# How easy is it to do business in spain



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Very interesting info from the World Bank. They compare how difficult it is to do business in 183 different economies. The numbers refer to how each country fairs out of 183.
Summary: It's not very easy in Spain!

Doing Business in Spain - Doing Business - The World Bank Group (Spain)

Doing Business in United Kingdom - Doing Business - The World Bank Group (UK)


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## NorthernLass (Nov 9, 2009)

Thanks Pesky Wesky.. Very interesting.

I thought it was just difficult because of the language !!

Spain really isn't a country to help the small business, is it? It seems to me that the laws and regs change constantly and the correct information isn't easy to find.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

NorthernLass said:


> I thought it was just difficult because of the language !!
> 
> Spain really isn't a country to help the small business, is it? It seems to me that the laws and regs change constantly and the correct information isn't easy to find.


Absolutely.
And don't forget the opening hours of anything official. That doesn't help either!


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2010)

I think if you're a small business, play by the rules and have a non-dodgy accountant then it's not really any worse/harder than the UK. It's when you get bigger and especially when you employ people that it turns into a nightmare or you employ an accountant, that would make Del Boy blush, with dodgy "money saving" practices that people get burnt!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

ShinyAndy said:


> I think if you're a small business, play by the rules and have a non-dodgy accountant then it's not really any worse/harder than the UK. It's when you get bigger and especially when you employ people that it turns into a nightmare or you employ an accountant, that would make Del Boy blush, with dodgy "money saving" practices that people get burnt!


I agree, play by the rules when you *can*, but when it takes over a year for your opening licence to come through, you're just going to wait, are you??? I think most people can't wait that long. (happened to an academy I was involved in setting up)


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## timr (Feb 1, 2010)

Thanks for posting this interesting comparison. Although its easy to read too much into these reports the figures that standout for Spain, aside for the overall ranking of 62, are:

Starting a business: 146 position (out of 184)
Employing workers: 157 position

And there´s another exceptional figure: 20%+ unemployment.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Very interesting info from the World Bank. They compare how difficult it is to do business in 183 different economies. The numbers refer to how each country fairs out of 183.
> Summary: It's not very easy in Spain!
> 
> Doing Business in Spain - Doing Business - The World Bank Group (Spain)
> ...


I'll read that later when I have more time - looks interesting

totally confirms what my OH says - the US is ranked no 4!!! (which is where he does his business!)

the UK no 5 & Spain no 62!!!


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## timr (Feb 1, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> I'll read that later when I have more time - looks interesting
> 
> totally confirms what my OH says - the US is ranked no 4!!! (which is where he does his business!)
> 
> the UK no 5 & Spain no 62!!!


and Mongolia no 60.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

timr said:


> and Mongolia no 60.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

timr said:


> Thanks for posting this interesting comparison. Although its easy to read too much into these reports the figures that standout for Spain, aside for the overall ranking of 62, are:
> 
> Starting a business: 146 position (out of 184)
> Employing workers: 157 position
> ...


I agree. Sometimes they give points for things that you're not interested in or don't apply to you. Same as the stars for a hotel. They might give more stars to a hotel with a disco, but that doesn't interest me in the slightest!

But if Spain is 146 out of 184 for starting a business it gives you an idea at least of what to expect, which is headaches, waiting in queues and doing a lot of stuff that you thought you'd already done!?!


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## Muddy (Jan 14, 2010)

There was a bit on the news earlier this week in UK about how high unemployment was in Spain, I thought it said something about 40%! but I missed the beginning.
Just googled and found an indepth thread on the whole topic of why Spain is in such 
a mess...
Apparently 40% of young people are out of work..!
Unemployment is Spain's main obstacle to recovery | Miguel-Anxo Murado | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

I really want to go to Spain and live the dream, well my own version of it anyway  but reading and listing to all the negative stuff in the press does make me think and think again, what should I do :confused2:

One big thing for me that stands out is the flat rate payment you have to hand over if you go self employed in Spain! Right now I'm self employed in the UK and I work a little but not much these days for various reasons but in Spain that will be hard for me to hand over a load of wonga every month if I can't or don't work every month over the year etc..
IMHO I think this must be a small part of the problem that reduces the amount of small business creation and at the same time helps sustain the black economy and what stops Spain from collecting a lot more tax in the end than it actually could!
What say you... :eyebrows:


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Muddy said:


> There was a bit on the news earlier this week in UK about how high unemployment was in Spain, I thought it said something about 40%! but I missed the beginning.
> Just googled and found an indepth thread on the whole topic of why Spain is in such
> a mess...
> Apparently 40% of young people are out of work..!
> ...



According to my husband, another problem is that its very hard to sack people who are employed on a contract, so nowadays employers are reluctant to give contracts for work, which means more people are being paid "black money" which isnt seen by the taxman or the government. 

Of course, the other side of the coin is that you can only claim unemployment benefit for a fixed period and you cant claim it at all if you've not paid into the system - Can you imagine that one in the UK???????

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Muddy said:


> There was a bit on the news earlier this week in UK about how high unemployment was in Spain, I thought it said something about 40%! but I missed the beginning.
> Just googled and found an indepth thread on the whole topic of why Spain is in such
> a mess...
> Apparently 40% of young people are out of work..!
> ...


Thanks for the article which I'll keep for later.
The 40% figure is often mentioned as it should be, but I think today was when it really hit me - what will my 16 year old daughter find in 2 years time when she leaves school????

BTW - I'm self employed and you can go off or on as you need to, I mean if you know that one month you're not going to be working you go off it. You have to go into your INEM office (employment office). It's still extremely expensive though and I sometimes wonder why I bother 'cos by the time I've shelled out the petrol and the self employed payment, there's not a lot left to go and do the shopping with...


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## fourgotospain (May 4, 2009)

As with all figures in Spain, I'm betting the 40% doesn't take into account all the people working on the black, and all the daughters and sons working in the family business. Yes, the country is in the do-do, but take it with a pinch of salt...it wouldn't surprise me to learn that some of those of the unemployed are the ones with Daddy's Bin Ladens under the mattress...hmmmmm.


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## timr (Feb 1, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> BTW - I'm self employed and you can go off or on as you need to, I mean if you know that one month you're not going to be working you go off it. You have to go into your INEM office (employment office). It's still extremely expensive though and I sometimes wonder why I bother 'cos by the time I've shelled out the petrol and the self employed payment, there's not a lot left to go and do the shopping with...


Pesky, mind if ask if you find doing "baja" from the Social Security straighforward for the months when there no work. I´m thinking of beginning a small business with a low income and irregular income. Some months there´ll nothing at all and I can´t afford to pay 250 pm SS. 

Thanks


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

timr said:


> Pesky, mind if ask if you find doing "baja" from the Social Security straighforward for the months when there no work. I´m thinking of beginning a small business with a low income and irregular income. Some months there´ll nothing at all and I can´t afford to pay 250 pm SS.
> 
> Thanks


Well, it's fairly painless for me, but I do have the help of my OH who is Spanish and teaches this kind of thing (he teaches business studies) so if I had a difficulty he could help me. And it's fairly nearby. But it's just a matter of going there and saying _*baja autónomo*_ and if you don't know what papers to do, they'll help you - nicely or not, but it'll get done. They're usually OK with me. The only thing is that you have to go there and back. I have to go to a nice place and I have a coffee afterwards in the bar next door!
I'm not sure if you have to go hacienda as well. I'll check when I can. I should know 'cos I've done it loads of times, but...


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## Muddy (Jan 14, 2010)

Thanx JoJo
funny that, I would have thought that a contract would give a company more control but perhaps not. I mean that can be used in the UK either way but if employers are taking the black economy route then there must be a fundamental problem with the system being unfair (maybe)!
Unemployment payment, well that sounds ok, not paid in you don't get nothing out. so how long do you have to pay in for BTW before you can claim?
Do they not have income support equivalent as they do here. Been a very long time from when I last signed on so who knows maybe its all very different now and a bit closer to Spain!

Hi Pesky Wesky
Thank you very much for that bit of info regarding changing from on/off self employed status!
That's still not perfect tho is it! I mean not everyone is going to know if work is going to come in or not. And what happens if you're sick for a couple of months etc. Does this system only work if you tell them in advance and if so how much notice.
Can you post any links to this in English plz explaining how it works exactly?

When you said


> It's still extremely expensive though


 did you mean there is a payment for doing this or was that for all the running about you have to do, back and forwards to the employment office burning petrol etc?

Maybe your daughter will have to look at doing a bit of further education perhaps, I'm sure a lot of peeps here have done that with the job market over the past 2 years. But that sort of leads me back to being put off the self employed route in Spain cos you have to shell out from day one before you make a penny, or is it a cent  IMHO if they want to create incentive for small business they need to change to more like the UK system at the very least.
I've been made redundant a few times in the past, but it would have made it a much harder decision to go self employed if I had to start paying out monthly straight away.


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## timr (Feb 1, 2010)

Pesky, thanks for the info.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Muddy said:


> Hi Pesky Wesky
> Thank you very much for that bit of info regarding changing from on/off self employed status!
> That's still not perfect tho is it! I mean not everyone is going to know if work is going to come in or not. And what happens if you're sick for a couple of months etc. Does this system only work if you tell them in advance and if so how much notice.
> Can you post any links to this in English plz explaining how it works exactly?
> ...


 
When I said 


> It's still extremely expensive


I was referring to the 260euros or what ever it is and the running around. You don't have to pay anything to sign off.
I'll look for some links, but you can also get in touch with *bakeja* from the forum who should be able to point you in the right direction for some clearer and more accurate info. I've just remembered too, that my situation is in some ways different to others 'cos I'm a teacher so sometimes things are done differently. For instance I don't have to do any quarterly declarations as some others do - don't ask me why... Anyway, you obviously need more professional advise over this

My daughter is almost definitely going on to uni or FP thank goodness, so perhaps I was exaggerating when I said in a couple of years, but even then she's going to find it tough.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

timr said:


> Pesky, thanks for the info.


My pleasure, but please see the post above this one too


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## Muddy (Jan 14, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> When I said
> 
> I was referring to the 260euros or what ever it is and the running around. You don't have to pay anything to sign off.
> I'll look for some links, but you can also get in touch with *bakeja* from the forum who should be able to point you in the right direction for some clearer and more accurate info. .


Yeah 260e is a lot from the off, are the any legal alternatives I'm wondering like paying private and bypassing the system or at least part of it!
Yep I need more pro advice, all this info gathering is hard work in it self 
I'll have a good look through the forum and see what I can find. I just want to see how that 260e breaks down, any flat payment like that before earning a penny tho is always going to feel a bit like a stealth tax me thinks..


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Muddy said:


> Yeah 260e is a lot from the off, are the any legal alternatives I'm wondering like paying private and bypassing the system or at least part of it!
> Yep I need more pro advice, all this info gathering is hard work in it self
> I'll have a good look through the forum and see what I can find. I just want to see how that 260e breaks down, any flat payment like that before earning a penny tho is always going to feel a bit like a stealth tax me thinks..


it's not even tax - that comes separately/on top!

it's the Spanish equivalent to the UK NI payment for health care & towards your state pension

and if you're working self-employed there's no legal way around it!

if you find one thousands of us would like to know


if you're not working then in my region you can 'buy into' the state health system - but that's about 270 per quarter PER PERSON including children

private health care is much cheaper - but of course won't cover pre-existing problems


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Muddy said:


> Thanx JoJo
> !
> 
> Hi Pesky Wesky
> ...


OK confirmed. When you go off self employed you have to go to the tax office (again painless for me. I get to see the happiest security guard in the world, who is just unbelievably nice and cheery and is famous all over the Sierra of Madrid!) first and then to the social security.
Here is a link to place that gives a LOT of info about being self employed in Spain, and the first one is even a video guide, but I don't think it says anything about what we've been talking about.
Guide to Spain's autonomo system
As for being sick, I'm incredibly lucky in that I've been self employed for about 10 years now and have probably had 5 days off for throat infections etc, although I did have to take a lot of time off and had to drop a client when my daughter was in hospital. I don't know if I could have got any compensation, but I didn't even try. I doubt it.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> OK confirmed. When you go off self employed you have to go to the tax office (again painless for me. I get to see the happiest security guard in the world, who is just unbelievably nice and cheery and is famous all over the Sierra of Madrid!) first and then to the social security.
> Here is a link to place that gives a LOT of info about being self employed in Spain, and the first one is even a video guide, but I don't think it says anything about what we've been talking about.
> Guide to Spain's autonomo system
> As for being sick, I'm incredibly lucky in that I've been self employed for about 10 years now and have probably had 5 days off for throat infections etc, although I did have to take a lot of time off and had to drop a client when my daughter was in hospital. I don't know if I could have got any compensation, but I didn't even try. I doubt it.


if you baja for I think 3 months you lose health cover - although I think that might have changed with the crisis:confused2:


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> if you baja for I think 3 months you lose health cover - although I think that might have changed with the crisis:confused2:


That's very likely. I never go off for more than a month...


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> That's very likely. I never go off for more than a month...


and of course you're covered in any case by your husband as he is working

I think it's crazy that you can't get a reduced autonomo payment if you are already covered for health as a dependent of someone else


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## timr (Feb 1, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> and of course you're covered in any case by your husband as he is working
> 
> I think it's crazy that you can't get a reduced autonomo payment if you are already covered for health as a dependent of someone else


It´s an oddity of the system. None the money you actually pay as an autonomo actually goes to fund the health services. It´s basically a contribution to your Spanish Statement pension (I think it also covers sick pay and maternity leave). Additionally, in Valencia (and also in some other regions), if you´re "en baja" from the Social Security you don´t lose access to health care (although there are some restrictions). 

:confused2:


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

timr said:


> It´s an oddity of the system. None the money you actually pay as an autonomo actually goes to fund the health services. It´s basically a contribution to your Spanish Statement pension (I think it also covers sick pay and maternity leave). Additionally, in Valencia (and also in some other regions), if you´re "en baja" from the Social Security you don´t lose access to health care (although there are some restrictions).
> 
> :confused2:


None of the money in the UK system goes to fund h/care or pensions, just goes in the same pot as everything else.


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## jmthomas (Jun 13, 2010)

Spain really does need to reform to save itself however, the current government does not seem to be sufficiently motivated. It is without doubt worse for larger businesses but even the small ones have to struggle against never ending mixed advice and delays.


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## Muddy (Jan 14, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> it's not even tax - that comes separately/on top!
> 
> it's the Spanish equivalent to the UK NI payment for health care & towards your state pension
> 
> ...


Thanx xabiachica, yeah I new tax was on top (ouch) but anything that's a flat rate is just a tax to me!
Is that state Healthcare option not country wide then? Or cost changes per region?
If I did find a workaround it might be wise not to advertise it lol  maybe with just a few friends on here lol..
Private might be a wise option than even if not needed now it might save you later!



Pesky Wesky said:


> OK confirmed.


Thanx Pesky Wesky for the links & info.
I'll have a good read through. I bet the more I read the more I will be annoyed by the system!



xabiachica said:


> and of course you're covered in any case by your husband as he is working
> 
> I think it's crazy that you can't get a reduced autonomo payment if you are already covered for health as a dependent of someone else


How does this stand if you're not married, can a non married partner have the same status?


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