# Ofena in Abruzzo



## Barry

There is a Google group dedicated to all things Ofenesi.
http://groups.ca/group/ofenesi?hl=en


----------



## GuidoandGillian

*Hi Barry*



Barry said:


> There is a Google group dedicated to all things Ofenesi.
> http://groups.ca/group/ofenesi?hl=en


I Barry I can't get into the website. Have tried.


----------



## Veronica

GuidoandGillian said:


> I Barry I can't get into the website. Have tried.


No the link dosnt seem to work.
Barry have you put it correctly?


----------



## Barry

*Ofena*



Veronica said:


> No the link dosnt seem to work.
> Barry have you put it correctly?


I didn't realize but it looks like you need an invitation from a member. I've talked to the group owner and everyone is welcome so anyone who is interested just pm me with contact details and I'll arrange.

Barry


----------



## Barry

*Ofena*



Barry said:


> I didn't realize but it looks like you need an invitation from a member. I've talked to the group owner and everyone is welcome so anyone who is interested just pm me with contact details and I'll arrange.
> 
> Barry


Plus the fact I can't copy an address right!


http://groups.google.ca/group/ofenesi?hl=en


----------



## maisie21

Barry said:


> Plus the fact I can't copy an address right!
> 
> 
> http://groups.google.ca/group/ofenesi?hl=en


Hi Barry 
I have also tried accessing that site without any luck.
Judy


----------



## Barry

maisie21 said:


> Hi Barry
> I have also tried accessing that site without any luck.
> Judy


It still works. Did you sign in to your account first?


----------



## the duncs

*More Ofena*

Hi all.
We are looking at a purchase in Ofena. We will be visiting to tkae a look in July 2011. Would be nice to get an expat view of Ofena. Also some obvious questions:
What are the chief (negative) issues/pitfalls you've found with buying?
Anybody used housearounditaly ? Trustworthy?
Any recommendations for local solicitors?
<snip>
Any Ofenites that would be interested in meeting for a coffee when we are there?
cheers
Andy & Katy (NZ)


----------



## Barry

the duncs said:


> Hi all.
> We are looking at a purchase in Ofena. We will be visiting to tkae a look in July 2011. Would be nice to get an expat view of Ofena. Also some obvious questions:
> What are the chief (negative) issues/pitfalls you've found with buying?
> Anybody used housearounditaly ? Trustworthy?
> Any recommendations for local solicitors?
> Anybody have a house they would like to rent for a couple of weeks in July?
> 
> Any Ofenites that would be interested in meeting for a coffee when we are there?
> cheers
> Andy & Katy (NZ)


Why Ofena? You realize it's in an earthquake zone so great care must be taken when purchasing to ensure the house is up to code or you are willing to spend the money to bring it up to code. Housearounditaly seem to know what they are doing but their execution leaves much to be desired. You could save a lot of money and probably get a better deal by working with a local to find a place. You don't need a lawyer as the legalities are handled by a notary. Buying is fairly straight forward but the process can take a bit of time. Check some of the old posts on this forum under Ofena to get a sense of some of the pitfalls. Sent me a private message and I will give you some contacts for locals and expats!

Barry


----------



## the duncs

Barry said:


> Why Ofena? You realize it's in an earthquake zone so great care must be taken when purchasing to ensure the house is up to code or you are willing to spend the money to bring it up to code. Housearounditaly seem to know what they are doing but their execution leaves much to be desired. You could save a lot of money and probably get a better deal by working with a local to find a place. You don't need a lawyer as the legalities are handled by a notary. Buying is fairly straight forward but the process can take a bit of time. Check some of the old posts on this forum under Ofena to get a sense of some of the pitfalls. Sent me a private message and I will give you some contacts for locals and expats!
> 
> Barry


Thanks Barry.
Can't find how to send a private message. Can you send one to me so that I can reply? Thanks
Andy


----------



## pudd 2

why ofena there are a lot better safer places to buy a house in abruzzo a lot of agent are pushing ofena to get shot of propertys , if you buy a place it whil take for ever to get it repaired and cost a fortune to bring it up to code . ask somone who has bought threre before the eartqake if they would buy again and you will get your answer not the one you want perhaps . go explore abruzzo the are a lot better areas which are not dying as aquila is at the moment


----------



## the duncs

pudd 2 said:


> why ofena there are a lot better safer places to buy a house in abruzzo a lot of agent are pushing ofena to get shot of propertys , if you buy a place it whil take for ever to get it repaired and cost a fortune to bring it up to code . ask somone who has bought threre before the eartqake if they would buy again and you will get your answer not the one you want perhaps . go explore abruzzo the are a lot better areas which are not dying as aquila is at the moment


Okay - starting to get the message! The research I had done indicated that Ofena wasn't hit too badly and it isn't on the list of towns with significant damage as are many villages to the south and east of Aquila. I am an Engineer, so probably not as daunted, however no point in unnecessarily buying into a problem.
I was looking for something small, with character, in need of renovation, and cheap. I've got three weeks in Abruzzo in July, but any narrowing down I can do now is good. Any suggestions on a circuit to explore?


----------



## flawed

the duncs said:


> Thanks Barry.
> Can't find how to send a private message. Can you send one to me so that I can reply? Thanks
> Andy



Click on the person’s name, like I am flawed, then it comes up with some options, pick profile, and then send message is in the options. 


The old thread was shut down, "moving to Ofena", but you can still read the old posts. 
Ofena was one of nearly 50 towns affected by the earthquake in La Aquila. Houses around Italy is a fraction of the size it was when we bought in March 2009 as the earthquake killed business 
A lot of property is still on the market that we looked at back in 2008. We bought through houses around Italy, no real problems. I would use someone other than Romolo for a building report though. We didn't have a lot of damage and payed to fix it ourselves. Some people are still waiting on permission and funding. 
I think I read somewhere that their fees are higher. Our house was 53000 Euro but cost something like 64500.00 all up with fees and taxes. 
We love our place, it has heaps of potential, seems basically sound and we have a big garden. We are looking forward to living there. Ofena is a quiet town. Main action is at the bar and Stephania makes great pasta and antipasto. we are close to the alimentari and there is fruit and veg truck, a fish man, and a guy that sells cheese antipasto pasta oil etc. also a lavendarie truck which comes regularly. We shop in San Pio, at Coal or go to Pescara to Auchan. Bus service is a mystery still. I think there is one in the morning and one in the afternoon. If you can get to the main road (about 5klms) there is a bus roughly hourly. That is my main complaint, as I wish the public transport was better. I think Capestrano is better serviced. Ofena is at around 500 metres I think, so while it snows there it doesn't hang around. We use bottled gas and kero for heating. Summer can be really hot, at times. The Tirino river is beautiful and runs through the valley, there is also spring fed lake. 
It is about 30mins to LAquila and 50 to the beach in Pescara and about 2 hrs 15 to Rome. There is quite an expat community in Ofena, I have met some lovely people and I am sure they will help you find out more. 
Our local contact there is Gianni Mariani he is a lovely man, who has assisted us in so many ways. He lives in Carrufo, and runs a B&B 

I have met Pam and Tony, and Gil and Guy from England. Barry and Gerta from Canada and a nice young couple in the film and television industry from the UK.. Judy and her husband are planning to move over in October this year. There are heaps of others, Mia and her sister from Finland, Claire and her husband from France, Bruce from the US. You will find them on moving to Ofena. 

Barry is right about being careful about what you buy as some property appears to be ok but adjoins other property that is damaged, which makes it unliveable. 
Pam put up a link to an article about the earthquake damage and the reason some buildings were so damaged. Building codes have been tightened since the earthquake and everything has to be approved by the commune. 

Wish you all the best with your search
Lynda


----------



## Barry

the duncs said:


> Okay - starting to get the message! The research I had done indicated that Ofena wasn't hit too badly and it isn't on the list of towns with significant damage as are many villages to the south and east of Aquila. I am an Engineer, so probably not as daunted, however no point in unnecessarily buying into a problem.
> I was looking for something small, with character, in need of renovation, and cheap. I've got three weeks in Abruzzo in July, but any narrowing down I can do now is good. Any suggestions on a circuit to explore?


If your going in with your eyes open and are willing to take on the work then Ofena or Carrufo or Villa Santa Lucia would be ideal. You should be able to get almost any type of property at a good price.


----------



## pudd 2

the duncs said:


> Okay - starting to get the message! The research I had done indicated that Ofena wasn't hit too badly and it isn't on the list of towns with significant damage as are many villages to the south and east of Aquila. I am an Engineer, so probably not as daunted, however no point in unnecessarily buying into a problem.
> I was looking for something small, with character, in need of renovation, and cheap. I've got three weeks in Abruzzo in July, but any narrowing down I can do now is good. Any suggestions on a circuit to explore?


hi iam not biased against ofena and area ,but ihave had two freands who bought in that area against my avise both have lost their houses and wont be compensated as they are not residents , anorther freand bought a house nearby before the quake and is still waiting to get his proget done as AQ is snowed under with paper work and residents take first place and most of the trades men are tyed up fixing the residents houses . If i was to make a sugestion where to start your serch i would say in the center of the chieti region near the town of Chieti , it is one and a halve hours to each north and south border of abruzzo . AS abruzzo is midle of the road to italy chieti is the midle of the road to abruzzo , both in location and road structure hospitals airport sea port we have work here so its alving area the italians buy houses here not just english and americans , ulike AQ were the young are leaving the villages , this is why houses are so cheap there, there is always a reason for cheap houses , i better stop now before i get atacked by AQ IF you are interestrd i know of house for rent in this area not mine i might add i hope some of this makes sense and dosent seem to biased


----------



## the duncs

pudd 2 said:


> hi iam not biased against ofena and area ,but ihave had two freands who bought in that area against my avise both have lost their houses and wont be compensated as they are not residents , anorther freand bought a house nearby before the quake and is still waiting to get his proget done as AQ is snowed under with paper work and residents take first place and most of the trades men are tyed up fixing the residents houses . If i was to make a sugestion where to start your serch i would say in the center of the chieti region near the town of Chieti , it is one and a halve hours to each north and south border of abruzzo . AS abruzzo is midle of the road to italy chieti is the midle of the road to abruzzo , both in location and road structure hospitals airport sea port we have work here so its alving area the italians buy houses here not just english and americans , ulike AQ were the young are leaving the villages , this is why houses are so cheap there, there is always a reason for cheap houses , i better stop now before i get atacked by AQ IF you are interestrd i know of house for rent in this area not mine i might add i hope some of this makes sense and dosent seem to biased


Thanks for this. It is really good to get a few opinions. I shall take a look at Chieti. I am also trying to find if there is a register of damage to houses so I can look up if a building has been inspected and categorised. Any ideas?


----------



## the duncs

flawed said:


> Click on the person’s name, like I am flawed, then it comes up with some options, pick profile, and then send message is in the options.
> 
> 
> The old thread was shut down, "moving to Ofena", but you can still read the old posts.
> Ofena was one of nearly 50 towns affected by the earthquake in La Aquila. Houses around Italy is a fraction of the size it was when we bought in March 2009 as the earthquake killed business
> A lot of property is still on the market that we looked at back in 2008. We bought through houses around Italy, no real problems. I would use someone other than Romolo for a building report though. We didn't have a lot of damage and payed to fix it ourselves. Some people are still waiting on permission and funding.
> I think I read somewhere that their fees are higher. Our house was 53000 Euro but cost something like 64500.00 all up with fees and taxes.
> We love our place, it has heaps of potential, seems basically sound and we have a big garden. We are looking forward to living there. Ofena is a quiet town. Main action is at the bar and Stephania makes great pasta and antipasto. we are close to the alimentari and there is fruit and veg truck, a fish man, and a guy that sells cheese antipasto pasta oil etc. also a lavendarie truck which comes regularly. We shop in San Pio, at Coal or go to Pescara to Auchan. Bus service is a mystery still. I think there is one in the morning and one in the afternoon. If you can get to the main road (about 5klms) there is a bus roughly hourly. That is my main complaint, as I wish the public transport was better. I think Capestrano is better serviced. Ofena is at around 500 metres I think, so while it snows there it doesn't hang around. We use bottled gas and kero for heating. Summer can be really hot, at times. The Tirino river is beautiful and runs through the valley, there is also spring fed lake.
> It is about 30mins to LAquila and 50 to the beach in Pescara and about 2 hrs 15 to Rome. There is quite an expat community in Ofena, I have met some lovely people and I am sure they will help you find out more.
> Our local contact there is Gianni Mariani he is a lovely man, who has assisted us in so many ways. He lives in Carrufo, and runs a B&B
> 
> I have met Pam and Tony, and Gil and Guy from England. Barry and Gerta from Canada and a nice young couple in the film and television industry from the UK.. Judy and her husband are planning to move over in October this year. There are heaps of others, Mia and her sister from Finland, Claire and her husband from France, Bruce from the US. You will find them on moving to Ofena.
> 
> Barry is right about being careful about what you buy as some property appears to be ok but adjoins other property that is damaged, which makes it unliveable.
> Pam put up a link to an article about the earthquake damage and the reason some buildings were so damaged. Building codes have been tightened since the earthquake and everything has to be approved by the commune.
> 
> Wish you all the best with your search
> Lynda


Thanks Lynda.
By the way I think there might be a restriction on what I can do (being new to the forum) and private messages might be one. I don't have the same options come up as you do.
Maybe I should set up as a building inspector in Abruzzo help with the backlog! It seems that to encourage people back in you need a transparent system of house inspections. Just a thought.
Andy


----------



## Barry

the duncs said:


> Thanks Lynda.
> By the way I think there might be a restriction on what I can do (being new to the forum) and private messages might be one. I don't have the same options come up as you do.
> Maybe I should set up as a building inspector in Abruzzo help with the backlog! It seems that to encourage people back in you need a transparent system of house inspections. Just a thought.
> Andy


Your not a politician or a fireman so you can't do building inspections!
Actually the old houses are of very simple construction so repairs tend to be more brute force then highly technical. One other point is that being in a National Park you can't do things to the exterior of a house that isn't in keeping with historical details. Our neighbor put in a fancy new aluminum door and they came around and told him it would have to go or, as he ended up doing, covered in wood to keep it in character.


----------



## Barry

*More Problems*

Dino is keeping Rita on her toes!



PrimaDaNoi.it - I misteri di Ofena: puntellati edifici E dopo due anni dal terremoto - SPECIALE TERREMOTO - Articolo


----------



## pugwashington

the duncs said:


> Okay - starting to get the message! The research I had done indicated that Ofena wasn't hit too badly and it isn't on the list of towns with significant damage as are many villages to the south and east of Aquila. I am an Engineer, so probably not as daunted, however no point in unnecessarily buying into a problem.
> I was looking for something small, with character, in need of renovation, and cheap. I've got three weeks in Abruzzo in July, but any narrowing down I can do now is good. Any suggestions on a circuit to explore?


I bought a house in Ofena - love it even with all the problems - dont know why but I do - I like the quiteness - but houses around Italy are not very honest people I think - BUT they do have a lot of houses - dont use their surveyor.

Most of italy is a quake zone. Most of the house in these old villages are not quake safe. See other posts for what needs to be done.


----------



## flawed

i think there are some expats that are offering building services, I don't know about the building inspections. A geometra does the inspections, and will call in an engineer for specific advice as required. Pam tried very hard to get some compensation because Romolo 's report said her house was habitable, but she later found out there were significant problems. Both of us received silly building reports from Romolo that seemed redundant in descriptions, full of photos, but little substance and lots of comments about the views ! 

She still loves her house as we do, despite the problems. I have no regrets about buying there. even if the place falls down I still have land! 

Lynda


----------



## bunty16

flawed said:


> i think there are some expats that are offering building services, I don't know about the building inspections. A geometra does the inspections, and will call in an engineer for specific advice as required. Pam tried very hard to get some compensation because Romolo 's report said her house was habitable, but she later found out there were significant problems. Both of us received silly building reports from Romolo that seemed redundant in descriptions, full of photos, but little substance and lots of comments about the views !
> 
> She still loves her house as we do, despite the problems. I have no regrets about buying there. even if the place falls down I still have land!
> 
> Lynda


Similar situation to myself, all I can say is, if thinking of buying a property from this agency (who seem fine and above board) but do get an independant geometra and may I add if furnished make an official inventory, make sure the contents are intact, before and after the sale, and be very carefull who you take on to do your building work. Beware of the smiling englishman. Ask the locals, watch who they are employing, compare prices, do not pay london prices. Nuff said.


----------



## italy

trusting a notary without legal representation is unless you have a full knowledge of Italian law and can check a property yourself unwise to an extent that i would suggest that anyone buying a property who thinks that when they sign the final act without it all being checked would never be able to be sure that they have full rights to the property ... because the notary for sure does not do this.. they rubber stamp documents that are presented to them

for instance they do not check that the property is not subject to debts that have not been registered by the time of the sale.. so you could buy a property that is not owned by the owner but by a debt company... they do not check the building against plans.. but just the paper plans.. there are so many loopholes and ways for italian sellers to skip details that it would be foolish in my mind to follow the above advice without some professional support

i would avoid all so called property expert law firms from the uk/italian sort of quick check system and get someone local.. but they are expensive.. 

to realy do things the Italian way.. and virtually no one in italy buys a property without one, for sure they do not rely on a notary.. is to get your own geometra.. not one from the estate agent.. your own independent geometra.. who is wise to the tricks and problems in property purchases..

thats my thought..

the Notary is a universally despised caste here immune from responsibility under the law.. ie as part of the system they are protected against not checking anything on your sale to protect you as they are unaccountable and know it.. it would be dangerous without personally knowing the notary to rely on one...


----------



## bunty16

pudd 2 said:


> hi iam not biased against ofena and area ,but ihave had two freands who bought in that area against my avise both have lost their houses and wont be compensated as they are not residents , anorther freand bought a house nearby before the quake and is still waiting to get his proget done as AQ is snowed under with paper work and residents take first place and most of the trades men are tyed up fixing the residents houses . If i was to make a sugestion where to start your serch i would say in the center of the chieti region near the town of Chieti , it is one and a halve hours to each north and south border of abruzzo . AS abruzzo is midle of the road to italy chieti is the midle of the road to abruzzo , both in location and road structure hospitals airport sea port we have work here so its alving area the italians buy houses here not just english and americans , ulike AQ were the young are leaving the villages , this is why houses are so cheap there, there is always a reason for cheap houses , i better stop now before i get atacked by AQ IF you are interestrd i know of house for rent in this area not mine i might add i hope some of this makes sense and dosent seem to biased


Quite shocked people have lost their houses due to being non residents, I know of non residents that are getting compensation 100% exterior, 80% interior.


----------



## josephdemeyer

*ofena*



flawed said:


> i think there are some expats that are offering building services, I don't know about the building inspections. A geometra does the inspections, and will call in an engineer for specific advice as required. Pam tried very hard to get some compensation because Romolo 's report said her house was habitable, but she later found out there were significant problems. Both of us received silly building reports from Romolo that seemed redundant in descriptions, full of photos, but little substance and lots of comments about the views !
> 
> She still loves her house as we do, despite the problems. I have no regrets about buying there. even if the place falls down I still have land!
> 
> Lynda


I am quite pleased with the recent discussions re. Ofena...As far as "trust" issues are concerned: it all depends on your own ability and attitude to establish a trustworthy relationship with the Italian people you will be/are dealing with..As has been expressed here before: the caution about trust is reciprocal..Many hard working real estate/ and other professional people here have been getting the run around treatment by foreigners (driving around to show places at their own expense: gas is not cheap there) who expect to get the least expensive but best deals "up for grabs"...It just does not work that way . Abruzzini are a proud people, with a long history- going back to the Romans, if not later- dealing with foreign "visitors"...Essential is that you show a willingness to include local people in your plans...That way you also assure that they will protect their reputation among themselves. Ofena is a lovely town: relatively mild climate all year round, always in the sun; and if too much for north europeans, get a good umbrella...It is also quiet, with a nice central cafe, if you want to meet the expats...who essentially prefer their privacy, but are mostly open to meet you when you have constructive ideas and actions to contribute to the cultural activities in town...Relatively earthquake damage free..and supportive people when you need assistance (provided you have made the genuine effort to seek them!) Centrally located re. all the best Abruzzo has to offer: history; sports: para-sailing; skiing; hiking; kayaking; motoring (was once part of the Mille Miglia...); great food and wines; towards the east: beaches; towards the west: Rome (all within 1 to 2 hours...) Vee and I are always open to welcome you to this little gem of a town...


----------



## pugwashington

bunty16 said:


> Quite shocked people have lost their houses due to being non residents, I know of non residents that are getting compensation 100% exterior, 80% interior.


I dont believe that anyone should loose their homes through being a non resedent. As far as I am aware everyone is entitled to some compensation. There are some villages that sustained damage to properties that are not in the approved list - however, the mayors in those communes are fighting very hard to be included. A friend of mine has this problem BUT he has his home through a mortage and theoretically the mortage providers insurance company shoud have to pay compensation for damages in those cases. I believe he has a lawer activily persuing this.


----------



## pugwashington

josephdemeyer said:


> I am quite pleased with the recent discussions re. Ofena...As far as "trust" issues are concerned: it all depends on your own ability and attitude to establish a trustworthy relationship with the Italian people you will be/are dealing with..As has been expressed here before: the caution about trust is reciprocal..Many hard working real estate/ and other professional people here have been getting the run around treatment by foreigners (driving around to show places at their own expense: gas is not cheap there) who expect to get the least expensive but best deals "up for grabs"...It just does not work that way . Abruzzini are a proud people, with a long history- going back to the Romans, if not later- dealing with foreign "visitors"...Essential is that you show a willingness to include local people in your plans...That way you also assure that they will protect their reputation among themselves. Ofena is a lovely town: relatively mild climate all year round, always in the sun; and if too much for north europeans, get a good umbrella...It is also quiet, with a nice central cafe, if you want to meet the expats...who essentially prefer their privacy, but are mostly open to meet you when you have constructive ideas and actions to contribute to the cultural activities in town...Relatively earthquake damage free..and supportive people when you need assistance (provided you have made the genuine effort to seek them!) Centrally located re. all the best Abruzzo has to offer: history; sports: para-sailing; skiing; hiking; kayaking; motoring (was once part of the Mille Miglia...); great food and wines; towards the east: beaches; towards the west: Rome (all within 1 to 2 hours...) Vee and I are always open to welcome you to this little gem of a town...


there is an expat offering help - Judy fell foul of him. Gianni told me tales of his living in other peoples homes without their knowledge. Part of the Candida HAI mafia. I dont know the ins and outs of it but Judy certainly was not happy with what happened in her house. In part I think it is people who do not know what they are doing thinking they can be project managers and make a living. 

I would also agree with the advice re notaries after what I heard from Clair. My experience was he wanted paying in cash and pocketed a large sum tax free which did not impress me. I still dont know if the property has been registered with the land registery or how I find out - task for next visit. Clairs notary same as mine and yours I suspect - tried to get several thousand pounds out of her after the event and tried various underhand means to do so. she felt he was unjustified in wanting the money. he has however found debts against many properties recommended by HAI agents so he has some good sides and is not all bad. 

One word of caution re buying in Italy if you find that when you get to the notaries office to sign the sellers try to up the price thinking you have gone to so much effort to get there they can get away with putting the sqeeze on - walk out. it happened to a freind of mine where one of the sellers wanted a 3000 eu fee for coming over from Rome to sign the documents. Turned out he was a relative of the agent. So who knows what was going on there. same thing if they try to up the price after you make a verbal agreement to buy.


----------



## bunty16

I agree re HAI 'people attached to their agency, see strange things and some people who live far away exploited by 'extra bookings' by so called caretakers/managers. Can't fault the girls in the office though, my experience went ok with sellers and notary, and my neighbours good friends of theirs, so I knew they were above board, however, when buying the process is strange some money going over the table, some under!!!!! but that is how it is, you have to be quite brave and keep your wits about you and hope for the best, if anyone cannot stomach this process it's best not to bother, when all goes well though, you have a beautiful home and at a great price.


----------



## Barry

pugwashington said:


> there is an expat offering help - Judy fell foul of him. Gianni told me tales of his living in other peoples homes without their knowledge. Part of the Candida HAI mafia. I dont know the ins and outs of it but Judy certainly was not happy with what happened in her house. In part I think it is people who do not know what they are doing thinking they can be project managers and make a living.
> 
> I would also agree with the advice re notaries after what I heard from Clair. My experience was he wanted paying in cash and pocketed a large sum tax free which did not impress me. I still dont know if the property has been registered with the land registery or how I find out - task for next visit. Clairs notary same as mine and yours I suspect - tried to get several thousand pounds out of her after the event and tried various underhand means to do so. she felt he was unjustified in wanting the money. he has however found debts against many properties recommended by HAI agents so he has some good sides and is not all bad.
> 
> One word of caution re buying in Italy if you find that when you get to the notaries office to sign the sellers try to up the price thinking you have gone to so much effort to get there they can get away with putting the sqeeze on - walk out. it happened to a freind of mine where one of the sellers wanted a 3000 eu fee for coming over from Rome to sign the documents. Turned out he was a relative of the agent. So who knows what was going on there. same thing if they try to up the price after you make a verbal agreement to buy.


Pam, you can check on line if your property has been registered in your name. I use Home On Line, la burocrazia online facile e veloce which is a registry office in Milan. It costs 15 euro but they usually email it to you in a couple of hours. I was a bit worried so checked ours and we are the registered owners although they have my wife being born in the "low countries" ie Holland which seemed a strange way of putting it. We got an agreement form HAI on their fee before we started the process. The notary fee is set by law as is the tax so there should be no surprises there. If the seller tries to back out or change the price after the offer agreement has been signed they have to return any deposit or monies you advanced them by law.
It's actually pretty straight forward to purchase in Italy as long as you research the process yourself (don't trust the real estate firm to look after your interests).
The condition of the house is another matter and if you are worried about it then and independent structural engineer is your best bet. Given that the cost of a house in Ofena or Carrufo wouldn't even buy an empty building lot here in Calgary and that a lot of the houses sell for less than we pay for a pickup truck you shouldn't be expecting to much in the way of modern construction when you buy.


----------



## pugwashington

Barry said:


> Pam, you can check on line if your property has been registered in your name. I use Home On Line, la burocrazia online facile e veloce which is a registry office in Milan. It costs 15 euro but they usually email it to you in a couple of hours. I was a bit worried so checked ours and we are the registered owners although they have my wife being born in the "low countries" ie Holland which seemed a strange way of putting it. We got an agreement form HAI on their fee before we started the process. The notary fee is set by law as is the tax so there should be no surprises there. If the seller tries to back out or change the price after the offer agreement has been signed they have to return any deposit or monies you advanced them by law.
> It's actually pretty straight forward to purchase in Italy as long as you research the process yourself (don't trust the real estate firm to look after your interests).
> The condition of the house is another matter and if you are worried about it then and independent structural engineer is your best bet. Given that the cost of a house in Ofena or Carrufo wouldn't even buy an empty building lot here in Calgary and that a lot of the houses sell for less than we pay for a pickup truck you shouldn't be expecting to much in the way of modern construction when you buy.


Thanks for the link will check it out. 

I know what you are saying about fees and not being able to back out - it should work in theory - but still did not stop them from trying or for the notary wanting cash payment. I paid for a survey asking for details of work needed to make it safe amoungst other things - but got a very negligent survey - conservative estimate 90000 eu now to pay to get house i thought I had bought. Surveyors insurance although they admit negligence want to pay less than a third due to some wierd calculation they do re final value of house and purchase cost. So lawyer now needed. Same the world over. I thought if i used a registered surveyor that in the event i was faced with extra costs I would be covered - nice in theory different in practice. i also had quake insurance again - nice in theory different in practice - UK company now aguing about that too. 

Pam

Pam


----------



## Barry

pugwashington said:


> Thanks for the link will check it out.
> 
> I know what you are saying about fees and not being able to back out - it should work in theory - but still did not stop them from trying or for the notary wanting cash payment. I paid for a survey asking for details of work needed to make it safe amoungst other things - but got a very negligent survey - conservative estimate 90000 eu now to pay to get house i thought I had bought. Surveyors insurance although they admit negligence want to pay less than a third due to some wierd calculation they do re final value of house and purchase cost. So lawyer now needed. Same the world over. I thought if i used a registered surveyor that in the event i was faced with extra costs I would be covered - nice in theory different in practice. i also had quake insurance again - nice in theory different in practice - UK company now aguing about that too.
> 
> Pam
> 
> Pam


Yes I know what you mean. It is always easier in hindsight to know how to do something.
When you stop to think about it though these houses are not really worth anything. They were built by people like my great grandfather who would have had his brothers and cousins help him put it up using the rocks from their fields and wood from the forest and probably no purchased material at all. It was all they could afford to do and if they had money they would have built something a lot better. I look at the costs they are talking about to repair them and can't help wondering if it would be a lot cheaper to knock them down and rebuild with the same methods and incorporating proper reinforcing to withstand earthquakes. I'am not an expert on designing for earthquakes but I have worked for a geotechnical and materials testing firm all my life and cannot see how chaining and pouring a concrete collar around the wall makes the structure significantly more earthquake resistent. It would take major steel reinforcing within the walls both horizontally and vertically. Major reinforcing and bracing around all windows and doors and probably proper foundations to get an order of magnitude improvement in the buildings ability to survive. 
Are you part of an Aggregato?


----------



## Barry

I see you are part of Aggregato 026. Have you submitted your project yet? Are they proposing a rebuild?


----------



## pugwashington

Barry said:


> I see you are part of Aggregato 026. Have you submitted your project yet? Are they proposing a rebuild?


No still waiting. See http://www.istructe.org/eefit/files/EEFIT web report on Aquila Italy Earthquake.pdf for why they are recommending the work on the concrete collar and various other work. Seems the houses that had this kind of work done survived but ones without didnt - for sure they wont survive a japanese type quake but probably will survive ones typical of the area. 

My house was built by a builder - one reason I bought it - it looked as if he cared - the other idots who had the house after him errected the 'tower' that has made my house cat e. also he punched holes in gable ends therby weakening some parts of the house. Otherwise its pretty good dimensions length 3x the width (ideal for earthquake safety), Not too tall - good for quake safety - built mostly on rock. I think he knew what he was doing for the times he lived in. 

My worry is my neighbour who has tons of money - thinks he knows everything - poohood me when I wanted to get earthquake safety stuff done on the house first - wont listen to anything anyone says that isnt what he wants to hear gets to appoint the architect and engineer. They do what he asks - so far they have put in bigger windows into the gabel ends of his house, (illegally) wacked another great hole into another supporting wall. (given the type of build even putting in an airconditioning vent into those walls seriously weakens it). His architect and engineer failed to notice huge cracks in my walls that his bathroom extension is resting on. failed to notice huge crack from top to bottom in one of his gabel ends, failed to notice that his incredibly heavey and expensive marbe staircase is coming through walls that are so thin into my kitchen - all at very weak spot in house and a hot spot for earthquake. His house now has huge damage to it. They wont do the work that I have been told by another engineer needs to be done as they would loose face. namely removing his 2000 eu bathroom extension from illegally built room in corner of gable end of his house and mine. Once they did eventually see what I was going on about - I have to say they did look shocked - but I do worry that I am not there watching everything like a hawk. They do now occasionaly listen to me as opposed to dismissing me as someone who is an idiot. However have decided not to get stressed but to eventually get an engineer i do trust to look over their plans when they do finally have a project. Wont go down well but I do need to be reassured that their proposals are safe. I know there are many ways to do things and that different people have different ideas and that costs always come into it. I do think though that the costs that are being quoted it would be better to rebuild from the start and have new building that look like the old. 

Pam


----------



## flawed

pugwashington said:


> there is an expat offering help - Judy fell foul of him. Gianni told me tales of his living in other peoples homes without their knowledge. Part of the Candida HAI mafia. I dont know the ins and outs of it but Judy certainly was not happy with what happened in her house. In part I think it is people who do not know what they are doing thinking they can be project managers and make a living.
> 
> I would also agree with the advice re notaries after what I heard from Clair. My experience was he wanted paying in cash and pocketed a large sum tax free which did not impress me. I still dont know if the property has been registered with the land registery or how I find out - task for next visit. Clairs notary same as mine and yours I suspect - tried to get several thousand pounds out of her after the event and tried various underhand means to do so. she felt he was unjustified in wanting the money. he has however found debts against many properties recommended by HAI agents so he has some good sides and is not all bad.
> 
> One word of caution re buying in Italy if you find that when you get to the notaries office to sign the sellers try to up the price thinking you have gone to so much effort to get there they can get away with putting the sqeeze on - walk out. it happened to a freind of mine where one of the sellers wanted a 3000 eu fee for coming over from Rome to sign the documents. Turned out he was a relative of the agent. So who knows what was going on there. same thing if they try to up the price after you make a verbal agreement to buy.


Hey Pam same deal with us, We were given an outline by HAI of how we were to pay which included a large cash sum which seemed to get divided up at the table. 
I must check with the notary when we are there. He said he had to send the deed away to register, and that it would come back to him to hold, because he said the government would prefer he held it, and acted as a point of contact. I have been meaning to chase this up. You have me worried now!


----------



## Barry

*Lamb*

Don't eat the lamb or sheep! 
They found Encefalopatie Spongifomi in one of Domenico Mucciante's sheep.


----------



## the duncs

flawed said:


> Hey Pam same deal with us, We were given an outline by HAI of how we were to pay which included a large cash sum which seemed to get divided up at the table.
> I must check with the notary when we are there. He said he had to send the deed away to register, and that it would come back to him to hold, because he said the government would prefer he held it, and acted as a point of contact. I have been meaning to chase this up. You have me worried now!


Jeeze this sounds more and more dodgey by the minute. We have now booked to come over in July to look for a renovation project. Having been warned of buying in Ofena we are broadening the net and staying nearer Chieti for a week.
I am still torn by conflicting thoughts: the shear dodgeyness of almost the whole purchase system & the earthquake damage classification - and on the other side me being in probably a much better position than most (Chartered Engineer and I have built a couple of houses).
I guess I'll have to get a feel for things when over there. Sounds like we need a 'trust' network where you can name the individuals that are good or bad. Sounds like it could be a lopsided list!
Andy


----------



## italy

part of the problem with property searches are forums.. is there a plural like fori... because they are peopled with "advice" which is often trusted because its in our native language it seems safer to follow.. to be honest this forum has a very good system that means you have to have a paid subscription to add your business.. other forums have no such system so that either casual advice.. about knowing a house for sale and avoid estate agents but ask me.. or even scouts for various big agencies posting as private individuals.. it all happens and how you work out who is genuine or not is difficult if not impossible..

as has been revealed before with someone who thought they could make my thoughts on buying or not.. which areas to look at .. or whatever.. its obvious that i live in abruzzo and have some interest in property.. but i have also chosen not to try and promote what i do but offer advice which to my mind might well be construed as negative but i choose to see it as a balance against others that choose a route of ignoring all the common knowledge here in Italy about certain areas and certain activities to sort of convince people that life in Italy.. in my case Abruzzo is heaven on earth..

its not true and my wish would be that papers like il centro.. were published in English so that people could get a good feel for a place and its ups and downs to make a more informed choice..

i am something of a sponge as regards getting to grips with the problems of living in Abruzzo although its also difficult to follow all problems.. i use facebook a lot.. another very good source for abruzzo related problems as many of the italian focus groups or protesters use it and you learn an awful lot about local problems.. its funny here that you can live a few kms away from a problem and never hear of it...

the L'Aquila earthquake revealed in a tragic and well published way the truth that was denied by the plethora of agencies selling in the L'Aquila province that there was a consideration in purchasing there that by law registered estate agents have to inform clients of..the seismic risks.. many of these agencies were not even registered or legally allowed to conduct house sales.. 

they are now crawling back onto the internet as memories fade and they will sell anything and everything to unsuspecting buyers explaining away the cheap property as the famous phrase " its undiscoverd " is brought to the fore..as a reason to rush in and buy before the hoards arrive... nothing in any european country is secret if its not got a standard market price there is always a reason.. generally bad for your health and wallet...

i see you mention Chieti and my thoughts on this are that many years ago property was being sold there with denials of a seismic risk... and since L'Aquila this has been played on even more.. however should you buy a property there and then find out that its zoned as seismic class 1 .. the most dangerous areas.. then you do have recourse via the courts of suing the agency who even if verbally denying the existence of a seismic problem miss-old you a property.. i say this because it doesnt matter what i say people then start denying and or attacking my words because they have an interest in denying truth...

so all comunes if you look at wiki in italian list there seismic ratings.. you have to swithch to the italian version and many of the areas popular with foriegn buyers who often choose based on cheap property are in these zones as the market price here is governed by knowledge of problems ..nothing to do with being undiscovered ..but market forces based on sales to italians

from more obvious forces to do with earthquake risks to less well known chemical pollutions such as Bussi and the largest chemical waste dump in Italy to be found polluting all the drinking water and the surrounding areas of the pescara valley... many ex pats say prices are low due to the fact that Italians will not buy in the hills or remote areas.. a fallacy.. Italians do buy lots of rural properties 100 times more involved than non italians... many have city homes and rural retreats much like other countries in europe and consider how close we are to Rome .. Teramo is just 150 km from the capital.. bologna just a few hours drive.. many people from the north.. we have clients from milan that are chooisng to escape city life for their children to live a more relaxed life here in abruzzo because it has good connections and good prices.. often maintaining their work in the city.. look at all the flights from pescara milan..

these buyers are very knowledgeable often having an Abruzzo background in their families.. they are more fussy than non italian buyers and no one can pull the wool over their eyes because they have easy access to the knowledge base that seems so hard for non italians to use.. and they buy in all areas.. from coast to mountains but with care over where they are spending their money and locating their family in the sense that they are not about to buy a property in Abruzzo that they know cannot be re-sold if in the future plans go wrong.. or move from a polluted city to an area that has even higher pollution.. or buy a property in a red zoned area because it has high risk of flooding.. or one where there is a significantly higher risk of seismic activity.. the zone 1 areas.. 

if using an agency to purchase wherever.. the thing to ask before even booking a visit is a copy of the plans of the house, a vision of the ownership... visura catastale.. it will list owners and verification in writing from the agency that they have a mandate, a contract that will give them the right to sell.. ask for that on each property you see on the internet and you will soon narrow down your choices because about 90 % of them will have no rights to sell or the property will have not been for ale with them or anyone else.. 

this is so much easier than spending days on wasted visits that you will be taken on by many agencies that sometimes even charge you for the privilege.. it will mean that a lot of your emails will remain unanswered because they are looking for sheep not clients that will accept all they are told or visit abruzzo on a promise.. how many times have you chosen properties to vist and when you arrive in Abruzzo not been shown one of the advertised properties.. for some feeble excuse.. and been taken to several others which do not meet your needs..

anyway .. please feel free to ask more questions.. i understand italian property law i believe extremely well ... i work with it every day.. and i work with many other italian agencies and see how they work .. which at first surprised me.. because they are efficient and dare i say almost honest by comparison to so many of the rogue agencies that are cited here..

there are also other things which make me cringe.. there are no longer any fixed charges for agencies to insist on.. we are free to charge what we want.. we often have fees of 1 % charged to people with have mandates to sell with and the buyers fee is negotiable too based on each property and the amount of work that has o be done to verify the property for the sale.. in fact if you dispute an agencies right to their payment it will be decided in an arbitration court and at that stage it will be set by the camber of commerce figures which will be between 2 and 3 per cent.. thats the only fixed figure that in disputes that the entitlement figure if the agency wins..


----------



## pugwashington

the duncs said:


> Jeeze this sounds more and more dodgey by the minute. We have now booked to come over in July to look for a renovation project. Having been warned of buying in Ofena we are broadening the net and staying nearer Chieti for a week.
> I am still torn by conflicting thoughts: the shear dodgeyness of almost the whole purchase system & the earthquake damage classification - and on the other side me being in probably a much better position than most (Chartered Engineer and I have built a couple of houses).
> I guess I'll have to get a feel for things when over there. Sounds like we need a 'trust' network where you can name the individuals that are good or bad. Sounds like it could be a lopsided list!
> Andy


I would still have a good look all around the area. Including Ofena. get a feel for where places are what you like doing what you need etc etc. A shop and a bar close to hand for us anyway was important as well as post office. We didnt mind a 1 hour hike to the beach - they are not much fun for me in the summer but I also wanted to be not too far away from some civilisation. 

All houses are a renovation projects - just that some look more that way than others. There is a nice little house - no roof for sale in Ofena for 25,000 eu for which an offer of 12,000 eu would be the appropriate price being sold by arch con woman candida through houses around italy - worh looking at. At least with that house you can see clearly what needs doing. Otherwise you think you have bought an OK house but have not. If Interested I could contact Gianni for you and he might take you around as opposed to candida - but even he is over optimistic/ head in sand re costs and work needing to be done. 

Remember that when you buy a house there is the purchase price as well as the sellars commission for you to pay as well as the owners fees to the sellers- hence all the cash you hand over. they dont tell you that. You hand over the cash so they dont pay taxes. So I offered 53,000 for my house but I actually paid 49000 - the rest was the fees for the agency payable by the owners as well as a cash incentive for one of the owners to sell. I was anoyed as they hadnt told me this until last min. 

When buying also think forest fire risk, falling off a cliff risk/mud slide risk/ earthquake risk etc etc. is it built on rock or soil? How close to woodland is it? Has it got water etc? Forest fires are a big risk in some areas. Just make you choices with your eyes open. Look for cracks large and small dont believe a word anyone says and get a good engineer to look at it before you buy. I found one in chiete by google.

pam


----------



## italy

see there you go.. thats a prime example of wrong and totally illegal process.. when you purchase a property in Italy toady you have to sign within the notary act if you paid for any agency service.. its no an optional thing the declaration if made falsely.. means that should it be found not to be true that you could be fined to the extent that you would loose your house that you had just bought..

it is illegal here for any agent that is registered to accept any payment in cash in regards a house sale and no agent that is working within the law here will accept cash it has to be by an assigned check a copy of which is attached to the final act... 

to my mind this lack of knowledge of new laws and acceptable ways of doing things here is the cause of a lot of problems for people buying.. they accept these tales that have no meaning in the real Italy and if practised are significant elements that suggest the people either do not know what they are doing or are criminals that not only risk problems for themselves via the agenzia delle entrata... but also place their clienst at risk..the fines for false declarations reagrding all aspects of property sales here are very high.. and there is no benefit for either the buyer the seller or the agent in declaring false information in a sale unless you are paying with your own money obtained via criminal activity.. it really is very dangerous practice and to my mind stupid...

the most costly part of any property will be the restructure.. a full restructure on a property with no roof works out at for building costs 1500 euro per sq m.. almost doubled for seimic class 1 zones.. plus vat at 20 % and geometra /architect fees of between 13 % and 20 % so say a very small 100 meter square ruin will cost you 150,000 euro to restore plus tax an added 30,000 euro plus fees between 20 and 30,000 euro... so if you add purchase price for a property as suggested above.. 12,000 you are looking at full restructure costs if it around the 100 sq meter mark..about a 2 bedroom size house of close to 200,000 now you tell me if thats a bargain ..its not and even worse at that price or even half that price if your circumstances change you would not even be able to sell it for half that..


----------



## the duncs

italy said:


> see there you go.. thats a prime example of wrong and totally illegal process.. when you purchase a property in Italy toady you have to sign within the notary act if you paid for any agency service.. its no an optional thing the declaration if made falsely.. means that should it be found not to be true that you could be fined to the extent that you would loose your house that you had just bought..
> 
> it is illegal here for any agent that is registered to accept any payment in cash in regards a house sale and no agent that is working within the law here will accept cash it has to be by an assigned check a copy of which is attached to the final act...
> 
> to my mind this lack of knowledge of new laws and acceptable ways of doing things here is the cause of a lot of problems for people buying.. they accept these tales that have no meaning in the real Italy and if practised are significant elements that suggest the people either do not know what they are doing or are criminals that not only risk problems for themselves via the agenzia delle entrata... but also place their clienst at risk..the fines for false declarations reagrding all aspects of property sales here are very high.. and there is no benefit for either the buyer the seller or the agent in declaring false information in a sale unless you are paying with your own money obtained via criminal activity.. it really is very dangerous practice and to my mind stupid...
> 
> the most costly part of any property will be the restructure.. a full restructure on a property with no roof works out at for building costs 1500 euro per sq m.. almost doubled for seimic class 1 zones.. plus vat at 20 % and geometra /architect fees of between 13 % and 20 % so say a very small 100 meter square ruin will cost you 150,000 euro to restore plus tax an added 30,000 euro plus fees between 20 and 30,000 euro... so if you add purchase price for a property as suggested above.. 12,000 you are looking at full restructure costs if it around the 100 sq meter mark..about a 2 bedroom size house of close to 200,000 now you tell me if thats a bargain ..its not and even worse at that price or even half that price if your circumstances change you would not even be able to sell it for half that..


Thanks guys. Food for thought..........


----------



## Barry

italy said:


> see there you go.. thats a prime example of wrong and totally illegal process.. when you purchase a property in Italy toady you have to sign within the notary act if you paid for any agency service.. its no an optional thing the declaration if made falsely.. means that should it be found not to be true that you could be fined to the extent that you would loose your house that you had just bought..
> 
> it is illegal here for any agent that is registered to accept any payment in cash in regards a house sale and no agent that is working within the law here will accept cash it has to be by an assigned check a copy of which is attached to the final act...
> 
> to my mind this lack of knowledge of new laws and acceptable ways of doing things here is the cause of a lot of problems for people buying.. they accept these tales that have no meaning in the real Italy and if practised are significant elements that suggest the people either do not know what they are doing or are criminals that not only risk problems for themselves via the agenzia delle entrata... but also place their clienst at risk..the fines for false declarations reagrding all aspects of property sales here are very high.. and there is no benefit for either the buyer the seller or the agent in declaring false information in a sale unless you are paying with your own money obtained via criminal activity.. it really is very dangerous practice and to my mind stupid...
> 
> the most costly part of any property will be the restructure.. a full restructure on a property with no roof works out at for building costs 1500 euro per sq m.. almost doubled for seimic class 1 zones.. plus vat at 20 % and geometra /architect fees of between 13 % and 20 % so say a very small 100 meter square ruin will cost you 150,000 euro to restore plus tax an added 30,000 euro plus fees between 20 and 30,000 euro... so if you add purchase price for a property as suggested above.. 12,000 you are looking at full restructure costs if it around the 100 sq meter mark..about a 2 bedroom size house of close to 200,000 now you tell me if thats a bargain ..its not and even worse at that price or even half that price if your circumstances change you would not even be able to sell it for half that..


That still sounds reasonable. 200,000 euro for a modern 100 square meter house is still about 25% less than you would pay in Calgary and I imagine a lot less than the cost in England or Holland. Italy is not a 3rd. world country where labor is cheap! As in all things you get what you pay for and your expectations should be geared accordingly. We paid 33,000 euro for our house , the same price I paid for our Honda Element. I don't expect the Honda to last more than 10 years and it won't be worth anything at the end and I will have no regrets. We've already had several months living in our Italian house (usually 1 month at a time) and it was money well spent. If I had spent 200,000 euro for the house then I would have expected a lot more from it but we are perfectly happy with the way it is and if it collapses in an earthquake we still have the land and can rebuild if we want to.


----------



## Veronica

Barry said:


> That still sounds reasonable. 200,000 euro for a modern 100 square meter house is still about 25% less than you would pay in Calgary and I imagine a lot less than the cost in England or Holland. Italy is not a 3rd. world country where labor is cheap! As in all things you get what you pay for and your expectations should be geared accordingly. We paid 33,000 euro for our house , the same price I paid for our Honda Element. I don't expect the Honda to last more than 10 years and it won't be worth anything at the end and I will have no regrets. We've already had several months living in our Italian house (usually 1 month at a time) and it was money well spent. If I had spent 200,000 euro for the house then I would have expected a lot more from it but we are perfectly happy with the way it is and if it collapses in an earthquake we still have the land and can rebuild if we want to.


200.000euros for a 2 bedroom 100m2 house expensive these days. 
In the Uk you will get that size house for a lot less than that and even in Cyprus where property is more expensive than the Uk you can expect to get a 120m2 house for that.


----------



## Barry

Veronica said:


> 200.000euros for a 2 bedroom 100m2 house expensive these days.
> In the Uk you will get that size house for a lot less than that and even in Cyprus where property is more expensive than the Uk you can expect to get a 120m2 house for that.


Maybe I've been mislead by the TV programs we get showing the UK house market. 
I saw one last night from I think Portsmouth. 175,000 pounds for a sort of 2 bedroom Victorian row house that was trashed inside. The repair budget was 50,000 pounds.
Also watched one from Amsterdam with an American buying a 1 bedroom apartment for $400,000. Maybe outside the cities the prices are lower?


----------



## pugwashington

italy said:


> see there you go.. thats a prime example of wrong and totally illegal process.. when you purchase a property in Italy toady you have to sign within the notary act if you paid for any agency service.. its no an optional thing the declaration if made falsely.. means that should it be found not to be true that you could be fined to the extent that you would loose your house that you had just bought..
> 
> it is illegal here for any agent that is registered to accept any payment in cash in regards a house sale and no agent that is working within the law here will accept cash it has to be by an assigned check a copy of which is attached to the final act...
> 
> to my mind this lack of knowledge of new laws and acceptable ways of doing things here is the cause of a lot of problems for people buying.. they accept these tales that have no meaning in the real Italy and if practised are significant elements that suggest the people either do not know what they are doing or are criminals that not only risk problems for themselves via the agenzia delle entrata... but also place their clienst at risk..the fines for false declarations reagrding all aspects of property sales here are very high.. and there is no benefit for either the buyer the seller or the agent in declaring false information in a sale unless you are paying with your own money obtained via criminal activity.. it really is very dangerous practice and to my mind stupid...
> 
> the most costly part of any property will be the restructure.. a full restructure on a property with no roof works out at for building costs 1500 euro per sq m.. almost doubled for seimic class 1 zones.. plus vat at 20 % and geometra /architect fees of between 13 % and 20 % so say a very small 100 meter square ruin will cost you 150,000 euro to restore plus tax an added 30,000 euro plus fees between 20 and 30,000 euro... so if you add purchase price for a property as suggested above.. 12,000 you are looking at full restructure costs if it around the 100 sq meter mark..about a 2 bedroom size house of close to 200,000 now you tell me if thats a bargain ..its not and even worse at that price or even half that price if your circumstances change you would not even be able to sell it for half that..


Yes I was annoyed but nothing I could do about it at the time - so be warned - make things clear up front. I know a lot more now and wouldnt get caught out by all the cash a second time around and is one of thereasons I say not to use HAI other than to get a feel for what you want. The biggest costs are a new roof and appropriate supports/ties. also remember you have to have any work signed off at the commune - to do that it has to be done by a qualified person. Even small projects need architects/engineer/geometra and have to be approved.


----------



## italy

barry

i can see your point.. and it is annoying when you do see people invest as you say what would be the price of a car in a property and then expect it all to happen and be rebuilt at an unrealistic price..and if that does not happen they get annoyed.. complain about agents.. complain about geometras and then say Italy is a rip off country full of cheats..

however when you buy a car the saleman try as he might cannot fool you into thinking that the car is roadworthy if there are no wheels.. and before you take it out on the road you expect to test drive and assure yourself it has at least an engine and brakes.. and thats the problem with so called agents .. selling property here.. i use so called agents purposely as those people behaving in a strictly unlawful way bring shame on us all.. and even though people will often ignore advice about how to restore and who to use and what it will cost at least at the end of it they cannot then complain if they do go there own way that they didnt know better.. well they can but you sympathy does not last that long .. 

so even though i dispute your figures.. re prices and costs.. i still do not see any value in your method of thinking for most people who cannot afford to throw such large sums of money at something which will give no return.. in fact i would call your philosophy very un american and quite unusual .. most of us think of leaving something to our children to do with as they want.. spending 200,000 for something that will give you back at max say 50-70,000 euro means a net loss of 130,000 and to be honest i think thats how most families will look at it.. and if it falls down again and has to be rebuilt then you end up with even less .. in fact you are at a negative value.. 

building land is aprox 15-20 euro per sq meter.. in remote rural areas like ofena.. habitable property in a normal condition works out between 500-750 euro per sq meter.. that means of a standard that would allow you to move in to a property with all services and structure up to standard.. most probably double glazed and centrally heated.. this is the quoted value of a villa .. the highest valued property i have put a link to the official national land registry figures for ofena.. you can do this for any comune..

so i know you are happy with how things have gone for you and your philosophy is rare .. not one i admire.. because i am a capitalist at heart.. but one i can sympathise with


----------



## pugwashington

Barry said:


> That still sounds reasonable. 200,000 euro for a modern 100 square meter house is still about 25% less than you would pay in Calgary and I imagine a lot less than the cost in England or Holland. Italy is not a 3rd. world country where labor is cheap! As in all things you get what you pay for and your expectations should be geared accordingly. We paid 33,000 euro for our house , the same price I paid for our Honda Element. I don't expect the Honda to last more than 10 years and it won't be worth anything at the end and I will have no regrets. We've already had several months living in our Italian house (usually 1 month at a time) and it was money well spent. If I had spent 200,000 euro for the house then I would have expected a lot more from it but we are perfectly happy with the way it is and if it collapses in an earthquake we still have the land and can rebuild if we want to.


I think you are right Barry - you get what you pay for and for many people all they want is a holiday home in a lovely place. many people are prepared to spend money on these old houses and do actually want to keep them because they like them not for investment. But on the otherhand you do need to be aware of the real costs if you buy into the renovation idea. I think in this region buying and then renovating is a costly option. I also see that many Italians dont do stuff themselves such as painting and basic repairs. They also prefer aliminium windows and doors - practical but an added cost - a friend of mine has lovingly stripped all her old windows and doors and they look fantastic - only cost her time. I managed to salvage my windows much to the amasement of the locals who thought I was potty but who in the end said they looked much better than my rich neighbours aliminuium ones - wether I can survive the winter with them i dont know - but I do like the original glass and the way things look through them. 

You just need to do things with your eyes open. budget for a new roof irrespective of what any agent says.
Pam


----------



## Barry

italy said:


> barry
> 
> i can see your point.. and it is annoying when you do see people invest as you say what would be the price of a car in a property and then expect it all to happen and be rebuilt at an unrealistic price..and if that does not happen they get annoyed.. complain about agents.. complain about geometras and then say Italy is a rip off country full of cheats..
> 
> however when you buy a car the saleman try as he might cannot fool you into thinking that the car is roadworthy if there are no wheels.. and before you take it out on the road you expect to test drive and assure yourself it has at least an engine and brakes.. and thats the problem with so called agents .. selling property here.. i use so called agents purposely as those people behaving in a strictly unlawful way bring shame on us all.. and even though people will often ignore advice about how to restore and who to use and what it will cost at least at the end of it they cannot then complain if they do go there own way that they didnt know better.. well they can but you sympathy does not last that long ..
> 
> so even though i dispute your figures.. re prices and costs.. i still do not see any value in your method of thinking for most people who cannot afford to throw such large sums of money at something which will give no return.. in fact i would call your philosophy very un american and quite unusual .. most of us think of leaving something to our children to do with as they want.. spending 200,000 for something that will give you back at max say 50-70,000 euro means a net loss of 130,000 and to be honest i think thats how most families will look at it.. and if it falls down again and has to be rebuilt then you end up with even less .. in fact you are at a negative value..
> 
> building land is aprox 15-20 euro per sq meter.. in remote rural areas like ofena.. habitable property in a normal condition works out between 500-750 euro per sq meter.. that means of a standard that would allow you to move in to a property with all services and structure up to standard.. most probably double glazed and centrally heated.. this is the quoted value of a villa .. the highest valued property i have put a link to the official national land registry figures for ofena.. you can do this for any comune..
> 
> so i know you are happy with how things have gone for you and your philosophy is rare .. not one i admire.. because i am a capitalist at heart.. but one i can sympathise with


Actually it is very common here for people to spend 80,000 euro on a truck and trailer or a motorhome. It's not thought of as an investment but as something that provides enjoyment. Resale value is a fraction of the original costs but that isn't it's purpose. If you want an investment there are lots of better places to buy than Italy!
For us it's family. I am related to everyone in Carrufo, Villa Santa Lucia, Ofena and Brittoli so spending 50,000 euro to be near them is no problem and in the long run it is probably cheaper than spending 100 euro a day for hotels. The others like Pam and Judy want to make Ofena their home.
I agree with your price for a reasonable liveable house. The one across from us is for sale and they are asking 58,000 euro. 2 bedroom with central heat and move in ready. The interior, furniture and appliances are all working but date from the early 1960's so you could be happy with that or remodel and spend another 25,000 updating everything. You couldn't resell it for 75,000 euro however. They are having a tough time at the current asking price. Our area is for people who want to stay or to have a permanent holiday home not for someone who wants to renovate and make a profit.


----------



## jgudorf

*Ofena*



the duncs said:


> Thanks Barry.
> Can't find how to send a private message. Can you send one to me so that I can reply? Thanks
> Andy


Hi, I own a small apartment in Ofena and despite the earthquake and some of complications, still love the area and am happy visiting there. 

I'll be there in 3 weeks time at the end of May for a week. I used House Around Italy to buy the property and was happy overall since I knew nothing about buying in Italy. Barry is correct the notary does most of the official work but it was helpful to have an Italian represent you and translate. They also "helped" with a property survey which led to nothing other than a fee, "helped" me set up an Italian bank account with an agent which cost fees and "helped" with the notary for a fee - trying at one point to get us to pay for the seller's fees as well. You have to be very careful to negotiate on your own behalf because their primary interest is getting the property sold - not getting you a good price. You should be able to get a good deal now. Our local rep from HAI was Maurizio who was very patient and helpful.

Prior to the earthquake in 2007 we paid $34,000 Euros for a small apartment which has 1 nice bedroom, 1 small bedroom, a functional bathroom and shower, functional kitchen and lounge. It is small but kind of the size of a hotel suite and perfect for visiting a week at a time. I would expect to pay much less now considering the economy, the lack of UK investors and the earthquake.


----------



## Barry

jgudorf said:


> Hi, I own a small apartment in Ofena and despite the earthquake and some of complications, still love the area and am happy visiting there.
> 
> I'll be there in 3 weeks time at the end of May for a week. I used House Around Italy to buy the property and was happy overall since I knew nothing about buying in Italy. Barry is correct the notary does most of the official work but it was helpful to have an Italian represent you and translate. They also "helped" with a property survey which led to nothing other than a fee, "helped" me set up an Italian bank account with an agent which cost fees and "helped" with the notary for a fee - trying at one point to get us to pay for the seller's fees as well. You have to be very careful to negotiate on your own behalf because their primary interest is getting the property sold - not getting you a good price. You should be able to get a good deal now. Our local rep from HAI was Maurizio who was very patient and helpful.
> 
> Prior to the earthquake in 2007 we paid $34,000 Euros for a small apartment which has 1 nice bedroom, 1 small bedroom, a functional bathroom and shower, functional kitchen and lounge. It is small but kind of the size of a hotel suite and perfect for visiting a week at a time. I would expect to pay much less now considering the economy, the lack of UK investors and the earthquake.


Wish we could go this month as well! Aiming for September hopefully. We still haven't got a bill from Enel.


----------



## sheilamarsco

*ofena*

sorry to change the theme but does anyone have information about a donkey sanctuary in ofena. thanks


----------



## Barry

I've seen donkeys on the farm down by the Capestrano Overpass but I don't know if they are a breeder or a sanctuary.


----------



## Goingtoitalia

I heard that they used the donkeys for children with autism. At least that is what the people said from HAI when I bought my house in Ofena. So I guess that it might be for profit, thinking small profit for them to raise the donkeys. The last time that I was there I didn't see all them... (that was March/April 2011)


----------



## Down the Tirrino Valley

Donkeys....... Not a sanctuary
Sorry to add a note that might not be welcome, but the donkey place at the bivio certainly sells them for meat. I saw jars or packets of donkey mortadella on sale at one of the stalls at the Navelli Fiesta last August.

It might do other things as well as that, but one seldom sees traffic going in or our there and I've never seen riders there either, (although that doesn't mean that they aren't using the donkeys for children with autism elsewhere).

Maybe HAI could clarify.... (but that's opens another theme.....)


----------



## Down the Tirrino Valley

Ofena Politics

You may be interested to know of the commune election last week, which saw a change in power in the commune. What that will mean in real terms is anyone's guess.......

The new mayor is from Ofena Unita, which had been running Ofena until 2002. (Built the swimming pool and negotiated the package with the quarrying company down at the main road, amongst other things.) They won with 225 votes against Ofena Futura's 200. (As there is now a 2-term restriction, Anna-rita Colletti could not stand as mayor again, her deputy standing in her place.) Seems that all of the elections - commune / regional / national - divide along this fairly narrow split, or at least have done over the past few years. There was a third list, which gained one single vote! I was told that this was a group of prison officers, who stand in different places every year - it seems that public officials can get one month's paid leave per year if they stand for public office, so these public-spirited souls stand anytime / anyplace they can.

Just before the election, the outgoing mayor announced a re-negotiation of the quarry agreement; not sure of how long it shall last for, but you will see posters with "E737,500" plastered around the village, this being the additional annual income for the commune. It'll be interesting to see what that'll be used for.

The new mayor - sorry, don't remember his name - used to live in L'Aquila until the earthquake..... Then moved to Avezzano. Hopefully he'll be committed and enthusiastic, but its a shame that the mayors seem to come from afar.

Let's see.


----------



## Barry

*Mayor*



Down the Tirrino Valley said:


> Ofena Politics
> 
> You may be interested to know of the commune election last week, which saw a change in power in the commune. What that will mean in real terms is anyone's guess.......
> 
> The new mayor is from Ofena Unita, which had been running Ofena until 2002. (Built the swimming pool and negotiated the package with the quarrying company down at the main road, amongst other things.) They won with 225 votes against Ofena Futura's 200. (As there is now a 2-term restriction, Anna-rita Colletti could not stand as mayor again, her deputy standing in her place.) Seems that all of the elections - commune / regional / national - divide along this fairly narrow split, or at least have done over the past few years. There was a third list, which gained one single vote! I was told that this was a group of prison officers, who stand in different places every year - it seems that public officials can get one month's paid leave per year if they stand for public office, so these public-spirited souls stand anytime / anyplace they can.
> 
> Just before the election, the outgoing mayor announced a re-negotiation of the quarry agreement; not sure of how long it shall last for, but you will see posters with "E737,500" plastered around the village, this being the additional annual income for the commune. It'll be interesting to see what that'll be used for.
> 
> The new mayor - sorry, don't remember his name - used to live in L'Aquila until the earthquake..... Then moved to Avezzano. Hopefully he'll be committed and enthusiastic, but its a shame that the mayors seem to come from afar.
> 
> Let's see.


Mauro Castagna. The Castagna surname is found in the area back to the mid 1700's. Never met him but I'am sure his family was from Ofena.


----------

