# USA 2013 - FBAR doubt



## SudsJ

Hi Experts, 
I searched the forum on FBAR and found many answers to my questions. My question now is;
Say, I've 2 accounts in a foreign country with highest value $20000 in A on 1st June 2012 and $15000 in B on 1st Aug 2012 but never more than $10000 any single day of the year, do I need to fill FBAR form? 

Or 

Is it the aggregate of highest value any day of the year => $20K + $15K = $35K for year 2012?

Unclear on this, Please explain. Thanks in advance


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## BBCWatcher

I'm confused by your math. The threshold is $10K, and figures like $20K and $15K are obviously greater than $10K.


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## SudsJ

Apologies. Consider 5k and 6k instead of 15 and 20.


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## BBCWatcher

According to the rules, you must file if "the aggregate value of all foreign financial accounts exceeded $10,000 at any time during the calendar year to be reported."

That's quite clear. In your example if the two accounts never held $6K and $5K (or $5K and $5000.01, etc.) _at the same time_ then you would not meet the reporting threshold.


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## SudsJ

Thanks. I understood the same and needed an expert opinion. Appreciate it.


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## SSapro20

1.Helppp...So I am confused about this whole FBAR filing.You have to file an FBAR if you had more than 10K in one day????So if you have 7K in checking acct in one day and you have another 8K in the saving acc in a different day you do not file an FBAR????Is this correct?????

2.I have a GC , I never lived in US but I am married with a US citizen.If I am required to file an FBAR do I need to write down NRA for me or I have to write also my SSN since I have one?????


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## BBCWatcher

Read. The. Instructions. They're clear. If the aggregate (which means total) exceeded US$10,000 at any time during the year, then you meet the threshold for reporting. If not, you don't.

The instructions demand your Social Security number or ITN. Got one? Yes, you report it in the space provided on the form.

There is no penalty for filing if you're not required to file. There is a penalty for failing to file (or filing untruthfully) if you are required to file.

This is not hard. Really, really not.


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## SSapro20

I just wonder if I can file the FBAR online for this year or should I mail them in ???Is this FBAR online thing working this year???


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## Bevdeforges

SSapro20 said:


> 1.Helppp...So I am confused about this whole FBAR filing.You have to file an FBAR if you had more than 10K in one day????So if you have 7K in checking acct in one day and you have another 8K in the saving acc in a different day you do not file an FBAR????Is this correct?????


If the total of the accounts held outside the US never exceeded $10K, then you do not need to file.



> 2.I have a GC , I never lived in US but I am married with a US citizen.If I am required to file an FBAR do I need to write down NRA for me or I have to write also my SSN since I have one?????


How do you have a green card if you have never lived in the US? (Come to think of it, how do you have a SSN if you've never lived in the US?) If you are married to a US citizen then THEY must file the FBAR if they have signature authority over accounts totaling over $10K at any point in the year. If you hold a joint account with the US citizen, then they can list you as the "other" account holder.
Cheers,
Bev


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## SSapro20

*I been caught in this mess without my will...*



> How do you have a green card if you have never lived in the US?
> Cheers,
> Bev


I applied for this GC at the consulate 4 years ago,thinking we were going to leave Germany to go to live in US but that never happened due to my husband job(he got extended)so we ended it up staying here and I kept the GC in case we were going to visit US every now and than......Now,years later... I am shocked about the whole FBAR jihad etc....I have accts in my country of residence which is normal,right?I am the main holder on these accts,I just add my husband name on the accts for bills purposes back in 2010...if I knew then the whole FBAR thing I wasn't going to do that..I never heard of these FBARS untill recently...so yeah I guess are foreign accts since I resided here all those years and never in USA...I am in a big mess because I never heard of FBARS etc...


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## BBCWatcher

"Dumb" question: how is your U.S. green card still valid four years after application if you never took up residence in the United States?


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## SSapro20

BBCWatcher said:


> "Dumb" question: how is your U.S. green card still valid four years after application if you never took up residence in the United States?


I do not have idea..and I couldn't find anyone who can help me on this matter.....I am confused and I don't know where to seek help.Everyone I asked they were saying because I have a GC card I have a FBAR obligation which is so unfair....Is a FBAR issue or a Immigration issue...Last time I was in USA for 10 days was in 09 just to visit..than I went back to visit US back in 2012 also for 2 weeks and they did not wanna let me enter US...but eventually they did...So I need some answers on this but I don't know where to get any help..


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## BBCWatcher

You've let your U.S. legal permanent residence lapse due to failure to reside in the U.S. Consult this page for more information.

You can officially cancel your green card by filling out an I-407 form -- you can find it online. Drop off the form and your green card either at a U.S. embassy/consulate or at the U.S. CBP checkpoint when you enter the U.S. Note that you must apply for ESTA travel approval prior to visiting the U.S. (I'm assuming you're Belgian.)

Your U.S. citizen-spouse still has a filing requirement.


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## SSapro20

BBCWatcher;
Your U.S. citizen-spouse still has a filing requirement.[/QUOTE said:


> Yeah I know NOW that he will have to file an FBAR (thanks to me....) even the acct is mine...So how this will be done because I have a saving acct but is only on my name and the joint checking acct is mine but I added his name on it in 2010.
> My husband don't have to do anything with this acct and the reason for filing this FBAR is me... because I was transferring same money back and forth from savings to checking...
> So he will need to file the fbar form part 3 on joint accts and I have to sign this as well or how this will work?I should list also my saving acct "only" on my name or how this will work ???


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## Bevdeforges

You may have gotten a visa for the US 4 years ago, but you would not have gotten a green card until you arrived in the US (and even then, it takes a couple of weeks to pass the appropriate paperwork).

You do NOT have a green card, nor any obligation to file US taxes. Your husband, if he is a US citizen, does. He only needs to report the accounts over which he has signature authority (i.e. those you hold in common, plus any he has in his own name), along with filing his own US income taxes. You're entirely off the hook until you actually land in the US and are considered a "resident alien" - which you aren't just now.
Cheers,
Bev


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## SSapro20

Bev, my husband was filing taxes every year of course but we just found out about the FBARS .... I am a resident of Germany but I am a EU citizen of course.So when he files the FBAR, he has to fill the part that says signature authority not the joint part is that correct????
I am going through hell, because of this GC I have and this FBAR nightmare situation and some poor advise from some "professionals"
Like I said in my previous post if I knew this back in 2010 when I put him on my acct I would never have done that but I did it because of some cell phone bills on his name and he was required to have a German acct and I had one which was free.....


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## Bevdeforges

If you have never lived in the US you do not have a green card.

Your husband should report his foreign accounts - both those in his name and those you hold jointly. He can indicate simply "NRA spouse" for the joint holder.
Cheers,
Bev


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## SSapro20

He is only on one acct.And I am the main holder and I added it his name on that acct that mean I have to fill part IV or part III the one with joint holder on it??I know how to fill that form is not hard but which one I should fill?3 or 4 and we should both signed it???Did you file your FBAR for this year online or you mailed it in?Thanks


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## Nononymous

Slow down. Take a deep breath. This is not Raketenwissenschaft. 

You don't need to fill anything out. You have no green card, no relationship with or obligations to the US government.

Your husband *may* need to fill out an FBAR form for one or more accounts. (Signing authority + combined balance over $10k at any point during the year.) Apparently this is a minor ordeal, and the risk of penalty for ordinary non-criminals is largely hypothetical.

Relax.


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## BBCWatcher

Yes, this is your husband's sole responsibility since he is a U.S. citizen. You do not fill in the form, and you do not sign it. (Though I'd prefer you fill in USCIS Form I-407 and return your green card to make your status perfectly clear.) If this account is the only non-U.S. account with his name then as Nononymous says he then considers whether the value of that one account exceeded US$10,000 at any time. If yes, he would file the FBAR form for any/every calendar year when that condition was true at any time. He would start with calendar year 2010, so as I write this he has 3 years to consider (2010 to 2012 inclusive).

Whether he fills out Part III or Part IV depends on the nature of the account. Probably Part III based on your description, but he should just check the instructions.

I disagree with Nononymous on one point. If you have a Social Security number or ITN then your husband includes that in the space provided on the form when he files (if he's required to file). But that's your husband's job, not yours. He's the one with the citizenship so it's his legal responsibility.


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## Bevdeforges

SSapro20 said:


> He is only on one acct.And I am the main holder and I added it his name on that acct that mean I have to fill part IV or part III the one with joint holder on it??I know how to fill that form is not hard but which one I should fill?3 or 4 and we should both signed it???Did you file your FBAR for this year online or you mailed it in?Thanks


It does not matter who is the "primary" holder of the account. Your husband is the only US citizen or permanent resident in your household. It is HIS responsibility to file an FBAR (or not) - not yours.

What, exactly, do you have in your possession that you are calling a "green card?" If it's an unvalidated visa, then it expired a long time ago when you failed to enter the US by the date on the visa. If you wish to relocate to the US, you are going to have to start the visa process all over again. (Family member of a friend of mine is going through this.)
Cheers,
Bev


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## BBCWatcher

A U.S. "green card" is officially USCIS Form I-551. Do you have an I-551 (conditional or otherwise)?

My guess is the original poster did enter the U.S. in 2009 (as she reported) and did obtain an I-551 during that brief visit. But she did not take up residence in the U.S., so her permanent residence status lapsed. That resulted in her having difficulty entering the U.S. for her most recent (second) short visit. It would thus be prudent to return her I-551 by filing USCIS Form I-407 with her local U.S. consulate or with U.S. CBP if her next visit to the U.S. is coming soon. (She would need ESTA travel approval prior to travel to U.S.) However, that's just a guess, and I await the original poster's clarification.


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## SSapro20

BBCWatcher said:


> A U.S. "green card" is officially USCIS Form I-551. Do you have an I-551 (conditional or otherwise)?
> 
> Yes I have this form I-551 in plastic which is good for 10 years
> 
> My guess is the original poster did enter the U.S. in 2009 (as she reported) and did obtain an I-551 during that brief visit. But she did not take up residence in the U.S., so her permanent residence status lapsed. That resulted in her having difficulty entering the U.S. for her most recent (second) short visit.
> 
> Yes that's what I did but before entering US in 12 last time I was in US was in 09 just for a week,never was there more than 2 weeks.
> 
> It would thus be prudent to return her I-551 by filing USCIS Form I-407 with her local U.S. consulate or with U.S. CBP if her next visit to the U.S. is coming soon. (She would need ESTA travel approval prior to travel to U.S.) However, that's just a guess, and I await the original poster's clarification.
> 
> I will do this next week at the consulate as I am so sick of the whole deal and I am caught in this mess because of a GC that I have but I never lived in US nor had any US income...


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## BBCWatcher

OK, thanks for confirming. Yes, you have the I-551 plastic card. What you don't have is legal U.S. permanent residence which requires actually living in the U.S. So you are no longer a permanent resident, and you probably never were (since you never took up actual residence in the U.S.) In other words, your I-551 is void.

Yes, fill out an I-407 form and bring it with your I-551 to the local U.S. consulate to return your I-551. Keep whatever form or receipt they give you together with your passport when you visit the U.S. in the future. (And apply for ESTA travel permission before any travel to the U.S.) That'll close everything out properly, and yes, only your husband has his U.S. filing requirements to handle on his own.

The reason you had trouble with CBP in 2012 is that you were absent from the U.S. for so long, and they were highly inclined to think you were no longer a permanent resident (if you ever were). They were not wrong. If you've been absent from the U.S. for more than a year without an adequate explanation -- and maybe even less than that -- they'll probably at least ask questions.

Please note that, as Bev (I think) mentioned, if you want to stay in the U.S. as more than a tourist you'll have to apply for another green card (I-551). Really you already have to do that since you've lost U.S. permanent residence by your inaction, so you've most probably crossed that bridge already. It's expensive and time-consuming to apply for a green card as you probably know, but there's nothing you can do about that. I'm just making sure you're aware that you have to go through that process again if/when you want to move to the U.S. with your husband. And you have to apply from outside the U.S.


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## SSapro20

Ok Thank you so much ,that helps allot to know if this is true.....I been going through hell since I found out about this FBAR jihad...
Now what part of FBAR does he need to fill out?Part 3 or 4?
His bank wire every month some money from his US acct to the German acct under 300 euros.
I am the one who's doing online things and of course moving money around for different needs..
He really don't do allot with this acct but paying phone bills,car repairs,etc....so is it joint or he has signature authority..To me seems that he has signature authority..Another thing:his name and my name appears on the bank statements..

I need some help on this one,for ex: I had 7K in my checking acct one day than 2 days later I transferred from my saving into checking 2K and one day I transferred another 2K.Does he needs to file FBAR because it went over 10K all those days together ????Thanks..


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## Nononymous

I believe joint is more or less equivalent to signature authority, no? If his name appears on the statement, safe to assume it's his account from the US government's perspective.

Look, the math is fairly simple. If on any one day in a calendar year the combined total balance of all accounts with your husband's name on them exceeds $10k, he qualifies to file an FBAR for that year. 

Your example really doesn't really say whether money is going out of the checking account, or whether your husband's name is only on the checking account. However, keeping it simple, if you make two transfers of 2k into an account starting at 7k then yes, logically, given that 7+2+2=11, the balance would be 11k and bingo, he is over 10k and needs to file (all amounts US$ of course, not euro).

I cannot believe I am *this* bored at work today, given that I refuse to file the things myself. While I'm no fan of the FBAR, I'd scarcely call it a jihad, given the low risk of penalty.


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## SSapro20

Math is not my strongest skill when it comes to FBARs...Thanks for your patience Nononymous


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## BBCWatcher

It's a joint account from your description. But your husband needs to read the instructions and complete the form. He is solely responsible for that filing.


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## Bevdeforges

If both your names are on the account and either of you can make deposits and withdrawals from the account, then it's a joint account and should be reported as such (if he needs to report at all). 

The "signature authority" section is for professional accounts - i.e. where you have signature authority over a business or association account. The official wording is something like "signature authority but no financial interest." Means that you can write checks on the account, but that the account is actually owned by an entity on whose behalf you are working.
Cheers,
Bev


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## SSapro20

Bevdeforges said:


> If both your names are on the account and either of you can make deposits and withdrawals from the account, then it's a joint account and should be reported as such (if he needs to report at all).
> 
> The "signature authority" section is for professional accounts - i.e. where you have signature authority over a business or association account. The official wording is something like "signature authority but no financial interest." Means that you can write checks on the account, but that the account is actually owned by an entity on whose behalf you are working.
> Cheers,
> Bev


Thank you ma'am..


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## BkkRick

*Small errors in filed FBAR*

Can anyone help?

I have filed the FBAR for each of the last ten years. However, I only found our about 8938 over the last month. I will need to amend my 2011 return to attach the 8938 for 2011. In filling out the 8938, I found that there were small errors on my FBAR for 2011. I underestimated one account by $75,000 (7% of maximum balance) and left off an inactive checking account with $300 in it. I plan to file the 8938 for 2011 with the correct information. Should I amend the 2011 FBAR?

Thank you for your help.


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## Bevdeforges

I'm not sure you can amend an FBAR. But the 2012 FBARs are due at the end of this month. Just make your corrections on the current filing and let it go. 
Cheers,
Bev


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## BBCWatcher

Bevdeforges said:


> I'm not sure you can amend an FBAR.


You can. The IRS explains how (scroll down).

Given that Form 8938 could be cross-checked with FBAR -- that'd be a pretty obvious audit screen anyway -- I would recommend amending the FBAR per the IRS's instructions.


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