# Roof Repair Issues



## Milwallsteve (Jul 5, 2020)

Hello all,

I haven't been on here for a while so I hope all are staying safe and well.

We completed on our Tala Riviera apartment last December 3 so my wife got her way in the end as she took an immediate liking to Tala from previous YouTube buying research!! Tala area is far nicer the Peyia to be fair though, we both love it we can't wait to get back ASAP restrictions permitting. Esme Palas of Michaal Kyprianou lawyers through A Place in the Sun from start to finish, from instructing her to completion was amazing all throughout and I really can't recommend her enough.

We inherited a roof repair issue though that was highlighted in the structural survey by the surveyor as a minor issue, a water ingress underneath some roof tiles on the external north edge of the roof and have since recently had it repaired by the property management company PFA, I'll claim the costs back through the communal insurance. I've learnt from it that we should've insisted on the previous owner getting it repaired before we completed but it was only a minor issue, I was liaising with the Sold on Cyprus agents who informed the owner and he was in contact with PFA to get the issue looked at, and then before we knew it we completed far sooner than we expected. Esme intervened with land registry to get us fast tracked despite them going into a much reduced working capacity then last November for emergencies only, for which I naturally didn't think we would qualify as that. We were then still booked to fly out in the first week of this month but are now rescheduled for April hoping things settle down here in the UK and Cyprus.

I'd like to know if this is a common place issue in Cyprus with roof repair issues?

I've had replies from our SOC agent and Esme for their own personal experiences, seems it is from what they've both told me. 

Any further information would be gratefully received and very helpful, so thanks in advance.


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## mikehump3 (Aug 28, 2012)

Ah. Now there is a thing. You are prpbably the subject of a law known as the Immovable Property Act 1993, or to be precise The Immovable Prperty Law of 1993 (Tenure,Registration and Valuation) (Amendment). Copies are available online from some sites. However, the document can be a little daunting. Please note, I am not a lawyer and what I am about to say is based on my knowledge gained during 7 years as a Committee member, 6 of which I was Chairman of a 38 Flat and 5 Shop unit block of flats.

Basically, a roof is common property and costs are shared. Where the development is separated into various blocks of units, residents of one unit may ask the Committee to view their common liability to be limited to the relevant units. However, this must be done by both election and approval. The next point is that I would consider it highly likely that in a community sharing common areas there will be some who do not meet their Common Expenses or decline to pay for any repairs or renovations. Whilst the law insists that they do for various reasons the law is currently difficult to execute.

Expenses for repairs of common property that you undertake without the permission of the Committee are not usually reimbursed. Sadly, because some owners do not honour their expenses, the Committee may be unable to meet the cost of legitimate repairs to common property. Extremely galling when it is your property that is suffering.

Owners and Committee members have legally binding obligations. It is my sad experience that if an owner fails to meet their legal financial obligation it becomes difficult, often impossible, for the Committee to meet theirs.

Sincere Regards

Mike


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## nhowarth (Dec 6, 2017)

You can get an English translation of The Immovable Property (Tenure,Registration and Valuation) (Amendment) Law of 1993 from (moderated). Providing everyone coughs up it works fine, but as Mike has pointed out the law is 'difficult to execute' (which is as much of an understatement as when Noah said 'it looks like we're in for a drop of rain'.)

Even some Management Committees fail to understand that they are required to insure the whole of the Jointly-Owned Building (i.e. everything on the plot) as required by law. Some just insure the Jointly-Owned Property and advise the owners that they have to insure their properties independently.

A member of a Management Committee sent me 3 quotes from different insurance companies a few days ago. Only one complied with the law.

If the building's insured correctly, all the owners need to insure is their contents.

As an added 'bonus' if the complex has a swimming pool the law classes it as a public pool, which means it has to have annual inspections and operating licence, toilets, changing rooms, foot-baths, lifeguard, etc., etc.

When owners refuse to pay towards the insurance, maintenance, repair, management of the complex, the whole thing falls apart. It has a domino affect 'if they aren't paying, why should I?'

It's impossible to get the money out of the defaulters - all that will happen (assuming legal action against them is successful) is that a claim will be lodged against the defaulting owner's property and the money owed will only be recovered when the property's sold/transferred. You may be lucky and get a judgement where the debtor is ordered to pay so much/month towards the debt, but if they fail to pay there's little you can do about it but go back to court.

Given the deplorable state of the laws, which are about as much use as a third eyebrow, I wouldn't advise anyone to buy an apartment or a property in a complex. For the same money they could probably pick up a small townhouse and avoid the potential problems.

I expect Mike that you threw in the towel?

Cheers,


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## mikehump3 (Aug 28, 2012)

Nigel's comments area ccurate in all detail except his last. I didn't quite throw in the towel but I was most relieved to move to a bigger property where I no longer had to chase Community debtors. I do hope that Milwallsteve understands our comments although it might be too late for him to act appropriately. If you feel that a property located in a communal project really is where you want to live, include an enquiry about debt incurred through poor payers. It should be part of your solicitors or your own Due Diligence.

Sincere Regards

Mike


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## nhowarth (Dec 6, 2017)

Hi Mike

Good to hear you managed to move and no longer have to chase debtors.

The 'best' (worse) case I have come across is a communal building comprising three blocks of apartments and a hotel! As the apartments do not have a swimming pool the owner of the hotel kindly allows the apartment owners to use the hotel pool.

The last I heard about a year ago was that the apartment owners were trying to take the hotel out of the commonly-owned building. It was proving 'difficult' as they needed the agreement of at least 75% of the ownership of the building.

The problem with many (most) lawyers here is that they only do the bare minimum due diligence. Unless you specifically instruct them to check if there are poor payers, they will not check.

Regards,


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## Milwallsteve (Jul 5, 2020)

mikehump3 said:


> Ah. Now there is a thing. You are prpbably the subject of a law known as the Immovable Property Act 1993, or to be precise The Immovable Prperty Law of 1993 (Tenure,Registration and Valuation) (Amendment). Copies are available online from some sites. However, the document can be a little daunting. Please note, I am not a lawyer and what I am about to say is based on my knowledge gained during 7 years as a Committee member, 6 of which I was Chairman of a 38 Flat and 5 Shop unit block of flats.
> 
> Basically, a roof is common property and costs are shared. Where the development is separated into various blocks of units, residents of one unit may ask the Committee to view their common liability to be limited to the relevant units. However, this must be done by both election and approval. The next point is that I would consider it highly likely that in a community sharing common areas there will be some who do not meet their Common Expenses or decline to pay for any repairs or renovations. Whilst the law insists that they do for various reasons the law is currently difficult to execute.
> 
> ...


Afternoon Mike,

Thanks for that as you're clearly speaking with a great deal and vast amount of experience, so it's appreciated. 

Our apartment roof repair was carried out last January so it's long since sorted now thankfully. Yes you're right as there's a number of apartment owners that are being chased by the Tala Riviera committee and PFA for non-payment of their communal fees, so time will tell if anything comes of that. Both the communal insurance and private insurance claims were rejected unsurprisingly on the grounds that it was an already existing condition, so I'm not surprised but you have to try. The surveyor who carried out the structural survey gave us the clarity that we were after for the likely actual root cause to the roof damage in the first place. 

We've both learnt from this and have put it down to experience moving forward.

I totally get that because committees then obviously have less revenue in the kitty, which makes perfect sense.

Thanks again Mike.

Regards,

Steve


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## Milwallsteve (Jul 5, 2020)

nhowarth said:


> You can get an English translation of The Immovable Property (Tenure,Registration and Valuation) (Amendment) Law of 1993 from (moderated). Providing everyone coughs up it works fine, but as Mike has pointed out the law is 'difficult to execute' (which is as much of an understatement as when Noah said 'it looks like we're in for a drop of rain'.)
> 
> Even some Management Committees fail to understand that they are required to insure the whole of the Jointly-Owned Building (i.e. everything on the plot) as required by law. Some just insure the Jointly-Owned Property and advise the owners that they have to insure their properties independently.
> 
> ...


Afternoon Nigel,

Thanks for that which is all noted.

Our private apartment insurance includes free contents insurance which more than covers the furniture included with the sale.

I get your domino comment effect.

Our plans have changed since our viewing trip last September and we're now planning to retire and move out to Cyprus in the future once I've taken early retirement from the rail industry, so a complex suits us for now in-terms of the communal work being carried out and we'll ideally be looking for a villa or townhouse once we've moved out permanently in the future.

Even looking now there's townhouses in Tala for the same price as what I paid for our apartment, so that's good to know moving forward. 

Regards,

Steve


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## Milwallsteve (Jul 5, 2020)

mikehump3 said:


> Nigel's comments area ccurate in all detail except his last. I didn't quite throw in the towel but I was most relieved to move to a bigger property where I no longer had to chase Community debtors. I do hope that Milwallsteve understands our comments although it might be too late for him to act appropriately. If you feel that a property located in a communal project really is where you want to live, include an enquiry about debt incurred through poor payers. It should be part of your solicitors or your own Due Diligence.
> 
> Sincere Regards
> 
> Mike


Yes I do thanks Mike as per my replies. To be honest, I carried out a hell of a lot of research which I've stated on this board in the past and was proud of that fact. Despite the non-payers, the Tala Riviera committee aren't carrying that much debt because I've had the financial results and cash flow overview for the years 2014-2020 sent to me, which I've kept.

Regards,

Steve


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## mikehump3 (Aug 28, 2012)

Hello Steve

I am delighted that Nigel and I have been able to supplement your knowledge and contribute positively with our comments. I wish you well in your future endeavours and I am sure that your experiences of Estate purchases in Cyprus will stand you in good stead. 

Tale Care

Sincere Regards

Mike


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## nhowarth (Dec 6, 2017)

Hello Mike - good to see you this morning. Until we met I didn't appreciate that you were mikehump3 :-(

One further thing I should add for Steve is that some of the money collected for communal fees cannot be set aside to non-scheduled work, emergencies, etc. In 2017 there were cases in Paphos and Famagusta management committees sued owners for non payment of communal fees.

The management committees lost the cases as there were more than sufficient funds in the pot to pay the annual costs.

As there is no provision in the Jointly-Owned Buildings Law for a sinking fund, the majority of the unit owners have to agree to it by passing a motion at a General Meeting of Owners as described in Part V of the law.

Assuming the majority of unit owners agree the motion to set up a sinking fund, they need to agree a motion setting out the total money to be collected during the forthcoming year.

Once the total money to be collected has been agreed, a further motion setting out each unit’s contribution to the fund has to be agreed. Although there is no requirement for each unit’s contribution to be assessed on the size of the unit as set out in the Standard Regulations contained in the Jointly-Owned Buildings Law, it will probably be more acceptable if the calculation is the same used for calculating communal fees.

Finally, the MC needs to set up a separate bank account for the sinking fund.

(Note that total money to be collected for the sinking fund and communal fees can be revised at any time at a General Meeting of Owners, including their Annual General Meeting.)

Regards,


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## Milwallsteve (Jul 5, 2020)

mikehump3 said:


> Hello Steve
> 
> I am delighted that Nigel and I have been able to supplement your knowledge and contribute positively with our comments. I wish you well in your future endeavours and I am sure that your experiences of Estate purchases in Cyprus will stand you in good stead.
> 
> ...


Morning Mike,

You both have thanks which is very much appreciated. I didn't go into this with my eyes closed because it's precious money to me as it's inheritance from my dad so I carried out an enormous amount of research and due diligence, and still am with our future plans having now changed to move out permanently in the future. I've used a lot of the previous experience gained in the UK from property transactions in the past which has also stood me in good stead along with the mountain of information I've received from my estate agent mate in England. 

You move on and learn from all of life's experiences because that's life.

Take care and stay safe.

Steve


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## Milwallsteve (Jul 5, 2020)

nhowarth said:


> Hello Mike - good to see you this morning. Until we met I didn't appreciate that you were mikehump3 :-(
> 
> One further thing I should add for Steve is that some of the money collected for communal fees cannot be set aside to non-scheduled work, emergencies, etc. In 2017 there were cases in Paphos and Famagusta management committees sued owners for non payment of communal fees.
> 
> ...


Morning Nigel,

Yes I'm aware of that thanks because non-scheduled work to paint the exteriors of all complex apartments has been in the pipeline for a 2/3 years finances dependant on non paying owners, but there's a contingency fund element in our communal fees. I keep all the communal fee statements and receipts for my records along with the minutes from all the committee meetings whether it's the AGM or the quarterly GM.

Tala Riviera committee have a sizeable chunk of money in the contingency fund from the last quarterly GM minutes.

Thanks again Nigel.

Take care and stay safe.

Steve


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