# The latest on Residencia ??



## Allie-P (Feb 11, 2013)

Several long term Spanish residents, on here, have recently posted that : Residencia requirements change periodically, since the recent rulings..... *and* vary from Province to Province.

Having enquired at Fuengirola police station, last week - *still* awaiting our revised S1! - I was advised that the current criteria is, a dual monthly income of €1000 *plus* savings of €5000.....photos are no longer required.

I will keep you posted


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

Its true they do change from province to province and from day to day sometimes. Around here, Nerja, word is that you need €1200 a month and €6000 savings plus healthcare sorted...


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

AND We have been advised 1000 per month or money in the bank.


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## Allie-P (Feb 11, 2013)

cambio said:


> AND We have been advised 1000 per month or money in the bank.





We have been advised that we require income *and* savings !

My revised SI has arrived - we are making an appointment, tomorrow. 

I downloaded & translated the EX18, prior to our arrival in Spain - but there is a British OAP gentleman, located at Fuengirola police station - who, for several hours per day, is available to help new applicants.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Allie-P said:


> We have been advised that we require income *and* savings !
> 
> My revised SI has arrived - we are making an appointment, tomorrow.
> 
> I downloaded & translated the EX18, prior to our arrival in Spain - but there is a British OAP gentleman, located at Fuengirola police station - who, for several hours per day, is available to help new applicants.


it is very confusing we will have early retirement pension and then funds in the bank, the income is not 1000 but the top up from our own funding will be enough,. and sufficient for over 10 years by which time UK Pension will have kicked in, This we have been told is ok. I think to be certain i will employ someone to do the official stuff:juggle:


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## Allie-P (Feb 11, 2013)

cambio said:


> it is very confusing we will have early retirement pension and then funds in the bank, the income is not 1000 but the top up from our own funding will be enough,. and sufficient for over 10 years by which time UK Pension will have kicked in, This we have been told is ok. I think to be certain i will employ someone to do the official stuff:juggle:





Yes, it's very confusing.

We will try & do it ourselves......I will post the outcome - which will hopefully help others in the same position...


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## Alpujarran (Feb 22, 2013)

*Resources*

According to the EU:
eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2004:158:0077:0123:enDF

DIRECTIVE 2004/38/EC
Article 8
Administrative formalities for Union citizens

4. Member States may not lay down a fixed amount which they regard as "sufficient resources",
but they must take into account the personal situation of the person concerned. In all cases this
amount shall not be higher than the threshold below which nationals of the host Member State
become eligible for social assistance, or, where this criterion is not applicable, higher than the
minimum social security pension paid by the host Member State.

Here it is [in Spanish
eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2004:158:0077:0123:esDF

I'm not allowed to post URLs yet - too much of a newbie


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Alpujarran said:


> According to the EU:
> eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2004:158:0077:0123:enDF
> 
> DIRECTIVE 2004/38/EC
> ...


I do believe we have a link to that site in our _*FAQs & useful inf**o*_ thread 


so much is left up to local interpretation though 

when this was initially discussed, when we first heard that the changes were coming (as long ago as this time last year I think), that particular paragraph was oft-quoted & it's what we based our guestimates on 

we weren't far wrong


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## Allie-P (Feb 11, 2013)

We have our appointment tomorrow - I have strived to ensure that all relevant tpaperwork is in place.... .........So, everything crossed that the next stop is the Padron ..


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## Lonely (Aug 11, 2012)

Please someone tell me why Residencia would be useful...cheers.


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## expatmat (Feb 12, 2013)

If you live/stay for longer than 3 months, it's a legal requirement


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

Allie-P said:


> We have our appointment tomorrow - I have strived to ensure that all relevant tpaperwork is in place.... .........So, everything crossed that the next stop is the Padron ..


Ah! but do you have the correct stapler ?, and paper clips (in triplicate)


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## Lonely (Aug 11, 2012)

expatmat said:


> If you live/stay for longer than 3 months, it's a legal requirement


Since when a tourist from another EU country cannot stay in Spain for more than 90 days?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Lonely said:


> Since when a tourist from another EU country cannot stay in Spain for more than 90 days?



If you are genuinely a tourist and can prove you live in another country and are only visiting then its not a problem, 90 days is the "bench mark" time allowed! But if you wish to become a resident of Spain and take advantage of their healthcare, employment, make large purchases (apart from a holiday home) etc, then you will need an NIE number and be a resident. To do that you need to prove income and healthcare provision - other than a EHIC card

Jo xxx


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

jojo said:


> If you are genuinely a tourist and can prove you live in another country and are only visiting then its not a problem, 90 days is the "bench mark" time allowed! But if you wish to become a resident of Spain and take advantage of their healthcare, employment, make large purchases (apart from a holiday home) etc, then you will need an NIE number and be a resident. To do that you need to prove income and healthcare provision - other than a EHIC card
> 
> Jo xxx


its a bit odd though is it not that.. we can buy a house and move, we can have private health cover, and not need schools etc. IF we do not meet the varied requirements we do not get residency but we can not be asked to leave as EU citizens we have the right to stay/ I am not bothered because we have a pension and enough dosh in bank. but ut all makes very little sense:juggle:


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## Lonely (Aug 11, 2012)

jojo said:


> If you are genuinely a tourist and can prove you live in another country and are only visiting then its not a problem, 90 days is the "bench mark" time allowed! But if you wish to become a resident of Spain and take advantage of their healthcare, employment, make large purchases (apart from a holiday home) etc, then you will need an NIE number and be a resident. To do that you need to prove income and healthcare provision - other than a EHIC card
> 
> Jo xxx


I see, thank you.

Can you elaborate more about healthcare provision will I need if I move to Spain?

Thanks


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## expatmat (Feb 12, 2013)

Lonely said:


> I see, thank you.
> 
> Can you elaborate more about healthcare provision will I need if I move to Spain?
> 
> Thanks


As a condition of residencia you need to prove you have adequate health care cover. You do this one of 2 ways.

1) If you are employed or self-employed you will make social security and be covered by the national health care scheme.

2) If you choose not to (or cannot) have national health cover you must have private health insurance cover. 

NOTE: If you are here as a tourist and you are EU resident (not citizen) you will be covered (up to 1 year??) by the EHIC card, however you cannot use this for residencia.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

expatmat said:


> As a condition of residencia you need to prove you have adequate health care cover. You do this one of 2 ways.
> 
> 1) If you are employed or self-employed you will make social security and be covered by the national health care scheme.
> 
> ...


..... and the EHIC card is for emergencies only - ie it only covers initial injuries/health problems, not follow up treatment or ongoing health issues

Jo xxx


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Lonely said:


> Please someone tell me why Residencia would be useful...cheers.


Its not about "useful" its a legal requirement that if you live somewhere (everywhere, certainly in europe), then you must be a resident and in spain, you should also sign on the padron of the town in which you live! If you wish to rent a property long term, many agents now insist on it. If you want to make any major purchases, such as a car, internet.... you need it, if you dont have an address anywhere else in the world, then you need to be a resident otherwise you'll not really belong anywhere

Jo xxx


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## samthemainman (Aug 15, 2012)

Make sure as well which order you need to do things in. Most regions seem to need the residencia prior to the Padron, in Valencia however the reverse is the case...


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

cambio said:


> its a bit odd though is it not that.. we can buy a house and move, we can have private health cover, and not need schools etc. IF we do not meet the varied requirements we do not get residency but we can not be asked to leave as EU citizens we have the right to stay/ I am not bothered because we have a pension and enough dosh in bank. but ut all makes very little sense:juggle:


Its Spain!!!!! They dont always make sense, but I think they try to adhere to the rules given to them by the EU and sometimes, it doesnt come across as sensible??? I dont think they throw EU citizens out, but they dont treat them as they would their nationals - ie healthcare, social benefits etc

Jo xxx


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jojo said:


> Its Spain!!!!! They dont always make sense, but I think they try to adhere to the rules given to them by the EU and sometimes, it doesnt come across as sensible??? I dont think they throw EU citizens out, but they dont treat them as they would their nationals - ie healthcare, social benefits etc
> 
> Jo xxx


yes, they are EU rules, not Spain's

the same rules apply in the UK too - the main difference is that the UK doesn't _insist_ that you register, so all EU citizens/legal residents automatically get the same 'rights' as British citizens

here, you can't get them unless you register.................. & now, you can't register unless you can support yourself

again, that's EU rules, which the UK chooses not to impose



I think Spain has it right


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> yes, they are EU rules, not Spain's
> 
> the same rules apply in the UK too - the main difference is that the UK doesn't _insist_ that you register, so all EU citizens/legal residents automatically get the same 'rights' as British citizens
> 
> ...


Absolutely!
What Spain does and doesn't do is very much bound up with the EU, but it must not be forgotten that there are many rules that countries choose or do not choose to impose and it's here that the differences between each country come from. If Spain does it, what ever "it" is, it's because it *can*.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Lonely said:


> Since when a tourist from another EU country cannot stay in Spain for more than 90 days?


Since the beginning of the EU I reckon.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Since the beginning of the EU I reckon.


you're probably right

it's not that you can't stay though - just that after 90 days you're considered 'resident' & should register as such


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> you're probably right
> 
> it's not that you can't stay though - just that after 90 days you're considered 'resident' & should register as such


yup!


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## mike kelly (Aug 12, 2009)

anyone heard of cases of EU citizens who have been refused registration?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

mike kelly said:


> anyone heard of cases of EU citizens who have been refused registration?


I do know someone who hasn't registered, has apparently been living 'below the radar' for years - has had their medical card cancelled - (it was issued years ago when Valencia gave them out like sweeties)

to get it reactivated/reinstated they need to be registered as resident....... 

can now only register as resident if can prove income/healthcare

to prove income will have 'go legal' & register as autónomo............


watch this space...............


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> you're probably right
> 
> it's not that you can't stay though - just that after 90 days you're considered 'resident' & should register as such


Yes, sorry, you're right. You can stay if you register as a resident.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mike kelly said:


> anyone heard of cases of EU citizens who have been refused registration?


No, I haven't.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> No, I haven't.


I _have_ heard of people being sent away when they didn't have the required paperwork/proof of income etc., I _suppose_ that counts as being refused registration :confused2:


I have no idea if they then got the paperwork together & returned to register, or just didn't bother because they couldn't _get _the required papers .............


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## Lonely (Aug 11, 2012)

xabiachica said:


> you're probably right
> 
> it's not that you can't stay though - just that after 90 days you're considered 'resident' & should register as such


 are backpackers who travel months and months, considered residents?

I think no one really can enforce it 100%.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Lonely said:


> are backpackers who travel months and months, considered residents?
> 
> I think no one really can enforce it 100%.


strictly speaking , yes they would be considered resident

you're right, it can't be enforced 100%

however, if you are actually _living _here, life can be difficult without that resident certificate

see my post from earlier in this thread http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...n/144690-latest-residencia-3.html#post1080380


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Lonely said:


> are backpackers who travel months and months, considered residents?
> 
> I think no one really can enforce it 100%.


 There are many people I'm sure who are happy to slip below the radar, but unfortunately, altho this may feel free, anti-establishment and easy, when the chips are down and they need help from either the medical or civil services, they *are* under the radar and wont be found or helped. 


Jo xxx


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## Lonely (Aug 11, 2012)

jojo said:


> There are many people I'm sure who are happy to slip below the radar, but unfortunately, altho this may feel free, anti-establishment and easy, when the chips are down and they need help from either the medical or civil services, they *are* under the radar and wont be found or helped.
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


Right, I understand that.

So, do you have a link to where I can check how much would it cost to get health insurance?

Does it need to be local or can be from any other country?

Thanks


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## Allie-P (Feb 11, 2013)

playamonte said:


> Ah! but do you have the correct stapler ?, and paper clips (in triplicate)



Yippee .....we are now residents  .....paperwork was all correct & in order - *but* - they required 2 photocopies each of the S1 & our spanish bank statement. We went away, obtained these....queued up again & received our tarjetas de residencia - which are the size of a bank card.....

Tomorrow, the Mijas Padron......we have double photocopied everything !!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Allie-P said:


> Yippee .....we are now residents  .....paperwork was all correct & in order - *but* - they required 2 photocopies each of the S1 & our spanish bank statement. We went away, obtained these....queued up again & received our tarjetas de residencia - which are the size of a bank card.....
> 
> Tomorrow, the Mijas Padron......we have double photocopied everything !!


there you go - so easy when you have your paperwork in order

they just about _always _want _at least_ 2 photocopies of _everything.............._


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## Allie-P (Feb 11, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> there you go - so easy when you have your paperwork in order
> 
> they just about _always _want _at least_ 2 photocopies of _everything.............._



We have certainly learnt that !! ....It's a different country, we have to abide by their rules.

I say this, as a retired civil servant, who spent my entire working life running after "my clients." 

Several people in our initial queue were turned away, due to lack of correct paperwork...... We left the couple, in the next seat, arguing about the photocopies...

I have now sussed it....correct, researched paperwork & loads of photocopies wins the day.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Allie-P said:


> We have certainly learnt that !! ....It's a different country, we have to abide by their rules.
> 
> I say this, as a retired civil servant, who spent my entire working life running after "my clients."
> 
> ...


It is good to hear of success. Although I think we can show sufficient income through my pension and savings, ( well we know it is sufficient) but because nothing is written down specifically it is the one big fear.. we will arrive, buy house, etc and they will say No residency.. go away!!!!!!!! I suppose if they do we will just have to stay with no residency, its all a bit confusing. Still i suppose that's the joy of Spain!!!!!!!:clap2:


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## Allie-P (Feb 11, 2013)

cambio said:


> It is good to hear of success. Although I think we can show sufficient income through my pension and savings, ( well we know it is sufficient) but because nothing is written down specifically it is the one big fear.. we will arrive, buy house, etc and they will say No residency.. go away!!!!!!!! I suppose if they do we will just have to stay with no residency, its all a bit confusing. Still i suppose that's the joy of Spain!!!!!!!:clap2:



The onus, in Spain, is on us ! We must supply - whatsoever they may require....No mollycoddling here - as in the UK.

Your case is more complicated than ours - we are standard pensioners. You will need to seek advice. 

Padron sorted today....next stage, the INSS ....completely daunted by the queues, today. We will go early on Monday morning !!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Allie-P said:


> The onus, in Spain, is on us ! We must supply - whatsoever they may require....No mollycoddling here - as in the UK.
> 
> Your case is more complicated than ours - we are standard pensioners. You will need to seek advice.
> 
> Padron sorted today....next stage, the INSS ....completely daunted by the queues, today. We will go early on Monday morning !!


as long as cambio can show income going into the bank they'll be fine


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

xabiachica said:


> as long as cambio can show income going into the bank they'll be fine


We can, but because ours is a mixture of pension income and captial income we are going to employ a gestor to advice the best way to present the information.
 i geet a bit OHHHHHHHH every now and then! theres a song there somewhere

its all getting very exciting!!!!!!!

Next destination Extremadura!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

cambio said:


> We can, but because ours is a mixture of pension income and captial income we are going to employ a gestor to advice the best way to present the information.
> i geet a bit OHHHHHHHH every now and then! theres a song there somewhere
> 
> its all getting very exciting!!!!!!!
> ...


the extranjería doesn't care where the money comes from

a friend of mine recently registered (should have done years ago ) - she was worried because she'd been told by them that she needed to show 625€ (something like that) a month going into the account - & and they just transfer odd amounts as & when they need it - more than the 600some-odd when averaged out, to be fair though

they just took their bank statements (& copies of course), which clearly showed regular _ingresos _- that was enough....


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## GUAPACHICA (Jun 30, 2012)

xabiachica said:


> yes, they are EU rules, not Spain's
> 
> the same rules apply in the UK too - the main difference is that the UK doesn't _insist_ that you register, so all EU citizens/legal residents automatically get the same 'rights' as British citizens
> 
> ...


Hi - I've been checking the UK's Border Agency's website pages on '_the rights and_ _responsibilities'_ of EU citizens within the country, to see what the differences with Spain's requirements actually are. I'm not about to highjack this thread - I wanted to know if the Spanish Regional Govts. have the right to require EU citizens, living in Spain, to have savings of a stated amount, (held within a Spanish bank..?) - before being granted residency. I'm still confused on that issue!

UK Border Agency | European nationals

Can anyone please help define '*Unreasonable burden'* as used in the phrase I've highlighted in bold, below? (I haven't yet found an official definition within the website). Thanks.

I hadn't realised that a _'self-sufficient person_' with EU citizenship would require_ 'comprehensive health insurance'_ to stay in the UK - i'd thought that any EU citizen living at a UK address would become eligible for free access to the NHS (I really must stop browsing the free copiy of The Daily Mail, whilst seated in my favourite Surrey pub..!).

BTW - when reading the quotes listed below, please note that I've not included the 'exclusions' for Bulgarian and Rumanian citizens - as these are in process of being changed. 

Saludos,
GC.

'As an EEA or Swiss national, you have the right to live and work in the UK (known as the 'right of residence') if:

you are working here (and have obtained our permission to work if this is required - see below); or
you can support yourself and your family in the UK [*B]without becoming an unreasonable burden on public funds.'*

and -

'Public funds
You do not need to work while you are living in the UK. But if you do not work, you must be able to support yourself and your family in the UK* without becoming an unreasonable burden on public funds'.*


'Healthcare
If you are an EEA national in the UK as a student or as _a self-sufficient person _you must have comprehensive sickness insurance for the duration of your stay in the UK. To find out more, see the Healthcare - comprehensive sickness insurance page.'



[/B]


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

GUAPACHICA said:


> Hi - I've been checking the UK's Border Agency's website pages on '_the rights and_ _responsibilities'_ of EU citizens within the country, to see what the differences with Spain's requirements actually are. I'm not about to highjack this thread - I wanted to know if the Spanish Regional Govts. have the right to require EU citizens, living in Spain, to have savings of a stated amount, (held within a Spanish bank..?) - before being granted residency. I'm still confused on that issue!
> 
> UK Border Agency | European nationals
> 
> ...



I don't know what exactly they mean by 'unreasonable burden' - I suspect it depends .... inasmuch as if the country is rich & can afford to support you to some extent, it will, but if it's broke, then any kind of support is 'unreasonable' - but I don't know, as I say

you aren't actually _granted residency, _though - you _register as resident_ - & in the UK it isn't a requirement as it is here - & EU citizens have a sort of 'automatic right' to reside in any other EU country - you won't/can't be thrown out without very good reason

as I think I said earlier on this thread - the difference is, here in Spain, if you don't register, there's a lot you can't do - in the UK, since EU citizens have the 'right' to live there, they will get any benefits any other resident can


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## GUAPACHICA (Jun 30, 2012)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Absolutely!
> What Spain does and doesn't do is very much bound up with the EU, but it must not be forgotten that there are many rules that countries choose or do not choose to impose and it's here that the differences between each country come from. If Spain does it, what ever "it" is, it's because it *can*.


Hi - I understand that Spain is choosing what conditions to impose, within this context of 'Residency' applications - but did you mean; ''Spain *can*..'' because it has the legal right, as per EU Law, or that; ''Spain *can*…'' because it is prepared to break EU Law - or, at least, to bend the rules, not fearing the potential consequences, even should there be a legally mounted challenge?

My question HERE is genuine - I have noted previous threads in which OPs have stated that we EU citizens have the right to live, work, study or retire within Spain
- without being required to hold, or to renew Residency papers - or to agree to any new conditions being imposed upon our continuing Residency status Is that still the case?

I can imagine the reasons why some OPs here are endorsing Spain's new tough stance on the issue of Residency, Personal Funds, Healthcare access etc. but, as a great supporter of the EU, i believe it's crucial for EU citizens to stand up for their rights, if and when these are being infringed by any Member State.

I would like to be sure, therefore, that all these new requirements re. Residency, Spanish bank accounts and personal savings are legal, within EU Law - which over-rides Spanish National and Regional Law, unless exceptions have been granted by the EU Parliament, itself. Isn't that so? Thanks for any assistance given which reduces my current confusion!

Saludos,

GC


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

GUAPACHICA said:


> Hi - I understand that Spain is choosing what conditions to impose, within this context of 'Residency' applications - but did you mean; ''Spain *can*..'' because it has the legal right, as per EU Law, or that; ''Spain *can*…'' because it is prepared to break EU Law - or, at least, to bend the rules, not fearing the potential consequences, even should there be a legally mounted challenge?
> 
> My question HERE is genuine - I have noted previous threads in which OPs have stated that we EU citizens have the right to live, work, study or retire within Spain
> - without being required to hold, or to renew Residency papers - or to agree to any new conditions being imposed upon our continuing Residency status Is that still the case?
> ...


Spain is imposing EU legislation because it can - the 'new' requirements for registering as resident have been part of EU legislation for some time (years?), but Spain has only now decided to impose them whereas in other EU countries they were enforced earlier


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

GUAPACHICA said:


> Hi - I understand that Spain is choosing what conditions to impose, within this context of 'Residency' applications - but did you mean; ''Spain *can*..'' because it has the legal right, as per EU Law, or that; ''Spain *can*…'' because it is prepared to break EU Law - or, at least, to bend the rules, not fearing the potential consequences, even should there be a legally mounted challenge?
> 
> My question HERE is genuine - I have noted previous threads in which OPs have stated that we EU citizens have the right to live, work, study or retire within Spain
> - without being required to hold, or to renew Residency papers - or to agree to any new conditions being imposed upon our continuing Residency status Is that still the case?
> ...


There is nothing whatsoever that says you can't stay here BUT if you want to access healthcare and education plus be able to vote in local elections and enjoy the benefits of being a "resident" then you have to comply with Spain's requirements. If you aren't a "resident" you cannot go on the padron which means that you can't buy a car here and since a foreign registered car can only be here on its foreign plates up to six months, you are effectively without transport of your own - this may not be so much of a problem if you are in an area with pleanty of public transport but if you aren't...

As for your "i believe it's crucial for EU citizens to stand up for their rights, if and when these are being infringed by any Member State." The rights of the rest of us are being infringed upon if there are freeloaders adding extra costs to the system so that the rest of us who are complying with the rules have to pay extra to cover the extra expense of non-contributors.

In addition, non-residents have limitations on the form of bank account they can have and the associated costs thereof. All of the foregoing is only right and fair when looked at from the point of view of the far greater majority of Spanish nationals and those immigrants who do comply and contribute to the system.

If you can see anything wrong with the logic of all that please say so, because I am sure the rest of us would like to hear it.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

GUAPACHICA said:


> Hi - I understand that Spain is choosing what conditions to impose, within this context of 'Residency' applications - but did you mean; ''Spain *can*..'' because it has the legal right, as per EU Law, or that; ''Spain *can*…'' because it is prepared to break EU Law - or, at least, to bend the rules, not fearing the potential consequences, even should there be a legally mounted challenge?
> 
> My question HERE is genuine - I have noted previous threads in which OPs have stated that we EU citizens have the right to live, work, study or retire within Spain
> - without being required to hold, or to renew Residency papers - or to agree to any new conditions being imposed upon our continuing Residency status Is that still the case?
> ...


 I mean it can because it has a legal right to. When they pass a law or whatever it is in the EU, they usually do it with a series of exceptions marked, so this is the law but if x,y or z happens then you can do a, b, or c. It's flexi law! So, with the Romanians as an example, there is freedom of movement for all member of the EU except the Romanians - and Spain is NOT the only country exercisng this right.
The other thing they do is pass a law that is so vague that it can be interpreted in any manner of ways like the thing about being a "burden" on the Spanish health system. What is a "burden"?
Spain is not violating EU policy. It is interpreting it.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Let's face it, the EU is yet another free market institution, like Gordon Brown's inexplicable decision to take the Bank of England out of Government control. Pure Hayek.

When examined critically for their actual effects, not the woolly 'philosophical' interpretation of these EU rules, there is only one beneficiary from the freedom of movement, goods, capital etc...: the super-rich. When poor Greek or Portuguese peasants or workers start buying retirement homes in the UK I'll believe in all this 'internationalism' crap. We Brits are here because we come from a comparatively wealthy EU country and can afford to. Those who think they can but in reality can't sooner or later board the old Ryanair back to Blighty. Guapa, you and I are here because we have more purchasing power,thanks to our superior UK earning power, than the average EU citizen east and south of Frankfurt has at his or her - especially her - disposal. We are in many ways Spain's new colonisers.
I'm happy to see poorer EU states taking action to protect their own citizens from the burden of supporting immigrants from other EU states who for whatever reason can't support themselves. Hopefully politicians in the UK will see sense too and do something to prevent tens or maybe hundreds of thousands of immigrants from piss-poor states like Romania entering the UK with the promise of full benefits on arrival - benefits which we Brits moan about as being inadequate yet which represent a fortune to people from some EU member states.
There is nothing wrong with nations putting the interests of their citizens first. Looking after one's family and friends before the interests of strangers is human nature for 99% of us and doesn't mean we're fascists or indifferent to human suffering.
Failure to take this into account will help to drive people into the arms of right wing semi or openly fascist groups such as the BNP and EDL.

We may have a lot to thank UKIP for in that they are currently providing a 'safe' outlet for opinions and fears which might otherwise be placed in much less salubrious hands. Strange that expressing nationalist sentiments is acceptable to the Left when they come from anywhere but the UK....


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I mean it can because it has a legal right to. When they pass a law or whatever it is in the EU, they usually do it with a series of exceptions marked, so this is the law but if x,y or z happens then you can do a, b, or c. It's flexi law! So, with the Romanians as an example, there is freedom of movement for all member of the EU except the Romanians - and Spain is NOT the only country exercisng this right.
> The other thing they do is pass a law that is so vague that it can be interpreted in any manner of ways like the thing about being a "burden" on the Spanish health system. What is a "burden"?
> Spain is not violating EU policy. It is interpreting it.


You are right in that EU Directives often have exemptions of various kinds for individual member states. The UK has an exemption from the Working Time Directive. It also invoked the 'marriage clause' to deny equal survivors benefits for same-sex Civilly Partnered couples where most local government pension schemes are involved.
As things currently stand, Sandra would lose around £4000 per annum income from my Teachers Pension, compared to a heterosexual couple, should I be kicked to death by an angry burro.. That's the sole reason why we hope the Gay Marriage legislation is passed...not because we support gay marriage per se, we don't, we would like the option of Civil Partnerships for all regardless of sexual orientation.
In principle I support the right of each EU member state to exercise such opt-outs as there are many cultural, legal and religious differences within the twenty-seven EU member states and generally speaking, one size does not fit all.
The 'marriage' clause came about, it is alleged, because Cherie Blair involved the RC church and persuaded Tony to bow to its pressure over the sanctity of marriage.
I'm no conspiracy theorist but I was closely involved in the legislative process at the time and I do believe there is a lot of truth in that allegation.


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## Lonely (Aug 11, 2012)

Lonely said:


> Right, I understand that.
> 
> So, do you have a link to where I can check how much would it cost to get health insurance?
> 
> ...


anyone please?

Thanks


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## Calas felices (Nov 29, 2007)

Whilst it is true that the UK has exemptions from the Working Time Directive so do most other European countries. I'm afraid this is a typical piece of legislation that emanated from Brussels which was drafted with little knowledge of the working practices of other countries and which whilst produced under the banner of Health and Safety legislation (it was not and the British Government argued this) It paid little heed to the financial consequences of some of the requirements. Brussels even had to have a waking night (as opposed to a non walking night) explained to them! Another example of badly drafted legislation.

As far as the Civil partnerships go and pension rights there was no conspiracy between Blair and the Catholic church (he was C of E at the time). The argument was made, quite rightly, that as civil partnerships didn't exist before 2005, then the legislation couldn't be retrospective. If the Odd couples Marriage Bill ever gets enacted in the UK, then as it is currently drafted, there will be no change to this.


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## GUAPACHICA (Jun 30, 2012)

baldilocks said:


> There is nothing whatsoever that says you can't stay here BUT if you want to access healthcare and education plus be able to vote in local elections and enjoy the benefits of being a "resident" then you have to comply with Spain's requirements. If you aren't a "resident" you cannot go on the padron which means that you can't buy a car here and since a foreign registered car can only be here on its foreign plates up to six months, you are effectively without transport of your own - this may not be so much of a problem if you are in an area with pleanty of public transport but if you aren't...
> 
> As for your "i believe it's crucial for EU citizens to stand up for their rights, if and when these are being infringed by any Member State." The rights of the rest of us are being infringed upon if there are freeloaders adding extra costs to the system so that the rest of us who are complying with the rules have to pay extra to cover the extra expense of non-contributors.
> 
> ...




Hi - I'm sorry, but you appear to have misunderstood the reason for my previous post!

My concern was raised, firstly, whilst reading other posts, the content of which highlighted the differing nature of the newly imposed financial requirements for 'Residency', at Regional Govt. level. Although I'm aware that Spanish regions enjoy significant autonomy, re. their interpretation and implementation of National Govt. legislation, EU Law does take precedence - so I wished to know whether these newly imposed 'Residency' requirements were in accordance with, or in opposition to, EU Law.

We know that the EU has enshrined in law the principle of '_ the free movement of people_', within its borders, thus giving EU citizens the right to travel, live, work, study and retire in the EU country of their choice, I'd have assumed, therefore, that the issue of 'Residency' conditions for EU citizens within any EU country, other than their own, would be one for Europe-wide legislation.

I decided to check out the UK Border Agency website to see what is demanded by the UK, in comparison. Unsurprisingly, I found significant differences, so I still had concerns re. the Spanish National or Regional Govt's right to set financial conditions on 'Residency' applications for EU citizens - requiring them to deposit set amounts of savings and their monthly incomes into Spanish bank account!.

The other relevant issue, for me, was that OPs had advised, previously, that under EU Law, no country's Govt. could require Expat. EU citizens even to become 'Resident', or to renew 'Residency' papers, periodically, should they choose to go ahead, regardless. 
i have read the pertinent clauses in the EU legislation and the OPs' interpretation would seem to be accurate - I'm not a lawyer, however…!

FYO, as a law-abiding expat. I have no wish to be non-compliant with any legitimate Spanish 'Residency' requirements, either nationally or regionally! I support all imposed legal conditions relating to my right to reside in Spain. However, I am an EU citizen as well as British, so am fully aware that my right to live in Spain is due, firstly, to key EU principles, policy and legislation - which I support and uphold! I know that if the UK were to leave the EU, I would no longer be welcome to live in Spain, unless I were prepared to make a permanent decision to renounce UK citizenship - as some, here, have already chosen to do! 

So, I was NOT challenging the moral requirement to pay my way, whether in Spain or in the UK. Nor was I opposing any legally enshrined right that the Spanish National or Regional Govt. has to impose financial conditions on 'Residency' for expat EU citizens!

I WAS asking for info. on the legality, or otherwise, of such conditions with respect to EU legislation. Spain is a democracy and volunteered to become an EU member state - so, we EU citizens who relocate here are entitled to be reassured that all legislation which applies to us, whilst living in this country, complies with EU Law - independent of any 'moral' principles at stake!

IMO, none of us should feel a need to accept, , any Govt. imposed conditions or restrictions on our lives, without first ascertaining the legal authority which mandates them! In so doing, we would not be expressing ingratitude or ungraciousness towards our Spanish hosts - rather, we'd be acting responsibly, as residents of a 21st century Western European democratic state! 

BTW, my own Spanish friends behave and counsel likewise - they would be horrified if I were to feel obliged, in their country, to accept any such requirements, unquestioningly. That would be to perceive their own democracy as having less validity than that claimed by my own country -the UK!

I hope this has helped clarify my stance!
Saludos,
GC


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## Alpujarran (Feb 22, 2013)

GUAPACHICA: The short answer is that Spanish law on this issue does not contravene EU law. However, it *is* true that many oficianados *do not* understand the law.


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## Alpujarran (Feb 22, 2013)

If you stay here for more than 90 days you can be fined (EUR 300 I think) for not registering your *right* to residence here. If you apply and they don't register that *right*, well that's it. The *right* is given to you by the EU treaty - with certain conditions. Spain has no say in the matter - except in the "certain-conditions" department.

And one of the certain conditions is the "_burden_" thing. They can't expel you unless you become an unreasonable burden. The basic proof of this would be claiming certain (mostly means-tested) benefits. If you do that then you've basically conceded that you can't support yourself.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Calas felices said:


> Whilst it is true that the UK has exemptions from the Working Time Directive so do most other European countries. I'm afraid this is a typical piece of legislation that emanated from Brussels which was drafted with little knowledge of the working practices of other countries and which whilst produced under the banner of Health and Safety legislation (it was not and the British Government argued this) It paid little heed to the financial consequences of some of the requirements. Brussels even had to have a waking night (as opposed to a non walking night) explained to them! Another example of badly drafted legislation.
> 
> As far as the Civil partnerships go and pension rights there was no conspiracy between Blair and the Catholic church (he was C of E at the time). The argument was made, quite rightly, that as civil partnerships didn't exist before 2005, then the legislation couldn't be retrospective. If the *Odd couples Marriage Bill *ever gets enacted in the UK, then as it is currently drafted, there will be no change to this.


So in your opinion there are no heterosexual 'odd couples', then?

I didn't mention the word 'conspiracy', did I? And I mentioned the influence of Cherie, a devout Catholic. Blair had at this time in fact been attending Mass whilst not taking part in Holy Commmunion.
Your point about the legislation predating Civil Partnerships is not quite correct. I am guessing that my involvement with this issue and other issues relating to employment equality matters may be a tad closer than yours as I was part of a DWP/TUC Committee which had input when the legislation was enshrined in UK law. It is a matter of equality legislation as in the Social Chapter adopted by the Blair Government. In the name of gender equality the Blair government was obliged to extend equal survivors benefits to widowers who had also been excluded because of the reason you cite,namely that reckonable service should be backdated to 1988. When this occurred I wrote pointing out that the Government, whilst recognising the need to avoid gender discrimination, was still practising discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation. Somewhere in my files I have a copy of a letter from the DWP affirming that the 'marriage clause' precluded these rights friom being extended to gay and lesbian Civil Partners. So nothing to do with pension rules. However I am informed by Union lawyers that in the event of the Same Sex Couples Marriage Bill being passed there will be full equality for all regarding pension rights.

I was also involved in the Judicial Review which followed the legislation, a Review funded by seven Trades Unions including my own. Whilst not getting us any further on the pensions issue the Judge's ruling did clarify some issues of concern relating to Genuine Occupational Requirements for staff in faith schools.

I note your use of the word 'odd' to refer to gay and lesbian people and find it offensive.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

GUAPACHICA said:


> Hi - I'm sorry, but you appear to have misunderstood the reason for my previous post!
> 
> My concern was raised, firstly, whilst reading other posts, the content of which highlighted the differing nature of the newly imposed financial requirements for 'Residency', at Regional Govt. level. Although I'm aware that Spanish regions enjoy significant autonomy, re. their interpretation and implementation of National Govt. legislation, EU Law does take precedence - so I wished to know whether these newly imposed 'Residency' requirements were in accordance with, or in opposition to, EU Law.
> 
> ...


Think about it....in an EU of twenty-seven nation states with different cultural, social and religious traditions and which are at widely disparate stages of economic development, it would be impossible to have a 'one size fits all' legal framework.
So what we have, as has been pointed out, is a general principle subject to varied interpretation according to eaxh member state's perceived interests.
Another example of this is the fact that only the UK and ROI allowed 'open door' access to the newly-acceded former socialist states in 2004. All other states imposed strict quotas.
When I applied for residency in Prague -temporary residency, not permanent residency which is more difficult to get - I had to show evidence of bank deposits, income and medical insurance. I can't remember the exact amount but it was a lot more than that required by the Spanish Government,
The UK must be one of the easiest EU countries to migrate to.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Calas felices said:


> Whilst it is true that the UK has exemptions from the Working Time Directive so do most other European countries. I'm afraid this is a typical piece of legislation that emanated from Brussels which was drafted with little knowledge of the working practices of other countries and which whilst produced under the banner of Health and Safety legislation (it was not and the British Government argued this) It paid little heed to the financial consequences of some of the requirements. Brussels even had to have a waking night (as opposed to a non walking night) explained to them! Another example of badly drafted legislation.
> 
> As far as the Civil partnerships go and pension rights there was no conspiracy between Blair and the Catholic church (he was C of E at the time). The argument was made, quite rightly, that as *civil partnerships didn't exist before 2005, *then the legislation couldn't be retrospective. If the Odd couples Marriage Bill ever gets enacted in the UK, then as it is currently drafted, there will be no change to this.


Fyi...the Civil Partnership Act was passed in 2004. The first CPs took place in 2006, if I remember rightly.


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## Alpujarran (Feb 22, 2013)

*Freedom of movement*



GUAPACHICA said:


> . . .I WAS asking for info. on the legality, or otherwise, of such conditions with respect to EU legislation.


Try guide_2004_38_ec_en.pdf
I found it a good summary of
EC-Directive-2004-38 / EC-Directiva-2004-38.pdf

Then there's 
RD 240/2007 
RD 557/2011 

Happy reading


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## Calas felices (Nov 29, 2007)

I'm sure that most people are bored with something that affects such a minority of the population (and probably don't care anyway) but for clarity: 
Since 5 December *2005*, same-sex (but not opposite sex) couples have been able to register their partnership, giving them new rights. Couples who register would have a new legal status as registered civil partners and would acquire rights similar to those of married couples. The implications for pensions are:

registered partners will become eligible for survivors' benefits (e.g. spouse's pensions) based on pensionable service from 5 December* 2005*.

From Divorce and Pensions tips website: Same sex civil partnerships do not have automatic rights to their partner’s pension benefits on death.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Calas felices said:


> I'm sure that most people are bored with something that affects such a minority of the population (and probably don't care anyway) but for clarity:
> Since 5 December *2005*, same-sex (but not opposite sex) couples have been able to register their partnership, giving them new rights. Couples who register would have a new legal status as registered civil partners and would acquire rights similar to those of married couples. The implications for pensions are:
> 
> registered partners will become eligible for survivors' benefits (e.g. spouse's pensions) based on pensionable service from 5 December* 2005*.
> ...


1. Why should we be bored? It is interesting and important. Many of us know people to whom this is quite pertinent.

2. Surely the final sentence contradicts the earlier sentences, unless I am missing something.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

GUAPACHICA said:


> Hi - I understand that Spain is choosing what conditions to impose, within this context of 'Residency' applications - but did you mean; ''Spain *can*..'' because it has the legal right, as per EU Law, or that; ''Spain *can*…'' because it is prepared to break EU Law - or, at least, to bend the rules, not fearing the potential consequences, even should there be a legally mounted challenge?
> 
> My question HERE is genuine - I have noted previous threads in which OPs have stated that we EU citizens have the right to live, work, study or retire within Spain
> - without being required to hold, or to renew Residency papers - or to agree to any new conditions being imposed upon our continuing Residency status Is that still the case?
> ...


The BIG mistake you are making is in thinking that this is EU LAW or Rules. It is NOT, it is the wording of a EU Directive.

A EU Directive will set out what the EU *wants* (it can't compel) member states to do. When, and to what extent the member ststes comply is entirely up to the individual member state.


Barrack room lawyers who don't get their facts right comes to mind here!


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## GUAPACHICA (Jun 30, 2012)

baldilocks said:


> The BIG mistake you are making is in thinking that this is EU LAW or Rules. It is NOT, it is the wording of a EU Directive.
> 
> A EU Directive will set out what the EU *wants* (it can't compel) member states to do. When, and to what extent the member ststes comply is entirely up to the individual member state.
> 
> ...


Hi - _OUCH!_!! I'd hoped not to sound too dogmatic - which is why I posed questions and asked for clarification within my own posts -because I was both confused and concerned, which felt extremely uncomfortable and unsettling, to say the least! 

Thanks to the responses I've received on this thread, including your own (see above), I'm now much less confused - although still slightly concerned, which is unsurprising, given the pace of legislative change in Spain over the past two years, with more, no doubt, to come..! 

I have appreciated being able to raise my questions and to seek clarification on these matters here - as there are no 'Guiri' or Expat. groups in my city to which I could taken my issues for discussion. Foreigners abound, but I'm not aware of any who are currently applying for 'Residency' there - most EU citizens are young students, travellers, musicians or TEFL teachers on short-term contracts, only.

Thanks for your assistance re EU 'directives' - very helpful! This whole thread has wetted my appetite for a much better understanding of the EU's powers to direct, legislate and mandate, so I'd better get started - before the UK pulls the plug on its own membership, which would be a whole new ball-game for British expats like myself…! 

Saludos,

GC


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

GUAPACHICA said:


> Hi - _OUCH!_!! I'd hoped not to sound too dogmatic - which is why I posed questions and asked for clarification within my own posts -because I was both confused and concerned, which felt extremely uncomfortable and unsettling, to say the least!
> 
> Thanks to the responses I've received on this thread, including your own (see above), I'm now much less confused - although still slightly concerned, which is unsurprising, given the pace of legislative change in Spain over the past two years, with more, no doubt, to come..!
> 
> ...


"there are no 'Guiri' or Expat. groups in my city" Apart from Andalucía, your profile doesn't say where you are. I live in a village and there aren't any groups here hence my being on the forum. There used to be loose gatherings in Alcalá la Real at a Brit shop until it folded with massive debts through complete and utter mismanagement (all take and no give), otherwise apart from a few who bar-prop, there is no "group".


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

GUAPACHICA said:


> Hi - _OUCH!_!! I'd hoped not to sound too dogmatic - which is why I posed questions and asked for clarification within my own posts -because I was both confused and concerned, which felt extremely uncomfortable and unsettling, to say the least!
> 
> Thanks to the responses I've received on this thread, including your own (see above), I'm now much less confused - although still slightly concerned, which is unsurprising, given the pace of legislative change in Spain over the past two years, with more, no doubt, to come..!
> 
> ...





ah but....... certainly the TEFL teachers & the other categories you mention have to register as resident if here 90+ days - the TEFL teachers immediately, since they are working - so have to pay tax & NI


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## IanB (Feb 11, 2013)

May I be permited to return to the original posters question on this thread. For some three to four months I have been studying the possibility of a permanent move to Spain. However in recent days the further I delve into all this the more confusing and contradictory it all becomes. On this particular subject --"residencia" is it even worth our while continuing with everything we have read on this thread alone let alone elsewhere?

We are a normal(?) heterosexual couple of 43 years marriage, both have paid the full term NI contributions in the UK and are now on pension. Both state pensions are above the basic as stated above along with some SERPS and graduated that we all had to pay. We both have small private pensions saved for during our working life. We have a property to sell here and are looking to long term rental. on top of the income we are told by DWP that they will pay the Spanish authorities £3500 (GBP) per annum each for access to Spanish healthcare at the same level as a Spanish citizen. That is income in anyone's book. However it seems from figures quoted here that despite on the face of it paying far more tax in Spain than here (I'm not averse to that) it is likely that the Spanish authorites will refuse an application for the residencia. Hence denying access to healthcare, car purchase, and the like. Can anyone start even to clear this up please?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

IanB said:


> May I be permited to return to the original posters question on this thread. For some three to four months I have been studying the possibility of a permanent move to Spain. However in recent days the further I delve into all this the more confusing and contradictory it all becomes. On this particular subject --"residencia" is it even worth our while continuing with everything we have read on this thread alone let alone elsewhere?
> 
> We are a normal(?) heterosexual couple of 43 years marriage, both have paid the full term NI contributions in the UK and are now on pension. Both state pensions are above the basic as stated above along with some SERPS and graduated that we all had to pay. We both have small private pensions saved for during our working life. We have a property to sell here and are looking to long term rental. on top of the income we are told by DWP that they will pay the Spanish authorities £3500 (GBP) per annum each for access to Spanish healthcare at the same level as a Spanish citizen. That is income in anyone's book. However it seems from figures quoted here that despite on the face of it paying far more tax in Spain than here (I'm not averse to that) it is likely that the Spanish authorites will refuse an application for the residencia. Hence denying access to healthcare, car purchase, and the like. Can anyone start even to clear this up please?


you'll be able to register as resident with *no problem at all* with your state pensions & the S1 forms which the DWP will provide you with

the S1 entitles you to full state healthcare on the same basis as a Spanish citizen who is a pensioner, as you say


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## IanB (Feb 11, 2013)

Thank you Xabiachica for that. There is so much conflicting information out there that the maze seems to be never ending. Income, taxation, savings, property taxes and in the end you start to believe that you have gone completely barmy and there is no law, order or rules to any of it, whilst the UK Civil and Diplomatic service seem to sit in isolation and an ivory tower saying no problem nothing has changed.

Again Thanks
Regards


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