# UK citizenship



## NY Joe (Aug 18, 2012)

Hello from New York. I am a US citizen born of post war immigrants from the UK. I am exploring the idea of dual US/UK citizenship based on decendancy. I have worn out my keyboard chasing my tail on the UK border agency website. I just want some simple and clear answers, but a website designed to save money while being all things to all people can only be very confusing. Phone contact is just a series of recordings designed to further confuse. As far as I can tell, I am entitled to register as a British Citizen based on decendancy and being born before 1983. This seems to include the Right of Abode. However, it also seems that I must obtain a right of abode certificate before applying for citizenship, although this is not consistently clear. The fees involved for either application are outragous. Is there anyone with the same background who can shed some light on this process? Thanks in advance. J


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

NY Joe said:


> Hello from New York. I am a US citizen born of post war immigrants from the UK. I am exploring the idea of dual US/UK citizenship based on decendancy. I have worn out my keyboard chasing my tail on the UK border agency website. I just want some simple and clear answers, but a website designed to save money while being all things to all people can only be very confusing. Phone contact is just a series of recordings designed to further confuse. As far as I can tell, I am entitled to register as a British Citizen based on decendancy and being born before 1983. This seems to include the Right of Abode. However, it also seems that I must obtain a right of abode certificate before applying for citizenship, although this is not consistently clear. The fees involved for either application are outragous. Is there anyone with the same background who can shed some light on this process? Thanks in advance. J


Was either of your parents a British citizen? And were they still a citizen (not given up) when you were born?


----------



## NY Joe (Aug 18, 2012)

Hi Joppa...my mother was born in London in 1923. My father was US soldier and they were married in London in 1945. She arrived in the usa 1947. I was born in the USA in 1950. She became a US Citizen in 1953. I think the UK continued to classify her as a British subject despite her US Citizenship. 

Thanks for you interest. I've been chasing my tail on this for years!!

Joe


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

NY Joe said:


> Hi Joppa...my mother was born in London in 1923. My father was US soldier and they were married in London in 1945. She arrived in the usa 1947. I was born in the USA in 1950. She became a US Citizen in 1953. I think the UK continued to classify her as a British subject despite her US Citizenship.


You can register as British citizen by virtue of being born of a British mother outside of UK before 1983.
See UK Border Agency | Can I register as a British citizen if I was born before 1983 to a British mother?
You complete form UKM. There is an application fee of £80 for citizenship ceremony. You send your application to Liverpool for processing, which currently has a waiting period of around 4 months. You will have to pass a background check to see if you are of good character, meaning you have no unspent criminal convictions or civil infractions. When you are approved to be registered as British citizen, you will have to attend a citizenship ceremony (which will take place at a British consulate in US) and you will become a British citizen by descent. You can then apply for your British passport through their embassy in Washington DC.
How to pay your fees in a link to Citizenship
Applying for British citizenship doesn't affect your US citizenship, as US accepts dual citizenship.


----------



## Rndebidee (Jan 8, 2012)

NY Joe said:


> Hello from New York. I am a US citizen born of post war immigrants from the UK. I am exploring the idea of dual US/UK citizenship based on decendancy. I have worn out my keyboard chasing my tail on the UK border agency website. I just want some simple and clear answers, but a website designed to save money while being all things to all people can only be very confusing. Phone contact is just a series of recordings designed to further confuse. As far as I can tell, I am entitled to register as a British Citizen based on decendancy and being born before 1983. This seems to include the Right of Abode. However, it also seems that I must obtain a right of abode certificate before applying for citizenship, although this is not consistently clear. The fees involved for either application are outragous. Is there anyone with the same background who can shed some light on this process? Thanks in advance. J


Hi NYJo,
I live in Vermont and just went through acquiring my UK Citizenship. Joppa was a tremendous help in this process. I printed all the documents from the link Joppa provided you. I had to summit all my documents to Washington (I did this the beginning of February this year) and then they forwarded everything (except my mother and my passport and birth certificates which they sent back to me) to Liverpool. It took exactly 4 months. I got an email in June from the British Consulate in Boston congratulating me and wanting me to set up a date and time for my swearing in ceremony. Once this is done they will give you all the documents that are needed for you to apply for your British passport. I had to take with me a money order for $135.00 or $155.00 (sorry I can't recall the exact amount right now). Good luck in your quest and if I can be of any assistance to you in this process dont hesitate to ask.


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

You no longer send application to the embassy in DC, but you send everything to Liverpool, as per embassy site quoted above. Make sure you use insured courier service like DHL and Fedex.


----------



## NY Joe (Aug 18, 2012)

*wow*

Hey...you folks are great. It sounds like I can stop guessing and start filling in forms. I have already downloded the UKM form but the Right of Abode thing was confusing so that held me up. Thanks so much for clearing it up. Now, some smaller details...do they require my mother's birth certificate or just her expired passport?? Four months is a long time to take someone's passport away from them and I use mine alot for travel in Canada as I am near the border. Do they accept a certified photocopy or do I need to request an earlier return with yet another form?

I will be sure to keep you both abreast of my progress. I am very happy about this.

rndebidee? I'm in Syracuse, NY now but I went to school in Rutland in the mid '70s. Are you near there?


----------



## Rndebidee (Jan 8, 2012)

Good Morning,

I am about 10 minute drive from Dartmouth University, so I am about an hour or so East of Rutland. I have worked as a travel nurse at Rutland Hospital, so I am familiar with that area. 

Now that they changed where you send your documents I am not sure how long they will keep the passports and birth certificates. When I sent in my application and supporting documents by priority mail (which I do NOT recommend as the post office did not track it like they said nor did it get there any earlier then 1st class mail would have, in fact they had to do a search for my package, Pay the cost of UPS,DHL or Fed Ex), I received our birth certificates and passports back approximately 3 weeks after they were received in Washington along with a letter stating the approximate time it would take before a decision would be made. 

As for the documents I had to request an APOSTILLE of my original birth certificate as the only one I had was a microfilmed copy. When its not the original document I believe you have to have the Apostille (Even if you don't, I didn't want to take any chance of my application being rejected so I requested this from the State where I was born). I also sent my mothers original birth certificate and her expired passport (the only one she had) along with my original US passport. Obvious you will make copies for your files to keep with you at home and copies to send with your originals to Liverpool. I am sure once Liverpool verifies your passports and birth certificates they will send them back to you ASAP. I can't see them holding onto them as long as 4 months. If what you need your passport for is to travel between the US and Canada you could always apply for the passport ID card. 

Oh and by the way, the actual amount of my money order for my swearing in ceremony was $140.00. So worth the money! 

Keep us posted on your process and since you now have to send everything direct to Liverpool it would be nice if you could post the timeline from the time you send your documents, when they receive them, when you received your originals back and when you receive notification of their decision. I am sure this would be most helpful for others that may want to apply for citizenship as well. 

Cheers!


----------



## NY Joe (Aug 18, 2012)

I see...well...I have my mother's last passport and my original birth certificate in addition to my current passport. So if they don't need to have my mother's original birth certificate I will be ok. I ordered a certified copy from the Home Office in the UK anyway just to have it. I will be sure to keep posting events as they occur throughout this process. 

Have you researched the benefits of registration yet? I know the lines at the UK airports will be shorter, but I am wondering about other pros or cons as I go through this process.

Thanks again.



Rndebidee said:


> Good Morning,
> 
> I am about 10 minute drive from Dartmouth University, so I am about an hour or so East of Rutland. I have worked as a travel nurse at Rutland Hospital, so I am familiar with that area.
> 
> ...


----------



## NY Joe (Aug 18, 2012)

Just looked it up on Joppa's handy dandy Border Agency link...after I receive my mother's certified copy of her birth certificate it looks like I'll be sending it right back to them in my my application packet!!




NY Joe said:


> I see...well...I have my mother's last passport and my original birth certificate in addition to my current passport. So if they don't need to have my mother's original birth certificate I will be ok. I ordered a certified copy from the Home Office in the UK anyway just to have it. I will be sure to keep posting events as they occur throughout this process.
> 
> Have you researched the benefits of registration yet? I know the lines at the UK airports will be shorter, but I am wondering about other pros or cons as I go through this process.
> 
> Thanks again.


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

NY Joe said:


> I see...well...I have my mother's last passport and my original birth certificate in addition to my current passport. So if they don't need to have my mother's original birth certificate I will be ok. I ordered a certified copy from the Home Office in the UK anyway just to have it. I will be sure to keep posting events as they occur throughout this process.
> 
> Have you researched the benefits of registration yet? I know the lines at the UK airports will be shorter, but I am wondering about other pros or cons as I go through this process.


Well, with British passport, you have complete freedom to live, work, study or retire in UK and just about every country in Europe (EU citizenship). You are no longer subject to cumbersome Schengen's 90-in-180 days restriction. 
There are no cons as far as I can see. You will still have to file your tax return to Internal Revenue each year as a US citizen. Just remember to use your US passport to leave and enter US (which is a US requirement).


----------



## NY Joe (Aug 18, 2012)

Great..as soon as my mother's certified birth certificate arrives from the GRO office I will be sending my completed UKM, my passport, my mother's expired passport, and both of our birth certificates to Liverpool along with fees and a written request for the expedient return of my passport and other documentations. 

You are a great help.


----------



## NY Joe (Aug 18, 2012)

*UKM question*

Joppa et al....I am filling in the KMU form and have a couple of questions about the good character requirements: First, they seem to want the address of my tax office...which is here in the US. They seem to want to know if I have fulfilled my tax obligations in the UK which, of course, I have not. They want a copy of my most recent Self Assessment Statement of Account which sounds something like my last year's income tax statement. Secondly, they want me to share with them any convictions including minor driving offences, of which I have had one in the past year and a few more over my lifetime. Do you have any advice on these points?? Do they typically reach across the ocean to check these things or do they refer only to UK records and events??

Thanks


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

NY Joe said:


> Joppa et al....I am filling in the KMU form and have a couple of questions about the good character requirements: First, they seem to want the address of my tax office...which is here in the US. They seem to want to know if I have fulfilled my tax obligations in the UK which, of course, I have not. They want a copy of my most recent Self Assessment Statement of Account which sounds something like my last year's income tax statement. Secondly, they want me to share with them any convictions including minor driving offences, of which I have had one in the past year and a few more over my lifetime. Do you have any advice on these points?? Do they typically reach across the ocean to check these things or do they refer only to UK records and events??


'Good character' is an important part of your application process, and you must answer as fully as you can. The questions are skewed towards UK situation, as most citizenship applicants are in UK. Just try to answer as well as you can, supplying US equivalents, such as IRS tax statement, and your full driving and other convictions. You don't have to declare any that would be considered 'spent' if the offences had been committed in UK. All fines become spent after 5 years, so disclose all traffic violations within 5 years resulting in a fine, including speeding. If you were jailed, however briefly, it's a minimum of 7 years up to 6-month jail, 10 years for up to 2.5 years, and it never becomes spent if jailed for longer than 2.5 years. The imprisonment refers to the initial sentence handed down by the court, and not the actual period spent in jail, as you may have been paroled before serving the full sentence. 
While they don't normally check US records, for serious matters they reserve the right to do so, to which you have consented, and any falsification or non-disclosure can disqualify you from citizenship.


----------



## NY Joe (Aug 18, 2012)

ic...ok, thanks again. I'll need to check my records to make sure I'm not leaving anything out. There might be one other speeding ticket within the five year period. I hope they wouldn't disqualify me based on this!! I live in upstate NY..where traffic fines pay lawyer fees and police salaries. Maintaining a clean driving record requires never getting in your car.


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Forgetting to include one speeding fine won't disqualify you, and thery are most unlikely to check up on minor matters, but you should aim to be as complete as possible. This is also a sign of good faith and honest character, which will go down well.


----------



## punktlich02 (Aug 21, 2012)

Joppa said:


> You can register as British citizen by virtue of being born of a British mother outside of UK before 1983.
> ...
> You complete form UKM. There is an application fee of £80 for citizenship ceremony. You send your application to Liverpool for processing, which currently has a waiting period of around 4 months. You will have to pass a background check to see if you are of good character, meaning you have no unspent criminal convictions or civil infractions. When you are approved to be registered as British citizen, you will have to attend a citizenship ceremony (which will take place at a British consulate in US) and you will become a British citizen by descent. You can then apply for your British passport through their embassy in Washington DC.
> How to pay your fees in a link to ...
> Applying for British citizenship doesn't affect your US citizenship, as US accepts dual citizenship.


Joppa,

If the OP was born abroad of two parents who themselves were born in and are citizens of the UK ("other than by descent"), doesn't that make the OP a citizen of the UK at birth by descent (without regard to any "registration") regardless of any other fact? And then all he needs to do is to apply for a UK passport?

Such is the information we were given in relation to my granddaughter born last year in France, our daughter having been born in the UK. (In her case the parental sex discrimination having been abolished.) As it happens she obtained and travels on a French passport but we were told that applying for a consular birth certificate was unnecessary--indeed a waste of money. And indeed for all domestic UK matters (such as taxes, benefits, allowances), presenting the girl's French birth certificate along with her mother's English one has sufficed.

My daughter is working in the USA this year and is about to have another child; my thinking was that in that case a consular birth certificate might be more useful. I gather there won't be a French b/c but rather a mention in the "cahier de famille".

Not to be a pedant, the US doesn't "accept" dual citizenship; rather it ignores it and the US Supreme Court has said that the fact of acquiring a foreign nationality could not any longer be used to expatriate an American. Before the Cable Act of 1922 things were even worse: in Mackenzie v. Hare the US Supreme Court approved the expatriation (forfeiture of US nationality) of a woman upon her marriage to a British subject even though she had never, ever, been outside the USA. The book (and PhD dissertation) "A Nationality of Her Own" discusses this issue.

(Given a situation where citizens and some former citizens and all Green Card holders have to pay federal income tax US nationality isn't always a blessing. (The IRS ruled that those previously expatriated whose nationality was restored by the Court don't have to pay either, so long as they didn't thereafter "exercise an attribute" of US citizenship.))


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

punktlich02 said:


> Joppa,
> 
> If the OP was born abroad of two parents who themselves were born in and are citizens of the UK ("other than by descent"), doesn't that make the OP a citizen of the UK at birth by descent (without regard to any "registration") regardless of any other fact? And then all he needs to do is to apply for a UK passport?


This is what the OP said in an earlier post:

_'...my mother was born in London in 1923. My father was US soldier and they were married in London in 1945. She arrived in the usa 1947. I was born in the USA in 1950. She became a US Citizen in 1953. I think the UK continued to classify her as a British subject despite her US Citizenship.'_

So his father was a US citizen (a GI), and his mother a British war bride. So he can register under Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Act 2009, which extended citizenship by descent to those born overseas of British mother prior to 7th February 1961, which was manifestly unjust and discriminatory.



> Such is the information we were given in relation to my granddaughter born last year in France, our daughter having been born in the UK. (In her case the parental sex discrimination having been abolished.) As it happens she obtained and travels on a French passport but we were told that applying for a consular birth certificate was unnecessary--indeed a waste of money. And indeed for all domestic UK matters (such as taxes, benefits, allowances), presenting the girl's French birth certificate along with her mother's English one has sufficed.
> 
> My daughter is working in the USA this year and is about to have another child; my thinking was that in that case a consular birth certificate might be more useful. I gather there won't be a French b/c but rather a mention in the "cahier de famille".


Since then the law has changed, and from 1st July 2006, anyone born of British father or mother (whether married or not) who is British otherwise than by descent, anywhere in the world, is British by descent from birth, and no registration or other formaility is required to claim it, like your granddaughter's example, as her mother (your daughter) is British otherwise than by descent.



> Not to be a pedant, the US doesn't "accept" dual citizenship; rather it ignores it and the US Supreme Court has said that the fact of acquiring a foreign nationality could not any longer be used to expatriate an American. Before the Cable Act of 1922 things were even worse: in Mackenzie v. Hare the US Supreme Court approved the expatriation (forfeiture of US nationality) of a woman upon her marriage to a British subject even though she had never, ever, been outside the USA. The book (and PhD dissertation) "A Nationality of Her Own" discusses this issue.
> 
> (Given a situation where citizens and some former citizens and all Green Card holders have to pay federal income tax US nationality isn't always a blessing. (The IRS ruled that those previously expatriated whose nationality was restored by the Court don't have to pay either, so long as they didn't thereafter "exercise an attribute" of US citizenship.))


The way I understand it, which may not be strictly legally accurate but will do for most practical purposes, is that the US turns a blind eye on dual- or multi-nationals, but once they are on US soil, they only recognise their US citizenship with all its rights and responsibilities. So you must use US passport to enter and leave US. UK, in contrast, doesn't insist on it and you can use any passport to enter and leave UK, though they prefer you use UK one, as they aren't supposed to give a leave to enter or remain to British citizens who have the right of abode. But you aren't committing any offence showing a non-UK passport at the border.


----------



## punktlich02 (Aug 21, 2012)

Joppa said:


> This is what the OP said in an earlier post:
> 
> _'...my mother was born in London in 1923. My father was US soldier and they were married in London in 1945. She arrived in the usa 1947. I was born in the USA in 1950. She became a US Citizen in 1953. I think the UK continued to classify her as a British subject despite her US Citizenship.'_
> 
> So his father was a US citizen (a GI), and his mother a British war bride. So he can register under Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Act 2009, which extended citizenship by descent to those born overseas of British mother prior to 7th February 1961, which was manifestly unjust and discriminatory.


Somehow I missed that and thought the father was a British subject or citizen at the time. I see that this thread covered two pages and that this was not the case. I know that there are workarounds, and that there are hefty fees because the UK is trying to finance its diplomatic posts with "user fees". They aren't alone in that.



> Since then the law has changed, and from 1st July 2006, anyone born of British father or mother (whether married or not) who is British otherwise than by descent, anywhere in the world, is British by descent from birth, and no registration or other formality is required to claim it, like your granddaughter's example, as her mother (your daughter) is British otherwise than by descent.
> 
> The way I understand it, which may not be strictly legally accurate but will do for most practical purposes, is that the US turns a blind eye on dual- or multi-nationals, but once they are on US soil, they only recognise their US citizenship with all its rights and responsibilities. So you must use US passport to enter and leave US. UK, in contrast, doesn't insist on it and you can use any passport to enter and leave UK, though they prefer you use UK one, as they aren't supposed to give a leave to enter or remain to British citizens who have the right of abode. But you aren't committing any offence showing a non-UK passport at the border.


Yes, that's why I apologised for my pedantry. The US has a number of unique attitudes towards nationality and that's partly because like the UK before, say, 1949 it considers its citizenship to be a matter of "allegiance" based originally on English common law and not [Christian, Civil-law, (gasp) French] "nationality". (The nativist attack on the 14th Amendment fails to recognise this.) Have a look at F.T. Piggott's "The 'Ligeance of the King'" which you can find online. He wasn't the greatest lawyer or legal thinker, not a Clive Parry for example, but he got his history right. But hey, I'm just an academic so what do I know.

The UK will not allow a UK national to serve as a foreign diplomat in the USA. A US spouse who accompanies her foreign diplomat husband is denied diplomatic immunity. The UK often has American (and other) diplomats stationed in London who have British or Irish parentage (and who tend to do a lot of genealogical research and then get shocked by the bad education and bad teeth that their collateral relatives still here have).

There are many anomalies of US nationality, some of which have to do with taxes (persons born or naturalised in Puerto Rico and to a lesser extent residents of other remote territories) or colonial history ("noncitizen nationals" from American Samoa and Swain Island (the latter: population 35)). Interestingly, one can be liable for US taxes even though one hasn't the right to live in, or perhaps visit, the USA: usually because of failure to file Form 8854 after renunciation of citizenship. Or because one remained abroad too long, lost rights as resident alien (green card), but still is supposed to file tax returns and pay tax on worldwide income. 

Filipinos before 1934 or (for other purposes) 1946 and Native Americans prior to 1924 were "protégés" and not citizens. Andy Filipino resident in the Continental USA in 1934 became a resident alien. If I remember correctly.

The US approach to nationality can also be perverse, if politically expedient: permitting an accused terrorist to plead to a lesser offence and depart the country on condition of waiving (vice "renouncing") UK nationality. Does anyone remember Tomoya Kawakita? Or for that matter William Joyce? 

I understand (and I know this from the Zimbabwe expulsions) that the UK will put a rather nondescript sticker in a foreign passport to show that the bearer has the right of abode, and implicitly British citizenship, without alerting the foreign country authorities. I also know (as you said) that dual US-UK nationals can come and go from Britain on their US passports. I also know (because I asked once, out of curiosity) that US consular officers are welcome to visit dual nationals in UK prisons. Try that in Turkey or Iran.

Except for the Good Friday Agreement provision that I cited in another thread (any person native to N.I. can present him-/her-self as British, as Irish or both) and the fact that an Irish citizen is never an Alien in Britain (Ireland Act 1949) you are 100% right.

Sorry if I intruded, but I thought I would contribute at least for a few days and perhaps bring myself up to date on things that happened since I've been away. Like the McCarthy and Zambrano cases discussed elsewhere.


----------



## NY Joe (Aug 18, 2012)

(Gulp!)
I just want to be able to pop over easily for pint and a good fry-up on the odd long weekend.


----------



## punktlich02 (Aug 21, 2012)

Joppa said:


> Well, with British passport, you have complete freedom to live, work, study or retire in UK and just about every country in Europe (EU citizenship). You are no longer subject to cumbersome Schengen's 90-in-180 days restriction.
> There are no cons as far as I can see. You will still have to file your tax return to Internal Revenue each year as a US citizen. Just remember to use your US passport to leave and enter US (which is a US requirement).


Do the math and consider whether it makes financial sense to pay voluntary Class III National Insurance contributions to get a State Pension at age 67 (or whenever). It used to be a no-brainer, but now some actuaries have reservations. You need ten years' credits to get anything; 30 (being revised from 33) to get a maximum fixed State Pension.

There's a totalization agreement with the USA but voluntary contributions are outside this.


----------



## NY Joe (Aug 18, 2012)

*Citizenship papers ready to go!!*

Hello Joppa and all...I finally received my mothers birth certificate and now have all my documents and completed UKM and fees ready to go. I have one last concern. I will require the use of my passport before the end of the 4 month citizensip registration process. I read in the UKM guide that I am to send an self addressed envelope if I want to have my documents returned, but it does not say anything specific about expediting the return of of my US Passport as early as is possible. Does anyone have any information that might help me over this final hurtle??


----------



## NY Joe (Aug 18, 2012)

Joppa said:


> Well, with British passport, you have complete freedom to live, work, study or retire in UK and just about every country in Europe (EU citizenship). You are no longer subject to cumbersome Schengen's 90-in-180 days restriction.
> There are no cons as far as I can see. You will still have to file your tax return to Internal Revenue each year as a US citizen. Just remember to use your US passport to leave and enter US (which is a US requirement).


Hello Joppa and all...I finally received my mothers birth certificate and now have all my documents and completed UKM and fees ready to go. I have one last concern. I will require the use of my passport before the end of the 4 month citizensip registration process. I read in the UKM guide that I am to send an self addressed envelope if I want to have my documents returned, but it does not say anything specific about expediting the return of of my US Passport as early as is possible. Does anyone have any information that might help me over this final hurtle??


----------



## Rndebidee (Jan 8, 2012)

NY Joe said:


> Hello Joppa and all...I finally received my mothers birth certificate and now have all my documents and completed UKM and fees ready to go. I have one last concern. I will require the use of my passport before the end of the 4 month citizensip registration process. I read in the UKM guide that I am to send an self addressed envelope if I want to have my documents returned, but it does not say anything specific about expediting the return of of my US Passport as early as is possible. Does anyone have any information that might help me over this final hurtle??


Hi Joe, 
Glad you got all the documents collected that you will need to process your application for citizenship. As for how long they will have your US passport, I'm simply can't tell you since I filed mine before the new changes. As I said before they only had my US passport for 3 weeks before I got them delivered back to me. I'm sure they won't hold onto them for the full 4 months. Good luck and keep us posted. I will be looking out for Joppa to respond to your post as he does seem to have a vast wealth of knowledge when it comes to immigration.


----------



## NY Joe (Aug 18, 2012)

Hi rndebidee!

Good to hear from you. The expedient return of the passport has become more of a concern. My wife, who is just finishing chemo needs me to accompany her to her homeland, the Philippines, for Christmas. So I will definitely need to have the passport by mid nov at the latest. I was going to send a self addresses envelope and letter of request along with my documents but was hoping to hear from anyone who might have a better idea. Thanks for your concern and stay tuned.

Joe


----------



## nyclon (Apr 3, 2011)

Why don't you wait to apply until after you return from the Philippines?


----------



## NY Joe (Aug 18, 2012)

Hi nyclon
I am considering your suugestion .....just hoping there mIght be a way of expediting a reliable return of my US passport. Ive been waiting a lOng time to get this process started and I have already dated all my forms thinking this would not be held up any longer. I'm actually going to be down in manhatten on mOnday and the British consulate is just around the corner from where my wife is receiving her chemo treatment....so I'll stop in there and get something definitive on this question. Hopefully it won't involve hours of queuing and form filling to ask a simple question!!!
Stay tuned and thanks for your interest.

Joe


----------



## nyclon (Apr 3, 2011)

NY Joe said:


> Hi nyclon
> I am considering your suugestion .....just hoping there mIght be a way of expediting a reliable return of my US passport. Ive been waiting a lOng time to get this process started and I have already dated all my forms thinking this would not be held up any longer. I'm actually going to be down in manhatten on mOnday and the British consulate is just around the corner from where my wife is receiving her chemo treatment....so I'll stop in there and get something definitive on this question. Hopefully it won't involve hours of queuing and form filling to ask a simple question!!!
> Stay tuned and thanks for your interest.
> 
> Joe


The British Consulate doesn't accept walk-ins. You must have an appointment. Additionally, since consulates are no longer have any involvement in the processing of passports, they are unable to answer any passport related questions.


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

One thing I'm not clear about is whether your original US passport is absolutely necessary or you can send in a certified copy. Since the change in procedure in July, where everythinmg has to be mailed to Liverpool, there is obvious concern about sending a valuable document like one's passport internationally (I certainly won't do it). In some countries, it's illegal to be without your passport if you require a visa to stay in the country. The UKBA site is unclear on it. While in some places you it says you can make a citizenship application with a certified copy, in others it says originals are required.
I suggest you phone or email the citizenship helpline in UK on http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/aboutus/contact/contactspage/nationality/


----------



## NY Joe (Aug 18, 2012)

Nyclon...you may well be correct. I was there 3 weeks ago. I asked the lobby receptionist if I could ask someone a few questions about my application. I was given a queue to stand in which was so long it was impractical to wait. So....since I'm going down anyway I'll give it another go and get there early. If because of procedure or lack of expertise it doesn't work out, nothing lost and your suggestion to wait will inform my next move. Will keep you posted. Where's Joppa when you need him?!?! (just joking)

Thanks

Joe


----------



## NY Joe (Aug 18, 2012)

Joppa said:


> One thing I'm not clear about is whether your original US passport is absolutely necessary or you can send in a certified copy. Since the change in procedure in July, where everythinmg has to be mailed to Liverpool, there is obvious concern about sending a valuable document like one's passport internationally (I certainly won't do it). In some countries, it's illegal to be without your passport if you require a visa to stay in the country. The UKBA site is unclear on it. While in some places you it says you can make a citizenship application with a certified copy, in others it says originals are required.
> I suggest you phone or email the citizenship helpline in UK on UK Border Agency | Citizenship and nationality enquiries


Joppa...speak of the devil.... Good to hear from you. Having tried that helpline many times and getting redirected to the website many times I don't too much hope a on that score. But I will continue to try all suggestions and keep you posted on th results.

Thanks

Joe


----------



## nyclon (Apr 3, 2011)

NY Joe said:


> Nyclon...you may well be correct. I was there 3 weeks ago. I asked the lobby receptionist if I could ask someone a few questions about my application. I was given a queue to stand in which was so long it was impractical to wait. So....since I'm going down anyway I'll give it another go and get there early. If because of procedure or lack of expertise it doesn't work out, nothing lost and your suggestion to wait will inform my next move. Will keep you posted. Where's Joppa when you need him?!?! (just joking)
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Joe


From the British Embassy website regarding applying for a UK passport in the US:

"Your local consulate cannot answer questions on your passport application."

"Please note they will not be able to answer general passport questions or give information on passport applications in progress (as they are no longer involved in this process). "

How to apply from USA

And also:

"Consular hours: 

* Local Time 
Mon/Tues/Thurs and Fri: 0900-1200 (GMT 1400-1700) 

Appointments are required - please use our appointment request form.`'


----------



## Rndebidee (Jan 8, 2012)

NY Joe said:


> Nyclon...you may well be correct. I was there 3 weeks ago. I asked the lobby receptionist if I could ask someone a few questions about my application. I was given a queue to stand in which was so long it was impractical to wait. So....since I'm going down anyway I'll give it another go and get there early. If because of procedure or lack of expertise it doesn't work out, nothing lost and your suggestion to wait will inform my next move. Will keep you posted. Where's Joppa when you need him?!?! (just joking)
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Joe


Hi again NYJoe,
If you are going to try again at the NY Consulate, I would suggest bringing your passport and a copy of the passport page with your photo on it, and if you're lucky enough to actually talk with someone maybe they will certify the copy. When I went to my swearing in ceremony, they took my US passport and made a copy of it and stamped it with "British Consulate Genera Bostonl," and the date and wrote in "original seen". They gave me that copy and the copy of my certificate of registration as British, which they also stamped with the same wording and gave me those to send in with my application for my British passport. They told me that was all I needed to apply for my passport, so I would think if they could certify a copy of your passport for you that hopefully would be sufficient for your application for citizenship. At least it's worth a try. Worst comes to worst you can always wait to apply until after your trip with your wife, you've waited a long time already, so really whats a few more months. Good luck to you and also to your wife as she goes through her chemo treatments.
Deb


----------



## NY Joe (Aug 18, 2012)

Hmmmm...thanks Deb and Nyclon. Will keep you posted.

Joe


----------



## NY Joe (Aug 18, 2012)

Hi all...back from NY and the uk consulate. They were less helpful than I had hoped yet a little nicer than I anticipated. They verified what I already knew about sending all documents directly to Liverpool, but did not know if a certified copy of my US passport would be acceptable. I was provided with the same dead end phone number I've been using. So .... It looks like my document submission will have to wait until I return from the Philippines in January. I'll post again when the process is complete and my British heritage is restored. Thanks one and all for your interest and expertise.

NY Joe


----------



## FrankCollier (May 12, 2014)

*Form UKM*

Hi NY Joe; did you succeed in your quest?

I have just joined the forum and read the conversation.

I have two questions:

1 Is the fee just the charge of ₤80 or is there more to come?

2 Did you have to send in your passport or did they accept a certified copy?


----------



## Hertsfem (Jun 19, 2013)

FrankCollier said:


> Hi NY Joe; did you succeed in your quest?
> 
> I have just joined the forum and read the conversation.
> 
> ...


This thread is two years old..

I have not read it all but imagine you are talking about citizenship using form UKM?

If so then I have a friend who recently did this..


----------



## FrankCollier (May 12, 2014)

The post was all I could find about Form UKM and the relevant fee.

Any information on the fees payable upon submission of Form UKM would be much appreciated.


----------



## Hertsfem (Jun 19, 2013)

FrankCollier said:


> The post was all I could find about Form UKM and the relevant fee.
> 
> Any information on the fees payable upon submission of Form UKM would be much appreciated.


It was £80 when he did it a few months ago but it may have gone up a fraction with all the other visa fees. Not much though. His citizenship took about 3 months. I don't know if he sent his passport as it had expired anyhow.

We applied for citizenship for my grandson recently using form MN1 3(2) and it took a month, however it took 2 months for the mail to get it to Zimbabwe after that :lalala:


----------



## FrankCollier (May 12, 2014)

Thanks very much for that; I need my SA passport to get to NZ and back in July, so perhaps I should wait until I return; thanks very much for the information.


----------

