# The "gagging law" is starting to bite



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Spanish woman fined for posting picture of police parked in disabled bay

All for our own safety, of course. Can't have people going round dissing the law.


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## Madliz (Feb 4, 2011)

Alcalaina said:


> Spanish woman fined for posting picture of police parked in disabled bay
> 
> All for our own safety, of course. Can't have people going round dissing the law.


It makes me sick, to be honest. The shortsightedness of Spanish lawmakers is unbelievable. Just make Spain a laughing stock around the world and deter people from visiting or living here. 

Who pays their wages at the end of the day?


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

I sincerely hope that, if the PP loses the General Election, this will be the first thing to go.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Madliz said:


> It makes me sick, to be honest. The shortsightedness of Spanish lawmakers is unbelievable. Just make Spain a laughing stock around the world and deter people from visiting or living here.
> 
> Who pays their wages at the end of the day?


I don't think 99% of potential tourists know anything about this law though.
They know little about the politics of the country.
More worrying is that from the posts we get on the forum, it seems a lot of people planning to live here also know little about the country beyond paellas, siestas and playas.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Lynn R said:


> I sincerely hope that, if the PP loses the General Election, this will be the first thing to go.


PSOE pledged to repeal.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I don't think 99% of potential tourists know anything about this law though.
> They know little about the politics of the country.
> More worrying is that from the posts we get on the forum, it seems a lot of people planning to live here also know little about the country beyond paellas, siestas and playas.


Most people go on holiday to relax and enjoy themselves before returning to another forty-plus weeks or so of what is more than likely a boring not very well paid job. They don't want to know about the politics of the country they're spending their two weeks in. Why should they? Behaving well and common sense are the main requisites. Most aren't likely to take photos of idle policemen. We did have to warn people visiting the former socialist states to be careful of what they took pictures of, though.
I've always tried to learn about the countries I've spent time in. I even learned Czech and Polish, not to any degree of fluency. I learned about the history and the culture because I'm interested in that kind of thing and, for me, it makes the experience more rewarding.
Other people don't give a toss about any of that, whether they go to work or retire in a foreign country.
A lot of British people know very little about their own country's history, literature and musical/artistic heritage and have a less than perfect grasp of their own language.
I read somewhere that immigrants to the UK who intend to reside permanently are now required to show knowledge of British history and culture and a reasonable fluency in the language. Fair enough, as I see it although some on the Left complained about 'cultural imperialism' or some such dreadful right-wing compulsion.
It's up to immigrants how and where they choose to live as long as they obey the laws and respect others, whatever their nationality.
I wouldn't want to see a hierarchy of qualities desirable in immigrants to Spain (burger eaters and Marks and Sparks shoppers way down the list) and I'm sure neither would most of us. If people want to restrict themselves by staying in their comfort zone, that's their loss. Or not.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

mrypg9 said:


> A lot of British people know very little about their own country's history, literature and musical/artistic heritage and have a less than perfect grasp of their own language.
> .


A great many of them have zero knowledge of, or interest in, the politics of their own country either, as I learned from canvassing. Lost count of the number of times I was told "I'm not interested in politics, it doesn't have anything to do with me". Depressing but true.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Lynn R said:


> A great many of them have zero knowledge of, or interest in, the politics of their own country either, as I learned from canvassing. Lost count of the number of times I was told "I'm not interested in politics, it doesn't have anything to do with me". Depressing but true.


Oh yes, I remember that only too well...At least the 'I leave that sort of thing to my husband' response has died out....
Of course people have a right not to be interested in politics, I grudgingly admit. Mind you, as my Czech friends used to tell me, under socialism they had no choice. Schools and workplaces were closed so people could line the streets waving flags in a spontaneous show of welcome for some visiting Comrade from the Bulgarian People's Socialist Republic or similar. Not voting in elections was frowned on and almost unheard of.
Not being interested in politics doesn't stop people moaning about tax increases on tobacco and alcohol and similar things but again, I reluctantly concede it's also their right.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Lynn R said:


> A great many of them have zero knowledge of, or interest in, the politics of their own country either, as I learned from canvassing. Lost count of the number of times I was told "I'm not interested in politics, it doesn't have anything to do with me". Depressing but true.


Have just voted online in the Labour Leadership contest....voted for the least unappealing of the candidates who weren't Jeremy Corbyn.
What a choice...two retreads and two zealots.
And all likely to make Labour unelectable in 2020.


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## emlyn (Oct 26, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> Have just voted online in the Labour Leadership contest....voted for the least unappealing of the candidates who weren't Jeremy Corbyn. What a choice...two retreads and two zealots. And all likely to make Labour unelectable in 2020.


Who are the two retreads?


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## Madliz (Feb 4, 2011)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I don't think 99% of potential tourists know anything about this law though.
> They know little about the politics of the country.
> More worrying is that from the posts we get on the forum, it seems a lot of people planning to live here also know little about the country beyond paellas, siestas and playas.


This particular story made headlines around the world, with most UK newspapers and also the NY Times, Fox News, Newsweek and many others covering it. Many more people know about it this week than last.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

mrypg9 said:


> Have just voted online in the Labour Leadership contest....voted for the least unappealing of the candidates who weren't Jeremy Corbyn.
> What a choice...two retreads and two zealots.
> And all likely to make Labour unelectable in 2020.


Of course, we're guilty of taking the thread off-topic (sorreee) but I'm genuinely glad I haven't got a vote. I've been quite disgusted by the way both Andy Burnham and Yvette Cooper have been behaving - Jeremy Corbyn has at least refused to stoop to their level and conducted a dignified and civil campaign concentrating on the policies. However, said policies ......
.
I haven't liked the interventions of Blair, Brown, Milliband et al either. Totally counter-productive, I think


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Lynn R said:


> Of course, we're guilty of taking the thread off-topic (sorreee) but I'm genuinely glad I haven't got a vote. I've been quite disgusted by the way both Andy Burnham and Yvette Cooper have been behaving - Jeremy Corbyn has at least refused to stoop to their level and conducted a dignified and civil campaign concentrating on the policies. However, said policies ......
> .
> I haven't liked the interventions of Blair, Brown, Milliband et al either. Totally counter-productive, I think


You obviously haven't read the Twitter and some Facebook comments from Corbynistas! And reading CIF beneath pieces in The Guardian has been sickening. The gist is that anyone who doesn't support Corbyn is a Tory, scum, fascist....yes, Alan Johnson was called a fascist on Twitter.... Suzanne Moore in today's Guardian has written a piece about the abuse directed especially at Liz Kendall. Corbyn himself has stayed out of the abuse - his fans have been active enough.
Brown's intervention was I thought to the point. I watched the whole fifty minute speech. The point was the obvious one that talk is talk without power. I think Corbyn's 'People's QE' plan is unworkable, his return (or not) to Clause 4 ridiculous, his renationalisation plans unrealisable, apart from the railways. But I support scrapping Trident and although he has unsavoury friends, no way is he an anti-Semite.
But in order to win Labour has to gain one hundred Tory held seats and boundary changes make a further fifty likely to be lost to Labour. I don't think any of the four could win in 2020 but Corbyn's Labour will be a wipe-out.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

emlyn said:


> Who are the two retreads?


Well, two of them are former Cabinet members under Brown.....

OK, back on topic.

We don't -yet - have a gagging law in the UK but we do have the Investigatory Powers Act of 2000, a piece of legislation that allows nearly 800 government departments and public bodies to intercept our mail, tap our phones and look at our e-mails.
Afaik Spain has nothing like that law.
Neither, in spite of the Madrid train bombing atrocities, does Spain have CCTV cameras everywhere.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

It really is important that people know about this law and its implications if they are planning to live in Spain. It's no different from learning about driving regulations.

I once posted this photo on Facebook of the car used by the Policia Local here. Someone had scratched off the final "l" (_loca_ means crazy). I'd be breaking the law if I did that now. If they went through my friend list and decided I was a potential subversive because some of them belong to left-wing or anti-monarchist organisations, I could end up in trouble. 

It is now illegal to dress up as a policeman or GC at a fancy dress party. This even applies to children at Hallowe'en and carnival - yet costumes are on sale in Chinese bazaars. How many people would realise they could get fined for this?


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## Turtles (Jan 9, 2011)

They've been up themselves even before the gagging law came in. While visiting a GC station a couple of years ago my seven year old son burped. A twit in a uniform (am I allowed to say that?) shouted "Learn some respect!"


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> It really is important that people know about this law and its implications if they are planning to live in Spain. It's no different from learning about driving regulations.
> 
> I once posted this photo on Facebook of the car used by the Policia Local here. Someone had scratched off the final "l" (_loca_ means crazy). I'd be breaking the law if I did that now. If they went through my friend list and decided I was a potential subversive because some of them belong to left-wing or anti-monarchist organisations, I could end up in trouble.
> 
> ...


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Most people go on holiday to relax and enjoy themselves before returning to another forty-plus weeks or so of what is more than likely a boring not very well paid job. They don't want to know about the politics of the country they're spending their two weeks in. Why should they?
> .


I agree. I would not be looking at laws about where I could demonstrate if I were going on a weeks holiday anywhere


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Madliz said:


> This particular story made headlines around the world, with most UK newspapers and also the NY Times, Fox News, Newsweek and many others covering it. Many more people know about it this week than last.


Well, that can only be good, can't it?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Whilst I don't agree with many aspects of the Ley Orgánica de Protección de la Seguridad Ciudadana otherwise known as the Ley Mordaza, and I don't think the fine was justified, I'd like to point out a few things in this case.
The photo was posted on Facebook *with a comment* which was
Aparcas donde te sale de los ******* y encima no te multan (You park where the ffck you like and on top of that, no one fines you)
The police say they had been called urgently o catch people writing grafitti and they wanted to catch them in the act. Of course there's no way of us knowing if that's true or not, and did they need to park exactly there??
The police didn't fine the woman, the local authorities did.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

*Recent related Supreme Court action which is being widely commented on in Spain and abroad*
Spanish rapper Voltonyc to spend three years in prison for insulting the king
Spain’s top court upholds ruling against the Mallorcan artist for slander and glorifying terrorism

https://elpais.com/elpais/2018/02/21/inenglish/1519204313_494974.html
Justified or not?
*
Then in the Madrid art fair ARCO
*Madrid art fair pulls work describing jailed Catalan leaders as “political prisoners”
Artist Santiago Sierra calls the decision “an anachronistic and exotic act of censorhip”

https://elpais.com/elpais/2018/02/22/inenglish/1519290953_635659.html


*And Amnesty International has something to say*
Amnesty International accuses Spain of restricting freedom of speech
In report, non-profit says Spain disproportionately prosecutes people for “glorifying acts of terror”

https://elpais.com/elpais/2018/02/22/inenglish/1519292044_500937.html


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> *Recent related Supreme Court action which is being widely commented on in Spain and abroad*
> Spanish rapper Voltonyc to spend three years in prison for insulting the king
> Spain’s top court upholds ruling against the Mallorcan artist for slander and glorifying terrorism
> 
> ...


Not remotely justified and any government that does this sort of thing is shooting themselves in the foot. Turning someone into a martyr simply amplifies their opinions and gains them more followers. Which in this case may or may not be a good thing?

Interesting parallel with Stormzy's performance at the Brit awards. I´ve not followed the story in detail but AFAIK there has been no attempt to criminalise him.

Brit Awards 2018: Stormzy takes dig at Theresa May, attacks Daily Mail in Brits performance freestyle | The Independent


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## angkag (Oct 29, 2013)

mrypg9 said:


> Oh yes, I remember that only too well...At least the 'I leave that sort of thing to my husband' response has died out....


My wife still says that ! I make all the important decisions like who the GOAT football player is, she makes all the minor ones like where we live, what we eat, who our friends are etc.


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