# Im sorry ... but am I going mad ???



## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

I wish I hadnt logged onto the Sur in English today! I think Im going mad !!

I consider myself to be very liberal in my approach to life, I try not to discriminate or be judgemental of others. But in this case Im finding it very difficult :confused2:

This "guy" is a rapist ! (of women!!!) - yet is being transferred to the womens section of the prison because he wants to be one ! :confused2: Now wanting to change sex is not something I object to or have a particular opinion on ... each to their own. But surely given that he still is a man - and given his offending history - this is soooooooooooooo wrong!

Or is it just me who thinks it is ?????????

Pre-op transsexual serving sentence for raping a woman is allowed to move to women's prison unit. Surinenglish.com


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## mayotom (Nov 8, 2008)

this is confusing, he raped women!!! so he is Sexually attracted to Women, but he wants to be a Woman?? does he think that this will up his odds of picking up Women....

and Sue I agree, he shouldn't be allowed to transfer,, in fact I think he should be transferred to some small island in the Centre of the ocean along with all the other rapists, with no food or supplies and then try to survive


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

mayotom said:


> this is confusing, he raped women!!! so he is Sexually attracted to Women, but he wants to be a Woman?? does he think that this will up his odds of picking up Women....
> 
> and Sue I agree, he shouldn't be allowed to transfer,, in fact I think he should be transferred to some small island in the Centre of the ocean along with all the other rapists, with no food or supplies and then try to survive


Well Im glad its not just me that thinks this is really odd ! First priority should always be given to reducing the opportunity for reoffending - and protecting potential victims .... thats standard legal practice .... this seems to completely contradict that !

Sexuality, or "wish" to change sexuality is irrelevant in this case as far as Im concerned ..... and Im not even commenting on what I think the punishment for rapists should be ...... he has obviously been put in prison for his actions by the relevant authorities ...... so its a complete nonsense that they are now addressing his "rights" and not "discriminating" against him at the possible expense of others ......


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

words fail me!


jo xx


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

You are quite safe on this forum, Sue. I will not allow any political correctness here whilst I am a mod!!!! This is simply.............. WRONG!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

... I keep coming back to this thread...dunno why, its just alarming isnt it! whichever way you look at it its wrong! 

Jo xxx


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

.......so does he get his own room? In which case thats discrimiation or is some lucky lady inmate gonna get no sleep for the rest of his sentence?????? Or maybe he'll wake up one morning without his male tackle anymore, cos thats what would happen if I went anywhere near him!!!!!! Maybe thats it?? thats the plan???

Jo xx


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

Indeed ...so the guys has all his male genitalia? ? Now where did I put that rusty chainsaw? Might as well see how it works on his neck too!!


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

SteveHall said:


> Indeed ...so the guys has all his male genitalia? ? Now where did I put that rusty chainsaw? Might as well see how it works on his neck too!!


Yes he does indeed still have all the necessary tackle to offend again! strange this is they wont do the operation because of his psychological problems !!! :confused2::confused2: but dont think his psychological problems will cause any problems in a womens section of the prison with his history !! DUH !!!!


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## Caz.I (Mar 21, 2009)

Suenneil said:


> Yes he does indeed still have all the necessary tackle to offend again! strange this is they wont do the operation because of his psychological problems !!! :confused2::confused2: but dont think his psychological problems will cause any problems in a womens section of the prison with his history !! DUH !!!!


Well it is a bizzare decision but common sense often seems to go out the window when lawyers manipulate the law for the sake of their client and the idea of individual rights over-ride those of the public or potential victims.

I dont know all the facts about this case but heard on the news that the person in question doesnt even want the operation! So how on earth is he on the Civil Register as a woman? And if they are saying his desire to change gender comes from a pyschological problem then IMO he shouldnt be classified as a transexual anyway, as its not a gender disorder, am not an expert in this but think he would be considered transvestite, who are usally heterosexual men anyway.

Secondly, its bizarre that the court have ignored the huge problem of gender violence that exists here and the fact that by putting him in a prison in close contact with women they are putting hundreds of women in danger and are just giving him the opportunity to re-offend. He should be in some kind of mental health secure unit within the (men's) prison. 
Although I read today the Public Prosecutors office is against it. Just hope there is enough protest to change the decision.


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

Caz.I said:


> Well it is a bizzare decision but common sense often seems to go out the window when lawyers manipulate the law for the sake of their client and the idea of individual rights over-ride those of the public or potential victims.
> 
> I dont know all the facts about this case but heard on the news that the person in question doesnt even want the operation! So how on earth is he on the Civil Register as a woman? And if they are saying his desire to change gender comes from a pyschological problem then IMO he shouldnt be classified as a transexual anyway, as its not a gender disorder, am not an expert in this but think he would be considered transvestite, who are usally heterosexual men anyway.
> 
> ...


Agree with you Caz - they seem to be ignoring the potential risks to others, and this risk is high given that he has already offended against women!! I will be interested to read the outcome on this one.


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

It's a despicable scenario and a psychological minefield. But going non PC, let's face it, if he does transfer to the women's prison, they're in there for a reason too and he's the one who's going to be getting all the aggro - not the other way round. OK, he may "get off" on the fact of the close proximity of incarcerated females, but really, he's not going to last very long there once word gets around. There'll be justice of a different sort waiting for him in there.

Tally.xx


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

Tallulah said:


> It's a despicable scenario and a psychological minefield. But going non PC, let's face it, if he does transfer to the women's prison, they're in there for a reason too and he's the one who's going to be getting all the aggro - not the other way round. OK, he may "get off" on the fact of the close proximity of incarcerated females, but really, he's not going to last very long there once word gets around. There'll be justice of a different sort waiting for him in there.
> 
> Tally.xx


I agree in part Tally ..... but as someone who has worked in prisons in the UK I also know there will be a lot of very vulnerable females in there too ..... who can be easy prey for some people .... Sue x


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

Suenneil said:


> I agree in part Tally ..... but as someone who has worked in prisons in the UK I also know there will be a lot of very vulnerable females in there too ..... who can be easy prey for some people .... Sue x


Well, I have no idea of the Spanish prison system, but surely should anything ever occur like that in the UK, from your knowledge of prisons there, would they ever be allowed to integrate with the other prisoners? Kept in solitary confinement - transferred to a psych hospital?? It must be difficult to keep control of - with the overcrowding and staff shortages.

Tally.x


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

Tallulah said:


> Well, I have no idea of the Spanish prison system, but surely should anything ever occur like that in the UK, from your knowledge of prisons there, would they ever be allowed to integrate with the other prisoners? Kept in solitary confinement - transferred to a psych hospital?? It must be difficult to keep control of - with the overcrowding and staff shortages.
> 
> Tally.x


I have to admit that I never came across anything similar to whats happening here! Although I did write a Court report on someone who was officially "transgendered" and the subject came up of which prison - if prison were to be considered. And at that time after speaking to my Seniors we all agreed that prison had to be discounted as an option because "she" would have had to go to a male prison given that "she" was born male. If memory serves me right it doesnt matter that you change gender or are in the process of doing so .... its whats on your birth certificate that matters, the law could have changed since then in the UK but I dont believe so. In a male prison "she" would have been kept seperately from male inmantes but that wouldnot be guaranteed.


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

*Do you remember a similar Spanish story ??*

This takes me back a couple of months to a very similar story in the Spanish press! Only this "guy" has been given the go ahead by the UK Courts to transfer to a womens prison (even though "he" still has all his bits in place!!!) .... and he is a convicted RAPIST!

Is it still just me thats going mad ??????????????? 

Transsexual prisoner wins right to be in female prison - Telegraph

Sue :ranger:


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Suenneil said:


> This takes me back a couple of months to a very similar story in the Spanish press! Only this "guy" has been given the go ahead by the UK Courts to transfer to a womens prison (even though "he" still has all his bits in place!!!) .... and he is a convicted RAPIST!
> 
> Is it still just me thats going mad ???????????????
> 
> ...



I suspect "he" may well get his gender realignment operation done by some of the inmates!!!!! Lets hope so, it'll save a few thousand for the NHS!!


Jo xxx


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

jojo said:


> I suspect "he" may well get his gender realignment operation done by some of the inmates!!!!! Lets hope so, it'll save a few thousand for the NHS!!
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


Indeed  Did you read the bit where they were saying "he" will probably still have to be kept in isolation, for safety reasons, at a cost of 80k a year!!!

I think this is sooooooooooo bad.

The Human Rights issue is a double edged sword - it works in worthy cases - but allows so much wrongdoing and bad decision making on the other


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Suenneil said:


> Indeed  Did you read the bit where they were saying "he" will probably still have to be kept in isolation, for safety reasons, at a cost of 80k a year!!!
> 
> I think this is sooooooooooo bad.
> 
> The Human Rights issue is a double edged sword - it works in worthy cases - but allows so much wrongdoing and bad decision making on the other


For everyone who wins their human rights, someone else loses theirs

Jo xxx


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

I wouldn't be too concerned. I heard that in the Middle East if a male offended in some manner he was thrown into a harem where he died an agonizing death. If the female prisoners get hold of this guy I think that it wont be them being raped. Poetic justice ...?


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

JBODEN said:


> I wouldn't be too concerned. I heard that in the Middle East if a male offended in some manner he was through into a harem where he died an agonizing death. If the female prisoners get hold of this guy I think that it wont be them being raped. Poetic justice ...?


I think we touched on this when the Spanish story emerged - that we have to assume that a lot (and it is a lot) of women in prison are vulnerable themselves - and putting someone in with them who has previously offended against women, in such a serious way, is a danger to many of them.

I suppose we watch this space - and either "he" gets given a hard time - or he causes harm to others .... no doubt if that happens all we will hear is "lessons will be learned from this" !!!!!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

It's complicated. In order to get gender reassignment surgery on the NHS, you need to show that you can live in the gender you are being assigned to. I'm not sure how long the period is but for whatever length of time you have to do everything as if you were already gender reassigned.
That involves things like dressing appropriately, using the 'correct' public loo, in fact, all the things men and women do in their own ways.
This presents problems as pre-op people are usually rather obviously in a state of transition and can look rather odd. It's awkward for the public - but hell for the individual. 
The other misconception is that gender and sexual orientation are identical - they aren't. 
I have had casework involving a male to female assignment where the reassigned female was sexually attracted to women -and so a lesbian -as he was attracted to women before he became a she.
I know all this sounds weird and before I got involved with Diversity Law I used to find people like that repellent. I'm quite ashamed of that now and one of my London friends is a gender-reassigned female who is a highly respected Aldermaston nuclear physicist and an OBE.
Political correctness doesn't come into this but empathy does. I cannot imagine the hell it must be to live for years feeling you are in the wrong gender and as for actually doing something about it.......
This particular case does sound odd but it really shouldn't obscure the fact that many quite ordinary people from all walks of life are born into the wrong gender.
If people cynically pretend to be other than they really are they deserve punishment. Rather like the Jamaican drug-dealer arrested with her boyfriend who, on being threatened with deportation claimed she had 'become a lesbian' whilst in prison. Life in Jamaica is admittedly harsh and violent for gays and lesbians and people like this woman who abuse the system make life hard for deserving cases.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Rereading all the posts more carefully -and the Sur article - I can see why you are all outraged. 
But gender reassigned people (horrible term but the legally correct one) are often misunderstood and have very sad lives.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Suenneil said:


> the law could have changed since then in the UK but I dont believe so. .


Yes, it has changed in the last year or so -the Gender Recognition Act, I think it's called. All documentation in your 'new' gender.
Which presents a few other problems as you can imagine.


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Rereading all the posts more carefully -and the Sur article - I can see why you are all outraged.
> But gender reassigned people (horrible term but the legally correct one) are often misunderstood and have very sad lives.


I agree M - you can see from an older post of mine that I supervised and wrote court reports on a small number of gender reassigned offenders.

This I think was not purely about gender reassignment - and I accept your point about sexuality being different - but this individual raped a female - so irrespective of gender / sexuality - is a danger to females otherwise he/she would not be in prison now. 

And again although I agree that gender reassigned people may be misunderstood and judged badly - this doesnt take the risk away in this particular case. misunderstood or not its the risk assessment to potential victims that should be at the forefont here. In my opinion the risk of reoffending and potential risk to new victims outweights the risk to the offender.


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

Phew! Sorry M - just read that back and I went off on one a bit! ... I stepped back in time to my previous profession - have to admit I get carried away and enjoyed it at the same time! 

Sue


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Having thought a bit more,I think this guy is very disturbed and should be in a secure psychiatric unit. I agree 100% with your comments, Sue. Too much consideration is given to the offender in many caes.


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

2 questions. Will he/she have the operation before he/she is transferred? Who is going to pay for the operation, the taxpayer?


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

JBODEN said:


> 2 questions. Will he/she have the operation before he/she is transferred? Who is going to pay for the operation, the taxpayer?


My understanding is the surgery cannot be performed until he/she is "living" and filling certain criteria as a female .. therefore it cant be done until moved to a womens prison. As far who pays for it - it is available on the NHS if certain criteria are met. :ranger:


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

Suenneil said:


> My understanding is the surgery cannot be performed until he/she is "living" and filling certain criteria as a female .. therefore it cant be done until moved to a womens prison. As far who pays for it - it is available on the NHS if certain criteria are met. :ranger:


Isn't he/she Spanish? Is Spain as liberally namby-pamby as the UK?
SWMBO believes that rapists should have certain parts sawn off ..... without anaesthetic. In fact he/she can have the operation free if he/she falls into the hands of my misses {)


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Suenneil said:


> My understanding is the surgery cannot be performed until he/she is "living" and filling certain criteria as a female .. therefore it cant be done until moved to a womens prison. As far who pays for it - it is available on the NHS if certain criteria are met. :ranger:



Due to the crime and the type of crimes commited, I think he should forefeit all his rights to be a woman. Tough, he was born male and thats how it is!!!! Its a hard life!

JUo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

JBODEN said:


> Isn't he/she Spanish? Is Spain as liberally namby-pamby as the UK?
> SWMBO believes that rapists should have certain parts sawn off ..... without anaesthetic. In fact he/she can have the operation free if he/she falls into the hands of my misses {)


And while we're about it, why not cut off thieves' hands? Or amputate the feet of people who nick bikes? I was really cross when my bike was nicked, I'd have sawn off their feet with a rusty saw. 
Put out the eyes of people who steal tvs or DVD players. Car thieves should be run over by the biggest HGV available.
Enough of this kid-glove treatment. The punishment should literally fit the crime, as you suggest.
Our business premises were broken into five times in a year - capital punishment would have been too good for the little b*****s.
Oh, and by the way, Spain is actually more liberal in some respects than the UK. They actually allow SAME-SEX marriages.
Sodom and Gomorrah and a descent into a fiery pit of coals and serpents will surely be their lot!!!!
Oh sod it, I've drunk all the contents of the gin bottle...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

JBODEN said:


> 2 questions. Will he/she have the operation before he/she is transferred? Who is going to pay for the operation, the taxpayer?


In the UK in some cases, yes. 
Just as we pay to cure the diseases of smokers, drinkers, the obese who eat junk food and don't exercise, people who drive too fast, people who step off the pavement without looking,people who participate in dangerous sports, MPs' duck houses, the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, bonuses to the new RBS CEO etc etc
I should imagine that the number of people who undergo gender reassignment in the UK is in single figures - after all, it's not something you'd do on a whim.
So your -and my- tax contribution will have been negligeable.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

mrypg9 said:


> In the UK in some cases, yes.
> Just as we pay to cure the diseases of smokers, drinkers, the obese who eat junk food and don't exercise, people who drive too fast, people who step off the pavement without looking,people who participate in dangerous sports, MPs' duck houses, the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, bonuses to the new RBS CEO etc etc
> I should imagine that the number of people who undergo gender reassignment in the UK is in single figures - after all, it's not something you'd do on a whim.
> So your -and my- tax contribution will have been negligeable.



I think that as a convicted criminal, (especially that kind of conviction) he has lost his right to have non life saving surgery! 

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> I think that as a convicted criminal, (especially that kind of conviction) he has lost his right to have non life saving surgery!
> 
> Jo xxx


That's a difficult one. I think this guy is violent, dangerous and possibly criminally insane so surgery of the kind in question is probably going to do more harm than good.
But as a general rule - I'm honestly not sure. Consider this: if after a lifetime of being respectable, paying my taxes etc etc I commit a crime, let's say a serious but non-violent one, should I be refused non-life-saving surgery just because I've been convicted of a crime?
A good topic for tonight's after-dinner discussion.
Like many people, my first reaction when I read of a particularly horrendous crime or indeed any crime that involves family or friends is a violent irrational one. I usually calm down and start thinking with my brain instead of my gut, though
Although I am still incandescent with rage at the fact that the mother and partner of the two boys who savagely attacked the two lads in Yorkshire will not be charged with any offence.
Her total selfish drunken neglect of those boys turned them into feral monsters and it is probably too late to reclaim them for society.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

I've gotta be honest if I put alot of my views on society and how to deal with it on here I'd be lynched LOL.I believe in corporal punishment thats for sure, in fact that would save us a fortune in prison costs!!!

Jo xx


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2009)

jojo said:


> I've gotta be honest if I put alot of my views on society and how to deal with it on here I'd be lynched LOL.I believe in corporal punishment thats for sure, in fact that would save us a fortune in prison costs!!!
> 
> Jo xx


For these type of crimes I totally agree. Why waste money on scum like this. Sorry but it's just wrong.


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