# Refugees in Spain



## expatlora1 (Jul 30, 2014)

Hi! 
I was just wondering what the situation is with refugees in Spain. Is it as out of order as in the rest of the EU? We were recently in Barcelona and Valencia and did see a few waiting for rides by the roadside. 
Giving some serious thought to moving to Spain, but obviously don't want to build a fortress to live in and don't want to be constantly looking over our shoulders either. It is quite disturbing to read what is going in the EU with regard to the attacks on women. 
Granted no country is 100% safe, but thought it better to ask to get some feedback from you guys already living there. Currently considering the Valencia area.
Thanks in advance.


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## MartinJames (Dec 20, 2009)

The news will always report bad news, stop watching it. 
Valencia area is muy bonita.
Just live your life and enjoy it! If you want to live in Spain just do it or you may regret it!!!


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## WomBatt (Sep 10, 2012)

What makes you think those waiting by the roadside are refugees?


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Around here the ones on the roadside are definitely not refugees.
lol


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Pazcat said:


> Around here the ones on the roadside are definitely not refugees.
> lol


... are they wearing yellow jackets and sitting on chairs?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

MartinJames said:


> The news will always report bad news, stop watching it.
> Valencia area is muy bonita.
> Just live your life and enjoy it! If you want to live in Spain just do it or you may regret it!!!


The advice in that last sentence could be good or bad depending on individual circumstances.
The same applies to the comments about the news. Not easy to avoid 'bad news' if you are the subject of it, for example having your benefits cut, being unemployed or having bombs rain down on you.

Having said that...the situation in Spain cannot be compared to that in Germany, Austria or the Scandinavian countries. For one thing, unlike Germany, Spain has not rushed in to welcome a million newcomers from a different culture without ensuring that facilities are available to provide a comparatively uncontroversial reception.
Yes, there are very many economic migrants from North Africa in Spain, most Muslim, but they have settled into Spanish life with few if any problems.
I think you need have no worries about the Cologne or Finnish events being copied in Spain, fortunately. Spain integrates well. 

I've been following comments in The Guardian and The Independent with interest and some wry amusement. We should all spare a thought for the mental anguish of 'liberal progressives' who are faced with what to them is a searing conflict between the rights of women to live freely and the fear of stirring up racism.
I think it's about the fact that some immigrants have yet to adapt to western cultural values relating to women. Bad behaviour that should be dealt with in the appropriate way. Racism shouldn't come into it (or anything for that matter) and this isn't about immigration or refugees as such, it's about theft and sexual assault by a mob of men.
White men have been known to do it too.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

snikpoh said:


> ... are they wearing yellow jackets and sitting on chairs?


Round here they would be sex workers. The police thoughtfully provided them with yellow jackets for their safety as they tend to congregate on a roundabout just outside Estepona, from where they ply their trade.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Seems that the OP is confusing refugees and immigrants and if s/he is looking to avoid immigrants then s/he would be wise to avoid large areas of the south of Spain which are full of British immigrants. In other areas of Spain, as in Europe in general we can find immigrants from China, Morrocco, Algeria, Senegal, Poland, Bulgaria, Colombia, Ecuador...
Places where you might not find many immigrants or refugees might include parts of India, Somalia, Burkina Faso, North Korea...


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

In this area, at this time of the year, we get a regular influx of Moroccans looking for work on the olives a few stay on permanently if they can find other work once the olive picking is over. On the whole they are much like peripatetic agricultural workers from any country. Many of the Spanish ones go to France, Germany, Switzerland, etc, to help with the seasonal work it is often the only way those trades can survive when there is insufficient work in any particular location for much of the year.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Here we have a purpose built fenced camp for those that arrive in open boats from Africa. 

However we haven't had any arrivals for a long time so the camp is empty and unused.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

mrypg9 said:


> Yes, there are very many economic migrants from North Africa in Spain, most Muslim, but they have settled into Spanish life with few if any problems.
> I think you need have no worries about the Cologne or Finnish events being copied in Spain, fortunately. Spain integrates well.


I agree with you, on the whole. There have been some incidents of conflict between immigrants and locals in certain areas, though - most recently the murder of an African man in Roquetas de Mar, for which 3 Spanish gypsies have been arrested. There have been other disturbances in that particular town over the past few years.

Violencia en Roquetas de Mar tras matar un grupo de gitanos a un guineano - Incidentes violentos - Noticias, última hora, vídeos y fotos de Incidentes violentos en lainformacion.com


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

If Eurostat is correct, Spain has taken fewer migrants than most European countries. It would be the least of my worries.

Call me racist if you like but I think what happened in Germany is entirely different to the normal type of sexual assault. As was the grooming cases in more than 17 towns in the UK. I suppose "cultural differences" is a nice PC way of putting it


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Seems that the OP is confusing refugees and immigrants and if s/he is looking to avoid immigrants then s/he would be wise to avoid large areas of the south of Spain which are full of British immigrants. In other areas of Spain, as in Europe in general we can find immigrants from China, Morrocco, Algeria, Senegal, Poland, Bulgaria, Colombia, Ecuador...
> Places where you might not find many immigrants or refugees might include parts of India, Somalia, Burkina Faso, North Korea...


What makes you think that the OP is confusing refugees and immigrants?:confused2:


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Lynn R said:


> I agree with you, on the whole. There have been some incidents of conflict between immigrants and locals in certain areas, though - most recently the murder of an African man in Roquetas de Mar, for which 3 Spanish gypsies have been arrested. There have been other disturbances in that particular town over the past few years.
> 
> Violencia en Roquetas de Mar tras matar un grupo de gitanos a un guineano - Incidentes violentos - Noticias, última hora, vídeos y fotos de Incidentes violentos en lainformacion.com


Yes, I read about that. But am I right in saying this was less of a clash of culture than racist tensions heightened by availability of employment opportunities for one ethnic group at the expense of another?
When you look more closely at what are often branded as 'racist incidents' there's often a social (lack of housing) or economic (lack of jobs, reduced wages) at the root f it. That's why I think t a big mistake to dismiss those in favour of tighter border controls, less immigration, as racists or bigots (as Gordon Brown discovered in the Mrs Duffy incident).
The Cologne events seem to be about people (men) who have a lot to learn about customs and culture relating to women in western society. Nothing to do with immigration per se, or racism. Neither can it be put down to 'young men not having their girlfriends around' as girlfriends with or without premarital sex as I don't think there's much of either in Muslim countries.
It's a culture clash. Happens everywhere in one form or another when people with different values and habits come together.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

jimenato said:


> What makes you think that the OP is confusing refugees and immigrants?:confused2:


Because of this in the OP


> I was just wondering what the situation is with refugees in Spain. Is it as out of order as in the rest of the EU? *We were recently in Barcelona and Valencia and did see a few waiting for rides by the roadside.*


Do refugees wait by the side of the road in Barcelona?:confused2:


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Whilst extremely disturbing (and criminality which needs to be clamped down upon, immediately and severely) such large scale attacks on women have been seen before in other countries, not involving Muslims.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rican_Day_Parade_attacks


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Years ago some teenage girls in the town where I live talked about being surrounded by muslim boys. An intimidating act, but without the sexual contact.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Isobella said:


> If Eurostat is correct, Spain has taken fewer migrants than most European countries. It would be the least of my worries.
> 
> Call me racist if you like but I think what happened in Germany is entirely different to the normal type of sexual assault. As was the grooming cases in more than 17 towns in the UK. I suppose "cultural differences" is a nice PC way of putting it


I'm not sure what constitutes a 'normal' sexual assault apart from the fact that every sexual assault involves a form of power over women but no, you aren't racist in pointing out that these assaults are different in that they come from a group of men whose cultural heritage predisposes them to regard women as inferior beings who must be kept under male domination in every aspect of their lives.
Sometimes I feel that some western men are actually quite frightened and resentful of the increased status and visibility of women in every walk of life so their expressions of sexual violence stems from a different cultural perspective.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Spain's policy is very similar to the UK's. It has agreed to take around 14,000 refugees/asylum seekers/economic migrants under the EU redistribution scheme. Like the UK they are hand-picking them from the camps in Turkey etc. 

However Spain has had asylum seekers/economic migrants arriving on its shores for many years, mainly from sub-Saharan Africa via Morocco. They come on small boats or inflatable rafts and land mainly on the southern Mediterranean coast; fewer these days arrive in the Canaries. Some are returned to Morocco, others are held in camps, others just disappear, so it isn't known how many remain in the country. 

The numbers have increased in recent years, to over 6,000 in the first half of 2015. Around half of these were seeking asylum, and are mainly from Syria.

Spain can also "boast" the first razor-wire fences built to keep them out, in Melilla and Ceuta, which are part of Spain but located on the Moroccan coast.

Lots of facts and figures here:

"El número de inmigrantes y refugiados llegados a España se ha duplicado" | Actualidad | Cadena SER


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

I meant to say in my last post that misguided fear of talking frankly about these cultural differences, call it 'pc' if you like, has caused more harm and provoked more anti-foreigner sentiment than the BNP could ever manage to do, not to mention the real physical and emotional harm caused to the children and women involved.
The so-called liberal 'progressives' have a lot to answer for here, imo.
Part of the problem for these 'progressives' as I see it goes back to that infamous Enoch Powell speech, in which he falsely but irrevocably linked inextricably being against unrestricted immigration with racism. Since then any mention of wanting to restrict immigration, a perfectly reasonable stance - no country in the world has completely open borders - has been immediately construed as 'racist' and dismissed.
Take UKIP, a legitimate UK political party. Anyone bothering to look at its policy statements would see it is a libertarian, right-wing Party which has as part of its programme curbs on mass immigration. Its economic policy is free market, it sees taxation and redistribution as very bad things. A post on this Forum described UKIPPERs as 'the BNP in suits'. Yet many of the BNP social policies, like those of Marine Le Pen's Front National, are more similar to those of the Labour Party. But to far too many on the Left, UKIP is about nothing other than 'anti-immigration' so must therefore be racist.
If so, there are four million plus racists in the UK, as that is the number of votes UKIP won last May ( and got one seat in Parliament...)
Until knees stop jerking on both Left and Right of the political spectrum and stat looking objectively at what is a very real problem, more incidents of the kind seen in Cologne will occur.
A million more immigrants are expected in Europe in 2016, most from Muslim states. Someone had better start doing something to educate these new arrivals about what we expect as acceptable behaviour in our western societies. 
Conform...or stay home.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I'm not sure what constitutes a 'normal' sexual assault apart from the fact that every sexual assault involves a form of power over women but no, you aren't racist in pointing out that these assaults are different in that they come from a group of men whose cultural heritage predisposes them to regard women as inferior beings who must be kept under male domination in every aspect of their lives.
> Sometimes I feel that some western men are actually quite frightened and resentful of the increased status and visibility of women in every walk of life so their expressions of sexual violence stems from a different cultural perspective.


Mry you are being extremely sexist and I am ashamed of you. There have been many cases where males have also been subject to sexual assault. not as many as involving female victims but the receipt of assault, sexual or otherwise, is not always gender biased.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> Mry you are being extremely sexist and I am ashamed of you. There have been many cases where males have also been subject to sexual assault. not as many as involving female victims but the receipt of assault, sexual or otherwise, is not always gender biased.



You are 100% correct, Baldy and I unreservedly apologise. I should have left out the words 'over women'.
Men are in fact less likely to report sexual assault, for obvious reasons.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Males can also of course be subject to so-called 'domestic' violence whih is why I don't like the term 'violencia machista'.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

snikpoh said:


> ... are they wearing yellow jackets and sitting on chairs?


do they wear that much?! 


not around here they don't...


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

xabiachica said:


> do they wear that much?!
> 
> 
> not around here they don't...


Absolutely correct - the law (rules) state that they should, but they don't. In fact, last time I went down the N332 to Javea, most were wearing very little indeed!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

snikpoh said:


> Absolutely correct - the law (rules) state that they should, but they don't. In fact, last time I went down the N332 to Javea, most were wearing very little indeed!


Poor girls. They are obviously working to be able to afford to buy winter clothing...


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

I suggest you folks retire to La Tasca - this thread is in the main forum and was just asking for information! :eyebrows:


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## expatlora1 (Jul 30, 2014)

So looks like we've got a bit of a debate going on. We like to keep on top of things and I do research everything to the max and this has served us well in everything we've done. I do know that bad news sells, but to not read the news does not mean that it does not exist. It does -- that is a FACT! Hence all the questions. We'd like to know where our tax euros are going to go and we do want to live in a relatively safe environment. Crime happens all over the world, but we'd rather be informed than 'bury our heads in the sand.' 

Not sure where 'Pesky Wesky' gets that I may not know the difference between refugees and immigrants. I do!! Lived in a lot of countries around the world and can pick out nationalities, languages etc. without fail. We were at a gas station, when the refugees who were Syrian came over asking people for a ride. They managed to get one from a truck driver. The rest were still waiting by the roadside waiting for another ride I'm guessing.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

expatlora1 said:


> So looks like we've got a bit of a debate going on. We like to keep on top of things and I do research everything to the max and this has served us well in everything we've done. I do know that bad news sells, but to not read the news does not mean that it does not exist. It does -- that is a FACT! Hence all the questions. We'd like to know where our tax euros are going to go and we do want to live in a relatively safe environment. Crime happens all over the world, but we'd rather be informed than 'bury our heads in the sand.'
> 
> Not sure where 'Pesky Wesky' gets that I may not know the difference between refugees and immigrants. I do!! Lived in a lot of countries around the world and can pick out nationalities, languages etc. without fail. We were at a gas station, when the refugees who were Syrian came over asking people for a ride. They managed to get one from a truck driver. The rest were still waiting by the roadside waiting for another ride I'm guessing.


Somewhere back in this thread it was posted that Spain has only agreed to accept something like 15,000 refugees from Syria

Such a low number isn't likely to have any impact on the general populaton, nor on how much tax we pay.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Personally, I think people (on the whole) are still confusing immigrants and refugees.

I have seen ZERO refugees around here but many, many immigrants.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

expatlora1 said:


> So looks like we've got a bit of a debate going on. We like to keep on top of things and I do research everything to the max and this has served us well in everything we've done. I do know that bad news sells, but to not read the news does not mean that it does not exist. It does -- that is a FACT! Hence all the questions. We'd like to know where our tax euros are going to go and we do want to live in a relatively safe environment. Crime happens all over the world, but we'd rather be informed than 'bury our heads in the sand.'
> 
> Not sure where 'Pesky Wesky' gets that I may not know the difference between refugees and immigrants. I do!! Lived in a lot of countries around the world and can pick out nationalities, languages etc. without fail. We were at a gas station, when the refugees who were Syrian came over asking people for a ride. They managed to get one from a truck driver. The rest were still waiting by the roadside waiting for another ride I'm guessing.


I'm glad to hear you know the difference beween refugees and immigrants . (That of course would imply that you recognise yourself as being an immigrant)
To be honest I suppose what really surprised me about your post was how you seem to equate crime with refugees. You also say that you don't want to be looking over your shoulders and the only people that you name as being possibly problematic are the refugees. 
Of course there are refugees that commit crimes. Of course there are immigrants that commit crimes (including British nationals)and of course there are Spanish people who are criminals. In Spain more Spaniards commit crimes than any other nationality, as you will find in this document



> Instituto Nacional de Estadístic
> a
> 2
> Analizando la distribución porcentual de las personas condenadas por grupos de edad se
> ...


http://www.ine.es/prensa/np863.pdf

It's a very good idea to research your move. It's a good idea to be concerned about crime, but restricting the information gained doesn't give a full picture.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

I'm not sure if the OP wants to know about CRIME or REFUGEES.
If crime is a concern the OP can look at these recent threads.
Expat Forum For People Moving Overseas And Living Abroad - Search Results


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

It's now emerging that police forces in some European countries -Austria, Sweden spring to mind - have apparently been concealing the number of crimes committed by immigrants/refugees/asylum seekers to avoid an anti-immigrant backlash. The Cologne police and media withheld publicising what happened on NYE for over three days.
Imo this serves to stir up MORE concern, not less.
But those countries have operated a virtually open door policy for refugees/migrants, almost 80% of whom are young, single males.
Spain, sensibly, like the UK and now Canada, has been more sensibly selective, taking in those in most need, families, the sick and elderly.
And I am happy for my tax euros to support these needy people. I'd rather it was spent on useful, humanitarian purposes than on the Catholic Church, the Royal Family or tanks and guns.


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## fergie (Oct 4, 2010)

This news was also kept reasonably quiet.
UK School Trip Ends in Terror as Calais Migrants Smash Coach Window - Breitbart
This only happened yesterday, the children must have been terrified.


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## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I'm glad to hear you know the difference beween refugees and immigrants . (That of course would imply that you recognise yourself as being an immigrant)
> To be honest I suppose what really surprised me about your post was how you seem to equate crime with refugees. You also say that you don't want to be looking over your shoulders and the only people that you name as being possibly problematic are the refugees.
> Of course there are refugees that commit crimes. Of course there are immigrants that commit crimes (including British nationals)and of course there are Spanish people who are criminals. In Spain more Spaniards commit crimes than any other nationality, as you will find in this document
> 
> ...


Condenados según nacionalidad 
La mayor parte de los condenados en 2013 fueron de nacionalidad española (75,0% frente 
al 74,2% del año anterior). 
Entre los extranjeros, los de países de América representaron el mayor porcentaje de 
condenados (35,2% del total). 
La tasa de condenados por cada 1000 habitantes de 18 y más años fue casi tres veces 
superior en los condenados de nacionalidad extranjera (13,7) que en los de nacionalidad 
española (4,8). 
Obviously, the largest per cent of people who have received a prison sentence are Spanish in Spain because there are more Spaniards than foreigners in Spain. But according to this, there is a higher percentage per population of foreigners who have been sentenced than of Spaniards: 13,7% against 4,8% although I would imagine they are mostly immigrants and not refugees.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

anles said:


> Condenados según nacionalidad
> La mayor parte de los condenados en 2013 fueron de nacionalidad española (75,0% frente
> al 74,2% del año anterior).
> Entre los extranjeros, los de países de América representaron el mayor porcentaje de
> ...


My point was that obviously if you are in Spain more Spaniards are going to be sentenced than foreigners. Therefore if you're worried about crime then you need to keep that in mind.
However, if a person is worried about refugees, firstly how do you know who is a refugee and who is an immigrant and who is merely a foreigner? Secondly why are refugees viewed as more problematic than other groups such as drug addicts, unemployed young people, fascists, British criminals on the Costas?
Just wondering


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> My point was that obviously if you are in Spain more Spaniards are going to be sentenced than foreigners. Therefore if you're worried about crime then you need to keep that in mind.
> However, if a person is worried about refugees, firstly how do you know who is a refugee and who is an immigrant and who is merely a foreigner? Secondly why are refugees viewed as more problematic than other groups such as drug addicts, unemployed young people, fascists, British criminals on the Costas?
> Just wondering


or even ''crime tourists#''


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Why when I am on this thread does my keyboard suddenly switch to US instead of UK? It never used to.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

The Spanish I know always blame the East Europeans for crime, especially the Roma. I doubt if we will get any accurate figures from any EU country. Eg Germany is not going to admit crime committed by Migrants is rising although most Germans say it is.


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## fergie (Oct 4, 2010)

I found this article quite interesting, this is how some people I.e. mayor in a Bavarian town are thinking.
Migrant crisis: Bavaria mayor sends refugees to Merkel - BBC News
I wonder what Mrs Merkel actually thinks of a bus load of Syrians arriving at her office, I would have loved to be a fly on her wall, she made no plans for trying to integrate so many people, before being so generous, I wonder if she offered them coffee and bratwurst.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

fergie said:


> I found this article quite interesting, this is how some people I.e. mayor in a Bavarian town are thinking.
> Migrant crisis: Bavaria mayor sends refugees to Merkel - BBC News
> I wonder what Mrs Merkel actually thinks of a bus load of Syrians arriving at her office, I would have loved to be a fly on her wall, she made no plans for trying to integrate so many people, before being so generous, I wonder if she offered them coffee and bratwurst.


Germany is a wealthy country, it is also an ageing society like the UK and desperately needs immigrants to fill an estimated 600000 jobs that will be created in the next ten years, or so I read somewhere.
But it has already taken in over a million migrants, mainly (80%) young single men, without proper consideration as to the logistics such as accommodation, medical care, teaching German and so on.
More importantly, the German people were not consulted as to their feelings.
Countries like Canada, the UK and Spain, which took a more cautious approach to the migrant issue, were criticised by some for not accepting more immigrants, whether refugees or economic migrants, frankly hard to distinguish, if we are honest.
These countries have not so far reported serious disturbances involving incomers from radically different cultures.
It amuses me to hear some 'progressives' talking about 'the people' when they want to draw a distinction between them, 'the people', and the 'ruling classes' but then to ignore the wishes of 'the people' when as they usually do they run contrary to 'progressive' opinion, such as supporting controls on immigration or wanting the restoration of the death penalty, or tighter curbs on benefit claimants.
I can't see anything morally wrong or wrong in any way about wanting to prioritise the wellbeing of family, friends and people already resident in a country, regardless of their ethnicity, skin colour or any other perceivable difference, over that of strangers from a different culture. That doesn't mean that we don't offer help, of course not, it's a matter of priorities.
Supporting those closest to you, whether by family ties, friendship or culture, is surely normal human behaviour.


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## fergie (Oct 4, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Germany is a wealthy country, it is also an ageing society like the UK and desperately needs immigrants to fill an estimated 600000 jobs that will be created in the next ten years, or so I read somewhere.
> But it has already taken in over a million migrants, mainly (80%) young single men, without proper consideration as to the logistics such as accommodation, medical care, teaching German and so on.
> More importantly, the German people were not consulted as to their feelings.
> Countries like Canada, the UK and Spain, which took a more cautious approach to the migrant issue, were criticised by some for not accepting more immigrants, whether refugees or economic migrants, frankly hard to distinguish, if we are honest.
> ...


I have an elderly aunt, now in her mid 90's, who lived in a small, very pretty Bavarian town, about 20 yrs ago their town had an influx of Turkish migrants. My aunt then in her 70's was most upset, the Turkish families were not that tidy, left rubbish in the streets, their children playing football, and kicking the ball at Windows of the elderly indigenous residents, and the children also begged for money. My aunt is now in a rest home for the elderly, but I think she would have been horrified at the sheer numbers Mrs Merkel has let in the country, without any forward planning.
I still have relatives living in Germany, but the greatest feedback we get is from friends who temporary residents in Spain, with their main residences still in Germany. One of our friends says her and her husband do not feel safe walking out in the evening at 'home', many groups of mainly young men with nothing to do, except hang around, and intimidate.
My friends have also witnessed, when 'do gooders' were handing out food and water to the Syrians, they tipped away the water, threw the empty bottles and the food anywhere in the streets, and the jeering from the Syrians demanding homes of their own. Around the area of Munich station was a virtual no go area when the migrants started to arrive, locals did get pushed about and jostled by the new arrivals.
My friends and family from Germany were never consulted if they would mind such a great influx of people of a totally different culture.


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

We've been telling our two children to pack up, sell up and move to Canada/Aus/NZ... they are now thinking seriously about it. Europe will be a real mess within a decade as will the UK and I dread to think of what our grand children will see if they stay in the UK.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

bob_bob said:


> We've been telling our two children to pack up, sell up and move to Canada/Aus/NZ... they are now thinking seriously about it. Europe will be a real mess within a decade as will the UK and I dread to think of what our grand children will see if they stay in the UK.


Your children may find they will not be allowed to live permanently in those countries. I don't know about Australia or NZ but I do know about Canada as I have close family in Quebec and Ontario and owned property there. 
Canada is very selective. It has strict criteria for granting residency. Speaking French, having a job already or a skill in short supply, having relatives....there is a points system for applicants. Canada too is of course a nation of immigrants but like the U.S. the official policy is one of integration and assimilation not 'multi-culti' although of course different cultural/ethnic groups keep their own identity.
No country in the world has an open-door immigration policy, although it seems that's what some on the Left would like to see.

Incidentally, if all those people in the camp at Calais, mainly young men, are genuine refugees fleeing civil war why aren't they seeking asylum in France or the other EU countries they've crossed to get to the camps? These are 'safe' countries under the terms of the Dublin Agreement, aren't they?


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## Tellus (Nov 24, 2013)

fergie said:


> I found this article quite interesting, this is how some people I.e. mayor in a Bavarian town are thinking.
> Migrant crisis: Bavaria mayor sends refugees to Merkel - BBC News
> I wonder what Mrs Merkel actually thinks of a bus load of Syrians arriving at her office, I would have loved to be a fly on her wall, she made no plans for trying to integrate so many people, before being so generous, I wonder if she offered them coffee and bratwurst.


That was only an embarrassment of a district chief - because of vanities between Merkel and Seehofer (Bavarian PM).
He sent them to Berlin by bus but himself has used a staff car...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Tellus said:


> That was only an embarrassment of a district chief - because of vanities between Merkel and Seehofer (Bavarian PM).


Interesting. Do you have a source for that? I think a great many 'District Chiefs' have differences with Mutti Merkel. Not surprising when the burden of housing and feeding the new arrivals falls on them and not directly on the Federal Government.
I note also (mit Schrecklichkeit) that AfD has doubled its membership in the past couple of months.
I am a great admirer of Frau Merkel but it seems she has made an uncharacteristic error of judgment in this case.


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## Tellus (Nov 24, 2013)

fergie said:


> I have an elderly aunt, now in her mid 90's, who lived in a small, very pretty Bavarian town, about 20 yrs ago their town had an influx of Turkish migrants. My aunt then in her 70's was most upset, the Turkish families were not that tidy, left rubbish in the streets, their children playing football, and kicking the ball at Windows of the elderly indigenous residents, and the children also begged for money. My aunt is now in a rest home for the elderly, but I think she would have been horrified at the sheer numbers Mrs Merkel has let in the country, without any forward planning.
> I still have relatives living in Germany, but the greatest feedback we get is from friends who temporary residents in Spain, with their main residences still in Germany. One of our friends says her and her husband do not feel safe walking out in the evening at 'home', many groups of mainly young men with nothing to do, except hang around, and intimidate.
> My friends have also witnessed, when 'do gooders' were handing out food and water to the Syrians, they tipped away the water, threw the empty bottles and the food anywhere in the streets, and the jeering from the Syrians demanding homes of their own. Around the area of Munich station was a virtual no go area when the migrants started to arrive, locals did get pushed about and jostled by the new arrivals.
> My friends and family from Germany were never consulted if they would mind such a great influx of people of a totally different culture.


perhaps you can ask your auntie about the time after 1945... how was the feeling for refugees from Sudetenland, Schlesien, Pommern etc...were they welcomed by "Germans" ??? Noooo!!!!


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Tellus said:


> perhaps you can ask your auntie about the time after 1945... how was the feeling for refugees from Sudetenland, Schlesien, Pommern etc...were they welcomed by "Germans" ??? Noooo!!!!


or earlier, their reaction to refugees from the Russian pogroms?


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## Tellus (Nov 24, 2013)

mrypg9 said:


> Interesting. Do you have a source for that? I think a great many 'District Chiefs' have differences with Mutti Merkel. Not surprising when the burden of housing and feeding the new arrivals falls on them and not directly on the Federal Government.
> I note also (mit Schrecklichkeit) that AfD has doubled its membership in the past couple of months.
> I am a great admirer of Frau Merkel but it seems she has made an uncharacteristic error of judgment in this case.


Seehofer has degraded Merkel to a garden gnome within party convention by his speech, she stood beside him like silly girl..thatś like PITA
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deuts...syrer-muessen-offenbar-zurueck-a-1072133.html


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> or earlier, their reaction to refugees from the Russian pogroms?


If you read on the topic you'll find that Polish and German Jews lived quite happily under German occupation in the eastern campaigns of 1914 - 1918. It's often forgotten that German troops occupied large parts of Poland and Russia in the First World War and that the parts they occupied had a large Jewish population. There are instances of German troops actually preventing pogroms and anti-Semitic outrages.
The majority of those fleeing Tsarist pogroms went West to the U.S. or, fewer, to Great Britain.

I'm not sure what point is being made in comparing the reception given in 1945 to those expellees from Poland and Czechoslovakia, most of whom went to DP camps, to migrants arriving in Germany in 2016.
Is the point to show that Germans are unwelcoming to refugees/migrants? If so, Germans are no different to the rest of the human race. It is after all Governments and not the people who invite people to their countries.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Tellus said:


> Seehofer has degraded Merkel to a garden gnome within party convention by his speech, she stood beside him like silly girl..thatś like PITA
> Bundeskanzleramt: Flüchtlinge fühlen sich benutzt - SPIEGEL ONLINE


Which doesn't prove that he sent those people there because of that (ich kann deutsch lesen).
It just shows that there is ill-feeling between them, as there is between Merkel and many of her CDU/CSU colleagues.

P.S. The Landrat iin question is Peter Dreier from Landshut not Seehofer?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> If you read on the topic you'll find that Polish and German Jews lived quite happily under German occupation in the eastern campaigns of 1914 - 1918. It's often forgotten that German troops occupied large parts of Poland and Russia in the First World War and that the parts they occupied had a large Jewish population. There are instances of German troops actually preventing pogroms and anti-Semitic outrages.
> The majority of those fleeing Tsarist pogroms went West to the U.S. or, fewer, to Great Britain..


But what about the non-Jewish Germans??



mrypg9 said:


> I'm not sure what point is being made in comparing the reception given in 1945 to those expellees from Poland and Czechoslovakia, most of whom went to DP camps, to migrants arriving in Germany in 2016.
> Is the point to show that Germans are unwelcoming to refugees/migrants? If so, Germans are no different to the rest of the human race. It is after all Governments and not the people who invite people to their countries.


What about the attitudes of Spanish towards Northern Europeans, e.g. Brits?


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## Tellus (Nov 24, 2013)

Got the feeling that many German citizens, descendants of refugees after 1945, have forgotten their roots.
I am son of refugees, born in peace and freedom, got no problems with refugees today.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Tellus said:


> Got the feeling that many German citizens, descendants of refugees after 1945, have forgotten their roots.
> I am son of refugees, born in peace and freedom, got no problems with refugees today.


You live in Portugal, though....and those refugees in 1945 -6 were Volksdeutsche, spoke German, were culturally no different to those living within the borders of the Reich.
I don't know how we could distinguish between the feelings towards today's immigrants who are themselves descendants of immigrants/expellees and those that aren't. So it's not really helpful to make comments about that. For all we know, such people may remember their roots and be welcoming towards today's newcomers.

You were indeed born in peace and freedom, both gained at the expense of horrendous bloodshed, blood of Germans, soldiers and citizens and those of all nations who fought, amongst them my father, himself of immigrant descent too.
No-one wants to see more bloodshed and violence whether between or within nations. Neither does any sane person want to see the stirring up of needless racial or cultural animosity.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> But what about the non-Jewish Germans??
> 
> 
> 
> What about the attitudes of Spanish towards Northern Europeans, e.g. Brits?


I don't understand, Baldy.  What do you mean, the non-Jewish Germans? I thought we were discussing pogroms, directed at Eastern Jews ( Ukrainian and Russian mainly). The point I made was two=fold: one, that the majority of German troops occupying the 'pogrom lands' in the years shortly following on the worst pogroms, displayed no or very little anti-Semitism and in fact by their presence as an occupying force actually protected the Jewish population from persecution and secondly that most in fact the huge majority of Jews fleeing Tsarist pogroms didn't go to Germany so it's irrelevant whether the Germans welcomed them or not.

As for the attitude of Spaniards towards Brits in Spain: as long as we behave ourselves and spend money I don't think they give a toss. It's their fellow Brits who are more censorious of their compatriots behaviour, it would seem, considering comments about 'Britzones', 'those who won't 'integrate', 'the tattooed and unsightly' and so on.


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

mrypg9 said:


> Your children may find they will not be allowed to live permanently in those countries. I don't know about Australia or NZ but I do know about Canada as I have close family in Quebec and Ontario and owned property there.
> Canada is very selective. It has strict criteria for granting residency. Speaking French, having a job already or a skill in short supply, having relatives....there is a points system for applicants. Canada too is of course a nation of immigrants but like the U.S. the official policy is one of integration and assimilation not 'multi-culti' although of course different cultural/ethnic groups keep their own identity.
> No country in the world has an open-door immigration policy, although it seems that's what some on the Left would like to see.
> 
> Incidentally, if all those people in the camp at Calais, mainly young men, are genuine refugees fleeing civil war why aren't they seeking asylum in France or the other EU countries they've crossed to get to the camps? These are 'safe' countries under the terms of the Dublin Agreement, aren't they?


They'd have no problem, son is a graduate network engineer/planner and daughter is a graduate mental health charge nurse.


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## Justina (Jan 25, 2013)

*Emigrating*



bob_bob said:


> They'd have no problem, son is a graduate network engineer/planner and daughter is a graduate mental health charge nurse.


Don't count on it bob bob. All these countries have a very tight visa system and only take on what they require at the moment. Check out the expat forum here for visas to Aussie etc., awash with people wondering at which point they are on the scale.


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## fergie (Oct 4, 2010)

Tellus said:


> perhaps you can ask your auntie about the time after 1945... how was the feeling for refugees from Sudetenland, Schlesien, Pommern etc...were they welcomed by "Germans" ??? Noooo!!!!


I was born in Luneburg, German mum British father-after ww2. All of my late mums brothers and sisters were born in Luneburg.
My maternal grandmother came from Demmin in Pommern, and grandfather from Weimar, my grandmothers parents were mixed German/Polish Jewish and Lutheran, they married in 1913 and went to live in Luneburg, and they had many of their assets in Demmin and Hamburg I.e. Cigar manufacturing business confiscated after WW1. Part of grandmothers family fled to America.
My mum and her brothers were brought up in the Lutheran faith, although they were never forced to follow it, and none of them did!
During WW2, my grandmother who was then a widow, with younger children at home looked after refugees, they hid a young mother and child in their cellar, this young mother always carried a closed suite case with her, this suite case I was told, contained the burned and shriveled remains of her husband, their home had been hit by an incendiary bomb, and her husband perished in it, she was in shock of course!
I was also told stories, about Demmin towards the end of the war, my grandparents still had friends there, of the rapes of any women, the nailing of tongues to the table, by soviet troops, and mass suicides by terrified people!
I do know very well what it is like to be German, I was born one! And I am proud of my German heritage, I also know what it is like to be hated. When I was taken to live in Uk at the age of five, I was hated for being a bi lingual Caucasian blond child, by my peers at school.
Where I was brought up in UK, in the 1950-1960's was a fairly multi cultural society, with the main mix of Catholics and Protestants, many Jews, Ukraine and Polish people, and the odd Sikh, it was actually really nice to mix with different people of so many faiths, and a pleasure to go into the speciality delicatessen shops, having such a mix of slightly different culture helped these people integrate more easily, but that was a long time ago, and none of them ever forced their religion on others, now Europe has gone into a crazy downward spiral.
It is one thing having a European culture,forget the religious bit!, and another thing having a middle eastern culture, it is almost like oil and water, very difficult to mix, or understand their values, some damn right barbaric.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

bob_bob said:


> They'd have no problem, son is a graduate network engineer/planner and daughter is a graduate mental health charge nurse.


Means little if those skills are already available on the local Canadian market. I wasa graduate MFL teacher, with degrees from two good universities and PGCE,fluent in French, with family in Canada and had property there yet I came fairly low on the points scale. Ex- husband thought of emigrating when we were married, graduate electronics engineer, at that time worked in R and D for top US firm, no French...low on points. 
It's different if you have a job offer, though. My son was offered a job in IT in Alberta, through family contacts. He declined the offer.
Canada looks for skills and qualifications that are in short supply.


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

I've only lost one nurse to Canada, but lost several to the USA and lots to Aus/NZ. A quick google shows that there are a lot of vacancies available. One nurse applied online for a post in NZ, received an email arranging for a telephone interview and he was working our there in no time. 

Two friends of my son qualified and moved to Aus; I have absolutely no doubt my children would very easily find work overseas...they have needed skills

I'd like them to go to NZ as the wife and I could easily get a retirement visa.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

fergie said:


> It is one thing having a European culture,forget the religious bit!, and another thing having a middle eastern culture, it is almost like oil and water, very difficult to mix, or understand their values, some damn right barbaric.


& it will never work.


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## Justina (Jan 25, 2013)

*Nurses*



bob_bob said:


> I've only lost one nurse to Canada, but lost several to the USA and lots to Aus/NZ. A quick google shows that there are a lot of vacancies available. One nurse applied online for a post in NZ, received an email arranging for a telephone interview and he was working our there in no time.
> I don't understand if you have a family of nurses or just people you know. There was a problem some years ago with uk trained nurses where with the US they had to undergo some courses before they would be accepted.
> By the way, Aussie is very fussy about elderly family members arriving without the dosh for private medical care. So, I suggest you check out NZ cos their criteria doesn't vary that much from Aussie.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

:focus:

Here's an interesting video report about Syrian and other asylum-seekers who find a safer way to cross the Mediterranean. Their applications are processed in Melilla (a Spanish enclave on the Moroccan coast) and around 200 a week arrive on the ferry to Málaga, from where they can move on to their chosen destinations.

Syrian refugees heading to Europe via the Spanish enclave in Morocco - BBC News


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> :focus:
> 
> Here's an interesting video report about Syrian and other asylum-seekers who find a safer way to cross the Mediterranean. Their applications are processed in Melilla (a Spanish enclave on the Moroccan coast) and around 200 a week arrive on the ferry to Málaga, from where they can move on to their chosen destinations.
> 
> Syrian refugees heading to Europe via the Spanish enclave in Morocco - BBC News


But if they are genuine refugees, intending at some point however distant to return to their country, why are they 'moving on to chosen destinations' if by that is meant countries outside Spain?
Spain is surely a 'safe country' under the terms of the Dublin Agreement so why not settle in Spain?
And why are they described as 'asylum seekers' and not 'refugees'? They are surely not asylum seekers as the term is normally understood.
Most of these North Africans and Syrians who manage to reach Europe have had the means to pay people smugglers. The people-smuggling trade should be investigated more closely as it seems to be very lucrative, linked to various Mafia organisations. It is as we know highly dangerous for those who take the risk as well as highly lucrative for the smuggling gangs.
As it seems that the vast majority of migrants are young men what I wonder is the fate of those left behind, the old, the sick, those who can't afford the £ thousands to pay the criminal gangs. There are few old people's homes or social services in Syria or Iraq. Who looks after the elderly parents?
We are focusing only on the end result of the smuggling operation, the arrivals, and not on the mechanics of it, those behind it or those left behind.
The more I think about the whole issue the more humane, practical and effective are the efforts of the UK Government which has spent more on funding the camps and bringing vulnerable people and families to the UK than any other European Government has spent on dealing with the problem.
Maybe that's why the UK has avoided the problems that are now surfacing in Germany, Austria, Sweden, Finland, Denmark and other European countries where permissive cultures clash with the views on women and gay people held by many Muslims.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

mrypg9 said:


> But if they are genuine refugees, intending at some point however distant to return to their country, why are they 'moving on to chosen destinations' if by that is meant countries outside Spain?
> Spain is surely a 'safe country' under the terms of the Dublin Agreement so why not settle in Spain?
> And why are they described as 'asylum seekers' and not 'refugees'? They are surely not asylum seekers as the term is normally understood.
> Most of these North Africans and Syrians who manage to reach Europe have had the means to pay people smugglers. *The people-smuggling trade should be investigated more closely as it seems to be very lucrative*, linked to various Mafia organisations. It is as we know highly dangerous for those who take the risk as well as highly lucrative for the smuggling gangs.
> ...



This is the biggest problem IMO and no one ever questions the amount of money these people are charging and making, nor does anyone ever question the lies, propaganda they are telling their clients - *THIS IS THE BIGGEST PROBLEM* and no one questions it - maybe angela murkel is on their payroll


Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> This is the biggest problem IMO and no one ever questions the amount of money these people are charging and making, nor does anyone ever question the lies, propaganda they are telling their clients - *THIS IS THE BIGGEST PROBLEM* and no one questions it - maybe angela murkel is on their payroll
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


I'm guessing your last comment is a joke

But, seriously, President Zeman of the Czech Republic has said over the weekend that in his opinion the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood is bankrolling the people smuggling...
Zeman is a twerp and an embarrassment to most sensible Czech people. But it's interesting...under Communism/socialism, Czechoslovakia took in large numbers of Vietnamese migrants. On the whole they have settled well, many own businesses, corner stores being most popular. I would say they live side by side with Czechs rather than being 'integrated'.
There are also many Ukrainians in the CR, a real underclass, almost as low in Czech estimation as the Roma. They are viewed as useful for cheap off-the-cards labour and many women work as prostitutes.
But at the bottom of the pile are the Roma.
In my experience many Czechs are quite racist, casually so where Roma are concerned. You hear dreadful things from highly educated people. But then Roma are in many ways not helping their own situation. It's complicated.
The Czech Republic has agreed, reluctantly, to accept Syrian and Iraqi refugees as long as they identify as Christian which is a joke as Czechs are the most secular people in Europe.


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

Justina said:


> bob_bob said:
> 
> 
> > I've only lost one nurse to Canada, but lost several to the USA and lots to Aus/NZ. A quick google shows that there are a lot of vacancies available. One nurse applied online for a post in NZ, received an email arranging for a telephone interview and he was working our there in no time.
> ...


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