# Britain leaving the EU



## Guest (Mar 10, 2013)

If Great Britain decided to leave the EU, would expats have the right to vote under the 15 year rule. If the answer is yes, would many be bothered to register to vote, or exercise their right to do so.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Well we vote, here and a postal vote for the U.K.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

I haven't voted in the UK since I left about 28 years ago, and I don't think I should be entitled to either!
I would like to be able to vote in the general elections here though


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I haven't voted in the UK since I left about 28 years ago, and I don't think I should be entitled to either!
> I would like to be able to vote in the general elections here though


that's exactly how I feel

this is my home, not the UK - I feel I should have the right to vote here - not there


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2013)

I totally agree with you, but coming out of the EU could have serious consequences for many of the expats. Obviously we don't know if the government has plans for expats and there is always the possibility the referendum won't happen, but many expats that I know, keep asking the question,what could become of our health care. There is the 15 year rule. Out of the millions of expats throughout Europe, only a few thousand have registered to vote in a General Election.is that because the majority don't want to vote, or they do not know of the 15 year rule.
I have made Spain my home, but I am still a British citizen and that won't change.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> that's exactly how I feel
> 
> this is my home, not the UK - I feel I should have the right to vote here - not there



I pay a lot of tax in the U.K., whilst I pay this tax I feel that I should have some form of control over the way the dastards spend it, the vote is the only means which I can resort to. 

I do not have the right to vote in the Spanish National elections, nor the Cabildo elections, just the local Ayuntamiento. However I can vote in the European elections in both countries.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Tejeda said:


> I totally agree with you, but coming out of the EU could have serious consequences for many of the expats. Obviously we don't know if the government has plans for expats and there is always the possibility the referendum won't happen, but many expats that I know, keep asking the question,what could become of our health care. There is the 15 year rule. Out of the millions of expats throughout Europe, only a few thousand have registered to vote in a General Election.is that because the majority don't want to vote, or they do not know of the 15 year rule.
> I have made Spain my home, but I am still a British citizen and that won't change.


The only 15 year rule I know about is that I can vote in U.K. national, elections for fifteen years after leaving my last residence on the electoral role.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Tejeda said:


> I totally agree with you, but coming out of the EU could have serious consequences for many of the expats. Obviously we don't know if the government has plans for expats and there is always the possibility the referendum won't happen, but many expats that I know, keep asking the question,what could become of our health care. There is the 15 year rule. Out of the millions of expats throughout Europe, only a few thousand have registered to vote in a General Election.is that because the majority don't want to vote, or they do not know of the 15 year rule.
> I have made Spain my home, but I am still a British citizen and that won't change.


Why would they be concerned about healthcare ? They'd have to leave if the UK left the EU. As would all the EU citizens in the UK.


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2013)

As it is right now, you can't return to the UK and get healthcare if you are a resident in another EU state. You have to re qualify, That surely is a concern!
You have just highlighted the point I was making. Perhaps expats should be voting in any referendum, provided they have the opportunity through the 15 year rule which was my original question


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

gus-lopez said:


> Why would they be concerned about healthcare ? They'd have to leave if the UK left the EU. As would all the EU citizens in the UK.


I'm confused. Why would we have to leave Spain if the UK left the EU? We'd still be in Europe just not the 'economic' grouping. 

Wouldn't most of the rules still apply? Isn't it like not being in the Euro Zone but still in the EU?

_[I think I've still got a lot to learn...]_


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

gus-lopez said:


> Why would they be concerned about healthcare ? They'd have to leave if the UK left the EU. As would all the EU citizens in the UK.


It wouldn't happen like that, there is far too much money and international cooperation for it to be viable to send all UK citizens home and vice versa. The EU wont just cancel the employment of their UK workers and I would even guess that they couldn't do it legally.
Everything will essentially be very similar, in much the same way as Norway is not in the EU.

It's just not how it will work.


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## Leper (May 12, 2010)

Let's keep the conversation real. There is as much chance of the UK leaving the EU as I have of winning Miss Teen Venezuela and I am male in my 60's.

It might be an 'in' thing to say with the way the economies of Ireland, Spain, Greece, Italy are performing. But, the bottom line is:- the UK needs the EU and the EU need the UK.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Hepa said:


> I pay a lot of tax in the U.K., whilst I pay this tax I feel that I should have some form of control over the way the dastards spend it, the vote is the only means which I can resort to.
> 
> I do not have the right to vote in the Spanish National elections, nor the Cabildo elections, just the local Ayuntamiento. However I can vote in the European elections in both countries.


Yes, I can understand that if you still have ties to the place (other than sentimental ones I mean) you'd be interested in voting, but I have no financial nor legal ties to the UK - never did and probably never will now.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Pazcat said:


> It wouldn't happen like that, there is far too much money and international cooperation for it to be viable to send all UK citizens home and vice versa. The EU wont just cancel the employment of their UK workers and I would even guess that they couldn't do it legally.
> Everything will essentially be very similar, in much the same way as Norway is not in the EU.
> 
> It's just not how it will work.


No & that is what is wrong. That is exactly how it should work. If you are out you are out ,full stop , then you negotiate to come back in like Norway. No negotiations before just borders shut, no flights , trade , nothing. Then you start from there. That's how it should be & they should ensure that it happens like that. 
It is like any country who is considering leaving or possibly could be expelled. They can then see that there will be a period when they have no trade , flights, anything,with anyone in the EU .
Yes I agree , it won't happen so then why is anyone worried about what will happen if nothing is going to ?


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## RichTUK (Oct 15, 2012)

gus-lopez said:


> then you negotiate to come back in like Norway. No negotiations before just borders shut, no flights , trade , nothing.



Norway is a little different though, like Switzerland and Iceland ect, cos of the Schengen Area, so I'm pretty sure people can just come and go as long as they belong to a country with the same agreement.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2013)

Yes, it probably won't happen, but having said that, Many expats are talking about it and worrying about the future. This is an expat site and it is a valid subject to discuss. I am very well aware that 93% of what we worry about never happens. However, there is a rising number of the population in the UK who want us out of Europe and at some point, they will be listened to. Politicians want to get re-elected and playing to the crowd is one way to achieve it!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Tejeda said:


> Yes, it probably won't happen, but having said that, Many expats are talking about it and worrying about the future. This is an expat site and it is a valid subject to discuss.


Yes, it is


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Britain will not leave the E.U., the politicos will fudge the issue. The E.U. will probably self destruct though.


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## RichTUK (Oct 15, 2012)

Hepa said:


> Britain will not leave the E.U., the politicos will fudge the issue. The E.U. will probably self destruct though.


As long as I get to stay in Spain, I don't care what the UK and Cameron do to be honest.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

gus-lopez said:


> Why would they be concerned about healthcare ? They'd have to leave if the UK left the EU. As would all the EU citizens in the UK.


Are you saying that's what _would_ happen or that's what _should_ happen? I can see no reason for thinking either.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Leper said:


> Let's keep the conversation real. There is as much chance of the UK leaving the EU as I have of winning Miss Teen Venezuela and I am male in my 60's.
> 
> .


Ooh, I don't know about that, I have been to Venezuela.


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## AlanS (Jan 1, 2013)

Leper said:


> But, the bottom line is:- *the UK needs the EU* and the EU need the UK.


Hmmm I'm not so sure it does. I also hope the UK does leave the EU to be honest.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2013)

AlanS said:


> Hmmm I'm not so sure it does. I also hope the UK does leave the EU to be honest.



Why!


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## AlanS (Jan 1, 2013)

Tejeda said:


> Why!


£50,000,000 a day (set to rise) membership a little steep methinks.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2013)

AlanS said:


> £50,000,000 a day (set to rise) membership a little steep methinks.


But what do we get for that in detail?


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## AlanS (Jan 1, 2013)

Tejeda said:


> But what do we get for that in detail?


Please tell me!


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2013)

AlanS said:


> Please tell me!


I don't know, just the same as you and everyone else. Coming out may not be the best thing. Plucking figures out of the air, or what you read in the press, may not be the best for Britain. As we are expats, we can only see the benefits to us.coming out has the possibility to be a difficult situation for us. Most expats I know are retired. We have our healthcare in Spain. We were encouraged to do that from the health authorities in the UK. However, if we go back to the UK, we have to re qualify. My original question was to do with having the right to vote in the UK referendum.


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## AlanS (Jan 1, 2013)

Tejeda said:


> I don't know, just the same as you and everyone else. Coming out may not be the best thing. Plucking figures out of the air, or what you read in the press, may not be the best for Britain. As we are expats, we can only see the benefits to us.coming out has the possibility to be a difficult situation for us. Most expats I know are retired. We have our healthcare in Spain. We were encouraged to do that from the health authorities in the UK. However, if we go back to the UK, we have to re qualify. My original question was to do with having the right to vote in the UK referendum.


I may of course have a different opinion if I lived in Spain  and not just hoped to in a few years time.

The UK trades with the EU to a deficit of £50billion each year so the argument that the UK would be worse off is just wrong (not that you are putting that point I may add).

Back to the original topic, it is interesting that those of you who live in Spain do not get to vote in their elections, I assumed that would be the right of those who take permanent residency there.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Tejeda said:


> Yes, it probably won't happen, but having said that, Many expats are talking about it and worrying about the future. This is an expat site and it is a valid subject to discuss. I am very well aware that 93% of what we worry about never happens. However, there is a rising number of the population in the UK who want us out of Europe and at some point, they will be listened to. Politicians want to get re-elected and playing to the crowd is one way to achieve it!


Well, I have to say I don't know what British immigrants think about the UK leaving the EU, I don't know that many, but anyone who is seriously worried about this needs to lie in a darkened room...or simply get out a bit more.

Firstly, it is David Cameron who has stated that there will be a Referendum but only under certain circumstances, such as further treaty changes. There is of course the small matter of the Tories managing to be reelected as a governing majority for this to happen and that will hopefully not be the case. If Osborne continues screwing up the UK economy and UKIP continues its current ascendancy there will be a Labour Government in 2015. UKIP may well split votes and help the Tories lose but it won't form a Government.

Secondly, I'm not so sure that the majority of UK voters want us out of the EU. UKIP is fulfilling the function that the SDP and Lib Dems did in the 1980s...a useful protest vote when the two main Parties are equally disliked. The two issues that upset people are open door immigration and issues of powers of UK Courts -and that last problem has nowt to do with the EU anyway. Sort these out, especially the Romanian/Bulgarian 'invasion' issue and all will settle down. Most UK voters realise that on the whole they have benefitted from EU membership.

Thirdly, if there is such a Referendum, the Tory Party will be split and the global corporations who make money out of the UK being in the EU will bring out their big guns with advertising campaigns that will scare the living daylights out of working people fearful -quite rightly - of job losses and help gain a massive 'Stay In' vote.

Lastly: do so many immigrants really envisage an 'ethnic cleansing' scenario whereby the Guardia Civil will pound on their doors, give them an hour to pack and leave before sealing their pisos, adosados and villas and then handing them over to Spanish families??? Well, some might, including the poor confused souls at a Seminar I attended today which was about the new asset reporting requirement: many didn't seem to understand the basic difference between assets and incomes, others seemed to think it was a plot by the evil Spanish Government to steal savings from British immigrants. So I guess some might rush to fearful conclusions about the PROPOSED referendum....

This is Spain 2013, not Czechoslovakia, Eastern Germany or Poland in the immediate post-war years when mass ethnic cleansing took place, not to mention former Yugoslavia. My advice to the fearful:


Find gin bottle. Pour into glass with ice. Add tonic and lemon or lime slices. Enjoy. Repeat until all worries have meltedd away like spring snow.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

AlanS said:


> I may of course have a different opinion if I lived in Spain  and not just hoped to in a few years time.
> 
> The UK trades with the EU to a deficit of £50billion each year so the argument that the UK would be worse off is just wrong (not that you are putting that point I may add).
> 
> Back to the original topic, it is interesting that those of you who live in Spain do not get to vote in their elections, I assumed that would be the right of those who take permanent residency there.


We can vote in Municipal and EU elections if we are registered as residents and on the local Padron. We can join Spanish political parties -I did.


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## GUAPACHICA (Jun 30, 2012)

gus-lopez said:


> Why would they be concerned about healthcare ? They'd have to leave if the UK left the EU. As would all the EU citizens in the UK.


Hi -absolutely! So, it's high time all British nationals who reside in other EU countries should wake up and smell the coffee -or should that be the tea..? 

I've been doing my best, whilst in the UK -to promote the benefits of continued EU membership whenever the subject's been raised - but, sadly, I've had little success, even amongst members of my own family! IMO, the case for our remaining in the EU is not being made, with any sense of urgency, here in the UK - whilst the opposing voices are being heard loud, clear and very effectively via the British media and in Westminster!

Those of us, here, who believe in the benefits of continued EU membership - and hope to continue to enjoy the right to live, work, retire or study in any of the 27 member states - should become far more vociferous than currently - emailing the press, calls to UK radio 'phone-in programme, petitons, letters to politicians etc.

BTW, this referendum, if it goes ahead, will be held in the UK, *not* in Spain, so however squeamish some expats. here may feel re. voting in UK elections, this particular opportunity to have your say should, IMhO, DEFINITELY be taken!


Saludos,
GC


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## GUAPACHICA (Jun 30, 2012)

AlanS said:


> Hmmm I'm not so sure it does. I also hope the UK does leave the EU to be honest.


Hi - I've met Australians, Americans, New Zealanders and Canadians in Spain, all of whom were either on short-term study or travel visas - with no automatic right to live and work in any of the 27 EU countries! Several, as native English speakers, were keen to find temporary TEFL posts ( almost impossible to achieve, legally) and those who were successful were being paid '_under the counter',_ without legal contracts -so had no access to the Spanish Public Healthcare system or Social Security. Yes, young people can apply, from within the U.S. via a special programme, to become lowly paid 'teaching assistants' in Spanish schools, for one academic year, but how does that compare with the rights of EU citizens to live and work anywhere, temporarily or permanently, across the whole of the EEA? 

i can tell you that the 1000 students from across the EU ( including the UK), who arrive, every year, to study together at the University of Cadiz - courtesy of their EU funded 'Erasmus' grants, would wholeheartedly endorse the benefits of that incredible opportunity - for themselves as individuals and for their own countries, too! I know, because we meet at the weekly 'Intercambio' where such matters are discussed!

I'm one of those who really does believe that Peace between nation-states is much more likely to continue when opportunities exist for their citizens to meet and interact! Erasmus students are highly visible in Cadiz, from Oct. -June, each year. Who would argue that British youngsters should be excluded from such gatherings - and which country would ultimately be the biggest loser..? 

Those OPs. who've argued, on this thread, that British workers would not be sent packing from Spain, should a referendum lead to the UK leaving the EU, may be right - but I doubt it - and I also doubt, very much, that British expat.'autonomos', casual workers, retirees and even students would necessarily feel quite so welcome, especially following a lengthy, 'gloves-off' pre-referendum British media campaign! 

Saludos,
GC


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> T
> 
> Lastly: do so many immigrants really envisage an 'ethnic cleansing' scenario whereby the Guardia Civil will pound on their doors, give them an hour to pack and leave before sealing their pisos, adosados and villas and then handing them over to Spanish families??? Well, some might, including the poor confused souls at a Seminar I attended today which was about the new asset reporting requirement: many didn't seem to understand the basic difference between assets and incomes, others seemed to think it was a plot by the evil Spanish Government to steal savings from British immigrants. So I guess some might rush to fearful conclusions about the PROPOSED referendum....
> 
> ...


Hope ,Mary Hope. 
Some of us hope that the rules will be enforced, as they should , in all Countries & not least the UK. Round 'em up, aim them out.You are either in or you are not. none of this "well we 'll be in for this but not for that & we're only sort of in for something else. " 
If you are out then you are out . None of this , just shuffle a few papers about & make the exit painless. If they vote for out let's make sure that it is an absolute bloodbath , even if it includes me !


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

gus-lopez said:


> Hope ,Mary Hope.
> Some of us hope that the rules will be enforced, as they should , in all Countries & not least the UK. Round 'em up, aim them out.You are either in or you are not. none of this "well we 'll be in for this but not for that & we're only sort of in for something else. "
> If you are out then you are out . None of this , just shuffle a few papers about & make the exit painless. If they vote for out let's make sure that it is an absolute bloodbath , even if it includes me !


I'm really struggling to understand why you think that way. 

What rules do you mean? 

There are loads of non-EU citizens living in Spain - Norwegians particularly around here and the odd American. And the biggest grouping of immigrants in Spain is from South America - which is not part of the EU. 

Why do you think that the UK leaving the EU would result in mass ejection? What rules are you talking about?


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2013)

jimenato said:


> I'm really struggling to understand why you think that way.
> 
> What rules do you mean?
> 
> ...


My original question was, will expats get to vote in a referendum with the 15 year voting rule. 
I have relatives who have lived in Spain since way before the EU and they have prospered. Yes there is concern from many expats about the healthcare issue of the UK coming out of the EU. There is no paranoia, it is just a concern.
If the UK came out of Europe, there would be no mass exodus as many have made Spain their home. 
If we are allowed a vote under the 15 year rule, then those that are concerned about it should get registered when the time arrives. If your not concerned, then doing nothing is their choice.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

jimenato said:


> I'm really struggling to understand why you think that way.
> 
> What rules do you mean?
> 
> ...


Under EU rules you can only live in another EU state if you are an EU citizen. By leaving, the UK, or Scotland voting for independance from the UK or Catalunia from Spain, would become on par with all other countries requiring there citizens to have visas etc to live there. 
In the event of a vote to leave according to the law the citizens of that country would then have no right to be there & should be expelled immediately. I would have no problems with that & would expect it to be the case. 
In addition the country voting to leave haveing done so should then deport forthwith all & every EU citizen as they no longer have the right to be their as it is no longer an EU state.
Whilst it might be ideal & what all the politicians think that they can negotiate an orderly exit & end up outside under the terms of the EEA , which is what Norway etc; are under it should not be so. It should be out & then negotiate starting from scratch & hoping that the EU or whoever actually wants you ! 

Norway & the other European Economic Area (EEA ) countries were not in the EU & have negotiated agreements to allow them to trade , live, work etc; so that basically they have a large amount of the benefits without too much of the grief. 
The EU countries are hardly likely to want to allow the UK to leave full membership , & paying in as a net contributor, having negotiated EEA concessions before leaving! 
I don't think so; no country in there right mind is going to accept that.
Norway aside from the other EEA countries has a different relationship with Spain as they have reciprocal arrangements , regardless of the EU , allowing the citizens of each country to live , work & VOTE in each others countries.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Fair enough.

Am I right in thinking that you see mass deportations (as opposed to a more measured and reasonable solution) as a good thing? 

If so, why?


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2013)

gus-lopez said:


> Under EU rules you can only live in another EU state if you are an EU citizen. By leaving, the UK, or Scotland voting for independance from the UK or Catalunia from Spain, would become on par with all other countries requiring there citizens to have visas etc to live there.
> In the event of a vote to leave according to the law the citizens of that country would then have no right to be there & should be expelled immediately. I would have no problems with that & would expect it to be the case.
> In addition the country voting to leave haveing done so should then deport forthwith all & every EU citizen as they no longer have the right to be their as it is no longer an EU state.
> Whilst it might be ideal & what all the politicians think that they can negotiate an orderly exit & end up outside under the terms of the EEA , which is what Norway etc; are under it should not be so. It should be out & then negotiate starting from scratch & hoping that the EU or whoever actually wants you !
> ...



I don't agree with much of that, there were UK citizens living, working and being retired before the EU existed. Now saying that, your last paragraph is what is important, reciprocal agreements. The government of the day would have to negotiate on behalf of all expats. In the UK, there are thousands of Spanish immigrants who were in the UK before the conception of the EU.
I am allowed to vote in a UK election even though I am a Spanish tax paying resident. All I asked was, will I get a vote in the referendum, if we have one!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

If I thought that my vote would make any difference to anything I might be more upset at being deprived of it. But it won't so I'm not.

I agree, broadly, with Guapa in that supra-national organisations give some hope that international co-operation could help defuse tension and bring about some kind of peace in the world but the record of the UN and its predecessor the League of Nations give the lie to that. In spite of left-wing beliefs to the contrary, national and cultural factors rule, not abstract notions of 'brotherhood' and 'internationalism'. History ancient and modern testifies to that sad but all-to-true fact.

I'm in favour of the EU...but not *this *EU. The EU as we know it is not about 'free movement of peoples' and other such internationalist aspirations. It's a free market organisation dedicated to increasing profits of multi-nationals by allowing them to cut unit production costs by implementing labour laws which aim at lowering wages and reducing any power or control working people have over their lives. I was a candidate for the European Parliament at the time when Maastricht was on the point of being implemented, resulting in the Single European Act which allowed for free movement of capital, goods and labour. Labour candidates were at that time against this, seeing it for what it was, a device to introduce cheap credit and cheap labour to the member states. Banks and employers benefited from thsi policy.
We've all seen the results: the cheap credit that led to the current crises in Spain, Greece and elsewhere, the mass migration of Eastern Europeans to richer EU states which has in many cases devastated the local economies of these poorer states by exporting their most productive people. In the UK we have seen communities transformed without any consultation with local people, pressure on health and education services, lowering of wages and an increase in racism and xenophobia.
I am in favour of a united Europe...but a 'social' Europe, a unity with an economic policy based on social market principles and dedicated to increasing the security and prosperity of the working people of Europe. If we are true social democrats, pragmatic small-c conservatives or whatever, we should be working towards this. The freedom of students, middle-class academics, retirees from wealthier EU member states, should not be the organising principle of any union of free nations.

Like most things in life, the EU bottom line is money. The real question should be in whose interests this wealth-creating organisation should be run.
Currently it's not in mine or I suspect those of most posters on this forum.


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## AlanS (Jan 1, 2013)

mrypg9 said:


> I'm in favour of the EU...but not *this *EU.


:clap2: Spot on!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Looking back at a sentence from Guapa's post: there is no automatic right for EU citizens to work in other EU states - it is subject to quotas which each member state may choose to apply, should it wish. So the UK and ROI were the only states to allow unrestricted immigration in 2004 to former socialist bloc states.

One might wonder why......and ask who has got the most benefit from this 'open door' policy...
One could also consider why other richer EU states imposed restrictions...perhaps to protect wages and living standards for their own citizen-workers, regardless of race or ethnicity?


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

jimenato said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> Am I right in thinking that you see mass deportations (as opposed to a more measured and reasonable solution) as a good thing?
> 
> If so, why?


Yes ,they are the rules. 
How can you have a measured & reasonable solution when you are going to be asked to leave anyway ? 

Tejeda ,I've no idea whether you'll be allowed to vote.If it is along the lines of the general election ones then yes.


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2013)

gus-lopez said:


> Yes ,they are the rules.
> How can you have a measured & reasonable solution when you are going to be asked to leave anyway ?
> 
> Tejeda ,I've no idea whether you'll be allowed to vote.If it is along the lines of the general election ones then yes.


No, you won't be asked to leave. You may be asked to contribute to the system,but removing all expats, the fragile economy would collapse and I think all locals know that. Even in the UK, there is a need for a certain amounts of immigration, better controlled I may add.

My original question was about the vote in a referendum. I guess that is a little premature, I am only making it a point of discussion.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

And I don't even live in Europe


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

gus-lopez said:


> Yes ,they are the rules.
> How can you have a measured & reasonable solution when you are going to be asked to leave anyway ?
> 
> Tejeda ,I've no idea whether you'll be allowed to vote.If it is along the lines of the general election ones then yes.


Actually I don't think there are any rules that have been drawn up with regard to a state leaving the EU. 

You haven't said why you think mass deportations would be a good thing. I would say that a good interim policy would be to allow those who are resident to stay while reciprocal policies like those of Norway are drawn up or people apply for visas. 

I can see no advantage to anyone of totally unnecessary mass deportations and all the social and economic upheaval that would cause.

You said in a previous post



> In addition the country voting to leave haveing done so should then deport forthwith all & every EU citizen as they no longer have the right to be their as it is no longer an EU state.


I would have thought that a country leaving the EU would be allowed to make up it's own mind about who it should allow to live there. What would it have to do with the EU?

I don't know where you're coming from in all of this - I don't think you've really thought it through....


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

jimenato said:


> Actually I don't think there are any rules that have been drawn up with regard to a state leaving the EU.
> 
> You haven't said why you think mass deportations would be a good thing. I would say that a good interim policy would be to allow those who are resident to stay while reciprocal policies like those of Norway are drawn up or people apply for visas.
> 
> ...


If the UK voted to leave then there would be no reason for the EU to be helpful, quite the opposite really. 
Yes there are no rules for leaving but there are rules for joining. By voting to leave you are no longer a member , therefore the rules to join would now apply.

Why would any EU country wish to allow UK citizens to remain ? Especially as there contribution to the EU budget would have to be greatly increased to make up for the shortfall if the UK pulled out.

From an EU point of view if the UK voted to leave I would personally cut off all trade with it instantly until new agreements were drawn up sometime in the future. Just like the UK did to the commonwealth countries when agreeing to join initially,Leaving them adrift & out on a limb.

In all honesty the UK should never have been allowed in on an ad-hoc basis . It should have been all of it , including the euro or none of it.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Well you seem to be making a lot of assumptions - as I understand it it's not even clear that if Scotland leaves the UK it would be required to leave the EU as well nor that the remainder of the UK would be allowed to stay in. 

I see no reason why the EU would want to cut all ties with a major trading partner and I don't even see any reason why a vote would actually be binding and certainly not executable immediately. It the UK were to vote to leave the EU I would envisage a long (possibly years) period to allow as painless a transition as possible - the kind of excision you envisage would be extremely damaging to everyone. 

Remember there is no mechanism to expel a member state so even if there were a vote to leave it would theoretically be up to the UK to say when they were leaving and to make arrangements to do so in as orderly a fashion as possible.

Anyway I don't imagine for one moment that the UK will leave the EU - it's about as likely as Scotland leaving the UK so there's not much point in speculating further.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

gus-lopez said:


> If the UK voted to leave then there would be no reason for the EU to be helpful, quite the opposite really.
> Yes there are no rules for leaving but there are rules for joining. By voting to leave you are no longer a member , therefore the rules to join would now apply.
> 
> Why would any EU country wish to allow UK citizens to remain ? Especially as there contribution to the EU budget would have to be greatly increased to make up for the shortfall if the UK pulled out.
> ...


How can we say what would happen in the very unlikely event of the UK leaving the EU? There is the small matter of the Tories winning an election before talk can be translated into action, you know

When you say '*I'* would cut off all trade... is that what you think those who determine the export policy of BMMW, Siemens, Krupp, Mercedes, Harimbo and all the other exporters would do? Note I've only mentioned the German exporters, if I went through all 27 member states listing their companies which export to the UK I'd be sitting here all night.

The UK did not just cut off all trade with Commonwealth countries. There are many trading links between the UK and all Commonwealth countries as well as between other EU and many Commonwealth states. But many Commonwealth countries have forged other more valuable trading links since the UK joined the EU.


As someone pointed out, people have been buying property and working in Spain long before Spain joined the EU. I know of two friends who bought property here in the 1970s. We used to spend the summers in one of their fincas in Ibiza before Spain joined the EU. There were very many British immigrants living and working in Ibiza and no doubt elsewhere at that time. British people work all over the world and own property in non-EU states.

It seems that the chief worry for immigrants is the health care issue. That would affect me too. But harsh as this may sound, the availability of 'free' health care should always be seen as 'iffy'. It was certainly never a central preoccupation in my mind, merely a thought that some day I might not have access to this for whatever at that time unknown reason. It's what often happens 'abroad'. I had a friend who found that every time she and her husband moved for work reasons to a foreign country either civil war or invasion took place..She began to take it personally......
We took out private insurance to cover that eventuality. Maybe the decision to move permanently abroad should never take the availability of free health care into account when planning.

As for the euro...not signing up was one sensible thing for which we can credit Gordon Brown. At least the UK has control over its currency, even if that power has reduced our expected income by over 30%


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2013)

gus-lopez said:


> If the UK voted to leave then there would be no reason for the EU to be helpful, quite the opposite really.
> Yes there are no rules for leaving but there are rules for joining. By voting to leave you are no longer a member , therefore the rules to join would now apply.
> 
> Why would any EU country wish to allow UK citizens to remain ? Especially as there contribution to the EU budget would have to be greatly increased to make up for the shortfall if the UK pulled out.
> ...


Interesting you say that when Gatwick Airport is Spanish owned!


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

I have read that there is mechanism and procedure within the bureaucracy of the E.U. regulations for any member state wishing to leave, to leave.

The U.K. is not the only state considering its options, Greece, Italy, Finland and Germany are considering their individual positions within the E.U.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Hepa said:


> I have read that there is mechanism and procedure within the bureaucracy of the E.U. regulations for any member state wishing to leave, to leave.
> 
> The U.K. is not the only state considering its options, Greece, Italy, Finland and Germany are considering their individual positions within the E.U.


Interesting.....Where did you read that?

Every time I visit Germany or France I am struck by the enthusiasm for the EU. Hostility to the euro and the current EU economic policy, yes. But hostility to the EU...no.

States such as France, Germany, Poland and so on have bitter memories of past European history. They see the EU as more than aneconomic entity. So might we if we had experienced a brutal war fought on our territory.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Tejeda said:


> Interesting you say that when Gatwick Airport is Spanish owned!


Heathrow actually and others but Ferrovial sold Gatwick to the Americans. But the point you make is a valid one. Europe has huge trade ties with the UK in both directions. In the unlikely event of the UK leaving the EU it would not be in anyone's interests to resort to dummy spitting.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

I rather like the comment of that great PM Clement Attlee when asked about the Common Market:

*The Common Market. The so-called Common Market of six nations. Know them all well. Very recently this country spent a great deal of blood and treasure rescuing four of 'em from attacks by the other two*.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Interesting.....Where did you read that?
> 
> .


In the U.K. press, but darned if I can remember which.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Tejeda said:


> Interesting you say that when Gatwick Airport is Spanish owned!


They don't . That is owned by Global Infrastructure Partnership. Ferrovial own heathrow , glasgow, southampton & Aberdeen.
They purchased 7 when taking over Baa but the monopolys lot made them sell off some. Gatwick went in 2009 , Edinburgh last year & Stansted went in january.


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## expatmat (Feb 12, 2013)

Hepa said:


> I pay a lot of tax in the U.K., whilst I pay this tax I feel that I should have some form of control over the way the dastards spend it, the vote is the only means which I can resort to.
> 
> I do not have the right to vote in the Spanish National elections, nor the Cabildo elections, just the local Ayuntamiento. However I can vote in the European elections in both countries.


taxation without representation...didn't we have a war over that some time in the past?


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## expatmat (Feb 12, 2013)

mrypg9 said:


> Every time I visit Germany or France I am struck by the enthusiasm for the EU. Hostility to the euro and the current EU economic policy, yes. But hostility to the EU...no.


Concur wholly with this. Even the semi-bankrupt PIIGS are very pro-EU (but not necessarily the Troika that props up its financial system)

Britain will never leave the EU, this is just posturing by politicians and certain daily rags to look tough and exploit latent xenophobia. The City and big business will never let it happen.


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2013)

gus-lopez said:


> They don't . That is owned by Global Infrastructure Partnership. Ferrovial own heathrow , glasgow, southampton & Aberdeen.
> They purchased 7 when taking over Baa but the monopolys lot made them sell off some. Gatwick went in 2009 , Edinburgh last year & Stansted went in january.


Okay, Gatwick was wrong, my apologies, but my point still applies.


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## GUAPACHICA (Jun 30, 2012)

HI - here's a BBC News 'Politics' article, published in Jan. this year, 2013.

The title is '_BritaIn and the E.U. Better off out than in? _' i found it to be very informative!

BBC News - UK and the EU: Better off out or in?

Saludos,

GC


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## IanB (Feb 11, 2013)

mrypg9 said:


> Interesting.....Where did you read that?
> 
> Every time I visit Germany or France I am struck by the enthusiasm for the EU. Hostility to the euro and the current EU economic policy, yes. But hostility to the EU...no.
> 
> States such as France, Germany, Poland and so on have bitter memories of past European history. They see the EU as more than aneconomic entity. So might we if we had experienced a brutal war fought on our territory.


Perhaps my friend you should consider and ask those people of Coventry, Birmingham, the Black Country, London, Portsmouth and other places about the war fought on their own territory. Essentially Coventry was wiped out in one night and yes as a lad I used to play on the bombsites and the rubble of the schools that had disappeared during daylight raids with children in them. So I believe it was a terrible time for all involved and should have never been allowed to happen but a number of so called altruistic institutions like the International Red Cross, the Vatican et al all turned a blind eye until it was far too late. Many have never forgiven and I rememeber well the landlord of the first pub I drank in who had been (it turned out) a prisoner of the Japanese for four years. He never forgot and he never forgave, throwing every Japanese person out of his pub on sight. You also mentioned Clement Attlee, the likes of whom I wished we had now. I recently read of his alliance with Winston Churchill and his beliefs against the appeasers of the government of the day.

As regards the EU I won't comment further because it raises my blood pressure. Suffice it to say that I worked on two multi nation, multi partner projects as an engineer ( physics projects) for the Technical Commission. I blew the whistle in the end on the large sums of money which were "disappearing" from the project budgets. A significant part into a black hole within the British Establishment and to a lesser extent elswhere. It has become my belief that Britain is the most corrupt country in the world, albeit it is done in the nicest gentlemanly "public school" way. The investigation opened a can of worms which went very high up the food chain in the british Establishment certainly and my wife and I have paid a terrible price for that action including being denied access to health care, being forcibly assigned to that death house known as Stafford Hospital when I needed help, career destroyed, health destroyed and my family having to emigrate to be under the protection of a nation outside the "EU". It went even further downhill when a Scotsman became head of unit at what became OLAF ( was the old Anti Fraud Administration Unit) whose sole interest in ;life was to protect the gravy train particularly in Britain.

So yes, the EU, from bitter experience of the Brits involved at very high levels raises my blood pressure.

regards


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2013)

IanB said:


> Perhaps my friend you should consider and ask those people of Coventry, Birmingham, the Black Country, London, Portsmouth and other places about the war fought on their own territory. Essentially Coventry was wiped out in one night and yes as a lad I used to play on the bombsites and the rubble of the schools that had disappeared during daylight raids with children in them. So I believe it was a terrible time for all involved and should have never been allowed to happen but a number of so called altruistic institutions like the International Red Cross, the Vatican et al all turned a blind eye until it was far too late. Many have never forgiven and I rememeber well the landlord of the first pub I drank in who had been (it turned out) a prisoner of the Japanese for four years. He never forgot and he never forgave, throwing every Japanese person out of his pub on sight. You also mentioned Clement Attlee, the likes of whom I wished we had now. I recently read of his alliance with Winston Churchill and his beliefs against the appeasers of the government of the day.
> 
> As regards the EU I won't comment further because it raises my blood pressure. Suffice it to say that I worked on two multi nation, multi partner projects as an engineer ( physics projects) for the Technical Commission. I blew the whistle in the end on the large sums of money which were "disappearing" from the project budgets. A significant part into a black hole within the British Establishment and to a lesser extent elswhere. It has become my belief that Britain is the most corrupt country in the world, albeit it is done in the nicest gentlemanly "public school" way. The investigation opened a can of worms which went very high up the food chain in the british Establishment certainly and my wife and I have paid a terrible price for that action including being denied access to health care, being forcibly assigned to that death house known as Stafford Hospital when I needed help, career destroyed, health destroyed and my family having to emigrate to be under the protection of a nation outside the "EU". It went even further downhill when a Scotsman became head of unit at what became OLAF ( was the old Anti Fraud Administration Unit) whose sole interest in ;life was to protect the gravy train particularly in Britain.
> 
> ...


Well, Like you I am old enough to remember the war damage in a large north east city. It has been etched on my mind from being a young boy. I pray my children, grandchildren never have to endure that in their lifetimes.

With the EU, we have the opportunity to stop wars within Europe. In the past, we all used to argue or fight for individual values, but now we have the opportunity to work through them. It is something we all need to work at. Nothing in life ever came easy for me and life is like that. Not everything within the EU is perfect. Our politicians and bureaucrats need to work harder on our behalf. The credit crunch highlighted the problems we are all having. 

We as humans haven't learnt from history. There have been financial crashes in the country as long as people have been taxed. had we learned, we may not now be in a mess. Hopefully, following the last world war, we have learned something from history that war just brings death and destruction.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

IanB said:


> Perhaps my friend you should consider and ask those people of Coventry, Birmingham, the Black Country, London, Portsmouth and other places about the war fought on their own territory. Essentially Coventry was wiped out in one night and yes as a lad I used to play on the bombsites and the rubble of the schools that had disappeared during daylight raids with children in them. So I believe it was a terrible time for all involved and should have never been allowed to happen but a number of so called altruistic institutions like the International Red Cross, the Vatican et al all turned a blind eye until it was far too late. Many have never forgiven and I rememeber well the landlord of the first pub I drank in who had been (it turned out) a prisoner of the Japanese for four years. He never forgot and he never forgave, throwing every Japanese person out of his pub on sight. You also mentioned Clement Attlee, the likes of whom I wished we had now. I recently read of his alliance with Winston Churchill and his beliefs against the appeasers of the government of the day.
> 
> As regards the EU I won't comment further because it raises my blood pressure. Suffice it to say that I worked on two multi nation, multi partner projects as an engineer ( physics projects) for the Technical Commission. I blew the whistle in the end on the large sums of money which were "disappearing" from the project budgets. A significant part into a black hole within the British Establishment and to a lesser extent elswhere. It has become my belief that Britain is the most corrupt country in the world, albeit it is done in the nicest gentlemanly "public school" way. The investigation opened a can of worms which went very high up the food chain in the british Establishment certainly and my wife and I have paid a terrible price for that action including being denied access to health care, being forcibly assigned to that death house known as Stafford Hospital when I needed help, career destroyed, health destroyed and my family having to emigrate to be under the protection of a nation outside the "EU". It went even further downhill when a Scotsman became head of unit at what became OLAF ( was the old Anti Fraud Administration Unit) whose sole interest in ;life was to protect the gravy train particularly in Britain.
> 
> ...


I don't need to ask anyone about the last World War. I lost a father I never knew, two Uncles, one in Operation Market Garden, one on the Thousand Bomber Raid on Hamburg. My father died after being wounded during the siege of Malta. Our house was destroyed by being hit by a plane shot down over the Channel just before I was born. Another Uncle lost a leg on the Rhine.
So no condescending lessons abour the effects of war, please.

Yes, those places you mentioned suffered, as did Southampton, Plymouth, Bristol, Portsmouth and other places, whose bomb damage I remember well as most of it was there until the 1960s. But even this in no way compares to the damage inflicted on Warsaw, Rotterdam, Belgrade and many other European cities. Far too many UK civilians and soldiers were killed in that terrible war but their number is small compared to the loss of life of the French, Dutch, Polish, Russian and many other peoples. Suffering is suffering and no one nation can claim a monopoly.

I'm not sure what all this has to do with the European Union in 2013 apart from the fact that in the eyes of the majority of Europeans of all nations, anything which helps prevent another disaster of that magnitude must surely be welcomed.

Agree with you about Clement Attlee, though. The most underrated PM of all British history. I owe all I have today to my Mum amd that Labour Government 1945 - 1950.


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## IanB (Feb 11, 2013)

Not meant to be condescending at all. Just pointing out that despite the current fashion of Britian apologising for everything under the sun, much suffering was also meted out to ordinary people here as well. Many of my own family served, were wounded and killed in that last conflict including Arnhem, as was the toll on many many other families.

However I too have been Labour through and through and have only twice not voted Labour in any election. To use my vote I take as a civic responsibility. That was all born through my grandparents who fought for the real Labour Party NOT as it has become. Hi-jacked by middle class academics of little integrity. They also fought in the cause of Universal Suffrage from the time when even not all men had the vote let alone women. It has to be remembered that the Labour banner and slogan of the time was "if you don't work, you don't eat!" However the rider to that was that they took on board the responsibility to provide meaningful valued work at a proper living wage for all those capable and welfare and proper healthcare for those that needed it. Plus, certainly in my own home town it was a Labour councillor ex Barnardos boy, who in 1922 founded a free grammar school for working class children because education was the key to a sound future. The principles of that is NOT the Labour Party, so called "New Labour", of today. As regards comments on the EU a look at the current troubled scene and then the Maastricht Treaty plus the Lisbon Treaty, particularly the appendices to the latter will tell you exactly where an awful lot of the root causes actually lie.

regards


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

IanB said:


> Not meant to be condescending at all. Just pointing out that despite the current fashion of Britian apologising for everything under the sun, much suffering was also meted out to ordinary people here as well. Many of my own family served, were wounded and killed in that last conflict including Arnhem, as was the toll on many many other families.
> 
> However I too have been Labour through and through and have only twice not voted Labour in any election. To use my vote I take as a civic responsibility. That was all born through my grandparents who fought for the real Labour Party NOT as it has become. Hi-jacked by middle class academics of little integrity. They also fought in the cause of Universal Suffrage from the time when even not all men had the vote let alone women. It has to be remembered that the Labour banner and slogan of the time was "if you don't work, you don't eat!" However the rider to that was that they took on board the responsibility to provide meaningful valued work at a proper living wage for all those capable and welfare and proper healthcare for those that needed it. Plus, certainly in my own home town it was a Labour councillor ex Barnardos boy, who in 1922 founded a free grammar school for working class children because education was the key to a sound future. The principles of that is NOT the Labour Party, so called "New Labour", of today. As regards comments on the EU a look at the current troubled scene and then the Maastricht Treaty plus the Lisbon Treaty, particularly the appendices to the latter will tell you exactly where an awful lot of the root causes actually lie.
> 
> regards


Ian, you and I don't have much to disagree about. I began to grow away from Labour when Neil Kinnock stepped down. Neil, whom I met many times when I was a Parliamentary candidate, knew my story...it was so like his . I remember that wonderful speech to the Welsh Labour Party...'Why am I the only Kinnock to go to University.,, and so on. 
Mind you, I was a great fan of Tony Blair...because he won and I'd had eighteen years and three election defeats. All that leafletting, canvassing...all in vain.
Then the shine wore off.
My family taught me that rights went with responsibilities, that those who were able to should work. My selective education gave me a start in life and gave the lie to those -mainly middle-class people - who complain that grammar schools gave a ladder only to the selected few working-class pupils: I used my education to campaign for those less fortunate than myself.

And of course I agree with you about how the people of Great Britain suffered in WW2...when my mum used to take me shopping to Southampton as a child the bomb damage was shocking. When I was at University there was still bomb damage visible in London.
But since the fall of the Soviet Union much evidence has come to light about the appalling suffering of the peoples of Belorus, Ukraine and Wesren Russia that was previously almost unknown outside the USSR. I have just read a book, 'Bloodlands', by Timothy Snyder that I recommend to those interested in such matters. Before a shot was fired fourteen million people had died in those lands between 1933 and 1939 at the hands of Hitler and Stalin.


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## expatmat (Feb 12, 2013)

It's worth remembering that since the formation of the EU, there have been zero wars between its members.


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## IanB (Feb 11, 2013)

How strange that is mrypg9. I met Neil Kinnock only last year in South Wales. He was making a T.V. programme about his earlier days and those of his family at a museum we were visiting. To tell the truth the toilets were locked and being on the dreaded pills etc. However he appeared with a key saying that he needed to go as well. We walked down that drive and I said "Its Lord Kinnock isn't it?". "No" he said as put his arm on my shoulder, "I much prefer Neil". We then talked about my grandparents and the early movement as he did about his roots. Very down to earth indeed and to be respected.

You will see from an earlier post why I get so heated about the EU, so I tend in many ways to stay away from the politics of it all because there is good and very bad on both sides of the argument. However, what I am very much in favour of is the nations of Europe to work closely together in an atmosphere of respect for each other and each others' cultures and heavy co-operation (on all fronts) to improve the lives of all of its citizens. It is a sad fact however that vested interests on all fronts will prevail and revolution and radicalism across the centuries always but always levels down to the lowest common denominator. My fear is that unless a grip is made on the economic crisis, Europe will disintegrate and history will repeat itself. If a single currency is to survive, in myview it is essential that every effort should be made to equalise the economies of the Northern European richer nations and those of the poorer Southern nations. In fact these are fundamental requirements under both the later treaties which Brussels has failed to address and allowed disparate economies to join the single currency thereby breaking their own rules.

regards


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## IanB (Feb 11, 2013)

Sorry but definite senior moment. I have just been reminded SWMBO that is was 2011 when we went on that visit to South Wales and that it is now 2013. Doh! ROTFL


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## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

I just want to add that Swansea was blitzed as well.......230 killed!


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## IanB (Feb 11, 2013)

XTreme said:


> I just want to add that Swansea was blitzed as well.......230 killed!


Yes a lot of damage was done there and were they not looking to destroy Pembrey?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

IanB said:


> How strange that is mrypg9. I met Neil Kinnock only last year in South Wales. He was making a T.V. programme about his earlier days and those of his family at a museum we were visiting. To tell the truth the toilets were locked and being on the dreaded pills etc. However he appeared with a key saying that he needed to go as well. We walked down that drive and I said "Its Lord Kinnock isn't it?". "No" he said as put his arm on my shoulder, "I much prefer Neil". We then talked about my grandparents and the early movement as he did about his roots. Very down to earth indeed and to be respected.
> 
> You will see from an earlier post why I get so heated about the EU, so I tend in many ways to stay away from the politics of it all because there is good and very bad on both sides of the argument. However, what I am very much in favour of is the nations of Europe to work closely together in an atmosphere of respect for each other and each others' cultures and heavy co-operation (on all fronts) to improve the lives of all of its citizens. It is a sad fact however that vested interests on all fronts will prevail and revolution and radicalism across the centuries always but always levels down to the lowest common denominator. My fear is that unless a grip is made on the economic crisis, Europe will disintegrate and history will repeat itself. If a single currency is to survive, in myview it is essential that every effort should be made to equalise the economies of the Northern European richer nations and those of the poorer Southern nations. In fact these are fundamental requirements under both the later treaties which Brussels has failed to address and allowed disparate economies to join the single currency thereby breaking their own rules.
> 
> regards


Yes, he is a really lovely man. I had a couple of photos taken with him when I was PPC and it looks like a family shot, not a photo for political purposes...it just looks so natural. Sadly they got lost as these things often do.

I can see I'm going to enjoy your posts, yours and Tejeda's, and Neilmac's..and well, nearly everyone's..


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## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

IanB said:


> Yes a lot of damage was done there and were they not looking to destroy Pembrey?


Think it was the docks and oil refinery they wanted Ian.

Reminds me of an old joke that used to be said back in the sixties.....
....."The Nazis blitzed Maesteg and totally flattened the whole town. Nothing left standing. Damage was estimated at around a fiver".


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