# Do we need a visa and can we run a gîtes? British man married to Dutch Lady.



## Penny McDutchy

I am dutch and my husband is british, we are residents in the UK and intending on buying a gîtes business in France. First of all: does my husband need a visa if staying longer then 90 days. Secondly: are we allowed to run a gîtes business and only staying in France for 180 days? And do we pay taxes over that business in France, but without becoming tax compliant for our other assets? We only want to run the business during spring, summer and bit of autumn. I have looked at the french visa website, but it isn't very clear. I would be happy to speak to “professionals” about this, perhaps someone can recommend a company for visa and tax questions. Merci penny


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## Bevdeforges

France doesn't operate on that 183 day criteria (i.e. if you are in the country for 183 days in a year then you are considered "tax resident"). There are three criteria for being considered tax resident in France and one of those is that you are conducting business in France - which owning and running a gites business would seem to fulfill.

This is from the French Fisc website: Residents of France.


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## EuroTrash

If you, as the EU spouse of a Brit, live permanently in the UK, then your hubby would not qualify for a residence permit in France. So he would not have the automatic right to work in France, and I believe he would be limited to 90/180 in France but I'm not totally sure on that. 

There is nothing to stop non-residents buying or setting up a standalone business entity in France, there are many foreign-owned businesses in France. If the owners are non executive or if they do their decision-making remotely from their home country then the business entity is taxable in France but they as individuals are not. It's when they themselves work for that business on French soil, that things get complicated.


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## ccm47

As part of your business planning, now would be a VERY good time to look and see just how many gîtes are still available for this summer in the area you plan to open in. A link is here:Location de vacances - Gîtes, Chambres d'hôtes | Gîtes de France®.
I happened to look at it last night and there were 20+ pages of gîtes with availability for this month in my département alone! August had less choice. I didn't look beyond that. Our CenterParcs however say that they are fully booked for the season, so people do want to come here.


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## Penny McDutchy

Thank you for all your advice. I think we are going to need a company tohelp with visa and tax. The french visa application website says that british spouses can join EU member spouses for longer periods of time, it says: 

*British citizens, married to EU nationals, wishing to settle or reside more than 90 days in France *(at the same time as their spouse or rejoining him/her) will not require a settlement visa (pursuant to the EU Directive 2004/38).
however when we fill in the questionnaire it does state that he would need it, so bit confused, unless he needs a visa regardless of his marital status.

we have already owned a holiday home in france before, we sold it in 2010, so familiar with process, but that was before we took early retirement, so much to find out about taxes et.

Thanks again for all your help.


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## Bevdeforges

The rules you are looking for are not those that pertain to British citizens, but rather to third country nationals (i.e. non-EU nationals) looking to move to France with their EU national spouse. No, your husband won't need a visa - but there is a process on arrival for the non-EU member of the couple to request a carte de séjour as the spouse of an EU national.

Basically, the card must be applied for within the first 90 days that you are in France. What is required are the usual sorts of identity documents for both partners, including specifically proof of the EU spouse's nationality and "statut" (i.e. what they are doing in France) plus proof of health insurance coverage for both spouses. It is assumed that the EU national is in France either based on their work, or as an "inactif" (usually means someone on retirement with a pension but in the case of early retirees, you need enough savings and investments to live off for the foreseeable future - not just for a year or two ). The EU national also is presumed to be the one with the "financial resources" adequate to cover the stay in France and that they have secured a residence - so proof of residence in France.

In your case, it might be advisable to be well into the process of setting up your business - including the registrations with the tax and social insurance agencies. Possibly even be in process of the purchase of your property/business.


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## Crabtree

I think what you are trying to do is to live in two different countries ie France and the UK and at the same time,set up and run a business in France Would that be a correct assumption? You also state that you are both early retired. If so are you drawing a pension and if so is it a private/occupational pension? The reason for asking these questions is to try and advise what is the best thing for you.If the answer to the first part is "YES" then I think you are going to overcomplicate things immensely resulting in you having to pay people to sort out the tax issues and perhaps ending up in a bit of a muddle.Are there reasons for you wanting to stay in the UK for part of the year eg family ties? Would it not be simpler to move to France permanently selling up your current uk home and buying a small place in the UK as a second home that you can visit if needed.In relation to running a gites etc there is no law that says you have to open all year in fact many do not.The other thing to bear in mind is that if you run a business then as well as French tax you will need to pay healthcare contributions social charges etc whereas if you move over with a pension then healthcare in France will be non contributory and what type of pension you have will determine where you pay tax on it .
As an EU passport holder you can come and go as you please but your husband cannot.However if you move permanently to France and run the business then your husband can join but he will need to apply for a carte de Sejour within ninety days of arrival in France being the spouse of an EU national as opposed to having to get a Visa before hand.
In fact the person who writes this blog has contributed on here and this is his experience of a similar situation to yours.








Carte de Sèjour - Le Portanel


This weekend we welcomed our 40th guest (excluding family etc) to Le Portanel since we opened for business at the start of May and the bookings keep coming in which is great. It can ibe hard work, there is no doubt about that, but we have some quieter days and make sure we have our down




leportanel.com


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## Penny McDutchy

Crabtree said:


> I think what you are trying to do is to live in two different countries ie France and the UK and at the same time,set up and run a business in France Would that be a correct assumption? You also state that you are both early retired. If so are you drawing a pension and if so is it a private/occupational pension? The reason for asking these questions is to try and advise what is the best thing for you.If the answer to the first part is "YES" then I think you are going to overcomplicate things immensely resulting in you having to pay people to sort out the tax issues and perhaps ending up in a bit of a muddle.Are there reasons for you wanting to stay in the UK for part of the year eg family ties? Would it not be simpler to move to France permanently selling up your current uk home and buying a small place in the UK as a second home that you can visit if needed.In relation to running a gites etc there is no law that says you have to open all year in fact many do not.The other thing to bear in mind is that if you run a business then as well as French tax you will need to pay healthcare contributions social charges etc whereas if you move over with a pension then healthcare in France will be non contributory and what type of pension you have will determine where you pay tax on it .
> As an EU passport holder you can come and go as you please but your husband cannot.However if you move permanently to France and run the business then your husband can join but he will need to apply for a carte de Sejour within ninety days of arrival in France being the spouse of an EU national as opposed to having to get a Visa before hand.
> In fact the person who writes this blog has contributed on here and this is his experience of a similar situation to yours.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> Carte de Sèjour - Le Portanel
> 
> 
> This weekend we welcomed our 40th guest (excluding family etc) to Le Portanel since we opened for business at the start of May and the bookings keep coming in which is great. It can ibe hard work, there is no doubt about that, but we have some quieter days and make sure we have our down
> 
> 
> 
> 
> leportanel.com


Thanks crabtree, the running of a small gîte is just an idea atm, yes we have children and grandchildren in the UK. Moving permanently to France wouldnt be beneficial for taxes, we would be hammered for wealth tax and on our other assets in the UK, therefor we will need to get advice from a professional in order to ascertain how this would work and the associated costs.

Thanks for your advice. 
penny


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## Bevdeforges

Penny McDutchy said:


> therefor we will need to get advice from a professional in order to ascertain how this would work and the associated costs.


Be careful what sort of a "tax advisor" you consult. We've had lots of folks from the UK through here who were assured by a UK tax advisor that their plan to live part time in France and part time in the UK would be "no problem." But the French tax authorities had a very different take on the situation. 

There are ways to live part-time in France without being considered "resident" for tax (or other) purposes. However, with a third country spouse, you'll be limited to no more than 90 days in any rolling 180 day period. And, if you take up running a business in France while you are here, you're considered "tax resident" no matter how many days you are in France to run the business.

It sounds like what you want to do here is to continue residing in the UK, with a house in France you can visit. The only practical way to avoid French taxation would be for you to buy into an existing business but as shareholders who are not involved in running the business. Gites are not horribly profitable businesses, and I fear that the expenses you would incur in maintaining your "passive owner" status would outweigh any benefits from owning a gite because you would have to hire staff and pay their wages and social insurances.


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## Yours truly confused

Bevdeforges said:


> Gites are not horribly profitable businesses, and I fear that the expenses you would incur in maintaining your "passive owner" status would outweigh any benefits from owning a gite because you would have to hire staff and pay their wages and social insurances.


This! I know of 3 owners of gite businesses, that’s multiple gites each, that have sold up in the last couple of years because the sums just don’t add up. One couple, very good friends of ours, ran their business a little like you are suggesting, had done for 15 years. Over the last 5 years the cost of just owning and maintaining the gites went from 5 weeks rental income to 8 weeks, which, when you are only renting for half the year is quite significant. On top of that the cost for the cleaners went up, as did their living costs, food, fuel etc. They came to the conclusion 2 years ago that the increases in costs were not sustainable and that the clients would not be prepared to pay the increase in rent that would be required to cover those costs. They sold their gites and they are now, all, private second homes. Think long and hard about whether the sums add up.


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