# Britain to stop free healthcare for pensioners moving after 31-12-20



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

I haven't seen this anywhere else. Does anyone know more?

https://europestreet.news/uk-ditche...awv_9hiw7R99ywH3-ywMgAD9CrMSGJYbBBlwFtOpGDJAY



> The dream of many British pensioners to retire in a Mediterranean country may be crushed by the new Brexit reality. Under a proposal by the British government, from January 2021 the UK will no longer reimburse healthcare for pensioners who move to EU countries.
> 
> The draft negotiating text on the future relationship with the EU published in May also cuts social security benefits for people who move between the UK and the EU from next year. These benefits include the possibility to receive carer allowances or to aggregate periods of contributions to be entitled to unemployment allowances.
> 
> The proposals concern only people who will move between the UK and the EU after the Brexit transition period, which ends on December 31st, 2020. EU nationals in the UK and British nationals in the EU before that date, and their family members, are protected by the withdrawal agreement and will continue to benefit from the current system. Separate rules, similar to the EU’s, also apply to people moving between the UK and Ireland.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

This has always been on the card, together with the end of UK-issued EHIC for UK residents. So it becomes even more important to relocate to EU by the cut-off date to secure your rights under the withdrawal agreement.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

I’m not surprised at all. This was never about EU etc I’m pretty sure they’ve wanted to stop this for some time. As selfish as it is, I’m just grateful that we are here and covered for our state pension in four years


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Megsmum said:


> I’m not surprised at all. This was never about EU etc I’m pretty sure they’ve wanted to stop this for some time. As selfish as it is, I’m just grateful that we are here and covered for our state pension in four years


I think people are covered for their UK state pension pretty much anywhere they go anyway, provided they have contributed enough.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Except that only in certain countries can they receive annual uplift. They include EEA and Switzerland (but only guaranteed to those who are resident on 31st December 2020), USA, Barbados, Channel Islands, IOM etc but not Canada, Australia or NZ.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

I'd have been surprised if it WAS to be continued.

I think this is just regurgitated 'old news' in the absence of info to the contrary


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Not sure, but I don't think reciprocal health care was ever available to retired people outside of the EU area.

We bought a place in Canada as we thought about retiring there and I seem to remember health care in our old age was a concern.

This just means that anyone thinking of relocating after Brexit is a done deal will have to think very carefully if they can afford to. After all, moving to live in another country isn't a human right. Like Rolls Royces, homes in Mayfair and Vueve Cliquot, it's now going to be for those who can afford to do so.

We've been the lucky ones.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Chopera said:


> I think people are covered for their UK state pension pretty much anywhere they go anyway, provided they have contributed enough.


No, I meant in regards to having health care covered and the pension uplifted in line with inflation


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

Joppa said:


> Except that only in certain countries can they receive annual uplift. They include EEA and Switzerland (but only guaranteed to those who are resident on 31st December 2020), USA, Barbados, Channel Islands, IOM etc but not Canada, Australia or NZ.


Which begs the question what about those Spanish citizens who retire to the UK after 31st December 2020 and
of course those British citizens who have been living & working in Spain ( and paying into the Spanish State Pension 
scheme ) for many years but for one reason or another intend to retire or spend the final years of their life living
in the UK and return to live in the UK sometime after 31/12/2020.

Do I take it the Spanish government will likewise freeze their pension ( because they are no longer resident in 
Spain or even a member state of the EU, EEA, EFTA or Switzerland ) from being entitled to any form of uplift 
in their Spanish State Pension, after becoming a permanent resident in the UK ?


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## Pipeman (Apr 1, 2016)

Trust me, BoJo hasn't thought this far ahead...


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Williams2 said:


> Which begs the question what about those Spanish citizens who retire to the UK after 31st December 2020 and
> of course those British citizens who have been living & working in Spain ( and paying into the Spanish State Pension
> scheme ) for many years but for one reason or another intend to retire or spend the final years of their life living
> in the UK and return to live in the UK sometime after 31/12/2020.
> ...



Who knows? Only the Spanish govt.


Istr that one reason that this isn't unexpected is that there's no reason for a reciprocal agreement, because the number of Spanish who retire to live the UK can almost be counted on your fingers.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Point is, this benefit came with membership of the EU.

So no EU membership for the UK, no reciprocal health care in any EU member state. 
Not just Spain.

Simples.


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

mrypg9 said:


> *Not sure, but I don't think reciprocal health care was ever available to retired people outside of the EU area.*
> 
> We bought a place in Canada as we thought about retiring there and I seem to remember health care in our old age was a concern.
> 
> ...


Looking on the bright side ( for a change ) those British Expats already retired to Spain or moved to Spain
as 'a life choice' before retirement, could look favourably on the fact that the loss of UK State Pension uplifts
and reciprocal health care could well act as a deterrent to the Mother-in-Law moving to Spain to be
with their sons or daughters.


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## paulhe (Jan 2, 2018)

mrypg9 said:


> Not sure, but I don't think reciprocal health care was ever available to retired people outside of the EU area.
> 
> We bought a place in Canada as we thought about retiring there and I seem to remember health care in our old age was a concern.
> 
> ...


this is quite an interesting issue. Though correct UK pensions are not uprated in Australia , Australia and UK have a reciprocal health agreement. This means when we visit UK we show our Aus passports and receive treatment in GP clinics and at hospitals free of charge (rarely but it happened last year when my wife fell ill) whereas we would have to pay notwithstanding we were all born in UK and have UK passports if we are living outside UK and present as UK citizens.. This restriction on UK citizen non residents paying for access
to NHS has been in place for a while. There is a strong lobby group advocating for UK pension uprating in Aus but no real movement on it after many years (that agreement ended in 2000 or early 2001 if I recall).
Conversely, Aus and Spain have an agreement on pensions but no reciprocal health agreement 
paul


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

paulhe said:


> this is quite an interesting issue. Though correct UK pensions are not uprated in Australia , Australia and UK have a reciprocal health agreement. This means when we visit UK we show our Aus passports and receive treatment in GP clinics and at hospitals free of charge (rarely but it happened last year when my wife fell ill) whereas we would have to pay notwithstanding we were all born in UK and have UK passports if we are living outside UK and present as UK citizens.. This restriction on UK citizen non residents paying for access
> to NHS has been in place for a while. There is a strong lobby group advocating for UK pension uprating in Aus but no real movement on it after many years (that agreement ended in 2000 or early 2001 if I recall).
> Conversely, Aus and Spain have an agreement on pensions but no reciprocal health agreement
> paul


What we are discussing here is healthcare for would-be residents, not visitors. Am I right in thinking that you are referring to emergency treatment for visitors to the UK from Australia who hold Australian passports?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Williams2 said:


> Looking on the bright side ( for a change ) those British Expats already retired to Spain or moved to Spain
> as 'a life choice' before retirement, could look favourably on the fact that the loss of UK State Pension uplifts
> and reciprocal health care could well act as a deterrent to the Mother-in-Law moving to Spain to be
> with their sons or daughters.


Maybe so but the main deterrent preventing my mother-in-law from visiting me is that she died in 2010.

I wonder how strictly these new rules will be enforced.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Point is, this benefit came with membership of the EU.
> 
> So no EU membership for the UK, no reciprocal health care in any EU member state.
> Not just Spain.
> ...


Exactly. I don't think any of us here were expecting it to continue.

But I thought it was worth posting for any Brits hoping to retire to Spain in a few years' time who might not realise that although their mates who are already here get their healthcare paid for, they won't.


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

Alcalaina said:


> Exactly. I don't think any of us here were expecting it to continue.
> 
> But I thought it was worth posting for any Brits hoping to retire to Spain in a few years' time who might not realise that although their mates who are already here get their healthcare paid for, they won't.


Yes we will inevitably get posts from new retiring British Expats to Spain who cannot get here until
after the 31/12/2020 and asking what the pitfall's will be regarding their pension and healthcare
needs, etc.

To think on the run up to Brexit there were innumerable Parliamentary Select Committees where 
MP's ran their slide rules on the costs, pitfalls, expenses and savings by either continuing with the
existing healthcare arrangements for British Expats retired to Spain or retiring to Spain in the future. 
Where the upshot of it all was 'it was deemed cheaper' to continue with the scheme, as it was cheaper 
as regards overall cost to encourage Brit's to retire to Spain; rather than having those same Brits
and even future retiring Brit's rejecting retirement abroad, to an EU country and instead becoming
a further burden ( already strained by an aging population ) to the NHS and the Local Authorities
in terms of their future healthcare needs.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Williams2 said:


> Looking on the bright side ( for a change ) those British Expats already retired to Spain or moved to Spain
> as 'a life choice' before retirement, could look favourably on the fact that the loss of UK State Pension uplifts
> and reciprocal health care could well act as a deterrent to the Mother-in-Law moving to Spain to be
> with their sons or daughters.


Too late, she's already here!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Exactly. I don't think any of us here were expecting it to continue.
> 
> But I thought it was worth posting for any Brits hoping to retire to Spain in a few years' time who might not realise that although their mates who are already here get their healthcare paid for, they won't.



Yes, there are many people who think that all they have to do is hop on a plane, buy or rent a house or apartment and tickety boo....

It's an interesting phenomenum worthy of a doctoral thesis, this predisposition on the part of Brits to move themselves around the world whether to work or retire. We know there were mass migrations mainly to the United States at the end of the nineteen century and into the early twentieth due mainly to pressures of poverty but most British immigrants since then have had other motives.

From an early age I had itchy feet. My first trip abroad was as a sixteen year old to stay with a German penpal. I went by boat and train from Southampton to Stuttgart. All the family and the dog came to see me off. I felt like Columbus climbing aboard the Santa Maria when I boarded that ferry. I deliberately chose the longest route via Paris as I had a day to wander round before catching the night train.
Until then my family had left the shores of Britain only when ordered to go off and kill foreign people, apart from my Auntie Hilda who went on a British Legion organised coach trip to see the grave of her brother who was killed at Arnhem.

All my life I've travelled whenever I could. I did a trip round Spain by car in the early 1960s, 1965 I think it was, I was a student. It was always my plan to live somewhere in Europe when I retired and fortunately my partner was of the same mind although I preferred central Europe and she sunnier climes. She won out in the end after a few years of trying elsewhere and I'm glad she did.
But for me the ability to live somewhere other than my country of birth has always been a privilege, not a right.

One of the things I noticed about Czechs when I lived in Prague was a tendency to think in the past, to be resistant to change, a certain narrow-mindedness (yes you can generalise about national habits and customs). I put it down to the fact that the Czech Republic is landlocked, to not having a coast.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

mrypg9 said:


> Yes, there are many people who think that all they have to do is hop on a plane, buy or rent a house or apartment and tickety boo....


Some people are just deluded. I read a question the other day (not here) from someone who would not be in a position to move to Spain for a few more years, has a pre-existing condition which, in their own words, requires "hugely expensive" drug treatment which is provided by the NHS. They wanted to know where they could obtain private health insurance which would cover not only the pre-existing condition but also the medication involved. Oh, and a few posts further on it transpired that they also have diabetes. I tried to make my reply as diplomatic as possible but really wanted to ask "what planet are you on?".


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> But for me the ability to live somewhere other than my country of birth has always been a privilege, not a right.


That's an interesting concept. I'm not sure how far I agree with it.

Why stop at country level? It's not that long ago that you needed a letter from the mayor confirming you were a good citizen just to move to another town.

What if you were born in a country your mother was visiting temporarily? In the USA that gives you the right to citizenship, but I don't think that applies anywhere in Europe. Should it?

What about the Windrush generation? Should people who arrived as children and have lived and worked in the UK most of their lives regard that as a privilege?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

I'm wondering whether SWMBO who doesn't reach the magic age for a few more years will be entitled to the S1. Of Course, if I'm still alive she can get one because of me and, indeed, can have one now as my dependant, but what happens when I kick the proverbial bucket?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> I'm wondering whether SWMBO who doesn't reach the magic age for a few more years will be entitled to the S1. Of Course, if I'm still alive she can get one because of me and, indeed, can have one now as my dependant, but what happens when I kick the proverbial bucket?


In the WA it says that we will retain the rights we had when we arrived, so yes, at retirement age she could have an S1. Of course that govt could renegue on it, although it's enshrined in law.


Being in the same position as I am though, with Spain as her last place of work, she's entitled to healthcare in Spain regardless. 

Were that not the case & she was reliant on your S1, she would lose that benefit were you to pop your clogs before she became entitled in her own right.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> I'm wondering whether SWMBO who doesn't reach the magic age for a few more years will be entitled to the S1. Of Course, if I'm still alive she can get one because of me and, indeed, can have one now as my dependant, but what happens when I kick the proverbial bucket?


Anyone who is entitled to a UK state pension in the future, and legally resident in Spain by the end of the transition period, will be OK. 

If she is currently covered as your dependant I very much doubt they will take her tarjeta sanitaria away on your demise - that was one of Pedro's early promises, nobody currently receiving state healthcare in Spain will lose it as a result of Brexit.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Anyone who is entitled to a UK state pension in the future, and legally resident in Spain by the end of the transition period, will be OK.
> 
> If she is currently covered as your dependant I very much doubt they will take her tarjeta sanitaria away on your demise - that was one of Pedro's early promises, nobody currently receiving state healthcare in Spain will lose it as a result of Brexit.


In which case we should all work to keep Pedro in office as no Government feels itself bound by its predecessor's promises.

Do you mean that British immigrants who are granted residency here post transition may lose their right to a SRP? Surely not.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> In which case we should all work to keep Pedro in office as no Government feels itself bound by its predecessor's promises.
> 
> Do you mean that British immigrants who are granted residency here post transition may lose their right to a SRP? Surely not.


Not as such, but may not get annual increase, unless UK agrees with EU in the current negotiation, or makes a separate agreement with Spain.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Joppa said:


> Not as such, but may not get annual increase, unless UK agrees with EU in the current negotiation, or makes a separate agreement with Spain.


Well, my annual increase wouldn't have bought a bottle or two of decent wine. If you rely on the increase of the SRP to keep you alive here you really should have done more homework before leaving the UK.

It's a paltry sum all things considered, like the length of time and amount you've paid into it, for starters.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Well, my annual increase wouldn't have bought a bottle or two of decent wine. If you rely on the increase of the SRP to keep you alive here you really should have done more homework before leaving the UK.
> 
> It's a paltry sum all things considered, like the length of time and amount you've paid into it, for starters.


Especially for those of us who had to pay in for 44 years to get less than they get now for just 30/35 years


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> In which case we should all work to keep Pedro in office as no Government feels itself bound by its predecessor's promises.
> 
> Do you mean that British immigrants who are granted residency here post transition may lose their right to a SRP? Surely not.


Not sure what an SRP is but we were talking about S1 health cover not the actual pension.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Well, my annual increase wouldn't have bought a bottle or two of decent wine. If you rely on the increase of the SRP to keep you alive here you really should have done more homework before leaving the UK.
> 
> It's a paltry sum all things considered, like the length of time and amount you've paid into it, for starters.


I get the full state pension and it's gone up by at least £10 a month over the past five years, so you must have expensive tastes in wine. Also it's compounded year on year, so you'd be getting considerably more than you started with after say 20 years. Especially since it's based on UK inflation rates which have been higher than Spain's.

But I imagine the triple lock won't last much longer anyway, so pensioners who live in the UK won't be keeping up with inflation either.


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## paulhe (Jan 2, 2018)

Alcalaina said:


> I get the full state pension and it's gone up by at least £10 a month over the past five years, so you must have expensive tastes in wine. Also it's compounded year on year, so you'd be getting considerably more than you started with after say 20 years. Especially since it's based on UK inflation rates which have been higher than Spain's.
> 
> But I imagine the triple lock won't last much longer anyway, so pensioners who live in the UK won't be keeping up with inflation either.


The uprating of pensions is important, however, regardless of the WA, the arrangement in place for current and up to 31 December residents of Spain cannot be guaranteed into the future. UK residents living in Aus and Canada (Commonwealth countries notwithstanding ) had their pensions frozen . People living there prior to the cut off were not 'grandfathered' and so have to live of less and less each year. Not sure about Canada however if one has lived ten years in Aus then one receives a pension, that is a means tested pension and so fortunately as the UK pension in real terms falls so the Aus pension kicks in and ends up covering the UK pension 'loss'. Can/t see that happening in Spain if no ongoing uprated UK pension.

paul


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

Williams2 said:


> Yes we will inevitably get posts from new retiring British Expats to Spain who cannot get here until
> after the 31/12/2020 and asking what the pitfall's will be regarding their pension and healthcare
> needs, etc.
> 
> ...


Here's the British Parliaments report on Reciprocal healthcare agreements and how they work.
Item 17 is of particular interest in the report.
_Where The Department of Health and Social Care accepts that the system is cost-effective for the UK, not least
because the cost of treatment overseas is often cheaper than in the UK.
For example, Spain’s latest pensioner average cost—despite a recent upward revision—is now €4,173 compared
with £4,396 in the UK._

Parliamentary business - How reciprocal healthcare works


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