# Dangerous dog?



## billyredbull

For a change, does anyone know if an American Bulldog is classed as a "dangerous dog" in Spain, also a British Bulldog.??


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## xabiaxica

billyredbull said:


> For a change, does anyone know if an American Bulldog is classed as a "dangerous dog" in Spain, also a British Bulldog.??


taken from the link in our 'useful links' sticky thread



> Dangerous Dogs
> 
> 
> Any person owning a potentially dangerous dog (perros potencialmente peligrosos) in Spain must have an appropriate licence (by law of article 3 of the Royal Decree 287/2002, of 22 of March 2002) and the dog must be registered with the municipality. Handlers and walkers of dangerous or potentially dangerous dogs must also be licenced (article 1, 2 of Law 50/1999, of December 1999). A licence is valid for five years.
> 
> Potentially dangerous dog are identified as being in one of three categories:
> 
> 1) Breeds and breed crosses classified as potentially dangerous:
> 
> Doberman (Andalucia only)
> Pit Bull Terrier
> Staffordshire Bull Terrier
> American Staffordshire Terrier
> Rottweiler
> Dogo Argentino
> Fila Brasileiro
> Tosa Inu
> Akita Inu
> 
> 2) Dogs with certain characteristics of these breeds are also classified as potentially dangerous. The characteristics are:
> 
> Strong musculature, powerful or athletic constitution, robustness, agility, vigor and endurance
> Short hair
> Deep chest (60 to 80 cm), height of over 50 cm and a weight over 20 Kg
> Big, square, head, with a wide skull and strong jaws
> Broad, short and muscled neck.
> Straight, parallel forelegs and muscular hindquarters, relatively long back legs standing at an angle
> 
> 3) Dogs that have a track record of aggression to humans and other animals must also be licenced and registered.


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## xicoalc

Although there are national guidelines, each local ajuntamiento publishes its own rules, so check with a local vet or yoru town hall.

Either way, even if so, that does not been that they ae banned, just a bit of additional paperwork needs to be completed. Then there is the issue of muzzles which should be worn on these breeds unless they have completed an annual psychological test by an approved vet.

The whole law is complete and utter s**t in my opinion. Having owned dogs all my life and taken a keen interest in dog psychology in recent years, i hate this "breed discrimination" that we see here in Spain and so many other countries. I am the proud owner of a rotty who, thanks to being balanced, well brough up, and having good leadership is about as likley to bite anyone as a rabbit.

The crazy thing is that vets who make the decision on muzzel or no muzzel are NOT specialists in dog psychology. You only have to look at how vets often immediately muzzel certain breeds before they will look at them.

I love point 3 -


> 3) Dogs that have a track record of aggression to humans and other animals must also be licenced and registered.


Try chewawahs! FACT: more people get bitten by small dogs then ANY "dangerous breed" or dog over 25kg. Its just that if a toy dog bites you you get a small wound, so it doesnt make the papers - if a rotty or pitt bull pites then its serious!

Every day I cycle with my pack and its only ever small dogs yapping in fields that cause issues, in fact a jack russel frequently has a go at mine, and in fact only yesterday attcked one of mine because its stupid bloody owner leaves the gate open… then theres the idiot up the road who has a spaniel that is chained to a 6 foot chain day and night… and the owner complains when my dogs go past (quietly and controlled0 for "making his dog upset"…grrrr… uff I am woffling here.

Don't place restrictions on breeds of dogs - place restictions on types of owners!

Check out this video about Pitt Bulls


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## MaidenScotland

steve_in_spain said:


> Although there are national guidelines, each local ajuntamiento publishes its own rules, so check with a local vet or yoru town hall.
> 
> Either way, even if so, that does not been that they ae banned, just a bit of additional paperwork needs to be completed. Then there is the issue of muzzles which should be worn on these breeds unless they have completed an annual psychological test by an approved vet.
> 
> The whole law is complete and utter s**t in my opinion. Having owned dogs all my life and taken a keen interest in dog psychology in recent years, i hate this "breed discrimination" that we see here in Spain and so many other countries. I am the proud owner of a rotty who, thanks to being balanced, well brough up, and having good leadership is about as likley to bite anyone as a rabbit.
> 
> The crazy thing is that vets who make the decision on muzzel or no muzzel are NOT specialists in dog psychology. You only have to look at how vets often immediately muzzel certain breeds before they will look at them.
> 
> I love point 3 -
> Try chewawahs! FACT: more people get bitten by small dogs then ANY "dangerous breed" or dog over 25kg. Its just that if a toy dog bites you you get a small wound, so it doesnt make the papers - if a rotty or pitt bull pites then its serious!
> 
> Every day I cycle with my pack and its only ever small dogs yapping in fields that cause issues, in fact a jack russel frequently has a go at mine, and in fact only yesterday attcked one of mine because its stupid bloody owner leaves the gate open… then theres the idiot up the road who has a spaniel that is chained to a 6 foot chain day and night… and the owner complains when my dogs go past (quietly and controlled0 for "making his dog upset"…grrrr… uff I am woffling here.
> 
> Don't place restrictions on breeds of dogs - place restictions on types of owners!
> 
> Check out this video about Pitt Bulls
> 
> The Fight to End Pit Bull Discrimination - YouTube







I have no issues with any dogs and in fact my daughter has 5 plus other various pets however I do have an issue with 

Every day I cycle with my pack 

How can anyone be in control of a pack of dogs when they are on a cycle? 
I expect you to say your dogs are well trained.. my daughters labs are actually working gun dogs who are trained to hand and whistle signals as is the other dogs that they work with however dogs are pack animals and it only takes one to start something off and then all mayhem takes place despite being well trained.


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## xicoalc

MaidenScotland said:


> I have no issues with any dogs and in fact my daughter has 5 plus other various pets however I do have an issue with
> 
> Every day I cycle with my pack
> 
> How can anyone be in control of a pack of dogs when they are on a cycle?
> I expect you to say your dogs are well trained.. my daughters labs are actually working gun dogs who are trained to hand and whistle signals as is the other dogs that they work with however dogs are pack animals and it only takes one to start something off and then all mayhem takes place despite being well trained.


No, my dogs are not "well trained", they are "well balanced". A well balanced dog or pack of dogs will always follow the pack leader and all of my dogs respect me as the pack leader. Therefore when we are cycling we are cycling. My dogs know that if we are walking on leads they can sniff, investigate, and look around, but when we are cycling they are going to concentrate on one thing only and that is me and where i take the bike. 

My bike is equiped with special dog attachments, and the dogs wear body harnesses. I take a great interest in the work of Cesar Milan (The Dog Whisperer) and my dogs have worked with a UK equivelent who is first class… he taught me that in any situation a well balanced dog will respond to the command of his owner… one "pppsssttt" form the owner and he shouls have the dogs attention - 100% and immediately.

2 of mine are naturally athletic dogs and frankly, anything short of a dam good run is not enough excersise for them as I have learned recently. A cycle is a perfect way for them to run until they are completely exhausted - twice a day - without completely exhausting me!

Having said this, I would not recommend cycling with dogs to anyone until their dog is completely balanced because as you have said, one pull in the wrong direction and your going to break a spoke.. and an arm… and probably a dog, but with correct leadership it is the very best way to ecercise energetic dogs!


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## mrypg9

I half agree with you, Steve. Yes, it's bad owners who make bad dogs just like bad parenting turns out little monsters.

But I disagree over the issue of control when out with a pack.

Azor is not named as a dangerous dog in the list -few Spaniards seem to have heard of Rhodesian Ridgebacks. He has many of the characteristics and although neither our vet or RAIA consider him as such - he has his green card from the JdA, insurance, chip, passport - we are very careful with him as his size and shape alone are a cause of alarm to many people especially those with smaller dogs. 

He is well-trained, gentle in nature, friendly to 99% of other dogs but very territorial. But he is a hound and the nature of hounds is to have a certain degree of independence. After all, their work, to sniff, follow a scent and in Azor's case originally to track and contain lions(!) requires an amount of individual thinking and judgment. So although we have control over him on the lead in 99% of instances, there could be times when his instinct is stronger than his trained obedience. Then he is almost unstoppable, even for a big strong man. 

So when in public areas he is always on a lead and a Cannycollar which acts like a muzzle. When he is in places with lots of other dogs such as our vets he wears a proper muzzle. It controls him and reassures others.

We could never let him run with us on our bikes as he could fly off if his instinct prompted him. People who cycle with their dogs unleashed also cause us problems as he tends to be the focus of their interest and he doesn't always take to having his perfumed rear sniffed at by strangers. (I resist the temptation to make further comment....)

So whilst it's undoubtedly fun for you and your pack it can be a problem for others.


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## Solwriter

One of our dogs was reported by a 'kindly' neighbour as fitting certain criteria on the dangerous dogs regulations. He is tall and skinny and very agile, but fell into the part where it's usually up to the discretion of the vet contracted by the local council. 
Luckily he took an instant liking to the lady vet and she to him, so he was not put on the register, with all that that involves.

We do, however, put a muzzle on him (and on a couple of our other galgos) when we take him for walks across the village, or let him run anywhere where there are likely to be humans or other animals.
We do that because most of our dogs are hunting dogs by breed and we know (from past experience in the UK) what a hunting pack (even a usually docile and obedient pack) is capable of.

We also muzzle some of our dogs when they visit the vet for vaccinations and other treatment. The muzzle may add to the dogs distress, which is a shame, but we cannot have them reacting to pain and instinctively biting the vet.

I agree with Steve that it is not about dogs being "well trained", but "well balanced". But, because I have also studied dog psychology specific to the particular breeds we own, in the case of our dogs I know that well balanced for them means being hunting dogs and all the behaviour that may lead to, especially when forming a pack (which could consist of as little as two dogs of similar nature).
We know our dogs very well, despite having so many of them. And we know they all have respect for us as pack leaders (or, in my case, alpha bxxch  - the censor cut out the original word!), but we never let our feelings of being pack leaders override our knowledge of our dogs' capabilities to do harm in particular situations.

It's difficult for any legislation on this to be effective without being to the detriment of some dogs and their owners. And in an ideal world, all dog owners would understand their individual dogs and their character traits and capabilities and act accordingly. So there would be no need for legislation. Sadly, as with everything else, it is not an ideal world, so legislation has to be made.


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## MaidenScotland

Everyone says their dogs are well balanced and or trained and the owner is the Alpha dog.. sorry but as far as I am concerned when you are out walking a large dog that is powerful and strong then it should be one person to one dog.. nothing will change my view on that.


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## billyredbull

My American Bull dog is meant to be a guard dog, but she is so soft she could not guard her own shadow. And my British Bull dog, is another little sweetie, they are both well behaved as we would not have it any other way. We have had dogs all our life, we even had an Arctic Wolf and she was a great friend and well trained, and we lived in the country where there were sheep every where. Never have we had a bad dog.


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## MaidenScotland

This page will be full of posters saying how good their dogs are.. although Cataluna did say that one of her dogs is problematic a while back.


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## Solwriter

MaidenScotland said:


> This page will be full of posters saying how good their dogs are.....


Not in my case.
I recognise that our dogs do not fit any criteria of 'good' as defined by humans.
They are what they are and we treat them accordingly.


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## xicoalc

mrypg9 said:


> I half agree with you, Steve. Yes, it's bad owners who make bad dogs just like bad parenting turns out little monsters.
> 
> But I disagree over the issue of control when out with a pack.
> 
> Azor is not named as a dangerous dog in the list -few Spaniards seem to have heard of Rhodesian Ridgebacks. He has many of the characteristics and although neither our vet or RAIA consider him as such - he has his green card from the JdA, insurance, chip, passport - we are very careful with him as his size and shape alone are a cause of alarm to many people especially those with smaller dogs.
> 
> He is well-trained, gentle in nature, friendly to 99% of other dogs but very territorial. But he is a hound and the nature of hounds is to have a certain degree of independence. After all, their work, to sniff, follow a scent and in Azor's case originally to track and contain lions(!) requires an amount of individual thinking and judgment. So although we have control over him on the lead in 99% of instances, there could be times when his instinct is stronger than his trained obedience. Then he is almost unstoppable, even for a big strong man.
> 
> So when in public areas he is always on a lead and a Cannycollar which acts like a muzzle. When he is in places with lots of other dogs such as our vets he wears a proper muzzle. It controls him and reassures others.
> 
> We could never let him run with us on our bikes as he could fly off if his instinct prompted him. People who cycle with their dogs unleashed also cause us problems as he tends to be the focus of their interest and he doesn't always take to having his perfumed rear sniffed at by strangers. (I resist the temptation to make further comment....)
> 
> So whilst it's undoubtedly fun for you and your pack it can be a problem for others.


I think that everyone knows their own dog and what he/she will or wont do. I think that "trained obedience" is the key here. Most people train their dogs to what they should or should not do, and lets be honest most dogs respond to that most of the time and live quite happily. What is the biigest pleasure is when the dog is not trained to be obedient but when the dog has complete respect for the pack. In the wild dogs follow their pack, you will never see one dog in a natural pack stray off because he sees another animal, the head of thepack leads the way and the rest follow. The same applies in a domestic setting, if the dogs are balanced and know their place in the pack then they are following the pack leader.

A dog may spot something that gets his attention and look, but it is that turn of the head and look that causes the pack leader to look, evaluate and decide if action needs to be taken…when I am out with mine they look to anything they see, and then look to me for instruction. if a dog is inclined to run off, or pulls towards things and has to be corrected by the owner then that dog is challenging the owner to the position of pack leader and therefore not completely balanced.

It's a difficult concept to grasp but one that when you do, makes a wonderful and huge difference to the dogs behaviour, and the relationship between human and dog.


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## MaidenScotland

I had a Labrador from a pup until she died aged 15.. lovely dog soft as butter wont hurt a fly .. until,

I locked us out of the house by mistake..but no problem because the small window in the kitchen was open for ventilation for the dog so my husband climbed up and put his hand in the window to open it.. result 5 stiches.


Instinct is very powerful


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## xicoalc

Solwriter said:


> We do, however, put a muzzle on him (and on a couple of our other galgos) when we take him for walks across the village, or let him run anywhere where there are likely to be humans or other animals.
> We do that because most of our dogs are hunting dogs by breed and we know (from past experience in the UK) what a hunting pack (even a usually docile and obedient pack) is capable of.


All dogs are pack animals though, regardless of their breed origins, and if the balance is right instinct can be overridden… Having said that, its good to be aware of instinct and know if you can or cannot trust your particular dogs. I have 2 huskies and their instinct is to run and pull (hence the bike which completely drains their energy and gives them their purpose in life), but nevertheless they can also walk at my side without any pulling or instictual behaviour if that is what we are out to do.

I do believe that dogs sense your fears and anxieties, and if you have any doubt that they will bite then you are increaing the risk of them doing so. Building that complete trust takes a long time, but when you reach that mutual trust its amazing.

I know that my dogs will not run over to somoene and attack them. What I dont know is how other people will behave to them. If a child runs over and hurts them or startles them then they may react. This is why I only let them off loose when it is a completely isolated area, not because I dont trust the dogs but becuse i dont trust others!



> We also muzzle some of our dogs when they visit the vet for vaccinations and other treatment. The muzzle may add to the dogs distress, which is a shame, but we cannot have them reacting to pain and instinctively biting the vet.


Me too with the rotty, not because i dont trust him but because I know that the vet could, and in many cases will do something that will hurt. So, to my dogs muzzel means fun because they get rewarded after muzzel time, but in some cases such as at the vets yes, I agree, its better than the consequences of the vet loosing an arm!

Its crazy how little vets know about dog psychology. One vet once approached my dog from behind with a stethoscope and wondered why he growled! He didnt even take the time to meetand greet the dog first, just walked into the room spoke to me and went straigt in for the examination! Loco!


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## xicoalc

MaidenScotland said:


> Everyone says their dogs are well balanced and or trained and the owner is the Alpha dog.. sorry but as far as I am concerned when you are out walking a large dog that is powerful and strong then it should be one person to one dog.. nothing will change my view on that.


Thats fine, and I do that also but in nature all the pack walk together. If you always seperate them to walk (and lets remember that walking is the single most primal thing for a pack to bond) then that shows weakness in leadership (because the dogs know you do that because you fear you cant control them), it shows unsettlement in the pack and although most dogs will tollerate this it created unbalance and goes so strongly against everything in doggy DNA.

Look at cesar milan, or any other person who REALLY knows dogs and you will see what I mean… look at this woman and the control she has over her dogs! And I am not saying you shoudl just go for it but you shoudl work towards it definately. If you cant walk all yoru dogs at once then you have a big problem, potential frustrations, and an unbalanced life that could lead to other problems


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## xicoalc

billyredbull said:


> My American Bull dog is meant to be a guard dog, but she is so soft she could not guard her own shadow. And my British Bull dog, is another little sweetie, they are both well behaved as we would not have it any other way. We have had dogs all our life, we even had an Arctic Wolf and she was a great friend and well trained, and we lived in the country where there were sheep every where. Never have we had a bad dog.


Sounds like you got it right and get as much out of your dogs as i do from mine


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## xicoalc

MaidenScotland said:


> This page will be full of posters saying how good their dogs are.. although Cataluna did say that one of her dogs is problematic a while back.


Just to be absolutely clear - in my opinion at least 90% of dogs out there fall into the category of "cant be trusted 100%" but it is my absolute firm believe that 100% of dogs out there can learn to be trusted 100% if the owners stop thinking of them as humans, start thinking of them as dogs, and start ensuring that they treat them the way dogs know and udnerstand, and become a calm, assertive pack leader with no weaknesses, no doubts and no fears!


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## Pesky Wesky

steve_in_spain said:


> Although there are national guidelines, each local ajuntamiento publishes its own rules, so check with a local vet or yoru town hall.
> 
> Either way, even if so, that does not been that they ae banned, just a bit of additional paperwork needs to be completed. Then there is the issue of muzzles which should be worn on these breeds unless they have completed an annual psychological test by an approved vet.
> 
> The whole law is complete and utter s**t in my opinion. Having owned dogs all my life and taken a keen interest in dog psychology in recent years, i hate this "breed discrimination" that we see here in Spain and so many other countries. I am the proud owner of a rotty who, thanks to being balanced, well brough up, and having good leadership is about as likley to bite anyone as a rabbit.
> 
> The crazy thing is that vets who make the decision on muzzel or no muzzel are NOT specialists in dog psychology. You only have to look at how vets often immediately muzzel certain breeds before they will look at them.
> 
> I love point 3 -
> Try chewawahs! FACT: more people get bitten by small dogs then ANY "dangerous breed" or dog over 25kg. Its just that if a toy dog bites you you get a small wound, so it doesnt make the papers - if a rotty or pitt bull pites then its serious!
> 
> Every day I cycle with my pack and its only ever small dogs yapping in fields that cause issues, in fact a jack russel frequently has a go at mine, and in fact only yesterday attcked one of mine because its stupid bloody owner leaves the gate open… then theres the idiot up the road who has a spaniel that is chained to a 6 foot chain day and night… and the owner complains when my dogs go past (quietly and controlled0 for "making his dog upset"…grrrr… uff I am woffling here.
> 
> Don't place restrictions on breeds of dogs - place restictions on types of owners!
> 
> Check out this video about Pitt Bulls
> 
> The Fight to End Pit Bull Discrimination - YouTube


Ayye Daddy, my dog hero.
If anyone/ dog should have been given eternal youth, it should have been him!


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## Solwriter

steve_in_spain said:


> Thats fine, and I do that also but in nature all the pack walk together. If you always seperate them to walk (and lets remember that walking is the single most primal thing for a pack to bond) then that shows weakness in leadership (because the dogs know you do that because you fear you cant control them), it shows unsettlement in the pack and although most dogs will tollerate this it created unbalance and goes so strongly against everything in doggy DNA.
> 
> Look at cesar milan, or any other person who REALLY knows dogs and you will see what I mean… look at this woman and the control she has over her dogs! And I am not saying you shoudl just go for it but you shoudl work towards it definately. If you cant walk all yoru dogs at once then you have a big problem, potential frustrations, and an unbalanced life that could lead to other problems


If we took all of our dogs out for a walk at once we wouldn't have enough arms!

I do understand MaidenScotland's sentiments when she says it should be one big, powerful dog per owner when going for a walk.
Although I'm fairly strong, I am of small build and, if they were so inclined, any of our larger dogs could pull me over (or pull me along with them) with very little effort.
And it is more other peoples' perception of this possibility than what is actually likely to happen. Hence the muzzles, and the fact that we take our dogs for a walk in small groups (very small, when it comes to the larger ones).
Living where we do in Spain, we have to get on with the neighbours, so we always try to consider their feelings about this situation. Makes for a less stressful life.

As to Cesar Milan...
I am a great fan of his work with dogs and his understanding of them. 
Watching him show people how their feelings affect their dogs reactions has been a great help to someone like me, who can never rely on strength along to control a dog.

However...
Even Cesar Milan has been heard to say that one of our particular galgo breeds is extremely hard to train, or control. Its very much down to their nature.
We accept that and allow for this accordingly.


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## xicoalc

Solwriter said:


> However...
> Even Cesar Milan has been heard to say that one of our particular galgo breeds is extremely hard to train, or control. Its very much down to their nature.
> We accept that and allow for this accordingly.


I agree… there are always certain exceptions and cases that need to be dealt with on their individual merits and you, like me seem to have your head screwed on when it comes to dogs. What really gets my goat is when people make negative generalisations such as "people should only walk one dog at a time" or "rottweilers bite people". These views are based on lack of understanding, possible bad experiences, and certainly wrong assumptions about certain breeds.

Recently I was walking with a dog psychologist and my rotty. We walked past a local house (in campo) where their poor dog is on a chain 24/7. Naturally their dog got excited and was barking as we passed (as he does every day). We stopped because we were doing some testing work with my rotty and seeing his reactions (its important to test the dogs reaction to various situations at various times when it is a controlled situation). Mine went to sleep on the floor with big brown eyes looking up as if to say "can we go please, that little dog is giving me a headache".

Anyway, the owner of the dog came out and accused me of being irresponsible for walking my rotty in the street…. ermmm… hello! This is the man who responsibly keeps his playful little pup in a 5 foot chain day and night… "your rottweiler is making my dog distressed" he said…. " i think you are the one making it distressed, not me or my dog". We have even offered to let the little chap meet mypack and walk with us btu he doesnt entertain that because his dog gets all the excercise he needs in the chain… stupid pillock! In the UK the RSPCA would do something about him, but here no 

Anyway :focus:

People in general need to learn more about dogs, or shouldnt be allowed to have them…most "aggressive" dogs in shelters are only that way due to how humans have treated them and neglected their basic needs.


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## VFR

*Potentially Dangerous ?*

To my mind that equals big,powerful,known aggressive tendencies,often used as guards dogs etc etc.
To my mind that should mean they should always be muzzled when out of the owners property.


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## xicoalc

playamonte said:


> *Potentially Dangerous ?*
> 
> To my mind that equals big,powerful,known aggressive tendencies,often used as guards dogs etc etc.
> To my mind that should mean they should always be muzzled when out of the owners property.


Potentially Agressive in Spain means any dog over 25kg OR certain breeds. Look at the real figures of Rottweiler or GSD attacks vs jack russel attacks… you will find if you carefulyl study this and ask any decent trainer that for every 1 rotty bite there are 10 small dog bites but they go unreported. Pitt Bulls… reputation is aggressive and attacks… reality is that owners buy them for this, or dont understand them enough and how to control them.

Give me an aggressive pittbull for a month, and I will have that dog mixing with other dogs, meeting people, and showing no aggression… guaranteed! Breed racism is all too common and this fuels people who buy them for that reason. It's true that some dogs are strong dominant dogs and in many cases, even the loving cuddly one, its not properly balanced and could try to show aggression, but my point is that with the right owner and the right conditioning you are no more likely to get bitten by a rottie or a pitt bull than you are a poodle….FACT!

Yes, if a dog is not properly conditioned an balanced then of couse muzzel them, but its so sad to see so many unconditioned dogs out there who s owners resort to this because they don't really truly understand what is happpening in the dogs head and how to address it!

Muzzell ALL dogs over 25kg is like saying ban drinking for all brits in benidorm - just because some take it too far and are not in control that doesnt mean all the others shoudl suffer!


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## xicoalc

MaidenScotland said:


> I had a Labrador from a pup until she died aged 15.. lovely dog soft as butter wont hurt a fly .. until,
> 
> I locked us out of the house by mistake..but no problem because the small window in the kitchen was open for ventilation for the dog so my husband climbed up and put his hand in the window to open it.. result 5 stiches.
> 
> 
> Instinct is very powerful


Obviously if that has been burgular bill you would have been chuffed with the dog for guarding the house. Dogs work on smell first followed by hearing and sight. They usually smell people from feet, legs, crotchy areas, and the places that give off the strongest odours (even when we smell fresh as a daisy they know our scent). For a dog to bite you because you put your hand through the window would indicate that the dog didnt know it was you - in fact thought it was an intruder. Hands are not the best thing for giving the scent because they get washed so much and come into contact with so many other smells.

Obviously in this situation its paramount that you ensure the dog knows its you before putting in the hand. Your dog is always used to you going in and out through the door so the last thing they expext if mum or dad shoving hands through windows. Talking to the dog as you aproach, calling over the dog through the window, and maybe throwing in your shoe or something that gives yoru scent are all good ways for the dog to realse your not an intruder but actually the pack leader taking an unconventional entrance into the house.


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## MaidenScotland

steve_in_spain said:


> Obviously if that has been burgular bill you would have been chuffed with the dog for guarding the house. Dogs work on smell first followed by hearing and sight. They usually smell people from feet, legs, crotchy areas, and the places that give off the strongest odours (even when we smell fresh as a daisy they know our scent). For a dog to bite you because you put your hand through the window would indicate that the dog didnt know it was you - in fact thought it was an intruder. Hands are not the best thing for giving the scent because they get washed so much and come into contact with so many other smells.
> 
> Obviously in this situation its paramount that you ensure the dog knows its you before putting in the hand. Your dog is always used to you going in and out through the door so the last thing they expext if mum or dad shoving hands through windows. Talking to the dog as you aproach, calling over the dog through the window, and maybe throwing in your shoe or something that gives yoru scent are all good ways for the dog to realse your not an intruder but actually the pack leader taking an unconventional entrance into the house.




mmm it was a window.. the dog could see us, of course we were talking and in fact as we walked up the path she heard us and was looking at us tail wagging.. regardless of the stiches we didnt blame the dog as she knew that going in through the window was not the norm and she reacted to it 


Sorry but I really do not need to be told how to approach my own dog..


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## xicoalc

MaidenScotland said:


> Sorry but I really do not need to be told how to approach my own dog..


Well…(and I mean this in the most respectful possiblle way but..) judging by the fact you got bitten by your own dog for approaching clearly wrongly then I think you'll find you do! 

1) Dog hears you walking up drive - knows its you - wags tail
2) Dogs eyes work differently to us and I am assuming this maybe was at night when lights and reflections would hinder dogs vision through windows
3) If the dog really knew it was you (ie your hand) then I doubt very much it would bite you if it was approached in the right way and was in a calm submissive state (and not full of excitement which leads to confusion) before you entered!

But obviously you have the opinion that its more normal to walk one dog at a time and split the pack, instead of the whole pack, or small groups from within a pack, and maintian balance, so it kind of reflects your whole lack of understanding towards dog behaviour and how their minds work!


----------



## MaidenScotland

steve_in_spain said:


> Well…(and I mean this in the most respectful possiblle way but..) judging by the fact you got bitten by your own dog for approaching clearly wrongly then I think you'll find you do!
> 
> 1) Dog hears you walking up drive - knows its you - wags tail
> 2) Dogs eyes work differently to us and I am assuming this maybe was at night when lights and reflections would hinder dogs vision through windows
> 3) If the dog really knew it was you (ie your hand) then I doubt very much it would bite you if it was approached in the right way and was in a calm submissive state (and not full of excitement which leads to confusion) before you entered!
> 
> But obviously you have the opinion that its more normal to walk one dog at a time and split the pack, instead of the whole pack, or small groups from within a pack, and maintian balance, so it kind of reflects your whole lack of understanding towards dog behaviour and how their minds work!




If you read my post you will see what happened,


----------



## Solwriter

Getting back to the subject of potentially dangerous dogs in Spain....

The main problem, as I see it, is not so much dogs with owners who care for them, as it is the large number of dogs who have no home and wander the streets. Or those who have a home, but are let out to wander at dawn and let back in again at sunset.

In order to try to deal with the dog problem, the Spanish government (together with local councils defining their own interpretations) have tried to strengthen the law, but in doing so, they have targeted those owners more likely to give a damn than those who do not. But isn't that always the way with this type of legislation?


----------



## xicoalc

Solwriter said:


> Getting back to the subject of potentially dangerous dogs in Spain....
> 
> The main problem, as I see it, is not so much dogs with owners who care for them, as it is the large number of dogs who have no home and wander the streets. Or those who have a home, but are let out to wander at dawn and let back in again at sunset.
> 
> In order to try to deal with the dog problem, the Spanish government (together with local councils defining their own interpretations) have tried to strengthen the law, but in doing so, they have targeted those owners more likely to give a damn than those who do not. But isn't that always the way with this type of legislation?


Completely 100% whole heartedly agree! Well said!


----------



## mrypg9

Solwriter said:


> Not in my case.
> I recognise that our dogs do not fit any criteria of 'good' as defined by humans.
> They are what they are and we treat them accordingly.


Our Little Azor looks so cute...he is so obedient and gentle and very friendly with other dogs.

But....he is very territorial and has bitten two small dogs which strayed onto his territory, as he saw it. 

Once was when we lived in the piso for a few months and he and the upstairs dog hated each other.

The second time was when we were about to open our garden gate and a dog had the temerity to walk past...

We paid the vets' bills in each case.


----------



## xicoalc

mrypg9 said:


> Our Little Azor looks so cute...he is so obedient and gentle and very friendly with other dogs.
> 
> But....he is very territorial and has bitten two small dogs which strayed onto his territory, as he saw it.
> 
> Once was when we lived in the piso for a few months and he and the upstairs dog hated each other.
> 
> The second time was when we were about to open our garden gate and a dog had the temerity to walk past...
> 
> We paid the vets' bills in each case.


I think though that he cant be blamed for that, if he is in his house and another dog comes in uninvited then its the same as a human intruder - he will defend!

Obviously if YOU brought the other dog in then really he should accept that because pack leader and bring whoever or whatever they want into the house but if some dog jsut wonders in uninvited then that is nature for the dog to defend when he is in his own house!


----------



## xabiaxica

:focus:

this is all very interesting - I mean it, it really is - but doesn't answer the OP's question


would his dogs be considered 'dangerous' as far as the 'dangerous dogs list' is concerned?


----------



## xicoalc

xabiachica said:


> :focus:
> 
> this is all very interesting - I mean it, it really is - but doesn't answer the OP's question
> 
> 
> would his dogs be considered 'dangerous' as far as the 'dangerous dogs list' is concerned?


By the fact that they weigh more than 25 kilos then I am guessing yes! As others have said, local areas vary, in some areas its listed breeds only, in most its anything over 25kg, and in some its atthe discresion of the vet who does the doggy psycho test!

Rule of thumb though anything over 25kg (20 in some areas) is a killing machine that shoudl be licenced (apparently! )


----------



## Solwriter

xabiachica said:


> :focus:
> 
> this is all very interesting - I mean it, it really is - but doesn't answer the OP's question
> 
> 
> would his dogs be considered 'dangerous' as far as the 'dangerous dogs list' is concerned?


I think his question was answered in this post here.

But as has been mentioned, as his dog doesn't fit a _named_ breed, it would very much be down to those other _possibly potentially dangerous_ criteria and who determines this.


----------



## mrypg9

xabiachica said:


> :focus:
> 
> this is all very interesting - I mean it, it really is - but doesn't answer the OP's question
> 
> 
> would his dogs be considered 'dangerous' as far as the 'dangerous dogs list' is concerned?


Yes. But it's not that simple. Our Little Azor isn't a listed breed but our vet and the local police refuse to categorise him as 'peligroso' although he fits every one of the characteristics.

So as I said we've got 99% of what is required by law including insurance up to 300000 euros and his green registration card plus everything else.

We know that if there is a problem we can count on our vet to support and help us...but as we are very responsible owners I can't foresee a problem.


----------



## xicoalc

mrypg9 said:


> Yes. But it's not that simple. Our Little Azor isn't a listed breed but our vet and the local police refuse to categorise him as 'peligroso' although he fits every one of the characteristics.
> 
> So as I said we've got 99% of what is required by law including insurance up to 300000 euros and his green registration card plus everything else.
> 
> We know that if there is a problem we can count on our vet to support and help us...but as we are very responsible owners I can't foresee a problem.


If you are unsure always ask the local ajuntamiento. If they ae unsure then ask the local police. If they say "no no its fine" ask for a letter from them confirming that your dog, of xyz make and model with microchip number 12345 does not need to be licneced, nor does he need a muzzel and that you have been to ask and this is their confirmed response.

Then your back is covered!


----------



## xabiaxica

Solwriter said:


> I think his question was answered in this post here.
> 
> But as has been mentioned, as his dog doesn't fit a _named_ breed, it would very much be down to those other _possibly potentially dangerous_ criteria and who determines this.


I thought I had - but not being a dog person I wasn't sure how big/heavy those dogs are 


one thing I've always wondered - if it IS a 'dangerous' breed, I've heard about psychological tests being required

now this might be a 'blonde' question - but is that for the dog or the owner?


----------



## xicoalc

xabiachica said:


> I thought I had - but not being a dog person I wasn't sure how big/heavy those dogs are
> 
> 
> one thing I've always wondered - if it IS a 'dangerous' breed, I've heard about psychological tests being required
> 
> now this might be a 'blonde' question - but is that for the dog or the owner?


Both!

To register my little rocky I had to do the following:


I had to take a physical exam (similar to the driving one actually)
I had to undertake a psychological assesment - similar to for a gun licence - in fact question 1 was "do you know how to use a gun: :S
I had to have a criminal record check done by the police
I had to proove I had a minimum of 120,000 euros of liability insurance especially for dangerous dogs
The dog had to have a psychological test with the vet - this allows him to walk without a muzzel if he passes whilst under the responsibility of ME. For any other people they also have to undergo the vet test (the vet test is as much about the owner as it is the dog) - this has to happen every year and a report is sent to the local government. This applies in Valencia but not in all areas, where in some you MUSt always wear a muzzel - I guess at least here in Valencia they have a little bit more brain than some areas!
Then i had to pay money to the mayor and wait
Finally I got my licence (number 3 - shows how many people bother!)


----------



## mrypg9

steve_in_spain said:


> Both!
> 
> To register my little rocky I had to do the following:
> 
> 
> I had to take a physical exam (similar to the driving one actually)
> I had to undertake a psychological assesment - similar to for a gun licence - in fact question 1 was "do you know how to use a gun: :S
> I had to have a criminal record check done by the police
> I had to proove I had a minimum of 120,000 euros of liability insurance especially for dangerous dogs
> The dog had to have a psychological test with the vet - this allows him to walk without a muzzel if he passes whilst under the responsibility of ME. For any other people they also have to undergo the vet test (the vet test is as much about the owner as it is the dog) - this has to happen every year and a report is sent to the local government. This applies in Valencia but not in all areas, where in some you MUSt always wear a muzzel - I guess at least here in Valencia they have a little bit more brain than some areas!
> Then i had to pay money to the mayor and wait
> Finally I got my licence (number 3 - shows how many people bother!)


What does your licence look like, Steve? Azor has a green plastic card, similar to the health card you get, issued by the JdA with his name, breed and chip number.


----------



## Solwriter

xabiachica said:


> I thought I had - but not being a dog person I wasn't sure how big/heavy those dogs are
> 
> 
> one thing I've always wondered - if it IS a 'dangerous' breed, I've heard about psychological tests being required
> 
> now this might be a 'blonde' question - but is that for the dog or the owner?


Steve has already answered the question (extremely well, I may add!).
But a further clarification for those confused about whether this affects their dog or not...

This may well vary by region and area within that region, but in our local area, if a dog does not fall directly into the dangerous breed criteria, but still may fit the other possibles, they will have to be seen by a vet approved by the local Town Hall.

In the case of our dog, we were summoned to appear at a certain time at the approved vets, with all our dog's paperwork.
The vet talked to us for a while, asking us about the dog's welfare mainly - food given, walks taken, recreation areas he had access to, other dogs in our household, etc.
She was definitely assessing us and our answers to her questions.

Then she had a look at the dog - spoke to him and patted him to see his reaction (he loved her!). Then, having gained his confidence, she gave him a quick examination (no muzzle , but he was quite happy to oblige by then).

At the end of all that (it took about 15 minutes), she declared that our dog didn't need to be put on the register, got us to countersign a number of forms, patted him again, smiled, and said hasta luego.


----------



## xabiaxica

steve_in_spain said:


> Both!
> 
> To register my little rocky I had to do the following:
> 
> 
> I had to take a physical exam (similar to the driving one actually)
> I had to undertake a psychological assesment - similar to for a gun licence - in fact question 1 was "do you know how to use a gun: :S
> I had to have a criminal record check done by the police
> I had to proove I had a minimum of 120,000 euros of liability insurance especially for dangerous dogs
> The dog had to have a psychological test with the vet - this allows him to walk without a muzzel if he passes whilst under the responsibility of ME. For any other people they also have to undergo the vet test (the vet test is as much about the owner as it is the dog) - this has to happen every year and a report is sent to the local government. This applies in Valencia but not in all areas, where in some you MUSt always wear a muzzel - I guess at least here in Valencia they have a little bit more brain than some areas!
> Then i had to pay money to the mayor and wait
> Finally I got my licence (number 3 - shows how many people bother!)


wow!!

no wonder some don't bother, as you say


----------



## xicoalc

mrypg9 said:


> What does your licence look like, Steve? Azor has a green plastic card, similar to the health card you get, issued by the JdA with his name, breed and chip number.


Mine is a white plastic laminated thing (credit card size) from the Ajuntamiento with the dogs details (name, chip etc) on the front, and the stamps and signatures of the Mayor and 2nd in command on the back.


----------



## xabiaxica

steve_in_spain said:


> Mine is a white plastic laminated thing (credit card size) from the Ajuntamiento with the dogs details (name, chip etc) on the front, and the stamps and signatures of the Mayor and 2nd in command on the back.


so do the police ever ask for the licence?

for instance, if you were out & about might you be subject to a 'spot check?'


----------



## xicoalc

Solwriter said:


> Steve has already answered the question (extremely well, I may add!).
> But a further clarification for those confused about whether this affects their dog or not...
> 
> This may well vary by region and area within that region, but in our local area, if a dog does not fall directly into the dangerous breed criteria, but still may fit the other possibles, they will have to be seen by a vet approved by the local Town Hall.
> 
> In the case of our dog, we were summoned to appear at a certain time at the approved vets, with all our dog's paperwork.
> The vet talked to us for a while, asking us about the dog's welfare mainly - food given, walks taken, recreation areas he had access to, other dogs in our household, etc.
> She was definitely assessing us and our answers to her questions.
> 
> Then she had a look at the dog - spoke to him and patted him to see his reaction (he loved her!). Then, having gained his confidence, she gave him a quick examination (no muzzle , but he was quite happy to oblige by then).
> 
> At the end of all that (it took about 15 minutes), she declared that our dog didn't need to be put on the register, got us to countersign a number of forms, patted him again, smiled, and said hasta luego.


And charged you 60 euros for the fun of it no?


----------



## Solwriter

steve_in_spain said:


> And charged you 60 euros for the fun of it no?


Cant remember exactly how much was charged, but yes, I had forgotten about that. 
we were more concerned about the dog at the time, so probably would have paid anything!


----------



## mrypg9

steve_in_spain said:


> Mine is a white plastic laminated thing (credit card size) from the Ajuntamiento with the dogs details (name, chip etc) on the front, and the stamps and signatures of the Mayor and 2nd in command on the back.


Sounds like we've got everything we need, then...Azor's card has his name, sex, breed, D.O.B., chip number, vet's name, owner's name amd address.

But it's a registration card from the Junta not the Ayto. Our vet sent off the papers and we got the card in the post.


----------



## jules 123

xabiachica said:


> wow!!
> 
> no wonder some don't bother, as you say


My experience of many dog owners in the UK is that they treat their dogs like furry humans and would probably fail tests like this. Most of the dogs I see in and around my village in the UK are "unbalanced" as a result of poor handling. 

And for the record, I've been around dogs, mainly large ones, all my life and have been bitten twice. Once by a dog who had an injury and I mishandled it (I was ten at the time and working at boarding kennels in the school hols ) and secondly by a neurotic Jack Russell which had been treated like a baby all its life.

From what I've seen in Denia, the locals handle their dogs more appropriately.


----------



## jojo

I'm actually having trouble with my two little pooches at the moment. They are dear, loveable little things, a westie and a small jack russell sized campo dog who we;ve had since he was three weeks old. I cant tell you how soft and sweet they are 99% of the time. Recenty however, they very occasionally have taken to fighting each other - we are trying to work out what sparks it off. They are both nuwetered males and both seem to be happy that the campo dog is the "top dog" These fights they have are nasty, they've ripped chunks out of each other, they've quite seriously damaged my husbands hand and I dont trust them when they're fired up like this. The only way I've found to separate them is to pick one up by his back legs and swing them both against a wall til they let go. Its like someone has flicked a switch in their heads and they have no awareness of anything other than to attack each other

So how ever loving and "part of the family" dogs are, they are dogs

Jo xxx


----------



## dunmovin

MaidenScotland said:


> Everyone says their dogs are well balanced and or trained and the owner is the Alpha dog.. sorry but as far as I am concerned when you are out walking a large dog that is powerful and strong then it should be one person to one dog.. nothing will change my view on that.


That depends on the person. When we lived Hong Kong, our maid's son ( she was the wrong side of 55 and Louie was 26) handled three dogs. A boxer, a lab and a rottwieler. The rottie(named "charcoal") had bitten and drawn blood 4 times, but never with Louie or me. We had a different way of treating the dog

treats such as "doggie choclate" or ignoning when he done something bad


----------



## xicoalc

jojo said:


> I'm actually having trouble with my two little pooches at the moment. They are dear, loveable little things, a westie and a small jack russell sized campo dog who we;ve had since he was three weeks old. I cant tell you how soft and sweet they are 99% of the time. Recenty however, they very occasionally have taken to fighting each other - we are trying to work out what sparks it off. They are both nuwetered males and both seem to be happy that the campo dog is the "top dog" These fights they have are nasty, they've ripped chunks out of each other, they've quite seriously damaged my husbands hand and I dont trust them when they're fired up like this. The only way I've found to separate them is to pick one up by his back legs and swing them both against a wall til they let go. Its like someone has flicked a switch in their heads and they have no awareness of anything other than to attack each other
> 
> So how ever loving and "part of the family" dogs are, they are dogs
> 
> Jo xxx


Sounds like your having a tough time! Out of curiosity did this happen before you moved or justsince the move?


----------



## jojo

steve_in_spain said:


> Sounds like your having a tough time! Out of curiosity did this happen before you moved or justsince the move?


It did happen a couple of times in Spain, altho its definitely worse here in the UK - I think thats something to do with the doors being open there and closed here????? We're trying to work out why they do it. I think its something to do when the westie barks and wants to go outside, the campo dog sees him as being aggressive and attacks him????

Jo xxx


----------



## xicoalc

jojo said:


> It did happen a couple of times in Spain, altho its definitely worse here in the UK - I think thats something to do with the doors being open there and closed here????? We're trying to work out why they do it. I think its something to do when the westie barks and wants to go outside, the campo dog sees him as being aggressive and attacks him????
> 
> Jo xxx


Maybe! Although, if one dog wants to correct another dogfor something that is against the rules (in their eyes) such as barking they will usually do it with a bark or a nip. When dogs are engaging in fighting to that level then there is usually something to do with dominance going on. 

It's possible that with all the changes in your life recently (preparing to move, moving) the dog is sensing tensions and in their eyes unsettlement and just needs a bit of firmer leadership. What often happens when 2 dogs fight is that the owners (trying to help) go hysterical and panic… been there, done that. If something happens such as a scrap the important thing is that you remain calm (easier said than done i know!). 

Dogs live for the moment and the past is forgotten and the future is not something they worry about, just what is happening now. This means that if a dog senses weakness in you they may feel that a new pack leader job is available. Then there may be fights when one dog thinks he is up for it but the other dog thinks its his job. Then, a simple bark for a door to be opened can be taken as a challenge from the other dog and in a flash they are locked onto each other in what looks and sounds like a fight to the death!

Once they both know that there is NO vacency for a new pack leader and you are up for the job this kind of competativness stops and no more fights!

Although its my interest, i am no expert and even with my doggy experience I wouldnt want to say whats going on without seeing them but get hold of some info form Cesar Milan (books, videos etc) or look at his website ( cesarsway) because he addresses some of these issues. Theres clearly a simple problem in one (or both) of their heads and once you find that you will stop the fighting.

When I got my rottie one of my huskies (the softest most stupid one) used to attack him as a pup. Serious blood baths. This is what got me interested in doy psychology. I thought that the husky had a problem, but it turns out he was literally trying to calm the rotty down as he was a bit too bouncy for my packs liking. A bit of calm assertive and consistant reminding them of who is boss soon put a stop to it and now they get on like a house on fire!

Where are you in the UK? If its London or Kent area I know the best dog behaviourist ever, hes great and would fix that problem in a day!:clap2:


----------



## jojo

steve_in_spain said:


> Maybe! Although, if one dog wants to correct another dogfor something that is against the rules (in their eyes) such as barking they will usually do it with a bark or a nip. When dogs are engaging in fighting to that level then there is usually something to do with dominance going on.
> 
> It's possible that with all the changes in your life recently (preparing to move, moving) the dog is sensing tensions and in their eyes unsettlement and just needs a bit of firmer leadership. What often happens when 2 dogs fight is that the owners (trying to help) go hysterical and panic… been there, done that. If something happens such as a scrap the important thing is that you remain calm (easier said than done i know!).
> 
> Dogs live for the moment and the past is forgotten and the future is not something they worry about, just what is happening now. This means that if a dog senses weakness in you they may feel that a new pack leader job is available. Then there may be fights when one dog thinks he is up for it but the other dog thinks its his job. Then, a simple bark for a door to be opened can be taken as a challenge from the other dog and in a flash they are locked onto each other in what looks and sounds like a fight to the death!
> 
> Once they both know that there is NO vacency for a new pack leader and you are up for the job this kind of competativness stops and no more fights!
> 
> Although its my interest, i am no expert and even with my doggy experience I wouldnt want to say whats going on without seeing them but get hold of some info form Cesar Milan (books, videos etc) or look at his website ( cesarsway) because he addresses some of these issues. Theres clearly a simple problem in one (or both) of their heads and once you find that you will stop the fighting.
> 
> When I got my rottie one of my huskies (the softest most stupid one) used to attack him as a pup. Serious blood baths. This is what got me interested in doy psychology. I thought that the husky had a problem, but it turns out he was literally trying to calm the rotty down as he was a bit too bouncy for my packs liking. A bit of calm assertive and consistant reminding them of who is boss soon put a stop to it and now they get on like a house on fire!
> 
> Where are you in the UK? If its London or Kent area I know the best dog behaviourist ever, hes great and would fix that problem in a day!:clap2:


 I'm in Worthing, West Sussex and would gratefully receive any help with this. I've been reading a lot on the internet, but it mainly seems to be about female dogs and/or top dog power struggles. My husband thinks that the campo dog is trying to protect us all and sees the westies barking as a threat to us. Also it seems to happen if/when we have viewings on our house (its on the market). I shut the dogs in the garden when people come to the house and this unsettles them, so when they come back in, their anxiety levels are heightened

I must add that while I'm typing this, I have one dog laying on his back under the duvet with his head on the pillow and the other one is sort of on top of him - they're generally lovely soft, fluffy and cute little pooches, but it shows that even the most loveable dogs have a switch and can change 

Jo xxx


----------



## xicoalc

jojo said:


> I'm in Worthing, West Sussex and would gratefully receive any help with this. I've been reading a lot on the internet, but it mainly seems to be about female dogs and/or top dog power struggles. My husband thinks that the campo dog is trying to protect us all and sees the westies barking as a threat to us. Also it seems to happen if/when we have viewings on our house (its on the market). I shut the dogs in the garden when people come to the house and this unsettles them, so when they come back in, their anxiety levels are heightened
> 
> I must add that while I'm typing this, I have one dog laying on his back under the duvet with his head on the pillow and the other one is sort of on top of him - they're generally lovely soft, fluffy and cute little pooches, but it shows that even the most loveable dogs have a switch and can change
> 
> Jo xxx


Ill send you a PM!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Hey Steve, (or anybody else for that matter)
Have a slight problem with Kala. I think you probably know all about her coming from a home, getting lost, getting seriously injured, making a great recovery???
Well, she's started peeing in the house, but when we're here - sometimes going off to do it somewhere semi secret, and sometimes when she's with us, but chooses the moment when we're not actually looking at her. It's not to do with not being able to get out as she may do it pretty soon after she's been out.
My theory - she's more and more comfortable with us and doesn't yet recognise the boundries and/ or she doesn't know how to ask to be let outside??
How can we teach her not to do this?
Just when we think it's ok, she does it again.
Thank Goodness there are no rugs/ carpets in my house!
Signed
Desperate not to have a pee smelling house, worried dog owner.


----------



## jojo

Pesky Wesky said:


> Hey Steve, (or anybody else for that matter)
> Have a slight problem with Kala. I think you probably know all about her coming from a home, getting lost, getting seriously injured, making a great recovery???
> Well, she's started peeing in the house, but when we're here - sometimes going off to do it somewhere semi secret, and sometimes when she's with us, but chooses the moment when we're not actually looking at her. It's not to do with not being able to get out as she may do it pretty soon after she's been out.
> My theory - she's more and more comfortable with us and doesn't yet recognise the boundries and/ or she doesn't know how to ask to be let outside??
> How can we teach her not to do this?
> Just when we think it's ok, she does it again.
> Thank Goodness there are no rugs/ carpets in my house!
> Signed
> Desperate not to have a pee smelling house, worried dog owner.


 I think dogs pee to mark their territory. Its kinda like us bringing our bits and peices into a house to make it home!!?? Apparently, dog pee contains scents of their emotions too (I read that on t'internet), but only other dogs can sense this - so no, you dont need to go a sniffing to find out how doggie is feeling rofl!!!! But it sounds like your dog is simply saying "this is home now" or maybe he can smell a previous doggie???

My westy fortunately does this in the garden, he pees on every bush, plant, wall, tuft of grass.... followed by the campo dog who sniffs each one and then pees on top of it WTF??!!

Jo xxxx


----------



## Pesky Wesky

jojo said:


> I think dogs pee to mark their territory. Its kinda like us bringing our bits and peices into a house to make it home!!?? Apparently, dog pee contains scents of their emotions too (I read that on t'internet), but only other dogs can sense this - so no, you dont need to go a sniffing to find out how doggie is feeling rofl!!!! But it sounds like your dog is simply saying "this is home now"
> 
> My westy fortunately does this in the garden, he pees on every bush, plant, wall, tuft of grass.... followed by the campo dog who sniffs each one and then pees on top of it WTF??!!
> 
> Jo xxxx


Yeah, but I thought that was more of a male thing and Kala is a you know what, that will get censored if I write it.


----------



## jojo

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yeah, but I thought that was more of a male thing and Kala is a you know what, that will get censored if I write it.


 A "lady" dog lol!!!! I dont know about those having only "boy" dogs. As much as we love em, they are more trouble than they're worth sometimes 

Jo xxx


----------



## xicoalc

Pesky Wesky said:


> Hey Steve, (or anybody else for that matter)
> Have a slight problem with Kala. I think you probably know all about her coming from a home, getting lost, getting seriously injured, making a great recovery???
> Well, she's started peeing in the house, but when we're here - sometimes going off to do it somewhere semi secret, and sometimes when she's with us, but chooses the moment when we're not actually looking at her. It's not to do with not being able to get out as she may do it pretty soon after she's been out.
> My theory - she's more and more comfortable with us and doesn't yet recognise the boundries and/ or she doesn't know how to ask to be let outside??
> How can we teach her not to do this?
> Just when we think it's ok, she does it again.
> Thank Goodness there are no rugs/ carpets in my house!
> Signed
> Desperate not to have a pee smelling house, worried dog owner.


Ufff… well, if this is something that has jsut started then its one of 3 things (in my humble opinion, and i am no expert)…

Either
She seems to think the rules have changed and is confused over where she can do it, or
She is nervous (you say she seems to run off to hide), or
She is sick and cant wait.

First thing I learned about housetraining a dog is not to punish them when they make mistakes. Dogs never do anythin gto intentionally upset you. By this I mean that sometimes a child will "play up" but dogs dont do that. Sometimes owners give a smack on the bum or scream when their dog has an accident. Although negative energy it is still affection (attention) you are giving the dog and this can reinforce the behaviour.

In my opinion you need to start as a pup and watch her closely. If she looks like she is going to "go", or starts to scurry off somewhere quiet then you need to get her outside asap. If she is mid flow when you see her then literally pick her up and put her down outside. Say nothing - zip squiddly - and remember to be calm.

When she goes outside, lots of fuss and love and a treat. 

See how you get on with this. This will reinforce what she already knows but obviously if there is another underlying reason you need to get advice form an expert, and as I said don't forget that it could even be something medical - incontinence? How old is she?


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## Pesky Wesky

steve_in_spain said:


> Ufff… well, if this is something that has jsut started then its one of 3 things (in my humble opinion, and i am no expert)…
> 
> Either
> She seems to think the rules have changed and is confused over where she can do it, or
> She is nervous (you say she seems to run off to hide), or
> She is sick and cant wait.
> 
> First thing I learned about housetraining a dog is not to punish them when they make mistakes. Dogs never do anythin gto intentionally upset you. By this I mean that sometimes a child will "play up" but dogs dont do that. Sometimes owners give a smack on the bum or scream when their dog has an accident. Although negative energy it is still affection (attention) you are giving the dog and this can reinforce the behaviour.
> 
> In my opinion you need to start as a pup and watch her closely. If she looks like she is going to "go", or starts to scurry off somewhere quiet then you need to get her outside asap. If she is mid flow when you see her then literally pick her up and put her down outside. Say nothing - zip squiddly - and remember to be calm.
> 
> When she goes outside, lots of fuss and love and a treat.
> 
> See how you get on with this. This will reinforce what she already knows but obviously if there is another underlying reason you need to get advice form an expert, and as I said don't forget that it could even be something medical - incontinence? How old is she?


Steve, she's young only about 1 and a half yrs.
I really don't think it's a medical problem - it's not an everyday occurance. We don't know her past history, but apart from weeing herself with pleasure when we saw her in the morning when we first got her, this hasn't happened before. She came to us a month before her (estimated) first birthday. Given her quite dramatic past (abandoned in the country, possibly from birth, taken to dog's home, adopted by us, lost in another town in Spain for 5 days, hit by car, losing one eye and over a month's recovery) she's quite possibly confused. But why has she started doing it now, when she's happy and contented again?? She has great walks with us, runs like the wind (seriously quicker than 98% of the dogs we meet up with) despite having only one eye, is sociable with people and dogs - a little wary sometimes, but not always.
Answers here please - or on another thread??


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## xicoalc

Pesky Wesky said:


> Steve, she's young only about 1 and a half yrs.
> I really don't think it's a medical problem - it's not an everyday occurance. We don't know her past history, but apart from weeing herself with pleasure when we saw her in the morning when we first got her, this hasn't happened before. She came to us a month before her (estimated) first birthday. Given her quite dramatic past (abandoned in the country, possibly from birth, taken to dog's home, adopted by us, lost in another town in Spain for 5 days, hit by car, losing one eye and over a month's recovery) she's quite possibly confused. But why has she started doing it now, when she's happy and contented again?? She has great walks with us, runs like the wind (seriously quicker than 98% of the dogs we meet up with) despite having only one eye, is sociable with people and dogs - a little wary sometimes, but not always.
> Answers here please - or on another thread??


If she used to have a weak bladder when she was excited, perhaps she is getting the same when she is scared.. i mean.. can you tie up any links between when she does it and what happens in the house… things like… arguments, workmen, bangs, anything at all?

What times of day does it happen if it does? Is there any pattern to the behaviour? Anything like that?


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## Solwriter

Pesky Wesky said:


> Hey Steve, (or anybody else for that matter)
> Have a slight problem with Kala. I think you probably know all about her coming from a home, getting lost, getting seriously injured, making a great recovery???
> Well, she's started peeing in the house, but when we're here - sometimes going off to do it somewhere semi secret, and sometimes when she's with us, but chooses the moment when we're not actually looking at her. It's not to do with not being able to get out as she may do it pretty soon after she's been out.
> My theory - she's more and more comfortable with us and doesn't yet recognise the boundries and/ or she doesn't know how to ask to be let outside??
> How can we teach her not to do this?
> Just when we think it's ok, she does it again.
> Thank Goodness there are no rugs/ carpets in my house!
> Signed
> Desperate not to have a pee smelling house, worried dog owner.


I think that Kala is confused about house rules since she's had her accident and subsequent ops. 

She has made a good recovery and, as you have said, seems to be coping fine having only one eye. But for a dog, who sees sideways rather than forward as humans do (if you see what I mean), she may still be learning to cope with this, or at times get caught out. She may appear absolutely in charge of the situation, but to her, she may well still be adjusting.

A similar thing happened to one of our dogs after she underwent an emergency hysterectomy (she was going to have a planned one, but infection after her first season got there first). She had been perfectly ok about peeing outside and after her op was perfectly fine again for a couple of weeks... and then all of a sudden she started the peeing indoors.
We thought at first she was showing problems after her op, or had a UTI, but the vet checked her out and found nothing wrong. It was simply that she was sorting out her house rules all over again.

We did what Steve has suggested - picked her up (even mid flow - not great for cleaning up, but never mind!) and put her outside.
When she went outside to pee under her own volition, we praised her exhuberently (at least, I did, my husband is not one for praising dogs for peeing ), and after a few days she was fine and back into her previous ways of not peeing in the house.

So, I hope its just something like that happening with Karla.

And as for marking their scent, I've noticed that some of our female dogs are as keen on doing this as our male dogs. It just seems to be a dog thing.


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## Pesky Wesky

steve_in_spain said:


> If she used to have a weak bladder when she was excited, perhaps she is getting the same when she is scared.. i mean.. can you tie up any links between when she does it and what happens in the house… things like… arguments, workmen, bangs, anything at all?
> 
> What times of day does it happen if it does? Is there any pattern to the behaviour? Anything like that?


First, apologies to the person who opened this thread - you can always unsubscribe if you don't find my dog's peeing habits as riveting as others seem to!

Yes, perhaps she does have a tendency to weak bladder issues, but my gut feeling is no. It's not like she's planning it, but it's not spontaneous, like she got caught short kind of thing.

The time when she always spends time on her own is for a couple of hours in the morning, and so far we've had no "accidents" then. It's most likely to happen when we're all in the house, which is what she likes best - all the pack together  When she comes back from a walk she'll zoom round the house looking for those who haven't been to make sure she's got everyone pinpointed.

We've had workmen in the house for a couple of hours 2 days and nothing happened around those days...


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## Pesky Wesky

Solwriter said:


> I think that Kala is confused about house rules since she's had her accident and subsequent ops.
> 
> She has made a good recovery and, as you have said, seems to be coping fine having only one eye. But for a dog, who sees sideways rather than forward as humans do (if you see what I mean), she may still be learning to cope with this, or at times get caught out. She may appear absolutely in charge of the situation, but to her, she may well still be adjusting.
> 
> A similar thing happened to one of our dogs after she underwent an emergency hysterectomy (she was going to have a planned one, but infection after her first season got there first). She had been perfectly ok about peeing outside and after her op was perfectly fine again for a couple of weeks... and then all of a sudden she started the peeing indoors.
> We thought at first she was showing problems after her op, or had a UTI, but the vet checked her out and found nothing wrong. It was simply that she was sorting out her house rules all over again.
> 
> We did what Steve has suggested - picked her up (even mid flow - not great for cleaning up, but never mind!) and put her outside.
> When she went outside to pee under her own volition, we praised her exhuberently (at least, I did, my husband is not one for praising dogs for peeing ), and after a few days she was fine and back into her previous ways of not peeing in the house.
> 
> So, I hope its just something like that happening with Karla.
> 
> And as for marking their scent, I've noticed that some of our female dogs are as keen on doing this as our male dogs. It just seems to be a dog thing.


It seems to fit in more with what you're saying than an infection or anything.
Also the thing about she seems to be fine, but perhaps she's still sorting herself out seems to ring true. She seemed to be great before we went to Bilbao and she got lost, but compared to how well adjusted she seems now, I know she still wasn't 100% adapted. All the time we've had her she's slowly changed. She's liked x place in the house for a month and then she changed. She didn't used to go in the kitchen, but slowly she'd discovered it's warm and there's food, but it took her a few months to put it all together - or to feel comfortable enopugh to be there.
However she learnt sit, echar, her name , la pata and heel with few problems so she's not dim or difficult.

Picking her up is not really an option with her being 16 kilos, I mean, I can do it, but .. and if it means getting pee all over me, well, there are limits to my patience. At times we've dragged her, but it's not nice to do and not nice for her.

So just patience and praising.

Thanks for taking the time to write you two


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## xicoalc

Pesky Wesky said:


> It seems to fit in more with what you're saying than an infection or anything.
> Also the thing about she seems to be fine, but perhaps she's still sorting herself out seems to ring true. She seemed to be great before we went to Bilbao and she got lost, but compared to how well adjusted she seems now, I know she still wasn't 100% adapted. All the time we've had her she's slowly changed. She's liked x place in the house for a month and then she changed. She didn't used to go in the kitchen, but slowly she'd discovered it's warm and there's food, but it took her a few months to put it all together - or to feel comfortable enopugh to be there.
> However she learnt sit, echar, her name , la pata and heel with few problems so she's not dim or difficult.
> 
> Picking her up is not really an option with her being 16 kilos, I mean, I can do it, but .. and if it means getting pee all over me, well, there are limits to my patience. At times we've dragged her, but it's not nice to do and not nice for her.
> 
> So just patience and praising.
> 
> Thanks for taking the time to write you two


Shes been through a hell of a lot in recent times, so obviously she needs, and deserves the patience that you are clearly giving her. The good thing is that the weather is slowly picking up which means that you can spend a bit more time outdoors with her…. keep an eye on her, reinforce the correct behaviour (ie going to toilet outside) with lots of fuss and be patient… if she has been inside a while take her outside whether she asks or not… wait until she goes and then fuss her… even if that does take time… then immediately shes been bring her in, nice biscuit etc. 

My boys are very good and ask when they need to go but I have to admit that even now I am in the habit of being proactive - if we have all been inside for 3 or 4 hours and they have not been then I will get up and tell them its time for a wee! Generally they all go out, do their business and come back in… but even though they are completely housetrained I always reinforce it with a "good boy" if I am around them when they go.

I am sure that if you adopt a proactive role, get her outside under supervision as often as you can (and gradually increase the time between toilet breaks), give loads of love when she gets it right, it will all start to fit into place - but be consistent and patient! DONT WAIT for her to ask, if she doesnt know how - take away that potential problem. Oh, and for a while try and use the same door into the garden (the one closest to where you all spend most of your time) then she will get into the habit of going to that door when she wants to go out!

Also, a tip a vet once gave me. If there is an accident in the house clean it with biological washing powder (for clothes), aparently lukewarm (not hot as it stops the organisms (nearly wrote that wrong) from working) water with biological powder is good as the enzyme things breakdown the odour thus making the scent less potent to the dog and not attracting them back to the area… I cant try it because mine are all big boys now and completely potty trained but maybe worth giving it a go!


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## Pesky Wesky

steve_in_spain said:


> Shes been through a hell of a lot in recent times, so obviously she needs, and deserves the patience that you are clearly giving her. The good thing is that the weather is slowly picking up which means that you can spend a bit more time outdoors with her…. keep an eye on her, reinforce the correct behaviour (ie going to toilet outside) with lots of fuss and be patient… if she has been inside a while take her outside whether she asks or not… wait until she goes and then fuss her… even if that does take time… then immediately shes been bring her in, nice biscuit etc.
> 
> My boys are very good and ask when they need to go but I have to admit that even now I am in the habit of being proactive - if we have all been inside for 3 or 4 hours and they have not been then I will get up and tell them its time for a wee! Generally they all go out, do their business and come back in… but even though they are completely housetrained I always reinforce it with a "good boy" if I am around them when they go.
> 
> I am sure that if you adopt a proactive role, get her outside under supervision as often as you can (and gradually increase the time between toilet breaks), give loads of love when she gets it right, it will all start to fit into place - but be consistent and patient! DONT WAIT for her to ask, if she doesnt know how - take away that potential problem. Oh, and for a while try and use the same door into the garden (the one closest to where you all spend most of your time) then she will get into the habit of going to that door when she wants to go out!
> 
> Also, a tip a vet once gave me. If there is an accident in the house clean it with biological washing powder (for clothes), aparently lukewarm (not hot as it stops the organisms (nearly wrote that wrong) from working) water with biological powder is good as the enzyme things breakdown the odour thus making the scent less potent to the dog and not attracting them back to the area… I cant try it because mine are all big boys now and completely potty trained but maybe worth giving it a go!


OK!
Thanks.
Will let you know how we get on.


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## Solwriter

Pesky Wesky said:


> First, apologies to the person who opened this thread - you can always unsubscribe if you don't find my dog's peeing habits as riveting as others seem to!



Hope all goes well with Karla.
But I'm sure that with patience and understanding she will soon be peeing in the right place again.


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## Pesky Wesky

We have had no "accidents" since and including last Sunday


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## Solwriter

Pesky Wesky said:


> We have had no "accidents" since and including last Sunday


That's good to hear.


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## mrypg9

In most cases, we have no idea what rescued dogs have been through in their past lives. 
We have just rehomed a Shepherd cross who came into the perrera with cuts and what looked like cigarette burns. The adopters told us that when they lit a match to light a candle he ran out of the room....

Kala will settle down as she did before her accident. You just need patience. Just like children in the same position, it takes time to accept that this time it's for good, this is my home, this is my 'mum'.


If it makes you feel better....we get a lot of similar feedback from oeople who have adopted our dogs. It works out well in 99% of cases and the 1% is always a stupid person lacking in understanding...which you most certainly are not.


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## baldilocks

We found that both Rubio, our first rescue, who has been with us two years now and now Scruffy our recent rescue had a few "problems" initially because they just didn't know or hadn't learnt the house rules. Our onlly outside is a small patio which they have used in an emergency but normally they get taken for a walk four times a day. 0745, 1145, 1645, 2145 and they quickly learnt the routine and if we are a little late, they will come and remind us. Some say that it is too often but it does make sure that we get no puddles and they seem content because they like the routine. On their walks which are within the village peeing on house walls ist verboten but on car wheels is permitted and encouraged as long as the vehicle isn't moving. (Rubio tried it on a van that was moving once and seeing him trying to keep up with it while running on three legs...) All caca is picked up and disposed of in a bin and they know to wait while it is picked up.


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## jimenato

baldilocks said:


> We found that both Rubio, our first rescue, who has been with us two years now and now Scruffy our recent rescue had a few "problems" initially because they just didn't know or hadn't learnt the house rules. Our onlly outside is a small patio which they have used in an emergency but normally they get taken for a walk four times a day. 0745, 1145, 1645, 2145 and they quickly learnt the routine and if we are a little late, they will come and remind us. Some say that it is too often but it does make sure that we get no puddles and they seem content because they like the routine. On their walks which are within the village peeing on house walls ist verboten but on car wheels is permitted and encouraged as long as the vehicle isn't moving. (Rubio tried it on a van that was moving once and seeing him trying to keep up with it while running on three legs...) All caca is picked up and disposed of in a bin and they know to wait while it is picked up.


Ha ha!! That made me laugh!! My dog goes to a tree and lifts the wrong leg. 

Dogs and peeing is always good comedy material.


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## donz

another little tip, if you are using any cleaning agents that smell of pine, this could be a contributory factor. For some reason, pine disinfectants (such as floor cleaner) seem to ATTRACT dogs to pee there!


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## mrypg9

We 'crate trained' Our Little Azor and it was extremely effective. At first I thought it was some daft Californian idea but boy was I wrong....
We bought a Varicrate, the largest size for him to grow into. For those of you who don't know, a Varicrate is one of those plastic walled pet carriers with a door opening in front, like a little house. As it was so roomy when he was a pup,we filled the space with a feather pillow, a single duvet and a teddy bear. At night we kept it by our bed, in the day we kept it in the study downstairs.
We put him to sleep in his 'house' every night.
We fetched him from the breeder in Slovakia in early February. There was deep snow everywhere so on top of the Varicrate we kept a Guernsey sweater and a torch. When Azor wanted to pee or crap he would whimper, one of us would pick him up -he was heavy even then! - don the Guernsey over our nightwear, take the torch, go downstairs, put on Wellies and take him to his special play area where we would put him down and shine the torch on his rear end to check when he had 'finished'.
We kept this up for about two or three weeks....after which he was house trained. Of course he had accidents - two that we can remember - but we couldn't believe how easy it all was.
I guess it is based on the old saying that you don't **** on your own doorstep!
He also did not once cry or whimper during the night when he first came home. He was taken from Mum and siblings and placed straight into a rug in Sandra's arms and stayed there snug and warm on the train journey home to Prague. Then after being fed he was put into his little house with his ted and he went to sleep. Sometimes, when he was trained but still small enough to fit into his house, he would trot off into it and go to sleep. He obviously needed 'time on his own'.
I strongly recommend this kind of training. It certainly worked for us.
But compare the life of Our Little Azor or one of your dogs you've had from a pup with that of a grown rescue dog.
It's no wonder that they occasionally exhibit behaviour problems, really.
But tlc, time and patience solve issues in 99% of cases.


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## jules 123

Also ... dogs can become confused when allowed the run of the house, especially in a large house with lots of rooms. In that case, I would say limit the dog's access until it is fully trained.


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## jimenato

Our little newcomer Button makes a few little puddles. I think one of the problems is that as with many Spanish houses the floor material is the same inside as outside the house so it's not obvious to her where she can go. She is learning though. We go outside with her and wait until she goes and then praise her and take her back inside.


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## Solwriter

donz said:


> another little tip, if you are using any cleaning agents that smell of pine, this could be a contributory factor. For some reason, pine disinfectants (such as floor cleaner) seem to ATTRACT dogs to pee there!


We tried everything when one of our UK dogs didn't get the message about going outside.
And the only thing we found to work was fabric spray (Fabrize or similar). We still use it out here when we have newcomers. Ants don't like it either.


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## Solwriter

mrypg9 said:


> We 'crate trained' Our Little Azor and it was extremely effective. At first I thought it was some daft Californian idea but boy was I wrong....
> We bought a Varicrate, the largest size for him to grow into. For those of you who don't know, a Varicrate is one of those plastic walled pet carriers with a door opening in front, like a little house. As it was so roomy when he was a pup,we filled the space with a feather pillow, a single duvet and a teddy bear. At night we kept it by our bed, in the day we kept it in the study downstairs.
> We put him to sleep in his 'house' every night.
> We fetched him from the breeder in Slovakia in early February. There was deep snow everywhere so on top of the Varicrate we kept a Guernsey sweater and a torch. When Azor wanted to pee or crap he would whimper, one of us would pick him up -he was heavy even then! - don the Guernsey over our nightwear, take the torch, go downstairs, put on Wellies and take him to his special play area where we would put him down and shine the torch on his rear end to check when he had 'finished'.
> We kept this up for about two or three weeks....after which he was house trained. Of course he had accidents - two that we can remember - but we couldn't believe how easy it all was.
> I guess it is based on the old saying that you don't **** on your own doorstep!
> He also did not once cry or whimper during the night when he first came home. He was taken from Mum and siblings and placed straight into a rug in Sandra's arms and stayed there snug and warm on the train journey home to Prague. Then after being fed he was put into his little house with his ted and he went to sleep. Sometimes, when he was trained but still small enough to fit into his house, he would trot off into it and go to sleep. He obviously needed 'time on his own'.
> I strongly recommend this kind of training. It certainly worked for us.
> But compare the life of Our Little Azor or one of your dogs you've had from a pup with that of a grown rescue dog.
> It's no wonder that they occasionally exhibit behaviour problems, really.
> But tlc, time and patience solve issues in 99% of cases.


On the recommendation of the rescue society, we crate trained one of the rescue dogs we brought from the UK and it worked very well. The crate is huge, probably the biggest size you can buy - he is a tall dog.

Although, once past the puppy stage, our dog preferred not to use the crate (and sleep on an old settee instead), we brought the crate with us to Spain, and thank goodness we did!
Two of the small puppies we rescued did not get on with one of our larger dogs (she hated them running frantically around her feet. It was probably like some of us are scared of mice!), so we had to find somewhere they could claim as their own and feel safe, so back out came the crate.
It's much too large for them, like their own house, but it's their home. We don't have to keep the door closed as the other dogs know not to enter their territory and the two in the crate come and go as they please, usually using the crate only to sleep (or when one of our larger dogs tells them they are fed up with their hyperactive antics).
The only problem is that we now have a very large crate in our living room... Oh well! 

But we have bought smaller crates for the dogs we rescued here - mainly for things like taking them to the vets when they were very tiny, or so that they could feel snug when they go to sleep, but we have crates of all sizes, some we keep on our shaded patio, as outdoor kennels if they want to use them.

Those we have raised from puppies don't mind being in a crate for a small amount of time, but those who were a year old or more when we took them in hate crates, even the outside ones, so we have never forced them to use them.

So I think that, for using a crate, you need to start when the dog is young, otherwise it will just cause distress for all concerned.


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## mrypg9

Solwriter said:


> On the recommendation of the rescue society, we crate trained one of the rescue dogs we brought from the UK and it worked very well. The crate is huge, probably the biggest size you can buy - he is a tall dog.
> 
> Although, once past the puppy stage, our dog preferred not to use the crate (and sleep on an old settee instead), we brought the crate with us to Spain, and thank goodness we did!
> Two of the small puppies we rescued did not get on with one of our larger dogs (she hated them running frantically around her feet. It was probably like some of us are scared of mice!), so we had to find somewhere they could claim as their own and feel safe, so back out came the crate.
> It's much too large for them, like their own house, but it's their home. We don't have to keep the door closed as the other dogs know not to enter their territory and the two in the crate come and go as they please, usually using the crate only to sleep (or when one of our larger dogs tells them they are fed up with their hyperactive antics).
> The only problem is that we now have a very large crate in our living room... Oh well!
> 
> But we have bought smaller crates for the dogs we rescued here - mainly for things like taking them to the vets when they were very tiny, or so that they could feel snug when they go to sleep, but we have crates of all sizes, some we keep on our shaded patio, as outdoor kennels if they want to use them.
> 
> Those we have raised from puppies don't mind being in a crate for a small amount of time, but those who were a year old or more when we took them in hate crates, even the outside ones, so we have never forced them to use them.
> 
> So I think that, for using a crate, you need to start when the dog is young, otherwise it will just cause distress for all concerned.



Yes, it must start when the dog is a puppy. OLA went in his crate the day we brought him home -he was just eight weeks old.
As I described, you can pad out a large crate with pillows or a duvet. 
OLA gradually grew out of his crate both physically and mentally. He slept on a large dog bed beside our bed until he discovered that it was more comfortable to sleep on our bed which he now does (OH blames me for encouraging this).


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## gwennethk

thankyou so much for all your replies which makes it very interesting. It leaves me very much up in the air as whether to take the risk of pursuing the move. she is a people dog but hasn't been able to socialise with other dogs, mainly because other dog owners see her and immediately cross the road / pick their dog up in their arms/ panic. It's a great shame. We walk her in quiet areas now, always on the lead and as I said she has never attempted to bite. I will still follow the thread for the next few weeks. It was Playa Flamenca area we were looking at if anyone local to that area knows how strict the local council/ vets are. Many thanks once again:clap2:


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## mrypg9

gwennethk said:


> thankyou so much for all your replies which makes it very interesting. It leaves me very much up in the air as whether to take the risk of pursuing the move. she is a people dog but hasn't been able to socialise with other dogs, mainly because other dog owners see her and immediately cross the road / pick their dog up in their arms/ panic. It's a great shame. We walk her in quiet areas now, always on the lead and as I said she has never attempted to bite. I will still follow the thread for the next few weeks. It was Playa Flamenca area we were looking at if anyone local to that area knows how strict the local council/ vets are. Many thanks once again:clap2:




Do not be put off. There is no 'risk'.

We came here from the Czech Republic. There you will rarely see any dog larger than a retriever out walking. German Shepherds, Rottweilers etc. are mainly kept chained. From our window we could see a German Shepherd in a neighbouring house that was chained all day, every day. It was heartbreaking. 
We also got used to seeing people pick up their dogs and go pale with fright when they saw Azor, even when he was on his lead. One day a woman with a small dog shouted at me to 'Go away' as I was merely walking him in some woods
although her dog was off the lead and pestering Azor.
Although my Czech was and remains no way fluent I summoned up all the words I knew to give her a mouthful. 
Because of these widespread attitudes Azor, although trained, wasn't properly socialised until he came to Spain where dog owners are on the whole more sensible and tolerant. As soon as he was able to play with other dogs we discovered that he isn't actually very sociable himself and after a few minutes' interaction, loses interest and wanders off.
I do urge you not to be deterred in coming to Spain. If we can manage with a very large Ridgeback, a breed still rare in Spain, you'll be fine with your GSD.

We had a much-loved GSD, Ferdinand, a gentle giant. He was a rescue dog. We decided to get a different breed as we didn't want to make comparisons. But we still love GSDs. Wonderful pets and companions.


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## gwennethk

mrypg9 said:


> Do not be put off. There is no 'risk'.
> 
> We came here from the Czech Republic. There you will rarely see any dog larger than a retriever out walking. German Shepherds, Rottweilers etc. are mainly kept chained. From our window we could see a German Shepherd in a neighbouring house that was chained all day, every day. It was heartbreaking.
> We also got used to seeing people pick up their dogs and go pale with fright when they saw Azor, even when he was on his lead. One day a woman with a small dog shouted at me to 'Go away' as I was merely walking him in some woods
> although her dog was off the lead and pestering Azor.
> Although my Czech was and remains no way fluent I summoned up all the words I knew to give her a mouthful.
> Because of these widespread attitudes Azor, although trained, wasn't properly socialised until he came to Spain where dog owners are on the whole more sensible and tolerant. As soon as he was able to play with other dogs we discovered that he isn't actually very sociable himself and after a few minutes' interaction, loses interest and wanders off.
> I do urge you not to be deterred in coming to Spain. If we can manage with a very large Ridgeback, a breed still rare in Spain, you'll be fine with your GSD.
> 
> We had a much-loved GSD, Ferdinand, a gentle giant. He was a rescue dog. We decided to get a different breed as we didn't want to make comparisons. But we still love GSDs. Wonderful pets and companions.


thankyou for your encouragement, I must admit, it's making me think it may work out. She really is a wonderful dog. Much appreciated


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## mrypg9

gwennethk said:


> thankyou for your encouragement, I must admit, it's making me think it may work out. She really is a wonderful dog. Much appreciated



So...see you and your GSD in Spain....
It will work out.


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## Cat M

Hi! Just joined the forum as I'm very interested in how ex pats manage in reality with bringing their dogs into Spain to live, specifically those which would be considered "dangerous" by law. A lot of the posts seem quite old now and I'm wondering how it all plays out today, post Brexit and with attitudes towards these dogs, especially Staffies! He's clearly a Staffy but has no papers and isn't KC registered? As a non driver, I'd be looking to live in a town and the one I'm considering, Lubrin, has a town hall, where I could register him etc etc but I'm not sure where that leaves me with travelling about for these physical and psychological tests?! Lubrin does not have a vet, as far as I know. I believe there aren't many taxis or buses and dogs can't go on them either?? Or the costs involved etc. Does a GP do the tests? My boy is already chipped and insured, I know I have to register within a month, buy a licence and show £300,000 public liability, walk on a short non extendable leash and have him muzzled. And that the police come to your house?! Anyway, any advice gratefully received! Cath


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## xicoalc

Cat M said:


> Hi! Just joined the forum as I'm very interested in how ex pats manage in reality with bringing their dogs into Spain to live, specifically those which would be considered "dangerous" by law. A lot of the posts seem quite old now and I'm wondering how it all plays out today, post Brexit and with attitudes towards these dogs, especially Staffies! He's clearly a Staffy but has no papers and isn't KC registered? As a non driver, I'd be looking to live in a town and the one I'm considering, Lubrin, has a town hall, where I could register him etc etc but I'm not sure where that leaves me with travelling about for these physical and psychological tests?! Lubrin does not have a vet, as far as I know. I believe there aren't many taxis or buses and dogs can't go on them either?? Or the costs involved etc. Does a GP do the tests? My boy is already chipped and insured, I know I have to register within a month, buy a licence and show £300,000 public liability, walk on a short non extendable leash and have him muzzled. And that the police come to your house?! Anyway, any advice gratefully received! Cath


I have a PPP license and have had dor many years and updated it to a new ayuntamiento last year when I moved to ill try to explain as best as i can. 

Firstly i cant comment on if there is anything special required to bring the dog in to spain. But i can explain in detail about once you're here. 

Firstly, every comunidad has their own take on the rules but the principles remain the same. 

The dog will need to be chipped and registered in the Spanish microchip system which is handled by autonomous communities. A Spanish vet will take care of that for you. Obviously all vaccination certificates have to be up to date, especially rabies. 

The minimim requirement is a certificate of health of the dog from a Spanish vet. This is an official government document that the vet provides and will charge a standard fee. I think I paid last time about 50 euros which is rediculous for a signature but as the vet said, thats the official rate for the form and the registration of it. The vet didn't charge me for doing it it as I've used him for over a decade. In fact, last time he didn't even see the dog as he knows, well, knew, sadly he passed away recently him all his life. 

In some areas you can get a temperament test done by a vet who is approved to do it (not all are) which gives added benefits like removing the need for a muzzle when walking. Check with your local area. My dog had this and so a muzzle was not required. 

Next is the part about you. 

You'll require a police report to prove you have no convictions. If youre resident and registered in the online systems you can get this instantly online. If not, as was my case the first time, i had to go to the police to obtain this. 

You'll then need a medical report which is a two part exam. First is the physical wellness... Hearing, sight, coordination, health status in general (similar to a driving licence) and the 2nd is a psychological report that you're stable enough to have a "dangerous" dog. This is a series of questions. This is all done at the same time and not expensive but can't be done by your GP, you have to go to a private clinic that offers it (usually the same ones who do drivers licence, scuba diving certs etc). You'll get a certificate signed and stamped with your photo attached.

Next you'll need a specific approved insurance for "dangerous" dogs. Be careful with this. As a foreigner i paid over 200 euros in my first two years before finding a specialist Spanish broker who I've paid about 30 euros to each year since. 

With all this you have to register at the town hall. Some charge a small fee, others no. As part of the process the police may visit your home to check the fence and measures you have in place to keep the dog from escaping etc. 

I have a plot of 6000m and have a 2m fence all round, dangerous dog signs at both entrances to my land and a separate area where i can isolate the dogs if needed. But as ive held a licence for so many years they never checked when i moved. Basically you need a secure fenced area where dog cant escape and ideally a sign. 

Hand it all in, wait a week or so and then collect your license 

Some town halls issue a licence per dog, others in general. When i moved I got a card with my detaila and the dogs as well as a paper document stating im approved under my own licence to own or control any animal classed as potentially dangerous. 

Licenses are usually valid 3 years. But you may be asked to present your insurance receipt and vaccination book each year. As i am very strict to do this right, when they saw ally papers for many years in order they said "no hace falta que vengas" which means "don't worry about coming in every year" 

Hope this helps. Good luck!


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## Cat M

Thank you so much!! Very helpful. With not driving, it's a bit of a nightmare getting to a vet to start the official process off, ie, cert of health etc and then getting to another centre which handles these responsible persons assessments! I wonder if an estate agent in the area could advise?? They must certainly have Brits coming in to live, with large PPPs! Someone must know where I'd have to go to, if I'm aiming to settle in Lubrin village itself? I may phone their town hall, evidently it's a bilingual service. I only speak French and German, which is no use in Lubrin, ha ha. So many people have dogs, love dogs...and this PPP affects so many people ,surely? You'd think there would be a lot more PRECISE information for incomers, ie, where exactly do you have to go! Coming from the UK, I'm all too familiar with vile BSL. Drives me mad, but..............we must comply. Do you think a gestor could take care of some of it? Do they take you to places if you don't drive and interpret, perhaps?? I thank you for your time, it's massively appreciated! Cath xx


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## Lynn R

Like yourself, I am a non driver and could not contemplate living anywhere in Spain which did not have a good and frequent public transport service, it would be just too limiting. I believe dogs are not allowed to travel on buses in Spain (in 15 years of living here I cannot remember ever seeing anyone with a dog either on our local buses or longer distance ones, although I have seen local bus drivers refusing to let passengers with dogs board a couple of times). As far as taxis are concerned, I believe some drivers will carry dogs and some will not, so that could be a problem if there are not many taxis in the town you are interested in. If the town doesn't have a vet either, getting a fairly big dog to a vet without your own transport would be problematic, and you wouldn't be able to take your dog with you if you went out for the day.


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## Cat M

Lynn, where have you settled and are you happy with your local services in walking distance? Many thanks for your reply. Cath xx


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## xicoalc

Cat M said:


> Thank you so much!! Very helpful. With not driving, it's a bit of a nightmare getting to a vet to start the official process off, ie, cert of health etc and then getting to another centre which handles these responsible persons assessments! I wonder if an estate agent in the area could advise?? They must certainly have Brits coming in to live, with large PPPs! Someone must know where I'd have to go to, if I'm aiming to settle in Lubrin village itself? I may phone their town hall, evidently it's a bilingual service. I only speak French and German, which is no use in Lubrin, ha ha. So many people have dogs, love dogs...and this PPP affects so many people ,surely? You'd think there would be a lot more PRECISE information for incomers, ie, where exactly do you have to go! Coming from the UK, I'm all too familiar with vile BSL. Drives me mad, but..............we much comply. Do you think a gestor could take care of some of it? Do they take you to places if you don't drive and interpret, perhaps?? I thank you for your time, it's massively appreciated! Cath xx


Well, there is a huge difference between PPP and BSL. With BSL there is a list of banned dogs but in Spain they use the word "potentially" dangerous and i accept that. My boy was potentially dangerous. He had enormous strength and yes, could have killed. But he would never have done so unless his family were in threat. So Spain are fair and simply have a registration system whereby they are more interested in the owner than the dog.

I don't know your area. Service of collecting you and driving you round i dont think they will offer!

But im sure you'll find a vet that will come to you if you don't drive. My vet of many years is some 30 minutes away now I've moved but is always happy to pop in to the house at any time of the day or night if I want a home visit. Most vets in spain are not the money grabbing type like the UK. In fact my vet has cared dor all of my dogs and cats for years including staying in the clinic all night with them when they have been sick and dying, coming to my house in the middle of the night and often never even charging me more than the cost of treatments or tests. 

The rest of the paperwork can be done in a day. 

So my advice is find a good vet, assume the cost of home visit or get a taxi and then spend just one day sorting it all out

Or, once you have your vet papers and your own medical juat find a Spanish gestor who'll do the work for you. Probably for a fee of 50 or 100 euros 

And if you want an amazing contact for the insurance drop me a PM. They put me with axa or allianz (something like that) and the cost was so good.


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## Cat M

Thank you SO much. Yes, I hate BSL but to be fair, at least Spain actually allows them in but with restrictions. Worth the messing about. Mine is on the actual list, he's a Staffordshire bull terrier? Nice to know the vets tend to be good and caring!!


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## Cat M

He's legal in Britain but is actually a definite on the PPP list in Spain... xx


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## xicoalc

Cat M said:


> Thank you SO much. Yes, I hate BSL but to be fair, at least Spain actually allows them in but with restrictions. Worth the messing about. Mine is on the actual list, he's a Staffordshire bull terrier? Nice to know the vets tend to be good and caring!!


I think staffies are on the list. 

Look, the truth is that in spain 90% of people don't even bother. Many years ago, my first licence was number 3. I lived in an area where i could count at least 10 qualifying dogs in my urbanización alone and the police knew all of the neighbours. 

My vet said that most ppp dogs are not registered but in my opinion its far better to have it right. As the local police told me once, if there's no complaints then there's no consequence but im not risking my dogs life. 

Do it right and if a burglar gets killd by your dog you can relax that you and the dog are safe!


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## Cat M

Totally agree. I have to get it absolutely right as I could never, ever risk him! Thank you!


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## Lynn R

Cat M said:


> Lynn, where have you settled and are you happy with your local services in walking distance? Many thanks for your reply. Cath xx


I live in Velez-Malaga, some 30km East of Malaga and 5km inland. It's a very large town, and as such is a very urban setting so maybe less of the scenic charm you would be hoping for! But as far as practicality for a non-driver is concerned, it's great. We have all the facilities in town anyone could want, lots of shops of every kind, restaurants and bars (but not international ones), two health centres, public sports facilities including indoor swimming pool, tennis and padel courts, public gym and a number of private ones, in normal times lots of cultural activities, the majority of them free of charge or at very low cost. The main regional hospital and a large shopping centre are just down the road between us and the coast, and we have a bus service every 15 minutes on weekdays and every half hour on Saturdays and Sundays which calls at both of those and goes to our nearest coastal resort, Torre del Mar which is just 5km away and has many more shops and international restaurants, and a lovely long beach and promenade (as far as I know it's prohibited to walk dogs on the beach, though). There is a section of the beach designated as a dog beach though, and a dedicated dog park in Vélez-Málaga itself and a couple of "via verde" walking tracks where people can exercise their dogs although they have to be kept on the lead. I know of at least 3 veterinary clinics in our town centre (but I don't have a dog myself so I can't recommend one). The longer distance bus services are not as plentiful as they were before the pandemic (the bus companies having seized on the excuse to reduce frequency of service and axe some unprofitable services altogether) but we still have over a dozen buses each day to Málaga and it's possible to get to other places, Nerja for example, by changing buses in Torre del Mar where you can also connect to long distance services to Almeria in one direction or Algeciras (calliing at Málaga and Marbella) in the other. Both our local buses and the Málaga services run on all public holidays including Xmas Day and New Year's Day, and coming from the UK that was and still is a minor miracle to me!


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## Melosine

I know Lubrin, it is out in the sticks with nearest town, Heurcal -Overa, with all facilities, over 40 minutes away.
Have you actually been there or is the desire via Internet viewing ?
As in lots of small Spanish hamlets it does have a Mayor, so consequently a townhall and last time I visited did see a couple of bar but little else. 
And the fact you are contemplating relocating there with an internationally recognised dangerous dog and no transport I find totally perplexing.


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## Alcalaina

Wherever you settle, you will soon make friends with other dog owners. Dogs and babies are an international passport to starting conversations with total strangers, and the Spanish are known for being open and welcoming. You are sure to find someone willing to drive you to the vet, maybe in exchange for dog-sitting while they are away etc etc. It happens a lot where I live and we are 40 km from the nearest city, though we do have a vet who does house-calls.

My town is also heaving with dogs, some of which are definitely dangerous. It's rare to see one with a muzzle, but things are improving - fifteen years ago it was rare to see one on a lead. Incidentally I have two friends who have been bitten this summer - one by a dachshund and the other by a bodeguero, neither of which are on the list. I'm a cat person myself, much simpler!


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## Melosine

Alcalaina said:


> Wherever you settle, you will soon make friends with other dog owners. Dogs and babies are an international passport to starting conversations with total strangers, and the Spanish are known for being open and welcoming. You are sure to find someone willing to drive you to the vet, maybe in exchange for dog-sitting while they are away etc etc. It happens a lot where I live and we are 40 km from the nearest city, though we do have a vet who does house-calls.
> 
> My town is also heaving with dogs, some of which are definitely dangerous. It's rare to see one with a muzzle, but things are improving - fifteen years ago it was rare to see one on a lead. Incidentally I have two friends who have been bitten this summer - one by a dachshund and the other by a bodeguero, neither of which are on the list. I'm a cat person myself, much simpler!


In big towns dogs are on leads and muzzled because fines are hefty and police obvious. 
However not in a hamlet 99% + Spanish. 
This is in an area where farmers shoot wild boar and birds regularly and people shoot dogs they deem a nuisance. One was shot because complaints were made about its barking! 
Dogs here roam freely so no sitting necessary. 
Plus only town residents use services of vets and majority of those are not Spanish folk. 
Is this really a place you are advising Cat M to live Alcalaina ?


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## mrypg9

Cat M said:


> Hi! Just joined the forum as I'm very interested in how ex pats manage in reality with bringing their dogs into Spain to live, specifically those which would be considered "dangerous" by law. A lot of the posts seem quite old now and I'm wondering how it all plays out today, post Brexit and with attitudes towards these dogs, especially Staffies! He's clearly a Staffy but has no papers and isn't KC registered? As a non driver, I'd be looking to live in a town and the one I'm considering, Lubrin, has a town hall, where I could register him etc etc but I'm not sure where that leaves me with travelling about for these physical and psychological tests?! Lubrin does not have a vet, as far as I know. I believe there aren't many taxis or buses and dogs can't go on them either?? Or the costs involved etc. Does a GP do the tests? My boy is already chipped and insured, I know I have to register within a month, buy a licence and show £300,000 public liability, walk on a short non extendable leash and have him muzzled. And that the police come to your house?! Anyway, any advice gratefully received! Cath


There wasn’t anything in the Withdrawal Agreement about bringing in dogs considered potentially dangerous,at least to my knowledge. Things are as before, at least in this corner of Andalucia.

Sadly our Rhodesian Ridgeback Azor died at the ripe old age of eleven and a half and our other dog, Xena, a rescue Cane Corso, also died in October last. Xena was also considered a PPP, I think she was listed, but as with Azor, our vet refused to classify her as dangerous. She had been used as a puppy machine and was so gentle and mild although she had a scary bark.

Now I’ve got Choco, another rescue dog. That‘s him pictured, handsome boy. He’s a mongrel, weighs over 25kg, scared of his shadow. Our vet laughed when I suggested he might have the characteristics of a PPP and gave him a treat.

My worry would be your means of getting about, with or without your dog. I live in a rural setting a short distance from the town centre. I could walk to Carrefour, it’s about thirty minutes away, but not much fun in hot weather or with heavy shopping. No bus has ever passed down our lane. My car often stands for days unused but I keep it for the convenience of knowing it’s there when needed.
The town you have chosen seems one where a car is essential.
Not having one could be more of any problems you might have with your dog.

I’m presuming you know you can no longer drive with a UK licence in Spain…


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## Cat M

Melosine said:


> I know Lubrin, it is out in the sticks with nearest town, Heurcal -Overa, with all facilities, over 40 minutes away.
> Have you actually been there or is the desire via Internet viewing ?
> As in lots of small Spanish hamlets it does have a Mayor, so consequently a townhall and last time I visited did see a couple of bar but little else.
> And the fact you are contemplating relocating there with an internationally recognised dangerous dog and no transport I find totally perplexing.


Hi! It's a long held dream to relocate and I could never leave my dog behind. He's a softy and I love him. Am more than happy to work with any restrictions required and not everybody drives, so...just doing research ahead of time from those that know more than me xx


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## Cat M

Melosine said:


> In big towns dogs are on leads and muzzled because fines are hefty and police obvious.
> However not in a hamlet 99% + Spanish.
> This is in an area where farmers shoot wild boar and birds regularly and people shoot dogs they deem a nuisance. One was shot because complaints were made about its barking!
> Dogs here roam freely so no sitting necessary.
> Plus only town residents use services of vets and majority of those are not Spanish folk.
> Is this really a place you are advising Cat M to live Alcalaina ?


I hear really good things about Lubrin and the surrounding hamlets and it's been highly recommended for someone who wants a quiet village with friendly people, a few ex pats, many Spanish people. I'm more likely to spend time on my roof terrace than going out a lot to the beach or the bars! The not driving does worry me a little but only for getting to a vet and making sure Xander is registered properly etc xx


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## Cat M

mrypg9 said:


> There wasn’t anything in the Withdrawal Agreement about bringing in dogs considered potentially dangerous,at least to my knowledge. Things are as before, at least in this corner of Andalucia.
> 
> Sadly our Rhodesian Ridgeback Azor died at the ripe old age of eleven and a half and our other dog, Xena, a rescue Cane Corso, also died in October last. Xena was also considered a PPP, I think she was listed, but as with Azor, our vet refused to classify her as dangerous. She had been used as a puppy machine and was so gentle and mild although she had a scary bark.
> 
> Now I’ve got Choco, another rescue dog. That‘s him pictured, handsome boy. He’s a mongrel, weighs over 25kg, scared of his shadow. Our vet laughed when I suggested he might have the characteristics of a PPP and gave him a treat.
> 
> My worry would be your means of getting about, with or without your dog. I live in a rural setting a short distance from the town centre. I could walk to Carrefour, it’s about thirty minutes away, but not much fun in hot weather or with heavy shopping. No bus has ever passed down our lane. My car often stands for days unused but I keep it for the convenience of knowing it’s there when needed.
> The town you have chosen seems one where a car is essential.
> Not having one could be more of any problems you might have with your dog.
> 
> I’m presuming you know you can no longer drive with a UK licence in Spain…


Hi! I'm so sorry to hear about Azor and Xena, I've seen their photos on the threads, just beautiful. Your new boy sounds just lovely too. I've heard that good vets can make house calls in a real emergency and that people are often willing to help out with transport in the early days of getting set up? Registering him properly is my main and most important concern and knowing a good vet etc. I'm quite happy to live in an isolated area and at least I'd be in a village setting, rather than out in the sticks, as such. There's a doctor and a mayor/town hall in Lubrin and some shops/small supermarket. That's enough for me, ha ha. Quiet life in the sun without a million tourists, that will do me! I don't drive at all actually. I may get a moped in the future though!! Do the Spanish have learner permits and what is the procedure with that, I wonder?! Thanks for your advice and information! xx


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## mrypg9

Cat M said:


> Hi! I'm so sorry to hear about Azor and Xena, I've seen their photos on the threads, just beautiful. Your new boy sounds just lovely too. I've heard that good vets can make house calls in a real emergency and that people are often willing to help out with transport in the early days of getting set up? Registering him properly is my main and most important concern and knowing a good vet etc. I'm quite happy to live in an isolated area and at least I'd be in a village setting, rather than out in the sticks, as such. There's a doctor and a mayor/town hall in Lubrin and some shops/small supermarket. That's enough for me, ha ha. Quiet life in the sun without a million tourists, that will do me! I don't drive at all actually. I may get a moped in the future though!! Do the Spanish have learner permits and what is the procedure with that, I wonder?! Thanks for your advice and information! xx


Well, I have a very quiet life. I’m surrounded by livestock…sheep, goats, horses plus my dog and my neighbour’s dog who spends most of her time with us as she is in love with Choco!!
My neighbour and I live on a large piece of land where we grow every kind of fruit and vegetable,.Their big house is about 100 metres or less from my smaller house, separated by half a hedge and a swimming pool. Our nearest neighbours are a ten minute walk away.

But…..even though in an emergency my neighbours who are family friends really now after three years could take me to my consultorio or hospital or anywhere, it’s still convenient to have my own transport. Yes, most people are friendly and will help you when needed but you can’t rely on that happening.

Since Brexit it’s not so simple moving to Spain. You’ll need a NL Visa and even for a scooter licence you’ll need to pass a Spanish test. How good is your Spanish? Not that many Spaniards speak English, not round my neck of the woods.

Of course you may know all this already….


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## Cat M

mrypg9 said:


> Well, I have a very quiet life. I’m surrounded by livestock…sheep, goats, horses plus my dog and my neighbour’s dog who spends most of her time with us as she is in love with Choco!!
> My neighbour and I live on a large piece of land where we grow every kind of fruit and vegetable,.Their big house is about 100 metres or less from my smaller house, separated by half a hedge and a swimming pool. Our nearest neighbours are a ten minute walk away.
> 
> But…..even though in an emergency my neighbours who are family friends really now after three years could take me to my consultorio or hospital or anywhere, it’s still convenient to have my own transport. Yes, most people are friendly and will help you when needed but you can’t rely on that happening.
> 
> Since Brexit it’s not so simple moving to Spain. You’ll need a NL Visa and even for a scooter licence you’ll need to pass a Spanish test. How good is your Spanish? Not that many Spaniards speak English, not round my neck of the woods.
> 
> Of course you may know all this already….


Nope, have no clue about the driving situation there really, so grateful for any advice!! I only have a provisional UK licence and am planning on taking the compulsory CBT, so that I can ride a small bike or moped up to 125cc as a learner? Don't know is there is a Spanish equivalent to this?? Your rural location sounds like heaven to me, but, as you say, I'd need to be in a less isolated spot with the car issues. I also do not speak ANY Spanish! Just French and German xx


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## Melosine

Cat M said:


> I hear really good things about Lubrin and the surrounding hamlets and it's been highly recommended for someone who wants a quiet village with friendly people, a few ex pats, many Spanish people. I'm more likely to spend time on my roof terrace than going out a lot to the beach or the bars! The not driving does worry me a little but only for getting to a vet and making sure Xander is registered properly etc xx


So it's only what you have heard and never been there, hmm.
I live in a small village and although we have all facilities it is insular and can be incredibly boring especially if. sitting on a roof terrace in all the glare of the sun is all you require, then believe you are going to be in for a shock
If as you say your dog is the priority then before you commit should visit this small village for life is hard for dogs in this part of Spain. Shooting apart there is the processional caterpillars, leishmania and native prickly plants 
Don't even think about the traps or poison the farmers set down. 
Like you our Wiemarana was our priority so we made sure not to live in such an area where our beloved pet might suffer from unexpected problems and decided almost an hour by car was too far for veterinary services when in a medical emergency.
I can only tell what I know but as a pet lover, even with transport, it was a no go scenario.


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## mrypg9

Cat M said:


> Nope, have no clue about the driving situation there really, so grateful for any advice!! I only have a provisional UK licence and am planning on taking the compulsory CBT, so that I can ride a small bike or moped up to 125cc as a learner? Don't know is there is a Spanish equivalent to this?? Your rural location sounds like heaven to me, but, as you say, I'd need to be in a less isolated spot with the car issues. I also do not speak ANY Spanish! Just French and German xx


Do you know about the post- Brexit rules for moving to Spain? If you are not already registered as a resident you will have to apply for a Visa and you need to prove an income level of at least £25k a year. I think that’s right but people like Xabia have all the correct information. There are new rules about bringing pets.

You would most certainly have to take a test, in Spanish. It’s unlikely your vet, doctor, local shop assistants will speak English. Not an insurmountable problem but it could make life a bit difficult to begin with. I live in more of a semi rural area, really, in that I’m within walking distance of shops and our local vet. It’s just a rather long walk and suicide to attempt in temperatures of 40C plus which is what we’ve had lately.

It doesn’t take long for people with or without dogs to get settled in but rules have changed since Brexit and you really need to know them.


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## Cat M

Melosine said:


> So it's only what you have heard and never been there, hmm.
> I live in a small village and although we have all facilities it is insular and can be incredibly boring especially if. sitting on a roof terrace in all the glare of the sun is all you require, then believe you are going to be in for a shock
> If as you say your dog is the priority then before you commit should visit this small village for life is hard for dogs in this part of Spain. Shooting apart there is the processional caterpillars, leishmania and native prickly plants
> Don't even think about the traps or poison the farmers set down.
> Like you our Wiemarana was our priority so we made sure not to live in such an area where our beloved pet might suffer from unexpected problems and decided almost an hour by car was too far for veterinary services when in a medical emergency.
> I can only tell what I know but as a pet lover, even with transport, it was a no go scenario.


All very good food for thought. I'm not in a position to move away as yet and as I'm still caring for my terminally ill mother, I'm not in a position for holidays to investigate locales yet either. And I'm sure Covid will certainly hamper things when I could do!! The thing is, I'm good with boring! I probably AM boring, ha ha. I've had a hell of a stressful full on life and reading for hours with a spot of sunbathing and siestas really is enough for me. I write, I paint, I'm quite a solitary person. I actually prefer the company of my dog to many people (!!) and whilst I'd like to get to know local people and mingle a little, I'm not terribly social. I'm the sort of person that can live halfway up a hill quite happily, most of my family actually have, so the idea of quiet villages doesn't bother me really. But I am currently looking at other villages in the same region with better access to transport and vets etc, so I am grateful for your thoughts xx


----------



## Alcalaina

Melosine said:


> In big towns dogs are on leads and muzzled because fines are hefty and police obvious.
> However not in a hamlet 99% + Spanish.
> This is in an area where farmers shoot wild boar and birds regularly and people shoot dogs they deem a nuisance. One was shot because complaints were made about its barking!
> Dogs here roam freely so no sitting necessary.
> Plus only town residents use services of vets and majority of those are not Spanish folk.
> Is this really a place you are advising Cat M to live Alcalaina ?


I'm not advising her to live anywhere, she can make up her own mind - just saying that if you really like and feel at home somewhere, there is always a way to get around. But if anyone is upset by killing wild animals and the way dogs are treated (I'm talking about hunting dogs or guard-dogs rather than companion animals) they should think twice before moving to Spain.


----------



## mrypg9

Melosine said:


> So it's only what you have heard and never been there, hmm.
> I live in a small village and although we have all facilities it is insular and can be incredibly boring especially if. sitting on a roof terrace in all the glare of the sun is all you require, then believe you are going to be in for a shock
> If as you say your dog is the priority then before you commit should visit this small village for life is hard for dogs in this part of Spain. Shooting apart there is the processional caterpillars, leishmania and native prickly plants
> Don't even think about the traps or poison the farmers set down.
> Like you our Wiemarana was our priority so we made sure not to live in such an area where our beloved pet might suffer from unexpected problems and decided almost an hour by car was too far for veterinary services when in a medical emergency.
> I can only tell what I know but as a pet lover, even with transport, it was a no go scenario.


I forgot about the caterpillars😩. Leish too is a danger but it’s treatable if not curable. We have a lot of dogs with Leish at the kennels but they get medication to control it.

You are so right about insularity and boredom. Some people have an idyllic notion of dreamy afternoons beneath the gently swaying palms and the scent of orange blossom…

During last year’s hard lockdown I was so lucky. Because our two houses are both behind one big gate we pass as one household. From March to mid May at least we had each other to talk to and share meals with and I could walk my dog more than the 50m stipulated as we live on a private lane which ends at the wall of the field.
I have friends living alone in small pisos during that time who found the confinement very difficult.

I know it’s selfish but lockdown actually didn’t affect me at all. It benefited me in that I spoke only Spanish during those weeks apart from calling my son in the UK.

It’s quite possible we could see further restrictions later this autumn post tourism.

And yes, if I couldn’t drive into town occasionally I’d be bored. True, I spend a lot of time reading, watching some tv as well as the usual household chores. I’m happy with that.
But at times a trip to the centre to,look at the shops, meet a friend for lunch or dinner or just walk by the sea and people watch with a copa or cava lifts the spirits and makes the everyday more enjoyable.


----------



## Cat M

Alcalaina said:


> I'm not advising her to live anywhere, she can make up her own mind - just saying that if you really like and feel at home somewhere, there is always a way to get around. But if anyone is upset by killing wild animals and the way dogs are treated (I'm talking about hunting or guard-dogs rather than companion animals) they should think twice before moving to Spain.


I have indeed had some concerns. All my dogs have been rescues and that matters greatly to me. I know I will probably have some very upset moments. A friend of mine has rescued a galgo, one of a few who survived in that particular situation. THAT whole situation had me furious and desolate. Totally agree xx


----------



## Cat M

Melosine said:


> So it's only what you have heard and never been there, hmm.
> I live in a small village and although we have all facilities it is insular and can be incredibly boring especially if. sitting on a roof terrace in all the glare of the sun is all you require, then believe you are going to be in for a shock
> If as you say your dog is the priority then before you commit should visit this small village for life is hard for dogs in this part of Spain. Shooting apart there is the processional caterpillars, leishmania and native prickly plants
> Don't even think about the traps or poison the farmers set down.
> Like you our Wiemarana was our priority so we made sure not to live in such an area where our beloved pet might suffer from unexpected problems and decided almost an hour by car was too far for veterinary services when in a medical emergency.
> I can only tell what I know but as a pet lover, even with transport, it was a no go scenario.


Where did you settle, by the way? Always good to know a recommended village! xx


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## Cat M

mrypg9 said:


> Do you know about the post- Brexit rules for moving to Spain? If you are not already registered as a resident you will have to apply for a Visa and you need to prove an income level of at least £25k a year. I think that’s right but people like Xabia have all the correct information. There are new rules about bringing pets.
> 
> You would most certainly have to take a test, in Spanish. It’s unlikely your vet, doctor, local shop assistants will speak English. Not an insurmountable problem but it could make life a bit difficult to begin with. I live in more of a semi rural area, really, in that I’m within walking distance of shops and our local vet. It’s just a rather long walk and suicide to attempt in temperatures of 40C plus which is what we’ve had lately.
> 
> It doesn’t take long for people with or without dogs to get settled in but rules have changed since Brexit and you really need to know them.


Yes, I've researched the rules for bringing dogs in and the requirements etc from this end and what to do when in Spain. Although I'm self employed here in the UK, I doubt my line of work would be profitable enough in Spain and the social security financial obligations to set up would be prohibitive for what is always an uncertain income with what I do. A shame but...I'll miss doing it! So it would have to be a non lucrative visa and apply for temporary residency whilst waiting for five years to pass? I know about having to prove the private no co-payments health insurance for the first year before being able to go onto the basic Spanish health system and needing some top up anyway, especially for teeth! I'd be selling my house with good equity, buying a village house outright and living off balance of house sale/savings whilst waiting for UK state pension to kick in as well, sadly a few years off!


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## mrypg9

Cat M said:


> All very good food for thought. I'm not in a position to move away as yet and as I'm still caring for my terminally ill mother, I'm not in a position for holidays to investigate locales yet either. And I'm sure Covid will certainly hamper things when I could do!! The thing is, I'm good with boring! I probably AM boring, ha ha. I've had a hell of a stressful full on life and reading for hours with a spot of sunbathing and siestas really is enough for me. I write, I paint, I'm quite a solitary person. I actually prefer the company of my dog to many people (!!) and whilst I'd like to get to know local people and mingle a little, I'm not terribly social. I'm the sort of person that can live halfway up a hill quite happily, most of my family actually have, so the idea of quiet villages doesn't bother me really. But I am currently looking at other villages in the same region with better access to transport and vets etc, so I am grateful for your thoughts xx


You have plenty of time to find out if you will be able to satisfy the requirements of the Non Lucrative Visa you now need to be able to live in Spain. Unlike pre- Brexit you can’t just turn up to stay.

You haven’t mentioned work so I’m assuming you won’t be looking for a job which is just as well as it‘s difficult for non- EU citizens to get work now and there’s very few jobs about anyway.

Also take time to look at other regions of Spain. Moving to a place you’ve never visited and know only from hearsay is a big leap in the dark. Spain is a big country with a rich variety of scenery and customs.
Make a start on learning Spanish too.


----------



## Alcalaina

Cat M said:


> I have indeed had some concerns. All my dogs have been rescues and that matters greatly to me. I know I will probably have some very upset moments. A friend of mine has rescued a galgo, one of a few who survived in that particular situation. THAT whole situation had me furious and desolate. Totally agree xx


Somebody left a box of kittens on my doorstep once, I guess they knew I loved cats and imagined I would look after them. Before I knew they were there, most of them had crawled onto the road and been run over. I already had two elderly English cats and couldn't have any more, so I took the remaining two to join a colony of feral cats the other side of town. At least one was still alive a year later, but feral cats don't live long.

After 15 years I still have nightmares every time I hear a kitten mewing outside. It's very stressful to deal with, but you have to stay objective and bear in mind that things are slowly improving, as the younger generation becomes more aware of animal welfare issues. And of course you can always do what Mrypg9 did and volunteer in a rescue centre - every little helps!


----------



## Cat M

mrypg9 said:


> I forgot about the caterpillars😩. Leish too is a danger but it’s treatable if not curable. We have a lot of dogs with Leish at the kennels but they get medication to control it.
> 
> You are so right about insularity and boredom. Some people have an idyllic notion of dreamy afternoons beneath the gently swaying palms and the scent of orange blossom…
> 
> During last year’s hard lockdown I was so lucky. Because our two houses are both behind one big gate we pass as one household. From March to mid May at least we had each other to talk to and share meals with and I could walk my dog more than the 50m stipulated as we live on a private lane which ends at the wall of the field.
> I have friends living alone in small pisos during that time who found the confinement very difficult.
> 
> I know it’s selfish but lockdown actually didn’t affect me at all. It benefited me in that I spoke only Spanish during those weeks apart from calling my son in the UK.
> 
> It’s quite possible we could see further restrictions later this autumn post tourism.
> 
> And yes, if I couldn’t drive into town occasionally I’d be bored. True, I spend a lot of time reading, watching some tv as well as the usual household chores. I’m happy with that.
> But at times a trip to the centre to,look at the shops, meet a friend for lunch or dinner or just walk by the sea and people watch with a copa or cava lifts the spirits and makes the everyday more enjoyable.


What a coincidence, lockdown hasn't bothered me much at all either! We've been shielding constantly because of my mum and I still am, so..........We're probably quite similar people! Yes, the odd walk, the odd trip to the local shops, all I need now and again too. As long as I have food, wine, books and my dog...! And the Scabior collar, I've heard about these sandflies! xx


----------



## Cat M

mrypg9 said:


> You have plenty of time to find out if you will be able to satisfy the requirements of the Non Lucrative Visa you now need to be able to live in Spain. Unlike pre- Brexit you can’t just turn up to stay.
> 
> You haven’t mentioned work so I’m assuming you won’t be looking for a job which is just as well as it‘s difficult for non- EU citizens to get work now and there’s very few jobs about anyway.
> 
> Also take time to look at other regions of Spain. Moving to a place you’ve never visited and know only from hearsay is a big leap in the dark. Spain is a big country with a rich variety of scenery and customs.
> Make a start on learning Spanish too.


Yep, I'm battling Spanish online! I just like the sound of Almeria and the inland villages xx


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## Cat M

Alcalaina said:


> Somebody left a box of kittens on my doorstep once, I guess they knew I loved cats and imagined I would look after them. Before I knew they were there, most of them had crawled onto the road and been run over. I already had two elderly English cats and couldn't have any more, so I took the remaining two to join a colony of feral cats the other side of town. At least one was still alive a year later, but feral cats don't live long.
> 
> After 15 years I still have nightmares every time I hear a kitten mewing outside. It's very stressful to deal with, but you have to stay objective and bear in mind that things are slowly improving, as the younger generation becomes more aware of animal welfare issues. And of course you can always do what Mrypg9 did and volunteer in a rescue centre - every little helps!


Volunteering does appeal to me, yes. Those poor kittens. I'd have nightmares too. I've been feeding a feral cat here for years and he's recently disappeared. He must have been a very good age but it was very sad to come to terms with the fact that he's probably died. Often think of him xx


----------



## mrypg9

Cat M said:


> I have indeed had some concerns. All my dogs have been rescues and that matters greatly to me. I know I will probably have some very upset moments. A friend of mine has rescued a galgo, one of a few who survived in that particular situation. THAT whole situation had me furious and desolate. Totally agree xx


Until last summer I was for ten years President of a dog rescue and rehoming shelter here. Yes, we had some horrible experiences but many many more happy ones. Before COVID we were re homing around forty dogs a month. We pride ourselves on being The Ritz of dog shelters. Our dogs have on site vet care and have long open runs as well as insulated igloo kennels under cover and most get walked every day by our volunteers. We have three employed staff and are a registered charity run by an elected Board.
adana.es

These and other charities are always looking for volunteers. A good way to make friends while being useful.


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## Cat M

mrypg9 said:


> Until last summer I was for ten years President of a dog rescue and rehoming shelter here. Yes, we had some horrible experiences but many many more happy ones. Before COVID we were re homing around forty dogs a month. We pride ourselves on being The Ritz of dog shelters. Our dogs have on site vet care have lng open runs as well as insulated igloo kennels under cover and most get walked every day by our volunteers. We have three employed staff and are a registered charity run by an elected Board.
> adana.es
> 
> These and other charities are always looking for volunteers. A good way to make friends while being useful.


That's wonderful to hear! Where did you settle and where is the shelter? xx


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## Cat M

Cat M said:


> That's wonderful to hear! Where did you settle and where is the shelter? xx


Just googled Adana, Estepona? xx


----------



## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> Somebody left a box of kittens on my doorstep once, I guess they knew I loved cats and imagined I would look after them. Before I knew they were there, most of them had crawled onto the road and been run over. I already had two elderly English cats and couldn't have any more, so I took the remaining two to join a colony of feral cats the other side of town. At least one was still alive a year later, but feral cats don't live long.
> 
> After 15 years I still have nightmares every time I hear a kitten mewing outside. It's very stressful to deal with, but you have to stay objective and bear in mind that things are slowly improving, as the younger generation becomes more aware of animal welfare issues. And of course you can always do what Mrypg9 did and volunteer in a rescue centre - every little helps!


Two years ago we had a mastín brought in in a very bad way. She had been hit by a car and left to die. An English family on holiday brought her to ADANA. 
Her left hind leg and hip were totally smashed. She needed an operation to have a steel plate inserted. It cost over €2000 for all the treatment but we covered the costs. We never refuse surgery for dogs in need.
We took turns to foster her until she was fully recovered. I took my turn…it was a nightmare!! She was supposed to be resting, not running around but she and Choco were chasing each other all over the place.
When she was fully recovered we put her up for adoption. The dog left for dead, nobody’s dog, just a stray, was quickly adopted and is now healthy happy and much loved by her new family in Aberdeen.


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## mrypg9

Cat M said:


> Just googled Adana, Estepona? xx



Not in Estepona town. Beautiful location in the foothills of the Sierra Bermeja, a twenty minute drive from where I live.


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## Cat M

mrypg9 said:


> Two years ago we had a mastín brought in in a very bad way. She had been hit by a car and left to die. An English family on holiday brought her to ADANA.
> Her left hind leg and hip were totally smashed. She needed an operation to have a steel plate inserted. It cost over €2000 for all the treatment but we covered the costs. We never refuse surgery for dogs in need.
> We took turns to foster her until she was fully recovered. I took my turn…it was a nightmare!! She was supposed to be resting, not running around but she and Choco were chasing each other all over the place.
> When she was fully recovered we put her up for adoption. The dog left for dead, nobody’s dog, just a stray, was quickly adopted and is now healthy happy and much loved by her new family in Aberdeen.


Absolutely marvellous result!! Did you ever get the local hospitals to donate sutures and orthopaedic implants, bandages etc? I used to work in a hospital many years ago and our local vets used to be very happy to take our expired or opened but not used materials. I was nearly disciplined once for allowing a local vet to "borrow" a 10 hole DCP plate....for a horse with a fractured canon bone! Actually, there's a thought! A horse for local transport? Saddlebags?? Let's go back to basics! xx


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## mrypg9

Cat M said:


> Absolutely marvellous result!! Did you ever get the local hospitals to donate sutures and orthopaedic implants, bandages etc? I used to work in a hospital many years ago and our local vets used to be very happy to take our expired or opened but not used materials. I was nearly disciplined once for allowing a local vet to "borrow" a 10 hole DCP plate....for a horse with a fractured canon bone! Actually, there's a thought! A horse for local transport? Saddlebags?? Let's go back to basics! xx



We are lucky in that we can fund vets fees however high thanks to our income from adoptions, our second hand shop, our fundraising and generous donors. Our on-site vet bills us at a very reduced rate and the vet we use for complicated operations bills us at a discount. We’ve sent dogs as far as Fuengirola for treatment we can’t get locally.

No thanks but going back to basics doesn’t appeal.!!! When I was very much younger I spent several weeks in a peasant dwelling up a mountain in the country south of Krakow with a Polish friend whose mother who had been deported to Germany as forced labour in 1940 and never returned had asked her to find traces of any surviving family. There was no electricity, no WC or bathroom, no running water. It was August, very hot, but a fire had to burn all day for cooking.
Everything we ate and drank was home grown and home made….bread, cheese, vodka, meat from slaughtered animals….the nearest shop was at least an hours walk away down a steep rough path and sold only basic stuff.

I grew up in the country but that experience was something else. Whenever I hear or read people describing the joys of the simple life I think of those weeks….not enjoyable.😂

PS I slept on a straw mattress, not too bad. In winter everyone slept on the bench surrounding the huge tile stove. Including the animals, goats and a cow. All indoors.
This was 1971. Probably all electric, WiFi and mod cons now….😏


----------



## Cat M

mrypg9 said:


> We are lucky in that we can fund vets fees however high thanks to our income from adoptions, our second hand shop, our fundraising and generous donors. Our on-site vet bills us at a very reduced rate and the vet we use for complicated operations bills us at a discount. We’ve sent dogs as far as Fuengirola for treatment we can’t get locally.
> 
> No thanks but going back to basics doesn’t appeal.!!! When I was very much younger I spent several weeks in a peasant dwelling up a mountain in the country south of Krakow with a Polish friend whose mother who had been deported to Germany as forced labour in 1940 and never returned had asked her to find traces of any surviving family. There was no electricity, no WC or bathroom, no running water. It was August, very hot, but a fire had to burn all day for cooking.
> Everything we ate and drank was home grown and home made….bread, cheese, vodka, meat from slaughtered animals….the nearest shop was at least an hours walk away down a steep rough path and sold only basic stuff.
> 
> I grew up in the country but that experience was something else. Whenever I hear or read people describing the joys of the simple life I think of those weeks….not enjoyable.😂
> 
> PS I slept on a straw mattress, not too bad. In winter everyone slept on the bench surrounding the huge tile stove. Including the animals, goats and a cow. All indoors.
> This was 1971. Probably all electric, WiFi and mod cons now….😏


An incredible experience to reflect upon! For sure!! But, yes, much as I can manage with candles or paraffin lamps, a wood fire and batteries on the old Roberts radio, I do like hot water and a hairdryer!! More glamping than camping! Although the idea of travelling by horse does appeal.....!! Do any of the older rural villagers still use horse transport for getting about? I love horses! A friend of mine moved to semi rural Wales and uses her Welsh cob and newly acquired trap for going to the local town for shopping!


----------



## Cat M

mrypg9 said:


> We are lucky in that we can fund vets fees however high thanks to our income from adoptions, our second hand shop, our fundraising and generous donors. Our on-site vet bills us at a very reduced rate and the vet we use for complicated operations bills us at a discount. We’ve sent dogs as far as Fuengirola for treatment we can’t get locally.
> 
> No thanks but going back to basics doesn’t appeal.!!! When I was very much younger I spent several weeks in a peasant dwelling up a mountain in the country south of Krakow with a Polish friend whose mother who had been deported to Germany as forced labour in 1940 and never returned had asked her to find traces of any surviving family. There was no electricity, no WC or bathroom, no running water. It was August, very hot, but a fire had to burn all day for cooking.
> Everything we ate and drank was home grown and home made….bread, cheese, vodka, meat from slaughtered animals….the nearest shop was at least an hours walk away down a steep rough path and sold only basic stuff.
> 
> I grew up in the country but that experience was something else. Whenever I hear or read people describing the joys of the simple life I think of those weeks….not enjoyable.😂
> 
> PS I slept on a straw mattress, not too bad. In winter everyone slept on the bench surrounding the huge tile stove. Including the animals, goats and a cow. All indoors.
> This was 1971. Probably all electric, WiFi and mod cons now….😏


I'd love something semi rural but it would have to be somewhere where I could walk to (or ride!!) a village with basic shops, bank, GP.... I actually have an allotment with a huge polytunnel over here and grow a lot of my own fruit veg and flowers but.......... I bet it's a whole new ball game growing your own food in a very hot country! xx


----------



## Cat M

mrypg9 said:


> We are lucky in that we can fund vets fees however high thanks to our income from adoptions, our second hand shop, our fundraising and generous donors. Our on-site vet bills us at a very reduced rate and the vet we use for complicated operations bills us at a discount. We’ve sent dogs as far as Fuengirola for treatment we can’t get locally.
> 
> No thanks but going back to basics doesn’t appeal.!!! When I was very much younger I spent several weeks in a peasant dwelling up a mountain in the country south of Krakow with a Polish friend whose mother who had been deported to Germany as forced labour in 1940 and never returned had asked her to find traces of any surviving family. There was no electricity, no WC or bathroom, no running water. It was August, very hot, but a fire had to burn all day for cooking.
> Everything we ate and drank was home grown and home made….bread, cheese, vodka, meat from slaughtered animals….the nearest shop was at least an hours walk away down a steep rough path and sold only basic stuff.
> 
> I grew up in the country but that experience was something else. Whenever I hear or read people describing the joys of the simple life I think of those weeks….not enjoyable.😂
> 
> PS I slept on a straw mattress, not too bad. In winter everyone slept on the bench surrounding the huge tile stove. Including the animals, goats and a cow. All indoors.
> This was 1971. Probably all electric, WiFi and mod cons now….😏


Don't tell me you have a second hand shop that sells all that unwanted gorgeous vintage Spanish furniture that I love so much?! xx


----------



## Lynn R

Cat M said:


> An incredible experience to reflect upon! For sure!! But, yes, much as I can manage with candles or paraffin lamps, a wood fire and batteries on the old Roberts radio, I do like hot water and a hairdryer!! More glamping than camping! Although the idea of travelling by horse does appeal.....!! Do any of the older rural villagers still use horse transport for getting about? I love horses! A friend of mine moved to semi rural Wales and uses her Welsh cob and newly acquired trap for going to the local town for shopping!


Not for transport, but even in my very large town we occasionally see a horse or two tied up outside a bar. I used to live up in the old town area here, and once saw a donkey being used to transport building rubble, in panniers, and in Frigiliana (a village not far from Nerja, very popular with foreign residents and tourists) a few years ago we saw a mule loaded with building rubble actually climb into a skip for the panniers to be unloaded.


----------



## Alcalaina

Cat M said:


> An incredible experience to reflect upon! For sure!! But, yes, much as I can manage with candles or paraffin lamps, a wood fire and batteries on the old Roberts radio, I do like hot water and a hairdryer!! More glamping than camping! Although the idea of travelling by horse does appeal.....!! Do any of the older rural villagers still use horse transport for getting about? I love horses! A friend of mine moved to semi rural Wales and uses her Welsh cob and newly acquired trap for going to the local town for shopping!


Horses are for the well-to-do farmers and landowners. The villagers use donkeys or mules. Mules are still used where I live for transporting cork and firewood, but not for personal transport (though I did once see a man loading groceries into the panniers on his mule).


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## Alcalaina

Lynn R said:


> Not for transport, but even in my very large town we occasionally see a horse or two tied up outside a bar. I used to live up in the old town area here, and once saw a donkey being used to transport building rubble, in panniers, and in Frigiliana (a village not far from Nerja, very popular with foreign residents and tourists) a few years ago we saw a mule loaded with building rubble actually climb into a skip for the panniers to be unloaded.


I once saw on a TV show someone delivering organic veg boxes by mule in Frigiliana. I wonder if they are still going?


----------



## Cat M

Lynn R said:


> Not for transport, but even in my very large town we occasionally see a horse or two tied up outside a bar. I used to live up in the old town area here, and once saw a donkey being used to transport building rubble, in panniers, and in Frigiliana (a village not far from Nerja, very popular with foreign residents and tourists) a few years ago we saw a mule loaded with building rubble actually climb into a skip for the panniers to be unloaded.


Wow! Poor mule though! But, it's a cultural necessity in many places, I guess. Hark at me, I'd ride a horse along the lanes into the pueblo with panniers on to get food and wine! My late father worked the land for many years with heavy horses, so...


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## Cat M

Forget driving then! I'll get a rescue horse (always wanted to do that anyway!) Why not, that'll do me xx


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## Lynn R

Mules are regarded as working animals, there's no sentimentality about it. The horses around are mostly pura raza española breed, used for "doma" (similar to dressage, for public displays) and much too expensive to be used for carting things about. The training methods don't bear too close scrutiny either.


----------



## Cat M

Lynn R said:


> Mules are regarded as working animals, there's no sentimentality about it. The horses around are mostly pura raza Andaluza breed, used for "doma" (similar to dressage, for public displays) and much too expensive to be used for carting things about. The training methods don't bear too close scrutiny either.


No, I can imagine. Many showjumpers over here aren't renowned for their kindness either! Grrr!


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## mrypg9

My next door neighbour doesn’t live in the shack on his land any more but he keeps a large white horse that roams free. Fuli lives in comfort in Estepona now and drives here every day with his dogs and spends hours caring for the horse and doing odd jobs around the land. The horse sticks it’s head over our fence now and then but I’m not sure how to talk to horses.
Lots of horse riding round here, there’s very little traffic on these country back lanes. There’s several horses in the big field at the lower part of our garden. Have seen a couple of donkeys but no mules.
Most of the land here is used for grazing sheep and goats or just left empty.


----------



## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> I once saw on a TV show someone delivering organic veg boxes by mule in Frigiliana. I wonder if they are still going?


People probably buy organic from the supermarket where you have more choice of organic fruit and veg.
We are three people sharing the very abundant produce of our gardens and now is the season for figs, marrows, calabacines, berenjenas…you name it. Far too much for us. Tbh, some of the produce isn’t that great. The bananas are never really yellow, the carrots are stunted so I buy from Carrefour.
Not all home grown organic stuff is that great.
What I don’t need or like I give to friends or to the ADANA shop. Currently we have a surfeit of figs. Soon it will be avocados..
Its too much work for Caros, Nela and myself so we have a Moroccan man, Labid who comes to help three times a week. He really does have the legendary green fingers.
irrigating is quite a chore, no pipes or anything so sophisticatEd, it’s hand and hosepipe.
Luckily we have a well.
We’re now 100% solar now and we’re not on mains sewerage, septic tank so I suppose we’re self- sufficient in a comfortable sort of way…


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## Melosine

Cat M said:


> No, I can imagine. Many showjumpers over here aren't renowned for their kindness either! Grrr!


Look up Yeguada La Peňa de Bejar.
This is my area of Spain . Our Easter parade is famous world wide. Not only many horses in my village but with traps as well. Also the odd donkey. However the roads are now getting too busy for them to travel on anything other than back roads.
Every year at local feria there is a special equestrian display.
Believe most of us who live in the country do so because we like the quieter life. And it certainly is that.
2 acres to indulge our love of gardening. And for dogs to run free and safe in.
The ones who enjoy this enviroment the most are animal lovers. Dogs in my case. Have rescued many from pup's dumped in front garden to older unwanted variety. 
From 5 at our maximum down now to one. 
Unfortunately not all those with leishmania can be saved. Expensive protective collars and precautions couldnt save our baby because the sandfly affected the bones of our 12 year old . No signs until lethargy set in and despite over €1000 on treatment through floods of tears we had to bid him adios.
That is the reality of living in the countryside . So animal lovers beware.
Seemingly idyllic villages far from the maddening crowd may turn out to be your worst nightmare when in need of urgent attention . Be it for you or your pet.
With 40c temp now raging we have the aircon on for our one remaining pup who, although short haired, who is far from comfortable. 
Know many who just have ceiling fans. How they cope I know not.


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## Cat M

mrypg9 said:


> People probably buy organic from the supermarket where you have more choice of organic fruit and veg.
> We are three people sharing the very abundant produce of our gardens and now is the season for figs, marrows, calabacines, berenjenas…you name it. Far too much for us. Tbh, some of the produce isn’t that great. The bananas are never really yellow, the carrots are stunted so I buy from Carrefour.
> Not all home grown organic stuff is that great.
> What I don’t need or like I give to friends or to the ADANA shop. Currently we have a surfeit of figs. Soon it will be avocados..
> Its too much work for Caros, Nela and myself so we have a Moroccan man, Labid who comes to help three times a week. He really does have the legendary green fingers.
> irrigating is quite a chore, no pipes or anything so sophisticatEd, it’s hand and hosepipe.
> Luckily we have a well.
> We’re now 100% solar now and we’re not on mains sewerage, septic tank so I suppose we’re self- sufficient in a comfortable sort of way…


I'd be happy with solar and septic tank too. Just the initial cost of setting it up, if not already in situ, with the tank being within its age allowance!...although I could have a compost loo! I quite like them actually! And I'd like a well. I'm beginning to think semi rural may not be a bad idea after all! As for the horse, gently blow down his nostrils, they like it and it's how they come to know YOU xx


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## Cat M

Cat M said:


> I'd be happy with solar and septic tank too. Just the initial cost of setting it up, if not already in situ, with the tank being within its age allowance!...although I could have a compost loo! I quite like them actually! And I'd like a well. I'm beginning to think semi rural may not be a bad idea after all! As for the horse, gently blow down his nostrils, they like it and it's how they come to know YOU xx


And my carrots are always wonky, sometimes very amusingly so!! It's stony ground that causes them to do odd things!


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## Cat M

Melosine said:


> Look up Yeguada La Peňa de Bejar.
> This is my area of Spain . Our Easter parade is famous world wide. Not only many horses in my village but with traps as well. Also the odd donkey. However the roads are now getting too busy for them to travel on anything other than back roads.
> Every year at local feria there is a special equestrian display.
> Believe most of us who live in the country do so because we like the quieter life. And it certainly is that.
> 2 acres to indulge our love of gardening. And for dogs to run free and safe in.
> The ones who enjoy this enviroment the most are animal lovers. Dogs in my case. Have rescued many from pup's dumped in front garden to older unwanted variety.
> From 5 at our maximum down now to one.
> Unfortunately not all those with leishmania can be saved. Expensive protective collars and precautions couldnt save our baby because the sandfly affected the bones of our 12 year old . No signs until lethargy set in and despite over €1000 on treatment through floods of tears we had to bid him adios.
> That is the reality of living in the countryside . So animal lovers beware.
> Seemingly idyllic villages far from the maddening crowd may turn out to be your worst nightmare when in need of urgent attention . Be it for you or your pet.
> With 40c temp now raging we have the aircon on for our one remaining pup who, although short haired, who is far from comfortable.
> Know many who just have ceiling fans. How they cope I know not.


Leishmania is an absolute nightmare, isn't it? Bless your heart and soul for rescuing so many. I'm as bad. Now have fur dogs!! Previously rescue rats, pigeons and a feral cat! I'm facing losing two of my oldest dogs now, even the thought of it is killing me. Hate it. But, with all our animals, grief is the price we pay for love, I've found. Whilst it's nowhere near as hot here, it has been hotter than usual lately, all mine are on cooling mats with huge fans on them!! I will look up your area now, thank you! xx


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## mrypg9

Cat M said:


> Don't tell me you have a second hand shop that sells all that unwanted gorgeous vintage Spanish furniture that I love so much?! xx


We don’t sell furniture, just clothes, vases, dinner sets, glassware….we get some nice stuff. Most of my younger friends get their furniture from IKEA.

There are shops that sell ‘antiques’, overpriced and according to a cynical friend, fakes.


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## Cat M

I'd be in there like a shot! I've heard IKEA is the big thing in Spain, nobody younger seems to want Granny's furniture when the old house goes up for sale. I'd kill for half of it, those dressing tables, fabulous wardrobes and ornate beds?! Just amazing! xx


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## mrypg9

Melosine said:


> With 40c temp now raging we have the aircon on for our one remaining pup who, although short haired, who is far from comfortable.
> Know many who just have ceiling fans. How they cope I know not.


I have neither air con nor ceiling fan.
I cope, just about.
During the day all blinds down, doors and windows closed.
After sundown, blinds up, windows and all doors open all night. I get a through draft from the open back door and open front door.
Just had my second cold shower today, will have another one before bed.
My dog has a cooling mat which he sleeps on most of the day.

I like sitting out on the terrace facing the Sierra about midnight, when it’s cool, listening to music or a podcast via IPhone earphones with glass of whiskey or brandy….watching the moon and stars and twinkling lights of planes taking off or landing in Seville or Gibraltar. Not many of them lately though.


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## Cat M

mrypg9 said:


> I have neither air con nor ceiling fan.
> I cope, just about.
> During the day all blinds down, doors and windows closed.
> After sundown, blinds up, windows and all doors open all night. I get a through draft from the open back door and open front door.
> Just had my second cold shower today, will have another one before bed.
> My dog has a cooling mat which he sleeps on most of the day.
> 
> I like sitting out on the terrace facing the Sierra about midnight, when it’s cool, listening to music or a podcast via IPhone earphones with glass of whiskey or brandy….watching the moon and stars and twinkling lights of planes taking off or landing in Seville or Gibraltar. Not many of them lately though.


Yes, I just have those large vintage looking floor fans that look like aeroplane propellers! I swear by them. You are making me SO jealous, sitting on that patio at midnight with a whisky! Hope we get to meet one day! I just googled rescue horses Andalusia...........food for thought!! And I've really enjoyed these conversations and you've been so kind and helpful, all of you xx


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## Melosine

mrypg9 said:


> I have neither air con nor ceiling fan.
> I cope, just about.
> During the day all blinds down, doors and windows closed.
> After sundown, blinds up, windows and all doors open all night. I get a through draft from the open back door and open front door.
> Just had my second cold shower today, will have another one before bed.
> My dog has a cooling mat which he sleeps on most of the day.
> 
> I like sitting out on the terrace facing the Sierra about midnight, when it’s cool, listening to music or a podcast via IPhone earphones with glass of whiskey or brandy….watching the moon and stars and twinkling lights of planes taking off or landing in Seville or Gibraltar. Not many of them lately though.


Having had a field rat and a couple of mice " visiting" in my house don't leave anything open. 
Heard about them but how do the cooling mats work.


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## Cat M

Melosine said:


> Having had a field rat and a couple of mice " visiting" in my house don't leave anything open.
> Heard about them but how do the cooling mats work.


I have mice already! I bought the cooling mats from Amazon, they are gel filled and cold to the touch, the dogs LOVE lying on them. You can get all sizes. You can also pop them in the fridge and alternate them? But if your dogs chew, they may not be the best idea! Can't imagine the gel is any good for them! xx


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## xicoalc

Lynn R said:


> I live in Velez-Malaga, some 30km East of Malaga and 5km inland. It's a very large town, and as such is a very urban setting so maybe less of the scenic charm you would be hoping for! But as far as practicality for a non-driver is concerned, it's great. We have all the facilities in town anyone could want, lots of shops of every kind, restaurants and bars (but not international ones), two health centres, public sports facilities including indoor swimming pool, tennis and padel courts, public gym and a number of private ones, in normal times lots of cultural activities, the majority of them free of charge or at very low cost. The main regional hospital and a large shopping centre are just down the road between us and the coast, and we have a bus service every 15 minutes on weekdays and every half hour on Saturdays and Sundays which calls at both of those and goes to our nearest coastal resort, Torre del Mar which is just 5km away and has many more shops and international restaurants, and a lovely long beach and promenade (as far as I know it's prohibited to walk dogs on the beach, though). There is a section of the beach designated as a dog beach though, and a dedicated dog park in Vélez-Málaga itself and a couple of "via verde" walking tracks where people can exercise their dogs although they have to be kept on the lead. I know of at least 3 veterinary clinics in our town centre (but I don't have a dog myself so I can't recommend one). The longer distance bus services are not as plentiful as they were before the pandemic (the bus companies having seized on the excuse to reduce frequency of service and axe some unprofitable services altogether) but we still have over a dozen buses each day to Málaga and it's possible to get to other places, Nerja for example, by changing buses in Torre del Mar where you can also connect to long distance services to Almeria in one direction or Algeciras (calliing at Málaga and Marbella) in the other. Both our local buses and the Málaga services run on all public holidays including Xmas Day and New Year's Day, and coming from the UK that was and still is a minor miracle to me!


Public services are certainly good, busses etx. But local bus drivers are funcionarios because its a public service so its something considered vital


mrypg9 said:


> I have neither air con nor ceiling fan.
> I cope, just about.
> During the day all blinds down, doors and windows closed.
> After sundown, blinds up, windows and all doors open all night. I get a through draft from the open back door and open front door.
> Just had my second cold shower today, will have another one before bed.
> My dog has a cooling mat which he sleeps on most of the day.
> 
> I like sitting out on the terrace facing the Sierra about midnight, when it’s cool, listening to music or a podcast via IPhone earphones with glass of whiskey or brandy….watching the moon and stars and twinkling lights of planes taking off or landing in Seville or Gibraltar. Not many of them lately though.


Well i couldn't live without the air con but i do religiously sit on the porche enjoying the breeze with a drink looking over the campo. 

Mary, you're gonna have to come amd give me tips on the whole vegetable thing. My plot is 6000m in amongst nothing but fields yet close to everything. But every time I try amd grow vegetables the rabbits eat them. We have fruit trees, grapes and the like but the rest of the fields I just pay aan with a tractor to clean twice a year. 
Urgent vegetable help needed. Apply within!


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## mrypg9

xicoalc said:


> Public services are certainly good, busses etx. But local bus drivers are funcionarios because its a public service so its something considered vital
> 
> Well i couldn't live without the air con but i do religiously sit on the porche enjoying the breeze with a drink looking over the campo.
> 
> Mary, you're gonna have to come amd give me tips on the whole vegetable thing. My plot is 6000m in amongst nothing but fields yet close to everything. But every time I try amd grow vegetables the rabbits eat them. We have fruit trees, grapes and the like but the rest of the fields I just pay aan with a tractor to clean twice a year.
> Urgent vegetable help needed. Apply within!


I‘m a truthful person, Steve, so I have to tell you that my role in the garden work is to pick stuff and hold the hose. The real expert is our gardener Labid. His family own a farm in Morocco and he has expert knowledge of all things that grow, edible or decorative.
We have grapes, dates, walnuts, apples, pears, oranges, gapes, lemons, mangoes,peaches, bananas, papayas , pomegranates, nísperos , bananas and those prickly things.
But quite honestly, only the figs lemons and oranges are of any quality. The mangoes are small and hard, like hand grenades. The pears apples and bananas are also small and hard. The grapes are sour. The vegetables are better. Beans, potatoes and courgettes are ok but the tomatoes and other vegetables aren’t that good.
The avocados are good too.
My friends eat all of what they pick but I often buy from local greengrocers or Carrefour. Maybe I’m a spoilt Brit. They also do a lot of cooking with stuff from the garden. They give me a lot of chard which I hate. 
Ive just come in from sitting out watching lights of cars on the highway. Some distance away so I can see but not hear. It’s 31C at almost 1.30 a.m.
More whiskey might aid sleep😜


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## mrypg9

Melosine said:


> Having had a field rat and a couple of mice " visiting" in my house don't leave anything open.
> Heard about them but how do the cooling mats work.


Like Cat says, there’s some kind of gel which reacts with body heat and starts cooling. Or something like that.
My Choco loves his, he doesn’t chew fortunately.
I think it cost €20 from Amazon.es


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## ccm47

Mary,
Try offering the hard apples and carrots to your neighbour with the horse. Horses need something to grind their teeth down on, otherwise they can get too sharp and cut the inside of their mouths. For this reason I feed my own horses either a couple of carrots or an apple each day.
To "talk" to a horse: extend your open hand towards its nostrils so that it can then sniff it, once it's happy stroke downwards towards the nostrils gently. Do not feed horse yourself as some horses are on a restricted diet to stop them getting too fat or they have allergies.


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## mrypg9

ccm47 said:


> Mary,
> Try offering the hard apples and carrots to your neighbour with the horse. Horses need something to grind their teeth down on, otherwise they can get too sharp and cut the inside of their mouths. For this reason I feed my own horses either a couple of carrots or an apple each day.
> To "talk" to a horse: extend your open hand towards its nostrils so that it can then sniff it, once it's happy stroke downwards towards the nostrils gently. Do not feed horse yourself as some horses are on a restricted diet to stop them getting too fat or they have allergies.



Thank you, do you know, it had never occurred to me that the horse might like those carrots, apples etc….

As I said, I’m not familiar with horses or any animals apart from dogs, really, so I’ve ignored the poor horse. Don’t even know its name or if it’s male or female. I guess it wants to be friendly as it keeps coming to the fence.
Fuli, aka Fulgencio, is even older than me and I think he used to live in the shack as it somewhat incongruously has an ancient rusted satellite dish on the tin roof. He used to be a cook in an Estepona venta before he retired and bought a modern piso.He spends most of the day on his land letting his three dogs roam free and presumably doing whatever you need to do with horses.
I often wonder where the horse goes at night or when it rains. I can see some kind of wooden shelter from my roof terrace but it’s too far away to see clearly.

Fuli’s land is quite extensive but it’s not cultivated. Just wild olive and lemon trees. My friend/neighbour Nela tells me people round here don’t sell land. She still has a small cortijo in the country around Granada where she grew up. Her parents died about twenty years ago. A young cousin and his family now farm the land. When she visits she brings back wonderful ham and sausage and goat meat, not so wonderful for me.

Its a really odd and strange existence living here. So near to a fairly large town yet in so many ways quite rural. A very interesting mixture which I very much like.

Thanks for the horse tip🌹


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## Cat M

mrypg9 said:


> Thank you, do you know, it had never occurred to me that the horse might like those carrots, apples etc….
> 
> As I said, I’m not familiar with horses or any animals apart from dogs, really, so I’ve ignored the poor horse. Don’t even know its name or if it’s male or female. I guess it wants to be friendly as it keeps coming to the fence.
> Fuli, aka Fulgencio, is even older than me and I think he used to live in the shack as it somewhat incongruously has an ancient rusted satellite dish on the tin roof. He used to be a cook in an Estepona venta before he retired and bought a modern piso.He spends most of the day on his land letting his three dogs roam free and presumably doing whatever you need to do with horses.
> I often wonder where the horse goes at night or when it rains. I can see some kind of wooden shelter from my roof terrace but it’s too far away to see clearly.
> 
> Fuli’s land is quite extensive but it’s not cultivated. Just wild olive and lemon trees. My friend/neighbour Nela tells me people round here don’t sell land. She still has a small cortijo in the country around Granada where she grew up. Her parents died about twenty years ago. A young cousin and his family now farm the land. When she visits she brings back wonderful ham and sausage and goat meat, not so wonderful for me.
> 
> Its a really odd and strange existence living here. So near to a fairly large town yet in so many ways quite rural. A very interesting mixture which I very much like.
> 
> Thanks for the horse tip🌹


The sort of mix I'm looking for! So jealous, ha ha xx


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## mrypg9

Cat M said:


> Yes, I just have those large vintage looking floor fans that look like aeroplane propellers! I swear by them. You are making me SO jealous, sitting on that patio at midnight with a whisky! Hope we get to meet one day! I just googled rescue horses Andalusia...........food for thought!! And I've really enjoyed these conversations and you've been so kind and helpful, all of you xx
> [/QUOTE
> 
> I sit here very late at night, usually with a good single malt Scotch, just taking it all in.
> Having a friend for dinner tonight but when she’s gone I’ll be in my usual place and I’ll drink a toast for you to encourage you to keep that Spanish future in your head.🌹❤


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## mrypg9

Other end of the garden


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## Cat M

ccm47 said:


> Mary,
> Try offering the hard apples and carrots to your neighbour with the horse. Horses need something to grind their teeth down on, otherwise they can get too sharp and cut the inside of their mouths. For this reason I feed my own horses either a couple of carrots or an apple each day.
> To "talk" to a horse: extend your open hand towards its nostrils so that it can then sniff it, once it's happy stroke downwards towards the nostrils gently. Do not feed horse yourself as some horses are on a restricted diet to stop them getting too fat or they have allergies.





mrypg9 said:


> I sit here very late at night, usually with a good single malt Scotch, just taking it all in.
> 
> So would I! How beautiful!! And that sky, an incredible blue. Yes, VERY jealous, ha ha. I may get there yet...one day xx
> 
> View attachment 100082


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## Cat M

Yes, please do! One day! Might have a single malt myself later on, sounds good. How come you ended up in Spain? Can you share your story? And I'd love to see your house? xx


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## mrypg9

Did you click to see the first photo I sent you?

We came to Spain in 2008 Tom Prague where we lived for three years because my partner wanted to move here. My son and his wife had a place here for years and she had enjoyed visiting them. At first I hated it here and wanted to move to Berlin but one day it just came to me that this would be my home from now on.
For the first ten years we lived in a big house in a fairly upmarket area. I guess we lowered the tone. Then my partner died three years ago. We’d been together forty years. The house was too big for me so a Spanish friend told her parents I was looking for a smaller place to live and the little house next to theirs on their land was empty….and the rest is history.

There’s a few pictures on my page but none of my current house.


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## Cat M

I saw two of your view from your terrace, one daytime, one evening? I'm so sorry to hear about your partner, devastating. 40 years is wonderful. Many will never achieve that. Fate got you to where you are now, it sounds a lovely house and area xx


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## mrypg9

Cat M said:


> Yes, please do! One day! Might have a single malt myself later on, sounds good. How come you ended up in Spain? Can you share your story? And I'd love to see your house? xx





Cat M said:


> I saw two of your view from your terrace, one daytime, one evening? I'm so sorry to hear about your partner, devastating. 40 years is wonderful. Many will never achieve that. Fate got you to where you are now, it sounds a lovely house and area xx


Just took this . Just a simple single story little house but just right for me. Two bedrooms, kitchen, snide and outside bathrooms, living room with woodburner., semi enclosed patio, terraces. I’m so happy here.


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## Cat M

mrypg9 said:


> Just took this . Just a simple single story little house but just right for me. Two bedrooms, kitchen, snide and outside bathrooms, living room with woodburner., semi enclosed patio, terraces. I’m so happy here.
> 
> View attachment 100085





mrypg9 said:


> Just took this . Just a simple single story little house but just right for me. Two bedrooms, kitchen, snide and outside bathrooms, living room with woodburner., semi enclosed patio, terraces. I’m so happy here.
> 
> View attachment 100085


Absolutely perfect, I agree, just what I'd like. So pretty. And a woodburner! Couldn't live without an open fire...or two! xx


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