# Renouncing US Citizenship timeline



## Cousin Jack

Hi everyone

I am resident in the UK and a dual UK/US national and taking everything into consideration I am seriously contemplating renouncing my US citizenship (I have no US assets, Social Security, etc and my family are very close to ILR here in the UK that I do jot see any issues).

Would I become a non US citizen on the date of my *Oath of Renunciation* at the Embassy/Consulate OR is it when I receive the* Certificate of Loss of Nationality* that I understand could take a year or more to receive.

At what stage of the process would I not be liable for future earnings in relation to taxes? In other words if the date of the oath of renunciation was accepted as the date I became a non citizen, would any income earned after this date be exempt from the IRS or would it continue until the end of the tax year (31st December).At what point can I stop filing 1040's, FBAR, FATCA etc?


What is the wait time between submitting a request to the Embassy and receiving an appointment to attend and renounce?

Thanks


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## Nononymous

As I understand it, you lose your US citizenship when you take the oath, and all income earned from that day forward would not be subject to US taxation.

Wait times vary from country to country, consulate to consulate. You do not need to renounce in your country of residence, so if time is of the essence a short hop to Copenhagen or wherever might be well worth the ticket. 

As I'm sure you're aware, you can also simply stop filing, before or after you renounce, and not bother worrying with any further tax or FBAR forms. You do not need to prove compliance to give up your US citizenship.

There is a process if you wish to "properly" exit the US tax system. I don't know the details but it involves a funny sort of return for the year you renounced, and the 8854 form. There's lots of information out there on how to do this.


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## Bevdeforges

I have a friend who recently (within the last year or two) renounced her US citizenship. Now, she is a German resident so had a couple "extra" tasks to do - because to take German nationality one has to first renounce and then provide proof of renunciation to the German authorities (the CLN, I believe - though they may accelerate that process for those seeking German nationality because she was literally "stateless" in the interim).

From what she has told me, you need the CLN to "prove" that you have renounced, but your "date of exit" is technically the date that you swear your oath of renunciation.

In her case, she hasn't filed US tax returns for some time, given that her income is below the limits and Germany is one of those countries where US SS and other pensions are taxed exclusively by your country of residence. So, she simply indicated on her application material that yes, she was up to date on her US tax filings (or whatever the wording is on that question) and that was that.

There is some other date involved - where your name appears in the Congressional Record or some other official document listing those who have renounced. That can take a few months to happen, but as far as I know the only significance of that is that it is the notification to the IRS that you're no longer a citizen. She has never filed any sort of exit return and has never heard any thing from the IRS. 

How long to get an appointment at the Consulate varies by how many folks are seeking to renounce at a given time - but the Frankfurt Consulate does seem to process folks through more or less en masse. But since you already have another passport, being without your US passport for a time shouldn't be a real inconvenience.


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## Cousin Jack

Helpful. Thanks to both of you.


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## Pacifica

Hi Cousin Jack,

Sorry, I’m rambly/reptitious (I’m supposed to be working 😊 )

CLN: Will have date of issuance of CLN; and date you swore the renunciation, which is the effective date of your citizenship termination. 

Between renunciation and issuance of CLN: It’s a bit of a grey zone in between – intellectually very interesting -- but for practical purposes, it’s not a big deal. Renunciations are almost never rejected. I’ve read of a few in the jurisprudence and such, but those cases were *weird,* not everyday people. 

At your appointment, you can ask the embassy for a letter stating that you have sworn the renunciation oath. I know London has done this before.

Policies and procedures change. So, if you have questions about your “interim period,” before receipt of CLN, it’s good to ask them at your renunciation meeting. I’m happy to say that London has consistently had an excellent reputation for handling renunciations over the past 8 years (since I started tracking this stuff). For info such as entering the US in the interim period, I’d be confident that London knows what they’re talking about.

But even with London, peer info/advice is still important, because US tax/citizenship is so strange and complicated; and DoS and IRS are more opaque than the governments most of us on these forums have ever dealt with. And peers are walking-the-walk (or have successfully walked it). Peers are frequently more up-to-date on expatriation policy/procedures than some consulates embassies. 

Even with London, it's good to keep an eye out to see if peers have news of some new developments, so you'll know ahead of time. But you don't need to do "defensive research," if you're using London. They're knowldgeable and they don't have an "attitude problem."

For banking, btw, I’ve noticed that if proof of non-citizenship is required before the CLN, banks will often accept seeing receipt of payment of the renunciation fee as proof in the interim. 

Tax: Once the CLN is issued, IRS considers you stopped being a US citizen as of your renunciation date. I went into some detail about the DoS/IRS roles in “Interactions between Dept of State and IRS regarding Renunciation/Relinquishment.” http://*****************.ca/renunci...nt-of-state-and-the-internal-revenue-service/

General comments:

Think of US citizenship law as a contract between 2 parties. You were born into this contract, no choice. The specific “contract” we’re talking about here is the Immigration and Nationality Act. Like many business contracts, it has an “out-clause” That’s s. 349(a)(5), which covers renunciation. The contract ends when you swear the oath of renunciation. The CLN doesn't end the contract. You did. But I might not want to take your word for it. The CLN is evidence that the other party agrees that your action has terminated the contract between the two of you. (There are ways to prove loss of citizenship without a CLN in certain circumstances, too detailed for this comment, but in all cases CLN is the best proof (and once you get it, the simplest, being one clear and official document).

London has an excellent reputation for handling renunciations. I’d have confidence in them. But it’s still a very good idea to check this site as you get closer to renunciation.

Check the Isaac Brock Society also. We’re a group that focuses on US tax and citizenship issues of people overseas. Two suggestions: Look in the Brock Sidebar for “Consulate Report Directory,” about 275 pages of people reports of their renunciations, organized by consulate location. Also in the Sidebar, “How to Renounce/Relinquish” which has links to posts on specific aspects of renunciation. 

PS: I'm having a problem with the link to the Brock site, but the site is up and running.


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## Cousin Jack

Pacifica said:


> Hi Cousin Jack,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, I’m rambly/reptitious (I’m supposed to be working 😊 )
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for taking the time to reply
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CLN: Will have date of issuance of CLN; and date you swore the renunciation, which is the effective date of your citizenship termination.
> Between renunciation and issuance of CLN: It’s a bit of a grey zone in between – intellectually very interesting -- but for practical purposes, it’s not a big deal. Renunciations are almost never rejected. I’ve read of a few in the jurisprudence and such, but those cases were *weird,* not everyday people.
> At your appointment, you can ask the embassy for a letter stating that you have sworn the renunciation oath. I know London has done this before.
> Policies and procedures change. So, if you have questions about your “interim period,” before receipt of CLN, it’s good to ask them at your renunciation meeting.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *IF* renunciation is accepted as the date of being a non US citizen, would the tax reporting year be split?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Think of US citizenship law as a contract between 2 parties. You were born into this contract, no choice. The specific “contract” we’re talking about here is the Immigration and Nationality Act. Like many business contracts, it has an “out-clause” That’s section. 349(a)(5), which covers renunciation of citizenship.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I am a naturized US citizen, although I don't think this makes any difference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Check the Isaac Brock Society
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I will, thanks.
Click to expand...


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## Cousin Jack

Just read IRS form 8854 and that answers a lot of my questions. Thanks


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## Nononymous

Bevdeforges said:


> So, she simply indicated on her application material that yes, she was up to date on her US tax filings (or whatever the wording is on that question) and that was that.


Interesting. Consular officials are not supposed to ask any questions about tax compliance, either verbally or in writing. Could you enquire a little deeper as to what exactly the form and question might be, or possibly she mis-remembered.


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## Bevdeforges

Nononymous said:


> Interesting. Consular officials are not supposed to ask any questions about tax compliance, either verbally or in writing. Could you enquire a little deeper as to what exactly the form and question might be, or possibly she mis-remembered.


If anything, it's a fairly innocuous question on one of the forms she had to fill out. Or, she may have been fretting about her tax status since she hadn't been filing, and I told her that, in response to any question (on a form or otherwise) she could truthfully answer that she was in compliance.


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## Pacifica

Hi Cousin Jack,

Good you’ve got some answers from the 8854. Some of the people here are very solid on tax (not me) and they'll will be helpful with additional information you might (probably will) require.

Re being a naturalised citizen. Good point. You’re right -- no difference. Just that you entered into “the contract” by conscious decision. I want to stress I haven’t heard of any differences, but just in case, take a look at the Dept of State Foreign Affairs Manual for Renunciation of US Citizenship Abroad. Fortunately DoS, unlike IRS, writes in plain English.

Edit: The link to the DoS Manual isn't working for me. You can google "Renunciation 7 FAM 1260"


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## Cousin Jack

Pacifica said:


> Hi Cousin Jack,
> 
> Good you’ve got some answers from the 8854. Some of the people here are very solid on tax (not me) and they'll will be helpful with additional information you might (probably will) require.
> 
> Re being a naturalised citizen. Good point. You’re right -- no difference. Just that you entered into “the contract” by conscious decision. I want to stress I haven’t heard of any differences, but just in case, take a look at the Dept of State Foreign Affairs Manual for Renunciation of US Citizenship Abroad. Fortunately DoS, unlike IRS, writes in plain English.
> 
> Edit: The link to the DoS Manual isn't working for me. You can google "Renunciation 7 FAM 1260"



Got it, thanks. 
Just browsing the Issac Brock Society.


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## Nononymous

Bevdeforges said:


> If anything, it's a fairly innocuous question on one of the forms she had to fill out. Or, she may have been fretting about her tax status since she hadn't been filing, and I told her that, in response to any question (on a form or otherwise) she could truthfully answer that she was in compliance.


My hunch is that she was fretting about tax status - needlessly - and imagines being asked the question.

But there is also an informational form (the number of which I forget, but someone at Brock will know it) that the State Department uses to determine whether a person has relinquished in the past, and one of the markers of continued ties to the US, along with renewing a passport or voting, is having filed taxes. Apparently that form is sometimes given to people who are renouncing, though it should not be: the oath of renunciation is their relinquishing act, past ties to the US are not relevant. Inevitably the appearance of this form causes people to believe that their tax status will be checked prior to renunciation - it will not be - or that one must be compliant in order to renounce. 

Stating it again in loud shouty type for anyone new to the situation who comes across this post:

TAX COMPLIANCE IS NOT REQUIRED FOR RENUNCIATION. CONSULAR OFFICIALS SHOULD NOT ASK IF YOU HAVE BEEN FILING US TAXES.


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## Bevdeforges

Just a note here - though I'm sure the situation can change from one consulate to the next - my friend said that the folks she dealt with at the Frankfurt consulate were really nice, not at all intrusive about "why" she was renouncing, and actually seemed to her to be quite sympathetic. (OK, given that you have to have renounced before you can take German nationality may help here.)

But in other cases I have heard of, it appears that the consular staff (State Department employees) are generally quite helpful - and may not be all that interested in "aiding and abetting" the IRS.


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## Nononymous

Yes, reports of consular staff not being nice are extremely rare.

I was just curious about the claim that your friend had been asked about tax compliance, either verbally or in writing.


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