# Cost of Living chart: What do you think?



## leegleze

The following link is a list of popular places for relocation in Mexico, along with an estimate of the cost of living there.

Mexico Cost of Living in Mexico

I know that housing has increased about 300% in my little town just outside Puerto Vallarta in the past five years because PV is expanding so rapidly. Is this chart "true" to where YOU live? I'm especially interested in what you have to say about monthly rent figures in the various communities.


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## synthia

I think it made everything look very expensive. I'm single, and there was no indication of what 'family' meant. Four? A couple? Because if four people can live for $2500, I'm assuming I can live for a whole lot less.

Your comment about changes in the cost of living point out one of the big problems with retiring abroad, inflation and changes in exchange rate. While it will become more expensive in your home country too, if you are living abroad, inflation and currency fluctuation will have a much bigger impact.


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## sparks

Those prices are way too high and vague and they are using 11.5 pesos to the dollar. 

How many retirees are bringing a family and sending kids to school. Retireees should be the main focus of that site even tho they talk about general relocation. They don't include Colima or Vallarta but they would be just as outrageously wrong.

It's just filler for their web site .... and not much of a web site at that


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## senoratuky

leegleze said:


> I know that housing has increased about 300% in my little town just outside Puerto Vallarta QUOTE]
> 
> Hello! We spent all of 2007 in a little town o/s of PV - La Cruz. Have been gone for six months now and can't wait to get back. What town are you referring to>


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## leegleze

I'm referring to Bucerias, although, due to the construction of the new marina, it appears La Cruz de Huanacaxtle's real estate prices are soaring too, probably more quickly than Bucerias. Yep, I'm ready to start looking in the jungle near there ... pick up a little traditional house for under $100,000, give it a lick of paint, and sell it for $200,000 next year!


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## bigmutt

Prices shown for Mexico City on that chart are also pretty high, at least for rental or lease of apartments or houses. There are many decent areas where you can rent an apartment for $400 to $500.
The cost of living figures though seem somewhat accurate, given that it's supposedly for a middle-class lifestyle, American style. 
Remember, you can live very cheaply if you stick to the basics as many Mexicans know them, for food, entertainment, clothing, transportation, etc. but if you want to live a lifestyle like you're in the U.S., it's going to cost you much, much more. Because you'll find yourself shopping at Costco, eating out at restaurants that cost 50% more than the same restaurant in the U.S., driving a car that costs a lot more here than the same car in the U.S., paying huge toll-road costs when you venture outside of Mexico City with your car, and so on. You'll find that telephone, internet, cable tv, etc. all cost more here in Mexico than in the U.S. Want to buy a new TV or any consumer electronics? you'll pay double here.

So don't buy the hype from SolutionsAbroad: they're trying to sell the dream of living on the cheap here, in the style you've become accustomed to in the U.S. It's not true. There's no free lunch here, only nice weather and ....... well, more nice weather.


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## philgib

Expats around the world are known for not being able to live like locals and therefore pay much more. 

Expats with expats packages paid in foreign currencies may live extremely comfortably, especially English or Europeans and will pay much more than what shows on this site.

Expats with local jobs and salaries will quickly find out that they either have to live like locals or die. They will therefore have to pay much less than what shows on this site.

The most important cost for us who are on a local salary is the private school : 350 dolars per month per kid, primary or secondary school. some public universities are good and cheap. Not all of them though. 

So 2 young kids mean 700 dollars per month. This is what you commonly pay for a bilingual spanish-english school. 

If you do not have kids, than the only big costs will be the rent and the electricity bill if you like air conditioning as much as Americans do. All other costs will be neglictable. You can simply adjust the rent to your real needs and money.

I did not mention the health care cost as the situation differs for each of us.


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## bigmutt

philgib said:


> Expats around the world are known for not being able to live like locals and therefore pay much more.
> 
> If you do not have kids, than the only big costs will be the rent and the electricity bill if you like air conditioning as much as Americans do. All other costs will be neglictable. You can simply adjust the rent to your real needs and money.


Sorry but I disagree that without kids, rent & electricity are the only big costs.
And as for "not being able to live like locals ..." ??? Well, I'm sure we're *able to* but maybe we just don't *want to* adapt to third-world living customs. 

1. Food is a big cost for us, since we are accustomed to american quality of food, so we shop a lot at Costco. The quality of a lot of the food available in local street markets, local shops and even supermarket chains is definitely not up to the standards we're used to in U.S. and Canada. I'm sorry but unless you live in a small town or rural area, the freshness and quality of fruits, veggies and such is going to be best at Costco and not in the local market. I suspect that the best stuff is exported and the rest goes into the local distribution channels. 
By using coupons & weekly loss-leader type sales (neither of which exist here) I can actually live more cheaply in the U.S. (grocery-wise) than I can here, buying the exact same items.

2. Restaurants and fast-food?? *More* expensive in Mexico! (for like quality)

3. Unless you're willing to put up with public transportation (risking assault, robbery and air-borne viruses & bacteria), your car itself, the insurance, toll-roads, car repairs and registration taxes are going to cost you well above what you'd pay in the U.S. Even gasoline is almost equal to U.S. averages.

4. Electronics, like I said before, cost much, much more in Mexico than the U.S. So if you like to watch T.V. & videos or want to have a nice stereo or an iPod or a current computer and printer, expect to pay through the nose. 
Even internet service and cable/satelite service is more expensive here. Blockbuster rentals?? higher in Mexico. Oh, and remember to equip *all* of your electronics with uninterrupable power supply units or good-quality surge protectors. (I've had to invest $1500 just in those!) Constant brown-outs and surges taught me a few expensive lessons.
Want telephone service? Among the most expensive in the world!

5. Want to furnish your home with nice appliances and decent furniture (nothing real fancy, just what a middle-class family would be buying in the U.S.)?? Better bring it with you if you're about to move here, 'cause it's *way more* expensive here.

6. Clothing?? forget about Target or JCPennys prices here: if you want regular, nice clothes better count on spending Nieman-Marcus prices for them at Liverpool or Palacio.

So if you call these expenses "negligible" then you'll probably be okay. But if you're like us, you'll be spending more (than in the U.S.) on practically everything, other than housing, and like us won't even be able to afford any airconditioning.

U.S. residents on welfare live better than most mexican residents.


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## synthia

I'm sort of curious. If you have to have the same life as you would in the US, and it is costing you more, why not just stay in the US?


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## philgib

What I have frequently met are people "forced" by their company to go for a few years in less rich countries for experimenting local business ways - learning adaptability, patience and negociation skills - and then go back to their native country with a higher job and salary within the same company. Kind of mandatory purgatory. 


> air-borne viruses & bacteria


 Maybe that one says it all.

I do not know if Bigmutt is in this situation, but I would extract from Bigmutt's message the following names : Cosco, USDA food, Ipod, Blockbuster, Target, JCPennys. Sounds to me like a genuine US world. I have never even thought about going to these shops in my last 5 years in Mexico but I still consider myself as middle-class guy. I just go to Soriana, Chedraui, Al super. Mexican stores. Food quality seems fine to me. I am still alive, slim and good looking (just kidding).

The situation would also differs according to the geographic location. 

Like, I have lived in Playa del Carmen (close to Cancun) for 3 years. 

- Not finding USDA meat would not be an issue as I would eat plenty of very cheap same-day-fished grilled fish (yummy !).
- Also, I would say no one really cares about wearing famous brands clothe.
- People order from the US through Internet waterproof cameras, tough laptops, and efficient surge protectors.

In Chihuahua - where I live now-, I have a much better meat quality then in Switzerland where I constantly had to watch the expiry date. Here the meat is 2 or 3 days old by the time it reaches my plate - and 4 times cheaper.

My simple advice would be : make your homework before leaving - thanks to this forum - , buy in your country everything which is cheaper before moving to Mexico (clothe and electronics for Americans) and you will be fine.

If I ever move to the USA, I will take along some real cheese (rejected by the USDA) and sausages, and tanks of gas.


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## RVGRINGO

It is all about choice. We also shop at Soriana, Mega once in a whild and the local mercado publico; the latter offering a wide selection for daily needs. A local butcher offers the very best bacon I've ever tasted and slices it to the desired thickness; ditto for filet mignon which we age in the refrigerator. Some butchers will age a whole filet for you, if you ask, and you can pick it up two weeks later.
Appliances are best bought in Mexico to handle Mexican voltages and spikes. We've never lost one in over seven years. Yes, they may cost a bit more but we don't need surge protectors or voltage regulators.
We do eat out, probably more than we should, but the costs are manageable with a very good international meal at $10-$14 USD and a Mexican meal a bit less, depending on the restaurant. Since we are in a popular expat retirement area, we have lots of choices of international cuisine. Yes, there are Mexican and International restaurants in Guadalajara that we can't afford, as in any major city.
Clothing is the only area where I find BigMutt's posting accurate. It is hard to find a selection of sizes and choices without going to the more expensive stores, like Liverpool, especially for slacks. However, when replacements are needed, someone is always coming to visit & will pick up a couple of things to bring south for us. We seldom go north but could make a 'shopping trip' combined with a weekend in Texas if we were really desperate. We aren't that desperate!


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## bigmutt

synthia said:


> I'm sort of curious. If you have to have the same life as you would in the US, and it is costing you more, why not just stay in the US?


For a moderator, you've got kind-of a nasty attitude toward posters here, don't you. I've noticed that before.

Where did I say I have to have the same life here?

Where did I say it's costing me more (total) than living in the U.S.?

I have nothing even approaching the same life here as I did in San Diego.

And it's costing us substantially less than middle-class life in the U.S., to be sure.

No, all I was doing was presenting some facts and observations that the folks contemplating moving to Mexico had perhaps not considered. After all, this thread was started based on an International Living report about cost of living, and those of us who are familiar with that organization know how they exaggerate and paint overly-rosey pictures in their reports, in order to further their commercial goals.

And although my personal reasons for being in Mexico are none of your business, it has to do with my wife's job here. Do I wish that her assignment was completed and we could move back to a first-world country?? You bet! 

Some of the responses to my observations were not well received, even calling them "inaccurate". Of course that was to be expected, since no one is comfortable with their life-style choice being examined for inconsistencies. But prospective Mexico residents ought to make an informed choice and that's what I was doing: giving them the facts. And they ARE facts and I can back up every assertion with numbers & examples. 

I have seen many "expats" come and go during my 7 years here, and it was mostly because they had unrealistic expectations. Based on _"paradise on the cheap"_ reports like those of International Living. 

Usually those who already have made their choice and live here _don't_ want to acknowledge a whole host of "challenges" that await those who go from growing up in a first-world country and then trying to make a life in a third-world country. 
This forum and most other sources of information for newcomers certainly does not lack for idyllic pictures being painted of the benefits that living here offers; but it's irresponsible to paint that one-sided picture so I'm _daring _to challenge the emperor's new clothes.

Sorry if that irks some of you.


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## bigmutt

To Philgib:

Maybe it's those mexican eyeglasses or the Chihuahua heat, Phil, but you didn't seem to get the drift of most of my posting; so here's a few clarifications:

- I came to live in Mexico quite eagerly & willingly;
- The airborne viruses I mentioned referred to public transportation (crowded, unsafe microbuses & subways) that undoubtedly contribute to spreading flu & colds)
- the names of U.S. businesses & products were common examples of common life in the U.S. and if you _"have never even thought about going to these shops in my last 5 years in Mexico"_ then commend you for your rehabilitation.
- since your measure of food quality is that _"I am still alive"_ then your standards and mine are different, so there's no sense discussing that. Not only do I shop occasionally at Chedraui but I have accompanied employees back into the "bowels" of the preparation area and it's an FDA inspector's nightmare. 
- your fresh fish & meat supply is enviable, but nothing unusual also for U.S. coastal residents;
- "famous brand" clothes is not what I was referring to; rather, well-made regular clothing of the type bought up by hoards of Mexicans coming to San Diego from Baja to do their shopping, not only clothes shopping but *grocery* shopping too, by the way; if it's so cheap & good in their stores, why do so many Mexicans come across the border to shop? tens of thousands of them!
- shop on the internet for electronics? refrigerators? furniture? sure, you can do it, and pay a hefty customs charge here, plus the shipping; sorry, but even most Mexicans realize they're at a huge cost disadvantage when it comes to those items. (another small example: temp-regulating shower fixtures, which are mandatory in U.S. building codes? unavailable here, just like many other things we take for granted. and yeah, we've got Home Depot too but have you looked at their prices?)

I won't even *begin* to get into things like the absolute lack of minimal customer service here, or no-such-thing as satisfaction-guaranteed purchasing, or the horrendous petty-crime rate, or rampant corruption, or out-of-control kidnappings, or the land-and-water pollution, ad nauseum; because this is a thread about cost-of-living differences and _those other_ considerations are a whole different discussion. But in fact *those* are costs, too; indirect but nevertheless someone has to pay the price.

You're right, Phil, geographic location plays a part in how costly it is for some things, but I the common expenses that everyone incurs, regardless of which country they live in is certainly not as "negligible" as your first posting impies. 
If you want to live as lower-middle class Mexicans live, then life here is a bargain. But if people think maintaining anything close to american middle-class lifestyle is cheap here, they've got a big surprise waiting for them.


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## philgib

Bigmutt,

This time I fully agree with the post you just wrote (the one addressed to me). Also please don't take anything personally, we are just exchanging opinions here.  

Regarding classes, haven't you found difficult to find a middle-class like the one you are used to ? I have actually seen 90 % very low class and 10% very high class.

It took me some times to find out that all the shops you have been talking about - Liverpool for instance - is only used by the rich class who would not care about paying twice the price. Thus the price boost. I have a few friends in the very high class and they confirmed the same. They would not bother about going to the US to save a few hundred dollars.

I failed to find any middle class at all down here. But I have never lived in large cities in Mexico, so this is maybe where they all hide...

Also, I am hearing about lot of Americans going to Mexico for cheap healthcare and dentists. Can you confirm ?


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## synthia

bigmutt said:


> Sorry but I disagree that without kids, rent & electricity are the only big costs.
> And as for "not being able to live like locals ..." ??? Well, I'm sure we're *able to* but maybe we just don't want to adapt to third-world living customs.
> 
> 1. Food is a big cost for us, since we are accustomed to american quality of food, so we shop a lot at Costco. The quality of a lot of the food available in local street markets, local shops and even supermarket chains is definitely not up to the standards we're used to in U.S. and Canada. I'm sorry but unless you live in a small town or rural area, the freshness and quality of fruits, veggies and such is going to be best at Costco and not in the local market. I suspect that the best stuff is exported and the rest goes into the local distribution channels.
> By using coupons & weekly loss-leader type sales (neither of which exist here) I can actually live more cheaply in the U.S. (grocery-wise) than I can here, buying the exact same items.
> 
> 2. Restaurants and fast-food?? *More* expensive in Mexico! (for like quality)
> 
> 3. Unless you're willing to put up with public transportation (risking assault, robbery and air-borne viruses & bacteria), your car itself, the insurance, toll-roads, car repairs and registration taxes are going to cost you well above what you'd pay in the U.S. Even gasoline is almost equal to U.S. averages.
> 
> 4. Electronics, like I said before, cost much, much more in Mexico than the U.S. So if you like to watch T.V. & videos or want to have a nice stereo or an iPod or a current computer and printer, expect to pay through the nose.
> Even internet service and cable/satelite service is more expensive here. Blockbuster rentals?? higher in Mexico. Oh, and remember to equip *all* of your electronics with uninterrupable power supply units or good-quality surge protectors. (I've had to invest $1500 just in those!) Constant brown-outs and surges taught me a few expensive lessons.
> Want telephone service? Among the most expensive in the world!
> 
> 5. Want to furnish your home with nice appliances and decent furniture (nothing real fancy, just what a middle-class family would be buying in the U.S.)?? Better bring it with you if you're about to move here, 'cause it's *way more* expensive here.
> 
> 6. Clothing?? forget about Target or JCPennys prices here: if you want regular, nice clothes better count on spending Nieman-Marcus prices for them at Liverpool or Palacio.
> 
> So if you call these expenses "negligible" then you'll probably be okay. But if you're like us, you'll be spending more (than in the U.S.) on practically everything, other than housing, and like us won't even be able to afford any airconditioning.
> U.S. residents on welfare live better than most mexican residents.



Now, what in the world would lead me to conclude you want to live like an American in Mexico and would really rather be back in the US? Could it be the above items I've put in red?


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## synthia

And I wasn't being sarcastic, at least not originally. I really am curious about why you are in Mexico at all.


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## RVGRINGO

I agree. Bigmutt seems congenitally unhappy in Mexico or just has too much time on his hands while his wife works. He has indicated that he is only here because she was assigned & transferred here. Getting out and enjoying the culture, music, food and climate of Mexico might help, especially if he has learned Spanish. Why do I suspect that he hasn't bothered.


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## pedro

after 7 years of research and travelling to mexico since '78 we moved here over 2 years ago. my research told me that it would cost us less than 50% to be here than to stay in alberta ,canada in a mortgage free house and i was correct[qualifications-in the early 80's i was getting $75/hr. as a management consultant to gov't and the private sector].
property tax:$63/yr,water:$150/yr,propane:$25/mth,electricity:$50/2mths,telephone& highspeed internet:$110[so what].
nice dinner for 2 in a restaurant including 6 margaritas last night:$22including tip[i can't remember what my wife had but i had breaded shark stuffed with cheese,shrimp and pineapple]. i also smoked as many cigarets as i wanted to and the waiter lit them for me. we were surrounded by middle class mexican families.
root canal this week:$150. my dentist is the best i've ever had in my long life.
mexico is not a third world country and you could not pay me enough to live in san diego[qualifications-my daughter and sil lived there for several years].
we do almost all our shopping at the mercado ,tiangis and soriana.
i just bought 12 bottles of wine,2 bottles of tequila,2 bottles of rum,24 cerveza for my wifes birthday party manana:$104.
anyone that says there is no middle class in this emerging nation[not 3rd world ] doesn't get out much.
i have never gone back to canada since i moved here but my wife has gone there twice and california once but she say's if anyone wants to see her now,they can come here.
in this fine country of mexico you are responsible for yourself which means you can't sue for your own stupidity[eg.-falling in a hole in the sidewalk-ya shoulda looked]
that was really not off topic.
if yer unhappy here-get the haitch out on the next plane,por favor.
actually if some people reading this believe this negative crap-then we'll have less of you lot coming here-muchos gracias.


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## RVGRINGO

Pedro makes several good points and his figures are typical for an expat couple living here.
Now, If we can just get him to use those shift keys.


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## verdeva

The wife and I (both under 60) live a comfortable life on Lake Chapala. We eat out more than we probably should, though rarely enjoy the continental cuisine of Ajijc; more often it is a cafe, cantina, or the China Inn in Jocotepec. Yes, we pay more per kilowatt hour for electricity, but we use a fraction of what we used in the U.S. We also pay something like $150 a year for water and trash (daily pickup/7 days a week). Every 4 to 6 months to we venture into a Costco or Sam's and that is usually for something that we're homesick for. Sometimes it's just to walk around a "big ol' store."

If one wants to adapt to their surroundings one can live a very comfortable life here. Want to live like an upscale Guadalajaran (Tapatio) and you're going to spend a lot more and still never quite relive your American/Canadian/Euro lifestyle. 

Including such mundane things as auto registration, taxes, medical care, housing, etc., we spend the exorbitant sum of $1,800 per month. Yes, that's two adults. In the U.S. it was month-to-month, here we stick the excess in the bank. You can spend more and you can spend less. It all depends on lifestyle.


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## philgib

You guys are making me curious about Chapala. One of my guest at the hostel was an American living in Chapala and he really liked it. I thought it was maybe an exception but you guys seem as happy as he is.

Are expats mostly canadians and americans, and most of them retirees ?


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## verdeva

philgib said:


> You guys are making me curious about Chapala. One of my guest at the hostel was an American living in Chapala and he really liked it. I thought it was maybe an exception but you guys seem as happy as he is.
> 
> Are expats mostly canadians and americans, and most of them retirees ?


The answer is yes, yes, and yes.

There are a lot of people who are happy here... there are also people here (and there and everywhere) who have congenital unhappiness. So sad.

Yes, most extrajeros/foreigners are from the U.S. and Canada, but with a sprinkling of Brit's and the odd (though not strange) German, Italian, couple Frenchy's, etc. , Just enough to keep things interesting. 

Yes, the vast majority are retired. I'd have to just guess about the percentage of retires, but it'd have to be in the high 99%. There are few who own some kind of business, artists of various venues and success, and a few people we know who make a living over the Internet. The wife and I are on the young side of retirement, 57/58 now, but ended work at 49/50. We have friends who are retired here in there late 40's after selling out a successful business. Still can't figure out how they knew it was time to quit when they were ahead <jealously rears it's ugly head -  >

I also venture to say that a lot of the folks who are working do so because they really don't know how to stop doing so. I'd probably be one of them if a disease hadn't made the decision for me. 

Happiness is what you make of what you have, where you are. It's just a little easier to do it here in the_* Perennial Spring*_.

Verde-Va


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## philgib

We may need to open a new thread about hings that make people happy and unhappy in Mexico 

Since we are talking here about cost of living, I would comment that retirees who have seen it all would not spend their money the way younger generations may have to and therefore will find an easier cost of living in Mexico that someone more professionally active (no offense ).

Retirees would spend more money on coffee shops and young couples would spend it all in private schools, daily transportation to work, business clothe, office toys, etc...


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## RVGRINGO

The cost of living, anywhere in the world, has just been given a huge jolt with the financial crisis. IRA and 401k funds are falling, interest income is drying up and everyone, everywhere is tightening their collective belt. At the moment, the peso is almost 12 to the US dollar, but that won't last long; it can't. Inflation at a higher rate is already evident.


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## verdeva

philgib said:


> We may need to open a new thread about hings that make people happy and unhappy in Mexico
> 
> Since we are talking here about cost of living, I would comment that retirees who have seen it all would not spend their money the way younger generations may have to and therefore will find an easier cost of living in Mexico that someone more professionally active (no offense ).
> 
> Retirees would spend more money on coffee shops and young couples would spend it all in private schools, daily transportation to work, business clothe, office toys, etc...


And people on vacation spend money on sight seeing.... The lifestyle one lives in Mexico is a mix of who they are, where they've been, where they want to go and how much money they have to do it with.

As RV said "currently we're getting 12P to the US dollar", but it isn't going to last. Two months ago we were getting 10P, but I didn't take all the Pesos I have in the change dish and run down to buy dollars. Running down to the Casa de Cambio to trade my US dollars in on Pesos isn't on the top of my list today. Everything finds equilibrium over time.

The biggest impact I think we've seen down here are big ticket/long term purchases like housing; they have been down for over a year and won't likely improve for some time. If you like negotiating from strength, come down here with fresh U.S. dollars and start making offers on homes from panicking people. 

The Mexican perspective is this: When the U.S. catches a cold, Mexico sneezes.
The question is: Is Mexico a southern State of the U.S. or the U.S. a northern Provence of Mexico?

Verde-Va


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## synthia

I just looked at the exchange rate: 13.774 pesos to the dollar. Will that partially offset losses in 401Ks and IRAs for those living on US dollars, or will it only serve to compensate for inflation, if that?


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## RVGRINGO

If your 401k or IRA has just fallen to almost half its value per share, there is no good way to catch up. If you are taking distributions in retirement, you are eating your nest egg twice as fast. If you were to sell it, you would be liable for taxes as regular income and probably also push yourself into a higher bracket. I'm considering cutting my distribution back to the absolute minimum that is required and hope the whole thing doesn't evaporate before the market rises again. Of course, I often wonder what would happen if the fund company simply failed. Arghhhh!!!!


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## synthia

When you cut your distribution back, won't the increase in the value of the dollar offset part of that? After all, from around 10 to well over 13 is a 30 per cent change.


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## RVGRINGO

Only if the exchange rate lasts; I don't think it will last very long & will soon return to the 9-11 range.


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## synthia

I just looked, and it has gone back down to abut 13 pesos to the dollar, in spite of the wild market gyrations.


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## sparks

The thing people seldom mention about 401k accounts is they can be managed online or at least with a phone call. 401k's will have an assortment of funds to choose from including Money Market. I switched my funds to MM over a year ago and although I missed some positive at the end of last year - I'm in much better shape now.

It's a little late to be 'managing' your funds now but I feel sorry for anyone who's 'invested across the market' ... where so many managers would put you.


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## drblanke

I'd expect it to stay 13ish for a while. 10 was just way too low, and only lasted for the summer. That was back when everybody thought the panic was going to only be felt in the USA and that the rest of the world was "decoupled". Now that it's a worldwide issue, and the Europeans can't seem to settle on anything, the dollar is the safe place to be. So Mexicans are buying dollars just like everybody else. The bigger question is whether prices in pesos will rise. Mexico is insulated from Oil increases by Pemex and makes a lot of its own stuff. But you have to import some things...




synthia said:


> I just looked, and it has gone back down to abut 13 pesos to the dollar, in spite of the wild market gyrations.


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## RVGRINGO

The peso is now at 12.23 per US dollar. In the matter of income from the USA for retirees, I just made the decision to stop my IRA distributions, since I have already taken more than the minimum required amount this year. I'll let the shares stay invested and wait until the end of next year to decide if I need to take more than the absolute minimum required by the IRS. There is no sense in eating up twice as many shares for the same dollar income each month. I'll gamble on the fund recovering in the future.


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## synthia

If you have left your employer, you should roll your 401K into an IRA. That gives you a lot more flexibility in investing. 

The peso is at 12.04 now. There was a big rally on the stock market, but that's probably just relief that some countries are at least doing something.


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## Biotza

*About Vallarta....*

Hi, I don't know if you still planning on moving to PV, or if you allready have.
I lived there for 5 years, now I'm at the Dominican Rep.moving to Bahamas.
PV is great!!!!!!! The American School is a bit expensive, my kid went there, but she really loved it, and still in touch with her friends there.
Where are you going to be working???? La Marina is nice, and you can find very nice places to live, then you havemany other options. There are a lot of new developments all around PV, Nuevo Vallarta, Bucerias, etc.....
I can answer as many questions as you like.
Hope I can help.
Bio.




sparks said:


> Those prices are way too high and vague and they are using 11.5 pesos to the dollar.
> 
> How many retirees are bringing a family and sending kids to school. Retireees should be the main focus of that site even tho they talk about general relocation. They don't include Colima or Vallarta but they would be just as outrageously wrong.
> 
> It's just filler for their web site .... and not much of a web site at that


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## verdeva

I, along with RV, figured it'd settle back to 11-1 in a hurry. It hasn't happned and I'm concerned.

I'm not an economist by any means. Heck, the only "D" I got in college was from a mean spirited Economics Prof who didn't like me sleeping in his class (hey, it was 1969, you had to be there.) Anywho, the high Peso to U.S. dollar exchange kind of scares me. I'm not sure what it portends, but as crappy as the U.S. dollar is at this point I just can't understand why the Peso can be so devalued.

Can anyone who passed ECON 1A explain this. BTW, I'm not refusing any of those extra Pesos and "cambie mis dolares" to Pesos as quickly as we receive them. 

VerdeVa


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## RVGRINGO

In spite of getting more pesos for our US dollar, prices rising quickly to make up the difference. Folks are also starting to be sure to top up their gasoline and propane before the end of the month's price increases. We used to say that there was no way to get ahead. Now, there is no way to keep from falling further behind. Interest income has stalled, investments have crashed and the dollar that we get from Social Security just doesn't buy much any more. How long can a human live on limes?


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## sparks

RV ... I assume you have a lime tree in your back yard


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## RVGRINGO

We do; three different kinds and two of them bear fruit all the time. I wish I could say the same for the bananas (four kinds), guavas, blueberries, blackberries, mangos and avocados. When they bear, we have to give most away; they come so fast.


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## philgib

Look at Mexico's major income sources :

Remesas : down due to new home crisis in the USA
Oil : Below 60 dollars a baril.
Tourism : mostly from US, will be down if US citizens decide not to go on holiday in 2009
Industrial production : Will anyone purchase a new car this year ?

Then : 
Inflation : very high, is exploding the basic home basket (don't know how you call it in English)
Electricity costs : duplicating for political reasons and will kill lots of small businesses
Commodity cost : more and more expensive to build a new house 
Narco-Violence : up everywhere in the country 

So : When US dollar is up against major currencies, it is also up against the MXN
When US dollar is down, MXN sticks to the USD

The only way is up... I can see 15 pesos to a dollar very soon.

Conclusion : my hostel prices are now in US dollar. Sad.


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## PieGrande

I also do not see why anyone would want to live voluntarily in Mexico, if they wish to live exactly as in the States. This is no criticism of Bigmutt, who has made it clear he is there because of his wife's job and will not be there a minute longer than he has to be. He knows himself well, and that is good.

I have always warned potential expats that living in Mexico will only work for the most adaptable people. One who wishes to live the same as in the States will not last long.

I also tell them that to find out how you must live in Mexico, find locals who have the same income you have, and then expect to live as they do. Expect to have the same foods; to wear the same sort of clothes; expect to have the same recreation; to eat at the same sorts or restaurants; etc.

Of course, there is some flexibility always. But, the general level the locals live on the same income should be a guide. If they live in a small two bedroom house, and no car, and you want a large house and a big car, better think it over.

if they eat a caldo most days, and you want smoked salmon, better think it over.

In my case, we live in a Third World village. I think that is an accurate statement. Yes, I have DSL and four bathrooms, but we have neighbors who live in houses made of sticks, with palm roofs. Men ride burros by our front door. A young adult neighbor takes her goats out every afternoon to graze on the mountain side. I suspect most of you would not like living here, but it suits my beyond description.

We go once a week or two, either a 2.5 hour round trip to Tecamachalco, or a 4.5 hour round trip to Tehuacan, which has some really nice malls and a Sam's Club, to buy groceries.

We also go Tuesdays to the large local tianguis to eat mojarra. We buy the basic ingredients for cooking. We do not buy much prepared food at all.

Yet, in spite of that, we live very well, in my opinion. We just don't feel the need to have the luxuries taken for granted in the US by most people. Our enjoyment comes from the company of family and friends.

Do we live more cheaply? Yes, in spite of all the expensive things we do, a significant percentage of our outlay has to do with the mobile home in Texas, and costs of going back and forth.

So, there is no real point in talking about cost of living, because no one else would want to live like we do.

By the way, there are indeed a lot of middle class people in the cities. I define that as people who draw a check, but can afford a car, and better things. In our village, it is true, most are very poor or very rich. Even the doctors and nurses at the government hospital have to live very frugally.


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## synthia

RV - One of the things Obama is considering is suspending the withdrawal requirements for next year, so that retired people don't have to realize losses unless they really need the money.

If you think the dollar has risen against the peso, which isn't that strong a currency, take a look at what has happened to the pound, which hit USD 2.06, I think, at one point. It's now sitting at about $1.50. The yen is way up against the dollar (from around 116 to 96), probably because of the high Japanese saving rate.


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## philgib

I guess as long as the stock market will go down, the USD will get firmer against lots of currencies, and of course the peso.

I wish Mexico could peg the peso to the USD.


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## synthia

I really don't understand why a down day in the US stock markets cause a the dollar to rise. It's nearly 14 pesos to the dollar now, and the pound is below 1.50.

As far as why people would move to Mexico and want to live like Americans, it's because it is cheaper to live well in Mexico than in America. They are not coming there because of an interest in Mexican culture, people, or food. They are coming there because they can have a nice live in a good climate on an income that would leave them with a much lower standard of living than in the US. I know, because that is why I'm considering it.


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## philgib

*Explanation*

Synthia,

When things are going bad in this world, people move to "safe heaven" investment not to make so much money but not to lose it neither.

So lots of foreign investors sell their foreign assets on foreign currencies, change it into USD, then buy long term US T bonds for instance, which have been until now considered as risk-free, and gold. I don't think the US T-bonds are risk free anymore, but this has been quite a classic attitude.

BTW, I appreciate your sincerity on your above comments about your reason of coming to Mexico. I know you just expressed the view of many Americans - and Europeans - I met in Mexico.

An issue is that if inflation and cost of living rises too much in Mexico, lots of this is not going to happen anymore.

For instance, Mexican government decided to stop subventioning the car gas, i.e. car gas should go on par with the US within a couple of years.

I guess Thailand is the next country where to move to for people who wants a cheaper and more simple life 

It is a fact that lots of my expat friends are now moving out of Mexico.


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## murka

*Thailand*



philgib said:


> Synthia,
> 
> 
> I guess Thailand is the next country where to move to for people who wants a cheaper and more simple life
> 
> It is a fact that lots of my expat friends are now moving out of Mexico.



We know of several couples that have left Thailand for Mexico and are extremely happy with their move. In fact, my husband and I are bailing out next year after 6years in Phuket.

Why? 1.Immigration rules 2.unstable government 3.rampant xenophobia 4.unbearably humid weather 5.lack of social activities and connections 6.contrary to popular belief, it isn't so cheap now.

Explanation: 1.The financial requirements for a retired couple is 800,000 Baht, the equivalent of $US23,000, which has to be in a Thai bank account for three months before applying for and renewing your visa. Last year, overnight, with no warning the requirement became 1,600,000 for a couple! There was such an uproar from the foreign community, that after 3 weeks, this was dropped BUT several immigration offices continued this requirement for months afterwards. The officers are rude, loud-mouthed and aggressive. Also, as a foreigner, we must report to immigration every 90 days or else risk a hefty fine. We go by the rules, yet made to feel like criminals.
2. I don't need to mention that there is basically no government now....the opposition had closed several airports for a number of days, contributing to the dwindling number of tourist arrivals. Vote buying is common. The separatist south provinces are witnessing beheadings and bombings on a daily basis.
3. rampant xenophobia.....the previous ruling party was called "Thai Rak Thai" which translates into Thai loves Thai. This says it all. Foreigners cannot own land. You get a lousy rate of interest at the bank. Dual pricing is common.
4. The humidity is killing my husband. If you go north, it is cooler but unless you are married to a Thai, forget it. Even Chiang Mai, which is a great city, is suffering from pollution caused by the crop burning so popular with the farmers.
5. Lack of social activities for some is a problem.....there are a bridge clubs, mahjong clubs, golfing, diving, boating but as far as intellectual stimulation, it is La-La land. Many of the couples are farang (******) husband and Thai wife. The Thai wife usually cannot speak English and even if she does, as sweet and kind as she may be, you really have not much to talk about. Many of the men, usually older Europeans, hang out in bars for their occupation. It can be a cultural desert.
6. Gas has doubled in the last 6 years. We checked prices of common grocery items while in Mexico earlier this year.....most were more expensive in Phuket. Housing is much more expensive in Phuket unless you are happy living in a dump.
7. I forgot......the traffic is atrocious! And heaven help you if a Thai runs into you. It will be your fault no matter what and you will pay through the nose, even after your insurance pays up. There are a gazillion motorscooters going every which way, criss-crossing the road, going the wrong way, 5 people on a motorscooter without helmets. And there is no parking anywhere (except in the malls) because the tuk-tuk and taxi mafia have marked every available parking spot as their own and they will protect this spot to the death (your own, I kid you not).
OK, I realize that this is a pretty negative view of Thailand but please realize that if you are a ****** couple, I can guarantee that you will have the same views within 2 years. This is especially true if you live here full-time. For those who have the resources that allow 2 or more residences in different countries, then this is a different story. Six months of the year, the weather is wonderful and then you can get away for 6 months for some culture. Also, if you have a Thai partner, then life will be easier. If you think that you can pick up the Thai language, forget it. The alphabet has 44 consonants and 20-odd vowels. There are 4 tones. The word "kao" has 8 meanings depending on how you pronounce the vowel.
For those of you who think that Thailand is the answer, think again. 
Oh and unlike the peso, the Thai baht has become stronger than the US$ by almost 20%, and more for other currencies. The pound has lost 25% in the last few months. So we have lost about 20% purchasing power.

And my apologies to any Thai readers or expats living happily in Thailand....these are just my opinions and my experiences. I have worked and lived in 7 countries on 3 continents.....so am very adaptable but I have had enough of Thailand.


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## RVGRINGO

It appears that we will be welcoming you to Mexico soon. True, it isn't perfect but the headlines that scream about the drug trafficking along the border cast an unfair light on the rest of Mexico, where thousands of us live happily and peacefully. Travel within Mexico is a delight, one is always welcomed with a smile and help, if needed, is always given generously.


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## philgib

Thank you very much Murka, what you wrote was extremely interesting, at least to me.

I will take each of your points about Thailand so that you can compare.

1.The financial requirements for a retired couple. Sorry, I don't know it exactly so I will shut up on that one. All I know is that I have seem the migration being very accomodating when a retired ****** couple would come to their desk.

2. Well yes, there is still a government in Mexico. And still working ok. It always could be better, but this is not that bad. Still some solid corruption though.

3. "rampant xenophobia"
Not present in Mexico unless you want to live in Mexico like in the US and criticize every single stuff. Still you may pay more than locals for a few things like taxis but this is not xenophobia

4. "The humidity." Mexico is a huge country and spreads from North to South so there are different climates.. It won't rain 9 months a year in my area (Chihuahua) and some 50 years old cars still look like new. Now in Chiapas it will be almost the same humidity as you described. Then the coast is not bad at all, just lots of rust on every single piece of metal you may own (car, fan, kitchen, computer, etc...)

5-" Lack of social activities for some is a problem...." . I would say that in Mexico it really depends on your efforts as you can have pretty interesting people here but you have to look for them. Remember the more countries you know, the more global you become and the more boring everyone may sound in any country  If I would go back now to France I would have to live in Paris or in a city with lots of expats as any discussion with local people would be boring to death after 5 minutes. 

6- "Gas has doubled in the last 6 years" Again something quite common everywhere but you did surprise me about the cost of living in Mexico being cheaper than in Thailand.

7. "I forgot......the traffic is atrocious!" Not that bad indeed in Mexico. You just have to understand how people think and you are done. Like, just consider every car in front of you as if they did not have any mirror or turning indicators. Keep a solid distance between the car in front of you and yours and you are fine. I never had an accident in 6 years in Mexico and I drive a lot. I just pay 100% attention every single second. You get used to it.


- Disclaimer : this is only MY opinion and other may have different experience. Hope it helps

- PS : I wrote a book about living, purchasing land and building in Mexico. It is supposed to be in English but I still need some English native people to correct it. 

Philippe


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## murka

RVGRINGO said:


> It appears that we will be welcoming you to Mexico soon. True, it isn't perfect but the headlines that scream about the drug trafficking along the border cast an unfair light on the rest of Mexico, where thousands of us live happily and peacefully. Travel within Mexico is a delight, one is always welcomed with a smile and help, if needed, is always given generously.


We have been to Mexico twice, 2 months each time. You are absolutely correct about travel in Mexico. It was a breath of fresh air after driving in Thailand where you think that you are inside a video game.

My brother has had a home in Cabo San Lucas for over 10 years where he spends about 7 months of the year, peacefully and happily. After visiting us in Phuket twice, he started making noises about us making a move.....he saw the light before we did. Our last trip to Mexico sealed the deal.


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## murka

philgib said:


> Thank you very much Murka, what you wrote was extremely interesting, at least to me.
> 
> Philippe


Thanks for the comparison.

I may have been unfair regarding the cost of living since we live in Phuket, which is the Cabo San Lucas of Thailand. You can live cheaply here if you live like a Thai but you will have difficulties. It is very economical to live up in the northeast but you will be hankering for some intellectual stimulation and you will have to watch your back in case your Thai wife is plotting your death. Most farangs, if not renting, will have the house and property in the wife's name since foreigners cannot own land. The wife's family (which you will end up marrying as well), will look upon you as a walking ATM and IMF all in one. There have sadly been many cases of an early and mysterious demise of the husband.
Dual pricing in restaurants, transportation, national parks is very common.
Housing can be cheaper, but you will end up in a Thai-style house which will be spartan. Food will be cheaper if you eat Thai food. My husband cannot eat Thai food so we cook at home. Farang food restaurants are over-priced and of poor quality. Groceries are more expensive here for imported food stuffs than the same items in Mexico.

So to make a long story short, it is cheap here if you live like a Thai (as it would be for a local in Mexico). We would rather spend a bit more money in order to have a decent quality of life.


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## synthia

I'm finding Mexico much more expensive to travel in than Thailand. And right now with the dollar becoming stronger there is some compensation for inflation. When I was in Thailand a couple of years ago, the baht rose from 37 to the USD to 29 in the space of just about a month, thus increasing my costs across the board by 20 per cent.

From what has been posted here, it much easier to get residence here, at least for retirees who are getting pensions, because you can qualify strictly on the basis of income. The rule (I looked it up, or someone looked it up for me) is 250 times the minimum wage in Mexicoo City. So it fluctuates, and with the dollar up, it should be lower than the USD 1300 it was a few months ago.

You can never tell about a place until you spend a lot of time there. So, if you make the move from Thailand, it will be a while before you can make an accurate assessment.


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## RVGRINGO

It is also difficult to generalize about prices in Mexico. The coasts, with their 'destination resorts,' are more expensive and I have even noted that there are often 'traps' for tourists. For example, taxis may charge you more and some restaurants have higher prices listed for each item on their English language menu. We find it wise to insist on seeing both menus and sometimes there is real resistance in those beach towns when they know they have been discovered at that game. We are aware that rents, home prices and restaurant meals are also higher at Chapala, a weekend destination for 'Tapatios' from Guadalajara as well as home to thousands of expats, especially Ajijic with its many 'international restaurants'. Nearby towns can be a lot less expensive but will have fewer conveniences that are desirable to expats.


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## madimex

Fortunately our largest expense is coming to an end. The last of the wifes kids finishes Uni next week. 

Living up here in the mountains and away from the tourist areas I have found the cost of living has increased but not that much. 

When I moved from the UK I bought a house on the outskirts of Monterrey. As we were then both living in my wifes house my idea was to rent it out, but after looking at the state of some of the houses that had been left after renting I decided to abandon that idea. 

We did eventually sell the wifes house and bought one next to mine and co joined them. We run a small cyber that runs on a commercial meter and with the two houses the cost is still relatively cheap compared to the UK. 

The rates are unbelievably cheap and full marks to the local mayors who have kept the area in pretty good shape. 

I am in constant touch with my ex navy friends in the UK and sounds like everyone wants to emigrate what with the cost of living ! 

One consolation for for any woes, whatever they may be, is that for round 8 months of the year I wake up every morning with the sun shining through the window


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## synthia

In some ways, increased prices for tourists and expats makes sense. If we expect services that would not normally be available in a town of similar size and location, that is going to cost more. Probably a restaurant owner has to pay servers more in order to get people that speak English, deal with wide swings in demand as tourist season comes and goes and snowbirds head up north, but the rent stays the same, and other things that really do drive up costs. Of course, some of it is 'get the foreigner' but some things that we want really do cost the provider more.

It takes a while for changes in the exchange rate to filter into the economy. They always seem to raise prices, though, no matter which way they go.


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## EEK!

*Coast prices*

RVGRINGO: Overall, you are right about the cost of living on the Pacific Coast of Mexico (esp. Puerto Vallarta and Acapulco). However, you are half right about Mazatlan. Here, the Golden Zone, the El Cid area, the Marina area, and high rise hotels (the tourist and rich areas) are more expensive. Living in Mazatlan (Centro, Sur , Sabalo, Gaviotas, Cerritos, etc. -- these are very nice areas) is about 10 % cheaper than living in the Chapala area. I say this being fully aware that prices are increasing as we speak. I can't tell you about tomorrow for here they have grossly overbuilt, and I can not predict the future economy. I also can't tell you about the Eastern coast. Yes, it is hard to generalize on prices in Mexico. Mazatlan is a nice place to live right now. What tomorrow brings -- tomorrow brings. EEK!



RVGRINGO said:


> It is also difficult to generalize about prices in Mexico. The coasts, with their 'destination resorts,' are more expensive and I have even noted that there are often 'traps' for tourists. For example, taxis may charge you more and some restaurants have higher prices listed for each item on their English language menu. We find it wise to insist on seeing both menus and sometimes there is real resistance in those beach towns when they know they have been discovered at that game. We are aware that rents, home prices and restaurant meals are also higher at Chapala, a weekend destination for 'Tapatios' from Guadalajara as well as home to thousands of expats, especially Ajijic with its many 'international restaurants'. Nearby towns can be a lot less expensive but will have fewer conveniences that are desirable to expats.


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## RVGRINGO

When we visit Mazatlan, we must admit to staying in the resort areas. In fact, we'll be there again in a couple of weeks with friends who have a time share and have invited us to spend some time with them. We're looking forward to it.
When you mentioned the cost of living being slightly less than at Chapala, did you include the hefty electric bills for using A/C? I can't imagine living there without it.


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## EEK!

RVGRINGO: Your point is not made with me. Your electrical bill depends upon how much electricity you use. Only a very large house with everything AC would be out or sight. I live in a condo 3 BR (1,200-1,300 sq. ft.) with three mini-spit AC's. My non-summer bill averages $350 pesos/mo. and the four hottest months were July $510 pesos, Aug. $670, Sept. $510 and Oct. $530/mo. Now divide that by 10 to 13.5 pesos to the dollar and see what it is in US money. I just got back from the vet: Two dogs examined, nails clipped, anal gland cleaned, heart medicine, flea medicine -- total $300 pesos. Considering the exchange rate that is $22 US total. 
At lunch as one of my favorite places: lunch for two, 1/2 kilo lamb, soup, all the fixings four cokes -- Total $22.50 pesos ($16.70 US). I know ... I know ... I splurged. Now, here is the challenge. I live across the street from the Mayan Sea Garden -- and down from Pablo Bonito (Two of Maz largest time shares). If this is where you are staying, drop me an e-mail and I can easily show you breakfast's at $3 bucks, lunch at $4.50 up., Dinner at $8 up -- and we will be at as good as or better places than what the tourist row offers. But, if you want to feel at home, I'm buy you a cervesa at Burha's -- down the road, average food and average prices, equal to Chapala/Ajijic. Now, try and pass up a free cervesa. EEK!


sd, to $61My highe--


RVGRINGO said:


> When we visit Mazatlan, we must admit to staying in the resort areas. In fact, we'll be there again in a couple of weeks with friends who have a time share and have invited us to spend some time with them. We're looking forward to it.
> When you mentioned the cost of living being slightly less than at Chapala, did you include the hefty electric bills for using A/C? I can't imagine living there without it.


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## RVGRINGO

That's not too bad, but the electricity is pretty high. We have a large house and are billed every two months; usually about 200 pesos, so that is a lot less.
Anyway, we'll be at the El Cid Marina Hotel and will enjoy meeting you. I'll shout when we're settled in.
Last time in Mazatlan, we were at Pueblo Bonito with other generous friends who were our hosts. It is a really nice place.


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## EEK!

RVGRINGO: That is very good for your area. Most of the people I know there average double to triple plus that. What is even better is that you probably have no AC or heating -- and with your climate, probably need neither. Here in Maz, 8 months are very good ... but 4 are brutal. 95-100'F and 90-100% relative hum. So, when I keep my elec. below $60/mo. with mini-spits (AC)-- that's super. 
Get in touch with me when you arrive. El Cid Marina is a nice hotel and very good location. I have enjoyed your posts throughout the years. EEK!

QUOTE=RVGRINGO;77939]That's not too bad, but the electricity is pretty high. We have a large house and are billed every two months; usually about 200 pesos, so that is a lot less.
Anyway, we'll be at the El Cid Marina Hotel and will enjoy meeting you. I'll shout when we're settled in.
Last time in Mazatlan, we were at Pueblo Bonito with other generous friends who were our hosts. It is a really nice place.[/QUOTE]


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## RVGRINGO

We don't have a pool, so that helps keep the cost of electricity down. You are right, we don't have AC and only use a portable propane heater or the fire place for a very short time each winter. We're just starting to do that now.
We do enjoy Mazatlan and Manzanillo in the winter when we get a chance to go.
Hasta pronto.


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## Rodrigo84

I kind of remember my cousin's bills at his apartment, a 3 bedroom/4 bath, no AC in Interlomas just outside of D.F. and I'll add those for reference. It's technically, Huixquilucan, Estado de Mexico. I live in a house with my parents and brothers/sisters, and it's about the same as below, but we live in Cuajimalpa, Distrito Federal.

Electricity: 140 to 290 pesos every 2 months
Gas: 530 pesos every month
Water: 200 pesos every 2 months

I think on food, he'd spend about 4000 pesos per month for himself.


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## purephil

Hi there:

I think the main problem (of this sample) is expats generally expect a high quality of living than most in Mexico (expect to get). Because of this, one must ask how they statistically drew their sample set for these figures (and publishing the variance of this sample set etc would have been useful). Anyways, for my two pennies worth - the D.F. figures are high comparing to area-wide averages (see the website metroscubicos as under regions one can see mean, mode and median figures for rentals per unit area) however low for what most expats would pay. I for example live in a modern and fully equipped high-rise and pay about $2500 USD for a two bed in down-town/Reforma area of Mexico City next to Anzures which isn't as nice, but according to those figures - waaay cheaper.

Cheers


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## synthia

One of the main problems with retiring in Thailand is that the rules change all the time. When I was last there a couple of years ago, the amount of assets you needed to show had changed. Also, you used to be allowed to use that money each year to live on, and now it must remain in a Thai bank for a certain period of time. Anyway, rules would be issued, and then changed, and then the instructions for the immigration people wouldn't actually comply with the law.

Another major advantage is that Spanish is much easier to learn than Thai, since it uses the same alphabet and has a lot of words in common. This makes it easier to do just about everything, including shop in a supermarket.


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## trefall123

*Who let the dog out!?*

[Similarity of pricing]...That's one of the first things I noticed when I moved to Michoacan. I don't rent so I'm not sure about the accuracy of the chart. I agree, partly, with BM. The comparable cost of living is actually more expensive here than in the US. 
I live like a 'native' but always have so no big change. Father-in-law is a butcher who raises his own animals. Local fruits and veggies are better than export quality butprices can be similar to US. Although I have a friend who raises tomatoes for export. I get Romas for 2 pesos/kg. 
Also, you have to look at the local economy. If your area is made up of many people who have lived in US/Can than costs will be higher on average. Real estate prices here have tripled in the last year. Primarily because of the people who have moved back after living a few years in the states. A local person, working at a local factory [best paying in the area] couldn't begin to pay for a $100,000 loan let alone interest. But, the sellers know that the people moving back have some money saved and want to buy a house or property. So, the asking prices go up automatically. I've called around about some local properties and they aren't even interested in adjusting prices. Just M2C.


bigmutt said:


> Sorry but I disagree that without kids, rent & electricity are the only big costs.
> And as for "not being able to live like locals ..." ??? Well, I'm sure we're *able to* but maybe we just don't *want to* adapt to third-world living customs.
> 
> 1. Food is a big cost for us, since we are accustomed to american quality of food, so we shop a lot at Costco. The quality of a lot of the food available in local street markets, local shops and even supermarket chains is definitely not up to the standards we're used to in U.S. and Canada. I'm sorry but unless you live in a small town or rural area, the freshness and quality of fruits, veggies and such is going to be best at Costco and not in the local market. I suspect that the best stuff is exported and the rest goes into the local distribution channels.
> By using coupons & weekly loss-leader type sales (neither of which exist here) I can actually live more cheaply in the U.S. (grocery-wise) than I can here, buying the exact same items.
> 
> 2. Restaurants and fast-food?? *More* expensive in Mexico! (for like quality)
> 
> 3. Unless you're willing to put up with public transportation (risking assault, robbery and air-borne viruses & bacteria), your car itself, the insurance, toll-roads, car repairs and registration taxes are going to cost you well above what you'd pay in the U.S. Even gasoline is almost equal to U.S. averages.
> 
> 4. Electronics, like I said before, cost much, much more in Mexico than the U.S. So if you like to watch T.V. & videos or want to have a nice stereo or an iPod or a current computer and printer, expect to pay through the nose.
> Even internet service and cable/satelite service is more expensive here. Blockbuster rentals?? higher in Mexico. Oh, and remember to equip *all* of your electronics with uninterrupable power supply units or good-quality surge protectors. (I've had to invest $1500 just in those!) Constant brown-outs and surges taught me a few expensive lessons.
> Want telephone service? Among the most expensive in the world!
> 
> 5. Want to furnish your home with nice appliances and decent furniture (nothing real fancy, just what a middle-class family would be buying in the U.S.)?? Better bring it with you if you're about to move here, 'cause it's *way more* expensive here.
> 
> 6. Clothing?? forget about Target or JCPennys prices here: if you want regular, nice clothes better count on spending Nieman-Marcus prices for them at Liverpool or Palacio.
> 
> So if you call these expenses "negligible" then you'll probably be okay. But if you're like us, you'll be spending more (than in the U.S.) on practically everything, other than housing, and like us won't even be able to afford any airconditioning.
> 
> U.S. residents on welfare live better than most mexican residents.


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## AcapulcoGringo

*My 2 cents*

I have lived here in the Acapulco Area for about 2 years now.

I agree in part that to live like you would in the states without adapting will cost you more here, and the reason is some gringos refuse to adapt and expect things to be like they are in the US and do not understand that the US is one country and culture out of many! Gringos come here and eagerly pay big money, no questions asked and that sets precidents and makes it hard for the rest of us that try to live on a budget (****** Prices)

I Currently live in a one bedroom Apartment with pool, overlooking the bay, electric paid, water paid... and my rent is $2,500 pesos a month (163.88 USD)((todays rate)... and although my place isnt a palace, its certanly in a nice area, and nicer than most working class mexicans that I have seen.

I just paid the deposit today to move to my new home, in pied a la cuesta (although Acapulco, its outside of the city heading towards Ixtapa).. The home is HUGE! In the main house it has 3 bedrooms, 2 baths, kitchen, salon, den, dining room, and behind the house is a huge Brick and cememt arbor (looks like used to be used for party's etc) with extra bedroom bathroom, kitchen and bar.. The place is right on the Lagoon , literally, with magnificent views of the surrounding mountains... there is probably 10 acres of land, and no niegbors expect fo r the man and his wife hired to watch the rest of the land (about 50 acres)... anyway, I will pay 2,000 pesos a month (131.10)... granted I and the owners will do some work, its still a GREAT place!

I shop around.. I have a smas card, and buy some things there, BUT only things in bulk that are cheaper than the regular stores.. I am a member of all the "points, or frequent customer programs" check prices for anything over 200 pesos and shop at th market sometimes... I agree that there are infieror meats here, but you have to watch and just use common sense! I not only dont get sick, I eat very well!

I do not buy clothes here, because they are too exspensive! I go back to the states for a few days every 3 or 4 months and In San Digo I go to the outlets and get all I need! I even may bring a few things back to sell to my mexican friends, and make a few extra bucks!

I have a scooter so spend very little on gas, although I am looking for a VW bug because anyone can fix them and they are cheap!

Correct , some electronics are more expensive here, bug not always true.. For instance I just bought a 21 inch phillips tv for my bedroom flat slim lined tube tv, for 2,000 pesos and I think that is comparable to the us or better and A dvd to go with it, also phillips, for 299 pesos, less than 20 bucks.... also, smaller electronic compentns etc are cheaper here! 

things that you really do not need like ipods, and smart phones ( I have one but bought on ebay in the states) are much more exspensive here... BUT my friend just bought a mini laptop for 300 bucks 

I eat in resturants for lunch and spend less than 3 bucks for a big meal, and even splurge and eat german or chinise for about 7 bucks for dinner.

sorry to go on and on, just wanted to make it clear that it is Very possible to live a Great life here on very little money! I spend less than 1,000 USD a month, and live a good life.. Try living in a big home, and live a good life in the US on less than 1000 bucks.. (oh I have a part time maid also!)

yes I sacrifice things I am accustomed to in the us, BUT other things make up for it and I adapt! Yes I get frustrated at many things, but all in all I love it here!


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## RVGRINGO

Welcome to the forum and thanks for your informative post.


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## synthia

I notice when I travel that the longer I am in a country, the less it costs me, just because I know my way around a little. I notice the same thing here. People post that they live, or used to live, in one place, and after a few years they moved, and now their expenses are a lot less. They've adjusted to the economy and the way of life.

I guess that's another reason to rent and not buy when you first arrive.


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## raininspain2

*Cost of living chart: what do you think?*

OMG. AcapulcoGringo, are those prices you quoted for real? Rentals for less than US$200 PER MONTH at 2009 prices? That gives me the courage to move right now and I don't have to work! Are you quoting in pesos or US dollars? Please confirm as this is truly unbelievable. Living in the Washington DC area has truly become unaffordable unless one is satisfied of living in a less desirable area and never ever experiencing the quality of life that most people aspire to. But if your figures are correct, that quality is achievable most certainly in Mexico (not in DF but outside like say Queretaro?).





AcapulcoGringo said:


> I have lived here in the Acapulco Area for about 2 years now.
> 
> I agree in part that to live like you would in the states without adapting will cost you more here, and the reason is some gringos refuse to adapt and expect things to be like they are in the US and do not understand that the US is one country and culture out of many! Gringos come here and eagerly pay big money, no questions asked and that sets precidents and makes it hard for the rest of us that try to live on a budget (****** Prices)
> 
> I Currently live in a one bedroom Apartment with pool, overlooking the bay, electric paid, water paid... and my rent is $2,500 pesos a month (163.88 USD)((todays rate)... and although my place isnt a palace, its certanly in a nice area, and nicer than most working class mexicans that I have seen.
> 
> I just paid the deposit today to move to my new home, in pied a la cuesta (although Acapulco, its outside of the city heading towards Ixtapa).. The home is HUGE! In the main house it has 3 bedrooms, 2 baths, kitchen, salon, den, dining room, and behind the house is a huge Brick and cememt arbor (looks like used to be used for party's etc) with extra bedroom bathroom, kitchen and bar.. The place is right on the Lagoon , literally, with magnificent views of the surrounding mountains... there is probably 10 acres of land, and no niegbors expect fo r the man and his wife hired to watch the rest of the land (about 50 acres)... anyway, I will pay 2,000 pesos a month (131.10)... granted I and the owners will do some work, its still a GREAT place!
> 
> I shop around.. I have a smas card, and buy some things there, BUT only things in bulk that are cheaper than the regular stores.. I am a member of all the "points, or frequent customer programs" check prices for anything over 200 pesos and shop at th market sometimes... I agree that there are infieror meats here, but you have to watch and just use common sense! I not only dont get sick, I eat very well!
> 
> I do not buy clothes here, because they are too exspensive! I go back to the states for a few days every 3 or 4 months and In San Digo I go to the outlets and get all I need! I even may bring a few things back to sell to my mexican friends, and make a few extra bucks!
> 
> I have a scooter so spend very little on gas, although I am looking for a VW bug because anyone can fix them and they are cheap!
> 
> Correct , some electronics are more expensive here, bug not always true.. For instance I just bought a 21 inch phillips tv for my bedroom flat slim lined tube tv, for 2,000 pesos and I think that is comparable to the us or better and A dvd to go with it, also phillips, for 299 pesos, less than 20 bucks.... also, smaller electronic compentns etc are cheaper here!
> 
> things that you really do not need like ipods, and smart phones ( I have one but bought on ebay in the states) are much more exspensive here... BUT my friend just bought a mini laptop for 300 bucks
> 
> I eat in resturants for lunch and spend less than 3 bucks for a big meal, and even splurge and eat german or chinise for about 7 bucks for dinner.
> 
> sorry to go on and on, just wanted to make it clear that it is Very possible to live a Great life here on very little money! I spend less than 1,000 USD a month, and live a good life.. Try living in a big home, and live a good life in the US on less than 1000 bucks.. (oh I have a part time maid also!)
> 
> yes I sacrifice things I am accustomed to in the us, BUT other things make up for it and I adapt! Yes I get frustrated at many things, but all in all I love it here!


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## AcapulcoGringo

Everything I said I 100% True! I explained in the post pesos and Dollars.. The fact is, I live on Less than $1,000 USD a month and do GREAT.... You can't live like a ******, BUT you can live better than the working class local!

My situation has changed and I need to be closer to the border for medical reasons ( a few surgeries) so I am moving to Tijuana for a few months.. My apartment there is going to cost me more (it's more exspensive on the border) I will pay $350 USD a month furnished, all utilites paid, etc, brand new, nice one bedroom apartment... But I will have to adjust my spending on certain EXTRAS in order to stay in budget.. BUT I have lived in Tijuana before, and can do it!

If you have $1,000 USD a month in Income, COME, its possible... BUT remeber, at forst you may need double that to set up, buy some things, maybe aplliances, etc.. Better yet 3x ($3,000), and then you will be much more comfortable!!!


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## raininspain2

AcapulcoGringo said:


> Everything I said I 100% True! I explained in the post pesos and Dollars.. The fact is, I live on Less than $1,000 USD a month and do GREAT.... You can't live like a ******, BUT you can live better than the working class local!
> 
> My situation has changed and I need to be closer to the border for medical reasons ( a few surgeries) so I am moving to Tijuana for a few months.. My apartment there is going to cost me more (it's more exspensive on the border) I will pay $350 USD a month furnished, all utilites paid, etc, brand new, nice one bedroom apartment... But I will have to adjust my spending on certain EXTRAS in order to stay in budget.. BUT I have lived in Tijuana before, and can do it!
> 
> If you have $1,000 USD a month in Income, COME, its possible... BUT remeber, at forst you may need double that to set up, buy some things, maybe aplliances, etc.. Better yet 3x ($3,000), and then you will be much more comfortable!!!


Thank you for your prompt reply, AcapulcoGringo. That is certainly encouraging. Isn't Tijuana sort of dangerous to live in at this time?


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## AcapulcoGringo

Yes it is dangerous.. IF you deal in , or use drugs... or deal in illicit things.. In which I do not... In gerneral... people that are law abiding, do not get in ANY trouble in Tijuana... I think 95% + of the peple killed or harmed in Tijuana, in some way was involved in illicit activity... Thats what makes me so Angry about the press and peoples blinded thoughts about Mexico, and the border ZONE.. YES there is alot of killing.. BUT they are killing each other.. AND alot of the Cops that are killed are involved too.. Not saying all.. BUT some are for sure...

If you use caution, and dont be flashy, you will be 100% safe in Tijuana, as well as the rest of Mexico....

And if you come down here and be flashy, or have the money to be flashy... its best you go to Miami, or Ft. Lauderdale, where you can do it safely.. (although I hear there is carjackings, and robbers there pretty bad)

PLUS , people think Tijuana is like a small village or something... ITS a HUGE city, and one could easily live there, and do everything they need to do, without going to bad areas, or running into the bad element...

Granted there are exceptions..., BUT I would venture to guess a Law abiding citizen is safer in Mexico than in many US cities!!


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## bigmutt

*Tell me it ain't so, Joe !!*



AcapulcoGringo said:


> Yes it is dangerous.. IF you deal in , or use drugs... or deal in illicit things..
> 
> If you use caution, and dont be flashy, you will be 100% safe in Tijuana, as well as the rest of Mexico....
> 
> I would venture to guess a Law abiding citizen is safer in Mexico than in many US cities!!


I'm glad to see that AcapulcoGringo can give us his 100% safety guarantee: in TJ no less ! 

But tell that to my family members who lost a member IN TIJUANA to the kidnappers last year. And the thousands of others who had similar losses. Our cousin's case was never reported to the authorities, as most others also are not reported; therefore he and thousands like him are NOT part of the already grim statistics that AcapulcoGringo seems to think are exaggerated. (not reported to the mexican authorities because often THEY are involved to some degree or other.) 

I know personally of many, many innocent victims of this cartel war & crackdown: from all walks of life and NONE of them were remotely involved in anything concerning drugs or police or being flashy or any of those things that AcapulcoGringo seems to think are precursors to safety issues in Mexico. Young kids are being kidnapped here, in ALL neighborhoods, sometimes for $500 ransom.
In fact when I read his patently naive analysis of mexican safety problems I can't believe the rose-colored glasses some people need to use to go through life. The statistics totally, totally contradict that opinion (and let's not forget that it IS an opinion, not fact).
Sure, it's his right to go through life with that opinion (and express it here; for sure) but anyone who's dealt with this crime-wave on the front lines (as I have) will explain to you WITH FACTS that it's very different in real life. 

There's a lot of attempts at reducing cognitive dissonance going on in the minds of many expats here; they've made a big commitment and OF COURSE they're right & justified in their decision. And they happily "venture to guess" on topics they know nothing about.

An article the other day in the paper here in Mexico City reported on the tourist who was killed on a city bus in broad daylight as he & his girlfriend were being robbed. Nice middle-class area, one of the "safest" in the city. And just as an aside, the article mentioned a statistic: 1,200 people have been robbed on city buses just in the first two months of this year; and that's the ones who REPORTED the robberies !! The majority of crimes are never reported, for various understandable reasons. 1,200 robberies, and that's just on city buses!! doesn't count home invasions, robberies on the street, assaults in private vehicles or taxis, etc. You do the math.

"Tell me it ain't so, Joe!" well, I could but I'd be guilty & convicted of contributing to a false sense of security.


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## Rodrigo84

So many things can happen on the bus in Mexico City. That is why they have a woman's only bus line, but even this silliness can occur, Hombre vestido de mujer abusaba de pasajeras del Metro - El Universal - DF (it's in spanish, but you can find translators on the net, wild story)

I rarely if ever have ridden the bus and my American cousin never did, nor did many expats I knew here. You had to be an idiot to ride the bus. I had female friends and relatives who have been groped, fondled, touched by men in addition to the insane robberies that take place.

I have never seen and rarely heard of drug violence affecting us here in Mexico City, even though I know it exists, but there's also sorts of other evil that affects us, it just doesn't matter what color it is.


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## AcapulcoGringo

OK... so whoever this VERY negative person, that says I have all these rights of opinion, yet so negatively bashes me for them..hhmm

There are always exceptions to the rules. If this person feels so much in Danger in Mexico, then why is her here.. Or is he? I would venture to guess, that this person lives in a ****** Home, and drives a ****** car, and THINKS he is not flashy, as many gringos do (well I'm only wearing my diamond wedding band, not my engagement ring) or (these people don't know what a Rolex is) etc etc...(just because its not considered flashy in the US, does not mean its not here in Mexico. Youa re around millions of people that make 5 to 10 UD dollars a day, and wearing a watch that cost 2 months of thier salary is flashy) I would venture to guess that this person has not lived a truly Mexican life here as I have for 2 years. I ride a scooter EVERYWHERE... I eat in the Mercado almost daily.. I go out at night, on my scooter, I live in a true Mexican Neighborhood, and go into many others daily! And I have no problems! BUT there is a chance, OF COURSE, I'm not naive, nor stupid.. I know there is a danger, and I am aware of it, BUT to live in a bubble is not for me.

I have been robbed at GUNPOINT two times, oh BUT it was in the US both times.. One time, in Turtle Creek in Dallas, which is a VERY exclusive part (my Grandpas condo sold for over a million when he died) and the other was in Fort Lauderdale Florida, along the beach road (can't remember its name as I was visiting from my home in Key West)

I see on TV, allot in the US School shootings, civic center shootings.. Police shootings, robberies, etc and these people were doing nothing wrong, some were innocent children. As a matter of fact the 10 year anniversary of the Colorado school shooting just happened.. MY point is, people think they are immune in the US, even though they know violence in VERY prevalent. BUT feel they are not in Mexico. WHY?

Yes Mexico can be dangerous, and as I said certain precautions should be taken to TRY and avoid trouble, BUT as with ANYWHERE in the world, things happen to innocent people. BUT if this person, OR anyone tells me that the majority to the Cartel violence is NOT targeted to "affiliated" parties, and then they are crazy and stupid. This is what I was talking about.. The Cartel violence. NOT the petty every day crime that has ALWAYS happened.. I am speaking of the current MEDIA sensation of the Drug cartel violence, NOTHING else.

I have no stake in the fact that gringos are scared or not scared. Basically I like it better WITHOUT a lot of gringos around because the seem to ****** things up for those of us that choose to fit into the culture. It’s so funny.. Us gringos come here, and try to LIVE exactly the same as we did in the US, but if Mexicans or other cultures move to the US and try to live the same (paint houses a certain color, etc etc ) Oh my my my, we go crazy and tell them, "they are in America now, live like an American" BUT that’s ok, because We are better than everyone else... right?? NO, we are not, and Gringos should play by the same rules as we expect of others when they live in our country.

It’s so frustrating to meet these horribly negative gringos that complain about everything Mexican, yet live here. Well GO HOME... and leave us, that love this country to live in peace... NO ****** has ANY right to come to Mexico and want to change it.. It’s not yours or mine to Change.. BUT stubborn Gringos are so snobbish they feel they have rights to change anything to make it the way THEY think it should be, and that is not only wrong, its HORRIBLE..

Sorry to go off topic, but I had to respond!


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## RVGRINGO

This thread has wandered off topic; although we could stretch a point and consider that the 'cost of living' might not always be in money. It may be in cultural differences that aren't always understood, the proximity of dangerous situations, or even the perception of such, when the reality may actually be different. Both posters have made good points and I trust that they can respect each other's opinions without becoming argumentative or critical on a personal basis.
The entire world is going through some rapid changes and, like them or not, we're all along for the ride; together. Somos uno, amigos.


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## kismet

Regarding cost of living, does the Sam's club have inexpensive clothes like Walmart in the States? Maybe I should pay for extra checked bags.


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## RVGRINGO

Yes, Sam's Club, Walmart, Soriana and other 'big box' stores have inexpensive clothing, similar to elsewhere. Of course, there are also outlet malls and upscale clothing shops in the newer shopping malls.


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## Rodrigo84

Having seen a Sam's in the U.S., I think you get more offering of clothes back there than down here. WalMart has about the same amount. However, I notice anything with children's and ESPECIALLY baby clothes are way more expensive than the U.S. We used to have our families in the U.S. bring in children's clothes/shoes as a result. It kind of depends on adult clothes if you get a good deal or not, but brand name stuff is going to be WAY higher.

I concur on the outlet stores. I have gotten shoes at such places (brand name stuff, like Reebok, Nike, etc.) for very good prices even by U.S. standards.


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## El Toro Furioso

leegleze said:


> The following link is a list of popular places for relocation in Mexico, along with an estimate of the cost of living there.
> 
> Mexico Cost of Living in Mexico
> 
> I know that housing has increased about 300% in my little town just outside Puerto Vallarta in the past five years because PV is expanding so rapidly. Is this chart "true" to where YOU live? I'm especially interested in what you have to say about monthly rent figures in the various communities.


The numbers in the chart seem to be based on rich naive gringos going to the biggest crook realtor in their town and asking for the most overpriced rental properties. We just bought a beach house on the Costa Alegre, but we still keep our Ajijic-area rental to live in during the summer months. It is two bedrooms, two baths, automatic garage door, mature fruit trees in front yard and back yard, lawn for the dog in the back yard. $4,000 pesos per month which has been well under $300 the last time I looked at exchange rates ((I think they have gone up to about 12.7/$ US recently). 

We moved to Mexico almost four years ago, and we gave ourselves (a couple) a budget after rent and utilities of $37 USD per day. We have ended two months out of 40-something slightly over budget and every other month has come in under. We are still coming in under budget, but it is requiring that we become a little smarter than before.

If you can't live in Mexico (other than D.F. and Baja) for under $2,500/month USD then you either are renting a mansion or you are getting ripped off due to not speaking the language or to other causes for which you should blame yourselves. 

So far this month, we are $119 under budget, so inflation hasn't really meant much to us as we move over to more local products and eschew imports. (I just had a huge urge for dill pickles a few weeks ago, but a small jar in Melaque was $65 pesos. Then, by accident, I went into a grocery store iin Cihuatlan and they have dill pickles for $20 pesos el kilo! I'm in Mexican-made dill-pickle heaven.)

We think that we can now live in Mexico for $2,300 USD/month, or less. We are spending right now like drunk sailors since we just purchased this charming place, but we'll get back to on-budget anon.

Don't listen to the naysayers unless you have the money to live anywhere you want. Hope this helps. El Toro Furioso


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## Rodrigo84

El Toro Furioso said:


> The numbers in the chart seem to be based on rich naive gringos going to the biggest crook realtor in their town and asking for the most overpriced rental properties. We just bought a beach house on the Costa Alegre, but we still keep our Ajijic-area rental to live in during the summer months. It is two bedrooms, two baths, automatic garage door, mature fruit trees in front yard and back yard, lawn for the dog in the back yard. $4,000 pesos per month which has been well under $300 the last time I looked at exchange rates ((I think they have gone up to about 12.7/$ US recently).
> 
> We moved to Mexico almost four years ago, and we gave ourselves (a couple) a budget after rent and utilities of $37 USD per day. We have ended two months out of 40-something slightly over budget and every other month has come in under. We are still coming in under budget, but it is requiring that we become a little smarter than before.
> 
> If you can't live in Mexico (other than D.F. and Baja) for under $2,500/month USD then you either are renting a mansion or you are getting ripped off due to not speaking the language or to other causes for which you should blame yourselves.
> 
> So far this month, we are $119 under budget, so inflation hasn't really meant much to us as we move over to more local products and eschew imports. (I just had a huge urge for dill pickles a few weeks ago, but a small jar in Melaque was $65 pesos. Then, by accident, I went into a grocery store iin Cihuatlan and they have dill pickles for $20 pesos el kilo! I'm in Mexican-made dill-pickle heaven.)
> 
> We think that we can now live in Mexico for $2,300 USD/month, or less. We are spending right now like drunk sailors since we just purchased this charming place, but we'll get back to on-budget anon.
> 
> Don't listen to the naysayers unless you have the money to live anywhere you want. Hope this helps. El Toro Furioso


Thank you for mentioning it not applying to D.F., because my cousin and his friends would have found it very hard to live for under 2500 USD per month here.


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## bigmutt

*you get what you pay for ......*



Rodrigo84 said:


> So many things can happen on the bus in Mexico City. That is why they have a woman's only bus line, but even this silliness can occur, Hombre vestido de mujer abusaba de pasajeras del Metro - El Universal - DF
> 
> You had to be an idiot to ride the bus. I had female friends and relatives who have been groped, fondled, touched by men in addition to the insane robberies that take place.


Pretty funny, Rodrigo! (except not for the women who were groped, I'm sure.)
Yes, many times I think that you have to be crazy to ride the bus; the subway is also fertile hunting grounds for bandits & thieves & all manner of degenerates.
I have to admit, however, that I do ride the bus & metro fairly frequently, just because the traffic is such a nightmare most of the time. 
We have two vehicles (and God help us, I hope not "****** cars" like AcapulcoGringo "accused" me of driving!) (yeah! what is a ****** car? an american brand like Chevy or Ford? or one made in the U.S.?? or any car being driven by a ******??) but often use alternate transportation.

We live in a part of the city that has virtually NO other gringos except me, a "pueblito" so far from the city that it almost feels like not part of D.F. so we have to get creative with our trips "into town". (so no, it really can't be described as a "****** Home", whatever the h*ll that is, AcapulcoGringo.) oops! we do have running water and usually have electricity; is *that* a ****** Home?

But yes, it can get mighty dangerous on the public transportation, as my roommate has already been robbed at gunpoint twice on a bus here. 
Many people we know (all of them mexican nationals) have been robbed, either by home invasion or in their cars. My roommate has had two uncles killed and one wounded via gunfire, not in Mexico City but in "quiet, safe" provincias of mexico. 
An elderly, poverty-line aunt was recently assaulted in her home and robbed of everything valuable that she owned; and this was in a small, charming little town in the state of Puebla. 
Three of our neighbors on our street have been robbed at gunpoint of their cars just during the past year !! not in our neighborhood but elsewhere in the city. every time was during the day, too. The tiny little TelCel franchise nearby finally had to close down, after being robbed for a third time in two years. 

I follow the crime statistics that each Delegacion publishes (well, the reported crimes at least) and while it's true that some are far more dangerous than others, rising criminal activity in all of Mexico is a factual problem that many naive residents (esp. expats) choose to pretend doesn't exist. As "proof" they point to their own lives with indignant statements like "I've lived here X amount of years and never had a problem." well, a thoughtful person knows that this is just silly. (just like a certain "******" making ad hominem attacks on a member here who's facts you refuse to acknowledge.)

Anyway, Rodrigo, back to the subject of Cost of Living: your postings are completely correct and need to be presented to any person contemplating on living here permanently. Too many of the posts in this thread remind me of when I travelled around europe with a book called "Europe on Five Dollars a Day". Most newcomers are not going to find nice lodging for $200 a month, even though they're looking in more out-of-the-way places. 
The market finds it's own level, that's simply a real estate fact. If the street or colonia or city is desireable enough to live in, it will be so for others who follow. 
Surprise!! "You get what you pay for." applies even in Mexico.

Sure, there's people who've found really good deals through the years here but no one should mislead newcomers into thinking these deals are on every corner: that's just irresponsible.

I still stand by my statement that a U.S. family on welfare lives better than a middle-class working family in Mexico. (well, not that they all do, but they all can if they spend sensibly.) 

As I do a few times a year, I just spent the month of March living in San Diego, CA and every time I did grocery shopping I was amazed at how good the food prices were when you shop the weekly sale ads and use coupons. Gas is cheaper; car prices and renewals are *a lot* cheaper; good-quality clothing is unbelievably cheap compared to Mexico, if you shop carefully. (I mean, try buying a pair of Levis for ten bucks in Mexico)

Anyone who tries to paint a picture of some kind of "free lunch" available to expats is just deceiving potential newcomers. Yeah, the weather's nice; *some* of the food is cheap, but mostly just the basic gov. subsidized staples; some food is quite fresh, although often not any fresher than you find in U.S. stores; (and btw, the U.S. also has farmers' markets everywhere!) if you want organic or pesticide-free foods, the U.S. is still MUCH better in that regard; ocean-view and other land is still cheaper here, but offsetting that is the gamble of buying in third-world, crime-wracked country.

Did I mention that you get what you pay for?


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## socks

bigmutt said:


> Anyone who tries to paint a picture of some kind of "free lunch" available to expats is just deceiving potential newcomers. Yeah, the weather's nice; *some* of the food is cheap, but mostly just the basic gov. subsidized staples; some food is quite fresh, although often not any fresher than you find in U.S. stores; (and btw, the U.S. also has farmers' markets everywhere!) if you want organic or pesticide-free foods, the U.S. is still MUCH better in that regard; ocean-view and other land is still cheaper here, but offsetting that is the gamble of buying in third-world, crime-wracked country.


I can't understand how the food is more expensive in Mexico... I live in Canada, so prices are different, but I just dug through some grocery receipts here from the last few months for comparison. 

White potatoes - $3.28/kg
Green Beans - $6.59/kg
Avocados - $3.28/kg
Roma tomatoes - $3.28/kg
Papaya - $2.84/kg
Broccoli - $1.49 each
Limes - 4 for $1
Red peppers - $6.59/kg
Lettuce - $1.49 each
Grapes - $3.99 a lb
Apples - $0.99 a lb
Wonder bread - $2.39 each
Plaintain $0.79 a lb

I remember when my wife's father was here, we went shopping, and at cashout I had to ask him if he REALLY wanted that $9 papaya... He was like huhhhhh? Nooooo.


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## Rodrigo84

Food can be more expensive in many cases, it just depends what you get. If you get fruits/vegetables/etc. from certain places it can be less. However, my cousin found in certain cases it can be more expensive (fish, meats). Moreover, if it is say something like cookies, doritos, etc. (basically American style junkfood), it will be more. I think my cousin and I went into a WalMart once and found a bag of Doritos was like the equivalent of $4 to $5 U.S. dollars. That's not cheap.


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## socks

Rodrigo84 said:


> Food can be more expensive in many cases, it just depends what you get. If you get fruits/vegetables/etc. from certain places it can be less. However, my cousin found in certain cases it can be more expensive (fish, meats). Moreover, if it is say something like cookies, doritos, etc. (basically American style junkfood), it will be more. I think my cousin and I went into a WalMart once and found a bag of Doritos was like the equivalent of $4 to $5 U.S. dollars. That's not cheap.


Hrmmmm... Could be that I have a lot of family there and therefore they know where to go, but I haven't seen anything that's more expensive when it comes to food that I can think of. 

At the best meat market in DF for both quality and selection (which always means high prices) called Mercado San Juan, which is right near Meabbe where they sell all the games, car audio stuff, electronics, etc.. Anyways I saw them cutting up some beautiful veal shanks for osso bucco, and even tying the tendons up in a fancy design around the bone.. I took a bunch of pictures and he demonstrated one for me, and each one was I think 35 pesos he said.. The same thing here would be 12 bucks, easy. 

I do know that Mexico doesn't have the same quality of AAA beef I'm accustomed to, yet the milanesas along the highway to Acapulco are truly delicious. I think you just don't get the same kind of butchering, and/or perhaps the cows just don't develop the same marbling etc you'd need for the higher end cuts from the rib. Anyways small sacrifice. 

The produce in grocery stores there I find to be pretty scary ugly, no idea why.. 

The produce however at the local tiangis and the larger markets is beautiful and fresh. Have you ever been to Central de Abastos? Can't tell me the prices aren't good there, oh my..  Plus it's like 3km square, you only need to visit a tiny portion of it and you're set. It's truly massive. 

Doritos we get from a lady's store 2 houses down and they're cheaper than in Canada. Not sure about walmart prices, though I do end up there a lot, just don't think I bought chips. A small bag from the lady is either 5 or 6 pesos. A small bag here at the gas station for example is most likely $1.19 + tax = $1.37. $0.99 if you're lucky! Lots of things that used to be a dollar here are just a bit more than that now. Almost all of it was a ripoff at a dollar too.

Btw a normal "big" sized bag (not jumbo or anything just normal) is almost always $2.99 at the grocery stores here. Plus tax that's $3.41. Not too far from your $4!


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## Rodrigo84

Yes, I know Cto. d Abastos well.

There are often on Sundays, neighborhood markets that sell fresh produce and those are excellent.

I think with a lot of stuff sold in grocery stores (the big places like Comercial Mexicana, WalMart, Gigante, etc.) the prices can be higher with some U.S. branded products than you would find in the U.S., at least that was the observation of my cousin, but he managed to watch his budget and get by on Mexican-branded products.


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## RVGRINGO

It should be noted that, seasonally, produce may go from Mexico to the USA and Canada; while it sometimes may come to Mexico from California. I get a kick out of the ladies who go to the local Mercado Publico, buy their Mexican grown produce, take it home and bathe it in Microdyne. They don't seem to notice that it came out of the same export crates destined for the USA; yet, when they lived in the USA, they never used the Microdyne. I guess they thought that 'something magic' happens to those vegetables at the border; or, they didn't think at all.
With that, I'll make a general statement: The food, all of it, seems better in Mexico and it is certainly less expensive for Mexican produce. Imported stuff is the exception and if you insist on a can of Campbells soup printed in English, from the USA, be prepared to pay a hefty premium. If you can read the Campbells soup can printed in Spanish, you will save a great deal. One should also learn to buy most red meat and then let it sit in the refrigerator for several days before using. It is much too fresh and needs to be aged. Some of our butchers will sell us a loin and then hang it in the cooler for a couple of weeks to age; then we pick it up......tender and delicious!


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## quinta

Boy, I started reading this post to see if the Cost of Living was realistic (but it wasn't) and then I read all those posts from that very angry man hating living in Mexico.... he made me laugh so much being "the typical ugly American".... yet is was quite ugly too. Makes one think he got kidnapped by the wife and brought down here against his will, he sure must be a pleasure to live wit, lol
In any case, people such as this example SHOULD NOT go anywhere out of the US for they can't live anywhere else. One thing travel does for open minded people is make you more aware of what makes us alike than different and where your happiness comes from (it comes from inside, angry man....) but for those of us that are OPEN to a challenge, and yes, Mexico is a challenge- and I'm both American (born in San Diego and Mexican, with dual citizenship) and have lived all over the world..... Mexico is what you make it. 
I am a Chef and am used to living well and I find food quality in Mexico is superior than the US food supply due to it being whole, natural and unspoiled. The US has a BIG problem with it's food supply since it began manipulating it and now it's unhealthy. You want US type meat? You mean loaded with hormones and chemicals? Really? You think it's better? You want convenience food? The type that fills you up but doesn't nourish you? Too bad....
Vegetables with chemicals (so insects don't eat them and it won't spoil), drinks so full of chemicals and poisons that people literally die as a result? I don't know about you, but not us! We eat better and cheaper here.... no more food allergies (even the salt has aluminum), and we spend less too. Our family of four spends:
$4500 pesos for a 3br/3ba condo in one of the best areas of PUEBLA
$750 pesos for DSL Internet + Digital Cable TV + Unlimited phone use
$500 pesos for electricity - every 2 months
$90 pesos for water every two months
$300 pesos for gas every 3 months (and I cook/bake/broil all the time!!!!)
My biggest expense is food and I spend $6000 pesos a month on groceries including Meat, Poultry, Fish, Seafood, all natural cleaning supplies and paper products and anything else I can think of which is $1500 pesos a week and that's less than what I spent in the US.
We go out and can spend between $150 pesos for breakfast to $900 pesos for a fancy meal and this is way lower than anywhere in the US... even in Las Vegas (where we lived and had a highly rated restaurant there too)
We own a Mexican car, no tenencia and pay $4000 a year for complete insurance (I used to pay that a month in the US. I spend about $400 a month in gasoline too.
So all in all we live on less than $1000 US Dollars a month and there's no way we could do that in the US which is why I work for pleasure and not because I need to and we can live on my husband's pension and still save every month! 
Oh and by the way, we live as we always have- same living standards and quality but better.
PS.- Just bought a Frigidaire washer/dryer combo at Sam's and I paid $200 US less than I would have if I had bought it in the US. Also got a Sony Bravia Plasma TV at Sanborn's for $300 US less than the cost in the US... and my son had a computer specially made in Monterrey for HALF the cost of the same thing in the US (and with US components too!)...
And as far as clothing.... I have a seamstress here that will make me anything I want (from any magazine like Vogue or Cosmo or anything) for $150 pesos- custom made! Of course I give her the material and even that is more than reasonable. Furniture? Got a Suede Sofa set (sofa, love seat, chair + 3 stone tables for $8000 pesos! That's less than $600 US.... and I have a carpenter or an iron work craftsman than can do anything I ask too.... custom. Had screens for all the windows (6 large ones), the baths (3) and enclosed the terrace all for under $2000 pesos, that's less than $150 US for custom work!
So whoever has a problem or can't find the way.... too bad, it's here if you want to find it and life is what you make of it.....


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## Traveler123

quinta said:


> Boy, I started reading this post to see if the Cost of Living was realistic (but it wasn't) and then I read all those posts from that very angry man hating living in Mexico.... he made me laugh so much being "the typical ugly American".... yet is was quite ugly too. Makes one think he got kidnapped by the wife and brought down here against his will, he sure must be a pleasure to live wit, lol
> In any case, people such as this example SHOULD NOT go anywhere out of the US for they can't live anywhere else. One thing travel does for open minded people is make you more aware of what makes us alike than different and where your happiness comes from (it comes from inside, angry man....) but for those of us that are OPEN to a challenge, and yes, Mexico is a challenge- and I'm both American (born in San Diego and Mexican, with dual citizenship) and have lived all over the world..... Mexico is what you make it.
> I am a Chef and am used to living well and I find food quality in Mexico is superior than the US food supply due to it being whole, natural and unspoiled. The US has a BIG problem with it's food supply since it began manipulating it and now it's unhealthy. You want US type meat? You mean loaded with hormones and chemicals? Really? You think it's better? You want convenience food? The type that fills you up but doesn't nourish you? Too bad....
> Vegetables with chemicals (so insects don't eat them and it won't spoil), drinks so full of chemicals and poisons that people literally die as a result? I don't know about you, but not us! We eat better and cheaper here.... no more food allergies (even the salt has aluminum), and we spend less too. Our family of four spends:
> $4500 pesos for a 3br/3ba condo in one of the best areas of PUEBLA
> $750 pesos for DSL Internet + Digital Cable TV + Unlimited phone use
> $500 pesos for electricity - every 2 months
> $90 pesos for water every two months
> $300 pesos for gas every 3 months (and I cook/bake/broil all the time!!!!)
> My biggest expense is food and I spend $6000 pesos a month on groceries including Meat, Poultry, Fish, Seafood, all natural cleaning supplies and paper products and anything else I can think of which is $1500 pesos a week and that's less than what I spent in the US.
> We go out and can spend between $150 pesos for breakfast to $900 pesos for a fancy meal and this is way lower than anywhere in the US... even in Las Vegas (where we lived and had a highly rated restaurant there too)
> We own a Mexican car, no tenencia and pay $4000 a year for complete insurance (I used to pay that a month in the US. I spend about $400 a month in gasoline too.
> So all in all we live on less than $1000 US Dollars a month and there's no way we could do that in the US which is why I work for pleasure and not because I need to and we can live on my husband's pension and still save every month!
> Oh and by the way, we live as we always have- same living standards and quality but better.
> PS.- Just bought a Frigidaire washer/dryer combo at Sam's and I paid $200 US less than I would have if I had bought it in the US. Also got a Sony Bravia Plasma TV at Sanborn's for $300 US less than the cost in the US... and my son had a computer specially made in Monterrey for HALF the cost of the same thing in the US (and with US components too!)...
> And as far as clothing.... I have a seamstress here that will make me anything I want (from any magazine like Vogue or Cosmo or anything) for $150 pesos- custom made! Of course I give her the material and even that is more than reasonable. Furniture? Got a Suede Sofa set (sofa, love seat, chair + 3 stone tables for $8000 pesos! That's less than $600 US.... and I have a carpenter or an iron work craftsman than can do anything I ask too.... custom. Had screens for all the windows (6 large ones), the baths (3) and enclosed the terrace all for under $2000 pesos, that's less than $150 US for custom work!
> So whoever has a problem or can't find the way.... too bad, it's here if you want to find it and life is what you make of it.....


I see that you are moving from Merida to Puebla. Any reason that you can share?


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## quinta

*From Merida to Puebla*



Traveler123 said:


> I see that you are moving from Merida to Puebla. Any reason that you can share?


It's a very simple reason, due to the hottest weather in Mexico (plus the humidity) which caused my son to develop "weeping eczema" which means his skin was bleeding! he had turned into "bubble boy" living under the AC 24/7 and both he and my husband did not do well in that climate so we decided, before the heat came in, to make a break for it and move to a cooler climate. We tried for over 3 years and found each year was hotter then the last.

Puebla's climate is fantastic and their health concerns have all but disappeared. We are very glad we moved (although I miss my friends in Merida), Puebla has a lot more to offer and people here are more "open minded" and welcoming than in Yucatan too. There are more expats in Yucatan (a lot more!) than in Puebla, but this has never been a concern for us at all. I don't see as many "imported" products in Puebla either, but we don't miss these either, it's just a comment.

We've lived in many areas of Mexico (the US and other countries as well) too so for the time being (we don't know how long we'll stay here either) Puebla is pretty nice. Large city, all the services, Colonial charm, good prices, great food, calm provincial city, University town, culture / arts / entertainment offerings, good travel center and close to all. What more could you ask for?


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## Traveler123

Thank you for the information, quinta. For anyone interested in learning more about Merida or communicating with other expats, is there a forum for Merida or Yucatan?


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## quinta

*Merida Infomation*

Merida has many souces of information that will give you up to date info on everything you might need, you will need to register (it's free) with either Yolisto: Clever Expatriates Sharing Things and Ideas in Yucatan, Mexico or www.meridainsider.com. You could also find more local information on Yucatan Today.

The first two blogs are quite popular and have hundreds of users that are very active and infomative. You'll love them!

Merida has a large expat community with everything you might need, like the English Library, the men's and women's clubs, volunteer opportunities, English speaking businesses and professionals and all the US products you remember. I was surprised by all this, if it wasn't for the heavy duty heat and humidity we would still be there as it is a tranquil, safe and beautiful area too! You can also choose between city or beach living since the beach communities are only about 30 min away...

Hope you find the info you are looking for..... if I can be of further help, don't hesitate to let me know


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## Traveler123

Thanks for the helpful information. I'm still exploring what part of Mexico is best for my retirement, but having information about Merida is very helpful, whether for a visit or longer. Thanks again.


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## BajaGringo

Wow, I get the feeling like I'm getting on the bus just blocks before its final stop! I actually took the time to read all ten pages of this thread and the different tangents it has taken. A couple of observations (personal opinions - not fact)...

1. The linked cost of living table is an interesting conversation piece but is about as relative/accurate as last weeks winner of the cutest baby contest. You could probably make a case for the values listed in each and every city to be high, low or just about right based on who you ask and their perspective.

2. I have seen retired expat couples with a combined net monthly retirement income of nearly $5k USD "struggle" to get by on that amount and I know of a single retired ****** living quite comfortably (and happy) on less than $800 USD per month. In fact he tells me he even puts 15-20% away in savings most months.

3. If you are coming to Mexico to eat the same food you ate back home, live in a home with all the same features and amenities you had back home and want to maintain basically the same lifestyle you had back home... Then just stay back home. You will probably be a whole lot happier and the locals will probably be just as happy to see you leave.

The expat life is not for everybody and it isn't a scarlett letter or anything. Just a simple fact and being able to be honest with yourself and realistic in your expectations. 

I even made up a check list of things one should consider before even thinking about moving to Mexico, based on my observations and experience of over 30 years living as an expat in several different countries throughout Latin America and the last seven in Mexico. I think that anybody who is even beginning to think about such a thing should first carefully consider the following:

If you are even thinking about retiring in Mexico, my suggestion would be to come down first and find a vacation home rental in a community where you are considering and spend a month minimum there. Once the new car smell wears off you will have a better chance to see the country for what it really is, with all its warts and cultural charm together.

Only then can you know if you might be a good candidate to live here and actually enjoy the experience. Some thrive here, others don't. It depends a lot on who you are. I have made my own list of the general traits I see in folks who seem to do well down here:

1. Bohemian
2. Self sufficient
3. Thick skinned
4. Easy going
5. Adaptable / flexible
6. Open minded
7. Adventurous
8. Non-complainer
9. Culturally inquisitive
10. Doesn't believe that you can't teach an old dog new tricks

In my 30+ years living in various parts of Latin America (Argentina / Venzuela / Brazil / Mexico); I have had a pretty good opportunity to see how this works. My experience is that expats who can be identified by these traits (I probably missed some others that could be included) are the ones who truly do well in Latin America.

Now you need to be able to ask yourself some questions and give brutally honest answers. Your retirement / expat life happiness may depend on that honesty. 

*Do any of the following particularly bother or upset you:*

1. Your neighbor who leaves his trash cans out, days after the garbage truck goes by.
2. Your neighbor who likes to play loud music at 11:30 at night.
3. Your neighbor who mows his lawn only once a month. When he does it is usually on a Saturday morning at 6:00 AM.
4. Your neighbor who likes to work on his car in front of his house. He has 3 more in back that he will get to eventually.
5. Your neighbor who likes to have family get togethers every weekend and their family is bigger than many mid-western towns.
6. The grocery store frequently does not have 2 of the 5 items you went there to buy.
7. Electricity going out 5 minutes before your favorite TV show is to begin.
8. Water pressure going out the evening your family arrives to spend the weekend.
9. The mechanic tells you he will have your car ready at 5:00 PM and you thought that meant today.
10. The plumber hooked up your new sink with the hot and cold water reversed.
11. Barking dogs, blasting advertising from loud speakers or honking vendors in your neighborhood at 7:00 AM. 
12. Are you the type to call the police, the city zoning enforcement officer or write letters to the editor of the local newspaper for everything that bugs you about things going on in your neighborhood back home, including any of the first 11 items in the list?

A yes answer to two or more of any of the above or especially to question 12, indicates that there is a strong possibility that Mexico may not be a good choice for you for anything more than vacations and an occasional dental appointment. 

If you are the type that can focus on the side of Mexico that does appeal to you and not let any of the above items in 1-11 bother you too much, then you just may be able to survive life as an expat in Mexico. In fact you might (gasp) actually learn to see life from a different perspective and come to the illogical conclusion that maybe there are a couple of things a third world country can teach us. (God forbid)

It is all about perspective and attitude IMHO.


YMMV


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## El Toro Furioso

Excellent observations. I agree with it all. I'll add one to the list:

You buy a house in a new town. The "senora que nos ayuda" or maid comes with the new home. You hire her to work three hours twice a week and a price is agreed upon. The first day, she arrives at 9am and leaves at 11am. You know this because you return home to go over some things with her at 11:05 and she's gone. Three days later you ask her why she only worked two hours. Her reply, "I worked three." You explain that you were there at 11am and she was gone. She says, "Senor, I worked 9, I worked 10 and I worked 11. Tres horas!" True story, just happened to us on our move from lakeside to the beach on the Costa Alegre. If you don't love her for this creativity, then you don't belong in Mexico.


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## BajaGringo

I like to call it Mexican Math...


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## MamaCalidad

BajaGringo said:


> *Do any of the following particularly bother or upset you:*
> 
> 1. Your neighbor who leaves his trash cans out, days after the garbage truck goes by.
> 2. Your neighbor who likes to play loud music at 11:30 at night.
> 3. Your neighbor who mows his lawn only once a month. When he does it is usually on a Saturday morning at 6:00 AM.
> 4. Your neighbor who likes to work on his car in front of his house. He has 3 more in back that he will get to eventually.
> 5. Your neighbor who likes to have family get togethers every weekend and their family is bigger than many mid-western towns.
> 6. The grocery store frequently does not have 2 of the 5 items you went there to buy.
> 7. Electricity going out 5 minutes before your favorite TV show is to begin.
> 8. Water pressure going out the evening your family arrives to spend the weekend.
> 9. The mechanic tells you he will have your car ready at 5:00 PM and you thought that meant today.
> 10. The plumber hooked up your new sink with the hot and cold water reversed.
> 11. Barking dogs, blasting advertising from loud speakers or honking vendors in your neighborhood at 7:00 AM.
> 12. Are you the type to call the police, the city zoning enforcement officer or write letters to the editor of the local newspaper for everything that bugs you about things going on in your neighborhood back home, including any of the first 11 items in the list?
> 
> A yes answer to two or more of any of the above or especially to question 12, indicates that there is a strong possibility that Mexico may not be a good choice for you for anything more than vacations and an occasional dental appointment.
> 
> If you are the type that can focus on the side of Mexico that does appeal to you and not let any of the above items in 1-11 bother you too much, then you just may be able to survive life as an expat in Mexico. In fact you might (gasp) actually learn to see life from a different perspective and come to the illogical conclusion that maybe there are a couple of things a third world country can teach us. (God forbid)
> 
> It is all about perspective and attitude IMHO.
> 
> 
> YMMV


:clap2: I haven't logged in here for a while, but I *had* to dig out my username and password to reply to this. Hilarious and spot on! 

I'll be honest, I about choked when I looked over the original "Cost of Living" chart and realized they were listing their figures in dollars!  For our area, we've found places to rent that were just fine for less pesos than what they have listed. As in, 1000 pesos rent rather than $1,000 rent. If you can live *in* Mexico rather than in CanAmerIco, you can live here very inexpensively.


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## mima27

Dang! We should move to Puebla ASAP! We just moved to Polanco and I'm finding quite a lot of things just as epensive as the US if not more. New furniture is out of the question and new appliances? I wish!


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## BajaGringo

I lived in Polanco for a short period of time back in 2002. I could afford to live there only because the home was provided to me under the terms of my contract while I was there. 

It is *VERY* expensive. Out of touch with about 99.999% of Mexico...


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## roni

I have looked at, pondered about and admired this cost of living issues for some time. I have friends who live in Quntana Roo and we have discussed this. I subscribe to a Lake Chapala based monthly e-magazine that has an annual cost-of-living article each January that tracks the expenses of 4-6 households each year - single people, married folks, a mother and daughter. I have talked and visited with a couple in San Miguel de Allende living on two social security checks. I've asked about and corresponded with expats living in Merida and the nearby Gulf Coast.

Close as I can tell the best answer is it depends . Most folks and most sources of information I have say it can be done well for $2,500 a month. Some say if they had $2,500 a month they would feel very wealthy. Much of this was in response to questions I have posed about whether it can be done on $2500 a month, and I have really discusses much beyond that. I have read one fellow who pays $1400 a month rent and I don't know what he spends overall

Hi quinta!! I remember from meridainsider! Hope your son is doing better.


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## quinta

*Hi.... I'm also on MeridaInsider too!*

Hi Roni!

Nice to hear from someone familiar with MeridaInsider.... I've been back and still waiting for their archives to return. I spoke to Bob the Webmaster and all will be brought back (including all our stuff!)....... made lots of good friends there too! But that was when we lived in Merida, Yucatan (was there for over 3 years) and have just now moved to Puebla.....
My son is MUCH better and his skin issues begun clearing up as soon as we left the Yucatan Peninsula, the humid heat and mold. His food allergies also went away so he has a normal diet too (he's thrilled as we are....) I miss my friends in Merida but not the weather..... oh well.....such is life.
Hope everyone is fine and healthy.... keep in touch! I also correspond regularly on my food / travel blog called http://belinadvertures.blogspot.com


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## RVGRINGO

A suggestion: Please use Quick Reply to avoid unnecessary quotations. That helps a lot to keep a 'conversation' on one page. Thanks.


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## maylane

Hello, Quinta...was there a difference in the cost of living between Merida and Puebla? Thanks for the info...Joyce


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## quinta

Yes, because you're talking about different climates so it changes your needs. Let me be more specific: Rent wise I can say it's about the same since you can find affordable housing in both places BUT it depends on what you are looking for, what area and what YOU consider livable. We had a large, furnished, 3br/2.5ba, 2 story house in Santiago in Merida for $7000 pesos which was great. We now have a 3br / 3ba unfurnished loft in Puebla for $4500.... I saw houses for about the same price here too but we didn't like them (too small and in gated communities) water here is $150 vs $60 pesos a month, electric a bit higher tariff here but you never need AC here where in Merida we used it when the temperature went up (which was often and always during Sprint to Fall), you also don't need a pool here. Gas the same, gasoline too, government fees comparable. Food might be different for different people if you need to buy American products (I use locally grown produce and meats, but do use European brands through) and shop in US chains (Costco, Sam's, Walmart, Pizza Hut, etc.) which most expats look for- we don't use them at all so there's a savings right there and consider I am a Chef so I am always cooking, baking and it's all a big production yet I can stay on my budget without problem. I should also mention we don't drink which is another savings.
Public transport here is very affordable and there is lots to do, the city is beautiful and offers much in the way of free or affordable entertainment options, it's also a very walkable city (as Merida is too except for the heat and sun that is..) I don't feel unsafe and have seen NO indication of crime and we walk often after dark in the historic center which is great too.
I am saving some money in Puebla on basic living expenses and food, plus Mexico City, Veracruz, Tlaxcala, etc. are all close by as well.....


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## Traveler123

quinta: Are you finding ways to meet people in Puebla? The cost of living sounds quite reasonable, from your post. Would you recommend Puebla to a single retired woman?


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## mexliving

*living in mexico*

i have a 3 bedroom place for 3,500 pesos per month:lol:
cable/internet 725 pesos
electricity every 2 months 263 pesos
2 weeks worth of vegetables 650 pesos down town vegetable market
gas 21 gallon tank 650 pesos red label
dominos pizza large crunchy 109 izza:
walmart top of the line steak 193 pesos per kilo
cigaretts 28 pesos per day
1 a week cleaning lady 100 pesos per week
groceries walmart per month 3,500 pesos 
propane for water heater 600 pesos for 3 months 
vip movie theater 90 pesos per person:clap2:
dinner for 2 280 pesos
oil change 40 pesos
car wash 60 pesos
radiator flush 50 pesos
all 4 rotors resurfaced 400 pesos
mobil engine oil synthetic 159 pesos per quart
throtle intake cleaning 600 pesos
8 hours auto motel 340 pesos 
2 liter bottle of softdrink 17 pesos
cheap cell phone 420 pesos
cell phone recharge card 500 pesos (you get 900 pesos worth)
mexico car insurance 6 months 242.oo dollars


its nice to live down here and not deal with the typical rat race in the usa.....


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## quinta

Traveler123, I have no problem meeting people in any part of the world, in Puebla I haven't found too many expats but since I am fluent in Spanish I'm not limited by language which opens up the circle of possible contacts.
If you need to have English speakers close by and an organized social scene to join I would encourage you to look into Merida Yucatan. There are other places as well like Puerto Vallarta, Lake Chapala, Ajijic, Cuernavaca, San Miguel Allende, Mazatlan, Acapulco and other regions where expats tend to congregate to, but if you don't need foreigners and are open to other experiences then you have more of the country open to you. Be aware that areas with more foreigners tend to be somewhat more expensive. Mexico is safe for single women.


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## Traveler123

mexliving said:


> i have a 3 bedroom place for 3,500 pesos per month:lol:
> cable/internet 725 pesos
> electricity every 2 months 263 pesos


Hi,
Thanks for sharing your budget. Where in Mexico do you live? Your costs seem reasonable, but the cable/internet seems high ($55/month, based on 725 pesos @ 13:1). Can you tell me a bit more about the high speed internet arrangement you have? What is the speed and does it include TV service for that price?


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## Traveler123

quinta said:


> Traveler123, I have no problem meeting people in any part of the world, in Puebla I haven't found too many expats but since I am fluent in Spanish I'm not limited by language which opens up the circle of possible contacts.
> Mexico is safe for single women.


quinta,
Thanks for your response. My Spanish is basic at this point, but I plan to learn a lot more Spanish before moving to Mexico next year. I'll be visiting various areas of Mexico over the next year as part of my research and will definitely include some of the areas you mentioned. I'm glad to hear that your perspective on safety for a single woman is positive.


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## quinta

$725 pesos a month for cable/internet doesn't seem unusual for Mexico. Comparing several Mexican cities for these services like Merida, Puebla, Zacatecas and Tlaxcala.... if you have service from Telmex (you'd need to purchase the phone line first at a cost of around $1,249 pesos + installation costs) plus their monthly costs are around $800 pesos for the bundle of internet and phone. Cable companies now offer tv/internet/phone bundles which begin around $199 for phone / Internet: 512K=$99; 1Mb=$149; 2Mb=$249 / Basic Cable TV $239; Premium Packages begin $175 and up. You'd pay additional for any phone extensions, additional tv's, digital service, voice mail, TiVo, HDTV, Cable Magazine, etc. While you may do without Internet, the bundles can't do away with phone or cable services. Even with basic services only you'd look at over $500 in charges (phone/512K/basic cable only) plus IVA tax a month and most people upgrade from basic services. I've seen bundle specials at $625 a month in most of these cities too.
Supposedly the new optic cable upgrade announced by CFE yesterday should give more competitive pricing soon but might just give more providers at the same prices as now, we'll have to wait to see if prices really do come down.
Plus you have to consider that depending on where you live you might be limited in which provider you can get service from too and only way to check is by having an actual address and comparing availability. Some people find it cheaper to just go to their neighborhood internet cafe and pay $10-14 an hour for broadband service most days and forgo service contracts with providers.


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## roni

I have subscribed to a pay newsletter for several years that updates cost of living information for the Lake Chapala area every January. They have about 6 households that track their costs and report it. They provide information on the households etc.. It has been interesting and informative, but I do not post the detailed information on non-pay sites. It is all right to note, however, that there is a wide range of costs - from approximately US$ 1,400 a month to over US$3,000 a month.

A lot of it depends on the individuals.


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## makaloco

Here's a link to the current Telmex packages:
Red Internet y precios Banda Ancha, Infinitum ADSL de Telmex


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## Traveler123

Thanks for the great information on the internet costs. Are the prices you listed all in pesos? I saw that pesos were mentioned in a few instances and wondered about the rest.


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## RVGRINGO

One should assume that prices listed in Mexico are in pesos. If in doubt, consider that the peso trades at about 12.5 to the US dollar and you can easily determine the more reasonable price.


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## juliemorrow

*Chihuahua*

Hello,

I noticed  you live in CHihuahua. I am moving there in July with my husband and 2 kids. We are moving from Oregon. Can you give me the "run down" on your experience living in Chihuahua?? Any suggestions on what we should bring down with us?? Any information would be helpful. Thanks! Julie

What I have frequently met are people "forced" by their company to go for a few years in less rich countries for experimenting local business ways - learning adaptability, patience and negociation skills - and then go back to their native country with a higher job and salary within the same company. Kind of mandatory purgatory. 
Maybe that one says it all.

I do not know if Bigmutt is in this situation, but I would extract from Bigmutt's message the following names : Cosco, USDA food, Ipod, Blockbuster, Target, JCPennys. Sounds to me like a genuine US world. I have never even thought about going to these shops in my last 5 years in Mexico but I still consider myself as middle-class guy. I just go to Soriana, Chedraui, Al super. Mexican stores. Food quality seems fine to me. I am still alive, slim and good looking (just kidding).

The situation would also differs according to the geographic location. 

Like, I have lived in Playa del Carmen (close to Cancun) for 3 years. 

- Not finding USDA meat would not be an issue as I would eat plenty of very cheap same-day-fished grilled fish (yummy !).
- Also, I would say no one really cares about wearing famous brands clothe.
- People order from the US through Internet waterproof cameras, tough laptops, and efficient surge protectors.

In Chihuahua - where I live now-, I have a much better meat quality then in Switzerland where I constantly had to watch the expiry date. Here the meat is 2 or 3 days old by the time it reaches my plate - and 4 times cheaper.

My simple advice would be : make your homework before leaving - thanks to this forum - , buy in your country everything which is cheaper before moving to Mexico (clothe and electronics for Americans) and you will be fine.

If I ever move to the USA, I will take along some real cheese (rejected by the USDA) and sausages, and tanks of gas.[/QUOTE]


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## BajaGringo

The attitude you bring with you in approaching your new life in Mexico is 90% of the quality of your experience here IMHO.

Maybe even more...


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## quinta

You got it BajaGringo, that's it. People who move here wanting to live as they do "back home" but a lot cheaper find that this isn't home and aren't willing to adapt and look at the new opportunities that exist here for them and so are unhappy with what they find. This is NOT back home but another country and it's different. Celebrate the differences. Are you up for the challenge? And it IS a challenge, believe me (even for those of us that are fluent and citizens as well, nobody escapes, lol)
Also, living in Mexico is NOT punishment, it's a reward actually; for us, my husband's health has improved considerably once we moved here and most of his health conditions either improved or disappeared, so for us it's been great. This was due to the quality of food mostly, getting rid of chemicals, additives, hormones, colorants, etc. Yes, it's a lot of work but it's worth it. But you get out of it what you put into it and your attitude is key. 
For those unwilling to change, adapt and renew themselves my advice is stay home.


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## LIGMD

*House insurance*

I have a new house in Cabo San Lucas. Can anyone give me advice on house insurance? House is cement and well protected in a guarded gated community. Any info on insurance companies, costs and what is covered?


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## RVGRINGO

You should shop around with the local insurance agencies in Cabo San Lucas. Many folks don't worry too much about fire, earthquakes, etc. and simply go without. Your best references will come from your neighbors, not from those of us on the mainland; a different world with a different economy.


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## quinta

I used to sell real estate in Merida, Yucatan and was surprised when I found that most people didn't carry homeowner's insurance on their properties due to the difference in the building materials here vs. the US; coastal area owner's usually only carried hurricane insurance which you can only buy out of the hurricane season (so you'd need to wait until after November) to cover the next season. 
There are many national carriers in Mexico and you can ask them directly about coverage in your specific area, you might also look for an independent agent that represents most companies so they can give you a comparison of rates and coverages.


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## LIGMD

*Construction costs*

I am looking at doing some landscaping in my back yard. I want to build a palapa for shade, finish the back yard in Cantera tiles, small fence to close off the pool and do some cement walls 2 1/2 feet high. Being a newbie to Mexico I have no idea about construction costs. I have an idea what such work would cost in Montreal. Can anyone give any guidance? House is in Cabo San Lucas.


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## bigmutt

*house insurance.*



LIGMD said:


> I have a new house in Cabo San Lucas. Can anyone give me advice on house insurance? House is cement and well protected in a guarded gated community. Any info on insurance companies, costs and what is covered?


I researched, shopped around, and found the best for me was Bancomer. 
I found that not all of them insure equally against falling branches (or trees) that are off your property, for example. 
They also vary as to coverage for theft by your domestic;
Bancomer package also had lowest deductibles. 

however, your mileage may vary.


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## LIGMD

*Banking in Mexico*



bigmutt said:


> I researched, shopped around, and found the best for me was Bancomer.
> I found that not all of them insure equally against falling branches (or trees) that are off your property, for example.
> They also vary as to coverage for theft by your domestic;
> Bancomer package also had lowest deductibles.
> 
> however, your mileage may vary.


Thanks for your input. Interesting that you mentioned Bancomer. I arranged my Bank accounts with them. I wanted accounts for my wife and I in Pesos and USD and a separate joint account with my accountant so that he could do my property management ie pay the bills. Now I have 6 bank cards plus 2 encryption cards for access to my accounts online. The online accounts were difficult to set up but finally after many attempts I succeeded. Only problem is that when the accountant goes online to our separate joint account he has access to all the accounts...not good!

I later found out that there is a 2% IDE tax on all cash deposits. I was wondering why some of the money was disappearing. There have been some other service charges that I have appeared on my online statements that I have been unable to determine yet.

Banking in Mexico is very different from Canada! I will have to sort this out when I am back in Cabo in September.

Until now I have deposited cash in the accounts; therefore, I am loosing 2% each time. I could wire the money but there is a service charge each time plus the inconvenience. I do not know if there is a charge for depositing Travelers Checks. These are things I have to work out.:juggle:

I hope the water, telephone, internet, electricity, taxes, etc will be less complicated!!


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## f3drivr

LIGMD said:


> Thanks for your input. Interesting that you mentioned Bancomer. I arranged my Bank accounts with them. I wanted accounts for my wife and I in Pesos and USD and a separate joint account with my accountant so that he could do my property management ie pay the bills. Now I have 6 bank cards plus 2 encryption cards for access to my accounts online. The online accounts were difficult to set up but finally after many attempts I succeeded. Only problem is that when the accountant goes online to our separate joint account he has access to all the accounts...not good!
> 
> I later found out that there is a 2% IDE tax on all cash deposits. I was wondering why some of the money was disappearing. There have been some other service charges that I have appeared on my online statements that I have been unable to determine yet.
> 
> Banking in Mexico is very different from Canada! I will have to sort this out when I am back in Cabo in September.
> 
> Until now I have deposited cash in the accounts; therefore, I am loosing 2% each time. I could wire the money but there is a service charge each time plus the inconvenience. I do not know if there is a charge for depositing Travelers Checks. These are things I have to work out.:juggle:
> 
> I hope the water, telephone, internet, electricity, taxes, etc will be less complicated!!


You might want to look at setting up an account with XE.com. You can trade currency online and send it right from your account in Canada to your account in Mexico. They charge $20 for wire transfers which is less than the banks charge and on transactions less than $10,000 there is usually a fee of 1.79% which is less than the 2.5% that the banks charge. You can also get bank drafts in MXN pesos for no charge and deposit them into your Mexican account but it usually takes time for them to clear. 

You can arrange to have your electric bills paid automatically from your Mexican Bank account, not sure about water internet and phone. We always leave money with somebody to pay our taxes for us in person.


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## bigmutt

After trying many different options over the past ten years I've found by far the cheapest AND easiest is using Paypal. You have one PayPal acct in Canada and another one in Mexico and both can easily transfer cross-currency between them PLUS transfer to-and-from your Bancomer account. And it's all online for easy monitoring.


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## f3drivr

Paypal charges a 2.5% currency conversion fee and a 0.5% transaction fee.


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## El Toro Furioso

Banamex pays our local utility bills at no charge. We pay credit cards on line with no fee. We still haven't figured out how to get pesos from NoB for no charge, but we have a big peso acct with Banco Multiva. They are the best. Basically no fees for anything day to day.


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## Joycee

Has anyone tried SafeSend with Bank of America? We are in the US but we frequently send money to our relatives in Mexico. It costs nothing and we can send up to $1500 per transaction with a maximum of $3,000 per checking account. The money has to be sent to a bank and you have to go pick it up with identifcation and pass code. I asked if we could initiate SafeSend from Mexico once we move and was told we could do so by calling BOA.
Hope that helps.
Joycee


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## bigmutt

*Paypal*



f3drivr said:


> Paypal charges a 2.5% currency conversion fee and a 0.5% transaction fee.


Not correct: There is no currency conversion fee and a $1.00 transaction fee for withdrawals. 

Been doing it for 8 years, about 3 or 4 times every month. The currency conversion rate is same rate as any credit card rate.

Maybe it depends on whether you have a Premier acct or Personal acct. (both are free of annual fees).

In fact, there are *no conversion fees *and only a $1.00 transaction fee for withdrawals, *no matter what country you are in.* Great for travel all over the world. I use it it Europe, mainland China, Africa, south America ....... everywhere.


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## f3drivr

bigmutt said:


> Not correct: There is no currency conversion fee and a $1.00 transaction fee for withdrawals.
> 
> Been doing it for 8 years, about 3 or 4 times every month. The currency conversion rate is same rate as any credit card rate.
> 
> Maybe it depends on whether you have a Premier acct or Personal acct. (both are free of annual fees).
> 
> In fact, there are *no conversion fees *and only a $1.00 transaction fee for withdrawals, *no matter what country you are in.* Great for travel all over the world. I use it it Europe, mainland China, Africa, south America ....... everywhere.


According to Paypal's site they charge a fee: User Agreement - PayPal Debit Card Policy - PayPal 
It is hidden in the exchange rate so you probably don't notice it. The fee is what they charge you above the interbank rate which is the rates that the banks trade currency at. Most credit cards charge it too so it would be the same as a credit card rate. 
Using a Bank of America ATM Card on ATM's from banks that belong to the Global ATM Alliance (Scotiabank or Serfin Santander) seems like the best deal for people who are taking money from the US seems like the best deal with a fee of 1%. Scotiabank in Canada belongs to the alliance as well but they charge 2.5% the same as every other Canadian Bank.


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## quinta

I also use Bancomer- I have all my banking with Wells Fargo in the US and they have signed agreements with Bancomer in Mexico- you notify Wells Fargo and they set up the link with Bancomer and only charge you $3 per transaction (which can be up to the limit on your account) PLUS they give the best exchange rates and have many, many ATM's and online banking as well, so you can do the transfers on your own (both in Mexico and the US)- I used Banamex before and there is no comparison, Bancomer is much better and cheaper!


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## f3drivr

bigmutt said:


> Not correct: There is no currency conversion fee and a $1.00 transaction fee for withdrawals.
> 
> Been doing it for 8 years, about 3 or 4 times every month. The currency conversion rate is same rate as any credit card rate.
> 
> Maybe it depends on whether you have a Premier acct or Personal acct. (both are free of annual fees).
> 
> In fact, there are *no conversion fees *and only a $1.00 transaction fee for withdrawals, *no matter what country you are in.* Great for travel all over the world. I use it it Europe, mainland China, Africa, south America ....... everywhere.


Sorry... when I wrote my last post I thought we were talking about the paypal debit card. Here is a link to the paypal fees for sending money from one paypal account to another: https://www.paypal.com/al/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/ua/policy_fees-outside

For sending to Mexico you would pay the 0.5% for "Elsewhere" plus the 2.5% above the interbank rate for currency conversion.


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## bigmutt

f3drivr said:


> .............It is hidden in the exchange rate so you probably don't notice it. The fee is what they charge you above the interbank rate which is the rates that the banks trade currency at. Most credit cards charge it too so it would be the same as a credit card rate.


Okay, I don't know why I'm wasting my time answering members' questions here when they (the answers) are not understood or not believed by some, but ....... let me try it again:

Yes, PayPal charges those fees you mentioned _when transfering from US (or Cnd) PayPal to Mexican PayPal accounts_; but to get around those associated fees, you withdraw your US or Cnd dollars _in mexico _in the form of pesos, with your PayPal debit card (for which there is only a $1.00 fee, no conversion fee or exchange fee) and then you can deposit it in Bancomer and transfer it to your Mexican PayPal account for no fees at all. Do it online and it shows up the next day.
As well, you can transfer it in the other direction (PayPal to Bancomer) for no fees at all.

As for this _"hidden exchange fee" _ you talk about: no, there's nothing *hidden *about the exchange rate. It's interbank rate PLUS a little less than 2%, which is the going rate *no matter where you do it:* credit cards, directly at the bank, at an exchange house ......... everywhere. There is no way to get the straight interbank rate unless ........ well, unless you're another bank.

Sorry if I didn't spell it out in enough detail before.

I check the exchange rate with PayPal every so often and compare it to the other available methods of exchange, and it's the lowest-cost way of doing it. 
The signs you see in bank windows that advertise their Buy/Sell rates on foreign currency?? these are not the interbank rates you mentioned: these also already have the *"hidden exchange fee"* factored in. So doing it with PayPal costs just slightly less than these rates.

Sometimes I'm forced to use my Wells Fargo debit card or credit card here in Mexico or other places in the world, and their fees (transaction and exchange) are always higher than PayPal, even though I have their most premium account and have been with them for 25 years. I signed up with PayPal a year before moving to Mexico (2000) and although they were much better before eBay bought them, they're still the best way to go when you're straddling two (or more) countries. (I have no eBay stock nor any interest in promoting PayPal other than it works smoothly).


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## BajaGringo

Expect for many of those fees to be going up as banks are looking for new ways to recoup their record losses. Foreign exchange seems like such an easy mark...


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## f3drivr

bigmutt said:


> Okay, I don't know why I'm wasting my time answering members' questions here when they (the answers) are not understood or not believed by some, but ....... let me try it again:
> 
> Yes, PayPal charges those fees you mentioned _when transfering from US (or Cnd) PayPal to Mexican PayPal accounts_; but to get around those associated fees, you withdraw your US or Cnd dollars _in mexico _in the form of pesos, with your PayPal debit card (for which there is only a $1.00 fee, no conversion fee or exchange fee) and then you can deposit it in Bancomer and transfer it to your Mexican PayPal account for no fees at all. Do it online and it shows up the next day.
> As well, you can transfer it in the other direction (PayPal to Bancomer) for no fees at all.
> 
> As for this _"hidden exchange fee" _ you talk about: no, there's nothing *hidden *about the exchange rate. It's interbank rate PLUS a little less than 2%, which is the going rate *no matter where you do it:* credit cards, directly at the bank, at an exchange house ......... everywhere. There is no way to get the straight interbank rate unless ........ well, unless you're another bank.
> 
> Sorry if I didn't spell it out in enough detail before.
> 
> I check the exchange rate with PayPal every so often and compare it to the other available methods of exchange, and it's the lowest-cost way of doing it.
> The signs you see in bank windows that advertise their Buy/Sell rates on foreign currency?? these are not the interbank rates you mentioned: these also already have the *"hidden exchange fee"* factored in. So doing it with PayPal costs just slightly less than these rates.
> 
> Sometimes I'm forced to use my Wells Fargo debit card or credit card here in Mexico or other places in the world, and their fees (transaction and exchange) are always higher than PayPal, even though I have their most premium account and have been with them for 25 years. I signed up with PayPal a year before moving to Mexico (2000) and although they were much better before eBay bought them, they're still the best way to go when you're straddling two (or more) countries. (I have no eBay stock nor any interest in promoting PayPal other than it works smoothly).


You are paying 1% for using a non-US ATM plus 2.5% for currency conversion plus a fixed fee of $1.00. The fees are posted right here: User Agreement - PayPal Debit Card Policy - PayPal

Of course you can not exchange at interbank rate but Bank of America only charges 1% over the interbank at Global ATM Alliance machines with no fixed fees. That's better than 3.5% plus $1.00. 

XE.com charges 1.79% over Interbank for trades up to $10,000, 1.5% $10,000-$50,000 and 1.1% over $50,000.


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## f3drivr

I did some more research and it seems that Paypal may not charge the 2.5% with the debit card. If that is true then it's not a bad deal. Paypal offered debit cards for Canadian accounts for a limited time but they are no longer available, if they were I would be interested in getting one and calculating how much they charge me. Here is a list of fees charged by different banks in the US, see the section for Credit/Debit/ATM cards: Credit/Debit/ATM Cards and Foreign Exchange - FlyerGuide Wiki

Most Canadian Banks charge 2.5%.


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## El Toro Furioso

Sorry to pop into this bank rate and fee thread (which has nothing to do with the original one) but how do I stand just depositing Citibank USD checks into Multiva where we have an account? They give us the full posted rate, which I understand already has their cut included. We have to wait about two weeks for the check to clear, which so far has posed no problem. Can I do better than this with PayPal or someone else?

PS: I said, Doc, how do I stand? He said, that's what puzzles me.--Henny Youngman


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## f3drivr

El Toro Furioso said:


> Sorry to pop into this bank rate and fee thread (which has nothing to do with the original one) but how do I stand just depositing Citibank USD checks into Multiva where we have an account? They give us the full posted rate, which I understand already has their cut included. We have to wait about two weeks for the check to clear, which so far has posed no problem. Can I do better than this with PayPal or someone else?
> 
> PS: I said, Doc, how do I stand? He said, that's what puzzles me.--Henny Youngman


The next time you make a deposit write down the exchange rate they give you and then go to the xe.com homepage where they post the interbank rate. Then you will know how much they are charging you and if you might do better somewhere else. The interbank rate fluctuates throughout the day so the faster you can get to a computer to check the more accurate it will be.


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