# Fresh ideas.



## BlueStaff (Nov 11, 2015)

Hi Everyone, Please could someone advise, thinking of coming to live in Spain possibility of buying a home and letts. Lots of concerns and just dipping toe in at the moment. How have things changed out there with the economy etc. The area we would look at would be Malaga area, there is a lot of info on this site so much to go through....thank you. Does anyone recommend primary and secondary in Allhuran de la Torre? Yes they are the same old questions but would be nice to have a fresh up do date opinion of living in Spain.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

BlueStaff said:


> Hi Everyone, Please could someone advise, thinking of coming to live in Spain possibility of buying a home and letts. Lots of concerns and just dipping toe in at the moment. How have things changed out there with the economy etc. The area we would look at would be Malaga area, there is a lot of info on this site so much to go through....thank you. Does anyone recommend primary and secondary in Allhuran de la Torre? Yes they are the same old questions but would be nice to have a fresh up do date opinion of living in Spain.


The most important thing to know about Malaga Province is that ne in three people of working age is jobless.
Since unemployment has been high for the past six years, nothing has changed.
My opinion of living in Spain: very enjoyable if you have an adequate income to be able to enjoy fully all that Spain has to offer.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

BlueStaff said:


> Hi Everyone, Please could someone advise, thinking of coming to live in Spain possibility of buying a home and letts. Lots of concerns and just dipping toe in at the moment. How have things changed out there with the economy etc. The area we would look at would be Malaga area, there is a lot of info on this site so much to go through....thank you. Does anyone recommend primary and secondary in Allhuran de la Torre? Yes they are the same old questions but would be nice to have a fresh up do date opinion of living in Spain.


Letting property in Spain has been discussed elsewhere on the forum quite recently, my opinion is that if you want to let out property, you are better off letting out UK property. Not everyone completely agreed with me though.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Chopera said:


> Letting property in Spain has been discussed elsewhere on the forum quite recently, my opinion is that if you want to let out property, you are better off letting out UK property. Not everyone completely agreed with me though.


Having rented out properties in the UK and abroad (not Spain) I would do neither.
When people talk about renting their properties they often forget all the hassle and expenses....tax on your rental income, agency fees, insurances, repairs and maintenance...
One rogue tenant finished us...we sold. Banked the money after having a good holiday.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

I rent out in the UK and don't enjoy being a landlord one bit. I make money but that's because I bought the property without borrowing, the people I know who do BTL with loans are making next to nothing. They're hoping for gains in value of property, and whilst I expect they will get some, one has to recognise that many properties popular with the BTL crowd are worth about as much now as they were 8 years ago across much of the UK.

I know people in Spain who spent money on apartments and townhouses in prime areas such as a block or two away from the beach in popular resorts. They are very successful in renting them out short-term for holidays. They make more (better yield) from 12 weeks a year than I do for 52 weeks a year in the UK, and that's with all expenses taken into account. Some of the properties are rented for 30 weeks of the year. But, none of them expect the growth in value that they could get in the UK.

Long-term lets in Spain, in my view, aren't worth the money. Yields are lower than the UK and with not much chance in value growth, and I believe there is more chance of hassles, although i have no personal experience of that.

Letting can be fine, in both places, but as mentioned, one rogue tenant is all it takes....


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Horlics said:


> I rent out in the UK and don't enjoy being a landlord one bit. I make money but that's because I bought the property without borrowing, the people I know who do BTL with loans are making next to nothing. They're hoping for gains in value of property, and whilst I expect they will get some, one has to recognise that many properties popular with the BTL crowd are worth about as much now as they were 8 years ago across much of the UK.
> 
> I know people in Spain who spent money on apartments and townhouses in prime areas such as a block or two away from the beach in popular resorts. They are very successful in renting them out short-term for holidays. They make more (better yield) from 12 weeks a year than I do for 52 weeks a year in the UK, and that's with all expenses taken into account. Some of the properties are rented for 30 weeks of the year. But, none of them expect the growth in value that they could get in the UK.
> 
> ...


All very true. 
I think though that inexperienced people imagine that all you have to do is buy a Spanish property and collect your rental income. They are blissfully unaware of the tax implications, the costs of managing the holiday lets if you are not on site and the work involved if you are, the community fees, IBI, risk of rogue tenants -people on a two-week holiday are less likely to treat your property with kid gloves, as my Spanish neighbour discovered when he decided to rent his very nice villa to British holiday makers this summer...
I do the washing/ironing for my son and dil when they visit their property for weekend breaks and it's a chore, even if they do take us out to dinner.....but they would anyway.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

mrypg9 said:


> people on a two-week holiday are less likely to treat your property with kid gloves, as my Spanish neighbour discovered when he decided to rent his very nice villa to British holiday makers this summer...


Yes, which is why I would only let my place out if I wasn't going to use it myself. I wouldn't want to get "home" after the summer and see what had been done to the place. 

And then, if buying a place solely to let out with a view to moving in myself after a few years, I would have to build up a gut-it-and-fix-it fund. More money off any profit.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Horlics said:


> I rent out in the UK and don't enjoy being a landlord one bit. I make money but that's because I bought the property without borrowing, the people I know who do BTL with loans are making next to nothing. They're hoping for gains in value of property, and whilst I expect they will get some, one has to recognise that many properties popular with the BTL crowd are worth about as much now as they were 8 years ago across much of the UK.
> 
> I know people in Spain who spent money on apartments and townhouses in prime areas such as a block or two away from the beach in popular resorts. They are very successful in renting them out short-term for holidays. They make more (better yield) from 12 weeks a year than I do for 52 weeks a year in the UK, and that's with all expenses taken into account. Some of the properties are rented for 30 weeks of the year. But, none of them expect the growth in value that they could get in the UK.
> 
> ...


Don't holiday lets have higher agency fees? I've heard anything up to 30%, depending on property type and how much cleaning needs to be done between tenants. Also I believe there are tax breaks in Spain if you rent long term to people under 35, but I agree that it can be a load of hassle in general.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Chopera said:


> Don't holiday lets have higher agency fees? I've heard anything up to 30%, depending on property type and how much cleaning needs to be done between tenants. Also I believe there are tax breaks in Spain if you rent long term to people under 35, but I agree that it can be a load of hassle in general.


I don't know anybody who pays 30%. Only 1 person I know uses an agency and pays 22%, but that's a total service, from the marketing on the Internet, handling books, meet and greets, and cleaning.

The rest I know use their own local cleaners (independent, not companies) and handle the website advertising themselves, although there are fees associated with that.

I know one person who started to advertise on Airbnb last year and when listing was asked to specify a cleaning fee which is itemised separately when people book. She listed the fee as an addition to what she always charged before, and which included cleaning, and yet people seem willing to pay it as an extra on that site.

Bottom line is, the yields are better than I get on a UK let. But they've been doing this for years and have therefore built up repeat business which sees them achieving better than 50% occupancy across a year.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Chopera said:


> Don't holiday lets have higher agency fees? I've heard anything up to 30%, depending on property type and how much cleaning needs to be done between tenants. Also I believe there are tax breaks in Spain if you rent long term to people under 35, but I agree that it can be a load of hassle in general.


I rent several properties (long-term) yet didn't know about this. Three of my current tenants are less than 35 and yet my tax adviser has never mentioned this.

Note to self - mention this next time tax returns are due!


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

I have rented out in both countries and I would only do it in the UK now. Agents in Spain never vet tenants, if you are not in the country they charge an arm and a leg for simple tasks like changing a gas bottle. Pre Internet days it was a 1000 pesetas for a short fax. If holiday lets things always going missing or broken. 

UK has a housing shortage Spain, especially the Costas has a massive surplus. There has also been high capital gain in most of the UK. even northern towns. According to a friend if you rent a modest house and year profit is less than £10,000 then it does not have to be declared on tax. I know when we rented out it is easy to understate profits with wear and tear and other creative accounting. Of course there can be rogue tenants but with a good agent who vets and inspects regularly there is less chance. Potential is much higher to get non payers in tourist areas as there is so much flotsam and jetsam moving around. Also expensive to get rid of non payers.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

snikpoh said:


> I rent several properties (long-term) yet didn't know about this. Three of my current tenants are less than 35 and yet my tax adviser has never mentioned this.
> 
> Note to self - mention this next time tax returns are due!


The only reason it was fresh in my mind was that my brother in law rented a flat to someone under 35 and because no income tax was due, he didn't declare it. Hacienda found out and he's been hammered with a fine for several thousand euros, even though he didn't owe any tax. On top of that, he had an agreement with the tenant that they pay the community fees. When the tenant left he was presented with another bill for several thousand euros because the tenant hadn't paid anything for years and the community hadn't bothered telling by brother in law.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Isobella said:


> I have rented out in both countries and I would only do it in the UK now. Agents in Spain never vet tenants, if you are not in the country they charge an arm and a leg for simple tasks like changing a gas bottle. Pre Internet days it was a 1000 pesetas for a short fax. If holiday lets things always going missing or broken.
> 
> UK has a housing shortage Spain, especially the Costas has a massive surplus. There has also been high capital gain in most of the UK. even northern towns. *According to a friend if you rent a modest house and year profit is less than £10,000 then it does not have to be declared on tax.* I know when we rented out it is easy to understate profits with wear and tear and other creative accounting. Of course there can be rogue tenants but with a good agent who vets and inspects regularly there is less chance. Potential is much higher to get non payers in tourist areas as there is so much flotsam and jetsam moving around. Also expensive to get rid of non payers.


If it's your only UK income then you don't have to pay tax on it if it's less than the income tax threshold, but if you've been sent a tax return form you still need to declare it. Several years ago I stopped receiving a UK tax return form because my profits on my UK property were beneath the income tax threshold and the tax man wasn't interested. Then a couple of years ago I started receiving tax return forms again, so I started declaring it again. I have a feeling this might be related to the upcoming changes that will allow countries to view your financial data in other countries, without asking permission.

Generally I haven't had many problems renting out UK property - I just pay an agent 10% commission for full management. Oddly enough, the least hassle property to rent out has been student houses. All they need is cheap furniture that can be replaced every few years, along with a lick of paint every couple of years. They are generally the least demanding type of tenant, and I'm not bothered about them damaging cheap furniture. The yields are higher as well.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

My friend must be mistaken then she is in full time work and higher rate taxpayer. Agree about the student flats, friends bought a lovely London apartment, furnished it with White sofas, quality flooring etc. as a BTL. Someone they knew bought 4 run down houses for less and have higher returns.


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## el romeral (May 8, 2012)

BlueStaff said:


> Hi Everyone, Please could someone advise, thinking of coming to live in Spain possibility of buying a home and letts. Lots of concerns and just dipping toe in at the moment. How have things changed out there with the economy etc. The area we would look at would be Malaga area, there is a lot of info on this site so much to go through....thank you. Does anyone recommend primary and secondary in Allhuran de la Torre? Yes they are the same old questions but would be nice to have a fresh up do date opinion of living in Spain.


Regarding the education in Alhaurin De La Torre, my two girls have completed their secondary education in the last 2-3 years. Both attended Gerald Brenan in Alhaurin. It is apparently considered to be the best secondary school in, what is, quite a prosperous town. 
I felt the standard of schooling was rubbish. Poor quality teachers, no resources, very old fashioned teaching methods, ridiculous choices of subjects, hopeless sport facilities etc etc. There is also the business of so many pupils repeating years due to failing some exams (often relatively few exams). Some classes contained several pupils who were repeating and were only there because they had to be, not because they wanted to be - some were about 20 years old when they left, still with no qualifications lol. This caused disruption and was a distraction for those trying to learn. Both girls would have done way better in the UK and I will forever feel guilt for depriving them of that chance. Spanish was not the issue, as they were age 2 and 3 when we moved here in 1999, so were completely bilingual. Neither have continued in Spain, the youngest is studying art in Inverness and the oldest is working offshore in Qatar.
When they were younger both girls attended El Pinar, a private school in Alhaurin. It was far from perfect, but, with hinsight, better than what they went to.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

el romeral said:


> Regarding the education in Alhaurin De La Torre, my two girls have completed their secondary education in the last 2-3 years. Both attended Gerald Brenan in Alhaurin. It is apparently considered to be the best secondary school in, what is, quite a prosperous town.
> I felt the standard of schooling was rubbish. Poor quality teachers, no resources, very old fashioned teaching methods, ridiculous choices of subjects, hopeless sport facilities etc etc. There is also the business of so many pupils repeating years due to failing some exams (often relatively few exams). Some classes contained several pupils who were repeating and were only there because they had to be, not because they wanted to be - some were about 20 years old when they left, still with no qualifications lol. This caused disruption and was a distraction for those trying to learn. Both girls would have done way better in the UK and I will forever feel guilt for depriving them of that chance. Spanish was not the issue, as they were age 2 and 3 when we moved here in 1999, so were completely bilingual. Neither have continued in Spain, the youngest is studying art in Inverness and the oldest is working offshore in Qatar.
> When they were younger both girls attended El Pinar, a private school in Alhaurin. It was far from perfect, but, with hinsight, better than what they went to.


Regarding your comments about repeating a year, I agree it can be disruptive and is difficult for all concerned - teachers, students and the repeaters who must be bored out of their minds, but maybe I'm mistaken, you seem to think this is something particular to this school when this is the way all state secondary schools operate. Students are required to repeat when they haven't reached the required level in certain subjects and a certain number of subjects, by law. As you can imagine it's all written down and very carefully stipulated. If you wanted for some bizarre reason to repeat, you wouldn't be allowed to.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Isobella said:


> ... There has also been high capital gain in most of the UK. even northern towns.


I think the amount of gain in the UK market is over estimated. It's easy to see why, it's London and the South East pushing up the averages. Furthermore, gains have been higher on detached and semi-detached houses, whereas gains on terraces and flats have been minimal or negative in some places.

That said, I would not for a moment dispute that the UK is a better bet for gains than Spain.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

So, I just so happen to have the entire Land Registry database on one of my machines. It has every transaction from England and Wales since 1995. Here's a little peek at a couple of northern places. NE is Newcastle, CA is Carlisle.

Newcastle first. Detached and flats are lower now than in 2007. Terraced, about the same, and semis the only one showing any real movement, but not much.

Carlisle. Everything cheaper now than 8 years ago, with the exception of terraced, which are about the same.

In all cases, any gain has underperformed a FTSE 100 tracker fund if dividends are included. Underperformed horribly.

At least it leaves room for a staggering improvement over the next few years!

(2015 - The database includes this year up to the end of August)


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Of course there will be some losers if you are cherry picking but overall most places are doing well. Even Birmingham is booming.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Some places are booming, but cherry picking I am not. If you go to:

CA postcodes, Carlisle

And then

NE postcodes, Newcastle upon Tyne

You'll see that the info I selected covers a wide band across the top of England. NE and CA are the main towns but they include all the surrounding areas.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

In this area: B postcodes, Birmingham

That's the whole of Birmingham and outskirts, the following results:

Detached 345 now 381 - 10.5%
Flat 169 now 188 - 11.4%
Semi 194 now 222 - 14.4%
Terraced 155 now 186 - 20%

Outperformed by the FTSE 100 in all but one case (terraced) and then there's that nasty CGT to contend with.

But yes, much better returns in Birmingham.

But cherry picking, no. When you said "northern towns" I thought you meant northern towns. not the midlands.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

If you want Northern take a look. Sheffield up 5%. York up more. Newcastle up. Yes there are losers such as Bradford, Middlesborough (no surprise there!) but generally the trend is up in the majority of places. They rent too.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/470864/Sept_2015_HPI.pdf


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Up 5%. Jeez. Even the 15 ish % performances I mentioned work out at about 1.5% a year when it's compound interest you look at. I tell you, when people are talking up 15% over 8 years it shows you how bad things are.

As for "Newcastle up", yes, 2014 and 2015 have been up almost everywhere, but most investors are in for more than a year or two.

Look, I agree with you, the UK is a better bet than Spain when talking about property, a much better bet. All I am saying is, it hasn't, over the last few years, been a great performer.

I actually do think the next few years are going to be good, it'll perform better than it has for the last 8. It needs to. On the report you linked, the two northern regions show a -0.3% (east) decrease and a +2.5% increase (west). That's not fab.


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## EdofWigan (Jun 28, 2015)

My experience of the UK market is good and the rent:equity returns are both good. 
(House prices: What to expect - news and predictions | This is Money)

But it is not for the 'Arms Length' investor, it really needs to be a case of a good 'Hands on' approach. Although, costly problems can still occur. 

I would be very interested in hearing from folk here who have real and direct experience of Resident Landlord experience of Air BnB, I am sure we must have some


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

EdofWigan said:


> My experience of the UK market is good and the rent:equity returns are both good.
> (House prices: What to expect - news and predictions | This is Money)
> 
> But it is not for the 'Arms Length' investor, it really needs to be a case of a good 'Hands on' approach. Although, costly problems can still occur.
> ...


I opened a new thread dedicated to Air B&B
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...ng-spain/952746-airb-b-spain.html#post9099058


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