# So, just how bureaucratic is France?



## Tricky Dicky

All I ever read on forums is people moaning about what seems a never ending mountain of bureaucracy having to be dealt with on a virtual daily basis.

Is this just the usual fall back position of expats? Surely, once you have got over the initial hurdles regarding residency, securing a home and accessing services, that’s it.

We’ve had all the same ‘problems’ to get over after moving to Greece, but apart from the occasional bump in the road, we just get on with our lives.

I find it hard to believe France is ahead of Greece when it comes to bureaucracy.


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## bhamham

I don't find it any more bureaucratic in France than when I emigrated to the UK from the US in 2006. At least France has reciprocal agreements with some states on drivers license exchanges. I had to take the driving test in the UK. Getting a bank acct in the UK was a bit easier, but finding a house to rent was as difficult as here. Getting health care in the UK was bureaucratic as was immigration. And, I went on to UK citizenship which was extremely bureaucratic. Frankly, I think most of the moaning is from english speakers who have difficulty with the French language - which I'm guilty of sometimes!


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## Bevdeforges

Bureaucracy tends to be "in the eye of the beholder." Any sort of administrative process you don't understand or that you get fouled up in can be considered "excess bureaucracy" - and to be honest, I think that's most of what expats run into. You're dealing with a strange language, new and different customs and courtesies and a legal system that can be extremely different from what you were raised with or have been living in for the last several years. There are simply lots more things that one must register for, validate or have the proper paperwork for. But, thanks in part to the Plague, lots more of that stuff is going online.

And, at least in France, the processes for foreigners tend to change fairly frequently - especially now with the pandemic, travel restrictions (at least at the borders) and an upcoming presidential election where "immigration" seems to have become the "issue du jour" even though there are far bigger fish to fry according to most folks I know. Add to that, changes in policy and procedure don't always filter down to the local offices promptly, so just because you read it somewhere in "the news" doesn't mean that the local prefecture will have implemented the procedure when you go in for your appointment. There are also different responsibilities and expectations of different government offices. People here are very reliant on their local mairie for information and support and it can take a while for a newcomer to cultivate that sort of relationship.

The other big thing is the attitude with which you approach the bureaucracy. Certain nationalities seem to favor the "you are a civil servant and I pay your salary" approach, which will cause you much pain and aggravation here in France. Part of the assimilation process is learning to grovel a bit when faced with what appears to be a bureaucratic roadblock. (Also called the "ask questions rather than making demands" approach.) And most of all, learn the local language and use it until or unless the person you are dealing with offers to speak English with you.


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## BackinFrance

I think the French complain as much about the paperasse as expats, possibly more, and that too is in part cultural. But France is a country where you have to retain all sorts of documentation for many years, not infrequently for life. Whilst you can now access most of it online, most often the online documents are only available for the minimum legal retention period.


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## Bevdeforges

I'm glad you're the one who admitted that the French complain as much as anyone else about the "bureaucracy" here. But again, I think lots of the complaints arise primarily when someone has been "caught short" with a procedure or document they are/were unfamiliar with. I have to say that, ever since I got my carte d'identité here, the prospect of dealing with the Administration for much of anything is far less "challenging." Probably as much my attitude as anything else, but a friend of mine finally got her French nationality by marriage because she got tired of having people "roll their eyes" every time she presented her carte de séjour when asked for her carte d'identité. (Though, until fairly recently, the cards were virtually identical in all but the title printed on the card.)


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## Franco-Belgian Brit

Bevdeforges said:


> ...Any sort of administrative process you don't understand or that you get fouled up in can be considered "excess bureaucracy" - and to be honest, I think that's most of what expats run into.


Belgium seems bureaucratic to Brits but it seems to be those who "fight" against it who moan most. Once registered, your ID card does virtually everything you want.

If you want to hide and be anonymous, then best return home!

The thing is, in countries which appear "bureaucratic" the info that is stored comes in very useful later on. Had the UK been "bureaucratic, then maybe things like the Windrush scandal would never have raised its head.



BackinFrance said:


> ... France is a country where you have to retain all sorts of documentation for many years, not infrequently for life.


Many countries are like that, most certainly Belgium and NL.


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## vianina

Tricky Dicky said:


> All I ever read on forums is people moaning about what seems a never ending mountain of bureaucracy having to be dealt with on a virtual daily basis.
> 
> Is this just the usual fall back position of expats? Surely, once you have got over the initial hurdles regarding residency, securing a home and accessing services, that’s it.
> 
> We’ve had all the same ‘problems’ to get over after moving to Greece, but apart from the occasional bump in the road, we just get on with our lives.
> 
> I find it hard to believe France is ahead of Greece when it comes to bureaucracy.


But then, why ask people on a forum? It looks as though you don’t think much of their opinions.


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## Crabtree

Te trick with French bureaucracy is to get it right at the start So many Brit expats tried to cut corners and duck and dive but it nearly always caught up with them in the end as can be seen with the Brexit debacle.Bev is right when it comes to dealing with fonctionnaires.You need to join in the ritual dance make an effort with your French and they will actually enjoy helping you out .
This site is your bible www.service-public.fr


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## Tricky Dicky

vianina said:


> But then, why ask people on a forum? It looks as though you don’t think much of their opinions.


To try and determine whether the ‘moaning’ is, indeed, justified or just the preserve of a few forum posters. Obviously some are predisposed to bear down on just about any subject.

I’m just trying to sort the wheat from the chaff.


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## BackinFrance

Crabtree said:


> Te trick with French bureaucracy is to get it right at the start So many Brit expats tried to cut corners and duck and dive but it nearly always caught up with them in the end as can be seen with the Brexit debacle.Bev is right when it comes to dealing with fonctionnaires.You need to join in the ritual dance make an effort with your French and they will actually enjoy helping you out .
> This site is your bible www.service-public.fr


It's not a ritual dance with the fonctionnaires, it's a matter of being polite in the French manner and of treating them like human beings. I doubt very much that anyone here will end up dealing with a high level fonctionnaire, those they will deal with have a difficult and highly constrained job to do and do not have all the answers to the myriad questions people ask.


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## conky2

Tricky Dicky said:


> To try and determine whether the ‘moaning’ is, indeed, justified or just the preserve of a few forum posters. Obviously some are predisposed to bear down on just about any subject.
> 
> I’m just trying to sort the wheat from the chaff.


So what exactly is the point of your enquiry ? Are you looking to move to France, or are you just writing a thesis on red tape and bureaucracy when moving from one country to another ?

If the level of bureaucracy is going to determine whether you move or not , you may as well stay put.


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## ko12

Many countries have challenging bureaucracies; I have experienced USA, Indian, and Spanish as among the worst along with many others. I think the secret is to be well prepared, like the young woman in the magnificent short (3.42 minute) film in Spanish but with English sub-titles '036' (an all important form, not unlike the P237 here. She is in the local Ayuntamiento, applying for the status of (approx.) autoentrepreneur. It has been around since 2011, but now in HD:


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## jweihl

I imagine the degree to which you find any place to be more (or less) bureaucratic depends on where you come from. Additionally, one would expect that as a foreign resident ANYWHERE you'd encounter more than the typical amount of bureaucracy than a normal citizen would. That said, compared to the US, I would say that France is quite a bit more bureaucratic in some ways. Any process that requires any scrutiny or approval definitely takes longer than it would in the US. Opening a bank account is more convoluted and takes longer for sure. I've noticed WAY more use of rubber stamps here than in the US. However, I wouldn't say that any of the bureaucracy I've encountered is particularly nonsensical or overly maddening. It's just the slow pace that's the biggest difference. I would generally give high marks to those on the other side of the "guichet" for being generally helpful and patient.


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## SPGW

Another thought is that as life gets more complicated - marriage, children, property…. bureaucracy increases wherever you happen to live, and if you also move while accumulating life’s baggage, it is further complicated when you aren’t used to the new ways of doing things. At least, that’s my experience. Moving to the US, it was astounding to find that most people paid an accountant to do their tax return ( or used a CD Rom guide). Immigration in the US is one of the trickiest bureaucratic processes I’ve ever come across. Moving back to the UK, I couldn’t open a bank account without support from my employer as if had been recruited as a non-National. Death duties, inheritance tax and the probate process is horrendous in the UK (6 weeks full time job filling IN forms…) or maybe my situation was just complex.
In comparison, no, I don’t find France particularly bureaucratic. Certain processes when dealing with officialdom in France, are extremely simple and efficient - like getting a passport, paying speeding fines 😊, paying any penalties for that matter, like overdue tax😁….in fact, they make it so simple when the government needs your cash.
it’s just what it is and it’s different in each country.


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## Franco-Belgian Brit

SPGW said:


> ...Moving back to the UK, I couldn’t open a bank account without support from my employer as if had been recruited as a non-National. Death duties, inheritance tax and the probate process is horrendous in the UK (6 weeks full time job filling IN forms…) or maybe my situation was just complex.


We moved back to the UK for a 4 year period in 1998. I couldn't open a bank account. I had to prove residency for at least a year. I had a contract and set up a LTD Company as a vehicle for this. I was in a position where I couldn't get paid. I pleaded with Lloyds as I used to work for them, but no. Luckily for me, I had an old friend who had become a senior manager in the Bank of Wales and he sorted me out. This became the Bank of Scotland after a takeover and we have hung on to our accounts there ever since (handy for my UK pension).

I was also refuse a mobile phone contract as they wanted residency for THREE years. I asked what the credit risk was and they said £500. I offered to pay £2k up front, but "the computer said 'no'". I took a pay-and-go one. When I wanted to replace it, the manager of the store asked my why I didn't want a contract. I explained. He asked me if I didn't mind a small white lie. He said, on the form, just say you've been here 3 years. They don't check it and, in reality, they couldn't very easily. Bang! Contract approved.

In Belgium, you just hand over your ID card and bingo! 

As for the probate process, I agree. A nightmare that took several months to sort out. And it was a fairly easy one apart from the discovery of a few investments we never knew about.


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## Befuddled

From reading the posts above it would seem bureaucracy in France is never the same experience for one and all. Those with a good handle on the language and well-developed personal skills might get on just fine. Those without these assets are finding it an uphill struggle getting over even the simplest problems. Two things that bug me the most are that everyone is meant to store masses of paperwork (as mentioned above) and there are even websites devoted to explaining what to save and how long to keep it. So new arrivals are advised to buy a large filing cabinet if you are intending to stay more than a year. The second and most annoying thing is that when you hit a snag and have a face to face with a fonctionnaire you often have a battle on your hands. If your problem is not in the manual, you get the famous "French shrug" and the shutter comes down. They rarely seem willing or able to think outside the box to solve a problem. Getting to the end result almost always involves weeks or months of form filling on top of more form filling and documents being lost or supposedly not received, etc. I have even been told I have sent the wrong form, when that form was sent to me *by them*. Then of course it is common knowledge that although the rules, regs, and procedures are edicts sent down from higher government level, they are often subject to misunderstanding and interpretation as they trickle down the layers of bureaucracy. How many times over the last 20 years have I read (on forums) about people having met a brick wall in one office being told to try a different one in a different location or even the same office on a different day in order to achieve success. Surely this can't be a healthy situation.


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## Bevdeforges

Befuddled said:


> If your problem is not in the manual, you get the famous "French shrug" and the shutter comes down.


OK, I'll grant you that in France it really really helps if you fit in one of the pigeonholes. If you have an "unusual" situation it can be extremely frustrating. But the same holds true in any number of large (bureaucratic) cities in the US - I'm thinking specifically of Chicago here where I have a little bit of experience. Civil servants/fonctionnaires are paid to follow the procedure they've been trained in. If you don't fit the general pattern, you mess up the system and you'd better be adept at "negotiating" with the civil servant you're dealing with. 

France may be a bit more "bureaucratic" than some places, simply because there seem to be more rules and regulations with fairly strict procedures attached. But as others have said here, many French people (native born ones, even) will go out of their ways to avoid having interactions with the Administration if they can. And, at the same time, something like 85% of the French would just LOVE for their kids to get themselves nice, "safe" public service jobs - or at least that was the case a few years back - even though the jobs aren't well paid. But they have - or "had" - "job security" and a secure pension.

But just put yourself in the place of a newcomer to the US or UK faced with a new language and a totally unfamiliar bureaucratic system.


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## Tricky Dicky

conky2 said:


> So what exactly is the point of your enquiry ? Are you looking to move to France, or are you just writing a thesis on red tape and bureaucracy when moving from one country to another ?
> 
> If the level of bureaucracy is going to determine whether you move or not , you may as well stay put.


Not really. It’s just to test the waters. It seems no matter which country you look into there are always a fair number of moany old expats warning of impending doom if you venture in.


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## bhamham

I try to keep my paper file cabinet to a minimum by scanning most documents. I keep originals that I think are important like signed documents. Massive hard drives are pretty cheap now to store and back-up important files. I don't use a cloud.


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## vianina

Tricky Dicky said:


> Not really. It’s just to test the waters. It seems no matter which country you look into there are always a fair number of moany old expats warning of impending doom if you venture in.


There you go again. It sounds like you are approaching the question with your mind already made up. So, if, instead of eagerly trying to display my integration credentials, I tell you that, although my French is near-native standard, I hate dealing with the bureaucracy because more often than not you have to drive two hours to get to whatever faceless office it is and they'll ask you for a proof-of-something-irrelevant that wasn't on the list, does that fall into the "moany expat" category? Old, well at least that part is objective.


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## Tricky Dicky

I’m sorry, I wasn’t aiming at anyone in particular, it just seems that wherever there is Brit expat community the associated forums seem to be over populated by the doom and gloom merchants. It’s the same here in Greece. I’m embroiled in some bureaucratic nonsense at the moment - turn up and told to come back tomorrow because Aki is upstairs! Somebody deciding, legally, to build right next to my home. And I mean right next - they’ve actually attached their house to mine! So, it’s not as if France would be a huge eye opener for me, just asking how it is.


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## SPGW

Since I was browsing the forum, on the old question of French bureacracy I would add:
a) it helps to learn the language,
b) never go to a govt institution expecting to come away first time with what you went for (substitute that for website, too), and,
c) it is never as bad as Nigeria (fantastic country as it is, in many other ways).


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## Bevdeforges

Roger that - especially point b). I once established a "standard" for myself - anything I could do with three or fewer visits to the relevant government office was considered a huge success. Then I started managing these things in two visits. Once you acknowledge that it's sort of a game, it becomes almost fun to try breaking your previous records.


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## mrs canoe

Befuddled said:


> From reading the posts above it would seem bureaucracy in France is never the same experience for one and all. Those with a good handle on the language and well-developed personal skills might get on just fine. Those without these assets are finding it an uphill struggle getting over even the simplest problems. Two things that bug me the most are that everyone is meant to store masses of paperwork (as mentioned above) and there are even websites devoted to explaining what to save and how long to keep it. So new arrivals are advised to buy a large filing cabinet if you are intending to stay more than a year. The second and most annoying thing is that when you hit a snag and have a face to face with a fonctionnaire you often have a battle on your hands. If your problem is not in the manual, you get the famous "French shrug" and the shutter comes down. They rarely seem willing or able to think outside the box to solve a problem. Getting to the end result almost always involves weeks or months of form filling on top of more form filling and documents being lost or supposedly not received, etc. I have even been told I have sent the wrong form, when that form was sent to me *by them*. Then of course it is common knowledge that although the rules, regs, and procedures are edicts sent down from higher government level, they are often subject to misunderstanding and interpretation as they trickle down the layers of bureaucracy. How many times over the last 20 years have I read (on forums) about people having met a brick wall in one office being told to try a different one in a different location or even the same office on a different day in order to achieve success. Surely this can't be a healthy situation.


I was just thinking about this subject again, re, what paperwork needs to be saved. Do you have a link for the site you have referenced?

"Two things that bug me the most are that everyone is meant to store masses of paperwork (as mentioned above) and there are even websites devoted to explaining what to save and how long to keep it. So new arrivals are advised to buy a large filing cabinet if you are intending to stay more than a year."

Or if anyone else can recommend what needs to be saved-- utility bills? Bank statements? 😊 Thanks!!


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## Bevdeforges

Don't get too anxious about retention requirements here in France. The major "hang onto this stuff forever" documents tend to relate to employment records - like payslips, which I don't think you have to worry about. (I seem to recall that you're retired.) And even those really only need to be held onto until after you're receiving any French pension you are entitled to. (There is barely anyone who has worked in France who doesn't have to clear up a few discrepancies in their records come time to claim their pensions.)

Anyhow - Service Public to the rescue (again): Papiers à conserver
Happy reading!


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## BackinFrance

Bevdeforges said:


> Don't get too anxious about retention requirements here in France. The major "hang onto this stuff forever" documents tend to relate to employment records - like payslips, which I don't think you have to worry about. (I seem to recall that you're retired.) And even those really only need to be held onto until after you're receiving any French pension you are entitled to. (There is barely anyone who has worked in France who doesn't have to clear up a few discrepancies in their records come time to claim their pensions.)
> 
> Anyhow - Service Public to the rescue (again): Papiers à econserver
> Happy reading!ec


That talks about minimum 6 ntion times. There are a few documents that you should keep longer, eg a CNF. I did recently get rid oef utility bills more than 6 years old, though they mtade interesting reading.
I would say that death of a family member can result in all sorts of problems and that keeping bank aangstatements longer than the minimum retention time can turn out to be a good idea. Also paperwork relating to a tutelage and changes in civil status generally because things can come back to haunt you or yours.


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## vianina

Tricky Dicky said:


> I’m sorry, I wasn’t aiming at anyone in particular, it just seems that wherever there is Brit expat community the associated forums seem to be over populated by the doom and gloom merchants. It’s the same here in Greece. I’m embroiled in some bureaucratic nonsense at the moment - turn up and told to come back tomorrow because Aki is upstairs! Somebody deciding, legally, to build right next to my home. And I mean right next - they’ve actually attached their house to mine! So, it’s not as if France would be a huge eye opener for me, just asking how it is.


If your house was built right up to the boundary, I suspect that could happen in France too.
Just yesterday, in the Préfecture, I saw a woman (of African origin) turned away with a surly snap because she had the temerity to try to submit a DCEM application in person rather than online. Out of curiosity, I’ve just checked the Préfecture website, and it doesn’t tell you to submit it online, nor give any indication how that could be done. I don’t know how far that woman had travelled but for us it was close to 100km. 
We ended up dealing with the same official and I was expecting problems, but she was all deferential with us on this occasion. I hadn’t slept all that well the night before, though, in anticipation, and had spent 3 weeks collecting the paperwork; prior to that, I’d spent about 2 weeks checking the website many times a day to see if the “no appointments available” message would ever change.
Hope that helps to give you an idea. It’s doable, of course, but you’d need to really love the place for it not to leave a sour taste.


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