# Adoption in Egypt



## Horus

Your probably thinking GOD FORBID Horus adopting? Before you say it I have actually worked with disabled and vulnerable children and adults who had various behaviors which may have been challenging.

When I meet someone in Egypt (I am hopeful)  eventually I may wish to have children if that person has none however I don't want any of my own for various reasons which are personal to myself

What are the procedures for adoption / fostering in Egypt? I am sure there must be plenty of needy children?

This would be something for the far far future but I think an interesting topic


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## MaidenScotland

You cant..there is no adoption or fostering here,


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## Horus

Yes 

Your right...

"According to the U.S. Embassy in Cairo, securing custody of Egyptian orphans is extremely difficult, as adoption is essentially illegal in Egypt"


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## MaidenScotland

I know


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## Horus

Women always have to have the last word your like my wife she always tells me off as well 

Either way it's a shame as there seem to be quite a few needy children out there


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## expatagogo

It's Egypt. Almost everyone you see is needy in some way.

Let me tell you about those needy children you see.

Some are children that work to help support their families. They don't need to be fostered or adopted because they have homes and families. Sure, they're poor (which is why those children are out hustling packets of tissues), but they still have families.

Still others are "orphans". Don't be confused by the word because it doesn't mean the same thing in Egypt as it does in the west. In the west, an orphan is a child that has lost both of its parents and has no family to care for it. 

Not so in Egypt. In Egypt, an orphan is a child born of an illicit relationship - to unmarried parents. They have no birth certificates, thus they cannot go to school, get medical treatment through the public health system, or have any of the other opportunities having proper documents would offer. They live in those orphanages until they reach middle school age. Once boys are 7 - 10 years old, they are put out, into the street, which is why you see them hustling packets of tissues. Girls stay a couple of more years, not much though, and then they are married off.

Egyptians make themselves feel better about their orphan problem by making an annual holiday of it, "Orphans Day," where orphans are bused into private schools and entertained or they'll make a charitable contribution to an orphanage.

Meanwhile, these children languish in institutions, where they are not even real people, but instead are poster children for Egypt's raging hypocrisy.


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## SHendra

It's heartbreaking. 

Also I think it's something to do with the name of the child too, the child must have his fathers name. Biological one. Which rules out the adoption thing. It's something to do with the religion. 
A child can't grow up thinking someone else is his mum/dad when biologically they ain't.
I been trying to find something to back this up but I'm sure I read this before. I maybe wrong.


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## expatagogo

Its foundation is in Islam.

Sure it's heartbreaking. But it also speaks to what I've said before, Egypt is all about the mirage because OF COURSE there are no illegitimate children in Egypt. 

Right! They're all stuffed away in orphanages with no papers, thus OFFICIALLY they aren't there.

This also skews Egypt's numbers - infant mortality, etc.


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## Horus

I am sure I am hitting my head against a brick wall however once I am properly settled and have a stable relationship I am certainly going to see what I can do 

I don't see what the issue is if someone can provide a caring stable home to an orphan what is the big deal 

It's something I will certainly explore


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## expatagogo

The issue itself is interesting.

In the Arab world, wives keep their family name, which identifies their particular tribal affiliation. In keeping their family name, they never really become a member of their husband's family. Children, however, take their father's name and, legally, are more their father's than their mother's. In Egypt, in the event of a divorce, children stay with their mothers until boys are 15 and girls are 17, then they are given the choice of which parent they want to live with UNLESS the mother remarries. In that event, the children go to their father. If the father chooses not to raise them, they go to his mother.

Until recently, it has been the father's duty to register the births of children. It was not unusual (but not necessarily common) that a father would register the births of his son(s) but not his daughter(s). Why? Well, if the birth isn't registered, there is no requirement to send her to school or provide medical care. Also, I suppose there is no honor killing a person who never exhisted.

That has changed, however, and it is now possible for a mother to register births.

Horus, your ambitions are honorable, however quite impossible. Your time and energy would be better spent teaching a man to fish.


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## faima

Horus, my egyptian husband addopted my kid (and this is very rare in arab world, believe me), we just did the procedure in Bulgaria. As in the original birth certificate of my daughter there is no father name (it's written- father unknown), at school here there was a queue of ppl wanted to see this- how it is possible, and we couldnt explane that this is normal in my country. Finlay we made adoption to avoid this unpleasant situation in the future.


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## Horus

Do you think it would be possible to arrange a private adoption or swap for money or new blackberry torch (black) and iPad still in the box?


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## MaidenScotland

faima said:


> Horus, my egyptian husband addopted my kid (and this is very rare in arab world, believe me), we just did the procedure in Bulgaria. As in the original birth certificate of my daughter there is no father name (it's written- father unknown), at school here there was a queue of ppl wanted to see this- how it is possible, and we couldnt explane that this is normal in my country. Finlay we made adoption to avoid this unpleasant situation in the future.





That is lovely for you and your daughter, however Horus is talking about adopting and Egyptian child here in Egypt a completely different set of rules.


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## MaidenScotland

Horus said:


> Do you think it would be possible to arrange a private adoption or swap for money or new blackberry torch (black) and iPad still in the box?




sadly yes


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## eynas

Hi. Yes Islamic law does not allow for adoption but does clearly encourage foster parenting. The reasons are to aid and provide homes and security etc for orphans but not to confuse bloodlines. I do not know if it would be acceptable legally for a foreigner to become a foster parent to an Egyptian child- that you'd need to look into.

If in future you chose to foster a child in Egypt, I suggest you look to your Embassy for guidance to ensure you are not scammed by someone. And if you're interested in this as something in the distant future, then once you get out here, try establishing a relationship with an orphanage early on so that you know its administrators and get to know the kids there. If you still want to foster and its feasible, at least you'll already have established your contacts.


And to Expatagogo - no in Egypt orphan means the exact same thing as everywhere else. But you are definitely right that some women who give birth out of marriage will get rid of the child by leaving him with an orphanage. It's sad, but happens everywhere in the world where societies are still very conservative.

Additionally, women keeping their family name after marriage is not considered an exclusion from her husband's family, but a recognition of her personal identity. Its one of the Islamic beliefs supporting women's rights that is practiced without contest. With the divorce rates soaring in the world these days, it seems more practical as well; dont you think?


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## MaidenScotland

The local orphanage that I visit has 4 orphans the rest have been placed there by their families as they cannot afford to keep them or for other reasons, thing is once these girls get to working age the family often want them back


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## aykalam

A friend of mine went last week to visit (and help) at an "orphanage" here in Cairo. The kids at this place are not orphans but they are disabled, so their families have got rid of them. 

Unfortunately this is how things are in Egypt, something most people don't see when they come on holidays but when you live here you hear all sort of horror stories.

@Einas, sorry but I don't understand this thing about bloodlines. How is that important in today's non-tribal society?


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## Horus

Very sad.

I will try to help any local orphanage with items they can use such as food and toys if one exists close to where I will move and make a difference that way that's probably best.

If things did not work out in Egypt I would not want to cause a child confusion and that way I can try and help many


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## aykalam

Horus said:


> Very sad.
> 
> I will try to help any local orphanage with items they can use such as food and toys if one exists close to where I will move and make a difference that way that's probably best.
> 
> If things did not work out in Egypt I would not want to cause a child confusion and that way I can try and help many


Orphanages are always looking for help in any shape or form as they get none from the government.  Welfare system is non-existent here so if you fall on hard times it's tough to pick yourself up. I know back in Europe a lot of people sponge the system, but at least people who genuinely need the support do get it.

I don't know in Sharm, but there a lots of places in Cairo where you can help, financially or otherwise. :clap2:


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## Horus

aykalam said:


> Orphanages are always looking for help in any shape or form as they get none from the government.  Welfare system is non-existent here so if you fall on hard times it's tough to pick yourself up. I know back in Europe a lot of people sponge the system, but at least people who genuinely need the support do get it.
> 
> I don't know in Sharm, but there a lots of places in Cairo where you can help, financially or otherwise. :clap2:


I will find one and get items dropped off I don't trust them with money.

In all honesty I don't think I could go in and have a look myself 

I am totally disgusted to hear what goes on however it is a developing country however I can't help but feeling the rich keep the money from the poor and they have lots to answer to.

One day sooner or later I can see the "regime" crumbling and Egypt going into political meltdown so will always have a escape plan ready


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## expatagogo

Horus said:


> Do you think it would be possible to arrange a private adoption or swap for money or new blackberry torch (black) and iPad still in the box?


That might get you a couple of wives.


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## eynas

aykalam said:


> A friend of mine went last week to visit (and help) at an "orphanage" here in Cairo. The kids at this place are not orphans but they are disabled, so their families have got rid of them.
> 
> Unfortunately this is how things are in Egypt, something most people don't see when they come on holidays but when you live here you hear all sort of horror stories.
> 
> @Einas, sorry but I don't understand this thing about bloodlines. How is that important in today's non-tribal society?


Haha. Love the tribal thing. It isn't tribal, its just family bloodlines. Same as when you research your family tree to understand where your ancestors originate. I believe the concern religiously on bloodlines being identified is so that eventually you don't end up unwittingly reproducing from immediate family - incest - and eventually develop an entire society of morons. But I guess since we're already morons the bloodlines really shouldn't matter.


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## aykalam

eynas said:


> Haha. Love the tribal thing. It isn't tribal, its just family bloodlines. Same as when you research your family tree to understand where your ancestors originate. I believe the concern religiously on bloodlines being identified is so that eventually you don't end up unwittingly reproducing from immediate family - incest - and eventually develop an entire society of morons. But I guess since we're already morons the bloodlines really shouldn't matter.


:lol: well that's interesting...especially since I know several Egyptians married to their first cousins, something that is definitely most incestuous, but hey what do I know :confused2:


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## ASAMY

aykalam said:


> :lol: well that's interesting...especially since I know several Egyptians married to their first cousins, something that is definitely most incestuous, but hey what do I know :confused2:


I would like to say that adoption is legal and there is no problem with that

In fact, Muslims are encouraged to adopt children and donate money to raise them up

Adoption here is done with some restrictions

One of them is not giving the child your name because the child might grow up and end up marrying his own sister for example

the second reason is the inheritance part. The adopted child can not inherit money like the biological child

In our countries, marrying first cousins is not incest. It is medically advised not to do that to avoid giving birth to deformed children


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## SHendra

ASAMY said:


> I would like to say that adoption is legal and there is no problem with that
> 
> In fact, Muslims are encouraged to adopt children and donate money to raise them up
> 
> Adoption here is done with some restrictions
> 
> One of them is not giving the child your name because the child might grow up and end up marrying his own sister for example
> 
> *the second reason is the inheritance part. The adopted child can not inherit money like the biological child*
> 
> In our countries, marrying first cousins is not incest. It is medically advised not to do that to avoid giving birth to deformed children


With regard to the inheritance part and not being the biological child. Could say a child adopted still inherit from his/her adopted parent if named in a will as a named person instead of adopted son/daughter with whatever x amount a adopted parent wish to leave? as in a request from the deceased? Especially since the child will most likely be aware he/she is adopted anyway. Yet the bond between a adopted child and his/her parent can be just as strong as if they were blood related.


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## expatagogo

ASAMY said:


> I would like to say that adoption is legal and there is no problem with that
> 
> In fact, Muslims are encouraged to adopt children and donate money to raise them up
> 
> Adoption here is done with some restrictions
> 
> One of them is not giving the child your name because the child might grow up and end up marrying his own sister for example
> 
> the second reason is the inheritance part. The adopted child can not inherit money like the biological child
> 
> In our countries, marrying first cousins is not incest. It is medically advised not to do that to avoid giving birth to deformed children


Gotta appreciate that denial is not just a river in Egypt. 

Of course it's incest - as well as a way to keep I heritance in the family - on the husband's side, of course. Of course it's tribal tradition. 

In this 21st century, complete with DNA testing, what's the problem with adopting a child because lineage is no longer a challenge to sort out.


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## ASAMY

SHendra said:


> With regard to the inheritance part and not being the biological child. Could say a child adopted still inherit from his/her adopted parent if named in a will as a named person instead of adopted son/daughter with whatever x amount a adopted parent wish to leave? as in a request from the deceased? Especially since the child will most likely be aware he/she is adopted anyway. Yet the bond between a adopted child and his/her parent can be just as strong as if they were blood related.


Yes, The children can inherit from their foster parents if the parents stated that in their will 

this is different if they are biological children as inheritance will be automatic

you can read about adoption here
Adoption in Islam


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## ASAMY

expatagogo said:


> Gotta appreciate that denial is not just a river in Egypt.
> 
> Of course it's incest - as well as a way to keep I heritance in the family - on the husband's side, of course. Of course it's tribal tradition.
> 
> In this 21st century, complete with DNA testing, what's the problem with adopting a child because lineage is no longer a challenge to sort out.



It is incest in the American law. please read this page

Islamic View on Marrying Cousins - IslamonLine.net - Ask The Scholar


Lineage is not only the problem when adopting children. There are other restrictions according to the islamic law (you can read the webpage in the previous post)


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## expatagogo

I'm not going to argue elementary school science with you. Inbreeding causes genetic mutations and that's a fact. There is an elevated portion of the population in Upper Egypt that were born with genetalia issues (and gender confusion) which is solely a result of cousin/cousin marriages. Just because it isn't prohibited doesn't mean it makes sense.


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## DeadGuy

expatagogo said:


> I'm not going to argue elementary school science with you. Inbreeding causes genetic mutations and that's a fact. There is an elevated portion of the population in Upper Egypt that were born with genetalia issues (and gender confusion) which is solely a result of cousin/cousin marriages. Just because it isn't prohibited doesn't mean it makes sense.


Not just those issues........You can see the dramatic change in people's level of stupidity as well...........It's starting to be really clear on the new generations........


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## aykalam

DeadGuy said:


> Not just those issues........You can see the dramatic change in people's level of stupidity as well...........It's starting to be really clear on the new generations........


:spit: not just in the new generations! I think it may have a retroactive effect too :tongue1:


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## DeadGuy

aykalam said:


> :spit: not just in the new generations! I think it may have a retroactive effect too :tongue1:


Yes I know that it takes at least a couple of generations for crap like that to become obvious, I hate biology but I never got an F in it 

What I meant was the kinda people who actually NEED a calculator for something like (4*5) or even (98+2)!! And they really NEED the calculator, not that they use it cause they're too lazy to use their "brains"


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