# Stimulus Payments



## Alltimegreat1

My understanding is that all US citizen single adults are eligible for a $1,200 payment if they earn less than $75,000 (based on the 2018 or 2019 tax return). Married couples earning less than $150,000 will receive a $2,400 payment. $500 will be added for each dependent child.

I've seen multiple videos that claim the government will make a direct deposit to accounts of taxpayers who "have direct deposit set up" with the IRS.

I paper-filed for 2018 and included my bank account information for the direct deposit tax return, which I received. Does this qualify as having my bank account information on file with the IRS?


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## Bevdeforges

Alltimegreat1 said:


> I paper-filed for 2018 and included my bank account information for the direct deposit tax return, which I received. Does this qualify as having my bank account information on file with the IRS?


I think that's all it takes.


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## Nononymous

It appears that payment will be based on AGI below $75,000, not income. If true this means that anyone earning below $180,000 while taking the FEIE would qualify for the full amount.

Donald Trump reportedly wishes to have his signature appear on the cheque, which would make that a more entertaining option than direct deposit if you weren't in a hurry to receive the money.


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## byline

Good article about this.

It's still not clear to me if U.S. citizens living outside the United States actually qualify.


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## Nononymous

byline said:


> Good article about this.
> 
> It's still not clear to me if U.S. citizens living outside the United States actually qualify.


Everything I've seen suggests that non-residents with an SSN who file returns or receive social security will qualify. Including comments from the person from Greenback in the sponsored thread here.

The only thing I've not been able to figure out is whether the IRS will do direct deposit to a Canadian bank account, or whether you need to wait for a cheque in the mail.


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## Bevdeforges

I saw something recently that strongly implied that overseas residents would receive the payment but it also seemed to imply that those who had not opted for direct deposit of their refunds in 2018 or 2019 would have to wait for a paper check to be issued. The IRS will not direct deposit refunds in foreign bank accounts. (Though oddly enough, US Social Security has direct deposit options in many countries.)

Remains to be seen how all this works out - but they have said that direct deposits of the stimulus payments may begin as early as April 15th, whereas paper checks will probably take "a couple" of months. Kind of like how anyone who wants a coronovirus test can get one....


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## Moulard

> The IRS does not have my direct deposit information. What can I do?
> 
> In the coming weeks, Treasury plans to develop a web-based portal for individuals to provide their banking information to the IRS online, so that individuals can receive payments immediately as opposed to checks in the mail.


https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/economic-impact-payments-what-you-need-to-know

I have no doubt that whatever the solution that they develop will prevent many overseas taxpayers from providing appropriate banking details. It would not surprise me if the requirements are the same as providing electronic access your transcripts etc


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## amphitecna2019

So those of us, even living overseas, who've filed our taxes, just need to sit back and wait for a check from DJT to appear in our foreign mailboxes?

I'm not holding my breath, but am curious to see how this plays out. I'd just assumed I was ineligible.


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## Nononymous

Indeed, that's how it will supposedly work. If you filed for 2018 or 2019 and your AGI is below $75k, then you will receive $1200 from Mr. Trump himself. Don't forget to show your appreciation. He hates it when people aren't appreciative. 

If you have a US bank account set up for direct deposit, the money will come relatively soon; if not, it may be several months before they mail a cheque to the address you have on file.


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## amphitecna2019

Nononymous said:


> Indeed, that's how it will supposedly work. If you filed for 2018 or 2019 and your AGI is below $75k, then you will receive $1200 from Mr. Trump himself. Don't forget to show your appreciation. He hates it when people aren't appreciative.
> 
> If you have a US bank account set up for direct deposit, the money will come relatively soon; if not, it may be several months before they mail a cheque to the address you have on file.


Hmm, well, like I said, I'm not holding my breath. I am a bit disappointed though, because I did just file. And of course without my US banking information. I guess we'll just have to wait and see then! 
popcorn anyone?


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## Bevdeforges

Just be thankful you're NOT in the middle of that sh|tshow Bonespurs hosts every evening on TV. It's becoming ever more crystal clear that the man is completely out of control. What is frightening is that all those toady folks are actually still doing whatever is necessary to keep him in power.

Take the money and run is my motto on this one.


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## Nononymous

amphitecna2019 said:


> Hmm, well, like I said, I'm not holding my breath. I am a bit disappointed though, because I did just file. And of course without my US banking information. I guess we'll just have to wait and see then!
> popcorn anyone?


There will apparently be a form you can use to submit banking information to facilitate direct deposit, even if you just filed your 2019 return without it. Needs to be a US account though. 

On that note, I just discovered that Transferwise does a multi-currency account with US routing number.


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## Mdabag

Nononymous said:


> There will apparently be a form you can use to submit banking information to facilitate direct deposit, even if you just filed your 2019 return without it. Needs to be a US account though.
> 
> On that note, I just discovered that Transferwise does a multi-currency account with US routing number.


I've been living abroad in Dubai, UAE since 2008 and I file tax returns every year. I've never included bank details since with the exclusion I've never owed any taxes. I included my mailing address here in my 2018 returns but:

A) mailing system here is not so good
B) I'm moving in a months time which i'm sure the check won't arrive before then

I have an account in the US so a form which I can submit with my banking information would solve all my issues.

Also I just had a newborn son 5 months ago. Got his passport and citizenship all taken care of but can I get him a social security number from outside the US quickly in order to get the dependent benefit?

Thanks


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## Bevdeforges

For a child born outside the US, you normally need to take him in to the local consulate to get a US SS number - but that normally is handled when you do the honors for his passport. Are you sure you haven't already applied for his SSN?

As far as a bank account number, you probably have to wait until the government sets up the promised website where you can fill in the necessary information. However there is no time frame on that just yet.


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## Moulard

Mdabag said:


> I have an account in the US so a form which I can submit with my banking information would solve all my issues.


I gather the intent is to eventually create a means for folks to supply banking details to the IRS.



> The IRS will soon provide guidance for these individuals on the steps to take to get their payment as soon as possible.


https://www.irs.gov/coronavirus-tax-relief-and-economic-impact-payments


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## frexpat1

Here is a maybe a more unusual scenario.


Former green card holder with a SSN, non-American, living outside the US, married to an American also living abroad, filing taxes as normal each year. The American spouse died in 2018. Last year was the last year that the green card holder filed taxes (2019, for 2018) and settled everything, as the green card holder had also officially renounced the green card and sent back to a local embassy. 

Because checks are being sent to people who filed during this time period, should this person expect it, or not?


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## Bevdeforges

frexpat1 said:


> Here is a maybe a more unusual scenario.
> 
> 
> Former green card holder with a SSN, non-American, living outside the US, married to an American also living abroad, filing taxes as normal each year. The American spouse died in 2018. Last year was the last year that the green card holder filed taxes (2019, for 2018) and settled everything, as the green card holder had also officially renounced the green card and sent back to a local embassy.
> 
> Because checks are being sent to people who filed during this time period, should this person expect it, or not?


Only time will tell. Did that last tax filing include giving them your bank account coordinates, either for making a payment or receiving a refund? If so, keep watching that bank account (a US one) this week to see if you get a refund or not. If you didn't include a US bank account on your last filing, no way of telling.

I know of someone who filed their last returns for 2018 and 2019, both with the bank information (because they were getting a refund). Then, in January the person renounced their US citizenship. So, will they get a payment or not? (The person is also waiting to get that refund for 2019.)

The US Government works in mysterious ways, and sometimes all you can do is wait and see what happens.


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## frexpat1

Bevdeforges said:


> frexpat1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a maybe a more unusual scenario.
> 
> 
> Former green card holder with a SSN, non-American, living outside the US, married to an American also living abroad, filing taxes as normal each year. The American spouse died in 2018. Last year was the last year that the green card holder filed taxes (2019, for 2018) and settled everything, as the green card holder had also officially renounced the green card and sent back to a local embassy.
> 
> Because checks are being sent to people who filed during this time period, should this person expect it, or not?
> 
> 
> 
> Only time will tell. Did that last tax filing include giving them your bank account coordinates, either for making a payment or receiving a refund? If so, keep watching that bank account (a US one) this week to see if you get a refund or not. If you didn't include a US bank account on your last filing, no way of telling.
> 
> I know of someone who filed their last returns for 2018 and 2019, both with the bank information (because they were getting a refund). Then, in January the person renounced their US citizenship. So, will they get a payment or not? (The person is also waiting to get that refund for 2019.)
> 
> The US Government works in mysterious ways, and sometimes all you can do is wait and see what happens.
Click to expand...

Indeed, I suppose so! No bank account information given, so would be a check in the mail.

Same for me personally.

It'll be good with that tool meant to come out this week to check the status of the refund!


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## CURTGS

The IRS will only use direct deposit information you entered on your 2018 or 2019 federal return to receive a REFUND and NOT the bank information you may have provided to pay for tax OWED.


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## frexpat1

Has anyone gotten the check payment status thing to work with a foreign address/info? I have entered it exactly as it was in my tax return yet it keeps saying it doesn't match.


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## CURTGS

frexpat1 said:


> Has anyone gotten the check payment status thing to work with a foreign address/info? I have entered it exactly as it was in my tax return yet it keeps saying it doesn't match.


AFAIK, The IRS Get My Payment site will not accept a foreign postal code on the log in page (nor will it accept a US zip code, no zip code at all, or the empty string). The tool systemtically returns an "information doesn't match our records" error.

On April 17, Democrats Abroad wrote to the IRS/Treasury Department concerning this glitch (amongst other things). I can't post the link, it seems, because I'm new. 

Good luck.


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## Bevdeforges

Just to help out here, the Dems Abroad piece on glitches in the system for paying the "stimulus" payment is here: https://www.democratsabroad.org/taxation_news


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## CURTGS

Bevdeforges said:


> Just to help out here, the Dems Abroad piece on glitches in the system for paying the "stimulus" payment is here:
> 
> Yes, that is it, thanks (I believe I've now arrived at the magic five and can post a link or two).


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## 255

frexpat1 -- The stimulus check is actually an advanced tax credit for 2020 federal income tax returns. It is an estimate based on previous years tax reporting. If you don't actually qualify in 2020, it will be adjusted, i.e. the credit will be disallowed. Sure there is a chance you might inadvertantly get a check, that you would actually not qualify for -- just like the many dead people that have recieved checks based on 2018 or 2019 returns. This money will need to be returned.

The irs.gov "Get Your Payment" button still has lots of problems for folks who filed paper returns, with-out owing any tax. To make matters worse, the IRS has temporarily stopped processing paper returns.

By the way, those who filed 2018 or 2019 returns electronicly seemed to have already recieved ther direct deposits (all of my kids have already recieved theirs.) Cheers, 255


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## Bevdeforges

255 said:


> frexpat1 -- The stimulus check is actually an advanced tax credit for 2020 federal income tax returns. It is an estimate based on previous years tax reporting. If you don't actually qualify in 2020, it will be adjusted, i.e. the credit will be disallowed. Sure there is a chance you might inadvertantly get a check, that you would actually not qualify for -- just like the many dead people that have recieved checks based on 2018 or 2019 returns. This money will need to be returned.


I know that was one of the many proposals when they were pulling together the legislation for this, but I believe the idea of making it an advanced tax credit was dropped (also dropped was the idea of making the amount reportable on 2020 returns as regular income).

Marketwatch seems to agree on this point: https://www.marketwatch.com/story/d...-myths-about-the-stimulus-payments-2020-04-18

If that were the case, there would be no point in making the payment available to those on social security who otherwise do not need to file income tax returns.


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## Moulard

I haven't read the final legislation but I believe based on commentary that is out there that in the end it is being treated as a refundable tax credit being paid in advance.

As such it would behave very much like any other refundable tax credit... except that it has been sent out early.

How it gets reported on 2020 tax returns will be interesting, particularly as I suspect there will be those who although eligible will not receive it due to the vagaries of posting checks etc


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## Bevdeforges

Every source that I have seen indicates that this is simply a payment (and NOT a "stimulus" payment, but rather a flat out income assistance payment), not considered an "advance tax credit" - since it is payable (automatically, no less) to those who would otherwise have no obligation to either file a tax return or to actually pay any taxes.

I know of quite a few people who have already received their payments (by direct deposit) and who will not be required to file tax returns for 2020, so no "recovery" of the "credit" possible. 

Oddly enough, it seems very consistent with the online kerfluffle over the grants made to some of the largest and most well endowed universities in the US. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...for-small-businesses-trump-says-idUSKCN2233BR
I guess legislation drafted and passed in haste runs the risk of not including all the bells and whistles.


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## CURTGS

The stimulus payment, according to any number of credible online sources, is defined by law as a "refundable" advance tax credit on your 2020 federal income taxes (its "refundability" being the reason people who have no legal obligation to file a federal return because their AGI is under the threshold for filing can claim the credit).

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/13/will-you-have-to-pay-back-the-coronavirus-stimulus-check.html

https://www.forbes.com/sites/adviso...into-your-tax-refund-next-april/#38ea5c425ea8

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/d...-myths-about-the-stimulus-payments-2020-04-18

https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/tax...-19-rebate-waiting-file-their-2019-tax-return


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## CURTGS

*Marketwatch seems to agree on this point: https://www.marketwatch.com/story/d...-myths-about-the-stimulus-payments-2020-04-18
*
Market watch does not at all agree with your assertion, which is false:

Some of the confusion may lie in the payment’s technical terms. The stimulus checks 
“are considered an advance refund of a 2020 tax credit, not a loan,” said Neal Stern, a 
member of the American Institute of CPAs Financial Literacy Commission."

*If that were the case, there would be no point in making the payment available to those on social security who otherwise do not need to file income tax returns.*

The tax credit is REFUNDABLE, which means you can claim it even if you owe no tax, so 
you are completely wrong here.


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## Bevdeforges

CURTGS said:


> The tax credit is REFUNDABLE, which means you can claim it even if you owe no tax, so
> you are completely wrong here.


Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

That said, my $1200 is tucked away safely in my French bank account where the IRS can't mess with it.


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## CURTGS

Bevdeforges said:


> Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.
> 
> That said, my $1200 is tucked away safely in my French bank account where the IRS can't mess with it.


I'm afraid I won't receive my dough anytime soon (international mail service being what it is under COVID-19 conditions) because the IRS Get My Payment tool is broken for filers with foreign addresses as well as for zero-filers (those who neither owed tax nor were owed a refund on their 2018/2019 return). I fall into both categories.


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## Bevdeforges

CURTGS said:


> I'm afraid I won't receive my dough anytime soon (international mail service being what it is under COVID-19 conditions) because the IRS Get My Payment tool is broken for filers with foreign addresses as well as for zero-filers (those who neither owed tax nor were owed a refund on their 2018/2019 return). I fall into both categories.


Given the haste with which the $2 Trillion program was whipped up, I wonder if there might be further glitches to come. Originally, I just assumed I would NOT be eligible for a payment (various reasons I prefer not to discuss online), but it "magically" appeared in my US bank account. Now, with all the discussion about how they intend to pay those on Social Security I wouldn't be completely surprised if I get a check in the post, too. 

Still, I'll worry about that when/if a check appears in the post in a few months.

But technically speaking, I think the intent of that money is to provide assistance to those folks suffering because of unemployment or the general damage to the US economy wrought by the Covid-19 epidemic. Those of us living overseas would be eligible for programs in our countries of residence (i.e. health care, unemployment, general income support, etc.). And our economic situation in 2018 and 2019 may or may not resemble our situation in March, 2020 when all this "stuff" hit the fan. :confused2:


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## CURTGS

Bevdeforges said:


> Given the haste with which the $2 Trillion program was whipped up, I wonder if there might be further glitches to come. Originally, I just assumed I would NOT be eligible for a payment (various reasons I prefer not to discuss online), but it "magically" appeared in my US bank account. Now, with all the discussion about how they intend to pay those on Social Security I wouldn't be completely surprised if I get a check in the post, too.
> 
> Still, I'll worry about that when/if a check appears in the post in a few months.
> 
> But technically speaking, I think the intent of that money is to provide assistance to those folks suffering because of unemployment or the general damage to the US economy wrought by the Covid-19 epidemic. Those of us living overseas would be eligible for programs in our countries of residence (i.e. health care, unemployment, general income support, etc.). And our economic situation in 2018 and 2019 may or may not resemble our situation in March, 2020 when all this "stuff" hit the fan. :confused2:


The thinking is they're advancing you a tax credit on your 2020 federal taxes (the year people à priori will take a Covid-19 hit); you can still claim this credit when filing your federal 2020 return in 2021, even if in 2018/2019 you exceeded the threshold. And if you should exceed the threshold in 2020 and not in one or both of 2018/2019, you needn't pay anything back.

As far as overseas Americans go, the IRS considers the fact I live overseas to be completely orthogonal to my tax obligation or liability and requires me to file just like any other American citizen. I therefore have no compunction whatsoever about taking the stimulus payment; in the contrary case, if they should ever relieve me of the US taxation and filing requirement, I would gladly trade that relief for any and all once-in-a-blue-moon perks.


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## Nononymous

So, in plain language, what happens when a person submits the non-filer form this year, receives the money, and files nothing further next year? 

Nothing, presumably.


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## CURTGS

Nononymous said:


> So, in plain language, what happens when a person submits the non-filer form this year, receives the money, and files nothing further next year?
> 
> Nothing, presumably.


Right, nothing.


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## Nononymous

CURTGS said:


> Right, nothing.


Excellent. Thank you.

The non-filer form is extremely simple: name, address, date of birth, social security number. With Transferwise it's very easy to set up a US routing and account number, so no need to wait for a cheque.


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## Alltimegreat1

CURTGS said:


> The IRS will only use direct deposit information you entered on your 2018 or 2019 federal return to receive a REFUND and NOT the bank information you may have provided to pay for tax OWED.



Interesting. What's your source for this information?


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## Alltimegreat1

255 said:


> frexpat1 -- The irs.gov "Get Your Payment" button still has lots of problems for folks who filed paper returns


Could you please provide a source for this?


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## CURTGS

Alltimegreat1 said:


> Interesting. What's your source for this information?


My source is answer number 24!

https://www.irs.gov/coronavirus/economic-impact-payment-information-center

Q24. I already filed my 2019 tax return and owed tax. I scheduled a Payment (electronic funds withdrawal, Direct Pay, or Electronic Fund Transfer Payment System (EFTPS)) from my bank account. Will the IRS send my Payment to the account I used?

A24. No, the IRS will not send Payments to accounts used to make a payment to the IRS. After you properly verify your identity, the Get My Payment tool will allow you to submit your bank account information if your Payment has not been processed. Providing your bank information is the fastest way to receive your Payment. If we do not have bank information for you, your Payment will be mailed to the address we have on file for you.


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## Bevdeforges

Nononymous said:


> Excellent. Thank you.
> 
> The non-filer form is extremely simple: name, address, date of birth, social security number. With Transferwise it's very easy to set up a US routing and account number, so no need to wait for a cheque.


Evidently the process is simple enough that the scam artists have already been in to claim the payments from folks whose i.d. data has been compromised online. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/...&module=Well&pgtype=Homepage&section=Business


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## Nononymous

Bevdeforges said:


> Evidently the process is simple enough that the scam artists have already been in to claim the payments from folks whose i.d. data has been compromised online. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/...&module=Well&pgtype=Homepage&section=Business


And also dead people, which is not surprising. They are at least more deserving.


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## Alltimegreat1

Is anyone aware of a US citizen expat having received his/her stimulus payment already?


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## Nononymous

Alltimegreat1 said:


> Is anyone aware of a US citizen expat having received his/her stimulus payment already?


Yep. Lots of reports on Reddit of money coming in this week and last week. Direct deposit to US accounts, obviously - not actual cheques in the mail.


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## Bevdeforges

Alltimegreat1 said:


> Is anyone aware of a US citizen expat having received his/her stimulus payment already?


Yup - and as Nononymous says, it was in the bank with the first wave of direct deposits. And transferred over here to France within 24 hours of it coming off "hold."

But the checks are going to take a while longer if they don't have your US bank account data already on file.


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## CURTGS

Nononymous said:


> Excellent. Thank you.
> 
> The non-filer form is extremely simple: name, address, date of birth, social security number. With Transferwise it's very easy to set up a US routing and account number, so no need to wait for a cheque.


Of course, we're assuming here that you will have no legal obligation to file next year, nor this year (AGI below the threshold, etc.).

In the event this would not be the case, all bets are off.

;-)


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## Alltimegreat1

Bevdeforges said:


> Yup - and as Nononymous says, it was in the bank with the first wave of direct deposits. And transferred over here to France within 24 hours of it coming off "hold."
> 
> But the checks are going to take a while longer if they don't have your US bank account data already on file.



Thanks. This is fairly frustrating for me because I clearly qualify and the IRS clearly has my account information on file (unless they lost it). I received a direct deposit refund last year for 2018.

In spite of this, I haven't received any money and the Get My Payment website shows Payment Status Not Available.

I'm beginning to think that paper-filing for 2018 is somehow causing a problem.

I don't really mind waiting a while for the check if I could at least confirm that I haven't been skipped over.


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## Nononymous

CURTGS said:


> Of course, we're assuming here that you will have no legal obligation to file next year, nor this year (AGI below the threshold, etc.).
> 
> In the event this would not be the case, all bets are off.
> 
> ;-)


But of course.


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## byline

Question: Based on what I have read, there will be no taxes owing on this stimulus payment on U.S. tax returns. However, I assume that we will have to report the payment on our 2020 Canadian tax return (and will likely owe taxes on it)? After all, the Canadian benefit will be taxable.


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## Nononymous

byline said:


> Question: Based on what I have read, there will be no taxes owing on this stimulus payment on U.S. tax returns. However, I assume that we will have to report the payment on our 2020 Canadian tax return (and will likely owe taxes on it)? After all, the Canadian benefit will be taxable.


Probably not the case. The US benefit is a tax credit or advance on future tax refund or some such thing, which is not income, so not taxable. The Canadian benefit is effectively a broad extension of EI, an income supplement, and taxable. 

People tend to assume that if they receive money they must owe tax on it somewhere, but this isn't always true. (There was a recent discussion of the tax implications of the stimulus benefit on the Serbinski forum, with technicalities I won't pretend to understand, but the conclusion was that the US benefit was not taxable income as far as Canada is concerned.) 

Quite apart from the practical matter of the Canadian government knowing nothing about payments from the US government.


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## Alltimegreat1

I just watched a video by a CPA posted an hour ago claiming that married couples filing jointly will receive ZERO stimulus money if one of the spouses in not a US citizen.






It seems unreasonable to completely disqualify the US-citizen spouse and all the US-citizen children just because one of the spouses is not a citizen.


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## Nononymous

Alltimegreat1 said:


> I just watched a video by a CPA posted an hour ago claiming that married couples filing jointly will receive ZERO stimulus money if one of the spouses in not a US citizen.
> 
> It seems unreasonable to completely disqualify the US-citizen spouse and all the US-citizen children just because one of the spouses is not a citizen.


That does seem to be how it's currently set up. Filing jointly with a non-US-person spouse would disqualify you.


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## Alltimegreat1

Nononymous said:


> That does seem to be how it's currently set up. Filing jointly with a non-US-person spouse would disqualify you.



I guess this logic will apply to the proposed $2,000/month as well.


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## Nononymous

Alltimegreat1 said:


> I guess this logic will apply to the proposed $2,000/month as well.


Who knows? If they started throwing that kind of money around - by no means certain - they might do it a little more rationally. In which case non-residents might not receive anything. All speculation at this point.


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## CURTGS

Nononymous said:


> That does seem to be how it's currently set up. Filing jointly with a non-US-person spouse would disqualify you.


More accurately, filers otherwise eligible for the stimulus payment who file jointly with an alien spouse *who has no SSN* (and therefore uses an *ITIN*) are disqualified.


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## Alltimegreat1

CURTGS said:


> More accurately, filers otherwise eligible for the stimulus payment who file jointly with an alien spouse *who has no SSN* (and therefore uses an *ITIN*) are disqualified.



This rule seems very unreasonable in that the payments for children are also denied because of this.

Frustrating, but there's no point in getting upset or worrying about things that I cannot control.

Is this rule set out in writing anywhere by the IRS?


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## Bevdeforges

Is it that someone filing jointly with a spouse who only has an ITIN won't get the couples benefit (i.e. $2400) or just that only the taxpayer with an actual US SSN will get a single person benefit (i.e. $1200)? I saw something to the effect that the benefit would not be paid to anyone with an ITIN.

Which does make me wonder how things are being paid out for a foreign couple in the US where one spouse is working and thus has a US SS while the other doesn't work and so presumably would not have a SSN.

Anyhow, as you can tell, it's just a question out of curiosity.


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## CURTGS

Bevdeforges said:


> Is it that someone filing jointly with a spouse who only has an ITIN won't get the couples benefit (i.e. $2400) or just that only the taxpayer with an actual US SSN will get a single person benefit (i.e. $1200)? I saw something to the effect that the benefit would not be paid to anyone with an ITIN.
> 
> Which does make me wonder how things are being paid out for a foreign couple in the US where one spouse is working and thus has a US SS while the other doesn't work and so presumably would not have a SSN.
> 
> Anyhow, as you can tell, it's just a question out of curiosity.


It's insanely unfair, but an eligible person filing seperately from an ineligible spouse will get *his* or *her* benefit (i.e., $1,200 or less depending on AGI). But an eligible person filing jointly with an ineligible spouse (i.e., lacking an SSN) will get nada.

If only that would've been made explicit before some in the adverse case hurriedly filed their 2019 returns to receive their stimulus payment, only to discover they'd been screwed (veuillez excuser mon français).


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## CURTGS

Alltimegreat1 said:


> This rule seems very unreasonable in that the payments for children are also denied because of this.
> 
> Frustrating, but there's no point in getting upset or worrying about things that I cannot control.
> 
> Is this rule set out in writing anywhere by the IRS?


It seems to be set out fairly clearly in the CARES Act legislation itself (although I first saw mention of it, I think, in the LA TIMES online):

https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/3548/text q=product+update

Identification Number Requirement.—

“(1) IN GENERAL.—No credit shall be allowed under subsection (a) to an eligible individual who does not include on the return of tax for the taxable year—

“(A) such individual’s valid identification number,

“(B) in the case of a joint return, the valid identification number of such individual’s spouse, and

“(C) in the case of any qualifying child taken into account under subsection (b)(1)(B), the valid identification number of such qualifying child.

“(2) VALID IDENTIFICATION NUMBER.—

“(A) IN GENERAL.—For purposes of paragraph (1), the term ‘valid identification number’ means a social security number (as such term is defined in section 24(h)(7)).


----------



## CURTGS

"Rep Titus champions Congressional ask for fixes for CARES Act tools for Americans Abroad"
(including "Reversing CARES Act aid exclusion for families with members with no SSNs"

https://www.democratsabroad.org/car...ixes_for_cares_act_tools_for_americans_abroad


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## Alltimegreat1

CURTGS said:


> "Rep Titus champions Congressional ask for fixes for CARES Act tools for Americans Abroad"
> (including "Reversing CARES Act aid exclusion for families with members with no SSNs"
> 
> https://www.democratsabroad.org/car...ixes_for_cares_act_tools_for_americans_abroad



Thanks for posting this. Do you see any chance that the government will actually make any of the suggested changes?


----------



## CURTGS

Alltimegreat1 said:


> Thanks for posting this. Do you see any chance that the government will actually make any of the suggested changes?


I pretty skeptical about it. But that's my nature.
;-)


----------



## Bevdeforges

Alltimegreat1 said:


> Thanks for posting this. Do you see any chance that the government will actually make any of the suggested changes?


Given that Democrats Abroad, along with several other expat organizations, have been begging and pleading with the US government on any number of issues (like citizenship-based-taxation) for years now with no results, I think the chance of any meaningful changes happening with this "one-time" payout is somewhere between "slim" and "none."


----------



## CURTGS

Bevdeforges said:


> Given that Democrats Abroad, along with several other expat organizations, have been begging and pleading with the US government on any number of issues (like citizenship-based-taxation) for years now with no results, I think the chance of any meaningful changes happening with this "one-time" payout is somewhere between "slim" and "none."


That's the spirit! (I wanted to break it to him easily.)

I just tried to log in to the Get My Payment tool again this morning: my information doesn't match their records. I have a simple address:

25 Rue Totalement Foutue
93150

No accents, no apartment numbers, nothing tricky. Can't imagine what internal representation the IRS is using. Whatever.


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## the_mighty_tim

Well, it's good to know that it's not just me who's having problems logging to the Get My Payment system.

I guess that means I have to wait for a cheque to turn up at my address, then figure out exactly how to cash it in.


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## CURTGS

the_mighty_tim said:


> Well, it's good to know that it's not just me who's having problems logging to the Get My Payment system.
> 
> I guess that means I have to wait for a cheque to turn up at my address, then figure out exactly how to cash it in.


No, it's far from being just you. Democrats Abroad have intervened in our behalf:
https://www.democratsabroad.org/taxation_news

As have American Citizens Abroad:
https://www.americansabroad.org/new...lighting-problems-with-get-my-payment-online/

But as I have an AGI under $10,000, and according to the IRS schedule I've seen online, I believe they might have already mailed me a check (unless the subtility of the mechanism filters out foreign filers for the moment, and they show due diligence to rapidly repair the glitches, all of which inspires severe doubt in your correspondant).

I *can* cash a check in US dollars at my bank here, if I should ever receive one before it expires (yet another proposition subject to extreme caution), but am not in the mood to absorb the 15-20% hit I'd take because of the related fees and ****ty forex rates my bank would apply, and would greatly prefer depositing the monies in a financial institution situated in the land of the free and the home of the brave, to be eventually transferred to my French checking via Currencyfair. 

Which is why I wished to avail myself of the Get My Payment tool in the first place.

Good luck.


----------



## Alltimegreat1

Bevdeforges said:


> Given that Democrats Abroad, along with several other expat organizations, have been begging and pleading with the US government on any number of issues (like citizenship-based-taxation) for years now with no results, I think the chance of any meaningful changes happening with this "one-time" payout is somewhere between "slim" and "none."



This sounds about right, but I would think including ITIN holders in a one-time payout would be more likely than the abolition of citizenship-based taxation.

The Democrats Abroad seems to have several congressmen/women supporting this. Have they had this type or support before?


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## Bevdeforges

Alltimegreat1 said:


> The Democrats Abroad seems to have several congressmen/women supporting this. Have they had this type or support before?


Oh yes - for years. AARO and ACA used to send a delegation every year or two to Washington to do some lobbying - not only about the citizenship based taxation thing, but for voting rights, the right to pass citizenship on to children born overseas with one or more American parent, and the big one a few years back, somehow including overseas residents in the US Census. 

They actually did a test of doing census stuff over the Internet - for Americans living in France, Mexico and I think one other country. Results were kind of a muddle so that project died a quick death and hasn't really been heard of since. But it had some legislative backing (at least enough to get the test). 

The problem is that these emergency bail out packages get slapped together pretty quickly without much thought beyond "what can we get past the other party?" and they overlook all the "unintended consequences" - like big companies snarfing up all the money intended for "small business" as well as the lion's share of bail out money directed at "friends of Don." Honestly, there is little or no concern or thought for the individuals involved. 

The problem is that the US has no real "benefits" infrastructure for getting money to people who actually need it. Other countries (like here in Europe) ramped up their unemployment systems to handle the overload, and they have actual health care/public health systems to handle the medical bills. In the US, people who were laid off weeks ago still can't even get in touch with the unemployment office to get their basic benefits. And those who managed to sign up right away aren't receiving any benefits yet.


----------



## Nononymous

From a personal financial planning perspective, I think it's probably best to treat the US stimulus payment as a lottery ticket with better-than-average odds, nothing more.

Canada quickly expanded the unemployment insurance system, first for workers laid off, then for self-employed who are not otherwise eligible, now for university students stuck without summer jobs. Takes about 48 hours from online application to money arriving in your account; $2000 per month ($1250 for students) for 4 months. And health care is of course public.


----------



## Nononymous

Bevdeforges said:


> They actually did a test of doing census stuff over the Internet - for Americans living in France, Mexico and I think one other country. Results were kind of a muddle so that project died a quick death and hasn't really been heard of since. But it had some legislative backing (at least enough to get the test).


Can you imagine running such a test after FATCA? They would find about six Americans overseas.


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## Bevdeforges

Nononymous said:


> Can you imagine running such a test after FATCA? They would find about six Americans overseas.


IIRC it was right about the time that FATCA was ramping up. The AARO group was really promoting participation - and I might add that AARO has many members who are exactly the target group for FATCA.

I actually went to the site and filled out part of the forms - but found it incredibly intrusive and sort of winged it from where I got really offended. But then a friend of mine back in the US mentioned that she had been "selected" for some pre-Census survey (i.e. obligated to complete the forms, apparently the new version of the census "long forms"). I went to the site just for the hell of it, and sure enough, all those questions that the courts said they couldn't ask about nationality were there in full flower. (Security wise it was interesting that you could skim through the whole survey without having to log in or to actually fill anything out.)


----------



## Alltimegreat1

A new video posted today by a tax lawyer describes a new proposal in government for $14,000/year payments that would include illegal immigrants.

If this is true, I would hope that US citizens abroad filing jointly with noncitizen spouses (using ITINs) would also be eligible.


----------



## Nononymous

If the point of this money is to stimulate demand in the domestic economy, giving it to non-residents makes no sense at all. (Whereas giving it to undocumented/illegal residents does.)


----------



## Alltimegreat1

Fair enough, but the first stimulus package did not include any US residency requirement (and illegal immgrants were excluded).


----------



## Nononymous

Alltimegreat1 said:


> Fair enough, but the first stimulus package did not include any US residency requirement (and illegal immgrants were excluded).


The first stimulus package was a hasty ****-show, but speed was of the essence.


----------



## Moulard

Fully agree with you there, but then again, I suspect that you might also believe that taxing people who derive no benefit (direct or indirect) from the services that those tax dollars fund also does not make sense.

As an aside, the OMG mandates that the consular services are provided on a full cost recovery model, and the last OIG audit that I found from 2017 determined that it is actually a profit centre. So we expats are supporting the US economy, in our little way, every time we walk into the local consulate.

Returning to the stimulus payments, citizenship based taxation and all the efforts to expand the net so to speak have made it extremely difficult for them to identify US resident returns from non-resident returns.

Consider the fact that the IRC allows a non-resident alien spouse to elect to be treated as a resident...

One of the prime reasons I think they stopped payments to joint returns where the spouse had an ITIN was that they couldn't conceive of a non-resident alien having a SSN. And even if they did I suspect that the IRS has no readily available means to differentiate resident for immigration purposes from resident for tax purposes.

Address on the return is not fool-proof either. I know many non-resident citizens that use a US address for tax returns simply because don't trust any US organization to be able to post anything outside the US with any reliability.

You can't use filing a state tax return as an indication of residency, because may states do not not have an income tax

And so on..


----------



## Bevdeforges

Actually, the issue is trying to use the federal tax system to distribute what is supposed to be a pure benefit. There is no logical connection between "taxpayers" and those in need of assistance in this current crisis. The term "stimulus payment" is a huge misnomer - the intent of the payment is to support those who have lost their incomes due to the pandemic. People aren't going to run out and buy a new car or fix up their homes with the money. They're going to use it to help pay the rent and buy groceries to get them through the lock down.

Under that logic, non-residents really shouldn't be entitled to payment since they would most likely be eligible for whatever assistance payments are available in their countries of residence (unemployment and/or the health care system). And no, I'm not pontificating here, I fully admit that I took the money and ran. For whatever reason, I was in the very first round of direct payments that had to sit, "pending" until April 15th to be transferred to my overseas bank account.


----------



## CURTGS

Bevdeforges said:


> Actually, the issue is trying to use the federal tax system to distribute what is supposed to be a pure benefit. There is no logical connection between "taxpayers" and those in need of assistance in this current crisis. The term "stimulus payment" is a huge misnomer - the intent of the payment is to support those who have lost their incomes due to the pandemic. People aren't going to run out and buy a new car or fix up their homes with the money. They're going to use it to help pay the rent and buy groceries to get them through the lock down.
> 
> Under that logic, non-residents really shouldn't be entitled to payment since they would most likely be eligible for whatever assistance payments are available in their countries of residence (unemployment and/or the health care system). And no, I'm not pontificating here, I fully admit that I took the money and ran. For whatever reason, I was in the very first round of direct payments that had to sit, "pending" until April 15th to be transferred to my overseas bank account.


You may wish to broaden your viewpoint to encompass the reality that not everyone is you, livng the expatriated high life in the *pays de cocagne*.


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## Bevdeforges

CURTGS said:


> You may wish to broaden your viewpoint to encompass the reality that not everyone is you, living the expatriated high life in the *pays de cocagne*.


Hardly the "high life" - an unfortunate stereotype regarding those living overseas (at least in the minds of the American administration). The issue is that a national government is responsible for the welfare and well being of its residents, not necessarily just of its "taxpayers" (however defined). 

It's because the US has no infrastructure for paying benefits to those who need and deserve them that they are forced to use an admittedly out-of-date and increasingly creaky tax system like this.


----------



## CURTGS

Bevdeforges said:


> Hardly the "high life" - an unfortunate stereotype regarding those living overseas (at least in the minds of the American administration). The issue is that a national government is responsible for the welfare and well being of its residents, not necessarily just of its "taxpayers" (however defined).
> 
> It's because the US has no infrastructure for paying benefits to those who need and deserve them that they are forced to use an admittedly out-of-date and increasingly creaky tax system like this.


You are living in France, which is indeed the high life in comparison to very many, and your reasoning is faulty because it seemingly ignores those Americans who live elsewhere, in countries and regions where the weave of the social safety net may be quite considerably looser than it is France, or even totally nonexistant. 

A governement is responsible for the welfare of its *citizens*, BTW, whereever they reside.


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## Alltimegreat1

These are certainly valid points made in the posts above, but the conversation seems to be turning into a political one (what SHOULD BE the rule).

I personally don't feel obligated to try to understand, accept, or scrutinize the logic behind the policies enacted by the US government because I have zero power to influence anything they do (aside from casting one single vote out of over 100 million).

I think the best approach is simply to gain a thorough understanding of the what the rules are and how they're enforced, and then attempt to (legally) benefit from them to the greatest extent possible.


----------



## Bevdeforges

Alltimegreat1 said:


> I personally don't feel obligated to try to understand, accept, or scrutinize the logic behind the policies enacted by the US government because I have zero power to influence anything they do (aside from casting one single vote out of over 100 million).
> 
> I think the best approach is simply to gain a thorough understanding of the what the rules are and how they're enforced, and then attempt to (legally) benefit from them to the greatest extent possible.


Definitely in agreement with this. I only wonder what the actual intent of the legislation was. Who exactly were they looking to benefit with the funds?

And I agree that the ITIN rule (or exception) seems to be counter-intuitive in many ways. Because there are many foreigners/non-citizens with valid US SSN who may have filed tax returns in 2018 or 2019 - some of whom live outside the US. I know at one point they were discussing requiring a certain minimum AGI on the relevant tax return in order to qualify for a payment (which could potentially have eliminated many "overseas taxpayers" if they used the FEIE to exclude their earned income). 

And then, too, an NRA who receives a spouse benefit under US SS is given a US SSN. (NOT an ITIN.) I assume they give these folks a special sequence number or something, but I guess we'll see what happens, as this is the case for my husband. 

Then, too, there are the cases of those who filed a return in 2018 or 2019, but who have since renounced their US citizenship. Seems odd that they would benefit as the pandemic causing the problem only happened in 2020 - but given how they are distributing the funds, the criteria is based on if they filed in either of those two years.

Just curious about what was intended vs. who they wound up paying.


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## Alltimegreat1

Good point.

The way politicians are by nature, I would guess that their primary intent in providing the stimulus relief was to improve their own popularity and chances of reelection by making it seem like they're "doing something" to help while also making good on promises to bail out the special interests that give them money. That combined with the general laziness, sloppiness, and inefficiency in government has presumably given rise to the provisions of the CARES Act. Quite possibly no thought at all was given to the topics we've been discussing here.

I think the government is quite happy to have people divided politically the way they are. This leads to each side accusing the other of being at fault for anything and everything and serves to distract people from the fact that the government itself is a self-serving entity.


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## CURTGS

And then, too, an NRA who receives a spouse benefit under US SS is given a US SSN. (NOT an ITIN.) I assume they give these folks a special sequence number or something, but I guess we'll see what happens, as this is the case for my husband. 

There is such a thing as an SSN that is not valid for employment issued to people in order that they may get some benefit or service where an SSN is required (which I assume would be your hubby's situation exactly).

Note that to receive the stimulus payment you must have a *work-eligible* SSN, as the IRS makes explicit at the link below:

https://www.irs.gov/coronavirus/get-my-payment-frequently-asked-questions#paymentnot


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## Alltimegreat1

Now there's a lawsuit filed against the government to include people with ITINs in the stimulus payment. The first minute of this video explains this. Unfortunately he doesn't provide many details.


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## giannisss

hallo, 

does anyone know, when ssa beneficiaries , who live abroad and are not required to file a return ( we file only fbar), will receive the payment of 1200?

The social security benefits are deposited in a greek bank. The instructions dont mention any different for beneficiaries who receive SSbenefits in a foregin bank. They mention only this : ' You should receive your payment by the end of April in the same way you receive your Social Security benefit'. 

I checked today and nothing deposit


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## Bevdeforges

I wouldn't count on your payment being direct deposited into a foreign bank account. Unless the local Embassy/Consulate gets involved (which is usually how the direct deposit of SS benefits is done). 

Chances are they'll send checks to those who live overseas and haven't had occasion/need to file a tax return giving US account info for a refund. I've seen info from the IRS saying that those who have given their US bank account info to the IRS for payments rather than refunds cannot have their economic impact payments direct deposited - something having to do with how direct deposits work in the US.

You could try checking the website for the US Embassy in Greece. If they have a Social Security section (usually called the Federal Benefits Unit) they may post something on the website indicating if they will be handling the overseas deposits.


----------



## giannisss

Thank you, 
Not only the american embassy has FBU, but also it is responsible for 15 countries, due to the large number of greek americans and it is very difficult to manage to call them.

Actually the SSbenefits are received in a dollar account , not euro. 
The greek bank has cooperation with an us bank. The greek iban has the same digits (except the initial GR) with the us bank. The us bank has provided with the ABA number.
So the SSA has in his records the aba and the number of the us bank. 
When the SSA deposits the benefits , the benefits is being transferred immediately to the greek bank at the same date ( every 3rd of each month)
Thats why i think , i receive this payment.

this is from fbu site :
1.) If you want to enroll in a US Dollar Account in a Greek bank, you must go to only one the following Bank Organizationsiraeus Bank, Alpha Bank or National Bank of Greece, and sign Treasury Department Form SSA 1199. The Bank will provide and forward the form to the Federal Benefits Unit. You do not need to send us any information. Due to specific regulations, you may not be able to use Dollar accounts opened in a Greek bank in the past on your own. IMPORTANT NOTE: You must mention at the financial institution that you want to apply for a US Dollar Account for US Retirement Benefits.

2.) If you want to enroll in a Greek Bank Euro Account, then you must provide us with the SWIFT code for the bank branch and IBAN number obtained from the bank. Send the information to the Federal Benefit Unit


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## Bevdeforges

Wow, that is a whole bunch different from how the direct deposit stuff works from the Paris Embassy FBU. It's those kinds of differences that make me think that the IRS is unlikely to use the FBU "foreign deposit" information and may just mail you a paper check. (With Bonespurs' name on it in the "memo" space.)

But do let us know when you get your payment. It will be interesting to see how they handle things. 

I receive my SS payment in my French bank account every month, but I have a US bank account that I just happened to have given the IRS the info on because I was getting my first refund in ages for my 2018 taxes. I'm assuming they have some way to cross check these things so that I won't get a double payment - but I don't entirely rule out the possibility.


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## JbRK

For anyone who had trouble with get my payment, I think it might be working now.

I noticed that on my check that I received in the post today the post code should read 5XX and instead the IRS put SXX so substituted the number with a letter. I'm not sure if they've just made a mistake with mine seeing as they used the wrong initial for my middle name as well (I imagine this is going to cause me grief when trying to cash the check now), but when entering SXX into the get my payment postcode it worked....


----------



## CURTGS

JbRK said:


> For anyone who had trouble with get my payment, I think it might be working now.
> 
> I noticed that on my check that I received in the post today the post code should read 5XX and instead the IRS put SXX so substituted the number with a letter. I'm not sure if they've just made a mistake with mine seeing as they used the wrong initial for my middle name as well (I imagine this is going to cause me grief when trying to cash the check now), but when entering SXX into the get my payment postcode it worked....



According to some recent posts on Reddit and elsewhere, it does now appear that the Get My Payment torture tool is functional for many of us filing from abroad with foreign addresses. I couldn't be happier, because they fixed their COBOL gizmo just in time for its utility to be rendered useless for my purposes, as I received a paper check in the mail here on May 7, exactly the eventuality I meant to avoid by logging in to the tool to provide my direct deposit info. Unfortunately, that proved consistently impossible until maybe it recently wasn't, but by then it was too late. Good luck.


----------



## Nononymous

Also a first report on reddit of a previously non-compliant US citizen in Australia - your basic left-as-a-baby Accidental with an SSN - who has received the money into a Transferwise account after submitting the non-filer form. So apparently that works.


----------



## Mdabag

CURTGS said:


> According to some recent posts on Reddit and elsewhere, it does now appear that the Get My Payment torture tool is functional for many of us filing from abroad with foreign addresses. I couldn't be happier, because they fixed their COBOL gizmo just in time for its utility to be rendered useless for my purposes, as I received a paper check in the mail here on May 7, exactly the eventuality I meant to avoid by logging in to the tool to provide my direct deposit info. Unfortunately, that proved consistently impossible until maybe it recently wasn't, but by then it was too late. Good luck.


Now that Get My Payment is working, I was able to log in and it said that my check was mailed on May 1st. I live in Dubai, UAE. The address system is not very developed here and i'm planning on moving within the next 2 weeks. Do they actually mail the check over seas? I simply don't understand why they couldn't give us the chance to add bank details for them to direct deposit as I have a US bank account. It's almost like they deliberately don't want us to receive the checks!


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## the_mighty_tim

I too have been able to log in to Get My Payment and my cheque is due to be mailed out on May 15. Quite when it will reach me here in the UK is anyone's guess. Then I have to figure out how to actually cash the thing!

But at least it's potentially on the way!


----------



## byline

Unbelievably (at least, to me), my cheque arrived today. For the full amount. There are some U.S. organizations needing donations, and I am only too happy to oblige with this little windfall.


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## Booth44

Just for fun I applied for a stimulus cheque/check today through IRS "get my payment".

Process was unnervingly simple. I got a message that my check was to be issued on May 1, similar to Mdabag's post above.

Accepted my Canadian address and postal code with no problem.

Didn't ask for any direct deposit info, which is unfortunate as I could use some more cash in my BoA account. I'm sure I have no direct deposit info on file with IRS.

Have faithfully filed 1040s every year (but not yet for 2019).

Will consider the $1,200 as reparations for time spent complying with tax and FBAR requirements.

May take a picture of the check and frame it.

Promise to support American companies...by mail order if necessary...lord knows I can't cross the border right now (well....I could get into the US no problem...just not back into Canada...)


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## Booth44

At the risk of replying to my own post from less than 24 hours ago....lo and behold my stimulus check appeared in the mail today after applying for it 14 hours earlier!?! 

Anyone else heard of this happening? I'm 99.99999% sure I didn't apply before last night.


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## Moulard

Fully explainable...

Firstly, You don't have to apply for it per se (unless you did not meet the filing threshold - but that doesn't use the Get My Payment portal)

What will happened is that the IRS had your address, and was able to verify eligibility for the payment.

There probably was a very small window of opportunity between then and the scheduling of check production... which you will have missed.

Its even possible that there was never actually a window of opportunity, as it appears the printing of checks has been faster than the loading of foreign addresses into the portal.

Once the check is sent for printing you cannot add your banking details.

Which is why there was a check mail date when you finally logged in and you were not able to enter banking details.


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## Booth44

Thanks kindly for the explanation!


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## Nononymous

To reiterate, for the benefit of others. Cheques are automatic for those who have been filing and qualify (AGI under $75k and not filing jointly with NRA spouse). The "Get my payment" tool exists only to verify mailing address or enter direct deposit information - it's not an application.

If one has not been filing, either because of low income or plain old non-compliance, the "non-filer form" can be used to apply for the cheque. On this form one enters an address and direct deposit information for a US bank account (Transferwise is an easy option for non-residents).


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## the_mighty_tim

According to Get My Payment, both mine and my brother's cheques were posted on May 15.

His arrived today. Mine did not


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## Julukaman

hello everyone. quick set of questions to anyone living in France who has received the check. Is it possible to cash the check in a French bank? Are there any pitfalls to going to a French Bank? ( especially if one has never indicated to one's French bank one's dual citizenship....  

alternatively can one send the check to ones USA account, given that while the name is correct the address is likely to confuse the US bank who would have a US address as address of record..... ? thanks !!


----------



## Bevdeforges

Julukaman said:


> hello everyone. quick set of questions to anyone living in France who has received the check. Is it possible to cash the check in a French bank? Are there any pitfalls to going to a French Bank? ( especially if one has never indicated to one's French bank one's dual citizenship....
> 
> alternatively can one send the check to ones USA account, given that while the name is correct the address is likely to confuse the US bank who would have a US address as address of record..... ? thanks !!


The "risk" in trying to process your US $ check through your French bank is that the procedure takes "several" weeks (if not a few months) at the best of times and may turn out to be rather expensive. There is no international check clearing facility so it depends on working through affiliated banks (each with their fee).

It is a much safer approach to just send the check to your US bank. Endorse it "For deposit only" and if you don't have any deposit slips, just include a cover letter asking them to deposit it to you account (and give your account number for reference if you don't indicate the account number as part of the endorsement). I've never had any problem depositing a check in this manner, even when the check was issued to me at a friend's address.


----------



## Julukaman

Thanks Bev, i'll try the US bank, as always great feedback! 

i do have a related question for everyone: does anyone have a low cost way of moving money from US account to Europe? i have tried every combination under the sun, using Revolut and Transferwise but keep on running into charges. has anyone a great way of doing it? 

best


----------



## Carmonli

I'll add my question to this thread instead of starting another one and hopefully someone can advise.

If I understand correctly, people who have not received their stimulus payments will be able to claim the amount as a credit in 2020. But what about all of those people who, for example, didn't/don't file because their only income is Social Security? They won't have to file in 2020 either (and won't owe taxes). Or anyone else who does file but whose income is low and never actually owes anything? What is supposed to happen to the stimulus payment then? 

I'm asking because I and my 2 adult children are still waiting for our checks here in Israel. Payment was supposed to have been sent on May 1. Some people here whose checks were sent on May 8 or May 15 have received them. But none of the checks sent out on May 1 have arrived - mail service to Israel was resumed only on May 8. I'm trying to be cautiously optimistic, since two of the three of us have received "the letters" that says the payment was made. But I was wondering about what will happen to the credit for the non-tax paying expats.


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## Moulard

I do believe that they are sending informations letters under separate cover. I can only suppose that letter will include instructions on what to do if you did not receive a check (to address the issue of the checks being intercepted I suspect).

At this point it is probably too early to know how they will handle checks that are returned to them as undeliverable (in which case the letter is likely to end up in the same boat).

I suspect the fallback position for anyone who is eligible but did not receive the payment may be to file for the 2020 year even if not required to. Just because you are not require to file, does not mean that you cannot file.


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## Carmonli

I just looked at the letter and it says nothing about what to do if you don't receive the payment. There's just a link to the IRS website or a phone number to call for more information.

Can you get a refund to a non-US bank account? Or does the IRS send out refund checks? I've never gotten a refund (nor paid taxes), so I wouldn't know.


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## Bevdeforges

First of all I would give it a couple (maybe even "a few") more weeks. I just recently received a letter from a financial institution in the US and it took a full month to arrive in France. So, given that your checks were supposed to have been sent May 1st, I'd wait until mid June before getting anxious. 

There is another complication I've just recently seen in an article in the newspaper. Apparently the IRS is starting now to send out the payments in the form of prepaid debit cards - and they are mailed from a private company in rather anonymous looking envelopes. Quite a few people report that they have thrown them away on receipt as there is nothing to indicate what they are or who they are from except a letter included in the mailing. (Which, of course, has no "official" style letterhead.) https://www.aarp.org/money/taxes/info-2020/stimulus-payment-debit-cards.html



> Can you get a refund to a non-US bank account? Or does the IRS send out refund checks?


Basically, no. If you don't give the IRS a US bank account number (with routing number) they will send you a check. (A US check, in fact.) Those can be expensive and slow to cash unless you have a US bank account where you can deposit it (by mailing it back to the bank and asking them to deposit it in your account).


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## Cala di Luna

Julukaman said:


> [...] does anyone have a low cost way of moving money from US account to Europe? i have tried every combination under the sun, using Revolut and Transferwise but keep on running into charges. [...]


I haven't tried it, but my Transferwise "*borderless* account" comes with account number and *ACH Routing Number*, wouldn't that be enough for requesting a "local" ACH credit transfer from any US account (as opposed to expensive international wire transfer)?


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## Cala di Luna

I understand that the coronavirus stimulus payment is not taxable in the US, but what about accidental americans filing taxes in Italy, France, or Germany?


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## Bevdeforges

Cala di Luna said:


> I haven't tried it, but my Transferwise "*borderless* account" comes with account number and *ACH Routing Number*, wouldn't that be enough for requesting a "local" ACH credit transfer from any US account (as opposed to expensive international wire transfer)?


For receiving funds in US dollars, the borderless account works just fine with the ACH credit transfer. However, if you need to convert those funds from US $ to Euros or pounds, there will be a a fee.


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## Nononymous

Cala di Luna said:


> I understand that the coronavirus stimulus payment is not taxable in the US, but what about accidental americans filing taxes in Italy, France, or Germany?


To your earlier question, yes, you can easily receive the stimulus payment directly to your Transferwise account. 

As to whether the payment is taxable in your country of residence, it's not income as such but an advance on a tax credit for 2020. Would that be taxable where you live? Who knows. This leaves you three options:

1. Decide that it is taxable as "other income" in some form, declare it and pay tax on it. The authorities will happily take your money without asking questions.

2. Decide that it is not taxable and fail to declare it or pay tax on it. The authorities won't know about it so won't ask any questions.

3. Ask the authorities for a ruling. 

The key point here is in option #2 - the tax authorities in your country of residence will have no record of the payment being received. Much like the IRS has no record of income earned abroad by expats and Accidental Americans, which is why they don't get fussed about the fact that 90 percent of them never file.


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## Moulard

Cala di Luna said:


> I understand that the coronavirus stimulus payment is not taxable in the US, but what about accidental americans filing taxes in Italy, France, or Germany?


This is a really interesting question that will keep international tax experts and the competent authorities busy for years. 

Long and the short of it ... it is not clear. I suspect foreign tax authorities will want to treat it as income, but whether or not they can, will depend a lot on a combination of factors, including the existence of any tax treaty, whether you are a dual national, and your residency status in both countries.

Here is my rather biased take on it...

Under US law it is a tax credit. The standard US model treaty both allows it to tax its citizens as if the treaty was not in effect, and at the same time allow a tax credit for foreign income according to US law. Thus really no different to any other refundable tax credit provided under US law that can result in a net payment to the taxpayer... think for example the child tax credit. That in this case, it will result in a payment does not change the characteristic of the payment into income no more than any other tax refund does. 

Of course a foreign government may want to consider it "other income" or perhaps a "social welfare type payment" and want to tax it. But given most countries rely on a level of self assessment, they would have to rely on the mutual exchange clause of the treaty to find out if whether you received a full payment, a part payment or no payment at all.

The treaty allows a person eligible for treaty benefits to go to the competent authorities if they believe that one party to the treaty is not complying with the terms of the treaty agreement. That route of course may take years to resolve one way or the other.


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## Nononymous

For what it's worth, I've never heard of anyone claiming the child tax credit then declaring that money as income in their country of residence. Which isn't to say that it doesn't happen, only that I've never seen it mentioned.

And as a practical matter, reporting that payment to another country's tax authorities would be voluntary.


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## Moulard

Nononymous said:


> For what it's worth, I've never heard of anyone claiming the child tax credit then declaring that money as income in their country of residence.


That was part of my point. Its a tax credit. It is not income. Just because the tax credit exceeds the normal tax due does not magically turn it into income.


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## Nononymous

Moulard said:


> That was part of my point. Its a tax credit. It is not income. Just because the tax credit exceeds the normal tax due does not magically turn it into income.


Agreed. And presumably the same logic applies to the stimulus benefit, then.


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## Moulard

Section 2201 of the CARES Act (the section that covers rebates and other individual provisions) amends chapter 65 of Title 26 (The IRC) . Chapter 65 covers the administrative rules around Abatements, Credits and Refunds. - Thus it is a tax credit.

The Act could very well have been written to amend, say Chapter 7 or 7a of Title 42 (and thus be deemed a social welfare payment -- even if it was paid out by way of a tax credit)

It wasn't, so it isn't.


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## the_mighty_tim

the_mighty_tim said:


> According to Get My Payment, both mine and my brother's cheques were posted on May 15.
> 
> His arrived today. Mine did not


An update:

My cheque actually arrived the day after my brother's. I paid it in last week into my UK GBP account and it was credited today, minus a small administrative fee. The USD to GBP exchange rate was suboptimal but at least it's gone through.


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## frexpat1

Scenario:

American spouse died 2 years ago, SSN-holding green card holder foreign wife sent back the green card formally through the process last year and filed taxes last year (for 2018) for a very last time. Both had been living abroad for many years.

Received the IRS tax letter saying a cheque is on the way. Clearly aware the American spouse died because it was addressed to the foreign former green card holder wide and American spouse but with deceased next to the American spouse name.

Is the wife entitled to the cheque when it comes due to last year still filing for taxes and having a green card until last year (despite having moved away from the US many years ago) or must it be posted back? 

Thanks!


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## Bevdeforges

They've just recently come out in the US with some statistic saying how many deceased people they sent checks to. 

It looks like the wife may be able to keep her part of the payment (i.e. if they sent $2400 for both of them). Anyhow, here are two sources on what "should" be done:

https://www.irs.gov/coronavirus/economic-impact-payment-information-center (see Q 12)

https://www.aarp.org/money/taxes/info-2020/stimulus-check-in-deceased-name.html

I leave it up to you how to handle the situation. (I'd be seriously tempted to deposit the check and just wait for further instructions.)


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## frexpat1

The second link there implies that there is no legal obligation to return it? They obviously knew he was deceased given they wrote it on the letter.

What about the fact that the spouse is now a non resident, non citizen non green card holding person, following last year's final IRS fiing and green card return?


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## Bevdeforges

frexpat1 said:


> The second link there implies that there is no legal obligation to return it? They obviously knew he was deceased given they wrote it on the letter.
> 
> What about the fact that the spouse is now a non resident, non citizen non green card holding person, following last year's final IRS fiing and green card return?


I wouldn't worry about the spouse's current status. They sent out payments to lots of folks who filed 2018 returns and have changed status in other ways since then. If they want the money back, they'll be in touch - though it's highly doubtful they'll bother trying to collect any overages from overseas. Maybe avoid spending it for a few months, just in case. But I'm betting they'll have to let it all go.


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## frexpat1

Bevdeforges said:


> frexpat1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The second link there implies that there is no legal obligation to return it? They obviously knew he was deceased given they wrote it on the letter.
> 
> What about the fact that the spouse is now a non resident, non citizen non green card holding person, following last year's final IRS fiing and green card return?
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't worry about the spouse's current status. They sent out payments to lots of folks who filed 2018 returns and have changed status in other ways since then. If they want the money back, they'll be in touch - though it's highly doubtful they'll bother trying to collect any overages from overseas. Maybe avoid spending it for a few months, just in case. But I'm betting they'll have to let it all go.
Click to expand...

Thanks. That person, the non American wife, is quite nervous about potentially creating any alerts or issues, so we just want to make sure it's all legal.

You say it's likely to not be an issue and I do understand that, but in both points, the deceased spouse and her status, what's the legal position?

It sounds like even though the IRS wants the money of deceased people back, the legal position in the cares act is that it's a request rather than a legal must, is that right? 

And what about her own position, is she legally eligible given she was a normal tax payer for 2018?

Thanks!


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## Bevdeforges

If she was a US taxpayer in 2018, then it appears she is well within her rights to keep her payment ($1200) at least. The payments are being made quite openly to taxpayers living overseas. As far as I can tell, that was the qualification for making the payment in the law that authorized the payments. (As well as US SS recipients, even if they didn't file tax returns in 2018 or 2019.) 

A friend of mine is an "accidental" - born while her parents were living in the US - and she just happened to have filed streamlined to get dispensation for not having filed at all the last many years since she moved back to Europe as a child. She contacted me to ask why she had received a check for $1200 out of the blue like that. 

I've seen some articles that imply that this payment is some sort of tax "advance" and that amounts paid out in error will be recouped in the 2020 tax filings. But I've also seen other reports denying this. Things are confused enough over there that I'm not sure anyone really knows what is "supposed" to be happening.


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## Nononymous

It sounds as though the widow is entitled to keep her $1200, but probably not keep the deceased husband's $1200.

As a practical matter, if she has a nervous disposition and doesn't need the money, any amount might be more trouble than it's worth. Conversely, someone of a more larcenous nature might enjoy the full amount, given that any attempts to collect overpayment from abroad are likely to fizzle.


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## frexpat1

Nononymous said:


> It sounds as though the widow is entitled to keep her $1200, but probably not keep the deceased husband's $1200.
> 
> As a practical matter, if she has a nervous disposition and doesn't need the money, any amount might be more trouble than it's worth. Conversely, someone of a more larcenous nature might enjoy the full amount, given that any attempts to collect overpayment from abroad are likely to fizzle.


So are we saying there is a legal obligation to return the half of the deceased spouse? Or is it just a request rather than mandated in law? 

The cheque arrived this week so we're trying to figure out what to do. I guess it'd be complicated to return and ask for half only.


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## Bevdeforges

frexpat1 said:


> So are we saying there is a legal obligation to return the half of the deceased spouse? Or is it just a request rather than mandated in law?
> 
> The cheque arrived this week so we're trying to figure out what to do. I guess it'd be complicated to return and ask for half only.


Personally, I'd deposit the whole check and just wait for further instructions. Just don't spend up the deceased spouse's $1200 so that, if asked, she could return the money. If she hears nothing by next tax season (say, April or so of 2021), then spend it in good health.


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## Nononymous

Bevdeforges said:


> Personally, I'd deposit the whole check and just wait for further instructions. Just don't spend up the deceased spouse's $1200 so that, if asked, she could return the money. If she hears nothing by next tax season (say, April or so of 2021), then spend it in good health.


Wise counsel. If they want it back, they'll ask for it.


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## frexpat1

Is there any risk of this causing them to dig in previous returns? That's her main worry, thay they'll start to look for errors or issues elsewhere if she is now on the radar for depositing the cheque.


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## Bevdeforges

frexpat1 said:


> Is there any risk of this causing them to dig in previous returns? That's her main worry, thay they'll start to look for errors or issues elsewhere if she is now on the radar for depositing the cheque.


Seriously, they have far bigger fish to fry. The payment was limited to those making less than a cap amount which is a pittance for tax evasion. Don't forget the IRS is understaffed, under funded (and probably also under loved).


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## Nononymous

frexpat1 said:


> Is there any risk of this causing them to dig in previous returns? That's her main worry, thay they'll start to look for errors or issues elsewhere if she is now on the radar for depositing the cheque.


So what if they did? Does she have US assets, or pension? If not, mail from the IRS is perfect for lining birdcages.

PS They won't dig into previous returns.


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## Amsterdeco

It didn't occur to me that I would be eligible for a stimulus payment but reading through this thread I clearly fit the criteria. However when I use the "Get My Payment" website it says that Payment Status is Not Available. Does anyone else have this issue?

Is it because I mailed in both my 2018 and 2019 returns?


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## Amsterdeco

I should add that my filing status is Married Filling Separate as my husband is a NRA so doesn't have a SSN or ITIN


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## Nononymous

The "where's my money?" tool is notoriously unreliable with non-US addresses. Try different combinations and permutations, and apparently using all caps sometimes helps.

People are still reporting the arrival of cheques so it's probably still on its way.


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## Amsterdeco

OK - I'm still not managing to get the tool to work but hopefully the cheque is coming anyway!


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