# Motherland SA



## JairajVi (Jun 14, 2010)

Heya...

Was just wondering if anyone has moved back to SA recently, after living abroad for some time. Howz the feeling being back home...?
I've been here in NZwith my wife and kids for going 2 years now and we haven't visited since. The rest of our family are back 'home'. We miss them like crazy and I somehow feel that we've have robbed the kids and their grandparents from keeping them away from each other for the time that we are here.

Now with all of this playing on my mind, I really feel like packing up and going back home.

Just wanted to read some opinions of other expats that may have went back.:confused2:

Cheers


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## Saffiechic83 (May 6, 2010)

I'm single with no kids, so can't speak on that factor. However I used to live and work in London and refused to go back 'home', simply because my quality of life had been made drastically better away from the riffraff in SA. However due to visa reasons I had to return and although the year I spent back in SA was nice (mum's cooking, the weather), but I could not find a stable job so I was eager to get out again. Now I've been in Dubai for 2 years and only been back once for a week - itching to come back to Dubai half an hour after my plane landed in CPT.

The thing is of course that each person is different. For me, I would not return to SA to live and work. I have a friend who is already busy packing their bags as they plan to return to SA within the next month. And this also because they have just had a child and want the kid to grow up like they did and with the grand parents around. I few of my other friends often visit SA (as often as three times a year) and their reasons are also due to the fact that they have kids. So maybe, one day I'll go through that phase where I want my kids to grow up the way I did with grandma and grandpa a bit closer


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

The problem is that none of our children can have the lives we did.
The draw of giving the child a connection to Grannie and Grandpa and cousins is great,
the weather too is great iro of activities such as swimming and sports.

And all that is fine when the kids are small, you are going to be fetching and carrying anyway, attending and watching over them.
its when they get to the bicycle riding stage that it gets difficult, if, you are living in a boomed off estate, fine, but taking your bike or just hiving off into the veldt, or even just walking down to the local shop for an ice cream is no longer something I would allow my daughter to do.

it gets trickier later, when they get old enough to go to parties and discos and dating, especially iro of coming home late unless the hijacking at gates figures improve,
the other consideration is of course University, unless your child is in the top 9% of Matriculation marks he or she falls into the Affirmative action queue for places at Varsity.
(just been through this with two neices)

and if you decide its not working for you, Grandparents have passed on etc... leaving SA for the second time is incredibly expensive.
Two years is too short to make a decision, it takeas at least two years to settle in and you will never lose the "verlange" 
its part of what makes you, you need to look at why you left in the first place, wether what made you leave has actually changed, and wether another year is going to change things drastically.

It tok us three years to really settle in, its now the best thing we have ever done after 5.


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## mman (Nov 15, 2009)

Daxk said:


> the other consideration is of course University, unless your child is in the top 9% of Matriculation marks he or she falls into the Affirmative action queue for places at Varsity.


Yea but to be fair as long as you have semi decent marks its not that difficult to get into a university esp the private varsitys.


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## JairajVi (Jun 14, 2010)

Saffiechic83 said:


> I'm single with no kids, so can't speak on that factor. However I used to live and work in London and refused to go back 'home', simply because my quality of life had been made drastically better away from the riffraff in SA. However due to visa reasons I had to return and although the year I spent back in SA was nice (mum's cooking, the weather), but I could not find a stable job so I was eager to get out again. Now I've been in Dubai for 2 years and only been back once for a week - itching to come back to Dubai half an hour after my plane landed in CPT.
> 
> The thing is of course that each person is different. For me, I would not return to SA to live and work. I have a friend who is already busy packing their bags as they plan to return to SA within the next month. And this also because they have just had a child and want the kid to grow up like they did and with the grand parents around. I few of my other friends often visit SA (as often as three times a year) and their reasons are also due to the fact that they have kids. So maybe, one day I'll go through that phase where I want my kids to grow up the way I did with grandma and grandpa a bit closer


Thanx alot for all your responses....I guess gett'n used to the fact that being away from everyone is difficult, also plays a huge part in ones life that has relocated. 2 years ain't enough gett'n used to a foreign country...so it's like on a balance beam here...your life on this side of the world, together with your involvement with life and family on the other.

I know when and if I do go back to SA, we will have mixed emotions as well. We will also think that we made a mistake going back....but how does one contain with all these emotions all at once...?


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

mman said:


> Yea but to be fair as long as you have semi decent marks its not that difficult to get into a university esp the private varsitys.


And if you don't have the $$?


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

JairajVi said:


> Heya...
> 
> Was just wondering if anyone has moved back to SA recently, after living abroad for some time. Howz the feeling being back home...?
> I've been here in NZwith my wife and kids for going 2 years now and we haven't visited since. The rest of our family are back 'home'. We miss them like crazy and I somehow feel that we've have robbed the kids and their grandparents from keeping them away from each other for the time that we are here.
> ...


I know one that "went back" it lasted two years before the penny dropped... Nothing worked, it was dirty, noisy and tense.

Get Skype and speak to them.....(get them to visit) You have your own family now, enjoy them in a free country.


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## mman (Nov 15, 2009)

Halo said:


> And if you don't have the $$?


Overseas uni is just as expensive if not more


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

mman said:


> Overseas uni is just as expensive if not more


You're missing the BUT here....

1. You earn real currency
2. Your kids get decent student loans
3. They will get a job after to pay it back

(Don't forget that schooling is FREE up to that point in which time you can save)


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Yea, right.
I did a quick search on the school my daughter was booked to go to in SA, 
ZAR40k a year rising to 60k ( for primary school) plus books and equipment
Did not even bother checking what a good private high school will be ,but if you think you will get a good edu for your child in a Govt School and the modelC schools are not free either, I think you are mistaken.
We chose where we live in Ireland because we chose a school that was similar to what she was going to in SA,
Cost?
€200 a year donation towards special equipment.
varsity?
mentioned that I have just gon through this with two neices, 5 year varsity?
around the million R mark or about 100k €
Ireland?
with the localised grants and having attended school for at least 4 years in Ireland, parents Irish and taxpayers?
5 year course, same degree?
less than 20k€
and if the parents cant pay it and the marks are good, free.

so another little plus mark for leaving when your kids are still young and you still pay tax.

agreed tho, send your kids over without that and overseas uni's are very expensive.

SA Uni's standards were always recognised as being good, I gather that is no longer the case.


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## mman (Nov 15, 2009)

Daxk said:


> Yea, right.
> two neices, 5 year varsity?
> around the million R mark


Which varsity?


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Wits and Tukkies.
B.Compt with a follow on for one, Bsc for the other which hs a Med direction and conversion to full med.


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## JairajVi (Jun 14, 2010)

No doubt that the cost of living everywhere has escalated...SA used to have one the best education systems in the world...but I think that has dropped, but even with that...it is still recognised throughout.

If you do a comparison with the earnings here and with SA, it's about the same if u do the conversions...so we didn't come here for more money...just a better life. No doubt, the schools inSA are gett'n incredibly expensive due to the quality of schools and education now...but it is affordable for the average earners, I would presume. Government schools are also ok, just depending on the areas and the crowd or race they receive. In saying that, some govenment schools are still getting on with business as usual. Yes u cannot compare it to the days, a couple of years back...but they are still running. I pay almost 20K NZD a year for my two in Kindie...so that's quite expensive for the average earner here. When they start school, then it's different...! But then don't think that schools are free here and we will save a fortune...we will still have to cator for their extra activities and after care. So it should amount to almost the same at the end of the day.

I just hope that someday SA turns around, cos I must admit it's one beautiful country to live in...! Some of my friends strongly believe that the next president 'could' be Helen Zille (Otta Helene Maree née Zille)...and if that's true...I'm sure we will see some definite change in SA and the economy.

Later.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

JairajVi said:


> No doubt that the cost of living everywhere has escalated...SA used to have one the best education systems in the world...but I think that has dropped, but even with that...it is still recognised throughout.
> 
> If you do a comparison with the earnings here and with SA, it's about the same if u do the conversions...so we didn't come here for more money...just a better life. No doubt, the schools inSA are gett'n incredibly expensive due to the quality of schools and education now...but it is affordable for the average earners, I would presume. Government schools are also ok, just depending on the areas and the crowd or race they receive. In saying that, some govenment schools are still getting on with business as usual. Yes u cannot compare it to the days, a couple of years back...but they are still running. I pay almost 20K NZD a year for my two in Kindie...so that's quite expensive for the average earner here. When they start school, then it's different...! But then don't think that schools are free here and we will save a fortune...we will still have to cator for their extra activities and after care. So it should amount to almost the same at the end of the day.
> 
> ...


Keep dreaming... 

& 20K for Kindie????? (do you mean kindergarten?) Are they attending with the Pope's kids?

School in Australia is basically free < $1000/year - Is NZ that much different?


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## mman (Nov 15, 2009)

JairajVi said:


> Some of my friends strongly believe that the next president 'could' be Helen Zille (Otta Helene Maree née Zille)


I wish


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## TedS (Jun 17, 2010)

Totally understand how you are feeling, I live in Ireland, have 2 kids and have been through the same feelings especially with regard to family and the kids missing out on grandparents and still do from time to time.

Have not moved back myself but my brother in law did after living in London for 7 years he decided to go back and build a life for himself in SA. Sold up everything in the UK and moved back bought a house in a complex in Boksburg and invested into a business. Had been living in the house for about 3 months and had a poker evening with some mates, shortly after some of the group had left 3 guys came through the front door held them at gunpoint, tied them up, terrorised them for a few hours and then finally packed whatever would fit into my brother in laws car and left. Thankfully no one was killed or seriously injured. 

A month later my brother in law was attending a business meeting in Kempton Park when a group of armed men stormed into the premises held everyone up and then took whatever possesions people had on them (cell phones, wallets ect). 

After going through all that he was an emotional wreck, neurotic and jittery, unable to sleep in his house and ended up moving in with his parents, and is now back in London re establishing everything that he gave up to return to SA for. But he and wife and son are able to sleep at night again.

So my advice to you is even though its tough you are better off hanging in where you are, after going through the expense and everything else you need to give it more time. I have some good mates in NZ from SA who have been there a while now and also found it tough going initially, would be happy to put you in touch with them.

My son rides his bike to school and rides around our estate everyday after school, leaves the bike outside the front door and he and all the other kids in the estate are building a fort in the field at the bottom of the estate and having great adventures in the "jungle" down there. Kids unfortunately just wont have that kind of freedom in SA.

As for the schools thing the level of individual attention that my son gets here is second to none and same as what Daxk said its all for a small annual donation. I doubt he would get the level of attention he gets even in an expensive private school in SA. Pre school is also expensive here but the govt has a scheme that pays for the final year of pre school before they start primary school and my daughter will be in that program from Sept this year, happy days.

Hang in there it is worth it.


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## JairajVi (Jun 14, 2010)

Halo said:


> Keep dreaming...
> 
> & 20K for Kindie????? (do you mean kindergarten?) Are they attending with the Pope's kids?
> 
> School in Australia is basically free < $1000/year - Is NZ that much different?


I'm dead serious...yes that's for Kindergarten. Childcare is very expenisive here, and obviously you get your cheap 'Kindies' and you do get your good quality ones, so u wanna give your kids the best right....and that's what we are trying to do. 

School is relatively cheap here as well, but like I said in my previous post, extra activies and aftercare will still be there, no matter what.

The NZ government also offers 20 free hours of education, or should I say that they subsidise the 20 hours and we pay for 20...but that only applies to kids when they turn 3. It's normal rates for kids that are under 3.

I always hear that Aussie is better anyways...in terms of jobs and pay, together with schooling.


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## JairajVi (Jun 14, 2010)

Thanx TedS...

I guess we will have to get through this period and see what happens in time to come. Lotsa people that we spoke to here, or almost everyone went through that or are still going through the emotional patch. 

I have a friend here from SA...he's living here for going 5 years now and he still hasn't settled down. So I guess it's all up to the individual on how long it takes them to cope with this.

You are so right when saying that the kids are so free to do as they please...even in NZ the facilities are good, the areas and streets are good...they are happy...no doubt...but our lives still lack the that someth'n from family...u know what I'm talking about.

We have many friends here...and trust me it's not difficult meeting another South African here...but it's just not the same as family though. Thanx for the thought.

I guess we just have to give it some time...and see what happens. We have some family visiting in December...hope that doesn't make our feelings more vulnerable.

So how is it in Ireland...weather, people, homes...???


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

One of the best things to do is NOT hang around other South Africans..... Make local friends and get to understand the local "way it is". No "braais" talking about the old days and what will happen to SA and maybe this or maybe that......

Integration is the best solution to a happy stay in your new country.... And seeing you're in NZ just crack open your 70's music selection and you'll be the in like Flynn.


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## Therooster (Jul 1, 2010)

What a sad bunch of wallies. The person is asking about the situation in south Africa, something none of you seem to have the first clue about and you're up onm your soap boxes lecturing them as if they're somehow not aware of the problems here ! Hello !!! They emigrated !!

Here's how the situation is. Same as normal. You stand a far better chance of dying of a tumor or a car crash than getting murdered etc etc. Your kids ? I really can't think of any stories of kids murdered due to crime off hand or anything to suggest your kids are in danger here. Not white kids anyway. The economy is doing great and got out of the recession better than 99% of the rest of the world and already growing around 4% again. I don't know..what do you want to hear ? 

South Africa, just like two hears ago is a fantastic country where the gross majority of middle classed people will live in without ever knowing anyone who has been murdered etc. Nothings changed. It never was half as bad as these folks who did the chicken run are making out, just the perception existed. But don't listen to me , make up your own mind. Certainly don't let these miserable scaremongers influence your decision. You're perfectly capable of thinking rationally and making your own decisions without these fools appealing to your emotions with alarmist hyperbole.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Therooster said:


> What a sad bunch of wallies. The person is asking about the situation in south Africa, something none of you seem to have the first clue about and you're up onm your soap boxes lecturing them as if they're somehow not aware of the problems here ! Hello !!! They emigrated !!
> 
> Here's how the situation is. Same as normal. You stand a far better chance of dying of a tumor or a car crash than getting murdered etc etc. Your kids ? I really can't think of any stories of kids murdered due to crime off hand or anything to suggest your kids are in danger here. Not white kids anyway. The economy is doing great and got out of the recession better than 99% of the rest of the world and already growing around 4% again. I don't know..what do you want to hear ?
> 
> South Africa, just like two hears ago is a fantastic country where the gross majority of middle classed people will live in without ever knowing anyone who has been murdered etc. Nothings changed. It never was half as bad as these folks who did the chicken run are making out, just the perception existed. But don't listen to me , make up your own mind. Certainly don't let these miserable scaremongers influence your decision. You're perfectly capable of thinking rationally and making your own decisions without these fools appealing to your emotions with alarmist hyperbole.


Yawn!!


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Therooster said:


> Here's how the situation is. Same as normal. You stand a far better chance of dying of a tumor or a car crash than getting murdered etc etc.


This is an absurd argument.



Therooster said:


> South Africa, just like two hears ago is a fantastic country where the gross majority of middle classed people will live in without ever knowing anyone who has been murdered etc. Nothings changed. It never was half as bad as these folks who did the chicken run are making out, just the perception existed. But don't listen to me , make up your own mind. Certainly don't let these miserable scaremongers influence your decision. You're perfectly capable of thinking rationally and making your own decisions without these fools appealing to your emotions with alarmist hyperbole.


This is your opinion and like most of your posts they are solely based on that - I prefer cold hard facts and statistics. 
PS Name call is something your pretty good at it seems.


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## zambezi.king (Oct 8, 2009)

Come on Halo... don't let the facts spoil a good arguement 

I've said it before... who is the traitor, coward, chicken, fool.... is it the one who complains when standards slide or when curruption raises it's head or when crime spirals out of control, or when infrastructure starts to crumble... or is it the one who ignores all of the facts and never has anything negative to say?


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

The Internet is full of those who shout allot and say very little.


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## Therooster (Jul 1, 2010)

Halo said:


> This is your opinion and like most of your posts they are solely based on that - I prefer cold hard facts and statistics.
> PS Name call is something your pretty good at it seems.



Yeah , yeah. you like facts as long as they don't bother your confirmation bias.

Here's a study showing white murder rates coming down since 1991 and them being less than half than the other population groups. Pity it only goes up to 2003 because we've have an even bigger drop in murder rates since then (from 43-37 per 100 000 for the entire population. Take white on white murder out the picture and the "Living in Africa" factor would become even less significant.)

A Murderous Legacy, Coloured homicide trends in South Africa

So there's one reason to come back. If you could live here in 1991 you can live here today and be safer.


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## zambezi.king (Oct 8, 2009)

The white murder rate has decreased because there are less white people... DUH!!


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## Therooster (Jul 1, 2010)

zambezi.king said:


> The white murder rate has decreased because there are less white people... DUH!!


Face palm. :ranger:

Dude, it's a rate...as in per 100 000 people. Not total amount of murders (although obviously that's decreased too). 

And there are probably more white people here than in 1991 now anyway.


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## zambezi.king (Oct 8, 2009)

More white people now than in 1991... Dude... ease up on the medication.


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## zambezi.king (Oct 8, 2009)

Also, thanks for pointing out how a rate works and how it is to be interpreted. Would you please now look at the murder rate for SA against other countries. The same for rape, the same for other violent crimes.

When done with that please look at the historic data and tells us all again how things are soooo great.


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## Therooster (Jul 1, 2010)

zambezi.king said:


> More white people now than in 1991... Dude... ease up on the medication.


You're trying to deflect the topic because your premise fails at the first hurdle. But I'll bite for the sake of argument.

I am not saying it is larger, but let's take a look at it for fun considering this in a forum about expats.

Some people say "800 000" white South African have left the country. I personally thinks that's a thumb suck. I don't want to give my own thumb suck but it's a known fact that many of those who leave have returned home finding the grass no greener on the other side. But let's work on 800 000 as a worse case scenario. 

Now to make up that 800 000 South Africa we need to see the white population growth as well as whites emigrating to South Africa. Right, I'll skittle off and gather some data and let's see what we find.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Therooster said:


> Y I personally thinks that's a thumb suck. I don't want to give my own thumb suck but it's a known fact that many of those who leave have returned home finding the grass no greener on the other side. But let's work on 800 000 as a worse case scenario.
> 
> Now to make up that 800 000 South Africa we need to see the white population growth as well as whites emigrating to South Africa. Right, I'll skittle off and gather some data and let's see what we find.


Just provide the stats please, thanks.


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## Therooster (Jul 1, 2010)

zambezi.king said:


> Also, thanks for pointing out how a rate works and how it is to be interpreted. Would you please now look at the murder rate for SA against other countries. The same for rape, the same for other violent crimes.
> 
> When done with that please look at the historic data and tells us all again how things are soooo great.



Are you talking to me ? I'm confused because it seems you are yet at the same time it seems you're talking to someone who says things are "so great." I don't recall ever saying that.

What I can say is the white murder rate here is less than Russia, most of South America, South East Asia etc. It's still far too high. 

I never came on here saying "Hey South Africa is this utopia guys !"

I came on here saying "Hey, calm down, south Africa isn't as bad as you guys are making out."

Big , big difference. I'm happy to say South Africa has problems if you're happy to admit that it's not as bad as many people here make out.

And by historic data , our murder rate has gone down 44% per capita since 1994. Fact. 

http://www.mg.co.za/article/2009-12-03-murder-down-30-since-1994-research-shows


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## zambezi.king (Oct 8, 2009)

Never ever said it was hell on earth or anything like that! I am not anti SA but I would like those who ask "how is SA" to be informed on the facts:

1. Crime IS a problem... fact.
2. Education IS a problem... fact.

These are things that affect not only one's current lifestyle but also that of their kid's futures.
I don't bash SA but I don't stick my head in the sand a hope to hell it'll be alright. 

Does the very high violent crime rate mean that you will be shot as you leave the airport... no, but it does mean that you are more likely to be and that is the point to be made. Take a country like the UK and compare with SA ROUGHLY the same amount of people... how many murders, rapes, violent home invasions in each country? How many criminals are caught and convicted for those crimes?

As stated before... 3 relatives who are teachers... the pass rate here is artifically propped up by passing failing students. This MIGHT happen to a certain extent in other countries but it DOES happen here and those that want FACTS need to know this.

Is SA a war zone... no but it is not the utopian society either.

Gotta leave the creche for a few hours but await the replies.


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## Therooster (Jul 1, 2010)

zambezi.king said:


> Never ever said it was hell on earth or anything like that! I am not anti SA but I would like those who ask "how is SA" to be informed on the facts:
> 
> 1. Crime IS a problem... fact.
> 2. Education IS a problem... fact.
> ...



Yes, of course you have a higher chance of being murdered in South Africa than the U.K. But that chance is still very , very low. Don't scare people and tell them there is a high chance of them getting murdered. I think sometimes ex South Africa give the impression that you would be lucky not to be murdered and that people being murdered is an everyday part of out lives here. It isn't. 

What people should know about South Africa is that the gross majority of murders happen amongst the most dysfunctional sub groups of the country. The real poor, uneducated people think nothing of pulling a knife on each other when they're drunk and having a dispute. The thing is South Africa is segregated and you're never likely to encounter this. You can live here your whole life and never need to ever go to such a part of the country/city. 

The crime isn't random and all around you. It's very predictable and therefore easy to avoid. You don't need any special knowledge or skills to avoid being a statistic . just common sense. 

Do most people live behind big fences etc ? Yes, we do and we have long before we ever spoke about "crime". South Africa has a history where we've been fed propaganda about "die swart gevaar" (the black danger) for years and told how the "communists" want to come rape our wives and kill our kids. 

Amazingly the high murder rate has always existed but was just never reported when whites were in power. Suddenly post apartheid many whites saw it as a convenient tool to use to discredit the ruling black party and made as if it suddenly came into existence when in reality all that happened is that it was recorded and released for the first time. And since then the trend has been that murder has come down 44% since 1994 per capita but the perception it's gotten worse has increased, through scaremongers as you might find on this site. 

So yes, South Africa has a high level of violent crime. But it really doesn't affect your life nearly as much as some people are making out. Most middle classed South Africans are too busy enjoying their lives to ever really even think about crime. I think even these guys here will admit that it's pretty invisible if you're a middle classed person. You're not ever likely to see it happening or hear about it first hand, but you read about it. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. But again the chances of you being murdered here are far lower than you dying in a car crash on the way to work or of some terrible cancer. I assume you put those things from your mind and carry on driving and eating processed food, so why fixate about murder that's really extremely unlikely to happen ? And what's more it's decreasing at that.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Rooster,if you need stats, population census figures say exactly who is in the Country.
1996 census figures differ from census 2001 and 2006 in that including white population growth
there were 841,347 less white bums on seats in SA on the relevant census nights 2006.

statsa.gov.za

The funny part of all is that Home affairs knows exactly how many SA's are out of the Country and how many have returned.
every time you go through a border post, with your SA Passport which you have to use by law, your details (passport and ID no)are entered into the main frame Computer which is at Home Affairs.

One single report at any time gives EXACTLY how many have left and returned.
And that is information that they absolutely refuse to release.
if the brain drain was over, it would be shouted from the rooftops.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Therooster said:


> Yes, of course you have a higher chance of being murdered in South Africa than the U.K. But that chance is still very , very low. Don't scare people and tell them there is a high chance of them getting murdered. I think sometimes ex South Africa give the impression that you would be lucky not to be murdered and that people being murdered is an everyday part of out lives here. It isn't.
> 
> What people should know about South Africa is that the gross majority of murders happen amongst the most dysfunctional sub groups of the country. The real poor, uneducated people think nothing of pulling a knife on each other when they're drunk and having a dispute. The thing is South Africa is segregated and you're never likely to encounter this. You can live here your whole life and never need to ever go to such a part of the country/city.
> 
> ...


Nope, the people who are asking about going to SA are not going to be living in poorer areas.
And Armed Home Invasions are what people fear most, especialy women.
Google Dr Rudolph Zinn, this appeared from a study he did in the Pretoria News 2008, it is still relevant.
Your stats on the decrease dont take into account the ANC and IFP war in 1992, 1993 and 1994.
If you look at the SA Medical Councils Mortality report you will see exactly how many died and how.
Here is Zinns Article: 

"Dr. Rudolph Zinn of the School of Criminal Justice at UNISA did intensive research on residential robberies and attacks, and interviewed many arrested and convicted robbers.

Some of his findings are alarming, some are surprising - but they are all well worth taking note of. Then make your own conclusion and beef up your security where necessary.

During the past year, house robberies increased by 13,5%.
Of the almost 15 000 residential robberies committed in 2008, half (50%) took place in Gauteng .

The average age of a house robber is between 19 and 26 years.
An average of 30% of all house robbers have either committed murder, or won't hesitate to commit murder.

Only 17% of house robbers are foreigners.

Of all arrested robbers, 90% had no matric or were unemployed. The 10% who had been employed, gave up their jobs when confirming how much they could "earn" from a robbery.

Most victims or targets are affluent persons who openly display their wealth, e.g. expensive cars, jewellery, up market homes.

Much intelligence is gathered about the target home and its residents by means of inside information supplied by domestic workers.

Eight out of ten residential robberies are committed with the help of information from domestic workers, gardeners and former employees.

The robbers will monitor the home and movements for as long as is needed to formulate a plan of attack - sometimes up to two weeks.

All gangs research and monitor the response times of armed response companies.

Most attacks occur between 19:00 and midnight as people are relaxed, busy cooking or watching TV, and the security systems and beams are not activated. But robberies continue until 04:00 in the morning.

The biggest deterrent confirmed by robbers themselves, are small dogs that are kept inside the home.

Alarm systems and armed reaction services are not considered a deterrent. Electric fences, closed-circuit TV (CCTV) and detection beams do, however, deter robbers.

An average of R5 000 is stolen during each robbery.
Surprisingly, victims of house robberies are only seriously injured in 2% of all incidents.

35% of robbers robbed for basic needs (hunger, poverty), while 65% enjoyed the money and spent it on clothes, cars, etc.

The average robber commits 103 robberies over seven years before being caught.

A staggering 97% of all robbers are armed, and on average there are four members in an armed robbery gang.

Most attackers' homes or bases are a 10 to 30 minute drive from the target address.

Women are more often tortured or hurt during house robberies.
The conviction rate for house robberies in South Africa is only 7,67%. In the USA it is 53%.


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## Therooster (Jul 1, 2010)

Daxk said:


> Nope, the people who are asking about going to SA are not going to be living in poorer areas.
> And Armed Home Invasions are what people fear most, especialy women.
> Google Dr Rudolph Zinn, this appeared from a study he did in the Pretoria News 2008, it is still relevant.
> Your stats on the decrease dont take into account the ANC and IFP war in 1992, 1993 and 1994.
> ...


So they got data on 100& of robbers but only catch 7% 

Smells a lot like one big thumb suck. And even your study says even when home only 2% are injured. How many took place when people were at home ? 10 % ? That would be a lot. But let's work on that.


It would mean 30 people a year are injured in these housebreakings.


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## Therooster (Jul 1, 2010)

Therooster said:


> So they got data on 100& of robbers but only catch 7%
> 
> Smells a lot like one big thumb suck. And even your study says even when home only 2% are injured. How many took place when people were at home ? 10 % ? That would be a lot. But let's work on that.
> 
> ...


Just to explain my maths. 10% of 15000 = 1500. 2% of 1500 = 30 serious injuries from housebreaking a year. 

That sounds way too low for me. Maybe 20%-30% are done while people are at home, but that doesn't make much sense either as why risk an armed robbery charge when you can just be done for housebreaking ?


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## mman (Nov 15, 2009)

Therooster said:


> So they got data on 100& of robbers but only catch 7%
> 
> Smells a lot like one big thumb suck. And even your study says even when home only 2% are injured. How many took place when people were at home ? 10 % ? That would be a lot. But let's work on that.
> 
> ...


Your maths is wrong 2% of 15000 is 300 , u cant take 10% of that and say 30 . 150 of those happen in Gauteng. The thing is though that the injury is often mental in a house breaking more than physical. And also that 2% is serious injury, does rape and murder fall under this?


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## zambezi.king (Oct 8, 2009)

Rooster you say it happens mostly in lower income areas. 

In the last 15 odd years it has touched my close friends and relatives on numerous occassions (violent attacks, murder and rape on about 10 occassions that I can remember). Prior to that it was so rare that I can only remember 1 occassion that the above took place. So I do think it is worse and the fact that the criminals are never caught or rehabilitated we are left with the perception that the danger is real, relevant and imminent.


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## vegasboy (Apr 28, 2010)

Therooster said:


> Yes, of course you have a higher chance of being murdered in South Africa than the U.K. But that chance is still very , very low. Don't scare people and tell them there is a high chance of them getting murdered. I think sometimes ex South Africa give the impression that you would be lucky not to be murdered and that people being murdered is an everyday part of out lives here. It isn't.
> 
> What people should know about South Africa is that the gross majority of murders happen amongst the most dysfunctional sub groups of the country. The real poor, uneducated people think nothing of pulling a knife on each other when they're drunk and having a dispute. The thing is South Africa is segregated and you're never likely to encounter this. You can live here your whole life and never need to ever go to such a part of the country/city.
> 
> ...


 Therooster, I have deliberately tried to refrain from any debate here where you are involved to avoid conflict. Truth extended becomes error, and by the sometimes almost wild and unreliable statements you post as fact without backing it up with references you are portraying a bully who have decided to steam role anyone opposing your view by attacking all who dare to challenge your views. Let me give you just three such examples from this one post alone: You state: 

1. "The crime isn't random and all around you. It's very predictable and therefore easy to avoid. You don't need any special knowledge or skills to avoid being a statistic. Just common sense. " BS! If you have any knowledge of town planning and spatial development, you will know that the preferred model is to integrate LSM1-10 in ALL forms, be that mixed living of low and high cost, health services etc.

2. "So yes, South Africa has a high level of violent crime. But it really doesn't affect your life nearly as much as some people are making out. Most middle classed South Africans are too busy enjoying their lives to ever really even think about crime." Based on what facts do you make this statement? I have been in the mental health field (among other) for the last 18 years. Let me tell you Rooster, the subconscious psychological impact crime has on many in S.A is horrific. You CANNOT walk free in an average neighbourhood as you suggested elsewhere. 

3. "I assume you put those things from your mind and carry on driving and eating processed food, so why fixate about murder that's really extremely unlikely to happen ?" What utter nonsense. No further comment on this. Anyone with brains can read between the lines.

While I do think you have a positive contribution to make, I suggest you tone it down and give a balanced view without bullying others on this forum. I would like to debate and share views with you, but if you do it in the derogatory manner you have been doing it up to now, I will choose to rather not demean myself by indulging...


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## Therooster (Jul 1, 2010)

vegasboy said:


> Therooster, I have deliberately tried to refrain from any debate here where you are involved to avoid conflict. Truth extended becomes error, and by the sometimes almost wild and unreliable statements you post as fact without backing it up with references you are portraying a bully who have decided to steam role anyone opposing your view by attacking all who dare to challenge your views. Let me give you just three such examples from this one post alone: You state:
> 
> 1. "The crime isn't random and all around you. It's very predictable and therefore easy to avoid. You don't need any special knowledge or skills to avoid being a statistic. Just common sense. " BS! If you have any knowledge of town planning and spatial development, you will know that the preferred model is to integrate LSM1-10 in ALL forms, be that mixed living of low and high cost, health services etc.
> 
> ...


My view is all about balance. South Africa is neither a Utopia nor a terrible place to live.


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## mman (Nov 15, 2009)

vegasboy said:


> While I do think you have a positive contribution to make, I suggest you tone it down and give a balanced view without bullying others on this forum. I would like to debate and share views with you, but if you do it in the derogatory manner you have been doing it up to now, I will choose to rather not demean myself by indulging...


I dont think thats fair to say, rooster is no more of a bully than some others on this forum, but you dont talk to them in the same manner?? Whats with that? Is that because they share similar views to you?


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## vegasboy (Apr 28, 2010)

mman said:


> I dont think thats fair to say, rooster is no more of a bully than some others on this forum, but you dont talk to them in the same manner?? Whats with that? Is that because they share similar views to you?


 I must admit that most of us (regulars) on this forum are guilty of overstepping the boundaries from time to time. We all know too well that this is an extremely sensitive issue, especially if you have been a victim of crime etc. 

The reason I joined this forum was so I can test and balance my personal view and understanding, which is not so positive, against those with different views than mine (Like Therooster, who makes some very valid points too), and receive confirmation on others. This way I can make informed decisions. 

Lets keep the debates rolling, but not neglecting to do it with dignity and integrity...


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## Therooster (Jul 1, 2010)

vegasboy said:


> I must admit that most of us (regulars) on this forum are guilty of overstepping the boundaries from time to time. We all know too well that this is an extremely sensitive issue, especially if you have been a victim of crime etc.
> 
> The reason I joined this forum was so I can test and balance my personal view and understanding, which is not so positive, against those with different views than mine (Like Therooster, who makes some very valid points too), and receive confirmation on others. This way I can make informed decisions.
> 
> Lets keep the debates rolling, but not neglecting to do it with dignity and integrity...


Well respect for being honest about your agenda. I assume you have been a victim of some terrible crime and therefore totally understand(while I don't validate) your alarmism and fear relating to the country. I think through looking at the facts and statistics you will get a clearer more rational stance on the country. While I think it's terrible you've been a victim of crime, I simply can't support any view that says this is something that is likely to happen to someone in the country. 

My agenda is as simple as yours. I really do love this country, and not in some patriot type of way. I have built a life here amongst the chaos and am deeply invested in seeing my investment in my community etc in coming to bloom. I have never in my life felt I'm in any danger of a violent attack or have gotten this impression from any of my friends. Nobody I know is unahppy or feels unsafe here and wants to leave. Nobody has had anything truly traumatic crime related happen to them. I deal with tourists on almost a daily basis. The gross majority of them want to live here forever, not leave. So when I come across people trying to confirm their bias, such as you admit to, I simply ask they try be objective and give both sides. The experience of the tiny minority can never be the whole picture, try respect that as I will try respect your prespective too.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Therooster said:


> Well respect for being honest about your agenda. I assume you have been a victim of some terrible crime and therefore totally understand(while I don't validate) your alarmism and fear relating to the country. I think through looking at the facts and statistics you will get a clearer more rational stance on the country. While I think it's terrible you've been a victim of crime, I simply can't support any view that says this is something that is likely to happen to someone in the country.
> 
> My agenda is as simple as yours. I really do love this country, and not in some patriot type of way. I have built a life here amongst the chaos and am deeply invested in seeing my investment in my community etc in coming to bloom. I have never in my life felt I'm in any danger of a violent attack or have gotten this impression from any of my friends. Nobody I know is unahppy or feels unsafe here and wants to leave. Nobody has had anything truly traumatic crime related happen to them. I deal with tourists on almost a daily basis. The gross majority of them want to live here forever, not leave. So when I come across people trying to confirm their bias, such as you admit to, I simply ask they try be objective and give both sides. The experience of the tiny minority can never be the whole picture, try respect that as I will try respect your prespective too.


where are you living?
by the sounds of it away from Gauteng which is where the majority of those going to SA on contract will end up.


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## Therooster (Jul 1, 2010)

Daxk said:


> where are you living?
> by the sounds of it away from Gauteng which is where the majority of those going to SA on contract will end up.


Yeah I don't live in Gauteng.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Therooster said:


> Yeah I don't live in Gauteng.


I did. 
I speak to my staff and friends there on an almost daily basis.
and will be back there again in 3 weeks time.


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