# Credit Cards



## MaidenScotland

My debit card has been cloned and up till June 1 they have taken 3,500 pounds sterling from my bank account.

Today they withdrew money and bought an electrical item for almost 5000 LE... 

Credit card theft never used to be a problem here... 

Do not let your card out of your sight.


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## AndrewAlex

oh man, really sorry to hear that, must be devastating.

Thank you for sharing this advice, my partner and I will be extra vigilant when we're there.

Hopefully, your insurance covers your loss somewhat.


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## aykalam

Sorry to hear this, MS

My husband's UK credit card was cloned whilst on holiday in Egypt years ago, I think it must be at least 5 years now. So nothing new there.


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## Lanason

How was it cloned?


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## MaidenScotland

Lanason said:


> How was it cloned?


 No idea.. just back from the police and they told me

this is not an Egypt bank so not my problem


they cannot make copy of cards


however I have to go back to Agouza police station tomorrow and to the magamma for some reason.

One of the transactions says Ministry of Agriculture..... has anyone got any idea what this could be?

They took money this morning and tried again at lunch time but it was denied.. I told the police this and said I know where they tried to take money and the time.. can you not go to the bank and see if they have photo... 

Havent I always said crime here is big time, you just cant get it into the statistics..


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## MaidenScotland

looking to track down these shops 

29-30/5 nike £267.58
> 29-30/5 diamond international £581.35
> 29-31/5 apple computer systems £683.79
> 

has anyone got any idea what diamond international is/where?

or this one

8-9/5 hussein el gail £463.82
> 8-9/5 hussein el gail £496.57


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## AndrewAlex

Hmm, Ministry of Agriculture sounds suspiciously like a Nigerian scam. You didn't give up your last 3 security digits of your card anywhere recently?

I'll dig a bit deeper and see what I can come up with.


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## AndrewAlex

Diamond Int. = Tanzanite, Diamond, Eternity Bands, Duty Free Jewelry | DiamondsInternational.com

Could someone be buying a nice present?


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## AndrewAlex

This is a typical Nigerian scam email:
Nigerian e-mail scam

Maybe they have evolved to credit card scams, in any case they have used the "Ministry of Agriculture" as a credibility builder for years.


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## GM1

Diamond: Diamond International Systems, Mohandeseen, Giza, Egypt | Computer Hardware | Yellow.com.eg | 7 Sphinx Sq.

Hussein el Gail could be: Hussein el Ogail located on Zamalek: TV Dealers & Locations | Hisense


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## DeadGuy

Sorry to hear this........

Have you been using that card online? Or let any IT technician near your laptop/iPad etc.?

Also, is your internet connection at home secured?


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## MaidenScotland

DeadGuy said:


> Sorry to hear this........
> 
> Have you been using that card online? Or let any IT technician near your laptop/iPad etc.?
> 
> Also, is your internet connection at home secured?




only thing i have bought on line is with amazon.co.uk who ever has it is also taking money from an ATM

I do not use internet banking, there is no data on my computer,


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## hurghadapat

MaidenScotland said:


> looking to track down these shops
> 
> 29-30/5 nike £267.58
> > 29-30/5 diamond international £581.35
> > 29-31/5 apple computer systems £683.79
> >
> 
> has anyone got any idea what diamond international is/where?
> 
> or this one
> 
> 8-9/5 hussein el gail £463.82
> > 8-9/5 hussein el gail £496.57


Maiden it's not your problem to be trying to track these shops....as long as you have made your bank aware of what is going on and they have put a stop on the card they will sort it from there and should refund the money to your account.They will probably send you a form out which you will have to fill in and return to them.Suprised that they didn't put a stop on your card when they saw an unusual amount of activity on it....especially when it was in Egypt.


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## MaidenScotland

GM1 said:


> Diamond: Diamond International Systems, Mohandeseen, Giza, Egypt | Computer Hardware | Yellow.com.eg | 7 Sphinx Sq.
> 
> Hussein el Gail could be: Hussein el Ogail located on Zamalek: TV Dealers & Locations | Hisense


Thanks I think you have cracked it

they have been to apple and bought something and twice radwan el ogeil in zamalek.. plus best buys,,, and one time to Nike.. all quite local to me


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## MaidenScotland

hurghadapat said:


> Maiden it's not your problem to be trying to track these shops....as long as you have made your bank aware of what is going on and they have put a stop on the card they will sort it from there and should refund the money to your account.They will probably send you a form out which you will have to fill in and return to them.Suprised that they didn't put a stop on your card when they saw an unusual amount of activity on it....especially when it was in Egypt.




I know its not my job.. but the Egyptian police are doing nothing... imagining saying it cant be copied.. I did say to him Are you telling me that Egyptians are not clever enough to do this and he laughed


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## canuck2010

We have a CIB debit card with a pin. While chatting to the bank manager one day when we had a problem with our card, he mentioned that many shops in Cairo are lazy and don't actually bother keying in the code to enter the pin when you pay for something. Instead, all they have to do is scan the debit card and the money is deducted. Basically, the onus for security is not with the bank. This seems like a huge loop hole for security. His advice was to only use the debit card at an official branch bank machine. If there is a problem with the card, their first action is to cancel the card.
---

Oh I see you have an international card...does it have a security chip? Those are near impossible to clone, as you need the pin code and even an extra password before anything is purchased.


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## MaidenScotland

canuck2010 said:


> We have a CIB debit card with a pin. While chatting to the bank manager one day when we had a problem with our card, he mentioned that many shops in Cairo are lazy and don't actually bother keying in the code to enter the pin when you pay for something. Instead, all they have to do is scan the debit card and the money is deducted. Basically, the onus for security is not with the bank. This seems like a huge loop hole for security. His advice was to only use the debit card at an official branch bank machine. If there is a problem with the card, their first action is to cancel the card.
> ---
> 
> Oh I see you have an international card...does it have a security chip? Those are near impossible to clone, as you need the pin code and even an extra password before anything is purchased.




It is quite scary as they are using the ATM beside me... although all the other shops are quite local, it seems they must live in this area,


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## MaidenScotland

canuck2010 said:


> We have a CIB debit card with a pin. While chatting to the bank manager one day when we had a problem with our card, he mentioned that many shops in Cairo are lazy and don't actually bother keying in the code to enter the pin when you pay for something. Instead, all they have to do is scan the debit card and the money is deducted. Basically, the onus for security is not with the bank. This seems like a huge loop hole for security. His advice was to only use the debit card at an official branch bank machine. If there is a problem with the card, their first action is to cancel the card.
> ---
> 
> Oh I see you have an international card...does it have a security chip? Those are near impossible to clone, as you need the pin code and even an extra password before anything is purchased.




Yes I have a pin number but never an extra password


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## aykalam

MaidenScotland said:


> It is quite scary as they are using the ATM beside me... although all the other shops are quite local, it seems they must live in this area,


it is more than likely the card details were cloned in a local shop or even ATM. When I worked in the bank in London we once found a fake card swiping gadget attached to the security doors to the lobby, which people needed to access to reach the cash machines.

The same type of gadget can and has been used in shops by sales assistants. My own debit card was cloned this way in a dept store in London. ( although I could never prove it) 

Chip and PIN cards are more difficult to get "done", but not impossible. They just require more sophisticated tech.

No matter where and how, has your UK bank now cancelled the card?


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## MaidenScotland

aykalam said:


> it is more than likely the card details were cloned in a local shop or even ATM. When I worked in the bank in London we once found a fake card swiping gadget attached to the security doors to the lobby, which people needed to access to reach the cash machines.
> 
> The same type of gadget can and has been used in shops by sales assistants. My own debit card was cloned this way in a dept store in London. ( although I could never prove it)
> 
> Chip and PIN cards are more difficult to get "done", but not impossible. They just require more sophisticated tech.
> 
> No matter where and how, has your UK bank now cancelled the card?




Yes I have it cancelled... 
I have the feeling I know the shop it was done in...


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## Lanason

lets hope I can be of some help tomorrow ;-)


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## aykalam

MaidenScotland said:


> Yes I have it cancelled...
> I have the feeling I know the shop it was done in...


anyway, I wouldn't expect the police here to go all out in trying to catch them. My advice would be to concentrate on getting your money back from the UK bank... and not go back to that shop


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## hurghadapat

MaidenScotland said:


> I know its not my job.. but the Egyptian police are doing nothing... imagining saying it cant be copied.. I did say to him Are you telling me that Egyptians are not clever enough to do this and he laughed


Your bank will have it's own fraud department who will deal with it....and in all honesty did you really expect the police out there to do anything....


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## hurghadapat

MaidenScotland said:


> only thing i have bought on line is with amazon.co.uk who ever has it is also taking money from an ATM
> 
> I do not use internet banking, there is no data on my computer,


Just a little bit of useful info :-


What to Do If Someone Steals and Uses Your Debit Card
What to Do If Someone Tries to Buy Something With a Stolen Credit Card?

Print this article

Prevent Fraudulent Activity

Checking bank statements, either online or through paper copies, is essential in protecting yourself against credit card fraud. Look for any suspicious charges on your account and keep an accurate record of any charges you made yourself. Take into account any automatic drafts you may have forgotten about. Remember, your card does not need to be lost or stolen in order for someone to use it. Many times, card numbers are obtained illegally through websites (when you make online purchases) or simply by someone reading the numbers off of your card without you knowing. If you lose your card or it is stolen, be sure to contact your bank immediately. The bank will be able to cancel the card and check for any unauthorized charges.
Know What To Do

In the event that your debit card is used, don't panic. You will most likely be covered for any unauthorized charges on your card. Many banks have programs developed to protect customers against unauthorized purchases. If you notice any charges on your bank statement, contact your bank immediately. You can either call your banks branch or customer service department. Either number will be able to connect you with the department you need to speak with about your account. The first step will be to cancel your current debit card so no one can use it again. The bank will issue you a new card with an entirely different number that you will receive by mail. If you need a temporary card to use until then, many banks will issue them in the branch offices. A fraud account representative will be assigned to your case, and information will be collected to refund you the money taken from your account and, hopefully, discover who used your card.
What Not To Do

Do not, under any circumstances, try to figure out who used your card and approach him for it. If you have reason to believe it was a child, spouse or sibling, that is a different situation. However, if you believe your card was used illegally, it is important to let authorities deal with it instead of trying to do it yourself. In most cases, if someone is going to steal your account information and use your card, he is a criminal. Dealing with him could lead to more problems, and without going through the bank, you are not following proper reporting procedures and could risk not being compensated for the money lost. Let the professionals deal with it; that way you are sure you are covered and protected.


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## Whitedesert

One week ago somebody tried to buy something on my South African credit card in the US. In my case however credit card fraud is big business back home so my bank has one hell of a large fraud division, they immediately disapproved the transaction and blocked my card, and advised me. What happens is that the culprits realise the card is no good anymore and dump it. The bank reactivated it one week later (I need it!), and I have to advise them one day earlier of the details of use, for another 4 weeks, before they open it completely again. Works for me - have not had problems with my local HSBC debit card, but I keep to the rule of never allowing it out of my sight, which is not foolproof, but helps...


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## PoleDancer

In my experience:

Fraudulent charge to (UK) credit card: That's a fraud against the bank, not you. Provided the charge is identified / reported, it's not your problem. However it can still generate a great deal of admin / logistics hassle, though the banks do have quite a slick process.

Fraudulent charge to (UK) debit card: Money comes out of your account. Bank starts investigation when reported. Money only refunded when investigation completed.

Conclusion. Debit cards are dangerous. I use mine only with ATMs and for transactions with trusted online sellers (airline tickets being the most normal). Credit card for anything else.


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## hhaddad

This seems to be a case of cloning in the full sense of the word that is a card with all the same details includimg the pin code ,This is done by using a small piece of hardware which is inserted in the card slot of an ATM.The hardware has software which enables it to record all card details including pin codes on a memory chip .This data is then used to make the clone.When the clone card makes a transaction the bank can't tell the diferance and it's much more dificult to prove.


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## MaidenScotland

The matter is the hands of the police... my what big thighs they have,


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## MaidenScotland

btw the British Embassy was once a again a rock in time of crisis... NOT

I sent an email asking if I needed to get the official police report translated into English.. I got an automated email telling me they were out of the country and to read the website, which I had,


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## mamasue

MaidenScotland said:


> btw the British Embassy was once a again a rock in time of crisis... NOT
> 
> I sent an email asking if I needed to get the official police report translated into English.. I got an automated email telling me they were out of the country and to read the website, which I had,




The British Embassy are out of the country???


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## MaidenScotland

mamasue said:


> The British Embassy are out of the country???




Out of the office... my head is all over the place


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## Lanason

MaidenScotland said:


> Out of the office... my head is all over the place


Wear a Bandanna that should hold it together:eyebrows:

was my contact helpful?


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## MaidenScotland

Lanason said:


> Wear a Bandanna that should hold it together:eyebrows:
> 
> was my contact helpful?




You were helpful thank you your contact wouldn't pick up.


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## Lanason

MaidenScotland said:


> You were helpful thank you your contact wouldn't pick up.


really 
I'll have words 

you can try again tomorrow morning


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## MaidenScotland

No probs Adrian ... a lot more has come out but I cant say anything just now other than I will keep you all posted when the **** hits the fan,


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## MaidenScotland

My credit card had not been cloned... the maid had taken it and was using it... to the tune of 10,000 pound sterling in the last 6 weeks or so. Money has been taken from the ATM, and she has gone on a massive spending spree..
It seems she waited till I went out and came down into my apartment took the card used it and put it back, 
I went to the police Saturday night and of course she came with me, I told the police the bank had informed me that it had been used at midday at a bank.. I told the police that they should get the CCTV photo... and that must have made her panic as she later confessed to me what she had done. I suspect she was going to run away and had bought things to set up an apartment here or at least for her to sell, today we found a brand new satellite decoder with 6 months premium HD package paid for by yours truly, it was hidden behind the rice but it definitely was not there on Saturday lunch time.
If you see a Philipina dressed in nothing but the best and smelling of expensive perfume please let me know as she has done a runner...


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## CAIRODEMON

mamasue said:


> The British Embassy are out of the country???



Metaphorically, yes they are, and in all practicality, for all the help and assistance that they afford us, they may as well be!


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## canuck2010

Well, at least she confessed!


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## MaidenScotland

canuck2010 said:


> Well, at least she confessed!




Yes that has made me feel so much better...


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## Milouk84

And there's no way you can get your money back?


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## MaidenScotland

Milouk84 said:


> And there's no way you can get your money back?




I am not sure...


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## MaidenScotland

Actually it wasn't a credit card it was my debit card...


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## Milouk84

MaidenScotland said:


> Actually it wasn't a credit card it was my debit card...


Your money back from her!! Threatening that you'll report her to the police that she had confessed, and she'll have a bad crime record. And no one will ever hire her again in egypt and she might not be able to leave the country.


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## canuck2010

Well, if she ended up in a police station, she would be guaranteed of being abused. The threat of being sent to jail should motivate her to give the money back. On the other hand, the Philippine Embassy has been repatriating quite a few people back home for free since revolution if they are in dire need...though I wouldn't think being a thief qualifies! 

10,000 UK pounds must be well over a years salary for her, surely she must have sent most of it home by western union, in which case it would be nearly impossible to get back. Quite the predicament! Keep us updated eh?


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## Lanason

canuck2010 said:


> Well, if she ended up in a police station, she would be guaranteed of being abused. The threat of being sent to jail should motivate her to give the money back. On the other hand, the Philippine Embassy has been repatriating quite a few people back home for free since revolution if they are in dire need...though I wouldn't think being a thief qualifies!
> 
> 10,000 UK pounds must be well over a years salary for her, surely she must have sent most of it home by western union, in which case it would be nearly impossible to get back. Quite the predicament! Keep us updated eh?


I would throw the book at her - she abused your trust so she deserves everything she gets - no sympathy, no mercy.


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## MaidenScotland

JohnJ24 said:


> Who the hell, in their right minds, leaves a credit or debit card lying around unsecured in an apartment when they are not there and the pin number as well? Unbelievable





My pin number is not written down, she must have watched me over time when I was using it... my debit card was left in the house as I didn't want to take it out... 

I could ask who the hell carries cards around with them when handbag snatching is so rife...

The maid does not live in, she was sneaking in when I was out.


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## MaidenScotland

Milouk84 said:


> Your money back from her!! Threatening that you'll report her to the police that she had confessed, and she'll have a bad crime record. And no one will ever hire her again in egypt and she might not be able to leave the country.





As she has disappeared I can hardly threaten her... she has her passport and with any luck she has left the country


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## Eco-Mariner

MaidenScotland said:


> As she has disappeared I can hardly threaten her... she has her passport and with any luck she has left the country


Then you have your answer and a statement from the police to cover the bank's insurance. Let them chase her.


Eco-Mariner.


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## Milouk84

You're safe and sound then you're a winner too.


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## MaidenScotland

Lanason said:


> I would throw the book at her - she abused your trust so she deserves everything she gets - no sympathy, no mercy.




It is the trust thing that has thrown me that and the calculated way she went about it... I have been very kind to this girl, taking her out for meals with me, buying clothes, lending money, heck I bought her a computer in March. I could sorta understand if she seen money and was tempted but to deliberately wait until I was out and then go into my house and drawers on lots of occasions has really broken me. I stopped taking cards and lots of cash out with me as I was trying to be sensible and safe.. I don't even use a handbag I use a bum bag to try and prevent my bag being snatched, I wear no jewellery, I thought I had taken every precaution I could. 
A member of staff tells me that when I left on Saturday she suddenly told him she was nipping out.. she got my card and went on a spending spree, he reports to me that she brought back two big bags but he has no idea what was in them,

I have told the boss I do not want another maid.. I will do my own housework.


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## canuck2010

MaidenScotland said:


> It is the trust thing that has thrown me that and the calculated way she went about it... I have been very kind to this girl, taking her out for meals with me, buying clothes, lending money, heck I bought her a computer in March. :



That sounds terrible. I guess since she has disappeared then there is little chance of getting anything back. When I was in Kenya and Tanzania, where corruption and stealing is rife, when a crime like this happened it was common for victims to put ads in the local newspapers with photo and descriptions of the perpetrator with a warning for others not to hire them. Not sure if this would be legal here though!

Sent from my iPad using ExpatForum


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## MaidenScotland

I told the police that she had run away.. case closed as far as they are concerned

They did not ask me if I had a photo, any idea where she had gone, age, nothing.

btw I had to pay for the reports to be written and they are hand written,


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## hyper_janice

MaidenScotland said:


> I told the police that she had run away.. case closed as far as they are concerned
> 
> They did not ask me if I had a photo, any idea where she had gone, age, nothing.
> 
> btw I had to pay for the reports to be written and they are hand written,


So sorry this has happened to you. My trust in people wains as time goes on. It's sad that you will miss out on the benefits of trust for a while. :Cry:


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## Sonrisa

Oh, MS. I think I remember your philipina maid. It so sad to hear that she has broken your trust in such cold and calculated way. 
this is exactly how i feel here, even if I could afford a cleaner (which i could, actually, if i didn t insist in saving half of my husbands salary and the other half didnt go onto educating my children) I just couldnt go throught the trouble of having to watch for my valuables and money permanently. i much rather do things myself.


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## MaidenScotland

Sonrisa said:


> Oh, MS. I think I remember your philipina maid. It so sad to hear that she has broken your trust in such cold and calculated way.
> this is exactly how i feel here, even if I could afford a cleaner (which i could, actually, if i didn t insist in saving half of my husbands salary and the other half didnt go onto educating my children) I just couldnt go throught the trouble of having to watch for my valuables and money permanently. i much rather do things myself.




Hi

Yes you met her several times.
The thing is she didn't come in to my home when I was there she was doing most of it on a Tuesday, Thursday and a Saturday if she knew I was in Maadi, luckily the way things have been this past while I have not been out so much or my bank account would have been cleared out.


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## aykalam

MaidenScotland said:


> I told the police that she had run away.. case closed as far as they are concerned
> 
> They did not ask me if I had a photo, any idea where she had gone, age, nothing.
> 
> btw I had to pay for the reports to be written and they are hand written,


 Surely they should have placed a travel ban on her, in case she's still in Egypt. They seem quite capable of doing so when they want to.


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## MaidenScotland

aykalam said:


> Surely they should have placed a travel ban on her, in case she's still in Egypt. They seem quite capable of doing so when they want to.




We are in Egypt... they police didn't even turn off their television set when I was in the room.

This is an extract from an email from an old friend who worked here for an international company

Sorry to hear your tale of woe. We had the same problem with an accountant on site at media city. It was at the time that we were selling off kit for cash after the construction work had finished and he nicked £40K but the Egyptian old bill were not interested because both the victim and the criminal were foreigners.



As I originally said I was under the impression they thought another foreigner here with too much money


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## MaidenScotland

If the Egyptian people can't get justice what hope does a foreigner have,


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## Eco-Mariner

I will say again, both the boss who proposed her to you and the credit card bank should be made more accountable in chasing her, from photos or documents. If they were taking the loss I'm sure they would.

If you are standing the loss, either learn from your mistakes or hire a P.I.
You said it Maiden, trust no-one.


Eco-Mariner.


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## aykalam

Eco-Mariner said:


> I will say again, both the boss who proposed her to you and the credit card bank should be made more accountable in chasing her, from photos or documents. If they were taking the loss I'm sure they would.
> 
> If you are standing the loss, either learn from your mistakes or hire a P.I.
> You said it Maiden, trust no-one.
> 
> 
> Eco-Mariner.


The bank will not pay up or help chase her since she had free access to the card i.e. she didn't break in to steal it and was able to put it back where she found it on more than one occasion. As far as they are concerned, the cardholder (MS in this unfortunate case) is liable as she didn't take care to keep it safe.


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## MaidenScotland

What is breaking in? 

She used a key she should not have had nor was I aware she had it... 

It is fraud that has been committed as she pretended to be me,


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## aykalam

MaidenScotland said:


> What is breaking in?
> 
> She used a key she should not have had nor was I aware she had it...
> 
> It is fraud that has been committed as she pretended to be me,


I'm not saying you were careless, but I know what the bank will say in order not to pay


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## MaidenScotland

And the good news is... I have been repaid, not all of it but a good chunk.. I was honest and told them I was unsure of what monies I had personally withdrawn other than 3 I knew for definite was me. 

I would of course have been very happy with a full refund but I can't complain. 

So not too bad a service from the RBS.. reported the fraud on Monday and repaid on Thurday, plus it was a debit card and someone pointed out that was harder to get refunds on,


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## Lanason

MaidenScotland said:


> And the good news is... I have been repaid, not all of it but a good chunk.. I was honest and told them I was unsure of what monies I had personally withdrawn other than 3 I knew for definite was me.
> 
> I would of course have been very happy with a full refund but I can't complain.
> 
> So not too bad a service from the RBS.. reported the fraud on Monday and repaid on Thurday, plus it was a debit card and someone pointed out that was harder to get refunds on,


Great news Chris and well done RBS:clap2::clap2::clap2:


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## aykalam

Yay! 

Sooo glad for you Maiden. Impressed with RBS, I must check them out next time I go back


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## Lanason

aykalam said:


> Yay!
> 
> Sooo glad for you Maiden. Impressed with RBS, I must check them out next time I go back


Be careful 

Royal Bank of SCOTLAND - when Scotland declares independence, joins the euro and becomes another "Greece or Spain" you'll thank me for the warning. :eyebrows:


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## MaidenScotland

Lanason said:


> Be careful
> 
> Royal Bank of SCOTLAND - when Scotland declares independence, joins the euro and becomes another "Greece or Spain" you'll thank me for the warning. :eyebrows:




Scotland will not join the Euro... we have our own banks and our own money


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## Lanason

MaidenScotland said:


> Scotland will not join the Euro... we have our own banks and our own money


:clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2: Hand outs from London :boxing::boxing::boxing::boxing:


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## MaidenScotland

The notion that Scottish public services are subsidised by English taxpayers has become so commonplace in UK politics that not even David Dimbleby, the supposedly neutral presenter of BBC Question Time, thinks twice about repeating it. During an exchange on a recent show with Liberal Democrat Jo Swinson about her decision to vote as a Scottish MP to impose tuition fees on English students, Dimbleby said, "You voted for England to have fees, whereas Scotland, as we know, with the amount of money that comes from England, doesn't need to have them."
　
This view is based on the discrepancy between levels of public spending per head of the population in Scotland and England. According to the Treasury's latest Public Expenditure Statistics, Scots gets an average of £10,212 spent on them every year by the UK government, compared with around £8,588 -- £1,624 less -- for people in England.

In line with narrative of the Scottish welfare subsidy, the extra cash allows Scotland to provide its students with free higher education, its elderly with free personal care and concessionary travel, and its sick with free prescription medication, while their English equivalents are forced to go without. 
　
This so-called "Union dividend" is also used by many London-based journalists and politicians -- many of whom would describe themselves as social democrats -- who argue that current levels of public expenditure in Scotland would be unsustainable were it to break away and become an independent country. 
　
Yet, if the London commentariat took the time to examine the figures a little more closely, they would discover what a large number people north of the border already know: not only does Scotland more than pay its way in the Union, but its overall fiscal position would actually be stronger as a fully sovereign nation. 
　
Let's tackle the subsidy charge first. Scots represent 8.4 per cent of the UK's total population, but they generate 9.4 per cent of its annual revenues in tax -- equivalent to £1,000 extra per person. The remaining £624 is easily accounted for by decades of UK government under-spending in Scotland on defence and on other items which are not routinely broken down by region, such as foreign office services. 
　
Second, there's the claim that Scotland's "bloated" welfare state could not be sustained outside the Union. This is nonsense. Including its per capita share of revenues from North Sea oil and gas production, Scotland's public expenditure probably does not exceed the OECD average and is almost certainly lower than that of the Scandinavian social democracies. The fact that the Treasury cynically refuses to class those revenues as part of Scotland's overall annual economic output inflates the level of public sector expenditure as a proportion of GDP relative to that of the private sector.
　
Finally, one of the most common -- and least well-considered -- claims made by supporters of the Union is that the 2008 global financial meltdown shattered the economic case for independence. How, they argue, would the economy of tiny, independent Scotland have been able to cope with the burden of debt needed to rescue its financial sector from collapse? It wouldn't, of course, but according to George Walker, professor of financial regulation and policy at the University of Glasgow, Scotland would only have had to take on a proportion of the total cost of the bail-out based on the subsidiaries and business operations of HBOS and RBS in Scotland. This would probably amount to no more than 5 per cent. 
　
For the sake of argument, nationalists might also wish to note that Scotland's 2009 - 2010 deficit was, at 6.8 per cent of GDP, a full 3 per cent lower than England's, and that the likely defence expenditure of an independent Scotland would, at around $1.8bn per year in line with Nordic average, be roughly £1bn less than what the UK currently spends on its behalf. 
　
But why should Unionists let the economic facts ruin the image they have built up of Scotland as a nation of selfish, indulged welfare "mendicants"?The subsidy myth is too politically useful to be simply abandoned. Of course, if they ever do come to terms with the reality that Scotland could survive on its own - and even prosper - it will probably be too late anyway.


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## Lanason

MaidenScotland said:


> The notion that Scottish public services are subsidised by English taxpayers has become so commonplace in UK politics that not even David Dimbleby, the supposedly neutral presenter of BBC Question Time, thinks twice about repeating it. During an exchange on a recent show with Liberal Democrat Jo Swinson about her decision to vote as a Scottish MP to impose tuition fees on English students, Dimbleby said, "You voted for England to have fees, whereas Scotland, as we know, with the amount of money that comes from England, doesn't need to have them."
> 
> This view is based on the discrepancy between levels of public spending per head of the population in Scotland and England. According to the Treasury's latest Public Expenditure Statistics, Scots gets an average of £10,212 spent on them every year by the UK government, compared with around £8,588 -- £1,624 less -- for people in England.
> 
> In line with narrative of the Scottish welfare subsidy, the extra cash allows Scotland to provide its students with free higher education, its elderly with free personal care and concessionary travel, and its sick with free prescription medication, while their English equivalents are forced to go without.
> 
> This so-called "Union dividend" is also used by many London-based journalists and politicians -- many of whom would describe themselves as social democrats -- who argue that current levels of public expenditure in Scotland would be unsustainable were it to break away and become an independent country.
> 
> Yet, if the London commentariat took the time to examine the figures a little more closely, they would discover what a large number people north of the border already know: not only does Scotland more than pay its way in the Union, but its overall fiscal position would actually be stronger as a fully sovereign nation.
> 
> Let's tackle the subsidy charge first. Scots represent 8.4 per cent of the UK's total population, but they generate 9.4 per cent of its annual revenues in tax -- equivalent to £1,000 extra per person. The remaining £624 is easily accounted for by decades of UK government under-spending in Scotland on defence and on other items which are not routinely broken down by region, such as foreign office services.
> 
> Second, there's the claim that Scotland's "bloated" welfare state could not be sustained outside the Union. This is nonsense. Including its per capita share of revenues from North Sea oil and gas production, Scotland's public expenditure probably does not exceed the OECD average and is almost certainly lower than that of the Scandinavian social democracies. The fact that the Treasury cynically refuses to class those revenues as part of Scotland's overall annual economic output inflates the level of public sector expenditure as a proportion of GDP relative to that of the private sector.
> 
> Finally, one of the most common -- and least well-considered -- claims made by supporters of the Union is that the 2008 global financial meltdown shattered the economic case for independence. How, they argue, would the economy of tiny, independent Scotland have been able to cope with the burden of debt needed to rescue its financial sector from collapse? It wouldn't, of course, but according to George Walker, professor of financial regulation and policy at the University of Glasgow, Scotland would only have had to take on a proportion of the total cost of the bail-out based on the subsidiaries and business operations of HBOS and RBS in Scotland. This would probably amount to no more than 5 per cent.
> 
> For the sake of argument, nationalists might also wish to note that Scotland's 2009 - 2010 deficit was, at 6.8 per cent of GDP, a full 3 per cent lower than England's, and that the likely defence expenditure of an independent Scotland would, at around $1.8bn per year in line with Nordic average, be roughly £1bn less than what the UK currently spends on its behalf.
> 
> But why should Unionists let the economic facts ruin the image they have built up of Scotland as a nation of selfish, indulged welfare "mendicants"?The subsidy myth is too politically useful to be simply abandoned. Of course, if they ever do come to terms with the reality that Scotland could survive on its own - and even prosper - it will probably be too late anyway.


Can't be bothered to read all that, but guess it says somat like Scotland gives money to England. 

However the RBS is NOT run by a Scotsman - Stephen Hester was born in 1960 in Ithaca, New York. His father is a chemistry professor and his mother a psychotherapist. He was educated at Easingwold School in North Yorkshire a rural comprehensive school and then he attended Oxford University, from where he graduated with a degree in Philosophy, Politics and Economics. 

Explains the quick pay out to a Scottish Lady :eyebrows::eyebrows::eyebrows::eyebrows::eyebrows:


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## aykalam

Lanason said:


> Can't be bothered to read all that, but guess it says somat like Scotland gives money to England.
> 
> However the RBS is NOT run by a Scotsman - Stephen Hester was born in 1960 in Ithaca, New York. His father is a chemistry professor and his mother a psychotherapist. He was educated at Easingwold School in North Yorkshire a rural comprehensive school and then he attended Oxford University, from where he graduated with a degree in Philosophy, Politics and Economics.
> 
> Explains the quick pay out to a Scottish Lady :eyebrows::eyebrows::eyebrows::eyebrows::eyebrows:


what would we do without the wiki :clap2:


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## MaidenScotland

I think it was more 

she has never been overdrawn
she has never had an overdraft

in all her banking lif5


... so to try and scam us now would be most out of character lol


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## hurghadapat

MaidenScotland said:


> And the good news is... I have been repaid, not all of it but a good chunk.. I was honest and told them I was unsure of what monies I had personally withdrawn other than 3 I knew for definite was me.
> 
> I would of course have been very happy with a full refund but I can't complain.
> 
> So not too bad a service from the RBS.. reported the fraud on Monday and repaid on Thurday, plus it was a debit card and someone pointed out that was harder to get refunds on,


Good pleased to hear it.....well done RBS :clap2::clap2:


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## Lanason

aykalam said:


> what would we do without the wiki :clap2:


Mind having said he was born in USA, he was educated in *Yorkshire*.

so it would a tight race between Yorkshire and Scotland for the deepest pockets.

:banplease::banplease::banplease:


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## hurghadapat

Lanason said:


> Mind having said he was born in USA, he was educated in *Yorkshire*.
> 
> so it would a tight race between Yorkshire and Scotland for the deepest pockets.
> 
> :banplease::banplease::banplease:


Lol....it's not the deep pockets it's the short arms that are the problem.


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## canuck2010

Well, I hope your former maid builds a nice house back in the Philippians with that money she stole!


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## MaidenScotland

canuck2010 said:


> Well, I hope your former maid builds a nice house back in the Philippians with that money she stole!




I hope she gets it all stolen from her


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