# Retiring to France and working



## Steve Cain

My wife and myself are very interested in retiring to France, we are both in receipt of our State and Occupational pensions.

Is it possible to retire there and do some form of self-employment? I have read that to retire there the French law requires a letter/statement saying the intention not to work/take employment. But what if I want to pursue my hobbies (woodworking and photography) and earn a small income to supplement my pension? I can't find any information on a case like this.

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks,

Steve


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## 255

@Steve Cain -- Your question: "Is it possible to retire there and do some form of self-employment?" Yes.

As you have correctly researched, the normal visa that "retirees" routinely apply for is a long stay visa _*without*_ work privileges. This visa is relatively straight forward and your pensions are regularly enough to qualify.

In order to to work and in your case self-employed work -- you'll need to apply for a visa with work privileges. There are two possibilities:

a. You can apply for a long stay visa with work privileges: Self employed person or liberal activity | France-Visas.gouv.fr .

b. Alternately, you can apply for one of the "passeport talent" visas. These have the option to last up to 4 years. Renew once and you're eligible to apply for a long stay residence permit or even naturalization. Someone on another tread recently completed this process. A link follows: International talents | France-Visas.gouv.fr .

Good luck! Cheers, 255


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## Crabtree

One thing to remember is that if you have just a pension income then you will make no contribution to your health cover in France (other than the top up).If you work then not only will you have to jump through hoops to get the Visa but also be subject to deductions from your profit as an AE which may mean it is hardly worth it.
As you have pensions the state pension is taxed in France and should be be paid free of tax in the UK likewise the occupational pension UNLESS it is a UK govt occupational pension eg police teachers etc.If the latter then you will actually be a little bit better off overall tax wise


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## ToulouseRob

You would probably need to register as a "micro-entrepreneur" (Le micro-entrepreneur, un régime unique et simplifié | entreprises.gouv.fr). I thought about doing roughly what you propose, when we moved here almost 10 years ago but was put off - mostly by the point made by Crabtree above but also by other paperwork to take into account once you start "working". The distinction between "retired" and "working" seems very black and white in France, unlike the many shades of grey you find in the UK.


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## Bevdeforges

One other possibility is to simply wait out the time period until you are offered a multi-year carte de séjour. (Not sure how long that is these days - but used to be anywhere from 3 to 5 years, I think.) Once you are eligible for a multi-year card, I think your ability to work is no longer an issue and you could very easily set up an AE to pursue a little pocket money on the side. At one point I know they used to grant AE status to those on a "visiteur" visa, but I'm not sure whether that is still valid info.


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## Chrissippus

ToulouseRob said:


> You would probably need to register as a "micro-entrepreneur" (Le micro-entrepreneur, un régime unique et simplifié | entreprises.gouv.fr). I thought about doing roughly what you propose, when we moved here almost 10 years ago but was put off - mostly by the point made by Crabtree above but also by other paperwork to take into account once you start "working". The distinction between "retired" and "working" seems very black and white in France, unlike the many shades of grey you find in the UK.


That's an interesting bit of information. My wife and I have been planning to move to France once I have obtained Irish citizenship by descent and a passport. We are both US citizens. I am fully retired, but she has a small internet business selling download files that are templates useful to artists and designers. I have been under the impression that while we could qualify for visas as US citizens, she would not be able to continue her online business. But since the Irish government is experiencing long (i.e. two years at least) delays in processing my application, could she qualify for a visa with the tax status of micro-entrepeneur? Her business income for 2022 will be about USD 16,000, but I have adequate retirement income to meet the French requirements for the two of us.


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## Bevdeforges

That's where some of the confusion lies. If you wait out the Irish backlog and come to France on your Irish citizenship, there is no problem. The "close family member" of an EU national gets all the same rights and privileges as the EU national in the family.

If you come over on your US citizenship, you'll be on "visiteur" visas. Based on the response to a query made several years ago, it is possible for someone on a "visiteur" visa to register an AE - but I suspect that may have either changed, or is intended only for really "incidental" income - like selling handicrafts at holiday fairs and such. I think $16,000 is considered more than just "incidental" income. 

And I know the terms are used interchangeably in the English language, but for an AE entreprise, taxes and social insurances are based on gross revenue, not net income after expenses are deducted. I realize that "digital" products like templates don't involve much in the way of expenses - but just FYI, there are no deductions for anything under the AE program. And even if you are "retired" you still have to pay full social charges on AE revenues.


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## 255

@Chrissippus -- Your question: "...could she qualify for a visa with the tax status of micro-entrepreneur?" The French will look at your income as a family, so if your total income meets the requirements and her income covers 50% of her SMIC, you should be fine. She should apply for one of the visas available with work privileges as outlined above. If she wants to totally qualify with her small business income, she's a little short. The French minimum wage (SMIC,) is routinely the minimum amount needed for visa purposes. https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F2300 Interprofessional minimum wage (Smic) | Insee

The SMIC is a pretty good gauge of financial requirements in most of France, but beware that the French give a lot of discretion to decision makers and if you're shooting for an expensive place like Paris, she might need 2X her SMIC.

Good luck! Cheer, 255


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## Chrissippus

255 said:


> @Chrissippus -- Your question: "...could she qualify for a visa with the tax status of micro-entrepreneur?" The French will look at your income as a family, so if your total income meets the requirements and her income covers 50% of her SMIC, you should be fine. She should apply for one of the visas available with work privileges as outlined above. If she wants to totally qualify with her small business income, she's a little short. The French minimum wage (SMIC,) is routinely the minimum amount needed for visa purposes. https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F2300 Interprofessional minimum wage (Smic) | Insee
> 
> The SMIC is a pretty good gauge of financial requirements in most of France, but beware that the French give a lot of discretion to decision makers and if you're shooting for an expensive place like Paris, she might need 2X her SMIC.
> 
> Good luck! Cheer, 255


Helpful information. So, even though the total income of our household would qualify us, if she applies for tax status as a micro-entrepeneur her gross income must be at least half of the SMIC? Seems a little odd, but she would apparently qualify based on her current level of earning. We are looking at cities like Toulouse, Bordeaux, and Lyons, but not Paris.


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## 255

@Chrissippus -- Your question: "So, even though the total income of our household would qualify us, if she applies for tax status as a micro-entrepreneur her gross income must be at least half of the SMIC?" Having the financial resources to qualify for the long stay visa -- check. Earning 50% of SMIC (for self-employment) to qualify for work privileges -- check. Basically, you need to tell a story that you can support yourselves and not be a drain on the French state.

Remember, she's applying for a visa that offers work privileges. She is not applying for any sort of tax status. France, like many countries taxes worldwide income for residents. Tax treaties often mitigate paying taxes on the same income to two different countries (but not always.)

You might check the local CCI for those cities -- they can offer free advice CCI de France federates the French Chambers of Commerce and Industry - Business France Cheers, 255


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## Bevdeforges

Your best bet for checking out your wife's status vis a vis the auto entrepreneur status is probably not the CCI, but rather the URSSAF site for auto entrepreneurs. L'essentiel du statut - Autoentrepreneur.urssaf.fr
I've linked to the page with FAQ, and the relevant one is the one about "Who can become an auto-entrepreneur?" Under that question they say that a foreigner can become an AE "under certain conditions" and a bit further along they explain that being an AE can be considered an annex to one of several "statuts" including that of "retraité."

But in any event, I think the URSSAF site is probably the most relevant source of information for your purposes.


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