# Lake Chapala Equal to Little Havana



## PanamaJack (Apr 1, 2013)

Last night I had dinner with friends (Mexican) who live in the Lake Chapala area specifically in Jocotepec. We started to discuss expats and both of them mentioned that expats they have run into (they do not operate a business related to tourism) do not for the most part speak spanish. Jose Antonio compared the area to Little Havana in Miami, where most people can live there without needing to speak English. I tried to explain that a large number of expats there are retirees that arrived at the age of 55 or above and learning a second language was difficult at best and close to impossible for many. Is that a correct assumption on my part? Do expats find it hard to communicate in Spanish? Or do they not want to learn the language? Since I am a citizen of both the U.S. and Mexico thanks to the 35 years of living here I am not sure do expats need rudimentary spanish to be residents? or citizens?


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## mickisue1 (Mar 10, 2012)

Not yet living in MX, but having visited several times, as well as other countries where English is not the language (I have a daughter who plans to live the rest of her life in Italy), for me, it's important to at least TRY to learn the language of the land where I find myself.

Will I ever be as fluent as a native speaker? Heck, no. But, just as I appreciate the efforts of immigrants to this country to learn our language, I believe that people in other countries will be more likely to appreciate my presence if I at least make a concerted effort.


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## PanamaJack (Apr 1, 2013)

mickisue1 said:


> Not yet living in MX, but having visited several times, as well as other countries where English is not the language (I have a daughter who plans to live the rest of her life in Italy), for me, it's important to at least TRY to learn the language of the land where I find myself.
> 
> Will I ever be as fluent as a native speaker? Heck, no. But, just as I appreciate the efforts of immigrants to this country to learn our language, I believe that people in other countries will be more likely to appreciate my presence if I at least make a concerted effort.


I agree unless it is just impossible for someone after a good try.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

PanamaJack said:


> I agree unless it is just impossible for someone after a good try.


And this is often the case with monolingual adults who attempt to learn to speak a second language after they retire. Most aging brains have a difficult time learning new linguistic patterns of thought and speech though motivation can help overcome this problem.


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

mickisue1 said:


> Will I ever be as fluent as a native speaker? Heck, no. But, just as I appreciate the efforts of immigrants to this country to learn our language, I believe that people in other countries will be more likely to appreciate my presence if I at least make a concerted effort.


Honestly ... I don't really care if I'm appreciated. Oh, I do ... to a degree, but more importantly, I would learn because one cannot fully enjoy life in Mexico without the ability to communicate even half-way. 

Your access to the country and all it has to offer is severely limited if you cannot communicate. And you will always pay more for so many things, because you don't understand what's going on. 

Even though I'd already traveled in Mexico, visited parts of Mexico, for more than 20 years at the time ... I first studied Spanish when I was 43 (that was 20 years ago). I had a job offer in Mexico which required me to first demonstrate the ability to commuicate in Spanish. Not perfectly, but a minimum of 50% at the start and upon which I could continue to develop. 

It was tough for me to learn, and I enrolled in a total immersion program. It was punnishing. But after 6 months of hard work I learned. I'd never studied a foreign language previously, never in school. And my recollecton of the rules of English grammar were so rusty ... that made the learning of Spanish so much more difficult. But once I had the study under my belt and traveled across Mexico using what I'd learned ... Mexico became my oyster. 

I can travel anyplace in the country comfortably, with confidence. So, _poco a poco_ ... we can all learn. Some more than others. Maybe only a few sentences or other words to communicate with the _muchacha_ cleaning/cooking at home, or with the women in the mercados or with the physician when we don't feel well. 

It can take time for some, be rapid for others. The important thing is ... to try.


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## Guategringo (Nov 9, 2012)

> It can take time for some, be rapid for others. The important thing is ... to try.


All though it is hard to say, Longford I agree with you. I moved to Guatemala over 20 years ago without knowing a word of Spanish and only one person in the entire country. I never took one class of spanish in Guatemala but between my employees, girlfriends and eventually my wife and her family I became 100% fluent to the points where here in Mexico when I speak one guy said to me, "that's right I forgot you are from Guatemala." I use the slang and have not "****** accent." 

It can be done and even if is just enough to get buy at the grocery store or at the market then it will be appreciated by everyone. No everyone needs to or wants to learn to be fluent but as Longford said, it certainly makes life easier and more enjoyable. Now all I have to do is learn all the words that are different between Mexico and Guatemala....


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Guategringo said:


> All though it is hard to say, Longford I agree with you. I moved to Guatemala over 20 years ago without knowing a word of Spanish and only one person in the entire country. I never took one class of spanish in Guatemala but between my employees, girlfriends and eventually my wife and her family I became 100% fluent to the points where here in Mexico when I speak one guy said to me, "that's right I forgot you are from Guatemala." I use the slang and have not "****** accent."
> 
> It can be done and even if is just enough to get buy at the grocery store or at the market then it will be appreciated by everyone. No everyone needs to or wants to learn to be fluent but as Longford said, it certainly makes life easier and more enjoyable. Now all I have to do is learn all the words that are different between Mexico and Guatemala....


That's an encouraging tale of how well you've learned Spanish, Gg, though not everyone who moves to Mexico will end up speaking as fluently as you do, especially if they arrive here post-retirement. How old were you when you moved to Guatemala? Did you speak any language beside English? These are factors that affect language learning.


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## Guategringo (Nov 9, 2012)

Isla Verde said:


> That's an encouraging tale of how well you've learned Spanish, Gg, though not everyone who moves to Mexico will end up speaking as fluently as you do, especially if they arrive here post-retirement. How old were you when you moved to Guatemala? Did you speak any language beside English? These are factors that affect language learning.


Isla if I tell you how old I was when I arrived in Guatemala you will know my age.  I was 34 when I moved to Guatemala. I did not speak another language but my dad was born in Italy and moved to the states at age 8 and I often listened to him speak to his parents in Italian but only until I was 10 when both of my grandparents passed away. 

I know everyone will not learn it but it is nice to try to learn words, phrases and som responses.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Guategringo said:


> Isla if I tell you how old I was when I arrived in Guatemala you will know my age.  I was 34 when I moved to Guatemala. I did not speak another language but my dad was born in Italy and moved to the states at age 8 and I often listened to him speak to his parents in Italian but only until I was 10 when both of my grandparents passed away.
> 
> I know everyone will not learn it but it is nice to try to learn words, phrases and som responses.


I wonder if hearing your father speak Italian to your parents when you were a child helped you in later years to pick up Spanish more easily. I speak Spanish well, especially in terms of grammatical correctness but will have always have somewhat of a gringa accent, much to my dismay.  Studies have shown that people who have some musical ability find it easier to pick up the "music" of a foreign language they are trying to learn. Is that true in your case?

I certainly agree with you just picking up a few useful words and phrases in Spanish will make anyone's life in Mexico more fulfilling. It has been my experience that Mexico is a good place to learn to speak Spanish because, in general, Mexicans are happy when visitors to their country make even a minimal effort to communicate with them in Spanish.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

You all have good points in comments above on this thread but here is a new angle from an extanjero retiree who has lived in Mexico full time for 12 years, first in the Chapala delegacion of Ajijic on Lake Chapala and then, starting a little over six years ago, in San Cristobal de Las Casas, Chiapas as well. I am a U.S. citizen who moved here when age 60 and my wife is a French citizen who moved here at age 55. 

Yes it is more difficult to become functional in a new language when one is older, much less fluent. It is also more difficult for a native English speaking person to grasp the fundamentals of Spanish than it is for a native French speaking person because of the similarities of Spanish and French versus Spanish and English. Thus, my French wife, who spoke no Spanish when we moved here in 2001, has become quite accomplished at speaking Spanish while I continue to muddle along with some rudimentary Spanish after all these years. Well, to be honest about it, she has worked harder at learning Spanish than I perhaps because I am a bit lazy but that is not really the point of my participation in this discussion. 

Today, as has been the case over the past six plus years, we live in both Cristobal in the Chiapas Highlands and Ajijic on Lake Chapala in the heart of the expat colony known generally in those parts as Lakeside. Typically, we spend about six months per year in each place. San Cristobal has only a relatively small expat colony and the composition of that colony is very different from the composition of the expat colony at Lake Chapala. A much larger percentage of the expat colony in San Cristobal is of European origin but expats in general in San Cristobal whether from the United States or other parts of the world tend to speak Spanish quite well as opposed to expats at Lake Chapala coming from English speaking foreign communities who in general have far less of a tendency to learn Spanish beyond the most rudimentary basics if at all. In fact, many expats living at Lakeside often isolated in expat enclaves learn virtually no Spanish at all despite having lived in Mexico for many years.

Now to my point. The social environment at Lakeside is not conducive to learning Spanish nor engaging in Spanish dialogue by expats not truly conversant in the language when out and about in the community at large simply because so many locals with whom the expat may deal socially or in business at Lakeside speak at least passing English and really have little patience for the expat stumbling over his or her pathetic Spanish when the point being pursued could be reached much more efficiently by simply shifting the dialogue to English. Thus, locals at Lake Chapala often dealing with the English speaking expat community are less tolerant of wading through a subject slowly while the foreigner stumbles through elementary Spanglish in order to make a point. In Chiapas, on the other hand, very few people the expat must deal with speak any English at all so the English speaking expat must gear up his or her brain to endeavor to communicate in Spanish as there is simpy no choice. 

A few months in Chiapas each year and my broken Spanish improves significantly as observed by Mexican friends at Lake Chapala upon my return there. Then a few months at Lake Chapala and my Spanish goes to hell. It is amazing how much of any foreign language the expat can grasp within a reasonable amount of time when there is no choice but to be fair to expats at Lake Chapala, it is easy to lapse back into ones native tongue when allowed or even encouraged to do so. When we are at Lake Chapala, my wife often has to insist to locals with whom she is engaging in conversation that they speak Spanish with her as their natural tendencty is to immediately switch to English when speaking with a foreigner.


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## PanamaJack (Apr 1, 2013)

Hound Dog said:


> You all have good points in comments above on this thread but here is a new angle from an extanjero retiree who has lived in Mexico full time for 12 years
> .


From what Hound Dog has to say, it seems as though my friends from teh Lake area might be correct when it comes to expats in the area not being able to or not willing to speak Spanish. However, it seems as if possibly the local population has encouraged that by switching to English as soon as they see a person who looks to fit the description of being an extranjero. Jose Antonio and his wife may not have noticed that since they do not have a business that would deal directly or even indirectly with foreigners. Their only interaction with expats is at restaurants, grocery stores or other public places. 

It also sounds from the description that Hound Dog gave that the local population is willing to accept the fact many of the expats do not speak Spanish and are not upset by it. Of course, that is from the perspective of an expat and not from the mouth of a Mexican. There might be an entirely different response from say those working at the local market or supermarket.

Things have certainly changed since I was a youngster and had to learn Spanish to communicate with anyone because the only other English language speakers I knew were mom and dad. 

Can you imagine something like what is happening in Lake Chapala happening in say Boston where I attended university? The local population changing to Spanish because the immigrants could not speak English. I doubt it very much, kudos to the Lake Chapala Mexicans.


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## PanamaJack (Apr 1, 2013)

Hound Dog said:


> You all have good points in comments above on this thread but here is a new angle from an extanjero retiree who has lived in Mexico full time for 12 years
> .


From what Hound Dog has to say, it seems as though my friends from the Lake area might be correct when it comes to expats in the area not being able to or not willing to speak Spanish. However, it seems as if possibly the local population has encouraged that by switching to English as soon as they see a person who looks to fit the description of being an extranjero. Jose Antonio and his wife may not have noticed that since they do not have a business that would deal directly or even indirectly with foreigners. Their only interaction with expats is at restaurants, grocery stores or other public places. 

It also sounds from the description that Hound Dog gave that the local population is willing to accept the fact many of the expats do not speak Spanish and are not upset by it. Of course, that is from the perspective of an expat and not from the mouth of a Mexican. There might be an entirely different response from say those working at the local market or supermarket.

Things have certainly changed since I was a youngster and had to learn Spanish to communicate with anyone because the only other English language speakers I knew were mom and dad. 

Can you imagine something like what is happening in Lake Chapala happening in say Boston where I attended university? The local population changing to Spanish because the immigrants could not speak English. I doubt it very much, kudos to the Lake Chapala Mexicans.


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## mickisue1 (Mar 10, 2012)

Even though the Lake Chapala area looms large in the minds of North American expats, we need to remember that the area is really a collection of very small towns.

They have the ability to be more flexible, because the ratios of English to Spanish speaking can change more easily, than in, say, Boston or Guadalajara.

There are parts of Boston where you can hear foreign languages more easily than English, as in any large city.

Parts of where I live, the Twin Cities of Minneapolis and St Paul, have neighborhoods and businesses where either Somali or Hmong, depending on the neighborhood, is prominent. Throw in quite a bit of Vietnamese, on University Avenue, and Spanish, LOTS of Spanish, on the west side of St Paul and its closest suburb, along with the first tier suburb of Richfield, as well. Whenever you have sizable groups of people who speak a different language, you'll find places that cater to them.


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## PanamaJack (Apr 1, 2013)

mickisue1 said:


> Even though the Lake Chapala area looms large in the minds of North American expats, we need to remember that the area is really a collection of very small towns.
> 
> They have the ability to be more flexible, because the ratios of English to Spanish speaking can change more easily, than in, say, Boston or Guadalajara.
> 
> ...


Nevertheless, Mickisue I suspect that you will not find born and bred U.S. citizens catering to them in their native language. Of course, before going any further it must be said their are exceptions to the rule. However, if you were to visit the Hmong and Somali neighborhoods how many businesses are owned by North Americans who speak to their customers in Hmong or Somalian? How many times have you seen someone walk into a store in Minneapolis and try to ask for something and the clerk starts speaking say Spanish so the person understands? Not often I would suspect, unless that clerk were a Hispanic as well.

Yes, when I was in Boston for five years at BC I practically lived in the North End and Chinatown. But I can never recall an American owned business in those areas speaking Italian or Chinese to customers who frequented it and were non-English speakers. They spoke English period.

My point is that small town, large towns it does not matter, in Mexico, at least in Lake Chapala and from what Mr Hound Dog says, it seems as if the local population is trying to speak the language of the visitors rather than vice versa.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

PanamaJack said:


> Nevertheless, Mickisue I suspect that you will not find born and bred U.S. citizens catering to them in their native language. Of course, before going any further it must be said their are exceptions to the rule. However, if you were to visit the Hmong and Somali neighborhoods how many businesses are owned by North Americans who speak to their customers in Hmong or Somalian? How many times have you seen someone walk into a store in Minneapolis and try to ask for something and the clerk starts speaking say Spanish so the person understands? Not often I would suspect, unless that clerk were a Hispanic as well.
> 
> Yes, when I was in Boston for five years at BC I practically lived in the North End and Chinatown. But I can never recall an American owned business in those areas speaking Italian or Chinese to customers who frequented it and were non-English speakers. They spoke English period.
> 
> My point is that small town, large towns it does not matter, in Mexico, at least in Lake Chapala and from what Mr Hound Dog says, it seems as if the local population is trying to speak the language of the visitors rather than vice versa.


Another thing I have noticed reading a chapala webboard is there is a large number of Canadians there, whether snowbirds or full time residents of retirement age. I being born and educated in Canada and immigrated to the US [San Diego] when 30 know Canadians in this age group.

We English speaking Canadians where "forced" in middle school and high school to take French. At that time Canadian politics were decidely, in the English speaking sector at least, anti bilingual and resented being "forced" to learn French and many Quebecois and parts of Eastern Canada French refused to learn English. It was a very divided country and the Quebec Separatists didn´t help. There was a lot of back stabbing from both sides.

Now that we had to spend hours a week learning French the ones who did not want to did not and exams and assisignments always gave everyone a passing grade [political] and no one failed a year for not knowing any or very little French. No exam could be graded under a "D" even if you did nothing on the exam for example write a paragraph and you put down a few unrelated words in French etc.

During the weekly 3 hour language labs many snuck out the door and wandered around and no hall monitors or attendance sheets in those days. No one said a word, no detention, no failing a year [politics only].

In Lakeside I would venture to guess some Canadians went through what we went through in school. 

Also us Canadians in those days were very aware of the politics of that time which did a good job on discrediting Native Indians, the media and even the curiculum of public schools included.

Put those 2 arrangements together and I can see a pattern of what I call prejudice and a patronizing attitue by many in Lakeside, conscious or unconscious, which is deep rooted and myself I needed to educate myself to what prejudices are and how harmfull there are to me psychologically. 

Not wanting [even resenting another language forced on them] to learn Spanish by many might be rooted in their past. IMO Also the constant belittling of the Mexicans and Mexico in general by some could be their previous learned predjuices showing up. Alan


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## PanamaJack (Apr 1, 2013)

Alan I would have to disagree. You were forced along with many other Canadians to learn a language you did not like or want to learn, but in your own country. Expats traveling to a foreign country whose national language is different from their own, should know it is only respectful to make an attempt at learning. Their past of being force fed French should not come into play.

Having read some other posts on this same thread I am of the opinion that local merchants have resigned themselves to the fact that many of the expats choose not to or cannot learn Spanish and therefore to have a business in the area must cater to the foreign population by speaking broken English. 

Even though I am a U.S. citizen, I have lived in Mexico the vast majority of my life and i find it sad that the Mexicans must speak a second language to communicate in their own country. I believe everyone should travel and everyone should learn at least two languages, but in this case it just does not seem fair.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

PanamaJack said:


> Alan I would have to disagree. You were forced along with many other Canadians to learn a language you did not like or want to learn, but in your own country. Expats traveling to a foreign country whose national language is different from their own, should know it is only respectful to make an attempt at learning. Their past of being force fed French should not come into play.
> 
> Having read some other posts on this same thread I am of the opinion that local merchants have resigned themselves to the fact that many of the expats choose not to or cannot learn Spanish and therefore to have a business in the area must cater to the foreign population by speaking broken English.
> 
> Even though I am a U.S. citizen, I have lived in Mexico the vast majority of my life and i find it sad that the Mexicans must speak a second language to communicate in their own country. I believe everyone should travel and everyone should learn at least two languages, but in this case it just does not seem fair.


I was not disputing the fact that they now live in a foreign country and "should" not equate a past experience to this fact BUT do they know the "should" is reality or just that it is a good idea [psycologically]. I also mentioned consciously or unconsciously some might resent it.

We "should" do many things [rationally thinking things], but don´t because of the "baggage" we brought with us, No? Alan


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## mickisue1 (Mar 10, 2012)

You have a point, Panama. Although, since Somalis have been here in large numbers for about 20 years, and Hmong people about 30, and, of course, both Spanish speakers and Vietnamese that much longer, there are many native born speakers of those languages who own the shops and the insurance companies, chiropractic and dental offices in those neighborhoods, as well.

My bank, located near a large Hmong neighborhood, has both English and Hmoob signs on the cash machine, and always has at least one clerk inside who speaks Hmoob.

The place where I go when I get my nails done is owned by and staffed by Vietnamese people who have all been born in this country. They speak perfect Minnesota English (well, as perfect as Minnesota English can be!) with customers, but Vietnamese among themselves.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

PanamaJack said:


> …Having read some other posts on this same thread I am of the opinion that local merchants have resigned themselves to the fact that many of the expats choose not to or cannot learn Spanish and therefore to have a business in the area must cater to the foreign population by speaking broken English. …


Are they resigned to it. Or have they just figured out that it is good business practice to speak the language that a lot of (well-heeled) customers speak.

I think the same thing happens in the US. In stores owned by native English speakers in areas with a large concentration of Spanish speakers, there will often be a "Se habla Español" sign and people on staff who speak Spanish. I even read about a store in Tucson or Phoenix that took pesos.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

Some good points following my post about the differences between personal interaction among local and foreign residents in the area generally known as Lakeside at Lake Chapala ( which comprises only a limited geographical area on the lake most broadly defined as that region located between the western edge of the Jocotepec Municipality on the west and the Poncitlan Municipality border with the Chapala Municipality on the east ) and the Municipality of San Cristobal de Las Casas in the high Jovel Valley in the Chiapas Highlands. Just a reminder that San Cristobal has a large indigenous population and is also surrounded by indigenous communiuties where certain Maya languages are spoken as primary languages and Spanish is a secondary language with English hardly spoken at all. Many indigenous people speak no or very limited Spanish or English and this diversity of languages adds complexity to the problems of communication among various groups resident in the area.

We are familiar with some of the language and cultural barriers existing in parts of the United States having lived on the border of Chinatown and Italian oriented North Beach in San Franciso for years and having lived and worked in The Northern California wine growing regions of Napa and Sonoma for years as well. In those areas are large colonies of people who speak only Spanish and others who speak various Chinese dialects to say nothing of various other Asian langiuages one hears on the streets of San Francisco constantly. In places such as the various Asian communities in San Francisco and Spanish speaking communities in the Bay Area and the wine growing valleys, it is not uncommon to find many who have lived and worked in the United States for years speaking no or only very limited English primarlly because they have foiund no compelling reason to learn English fluently if at all to survive economically there. 

I have found in my experienes over the years that people wherever they may reside devote the time and effort to learn to communicate at least marginally in other languages widely spoken where they live, if they feel a compelling need to do so. Thus, as one example in comparing the Mexican communities at Lakeside and in the Jovel Valley, English is widely spoken even if only marginally in the Lakeside community with its large English speaking expat community with purchasing power because it is considered by the local population in general as a language of financial opportunity since so many employment and entrepreneurial opportunities are limited to those native to the region who are able to communicate in Spanish and English. In the Jovel Valley, on the other hand, English speaking capacity is of only marginal value for one to excel in a chosen field of employment except in such endeavors as dealing with the tourist industry. More leverage may be gained by a grasp of the various languages native to the Chiapas Highlands as opposed to English. So, I propose that the incentive to become bilingual or multilingual has more to do with attendant financial and social opportunities as opposed to any altruistic since of community spirit. People endeavor to achieve something in life by learning to communicate with others within the community in which they have chosen or been forced by circumstance to live to the extent necessary to succeed as they have defined success. At Lakeside, a grasp of English is necessary for many opportunities open to locals but the mostly retired expats living there receive their social security or pension checks regardless of their language skills so those who are motivated to achieve fluency in Spanish do so mainly out of a sense of social obligation or adventure not, generally, to take advantage of financial opportunities. In the Jovel Valley community, many expats are not retired but employed and still earning a living in endeavors requiring a grasp of Spanish and perhaps a Maya language as well. Also, expats in the San Cristobal area are more likely to be of European heritage where a grasp of two or more foreign languages is a value taught them in childhood. not upon retireement having been educated in the 1950s when learning fluency in a a foriegn language was not emphasized in U.S. schools compelling them to hone foreign language skills at a ripe old age which is not a simple task, especially when not deemed a requirement simply to survive in a foreign community. 

People rise to their ciurcumstanes generally and that does not indicate any moral superiority of one group over another normally speaking.


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

In the northern tip of New York State, our summer tourists were mostly from Montreal, just 90 minutes away. Yes, many of us learned French and accepted Canadian money. In fact, all of our parochial schools were staffed by French speaking nuns and monks, most family names in our area were French and many still spoke French at home. One of my grandmothers was from a small Quebec town and was French-Metis, while the other side of the family had roots in English speaking Canada and in New England. I guess some must have been Loyalists. Yet, we were apple pie eating Yankees; except for the confederates we just discovered in recent years, some having given the family name to thousands of current darker skinned Texans. As such, I have little patience with those who just refuse to try another language and I am still ashamed that I can only stumble along in three or four. I guess that makes me disfunctional, but with my heritage, what can I expect?


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## PanamaJack (Apr 1, 2013)

TundraGreen said:


> Are they resigned to it. Or have they just figured out that it is good business practice to speak the language that a lot of (well-heeled) customers speak.
> 
> I think the same thing happens in the US. In stores owned by native English speakers in areas with a large concentration of Spanish speakers, there will often be a "Se habla Español" sign and people on staff who speak Spanish. I even read about a store in Tucson or Phoenix that took pesos.


I agree they may not be "resigned" to it, but its is sad they feel a need to speak another language in their own country. As far as the "se habla Espanol" signs would you not agree that the vast majority if not all the people that speak Spanish are of a Hispanic heritage and are most liley first generation or even immigrants? There are stores scattered throughout border areas the U.S. that take pesos. I am sure in the north there are stores that accept canadian dollars as well.


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## PanamaJack (Apr 1, 2013)

mickisue1 said:


> You have a point, Panama. Although, since Somalis have been here in large numbers for about 20 years, and Hmong people about 30, and, of course, both Spanish speakers and Vietnamese that much longer, there are many native born speakers of those languages who own the shops and the insurance companies, chiropractic and dental offices in those neighborhoods, as well.
> 
> My bank, located near a large Hmong neighborhood, has both English and Hmoob signs on the cash machine, and always has at least one clerk inside who speaks Hmoob.
> 
> The place where I go when I get my nails done is owned by and staffed by Vietnamese people who have all been born in this country. They speak perfect Minnesota English (well, as perfect as Minnesota English can be!) with customers, but Vietnamese among themselves.


Mickisue I understand what you are saying. But your analogies do not hold water. UNLESS the people speaking Spanish, Hmong or Vietnamese are Anglo-saxon and are not first or second generation Vietnamese-American, Mexican-American or Hmong-American.


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## Guategringo (Nov 9, 2012)

I have not been in Mexico long and much of what I take from is 20 years in Guatemala. Most of you might know of Antigua, Guatemala a very popular place for expats. What I found there that sounds much different than in Lake Chapala is that for the most part the restaurants or bars that attract expats are not exclusively for expats per se. You will find a large number of expats, but always a mix of Guatemalans, even in the establishments that are owned and operated by expats.

Also in the markets in Antigua you do not find Guatemalans selling their wares and speaking English. The broken English - Hey Mister, Hola my friend or what you look for...is heard but conversing in English no way. It shocks me that you would hear it in Mexico as Mexicans are considered the most nationalist in the region. In my short time in Queretaro I have found the markets to be a real pleasure, but certainly no English spoken buying my veggies, fruits and meats.

I know it must be hard for those in their 60s and above to learn a second language and I respect that. However, it would be nice to see everyone else at least give the old college try. I believe it is part of respecting the people, traditions, culture and customs of where you live.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

PanamaJack said:


> … As far as the "se habla Espanol" signs would you not agree that the vast majority if not all the people that speak Spanish are of a Hispanic heritage and are most liley first generation or even immigrants? …


While I agree that the size of the US and its isolation from other countries, in contrast to Europe for example, lead to a population that is largely monolingual except for recent immigrants. However, there are lots of exceptions. 

I worked on a field crew once that was composed of an African-American, two Japanese-Americans, and one Hispanic-American and me (adopted with no knowledge of heritage). We were working in southern California near the border. On a day off once, we went to Mexicali for the day. It was interesting to watch. All of the Mexicans would speak to the Hispanic-American in our group. However, he did not speak Spanish. One of the Japanese-Americans was fluent in Spanish and handled our communication that day.


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## mickisue1 (Mar 10, 2012)

Heh, Will.

My DIL is Mexican American, and looks very Asian; she's been mistaken for Japanese. Both she and my son, her husband, worked in Japan for some time. My son took 3 full years of Japanese, and was fairly fluent, she could barely get by.

When they'd be out together, and someone would talk to them, and my son did the answering, the person frequently looked at them with a "Why's the white guy talking?" look on their face.

Panama, the example I gave you of my bank was very appropriate. While the manager may not speak Hmoob, in order to be hospitable to his customers who speak it, he hires young people who do, as well. Most of the people my age, and of course their kids and grandkids born in this country, speak English. But many of the older people don't speak English at all, and the ones my age are still more comfortable speaking Hmoob.

One reason that it's more common to find people who speak English in, say Ajijic, is that many other countries require that kids learn English in school. My Italian son in law to be teaches middle school Italian, but could speak English, albeit not fluently, when he met us. He has improved because my daughter has "English only" times at their home. She teaches English for a living; he gets his lessons for free.

Something that might help those struggling with their Spanish: have Spanish only times at THEIR homes. My grasp of both Spanish and Italian is at the toddler level. But I could carry on a conversation, albeit incredibly stilted, if necessary. And having the necessity would make the next time less of a struggle.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

_


Guategringo said:



I have not been in Mexico long and much of what I take from is 20 years in Guatemala. Most of you might know of Antigua, Guatemala a very popular place for expats. What I found there that sounds much different than in Lake Chapala is that for the most part the restaurants or bars that attract expats are not exclusively for expats per se. You will find a large number of expats, but always a mix of Guatemalans, even in the establishments that are owned and operated by expats.

Also in the markets in Antigua you do not find Guatemalans selling their wares and speaking English. The broken English - Hey Mister, Hola my friend or what you look for...is heard but conversing in English no way. It shocks me that you would hear it in Mexico as Mexicans are considered the most nationalist in the region. In my short time in Queretaro I have found the markets to be a real pleasure, but certainly no English spoken buying my veggies, fruits and meats.

I know it must be hard for those in their 60s and above to learn a second language and I respect that. However, it would be nice to see everyone else at least give the old college try. I believe it is part of respecting the people, traditions, culture and customs of where you live.

Click to expand...

_Well, Guategringo, while we have not yet met , and no disrespect intended, I find your take on the relationships among foreign expat residents and locals between Antigua, Guatemala and the Lakeside region of Jalisco Mexico to put it kindly, naive. I wuld suggest that no one intending to absorb themselves in Guatemalan or Mexican cultures use either place as a base for learning but, certainly. the isolated cultural anomaly of the small town of Antigua cannot even remotely mimic the experience all cultures exposed gain from living in the far more sophisticated urban culture of Metropolitan Guadalajara of which exurban Chapala is a part. Veggies, fruits and meats are not enhanced in flavor by human discourse and I guarantee you I can find produce and fruits in California organic farmers markets that will always exceed the quality and flavor of anything you will ever experience in most of Mexico or Guatemala. No contest. Now, Chiapas produce is another matterr but I would rather not go there at present.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

mickisue1 said:


> One reason that it's more common to find people who speak English in, say Ajijic, is that many other countries require that kids learn English in school. My Italian son in law to be teaches middle school Italian, but could speak English, albeit not fluently, when he met us. He has improved because my daughter has "English only" times at their home. She teaches English for a living; he gets his lessons for free.
> 
> 
> 
> > Considering the poor state of the teaching of English in Mexican schools (the exception being the top-notch bilingual schools for the upper echelons of society), I doubt that the tradespeople in Ajijic, for example, can speak English because of what they learned in school. More likely it has been necessity and good business smarts that are responsible for their acquisition of the language.


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## vantexan (Sep 4, 2011)

Hound Dog said:


> Well, Guategringo, while we have not yet met , and no disrespect intended, I find your take on the relationships among foreign expat residents and locals between Antigua, Guatemala and the Lakeside region of Jalisco Mexico to put it kindly, naive. I wuld suggest that no one intending to absorb themselves in Guatemalan or Mexican cultures use either place as a base for learning but, certainly. the isolated cultural anomaly of the small town of Antigua cannot even remotely mimic the experience all cultures exposed gain from living in the far more sophisticated urban culture of Metropolitan Guadalajara of which exurban Chapala is a part. Veggies, fruits and meats are not enhanced in flavor by human discourse and I guarantee you I can find produce and fruits in California organic farmers markets that will always exceed the quality and flavor of anything you will ever experience in most of Mexico or Guatemala. No contest. Now, Chiapas produce is another matterr but I would rather not go there at present.


Are you a betting man Dawg? Never tried them, but I'm willing to bet Guatemalan produce will hold up well against anything in California. Why? Rich volcanic soil. And many generations of growing experience in that soil.


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## Guategringo (Nov 9, 2012)

Hound Dog,
I'm lost you succeeded in losing me. I am not sure what your disertation was all about. all I said was since I have been in Queretaro and gone to the markets I have not heard any english being spoken as I purchased by veggies, fruits and meats. Nothing more nothing less. How you relate that to the quality fo fruits and and vegetable in Antigua and in Calfornia is beyond me? 

Have you visited Antigua? Your wife has but for a tour of what a day, two or more? There are centuries old monasteries, convents and colonial ruins. In the hotel Casa Santa Domingo they unearthed an entire church and its altar. The surrounding towns such as San Antonio Aguas Calientes have incredble textiles. Antigua is known around the world for its spanish "total immersion" schools. Rated some of the best in the World. Antigua is an UNESCO World Herittage site. 

Now about veggies and fruits. Anything and everything grows here they have some of the best papaya, mangos, watermelon, pineapple, limes and more here. There is every vegetable imageable here from snow peas that are exported to anything you could think of. Snow peas, broccoli, beans, and more is all exported around the world. Cardamom and coffee are considered by some to be the best in the world. 

All I said was Guatemala vendors in markets in Antigua and other towns scattered across the countryside do not speak English to their customers as they do in the lakeside towns around Lake Chapala. I guess if I lived in guatemala for 20 years and shopped at the market on a weekly basis I would know if I heard my native language being spoken nearby? When I mentioned that mexicans are the most nationalist of countries I may have said it wrong. Mexicans in the region believe everything in Mexico is better than anywhere else. This has been said to me at least a thousand times by Hondurans to Costa Ricans to Guatemalans and Nicaraguans... 

You know I would never compare Lake Chapala to Antigua because Lake Chapala cannot even hold a candle to Antigua and for that matter neither can San Cristobal de las Casas. Antigua was once the captial of the Kingdom of Guatemala that ran as far north as Quintana Roo and as far west as Chiapas and as far south as Nicaragua. The heart a soul that was Pedro Alvarados - Santiago de los caballeros antigua. 

So, Hound Dog explain to me what you were trying to say and where you believe I am being naive?


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## Guategringo (Nov 9, 2012)

vantexan said:


> Are you a betting man Dawg? Never tried them, but I'm willing to bet Guatemalan produce will hold up well against anything in California. Why? Rich volcanic soil. And many generations of growing experience in that soil.


You are absolutely correct. In Guatemala they grow anything and everything and as you said they have grow it in rich volcanic soil from the 33 plus volcanes of which five are still active for generations. I have seen veggies growing on land that is 60 degrees or higher that is nearly impossible to walk on let alone grow corn on.


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## nomaddd (Jan 7, 2013)

I have travelled all over the world. I am English, but live in Australia. Nevertheless, I always try to learn a few words of the countries language before I visit, thus I am able to communicate for simple wants.
In 1953 I walked across Afghanistan and survived on sign language quite easily.
I believe the local inhabitants appreciate you more if you try to learn the language.
The best way to learn is to forget that you speak English and use the local language all the time, in this manner you will learn much quicker.
Whatever you do, do not mix and live with English speaking expats, as you speak English all the time.


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

nomaddd said:


> Whatever you do, do not mix and live with English speaking expats, as you speak English all the time.


I don't agree with the above statement. There's a place for intermingling with both cultures. You can maintain friendships/associations with English-speaking expats and organizations because they provide a pressure valve to relieve stresses, and while maintaining those associations you can continue to expand your opportunities in the Spanish-speaking/local communities. There's clearly room for both without the situation being a negative.


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

Both make excellent points and both are valid, depending upon the individual.


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## mes1952 (Dec 11, 2012)

the term "little Havana" refers to the # of Cubans living in an area...rather than the # speaking Spanish.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

RVGRINGO said:


> Both make excellent points and both are valid, depending upon the individual.


Of course it depends on the individual, but for many, including me, learning Spanish is difficult enough that immersion with Spanish speakers is essential. The first two years I was here I worked with Mexicans who spoke English well. I didn't really make much progress until I started spending less time with English speakers and more time with Spanish speakers.


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## sunnyvmx (Mar 14, 2010)

In Catemaco, Veracruz, few expats mean't that you were going to speak spanish to be understood. I find that here in the Lake Chapala area, I'm often speaking my poor spanish while the salesperson is speaking english. I must concentrate to continue to try and speak the spanish language or it would be too easy to get by without it. I have also noticed that Americans married to Mexicans do not learn as fast as you would expect because they very often allow their spouse to speak spanish for them.


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## PanamaJack (Apr 1, 2013)

mes1952 said:


> the term "little Havana" refers to the # of Cubans living in an area...rather than the # speaking Spanish.


I am not sure what you mean by this? I know the Little Havana my friends were referring to is an area in Miami near Calle 8 or Eighth Street that is nearly 100% Hispanic with the vast majority being Cuban. Most people in the area speak very little if any English.


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## vantexan (Sep 4, 2011)

sunnyvmx said:


> In Catemaco, Veracruz, few expats mean't that you were going to speak spanish to be understood. I find that here in the Lake Chapala area, I'm often speaking my poor spanish while the salesperson is speaking english. I must concentrate to continue to try and speak the spanish language or it would be too easy to get by without it. I have also noticed that Americans married to Mexicans do not learn as fast as you would expect because they very often allow their spouse to speak spanish for them.


Have been reading about Zacatecas and there are supposed to be more citizens of Zacatecas state living in the U.S. than are now living in Zacatecas state. The result is you'll run into quite a few people there who've lived in the States and speak varying degrees of English. This appears to be especially true of the small city of Jerez where there is also a small expat population.


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