# EU Citizen - Residency



## dan&eva

Hello!

Myself, my wife and two young children have recently made the move from the UK to Umbria, Italy.

We have been reading online about how to gain residency and are totally confused. We currently have a rental agreement for one year, and if we find work will stay for longer. What do we need to do to get residency? A pds or cds? Do we go to the local comune or post office? Please help!

Please


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## Lonely

dan&eva said:


> Hello!
> 
> Myself, my wife and two young children have recently made the move from the UK to Umbria, Italy.
> 
> We have been reading online about how to gain residency and are totally confused. We currently have a rental agreement for one year, and if we find work will stay for longer. What do we need to do to get residency? A pds or cds? Do we go to the local comune or post office? Please help!
> 
> Please


Comune only.

They will tell you what happens next. More than likely they will send the local police officer to check you really live where u tell them, then you'll get the certificate.


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## dan&eva

Thanks, do I ask for the pds or cds?


Does it matter if I'm not working as I've been told I would need a job, but didn't think that to be true??!


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## Lonely

dan&eva said:


> Thanks, do I ask for the pds or cds?


pds  cds 

Write to me in plain English please...or Italian


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## Lonely

ah maybe you meant permesso di soggiorno...are you able to understand this?




> Come si presenta la domanda
> 
> L' istanza di iscrizione si presenta all'ufficio anagrafe del Comune presso il quale il cittadino dimora, presentando il permesso di soggiorno in corso di validità, il passaporto, il codice fiscale e la patente di guida (se in possesso), atti tradotti e legalizzati/apostillati di nascita, matrimonio, divorzio e/o attestanti la relazione di parentela. Dal 9 maggio scorso è possibile presentare la domanda anche per posta, fax o telematicamente.
> 
> Problemi frequenti che insorgono quando a chiedere l’iscrizione è un cittadino extracomunitario riguardano il nome e il cognome.
> L’iscrizione è effettuata sulla base dei dati indicati dal Passaporto e, se viene rilevata una differenza con quelli contenuti nel permesso di soggiorno, l’operatore del Comune rimanda la questione alla Questura perché provveda, su istanza dell’interessato, a correggere il permesso di soggiorno.


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## Lonely

Here in English:

Residence in Italy, italian residency, residency for eu nationals, non-eu nationals in italy, italian immigration, living legally in Italy, permesso di soggiorno, ec residence permit for long-term residents, italian visa requirements

Then from the Police, this may be useful if you don't have it already:

Residence permit


In regards to the job, I just checked and it seems it's a controversial thing, potentially even illegal for any Comune asking that but I am not sure as I have been away for years.


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## dan&eva

Yes, cds is carta di soggiorno which I have also read about and you can get from the post office.....I don't know the difference or which one we should apply for!


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## NickZ

That's not true.

You'll need to show income or enough savings. Income used to be around €6000. Can't remember if that was per person or for the full family. You'll need health care if you aren't working. The EU changed the name of the form but the old EU S1 is I think the right one. You'll need to get this from your home health service. The other choice is private health care. For some reason 103 sticks in my mind at the moment. That might be the new EU number. You'll need a place to live. Not sure a one year contract will do it. In theory it shouldn't but you never know.

Some regions/provinces are stricter. But it's the standard EU requirements you'll need to meet


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## dan&eva

Confused again now.


We have E1.11 cards which covers our health care when in Europe. We have savings which will get us through the first year at least, and we have a rental contract for the year. So where do we go, what do we apply for?


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## NickZ

Go to the town hall and register for residency.


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## NickZ

BBCWatcher said:


> You simply apply for "residenza" at the Anagrafe almost exactly the same way Italian citizens do.



This isn't true.

Italians don't need to prove income or health care. There are enough cases making it clear they often don't have to prove a place to live. Home less people getting residence for example.


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## samthemainman

dan&eva said:


> Confused again now.
> 
> We have E1.11 cards which covers our health care when in Europe. We have savings which will get us through the first year at least, and we have a rental contract for the year. So where do we go, what do we apply for?


EHIC cards which replaced the E111 are for tourist emergencies only and do NOT cover you as a resident, in Italy or anywhere else in Europe. 
It's a common misconception. Luckily the Italian SSN works much like the NHS in the UK in that you will not be turned away in an emergency or be made to pay, but you still need the services of a GP/doctor etc. and non-urgent stuff.

You will need either private healthcare or enrol into SSN. Unofficial details here: http://italy.angloinfo.com/healthcare/health-system/eligibility/


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## Early Day Motion

*It won't be easy...*

This is one of those italian conundrums. The law requires you to register as resident after you have been physically in Italy for more than 90 days, but the powers-that- be do everything they can to make it practically impossible to do so. Having been through this very complicated process, I can tell you how I did it.
1. Go to the anagraphic office in the Commune, where at least they have the correct forms for you to fill in.
2. You will need to show your rental agreement, and a bank statement, to show you aren't intending to be a drain on the state.
3. You need to have a couple of passport photos of yourself, and the appropriate stamps for payment for the application.
3. You will need to have proof of appropriate medical insurance for a year from the date of application (they will not accept the E111, even though not to accept it is against EU rules....they just won't; the application form states this specifically); friends of mine in Lucca were given the run-around on this point, and were told their pre-existing insurance was insufficient; the day before I presented myself at the Commune, I signed up online for the most expensive global health insurance programme I could find, downloaded and printed off the insurance schedule, took it with me to the Commune and got the appropriate box ticked, and then afterwards came home and cancelled the insurance immediately, while still within the 'cooling off' period. (Some might think this questionable; in Italian terms, I think it would be considered merely 'practical').
4. I have to say, I also took my italian lawyer with me to be the interface with the perfectly pleasant lady behind the glass screen. This was probably the best thing I could have done in order to avoid throwing in the towel, and succumbing to apoplexy.
5. Then, once they've done you the honour of processing the form, you need to wait at home for the surprise visit of the vigili, to check that you do indeed live there.....and only several weeks/months after that will you receive the letter that tells you that you can now go and collect your identity card.

Simple, really.

Of course, nobody will notice or be in the least bothered if you don't take out residency. It has some advantages, re getting slightly reduced utility bills, and being able to buy and sell property with 'prima casa' status; other than that, though, if it's going to be a major hassle, I wouldn't bother.

Hope this helps.


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## Rpats

E111 is way out of date, I assume you mean EHIC cards. This covers you for emergency treatment.

We looked into getting residency a couple of years ago. Main point is that it entitles you to health and social security that Italians get, but as you have not paid any National Insurance in Italy the commune will want to 
a) see a document from DSS in the UK to say you are covered by them (unless you have private cover) This is the S4 form . Phone numbers on their website.
b) see proof of income so they know you are not going to start claiming benefits straight away

hope this helps


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## sim0670

dan&eva said:


> Confused again now.
> 
> 
> We have E1.11 cards which covers our health care when in Europe. We have savings which will get us through the first year at least, and we have a rental contract for the year. So where do we go, what do we apply for?


If i remember right the e1.11 is only okay for 3 months after that presume you must become resident. When we applied for residency we had to prove income €5,500 min . which at the time was enough to cover us. Being a family of 3. Again, we had to prove this to gain the health cards for all of us. I think if you can prove sufficient savings to live on this should okay to gain residency.
Having said all this we lived in Italy without residency for the 1st year without any hassles.. The hassles came later..........!


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## sim0670

Early Day Motion said:


> This is one of those italian conundrums. The law requires you to register as resident after you have been physically in Italy for more than 90 days, but the powers-that- be do everything they can to make it practically impossible to do so. Having been through this very complicated process, I can tell you how I did it.
> 1. Go to the anagraphic office in the Commune, where at least they have the correct forms for you to fill in.
> 2. You will need to show your rental agreement, and a bank statement, to show you aren't intending to be a drain on the state.
> 3. You need to have a couple of passport photos of yourself, and the appropriate stamps for payment for the application.
> 3. You will need to have proof of appropriate medical insurance for a year from the date of application (they will not accept the E111, even though not to accept it is against EU rules....they just won't; the application form states this specifically); friends of mine in Lucca were given the run-around on this point, and were told their pre-existing insurance was insufficient; the day before I presented myself at the Commune, I signed up online for the most expensive global health insurance programme I could find, downloaded and printed off the insurance schedule, took it with me to the Commune and got the appropriate box ticked, and then afterwards came home and cancelled the insurance immediately, while still within the 'cooling off' period. (Some might think this questionable; in Italian terms, I think it would be considered merely 'practical').
> 4. I have to say, I also took my italian lawyer with me to be the interface with the perfectly pleasant lady behind the glass screen. This was probably the best thing I could have done in order to avoid throwing in the towel, and succumbing to apoplexy.
> 5. Then, once they've done you the honour of processing the form, you need to wait at home for the surprise visit of the vigili, to check that you do indeed live there.....and only several weeks/months after that will you receive the letter that tells you that you can now go and collect your identity card.
> 
> Simple, really.
> 
> Of course, nobody will notice or be in the least bothered if you don't take out residency. It has some advantages, re getting slightly reduced utility bills, and being able to buy and sell property with 'prima casa' status; other than that, though, if it's going to be a major hassle, I wouldn't bother.
> 
> Hope this helps.


Hi, just read your post regarding residency, we are thinking it is time to get out. A series of events has lead us to this point. Excessive taxes for one on our assets in the UK. 
My question is this, how easy is it to cancel our residency? Can I just go to anegrafe and hand over our identity cards? Another problem can I sell our italian car without being resident. Bearing in mind we had to be resident to buy the damn thing. Would I be able to drive it without being resident for the few weeks leading up to our departure. We intend canceling as soon as our son finishes school in June, but we need to stay on until the end of July. Ideally we do not want to complete the tax return here in Italy so we need to keep our days under 183.


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## Rpats

I have never got residency so I dont know how to cancel it, but my question is - do you need to? 

Can you not just go back to being resident for tax purposes in the UK (assuming you are in Italy less than 6 months.) and keep the ID cards. Then you could carry on driving the car etc

Just my thoughts, you need to check with an accountant or lawyer


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## NickZ

Don't confuse tax residency with anagraphe residency.

Under Italian tax law if you meet one of the three tests for the majority of the year you're tax resident. 

1) Registered resident

OR

2) normal domicile

OR

3) Centre of economic interests.

Under a change to the law in I think 2008 when you cancel residency the town has the obligation to make sure you've made a full break with Italy . They watch you for three years. Now this of course assumes the town is awake. If they notice they are obliged to report you.


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## sim0670

NickZ said:


> Don't confuse tax residency with anagraphe residency.
> 
> Under Italian tax law if you meet one of the three tests for the majority of the year you're tax resident.
> 
> 1) Registered resident
> 
> OR
> 
> 2) normal domicile
> 
> OR
> 
> 3) Centre of economic interests.
> 
> Under a change to the law in I think 2008 when you cancel residency the town has the obligation to make sure you've made a full break with Italy . They watch you for three years. Now this of course assumes the town is awake. If they notice they are obliged to report you.


Thanks for the information. We are making the break and the earliest we can come back will be after the end of this italian tax year. Then it will just be holidays spending hopefully 4- 8 weeks a year enjoying ourselves and not dealing with the day to day Italian headaches. 
Our town is awake for sure, you might have read my other posts. We had a nice visit from the Guardia Finance last year. We had a fine for non disclosure of assets on our tax return. A real headache, 3 commercialista's looked at our situation and we had 3 different answers.
The police told us they checked our utility bills, this gave they enough info to prove we lived in Italy. Actual residency didn't matter. Its all about how many days you live here. 
Partly one of the many reasons for us leaving Italy.Its a policed state, and we don't want to spend our time looking over our shoulders waiting for the next austerity measure to come into force to bail Italy out of its economic crisis. Unfortunately the expat will be picking up the bill for some time, easy target. The police told us this! They have also open the door to USA to exchange info like taxes, banking and assets. 

The officials can watch me all they want.

Italy has had enough of my cash, the sad thing is Italy has alway been in a financial mess, always has and always will. Its a money pit like no other.
Good luck to anyone living here with any kind of sizable asset, pension, savings or property. Its all taxable to the point of ridiculous! 
Sorry to go on, but.....my rose coloured specks have long since been removed.


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## marenostrum

sim0670 said:


> Thanks for the information. We are making the break and the earliest we can come back will be after the end of this italian tax year. Then it will just be holidays spending hopefully 4- 8 weeks a year enjoying ourselves and not dealing with the day to day Italian headaches.
> Our town is awake for sure, you might have read my other posts. We had a nice visit from the Guardia Finance last year. We had a fine for non disclosure of assets on our tax return. A real headache, 3 commercialista's looked at our situation and we had 3 different answers.
> The police told us they checked our utility bills, this gave they enough info to prove we lived in Italy. Actual residency didn't matter. Its all about how many days you live here.
> Partly one of the many reasons for us leaving Italy.Its a policed state, and we don't want to spend our time looking over our shoulders waiting for the next austerity measure to come into force to bail Italy out of its economic crisis. Unfortunately the expat will be picking up the bill for some time, easy target. The police told us this! They have also open the door to USA to exchange info like taxes, banking and assets.
> 
> The officials can watch me all they want.
> 
> Italy has had enough of my cash, the sad thing is Italy has alway been in a financial mess, always has and always will. Its a money pit like no other.
> Good luck to anyone living here with any kind of sizable asset, pension, savings or property. Its all taxable to the point of ridiculous!
> Sorry to go on, but.....my rose coloured specks have long since been removed.


I find your attitude quite offensive.
I know that Italy has a lot of problems, especially bureocracy and tax evasion however looking at where you are from I do not think you have a right to judge us.
On the subject of tax, your country has one of the worst inheritance tax regimes in the world, 40% above 325k. Italy has 4% above 1 million. So yes you do get taxed to the hill in Italy but at least you can leave something to your children instead of passing onto the government. You may say that your government probably spend its money better than Berl and you may be right but I know people who resent paying uk iht because they feel its tax money going to either immigrants or local dole scroungers...
I must assume however, that in typical italian fashion you have made "arrangements" to avoid uk iht...


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## BBCWatcher

There's no perfect country in the world -- not that I've found, anyway. Thank goodness there's a variety of countries with different attributes to suit different tastes. If you enjoy skiing don't choose Singapore, for example.

It's correct to say that Italy has comparatively high taxes _in general_ (as a percentage of official GDP, for example). Italy's taxes aren't the highest in the world or even in Europe, but they are high. Tax enforcement is vigorous, too.

Taxes are not high for everyone, though. As Marenostrum points out, and provided you follow the rules carefully, Italy's tax system is rather favorable to retired persons, particularly those bequeathing estates to heirs.

Moreover, taxes are only one factor among many. Denmark, for example, has the either the highest or the second highest average tax burden in the world (as a percentage of GDP). At the same time, according to surveys, Danes are often the happiest people in the world on average. I visited a Danish ice cream shop recently, and that made me happy.


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## marenostrum

BBCWatcher said:


> There's no perfect country in the world -- not that I've found, anyway. Thank goodness there's a variety of countries with different attributes to suit different tastes. If you enjoy skiing don't choose Singapore, for example.
> 
> It's correct to say that Italy has comparatively high taxes _in general_ (as a percentage of official GDP, for example). Italy's taxes aren't the highest in the world or even in Europe, but they are high. Tax enforcement is vigorous, too.
> 
> Taxes are not high for everyone, though. As Marenostrum points out, and provided you follow the rules carefully, Italy's tax system is rather favorable to retired persons, particularly those bequeathing estates to heirs.


Exactly.

I would think that if he he thought hard about his tax position (and I may be wrong but I am assuming that he is retired and has assets >325k) he would be better off in Italy.
I would rather have a GdF guy turning up with his shiny uniform chasing me for some unpaid IVIE than a dour letter from HMRC chasing me for 40% of whatever I have above 325k....


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## BBCWatcher

Except they wouldn't be chasing you very far because you'd be dead. They would chase your heirs, though.


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## Rpats

as somebody who is still thinking about whether to spend more or less than half the year in Italy, can anyone enlighten me re tax implications? I understand the point above re IHT but what is the income tax rate and what are the taxes relating to assets in the UK?


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## BBCWatcher

I'll try to summarize. If you spend 183 days per year or more in Italy, Italy will almost always consider you a tax resident. (There are a few obvious exceptions such as foreign military and foreign diplomats.) If you spend fewer than 183 days per year in Italy, Italy might still consider you a tax resident, but it depends on additional facts and evidence.

Italy will always tax Italian-source income regardless of whether you are tax resident or not.

If you are a tax resident of Italy your worldwide income is subject to tax, with exceptions only as provided in applicable tax treaties (if any). There is also a tax on your foreign real estate and foreign financial assets, although you're supposed to get credit against the Italian taxes for foreign taxes paid on those assets. (If the foreign taxes are equal or higher, the Italian taxes are supposed to be zero.) The foreign real estate tax rate is 0.76% of the value of the property, and the value is the purchase price that appeared on the purchase agreement (if it exists) or, failing that, the fair market value. The tax on foreign financial assets is 0.10% (through 2012) and 0.15% (tax year 2013), except that accounts in EU/EEA countries are taxed at a flat 34.20 euro each.

One way to avoid the foreign financial assets tax is to simply have an Italian custodian for your assets, if that makes sense.

Italian capital gains taxes are based on the after-inflation gain (if any), which is nice.

Taxes are subject to change, of course. Again, tax treaties can have an impact, particularly on those foreign real estate and foreign financial asset taxes. (Indeed, the EU is not happy about Italy's 34.20 euro tax, and it might violate the EU treaty. We'll see.)


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## Rpats

many thanks


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## Lonely

sim0670 said:


> the sad thing is Italy has alway been in a financial mess, always has and always will. Its a money pit like no other.


Don't worry, when your Royals end the parade, it will be UK's turn.

Its system is broke too.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15820601


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## alaric

My family and I have just arrived in Italy. I still own the family home in the UK, with the plan being to return there after my common law wife's contract ends. Reading up on the tax position, it appears I am liable for a tax of 0.76% of the value of the property per year. There is also mention of deduction of council tax, which in my case is £2400. Also, that if the liability is less than 200 euros there's nothing to pay. The difference between my council tax and Italy foreign property tax is £184, so it appears I've just about managed to avoid the tax. If the council tax is not deducted, however, I'll be stung twice, which should not happen under the double taxation treaties etc. Can anyone confirm whether UK council tax is indeed deducted or not?

Actually I just looked at this page and under section 2.3.2 it does say that tax paid on the assets in the foreign country can be deducted. But I still have to pay the difference. It doesn't seem to be something to be too scared about though, unless you don't declare.

http://www.mondaq.com/x/183210/Inco...cial+assets+owned+abroad+by+Italian+residents

I should probably get an Italian tax advisor. 

Thanks.

Sean.


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## NickZ

Unless things have changed UK council tax isn't deducted. UK is the only government not covered.

There is an clarification on the property abroad tax issued by the agenzia Entrate.

http://www.agenziaentrate.gov.it/wp...ERES&CACHEID=3e3d10004bd500bbb110f7ad8102fe77

If you look at pg 28 you'll see council tax isn't deducted.


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## alaric

Is there anyone on the forum that's paying this tax and paying UK council tax?

Sean.


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## macki

*non-resident without hassles?*



sim0670 said:


> Having said all this we lived in Italy without residency for the 1st year without any hassles.. The hassles came later..........!


Care to elaborate on the later hassle part ... ?

Thanks!


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## rfs799

Go online to the comune di (Perugia or whatever city/town you live in). Look up 'modulistica' or something similar--it means forms. You should try to find something saying 'Anagrafe' and then find 'dichiarazione di residenza' and then print out this form somewhere and fill it in and then you would have to go to the Comune in person with your British id, proof of funds and more than likely proof of private comprehensive health care or whatever you have from the NHS translated into Italian. If you already have jobs, it is much easier.


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