# Council Register - Padron - a good idea?



## mike kelly (Aug 12, 2009)

Hi,

I own a flat in Barcelona where I used to live up until 6 years ago. Previously I had been registered ("empadrondo") with the local council but now I received a leter from them saying that my registration had expired and that I need to reregister if I am still in Barcelona. Is there any benefit to my staying registered? (or potential problem of not being registered?) 
The flat is now empty although I go back on holidays or for weekend about 10 times a year so I spend in total about 6 weeks of each year in Barcelona.

Thanks


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mike kelly said:


> Hi,
> 
> I own a flat in Barcelona where I used to live up until 6 years ago. Previously I had been registered ("empadrondo") with the local council but now I received a leter from them saying that my registration had expired and that I need to reregister if I am still in Barcelona. Is there any benefit to my staying registered? (or potential problem of not being registered?)
> The flat is now empty although I go back on holidays or for weekend about 10 times a year so I spend in total about 6 weeks of each year in Barcelona.
> ...


Empadronamiento isn't a choice where you decide if it's worth or not to you. It's a legal requirement, or not, according to your circumstances. This information from the UK government sums it up nicely


> *Who should register?*
> 
> It is obligatory by Spanish law to register on the padrón at the Town Hall where you* habitually reside*, yet many British ex-pats still have not done so. Perhaps some view the padrón as a means of vigilance by the state, in ‘big-brother’ fashion. However, in reality, it is simply a way for the town hall to know how many people live in their area, without entering into investigations as to a person’s official residence status or financial affairs.


More info here under Registering on the Padrón
https://www.gov.uk/residency-requirements-in-spain


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

So, to summarize, as you are NOT resident in Spain, you must NOT be on the padron.


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## mike kelly (Aug 12, 2009)

I'm concerned about possible confiscation of unoccupied flats by a new government. I read this may happen, especially with Podemos.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mike kelly said:


> I'm concerned about possible confiscation of unoccupied flats by a new government. I read this may happen, especially with Podemos.


Who knows what's going to happen in the following elections? No one really knows, especially with Podemos in the picture. The "voters intention" which is screened every month more or less changes all the time. However popular Podemos is it would be an extraordinary feat if they won the elections.
I think the definition of unoccupied is different to holiday property, and I'm not sure what the latest stance Podemos has on that, but I don't think they are aiming at taking away holiday properties owned by foreigners at the start.
Apart from all that, if you sign on the Padrón when you aren't in fact living here you would be giving false information. Only you can decide if you want to do that.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

mike kelly said:


> I'm concerned about possible confiscation of unoccupied flats by a new government. I read this may happen, especially with Podemos.


A significant percentage of Spaniards own more than one property, typically one in the city and one in the pueblo, but there may be others that have been passed down through inheritance. You can only be empadronado in one property at a time so all these second homes are also officially "unoccupied" by your definition. Podemos are not going to confiscate them. They might try to tax them more, but they won't confiscate them.


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## mike kelly (Aug 12, 2009)

Chopera said:


> all these second homes are also officially "unoccupied" by your definition.


It would be nice to see an official definition of just what does constitute an "unoccupied" flat.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

In Andalucia, the Junta already has the power to expropriate empty properties for a period of up to 3 years, in order to avoid evictions or to assist people at risk of social exclusion:-


La Junta podr? expropiar temporalmente viviendas para evitar su desahucio | Andaluc?a | elmundo.es


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

mike kelly said:


> It would be nice to see an official definition of just what does constitute an "unoccupied" flat.


Bank repossessions might constitute a proportion of them - I believe banks are being 'taxed' in Murcia for holding them and not selling them or renting them out as 'social housing'.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Lynn R said:


> In Andalucia, the Junta already has the power to expropriate empty properties for a period of up to 3 years, in order to avoid evictions or to assist people at risk of social exclusion:-
> 
> 
> La Junta podr? expropiar temporalmente viviendas para evitar su desahucio | Andaluc?a | elmundo.es



Good. There are very many vacant properties in Malaga Province, some never occupied, many bank repossessions. 
There are also many homeless families.
It is surely wrong for families to be without a roof over their heads when so many properties of all sizes are empty.


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## mike kelly (Aug 12, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Good. There are very many vacant properties in Malaga Province, some never occupied, many bank repossessions.
> There are also many homeless families.
> It is surely wrong for families to be without a roof over their heads when so many properties of all sizes are empty.


According to that logic, people with a spare room in their house should be forced to allow a homeless person live with them. If banks have repossesed many flats, then let them sell them. Many banks have after all been bailed out by taxpayers.


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## mike kelly (Aug 12, 2009)

Hi, here's an update on my situation. Over the Christmas holidays I went to the Adjuntamiento in Barcelona to see if I could add myself to the padron and had no problem doing so. I had been previously registered so I just showed my passport and proof that I own a flat in Barcelona.
I also reregistered with the EU foreigeners register in the Extranjeria office in a Policia Nacional station. This was a lot more difficult and I needed four visits to finally get the little green paper. After first arriving and filling in the form applying for permanent residency (on the basis that I had previously lived and paid social security for more than three years in Spain and still owned a property there), I was told that I just needed to pay the 10 euro charge and that would be it. On returning to the office with the charge paid, having again taken a number and queued for 20 minutes, I was told by another lady that I also needed to show that I had private insurance. The next day I went back with a copy of my health insurance translated into Spanish, queued up again, only to be told by yet another lady that I also needed a bank statement saying that I had over 5500 euro in my account. This despite the fact that owning property is considered an acceptable alternative to having this sum of money. Well it was not possible for me to get an account statement from my bank as I didn't have my e-banking information with me so I decided to go back once again and argue that owning a property in Spain was an accepted alternative to a bank statement. After rereading the requirements document, the lady behind the desk accepted this and issued me with the green card. 
I must say that the staff were really quite rude and seemed to enjoy making things difficult for me, indeed I noticed that other EU nationals were having difficulties getting the card. Neither are they very competent and don't seem over familiar with their own procedures.
Anyway, to sum up, it IS possible for a non resident property owner to register at the local town hall and if you have previously worked in Spain for more than three years you can also remain registered on the EU foreigeners register.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

When I read these tales of the saga some go through to comply with such pointless red tape I fully understand why many part timer owners don't bother


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Rabbitcat said:


> When I read these tales of the saga some go through to comply with such pointless red tape I fully understand why many part timer owners don't bother


but part time owners don't have to register on the padrón - nor as resident


shouldn't, in fact


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Well that's all down to what you reckon a part timer is!!!

Someone for example staying 4 months for a long holiday with no intention whatsoever of remaining permanently -would need to register, find med ins, de- register ( and with de registration apparently taking up to 3 months he would need to register and de register at the same time!!!!!) - all for the difference of 4 weeks hols. Pathetic

In the real world I reckon the poster who stated on here that a bit of reality / sanity is applied in the actual enforcement of these laws- hence no one ever taken to task over staying a month or two too long without registering- got it about right


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

mike kelly said:


> According to that logic, people with a spare room in their house should be forced to allow a homeless person live with them. If banks have repossesed many flats, then let them sell them. Many banks have after all been bailed out by taxpayers.


With think there is a significant difference between an unoccupied flat and someone's home.
Yes, taxpayers bailed out the banks.so by your logic surely the homeless should be able to make use of these empty properties in order not to be an additional burden on taxpayers.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Rabbitcat said:


> Well that's all down to what you reckon a part timer is!!!
> 
> Someone for example staying 4 months for a long holiday with no intention whatsoever of remaining permanently -would need to register, find med ins, de- register ( and with de registration apparently taking up to 3 months he would need to register and de register at the same time!!!!!) - all for the difference of 4 weeks hols. Pathetic
> 
> In the real world I reckon the poster who stated on here that a bit of reality / sanity is applied in the actual enforcement of these laws- hence no one ever taken to task over staying a month or two too long without registering- got it about right


 you're talking about registering as resident - a totally different issue

the padrón rules are simple - you are on the padrón wherever you spend the majority of the year - more than half the year cumulatively

so while that could be considered 'part time' - you'd actually *be* resident & wouldn't have to worry about de-registering & re-registering over & over...........& you'd also be tax resident, of course


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Yeah. Best just play tourist until you really have to register for anything. Lot simpler


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Rabbitcat said:


> Yeah. Best just play tourist until you really have to register for anything. Lot simpler


:confused2:


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

mike kelly said:


> Anyway, to sum up, it IS possible for a non resident property owner to register at the local town hall and if you have previously worked in Spain for more than three years you can also remain registered on the EU foreigeners register.


No one has said that it isn't possible! What we have said, repeatedly, is that one shouldn't or mustn't register unless Spain is your PERMANENT home.

The officials at the town hall are both (sometimes) unaware of the actual rules and are trying to feather their own nest by having more people on their books and so get more money from Madrid.


So, to sum it up, you should only register on the padron if Spain is your permanent home - that is, where you spend the majority of your time.


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## mike kelly (Aug 12, 2009)

snikpoh said:


> No one has said that it isn't possible! What we have said, repeatedly, is that one shouldn't or mustn't register unless Spain is your PERMANENT home.
> 
> The officials at the town hall are both (sometimes) unaware of the actual rules and are trying to feather their own nest by having more people on their books and so get more money from Madrid.
> 
> ...


I respect your opinion but we'll have to agree to differ on this one.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

mike kelly said:


> I respect your opinion but we'll have to agree to differ on this one.


it isn't a matter of opinion - it's a matter of the law

Â¿QuÃ© es el empadronamiento?

it's very clear that you register on the padrón wherever you are *habitually resident*


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> it isn't a matter of opinion - it's a matter of the law
> 
> Â¿QuÃ© es el empadronamiento?
> 
> it's very clear that you register on the padrón wherever you are *habitually resident*


And this same info is also avaiable in English in the link I gave in post2!!
https://www.gov.uk/residency-requirements-in-spain#registering-on-the-padrn
_Registering on the padrón __The padrón is a list of all the people who *live in a certain town*. Empadronarse is the act of registering yourself on this list with your local town hall. _
*Who should register?*

_It is obligatory by Spanish law to register on the padrón at the Town Hall* where you habitually reside*, yet many British ex-pats still have not done so. Perhaps some view the padrón as a means of vigilance by the state, in ‘big-brother’ fashion. However, in reality, it is simply a way for the town hall to know how many people live in their area, without entering into investigations as to a person’s official residence status or financial affairs._


Here's another one
Ciudadanos extranjeros
_The “Padrón Muncipal” is an administrative record where all residents of a municipality are registered. It reflects, among others, the personal data, nationality, identity card or passport number, level of education and the habitual residence.
Registration in the Municipal Register* constitutes proof of residence in the town and habitual residence in the same, *although it does not constitute proof of legal residence in Spain nor will it give any right not conferred by the current legislation._


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

mike kelly said:


> I respect your opinion but we'll have to agree to differ on this one.


You can differ all you like but I am actually quoting the law.

If you'd like to argue the law - best of luck. It'll cost you loads!


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## mike kelly (Aug 12, 2009)

snikpoh said:


> You can differ all you like but I am actually quoting the law.
> 
> If you'd like to argue the law - best of luck. It'll cost you loads!


I already did register, it cost me just 10 euro 30 cent.

As far as the Padron is concerned, check this link from the Catalan government.

Empadronamiento - Guía de acogida

Para empadronarnos es necesario, aparte del documento de identidad del solicitante, acreditar la disponibilidad de alojamiento mediante las escrituras de propiedad (escriptures de propietat) de la vivienda, el contrato de alquiler (contracte de lloguer) o cualquier otro documento que acredite la titularidad de la vivienda,


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Yes, but look what the opening sentence says;



> El empadronamiento (empadronament) es el acto de registrarse en el Ayuntamiento de residencia habitual y que determina


.... habitual residence ... That is, where you more permanently live!

QED!


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## tantocomo (Jan 14, 2015)

As far as I see it it is a legal requirement


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