# I don't have a maid. So what?



## WrappingPaper

I've run into so many people here who are shocked that I don't have a live-in maid. I just want to say, "So what?"

I did just fine without one before I came here so I don't think one is needed here. Many Americans here even are surprised and I know they didn't have a live-in maid back home because that's almost unheard of unless maybe you're a multibillionaire.

I'm here on a dependent pass so I don't have a job and don't think it's justified and I mention that when I get sympathetic looks. 

Are we the only expat family without a maid?


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## BBCWatcher

Good grief, no, you're not the only such family. The vast majority of households in Singapore do not have live-in domestic helpers.

On edit: According to government statistics, there are approximately 210,000 foreign domestic workers in Singapore of all types. There are over 1.2 million households in Singapore. The FDW rate per expat household is quite difficult to calculate, but it's got to be way less than half.


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## simonsays

BBCWatcher said:


> Good grief, no, you're not the only such family. The vast majority of households in Singapore do not have live-in domestic helpers.
> 
> On edit: According to government statistics, there are approximately 210,000 foreign domestic workers in Singapore of all types. There are over 1.2 million households in Singapore. The FDW rate per expat household is quite difficult to calculate, but it's got to be way less than half.


while casually talking about maids, the general consensus among my friends is, it is most of the 'highly paid expats' and the natives .. 

The mid level expats don't have spouse working so no maid issue is the rationale .. 

And the majority of the natives take up maids, because husband and wife go to work-> somebody has to take care of the kids ..


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## BBCWatcher

Sure, the employment of domestic workers will skew toward the wealthiest households. That's true everywhere.


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## Singapore Saint

Good for you! It always amazed me the number of people who all of a sudden were unable to look after themselves as soon as they moved to Singapore and wondered how on earth they could cope bringing up a baby themselves without a live-in slave, sorry, maid to help them.

I, for one, applaud you for not having a maid!


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## WrappingPaper

You all make some good points. Maybe it's just the part of Singapore or condo I live in...but everybody here has maids, even families with a stay-at-home parent with one or two children (and those without children). I'm often the only mom on the playground and people often ask me if I have a helper. When I say no, they're dumfounded and seemed concerned for my well-being. I just want to laugh at them but I don't. I never say this to people's faces, but it's not that we can't afford a maid, we choose not to have one for many reasons.

Now, I realize some families need a helper if both parents are working or if they have lots of young children and I understand there are some advantages to having live-in help. 

WIth that being said, I agree with the comment about how some people all of a sudden are unable to do things themselves when they move to Singapore. I even heard someone say that when their maid went home to visit her family that they went and stayed in a hotel because they couldn't live without someone cleaning up after them. That's just ridiculous.

Also, it appears that having a maid makes SOME (not all, some) people feel like big shots, especially if they come from a country where having a live-in maid is cost prohibitive.


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## simonsays

then again, for some countries, having a maid is the norm, no kidding .. and anyway, if the maid is part of the benefits from employer as allowance, then why not get it ?? 

about the part of employer staying in a hotel minus the maid .. well, you are listening to a bit of yarn I guess .. 

Are you reading Nury Vitacchi too much ???


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## wesmant

We decided not to have maid because we did not want anybody to live with us, in a small flat.
Live in a 100 sqm roof, with no lawn to maintain, we can do everything ourself 

I would agree that maid is a need if one living in a landed property, with quite a large area to maintain (also a separate door can be arranged for someone anti social like me).
But for some who think that having a maid is a need, they even let the maid sleep outside (read: living room or even kitchen). It's awkward to to my perspective


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## zhonger

many many more here live without a maid, different people have different needs, why hire a maid when you do not need one.


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## Snarplett

Ditto ... we have a housekeeper that comes by three times a week for 4 hours to help tidy up. We didn't like the idea of having someone living in a utility room off the kitchen (where the doors lock from the inside). Not that there's anything wrong with a live-in maid, but our apartment is far too small for someone to live in the area designated for a helper.


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## simonsays

Snarplett said:


> Ditto ... we have a housekeeper that comes by three times a week for 4 hours to help tidy up. We didn't like the idea of having someone living in a utility room off the kitchen (where the doors lock from the inside). Not that there's anything wrong with a live-in maid, but our apartment is far too small for someone to live in the area designated for a helper.


just a curious question .. your housekeeper, how did you source her ?

what is her status ?


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## Snarplett

There are a few agencies that are run by foreign domestic helpers. Ours has an S Pass. They're in the classifieds.


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## BBCWatcher

My understanding is that it's legal to hire a Singaporean citizen or permanent resident for part time housekeeping, but it is not legal to hire a foreign domestic worker (FDW) on any type of employment/work pass. (If you request a Letter of Consent from the Ministry of Manpower, and if it's approved, it might be possible to employ a DP or LTVP+ holder as a part time housekeeper, but that's at least not common.) FDWs are only allowed to work for their sponsoring employer and no one else as I understand it.

Yes, there are lots of FDWs taking second and third jobs during their "off" hours away from their sponsoring household. They're not supposed to do that, and other employers aren't supposed to hire them.

Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong, but that's my understanding of the law.


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## Snarplett

That's correct BBC. If they're on a work permit as a domestic helper, they cannot work for others who are not their direct employer. Even if it's unpaid work. With a S Pass, under a contract and company, they are able to work for clients of their company.


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## BBCWatcher

But can a housekeeping company bring in S pass foreign workers? There'd at least be a quota/percentage limit, I assume, but I thought MOM didn't allow foreign workers in that industry except as direct household employees.


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## Snarplett

Yes. A housekeeping company can get S passes for their workers. Maid agencies get work permits for their staff... they just take commissions from their salaries.


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## wesmant

I guess even if something is wrong (not tally) between the work and the visa, it's the company problem, not the client.
Don't be surprise if some of the maid has "degree certificate", and the S-pass holdet are probably declared to handle admin in the company, but they are too taking the actual jobs.

Not sure abt S-Pass, but i believe there's some flexibility on the work scope as long as the main task are done by him/her. Unlike Work-permit holder, they can't work in different role from
What mentioned in their Permit. E.g: construction workers can work as a cleaner.


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## simonsays

my 2 cents, I know there is Not S Pass for Domestic Household workers, and agency or not, it is not allowed.

Only PR / SC can do freelance / part time housekeeping.

For the answer it is the company's problem, you are wrong, -it is the employer "or client's problem.

I know because I did assist in cases like that, when some DH were rounded up by MOM a few years ago, for freelancing under similiar schemes.

Sounds pretty legal, but they are not, unless they are one of those companies like Ah Mahs on Wheels and the like, who advertise and do their business legally

Just because it is tolerated and look-no-evil, see-no-evil attitude doesn't mean it is legal. 

wesmant: if you mean construction worker "CAN" work as a cleaner, again you are wrong : of late, MOM has been cracking down on companies that deploy workers for stuff that is not in their JD per se- like using them as driver, fork lift operator etc, in view of the tightened Safety Standards being enforced ..

As for degree holders working as maids etc .. well, that is the sad part of the countries they come from - educated but no work .. or the employers are smart to not keep anybody on roster for too long, lest they become labour militants ..


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## wesmant

ecureilx said:


> wesmant: if you mean construction worker "CAN" work as a cleaner, again you are wrong : of late, MOM has been cracking down on companies that deploy workers for stuff that is not in their JD per se- like using them as driver, fork lift operator etc, in view of the tightened Safety Standards being enforced ..


Opps, I meant CAN'T. apologize for that, handhelds. Work Permit holder only can do job as specified in their permit. I happen to see in one of my past project, where a workers was under cleaner's permit from one of our sub-contractors then, and we rejected to deploy the worker at our project as the task was not cleaning.

As for the prev post when I said it's the company problems, I was referring to the company like "Ah mah on wheel" and the similar, not a freelancer. 
I read from snarplett posts that she had mentioned some agencies and classifeds things. Nothing about freelance(ers); hence, I did not assume she's getting a freelance maid to help her.


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## BBCWatcher

I would caution that, just because it's an "agency" doesn't mean they're following the law. If you employ a part-time housekeeper whether from an agency or not you might still have legal responsibility if he/she is not work eligible. Technically the employer can be subject to a fine of up to S$10,000 and/or a 1 year prison term, as I read it.

It's a bit of a mess as I see it. There probably should be some better licensing and regulation of part-time agencies so that people using their services know that they're doing business with a licensed agency that's periodically inspected and audited, that only work-eligible individuals are deployed, and that the agency is providing adequate insurance coverage to take care of their needs in case they are injured or otherwise need help. I think Singapore has made great strides in making sure full-time foreign domestic workers are treated well, but the part-time sector appears to have lots of problems. A well functioning part-time sector which allows (for example) DP, LTVP+, and foreign students to work a maximum of, say, 8 to 10 hours per week in a safe, well-regulated system could relieve some population pressure since some people might opt for part-time help instead of full-time help. (Singaporeans and PRs could of course work any amount of time across any number of part-time customers, so they'd have a big advantage -- and they should. Right now they're competing against many unregulated/illegal moonlighting FDWs, other foreigners, etc.)


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## Snarplett

If you hire a moonlighter, you're just asking for trouble I guess. Google housekeeping services in Singapore and you'll find a list of MoM registered companies. Whether they're Indonesian, Filipina(/o), Vietnamese, etc they all have valid work permits and immigration status. I guess the point of the housekeeper side of the thread was that some people choose not to have a live in maid, but also want the convenience of someone helping out around the house.


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## simonsays

WrappingPaper said:


> *WIth that being said, I agree with the comment about how some people all of a sudden are unable to do things themselves when they move to Singapore. I even heard someone say that when their maid went home to visit her family that they went and stayed in a hotel because they couldn't live without someone cleaning up after them. That's just ridiculous.
> *
> Also, it appears that having a maid makes SOME (not all, some) people feel like big shots, especially if they come from a country where having a live-in maid is cost prohibitive.


In a lighter vein .. I heard that one of the participants for the upcoming 'anti population growth' gathering had whined why she couldn't bring her maid along .. since the organisers have been told it is for Citizens ONLY  

That's the stuff urban legands are made of I guess ..


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## wesmant

ecureilx said:


> In a lighter vein .. I heard that one of the participants for the upcoming 'anti population growth' gathering had whined why she couldn't bring her maid along .. since the organisers have been told it is for Citizens ONLY
> 
> That's the stuff urban legands are made of I guess ..


that remind me to "some mothers" who claimed themself being a super mom, but ask the maid (yes, it's maid! not Nanny!) to prepare most of their children daily needs 

how ironic


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## Snarplett

wesmant said:


> that remind me to "some mothers" who claimed themself being a super mom, but ask the maid (yes, it's maid! not Nanny!) to prepare most of their children daily needs
> 
> how ironic


LOL.... that's too farney


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## pichuya

I don't feel that having a maid means you are different. End of the day, do you need one? Our house have part time maid to come over the weekend and help out with some heavy duty chores.


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## SandhurstonHighSt

Having a maid is no longer the status symbol in Singapore but a necessity. In many cases it the the maid who is actually the "boss" of the house. Lets look at it this way.

1. The government encouraged more women to work and the related tax breaks given has spawned a generation of two income households.

2. Double income means more spending money and this money goes to property investments to try and reap capital gains.

3. Initially the maid is employed to take care of the household chores and the odd kid.

4. Many households have reaped good capital gains and with the additional wealth it is again poured into the property market. So you will find many households living in HDBs with 200,000 dollar cars and it will not be uncommon for them to have at least 2 or 3 private properties.

4. Sometimes, the property market takes a wrong turn and many are left with a huge mortgage loan repayments to banks as many are prone to stretching their investments to reap additional gains.

5. the wife in this situation will have no choice but to continue working to service the mortgage loans.

6. So in many cases the maid is there even if they need one or not.

7. This is why you will see many with maids and over time everyone gets used to having one around.

8. In fact you will see many households terrified at losing their maids, not because they cannot live without one, but it will cause a financial crisis if they were to revert to a single income.

9. Some maids are aware of this predicament and hence it is not uncommon to find some households where the maid is the boss.


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## simonsays

SandhurstonHighSt said:


> ...
> 
> 8. In fact you will see many households terrified at losing their maids, not because they cannot live without one, but it will cause a financial crisis if they were to revert to a single income.


I had this colleague, who was walking from home to work + goes home for lunch .. 

One day, our CEO said the office is being shifted to another place, and the colleague did a calculation:

Travel, lunch + other stuff. Since she was doing just admin stuff, and low pay, she decided to fire the maid and stay home .. and it was then I found out that by having a maid and paying levy etc, she was saving about 500 $ a month, by working .. 

And when the saving went down with added travel cost + lunch cost, she decided it wasn't worth it.

And that's something most who seem aghast at Singaporeans finding it tough without maid don't know about .

For the rest, you hit the nail, fair and square .. !!


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## NiamhNaive

Hi Wrapping Paper, glad I've found this thread as I feel very much in the minority about my feelings about maids. I'm an expat and am tired of people (by this I mean other expats 99% of the time) questioning me on why I have no intention of getting a maid. If I say I don't need or want one, I then get told, oh give it a few more months and you'll change your mind and I have to bite my lip a bit. I am perfectly happy looking after my family thank you, and am in a privileged position to be able to do that as I've stopped work for the time being.
Anyway just wondered if the OP still feels the same, if she's still around!


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## beppi

I never needed, wanted or had a maid throughout my 15 years in Singapore (incl. marrying a local and getting a baby, with both parents working full-time). Nobody ever questioned me either - maybe they all knew that I am frank enough to tell them "Maids are for the lazy!"


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## NiamhNaive

Very interesting, Beppi. So if you didn't have a maid but were working full time, what did you do? Did your family help out or did you have other childcare options in place?


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## beppi

It was easy with kid in whole day childcare from early on and our place probably not as clean as other's (but we were happy with it). My mother-in-law initially tried to help a bit, but usually caused more confusion that benefit, so ended up just sometimes picking up our girl from childcare, if we had to work late.

Edited to add: Why should I have done differently from my home country (Europe), where having a maid is financially all but impossible unless you're in the top 5% of earners.


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## Snarplett

Wow... I haven't been on this thread in a while. Since then we broke down and got lazy. We have a part time maid.


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## Strut123

My friends family have a cleaner twice a week , no maid, no need


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## NiamhNaive

So what if your place isn't as clean as those who have maids, personally I feel more relaxed in a slightly messy home than an immaculate show-type home with someone constantly tidying and fussing over a few crumbs her and there, that would put me on edge.
I think people need to relax a bit more over the need for excessive housework and it's all about organization anyway. I have young kids and a house to look after but I certainly don't spend all day slaving away at home leaving me no time left for my kids, that's utter nonsense and sounds like an excuse just to get a cleaner, and no, my house is not filthy!


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## NiamhNaive

Snarplett in your first post you mentioned you had a part time cleaner, so you must have been lazier for longer than you thought ;-)


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