# Britain should pay its expats’ medical bills, Spanish minister says



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news/uk/britain-pay-expats-medical-bills-spanish-minister-says/
http://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-...to-foot-healthcare-bill-for-british-citizens/

Some of the comments are pretty scary. Don't expect much sympathy for our plight from the Great British public.


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## rspltd (Jul 5, 2016)

This is a very muddled article which confuses pensioners and tourists. If you take the latter, they are entitled to use their EHIC card and Spain can claim back the cost and this is what happens. As a for instance Spain even claims back the costs of A & E treatment whereas Britain doesn't. It is estimated that the UK pays more than £670m to EU countries for Britons' healthcare abroad, while claiming back less than £50m from the EU. Perhaps the future will be that tourists will take out travel insurance as they do in other countries. 

If we take pensioner expats the Government pays Spain annually about €2900 for every pensioner expat in Spain whether they receive treatment or not. Senor Margelo ought to be careful or he may get what he wishes for.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Alcalaina said:


> https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news/uk/britain-pay-expats-medical-bills-spanish-minister-says/
> Spain wants UK to foot healthcare bill for British citizens – EurActiv.com
> 
> Some of the comments are pretty scary. Don't expect much sympathy for our plight from the Great British public.


I hope the Minister is right, and a deal will be reached to continue the present arrangements. It would seem to be beneficial for both countries. But common sense and rationality doesn't seem too much to the forefront in current public feeling in Britain, so I'm not 100% confident about that You're right, we shouldn't expect any sympathy from that quarter.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news/uk/britain-pay-expats-medical-bills-spanish-minister-says/
> Spain wants UK to foot healthcare bill for British citizens – EurActiv.com
> 
> Some of the comments are pretty scary. Don't expect much sympathy for our plight from the Great British public.


Shame the info isn't quite correct re: EHIC / S1....

But sadly I'm not in the least surprised that there's no sympathy at all from the great British public


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

rspltd said:


> This is a very muddled article which confuses pensioners and tourists. If you take the latter, they are entitled to use their EHIC card and Spain can claim back the cost and this is what happens. As a for instance Spain even claims back the costs of A & E treatment whereas Britain doesn't. It is estimated that the UK pays more than £670m to EU countries for Britons' healthcare abroad, while claiming back less than £50m from the EU. Perhaps the future will be that tourists will take out travel insurance as they do in other countries.
> 
> If we take pensioner expats the Government pays Spain annually about €2900 for every pensioner expat in Spain whether they receive treatment or not. Senor Margelo ought to be careful or he may get what he wishes for.


I wonder if there are any figures available as to how much the Spanish health services actually spend on treating British pensioners compared to how much they receive in funding from the UK? I've never been able to find any. There will be some pensioners who don't receive any treatment from the state system in any given year (my husband hasn't yet, in two years since he got his S1, and I've had very little apart from two GP visits and subsidised monthly prescriptions to the tune of €26 per month). However, there will be plenty more pensioners with serious and complex conditions whose care will be costing way in excess of €2900 per year.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

rspltd said:


> This is a very muddled article which confuses pensioners and tourists. If you take the latter, they are entitled to use their EHIC card and Spain can claim back the cost and this is what happens. As a for instance Spain even claims back the costs of A & E treatment whereas Britain doesn't. It is estimated that the UK pays more than £670m to EU countries for Britons' healthcare abroad, while claiming back less than £50m from the EU. Perhaps the future will be that tourists will take out travel insurance as they do in other countries.
> 
> If we take pensioner expats the Government pays Spain annually about €2900 for every pensioner expat in Spain whether they receive treatment or not. Senor Margelo ought to be careful or he may get what he wishes for.


If Britain isn't claiming EHIC costs from other EU countries whose residents are using the NHS whilst on holiday, more fool Britain! That's the whole point of the system. 

But yes it is a little muddled in that EHICs are for holidaymakers & pensioners get S1s. Either way though, Britain pays.

I think it's rather more than 2900€ per pensioner now


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Sorry, the comments are on The i Newspaper's Facebook page not in the paper itself. Along the lines of "they chose to live in a nice warm climate, so they can pay for medical insurance or come home."


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Alcalaina said:


> Sorry, the comments are on The i Newspaper's Facebook page not in the paper itself. Along the lines of "they chose to live in a nice warm climate, so they can pay for medical insurance or come home."


Without a thought for how much extra it would cost in NHS funding if hundreds of thousands of extra elderly people did decided to go home, naturally. That's what I mean by common sense and rationality not being to the forefront of public opinion.


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## rspltd (Jul 5, 2016)

I don't believe comments on The i Newspaper's Facebook page constitute the forefront of public opinion.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Alcalaina said:


> Sorry, the comments are on The i Newspaper's Facebook page not in the paper itself. Along the lines of "they chose to live in a nice warm climate, so they can pay for medical insurance or come home."


Personally, I couldn't agree more.

Why should we expect any benefits if we're not actually living in UK?


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## paintersmate (Dec 1, 2015)

snikpoh said:


> Personally, I couldn't agree more.
> 
> Why should we expect any benefits if we're not actually living in UK?


Because most of us ex-pat British pensioners have paid into the UK system all our working lives, and some of us, have only been away from UK a matter of months


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## rspltd (Jul 5, 2016)

As has been said many times before, 'those British pensioners who have paid into the UK system' did so as an Insurance and like most insurances when you stop paying in, you stop being paid out. Unusually the National Health Insurance does in fact have a benefit which is why people receive a pension and of course whilst paying in people were taking out and receiving the benefits..


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

rspltd said:


> I don't believe comments on The i Newspaper's Facebook page constitute the forefront of public opinion.


Well, similar views are already starting to appear on this thread and that's amongst people who are affected!

Fortunately they aren't the majority.


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## Jumar (Mar 14, 2012)

Sooo British pensioner in Britain are still paying in once they've retired are they?


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

What are the arrangements for Brit expats who currently live elsewhere out of the EU?

Does the UK pay there way or are there country by country reciprocol agreements or do they abandon them?

The answer will lie somewhere in there I'm guessing and with a little bit of mathematics thrown in it shouldn't be too hard to work out if a reciprocal agreement is better for one party than another.

I can see why people will feel short changed after contributing their whole life to the system but one can only look at the precedents already set.

Whoever is dealing with this will be having the same conversation with all 27 EU nations so by the time they work down the list to Spain there should be some idea of where this is headed. All after 2019 that is.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> Well, similar views are already starting to appear on this thread and that's amongst people who are affected!
> 
> Fortunately they aren't the majority.


We've seen it on other threads too  

I've seen it on FB & heard it directly from long time friends & even family 

It won't affect me - I work here so will get a Spanish pension & healthcare comes with that. But for so many who had spent years planning their retirement & until now had no real reason to expect to have to pay for private healthcare, if Britain stops funding their healthcare it could be the end of their happy retirement.

Sadly everything coming out of the Tory Party Conference is pointing towards that happening. It doesn't sound as if Spain is prepared to pick up the bill if it does. 

I wonder if Spain will find a way of not accepting those who have been here since before April 2012 into the system?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pazcat said:


> What are the arrangements for Brit expats who currently live elsewhere out of the EU?
> 
> Does the UK pay there way or are there country by country reciprocol agreements or do they abandon them?
> 
> ...



There are some countries with reciprocal agreements, including Gib, The Isle of Man & Jersey, though a lot were terminated this year

Non-EEA country-by-country guide - Healthcare abroad - NHS Choices

I'm not 100% sure if this is just for holidays though - it seems to be
You just have to pay for private healthcare anywhere else


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

I hope a deal is worked out for retired brits living in Spain. Let be honest, there are a lot who moved there for better weather but also in the belief living costs would mean their pensions would go further but have little or nothing left in the bank at the end of the month.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

snikpoh said:


> Personally, I couldn't agree more.
> 
> Why should we expect any benefits if we're not actually living in UK?





xabiachica said:


> We've seen it on other threads too
> 
> I've seen it on FB & heard it directly from long time friends & even family
> 
> ...


I've had a conversation with you regarding this before but can't find the info!


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## tebo53 (Sep 18, 2014)

So if the UK stops paying for healthcare in Spain, one can assume the UK will also stop paying for the healthcare in the rest of the EU countries. 

So how many British expats from all those other countries will have to go back to the UK. There will be hundreds of thousands maybe! Apart from healthcare they will need housing and other services. Will the British government be willing to pay for all that entails or would it be far easier and simpler to continue with the arrangement they have now. 

What about all the nationalities that live in the UK, will the elderly have to return to their respective countries? 

I think whoever gets their healthcare paid for now will continue to get it, and maybe the rule in the future (after brexit) will be that anyone retiring and moving outside of the UK will need to get their own private healthcare 

Steve.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

But not those of us working in Spain now

Or those ( and I know it could have changed at anytime) who took early retirement based on that fact. Whilst I know that could have changed that's a big concern for them how many will have to return to a UK that apparently is already full


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## rspltd (Jul 5, 2016)

"Apart from healthcare they will need housing and other services" I'm afraid this is no longer automatic particularly if you have been living outside your country for a long time. 

If you've recently returned to the UK after a period living outside of the common travel area, you may have to show that you satisfy the habitual residence test in order to claim certain means-tested benefits. If you've spent *three months or more living* or working abroad you could find yourself subject to the test when you return to the UK, particularly if you no longer have property or close family in the UK.

The HRT looks at what ties you already have in the UK and what you are doing to make the UK the centre of your life. The Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) or other benefit agencies will also want to know how much you have cut ties with the country where you were living before. You will be asked a series of questions tailored to your individual circumstances to try and find out this information. You should be ready to give as much evidence and documentation as you can if you are asked these type of questions.

The DWP, your local authority or HMRC will decide at what point you can be viewed as habitually resident, depending on how long you have been away, why you were abroad, and what ties you kept with the UK during this time.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

tebo53 said:


> I think whoever gets their healthcare paid for now will continue to get it, and maybe the rule in the future (after brexit) will be that anyone retiring and moving outside of the UK will need to get their own private healthcare
> 
> Steve.


I'm hoping that that will be the case (as a worst case scenario. although it won't help people wanting to move to EU countries in the future). However, someone in my position who presently receives free healthcare by way of an S1 as my husband's dependant I could still be affected by that. I am supposed to apply for an S1 in my own right once I reach state retirement age, which in my case will be nearly another six years by which time Britain will almost certainly be out of the EU. Does that mean I could still get one, or would I be regarded as a new applicant and not eligible? So many complications.


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## stevesainty (Jan 7, 2011)

I am not sure if this is a non starter or not, but I read somewhere recently that if you declare yourself as autonimo in Spain you would only have to pay a reduced fee for two years and then pay the full fee. This would mean that you and your dependants would receive state healthcare. On the face of it this would be cheaper than convenio especial if both of you were over 65.
Would this scenario hold water?


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

rspltd said:


> "Apart from healthcare they will need housing and other services" I'm afraid this is no longer automatic particularly if you have been living outside your country for a long time.
> 
> If you've recently returned to the UK after a period living outside of the common travel area, you may have to show that you satisfy the habitual residence test in order to claim certain means-tested benefits. If you've spent *three months or more living* or working abroad you could find yourself subject to the test when you return to the UK, particularly if you no longer have property or close family in the UK.
> 
> ...


Looks like you've done a cut-and-paste here. Perhaps you might like to include the link?

I don't think tebo53 was suggesting that the British government should re-house returning pensioners. But they would have to live somewhere, so it would put even more pressure on the housing market. And as they get older, they may need social care from local authorities whose budgets are already stretched to breaking point. So it certainly makes economic sense to encourage them to stay in Spain by continuing to fund their healthcare.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

stevesainty said:


> I am not sure if this is a non starter or not, but I read somewhere recently that if you declare yourself as autonimo in Spain you would only have to pay a reduced fee for two years and then pay the full fee. This would mean that you and your dependants would receive state healthcare. On the face of it this would be cheaper than convenio especial if both of you were over 65.
> Would this scenario hold water?


I thought that over 65s who are in receipt of a state pension are not legally allowed to work in Spain? I am not sure if this would apply to people receiving state pensions from countries other than Spain, but if it would, and I am correct in my recollection (which I might not be) then I can't see that one being able to fly. Don't you also have to provide evidence of actual trading, not just be autonomo in name only? And there are gestor's fees to pay for submitting the required returns, as well as the autonomo contributions.


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

tebo53 said:


> So if the UK stops paying for healthcare in Spain, one can assume the UK will also stop paying for the healthcare in the rest of the EU countries.
> 
> So how many British expats from all those other countries will have to go back to the UK. There will be hundreds of thousands maybe! Apart from healthcare they will need housing and other services. _Will the British government be willing to pay for all that entails or would it be far easier and simpler to continue with the arrangement they have now.
> _
> ...


But it might not be the same arrangement as now - it might come at a higher cost to the UK.


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## paintersmate (Dec 1, 2015)

Lynn R said:


> I'm hoping that that will be the case (as a worst case scenario. although it won't help people wanting to move to EU countries in the future). However, someone in my position who presently receives free healthcare by way of an S1 as my husband's dependant I could still be affected by that. I am supposed to apply for an S1 in my own right once I reach state retirement age, which in my case will be nearly another six years by which time Britain will almost certainly be out of the EU. Does that mean I could still get one, or would I be regarded as a new applicant and not eligible? So many complications.


Im in exactly the same position, Lynn, with the same time frame


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## mono (Jan 22, 2016)

It has been a long time since folk in UK could think that housing will be provided for them by the state. Social care, albeit with drastic cuts, is still available for now. But every year since the coolition, and more so since tories in charge, welfare state cuts are diminishing the old status quo. Many families with children, in England, not Scotland and Wales, are being housed far away and in different counties from whence they come.
Many councils point people in the direction of the private sector, all over Britain. The rent rebate is capped so the surplus has to be paid from pensions, causing more and more poverty for retirees. There is an unprecedented upsurge in pensioners on short assured tenancies in Britain


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

paintersmate said:


> Im in exactly the same position, Lynn, with the same time frame


As are we but I'm in the working category


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## mono (Jan 22, 2016)

Also record numbers of single working people in their 30s and 40s staying at home or sharing houses with no prospect of buying in foreseeable future.
Government don't seem to care


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

mono said:


> Also record numbers of single working people in their 30s and 40s staying at home or sharing houses with no prospect of buying in foreseeable future.
> Government don't seem to care


And what will happen when those people eventually get to retirement age - how will they pay rent when they only have pensions which will be less generous than those many of today's pensioners are receiving? Will the Housing Benefit bill have to spiral to enable them to stay in the private rented sector? What happens to social care costs when hardly anbody will have a house to sell to fund their care?


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

tebo53 said:


> So if the UK stops paying for healthcare in Spain, one can assume the UK will also stop paying for the healthcare in the rest of the EU countries.
> 
> So how many British expats from all those other countries will have to go back to the UK. There will be hundreds of thousands maybe! Apart from healthcare they will need housing and other services. Will the British government be willing to pay for all that entails or would it be far easier and simpler to continue with the arrangement they have now.
> 
> ...


Some EU countries such as France will pay their pensions. Access to health care, though, is a totally different thing and, I suspect, will depend very much on the approach taken by the UK. Some EU nationalities, though, tend more to return to their home country on retirement and not so many choose to retire to the UK (unless they have children there).

I would tend to take it as a given that Brits choosing to retire to the EU will need to take out private insurance (except perhaps in countries such as France which has opened up access to health care to any nationality after 3 months' proven continuous residence subject to having health cover in the interim).


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> Looks like you've done a cut-and-paste here. Perhaps you might like to include the link?
> 
> I don't think tebo53 was suggesting that the British government should re-house returning pensioners. But they would have to live somewhere, so it would put even more pressure on the housing market. And as they get older, they may need social care from local authorities whose budgets are already stretched to breaking point. So it certainly makes economic sense to encourage them to stay in Spain by continuing to fund their healthcare.


I think the poster may well be correct. I recall a member of the French forum returning to the UK (before retirement age) reporting that he had no immediate access to the social welfare system, although I do believe he had access to the UK health care system. (I have no idea whether I would have immediate access to health care should I return to the UK, they've changed the rules so much!)


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

stevesainty said:


> I am not sure if this is a non starter or not, but I read somewhere recently that if you declare yourself as autonimo in Spain you would only have to pay a reduced fee for two years and then pay the full fee. This would mean that you and your dependants would receive state healthcare. On the face of it this would be cheaper than convenio especial if both of you were over 65.
> Would this scenario hold water?


That bucket would be very leaky

If you are in receipt of a state pension you aren't allowed to work, so that's one hole

Another is, that as an autónomo worker I have to show that I'm actually running a business, with invoices in & out, every quarter. So that's another hole. 

I'm sure there are more but it's been a long work day today & my gestor emailed me to remind me that I need to get all my invoices for the quarter to him asap


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

rspltd said:


> As has been said many times before, 'those British pensioners who have paid into the UK system' did so as an Insurance and like most insurances when you stop paying in, you stop being paid out. Unusually the National Health Insurance does in fact have a benefit which is why people receive a pension and of course whilst paying in people were taking out and receiving the benefits..


As I understand it there is no such thing as 'National Health Insurance'. NI is different.
The NHS is funded from general taxation, not NI contributions.
It is available to all, funded by general taxation, free at the point of use....

I pay tax in the UK as well as in Spain so I would consider myself entitled to continue having my health care funded by the UK Government wherever in the EU I find myself living.
My view is that the UK Government will continue funding those immigrants who are already receiving care via the UK up to a cut-off point, perhaps when Article 50 is triggered.
After that it may well cease. Due warning should be given so prospective immigrants are aware that they may have to fund their own health care.
The NHS is in a bad enough state already without having to cope with an extra tens of thousands of decrepit ailing OAPs.


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## mono (Jan 22, 2016)

I just increasingly feel in recent years that politicians don't care enough. They do not seem to have the compassion and empathy for citizens. They all are career politicians and are well off and appear to agree to whatever austerity measures have to be put in place to cut welfare. Although the debt has doubled in the past 6 years. So not sure the fiscal policies are working.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news/uk/britain-pay-expats-medical-bills-spanish-minister-says/
> Spain wants UK to foot healthcare bill for British citizens – EurActiv.com
> 
> Some of the comments are pretty scary. Don't expect much sympathy for our plight from the Great British public.


Not surprising, really, is it. The view will be that we chose to leave the UK, nobody forced us and there is no 'human right' to live in Spain or anywhere.

And to be honest, if I were a young British person, maybe without a job, maybe on a zero hour contract, no security, low pay, living with Mum and Dad because I can't afford to rent let alone buy a house and with no foreseeable change in the future, I'd probably feel the same.
Such a person would swap his/her insecurity for ours in a flash.
Brexit will make things worse for them too.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

mrypg9 said:


> Not surprising, really, is it. The view will be that we chose to leave the UK, nobody forced us and there is no 'human right' to live in Spain or anywhere.
> 
> And to be honest, if I were a young British person, maybe without a job, maybe on a zero hour contract, no security, low pay, living with Mum and Dad because I can't afford to rent let alone buy a house and with no foreseeable change in the future, I'd probably feel the same.
> Such a person would swap his/her insecurity for ours in a flash.
> Brexit will make things worse for them too.


Maybe if someone in the UK had stood up and said...

"Look if we're going to make our membership of the EU work, with open borders, etc, we're going to have to adopt a more European attitude towards social security, whereby benefits are mainly based on what you have paid into the system, rather than the fact that you happen to be within the UK's borders and what your current financial situation is. And to make it work we'll probably have to introduce ID cards like the rest of the EU as well"

...things might have been different?


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

mrypg9 said:


> Not surprising, really, is it. The view will be that we chose to leave the UK, nobody forced us and there is no 'human right' to live in Spain or anywhere.
> 
> And to be honest, if I were a young British person, maybe without a job, maybe on a zero hour contract, no security, low pay, living with Mum and Dad because I can't afford to rent let alone buy a house and with no foreseeable change in the future, I'd probably feel the same.
> Such a person would swap his/her insecurity for ours in a flash.
> Brexit will make things worse for them too.


I agree. If I were an expat I would raise the matter with my MP (if I still had a vote) and ask her/him to raise the matter or to the Relevant Minister.

I do think you paint an over gloomy picture of youth in UK though. Most are very visible and spending.

Around 2.5% of the population are on zero hours and it is claimed 60% of those are happy with it. Mainly because they are students or in the benefit trap. Our regional business association reports many Employers have found a backlash as they cannot get people to work more than eg. 15 hours as it will affect their HB, tax credits etc. Most countries now have some type of flexible working...Spain hands out contracts for as little as three weeks.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> Not surprising, really, is it. The view will be that we chose to leave the UK, nobody forced us and there is no 'human right' to live in Spain or anywhere.
> And to be honest, if I were a young British person, maybe without a job, maybe on a zero hour contract, no security, low pay, living with Mum and Dad because I can't afford to rent let alone buy a house and with no foreseeable change in the future, I'd probably feel the same.
> Such a person would swap his/her insecurity for ours in a flash.
> Brexit will make things worse for them too.


This is very true, and one that should be at the back of all our minds when we are moaning. I do worry I have days when it gets to me then sod it days then it could be worse days I'm just human.



Chopera said:


> Maybe if someone in the UK had stood up and said...
> 
> "Look if we're going to make our membership of the EU work, with open borders, etc, we're going to have to adaopt a more European attitude towards social security, whereby benefits are mainly based on what you have paid into the system, rather than the fact that you happen to be within the UK's borders and what your current financial situation is. And to make it work we'll probably have to introduce ID cards like the rest of the EU as well"
> 
> ...things might have been different?


Things would have been very different because we would not have bred a class of people who feel they have a right to everything with no reponsibility at all. BUT it's very British thing , or it was, to ensure that those who have nothing get looked after, I fear in this global businesses led world many many people are going to get left behind. Whatever happens to us the UK or the EU


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## Tigerlillie (Apr 7, 2015)

tebo53 said:


> So if the UK stops paying for healthcare in Spain, one can assume the UK will also stop paying for the healthcare in the rest of the EU countries.
> 
> So how many British expats from all those other countries will have to go back to the UK. There will be hundreds of thousands maybe! Apart from healthcare they will need housing and other services. Will the British government be willing to pay for all that entails or would it be far easier and simpler to continue with the arrangement they have now.
> 
> ...


I don't know about other EU countries but here in France after 3 mths proven residency, *everyone*, EU or non EU is entitled to access the health system. Depending on your income and/or resources this dictates how much or how little you pay towards the health service and most people have an insurance policy (mutuelle) that 'tops up' what the state doesn't pay. A better explanation of the mutuelle is given here:

https://www.devismutuelle.com/guide/mutuelle/mutuelle-contrat-responsable-et-solidaire

Sorry it's in french but if you hover over the text right click and then click translate to english it's fairly easy to understand.
And if your income is less than 8650€ pa for a single person or 11500€ for a couple then everything is free prescriptions included.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Tigerlillie said:


> I don't know about other EU countries but here in France after 3 mths proven residency, *everyone*, EU or non EU is entitled to access the health system. Depending on your income and/or resources this dictates how much or how little you pay towards the health service and most people have an insurance policy (mutuelle) that 'tops up' what the state doesn't pay. A better explanation of the mutuelle is given here:
> 
> https://www.devismutuelle.com/guide/mutuelle/mutuelle-contrat-responsable-et-solidaire
> 
> ...


But in the long term how sustainable is thus. Whilst I'm really an advocate of free healthcare for all long term something has to give.


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

Megsmum said:


> But in the long term how sustainable is thus. Whilst I'm really an advocate of free healthcare for all long term something has to give.


The French health care system is not free to all though, the vast majority of people pay contributions, which are not insignificant but are based on income.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

EverHopeful said:


> The French health care system is not free to all though, the vast majority of people pay contributions, which are not insignificant but are based on income.


Indeed, the tax payer has to pay for it somewhere down the line. I assume Megsmum was referring to it being free to all at the point of delivery.


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## Tigerlillie (Apr 7, 2015)

Megsmum said:


> But in the long term how sustainable is thus. Whilst I'm really an advocate of *free healthcare* for all long term something has to give.


I'm not sure what you mean by this because healthcare in France isn't free as such, you pay according to your means. This is calculated as a percentage on your* taxable income* *whether you are employed or not *so those on the minimum wage/income would pay less in contributions than those on a higher wage/income and those whose income is below a certain threshold don't pay at all but the claim for free healthcare has to be reviewed and renewed annually. However, should anyone who gets 'free' healthcare become employed they then have to start paying for it.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Chopera said:


> Indeed, the tax payer has to pay for it somewhere down the line. I assume Megsmum was referring to it being free to all at the point of delivery.


I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that EverHopeful & Tigerlillie mean is that healthcare_ isn't _free at the point of delivery in France.


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## Evilbungle (Jul 8, 2016)

Chopera said:


> Indeed, the tax payer has to pay for it somewhere down the line.


Only for the very poorest, Most citizens pay a large amount of the costs themseleves (Either directly or via insurance) It is therefore easy to open the system to everyone as if you use then you pay. The NHS however is the opposite model where it is free to use and therefore needs to be limited - although as stated earlier the NHS is incredibly poor at taking money in even when it is owed it.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Tigerlillie said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by this because healthcare in France isn't free as such, you pay according to your means. This is calculated as a percentage on your* taxable income* *whether you are employed or not *so those on the minimum wage/income would pay less in contributions than those on a higher wage/income and those whose income is below a certain threshold don't pay at all but the claim for free healthcare has to be reviewed and renewed annually. However, should anyone who gets 'free' healthcare become employed they then have to start paying for it.


Apologies I forgot that was the case in France and probably the French system is something that will be looked at in the UK for the changes obvious coming


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

EverHopeful said:


> The French health care system is not free to all though, the vast majority of people pay contributions, which are not insignificant but are based on income.


As it should be in the U.K. Wait until that's announced, there will be uproar then. I see a UK NHS, where those with pay, and I suspect the "with" bit will be a tad lower than many think. It will still be free at the point of use but copayment will have to come in


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## Tigerlillie (Apr 7, 2015)

Megsmum said:


> Apologies I forgot that was the case in France and probably the French system is something that will be looked at in the UK for the changes obvious coming


I think the French system is a good idea, everyone pays towards it if their income is taxable and the poorest in society have access to it as well. Depending on what or how much cover you require from a mutuelle some can be fairly inexpensive and *most* of them do not discriminate against people with existing conditions. I also know people here that don't have a mutuelle but I think that's silly because you never know what's round the corner. I am in general good health but have been hospitalized for minor ailments (kidney stones) and I dread to think how much that would have cost me without my mutuelle.


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## Evilbungle (Jul 8, 2016)

Tigerlillie said:


> I think the French system is a good idea,


I think the mixed public/private system is the only way to manage with the aging/growing population etc... But I worry for the safety of the politician who tries to introduce it.


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## Tigerlillie (Apr 7, 2015)

Evilbungle said:


> I think the mixed public/private system is the only way to manage with the aging/growing population etc... But I worry for the safety of the politician who tries to introduce it.


Although I think the french way is a good idea it is far from perfect and the french NHS is in trouble as well because of an aging population and high unemployment.


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

Chopera said:


> Indeed, the tax payer has to pay for it somewhere down the line. I assume Megsmum was referring to it being free to all at the point of delivery.


Social security contributions do not form part of income tax in France, they are totally separate.

Also, the system is not (yet) free to all at the pot of delivery, although recent legislation is supposed to achieve that.


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

Tigerlillie said:


> Although I think the french way is a good idea it is far from perfect and the french NHS is in trouble as well because of an aging population and high unemployment.


But at least the French have been reducing the deficit across their social security system via both reducing costs and via the dreaded CSG (which is effectively a tax levy for those who are unfamiliar with it). The UK OTOH seems, from what I gather, to be trying to address the issue only via reducing expenditure, and I wouldn't think that could be sustainable. 

We did mention that contributions in France aren't just for health care, but also for sick leave, unemployment and pension, nor that the employers also have to contribute on behalf of each employee (at a higher rate), not that the bulk of employers now have to offer their employees a mutuelle for which they pay 50% of the contributions.

The system is actually very different to that in the UK and I think that employers wouldn't want a bar of it, voters (including unions) would be opposed, and of course it would mean that the UK would no longer be so a low cost country to do business. But then, the history of the systems in each country is very different, as is the culture.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Megsmum said:


> As it should be in the U.K. Wait until that's announced, there will be uproar then. I see a UK NHS, where those with pay, and I suspect the "with" bit will be a tad lower than many think. It will still be free at the point of use but copayment will have to come in


It's already starting, when I was over recently I read about a new scheme in London where you can pay £40 and jump the queue to see a GP the same day.


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## rspltd (Jul 5, 2016)

It's been around a long time. There have been GPs in stations for example that you could see almost straight away but of course you had to pay. roved to be very useful for people who couldn't get to see a GP during the day without taking leave.


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## Roy C (Sep 29, 2012)

I can't understand why pensioners receive healthcare in Spain paid by the UK and those who retire a bit early don't get it, like they get in the UK? What is the difference and surely all should be treated equally, either all get it or all don't get it. There, that's fair.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Roy C said:


> I can't understand why pensioners receive healthcare in Spain paid by the UK and those who retire a bit early don't get it, like they get in the UK? What is the difference and surely all should be treated equally, either all get it or all don't get it. There, that's fair.


Well I suppose what do you call "retire early"

IF I left the UK aged 45 because I'd have savings etc. Should I get UK paid healthcare? UK peeps who move to outside the EU, as far as I know, neither receive healthcare or an index linked pension. Obviously on a personal level I want to get healfrom the UK for ever. Reality it's not going to happen


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Alcalaina said:


> It's already starting, when I was over recently I read about a new scheme in London where you can pay £40 and jump the queue to see a GP the same day.


I haven't heard of this we can get same day in our village but have to call by 8.30 am


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Isobella said:


> I haven't heard of this we can get same day in our village but have to call by 8.30 am


Yes - we can get same day as well if we phone early - otherwise next day. I guess London's different.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

jimenato said:


> Yes - we can get same day as well if we phone early - otherwise next day. I guess London's different.


When I had to phone my aunt's GP surgery to get her an appointment (not for anything urgent, she'd been told to go back to get the results of a blood test) I had to ring before 8.30 am. I started trying at 8.00 am when they opened but by the time I could get through I was told all the appointments for that day had gone, asked if I could make one for the following day as it wasn't urgent, but was told no, I'd have to ring again in the morning. The next day I did manage to get through, but that did strike me as a daft and very frustrating system. Part of the problem seems to be that surgeries are stand alone entities and not all obliged to follow the same procedures.

My own old Health Centre used to have a similar system. I worked a long distance from home but if I wanted to see a GP, not necessarily about anything urgent, I couldn't set off for work but had to wait at home until the health centre opened and ring for an appointment, because if I'd set off and been told to come in at 11.00 am, say, I wouldn't have been able to get back in time to keep the appointment. So every GP appointment ended up involving half a day off work which just wasn't necessary, if I'd been able to ring and say request the first or last appointment of the day a couple of days in advance.

I love the system here where I can go online and choose my own appointment time, either the same day or several days in advance.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

https://www.thesun.co.uk/living/179...tients-to-pay-50-to-queue-jump-to-see-nhs-gp/

My Dad had to phone GP this morning. 

Phone surgery 

Surgery takes details GP phoned you back
Go 
Surgery takes info Dr phones back

Dr phones decides if they need to see you

Rural village Lincolnshire


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Lynn R said:


> When I had to phone my aunt's GP surgery to get her an appointment (not for anything urgent, she'd been told to go back to get the results of a blood test) I had to ring before 8.30 am. I started trying at 8.00 am when they opened but by the time I could get through I was told all the appointments for that day had gone, asked if I could make one for the following day as it wasn't urgent, but was told no, I'd have to ring again in the morning. The next day I did manage to get through, but that did strike me as a daft and very frustrating system. Part of the problem seems to be that surgeries are stand alone entities and not all obliged to follow the same procedures.
> 
> My own old Health Centre used to have a similar system. I worked a long distance from home but if I wanted to see a GP, not necessarily about anything urgent, I couldn't set off for work but had to wait at home until the health centre opened and ring for an appointment, because if I'd set off and been told to come in at 11.00 am, say, I wouldn't have been able to get back in time to keep the appointment. So every GP appointment ended up involving half a day off work which just wasn't necessary, if I'd been able to ring and say request the first or last appointment of the day a couple of days in advance.
> 
> I love the system here where I can go online and choose my own appointment time, either the same day or several days in advance.


It must be a post code thing, in Spain too. Friends in San Pedro and Marbella say they have a three day wait at least for an appointment. Blood test results here, you can get an instant print out and a telephone appointment with Doctor to talk them through. Oh and online appointments...not same day ones though.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Isobella said:


> It must be a post code thing, in Spain too. Friends in San Pedro and Marbella say they have a three day wait at least for an appointment.


All the Health Centres in Andalucia use the same Salud Responde system, where you can make appointments by phone, online or by SMS (or with an app I think). If people in some areas can't get same day appointments that most probably comes down to GP numbers per head of the population served by each Health Centre.

At my Centro de Salud (Velez Norte) there are 12 consulting rooms, one for each doctor, although they may not all be on duty at once. That's one of two Centros de Salud in town, and the other one (Velez Sur) has 24 hour cover 7 days a week (mine closes at 9pm)


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## tebo53 (Sep 18, 2014)

*May OAP healthcare continue!*

An article in a couple of Freeby papers suggest that Spain wants to continue with the healthcare arrangements with the UK after brexit 

www.costa-news.com/latest-news/spain-wants-health-deal-for-british-oaps/

Hopefully it might continue.

Steve


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

tebo53 said:


> An article in a couple of Freeby papers suggest that Spain wants to continue with the healthcare arrangements with the UK after brexit
> 
> Spain wants health deal for British OAPs | Costa News
> 
> ...


I've moved your post for you, to a thread already discussing this


I'm sure that Spain would be happy for the arrangement to continue. After all I'm sure that Spain can't afford to fund the healthcare of all those pensioners who might qualify for it if Britain stops paying


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

jimenato said:


> Yes - we can get same day as well if we phone early - otherwise next day. I guess London's different.


My dad lives in the same town as you and can't get an appointment in the same week sometimes!


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

tebo53 said:


> An article in a couple of Freeby papers suggest that Spain wants to continue with the healthcare arrangements with the UK after brexit
> 
> Spain wants health deal for British OAPs | Costa News
> 
> ...


The question, though, is what arrangement does Spain want when it says it wants the UK to pick up the bill. And, of course, it requires that both Spain and the UK agree (or that it's dealt with in the EU exit negotiations).


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## Roy C (Sep 29, 2012)

Can someone tell me how it works with the private healthcare. Do you use the same doctors surgery in the Spanish HS and then it is paid for through your insurance or do you go to a different surgery? The HS surgeries sound terrific.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Roy C said:


> Can someone tell me how it works with the private healthcare. Do you use the same doctors surgery in the Spanish HS and then it is paid for through your insurance or do you go to a different surgery? The HS surgeries sound terrific.


Most insurers will give you list of private doctors & hospitals which accept their insurance

I don't know of any which work with the state healthcare system


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Yes, Xabiachica is right. When you take out private health insurance, you will get a copy of the company's "cuadro medico" ie their directory of all the clinics, hospitals and specialists in the various areas of medicine which they authorise you to use. They are always private ones, not state.

Different companies may operate in different ways, but in our case we get booklets of "cheques de asistencia". When we want to see a GP or specialist (you can make a specialist appointment directly, without needing a GP referral or prior authorisation from the insurance company) we make the appointment, sign one of these cheques and hand it over in payment, and the clinic/specialist bills the company. If any tests or further treatment is needed, we have to get prior authorisation from the company and they send us back stamped authorisation, we then make the appointments for the tests/treatment and hand over the company authorisation which enables them to bill the company.


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

Lynn R said:


> Yes, Xabiachica is right. When you take out private health insurance, you will get a copy of the company's "cuadro medico" ie their directory of all the clinics, hospitals and specialists in the various areas of medicine which they authorise you to use. They are always private ones, not state.
> 
> Different companies may operate in different ways, but in our case we get booklets of "cheques de asistencia". When we want to see a GP or specialist (you can make a specialist appointment directly, without needing a GP referral or prior authorisation from the insurance company) we make the appointment, sign one of these cheques and hand it over in payment, and the clinic/specialist bills the company. If any tests or further treatment is needed, we have to get prior authorisation from the company and they send us back stamped authorisation, we then make the appointments for the tests/treatment and hand over the company authorisation which enables them to bill the company.


I suspect that with the insurers who work differently you pay upfront and claim back. For expensive services which you can't pay for upfront, you would have to go with one of the services they list.

Check your policy or the policy you are thinking of taking up.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

EverHopeful said:


> I suspect that with the insurers who work differently you* pay upfront and claim back.* For expensive services which you can't pay for upfront, you would have to go with one of the services they list.
> 
> Check your policy or the policy you are thinking of taking up.


That kind of policy wouldn't be accepted for resident registration though


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> That kind of policy wouldn't be accepted for resident registration though


So what do non-EU citizens do in Spain?


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

EverHopeful said:


> So what do non-EU citizens do in Spain?


They can have the same kind of private health insurance I have, where they never have to pay anything upfront. It's not expensive, we currently pay €60 per month each, and it's no more expensive for my husband who is nearly 67 than it is for me aged 60.

I know with some of the Spanish insurance companies the policyholder has to pay a small amount each time they see a doctor, in addition to the insurance premium. I preferred to go for one where I didn't.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Lynn R said:


> They can have the same kind of private health insurance I have, where they never have to pay anything upfront. It's not expensive, we currently pay €60 per month each, and it's no more expensive for my husband who is nearly 67 than it is for me aged 60.
> 
> I know with some of the Spanish insurance companies the policyholder has to pay a small amount each time they see a doctor, in addition to the insurance premium. I preferred to go for one where I didn't.


I presume you've been with them a while? I know of a couple in their early sixties one with hypertension where the costs are double that plus full price for meds


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## Roy C (Sep 29, 2012)

Lynn R said:


> They can have the same kind of private health insurance I have, where they never have to pay anything upfront. It's not expensive, we currently pay €60 per month each, and it's no more expensive for my husband who is nearly 67 than it is for me aged 60.
> 
> I know with some of the Spanish insurance companies the policyholder has to pay a small amount each time they see a doctor, in addition to the insurance premium. I preferred to go for one where I didn't.


I've often heard you talk about this company before and it is more than probable the company we will use, I've already put a friend onto them and he and his wife in Alhaurin is going or gone with them, he was very pleased with the quotes.


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## I Hate The Colour Pink (Jul 29, 2016)

What is the name of the company? I heave read a post which says a couple had insurance but because there was an element of payment to see a Dr it could not be used to get Residensia is that true?


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## Roy C (Sep 29, 2012)

Prevision Medica


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

EverHopeful said:


> I suspect that with the insurers who work differently you pay upfront and claim back. For expensive services which you can't pay for upfront, you would have to go with one of the services they list.
> 
> Check your policy or the policy you are thinking of taking up.


I've used private insurance companies for 20 years and have used three different ones (one through Caja Madrid - can't remember the name; Caja Salud; and currently with Adeslas) and I've never had to pay upfront. 

In all three cases I've had a card (like a credit card) which they swipe when I see a private doctor or use a private medical service. That's it - the service is paid for. If it's an expensive test (like an MRI) or a surgery that's getting done then an authorization is required before they will swipe. That entails me phoning the insurance company and getting an authorization number which I have to write onto the test order form. I've never had a problem getting an authorization number. They give it straight away, no questions asked. So it seems like a stupid bureaucratic step but that's how it's always worked.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Megsmum said:


> I presume you've been with them a while? I know of a couple in their early sixties one with hypertension where the costs are double that plus full price for meds


Oh, yes, we have - the price is reasonable because we took the insurance out 8 years ago when neither of us had any pre-existing conditions, but many companies hike the premiums anyway once a policyholder turns 65, whereas ours does not. Ironically it's my husband who still has no known health conditions and hasn't so much as seen a GP for years.

We do have to pay full price for any medication we're prescribed in the private system (other than for anything prescribed during a hospital stay). At the moment, whilst we're covered by S1s in the state system, I get repeat prescriptions for my medication from the Health Service GP for what was originally prescribed by my cardiologist in the private system.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

So maybe this will be the negotiation point to help those British expats living in the EU ?

Every EU migrant can stay in UK after Brexit: all 3.6 million to have residency rules or get amnesty



> The health department is also conducting a major study on arrangements with Spain to allow British expats to get free medical treatment abroad.


Jo xxx


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jojo said:


> So maybe this will be the negotiation point to help those British expats living in the EU ?
> 
> Every EU migrant can stay in UK after Brexit: all 3.6 million to have residency rules or get amnesty
> 
> ...


Odd that Spain should be singled out. Though I guess with so many Brits in Spain they might think it is a 'special case'. It isn't of course. The arrangement is the same in Spain as in all other EU countries.

It's a bit of a worry that someone feels that a 'major study' is needed though. It's simple at the moment. The UK issues S1s to pensioners & pays the EU country in which they live a fixed amount per annum per S1. 

If they are studying exactly how much it would cost if they paid the _actual _cost of healthcare, I suspect that the the UK might be in for a shock & realise what a good deal it has atm.

Spain & other EU countries might not be happy for the current model to continue. On the basis of this report I'd be willing to bet that they might want to send actual bills to the UK for payment.

I can't think of any other reason for a 'major study', & the possibility that the real cost of healthcare might be demanded hadn't occurred to me before. 

I hope that the UK agrees to it, if it is that, & that the UK can afford it.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

xabiachica said:


> If they are studying exactly how much it would cost if they paid the _actual _cost of healthcare, I suspect that the the UK might be in for a shock & realise what a good deal it has atm.
> 
> Spain & other EU countries might not be happy for the current model to continue. On the basis of this report I'd be willing to bet that they might want to send actual bills to the UK for payment.
> 
> ...


Quite so. If they ask Spain and other countries to provide figures showing how much it actually costs to provide healthcare to all British OAPs with S1s resident in those countries, it might alert those countries (if they aren't already well aware) to the fact that they are currently having to make up a shortfall in addition to the payments they receive from the UK.

Of course, the real cost of providing this care in Spain rather than the prospect of most of those OAPs having to head back to Britain for NHS treatment might still prove to be lower. They'd have to fund 100% of prescription costs for those pensioners, for a start, whereas in Spain the pensioners have to contribute 10% of the cost.


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> Odd that Spain should be singled out. Though I guess with so many Brits in Spain they might think it is a 'special case'. It isn't of course. The arrangement is the same in Spain as in all other EU countries.
> 
> It's a bit of a worry that someone feels that a 'major study' is needed though. It's simple at the moment. The UK issues S1s to pensioners & pays the EU country in which they live a fixed amount per annum per S1.
> 
> ...


Well, the actual cost of health care, that is, the actual bills for each service, is most certainly what had occurred to me. (I would be reluctant to use the term 'real cost' because that becomes really complex if you try to take everything into account). Of course, there is always the potential for negotiation, which is what I assume originally occurred with the S1 funding arrangement.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

jojo said:


> So maybe this will be the negotiation point to help those British expats living in the EU ?
> 
> Every EU migrant can stay in UK after Brexit: all 3.6 million to have residency rules or get amnesty
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting this link because at the end of the article there appears that hilarious video tweeted by the Telegraph a while back, "100 reasons to embrace Brexit" - including cheaper tennis balls, more Indian doctors and better hangover cures. Do watch it if you haven't already.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> Thanks for posting this link because at the end of the article there appears that hilarious video tweeted by the Telegraph a while back, "100 reasons to embrace Brexit" - including cheaper tennis balls, more Indian doctors and better hangover cures. Do watch it if you haven't already.


I hadn't.
Words fail me. 
Actually one word comes to mind.
Unbelievable.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

I Hate The Colour Pink said:


> What is the name of the company? I heave read a post which says a couple had insurance but *because there was an element of payment to see a Dr it could not be used to get Residensia* is that true?


Health insurance for the purposes of signing on the Foreigners' register must be without 'co-pay'


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## Tigerlillie (Apr 7, 2015)

Alcalaina said:


> Thanks for posting this link because at the end of the article there appears that hilarious video tweeted by the Telegraph a while back, "100 reasons to embrace Brexit" - including cheaper tennis balls, more Indian doctors and better hangover cures. Do watch it if you haven't already.


I have just watched it. Wow. Speechless. With laughter.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

jojo said:


> So maybe this will be the negotiation point to help those British expats living in the EU ?
> 
> Every EU migrant can stay in UK after Brexit: all 3.6 million to have residency rules or get amnesty
> 
> ...


 
"after the Home Office discovered that five in six could not legally be deported" How do they "discover" it ? Why do they not already know ? I do/did & have done for years & they were also told Here;

https://ukconstitutionallaw.org/2015/04/17/sionaidh-douglas-scott-constitutional-implications-of-a-uk-exit-from-the-eu-some-questions-that-really-must-be-asked/

That 5 years & over had "vested rights"


& here;
Emigration: Why British expats have nothing to fear from Brexit - Telegraph


Those EU citizens already in the UK for 5 years & over have the same rights, subject to their country having signed the relevant Vienna convention as all this comes under the 1969 'Vienna convention on Treaties'.Spain is a signatory.

" House of Commons Library note clarified: “Generally speaking, withdrawing from a treaty releases the parties from any future obligations to each other, but does not affect any rights or obligations acquired under it before withdrawal.”
Therefore, the EU’s freedom of movement rights would be honoured for all those citizens who reside in other EEA nations prior to any Treaty changes. Furthermore, the Greenland example also included a transitional period. This works both ways, and the UK’s Vienna Convention obligations would prevent any government from deporting migrants who came to the UK under the old system."


In the article it points out that the UK doesn't want EU citizens to "Flood in" before the brexit cut-off ,& therein lies the real truth of the matter. I ,personally, am sure that they know full well the rules & entitlements but do not wish to confirm t due to the likely influx of people hoping to get in before, & remain after , the cut off date.
They prefer to muddy the waters with untrue & ludicrous statements! 
Now the article states , they are concerned about "how to identify/prove " the entitlement of those already in the UK ? 
Well ,if they had used the existing EU rules to register those EU nationals in the UK ,like Spain ;Greece ,etc; do, then not only would they know but they wouldn't be having to pay benefits & assistance to any that hadn't managed to qualify & quite possibly we wouldn't have needed a referendum ?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Just a thought about getting an Irish passport...what will happen to your 'free' health care if the British Government decides to continue this for British citizens?
Will the ROI pay instead?


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Just a thought about getting an Irish passport...what will happen to your 'free' health care if the British Government decides to continue this for British citizens?
> Will the ROI pay instead?


I doubt having an Irish passport will make any difference, as holders will have retained their British citizenship (plus I doubt that the UK would even be aware of those of its citizens with Irish Passports) - so if the UK decides to continue paying health care for British pensioner citizens, nothing should change. BTW, as it is, all residents of Northern Ireland are entitled to an Irish passport. I doubt the ROI would pay for the health care of those who have Irish passports and have not lived in Ireland. As it is, the UK does not pay for the health care of those of its citizens that do not have a British pension.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> Just a thought about getting an Irish passport...what will happen to your 'free' health care if the British Government decides to continue this for British citizens?
> Will the ROI pay instead?


We have dual nationality so still a UK citizen, so I would have thought that will not change
:fingerscrossed:


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## uora (Jul 19, 2011)

Megsmum said:


> We have dual nationality so still a UK citizen, so I would have thought that will not change
> :fingerscrossed:


I don't know much about health care in Spain for the British/Irish but I know that the nationality is important in other ways as in paying taxes/pensions. I'll take Sweden as an example 
If you receive a Swedish pension and are of Swedish nationality living in Spain, you have to pay taxes both in Sweden and in Spain. You get the money back from Sweden after you've paid the Spanish taxes but you need to have enough money to pay the same taxes two times - first 20% of your income in Sweden and then maybe 24% of the same income in Spain. If you are not Swedish, you only pay in Spain.

This deal between Spain and Sweden also says that you can bring a Swedish pension to Spain but you can't take a Spanish pension with you to Sweden..

Norway and France have other but similar rules for this and I guess there are deals between U.K. and Spain, Ireland and Spain too. They are probably called something like "double taxation deals". I just wanted to say that changing nationality can have other implications than just health care and that I hope you've looked into this as well.


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

uora said:


> I don't know much about health care in Spain for the British/Irish but I know that the nationality is important in other ways as in paying taxes/pensions. I'll take Sweden as an example
> If you receive a Swedish pension and are of Swedish nationality living in Spain, you have to pay taxes both in Sweden and in Spain. You get the money back from Sweden after you've paid the Spanish taxes but you need to have enough money to pay the same taxes two times - first 20% of your income in Sweden and then maybe 24% of the same income in Spain. If you are not Swedish, you only pay in Spain.
> 
> This deal between Spain and Sweden also says that you can bring a Swedish pension to Spain but you can't take a Spanish pension with you to Sweden..
> ...


There are tax agreements / tax treaties between many countries.

However, US citizens always have to submit a tax declaration no matter where they live, unless their income is below the threshhold. As I understand it, that's nothing to do with tax agreements or other countries, it's purely a US IRS matter.


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

Do expats living in New Zealand/Australia/Canada/USA have their medical bills paid by the UK. Those countries are not in the EU but the bottom line is some brits have chosen to leave the UK and live in another country so why should 'we' pay after brexit? Come to that why should we pay before brexit? You moved so you pay IMHO. Can't afford to pay? then stay in the UK and rely on the NHS.


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## uora (Jul 19, 2011)

EverHopeful said:


> There are tax agreements / tax treaties between many countries.
> 
> However, US citizens always have to submit a tax declaration no matter where they live, unless their income is below the threshhold. As I understand it, that's nothing to do with tax agreements or other countries, it's purely a US IRS matter.


I'm sorry I couldn't explain this better but in some treaties the nationality is important and the reason why you have to pay taxes here or there.
From the Spanish-British:


> b) However, such pensions and other similar remuneration shall be taxable only in the other Contracting State if the individual is a resident of, and a national of, that State.


https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ent_data/file/507409/spain-dtc_-_in_force.pdf

And from the Spanish-Irish


> However, such pension shall be taxable only in the other Contracting State if the individual is a resident of and a national of that State


http://www.revenue.ie/en/practitioner/law/double/spain.pdf


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

EverHopeful said:


> I doubt having an Irish passport will make any difference, as holders will have retained their British citizenship (plus I doubt that the UK would even be aware of those of its citizens with Irish Passports) - so if the UK decides to continue paying health care for British pensioner citizens, nothing should change. BTW, as it is, all residents of Northern Ireland are entitled to an Irish passport. I doubt the ROI would pay for the health care of those who have Irish passports and have not lived in Ireland. As it is, the UK does not pay for the health care of those of its citizens that do not have a British pension.


yes, it's linked to NI contributions not nationality

If a British person has never worked in Britain there would be no British pension, but anyone of any nationality who has, gets a British pension


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

bob_bob said:


> Do expats living in New Zealand/Australia/Canada/USA have their medical bills paid by the UK. Those countries are not in the EU but the bottom line is some brits have chosen to leave the UK and live in another country so why should 'we' pay after brexit? Come to that why should we pay before brexit? You moved so you pay IMHO. Can't afford to pay? then stay in the UK and rely on the NHS.


I do see your point, but anyone moving to those countries knew the deal BEFORE they moved, & made that choice

Anyone who moved to an EU country with an S1 has had their healthcare paid by the UK - that's the deal. EU countries will pay the healthcare in the UK of anyone with an S1, should the UK claim it ( I read somewhere that they don't - seems stupid to me that they wouldn't though). 

The goalposts changed/could change/will probably change through no fault of their own, & many (most?) didn't vote for the UK to leave. Many couldn't even vote. I personally know some here who DID vote to leave who hadn't realised that they might have to start paying for their healthcare & are seriously worried that they might have to return to the UK. One in particular has many ongoing health problems, so wouldn't be able to get private insurance covering those conditions. The _convenio especial _would cost more than they can afford too, & they would go from getting free prescriptions to having to pay the full costs.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

uora said:


> I don't know much about health care in Spain for the British/Irish but I know that the nationality is important in other ways as in paying taxes/pensions. I'll take Sweden as an example
> If you receive a Swedish pension and are of Swedish nationality living in Spain, you have to pay taxes both in Sweden and in Spain. You get the money back from Sweden after you've paid the Spanish taxes but you need to have enough money to pay the same taxes two times - first 20% of your income in Sweden and then maybe 24% of the same income in Spain. If you are not Swedish, you only pay in Spain.
> 
> This deal between Spain and Sweden also says that you can bring a Swedish pension to Spain but you can't take a Spanish pension with you to Sweden..
> ...



I am not concerned, and my Irish Passport is a backup. I did look at this and Spain has a double tax agreement with many many countries, both inside the EU and outside the EU in fact, the agreement with Ireland was before the agreement with the UK and is the same principle. My pension will be processed through the Spanish ministry here and then my UK pension will kick in.

I am not getting an Irish passport for healthcare reasons,how having an Irish passport helps me with healthcare I do not know and because personally, I believe the UK will no longer fund future retirees health care.
My Irish passport and dual nationality will give me the freedom to stay and work in Spain, nothing else matters because all those agreements on tax and healthcare could and can be changed at any time by either side,


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

EverHopeful said:


> There are tax agreements / tax treaties between many countries.
> 
> However, US citizens always have to submit a tax declaration no matter where they live, unless their income is below the threshhold. As I understand it, that's nothing to do with tax agreements or other countries, it's purely a US IRS matter.


 Yes. Tax agreements are agreed by individual countries. Nothing to do with EU.


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## uora (Jul 19, 2011)

Isobella said:


> Yes. Tax agreements are agreed by individual countries. Nothing to do with EU.


Yes, that is correct. However, if people change nationality because of Brexit, it will have effects on other parts of their life like taxation/pensions and I think they should know about this before they make the change. I know that UK allows double citizenships but all countries don't accept this.


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

uora said:


> Yes, that is correct. However, if people change nationality because of Brexit, it will have effects on other parts of their life like taxation/pensions and I think they should know about this before they make the change. I know that UK allows double citizenships but all countries don't accept this.


But we are talking about taking an additional nationality and retaining UK citizenship - not *changing *nationality.

Edit:

If you take Irish nationality, you are not required to give up your UK nationality. Even if you take Spanish nationality, you do not in fact lose your British nationality (there is a formal process to do so, meaning that even if Spain no longer recognises your British citizenship, the UK does unless you go through the formal process with the UK).


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

xabiachica said:


> I do see your point, but anyone moving to those countries knew the deal BEFORE they moved, & made that choice
> 
> Anyone who moved to an EU country with an S1 has had their healthcare paid by the UK - that's the deal. EU countries will pay the healthcare in the UK of anyone with an S1, should the UK claim it ( I read somewhere that they don't - seems stupid to me that they wouldn't though).
> 
> The goalposts changed/could change/will probably change through no fault of their own, & many (most?) didn't vote for the UK to leave. Many couldn't even vote. I personally know some here who DID vote to leave who hadn't realised that they might have to start paying for their healthcare & are seriously worried that they might have to return to the UK. One in particular has many ongoing health problems, so wouldn't be able to get private insurance covering those conditions. The _convenio especial _would cost more than they can afford too, & they would go from getting free prescriptions to having to pay the full costs.


But...we are leaving the EU and things may change, thats life. I'm no fan of propping up anyone who leaves the UK, they leave so they need to sort out their own health care...in fact its blooming cheeky to expect dosh from the UK bar your pension.

I voted stay and I honestly believe the UK is going to need all the money it can find after Brexit. I was listening to R4 last week and whoever was being interviewed said the pound will drop to parity with the euro or even less and this will be long term and that London will 'loose power' as a financial centre plus Japanese car manufacturers who employ 200,000 in the UK will likely pack up and move to Europe.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

bob_bob said:


> But...we are leaving the EU and things may change, thats life. I'm no fan of propping up anyone who leaves the UK, they leave so they need to sort out their own health care...in fact its blooming cheeky to expect dosh from the UK bar your pension.
> 
> I voted stay and I honestly believe the UK is going to need all the money it can find after Brexit. I was listening to R4 last week and whoever was being interviewed said the pound will drop to parity with the euro or even less and this will be long term and that London will 'loose power' as a financial centre plus Japanese car manufacturers who employ 200,000 in the UK will likely pack up and move to Europe.


So what about the possibility that the vast majority of those British pensioners currently living in Spain would probably be forced to move back to the UK if they had to fund their own healthcare (as it would be so much more expensive to take out private insurance at their age, especially with pre-existing conditions, and even paying into the state system via the Convenio Especial would cost €314 per month for a pensioner couple, plus full cost of all medications)? That would put considerable extra strain on the NHS as they would be immediately entitled to comprehensive free care there, plus totally free prescriptions. Funding all of that would most probably cost the UK Government more than the €2,900 per head it currently pays to Spain for their healthcare. Remember, one of our members recently told us of the chemotherapy treatment his wife is currently receiving, costing €125,000 per year. That cost would fall on the NHS if they had to move back. Rather a self-defeating prospect, it seems to me.

I agree with you the UK Government is going to need all the money it can lay it's hands on due to the likely effects of Brexit, so why land themselves with an additional bill when they are getting a good deal at the moment?

Of course, if the day comes when the UK Government decides it is no longer affordable to fund care which is free at the point of use, from cradle to grave, and either charges are introduced or a compulsory insurance scheme is brought in, then funding free healthcare for pensioners who live abroad will cease too, no question about that.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Of course, all those returning pensioners would also be able to claim the WFA which they lost whilst living here (adding 18M per year back to the UK Government's costs if reports of how much the cuts saved are to be believed), plus free bus passes and free TV licences for the over 75s. Some of them might even be able to claim Pension Credit which they cannot whilst living here, and to turn to Social Services for help they may need in the home (increasing the number of migrant workers which would be needed to provide that care?). Of course all those things may not be available in the UK for ever, but the money those OAPs save the UK by not living there will keep them available a bit longer than they otherwise might be.

This seems a lot like the argument about allowing EU immigrants to claim child benefit for children living in other EU countries to me. If they brought their children to live with them in the UK then they'd all need school places and health treatment, plus the families would need larger living accommodation so the Housing Benefit bill would go up, and the Child Benefit would still have to be paid anyway. Paying the child benefit for the children in their own countries is actually the cheaper option for Britain.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

bob_bob said:


> ....
> 
> I voted stay and I honestly believe the UK is going to need all the money it can find after Brexit. I was listening to R4 last week and whoever was being interviewed said the pound will drop to parity with the euro or even less and this will be long term and that London will 'loose power' as a financial centre plus Japanese car manufacturers who employ 200,000 in the UK will likely pack up and move to Europe.


I'd have thought that an ultra-weak pound would encourage the car manufacturers to stay. Cost of building a car in the UK has already dropped by over 20% over the last year, just because of the falling pound.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Chopera said:


> I'd have thought that an ultra-weak pound would encourage the car manufacturers to stay. Cost of building a car in the UK has already dropped by over 20% over the last year, just because of the falling pound.


But it hasn't because of all the raw materials that have to be imported.


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

Chopera said:


> I'd have thought that an ultra-weak pound would encourage the car manufacturers to stay. Cost of building a car in the UK has already dropped by over 20% over the last year, just because of the falling pound.


I'd be interested to see that report if you have the link. It's hard to see how a falling pound could result in lower car-building costs.


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

Lynn R said:


> Of course, all those returning pensioners would also be able to claim the WFA which they lost whilst living here (adding 18M per year back to the UK Government's costs if reports of how much the cuts saved are to be believed), plus free bus passes and free TV licences for the over 75s. Some of them might even be able to claim Pension Credit which they cannot whilst living here, and to turn to Social Services for help they may need in the home (increasing the number of migrant workers which would be needed to provide that care?). Of course all those things may not be available in the UK for ever, but the money those OAPs save the UK by not living there will keep them available a bit longer than they otherwise might be.
> 
> This seems a lot like the argument about allowing EU immigrants to claim child benefit for children living in other EU countries to me. If they brought their children to live with them in the UK then they'd all need school places and health treatment, plus the families would need larger living accommodation so the Housing Benefit bill would go up, and the Child Benefit would still have to be paid anyway. Paying the child benefit for the children in their own countries is actually the cheaper option for Britain.


Come back to what ? There is a cronic housing shortage and the days of going back to blighty, getting instant cash and a home are well and truly over  Brexit is going to hit the UK hard, perhaps harder economically than WW2.


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## JulyB (Jul 18, 2011)

I read this earlier -

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/11/crash-pound-delusion-brexit-britain-flourish

The part below is kind of relevant -



> Other manufacturers still work in Britain – but typically they assemble components made elsewhere. That is true of our car industry, and it is true of JCB, the company David Cameron used to love touting in India and China. In 1979, 96% of a JCB digger was made here. By 2010, that had dropped to 36%.


So even in industry they aren't actually building anything, they're putting together components made by other manufacturers in other countries with the import costs that are rising daily. By the way, the chairman of JCB was a supporter of the Leave campaign, so don't feel bad for them. Just the staff that will eventually get laid off if costs don't balance out.


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

The reality, of course, is that not all UK OAPs living in the EU would return to the UK. Some might be forced to for financial reasons, others have sufficient means to remain (although if all their income derives from the UK they may well feel the pain). 

If access to the French health system remains as is and the UK discontinues S1s with France, that would result in a financial burden to France as contributions are linked to income. Of course, the impact on Spain would be far greater.

However, what the UK government chooses to do, remains to be seen. And, of course, it could always change the arrangement in the future.

I would say, though, that those OAPs who can't afford to pay to access the Spanish health system now may find themselves in far greater difficulty should the pound drop further against the Euro and may have to return even if the UK does continue to pay for their S1s.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

baldilocks said:


> But it hasn't because of all the raw materials that have to be imported.


Raw materials take up less than 50% of the cost of building a car, and not all of the raw materials are imported. Difficult to come to an exact figure, but my point still holds.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

EverHopeful said:


> The reality, of course, is that not all UK OAPs living in the EU would return to the UK. Some might be forced to for financial reasons, others have sufficient means to remain (although if all their income derives from the UK they may well feel the pain).
> 
> If access to the French health system remains as is and the UK discontinues S1s with France, that would result in a financial burden to France as contributions are linked to income. Of course, the impact on Spain would be far greater.
> 
> ...


That's right, the better off ones will have the resources to fund their own health care and although they will suffer a drop in their disposable incomes, probably not enough to force them to leave.

It will be the less well off ones (and the ones with the most severe health problems) who will have no other option. A lot of them won't even have enough income to pay tax in Britain, and they certainly won't be spending a fortune if they return to live there, so the argument that their return would actually benefit the UK economy is a weak one, IMO. There may be a shortage of housing in the UK, but does anybody really think the Government would like front page stores of OAPs forced to sleep under bridges? At worst they'd be paying to put them in budget hotels much as they are doing for refugees and asylum seekers now. And no matter where they'd be living (with children or other relatives, perhaps) they'd still be entitled to NHS treatment.


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

Lynn R said:


> That's right, the better off ones will have the resources to fund their own health care and although they will suffer a drop in their disposable incomes, probably not enough to force them to leave.
> 
> It will be the less well off ones who will have no other option. A lot of them won't even have enough income to pay tax in Britain, and they certainly won't be spending a fortune if they return to live there, so the argument that their return would actually benefit the UK economy is a weak one, IMO. There may be a shortage of housing in the UK, but does anybody really think the Government would like front page stores of OAPs forced to sleep under bridges? At worst they'd be paying to put them in budget hotels much as they are doing for refugees and asylum seekers now. And no matter where they'd be living (with children or other relatives, perhaps) they'd still be entitled to NHS treatment.


I don't think for one moment that their return would benefit the UK economy. However, I wonder if some of them would even be able to fund their return (I have heard of British pensions in France doing it tough but unable to return because their properties are virtually unsellable - though I think there is some British organisation that tries to assist these sorts of people). Certainly, few would be able to buy or rent a home in the current market if they did return. Would/could these people have to individually appeal to the British government to house them? And would that not create an uproar in the UK (granting something not available to others)?


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

JulyB said:


> I read this earlier -
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/11/crash-pound-delusion-brexit-britain-flourish


Yes I read that rather flawed article earlier. He on the one hand correctly points out that the UK economy is unbalanced, while on the other hand claims the weak pound is bad.



JulyB said:


> The part below is kind of relevant -
> 
> 
> 
> So even in industry they aren't actually building anything, they're putting together components made by other manufacturers in other countries with the import costs that are rising daily. By the way, the chairman of JCB was a supporter of the Leave campaign, so don't feel bad for them. Just the staff that will eventually get laid off if costs don't balance out.


Last time I checked, building something does indeed involve putting components together. And if the import costs on components are high then manufacturers switch to local producers - which is good for the local economy. Manufacturing is highly modular precisely to enable companies to switch suppliers easily and create competition.

Of course this is an over-simplification, but if you really disagree I'd like to hear how you think a strong currency is good for manufacturing, and will help the UK rebalance its economy.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Pensioners who return (many seem to do for end of life care and/or treatment) would at least be spending in the UK. Perhaps a lot paying taxes to UK too.


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## JulyB (Jul 18, 2011)

Chopera said:


> Yes I read that rather flawed article earlier. He on the one hand correctly points out that the UK economy is unbalanced, while on the other hand claims the weak pound is bad.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, don't put words in my mouth, I'm not arguing that the strong pound was great either. I would say that the pound falling through the floor is rattling people and they're trying to find an upside somewhere. Which is fine. Low pound, cheaper exports. That much is true. The point is that now the economy is under pressure, everyone is running about yelling 'It's fine! Exports will save us all!' Except there's no guarantee that this is at all true. 

I'm sure that changing supplier works fine if anyone local is actually making the exact kind of components needed. Which may not be the case. This also may come to be an especially important issue if the UK start charging import tariffs after Brexit. If the economy is depressed, it will also be less viable for people to set up new businesses making components, as the economic risk to them and their families will seem more of a danger and these concerns will put them off. I know that some people are already far less confident about setting up new businesses or expanding in the UK than they were in the spring.

However, more to the point - there's nothing to stop companies planning now to simply move their future manufacturing operations abroad, where costs are fewer, labour is cheaper and import costs may soon be lower, or at least more stable. And this is, in fact, what a lot of them are already considering doing.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

EverHopeful said:


> I don't think for one moment that their return would benefit the UK economy. However, I wonder if some of them would even be able to fund their return (I have heard of British pensions in France doing it tough but unable to return because their properties are virtually unsellable - though I think there is some British organisation that tries to assist these sorts of people). Certainly, few would be able to buy or rent a home in the current market if they did return. Would/could these people have to individually appeal to the British government to house them? And would that not create an uproar in the UK (granting something not available to others)?


Interesting point. Clearly many elderly expats are trying to sell in Spain, I know a few. Would they be allowed HB if they rented privately in Uk.?


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

JulyB said:


> Yeah, don't put words in my mouth, I'm not arguing that the strong pound was great either. I would say that the pound falling through the floor is rattling people and they're trying to find an upside somewhere. Which is fine. Low pound, cheaper exports. That much is true. The point is that now the economy is under pressure, everyone is running about yelling 'It's fine! Exports will save us all!' Except there's no guarantee that this is at all true.
> 
> I'm sure that changing supplier works fine if anyone local is actually making the exact kind of components needed. Which may not be the case. This also may come to be an especially important issue if the UK start charging import tariffs after Brexit. If the economy is depressed, it will also be less viable for people to set up new businesses making components, as the economic risk to them and their families will seem more of a danger and these concerns will put them off. I know that some people are already far less confident about setting up new businesses or expanding in the UK than they were in the spring.
> However, more to the point - there's nothing to stop companies planning now to simply move their future manufacturing operations abroad, where costs are fewer, labour is cheaper and import costs may soon be lower, or at least more stable. And this is, in fact, what a lot of them are already considering doing.


Have to ask why they did not do it before. Of course there are other considerations, taxes, ease of doing business etc.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

JulyB said:


> I read this earlier -
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/11/crash-pound-delusion-brexit-britain-flourish
> 
> ...


The Company sells to 160 countries, I presume they know the score. This week it resigned from the CBI for "it's flawed anti Brexit stance and misinformation"


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Isobella said:


> Interesting point. Clearly many elderly expats are trying to sell in Spain, I know a few. Would they be allowed HB if they rented privately in Uk.?


In theory no, because if you have assets worth more than £16,000 you are not eligible for HB.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Isobella said:


> Interesting point. Clearly many elderly expats are trying to sell in Spain, I know a few. Would they be allowed HB if they rented privately in Uk.?


The rules may have changed more recently, but I know one person who returned to the UK, jobless, following a marriage break-up, leaving the marital home unsold in Spain. She had to provide evidence that the house was on the market for sale, but was allowed to claim benefits including HB.

It was claimed that many thousands of expat pensioners returned to the UK after the financial crash, and homes in Spain were probably more difficult to sell then than they are now. Since I haven't heard reports of hordes of homeless British OAPs they must all have been accommodated somewhere.


PS It could possibly be that if someone is allowed to claim HB in these circumstances, then if the property is sold in the future they could be required to pay it back from the proceeds of the sale. The person I knew did rent privately, by the way.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

JulyB said:


> Yeah, don't put words in my mouth, I'm not arguing that the strong pound was great either. I would say that the pound falling through the floor is rattling people and they're trying to find an upside somewhere. Which is fine. Low pound, cheaper exports. That much is true. The point is that now the economy is under pressure, everyone is running about yelling 'It's fine! Exports will save us all!' Except there's no guarantee that this is at all true.


By criticising a weak currency you implicitly argue that it should be stronger. You can't have it both ways. My own opinion (for what it's worth) is that the UK economy obviously does face potential risks, but the weak pound is really doing it nothing but good. It has to rebalance, everyone seems agreed on that, and a currency devaluation certainly helps (although it won't prevent pain in the short term).




JulyB said:


> I'm sure that changing supplier works fine if anyone local is actually making the exact kind of components needed. Which may not be the case. This also may come to be an especially important issue if the UK start charging import tariffs after Brexit. If the economy is depressed, it will also be less viable for people to set up new businesses making components, as the economic risk to them and their families will seem more of a danger and these concerns will put them off. I know that some people are already far less confident about setting up new businesses or expanding in the UK than they were in the spring.


But the lack of confidence would de due to the Brexit vote, not the weak pound.



JulyB said:


> However, more to the point - there's nothing to stop companies planning now to simply move their future manufacturing operations abroad, where costs are fewer, labour is cheaper and import costs may soon be lower, or at least more stable. And this is, in fact, what a lot of them are already considering doing.


But a weaker currency would surely make them less likely to consider moving to another country. I can understand why Brexit might make manufacturers feel uneasy, but not the weak pound. The weak pound is to an extent offsetting these fears as much as reflecting them.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

duplicate


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

bob_bob said:


> Do expats living in New Zealand/Australia/Canada/USA have their medical bills paid by the UK. Those countries are not in the EU but the bottom line is some brits have chosen to leave the UK and live in another country so why should 'we' pay after brexit? Come to that why should we pay before brexit? You moved so you pay IMHO. Can't afford to pay? then stay in the UK and rely on the NHS.


Has to continue for those already receiving it as it comes under "vested rights".


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Chopera said:


> I'd have thought that an ultra-weak pound would encourage the car manufacturers to stay. Cost of building a car in the UK has already dropped by over 20% over the last year, just because of the falling pound.


How does that work then ? If I import materials at a cost of say 1400€ Last December I would have to pay £1000 for those parts . Now they cost me nearly £1400. 

I would only gain if I was then selling it in to the EU?


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Isobella said:


> Pensioners who return (many seem to do for end of life care and/or treatment) would at least be spending in the UK. Perhaps a lot paying taxes to UK too.


They'd have to have an income of 12k or over to pay any tax at all. I bet not many pensioner couples who would be contemplating having to return have a combined income of 24k sterling or more.

You know all those migrant workers who you say are not net contributors to the UK because they get more in benefits than they pay in? Well, poorer pensioners are in exactly that position because the bulk of their income comes from the state pension (which the Government now classes as welfare spending, whether we like it or not). Add to that all the associated pensioner benefits plus spending on their healthcare. End of life care and treatment for the most serious conditions will cost far more than the average per capita spend on healthcare in the UK.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Some interesting figures regarding how much the UK spends on NHS treatment for pensioners. The average spend per person aged 85 or over is more than 7k per year - a lot more than they're paying Spain for treating any pensioners in that age group.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/feb/01/ageing-britain-two-fifths-nhs-budget-spent-over-65s


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Lynn R said:


> Some interesting figures regarding how much the UK spends on NHS treatment for pensioners. The average spend per person aged 85 or over is more than 7k per year - a lot more than they're paying Spain for treating any pensioners in that age group.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/feb/01/ageing-britain-two-fifths-nhs-budget-spent-over-65s


The claim is that the bill for aged males is considerably more per head than for females, but what is not noted is the fact that the females tend to live longer, thus balancing things out.


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## JulyB (Jul 18, 2011)

Chopera said:


> By criticising a weak currency you implicitly argue that it should be stronger. You can't have it both ways. My own opinion (for what it's worth) is that the UK economy obviously does face potential risks, but the weak pound is really doing it nothing but good. It has to rebalance, everyone seems agreed on that, and a currency devaluation certainly helps (although it won't prevent pain in the short term).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The pound weakening just shows that the argument that everything is going to continue as normal is bull. It shows that people out there are looking at the UK and not seeing it as such a viable economy. And one of those consequences, as I said, will probably be companies upping sticks.

As I have said, much as you continue to ignore me saying it, the pound weakening helps exports. I am agreeing with you. However, it doesn't help make imports cheaper, and companies have to import before they can export. I don't get why you are ignoring this so studiously. And if the pound goes down too far, and they can't get their supplies cheaply from British companies, the balance will not make economic sense and they will leave. If production costs go up because fuel costs rocket, they will leave. And the pound is now rapidly heading for $1.20, and Brexit hasn't even begun to begin.

It's like you're so keen on disagreement that you're not actually reading what I'm saying. *sigh*


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

JulyB said:


> The pound weakening just shows that the argument that everything is going to continue as normal is bull. It shows that people out there are looking at the UK and not seeing it as such a viable economy. And one of those consequences, as I said, will probably be companies upping sticks.


Who is saying everything is going to continue as normal? I think everybody acknowledges that the UK is in for a difficult period. My point is that you can't use the value of the pound as evidence for the UK economy performing badly right now, nor can you say that the low pound will cause the UK economy to perform badly. It just reflects that there's a large amount of uncertainty about the UK's economic future, and a higher risk of severe problems.



JulyB said:


> As I have said, much as you continue to ignore me saying it, the pound weakening helps exports. I am agreeing with you. However, it doesn't help make imports cheaper, and companies have to import before they can export. I don't get why you are ignoring this so studiously. And if the pound goes down too far, and they can't get their supplies cheaply from British companies, the balance will not make economic sense and they will leave. If production costs go up because fuel costs rocket, they will leave. And the pound is now rapidly heading for $1.20, and Brexit hasn't even begun to begin.
> 
> It's like you're so keen on disagreement that you're not actually reading what I'm saying. *sigh*


I haven't ignored it. I've said repeatedly that import costs are higher, but as I have also repeatedly pointed out, overall the benefits outweigh the downsides. If you think of manufacturing as adding some value to some piece of material that is imported and then exported, the real benefit of a currency devaluation is in the reduced labour costs, plant costs, logistics, and possibly tax costs as well.

This is the point that the article you linked to fails to point out: 
çhttps://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/11/crash-pound-delusion-brexit-britain-flourish


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Don't know how this has turned into a currency discussion but my opinion is there is something very strange about the fall. Brexit hasn't happened yet (as remainers point out when good figures have been coming out). No reason for it to fall so low, the U.K. Is doing better than most Countries, it did not happen immediately after TMs Monday speech. Some blame Hollande's threats but aside from him being a limp President who may not be around, many more including Merkel and the German Foreign Minister have said the same or worse. Then we have our own bunch of gloomers, Carney and Hammond talking down the Country, something that other Countries never do.

Then there is the algorithms theory. It happened at 7am Singapore time. An hour when New York traders are filling up the bar and Asia is just having breakfast....the twilight hour. Thin trading is when markets can be manipulated. Happened at the same time with the South African Rand not long ago. Perhaps there is another Soros around. He shorted the Pound before. Or a Central bank from another Country? A Times article said was someone making mischief.....

Carney didn't help when he began QE and cut the interest rate. He seems to have gone to ground was all over the media before the referendum! Meanwhile many Traders are predicting parity with the Dollar, although they have been wrong before.


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## JulyB (Jul 18, 2011)

Chopera said:


> Who is saying everything is going to continue as normal? I think everybody acknowledges that the UK is in for a difficult period. My point is that you can't use the value of the pound as evidence for the UK economy performing badly right now, nor can you say that the low pound will cause the UK economy to perform badly. It just reflects that there's a large amount of uncertainty about the UK's economic future, and a higher risk of severe problems.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think we basically agree on most of this.


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

Isobella said:


> Don't know how this has turned into a currency discussion but my opinion is there is something very strange about the fall. Brexit hasn't happened yet (as remainers point out when good figures have been coming out). No reason for it to fall so low, the U.K. Is doing better than most Countries, it did not happen immediately after TMs Monday speech. Some blame Hollande's threats but aside from him being a limp President who may not be around, many more including Merkel and the German Foreign Minister have said the same or worse. Then we have our own bunch of gloomers, Carney and Hammond talking down the Country, something that other Countries never do.
> 
> Then there is the algorithms theory. It happened at 7am Singapore time. An hour when New York traders are filling up the bar and Asia is just having breakfast....the twilight hour. Thin trading is when markets can be manipulated. Happened at the same time with the South African Rand not long ago. Perhaps there is another Soros around. He shorted the Pound before. Or a Central bank from another Country? A Times article said was someone making mischief.....
> 
> Carney didn't help when he began QE and cut the interest rate. He seems to have gone to ground was all over the media before the referendum! Meanwhile many Traders are predicting parity with the Dollar, although they have been wrong before.


Mark Carney has been doing his job as Governor of the BoE. Central Bank Governors are required to comment honestly on their view of the currency and manage such things as central interest rates, QE, etc in an attempt to stabilise/protect the currency for which they are responsible - at arms length from government. Whilst you may not agree with the approach of a given central bank governor, that doesn't mean they aren't doing their best in consultation with their boards. If you want to know his views, they will be reflected in each set of minutes of the Board.


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## mono (Jan 22, 2016)

There has been a cap on HB for private rentals for some years now, to discourage people from staying in lovely expensive houses and areas. There is also a bedroom tax for people with a spare room which decreases the HB again. So for example if you rent a house at £700 per month and the cap is £500 you will have to pay £200 per month from your own pension/benfits and there is no way round that.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mono said:


> There has been a cap on HB for private rentals for some years now, to discourage people from staying in lovely expensive houses and areas. There is also a bedroom tax for people with a spare room which decreases the HB again. So for example if you rent a house at £700 per month and the cap is £500 you will have to pay £200 per month from your own pension/benfits and there is no way round that.


Yes there is - you become an MP and claim it on expenses as being necessary to carry out your duties as an MP.


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

gus-lopez said:


> Has to continue for those already receiving it as it comes under "vested rights".


I thought 'vested rights' covered OAP pensions frozen at time of moving?


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## GrownupMomo (Nov 28, 2016)

lets think: how many british retired citizens (meaning old people needing health treatments in the future) are living in spain and how many spanish retired citizens go to live in UK? do you think UK receives more tourists than Spain? 
All of those people have not pay taxes in Spain, so its logical spain asks uk to give that money spent back.
I was living in Liverpool for a year and spent a week in a hospital unfortunately, i was given a oficial document in spain stating i was a Student scholarship holder and the spanish goverment would assumed the costs of any health treatment or social help i requested under the conditions and terms detailed in the international cooperation agreement established between the countries. meaning they asked to be refunded the cost of treating me to the spanish seguridad social. Needed is to say that the quality of the medical attention received and also the conditions of the facilities and medical equipment rates far a higher level in spain that it is in the uk


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

GrownupMomo said:


> lets think: how many british retired citizens (meaning old people needing health treatments in the future) are living in spain and how many spanish retired citizens go to live in UK? do you think UK receives more tourists than Spain?
> All of those people have not pay taxes in Spain, so its logical spain asks uk to give that money spent back.
> I was living in Liverpool for a year and spent a week in a hospital unfortunately, i was given a oficial document in spain stating i was a Student scholarship holder and the spanish goverment would assumed the costs of any health treatment or social help i requested under the conditions and terms detailed in the international cooperation agreement established between the countries. meaning they asked to be refunded the cost of treating me to the spanish seguridad social. Needed is to say that the quality of the medical attention received and also the conditions of the facilities and medical equipment rates far a higher level in spain that it is in the uk


Those UK pensioners who have registered with the Spanish health service by means of a form S1 will be having their healthcare paid for by the British government by means of a lump sum for every person thus registered. This may be more, or less, that what the actual healthcare cost actually is but works on a swings and roundabouts system.


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> Those UK pensioners who have registered with the Spanish health service by means of a form S1 will be having their healthcare paid for by the British government by means of a lump sum for every person thus registered. This may be more, or less, that what the actual healthcare cost actually is but works on a swings and roundabouts system.


But wasn't that the issue earlier in the thread? And didn't it start with a suggestion from Spain that the payment would need to be reviewed? And aren't there doubts about whether the UK would continue to pay post Brexit?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

EverHopeful said:


> But wasn't that the issue earlier in the thread? And didn't it start with a suggestion from Spain that the payment would need to be reviewed? And aren't there doubts about whether the UK would continue to pay post Brexit?


It was originally an article in some internet newspaper that screwed up the whole matter. Either the minister didn't know what he was talking about, or it referred to a post-Brexit situation or the article got it all screwed up by saying that we use the EHICs, etc, etc.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> It was originally an article in some internet newspaper that screwed up the whole matter. Either the minister didn't know what he was talking about, or it referred to a post-Brexit situation or the article got it all screwed up by saying that we use the EHICs, etc, etc.


The original article from The_ i_ Newspaper, which I posted, was about Spain's former foreign minister José Manuel Margallo saying that Britain should _continue_ to pay Spain for British citizens' healthcare after it has left the EU. This means via S1 for resident pensioners, and via EHIC for visitors. Why is that confusing?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> The original article from The_ i_ Newspaper, which I posted, was about Spain's former foreign minister José Manuel Margallo saying that Britain should _continue_ to pay Spain for British citizens' healthcare after it has left the EU. This means via S1 for resident pensioners, and via EHIC for visitors. Why is that confusing?


Because the article confuses pensioners on S1 with tourists by making a blanket statement about Brits in Spain using EHIC.



> Britain should pay medical bills for pensioners living in Spain, the country’s foreign minister has said. Speaking at an event in Alicante in the east of the country, José Manuel García-Margallo set forth one of Spain’s goals in Brexit negotiations set to commence by next March when Prime Minister Theresa May triggers Article 50. “We have to reach an agreement where residents can access (Spanish) healthcare services, but covered by the United Kingdom,” reported the EU news site Euractiv.
> 
> *Compromise solution *
> 
> ...


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> Because the article confuses pensioners on S1 with tourists by making a blanket statement about Brits in Spain using EHIC.





> At present, British citizens in Spain are entitled to free state-provided emergency healthcare using their EHIC (European Health Insurance Card).


But that statement is true. British citizens in Spain _can_ use EHIC if they aren't living here permanently. Far more Brits come as tourists than to retire, so it's a big deal for the Spanish government. They are worried tourism will drop if the Brits have to get private insurance.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

GrownupMomo said:


> lets think: how many british retired citizens (meaning old people needing health treatments in the future) are living in spain and how many spanish retired citizens go to live in UK? do you think UK receives more tourists than Spain?
> All of those people have not pay taxes in Spain, so its logical spain asks uk to give that money spent back.
> I was living in Liverpool for a year and spent a week in a hospital unfortunately, i was given a oficial document in spain stating i was a Student scholarship holder and the spanish goverment would assumed the costs of any health treatment or social help i requested under the conditions and terms detailed in the international cooperation agreement established between the countries. meaning they asked to be refunded the cost of treating me to the spanish seguridad social. Needed is to say that the quality of the medical attention received and also the conditions of the facilities and medical equipment rates far a higher level in spain that it is in the uk


The UK government pays a fixed sum to the Spanish government every year to pay for the healthcare of each retired UK citizen in Spain - it is about 4000 Euros I think.

I have heard that Spanish people do not know this and think they get healthcare for free.

(ETA just noticed that Baldi said more-or-less the same thing)


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> Because the article confuses pensioners on S1 with tourists by making a blanket statement about Brits in Spain using EHIC.





Alcalaina said:


> But that statement is true. British citizens in Spain _can_ use EHIC if they aren't living here permanently. Far more Brits come as tourists than to retire, so it's a big deal for the Spanish government. They are worried tourism will drop if the Brits have to get private insurance.


Yes it's true that tourists get care by way of the EHIC

I suspect any confusion lies in the headline referring to* 'expats'* who of course* cannot* *use the EHIC*, & the body of the article referring to the use of the EHIC

Afaik the EHIC issuing country is sent an actual bill for any treatment given, as opposed to the annual payment as per the S1 agreement.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jimenato said:


> The UK government pays a fixed sum to the Spanish government every year to pay for the healthcare of each retired UK citizen in Spain - it is about 4000 Euros I think.
> 
> I have heard that Spanish people do not know this and think they get healthcare for free.
> 
> (ETA just noticed that Baldi said more-or-less the same thing)


I've had (sometimes heated) conversations with centro de salud receptionists, nurses & even doctors who weren't aware of the S1 agreement & thought that we all got free healthcare 

I've also had grovelling apologies when they have gone away & checked up after I have told them the facts


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

GrownupMomo said:


> lets think: how many british retired citizens (meaning old people needing health treatments in the future) are living in spain and how many spanish retired citizens go to live in UK? do you think UK receives more tourists than Spain?
> All of those people have not pay taxes in Spain, so its logical spain asks uk to give that money spent back.
> I was living in Liverpool for a year and spent a week in a hospital unfortunately, i was given a oficial document in spain stating i was a Student scholarship holder and the spanish goverment would assumed the costs of any health treatment or social help i requested under the conditions and terms detailed in the international cooperation agreement established between the countries. meaning they asked to be refunded the cost of treating me to the spanish seguridad social. Needed is to say that the quality of the medical attention received and also the conditions of the facilities and medical equipment rates far a higher level in spain that it is in the uk


My partner and I have lived in Spain for over eight years. During that time the British Government has paid roughly 64000 euros to Spain to cover our health care.
My partner used Spanish healthcare after five years of living here. That was three years ago for a short period of treatment time. I had to use the system after four years of living here. I had two operations which cost under 900 euros for the two - we get a 'factura' here in Andalucia telling us how much our treatment has cost. 
I've had tests for a heart condition and for the past three years I go once a year for an ECG. I have a monthly prescription for which I pay the highest amount on the income scale
I'd say that or the two of us the Andalucian Health Service has received a payment from HMG of around 60000 euros. I'm happy with this, it will go to help an excellent health service.
We are both also tax resident here in Spain and 100% 'legal'.

Your post is inaccurate. Spain makes money from me and I'm happy with that.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

I've posted this somewhere else before but it's relevant here...
For years now Estepona offers a health service to all aged 55 and over free of charge if you're on the Padron. It's got a horrible name, Gabinete Geriatrico, but the service is excellent, the doctors and nurses all speak fluent English and we go once a month for a general weigh-in/check-up.
Loads of Brits use this and the last time we went I had a good look at the people in the waiting room, about half of them Brits.
My thought was 'If Theresa May could see this lot here, no way would she want to withdraw the healthcare for retired emigrants to Spain'.
I'm no spring chicken and certainly not an advert for healthy living but compared to 99% of those waiting I was like an Olympic athlete.....


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> My partner and I have lived in Spain for over eight years. During that time the British Government has paid roughly 64000 euros to Spain to cover our health care.
> My partner used Spanish healthcare after five years of living here. That was three years ago for a short period of treatment time. I had to use the system after four years of living here. I had two operations which cost under 900 euros for the two - we get a 'factura' here in Andalucia telling us how much our treatment has cost.
> I've had tests for a heart condition and for the past three years I go once a year for an ECG. I have a monthly prescription for which I pay the highest amount on the income scale
> I'd say that or the two of us the Andalucian Health Service has received a payment from HMG of around 60000 euros. I'm happy with this, it will go to help an excellent health service.
> ...


But, as I'm sure you realise, whilst Spain 'makes money' from you, it loses in respect of a great many others. And, yes, that's what a social security health system is all about, however IMHO the issue really is the huge ageing population of Brits in Spain, whose medical treatment is likely to become more and more expensive as the years go by and it is not inconceivable that the payments from the UK do not, or soon will not, cover the real costs.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

EverHopeful said:


> But, as I'm sure you realise, whilst Spain 'makes money' from you, it loses in respect of a great many others. And, yes, that's what a social security health system is all about, however IMHO the issue really is the huge ageing population of Brits in Spain, whose medical treatment is likely to become more and more expensive as the years go by and it is not inconceivable that the payments from the UK do not, or soon will not, cover the real costs.


It would be nice to have some statistics on how many of these "ageing Brits" plan to return to the UK to live, or have gone already (anecdotally I know quite a few); also how many have two addresses and return to the UK for NHS treatment, and how many have private insurance. Then we would have a better idea of what the actual burden on Spain's health service is. Perhaps these figures will come to light at the point when we finally know what's happening post-Brexit.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

EverHopeful said:


> But, as I'm sure you realise, whilst Spain 'makes money' from you, it loses in respect of a great many others. And, yes, that's what a social security health system is all about, however IMHO the issue really is the huge ageing population of Brits in Spain, whose medical treatment is likely to become more and more expensive as the years go by and it is not inconceivable that the payments from the UK do not, or soon will not, cover the real costs.


They don't cover the real costs in the UK. 

When I first started nursing back in 1970something we were told about the ageing population. When I returned to nursing in the 90's it was still the hot topic. As with most governmental issues it has been permanently put on the back burner. Then came the crisis now it's on the front burner, in a few years it'll be on fire

Again, those of us over a certain age will probably not be affected, it will once more be the younger generation who will suffer the most


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> It would be nice to have some statistics on how many of these "ageing Brits" plan to return to the UK to live, or have gone already (anecdotally I know quite a few); also how many have two addresses and return to the UK for NHS treatment, and how many have private insurance. Then we would have a better idea of what the actual burden on Spain's health service is. Perhaps these figures will come to light at the point when we finally know what's happening post-Brexit.


The 'ageing Brits' no longer need two addresses (in order to lie that they still live in the UK so that they can use the NHS) if they are covered by the S1. They have full access to healthcare in Britain already as of April 2015.

It will or would indeed be interesting to know what the 'actual' costs are, the financial burden as you put it.

I know quite a few pensioners who maintain private healthcare as well as using the state system here.

I too know some who have firm plans to return to the UK, or are making plans such as selling their property now 'just in case'.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

EverHopeful said:


> But, as I'm sure you realise, whilst Spain 'makes money' from you, it loses in respect of a great many others. And, yes, that's what a social security health system is all about, however IMHO the issue really is the huge ageing population of Brits in Spain, whose medical treatment is likely to become more and more expensive as the years go by and it is not inconceivable that the payments from the UK do not, or soon will not, cover the real costs.


We'll probably never know the true picture but I hear what you are saying.

The few retired Brits I know here don't use the Spanish system, though, only those who've been here for years and have worked or are working.
So the NHS 'saves' quite a lot and Spain gains from my little circle..
It could be different in areas with fewer Brits who don't opt for private care, though.


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