# Free healthcare / convenio especial availability



## The Skipper

I wonder how the government will fund this!

https://www.thinkspain.com/news-spa...are-free-and-universal-again-within-six-weeks


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## Pesky Wesky

The Skipper said:


> I wonder how the government will fund this!
> 
> https://www.thinkspain.com/news-spa...are-free-and-universal-again-within-six-weeks


Uhmm, cost is talked about in the article!


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## The Skipper

Pesky Wesky said:


> Uhmm, cost is talked about in the article!


Yes, I know, but does anyone really believe this can be done at zero cost?


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## littleweed

Hi,

Thank you for posting this interesting article. I don't see this is huge surprise since PSOE is simply returning to the (virtually) universal and foc system that existed prior to the 2012 reforms. The move was anticipated by the Generalitat of Valencia when the PSOE supplanted the PP a few years ago. Pretty much the first thing they did was announce free healthcare to all residents. So as a policy, this was well established. 

There will be a cost but probably not has high as people might expect. The latest figure for coverage that I can find quickly is for 2010 when the Defensor Del Pueblo stated that 99.4 of the population had foc access to the system. I don't image the figure has changed that much but would be interested to see the current figure post 2012. So we probably talking about a 0.6% of the healthcare budget less the costs of the old system, emergency care (still free) post 2012 etc etc. 

So very good news.


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## Megsmum

Will this bring the end of needing private healthcare etc.?


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## Lynn R

Megsmum said:


> Will this bring the end of needing private healthcare etc.?


Yes, that's what I was thinking. How could people registering as foreign residents be required to show that they have adequate healthcare if it is to be available to everyone resident in the country? Although when we arrived in 2006, we had the old residual S1 forms from the UK which gave us entitlement to Spanish public healthcare for two years, but if we'd not had those we wouldn't have been eligible to register for tarjeta sanitarias and would have needed private healthcare because we were neither working nor in receipt of a pension, as indeed we did have to have once our two year S1s had expired. In those days you didn't have to prove you had the health cover to be able to register, but that didn't mean that you could just trot along to the centro de salud and register with a doctor.


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## littleweed

Megsmum said:


> Will this bring the end of needing private healthcare etc.?


I think that we'll have to wait for the detail, however having read bit more about this I'm now not so optimistic. The new Health Minister is Carmen Montón who previously held the same post in the Generalitat of Valencia. A law was passed in there in 2015 (Ley 3) advertised as restoring universal health care. However, in fact it was much more limited that since it just restored access to health care to small group (illegal immigrants) who had that benefit removed by Rajoy's 2012 reforms. So this could be just the same.


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## baldilocks

Don't forget that the OP's article is just another forum's take on the subject and carries no weight in law


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## The Skipper

baldilocks said:


> Don't forget that the OP's article is just another forum's take on the subject and carries no weight in law


The Spanish media is giving widespread coverage to the story as well:
La Sanidad gratuita a extranjeros le costará a España 1.100 millones al año - elEconomista.es


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## mrypg9

The Skipper said:


> I wonder how the government will fund this!
> 
> https://www.thinkspain.com/news-spa...are-free-and-universal-again-within-six-weeks


I have a novel idea.....tax the wealthy and crack down on tax evasion.

Nah, too utopian


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## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> I have a novel idea.....tax the wealthy and crack down on tax evasion.
> 
> Nah, too utopian


Full marx


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## The Skipper

mrypg9 said:


> I have a novel idea.....tax the wealthy and crack down on tax evasion.
> 
> Nah, too utopian


Nothing novel about that idea ... I´ve heard it suggested a thousand times before. I can even recall a British Labour chancellor saying he was going to “tax the rich until the pips squeak.” It somehow never seems to work!


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## Megsmum

Lynn R said:


> Yes, that's what I was thinking. How could people registering as foreign residents be required to show that they have adequate healthcare if it is to be available to everyone resident in the country? Although when we arrived in 2006, we had the old residual S1 forms from the UK which gave us entitlement to Spanish public healthcare for two years, but if we'd not had those we wouldn't have been eligible to register for tarjeta sanitarias and would have needed private healthcare because we were neither working nor in receipt of a pension, as indeed we did have to have once our two year S1s had expired. In those days you didn't have to prove you had the health cover to be able to register, but that didn't mean that you could just trot along to the centro de salud and register with a doctor.


We too had the S1 forms, in fact, we were some of the final people to apply, they stopped in March 2014 we received ours in February 2014:tongue1: it was one of the reasons we brought the move forward, two years free healthcare not to be sniffed at. Although by the time we came healthcare was, indeed, part of residency requirements. I had issues when applying for private healthcare hence I’m autonomo, expensive way of getting healthcare, but as we had already budgeted fairly highly for PH, with working and what was in the budget we can manage, can’t put a price on healthcare.


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## Lynn R

Megsmum said:


> We too had the S1 forms, in fact, we were some of the final people to apply, they stopped in March 2014 we received ours in February 2014:tongue1: it was one of the reasons we brought the move forward, two years free healthcare not to be sniffed at. Although by the time we came healthcare was, indeed, part of residency requirements. I had issues when applying for private healthcare hence I’m autonomo, expensive way of getting healthcare, but as we had already budgeted fairly highly for PH, with working and what was in the budget we can manage, can’t put a price on healthcare.


You certainly can't. I know people who decided to "wing it" after their residual S1s expired, or never registered as residents in the first place and just relied on EHICs, I would have been too worried about what might happen to do that. I just got out of hospital yesterday after heart surgery (including 8 days in intensive care), a few years ago I would never have dreamed I might need that.


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## xabiaxica

baldilocks said:


> Don't forget that the OP's article is just another forum's take on the subject and carries no weight in law





The Skipper said:


> The Spanish media is giving widespread coverage to the story as well:
> La Sanidad gratuita a extranjeros le costará a España 1.100 millones al año - elEconomista.es


Yes, it isn't a forum, but a news & info website.

iirc they mostly translate items from the Spanish Press.


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## xabiaxica

Lynn R said:


> You certainly can't. I know people who decided to "wing it" after their residual S1s expired, or never registered as residents in the first place and just relied on EHICs, I would have been too worried about what might happen to do that. * I just got out of hospital yesterday after heart surgery *(including 8 days in intensive care), a few years ago I would never have dreamed I might need that.


Wow - look after yourself


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## Pesky Wesky

Lynn R said:


> You certainly can't. I know people who decided to "wing it" after their residual S1s expired, or never registered as residents in the first place and just relied on EHICs, I would have been too worried about what might happen to do that. I just got out of hospital yesterday after heart surgery (including 8 days in intensive care), a few years ago I would never have dreamed I might need that.


Wow I remember when you first said that doctors found that you had problems with the heart and that you had had no idea, and now you've had surgery. Hope everything is Ok and that you're well on the way to recovery. Lots of good wishes,
PW


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## Lynn R

Thanks very much for the good wishes. I was warned beforehand by the surgeon that I would feel very weak afterwards but it still doesn't really prepare you for the reality, somehow. Still, I am feeling a little bit stronger each day so hopefully going in the right direction. Not helped by the fact that I developed atrial fibrillation after the surgery (very common, apparently) so had to stay in CUI on an external pacemaker for much longer than anticipated, so could not start mobilising as soon as I should have which of course makes it harder when you can eventually start. Being confined to either a bed or an armchair next to the bed for 8 days is no fun at all. Nothing but praise for the doctors, nurses, auxiliary nurses and all the other staff, cleanliness or the facilities. Didn't care for some of the food but I wasn't terribly interested in eating for a lot of the time anyway.


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## Megsmum

Lynn R said:


> You certainly can't. I know people who decided to "wing it" after their residual S1s expired, or never registered as residents in the first place and just relied on EHICs, I would have been too worried about what might happen to do that. I just got out of hospital yesterday after heart surgery (including 8 days in intensive care), a few years ago I would never have dreamed I might need that.


Wishing you speedy full recovery. 

Yep, In the four years we have been here, my husband has required two operations, I too was diagnosed with a minor heart problem, resolved now thankfully but on medication. 

I personally think that many people run fast and loose with their health cover, with phrases like, I've never been to the Drs or I'm usually very fit and that old favorite, I'll go back to UK

We were all fit until we weren't  head-on car accident, falling over, how the &$#$&* you going to go back to the UK


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## baldilocks

Good luck, Lynn, glad to hear that you are much better.

Yes I'm grateful for the medical services here in Andalucía. Two years ago, I had a pain in my chest that would not go away, I was also short of breath. Local hospital did scans, decided that, to start with, I had pneumonia (brought on, I think, by very heavy pollen) plus there was a suspicious mass in my right lung (Ooops, one thinks, is it Big C ?)

Transferred to the pneumology department in Granada, many tests and scans (it gets quite boring inside those machines.) They started carrying out tests. Trying to get a sample of "the lump" proved unsuccessful, so they decided that they had better see how well I might fare if they had to remove part or all of my right lung (scary ) When they got me to do walking tests, I was all right at a fairly slow to moderate speed but when they wanted me to go a little faster, I got angina. Stop, Stop, Stop. Send me home and bring me in later for another attempt at getting a sample of the lump but, this time, by going in from the outside. In the machine, which runs up, they start looking at what is the current state of the lump, but it has moved and shrunk a bit. Stop again.

They decided that the "lump" was probably a mass from the pneumonia and will probably disperse on its own, in any case trying a biopsy from the outside was now out of the question since it would have collapsed my lung.

Fast forward 9 months to March of last year and I am having breathing difficulties and mild angina. GP decided to send for an ambulance to take me in to the local hospital. I had mild angina for most of the day. At 11.30pm I have the most excruciating pains in my chest and in my upper arms. Fortunately I had the panic button just tucked under my pillow and I hit it. I was immediately given an injection that stopped the pain and got me working a bit more normally and I was transferred (same ambulance and same nurse as before) to the UCI (oothie as they call it!) in Granada. Specialist eventually does a cardiac catheter and decides that since I have already had a bypass and two stents (all of which are now blocked,) nothing can be done so send me home.

My GP, by sending me into hospital when he did, probably saved my life. I now have a treadmill to enable me to exercise in all weathers, even in the heat (with the A/C on) in an attempt to encourage my body to develop new blood vessels to feed my heart.


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## Lynn R

baldilocks said:


> Good luck, Lynn, glad to hear that you are much better.
> 
> Yes I'm grateful for the medical services here in Andalucía. Two years ago, I had a pain in my chest that would not go away, I was also short of breath. Local hospital did scans, decided that, to start with, I had pneumonia (brought on, I think, by very heavy pollen) plus there was a suspicious mass in my right lung (Ooops, one thinks, is it Big C ?)
> 
> Transferred to the pneumology department in Granada, many tests and scans (it gets quite boring inside those machines.) They started carrying out tests. Trying to get a sample of "the lump" proved unsuccessful, so they decided that they had better see how well I might fare if they had to remove part or all of my right lung (scary ) When they got me to do walking tests, I was all right at a fairly slow to moderate speed but when they wanted me to go a little faster, I got angina. Stop, Stop, Stop. Send me home and bring me in later for another attempt at getting a sample of the lump but, this time, by going in from the outside. In the machine, which runs up, they start looking at what is the current state of the lump, but it has moved and shrunk a bit. Stop again.
> 
> They decided that the "lump" was probably a mass from the pneumonia and will probably disperse on its own, in any case trying a biopsy from the outside was now out of the question since it would have collapsed my lung.
> 
> Fast forward 9 months to March of last year and I am having breathing difficulties and mild angina. GP decided to send for an ambulance to take me in to the local hospital. I had mild angina for most of the day. At 11.30pm I have the most excruciating pains in my chest and in my upper arms. Fortunately I had the panic button just tucked under my pillow and I hit it. I was immediately given an injection that stopped the pain and got me working a bit more normally and I was transferred (same ambulance and same nurse as before) to the UCI (oothie as they call it!) in Granada. Specialist eventually does a cardiac catheter and decides that since I have already had a bypass and two stents (all of which are now blocked,) nothing can be done so send me home.
> 
> My GP, by sending me into hospital when he did, probably saved my life. I now have a treadmill to enable me to exercise in all weathers, even in the heat (with the A/C on) in an attempt to encourage my body to develop new blood vessels to feed my heart.


My goodness, you have really been through the mill. I hope they are right and you can develop the new blood vessels.

The kind of treatment you and I have had (although I used my private health insurance to pay for mine on the basis that as we were paying the premiums we might as well get something for it, but I'm sure the treatment in the public health service would have been just as good) just shows what kind of financial commitment the Spanish Government could be letting itself in for if it did make universal healthcare available to all foreigners living in the country (which is what it said in the El Economista article linked to above). At a time when the Government is having to make a "loan" to Social Security to enable pensions to be paid, this move does seem a bit strange, but I guess we just have to wait and see.


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## Michael Kelly

My american friend who is here illegally for the last ten years has a public health card and recently had to spend over 2 weeks in hospital. She received great care and I was surprised how modern the facilities were.


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## Pesky Wesky

I have had to make use of a local hospital recently. I say a local hospital because I actually had a choice of 3 for my particular ailment ( nothing dramatic, broken bone in foot) . Treatment received so far I would say very good although the emergency room could have been better. For example I was already having the cast put on before a doctor had explained what I had done... A friend of mine was in hospital ( different one ) recently for 3 weeks was very ill and she is a complicated case. Her treatment was excellent, the team of doctors very much in contact and the room was huge, clean and with sofa bed for a companion


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## Pesky Wesky

baldilocks said:


> Good luck, Lynn, glad to hear that you are much better.
> 
> Yes I'm grateful for the medical services here in Andalucía. Two years ago, I had a pain in my chest that would not go away, I was also short of breath. Local hospital did scans, decided that, to start with, I had pneumonia (brought on, I think, by very heavy pollen) plus there was a suspicious mass in my right lung (Ooops, one thinks, is it Big C ?)
> 
> Transferred to the pneumology department in Granada, many tests and scans (it gets quite boring inside those machines.) They started carrying out tests. Trying to get a sample of "the lump" proved unsuccessful, so they decided that they had better see how well I might fare if they had to remove part or all of my right lung (scary ) When they got me to do walking tests, I was all right at a fairly slow to moderate speed but when they wanted me to go a little faster, I got angina. Stop, Stop, Stop. Send me home and bring me in later for another attempt at getting a sample of the lump but, this time, by going in from the outside. In the machine, which runs up, they start looking at what is the current state of the lump, but it has moved and shrunk a bit. Stop again.
> 
> They decided that the "lump" was probably a mass from the pneumonia and will probably disperse on its own, in any case trying a biopsy from the outside was now out of the question since it would have collapsed my lung.
> 
> Fast forward 9 months to March of last year and I am having breathing difficulties and mild angina. GP decided to send for an ambulance to take me in to the local hospital. I had mild angina for most of the day. At 11.30pm I have the most excruciating pains in my chest and in my upper arms. Fortunately I had the panic button just tucked under my pillow and I hit it. I was immediately given an injection that stopped the pain and got me working a bit more normally and I was transferred (same ambulance and same nurse as before) to the UCI (oothie as they call it!) in Granada. Specialist eventually does a cardiac catheter and decides that since I have already had a bypass and two stents (all of which are now blocked,) nothing can be done so send me home.
> 
> My GP, by sending me into hospital when he did, probably saved my life. I now have a treadmill to enable me to exercise in all weathers, even in the heat (with the A/C on) in an attempt to encourage my body to develop new blood vessels to feed my heart.


 Poor Baldi. Glad to hear you are satisfied with the care you are receiving though. Hope you are managing to keep your sunny disposition. Good luck with the recovery.
We seem to be a load of sickies recently...


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## Lynn R

Another thought just occurred to me - if the new Government really does mean to guarantee healthcare for ALL foreigners resident in Spain, then what need would there be for the Convenio Especial whereby people can pay to access public healthcare?


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## Michael Kelly

Lynn R said:


> Another thought just occurred to me - if the new Government really does mean to guarantee healthcare for ALL foreigners resident in Spain, then what need would there be for the Convenio Especial whereby people can pay to access public healthcare?


is this Convenio only for EU citizens? I had not heard about it before. In theory, EU citizens who are not working need private healthcare to live in Spain, however now people who do not register as EU citizens and just sign on the local padron will have access to the public healthcare system. Actually, this is already the case in Catalyuna.


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## Lynn R

Michael Kelly said:


> is this Convenio only for EU citizens? I had not heard about it before. In theory, EU citizens who are not working need private healthcare to live in Spain, however now people who do not register as EU citizens and just sign on the local padron will have access to the public healthcare system. Actually, this is already the case in Catalyuna.


No, it's not just for EU citizens - one of our forum members, Elyles, who is a US citizens, has posted that he and his wife access healthcare in Spain via the Convenio Especial. It costs €60 per person month for those aged up to 65 and €157 per month for those aged 65 and over. It does not include the cost of any medications, so involves paying 100% of the cost of those on top of the monthly contributions.

I have read elsewhere that Portugal now allows all residents, regardless of age or employment status, to register for state healthcare, so perhaps the new Spanish Government initiative will be similar to that?


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## Michael Kelly

Lynn R said:


> No, it's not just for EU citizens - one of our forum members, Elyles, who is a US citizens, has posted that he and his wife access healthcare in Spain via the Convenio Especial. It costs €60 per person month for those aged up to 65 and €157 per month for those aged 65 and over. It does not include the cost of any medications, so involves paying 100% of the cost of those on top of the monthly contributions.
> 
> I have read elsewhere that Portugal now allows all residents, regardless of age or employment status, to register for state healthcare, so perhaps the new Spanish Government initiative will be similar to that?


I suspect that this "new initiative" will just apply to people who do not have legal residence papers, legal residents will have to continue to pay. That's how things are in Catalyuna now.


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## Pesky Wesky

> QUOTE=Michael Kelly;14534800]I suspect that this "new initiative" will just apply to people who do not have legal residence papers, legal residents will have to continue to pay. That's how things are in Catalyuna now.


It's not a new initiative; it's something that's being reinstated after being taken away by the PP.
I would be cautious about celebration because it's only "in" as long as a government decides that it isn't any more which is what has happened before in the PSOE/ PP squabble and with places like Valencia who at one time won a lot of British immigrants for example by offering free healthcare until that was oveturned.


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## xabiaxica

Michael Kelly said:


> is this Convenio only for EU citizens? I had not heard about it before. In theory, EU citizens who are not working need private healthcare to live in Spain, however now people who do not register as EU citizens and just sign on the local padron will have access to the public healthcare system. Actually, this is already the case in Catalyuna.


It was reinstated in Valencia too a few years ago, but Madrid made the Valencian PSOE stop offering it alsmost as soon as they started.


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## Michael Kelly

xabiachica said:


> It was reinstated in Valencia too a few years ago, but Madrid made the Valencian PSOE stop offering it alsmost as soon as they started.


In Catalyuna they just ignore whatever Madrid says


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## Lynn R

I think this paragraph from the El Economista article which The Skipper provided a link to earlier makes it clear that just restoring the right to healthcare for the "sin papeles" is not the only option on the cards:-

"Si el Gobierno devuelve ahora la tarjeta sanitaria a los inmigrantes irregulares, el Ejecutivo deberá preparar una partida de 500 millones anuales, si se toma el coste que tenía la atención sanitaria a los ciudadanos sin papeles en 2012. Si el Ejecutivo decide además extender la tarjeta sanitaria a todos los europeos residentes en España -como eliminó la reforma del PP- este gasto subiría otros 600 millones anuales. Y es que la partida anual que el Estado dedicaba a la atención sanitaria a extranjeros de países europeos ascendía a 1.000 millones anuales. De esa cantidad, nuestro país intentaba recuperar posteriormente el dinero gastado por ciudadanos de países con los que España tenía acuerdo de colaboración."

If they went for the option of extending it to all european residents in Spain, though, might that still exclude UK citizens post-Brexit, or maybe not if there is still a Spain/UK reciprocal agreement?

I'll certainly be keeping a lookout for any further details being announced in a few weeks' time.


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## Michael Kelly

Lynn R said:


> I think this paragraph from the El Economista article which The Skipper provided a link to earlier makes it clear that just restoring the right to healthcare for the "sin papeles" is not the only option on the cards:-
> 
> "Si el Gobierno devuelve ahora la tarjeta sanitaria a los inmigrantes irregulares, el Ejecutivo deberá preparar una partida de 500 millones anuales, si se toma el coste que tenía la atención sanitaria a los ciudadanos sin papeles en 2012. Si el Ejecutivo decide además extender la tarjeta sanitaria a todos los europeos residentes en España -como eliminó la reforma del PP- este gasto subiría otros 600 millones anuales. Y es que la partida anual que el Estado dedicaba a la atención sanitaria a extranjeros de países europeos ascendía a 1.000 millones anuales. De esa cantidad, nuestro país intentaba recuperar posteriormente el dinero gastado por ciudadanos de países con los que España tenía acuerdo de colaboración."
> 
> If they went for the option of extending it to all european residents in Spain, though, might that still exclude UK citizens post-Brexit, or maybe not if there is still a Spain/UK reciprocal agreement?
> 
> I'll certainly be keeping a lookout for any further details being announced in a few weeks' time.


Thanks, this is useful information. Pots-Brexit might yet be a long time away so this is of great interest to all.


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## Pesky Wesky

xabiachica said:


> It was reinstated in Valencia too a few years ago, but Madrid made the Valencian PSOE stop offering it alsmost as soon as they started.





Michael Kelly said:


> In Catalyuna they just ignore whatever Madrid says


Just like to point out that Madrid itself does nothing one way or the other, it's the government. The talk of "Madrid" just stokes the fires of those who prefer to see the great divide between Catal*onia* and the rest of Spain get wider.
I know it's being nitpicky, but language is used for specific aims


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## Michael Kelly

Pesky Wesky said:


> Just like to point out that Madrid itself does nothing one way or the other, it's the government. The talk of "Madrid" just stokes the fires of those who prefer to see the great divide between Catal*onia* and the rest of Spain get wider.


In Catal*yuna*,"Madr*it*" stands for "El Gobierno Espanyol". "El Govern" (The Government) means the Generalitat.


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## Pesky Wesky

Michael Kelly said:


> In Catal*yuna*,"Madr*it*" stands for "El Gobierno Espanyol". "El Govern" (The Government) means the Generalitat.


Yes I realise that for most Catalans the state government = Madrid, but in reality it doesn't. (I used to live in Valls, Tarragona)
Also it annoys me when Catalunya is used when writing in English when there is a perfectly servicible term in English which is Catalonia.
I realise that it's probably being a bit over the top for most people, but sometimes I just have to say it!:tongue1:


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## Maureen47

The comments on the eleconomista article are interesting to see the views of the Spanish people


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## Gregorians

The Skipper said:


> I wonder how the government will fund this!
> 
> https://www.thinkspain.com/news-spa...are-free-and-universal-again-within-six-weeks


Best call the Maybot for some advice which was written on the side of buses. Except it turned out to be lies.


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## toddamparo

Pesky Wesky said:


> Uhmm, cost is talked about in the article!


my wife is spanish from valencia without healthcare here in the usa. we had seriously thought about having her go back to spain for few months for some medical issues. I understand that as a spanish national, she is eligible the minute she sets foot in spain. Can someone confirm?


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## Michael Kelly

toddamparo said:


> my wife is spanish from valencia without healthcare here in the usa. we had seriously thought about having her go back to spain for few months for some medical issues. I understand that as a spanish national, she is eligible the minute she sets foot in spain. Can someone confirm?


Did she deregister when she moved to the USA?


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## xabiaxica

toddamparo said:


> my wife is spanish from valencia without healthcare here in the usa. we had seriously thought about having her go back to spain for few months for some medical issues. I understand that as a spanish national, she is eligible the minute she sets foot in spain. Can someone confirm?


Pretty much. 

She needs to re-establish residency, but that's more or less just a case of registering on the padrón. 




Michael Kelly said:


> Did she deregister when she moved to the USA?


That doesn't really matter.


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## Lynn R

I recall that one of our members, AllHeart, moved here from Canada after acquiring Spanish citizenship via family descent (a Spanish father, I think). She was definitely able to access Spanish public healthcare as soon as she arrived here. Toddamparo could probably search for her posts on the subject.


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## booksurfer

mrypg9 said:


> I have a novel idea.....tax the wealthy and crack down on tax evasion.


The only problem with that is, the people who make and pass the laws are the wealthy tax evaders.

After all, turkeys don't vote for christmas do they?


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## littleweed

toddamparo said:


> my wife is spanish from valencia without healthcare here in the usa. we had seriously thought about having her go back to spain for few months for some medical issues. I understand that as a spanish national, she is eligible the minute she sets foot in spain. Can someone confirm?


Hi,

I believe this used the case - there was a system informally know as prorroga which allowed administrators to grant temporary health cards for 6 months. For up to date info maybe worth contacting this govt organisation dedicated to Spaniards returning to their homeland;

Oficina de Retorno. Portal de la Ciudadanía Española en el Exterior

There's a linkto a guide for "retornados" (returners) with a section on health care. This mentions a Convenio Especial which you can sign up for with the Seguridad Social which covers health care but also pensions etc. The last figure I can find is for 2010 when it was 160 euros per month.

Fraid this not a simple answer to your question but I hope it points you in the right direction.Good luck.


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## Lynn R

This was the thread started by the forum member (AllHeart) which I referred to earlier, explaining how she was able to register for public healthcare as a Spanish citizen.

https://www.expatforum.com/expats/s.../574457-am-i-covered-public-healthcare-2.html


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## victoriagl

*Spain offers free healthcare*

Has anyone else seen this? Spain is going to offer free health care to everyone no matter of legal status. It should be happening by the end of the month. The thing is when I look it up only one English newspaper is reporting on it and the rest of the reports are saying it is for illegal migrants only. Anyone know any details on this one?

saw it in the round town news.

Thanks all for any advice you can give.


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## Rabbitcat

I would imagine it's strictly for certain groupings and so it should be 

As a foreigner ( non pensioner) I respect fully that I must row my own boat and pay for private care


https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-s...healthcare-for-illegal-migrants-idUKKBN1JB1PW


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## xabiaxica

victoriagl said:


> Has anyone else seen this? Spain is going to offer free health care to everyone no matter of legal status. It should be happening by the end of the month. The thing is when I look it up only one English newspaper is reporting on it and the rest of the reports are saying it is for illegal migrants only. Anyone know any details on this one?
> 
> saw it in the round town news.
> 
> Thanks all for any advice you can give.


:welcome:

I've moved your post to a thread where we're already discussing this


----------



## victoriagl

xabiachica said:


> :welcome:
> 
> I've moved your post to a thread where we're already discussing this


Hello Thank you


----------



## Alcalaina

Rabbitcat said:


> I would imagine it's strictly for certain groupings and so it should be
> 
> As a foreigner ( non pensioner) I respect fully that I must row my own boat and pay for private care
> 
> 
> https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-s...healthcare-for-illegal-migrants-idUKKBN1JB1PW


Yes, the PSOE government are restoring free healthcare for undocumented immigrants who are "sin recursos" (i.e. don't have any income). This right was removed by the PP a few years ago but in practice, most doctors refused to deny treatment to people who clearly needed it.


----------



## littleweed

*Progress on Universal Healthcare*

Hi,
Just a quick update for those interested in recent reports of the new Governments intention to restore universal healthcare, A draft of the proposed legislation has been published and circulated to the autonomous communities who will have the responsibility of implementing it. From this draft it looks like it is the governments intention to include foreigners legally resident in Spain in the system (as well as undocumented immigrants as had been previously expected). This is confirmed by the media stories I've seen. Here's the key passage (Article 1);

"Son titulares de los derechos al la proteccion de la salud y al la proteccion sanitaria todos los espanoles y ciudanos extranjeros que tengan establicida su residencia legal en el territorio espanol".

The following page has a link to the full text (el borrador del decreto)

https://www.redaccionmedica.com/sec...erio-para-recuperar-la-sanidad-universal-9918
:clap2:


----------



## Lynn R

littleweed said:


> Hi,
> Just a quick update for those interested in recent reports of the new Governments intention to restore universal healthcare, A draft of the proposed legislation has been published and circulated to the autonomous communities who will have the responsibility of implementing it. From this draft it looks like it is the governments intention to include foreigners legally resident in Spain in the system (as well as undocumented immigrants as had been previously expected). This is confirmed by the media stories I've seen. Here's the key passage (Article 1);
> 
> "Son titulares de los derechos al la proteccion de la salud y al la proteccion sanitaria todos los espanoles y ciudanos extranjeros que tengan establicida su residencia legal en el territorio espanol".
> 
> The following page has a link to the full text (el borrador del decreto)
> 
> https://www.redaccionmedica.com/sec...erio-para-recuperar-la-sanidad-universal-9918
> :clap2:


That would be good news for any resident British citizens who may be worried about the possibility of losing S1 cover at some time in the future, either due to Brexit or if a future British Government decides it needs to save some money as they did when they withdrew residual S1s for those below retirement age, and eligibility to claim Winter Fuel Allowance. I guess UK state pensioners would continue as they are for the foreseeable future with the UK Government funding their healthcare, unless and until something changes.

But would it mean that newly arrived people below state retirement agewould still have to provide proof of comprehensive health cover (and adequate financial resources) in order to establish themselves as legal residents? From reading your link, it would seem to me that they will.


----------



## Megsmum

Lynn R said:


> That would be good news for any resident British citizens who may be worried about the possibility of losing S1 cover at some time in the future, either due to Brexit or if a future British Government decides it needs to save some money as they did when they withdrew residual S1s for those below retirement age, and eligibility to claim Winter Fuel Allowance. I guess UK state pensioners would continue as they are for the foreseeable future with the UK Government funding their healthcare, unless and until something changes.
> 
> But would it mean that newly arrived people below state retirement agewould still have to provide proof of comprehensive health cover (and adequate financial resources) in order to establish themselves as legal residents? From reading your link, it would seem to me that they will.


Good news, I’m not particularly good at these official language translations but is it saying foreigners registered have to pay 40 % of medicine costs.

I’m going to stay autonomo as I’m contributing towards my pensions here, trying to keep ducks in row.


----------



## Lynn R

Megsmum said:


> Good news, I’m not particularly good at these official language translations but is it saying foreigners registered have to pay 40 % of medicine costs.
> 
> I’m going to stay autonomo as I’m contributing towards my pensions here, trying to keep ducks in row.


Yes it does say they will pay 40% of the cost of medication - and I didn't see any lower cost for pensionistas, either (with an S1 they currently pay only 10%, with a monthly cap for those on low incomes). But I could have overlooked it.

That would be better than the Convenio Especial as people covered under that have to pay 100% of the cost of their medications.

At this stage I find it all a bit confusing, though and it raises lots of questions. Will the Convenio Especial still exist if this measure is passed? I can't see anyone wanting to pay €60 or €157 per month (depending on their age) if they can get healthcare for free.

And for those who (I am assuming) would still have to provide proof of comprehensive healthcare coverage and adequate financial resources in order to establish themselves as legal residents in the first place, could they at a later date just ditch their private health insurance and register for free healthcare? If something seems too good to be true, it usually is.

And of course I suppose a future Spanish Government of a different political complexion might just change the rules back again. I don't much like the sound of the newly elected Leader of the PP.


----------



## xabiaxica

Lynn R said:


> Yes it does say they will pay 40% of the cost of medication - and I didn't see any lower cost for pensionistas, either (with an S1 they currently pay only 10%, with a monthly cap for those on low incomes). But I could have overlooked it.
> 
> That would be better than the Convenio Especial as people covered under that have to pay 100% of the cost of their medications.
> 
> At this stage I find it all a bit confusing, though and it raises lots of questions. Will the Convenio Especial still exist if this measure is passed? I can't see anyone wanting to pay €60 or €157 per month (depending on their age) if they can get healthcare for free.
> 
> And for those who (I am assuming) would still have to provide proof of comprehensive healthcare coverage and adequate financial resources in order to establish themselves as legal residents in the first place, could they at a later date just ditch their private health insurance and register for free healthcare? If something seems too good to be true, it usually is.
> 
> And of course I suppose a future Spanish Government of a different political complexion might just change the rules back again. I don't much like the sound of the newly elected Leader of the PP.


I think it might happen along the lines of what happened in 2012.

If you remember, when the law was passed in the October, free healthcare for legal residents only applied to those who had been registered before April 24 2012. 

I might be wrong, but I see no other way of avoiding potential health tourism.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

littleweed said:


> Hi,
> Just a quick update for those interested in recent reports of the new Governments intention to restore universal healthcare, A draft of the proposed legislation has been published and circulated to the autonomous communities who will have the responsibility of implementing it. From this draft it looks like it is the governments intention to include foreigners legally resident in Spain in the system (as well as undocumented immigrants as had been previously expected). This is confirmed by the media stories I've seen. Here's the key passage (Article 1);
> 
> "Son titulares de los derechos al la proteccion de la salud y al la proteccion sanitaria todos los espanoles y ciudanos extranjeros que tengan establicida su residencia legal en el territorio espanol".
> 
> The following page has a link to the full text (el borrador del decreto)
> 
> https://www.redaccionmedica.com/sec...erio-para-recuperar-la-sanidad-universal-9918
> :clap2:


Undoubtedly good news
BUT
What is a Real Decreto?


> El *Real Decreto*-ley es una norma jurídica con rango de ley, propia de países con monarquía parlamentaria, que emana del poder ejecutivo y es dictada en caso de extraordinaria y urgente necesidad. Requiere de posterior convalidación o ratificación de parte del poder legislativo, habitualmente en un plazo breve.


https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_Decreto-ley


So it's not law and won't be for some time yet as this is just a draft and it will need ratification after the Real Decreto is issued...
And also...


> El Ministerio de *Carmen Montón* planea otorgar un gran protagonismo a las comunidades autónomas, pues serán las encargadas de fijar los procedimientos para que las personas sin nacionalidad española y en situación irregular puedan ser atendidos: "Las comunidades autónomas, en el ámbito de sus competencias, fijarán el procedimiento para la solicitud y expedición del documento certificativo que acredite a los extranjeros para poder recibir la prestación asistencial".


So, as is usual in Spain the local authorities will have the last say, and *when* it comes in the requirements will vary from place to place. This is just like today to become registered as an EU resident in Spain you have to have enough money to _not become a burden on the state _and every local authority decides what amount that is; 600€ a month in some places, 800€ or a 100€ in others...
Another point to bear in mind is the government in power. I'm not sure if the PP were thinking of introducing similar measures, I think not. This may only go ahead if the PSOE stay in power and elections are likely before all of this goes through...
Caution is needed. If they push it through quickly, then great, but people still need to wait to find out what each local authority does. Nothing is cut and dried, but nothing is cut in stone either


----------



## stevesainty

https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...o_boe/txt.php?id=BOE-A-2018-10752&prev=search

2 questions

1 Is this the publication of the new law or is it still in the discussion stage.
2 If a UK citizen is a legal resident in Spain and is a) under UK state retirement age and b) is paying into the Convenio Especiál, will they need to continue paying into CE


----------



## xabiaxica

stevesainty said:


> https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...o_boe/txt.php?id=BOE-A-2018-10752&prev=search
> 
> 2 questions
> 
> 1 Is this the publication of the new law or is it still in the discussion stage.
> 2 If a UK citizen is a legal resident in Spain and is a) under UK state retirement age and b) is paying into the Convenio Especiál, will they need to continue paying into CE


It has been passed. 

All I can find online reporting it is this https://www.plantadoce.com/publico/la-sanidad-universal-regresa-a-espana-despues-de-seis-anos.html

Nothing in El País or the other biggies yet though.

As for your second question - no idea. 

To be truly universal, that would mean everyone, at a quick look, it only seems to mention those who are 'undocumented' & clearly for someone to be paying into the convenio especial, they're documented (not just Brits btw - it's open to all nationalities. 


Going to have a deeper read of the original now. If I come up with anything, I'll post again.


----------



## xabiaxica

xabiachica said:


> It has been passed.
> 
> All I can find online reporting it is this https://www.plantadoce.com/publico/la-sanidad-universal-regresa-a-espana-despues-de-seis-anos.html
> 
> Nothing in El País or the other biggies yet though.
> 
> As for your second question - no idea.
> 
> To be truly universal, that would mean everyone, at a quick look, it only seems to mention those who are 'undocumented' & clearly for someone to be paying into the convenio especial, they're documented (not just Brits btw - it's open to all nationalities.
> 
> 
> Going to have a deeper read of the original now. If I come up with anything, I'll post again.


It's for everyone - legally registered, too.



> Article 3 c) Ser persona extranjera y con residencia legal y habitual en el territorio español y no tener la obligación de acreditar la cobertura obligatoria de la prestación sanitaria por otra vía.


Translation


> c) To be a foreigner with legal and habitual residence in Spanish territory and not having the obligation to prove compulsory coverage of health care by another means.


Although that could be taken to exclude those registering as resident who DO have to prove that they have healthcare provision. 

So I was maybe correct when I guessed that it would cover those already resident.


----------



## stevesainty

xabiachica said:


> It has been passed.
> 
> All I can find online reporting it is this https://www.plantadoce.com/publico/la-sanidad-universal-regresa-a-espana-despues-de-seis-anos.html
> 
> Nothing in El País or the other biggies yet though.
> 
> As for your second question - no idea.
> 
> To be truly universal, that would mean everyone, at a quick look, it only seems to mention those who are 'undocumented' & clearly for someone to be paying into the convenio especial, they're documented (not just Brits btw - it's open to all nationalities.
> 
> 
> 
> Going to have a deeper read of the original now. If I come up with anything, I'll post again.


https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...-espana-despues-de-seis-anos.html&prev=search

Thank you xabiachica, here is the link to the English translation of the article you quoted


----------



## kaipa

I think that it only for undocumented illegals who have no form of health cover. Also for Spanish who have no Social security payments. Don't think it is available to EU nationals. So unfortunately if you are t on a pension you still have to have insurance.


----------



## MaryHinge

kaipa said:


> I think that it only for undocumented illegals who have no form of health cover. Also for Spanish who have no Social security payments. Don't think it is available to EU nationals. So unfortunately if you are t on a pension you still have to have insurance.


I think you are mistaken

_"The universal health will be valid in Spain from tomorrow. The measure guarantees the right to health protection and healthcare to *"all persons with Spanish nationality and foreigners who have established their residence in Spanish territory."* This has been determined by the Royal Decree of the Government that has been published on Monday in the Official State Gazette (BOE)"._


----------



## xabiaxica

kaipa said:


> I think that it only for undocumented illegals who have no form of health cover. Also for Spanish who have no Social security payments. Don't think it is available to EU nationals. So unfortunately if you are t on a pension you still have to have insurance.


It clearly states that foreigners ''with legal & habitual residency in Spanish territory and not having the obligation to prove compulsory coverage of health care by another means.'' as being covered. 

ALL foreigners have to provide proof of compulsory coverage when registering, not just EU citizens.


----------



## Lynn R

xabiachica said:


> It clearly states that foreigners ''with legal & habitual residency in Spanish territory and not having the obligation to prove compulsory coverage of health care by another means.'' as being covered.
> 
> ALL foreigners have to provide proof of compulsory coverage when registering, not just EU citizens.


So what will this mean in practice, do you think? People will obviously still need to provide proof of comprehensive health cover when registering as residents, but if that takes the form of private health insurance, will they now be able to cancel that after the initial year and register for state healthcare? Or does it apply only to those who were already registered as residents on the date the legislation was passed?


----------



## xabiaxica

Lynn R said:


> So what will this mean in practice, do you think? People will obviously still need to provide proof of comprehensive health cover when registering as residents, but if that takes the form of private health insurance, will they now be able to cancel that after the initial year and register for state healthcare? Or does it apply only to those who were already registered as residents on the date the legislation was passed?


I think yes, that newcomers will still have to have health insurance to register. S1 holders will still have their healthcare paid by the issuing country.


I suspect that the INSS will do what they did in 2012, & pick a date around the time Sánchez announced the intention, or when it was first discussed in Parliament, & say that you have to have been registered by that date in order to qualify.

In all honesty, I don't see any other way of preventing healthcare tourism.


----------



## The Skipper

Just a thought, but how long is Pedro Sanchez likely to remain as PM? He leads a minority party with only 85 seats out of 350. The PP, now with a new leader, Pablo Casado, has 137 seats and might seek to bring down Sanchez before the year is out. How long before the health care reforms are reversed if that happens?


----------



## Megsmum

The Skipper said:


> Just a thought, but how long is Pedro Sanchez likely to remain as PM? He leads a minority party with only 85 seats out of 350. The PP, now with a new leader, Pablo Casado, has 137 seats and might seek to bring down Sanchez before the year is out. How long before the health care reforms are reversed if that happens?


Which is why we will stay as we are


----------



## Megsmum

xabiachica said:


> I think yes, that newcomers will still have to have health insurance to register. S1 holders will still have their healthcare paid by the issuing country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I suspect that the INSS will do what they did in 2012, & pick a date around the time Sánchez announced the intention, or when it was first discussed in Parliament, & say that you have to have been registered by that date in order to qualify.
> 
> 
> 
> In all honesty, I don't see any other way of preventing healthcare tourism.
Click to expand...

But then, what happens to undocumented migrants after the declared date, we are in the exact same situation?


----------



## xabiaxica

Megsmum said:


> But then, what happens to undocumented migrants after the declared date, we are in the exact same situation?


Undocumented is undocumented, regardless of any date. I imagine that there will be some caveat that they are those who cannot apply for residency / register as EU citizens.

What I meant was I expect that documented, legal residents will only qualify if registered before a certain date.


It's only an educated guess of course, based on what has happened in the past. 

I might be way off beam, & it will be a free-for-all.


----------



## Megsmum

I have emailed our lawyer, who is very clued up on all things about residency etc. For her take on the situation. However like most Spanish companies it can take a while for her to get back but she is usually on the mark with advice. I will report back as and when


----------



## xabiaxica

xabiachica said:


> Undocumented is undocumented, regardless of any date. *I imagine that there will be some caveat that they are those who cannot apply for residency / register as EU citizens.
> *
> What I meant was I expect that documented, legal residents will only qualify if registered before a certain date.
> 
> 
> It's only an educated guess of course, based on what has happened in the past.
> 
> I might be way off beam, & it will be a free-for-all.


What I meant by the bit in red, is those without documentation of any kind. No passport etc. Then of course they wouldn't be able to register in any way.


----------



## kaipa

The articles I have read in Spanish news just don't seem to mention non Spanish EU citizens as it doesn't seem to pique their attention. It mostly focusses on undocumented immigrants and is in Spain seem primarily as a political move. I haven't read anything about how it extends to Brits and suspect that it won't. It is appears to be a move to assist the chronically poor as opposed to those who are seen as contextually rich


----------



## Pesky Wesky

xabiachica said:


> What I meant by the bit in red, is those without documentation of any kind. No passport etc. Then of course they wouldn't be able to register in any way.


I am sure it means the literally undocumented


----------



## xabiaxica

kaipa said:


> The articles I have read in Spanish news just don't seem to mention non Spanish EU citizens as it doesn't seem to pique their attention. It mostly focusses on undocumented immigrants and is in Spain seem primarily as a political move. I haven't read anything about how it extends to Brits and suspect that it won't. It is appears to be a move to assist the chronically poor as opposed to those who are seen as contextually rich


I can't imagine why on earth any article should mention Brits, or indeed any other nationality. 

The BOE clearly states all legal foreign residents, though.


----------



## kaipa

Has anyone found a first hand Spanish version of this which throws light on the situation regarding Brit expat? The only ones I have found seem to be in English( not first hand) and clearly based on people's interpretation of the law


----------



## kaipa

It isn't that it has to mention Brits as important it just has this caveat about obligation to have medical cover which seems to suggest it won't apply to Brits.


----------



## xabiaxica

kaipa said:


> Has anyone found a first hand Spanish version of this which throws light on the situation regarding Brit expat? The only ones I have found seem to be in English( not first hand) and clearly based on people's interpretation of the law


Here's the boletín BOE.es - Documento BOE-A-2018-10752


It doesn't give any info about any specific nationality.

Art. 3.2.c talks about all legal & habitual resident foreigners


----------



## Overandout

kaipa said:


> Has anyone found a first hand Spanish version of this which throws light on the situation regarding Brit expat? The only ones I have found seem to be in English( not first hand) and clearly based on people's interpretation of the law


Sanidad universal: El Gobierno aprueba la ley que devuelve la sanidad universal


----------



## kaipa

The first paragraph outlines this main point : citizens without documented residence


----------



## xabiaxica

kaipa said:


> The first paragraph outlines this main point : citizens without documented residence


Keep reading!


----------



## kaipa

It really is difficult to understand this. The document official indicates that it is designed to restore the status quo before PP and Cleary is about immigrants who are not residents. The news article states this as well but goes on to say it applies to all who are resident. So not that clear


----------



## kaipa

Article 3 paragraph c? Sounds like it means it won't apply to us. Not sure so don't jump on me! Just my interpretation


----------



## xabiaxica

kaipa said:


> Article 3 paragraph c? Sounds like it means it won't apply to us. Not sure so don't jump on me! Just my interpretation


Perhaps it applies to only those who have permanent residency. We/they are not obliged to prove that we have healthcare provision if/when we ask for our 'permanent' certificate. . 

Although once registered, you don't have to, either. 

It does say that once someone has been here for 90 days they are expected to fulfill registration requirements. Those requirements (for everyone, not just EU citizens) are to provide proof of healthcare provision. 

No-one knows yet of course. Until it's tested. 

Individual comunidades might well interpret things differently to each other, too.

For example, when we had 'universal healthcare' previously, in Valencia that applied to allcomers, including newly arrived foreign residents. That wasn't the case everywhere.

That was back in the days when registering wasn't a requirement for EU citizens though.


----------



## baldilocks

xabiachica said:


> I can't imagine why on earth any article should mention Brits, or indeed any other nationality.
> 
> The BOE clearly states all *legal foreign residents*, though.


That wording can be misconstrued and could include UK residents, for example


----------



## xabiaxica

baldilocks said:


> That wording can be misconstrued and could include UK residents, for example


sorry? 

We're talking about Spain! Legal residents of Spain, obviously!


----------



## kaipa

Arte 3 para c "...no tener la obligación de acreditar.." how do you interpret ?


----------



## Overandout

kaipa said:


> Arte 3 para c "...no tener la obligación de acreditar.." how do you interpret ?


I read this as a reference, for example, to the "Código de Extranjería" which obliges immigrants (in most cases) to have suitable medical coverage in order to live in Spain.

This Real Decreto does not modify or derogate the Código de Extranjería, so I would say that most immigrants will not be able to use this RD as a method to obtain free health care in Spain because the obligation to have coverage from another source remains.


----------



## xabiaxica

kaipa said:


> Arte 3 para c "...no tener la obligación de acreditar.." how do you interpret ?


To have no obligation to prove


----------



## xabiaxica

Overandout said:


> I read this as a reference, for example, to the "Código de Extranjería" which obliges immigrants (in most cases) to have suitable medical coverage in order to live in Spain.
> 
> This Real Decreto does not modify or derogate the Código de Extranjería, so I would say that most immigrants will not be able to use this RD as a method to obtain free health care in Spain because the obligation to have coverage from another source remains.


Once you are a permanent resident, after 5 years, there's no longer that obligation. 

So, as I said earlier in the thread, perhaps it does apply to permanent residents.


----------



## kaipa

Jajajaja.


----------



## Overandout

xabiachica said:


> Once you are a permanent resident, after 5 years, there's no longer that obligation.
> 
> So, as I said earlier in the thread, perhaps it does apply to permanent residents.


Maybe yes. Although I'm not sure where it says that upon obtaining a permanent certificate of residence you are entitled to free heath care. I have never looked for that provision.


----------



## xabiaxica

Overandout said:


> Maybe yes. Although I'm not sure where it says that upon obtaining a permanent certificate of residence you are entitled to free heath care. I have never looked for that provision.


When you go to get a permanent cert / card, if you have been a registered resident for 5 years the only documentation you have to supply is your passport & the application form. You are not obliged to provide proof of healthcare.

Now, in the new BOE, it says that legal residents who are not obliged to provide proof of healthcare, are now entitled to free healthcare. 

Maybe I'm right in thinking that applies to permenent residents, maybe I'm wrong - but that's my interpretation. 

Time will tell.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

xabiachica said:


> When you go to get a permanent cert / card, if you have been a registered resident for 5 years the only documentation you have to supply is your passport & the application form. You are not obliged to provide proof of healthcare.
> 
> Now, in the new BOE, it says that legal residents who are not obliged to provide proof of healthcare, are now entitled to free healthcare.
> 
> Maybe I'm right in thinking that applies to permenent residents, maybe I'm wrong - but that's my interpretation.
> 
> Time will tell.


But surely only along the same lines as Spaniards ie healthcare in the social security system IF you are contributing, not exactly free. Otherwise that's means I get free healthcare whether J work or not, but my Spanish husband and daughter don't.??? No, can't see that myself...


----------



## Megsmum

Pesky Wesky said:


> But surely only along the same lines as Spaniards ie healthcare in the social security system IF you are contributing, not exactly free. Otherwise that's means I get free healthcare whether J work or not, but my Spanish husband and daughter don't.??? No, can't see that myself...


I’m not contradicting you as you have a Spanish family but I thought healthcare was available to all Spaniards since 2012 or have I misunderstood. I know people who are not working (Spanish) and I. Pretty sure I have seen them at the Drs. Do I have this completely wrong :confused2:


----------



## kaipa

All Spanish have free healthcare. I think this law is to return the free healthcare for undocumented immigrants that was repealed by PP. I am not convinced that it going to be for non Spanish EU citizens as I haven't heard any Spanish politicians talking about it in this context but that might be because they don t see it as having much significance with the Spanish electorate


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Megsmum said:


> I’m not contradicting you as you have a Spanish family but I thought healthcare was available to all Spaniards since 2012 or have I misunderstood. I know people who are not working (Spanish) and I. Pretty sure I have seen them at the Drs. Do I have this completely wrong :confused2:


Sorry, yes they do you're right, but they have to sign on for it in a different way; it is processed in a different way. My daughter was covered in this way for a few months when she wasn't working, studying, covered by us etc. Sorry to have confused the matter


----------



## snikpoh

*Convenio Especial no longer available*

It seems that the Convenio Especial has ceased to be available from 31-7-18

I presume this is due to the introduction of free healthcare for all?


----------



## Relyat

I read that recently too. Linked to the other post about free healthcare for all.

Nothing was said when we attended hospital yesterday or the doctor this morning though.


----------



## Elyles

snikpoh said:


> It seems that the Convenio Especial has ceased to be available from 31-7-18
> 
> 
> 
> I presume this is due to the introduction of free healthcare for all?




What? My wife and I who are on the program Convenio Especial, have heard nothing about this. Free healthcare for all? That too! Also, there is nothing on the Aragon Saludinforma website about this therefore, as in the words of The Idiot, Donald Trump, “It’s fake news”


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Megsmum

snikpoh said:


> It seems that the Convenio Especial has ceased to be available from 31-7-18
> 
> I presume this is due to the introduction of free healthcare for all?


Where is the link to this news?


----------



## MaryHinge

_"Disposición transitoria primera. *Convenio especia*l de prestación de asistencia sanitaria.

Los convenios especiales de prestación de asistencia sanitaria suscritos en aplicación de lo dispuesto en el artículo 3.3 de la Ley 16/2003, de 28 de mayo, por aquellas personas que tras la entrada en vigor de este real decreto-ley tengan derecho a recibir la asistencia sanitaria en el territorio español con cargo a fondos públicos, mantendrán su vigencia hasta el último día del mes natural en que entre en vigor este real decreto-ley."_

It wont allow me to post the link as not done enough posts yet, but it clearly stated on the Decree on the BOE site. A link to this is on the other thread FREE HEALTH CARE


----------



## Elyles

Elyles said:


> What? My wife and I who are on the program Convenio Especial, have heard nothing about this. Free healthcare for all? That too! Also, there is nothing on the Aragon Saludinforma website about this therefore, as in the words of The Idiot, Donald Trump, “It’s fake news”
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk




Also nothing on any Spanish government website regarding this issue either.


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## MaryHinge

Elyles said:


> Also nothing on any Spanish government website regarding this issue either.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


How is the BOE web site NOT an official Spanish State Gov website?


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## Elyles

MaryHinge said:


> How is the BOE web site NOT an official Spanish State Gov website?




We are going to call the office in Zaragoza


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## Relyat

Elyles said:


> Also nothing on any Spanish government website regarding this issue either.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Really ?

La Moncloa. 27/07/2018. El Gobierno aprueba el Real Decreto-ley que garantiza la atención sanitaria universal [Prensa/Actualidad/Sanidad, Consumo y Bienestar Social]

Still fake is it?


----------



## Alcalaina

Elyles said:


> Also nothing on any Spanish government website regarding this issue either.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


It's a bit early for that, this law is very new. And it's August ...

Best advice is to contact the local INSS for clarification, /SNIP/


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## xabiaxica

Now that's interesting.

So in that case free healthcare presumably DOES apply to all registered residents!


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## Relyat

xabiachica said:


> Now that's interesting.
> 
> So in that case free healthcare presumably DOES apply to all registered residents!


That was my understanding of it, although I appreciate that I might have misinterpreted it.


----------



## Elyles

I need to look at the horario for the INSS here


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## xabiaxica

Elyles said:


> What? My wife and I who are on the program Convenio Especial, have heard nothing about this. Free healthcare for all? That too! Also, there is nothing on the Aragon Saludinforma website about this therefore, as in the words of The Idiot, Donald Trump, “It’s fake news”
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Not fake news.

Here's a link to the Royal Decree BOE.es - Documento BOE-A-2018-10752


----------



## xabiaxica

Relyat said:


> That was my understanding of it, although I appreciate that I might have misinterpreted it.


I can think of no other reason for the_ convenio especial_ to be stopped. 

It's an income stream, after all.


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## DawnColin

I know I provided the translation but as a non-Spanish speaker (at the moment) and someone who is trying to thoroughly investigate and plan our move to Javea in advance, would someone be kind enough to explain this to me please? 

I am budgeting for us to have to pay private healthcare in year one and then convenio especial thereafter due to our age (not retired) and self funding (not working). Am I being too premature in thinking that we may not have to budget for either of these anymore, once we are over the 183 day requirement for residency?

Many thanks :clap2:


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## xabiaxica

kaipa said:


> All Spanish have free healthcare. I think this law is to return the free healthcare for undocumented immigrants that was repealed by PP. I am not convinced that it going to be for non Spanish EU citizens as I haven't heard any Spanish politicians talking about it in this context but that might be because they don t see it as having much significance with the Spanish electorate


Since the convenio especial has now been cancelled, which is of course an income stream for the govt., it seems that all legal residents will now be covered, which was my original interpretation.


I can't imagine they'd close down an income stream on the same day as the new rules came into effect, & say that you have to have private insurance. 

I still reckon new registrations will need to prove healthcare provision in order to register in the first place though.

I agree - I doubt Spanish voters would be very interested.


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## Elyles

xabiachica said:


> I can think of no other reason for the_ convenio especial_ to be stopped.
> 
> 
> 
> It's an income stream, after all.




In Aragon there are only 4 people on it. Not much income here


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## xabiaxica

DawnColin said:


> I know I provided the translation but as a non-Spanish speaker (at the moment) and someone who is trying to thoroughly investigate and plan our move to Javea in advance, would someone be kind enough to explain this to me please?
> 
> I am budgeting for us to have to pay private healthcare in year one and then convenio especial thereafter due to our age (not retired) and self funding (not working). Am I being too premature in thinking that we may not have to budget for either of these anymore, once we are over the 183 day requirement for residency?
> 
> Many thanks :clap2:


It still isn't clear - but as far as we know, you will still need to prove healthcare provision in order to register as resident, which you are required to do in the first 90 days. This new decree doesn't seem to override that. 

You have to take a policy for a year, but it does look as though after that time, you'll be able to use the state system as a legal resident.


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## Megsmum

Spanish friend phoned INSS here. As far as they are concerned there is no change to any healthcare provisions . I suspect it’ll take time to filter down if it’s correct. Also, I was under the impression autonomous regions made there own decisions 

Like Eyles, very few foreigners here and CE only just arrived here ?


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## kaipa

Be careful as my wife who processes residencies says there is no report of this and you can not get residencies without healthcare insurance ( as of today) Surely lawyers here in the south of Spain and even on gov UK site would report this as this is going to be big news for expat who are not in receipt of pensions


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## Elyles

xabiachica said:


> I can think of no other reason for the_ convenio especial_ to be stopped.
> 
> 
> 
> It's an income stream, after all.




I have an appointment tomorrow morning with the local INSS office. Hopefully I am giving myself an early birthday gift


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## Megsmum

xabiachica said:


> Now that's interesting.
> 
> So in that case free healthcare presumably DOES apply to all registered residents!


Or

Those with five years ? Maybe they’re extending the amount of time you have to live here to get free healthcare 

Ie instead of a year the CE it’s five and the state healthcare 


I’m being a bit thick. I still don’t understand how any of this affects undocumented migrants?


----------



## kaipa

Convention Especial is dependent on different communidad. Is it closed in all or just some?


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## Elyles

kaipa said:


> Be careful as my wife who processes residencies says there is no report of this and you can not get residencies without healthcare insurance ( as of today) Surely lawyers here in the south of Spain and even on gov UK site would report this as this is going to be big news for expat who are not in receipt of pensions




I venture to guess that there will be new residency laws as the Spanish are not so stupid to open flood gates. As it is, it would encourage more Expats to come for basically free healthcare. I am now a permanent resident as well as a US pensioner. If it applies to me, great, and if not, NBFD. I do however have the Convenio Especial. This is interesting to say the least. 


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## kaipa

It gives back free healthcare to undocumented immigrants and is therefore a repeal of PP law which was inacted in 2012. Problem is that it seems to suggest in applies only to those whose countries don't have a reciprocal agreement. Well that is how I read it. Might be wrong.


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## Megsmum

[



kaipa said:


> Convention Especial is dependent on different communidad. Is it closed in all or just some?


CE has only just arrived in my comunidad


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## kaipa

Can't see how convention especial abolition is connected to undocumented immigrants which is the idea behind the law


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## kaipa

Just as a matter of interest in which countries in Europe is there universal healthcare. I know that in Sweden it is the same as Spain in that if you dont pay in you have to have insurance for residency after 90 days. What about other countries?


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## xabiaxica

kaipa said:


> Just as a matter of interest in which countries in Europe is there universal healthcare. I know that in Sweden it is the same as Spain in that if you dont pay in you have to have insurance for residency after 90 days. What about other countries?


All Spanish nationals now (since 2012) have healthcare weather they have paid in or not. As do ALL residents who registered before April 24 2012. again, whether or not they have paid anything in, if no other country is responsible for their healthcare - such as S1 holders.


In England, EU residents are entitled to healthcare. Non-EU immigrants have to pay a 'deposit/surcharge' on application for a visa. They are only entitled to healthcare if they have Indefinite leave to remain.


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## DawnColin

Its early days for us in our planning etc so I have no plans to change anything unless a lawyer tells me at the time that I don't need it :fingerscrossed:

We will go ahead with private health care initially for 12 months and then we will have time to sort out what happens after that. If there is anything that filters through in the meantime then it will be an interesting subject, especially with the complications of the 'B' word and no one having any clue about that either


----------



## Lynn R

kaipa said:


> Just as a matter of interest in which countries in Europe is there universal healthcare. I know that in Sweden it is the same as Spain in that if you dont pay in you have to have insurance for residency after 90 days. What about other countries?


I have read on Portugese expat forums that fairly recently (for about a year, I seem to remember) anyone who becomes resident in Portugal is able to register for state healthcare, without charge. I guess this is the model that the new Spanish law seeks to adopt. Not surprisingly, there are reports of people in some areas experiencing difficulty in registering for this because not all staff are aware of the change, and I'm quite sure the same will happen in Spain.

This thread from the Portugal section of this forum refers to their new system:-

https://www.expatforum.com/expats/p...healthcare-insurance-cover-advice-please.html

Because of the clauses stipulating that this will only apply if there is no third party responsible for funding the applicant's healthcare, and that it only applies if the applicant is unable to export their healthcare cover from their own country, I would imagine that in the case of UK citizens below state retirement age, they will need to obtain the "legislation letter" from the DWP as those who were resident before 2012 had to do to register for Spanish state healthcare.


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## Lynn R

Lynn R said:


> I have read on Portugese expat forums that fairly recently (for about a year, I seem to remember) anyone who becomes resident in Portugal is able to register for state healthcare, without charge. I guess this is the model that the new Spanish law seeks to adopt. Not surprisingly, there are reports of people in some areas experiencing difficulty in registering for this because not all staff are aware of the change, and I'm quite sure the same will happen in Spain.
> 
> This thread from the Portugal section of this forum refers to their new system:-
> 
> https://www.expatforum.com/expats/p...healthcare-insurance-cover-advice-please.html
> 
> Because of the clauses stipulating that this will only apply if there is no third party responsible for funding the applicant's healthcare, and that it only applies if the applicant is unable to export their healthcare cover from their own country, I would imagine that in the case of UK citizens below state retirement age, they will need to obtain the "legislation letter" from the DWP as those who were resident before 2012 had to do to register for Spanish state healthcare.


Actuallly the "without charge" bit isn't quite right, because in the Portugese state healthcare system there are charges for everyone, even Portugese citizens - eg a small fee to see a GP.


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## kaipa

So having looked through a lot of the Spanish news reports it appears the costing that was presented was with respect to undocumented immigrants. In other words the budget was not that great as it was compared with cost of probable emergency treatment if untreated health problems worsened. So the law is approved for funding in this area. However if we are right then that cost is going to be much higher taking in the number of EU citizens not covered by their countries healthcare system and not contributing. Not to mention the attraction of health tourism. So maybe this forum has stumbled on something that has not been considered or we have misinterpreted the law. Either way it is certainly an interesting situation and could make a big difference to EU nationals who wish to settle here without the need to work.


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## Lynn R

kaipa said:


> So having looked through a lot of the Spanish news reports it appears the costing that was presented was with respect to undocumented immigrants. In other words the budget was not that great as it was compared with cost of probable emergency treatment if untreated health problems worsened. So the law is approved for funding in this area. However if we are right then that cost is going to be much higher taking in the number of EU citizens not covered by their countries healthcare system and not contributing. Not to mention the attraction of health tourism. So maybe this forum has stumbled on something that has not been considered or we have misinterpreted the law. Either way it is certainly an interesting situation and could make a big difference to EU nationals who wish to settle here without the need to work.



But in this article which was linked to very early on in the Free Healthcare thread, it clearly refers to the cost of making healthcare available to ALL foreigners resident in Spain, so those costings obviously had been done.

La Sanidad gratuita a extranjeros le costará a España 1.100 millones al año - elEconomista.es


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## kaipa

Thanks Lynne. That article does cost it and it begins by saying all foreigners resident in Spain followed by undocumented immigrants. First time I have seen it written this way as the other papers only mention immigrants with irregular conditions as being the focal point of the law. But it still all seems to depend on those small caveats about compulsory coverage for residency. UK expat require coverage for residencia. Doesn't that mean it won't apply to us as there are exceptions?


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## kaipa

Sorry what I mean is the costing is for all residents except the ones that fall under the categories of not being covered


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## Elyles

kaipa said:


> Sorry what I mean is the costing is for all residents except the ones that fall under the categories of not being covered




We can interpret all we want but the reality is in how the State interprets this. 


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## Elyles

*Convenio Especial no longer available*



Elyles said:


> We can interpret all we want but the reality is in how the State interprets this.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk




I just returned from a visit with my friend at the local INSS office. He basically said that it is great the government passes a law but common for there to be a law passed with no system in effect to apply or even define it. Also, until such a time that their office receives information on any procedures, it is just status quo. And too, not to expect any info for six months. 

He also mentioned that the Convenio Especial can still exist despite all this.


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## Elyles

kaipa said:


> Sorry what I mean is the costing is for all residents except the ones that fall under the categories of not being covered




You mean like Americans, like myself, where there is no treaty on this?


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## kaipa

Six months before a law is active? Is that the official line?. Surely a law comes in place when it stipulates not when different people decide to apply it


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## Elyles

kaipa said:


> Six months before a law is active? Is that the official line?. Surely a law comes in place when it stipulates not when different people decide to apply it




I just received this from the State office in Zaragoza.

Tal como le comentamos, el Real Decreto-Ley 7/2018, de 27 de julio, sobre el acceso universal al Sistema Nacional de Salud mantiene la vigencia de los Convenios Especiales para las personas que no tengan derecho a la asistencia sanitaria con cargo a fondos públicos por otras vías. 

La nueva ley no da la admisión al sistema nacional de salud en España a todos los residentes.

Un saludo.

So—-no changes in the current structure for me. 


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## kaipa

Yes. As expected it might initially look like all residents but then comes the " However!!. Bit of a bummer but then it is really designed for people who have come from desperate situations.


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## Elyles

*Free healthcare*

I have been posting on the Convenio Especial topic which is parallel to this. Since yesterday I have contacted the office in Zaragoza as well as the Saludinforma people. Apparently the law applies to qualified residents. The following response I just received. Also, apparently, the law does not do away with Convenio Especial either.

Since my wife is a German citizen who does not qualify for a pension and I am a permanent resident but a US citizen, I asked for further clarification. 

Tal como le comentamos, el Real Decreto-Ley 7/2018, de 27 de julio, sobre el acceso universal al Sistema Nacional de Salud mantiene la vigencia de los Convenios Especiales para las personas que no tengan derecho a la asistencia sanitaria con cargo a fondos públicos por otras vías. 

La nueva ley no da la admisión al sistema nacional de salud en España a todos los residentes.

Saludos


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## MaryHinge

Elyles said:


> I have been posting on the Convenio Especial topic which is parallel to this. Since yesterday I have contacted the office in Zaragoza as well as the Saludinforma people. Apparently the law applies to qualified residents. The following response I just received. *Also, apparently, the law does not do away with Convenio Especial either.
> *


It quite clearly say that it *does* on the Royal Decree-Law 7/2018, of July 27, on universal access to the National Health System. So I imagine the functionario who gave you this information has not read the Decree correctly.


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## xabiaxica

MaryHinge said:


> It quite clearly say that it *does* on the Royal Decree-Law 7/2018, of July 27, on universal access to the National Health System. So I imagine the functionario who gave you this information has not read the Decree correctly.


Can you point us to the Article & paragraph please?


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## MaryHinge

xabiachica said:


> Can you point us to the Article & paragraph please?


You, yourself also said it had been cancelled in your post #97 and I quote _" Since the convenio especial has now been cancelled, which is of course an income stream for the govt_ I cannot actually post the link as of yet (as not enough posts) but here is the cut n paste from the Decree

*Disposición transitoria primera. Convenio especial de prestación de asistencia sanitaria.

Los convenios especiales de prestación de asistencia sanitaria suscritos en aplicación de lo dispuesto en el artículo 3.3 de la Ley 16/2003, de 28 de mayo, por aquellas personas que tras la entrada en vigor de este real decreto-ley tengan derecho a recibir la asistencia sanitaria en el territorio español con cargo a fondos públicos, mantendrán su vigencia hasta el último día del mes natural en que entre en vigor este real decreto-ley.*


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## Megsmum

Can we merge this and the other thread to include all posts re change of healthcare or possible change as it’s difficult going from one to the other


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## Elyles

Megsmum said:


> Can we merge this and the other thread to include all posts re change of healthcare or possible change as it’s difficult going from one to the other




Agreed


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## snikpoh

Megsmum said:


> Can we merge this and the other thread to include all posts re change of healthcare or possible change as it’s difficult going from one to the other


I purposely tried to keep them separate as my post was about the cancellation of the Convenio Especial. This was because many are STILL being told that they can apply for it after 12 months - clearly they can't. 

I know it's early days but I didn't want people to have to wade through the other massive thread just to find this little snippet.

I should have know that people would take it 'off topic'.

If others agree it should be merged then we can do it.


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## Megsmum

snikpoh said:


> I purposely tried to keep them separate as my post was about the cancellation of the Convenio Especial. This was because many are STILL being told that they can apply for it after 12 months - clearly they can't.
> 
> I know it's easily days but I didn't want people to have to wade through the other massive thread just to find this little snippet.
> 
> I should have know that people would take it 'off topic'.
> 
> If others agree it should be merged then we can do it.


Fair enough, I understand your logic.


----------



## Phil Squares

Eyeles, 

I guess I would argue otherwise. I read the new legislation both the Spanish and translated version. I don't see where the no coverage comes from. The issue, as I see it, is if you are legally registered as a resident. 

I also spoke to my attorney in Madrid today on another issue, but their take is once my wife retires from teaching here, if we elect to stay we would be covered. there is no obligation or requirement to obtain private insurance or other coverage. 

But, this is Spain, one person says yes and the other person could say no! But the attorney seems very certain the intent was to go back to the pre 2012 status. 

Time will tell.


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## kaipa

http://amp.economiadigital.es/upday...=referral&utm_campaign=UpDay&utm_content=push 


This has just been published today. As you can see the whole article is about how universal healthcare is not gratis for legal residents, who will still need private cover. It was all there in the original decree


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## kaipa

a nueva ley de acceso universal al sistema nacional de salud garantiza a los inmigrantes sin papeles en España la obtención de cualquier servicio sanitario. “Las personas extranjeras no registradas ni autorizadas como residentes en España tienen derecho a la protección de la salud y a la atención sanitaria en las mismas condiciones que las personas con nacionalidad española”, detalla el artículo 3 del Real-decreto del*acceso al sistema de salud*aprobado el 27 de julio pasado.*


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## kaipa

ero los inmigrantes que estén tramitado su permiso de residencia regular desde sus países o estén en proceso de renovación en España y no cuenten con trabajo por cuenta ajena deben pagar seguros privados como los de*Sanitas*o*Adeslas, que han diseñado seguros específicos para este público. Los más baratos tienen una cuota de 36 euros mensuales y los más caros, para personas mayores de 65 años, alcanzan los 143*euros mensuales


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## kaipa

Sorry just loading this up so you see how it all works with respect to articulo 3

Hace una semana, el Gobierno de Pedro Sánchez eliminó la primera decisión, pero mantiene la segunda, con lo cual buena parte de los inmigrantes legales ahora estarán en desventaja comparativa con respecto a los ilegales

No such thing as a free lunch!!


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## Elyles

*Free healthcare*



Megsmum said:


> Fair enough, I understand your logic.




So far on this topic I only see suppositions. Any idea when someone will know something for sure? Basically I would like to know if I am covered. I am an American who is now a legal permanent resident of Spain. My wife is an EU resident via her German citizenship, but is also American. Neither of us have Spanish Pensions. We are both over 65 years old. There is no agreement between Spain and the US. 

Has the Convenio Especial been expunged, or not? My information, from the office that endorses it in our Community says no. Our local INSS office says that it is still status quoted until the term Universal Coverage is defined. If it has been expunged, how much longer will we pay for it? 

Will contacting an abogado help? 


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## kaipa

http://amp.economiadigital.es/upday...=referral&utm_campaign=UpDay&utm_content=push

This should answer your questions


----------



## Elyles

kaipa said:


> Sorry just loading this up so you see how it all works with respect to articulo 3
> 
> Hace una semana, el Gobierno de Pedro Sánchez eliminó la primera decisión, pero mantiene la segunda, con lo cual buena parte de los inmigrantes legales ahora estarán en desventaja comparativa con respecto a los ilegales
> 
> No such thing as a free lunch!!




Crap, I thought so. It is only about the immigrants 


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## xabiaxica

MaryHinge said:


> You, yourself also said it had been cancelled in your post #97 and I quote _" Since the convenio especial has now been cancelled, which is of course an income stream for the govt_ I cannot actually post the link as of yet (as not enough posts) but here is the cut n paste from the Decree
> 
> *Disposición transitoria primera. Convenio especial de prestación de asistencia sanitaria.
> 
> Los convenios especiales de prestación de asistencia sanitaria suscritos en aplicación de lo dispuesto en el artículo 3.3 de la Ley 16/2003, de 28 de mayo, por aquellas personas que tras la entrada en vigor de este real decreto-ley tengan derecho a recibir la asistencia sanitaria en el territorio español con cargo a fondos públicos, mantendrán su vigencia hasta el último día del mes natural en que entre en vigor este real decreto-ley.*


Thanks  

I had read it previously but for some reason just couldn't find it this morning!


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## kaipa

Well I like to think it's the price we pay for our forefathers gain with the slave trade. 
Still at least it stops the wild rumours in the expat communtirs


----------



## Elyles

Phil Squares said:


> Eyeles,
> 
> I guess I would argue otherwise. I read the new legislation both the Spanish and translated version. I don't see where the no coverage comes from. The issue, as I see it, is if you are legally registered as a resident.
> 
> I also spoke to my attorney in Madrid today on another issue, but their take is once my wife retires from teaching here, if we elect to stay we would be covered. there is no obligation or requirement to obtain private insurance or other coverage.
> 
> But, this is Spain, one person says yes and the other person could say no! But the attorney seems very certain the intent was to go back to the pre 2012 status.
> 
> Time will tell.




That is all I have. It would be fantastic if I didn’t have to pay Convenio Especial every month. I am a registered legal resident but a US citizen, all the same. My wife is a German/US citizen and neither of us qualify for Pensions here as we have never worked here. We are both over 65. 


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## xabiaxica

Elyles said:


> So far on this topic I only see suppositions. Any idea when someone will know something for sure? Basically I would like to know if I am covered. I am an American who is now a legal permanent resident of Spain. My wife is an EU resident via her German citizenship, but is also American. Neither of us have Spanish Pensions. We are both over 65 years old. There is no agreement between Spain and the US.
> 
> Has the Convenio Especial been expunged, or not? My information, from the office that endorses it in our Community says no. Our local INSS office says that it is still status quoted until the term Universal Coverage is defined. If it has been expunged, how much longer will we pay for it?
> 
> Will contacting an abogado help?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


It can sometimes take months for info to filter through to the front line. 


A few years ago I baja'd from autonomo fo ra couple of months, & towards the end of that time, the mostrador in the centro de salud mentioned to me that in one more month I would no longer be covered. 

That changed in 2012...

She was only trying to be helpful of course, but in the end, it's down to training.

Again, a few years ago, my daughter was told by the extranjería, that to get a copy of her resident cert, now that she was over 18, she'd have to show income & healthcare provision. 

She was still at school, so couldn't show income anyway, & had also been a registered resident for more than 5 years, so under no circumstances did she have to show income & healthcare. 

The funcionario was wrong.


----------



## Lynn R

xabiachica said:


> It can sometimes take months for info to filter through to the front line.
> 
> 
> A few years ago I baja'd from autonomo fo ra couple of months, & towards the end of that time, the mostrador in the centro de salud mentioned to me that in one more month I would no longer be covered.
> 
> That changed in 2012...
> 
> She was only trying to be helpful of course, but in the end, it's down to training.
> 
> Again, a few years ago, my daughter was told by the extranjería, that to get a copy of her resident cert, now that she was over 18, she'd have to show income & healthcare provision.
> 
> She was still at school, so couldn't show income anyway, & had also been a registered resident for more than 5 years, so under no circumstances did she have to show income & healthcare.
> 
> The funcionario was wrong.


When the change to the UK/Spain Double Taxation Treaty requiring Crown Pensions to be declared on Spanish tax returns as renta exenta (with a consequent effect on marginal rates of tax) took effect in 2015, staff at our local AEAT office were still assuring us two years later that we did not have to declare these pensions as they were only taxable in the UK. The clerk would go off and consult a supervisor, come back and say "I have checked and you definitely don't have to declare them". This year the news had obviously filtered through at last as we were able to declare them and the clerk understood which box they had to go into. Only took 3 years so we may have to wait some time yet for the facts regarding the new healthcare decree to become clear!


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## Elyles

Lynn R said:


> When the change to the UK/Spain Double Taxation Treaty requiring Crown Pensions to be declared on Spanish tax returns as renta exenta (with a consequent effect on marginal rates of tax) took effect in 2015, staff at our local AEAT office were still assuring us two years later that we did not have to declare these pensions as they were only taxable in the UK. The clerk would go off and consult a supervisor, come back and say "I have checked and you definitely don't have to declare them". This year the news had obviously filtered through at last as we were able to declare them and the clerk understood which box they had to go into. Only took 3 years so we may have to wait some time yet for the facts regarding the new healthcare decree to become clear!




Agreed. I was like an old dog of mine, hopeful.


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## Megsmum

When we arrived we were one of the last folks to get the S1 for early retirees. When I took it to the office they nearly fell down and died ( not many foreigners here:eyebrows. They told me no, no no you can’t be covered. I threw a hissy in very basic beginners Spanish obviously made myself clear. A senior clerk came took away my form. Came back an hour later :confused2: the form I had was new they had not seen it before. We were duly given Healthcare for two years. When I became autonomo the same office told me because I was foreign I couldn’t register for health as an autonomo. Two years on my Spanish had improved and once again my wishes were granted. 

I personally don’t hold out hope for either universal healthcare or cessation of CE as it makes no sense to me. Why give foreigners already paying into the system or private Free health on an already overburdened health system.


----------



## kaipa

Well Megsmum it isn't happening. It is not for ALL residents just some and those are not UK folk


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## MaryHinge

Just read this on another site, thought it might be of interest. Not particularly any detail in the response but the confirmation that the New Decree has arrived and starting to be already implemented by the Junta de Andalucia. Which does seem quite speedy compared to previous rules and regs. (actual link not posted as its from another forum and doing so I think is against the rules?)
--------------------------------

"Important Update 06/08/2018:

*Email response from the Andalucian Health Service to a member who enquired about registering for the “Convenio Especial”. (opt in payment to the NHS). Translated below.*

_In response to your message . we inform you that in Spain there has been a legislative change with the publication of Royal Decree-law 7/2018, of July 27, on universal access to the National Health System, which brings new considerations on public health coverage. Specifically, it modifies the access criteria to the National Health System charged to public funds, linking it to the residence in Spain. In your case, you could meet the stipulated requirements so that your right to health protection and the right to health care are recognised with charges to public funds. So we recommend you go to a Care and Information Centre of the National Institute of Social Security (INSS) to assess your request for health care, according to current legislation.
Un cordial saludo._

*This is positive as at least we see that the Junta de Andalucia accepts that the new royal decree which relates to healthcare entitlement from the public funds and includes those residents who are also EU citizens though have other options through their own regime*.


----------



## Elyles

MaryHinge said:


> Just read this on another site, thought it might be of interest. Not particularly any detail in the response but the confirmation that the New Decree has arrived and starting to be already implemented by the Junta de Andalucia. Which does seem quite speedy compared to previous rules and regs. (actual link not posted as its from another forum and doing so I think is against the rules?)
> 
> --------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> "Important Update 06/08/2018:
> 
> 
> 
> *Email response from the Andalucian Health Service to a member who enquired about registering for the “Convenio Especial”. (opt in payment to the NHS). Translated below.*
> 
> 
> 
> _In response to your message . we inform you that in Spain there has been a legislative change with the publication of Royal Decree-law 7/2018, of July 27, on universal access to the National Health System, which brings new considerations on public health coverage. Specifically, it modifies the access criteria to the National Health System charged to public funds, linking it to the residence in Spain. In your case, you could meet the stipulated requirements so that your right to health protection and the right to health care are recognised with charges to public funds. So we recommend you go to a Care and Information Centre of the National Institute of Social Security (INSS) to assess your request for health care, according to current legislation.
> 
> Un cordial saludo._
> 
> 
> 
> *This is positive as at least we see that the Junta de Andalucia accepts that the new royal decree which relates to healthcare entitlement from the public funds and includes those residents who are also EU citizens though have other options through their own regime*.




But my letter from Aragon said the opposite. 


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## Elyles

I want to bypass the Aragon office for information on this issue because I feel the person in charge does not have the facts yet. Who should I contact at the State level? Anyone have the contact data?


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## MaryHinge

Be interesting to hopefully find out the outcome of the person/s who initiated the email response from the Junta de Andalucia. At least it may shed some extra detail.


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## baldilocks

It might be a question of politics. The current government and Andalucía are both PSOE led, I don't know about Aragon...


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## Alcalaina

Elyles said:


> I want to bypass the Aragon office for information on this issue because I feel the person in charge does not have the facts yet. Who should I contact at the State level? Anyone have the contact data?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


No, because health and social care are administered at regional level. Have you looked at the Aragón government healthcare site? Servicio Aragonés de Salud - Departamentos y Organismos Públicos - Gobierno de Aragón


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## Elyles

Alcalaina said:


> No, because health and social care are administered at regional level. Have you looked at the Aragón government healthcare site? Servicio Aragonés de Salud - Departamentos y Organismos Públicos - Gobierno de Aragón








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## Elyles

*Free healthcare*



Elyles said:


> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk




Been there. I just can’t find contact info. Also, all laws stated are old.


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## Elyles

*Free healthcare*



Elyles said:


> Been there. I just can’t find contact info. Also, all laws stated are old.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> ! I am still trying to find out how to contact someone on the Salud site regarding accurate info on the new healthcare law. Please pm me with the info. This is strange because one minute a post was missing and now it is back. Wierd!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Pesky Wesky

Elyles said:


> This doesn’t make sense because the powers that be here deleted the info I was responding to. To me it doesn’t make sense because the info was about a government link and not advertising. Strange! I am still trying to find out how to contact someone on the Salud site regarding accurate info on the new healthcare law. Please pm me with the info.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


 I don't think it has been erased because a moderator leaves a message on the post and says why it was erased. Do you think you could have possibly not put the link in correctly? Try again


----------



## Elyles

Pesky Wesky said:


> I don't think it has been erased because a moderator leaves a message on the post and says why it was erased. Do you think you could have possibly not put the link in correctly? Try again




Something on Tapatalk screwed up!


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## Lynn R

For information to Elyles - I have just read a message in another place from someone resident in Andalucia who has been covered by the Convenio Especial for the past 16 months, saying that the payment they made on 1st August 2018 has been refunded to their bank account (without them having asked for a refund).


----------



## Elyles

Lynn R said:


> For information to Elyles - I have just read a message in another place from someone resident in Andalucia who has been covered by the Convenio Especial for the past 16 months, saying that the payment they made on 1st August 2018 has been refunded to their bank account (without them having asked for a refund).




That is good news for Andalucía. I can still find out nothing for Aragon. 


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## xabiaxica

Elyles said:


> That is good news for Andalucía. I can still find out nothing for Aragon.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I've just asked if this has happened to anyone in our area, on a local group - we're PSOE like Andalucía, as is Aragón. 

I can imagine PP controlled comunidades dragging their feet tbh, but not PSOE regions.


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## Elyles

*Free healthcare*



xabiachica said:


> I've just asked if this has happened to anyone in our area, on a local group - we're PSOE like Andalucía, as is Aragón.
> 
> 
> 
> I can imagine PP controlled comunidades dragging their feet tbh, but not PSOE regions.




The funcionario in Zaragoza may be dragging his feet. Hell, there are only two couples here in Aragon that are on Convenio Especial. It is hopeful but I am not holding my breath. It would be nice to get the farmacia discount as well. One never knows. The local INSS office here knows nothing. 


I still cannot find the healthcare office info contact on the web page for Aragon. The funcionario is just over the Convenio Especial. 

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## baldilocks

Elyles said:


> The funcionario in Zaragoza may be dragging his feet. Hell, there are only two couples here in Aragon that are on Convenio Especial. It is hopeful but I am not holding my breath. It would be nice to get the farmacia discount as well. One never knows. The local INSS office here knows nothing.
> 
> 
> I still cannot find the healthcare office info contact on the web page for Aragon. The funcionario is just over the Convenio Especial.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I always find the term Funcionario is a bit obscure since most of them do do not funcion, at least not very well.


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## Elyles

baldilocks said:


> I always find the term Funcionario is a bit obscure since most of them do do not funcion, at least not very well.




Agreed. It is sort of like many of the Spanish so called English instructors who can barely speak English. I just found an email address on the Saludinforma site called Attencion al Usario. I sent them an inquiry. Strange but the Main Healthcare office is in Zaragoza but this office is for the Huesca area. 


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## Rabbitcat

What's the latest on the changes to CE saga?

I note on another forum- specifically in the Andulucia region - several posters receiving recent refunds of their CE payment

I am just starting a years priv healthcare ( am 55) and was hoping at end of the years private care to move onto Valencias CE

The way i am reading it is CE is getting done away with hence the refunds for the payees to move to private system

Any thoughts?


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## xabiaxica

Rabbitcat said:


> What's the latest on the changes to CE saga?
> 
> I note on another forum- specifically in the Andulucia region - several posters receiving recent refunds of their CE payment
> 
> I am just starting a years priv healthcare ( am 55) and was hoping at end of the years private care to move onto Valencias CE
> 
> The way i am reading it is CE is getting done away with hence the refunds for the payees to move to private system
> 
> Any thoughts?


It isn't yet clear - but it looks as if after the first year you might be entitled to state healthcare under the universal healthcare rule.

Time will tell when the new rules settle in.


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## Rabbitcat

Ironically if that did turn out to be the case - although it would benefit me- i would find it grossly unfair

I sit on my fat foreign ass in someone else country whilst the locals worked and paid into a healthcare system- only for me to slide in there for free.

I do not think the Spanish are that daft nor offensive to their own population


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## xabiaxica

Rabbitcat said:


> Ironically if that did turn out to be the case - although it would benefit me- i would find it grossly unfair
> 
> I sit on my fat foreign ass in someone else country whilst the locals worked and paid into a healthcare system- only for me to slide in there for free.
> 
> I do not think the Spanish are that daft nor offensive to their own population


Even if I had never worked here I would already be entitled to free healthcare, simply because I was registered as a resident before April 24 2012 like 1000s of other foreigners.

Apparently it makes financial sense to offer free primary care than to end up paying for emergency care for those who can't afford to pay for it themselves.


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## stevesainty

https://www.talkradioeurope.com/on-demand/

Interesting program from 11.30 am of this 1 hour download.


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## Lynn R

Rabbitcat said:


> Ironically if that did turn out to be the case - although it would benefit me- i would find it grossly unfair
> 
> I sit on my fat foreign ass in someone else country whilst the locals worked and paid into a healthcare system- only for me to slide in there for free.
> 
> I do not think the Spanish are that daft nor offensive to their own population


But as I've said before on this subject, Portugal has already moved to the position of healthcare being solely residence based (and available to newcomers who have not contributed to the system), well before these new measures being introduced in Spain.


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## xabiaxica

Lynn R said:


> But as I've said before on this subject, Portugal has already moved to the position of healthcare being solely residence based (and available to newcomers who have not contributed to the system), well before these new measures being introduced in Spain.


And that's how it is in the UK, of course.

Those with legal permanent residency have full access to the NHS.


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## Lynn R

xabiachica said:


> And that's how it is in the UK, of course.
> 
> Those with legal permanent residency have full access to the NHS.


Except that people from outside the EU who move to the UK have to pay the annual NHS surcharge (which is being doubled this year) as well as the not inconsiderable cost of their visas, and they have to pay it in addition to National Insurance if they are working. I find that outrageous.

https://iasservices.org.uk/home-office-to-double-nhs-surcharge-to-400/


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## xabiaxica

Lynn R said:


> Except that people from outside the EU who move to the UK have to pay the annual NHS surcharge (which is being doubled this year) as well as the not inconsiderable cost of their visas, and they have to pay it in addition to National Insurance if they are working. * I find that outrageous.*
> 
> https://iasservices.org.uk/home-office-to-double-nhs-surcharge-to-400/


Me too. 

That's why I said permanent residency (PR). I understand that they stop paying at that point.


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## xabiaxica

stevesainty said:


> https://www.talkradioeurope.com/on-demand/
> 
> Interesting program from 11.30 am of this 1 hour download.


What a shame they didn't get someone official to discuss it. 

Then we might actually know.


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## Elyles

xabiachica said:


> What a shame they didn't get someone official to discuss it.
> 
> 
> 
> Then we might actually know.




The officials are mum right now


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## baldilocks

MaryHinge said:


> *Read the below elsewhere, seems Andalucia are on the ball*
> 
> "#50. Denise Mills said on Friday, August 10, 2018 at 17:35:35 CEST
> x
> So the good news!
> I have just had a letter via email for my husband and myself from the health service in Andalucia confirming we are entitled to healthcare paid for by public funds and a reduced prescription cost as well!
> Back ground is we are early retirees Brits living just outside Malaga, been resident since 2013. Obtained private healthcare to get residence certificate and then shifted to the Convenio Especial in 2015/6
> The letter confirmed we will not have to pay under the CE anymore.
> This was received by email after me enquiring as to our status in light of the new law. Original letters will be sent by post as well."


The question remains as to whether this only applies to those who were on CE or to anyone, i.e. other than state healthcare, there is no need to show healthcare provision to register as a resident.


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## kaipa

Snikpoh. I notice you were flamed unfairly for highlighting aspects of this debate on another forum. The same thing happened to me for simply posting a link. I admire your pleasant silence.


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## Elyles

baldilocks said:


> The question remains as to whether this only applies to those who were on CE or to anyone, i.e. other than state healthcare, there is no need to show healthcare provision to register as a resident.




I just talked with a government rep in nearby Huesca who says that the healthcare bill is a reality. 


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## Elyles

MaryHinge said:


> *Read the below elsewhere, seems Andalucia are on the ball*
> 
> "#50. Denise Mills said on Friday, August 10, 2018 at 17:35:35 CEST
> x
> So the good news!
> I have just had a letter via email for my husband and myself from the health service in Andalucia confirming we are entitled to healthcare paid for by public funds and a reduced prescription cost as well!
> Back ground is we are early retirees Brits living just outside Malaga, been resident since 2013. Obtained private healthcare to get residence certificate and then shifted to the Convenio Especial in 2015/6
> The letter confirmed we will not have to pay under the CE anymore.
> This was received by email after me enquiring as to our status in light of the new law. Original letters will be sent by post as well."




Great news but I am still an American and that is one reason I am on Convenio Especial. Like the British who received the email in Andalucía, We too have been residents since 2013, had private healthcare then shifted to the Convenio Especial. Still trying to find out if we qualify. My wife is an EU citizen and I received permanent residency status this year. The office in Zaragoza has ignored my requests for information.


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## xabiaxica

Elyles said:


> I just talked with a government rep in nearby Huesca who says that the healthcare bill is a reality.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Yes, it was passed on 27/7/18.


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## Elyles

xabiachica said:


> Yes, it was passed on 27/7/18.




I know it was passed the day following. What I meant to say was that my friend in Huesca told me that we qualify for it but I have nothing official yet I sent numerous requests for information to the office in Zaragoza that administers our Convenio Especial, with no response. The INSS office here also says that they know nothing. I am still searching information, thanks. 


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## Lynn R

kaipa said:


> Snikpoh. I notice you were flamed unfairly for highlighting aspects of this debate on another forum. The same thing happened to me for simply posting a link. I admire your pleasant silence.


If you are unhappy with the way you were treated on another forum, shouldn't you take it up there?

But I will say that I think you were criticised for opening your remarks with an admonition for people who do not share your interpretation of the new law not to spread "wild rumours" and misinformation, rather than for posting a link.


----------



## xabiaxica

Elyles said:


> I know it was passed the day following. What I meant to say was that my friend in Huesca told me that we qualify for it but I have nothing official yet I sent numerous requests for information to the office in Zaragoza that administers our Convenio Especial, with no response. The INSS office here also says that they know nothing. I am still searching information, thanks.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


As we've said, sometimes things take a while to filter through to local offices & local staff. 

I suspect that regions with a high % of foreigners might be more 'on the ball' when it comes to how this will affect them.


----------



## Elyles

xabiachica said:


> As we've said, sometimes things take a while to filter through to local offices & local staff.
> 
> 
> 
> I suspect that regions with a high % of foreigners might be more 'on the ball' when it comes to how this will affect them.




I realize this but it is my nature to dig for information. At first I thought it too good to be true but then searched around and satisfied myself. I guess you would call it journalistic mastur##tion?


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## Phil Squares

As I wrote previously, spoke with my solicitor who is in Madrid. They have been informed and have verified there is no longer a need to have insurance either through private healthcare or through a state-sponsored health plan which is transportable, such as the NHS (UK) S-1. 

As was pointed out to me in the conversation, the language seems pretty clear if anyone is legally in Spain, then they are covered by the SIP. 

The argument for the change was in the long run, having medical care for all will reduce the overall cost of care. While there might be an increase initially, the long-term costs will be reduced.


----------



## Lynn R

Phil Squares said:


> As I wrote previously, spoke with my solicitor who is in Madrid. They have been informed and have verified there is no longer a need to have insurance either through private healthcare or through a state-sponsored health plan which is transportable, such as the NHS (UK) S-1.
> 
> As was pointed out to me in the conversation, the language seems pretty clear if anyone is legally in Spain, then they are covered by the SIP.
> 
> The argument for the change was in the long run, having medical care for all will reduce the overall cost of care. While there might be an increase initially, the long-term costs will be reduced.


Sorry to press the point, but does this also mean that new arrivals will no longer have to demonstrate that they have adequate health cover in order to be able to register as residents, or will they (if not otherwise covered) still have to have private health insurance for their first year of residency? I think that's a point very many people are still confused about.

The other thing I'd be interested to know is, in the case of those people whose most recent contributions to the Convenio Especial have already been refunded, have they tried to make use of their tarjeta sanitaria since the refunds were received? If the INSS haven't yet got a system in place for accrediting people under the new law, might there be a danger that their existing cards get invalidated before replacements can be issued, leaving them in a very difficult position. Or perhaps they will just be left in place and people switched over to the new system automatically, which is what one would hope should happen. 

Imo it would have been so much better had an announcement been made that the new law would come into effect from 1 January 2019 and any changes to existing systems could have been integrated by then, so everybody would have known what would be happening instead of the headless chickens scenario.


----------



## Elyles

Lynn R said:


> Sorry to press the point, but does this also mean that new arrivals will no longer have to demonstrate that they have adequate health cover in order to be able to register as residents, or will they (if not otherwise covered) still have to have private health insurance for their first year of residency? I think that's a point very many people are still confused about.
> 
> 
> 
> The other thing I'd be interested to know is, in the case of those people whose most recent contributions to the Convenio Especial have already been refunded, have they tried to make use of their tarjeta sanitaria since the refunds were received? If the INSS haven't yet got a system in place for accrediting people under the new law, might there be a danger that their existing cards get invalidated before replacements can be issued, leaving them in a very difficult position. Or perhaps they will just be left in place and people switched over to the new system automatically, which is what one would hope should happen.
> 
> 
> 
> Imo it would have been so much better had an announcement been made that the new law would come into effect from 1 January 2019 and any changes to existing systems could have been integrated by then, so everybody would have known what would be happening instead of the headless chickens scenario.




Those of us on Convenio Especial only have a paper card that has our number as well as NOFARM listed. I just went to our clinic yesterday with no issues. I would imagine that the numbers themselves will be switched over. I want a real card in that case.


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## Megsmum

There’s another forum:eyebrows:


----------



## Elyles

Lynn R said:


> Sorry to press the point, but does this also mean that new arrivals will no longer have to demonstrate that they have adequate health cover in order to be able to register as residents, or will they (if not otherwise covered) still have to have private health insurance for their first year of residency? I think that's a point very many people are still confused about.
> 
> 
> 
> The other thing I'd be interested to know is, in the case of those people whose most recent contributions to the Convenio Especial have already been refunded, have they tried to make use of their tarjeta sanitaria since the refunds were received? If the INSS haven't yet got a system in place for accrediting people under the new law, might there be a danger that their existing cards get invalidated before replacements can be issued, leaving them in a very difficult position. Or perhaps they will just be left in place and people switched over to the new system automatically, which is what one would hope should happen.
> 
> 
> 
> Imo it would have been so much better had an announcement been made that the new law would come into effect from 1 January 2019 and any changes to existing systems could have been integrated by then, so everybody would have known what would be happening instead of the headless chickens scenario.




Also, an after the fact item is to start applying definitions to the law, then it will make sense. In the US, there is always an attachment to all government policies and laws that defines main concepts but this is done at the initial writing. 


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## andyviola

Lynn R said:


> Sorry to press the point, but does this also mean that new arrivals will no longer have to demonstrate that they have adequate health cover in order to be able to register as residents, or will they (if not otherwise covered) still have to have private health insurance for their first year of residency? I think that's a point very many people are still confused about..


can anyone answer this, as we thinking of moving to spain, and not sure at all on the above point...


----------



## Lynn R

andyviola said:


> can anyone answer this, as we thinking of moving to spain, and not sure at all on the above point...


I don't think it can be answered by any of us - we need to wait for more clarification from official sources. Up to now, as far as I am aware, there have not been any announcements that the requirements to register as a resident have been changed in any way.


----------



## andyviola

Lynn R said:


> I don't think it can be answered by any of us - we need to wait for more clarification from official sources. Up to now, as far as I am aware, there have not been any announcements that the requirements to register as a resident have been changed in any way.


Of course, early days. Thanks, yes as an early retiree thats gonna be darn awkward, registering for convenio especiale for a while to get NIE then de-registering .....I bet we'll have to though , given "nature of things" there


----------



## xabiaxica

andyviola said:


> Of course, early days. Thanks, yes as an early retiree thats gonna be darn awkward, registering for convenio especiale for a while to get NIE then de-registering .....I bet we'll have to though , given "nature of things" there


You couldn't have registered for the convenio especial until AFTER you had been a registered resident for 12 months.

In order to register, you need (until we know otherwise) private cover for the first 12 months.


----------



## Lynn R

andyviola said:


> Of course, early days. Thanks, yes as an early retiree thats gonna be darn awkward, registering for convenio especiale for a while to get NIE then de-registering .....I bet we'll have to though , given "nature of things" there


As a new arrival, you could not have registered for the Convenio Especial anyway - you needed to have been officially resident in Spain for one year before applying. For early retirees who will not be working or self-employed in Spain, private health insurance was (and as far as we can say today still is) the only way to meet the requirements to register as a resident.


----------



## andyviola

xabiachica said:


> You couldn't have registered for the convenio especial until AFTER you had been a registered resident for 12 months.
> 
> In order to register, you need (until we know otherwise) private cover for the first 12 months.


eek! And thats like £2500+ a year?


----------



## Lynn R

andyviola said:


> eek! And thats like £2500+ a year?


Not necessarily. My husband and I have had private health insurance for almost 10 years now. Our current premiums are €64 per month each (and my husband is now over 65 which is the age when many insurance companies hike the premiums, but ours doesn't). They paid for me to have open heart surgery (and 8 days in intensive care afterwards) a couple of months ago, along with all the monitoring and tests by cardiologists over the preceding 3 years.

That is with a smaller Spanish insurance company which only covers Málaga province and part of Córdoba province in Andalucia.


----------



## andyviola

Lynn R said:


> Not necessarily. My husband and I have had private health insurance for almost 10 years now. Our current premiums are €64 per month each (and my husband is now over 65 which is the age when many insurance companies hike the premiums, but ours doesn't). They paid for me to have open heart surgery (and 8 days in intensive care afterwards) a couple of months ago, along with all the monitoring and tests by cardiologists over the preceding 3 years.
> 
> That is with a smaller Spanish insurance company which only covers Málaga province and part of Córdoba province in Andalucia.


Ok thanks Lynn.

So you will be coming off private healthcare now that you resident and can claim the free healthcare?


----------



## Lynn R

andyviola said:


> Ok thanks Lynn.
> 
> So you will be coming off private healthcare now that you resident and can claim the free healthcare?


We have "free" healthcare anyway, in that we are covered by S1 forms from the UK as my husband is a UK state pensioner and I am covered as his dependent.

We have kept the private health insurance on anyway for a number of reasons. One being Brexit and the uncertainty as to whether, if there is no deal, the UK Government will continue to fund the healthcare of UK pensioners in Europe. As it stands, I would have to apply for an S1 in my own right once I become a state pensioner in 4 years' time. Because of things the UK Government has already done such as stopping residual S1s for people who move abroad whilst under retirement age (which we benefited from when we came here) and stopping winter fuel allowance for pensioners resident in most EU countries, both measures to save money, I have some misgivings as to whether the S1 would still be available to me in the future. On the other hand, if the political complexion of the Spanish Government changes in the future (and Sanchez heads a minority Government at present so who knows what will happen at the next general election) then this new universal healthcare provision might also be subject to change.

If I were to cancel my private health insurance, because I now have a serious pre-existing condition I would find it much more difficult and expensive to take out a new policy should any of these things come to pass. So no, I won't be cancelling it for the forseeable future. It's not a huge expense for us, and also has advantages like shorter waiting times and a private room in hospital (although some newer Spanish public hospitals also now have single ensuite rooms). I don't smoke and drink very little alcohol so would prefer to spend the money on something that gives me peace of mind, as a back-up to public healthcare at least.


----------



## andyviola

I confess to being incredibly confused.
After 3 months I would fill out an E19 to apply for Residency (as wife is Polish citizen and EU citizen)
Bottom of this form says: □ The undersigned declare, responsibly, that they have health insurance that provides coverage in Spain for their period of residence, which is equivalent to that which is provided by the National Health System.

So we would need private health insurance, but then what happens when i have residency confirmed? Can I drop the private insuarnce and use their Free health care, as a Resident?


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## Lynn R

andyviola said:


> I confess to being incredibly confused.
> After 3 months I would fill out an E19 to apply for Residency (as wife is Polish citizen and EU citizen)
> Bottom of this form says: □ The undersigned declare, responsibly, that they have health insurance that provides coverage in Spain for their period of residence, which is equivalent to that which is provided by the National Health System.
> 
> So we would need private health insurance, but then what happens when i have residency confirmed? Can I drop the private insuarnce and use their Free health care, as a Resident?


The form you fill in to register as a resident is EX-18.

When you take out private health insurance you are committed to paying the premiums for a full year, so it can't be cancelled until then. You need to give notice of cancellation in writing, it used to be at least two months before the renewal date but I think that may have changed to one month.

Again, we need to wait for further official clarification before your question as to whether you will be able to rely on public healthcare after that first year of residency can be answered.


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## Rabbitcat

Lynn some companies only sell health ins Jan to Dec so buying now you are only tied in for 4 months


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## Pesky Wesky

Lynn R said:


> We have "free" healthcare anyway, in that we are covered by S1 forms from the UK as my husband is a UK state pensioner and I am covered as his dependent.
> 
> We have kept the private health insurance on anyway for a number of reasons. One being Brexit and the uncertainty as to whether, if there is no deal, the UK Government will continue to fund the healthcare of UK pensioners in Europe. As it stands, I would have to apply for an S1 in my own right once I become a state pensioner in 4 years' time. Because of things the UK Government has already done such as stopping residual S1s for people who move abroad whilst under retirement age (which we benefited from when we came here) and stopping winter fuel allowance for pensioners resident in most EU countries, both measures to save money, I have some misgivings as to whether the S1 would still be available to me in the future. On the other hand, if the political complexion of the Spanish Government changes in the future (and Sanchez heads a minority Government at present so who knows what will happen at the next general election) then this new universal healthcare provision might also be subject to change.
> 
> If I were to cancel my private health insurance, because I now have a serious pre-existing condition I would find it much more difficult and expensive to take out a new policy should any of these things come to pass. So no, I won't be cancelling it for the forseeable future. It's not a huge expense for us, and also has advantages like shorter waiting times and a private room in hospital (although some newer Spanish public hospitals also now have single ensuite rooms). I don't smoke and drink very little alcohol so would prefer to spend the money on something that gives me peace of mind, as a back-up to public healthcare at least.


 Great reasoning and sounds like you have good insurance cover. 

There are 2 new hospitals near us and yes, they tend to have spacious rooms with en suite bathroom and sofa bed if someone wants to stay the night with the patient.
The bit I have highlighted in blue needs be emphasised imo as healthcare has been offered and taken away again in the past, so it can happen and the PSOE and PP do not see eye to eye on this I think.


----------



## andyviola

Lynn R said:


> The form you fill in to register as a resident is EX-18..


I am not sure as a Brit I will be a EU citizen by the time our house sells lol 

from faq anyways...

EX18 for a residence resigration certificate for EU citizens http://extranjeros.empleo.gob.es/es/...omunitaria.pdf

EX19 for residence card for non-EU family members of EU citizens resident in Spain http://extranjeros.empleo.gob.es/es/...omunitario.pdf


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## xabiaxica

andyviola said:


> I am not sure as a Brit I will be a EU citizen by the time our house sells lol
> 
> from faq anyways...
> 
> EX18 for a residence resigration certificate for EU citizens http://extranjeros.empleo.gob.es/es/...omunitaria.pdf
> 
> EX19 for residence card for non-EU family members of EU citizens resident in Spain http://extranjeros.empleo.gob.es/es/...omunitario.pdf


Good point!

If that were to be the case, you would need to apply* before *the 3 months is up. 

Your wife would first have to register, & once she is registered, you'd then apply.


----------



## andyviola

Lynn R said:


> The form you fill in to register as a resident is EX-18.
> 
> When you take out private health insurance you are committed to paying the premiums for a full year, so it can't be cancelled until then. You need to give notice of cancellation in writing, it used to be at least two months before the renewal date but I think that may have changed to one month.
> 
> Again, we need to wait for further official clarification before your question as to whether you will be able to rely on public healthcare after that first year of residency can be answered.





xabiachica said:


> Good point!
> 
> If that were to be the case, you would need to apply* before *the 3 months is up.
> 
> Your wife would first have to register, & once she is registered, you'd then apply.


thanks so much !
as always, only tons of questions get me anywhere near un-confused


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## Elyles

andyviola said:


> thanks so much !
> 
> as always, only tons of questions get me anywhere near un-confused




There are lots of confusing questions on this issue. Today I went by the local government office for more info but was referred back to INSS who said they were still waiting for more info. Like stated here, there is still no indication that anything will change and it might remain Status quo. I have recently read data that says this issue is only regarding the illegal immigrants. And, it would be a royal pain in the ass to switch from the Convenio Especial to the regular healthcare and have to return if and when the government switches parties. 


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## xabiaxica

Rabbitcat said:


> Lynn some companies only sell health ins Jan to Dec so buying now you are only tied in for 4 months


I didn't know that!


----------



## Elyles

And, my wife read yesterday that the autonomous governments will have to decide the requirements to apply still. I image that is why our local INSS doesn’t know anything at this point. 


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## Rabbitcat

xabiachica said:


> I didn't know that!



Ah but I am a looooong time resident in Spain- 22 days to be exact

Anything you need to know don't hesitate to ask


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## baldilocks

Rabbitcat said:


> *Ah but I am a looooong time resident in Spain- 22 days to be exact*


No you're not, you are in Kiribati.


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## Rabbitcat

Another newbie mistake

Never believe all you read on Spanish forums

You too Baldi, if you need any help feel free to tap into my weeks of indepth experience here


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## Elyles

Megsmum said:


> There’s another forum:eyebrows:




Agreed, there is another forum but I got into a world of crap from trying to circumvent the rules on this one. Right now I need the info here. It ain’t worth it


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## Elyles

DawnColin said:


> Its early days for us in our planning etc so I have no plans to change anything unless a lawyer tells me at the time that I don't need it :fingerscrossed:
> 
> We will go ahead with private health care initially for 12 months and then we will have time to sort out what happens after that. If there is anything that filters through in the meantime then it will be an interesting subject, especially with the complications of the 'B' word and no one having any clue about that either




Pay close attention to cancellation clauses in your policy. 


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## Elyles

As Baldi implied previously, the term funcionario is an oxymoron. I contacted our office for the Convenio Especial and received a note back that basically said that the new law does not apply to all residents. He has not returned any emails since then. Since then I translated every word of the new decree and found out that it is designed to cover everyone. Everywhere else I read also says it covers every RESIDENT of Spain, basically rewriting the prior to 2012 law. Somebody is wrong here. I wonder if I should bother the office by phone? I am positive Aragon will devise something soon, as required by the Decree. Sorry, but things like this turn on my obsession switch. 


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## andyviola

Elyles said:


> As Baldi implied previously, the term funcionario is an oxymoron. I contacted our office for the Convenio Especial and received a note back that basically said that the new law does not apply to all residents. He has not returned any emails since then. Since then I translated every word of the new decree and found out that it is designed to cover everyone. Everywhere else I read also says it covers every RESIDENT of Spain, basically rewriting the prior to 2012 law. Somebody is wrong here. I wonder if I should bother the office by phone? I am positive Aragon will devise something soon, as required by the Decree. Sorry, but things like this turn on my obsession switch.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


scared by the time they get their stories straight the minority government will lose power


----------



## Elyles

Phil Squares said:


> Eyeles,
> 
> I guess I would argue otherwise. I read the new legislation both the Spanish and translated version. I don't see where the no coverage comes from. The issue, as I see it, is if you are legally registered as a resident.
> 
> I also spoke to my attorney in Madrid today on another issue, but their take is once my wife retires from teaching here, if we elect to stay we would be covered. there is no obligation or requirement to obtain private insurance or other coverage.
> 
> But, this is Spain, one person says yes and the other person could say no! But the attorney seems very certain the intent was to go back to the pre 2012 status.
> 
> Time will tell.




I agree with the return to pre 2012 status intent. I just read it word for word. The funcionario who sent me the note regarding it not covering all residents was wrong. He manages Convenio Especial for Aragon and the law clearly states that those on Convenio Especial qualify. Interesting. I am curious to see what comes out here.


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## Elyles

andyviola said:


> scared by the time they get their stories straight the minority government will lose power




I decided to let it go for a bit. 


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## Elyles

andyviola said:


> scared by the time they get their stories straight the minority government will lose power




Also Andy, free Universal healthcare has been in this country more than not for many decades. In 2012 Rajoy decided that it cost too much and it was still supposed to be easily accesible. The INSS decided that they were going to play by their own rules though. If I am in error, please correct me. I took this directly from what our President calls Fake News. 


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## kaipa

Yes. It is important to remember that we were always meant to have health care but INSS interpreted things differently. I think this was actually challenged legally at one stage. This is what makes all this new stuff difficult to know what will happen. At the moment though you still need to show you have health care cover as a requirement for residency and the present government don't appear to have officially suggested this isn't the case.


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## Elyles

kaipa said:


> Yes. It is important to remember that we were always meant to have health care but INSS interpreted things differently. I think this was actually challenged legally at one stage. This is what makes all this new stuff difficult to know what will happen. At the moment though you still need to show you have health care cover as a requirement for residency and the present government don't appear to have officially suggested this isn't the case.




Many areas of the current government are still uninformed


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## Lynn R

Have just seen a first hand report elsewhere that a UK citizen resident in Andalucia has received an official letter today (certificado delivery) that he no longer needs to pay for the Convenio Especial as the circumstances of the original grant meet the criteria for the new healthcare decree (ie, he is no longer entitled to healthcare in his own country as he supplied the "legislation letter"). This is the same person who received a refund recently of the August cuota for the Convenio Especial. The letter also advises that he no longer needs to pay 100% of the costs of medication.

Therefore, it seems certain now that UK citizens (and indeed other legally resident foreigners) in these circumstances CAN benefit from the new decree, although it remains to be seen whether there will be any changes to the requirements to register as a foreign resident.


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## Elyles

Lynn R said:


> Have just seen a first hand report elsewhere that a UK citizen resident in Andalucia has received an official letter today (certificado delivery) that he no longer needs to pay for the Convenio Especial as the circumstances of the original grant meet the criteria for the new healthcare decree (ie, he is no longer entitled to healthcare in his own country as he supplied the "legislation letter"). This is the same person who received a refund recently of the August cuota for the Convenio Especial. The letter also advises that he no longer needs to pay 100% of the costs of medication.
> 
> 
> 
> Therefore, it seems certain now that UK citizens (and indeed other legally resident foreigners) in these circumstances CAN benefit from the new decree, although it remains to be seen whether there will be any changes to the requirements to register as a foreign resident.




Great but with the report that Autonomous communities are
having their attorneys look at the new Decree is unsettling. I like many are wondering if they are trying to wiggle out of it? It seems that in 2012 the attorneys for the INSS simply disallowed non Spanish citizens to get free healthcare when it was supposed to be just immigrants. I have picked apart the recent decree and it clearly qualifies those of us on the Convenio. I have tried to contact the Aragon offices of Convenio Especial as well as the Health Authorities by email since August 1 with no response. I am going to give the benefit of doubt and say it is just because it is August. Here in Aragon the INSS is just saying they know nothing yet. 


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## Lynn R

Elyles said:


> Great but with the report that Autonomous communities are
> having their attorneys look at the new Decree is unsettling. I like many are wondering if they are trying to wiggle out of it? It seems that in 2012 the attorneys for the INSS simply disallowed non Spanish citizens to get free healthcare when it was supposed to be just immigrants. I have picked apart the recent decree and it clearly qualifies those of us on the Convenio. I have tried to contact the Aragon offices of Convenio Especial as well as the Health Authorities by email since August 1 with no response. I am going to give the benefit of doubt and say it is just because it is August. Here in Aragon the INSS is just saying they know nothing yet.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I actually feel rather sorry for the staff in the Health Authorities of the autonomous regions and the INSS because they have had this decree issued with no notice period to allow for implementation policies and procedures to be developed, which is a recipe for chaos.


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## Elyles

Lynn R said:


> I actually feel rather sorry for the staff in the Health Authorities of the autonomous regions and the INSS because they have had this decree issued with no notice period to allow for implementation policies and procedures to be developed, which is a recipe for chaos.




Agreed, our INSS has been clueless. In Texas we would say “like a chicken with their head cut off”. 


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## xabiaxica

Elyles said:


> Great but with the report that Autonomous communities are
> having their attorneys look at the new Decree is unsettling. I like many are wondering if they are trying to wiggle out of it? It seems that in 2012 the attorneys for the INSS simply disallowed non Spanish citizens to get free healthcare when it was supposed to be just immigrants. I have picked apart the recent decree and it clearly qualifies those of us on the Convenio. I have tried to contact the Aragon offices of Convenio Especial as well as the Health Authorities by email since August 1 with no response. I am going to give the benefit of doubt and say it is just because it is August. Here in Aragon the INSS is just saying they know nothing yet.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


in 2012 anyone legally resident before April 24 (the legislation took effect in October) became eligible for healthcare - according to the INSS. There was a legal challenge which unsurprisinglly failed. 

When the legislation came into effect I interpreted it the same way as the INSS, btw.

I suspect something similar might happen here in some comunidades - as I posted way back in the thread. Though my interpretaion is that all legally registered residents are covered. 

I'd be surprised if PSOE run comunidades tried to wriggle out of it in that way though. It will be interesting to see how this pans out.


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## Elyles

xabiachica said:


> in 2012 anyone legally resident before April 24 (the legislation took effect in October) became eligible for healthcare - according to the INSS. There was a legal challenge which unsurprisinglly failed.
> 
> 
> 
> When the legislation came into effect I interpreted it the same way as the INSS, btw.
> 
> 
> 
> I suspect something similar might happen here in some comunidades - as I posted way back in the thread. Though my interpretaion is that all legally registered residents are covered.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd be surprised if PSOE run comunidades tried to wriggle out of it in that way though. It will be interesting to see how this pans out.




Our community is PSOE


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## xabiaxica

Elyles said:


> Our community is PSOE
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I suspect that they really, genuinely don't know what to do yet. As you say, there are very few on the convenio especial where you live.


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## Elyles

xabiachica said:


> I suspect that they really, genuinely don't know what to do yet. As you say, there are very few on the convenio especial where you live.




In our city there are just me and the mujer. 


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## Megsmum

Elyles said:


> In our city there are just me and the mujer.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


How do you find out who is and isn’t on the CE


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## MaryHinge

Elyles said:


> In Aragon there are only 4 people on it. Not much income here
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I am very surprised that in a region with a population in excess of 1.3 million that only 4 people were on the CE.


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## Megsmum

MaryHinge said:


> I am very surprised that in a region with a population in excess of 1.3 million that only 4 people were on the CE.


Would depend on how many foreigners there are. Spaniards won’t be on the CE


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## MaryHinge

Very true, but I read somewhere that there were over 130 thousand foreign residents in Aragon in comparison to around 200 thousand in Murcia. So to me 4 seemed a very low figure.


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## Elyles

MaryHinge said:


> Very true, but I read somewhere that there were over 130 thousand foreign residents in Aragon in comparison to around 200 thousand in Murcia. So to me 4 seemed a very low figure.




When we registered four years ago 4 was what we were told


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## Elyles

MaryHinge said:


> Very true, but I read somewhere that there were over 130 thousand foreign residents in Aragon in comparison to around 200 thousand in Murcia. So to me 4 seemed a very low figure.




I doubt seriously there is that percentage of the overall percentage as extranjeros here. And too, many will be working legally as well. 


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## Elyles

Elyles said:


> I doubt seriously there is that percentage of the overall percentage as extranjeros here. And too, many will be working legally as well.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk




I just did some research. The overall population of Aragon is 1,317,000 of which 2% is foreign which comes out to 26,340. This is a far cry from 140,000. Who knows how many of those are on the CE?The largest migrant populations in Spain are from Morocco, Rumania, and Great Britain. The highest population with all migrants is in Andalucía.


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## Elyles

Elyles said:


> I just did some research. The overall population of Aragon is 1,317,000 of which 2% is foreign which comes out to 26,340. This is a far cry from 140,000. Who knows how many of those are on the CE?The largest migrant populations in Spain are from Morocco, Rumania, and Great Britain. The highest population with all migrants is in Andalucía.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk




And I’m thinking that the reason Andalucía has a lot of press on the Convenio being abandoned is because they have such a large population of migrants forced to abuse the emergency care system. Just a guess.


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## kaipa

I thought the CE was more than just something to cover healthcare for foreigners?


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## MaryHinge

Elyles said:


> I just did some research. The overall population of Aragon is 1,317,000 of which 2% is foreign which comes out to 26,340. This is a far cry from 140,000. Who knows how many of those are on the CE?The largest migrant populations in Spain are from Morocco, Rumania, and Great Britain. The highest population with all migrants is in Andalucía.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Well the figures below reflect what I posted, and Catalunya has the highest number followed by Madrid then Andalucia 

https://ugeo.urbistat.com/AdminStat/en/es/demografia/stranieri/aragon/2/2


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## Elyles

MaryHinge said:


> Well the figures below reflect what I posted, and Catalunya has the highest number followed by Madrid then Andalucia
> 
> 
> 
> https://ugeo.urbistat.com/AdminStat/en/es/demografia/stranieri/aragon/2/2




Interesting but I was posting migrants. I don’t know how this site defines foreigners. Also, many are employed and others have been here for many years and are already in the system. I guess in regards to foreigners also, many receive reciprocal healthcare from their own countries. Many also won’t qualify for the Convenio. Lots of stats. (My favorite subject in grad school)

https://www.ine.es/en/prensa/cp_j2017_p_en.pdf


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## Megsmum

Only 31,000 foreigners in my area which is the size of Switzerland and mainly Dutch German and others


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## Alcalaina

Megsmum said:


> Would depend on how many foreigners there are. Spaniards won’t be on the CE


They might be, especially if they haven't made enough SS contributions.

https://revista.seg-social.es/2018/01/12/el-convenio-especial-con-la-seguridad-social/


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## Alcalaina

Elyles said:


> And I’m thinking that the reason Andalucía has a lot of press on the Convenio being abandoned is because they have such a large population of migrants forced to abuse the emergency care system. Just a guess.


I assume you are referring to undocumented immigrants? They aren't "forced to abuse" anything. Emergency care has always been available, even before the recent change in the law.


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## Megsmum

Alcalaina said:


> They might be, especially if they haven't made enough SS contributions.
> 
> https://revista.seg-social.es/2018/01/12/el-convenio-especial-con-la-seguridad-social/


But I thought all Spanish were entitled to healthcare now.


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## xabiaxica

Megsmum said:


> But I thought all Spanish were entitled to healthcare now.


Me too - & have been since 2012.

That link seems to be talking about a different convenio. 

It reads as if a minimal 'payment' is taken from the paro.


----------



## Elyles

Alcalaina said:


> I assume you are referring to undocumented immigrants? They aren't "forced to abuse" anything. Emergency care has always been available, even before the recent change in the law.




Emergency care has been available but is very costly. Lots has been written recently about the migrants, with no coverage, using the emergency care system and the new Royal Decree actually saving some money in this respect. 


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## kaipa

No. C E is not just something for us. It is a type of top up for Spanish who have gaps in SS payments. This is why I don't understand quite how this debate works. Is the system abolished entirely or is it just the part for foreigners? Maybe I am wrong as one poster is flaming me for just offering my thoughts on this. So correct me if I am wrong g but don't get all angry and personal


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## Elyles

xabiachica said:


> Me too - & have been since 2012.




I thought since 1986? Guess I need to reread some history. 


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## Elyles

kaipa said:


> No. C E is not just something for us. It is a type of top up for Spanish who have gaps in SS payments. This is why I don't understand quite how this debate works. Is the system abolished entirely or is it just the part for foreigners? Maybe I am wrong as one poster is flaming me for just offering my thoughts on this. So correct me if I am wrong g but don't get all angry and personal




And I always thought it was available to those who have no access to other coverage. Of course, that only applies to us.


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## xabiaxica

Elyles said:


> I thought since 1986? Guess I need to reread some history.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Yes... but it has been stopped & started again almost each time there's a change in govt. 

Before the 2012 change, many Spaniards weren't covered unless they had made sufficient SS payments. 

I don't know when the previous change was - possibly 2003.


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## Elyles

*Convenio Especial no longer available*



xabiachica said:


> Yes... but it has been stopped & started again almost each time there's a change in govt.
> 
> 
> 
> Before the 2012 change, many Spaniards weren't covered unless they had made sufficient SS payments.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know when the previous change was - possibly 2003.




What did the people like us do? Were we just grandfathered in once we had it? It seems so since those from prior to 2012 still have it.


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## xabiaxica

Elyles said:


> What did the people like us do? Were we just grandfathered in once we had it? It seems so since those from prior to 2012 still have it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I can't remember exactly when, but since we came in 2003.

Valencia, where I live, had universal healthcare, & then at some point it was stopped & many people (immigrants & Spanish nationals) who had previously had access found that their_ tarjetas sanitaria_ were no longer valid because they hadn't paid any SS contributions & their income was too high for them to qualify 'sin recursos'. They had to take out private healthcare. 


Once the 'pay in' convenio especial' was introduced, the immigrants switched to that. Spanish nationals didn't have to, & neither did anyone registered as resident before April 24 2012.


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## Megsmum

I’m laughing at the thread, in a polite manner, for no other reason that no one has the true answer to any of the questions. It’s all thoughts and suppositions. We just need to someone to go and register and actually try and get healthcare under the new regime 

Any volunteers


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## MaryHinge

Megsmum said:


> I’m laughing at the thread, in a polite manner, for no other reason that no one has the true answer to any of the questions. It’s all thoughts and suppositions. We just need to someone to go and register and actually try and get healthcare under the new regime
> 
> Any volunteers


Post #57 does cite an example of someones recent personal experience.


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## Elyles

MaryHinge said:


> Post #57 does cite an example of someones recent personal experience.




I am happy for the people in Andalucía but would be happier for the couple of Americans in Aragon. At this point nobody with the local INSS knows anything. The Convenio Especial office as incorrect info as of Aug 3. And, the Dept of Salud as well as the Convenio Especial office are not returning emails. I would imagine that no information is even developed at this point. Most areas of the government were hit with a rock on this issue and caught off guard. Can you imagine the thoughts of some government officials and planners who were on a real vacation with no office contact and came back to this mess? Jodo!


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## Megsmum

Lynn R said:


> Have just seen a first hand report elsewhere that a UK citizen resident in Andalucia has received an official letter today (certificado delivery) that he no longer needs to pay for the Convenio Especial as the circumstances of the original grant meet the criteria for the new healthcare decree (ie, he is no longer entitled to healthcare in his own country as he supplied the "legislation letter"). This is the same person who received a refund recently of the August cuota for the Convenio Especial. The letter also advises that he no longer needs to pay 100% of the costs of medication.
> 
> Therefore, it seems certain now that UK citizens (and indeed other legally resident foreigners) in these circumstances CAN benefit from the new decree, although it remains to be seen whether there will be any changes to the requirements to register as a foreign resident.





MaryHinge said:


> Post #57 does cite an example of someones recent personal experience.


Nope

It says they’ve been told they no longer need to pay which is not the same as going to the INSS and getting their tarjeta. Until I actually see written evidence that people are being supplied with documentation stating they are entitled to free at the point of use healthcare and actually using th system and getting the cards I’ll hold back on saying it’s happening


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## Elyles

Megsmum said:


> Nope
> 
> 
> 
> It says they’ve been told they no longer need to pay which is not the same as going to the INSS and getting their tarjeta. Until I actually see written evidence that people are being supplied with documentation stating they are entitled to free at the point of use healthcare and actually using th system and getting the cards I’ll hold back on saying it’s happening




Well said


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## Elyles

Elyles said:


> Well said
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk




Yeah, another forum is saying stuff that looks positive but that forum reportedly has a history of being in error. In the US car business there is a process of sales reward called CIF (Cash in Fist). When you win it, you know it is there. I want to believe this Decree will come to fruition and am hopeful that it well but everything takes time with the Spanish government. What may pan out in one community won’t necessarily be so in another. Right now all we know for certain is that the Royal Decree was passed and we should have read it for content. We also know that the autonomous communities have been empowered to write policy to make it happen. We have no news of anything really happening yet. 


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## kaipa

Totally agree with Megsmum. There are too many leaps of faith at the moment. Until you are issued with a new card no one can say it has happened. As far as things stand at the moment nothing has changed unless you are an undocumented immigrant. I think I am right in saying that and it is not misinformation?


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## Elyles

*Convenio Especial no longer available*



kaipa said:


> Totally agree with Megsmum. There are too many leaps of faith at the moment. Until you are issued with a new card no one can say it has happened. As far as things stand at the moment nothing has changed unless you are an undocumented immigrant. I think I am right in saying that and it is not misinformation?




Not totally. I have read verified reports of people in Andalucía losing Convenio Especial, having payments rebated to their banks and receiving emails of their qualifying with details to follow. Of course, there are more Migrants in this community than elsewhere but I am talking about Brits. Personally I only have an email from my Convenio rep. in Zaragoza stating that the new law does not apply to all residents in Spain. He has not responded to any of my further many questions by Email either. My friend at the local INSS will call or email me when they receive info. Nobody really knows what to expect. Since there is another report that the local communities have their attorneys looking at the law, I am a bit less hopeful because I don’t trust attorneys. It may end up just being like it was in 2012 when the INSS just interpreted the last change in their favor. 


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## Elyles

I received this this morning from the Health Department. It is the first news I have received from my sending emails. It doesn’t say much but is positive in that it will happen. 

Buenos días, Sr.

Como usted sabe, compete a las comunidades autónomas el procedimiento para la solicitud y expedición de acreditación en aplicación de lo previsto en el art 3 ter.

Por lo tanto, depende del procedimiento que establezca el organismo competente en la materia de la comunidad autónoma, que dará información respecto a su aplicación.

Un saludo
English translation below


On Fri, 17 Aug 2018 11:17:34 +0200 Ed lyles wrote:

¿Cuándo se implementará la nueva ley en Aragón? Nuestro INSS local no sabe nada todavía.


As you know, the procedure for the application and issuing of accreditation in application of the provisions of article 3 ter is the responsibility of the Autonomous Communities.



It therefore depends on the procedure established by the competent body in the area of the autonomous community, which will provide information regarding its application.



A greeting


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## Megsmum

It appears many people have had the no more charging letter. I’ve still to see evidence that


A) they don’t have to reregister 
B) they have healthcards


----------



## MaryHinge

Megsmum said:


> It appears many people have had the no more charging letter. I’ve still to see evidence that
> 
> 
> A) they don’t have to reregister
> B) they have healthcards


One couple on the same thread state they went a couple of weeks ago registered and have already received their cards.


----------



## Elyles

Megsmum said:


> It appears many people have had the no more charging letter. I’ve still to see evidence that
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A) they don’t have to reregister
> 
> B) they have healthcards




Hell, they have to register with INSS to get cards. Each community will issue their own requirements and I doubt there will be much difference between them. The ball IS rolling


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## cermignano

When it does happen, it could sway where people would want to move to. Depending on the definition of the various areas, I would be looking for the best deal


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## Elyles

maureensco said:


> When it does happen, it could sway where people would want to move to. Depending on the definition of the various areas, I would be looking for the best deal




It has to exist and I doubt there will be much difference between communities. The Brits will still move to the South, no matter what. And, they are one of the most populous migrant groups here.


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## Megsmum

Elyles said:


> Hell, they have to register with INSS to get cards. Each community will issue their own requirements and I doubt there will be much difference between them. The ball IS rolling
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk





maureensco said:


> When it does happen, it could sway where people would want to move to. Depending on the definition of the various areas, I would be looking for the best deal


Well we don’t have convenio especial here, so it’s not actually that universal already


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## Elyles

Megsmum said:


> Well we don’t have convenio especial here, so it’s not actually that universal already




The CE is just one clause. Read the law. I translated it in its entirety. The law itself says much.


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## Megsmum

Elyles said:


> The CE is just one clause. Read the law. I translated it in its entirety. The law itself says much.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I know that, BUT each region is autonomous so we do not have CE and I suspect we won’t get universal healthcare either.


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## MaryHinge

Megsmum said:


> I know that, BUT each region is autonomous so we do not have CE and I suspect we won’t get universal healthcare either.


I think you are not correct in saying Extemadura did/does not have CE?. see article 4


http://www.juntaex.es/filescms/con05/uploaded_files/ProyectoDecreto/Borrador_de_la_Orden.pdf


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## Megsmum

MaryHinge said:


> I think you are not correct in saying Extemadura did/does not have CE?. see article 4
> 
> 
> http://www.juntaex.es/filescms/con05/uploaded_files/ProyectoDecreto/Borrador_de_la_Orden.pdf


Regardless of what it says it’s impossible to get here UNLESS you are a returning Spaniard with no social security payments. 

It may have changed it though he last year. But up until last year it was impossible I know because I have clients who were unable to get it.

When we arrived we even had a fight about the S1 forms. Not everywhere in Spain is compliant 

I have recently contacted my lawyer here who on her return from holiday will be contacting the INSS.


----------



## Elyles

Megsmum said:


> I know that, BUT each region is autonomous so we do not have CE and I suspect we won’t get universal healthcare either.




Look back at before 2012 in your area. The new law basically reneged on the 2012 law where the INSS took it into their own hands and required Social Security payments to qualify.


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## Alcalaina

[duplicate]


----------



## Alcalaina

Megsmum said:


> I know that, BUT each region is autonomous so we do not have CE and I suspect we won’t get universal healthcare either.


You are right - despite what is decided nationally, autonomous communities (Andalucia, Valencia etc) do vary considerably in how they put policy into practice. Andalucia never implemented the PP law denying free non-urgent healthcare to undocumented migrants, for example.


----------



## Elyles

Alcalaina said:


> You are right - despite what is decided nationally, autonomous communities (Andalucia, Valencia etc) do vary considerably in how they put policy into practice. Andalucia never implemented the PP law denying free non-urgent healthcare to undocumented migrants, for example.




I do not know if Aragon did or not.


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## Elyles

And now we wait. Now I am now not so concerned as Aragon is PSOE. I must admit that the Malaga action to do away with CE created some anticipation on my part, I should have remembered that this is August. Most of Zaragoza is on vacation and nothing will get done. 


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## Elyles

DawnColin said:


> Its early days for us in our planning etc so I have no plans to change anything unless a lawyer tells me at the time that I don't need it :fingerscrossed:
> 
> We will go ahead with private health care initially for 12 months and then we will have time to sort out what happens after that. If there is anything that filters through in the meantime then it will be an interesting subject, especially with the complications of the 'B' word and no one having any clue about that either




Keep in mind that the Public system has waiting lists for non emergent care. Also, if you have or develop a preexisting condition while Private, then go Public, you cannot return to a Private.


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## Elyles

*Convenio Especial no longer available*



kaipa said:


> Snikpoh. I notice you were flamed unfairly for highlighting aspects of this debate on another forum. The same thing happened to me for simply posting a link. I admire your pleasant silence.[/
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalko


----------



## Phil Squares

Elyles said:


> Keep in mind that the Public system has waiting lists for non emergent care. Also, if you have or develop a preexisting condition while Private, then go Public, you cannot return to a Private.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


That is not quite true. The condition itself would not be covered by private health insurance, just like it would be if you were purchasing private insurance prior to arriving in Spain. Should you leave private health insurance and subsequently want to get cover again, the condition which developed while you were not covered would be excluded.


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## Elyles

Phil Squares said:


> That is not quite true. The condition itself would not be covered by private health insurance, just like it would be if you were purchasing private insurance prior to arriving in Spain. Should you leave private health insurance and subsequently want to get cover again, the condition which developed while you were not covered would be excluded.




They have come quite a ways since I last looked at Private. I had Sanitas for two years and when they jacked up our rates four fold when we turned 65, we went on Convenio Especial. We have received excellent care in the Spanish System


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## Lynn R

Elyles said:


> They have come quite a ways since I last looked at Private. I had Sanitas for two years and when they jacked up our rates four fold when we turned 65, we went on Convenio Especial. We have received excellent care in the Spanish System
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Depends which company you choose. Ours did not increase the premiums at all when my husband turned 65, he will be 69 this year and we still haven't had more than the normal small annual increase.


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## Elyles

Lynn R said:


> Depends which company you choose. Ours did not increase the premiums at all when my husband turned 65, he will be 69 this year and we still haven't had more than the normal small annual increase.




You win some, you lose some. I’:m just glad I don’t have to deal with US insurance companies.


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## Elyles

I wonder if anyone has heard of any progress besides Andalucía?
We are closely watching bank direct withdrawals for non withdrawal of Convenio. I also wonder that since the Royal Decree states that the Convenio ended on Aug 1 that if the communities can alter the date and just keep what is paid in? Well, tomorrow is September and we in other communities should start seeing some action in re to the admission process to the system. Of course, everything is just suppositions right now. We’ll see.


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## Elyles

A while back I stated that only a few in Aragon were on the CE. As normal, my wife recently corrected me. She said that Aragon is divided in three sectors, Teruel, Zaragoza, and Huesca and when we enlisted in the CE, there were only two others in the Huesca sector on it. I would venture to guess that there are quite a few in Zaragoza on it. I really don’t know. I do know that we are the only ones in Jaca. Hanging head in shame and shuffling my feet. 

It’s September and the only new info we had was that a committee would be selected in Aragon to work on admission to the system. It was a rather brash response. I am thinking the Aragon government feels a bit pressured by the rapid action of Andalucía because maybe they are thinking that the bureaucracy in Spain shouldn’t work that fast? 

Actually, I have no idea how things are supposed to work. 


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## Elyles

*Convenio Especial no longer available*

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## Megsmum

Elyles said:


> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


What was! You’re now living in Afghanistan!


----------



## Elyles

*Convenio Especial no longer available*



Megsmum said:


> What was! You’re now living in Afghanistan!




Horse poop, For some reason I can’t change my profile back to living Spain and from the US. I guess Tapatalk has bugs? I found the Contact us button and asked them to correct it


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## growurown

Elyles said:


> Horse crap, For some reason I can’t change my profile back to living Spain and from the US. I guess Tapatalk has bugs


Surprised you did not blame it on Trump..


----------



## Elyles

*Convenio Especial no longer available*



growurown said:


> Surprised you did not blame it on Trump..




He gets blame only where due and related to his daily scandals and ignorance. I am not important enough for his attention when most of the country can’t stand him. Enough about him, wrong topic here


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## baldilocks

Elyles said:


> A while back I stated that only a few in Aragon were on the CE. As normal, my wife recently corrected me. She said that Aragon is divided in three sectors, Teruel, Zaragoza, and Huesca and when we enlisted in the CE, there were only two others in the Huesca sector on it. I would venture to guess that there are quite a few in Zaragoza on it. I really don’t know. I do know that we are the only ones in Jaca. Hanging head in shame and shuffling my feet.
> 
> It’s September and the only new info we had was that a committee would be selected in Aragon to work on admission to the system. It was a rather brash response. I am thinking the Aragon government feels a bit pressured by the rapid action of Andalucía because maybe they are thinking that the bureaucracy in Spain shouldn’t work that fast?
> 
> *Actually, I have no idea how things are supposed to work. *
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Funnily enough, I think you are in the same boat as most of those in authority in Spain.


----------



## Elyles

baldilocks said:


> Funnily enough, I think you are in the same boat as most of those in authority in Spain.




I figured that the first time I tried to get my ID card. Every time I came back to the office, somebody New was in the driver’s seat and I was asked for something else.


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## xabiaxica

Elyles said:


> Horse poop, For some reason I can’t change my profile back to living Spain and from the US. I guess Tapatalk has bugs? I found the Contact us button and asked them to correct it
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I've sorted it for you.

You'd potentiallly be waiting weeks for the techs. . .


----------



## Elyles

For the Convenio to have been cancelled, they sure have no intention of doing it in Aragon yet. Another payment withdrawn today. Why would Andalucía get the jump on things? 


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## Elyles

Lynn R said:


> Another thought just occurred to me - if the new Government really does mean to guarantee healthcare for ALL foreigners resident in Spain, then what need would there be for the Convenio Especial whereby people can pay to access public healthcare?




They just made another withdrawal from my bank today. That’s two since August 1. The powers that be in Aragon sure have no intention of cancelling it yet.


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## Elyles

MaryHinge said:


> You, yourself also said it had been cancelled in your post #97 and I quote _" Since the convenio especial has now been cancelled, which is of course an income stream for the govt_ I cannot actually post the link as of yet (as not enough posts) but here is the cut n paste from the Decree
> 
> 
> 
> *Disposición transitoria primera. Convenio especial de prestación de asistencia sanitaria.
> 
> 
> 
> Los convenios especiales de prestación de asistencia sanitaria suscritos en aplicación de lo dispuesto en el artículo 3.3 de la Ley 16/2003, de 28 de mayo, por aquellas personas que tras la entrada en vigor de este real decreto-ley tengan derecho a recibir la asistencia sanitaria en el territorio español con cargo a fondos públicos, mantendrán su vigencia hasta el último día del mes natural en que entre en vigor este real decreto-ley.*




I read the Decree word for word then machine translated it to English. This to me is strange or extremely slow. For example, after Andalucía accepted the new Royal Decree, the press on this died. Today was the second time since August 1 that CE payments were extracted from our bank. Aragon does not recognize it yet, apparently.


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## baldilocks

Elyles said:


> I read the Decree word for word then machine translated it to English. This to me is strange or extremely slow. For example, after Andalucía accepted the new Royal Decree, the press on this died. Today was the second time since August 1 that CE payments were extracted from our bank. Aragon does not recognize it yet, apparently.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Perhaps Aragon does, and it is just that they haven't told the bank to stop deducting. Maybe you should challenge the bank.


----------



## Elyles

baldilocks said:


> Perhaps Aragon does, and it is just that they haven't told the bank to stop deducting. Maybe you should challenge the bank.




I would rather Aragon be at fault and have to demand my money back


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## Alcalaina

Congress approved the new healthcare law today. PP voted against and Cuidadanos abstained.



> El pleno del Congreso de los Diputados ha aprobado este jueves tres decretos, entre ellos el que recupera el acceso al Sistema Nacional de Salud para todas las personas que residen en España, desde el primer día, sin necesidad de padrón. Este último lo hizo con 173 votos a favor y los 133 en contra del PP y la abstención de los 31 diputados de Ciudadanos.


https://elpais.com/politica/2018/09/06/actualidad/1536224502_681558.html


----------



## Elyles

Alcalaina said:


> Congress approved the new healthcare law today. PP voted against and Cuidadanos abstained.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://elpais.com/politica/2018/09/06/actualidad/1536224502_681558.html




Holy crap, I wish someone would have stated that this still need3d to go through Congress. 


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## Elyles

Alcalaina said:


> Congress approved the new healthcare law today. PP voted against and Cuidadanos abstained.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://elpais.com/politica/2018/09/06/actualidad/1536224502_681558.html




Thanks


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## Elyles

*Convenio Especial no longer available*



Elyles said:


> For the Convenio to have been cancelled, they sure have no intention of doing it in Aragon yet. Another payment withdrawn today. Why would Andalucía get the jump on things?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk




There is an article in another topic (brand new) stating that Congress just passed the Healthcare Law today with a corresponding article from El País. I am amazed that with all the knowledge on here that nobody said anything about the need for Congress to pass it. Dumb me and my ignorance of Spanish Government procedure. I guess now the ball starts rolling?


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## growurown

Elyles said:


> Holy crap, I wish someone would have stated that this still need3d to go through Congress.


Seems a good reason to educate yourself on the country you immigrated to.


----------



## kaipa

Also it should be noted that this is still framed by the Spanish press as granting rights to undocumented immigrants. Not to say that it will be read as extending to all just pointing out that when ever I watch La1 for instance that is how they contextualize it. This might explain why some communities are not at the moment implementing it in a more broader sense. Please don't flame me


----------



## Elyles

growurown said:


> Seems a good reason to educate yourself on the country you immigrated to.




For six years I have used this site as a source of education. 


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## Elyles

kaipa said:


> Also it should be noted that this is still framed by the Spanish press as granting rights to undocumented immigrants. Not to say that it will be read as extending to all just pointing out that when ever I watch La1 for instance that is how they contextualize it. This might explain why some communities are not at the moment implementing it in a more broader sense. Please don't flame me




Flame?


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## Elyles

kaipa said:


> Also it should be noted that this is still framed by the Spanish press as granting rights to undocumented immigrants. Not to say that it will be read as extending to all just pointing out that when ever I watch La1 for instance that is how they contextualize it. This might explain why some communities are not at the moment implementing it in a more broader sense. Please don't flame me




Attached are the two main paragraphs of the El Pais article today directly machine translated. It clearly states that the decree approved (recovers the access to the national system for all people who reside in Spain. The second paragraph refers to the recovery of healthcare to irregular immigrants without having to justify their residence. 

If you read the Royal Decree it states the same but goes in depth beyond immigrants to use the word ALL residents in Spain but it elaborates on immigrants. 

Interesting. I read the Royal Decree and translated it word for word. When I received a note from the health department the writer stated that the law was not directed towards all residents. His interpretation I assume was in error. The law clearly states a return to pre 2012 status and justifies it. The Royal Decree also specifically states in its First Transatory Disposition that those on the Convenio Especial qualify for this healthcare from public funds. It also states that The CE will end on the last day of July. 

Now the interpretations by the communities begin, I guess. Since Aragon is PSOE, their interpretation will be along party lines. The attorneys are going to have a heyday over this. What is your take?

“The plenary of the Congress of Deputies has approved on Thursday three decrees, including the one that recovers the access to the national system of health for all the people who reside in Spain, from the first day, without need of Padrón. The latter made it with 173 votes in favour and the 133 against the PP and the abstention of the 31 deputies of citizens. During the previous hours, the Government continued its discussions with ERC and PdeCat on the withdrawal of resources on Catalan law and its support for the reform package. The Conference of spokespersons of the Congress decided this Tuesday to limit to three the decrees law of the Government that were discussed and voted this Thursday, leaving for later the remainder, among them, one on measures against the macho violence and another on the exhumation of Franco. “

“The plenary of the Congress has now given the green light to the decree of universalization of health, which returns health care to irregular immigrants under the same conditions as the Spaniards, without having to justify their residence. In the absence of the vote, which will be produced from 16.00 H, all the parliamentary groups, with the exception of the PP, have expressed their support for the validation of the Royal Decree-law, approved by the Council of Ministers on July 27th, as well as to be processed as Bill. EFE”

Machine translation of First Transatory Disposition of Royal Decree
July 27, 2018 and approved in Congress September 7, 2018.

“First Transitory Disposition Convenio Especial on the provision of health care. 
Special health care agreements signed under Article 3.3 of law 16/2003 of 28 May for those persons who, after the entry into force of this Royal Decree-Law, have the right to receive the assistance In the Spanish territory from public funds, they will remain in force until the last day of the natural month in which this Royal Decree-law enters into force. “



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## Elyles

kaipa said:


> Also it should be noted that this is still framed by the Spanish press as granting rights to undocumented immigrants. Not to say that it will be read as extending to all just pointing out that when ever I watch La1 for instance that is how they contextualize it. This might explain why some communities are not at the moment implementing it in a more broader sense. Please don't flame me




I just found another article in El Pais and machine translated the first parts about the approval of universal health. It had basically the same info but worded differently. I machine translated the part about universal health care. Note that it says nothing about the immigrants specifically on healthcare. I guess it depends on who wrote it. 



https://elpais.com/politica/2018/09/06/actualidad/1536238521_333279

The Plenary of Congress has approved three Royal Decrees law with what the president of the government, Pedro Sanchez, gets that those who supported him for his election as President of the Government again to express their support for their initiatives not without warnings, apostilles and Conditions yet to be determined.

With the votes of the PSOE, United we can, PDeCAT, PNV, ERC, Compromís and Bildu has adopted the universalization of the health, the adaptation of the European Union regulations on data protection and, finally, the reinforcement of means in the attention to asylees and refugees . The latter two had no vote against it.

It was not easy for nationalist groups to vote against these decrees on the basis of their content. The data protection, by European mandate, or the increase in staffing to cope with the intense increase in asylum requests are matters which did not admit much discussion as has been appreciated in the plenary. Nor the return to the universality of the health, diminished by a decree of the government of Mariano Rajoy.

The People's Party and Citizens approved the second and third royal decrees but the popular voted against the universalization of health, while Rivera's party abstained by considering that this rule should be processed as a bill to give The debate and the amendments. The disqualifications to the executive rained from the PP, which accused Pedro Sanchez of "being turned over to the populists and independences."



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## Elyles

Sorry, but I just checked and the following article is not available on here



https://elpais.com/politica/2018/09/06/actualidad/1536238521_333279




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]



App


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## Elyles

Elyles said:


> Sorry, but I just checked and the following article is not available on here
> 
> 
> 
> https://elpais.com/politica/2018/09/06/actualidad/1536238521_333279
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk




App


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]



Although I couldn’t find the above, I found another article with basically the same info here
https://www.eldiario.es/politica/Congreso-actividad-aprobacion-decretos-Gobierno_0_811569223.html


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## Elyles

Elyles said:


> App
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk




Although I couldn’t find the above, I found another article with basically the same info here
https://www.eldiario.es/politica/Congreso-actividad-aprobacion-decretos-Gobierno_0_811569223.html


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]







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## jpsnwuk

*New health changes*

Hello (again) when I move to Spain, do I need to get health insurance, I have looked it up and it seems the Gov of Spain has changed public health to free for everyone?? is this correct? if so does this null my need to get insurance??

If I do need insurance I have also read you can pay 60 euros a month cover from the council?

I am a UK resident at present.


----------



## Elyles

*New health changes*



jpsnwuk said:


> Hello (again) when I move to Spain, do I need to get health insurance, I have looked it up and it seems the Gov of Spain has changed public health to free for everyone?? is this correct? if so does this null my need to get insurance??
> 
> 
> 
> If I do need insurance I have also read you can pay 60 euros a month cover from the council?
> 
> 
> 
> I am a UK resident at present.




It may be law but everywhere except Andalucia doesn’t recognize it yet. Nobody knows yet what the individual communities will do in regards to qualification procedures. They could define residency as per a certain amount of time. I don’t know. So, unless you are moving to Andalucia, I suggest you follow through on your insurance requirement. Council? Are you referring to the Convenio Especial offered by the various Communities? If so, you must be a legally registered resident for a year before you can qualify. There is a Caveat in that the Convenio was annulled by the new or that those that were on the Convenio qualify for the new healthcare. I have no idea how this will pan out in each community. In Aragon we are still paying monthly. Fee is 57€ for under 65 and about 160 € for over that age. Again, if you are coming here to anywhere except Andalucia, and you go to register for healthcare, you will be rejected because the procedures have not been written yet. I have a machine translated version but do not know if I can send it to you here. There is a lot of info on it in Spanish on the net. And, there is no free lunch.


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## kaipa

As a matter of interest when you say looked it up was that on a UK website giving advice on residency requirements? Because unless the residency requirements have changed then the "New Law" won't be applicable. I know that sounds strange but without a formal c
hange to residency requirements the law will mean nothing to you. Of course the absurdity of all this would mean getting residency then cancelling your private insurance and receiving free healthcare. At the moment then you will ,if not in receipt of a S1 or you or your spouse have works contracts or one of you is a Spanish citizen, have to show you have private healthcare. In reality the law was enacted by the new socialist government as political reaction to the previous governments withholding of rights for healthcare of illegal undocumented immigrants outside of EU. I don't think they were thinking about relatively well off EU citizens who fancy an early retirement in the sun


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## Elyles

*New health changes*



kaipa said:


> As a matter of interest when you say looked it up was that on a UK website giving advice on residency requirements? Because unless the residency requirements have changed then the "New Law" won't be applicable. I know that sounds strange but without a formal c
> hange to residency requirements the law will mean nothing to you. Of course the absurdity of all this would mean getting residency then cancelling your private insurance and receiving free healthcare. At the moment then you will ,if not in receipt of a S1 or you or your spouse have works contracts or one of you is a Spanish citizen, have to show you have private healthcare. In reality the law was enacted by the new socialist government as political reaction to the previous governments withholding of rights for healthcare of illegal undocumented immigrants outside of EU. I don't think they were thinking about relatively well off EU citizens who fancy an early retirement in the sun



The Law basically reverses the points in the PP Law of 2012. Have you paid attention as to how it is being handled in Andalucia where the Convenio was squashed due to the First Transatory Disposition of the Royal Decree? It does not state just for immigrants but includes them. There is also recent press regarding how the INSS was deceptive in not allowing Free Care for all in 2012. There is also a statement that The various communities will be held responsible to come up with entry procedures. It specifies who qualifies and there are no further interpretations other than All Residents. You should read it. 



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## Elyles

kaipa said:


> As a matter of interest when you say looked it up was that on a UK website giving advice on residency requirements? Because unless the residency requirements have changed then the "New Law" won't be applicable. I know that sounds strange but without a formal c
> hange to residency requirements the law will mean nothing to you. Of course the absurdity of all this would mean getting residency then cancelling your private insurance and receiving free healthcare. At the moment then you will ,if not in receipt of a S1 or you or your spouse have works contracts or one of you is a Spanish citizen, have to show you have private healthcare. In reality the law was enacted by the new socialist government as political reaction to the previous governments withholding of rights for healthcare of illegal undocumented immigrants outside of EU. I don't think they were thinking about relatively well off EU citizens who fancy an early retirement in the sun




That is what I meant by No Free Lunch. Well said!


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## kaipa

Don t wish to argue about the points you have made just want to answer the original posters question. As far as the law stands then said poster will need to have private healthcare if he she wants residency here assuming they aren't retired or contributing. I think that is true as of this moment. 

It might be the case that the decree is enacted as you say but as you have pointed out it isn't happening in many places at the moment.

I haven't read all the legislation but I did watch the resignation speech of the ministra de Sanidad on tv the other day and ( whilst trying to big up her achievements) she talked about the new law but very much in the context as a humanitarian measure to ensure the health of the poorest and I venture to say that that is how many Spanish see it which might explain the reluctance of various departments to dismiss the claims of the expat communities at the moment. That is not to say it won't change as you rightly point out.

On a slightly tangential note it begs the question how long Pedro Sanchez can effectively hold power following the nature of the recent resignations and now with the spotlight on his own thesis. If they are forced I to another early election everything could change again including the laws.
So the long and short of it is. For UK citizens you still need to have private health insurance until or if the law of residencia is formally changed.


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## tebo53

jpsnwuk said:


> Hello (again) when I move to Spain, do I need to get health insurance, I have looked it up and it seems the Gov of Spain has changed public health to free for everyone?? is this correct? if so does this null my need to get insurance??
> 
> If I do need insurance I have also read you can pay 60 euros a month cover from the council?
> 
> I am a UK resident at present.


As I understand it if you are a pensioner and receiving your UK pension you will need to apply for healthcare under the S1 scheme. I think you need healthcare cover to obtain your residencia.


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## kaipa

Yes if you are receipt of a UK pension then by showing your S1 form you will be covered for all healthcare. If not at retirement age then unless you or your spouse is contributing you will need some insurance in place. After Brexit things may or may not change


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## kaipa

Incidentally you mention seeing that universal healthcare is free for all. I assume ( might be wrong) you dont speak spanish so could you indicate the link you used for this because it might mean that you no longer need to have healthcare cover.


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## Ifn

My official one year anniversary of living in Spain is December 5th. My very very expensive health insurance runs out on November 1st. I was hoping that the new law would take effect but it all seems to be a big muddle. I would gladly pay the supplement to be in the national health system through the Convenio Especial. 
The supplement, which is 100 something euros for someone my age, would cover my pre existing conditions. My very expensive (did I say that already?) Insurance does not cover any of my pre existing conditions, all of which are manageable. 
So, here’s a question. I live in Madrid where I can’t turn the corner without encountering yet another government institution. Which one to go to for information, which is all I want at this point


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## Lynn R

kaipa said:


> Don t wish to argue about the points you have made just want to answer the original posters question. As far as the law stands then said poster will need to have private healthcare if he she wants residency here assuming they aren't retired or contributing. I think that is true as of this moment.
> 
> It might be the case that the decree is enacted as you say but as you have pointed out it isn't happening in many places at the moment.
> 
> I haven't read all the legislation but I did watch the resignation speech of the ministra de Sanidad on tv the other day and ( whilst trying to big up her achievements) she talked about the new law but very much in the context as a humanitarian measure to ensure the health of the poorest and I venture to say that that is how many Spanish see it which might explain the reluctance of various departments to dismiss the claims of the expat communities at the moment. That is not to say it won't change as you rightly point out.
> 
> On a slightly tangential note it begs the question how long Pedro Sanchez can effectively hold power following the nature of the recent resignations and now with the spotlight on his own thesis. If they are forced I to another early election everything could change again including the laws.
> So the long and short of it is. For UK citizens you still need to have private health insurance until or if the law of residencia is formally changed.


I agree with what you say, and I also have misgivings about how long the present Government may remain in power.

So the OP (unless they are a UK state pensioner and can obtain an S1) will need to take out private heath insurance in order to be able to register as a resident. If they are to be based in an area where the Convenio Especial is still operating and the new decree regarding universal healthcare has not yet been implemented, then they would need to have been registered as a resident for at least one year before being able to qualify for the Convenio Especial. The charges are actually €60 per month for anyone aged up to 65 and €157 for those aged 65 and over, slightly different from the sums Elyles quoted. And for the OP, it is not the local Council who deal with the Convenio Especial, it is the INSS (Social Security Department).


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## tebo53

If the OP can inform us if they are of pension age and receive uk pension would produce more informed answers.


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## Elyles

Lynn R said:


> I agree with what you say, and I also have misgivings about how long the present Government may remain in power.
> 
> 
> 
> So the OP (unless they are a UK state pensioner and can obtain an S1) will need to take out private heath insurance in order to be able to register as a resident. If they are to be based in an area where the Convenio Especial is still operating and the new decree regarding universal healthcare has not yet been implemented, then they would need to have been registered as a resident for at least one year before being able to qualify for the Convenio Especial. The charges are actually €60 per month for anyone aged up to 65 and €157 for those aged 65 and over, slightly different from the sums Elyles quoted. And for the OP, it is not the local Council who deal with the Convenio Especial, it is the INSS (Social Security Department).




And private insurance contracts are for periods of time, never month to month


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## Elyles

Lynn R said:


> I agree with what you say, and I also have misgivings about how long the present Government may remain in power.
> 
> 
> 
> So the OP (unless they are a UK state pensioner and can obtain an S1) will need to take out private heath insurance in order to be able to register as a resident. If they are to be based in an area where the Convenio Especial is still operating and the new decree regarding universal healthcare has not yet been implemented, then they would need to have been registered as a resident for at least one year before being able to qualify for the Convenio Especial. The charges are actually €60 per month for anyone aged up to 65 and €157 for those aged 65 and over, slightly different from the sums Elyles quoted. And for the OP, it is not the local Council who deal with the Convenio Especial, it is the INSS (Social Security Department).




I don’t manage the finances so never know exactly how much. 


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## Pesky Wesky

Ifn said:


> My official one year anniversary of living in Spain is December 5th. My very very expensive health insurance runs out on November 1st. I was hoping that the new law would take effect but it all seems to be a big muddle. I would gladly pay the supplement to be in the national health system through the Convenio Especial.
> The supplement, which is 100 something euros for someone my age, would cover my pre existing conditions. My very expensive (did I say that already?) Insurance does not cover any of my pre existing conditions, all of which are manageable.
> So, here’s a question. I live in Madrid where I can’t turn the corner without encountering yet another government institution. Which one to go to for information, which is all I want at this point


 In this thread, post five I give a link to soc sec in Madrid. Could try getting in touch with them?
https://www.expatforum.com/expats/s...rstanding-public-healthcare.html#post14644398


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## Tom1957

Although I haven't read through the whole thread, I've been putting off becoming resident to see how this pans out.

I've been told from a (usually) reliable source that here in Alicante province, free healthcare will be subject to means-testing. If you can afford to pay, you have to pay.


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## Megsmum

Tom1957 said:


> Although I haven't read through the whole thread, I've been putting off becoming resident to see how this pans out.
> 
> I've been told from a (usually) reliable source that here in Alicante province, free healthcare will be subject to means-testing. If you can afford to pay, you have to pay.


Erm, how do you “put off” becoming resident, either you are or you aren’t resident here?


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## xabiaxica

Tom1957 said:


> Although I haven't read through the whole thread, I've been putting off becoming resident to see how this pans out.
> 
> I've been told from a (usually) reliable source that here in Alicante province, free healthcare will be subject to means-testing. If you can afford to pay, you have to pay.


How long have you been in Spain?


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## Lynn R

Tom1957 said:


> I've been told from a (usually) reliable source that here in Alicante province, free healthcare will be subject to means-testing. .


If your source doesn't know that healthcare is the responsibility of the autonomous community (Valencia, in your case) and therefore this will not be decided at the provincial level, it begs the question as to how reliable they are.


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## Antoni88

Megsmum said:


> Erm, how do you “put off” becoming resident, either you are or you aren’t resident here?


Easy, you just stay illegal and don´t register anywhere. There are many immigrants like that.


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## Alcalaina

Antoni88 said:


> Easy, you just stay illegal and don´t register anywhere. There are many immigrants like that.


That's the best way of ensuring you never become entitled to free healthcare. What will they do after they lose their EHICs?


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## Lynn R

Alcalaina said:


> That's the best way of ensuring you never become entitled to free healthcare. What will they do after they lose their EHICs?


Absolutely. I know a few people who missed out on being able to obtain free healthcare because they had never registered as residents before 2012, despite living here for several years before that. Oh dear, what a shame, never mind.


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## Antoni88

Alcalaina said:


> That's the best way of ensuring you never become entitled to free healthcare. What will they do after they lose their EHICs?


EHIC is only for Europeans, most of illegal immigrants are from Africa.


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## kaipa

Think your reliable source is not very reliable on this question.If you are retired UK citizen with S1 then you don't need to pay. If not retired then you need insurance. If you have a work contract then your SS contribution cover healthcare. To get residency you need to prove you fall into one of theses categories


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## Alcalaina

Antoni88 said:


> EHIC is only for Europeans, most of illegal immigrants are from Africa.


Oh. I was under the impression we were talking about Brits who live in Spain but never apply for residencia. Clearly you have your own agenda.


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## Antoni88

Alcalaina said:


> Oh. I was under the impression we were talking about Brits who live in Spain but never apply for residencia. Clearly you have your own agenda.


Haha, you are under some kind of impression, but I am the one who have my own agenda!


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## Pesky Wesky

Antoni88 said:


> Haha, you are under some kind of impression, but I am the one who have my own agenda!


 Which is exactly what Alcalaina said.
Seriously, you need to get reliable info, and not rely on your "reliable source" who is giving you wrong info. 

The only way to be sure is to go to the real source of info which is the pertinent authority in the UK and here. If you don't speak the language then go with some one who can! 

And that's about it for this thread as far as I can see...


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## Antoni88

Pesky Wesky said:


> Which is exactly what Alcalaina said.
> Seriously, you need to get reliable info, and not rely on your "reliable source" who is giving you wrong info.
> 
> The only way to be sure is to go to the real source of info which is the pertinent authority in the UK and here. If you don't speak the language then go with some one who can!
> 
> And that's about it for this thread as far as I can see...


Look, you are missing something here. My reliable source is me myself and I visit around 7 government offices related to migration here in Valencia weekly. All information that I know is directly from the source plus I know how each different office here interprets the same law differently. This is a forum for expats living in Spain and not Brits living in Spain, so that you both are under impression that it is not like that, really surprises me. Oh, and I speak 4 languages and Spanish is one of them, so no need for anyone to translate for me.


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## Pesky Wesky

Antoni88 said:


> Look, you are missing something here. My reliable source is me myself and I visit around 7 government offices related to migration here in Valencia weekly. All information that I know is directly from the source plus I know how each different office here interprets the same law differently. This is a forum for expats living in Spain and not Brits living in Spain, so that you both are under impression that it is not like that, really surprises me. Oh, and I speak 4 languages and Spanish is one of them, so no need for anyone to translate for me.


I don't think I am missing one little thing. Great to know you are so well informed. Shame I don't need any information myself and won't need to participate any more on this thread.
If you have any English language links from _official sources_ about healthcare issuesI am sure some people would be grateful to read them.
Thanks!


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## Megsmum

Antoni88 said:


> Easy, you just stay illegal and don´t register anywhere. There are many immigrants like that.


Great advice. What a fabulous addition your thoughts are going to be.


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## Antoni88

Megsmum said:


> Great advice. What a fabulous addition your thoughts are going to be.


That was answer to the question. I wouldn´t advise this to anyone.


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## Antoni88

Pesky Wesky said:


> I don't think I am missing one little thing. Great to know you are so well informed. Shame I don't need any information myself and won't need to participate any more on this thread.
> If you have any English language links from _official sources_ about healthcare issuesI am sure some people would be grateful to read them.
> Thanks!


No worries Pesky! I have never looked for this information in English and I don´t know if it exists. And if it is out there and it is correct, it still depend on interpretation of the exact office where you will visit. That includes immigration, consulates (within the same country etc.).

Sometimes what you read (even official Spanish) is more like general guideline and you might encounter additional requirements.


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## Elyles

Any news on other Community action besides Andalucia towards enactment of this new law or Cancellation of Convenio Especial yet? Although two months is not long, many of us still await news. It sort of reminds me of the unofficial Juneteenth holiday in the US. This celebrates when slaves received information of freedom in Texas. The Emancipation Proclamation was signed onz Jan. 1, 1863 but the slaves in Texas received word of the freedom on June 19, 1965 and hence, it was called Juneteenth. In Texas many African Americans take a holiday that date. Not pointing at slavery but the time lapse as the issue. 

The government here just plugs along at its own pace. 


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## Alcalaina

Elyles said:


> Any news on other Community action besides Andalucia towards enactment of this new law or Cancellation of Convenio Especial yet? Although two months is not long, many of us still await news. It sort of reminds me of the unofficial Juneteenth holiday in the US. This celebrates when slaves received information of freedom in Texas. The Emancipation Proclamation was signed onz Jan. 1, 1863 but the slaves in Texas received word of the freedom on June 19, 1965 and hence, it was called Juneteenth. In Texas many African Americans take a holiday that date. Not pointing at slavery but the time lapse as the issue.
> 
> The government here just plugs along at its own pace.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Great story. 

But two months is NOTHING in terms of Spanish bureaucracy. All those systems that are half-computerised and half-manual are going to have to be rewritten and tested; could be years. I dread to think of the number of photocopies they are going to make.


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## Elyles

Alcalaina said:


> Great story.
> 
> 
> 
> But two months is NOTHING in terms of Spanish bureaucracy. All those systems that are half-computerised and half-manual are going to have to be rewritten and tested; could be years. I dread to think of the number of photocopies they are going to make.




My suspicion! 


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## Elyles

Alcalaina said:


> Great story.
> 
> 
> 
> But two months is NOTHING in terms of Spanish bureaucracy. All those systems that are half-computerised and half-manual are going to have to be rewritten and tested; could be years. I dread to think of the number of photocopies they are going to make.




I dread to think of the people making those photocopies. 


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## Relyat

I went to the INSS in Denia last week to enquire about this and whether I should cancel my Convenio Especial. The chap there interrogated his computer which said no !!

He said that he had no knowledge of the new law.


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## Elyles

*Free healthcare*



Relyat said:


> I went to the INSS in Denia last week to enquire about this and whether I should cancel my Convenio Especial. The chap there interrogated his computer which said no !!
> 
> He said that he had no knowledge of the new law.




INSS has been informed of nothing yet. I went to ours in Jaca the day after it was passed on the 27th of July and was the source of knowledge for that office that it even existed also. Our registration office for the Convenio in Zaragoza fist said that the law did not cover all residents (early August). About a month later I received another response from the same office restating a clause of the new law that reflected the autonomous Communities need to set procedure into the health system and that those affected would be contacted as soon as it was done. 

From what I understand, The law gives no choice to the Communities regarding cancellation of the Convenio and it was in fact cancelled on the first day of August but the Communities have not recognized it yet. 

Also, with the new law stating that healthcare will be based on residency, versus Social Security payment, I assume it will go to the various health departments for registration purposes. 

There is a rumor that one or more law firms have already started to assist people in receiving rebates of Convenio payments but, I don’t trust attorneys. 

At this time I am slightly disappointed. It was like hanging the proverbial carrot in front of the horse. It all remains to be seen. If PSOE has their way, it will be like in Andalucia and things will move fast. 

I quit holding my breath but am following it. Also, keep in mind that the INSS was at the forefront of not ensuring healthcare would be free and universal in 2012. 

Who knows? It could just be a political standoff. 


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## snikpoh

Relyat said:


> I went to the INSS in Denia last week to enquire about this and whether I should cancel my Convenio Especial. The chap there interrogated his computer which said no !!
> 
> He said that he had no knowledge of the new law.


Yet just down the road in Benidorm, two weeks ago, someone had their CE cancelled and were signed up for FREE state health care under the new law.


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## Elyles

snikpoh said:


> Yet just down the road in Benidorm, two weeks ago, someone had their CE cancelled and were signed up for FREE state health care under the new law.




Cool, in Valencia. Finally some progress. I am getting tired of paying into it. We’ll see.


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## Elyles

snikpoh said:


> Yet just down the road in Benidorm, two weeks ago, someone had their CE cancelled and were signed up for FREE state health care under the new law.




Nothing in the news or other forums regarding this yet


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## bikerboy123

''Nothing in the news or other forums regarding this yet'', true, not heard a peep about free health care, hope it's not some kind of 'Chinese whisper' that is doing the rounds.


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## Elyles

bikerboy123 said:


> ''Nothing in the news or other forums regarding this yet'', true, not heard a peep about free health care, hope it's not some kind of 'Chinese whisper' that is doing the rounds.



You didn’t hear about Andalucia on July 27?


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## Elyles

bikerboy123 said:


> ''Nothing in the news or other forums regarding this yet'', true, not heard a peep about free health care, hope it's not some kind of 'Chinese whisper' that is doing the rounds.




Are you living in country? Biker boy? Referring to motor or road cycling?


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## Elyles

*Free healthcare*

Introduce yourself in the forum and welcome!

Section called welcome to Spain. Introduce yourself here.


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## mikea2

As a US resident considering retiring to Spain could this new law, eliminating the CE, end up requiring we provide private insurance for 5 years until we can become permanent residents?


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## Elyles

mikea2 said:


> As a US resident considering retiring to Spain could this new law, eliminating the CE, end up requiring we provide private insurance for 5 years until we can become permanent residents?


In every community except one, the law is currently not working. Everywhere else 90%, remains in the dark


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## Alcalaina

mikea2 said:


> As a US resident considering retiring to Spain could this new law, eliminating the CE, end up requiring we provide private insurance for 5 years until we can become permanent residents?


It could well do. Are you planning to come on on a retirement visa?

CE for over-65s is/was €157 a month per person plus meds, so not much different from private heath insurance, which is MUCH cheaper here than in the US.


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## mikea2

Thanks, My spouse is a type 1 diabetic using an insulin pump.  I don't think private will cover pre-existing..


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## Elyles

mikea2 said:


> As a US resident considering retiring to Spain could this new law, eliminating the CE, end up requiring we provide private insurance for 5 years until we can become permanent residents?




One only hopes the new law comes to fruition in all Spanish communities. The CE may not be expunged in all communities but nobody really knows presently.

Although each Autonomous Community has been requested by the state to develop entry procedures into the Healthcare system, apparently none have budged except Andalucia. There is some speculation that the communities are in a wait and see situation in regards to possible government changes. 

My wife and I have been on the CE going on 4 years and are satisfied with the Spanish system. If the new Law never takes effect, we will just stay with it.i no longer am optimistic about any changes in healthcare becoming free. 

Funny, but on an American Facebook group for Expats, the CE or the new healthcare law is rarely mentioned


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## Elyles

Apparently the free healthcare to all memo has not gotten to the healthcare offices in Andalucia after all. A member on a site I am an admin on was informed that the new law did not apply to her. Another member was informed the same in Galicia based in the information that Americans have private health coverage when they arrive here. I personally think nobody knows yet about program entry procedures


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## Overandout

Elyles said:


> Apparently the free healthcare to all memo has not gotten to the healthcare offices in Andalucia after all. A member on a site I am an admin on was informed that the new law did not apply to her. Another member was informed the same in Galicia based in the information that Americans have private health coverage when they arrive here. I personally think nobody knows yet about program entry procedures
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I maintain my interpretation which I stated in post #87.

Until the Codigo de Extranjería is derogated or modified to remove the obligation on immigrants to have private insurance, there is no change for most people.


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## kaipa

Been here before! But my initial reading of it in Spanish was that it was never intended for those with ability to cover only for immigrants without papers etc. However that is not as others read it.


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## growurown

kaipa said:


> Been here before! But my initial reading of it in Spanish was that it was never intended for those with ability to cover only for immigrants without papers etc. However that is not as others read it.


And that it what it was intended for, not immigrants who have the financial means or physical means (get a job) to support themselves. It was not intended for people from the UK who are used to handouts or failed Sanders voters from the US who want a socialist government and everything done/managed for them.

You do not hear anything on French, German or Spanish forums about this or asking when it will be implemented so they do not have to pay. The many Spanish I have talked about it with said it was for the people coming over from Africa on their little blow up boats otherwise under law they could not get the proper care they needed.


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## Alcalaina

kaipa said:


> Been here before! But my initial reading of it in Spanish was that it was never intended for those with ability to cover only for immigrants without papers etc. However that is not as others read it.


No, it goes beyond that.

(Apologies for machine translation)



> From now on, immigrants in an irregular situation will have the right to healthcare under the same conditions as Spaniards in the National Health System (SNS) without having to justify their residence in Spain, in cases wher social services prove that their country can not pay for this coverage.* Persons who are nationalized in Spain, resident foreigners, pensioners residing in other countries and cross-border workers will also have the right to health access.*


But there are exceptions. 


> However, criteria have been established to avoid the inappropriate use or "abuse" of the right to healthcare, especially for groups not registered or authorized as residents of Spain. *Thus, health care will be financed when they do not have the obligation to accredit the coverage of health care by another means according to European Union law; for not being able to export the right to health coverage from their country of origin, or because there is no third party obliged to pay.*


I would interpret this as excluding people with S1 cover or the obligatory private insurance required for residency, but it is a bit vague.

Sanidad universal: El Gobierno aprueba la ley que devuelve la sanidad universal


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## Elyles

growurown said:


> And that it what it was intended for, not immigrants who have the financial means or physical means (get a job) to support themselves. It was not intended for people from the UK who are used to handouts or failed Sanders voters from the US who want a socialist government and everything done/managed for them.
> 
> You do not hear anything on French, German or Spanish forums about this or asking when it will be implemented so they do not have to pay. The many Spanish I have talked about it with said it was for the people coming over from Africa on their little blow up boats otherwise under law they could not get the proper care they needed.



True, there is no free lunch and for us, the 300€ a month we pay is a drop in the bucket but my quest was just for information. According to the letters I received from the health department in Aragon, no procedures have been written yet and until that happens, everyone’s ideas are WAG’s (wild ass guesses). It could take a year or more to actually know anything. I got pretty jazzed at first thinking that it might cover us but was soon dismayed at the information available on the process of enactment. But, to your Chagrin, there are Brits SS well as Americans who rapidly entered the system in the Malaga area immediately after the passing of the royal decree. 

I get asked about the new law often on another forum where I am an Administrator and want correct information to give.


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## Alcalaina

Elyles said:


> ... everyone’s ideas are WAG’s (wild ass guesses).


You do realise that WAGs are something completely different in the UK?


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## Elyles

Alcalaina said:


> You do realise that WAGs are something completely different in the UK?


Lots of differences like that in British vs American English!


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## growurown

At least in Valencia you will get free tv and maybe wifi.

https://www.thinkspain.com/#p:/news-spain/31044/free-tv-for-all-hospital-patients-in-the-comunidad-valenciana


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## Rabbitcat

Any up to date word on roll out of universal healthcare?


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## Megsmum

Rabbitcat said:


> Any up to date word on roll out of universal healthcare?


Nothing officially. In my area, it’s been confirmed to me, by our lawyer that, this is not universal but to allow those here with no other means to get healthcare. IE illegal immigrants landing in Spain. However she also stated as with most things government led each region will open it up to their own interpretation.


----------



## Rabbitcat

Ah got ya now

I got wrong end of stick and thought it was going to be for all residents

I got private cover until end of 2019 as needed it for my residency- but was curious if I would be needing to renew it


----------



## xabiaxica

Rabbitcat said:


> Ah got ya now
> 
> I got wrong end of stick and thought it was going to be for all residents
> 
> I got private cover until end of 2019 as needed it for my residency- but was curious if I would be needing to renew it


In Andalucía it seems to have been opened up to everyone, except possibly brand new registrations.


Who knows how it will eventually pan out throughout the rest of the country?


----------



## Rabbitcat

I see

We are in miserly Valencia so you get nothing for free here!!!


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## Elyles

*New health changes*



Rabbitcat said:


> I see
> 
> We are in miserly Valencia so you get nothing for free here!!!


From the start of this thing in late July, a British Q & A forum has blasted that this healthcare is Free and Universal. They even got their attorneys on it. The only thing that does make sense is validating those on the CE because they truly have no other options. For example, my wife and myself now have a ton of preezisting conditions and couldnt get private coverage if we wanted to now anyway. Even though the Transitory Dispisition 1 states clearly this case, the Spanish government will surely change the meaning of the law enacted from the Poyal Decree in Congress in September. It really seems like only those on the CE were certified in Andalucia. Many with INSS however have gone rogue, telling Americans that they don't qualify because they had to have insurance upon arrival here.

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## Rabbitcat

It certainly looks like I definitely had been reading it wrong and whilst I have private healthcare I do feel a right knobhead because I have wrongly advised a few others that this was gonna be free for EU expats!!!

Owe a few apologies/ explanations!!!


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## Elyles

Rabbitcat said:


> It certainly looks like I definitely had been reading it wrong and whilst I have private healthcare I do feel a right knobhead because I have wrongly advised a few others that this was gonna be free for EU expats!!!
> 
> Owe a few apologies/ explanations!!!




Just hold on before you start apologizing. Nobody knows how it will come out in each community. Each Autonomous Community has been empowered to draw up their own regs to admit people into the system. This could take a bunch of time more.


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## kaipa

I feel this will go on forever. Remember that the original decree that PP enacted which took away the universal health care was deemed illegal but was still implemented. In other words people will still argue that universal healthcare is law despite the fact that it might not be available for everyone.
My student who is a doctor ( you would think they know) was totally unaware of any change! So there you go. Just stick to the status quo for now


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## Lynn R

kaipa said:


> My student who is a doctor ( you would think they know) was totally unaware of any change!


Well not necessarily, I am sure that medical staff don't get involved in issues regarding who is entitled to register and who is not, that is the province of the administrators.


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## Overandout

Lynn R said:


> Well not necessarily, I am sure that medical staff don't get involved in issues regarding who is entitled to register and who is not, that is the province of the administrators.


The same can be said about the civil servants in the office of "extranjería". The law says that you need private insurance to sign on the list of residents and that has not been changed.


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## Megsmum

Lynn R said:


> Well not necessarily, I am sure that medical staff don't get involved in issues regarding who is entitled to register and who is not, that is the province of the administrators.


And as an retired nurse in the UK neither did we get involved or were bothered. We treated who walked through the door... up to others to work out who should and shouldn’t pay. If they got to my bay, ward or theatre room, then we treated them, it’s what we do


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## Elyles

*New health changes*

Almost four and a half months have passed since the enacting of the healthcare Royal Decree. Yesterday I received the following from the health dept of Aragon in response to my monthly inquiry. If anything comes out of it I will post it.

Buenos días, Sr. 

Adjuntamos el BOE del Real Decreto-ley de Salud Universal.

Para valorar su situación personal deberá acudir a la delegación de INSS correspondiente a su población.

Un saludo

On Sat, 8 Dec 2018 08:43:08 +0100 Elyles wrote:

La nueva ley de salud se emitió como un Real Decreto el 27 de julio. en septiembre pasó por una votación en el Congreso Español. 

Disposición Transatory una de esta ley establece claramente que los residentes de España en el programa Convenio Especial califican para la atención médica pagada por los fondos públicos porque no pueden acceder a la atención médica de otros medios. 

Seguimos pagando en el Convenio Especial sobre una base mensual aquí porque no podemos calificar para el seguro médico privado con nuestras condiciones preexistentes. 

Mi mujer es un ciudadano de Alemania que no califica para la cobertura de salud de allí. Ella y yo somos residentes permanentes de España.


Por qué este proceso tarda tanto?
Ed Lyles



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## kaipa

So it sounds like they are kicking the can. As in someone else will deal with not us.


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## Elyles

kaipa said:


> So it sounds like they are kicking the can. As in someone else will deal with not us.




Just returned from the INSS here who again had not yet received instructions from the Huesca office on anything. I was expecting this. Fortunately I have a friend there. He got on the phone and called the Huesca office who knew very little as well. Questions were asked about mine and my wife’s US pensions,our nationalities, how long we have been here, etc and my friend said he would call me tomorrow with information. I have no idea what the questions were in regards to but he said something about income limits, etc. It sounded positive but I really know nothing.

On the way to the INSS office I received another email regarding new procedures that had been developed for immigrants. Apparently they are working on something. I am cautiously optimistic.


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## Allie-P

I read from the Brexit government guideline notifications that I receive - that all UK Expats living in Spain who have no other means of obtaining healthcare... ie from S1’s or via working and contributing.... are entitled to free state healthcare, once they have been registered as resident for more than five years.

Still, what they say and what they do !!!!


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## Elyles

Allie-P said:


> I read from the Brexit government guideline notifications that I receive - that all UK Expats living in Spain who have no other means of obtaining healthcare... ie from S1’s or via working and contributing.... are entitled to free state healthcare, once they have been registered as resident for more than five years.
> 
> Still, what they say and what they do !!!!




Interesting. This is the first I have seen anyone mention the five year permanent resident requirement for healthcare but there has been a lot of speculation.


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## Overandout

This 5 year rule is mentioned quite often on here.

In fact, I once looked for some written proof in Spanish legislation and official govt websites but I wasn't able to find anything.

Doesn't mean it isn't true of course, but I would like to find something.


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## Love Karma

Overandout said:


> This 5 year rule is mentioned quite often on here.
> 
> In fact, I once looked for some written proof in Spanish legislation and official govt websites but I wasn't able to find anything.
> 
> Doesn't mean it isn't true of course, but I would like to find something.


I was always under the impression it was an E.U law.

_*"As an EU national, you automatically acquire the right of permanent residence in another EU country if you have lived there legally for a continuous period of 5 years"*_

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citize...eu-nationals-permanent-residence/index_en.htm


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## Allie-P

Yes, @ Love Karma that is a known - but, until now, I haven’t seen it linked with free state healthcare. 

As said, it is in the Government guidance for Expats in Spain re Brexit healthcare.


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## Love Karma

Allie-P said:


> Yes, @ Love Karma that is a known - but, until now, I haven’t seen it linked with free state healthcare.
> 
> As said, it is in the Government guidance for Expats in Spain re Brexit healthcare.


So what is your question?


----------



## Elyles

Allie-P said:


> Yes, @ Love Karma that is a known - but, until now, I haven’t seen it linked with free state healthcare.
> 
> As said, it is in the Government guidance for Expats in Spain re Brexit healthcare.




Since we are paying monthly into the Convenio Especial, free healthcare would be nice but I can believe nothing till I see it. My visit with the INSS yesterday was hopeful, especially when my friend who worked there was asking me income/pension qualifying questions. I am more than well aware also about the statements in the new law qualifying those on the Convenio for healthcare as paid by public funds. Just waiting patiently


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## Allie-P

Love Karma said:


> So what is your question?


No question ???? I was passing on what I had recently read


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## Love Karma

I must have missed it, could you kindly supply a link to this "Brexit government guideline notifications" you mention in your first post.


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## Allie-P

Love Karma said:


> I must have missed it, could you kindly supply a link to this "Brexit government guideline notifications" you mention in your first post.



I will - but tomorrow. I am about to go out and need to plough through my numerous Brexit notifications.....


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Love Karma said:


> I must have missed it, could you kindly supply a link to this "Brexit government guideline notifications" you mention in your first post.


 I think it's this
https://www.gov.uk/government/brexit


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## Love Karma

Fabulous, thank you.


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## Overandout

Hmm, the UK Govt. and the EU can say what they like, but until I see a Spanish Govt website or law which says explicitly that foreigners who have been registered as residents in Spain for over 5 years are eligible for state health care I would be very cautious about relying on that.


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## Love Karma

Overandout said:


> Hmm, the UK Govt. and the EU can say what they like, but until I see a Spanish Govt website or law which says explicitly that foreigners who have been registered as residents in Spain for over 5 years are eligible for state health care I would be very cautious about relying on that.


It clearly say just that on the decree which is Law on the Spanish government website......doesn't actually say 5 year but says 

* «Article 3. Holders of the right to protection of health and health care.

1. All persons with Spanish nationality and foreigners who have established their residence in Spanish territory are holders of the right to health protection and health care."*

https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...o_boe/txt.php?id=BOE-A-2018-10752&prev=search


I take it that to establish your right to residence they adhere to the EU law of 5 years as outlined in previous link.


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## kaipa

We have been here before. Some people claim to have it and some people don't. Some people say the law is designed for undocumented illegals others that it covers everyone. The only thing you can do is wait until you receive notification that things have changed for you personally


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## Overandout

Love Karma said:


> It clearly say just that on the decree which is Law on the Spanish government website......doesn't actually say 5 year but says
> 
> * «Article 3. Holders of the right to protection of health and health care.
> 
> 1. All persons with Spanish nationality and foreigners who have established their residence in Spanish territory are holders of the right to health protection and health care."*
> 
> https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...o_boe/txt.php?id=BOE-A-2018-10752&prev=search
> 
> 
> I take it that to establish your right to residence they adhere to the EU law of 5 years as outlined in previous link.


Yes, but keep reading....

_2. To make effective the right referred to in section 1 charged to public funds of the competent administrations, the holders of the aforementioned rights must be in one of the following cases:

a) Have Spanish nationality and habitual residence in Spanish territory.

b) Having recognized their right to healthcare in Spain for any other legal title, even if they do not have their habitual residence in Spanish territory, provided there is no third party obliged to pay for such assistance.

c) Being a foreigner and having legal and habitual residence in Spanish territory and not having the obligation to prove the compulsory coverage of health care by another means._

The law on "extranjería" makes it necessary for EU citizens registering as residents in Spain to prove compulsory health care by another means, so we (at least EU citizens in Spain) do not meet the conditions required for the part you quoted (section 1 of Article 3) to take effect.


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## Allie-P

Overandout said:


> Hmm, the UK Govt. and the EU can say what they like, but until I see a Spanish Govt website or law which says explicitly that foreigners who have been registered as residents in Spain for over 5 years are eligible for state health care I would be very cautious about relying on that.



I know and you are right, there is so much misinformation floating around and we all know that we can’t trust the UK government.

Those in the UK believe that we all receive free healthcare here in Spain, anyway - in line with the foreigners in the U.K.....who do !!i


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## Elyles

kaipa said:


> We have been here before. Some people claim to have it and some people don't. Some people say the law is designed for undocumented illegals others that it covers everyone. The only thing you can do is wait until you receive notification that things have changed for you personally




Agreed


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## Love Karma

Overandout said:


> Yes, but keep reading....
> 
> _2. To make effective the right referred to in section 1 charged to public funds of the competent administrations, the holders of the aforementioned rights must be in one of the following cases:
> 
> a) Have Spanish nationality and habitual residence in Spanish territory.
> 
> b) Having recognized their right to healthcare in Spain for any other legal title, even if they do not have their habitual residence in Spanish territory, provided there is no third party obliged to pay for such assistance.
> 
> c) Being a foreigner and having legal and habitual residence in Spanish territory and not having the obligation to prove the compulsory coverage of health care by another means._
> 
> The law on "extranjería" makes it necessary for EU citizens registering as residents in Spain to prove compulsory health care by another means, so we (at least EU citizens in Spain) do not meet the conditions required for the part you quoted (section 1 of Article 3) to take effect.


Spin it however you wish.....but you said and I quote "_but until I see a Spanish Govt website or law which says explicitly that *Foreigners who have been registered as residents in Spain for over 5 years are eligible for state health care* I would be very cautious about relying on that._

And the above shows just that......we were never discussing new registrations


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## Elyles

Overandout said:


> Yes, but keep reading....
> 
> 
> 
> _2. To make effective the right referred to in section 1 charged to public funds of the competent administrations, the holders of the aforementioned rights must be in one of the following cases:
> 
> 
> 
> a) Have Spanish nationality and habitual residence in Spanish territory.
> 
> 
> 
> b) Having recognized their right to healthcare in Spain for any other legal title, even if they do not have their habitual residence in Spanish territory, provided there is no third party obliged to pay for such assistance.
> 
> 
> 
> c) Being a foreigner and having legal and habitual residence in Spanish territory and not having the obligation to prove the compulsory coverage of health care by another means._
> 
> 
> 
> The law on "extranjería" makes it necessary for EU citizens registering as residents in Spain to prove compulsory health care by another means, so we (at least EU citizens in Spain) do not meet the conditions required for the part you quoted (section 1 of Article 3) to take effect.




Interesting interpretation and what is your interpretation of Transatoria Disposition One I the law at the top of the last page that says (in English):

Transitory disposition first. Convenio Especial on the provision of health care. 
Special health care agreements signed under Article 3.3 of law 16/2003 of 28 May for those persons who, after the entry into force of this Royal Decree-Law, have the right to receive the assistance In the Spanish territory from public funds, they will remain in force until the last day of the natural month in which this Royal Decree-law enters into force. 


That nullifies the Convenio Especial, for those of us who have used that program for over five years. If I recall correctly, those on the program in Andalusia were converted to the public system. It all remains to be seen at this point what the outcome will be. 


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## kaipa

I don't see what difference it makes trying to interpret the law to suit our needs. The fact is none of this seems to be universally applied at the current time. I don't showing some funcinario a Google translation of a Spanish worded decree will help or for that matter something on a UK government website. Just wait and see what happens after Brexit and in the meantime stick with the status quo. Else your head will explode


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## Love Karma

kaipa said:


> I don't see what difference it makes trying to interpret the law to suit our needs. The fact is none of this seems to be universally applied at the current time. I don't showing some funcinario a Google translation of a Spanish worded decree will help or for that matter something on a UK government website. Just wait and see what happens after Brexit and in the meantime stick with the status quo. Else your head will explode


Well show the functionario the Spanish Original Decree like many have done in Andalucia thankfully Andalucia implemented it almost immediately.


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## xabiaxica

Allie-P said:


> I read from the Brexit government guideline notifications that I receive - that all UK Expats living in Spain who have no other means of obtaining healthcare... ie from S1’s or via working and contributing.... are entitled to free state healthcare, once they have been registered as resident for more than five years.
> 
> Still, what they say and what they do !!!!


They've been saying that since long before the recent law changes.

It was 100% wrong before the changes.

As you can see from reading this thread, it isn't yet clear if it's the case now.


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## xabiaxica

Allie-P said:


> I know and you are right, there is so much misinformation floating around and we all know that we can’t trust the UK government.
> 
> Those in the UK believe that we all receive free healthcare here in Spain, anyway - * in line with the foreigners in the U.K.....who do* !!i


People might well believe that, but it isn't true.

Not all foreigners living in the UK have the right to use the NHS.


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## Love Karma

xabiachica said:


> People might well believe that, but it isn't true.
> 
> Not all foreigners living in the UK have the right to use the NHS.


Exactly and a great many "foreigners" "health tourists" call them what you will DO get presented with a bill for their treatment.......whether they actually pay or the NHS chases them for payment is a whole different matter.


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## xabiaxica

Love Karma said:


> Exactly and a great many "foreigners" "health tourists" call them what you will DO get presented with a bill for their treatment.......whether they actually pay or the NHS chases them for payment is a whole different matter.


It's a condition of resident visas that applicants make an up-front payment for healthcare before the visa is processed.


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## Elyles

xabiachica said:


> It's a condition of resident visas that applicants make an up-front payment for healthcare before the visa is processed.




But, if like the US, they make one payment and scam the rest. It’s one reason our healthcare is so expensive


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## Love Karma

xabiachica said:


> It's a condition of resident visas that applicants make an up-front payment for healthcare before the visa is processed.


Correct. However this surcharge is woefully low and inadequate and was if I recall £200 per annum for the length of visa £150 for resident students.
This doesn't apply to EU Nationals at this time


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## xabiaxica

Love Karma said:


> Correct. However this surcharge is woefully low and inadequate and was if I recall £200 per annum for the length of visa £150 for resident students.
> This doesn't apply to EU Nationals at this time


Yes it's about that iirc.

I dare say it's swings & roundabouts - some will use it & some won't. The UK could make it higher should it choose to.


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## Love Karma

Well if thats the case to cost out a system using the method of "swings & roundabouts - some will use it & some won't" is utterly insane, loved to have been in that finance planning meeting. Pity Car Hire firms at Spanish airports don't use a similar model when they load a large fee on your credit card.


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## Lynn R

xabiachica said:


> Yes it's about that iirc.
> 
> I dare say it's swings & roundabouts - some will use it & some won't. The UK could make it higher should it choose to.


They are doubling the NHS surcharge to 400 pounds per year - and for working immigrants with visas, that is in addition to the NI contributions they are paying.

https://www.ey.com/gl/en/services/p...urcharge-associated-with-uk-visa-applications


----------



## Overandout

Love Karma said:


> Spin it however you wish.....but you said and I quote "_but until I see a Spanish Govt website or law which says explicitly that *Foreigners who have been registered as residents in Spain for over 5 years are eligible for state health care* I would be very cautious about relying on that._
> 
> And the above shows just that......we were never discussing new registrations


I don't really see how reading the entire Clause instead of just the first line can be described as "spinning it how I want", but of course for every lawyer and judge, there is a different interpretation so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

In any case, and this is important for people reading this thread, I was not talking about new registrations either. As per the Ley de Extranjería, we are required to have full health care cover during our entire residency in Spain, not just when you first register. The fact that they only check when you register is not relevant. It is like arguing that you don't need the brakes on your car to work right now because it passed the ITV 6 months ago.


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## Allie-P

xabiachica said:


> People might well believe that, but it isn't true.
> 
> Not all foreigners living in the UK have the right to use the NHS.



Sorry, I meant those from the EU. I appreciate it is more complicated for the non-EU ‘foreigners’ who settle in the UK......


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## xabiaxica

Allie-P said:


> Sorry, I meant those from the EU. I appreciate it is more complicated for the non-EU ‘foreigners’ who settle in the UK......


Yes, those from the EU do. 

There was no reason for that though. EU regs are that countries can require EU citizens to register & have their own provision for healthcare & prove income / funds. 

I believe that the UK has been only one to decide NOT insist on registration.


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## Overandout

Elyles said:


> Interesting interpretation and what is your interpretation of Transatoria Disposition One I the law at the top of the last page that says (in English):
> 
> Transitory disposition first. Convenio Especial on the provision of health care.
> Special health care agreements signed under Article 3.3 of law 16/2003 of 28 May for those persons who, after the entry into force of this Royal Decree-Law, have the right to receive the assistance In the Spanish territory from public funds, they will remain in force until the last day of the natural month in which this Royal Decree-law enters into force.
> 
> 
> That nullifies the Convenio Especial, for those of us who have used that program for over five years. If I recall correctly, those on the program in Andalusia were converted to the public system. It all remains to be seen at this point what the outcome will be.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


OK, I have read the full RD linked to (note that my interpretation is based on the original text because if there is one thing I have learnt working in legal matters in Spain it is that providing a legal opinion based on a Google translation is next to useless), so I may not use the same terminology as the linked translation does.

And you are not going to like this but:

The first transitory provision which you refer to, to my understanding, simply means that if any person who previously used a "convenio especial" arrangement to obtain the status of insured under the Spanish system, now under the new rules of article 3 (all of it, not just the first part) becomes entitled to cover, the convenio which they were previously using remains in force until the last day of the month of the month in which the RD came into effect.

This doesn't mean that all "convenios especiales" will end, far from it, because the Article 3 of the new RD, in paragraph 3, states that people who do not attain the status of insured by means of paragraphs 1 and 2 of the same Article can get that status by means of entering into a convenio especial.

For me it is clear that this new RD provides free health care for those who are Spanish, or in Spain without the need to evidence health care support from another means (e.g. refugees). It does not change the law on extranjería (which obliges "normal"immigrants to arrange for their own health provisions without taking from the state) and it does not do away with the convenio especial.


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## Elyles

Overandout said:


> OK, I have read the full RD linked to (note that my interpretation is based on the original text because if there is one thing I have learnt working in legal matters in Spain it is that providing a legal opinion based on a Google translation is next to useless), so I may not use the same terminology as the linked translation does.
> 
> 
> 
> And you are not going to like this but:
> 
> 
> 
> The first transitory provision which you refer to, to my understanding, simply means that if any person who previously used a "convenio especial" arrangement to obtain the status of insured under the Spanish system, now under the new rules of article 3 (all of it, not just the first part) becomes entitled to cover, the convenio which they were previously using remains in force until the last day of the month of the month in which the RD came into effect.
> 
> 
> 
> This doesn't mean that all "convenios especiales" will end, far from it, because the Article 3 of the new RD, in paragraph 3, states that people who do not attain the status of insured by means of paragraphs 1 and 2 of the same Article can get that status by means of entering into a convenio especial.
> 
> 
> 
> For me it is clear that this new RD provides free health care for those who are Spanish, or in Spain without the need to evidence health care support from another means (e.g. refugees). It does not change the law on extranjería (which obliges "normal"immigrants to arrange for their own health provisions without taking from the state) and it does not do away with the convenio especial.




Very clear. then we are entitled to coverage, having been on the Convenio since 2015. I thought this from the first. Where the problem arose was that I am an admin on a page for Americans and some of our members are being refused entry but they have never been on the CE either. I just need to wait for the Government of Aragon to pull their heads out of where the sun doesn’t shine to to the work to qualify us.


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## Love Karma

Overandout said:


> For me it is clear that this new RD provides free health care for those who are Spanish, or in Spain without the need to evidence health care support from another means (e.g. refugees). It does not change the law on extranjería (which obliges "normal"immigrants to arrange for their own health provisions without taking from the state) *and it does not do away with the convenio especial.*


So please explain then why in Andalucia the Convenio Especial was annulled and no longer exists and people had their monthly payments refunded and received follow up letters saying they were now entitled to free health care?


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## Mud

Love Karma said:


> So please explain then why in Andalucia the Convenio Especial was annulled and no longer exists and people had their monthly payments refunded and received follow up letters saying they were now entitled to free health care?


where can i find out more about this?


----------



## Allie-P

xabiachica said:


> Yes, those from the EU do.
> 
> There was no reason for that though. EU regs are that countries can require EU citizens to register & have their own provision for healthcare & prove income / funds.
> 
> I believe that the UK has been only one to decide NOT insist on registration.



Yes, ‘tis true. Goodness knows why !!! If they had, there might not have been a Brexit.

I heard the other day on UK radio that Belgium would only allow free movement, if those moving to their country had already secured a job.....

Sounds logical !!


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## kaipa

I agree with the remarks about trying to translate Spanish laws into English then arguing your case. People are quoting this RD as though it is written in English and there are subtleties of meaning that lead to misunderstandings. I still stick to the view it was implemented as a political gesture by the new Socialist government to allow medical care for undocumented persons. Whenever government ministers talked about it on the news it was always couched in that context.


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## Elyles

iris muddy said:


> where can i find out more about this?




There is no more to find out right now. What you are saying is true but very little has been done in any of the other communities so we have no idea what the final outcome will be. I did however read a legal blurb recently that stated that the part regarding the CE was law for the country can could not be changed. 


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## Love Karma

iris muddy said:


> where can i find out more about this?


Its been well documented here in this forum


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## Overandout

Love Karma said:


> So please explain then why in Andalucia the Convenio Especial was annulled and no longer exists and people had their monthly payments refunded and received follow up letters saying they were now entitled to free health care?


I haven't read anything about the Andalucian decision so I can't explain it, but if they have interpreted the RD to mean that all people in Spain have free health care, then good for the people in their catchment area. I would be interested to read the legal basis for their action though if you find anything.

Based on only the RD text, I don't think they are right, but I (like the rest of us) am just a "keyboard warrior" with no say in things at that level.


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## Love Karma

Overandout said:


> I haven't read anything about the Andalucian decision so I can't explain it, but if they have interpreted the RD to mean that all people in Spain have free health care, then good for the people in their catchment area. I would be interested to read the legal basis for their action though if you find anything.
> 
> Based on only the RD text, I don't think they are right, but I (like the rest of us) am just a "keyboard warrior" with no say in things at that level.


I am surprised you've not read about Andalucia's cancelling of the Convenio as its been well documented in this forum and many other relevant sites. But the Fact remains that this is the situation in Andalucia. Convenio Especial Finito


----------



## Overandout

Love Karma said:


> I am surprised you've not read about Andalucia's cancelling of the Convenio as its been well documented in this forum and many other relevant sites. But the Fact remains that this is the situation in Andalucia. Convenio Especial Finito


You misunderstand. I know that it has happened. But I have not read any legal basis of the decision to make it happen.
But then living in Madrid, it is not my main concern.


----------



## kaipa

Overandout comments regarding the RD and the need to interpret the initial part with part 3 is exactly how I and my ex ( who is Spanish speaker and was dealing with it as part of her work). The CE is one of many and if you read the posters remarks such a reading would mean it is designed for certain types of people. I have seen that Overandout has a fairly high level of spanish so working directly with the actual spanish text probably provides a more thorough understanding.


----------



## Elyles

kaipa said:


> Overandout comments regarding the RD and the need to interpret the initial part with part 3 is exactly how I and my ex ( who is Spanish speaker and was dealing with it as part of her work). The CE is one of many and if you read the posters remarks such a reading would mean it is designed for certain types of people. I have seen that Overandout has a fairly high level of spanish so working directly with the actual spanish text probably provides a more thorough understanding.




The CE is for those who do not have access to other sources for healthcare


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Alcalaina

Love Karma said:


> So please explain then why in Andalucia the Convenio Especial was annulled and no longer exists and people had their monthly payments refunded and received follow up letters saying they were now entitled to free health care?


Andalucia always provided free health care to "sin recursos" and refused to implement the former government's new law removing free treatment for undocumented migrants.

Things might change now of course with a new right-wing government, but the principle in this region is that universal free healthcare should be a basic right.


----------



## Love Karma

Alcalaina said:


> Andalucia always provided free health care to "sin recursos" and refused to implement the former government's new law removing free treatment for undocumented migrants.
> 
> Things might change now of course with a new right-wing government, but the principle in this region is that universal free healthcare should be a basic right.


Yes thats been my experience and understanding of the situation. I was only stating that the Convenio Especial no longer exists in Andalucia but my experience is only in the Malaga and Nerja area. Does it still exist in your area of Andalucia?


----------



## Megsmum

Love Karma said:


> Yes thats been my experience and understanding of the situation. I was only stating that the Convenio Especial no longer exists in Andalucia but my experience is only in the Malaga and Nerja area. Does it still exist in your area of Andalucia?


Do you have it then?


----------



## Love Karma

Megsmum said:


> Do you have it then?


Yes


----------



## Megsmum

Love Karma said:


> Yes


As in Convenio especial or free healthcare?


----------



## Love Karma

Megsmum said:


> As in Convenio especial or free healthcare?


As in Free Health Care


----------



## kaipa

So love karma. You are proof that this decree is now law. I had heard rumours but you are the first to confirm that it is being implemented to mean that anyone who without recourse to other means is entitled to free healhcate. If that is the case then it means this will be the case for many of us if Brexit doesn't pan out well. Thank god


----------



## Alcalaina

Love Karma said:


> Yes thats been my experience and understanding of the situation. I was only stating that the Convenio Especial no longer exists in Andalucia but my experience is only in the Malaga and Nerja area. Does it still exist in your area of Andalucia?


No, my friends in Jerez (Cadiz province) had theirs refunded.


----------



## Love Karma

Alcalaina said:


> No, my friends in Jerez (Cadiz province) had theirs refunded.


And did they also get the follow up letter telling them they were now entitled to free health care like others in the Andalucia Province?


----------



## Love Karma

kaipa said:


> So love karma. You are proof that this decree is now law. I had heard rumours but you are the first to confirm that it is being implemented to mean that anyone who without recourse to other means is entitled to free healhcate. If that is the case then it means this will be the case for many of us if Brexit doesn't pan out well. Thank god


If you're in Andalucia I would assume so, but seeing as it says you're in Scotland I doubt it.


----------



## kaipa

Hang on Love karma. I'm saying that it is good. And I live in spain


----------



## Rabbitcat

Bottom line is no region of Spain apart from Andalucia has recognised this " decree" and going by past lack of adherence may well be the case no other regions ever do

I think it's important to get across on this forum- especially to new members - that free healthcare to all foreigners is still pie in the sky

You must TAKE PRIVATE HEALTH INS- if you are not of pension age


----------



## Megsmum

Love Karma said:


> As in Free Health Care


More information please!

How long have you been resident in Spain and how long on CE. Have you actually got a tarjeta de salud or just the letter. Do you have. Copy of the letter that you could post on here - obviously with personal details blanked out - as others could use that as proof , possibly for other areas ?


----------



## Elyles

Rabbitcat said:


> Bottom line is no region of Spain apart from Andalucia has recognised this " decree" and going by past lack of adherence may well be the case no other regions ever do
> 
> I think it's important to get across on this forum- especially to new members - that free healthcare to all foreigners is still pie in the sky
> 
> You must TAKE PRIVATE HEALTH INS- if you are not of pension age




And if pension age public healthcare does not apply for foreigners from outside the EU unless they have bought into he Convenio Especial and that has no farmacy benefits.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Alcalaina

Love Karma said:


> And did they also get the follow up letter telling them they were now entitled to free health care like others in the Andalucia Province?


I've no idea, but they are definitely getting free healthcare and don't have to pay full rate for prescriptions any more. They are early retirers so not covered by S1.


----------



## Elyles

Last week I sent my monthly inquiry email to the health department of Aragon citing clauses in the new healthcare law regarding those on the Convenio Especial. I sent them a response asking if the government had as of yet drawn up admission procedures to the program and they immediately sent the following

https://www.saludinforma.es/portals...ncia-sanitaria/asistencia-sanitaria-universal

And here is a machine translation

Universal health care for foreign persons not registered or authorized as residents in Spain, in the area of the public health system of Aragon


The Department of Health has established a new procedure to enable access to universal health care for foreign persons not registered or authorized as residents of Spain, in the area of the public health system of Aragon. Replaces the measures envisaged by the repealed instruction of 7 August 2015, of the health councillor, which regulated access to health care in Aragon for foreign persons without sufficient financial resources or assistance coverage Of the National health care system. 

Object and scope of application



Establish the procedure for access to universal health care for foreign persons not registered or authorized as resident in Spain under article 3 ter of Law 16/2003, of 28 May, of cohesion and quality of the system National Health, after its modification by the approval of Royal Decree-Law 7/2018, of 27 July, on universal access to the national health system. This model disconnects the insurance from the public funds of the Social security and is linked to the residence in Spain, strengthening the national health system as a right linked to the citizenship. Foreign persons who are not registered or authorized as residents of Spain, who will be entitled to receive assistance under the same conditions as the Spaniards, may apply for this recognition, provided that they qualify Required in article 3 of law 16/2003, of 28 May, of cohesion and quality of the national health System. Benefits and Temporality



The coverage of the benefits will be that of the entire portfolio of services of the Aragonese health service, in equal conditions of access that the rest of insured, within the territorial scope of the autonomous community of Aragon. The health coverage provided does not grant the right to receive assistance outside Spain. The validity of this document will be two years, renewable while the situation of effective residence in Spain persists and meets the criteria established in the standard. Requirements for foreigners ' access to health care



In order to have access to health coverage in this way it will be necessary to comply with the following requirements:



Not having the obligation to accredit the compulsory coverage of the health benefit by another way, by virtue of the provisions of the law of the European Union, the bilateral agreements and other applicable legislation. Not being able to export the right of health coverage from their country of origin or provenance. There is No third party obliged to pay. Registration certificate must be filed in a municipality of the autonomous Community of Aragon for a minimum period of 3 uninterrupted months prior to the date of the application. For the purposes of this time, it may be possible to compute, where appropriate, the previous registration in any Spanish municipality. 

Access procedure (PDF 535 KB. Revised: 09/11/2018) to universal health care for foreign persons not registered or authorized as residents of Spain.

As you can see, this is written for non residents, or people right off the immigrant boats, nobody else.I have sent them two responses to indicate this. I really hope that Aragon is not interpreting the new law for this population only. I wonder how they could avoid the law as written?


----------



## kaipa

Unfortunately I really don't see anyway this can be resolved. One group of persons interprets as quite simply an issue of healthcare for undocumented immigrants the other as free healthcare to all legal residents without recourse to other means. For those who have lived here in Spain a long time this probably means it will simply be something that depends on where you live and who you deal with. For example, when I arrived here I had free healthcare because I seemed to still be on the system from when I previously lived here. But I still had to get residence the normal way by showing funds etc. A work college of mine had SIP card sent to her address even though she had never applied for residence!. So it works in really strange ways. For people in Andulicia it is interpreted one way for other communities it works another.


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## Megsmum

If I’m honest. Unless this was rolled out universally I would not be happy having CE CX and free healthcare as I’m not sure how long this will last for and what the consequences will be when a new government changes its mind. Too many variables for me


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## kaipa

Yeah. With VOX gaining popularity POSE probably want be wanting to push it too far.


----------



## Overandout

Elyles said:


> Last week I sent my monthly inquiry email to the health department of Aragon citing clauses in the new healthcare law regarding those on the Convenio Especial. I sent them a response asking if the government had as of yet drawn up admission procedures to the program and they immediately sent the following
> 
> https://www.saludinforma.es/portals...ncia-sanitaria/asistencia-sanitaria-universal
> 
> And here is a machine translation
> 
> Universal health care for foreign persons not registered or authorized as residents in Spain, in the area of the public health system of Aragon
> 
> 
> The Department of Health has established a new procedure to enable access to universal health care for foreign persons not registered or authorized as residents of Spain, in the area of the public health system of Aragon. Replaces the measures envisaged by the repealed instruction of 7 August 2015, of the health councillor, which regulated access to health care in Aragon for foreign persons without sufficient financial resources or assistance coverage Of the National health care system.
> 
> Object and scope of application
> 
> 
> 
> Establish the procedure for access to universal health care for foreign persons not registered or authorized as resident in Spain under article 3 ter of Law 16/2003, of 28 May, of cohesion and quality of the system National Health, after its modification by the approval of Royal Decree-Law 7/2018, of 27 July, on universal access to the national health system. This model disconnects the insurance from the public funds of the Social security and is linked to the residence in Spain, strengthening the national health system as a right linked to the citizenship. Foreign persons who are not registered or authorized as residents of Spain, who will be entitled to receive assistance under the same conditions as the Spaniards, may apply for this recognition, provided that they qualify Required in article 3 of law 16/2003, of 28 May, of cohesion and quality of the national health System. Benefits and Temporality
> 
> 
> 
> The coverage of the benefits will be that of the entire portfolio of services of the Aragonese health service, in equal conditions of access that the rest of insured, within the territorial scope of the autonomous community of Aragon. The health coverage provided does not grant the right to receive assistance outside Spain. The validity of this document will be two years, renewable while the situation of effective residence in Spain persists and meets the criteria established in the standard. Requirements for foreigners ' access to health care
> 
> 
> 
> In order to have access to health coverage in this way it will be necessary to comply with the following requirements:
> 
> 
> 
> Not having the obligation to accredit the compulsory coverage of the health benefit by another way, by virtue of the provisions of the law of the European Union, the bilateral agreements and other applicable legislation. Not being able to export the right of health coverage from their country of origin or provenance. There is No third party obliged to pay. Registration certificate must be filed in a municipality of the autonomous Community of Aragon for a minimum period of 3 uninterrupted months prior to the date of the application. For the purposes of this time, it may be possible to compute, where appropriate, the previous registration in any Spanish municipality.
> 
> Access procedure (PDF 535 KB. Revised: 09/11/2018) to universal health care for foreign persons not registered or authorized as residents of Spain.
> 
> As you can see, this is written for non residents, or people right off the immigrant boats, nobody else.I have sent them two responses to indicate this. I really hope that Aragon is not interpreting the new law for this population only. I wonder how they could avoid the law as written?


This is a good summary of the situation as I understand it.

I think there has been a lot of misinformation, above all in the press about this which has created false hope.


----------



## Allie-P

Thank you Overandout for posting that.

What is the reason for cancelling the Convenio Especial in Andalusia, though ?


----------



## Overandout

I refer you to my previous answer to a very similar question:



Overandout said:


> I haven't read anything about the Andalucian decision so I can't explain it, but if they have interpreted the RD to mean that all people in Spain have free health care, then good for the people in their catchment area. I would be interested to read the legal basis for their action though if you find anything.
> 
> Based on only the RD text, I don't think they are right, but I (like the rest of us) am just a "keyboard warrior" with no say in things at that level.


----------



## Elyles

Allie-P said:


> Thank you Overandout for posting that.
> 
> What is the reason for cancelling the Convenio Especial in Andalusia, though ?




That has to do with Transatory Disposition 1 of the law which qualifies those on the CE and says it is null and void at the end of the month. Legally this is something the Autonomous Communities have no say on. 


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## Overandout

Elyles said:


> That has to do with Transatory Disposition 1 of the law which qualifies those on the CE and says it is null and void at the end of the month. Legally this is something the Autonomous Communities have no say on.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


It does not say that. It says that for anyone who gains the status of insured via the revised Article 3 of law 16/2003, the Convenio Especial to which they are subscribed will run until the end of the month in which the RD came into force.

The RD itself cannot "cancel" the Convenio Especial, the RD modifies the text of the law from 2003 and in the new redaction, the Convenio Especial is still foreseen as a way for people with no way of becoming considered as insured to obtain health care.


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## Elyles

Overandout said:


> It does not say that. It says that for anyone who gains the status of insured via the revised Article 3 of law 16/2003, the Convenio Especial to which they are subscribed will run until the end of the month in which the RD came into force.
> 
> 
> 
> The RD itself cannot "cancel" the Convenio Especial, the RD modifies the text of the law from 2003 and in the new redaction, the Convenio Especial is still foreseen as a way for people with no way of becoming considered as insured to obtain health care.




Hell, a lot better said than my dialogue. I can talk psychological issues all day long but legal, no way! Thanks for the correction. Now that brings us back to the original question as to why Andalucia made it null and void? If you can answer that one then you should open a booth selling advice on dealing with the Spanish government.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## kaipa

Presumably you mean misinformation in the local English speaking press? When I read about it in the national Spanish papers it was always contextualized as a symbol of Sanchez's desire to allow a more humane treatment of the recently arrived illegals. Part of the reasoning was that providing more than emergency care for this group would be more cost effective than PP system. I really don't think it was intended as a way of overhauling the whole public health care system. I think the danger of translating the whole thing into English then having present ideas about how it would work in another country without first examining the initial motivations behind it has led to a degree of confusion


----------



## Overandout

kaipa said:


> Presumably you mean misinformation in the local English speaking press? When I read about it in the national Spanish papers it was always contextualized as a symbol of Sanchez's desire to allow a more humane treatment of the recently arrived illegals. Part of the reasoning was that providing more than emergency care for this group would be more cost effective than PP system.


Mainly yes.

But I think I recall Spanish press extracts which did not really paint the whole picture.



kaipa said:


> I really don't think it was intended as a way of overhauling the whole public health care system.


Indeed, I don't think that it was sold like that to the public at all.



kaipa said:


> I think the danger of translating the whole thing into English then having present ideas about how it would work in another country without first examining the initial motivations behind it has led to a degree of confusion


Yes, I agree, but giving credit to the people on here who are having trouble accepting this reading of the law, the actions of the health service in Andalucia are indeed confusing, and cannot be put down to poor translation.


----------



## Allie-P

Still confused about the cancellation of el convenio especial. I am very lucky, It doesn’t affect me and mine, We are very fortunately covered by my S1. 

Perhaps, we might hear from those who are in that position. Phew, at times, it’s hard work living in Spain. Not that I am complaining - the pros are way ahead of the cons !!


----------



## xabiaxica

Allie-P said:


> Still confused about the cancellation of el convenio especial. I am very lucky, It doesn’t affect me and mine, We are very fortunately covered by my S1.
> 
> Perhaps, we might hear from those who are in that position. Phew, at times, it’s hard work living in Spain. Not that I am complaining - the pros are way ahead of the cons !!


It was cancelled in Andalucía because all residents in that region now get free healthcare - so they can't charge anyone.


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## Elyles

*New health changes*

You know, I was warned about one particular expat advice column being wrong in the past. I continued to want to believe them on the healthcare law being a repeat of the pre 2012 law here where everyone did have universal coverage. I kept reading their interpretation of the law thinking it correct until I got my email from the health department last week stating otherwise. Oh well, nothing lost here except time reading their BS.


We just received a phone call from my friend at INSS who verified that we do not qualify for free healthcare, Convenio Especial or no. I am glad this garbage is over for me.

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## kaipa

But CE isn't available in all parts of Spain? ( is it?)


----------



## xabiaxica

kaipa said:


> But CE isn't available in all parts of Spain? ( is it?)


No, it isn't.


----------



## kaipa

Elyses. You have always come across as quite reasonable about this dilemma and I can understand your frustrations in trying to figure out where it is going. Your updates from official sources contributes a lot to this.


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## kaipa

I mean they contribute a lot to helping us move the debate forward


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## xabiaxica

Elyles said:


> You know, I was warned about one particular expat advice column being wrong in the past. I continued to want to believe them on the healthcare law being a repeat of the pre 2012 law here where everyone did have universal coverage. I kept reading their interpretation of the law thinking it correct until I got my email from the health department last week stating otherwise. Oh well, nothing lost here except time reading their BS.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


If it's the website I think you're talking about, sadly you're not alone in thinking that they are some kind of official govt department (even though they now have it somewhere on the site that they aren't) & people believe eveything they say - until they learn otherwise.

They've been wrong before. Their take on things is never that THEY are wrong though, but that the powers that be in Spain are interpreting their own laws wrongly!


----------



## kaipa

Yes that site does seem to suggest that they are an official site but I don't think it is true. They seem to always end everything by saying you should seek independent legal advice which seems strange give the surety of their announcements.


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## kaipa

Don't want to put the cat amongst the pigeons but if the CE isn't universal then can it not be introduced and withdrawal on the say of the ruling party?


----------



## xabiaxica

kaipa said:


> Yes that site does seem to suggest that they are an official site but I don't think it is true. They seem to always end everything by saying you should seek independent legal advice which seems strange give the surety of their announcements.


Yep, that's their legal covering their a%%es.

It definitely isn't official in any way, none are lawyers, & they are 'only' giving an opinion.

Yet time & again sadly, people take their word as gospel & they are hailed as all-knowing experts.


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## kaipa

Unfortunately they are very convincing. They do write in a manner that suggests they are legally qualified individuals and radio interviews seem to suggest that they are an official government mouth piece.


----------



## xabiaxica

kaipa said:


> Don't want to put the cat amongst the pigeons but if the CE isn't universal then can it not be introduced and withdrawal on the say of the ruling party?


Originally it was 'supposed' to national. Lots of comunidades still haven't made it available though - maybe never will.


----------



## Elyles

kaipa said:


> Yes that site does seem to suggest that they are an official site but I don't think it is true. They seem to always end everything by saying you should seek independent legal advice which seems strange give the surety of their announcements.




I got canned while in training to be a moderator with their FB group for
1. Knowing little about the British culture and
2. Having a sense of humor

Their deal is hitting everyone up for donations and coming across like they are experts on every aspect of Expat life. They are trained to most always push someone to a person giving advice for 10€ a pop. I am an admin on another site and have been informed by our members that the advice they were given was pretty simple stuff they could have discovered on their own.

There is nothing official about their site. Try to get anyone to respond to questions without being referred to a site where they ask you to pay. The site is not a competitor to this one because it is not a forum.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## kaipa

Yes. They have pushed this healthcare thing quite vigorously suggesting the confusion is a result of the incompetence of various juntas. Sometimes they can be a bit disparaging about funcinarios as well.


----------



## xabiaxica

Elyles said:


> I got canned while in training to be a moderator with their FB group for
> 1. Knowing little about the British culture and
> 2. Having a sense of humor
> 
> Their deal is hitting everyone up for donations and coming across like they are experts on every aspect of Expat life. They are trained to most always push someone to a person giving advice for 10€ a pop. I am an admin on another site and have been informed by our members that the advice they were given was pretty simple stuff they could have discovered on their own.
> 
> There is nothing official about their site. Try to get anyone to respond to questions without being referred to a site where they ask you to pay. The site is not a competitor to this one because it is not a forum.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Oh it is a forum. It isn't run by experts in Spanish law any more than this is.

The only difefrence is members won't answer questions because admin came down like a ton of bricks on them if they do. 

Or at least there used to be a section for members to ask & answer questions. Even if that isn't there now ( I haven't looked) it's still people asking questions & being answered by lay people.


----------



## Rabbitcat

Always thought it was too good to be true

But that doesn't really explain why there's now free healthcare in Andalucia but nowhere else


----------



## Overandout

Rabbitcat said:


> Always thought it was too good to be true
> 
> But that doesn't really explain why there's now free healthcare in Andalucia but nowhere else


And what's to say that other CA´s don't follow the example of Andalucia and start giving health care to all and sundry?

Just because this doesn't seem to be the application of the Real Decreto, doesn't mean that they are prohibited from doing it.


----------



## kaipa

My understanding is that Andalucia has always been pushing for it through local government
If you look at websites back in 2014 you can see they were very pro universal healthcare. So It really looks as though different communidades can implement CE if they want. Presumably they can also offer free health care to those individuals they feel deserving of it. I think Andalucia have been treating undocumented migrants before this decree.


----------



## Elyles

kaipa said:


> My understanding is that Andalucia has always been pushing for it through local government
> If you look at websites back in 2014 you can see they were very pro universal healthcare. So It really looks as though different communidades can implement CE if they want. Presumably they can also offer free health care to those individuals they feel deserving of it. I think Andalucia have been treating undocumented migrants before this decree.


Here in Aragon it only applies to undocumented immigrants

Sent from my LG-K420 using Tapatalk


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## Alcalaina

Just found this on the NHS website (UK):



> Please note that in the region of Andalusia it is no longer possible to apply for the Convenio Especial. To register for access to healthcare in this region you can approach your local healthcare centre and ask to register for access to healthcare under the new Universal Healthcare Law (Royal Decree Law 7/2018).


CE seems to be alive and well in the remaining regions.


----------



## Elyles

Alcalaina said:


> Just found this on the NHS website (UK):
> 
> 
> 
> CE seems to be alive and well in the remaining regions.


From what I learned last month. Most other Communities have defined the new law to only apply to immigrants


----------



## baldilocks

Elyles said:


> From what I learned last month. Most other Communities have defined the new law to only apply to* immigrants*


Isn't that what we are?


----------



## Elyles

I thought so too but since the law passed last July, I had been mailing monthly requests to the Dept of Health in Aragon for information. At least here in Aragon the only people that the new law applies to are undocumented immigrants. They finally sent me this.
https://www.saludinforma.es/portals...ncia-sanitaria/asistencia-sanitaria-universal


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## Alcalaina

baldilocks said:


> Isn't that what we are?


In Spanish governmnent-speak we are _ciudadanos/as_, not _inmigrantes_. At least until 29 March ...


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## Roy C

I thought people went from the convention into state health, immigrants, ex Pat's or whatever. So it doesn't make sense the definition of immigrants.


----------



## snikpoh

Roy C said:


> I thought people went from the convention into state health, immigrants, ex Pat's or whatever. So it doesn't make sense the definition of immigrants.


How could they go from Convenio Especial into state health care?


----------



## xabiaxica

snikpoh said:


> How could they go from Convenio Especial into state health care?


I have friends in Andalucía who have done just that.
On convenio especial for a few years, but with the ruling, still have full rights to healthcare but no longer have to pay.


----------



## snikpoh

xabiaxica said:


> I have friends in Andalucía who have done just that.
> On convenio especial for a few years, but with the ruling, still have full rights to healthcare but no longer have to pay.


I understand about Andalucia but not as a generalisation.

Also, in Andalucia NOW, you don't go via CE, you go directly to state health care.


----------



## xabiaxica

snikpoh said:


> I understand about Andalucia but not as a generalisation.
> 
> Also, in Andalucia NOW, you don't go via CE, you go directly to state health care.


True - other regions haven't adopted it, though I still think that some will.


----------



## kaipa

Andalucia is proving the exception. Valencia region only applies the decree to undocumented illegals. Pointless trying to predict if when it will change


----------



## baldilocks

But with the change of government in Andalucía, that may all change.


----------



## kaipa

Yes very true with VOX having more control I don't think this policy will continue. The free healthcare was very much the socialist government s baby.


----------



## Roy C

It has been introduced by central government which is to the left of centre and already been introduced in Andalucia so who knows but probably more than likely it will remain (my favourite word  ) otherwise they would have to reintroduce the convenio.


----------



## The Skipper

Interesting article today in El Pais under the heading "As a general election is called, which policies will have to be shelved?" Under the sub-heading "health" it says: "A royal decree that ensured that everyone in Spain could have access to healthcare was approved by the Cabinet last July, but went no further given the government’s decision to pass it as a law instead. The draft legislation has not yet begun its passage through Congress." Perhaps this explains why regional governments appeared to ignore the new policy?


----------



## Love Karma

The Skipper said:


> Interesting article today in El Pais under the heading "As a general election is called, which policies will have to be shelved?" Under the sub-heading "health" it says: "A royal decree that ensured that everyone in Spain could have access to healthcare was approved by the Cabinet last July, but went no further given the government’s decision to pass it as a law instead. *The draft legislation has not yet begun its passage through Congress." *Perhaps this explains why regional governments appeared to ignore the new policy?


I was under the impression it had gone through Congress last September? 


*El Congreso aprueba el decreto ley de universalización de la sanidad con*173 votos a favor, 133 en contra y 31 abstenciones. El PP vota en contra y Ciudadanos se abstiene.*
https://elpais.com/politica/2018/09/06/actualidad/1536224502_681558.html


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## The Skipper

Love Karma said:


> I was under the impression it had gone through Congress last September?
> 
> 
> *El Congreso aprueba el decreto ley de universalización de la sanidad con*173 votos a favor, 133 en contra y 31 abstenciones. El PP vota en contra y Ciudadanos se abstiene.*
> https://elpais.com/politica/2018/09/06/actualidad/1536224502_681558.html


Here's the link to yesterday's El Pais article: https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/02/15/inenglish/1550228667_985380.html


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## Elyles

The Skipper said:


> Here's the link to yesterday's El Pais article: https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/02/15/inenglish/1550228667_985380.html




Interesting read. Now the British Forum/Advice column will enjoy eating crow with their less than realistic forceful assumptions that (The Healthcare will be free for all). 



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## Love Karma

The Skipper said:


> Here's the link to yesterday's El Pais article: https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/02/15/inenglish/1550228667_985380.html


Possible lost in translation? I would rather believe the report from September in Spanish with the actual factual figures of the result, it was widely reported in the Spainsh media not just El Pais

https://www.eldiario.es/sociedad/Congreso-aprueba-decreto-recupera-universal_0_811569525.html
https://www.elplural.com/politica/congreso-aprueba-mayoria-recuperar-la-sanidad-universal_202560102

*Even video evidence of the event*

https://www.abc.es/espana/abci-cong...era-sanidad-universal-201809061620_video.html


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## The Skipper

Love Karma said:


> Possible lost in translation? I would rather believe the report from September in Spanish with the actual factual figures of the result, it was widely reported in the Spainsh media not just El Pais
> 
> https://www.eldiario.es/sociedad/Congreso-aprueba-decreto-recupera-universal_0_811569525.html
> https://www.elplural.com/politica/congreso-aprueba-mayoria-recuperar-la-sanidad-universal_202560102
> 
> *Even video evidence of the event*
> 
> https://www.abc.es/espana/abci-cong...era-sanidad-universal-201809061620_video.html


Well, that's a mystery! Perhaps the El Pais in English story is a cock-up. Or perhaps there is another explanation. No doubt someone will tell us!


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## Elyles

The Skipper said:


> Well, that's a mystery! Perhaps the El Pais in English story is a cock-up. Or perhaps there is another explanation. No doubt someone will tell us!




I’m no longer worrying about it. It isn’t worth the energy


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## JulyB

No, it says the same in the Spanish version as well: https://elpais.com/politica/2019/02/15/actualidad/1550218652_086319.amp.html

“Además, el real decreto ley para la universalización de la atención sanitaria, aunque fue aprobado por el Consejo de Ministros el 27 de julio del año pasado, no se ha desarrollado porque el Gobierno decidió transformarlo en proyecto de ley, cuyo trámite no ha comenzado en el Congreso.”

Basically, from that, to me it looks like although the law was agreed, the rollout of the law across the country has to be agreed by Congress, so it won’t be happening.


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## Michael Kelly

There is universal free health care in Catalyuna, including those without legal residence.


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## Love Karma

JulyB said:


> No, it says the same in the Spanish version as well: https://elpais.com/politica/2019/02/15/actualidad/1550218652_086319.amp.html
> 
> “Además, el real decreto ley para la universalización de la atención sanitaria, aunque fue aprobado por el Consejo de Ministros el 27 de julio del año pasado, no se ha desarrollado porque el Gobierno decidió transformarlo en proyecto de ley, cuyo trámite no ha comenzado en el Congreso.”
> 
> Basically, from that, to me it looks like although the law was agreed, the rollout of the law across the country *has to be agreed by Congress, so it won’t be happening*.


Please explain what part of the video I posted above of congress voting it through last September 173 votes against 133 that you can't grasp.

https://www.abc.es/espana/abci-cong...era-sanidad-universal-201809061620_video.html

Also it was implemented in Andalucia within a few weeks of congress voting in favour.


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## snikpoh

Love Karma said:


> Please explain what part of the video I posted above of congress voting it through last September 173 votes against 133 that you can't grasp.
> 
> https://www.abc.es/espana/abci-congr...620_video.html
> 
> Also it was implemented in Andalucia within a few weeks of congress voting in favour.



The problem, I suspect, is that the link doesn't work (at least it doesn't for me)


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## Love Karma

snikpoh said:


> The problem, I suspect, is that the link doesn't work (at least it doesn't for me)


Works for me, but here it is again.


https://www.abc.es/espana/abci-cong...era-sanidad-universal-201809061620_video.html


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## JulyB

Love Karma said:


> Please explain what part of the video I posted above of congress voting it through last September 173 votes against 133 that you can't grasp.
> 
> https://www.abc.es/espana/abci-cong...era-sanidad-universal-201809061620_video.html
> 
> Also it was implemented in Andalucia within a few weeks of congress voting in favour.


Read the article in Spanish that I quoted above. Yes, everyone knows it was passed, but it has not been rolled out everywhere and now it will not be. And of course the next govt will probably try to remove it where it has been put in place.


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## Love Karma

JulyB said:


> Read the article in Spanish that I quoted above. Yes, everyone knows it was passed, but it has not been rolled out everywhere and now it will not be. And of course the next govt will probably try to remove it where it has been put in place.


Irrelevant as my response was to the poster who said it had NOT passed through Congress when it undeniably has, nothing at all to do with it rolling out across regions. And to your follow up post again regarding it having to pass through Congress " _the rollout of the law across the country has to be agreed by Congress, so it won’t be happening."_

Also could you please supply a link to some factual evidence of your statement " but it has not been rolled out everywhere and *now it will not be*" and what do you base the statement that the next government will try to remove it. That is pure speculation.


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## snikpoh

Love Karma said:


> Irrelevant as my response was to the poster who said it had NOT passed through Congress when it undeniably has, nothing at all to do with it rolling out across regions. And to your follow up post again regarding it having to pass through Congress " _the rollout of the law across the country has to be agreed by Congress, so it won’t be happening."_
> 
> Also could you please supply a link to some factual evidence of your statement " but it has not been rolled out everywhere and *now it will not be*" and what do you base the statement that the next government will try to remove it. That is pure speculation.


Doesn't it all depend on how they interpret "undocumented foreigners " - who do you think that encompasses?


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## Love Karma

snikpoh said:


> Doesn't it all depend on how they interpret "undocumented foreigners " - who do you think that encompasses?


No idea do you? And totally irrelevant to the context of my post. I was just correcting a poster that said the law had not passed through Congress which is incorrect. Or are you disputing this? In your opinion Has it passed through Congress?


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## JulyB

I think you are arguing semantics here. The point is, the article says that the law will not apply across the board because it hasn’t been put into practice - and THAT has to pass Congress. Who is arguing that the law itself hasn’t passed Congress? Of course it has.

And as for what the next government does... the point is that they can do whatever they want, but this legislature period only runs for 2 more weeks and there isn’t time to get the development plan through. So when I say it won’t, it is because it won’t. It’s up to the next administration to decide what happens, whatever combination of parties that happens to be.

I’m going to quote this again from the article: “fue aprobado por el Consejo de Ministros el 27 de julio del año pasado, no se ha desarrollado porque el Gobierno decidió transformarlo en proyecto de ley, cuyo trámite no ha comenzado en el Congreso.”

And if you want more information than that, why don’t you look it up yourself rather than expecting us to do the work for you. It’s no skin off my nose personally whether it happens or not as it won’t make much difference to me (although obviously I support the law and love universal healthcare). But you are the one who is upset about this.


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## Love Karma

JulyB;14804170. Who is arguing that the law itself hasn’t passed Congress? Of course it has.
.[/QUOTE said:


> Simple answer YOU......and here is your quote
> _
> 
> to me it looks like although the law was agreed, the rollout of the law across the country has to* be agreed by Congress, so it won’t be happeni*ng._


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## Love Karma

JulyB said:


> I think you are arguing semantics here. The point is, the article says that the law will not apply across the board because it hasn’t been put into practice - and THAT has to pass Congress. *Who is arguing that the law itself hasn’t passed Congress? Of course it has.*
> 
> 
> Simple answer YOU......and here is your quote
> _to me it looks like although the law was agreed, the rollout of the law across the country has to* be agreed by Congress, so it won’t be happeni*ng._


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## JulyB

Read what I said again. You seem to be purposefully misunderstanding what I have said there, and I have no idea why you are doing what you are doing here, except to assume that you are doing it on purpose. Read the article I quoted. If you can’t read it, that’s not my fault. I have never said anything but what has been stated in the article, but you seem to want to pick a fight, and I don’t have time for that.

What you are saying that I said is the opposite of what I said.

I quit this forum a while ago because of all the pointless fighting, but decided to come back the other day as it seemed to have improved recently, and I had some important information that I thought would be helpful to share. Oh well. What a waste of time that was.


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## Alcalaina

JulyB said:


> I quit this forum a while ago because of all the pointless fighting, but decided to come back the other day as it seemed to have improved recently, and I had some important information that I thought would be helpful to share. Oh well. What a waste of time that was.


Please stick around! What you posted WAS useful, and I suspect the intricacies of how Spanish government decrees are rolled out to autonomous regions is beyond the expertise of most of us.


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## Isobella

snikpoh said:


> Doesn't it all depend on how they interpret "undocumented foreigners " - who do you think that encompasses?


True. Expats aren't undocumented are they, Only refugees, genuine or not are undocumented,


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## JulyB

To be honest, I am far from an expert myself. I only know what I read, and I totally agree it is complicated. And a foreign system will always seem more complex. A lot of Spanish people are a bit vague on how it all works, and they learn it in school.

*sigh* You know, I get that everyone’s upset here, but I don’t need extra stress. But thanks for saying that, I may still pop in from time to time. I just felt pretty grim since I have been back here for less than a day and already strange accusations seemed to be flying.


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## Megsmum

JulyB said:


> Read what I said again. You seem to be purposefully misunderstanding what I have said there, and I have no idea why you are doing what you are doing here, except to assume that you are doing it on purpose. Read the article I quoted. If you can’t read it, that’s not my fault. I have never said anything but what has been stated in the article, but you seem to want to pick a fight, and I don’t have time for that.
> 
> What you are saying that I said is the opposite of what I said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I quit this forum a while ago because of all the pointless fighting, but decided to come back the other day as it seemed to have improved recently, and I had some important information that I thought would be helpful to share. Oh well. What a waste of time that was.
Click to expand...


I feel your pain. Dare question some and it’ll turn into a pissing contest . I comment now and again, your post was Interesting and informative far better than some of the speculation we’ve had posted as the truth.

Hope your back soon and hope all is well with you and yours

Edited to say. Our lawyer, who is no expert but more of an expert than done on here, also agrees with you, this will not be rolled out after all the convenio especial has not been rolled out across Spain


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## Elyles

Michael Kelly said:


> There is universal free health care in Catalyuna, including those without legal residence.




Great but in Aragon we continue to pay for the Convenio Especial


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## Elyles

*Free healthcare*



Love Karma said:


> Irrelevant as my response was to the poster who said it had NOT passed through Congress when it undeniably has, nothing at all to do with it rolling out across regions. And to your follow up post again regarding it having to pass through Congress " _the rollout of the law across the country has to be agreed by Congress, so it won’t be happening."_
> 
> Also could you please supply a link to some factual evidence of your statement " but it has not been rolled out everywhere and *now it will not be*" and what do you base the statement that the next government will try to remove it. That is pure speculation.




It has only been defined in Aragon as for undocumented immigrants. But this is just like the Spanish bureaucracy to leave it up to the autonomous communities to develop entry plans into the healthcare system. 


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## Love Karma

Elyles said:


> It has only been defined in Aragon as for immigrants
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Never posted anything to the contrary.


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## Pesky Wesky

JulyB said:


> Read what I said again. You seem to be purposefully misunderstanding what I have said there, and I have no idea why you are doing what you are doing here, except to assume that you are doing it on purpose. Read the article I quoted. If you can’t read it, that’s not my fault. I have never said anything but what has been stated in the article, but you seem to want to pick a fight, and I don’t have time for that.
> 
> What you are saying that I said is the opposite of what I said.
> 
> I quit this forum a while ago because of all the pointless fighting, but decided to come back the other day as it seemed to have improved recently, and I had some important information that I thought would be helpful to share. Oh well. What a waste of time that was.


 Some regular posters on here, myself included post less than we did in the past. Part of the reason for me has been that even though I am not personally involved I get heartily fed up of posters who constantly pick arguments with each other, who get caught up in the smallness of life, who are eager to point out the "wrong" but have little "right" to contribute. However, I still think there are many worthwhile posters, members who are knowledgeable and willing to share information, others who are interested in learning and many people who are very kindhearted, decent people. 

I think it's worth sticking around. I rarely get involved with those who imho have little to contribute, just as I wouldn't in the wider world. It's how we move through life and society and you can do it on the forum too, so hope you'll continue to post now and again.


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## Pesky Wesky

Elyles said:


> It has only been defined in Aragon as for undocumented immigrants. But this is just like the Spanish bureaucracy to leave it up to the autonomous communities to develop entry plans into the healthcare system.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I don't think it's Spanish bureaucracy; I think it's Spanish political strategy - pass a law so this government can say we've done this that or the other, but don't actually bring it to fruition so we don't need to spend the resources, put in the infrastructure and time into actually making it a reality


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## kaipa

You shouldn't feel you need to be silenced because of someone else feels more strongly about something. Personally I feel that there is a lot of misunderstandings when it comes to how the system and laws work in practice add to the fact that lots of official information gets filtered through non Spanish speaking minds who tend to interpret things in the manner they are accustomed to in their own countries doesn't help.
You are also right when you say that with elections coming up many formal procedures and ratification won't happen until after the summer when we could have a different government


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## Alcalaina

Elyles said:


> But this is just like the Spanish bureaucracy to leave it up to the autonomous communities to develop entry plans into the healthcare system.


Why do you think they are called *autonomous *communities?


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## Elyles

Alcalaina said:


> Why do you think they are called *autonomous *communities?




True but the government had no restrictions on what and when the community would write something for system admission. Poor structure, to say the least.


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## Michael Kelly

Elyles said:


> True but the government had no restrictions on what and when the community would write something for system admission. Poor structure, to say the least.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


The decentralized system in Spain is good in theory but in practice many issues do not work well.


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## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> Some regular posters on here, myself included post less than we did in the past. Part of the reason for me has been that even though I am not personally involved I get heartily fed up of posters who constantly pick arguments with each other, who get caught up in the smallness of life, who are eager to point out the "wrong" but have little "right" to contribute. However, I still think there are many worthwhile posters, members who are knowledgeable and willing to share information, others who are interested in learning and many people who are very kindhearted, decent people.
> 
> I think it's worth sticking around. I rarely get involved with those who imho have little to contribute, just as I wouldn't in the wider world. It's how we move through life and society and you can do it on the forum too, so hope you'll continue to post now and again.





Megsmum said:


> I feel your pain. Dare question some and it’ll turn into a pissing contest . I comment now and again, your post was Interesting and informative far better than some of the speculation we’ve had posted as the truth.
> 
> Hope your back soon and hope all is well with you and yours
> 
> Edited to say. Our lawyer, who is no expert but more of an expert than done on here, also agrees with you, this will not be rolled out after all the convenio especial has not been rolled out across Spain





Alcalaina said:


> Please stick around! What you posted WAS useful, and I suspect the intricacies of how Spanish government decrees are rolled out to autonomous regions is beyond the expertise of most of us.












There will always be disagreements on forums & different interpretations of rules - not just among members, but by different regions, which really doesn't help. That shouldn't stop anyone posting.

As long as the posts fall within forum rules that's fine - which mostly in this context means as long as there are no insults directed at other members.

By all means report posts which you feel are against the rules. Moderators will review them & decide what action to take if any.


Just to be clear - this is nothing to do with the veracity or otherwise of information posted.


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## andyviola

Michael Kelly said:


> There is universal free health care in Catalyuna, including those without legal residence.


Wow ...we moving to Calafell in early summer. How do we arrange care. Just turn up at a medical centre and ummm...register?


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## mrypg9

I prefer to discuss the merits or otherwise of decisions/decrees/parliamentary votes etc. that have some proof of existence in the real world most of us live in rather than get involved in heated debate over what might be the case or is speculation in any form.

This forum is an excellent place for the exchange of views on all kinds of topics ranging from whether or not all British immigrants will be evacuated froom the beaches of the Costas by the Royal Navy in the event of a no-deal Brexit to the correct way to make a paella to the lkely outcome of negotiations relatimg to the status of British immgrants in post- Brexit Spain. The majority of posts are sensible and informative. Sometimes discussions get heated but that’s to be expected and imo sensitive souls have the option of going away and reading a book, watching tv, going to the pub, making love, whatever.
The real and ongoing problem as I and some others see it is troll infestation. One sad sick individual can disrupt, provoke conflict and even invade the private lives of some posters to the point where such conduct could be construed as stalking. Our Mods do their best and swiftly shut down any fake poster but it’s this that spoils the generally genial ambience that isn’t characteristic of some other expat forums.


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## Alcalaina

andyviola said:


> Wow ...we moving to Calafell in early summer. How do we arrange care. Just turn up at a medical centre and ummm...register?


No, you will have to apply for residency first and for that you will need private health insurance, unless one or both of you is in receipt of a UK state pension and can obtain S1 cover.

This is on the assumption that there an agreed transition period for Brexit. If UK leaves with no deal, goodness knows what will happen.


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## andyviola

Alcalaina said:


> No, you will have to apply for residency first and for that you will need private health insurance, unless one or both of you is in receipt of a UK state pension and can obtain S1 cover.
> 
> This is on the assumption that there an agreed transition period for Brexit. If UK leaves with no deal, goodness knows what will happen.


Thanks. Does the private health care need to have certain minimum cover to qualify as valid? Any clues what type of policy to get to satisfy the residency application?


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## Juan C

Andy. The health care required is FULL cover without any exemptions or copayments


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## andyviola

Juan C said:


> Andy. The health care required is FULL cover without any exemptions or copayments


Thanks, quite expensive one then? Well only for a year I guess.


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## Barriej

andyviola said:


> Thanks, quite expensive one then? Well only for a year I guess.


Not really.

We were quoted €190 for the two of us a month. While not covering existing conditions I don't think it is that bad.


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## baldilocks

From the ads on the right hand side:
https://deals.expatfinder.com/fast-...MI8b7I7_XR4AIVybB7Ch0t9QVcEAEYASAAEgIBcPD_BwE


----------



## andyviola

Barriej said:


> andyviola said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, quite expensive one then? Well only for a year I guess.
> 
> 
> 
> Not really.
> 
> We were quoted €190 for the two of us a month. While not covering existing conditions I don't think it is that bad.
Click to expand...




baldilocks said:


> From the ads on the right hand side:
> https://deals.expatfinder.com/fast-...MI8b7I7_XR4AIVybB7Ch0t9QVcEAEYASAAEgIBcPD_BwE


Thanks both . And almost always min contact a year? 
Tougher nuts than the UK arent they haha.


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## xabiaxica

*Andalucía re-introduces the convenio especial*


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## baldilocks

xabiaxica said:


> View attachment 90452


WE know why this is, don't we? The PP who now run Andalucía want to get rid of the "Free Health Care for All" so there has to be en alternative - the Convenio which people will have to pay for.


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## bikerboy123

If you are paying any type of tax to the Spanish government then the health care is hardly free is it.


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## xabiaxica

bikerboy123 said:


> If you are paying any type of tax to the Spanish government then the health care is hardly free is it.


Well no - any more than it is in the UK for example.

However - there are indeed many who do have free access to healthcare here without ever having paid national insurance. 

Paying tax doesn't give you the right to healthcare access in Spain, but paying 'national insurance' as we called it in the UK, does.


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## Juan C

Just for those interested

For every UK national living in Spain who has ´free´ health cover via an S1, the DWP pays around 4,700 euros p.a. For their dependants the amount paid is the same if they are 65 or over; less if they are under 65. It is paid as a set contribution no matter how little or how much use is made of the Medical Services. 

PS Please tell your Spanish friends, many of whom may believe the ´free´ health cover is paid for by the contributions made by Spanish workers.


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## disillusion20

Sorry if this is a repeat posting but I was flipping through this week's Sur in English and there was an article about Andalucia reviving the Convenion Especial, with a mention to this particular website for info:

Andalusia and the Convenio Especial: what you need to know | Healthcare in Spain

You can also check out the Junta's website (Spanish) for more info:
https://www.juntadeandalucia.es/ser...es-para-la-prestacion-de-asistencia-sanitaria


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## xabiaxica

Bump


----------

