# Construction on Rustic Land



## HelenN

Has anyone had experience of buying a property on rustic land? I understand that is almost impossible to live on rustic land but the place we are looking at has a building already on it that had been previously lived in (but not now). I've got a lawyer looking into it but I was wondering if anyone knew anything about how likely it would be that we could live there and renovate it.

Thanks.


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## John and Cecil

I am interested in your question too. I do not know how it works in Portugal but I know in the USA you would need to obtain a "certificate of occupancy" which is also referred to as a CO before you can inhabit a dwelling. In the USA a CO is required whenever you buy, drastically renovate, or change the intended use of a property (like going from an office to a home). A CO is basically an inspection or statement that certifies that the property is safe and suitable for occupancy.

Also in the USA when trying to get a CO you sometimes have to bring an old property up to code (current building codes and zoning ordinances). You might need to make changes to the plumbing, electrical, heating systems, etc if the old systems are deemed unsafe or unhealthy. 

However I too have no idea what the requirements are in Portugal, especially for the old homes that have not been inhabited for a long time, so hopefully someone else can be of help. I would think the process would be somewhat similar to that of the one in the US but I do not know. If you were in the US I would have directed you to ask your questions to the town building dept where the property was located.


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## smudges

This question has been asked loads of times here and if you use the search function it will bring something up.


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## Strontium

Hi, Several years ago we looked a a lot of plots and put an offers on two adjacent Rustic plots near Tomar, on a gentle slope with a brook at the end and fruit trees in the lower half. One plot had the standing remains of a stone/brick building both no habitation status. We had a s**t of a lawyer. The registered owner of the plots was the agent selling them though we only met his/her assistant who didn't know this. etc etc. You cannot officially build habitation on Rustic land, you can build a garden Shed but not get a habitation status for the building. You can get Rustic electricity which is on a pole on the land but no domestic electricity nor domestic water. Often things like a caravan etc on Rustic land is ignored but as most things in Portugal different places enforce how they apply the rules differently. Apart from having to pay the lawyer etc the way we found out it was not 100% was the Pormissory note, which vendor and buyer both sign and a deposit is lodged making all the details legally binding - even with limited Portuguese I put in a clause that the seller would get building classed as habitation before the selling date which the vendor subsequently refused to sign. Quite often in the rural areas property will have two articles, house of X square meters Habitation and garden Y meters "Rustic".


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## HelenN

Hi Strontium, thanks for the reply. I will wait until I hear what my lawyer has found out and see if there is anything we can do. Otherwise I guess we'll have to look elsewhere. I know the Camara in question is trying to upgrade properties and stop the loss of population but the farm is quite a way out of the village so may not be included.

Smudges I have done lots of searches but unfortunately the search function on here is not very good but I did read a lot of threads but found that none were related to land with buildings on already.


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## John and Cecil

Strontium said:


> Hi, Several years ago we looked a a lot of plots and put an offers on two adjacent Rustic plots near Tomar, on a gentle slope with a brook at the end and fruit trees in the lower half. One plot had the standing remains of a stone/brick building both no habitation status. We had a s**t of a lawyer. The registered owner of the plots was the agent selling them though we only met his/her assistant who didn't know this. etc etc. You cannot officially build habitation on Rustic land, you can build a garden Shed but not get a habitation status for the building. You can get Rustic electricity which is on a pole on the land but no domestic electricity nor domestic water. Often things like a caravan etc on Rustic land is ignored but as most things in Portugal different places enforce how they apply the rules differently. Apart from having to pay the lawyer etc the way we found out it was not 100% was the Pormissory note, which vendor and buyer both sign and a deposit is lodged making all the details legally binding - even with limited Portuguese I put in a clause that the seller would get building classed as habitation before the selling date which the vendor subsequently refused to sign. Quite often in the rural areas property will have two articles, house of X square meters Habitation and garden Y meters "Rustic".


Thank you, as always your posts are very helpful. I especially like the clause you added about having the property classified for habitation before the closing.  I am not sure if the OP meant that the entire property was classified as rustic though, and I too am curious as well. Lets assume there is a property in rural Portugal that has not been inhabited for some time. It has a house on the property with the walls and roof intact, and in the past the home was classified as a habitation area. Would that property need some sort of inspection or certification (or perhaps brought up to the current building code) before the new owner could inhabit the property? If so is this inspection process performed by the municipal/regional/national government, or would it be up to local contractors to sign a certification or something?

I will also search to see if someone answered this question elsewhere in the forum and online when I get a chance too. I guess a book on building standards in Portugal might be helpful too, especially pertaining to home systems including electric, gas, water, and waste systems. I worked in the surveying and civil engineering field in the USA for many years so I am well versed with homes and building standards there but I am clueless to building standards in Europe.


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## smudges

The building must have a habitation licence - that was the term I couldn't remember!


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## John and Cecil

Thank you Smudges, terms make searches much easier 

I found this online:

_Under the Law Decree Nº. 68/2004, of 25 March, it became mandatory to provide the purchaser with all acts of the deed involving the acquisition of ownership of a residential building or fraction, a Technical Record of the building, without which it cannot be celebrated.

This legal obligation applies only on new property, and in the beginning of the regulation it is determined that the rules do not apply to the following cases:

– To buildings constructed before the entry into force of the General Regulation of Urban Construction, approved on August 7, of the year 1951

– The buildings built before 2004 and for which there is usage license issued or for which have been required the issue in the local council at the date of entry into force of the law statute, ie, March 30, 2004.

– Habitation Licence Portugal
All residential properties constructed after 1951 need a habitation license confirming that the local authority, Câmara Municipal, has inspected the property and that it complies with planning permission and building regulations.

– License of Use (Licença de Utilização)
Obtain a copy of the usage license from the Local Town Hall. In this document you can check if the property is approved for the proposes of the original building permission. For residential property it is necessary to have a habitation license. For non residential it is necessary to have a commercial or industrial license. This usage license document needs to be presented at the stage of signing the “promissory buying and selling” contract.

– A Dwelling Permit for a new house covers structural, electrical (except temporary power), mechanical, and plumbing work for the structure. It does not cover Public Works permits, water, sewer, or right-of-way.

_

However the question arises as to the procedure or necessity if the property was originally constructed before 1951. It does seem as though Portugal, like the USA, has given the authority of habitation licensing to the municipal government so that is probably the place to contact for questions.

Added: I found some more information, mostly from comments posted online in other forums (so maybe not accurate). It appears that if a house was built before 1951 then you need the certificate to prove that this is the case and then you are not required to have a habitation license. It also appears that you cannot add on to the structure, if you wish to then the entire house will require a habitation license and probably certain portions of the original home may need to be brought up to code.


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## John and Cecil

It appears that this is the case:

If the home was built after August 1951 then it requires a habitation certificate from the local municipality to occupy the property.

If the home was built before August 1951 (and did not have any additions built after that date) then the home only requires a certificate to be on record with the local municipality that states it is a home meant for dwelling and that it was built before the habitation certificate was required. In this case no habitual license is required.


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## Strontium

Basically as above about Habitation. 

If you get a useful Lawyer they often have direct access to the "land registry" listings of properties and for a small fee print you copies (some Estate Agents will do this as well). Properties are classed as Articles so - usually a house is one article and the listing will say how many square meters of habitation and year of construction - obviously there may have been additional parts built subsequently which may not be registered as habitation. . Garden land is a different Article and may be classed "Rustic" and the listing will say so many square meters of Rustic land, how many olive trees, orange trees etc On the ground there should be markers which correspond to the land BUT as the local tax is paid on the areas involved they may be under declared - estimated that the total declared land in Portugal is only 90% of the real area of Portugal. Often you will find the older rural houses have not had the paperwork updated recently but in the event of a sale the paperwork should be updated so the copy you are handed at the sale time should reflect what you are actually buying and possibly not what you think you are buying. Additionally it is possible to borrow money against property which is then part of the property so the debt goes with the property not the person so you may see a nice house which looks - on paper - cheaper than a similar house next door but comes with a debt. It is reasonably clear how things are done and you don't need a great understanding of Portuguese to navigate the pit falls. With a "land registry" listing and copy of a Promissory you'll be able to work it out yourself - I'll see if I can find examples of these paperwork to make it easier to understand.


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## HelenN

In our case we have been told (and need to get confirmed) that the building was built over 100 years ago. About a third was living accommodation (and looks like it from the room divisions inside) and the rest was animal accommodation. What we'd like is to renovate it all and live in all of it.


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## John and Cecil

Strontium said:


> Basically as above about Habitation.
> 
> If you get a useful Lawyer they often have direct access to the "land registry" listings of properties and for a small fee print you copies (some Estate Agents will do this as well). Properties are classed as Articles so - usually a house is one article and the listing will say how many square meters of habitation and year of construction - obviously there may have been additional parts built subsequently which may not be registered as habitation. . Garden land is a different Article and may be classed "Rustic" and the listing will say so many square meters of Rustic land, how many olive trees, orange trees etc On the ground there should be markers which correspond to the land BUT as the local tax is paid on the areas involved they may be under declared - estimated that the total declared land in Portugal is only 90% of the real area of Portugal. Often you will find the older rural houses have not had the paperwork updated recently but in the event of a sale the paperwork should be updated so the copy you are handed at the sale time should reflect what you are actually buying and possibly not what you think you are buying. Additionally it is possible to borrow money against property which is then part of the property so the debt goes with the property not the person so you may see a nice house which looks - on paper - cheaper than a similar house next door but comes with a debt. It is reasonably clear how things are done and you don't need a great understanding of Portuguese to navigate the pit falls. With a "land registry" listing and copy of a Promissory you'll be able to work it out yourself - I'll see if I can find examples of these paperwork to make it easier to understand.


Yikes, that is most definitely different from the way homes are sold in the US. In the US it is the responsibility of the seller to clear all the liens, encumbrances, loans, etc before the closing and transfer of title. The new purchaser then purchasers the property "free and clear" and they also purchase a "title insurance policy" which protects the purchaser for any claims, liens, etc that may arise for events which occurred before they acquired the property. The mortgage company also gets a title insurance policy to protect the bank for the amount of money that they loaned the purchaser to acquire the property as well. 

I wonder if Portugal also has similar laws about land ownership like "adverse possession" like we do in the US. In the US even if someone does not possess clear title to a piece of property they can gain title to that property if they occupy it for a long time provided that they are never given notice that they are occupying someone else's land by or for the actual owner. An example would be that we live next to each other. I build a fence between us but I actually build it 5' over onto your property. I then maintain that property and use it for gardening, I mow the grass, etc. If I occupy that land for 20 years and you do not inform me that it is your land during that time (or make attempts to maintain it yourself) then I have a legal claim to that land. 

I am not bringing this up because I am trying to steal land from anyone, but rather I am trying to determine the legal ramifications and rights associated with the appearance of a long established property lines between adjacent properties when the deed description(s) are vague or do not reflect what exists on the ground. 

A better example might be from the movie "Under a Tuscan Sun" where the woman buys a property and the legal description is "the amount of land that can be plowed by 2 oxen in 2 days". In this circumstance the legal description is vague and basically useless and the area of long term possession of the previous owner should signify to be the legal ownership.


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## John and Cecil

HelenN said:


> In our case we have been told (and need to get confirmed) that the building was built over 100 years ago. About a third was living accommodation (and looks like it from the room divisions inside) and the rest was animal accommodation. What we'd like is to renovate it all and live in all of it.


It sounds as though you would have to go to the Camera Municipal (or whatever the Portuguese term is  ) and see if they have a certificate on record stating the age and intended use of all the structures on the property. 

If this certificate describes what you have witnessed at the property then you will likely be permitted to inhabit the previously human inhabited areas. You can probably even renovate those areas, although I am not sure about any "structural" modifications like removing walls, etc. Any areas mentioned in the certificate as being built before 1951 and being used a human habitation should be legal to inhabit again.

However converting non habitation areas like animal areas would probably be a different story I would think that this would constitute an addition to the habitation area and therefore the entire property would legally need to receive a habitation certificate. This process would probably require you to bring the entire property up to current code. This could be a very expensive process if codes have changed for utilities and perhaps they have earthquake retrofitting laws now? 

Hopefully someone well versed in old Portugal homes can help but this is my best guess so far. I am guessing this situation came about because homes were deemed to not be safe and thus they changed the laws, but they did not want to screw anyone or make their properties worth substantially less so they grandfathered in the old homes. Considering this it might be better (cheaper) to find a home that has a current human habitat area that suits your needs and then renovate that without the need of a habitation certificate.


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## Strontium

HelenN said:


> In our case we have been told (and need to get confirmed) that the building was built over 100 years ago. About a third was living accommodation (and looks like it from the room divisions inside) and the rest was animal accommodation. What we'd like is to renovate it all and live in all of it.


It is common in older working Rural houses here to have animal accommodation on the ground floor and human accommodation directly above to make two stories and usually the the total house floor area is counted as habitation (including the ground floor). . additional lean to or separate sheds are not usually included as habitation. Get the article number(s) and copy of paperwork as this will list the total habitation area etc, you do not need any formal paperwork to get copies of article listings just someone with access. PM me if you have no way of doing this and I'll ask someone - it will cost maybe a few euro for a copy to be printed and posted to you. Do this for any property you may be interested in rather then guess at what is on offer. Sorry if this is confused a bit but was written is haste as am on way to station.

Also for older buildings pre1951? the front appearance should remain the same but the rest can be any sort of Fairy Palace your heart desires.


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## HelenN

Thanks, for the replies, it’s all very useful. It’s actually all on one floor. When you say the front looks the same do you mean all of the outside? I’m asking because it’d need more windows. I would like to think they’d make it easy to renovate these places rather have them go to ruin but who knows?


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## John and Cecil

I am glad that you posted this topic as I too am interested in hearing your answers. I bought and sold homes in the USA for a living, sort of a long term flipper that rebuilt them with old world craftsmanship  

I assume you mean that the home has solid walls (and not openings) in the currently non inhabited area where you would like to put windows. Perhaps it is permissible or easier to put in skylights in the ceiling instead? I am asking because I would like to see you get the correct answer. I have noticed as well that many of the older homes lack a decent amount of windows. 

I would also think they want these homes renovated and occupied. Some towns in Italy are giving homes away for free to people that will live in them and renovate them. It makes sense.

There is another problem that concerns me, and that is moisture and mold. I do not have much experience with old stone, etc houses. All my houses have been stud lumber built on either poured concrete slabs or with concrete block or poured concrete foundations. They all had drywall panels on the interior and either plywood and vinyl siding, brick, or stucco on the exterior. You may want to look into renovation methods to reduce internal moisture before you begin your renovation project, especially some sort of sealed floor if it does not have one already. I know I prefer my homes to be dry and insulated up the wazoo, plus lots of windows of course for light, warmth, and airflow


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## JohnBoy

There is a very good reason why older properties have small or few windows. The larger the window, the more heat escapes in winter and more heat enters in summer. The same applies to the very thick stone walls in older properties. I understand your comments John about liking more sunlight entering, but it's a balancing act between insulation and light.

For what it's worth and it is sort of relevant. I have a very good friend back in the UK that at one time was involved in the development and then manufacture and installation of a device that would bring sunlight from the roof into the home. The device was bought and is now being marketed by Velux as the Velux Sun Tunnel. It is amazing how much light travels down that small tube flooding the area below. It also works at night and will flood an area with moon light. These last few nights would have thrown a wonderful moonlight inside the property.


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## HelenN

We're thinking about normal Velux windows in some rooms anyway, a house we used to live in had no windows or doors on the right and left sides and used Velux in the bathrooms and that was sufficient. The Sun Tunnel looks interesting.


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## John and Cecil

JohnBoy said:


> There is a very good reason why older properties have small or few windows. The larger the window, the more heat escapes in winter and more heat enters in summer. The same applies to the very thick stone walls in older properties. I understand your comments John about liking more sunlight entering, but it's a balancing act between insulation and light.
> 
> For what it's worth and it is sort of relevant. I have a very good friend back in the UK that at one time was involved in the development and then manufacture and installation of a device that would bring sunlight from the roof into the home. The device was bought and is now being marketed by Velux as the Velux Sun Tunnel. It is amazing how much light travels down that small tube flooding the area below. It also works at night and will flood an area with moon light. These last few nights would have thrown a wonderful moonlight inside the property.


I always thought that was what those rolled up outside shutters were for? I would think they could be insulated and along with dual pane windows would they not be similar in insulating abilities to an old house wall?

I lived in Socal in Orange County a bit inland in a very large house with lots of windows (6 bedrooms, 2700sf and lots of large windows), I would say the climate was very similar to Southern Portugal. I had all double pane vinyl windows, and they were only the standard type (not argon gas filled or anything). 

In the winter during the day I would open all the shades (I had internal thick 2" faux wood blinds) in the house and the sun would shine through the windows and actually heat the house above the temperature outside. At night I would close the blinds to help insulate the window openings from the cold outside as it dropped into the 40's in the winter. I guess this would depend on the amount of sunlight in the winter though. In Southern Portugal or Madeira with lots of sun then closed windows can heat a home above outside temp, but if cloudy a lot then it probably would not help much.

In the summer it was the exact opposite. I would close the blinds tight during the day and that would keep much of the hot air and sun out. I would think that those roll down outside shutters would work even better, especially if perhaps they are painted or lined to reflect the heat away and if they were insulated. Even better would be to use the outside shutters and inside faux wood blinds together. My neighbor in California had roll down awnings which he rolled down to keep the sun from shining on his windows in the summer.

My co2 output for the last 2 years that I lived there was 1/10th that of the typical American and I lived in a huge 6 bedroom home with just my dog, although much of my savings was from driving only an e-bike. In the winter I hardly ever heated the home (my gas bill for heat, hot water, and cooking gas was $100 a year). My electric bill was $300 a year including air conditioning and that also included running a 120" movie projector 3-4 hours per day (1+kw per day just for the tv), and it got hot there in the summer (at least 30 days would go over 40C). I had a 2 story home and I would never run the central ac units (it had 2 large power hungry central air conditioner units), I had a small 5000btu ac unit that would cool about 600sf of living space on the lower floor on hot days. I used the stairwell leading upstairs as a heat stack and all the hot air was pushed upstairs while the downstairs was cooled by the underpowered and efficient window ac unit, then once the temps outside dropped at night I would open all the upstairs windows (sometimes assisted with box fans, blowing in on one side and blowing out on the other, and sealed into the window frames to create a vacuum seal). Withing minutes the upstairs would drop to nearly the same temp as outside. 

I believe a whole house fan would work even better, with a fan located in a roof peak or attic and which draws air in down low (like large open first floor windows). Perhaps a 2 story home is more efficient and can make better use of more windows though as well as "storing" hot air upstairs during the day in the summer. Warm air rises and I used that law of nature to my advantage in California. 

And yes, the roof idea would be even better for heating the house. Large skylights which have an insulated shudder system that can insulate the window when sunlight/heat is not desired would also be very efficient, I think


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## Strontium

This is a generalization but traditional rural building here, central Portugal (a poor country), is using "field stone" as this is local building material found in fields and forming the hills. Wood is used for roof structure, doors, floor boards and window frames. The stones are piled on top of each other to form walls with no foundations, no insulation, walls possibly 1m thick at the base and 50cm at the top, openings for windows and doors use a stone slab as a lintel - hence a reason why windows have to be small as there may be several tons of stone for the lintel to support, some times the opening has stone slab "columns" which support the lintel and prevent the stone walls falling into the opening. The walls are then infilled with mud which dries and produces a solid structure, periodic maintenance is required after the wet season. Slightly better walls are the same with lime render on the outside and inside which also make it all almost maintenance free. The walls "breathe". The roof is gable ended with a single span ridge beam, straightish branches are used to go from the ridge to the top of the walls and overhang, thinner straighish branches for batons are used and tiles put on top, gaps between tile mean the roof is vented. The ceiling below the roof is wood and seals the roof space from below thus preventing the sun heated roof space air entering the house. Wood + walls absorb moisture during humid periods and release moisture during less humid periods which is why lime morter is used and wood is not sealed with "oil" type paint. Woodworm are can live in wood with 11% moisture (need to check the exact %) so as the wood dries the woodworm + larvae die and other forms of rot do not form. If you start sealing the roof under the tiles or the wood of the floor boards etc you prevent them breathing and moisture content will find any tiny hole to get in and the spread but be unable to evaporate and damage occur. There are methods to renovate traditional houses but just adding sealed glazed units as windows and doors and boarding and insulating the roof can produce unintended consequences with things like rampant wood rot and black mold as the inner walls can no longer breathe and get rid of moisture in the dryer periods. If you aware of this then it is not difficult to live in these buildings but (as the locals do) you have to live WITH the building and not against it (does that make sense?


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## John and Cecil

Thank you for the description of how the walls were made, I don't think I will be cutting into any of them if I can help it  I understand you have to work with what you have. This is a very different building design concept than I am accustomed to. It is nice that they are not built with any toxic chemicals though.  

Out of your description the thing that sits with me the worst is the wood (sub)floor (on the lower floor, not between floors). Are there wood joists under the floor boards?If it was possible I think I would prefer to replace the wood subfloor with cement and then apply ceramic tile or a 6 mil plastic sheet vapor barrier with lock-and-fold laminate or engineered wood flooring. 

The walls are a different story. In my younger years I used to renovate old aluminum boats as a hobby and what I used under the floor was closed cell insulation (i.e pool noodles). There is a similar practice using this in the USA on very old 100-200 year old homes with damp stone and mortar basements. I think the practice involves spraying a couple inches of closed cell foam directly onto the stone walls and then they frame new walls using stud material that cannot rot (like metal). Then you can put more closed cell insulation into the stud voids and finally apply bathroom grade mold proof sheets of drywall to the studs. Perhaps someone has done something similar to the old homes in Portugal. 

The attic above the ceiling sounds somewhat similar to many homes in the US. My home in California had an attic above the second floor. My attic was vented and it had fans with thermostats that would expel the air from the attic when it reached a certain temperature which was very efficient. I also had a thick insulation blanket above the ceiling on the floor of the attic to insulate the home from the attic.

It is not just the moisture but the insulation that is of concern. Without good insulation the home will forever be using more resources to maintain a certain level of comfort.


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## Strontium

Nominally the ground floor is used for animal and/or storage and kitchen so often has earthen floor or stone flags. The exterior walls are the only load bearing part so the upstairs floor is made of beams go over the shortest span and floor boards on top - this lets the wood breathe above and below. Internal walls upstairs are often heavy wood (ie slices of a tree trunk) with plaster layer, rooms for sleeping tend to be small. So long as there is ventilation for the walls and floors the structure is ok, the roof space can be insulated by first removing the wood ceilings and roof tiles then boarding/sealing (breathable roofing felt) to replace the original tiles on top , breathable insulation is then added internally f then the T&G clad. This opens up the roof space and also insulated the roof, ceiling tend to be low as do door ways. For old houses as the regulation for original appearance ( not for the material) only cover the front façade then roof lights, block walls with big windows, folding glass doors, solar panels, heli pads, swimming pools, brewery's, can be installed via side and back walls and the rear part of the roof without any issue. Sympathetic building renovation where the front of rendered original stone (giving a feature wall internally) is insulated and has rendered block walls grafted on in place of the stone orgionals etc mean an old derelict house with habitation can be "rebuilt" for modern living. There are many other variations of this renovation technique with things like ring beams cast in situ to stabilize the stone walls and raise the roof height then block and beam roofs.


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## HelenN

My lawyer seems to think we shouldn't have a problem building on the land due to the size. I've been looking around and this seems to bear that out (although a little old):
https://www.casteloconstruction.info/2014/08/08/questions-building-permission-planning-processes/

Does anyone know anything about it?


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## baldilocks

Frequently you will find that the flooring of the upper floor is not fitted that tightly together thus allowing the heat from the animals below to warm the upper (human) habitation. Often the roof is made with canha (caña) or bamboo with lime mortar on top and then tiles on top of that. The rafters are often made from poplar trees this is why you will find stands of poplars and bamboo.


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## John and Cecil

HelenN said:


> My lawyer seems to think we shouldn't have a problem building on the land due to the size. I've been looking around and this seems to bear that out (although a little old):
> https://www.casteloconstruction.info/2014/08/08/questions-building-permission-planning-processes/
> 
> Does anyone know anything about it?


No one is answering yet so I will try to help until someone with more experience comes along. Perhaps any errors on my part can be corrected by someone with experience in Portugal.

The first issue is that this is a process that apparently has been given to the local municipalities to administer, and the author of your link seemed to mention that as well. Local municipalities can make their own regulations to fit the conditions they experience in their own areas. An example would be in Northern NJ there is a township that is unhappy about losing farmland to large housing developments and thus they require that you have at least 5 acres of land if you wish to build a house. If you have less it might still be possible but you would have to apply for a "variance" and then submit plans and/or studies to show how your situation would be ok but the decision is up to them. However in the next township over you would be allowed to build on a lot that is 1/20th of that size.

There are also many other factors for permitting a new building to be constructed, another big one in the US is wetlands. Many areas there have adopted regulations protecting wetlands which often just consists of certain plants growing in low lying areas. I have seen huge lots that were not permitted to build due to the proximity of wetlands as you are not allowed to build near them (all structures must be at least 50' away) or even impact them with water runoff from new impervious surfaces such as walkways or driveways.

Some places have very strict regulations, others are much more lax. I have seen a number of housing permits in rural areas denied over a perc test (when water is not absorbed fast enough by the ground, often due to slabs of bedrock). These homes were not allowed to be built because the area did not have municipal sewers and there was no safe way to install a septic field on land that will not perc (raw sewage will seep upwards to the ground surface - YUCK!). Some home permits have been denied because they obstructed a neighbor's view, etc. The list is never ending, there can be many regulations that are adopted or not adopted by individual municipalities in regards to building permits. 

I am sorry for the length of this response but I want you to understand the underlying elements that impact your question. I believe that your question can most likely only be answered by the actual municipality or by a professional that works there (a local surveyor or architect would likely be more qualified to answer rather than a lawyer, but it depends on the lawyer's field of practice too). 

In the US I would go to the town hall and see if they have an engineering, building, or planning dept. I would then look for my property on their town map and determine what zone it was in (commercial, residential, rural, urban, etc as each zone has different uses and regulations). I would then request a copy of the zoning ordinances and new building/construction requirements for my particular area. Sometimes they have a town surveyor or engineer that can answer your questions and if you show him/her a drawing or old survey of the land along with what you wish to do then they may be able to advise you of what would be required. When it comes down to it the municipality is the entity that will either approve or deny your project so they would be the ones I would approach first to ask my questions.

Again I have no experience in Portugal so hopefully someone with local experience can correct me if I have made any incorrect assumptions, however in the US one of my responsibilities was drafting plans for submission to municipal planning boards for obtaining building permit approvals.


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## HelenN

Thanks for the reply. I’m having a hard time getting a straight answer so I think contacting the Camara is the only way to go. Unfortunately we aren’t there in person which would have made it easier.


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## John and Cecil

HelenN said:


> Thanks for the reply. I’m having a hard time getting a straight answer so I think contacting the Camara is the only way to go. Unfortunately we aren’t there in person which would have made it easier.


This is why I have been looking for a residence that will not require an addition, it is very difficult to know what must be done to get permission to build and what problems might arise during the construction process. Utilizing an existing dwelling already permitted to be inhabited means you can work with what is already there. Home renovations, especially non-structural ones, are much easier to estimate and envision.

If you are looking to build in a rural area the problems you may come across would be different from those you might come across in an urban environment. I assume the area is rural from what I have read so far. My concerns would be sewer and water. Electric is usually not a big deal if there are power poles nearby or if the property already has electricity. Gas is easy, they just deliver tanks of propane there I believe.  However digging wells (if no municipal water lines exist which are often rare in rural areas) may have newer regulations, etc. So if there is a well on the property it may not be in a location that meets the new building code so it may not be allowed to be used for habitation purposes once you decide to make an addition. In the US wells must be located a certain distance away from septic sewer fields, etc. 

And that brings me to the sewer which is a big concern for me, however I do not know what types of rural sewers are allowed in Portugal. Municipal sewers are easy, you just need to connect your pipe to their pipe and that is it, however they are often not found in rural areas. The property must have some sort of sanitary sewer system but it might be 100 years old and the new code might require something else to be installed. I do not believe they had pvc pipe septic sewer leach fields 100 years ago. In the US this is usually what they require when building in rural areas, and then the well must be at least 100' or more away from the septic field. In the US installing a new sewer leach field requires design and computations from an engineer and to be sized according to how many bedrooms it is servicing, as well as soil testing, excavation, etc. It is like a gigantic underground sprinkler system but for human waste and costs can run quite high (these can easily cost 10-20k in the US for a larger home). 

There could also be environmental impact concerns in a rural setting, however if the area is mostly dry and there is little to no wildlife this may not be of any concern. But if some endangered or nearly endangered species is living on the land then their right to exist there may exceed your rights to build if it will impact them. This could just be a species of insect. Again not sure about Portugal.

However in a rural area lots are often much bigger and thus there are less concerns about setbacks (areas too close to roadways and property lines where you are not permitted to build structures), neighbors petitioning the town to not allow the permit, etc. 

This is why I suggest contacting the town and trying to get the documents from the town relating to building permits, zoning ordinances, etc. Perhaps a local land surveyor can give you a little free advice too, especially if you purchase the property and then require his/her services in the future. I know in the US one of the responsibilities of a professional land surveyor is to educate the public on such matters. If you had contacted our office we would have given you the names of the specific documents to obtain from the town and then after you read through them you could call us back and we would have tried to answer your questions over the phone. 

Hopefully someone else with experience in Portugal can help.


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## Strontium

Just a quick note. Habitation which either has previously been connected to electricity or water or has a supply nearby can be connected-reconnected by contacting the water/elec people, Make sure the distribution box and pipework to a stopcock are ok which is usually a 10 minute job from a registered builder. Most non-sewer rural places have a fosse (septic tank) which is related in volume to the water useage and (loads of stuff on here about fosse) also the local authority will empty the fosse if you need it done. The fosse should "process" the waste so the liquis outflow to into a drainage bed is non-toxic. So no nasty things like chlorine bleach of tyour fosse stops doing its job. Wells were often previously drilled or dug for water and the quality need testing if you want to drink it, quality can also change as you extract water, older habitation will often have a well in the garden and if you have a plot to grow stuff then a well can usually be drilled and Rustic electricity installed (to occasionally run a pump). In some areas there is mains gas but not an extensive network, bottles gas is usual for hot water, cooking and sometime central heating, several design/colour of bottles from different companies but generally an adapter will fit, gas bottles available in many many places and different size bottles. On line search for the cost per kq and the type of gas (propane or butane) as the burners can differ.


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## John and Cecil

Thank you, the info on being able to use the existing sewer system is very helpful.  I for one would like to use a multi stage reverse osmosis filtering system connected to a well or municipal water supply for my drinking water. There is a big problem in the US now with pharmaceutical tainted public water supplies that most filtration processes do not protect against, however reverse osmosis supposedly works very well in this regard.


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## Strontium

Reverse osmosis usually uses a large amount of electricity to pump the pressure needed - the most expensive rice I know of was grown in the middle of Saudi desert using water from reverse osmosis. Here the vast dammed lakes and sparse population tend to mean the mains water is clean and as people use wells/boreholes there is easy access to water quality analysis. 

Re: building permission - my opinion
Portugal rejoices/suffers* (delete as appropriate) in variable opinions in the place of decisions. If you ask two places/offices/people/lawyers the same question you usually get two different answers. If you ask "can I build on this land" you'll need to define exactly what you mean and need to address it to the person who makes that decision and have it all in simple but concise writing including the answer. People who spend time here - ie the local Portuguese - know what has happened locally in the past and what they can do without any official intervention. This is a person to person place and confronting people with some legal argument based on "research" which is actually a search engine's preference listing will not get you any friends. Talking to the local goat man in foreign as his goats eat your front lawn (as they have done since they were kids) and insisting he has a small very cold beer whilst ignoring the rank smell of someone whose annual spending is less then the cost of your shoes will get you information about what you can do acceptably and locally. You do need to spend time here and experience as much as possible before making a decision to live here or not. "Research" on the internet about a place which is not "internetted" but is on a person scale will only get you very biased internet answers.


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## John and Cecil

Thank you Strontium. It must be nice being that man with the goats, aside from the hygiene issues. To be innocent with everything that is happening in the world now, that is priceless. I am more worried about people like him accepting me than about me accepting him and his way of life.


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## HelenN

We're going ahead with the purchase. So, if we have any issues down the line I'll let you know of our experiences.


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## John and Cecil

HelenN said:


> We're going ahead with the purchase. So, if we have any issues down the line I'll let you know of our experiences.


Congratulations, you must be very excited!  Hopefully your closing will go smoothly. Good luck.


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## HelenN

Thank you. Still very stressed about it but I guess we'll see!


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## Strontium

Good luck - if not already done get copies of "land registry" entries (the updated ones if available) of the articles and the Promissory as these should show exactly what you are agreeing to purchase and for how much.


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## John and Cecil

HelenN said:


> Thank you. Still very stressed about it but I guess we'll see!


I understand Helen. Buying and selling a home is an emotional rollercoaster. But knowing and understanding this is half the battle. Try to remember this, and when something positive happens hold back your emotions and prepare yourself for something negative. And when something negative happens prepare yourself for something positive. Try to take the edge off the highs and the lows and "smooth" your emotions during the process. Faith helps too so have faith that whatever happens it will end up being for the best, for even the wisest people cannot see all ends.

Some realtors like to put you on the rollercoaster too. Realtors will try to make you emotional so that you will make mistakes. Most are not professionals in the sense that they wish to educate the public, they often just want money. My friend is looking to buy a house now too, my advice to her was to always take 24 hours to respond. Always sleep on it, let your subconscious mind toss it around for a while and let your emotions settle down before answering. When dealing with real estate agents try to show them a person that is calm and in control. 

A knowledge of some vocabulary of certain industry words helps too. I read about a study once about auto mechanics in the US. If a person asked about a repair and used the correct professional terms to describe it they often received a lower estimate. By talking their "auto-mechanic language" they assume that you either know what you are doing or that you already have estimates.

But for me my best negotiating chip is principle. They cannot get anywhere with me because I will walk away rather than be taken advantage of, within the rules of the contract of course. My last home sold for 800k, and I was willing to walk away over $200. First it was $2000, then $1000, then $200 or they were leaving. I called their bluff and they bought the house. They tried to put me on the rollercoaster but it backfired on them. 

Hopefully I will find more principle and less greed in Portuguese real estate transactions, but I will be ready for either. I will buy a house, or I will teach someone a lesson, but either way I will see it as a positive.


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## LukeJones

Hello,
I'd like to ask you all a question, please.
If you buy a rustic property with a very old house which has never been registered, when you ask the camera/junta to look at it for having it registered as a pre1951 habitable house, what things will the representative of the camera look for to identify if the building is a habitational house built before 1951?


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## Strontium

LukeJones said:


> Hello,
> I'd like to ask you all a question, please.
> If you buy a rustic property with a very old house which has never been registered, when you ask the camera/junta to look at it for having it registered as a pre1951 habitable house, what things will the representative of the camera look for to identify if the building is a habitational house built before 1951?


Though things here are flexibly administered generally, as found in the "land registry listing", it is taken as rustic article = rustic land whereas habitation article = property/house. A building on a rustic article will be taken to be some type of agricultural building, A house with garden will be one article of habitation (the house) and a separate and different article of rustic (the garden) so any building on rustic is an agricultural building and not for habitation even if people may have lived in it previously. There is flexibility for things like staying there for harvesting crops etc. Local council is unlikely to reclassify rustic as habitation unless it's in an area zoned development/reclassification but then it will need to done as as a building project (planning permission) to the latest building standards.


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## LukeJones

So a certificate of isenção de licença for being pre1951 is of no advantage if the land is "rustic" and the house doesn't have an "article".


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## Strontium

Get a copy of the "land registry" listing, you may find it is not to to date,if the case then sometime it should be updated and include any changes in classification if applicable, the vendor is responsible for having this up to date for a sale but may wait till a sale is likely. Whichever local agent is dealing with the sale should also be able to supply the existing listing(s) If everyone is unsure of the actual article number(s) go see the council (if covid allows) which administers the area and enquire as they should have the latest distributions which are on their local map.


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## LukeJones

The property I'm looking at is classified as pinhal, and only one article, nothing else. But it has a very old house of 58m squared, and two other smaller stone buildings. The land is terraced, so I do not believe it was really pinhal. It looks like a garden. So it looks like it has been wrongly classified. Could this be trouble? Could the camera order me to demolish the house after buying it?


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## Strontium

Sorry but that's outside my experience.
As a guess, also knowing the issues with forest fires in recent years, I'd say pinhal is basically forest and you'd not be allowed to live there. The Camera can and does enforce the habitation rules but sometimes in random ways so, if you up to date paperwork, the best to contact them.


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## LukeJones

Strontium said:


> Sorry but that's outside my experience.
> As a guess, also knowing the issues with forest fires in recent years, I'd say pinhal is basically forest and you'd not be allowed to live there. The Camera can and does enforce the habitation rules but sometimes in random ways so, if you up to date paperwork, the best to contact them.


Hello, Sorry, I've just had the Caderneta and it says "Pastagem e mato", not pinhal. Does that make any difference?


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## Tashaw

Hello there, just wondering how you got on with the land purchase and the habitation licence as we are in exactly the same position. We found the perfect place for our family but it is classified as rustic land even though there is a house on the land. It is schist I believe and there is a big barn attached that we would love to renovate and turn into a kitchen/dining/living area. We are tempted to just buy it and hope for the best but trying to find out as much as we can about this unusual situation! Any info gratefully received 🙏


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## LukeJones

no updates I'm afraid. I just got ignorance from the owner to my offer. Looks like you have to insist that the current owner get the house registered and a certificate of isensao before selling it to you.


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## Tashaw

Thank you @LukeJones. What about you @HelenN?


HelenN said:


> Has anyone had experience of buying a property on rustic land? I understand that is almost impossible to live on rustic land but the place we are looking at has a building already on it that had been previously lived in (but not now). I've got a lawyer looking into it but I was wondering if anyone knew anything about how likely it would be that we could live there and renovate it.
> 
> Thanks.


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## Holly Hare

Strontium said:


> Basically as above about Habitation.
> 
> If you get a useful Lawyer they often have direct access to the "land registry" listings of properties and for a small fee print you copies (some Estate Agents will do this as well). Properties are classed as Articles so - usually a house is one article and the listing will say how many square meters of habitation and year of construction - obviously there may have been additional parts built subsequently which may not be registered as habitation. . Garden land is a different Article and may be classed "Rustic" and the listing will say so many square meters of Rustic land, how many olive trees, orange trees etc On the ground there should be markers which correspond to the land BUT as the local tax is paid on the areas involved they may be under declared - estimated that the total declared land in Portugal is only 90% of the real area of Portugal. Often you will find the older rural houses have not had the paperwork updated recently but in the event of a sale the paperwork should be updated so the copy you are handed at the sale time should reflect what you are actually buying and possibly not what you think you are buying. Additionally it is possible to borrow money against property which is then part of the property so the debt goes with the property not the person so you may see a nice house which looks - on paper - cheaper than a similar house next door but comes with a debt. It is reasonably clear how things are done and you don't need a great understanding of Portuguese to navigate the pit falls. With a "land registry" listing and copy of a Promissory you'll be able to work it out yourself - I'll see if I can find examples of these paperwork to make it easier to understand.


Hi there, I am trying to PM you but Im new to here so apparently I cant yet! How can i get in touch with you please? Holly


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## Strontium

Holly Hare said:


> Hi there, I am trying to PM you but Im new to here so apparently I cant yet! How can i get in touch with you please? Holly


Hi,
Think you'll need 6 posts before PM becomes active so, maybe, just post some random stuff. I don't think I'm allowed to put my email address on the open forum.


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## staceymstuart

Strontium said:


> It is common in older working Rural houses here to have animal accommodation on the ground floor and human accommodation directly above to make two stories and usually the the total house floor area is counted as habitation (including the ground floor). . additional lean to or separate sheds are not usually included as habitation. Get the article number(s) and copy of paperwork as this will list the total habitation area etc, you do not need any formal paperwork to get copies of article listings just someone with access. PM me if you have no way of doing this and I'll ask someone - it will cost maybe a few euro for a copy to be printed and posted to you. Do this for any property you may be interested in rather then guess at what is on offer. Sorry if this is confused a bit but was written is haste as am on way to station. Also for older buildings pre1951? the front appearance should remain the same but the rest can be any sort of Fairy Palace your heart desires.


 Similar situation- we have a letter from the câmara confirming the property is pre 1951; however it appears as though previous owners made some changes… eg. Adding a garage above the area that was a cellar. Changes were triggered in the finanças in 1991, but no corresponding paperwork. You stated the front of the building must remain the same, which it has. Would this indicate that we do not need the garage legalized?


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## Strontium

Hi,

Basically I'd go by the "land registry" listing and initially work out if the floor area of the rooms you'd live in are the same as "habitable area" If the building looks similar from the front and the living area is as on the paperwork then all should be OK. A garage is not "habitation" so should be considered as temporary/shed/barn and probably not included on the "land registry" listing. Different local authorities etc. take different views and enforce their own interpenetration of the regulations but generally they are flexible, relaxed and slow and only cause problems if a local thug/solicitor pursues the issue.


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