# Cheap Motor Homes, What's the Catch ???



## bambooo

Hi there Super sleuths !

Searching the internet for 'cheap motor homes I came across grandemercado.pt and found hundreds of nice looking motor homes for incredibly cheap prices in various locations throughout Portugal starting from as little as 3500 Euros for one that would cost 10x that amount in the UK and the rest of Europe .

Not sure if I'm allowed to put this link or not but if it's posted take a look 
Laika modelo Creo 3008 - Autocaravanas em Coimbra

Has anyone seen these for sale in Portugal ? I have seen photos online with sales yards that are in the Coimbra area , I'm sure someone out there will have seen them too !

I am a great believer in 'if it seems to good to be true it usually is' and this certainly seems to be !

Thanks


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## canoeman

As you say cheap maybe recession hitting motorcaravan trade, but anything that cheap needs very careful investigation, what did strike me was number plates don't appear to be Portuguese 

Suggest you look at Standvirtual - O Nº1 em Carros Usados, Carros Baratos and compare


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## bambooo

Hi there canoeman !
Cant really say about the number plates , on all the pics I have seen of these they all seem to be blocked out .

I recently spoke with one vendor and he said that he would bring it to anywhere I wanted and if I was happy with everything then we would go to a Notary to arrange the paperwork and then pay with a bankers cheque and not cash .

It's possible that these are all ex-hire motor homes as most of them are around the same age and 1 registered owner , 

Certainly seems like a good deal if it's legit ! and I shall find out mid January as by then at long last I should be in PT 

Thanks


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## Tellus

....be sure that* your *Notary will do all paperwork..:fingerscrossed:


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## canoeman

Change of ownership and new registration of new owner of any vehicle is done at the Conservatoria or online, not at a Notary.


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## bambooo

Hi canoeman !

Yeah I'm thinking maybe he means go to the Notary for a 'deed of sale' and then register at the Conservatoria or online afterwards , I just have visions of handing over the cheque and then the vendor calls the Police and reports it stolen ! that would be just my luck ;-)


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## canoeman

No such thing as a Deed of Sale for a vehicle unless you want to add unnecessary expense, a receipt of sale and purchase detailing seller, buyer, vehicle is quite sufficient.

Conservatoria is the central body where all manner of things are registered from property, planes, boats, Wills and vehicles, in the case of vehicles they also notify Financas that you are now owner of a vehicle, registration number etc which is then registered by Financas against your NIF number for IUC (road tax) something that you need to check is/has been paid up to date of the current year

Personally I'd be more concerned about someone bringing a vehicle to me and not then really knowing whom I'd bought from and any guarantee supplied had validity


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## Tellus

Well, I know that a used Laika 3008 has its price f.i. 35.000 E
Laika Angebote bei mobile.de

if a dealer calls 3.500E, than for me it 's more than a bit fishy


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## In 2 bikes

can't be right surely ? I looked and as someone who nearly spent 80,000 euros on a campervan instead of buying the house I live in, I'm convinced something isn't quite square with this website, but it might be my misinterpretation of the adverts.


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## canoeman

maybe they simply put decimal point in wrong place and it should be 35.000,00 which is Portugal's way of writing 35,000.00


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## travelling-man

Looking at the grandemercado.pt site, there's either some simply incredible bargains there or there's something dodgy about the whole thing. 

I found a 2013 BMW motorcycle with just 9500 kms on the clock for €1900 and in the UK, where bikes usually cost significantly less a similar machine costs something in the region of £10k

http://motas.grandemercado.pt/coimbra/motas-honda/moto-2013-bmw-s1000rr-1045368.htm 

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classif...e/featured-listing/dealer-id/281252/usedbikes


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## siobhanwf

Friends who are currently searching for a motorhome in the UK go to viewing with a damp test meter. So far ALL he has looked at have failed the test


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## bambooo

canoeman said:


> maybe they simply put decimal point in wrong place and it should be 35.000,00 which is Portugal's way of writing 35,000.00


Hi canoeman !
Yes that is a possibility , I have seen that before with land size on an advertisement , 56000 m2 instead of 5600 !

It could also be a problem with the script on Grandmercado website as it would be virtually impossible for all of these vendors to make the same mistake .

What I also find strange is that they are all in the Coimbra,Arganil,Oliveira do Hospital area's , if there are so many of these for sale surely someone would have seen the location ?

Well I have just sent off about 10 requests for more info from different Vendors and will let you know what I get back 

Thanks


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## canoeman

There are 2 motorcaravans dealers as you leave Coimbra going north on N1 just before junction with A1 names?


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## bambooo

Hi Canoeman !
That's probably where some of these are at , in some of the ads you can see part of the names of the companies but unfortunately not all !!!

Cheers


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## DREAMWEAVER1

I suspect the prices are correct and that the motor homes are not Portuguese registered,maybe French,obviously to matriculate would substantially increase the cost,I have requested registration confirmation,let's see if my request provides an answer.



David


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## bambooo

Hi Dreamweaver !
Good point , and one of the Vendors I have spoken with is French , but surely at these prices it would be worth re-registering it in Portugal if that is possible , even if it made the price double !

Cheers


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## DREAMWEAVER1

Bamboo,

To matriculate a vehicle would more than double the cost of any of those motorhomes priced at €3500.00,I believe they formulate the matriculation costs based on the original purchase cost of the vehicle,but good luck anyway.




David


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## canoeman

One of them shows up quite clearly on Google Earth
40 16'8.40"N 8 26'35.45"W


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## bambooo

Hi there !
So this is the Vendor I have spoken with in the past , look at the email address , definitely French ! but would it really be a problem ?

Autostar Aryal ano 2007 - Autocaravanas em Castelo Branco

Cheers !


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## canoeman

gmail.com can be anywhere


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## travelling-man

bambooo said:


> Hi there !
> So this is the Vendor I have spoken with in the past , look at the email address , definitely French ! but would it really be a problem ?
> 
> Autostar Aryal ano 2007 - Autocaravanas em Castelo Branco
> 
> Cheers !


It's a problem here if the vehicle has a French registration but if it does, it begs the question of why not sell it in France?


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## travelling-man

2 ads here with the same pic and description but 2 different prices, 2 different names and 2 different areas so some ads at least should be treated with a high degree of caution. 

I also note other ads begin with phrases such as "Hello my dear" which has the stink of those dodgy spam emails one gets from countries such as Nigeria. 

Mota 2013 BMW S1000RR - Motas | BMW em Aveiro 

Moto 2013 BMW S1000RR - Motas | BMW em Lisboa 

I'm not suggesting all the ads are hooky though.


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## bambooo

canoeman said:


> One of them shows up quite clearly on Google Earth
> 40 16'8.40"N 8 26'35.45"W


Yep you sure can here Rua da Barraca, Coimbra, Portugal
Looks definately like a sales yard so maybe these are legit !


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## bambooo

Hi there !
So here is a reply I just had from a ' David Costa' who's email address is <[email protected]> very similar to the French Guy I have already spoken with earlier this year [email protected] dont you think ?

Reply translated to English using Google :
Hello Mr., thanks for your response, Mobile Home Bürstner AVIANO Nordic P 684 2009
is still available for sale at 3500 euros,
all these documents are up to date she has never had an accident,
I also sent these recent photos
which zone you live?
tell me the place to show you the car
I hope the address to bring the car because I did not want you to come with me
I prefer a public place for the business
then shows me the place of delivery as follows:
your full name
your number
delivery address
Delivery Time
I hope your quick response
greetings

And the original message :

Olá sr, obrigado pela sua resposta, a Autocaravana Bürstner AVIANO Nordic P 684 2009
ainda está disponível para venda em 3500 de euros,
todos estes documentos estão em dia ela nunca teve um acidente,
Eu também enviou essas fotos recentes
que zona você mora?
diga-me o lugar para mostrar-lhe o carro
Espero o endereço para trazer o carro, porque eu não quero que você venha comigo
Eu prefiro um lugar público para o negocio
entao indica me o lugar de entrega desta forma :
o vosso nome completo
o vosso número
morada de entrega
hora de entrega
espero a vossa resposta rápida
cumprimentos

And this particular Motor home is here :

Bürstner AVIANO Nordic P 684 2009 - Autocaravanas em Leiria

Not sure what to make of it now but I am not happy with wanting to meet in a 'public' place and also giving my home details , maybe the scam is whilst they are meeting with you someone is robbing your house ?


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## Maggy Crawford

Good old Google translate, beloved of professional translators like me. NOT! "Hope" here should be "await". (Same verb in Portuguese)


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## bambooo

Hi Maggy !
Yes Google translate is not perfect but I think it's pretty easy to get the message , and it's handy when you have not got a professional translator at hand ;-)

Cheers !


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## canoeman

I'd drop it like a hot potato no legit seller would want to do business in a public place at a price that is obviously suspect

the dealer i gave GPS co-ordinates to my knowledge has been there over 10 years and restaurant next door is very good and generally packed


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## travelling-man

It could also be plain old ID theft.


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## robc

bambooo said:


> Hi there.................................................
> 
> 
> Not sure what to make of it now but I am not happy with wanting to meet in a 'public' place and also giving my home details , maybe the scam is whilst they are meeting with you someone is robbing your house ?


I would run away and keep running away for a while. Then stop, rest a bit and run some more.

This has all the hallmarks of very dodgy, the old adage, "if it is too good to be true then it usually is"............. really applies here

Rob


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## travelling-man

The more ads I look at, the more dodgy deals I find....... A VERY significant percentage of cars and motorcycles offered are just a fraction of their real values so I reckon there's a lot of people with hidden agendas on there trolling for personal info.


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## bambooo

travelling-man said:


> The more ads I look at, the more dodgy deals I find....... A VERY significant percentage of cars and motorcycles offered are just a fraction of their real values so I reckon there's a lot of people with hidden agendas on there trolling for personal info.


Hi travelling-man !
Yep it sure does seem that way and they are all asking for personal info upfront !

I asked the vendor this question about meeting in a public place 

"Hi David!
This all seems very unusual for me, maybe we can meet
outside the police station in Castello Branco, would this be acceptable
for you?"

Thank you

And this is the 'translated reply I got when asking the Vendor to meet outside Castello Branco Police Station "

"ok, the car is Portuguese,
actually received your address, delivery will be for Tuesday is 16:30
by personal reason, I could not see myself show you the car, I will send my driver because I have my very sick woman therefore I'm currently in a clinic with my wife, therefore is my driver that will bring -ve vehicle
I hope it does not bother them?
all car documents are already with the driver, therefore when they will arrive, you will well control the car, control documents, and all is right for you, you will make the payment, then want to prepare for Euro 3500 payment,
I hope your quick response and also'll want to return me your phone number"

And the original reply for anyone wishing to disect it !
"ok,o carro é o Português ,
efectivamente recebi o vosso endereço, a entrega será para a terça-feira tem 16:30
por razão pessoal, eu não poderia vir eu mesmo mostrar-vos o automóvel, vou enviar o meu motorista, porque tenho a minha mulher muito doente por conseguinte atualmente mim estou numa clínica com a minha mulher, por conseguinte é o meu motorista que vai trazer-vos o veículo
espero que aquilo não os incomoda?
todos os documentos do automóvel estão já com o motorista, por conseguinte quando vai chegar, voce vai bem controlar o automóvel, controlar os documentos, e se todo for correto para vocês, voce vai proceder ao pagamento, entao quererá preparar os 3500 euros para o pagamento,
espero a vossa resposta rápida e também quererei retornar-me o vosso número de telefone"

All seems very strange indeed and certainly a ' Hot Potato '

Canoe-man 
Any idea of the prices of similar models at the place you sent the GPS for in Coimbra , just for comparison ?

Cheers


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## canoeman

Stand Virtual Venda Autocaravanas, Autocaravanas Usadas e Comprar Standvirtual is a useful guide to what's on sale or OLX http://www.olx.pt/autocaravanas-roulotes-reboques-cat-417 both legit sites, loking at GPS & standvirual this is company

João Paulo Cardoso
Campilusa
Rua da Barraca 26
3020-923 Coimbra


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## bambooo

Hi Canoe man !
Yes the prices certainly seem more like what you would expect for this type of vehicle .

Here is a 'translated copy of another reply from a different vendor , but the 'MO' seems to be the same !

Hi;
I am the Pedro Maria the owner of this dethleffs integrated Mobile In ESPRIT 6700 Alde registration is Portuguese It is still available for sale at the price advertised on the website 3500 euros. the vehicle is Portuguese, is to buy a shop selling vehicle sales in Portugal, then the vehicle is national, and the documents are order and all legal, the vehicle is always in safe, then all is ready, not history after the business
She not there are technical problems, the technical inspection is regular and
the service book is is atualizado.Tudos these documents are available.
You do not have more costs to provide.
the motorhome is not a rugged camper.

I'm selling because I no longer use, it is now in my garage at home Mihna

If you are interested, please confirm me and I tell my driver
you deliver the car to your home. and so, you see the car, drive the car and examine these documents
You have nothing to pay for the delivery of the motorhome for your home
YOU LIVE IN THAT AREA? THEN MY DRIVER WILL YOU BRING THE VEHICLE IN YOUR AREA

Upon arrival the driver with the camper in your address, you will try motorhome
Hang Time 3h to control the motor, examine the documents and also to sign the document
change of name; the sales contract and the rest of the documents
If this condition is right for you, please give me your address for motorhome delivery to your home or a public space
Payment will be made by check, without payment of liquidity because of security so
I await your address to the driver you provide the motorhome, because I'm
trip, so it is with my driver who will manage everything with you, so everything will be fine


Important: I will not send all the documents of my motorhome over the Internet, will not send too
the serial number (registration) over the internet. so if you really want to buy my motorhome, you give your address
and my driver will bring you to the motorhome and you will make all the controls in the presence of my driver
is very simple
Thank you

I am pretty sure there is some kind of 'Scam' behind this but if so do you not think that someone would have heard of the 'Motorhome' scam and if no one has heard of it why would they be advertising so many vehicles for what would be a small return ???

Cheers


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## canoeman

Well your helping scam by replying to adverts, they can still pick up information from your email address 

Be better to report the site to probably ANACOM ANACOM - ANACOM - Autoridade Nacional de Comunicações who I believe to be regulator


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## bambooo

Hi Canoe man !
Well I understand the risk of replying but unless someone does then we would never know about a possible scam , and I for one feel better informed and hopefully anyone else reading this thread will be too before making a rash decision and losing money !

Cheers !


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## JohnBoy

A scam for sure, but what? I can't wait for the next instalment.


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## travelling-man

One has to wonder whether the entire site is dodgy or if it's a legitimate site that has been hijacked by spammers but if the latter, one then has to wonder why they don't do the same thing on olx and others.


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## canoeman

Cost? to me it seems as if the site is deliberately set up that way and should be avoided


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## bambooo

Hi there !

A 'whois' search shows that it is a Portuguese registered website/Company and has been since 2008 and registered in Santarem !

Nome de domínio / Domain Name: grandemercado.pt
Data de registo / Creation Date (dd/mm/yyyy): 04/12/2008
Data de expiração / Expiration Date (dd/mm/yyyy): 01/03/2015
Estado / Status: ACTIVE
Titular / Registrant
Mesna-Consultores de gestão e novas tecnologias, Lda
Av. Dr. Roberto Ferreira da Fonseca 35,1a
Salvaterra de Magos
2120-115 Santarem
102
Titular / Registrant
Mesna-Consultores de gestão e novas tecnologias, Lda
Av. Dr. Roberto Ferreira da Fonseca 35,1a
Salvaterra de Magos
2120-115 Santarem
Email: [email protected]


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## wink

Definitely a scam! The vehicles are probably stolen and the paperwork forged. The only way to check is to insist that you take the paperwork to the conservatoire, they will tell you if it is genuine and if there is any outstanding finance on the vehicle. The driver will probably refuse as he will urgently need to get back home to his sick granny/wife/child/cat etc.


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## JohnBoy

I don't think they're stolen Wink. There are too many and so publicly advertised that even the PT Police would be able to detect the crime.

It's a scam for sure but the how and what still has me totally puzzled.


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## travelling-man

I reckon they're simply after your personal details such as name, address and fiscal numbers etc for the purposes of identity theft then when you turn up to look at the vehicle, they just don't show up.


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## DREAMWEAVER1

Sounds plausible TM,either way,to be avoided at ALL costs





David


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