# Freelance taxation if I am not a tax resident, but EU citizen



## Unoman (Dec 16, 2012)

Hi All,

I am currently living in Russia(a Russian citizen), sometime back I've got a EU(Estonian) passport as a descendant. Planning to move to Spain and further travel across the EU, learning new languages and cultures. I like living in a country around 3-6 month and then move further.

My work is a remote consultant for the company in the US(through oDesk).

Since I want to stay with my family in Spain more than 3 month, I read that I have to get a residence card, but as a sub-requirement for that I have to have a job or "sufficient resources not to become a burden for a social system". At the same time I read that if I live less than 6 month in a EU country I do not become a tax resident, and thus do not need to pay taxes there...

This is my point of concern, how can I provide a proof of "sufficient resources" and at the same time not to pay taxes? which document I should provide in this case?

I am getting around 2500-3000 eur per month, and the only proof I have is an account on odesk and some prints from my online bank...

I also have a wife(non-EU) and a daughter(EU).
1) Is this amount normal to live in the EU(have never been there)
2) Which taxes I should pay(if I should)
3) Which documents do they ask when I apply to the residence card?

Thanks in advance everyone!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Unoman said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I am currently living in Russia(a Russian citizen), sometime back I've got a EU(Estonian) passport as a descendant. Planning to move to Spain and further travel across the EU, learning new languages and cultures. I like living in a country around 3-6 month and then move further.
> 
> ...



:welcome:

1.that amount should be sufficient for registering as resident for the three of you
2. as a resident of Spain you would have do declare WORLDWIDE assets & income - & pay any tax due (you'd need a tax expert to tell you how much)
3. you need to show proof of funds, in the form of bank statements usually, and proof of healthcare provision

have a look at this thread - the poster is in a similar situation http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...823-moving-spain-very-soon-advice-please.html


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

Unoman said:


> Since I want to stay with my family in Spain more than 3 month, I read that I have to get a residence card, but as a sub-requirement for that I have to have a job or "sufficient resources not to become a burden for a social system". At the same time I read that if I live less than 6 month in a EU country I do not become a tax resident, and thus do not need to pay taxes there...


You're mixing up two different kinds of residence.

After three months you should register for residence.

Tax residence is a different thing.

In theory you could be resident for the 90 day rule and not tax resident. But if you're family is living in Spain I wouldn't count on this.

I also wouldn't count on the 183 day rule for tax residence. IIRC that's the very last tie breaker in the various tax treaties. Coming last it's the least important.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

NickZ said:


> You're mixing up two different kinds of residence.
> 
> After three months you should register for residence.
> 
> ...


exactly

if he is supporting a family which lives in Spain he will almost certainly be considered tax resident


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## Unoman (Dec 16, 2012)

Thanks for your replies! I am now confused even more.. Where can I read some formal info about these rules that if I support a family I become a tax resident immediately and such things?..

Can anybody give a hint on how much will be the tax, (i.e 3000 eur per month for a family of 3, company in the US pays me to a bank in the us through oDesk/Payoneer) and how many months I am legally able to stay in the Spain without paying taxes?

I think this is called autonomo or something like that. I read about 250$ per month for some social taxes, do they have anything extra?

I wish I could move from country to country without becoming a tax resident there until I decide where I would like to stay at least for several years...


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Unoman said:


> Thanks for your replies! I am now confused even more.. Where can I read some formal info about these rules that if I support a family I become a tax resident immediately and such things?..
> 
> Can anybody give a hint on how much will be the tax, (i.e 3000 eur per month for a family of 3, company in the US pays me to a bank in the us through oDesk/Payoneer) and how many months I am legally able to stay in the Spain without paying taxes?
> 
> ...


autónomo is self-employed - the payment is upwards of 250€ a month -. that's the spanish equivalent of NI - income tax is on top of that

any number of tax companies will tell you that if you are supporting a family in Spain, you will be tax resident - here's one 

Taxes in Spain - Guide to personal taxes in Spain



> Assuming you don't have Spanish citizenship, you're a resident if either:
> 
> 
> You're physically present in Spain for more than 183 days (including sporadic absences).
> ...


and I just noticed that in your first post you said that your wife isn't an EU citizen.... you'd have to be registered as resident in order for her to be registered as your dependent (tax residency aside)


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

Unoman said:


> Thanks for your replies! I am now confused even more.. Where can I read some formal info about these rules that if I support a family I become a tax resident immediately and such things?..
> 
> Can anybody give a hint on how much will be the tax, (i.e 3000 eur per month for a family of 3, company in the US pays me to a bank in the us through oDesk/Payoneer) and how many months I am legally able to stay in the Spain without paying taxes?
> 
> ...



http://www.agenciatributaria.es/AEA...sidentes/Folletos_divulgativos/irnringles.pdf



> Unless there is evidence to the contrary, an
> individual shall be deemed to be a resident of
> Spain if, in accordance with the aforementioned
> criteria, his or her legally non-separated spouse
> ...


Well nothing stops you from vacationing/visiting. But to be visiting you still need to keep your ties to some place else. Which means paying taxes some place else. Kids going to school someplace else. Having a drivers license there. Etc


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

NickZ said:


> http://www.agenciatributaria.es/AEA...sidentes/Folletos_divulgativos/irnringles.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> Well nothing stops you from vacationing/visiting. But to be visiting you still need to keep your ties to some place else. Which means paying taxes some place else. Kids going to school someplace else. Having a drivers license there. Etc


thanks for that link - I thought we had it in the FAQ sticky but couldn't see it

I shall add it now


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## Unoman (Dec 16, 2012)

Thanks for this link, I ll look into this and will try to calculate how much should I pay there.
Although I think I shouldn't pay any taxes if I stay up to 3 months in any EU country, and I heard this as a popular "lifehack" for EU travellers, but this makes me think how do all these guys solve a rent problem? usually everybody want a year long contract - maybe there is some option of rent for such cases since it is pretty popular.
Sorry about asking a question not about taxes - if it will be better I can start a new topic..


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Unoman said:


> Thanks for this link, I ll look into this and will try to calculate how much should I pay there.
> Although I think I shouldn't pay any taxes if I stay up to 3 months in any EU country, and I heard this as a popular "lifehack" for EU travellers, but this makes me think how do all these guys solve a rent problem? usually everybody want a year long contract - maybe there is some option of rent for such cases since it is pretty popular.
> Sorry about asking a question not about taxes - if it will be better I can start a new topic..


if you stay less than 90 days you don't have to register as resident - & wouldn't be 'on the radar' tax wise because you would 'officially' be a tourist

however, if you DON'T register as resident then your wife (as a non-EU citizen) can't live here either

if you want her & your child to live here, you'll just have to bite the bullet, get legal & pay up, I'm afraid

prabably best to start a new thread about renting - though there have been many many threads already about that & there's a section about renting in the FAQs thread


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## Clemmie00 (Jun 10, 2012)

Perhaps I'm taking you up wrong, but why do you think you should avoid paying taxes when the rest of us have to pay them? If you're living in Spain and especially if your child is going to school in Spain, you should pay your tax here. You'd be using public services like everyone else. The last thing Spain needs is another 'taker' who is trying to get out of contributing what they should.


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

Clemmie00 said:


> Perhaps I'm taking you up wrong, but why do you think you should avoid paying taxes when the rest of us have to pay them? If you're living in Spain and especially if your child is going to school in Spain, you should pay your tax here. You'd be using public services like everyone else. The last thing Spain needs is another 'taker' who is trying to get out of contributing what they should.


The rest of us live here full time, I guess ..... and you would be right there. OP however referred in his last post to not paying tax if he lived in a country for up to three months, and I can sort of see the thought process there as he probably wouldnt be a tax resident here then anyway


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Stravinsky said:


> The rest of us live here full time, I guess ..... and you would be right there. OP however referred in his last post to not paying tax if he lived in a country for up to three months, and I can sort of see the thought process there as he probably wouldnt be a tax resident here then anyway


yes, you can see the thought process

except that he wants his non-EU wife & child to live here - & the only way that can happen is if he DOES become resident by registering as such

and if they are living here & he is supporting them, by default he will be tax resident


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## Unoman (Dec 16, 2012)

Hi and thanks everyone again!

"however, if you DON'T register as resident then your wife (as a non-EU citizen) can't live here either" - that is not true - according to the laws of EU, she has same rights as I have, and can stay with me up to 3 month without any issues. However after these 3 month I have to register her & myself there.

The question which is not clear for me - even if I register myself as an autonomo(self-employed) and will pay taxes(254eur+income tax), What should be my income to get the residency? I read that I need to show "sufficient resources" to support my family, but nobody says how much should I get per month per person.. If anybody had similar experience, please tell me the range/amount they would like to see.

Also when I apply for residency, how do they check my income?(for example they will want 5000 eur per month)


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Unoman said:


> Hi and thanks everyone again!
> 
> "however, if you DON'T register as resident then your wife (as a non-EU citizen) can't live here either" - that is not true - according to the laws of EU, she has same rights as I have, and can stay with me up to 3 month without any issues. However after these 3 month I have to register her & myself there.
> 
> ...


yes, she can stay _as a tourist _for up to 90 days - that's not living here


no-one knows exactly how much you need to show - the govt hasn't made any figures public - there are a couple of threads (at least) where posters give their experiences though - look in the FAQs thread - there are links from there


you can't register as autónomo unless you actually have a business in Spain - they check - could you do that & work free-lance for the US company - invoicing them?


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## Unoman (Dec 16, 2012)

xabiachica said:


> you can't register as autónomo unless you actually have a business in Spain - they check - could you do that & work free-lance for the US company - invoicing them?


I am not sure I can invoice anybody.. I am working on oDesk and when I get money I just transfer them to my Payoneer card(which is issued by American bank).
I think I can also transfer funds to my bank account which I can open in Spain, but this will be just a fund transfer, not a paid invoice..

Also - what do you mean by "She ll be able to be a tourist and it is not living there" - What's the difference between living with residence card & living with schengen visa up to 3 months?


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## Unoman (Dec 16, 2012)

I didn't want to offend anybody and I didn't intend to avoid taxes as a goal. All I want to do is to be a little more mobile, I would like to be a "tourist", but to live up to 6 month in a country, just to learn languages a little bit, a culture, and then move further. Since I have a baby - I am a little less mobile then others who don't. I am not going to use social services(My daughter is too little for school  ) and do not want to become a burden for the social system. Once I will understand which country is the best for me - I ll settle down with all the taxes, pension savings and social payments. Of course if I have to pay taxes to stay these 6 months - that's the way I ll follow


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Unoman said:


> I am not sure I can invoice anybody.. I am working on oDesk and when I get money I just transfer them to my Payoneer card(which is issued by American bank).
> I think I can also transfer funds to my bank account which I can open in Spain, but this will be just a fund transfer, not a paid invoice..
> 
> Also - what do you mean by "She ll be able to be a tourist and it is not living there" - What's the difference between living with residence card & living with schengen visa up to 3 months?


Schengen allows her to be here for 90 days - until that time is passed she is officially a tourist (on a loooong holiday) - not a resident in any way or by any legal definition

she wouldn't be able to stay beyond that time without 'residencia' which she can apply for as your spouse - but you would also have to be registered as resident before/at that 90 day point

you could set up a regular transfer of funds to an account here & that would satisfy the income requirements - then you'd all need private health insurance

if you stayed less than 182/365 days then you wouldn't have to declare tax

if questions were asked however - the onus would be on you to prove that you weren't here - so you'd need to keep proof of travel in & out


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## ninjabinger (Dec 13, 2012)

Plan to be in a similar position to the poster on this thread so have a few questions.
UK citizen working in Japan (but online). I plan to move over to Spain for four to five months within a calendar year just renting to see what it is like, and then to come back the next year, buy (or continue to rent) a property, and live in spain for 9-10 months a year, while still 'working' and paying taxes in Japan (and to return to Japan for 2-3 months each year to file my taxes, update visa etc.). 

- So in the first year I wouldn't be eligible for Spanish taxation as it would be less than half a year?
- From the second year on, I would be eligible for Spanish taxes (on top of Japanese taxes, which are unavoidable)... But I wouldn't be able to register as an autonomo because I'm just working for companies, not running a business? Any ideas what tax I might be looking at on about 5000 euros/month (after Japanese tax)? I realize that this will probably require a tax specialist for exact and/or definite answers, but any help from those who've experienced something similar would be good.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

ninjabinger said:


> Plan to be in a similar position to the poster on this thread so have a few questions.
> UK citizen working in Japan (but online). I plan to move over to Spain for four to five months within a calendar year just renting to see what it is like, and then to come back the next year, buy (or continue to rent) a property, and live in spain for 9-10 months a year, while still 'working' and paying taxes in Japan (and to return to Japan for 2-3 months each year to file my taxes, update visa etc.).
> 
> - So in the first year I wouldn't be eligible for Spanish taxation as it would be less than half a year?
> - From the second year on, I would be eligible for Spanish taxes (on top of Japanese taxes, which are unavoidable)... But I wouldn't be able to register as an autonomo because I'm just working for companies, not running a business? Any ideas what tax I might be looking at on about 5000 euros/month (after Japanese tax)? I realize that this will probably require a tax specialist for exact and/or definite answers, but any help from those who've experienced something similar would be good.


you wouldn't need to register as autónomo - but if you are invoicing companies for your work (as opposed to actually being employed on an employment contract) you would be able to


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## ninjabinger (Dec 13, 2012)

ok, so the issue of autonomo status being or not being appropriate for a person working for and being paid by an overseas/non-EU company isn't decisive for whether a.... umm... Well I'm an EU citizen so I can live in Spain anyway... hang on, let me think about what i actually want to ask...

so, generally, there is a third tax-paying option besides (i) having your taxes drawn on a PAYE basis from a Spanish company and (ii) having your taxes sorted out via the autonomo system as an freelance employee/business owner of a Spanish/non-Spanish company?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

ninjabinger said:


> ok, so the issue of autonomo status being or not being appropriate for a person working for and being paid by an overseas/non-EU company isn't decisive for whether a.... umm... Well I'm an EU citizen so I can live in Spain anyway... hang on, let me think about what i actually want to ask...
> 
> so, generally, there is a third tax-paying option besides (i) having your taxes drawn on a PAYE basis from a Spanish company and (ii) having your taxes sorted out via the autonomo system as an freelance employee/business owner of a Spanish/non-Spanish company?


yes - you simply make a tax declaration on your worldwide income each year

if you have paid tax already to a country with a reciprocal agreement with Spain, it's possible that there will be no more to pay (or even a rebate)

if not, then the tax office will tax you


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Unoman said:


> I didn't want to offend anybody and I didn't intend to avoid taxes as a goal. All I want to do is to be a little more mobile, I would like to be a "tourist", but to live up to 6 month in a country, just to learn languages a little bit, a culture, and then move further. Since I have a baby - I am a little less mobile then others who don't. I am not going to use social services(My daughter is too little for school  ) and do not want to become a burden for the social system. Once I will understand which country is the best for me - I ll settle down with all the taxes, pension savings and social payments. Of course if I have to pay taxes to stay these 6 months - that's the way I ll follow


Well, during these six months you may travel on Spanish highways, you may need to call upon the police if by some mischance you are burgled, you will enjoy all the civic amenities of the town where you live with its clean streets, street lights, neat flower beds and so on...and all these are paid for out of taxes.

So as you say, that's the way to follow.


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## ninjabinger (Dec 13, 2012)

Extending on from my earlier question, would I be right to assume that I'd have very little chance of getting a mortgage (of maybe 30-50% of the house value) from a Spanish (or British) bank on a Spanish house in the above situation, i.e. 'working' in Japan but generally living in Spain? (I guess I'd have to ask the banks this...)


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

ninjabinger said:


> Extending on from my earlier question, would I be right to assume that I'd have very little chance of getting a mortgage (of maybe 30-50% of the house value) from a Spanish (or British) bank on a Spanish house in the above situation, i.e. 'working' in Japan but generally living in Spain? (I guess I'd have to ask the banks this...)


I think you'd be hard pressed to get a mortgage no matter what!

Friends have tried for a mortgage - they are both Spanish, full-time teachers but can not get a mortgage anywhere!


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## ninjabinger (Dec 13, 2012)

Yeah? Things are really that bad over there? 100% cash upfront for real estate or no sale possible?


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