# moving to Germany from Australia



## Uma333

Hey guys,

Hope you all are doing well. I am an Australian working in Software industry with SAP and Data Migration background and with 15+ years of experience. I have recently started thinking about moving to Europe, especially to Germany and settle there. I have two sons, just about to finish their schooling and ready to enter University. Considering my background, could you guys please help me with the below:

1. Comparing to Australia what would be my advantages to settle in Germany?

2. What about University education for my sons? I have read through that it is free with Public Universities. If yes, what would be the other educational expenses to me in related to boys education?

3. What are the quick ways to get an IT job from Australia so that I hold a job and then move to Germany?

4. What would be the cost of living and other expenses per month for a family of 3?

5. What are the salary ranges for IT professionals with 15+ years experience and what would be a manageable salary?

Please help me replying my questions. Thank you so much.

Best Regards!


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## ALKB

Uma333 said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> Hope you all are doing well. I am an Australian working in Software industry with SAP and Data Migration background and with 15+ years of experience. I have recently started thinking about moving to Europe, especially to Germany and settle there. I have two sons, just about to finish their schooling and ready to enter University. Considering my background, could you guys please help me with the below:
> 
> 1. Comparing to Australia what would be my advantages to settle in Germany?
> 
> 2. What about University education for my sons? I have read through that it is free with Public Universities. If yes, what would be the other educational expenses to me in related to boys education?
> 
> 3. What are the quick ways to get an IT job from Australia so that I hold a job and then move to Germany?
> 
> 4. What would be the cost of living and other expenses per month for a family of 3?
> 
> 5. What are the salary ranges for IT professionals with 15+ years experience and what would be a manageable salary?
> 
> Please help me replying my questions. Thank you so much.
> 
> Best Regards!


I have only ever visited Australia and I am not in IT, so I am sure somebody with more in-depth information will be along later.

First of all: how old are your sons exactly? When will they turn 18?

Do you have sole custody?

1. Never lived in Australia but if I think about living in Australia, for me, the advantages of Germany are:

- No flesh-rotting spider bites or other really nasty creepy-crawlies
- a lot less wild fires but we do have our share of forest fires every summer.
- Not as hot
- Easy access to all of Europe for travelling
- Less chance of getting lost in a vast uninhabited area and dying of dehydration 
- Seasons. I like seasons.
- No marmite anywhere.
- Most excellent bread.
- Less risk of skin cancer.

I can think of quite a few disadvantages, too.

2. Generally tuition free, some universities ask for a semester fee of up to 500 € which usually includes a public transport pass that would otherwise cost you more than 500, so I don't see this as a cost really. Some states have started implementing tuition fees for non-EEA students but still very reasonable when compared to UK, USA or Australia.

Other cost depend on what exactly they study and where. Cost of living - will they manage to get a place at a uni that is commutable from home or will they need accommodation? Food, other living expenses, material and specialist books depending on course of study.

If they are too old to get a dependent visa, they might need their own student visa and that means you have to show available maintenance funds for a year beforehand, which for two sons would be close to 20k €. 

Most programmes are taught in German and bilingual or English only programmes are very competitive. How good is your sons' German? If they can't pass the very hard university anguage assessment test, they may have to invest at least a year or so into learning German. They may have to do this regardless, if the Australian high school diploma is not deemed equivalent to a German Abitur.

Check the DAAD website to find out:

https://www.daad.de/en/

Keep scrolling down to all the course and visa related stuff.

Also: keep in mind that in Europe, the academic year starts in September/October, not in February, so there may be some overlap/gap.

3. No clue. Look at Monster, Stepstone, etc.?

4. Impossible to answer, as living expenses vary wildly from region to region and also within regions.

5. No idea.


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## Bevdeforges

To be honest, there is probably no "quick" way to find a job long distance. But it is possible to launch a job search via the Internet using the various international job hunting websites: Monster, LinkedIn, StepStone and others.

What you need to do is to apply online - ideally with a CV in German style and in German. No one is going to hire you without meeting you face to face and while some specialties may hire based on a Skype or other video conference interview it would be a huge advantage if you could make a trip to Germany (on your own dime) to make yourself available for in person interviews. To do this you need to have at least one or more expressions of interest from employers you have applied to. 

When I did something similar (from the US) I mentioned in my cover letters that I planned to be in the area in the near future and would like the opportunity to discuss the job in person while I am in town. You need to explicitly state in your CV what your immigration status is so that the employer is aware that they will have to seek hiring authorization for a non-EU national (and possibly pick up some or all of your moving costs). This makes it a very long process, and if you wind up booking a last-minute interview trip, a rather expensive one. Until the current uncertainty regarding lockdowns, travel restrictions, etc. is resolved, you may be limited to doing intensive research for a while.


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## Uma333

Thank you so much for your reply!! They are 20 and 16 old and yes, I do have sole custody for them. I didn't know that they have to attend the German language assessment test and also at this age, do they need an independent visa? I was under an impression that under 24 can come as dependants along with my residency visa once I get. Please clarify.



ALKB said:


> I have only ever visited Australia and I am not in IT, so I am sure somebody with more in-depth information will be along later.
> 
> First of all: how old are your sons exactly? When will they turn 18?
> 
> Do you have sole custody?
> 
> 1. Never lived in Australia but if I think about living in Australia, for me, the advantages of Germany are:
> 
> - No flesh-rotting spider bites or other really nasty creepy-crawlies
> - a lot less wild fires but we do have our share of forest fires every summer.
> - Not as hot
> - Easy access to all of Europe for travelling
> - Less chance of getting lost in a vast uninhabited area and dying of dehydration
> - Seasons. I like seasons.
> - No marmite anywhere.
> - Most excellent bread.
> - Less risk of skin cancer.
> 
> I can think of quite a few disadvantages, too.
> 
> 2. Generally tuition free, some universities ask for a semester fee of up to 500 € which usually includes a public transport pass that would otherwise cost you more than 500, so I don't see this as a cost really. Some states have started implementing tuition fees for non-EEA students but still very reasonable when compared to UK, USA or Australia.
> 
> Other cost depend on what exactly they study and where. Cost of living - will they manage to get a place at a uni that is commutable from home or will they need accommodation? Food, other living expenses, material and specialist books depending on course of study.
> 
> If they are too old to get a dependent visa, they might need their own student visa and that means you have to show available maintenance funds for a year beforehand, which for two sons would be close to 20k €.
> 
> Most programmes are taught in German and bilingual or English only programmes are very competitive. How good is your sons' German? If they can't pass the very hard university anguage assessment test, they may have to invest at least a year or so into learning German. They may have to do this regardless, if the Australian high school diploma is not deemed equivalent to a German Abitur.
> 
> Keep scrolling down to all the course and visa related stuff.
> 
> Also: keep in mind that in Europe, the academic year starts in September/October, not in February, so there may be some overlap/gap.
> 
> 3. No clue. Look at Monster, Stepstone, etc.?
> 
> 4. Impossible to answer, as living expenses vary wildly from region to region and also within regions.
> 
> 5. No idea.


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## Uma333

Thank you, it is helpful. I can definitely foresee a challenge there to get a job from Australia. 



Bevdeforges said:


> To be honest, there is probably no "quick" way to find a job long distance. But it is possible to launch a job search via the Internet using the various international job hunting websites: Monster, LinkedIn, StepStone and others.
> 
> What you need to do is to apply online - ideally with a CV in German style and in German. No one is going to hire you without meeting you face to face and while some specialties may hire based on a Skype or other video conference interview it would be a huge advantage if you could make a trip to Germany (on your own dime) to make yourself available for in person interviews. To do this you need to have at least one or more expressions of interest from employers you have applied to.
> 
> When I did something similar (from the US) I mentioned in my cover letters that I planned to be in the area in the near future and would like the opportunity to discuss the job in person while I am in town. You need to explicitly state in your CV what your immigration status is so that the employer is aware that they will have to seek hiring authorization for a non-EU national (and possibly pick up some or all of your moving costs). This makes it a very long process, and if you wind up booking a last-minute interview trip, a rather expensive one. Until the current uncertainty regarding lockdowns, travel restrictions, etc. is resolved, you may be limited to doing intensive research for a while.


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## ALKB

Uma333 said:


> Thank you so much for your reply!! They are 20 and 16 old and yes, I do have sole custody for them. I didn't know that they have to attend the German language assessment test and also at this age, do they need an independent visa? I was under an impression that under 24 can come as dependants along with my residency visa once I get. Please clarify.


Where did you read 24? Do you have a source?

I can only find § 32 AufenthaltsG and that talks of minor children, which means under 18 in Germany.

So, as far as I know - and I'd gladly be corrected on this - your 16-year old will be able to move under dependent visa if you obtain a work permit for Germany but your 20-year old will need to qualify for a visa in his own right, most likely student visa.

If you want to get a German BlueCard, your salary needs to be at least 43.056,- € for IT jobs/annum.

Similar to having to pass an English assessment before an international student can enroll in Australian university, international students have to prove German language skills at a pretty high level. Lectures are generally in German and higher education is not known for simple language, so if they want to be successful, they need to know German before starting to study.

Check here whether their school leaving certificate is seen as entry level qualification for university in Germany:

https://www2.daad.de/deutschland/na...n/en/57293-database-on-admission-requirements

If not, they may have to attend a year of Studienkolleg (status is already student) where they will be able to learn German to the required standard and attend classes that are taught in German Abitur but possibly not in Australian high school.


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## ALKB

Uma333 said:


> Thank you, it is helpful. I can definitely foresee a challenge there to get a job from Australia.


Okay.

Now the good news.

At least pre-COVID19, IT jobs were pretty abundant, Australians have it relatively easy to get sponsored and you could enter on a tourist visa, stay for 90 days, then apply in-country for a jobseeker visa to maximise your possible stay.

You can't work under these visas, though, you can only job-seek until you find an employer to sponsor you and a work permit is issued.

Your 20-year old could apply for a working holiday visa, which would give him 12 months to study German, get his bearings and sort out the next visa.

You said that both your sons are about to finish school - there is an age difference of 4 years has your 20-year old already finished school and what grade is your 16-year old in?

Oh, and you don't happen to have a European nationality or recent European ancestry, by any chance?


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## Nononymous

German language skills would be an issue for your sons. If starting from zero, I would expect that very few people could go straight into Studienkolleg and be ready for university in a year's time. 

As I understand it, Studienkolleg is meant to bring foreign students up to Abitur standard in their subjects of study, as well as bring their German up to the level needed to survive university. It's not a language course for beginners.

And obviously the younger son would need to finish his high school in Australia unless he was sent to an (expensive) international school, since he couldn't be tossed into the final year of Gymnasium.


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## ALKB

Nononymous said:


> German language skills would be an issue for your sons. If starting from zero, I would expect that very few people could go straight into Studienkolleg and be ready for university in a year's time.
> 
> As I understand it, Studienkolleg is meant to bring foreign students up to Abitur standard in their subjects of study, as well as bring their German up to the level needed to survive university. It's not a language course for beginners.
> 
> And obviously the younger son would need to finish his high school in Australia unless he was sent to an (expensive) international school, since he couldn't be tossed into the final year of Gymnasium.


Yeah, I think most Studienkollegs requires B2 level to start with, so starting to learn German intensively right now in Australia would be a must. The older son could use his 12 months on working holiday visa wisely and get his language up to the required point.

I don't know anything about the Australian school system but if the younger son would move right now, I think he'd be put into 11th grade, so two or three more years of schooling.

If they even allow it - apparently, to join 10th grade or above (because 10th grade is a school leaving exam year), foreign school certificates have to be officially recognised by the school authority of the German state OP would be moving to. This can be quick or take many months.

That's why my daughter lost a year and had to go back into 9th grade, her school reports from the UK were not even on letterheaded paper, never mind any stamps or signatures, so we just put it down as language boot camp and were done with it.


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## *Sunshine*

Uma333 said:


> Thank you so much for your reply!! They are 20 and 16 old and yes, I do have sole custody for them. I didn't know that they have to attend the German language assessment test and also at this age, do they need an independent visa? I was under an impression that under 24 can come as dependants along with my residency visa once I get.


I don't know why you'd think it would be 24. Your older son is an adult. If he wants to move to Germany, he can use the anabin website to determine if he is eligible to study in Germany. 

More importantly, it will be next to impossible for a 16 year old foreigner with minimal German to complete a German Abitur. Education is a responsibility of the states and the exact rules vary, but by the time your younger son learns German he will be too old for compulsory schooling and will be told to find an apprenticeship. 

Even before Corona there was a massive shortage of teachers and now that classes need to be smaller schools are scrambling to reorganise schedules. Gymnasien do not have the resources to admit foreign children who can't keep up with the challenging curriculum. 

If your younger son wants to attend university, make sure you can afford a private international school or let him stay in Australia.


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## Uma333

Thank you for the info. Yes, my elder son 20 age will finish his Graduation invIT from Australian University in June 2021. Younger will finish his year 12 in this November. And unfortunately, we do not have any European nationality. By the ways, do you think that due to COVID-19 it is going to be difficult to get a job from Australia. Because, I am not sure I will be able to spend money without a job in Europe. Hence, would prefer to get a job from here if I am lucky. 



ALKB said:


> Okay.
> 
> Now the good news.
> 
> At least pre-COVID19, IT jobs were pretty abundant, Australians have it relatively easy to get sponsored and you could enter on a tourist visa, stay for 90 days, then apply in-country for a jobseeker visa to maximise your possible stay.
> 
> You can't work under these visas, though, you can only job-seek until you find an employer to sponsor you and a work permit is issued.
> 
> Your 20-year old could apply for a working holiday visa, which would give him 12 months to study German, get his bearings and sort out the next visa.
> 
> You said that both your sons are about to finish school - there is an age difference of 4 years has your 20-year old already finished school and what grade is your 16-year old in?
> 
> Oh, and you don't happen to have a European nationality or recent European ancestry, by any chance?


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## Uma333

Thanks for the reply. Yes I agree with you and I am trying to get an inexpensive training for German language before we get an opportunity to move there. Will there be any places if you could please recommend where they can attain a good German knowledge, that would be great. Also, what level in Germany would be sufficient for them to attend University studies? And yes, my younger one will finish his year 12 this November. So, it would be high school studies completion for him. 



Nononymous said:


> German language skills would be an issue for your sons. If starting from zero, I would expect that very few people could go straight into Studienkolleg and be ready for university in a year's time.
> 
> As I understand it, Studienkolleg is meant to bring foreign students up to Abitur standard in their subjects of study, as well as bring their German up to the level needed to survive university. It's not a language course for beginners.
> 
> And obviously the younger son would need to finish his high school in Australia unless he was sent to an (expensive) international school, since he couldn't be tossed into the final year of Gymnasium.


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## Uma333

I have verified in the link given by you and both are eligible for a direct admission to German universities as older one is finishing his graduation and younger one his year 12 and based on Australian school, subjects and University, the link has resulted that it would be a direct admission. Which is good in a way! Thanks.




ALKB said:


> Yeah, I think most Studienkollegs requires B2 level to start with, so starting to learn German intensively right now in Australia would be a must. The older son could use his 12 months on working holiday visa wisely and get his language up to the required point.
> 
> I don't know anything about the Australian school system but if the younger son would move right now, I think he'd be put into 11th grade, so two or three more years of schooling.
> 
> If they even allow it - apparently, to join 10th grade or above (because 10th grade is a school leaving exam year), foreign school certificates have to be officially recognised by the school authority of the German state OP would be moving to. This can be quick or take many months.
> 
> That's why my daughter lost a year and had to go back into 9th grade, her school reports from the UK were not even on letterheaded paper, never mind any stamps or signatures, so we just put it down as language boot camp and were done with it.


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## ALKB

Uma333 said:


> Thanks for the reply. Yes I agree with you and I am trying to get an inexpensive training for German language before we get an opportunity to move there. Will there be any places if you could please recommend where they can attain a good German knowledge, that would be great. Also, what level in Germany would be sufficient for them to attend University studies? And yes, my younger one will finish his year 12 this November. So, it would be high school studies completion for him.


They need to pass the DSH or TestDaf exam, which starts at B2.

To be very honest, B2 will not be sufficient to be successful at uni. If they pick up language easily, it might be enough to start and then rapidly learn while studying, making for a nightmarish first semester or so, but in the end, they will not only need at least C1, they will also need to learn to write academically in German.

Also, keep in mind that only 4% of all university places are reserved for non EEA students.


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## ALKB

Uma333 said:


> Thank you for the info. Yes, my elder son 20 age will finish his Graduation invIT from Australian University in June 2021. Younger will finish his year 12 in this November. And unfortunately, we do not have any European nationality. By the ways, do you think that due to COVID-19 it is going to be difficult to get a job from Australia. Because, I am not sure I will be able to spend money without a job in Europe. Hence, would prefer to get a job from here if I am lucky.



What is an invIT? Googling it didn't bring up anything that seemed to have to do with university.

I have no idea what the economy will look like. A lot of people lost their jobs, it is expected that loads of companies will go into insolvency this autumn, who knows what will happen in the next year or so.


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## *Sunshine*

ALKB said:


> Also, keep in mind that only 4% of all university places are reserved for non EEA students.


Could you please provide a source for that claim?

Although it has been a few years since I've advised international students, I've never heard about a 4% limit on all places. I know that certain subjects such as medicine, pharmacy, etc have a 5% quota for foreign students, but many programmes without an NC do not have a quota.


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## *Sunshine*

Uma333 said:


> I have verified in the link given by you and both are eligible for a direct admission to German universities as older one is finishing his graduation and younger one his year 12 and based on Australian school, subjects and University, the link has resulted that it would be a direct admission. Which is good in a way! Thanks.


I've heard mixed reviews, however, most students found the Studienkolleg to provide a solid foundation to study in Germany. On the other the demand for places at Studienkolleg far outstrips supply and most schools do not consider applications from foreign students who meet the criteria for direct admission. 

The level of German required to study here varies by university and programme. What would your kids like to study? 

You should be aware that in Germany the barrier for admission is very low compared to most Anglo Saxon countries and in certain areas such as engineering it is normal that 30%-40% of all students flunk out within the first year. It is one of the reasons that over half of all foreign students fail to complete their degrees here.


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## ALKB

*Sunshine* said:


> Could you please provide a source for that claim?
> 
> Although it has been a few years since I've advised international students, I've never heard about a 4% limit on all places. I know that certain subjects such as medicine, pharmacy, etc have a 5% quota for foreign students, but many programmes without an NC do not have a quota.


I might have misremembered and it was those 5%. I could have sworn that I read 4% repeatedly but that might have been in 2016 when the media kept reporting about refugees' possibilities to study in Germany and we all know how thoroughly they research.

I should have checked before posting from memory.

I now also can only find the 5%, for instance here:

https://www.studium.uni-mainz.de/nca/


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## Uma333

My kids are interested in graduation in bachelor of IT/ Digital tech or software side. By the ways, this morning I have verified DAAD site, which has mentioned some of the courses only taught in English and no German language requirement for low or free cost. Could you please tell me if my kids apply will there be any limitation to get admission into the course? That is, what is the possibility of an application with all requirements fulfilling getting rejected or not giving a placement? Thank you.




*Sunshine* said:


> I've heard mixed reviews, however, most students found the Studienkolleg to provide a solid foundation to study in Germany. On the other the demand for places at Studienkolleg far outstrips supply and most schools do not consider applications from foreign students who meet the criteria for direct admission.
> 
> The level of German required to study here varies by university and programme. What would your kids like to study?
> 
> You should be aware that in Germany the barrier for admission is very low compared to most Anglo Saxon countries and in certain areas such as engineering it is normal that 30%-40% of all students flunk out within the first year. It is one of the reasons that over half of all foreign students fail to complete their degrees here.


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## *Sunshine*

Uma333 said:


> My kids are interested in graduation in bachelor of IT/ Digital tech or software side. By the ways, this morning I have verified DAAD site, which has mentioned some of the courses only taught in English and no German language requirement for low or free cost. Could you please tell me if my kids apply will there be any limitation to get admission into the course? That is, what is the possibility of an application with all requirements fulfilling getting rejected or not giving a placement? Thank you.


Without knowing your kid's grades it is impossible to even guess whether or not they would qualify for admission. 

More importantly, are you just looking for the cheapest degree that you can buy for them? Or do you actually care about the quality of education? 

There are a few undergraduate programmes that are taught in English that are very good, however, these are also very competitive. There are many terrible programmes taught in English after which most students go back home because they can't find a job here.

If your kids want to study in English, they should stay in Australia. 

Have you actually discussed with your children what they want to do?


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## badImage

Uma333 said:


> My kids are interested in graduation in bachelor of IT/ Digital tech or software side. By the ways, this morning I have verified DAAD site, which has mentioned some of the courses only taught in English and no German language requirement for low or free cost. Could you please tell me if my kids apply will there be any limitation to get admission into the course? That is, what is the possibility of an application with all requirements fulfilling getting rejected or not giving a placement? Thank you.


You do not apply for (single) courses but you do apply for undergraduate or graduate degree programmes, in which in general a Bachelor or Master degree can be earned. The foreign high school leaving certificates required for university acceptance are recorded in the Anabin database at anabin.kmk.org. For Australia, it depends on the regions. For example for the Australian Capital Territory it is required:

* an "ACT Senior Secondary Certificate" with, on the Record of Achievement, the classes on level T or 12th grade: Maths, a natural science and English, at least.
* an "ACT Tertiary Entrance Statement" with a minimum requirement of the "Australian Tertiary Admission Rank (ATAR)" of 75.46.

As you tend towards technical or IT curricula, the Australian Tertiary Admission Rank needs to be at minimum 78.96. It would be a minimum of 92.95 for medicine or law for example.

If you have a "Australian Capital Territory Year 12 Certificate" you require at least a Record of Achievement on T-Level/12th grade: Maths, a natural science and English.
The "ACT Tertiary Entrance Statement" needs to state a minimum "Australian Tertiary Admission Rank (ATAR)" (before 2009 Universities Admission Index (UAI)) of, again for IT/technical degrees:

* ATAR or Universities Admission Index starting from 1998: 78.96
* Universities Admission Index 1997: 74.06
* Universities Admission Index 1996: 74.58

I wil spare the rest of the regions/territories, or you specify what diploma your kids get.

There are courses in english, and it should be possible to write the thesis in english if it is requested, the examiner acknowledges and the faculty board grants. Nevertheless, most public universities operate in german for undergraduates. As my employer states:

An undergraduate degree program is a study program that leads to the student’s first degree or diploma for higher education. This category includes Bachelor’s degree programs, but also programs toward the state exam (Staatsexamen), Diplom or Magister degrees. Master’s degree programs, by contrast, are always graduate programs, which means that admission always requires that the student has successfully completed an undergraduate program first. In Germany, agreements laid out by the Conference of Education and Cultural Affairs (Kultusministerkonferenz) state that undergraduate programs that lead directly to a master’s degree are not permitted.

Freie Universität Berlin offers undergraduate programs in a wide variety of subjects. Please be aware that except the Mono-Bachelor "North American Studies" undergraduate courses are taught only in German. Application and enrollment for all our undergraduate study programs require sufficient German skills.

For masters degrees, there are several programmes offered in english, such as computational science and data science. But they require a (recognized) Bachelor degree to enroll.


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## SethO

In regards to your 5th question. You can expect around 70.000€+ in berlin. Obviously dependson the company you work for. you can get much more.


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## John98103

This cost of living comparison website might be useful -

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-livi...h&city2=Sydney&tracking=getDispatchComparison

Sydney is more expenisive than Munich - surprising. You can change the city pairs easily.


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