# Unemployment & the black economy discussion



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Uh oh,
not looking good in the unemployment sticky, is it?? 

This situation is just not going away. Nor will it unless somebody somewhere decides to invest in an area that will provide jobs.

Is there any way the colour of the stickies could be changed so that they stand out a bit more, and so that more people read them???

I'm thinking pink and or orange...

neon...

flashing!!!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Uh oh,
> not looking good in the unemployment sticky, is it??
> 
> This situation is just not going away. Nor will it unless somebody somewhere decides to invest in an area that will provide jobs.
> ...


pink & orange flashing neon!!!:clap2:

I did mention your suggestion to the boss when you said a similar thing a couple of weeks ago

they did used to have stars or something:confused2: which seem to have got lost in the last automatic software update

he's looking at different ways of highlighting them again

& you're right - it's not looking better unemployment wise

I keep hoping to find something positive - but no luck so far..............


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Uh oh,
> not looking good in the unemployment sticky, is it??
> 
> This situation is just not going away. Nor will it unless somebody somewhere decides to invest in an area that will provide jobs.
> ...


Until they do something about creating jobs the problem is on going. In addition you've got large amounts of people who've are receiving unemployment benefit now working on the 'black' ! I saw recently that the government has recognised this & is proposing a crackdown. My neighbours son was laid off last month, wasn't on a full contract , so no redundancy but will get 80% ofhis wages for 2 years. He told me that he's better off as he now doesn't have the 140€'s a week fuel bill to get to work & is studying german as that is were he's looking to work as there is nothing around here & he doen't expect it too get better for at least 10 years !


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

gus-lopez said:


> ...... & he doen't expect it too get better for at least 10 years !


Gus good to see some bright optimism  

I think if a real crack down is made on the black economy that would bring spain to its knees, if it is not already there. But I have little confidence that the spanish government could crackdown on an egg let alone a black economy 

But if in 30 years time, after a financial meltdown and mass emigration, Spain becomes a european nature reserve with say a population of 10 million, although the lose of spanish culture would be sad, the overall result for us rich northern Europeans might be good


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> pink & orange flashing neon!!!:clap2:
> 
> I did mention your suggestion to the boss when you said a similar thing a couple of weeks ago
> 
> ...


They would of course (like the employment thread) be better in bold as they would then stand out.
This you can do if you go into Thread Tools/Edit thread/ and then change the text to bold.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

nigele2;470365I think if a real crack down is made on the black economy that would bring spain to its knees said:


> But in the medium to long term that MUST be done. A thriving black economy is a sign of an immature economy. It's more typical of the ramshackle economies of some of the former Soviet bloc states and it usually goes hand-in-hand with corruption and graft in private and public life.
> I'm sorry to say that I agree that bringing the Spanish economy to a level with its more prosperous Northern EU neighbours is a long -haul task. Countries compete on two things: quality or price. Germany is well ahead in the quality field.
> Spain, Greece, Italy etc. can compete only on price. The competition is intense in this area.
> It comes down to Mercedes and BMW versus Fiat and Seat.
> ...


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> A thriving black economy


Why is it assumed the black economy is thriving? As far as I am aware it is struggling along on its belly. It would be easy to think that if all those on the black paid tax then all would be well (I know you know better Mary). The fact is if the black had to pay tax and charge IVA it would go the same way as the rest of the spanish economy - down the plug hole. IMO the black economy is a symptom of a ruined economy and not the cause. 

I must admit when I first joined this forum just over a year ago I got all sorts of flack when I said Spain was a disaster. But then I thought the fight was worth the potential victory. I thought the Spanish might get off their a***s and kill the fascists (call them whatever you like but for me they are fascists), and build a new constitution based on fairness and 'spanish first'. Now I think Spain is lost and the sooner it goes bankrupt, the regions with hope declare independence, and the rest is declared a special region of Germany the better.

I'm even thinking of abandoning spain and moving to Portugal. Yes they have their problems but they have hope.

G*d I'm depressed today. Doesn't help SIL was made redundant two days ago from the Madrid authorities which followed step daughter made redundant last month. Next month could be BIL and then another spanish family with no income.

On the bright side - didn't Ireland play well 

ps ignore me Mary, I'll go open a bottle


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

nigele2 said:


> Why is it assumed the black economy is thriving? As far as I am aware it is struggling along on its belly. It would be easy to think that if all those on the black paid tax then all would be well (I know you know better Mary). The fact is if the black had to pay tax and charge IVA it would go the same way as the rest of the spanish economy - down the plug hole. IMO the black economy is a symptom of a ruined economy and not the cause.
> 
> I must admit when I first joined this forum just over a year ago I got all sorts of flack when I said Spain was a disaster. But then I thought the fight was worth the potential victory. I thought the Spanish might get off their a***s and kill the fascists (call them whatever you like but for me they are fascists), and build a new constitution based on fairness and 'spanish first'. Now I think Spain is lost and the sooner it goes bankrupt, the regions with hope declare independence, and the rest is declared a special region of Germany the better.
> 
> ...


We don't disagree on the basics, Nigel. I too think it will be a long haul for Spain. I'm really sorry to hear of your family's problems. 
When I left the UK I thought I would never get involved in politics again but now I'm helping PSOE in their election campaign by doing radio etc. work in English for them. 
Why? Because after meeting our PSOE Mayor and learning more about what goes on in our local political arena it seemed the 'right thing to do' to help someone who in our locality at least is decent, honest and working for the community.
I know that the PSOE doesn't have clean hands either but my judgment is that in this neck of the woods they are definitely the cleanest.
So some of you may hear my not-so-golden voice. over your radios..


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> pink & orange flashing neon!!!:clap2:
> 
> I did mention your suggestion to the boss when you said a similar thing a couple of weeks ago
> 
> ...


Sorry xabiachica, didn't realise that I'd already said smth.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

nigele2 said:


> Why is it assumed the black economy is thriving? As far as I am aware it is struggling along on its belly. It would be easy to think that if all those on the black paid tax then all would be well (I know you know better Mary). The fact is if the black had to pay tax and charge IVA it would go the same way as the rest of the spanish economy - down the plug hole. IMO the black economy is a symptom of a ruined economy and not the cause.


I soo agree with this Nigel.


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

playamonte said:


> They would of course (like the employment thread) be better in bold as they would then stand out.
> This you can do if you go into Thread Tools/Edit thread/ and then change the text to bold.


No ... you cant I'm afraid


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Stravinsky said:


> No ... you cant I'm afraid


I'm SO glad you couldn't................I thought I was having a blonde moment when I couldn't do it


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Yes the 'black economy ' is not whatit was but to me you now have a worse situation in that those workers who have been laid off & are in receipt of unemployment benefit are now working cash in hand & coining it all ends up. All the cash they receive is hidden under the bed & the U/ benefit is covering there normal living expenses. They can carry on like this until the UB stops , whilst those that were working before on the 'black' were at least using the money , in most cases, to live on are now even worse off. Long before the present crisis arose, I'd never been able to understand how any economy could sustainpaying 80% of previous salary as U. benefit for 2 years. This is ok when few people are losing their jobs but in the present situation is unsustainable. I've worked ou that if my neighbours son stayed on the dole climing for his full 2 years entitlement that it would take them nearly 10 years to recoup what they will have paid out in unemployment benefit , even after he's paid tax on it.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

One of the things I think that we are all overlooking is the fact that the Spanish are not lazy. If they are not in regular employment, most will try to get some work albeit part of the "black economy" often going to other countries to do seasonal agricultural work. So the work culture (or do I mean ethic?) is there, it is just that either there are not enough legit. jobs or getting in to them is too difficult (oposiciones!).

It just needs some way of channelling that desire to work into legitimate employment which means fair wages and an open employment market.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

gus-lopez said:


> Yes the 'black economy ' is not whatit was but to me you now have a worse situation in that those workers who have been laid off & are in receipt of unemployment benefit are now working cash in hand & coining it all ends up. All the cash they receive is hidden under the bed & the U/ benefit is covering there normal living expenses. They can carry on like this until the UB stops , whilst those that were working before on the 'black' were at least using the money , in most cases, to live on are now even worse off. Long before the present crisis arose, I'd never been able to understand how any economy could sustainpaying *80% of previous salary as U. benefit for 2 years*. This is ok when few people are losing their jobs but in the present situation is unsustainable. I've worked ou that if my neighbours son stayed on the dole climing for his full 2 years entitlement that it would take them nearly 10 years to recoup what they will have paid out in unemployment benefit , even after he's paid tax on it.


I'm confused ... I was told you got 4 months UB for every year you'd contributed (up to a maximum of five years), and you get 70% of your salary for six months and 60% thereafter. After that, or if you have never had permanent work, you are lucky to get anything more than means-tested handouts. And of course there is no housing benefit or family allowance.

Far from coining it, unemployed bricklayers round here are scrabbling around in the campo picking wild asparagus and selling it on street corners and roundabouts.

Even the jobbing builders have reduced their rate from €100 to €70 a day.


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## clairem (Mar 3, 2011)

*unemployment benefit*



Alcalaina said:


> I'm confused ... I was told you got 4 months UB for every year you'd contributed (up to a maximum of five years), and you get 70% of your salary for six months and 60% thereafter. After that, or if you have never had permanent work, you are lucky to get anything more than means-tested handouts. And of course there is no housing benefit or family allowance.
> 
> Far from coining it, unemployed bricklayers round here are scrabbling around in the campo picking wild asparagus and selling it on street corners and roundabouts.
> 
> Even the jobbing builders have reduced their rate from €100 to €70 a day.


When I became unemployed last June I went to the s.s office and waited and the girl there filled in the forms for me , and I was told I could only get benefit for 64 days! at 20euros per day (mon-fri) obiously now the 64 days are up, am I entitled to anything else ? as I still haven't found work and finding it very difficult here in the Valencia area.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

clairem said:


> When I became unemployed last June I went to the s.s office and waited and the girl there filled in the forms for me , and I was told I could only get benefit for 64 days! at 20euros per day (mon-fri) obiously now the 64 days are up, am I entitled to anything else ? as I still haven't found work and finding it very difficult here in the Valencia area.


Have you been back to the SS office and asked them?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

clairem said:


> When I became unemployed last June I went to the s.s office and waited and the girl there filled in the forms for me , and I was told I could only get benefit for 64 days! at 20euros per day (mon-fri) obiously now the 64 days are up, am I entitled to anything else ? as I still haven't found work and finding it very difficult here in the Valencia area.


the only place you will get a definitive answer will be the ss office


I suspect when she told you 64 days she meant exactly that - 64 days & that's the end of it


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## clairem (Mar 3, 2011)

xabiachica said:


> the only place you will get a definitive answer will be the ss office
> 
> 
> I suspect when she told you 64 days she meant exactly that - 64 days & that's the end of it


Hi, no I haven't been back, but what do the Spanish people live off with no work ????
or is it different because I am not Spanish???


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

clairem said:


> Hi, no I haven't been back, but what do the Spanish people live off with no work ????
> or is it different because I am not Spanish???


A lot of them borrow from their families, or work "on the black". And some town halls offer short-term contracts for street-cleaning etc so they can build up their entitlement again.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

clairem said:


> Hi, no I haven't been back, but what do the Spanish people live off with no work ????
> or is it different because I am not Spanish???


no, it's no different for the spanish - they live off their families



go back to the ss though -I think there is something they might be able to do to help in some circs, but I'm not sure - it's not paro though - something else

there was a question about something similar not long ago - I'll see if I can find it...........



eta - this thread http://www.expatforum.com/expats/spain-expat-forum-expats-living-spain/71669-below-poverty-line.html


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## clairem (Mar 3, 2011)

xabiachica said:


> no, it's no different for the spanish - they live off their families
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OK will pay them a visit, and let you know what happens !


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

clairem said:


> OK will pay them a visit, and let you know what happens !


please do let us know how you got on


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

I'm going to change the title of the thread to something more appropriate


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> I'm confused ... I was told you got 4 months UB for every year you'd contributed (up to a maximum of five years), and you get 70% of your salary for six months and 60% thereafter. After that, or if you have never had permanent work, you are lucky to get anything more than means-tested handouts. And of course there is no housing benefit or family allowance.
> 
> Far from coining it, unemployed bricklayers round here are scrabbling around in the campo picking wild asparagus and selling it on street corners and roundabouts.
> 
> Even the jobbing builders have reduced their rate from €100 to €70 a day.


I can only go by what he told me & that was he was entitled to the full amount 24 months @ 80% of his monthly wage. Therefore he's getting 2240€ a month. Admittedly he's still got to pay tax on it but doesn't have the 600€+ fuel costs to pay out, he's signed up for various courses & is learning German because that's where he's going to look for work.
The point I was trying to make is that it's nigh impossible to recoup the sheer amount of u. benefit that they are paying out.
The builders here in receipt of u. benefit charge 10€ an hour. The ones originally working in the black economy charge 15-20€'s. Another son ( who doesn't exist for tax purposes ) charges 15€ an hour for steelwork & engineering & has never been busier !


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

gus-lopez said:


> I can only go by what he told me & that was he was entitled to the full amount 24 months @ 80% of his monthly wage. Therefore he's getting 2240€ a month. Admittedly he's still got to pay tax on it but doesn't have the 600€+ fuel costs to pay out, *he's signed up for various courses & is learning German* because that's where he's going to look for work.
> The point I was trying to make is that it's nigh impossible to recoup the sheer amount of u. benefit that they are paying out.
> The builders here in receipt of u. benefit charge 10€ an hour. The ones originally working in the black economy charge 15-20€'s. Another son ( who doesn't exist for tax purposes ) charges 15€ an hour for steelwork & engineering & has never been busier !


That's probably why then - extra allowance for _formación_.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

gus-lopez said:


> The point I was trying to make is that it's nigh impossible to recoup the sheer amount of u. benefit that they are paying out.


Gus I think you are spot on. And of course when a country takes a bail out, I think inevitable for Spain, the rich powers of Europe try to enforce a tightening of the belt. That will be interesting 

Alcalaina I wish you luck with your PSOE push but you are I'm sure aware that the polls are against them and Mr Bean has been around long enough that he cannot keep blaming Aznar. 

But in any case I do not believe either the PP or PSOE have the type of leader who would have the strength to drag Spain out of this mess. And the IU seem to have no real leader at all.

I think the answer lies in the break up of Spain. That would facilitate total default. Then regions could re-negotiate the necessary investment offering the real possibility of a return. 

Just hope Asturias gets its independence soon. If we do just watch the price of milk  

ps. Even cutdown to regiones one of course would still need to make Spanish companies realise that happy correctly rewarded workers are better than slaves. Not sure how you crack that


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## Caz.I (Mar 21, 2009)

clairem said:


> When I became unemployed last June I went to the s.s office and waited and the girl there filled in the forms for me , and I was told I could only get benefit for 64 days! at 20euros per day (mon-fri) obiously now the 64 days are up, am I entitled to anything else ? as I still haven't found work and finding it very difficult here in the Valencia area.


If your unemployment benefit finishes, and you have children, I think you can apply for something called ayuda familiar.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2011)

nigele2 said:


> Just hope Asturias gets its independence soon. If we do just watch the price of milk


Oh frickin' eh. Don't you go making a nationalist sandwich with Cantabria in the middle! Not cool! Although, all those _gaitas_ would make for a mighty destructive weapon. 


Re: unemployment
OH got "THE" call the other day and is now working for the first time since Christmas. Looks like he'll be there until the end of the school year. I got a job offer as well. Huzzah hurrah whoopie!!! :clap2:


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

halydia said:


> Oh frickin' eh. Don't you go making a nationalist sandwich with Cantabria in the middle! Not cool! Although, all those _gaitas_ would make for a mighty destructive weapon.
> 
> 
> Re: unemployment
> OH got "THE" call the other day and is now working for the first time since Christmas. Looks like he'll be there until the end of the school year. I got a job offer as well. Huzzah hurrah whoopie!!! :clap2:


Good news halydia. You must be feeling a lot happier


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2011)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Good news halydia. You must be feeling a lot happier


Of course, as I now have a happy OH!
I don't know if your OH has ever been in the precarious subbing position, but it stinks to stare at the phone every morning between 8:30 and 1:30 and pray that it rings.


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