# Visa Schengen for non eu/eea citizen-advice pls..!!!



## strawberries82

hi,
i'm british citizen married to an algerian citizen.
my husband applied for a short stay visa at the german embassy in algeria 10 days ago,before he applied,we had some issues with the embassy regarding the visa requirements,under eu laws,we needed to prove only the family ties,a copy of my passport,my husband's passport and a letter stating my intentions to settle in germany and the request of the issuing of the required visa.

first my husband called the embassy over a month ago to request what is needed(knowing that we knew already what was needed)and we had some ignorant staff member,the lady in question asked my husband to bring all the paperwork needed to apply for a tourist visa,so,payslips,hotel booking,financial statements,medical insurance..etc...my husband then told her that because he is the spouse of an eu citizen,all the requested paperwork is not needed and the proof was in the schengen form the sections..*19-*20-*31-*32-*33:

it states:The fields marked with * shall not be filled in by family members of EU, EEA or CH citizens (spouse, child or dependent ascendant) while exercising their right to free movement. Family members of EU, EEA or CH citizens shall present documents to prove this relationship and fill in fields no 34 and 35.

anyway,the lady did not want to hear a thing,so i had to complain to the german ministry of foreign affairs,3 days later the embassy it self sent me an email asking us to make an appointment and that the application would be treated under the current laws for spouses of eu citizens.

when my husband went 10 days ago to apply form the visa,he was shocked,the lady in the counter asked him for an address in germany(section *31),then my husband had to explain the above again,the lady did not want to hear anything and started arguing with my husband and asked him for the purpose of the trip,so my hubby told her we intend to settle,then the lady told him that he doesn't need a short stay visa then,but he needs a long stay visa D..!!

my husband explained that under eu laws we need just an entry visa for germany and we don't need a long stay visa because im not in germany yet and in order to apply for that visa i needed to be settled there,there are some paper work needed in the application anyway and we can't possibly apply for that kind of application,we would be denied..i don't know if it was the main purpose of the lady that was to mislead my husband to change the application then he would be refused,not sure,but i had that impression when my husband told me what happened..anyway,short story long,my husband insisted to apply for a short stay visa and then the lady told him that if he insist,the visa application would be refused.

knowing that my husband added a print outs of the directive 2004/38/CE and the visa code derogations for spouses of eu citizens when applying for the visa,also an email from *your europe advice* stating our rights for an entry visa and if the problem is still there,we have to complain to the eu commission and solvit.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2004:158:0077:0123:en:PDF

http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/policies/borders/docs/c_2010_1620_en.pdf
*see part 3 pages 81 to 92*

anyway,just wanted to share our case and story,if there is anyone who can give us advice or what to expect,that would be nice.

just wanted to add the documents my husband submitted:
-the schengen form ,copy of my passport,his passport,our marriage certificate,a biometrique picture,a proof of flight confirmation that i'm going to travel to france(i'm in france right now) , proof that i'm going to travel from france to germany(train ticket confirmation) but they did not want to take the last 2 papers.
a letter from me the eu citizen explaining my intentions and our travel plans,a letter from my husband explaining pretty much the same thing and thats all.we are expecting an answer next week..but to be honest,i'm not confident that we are going to get the visa.

feel free to comment on the subject and sorry for the long post.


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## ALKB

strawberries82 said:


> hi,
> i'm british citizen married to an algerian citizen.
> my husband applied for a short stay visa at the german embassy in algeria 10 days ago,before he applied,we had some issues with the embassy regarding the visa requirements,under eu laws,we needed to prove only the family ties,a copy of my passport,my husband's passport and a letter stating my intentions to settle in germany and the request of the issuing of the required visa.
> 
> first my husband called the embassy over a month ago to request what is needed(knowing that we knew already what was needed)and we had some ignorant staff member,the lady in question asked my husband to bring all the paperwork needed to apply for a tourist visa,so,payslips,hotel booking,financial statements,medical insurance..etc...my husband then told her that because he is the spouse of an eu citizen,all the requested paperwork is not needed and the proof was in the schengen form the sections..*19-*20-*31-*32-*33:
> 
> it states:The fields marked with * shall not be filled in by family members of EU, EEA or CH citizens (spouse, child or dependent ascendant) while exercising their right to free movement. Family members of EU, EEA or CH citizens shall present documents to prove this relationship and fill in fields no 34 and 35.
> 
> anyway,the lady did not want to hear a thing,so i had to complain to the german ministry of foreign affairs,3 days later the embassy it self sent me an email asking us to make an appointment and that the application would be treated under the current laws for spouses of eu citizens.
> 
> when my husband went 10 days ago to apply form the visa,he was shocked,the lady in the counter asked him for an address in germany(section *31),then my husband had to explain the above again,the lady did not want to hear anything and started arguing with my husband and asked him for the purpose of the trip,so my hubby told her we intend to settle,then the lady told him that he doesn't need a short stay visa then,but he needs a long stay visa D..!!
> 
> my husband explained that under eu laws we need just an entry visa for germany and we don't need a long stay visa because im not in germany yet and in order to apply for that visa i needed to be settled there,there are some paper work needed in the application anyway and we can't possibly apply for that kind of application,we would be denied..i don't know if it was the main purpose of the lady that was to mislead my husband to change the application then he would be refused,not sure,but i had that impression when my husband told me what happened..anyway,short story long,my husband insisted to apply for a short stay visa and then the lady told him that if he insist,the visa application would be refused.
> 
> knowing that my husband added a print outs of the directive 2004/38/CE and the visa code derogations for spouses of eu citizens when applying for the visa,also an email from *your europe advice* stating our rights for an entry visa and if the problem is still there,we have to complain to the eu commission and solvit.
> 
> http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2004:158:0077:0123:en:PDF
> 
> http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/policies/borders/docs/c_2010_1620_en.pdf
> *see part 3 pages 81 to 92*
> 
> anyway,just wanted to share our case and story,if there is anyone who can give us advice or what to expect,that would be nice.
> 
> just wanted to add the documents my husband submitted:
> -the schengen form ,copy of my passport,his passport,our marriage certificate,a biometrique picture,a proof of flight confirmation that i'm going to travel to france(i'm in france right now) , proof that i'm going to travel from france to germany(train ticket confirmation) but they did not want to take the last 2 papers.
> a letter from me the eu citizen explaining my intentions and our travel plans,a letter from my husband explaining pretty much the same thing and thats all.we are expecting an answer next week..but to be honest,i'm not confident that we are going to get the visa.
> 
> feel free to comment on the subject and sorry for the long post.



EEA family permits are usually issued to either join or accompany an EEA spouse.

You are in France, so he can't join you in Germany at the time of application.

You also don't intend to travel with him, so he is not going to accompany you.

Why is it so important for him to apply now instead of you moving to Germany and him applying a few days later, as soon as you have registered yourself with the local municipality?


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## strawberries82

under eu laws we can travel together to any eu country,i don't have to go first and then register,i posted the links above and they clearly state that,i can travel with my husband,i'm in france right now visiting family and waiting for my husband to join me to travel to germany,and this is what i stated in my letter to the embassy.

i have the right to have my husband with me(to accompany)from france and i have an email from europa stating that,so i don't see where is the problem,my husband will accompany me from france,so when he gets a schengen visa the country of entry would be france and the main destination would be germany and this way we can fulfil the requirement of *accompany* and for * join*,it does not mean *only* to join when the eu citizen is settled or registered there..it could be that the eu citizen travels to germany and the non eu citizen joins him the same day or the day after or anytime before the 3 months deadline,i don't need to go before hand and register there,there is no legal requirement for me to do so,i'm not obliged to register straight away,i have the right to stay in germany for up to 3 months without the authorities asking me to do anything.


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## strawberries82

ALKB said:


> EEA family permits are usually issued to either join or accompany an EEA spouse.
> 
> You are in France, so he can't join you in Germany at the time of application.
> 
> You also don't intend to travel with him, so he is not going to accompany you.
> 
> Why is it so important for him to apply now instead of you moving to Germany and him applying a few days later, as soon as you have registered yourself with the local municipality?


please read this link :

http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs...10_1620_en.pdf
see part 3 pages 81 to 92

u will understand what i'm talking about once u read the above pages from 82 to 92,it states the rights of eu citizens and their family members and the right of the family member to apply for an entry visa .


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## strawberries82

ALKB said:


> Why is it so important for him to apply now instead of you moving to Germany and him applying a few days later, as soon as you have registered yourself with the local municipality?


to respond to this question,if i do like u suggest,i will not see my husband for like 3 months minimum,u know why?? because once we go down that road,its not gonna be regarded as an application for a short stay visa but then they will ask my husband to apply for a reunification visa,long stay D VISA(as i explained before in previous posts,yes it would be fine for me to go there and then my husband joins me straight away,but they already asked him to apply for the long stay visa D even though i'm not in germany,so if i did we would have been in trouble)and the process for that kind of visa varies between 1 to 3 months,its not a schengen visa (short stay) that they have to process legally for up to 15 days, no ,this application could take up to 3 months and u have to supply all sort of paperwork needed for that application(like a spouse visa if u like),its in their website ,just go and check it out..they don't even have a section regarding spouses of eu citizens in their own website! so to respond to your question,its so important that we don't get screwed and this is why its so important for us to get it right.


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## ALKB

strawberries82 said:


> under eu laws we can travel together to any eu country,i don't have to go first and then register,i posted the links above and they clearly state that,i can travel with my husband,i'm in france right now visiting family and waiting for my husband to join me to travel to germany,and this is what i stated in my letter to the embassy.
> 
> i have the right to have my husband with me(to accompany)from france and i have an email from europa stating that,so i don't see where is the problem,my husband will accompany me from france,so when he gets a schengen visa the country of entry would be france and the main destination would be germany and this way we can fulfil the requirement of *accompany* and for * join*,it does not mean *only* to join when the eu citizen is settled or registered there..it could be that the eu citizen travels to germany and the non eu citizen joins him the same day or the day after or anytime before the 3 months deadline,i don't need to go before hand and register there,there is no legal requirement for me to do so,i'm not obliged to register straight away,i have the right to stay in germany for up to 3 months without the authorities asking me to do anything.



Yes, you can.

But why not apply at the French Embassy so your husband can join you in France and travel with you to Germany?

Right now he is a visa national who is not living with his EEA spouse, applying for a visa to a country in which his spouse is not exercising treaty rights (yet) and who might or might not decide to travel to Germany.

Of course you can do it and I am sure you will get the visa eventually, it just looks a bit dodgy?


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## strawberries82

ALKB said:


> Yes, you can.
> 
> But why not apply at the French Embassy so your husband can join you in France and travel with you to Germany?
> 
> Right now he is a visa national who is not living with his EEA spouse, applying for a visa to a country in which his spouse is not exercising treaty rights (yet) and who might or might not decide to travel to Germany.
> 
> Of course you can do it and I am sure you will get the visa eventually, it just looks a bit dodgy?


you are mistaken AGAIN,i am actually exercising my treaty rights of FREE MOVEMENT,i did move from the UK to FRANCE,so i am exercising my treaty rights,and if u know the directive or even read it u will understand again the concept of free movement and the rights u have when u move with family members in the EU,as for the so called DODGY remark,i don't see why u are referring to it this way..!!! why do u think its dodgy?? doesn't matter why we are in this situation,regardless,we have the right to move freely anywhere in the eu and traveling from anywhere in the world...it does not matter if i want to travel to germany or france or anywhere else,even if we get the german visa and i want to settle in italy or spain,it doesn't matter under eu laws,i just need an entry visa for my husband..and this is the concept of the free movement of persons.

please concentrate on giving an advice rather than judging...if u have any knowledge or experience on what might happen then be my guest and u are welcome to comment,making comments just for the purpose of frustrating me,its not the way to go..i can see clearly that u are of no help to me and its clear that i have more knowledge than u have regarding eu laws and directives and the purpose of this thread in this forum is to see what might happen in my situation ,maybe someone in this forum experienced a similar case or can advice from past experience and this is what i asked,not someone lecturing me on why this or why that.. 
worst case scenario we will be refused and then i know what to do next..i'm starting to feel that posting this query here is a mistake.

please abstain from replying if its not constructive.


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## strawberries82

this is the email i received from europa advice after we had our first misunderstanding with the embassy:

Dear 

You will find the answer to your question. Please note that the advice given by "Your Europe Advice" are independent advice and can not be considered as reflecting the views of the European Commission or any other institution or staff members of the EU. These tips are not the responsibility of the European Commission or any other EU institution or national. 

Dear Madam, 

As provided in Article 5, paragraph 2 of Directive 2004/38, Member States may impose the visa requirement for entry to family members who are nationals of third countries and travel with a citizen of the Union to which the Directive applies OR JOIN. However, as was pointed out in the case law of the European Court of Justice, the family members have not only the right to enter the territory of the Member State, but also the right to obtain an entry visa, which differentiates them from other third countries which do not have this right. Otherwise, except restrictions of public order, public health or public safety reasoned, your husband has the right to obtain a visa. 

A short-stay visa must indeed be issued at no charge as soon as possible and within the framework of an accelerated procedure. In the same case, Member States may only require the presentation of a valid passport and proof of the existence of family ties. No additional documents, the certificate type home, proof of sufficient resources, invitation letter or return ticket, may be required.

If the problem persists, please contact via the UK SOLVIT center of the network, which will link to its German correspondent. 

SOLVIT is a network of online problem-solving: the EU Member States work together to solve pragmatically, the problems caused by the misapplication of Internal Market law by public authorities. There is a SOLVIT center in each EU Member State (as well as Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein). SOLVIT Centres can help with handling complaints from both citizens and businesses. These centers are part of the national administration and are committed to providing real solutions to real problems within a short period of ten weeks. The SOLVIT is free. 

More details and practical information useful to: SOLVIT homepage 

Sincerely, 
Your Europe Advice


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## James3214

Strawberries82, whilst I appreciate your posts on here can you please re-read the rules (especially rule 1) and don't criticize those members that have come on here to help you. You are unlikely to get any further help from anyone. AKLB is very knowledgeable and has been a big help to many posters on the forum.
So please continue to use the forum with courtesy and respect towards other posters and expect to receive the same back.


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## ALKB

strawberries82 said:


> you are mistaken AGAIN,i am actually exercising my treaty rights of FREE MOVEMENT,i did move from the UK to FRANCE,so i am exercising my treaty rights,and if u know the directive or even read it u will understand again the concept of free movement and the rights u have when u move with family members in the EU,as for the so called DODGY remark,i don't see why u are referring to it this way..!!! why do u think its dodgy?? doesn't matter why we are in this situation,regardless,we have the right to move freely anywhere in the eu and traveling from anywhere in the world...it does not matter if i want to travel to germany or france or anywhere else,even if we get the german visa and i want to settle in italy or spain,it doesn't matter under eu laws,i just need an entry visa for my husband..and this is the concept of the free movement of persons.
> 
> please concentrate on giving an advice rather than judging...if u have any knowledge or experience on what might happen then be my guest and u are welcome to comment,making comments just for the purpose of frustrating me,its not the way to go..i can see clearly that u are of no help to me and its clear that i have more knowledge than u have regarding eu laws and directives and the purpose of this thread in this forum is to see what might happen in my situation ,maybe someone in this forum experienced a similar case or can advice from past experience and this is what i asked,not someone lecturing me on why this or why that..
> worst case scenario we will be refused and then i know what to do next..i'm starting to feel that posting this query here is a mistake.
> 
> please abstain from replying if its not constructive.



I am not judging and I apologise if my remark came across this way.

I was just pointing out that you are not currently exercising treaty rights in Germany. If you exercise treaty rights in France then it MIGHT be easier to get a French EEA family permit.

I have always tried to make my husband's EEA applications as boring and straightforward as possible and he always had his passport back with the visa within a few days.

You have applied only 11 days ago and the Embassy has 15 days to get back to you, so all might be well. I am only saying that the way you have gone about your application COULD put some extra scrutiny on your application, as sham marriages for the purpose of illegal immigration (which I am ABSOLUTELY NOT saying yours is!!) often try to use a similar situation in order to get an initial visa.

I hope the visa will be issued and wish you all the best.


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## beppi

In general, people are more likely to help you with what you want to achieve if you do not tell them they are wrong and that you will fight.


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## strawberries82

ALKB said:


> I am not judging and I apologise if my remark came across this way.
> 
> I was just pointing out that you are not currently exercising treaty rights in Germany. If you exercise treaty rights in France then it MIGHT be easier to get a French EEA family permit.
> 
> I have always tried to make my husband's EEA applications as boring and straightforward as possible and he always had his passport back with the visa within a few days.
> 
> You have applied only 11 days ago and the Embassy has 15 days to get back to you, so all might be well. I am only saying that the way you have gone about your application COULD put some extra scrutiny on your application, as sham marriages for the purpose of illegal immigration (which I am ABSOLUTELY NOT saying yours is!!) often try to use a similar situation in order to get an initial visa.
> 
> I hope the visa will be issued and wish you all the best.


hi ALKB,

THANKS a lot for the message,i know u are trying to help and to be honest i was a bit stressed and i might over reacted,nevertheless,i suggest in the future when advising people to try to be objective and try to advice according to the question asked and not try to look for something that is not there,this is why maybe your remark sounded the way it sounded...nevermind,and i appreciate the help and as i said before (its not a bad thing) you need to get up to date with the eu laws and the rights of EU citizens and their family members..because what u know as u pointed out previously is just not wrong but its not right 100%.

As i explained,the EU citizen (in my case a british) has a right to move and reside freely in any eu member state with his spouse/partner/children up to 21 or dependant/parents for up to 3 month without any conditions or formalities asked by that member state.

sometimes people can't afford lawyers or can't access legal advice and they come to forums like this ones knowing that there is knowledgeable individuals who can provide the same service pore or less and they act sometimes accordingly,what i'm trying to say is,its good to have good intentions when trying to help but u need to have the right answer to the question asked if u can make thew difference..giving just a partial answer would not help,specially in my case i have to right to either move to germany as u suggested and then register and apply for my husband,it would take ages for him to get here,they will scrutinize his application longer then it should..or i had just to apply for his entry visa as i'm entitled to as an eu citizen.

well,my husband went yesterday to get his passport and he got the visa C short stay for 90 days..!!!..what i think guys is ,don't give up your rights in the first bump in the road,they will try to put u down,like what they did trying to oblige my husband to apply for the long stay visa D,this why they could refuse him and they would have every right to do so..u know by applying to an application where u don't have the right paperwork for..

just as a side note,i sent the embassy 2 emails after what happened with my husband during the submission of his application,I complained very loudly,i copied and pasted the eu directive 2004/38/CE and a copy of the special derogations in the visa code schengen regarding family members of eu citizens when applying for an entry visa and their rights to get it issued..and i threatened them to complain to the EU commission and solvit if my husband's visa is refused.

:laser: embassy of germany...lol

just kidding,we are so happy now and this is what all matters.

sorry again for over reacting.


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## strawberries82

beppi said:


> In general, people are more likely to help you with what you want to achieve if you do not tell them they are wrong and that you will fight.


well if someone is wrong and u take his advice and act accordingly,it could have a serious effects and very bad repercussions ON your life..if i took the advice ,it would take me like 3 to 4 month before to get to see my husband and i'm not sure 100% i will go to germany and get a job straight away and be able to sponsor my husband's visa,so it was a very high risk taking advice..now,i did not to ask people not to help,my message WAS clear,please don't help if u don't have enough knowledge , what i asked is for people to advice according to their own experiences and if they did if its similar to my case and by the way,i did explain what i needed,the reply wasn't according to what i asked..so if u were in my shoes i would guess u would act the same.

and i was right at the end,wasn't i?


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## beppi

You were right on the purely formalistic part, which I did not comment on.
I was (and still am) right on the interpersonal aspect. You generally achieve more in life by making friends, not enemies. This applies even to buerocrats - they are certainly not the most liekeable kind of creature, but sometimes it pays to still be friendly even though you feel like being aggressive.
The way you "won" this case, you will be remembered as pushy, know-it-all pain-in-the-ass (and you remember them as ignorant blockheads). Is that really the way you prefer?


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## strawberries82

James3214 said:


> Strawberries82, whilst I appreciate your posts on here can you please re-read the rules (especially rule 1) and don't criticize those members that have come on here to help you. You are unlikely to get any further help from anyone. AKLB is very knowledgeable and has been a big help to many posters on the forum.
> So please continue to use the forum with courtesy and respect towards other posters and expect to receive the same back.


hi james,look im not here to look for trouble,as a moderator,u should not take sides,u should have probably sent me a private message and again not taking any side and just try to sort out whatever is the issue,now,i apologized to AKLB for overreacting,u are the most likely and best person to understand why i reacted the way i did..i was stressed and was frustrated by the remak and u know like me that u don't poke a bear when he is crunky..anyway,u don't poke him at all..if u see what i mean.

i asked a question and the question needs to be answered accordingly,u should put a rule that people when they advise they don't make unnecessary remarks that could put people off and just frustrates them..if u are in the shoes of someone who is worried sick about something and comes here for help,u should help him not adding more unnecessary burden.

just to let u know,i'm an active member of another forum,with more than 400 comments,i have a large amount of knowledge in eu laws/directive's/visa schengen code..ect..i helped countless people in that forum and i never made any other remark or gave an advice not based on the question asked..under eu laws the immigration history of an applicant don't matter,what matters is that the person is not a risk to public policy,public health and public security.

the reason why i came to this section of this forum is because its a section of the german expats forum where people discuss matters relating to germany visa's or immigration queries and because the forum where i'm a member they don't have the same section like in this forum and this this the only reason why i came here..now i could have just sent u this message private to explain myself,but because as a MODERATOR u did not give me the same courtesy,so i'm doing the same. 

well i guess now its a good bye,i'm sure u might ban me or delete my account here,be my guest,i have nothing more to do here,and im asking u to DELETE my account because i can't do it myself to be honest..u are the mod,so u can.

thanks folks for the help.


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## Nononymous

You'd fit in well here. Perhaps a job with the BVG?


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## strawberries82

sorry if i made anyone uncomfortable,it wasn't my attention and i apoligize again for any misunderstanding.


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## James3214

Strawberries82, I will close the thread, but leave the posts on here as an example on how NOT to use the forum.


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