Good for you. Don't confuse your expertise, however, with that which may be helpful to newbies or others not so confident or fluent. And don't forget that the INM staff is new to the regulations themselves. I believe it would be foolish, and cheapskate-ish to try to navigate a complicated matter such as this one if someone is unfamiliar with new Mexican laws and regulations, dealing wiht Mexican government agencies or lacks Spanish-language fluency.


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## Longford

Isla Verde said:


> That's a rather cold response.


These people knew what the law was, and they intentionally violated it and should not be rewarded for their dirty deeds. If someone truly respects Mexico and Mexicans they will respect the form of government and laws ... or they should stay home. Yes, "cold" but realistic. :clap2:


----------



## Longford

kazslo said:


> However, for the majority of situations, people should know that the process isn't all that complicated and that you'll likely be told at the office exactly what needs to be done.


You speak as if you're living in the past, unaware of the new regulations and the uncertainty many existing and wannabe expats may face.


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## makaloco

Longford said:


> These people knew what the law was, and they intentionally violated it and should not be rewarded for their dirty deeds. If someone truly respects Mexico and Mexicans they will respect the form of government and laws ... or they should stay home. Yes, "cold" but realistic. :clap2:


Longford, I wonder if you may have misread Isla Verde's original statement. She did specify "lived here legally under the old rules".




> Originally Posted by Isla Verde ￼
> What about expats who've lived here legally under the old rules but don't have an income high enough to stay here anymore. Should they be ejected too?


----------



## Longford

makaloco said:


> Longford, I wonder if you may have misread Isla Verde's original statement. She did specify "lived here legally under the old rules".


Yes, I think I did. Thanks for mentioning that. 

My thoughts are that if the government changes the rules and decides not to provide for grandfathering a certain class of persons ... then either those persons come into compliance, petition for an exception (if possible) or leave. If there are a large number of such persons in the category then I suspect the government will make an accommodation of some sort. I further think that the the new rules are written in a way that allows the vast majority of retiree expats to qualify. There are expats in Mexico who are poor, unable to support themselves sufficiently/financially in the USA and who came to Mexico obviously because of a lower cost of living but to take advantage of government programs intended for use by poor Mexicans. I do know that many Mexicans resent this freeloading by expats. All of this is why I believe, this first year of interaction with INM under the just-announced regulations ... the wise person will seek the advice of an experienced immigration attorney in Mexico.


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## Longford

This is an almost identical discussion to this one:

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/me...mexico/131787-retirees-forced-out-mexico.html

Where the matter is being thoroughly discussed. Probably best to confine all discussions regarding the new INM regs to the initial discussion?


----------



## conklinwh

sunnyvmx said:


> How many of you know that there is a limit of two INAPAM discounted bus seats per bus. And if you do know the limit, do you still take the discounted seat from a poor Mexican that truly needs the discount for which it was originally intended. The next time you pull out that card, think of who you may be hurting.


Is this true? Where is it written? We are getting INAPAM but goal is tax & utility bills.


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## kazslo

Longford said:


> So, you're an expert at INM affairs, even the new rules. You understand them front and back. And you're fluent in Spanish. Fine. Good for you. Don't confuse your expertise, however, with that which may be helpful to newbies or others not so confident or fluent. And don't forget that the INM staff is new to the regulations themselves. I believe it would be foolish, and cheapskate-ish to try to navigate a complicated matter such as this one if someone is unfamiliar with new Mexican laws and regulations, dealing wiht Mexican government agencies or lacks Spanish-language fluency.


No, No, and No. Its not a matter of saying "I'm an expert". When I don't know something, I look at the law so I have a general idea of what to expect. Then I go to the INM office, explain my situation, and ask them how I should proceed. They tell me, and thats exactly what I do. Easy. And it cost me nothing. Unlike going to an attorney and paying so he/she can look at the law, contact the INM office, confirm/ask, and report back. Same information, less cost.

For most people, thats all there is to it. Now, for special cases, or people who can't speak any Spanish, then yes, an attorney or facilitator would be necessary. But just being 'new' to this won't make it any less easy if you fit into a classic category. What exactly will an attorney do for that person that they can't do on their own?

I hope my postings aren't being perceived as me thinking I'm some sort of expert. I'm only trying to inject facts (quotes from the laws) into a discussion charged by guesses and personal interpretations. I've presented any of my own ideas as just that, my own, and provide the un-translated quotes so people can make their own judgement.


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## Longford

[Comments deleted by author]


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## RVGRINGO

What has that to do with INM, Sunnyvmx? This is about INM, not INAPAM.
Back on topic:
I still think, rather strongly, that 99% of this discussion of the new INM procedures is premature. We should await postings of actual experiences over the next few weeks. They'll quickly provide the answers we seek.
My assumption is that both the no inmigrante and inmigrante documents, being merged into the new 'residente temporal', will be counted as time toward qualification for 'residente permanente'. I can't guarantee that will be the case, but it is logical, fair & just, provides the 'grandfathering' for those who have qualified for years, or decades, and prevents unhappy situations. I recommend patience.

New folks, including those who may have let an INM document lapse, will have to start over under the new law and the rules/requirements as presently published. The point system, still unpublished, may offer some other options. Again, patience is recommended.


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## kazslo

Longford said:


> You speak as if you're living in the past, unaware of the new regulations and the uncertainty many existing and wannabe expats may face.


I'm not being ignorant of the new rules and the challenges it _may_ create for some people. But the majority of this panic is being caused by people reading information on the net that is being presented by others who aren't associated with INM, who have translated and presented their own interpretations, but have failed to state that such information is not fact but mearly opinion.

If someone is uncertain, and their visa is expiring soon, they should head over to an INM office or their facilitator's office and ask. Otherwise if you still have time left on your visa, just wait and see how it works out over the next few months(and also see what the points system rules are).


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## FHBOY

*Merge-Yes; Title-Could Be Better*



Longford said:


> This is an almost identical discussion to this one:
> 
> http://www.expatforum.com/expats/me...mexico/131787-retirees-forced-out-mexico.html
> 
> Where the matter is being thoroughly discussed. Probably best to confine all discussions regarding the new INM regs to the initial discussion?


While I agree that the threads should be merged, can we come up with a better title for it? The reason is that newbies to the Forum, those not yet in Mexico, may tend ignore the "Forced Out" issue as controversy for only those already there and miss the factual info that is important for them (like me and other newbies).

I leave it to the All Knowing Mods to come up with a better title.


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## diablita

Longford said:


> Yes, I think I did. Thanks for mentioning that.
> 
> My thoughts are that if the government changes the rules and decides not to provide for grandfathering a certain class of persons ... then either those persons come into compliance, petition for an exception (if possible) or leave. If there are a large number of such persons in the category then I suspect the government will make an accommodation of some sort. I further think that the the new rules are written in a way that allows the vast majority of retiree expats to qualify. There are expats in Mexico who are poor, unable to support themselves sufficiently/financially in the USA and who came to Mexico obviously because of a lower cost of living but to take advantage of government programs intended for use by poor Mexicans. I do know that many Mexicans resent this freeloading by expats. All of this is why I believe, this first year of interaction with INM under the just-announced regulations ... the wise person will seek the advice of an experienced immigration attorney in Mexico.


Just what "government programs intended for use by the poor" are you speaking of. I've been here for quite a few years and don't know of any programs that I could be taking advantage of. I've always paid my own way, help my neighbors, help keep the neighborhood clean and have been living on much less than the new income requirements. IMHO you need to drop the elitist attitude.


----------



## Longford

FHBOY said:


> While I agree that the threads should be merged, can we come up with a better title for it? The reason is that newbies to the Forum, those not yet in Mexico, may tend ignore the "Forced Out" issue as controversy for only those already there and miss the factual info that is important for them (like me and other newbies).
> 
> I leave it to the All Knowing Mods to come up with a better title.


Good suggestion regarding change in thread title, for the one initiated by "sparks." The mods ought to be able to handle that. :clap2:


----------



## conklinwh

TundraGreen said:


> In all this discussion of what we might be facing in trying to stay in Mexico, I can't help but think about all the Mexicans living in the US and the hostile environment they face, generally with far fewer resources than many of the US/Canadians dealing with Mexican immigration. I have sympathy for people on both sides of the border trying to stay where they have made a life.


Sorry for slight diversion but since TG raised, I heard an interesting interview on immigration with Lindsey Graham that addressed many issues pretty straightforward.

-The border needs be secured or this will continue to be an issue
-There needs be a significantly expanded visiting worker program that gets decoupled from the present corrupt system.
-There needs be a form of the Dream act that includes some form of two years of public service, civilian or military, and not just college
-People here illegally that have committed a crime in addition to status should be deported
-People here legally that have not committed any other crime should be issued what I call a sort of permanent visitor card with tax ID that allows person, to stay, work and pay taxes
-To become a US citizen you must go through the application process like someone not living here with no priority but also no penalty unless another crime.
-Much tighter controls on businesses to hire only documented workers since everyone not committing a crime has opportunity to be documented.

Every system can be tweaked but this about the most comprehensive that I've heard and 1st to take on the total 11-12 million people here without valid documentation. Sorry if too much of a diversion.

Going back to the base discussion. I think that we all see the need for changes to the present Mexican system and there was a pretty good/extensive note earlier but for the life of me, I can't see the difference between say $1200 & $1900USD a month. I would think that most of the people that I talk to in our small town would be very happy with $1200/month.


----------



## joaquinx

conklinwh said:


> Going back to the base discussion. I think that we all see the need for changes to the present Mexican system and there was a pretty good/extensive note earlier but for the life of me, I can't see the difference between say $1200 & $1900USD a month. I would think that most of the people that I talk to in our small town would be very happy with $1200/month.


Let me attempt to clear this up. The difference is 700USD a month. Now those who make under 1900 USD will have to get a big boost from either SS or their pension fund. Are you talking to Mexicans or Gringos in your small town that would be very happy with 1200USD a month?


----------



## Judithjas

I see a Wave (bye, bye) of Evictions here in Mexico.


----------



## conklinwh

joaquinx said:


> Let me attempt to clear this up. The difference is 700USD a month. Now those who make under 1900 USD will have to get a big boost from either SS or their pension fund. Are you talking to Mexicans or Gringos in your small town that would be very happy with 1200USD a month?


This area, and I expect SMA, have a lot of single expats, mostly women, that for a lot of reasons will fall into the $1200-1900USD range. It is very easy to live comfortably here on $1200USD. I didn't include my Mexican friends/aquaintenances as they aren't part of the discussion but I know a lot live on much less than $1200US/month.


----------



## Isla Verde

Longford said:


> These people knew what the law was, and they intentionally violated it and should not be rewarded for their dirty deeds. If someone truly respects Mexico and Mexicans they will respect the form of government and laws ... or they should stay home. Yes, "cold" but realistic. :clap2:


This is the post that I was referring to when I said your response was "cold":



> Originally Posted by Isla Verde View Post
> What about expats who've lived here legally under the old rules but don't have an income high enough to stay here anymore. Should they be ejected too?
> 
> Yes.


People who've lived in Mexico legally have not violated anything, have they?


----------



## Longford

Isla Verde said:


> People who've lived in Mexico legally have not violated anything, have they?


Obviously ... no.

The old rules don't apply any more, however. Not once people are required to renew/reapply. While I hope everyone who's in Mexico can qualify to remain, if they don't ... and if there are no loopholes which will allow them to remain legally under these new regulations ... then I think they should leave.


----------



## Longford

conklinwh said:


> Going back to the base discussion. I think that we all see the need for changes to the present Mexican system and there was a pretty good/extensive note earlier but for the life of me, I can't see the difference between say $1200 & $1900USD a month. I would think that most of the people that I talk to in our small town would be very happy with $1200/month.


Isn't it a requirement, or it's been a requirement, that each visa applicant is required to meet the income threshold? So, if a husband and a wife are moving to Mexico together they'd need to show at least US$1,900 per month in income ... each? That's for non-homeowners. If so, then the increase in income being required is, for a couple, US$1,400. And if my assumption are accurate .... if investment accounts for a married couple are jointly held, both husband/wife could supply the same financial information for investment accounts (401K or IRA) that exceeds the $95,000 level which is one of the criteria. Can't say I understand all of what's happening with the new rules and I'm glad I'm not about to move to Mexico or in Mexico trying to figure this out.


----------



## conklinwh

Longford said:


> Isn't it a requirement, or it's been a requirement, that each visa applicant is required to meet the income threshold? So, if a husband and a wife are moving to Mexico together they'd need to show at least US$1,900 per month in income ... each? That's for non-homeowners. If so, then the increase in income being required is, for a couple, US$1,400. And if my assumption are accurate .... if investment accounts for a married couple are jointly held, both husband/wife could supply the same financial information for investment accounts (401K or IRA) that exceeds the $95,000 level which is one of the criteria. Can't say I understand all of what's happening with the new rules and I'm glad I'm not about to move to Mexico or in Mexico trying to figure this out.


Please note my comment that most expats that I know that will be effected by the change are single women.


----------



## Isla Verde

evafla said:


> Inmigrante: It appears (not fully verified) that an Inmigrante will have that time applied to the new Residente Temporal. If you have 4 years as an Inmigrante, you can go directly to Residente Terminante.
> *
> No Inmigrante folks are not so lucky. Their time does not carry forward. In fact, they cannot move directly to a Residente Temporal. They will be issued an ordinary Visitante good for 180 days. At that point they will have 2 options:
> 
> 1) Continue to live with a Visitante by returning to the border every 180 days to get a new Visitante and a new permit for the car.
> 
> 2) Return to the home country and apply for a Residente Temporal at a Mexican consulate.*
> 
> However , what above is from Rolly site .


I have the greatest respect for Rolly and the information he makes available to us on his site. However, in this case, he seems to be mistaken. This is what I found on the site of a Mexican lawyer (my underlining):

" ... first, let me calm the fears of all of the expats who had FM3’s before now and were told (by me, sorry) that their FM3’s would not transition nicely into Temporary Resident documents: They will, the regulations made a distinction that holders of No-Inmigrante Visitantes documents (FM3) will, upon expiration of their FM3, receive a Temporary Resident Status.

Temporary Resident

The Temporary Resident document will be issued for periods from 1-4 years, based on the decision of the immigration authority. Temporary Residency does not confer automatic permission to work in Mexico, although it may be granted upon request of the foreigner and pending a job offer. People who currently hold FM3′s and FM2′s and who do not fall into any of the categories allowed for Permanent Residency will be eligible at the time of renewal for Temporary Residency.

According to the regulations, and congruent with the law, people in ANY OF the following situations will be eligible for Temporary Residency in Mexico:

People with a marital or common-law link to a Mexican citizen or a person who holds a Temporary or Permanent Residency status
People with job offers
People registered in the federal tax registry who are trying to work independently in Mexico
People who have been invited by a government or private institution to participate in a non-lucrative activity
People who can prove their economic independence
People who own real estate in Mexico above a certain value*
People who have invested a certain amount* in stock in a Mexican company, production machinery or other assets in Mexico or economic activities(ambiguous)" 

New Mexican Immigration Law comes into effect in November » My Mexican Lawyer


----------



## makaloco

Some of the stories being posted now are astounding in their contradictions. One couple applying for residencia permanente (this morning, 12 November) was told by INM to submit a copy of their fideicomiso, because their income requirement will be reduced for being homeowners (no mention of value of home). Another couple applying for residencia permanente was told over the weekend by their lawyer that holders of residencia permanente can't own a home via fideicomiso, so they may have to form a corporation and "sell" their home to it.

I won't post links, because they fall under what ExpatForum considers competing sites. The info won't apply to the rest of us, anyhow. But my point is that we should avoid drawing premature conclusions from unofficial summaries and even anecdotal reports.


----------



## sparks

Not sure how that quote above came from Rolly's site ... but this is what it says now



> A Residente Temporal cannot be renewed after the fourth year runs out. At that time you must apply for Residente Permanente. or citizenship.


----------



## conorkilleen

Longford said:


> Can't say I understand all of what's happening with the new rules and I'm glad I'm not about to move to Mexico or in Mexico trying to figure this out.


Then stop posting. Stirring the pot will not get you anywhere.


----------



## Longford

conorkilleen said:


> Then stop posting. Stirring the pot will not get you anywhere.


Sit down. Be quiet. And let the adults finish their conversation. :focus:


----------



## TundraGreen

Note from Moderator: As suggested, I merged the former "Forced Out" thread with this one. I agree the title on the other thread was not very accurate and the two threads were discussing the same topic.

I also pulled out all the bus-seat-discount posts and put them in their own thread.


----------



## conorkilleen

Longford said:


> Sit down. Be quiet. And let the adults finish their conversation. :focus:


What makes you think I am not an adult? Maybe my posts need more emoticons?


----------



## mickisue1

Please, let's discuss the topic, not each other.

The goal is to share information. 

Something posted on another (reliable) site may be helpful. Personal comments, and editorializing about current residents in MX, are not helpful.


----------



## Isla Verde

TundraGreen said:


> Note from Moderator: As suggested, I merged the former "Forced Out" thread with this one. I agree the title on the other thread was not very accurate and the two threads were discussing the same topic.
> 
> I also pulled out all the bus-seat-discount posts and put them in their own thread.


Thanks, TG.


----------



## TundraGreen

:fencing: 
ConnorKilleen and Longford: You are skating on thin ice.


----------



## mickisue1

TundraGreen said:


> :fencing:
> ConnorKilleen and Longford: You are skating on thin ice.


TG: You are rocking it today on all fronts!


----------



## edgeee

Well, i'm glad we got that settled.
Now, since Mexico is no longer a possibility, where should i go?
Never mind, i already have that answer on file.


----------



## TundraGreen

mickisue1 said:


> TG: You are rocking it today on all fronts!


Thanks. People are keeping me busy. :smile:


----------



## Isla Verde

TundraGreen said:


> Thanks. People are keeping me busy. :smile:


We do it, so you won't get bored .


----------



## conorkilleen

TundraGreen said:


> :fencing:
> ConnorKilleen and Longford: You are skating on thin ice.


I digress...although I must point out that there is only one "n" in Conor.


----------



## edgeee

conorkilleen said:


> I digress...although I must point out that there is only one "n" in Conor.


CK, you're lucky he even tries to get it right.
_This is where i digress into personal attacks, just to show i can._

But seriously, what's wrong with wanting to get along?
And what does that have to do with "Immigration Law Changes"?


----------



## evafla

Sorry to everybody , but I am so lost, so stressed up, so tired .
I found it on another forum, chapala.com I guess .

What are your thoughts , please , because my brain , if ever did at all, now stopped working . 




*Posted Today, 04:19 PM
Just posted a while ago on the Vallarta board about someone's experience today down here:

We went to INM this morning in Puerto Vallarta to renew our FM3’s and this is what we were told:

Because we have had our FM3’s for at least 4 years we have just two options:
 Apply for Permanent Resident Status, or*
 _*Leave the country and reapply for Temporary Resident Status before the expiration date on our FM3’s*_
*
The requirements for Permanent Resident Status are:
 If we are retired, proof of monthly income of $32,000 mp per person (6 months of documentation required)
 If we are still employed, proof of total investments of $1,500,000 mp per person (12 months of documentation required)
 If we had had a FM3 for fewer than 4 years, we could reapply at the office in PV for Temporary Resident status for a period not to exceed the 4 year limit.

The payment requirements have changed:
 A $1,000 mp bank payment is required on the same day as the forms are submitted to the INM.
 An additional payment is required when the application is approved. (I forgot the precise amount - $3,150 mp I think. This is a one time payment, or as the INM women said, “This is forever.”)
 The process takes about 30 days. If you need to leave the country before you have your documents, you may apply for a letter from INM (a 3-5 day notice is necessary) for $325 mp.

The INM office in Puerto Vallarta had no information whatsoever on the status of foreign plated cars. We were told to contact the Customs office. *

I have number 3 on the back of my no inmigrante , in July 2013, when it expires ,
will be exactly 4 years since I have the visa ( first was FM3) , does it mean I will have to leave the country , and reapply like the poster said, or I will have to have proof of $2400
a month and I will need to apply for permanent status ?
Does someone know what is the most effective anti migraine pharmaceutical available,
I wish I would joking.. ? 
What does it mean to leave the country, to where ? And what for ..

e


----------



## TundraGreen

conorkilleen said:


> I digress...although I must point out that there is only one "n" in Conor.


My apologies.


----------



## grotton

I dropped by the INM office in Tuxtla Chiapas today to ask a couple questions. First about applying for an permanent resident visa. I've always arrived in Mexico with a simple FMM issued upon arrival because for me that was sufficient since I travel quite a bit. I was told it was necessary to return to my home country and apply for a longer term visa at a Mexican consulate there. So to answer you question, what does leaving the country mean? I think it means returning to the country of your citizenship and there applying for whichever visa is appropriate at a Mexican consulate.


----------



## evafla

Grotton , thank you much .

Unfortunately, it was my guess as well .

It was so much of discussion about it , but seems like Rolly knew what he was writing .

If you have no inmigrante visa , and you want to renew it the way so it stays temporary,
with financial support for this only , you have to go back to States or Canada and deal with Mexican Consulate over there .
If your no inmigrante is mature enough , 4 years or more , and you have $2400 income every month , not working, ( income needs to be in US dollars and from US ), you welcome to become permanent resident .
This is not the law , this is the revenge . 

e


----------



## Isla Verde

evafla said:


> . . . No Inmigrante folks are not so lucky. Their time does not carry forward. In fact, they cannot move directly to a Residente Temporal. They will be issued an ordinary Visitante good for 180 days. At that point they will have 2 options:
> 
> 1) Continue to live with a Visitante by returning to the border every 180 days to get a new Visitante and a new permit for the car.
> 
> 2) Return to the home country and apply for a Residente Temporal at a Mexican consulate.[/B]
> 
> . . . what above is from Rolly site .


I just looked again at Rolly's site and found that all of the above information has been deleted except for the first two sentences:

No Inmigrante folks are not so lucky. Their time does not carry forward. 

I wonder why ...


----------



## Longford

mickisue1 said:


> Please, let's discuss the topic, not each other.
> 
> The goal is to share information.
> 
> Something posted on another (reliable) site may be helpful. Personal comments, and editorializing about current residents in MX, are not helpful.


The "experts" will have you think they have the answers. But when you read their answers, they're as confused as anyone else. So no questions/comments are off-topic ... when discussing the topic ... unless someone has an interest in promoting incorrect information. Clearly, from what we've learned already this week ... INM staff is confused in the various offices. Just read the various Mexico-specific websites and you will see this. Regarding expats in Mexico, they're the ones principally asking questions about their status. Talking also how the regs will affect the reverse mojados seems to me to be equally relevant. No one opinion carries weight more than the other ... at this point in time. The matters will shake-out and become clearer in the several months ahead. The challenge, the immediate challenge and concern, is for those people on the verge of moving to Mexico and expats in Mexico whose status is coming up for renewal. More information is better than less. More questions, at this point, are better than less. That is, of course, if someone is interested in ferreting-out the answers. At the end of the day ... what we say here is irrelevant to what the INM staff around the country decides. And anyone who thinks there will be consistency in the application of the regs hasn't been to Mexico before. And instead of trolling the discussion with insults, someone uninterested can simply pass the discussion by. Thanks.


----------



## kazslo

Longford said:


> Talking also how the regs will affect the reverse mojados seems to me to be equally relevant.


Its really not, because I've yet to hear from someone on any board that is in Mexico illegally and wants help to keep their status that way.

You are the the only one who has been calling the rest of us, who are here legally and are now concerned about we might not be able to meet the new rules, "illegals" and "reverse mojados". The concern isn't that "now we have to follow rules" whereas before we could just waltz over the border and live here without documentation, but that the rules changed and might affect our ability to be here. If you want to try to spin off the thread into politically charged discussion like you do with any violence discussion take it to the Chatarreria section and allow the rest of us who *are* affected by these regulations try to organize our plans and help one another. Nobody has any clear answers and thats why we are trying to share what we know and discuss what we think.


----------



## grotton

evafla said:


> Grotton , thank you much .
> 
> Unfortunately, it was my guess as well .
> 
> It was so much of discussion about it , but seems like Rolly knew what he was writing .
> 
> If you have no inmigrante visa , and you want to renew it the way so it stays temporary,
> with financial support for this only , you have to go back to States or Canada and deal with Mexican Consulate over there .
> If your no inmigrante is mature enough , 4 years or more , and you have $2400 income every month , not working, ( income needs to be in US dollars and from US ), you welcome to become permanent resident .
> This is not the law , this is the revenge .
> 
> e


I'm not sure about needing to have a no inmigrante visa for more then 4 years to become a permanent resident. From what I read, I thought it was only necessary to meet the $2400/month income requirement or show savings in excess of $125,000.00. Did I miss something? Wouldn't be the first time. Also, I don't think the income has to be in US dollars. It can be in any currency as long as it meets the above values converted to pesos.


----------



## makaloco

Rolly is normally reliable, so if he wrote something and deleted it, it's probably because he somehow determined it was questionable. He and others writing about this must be getting swamped with opinions and bombarded with questions. I really think it's too soon to expect anyone to have the "final word". Even my INM office staff advised waiting a week or two after the implementation before coming to ask about the new requirements.


----------



## Longford

Also taking effect this year, the following changes impacting expats: End of the tax on marriage and divorce. End of the MX$5000 fee for expats purchasing land in areas outside of the restricted zones.


----------



## evafla

Again very interesting .

We say on this forum about Americans and Canadians only , and we Americans/Canadians should present 6 banks statements ,

of the banks with hard cash deposit every month, we have access to .

My assumption was , those banks were in US or Canada , sorry I miss CD in my post .
The currency really does not matter , and you are right about that ,my point, however, was about having this kind of money not working .

You are also right , about changing the status from no inmigrante to inmigrante ,
old names, possible to do any time you wish so (always was before) , if you proof requested income .

Again it was not the point of my post . What was it, and why I called the law the revenge ?
Because , if you are 4 years or longer over here (perfectly legally, you have visa) , and you do not have money
for permanent status , you can not stay here and extend no inmigrante (temporada), you need to go back ,
apply for temporary visa again ( not an extention ), start the clock again . 

Four years from now , requirements are going to be for sure more , and again you will have to go back...

In my eyes this is the method to get rid of those of us , who are over here
too long , on too low income .

Smart economical move , yes, scary for me, and I think for a few others,
probably..

and one more ; permanent visa, no more car with American plates , this custom law did not change , bye, bye travel , unless your move to Mexico
was just a whim of very well of person .

e


----------



## mickisue1

Eva, I don't know if this is a comfort to you or not, but most countries require that people seeking long (or short) term visas apply in their own countries. What differs here is that, once the visa has been granted, most countries allow renewal from within the country.

The new rules are so confusing, not only to expats but the immigration offices themselves, that I can't help but believe that they'll be changed, if only in being better spelled out, and soon.


----------



## DeportedAllan

it's a sad day when you have to be rich just to get by in mexico. the worlds richest man is a mexican named carlos slim


----------



## Longford

mickisue1 said:


> The new rules are so confusing, not only to expats but the immigration offices themselves, that I can't help but believe that they'll be changed, if only in being better spelled out, and soon.


The best intentions of government administrators often miss their mark (a worldwide government experience), and, after an introductory period ... changes are made. Regs are tweaked. This is a substantial and important overhaul of regulations and it's almost impossible for the writers of the regulations to have anticipated all situations. Obviously, the greatest impact is upon, but not limited to, the more than one million people who are living in Mexico from abroad. 

We should remember, also, that there are likely to be substantial changes in the Mexican federal government burocracy ... including in the administration of INM ... after December 1, when Mexico's new President, Enrique Peña Nieto, is sworn in and takes control of the government. His appointees may have different priorities and different interpretations.

The only constant is change. And uncertainty.


----------



## joaquinx

Any changes regarding students. That is, are there any income requirements?


----------



## mickisue1

Joaquin, upthread I posted them. The requirements are basically that they be able to meet the costs of tuition and living expenses. Also, that the income can be a combination of any of stipend, scholarship, individual and/or parental or guardian income.


----------



## Longford

kazslo said:


> You are the the only one who has been calling the rest of us, who are here legally and are now concerned about we might not be able to meet the new rules, "illegals" and "reverse mojados".


Disagree with something I say. That's fine. If you don't understand something I say, ask for a clarification. But please don't say I've said something I haven't. 



kazslo said:


> Nobody has any clear answers and thats why we are trying to share what we know and discuss what we think.


If you believe what you've written, above, then please respect the opportunities, the privilege this website has given us, to present our own opinions. Thank you.


----------



## FHBOY

Longford said:


> Disagree with something I say. That's fine. If you don't understand something I say, ask for a clarification. But please don't say I've said something I haven't.
> 
> If you believe what you've written, above, then please respect the opportunities, the privilege this website has given us, to present our own opinions. Thank you.


That is OK, just please label opinions as such so that those seeking first hand factual info will be alerted. 

On an issue such as this, it is more important that we make the distinction - it affects so many of us.

For Newbies like me:
I've put in a call to the DC Consulate and am waiting a return call. If that doesn't happen, I'll just go down there to collect the info, and then go back after I collect all the stuff they want. Heck, I'm retired, what better way to spend the time than going to DC? Right attitude, right?


----------



## Longford

FHBOY said:


> That is OK, just please label opinions as such so that those seeking first hand factual info will be alerted.


Unless someone is citing a authoritative source for what they're saying, whatever is said is a persons opinion and I think that's generally understood on web forums. There are very different interests represented in a discussion, particularly one such as this. And it's usually not possible to determine why someone is saying what they're saying ... or why they attack someone who disagrees with what their perception of how they'd like the world to look. We pick and choose the information and sources we believe best suits our needs/wants. If any one of us knew the answers to all of the questions ... we'd be charging for the information by the hour!



FHBOY said:


> I've put in a call to the DC Consulate and am waiting a return call. If that doesn't happen, I'll just go down there to collect the info, and then go back after I collect all the stuff they want. Heck, I'm retired, what better way to spend the time than going to DC? Right attitude, right?


Folks who are on the cusp about to move to Mexico ... this is obviously an uncertain time. :ranger:


----------



## mickisue1

This may seem very elementary IR: the new income requirements. 

But it appears that the approx $1900 for the long term and the $2400 for the permanent are per household, not per person. Is that accurate?

If per person, that IS high: $4800 per month is above the national average for a family of four in the US.


----------



## Isla Verde

mickisue1 said:


> This may seem very elementary IR: the new income requirements.
> 
> But it appears that the approx $1900 for the long term and the $2400 for the permanent are per household, not per person. Is that accurate?
> 
> If per person, that IS high: $4800 per month is above the national average for a family of four in the US.


Those amounts are per person though I'm not sure if they are doubled for a couple that comprise one household.


----------



## Hound Dog

_


mickisue1 said:



Are the rules really written in US dollars, or have they been translated for this forum?

Click to expand...

_ The rules are written utilizing mathematical calculations using Mexican Pesos and conversion to other currencies is subject to change from day to day. As for rules regarding minimal income, net worth and minimal real property values, it seems to me these criteria are still subject to modification at this time but we shall see. If the rules remain as proposed at this time, they´ll present probelms for some who have been here for a while qualifying uner the old rules but who knows at this point. 

One point however; if you are a permanent resident holding the old "inmigrado" status, there are no rules regarding income or asset vales going into the future so there will be no need to worrry about that if that is your immigration status.


----------



## DNP

I have no reason to question or doubt you, but a citation would helpful, particularly because it seems that so many situations have not yet been addressed.



Hound Dog said:


> One point however; if you are a permanent resident holding the old "inmigrado" status, there are no rules regarding income or asset values going into the future so there will be no need to worry about that if that is your immigration status.


Northern Virginia, USA, and SMA, MEXICO


----------



## mickisue1

Hound Dog said:


> The rules are written utilizing mathematical calculations using Mexican Pesos and conversion to other currencies is subject to change from day to day. As for rules regarding minimal income, net worth and minimal real property values, it seems to me these criteria are still subject to modification at this time but we shall see. If the rules remain as proposed at this time, they´ll present probelms for some who have been here for a while qualifying uner the old rules but who knows at this point.
> 
> One point however; if you are a permanent resident holding the old "inmigrado" status, there are no rules regarding income or asset vales going into the future so there will be no need to worrry about that if that is your immigration status.


The reason that I asked the question is that the exchange rate, as of the day that I asked it, converted to, while not a LOT smaller, nevertheless, a smaller amount in USD. It might be a good idea for those who are posting dollar amounts, in USD or CDN, to note that they are a)the currency of the specific country and b)converted on a particular day.

That may seem elementary. But for some who are unused to dealing with international currency, they may be unaware of the volatility of the exchange rate, and may assume that the amounts noted are set in stone.


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## eagles100

Isla Verde said:


> Those amounts are per person though I'm not sure if they are doubled for a couple that comprise one household.


Maybe if we tell Immigration that our spouse doesn't eat much and ask if we come in with lower than double the per person rate LOL :confused2:


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## TundraGreen

mickisue1 said:


> The reason that I asked the question is that the exchange rate, as of the day that I asked it, converted to, while not a LOT smaller, nevertheless, a smaller amount in USD. It might be a good idea for those who are posting dollar amounts, in USD or CDN, to note that they are a)the currency of the specific country and b)converted on a particular day.
> 
> That may seem elementary. But for some who are unused to dealing with international currency, they may be unaware of the volatility of the exchange rate, and may assume that the amounts noted are set in stone.


As you probably know, but others may not, the actual amounts are quoted in units of the number of days of minimum wage in Mexico City. Currently that minimum wage is $62.33 pesos/day. 

For example Article 44 (Permanent or temporary residence) of Documento sin título, lists the requirements as a monthly income equivalent to 500 days for each of the past 6 months, or assets equivalent to 25,000 days average over the past 12 months. At current exchange rates these equal $2354.31 usd and $117,715.74 usd. 

Using $13.24 mxn = $1.00 usd, 1 dia = $63.22 mxn.


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## richb123

Hi! I have a couple of questions - 

1) Does the Mexican government differentiate between IRA, 401K and non-retirement accounts? For example, if someone has $35,000 in an investment account and $65,000 in an IRA, does that person meet the requirement for Perm Residency? 

2) What constitutes income? If someone has received monthly dividend income that exceeds the required income (and can show that income for over a year), does that count also?

TIA!


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## FHBOY

*Opinion/Criminal Record*



richb123 said:


> Hi! I have a couple of questions -
> 
> 1) Does the Mexican government differentiate between IRA, 401K and non-retirement accounts? For example, if someone has $35,000 in an investment account and $65,000 in an IRA, does that person meet the requirement for Perm Residency?
> 
> _OPINION: I have not seen anything to the contrary and I doubt whether the Mexican government will differentiate. The idea is that you have adequate resources to allow you not to become dependent on the state. I hope to clarify this when I visit the consulate, or someone like MyMexicanLawyer.com, Rolly over at his website, or Intercasa at chapala.com are very up on the new laws._
> 
> 2) What constitutes income? If someone has received monthly dividend income that exceeds the required income (and can show that income for over a year), does that count also?
> 
> _OPINION: Again, as above, I think that all they are worried about is anyone becoming a financial burden on the state, so IMO any verifiable income should qualify, regardless of legal source._
> 
> TIA!


Now, another question: I read somewhere, or heard on a recorded announcement, that immigrants may be/are required to show they have a clean criminal record. Anybody out there heard of this requirement?


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## sparks

They want bank statements for income. Over all assets is a different thing


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## sparks

FHBOY said:


> Now, another question: I read somewhere, or heard on a recorded announcement, that immigrants may be/are required to show they have a clean criminal record. Anybody out there heard of this requirement?


It used to be required in some consulates in the US


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## Longford

FHBOY said:


> Now, another question: I read somewhere, or heard on a recorded announcement, that immigrants may be/are required to show they have a clean criminal record. Anybody out there heard of this requirement?


The requirement that an applicant present finger prints and a letter from a hometown police department confirming the lack of a criminal record have both, or in part, been a requirement at various Consular offices in the USA for some time ... if I'm recalling correctly. When I first moved to Mexico in 1993 and applied for my FM3 with the endorsement permitting me to work in Mexico, the police department letter and a letter from a physician stating I was free from communicable diseases was a requirement. That was for the FM3/Work visa, however ... not for a mere residency visa. I believe that requirement was listed on many of the Consular office websites until recently. However, the "requirement" was not unifmormly applied. Not only did I have to provide the letter, I had to pay to have it translated into Spanish .... by a certified/acceptable (to INM) translator in the D.F. where I was living/working. In all of the talk about the new regulations, I've read/heard nothing about the police/health letter(s).


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## TundraGreen

Regarding the source of income…
It is my understanding, not based on personal experience, that it is just necessary to show a regular deposit to an account. The source is not important. It could even be a regular transfer from one account to another.

Regarding criminal background …
I once applied to be an official translator for the city of Guadalajara. I was required to get a statement from local authorities attesting to a clean criminal record in Mexico. It had nothing to do with Migración and that fact is just a digression here.


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## mickisue1

Re: clean records.

My oldest son has had to produce apostilled letters from the FBI and both states where he's lived, along with his health records, to live and work in Japan, S. Korea and China.

In the first two cases, he'd been hired by the national government, but both hirings were contingent on receipt of the records. For China, the Peace Corps did a thorough health check, up to and including requiring that a dermatologist look at his completely non-malignant moles (!). Then China added a list of diseases that they wanted him checked for.

It would be uncommon, not the other way around, for any country to fail to require that someone moving there demonstrate that they not be criminal. The only country that had the opposite was Australia, and they've changed their rules, too.


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## makaloco

richb123 said:


> 1) Does the Mexican government differentiate between IRA, 401K and non-retirement accounts? For example, if someone has $35,000 in an investment account and $65,000 in an IRA, does that person meet the requirement for Perm Residency?


The immigration legal documents don't specify to that level of detail, and foreigners from various countries will have different types of accounts, so it's hard to say how consulates or INM offices will apply the requirements. For example, my IRA consists of mutual fund stocks and bonds, so it could be considered an "investment" or "retirement" account, but definitely not a "pension" because there are no regular payouts. One of my friends is from Italy, and her accounts may be entirely different.


> 2) What constitutes income? If someone has received monthly dividend income that exceeds the required income (and can show that income for over a year), does that count also?


If the dividends are paid out to you as opposed to reinvested, I'd imagine they'd qualify as income. My dividends are automatically reinvested, so I'm assuming they won't count. But you know what they say about assuming … your best bet is to inquire at your consulate or INM office.


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## Isla Verde

FHBOY said:


> Now, another question: I read somewhere, or heard on a recorded announcement, that immigrants may be/are required to show they have a clean criminal record. Anybody out there heard of this requirement?


I've never heard of Mexico requiring this though it is common for other countries, especially in Asia.


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## joaquinx

Isla Verde said:


> I've never heard of Mexico requiring this though it is common for other countries, especially in Asia.


A few years ago, the consulate in Seattle was requiring this, but consulates often require more for no reason.


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## Isla Verde

joaquinx said:


> A few years ago, the consulate in Seattle was requiring this, but consulates often require more for no reason.


My information was based on what is required when you apply for a visa in Mexico.


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## DNP

"Income" is a vague term, used differently by tax authorities, in casual conversations, by immigration authorities and others.

For those entities issuing various types of visas for entering Mexico, I've always understood that to show you can support yourself (yourselves) the acceptable evidence that can be used has often included bank statements for the last several months.

In that case, "income" means deposits to those bank statements you choose to present as your evidence, not "income" as others might use that term.

In that context, whether those deposits are from investments, dividends, earned or unearned income, etc., or simply transfers from other accounts, like savings accounts, has been and remains irrelevant, IMHO. Deposits suffice.

I've seen nothing so far that changes that, but I'll keep my eyes and mind open.




makaloco said:


> The immigration legal documents don't specify to that level of detail, and foreigners from various countries will have different types of accounts, so it's hard to say how consulates or INM offices will apply the requirements. For example, my IRA consists of mutual fund stocks and bonds, so it could be considered an "investment" or "retirement" account, but definitely not a "pension" because there are no regular payouts. One of my friends is from Italy, and her accounts may be entirely different.
> 
> If the dividends are paid out to you as opposed to reinvested, I'd imagine they'd qualify as income. My dividends are automatically reinvested, so I'm assuming they won't count. But you know what they say about assuming &#133; your best bet is to inquire at your consulate or INM office.


Northern Virginia, USA, and SMA, MEXICO


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## Longford

TundraGreen said:


> Regarding the source of income…
> It is my understanding, not based on personal experience, that it is just necessary to show a regular deposit to an account. The source is not important. It could even be a regular transfer from one account to another.


I've seen commentary on a different expat-in-Mexico forum in which someone stated that INM was not allowing them transfers between accounts for the purposes of verifying income. No savings to checking and then back to savings then the same routine the next month, etc., to create a paper trail. I think I read this correctly. It was a very recent post. This week. Again, the volume of paperwork will be enormous systemwide and I expect we will be hearing conflicting information depending upon the jurisdiction.


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## joaquinx

Longford said:


> I've seen commentary on a different expat-in-Mexico forum in which someone stated that INM was not allowing them transfers between accounts for the purposes of verifying income. No savings to checking and then back to savings then the same routine the next month, etc., to create a paper trail.


There was a mention of this somewhere. I believe it involved the IMN office in SMA. The agent there wanted a letter from the bank (letterhead, signature, and business card) stating the source and possible continuity of the income. It was of general opinion that this office was the only office requesting this conformation letter. Whether this has spread to other offices can only be revealed by a visit to the local office.


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## TundraGreen

Longford said:


> I've seen commentary on a different expat-in-Mexico forum in which someone stated that INM was not allowing them transfers between accounts for the purposes of verifying income. No savings to checking and then back to savings then the same routine the next month, etc., to create a paper trail. I think I read this correctly. It was a very recent post. This week. Again, the volume of paperwork will be enormous systemwide and I expect we will be hearing conflicting information depending upon the jurisdiction.


just goes to show that I shouldn't post hearsay information. At least I had the sense to label it as hearsay.


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## makaloco

DNP said:


> In that case, "income" means deposits to those bank statements you choose to present as your evidence, not "income" as others might use that term.
> 
> In that context, whether those deposits are from investments, dividends, earned or unearned income, etc., or simply transfers from other accounts, like savings accounts, has been and remains irrelevant, IMHO. Deposits suffice.
> 
> I've seen nothing so far that changes that, but I'll keep my eyes and mind open.


Agreed as it applies to past practice, but in the new procedures, there are separate options for demonstrating solvency. One involves net monthly *income* or pension, and another *average monthly balances* in investments or bank accounts. How it will work in practice is anybody's guess, but here's the actual wording from the section on changing from Temporal to Permanente (Articulo 44):

_5. En el caso de pensionados o jubilados deberán presentar:
a) Original y copia de comprobante de inversiones o cuentas bancarias con saldo promedio mensual equivalente a veinticinco mil días de salario mínimo general vigente en el Distrito Federal durante los últimos doce meses, o
b) Original y copia de los documentos que demuestren que cuenta con ingresos o pensión mensual libre de gravámenes equivalente a quinientos días de salario mínimo general vigente en el Distrito Federal, durante los últimos seis meses, y _


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## pappabee

Well everyone, For the time being I'm able to sit long enough to read some posts and to reply to some.

IMHO everyone is getting uptight for no reason at all (as of yet). Those of you who have been in Mexico for a few years know that the only thing that is for certain is that things change. Not only do we not know exactly what's going to happen but the officials don't either. We also know that some of the enforcement is going to be up to the location manager. 

I say lets hold off our opinions and our assumptions and wait until we get some actual information from people who have been there and done that. 

I have two questions that I'm going to wait to get answered.

1-since my wife and I have "no inmigrnte" visas. What will be our options when we go to renew?

2-what will be our income requirements, if any at renewal?


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## Longford

TundraGreen said:


> just goes to show that I shouldn't post hearsay information. At least I had the sense to label it as hearsay.


At this point ... it's almost all hearsay. :confused2:


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## sparks

pappabee said:


> 1-since my wife and I have "no inmigrnte" visas. What will be our options when we go to renew?
> 
> 2-what will be our income requirements, if any at renewal?


You renew until your current visa runs out of renewals and then have to move to resident permanent .... or leave the country and start again. The number of years of renewals you have left determines how many years you can buy. 1-2-3-4 year options ... cheaper by the bunch.

Single needs to show about $1900 and married couple about $2400. That's based on 400 time minimum wage and 500 times minimum wage. Residente Permanente is 500 times the wage and add 100 for a couple. 

I've read so much on this that I can't remember where I saw the couple part ... so take it with a grain of salt


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## grotton

Quick question. beyond a financial/income requirement, or savings requirement, is there an age requirement (ie set retirement age) to qualify for a permanent resident status?


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## Isla Verde

grotton said:


> Quick question. beyond a financial/income requirement, or savings requirement, is there an age requirement (ie set retirement age) to qualify for a permanent resident status?


I've never heard of one.


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## evafla

*Has someone has better ability to think ?*

Can someone think for me please ?

2009 old booklet Fm3 
2010 new card no inmigrante
2011 second card , same thing
2012 third card like above ( and it has 3 on the back, extension)

when I am going to step to the office next year , I will have it for 4 years but few days,
does it mean I will need to switch to permanent status , right or wrong?

But , if can pay "wholesale" for up to 4 cards ahead, it means this last one 
(my next year one) is included , because it has to be renewal , not the first time ,
first time in Mexico is absolute .
Does it mean , in July 2013 , I will be able to get one more time no immigrante ,
unless my income is going to qualify me , and I will wish to switch to inmigrante..
Right or wrong ? catch...

And now , the most important to me , if I would decide to switch to permanent status , showing proper income , will I have to do it again, renew every year ,
or also I can pay for 4 years ahead and do not have to go to this office for 5 years ? 

If this is correct ...
How about restriction applied to leaving Mexico for travel ? ( read, looking for another country to live)


thank you e

oops , sorry for the bug in the title , I need right now someone to think for me..


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## sparks

evafla said:


> Can someone think for me please ?
> 
> 2009 old booklet Fm3
> 2010 new card no inmigrante
> 2011 second card , same thing
> 2012 third card like above ( and it has 3 on the back, extension)


Sounds like you have one more renewal to go. Once on permanent visa that's the end of renewals


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## AlanMexicali

*My story so far.*

I just back from the INM here with some forms. There was one other person in their office at 9:30 today, always it was full before. I have to fill out one form with my information. I have to bring in our original Acta de Matrimonia and a copy, my passport and a copy ,my valid FMM card and 2 photos and first pay $1000.00 pesos. They then print out an on line form and fill it out. I have to go to a bank and pay $4690.00 pesos and bring back the reciept. They will take about 3 weeks to process my Residente Temporal which I chose to get for 2 years. I could have chosen from 1 to 4 years. 

After the 2 years are up I can tramite to Residente Permanente, not now. I have to be on a Residente Temporal for 2 years minumum even though we have been married for over 2 years. I can leave the country as long as I want [no more travel restrictions]. I can work or own a business etc.. Alan


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## Isla Verde

AlanMexicali said:


> After the 2 years are up I can tramite to Residente Permanente, not now. I have to be on a Residente Temporal for 2 years minumum even though we have been married for over 2 years. I can leave the country as long as I want [no more travel restrictions]. I can work or own a business etc.. Alan


Can you work or own a business now, or is this a change from your current status?


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## AlanMexicali

Isla Verde said:


> Can you work or own a business now, or is this a change from your current status?


I use FMM tourist cards to travel back and forth from San Diego and Mexicali to SLP by plane to Guadalajara and then bus to SLP over the years. ETN is my preference if I don´t have to wait too long at the Central de Camiones. Last time I missed one by seconds and waited 5 1/2 hours at 12:30 AM, a very interesting place on a Saturday night, to say the least.


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## Isla Verde

AlanMexicali said:


> I use FMM tourist cards to travel back and forth from San Diego and Mexicali to SLP by plane to Guadalajara and then bus to SLP over the years. ETN is my preference if I don´t have to wait too long at the Central de Camiones. Last time I missed one by seconds and waited 5 1/2 hours at 12:30 AM, a very interesting place on a Saturday night, to say the least.


My question was concerning your right to work in Mexico when you get your new _residente temporal _status, not how you get from one home to another in Mexico.


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## mickisue1

AlanMexicali said:


> I use FMM tourist cards to travel back and forth from San Diego and Mexicali to SLP by plane to Guadalajara and then bus to SLP over the years. ETN is my preference if I don´t have to wait too long at the Central de Camiones. Last time I missed one by seconds and waited 5 1/2 hours at 12:30 AM, a very interesting place on a Saturday night, to say the least.


I had the same question as IV. This seems to answer an unasked question. ???


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## FHBOY

*Visa Experience Update 1.0*

I called the Consulate in Washington DC and spoke with the representative. This is what I know, first hand, so far:

They requested an email, directed to her, with our vital information, names, dates, when we are moving, are we shipping anything. She said with the change in the law and until the dust settles, they are handling visas on a case by case basis (her words), and are swamped.

She said that after she reviews my email, she will reply with an email that contains all of the requirements for our particular case (two retirees, 4 cats, 1 car, 1 moving lift, already have a house in Mexico).

She did say that with our travel dates we should not have a problem getting our visas in a timely manner - but it will require a trip to the Consulate in DC.

As soon as I receive the email, I will post the "official (?)" reply here on the Forum.

Stay tuned.


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## AlanMexicali

Isla Verde said:


> Can you work or own a business now, or is this a change from your current status?


I see where the confusion is because of the way I wrote the first post. Yes, with the Residente Temporal, when I get it, I will be able to work and own a business etc. and no travel restrictions. Alan


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## Isla Verde

AlanMexicali said:


> I see where the confusion is because of the way I wrote the first post. Yes, with the Residente Temporal, when I get it, I will be able to work and own a business etc. and no travel restrictions. Alan


Are there two kinds of _residente temporal_ visas, one _rentista_ and the other, _lucrativa_?


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## AlanMexicali

*Residente Temporal*



Isla Verde said:


> Are there two kinds of _residente temporal_ visas, one _rentista_ and the other, _lucrativa_?


That is a very good question. I have seen another ask this question elsewhere and there seems to be no answer to it. The Residente Permanente status does have a "Rentista" status but I do not see where the Residente Temporal status has one or what the financial qualifications for working on a current visa are going to be. This area seems not to be published yet or discussed yet. 

So far I understand if you meet the financial qualifications from money coming from abroad you will qualify to get a Residente Temporal. It might be possible that all Residente Temporal status people are able to work and show income from ongoing taxes from working in Mexico, I really am not sure. 

The copy of the requirements they gave me from the new rules on top states "Cambio de condicion residente permanente por vinculo familiar"

Number 2 requirement states: "Tajeta de residente temporal o de visitante, o FMM valida y vigente."

They circled what I need to bring in but THEN tell me I will be getting a Residente Temoral, not a Residente Permanente ... this is a conradiction of the heading of the rules I posted above and no where does it state I need to be on a Residente Temporal for a minumun of 2 years in these rules. 3 weeks ago when I went there they stated I would be able to get Residente Permanente in my situation. Alan


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## evafla

Hello;

Sorry , I know I am going to repeat the question , which was asked many times .
However , reading I am doing does not provide answer , and this is really burning question for me .

Yes, again ;

We , not married couple, never had FM2 or inmigrande card.
only FM3 , for one year, and 3 non inmigrante following . 
We have one more renew coming to close 4 years time .

_*Are we going to be able to change after this renewal, to permanent resident or not ?*_
Source , below , link provided , says NO, many posts on different forums say YES ,
does someone know the answer , which is from good lawyer, or from 
hand on experience with INM ?

New Immigration Law Published for Mexico – The Article | Surviving Yucatan 

thank you e


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## RVGRINGO

Evan our local INM office is in confused chaos, it seems. We drove by there this morning and it appeared to be closed. They closed last Friday, as well, and have been suffering 'angryt expats' all week.Patience is running thin and another friend listed ther home for sale today, saying "Enouth!". Local Mexicans seem to know little of this situation, which will affect them; expecially in places like Ajijic, where many businesses depend upon expats. They're having enough of a hard time anyway, because of fewer snowbirds, etc.


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## Isla Verde

RVGRINGO said:


> Evan our local INM office is in confused chaos, it seems. We drove by there this morning and it appeared to be closed. They closed last Friday, as well, and have been suffering 'angryt expats' all week.Patience is running thin and another friend listed ther home for sale today, saying "Enouth!". Local Mexicans seem to know little of this situation, which will affect them; expecially in places like Ajijic, where many businesses depend upon expats. They're having enough of a hard time anyway, because of fewer snowbirds, etc.


Such disheartening news. I would have thought that in your area, with its large contingent of resident expats, the INM office would get itself up to snuff as soon as possible. "Confused chaos" sounds a lot worse than that other kind of chaos !


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## cuylers5746

*New Immigration Law Uproar*

Hi RVGringo;

I'm sure you will have deduced this by now, but maybe other's not reading this will have not come to the same conclusion?

Calmete! Just relax, let the INM Office Staff get more educated to answer your questions in a week or two more. I don't know about your office, but here in Tepic they're the nicest people, hand picked great people from in the community that do what ever possible to bend over backwards to help the people in this community that are ExPats. For instance just two weeks ago they called a lot of us us (we didn't get the call) but friends of ours did and informed us. A party was sponsored, given by local INM Office at local University to help the Expats to get accuainted with each other and the foreign students attending the University.

*Does this sound like an organization looking to kick us out of the country?*

So, I surely expect these people will be trying every which way to get "most" of the Expats currently under existing Visa's squeeze through loop holes if need be in the Law. Other's they will probably be echoing the concerns most of us have all the way to the top offices in D.F.

Read my previous posts on this matter and how I think this whole new law came about and in force. It's probably going to have some major hicups before it's all settled out. Might even get up to "El Presidente's desk" before it's all over? Why? Here's the economics of the situation.
*
Overall the Mexican Economy is hurting severely in this 240 year Depressionary event.* Yes, there are many Chinese, European Manufactures beating down the door trying to put Factories here to take advantage of the Tax Free (as far as shipping to many country customers) , and lowest cost of Manufacture in the World (Mexico right now), under the new North American Union and take advantage of a free pass into NAFTA rules also, but this all takes time. The planning stage, the Civil Engineering State clearing the land, getting utilities to those future factory sites and then the actual construction of the buildings then all the Industrial Engineers/ Architects doing their thing to get the machinery and infracstruture in their factores in place. Can take a couple of years to get that all accomplished. It might not be in your big neiche of the world in D.F. as almost anything that happens big has to happen with all the bureacracy in place and Company HQ's in D.F. but elsewhere, I can attest Mexico is hurting.

1. Mexico get's the highest amount of revenue to distribute for all their social programs through Oil Revenues.
They are down considerably because their biggest Oil Patch, The Calderon field has been depleted and down 40% from the begining, and pump rates have diminshed considerably. Pemex's Deep Water Billion+ Barrel field will take probably at least 5 years to get on line and the infracstructure to get the oil to shore? Who knows with the USA becoming a next Oil Exporter again within 7 years they say - will drop the price of gas considerably, and maybe that cost of production in the Deep Water Field will be so prohibitive they won't even be able to sell the oil at a profit when it comes on line. Some say $120+ USD per barrel to get into production. Some top Engineer's, Economists are watching this very thing right now in top Government Offices in D.F. and have got to be worried about the future state of the Mexican Economy.

2. Next biggest input of revenue for the country was Tourism. In many parts of Mexico they're hurting severely being on US DoD Security Bulletins to avoid. Then there are all the accounts on CNN and others every time there is a "Bloquiaera" of major Baleceras some where, that scares off the Foreigners from coming on vacation.

3. Next "WAS" the reparations from all the Mexicano's working in USA and sending money home supporting millions of families in Mexico. A Mexican relative who lives in Puebla, told us like 5 years ago in the height of the R.E. Bubble in USA - the State Govt. confirmed there were 400,000 Pueblans working in USA. That's just one state. Now Millions of Mexican families (my guess approaching 2 Million people), have had to return to Mexico because of loss of jobs in USA. So now those families are not imputing Millions of Dollars each month supporting the rest of their extended families in Mexico - but are a drain on families here in Mexico until they can get their feet on the ground and find work here, or open up some small business. I see this everyday. 

So, now what happens if say 30-40% of the 1.2 Million American's, Canadians don't qualify (as those illustreous Diputados and Senatores voted on this latest major over haul of the Immigration law? You mean 420,000 +/- (my worst case questimate with what I have been reading about the income requirements alone?) are going to have to leave their homes and move from Mexico? 

*Sorry, but that would be another huge blow to the Mexican Economy, I don't think it can withstand right now?* 

I mean we all employ a gaggle of people to help us in various capacities, and who better than retiree's who spend the vast majority of their income to live "the good life" after 40+ years of work???? Some of us employee more than others, and the effect would be greater. I mean that poor gardener in Ajjiic that talked the ****** into paying him to come water and look after his garden 6 days a week? The examples could be endless.

I sure do thank all you previous posters as I was going to go to the INM Office this week, but after hearing all your stories, I think I will give that another week before I go to let the dust settle out?

*I don't think so!*. 

I think all the comotion some of you generated at the local INM Office in Guadalajara was the first shot against the bow, that's going to have reverberations all through out high Government Offices in D.F.

Things will change with the law as now written - I'm sure of it.

I'd like to hear your further thoughts on my bold statements?


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## diablita

Well Cuylers5746, I hope you are right about the various visa requirements changing but one way or another I'm staying.


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## Isla Verde

> Calmete! Just relax, let the INM Office Staff get more educated to answer your questions in a week or two more. I don't know about your office, but here in Tepic they're the nicest people, hand picked great people from in the community that do what ever possible to bend over backwards to help the people in this community that are ExPats. For instance just two weeks ago they called a lot of us us (we didn't get the call) but friends of ours did and informed us. A party was sponsored, given by local INM Office at local University to help the Expats to get accuainted with each other and the foreign students attending the University.
> 
> Does this sound like an organization looking to kick us out of the country?


It sounds like a real love-fest at INM in Tepic, but I doubt if this happens at most other INM offices around the country, especially in Mexico City, where I live. Though the people who staff the desks and counters here tend to know what they're doing and are generally polite to the hordes of expats they are there to serve, I doubt they're hand-picked and would never invite us to a get-acquainted party. I just want them to follow the new rules (once they figure out what they entail) and treat everyone fairly. I hope this isn't too much to ask.


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## TundraGreen

Isla Verde said:


> It sounds like a real love-fest at INM in Tepic, but I doubt if this happens at most other INM offices around the country, especially in Mexico City, where I live. Though the people who staff the desks and counters here tend to know what they're doing and are generally polite to the hordes of expats they are there to serve, I doubt they're hand-picked and would never invite us to a get-acquainted party. I just want them to follow the new rules (once they figure out what they entail) and treat everyone fairly. I hope this isn't too much to ask.


Ditto in Guadalajara. The INM office has 30 people waiting in line when they open every morning and who knows how many more that show up every day before they close. They are competent and efficient, but you cannot expect personalized service.


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## Belizegirl

So, now what happens if say 30-40% of the 1.2 Million American's, Canadians don't qualify (as those illustreous Diputados and Senatores voted on this latest major over haul of the Immigration law? You mean 420,000 +/- (my worst case questimate with what I have been reading about the income requirements alone?) are going to have to leave their homes and move from Mexico? 

Sorry, I am confused about the statement above, regarding Canadians don't qualify.


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## makaloco

cuylers5746 said:


> So, now what happens if say 30-40% of the 1.2 Million American's, Canadians don't qualify (as those illustreous Diputados and Senatores voted on this latest major over haul of the Immigration law? You mean 420,000 +/- (my worst case questimate with what I have been reading about the income requirements alone?) are going to have to leave their homes and move from Mexico?


But INM stats don't support 420,000 *total documented foreigners*, let alone Americans and Canadians, let alone 1.2 million. Using the INM PDF posted earlier today, I get a total of 183,212 FM2/3 equivalents processed in the first three quarters of 2012, including new and renewals and changes from No Inmigrante to Inmigrante. (Not including the 2,278 Inmigrados, who aren't that relevant here.) So in terms of the new law, if you're talking about 40% at worst not meeting the financial requirements, that represents a loss of 73,285 documented foreigners (97,713 if you extend it to cover the remaining three months of the year), only some of whom will be Americans or Canadians. My guess is that the percentage of those who don't meet the financial requirements will be much smaller than 30-40%, especially among currently documented Americans and Canadians, but we can disagree on that. My main point is that INM's figures weaken the rest of this particular economic argument, which seems to be based on inflated numbers. Assuming the government's rationale for the new requirements (whatever it may be) is strong, they may have decided it's worth the financial bite.


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## TundraGreen

Belizegirl said:


> So, now what happens if say 30-40% of the 1.2 Million American's, Canadians don't qualify (as those illustreous Diputados and Senatores voted on this latest major over haul of the Immigration law? You mean 420,000 +/- (my worst case questimate with what I have been reading about the income requirements alone?) are going to have to leave their homes and move from Mexico?
> 
> Sorry, I am confused about the statement above, regarding Canadians don't qualify.


1.2 million US and Canadians? I don't think so. The last census found about 700 thousand people born in the US and living in Mexico. Almost all of them are children, children with a Mexican heritage. If you dig into the recent census numbers, it looks like INEGI found 10 or 20 thousand US-born adults living in Mexico. The Canadians probably add a few more, I didn't look at them specifically. Even allowing for significant undercount in the census, it is still a long way from 1 million+.


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## Longford

*¡Bienvenidos a Mexico Canadienses! *


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## cuylers5746

*New Immigration Law Changes*

My guestimate on those total Gringos and Canadians that might not qualify under the new Income requirements. That's a big IF, if the recent changes stay in effect.

And, no - I don't believe INEGI figures for a second. And, when were their last census 2000?


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## pappabee

cuylers5746 said:


> My guestimate on those total Gringos and Canadians that might not qualify under the new Income requirements. That's a big IF, if the recent changes stay in effect.
> 
> And, no - I don't believe INEGI figures for a second. And, when were their last census 2000?


This entire line of questioning the number of ex-pats in Mexico is somewhat ludicrous. The last census was taken in 2011 and I have yet to see any of the actual documentation but the way the census was taken it may not have included many of the snowbirds. But it makes very little difference because were only estimating the percentage of people that will have a problem with the new requirements and the percentage of people even care about the new requirements.

As I said before what we need to do was wait until everything shakes out. It'll probably be another week to two weeks before people start seeing what's going on.

Any of you who have worked with any bureaucracy when it changes rules know very well that there are an awful lot of whoops and "I made a mistake". There are also a lot of things that are not specifically covered by the new rules that need to be adjusted. That's going to take time and since we don't have any choice in the matter we might as well give them a chance to take that time.

In my opinion I really don't think that the Mexican government is trying to get rid of a lot of ex-pats that are are living here. I feel what they are trying to do is to ensure that they don't get a lot of ex-pats from various countries who feel that Mexico is where they need to be for very little money. With the economy the way it is in the United States there are an awful lot of people on very limited incomes to want to come to Mexico because they can live less expensively and I think the Mexican government is trying very hard to ensure that those people who do get permission to live here are able to afford to be here.

Rather than get our minds in a tizzy we really need to wait and see what happens. Even those people who are already dealing with immigration can only give information as to what has specifically happened with them that's still not an answer all of our questions.

Everybody just wait hold on and let's see what happens almost everything else that were hearing about is pure speculation.


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## mickisue1

One of the most challenging attributes to attain is patience.

It looks like those in the long lines at the various immigration offices haven't yet learned it.

My guess is that, unless you, personally, are in the position of needing to renew your visa NOW, the best thing to do is to watch and listen.

As pappabee says, why would MX want to get rid of their existing expats? I can see all sorts of reasons for not wanting a zillion new ones, who come in with poorly thought out plans for their lives.

I know some people in Ecuador who are amazed at the number of people who, dazzled by the promise of living on $1000/month and being able to afford a housekeeper, drop their existing lives and leave. They find out, to their dismay, that they're living in a third world country, and leave again. In the meantime, the infrastructure has been beefed up to accommodate the influx of expats, and the cost of living for those already there increases. 

Do you want this to happen to your favorite spot in MX?

Keep in mind that the minimum wage in DF is $62.33 Pesos. Per day. And that's higher than the rest of the country. Makes it hard to compete, even with those living on $1000 retirement funds, doesn't it? And, after all, the people who the government of any country should think of first are those who are native, not those who want to come there to retire cheaply.


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## makaloco

The last census in Mexico was taken in summer 2010. Normally it's linked from the INEGI site, but the link isn't working at the moment.
Instituto Nacional de Estadística y Geografía (INEGI)
Whether or not we believe the numbers are accurate, we need to keep in mind that census and INM statistics are likely to be among those used by the government.


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## Isla Verde

cuylers5746 said:


> And, no - I don't believe INEGI figures for a second. And, when were their last census 2000?


In Mexico the Census is done every 5 years - the last one was in 2010.


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## Isla Verde

mickisue1 said:


> As pappabee says, why would MX want to get rid of their existing expats? I can see all sorts of reasons for not wanting a zillion new ones, who come in with poorly thought out plans for their lives.


They may not have wanted to get rid of some of us, but The Law of Unintended Consequences will make that happen unless the rules are changed to grandfather in those with very modest retirement incomes.


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## DNP

makaloco said:


> ...we need to keep in mind that census and INM statistics are likely to be among those used by the government.


As well they should be.

Northern Virginia, USA, and SMA, MEXICO


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## cuylers5746

*Mexico's new misguided Immigration Law*

I can assure you that it will NOT be worth the "financial bite" to Mexico. Not in the least.

Besides all the other reasons that I listed that it would hurt the Mexican Economy here's another one. It very easily could send the already teetering Mexican Banking Industry over the cliff. The Banks own thousands of thousands of condo units that have been sitting empty-mostly along the coasts. Remember 3 of the largest banks here in Mexico have been Spanish owned for a while. Those banks back home are huge financial basket cases ready to implode.

Ever question where all that "hot money", speculative money that Fed. Head Greenspan generated that caused the US Housing Bubble went to? After 2006, it went south into Mexico and elsewhere to fuel a speculative Condo Boom here in the resorts along the coast of Mexico. Take a trip up and down the coasts ( as I have on the West Coast) and you will find thousands of empty condos. Some of the projects have gone back to the banks and many more will in the future. So, how are they going to sell all those condo's if they discourage ******'s/Canadians from coming south with their new INM Policy?

I read on Bloomberg in articles that the American's have been so hurt financially;
1.) First by the 2002 Crash in the Stock Markets, decimating their 401Ks and then
2.) The Real Estate Bubble Bursting, (that was caused in the first place by the Fed. Govt. and the 
Fed. Reserve). This had been the main source of capital that many had planned on for their
retirement years.

that the average American family now has;

1.) Average of only $24K in their IRA's.
2.) Average equity in their home of mid $50's, (and those aren't upside down in their home equity 
should feel privaledged)

So, I ask you as these Baby Boomers reach retirement age how are they going to meet the Income requirements of these new INM rules even if they're brave enough to risk the violence here in Mexico due to the Drug Cartels? How many American couples will be getting $60K per year in income to meet this requirement?

Everyone should be concerned about this misguided policy - even the Banks of Mexico. Who are they going to sell those condo's to? I've told friends at the bottom of this World Wide Depression I'll be able to buy those condo's that were selling for USA prices in the USA for $100K or less for a 2 bedroom condo! I've already seen some drop half in price in Mazatlan from what they were trying to get when originally built in the upper $300K's.

So, no one should feel smug or comfortable with these new rules, even if you qualify now. The future once the US Dollar ceases to be the World Reserve Currency, will be a whole different day. No, everyone should be concerned about getting the INM to change these new misguided rules.


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## Isla Verde

cuylers5746 said:


> ...
> 
> So, no one should feel smug or comfortable with these new rules, even if you qualify now. The future once the US Dollar ceases to be the World Reserve Currency, will be a whole different day. No, everyone should be concerned about getting the INM to change these new misguided rules.


So what action plan have you devised to get through to the powers-that-be at INM?


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## cuylers5746

*Changes to Mexico's Immigration Law*

Hi Isla Verde;

I have to agree totally with you. 
*Last thing the Mexican Govt. needs to do is alienate thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of ******'s/Canadians that uprooted their life to retire in Mexico, and been here for 5-10 or more years. *

This would be no small bite to the Mexican Economy if thousands have to uproot their life and return to the USA!

*If they have to return to the USA, that's like uleashing all those people as Anti Mexico Lobbyists! And, spread those Lobbyists around 50 States and all the Provinces of Canada. All in one giant chorus "Don't go, visit, move, buy anything made in Mexico (like even a car) from Mexico". Mexico can't be trusted, and is not safe! Don't even take a cruise that goes to Mexico!*

*No, I think cooler, and more intelligent heads will prevail up above the INM to get this misguided policy changed.*


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## cuylers5746

*What could be done.*

Hi, I think everyone should write a letter to;

1.) The Directors of the INM in Mexico City outlining how you think this is such a very foolish policy on their part, and it should be returned to the Income/Capital requirements of the old law, and any other provisions you object to. Many of the changes they will want to keep to comply more with what are UN Standards for Immigration, (that I think they were trying to adhire to), and their new Refugee Policy, they will want to and need to keep.

2.) "El Presidente", himself (the new one) Pieno Nieto, thats coming in. Address to the "Los Pinos", address in D.F.

3.) Let every INM employee at your local office know of your displeasure and tell them to kick this information "upstairs". Sounds like the disruption and anger expressed at the Guadalajara INM Office might be a model for some?

I would not send it to Pres. Calderon. He's made some really disastrous decisions lately right before leaving office. First one come to mind is part of the new Labor Law he unleashed upon Congress/Senate within 3 months of leaving-demanding they pass it before he leaves office in January. Much of the anti-discrimination rules are great but allowing all employers to change employees to hourly wages and send them home early at their discretion is going to really hurt millions of Mexican's working just on the poverty line if it's implemented how employers use it in the USA.


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## tepetapan

cuylers5746 said:


> Hi Isla Verde;
> 
> I have to agree totally with you.
> *Last thing the Mexican Govt. needs to do is alienate thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of ******'s/Canadians that uprooted their life to retire in Mexico, and been here for 5-10 or more years. *
> 
> This would be no small bite to the Mexican Economy if thousands have to uproot their life and return to the USA!
> 
> *If they have to return to the USA, that's like uleashing all those people as Anti Mexico Lobbyists! And, spread those Lobbyists around 50 States and all the Provinces of Canada. All in one giant chorus "Don't go, visit, move, buy anything made in Mexico (like even a car) from Mexico". Mexico can't be trusted, and is not safe! Don't even take a cruise that goes to Mexico!*
> 
> *No, I think cooler, and more intelligent heads will prevail up above the INM to get this misguided policy changed.*


 Actually if you do the math, the expats at , say using some very exaggerated numbers of 150,000 with residency permission VS the population of Mexico at 115 million people, sit at a whooping 0.13% !!
And Mexico´s GNP sits at, in 2012 numbers per World bank, 1.74 Trillion dollars! 
The money the ExPats contribute to Mexico is certainly appreciated but if you think for just a minute and do the math ......expats are always going to be a cost to the Mexican Government and no where near a bargaining chip.
Shut off your bold font, get a calculator out, do the math.


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## cuylers5746

Actually sir, I think you are very naive. If my statement below was was to take place and at worst case (and I think cooler heads will prevail), it surely could be disastrous for the Economy in Mexico.

"If they have to return to the USA, that's like uleashing all those people as Anti Mexico Lobbyists! And, spread those Lobbyists around 50 States and all the Provinces of Canada. All in one giant chorus "Don't go, visit, move, buy anything made in Mexico (like even a car) from Mexico". Mexico can't be trusted, and is not safe! Don't even take a cruise that goes to Mexico!"

Anything economic is based on "faith", even faith in the US Dollar. As group perceptions change - so change whole economies. Pick up a book on Socio-Economics and become enlightened.


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## DNP

cuylers5746 said:


> "...If they have to return to the USA, that's like unleashing all those people as Anti Mexico Lobbyists! And, spread those Lobbyists around 50 States and all the Provinces of Canada. All in one giant chorus "Don't go, visit, move, buy anything made in Mexico (like even a car) from Mexico". Mexico can't be trusted, and is not safe! Don't even take a cruise that goes to Mexico!.


What/Who are you quoting?

Northern Virginia, USA, and SMA, MEXICO


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## Isla Verde

tepetapan said:


> The money the ExPats contribute to Mexico is certainly appreciated but if you think for just a minute and do the math ......expats are always going to be a cost to the Mexican Government and no where near a bargaining chip.


I don't see how expats cost the Mexican government anything! In my case, I pay my rent and utility bills on time and spend a good portion of my retirement income in my neighborhood and around the city. Also, I provide a much-needed service to my English students and translation and editing clients for reasonable fees, on which I pay taxes every month to the Mexican government. What I get from the government is an INAPAM card, which gets me into the movies for $30 instead of $50 and allows me a discount on long-distance bus fares, which does not come out of the government's budget. So you tell me how I am a burden on the Mexican government?


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## joaquinx

DNP said:


> What/Who are you quoting?


Creative policy making. When the facts don't reflect reality, Foxify them.


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## pappabee

I really get upset when people use false information and false facts in order to try to make a scary point.

Your fact about the average American home being at $50,000 equity is not correct and if you will follow the attached link you will see that the American homeowner is doing much better than they did last year. And no where close to $50,000 in equity.
Americans' home equity near a record low - Business - Real estate | NBC News

You also say that it takes $60,000 a year for a couple to qualify to live in Mexico, another one of your false facts. Even if you take $1900 a month per person figure that comes to $3800 a month and unless my calculator is all messed up that comes to $45,600 a year not very close to $60,000. As has already been said turn off your bold go research your facts and then come back and say something.

I'm sorry but any time I read a post where there are glaring errors I figure that everything being said makes no sense at all.


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## tepetapan

cuylers5746 said:


> Actually sir, I think you are very naive. If my statement below was was to take place and at worst case (and I think cooler heads will prevail), it surely could be disastrous for the Economy in Mexico.
> 
> "If they have to return to the USA, that's like uleashing all those people as Anti Mexico Lobbyists! And, spread those Lobbyists around 50 States and all the Provinces of Canada. All in one giant chorus "Don't go, visit, move, buy anything made in Mexico (like even a car) from Mexico". Mexico can't be trusted, and is not safe! Don't even take a cruise that goes to Mexico!"
> 
> Anything economic is based on "faith", even faith in the US Dollar. As group perceptions change - so change whole economies. Pick up a book on Socio-Economics and become enlightened.


 Well Sir, I may well be naive but you Sir are not doing the math. Mexico needs ExPats like you like they need another case of swine flu... a real pain in the ass but nothing more.
Unleashing what 0. 014% of the population of the USA to complain about Mexico. WOW! Why not set up pickets lines today in DF? Burn a few buses, heck everyone else does, Oh wait, you are not a citizen of Mexico. 
Using the economy of mexico as an example that just shows how little you know and understand Mexico´s economy, banking and monetary system. 
P.S. Thanks for not using bold letters. It was almost as annoying as reading your posts.


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## makaloco

Numbers aside, I don't see how it works to argue, on one hand, how badly baby boomers in the US have been hurt by the economic crisis … and at the same time argue what a substantial loss it will be to Mexico if they don't retire here in droves, presumably on their pitifully small assets. In that context, they hardly come across as potential buyers for those empty condos on the coast.

Also, I can't help feeling it's condescending to assume that we know better what's good for the country than the Mexican government does. Maybe I'm naïve, but I'm giving them credit for having thought things through, at least to the extent that any government does.

What upsets me is the possibility of people having to leave who have lived here for years, legally and pulling their own weight economically. It's sad, and it's not fair, and I'm hoping it doesn't turn out that way. Personally, I don't feel in the least "smug and comfortable", because I'm still not 100% sure where I fall in the picture.


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## johnmex

cuylers5746 said:


> I would not send it to Pres. Calderon. He's made some really disastrous decisions lately right before leaving office. First one come to mind is part of the new Labor Law he unleashed upon Congress/Senate within 3 months of leaving-demanding they pass it before he leaves office in January. Much of the anti-discrimination rules are great but allowing all employers to change employees to hourly wages and send them home early at their discretion is going to really hurt millions of Mexican's working just on the poverty line if it's implemented how employers use it in the USA.


The new labor law lets businesses hire temporary workers on an hourly basis (read part-time) thus freeing them from the burden caused by having to pay a "liquidacion" to a full time worker upon laying him/her off. This will give many businesses the chance to employ MORE people whom they may not have hired otherwise.


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## cuylers5746

Hi Johnmex;

Have to disagree. Currently employers can, and some do put employees on 3 month temporary contracts so that they don't have to pay those costs on seperation. This new law will even allow more abuse.


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## Isla Verde

johnmex said:


> The new labor law lets businesses hire temporary workers on an hourly basis (read part-time) thus freeing them from the burden caused by having to pay a "liquidacion" to a full time worker upon laying him/her off. This will give many businesses the chance to employ MORE people whom they may not have hired otherwise.


Unscrupulous employers here have been doing something similar for years. They hire people on three-month contracts and then rehire them when the first contract is up, thus avoiding paying them benefits. This provision you mention sounds like a variation of that practice.


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## johnmex

Unscrupulous employers will always exsist, abusing whatever law is currently in place. Why should scrupulous employers have to pay for their sins?


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## jjroth2

Do financial qualifications apply to the individual or to combined of both spouses?


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## FHBOY

Longford said:


> *¡Bienvenidos a Mexico Canadienses! *


"...who are like the people listening to the great party going on at your place from their apartment one floor above you." 

(which was probably truer up until the mid first decade of the 21st Century).


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## conorkilleen

FHBOY said:


> "...who are like the people listening to the great party going on at your place from their apartment one floor above you."
> 
> (which was probably truer up until the mid first decade of the 21st Century).


Minerva Pale Ale just came out my nose and got my Macbook wet.


----------



## conklinwh

pappabee said:


> I really get upset when people use false information and false facts in order to try to make a scary point.
> 
> Your fact about the average American home being at $50,000 equity is not correct and if you will follow the attached link you will see that the American homeowner is doing much better than they did last year. And no where close to $50,000 in equity.
> Americans' home equity near a record low - Business - Real estate | NBC News
> 
> You also say that it takes $60,000 a year for a couple to qualify to live in Mexico, another one of your false facts. Even if you take $1900 a month per person figure that comes to $3800 a month and unless my calculator is all messed up that comes to $45,600 a year not very close to $60,000. As has already been said turn off your bold go research your facts and then come back and say something.
> 
> I'm sorry but any time I read a post where there are glaring errors I figure that everything being said makes no sense at all.


I don't really have a "horse" in this discussion but do like to follow links.

I really can't understand the purpose of the above link as I thought would be positive from the context used but it is about the most negative that I've read in a long time.
What was the purpose?


----------



## pappabee

The purpose was to show that he figures were not correct. The average home in the US has more than a $50,000 equity and that equity is going up. That's all.


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## conklinwh

pappabee said:


> The purpose was to show that he figures were not correct. The average home in the US has more than a $50,000 equity and that equity is going up. That's all.


I saw no numbers on the the amount of equity but rather percentages that have gone up but the article attributed the majority of that increase to foreclosures that took a large amount of under water mortgages off the books. Was this the number? Is this supposed to be a positive statement? I think a more interesting number would be to see a distribution of mortgage amounts versus appraised value.


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## edgeee

conklinwh said:


> I saw no numbers on the the amount of equity but rather percentages that have gone up but the article attributed the majority of that increase to foreclosures that took a large amount of under water mortgages off the books. Was this the number? Is this supposed to be a positive statement? I think a more interesting number would be to see a distribution of mortgage amounts versus appraised value.


Correct. The word 'average' is used constantly, to poor effect.
Statistics can be used in so many different ways they seldom have much real usefulness.


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## TundraGreen

Meanwhile in Spain they are giving permanent residency permits away. All you have to do is buy one of the underwater houses, financially underwater, not literally, that is.

Spain: Residency for foreigners who buy houses


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## Longford

conklinwh said:


> I saw no numbers on the the amount of equity but rather percentages that have gone up but the article attributed the majority of that increase to foreclosures that took a large amount of under water mortgages off the books. Was this the number? Is this supposed to be a positive statement? I think a more interesting number would be to see a distribution of mortgage amounts versus appraised value.


I can only speak to my personal experience, and the experience of neighbors and friends the situations of whom I am familiar. 

Prior to the burst of the real estate bubble ... my condominium in Chicago had a market value of about $325,00. That's what comparable units in my building were selling for. 

The sales price today for these comparable units is about $115,000. One, sold as the result of a foreclosure sale two weeks ago, went for $58,000. That's the most extreme, bad price. For tax calculation purposes my unit is identified as having a value of about $140,000. But the appraised values applied by lenders are being determined by recent, comparable unit sales in the building and immediate vicinity. 

I have about $285,000 cash into the unit ... mortgage, upgrades, etc. Because I had a huge down payment when I purchased the unit, if it sold today I'd get back enough to retire the balance on my mortgage ... but certainly not enough to recover the cash I've got in the unit. Across much of Chicagoland the situation is similar. 

Before the bubble burst, I assumed I'd sell the unit when I wanted to retire and relocate to Mexico and the equity would not only allow me to purchase a place in Mexico but stash the surplus into my retirement account or purchase a small condo in the USA ... for a 'rainy day.' 

I see/know of many 'short sales' where people, mostly under-35, are walking away from their units even though they can afford the monthly mortgage payments. They want to start their lives over, out from under debt which is at a level substantially greater than the value of the real estate. They're willing to take a 4 year or so 'hit' on their credit rating to move their lives along. 

Those of us left behind in these buildings/neighborhoods get screwed because the short sale / foreclosure prices are low, force the market lower and we lose, lose and continue to lose. It sort of pisses me off that those of us who've been responsible, paid our debts on time, etc., continue to get punished for a situation which we had no responsibility for creating. The bankers aren't in jail. And the taxpayers are covering their losses. It's a screwed-up world.


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## sag42

Now in Spain the government is offering instant residency to foreigners who buy a home. While in the US, Homeland Security is promoting welfare to new immigrants in welcome materials. And in Mexico what? Go figure.


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## AlanMexicali

Longford said:


> I can only speak to my personal experience, and the experience of neighbors and friends the situations of whom I am familiar.
> 
> Prior to the burst of the real estate bubble ... my condominium in Chicago had a market value of about $325,00. That's what comparable units in my building were selling for.
> 
> The sales price today for these comparable units is about $115,000. One, sold as the result of a foreclosure sale two weeks ago, went for $58,000. That's the most extreme, bad price. For tax calculation purposes my unit is identified as having a value of about $140,000. But the appraised values applied by lenders are being determined by recent, comparable unit sales in the building and immediate vicinity.
> 
> I have about $285,000 cash into the unit ... mortgage, upgrades, etc. Because I had a huge down payment when I purchased the unit, if it sold today I'd get back enough to retire the balance on my mortgage ... but certainly not enough to recover the cash I've got in the unit. Across much of Chicagoland the situation is similar.
> 
> Before the bubble burst, I assumed I'd sell the unit when I wanted to retire and relocate to Mexico and the equity would not only allow me to purchase a place in Mexico but stash the surplus into my retirement account or purchase a small condo in the USA ... for a 'rainy day.'
> 
> I see/know of many 'short sales' where people, mostly under-35, are walking away from their units even though they can afford the monthly mortgage payments. They want to start their lives over, out from under debt which is at a level substantially greater than the value of the real estate. They're willing to take a 4 year or so 'hit' on their credit rating to move their lives along.
> 
> Those of us left behind in these buildings/neighborhoods get screwed because the short sale / foreclosure prices are low, force the market lower and we lose, lose and continue to lose. It sort of pisses me off that those of us who've been responsible, paid our debts on time, etc., continue to get punished for a situation which we had no responsibility for creating. The bankers aren't in jail. And the taxpayers are covering their losses. It's a screwed-up world.


I am one of those who has rented since selling my house in San Diego and am in a large 55 and older condo complex and have been looking for a condo there which as you describe is in the same situation as your complex is in. 

Many paid almost 70% more just before the housing bubble burst and do not want to sell. The ones that do want to sell either bought many years ago or bought after the bubble burst and they are going cheap now. The 3 1/2 years rent I pay will not hurt me as it was very reduced and has not gone up, yet. The condo fees just went up from $148.00 per month to $174.00 which is an attraction for the size, location, security and amendities it has.

The reason there are many people not selling before was because there was a non availablity of mortgage lenders, including the VA and FIC, because it has over a 50% renter to owner occupied ratio complex and got away with parking spaces for only 1 1/2 cars per 4 units when built. Since the federal regulations now are in place mortgage lenders have to apply the rules and allow lenders to have the lower interest, low down payment, secured mortgages. Since then they have been selling again. At one time lenders wanted about 40% down.


----------



## jjroth2

TundraGreen said:


> Meanwhile in Spain they are giving permanent residency permits away. All you have to do is buy one of the underwater houses, financially underwater, not literally, that is.
> 
> Spain: Residency for foreigners who buy houses


The real estate expert at International Living wrote a couple of months ago that Spanish banks were offering almost 100 percent financing on certain new condos that have never been sold.


----------



## conklinwh

Longford said:


> I can only speak to my personal experience, and the experience of neighbors and friends the situations of whom I am familiar.
> 
> Prior to the burst of the real estate bubble ... my condominium in Chicago had a market value of about $325,00. That's what comparable units in my building were selling for.
> 
> The sales price today for these comparable units is about $115,000. One, sold as the result of a foreclosure sale two weeks ago, went for $58,000. That's the most extreme, bad price. For tax calculation purposes my unit is identified as having a value of about $140,000. But the appraised values applied by lenders are being determined by recent, comparable unit sales in the building and immediate vicinity.
> 
> I have about $285,000 cash into the unit ... mortgage, upgrades, etc. Because I had a huge down payment when I purchased the unit, if it sold today I'd get back enough to retire the balance on my mortgage ... but certainly not enough to recover the cash I've got in the unit. Across much of Chicagoland the situation is similar.
> 
> Before the bubble burst, I assumed I'd sell the unit when I wanted to retire and relocate to Mexico and the equity would not only allow me to purchase a place in Mexico but stash the surplus into my retirement account or purchase a small condo in the USA ... for a 'rainy day.'
> 
> I see/know of many 'short sales' where people, mostly under-35, are walking away from their units even though they can afford the monthly mortgage payments. They want to start their lives over, out from under debt which is at a level substantially greater than the value of the real estate. They're willing to take a 4 year or so 'hit' on their credit rating to move their lives along.
> 
> Those of us left behind in these buildings/neighborhoods get screwed because the short sale / foreclosure prices are low, force the market lower and we lose, lose and continue to lose. It sort of pisses me off that those of us who've been responsible, paid our debts on time, etc., continue to get punished for a situation which we had no responsibility for creating. The bankers aren't in jail. And the taxpayers are covering their losses. It's a screwed-up world.


I'm in somewhat of a similar situation but not so large a problem. I knew when we remodeled and re-lanscaped that we would never get our out of pocket back but we did set a minimum and was easily under appraised value. Our unit dropped some $100-150K. We aren't underwater but a lot of equity gone that we had planned for.

Net for us was to rent place in NC and live longer in what we built as a casita in Mexico rather than build house we planned.

Unlike you, I don't blame the banks. Companies will figure out how to make money in what was a legal manner fostered by the change in banking regulations. 

Politics has a lot of unintended consequences when government tries to use policy to accomplish a social goal. In this case it was to broaden home ownership.


----------



## Longford

conklinwh said:


> Unlike you, I don't blame the banks. Companies will figure out how to make money in what was a legal manner fostered by the change in banking regulations.


A rather ignorant response, I'm thinking.


----------



## Isla Verde

Longford said:


> A rather ignorant response, I'm thinking.


I think of it more as one that reveals where his sympathies lie, obviously not on the side of the government.


----------



## Longford

Isla Verde said:


> I think of it more as one that reveals where his sympathies lie, obviously not on the side of the government.


Not on the side of taxpayers and mortgage-holders who've honored their obligations, either. I read it as more of a defense of the not-worthy-of-defending financial institutions (and other mortgage lenders/brokers) who played fast and loose often with investor/depositor funds knowing taxpayers would, in the end, almost certainly cover the losses (or substantial portions).


----------



## Isla Verde

Longford said:


> Not on the side of taxpayers and mortgage-holders who've honored their obligations, either. I read it as more of a defense of the not-worthy-of-defending financial institutions (and other mortgage lenders/brokers) who played fast and loose often with investor/depositor funds knowing taxpayers would, in the end, almost certainly cover the losses (or substantial portions).


That too!


----------



## pappabee

First of all, let's put the blame in the different pockets where it belongs. 25 years ago in order for a bank to lend money it was required to have a debt to capital ratio of at least 80%. That means that it had to have assets available equal to 80% of the loans outstanding. 5 years ago that figure was less than 10%. A tremendous different in the risks. Those changes were approved by the US Government. It is correct that the changes were designed to allow more people to own homes. We also went from 20% or more down to a split deal where the first mortgage is 80% and then the second one it for the 20%. 

Now let's look at the mortgage companies. Almost all new home builders had their own mortgage companies. As a matter of fact they offered discounts to buyers to use their "in house" companies. Their major concern was to process homes. Now let's look at the independent and brokers. There job was to process homes and get the underwriters to approve the loan so that they could get their commission. 

Do you notice something? None of them are concerned with the buyers ability to repay the loan. At one time you needed a credit score of over 600 to qualify for a mortgage. With the birth of the sub prime market you might qualify with a 400.

Come on now! From the Federal Government to the buyer themselves, everyone was to blame. And I'm going to really get myself in trouble, the buyer was as much to blame as anyone else. Yes the different agencies made it possible for them to over spend, but no one held a gun to their heads and made them. 

The mortgage bubble has been building for over 15 years and with the recession and the number of people out of work, it just imploded. The major reason that property values fell is one-the property was over valued to start with and two-people just don't have that much money and no one will lend it to them.


----------



## mickisue1

jjroth2 said:


> The real estate expert at International Living wrote a couple of months ago that Spanish banks were offering almost 100 percent financing on certain new condos that have never been sold.


And IL is SO trustworthy!


----------



## jjroth2

mickisue1 said:


> And IL is SO trustworthy!


Once again, mickisue, you have smoked me out. If you're in the Lakeside area in the next few months, I challenge you to a darts throwing contest. Perhaps FHB can join us.

As for International Living, I first came into contact with them through their newsletter in 1996 promoting life outside the US with an eye on those looking for a better life on earnings that didn't go that far within our borders. They also had real estate listings for those of greater means. 

I lost contact with them for several years until attending one of their gatherings in Miami in 2004. They had since become a major force in introducing potential expats to an expanded view of the world. The following year I attended their conference in Panama, which was a real eye opener as to a good life elsewhere. Around 2007, I traveled to another IL event, this time in Las Vegas. They had greatly expanded their purview of opportunities in diverse areas. Rubbing elbows with those of like mind was very helpful while being exposed to many outside opportunities.

Mexico was always high on their list as a first-rate retirement opportunity, even as they expanded their coverage to a variety of countries. In fact, it was while attending a chill weekend at a Tulum resort about two years ago, promoted by their real estate expert, that I discovered the Lakeside. In its August issue last year of their now monthly magazine they rated the Lakeside as one of the top places in the world to retire. In other words, IL had become huge in promoting the world around us.

With your usual perspercacity and objectivity, however, you have apparently uncovered something I missed about IL.


----------



## FHBOY

jjroth2 said:


> Once again, mickisue, you have smoked me out. If you're in the Lakeside area in the next few months, I challenge you to a darts throwing contest. Perhaps FHB can join us..
> 
> With your usual perspercacity and objectivity, however, you have apparently uncovered something I missed about IL.


You're on - any time after January 11th! See, that is what I have been talking about here - we can all disagree on something but in the end...wait a minute, I'm gonna trust someone with a sharp pointy object made for throwing?!?! No, really, that is the great thing...we'll all have to meet each other and know we will meet each other again and the civility that can get lost on keyboards will emerge IRL - Looking forward to it!

I never read or even heard of IL. Maybe I'll look into it.

As to Pappabee's post (he would also have to join us for darts-as would RVG and Lady RVG), I agree with him. We can take this "It's not my fault (responsibility)" argument just so far and lay the blame on others, but the fact remains that people who got into trouble, in some cases, should have been aware of what they were doing. I mean shouldn't you be aware of what you can afford to acquire? Sure, sales people have pressure and tactics, but come on, you need have the ultimate responsibility for yourself.

I, too, can remember the "old days" when we bought our first house and we needed the I/E ration, the down payment and the good credit score. But re-read that sentence...the operative term is "we". It was/is our responsibility...in the end Walt Kelley's Pogo stands correct. We are responsible for our selves, we are responsible to choose whom we do business with, we are responsible for those we put in power to represent us. Unless and until people being to once again take responsibility for their own actions...we will not get the responsible lives we so deserve.

One last nostalgic point: when we of a certain age, were kids we bought or got toys and such. Think for a second, the baseball bat did not come with a warning label, that BB gun did have warning, the water propelled jet rocket had no warning labels on it, we were taught either by parents, older siblings or by our own actions how to use that toy, ride the bike. If we got hurt, it was not a the cause for a lawsuit, we got hurt, it was an accident/learning experience. We didn't run to Mom or Dad, the lawyer next door and say "Sue them, their product hurt us." No, we did not. And McDonald's (or Chock Full o'Nuts) coffee was...gee whiz...HOT! You could burn yourself...duh!

Unfortunately, a greater part of our USA society has turned into people seeking to blame others. It is another thing I like about Mexico, it seems such litigious thinking is reserved only for major, major things, and that people still take personal responsibility. Aren't there a lot less lawyers in Mexico, per capita than the USA?

Hoo-rah!

Happy Thanksgiving everyone! Next year in Ajijic!


----------



## Longford

FHBOY said:


> Unfortunately, a greater part of our USA society has turned into people seeking to blame others.


You're sounding like Mitt Romney ... and his characterization of the "47%". I'm sensing you don't travel much in the USA or associate with a lot of people.



FHBOY said:


> It is another thing I like about Mexico, it seems such litigious thinking is reserved only for major, major things, and that people still take personal responsibility. Aren't there a lot less lawyers in Mexico, per capita than the USA?


You're in for a real suprise. I doubt you're going to enjoy living in Mexico.

Happy Thanksgiving!


----------



## conklinwh

Longford said:


> A rather ignorant response, I'm thinking.


Not sure why you think ignorant! Not sure why disagreement is ignorance. I did you the courtesy of giving you my view with no personal reference and would expect likewise.

And yes Isla, I do believe in the free market system versus government trying to manipulate the economy. I thought that I was being mild with use of unintended consequences.

The banking changes in the 1997 timeframe had unintended and disastrous consequences.
Present Dodd-Frank also has imbed a potentially disastrous set of similar issues that have yet to play out.


----------



## AlanMexicali

*Limited liability in Mexico*



> It is another thing I like about Mexico, it seems such litigious thinking is reserved only for major, major things, and that people still take personal responsibility. Aren't there a lot less lawyers in Mexico, per capita than the USA? [End quote]
> 
> FHBOY you are right about the "Limited Liability" that all Mexican Institutions have set up in their social democracy type system in Mexico and it has carried over into the private sector as well. Longford doesn´t seem to understand the system here all that well at times and sees things from a view of limited experience quite possibly. IMO. Alan


----------



## conklinwh

Longford said:


> You're sounding like Mitt Romney ... and his characterization of the "47%". I'm sensing you don't travel much in the USA or associate with a lot of people.
> 
> 
> 
> You're in for a real suprise. I doubt you're going to enjoy living in Mexico.
> 
> Happy Thanksgiving!


Actually FHBoy made some great points.

He basically said that people today are much less likely to take responsibility for their own actions. Love the Pogo reference to "We seen the enemy and it is us!".

I have no idea how you relate this to any 47% as it looks to be pretty pervasive across society. Really difficult to relate comments on taking personal responsibility to any comment about people expecting handouts. Former is right and hopefully latter is wrong.

Also your comment about moving to Mexico and a less litigious society is far from naive on FHBoy's part. From basically the 1st year we moved to Mexico, we were told that unlike the US liability insurance and umbrella policies are not necessary in Mexico.

That has been our experience over the last 9-10 years as nobody we have ever heard of involved in one of the frivolous lawsuits so common in the US. We have even stopped remarking about trails, steps, wells, broken sidewalks, etc. and how in the US that they were lawsuits waiting to happen.


----------



## conklinwh

Longford said:


> Not on the side of taxpayers and mortgage-holders who've honored their obligations, either. I read it as more of a defense of the not-worthy-of-defending financial institutions (and other mortgage lenders/brokers) who played fast and loose often with investor/depositor funds knowing taxpayers would, in the end, almost certainly cover the losses (or substantial portions).


Look, there were banking laws changed that caused a major shift in the mortgage process. Congress knew that Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac would be the lenders of last resort and that they had claim on taxpayer dollars. The FM's were protected from any outside review by Frank and Dodd for almost 10 years when blew up. The FM's were basically run by Democrat appointees that received huge severance payoffs.

There is enough blame to go around. As a free market person, I would never have bailed out the banks or anyone else.


----------



## AlanMexicali

*Taking care of business in Mexico*



conklinwh said:


> Actually FHBoy made some great points.
> 
> He basically said that people today are much less likely to take responsibility for their own actions. Love the Pogo reference to "We seen the enemy and it is us!".
> 
> I have no idea how you relate this to any 47% as it looks to be pretty pervasive across society. Really difficult to relate comments on taking personal responsibility to any comment about people expecting handouts. Former is right and hopefully latter is wrong.
> 
> Also your comment about moving to Mexico and a less litigious society is far from naive on FHBoy's part. From basically the 1st year we moved to Mexico, we were told that unlike the US liability insurance and umbrella policies are not necessary in Mexico.
> 
> That has been our experience over the last 9-10 years as nobody we have ever heard of involved in one of the frivolous lawsuits so common in the US. We have even stopped remarking about trails, steps, wells, broken sidewalks, etc. and how in the US that they were lawsuits waiting to happen.


Quite right and I might add about lawsuits/reporting people to authorities etc. here in Mexico that people generally accept the FACT that when you mess with someone be prepared to get tougher than those who you messed with or suffer the consequences. If the consequences are, for example, you getting fired from your job all of a sudden or worse, you have brought in upon yourself by messing with the wrong guy. A " live and let live" temperament goes a long way still today here, just like it "used" to when I grew up. FHBOY had it right.


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## sunnyvmx

Here in Mexico if you bang your head on an awning as you're walking down the sidewalk, the shop owner runs out to you and says, " Why didn't you see it, it was low enough?"


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## sparks

This thread has wandered off subject so much I don't even want to look. Guess I'll just be patient and wait for some real immigration developments


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## edgeee

sparks said:


> This thread has wandered off subject so much I don't even want to look. Guess I'll just be patient and wait for some real immigration developments


Ditto.
Does anyone feel like starting a thread called "How the housing bubble ruined my life"? (Please do it in the junkyard.)
Meanwhile all the renters are saying, Gosh i wish i had your problems.


----------



## Isla Verde

edgeee said:


> Ditto.
> Does anyone feel like starting a thread called "How the housing bubble ruined my life"? (Please do it in the junkyard.)
> Meanwhile all the renters are saying, Gosh i wish i had your problems.


To tell the truth, after hearing a couple of sad stories from friends who lost their homes due to foreclosure during this housing bubble mess, I feel lucky that I never had enough money to buy a house or condo that I might have ended up losing anyway. Does that make any sense?


----------



## FHBOY

A word about my channeling Mitt Romney. I did not even think of him or his followers when I wrote it. It is just what should be. Romney and his followers have not cornered the market on responsibility, just exploited it to political gain. 

I work with the homeless at a shelter and outreach center in Baltimore. I see the people so despised as "handout takers" every day. None of them skip on in for their free meal, none of them are proud of their clothing. The myth of the welfare moms do not exist in the real world where I volunteer. So I reject, out of hand, the notion that anyone wants to need to have a handout.

Our center has had success stories, plenty of them - people who hit a bad patch, some for a long time - I suggest you read about it Paul's Place Inc. before there is any judgement.

As to cornering good basic ideals for political gain, I remember the presidential campaign of 2004, when the GWB team "owned" the American Flag. Yes those were the first days of backdrops and such and there was always a plethora of flags behind George - with the meaning that W and the Republicans were the true patriots and they represented the flag. I volunteered for Gen. Wes Clark that campaign and I was never prouder of him than when, during his stump speeches, he would walk to the back of the stage, pick up the flag, walk back to the podium and say "This belongs to all of us." The symbolism of that act was very strong.

There are somethings that are universal, above politics and above prejudice and those things are basic values - as we've been discussing - responsibility. To use that, to politicize that, as was done in the campaign this year is to detract from all of us.

No one wants to be poor, to aspire to live on the streets, who hopes to have a minimum wage job that doesn't meet their basic living expenses, who has a physical or mental challenge that makes them unable to work. No one wakes up one day to say, "I want to live in poverty, I want to live on the kindness of others, I want to have no personal responsibilities, I do not want a good life." Just come to my shelter, and take a look at people, our guests are not looking for a handout, just a bit of help to allow them some dignity and the chance, just a chance, to be self reliant. We offer them a decent hot meal, a place to take a shower, work to try and get a GED, and you know, there are many people using these faculties.

In "Trading Places" one of the characters says that the way to make rich people suffer is to take away their wealth. I would like to see that - and then I'd like to see them make the same smug comments. Follow the message of "Trading Places" or of the [really bad] Mel Brooks film, "Life Stinks".

Sorry, too much time on my hands right now, and I can't get my mind around the idea that any one candidate, any one political party owns any ideal of the USA or of humanity.


----------



## FHBOY

sparks said:


> This thread has wandered off subject so much I don't even want to look.  Guess I'll just be patient and wait for some real immigration developments


So true, but while we await some more factual info, there is no reason not to discuss things even tangentially related.

Me, I'm waiting to hear from the Consulate in DC in response to my email. As I said, I'll post it as soon as I get it.


----------



## makaloco

sparks said:


> This thread has wandered off subject so much I don't even want to look. Guess I'll just be patient and wait for some real immigration developments


I have an immigration report, but it's pretty boring. From a trip to La Paz INM yesterday:

* Friend due for 3rd refrendo as Inmigrante (going into 4th year) applied for Temporal without showing financial info. They say it will be ready in a couple of weeks. She can apply for Permanente next time, at the end of her fourth year.

* I'm already on my 4th refrendo (beginning of 5th year) as Inmigrante and asked if I could apply for Permanente any time. They said I don't switch over to the new system until my card is due to expire.

The office was crowded because of the long weekend, but everybody was calm and friendly as usual. Neither agents nor clients seemed to be panicking over the new requirements or procedures. The agent did tell my friend she would pay at the end of the process instead of in advance, to allow INM and the banks to get fully coordinated on the new procedures.


----------



## joaquinx

FHBOY said:


> Me, I'm waiting to hear from the Consulate in DC in response to my email. As I said, I'll post it as soon as I get it.


Since you live close to DC, I would go to the consulate as consulates, and in particular Mexican consulates, seldom answer emails.


----------



## RVGRINGO

Answering e-mails, or returning phone calls, is not part of the Mexican culture; nor is being on time or keeping appointments, etc.
It is something you'll have to adjust to. Face to face works, if the deal can be 'done' at that moment.


----------



## FHBOY

joaquinx said:


> Since you live close to DC, I would go to the consulate as consulates, and in particular Mexican consulates, seldom answer emails.


I thought so also and was surprised when Ms. Cevantes called me back. It only took three days of consecutive voice mail messages. I figure if I don't hear from her again, I'll call on Monday, Tuesday and maybe Wednesday, go to DC. Since I am only collecting info and may not have the needed documentation it will be Trip 1 of 2. 

But, as RV says, you're retired now, you've got the time!

BTW - I have not doubt that Mexican bureaucrats are no worse than USA bureaucrats. It took the IRS over 10 days to return my call, the State of Maryland was three and then there were four different opinions after I spoke with them. 

The biggest oxymoron: "government worker"


----------



## Longford

AlanMexicali said:


> Longford doesn´t seem to understand the system here all that well at times and sees things from a view of limited experience quite possibly. IMO. Alan


Which comments of mine are you making reference to, that makes you think I "don't seem to understand the system here ... "?


----------



## Longford

FHBOY said:


> The biggest oxymoron: "government worker"


Sounds like a repeat of the Romneyisms and right-wing jargon. Let's just shut-down all of the government offices and let people fend for themselves. That's an idea I suspect you'd not be happy with. Wait until you deal with the various government-related offices in Mexico. I don't think you're going to like living in Mexico.


----------



## edgeee

FHBOY said:


> . . .
> I work with the homeless at a shelter and outreach center in Baltimore. I see the people so despised as "handout takers" every day. None of them skip on in for their free meal, none of them are proud of their clothing. The myth of the welfare moms do not exist in the real world where I volunteer. So I reject, out of hand, the notion that anyone wants to need to have a handout. . .
> 
> No one wants to be poor, to aspire to live on the streets, who hopes to have a minimum wage job that doesn't meet their basic living expenses, who has a physical or mental challenge that makes them unable to work. No one wakes up one day to say, "I want to live in poverty, I want to live on the kindness of others, I want to have no personal responsibilities, I do not want a good life." Just come to my shelter, and take a look at people, our guests are not looking for a handout, just a bit of help to allow them some dignity and the chance, just a chance, to be self reliant. We offer them a decent hot meal, a place to take a shower, work to try and get a GED, and you know, there are many people using these faculties.


I have been there and it's no fun.
Getting laid off does not make you a loser but it does feel that way.
And don't even mention what it means to your kids and friends.
Oddly enough, your circle of friends suddenly shrinks. Well, duh!

But your kids are stuck with you. They endure the stigma, and the experience will never go away. 
There is nothing quite like explaining to a child why Santa won't be here this year.
That's why i decided to explain that Santa was imaginary.
Boy, did i pay a steep price for that one.

But the point is that those who have wealth have no way to understand what it is like to be impoverished. 
As FHBOY illustrates, the only way to understand is to try to do something about it, and most don't want to.
Instead, those with assets and wealth complain that the 'losers' didn't work hard enough to overcome poverty.
They just haven't earned the right to complain.
Never mind that their efforts were somehow negated by the efforts of someone with more money and power, to the point that nothing they did had any effect at all. 
If they just worked harder their life would be better. Ha Ha.
It may not be obvious, but no one works harder to improve their life than the ones on food stamps. 
People on welfare of any kind want desperately to leave it behind them.

What does this have to do with Immigration Law Changes?
Well, for someone like me it means that my only escape route may be closed.
Just when i thought i had a path that would allow me to survive beyond homelessness Mexico puts up a "Do Not Enter" sign.
Maybe $1500 USD will still be enough, but maybe not.
At this point no one really knows.
But at least i can take comfort in the knowledge that i have the internet to guide me.
Too many vets are lost on the streets living under overpasses without the advantages i have.
If you served in Iraq or Afghanistan you are a hero.
If you served in Viet Nam you are a bum.
I see this every time i visit my local VA for medical care.
These people are not just forgotten and ignored, they are victimized.
But since they are a small segment of the population, they deserve no consideration.
Such is life, as we know it.


----------



## cuylers5746

*Keeping the Dream Alive*

Hey, Edgee;

I think there's almost always a way to get what you want if you really want it.

For yourself, if you don't meet the new income requirements think about relocating in Mexico where you can drive to the border with 8 hours or less, and just make the trip up and back twice a year to get your INM Tourist Card for another 6 months. Things always seem to have a way of changing in the future, and maybe you will qualify then?

I've written several comments in this now 28 pages of comments related to how I think this new Immigration Policy (at least as far as the income) is terribly misguided and going to have quite an impact on a lot of communities if people have to leave. It's not really in Mexico's best interest and some where down the line I think they will realize this and probably go back to the old income requirements?

Everywhere from Aguas Calietes, San Luis Potosi, Guanjuato, San Miguel de Allende, Hildago, Queretaro fall into that 8 hour category and are relatively safe communities to live in. The Bahia San Carlos is a delightful, stunningly beautiful area on the Sea of Cortes to live in Sonora and it's only like 5 hours to the border. All of the above major cities have inexpensive First Class Direct Bus Services to and from the Border to make it quite easy for you.

So, don't give up on your dream - I think you can with a little inventiveness work around the rules and still be within the law.


----------



## TundraGreen

edgeee said:


> …
> If you served in Viet Nam you are a bum.
> …


As Curly of the Three Stooges famously once said, "I resemble that remark".


----------



## Guest

*dreams shattered!*

I have been told Mexico is opening its doors to Spain & Portugal.....we poor Saffas can go to hell in a handbasket! Thanks to our prez....


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## DNP

gerda whiteman said:


> I have been told Mexico is opening its doors to Spain & Portugal.....we poor Saffas can go to hell in a handbasket! Thanks to our prez....


What is a Saffa and who is our prez?

Northern Virginia, USA, and SMA, MEXICO


----------



## Guest

...and here I mistakenly thought the flag of our country is so well known after the WSC in 2011 - or perhaps you know our infamous 'vuvuzela' (loud trumpet) better? Oh for an ObaMA, here we have to settle for a ZuMA till the 2nd coming (his words, not mine) ..... PS Mexico opened the games against us back in 2011...


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## cuylers5746

*Old Immigration Law*

Hola Whiteman;

No, Mexico for much of it's history has had the doors wide open to Spanish Immigrants. I know of a friends wife who was from Spain. She applied for Mexican Citizenship and at INM they told her it's was relatively quick and simple as they give preference to Spanish Citizens and it's like a shoe in. I guess because it's like a closer relationship like Britain to USA. We got over it, and I guess Mexico got over it too.


----------



## 1happykamper

*Yessss!!!!!*

So I popped in to my local Mexican Consulate office here in Tucson and this past Monday was told, in a nutshell: "NO" I can not get any resident visa..goodbye. Ouch. 

The two people at the consulate office informed me on that first day that i needed an income of $2,800 and my $1,600 social security just was not enough. I enquired as to where they pulled that number from and they assured me that that income was for one person and that was that. Goodbye.

I was stunned. So the next day -i went back there...to another part of the consulates building and appealed my case to a man who like many (an assumption) was not fully apprised of the new laws and its implementation. Apparently another man had been listening to my discussion and intention to live in Mexico and came out to say hi. He was the consul!

He told me to come back the next day (yesterday-Wednesday) and he would ensure my safe passage -my words.

Passport photo in hand, $37 and a criminal background check wait of about 3 hours at the consulate and voila! I have a 4 year temporary visa pasted nicely inside my US passport. Next step is to go to the Mexican entry port near where I live -Nogales and apply for my Resident card - not sure of the official name..that will kick off the process and the card will be ready for me to pick up in "10-14 days".

So what exactly happened? My guess is that like many things in life a certain amount of discretion is allowed by those in charge. Presenting myself in a well dressed manner, not confrontational, armed with paperwork and an attitude of "I really want to live in your beautiful country" I think helped a lot.

So there. It worked for me. Good luck to all!


----------



## makaloco

Congratulations! I agree, "not confrontational" goes a long way. As I understand it from what others have reported, you'll need to get your residence card at the INM office closest to where you live in Mexico, and they may also ask for your paperwork again, so be sure to take copies of everything with you.


----------



## conklinwh

Not sure information clear yet but I'm trying to get some answers while we are in the US visiting friends & family for the holiday.

Specifically, my wife & I have no immigrante rentista visas that are due for their annual renewal mid-January. We will be traveling back after consulates close in December and before they open early January.
Questions have to do with whether under the new immigration laws that we need do anything in the US before returning as don't want to return and then have to leave to complete something at a consulate in the US.
Any help appreciated.


----------



## makaloco

Probably not if you were planning on a simple renewal and just want a Residente Temporal card. It may vary from office to office, but a friend up for renewal of her Inmigrante rentista card just submitted her application a couple of days ago and wasn't asked for anything unusual. If you want to apply for Residente Permanente under the new system, there are likely to be additional requirements.


----------



## Isla Verde

1happykamper said:


> The two people at the consulate office informed me on that first day that i needed an income of $2,800 and my $1,600 social security just was not enough. I enquired as to where they pulled that number from and they assured me that that income was for one person and that was that. Goodbye. ...
> 
> Passport photo in hand, $37 and a criminal background check wait of about 3 hours at the consulate and voila! I have a 4 year temporary visa pasted nicely inside my US passport. Next step is to go to the Mexican entry port near where I live -Nogales and apply for my Resident card - not sure of the official name..that will kick off the process and the card will be ready for me to pick up in "10-14 days".
> 
> So what exactly happened? My guess is that like many things in life a certain amount of discretion is allowed by those in charge. Presenting myself in a well dressed manner, not confrontational, armed with paperwork and an attitude of "I really want to live in your beautiful country" I think helped a lot.
> 
> So there. It worked for me. Good luck to all!


This is a great story! But, since the minimum monthly income for a residente temporal visa is now $1900, I wonder what will happen when 1happykamper goes to an INM office in Mexico to take the next step. Will they accept the judgment of the Consul in Tuscon and process her visa even though her SS income falls a bit short? I certainly hope so.


----------



## cuylers5746

*Three Stooges*

Hi Tundra Green;

Maybe you'll get a kick out of this? Before I got married I lived in North Hollywood for a while with my roommate Larry Zika, we had a neighbor across the street by the name of Moe. Yea, of the 3 Stooges. Only saw him when he was taking out the trash to the curb, but it was him. Larry said he would converse with him some remembering him when Larry was a kid, but mainly by then in the mid 1970's Moe was pretty much a recluse.

About 1/4 mile down the same street Bob Hope lived in Toluca Lake. Larry had fond memories of Trick-or-Treating there on Halloween nights when a kid. Bob himself loved giving out the goodies to the kids. He's offer the kids a Silver Dollar or a Apple. Their choice. Today that's like offering a kid $5.00.

Well one day the neighbors asked Larry, if their son Christian could go along with while their kids were make a Commercial. Beeing good friends, he told them O.K. Well the Director sent a note home with Christian asking him and his Dad to come to a Screen Test, as he thought he might be good on Camera. Well, the rest is history.

Christian was picked up to do Commercials, 1-2 years latter he was going quite a bit on "CHPs", TV show with Erik Estrada and eventually had a big role in the Movie 1941 with John Beluchi, Dan Akroyd and others. He was the blond little kid and had a number of lines in the movie. A few years later, while taking a cross country trip to the East Coast on business, Larry asked if he could come with us and drop him off in New Mexico. "He had to buy a house for Christian who was then about 10 and needed a Tax Shelter". 

Larry's Dad was a real good friend of W.C. Fields. Larry remember when a small kid this big puddgy guy would appear on their door step some late Sunday mornings banging on their door rousting his dad. Fields would say "....Zike, I need you to take me around in your car again looking for my car..". He got so toasted the night before W.C. couldn't remember where his car was. This happened a number of times, according to Larry. 

I've got other stories about Hollywood, but since you mentioned the 3 Stooges, I thought you might like to have heard this personal story? Growing up in Southern California and working, living in that area you just take it for granted, but years later when you're so far removed from it it does seem unique. I'm glad I had all those experiences and more.


----------



## TundraGreen

cuylers5746 said:


> Hi Tundra Green;
> 
> Maybe you'll get a kick out of this? Before I got married I lived in North Hollywood for a while with my roommate Larry Zika, we had a neighbor across the street by the name of Moe. Yea, of the 3 Stooges. Only saw him when he was taking out the trash to the curb, but it was him. Larry said he would converse with him some remembering him when Larry was a kid, but mainly by then in the mid 1970's Moe was pretty much a recluse.
> 
> About 1/4 mile down the same street Bob Hope lived in Toluca Lake. Larry had fond memories of Trick-or-Treating there on Halloween nights when a kid. Bob himself loved giving out the goodies to the kids. He's offer the kids a Silver Dollar or a Apple. Their choice. Today that's like offering a kid $5.00.
> 
> Well one day the neighbors asked Larry, if their son Christian could go along with while their kids were make a Commercial. Beeing good friends, he told them O.K. Well the Director sent a note home with Christian asking him and his Dad to come to a Screen Test, as he thought he might be good on Camera. Well, the rest is history.
> 
> Christian was picked up to do Commercials, 1-2 years latter he was going quite a bit on "CHPs", TV show with Erik Estrada and eventually had a big role in the Movie 1941 with John Beluchi, Dan Akroyd and others. He was the blond little kid and had a number of lines in the movie. A few years later, while taking a cross country trip to the East Coast on business, Larry asked if he could come with us and drop him off in New Mexico. "He had to buy a house for Christian who was then about 10 and needed a Tax Shelter".
> 
> Larry's Dad was a real good friend of W.C. Fields. Larry remember when a small kid this big puddgy guy would appear on their door step some late Sunday mornings banging on their door rousting his dad. Fields would say "....Zike, I need you to take me around in your car again looking for my car..". He got so toasted the night before W.C. couldn't remember where his car was. This happened a number of times, according to Larry.
> 
> I've got other stories about Hollywood, but since you mentioned the 3 Stooges, I thought you might like to have heard this personal story? Growing up in Southern California and working, living in that area you just take it for granted, but years later when you're so far removed from it it does seem unique. I'm glad I had all those experiences and more.


Great stories!


----------



## conklinwh

makaloco said:


> Probably not if you were planning on a simple renewal and just want a Residente Temporal card. It may vary from office to office, but a friend up for renewal of her Inmigrante rentista card just submitted her application a couple of days ago and wasn't asked for anything unusual. If you want to apply for Residente Permanente under the new system, there are likely to be additional requirements.


Thanks, that would be simpler. We've also asked a number of people in SMA & Pozos to see how SMA INM is handling but no answers yet.


----------



## makaloco

I thought I read a report from San Miguel on another forum yesterday. If I can find it, I'll PM the link to you, because I don't think ExpatForum allows links to competing sites.


----------



## DNP

I guess I'm still a little confused.

In my case, I'm here on a 180-day "tourist" visa. I'll be leaving Mexico next month, by plane, before my "tourist" visa expires. I wish to apply for a temporary resident visa for when i return at the end of January.

My understanding (please correct) is to do that I will need to apply for that visa at a Mexican Consulate (eg., in Los Angeles) before returning to Mexico, correct?

Once approved (in Mexico City, correct?), how, when and where will I be issued my new temporary resident visa?

When I return to Mexico, will I have my new visa in-hand to present to the Migration authorities at the airport when I arrive? and then I'm finished? or are there other steps involved?

Thanks.

Northern Virginia, USA, and SMA, MEXICO


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## conklinwh

This is what I received from lawyer in SMA.


"In regard to your question below, I would like to inform you are still able to renew your Migratory Form at INM in San Miguel, so please do not worry about that. 

Since you already have a No Inmigrante Visa you DO NOT need to do anything at Mexican Consulate.

From November 9, due to the new Immigration Law if some person is planning to come to Mexico and spend more than 180 days then those person need to start or get their Migratory Form at Mexican Consulate, but obviously it does not apply for you."

Seems like key is initial visa versus renewal. I'm not sure applies to decision as to whether I "stay" with temporal or take opportunity to apply for permanent but will ask.


----------



## DNP

Thanks so much...again.

Northern Virginia, USA, and SMA, MEXICO


----------



## evafla

Hello All;
I see topic about immigration law is calming down a lot .
Not any of new experiences ?
Would like to hear from someone who has ;

1, no-immigrante
2. number 3 on the back
3. tried to renew now 
4. asked for change to permanent

my question is , does the person in this situation, HAVE TO , 
obtain one more time temporal , or if has income proof CAN change to permanent ,
at the and of 4 years with visa in Mexico .

thank you e


----------



## conklinwh

evafla said:


> Hello All;
> I see topic about immigration law is calming down a lot .
> Not any of new experiences ?
> Would like to hear from someone who has ;
> 
> 1, no-immigrante
> 2. number 3 on the back
> 3. tried to renew now
> 4. asked for change to permanent
> 
> my question is , does the person in this situation, HAVE TO ,
> obtain one more time temporal , or if has income proof CAN change to permanent ,
> at the and of 4 years with visa in Mexico .
> 
> thank you e


For a number of reasons, we needed to restart our no inmagrante visa last year so this will be 1st renewal. I had asked lawyer about temporal vs permanente. Response was temporal through 3rd renewal and permanente with 4th. 
What I didn't ask was if possible and what necessary to go from no inmigrante to permanente if less than 4th renewal.


----------



## evafla

Dear conklinwh , thank you so much for taking time to answer to me .

Believe me I just want to bite the screen or keyboard , whatever .

I am doing research all over the net , and I can not find the answer .

My question , might look simple , but it is not .

I need to be sooo boring one more time, because I am hopping, if I try 
my best to be clear , someone with the same situation will answer .

We have no-inmigrante with no 3 on the back , BUT BEFORE we got the first one 
with the number 1, we had for one year old FM3 , no-inmigrante did not exist
in 2009 , old booklet Fm3 only .

Am I going to be "rape" for permanente next year or not ?

I want to pass apologies to everybody , who needs to glance at my posts ,
I know I am repeating myself .

Out of these information which are on the net , I am thinking that rather not,
( I have to renew no-inmigrante one more time)
however, and here fun starts;

A few reported , with inmigrante with no 4 on the back , was no problem to apply for
and get permanente , even if financial were not quite met .

( over here comes my subquestion,
in the year 2009 , did already cards inmigrante exist, or who has no 4,
started from no 2 , and old Fm2 was counted ?)

If right now , from any of two existing visas , can be switched to permanente,
is the time frame different , for inmigrante than for combination of Fm3 and non -inmigrante ?

I wrote one more time what above, only and exclusively , because of hope,
it will be someone in identical situation , and will be so good to answer if knows .


regards e


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## RVGRINGO

Once you figure it out, they'll change the rules, or interpretations, again. It has happened to us multiple times in over ten years. Frustrating!!!!!


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## conorkilleen

I have been told by my immigration attorney that My Daughter and I can apply while still in Mexico. I have the old FM3 No inmigrante and only a Prorroga 1 on the back of my card. He said that laws are challenging, but I can do it without having to go back to the US and apply.

My suggestion would be to start consulting with immigration attorneys. You dont have to have them do the process for you, however just consult.


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## Isla Verde

conorkilleen said:


> I have been told by my immigration attorney that My Daughter and I can apply while still in Mexico. I have the old FM3 No inmigrante and only a Prorroga 1 on the back of my card. He said that laws are challenging, but I can do it without having to go back to the US and apply.


No real news here. There is nothing in the new laws that suggests that those of us who are already here and hold an FM3/No Inmigrante have to return to the States to apply for residente temporal status.


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## RVGRINGO

It is also much too early to 'consult', as the attorneys don't have all the answers yet. The point system still hasn't bee published and some of the new 'requisitos' seem to be rather uncertain at the moment. The present SNAFU may have to await the new government. We hope they act quickly, as wee see signs that people are deciding they've had enough unceertainty, and they are filling the 'bazaars' and 'subastas' in preparation for departure. We hope it doesn't come to that, but old folks can't handle uncertainty, or the need to 'wait just a few more years'.


----------



## 1happykamper

Isla Verde said:


> This is a great story! But, since the minimum monthly income for a residente temporal visa is now $1900, I wonder what will happen when 1happykamper goes to an INM office in Mexico to take the next step. Will they accept the judgment of the Consul in Tuscon and process her visa even though her SS income falls a bit short? I certainly hope so.



Stay tuned 

I arrive in Mazatlan on the 27th and kick off that part of the process. 

John


----------



## cscscs007

You don't have to return to the US to renew and go through the process. In the Guadalajara Reporter there is an article from the INM chief in Chapala who clarifies a lot of questions.


----------



## makaloco

cscscs007 said:


> You don't have to return to the US to renew and go through the process. In the Guadalajara Reporter there is an article from the INM chief in Chapala who clarifies a lot of questions.


Good article, thanks! Here's a link:
Immigration chief opens up on confusing new rules | Guadalajara Reporter


----------



## Isla Verde

makaloco said:


> Good article, thanks! Here's a link:
> Immigration chief opens up on confusing new rules | Guadalajara Reporter


Thanks for posting this link. The article was quite informative, but this made me chuckle: “I want to underscore that every foreigner should read the law and its regulations. It’s an obligation to have knowledge of the content—not interpret it, but be familiar with what it says.” What happens when our knowledge of the content of the laws comes into conflict with what we are told at our local INM office?


----------



## makaloco

Isla Verde said:


> Thanks for posting this link. The article was quite informative, but this made me chuckle: “I want to underscore that every foreigner should read the law and its regulations. It’s an obligation to have knowledge of the content—not interpret it, but be familiar with what it says.” What happens when our knowledge of the content of the laws comes into conflict with what we are told at our local INM office?


Maybe we're supposed endear ourselves to INM agents by shoving it at them and asking, "Where does it say that?" What made me chuckle was the thought of expats who already struggle with the application form trying to decipher a gazillion pages of Spanish legalese.


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## Isla Verde

makaloco said:


> Maybe we're supposed endear ourselves to INM agents by shoving it at them and asking, "Where does it say that?" What made me chuckle was the thought of expats who already struggle with the application form trying to decipher a gazillion pages of Spanish legalese.


Agreed. I wonder how many Mexicans could make heads or tails out of the regulations.


----------



## Jolga

*INM Mazatlan Answers 7 Questions*

I succeeded in reaching Oscar Tirado at INM Mazatlan by phone. I had been previously told by another employee that he was my best bet, as he could get by in English and French. As it turned out we were unable to converse fast enough for that office's busy pace. The language barrier was too high, so we decided to communicate by email. I sent him an email which he promptly passed along to his colleague Adriana Sanchez Zamudio. Here are my 7 questions: 

_ Our Objective: We are applying for the Tarjeta de Residencia Permanente

1.	Do you require a criminal record check?

2.	Does this card require that we re-register at any time in the future?

3.	Can we apply later and become dual citizens of Mexico and Canada?

4.	Do we have to show our bank statements to you again?

5.	Do you require a permanent address right away with proof of 
residence such as an electrical bill?

6.	Do we need a medical exam?

7. We heard that the Permanent Residency Cards would now be printed and 
laminated in Mexico city and that now it would take more time to receive 
them. Is this correct?_

Now Adriana's original answers in Spanish:

1.- No se necesita carta de No antecedentes penales.

2.- No. Esta tarjeta ya no requiere renovaciones.

3.- No. El trámite de ciudadanía se realiza ante la Secretaría de Relaciones 
Exteriores en Culiacán, Sinaloa.

4.- Si. El monto que debe tener en el banco es de 30000 pesos en promedio 
mensualmente.

5. -No. 

6.- No se requiere certificado médico.

7.- Todas las tarjetas de residentes se imprimirán en la Ciudad de México y durarán 
hasta veinte días en llegar a la Delegación Federal en Sinaloa. Efectivamente 
tardarán más tiempo en tenerla con usted.

And translated using Google:

1. - No need letter of no criminal record.

2. - No. This card requires no renewals.

3.- No. The citizenship process is done at the Foreign Ministry in Culiacan, Sinaloa.

4. - Yes. The amount you have in the bank is 30000 pesos monthly average.

5. -No.

6. - No medical certificate is required.

7. - All resident cards are printed in Mexico City and this could take up to twenty 
days to reach the Federal Delegation in Sinaloa. You are right it will take longer 
to get it.

Both employees were courteous, professional and gave good service.

The process looks quite straightforward and they appear to be trusting the Consulate's (in our case it will be Calgary) judgement.

The only repeat proof they need is the 30,000 Pesos/month for 6 months. 

There is, however, a discrepancy of $100/month between the embassy and INM Mazatlan. The embassy is presently asking more than Mexico proper. I have informed Calgary of this so we'll see how it shakes out. It has no effect on our situation, but could bar some people who could just squeak by if not for this. 

My wife and I think that perhaps they adjust the financial requirements for the different locations, due to the fact that the cost of living in each area is quite variable. But that's just a stab in the dark that we have made, so please don't give it too much weight.


----------



## Longford

The report in the Guadalajara Reporter shouldn't be relied upon as 'gospel'.


----------



## fuready

This is my sixth year in Mexico:

My fourth visa renewal (Rentista) had Prórraga 4 on the back.

My fifth had nothing.

I have just been notified that my sixth renewal is ready to be picked up on Monday which apparently was still under the old rules because I applied for it on October 16th.

My questions are these: 1) What happens to me next year?
2) Is crossing the border every six months a viable option?

BTW, this year they didn't even ask for financial statements. I'm wondering why.

Any clarification on this would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## 1happykamper

*Thinking....*

As I have mentioned here before, I received my 4 year temporary visa attached to my USA passport last week. 

I was told to present myself at the Mazatlan airport immigration people when I arrive there next Tuesday..there they will start the process of getting the " resident card" to me. I am only going to be in the Mazatlan area for 2 weeks and fly out of there.

I am now rethinking the consulate office advice and present myself at the Nogales Immigration office which is just a 90 minute drive from my home here in Tucson. 

My thinking is changing because.... It seems that the card I need may take longer than two weeks...and so I would be unable to pick that up on my way put of Mazatlan. It turns out the instructions I was given here in Tucson were wrong...there is no "immigration dept." right at the airport...it's a separate office in town! 

Has anyone, in the past week or so, received their FIRST resident card and if so what was required at that time ??

Thanks in advance for any info offered.


----------



## TundraGreen

1happykamper said:


> As I have mentioned here before, I received my 4 year temporary visa attached to my USA passport last week.
> 
> I was told to present myself at the Mazatlan airport immigration people when I arrive there next Tuesday..there they will start the process of getting the " resident card" to me. I am only going to be in the Mazatlan area for 2 weeks and fly out of there.
> 
> I am now rethinking the consulate office advice and present myself at the Nogales Immigration office which is just a 90 minute drive from my home here in Tucson.
> 
> My thinking is changing because.... It seems that the card I need may take longer than two weeks...and so I would be unable to pick that up on my way put of Mazatlan. It turns out the instructions I was given here in Tucson were wrong...there is no "immigration dept." right at the airport...it's a separate office in town!
> 
> Has anyone, in the past week or so, received their FIRST resident card and if so what was required at that time ??
> 
> Thanks in advance for any info offered.


Two weeks sounds short to me. It used to take a month. Then they changed the procedures a couple years ago and my last two renewals have taken about 10 days. But that still makes it iffy to get done in two weeks. And with the latest changes, who knows what the time schedule will be. Finally, I suspect that getting half way through in one office then having to finish it in some other location is a complication I would not willingly risk.

Did I miss something? Why don't you wait until you are located somewhere for an extended period of time before applying for a visa? You will need proof of address anyway, usually a utility bill. And if you move from the address on your visa you are supposed to update your address with Migración.


----------



## 1happykamper

TundraGreen said:


> Two weeks sounds short to me. It used to take a month. Then they changed the procedures a couple years ago and my last two renewals have taken about 10 days. But that still makes it iffy to get done in two weeks. And with the latest changes, who knows what the time schedule will be. Finally, I suspect that getting half way through in one office then having to finish it in some other location is a complication I would not willingly risk.
> 
> Did I miss something? Why don't you wait until you are located somewhere for an extended period of time before applying for a visa? You will need proof of address anyway, usually a utility bill. And if you move from the address on your visa you are supposed to update your address with Migración.



Ooooooooohhhhhh..... So..Tundra is saying that I can wait into a settle in my new home area ...then go to immigration. OK....sounds good...but what about my household goods going with me?? I thought I had to have that card with me??


----------



## TundraGreen

1happykamper said:


> Ooooooooohhhhhh..... So..Tundra is saying that I can wait into a settle in my new home area ...then go to immigration. OK....sounds good...but what about my household goods going with me?? I thought I had to have that card with me??


That is a complication I know nothing about.


----------



## makaloco

1happykamper said:


> Ooooooooohhhhhh..... So..Tundra is saying that I can wait into a settle in my new home area ...then go to immigration. OK....sounds good...but what about my household goods going with me?? I thought I had to have that card with me??


John - Under the new law, as a first time applicant for a resident card, I don't believe you have the option to do the entire process in Mexico. You have to first get the visa at the consulate, as you've already done. If I understand the new system correctly, you now have *a limited amount of time* to come to Mexico and finish the process to get your residence card, correct? 

If you don't, what happens when you try to leave without it, with that visa in your passport? It could be that the application simply gets cancelled, but then you'd have to start all over again with the consulate … and there could be a fine or some such thing. If I were you, I'd either check with the consulate, or plan to complete the process in Mazatlán or Nogales.

The same thing happened to me with my first FM3, having to leave before it was ready and then needing it in order to move. But that was under the old rules. Hilarious story, but probably not relevant for you.


----------



## makaloco

Fuready -
This is a best guess, and only that: It sounds like you finished one FM3/No Inmigrante (five years) and have completed the first year of a second one. Under the old rules, I'd expect your card to come back as Prórroga 1. IF that's what happens, next year you'll get a Residente Temporal card with credit for the two years you'll have completed by then on this latest card. I doubt very much that they'll count the previous five years.

Probably you didn't have to show financial statements because it's a routine renewal. I just renewed my Inmigrante card under the old rules and didn't have to show them, either. 

Sorry, I have no idea about crossing the border every six months.




fuready said:


> This is my sixth year in Mexico:
> 
> My fourth visa renewal (Rentista) had Prórraga 4 on the back.
> 
> My fifth had nothing.
> 
> I have just been notified that my sixth renewal is ready to be picked up on Monday which apparently was still under the old rules because I applied for it on October 16th.
> 
> My questions are these: 1) What happens to me next year?
> 2) Is crossing the border every six months a viable option?
> 
> BTW, this year they didn't even ask for financial statements. I'm wondering why.
> 
> Any clarification on this would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## fuready

makaloco said:


> Fuready -
> This is a best guess, and only that: It sounds like you finished one FM3/No Inmigrante (five years) and have completed the first year of a second one. Under the old rules, I'd expect your card to come back as Prórroga 1. IF that's what happens, next year you'll get a Residente Temporal card with credit for the two years you'll have completed by then on this latest card. I doubt very much that they'll count the previous five years.
> 
> Probably you didn't have to show financial statements because it's a routine renewal. I just renewed my Inmigrante card under the old rules and didn't have to show them, either.
> 
> Sorry, I have no idea about crossing the border every six months.


Thanks Makaloco...makes sense to me. I really appreciate the reply.


----------



## Infidel_jack

Well, looks like I will move back to Colombia in August. They have income requirements, but they don't enforce them.
I can only prove $1750 income. I think the Mexican government may be concerned about the US printing presses rolling off monopoly money. This could get adjusted more frequently based on the inclination of the administration to ignore the debt.


----------



## tepetapan

Infidel_jack said:


> Well, looks like I will move back to Colombia in August. They have income requirements, but they don't enforce them.
> I can only prove $1750 income. I think the Mexican government may be concerned about the US printing presses rolling off monopoly money. This could get adjusted more frequently based on the inclination of the administration to ignore the debt.


 Was it just yesterday you wrote you were living in Colombia and moving to Puebla? Now you are living in Puebla and moving back to Colombia? So tell me, who are you and why are you bothering everyone with your nonsense?


----------



## Infidel_jack

tepetapan said:


> Was it just yesterday you wrote you were living in Colombia and moving to Puebla? Now you are living in Puebla and moving back to Colombia? So tell me, who are you and why are you bothering everyone with your nonsense?


The change in the immigration law will not leave me much choice, will it? I still intend to go to IMSA and apply for renewal, but that may not be possible. 
You seem to be upset that I hold opinions at variance with yours.
Would you grant that actions of the Mexican government could be a response to their perception of the coming loss of value in the dollar? Could it be they are trying to stave off having to deal with a bunch of impoverished expats attempting t live on a worthless currency?


----------



## TundraGreen

Moderator's note:
I moved a few recent posts that had wandered off topic to new threads.


----------



## DNP

What are going to try to renew at IMSA?



Infidel_jack said:


> I still intend to go to IMSA and apply for renewal, but that may not be possible.


----------



## Infidel_jack

DNP said:


> What are going to try to renew at IMSA?


My visa temporada. It expires August 3rd, 2013. I used to live in Coatzacoalcos, Veracruz.


----------



## Isla Verde

DNP said:


> What are going to try to renew at IMSA?


What is IMSA?


----------



## Infidel_jack

isla verde said:


> what is imsa?


oops... Inm


----------



## DNP

Isla Verde said:


> What is IMSA?


I don't know. That's why I asked infideljack? the question. Maybe if you ask him you'll have better luck than I did.

Saludos!

Northern Virginia, USA, and SMA, MEXICO


----------



## Infidel_jack

DNP said:


> I don't know. That's why I asked infideljack? the question. Maybe if you ask him you'll have better luck than I did.
> 
> Saludos!
> 
> Northern Virginia, USA, and SMA, MEXICO


Sorry DNP, INM


----------



## Isla Verde

DNP said:


> I don't know. That's why I asked infideljack? the question. Maybe if you ask him you'll have better luck than I did.
> 
> Saludos!
> 
> Northern Virginia, USA, and SMA, MEXICO


And now we know...


----------



## vantexan

Infidel_jack said:


> Well, looks like I will move back to Colombia in August. They have income requirements, but they don't enforce them.
> I can only prove $1750 income. I think the Mexican government may be concerned about the US printing presses rolling off monopoly money. This could get adjusted more frequently based on the inclination of the administration to ignore the debt.


I know it's anathema here, but have you considered living on tourist cards, renewing at the border every 6 months? I'm considering Puebla area also, possibly Atlixco. 

You may be right about the money, but watching the Peso over the last year it appears it's very much in sync with the U.S. stock market. Mexico's economy is very intertwined with the U.S. economy, so bad times in the U.S. appears to mean good times for expats with Dollars.


----------



## Infidel_jack

vantexan said:


> I know it's anathema here, but have you considered living on tourist cards, renewing at the border every 6 months? I'm considering Puebla area also, possibly Atlixco.
> 
> You may be right about the money, but watching the Peso over the last year it appears it's very much in sync with the U.S. stock market. Mexico's economy is very intertwined with the U.S. economy, so bad times in the U.S. appears to mean good times for expats with Dollars.


I have a friend at INM in Coatzacoalcos and I plan to go there to see about my renewal of the visa temporada. I also have a girlfriend and since she is a Mexican national, we could apply for permission to get married. I am not sure how long you have to leave the country after your tourist visa expires. When I entered at Reynosa they only gave me a 30 day visa because I was applying for my temporada. 
As fot the money..dollar vs peso. Yese the past year is has been reasonably stable. I have only been watching for about two years. If you go back 4 years, the Colombian peso has gained about 25% over the dollar and has been fairly stable the last two years. However, the expansion of the US debt has me worried. The printing of fiat money by the treasury is further exacerbating a worldwide nervousness. The only thing saving us now is the parity coused by worldwide losses of value. 
The way things are now, we can only wait and deal with the future when it arrives. If I had a substantial portfolio I would seek refuge in Gold.


----------



## vantexan

Infidel_jack said:


> I have a friend at INM in Coatzacoalcos and I plan to go there to see about my renewal of the visa temporada. I also have a girlfriend and since she is a Mexican national, we could apply for permission to get married. I am not sure how long you have to leave the country after your tourist visa expires. When I entered at Reynosa they only gave me a 30 day visa because I was applying for my temporada.
> As fot the money..dollar vs peso. Yese the past year is has been reasonably stable. I have only been watching for about two years. If you go back 4 years, the Colombian peso has gained about 25% over the dollar and has been fairly stable the last two years. However, the expansion of the US debt has me worried. The printing of fiat money by the treasury is further exacerbating a worldwide nervousness. The only thing saving us now is the parity coused by worldwide losses of value.
> The way things are now, we can only wait and deal with the future when it arrives. If I had a substantial portfolio I would seek refuge in Gold.


But isn't it safe to say that the Colombian Peso found it's true value after the gov't got the country under control and stabilized? But I agree about the quantitive easing. My small pension has no COLA so a bit nervous about inflation. I'm sure the holders of our debt aren't happy about us printing money to pay them back.


----------



## cuylers5746

*US Dollar Crash*

Actually the Mexican Pesos has been range bound between 12:1 and 15:1 since last quarter of 2008, compared to $USD. The pesos has started back down against the $USD this last quarter and should continue that trend. Based upon looking at purely Technicals reading the chart.

Two macro forces here. It's appears countries with a lot of resources; Australia, South Africa, Brazil, Canada their currencies are heading higher against the $USD.

The other force of course in Helicopter Ben and his European counterpart at the ECB trying to print their way out of these huge debt crisis. I think they're on the loosing end even when printing $40 Billion per month when you consider the World is still trying to unwind $600+ Trillion in Derivitives, (Economic Weapons of Mass Destruction) according to Warren Buffet. But every time Ben cranks the printing presses it does seem to have an effect dampening the $USD. 

We'll just have to wait and see? I'd bet the $USD goes to 16:1 maybe 18:1 to the pesos in the next 12-18 months before it starts it's inevitable crash. Right now it's the "flight to safety", buying US Treasuries that's driving the $USD higher and it will keep on going for a while longer. So much of those Derivitives were writting in $USD, so anyone buying them, taking them off anyone's hands has to buy $USDs. Then look out below. And, actually that's the overall intention is to crash the $USD, so we can get on with rebuilding our US Factories and putting our people back to work in a new Industrialized America (like during Henry Ford's time), as our labor rates then will be so much lower compared to most other countries-when currencies are factored in. 

You just can't devaluate your own currency, if it's the World's currency - you have to drive others to want to abandon it, so it will drive it down. Ben's getting an A+ for that don't you think?


----------



## Infidel_jack

cuylers5746 said:


> Actually the Mexican Pesos has been range bound between 12:1 and 15:1 since last quarter of 2008, compared to $USD. The pesos has started back down against the $USD this last quarter and should continue that trend. Based upon looking at purely Technicals reading the chart.
> 
> Two macro forces here. It's appears countries with a lot of resources; Australia, South Africa, Brazil, Canada their currencies are heading higher against the $USD.
> 
> The other force of course in Helicopter Ben and his European counterpart at the ECB trying to print their way out of these huge debt crisis. I think they're on the loosing end even when printing $40 Billion per month when you consider the World is still trying to unwind $600+ Trillion in Derivitives, (Economic Weapons of Mass Destruction) according to Warren Buffet. But every time Ben cranks the printing presses it does seem to have an effect dampening the $USD.
> 
> We'll just have to wait and see? I'd bet the $USD goes to 16:1 maybe 18:1 to the pesos in the next 12-18 months before it starts it's inevitable crash. Right now it's the "flight to safety", buying US Treasuries that's driving the $USD higher and it will keep on going for a while longer. So much of those Derivitives were writting in $USD, so anyone buying them, taking them off anyone's hands has to buy $USDs. Then look out below. And, actually that's the overall intention is to crash the $USD, so we can get on with rebuilding our US Factories and putting our people back to work in a new Industrialized America (like during Henry Ford's time), as our labor rates then will be so much lower compared to most other countries-when currencies are factored in.
> 
> You just can't devaluate your own currency, if it's the World's currency - you have to drive others to want to abandon it, so it will drive it down. Ben's getting an A+ for that don't you think?



Thnaks for making me feel better short term. Unfortunately Ben will not stop printing. However, would you agree that our banker is in worse troble than we are? China is already feeling the pinch caused by the destruction of employment in the US and the reduction of consumer spending and tax revenue. The coming tax increases will predictably drive revenue even lower. I would hate being Dung Heap Shoppinng.


----------



## vantexan

cuylers5746 said:


> Actually the Mexican Pesos has been range bound between 12:1 and 15:1 since last quarter of 2008, compared to $USD. The pesos has started back down against the $USD this last quarter and should continue that trend. Based upon looking at purely Technicals reading the chart.
> 
> Two macro forces here. It's appears countries with a lot of resources; Australia, South Africa, Brazil, Canada their currencies are heading higher against the $USD.
> 
> The other force of course in Helicopter Ben and his European counterpart at the ECB trying to print their way out of these huge debt crisis. I think they're on the loosing end even when printing $40 Billion per month when you consider the World is still trying to unwind $600+ Trillion in Derivitives, (Economic Weapons of Mass Destruction) according to Warren Buffet. But every time Ben cranks the printing presses it does seem to have an effect dampening the $USD.
> 
> We'll just have to wait and see? I'd bet the $USD goes to 16:1 maybe 18:1 to the pesos in the next 12-18 months before it starts it's inevitable crash. Right now it's the "flight to safety", buying US Treasuries that's driving the $USD higher and it will keep on going for a while longer. So much of those Derivitives were writting in $USD, so anyone buying them, taking them off anyone's hands has to buy $USDs. Then look out below. And, actually that's the overall intention is to crash the $USD, so we can get on with rebuilding our US Factories and putting our people back to work in a new Industrialized America (like during Henry Ford's time), as our labor rates then will be so much lower compared to most other countries-when currencies are factored in.
> 
> You just can't devaluate your own currency, if it's the World's currency - you have to drive others to want to abandon it, so it will drive it down. Ben's getting an A+ for that don't you think?


Better give amnesty to all the illegals and bring in millions more if the U.S. rebuilds factories. We'll need people who actually work hard.


----------



## mickisue1

vantexan said:


> Better give amnesty to all the illegals and bring in millions more if the U.S. rebuilds factories. We'll need people who actually work hard.


:focus:

Please.


----------



## Guest

....gratifying to get a mention in the same breath as Brazil (were 'part of' BRICS so we're told but we all know SA to be used as a stepping stone into vast African riches, & a second colonization). In the past year the Rand has been falling against the dollar and is forecasted to hover around R8/dollar for some time to come- 2017. BUT we're having huge issues around mining and spurious talk about nationalisation as the new FAT CAT government have left the masses behind....
Thus our concern around the new immigration laws especially for 'newby retirees'. Our only claim would be familial (Saffa/Mexican grandchild)...


----------



## Isla Verde

gerda whiteman said:


> ç
> Thus our concern around the new immigration laws especially for 'newby retirees'. Our only claim would be familial (Saffa/Mexican grandchild)...


I'm not an expert on the new immigration law, but I don't believe having a half-Mexican grandchild will ease your proposed move to Mexico.


----------



## FHBOY

*This just in...*

*It is 5:15 EST and I just got off the phone with the Mexican Consulate in DC, where I visited this morning. [BTW-they were really not too helpful - the "person who knows" was out sick - but I digress]

She began her call with, "I have some good news and some bad news". The good news is the person who knows will be back at the Consulate tomorrow. 

The bad news is I was just told that there is to be a special meeting tonight at which the new changes are once again going to be discussed and if I understood her correctly, some of the new changes may be changed yet again.

She asked me to wait until tomorrow morning when "the person who knows" will call me.

This report is a FACT - not an opinion - it came straight from the DC Consulate.*


----------



## Infidel_jack

FHBOY said:


> *It is 5:15 EST and I just got off the phone with the Mexican Consulate in DC, where I visited this morning. [BTW-they were really not too helpful - the "person who knows" was out sick - but I digress]
> 
> She began her call with, "I have some good news and some bad news". The good news is the person who knows will be back at the Consulate tomorrow.
> 
> The bad news is I was just told that there is to be a special meeting tonight at which the new changes are once again going to be discussed and if I understood her correctly, some of the new changes may be changed yet again.
> 
> She asked me to wait until tomorrow morning when "the person who knows" will call me.
> 
> This report is a FACT - not an opinion - it came straight from the DC Consulate.*


Thanks for the note. The real good news could be they are reconsidering their decision and looking at it as cutting off one's nose to spite the face.
Who knows?
FHBOY.. Does this not give you pause when it comes to getting "help"from government? Just Curious.
I had a similar experience that cost me a second trip into DC which I hate.
However, the lady that ended up helping me was great. Parking is less than satisfactory for consulate visitors.


----------



## evafla

Maybe someone is going to find some info of value over here .


VidaMaz - One Family's tale of life in Mazatlan


----------



## cuylers5746

I went into INM this last week. It was nearly deserted, just one gal that looked like maybe she was a lawyer discussing a case with the clerks. Hmm, maybe all us expat locals know it's almost worthless trying to get answers right now when those facilitating the new laws know nothing either and those making the rules are running around in circles trying to see what sticks on the wall?

The nice gal we always interface with knew I'm not up until the end of January and said come back in another month and we should know a lot more. Changes upon changes being made and nothing sticking right now. She also said that once I put in my papers it might take 20-30 days to get back my final Visa. I understood the new law to say 10 days?

So, anyone having to re-up their Visa this month, might not get any definite answer for maybe another month?She also said, that if you don't meet all the criteria you can ".....give a petition with your Visa application...". I guess you state why you think you should be given special consideration?

Hey, but has anyone ever been asked for their Visa when running around your town that you live in? Maybe between cities at some kind of Military or PJG road block. Heck, I've been stopped a couple of times by local cops for some "perceived" traffic violation, and I show them either a California or Florida Driver's License for I.D. papers, and when they ask for Car Registration, I just point to the Aduana Decal on the window. Works every time for me. Maybe next time, I try and give my INAPAM, "tercer edad" card and see if that suffices? You gotta love this country?


----------



## Isla Verde

cuylers5746 said:


> Hey, but has anyone ever been asked for their Visa when running around your town that you live in? Maybe between cities at some kind of Military or PJG road block. Heck, I've been stopped a couple of times by local cops for some "perceived" traffic violation, and I show them either a California or Florida Driver's License for I.D. papers, and when they ask for Car Registration, I just point to the Aduana Decal on the window. Works every time for me. Maybe next time, I try and give my INAPAM, "tercer edad" card and see if that suffices? You gotta love this country?


I never carry my visa with me, but then since I don't drive, I don´t have to worry about being stopped by the cops. I use my INAPAM card when I need to show ID to get into a building or to get a discount.


----------



## Longford

At this point it's just a guessing game, but at the point in time the last two Presidential administrations changed Mexico I believe there were substantial delays in the processing of documents for at least the first month or two of the administration. If, as we've been told in various INM offices throughout the country, that decisions are being made in the D.F., or even if the decisions remain at the state level, it's an almost certainty that the PRI will replace PAN office managers with their own loyalists and it could take a little time for the new folks to get up to speed. Guessing games. That's what all of these are at this point.


----------



## makaloco

cuylers5746 said:


> Hey, but has anyone ever been asked for their Visa when running around your town that you live in?


When the FM2 was a booklet, I never carried it unless I knew I'd need it (e.g., renewing car registration). Now that I have the Inmigrante card, it's always in my wallet, so I use it as ID more often, usually in addition to my BCS driver's license. Police have never asked for it during traffic stops, or even when I reported an attempted break-in. The bank and retailers are happy with my driver's license. I did need my Inmigrante card to renew the driver's license, and to get a will made at a notaría.


----------



## cuylers5746

*New Immigration Law Changes*



Longford said:


> At this point it's just a guessing game, but at the point in time the last two Presidential administrations changed Mexico I believe there were substantial delays in the processing of documents for at least the first month or two of the administration. If, as we've been told in various INM offices throughout the country, that decisions are being made in the D.F., or even if the decisions remain at the state level, it's an almost certainty that the PRI will replace PAN office managers with their own loyalists and it could take a little time for the new folks to get up to speed. Guessing games. That's what all of these are at this point.


Hi Longford;

You make some excellent points. We deal yearly with the INM Office personnel and they stay there administration after administration, so we think of them like a bed rock organization that we can count on. But yea your right. Why might they not stack the offices with their loyal PRI supporters in the top positions? Of course they will, and that will make for their own slant on how they want they new Law to finalized out, and locally how they will administer it. Excellent point.


----------



## Longford

cuylers5746 said:


> Hi Longford;
> 
> You make some excellent points. We deal yearly with the INM Office personnel and they stay there administration after administration, so we think of them like a bed rock organization that we can count on. But yea your right. Why might they not stack the offices with their loyal PRI supporters in the top positions? Of course they will, and that will make for their own slant on how they want they new Law to finalized out, and locally how they will administer it. Excellent point.


Regarding processing of documents during the month of December, we also need to remember that many of the INM offices either shut-down or are substantially under-staffed for the period of Deember 12 to January 6. This year, with the new administration taking office, in a couple of days, the slow down could be a bit more noticable. So people with paperwork "in process" or about to file applications and requests, all of this could work more slowly until mid-January and reports from people renewing/obtaining documents might be delayed because they're not getting their papers as quickly. It wouldn't hurt to let things calm down, probably. Let the emotions subside over the holiday period. Okay, now ... everybody off to the beach!


----------



## cuylers5746

*New Immigration Law Changes*



Longford said:


> Regarding processing of documents during the month of December, we also need to remember that many of the INM offices either shut-down or are substantially under-staffed for the period of Deember 12 to January 6. This year, with the new administration taking office, in a couple of days, the slow down could be a bit more noticable. So people with paperwork "in process" or about to file applications and requests, all of this could work more slowly until mid-January and reports from people renewing/obtaining documents might be delayed because they're not getting their papers as quickly. It wouldn't hurt to let things calm down, probably. Let the emotions subside over the holiday period. Okay, now ... everybody off to the beach!



Yea, especially the part..."Okay, now ... everybody off to the beach!"


----------



## Infidel_jack

Isla Verde said:


> I never carry my visa with me, but then since I don't drive, I don´t have to worry about being stopped by the cops. I use my INAPAM card when I need to show ID to get into a building or to get a discount.


Como puede tener la tarjeta INAPAM? Autobuses son medio precio con esto.


----------



## DNP

Infidel_jack said:


> Como puede tener la tarjeta INAPAM? Autobuses son medio precio con esto.


I'm guessing, but I think that to get an INAPAM, you need to have shown paper(s) that show your legal status and that you also meet the age requirement for such a card. Not the best form of ID, but for minor stuff, it probably suffices.

It's not for everyone. As a tourist, for example, you're not eligible. (Your legal status doesn't qualify you.)

It's a discount card for Seniors, not a visa.

WashDC/SMA


----------



## AlanMexicali

*INM officials Q & A.*

QUESTIONS FOR IMMIGATION FORUM
IS IT TRUE THAT:

1. All current FM2 and FM3 permit holders get full credit for time they have completed on their current 
permit?
………………………………………………………………………..
SI

2. If you want a Residente Permanente card, FM2 and FM3 years count towards the 4 years of 
Residente Temporal requirement?
SI

3. FM2 and FM3 holders must submit a cover letter describing that they want a “renovacion” of their 
current permit, changing to either Residente Temporal or Residente Permanente.

SI

4. Both the Residente Temporal and Residente Permanente have options for 1 thru 4 years

No. Only the Temporary Resident has this option. The Permanent Resident has no time limit.

5. FM2 holders with Famiy or spouse status are eligible to apply for Residente Permanente after 
completing 2 years on their FM2.

SI

6. The income requirements for proving fiscal independence are cut in half (1/2) for both home-owning 
Residente Permanente and Residente Temporal applicants who already have valid Inmigrante Rentista or No Inmigrante
NO

7. NEW applicants for Residente Permanente or Temporal (who have no current FM2 or FM3) will be required to show proof of sufficient income.

SI

8. For Residente Temporal applications for retirees and pensioners - NEW applications can only be made at a Mexican consulate in your home country

Si

9. NEW applicants for a Residente Temporal will have to provide the following:
Original and copy of proof of investments or bank accounts for the previous 12 months – with an ANNUAL Monthly balance equivalent to approx.. $96,000 USD (depending on exchange rate)

SI
AND / OR

Original and copies of documents showing that has employment or pension
- With non – encumbered monthly income for the last six months of:
- equivalent to approx.
$1950 USD pcm (subject to Exchange rate)

SI

10. Residente Permanente applications can be made at an INM office in México.

Yes if you have an FM3 or FM2 for 4 Years

11. Residente Permanente applicants who qualify for the previous question No. 10 MUST SUBMIT 
documents proving one of the following:
AND / OR
Original and copy of proof of investments or bank accounts with average Monthly equivalent to approx. $120,000 USD (depending on exchange rate)
NO
AND / OR
Original and copies of documents showing that monthly income has for the previous six months been 
equivalent to approx. $2500 USD pcm (depending on current exchange rate)
NO

Questions from the International Community
1. What is the Actual Real Difference between Residente Temporal and Residente Permanente?
Residente temporal is for a maximum period of 4 years and pay each year for up to four years. The permanent residency allows you to live in Mexico indefinitely with a one time fee

2. Is it true that permit holders with 4 prorrogas on their existing permit must allow it to expire and reapply?

No. Those people who have completed 4 annual extensions have to leave Mexico or change to a 
permanent resident.

3. How long of a process is this?

20 Days

4. Is there any way to start the process early rather than waiting for it to expire?

NO.

5. Is travel outside of Mexico allowed while this process is taking place?

SI,

6. What are the costs for a permit to leave on this basis

$320.00 PESOS

7. Will the minimum monthly income requirement be less if you own a home in Mexico as it was in the 
past?

NO.

8. What are the advantages and also disadvantages of someone who is a Residente Temporal formally FM 3 or FM 2) obtaining Residente Permanente?

The Permanent resident does not have to renew whereas the residente temporal can only stay for a 
maximum of 4 years without becoming a permanent resident

9. Beyond a copy of a marriage license for married couples, what sort of documentation is needed to 
verify a familiar bond (or equivalent) with another Temporary or Permanent Resident?

Only with a marriage certificate verified with the relevant Mexican authority AND – For parents a birth
Mexican authority

10. Are the rules any different for someone that is married to a Mexican National?

NO.

11. If one applies for an Inmigrante Permanente – what is the maximum time one is allowed to remain in that status before being required to change to Inmigrado status?

The Permanent Resident is equivalent to inmigrado status.

12. Are the minimum monthly income requirements the same for all of Mexico or does it vary by region as it did in the past?

It’s the same in all of Mexico

13. Are the new rules the same for Foreign Business Owners?

SI

14. Will an Inmigrado be able to own real estate without the need of a fideicomiso?

No you still require a fidei comiso

15. If I have been living in Mexico for more than 4 years on a Temporary Resident Visa – must I convert it to a Permanent Resident Visa? or can I continue indefinitely as a Temporary Resident should I wish to do so?

YOU MUST CHANGE TO A RESIDENTE PERMANENTE

16. If I pay for a 4 year Temporary Visa with a working visa and cease to work during that period – how does that change my status?

If you are no longer working you have to inform immigration and you will not automatically qualify for a 
residente permanente

17. If that WERE TO HAPPEN – Do I need to go through the entire process of application again?

Yes at your home country’s Mexican Embassy.

18. Will the money I have paid be applied to the change in status?

NO

19. If one is already inmigrado and a permanent resident do you have to obtain another card?

No only if you are under 18 years old

20. Would an individual with a documented retirement income of $1500 USD Canadian, who owns a notarized home valued at $100,000 US/Canadian, has a college degree, and owns a US-plated new automobile be allowed to obtain “permanent” status?

YES – Once you have completed 4 years you can then apply for permanent residency

21. Are people that are working here going to have restrictions on time spent out of Mexico if they want to apply for permanent residency?

NO.

22. What happens to people that cannot meet the minimum income requirements?

You will have to leave Mexico but you can come back once you have successfully re applied and met the new requirements

23 . What type of visa is available to a person who wants to move to Mazatlan and open a business? And, what are the requirements to obtain this type of visa?

You have to consult with the Mexican consulate in your own country and it will depend on the application

24. What is the process in changing our lucrativa FM3 from one company to another?

You have to notify us of your change of business location

25. If I only have a tourist visa will I be able to leave the country at 180 days and return the following day with a new 180 day tourist visa?

SI

26. Am I still able to rent a private home to live in even if I only have a 180 day tourist visa?

SI

27. I help out in a not for profit organization – do I need a specific visa to do that?

ONLY if you are applying originally from outside of mexico NOT if you are already in mexico with a residente temporal or residente permanente

28. Would any income generated by a foreigner here who has a business be considered a valid part of their income?

SI

29. With the current FM2 there are travel restrictions. I am now told that you can’t be out of the country for more than 15 months in 5 years – is that true?

WHEN YOU CONFORM WITH THE CORRECT IMMIGRATION FORMS – THERE ARE NO TRAVEL 
RESTRICTIONS

30. Are the income requirements based upon combined incomes when dealing with a husband & wife?

NO they are on an individual basis.

31. Do any of the changes affect someone currently working in Mexico?

NO

32. My husband and I stay in Mazatlan less than 180 days a year and currently each have a FM3. We own a condo. What visa is best for us?

180 day tourist visa

33. We drove our Motorhome from Canada, a distance over 5000 kms, to our home in Mexico.
Our plan was to apply for either the FM2 or FM3 after we arrived. Can Immigration forgive those that 
arrived here during this change and give them a short period of time to get their FM2/FM3?

NO.


----------



## Isla Verde

Infidel_jack said:


> Como puede tener la tarjeta INAPAM? Autobuses son medio precio con esto.


It's been a few years since I got mine, so the details are a bit hazy. I recall that I went to an office somewhere in the Centro Histórico of Mexico City to apply. It took a couple of hours and I got my card the same day I applied. In addition to discounts on intra-city buses, you get discounts at some drugstores and movie theaters.


----------



## Longford

Isla Verde said:


> It's been a few years since I got mine, so the details are a bit hazy. I recall that I went to an office somewhere in the Centro Histórico of Mexico City to apply. It took a couple of hours and I got my card the same day I applied. In addition to discounts on intra-city buses, you get discounts at some drugstores and movie theaters.


I believe the following are still the requirements in order to be eligible/receive the card ... and the requirements may vary by office and section of the country:

Here's what you should bring to the office with you: 

•Your passport plus two photocopies of the photo page
•Your valid FM-2 or FM-3 plus two photocopies of the photo page (before the visa category names changed)
•A photo ID such as your passport or driver's license
•Proof of current residence in Mexico: i.e. a utility bill in your name, deed to your home, or rental lease (two photocopies)
•Three photos in "infantil" size
•Contact information for someone to be contacted in case of emergency
•Two photocopies of your birth certificate


----------



## Isla Verde

Longford said:


> I believe the following are still the requirements in order to be eligible/receive the card ... and the requirements may vary by office and section of the country:
> 
> Here's what you should bring to the office with you:
> 
> •Your passport plus two photocopies of the photo page
> •Your valid FM-2 or FM-3 plus two photocopies of the photo page (before the visa category names changed)
> •A photo ID such as your passport or driver's license
> •Proof of current residence in Mexico: i.e. a utility bill in your name, deed to your home, or rental lease (two photocopies)
> •Three photos in "infantil" size
> •Contact information for someone to be contacted in case of emergency
> •Two photocopies of your birth certificate


Longford, looking over your list, I didn't recall needing photocopies of my birth certificate, and I was right! Here is the information (in Spanish) straight from the horse's mouth:


*Requisitos para obtener la Tarjeta INAPAM*

Tener 60 años cumplidos o más a la fecha de la emisión de la Tarjeta Inapam.
Para poder comprobar la edad, es necesario presentar en original y copia cualquiera de los siguientes documentos:

* Credencial oficial con fotografía.
* Credencial del ISSSTE.
* Pasaporte.
* Cartilla del Servicio Militar.
* Licencia de manejo.
* Cédula profesional.
* Credencial o carnet del IMSS con fotografía (que aparezca la fecha de nacimiento).
* Dos fotografías tamaño infantil en blanco y ***** o a color

En caso de no contar con alguno de los documentos arriba mencionados, es necesario presentar identificación con fotografía acompañada de alguno de los siguientes documentos:

* Acta de nacimiento.
* Clave Única de Registro de Población.
* Acta de matrimonio.
* Acta de nacimiento de alguno de sus hijos.
* Fe de Bautismo.
* Constancia de residencia emitida por la autoridad del lugar donde reside el interesado.
* Testimonial de la autoridad tradicional indígena y de la autoridad municipal o la delegación del lugar.

Si el adulto mayor es extranjero, deberá presentar:

* FM2, FM3 ó carta de naturalización.

Comprobante de domicilio. Podrá presentar cualquiera de los siguientes comprobantes:

* Recibo de luz.
* Boleta predial.
* Recibo de agua.
* Recibo de teléfono.
* Recibo de gas.
* Cualquier estado de cuenta que contenga los datos de su dirección.

It looks like you only need copies of your birth certificate if you don't have one of the IDs mentioned in the first group of documents needed to prove your age, for example, a passport or driver's license.


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## RVGRINGO

This thread is about IMMIGRATION CHANGES.
Not INAPAM cards.
Please........
Moderator: Can you split this?


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## Infidel_jack

DNP said:


> I'm guessing, but I think that to get an INAPAM, you need to have shown paper(s) that show your legal status and that you also meet the age requirement for such a card. Not the best form of ID, but for minor stuff, it probably suffices.
> 
> It's not for everyone. As a tourist, for example, you're not eligible. (Your legal status doesn't qualify you.)
> 
> It's a discount card for Seniors, not a visa.
> 
> WashDC/SMA


I know what it is and I want it for discounts, not ID. I have an FM3 visa that is ggood until 8/3/13. Does that qualify or not? 
AQre you from DC or SMA? I was born in DC but have not lived there since 1948. I never lived in San Juan Miguel Allende and I may have passed through once over thirty years ago...where do you get that erroneous reference?


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## DNP

What erroneous reference?

I have in two homes: one in Northern Virginia, outside of D.C., and one in SMA, where I am now.


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## Infidel_jack

DNP said:


> What erroneous reference?
> 
> I have in two homes: one in Northern Virginia, outside of D.C., and one in SMA, where I am now.


jajaja...thought you were saying I live in DC and SMA
Sorry


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## DNP

Infidel_jack said:


> jajaja...thought you were saying I live in DC and SMA
> Sorry


Enough said.


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## Jolga

*Important Immigration Question Answered in Mazatlan*

I have been reading many panicked messages in here and The Yahoo Maz forum about the financial requirement for a spouse. The rumours and hypotheses have ranged from 'It's 30000 Pesos per month for 6 months proven" to "30000 pesos each for a total of 60000 pesos proven for 6 months. "

One purported "reliable" source" (a lawyer) even said he was sure that it was 30000 pesos per month for 6 months plus an extra $500 for the spouse!

Once my head stopped spinning, I decided to email my contact Adrianna at the Mazatlan IMN and get an answer straight from the horses mouth.

Here are the pertinent parts of my question and her answer in Spanish, followed by a Google translation to English:

_En la reunión de información de INM sobre inmigración en Mazatlán la siguiente pregunta fue hecha:

¿Los ingresos requeridos pueden ser combinados cuando los solicitantes son esposos?

La respuesta fue::

NO. LOS INGRESOS SON POR CADA UNO.
Muchos futuros solicitantes para Tarjetas Permanentes no entiendo muy bien lo que esto realmente significa. Tal vez si te lo pido con un ejemplo concreto (el mío) todos estarán claros en esto:

En el Consulado de México en Calgary, me dijeron que mi esposa estaba incluido automáticamente como dependiente en mi solicitud y que yo tendría que demostrar 30.000 pesos por mes en mi cuenta bancaria llegando durante 6 meses. ¿Están diciendo que ahora necesitamos doble de esa cantidad? O tal vez un porcentaje para mí y mi esposa?_

Her Answer:

Buenos días:

_En nuestras leyes dice que es por cada uno, pero si el consulado decide aceptarle esos 30,000 por los dos (usted y su esposa), está bien.

Espero que la información le haya sido de ayuda._




Now in English:

At the INM briefing on immigration in Mazatlan the following question was asked:

May the income required be combined if the applicants are married?

The response was ::

NO. EARNINGS PER EACH.

_Many prospective applicants for permanent cards do not quite understand what this really means. Perhaps if I ask you about a specific example (mine) this will help clear up the ambiguity:

I was told by The Consulate of Mexico in Calgary, that my wife was automatically included as a dependent on my application and I would have to show 30,000 pesos per month coming into my bank account for 6 months. Are you saying that we now need twice that amount? Or maybe a percentage for my wife and myself_ 

Her answer:

_In our laws says it is for everyone, but if the consulate decides to accept those 30,000 for the two (you and your wife), fine.

I hope the information has been helpful_

It looks like they are starting to INTERPRET the letter of the law, while at the same time following the spirit of the law. This is a good thing for all of us.:clap2:


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## AlanMexicali

That may be the case for Consular applications from abroad. I was told here in Mexico my package was sent to Mexico City and approved there and the part with the fingerprints and photos were done on Monday and I forgot to ask if it would be sent to Mexico City also to have the Residente Temporal card issued. It seems they are doing all approvals in Mexico City inside Mexico which would indicate the offices in different locations have no say in what will be approved or not. Could it be the same for the consular offices abroad also and they are required to send the packages there for approval? We will see. Alan


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## Longford

If you've been following the discussion elsewhere on the expat-Mexico web, you've probably heard the following ... but not everyone hears the same things ... so I'm repeating what I believe is being said to be accurate:

+Processing of visa applications is partially being outsourced to a private contractor, in the final stages.
+Final decisions are being made in Mexico City.
+INM offices are closing for vacation, 3 weeks, starting sometime probably the week of December 17th.
+Visa confirmation not received by an applicant prior to the start of the vacation will not then be received or acted upon until January 7th or afterwards.
+There's still a lot of uncertainty/lack of clarity in how the income requirements are being applied, or will be applied.

Nothing seems to be etched in stone, yet. But the above is what I'm seeing repeated and mentioned by Rolly Brook and this is being presented as a further contribution to the discussion and not meant to be relied upon just because it appears on this forum.


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## sparks

This just on MexConnect



> Visas are processed and approved locally. Following the finger printing stage in 2 plus weeks, your file is sent electronically to Mexico City where an outside firm has been contracted to process your final visa. Total time about 6 weeks and longer with holidays.


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## Isla Verde

This just on MexConnect

Quote:


> Visas are processed and approved locally. Following the finger printing stage in 2 plus weeks, your file is sent electronically to Mexico City where an outside firm has been contracted to process your final visa. Total time about 6 weeks and longer with holidays.


This sounds good, but whose words are being quoted?


----------



## sparks

MexConnect.com Forums: General: Living, Working, Retiring: Income Requirements

I still think there may be regional differences until this settles out in a few months. That post is the "rosey-est" I've seen as well as the followups but it's only SMA for the moment


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## Infidel_jack

What is the new visa called? If I marry my Mexican Girlfriend, would that solve the problem? I have until 3 agosto, 2013.


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## 1happykamper

*Translation of my application please...*

Hola!! Can someone please translate the attached image for me? It's the stages that my visa app is in... I just don't know what stage ! 

Cheers


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## TundraGreen

1happykamper said:


> Hola!! Can someone please translate the attached image for me? It's the stages that my visa app is in... I just don't know what stage !
> 
> Cheers
> View attachment 6754


The translation is pretty much what it sounds like:
Your paperwork has been received, assigned and classified, and a payment has been received. I am not sure how much that really helps.


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## johnmex

The payment applied part usually means that the process has been approved. I said usually...


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## 1happykamper

johnmex said:


> The payment applied part usually means that the process has been approved. I said usually...


Oh wouldn't that be just ducky!


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## FHBOY

*Verification needed!*

Folks, I am depending on those with some expertise to tell me that what I was told by my contact in the DC Consulate sounds correct. After all the discussion on this and a separate Board, I just hope that she is correct. So here goes:

I got a call back from the Mexican Consulate in DC in response to my question as to what I would need to bring there to get my visa. Here is what I was told:
FOR ME:
1. Valid Passport with a copy of the information page
2. One passport size photo, front view, no glasses, white background
3. EITHER:
a. Proof of a pension (including Social Security) of a monthly income of $2,500. This must include a letter from the SSA confirming the amount for the last six months.
OR
b. Proof of investments for the last 12 months totaling $120,000. (I suppose this can be in the form of investment statements.)
FOR SWMBO (my wife):
1. Valid Passport with a copy of the information page
2. One passport size photo, front view, no glasses, white background.
3. Proof of marriage to me - Marriage certificate
3. EITHER
a. Proof of a pension in the amount of $550 for the last six months
OR
b. Proof of investments of $1,600 for the last six months.
She would become a Residencia Temporal attached to me (huh?)

The money needed was $36.00 each

I was then told that I would have to register in front of Mexican authorities once I got to Mexico and was given three phone numbers to call for more information:
USA 1-877-210-9469 - _(this got to what sounded like a Mexican ring tone, that changed to a bz signal)_
USA 1-877-210-0469 _(this was Airphone connected to people currently flying)_
In DF: 011-52-555-487-2400 - option 2 (in English) _[I got someone who didn't know English, there was no Option 2 to be chosen, or why I was calling and hung up]_

I asked what we would walk out of the Consulate with and was told, well, I really didn't get an answer because I was overwhelmed by the previous information and I believe that it was difficult for her to explain. I thought that I would leave the Consulate with Residencia Temporal for both of us, that there would be not need to do any more paperwork, or pay any additional fees, once I got to Mexico.

I asked if she had this written out somewhere and could she send it to me, even if it was in Spanish. She replied that there wasn't anything like that, that she was reading from the law itself and that there were so many variations of qualifications for a visa there was no way to "summarize" it (?)

On another front, I asked about the kitties and she said what was needed was there vaccination certificates and proof of good health from our vet dated no more than a month from when we entered the country. Again, this conflicts with what I have read some many posts that such a verification of good health could be no more than 5 days old.

I suppose I will go to the Consulate with the information and documents she outlined and see what I get, but I am nervous about all of this. If there is anyone who knows for a fact that I have been given the correct information, please contact me. Why is it I feel like I was told about the old law - you know do paperwork in the USA, then do it again in Mexico, and not the new law, do it once in the USA?


----------



## AlanMexicali

FHBOY said:


> Folks, I am depending on those with some expertise to tell me that what I was told by my contact in the DC Consulate sounds correct. After all the discussion on this and a separate Board, I just hope that she is correct. So here goes:
> 
> I got a call back from the Mexican Consulate in DC in response to my question as to what I would need to bring there to get my visa. Here is what I was told:
> FOR ME:
> 1. Valid Passport with a copy of the information page
> 2. One passport size photo, front view, no glasses, white background
> 3. EITHER:
> a. Proof of a pension (including Social Security) of a monthly income of $2,500. This must include a letter from the SSA confirming the amount for the last six months.
> OR
> b. Proof of investments for the last 12 months totaling $120,000. (I suppose this can be in the form of investment statements.)
> FOR SWMBO (my wife):
> 1. Valid Passport with a copy of the information page
> 2. One passport size photo, front view, no glasses, white background.
> 3. Proof of marriage to me - Marriage certificate
> 3. EITHER
> a. Proof of a pension in the amount of $550 for the last six months
> OR
> b. Proof of investments of $1,600 for the last six months.
> She would become a Residencia Temporal attached to me (huh?)
> 
> The money needed was $36.00 each
> 
> I was then told that I would have to register in front of Mexican authorities once I got to Mexico and was given three phone numbers to call for more information:
> USA 1-877-210-9469 - _(this got to what sounded like a Mexican ring tone, that changed to a bz signal)_
> USA 1-877-210-0469 _(this was Airphone connected to people currently flying)_
> In DF: 011-52-555-487-2400 - option 2 (in English) _[I got someone who didn't know English, there was no Option 2 to be chosen, or why I was calling and hung up]_
> 
> I asked what we would walk out of the Consulate with and was told, well, I really didn't get an answer because I was overwhelmed by the previous information and I believe that it was difficult for her to explain. I thought that I would leave the Consulate with Residencia Temporal for both of us, that there would be not need to do any more paperwork, or pay any additional fees, once I got to Mexico.
> 
> I asked if she had this written out somewhere and could she send it to me, even if it was in Spanish. She replied that there wasn't anything like that, that she was reading from the law itself and that there were so many variations of qualifications for a visa there was no way to "summarize" it (?)
> 
> On another front, I asked about the kitties and she said what was needed was there vaccination certificates and proof of good health from our vet dated no more than a month from when we entered the country. Again, this conflicts with what I have read some many posts that such a verification of good health could be no more than 5 days old.
> 
> I suppose I will go to the Consulate with the information and documents she outlined and see what I get, but I am nervous about all of this. If there is anyone who knows for a fact that I have been given the correct information, please contact me. Why is it I feel like I was told about the old law - you know do paperwork in the USA, then do it again in Mexico, and not the new law, do it once in the USA?


What I undersatand is you DO have to go to your local INM office in Mexico to get fingerprinted, give them more photos, maybe a proof of residence. The consular will attach a form to your passports with a NUT [numero unico tramite] number and give you a clave, website logon, most likely to check in with in Mexico or whatever consulars give out to show you are approved and ready for the next step in Mexico.


----------



## TundraGreen

FHBOY said:


> …
> 2. One passport size photo, front view, no glasses, white background
> …


I can't help with most of that, never having gone through the new process nor at a Mexican consulate in the US. 

But about the photos… In the past they have required two each of frontal and profile photos, taken without glasses. The size has been, 2-1/2 cm x 3 cm, which is smaller than US Passport size (more like 3-1/2 x 4-1/2 cm).

Mexican bureaucracies like lots of photos. Keep the extras. You can use them for an INAPAM card or IMSS or next year's visa.


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## makaloco

FHBOY said:


> I thought that I would leave the Consulate with Residencia Temporal for both of us, that there would be not need to do any more paperwork, or pay any additional fees, once I got to Mexico.


If I understand the new procedures correctly, you'll leave the consulate with a Residencia Temporal * visa* in your passport, not the Residencia Temporal card itself. When you get to Mexico, you have a limited amount of time complete the process at your local INM office to get the actual residence card. I believe you'll pay the fees as part of that process.


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## zapfilms

Thanks for all this info. Any clue if this is in response to USA severe migration policies vis a vis Mexes? I know my friends who happen to be male and under 40 single Mexicans are typically infuriated at the nasty US embassy treatment, even when they are home owners here with jobs they can waste money and time being refused.


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## DNP

Why are they dealing with the U.S. Embassy at all!? 

What are they "being refused"?

"Mexes" ?



zapfilms said:


> Thanks for all this info. Any clue if this is in response to USA severe migration policies vis a vis Mexes? I know my friends who happen to be male and under 40 single Mexicans are typically infuriated at the nasty US embassy treatment, even when they are home owners here with jobs they can waste money and time being refused.


----------



## Isla Verde

DNP said:


> Why are they dealing with the U.S. Embassy at all!?
> 
> What are they "being refused"?
> 
> "Mexes" ?


I think zapfilms is referring to Mexicans being refused for travel visas to the US, which you have to apply for at the US Embassy in Mexico City. I know of lots of similar cases where people like his friends are turned down for no good reason.


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## mickisue1

It's not just Mexico; the US Embassies are basically as arbitrary in most countries.

A friend in my company, an accountant who is becoming self-employed, went to the embassy in Trinidad-Tobago, to get a visa to come for our big conference last fall. She was allowed, but the two people before her, with similar professional credentials, were refused visas for no apparent reason.


----------



## Longford

zapfilms said:


> Thanks for all this info. Any clue if this is in response to USA severe migration policies vis a vis Mexes? I know my friends who happen to be male and under 40 single Mexicans are typically infuriated at the nasty US embassy treatment, even when they are home owners here with jobs they can waste money and time being refused.


Each country has it's entry requirements. The requests to visit the USA, made by people in Mexico, when they make the request at all, are in numbers probably unseen anywhere else. Given the illegal alien situation, the war in Mexico, terrorism, etc., etc., the USA filters the applicants. Though not perfect, the process seems reasonable from my viewpoint. Think it's tough getting permission for the USA? Try Canada. I, for one, think the new Mexican INM regulations are reasonable from the country's point of view. Mexico has treated many people shamefully in the past, and has killed many illegal aliens ... almost as if a sport. Some of the law changes and regulations have those abuses in mind as well. There will be a 6 month to one year shake-out period for the new regs and changes instituted by the new federal government ... the dust will settle, the "poor" expats from NOB will leave, even more expats will arrive to start a new life in Mexico ... and the beat will go on.


----------



## TundraGreen

Just as a note on US immigration policies …

I know quite a few of the people who work for the US State Department at the US Consulate in Guadalajara. One of them, whose job was interviewing Mexicans applying for visas to visit the US, told me that he approved 85% of all the visa applications he reviewed. He said his rate was a little higher than most Consulate officers who had an average closer to 80%.


----------



## grotton

DNP said:


> Why are they dealing with the U.S. Embassy at all!?
> 
> What are they "being refused"?
> 
> "Mexes" ?


I was wondering the same thing. My entire Mexican family, including 28 year old Mexican friend, sailed through the process of getting tourist Visas. They applied at the Consulate in Guadalajara. That said, I've heard the process can be a bit hit and miss. For instance, my friend bought a stack of documents and the immigration guy didn't even ask to look at them. Apparently everything he wanted to know was on his computer screen in front of him. He later applied for a student visa and received that without problem as well.


----------



## zapfilms

DNP said:


> Why are they dealing with the U.S. Embassy at all!?
> 
> What are they "being refused"?
> 
> "Mexes" ?


Mexicans who want to visit the US need to apply to the US embassy for visas. Single men under 40 regardless of situation are profiled as potential illegals - engenders lots of resentment. and my many friends here in Mexico do not object to being referred to as Mexes, just as we from USA are gabachos or gringos.


----------



## Isla Verde

zapfilms said:


> Mexicans who want to visit the US need to apply to the US embassy for visas. Single men under 40 regardless of situation are profiled as potential illegals - engenders lots of resentment. and my many friends here in Mexico do not object to being referred to as Mexes, just as we from USA are gabachos or gringos.


Or even older than 40. An American woman who has lived here for around 10 years has a Mexican live-in boyfriend, a man in his early fifties who owns a couple of apartments and is a professional with a university degree. When he applied for a tourist visa, so he could take a short vacation in the States with my friend, he was turned down. Apparently, the Embassy official who interviewed him erroneously tagged him as someone who was just itching to leave behind his life in Mexico to become an illegal gardener or construction worker in the States.

I've never heard the term "Mexes" before. Is it English or Spanish? Your many Mexican friends may have been too polite to object to being referred to with this term.


----------



## Longford

During 43 years of travel throughout Mexico, I've never heard someone use the word "Mexes," either. I'm going to assume it's a local/regional _dicho_.


----------



## Infidel_jack

Longford said:


> Each country has it's entry requirements. The requests to visit the USA, made by people in Mexico, when they make the request at all, are in numbers probably unseen anywhere else. Given the illegal alien situation, the war in Mexico, terrorism, etc., etc., the USA filters the applicants. Though not perfect, the process seems reasonable from my viewpoint. Think it's tough getting permission for the USA? Try Canada. I, for one, think the new Mexican INM regulations are reasonable from the country's point of view. Mexico has treated many people shamefully in the past, and has killed many illegal aliens ... almost as if a sport. Some of the law changes and regulations have those abuses in mind as well. There will be a 6 month to one year shake-out period for the new regs and changes instituted by the new federal government ... the dust will settle, the "poor" expats from NOB will leave, even more expats will arrive to start a new life in Mexico ... and the beat will go on.


Given the current level of unemployment in the US, who would want a VISA in the first place?


----------



## Longford

Infidel_jack said:


> Given the current level of unemployment in the US, who would want a VISA in the first place?


Given your lack of familiarity with current events in both Mexico and the USA, I suppose the question is understandable. :confused2:

Why a Mexican would request a visa in any one of the classifications necessary to visit or live in the USA could be posed to the thousands who visit U.S. Consular offices in Mexico each week seeking those visas. They are in high demand, though.

The same question could be turned around and asked of those foreigners who want to visit/live in Mexico. Why on Earth would someone want to do that? It's a question tens of millions of people in the USA and Canada ask themselves citing various things they either hear or know about Mexico. 

The answer to both is probably, _ni modo_.


----------



## Infidel_jack

Longford said:


> Given your lack of familiarity with current events in both Mexico and the USA, I suppose the question is understandable. :confused2:
> 
> Why a Mexican would request a visa in any one of the classifications necessary to visit or live in the USA could be posed to the thousands who visit U.S. Consular offices in Mexico each week seeking those visas. They are in high demand, though.
> 
> The same question could be turned around and asked of those foreigners who want to visit/live in Mexico. Why on Earth would someone want to do that? It's a question tens of millions of people in the USA and Canada ask themselves citing various things they either hear or know about Mexico.
> 
> The answer to both is probably, _ni modo_.


Which current events, Longford?


----------



## zapfilms

Isla Verde said:


> Or even older than 40. An American woman who has lived here for around 10 years has a Mexican live-in boyfriend, a man in his early fifties who owns a couple of apartments and is a professional with a university degree. When he applied for a tourist visa, so he could take a short vacation in the States with my friend, he was turned down. Apparently, the Embassy official who interviewed him erroneously tagged him as someone who was just itching to leave behind his life in Mexico to become an illegal gardener or construction worker in the States.
> 
> I've never heard the term "Mexes" before. Is it English or Spanish? Your many Mexican friends may have been too polite to object to being referred to with this term.


My Mexican friends would not be characterized as polite about possible denigration, in my experience this is a culture with a good verbal sense of humor. I have lived here 9 yrs working with 90% Mexicans, worked here alot previously and don´t worry much about offending people without them pointing it out and bonking me on the head.


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## Isla Verde

zapfilms said:


> My Mexican friends would not be characterized as polite about possible denigration, in my experience this is a culture with a good verbal sense of humor. I have lived here 9 yrs working with 90% Mexicans, worked here alot previously and don´t worry much about offending people without them pointing it out and bonking me on the head.


I'm still confused about this word "Mexes". Is it Spanish or English or Spanglish?


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## zapfilms

I guess you could say Spanglish as it is a cool combo lingua...

In USA of course the citizens who have been there awhile, including descendents of Mexicans have all sorts of terms for the newbies from the South, in SoCal you hear Wabs alot these days - for Walk Across the Border...


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## Isla Verde

zapfilms said:


> I guess you could say Spanglish as it is a cool combo lingua...
> 
> In USA of course the citizens who have been there awhile, including descendents of Mexicans have all sorts of terms for the newbies from the South, in SoCal you hear Wabs alot these days - for Walk Across the Border...


So if "Mexes" is some sort of Spanglish word used in the US, then Mexicans living in Mexico might not pick up on any negative connotations it carries.


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## gnovi

Any updates on the new points system? It seems like any information I try to research on this says it's still being figured out. If I had known that the changes were going to be so radical I probably would have tried to get my FM3 when I was there in early 2012! Seems like I'll want to get an immigration lawyer regardless, as there's not much consensus on how the new law applies and will be implemented. I'm holding my breath and thinking happy thoughts.


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## Isla Verde

gnovi said:


> Any updates on the new points system? It seems like any information I try to research on this says it's still being figured out. If I had known that the changes were going to be so radical I probably would have tried to get my FM3 when I was there in early 2012! Seems like I'll want to get an immigration lawyer regardless, as there's not much consensus on how the new law applies and will be implemented. I'm holding my breath and thinking happy thoughts.


Not yet. In Mexico nothing much happens over the Christmas holiday season anyway. I have read that the point system may be published sometime in January. Thinking happy thoughts - recommended -- holding your breath - not!


----------



## gnovi

Isla Verde said:


> Not yet. In Mexico nothing much happens over the Christmas holiday season anyway. I have read that the point system may be published sometime in January. Thinking happy thoughts - recommended -- holding your breath - not!


Yeah, you're right about that, I'll keep breathing till mañana. 

I've already come to learn and appreciate timing there, but when it comes to my future life there it's hard to be as patient!


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## conklinwh

We went to renew visas in San Miguel. We presently have no immigrante rentista visas.
My goal was to try to get my wife a Permanent visa while I received a Temporary visa.
What a mess. We do have somewhat unusual circumstances as I retired from a large corporation with a monthly pension while my wife had her own business which we sold when we moved to Mexico. We used some of her proceeds to buy and build in Mexico and put the rest into various funds which we don't touch.
We have a joint account where my pension and both our SSA are deposited.
We were told that for my wife to get a Permanent visa that we would have to show sources with her name on it that were deposited monthly. They really only wanted SSA & pensions and not assets or monthly distribution of assets. In addition, they would need 6 months of bank statements translated into Spanish as ours a US bank.
We dropped back to both getting Temporary visas and that basically a set of forms.
Cost was $3100p each for the visas for one year(you can get two years for $4K+, or 3 years) but the reporting requirements seemed onerous.
Then we found out that the previous 1 week turnaround was now 5 weeks.
This creates a sort of "catch 22" with the car permiso which is tied to the visa end date which expires during the 5 week period. So not only no visas, but possibility of expired permiso and loss of deposit.
Anyway, I'm off Monday to Aduana in Queretaro with our passports, documents that we have applied for new visas and last year's permiso extension papers to see if a way to keep permiso valid till visa returns.


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## Longford

The new procedures have been exhausively discused here , and elsewhere on the web. Mexconnect is where the consolidation of information is best presented. But it seems to me you've not paid attention. My advice is that you have an immigration attorney or facilitator assist you ... this first year of the new regs. It'll be worth the expense, IMO.


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## kcowan

We had our FM3s for 4 years and they told us we would go to Permanent. No financial info, no fideiscomiso (both of which I had), just a letter requesting permanent residence that states that we are financially independent, and a declaration on the forms that we each receive 33k pesos/mo in income. Done Dec 10th, the day before the FM3s expired.


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## conklinwh

Longford said:


> The new procedures have been exhausively discused here , and elsewhere on the web. Mexconnect is where the consolidation of information is best presented. But it seems to me you've not paid attention. My advice is that you have an immigration attorney or facilitator assist you ... this first year of the new regs. It'll be worth the expense, IMO.


We did use a facilitator but even she is unsure of the car situation since seems very fluid.
She thought we might be able to use the joint funds to get my wife the permanent visa but now needs be sources with her name on it. This was our 1st renewal, lots of issues as to why, and understand conversion at 4th easier.

Sorry Longford if you are frustrated.


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## joaquinx

I went to INM last week to verify that when I return in March, I would qualify. Although I have the income for an Inmigrate/FM2, I don't have enough for a permanent resident visa. With my five years on a FM3 and one on a FM2, I qualify for a temporary resident visa. I can pay 5,940 pesos for a three year permit and after that I can go permanent. That'll keep me from relocating to Spain.


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## Isla Verde

joaquinx said:


> I went to INM last week to verify that when I return in March, I would qualify. Although I have the income for an Inmigrate/FM2, I don't have enough for a permanent resident visa. With my five years on a FM3 and one on a FM2, I qualify for a temporary resident visa. I can pay 5,940 pesos for a three year permit and after that I can go permanent. That'll keep me from relocating to Spain.


After your three years on the temporary resident visa are up, will you qualify for permanent resident without having to present financial statements? If you end up moving to Spain, won't the financial requirements there be even more onerous than the ones now required in Mexico?


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## joaquinx

Isla Verde said:


> After your three years on the temporary resident visa are up, will you qualify for permanent resident without having to present financial statements? If you end up moving to Spain, won't the financial requirements there be even more onerous than the ones now required in Mexico?


From what the agent said, I just walk-in in 2016 and get a Permanent Resident Visa period. No financials.

Spain has an income requirement of around 1,700 usd, but like Mexico, it depends on the consulate if you "qualify." San Francisco seems to be the worst, while on the East Coast it is 1,700. The rule reads "financially independent."


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## conklinwh

As Longford berided me for not doing, I did go on Mexconnect. Really not much help as nothing on the TIP/extending permiso. Also, people are having same problem we had. Technically you can have income, assets or property but seems, as in San Miguel, that there appears to be a narrow focus on income.


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## Longford

conklinwh said:


> Sorry Longford if you are frustrated.


I'm not the frustrated one. …[Excised]… The rules are in a state of flux but the interpretations being applied seem to be firming-up. I'll suggest once again that you consult some qualified to handle the matter, if, in fact, you're actually in Mexico. :juggle:


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## circle110

Longford said:


> I'm not the frustrated one. …[Excised]… The rules are in a state of flux but the interpretations being applied seem to be firming-up. I'll suggest once again that you consult some qualified to handle the matter, if, in fact, you're actually in Mexico. :juggle:


I'm sorry Longford, but that response is utterly bizarre. I can vouch for the fact that conklinwh is indeed in Mexico - I have met him and visited his home in Pozos. It appears, on the other hand, that you are not in Mexico. Odd.

So, here's one person who lives in Mexico and has information he received directly from his local INM office in San Miguel de Allende, and another person who doesn't live in Mexico and has not visited that SMA INM office telling him that he's wrong and confused. Hmmm.... to whom do I give more credence?

I read the Mexconnect forum as well and it has no clear information whatsoever. There is one nutcase on there from the Yucatan that claims to be authoritative and writes oddly long posts and gets offended if anyone questions his absolute authority "throughout the country of Mexico". Outside of that, it is a mixed bag of experiences with different people getting different information at the various INM offices.

I am going to INM San Miguel (that's my local INM office too, for better or worse) on Tuesday to get the latest information on my particular situation. I will report back in this thread as to what I am told.

Yes, I really am in Mexico, honest!


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## Longford

*Meeting with INM at Lake Chapala*

A 'heads up' for expats who reside or spend extended periods of time in the Lake Chapala communities and who will be there January 18th: You will have the opportunity to ask your questions directly to the head of the local office of the INM .. according to a report in the _Guadalajara Reporter_:



> Still flummoxed by recent changes in Mexico’s immigration law? Juan Carlos Galvan, head man at Chapala’s Instituto Nacional de Migracion (INM) office, is on board to help clear the air during an open information session scheduled for *Friday, January 18, 11 a.m., at the Lake Chapala Society, 16 de Septiembre 16-A, Ajijic.*
> 
> The official will address key issues of concern among local expatriates and field common questions. A central aim is to guide interested parties on how to handle INM procedures on their own to avoid the cost of hiring third-party facilitators.
> 
> Aurora Michel will be present to help overcome the language barrier and register notes on the main points. Printed hand-outs explaining current requirements to qualify for temporary or permanent resident status will also be available to those in attendance.


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## conklinwh

Longford said:


> I'm not the frustrated one. …[Excised]… The rules are in a state of flux but the interpretations being applied seem to be firming-up. I'll suggest once again that you consult some qualified to handle the matter, if, in fact, you're actually in Mexico. :juggle:


As Circle110 said, I am in Mexico as hard to go to San Miguel INM if not in SMA. Also as I said earlier, I did use an expediter. 

In fact, I met with expediter this AM to get passports and key piece of paper that says that I have applied for a visa with a file number.

I took this plus my passport, car registration, permiso and last years extension to Aduana in Queretaro.

Always risky to rely on one person but this what I was told.

1st, they can't do the extension without the visa. However, she said that the form from INM along with my passport and the permiso/extension should satisfy any need till visa completed. Did get some better news on visa timing. We were told last Thursday that 5 weeks but when I picked up the forms today, they said that could be 28 January.

I was asked by the expediter to get some info for her about visas and US plated cars.

Again just one person in Queretaro but feedback was that no problem with US plated car and Temporal visa but there was with Permanente.
She told me that unless the Permanent visa had ability to work in Mexico, it precluded US plated car. Surprising that OK to have US plated car with Permanent visa and ability to work.

Anyhow, that's my status. Hopefully two weeks for visas and then back to Aduana.


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## Hound Dog

Back in November, 2010, we achieved "Inmigrado" (permanent resident) status after 10 years of, first FM-3 and, then FM-2 status and walked out of INM in Guadalajara that day with the assurance that we would never need to darken those dreadful doors again. This was a time when the Chapala INM office had been temporarily closed and the INM office at the Federal Building in Guadalajara was where applicants for visas were required to go. In those days, that wholly inadequate INM office was greatly overcrowded with a stifling atmosphere. Going there was an uncomfortable experience to say the least. Chapala has since reopened but we had thought that did not concern us. For those unacquainted with the old "Inmigrado" card, it has no expiration date at all except, of course, the expiration of the holder at life´s end. Now we have heard that at some undefined point in time, holders of inmigrado cards must come in to INM and exchange those cards for the new "Residente Permanente" cards. I have been reading this and a few other forums on the new immigration rules and the experiences of others, primarily those who have yet to achieve the status of permanent residency yet these readings have only seemed to deepen the confusion so, of course, since there is no expiry date in "Inmigrado" cards, we have deferred any action until some time in the future when INM has gotten its act back together. We have heard everything from the assertions that all we need do is exchange the cards for the new cards to the notion that we must once again, after all this time, once again meet some, as yet, poorly defined financial criteria to make the exchange. This rather lengthy thread is, it seems to me, a sign that the confusion regarding the changes in rules has many applicants for whatever status totally confused. 

I am curious as to whether, in fact, the old "Inmigrado" card must, truly, be replaced with the new card or if, in reality, that old style card is good indefinitely. Secondly, if the old card must, in fact, be replaced at some time in the future, what is the time frame allowed to accomplish that replacement and, thirdly, will new financial requirement criteria be imposed upon the applicant at the time of the proposed exchange?

I have no delusions that most of the readers of this or any other forum have an answer to this inquiry but I am hoping that some reader out there with "Inmigrado" status held prior to the changes in the law may have attempted and accomplished the exchange already and will be kind enough to share their experience with me. I suspect other "Inmigrado" card holders are, as are we, just lying low waiting for the dust to clear but I figure there is no harm in asking.


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## maesonna

Dog, as an [email protected], I felt as you did; i.e., that I had been told I never had to go to INM again, and it didn’t seem fair that now I did have to go back and do another _trámite_. 

But when I took a trip outside Mexico in 2011 (I carried a visa booklet, not a card), the officer at the airport told me something along the lines of “You can exit and reenter with this document this time, but when you come back, you’d better get your card before you try to leave the country again.” 

So I bit the bullet and went for the card. It was very easy, and the officials at the office were helpful and guided me through the (very minimal) paperwork). To put one of your main worries at rest, it is not a matter of reviewing status in any way, simply a change of the physical document.

My situation: I am in DF, and dealt with the DF office. I have work permission, have never been a rentista.


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## Hound Dog

Thanks for that response, maesonna. You are the first correspondent I have heard from on any forum that had "inmigrado" status and has crossed borders since acquiring that status. My wife is currently in Guatemala and will be returning to Mexico at the border with Chiapas from Lake Atitlan in a couple of days. She will have her Inmigrado Card with her and it will be interesting to see how immigration in Chiapas reacts when she crosses into Mexico. Since you had a "visa booklet" and not a card, your experience may or may not be different from hers but it will be interesting to see her experience at crossing. I hope not _too_ interesting. When she crosses and has related her experience to me, I´ll report back on this forum. If it turns out your problem was simply because of the booklet, perhaps her Inmigrado Card will suffice for now into the near future.

By the way, do you mean that you exchanged the booklet for a new "Inmigrado" Card or the new "Residente Permanente" Card that is supposed to supercede the Inmigrado Card?


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## maesonna

Hound Dog said:


> By the way, do you mean that you exchanged the booklet for a new "Inmigrado" Card or the new "Residente Permanente" Card that is supposed to supercede the Inmigrado Card?


Good question. I’m not sure. All I can tell you is that i got it in August, 2011, it says INMIGRADO on the front, and on the back it says “El extranjero Inmigrado tiene derechos de residencia definitiva en México/The owner of this document is a permanent resident in Mexico.”

I hope I won’t have to get another one! I just took a trip outside Mexico over the holidays, got back a week ago and no Mexican immigration official commented on the card when I presented it, either when I was leaving or returning.


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## circle110

I made my trip the the San Miguel INM office today. I was also there 4 weeks ago to ask questions and what a difference a month makes in their answers!

4 weeks ago I was told that I needed to get our US marriage license apostilled, translated and registered at the local registro civil and then I could do the change to my immigration status to make me "married to a Mexican citizen". With that status, I would only have to renew as a "residente temporal" this March and the following year I could convert to "residente permanente".

With all the different things I have read on people's experiences with the various INM offices regard bank statements, income etc., I decided I had better go and ask them exactly what I should do for my coming renewal this March, including changing my marital status.

Here is what I was told today:

Marriage to a Mexican national no longer has any bearing whatsoever on one's immigration status. The only thing that matters is if we have children who are Mexican citizens - then I would go immediately to "residente permanente"; otherwise, I am in the same boat as a single person even though I am married to a Mexican.

He told me that it will be easy for me since I have a "no inmigrante" with 1 year on it. All I need to do is fill out the online form, fill out the formato basico that he gave me a copy of, write a letter stating that nothing has changed as far as my domicile or income goes, pay the fee of $5900 (and change) pesos and come in and they will give me a 3 year "residente temporal". I won't need to visit INM for the next three years and in three years when I return, I can convert to "residente permanente". I could just pay for one year at a time but I agree with the fellow that doing for three years is cheaper and simpler.

It was a surprise to me that things had changed so much between December and now, but since I won't have to supply any bank information and won't need to visit INM for three years afterwards, the end result is actually easier for me.

It's just further proof that the only "correct" answer is the one the person on the other side of the desk is giving you at that moment. I hope it all goes as smoothly as the fellow today explained it.


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## Longford

circle110 said:


> It's just further proof that the only "correct" answer is the one the person on the other side of the desk is giving you at that moment. I hope it all goes as smoothly as the fellow today explained it.


From what I've been reading on other expat forums, there seems to have been a settling of opinions/applications of the regulations and that's what was expected at the beginning of the process. There would be a 'shake down' period during which local and national staff would become familiar with the regs and experience how their application impacted people and then considered changes and other policy interpretations. As you were told, it seems to be a consistent response now that as long as someone is currently in Mexico living on a valid visa (other than the old FMM) the income test is waived. That is, no bank statements, etc., are being required. I see reports of that for Mexico City, the Chapala communities, and from a couple of comments coming from SMA (including yours). That lack if income proof or requirement to meet the new standard for first-timers, seems to have started to calm the fears of so many people who didn't think they could meet the new income requirements. The interpretation now being applied seems to be fair, to grandfather people already here. There's comments appearing, also, that the DF central office of INM has begun to bounce-back requests for special considerations. Rather than rendering opinions on everything from the D.F. the local offices may have some leeway in certain areas. But, at the end of the day ... as has always been true in Mexico ... where you file your paperwork and with whom you file it has a lot to do with your success in getting what you seek. Thanks for the update.


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## joaquinx

circle110 said:


> He told me that it will be easy for me since I have a "no inmigrante" with 1 year on it. All I need to do is fill out the online form, fill out the formato basico that he gave me a copy of, write a letter stating that nothing has changed as far as my domicile or income goes, pay the fee of $5900 (and change) pesos and come in and they will give me a 3 year "residente temporal". I won't need to visit INM for the next three years and in three years when I return, I can convert to "residente permanente". I could just pay for one year at a time but I agree with the fellow that doing for three years is cheaper and simpler.


That is what happened to me a few days ago when I went to INM. I have five years on a FM3/No Inmigrante and one year on a FM2/Inmigrante. I was told to come back in March, a month before expiration, and get a Residente Temporal. Hold that for three years and then convert that to a Residente Permanente in 2016 without financials. I was quoted 5,940 pesos. No financials on the renewal to Temporal, however, they did want financials on an immediate conversion to a Permenente.


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## Isla Verde

circle110 said:


> I made my trip the the San Miguel INM office today. I was also there 4 weeks ago to ask questions and what a difference a month makes in their answers!
> 
> 4 weeks ago I was told that I needed to get our US marriage license apostilled, translated and registered at the local registro civil and then I could do the change to my immigration status to make me "married to a Mexican citizen". With that status, I would only have to renew as a "residente temporal" this March and the following year I could convert to "residente permanente".
> 
> With all the different things I have read on people's experiences with the various INM offices regard bank statements, income etc., I decided I had better go and ask them exactly what I should do for my coming renewal this March, including changing my marital status.
> 
> Here is what I was told today:
> 
> Marriage to a Mexican national no longer has any bearing whatsoever on one's immigration status. The only thing that matters is if we have children who are Mexican citizens - then I would go immediately to "residente permanente"; otherwise, I am in the same boat as a single person even though I am married to a Mexican.
> 
> He told me that it will be easy for me since I have a "no inmigrante" with 1 year on it. All I need to do is fill out the online form, fill out the formato basico that he gave me a copy of, write a letter stating that nothing has changed as far as my domicile or income goes, pay the fee of $5900 (and change) pesos and come in and they will give me a 3 year "residente temporal". I won't need to visit INM for the next three years and in three years when I return, I can convert to "residente permanente". I could just pay for one year at a time but I agree with the fellow that doing for three years is cheaper and simpler.
> 
> It was a surprise to me that things had changed so much between December and now, but since I won't have to supply any bank information and won't need to visit INM for three years afterwards, the end result is actually easier for me.
> 
> It's just further proof that the only "correct" answer is the one the person on the other side of the desk is giving you at that moment. I hope it all goes as smoothly as the fellow today explained it.


Circle, thanks for recounting in detail your Adventures in INMlandia! Though my situation is quite different from yours, it was useful to read how much the information you received from your local INM office changed in just a month. My _No Inmigrante __lucrativa_ card will be up for renewal in May, and I've been thinking of visiting Migración in the DF this month to see what they tell me about changing to _residente permanente_ status. Hopefully, it will be the same information they'll give me in April!


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## maesonna

circle110 said:


> Marriage to a Mexican national no longer has any bearing whatsoever on one's immigration status. The only thing that matters is if we have children who are Mexican citizens - then I would go immediately to "residente permanente"; otherwise, I am in the same boat as a single person even though I am married to a Mexican.


To throw another element into the confusing mix, just today, a British acquaintance posted his experience which was the total opposite regarding the effect of marriage to a Mexican national. (His circumstances might be different than yours, though.)

He had married in Mexico, and was working and living in DF with his Mexican wife. A couple of years ago they decided to move to the UK. But it was not long before they decided to come back. He was concerned how the new immigration process would go for him, since he didn’t have a job lined up ahead of returning. 

Today he wrote, “The new regs have made it a lot easier for those married to a Mexican citizen. It was a breeze. From what I've read, for those working in DF without a native spouse, it's the same bureaucratic nightmare with new branding.”


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## circle110

Longford said:


> That lack if income proof or requirement to meet the new standard for first-timers, seems to have started to calm the fears of so many people who didn't think they could meet the new income requirements. The interpretation now being applied seems to be fair, to grandfather people already here.


Yes, a grandfathering in does seem the right way to do it. I'm glad they are doing so. 

However, after one's X years (three in my case) are up with "residente temporal", you will have to show proof of income at that time to convert to "residente permanente". The income requirement for that is pretty high for some. Or, if you want to stay with the lower income requirements for "residente temporal" you have to return to your country of origin and start the visa process from zero at the Mexican consulate. That is sort of what was happening to the guy before me at INM today so I overheard the whole explanation from the INM worker.


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## circle110

joaquinx said:


> That is what happened to me a few days ago when I went to INM. I have five years on a FM3/No Inmigrante and one year on a FM2/Inmigrante. I was told to come back in March, a month before expiration, and get a Residente Temporal. Hold that for three years and then convert that to a Residente Permanente in 2016 without financials. I was quoted 5,940 pesos. No financials on the renewal to Temporal, however, they did want financials on an immediate conversion to a Permenente.


Yes, that sounds just the same - except for one nice difference: they won't ask you for financials in 2016. That is Longford's grandfather clause truly and fully in action. I hope all the offices adopt that way of looking at things.


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## circle110

maesonna said:


> Today he wrote, “The new regs have made it a lot easier for those married to a Mexican citizen. It was a breeze. From what I've read, for those working in DF without a native spouse, it's the same bureaucratic nightmare with new branding.”


That is interesting. I was a bit surprised when they told me today that my marriage didn't matter for INM any more. The course of action that the INM guy recommended to me was perfectly acceptable for our situation but it still strikes me as odd that INM would stop taking into account the fact that you are married to a citizen.


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## cscscs007

This marriage to a Mexican citizen issue would be an excellent question to ask the INM rep that will be in Chapala on Friday, I thought marriage would be considered acceptable but only by proving marriage for at least 5 years. Maybe I am wrong on this. I guess maybe this is a payback for the US immigration rules being so difficult and confusing to someone in Mexico wishing to immigrate.


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## Infidel_jack

cscscs007 said:


> This marriage to a Mexican citizen issue would be an excellent question to ask the INM rep that will be in Chapala on Friday, I thought marriage would be considered acceptable but only by proving marriage for at least 5 years. Maybe I am wrong on this. I guess maybe this is a payback for the US immigration rules being so difficult and confusing to someone in Mexico wishing to immigrate.


There won't be any US immigration rules much longer.


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## circle110

Hey, let's not take this thread there. That's what the Chatarrería is for. This thread has a lot of useful information in it and has pretty much stayed right on topic so I'd hate to see it go astray.


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## conklinwh

circle110 said:


> That is interesting. I was a bit surprised when they told me today that my marriage didn't matter for INM any more. The course of action that the INM guy recommended to me was perfectly acceptable for our situation but it still strikes me as odd that INM would stop taking into account the fact that you are married to a citizen.


Two things:
-Seems that you were married in the US while person from the UK was married in Mexico. That may matter.
-We were told thast if we did multi-year visas that there were a whole string of items that had to be reported if changed. You might want to get that list.


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## circle110

conklinwh said:


> Two things:
> -Seems that you were married in the US while person from the UK was married in Mexico. That may matter.
> -We were told thast if we did multi-year visas that there were a whole string of items that had to be reported if changed. You might want to get that list.


He said it didn't matter where we were married, just that being married to a Mexican national plain isn't a factor for INM any more. If we have a child, I go immediately to "residente permanente" but matrimony alone doesn't affect things now, according to him.

Yes, getting that list sounds like a very good idea. Running afoul of INM just due to my own ignorance would be a bad idea.


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## cscscs007

Here is the list for in reference to this. Go to : www.inm.gob.mx/static/Tramites_LM/Autorizacion_Visas_LM/Visa_unidad_familiar.pdf and read the requirements that need to be met. 

Or go to Inicio - Instituto Nacional de Migración and on the right side click on Tramites Migratorios, then on the next page click on Autorizacion de Visas, and it will direct you to the above page.


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## circle110

cscscs007 said:


> Here is the list for in reference to this. Go to : www.inm.gob.mx/static/Tramites_LM/Autorizacion_Visas_LM/Visa_unidad_familiar.pdf and read the requirements that need to be met.
> 
> Or go to Inicio - Instituto Nacional de Migración and on the right side click on Tramites Migratorios, then on the next page click on Autorizacion de Visas, and it will direct you to the above page.


Thank you, cscscs007, but that is not what conklinwh was referring to.

He was referring to a list for people with multi-year visas of things that need to be reported to INM if they occur. Things like change of address etc., I imagine.

The page you linked to simply says that I could have used my marriage as a way of obtaining a "residente temporal". Since I already have my "no inmigrante", I am automatically grandfathered in as being eligible for "residente temporal" so I don't need to use my marriage for that purpose. 

Now, for someone who is married to a Mexican but doesn't meet the financial requirements, that article would be a godsend!

But, thank you!


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## TundraGreen

*Another take on changes*

There was a meeting held by INM (Migración) in Ajijic last week to discuss the new immigration laws. I don't live there but I made the trip down to listen anyway. I heard a few things I had not understood previously, so I thought I would relate them here. Some of the points I list here come from a sheet of paper that was distributed. They are supplemented by my interpretation of the discussion.

- Residents with FM in current status at the time of renewal will not need to meet these (the financial) requirements, these laws apply only to new residents entering Mexico from November 2012 and on. They cautioned us to not let the current status expire. If it does, you are treated as a new resident and subject to financial tests.

- Residents with current "imigrado" status will be converted to Permanent Residents with no documentation beyond the current imigrado card or booklet.

- Residents with imigrante (FM-2) or no-imigrante (FM-3) status will be converted to Temporary or Permanent Resident Status with no documentation beyond the current card.
If the card has not been renewed or is a 1st or 2nd renewal, as indicated by the Prorroga or Refrendo number on the back it will be converted to Temporary Resident. If the renewal number is a 3 or 4, it will convert to a Permanent Resident. It doesn't matter how long you have been here on other cards or in other status. All that matters is the current status and the number of renewals on it. 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
- Visitor 180 permit
Maximum stay of 180 days
With or without permit to work.
Visitors are allowed to make investments in debt instruments, stocks or bank deposits as well as purchase property without the need of authorization from immigration.
Visitors will not be allowed to change migratory status unless they are related to another foreigner with permanent residency or for humanitarian reasons.
They will have to leave the country once the 180 days has expired.
-------------------
- New Temporary Residents. Maximum stay of 4 years.
- Proof of investments of $1,295,200 pesos for the last 12 months.
OR
- Proof of pension or monthly income of $25,904 pesos for the last 6 months.
OR
- Property deed showing ownership of property with a value of $2,590,400 pesos.

Once the 4 years period has concluded, you must leave the country and reapply for a Temporary Residency Permit or Permanenta Residency Status at a Mexican Consulate closest to the city where you live in your country of origin.
-------------------
- Permanent Residents. Indefinite residency
- Proof of investments in the amount of $1,619,000 pesos for the last 12 months.
OR
- Proof of pension or monthly income of $32,380 pesos for the last 6 months.

Permanent Residency allows you to work without the need of authorization from Migración.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
As I understood the discussion and handout, if you meet the financial requirements you can obtain Permanent Resident status immediately with no need for a multi-year waiting period.

There was some discussion of autos but the speaker prefaced his comments with a disclaimer that it is not the responsibility of Migración. And since I don't have a car I did not stay for or follow the discussion closely.


----------



## Infidel_jack

*Thanks*

Tundra Green,
Thanks you for the information. It is great news for all of us that have current Visas,


----------



## TundraGreen

This is a scan of the page distributed at the meeting summarized in my post of a few minutes ago.


----------



## Isla Verde

Will, thanks for posting this very clear report of what happened at the meeting In Ajijic. I especially happy to learn that once you achieve RP status, you don't need permission from INM to work.


----------



## makaloco

Yes, thank you for the report. Always something new. It was clear earlier that Temporary Residents were required to exit the country after four years and reapply at a consulate if they wanted to continue as Temporary, but I hadn't realized this was the case if they were applying for Permanente. Ouch!


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## circle110

makaloco said:


> Yes, thank you for the report. Always something new. It was clear earlier that Temporary Residents were required to exit the country after four years and reapply at a consulate if they wanted to continue as Temporary, but I hadn't realized this was the case if they were applying for Permanente. Ouch!


According to what I was told (as well as the fellow before me) at the San Miguel office, your previous understanding is how they are operating: if you wish to get a fresh 4 years as a temporary, you need to leave the country and reapply at a Mexican consulate but if you wish to change to "residente permanente" at that time you could do that at an INM office here in Mexico. It'll be interesting to see how that is interpreted nationwide in the long run.


----------



## cuylers5746

*Mexican Visas*

I went into my INM Office last week here in Tepic, Nayarit. 

This is what I was told; 
If you have 4 years already on you FM-3 (Temporary Immigrant) you HAVE to apply for Residente Permanente Visa. Pay your $1000 m.n. up front then $3890 +- when accepted. Then don't come back as you're now a Residente Permanente.

Car Permit - totally up in the air still. Those that made the Law are still interpreting the Law as far as an American Registered Vehicle is concerned. Our nice clerk called over to Aduana and got some Supervisor and got that answer. I inferred it's a big decision for them in D.F. as I'm sure they don't want another "Chocolate" event to occur, be fair to us NOBs and also to their own citizens that are now trained in doing it right (importing cars).

This is what I inferred;
It looks like you might be Grandfathered in, as far as not having to meet any new Financial
Requirements going from an FM-3 to a Residente Permanente Visa.

I guess you can refuse the Residente Perminete Visa and leave the country and reapply at a
Mexican Consulate - but I don't know this for sure?


----------



## joaquinx

cuylers5746 said:


> I went into my INM Office last week here in Tepic, Nayarit.
> 
> This is what I was told;
> If you have 4 years already on you FM-3 (Temporary Immigrant) you HAVE to apply for Residente Permanente Visa. Pay your $1000 m.n. up front then $3890 +- when accepted. Then don't come back as you're now a Residente Permanente.
> 
> Car Permit - totally up in the air still. Those that made the Law are still interpreting the Law as far as an American Registered Vehicle is concerned. Our nice clerk called over to Aduana and got some Supervisor and got that answer. I inferred it's a big decision for them in D.F. as I'm sure they don't want another "Chocolate" event to occur, be fair to us NOBs and also to their own citizens that are now trained in doing it right (importing cars).
> 
> This is what I inferred;
> It looks like you might be Grandfathered in, as far as not having to meet any new Financial
> Requirements going from an FM-3 to a Residente Permanente Visa.
> 
> I guess you can refuse the Residente Perminete Visa and leave the country and reapply at a
> Mexican Consulate - but I don't know this for sure?


It's getting interesting. I had 5 years on a fm3 and one year on a fm2/Inmigrante and was told that since I did not pass the income test, I had to get a Temporal and hold it for 3 years before I could get a Permanente.


----------



## cuylers5746

*Look again - Look at this SEGOB Form Tundra Green Posted yesterday.*

Hey Joaquinx;

Read Tundra Green's post on this subject as of Yesterday, 07:53 PM.

He show's a copy of a SEGOB Form and at the bottom it clearly states.

..."Residents with FM in current status at time of renewal will not need to meet these requirements , these laws apply only to new residents entering Mexico from November 2012 and on."

New requirements meaning proven Income or monies invested in Properties in Mexico.

So, I'd find another clerk, or go to another INM Office in another City and apply for your Perminente Residente. Read that SEGOB Form, print it out and take it with you for your next visit to a INM Office for your new PR Visa.


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## RVGRINGO

All should know of this form and the bottom line, which applies to those residing here 5 years or more. Spread the word, as it seems many facilitators, attorneys and even INM local offices are unaware of this detail. The more it gets publicised, the harder it will be for local offices to act otherwise, or for facilitators to make applicants jump through unnecessary hoops.


----------



## joaquinx

cuylers5746 said:


> He show's a copy of a SEGOB Form and at the bottom it clearly states.
> 
> ..."Residents with FM in current status at time of renewal will not need to meet these requirements , these laws apply only to new residents entering Mexico from November 2012 and on."
> 
> New requirements meaning proven Income or monies invested in Properties in Mexico.
> 
> So, I'd find another clerk, or go to another INM Office in another City and apply for your Perminente Residente. Read that SEGOB Form, print it out and take it with you for your next visit to a INM Office for your new PR Visa.


What I would like to have is that from in Spanish and perhaps a web site where it might be located.

You really can't go to another city as they will just send you back to you city of residence. Another clerk would be the best, but that "form" in Spanish would be the "ace in the hole."

I just noticed that the form had the seal of the Lake Chapala Society. I guess that blessing makes it official.


----------



## cuylers5746

*FM > Residente Perminente Visa*

I'd suggest you contact Tudra Green, as he posted it up in English. He would probably 
remember where he saw in Spanish before he translated it.


----------



## TundraGreen

joaquinx said:


> It's getting interesting. I had 5 years on a fm3 and one year on a fm2/Inmigrante and was told that since I did not pass the income test, I had to get a Temporal and hold it for 3 years before I could get a Permanente.


What we were told quite clearly is that your entire history is irrelevant. All that counts is the time on your current card. Since you have only been inmigrante for 1 year you are eligible for conversion to residencia temporal. The prior time on an FM3 is irrelevant.

So your experience is consistent.


----------



## TundraGreen

cuylers5746 said:


> I'd suggest you contact Tundra Green, as he posted it up in English. He would probably
> remember where he saw in Spanish before he translated it.


The document I posted was distributed by the Lake Chapala Society. Someone there translated it, not I.

It is a summary of the new rules. The new rules themselves can be found in the original Spanish at:
Lineamientos-para-tramites-procedimientos-migratorios.pdf

Another version, maybe with better formatting is:
Ley de Migración | Mexico | Visasmex

Articulos 43 y 44 (pp 35-38) discuss the requirements for changing status to residente temporal or permanente. As discussed above, these apparently do not apply to current visa holders, just to people changing status. Current visa holders are grandfathered into the new system as either residente temporal or residente permanente.


----------



## joaquinx

TundraGreen said:


> What we were told quite clearly is that your entire history is irrelevant. All that counts is the time on your current card. Since you have only been inmigrante for 1 year you are eligible for conversion to residencia temporal. The prior time on an FM3 is irrelevant.
> 
> So your experience is consistent.


So because I have only one year on a Inmigrante, I have to go Temporal. Had I applied a year later for my original fm3/no inmigrante, I would go to Permanente because I would be carrying a No Inmigrante with a "4" on the reverse side.


----------



## TundraGreen

joaquinx said:


> So because I have only one year on a Inmigrante, I have to go Temporal. Had I applied a year later for my original fm3/no inmigrante, I would go to Permanente because I would be carrying a No Inmigrante with a "4" on the reverse side.


That's right. I am in the same boat. I had a no-imigrante for 2 years. Then, 3 years ago I changed to imigrante hoping to become imigrado after 5 years. But because I am only on my 2 renewal (3rd year) of my current status, I end up as residente temporal. 

If I had stayed on my no-imigrante visa, I would currently be in my 4th renewal (5th year) and they would converted me to residente permanente. And I would have saved the difference in costs for the past three years. Hind sight is wonderful.


----------



## joaquinx

TundraGreen said:


> That's right. I am in the same boat. I had a no-imigrante for 2 years. Then, 3 years ago I changed to imigrante hoping to become imigrado after 5 years. But because I am only on my 2 renewal (3rd year) of my current status, I end up as residente temporal.
> 
> If I had stayed on my no-imigrante visa, I would currently be in my 4th renewal (5th year) and they would converted me to residente permanente. And I would have saved the difference in costs for the past three years. Hind sight is wonderful.


Thanks. This clears up a whole lot of misinformation. Every now and then I have to remind myself that we have to deal with Mexican bureaucracy.


----------



## makaloco

TundraGreen said:


> That's right. I am in the same boat. I had a no-imigrante for 2 years. Then, 3 years ago I changed to imigrante hoping to become imigrado after 5 years. But because I am only on my 2 renewal (3rd year) of my current status, I end up as residente temporal.


A good friend of mine was in the same situation as TundraGreen, at the end of her third year on FM2/Inmigrante. Prior to that, she had something like 12 years on FM3. Same deal: she had to apply for Temporal for a year to complete her fourth year, then can apply for Permanente next time. So far, consistency for three people in different parts of the country, which I guess is a start!


----------



## circle110

Well, reading the link that TundraGreen provided, it clearly states that I should be able to change to "residente permanente" by way of "vínculo familiar" after 2 years as "residente temporal" based on the fact that I am a "cónyuge" of a Mexican citizen.

That contradicts what the official told me last week, but is in accordance with what the other official told me last December. 

If they go by what it says in the law (and what the guy told me in December), I should only pay for 1 more year as temporal and then I will be able to become permanente -- as opposed to paying for 3 years as temporal like the guy told me last week.

I guess I'll have to see what they say come Feb. 7th when I go to actually start the renewal process.


----------



## AlanMexicali

I recieved my 2 year Residente Temporal card. Vinculo Familiar.
Just a couple of days over 2 months since I started the process. They said to come in sometime after a year and have a chat with them. Alan


----------



## Infidel_jack

cuylers5746 said:


> I went into my INM Office last week here in Tepic, Nayarit.
> 
> This is what I was told;
> If you have 4 years already on you FM-3 (Temporary Immigrant) you HAVE to apply for Residente Permanente Visa. Pay your $1000 m.n. up front then $3890 +- when accepted. Then don't come back as you're now a Residente Permanente.
> 
> Car Permit - totally up in the air still. Those that made the Law are still interpreting the Law as far as an American Registered Vehicle is concerned. Our nice clerk called over to Aduana and got some Supervisor and got that answer. I inferred it's a big decision for them in D.F. as I'm sure they don't want another "Chocolate" event to occur, be fair to us NOBs and also to their own citizens that are now trained in doing it right (importing cars).
> 
> This is what I inferred;
> It looks like you might be Grandfathered in, as far as not having to meet any new Financial
> Requirements going from an FM-3 to a Residente Permanente Visa.
> 
> I guess you can refuse the Residente Perminete Visa and leave the country and reapply at a
> Mexican Consulate - but I don't know this for sure?


If you have had a vehicle here and decide you want a new car or later model used vehicle can you trade yours at a Mexican dealership and forget the hassle of registering a foreign vehicle?


----------



## circle110

Infidel_jack said:


> If you have had a vehicle here and decide you want a new car or later model used vehicle can you trade yours at a Mexican dealership and forget the hassle of registering a foreign vehicle?


Definitely not. All US vehicles must return to the US or else be nationalized and can't be sold or traded in Mexico.


----------



## circle110

AlanMexicali said:


> I recieved my 2 year Residente Temporal card. Vinculo Familiar.
> Just a couple of days over 2 months since I started the process. They said to come in sometime after a year and have a chat with them. Alan


Alan, did you already have any porrogas on a no-inmigrante or was this your first non-tourist visa?


----------



## AlanMexicali

circle110 said:


> Alan, did you already have any porrogas on a no-inmigrante or was this your first non-tourist visa?


Tramite from another current FMM I had to RT inside Mexico. First "real" visa.


----------



## circle110

AlanMexicali said:


> Tramite from another current FMM I had to RT inside Mexico. First "real" visa.


That makes sense and is consistent with what the new law says. It was nice that you were able to do the tramite here in Mexico without having to return NOB.

Since I have one year already, I should be able to get a 1 year residente temporal and then convert to permanente next March. Hopefully the fellows at SMA will come to interpret it that way before February 7 when I start my renewal. We'll see.


----------



## conklinwh

circle110 said:


> That makes sense and is consistent with what the new law says. It was nice that you were able to do the tramite here in Mexico without having to return NOB.
> 
> Since I have one year already, I should be able to get a 1 year residente temporal and then convert to permanente next March. Hopefully the fellows at SMA will come to interpret it that way before February 7 when I start my renewal. We'll see.


We had this discussion with INM in San Miguel. They were quite willing to convert no immigrant to permanente with no financials if the 4th or 5th renewal. Since this was our 1st renewal we would have to prove the financials for permanente. In addition even though the law clearly says can achieve via income, financial assets or Mexican property, they would only discuss income and that included a 2nd level discussion. In addition the income needed to be on 6 monthly statements, translated, and accompanied by source of the income with the applicant clearly shown.
My plan had been to have me stay on Temporal with the US plated car and move my wife to Permanente as properties in her name. Our issue was that I'm retired on a pension but my wife owned her own business. When she sold her business we invested the funds and don't touch them so no income. She easily would qualify via assets or Mexican property but they wouldn't listen. We just went for two Temporals.
My net & only one person view is that they are making it hard to convert no immigrante to Permanente less than 4th renewal. Not an issue after that but be careful of US plated car. Aduana told me no problem with US plated car with Temporal but much more tricky with Permanente.


----------



## gnovi

Thank you to *TundraGreen* for the expanded details!

One thing I've been trying to figure out with the financial requirements (as a new resident), is for the monthly income requirements for the last 6 months, are you just showing that you made that at minimum for the last 6 months (in my case, via my US paychecks), and not that it is assumed you will still have that monthly income on moving into Mexico? If that is true I should probably be able to apply for Permanente depending and that would be a huge sigh of relief. Just as long as you're not supposed to prove you'll be making the same minimum income requirements after gaining residency... Any clarification on that would be greatly appreciated!


----------



## amarcilese

Hello Everyone,
My name is Annelie and I am a new extranjero in Merida with my boyfriend Adrian. We have been here for three weeks and could use some sound advice!

In particular, we would like to get work visas and extended stay visas allowing us to stay past the 180 days. 

A little about us. We are US citizens, with no income for quite some time, but about $2000 in our pockets. Adrian is of Mexican descent, by way of grandmother, but are estranged from each other.

Adrian has a potential job offer, pending he get a work visa. 

Also, we signed a one month rental contract.

We want to go about this the proper way and get all the documents necessary. 

Questions:
Do we stand a chance in getting these docs?
Can we do it from within Mex?
Shoud we hire a immigration lawyer?

Thanks! Any info will help!

Annelie and Adrian


----------



## Isla Verde

amarcilese said:


> Hello Everyone,
> My name is Annelie and I am a new extranjero in Merida with my boyfriend Adrian. We have been here for three weeks and could use some sound advice!
> 
> In particular, we would like to get work visas and extended stay visas allowing us to stay past the 180 days.
> 
> A little about us. We are US citizens, with no income for quite some time, but about $2000 in our pockets. Adrian is of Mexican descent, by way of grandmother, but are estranged from each other.
> 
> Adrian has a potential job offer, pending he get a work visa.
> 
> Also, we signed a one month rental contract.
> 
> We want to go about this the proper way and get all the documents necessary.
> 
> Questions:
> Do we stand a chance in getting these docs?
> Can we do it from within Mex?
> Shoud we hire a immigration lawyer?
> 
> Thanks! Any info will help!
> 
> Annelie and Adrian


As things stand now, both of you would have to leave Mexico and apply for work visas back in the States. I would recommend talking to a good immigration lawyer to see if there are other possibilities. Good luck to both of you!


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## amarcilese

Thank You, Isla Verde.


----------



## Isla Verde

You're welcome!


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## rogermnc

There is a possibility to start your own business here. You have to show at least $3000 USD in your account (could be foreign) and have a business plan. I did this and get my first FM3. It's better to go with some good immigration lawyer so they can tell you step-by-step info.


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## leader1968

I don't get it? Do all the rules have to reply? For instance not everyone owns a home in Mexico. Does owning one preclude you from having to fulfil another requirement? Also, a home worth $195,000 in the US? What part of the USA? I own a home in Mexico which in Alabama might be worth $100,000 and be worth a half million in New York. How does that figure?


----------



## Hound Dog

_


leader1968 said:



I don't get it? Do all the rules have to reply? For instance not everyone owns a home in Mexico. Does owning one preclude you from having to fulfil another requirement? Also, a home worth $195,000 in the US? What part of the USA? I own a home in Mexico which in Alabama might be worth $100,000 and be worth a half million in New York. How does that figure?

Click to expand...

_Forget what that home might be worth in Alabama or New York. Also remember that your home in exclusive parts of Mexico City is far more valuable than a home in, shall we say, rural Oaxaca State. A home in Mexico is worth what somebody says it´s worth. Don´t lose sleep over this. Pay somebody a few pesos and your problems are resolved. This is Mexico where everything is worth what you are willing to pay someone to say it s worth. You must be new here.


----------



## leader1968

*I am new here*

Been here one year. Live in Patzcuaro. The Officials in Morelia seem to take their job seriously. Just got my second FM3 in October. Guess I fell into the old rules. The only folks I've paid off so far are the cops in Nueva Laredo. But, I am lucky in that I got my second visa before the changes took effect. By next year, the laws will probably be different anyway, right? Why worry, be happy!


----------



## TundraGreen

leader1968 said:


> I don't get it? Do all the rules have to reply? For instance not everyone owns a home in Mexico. Does owning one preclude you from having to fulfill another requirement? Also, a home worth $195,000 in the US? What part of the USA? I own a home in Mexico which in Alabama might be worth $100,000 and be worth a half million in New York. How does that figure?


The rules for Residente Temporal state that one way to qualify is to own a property in Mexico worth $2,590,400 mxn which = $207,232 usd at an exchange rate of 12.5. If you meet this qualification, it is not necessary to meet an income or asset qualification. It does not matter what the house might cost in any other location, Mexico or the US. What matters is the value shown on the Escritura, the deed. The property can be held outright or through a fideicomisario such as is required near the coasts and borders.

Article 41. Para. 4.d. 
LINEAMIENTOS PARA TRAMITES Y PROCEDIMIENTOS MIGRATORIOS
Jueves 8 de noviembre de 2012

Incidentally, all of the monetary limits in the immigration rules are in units of the minimum daily wage in Mexico City. Currently (2012) that is $64.76 mxn/day. So for example the property requirement is actually for property with an Escritura value of 40,000 "días de salario mínimo general vigente en el Distrito Federal".


----------



## TundraGreen

leader1968 said:


> Been here one year. Live in Patzcuaro. The Officials in Morelia seem to take their job seriously. Just got my second FM3 in October. Guess I fell into the old rules. The only folks I've paid off so far are the cops in Nueva Laredo. But, I am lucky in that I got my second visa before the changes took effect. By next year, the laws will probably be different anyway, right? Why worry, be happy!


The new rules took effect on November 8th, 2012, so you would indeed have fallen under the old rules. Does it really say "FM-3" on the card? My guess is that it says "No Inmigrante".


----------



## conklinwh

TundraGreen said:


> The rules for Residente Temporal state that one way to qualify is to own a property in Mexico worth $2,590,400 mxn which = $207,232 usd at an exchange rate of 12.5. If you meet this qualification, it is not necessary to meet an income or asset qualification. It does not matter what the house might cost in any other location, Mexico or the US. What matters is the value shown on the Escritura, the deed. The property can be held outright or through a fideicomisario such as is required near the coasts and borders.
> 
> Article 41. Para. 4.d.
> LINEAMIENTOS PARA TRAMITES Y PROCEDIMIENTOS MIGRATORIOS
> Jueves 8 de noviembre de 2012
> 
> Incidentally, all of the monetary limits in the immigration rules are in units of the minimum daily wage in Mexico City. Currently (2012) that is $64.76 mxn/day. So for example the property requirement is actually for property with an Escritura value of 40,000 "días de salario mínimo general vigente en el Distrito Federal".


We tried unsuccessfully in San Miguel to have them take property or assets versus income(BTW, the property or assets must be in Mexico) as we wanted to move my wife from no inmigrante to permanente short of 4th renewal. We finally gave up and just converted to temporal.
I had meeting with a lawyer on another matter and asked him. He agreed that was how San Miguel INM was implementing but also said that he was fighting on behalf of two clients to be able to use Mexican property.
I did have a good experience yesterday as was concerned about driving without visa and with expired permiso. I was stopped by the police and as Aduana and INM had said, the copy that I had of the visa submission form along with driver's license and passport worked fine.
Do have an update on the time process. We were called by facilitator to come to immigration two weeks after submission of our forms and thought it was to get visas. No such luck. It seems that INM takes two weeks locally to review and approve paperwork. Then you must go in, sign some other forms and do fingerprints. These then sent to DF and are expected to return in about 3 weeks.


----------



## kcowan

We started the process on Dec 10th (FM3s expiring next day) and are now awaiting our Permanent visas. Christmas and increased volumes seem to be causing delays. We did not use a handler. Total cost is 5110 pesos each including copying costs.


----------



## TundraGreen

kcowan said:


> We started the process on Dec 10th (FM3s expiring next day) and are now awaiting our Permanent visas. Christmas and increased volumes seem to be causing delays. We did not use a handler. Total cost is 5110 pesos each including copying costs.


I guess I should stop checking the web for progress every day. I started the process of conversion to Permanent on January 23rd. After my experience the last couple of years, I thought it would only take a few days.

I am curious how your total got up to $5110 pesos. I have paid $1000 for the conversion and expect to pay $3815 more for the Residente Permanente visa. That adds up to about $300 less than you paid. That sounds like a lot of copying costs. Am I missing something? Maybe photos. I have some photos left over so I won't need those but even photos are only a little under $100 pesos.


----------



## leader1968

You are correct, it says non inmigrante.


----------



## leader1968

My house in Patzcuaro is under construction and almost done. How will the value be ascertained in that situation?


----------



## leader1968

You might just go into the office and check. I checked the internet sit for about 2 weeks and my application had disappeared from the site. Very worried, I went to the office in Morelia and the applciation had already been approved and I received my visa.


----------



## Zepol87

Ok guys called a lawyer today but they couldn't really give me any info they said they would get back me on Tuesday. Wife and I are married in Texas she's a Mexican citizen she has a job in Monterrey and I have been teaching English here. What are our options? Thanks in advance


----------



## kcowan

TundraGreen said:


> I guess I should stop checking the web for progress every day. I started the process of conversion to Permanent on January 23rd. After my experience the last couple of years, I thought it would only take a few days.
> 
> I am curious how your total got up to $5110 pesos. I have paid $1000 for the conversion and expect to pay $3815 more for the Residente Permanente visa. That adds up to about $300 less than you paid. That sounds like a lot of copying costs. Am I missing something? Maybe photos. I have some photos left over so I won't need those but even photos are only a little under $100 pesos.


The recommended photo shop charged 160 pesos, about 135 pesos extra. We went to a local shop for help and copying because we live a long way from the office (120 pesos). And I used 3850 so an extra 35 pesos there.


----------



## 1happykamper

Help!! 

I was in the Mazatlan immigration office November 2012 and swapped my consul Mexican Visa for the resident card application. Back then I was offered to pay for 1 ,2,3, or 4 years of residency. I ipad for four. TEN weeks later I am told they made a mistake and that only ONE year can be offered initially.

My trust in this office is fading fast. Can anyone please cite the law ..or point me to to the page in the rules handbook in the regard... Thanks so much.


----------



## TundraGreen

1happykamper said:


> Help!!
> 
> I was in the Mazatlan immigration office November 2012 and swapped my consul Mexican Visa for the resident card application. Back then I was offered to pay for 1 ,2,3, or 4 years of residency. I ipad for four. TEN weeks later I am told they made a mistake and that only ONE year can be offered initially.
> 
> My trust in this office is fading fast. Can anyone please cite the law ..or point me to to the page in the rules handbook in the regard... Thanks so much.


http://www.inm.gob.mx/static/Tramites_LM/Estancia_LM/Expedicion_de_doc_Migratorio/Expedicion_de_doc_migratorio_por_renovacion.pdf

http://www.diputados.gob.mx/LeyesBiblio/pdf/107.pdf


----------



## 1happykamper

Thanks Tundra!


----------



## TundraGreen

1happykamper said:


> Thanks Tundra!


You are very welcome.


----------



## Ulev

*New Non Inmigrante/old FM-3*

I renewed my FM-3 just after the new law passed in Nov. 2012.
I finally rec'd the now 'non inmigrante' status by courier several weeks later in 2013, back in the States.
Is the time 'in residence' while in MX counted toward one's qualification for 'permenante' status ? :juggle:


----------



## TundraGreen

Ulev said:


> I renewed my FM-3 just after the new law passed in Nov. 2012.
> I finally rec'd the now 'non inmigrante' status by courier several weeks later in 2013, back in the States.
> Is the time 'in residence' while in MX counted toward one's qualification for 'permenante' status ? :juggle:


It sounds like you were given a visa under the old system (no inmigrante no longer exists). As I understand the rules, when you renew in a year, you will be given a Residente Temporal. After four years as a Residente Temporal, you will have to leave the country and apply for a new Residente Temporal or a Residente Permananente at a Mexican consulate in your home country. 

I do not know if this year as a no inmigrante will count as part of that four years. If you have sufficient income, you can apply to change your status and become Residente Permanente anytime if you so desire.


----------



## buzzbar

*6 mths income*



> [One thing I've been trying to figure out with the financial requirements (as a new resident), is for the monthly income requirements for the last 6 months, are you just showing that you made that at minimum for the last 6 months (in my case, via my US paychecks), and not that it is assumed you will still have that monthly income on moving into Mexico? If that is true I should probably be able to apply for Permanente depending and that would be a huge sigh of relief. Just as long as you're not supposed to prove you'll be making the same minimum income requirements after gaining residency... Any clarification on that would be greatly appreciated!


I'm surprised this hasn't been answered - pretty fundamental issue that would have an impact on the plans of many people considering applying for residence. Anything to report from the poster? Anyone else have information?


----------



## TundraGreen

buzzbar said:


> I'm surprised this hasn't been answered - pretty fundamental issue that would have an impact on the plans of many people considering applying for residence. Anything to report from the poster? Anyone else have information?


You have to demonstrate that the income is regular over the past 6 months. INM assumes that it will continue. You do not have to prove it.


----------



## kcowan

TundraGreen said:


> After four years as a Residente Temporal, you will have to leave the country and apply for a new Residente Temporal or a Residente Permananente at a Mexican consulate in your home country...


There is no need to leave when going from Temporal to Permanente and. although it says you must leave to reapply for 4 more years as temporary, the INM agent offered that we could do it by just paying a fine. We decided to go Permanente. We will deal with the car when their practice becomes clear.


----------



## Joycee

At the Puebla immigration office, I only had to provide one month's bank statement.


----------



## conklinwh

Joycee said:


> At the Puebla immigration office, I only had to provide one month's bank statement.


I think that it has to do with what you are trying to accomplish. This would have been our 1st renewal of no inmigrante. We could go to temporal with no bank statements or try to prove income for permanente. The latter required 6 mo of translated bank statements plus documentation of the source of income(San Miguel was not accepting assets or Mexican property options) with the applicants name, not joint. I was told that if this was our 4th renewal, we would have been moved to permanente.
Be very careful with permanente and US licensed car. I've been given quite different answers from lawyers and Aduana.


----------



## Ulev

TundraGreen said:


> It sounds like you were given a visa under the old system (no inmigrante no longer exists). As I understand the rules, when you renew in a year, you will be given a Residente Temporal. After four years as a Residente Temporal, you will have to leave the country and apply for a new Residente Temporal or a Residente Permananente at a Mexican consulate in your home country.
> 
> I do not know if this year as a no inmigrante will count as part of that four years. If you have sufficient income, you can apply to change your status and become Residente Permanente anytime if you so desire.


Thank you for your response.
As a 'newbie' on this board I erred in the facts, SORRY
I actually received a two year Residente Temporal, after two years as a 
No INMIGRANTE. Now my question is did my two years as a no INMIGRANTE
Qualify, together with two years of Residente Temporal for a Residente Permenente ?
Or Can I change to Permenemte at a specific time only ?
Thanks again


----------



## AlanMexicali

Ulev said:


> Thank you for your response.
> As a 'newbie' on this board I erred in the facts, SORRY
> I actually received a two year Residente Temporal, after two years as a
> No INMIGRANTE. Now my question is did my two years as a no INMIGRANTE
> Qualify, together with two years of Residente Temporal for a Residente Permenente ?
> Or Can I change to Permenemte at a specific time only ?
> Thanks again


The way I understand it is RV mentioned after 4 years on a new Residente Temporal you will have to leave and apply at a Mexican consulate if you want to remain Residente Temporal with financials required. That is correct, however, he also mentioned you will have to leave the country after 4 years on a Residente Temporal to apply if you want to become a Residente Permanente, that is not correct [with no financials required]. You can apply inside Mexico with no financials required.

I also understand that if you now have a 2 year Residente temporal card you will need to renew it in 2 years for another 2 years before you can apply for a Residente Permanente, inside Mexico, with no financials required. Your 2 years on the old non inmigrado does not count towards you going to Residente Permanente without financials required.

With financials you can tramite inside Mexico to Residente Permanenete at any time from Residente Temporal. Alan


----------



## Ulev

Thanks Alan !
Since I do 'own' a home in MX would that suffice in terms
Of financial ?
If not, what are the new financial parameters ?
Thx


----------



## kcowan

My understanding is that 4 years of FM3 or equivalent is required before getting your Permanente (that was our case). So with 2 years, you needed 2 more years and then go Permanente (this was my friends' case). At least that is the way INM in PV is doing it. No more financials and no need to leave the country.


----------



## circle110

AlanMexicali said:


> The way I understand it is RV mentioned after 4 years on a new Residente Temporal you will have to leave and apply at a Mexican consulate if you want to remain Residente Temporal with financials required. That is correct, however, he also mentioned you will have to leave the country after 4 years on a Residente Temporal to apply if you want to become a Residente Permanente, that is not correct [with no financials required]. You can apply inside Mexico with no financials required.
> 
> I also understand that if you now have a 2 year Residente temporal card you will need to renew it in 2 years for another 2 years before you can apply for a Residente Permanente, inside Mexico, with no financials required. Your 2 years on the old non inmigrado does not count towards you going to Residente Permanente without financials required.
> 
> With financials you can tramite inside Mexico to Residente Permanenete at any time from Residente Temporal. Alan


Alan, I agree. This is how I understood it too when I asked at the San Miguel office.


An interesting case study:

A friend of mine here in Guanajuato goofed up big time - he let his no-inmigrante visa that he had had for 4 years expire by two days before he went to INM in San Miguel! He was ready to convert to residente permanente but he let his visa expire, I guess due to a space out.

INM in San Miguel gave him an FMM so he would be temporarily legal and told him that he had to return to the US ASAP to sort out the problem. He flew to Houston and the Mexican consulate there ended up giving him credit for his 4 years as no-inmigrante (even though he had let it expire) and they did the pre-processing for his residente permanente. He has now returned to Mexico and INM in San Miguel has finished processing his permanent visa.

He got lucky, but it did cost him a round trip flight to Houston and a couple nights in a hotel to get things sorted out.


----------



## Isla Verde

circle110 said:


> Alan, I agree. This is how I understood it too when I asked at the San Miguel office.
> 
> 
> An interesting case study:
> 
> A friend of mine here in Guanajuato goofed up big time - he let his no-inmigrante visa that he had had for 4 years expire by two days before he went to INM in San Miguel! He was ready to convert to residente permanente but he let his visa expire, I guess due to a space out.
> 
> INM in San Miguel gave him an FMM so he would be temporarily legal and told him that he had to return to the US ASAP to sort out the problem. He flew to Houston and the Mexican consulate there ended up giving him credit for his 4 years as no-inmigrante (even though he had let it expire) and they did the pre-processing for his residente permanente. He has now returned to Mexico and INM in San Miguel has finished processing his permanent visa.
> 
> He got lucky, but it did cost him a round trip flight to Houston and a couple nights in a hotel to get things sorted out.


Your friend was lucky, though it did cost him big bucks to straighten everything out. I have a different attitude than your friend did about when to visit INM to take care of business. My No Inmigrante card expires in May, and I'm wondering right now if I should go to Migración in April or even March to begin the trámites for my RP card.


----------



## circle110

Isla Verde said:


> Your friend was lucky, though it did cost him big bucks to straighten everything out. I have a different attitude than your friend did about when to visit INM to take care of business. My No Inmigrante card expires in May, and I'm wondering right now if I should go to Migración in April or even March to begin the trámites for my RP card.


I don't know if it is different in DF but in San Miguel you can't start the process until 30 days before your visa expires. I am going to start mine on Wednesday.


----------



## kcowan

Isla Verde said:


> My No Inmigrante card expires in May, and I'm wondering right now if I should go to Migración in April or even March to begin the trámites for my RP card.


They say no sooner than 30 days before expiry. But they might be more flexible by then given how frigging long they have been taking.

I started on Dec 10th, 1 day before expiry, and I am still waiting. Granted I introduced a week in that process for my convenience, but still no Permanente...


----------



## Isla Verde

circle110 said:


> I don't know if it is different in DF but in San Miguel you can't start the process until 30 days before your visa expires. I am going to start mine on Wednesday.


That's my understanding too, that I should go in just a month before the expiration date, which is how it's always been in Mexico City. Perhaps a visit this week to INM should help to clarify the topic.


----------



## TundraGreen

Isla Verde said:


> That's my understanding too, that I should go in just a month before the expiration date, which is how it's always been in Mexico City. Perhaps a visit this week to INM should help to clarify the topic.


It is 30 working days before expiration so more like 6 weeks.

Last year I wanted to travel about the time my visa renewal came up so I went in at a time that I thought was early and they told me it was within the time frame.


----------



## sag42

We now have over two months waiting for a Residente Temporal for my daughter here in Veracruz. They need to get their act together and get this NEW Immigration policy straightened-out. This is not good. When you have to wait over two months for a one year visa it doesn't give one a lot of confidence in Mexican Immigration.


----------



## Isla Verde

TundraGreen said:


> It is 30 working days before expiration so more like 6 weeks.
> 
> Last year I wanted to travel about the time my visa renewal came up so I went in at a time that I thought was early and they told me it was within the time frame.


Thanks for that clarification, TG.


----------



## kcowan

Yes thanks TG. I have a friend who is leaving the country so that tip might save him the 320 peso fee for a special letter.


----------



## TundraGreen

You are both welcome. That was the interpretation at INM Guadalajara last year. It might vary depending on the office or mood of the official.


----------



## Isla Verde

TundraGreen said:


> You are both welcome. That was the interpretation at INM Guadalajara last year. It might vary depending on the office or mood of the official.


Indeed! Which is why I'm going to shlep over to my local INM office tomorrow to get the scoop, DF style.


----------



## DNP

Isla Verde said:


> Not yet. In Mexico nothing much happens over the Christmas holiday season anyway. I have read that the point system may be published sometime in January. Thinking happy thoughts - recommended -- holding your breath - not!


Hi, isla. 

I've been outta touch for a while, but looking forward to a return via DF like last time. Will keep you posted.

Darryl

WashDC/SMA


----------



## dongringo

How the hell can a casual reader make sense of this thread? Where is the editor?


----------



## RVGRINGO

It shlepped, whatever that means.


----------



## mickisue1

schlep 
/SHlep/
Verb
Haul or carry (something heavy or awkward).
Noun
A tedious or difficult journey.
Synonyms
lug

In this case: a tedious or difficult journey.

Gotta love Yiddish!


----------



## soulfish

*where do we stand*

So where do we stand.


I am Canadian
My wife was born in Mexico and moved to Canada when she was 15.
She became a Canadian Citizen when she was 30.
We have a 8 year old child and one on the way.

We are planning on moving to Mexico within 2 years.
No pensions here.. we are both self employed and 37 years old.
95000.00 in the bank..... nope


----------



## cuylers5746

*I stand by my earlier statements*

Hi all;

I got my Visa back today at INM; Visa, "Residente Perminente", or Green Card as I like to call it. Hey unlike in the USA where it's Blue in color now. The Mexican version really is green. I was a little disappointed that after 4 weeks since starting the process and all the hellabalou involved and around $5,000 m.n. from start to finish that there isn't even a Sombrero or Agave symbol on
it. Would be more rewarding with those on it don't you think?

Yea, they Grandfathered so much of us in - those with outstanding Visa's prior to Nov 8th 2012 which was good, but I feel for those new wanting to retire down here just the same. 

See my previous posts on this. I think I was pretty much right on the target considering this subject.
And, "...Mexico is a country run on so much common sense (compared to some other countries), that I don't think these provisions will prevail. But it might take a little time for heads in Government to wake up?

Ans: I think they partially woke up as suggested early on in this discussion by AlanMexicali but not fully. Besides throwing anyone new or let a Visa lapse before Nov. 8th 2012 out with the bath water - I feel strongly they've also thrown 80% of the Banks in Mexico out with the bath water too.
All those hundreds of thousands of empty condos in almost every resort along both coasts that are now back owned by the banks. Mexico just excluded probably 80% of those wanting to retire here do to their dumb, dumb and dumber income requirements - especially one size fits all. 

I look for Mexico to take a real hit on the International Lists of "Best Places Overseas to Retire".
Hey, but then again this El Presidente inherited all this from Calderon's Boys in Los Pinos. Hopefully somewhere down the line some common sense will prevail?

I'll post up what I've heard about now what to do with your Foreign Registered car in another post. Basically "Aduana" is way behind the curve here considering the changes done by INM? But if you read all the old Articles in the 7" thick Law of Aduana you'll see that maybe it's a god send. Actually INM had no real say about vehicles here in Mexico - it's Aduana's call and it appears the law is set in stone - so far?


----------



## TundraGreen

cuylers5746 said:


> Hi all;
> 
> I got my Visa back today at INM; Visa, "Residente Perminente", or Green Card as I like to call it. Hey unlike in the USA where it's Blue in color now. The Mexican version really is green. I was a little disappointed that after 4 weeks since starting the process and all the hellabalou involved and around $5,000 m.n. from start to finish that there isn't even a Sombrero or Agave symbol on
> it. Would be more rewarding with those on it don't you think? …


What day did you start? I started on 23 Jan and am still waiting. I was registered and assigned on the 23rd, then classified on the 15th of Feb.


----------



## cuylers5746

*Where do you stand?*

Hi Soulfish;

After being several times in the INM Office this last month concerning getting my Residente Perminete Visa I learned several things that should benefit you.

1.) Your wife can reclaim her Mexican Citizenship - and indeed keep dual Citizenship with Canada.
This might be just as easy as showing her Birth Certificate and apply for a Mexican Passport?

2.) Once done, she can immediately take your 8 year old's Birth Certificate (even though it's from
Canada) and Register him here in Mexico and he too will be able to get a Mexican Passport
signifying Citizenship. Just take it in to INM and they'll help you with this.

3.) Same goes for your newborn regardless of where it's born.

4.) Your husband on the other hand has a problem. You'll have to meet income requirements for 
him or keep him on a Tourist Visa and he has to do the two step turn around at the border 
twice a year. Or, you can plan ahead and move Bank Accounts into his name solely to show 
income or total amount in the Bank Account six months to moving down here. They'll ask for
those 6 months of Bank Statements when he applies.

At least that's my 2 pesos worth on the subject. Others might now more?


----------



## cuylers5746

*Green Card Waiting Process*

Hi Tundra Green;

I started on Jan 24th 2012, I was classified by local office about 3 weeks ago.
So it should only be a couple of days more and you'll get it back. Not to worry
Mate, as they say. 

The love fest still goes on at our INM Office here. I told the gal's I'll probably stop
in once a year just to say hello and get caught up on them - they smilled. They
also told me that they're so backed up in D.F. that it's taking longer than they thought
D.F. seems to be releasing these Visa's in bunches back to your local INM office. At
least that's my take on it.

You don't like my comment about a symbol of a Sombrero or an Agave plant on the
Green Card? There's plenty of room on the new Green Cards.

Good luck.


----------



## TundraGreen

cuylers5746 said:


> Hi Tundra Green;
> 
> I started on Jan 24th 2012, I was classified by local office about 3 weeks ago.
> So it should only be a couple of days more and you'll get it back. Not to worry
> Mate, as they say.
> 
> The love fest still goes on at our INM Office here. I told the gal's I'll probably stop
> in once a year just to say hello and get caught up on them - they smilled. They
> also told me that they're so backed up in D.F. that it's taking longer than they thought
> D.F. seems to be releasing these Visa's in bunches back to your local INM office. At
> least that's my take on it.
> 
> You don't like my comment about a symbol of a Sombrero or an Agave plant on the
> Green Card? There's plenty of room on the new Green Cards.
> 
> Good luck.


Thanks. I will continue to wait patiently. An agave plant would be nice.


----------



## mickisue1

soulfish said:


> So where do we stand.
> 
> 
> I am Canadian
> My wife was born in Mexico and moved to Canada when she was 15.
> She became a Canadian Citizen when she was 30.
> We have a 8 year old child and one on the way.
> 
> We are planning on moving to Mexico within 2 years.
> No pensions here.. we are both self employed and 37 years old.
> 95000.00 in the bank..... nope


Check to see if she maintained her Mexican citizenship when she became a Canadian. That would seem to be step one.


----------



## cuylers5746

*Ever hear of a Mexican renouncing their Citizenship?*

Hi MickieSue;

I have never heard of a Mexican renouncing their Citizenship. They always seem to have at the back of their mind some time in the future returning to Mexico. Hey, and why not?


----------



## AlanMexicali

cuylers5746 said:


> Hi MickieSue;
> 
> I have never heard of a Mexican renouncing their Citizenship. They always seem to have at the back of their mind some time in the future returning to Mexico. Hey, and why not?


Technically when you become a citizen of the US, I don´t know about Canada, at the swearing in ceremony the judge has you renounce your former country´s citizenship and pledge allegence to the USA.

That being done in the 80´s when my ex wife, a Mexican, did it the instruction was to go to a Mexican Consulate and fill out a free form to have your Mexican citizenship reinstated or I guess the SEGOB office in Mexico. That was the old agreement as dual citizenship for the USA was a touchy subject back then. 

Now I think there is no longer any form needed to be filled out and it is an unwritten agreement you still retain your Mexican citizenship. I could be wrong, of course.


----------



## circle110

I don't know how it was in the past (nor how it is in Canada) but today the US and Mexico both recognize dual citizenship with each other. When one accepts citizenship in either country you are not required to renounce your citizenship in the other.


----------



## maesonna

Canada has allowed dual citizenship since 1977. In fact Canada allows not only dual, but multiple citizenship. So, no problem from the Canadian side.

Mexico did not allow dual nationality until 1998. Until then, to acquire Mexican nationality, you had to renounce any other nationality. When dual nationality was enabled for people entitled to Mexican nationality, it was put in place specifically so that US citizens with a right to Mexican nationality could, for the first time, claim their Mexican nationality without having to renounce their US citizenship. 

That was the intention of the 1998 dual nationality law. However, in practice, it means that foreigners from other countries can acquire Mexican nationality without having to renounce their other nationality (if the other nation so permits).


----------



## Infidel_jack

soulfish said:


> So where do we stand.
> 
> 
> I am Canadian
> My wife was born in Mexico and moved to Canada when she was 15.
> She became a Canadian Citizen when she was 30.
> We have a 8 year old child and one on the way.
> 
> We are planning on moving to Mexico within 2 years.
> No pensions here.. we are both self employed and 37 years old.
> 95000.00 in the bank..... nope


Your wife is a citizen. I think you are home free. Go to the nearest consulate and get the real information.


----------



## circle110

Infidel_jack said:


> Your wife is a citizen. I think you are home free. Go to the nearest consulate and get the real information.


Those of us with Mexican spouses wish it were as "home free" as you seem to think it is. Unfortunately, it isn't quite so simple.

If your spouse is a Mexican citizen and you don't have a current visa, you can apply for "residente temporal por unidad familiar". That is good because you now don't need the financial proof like for a "residente temporal rentista". After two years renewing as a "residente temporal por unidad familiar", you can change directly to "residente permanente" and then (only after paying several thousand pesos) are you "home free".

But anyway, the advice to get the official word from the consulate is wise.


----------



## johnmex

circle110 said:


> Those of us with Mexican spouses wish it were as "home free" as you seem to think it is. Unfortunately, it isn't quite so simple.


A Mexican spouse is not a free ticket. Dependent Mexican children are a whole different can of worms....


----------



## circle110

johnmex said:


> A Mexican spouse is not a free ticket. Dependent Mexican children are a whole different can of worms....


Yes, the dependent child is a "free ride" directly to residente permanente. And rightfully so.


----------



## soulfish

So I just need to file paper work and pay fees for a few years, that's great news.
I was starting to stress out on how I would come up with a hundred thousand to stick in the bank....

Thanks for the info.


----------



## johnmex

soulfish said:


> So I just need to file paper work and pay fees for a few years, that's great news.
> I was starting to stress out on how I would come up with a hundred thousand to stick in the bank....
> 
> Thanks for the info.


Just make sure you get Mexican birth certificates and passports for your dependent Mexican children first....


----------



## circle110

soulfish said:


> So I just need to file paper work and pay fees for a few years, that's great news.
> I was starting to stress out on how I would come up with a hundred thousand to stick in the bank....
> 
> Thanks for the info.


Since you have dependent children, you will only have to pay the one time fee to become a permanent resident. I didn't read your original post closely and so my previous post was for persons married to Mexican citizens but without children. As johnmex said, dependent children make it easy.

Also, johnmex's good advice about getting your children's documentation squared away first is critical.


----------



## Infidel_jack

circle110 said:


> Those of us with Mexican spouses wish it were as "home free" as you seem to think it is. Unfortunately, it isn't quite so simple.
> 
> If your spouse is a Mexican citizen and you don't have a current visa, you can apply for "residente temporal por unidad familiar". That is good because you now don't need the financial proof like for a "residente temporal rentista". After two years renewing as a "residente temporal por unidad familiar", you can change directly to "residente permanente" and then (only after paying several thousand pesos) are you "home free".
> 
> But anyway, the advice to get the official word from the consulate is wise.


Thank you for the information. I have been contemplating marriage with my girlfriend (a Mexican citizen), but we have some personal issues to confront first. I know I have to get permission from Immigration first.


----------



## TundraGreen

*Translations*

Today, six weeks after submitting paper work for a change of status to Residente Permanente, I was told to go back to Migración. When I talked to them they said they wanted complete translations of my bank statements. I had given them statements from a US bank with selected words translated ("balance", "deposits", "withdrawals") and with the balance, total deposits and total withdrawals converted to pesos.

This seems to be insufficient. They want all of the statement translated. They told me it did not need to be an official translator. They said I could do the translation. 

I can write Spanish well enough to do the translation with no problem. But I am uncertain exactly how they would like it done. I will be editing the pdf files. Can I just put a white box filled with Spanish text over the original text? Unfortunately, the bank includes lots of stray text, notes, advertisements. I guess that has to be translated as well. This is a pain.

What have others done? Also, do the amounts have to be translated to pesos?

Thanks,


----------



## Isla Verde

TundraGreen said:


> Today, six weeks after submitting paper work for a change of status to Residente Permanente, I was told to go back to Migración. When I talked to them they said they wanted complete translations of my bank statements. I had given them statements from a US bank with selected words translated ("balance", "deposits", "withdrawals") and with the balance, total deposits and total withdrawals converted to pesos.
> 
> This seems to be insufficient. They want all of the statement translated. They told me it did not need to be an official translator. They said I could do the translation.
> 
> I can write Spanish well enough to do the translation with no problem. But I am uncertain exactly how they would like it done. I will be editing the pdf files. Can I just put a white box filled with Spanish text over the original text? Unfortunately, the bank includes lots of stray text, notes, advertisements. I guess that has to be translated as well. This is a pain.
> 
> What have others done? Also, do the amounts have to be translated to pesos?
> 
> Thanks,


A pain indeed, TG. Why on earth didn't they let you know about this requirement when you turned in all the documentation. At least you won't have to pay an official translator to do the work for you, but that's cold comfort, ¿verdad?


----------



## TundraGreen

Isla Verde said:


> A pain indeed, TG. Why on earth didn't they let you know about this requirement when you turned in all the documentation. At least you won't have to pay an official translator to do the work for you, but that's cold comfort, ¿verdad?


Cold comfort indeed. Good question. Also, why doesn't the web site tell you what they need. Instead, the web site status indicator just tells you that you need to go see them. Then you show up, wait in line, then they hand you a piece of paper saying they need more information. But this is tilting at windmills.

The paper they gave me says it has to be translated by a "perito oficialmente reconocido", but the lady told me I could do the translations. I wonder whom I should believe.


----------



## Isla Verde

TundraGreen said:


> Cold comfort indeed. Good question. Also, why doesn't the web site tell you what they need. Instead, the web site status indicator just tells you that you need to go see them. Then you show up, wait in line, then they hand you a piece of paper saying they need more information. But this is tilting at windmills. And you've fancied yourself a Don Quijote?
> 
> The paper they gave me says it has to be translated by a "perito oficialmente reconocido", but the lady told me I could do the translations. I wonder whom I should believe.


 Maybe you should go back again and ask to speak to a supervisor before you start doing the translation yourself.


----------



## pappabee

Another thought is to download Google Chrome and use it's page translation and just copy it into a .pdf. I've done it before and it works great.

As far as who knows what. I have been told that each office is being run a little differently and that things are still changing each and every week.


----------



## circle110

What a pain! But I am not surprised. I was about ready to scream during my last few visits with the INM folks. Not scream at them (that will make things WAY worse!) - just scream in frustration.

In order to renew my no-inmigrante into a residente temporal and also change my status to married to a Mexican citizen I had to return to INM in San Miguel de Allende eight times... each trip being a two hour round trip drive and a half day of lost time. 

They just plain had no idea what they were doing and finally just had to more or less concede that fact. They had to get the manager of the clerks, the director of that INM office and another visiting fellow from "the big office" together to finally figure out how to handle my "situation" that, frankly, shouldn't have been that complicated. They finally decided upon what I originally thought it should be from reading the regulations online.

TundraGreen, I hope your situation gets worked out as quickly as possible and with as little frustration as they can muster. I wonder why they didn't grandfather you in. I was told that I won't need to show bank information when, in 2 years, I convert to a residente permanente.

As for the translation, I had to have my US wedding license translated by an official translator (they wouldn't accept mine because I'm not certified) and it was just a vague facsimile of the original legal size document done on 8x12 white paper. The formatting was not exact so I'll bet you can just make a document that somewhat resembles the original statement and it will be OK.

Edit: I just read your response about the INM person telling you that you could translate it yourself but the paper saying you needed a perito. They told me the same thing - that I could do it myself - but it turned out that I did need a perito. Now, that was for the registro civil and not for INM but I would still take Isla's advice and find out for sure so as not to waste more of your time.


----------



## cuylers5746

*New Visa - Residente Perminente*

Hey Tundra Green;

Let's back up here a bit. I'm almost certain you're transferring from a FM3 or FM2 Visa to the "manadatory", "Residente Perminente"? Si?

If so you need to definitely go back ask for the General Manager "Administrador", and tell him
that when you started out with this whole process his team was rightly, mighty confused. But
you know, that your "Grandfathered" in for any Financial Statments, and don't need to 
go through all this hassle. 

You're probably going through all this hassle, because you volunteered the information. As my Cunado say's never, never give any official in any office anywhere in Mexico, anything more than what they actually demand! Very good advice I'm finding out.

If you want the ammunition, go look up this subject on Mexconnect.com. Someone copied in the document and down at the bottom it clearly states in essense anyone holding a valid visa prior to the new law Nov. 8th, 2012 does not have to present and prove Financial status.

Now, if you were on a 6 month Visa Tourista, then I can see you having to go through all this hassle, but I don't think that's your case?


----------



## TundraGreen

cuylers5746 said:


> Hey Tundra Green;
> 
> Let's back up here a bit. I'm almost certain you're transferring from a FM3 or FM2 Visa to the "manadatory", "Residente Perminente"? Si?
> 
> If so you need to definitely go back ask for the General Manager "Administrador", and tell him
> that when you started out with this whole process his team was rightly, mighty confused. But
> you know, that your "Grandfathered" in for any Financial Statments, and don't need to
> go through all this hassle.
> 
> You're probably going through all this hassle, because you volunteered the information. As my Cunado say's never, never give any official in any office anywhere in Mexico, anything more than what they actually demand! Very good advice I'm finding out.
> 
> If you want the ammunition, go look up this subject on Mexconnect.com. Someone copied in the document and down at the bottom it clearly states in essense anyone holding a valid visa prior to the new law Nov. 8th, 2012 does not have to present and prove Financial status.
> 
> Now, if you were on a 6 month Visa Tourista, then I can see you having to go through all this hassle, but I don't think that's your case?


I don't think it is avoidable. I went to a seminar on the new rules and was told exactly what I am experiencing. Because my inmigrante visa (formerly FM-2) had a Refrendo 2 on the back, I was not eligible for a Residente Permanente without documenting income. If I had not changed from No-inmigrante (FM-3) to Inmigrante two years ago, I would have gotten a Residente Permanente with less hassle, because my card would have had a Refrendo 4 on the back. Hind sight is wonderful. With a 1 or 2 on the back you are eligible for a Residente Temporal with no financial documentation but not a Residente Permanente. That takes a 3 or 4.

In a PM someone suggested to me that I just put the numbers in a spreadsheet with translated labels rather than translating the whole page for each statement. So I have done that and will attach each translation to the original. We will see what INM thinks about it.


----------



## cuylers5746

*Visa Hassle*

Good luck Tundra Green.

Yea, it sounds like they'd like someone to straighten out a few words for them so they can adequately review your Financial Documents? Sounds like they're on a road to try and
help you get it. Sounds like you effort will probably be enough for them.

I'm told by my local INM Office that the central INM Office in D.F. that makes all the decisions
are absolutely swamped. Some small time bureaucrat just covering his you know what and
wants someone else to make the translation for them?


----------



## mickisue1

cuylers5746 said:


> Hey Tundra Green;
> 
> Let's back up here a bit. I'm almost certain you're transferring from a FM3 or FM2 Visa to the "manadatory", "Residente Perminente"? Si?
> 
> If so you need to definitely go back ask for the General Manager "Administrador", and tell him
> that when you started out with this whole process his team was rightly, mighty confused. But
> you know, that your "Grandfathered" in for any Financial Statments, and don't need to
> go through all this hassle.
> 
> You're probably going through all this hassle, because you volunteered the information. *As my Cunado say's never, never give any official in any office anywhere in Mexico, anything more than what they actually demand! Very good advice I'm finding out.*
> 
> If you want the ammunition, go look up this subject on Mexconnect.com. Someone copied in the document and down at the bottom it clearly states in essense anyone holding a valid visa prior to the new law Nov. 8th, 2012 does not have to present and prove Financial status.
> 
> Now, if you were on a 6 month Visa Tourista, then I can see you having to go through all this hassle, but I don't think that's your case?


Vey good advice ANYWHERE!


----------



## Joycee

TundraGreen,
At the Puebla office, they asked me for a translation of my bank statement last year. They handed me a pen and piece of paper. I was having difficulty as I didn't know what they wanted so one of the staff simple wrote out a statment of how much my deposits were in pesos and had me sign it. This year when I went for my residente temporal, the agent again asked for a translation. My husband said that last year someone in the office did it, so the nice agent asked one of the staff with some English skills to translate. Again it was only the monthly deposits wiith the amount in pesos. I then signed it. 
Good luck.


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## TundraGreen

Joycee said:


> TundraGreen,
> At the Puebla office, they asked me for a translation of my bank statement last year. They handed me a pen and piece of paper. I was having difficulty as I didn't know what they wanted so one of the staff simple wrote out a statment of how much my deposits were in pesos and had me sign it. This year when I went for my residente temporal, the agent again asked for a translation. My husband said that last year someone in the office did it, so the nice agent asked one of the staff with some English skills to translate. Again it was only the monthly deposits wiith the amount in pesos. I then signed it.
> Good luck.


Thanks for all the suggestions from many of you. I turned in what I decided they needed today. I will let you know if it works or not. I left the amounts in dollars this time, although I did it with a spreadsheet so it would have been trivial to turn them into pesos.


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## ruthy

*Does this affect you if you already have FM3?*

Hi,

my boyfriend and I incorporated and got our FM3's taken care of starting in november of 2011 and everything became finalized in the spring of 2012, well before this change to the immigration laws.

So when we go to renew our FM3 will this change in law be held against us, or because we got here before that law was in effect are we somehow miraculously exempt.

I am confused, because on one hand it seems like this was in regards to tourist visas, and not incorporated temporary residents. 

Does anyone have any information who also has an FM3?

thanks!

theresa


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## Isla Verde

ruthy said:


> Hi,
> 
> my boyfriend and I incorporated and got our FM3's taken care of starting in november of 2011 and everything became finalized in the spring of 2012, well before this change to the immigration laws.
> 
> So when we go to renew our FM3 will this change in law be held against us, or because we got here before that law was in effect are we somehow miraculously exempt.
> 
> I am confused, because on one hand it seems like this was in regards to tourist visas, and not incorporated temporary residents.
> 
> Does anyone have any information who also has an FM3?
> 
> thanks!
> 
> theresa


Theresa, what do you mean by "incorporated"? Do you have FM3s or No Inmigrante visas? The FM3 was phased out about 3 years ago. What do you want to be exempt from?


----------



## circle110

Well, just to clarify things, the FM3 hasn't existed since 2010 so I doubt that is what you actually have if you got them in 2011/12. I'll bet you have "no-inmigrante" visas. The "no-inmigrante"(ex-FM3) has now been changed into a visa called "residente temporal".

In most cases, people have been grandfathered in, meaning that when renewing and converting their "no-inmigrante" to the new "residente temporal", you just go through the steps of the renewal process and no new documentation is required. I simply had to write a "bajo protesta de decir verdad" letter stating that nothing had changed (residence, income source and amount, etc.) since I got my previous visa. You guys should be OK.

Caveat:
Some folks here on the forum have been asked to provide additional documents when renewing/converting. Each INM office seems to be doing things a little differently so the only way to get the real answer to your question is to visit your local INM office since they will be the ones deciding what you need, not me!


----------



## ruthy

I saw on here that there were all these requirements for foreigners to have x amount of income coming from the states, or to have a valued home of such and such..I was confused what that was about. Because we have a mexican corporation, which legally allows us to live in mexico for 99 years, or as long as my vitamins can extend my life for  So by making our corporation we were granted FM3 status. The law change that was posted on here threw me a little, because it was making it sound like you had to have this outside income streaming in, or your company or work had to be making x amount of income and employing a certain amount of mexicans.. 

this is what was posted "_Temporary Residents
Original and copy of proof of investments or bank accounts with an average worth over the previous year equivalent to $95,000.00 USD;
Original and copy of documents that prove that the foreigner has had for the previous six months an income from a job (outside of Mexico) or a pension that pays at least $1,950.00 USD per month;
Proof of a any familiar bond with another Temporary or Permanent Resident or a marital (or equivalent) bond with a Mexican;
Original and copy of a notarized public deed showing ownership (or trust rights) to a property in Mexico worth at least $195,000.00 USD;
Proof of participation of at least $100,000.00 USD in a Mexican company;_"


----------



## ruthy

AHh i skipped over your other part, so they said it was FM3 but you are right its non-immigrant...i just looked at the fine print of my card. So then that doesn't apply to us, because income..ha! income here, thats funny. 

Thank you for your help I really appreciate it!

sincerely, 

theresa


----------



## pappabee

According to my facilitator Non-residente visa is very easy to renew. No new information just the same old stuff. I do not have to show income. Now that’s in Chapala, I know that some other offices are being handled differently.

It seems to me that a lot of the confusion is due to the fact that many are not just renewing but trying to change and some are trying to get a first visa. 

Posters needed to make the distinction as to what they are trying to do. Get a first visa, convert their old visa (list what kind) to something else, just renew their existing visa.


----------



## TundraGreen

pappabee said:


> According to my facilitator Non-residente visa is very easy to renew. No new information just the same old stuff. I do not have to show income. Now that’s in Chapala, I know that some other offices are being handled differently.
> 
> It seems to me that a lot of the confusion is due to the fact that many are not just renewing but trying to change and some are trying to get a first visa.
> 
> Posters needed to make the distinction as to what they are trying to do. Get a first visa, convert their old visa (list what kind) to something else, just renew their existing visa.


You make a good point. Changing your status is actually a separate process from getting a visa. When I changed from FM-3 to FM-2 several years ago, they had to first approve the request to change status, then they gave me the new visa. I am going through the same thing now. I had an inmigrante visa which would have converted easily to a Residente Temporal. Instead I requested a change of status to Residente Permanente. That request is being processed now.


----------



## AlanMexicali

TundraGreen said:


> You make a good point. Changing your status is actually a separate process from getting a visa. When I changed from FM-3 to FM-2 several years ago, they had to first approve the request to change status, then they gave me the new visa. I am going through the same thing now. I had an inmigrante visa which would have converted easily to a Residente Temporal. Instead I requested a change of status to Residente Permanente. That request is being processed now.


Another thing is, myself married to a Mexican National and coming and going on FMTs and FMMs over the last 4 1/2 years to Central Mexico would be a first timer, so to speak, BUT did not have to show financial solvency to get a Residente Temporal by applying at a Mexican Consul in the USA but was able to "tramite" my last FMM here inside Mexico because of the new law´s "Vinculo Familiar.¨Alan


----------



## Isla Verde

AlanMexicali said:


> Another thing is, myself married to a Mexican National and coming and going on FMTs and FMMs over the last 4 1/2 years to Central Mexico would be a first timer, so to speak, BUT did not have to show financial solvency to get a Residente Temporal by applying at a Mexican Consul in the USA but was able to "tramite" my last FMM here inside Mexico because of the new law´s "Vinculo Familiar.¨Alan


So, Alan, to qualify for your RT card, you didn't have to provide financial statements at a Mexican Consulate in the States because you have a Mexican wife?


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## AlanMexicali

Isla Verde said:


> So, Alan, to qualify for your RT card, you didn't have to provide financial statements at a Mexican Consulate in the States because you have a Mexican wife?


That is correct and I have the right to work here also with this Residente Temporal status. It was very easy to do with no facilitator. The first thing I did was go get a Federal INAPAM card. I have already bought 4 1/2 price intercity bus tickets, love it. I am going to La Huasteca region of the state of San Luis Potosi [just gorgeous scenery everywhere] for a few days on Semana Santa again for 1/2 price bus tickets. I am taking my 93 year old father in law to his home town for his older sister´s birthday. The family don´t want him going alone anymore. Alan


----------



## Isla Verde

AlanMexicali said:


> That is correct and I have the right to work here also with this Residente Temporal status. It was very easy to do with no facilitator. The first thing I did was go get a Federal INAPAM card. I have already bought 4 1/2 price intercity bus tickets, love it. I am going to La Huasteca region of the state of San Luis Potosi [just gorgeous scenery everywhere] for a few days on Semana Santa again for 1/2 price bus tickets. I am taking my 93 year old father in law to his home town for his older sister´s birthday. The family don´t want him going alone anymore. Alan


I don't believe that Resident Temporal status automatically gives you the right to work, but I could be mistaken. (Is that another perk of having a Mexican spouse?) However, as I understand it, having Resident Permanente status does give you the right to work. 

INAPAM cards are great, especially for getting half-off on intercity bus tickets!


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## ForeverNomadic

My g/f and I intend on moving/traveling all throughout Mexico. I currently make $2000 USD a month and am able to maintain that as we travel. She makes about $1200 - $1800 a month with her business (which we can also maintain while we travel). Would it be best for me to get Residente Temporal status and she get a travelers visa? The car we're going to be driving is going to be in my name, and we were thinking about having her apply for Residente Temporal status when we get to the Mexico City area (about 5 months into us being in Mexico).


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## sparks

ForeverNomadic said:


> and we were thinking about having her apply for Residente Temporal status when we get to the Mexico City area (about 5 months into us being in Mexico).


She would have to apply at a Consulate ... not in Mexico. If you aren't coming to live or settle down why not stick with tourist visas?


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## ForeverNomadic

sparks said:


> She would have to apply at a Consulate ... not in Mexico. If you aren't coming to live or settle down why not stick with tourist visas?


The reason is because we'll be driving from the border to Puerto Vallarta, then all over toward Guanajuato, then to Mexico City, then Oaxaca, and eventually popping over to the Yucatan. So, having a 6 month visa wouldn't be the best idea because we're going to be getting seriously deep into southern Mexico and possibly a 42 hour drive from the border. We're going to be stopping in key cities/towns along the way for a month or more each major point of interest.

Also, the reason we were thinking of having her apply for Residente Temporal while in Mexico is because we're worried the consulate won't grant it to her due to the lack of money she makes per month.


----------



## Isla Verde

ForeverNomadic said:


> The reason is because we'll be driving from the border to Puerto Vallarta, then all over toward Guanajuato, then to Mexico City, then Oaxaca, and eventually popping over to the Yucatan. So, having a 6 month visa wouldn't be the best idea because we're going to be getting seriously deep into southern Mexico and possibly a 42 hour drive from the border. We're going to be stopping in key cities/towns along the way for a month or more each major point of interest.
> 
> Also, the reason we were thinking of having her apply for Residente Temporal while in Mexico is because we're worried the consulate won't grant it to her due to the lack of money she makes per month.


It sounds like you've got a great Mexican odyssey planned!

The rules changed about a year ago, and now you can't apply for a residence visa while you're in Mexico on a tourist visa. You begin the process at a Mexican Consulate back in your home country. If approved, you get a temporary visa sticker placed in your passport, which you must use within the next 6 months to enter Mexico. When you are settled somewhere in Mexico, and have a Mexican address, you go to the nearest INM office to finalize the paperwork. You will need to get to the INM office within 30 days of your arrival in the country. Then you will have to wait several weeks (or longer) before you finally receive the RT card, which will be good for one year. Keep in mind that if you hold a RT or RP card, you must notify INM every time you change your address in Mexico.


----------



## chicois8

ForeverNomadic said:


> The reason is because we'll be driving from the border to Puerto Vallarta, then all over toward Guanajuato, then to Mexico City, then Oaxaca, and eventually popping over to the Yucatan. So, having a 6 month visa wouldn't be the best idea because we're going to be getting seriously deep into southern Mexico and possibly a 42 hour drive from the border. We're going to be stopping in key cities/towns along the way for a month or more each major point of interest.
> 
> Also, the reason we were thinking of having her apply for Residente Temporal while in Mexico is because we're worried the consulate won't grant it to her due to the lack of money she makes per month.


45 hours drive from the border, Dude, what about the Belize or Guatemalan border from the Yucatan for a new FMM and additional 180 days.............


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## ForeverNomadic

chicois8 said:


> 45 hours drive from the border, Dude, what about the Belize or Guatemalan border from the Yucatan for a new FMM and additional 180 days.............


@ Isla Verde: Indeed we have an odyssey planned ! We're both really looking forward to seeing the country and even seeing each state and experiencing the culture along the way. Guanajuato is going to be the longest we stay in a place (we intend on going to a Spanish school there for 3 months). So, if we have to notify the INM offices in PVA, then move to Guanajuato, and notify them to mail the card there, that sounds like it might work.

@ Chicois8: I haven't thought about that! Lol. That would be much easier. I guess I was just under the impression that I would have to go to the border I entered the country in because I'm going to have foreign plates on my vehicle. 

So, it sounds like my best bet, would be for myself to get RT and my g/f to get a tourist visa... head north to the border right before we leave Guanajuato/ San Miguel and head for Mexico city, Oaxaca, and then hit the Guatamalan/ Belize border to renew for the next 6 months for the Yucatan and that area.

Thank you both for all of the information you've given me!!


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## RVGRINGO

If you have to move and change your address often, you can fall into delays. I would suggest that you both remain as tourists on an FMM tourist permit and with temporary importation of your car. Both of you, and the car, can then exit at the nearest border before your 180 day limit and return for another 180 days. Keeping it simple has advantages. Some delays in INM renewals can turn into months, instead of weeks, and INM does not send cards anywhere. You must pick them up.
For a residence visa, it is assumed that you are in residence somewhere, and you must prove it.


----------



## ForeverNomadic

RVGRINGO said:


> If you have to move and change your address often, you can fall into delays. I would suggest that you both remain as tourists on an FMM tourist permit and with temporary importation of your car. Both of you, and the car, can then exit at the nearest border before your 180 day limit and return for another 180 days. Keeping it simple has advantages. Some delays in INM renewals can turn into months, instead of weeks, and INM does not send cards anywhere. You must pick them up.
> For a residence visa, it is assumed that you are in residence somewhere, and you must prove it.


We were just talking about both going with tourist visas because of this. We figured that if my g/f has a tourist visa, we'd need to hit the border every 180 days anyway. However, this is also going to be a little tough because we won't be able to catch flights out of the country to the US or even to anywhere else. So, there are definitely pluses and minuses to both visas. I appreciate your help!


----------



## GnJ.in.MX

For the requirements indicated below for Temporary Residents, must we meet all of those requirements, or some of those requirements? Thanks.

TEMPORARY RESIDENTS

•Original and copy of proof of investments or bank accounts with an average worth over the previous year equivalent to $95,000.00 USD;
•Original and copy of documents that prove that the foreigner has had for the previous six months an income from a job (outside of Mexico) or a pension that pays at least $1,950.00 USD per month;
•Proof of a any familiar bond with another Temporary or Permanent Resident or a marital (or equivalent) bond with a Mexican;
•Original and copy of a notarized public deed showing ownership (or trust rights) to a property in Mexico worth at least $195,000.00 USD; 
•Proof of participation of at least $100,000.00 USD in a Mexican company;
•Proof of ownership in heavy equipment or machinery in Mexico worth more than $100,000.00 USD; OR
•Proof of doing business in Mexico and legally creating at least 5 jobs for Mexicans.

PERMANENT RESIDENT

•Original and copy of proof of investments or bank accounts with an average worth over the previous year equivalent to $95,000.00 USD;
•Original and copy of documents that prove that the foreigner has had for the previous six months an income from a job (outside of Mexico) or a pension that pays at least $2,400.00 USD per month;
•Proof of parent-child bond with a Mexican citizen by birth (this would be birth certificates of everyone involved, plus any other documents proving the citizenship of the Mexican citizen);
•Proof of the same parent-child bond with another Permanent Resident; OR
•Proof that you have enough points (based on a points system that still hasn’t been published).[/QUOTE]


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## Isla Verde

GnJ.in.MX said:


> For the requirements indicated below for Temporary Residents, must we meet all of those requirements, or some of those requirements? Thanks.
> 
> TEMPORARY RESIDENTS
> 
> •Original and copy of proof of investments or bank accounts with an average worth over the previous year equivalent to $95,000.00 USD;
> •Original and copy of documents that prove that the foreigner has had for the previous six months an income from a job (outside of Mexico) or a pension that pays at least $1,950.00 USD per month;
> •Proof of a any familiar bond with another Temporary or Permanent Resident or a marital (or equivalent) bond with a Mexican;
> •Original and copy of a notarized public deed showing ownership (or trust rights) to a property in Mexico worth at least $195,000.00 USD;
> •Proof of participation of at least $100,000.00 USD in a Mexican company;
> •Proof of ownership in heavy equipment or machinery in Mexico worth more than $100,000.00 USD; OR
> •Proof of doing business in Mexico and legally creating at least 5 jobs for Mexicans.
> 
> PERMANENT RESIDENT
> 
> •Original and copy of proof of investments or bank accounts with an average worth over the previous year equivalent to $95,000.00 USD;
> •Original and copy of documents that prove that the foreigner has had for the previous six months an income from a job (outside of Mexico) or a pension that pays at least $2,400.00 USD per month;
> •Proof of parent-child bond with a Mexican citizen by birth (this would be birth certificates of everyone involved, plus any other documents proving the citizenship of the Mexican citizen);
> •Proof of the same parent-child bond with another Permanent Resident; OR
> •Proof that you have enough points (based on a points system that still hasn’t been published).


I'm very sure that you must meet just one of the requirements for the category of visa you're interested in.


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## Hollypop1986

Does anyone know if you still have to meet the financial requirements for permanent residency if you are married to a Mexican Citizen?


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## RVGRINGO

He may have to prove that he can support you. Check with the consulate. I think that you must meet some requirements, then wait two years to be able to apply for naturalization.
You may, because of your unique situation, find that it would be wise to let him get settled, then drive down as tourists for 180 days to evaluate your situation and talk to INM about your options. Then, return to the USA, dispose of your car if becoming Residente Permanente. You will have to replace it with a car purchased in Mexico.
Your husband will need to find employment and housing before you make the move. So, do not rush things.


----------



## AlanMexicali

RVGRINGO said:


> He may have to prove that he can support you. Check with the consulate. I think that you must meet some requirements, then wait two years to be able to apply for naturalization.
> You may, because of your unique situation, find that it would be wise to let him get settled, then drive down as tourists for 180 days to evaluate your situation and talk to INM about your options. Then, return to the USA, dispose of your car if becoming Residente Permanente. You will have to replace it with a car purchased in Mexico.
> Your husband will need to find employment and housing before you make the move. So, do not rush things.


The rules on the SEGOB IMN website state a foreigner married to a Mexican National can get a Residente Permanente visa/card inside Mexico from a FMM tourist card but in practice make you go for a 2 year Residente Temporal instead and then give you a RP visa/card. [at a fee]. This is for first timers.


----------



## terrybahena

Hollypop1986 said:


> Does anyone know if you still have to meet the financial requirements for permanent residency if you are married to a Mexican Citizen?


I'm married to a Mexican citizen and we did not have to prove anything. I got a visa right away and in a few months we hit the 2 year mark and I will apply for citizenship. But to answer your question, when we entered Mexico in June 2012 I did not have to meet any requirements nor did my esposo.


----------



## Longford

I know nothing about spousal visas and what the income requirements might or might not be for someone married to a Mexican. But I will note that the new regulations took effect in November, 2012.


----------



## rlinders

*The law*

WOW! 50 plus pages on this topic and totally lost. Seems as though no one really knows what is going on nor what the law really is on this topic. Which is totally understandable.
My wife and I were planning on going to Mexico in August and staying a minimum of 2.5 years. The most sensible thing I read and believe me I did not read all posts, as after reading 30 or so I was becoming more and more confused, is to do a tourist visa for 6 months at a time. It seems to me this is the most simple thing to do at least until the Mexican government is clear on the law.Maybe after 6 months or a year things will be a little clearer.


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## sparks

The law is clear and pretty much all wrinkles are out. Still not totally uniformly applied around the country but close. Tourist visas can be easier if crossing the border is easy.


----------



## TundraGreen

rlinders said:


> WOW! 50 plus pages on this topic and totally lost. Seems as though no one really knows what is going on nor what the law really is on this topic. Which is totally understandable.
> My wife and I were planning on going to Mexico in August and staying a minimum of 2.5 years. The most sensible thing I read and believe me I did not read all posts, as after reading 30 or so I was becoming more and more confused, is to do a tourist visa for 6 months at a time. It seems to me this is the most simple thing to do at least until the Mexican government is clear on the law.Maybe after 6 months or a year things will be a little clearer.


It is actually not all that complicated but coming on a tourist permit for the first 180 days (it is a permit not a visa, and it is 180 days not 6 months) is probably a good idea. The only thing to note is that it might be difficult to convert from the tourist permit to a visa, either Residente Temporal or Residente Permanente, without returning to the US. But on tourist permits you will be returning to the US anyway every 170 days or so, so that is not necessarily a downside.


----------



## Longford

rlinders said:


> My wife and I were planning on going to Mexico in August and staying a minimum of 2.5 years. The most sensible thing I read and believe me I did not read all posts, as after reading 30 or so I was becoming more and more confused, is to do a tourist visa for 6 months at a time. It seems to me this is the most simple thing to do at least until the Mexican government is clear on the law.Maybe after 6 months or a year things will be a little clearer.


The FMM is not intended for persons intending to stay in Mexico for more than 180 days. Certainly not for people who reside in Mexico. The law is clear on that point, IMO. If you don't qualify for a residency visa than you'll have to look elsewhere for a place to live. But if you're just going to spend 180 days looking around, considering your options ... the FMM will work for you.


----------



## Isla Verde

Longford said:


> The FMM is not intended for persons intending to stay in Mexico for more than 180 days. Certainly not for people who reside in Mexico. The law is clear on that point, IMO. If you don't qualify for a residency visa than you'll have to look elsewhere for a place to live. But if you're just going to spend 180 days looking around, considering your options ... the FMM will work for you.


There is nothing in Mexican Immigration rules and regulations that I have ever seen that states that someone cannot live indefinitely in Mexico by going to the border every 180 days to get a new FMM. Many people have been doing this for years without running into problems. The law is not clear on this point, though you may think so, Longford. If you're going to make statements like this, please be prepared to back them up with a link to a Mexican government website that supports your assertion.


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## Longford

Isla Verde said:


> There is nothing in Mexican Immigration rules and regulations that I have ever seen that states that someone cannot live indefinitely in Mexico by going to the border every 180 days to get a new FMM. Many people have been doing this for years without running into problems. The law is not clear on this point, though you may think so, Longford. If you're going to make statements like this, please be prepared to back them up with a link to a Mexican government website that supports your assertion.


The best evidence is the recent, 2012, revisions to the immigration regulations. You can consult the text if you are not familiar with the regulations. If the government had intended for expats to _reside_ in Mexico on a _tourist_ card it wouldn't have adopted stringent regulations regarding residency qualifications. 

The FMM form states, in English:

"Foreigners who by reason of their nationality do not require visas and who plan to pursue tourism or other activities in Mexico not requiring stays longer than 180 days or entail financial renumeration must fill out this immigration form and present it at the point of entry."

Everyone else must comply with more stringent regulations.

The FMM is primarily intended for _tourists_. It's not intended for expats _residing_ in Mexico. _Residents_ are mandated to comply with the 2012 regulations. There should be no confusion on that point. The fact that some people have continually violated prior regulations by making 'border runs' and that dishonest Mexican government employees have allowed that bad behavior ... is irrelevant.

If someone is truly interested in living in Mexico then it's expected that they respect Mexico, Mexicans and Mexican laws ... and that they apply for a visa in the appropriate resident visa category. A 'look see' at Mexico to determine whether or not it's a right decision for someone ... within the 180 days permitted under the provisions of an FMM ... is appropriate.

It's really not that difficult to comprehend.


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## PanamaJack

Longford said:


> It's really not that difficult to comprehend.


Longford, 
I believe you are a very intelligent person. I also believe your are absolutely wrong on this issue. Here is why: I have lived here for more than 30 years my father was a career in the state department for the U.S. He told countless U.S. citizens year in and year out, that if they preferred not to go through the hassle of residency, or if they were not sure if Mexico was their final destination, than use the tourist 180-day method and have it renewed over and over again. I have since done the same with many, many expats that have crossed my path.
There is NOTHING and I repeat NOTHING written in Mexican law that states it is illegal to leave the country after 180 days and return the same day or shortly thereafter with another visa for 180-days.
As Isla Verde asked show us where it states that, otherwise in my humble opinion stop making comments that these people are breaking the law, are criminals and are disrespectful to Mexicans. your comments are at times disrespectful to the thousands who read this forum daily.
I believe this option is viable for those who either cannot afford the cost of residency, are not sure of where they want to live in Mexico or just want to stay temporarily but longer than the 180 days.


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## TundraGreen

Longford said:


> The best evidence is the recent, 2012, revisions to the immigration regulations. You can consult the text if you are not familiar with the regulations. If the government had intended for expats to _reside_ in Mexico on a _tourist_ card it wouldn't have adopted stringent regulations regarding residency qualifications.
> 
> The FMM form states, in English:
> 
> "Foreigners who by reason of their nationality do not require visas and who plan to pursue tourism or other activities in Mexico not requiring stays longer than 180 days or entail financial renumeration must fill out this immigration form and present it at the point of entry."
> 
> Everyone else must comply with more stringent regulations.
> 
> The FMM is primarily intended for _tourists_. It's not intended for expats _residing_ in Mexico. _Residents_ are mandated to comply with the 2012 regulations. There should be no confusion on that point. The fact that some people have continually violated prior regulations by making 'border runs' and that dishonest Mexican government employees have allowed that bad behavior ... is irrelevant.
> 
> If someone is truly interested in living in Mexico then it's expected that they respect Mexico, Mexicans and Mexican laws ... and that they apply for a visa in the appropriate resident visa category. A 'look see' at Mexico to determine whether or not it's a right decision for someone ... within the 180 days permitted under the provisions of an FMM ... is appropriate.
> 
> It's really not that difficult to comprehend.


Longford, the trouble I have with your point of view is how you decide who is a tourist and who is a resident. 

If I come to Mexico for two weeks a year, I am a tourist. If I come for two weeks every month, I am still a tourist. As far as I am concerned, if you come here on a tourist permit you are a tourist. 

Mexico is happy to have tourists for as little or as long and as often as they want to come. People that come here for 179 days at a time are still tourists under Mexican law. They are not entitled to any of the privileges that accrue to residents, like working (with permission depending on visa type). 

Mexico allows tourists to buy homes or take out fideocomisos, so evidently they expect that some tourists will be spending a lot of time in Mexico.


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## lagoloo

If these folks don't intend to make Mexico their permanent home at present, going through the very stringent process to do so doesn't seem appropriate.
There at a number of ways of looking at it: there's what you MIGHT do, and there's what you CAN do, all legally.

I'd say the best route would be to come on a 180 day permit, look around, see how they like it and whether they can qualify for Permanente by investing in a visit to a facilitator or Notario.
Keep it simple.


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## The Largisimo

If you are living long term on a 180 day tourist visa and constantly border hopping does that present any issues affecting your ability to buy various health insurance policies?


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## TundraGreen

The Largisimo said:


> If you are living long term on a 180 day tourist visa and constantly border hopping does that present any issues affecting your ability to buy various health insurance policies?


Just guessing, but I suspect that IMSS would not take on a tourist. And also guessing, I suspect that private companies will take money from anyone willing to pay their premiums. Maybe someone will have definitive information.


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## Isla Verde

TundraGreen said:


> Just guessing, but I suspect that IMSS would not take on a tourist. And also guessing, I suspect that private companies will take money from anyone willing to pay their premiums. Maybe someone will have definitive information.


As of last year, to apply to IMSS for insurance you need the following: proof of residence in Mexico (a phone bill, for instance), birth certificate, proof of marriage (if applicable), official ID with photograph (for non-Mexican citizens that would be your passport and your residence visa - not sure if a tourist card will do the trick), 4 photographs, CURP, and Mexican Social Security number.


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## lagoloo

On the other hand, out of pocket costs for most medical needs are very low; sometimes less than the co-pay under Medicare. If something serious or long term happens, he can get one of those Medivac policies that will transport him back to the U.S. for Medicare. Or fly/drive home if he's able.

Neither IMSS or Seguro Popular would be an option as far as I know. There might be an age issue with private insurance.


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## Isla Verde

lagoloo said:


> Neither IMSS or Seguro Popular would be an option as far as I know. There might be an age issue with private insurance.


Take it from me, after 65 there is always an age problem with private health insurance, unless you're very wealthy!


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## Longford

PanamaJack said:


> I have lived here for more than 30 years my father was a career in the state department for the U.S. He told countless U.S. citizens year in and year out, that if they preferred not to go through the hassle of residency, or if they were not sure if Mexico was their final destination, than use the tourist 180-day method and have it renewed over and over again. I have since done the same with many, many expats that have crossed my path.


What your father may have said 30 years ago is irrelevant, to the discussion of the INM regulations today.



> As Isla Verde asked show us where it states that, otherwise in my humble opinion stop making comments that these people are breaking the law, are criminals and are disrespectful to Mexicans. your comments are at times disrespectful to the thousands who read this forum daily.


Please point to the section of the current INM regulations where the exceptions to the residency requirements are listed. There is no such exception for expats who reside in Mexico. My view is that people who falsely claim to be tourists when in fact they are residents ... don't really respect Mexico or Mexicans. Typically, I believe they can't meet the requirements of the government so they lie about their stuation. If there were a cheaper and closer country for them to live, I don't think they'd be in Mexico. Not most of them.

Thanks for sharing your opinion regarding my comments.


----------



## GARYJ65

Longford said:


> What your father may have said 30 years ago is irrelevant, to the discussion of the INM regulations today. Please point to the section of the current INM regulations where the exceptions to the residency requirements are listed. There is no such exception for expats who reside in Mexico. My view is that people who falsely claim to be tourists when in fact they are residents ... don't really respect Mexico or Mexicans. Typically, I believe they can't meet the requirements of the government so they lie about their stuation. If there were a cheaper and closer country for them to live, I don't think they'd be in Mexico. Not most of them. Thanks for sharing your opinion regarding my comments.


About foreigners who are false residents: I agree on thonking they are disrespectful to the Country and its people, as well as illegal aliens
Same as Mexicans when they lie about their immigration status when abroad
I don't think there is any other way to see it


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## Longford

TundraGreen said:


> Longford, the trouble I have with your point of view is how you decide who is a tourist and who is a resident.


No, it's the Mexican government which has made that determination. I think it's also pretty easy for a reasonably intelligent person to understand the difference in what a _tourist_ is and what a _resident_ is. In the case in hand, however, about which my comments were offered in response to, please don't expect anyone to believe the persons would be _tourists_:

_"My wife and I were planning on going to Mexico in August and staying *a minimum of 2.5 years"*._



> Mexico allows tourists to buy homes or take out fideocomisos, so evidently they expect that some tourists will be spending a lot of time in Mexico.


You're mixing apples with oranges. See my remarks above, regarding tourists and residents.


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## PanamaJack

I must give you credit Longford for twisting words. Isla and I asked you to show where Mexican law says it is unlawful to make repeated entrances using 180 FMN cards. Your response is to say there are no exceptions to the law. However, the law does not state is is unlawful to do just that, so how would there be an exception if it is not unlawful.

Your comment is absurd about being disrespectful to Mexico and Mexicans. 95% of those who leave and return every 180 days are retired peopel receiving no benefits from the Mexican government and who are putting putting money into the local economy through rental rooms, consuming food, and other daily activiities.

Gary - comparing the expats that leave every 180 days and return with the 11 million unodcumented Mexicans in the U.S. is like comparing apples and oranges. Mexicans for the most part remain in the U.S. for years and years and never leave. They use social services and they send billions of dollars each year back to Mexico without investing it in teh U.S. So that comparison does not hold weight.


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## PanamaJack

Longford said:


> No, it's the Mexican government which has made that determination. I think it's also pretty easy for a reasonably intelligent person to understand the difference in what a _tourist_ is and what a _resident_ is. In the case in hand, however, about which my comments were offered in response to, please don't expect anyone to believe the persons would be _tourists_:
> 
> _"My wife and I were planning on going to Mexico in August and staying *a minimum of 2.5 years"*._
> 
> 
> 
> You're mixing apples with oranges. See my remarks above, regarding tourists and residents.


Longford 
Does that mean tourists do not buy homes in Mexico? I have two brothers and a sister who all own homes in Mexico, yet are full time residents of the U.S. of A. They visit up to three times a year for between two weeks and a month per visit.. residnts or tourists, you tell me since you know Mexican law so well.


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## GARYJ65

PanamaJack said:


> I must give you credit Longford for twisting words. Isla and I asked you to show where Mexican law says it is unlawful to make repeated entrances using 180 FMN cards. Your response is to say there are no exceptions to the law. However, the law does not state is is unlawful to do just that, so how would there be an exception if it is not unlawful. Your comment is absurd about being disrespectful to Mexico and Mexicans. 95% of those who leave and return every 180 days are retired peopel receiving no benefits from the Mexican government and who are putting putting money into the local economy through rental rooms, consuming food, and other daily activiities. Gary - comparing the expats that leave every 180 days and return with the 11 million unodcumented Mexicans in the U.S. is like comparing apples and oranges. Mexicans for the most part remain in the U.S. for years and years and never leave. They use social services and they send billions of dollars each year back to Mexico without investing it in teh U.S. So that comparison does not hold weight.


On being in an illegal status, they would be in the same basket.


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## PanamaJack

GARYJ65 said:


> On being in an illegal status, they would be in the same basket.


Sorry Gary you are wrong, the expats have a 180-day pass, that they can leave and then come back again. Undocumented immigrants in the U.S. have been there 10, 20, 30-years without papers. Comparable, I think not.


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## GARYJ65

PanamaJack said:


> Sorry Gary you are wrong, the expats have a 180-day pass, that they can leave and then come back again. Undocumented immigrants in the U.S. have been there 10, 20, 30-years without papers. Comparable, I think not.


We were talking about the ones that lie on their immigrant status


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## Longford

PanamaJack said:


> I have two brothers and a sister who all own homes in Mexico, yet are full time residents of the U.S. of A. They visit up to three times a year for between two weeks and a month per visit.. residnts or tourists, you tell me since you know Mexican law so well.


The person most recently asking the question, which re-ignited this discussion ... expressed the intention to reside in Mexico for "*a minimum of 2.5 years*". Please don't have readers believe you don't understand the difference between a _tourist _... such as your family members who reside in the United States and have property in Mexico and _visit_ for short periods of time ... and someone who has said it's their intention to _reside_ in Mexico long-term.

I suggest you take the time to read the INM regulations which became effective in November 2012. Do you think the government went through all that effort to define what an expat residing in Mexico must comply with ... only to tell people it wasn't serious after all? Or that compliance was voluntary, and not mandatory? The language of the FMM is very clear, also. Please read that again. And help me understand you reasoning by pointing to the language in the Constitution or INM regulations which provide the exceptions a couple of people in the discussion claim exist. 

Thanks.


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## TundraGreen

PanamaJack said:


> …
> Gary - comparing the expats that leave every 180 days and return with the 11 million unodcumented Mexicans in the U.S. is like comparing apples and oranges. Mexicans for the most part remain in the U.S. for years and years and never leave. They use social services and they send billions of dollars each year back to Mexico without investing it in teh U.S. So that comparison does not hold weight.


PanamaJack, Generally you and I are on the same page but I have to take exception to your comments about undocumented Mexicans in the US.

Most of them remain in the US for years and never leave because they would not be able to return to the US. I am sure many of them would love to visit Mexico and their family every year just as US people in Mexico do, but they do not have that option.

Many, maybe most, undocumented people pay social security and income taxes. They are deducted from their pay and they don't want to risk getting caught in some violation that will bring them to the attention of ICE. They get no benefits because they are either ineligible or again, afraid of coming to the attention of ICE.

Many are employed in menial work that no one in the US wants to do. I have read about how long some non-Mexican labor has lasted working in the hot sum picking fruit all day.


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## Isla Verde

GARYJ65 said:


> We were talking about the ones that lie on their immigrant status


I'm confused. Where is this discussion has any mention been made of foreigners living in Mexico who have lied about their immigrant status? And to whom did they lie?


----------



## Longford

TundraGreen said:


> Many, maybe most, undocumented people pay social security and income taxes. They are deducted from their pay and they don't want to risk getting caught in some violation that will bring them to the attention of ICE. They get no benefits because they are either ineligible or again, afraid of coming to the attention of ICE.


Yes, probably the vast majority of illegal aliens in the USA have a variety of taxes withdrawn from their wages and they present false Social Security Numbers and therefore they will never receive benefits from a program which they have paid into. As far as not receiving any benefits, that's not an accurate statement. Illeglas are costing hospitals tens or even hundreds of millions of dollars because of care they are receiving but cannot pay for. Illegal aliens can, in many states, receive a drivers license and then can purchase auto insurance. Illegal aliens also receive a variety of services from municipal, state and federal government agencies and programs. Fear of capture and removal from the USA is real and present in the illegal alien community. 



> Many are employed in menial work that no one in the US wants to do. I have read about how long some non-Mexican labor has lasted working in the hot sum picking fruit all day.


Many of the illegal aliens are working in jobs other Americans don't seem to want (some would, though) but they are paid pretty good for the work. Packing houses. Construction. There are many unscrupuluos employers who seek-out illegal aliens because the illegals aren't as likely to complain about workplace safety issues or abuses as a legalized person would. And illegals don't have the right to organize for collective bargaining. Ranchers and the agricultural industry can obtain seasonal work visa for aliens from just about any country, if they want. The red-tape and expense involved for an employer doing that legally, however, is said, by the employers, to be the reason some seek-out the illegals. The greatest agricultural industry abuses seem to occur not at the large corporate-owned enterprises but at the smaller grower/rancher level. It's work I wouldn't want to do.


----------



## Isla Verde

Longford said:


> The person most recently asking the question, which re-ignited this discussion ... expressed the intention to reside in Mexico for "*a minimum of 2.5 years*". Please don't have readers believe you don't understand the difference between a _tourist _... such as your family members who reside in the United States and have property in Mexico and _visit_ for short periods of time ... and someone who has said it's their intention to _reside_ in Mexico long-term.
> 
> I suggest you take the time to read the INM regulations which became effective in November 2012. Do you think the government went through all that effort to define what an expat residing in Mexico must comply with ... only to tell people it wasn't serious after all? Or that compliance was voluntary, and not mandatory? The language of the FMM is very clear, also. Please read that again. And help me understand you reasoning by pointing to the language in the Constitution or INM regulations which provide the exceptions a couple of people in the discussion claim exist.
> 
> Thanks.


Why is this issue so important to you, Longford? Why should you care if some foreigners living in Mexico are not following the immigration rules as you interpret them. Why do Mexican government border agents let this sort of activity occur? Surely, with everything being computerized these days, it would be easy to find out that someone applying for an FMM has just crossed the border and now wants to return to Mexico.


----------



## PanamaJack

TundraGreen said:


> PanamaJack, Generally you and I are on the same page but I have to take exception to your comments about undocumented Mexicans in the US.
> 
> Most of them remain in the US for years and never leave because they would not be able to return to the US. I am sure many of them would love to visit Mexico and their family every year just as US people in Mexico do, but they do not have that option.
> 
> Many, maybe most, undocumented people pay social security and income taxes. They are deducted from their pay and they don't want to risk getting caught in some violation that will bring them to the attention of ICE. They get no benefits because they are either ineligible or again, afraid of coming to the attention of ICE.
> 
> Many are employed in menial work that no one in the US wants to do. I have read about how long some non-Mexican labor has lasted working in the hot sum picking fruit all day.


Tundra where in my post did not say I did not want undocumented immigrants or that I did not feel sorry for them. My wife has relatives that have lived there for years without papers. BUT it is their choice, they decided to go there on visas and overstay their visa or cross the border unseen. They had children there and went to hospitals and never paid for their child's birth. You are wrong about not receiving benefits. One of my wife's neice's just had child in California and she is receiving state aid in the form of powdered milk, fruit juices and diapers and both parents are undocumented. I agree they do some jobs most U.S. citizens would choose not to but that is their choice. I am not against them and believe the U.S. should find a pathway to legalization for them but do not compare them to expats in the U.S. like Gary does.


----------



## Longford

Isla Verde said:


> Why is this issue so important to you, Longford?


The fact that there has been almost 60 pages of discussion here in the past year and a half regarding the changes to the law and regulations as they affect the expat resident community - the community of participants on this forum has decided the importance of the issue. I'm merely participating in a continuing conversation. Why single me out and not ask the same question of others in the discussion? 



> Why should you care if some foreigners living in Mexico are not following the immigration rules as you interpret them.


Why shouldn't I care?  Please point to me where, in the Constitution or the INM regulations, the exceptions people claim exist are located. I've read both and don't see what others claim to be their right to ignore the law/regulatons. Educate me on that point. 



> Why do Mexican government border agents let this sort of activity occur?


You'll have to ask them the question. I've suggested before, to people posting here claiming they don't have to comply with the residency requirements, that when they make their border run they ask to see the supervisor/director of the particular immigration office, and explain to the director they are and have been living in Mexico for years and doing so as a tourist on an FMM (even though Mexico has become their "home") and that they want to continue doing so, claiming to be a tourist and present in Mexico on an FMM, instead of applying for a visa in one of the residency categories ... and report back to us on the outcome. I've yet to see one of these people report that they've done that, and the response they received.


----------



## TundraGreen

Longford said:


> …
> You'll have to ask them the question. I've suggested before, to people posting here claiming they don't have to comply with the residency requirements, that when they make their border run they ask to see the supervisor/director of the particular immigration office, and explain to the director they are and have been living in Mexico for years and doing so as a tourist on an FMM (even though Mexico has become their "home") and that they want to continue doing so, claiming to be a tourist and present in Mexico on an FMM, instead of applying for a visa in one of the residency categories ... and report back to us on the outcome. I've yet to see one of these people report that they've done that, and the response they received.


I am pretty tired of this discussion because I don't think anyone is going to change anyone else's mind. But I cannot resist responding to this last comment.

When the new regulations were first implemented in November 2012, the group in Ajijic arranged a meeting with INM to learn about the new rules. I spent half a day making the trip to Ajijic to attend the meeting.

If I recall correctly, one of the people at that meeting asked the INM representative exactly this question. Was it okay for people to get one Tourist Permit after another, leaving the country briefly between them? The INM representative's response was that it was perfectly okay with INM.


----------



## PanamaJack

TundraGreen said:


> If I recall correctly, one of the people at that meeting asked the INM representative exactly this question. Was it okay for people to get one Tourist Permit after another, leaving the country briefly between them? The INM representative's response was that it was perfectly okay with INM.


Longford,
Game, set and match!!! you lose.


----------



## Longford

PanamaJack said:


> Longford,
> Game, set and match!!! you lose.


Remember, next time you make your border-run - fess-up to the INM office director as I suggested earlier for people in similar circumstances. And be sure to report back to us on the answer you get.  Better yet, you might find it helpful to consult an attorney experienced in immigration matters, to ... well ... you know why.  Anyhow, best wishes for a healthy and wonderful 2014! Just think, you could be up here in the Midwest USA enjoying the cold and snow. The other day I was in Acapulco where it was 87F. Quite a change!


----------



## sunnyinvallarta

sparks said:


> Well it certainly seems that way with the new immigration rules published this morning. I know tons of people who either own a home or rely on cheap rent so do well with the old income requirements of $12-1300us a month. To raise that limit almost $800 is going to be a problem for many. It gets especially spooky when people who have lived here for 10+ years as home owners talk about being forced to sell and leave because their house is not worth $195K and they have a modest income. Then we have all the people, mainly on the coast, who own Ejido land and don't have title so value of the house is irrelevant ... it's not really theirs. I'm in the twilight zone as far as income but adjusting it now would not give me the 6 months required in January. Do we need to look for another place to live?
> 
> TEMPORARY RESIDENTS
> 
> •Original and copy of proof of investments or bank accounts with an average worth over the previous year equivalent to $95,000.00 USD;
> •Original and copy of documents that prove that the foreigner has had for the previous six months an income from a job (outside of Mexico) or a pension that pays at least $1,950.00 USD per month;
> •Proof of a any familiar bond with another Temporary or Permanent Resident or a marital (or equivalent) bond with a Mexican;
> •Original and copy of a notarized public deed showing ownership (or trust rights) to a property in Mexico worth at least $195,000.00 USD;
> •Proof of participation of at least $100,000.00 USD in a Mexican company;
> •Proof of ownership in heavy equipment or machinery in Mexico worth more than $100,000.00 USD; OR
> •Proof of doing business in Mexico and legally creating at least 5 jobs for Mexicans.
> 
> PERMANENT RESIDENT
> 
> •Original and copy of proof of investments or bank accounts with an average worth over the previous year equivalent to $95,000.00 USD;
> •Original and copy of documents that prove that the foreigner has had for the previous six months an income from a job (outside of Mexico) or a pension that pays at least $2,400.00 USD per month;
> •Proof of parent-child bond with a Mexican citizen by birth (this would be birth certificates of everyone involved, plus any other documents proving the citizenship of the Mexican citizen);
> •Proof of the same parent-child bond with another Permanent Resident; OR
> •Proof that you have enough points (based on a points system that still hasn’t been published).


I take it this is per person? So for a couple, double the needed income? 
Going to be very difficult for us!


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## PanamaJack

Longford said:


> Remember, next time you make your border-run - fess-up to the INM office director as I suggested earlier for people in similar circumstances. And be sure to report back to us on the answer you get.  Better yet, you might find it helpful to consult an attorney experienced in immigration matters, to ... well ... you know why.  Anyhow, best wishes for a healthy and wonderful 2014! Just think, you could be up here in the Midwest USA enjoying the cold and snow. The other day I was in Acapulco where it was 87F. Quite a change!


Longford, a happy and healthy 2014 to you as well. I do not need a lawyer, do not make border runs I am a dual U.S. - Mexico citizen and have been for 20 years. However, do not tell Mexican authorities as I am supposed to renounce my U.S. citizenship :suspicious:


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## TundraGreen

PanamaJack said:


> …
> However, do not tell Mexican authorities as I am supposed to renounce my U.S. citizenship :suspicious:


Where does it say that? I thought there was no problem with dual US-Mexico citienship. Maybe you were kidding?


----------



## RVGRINGO

You do not need to renounce your US citizenship to the USA authorities. Only to the Mexican.

If only one spouse can meet the income requirements, the other may enter Mexico as a tourist. Once the first one gets a residence visa, the second one may apply and get the same status under vincula familiar rules.


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## ojosazules11

Longford said:


> You'll have to ask them the question. I've suggested before, to people posting here claiming they don't have to comply with the residency requirements, that when they make their border run they ask to see the supervisor/director of the particular immigration office, and explain to the director they are and have been living in Mexico for years and doing so as a tourist on an FMM (even though Mexico has become their "home") and that they want to continue doing so, claiming to be a tourist and present in Mexico on an FMM, instead of applying for a visa in one of the residency categories ... and report back to us on the outcome. I've yet to see one of these people report that they've done that, and the response they received.



Mexico wants and needs "tourist dollars" whether from short- or long-term visitors. Since the law does not stipulate how long you have to be out of the country before returning nor the maximum number of days a non-resident can be in the country per 365-day period, it may be, Longford, that your concern about this practice is not shared by Mexican immigration. 

It would not surprise me if someone were to do as you suggest above and was met with a quizzical look about why they are complicating things, followed by "Cual es el problema? Bienvenido a México. Be sure to leave within 180 days, but you can come back whenever you like. "


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## ojosazules11

My own reference above to border agents and "complicating things" reminds me of an incident at immigration at the Mexico City airport. My husband, who is Mexican, wanted us to go into the much shorter line reserved for Mexicans. Since I am not Mexican I thought that would be flouting the rules and taking advantage, so I insisted we go into the much longer line for non-Mexicans. I heard my husband mutter something like _"Siempre complica las cosas"_, but of course I was certain I was doing the "right" thing. 

After the border agent checked us through, he asked "Why didn't you go through the line for Mexicans?" I explained that I didn't think I would be allowed as a non-Mexican. He replied that since my husband was Mexican and we were together that would not be a problem. So there you go - I thought I was doing the right thing but really I was just complicating things. 😄


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## Hound Dog

_


ojosazules11 said:



My own reference above to border agents and "complicating things" reminds me of an incident at immigration at the Mexico City airport. My husband, who is Mexican, wanted us to go into the much shorter line reserved for Mexicans. Since I am not Mexican I thought that would be flouting the rules and taking advantage, so I insisted we go into the much longer line for non-Mexicans. I heard my husband mutter something like "Siempre complica las cosas", but of course I was certain I was doing the "right" thing. 

After the border agent checked us through, he asked "Why didn't you go through the line for Mexicans?" I explained that I didn't think I would be allowed as a non-Mexican. He replied that since my husband was Mexican and we were together that would not be a problem. So there you go - I thought I was doing the right thing but really I was just complicating things.

Click to expand...

_That is not just Mexico by the way. When returning from France a couple of years ago and changing for Guadalajara in Chicago, I dutifully separated from my French wife and went through the long and slow security line reserved for U.S. citizens while she went through the non citizen line. When i finally got to the TSA agent or whatever he was, I told him, upon his inquiry, that I was being accompanied on this journey by my French wife who was in the other line. He admonished me as to why we had not simply gone into the same line and I told him we were simply obeying the signage I did not say this to the TSA guy but life is too short to offend TSA Nazis by ignoring their signs. 

This got even better as for some period of time my wife did not show up at the international gate required for the flight to Guadalajara. Time was precious so ,finally, I requested permission to return to the área I had just exited to look for her as I was becoming quite anxious. No way would they allow this in a million years so I had to wait at the gate in some anxiety. Fortunately, she showed up at the last minute. Otherwise, what was I to do with all those TSA goons roaming about. Fly on to Guadalajara or, as a U.S. citizen, stay in Chicago. Sincé my wife only had a U.S. visa limited to transport through Chicago, that decisión was easy but I still experienced some moments of unpleasantness. 

We had flown to Paris through the U.S. becauase of some discount we received for taking that route. We often travel to France to visit relatives but we vowed then and there to always take the non stop midnight flyer between DF and Paris in the future and avoid any U.S. connections like the plague no matter the savings.


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## PanamaJack

TundraGreen said:


> Where does it say that? I thought there was no problem with dual US-Mexico citienship. Maybe you were kidding?


As RVGRINGO said you are not required to renounce another country's citizenship, but Mexican law says you must renounce citizenship of another country when you become a Mexican citizen. My family of five all have dual-citizenship Mexico-United States no renouncing on our part.


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## TundraGreen

ojosazules11 said:


> My own reference above to border agents and "complicating things" reminds me of an incident at immigration at the Mexico City airport. My husband, who is Mexican, wanted us to go into the much shorter line reserved for Mexicans. Since I am not Mexican I thought that would be flouting the rules and taking advantage, so I insisted we go into the much longer line for non-Mexicans. I heard my husband mutter something like _"Siempre complica las cosas"_, but of course I was certain I was doing the "right" thing.
> 
> After the border agent checked us through, he asked "Why didn't you go through the line for Mexicans?" I explained that I didn't think I would be allowed as a non-Mexican. He replied that since my husband was Mexican and we were together that would not be a problem. So there you go - I thought I was doing the right thing but really I was just complicating things. 😄


I have had several similar experiences. The first time I came into Mexico at the DF airport with my Residente Permanente Visa, I went through the long line for non-Mexican citizens. At the end the agent told me I could use the Mexican citizen line. The next time I used the extremely short Mexican citizen line and had no problem.

In other situations, I have often crossed the border to the US on foot, both in Tijuana and in Ciudad Juarez. Several times I have tried to check out with INM before crossing. They look at me like I am crazy and finally just tell me to go.


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## Hound Dog

_


PanamaJack said:



Longford, a happy and healthy 2014 to you as well. I do not need a lawyer, do not make border runs I am a dual U.S. - Mexico citizen and have been for 20 years. However, do not tell Mexican authorities as I am supposed to renounce my U.S. citizenship :suspicious:

Click to expand...

_Well, PJ, you have a lot more experience than we do on the citizenship business but as my wife and I, French and U.S. citizens respectively, just became naturalized Mexican citizens and we are apprised of the fact that we must respect the protocol of each sovereign nation with whom we are attached or find ourselves up the creek with no paddle, we understand the passport presentation seems to follow these rules

When we are entering Mexico from abroad we are Mexicans and the Mexican authorities are very serious about this. It would be a huge mistake for us to enter this country under a U.S., French or any other Passport.

When we enter the United States, my wife is French and I am a U.S. citizen.

When we enter France or any other Western European country , once again my wife is French and I am a U.S. citizen.

Next month we plan to drive down to Guatemala and Honduras. We have yet to figure that out but I think we will both be Mexicans.

None of this is even remotely ilegal and neither France nor the United States recognize any renunciation one has agreed to in Mexico. Now, if I were a U.S.citizen, I would not try that in Cuba or North Korea. Such is politics.


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## PanamaJack

Hound Dog said:


> Well, PJ, you have a lot more experience than we do on the citizenship business but as my wife and I, French and U.S. citizens respectively, just became naturalized Mexican citizens and we are apprised of the fact that we must respect the protocol of each sovereign nation with whom we are attached or find ourselves up the creek with no paddle, we understand the passport presentation seems to follow these rules
> 
> When we are entering Mexico from abroad we are Mexicans and the Mexican authorities are very serious about this. It would be a huge mistake for us to enter this country under a U.S., French or any other Passport.
> 
> When we enter the United States, my wife is French and I am a U.S. citizen.
> 
> When we enter France or any other Western European country , once again my wife is French and I am a U.S. citizen.
> 
> Next month we plan to drive down to Guatemala and Honduras. We have yet to figure that out but I think we will both be Mexicans.
> 
> None of this is even remotely ilegal and neither France nor the United States recognize any renunciation one has agreed to in Mexico. Now, if I were a U.S.citizen, I would not try that in Cuba or North Korea. Such is politics.




I suggest and only suggest entering Guatemala as U.S. citizen and French Citizen, Guatemalans dislike Mexicans in general. In Honduras who knows, but just be careful there, crime is high in San Pedro Sula, Tegucigalpa and other places, however in the Bay Islands it is a paradise. 
When I traveled to Cuba, whoops not supposed to say that, they do not check your passport just another ID. I used a drivers license. You could not pay me to go to North Korea unless it was to see Dennis Rodman imprisoned in a hard labor camp. 
I travel the same way - enter the U.S. as a U.S. citizen and Mexico as a Mexican citizen. Congrats on becoming a Mexican citizen we are now paisanos from two countries!!!


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## TundraGreen

Hound Dog said:


> Well, PJ, you have a lot more experience than we do on the citizenship business but as my wife and I, French and U.S. citizens respectively, just became naturalized Mexican citizens and we are apprised of the fact that we must respect the protocol of each sovereign nation with whom we are attached or find ourselves up the creek with no paddle, we understand the passport presentation seems to follow these rules
> 
> …


 Congratulations Hound Dog and Citlali. I have one more year to wait before I can follow in your footsteps.


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## citlali

Whe I entered Guatemala last year, I did so via the river and Bethel and there they do not care what you are.. I was with Mexican citizens and they were treated just like I was . The guy who takes you to Bether from the river is a money changer from Honduras and the border there is interesting to see the least. The Mexicans who were with me told me that the border is porous because Mexico concentrate on getting the illegals in Chipas....

We waited for a collectivo for several hours on the Guatemala side because they were waiting for more boats from Mexico. We were with about 30 members from the Mara gang who were waiting for their coyote to cross them into Mexico. They were on their way to the US.. When you travel the river you can see all the coyotes on both sides waiting to cross, the border is totally porous only tourists wait in line to get their papers stamped, it is a pretty incredible sight.


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## citlali

Tundragreen, good luck to you it is easier to be a citizen than deal with Immigration and all their screwy rules.. Now we can even run for elections, except for the Presidential ones of course...By the way you can lose your Mexican citizenship if you are naturalized and leave the country for more than 5 years. I thought that was interesting..


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## Hound Dog

_


TundraGreen said:



I have had several similar experiences. The first time I came into Mexico at the DF airport with my Residente Permanente Visa, I went through the long line for non-Mexican citizens. At the end the agent told me I could use the Mexican citizen line. The next time I used the extremely short Mexican citizen line and had no problem.

In other situations, I have often crossed the border to the US on foot, both in Tijuana and in Ciudad Juarez. Several times I have tried to check out with INM before crossing. They look at me like I am crazy and finally just tell me to go.

Click to expand...

_This reminds me of the fact that, when the new immigration law came into effect during the past year, it was widely published that those of us holding the old Inmigrado Visa were required to come into INM and exchange that permanent card with no expiration or renewal date, for the new Residente Permanente card to be issued under the new statutes. God! I dreaded ever darkening the INM door again so I kept putting off this procedure as long as possible, especially since INM was in chaos just trying to deal with the new temporary and permanent residency rules. I finally licked this problem by going for naturalization but, before that could be accomplished. I wondered if some border Clerk would ask what the hell an Inmigrado was as I was trying to enter the country and throw me in the hoosegow. 

Finall, INM woke up to the fact that it did not need additional problems attached to those it already had and informed Inmigrado status visa holders that there was no need to Exchange their cards for residente permanente status cards. Whew!


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## GARYJ65

Isla Verde said:


> I'm confused. Where is this discussion has any mention been made of foreigners living in Mexico who have lied about their immigrant status? And to whom did they lie?


Quote:
Originally Posted by PanamaJack View Post
I have lived here for more than 30 years my father was a career in the state department for the U.S. He told countless U.S. citizens year in and year out, that if they preferred not to go through the hassle of residency, or if they were not sure if Mexico was their final destination, than use the tourist 180-day method and have it renewed over and over again. I have since done the same with many, many expats that have crossed my path.
What your father may have said 30 years ago is irrelevant, to the discussion of the INM regulations today.

Quote:
As Isla Verde asked show us where it states that, otherwise in my humble opinion stop making comments that these people are breaking the law, are criminals and are disrespectful to Mexicans. your comments are at times disrespectful to the thousands who read this forum daily.
Please point to the section of the current INM regulations where the exceptions to the residency requirements are listed. There is no such exception for expats who reside in Mexico. My view is that people who falsely claim to be tourists when in fact they are residents ... don't really respect Mexico or Mexicans. Typically, I believe they can't meet the requirements of the government so they lie about their stuation. If there were a cheaper and closer country for them to live, I don't think they'd be in Mexico. Not most of them.

Thanks for sharing your opinion regarding my comments.


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## lagoloo

I have a very elderly friend who intends to leave her modest casa plus a minor inheritance (less than $50K U.S.),to her daughter. The daughter lives in the U.S., is bi-lingual and could qualify for being a Spanish teacher for a miniscule salary. She would like to retire in Mexico when her SS pension kicks in (less than the max). They have run the numbers, and with a paid-for house and her pension, she could get by here, but not decently in the U.S. As most know, hers is a common financial pinch and accounts for a number of other expats.

Here's the rub: There is no way she could qualify under the financial rules for temporary or permanent residency. 
Can one of our sticklers for legality suggest any other way she can live here without going the 180 back and forth "tourist" route? Both the mother and daughter would appreciate the answer?


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## Longford

lagoloo, the answer to the question you ask on behalf of the friends is obviously serious and what these people do and how they do it, enter and stay in Mexico, could have detrimental consequences if they don't do it right. It's impossible to say, at this point without knowing a lot of other information I'm certain they wouldn't want to (and shouldn't) share on an open web forum. If friends of mine asked me the same questions I would suggest that they consult an attorney, experienced in immigration matters, located in their destination city in Mexico. _Armchair_ legal advice is fine to toss about in these discussions, but once the matter takes-on more seriousness for someone ... I usually suggest seeking professional/competent legal advice to rely upon - because it's rare that any two circumstances will be similar.


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## TundraGreen

lagoloo said:


> I have a very elderly friend who intends to leave her modest casa plus a minor inheritance (less than $50K U.S.),to her daughter. The daughter lives in the U.S., is bi-lingual and could qualify for being a Spanish teacher for a miniscule salary. She would like to retire in Mexico when her SS pension kicks in (less than the max). They have run the numbers, and with a paid-for house and her pension, she could get by here, but not decently in the U.S. As most know, hers is a common financial pinch and accounts for a number of other expats.
> 
> Here's the rub: There is no way she could qualify under the financial rules for temporary or permanent residency.
> Can one of our sticklers for legality suggest any other way she can live here without going the 180 back and forth "tourist" route? Both the mother and daughter would appreciate the answer?


Perhaps the daughter could get a job offer with a language school before coming to Mexico, then they could qualify her for a visa.


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## Isla Verde

TundraGreen said:


> Perhaps the daughter could get a job offer with a language school before coming to Mexico, then they could qualify her for a visa.


If she's truly bilingual, she might be able to teach both English and Spanish, something which would make her an attractive job candidate to a language school.


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## lagoloo

Not likely. The daughter is, essentially, already near retirement age and not likely to be hired by anyone. But that isn't really the issue. Let's just say she is just getting ready to collect her SS and has no hire-able options for purposes of this discussion.

And, since she obviously doesn't have either the income or assets to qualify under the financial regs, my question is serious, but mainly addressed to the sticklers who would suggest she attempt to do the impossible. A lawyer or immigration consultant can't change the law. As far as I'm informed, there are only two ways to reside in Mexico: (1) meet the financial requirements or (2) hopscotch back and forth on a deceptive basis as a "tourist".

I feel a lot of empathy for the people who have been here for years, think of it as "home", can't afford to get by decently in the U.S. on the money they have or who can't come to live in Mexico on what is plenty for a Mexican family, but "not enough" by a long shot for an immigrant. 

I have my green card, so this isn't a personal problem, but I do know enough people in the other situation that I just wonder what they will do if they have to return to the states. Live in a trailer in Quartsite on the utility-free desert slab? If you've ever driven through there, you know how grim that is. Mexico used to be a solution. That was then. I don't expect anything to change, no matter how I feel about it........just a little rant I needed to get off my chest after reading all the posts on the subject.


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## Isla Verde

lagoloo said:


> Not likely. The daughter is, essentially, already near retirement age.


That doesn't mean that she couldn't find work in Mexico as a language teacher.


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## lagoloo

Isla Verde said:


> That doesn't mean that she couldn't find work in Mexico as a language teacher.


If that's the only answer to the problem.........what does she do when she's truly retired? :frusty:


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## TundraGreen

lagoloo said:


> If that's the only answer to the problem.........what does she do when she's truly retired? :frusty:


After four years on a Residente Temporal as an employee, she would be converted to a Residente Permanente without an income qualification. Four years goes by quickly and it sounds like she wants to work to supplement her income for awhile anyway.


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## lagoloo

TundraGreen said:


> After four years on a Residente Temporal as an employee, she would be converted to a Residente Permanente without an income qualification. Four years goes by quickly and it sounds like she wants to work to supplement her income for awhile anyway.


Okay. Let's pretend she doesn't want to work, or can't, or whatever.

The entire point of my post was to point out how basically impossible it is for anyone who doesn't have enough money to qualify for residency in Mexico, to accomplish that these days by being completely open about their intentions. In other words, I have some empathy for those who do the 180 tourist thing if that's the ONLY way they can be here. 
Let's forget about the "job" matter, which is apparently the only other way.

When some posters are going "tsk tsk" from a virtual Ivory Tower about people who do the "tourist" thing for any number of years, I'm going "what else are they going to do?" The alternatives are grim, that's all. Time for me to leave the room, I see.:tape:


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## Isla Verde

lagoloo said:


> Okay. Let's pretend she doesn't want to work, or can't, or whatever.
> 
> The entire point of my post was to point out how basically impossible it is for anyone who doesn't have enough money to qualify for residency in Mexico, to accomplish that these days by being completely open about their intentions. In other words, I have some empathy for those who do the 180 tourist thing if that's the ONLY way they can be here.
> Let's forget about the "job" matter, which is apparently the only other way.
> 
> When some posters are going "tsk tsk" from a virtual Ivory Tower about people who do the "tourist" thing for any number of years, I'm going "what else are they going to do?" The alternatives are grim, that's all. Time for me to leave the room, I see.:tape:


Well, it is a big problem for your friend's daughter. She may not be able to retire in Mexico if she wants to do it strictly above-board. Maybe she should look into retiring in another country where the income requirements for expat retirees are less than they are in Mexico.


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## TundraGreen

lagoloo said:


> Okay. Let's pretend she doesn't want to work, or can't, or whatever.
> 
> The entire point of my post was to point out how basically impossible it is for anyone who doesn't have enough money to qualify for residency in Mexico, to accomplish that these days by being completely open about their intentions. In other words, I have some empathy for those who do the 180 tourist thing if that's the ONLY way they can be here.
> Let's forget about the "job" matter, which is apparently the only other way.
> 
> When some posters are going "tsk tsk" from a virtual Ivory Tower about people who do the "tourist" thing for any number of years, I'm going "what else are they going to do?" The alternatives are grim, that's all. Time for me to leave the room, I see.:tape:


Okay, let's operate on the premise that someone isn't going to work in Mexico and does not meet income or asset tests. 

What are their options? First, although it seems clear to one person that serial tourist visas are illegal, that is not clear to others. So serial tourist visas are one option. 

The other is to go to some other place in the world. There is no guarantee that everyone that wants to live in Mexico should be allowed to do so. Nearly every country restricts immigration in one way or another. Fixed income retirees from the US form a very small fraction of the global supply of people wanting to immigrate to find a better place to live. It is tough for all of them.


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## lagoloo

I can say this because I have already done the above board routine and am a permanent legal resident BUT
The poor souls were talking about are up against different problems. In the particular case, the to-be inherited casa is in Mexico, not Honduras or Costa Rica, etc. If I were in that position, I just MIGHT not go the above-board route, but just MIGHT do what so may others have done in order to cope with the situation. Who knows? Only the Shadow do.
Time will tell.


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## GARYJ65

Isla Verde said:


> If she's truly bilingual, she might be able to teach both English and Spanish, something which would make her an attractive job candidate to a language school.


If we think about a place with a high expat population

Maybe I'm wrong, but how much demand does Spanish lessons have?


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## Isla Verde

GARYJ65 said:


> If we think about a place with a high expat population
> 
> Maybe I'm wrong, but how much demand does Spanish lessons have?


There are many places in Mexico where foreigners go to study Spanish: San Miguel de Allende, Oaxaca, Cuernavaca and Mexico City, to name a few of them.


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## TundraGreen

GARYJ65 said:


> If we think about a place with a high expat population
> 
> Maybe I'm wrong, but how much demand does Spanish lessons have?


There are a dozen schools in Guadalajara offering Spanish lessons. There must be some demand. Probably not so much in Ajijic/Chapala, which is I guess your point.


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## Hound Dog

Acrually, there is quite a bit of demand for Spanish language classes in the Chapala/Ajijic área of the Lake Chapala región but that demand is driven by us old goobers retiring to that área thus the demand is primarily for conversational Spanish as in _how much for a kilo of tomatoes_. 

My wife, educated in Latin language fundamentals in France. has quite a good command of the Spanish language but lacks the skills needed to write a formal business letter in Spanish adhering to the local rules of the game. She approached a very popular Ajijic language school where she was received graciously and requested the unorthodox product of a course, either in a classroom or under a private tutor, in Spanish/Mexican business letter writing which she needs for her formal written communications with Mexican governmental functionaries to perform her volunteer business duties. She never heard from them again as this was apparently way beyond their capacity as a conversational tutor for old foreign farts dining out or hailing a taxi. 

These Lake Chapala language schools are a really bad joke if one wishes to get beyond _como se llama usted. _


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## Melody11

Please point to the section of the current INM regulations where the exceptions to the residency requirements are listed. There is no such exception for expats who reside in Mexico. My view is that people who falsely claim to be tourists when in fact they are residents ... don't really respect Mexico or Mexicans. Typically, I believe they can't meet the requirements of the government so they lie about their stuation. If there were a cheaper and closer country for them to live, I don't think they'd be in Mexico. Not most of them.

Thanks for sharing your opinion regarding my comments.

--------

dear "longford", I mostly agree with your post, but this time I made another expierence!
hello everybody. I realy like this forum and enjoin reading different fews on any subject. So thanks everybody!

I travelled in 2007 trough Mexico and got stocked in B.C. Since I am german I came first with the tourist visa. After I figured, that I really like it. I went to the immigration in Rosarito . THEY told me to apply for another extension for again 180 days, so as a tourist and sendet me to TJ. This was happend 3 times! Since my income and home was in Germany! I fit the reqirements, ut they wont you to stay 3 times on FFM and than I got my FM3. So I was legal in the country and not illegal how you assumed and compared to illegal mexcicans in US. It would be illegal, if the alien in Mexico wouldnt apply ANY visa!(this would be very disrespectfull aswell , I agree). 
For a FFM you need to have an adress in Mexico, this is what the mexican gov wont to know I believe. Also an health insurance they asked for and a return ticket, beside of they asked for my income. Without an FM3 you do not get a bank account in Mexico, aswell you can not buy anything with downpayments (official), no property pp. This is mexican law and can not be compared to any other countries. And it is possible aswell, that they handle different countries - different on the same subject?.greetings to all of you happy expats in Viva Mexico!


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## MCMS

*Update income requirements please*

Would someone be willing to post a source of the current income / asset requirements for moving to Mexico? 

(I've spent hours looking on line, read a dozen pages of this thread, and explored the inm.gob.mx site as much as I can with limited spanish (and their limited translate to English options).


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## MCMS

I found a good up-to-date site, which also links to an official site. This explains the financial requirements for becoming a temporary or permanent resident in Mexico.

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post the link on this forum so I'll list the info. 

The Google search term that worked for me was "2014 financial requirements immigration mexico"

The information I gathered is this:

To be a permanent resident you must show
--Monthly income of $2588 for individual, or approx $3800 for a couple. OR
--Show that your average monthly balance in your bank account for the past 12 months is around $125,000 OR
--Show that you own property in Mexico, and half of the normal income requirement listed above.
(One source said that if your house is not worth more than $195,000 then you don't get the income break.)


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## RVGRINGO

MCMS said:


> I found a good up-to-date site,......................................
> 
> To be a permanent resident you must show
> --Monthly income of $2588 for individual, or approx $3800 for a couple. OR
> --Show that your average monthly balance in your bank account for the past 12 months is around $125,000 OR
> --Show that you own property in Mexico, and half of the normal income requirement listed above.
> (One source said that if your house is not worth more than $195,000 then you don't get the income break.)


That information is generally obsolete. The amount is closer to $2900 USD and varies with the exchange rate. It is the amount for an individual. There is no rate for couples and ownership of property is not considered.
However, once one person gains a visa in Mexico, the spouse is eligible to apply for similar status.
Lately, it has been reported that bank banlances may be ignored unless you can show a retirement pension. 
Things are still changing and government websites are always behind the times, and reality.


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## chicois8

or this site:

How to Move to M?xico


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## Isla Verde

chicois8 said:


> or this site:
> 
> How to Move to M?xico



Another excellent source of up-to-date information for those contemplating a move to Mexico.


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## Puertodise

MCMS said:


> Would someone be willing to post a source of the current income / asset requirements for moving to Mexico?
> 
> (I've spent hours looking on line, read a dozen pages of this thread, and explored the inm.gob.mx site as much as I can with limited spanish (and their limited translate to English options).


I received this email with requirements, directly from the Consulate Office in Washington, D.C.

Provided that you both are US citizens, a married couple and that you will not gain employment or engage in profitable activities, following are the requirements to get temporary resident visas:

Following are the requirements to get temporary visas:
•	Fill out the visa application form. 
•	Apply at the Consular Section in person (2827 16th St. NW, Washington, DC 20009) from 8:30 to 11:30 am, Monday through Friday, except holidays. 
•	Original passport and one copy of the pages containing personal information, photograph of bearer, expiration date and extensions. 
•	One front view color passport size photo, without eyeglasses and white background.
•	Original and copy of the document that proves that the applicant is a legal resident in the USA if he/she is a foreigner.
•	Payment of the consular fee: $36.00 (Exact change, VISA or MASTERCARD). 
•	Proof of economic solvency: 

Original and copy of documents showing that the applicant has a bank account or investments with a balance of at least $95,892.00 US dollars after taxes during the previous 12 months. 

*OR*

Original and copy of documents showing that the applicant has had a pension or monthly income of $2,000.00 US dollars after taxes during the previous 6 months. 

Additionally, in order to prove economic solvency on behalf of your spouse:

Original and copy of documents showing that you have a bank account or investments with a balance of at least $1,600.00 US dollars after taxes during the previous 6 months.

*OR*

Original and copy of documents showing that you have a pension or monthly income of $550.00 US dollars after taxes during the previous 6 months. 

SPOUSE
•	Fill out the visa application form. 
•	Apply at the Consular Section in person (2827 16th St. NW, Washington, DC 20009) from 8:30 to 11:30 am, Monday through Friday, except holidays. 
•	Original passport and one copy of the pages containing personal information, photograph of bearer, expiration date and extensions. 
•	One front view color passport size photo, without eyeglasses and white background.
•	Original and copy of the document that proves that the applicant is a legal resident in the USA if he/she is a foreigner.
•	Payment of the consular fee: $36.00 (Exact change, VISA or MASTERCARD). 

*Original and copy of marriage certificate.*

Visas Department
Consular Section
Embassy of Mexico, Washington, DC


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## Tucson

Hiya Playa said:


> I received this email with requirements, directly from the Consulate Office in Washington, D.C.
> 
> Provided that you both are US citizens, a married couple and that you will not gain employment or engage in profitable activities, following are the requirements to get temporary resident visas:
> 
> Following are the requirements to get temporary visas:
> •	Fill out the visa application form.
> •	Apply at the Consular Section in person (2827 16th St. NW, Washington, DC 20009) from 8:30 to 11:30 am, Monday through Friday, except holidays.
> •	Original passport and one copy of the pages containing personal information, photograph of bearer, expiration date and extensions.
> •	One front view color passport size photo, without eyeglasses and white background.
> •	Original and copy of the document that proves that the applicant is a legal resident in the USA if he/she is a foreigner.
> •	Payment of the consular fee: $36.00 (Exact change, VISA or MASTERCARD).
> •	Proof of economic solvency:
> 
> Original and copy of documents showing that the applicant has a bank account or investments with a balance of at least $95,892.00 US dollars after taxes during the previous 12 months.
> 
> *OR*
> 
> Original and copy of documents showing that the applicant has had a pension or monthly income of $2,000.00 US dollars after taxes during the previous 6 months.
> 
> Additionally, in order to prove economic solvency on behalf of your spouse:
> 
> Original and copy of documents showing that you have a bank account or investments with a balance of at least $1,600.00 US dollars after taxes during the previous 6 months.
> 
> *OR*
> 
> Original and copy of documents showing that you have a pension or monthly income of $550.00 US dollars after taxes during the previous 6 months.
> 
> SPOUSE
> •	Fill out the visa application form.
> •	Apply at the Consular Section in person (2827 16th St. NW, Washington, DC 20009) from 8:30 to 11:30 am, Monday through Friday, except holidays.
> •	Original passport and one copy of the pages containing personal information, photograph of bearer, expiration date and extensions.
> •	One front view color passport size photo, without eyeglasses and white background.
> •	Original and copy of the document that proves that the applicant is a legal resident in the USA if he/she is a foreigner.
> •	Payment of the consular fee: $36.00 (Exact change, VISA or MASTERCARD).
> 
> *Original and copy of marriage certificate.*
> 
> Visas Department
> Consular Section
> Embassy of Mexico, Washington, DC


''

Excellent resource recommendation! The Washington, D.C. Mexican Embassy/Consulate is the BEST source for information on both temporary and permanent visa requirements. Our own local Mexican Consulate office does not measure up to the Washington, D.C. site. We were able to print out the English version of the many ways to satisfy the financial requirements and then had all we needed to discuss this with our local (non-Washington, D.C.) consulate office. 

Hiya Playa hit a home run with this! But, if you need specific info on "permanent " residency visa requirements, do visit the Washington, D.C. (Mexican Embassy) website. It helped in qualifying both of us for permanent residency by using a combination of the various income sources to accomplish this. 

Thank you, Hiya Playa!!!!


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## adoborepublic

I like the website as well. Some info are from 2010, I wonder if the rules are still the same.

Edit: I meant this.....


chicois8 said:


> or this site:
> 
> How to Move to M?xico


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## RVGRINGO

Immigration rules changed in 2012. Those changes also made for changes in automobile temporary importation, deposits, renewal notifications, etc.


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## sirenius

*backround check*

i posted a question here,but it disapear..does anyone know about the backround checks in mexico and that are they made? i read that now 2014 many americans with old crimes are turned away.many people have been sent back home at cancun airport. any idea what is happening?


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## sparks

If they require a background test .... it will be for the consulate in your home country. Not an airport in Mexico


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## chicois8

sirenius said:


> i posted a question here,but it disapear..does anyone know about the backround checks in mexico and that are they made? i read that now 2014 many americans with old crimes are turned away.many people have been sent back home at cancun airport. any idea what is happening?



If you just scroll down the index page you will see your post.......


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