# Job offer, auslanderbehörde, and waiting. Help?



## Lea_OR

I hope someone can help with this. I'm from the US - moved here and found a job, got it, signed a contract, and went to auslanderbehörde. A very unhelpful lady tried to turn me away multiple times, and I had to insist I had all the necessary documents, the form signed by an employer, job contract, etc. she told me they would need to forward this to the authorities (I'm assuming the job agency, not sure what it's called in German... Bundesagentur fur arbeit? Zav? I'm confused) I've been waiting for a week, and know it could take longer... But I was trying to see if there was a way to check my status. Luckily I have an awesome German roommate who is willing to help and my job is willing to wait for me. She called the auslanderbehörde to ask, and was hung up on ("can't the woman speak German herself?" Ugh). We are trying to find the right place to call. 

I'm also kind of wondering my chances. The job is short term and technically, an "internship" though my employer has intimated that it would lead to full time employment. Also it is quite well paid. I'm worried though, because I have an MA, that they will deny me because I know "internship" usually denotes that I have not finished my studies. The company still hired me... Basically it's marketing for English speaking markets and they were looking for an English native with experience which I have. 

I feel quite lucky for landing all of this, but depressed that it could all be for nothing... And frankly though I have savings they are being rapidly depleted by paying for daily expenses without any income coming in. Any advice would be greatly appreciated -- any way to speed up the process, or even figure out where I stand? Maybe get my company's HR involved?

Thanks!


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## *Sunshine*

Only foreign students are eligible for internship permits. You can find more info and the ZAV contact details here: 

https://www.arbeitsagentur.de/web/c...il/index.htm?dfContentId=L6019022DSTBAI520435

Furthermore, the ZAV very often takes a few weeks to process applications that are not clear cut.


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## ALKB

German authorities are very careful never to give a binding time frame in which something has to be processed. It takes as long as it takes.

I heard that approval from the federal labour department usually takes 3-6 weeks but that information is about three years old, so don't know how relevant this still is.


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## Lea_OR

I'm not sure only students are eligible, though! My German roommate confirms... Also, why would this job hire me knowing I would just get rejected?


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## *Sunshine*

Lea_OR said:


> Also, why would this job hire me knowing I would just get rejected?


Unfortunately many (if not most) German employers are not familiar with the rules.

Have your roommate read the info on the website in my previous post and then call the ZAV regarding internship permits for foreign graduates.


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## ALKB

You might just get a regular work permit instead of a specific internship permit, especially since you job is paid.

A quick google shows that even for third country students enrolled in university, ZAV takes at least 3 weeks.

Did you get a document stating that you applied for a permit and that you can stay until this is decided?

You can try to call here:

https://www.arbeitsagentur.de/web/c...il/index.htm?dfContentId=L6019022DSTBAI776745


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## *Sunshine*

Then the next questions are whether she is being paid enough to obtain a regular permit and if she needs to submit a new application.


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## ALKB

*Sunshine* said:


> Then the next questions are whether she is being paid enough to obtain a regular permit and if she needs to submit a new application.


I don't know how much she'll be paid or what kind of documents the employer has provided, so really can't comment.

Personally, I think the websites of German Embassies in countries like the USA, Canada and Australia should be clearer on what is meant when they say that nationals eligible for visa waiver entry can apply for a work permit in-country. It should state that it is not a quick process if they don't already have a job offer and ZAV approval in hand when entering Germany. 

Job hunting, getting approval and then processing of the work permit is not done in a few days and people underestimate cost of living when unable to work at all.


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## Nononymous

By all accounts the Berlin Ausländerbehörde is a bit of a gong show these days, they won't answer e-mails, and may in fact be legally prevented from discussing a third party over the phone unless some sort of authorization is on file - in other words, you can bring your friend to translate because you are present, but you can't have a friend call on your behalf (hence the bitchy "speak German" comment). 

I would think under current conditions 1-2 months would be expected.

It's not totally clear where the line between internship and job is, certainly not in this case. One outcome might be a work permit for the specific job for the period of time under contract, then to renew or make it permanent would require an entirely new application. The fact that it went off to the Arbeitsamt suggests that they're treating it as a regular job; had it been a purely "academic" internship, it might have been approved on the spot, as with research appointments (the "Wissenschäftler" department of the Ausländerbehörde is relatively friendly). So who knows what the chances are.

I agree, the embassy web sites could be a bit clearer. Folks should know that they can burn savings for 3+ months waiting for the paperwork to go through, and there is no guarantee of success. Much simpler if you get the offer before arriving and have it all taken care of with a visa application, but of course that means job-hunting from afar and long timelines. 

And yes, sometimes German employers don't have a clue. They assume that if you're applying for the job, you're legal to work. Or they don't care. The last folks I did a project with never wanted to see the sticker in my passport, of which I was so proud. They just needed some sort of tax or business number on the invoice.


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## Lea_OR

Thanks for your replies everyone. Luckily I still have plenty of time left (well, sort of) on my tourist visa before its up. I applied like crazy for jobs before I moved, but for some reason being here was the magic bullet that got me job offers.

No, the job is not well paid enough to do it under a regular job offer... The duration for this contract is only three months. 

After finally calling ZAV twice to check on whether my paperwork had arrived and being told no, I went back to the auslanderbehörde yesterday (two weeks after originally showing up). Turns out they sat on my paperwork for over a week before mailing them, so it was mailed a few days ago and probably just arrived at the ZAV.

After reading more my main concern now is this - the auslanderbehörde lady barely looked at my forms before saying we need to send these off, and didn't ask for copies of my diplomas or a biometric picture or anything (I offered them). Is this a later requirement when I have to return to the auslanderbehörde ? 

Basically I have this nagging feeling in my gut that I'm going to be denied... My employer seems willing to change the contract to new dates, and it's possible they could call it short term employment rather than an internship, but I'm seriously stressing that I'm waiting all this time and I'm just going to get bad news back :/


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## Lea_OR

"
Did you get a document stating that you applied for a permit and that you can stay until this is decided?"

Psh, no, I didn't exactly need it but they certainly wanted me out of the office asap


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## Nononymous

Lea_OR said:


> After reading more my main concern now is this - the auslanderbehörde lady barely looked at my forms before saying we need to send these off, and didn't ask for copies of my diplomas or a biometric picture or anything (I offered them). Is this a later requirement when I have to return to the auslanderbehörde ?


The photos, diplomas etc. would all be necessary for the residence permit, but it sounds like they're not going to let you make that application until there's a ja/nein from the ZAV. 



> Basically I have this nagging feeling in my gut that I'm going to be denied... My employer seems willing to change the contract to new dates, and it's possible they could call it short term employment rather than an internship, but I'm seriously stressing that I'm waiting all this time and I'm just going to get bad news back :/


Could well be the case, but that's the risk you take. It's still not clear to me what exactly the distinction between "internship" and "short term employment" is. I expect the authorities are just treating it as a temporary job, since you've graduated and it's not part of any current academic program, but that's just my guess.



> Did you get a document stating that you applied for a permit and that you can stay until this is decided?"
> 
> Psh, no, I didn't exactly need it but they certainly wanted me out of the office asap


If you are getting towards the end of your 90 days, the employer is still interested, you're not yet broke, and there hasn't been a decision, you can apply for something called a Fiktionsbescheinigung, which will extend your Schengen visa until they've made up their minds. In theory they won't toss you out just because it's taking forever.


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## *Sunshine*

Lea_OR said:


> After reading more my main concern now is this - the auslanderbehörde lady barely looked at my forms before saying we need to send these off, and didn't ask for copies of my diplomas or a biometric picture or anything (I offered them). Is this a later requirement when I have to return to the auslanderbehörde ?


What exactly is the postion? What we're you offered?

It sounds as if you applied for a permit you have no chance of receiving and the overworked bureaucrats only accepted your application because you insisted.


@ALKB 

I can't agree with you more regarding the info on the German websites; it is much too abstract and misleading. 

@Nononymous

The distinction between internship and "real job" from a work permit perspective is quite clear; if a foreigner is not eligible for an internship permit a labour market assessment is necessary.


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## Lea_OR

@sunshine when you say I insisted, I think it's because above In my original post I describe her trying to turn me away and me persisting. Let me explain - I walked in and she asked for my passport. Without asking anything else she gave it back and told me to make an appointment online after I had waited a few hours. I told her, in German, no, I have this new job offer, and she started trying to give me a blank form that the employer fills out on behalf of the employee for me (I already had it, showed it to her). She did this with two more forms, until I said no, I've got everything, and I have job contracts, until finally she just rolled her eyes and told me they need to send this off. I don't really think I badgered anyone into doing anything, besides their job (and yes, I was polite).

I'm still not certain the difference between temporary job and internship either, other than the title, which hopefully my employer would be open to changing if necessary. It's a marketing position, which I have no direct work experience doing but a degree in humanities where I studied user research. So essentially it would be training for that, and I would be learning something. at a fair pay rate. The only difference is I'm not a student, But as soon as I graduated I went traveling, so this is my first post-graduation job. didn't really offer me the option to explain that on the form, though....


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## Bevdeforges

Just be careful with this one. I lived and worked in Germany for a while (quite some time ago, I admit) and when it comes to The Rules, the Germans generally play it strictly by the book. If an "internship" requires that you be a student (and most university and other training programs in Germany require their students to do an internship as part of the program) then you won't get an "internship" visa if you're not currently a student.

There are pros and cons to this attitude, but it's pretty much the rule throughout Germany. All I'm saying is that you shouldn't get your hopes up - and be sure to have a "plan B" in case things don't work out the way you want them to.
Cheers,
Bev


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## Lea_OR

Bevdeforges said:


> Just be careful with this one. I lived and worked in Germany for a while (quite some time ago, I admit) and when it comes to The Rules, the Germans generally play it strictly by the book. If an "internship" requires that you be a student (and most university and other training programs in Germany require their students to do an internship as part of the program) then you won't get an "internship" visa if you're not currently a student.
> 
> There are pros and cons to this attitude, but it's pretty much the rule throughout Germany. All I'm saying is that you shouldn't get your hopes up - and be sure to have a "plan B" in case things don't work out the way you want them to.
> Cheers,
> Bev



I'm coming to realize that... Thanks for the advice


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## *Sunshine*

Lea_OR said:


> It's a marketing position, which I have no direct work experience doing but a degree in humanities where I studied user research. So essentially it would be training for that, and I would be learning something. at a fair pay rate.


I’m sorry, but I don’t really see any reason why should be issued a work permit. 

1)	Internships are meant as an opportunity for students to gain experience during their studies (that they are very often misused is another issue, however, there is no reason for the authorities to make wage dumping easier). 

2)	Germany has enough unemployed humanities graduates who can’t find jobs who could easily fill this position. 

3)	Foreign graduates of German universities are entitled to work for 18 months after graduation at any position.

4)	Foreign professionals who want to work in Germany are expected to find positions suitable to their education and skills. 

Furthermore, if you read §15 BeschV you will see that you clearly do not qualify for an internship permit. 



> Verordnung über die Beschäftigung von Ausländerinnen und Ausländern (Beschäftigungsverordnung - BeschV)
> 
> § 15 Praktika zu Weiterbildungszwecken
> 
> 
> Keiner Zustimmung bedarf die Erteilung eines Aufenthaltstitels für ein Praktikum
> 
> 1. während eines Aufenthaltes zum Zweck der schulischen Ausbildung oder des Studiums, das vorgeschriebener Bestandteil der Ausbildung ist oder zur Erreichung des Ausbildungszieles nachweislich erforderlich ist,
> 
> 2. im Rahmen eines von der Europäischen Union oder der bilateralen Entwicklungszusammenarbeit finanziell geförderten Programms,
> 
> 3. mit einer Dauer von bis zu einem Jahr im Rahmen eines internationalen Austauschprogramms von Verbänden, öffentlich-rechtlichen Einrichtungen oder studentischen Organisationen an Studierende oder Absolventen ausländischer Hochschulen im Einvernehmen mit der Bundesagentur für Arbeit,
> 
> 4. an Fach- und Führungskräfte, die ein Stipendium aus öffentlichen deutschen Mitteln, Mitteln der Europäischen Union oder Mitteln internationaler zwischenstaatlicher Organisationen erhalten, oder
> 
> 5. mit einer Dauer von bis zu einem Jahr während eines Studiums an einer ausländischen Hochschule, das nach dem vierten Semester studienfachbezogen im Einvernehmen mit der Bundesagentur für Arbeit ausgeübt wird.


1)	Does not apply to you since the internship is not required for part of your studies.

2)	Does not apply to you since it is not part of an EU or development project. 

3)	Does not apply to you since the internship is not part of an official program approved by the Agentur für Arbeit

4)	Does not apply to you since you are neither an executive nor a specialist and are not receiving a government sponsored scholarship.

5)	Does not apply to you since you are not a student. 

If the company is still interested in hiring you, they should offer you a proper contract with an adequate salary. If not, you should look for another job.


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## Nononymous

I did say, way back at the beginning, that the risks here might be due to confusion between the American understanding of internship - a ****ty job necessary to eventually get a better job that rich kids can afford to take because their parents are paying the rent - and the German understanding of internship - a work placement as part of an academic or vocational study program.

Showing up at the Ausländerbehörde with degree in hand plus an offer for a 500 euro/month temporary job probably doesn't look like an internship. It just looks like a bad job, the sort for which work permits generally aren't granted. 

I'm sure it's been done, but I think it somehow needed to be framed differently, and maybe started with a visa. Or who knows, you'll get lucky.

The other option, if it truly was a work placement you were after rather than a semi-permanent move, would be to come for 90 days as a tourist and gain some experience in exchange for an "honorarium" - that's a fancy way of saying work under the table. But you'd need to leave after three months.


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## Lea_OR

Nononymous said:


> I did say, way back at the beginning, that the risks here might be due to confusion between the American understanding of internship - a ****ty job necessary to eventually get a better job that rich kids can afford to take because their parents are paying the rent - and the German understanding of internship - a work placement as part of an academic or vocational study program.
> 
> Showing up at the Ausländerbehörde with degree in hand plus an offer for a 500 euro/month temporary job probably doesn't look like an internship. It just looks like a bad job, the sort for which work permits generally aren't granted.
> 
> I'm sure it's been done, but I think it somehow needed to be framed differently, and maybe started with a visa. Or who knows, you'll get lucky.
> 
> The other option, if it truly was a work placement you were after rather than a semi-permanent move, would be to come for 90 days as a tourist and gain some experience in exchange for an "honorarium" - that's a fancy way of saying work under the table. But you'd need to leave after three months.


Totally, point taken. I just think the company frames their opportunities in kind of a weird way. In my case I originally applied for something they considered a mini job which was only suitable for students, but they saw I had completed my studies and encouraged me to apply for an internship because a full time position was possible after that. So I think they are considering "internship" less like a "Praktikum" and more like a "traineeship," which IS a different kind of visa. In any regard I think all I can do is wait ...


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## Lea_OR

^^ also, I'm already here living in Berlin, 1 month into my tourist visa


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## Nononymous

As has been noted, German employers don't always know how to go about hiring non-EU foreigners.


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## Nononymous

Lea_OR said:


> ^^ also, I'm already here living in Berlin, 1 month into my tourist visa


Linguistic tip: if you want to speak English like someone who's been in Germany for years, say "I am already here living in Berlin since 1 month". You know you're bilingual when it begins wrecking your English.


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## Lea_OR

Great news from the ZAV, thought I would post if anyone else is having the same issue and happens to be reading...

The auslanderbehörde took over a week to send my paperwork (lame), but by calling with your basic info the ZAV can look you up in their system (they do speak English or are happy speaking German to people calling on your behalf) and see if your paperwork has arrived. 

Turns out internships are available to Everyone (graduates and non graduates), as long as it's in your field (which in my case it is). Then when I get approval and go back to the auslanderbehörde, I would need to apply for a work permit, not the internship permit (even though that's the "title" of my job, it's not an internship in the German sense where I need to be a student).. So now about another week of waiting to hear from them.

Anyone know once I go back to the auslanderbehörde how long it takes to process? I know for freelance visas they tell you on the spot... Or if they do take time with my residence permit, and I permitted to work in the interim before I go pick it up?


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## Nononymous

I would hope that with ZAV approval, assuming you get it of course, the actual residence permit would be done the same day, provided you had all other ducks in a row - sufficient funds to support yourself if the salary needed topping up, health insurance, etc. No idea if that will happen, but it's not unreasonable to hope.

Expect the residence permit to only be good for the duration of the contract. If they offer you a permanent job it would be back to square one.


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