# Long term visa



## panama rick

Hi everyone,
My name is Rick and my wife and I are retired US citizens living in Panama. I'm looking for information on elective residency requirements; specifically finances. about 18 months ago we gathered all pertinent information for this visa and flew to the Italian consulate in Miami. In the first ten minutes we were told that we didn't have enough income to qualify. He told us that we needed $8000/month or a million dollars in the bank. I'm sure that here are a few of you who will say that I am exaggerating, trust me I am not. I had done a good amount of research prior to this and the Italian government does not specify an amount required. They only say "sufficient". But $8000.
What I am looking for is someone with first hand knowledge with this process. Have you experienced the same thing?
I've also researched France and Spain and they are specific and reasonable about finances. But Italy is our first choice.
Thank you in advance.
Respectfully, Rick


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## accbgb

Each consulate sets its own standard for "adequate income" but the number most often seen is €30,000 - €35,000 per year per person, so $8,000 per month is in the right neighborhood.

The euro has come down quite a bit against the dollar in the past 18 months, so you may find the consulate would be a bit more reasonable today but probably not by much.


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## panama rick

Do you know why the great disparity between Italy and France or Spain?


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## accbgb

Maybe Italy wants to boost her economy by bringing in only people likely to spend a great deal of money. 

Forum member Mozzella had, if I recall correctly, an interesting solution to this problem. As you may know already, you and your wife will file separate visa requests; what Mozzella did (again, if I recall correctly) is both he and his wife filed separate applications but used the same supporting financial documents. So, his application was judged against the $4,000 per month per person requirement and then (separately) his wife's was judged against the $4,000 requirement. Apparently no one at the consulate noticed that they were both relying on the same income and assets.


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## accbgb

Is there any Italian blood in either your or your wife's family?


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## NickZ

panama rick said:


> Do you know why the great disparity between Italy and France or Spain?


Strange. Most people seem to find France requires more then Italy. Spain seemed lower.


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## panama rick

My wife's paternal grandfather was born in Foggia. And both France and Spain have considerably lower financial thresholds.


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## accbgb

Then there is an excellent chance that your wife would qualify for Italian citizenship by blood right. If so, you would have a couple of ways to approach this. One would be to acquire the necessary documentation, then go to Italy and make the formal application there. Upon submission of your documents, you could probably be granted a PdiS (Permission to Stay) while awaiting the outcome.

The other, more typical route, is to submit your application at your consulate and then wait. As backed up as the Miami consulate is, the process could take several years.

The most basic question is, was your wife's paternal grandfather still an Italian citizen at the time of her father's birth? If yes, then she almost certainly qualifies for citizenship. Once your wife has her Italian citizenship recognized, she has an absolute right to live and work anywhere in Italy (and a slightly lesser right throughout the EU). As her husband, you would have the right to accompany her.


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## panama rick

We looked at this initially. My wife's aunt has kept a lot of documentation regarding her grandfather. We have two stumbling blocks. He came through Ellis Island and somewhere in the process the last letter of the family name got changed from an "a" to an "o". This is a major issue. As we are unable to locate his marriage certificate form the states. Not exactly sure where he got married. Are there attorneys in Italy that handle these kinds of matters?


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## accbgb

The slight name change can most likely be easily resolved; the other issues probably just require a knowledgeable researcher.

I sent you a PM with a couple of links.


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## panama rick

Thanks for the info and your help.


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## BBCWatcher

"Dumb" question: why did you apply for an Elective Residence visa in Miami instead of in Panama? If you're legal residents of Panama, wouldn't the Italian embassy there be your venue?


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## panama rick

We were living in the US at the time.


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## rsetzer99

$8000 a month seems rather high. I recall seeing posts before about the Miami office quoting a very high amount. In seeing posts from other bloggers, it appeared that the amount they were quoted at different consulates was more reasonable. It varied, but seemed to be in $5000-6000 per month range. $8000 a month and we could live quite the life of luxury in Italy.

I'll have to keep doing frequent research on this as we had intended to retire to Italy in about 5 years, but would probably only have 6-7 thousand a month.


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## panama rick

It is high. There is a definite disparity among consulate locations. when we did our research I queried three different ones and got either "it depends" or $5000 to $6000. Looking back I don't feel the individual in Miami was at all interested in working with us. We were out of there in less than 10 minutes. I've also been looking at France and Spain which are much more realistic.


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## BBCWatcher

The "advertised" minimum is about 3000 (or perhaps now 3200) euro/month per adult in total assured passive income. However, consulates have considerable latitude to require more. ER visas are discretionary. There's no "right" to an ER visa.

Either way, it's a non-trivial amount of income (or wealth equivalent) they require.


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## panama rick

You are right. It is not a trivial amount. I'm not sure why when you consider France is 1445 euros/pp and Spain in slightly less.


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## BBCWatcher

What elective residency programs are you talking about in France and Spain? I'm not aware they even had such programs, at least not like Italy's.

Spain has a "homestead" program for foreigners, but it requires buying, well, a home -- real estate. In Italy you don't have to do that. France has a "long stay" visa (hypothetically; it's difficult to get, I've read), but it's not actual residency -- not in the legal sense, anyway. It doesn't put you on path to EC Long Term Residence or to eventual citizenship, notably (as I understand it).


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## panama rick

Thank you for continuing this dialogue as this subject is important to us. I have done a fair amount of research into France and Spain. Both have long term visa categories. France labels it a "long term visitors" program. I've communicated with several individuals who have been under this program for 5+ years. It's a matter of presenting financial each year to prove nothing has changed. Spain's program is called "Non Lucrative Residence Program". Very similar to France & Italy in terms of documentation. Spain's program becomes permanent after 5 years. Both countries financial requirements are around $35,000/yr/couple. But the bottom line for us is it's not Italy.


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## accbgb

Regardless of the reasons why, Italy has chosen - as is her right - to set the bar quite high and there is little you can do about that other than to petition the Italian legislature for change and wait 20 to 40 years to see if they take up your cause.

If you really want to go to Italy, your best option is probably to pursue Italian citizenship for your wife.


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## panama rick

Unfortunately you're right. I've already contacted Luigi Paiano.


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