# Inheritance laws



## Guest (Jan 24, 2013)

Hallo everybody, I'm looking for some specific information about inheritance law and hope someone here can help, as I've had conflicting advice so far. I'm British, but have lived in France for many years and have just moved to Spain. I don't own any real estate anywhere and don't expect to. I have a few personal possessions in France, but they aren't worth money and a friend will collect them.
Therefore, my "estate" consists of the money in my bank accounts. There's a current account that I don't really need in France, a current account in Spain and a current account in the U.K. with just a few hundred pounds in it, in case I need to pay for something in sterling, but most of my money is in a U.K. sterling savings account.
I want to leave everything to charity. I have two adult children, but sadly they're like you never imagine your children will be and have already had and wasted at least five times as much as I still possess, so I want to leave the remainder to animals or other deserving causes.
My confusion is about probate and about where the money should be. If I close my U.K. savings account and move the money to an equivalent Spanish one, would thatmean I had to follow Spanish inheritance law and leave 1/3 each to the offspring? Or does that only apply to real estate? Or not at all? Should I close both my U.K. accounts, or, as I'm still a British subject, will probate have to be applied for even if I have nothing there? (I'm thinking about making sure it does go to charity and about saving on the administrative costs.) I know that British subjects can make a will according to the law of their own country, but have also been told that this doesn't always apply.
It's not a fortune, by the way - my chldren would get through it in no time - but it could help a lot of starvingchildren or animals, or plant a lot of trees.


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## Rostra (Jan 23, 2013)

There is now an EU directive requiring all EU countries to bring their Inheritance Laws into line with each other. The situation will be that the Testator (person making the Will) is allowed to CHOOSE whether the law of the country where the Will is made, or the Law of the country of which he is a national, applies to the disposition of his estate. The deadline for this legislation is August 2015.
This is great news for Brit ex-pats, as under English and Scottish (I believe) law we have free disposition to the entirety of our estate, meaning we can leave it all to the Spouse, or the Dogs' Home if we wish. There has to be the appropriate wording in the Will (which I can give you if you email me) - can you email me on this site?

If you have property in Spain and in France and in the UK you need a separate Will for each, to avoid long, costly and complicated delays in settling the estate.


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

Rostra said:


> There is now an EU directive requiring all EU countries to bring their Inheritance Laws into line with each other. The situation will be that the Testator (person making the Will) is allowed to CHOOSE whether the law of the country where the Will is made, or the Law of the country of which he is a national, applies to the disposition of his estate. The deadline for this legislation is August 2015.
> This is great news for Brit ex-pats, as under English and Scottish (I believe) law we have free disposition to the entirety of our estate, meaning we can leave it all to the Spouse, or the Dogs' Home if we wish. There has to be the appropriate wording in the Will (which I can give you if you email me) - can you email me on this site?
> 
> If you have property in Spain and in France and in the UK you need a separate Will for each, to avoid long, costly and complicated delays in settling the estate.


But at a UK national when you have a UK and Spanish will, it is overridden by the UK will anyway at the moment regarding who you leave your estate to.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Stravinsky said:


> But at a UK national when you have a UK and Spanish will, it is overridden by the UK will anyway at the moment regarding who you leave your estate to.


Are you sure? I was (legally) advised otherwise.

From another thread, the question of executors came up. I've checked our Spanish wills and there is no mention of any executors. In this case, what happens?


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## Rostra (Jan 23, 2013)

Stravinsky said:


> But at a UK national when you have a UK and Spanish will, it is overridden by the UK will anyway at the moment regarding who you leave your estate to.


No it isn't. It used to be, but there was a big case in Malaga some years ago which changed the interpretation of Spanish Law - We've had people here in Lanzarote treated as intestate because they only had a UK Will - and the UK will certainly does not override the Spanish one if you have both. AND the Spanish will has been set aside if it did not comply with Spanish Inheritance Law.


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2013)

Thank you for the replies so far. It's all quite complicated and I'm finding it difficult to get absolutely sure information. I've been reading _bother, I can't post the link, as am new_ which gives a lot of information, but I'm still uncertain. 
If I close my French bank account and give (in writing) my few personal possessions to a friend there, then I don't need a French will, do I? 
If I close my U.K. bank accounts and only have money in Spain, will that mean there's no need for an English will? Or probate, as there'll be nothing to probate? If I do write an English will, should it be registered somewhere in the U.K? if I only have money in Spain, will I be obliged to follow the Spanish inheritance rules? I had an email from one lawyer online, in which she says, ".. The way to check which Law applies is by checking the location of your Estate." I understand this to mean that, if my money is in a U.K. bank account, then I can leave it as I wish,but of it's in a Spanish one, it'll jave to be divided according to Spanish law, but I'm not absolutely sure.
Also, you can disinherit your legal heirs and there are certain criteria for so doing. _bother, I can't post the links, as am new_

Snikpoh, I know the answer about executors. An executor is called a _contador repartidor_ (counter sharer-out) and you can appoint them in your will. I'm appointing a chap here to do things like cancelling internet subscriptions, my best friend in France will do things like writing to friends, but it seems best to arrange for the abogado to do it, by giving power of attorney when one makes the will - making sure one has a fixed price beforehand. Of course, if you have family who'll do it, as one should, that's different, but it's all so complicatedand a lot of the costs arefixed whether you pay a lawyer or do it yourself. it's in that table on thelink i gave.


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## Rostra (Jan 23, 2013)

snikpoh said:


> Are you sure? I was (legally) advised otherwise.
> 
> From another thread, the question of executors came up. I've checked our Spanish wills and there is no mention of any executors. In this case, what happens?


I know this for a fact as part of my job is settling estates. There may be Notaries who will operate otherwise, but it leaves the door wide open for children to contest the settlement. I am lucky in working with a Notary who is ALWAYS correct.

If you don't have an Albacea (Executor) the heirs need to give somebody Power of Attorney to act on their behalf. Just delays the process and costs more as you usually get lawyers involved.

The Principal heir does not need to be an executor (spouse for example) as he/she has the same powers, unless there is a possibility that he/she will forgo his/her inheritance in favour of the children - a sensible thing to do if the principal heir is elderly, to avoid two lots of inheritance tax. You can appoint two executors who need to be able to act Jointly and Severally - i.e. they both have the same powers but can act independently.


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2013)

Albacea - I'd just found that word and was about to post it. The notario here told me contador repartidor.
So are you a professional, registered albacea? Is that what I need (as well as an abogado)? And do really need an abogado, rather than just a notario? It's not really complicated and not a fortune, just a matter of distributing it honestly and correctly.


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## Rostra (Jan 23, 2013)

desti said:


> Albacea - I'd just found that word and was about to post it. The notario here told me contador repartidor.
> So are you a professional, registered albacea? Is that what I need (as well as an abogado)? And do really need an abogado, rather than just a notario? It's not really complicated and not a fortune, just a matter of distributing it honestly and correctly.


I have been working in Spain as Gestor (though not Spanish qualified) for 27 years. One of the things I do is help people with Wills and am often included as "Albacea Contador Repartidor" - I then get the job of winding up the estate.

You can go straight to a Notary if your will is straight forward, through it is best to use one who will cause it to be drawn up in English and Spanish. The Spanish prevails in the event of any query.

Make sure they know about the new EU directive and include the following words:

Manifiesta que el importe de la herencia instituida en las cláusulas anteriores, se encuentra dentro de los límites disponibles, según determina su Ley Personal, y manifiesta que desea que su sucesión se rija por el derecho de su país de nacionalidad.


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

Rostra said:


> No it isn't. It used to be, but there was a big case in Malaga some years ago which changed the interpretation of Spanish Law - We've had people here in Lanzarote treated as intestate because they only had a UK Will - and the UK will certainly does not override the Spanish one if you have both. AND the Spanish will has been set aside if it did not comply with Spanish Inheritance Law.


This is the trouble you see, because I have a solicitor in Spain, a solicitor in the UK and a gestor who all say different to what you say. I'm not talking about having only a UK will or only a Spanish will, I'm talking about having both mirroring each other drawn up by a solicitor and notarised in English and Spanish.


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

Stravinsky said:


> This is the trouble you see, because I have a solicitor in Spain, a solicitor in the UK and a gestor who all say different to what you say. I'm not talking about having only a UK will or only a Spanish will, I'm talking about having both mirroring each other drawn up by a solicitor and notarised in English and Spanish.


Free testamentary disposition ...... thats the wording. 
In fact, it actually happened to a neighbour

So when did this major change to Spanish law and the reciprocal agreements between the UK and Spain take place then please?


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## Rostra (Jan 23, 2013)

Stravinsky said:


> This is the trouble you see, because I have a solicitor in Spain, a solicitor in the UK and a gestor who all say different to what you say. I'm not talking about having only a UK will or only a Spanish will, I'm talking about having both mirroring each other drawn up by a solicitor and notarised in English and Spanish.


They can't "Mirror" each other - they have to be drawn up differently, but they can now make the same dispositions, as long as you include the wording I posted above.


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2013)

Rostra said:


> I have been working in Spain as Gestor (though not Spanish qualified) for 27 years. One of the things I do is help people with Wills and am often included as "Albacea Contador Repartidor" - I then get the job of winding up the estate.
> 
> You can go straight to a Notary if your will is straight forward, through it is best to use one who will cause it to be drawn up in English and Spanish. The Spanish prevails in the event of any query.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that. I'm still unsure about some details. On one page I read, it says, _"Renvoi applies where there is a conflict of laws and where one jurisdiction remits the question of the applicable law to another jurisdiction. If the question is remitted to Spain then it is for the Spanish courts (where there is a contentious matter) to decide if they accept that renvoi and therefore apply their national law to the deceased. The current trend is for the Spanish courts to only accept the renvoi or remission when there are beneficiaries resident in Spain or beneficiaries who have what is considered to be a legitimate right in accordance with Spain's national law. An additional element in these cases is the Spanish principle that in the absence of real property (i.e. house) outside of Spain then Spanish courts are more likely to accept the renvoi to Spain."_

So I still don't know.. The trouble is, you can get conflicting information even from "experts" and professionjals - especially in some countries.


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## Rostra (Jan 23, 2013)

desti said:


> Thanks for that. I'm still unsure about some details.
> 
> So I still don't know.. The trouble is, you can get conflicting information even from "experts" and professionjals - especially in some countries.


It's not surprising you're confused. Spanish Law originally said that the law of the country of the person who died should be applied and English Law that the law of the country where the goods were situated should apply. 

It was then decided about 10 years ago that Spanish Law should apply to a will made by somebody *resident* in Spain as residents should be treated like nationals

Now it is all being sorted by the EU directive.

Go ahead - get your Will written, and just make sure it includes the wording I gave you.


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

Rostra said:


> They can't "Mirror" each other - they have to be drawn up differently, but they can now make the same dispositions, as long as you include the wording I posted above.


"sigh" ... I suppose it depends on how pedantic you want to tbe about applying the word "mirrored"

Anyway, I still understand what I said about who you can leave what to is correct (presently) according to proper legal advice

I'll leave you to it


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## Rostra (Jan 23, 2013)

Stravinsky said:


> Free testamentary disposition ...... thats the wording.
> In fact, it actually happened to a neighbour
> 
> So when did this major change to Spanish law and the reciprocal agreements between the UK and Spain take place then please?


It hasn't happened yet, Stavinsky - the EU directive has been out for a while but all 27 countried have till August 2015 to legilslate. Here (Lanzarote) Some of the Notaries have decided to accept the wording as if the legislation has gone through, because they know it will have to at sometime before then.

See this http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-12-183_en.htm?locale=en


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

Rostra said:


> It hasn't happened yet, Stavinsky - the EU directive has been out for a while but all 27 countried have till August 2015 to legilslate. Here (Lanzarote) Some of the Notaries have decided to accept the wording as if the legislation has gone through, because they know it will have to at sometime before then.
> 
> See this EUROPA - PRESS RELEASES - Press Release - Statement by EU Justice Commissioner Reding on the positive vote by the European Parliament on new EU legislation regarding cross-border successions


Yes ... I know it hasn't happened yet as far as the legislation you talk of is concerned, but what I have been saying is that it is already the case in regard to UK will over Spanish will for who you leave your estate to. It's happened here locally and as I said its been confirmed by professional legal people. As usual in Spain its confusing


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2013)

Rostra said:


> It hasn't happened yet, Stavinsky - the EU directive has been out for a while but all 27 countried have till August 2015 to legilslate. Here (Lanzarote) Some of the Notaries have decided to accept the wording as if the legislation has gone through, because they know it will have to at sometime before then.
> 
> See this (Europe site


Well, I've read all through that link - thank you forposting it - I'll include the clause you've advised, Rostra, write a will in English and a Spanish one and hope for the best. The way things are going, there may not be anything to inherit anyway!


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

desti said:


> Well, I've read all through that link - thank you forposting it - I'll include the clause you've advised, Rostra, write a will in English and a Spanish one and hope for the best. The way things are going, there may not be anything to inherit anyway!


Don't forget that the Spanish will has to be legally registered and logged before it is valid.


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2013)

Oh dear, I'm still confused - perhaps even more so after talking to a(nother) Spanish solicitor. Mind you, he was very unhelpful and not very pleasant - I had to drag each bit of informtion out of him.
I know that I must make a Spanish Will, not only because I have a little property (not real estate) here and am now legally resident here.
I thought my Spanish Will could cover assets in the U.K. but apparently I must either have a British Will to cover those assets, or move them all to Spain. It's just money and obviously I don't want to change it into euros at the moment - I received it in sterling and the exchange rate had already gone down drastically, but now it's even worse.
As I'm not resident in the U.K. and haven't been for ages, I can't make a legally valid British Will, can I? The abogado says I can and must, but he says I'd have to go to a British Consulate. I've never heard of consulates dealing with Wills and think he's mistaken. 
So, can I write a U.K. Will to cover my assets in the U.K., if Im not resiedent there and haven't been for years? I can't, can I? But according to the abogado and the notario, a Spanish Will can't cover assets outside Spain, but I can make a U.K. Will either by contacting a U.K. solicitor, or by going to Consulate.

This is driving me crazy! I know some of you have kindly replied to my intitial query, but it's still not quite clear, is it? 
My Will won't be complicated - it's just the problem of the two countries that's confusing me. I'd move my money to SEpain, to simplify it, but I'd lose so much and have already lost a fortune through illness and other horrible things (and people!)


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2013)

snikpoh said:


> Don't forget that the Spanish will has to be legally registered and logged before it is valid.


Yes. Thank you. And d'you realise that, because in the U.K. wills don't have to be registered, only witnessed by two people of British nationality, that means that lots of people have probably been cheated, when one Will has been executed and there was another, later, one which was hidden and/or never found, either on purpose or by bad luck?


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

desti said:


> Oh dear, I'm still confused - perhaps even more so after talking to a(nother) Spanish solicitor. Mind you, he was very unhelpful and not very pleasant - I had to drag each bit of informtion out of him.
> I know that I must make a Spanish Will, not only because I have a little property (not real estate) here and am now legally resident here.
> I thought my Spanish Will could cover assets in the U.K. but apparently I must either have a British Will to cover those assets, or move them all to Spain. It's just money and obviously I don't want to change it into euros at the moment - I received it in sterling and the exchange rate had already gone down drastically, but now it's even worse.
> As I'm not resident in the U.K. and haven't been for ages, I can't make a legally valid British Will, can I? The abogado says I can and must, but he says I'd have to go to a British Consulate. I've never heard of consulates dealing with Wills and think he's mistaken.
> ...



I think (again) you've been given bad/wrong advice.

Of course you don't have to move assets here! and of course you can write a |UK will while resident here. Just be careful that they don't say something like "I revoke all previous wills ..." but that they mention the existence of each other.

I have done just that whilst being a resident in Spain.

Both wills refer to each other and each one covers assets in their respective countries.

PM me if you want and I can recommend someone in UK who could handle this for you (but he's not cheap).


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2013)

snikpoh said:


> I think (again) you've been given bad/wrong advice.
> 
> Of course you don't have to move assets here! and of course you can write a |UK will while resident here. Just be careful that they don't say something like "I revoke all previous wills ..." but that they mention the existence of each other.
> 
> ...


Thanks awfully, Snikpoh. You're very helpful. Yes, please, I would like to "speak" to you by private message and will forward the latest email, which is from one of the many British help-expats people, most of whom I wouldn't trust to stick on a postage stamp. Am worn out, so it'll probably be in a day or two.

I don't believe I need to pay all these people. When I lived in the U.K., I bought and sold houses five times doing the conveyancing myself - it was really easy and quick - and have always done thinjgs myself. But I do need to get all the facts straight and, of course, there'll have to be an executor in each country, or a bilingual one, 'cos you can't do it yourself once you're dead! 

One of the idiotic pieces of advice in this this latest email (from a chap recommended by a Brit-estate-agent here, so am not surprised) is that the best thing will be to spend all my money before I die! Yeah, right, of course I'm willing to pay him £90 an hour to give me such wise and knowledgeable advice!


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