# Still dreaming...!



## chica escocesa (Jul 23, 2012)

Hi there 

A few of you may remember me posting a couple of years back. I was thinking of moving to Estepona and teaching English or setting up a language school. 2 years on we now have a 20 month old girl but circumstances have changed a bit. We are still dreaming of making the move one day, ideally just before or around the time our wee girl starts school. 
A bit about us - I am still a French/Spanish/Italian teacher. DH is still running family businesses but they have taken a big battering, meaning he is working v hard, long unsociable hours which is taking it's toll on our family life. He also no longer makes as much money from this but we still have a (relatively) comfy life, nice house, cars etc. The good news is that they have been in business a long time so there is lots of equity and we hope to start selling them one by one (will probably take 2-3 years). This will give is relief, freedom and a financial cushion. 
We have revised 'the plan' and this is it - build a property portfolio at home (we already own 4 which we rent out) a mixture of full repayment and interest only mortgages. If we buy the right properties in the right areas at the right price, this should provide us with an income of around 3k net per month. Once this is set up I hope to get a 2 year career break from work which leaves my options open. We will then rent our own house out and move across. I am hoping to work in a Language Academy or an International school but where we move to will depend on me finding some work. We would prefer somewhere southern and coastal to give our daughter a nice lifestyle. 
Questions - I know about the dire economic straits in Spain, is there demand for English teachers any more? I know Madrid used to be the 'hub' for English teaching but I've been and couldn't live there.
What do you do about transferring income from UK to Spain? Is it expensive and what happens about tax? 
Schooling - international or local? Would prefer to integrate as much as poss and use a local school but will our daughter have better opportunities going to an international school? If so what are fees for this? 
Cost of living - we would hope to have 3-4k per month in tot to live off. We probably need a 3 bed apt/house (rented) in a good area. We will want a car probably and like to be able to go out once-twice a week for tapas and wine! We are not particularly extravagant at home. Is this a realistic income? 
Any input is welcome especially from those who have experience teaching over there. I will have more than 10 years experience by the time we move and I plan to do CELTA either here or in Spain.


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## Expatliving (Oct 21, 2013)

Hi

On a slightly different tangent, have you taken into account the In/Out EU vote deadline (2017) in the UK if the Tories win, or are in control of government next May?

This could have a huge impact on many European 'Brit' expats? In many respects even though you maybe just over a thousand miles away, you might as well (taxation/freedom of movement etc) be on the other side of the planet?

Think Gibraltar and the hassle the locals have there! 

Re.
G


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## chica escocesa (Jul 23, 2012)

I am hoping it doesn't happen! Huge step back. I am also thinking if it does happen we are likely to have another independence referendum up here and it will probably swing towards Yes, then hopefully Scotland will remain in ir become part of the EU. Ifs and buts!


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## chica escocesa (Jul 23, 2012)

Also to add in Scotland I don't hear anyone talking about the EU. I think this is very much an 'English' issue. If England keeps going the way it is now I see a YES outcome in another independence referendum up here in the next 10-15 years. Do you know anything about Tories in Scotland?


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

chica escocesa said:


> We have revised 'the plan' and this is it - build a property portfolio at home (we already own 4 which we rent out) a mixture of full repayment and interest only mortgages. If we buy the right properties in the right areas at the right price, this should provide us with an income of around 3k net per month.


I presume you mean net of UK tax?

However, once you are living in Spain you will be tax resident there and will need to declare all your worldwide income from whatever source on your Spanish tax return.

You will also need to make a separate declaration listing all your worldwide assets (Modelo 720) as your investment properties will mean you have well over the €50,000 in one asset class level which obliges you to make such a declaration.

Perhaps you are already aware that the UK Government has a consultation document out at the moment regarding a proposal to withdraw the UK personal allowance from those living overseas, which would apply to people in receipt of rental income from the UK.

I think it would be a good idea for you to consult a tax professional with expert knowledge of the Spanish tax regime as your net income might be different from the amount you envisage.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

chica escocesa said:


> Questions - I know about the dire economic straits in Spain, is there demand for English teachers any more? I know Madrid used to be the 'hub' for English teaching but I've been and couldn't live there.
> What do you do about transferring income from UK to Spain? Is it expensive and what happens about tax?
> Schooling - international or local? Would prefer to integrate as much as poss and use a local school but will our daughter have better opportunities going to an international school? If so what are fees for this?
> Any input is welcome especially from those who have experience teaching over there. I will have more than 10 years experience by the time we move and I plan to do CELTA either here or in Spain.


There is still a demand for English teachers atm, but due the the economic problems we are suffering, which are likely to continue for some years (many experts even saying that Spain will just not return to its previous highs of the '80's and 90's) the market and the prices have shifted. There's a huge market now for children preparing the Cambridge exams, but how long that market will last I don't know 10 - 15 years? Maybe more? Teachers in State schools will need or will be awarded extra credits for a B2/ C1 so right now there's a market there, but again I would presume it's limited.
Children's classes are normally charged at a really low rate. In recent years as people have become more aware of the importance of English and the level has slowly (very slowly) gone up there has been a rise in private tuition and also more activity based learning; cooking in English, arts and crafts in English and also English for very young children based around songs and games. Kids & Us is an example and now has a massive presence in Spain.
But I think the market is very dynamic and the teacher/ organisation has to be really flexible. One year they all want classes every day. The next 4 days a week, Fridays free, the next weekend intensives, the next only speaking and so it goes on.
As to where? Well, it seems that the south of Spain might be saturated, you'd have to do some careful research. Madrid of course is still an important centre for language teaching, both English and Spanish, but you don't have to live in Madrid. There are plenty of medium sized towns to little villages with in travelling distance, so maybe you should look at that, or anywhere north of the capital.
However, personally I wouldn't come to Spain and set up an academy. I would work here through an academy or maybe freelance to find out how things work here first. Apart from that, setting up an academy can be a soul destroying, long, strung out experience so it might not be wise to jump straight in to that


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## chica escocesa (Jul 23, 2012)

Many thanks for all input. Yes, I've kind of gone off the idea if setting up the academy. I've been teaching part time and helping hubby run the business since we had the wee one and think I would just like a 'job' rather than a business! Having looked into it a little would I be right in saying that most language schools pay Sept-June? Then your summer holidays are unpaid? Would I be at a disadvantage having only


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## chica escocesa (Jul 23, 2012)

Sorry pressed something! Am I at a disadvantage having taught mostly MFL in the UK rather than TEFL? I did work as an English language assistant/English teacher for my year abroad at university. 

Income-wise yes I meant net of UK tax, expenses and money to reinvest back into the properties. I am envisaging we will set up a LTD company or partnership in the UK and pay relevant UK tax that way. We would need to see closer to the time what the most efficient way of doing this is. At the moment our businesses operate as separate ltd companies with income derived from a mixture of salary and dividends.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

We were concerned that the U.K. may leave the E.U., and/or, that because of the economic situation, Spain along with other countries may be required to leave. I am aware that the latter is unlikely. 

Anyway it is a worry and because of this last year we both applied for Spanish nationality and are awaiting the outcome.


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## chica escocesa (Jul 23, 2012)

It is a grim thought indeed. I am thinking we may see a UKIP/Cons coalition next election perish the thought. This option just does not represent the Scottish people at all. I do think leaving the EU is unlikely but it is a possibility. Labour are not strong enough opposition - in a way they made their own bed by letting immigration go unchecked for years and now they are paying the price. Anyway, I wouldn't want to relinquish my UK/Scottish citizenship - my family are all here.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

chica escocesa said:


> It is a grim thought indeed. I am thinking we may see a UKIP/Cons coalition next election perish the thought. This option just does not represent the Scottish people at all. I do think leaving the EU is unlikely but it is a possibility. Labour are not strong enough opposition - in a way they made their own bed by letting immigration go unchecked for years and now they are paying the price. Anyway, I wouldn't want to relinquish my UK/Scottish citizenship - my family are all here.


The U.K. nationals who apply for Spanish Nationality, in the eyes of Spain have to renounce their U.K. nationality, however the U.K. does not recognise this and unless you formally renounce your citizenship in London, in the eyes of the U.K. you are of dual nationality. A friend who resides here has both U.K. and Spanish passports. We also have family in the U.K. but having lived here for many years, our ties with the country are few, our home is here on the small Canary Island of El Hierro.


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## chica escocesa (Jul 23, 2012)

Well that is not so bad I suppose. I understand in your position I would probably do the same thing. I just can't imagine our daughter being 'Spanish' when we and her grandparents are all Scottish!


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

3-4 k a month enough to live on? 
Yes, with more than half of it to spare!
It's an amount most can only dream of!


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## chica escocesa (Jul 23, 2012)

I know it sounds a lot but we have more than that in the UK but always seem to find 'holes' for it! Life is very very expensive here....and we don't even have a ridiculous mortgage like a lot of people!


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

I think you'll find that some things in Spain are also expensive eg electricity.
In fact there's not a lot of difference in prices between Spain and UK now.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

In the very unlikely event that the UK will leave the EU I doubt very much that it will adversely effect UK immigrants living here or elsewhere in the EU. People bought property in Spain and lived here long before Spain joined the EU. If the issue is given thought, the complications for the UK and the countries of immigrant settlement will be apparent. It's equally unlikely that there will be another referendum in Scotland within this generation and if this one hadn't been soundly defeated the EU would not have granted membership to Scotland. Spain would have used the veto. My partner and all her family are Scottish and she is a firm 'Better Together supporter.

As for language teaching or posts in schools in the Estepona area....I honestly don't think there is much opportunity for work now or in the foreseeable future. You may as PW says be better advised to look elsewhere, in the bigger towns or cities. I worked as a translator/interpreter and MFL teacher and am English...but I have been asked to teach German! Many Spaniards are heading to Germany for work.

Money to live on...extranjero will tell you you can live on a loaf, a cup of water and twopence  ...but if you have had a good standard of living in the UK you will need a good income in Spain. For a start, renting a house with pool in this area can set you back 1500 -2000 euros a month. Then there's utilities on top of that. Our last water bill was almost 200 euros a month, electricity is around 150 euros a month. Then there's petrol/diesel, insurances...all the usual stuff you'll know only too well!

We're now retired and like you had properties and businesses in the UK, plus I had a professional job with good salary. We had no intention of dropping our standard of living in retirement and we haven't, although we've replaced some expenses by others. But you are young and have children so you will need a good income to keep up the standard you enjoy now in the UK. 

The everyday cost of living will depend a lot on your location and I'm guessing that will depend on job availability. The best advice is to have lots of holidays in different parts of Spain, contact language schools while you're there, get a feel for things.

Don't worry too much about whether the UK will be in or out of the EU. By the time you are ready to move that question will have been settled one way or the other. Immigrants with skills will still be needed, whatever.


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## chica escocesa (Jul 23, 2012)

Well that's what I think...I will deal with the in/out scenario if and when....I will not be preached to by someone who doesn't live in Scotland about the referendum etc. I was a YES voter and I wish we had done it. I think the UK leaving the EU makes it more likely we would have a referendum and more likely to become independent. I am allowed to think and say that! Of course, others are entitled to their opinion but I'm not sure ex-pats in Spain are best placed to understand what is happening here! Not sure if you are aware but the SNP has now become the 3rd biggest political party in the UK by membership since the referendum. Bigger than Lib Dem, UKIP etc. That said my main gripe is the Westminster elite. So few 'real' people there, I have never felt so far removed from those who lead 'our' country. For many YES voters it is not about nationalism and Braveheart, more about steering our own ship and making our society fairer. Why do you say Spain would veto Scotland entering? 

However, that is not the purpose of this forum! I am not stuck on Estepona as an area, I would prefer a coastal area, Malaga, Cadiz, Valencia and others are options. 
I agree with you about standard of living and costs....which is why we want to 'protect' our income as much as possible. Your costs sound similar to ours...I don't need a house with a pool...a 3 bed apartment in a nice area would do. We figure we will spend much more time outside than we do at home anyway. Currently we are Â£200 per month gas and electric Â£90-130 per week for food and household, Â£200 per month council tax (includes water) and then we have a car each etc etc. I think we are willing to compromise a bit on size of accommodation and also just have one car if we move.


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

Live on a loaf, cup of water and twopence? Not me! Wasn't that Baldilocks?
Any one who can't live like a king, and save a good bit on 3-4 k needs help.!hat's in an average 3 bed villa with pool, decent food, running car,social life , holidays etc.
Those rent and utility bills are way over the top!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

extranjero said:


> Live on a loaf, cup of water and twopence? Not me! Wasn't that Baldilocks?
> Any one who can't live like a king, and save a good bit on 3-4 k needs help.!hat's in an average 3 bed villa with pool, decent food, running car,social life , holidays etc.
> Those rent and utility bills are way over the top!


When we moved into this house six years ago the rent was 2300 euros. That was the norm for this area. We've bargained it down since we've been here but it's still four figures and tbh it's nothing special. If we could pick up the house and shift in north or inland the rent would be much less, I know. But we like it here.
The utility bills include the costs of irrigating a large albeit somewhat moth eaten garden and running a pool. Again, that's the norm for a property with largeish gardens round here. We have a gardener as I'm past climbing up trees, pruning and driving the mower over the lawn. I prefer to lie back and watch someone else do it.

You forget that there are huge differences in prices and costs here depending on location, just as in the UK or anywhere. A house in Mayfair won't cost the same as one in Macclesfield, will it...
Many things are more expensive here than in other parts of Spain. We accept that because our family has property here and more importantly we like it here.
You can't generalise on what things, houses etc.cost by comparing to your area and not everyone who comes to Spain is watching every cent or needs to save. 
Young people with a good life in the UK will expect the same or better in Spain.
Remember too that we are SKINs.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

chica escocesa said:


> Well that's what I think...I will deal with the in/out scenario if and when....I will not be preached to by someone who doesn't live in Scotland about the referendum etc. I was a YES voter and I wish we had done it. I think the UK leaving the EU makes it more likely we would have a referendum and more likely to become independent. I am allowed to think and say that! Of course, others are entitled to their opinion but I'm not sure ex-pats in Spain are best placed to understand what is happening here! Not sure if you are aware but the SNP has now become the 3rd biggest political party in the UK by membership since the referendum. Bigger than Lib Dem, UKIP etc. That said my main gripe is the Westminster elite. So few 'real' people there, I have never felt so far removed from those who lead 'our' country. For many YES voters it is not about nationalism and Braveheart, more about steering our own ship and making our society fairer. Why do you say Spain would veto Scotland entering?
> 
> However, that is not the purpose of this forum! I am not stuck on Estepona as an area, I would prefer a coastal area, Malaga, Cadiz, Valencia and others are options.
> I agree with you about standard of living and costs....which is why we want to 'protect' our income as much as possible. Your costs sound similar to ours...I don't need a house with a pool...a 3 bed apartment in a nice area would do. We figure we will spend much more time outside than we do at home anyway. Currently we are Â£200 per month gas and electric Â£90-130 per week for food and household, Â£200 per month council tax (includes water) and then we have a car each etc etc. I think we are willing to compromise a bit on size of accommodation and also just have one car if we move.


Three preliminary points: to answer your question, Spain would veto Scotland's bid for EU membership because of the vexed issue of Catalonian independence and for access to membership unanimity is required; the Yes campaign lost the vote; as a British citizen and one formerly very active in politics I too have a right to an opinion on the topic. I do know exactly what's going on in the UK and I agree with you 100% about the Westminster elite. The English have to put up with them too and not everyone voted for them either

You say now you don't want a pool...you may change your mind if you experience a summer like the one we've just had, with temperatures in the top 30Cs for weeks and weeks. You probably know that most urbs have community pools which saves the trouble and cost of maintenance but I prefer having our own as I don't want to upset people by appearing in my bikini in public...

The good thing about the drop in property prices is that it's a buyers' and renters' market and will be for a few years yet. This means in practice that you can look at properties to rent beyond what you wish to pay and bargain. Extranjero is right, electricity in particular is more expensive here than in the UK. It does get quite cold in winter so you have to think of heating and Spanish houses are not built for cold weather. Then in summer you might need aircon..
Fuel is about the same here, give or take a few cents as in the UK. 

It was our intention to stay in Spain for a few years then retire to my partner's native Glasgow to rent an apartment in the Merchant City...but I went to a Conference there in April a couple of year's ago and it was brass monkey's...I love Glasgow but had enough of the cold after three years in Prague.
So Spain is now home.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Best to take advice on your tax situation. On average you will pay more tax on three to four thousand pm. Than you would in the UK. One of the reasons we decided to come and go.


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## chica escocesa (Jul 23, 2012)

Ok we will do that closer to the time. Is it likely we would have to pay 'double' tax - ie here and in Spain?


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

chica escocesa said:


> Ok we will do that closer to the time. Is it likely we would have to pay 'double' tax - ie here and in Spain?


I pay U.K. tax on a government pension, I pay Spanish tax on my OAP, premium bond winnings, and gains on my investments. 183 days and you have to make a Spanish tax declaration, you will probably only pay tax on any earnings that have not been taxed in the U.K.

Tax people really do make life complicated


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Hepa said:


> I 183 days and you have to make a Spanish tax declaration, you will probably only pay tax on any earnings that have not been taxed in the U.K.


In view of the lower personal allowances and different tax rates in Spain, there could well be additional tax to pay on income which has already been taxed in the UK.

Also, as I said earlier, depending on the outcome, the Government consultation on the withdrawal of UK personal allowances from expats could potentially affect rental income received from the UK.

The fact that the income is received from a limited company registered in the UK will not, so far as I am aware, make any difference to the fact that it still has to be declared in Spain and any tax due over and above what may have already been paid in the UK will need to be paid here. And the OP's ownership\interest in any UK limited companies will also have to be declared separately as overseas assets on the Modelo 720.


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## chica escocesa (Jul 23, 2012)

Thanks for that info Lynn I will check it all out once we have exact figures. Will my DH and DD also have to 'pay in' to get healthcare? I have seen some English teaching jobs where healthcare payment etc is included but obviously just for me. Saw one in Jaen (not the ideal coastal location but still) where healthcare etc was included and salary was 1300 net a month for 25 hours. Sounded not too bad if we have decent money coming from UK also.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

chica escocesa said:


> Thanks for that info Lynn I will check it all out once we have exact figures. Will my DH and DD also have to 'pay in' to get healthcare? I have seen some English teaching jobs where healthcare payment etc is included but obviously just for me. Saw one in Jaen (not the ideal coastal location but still) where healthcare etc was included and salary was 1300 net a month for 25 hours. Sounded not too bad if we have decent money coming from UK also.


Jaen? I don't know what it's like to live there, but I do know you'd have to be prepared for very much colder winter temperatures than you would nearer the coast:-

Weather statistics for JaÃ©n, AndalucÃ­a (Spain) â€“ yr.no

In order for your family to register as residents, as you probably know you would have to provide proof of income into a Spanish bank account of approx €600 per month per person (different areas allegedly interpret the requirements differently) and\or a lump sum of €6000 in a Spanish bank account - none of which should present a problem for you. Also, proof of comprehensive health insurance cover is also required for all members of the family. If you have a work contract and are paying social security contributions that should cover you, but I would think private health insurance cover would be needed for the other members of the family. I am not 100% certain of that, however, maybe someone else who is working here (I'm not) could clarify. I have read that children in Spain are able to access state healthcare, but whether that still applies if you are new arrivals, I really couldn't say.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Another thing I should have mentioned is the typical academy timetable which is something that suits some, but not others. In an academy you will very likely have evening work 16:00/ 17:00 start finishing 21:00/22:00. There maybe a class or two in the morning (early morning company class or housewives/ unemployed 10:00 ish class) and there may be something at luch time, but the bulk is evening work.
Company work leaves you with a very chopped up timetable. which could look something like this 8:00 - 9:30 13:30 - 16:00 and 18:00 - 20:00. Obviously this is not set in stone, but these are the time bands when most classes are taught.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

chica escocesa said:


> Well that is not so bad I suppose. I understand in your position I would probably do the same thing. I just can't imagine our daughter being 'Spanish' when we and her grandparents are all Scottish!


Why would she be Spanish and you would be Scottish?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

chica escocesa said:


> Sorry pressed something! Am I at a disadvantage having taught mostly MFL in the UK rather than TEFL? I did work as an English language assistant/English teacher for my year abroad at university.
> 
> Income-wise yes I meant net of UK tax, expenses and money to reinvest back into the properties. I am envisaging we will set up a LTD company or partnership in the UK and pay relevant UK tax that way. We would need to see closer to the time what the most efficient way of doing this is. At the moment our businesses operate as separate ltd companies with income derived from a mixture of salary and dividends.


If you have a decent tefl qualification and some experience I think your other experience would be to your advantage.


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## chica escocesa (Jul 23, 2012)

I have noticed that. I don't mind evening work - I saw a job in MÃ¡laga which was Mon-Fri 16:30-20:30 which would suit fine. I would be there to get the wee one out to school and get her back, then DH would have her. We would then have the whole weekend together. All in, it's much more time than we have as a family now. At the moment we work opposites Mon - Thurs. DH works Tues and Weds 10am-1am. First we see of each other is Thurs night for a couple of hours, then he works Fri, and either Sat or Sunday. Can't get much worse. I don't fancy a 'split' timetable though - would much prefer either days or evenings!


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## chica escocesa (Jul 23, 2012)

About the Spanish/Scottish - we would all be classed as 'Spanish' but she would be much more Spanish than us being brought up there from a young age and having a Spanish passport. On the other hand you can change our passports but you will never erase our Scottishness!!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

chica escocesa said:


> However, that is not the purpose of this forum! I am not stuck on Estepona as an area, I would prefer a coastal area, Malaga, Cadiz, Valencia and others are options.


All of which are in the south and where unemployment is currently between 24% - 41% (Cádiz). Of course this may have all blown over by the time you get here, but somehow, I doubt it...
La economía recupera en un trimestre el 10% del empleo destruido durante la crisis - Noticias de Economía

Place cursor over map and you see the unemployment in that area for the 3rd trimestre of 2014

And this is placed under the title of Good News!!!!!!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

chica escocesa said:


> About the Spanish/Scottish - we would all be classed as 'Spanish' but she would be much more Spanish than us being brought up there from a young age and having a Spanish passport. On the other hand you can change our passports but you will never erase our Scottishness!!


Ahh, that's true
Ps click on reply with quote and then we know who you're replying to. It's confusing sometimes


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## chica escocesa (Jul 23, 2012)

Soz I'm on mobile, it's just 'reply'! God that's grim good news! I am seeing English teaching jobs though which is good for me I guess.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

chica escocesa said:


> Soz I'm on mobile, it's just 'reply'! God that's grim good news! I am seeing English teaching jobs though which is good for me I guess.


Didn't know that about the mobile, no problem.


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