# US UK France



## Peaceful Wanderer

Dual US / UK here.

I’ve just joined the forum and am hoping for some input.

I read many threads before joining and am impressed with members’ wide scope of knowledge (and humor).



Here’s the brief set of info:

I’d like to work a matter of months in the US each year, a number of months sufficient to maintain a US tax residency status.

I’d like to spend one month in the UK each year.

World events permitting, I’d like to start spending the remaining months in France each year, without work of any kind.



Question 1: Hoping to learn how many in-country days in the US are necessary to be US tax-resident. I’d not like to be cutting things too close, but not over-estimating either.

Question 2: Hoping to learn how many days I can reside in France each year, with or without applying for an advance visa.

My original idea included checking the possibility of 6.5 months in US, 1 month in UK, 4.5 months in France.


With thanks in advance for any replies,

PW


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## ARPC

Ummmm I don’t think you can do anything to avoid being a us “tax resident” if you’re a us citizen…other than renouncing. The US is crazy. If you’re a citizen, you must file taxes. By example, I haven’t worked in the US in three years, for a day, and I file taxes there. Otherwise your plan is easy. Your visa free stay covers you in France longer than you dream of being there, and your UK dreams are easy and irrelevant because you have citizenship there. Enjoy!


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## BackinFrance

UK and US nationals can visit France for 90 days in a rolling 180 day period without a visa.


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## Harry Moles

Peaceful Wanderer said:


> I’d like to work a matter of months in the US each year, a number of months sufficient to maintain a US tax residency status.


If only it were so simple. You'll have US tax residency until the day you die or renounce. It's like a very persistent STD.

If you are a dual US/UK citizen, here's the deal:

You can spend as long as you want in the US, unless you are trying to stay out long enough to claim FEIE to reduce your US income tax burden.

You can spend as long as you want in the UK, but you might want to look into what any potential UK tax implications might be if it's getting around the 6-month mark.

Since you don't have EU nationality, your stays in France (actually in the entire Schengen zone) will be limited to a rolling 90 days out of 180 days - the short version is, maximum three months twice per year so long as there's three months in between when you are out of Schengen. To stay any longer you would need to procure some sort of residence permit.

Lots of combinations and permutations within those rules.


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## Peaceful Wanderer

ARPC said:


> Ummmm I don’t think you can do anything to avoid being a us “tax resident” if you’re a us citizen…other than renouncing. The US is crazy. If you’re a citizen, you must file taxes. By example, I haven’t worked in the US in three years, for a day, and I file taxes there. Otherwise your plan is easy. Your visa free stay covers you in France longer than you dream of being there, and your UK dreams are easy and irrelevant because you have citizenship there. Enjoy!


I got lost in my own confusion. What I was trying to relate was that I don't wish to be additionally tax resident anywhere else (as I have been for some time). I'd like to just be filing one return each year, ha. Thanks much for your help and good wishes.


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## Peaceful Wanderer

Harry Moles said:


> If you are a dual US/UK citizen, here's the deal:
> 
> You can spend as long as you want in the US, unless you are trying to stay out long enough to claim FEIE to reduce your US income tax burden.
> 
> You can spend as long as you want in the UK, but you might want to look into what any potential UK tax implications might be if it's getting around the 6-month mark.
> 
> Since you don't have EU nationality, your stays in France (actually in the entire Schengen zone) will be limited to a rolling 90 days out of 180 days - the short version is, maximum three months twice per year so long as there's three months in between when you are out of Schengen. To stay any longer you would need to procure some sort of residence permit.
> 
> Lots of combinations and permutations within those rules.


Given I've shown confusion so blatantly above (another "ha"), this is just thinking aloud: what would happen if I spent the 180 days properly / legally (90 days out between) in the Schengen each year, 120 in the UK, and 65 in the US. Not asking for official advice of course, again just a possible what if, I'd still most likely be filing with US only? If so, I was even more confused than I originally stated, as that'd be perfection (at the moment, of course, ever a respectful eye on world events and impact on others). That'd be an interesting conversation with HMRC to ask them of, but seems fully worth it.


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## Harry Moles

You would have no French or Schengen tax obligations - if you are sailing in and out as a tourist. (If you were coming back to the same place 2 x 89 days every year and earning a pile working remotely and boasting about it, you might eventually pop up on some tax or immigration official's radar, however.)

I don't know anything about UK tax obligations.

The US will always claim its pound of flesh.


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## Peaceful Wanderer

Harry Moles said:


> You would have no French or Schengen tax obligations - if you are sailing in and out as a tourist. (If you were coming back to the same place 2 x 89 days every year and earning a pile working remotely and boasting about it, you might eventually pop up on some tax or immigration official's radar, however.)
> 
> I don't know anything about UK tax obligations.
> 
> The US will always claim its pound of flesh.


It was the UK tax obligations I was thinking about, as I won't be working at all when in France / the Schengen Area. 

I just took the UK Statutory Residence Test* and although the first two tests necessary would look good, the third necessary test looks as though it'd dash any UK component in the equation.

The news of 180 days in France is a pleasure to hear, though. Even if it came down to continuing to file taxes in both US and UK. 

For now, I think I'll give a good think about 185 US / 180 FR, too.

* Edited to change my initial finding.


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## Chrissippus

The term he wants is "tax domicile" and although a US citizen is liable for US income tax wherever he lives that does not mean that his tax domicile remains in a US state. If he is spending 6.5 months of the year in a US state his tax domicile will remain that state and he will remain liable for state income tax, if any, but the specifics depend on the tax domicile regulations of his state.


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## Harry Moles

Chrissippus said:


> The term he wants is "tax domicile" and although a US citizen is liable for US income tax wherever he lives that does not mean that his tax domicile remains in a US state. If he is spending 6.5 months of the year in a US state his tax domicile will remain that state and he will remain liable for state income tax, if any, but the specifics depend on the tax domicile regulations of his state.


Good point and one I'd forgotten. The OP should consider possible state tax obligations, and either shift residency to a no tax state or otherwise ensure that they are no longer resident in a high tax state.


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## rynd2it

Peaceful Wanderer said:


> It was the UK tax obligations I was thinking about, as I won't be working at all when in France / the Schengen Area.
> 
> I just took the UK Statutory Residence Test* and although the first two tests necessary would look good, the third necessary test looks as though it'd dash any UK component in the equation.
> 
> The news of 180 days in France is a pleasure to hear, though. Even if it came down to continuing to file taxes in both US and UK.
> 
> For now, I think I'll give a good think about 185 US / 180 FR, too.
> 
> * Edited to change my initial finding.


If you are not resident in the UK, you can have any income paid without tax deduction and you will not have to file a UK tax return. You have to file a form to tax exemption with HMRC for every income source paid in the UK.

As a US citizen you have to file a US tax return and declare your worldwide income so both your UK and US income could be declared on that return. 

If you are not resident in France, then you do not have to file a French return.

So, decide where you want to be resident and where you want to pay your taxes. This decision may be based on the exact tax liability you incur so I would be looking to find some professional advice id the amounts involve warrant it


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## EuroTrash

rynd2it said:


> If you are not resident in France, then you do not have to file a French return.


For the sake of clarity it might be better to say If you are not resident in France AND HAVE NO FRENCH SOURCED INCOME you do not file a French tax return.
In this case it doesn't look as if there will be any French sourced income.
But if you live abroad but have eg income from letting property in France, you are required to file an income declaration in France as a non resident. As a non resident you only declare French sourced income,,not worldwide income.as you would if you were resident.
I'm pretty sure it's very similar in the UK and non residents can be taxable by HMRC on UK income.


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## Peaceful Wanderer

Chrissippus said:


> The term he wants is "tax domicile" and although a US citizen is liable for US income tax wherever he lives that does not mean that his tax domicile remains in a US state. If he is spending 6.5 months of the year in a US state his tax domicile will remain that state and he will remain liable for state income tax, if any, but the specifics depend on the tax domicile regulations of his state.





rynd2it said:


> If you are not resident in the UK, you can have any income paid without tax deduction and you will not have to file a UK tax return. You have to file a form to tax exemption with HMRC for every income source paid in the UK.
> 
> As a US citizen you have to file a US tax return and declare your worldwide income so both your UK and US income could be declared on that return.
> 
> If you are not resident in France, then you do not have to file a French return.
> 
> So, decide where you want to be resident and where you want to pay your taxes. This decision may be based on the exact tax liability you incur so I would be looking to find some professional advice id the amounts involve warrant it





EuroTrash said:


> For the sake of clarity it might be better to say If you are not resident in France AND HAVE NO FRENCH SOURCED INCOME you do not file a French tax return.
> In this case it doesn't look as if there will be any French sourced income.
> But if you live abroad but have eg income from letting property in France, you are required to file an income declaration in France as a non resident. As a non resident you only declare French sourced income,,not worldwide income.as you would if you were resident.
> I'm pretty sure it's very similar in the UK and non residents can be taxable by HMRC on UK income.


Thanks each for taking the time to explain. Much appreciated.


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## eairicbloodaxe

EuroTrash said:


> For the sake of clarity it might be better to say If you are not resident in France AND HAVE NO FRENCH SOURCED INCOME you do not file a French tax return.
> In this case it doesn't look as if there will be any French sourced income.
> But if you live abroad but have eg income from letting property in France, you are required to file an income declaration in France as a non resident. As a non resident you only declare French sourced income,,not worldwide income.as you would if you were resident.
> I'm pretty sure it's very similar in the UK and non residents can be taxable by HMRC on UK income.


Yes. This is what we have done every year since buying our French house.

Kind regards


Ian


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