# Molested at Katameya Club



## ArabRose

Watch out Ladies who goes to the Katameya Club alone. 
One of my girlfriend was molested at the Katameya Heights Club a couple of weeks back. The golf caddy offered to carry her golf set for her and took the opportunity to rest his hand on her breast. She thought it was accidental and took no notice of it but when she arrived at the driving range (and she was all alone there), the golf caddy went behind her, grabbed her and rubbed himself against her. She was paralysed with fright and kept telling the guy to go away which he did eventually. 
She complained to the management who refused to believe her and called her bluff because according to the Management, 'this has never happened before' (i.e. no one has ever complained about it before). 
Sexual harrassment is very common here in Egypt and it seems like men have the right to sexually harrassed women and made no apologies about it.
My friend is now mentally distressed by the whole incident but didn't know where to seek help. She was too frightened to tell anyone and kept the incident to herself till last week. 
My advice to all ladies here is: if you have to go to play golf, go with another friend. Never go to the golf range by yourself.


----------



## MaidenScotland

Rose,
Sadly it is common for this to happen here and it is why you very rarely see Egyptian women walking alone. My friend in Maadi was sitting in her car and a boy passed on a cycle reached in and grabbed her breasts. Sexual harassment is an every day occurrence. Never be alone with a man under any circumstances, never close the door to your apartment if you have a workman in 
and always have your maid about when he is in.
Google says the biggest hits for porn sites originate from Cairo.


----------



## Beatle

MaidenScotland said:


> Rose,
> Sadly it is common for this to happen here and it is why you very rarely see Egyptian women walking alone. My friend in Maadi was sitting in her car and a boy passed on a cycle reached in and grabbed her breasts. Sexual harassment is an every day occurrence. Never be alone with a man under any circumstances, never close the door to your apartment if you have a workman in
> and always have your maid about when he is in.
> Google says the biggest hits for porn sites originate from Cairo.


These stories are really terrible but I have to say I have had guys grab my breasts twice in England. Plus a few days after I came back to England from Cairo on my last visit, a man tried to grab me on the street.


----------



## MaidenScotland

Beatle said:


> These stories are really terrible but I have to say I have had guys grab my breasts twice in England. Plus a few days after I came back to England from Cairo on my last visit, a man tried to grab me on the street.


Yes it is all over the world but it really is rife here and we are chatting about what happens here not in the UK or elsewhere.
Stay safe
Maiden


----------



## Beatle

MaidenScotland said:


> Yes it is all over the world but it really is rife here and we are chatting about what happens here not in the UK or elsewhere.
> Stay safe
> Maiden


I guess people are reading this site who are considering moving to Egypt and I agree that sexual harassment is really bad in Egypt and the incident in the golf club was horrific for the person concerned. But I have been touched/followed/flashed at more times in England than in Egypt, so I just wanted to give that perspective to the conversation. Obviously one of the great things about this site is that people are able to give their experiences both in Egypt and from their own countries.


----------



## MaidenScotland

Beatle said:


> I guess people are reading this site who are considering moving to Egypt and I agree that sexual harassment is really bad in Egypt and the incident in the golf club was horrific for the person concerned. But I have been touched/followed/flashed at more times in England than in Egypt, so I just wanted to give that perspective to the conversation. Obviously one of the great things about this site is that people are able to give their experiences both in Egypt and from their own countries.



Yes there is sexual harassment all over the world and I would think you are in the minority if it has happend more to you in the UK than here. I had never known anyone to be sexually harassed in the street until I moved here and I am in my 50s, I cannot think of one friend here western and Egyptian who has not been sexually harassed either physically, verbally or both. 
I live in a very nice building with armed security sitting outside and yet if I stand there waiting on my friend to pick me up I get without fail someone stopping in a car to ask me how much. I have lived in the same area for years used the same shops passed the same garage to go to work for years and as the only westerner they know me and still I get whispered comments about my body etc.
Don't forget that the newspapers here are censored and they do not report a fraction of crime and only last year was the first time a woman could take a man to court for harassement. Women here do not speak out as the Egyptian/Arab way of thinking tends to be it must be her fault the man is never to blame.


----------



## MaidenScotland

Just read a newspaper from December 19 2008
In one day in November police arrested 300 men on suspicion of sexually harrasing women, 50 already in the month of December have been arrested
A study by the Egyptian Centre for Women's Rights found that 83 per cent of Egyptian women and 98 per cent of foreign women in this country so dependent on western tourists experience public sexual harassment, including explicit comments, groping, men exposing themselves and assault and very few of these women report the incidents because the police give them such a hard time,
Some women come here and think because it is a muslim country they will be safe from this sort of behaviour... how wrong they are, we have had in this forum men constantly trying to approach women offering to be their friend, teach them arabic, show them around etc, it doesn't happen on any other forum.


----------



## Beatle

MaidenScotland said:


> Just read a newspaper from December 19 2008
> In one day in November police arrested 300 men on suspicion of sexually harrasing women, 50 already in the month of December have been arrested
> A study by the Egyptian Centre for Women's Rights found that 83 per cent of Egyptian women and 98 per cent of foreign women in this country so dependent on western tourists experience public sexual harassment, including explicit comments, groping, men exposing themselves and assault and very few of these women report the incidents because the police give them such a hard time,
> Some women come here and think because it is a muslim country they will be safe from this sort of behaviour... how wrong they are, we have had in this forum men constantly trying to approach women offering to be their friend, teach them arabic, show them around etc, it doesn't happen on any other forum.


I don't disagree that there are serious sexual harrassment problems in Egypt. And obviously I and my friends have been lucky in our experiences in Egypt. I also agree that people have to be aware of the problems before they move over. I just have a different perspective, possibly because I work in a field in England where I have often encountered examples of sexual harassment at work and people viewing pornography etc at work. However, I respect the fact that your experience is different to mine.


----------



## MaidenScotland

Hi Beatle,
If only we could rid the world of this sexual harassment and pornography what a safer world it would be for us women.


----------



## ArabRose

Beatle, I think it is not so much sexual harrassment that we are facing here in Egypt but the fact that it is OKAY to sexually harrassed women that is the key concern. Sure, sexual harrassment, molestation, etc happen everywhere in the world but what is more critical is what happens when these cases are reported? 
When confronted in UK or in USA, authorities at workplaces or in public offices take a serious view of the incident and the case is duly investigated. The accused, if found to be true will be disciplined or punished. The woman involved in the incident is seen to be a victim of the unfortunate event.
But here as in the case of Katemaya Country Club, this issue was swept under the carpet immediately! In fact, the Management made it seem like my friend was the one who was responsible and as a woman, she should not go round 'seducing' men in her golf atttire! (I am sure you know how golf attire looks like).
I am reminded of a case I knew in Kenya a couple of years ago, where the woman who was raped by several men was thrown to jail because she was to be blamed for seducing the men! 
This is the difference between sexual harrassment here in Egypt and in the UK. There is no recourse for women and like I mentioned in my earlier posting, men see it as their right to sexually harrasss or molest or even rape women, and women are to be BLAMED for allowing this to happen to her. At the same time, authorities close their eyes towards complaints because well, they have too much of other work to do, besides, who cares about a little stupid woman complaining about a man molesting her? It happens on a daily basis and if the authorities were to investigate each case, they would have to hire a million people to do that. 
You are lucky that you weren't sexually harrassed here in Egypt (I don't know how long you have stayed here) but in my years of living here in Egypt (I lived here when I was a young woman and now I am back again after many years), I have been molested time and again; not so much because I was dressing seductively, but simply because I was a foreigner walking alone in the streets of Egypt.


----------



## MensEtManus

Once upon a time, I was all day in the courtrooms, and a rape case came up. The lawyer of the rapist convinced the judge that raping a women is impossible and he convinced the judge by performing in front of him a simple exercise of wits:

He brought out a ball pen with the cap of the pen. He gave the judge the pen and the lawyer held the cap. He challenged the judge to insert the pen inside the cap. Every time the judge tried to insert the pen in the cap, the lawyer would move the cap. Hence by that type of analogy the lawyer claimed that the woman was the one that allowed herself to be raped. Hence, the rapist is not at fault. 

Unless there becomes some type of punishment for the action of males in Egypt, things will only get worse.


----------



## Beatle

ArabRose said:


> Beatle, I think it is not so much sexual harrassment that we are facing here in Egypt but the fact that it is OKAY to sexually harrassed women that is the key concern. Sure, sexual harrassment, molestation, etc happen everywhere in the world but what is more critical is what happens when these cases are reported?
> .


I agree that this is a real problem in Egypt


----------



## Beatle

MensEtManus said:


> He brought out a ball pen with the cap of the pen. He gave the judge the pen and the lawyer held the cap. He challenged the judge to insert the pen inside the cap. Every time the judge tried to insert the pen in the cap, the lawyer would move the cap. Hence by that type of analogy the lawyer claimed that the woman was the one that allowed herself to be raped. Hence, the rapist is not at fault.
> 
> Unless there becomes some type of punishment for the action of males in Egypt, things will only get worse.


That's a shocking argument from the lawyer.


----------



## NZCowboy

*Fairy Tale*

Once upon a time .... you a troll?

You are just making this up ... this would have never happen in a court. 
If it did the prosecution lawyer shouldn't be practising law, and the judge sacked. 
The Judge should have grabbed the lawyer with the pen cap by the wrist and forced the pen into the cap .... and said this is rape.
The control of the situation has been taken away from the woman.



MensEtManus said:


> Once upon a time, I was all day in the courtrooms, and a rape case came up. The lawyer of the rapist convinced the judge that raping a women is impossible and he convinced the judge by performing in front of him a simple exercise of wits:
> 
> He brought out a ball pen with the cap of the pen. He gave the judge the pen and the lawyer held the cap. He challenged the judge to insert the pen inside the cap. Every time the judge tried to insert the pen in the cap, the lawyer would move the cap. Hence by that type of analogy the lawyer claimed that the woman was the one that allowed herself to be raped. Hence, the rapist is not at fault.
> 
> Unless there becomes some type of punishment for the action of males in Egypt, things will only get worse.


----------



## topcat83

NZCowboy said:


> Once upon a time .... you a troll?
> 
> You are just making this up ... this would have never happen in a court.
> If it did the prosecution lawyer shouldn't be practising law, and the judge sacked.
> The Judge should have grabbed the lawyer with the pen cap by the wrist and forced the pen into the cap .... and said this is rape.
> The control of the situation has been taken away from the woman.


NZ Cowboy - what an awful thing to say.... I can totally believe that this happened in an Egyptian court. What the judge should have done, and what he actually did, are totally different things.

Unfortunately not all cultures are like New Zealand, and treat men and women as equals. Although I've only been to Egypt on holiday, I have been 'rubbed up against' by a boat boy on our dive boat, who seemed to thing that this was acceptable practice. This is a part of the world where men really do think 'women are to blame for tempting them' - and I guess Egypt is considered fairly tame when compared to some other Middle Eastern countries.

Girls - I'm pleased to say that not all NZ men over here are quite so non-understanding about the issues that females have in other parts of the world.


----------



## MensEtManus

Once upon a time refers to the past as in something that happened a long time ago. Regardless, you might want to check your manners because you quite honestly sound ignorant as you have no idea how courts in Egypt are run. You simply assume that you know everything about the Egyptian courts, and it is so obvious your understanding is quite limited.

Sadly, the story is real and not made up. 

Since 1904, in Egypt, there was a law that if a woman was raped, her rapist can marry her and the rapist is pardoned. The law was enacted in 1999, but several districts tend to ignore it to this day, and if no one brings up that it was removed, then in fact, the victim marries her biggest nightmare. Now imagine a judge that used to always pardon the rapists is now told not do so because only a few years back it became unlawful - do you really think he likes to change his mind? On the contrary, he is probably upset. Thus, any lawyer giving him any type of a so called argument, would probably make the judge end up giving silly decisions. Egypt also suffers from honor killing, where victims are sometimes deemed shameful by her family members and the head of the family agrees to having her killed to restore honor for the family (obviously, not a legal action, but it happens).

Similarly, most rape cases in Libya end up in marriage, although, not specifically mandating the judge to force the victim to marry her rapist, but if the judge finds it as the best action to protect the victims' honor, then the judge agrees to end the case if they marry.

In Morocco, rapists are pardoned if they marry their victim (as long as the victim was a minor). 

In Afghanistan, marital rape is legal.

The list goes on....

In general, cases in Egypt are not won by evidence, but by contacts. You could be found guilty for one case today, and tomorrow the exact same case can be found not guilty. Hence, it is relatively a gamble to go to court. Several folks in Egypt tend not to go through the courts and simply try to get justice themselves.


----------



## ArabRose

Er. I guess before anyone of these guys from these countries rapes a girl, he should ask: " Where are you from?" "O, you are from United States, or UK or Australia, etc? " Time for me to rape you so you will marry me if you want justice from the court. Also. please sponsor me to your country so I can have residence there... haha.
BTW, MensEtManus, how do you know so much about Egyptian court system? I know you said you are a lawyer but you cannot attend court in Egypt unless you are licensed here. So I guess you must be an Egyptian pretending to be a foreigner on this site or that you must have paid some money to get your American license recognized here so you can represent your clients in court. Any other reaaons?


----------



## MaidenScotland

It is easy enough to find out what Men has posted, there are women here in this country that are trying to fight the legal system for woman that have been abused and can tell you the laws.
I know an Englishman who is a lawyer in London and he comes to Cairo every 3 years for 6 months and works in a very prominent legal firm here in the city he speaks and writes Arabic fluently and there fore is able to verbally translate and read documents for non Arabic speakers and in doing so I imagine he has a great grasp of the legal system here.
Honour Killings go on here and thats fact.. it is illegal but it still goes on we read about it in the newspapers.
The if you rape a woman you can be let off if you marry her is common in Africa, just cast your mind back to 2006 when the Sudanese man had to marry his goat because he was caught having sex with it!


----------



## NZCowboy

Mens
So your analogy implies that there is no rapes in Egypt. Rape is illegal in Egypt.
Ministry of Interior figures says that there are over 20 000 rapes in Egypt per year, but general concenus is that you can multiply it by at least 5.

People like Jasvindr Sanghera co-founder of "Karma Nirvana" says honour and perpetuation of the myth that the women is to blame (as used in your analogy) why many cases of domestic violence, rape and honour-based crimes go unreported.

We need to impower people and stop perpetuating the myth that the person brought the rape upon themselves. 

In my opinion the problem is Article 17 of Egpytian Penal Code. This article gives judges discretionary powers to radically reduce the punishment laid down for a crime where they decide that the circumstances of the crime justify their doing so.
Judges reflect the culture of the society in which they live and will apply the morals and values of that society in their decisions. In crimes which judges perceive as having a moral aspect, this results in wildly different verdicts that are often dependent on which governorate the judge is in Egypt. This leads to corruption.
In my opinion you probably saw Article 17 at work rather than inability of getting a rape conviction.


----------



## MaidenScotland

One person can read an article and see something different from another persons perception of the same article.
To me Mens was saying that being raped here is is just not an attack on a persons body but an attack on their morals as there are men here who still believe that a woman cannot get raped unless she wants to be and not just uneducated men but men in powerful positions. Men are portrayed here as the stronger sex if they are so strong can they not deal with their sexual feelings without sexually molesting women.
We are told to cover up... why? 
Women who are completely covered will tell you that they also get harassed and molested.
Instead of putting the emphasis on women not to be sexually alluring lol, men should be arrested for the attack and no blame should be put on the woman regardless of where she was or how she was dressed.

Bromide injections for all unmarried men here just might be the solution harsh yes but when you see the figures for sexual harassment here then it might not be harsh enough.


----------



## MensEtManus

Just to clear a few things up: I am not a lawyer nor do I claim to know anything. On the contrary, I would prefer if folks assumed I knew nothing. At least, I don't pretend to know something, but realistically I do not.

In terms of women's rights and women's movements in Egypt, I cannot claim to be on the forefront trying to help, but I do try to help bring back some of the glory of Alexandria. Alexandria long ago was a very different city. Women were free to do anything they wanted. Nowadays, you walk in the streets and you see men attack women (any woman) with no fear of being punished. It really got me interested in the topic of Women's rights and I've simply been reading up a lot on those issues. I've been following Mona Eltahawy's blog a lot lately. 

In terms of the court systems, when you sadly have to go through it, you basically sit all day waiting to be called upon and while you are waiting you get to witness a lot of cases right in front of your eyes. Half of them make no sense. Unfortunately, I have gone to court multiple times for various reasons (don't get alarmed, they have been work related), so as the sayings goes "practice makes perfect" - I simply get to learn and hear a few things more about the courts than your average joe.


----------



## Beatle

MaidenScotland said:


> We are told to cover up... why?
> 
> Bromide injections for all unmarried men here just might be the solution harsh yes but when you see the figures for sexual harassment here then it might not be harsh enough.


I presume it is suggested that expatriates cover up out of respect for the Islamic faith?

In my opinion there is still a lot of work to be done in the field of women's rights in Egypt. This includes increasing the numbers of women in the judiciary. Rape is unacceptable in any culture or society.

However all the issues referred to in this thread e.g. exercise of judical discretion; honour killings; how to deal with rape victims etc are thorny issues that have needed to be addressed in the UK (I am unaware of the way these issues are addressed in other judicial systems). The judiciary (and police) have historically been criticised for how rape was dealt with in the courts in the UK. Women can still be considered to be "asking for it" due to their attire/sexual history/ how much they have drunk etc. A 2007 report indicated that rape was underreported by around 75% or more in the UK and a number of reasons are attributed to this, including the stigma associated with being raped.

I am aware we are talking about the problems in Egypt but in light of the fact that countries like England have struggled to address these problems, then it seems harsh to single Egyptian men out for bromide injections.


----------



## MaidenScotland

I presume it is suggested that expatriates cover up out of respect for the Islamic faith?

I dress as a westerner, I put a coat or shawl on until I reach my destination. I cover up to try and minimise the sexual harassment, it doesn't work I am middle aged and yet young men still leer and pass comments.
I pass Egyptian girls with the hajjab and jeans so tight they must have been sprayed on and walking with a wiggle that is beyond belief. Tops that cling to every curve.

We as woman are asked to cover up so we do not inflame men, my argument is that as men here are considered so strong then they should be able to control their urges . Honour killings in the UK are imported from other cultures they are not a British way of life. Yes woman in the UK can and still do get accused of asking for it but the thing is they can complain to a higher authority.


----------



## Beatle

MaidenScotland said:


> We as woman are asked to cover up so we do not inflame men, my argument is that as men here are considered so strong then they should be able to control their urges . Honour killings in the UK are imported from other cultures they are not a British way of life. Yes woman in the UK can and still do get accused of asking for it but the thing is they can complain to a higher authority.


The former issue ultimately relates to religious beliefs and practices and as such I wouldn't ever enter into a debate about it on this website.

In relation to "Honor killings in the UK are imported from other cultures they are not a British way of life", as a British Muslim I am somewhat bemused by that statement. It is possible to be British and come from another culture and practice aspects of that culture in the UK, no matter how repugnant those practices may be. To suggest otherwise would be offensive to many British Muslims in this country. Ultimately if those practices are not in accordance with British legislation, then the perpertrators are (hopefully) accountable for their practices. 

The point I was trying to make in respect of the final point you raise is that for many years in the UK, there were complaints by women's rights groups (amongst others) that the higher authorities in the UK (i.e. the judiciary and police) did not take the issue of rape seriously.


----------



## MaidenScotland

There is no honour in killing.
I have never for one moment considered this as a religious practice.
As we seem to have gone right off the topic warning women not to go to a certain golf course on their own I will close the thread.


----------



## MaidenScotland

*thread closed as gone off topic*

snip


----------

