# My wife has been offered a position in Singapore is her salary sufficient?



## DXB2SGN

Hi Group,

This is my first post on the Singapore forum and I hope you will be able to help me.

My wife has just been offered the opportunity to take a job in Singapore with an annual salary of S$150,000. We would love to know what the thoughts of the group are as to wether this is enough for us to live on without any additional income. We have a 3 year old son and would also potentially be looking for a live in nanny to assist us.

The plan would be for me to find a job once settled but I would like to make a career change so we would like to take the pressure off having to have any additional income.

Will S$150,000 be enough to live a comfortable expat life including the ability to socialise a lot and save some money whilst living in a nice 2/3 bedroom condo with facilities?

We currently live in Dubai so we're very used to paying a lot of money for accommodation etc but at the moment we have 2 incomes which allows us a good standard of living as well as a fair amount to save.

I would love to hear your thoughts and feedback,

Pete


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## BBCWatcher

Perhaps others may disagree, but I don't think so. Your lifestyle expectations seem to be beyond that income level. To recap:

* socialize "a lot"
* "comfortable expat life"
* "nice 2/3 bedroom condo with facilities"
* "live in nanny"
* "save some money"
* four person household (including the nanny)
* taxes, medical, and other expenses


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## Nitesh-Mishra

DXB2SGN said:


> Hi Group,
> 
> This is my first post on the Singapore forum and I hope you will be able to help me.
> 
> My wife has just been offered the opportunity to take a job in Singapore with an annual salary of S$150,000. We would love to know what the thoughts of the group are as to wether this is enough for us to live on without any additional income. We have a 3 year old son and would also potentially be looking for a live in nanny to assist us.
> 
> The plan would be for me to find a job once settled but I would like to make a career change so we would like to take the pressure off having to have any additional income.
> 
> Will S$150,000 be enough to live a comfortable expat life including the ability to socialise a lot and save some money whilst living in a nice 2/3 bedroom condo with facilities?
> 
> We currently live in Dubai so we're very used to paying a lot of money for accommodation etc but at the moment we have 2 incomes which allows us a good standard of living as well as a fair amount to save.
> 
> I would love to hear your thoughts and feedback,
> 
> Pete


Hey,
According to my point of view its fare enough to locate in singapore with the amount which you have quoted, standard of living is bit expensive but not that too expensive as Dubai, you people can pretty much handle it, only advise is start on savings from now onwards.


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## simonsays

DXB2SGN said:


> Hi Group,
> 
> This is my first post on the Singapore forum and I hope you will be able to help me.
> 
> My wife has just been offered the opportunity to take a job in Singapore with an annual salary of S$150,000. We would love to know what the thoughts of the group are as to wether this is enough for us to live on without any additional income. We have a 3 year old son and would also potentially be looking for a live in nanny to assist us.
> 
> The plan would be for me to find a job once settled but I would like to make a career change so we would like to take the pressure off having to have any additional income.
> 
> Will S$150,000 be enough to live a comfortable expat life including the ability to socialise a lot and save some money whilst living in a nice 2/3 bedroom condo with facilities?
> 
> We currently live in Dubai so we're very used to paying a lot of money for accommodation etc but at the moment we have 2 incomes which allows us a good standard of living as well as a fair amount to save.
> 
> I would love to hear your thoughts and feedback,
> 
> Pete


My simple reply.

Condo = budget from 5K per month to 15K, depending upon where you want to live
Nanny = budget 1k per month.
Child care and such = 1K per month

you can work out the rest.

With one person earning, it will be a tight fit if you want to have a very social life.


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## mrst3030

Hi Pete. I don't have an answer but we are in an almost identical situation, my husband would not be working, and we also have a three year old. I am exploring opportunities so don't have a role yet but it is likely to be the same situation. Please do share what your findings are as we are considering this carefully.


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## momo_7

No... "nice" condo? 
very vague, a "nice" condo in town could easily cost $150k alone. 

$150k is going to be tight at best with a rather mediocre apartment in an outskirt area. 




DXB2SGN said:


> Hi Group,
> 
> This is my first post on the Singapore forum and I hope you will be able to help me.
> 
> My wife has just been offered the opportunity to take a job in Singapore with an annual salary of S$150,000. We would love to know what the thoughts of the group are as to wether this is enough for us to live on without any additional income. We have a 3 year old son and would also potentially be looking for a live in nanny to assist us.
> 
> The plan would be for me to find a job once settled but I would like to make a career change so we would like to take the pressure off having to have any additional income.
> 
> Will S$150,000 be enough to live a comfortable expat life including the ability to socialise a lot and save some money whilst living in a nice 2/3 bedroom condo with facilities?
> 
> We currently live in Dubai so we're very used to paying a lot of money for accommodation etc but at the moment we have 2 incomes which allows us a good standard of living as well as a fair amount to save.
> 
> I would love to hear your thoughts and feedback,
> 
> Pete


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## simonsays

momo_7 said:


> No... "nice" condo?
> very vague, a "nice" condo in town could easily cost $150k alone.
> 
> $150k is going to be tight at best with a rather mediocre apartment in an outskirt area.


150 K per year for condo ? Are you buying or renting ?? :juggle:

A good condo can cost upto 6K or so, and anything above is bordering on luxury.

An average Citizen makes do with 60K per year, so what gives 150 is not enough ?


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## momo_7

simonsays said:


> 150 K per year for condo ? Are you buying or renting ?? :juggle:
> 
> A good condo can cost upto 6K or so, and anything above is bordering on luxury.
> 
> An average Citizen makes do with 60K per year, so what gives 150 is not enough ?



1. How on EARTH would you buy a "nice" condo for $150k? are you living in 1980? 

2. Many 3 bedroom apartments rent for SGD$10k and above in D9/10/11. Quick search on any number of property portals would reveal this. 
Hence the subjectivity in the word "nice". duh?

3. Does it matter what the average Singaporean makes? 
You want a maid, a nice condo and dine out a lot for a family and you REALLY think it's enough? 

The average Singaporean lives in a hdb, most likely in somewhere like bishan or yishun and has a contributing income from a working spouse and eats in a hawker centre on a regular basis. 

That's NOT the lifestyle the OP is asking about. 

4. The OP may need to pay taxes in more than 1 locale. The 150k suddenly becomes 100k or lower. 

Please don't make me laugh.


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## simonsays

momo_7 said:


> 1. How on EARTH would you buy a "nice" condo for $150k? are you living in 1980?
> 
> 2. Many 3 bedroom apartments rent for SGD$10k and above in D9/10/11. Quick search on any number of property portals would reveal this.
> Hence the subjectivity in the word "nice". duh?
> 
> 3. Does it matter what the average Singaporean makes?
> You want a maid, a nice condo and dine out a lot for a family and you REALLY think it's enough?
> 
> The average Singaporean lives in a hdb, most likely in somewhere like bishan or yishun and has a contributing income from a working spouse and eats in a hawker centre on a regular basis.
> 
> That's NOT the lifestyle the OP is asking about.
> 
> 4. The OP may need to pay taxes in more than 1 locale. The 150k suddenly becomes 100k or lower.
> 
> Please don't make me laugh.


Ok, How on earth did you think I implied the OP buying a house for 150K Only ? I meant 150K PA as loan due

As for the rest, No comments.

You don't know if they are gonna live it up, nor do I know if they are gonna scrounge ..

So my answer, 150K is good, for a comfortable life.


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## buddyiksu

No one mentioned schools. With a 3 year old you're looking at S$30k/year at an international school (of course local school would be less). That soon goes up to over S$40k as they get older.


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## Sardonicus

Your operative words were _good standard of living_, which is highly subjective. 

To have what I would I would consider _a good standard of living_ in Singapore it would depend on if, what and when you got a job to supplement your wife's income.

On 150k you can certainly survive but would not really thrive as a family. 

This is why so many people and companies have been leaving.


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## simonsays

Sardonicus said:


> This is why so many people and companies have been leaving.


And more and more and queuing up to enter and work in Singapore


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## momo_7

Sardonicus said:


> Your operative words were _good standard of living_, which is highly subjective.
> 
> To have what I would I would consider _a good standard of living_ in Singapore it would depend on if, what and when you got a job to supplement your wife's income.
> 
> On 150k you can certainly survive but would not really thrive as a family.
> 
> This is why so many people and companies have been leaving.



This is a very accurate statement. 

The cost of living, labor in Singapore together with the fact that there are no more catalysts left to spur growth on explain the incumbent's desperate move to alter the demographics by artificially growing the population by nearly 100% over a few years. 

Coupled with the institutional money that has been and is poised to enter Vietnam as FDI, Singapore doesn't really have any means to compete. The only way is down as the rest of the region catches up and mean reversion occurs. 

At best, a few more years of artificial stimulation then we will see how the absurd median wage / PPI ratio can maintain.


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## momo_7

simonsays said:


> And more and more and queuing up to enter and work in Singapore


Why yes, more 3rd world beggars that you can amaze with your wonderful $5k SGD/month standard of living. 

ROFLMAO


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## simonsays

momo_7 said:


> Why yes, more 3rd world beggars that you can amaze with your wonderful $5k SGD/month standard of living.
> 
> ROFLMAO


Great !!!! 

The last placements for a Data Analysis operation was at 18K Per month + Very much lower than the 5K you seem to have pegged.


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## momo_7

simonsays said:


> Great !!!!
> 
> The last placements for a Data Analysis operation was at 18K Per month + Very much lower than the 5K you seem to have pegged.



Wow!

So you're insinuating that the average wage in Singapore has climbed from the SGD$5k you mentioned in post #7 to SGD$18k / month? 

All in 5 weeks?!?! 

OMG OMG! 

Now you can have a party at MBS for more of your 3rd world buddies!!!! 

ROFLMAO!


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## BBCWatcher

Average wages aren't all that interesting, but here's a statistical fact: real median wages in Singapore have been rising.


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## Sardonicus

BBCWatcher said:


> Average wages aren't all that interesting, but here's a statistical fact: real median wages in Singapore have been rising.


Interesting as everyone I know including myself were/have not been getting raises or bonuses to speak of there for years. 

These are foreigners however and many are not covered by that link _"Residents refer to Singapore Citizens and Permanent Residents."_ i.e. not EP holders.


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## Sardonicus

simonsays said:


> And more and more and queuing up to enter and work in Singapore


Can't speak for other industries, but Financial Services, one of the key seeders of foreign population growth in the last 10-15 year spurt, are all exciting entire functions and departments and shrinking their workforces _from _there where only a few years before they were moving them _to_ there from elsewhere. 

Even DBS are setting up shop in India. 

Plus on top of all that is this next wave of industry malaise that started end of last year and looks to potentially continue for another year or two or three, which results in global headcount reductions in and outside of Singapore. 

Plus one of the big employers of both foreign and local staff, Barclays, has been decimated and with that, scores of jobs. 

The pace of leavers has accelerated like I've never seen before.


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## jcvn

It depends on your lifestyle actually.So your wife earns 12.5k/month 
Let's break down:
- a reasonable condo in rather good location, with facilities (pool, gym, bbq, etc): 6k/month
- international childcare: 2.5k/month. Primary: 3k/month
- live-in maid incl. tax: 1k/month
- rent a car: 1.5-2k/month
Ok so it adds up to 11-12k already without food, social activities. 

But you can minimize your cost like renting a cheaper condo at further location at 4-4.5k(supposed you will rent a car) , local childcare at 1-1.4k, or choose to go around by public transport (very cheap in sg actually), or taxi/uber is not expensive


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## BBCWatcher

jcvn said:


> - a reasonable condo in rather good location, with facilities (pool, gym, bbq, etc): 6k/month


This budget is too high nowadays. Rental rates have fallen quite a bit. Sure, it's _possible_ to spend as much as you want, but that's just too high for the requirements as stated. It's _too_ reasonable.



> - international childcare: 2.5k/month. Primary: 3k/month


Goodness, that's almost double the excellent childcare center near our home that happens to be privately owned and operated. (Not that that matters.) It's certainly not the lowest priced, and it has lots of "international" kids, whatever that means. (If that matters, and it shouldn't. Are we really going to have segregated finger painting according to the parents' income levels and nationalities? Seriously? Read to your kids, and provide them with a diverse range of experiences -- it isn't complicated. The designer labels on their and their friends' tiny sneakers are completely meaningless.) And they just raised their rates! $S2.5K/month is possible, yes -- _barely_. You really have to put some effort into spending that much. For reference, the government maintains data on childcare rates, and I looked through about 700 randomly selected records (before I got tired). Only about 2% of the childcare centers reached S$2000/month or more to care for a 3 year old for a full day (usually 7 to 7 weekdays and 7 to 2 on Saturdays). Even the centers right on top of Orchard Road cluster around S$2000/month.



> - live-in maid incl. tax: 1k/month


This part is too low in my view when considering all-in costs. The FDW levy (no concessions would be allowed here) and minimum (minimum!) salary alone add up to S$765/month (Indonesia and Philippines). Plus food, medical, upfront costs, the extra room, travel, more than minimum salary -- I do think S$1K/month is too low, all-in, and there's a substantial responsibility and element of risk. Does this make sense with full-time childcare? Why not combine full-time childcare with once or twice per week (legal) housekeeping service? Or combine a live-in maid with part-time (half day) or flex-time (block of hours/week) childcare.



> - rent a car: 1.5-2k/month


Which, for the record, is a really, really dumb expenditure in Singapore for the vast majority of people. Even taking the low figure, that's 100 typical UberX rides a month (at a generous $15 each), and somebody else is doing the driving. And I'm not sure that figure is fully costed since one has to consider parking, insurance, ETC, fuel, etc.

I just disagree with this provisional budget for a "random" $12K/month married expatriate with one 3 year old child. It's not how somebody in that situation would typically budget nowadays.


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## simonsays

jcvn said:


> It depends on your lifestyle actually.So your wife earns 12.5k/month
> Let's break down:
> - a reasonable condo in rather good location, with facilities (pool, gym, bbq, etc): 6k/month
> - international childcare: 2.5k/month. Primary: 3k/month
> - live-in maid incl. tax: 1k/month
> - rent a car: 1.5-2k/month
> Ok so it adds up to 11-12k already without food, social activities.
> 
> But you can minimize your cost like renting a cheaper condo at further location at 4-4.5k(supposed you will rent a car) , local childcare at 1-1.4k, or choose to go around by public transport (very cheap in sg actually), or taxi/uber is not expensive


I am with BBCwatcher on this: Why exactly do you need a car in Singapore ?


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## jcvn

Like I mentioned, this budget is for comfortable level. Condo in the central like river valley, kim seng, robertson quay (where got expat community) can easily cost 6k. I mentioned international childcare means having native english teacher, some combined with native chinese teacher, like eton house, higher range like evondale or canadian pre-school. Car will give you a lot of freedom and the fact that I manage a condo and lot of expat tenants rent cars even the condo located right in central singapore. It's difficult to get a taxi/uber during peak hours or on rainy days.

I also mentioned the lower range (condo further from central, childcare like kinderland, mindcharm, cherie hearts, going around by taxi/uber). Budget could be 8k not mentioned food, social stuff

It depends on lifestyle actually. I also know expat families living in hdb where rent is cheaper (2-3k), local childcare at $800, going around by bus/mrt ($50-80) . 5-6k is just fine for this case.


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## BBCWatcher

jcvn said:


> Car will give you a lot of freedom....


The "freedom" to perform high concentration manual labor to avoid killing or injuring people, otherwise known as driving? In Singapore?

I really don't get it. Hasn't anybody watched "Downton Abbey"? _Not_ driving is the luxury, as they well understood even a century ago. And they didn't even have smartphones as entertainment, but they did have hired drivers.


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## BBCWatcher

jcvn said:


> I mentioned international childcare means having native english teacher....


I suppose if you are not a native English speaker, or if you don't talk with your kids (because you're too busy driving?), that might be a problem. And that also presupposes that a Singaporean who learned English (and perhaps another language) from birth isn't a "native English speaker." I don't agree with that. (And then why suffer the linguistic "contamination" of an underbudgeted live-in maid?)

By the way, I'm highly confident Chinese is a great language to learn for the 21st century. There's ample opportunity for children to do that in Singapore, and it doesn't require $2500/month childcare for a 3 year old -- which is hard to find!

Look, this doesn't add up. Sure, if you want to spend a lot of money nobody will stop you except perhaps your bank. That's not especially helpful information, though. A $12K/month entrant into Singapore with a spouse and one child just isn't going to behave this way nowadays (or even before nowadays). That household is going to live comfortably but not ridiculously. There's little point in exploring the ridiculous budgetary scenario.


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## Sardonicus

BBCWatcher said:


> The "freedom" to perform high concentration manual labor to avoid killing or injuring people, otherwise known as driving? In Singapore?
> 
> I really don't get it. Hasn't anybody watched "Downton Abbey"? _Not_ driving is the luxury, as they well understood even a century ago. And they didn't even have smartphones as entertainment, but they did have hired drivers.


as we're talking SG, ^this


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## momo_7

To state the bleeding obvious, "comfort" is a relative term. 

Assuming you don't want to hire a chauffeur, having a car is obviously a step up and generally taken for granted in most mid and above expat packages in most countries. 

My idea of what most expats consider a "comfortable expat life", for a family of 4-5, probably needs 2 times the stipulated amount at a minimum. 

For God's sake, there are, and have been, so many expats in singapore making 7 figures a year, before factoring in their perks. Things seem to have become much more competitive over the years, granted, but there are still good numbers. 


(i) 3br Condo in / near town - $6k-10k conservatively? Orchard / stevens / scotts / newton etc 
(ii) Maid - $1.5k ?
(iii) Active social life - $3k conservatively? Drinks, entertaining at Expat places etc
(iv) Food - Eating out and shopping at expat supermarkets like Jason's for 4 - $6k?
(v) school fees - Int'l school, tuition - $1k? i have no idea
(vi) Car - Duh? comfortable expat life, taken for granted in almost all decent expat packages. Especially with a family of 3. - $2k?
(vii) Taxes - Do you need to pay in more than 1 country? 
(viii) savings - the OP mentioned
(ix) Miscellaneous - utility bills, medical bills, internet and mobile phone bills, clothes etc - $1k?
(x) Club memberships? 


The above IS what a few of my friends spend as expats in singapore. Family of 3 and a maid, monthly expenditure comes up to $20k as a floor for expenditure? 

This has always been my impression of a decent expat lifestlye. Nothing excessive either imo. 






jcvn said:


> Like I mentioned, this budget is for comfortable level. Condo in the central like river valley, kim seng, robertson quay (where got expat community) can easily cost 6k. I mentioned international childcare means having native english teacher, some combined with native chinese teacher, like eton house, higher range like evondale or canadian pre-school. Car will give you a lot of freedom and the fact that I manage a condo and lot of expat tenants rent cars even the condo located right in central singapore. It's difficult to get a taxi/uber during peak hours or on rainy days.
> 
> I also mentioned the lower range (condo further from central, childcare like kinderland, mindcharm, cherie hearts, going around by taxi/uber). Budget could be 8k not mentioned food, social stuff
> 
> It depends on lifestyle actually. I also know expat families living in hdb where rent is cheaper (2-3k), local childcare at $800, going around by bus/mrt ($50-80) . 5-6k is just fine for this case.


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## BBCWatcher

momo_7 said:


> Assuming you don't want to hire a chauffeur, having a car is obviously a step up and generally taken for granted in most mid and above expat packages in most countries.


Singapore is not "most countries," driving a privately owned automobile is becoming less popular throughout the developed world (including in Singapore -- COEs are falling), Singapore's public transit system (including especially its rail system) has rapidly expanded just within the past few years, and the world's technology and automobile companies are working feverishly on self-driving vehicles because most people have figured out that driving is tedious.

The expenditure pattern you are describing simply will not be what a $12K/month inbound to Singapore with a spouse and 3 year old will adopt. They _cannot_. You might as well be describing Eduardo Saverin's expenditure patterns in Singapore. It's fantasy. So if you want to argue that the original poster cannot have a "comfortable expat life" in Singapore then you've made your claim. I disagree, _certainly_ with the comfortable part. Let's come back down to earth and discuss the (still comfortable) realities of living on $12K/month in Singapore -- and saving some of that $12K/month, too. Let's start with scratching the privately owned (or leased) automobile and the chore of driving it yourself.


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## BBCWatcher

So now let's look at a _realistic_ 2016 budget for a family of three, one working spouse earning S$12K/month, and one three year old child. Here we go....

* 2 bedroom condo, 2016 rental market - not to exceed $4K/month. (PLENTY of lovely options, about 85 square meters plus or minus, including near MRT stations ~4 stops away from any workplace also near a station.)
* Once per week/4 hours per visit, legal agency home cleaning service - $300/month
* Full-time childcare for a 3 year old, high quality center near home - $1500/month
* EZ-Link or NETS FlashPay cards (bus/train), with an occasional taxi - $200/month
* Electricity, water, gas, trash (SP Services) - $200/month
* Air conditioner cleaning service - $25/month
* Eating at home, sampling local hawker food, shopping at FairPrice, dining out a couple times/week at family restaurants, making your own coffee at home for your travel mug/skipping daily Starbucks - $1000/month
* One drinkable bottle of wine per week at home - $130/month
* M1 Internet with home phone line - $30/month
* StarHub or M1 prepaid mobile phone service for two - $40/month
* Income taxes - about $950/month (something of a worst case, and no, even a U.S. expatriate at this income level would not have any U.S. income tax on this income)

Total so far = up to $8475/month. Add in unreimbursed medical expenses, miscellaneous expenses (concert tickets, a bit of travel), clothes and housewares, and savings out of the remaining $3525/month.

Comfortable, doable? Of course, sure. You just have to think about and be sensible about expenses like at least 99% of the planet, that's all. Avoid the (stupid, stupid, stupid) privately owned or leased automobile and live-in maid. Don't do something stupid with housing, like live next to the Prime Minister in a bigger house. Don't have caviar and champagne every day. (Don't feel like cooking? Try some excellent local food at $4/plate.) Don't get mobile phone subscriptions at all. Don't keep your home at meat locker temperature, and remember to shut off the air conditioner when you don't need it.

This budget gets more difficult when the 3 year old gets a couple years old and is ready for school. Public school placements are hard to get for foreign students, and private schools are quite expensive. So at that point -- just about when a two year lease is up, maybe -- then reducing the rental budget would help a lot. Or do that now. There's no requirement to spend even $4000/month. If the other spouse can work at least part-time and generate some income, that'd also help with school.


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## berlinda

Not sure about anything else but the live in nanny part, it is actually pretty cheap to have a nanny in Singapore. 

Salary goes between $350-$500 a month after all the initial starting costs. Most of the nannies either come from Indonesia or Philippines.


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