# Spain's population is falling



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

For the first time ever, there are more people leaving the country than immigrants arriving.

Since January this year, 300,000 people have left the country. This includes Spaniards moving abroad in search of work and immigrants returning to their home countries . But only 224,000 have arrived here from other countries.

The number of births exceeded the number of deaths in the same period, but this is not enough to compensate for the mass emigration. And the birth rate has fallen to 1.38; not enough to sustain the population.

España pierde población · ELPAÍS.com

Summary in English: Spain's population in decline as emigrants outpace immigrants · ELPAÍS.com in English


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2011)

_A por una familia numerosa!_


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Something good has come out of the crisis then


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

jimenato said:


> Something good has come out of the crisis then


Why do you think it's good?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

The main part of the problem, as has been flagged-up elsewhere, is the average educated Spaniard is either remaining single until later or limiting the family size to one or two children at most. 

Then when you factor in immigrants who may have more than one wife each producing five, six or more children, then it is easy to see that countries will change political, ethnic, religious, etc affiliations without a shot being fired and we will all be ruled by the Taliban.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

I certainly can't see any reason to think that more people would be a good thing (more people = more finite resource usage etc), an absolutely static population is not possible, therefore gradual reduction is best.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

jimenato said:


> I certainly can't see any reason to think that more people would be a good thing (more people = more finite resource usage etc), an absolutely static population is not possible, therefore gradual reduction is best.


The trouble with that theory is the tax and social security contributions of the working population is what helps to keep the services that we have all come to depend on, going. The same thing applies to those who expect to receive a state pension in due course. This is the problem being faced by the UK at the moment.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> The trouble with that theory is the tax and social security contributions of the working population is what helps to keep the services that we have all come to depend on, going. The same thing applies to those who expect to receive a state pension in due course. This is the problem being faced by the UK at the moment.


But the answers isn't a continually rising population, the UK's population has risen by 20% in the last 50 years. Another answer must be found.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> The main part of the problem, as has been flagged-up elsewhere, is the average educated Spaniard is either remaining single until later or limiting the family size to one or two children at most.
> 
> Then when you factor in immigrants who may have more than one wife each producing five, six or more children, then it is easy to see that countries will change political, ethnic, religious, etc affiliations without a shot being fired and we will all be ruled by the Taliban.


I haven't come across any immigrants with more than one wife, either in the UK or in Spain. I wonder where they all are? 

On the other hand I know lots of serial monogamists who seem to have a new child or two each time they get a new partner. 

Your argument reminds me of the Ulster Unionists, Ian Paisley and his ilk, who were afraid the Catholics would keep having more and more children until eventually they formed a majority. 

So they kept spreading rumours that Catholics ate babies and so forth until their followers were so scared they started burning the Catholics' houses to make them move. 

We don't want to go down that road, do we?


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

jimenato said:


> I certainly can't see any reason to think that more people would be a good thing (more people = more finite resource usage etc), an absolutely static population is not possible, therefore gradual reduction is best.


But these people aren't leaving the planet, so they aren't using any less resources. 

It's economic migration, to Spain's detriment, as the most employable people are leaving to get a better deal elsewhere.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> But these people aren't leaving the planet, so they aren't using any less resources.
> 
> It's economic migration, to Spain's detriment, as the most employable people are leaving to get a better deal elsewhere.


The article didn't mention that.


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## bobbylennox (Jul 13, 2011)

in Ireland we call it the brain drain, we endured it for generations and its back with a bang now.

i was working in a hotel in rural scotland where 10 of the 30 staff were Spanish, many of them university leavers who had no prospects so decided to get a bit of travelling done until things pick up again.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> The trouble with that theory is the tax and social security contributions of the working population is what helps to keep the services that we have all come to depend on, going. The same thing applies to those who expect to receive a state pension in due course. This is the problem being faced by the UK at the moment.


How true and so often forgotten.
And of course a flourishing private sector is essential to help produce that revenue.
I worked for years in the public sector with my salary paid by those tax earners.
My OH contributed via her business and her employees to that vital revenue.
It's important to get the public/private sector balance right, something Gordon Brown failed to do.
A well-funded public sector is vital to a sound economy but the left often forgets that it has to be paid for.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> How true and so often forgotten.
> And of course a flourishing private sector is essential to help produce that revenue.
> I worked for years in the public sector with my salary paid by those tax earners.
> My OH contributed via her business and her employees to that vital revenue.
> ...


Quite correct, but remember that the thread is about population change. The notion that a continually rising population is needed to provide services and pensions is clearly flawed. The population of the UK has increased from 50 million to over sixty million since the second world war and is projected to be over 70 million in 2033 and yet is still facing problems with provision of services. So a rising population is not the answer - unless of course anyone thinks that population should be rising even faster than it is...

The fact that Spain's population is falling should not, in itself, be a concern. The fact that it is the wrong people who are leaving however is.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

jimenato said:


> Quite correct, but remember that the thread is about population change. The notion that a continually rising population is needed to provide services and pensions is clearly flawed. The population of the UK has increased from 50 million to over sixty million since the second world war and is projected to be over 70 million in 2033 and yet is still facing problems with provision of services. So a rising population is not the answer - unless of course anyone thinks that population should be rising even faster than it is...
> 
> The fact that Spain's population is falling should not, in itself, be a concern. The fact that it is the wrong people who are leaving however is.


"The notion that a continually rising population is needed to provide services and pensions is clearly flawed" - quite correct. But it's the demographics rather than the raw numbers that matters. If the percentage of the population over retirement age is increasing, the burden falls more heavily on the percentage who are contributing into the system, regardless of whether the population as a whole is rising, falling or static.

Spain's problem (as perceived by the Government) is that the people who are leaving, be they returning immigrants or educated Spaniards, are the ones who would have been contributing.


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