# Moving to Spain - a good idea?



## marion coward

My partner and I are both retirement age and professionally involved in the arts. He's a singer in a once popular group in Spain and I am a part time art teacher, mural painter and designer. We live in a very expensive part of London, but make sacrifices to do so as there are many other people similarly involved in the arts within our community. 

The problem is that my partner had a heart attack last year and is recuperating with difficulty. He wants me to sell our flat here in Hampstead and buy a villa in Spain, somewhere near Denia, as he has been told that it stays warm in the winter. He believes that on the proceeds of the sale of my flat, we should be able to afford a property with a pool in Spain + a studio flat in a cheaper part of London than where we presently live.

My reservations stem from a previous experience of living in Nice ( South of France) for 11 years, where I found it very difficult to meet kindred spirits ( most people involved in the arts scene were either charlatans or retired folk painting water colour views of the Promenade des Anglais ). We must find a milder climate for health reasons, but I'm anxious about giving up the rich cultural existence I have here in London, for something that is similiar to the situation in which I found myself in Nice.

My partner speaks fluent Spanish as he lived in Spain for many years, so this would make the re - location easier from a practical point of view. I have a basic understanding of Spanish, but intend to learn how to speak it before moving.

Can any of you offer advice about an area where we would fit in? Because of our professions, We are pretty unconventional , both in appearance and attitude and I am worried that we may choose the wrong area and not be able to settle


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## jojo

Its difficult to advice someone who you dont know. What I will say is, house prices in Spain have dropped significantly in the last couple of years and may continue to do so for some time??! Inheritance laws on properties here are complicated to say the least (not that you're planning for the worst to happen, but it may need looking into simply to be realistic) - so maybe look to renting both ends initially???? And also, why dont you come over and do some research or maybe simply take an extended holiday, see how you feel, how it suits you and see how things pan out??? That way, any niggles or problems wont be permanent 

Jo xxx


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## djfwells

marion coward said:


> My partner and I are both retirement age and professionally involved in the arts. He's a singer in a once popular group in Spain and I am a part time art teacher, mural painter and designer. We live in a very expensive part of London, but make sacrifices to do so as there are many other people similarly involved in the arts within our community.
> 
> The problem is that my partner had a heart attack last year and is recuperating with difficulty. He wants me to sell our flat here in Hampstead and buy a villa in Spain, somewhere near Denia, as he has been told that it stays warm in the winter. He believes that on the proceeds of the sale of my flat, we should be able to afford a property with a pool in Spain + a studio flat in a cheaper part of London than where we presently live.
> 
> My reservations stem from a previous experience of living in Nice ( South of France) for 11 years, where I found it very difficult to meet kindred spirits ( most people involved in the arts scene were either charlatans or retired folk painting water colour views of the Promenade des Anglais ). We must find a milder climate for health reasons, but I'm anxious about giving up the rich cultural existence I have here in London, for something that is similiar to the situation in which I found myself in Nice.
> 
> My partner speaks fluent Spanish as he lived in Spain for many years, so this would make the re - location easier from a practical point of view. I have a basic understanding of Spanish, but intend to learn how to speak it before moving.
> 
> Can any of you offer advice about an area where we would fit in? Because of our professions, We are pretty unconventional , both in appearance and attitude and I am worried that we may choose the wrong area and not be able to settle


I live about 15kms away from Denia and whilst I can vouch for it being a beautiful area of the coast with a cosmopolitan way of life, you have been misinformed if you belive that it remains 'warm in winter'. 
The town centre areas of Denia are quite low lying and can often flood during the rains (Particularly October and March) and frosts are not uncommon in Jan & Feb.
It is a good area to live and I know of a few communities where you would find like minded people, and if you decide that those things are not too important to you I would be happy to help you with any other questions you may have.


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## marion coward

jojo said:


> Its difficult to advice someone who you dont know. What I will say is, house prices in Spain have dropped significantly in the last couple of years and may continue to do so for some time??! Inheritance laws on properties here are complicated to say the least (not that you're planning for the worst to happen, but it may need looking into simply to be realistic) - so maybe look to renting both ends initially???? And also, why dont you come over and do some research or maybe simply take an extended holiday, see how you feel, how it suits you and see how things pan out??? That way, any niggles or problems wont be permanent
> 
> Jo xxx


Thanks Jo - That's what I've been thinking . Do you have any ideas about where we could find someone to do an exchange with for a short break?


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## marion coward

djfwells said:


> I live about 15kms away from Denia and whilst I can vouch for it being a beautiful area of the coast with a cosmopolitan way of life, you have been misinformed if you belive that it remains 'warm in winter'.
> The town centre areas of Denia are quite low lying and can often flood during the rains (Particularly October and March) and frosts are not uncommon in Jan & Feb.
> It is a good area to live and I know of a few communities where you would find like minded people, and if you decide that those things are not too important to you I would be happy to help you with any other questions you may have.


Thanks for putting me straight about the weather - the person who advised us is from Madrid and obviously doesn't know! Perhaps the best thing to do would be to visit for a winter break and see for ourselves.


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## marion coward

marion coward said:


> Thanks for putting me straight about the weather - the person who advised us is from Madrid and obviously doesn't know! Perhaps the best thing to do would be to visit for a winter break and see for ourselves.


As you know the area well, do you happen to know whether there is an Anglican Church that holds services in English within the area?


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## jojo

marion coward said:


> Thanks for putting me straight about the weather - the person who advised us is from Madrid and obviously doesn't know! Perhaps the best thing to do would be to visit for a winter break and see for ourselves.



Rumour has it that the Canary Islands have the best all year round climate???? That said, I think its milder on mainland Spain than the UK, maybe we've become acclimatised?? It is jolly cold at night and there are frosts and snow, but during the day when the sun shines its nearly always quite pleasant!!?? The problem is that Spanish houses dont generally have damp courses, central heating, carpets or insulation. So it takes a while and a small fortune to get them warm and cosy! I moan like mad, cos I really feel the cold and I hate the winters!!

Jo xxx


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## Joppa

marion coward said:


> As you know the area well, do you happen to know whether there is an Anglican Church that holds services in English within the area?


Yes, there are several, all served by the Costa Blanca Anglican Chaplaincy. At Denia, there is 11.45 am Sunday service at the Ermita in Las Rotas.
Denia


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## djfwells

marion coward said:


> As you know the area well, do you happen to know whether there is an Anglican Church that holds services in English within the area?


Yeah, I am aware of several such churches in the area - it sounds like Joppa is the person in the know on that score.
As for the weather - I have been to Madrid in January, and all I can really say on that score is that Denia is tropical in winter compared to Madrid.
 If you are looking to get a 'feel' for the community in the Denia / Marina Alta area you may wish to have a look at the website of the Free Newspaper that covers this area - RTN The Favourite Free Newspaper For The Costa Blanca, Costa Calida - they list things such as church groups and clubs & interests etc...


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## mrypg9

I lived in Highgate on the Hampstead border for twelve years and the CDS ain't Hampstead!!!!! No way Jose!!
Try buying a copy of The Guardian or The Independent around here.....
But you can have a very pleasant life here albeit with a totally different ambiance.
There are many clubs and organisations devoted to the arts - we enjoyed a very pleasant evening at the theatre last night - and you will always find like-minded people.
Unless you resemble a Martian your appearance will arouse no untoward comment.
But you will not find NW3 or NW6 on the Costas, I'm afraid.
Incidentally, I suffered a worse cultural shock when I moved from London to East Anglia......


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## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> I lived in Highgate on the Hampstead border for twelve years and the CDS ain't Hampstead!!!!! No way Jose!!
> Try buying a copy of The Guardian or The Independent around here.....
> But you can have a very pleasant life here albeit with a totally different ambiance.
> There are many clubs and organisations devoted to the arts - we enjoyed a very pleasant evening at the theatre last night - and you will always find like-minded people.
> Unless you resemble a Martian your appearance will arouse no untoward comment.
> But you will not find NW3 or NW6 on the Costas, I'm afraid.
> Incidentally, I suffered a worse cultural shock when


What a cliff hanger!!!
When....!!???


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## jojo

Pesky Wesky said:


> What a cliff hanger!!!
> When....!!???



I was thinking the same thing??? Did she press "submit" too quickly LOLOLOL

WHEN.........................?????

Jo xxx


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## gus-lopez

It's all there now ! Been edited.


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## mrypg9

Sorry....the sooner my son removes this f***** copy of Vista from my laptop the better....
But a good party game: finish this intriguing sentence.....

Or a good 'silly' thread????


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## marion coward

In terms of appearance we are decidedly alternative - lots of black clothing and heavy eye make up + clothes that would usually be associated with people about ten years younger. Partner is mixed race & has waist length dread locks, partially dyed blonde - think Camden Market. Our main interests are, me - the art scene =20th century + contemporary, reading fiction and otherwise (not potboilers - no Dan Brown in my house!), plants (container gardening), music= contemporary pop, opera, 20th century classical music, The Cinema, swimming, clothes- alternative fashion. Partner contemporary rock and pop music, sport = armchair passive variety, swimming, alternative fashion - clothes. We are both still practicing artists in our own fields. I suppose it would be easiest to sum up our interest in the arts as alternative - we don't do mainstream!

The idea behind a move to Spain is because my partner finds it too cold in London in the winter. It would mainly be for the winter months as Meditteranean summer heat makes me feel ill. He has fond memories of living in Spain when he was in an immensely popular Spanish pop group. Because of this he speaks fluent Spanish, which would be an asset until I learn to speak the language fluently. 

So far mrypg9 , you have come closest to giving me an idea of what I suspect the kind of areas we are looking at may be like, but it's good to gather as much information as possible to add to any ideas we may pick up from visits.


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## Pesky Wesky

Well, I beg to disagree with my friend mrypg9, but I think you'll cause plenty of comment here in Spain. But your partner must know that if he's lived here before, musn't he??? The Spanish are not backward in coming forward and will talk about what people are wearing and doing freely. And they STARE a whole lot more than is socially accetable in the UK!!The thing to remember is that most people are doing just that, talking about you, but not necessarily criticising. Or the attitude may be "That's not what I want to wear, but you go ahead," kind of thing.

I think the most cosmopolitan place in Spain is Barcelona. And the arts scene there is varied and vibrant. Think Fura dels Baus
La Fura dels Baus
I think you'd go down a storm there.
Gerrit is a member of the forum who lives in Barcelona. He hasn't been on recently, but if you pm him I'm sure he'd give you a few pointers, being an alternative kind of person himself. You can pm after 5 posts.
Denia might be a bit water -colours- in -France scenario.

And _please_, give us the who what why where on your partner who was a member of a popular Spanish group! I'm dying to know!


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## Alcalaina

marion coward said:


> In terms of appearance we are decidedly alternative - lots of black clothing and heavy eye make up + clothes that would usually be associated with people about ten years younger. Partner is mixed race & has waist length dread locks, partially dyed blonde - think Camden Market. Our main interests are, me - the art scene =20th century + contemporary, reading fiction and otherwise (not potboilers - no Dan Brown in my house!), plants (container gardening), music= contemporary pop, opera, 20th century classical music, The Cinema, swimming, clothes- alternative fashion. Partner contemporary rock and pop music, sport = armchair passive variety, swimming, alternative fashion - clothes. We are both still practicing artists in our own fields. I suppose it would be easiest to sum up our interest in the arts as alternative - we don't do mainstream!
> 
> The idea behind a move to Spain is because my partner finds it too cold in London in the winter. It would mainly be for the winter months as Meditteranean summer heat makes me feel ill. He has fond memories of living in Spain when he was in an immensely popular Spanish pop group. Because of this he speaks fluent Spanish, which would be an asset until I learn to speak the language fluently.
> 
> So far mrypg9 , you have come closest to giving me an idea of what I suspect the kind of areas we are looking at may be like, but it's good to gather as much information as possible to add to any ideas we may pick up from visits.


Honestly, it really doesn't matter what you look like. I live in a small rural town where my Spanish neighbours go shopping in pink pyjamas, we have a local transvestite who wears evening dresses at the weekend, and women who in Britain would be in the navy-and-beige crimplene zone squeeze themselves into skin-tight flamenco dresses at fiesta time. Nobody gives a toss what you look like, it's how you comport yourself that is important.

You might find wearing black gets a bit hot in the summer though!


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## jojo

marion coward said:


> In terms of appearance we are decidedly alternative - lots of black clothing and heavy eye make up + clothes that would usually be associated with people about ten years younger


Ooohh my daughter would love you, thats her look too!!!!

Jo xxx


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## 90199

I live in the Canary Islands, yes we are part of Spain.

The summers here, because of the trade winds are milder than the peninsular, the maximum here where I live 650 meters above sea level was 31ºC, that however was unusual it is usually about mid 20'sºC 

For winter temperatures you are better living in the south of the islands, where the temperatures rarely go below 18ºc at night, and are usually 22 or 23 during the day.

Also the cost of living is far cheaper here, our IGC Vat is only 5%, which makes us far cheaper than England or mainland Spain, E.G. diesel 74.8 cents a litre last week.

The disadvantages are that flights from UK take 4 hours, and where I live I then have an onward flight or ferry.

I live on the island of El Hierro, permanently. Here there are 10,000, habitants, three of which are U.K. citizens, it is a beautiful island completely Canarian, here you make your own entertainment for we do not have theatres or cinemas, we are too far away to receive satellite T.V. I have a big garden, several pairs of walking boots, bicycles and on a night there are some good bars and restaurants, where I converse with the locals who are extremely friendly.

Perhaps you should try renting for a while? 

Hepa


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## fourgotospain

Javea's (next door to Denia) pretty laid back I think and you can certainly buy the Guardian and the Independent (in fact I know a small shop where you can buy them ) We do have a cinema and lots of music things including between fiestas. Art - there are a few galleries around but I don't know about much else - Xabiachica might? 

Warm winter is relative - sure, it's no Singapore but it's got 10 degrees on London at the moment! And it's pretty tropical compared to Madrid in winter too. It's t-shirts and jeans at lunchtime, jumpers morning and evenings. When it rains everything gets cold and damp so my advice - get a rental with a big log fire, UPVC windows and electric blankets on all the beds - works a treat!


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## marion coward

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well, I beg to disagree with my friend mrypg9, but I think you'll cause plenty of comment here in Spain. But your partner must know that if he's lived here before, musn't he??? The Spanish are not backward in coming forward and will talk about what people are wearing and doing freely. And they STARE a whole lot more than is socially accetable in the UK!!The thing to remember is that most people are doing just that, talking about you, but not necessarily criticising. Or the attitude may be "That's not what I want to wear, but you go ahead," kind of thing.
> 
> I think the most cosmopolitan place in Spain is Barcelona. And the arts scene there is varied and vibrant. Think Fura dels Baus
> La Fura dels Baus
> I think you'd go down a storm there.
> Gerrit is a member of the forum who lives in Barcelona. He hasn't been on recently, but if you pm him I'm sure he'd give you a few pointers, being an alternative kind of person himself. You can pm after 5 posts.
> Denia might be a bit water -colours- in -France scenario.
> 
> And _please_, give us the who what why where on your partner who was a member of a popular Spanish group! I'm dying to know!


Yeah - I love Fura dels Baus - the music that is - not the politics. Partner has idea that Barcelona would be too expensive and the only thing I rate there is the Gaudi. Since you ask, he was the second singer in Los Bravos (remember Black is Black?)


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## Alcalaina

marion coward said:


> Yeah - I love Fura dels Baus - the music that is - not the politics. Partner has idea that Barcelona would be too expensive and the only thing I rate there is the Gaudi. Since you ask, he was the second singer in Los Bravos (remember Black is Black?)


I want my baby back! :lalala:


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## marion coward

marion coward said:


> Yeah - I love Fura dels Baus - the music that is - not the politics. Partner has idea that Barcelona would be too expensive and the only thing I rate there is the Gaudi. Since you ask, he was the second singer in Los Bravos (remember Black is Black?)


Oh , and he used to stop em dead in their tracks back in the 70s in the rural areas - those little old ladies in black crossing themselves and screaming "SATANA SATANA!" when he appeared. However that's O.K when you are hugely famous, but not so cool when you're 60 something and out of the public eye.


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## marion coward

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well, I beg to disagree with my friend mrypg9, but I think you'll cause plenty of comment here in Spain. But your partner must know that if he's lived here before, musn't he??? The Spanish are not backward in coming forward and will talk about what people are wearing and doing freely. And they STARE a whole lot more than is socially accetable in the UK!!The thing to remember is that most people are doing just that, talking about you, but not necessarily criticising. Or the attitude may be "That's not what I want to wear, but you go ahead," kind of thing.
> 
> I think the most cosmopolitan place in Spain is Barcelona. And the arts scene there is varied and vibrant. Think Fura dels Baus
> La Fura dels Baus
> I think you'd go down a storm there.
> Gerrit is a member of the forum who lives in Barcelona. He hasn't been on recently, but if you pm him I'm sure he'd give you a few pointers, being an alternative kind of person himself. You can pm after 5 posts.
> Denia might be a bit water -colours- in -France scenario.
> 
> And _please_, give us the who what why where on your partner who was a member of a popular Spanish group! I'm dying to know!


Yeah - I love Fura dels Baus - the music that is - not the politics. Partner has idea that Barcelona would be too expensive and the only thing I rate there is the Gaudi. Since you ask, he was the second singer in Los Bravos (remember Black is Black?)


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## djfwells

Oddly enough Black is Black has been on the playlist with Javea's Coast FM ( Now called Spectrum FM I believe ) for the last few weeks. Crazy !


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## marion coward

Alcalaina said:


> I want my baby back! :lalala:


Exactly!


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## marion coward

Jo - I don't think your daughter would love me . I'm 62 this week! She might have a sneaking respect for someone who'se not yet given up, but I think it would rest there!


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## marion coward

djfwells said:


> Oddly enough Black is Black has been on the playlist with Javea's Coast FM ( Now called Spectrum FM I believe ) for the last few weeks. Crazy !


We hear it from time to time in various places too - nice to know it's still being enjoyed.


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## Pesky Wesky

marion coward said:


> Yeah - I love Fura dels Baus - the music that is - not the politics. Partner has idea that Barcelona would be too expensive and the only thing I rate there is the Gaudi. Since you ask, he was the second singer in Los Bravos (remember Black is Black?)


Barca may be too expensive, but coming from where you are now there's probably no comparison, and like everywhere, there are areas and areas.
Your comment of _ the only thing I rate there is the Gaudi _has taken me by surprise I must admit. I would say it's one of the most creative hubs of Art in Europe and to be dismissed in that short phrase is, well, surprising!!
And yes, Black is Black. Nobody can deny that that is a classic!


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## marion coward

Pesky Wesky said:


> Barca may be too expensive, but coming from where you are now there's probably no comparison, and like everywhere, there are areas and areas.
> Your comment of _ the only thing I rate there is the Gaudi _has taken me by surprise I must admit. I would say it's one of the most creative hubs of Art in Europe and to be dismissed in that short phrase is, well, surprising!!
> And yes, Black is Black. Nobody can deny that that is a classic!



Apologies - that does sound a bit dismissive . I think that my reaction to it was biased during a brief visit around ten years ago, because it reminded me in many ways of Nice and by that time I was well and truly hacked off by the south of France and anything that resembled it.


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## Alcalaina

marion coward said:


> Apologies - that does sound a bit dismissive . I think that my reaction to it was biased during a brief visit around ten years ago, because it reminded me in many ways of Nice and by that time I was well and truly hacked off by the south of France and anything that resembled it.


Don't you think that moving to another country might involve a bit of compromise on your part? It looks as if you are expecting to find somewhere that fits all your requirements, but perhaps it might be worth modifying your requirements, or even opening your mind enough to explore a completely different way of life.


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## mrypg9

Hmm...isn't 'Black is Black' a trifle 'mainstream'? Not what I think of when I think 'alternative'.
But I love it!
I tend to agree with PW. Barcelona would be the nearest match to Hampstead imo - in fact I prefer it. I find Hampstead a bit pretentious and Pseuds' Corner, tbh. Now Camden Market......now you're talking.
We are two mature gay women going on thirty who have had absolutely no problem 'fitting in' (whatever that means). As Alcalaina says, there are all sorts here and people don't give a flying proverbial about what their neighbours get up to or how they dress. 
We've had fairly varied and adventurous lives and we rather appreciate a bit of comparative peace and quiet at last but there are loads of things happening here.
My musical tastes range from Wagner to White Stripes and I do miss my opera and classical concerts - we went regularly to all kinds of arts events in Prague -but in the next couple of months we're off to a production of Cole Porter's great musical 'Anything Goes' and a Jacques Brel tribute concert. Two of our friends here were involved in running the famous Traverse Theatre in Edinburgh for decades and entertain us with amusing anecdotes over lunch.
But the ambiance is definitely not the same - I don't recall loads of golf-obsessed Daily Mail reading gin and tonic swigging reactionaries in Hampstead....but there are many enclaves here where they predominate so choose carefully where you decide to live.


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## marion coward

Alcalaina said:


> Don't you think that moving to another country might involve a bit of compromise on your part? It looks as if you are expecting to find somewhere that fits all your requirements, but perhaps it might be worth modifying your requirements, or even opening your mind enough to explore a completely different way of life.


You may be right, but at the age I am now, I know what I need to remain sane and happy. It doesn't involve a great deal of money, but it does involve access to different forms of culture. I coped with living in Nice for 11 years - I had to. However, there's a difference between surviving and being content, The main concern is my partner's health and that must come first as I can't bear to see him continue to suffer........... but I'm frightened that I'll have to give up everything I love - my books, the Cinema, Art, my Church etc . I'm not a sun worshiper - in fact I don't like hot weather at all. I will be more interested in becoming fluent in Spanish as I will want to tap into the contemporary Art scene / Fringe Theatre movement in Spain, but I don't know if the coastal areas that interest my partner in terms of climate, will provide the kind of interests that I consider vital for my well being.


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## marion coward

mrypg9 said:


> Hmm...isn't 'Black is Black' a trifle 'mainstream'? Not what I think of when I think 'alternative'.
> But I love it!
> I tend to agree with PW. Barcelona would be the nearest match to Hampstead imo - in fact I prefer it. I find Hampstead a bit pretentious and Pseuds' Corner, tbh. Now Camden Market......now you're talking.
> We are two mature gay women going on thirty who have had absolutely no problem 'fitting in' (whatever that means). As Alcalaina says, there are all sorts here and people don't give a flying proverbial about what their neighbours get up to or how they dress.
> We've had fairly varied and adventurous lives and we rather appreciate a bit of comparative peace and quiet at last but there are loads of things happening here.
> My musical tastes range from Wagner to White Stripes and I do miss my opera and classical concerts - we went regularly to all kinds of arts events in Prague -but in the next couple of months we're off to a production of Cole Porter's great musical 'Anything Goes' and a Jacques Brel tribute concert. Two of our friends here were involved in running the famous Traverse Theatre in Edinburgh for decades and entertain us with amusing anecdotes over lunch.
> But the ambiance is definitely not the same - I don't recall loads of golf-obsessed Daily Mail reading gin and tonic swigging reactionaries in Hampstead....but there are many enclaves here where they predominate so choose carefully where you decide to live.


Dead right about Black is Black - that's why he left the group in the first place and has been producing his own material ever since. We're used to being stared at - abroad that is, not here where we blend discreetly into the background. What we would want to avoid is the cliched type of expat one hears about very often here - the ex construction workers/ taxi drivers etc etc, who are drinking themselves into a stupor . The Daily Mail bunch existed in France too and we managed to avoid them, but I have visions of there being vast communities of the other sort in Spain.................or have we been mis informed?


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## Pesky Wesky

marion coward said:


> but I don't know if the coastal areas that interest my partner in terms of climate, will provide the kind of interests that I consider vital for my well being.


That's my doubt too, and that's also why I think Barca or near the city could be an idea. However then you've got other issues like Catalan, humidity (any problems with that? I hate a humid climate and Tarragona for example, on the coast not too far from Barcelona is horribly humid), but i can't see Denia, Altea etc doing it. You'll have to come over and check it all out anyway.

Ah, what about the Balearic islands or are they too hippy??


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## marion coward

Pesky Wesky said:


> That's my doubt too, and that's also why I think Barca or near the city could be an idea. However then you've got other issues like Catalan, humidity (any problems with that? I hate a humid climate and Tarragona for example, on the coast not too far from Barcelona is horribly humid), but i can't see Denia, Altea etc doing it. You'll have to come over and check it all out anyway.
> 
> Ah, what about the Balearic islands or are they too hippy??


Now there's a point - the other members of Los Bravos are living in Mallorca, so that may be a possibility - are the Balearic islands really as hippy as all that? I don't think Ibiza would hit the spot somehow...........may be a few lengthy stays in various areas during the winter months would help us decide. Thank you for giving so much helpful advice - I could have done with something like that before we moved to Nice, but I was younger and more resilient then!


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## Caz.I

marion coward said:


> You may be right, but at the age I am now, I know what I need to remain sane and happy. It doesn't involve a great deal of money, but it does involve access to different forms of culture. I coped with living in Nice for 11 years - I had to. However, there's a difference between surviving and being content, The main concern is my partner's health and that must come first as I can't bear to see him continue to suffer........... but I'm frightened that I'll have to give up everything I love - my books, the Cinema, Art, my Church etc . I'm not a sun worshiper - in fact I don't like hot weather at all. I will be more interested in becoming fluent in Spanish as I will want to tap into the contemporary Art scene / Fringe Theatre movement in Spain, but I don't know if the coastal areas that interest my partner in terms of climate, will provide the kind of interests that I consider vital for my well being.


What about Valencia? Its a very cultural, arty city with a lot going on. :violin: You might find more kindred spirits there.

By the way, mrypg9, believe it or not, I have just seen a promotion for a season of opera (and Swan Lake) at the Myramar Centre, Fuengirola. And there is an art exhibition on at the Casa del Cultura featuring a variety of well-known international artists. :hat: At least they are trying to improve things here. Will be a tough job, mind 

Not much of an alternative music scene here though - the last group to play the castle (in September) was Boney M! And before them, Smokie! :mullet: Not long after I came out here, 7 years ago, Morrissey played there and Lenny Kravitz played the Hipodrome but that was as near to alternative as it got. :rockon: Although the castle also now hosts an annual music festival in August with an interesting mix of Spanish bands on the bill. :drum::music:

I agree with Pesky, though, you sound like you would probably be happier in one of the cities.


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## mrypg9

marion coward said:


> Dead right about Black is Black - that's why he left the group in the first place and has been producing his own material ever since. We're used to being stared at - abroad that is, not here where we blend discreetly into the background. What we would want to avoid is the cliched type of expat one hears about very often here - the ex construction workers/ taxi drivers etc etc, who are drinking themselves into a stupor . The Daily Mail bunch existed in France too and we managed to avoid them, but I have visions of there being vast communities of the other sort in Spain.................or have we been mis informed?


Ah...the lower orders. One just can't avoid them
Unless you are seriously wierd, which I doubt, no-one is going to 'stare' at you, believe me. One of our aquaintances here is the campest, most flamboyant gay man I have ever met - and believe me, I've met some. He manages to go shopping in Carrefour without causing trolley jams in the aisles. 
We are all cliches in our own way, aren't we? To paraphrase George Orwell, it is given to few people to be truly original.
Spain is no different to any other country I've spent time in where there are loads of British immigrants. You choose your friends just as you do in the UK and avoid those you have little in common with. We live in an ambiance here - large house in small village - totally different to that we experienced in NW6, East Anglia or Prague but we've managed to discover many like-minded friends as we did in those other places.
I'm sure there are drunken taxi-drivers and out-of-work brickies somewhere not far away just as there are golf-playing Colonel Blimps but we manage to steer clear of both.
We like it here chiefly because of the climate and excellent fresh food, especially fish as my partner is vegetarian. 
If it weren't for the fact that your partner has health issues, I'd recommend Berlin or Prague, where you may find that the people who are stared at are the Jaeger and Burberry crowd.....


----------



## mrypg9

marion coward said:


> Now there's a point - the other members of Los Bravos are living in Mallorca, so that may be a possibility - are the Balearic islands really as hippy as all that? I don't think Ibiza would hit the spot somehow...........may be a few lengthy stays in various areas during the winter months would help us decide. Thank you for giving so much helpful advice - I could have done with something like that before we moved to Nice, but I was younger and more resilient then!


We used to spend our summers in Ibiza. If the tired, commercialised pseudo-sixties hippy scene floats your boat,that's the place for you - if you're not into the club scene. But I suspect that's not what you are looking for.
Mallorca is now mainly German, it seems.
Have you considered Marrakesh? We loved it there, but too exotic for us.

Caz...thanks for that. I will investigate further.


Another hot and sunny day........lounger by the pool with a good book, methinks.
Thermometer recorded 35C yesterday.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> Unless you are seriously wierd, which I doubt, no-one is going to 'stare' at you, believe me. One of our aquaintances here is the campest, most flamboyant gay man I have ever met - and believe me, I've met some. He manages to go shopping in Carrefour without causing trolley jams in the aisles.


Staring is Spanish. 
Now I think you'll all agree that I don't often (never??) come out with phrases like that, but this is it, this is the thing I'm totally sure of, be it Bilbao, Burgos, Baeza or a Spaniard living in Bilericky, if you're Spanish, you stare!! Now, it might be because you're beautiful, or crazy or you might just be Mr.Ordinary, but I would count it perfectly normal to be stared at. Does it matter is another question. Is it done in a menacing fashion? Hardly ever. 
Another thing to think about is that dressing in a non mainstream way is a statement, isn't it? It's about stepping out of the box and you know that if you do that you will stand out. If the person doing it wants to blend in, the solution is simple and obvious. There are many Corté inglés shops all over Spain and you'll find the "Spanish uniform" in there.
Looking through the thread and your original post you made it clear that climate is the most important thing for your partners health. You thought about Spain because he speaks Spanish. Perhaps the most practical way (which is what you've tried to do) is come up with a list of good climate places which also have an interesting arts scene. The thing is I don't think we've come up with a good all round climate place yet, except Hepa who recommended the Canaries. Canaries arts scene?? No idea, but just the idea of island life I find stifling. All the other places Valencia, Denia, Barcelona, Mallorca all have some degree of bad weather, so perhaps the next questions are: 
How much good weather do we need? - 24 hours, 365 days, 10 months, 9 months???
Does it need to be in Spain??
How much and what kind of cultural stimulus, arty environment is considered the minimum?
Your partner speaks Spanish, but you don't. Any other languages? I presume French. Then Marrekesh might be a possibility as mrypg9 suggested. Obviously for Majorca the other band members are your best source of info. If you find out anything interesting, let us know! Another thought on Majorca is, do you really want to join up with that group of people again??
What ever happens, this seems to be a long term project and it would be best to visit and try out places for extended stays to see which suits you best, if you can allow yourselves that luxury taking into account health and economy.


----------



## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> Staring is Spanish.
> Your partner speaks Spanish, but you don't. Any other languages? I presume French. Then Marrekesh might be a possibility as mrypg9 suggested.
> 
> 
> We really loved Marrakesh. But we're much too 'ordinary' to live there.
> As for staring.....I honestly haven't noticed Spaniards staring, although men often stare at Sandra as when we 'go out' she is an elegant dresser and is tall and slim. (See photos in album).
> For staring, you cannot beat Prague. Both Sandra and I are label queens (TK Maxx in London and Daffys and Labels for Less in New York are our natural habitat) and Czechs just don't have access to that kind of (cheap) finery.
> We both got used to having every item of our apparel scrutinised on the metro, at bus stops, in the streets.....
> At first it was annoying but as we'd never had that kind of attention in our lives before - well, I hadn't - I got quite accustomed to it.


----------



## marion coward

Alcalaina said:


> Don't you think that moving to another country might involve a bit of compromise on your part? It looks as if you are expecting to find somewhere that fits all your requirements, but perhaps it might be worth modifying your requirements, or even opening your mind enough to explore a completely different way of life.


Just noticed that you are in the Cadiz area - one which partner favours ( he was given the freedom of the city back in the glory days). What about the climate there? I've also heard that it's the "real" Spain - home of a large gypsy population /Flamenco/ etc. It certainly looks attractive from the images on the net. Any useful info?


----------



## marion coward

mrypg9 said:


> We really loved Marrakesh. But we're much too 'ordinary' to live there.
> As for staring.....I honestly haven't noticed Spaniards staring, although men often stare at Sandra as when we 'go out' she is an elegant dresser and is tall and slim. (See photos in album).
> For staring, you cannot beat Prague. Both Sandra and I are label queens (TK Maxx in London and Daffys and Labels for Less in New York are our natural habitat) and Czechs just don't have access to that kind of (cheap) finery.
> We both got used to having every item of our apparel scrutinised on the metro, at bus stops, in the streets.....
> At first it was annoying but as we'd never had that kind of attention in our lives before - well, I hadn't - I got quite accustomed to it.


You sound far from " Ordinary " to me! - Agree that staring in itself is not an issue, it's when accompanied by hostility that it becomes a bore. Did you read the 'SATANA" reply I posted yesterday? Anyway, everything you have mentioned is of great value as it is helping me to become informed. I'm sure I would cope with whatever life in Spain offered - it's just that I've kept afloat for years in difficult situations that others would 've given up on and also lived a life which was rich and rewarding as I do at present and I'm trying in advance to find a way of making the situation easier for my self without compromising on partner's health, but without throwing myself into a situation that becomes a daily struggle. When living in Nice I spoke French fluently and as partner is French, lived a life shared between the ex pat community + the locals. I had to work tremendously hard to survive financially and what time I did have socially was shared out between one or two people I had vague affinities with, but have not felt the need to keep in touch with since leaving. I made no friends within the French community, apart from the wife of a fellow artist who's severely mentally incapacitated and whom I try to help in a long distance way.

So hence all this information gathering. Once bitten, twice shy..........


----------



## mrypg9

marion coward said:


> You sound far from " Ordinary " to me! - Agree that staring in itself is not an issue, it's when accompanied by hostility that it becomes a bore. Did you read the 'SATANA" reply I posted yesterday? Anyway, everything you have mentioned is of great value as it is helping me to become informed. I'm sure I would cope with whatever life in Spain offered - it's just that I've kept afloat for years in difficult situations that others would 've given up on and also lived a life which was rich and rewarding as I do at present and I'm trying in advance to find a way of making the situation easier for my self without compromising on partner's health, but without throwing myself into a situation that becomes a daily struggle. When living in Nice I spoke French fluently and as partner is French, lived a life shared between the ex pat community + the locals. I had to work tremendously hard to survive financially and what time I did have socially was shared out between one or two people I had vague affinities with, but have not felt the need to keep in touch with since leaving. I made no friends within the French community, apart from the wife of a fellow artist who's severely mentally incapacitated and whom I try to help in a long distance way.
> 
> So hence all this information gathering. Once bitten, twice shy..........



I would hazard a guess that the CDS is not for you. My partner and I came here for peace and quiet and because my family has property here- as I said we had a hectic life before leaving the UK - and we tend to create our own little haven of tranquility and contentment wherever we go. By chance we now find we have quite a busy social life and I'm sure you'd do the same but..... I reiterate: this ain't NW3 or NW6 ...or even N10 and certainly not N1.
I have a suggestion: you speak fluent French so why not winter in Marrakech or somewhere in the foothills of the Atlas? You could easily rent a very pleasant villa. and the climate would suit your partner. You would surely come across like-minded people of all nationalities. From Tangier it's half-an-hour on the fast ferry to Spain so you could spend a week looking around Malaga and Granada provinces.
Just a thought


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## Alcalaina

marion coward said:


> Just noticed that you are in the Cadiz area - one which partner favours ( he was given the freedom of the city back in the glory days). What about the climate there? I've also heard that it's the "real" Spain - home of a large gypsy population /Flamenco/ etc. It certainly looks attractive from the images on the net. Any useful info?


Well, I'm not sure what "real Spain" is, but personally I love it here. There are relatively few British expats on the Costa de la Luz compared with the Mediterranean coast, except for Chiclana which has about 1000, and that's about the only place you will find much English spoken. There are some long stretches of coastline which still remain undeveloped.

The city of Cadiz is great, plenty of art and music going on there and a fantastic location sticking out into the Atlantic. The Carnival is world famous. There are some nice smaller places inland, like Vejer de la Frontera or Medina Sidonia, but they would probably be a bit quiet for you.

Flamenco is the music of the people here, you hear it everywhere and it is performed and enjoyed by all age groups and classes. You are unlikely to come across "authentic" gypsy flamenco though, as they keep it to themselves

The climate is temperate, rarely above 30 or below 15, and it is windy about a quarter of the time (the Levante from the East or the Poniente from the West). This is the main reason why the coast hasn't been developed as much as the Med; it's great for windsurfers. Winter rainfall is quite high, it rains on an average of 8 days a month from November through February.


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## Alcalaina

PS you can also get a ferry to Morocco from Tarifa, at the very bottom of the Costa de la Luz (accessible by bus from Cadiz).


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## marion coward

Alcalaina said:


> Well, I'm not sure what "real Spain" is, but personally I love it here. There are relatively few British expats on the Costa de la Luz compared with the Mediterranean coast, except for Chiclana which has about 1000, and that's about the only place you will find much English spoken. There are some long stretches of coastline which still remain undeveloped.
> 
> The city of Cadiz is great, plenty of art and music going on there and a fantastic location sticking out into the Atlantic. The Carnival is world famous. There are some nice smaller places inland, like Vejer de la Frontera or Medina Sidonia, but they would probably be a bit quiet for you.
> 
> Flamenco is the music of the people here, you hear it everywhere and it is performed and enjoyed by all age groups and classes. You are unlikely to come across "authentic" gypsy flamenco though, as they keep it to themselves
> 
> The climate is temperate, rarely above 30 or below 15, and it is windy about a quarter of the time (the Levante from the East or the Poniente from the West). This is the main reason why the coast hasn't been developed as much as the Med; it's great for windsurfers. Winter rainfall is quite high, it rains on an average of 8 days a month from November through February.


"Real Spain" - an area where the majority of the population are Spanish , and there is not much of an ex pat community. It sounds interesting - we really will have to come and visit some time in Winter to check out the temperature. I'm interested in the Gypsy community in Spain and would like to learn more about their ways and culture. Apperantly there is a big gypsy community in the area around Cadiz.


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## marion coward

mrypg9 said:


> I would hazard a guess that the CDS is not for you. My partner and I came here for peace and quiet and because my family has property here- as I said we had a hectic life before leaving the UK - and we tend to create our own little haven of tranquility and contentment wherever we go. By chance we now find we have quite a busy social life and I'm sure you'd do the same but..... I reiterate: this ain't NW3 or NW6 ...or even N10 and certainly not N1.
> I have a suggestion: you speak fluent French so why not winter in Marrakech or somewhere in the foothills of the Atlas? You could easily rent a very pleasant villa. and the climate would suit your partner. You would surely come across like-minded people of all nationalities. From Tangier it's half-an-hour on the fast ferry to Spain so you could spend a week looking around Malaga and Granada provinces.
> Just a thought



Sounds like a great idea to me, but I think the Other Half is set on Spanish territory.......which is a pity as I have memories of North Africa as being really exciting visually.


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## jojo

marion coward said:


> "Real Spain" - an area where the majority of the population are Spanish , and there is not much of an ex pat community. It sounds interesting - we really will have to come and visit some time in Winter to check out the temperature. I'm interested in the Gypsy community in Spain and would like to learn more about their ways and culture. Apperantly there is a big gypsy community in the area around Cadiz.



Hhhmmm, I maybe speaking out of turn, but I dont think "gypsy communities" are quite as "romantic" or romany as they used to be. Certainly, the ones around my town dont seem to be the least bit interested in flamenco or their culture!!

Jo xxx


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## marion coward

jojo said:


> Hhhmmm, I maybe speaking out of turn, but I dont think "gypsy communities" are quite as "romantic" or romany as they used to be. Certainly, the ones around my town dont seem to be the least bit interested in flamenco or their culture!!
> 
> Jo xxx



I have quite a bit to do with the Romanian gypsy community here in the U.K. Gypsies interest me for various reasons - nothing to do with silk embroidered shawls and a rose between the teeth!


----------



## Alcalaina

marion coward said:


> "Real Spain" - an area where the majority of the population are Spanish , and there is not much of an ex pat community. It sounds interesting - we really will have to come and visit some time in Winter to check out the temperature. I'm interested in the Gypsy community in Spain and would like to learn more about their ways and culture. Apperantly there is a big gypsy community in the area around Cadiz.


Right, I´m with you now. Some people (not you I´m sure!) have a romantic notion of a "real Spain" where gypsies sit round the campfire playing guitars and telling stories, women wear flamenco dresses and handsome young dudes ride round on white stallions. These days they tend to live in seedy tower blocks on sink estates, use hard drugs and ride noisy motor bikes. Unemployment round Cadiz is over 40% among the young and unqualified and factories are still closing. Times are very, very hard in Real Spain.

BUT the reality is that Gaditanos are tough and resiliient, they have come through a lot worse in the past, and their wonderful attitude to life and their sense of humour has not been quashed. Do come and see for yourselves - Carnival (spelt "carnaval" in Spanish) is 3rd to 13th March next year.
Carnival in Cadiz


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## marion coward

Alcalaina said:


> Right, I´m with you now. Some people (not you I´m sure!) have a romantic notion of a "real Spain" where gypsies sit round the campfire playing guitars and telling stories, women wear flamenco dresses and handsome young dudes ride round on white stallions. These days they tend to live in seedy tower blocks on sink estates, use hard drugs and ride noisy motor bikes. Unemployment round Cadiz is over 40% among the young and unqualified and factories are still closing. Times are very, very hard in Real Spain.
> 
> BUT the reality is that Gaditanos are tough and resiliient, they have come through a lot worse in the past, and their wonderful attitude to life and their sense of humour has not been quashed. Do come and see for yourselves - Carnival (spelt "carnaval" in Spanish) is 3rd to 13th March next year.
> Carnival in Cadiz


Sound a bit like their Romanian counterparts - I'm sure they have a lot of hostility directed against them by the locals. My experience is that they are proud and unafraid of anything, and set apart from the host community in which they live, but well worth getting to know. Guess all this is still about trying to get the flavour of the area before making any decisions. A huge amount of risk and money is at stake here.


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## jkchawner

marion coward said:


> I have quite a bit to do with the Romanian gypsy community here in the U.K. Gypsies interest me for various reasons - nothing to do with silk embroidered shawls and a rose between the teeth!


must be scatter cushion's bare knuckle fight's and ringed hobby caravan's then


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## Alcalaina

marion coward said:


> Sound a bit like their Romanian counterparts - I'm sure they have a lot of hostility directed against them by the locals. My experience is that they are proud and unafraid of anything, and set apart from the host community in which they live, but well worth getting to know. Guess all this is still about trying to get the flavour of the area before making any decisions. A huge amount of risk and money is at stake here.


They dont experience anything like the hostility they do in Britain, France or Italy, as far as I can see. In our village there is a gypsy family who have been settled here for years, they used to be blacksmiths. One branch of the family moved to San Fernando on the coast, and their son became "El Camaron de la Isla" a world famous flamenco singer.

Try and find a copy of Giles Tremlett-s book "Ghosts of Spain" which contains a fascinating chapter on flamenco and gypsies in this area.

Sorry, I am not really illiterate but the punctuation marks on this keyboard seem to have a mind of their own this morning. I cant find any brackets or apostrophes ... ...


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## marion coward

Alcalaina said:


> They dont experience anything like the hostility they do in Britain, France or Italy, as far as I can see. In our village there is a gypsy family who have been settled here for years, they used to be blacksmiths. One branch of the family moved to San Fernando on the coast, and their son became "El Camaron de la Isla" a world famous flamenco singer.
> 
> Try and find a copy of Giles Tremlett-s book "Ghosts of Spain" which contains a fascinating chapter on flamenco and gypsies in this area.
> 
> Sorry, I am not really illiterate but the punctuation marks on this keyboard seem to have a mind of their own this morning. I cant find any brackets or apostrophes ... ...


I'd say that in France and (maybe) Italy, there is traditionally a lot of prejudice directed against Gypsy communities, but perhaps not so in the U.k where it is reserved for other kinds of minority groups. However I'm a big city girl so maybe don't have such a clear picture of the real situation. Thank you for the name of the book - I will try and hunt down a copy - it sounds interesting.


----------



## mrypg9

marion coward said:


> I'd say that in France and (maybe) Italy, there is traditionally a lot of prejudice directed against Gypsy communities, but perhaps not so in the U.k where it is reserved for other kinds of minority groups. However I'm a big city girl so maybe don't have such a clear picture of the real situation. Thank you for the name of the book - I will try and hunt down a copy - it sounds interesting.



I always chuckle when I herar the phrase 'real Spain'. Why do we never hear 'the real Britain', the 'real France', the 'real America'?.
Imo it shows how the package travel industry has influenced our view of Spain.
The real Spain is in fact everywhere within the borders of the country....Torremolinos is as 'real' as Rio Gordo, Benidorm as 'real' as Barcelona.
And there are British immigrants everywhere in Spain,even in the remotest parts.
Whilst trekking in the mountains and looking lost and thirsty we were hailed from a nearby hamlet in English/Glaswegian: 'Are you lost, girls? Would you like a drink?'
There is also the fact that if you consider the absence of immigrants to constitute the 'real' Spain you have obliterated that the moment you, a British immigrant, set foot there!
The whole topic strikes me as being akin to the 'I am a traveller, you are a tourist' view.
Roma.....not very romantic, in reality. The Czech Republic has one of the highest Roma populations in Europe. They mainly live in very unromantic squalor and experience hostlity anmd prejudice from the Czechs. The CR has been reported to the EU for its segregationist educational policies towards Roma children.
But the situation isn't as simple as some Roma campaigners maintain. A vicious circle exists where the failings of both Roma and the Czech communities combine to perpetuate the second-class citizen status of the Roma.
In our three years in Prague we were mugged five times by Roma - each time unsuccessfully as we fight back with whatever weapon we have at hand: car keys, knees in groins etc. Although I understand the unemployment and poverty that drives many Roma men and women to crime and prostitution I and most people object to being interfered with as we go about our lawful business.
Nothing romantic about Roma, I'm afraid, whether Romanian, Slovak, Czech, Spanish, whatever.
Whatever their culture may have been long ago it is now largely one of poverty, alcoholism, unemployment, drug addiction and petty crime.


----------



## mrypg9

marion coward said:


> I'd say that in France and (maybe) Italy, there is traditionally a lot of prejudice directed against Gypsy communities, but perhaps not so in the U.k where it is reserved for other kinds of minority groups. However I'm a big city girl so maybe don't have such a clear picture of the real situation. Thank you for the name of the book - I will try and hunt down a copy - it sounds interesting.



I always chuckle when I herar the phrase 'real Spain'. Why do we never hear 'the real Britain', the 'real France', the 'real America'?.
Imo it shows how the package travel industry has influenced our view of Spain.
The real Spain is in fact everywhere within the borders of the country....Torremolinos is as 'real' as Rio Gordo, Benidorm as 'real' as Barcelona.
And there are British immigrants everywhere in Spain,even in the remotest parts.
Whilst trekking in the mountains and looking lost and thirsty we were hailed from a nearby hamlet in English/Glaswegian: 'Are you lost, girls? Would you like a drink?'
There is also the fact that if you consider the absence of immigrants to constitute the 'real' Spain you have obliterated that the moment you, a British immigrant, set foot there!
The whole topic strikes me as being akin to the 'I am a traveller, you are a tourist' view.
Roma.....not very romantic, in reality. The Czech Republic has one of the highest Roma populations in Europe. They mainly live in very unromantic squalor and experience hostlity anmd prejudice from the Czechs. The CR has been reported to the EU for its segregationist educational policies towards Roma children.
But the situation isn't as simple as some Roma campaigners maintain. A vicious circle exists where the failings of both Roma and the Czech communities combine to perpetuate the second-class citizen status of the Roma.
In our three years in Prague we were mugged five times by Roma - each time unsuccessfully as we fight back with whatever weapon we have at hand: car keys, knees in groins etc. Although I understand the unemployment and poverty that drives many Roma men and women to crime and prostitution I and most people object to being interfered with as we go about our lawful business.
Nothing romantic about Roma, I'm afraid, whether Romanian, Slovak, Czech, Spanish, whatever.
Whatever their culture may have been long ago it is now largely one of poverty, alcoholism, unemployment, drug addiction and petty crime.


----------



## mrypg9

marion coward said:


> I'd say that in France and (maybe) Italy, there is traditionally a lot of prejudice directed against Gypsy communities, but perhaps not so in the U.k where it is reserved for other kinds of minority groups. However I'm a big city girl so maybe don't have such a clear picture of the real situation. Thank you for the name of the book - I will try and hunt down a copy - it sounds interesting.



I always chuckle when I herar the phrase 'real Spain'. Why do we never hear 'the real Britain', the 'real France', the 'real America'?.
Imo it shows how the package travel industry has influenced our view of Spain.
The real Spain is in fact everywhere within the borders of the country....Torremolinos is as 'real' as Rio Gordo, Benidorm as 'real' as Barcelona.
And there are British immigrants everywhere in Spain,even in the remotest parts.
Whilst trekking in the mountains and looking lost and thirsty we were hailed from a nearby hamlet in English/Glaswegian: 'Are you lost, girls? Would you like a drink?'
There is also the fact that if you consider the absence of immigrants to constitute the 'real' Spain you have obliterated that the moment you, a British immigrant, set foot there!
The whole topic strikes me as being akin to the 'I am a traveller, you are a tourist' view.
Roma.....not very romantic, in reality. The Czech Republic has one of the highest Roma populations in Europe. They mainly live in very unromantic squalor and experience hostlity anmd prejudice from the Czechs. The CR has been reported to the EU for its segregationist educational policies towards Roma children.
But the situation isn't as simple as some Roma campaigners maintain. A vicious circle exists where the failings of both Roma and the Czech communities combine to perpetuate the second-class citizen status of the Roma.
In our three years in Prague we were mugged five times by Roma - each time unsuccessfully as we fight back with whatever weapon we have at hand: car keys, knees in groins etc. Although I understand the unemployment and poverty that drives many Roma men and women to crime and prostitution I and most people object to being interfered with as we go about our lawful business.
Nothing romantic about Roma, I'm afraid, whether Romanian, Slovak, Czech, Spanish, whatever.
Whatever their culture may have been long ago it is now largely one of poverty, alcoholism, unemployment, drug addiction and petty crime.


----------



## mrypg9

marion coward said:


> I'd say that in France and (maybe) Italy, there is traditionally a lot of prejudice directed against Gypsy communities, but perhaps not so in the U.k where it is reserved for other kinds of minority groups. However I'm a big city girl so maybe don't have such a clear picture of the real situation. Thank you for the name of the book - I will try and hunt down a copy - it sounds interesting.



I always chuckle when I herar the phrase 'real Spain'. Why do we never hear 'the real Britain', the 'real France', the 'real America'?.
Imo it shows how the package travel industry has influenced our view of Spain.
The real Spain is in fact everywhere within the borders of the country....Torremolinos is as 'real' as Rio Gordo, Benidorm as 'real' as Barcelona.
And there are British immigrants everywhere in Spain,even in the remotest parts.
Whilst trekking in the mountains and looking lost and thirsty we were hailed from a nearby hamlet in English/Glaswegian: 'Are you lost, girls? Would you like a drink?'
There is also the fact that if you consider the absence of immigrants to constitute the 'real' Spain you have obliterated that the moment you, a British immigrant, set foot there!
The whole topic strikes me as being akin to the 'I am a traveller, you are a tourist' view.
Roma.....not very romantic, in reality. The Czech Republic has one of the highest Roma populations in Europe. They mainly live in very unromantic squalor and experience hostlity anmd prejudice from the Czechs. The CR has been reported to the EU for its segregationist educational policies towards Roma children.
But the situation isn't as simple as some Roma campaigners maintain. A vicious circle exists where the failings of both Roma and the Czech communities combine to perpetuate the second-class citizen status of the Roma.
In our three years in Prague we were mugged five times by Roma - each time unsuccessfully as we fight back with whatever weapon we have at hand: car keys, knees in groins etc. Although I understand the unemployment and poverty that drives many Roma men and women to crime and prostitution I and most people object to being interfered with as we go about our lawful business.
Nothing romantic about Roma, I'm afraid, whether Romanian, Slovak, Czech, Spanish, whatever.
Whatever their culture may have been long ago it is now largely one of poverty, alcoholism, unemployment, drug addiction and petty crime.


----------



## mrypg9

marion coward said:


> I'd say that in France and (maybe) Italy, there is traditionally a lot of prejudice directed against Gypsy communities, but perhaps not so in the U.k where it is reserved for other kinds of minority groups. However I'm a big city girl so maybe don't have such a clear picture of the real situation. Thank you for the name of the book - I will try and hunt down a copy - it sounds interesting.



I always chuckle when I herar the phrase 'real Spain'. Why do we never hear 'the real Britain', the 'real France', the 'real America'?.
Imo it shows how the package travel industry has influenced our view of Spain.
The real Spain is in fact everywhere within the borders of the country....Torremolinos is as 'real' as Rio Gordo, Benidorm as 'real' as Barcelona.
And there are British immigrants everywhere in Spain,even in the remotest parts.
Whilst trekking in the mountains and looking lost and thirsty we were hailed from a nearby hamlet in English/Glaswegian: 'Are you lost, girls? Would you like a drink?'
There is also the fact that if you consider the absence of immigrants to constitute the 'real' Spain you have obliterated that the moment you, a British immigrant, set foot there!
The whole topic strikes me as being akin to the 'I am a traveller, you are a tourist' view.
Roma.....not very romantic, in reality. The Czech Republic has one of the highest Roma populations in Europe. They mainly live in very unromantic squalor and experience hostlity anmd prejudice from the Czechs. The CR has been reported to the EU for its segregationist educational policies towards Roma children.
But the situation isn't as simple as some Roma campaigners maintain. A vicious circle exists where the failings of both Roma and the Czech communities combine to perpetuate the second-class citizen status of the Roma.
In our three years in Prague we were mugged five times by Roma - each time unsuccessfully as we fight back with whatever weapon we have at hand: car keys, knees in groins etc. Although I understand the unemployment and poverty that drives many Roma men and women to crime and prostitution I and most people object to being interfered with as we go about our lawful business.
Nothing romantic about Roma, I'm afraid, whether Romanian, Slovak, Czech, Spanish, whatever.
Whatever their culture may have been long ago it is now largely one of poverty, alcoholism, unemployment, drug addiction and petty crime.


----------



## marion coward

mrypg9 said:


> I always chuckle when I herar the phrase 'real Spain'. Why do we never hear 'the real Britain', the 'real France', the 'real America'?.
> Imo it shows how the package travel industry has influenced our view of Spain.
> The real Spain is in fact everywhere within the borders of the country....Torremolinos is as 'real' as Rio Gordo, Benidorm as 'real' as Barcelona.
> And there are British immigrants everywhere in Spain,even in the remotest parts.
> Whilst trekking in the mountains and looking lost and thirsty we were hailed from a nearby hamlet in English/Glaswegian: 'Are you lost, girls? Would you like a drink?'
> There is also the fact that if you consider the absence of immigrants to constitute the 'real' Spain you have obliterated that the moment you, a British immigrant, set foot there!
> The whole topic strikes me as being akin to the 'I am a traveller, you are a tourist' view.
> Roma.....not very romantic, in reality. The Czech Republic has one of the highest Roma populations in Europe. They mainly live in very unromantic squalor and experience hostlity anmd prejudice from the Czechs. The CR has been reported to the EU for its segregationist educational policies towards Roma children.
> But the situation isn't as simple as some Roma campaigners maintain. A vicious circle exists where the failings of both Roma and the Czech communities combine to perpetuate the second-class citizen status of the Roma.
> In our three years in Prague we were mugged five times by Roma - each time unsuccessfully as we fight back with whatever weapon we have at hand: car keys, knees in groins etc. Although I understand the unemployment and poverty that drives many Roma men and women to crime and prostitution I and most people object to being interfered with as we go about our lawful business.
> Nothing romantic about Roma, I'm afraid, whether Romanian, Slovak, Czech, Spanish, whatever.
> Whatever their culture may have been long ago it is now largely one of poverty, alcoholism, unemployment, drug addiction and petty crime.



Don't think the word " romantic " appeared in my replies. Remember I work with gypsies on a regular basis and the interest stems from what I 'm discovering about them as a community. Am sorry to hear about your experiences though - was it because you were speaking English? My experience of that sort of street crime has been that people who are obviously not part of a community are targeted as the implication is that they are wealthier than the locals.
As for the "real' Italy, France or where ever - might I suggest that you've never heard the " real" France mentioned because that's not how the French say it . For the record, the expression would be " La France profonde", and I imagine that there is also an equivalent in Italian. In terms of the U.K, I would suggest that any rural area away from the larger conurbations could be classified in this way, in as much as local traditions are still strictly adhered to and the indigenous population maintain a close knit community which excludes those (usually of a different colour) who are perceived as being outsiders.
I have also had personal experience of this, though must admit that it may gradually be changing thanks to computers and other enhanced forms of communication.

Was it you who stated that people who dress in an alternative way do so in the anticipation of being looked at? That got me thinking, and whilst I can't speak for my man, I consider that any embellishment I make to my appearance is for myself. I consider that how I adorn myself and decorate my environment is an extension of my Art and a work in progress. As I am my own most exacting critic, if I think my aim has been achieved then that's what counts. 

Thanks for keeping up this contact - am finding it thought provoking and interesting


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## marion coward

marion coward said:


> Don't think the word " romantic " appeared in my replies. Remember I work with gypsies on a regular basis and the interest stems from what I 'm discovering about them as a community. Am sorry to hear about your experiences though - was it because you were speaking English? My experience of that sort of street crime has been that people who are obviously not part of a community are targeted as the implication is that they are wealthier than the locals.
> As for the "real' Italy, France or where ever - might I suggest that you've never heard the " real" France mentioned because that's not how the French say it . For the record, the expression would be " La France profonde", and I imagine that there is also an equivalent in Italian. In terms of the U.K, I would suggest that any rural area away from the larger conurbations could be classified in this way, in as much as local traditions are still strictly adhered to and the indigenous population maintain a close knit community which excludes those (usually of a different colour) who are perceived as being outsiders.
> I have also had personal experience of this, though must admit that it may gradually be changing thanks to computers and other enhanced forms of communication.
> 
> Was it you who stated that people who dress in an alternative way do so in the anticipation of being looked at? That got me thinking, and whilst I can't speak for my man, I consider that any embellishment I make to my appearance is for myself. I consider that how I adorn myself and decorate my environment is an extension of my Art and a work in progress. As I am my own most exacting critic, if I think my aim has been achieved then that's what counts.
> 
> Thanks for keeping up this contact - am finding it thought provoking and interesting


It's mainly my partner who wants to keep us away from large ex pat communities as he is afraid of finding himself in Billericay by the Meditteranean - hence ideas about Cadiz.


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## Pesky Wesky

marion coward said:


> Was it you who stated that people who dress in an alternative way do so in the anticipation of being looked at? That got me thinking, and whilst I can't speak for my man, I consider that any embellishment I make to my appearance is for myself. I consider that how I adorn myself and decorate my environment is an extension of my Art and a work in progress. As I am my own most exacting critic, if I think my aim has been achieved then that's what counts.
> 
> Thanks for keeping up this contact - am finding it thought provoking and interesting


No, it was me (PW) who said that about ways of dress. I think it's great that you dress the way you want. One of the privileges that we have and should excercise. 
I used to be a more flamboyant dresser, but in a bid to be more accepted by my Basque (notoriously conservative) inlaws and to be more acceptable in the Spanish business world I became more and more conservative.
Went well in the business world , but of course the inlaws and I still have the same opinion of each other... The one advantage I think is that you age better in more "normal " clothes.
Howver the point I was making about dressing in an alternative way is that if you choose that path, even though it may not be your _*aim*_, standing out from the crowd and receiving looks and comments must be an expected spin off???
PS All this talk about The Partner, and everything that you are taking into consiseration for him - Get him on here!!!


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## mrypg9

marion coward said:


> Don't think the word " romantic " appeared in my replies. Remember I work with gypsies on a regular basis and the interest stems from what I 'm discovering about them as a community. Am sorry to hear about your experiences though - was it because you were speaking English? My experience of that sort of street crime has been that people who are obviously not part of a community are targeted as the implication is that they are wealthier than the locals.
> As for the "real' Italy, France or where ever - might I suggest that you've never heard the " real" France mentioned because that's not how the French say it . For the record, the expression would be " La France profonde", and I imagine that there is also an equivalent in Italian. In terms of the U.K, I would suggest that any rural area away from the larger conurbations could be classified in this way, in as much as local traditions are still strictly adhered to and the indigenous population maintain a close knit community which excludes those (usually of a different colour) who are perceived as being outsiders.
> I have also had personal experience of this, though must admit that it may gradually be changing thanks to computers and other enhanced forms of communication.
> 
> Was it you who stated that people who dress in an alternative way do so in the anticipation of being looked at? That got me thinking, and whilst I can't speak for my man, I consider that any embellishment I make to my appearance is for myself. I consider that how I adorn myself and decorate my environment is an extension of my Art and a work in progress. As I am my own most exacting critic, if I think my aim has been achieved then that's what counts.
> 
> Thanks for keeping up this contact - am finding it thought provoking and interesting



In the CR all are targeted. Everyone who is not Roma is a target as it is assumed - correctly - that they are wealthier. There is no doubt that Czechs -even educated Czechs - are deeply racist where Roma are concerned but as I said it's a self-perpetuating vicious circle. As with most issues of that nature, education is the key. Unfortunately, because of lack of job opportunities caused by prejudice, education is viewed by many Roma parents as a waste of time. 
As for 'la France profonde'...as a reasonably fluent French speaker - I used to work as an interpreter/translator and have like you spent considerable periods of time in France- I am aware of the phrase but it is not usually applied by French people in the same sense that people use the term 'real Spain'.
The latter phrase is usually employed to distinguish what people imagine to be areas unspoilt by Brits and tourism/development from some imaginary 'pure' social, cultural and geographical entity that, frankly, doesn't exist..
I didn't say that people who dress differently are doing so in order to draw attention to themselves. We all dress with that aim in mind,in one way or another. I did say that I doubt if others would find you interesting or unusual enough to warrant extensive scrutiny unless you resembled a member of the Monster Raving Loony Party. In Eastbourne, maybe...although I've seen some unusual sights there We are all creators of our own self image to some extent. 
That's the enduring legacy of post-modernism for you.....
I doubt such close-knit communities of the kind you describe exist in the UK anymore. The internet/satellite tv/ease of travel/commerce have opened up and homogenised communities.
Your penultimate sentence amused me and got me thinking... Am I too a work of art in progress?? I'm certainly a work in progress but towards which ultimate end...As Goethe wrote in 'Faust'....'Du gleichst dem Geist dem du begreifst'.
i.e. we all have limitations to our aspirations, artistic or otherwise. Mine alas are narrow..


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## Joturke

My own opinion is that between the two local nationally known theatres, Villamarta and La Falla and supported by the smaller local fringe theatres the Cadiz province is at least for me a musical and artistic delight to enjoy.

As to living here - that is best left to an individual and personal choice based on research and personal preferences. I have noticed comments of how cold it gets- well in Cadiz province there are villages located close to 1000m above the sea- as best I remember in Britain there are no villages at that altitude- but for sure it will be cold during winter at both that altitude and even at considerably less metres above the sea.
One can debate still the cows make the barn -what is the best location and why- and it can be interesting to read another’s opinion written politely and in a nonjudgmental manner. Ultimately people make the choice for a wide range of needs likes etc and those that get it right will no doubt enjoy plenty of life’s attractions in their chosen destination.


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## mrypg9

I've been pondering this whole question of dress styles.....it seems to me that half the younger population of Europe is wearing black and exaggerated eye-makeup, as Jo hinted, so maybe it's the age factor that you think will attract untoward attention...
I dress in a way that my mother would have considered far too youthful when she was my age- I'm roughly the same age as the OP. My style is smart/casual Tommy Hilfiger/Calvin Klein /The Gap type gear (bought mostly at T K Maxx!). Therefore I'm often black-clad in the cooler months - sans eye makeup, though. Shades de rigeur, however.
I do however see very many women in their sixties and seventies even dressed in a way that causes many people to stare. They are usually crammed into tight, lurid clothing and sport dyed blonde hair worn in styles that might suit a thirty year-old at a push. Leopard skin and other similarfabrics often feature in their garb, as do vertiginous high-heeled glittery sandals..
But hey, that's Marbella for you
We are fortunate in that we can now choose our own style and create our own self-image in a way that we never could before. Very post-modern
And we shouldn't forget that 'alternative' is, like 'mainstream', a marketing concept.
An excellent book explaining how commerce creates/exploits all lifestyle choices is 'The Conquest of Cool' by Thomas Frank.
Well worth a read. Probably available from amazon.uk for 5p.


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## mrypg9

marion coward said:


> It's mainly my partner who wants to keep us away from large ex pat communities as he is afraid of finding himself in Billericay by the Meditteranean - hence ideas about Cadiz.


Cue for howls of outrage from immigrants from Billericay....
Some might fear finding themmselves in communities resembling Hampstead on the Med, though.
As the Spanish say, Sobre los gustos, no hay disputos.


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## mrypg9

Apologies for repeated duplicates of earlier posts - mods please delete!
Reason: for the second time in less than a fortnight we were unable to access the internet. We were given a silly reason by our ISP - adverse weather conditions. I checked with movistar/telefonica who report service as normal.
This p****d me off so mightily that I asked movistar what they would charge to reconnect me to their service and was told; nothing and we will offer you a year's phone/internet for 39 euros per month inclusive of IVA - cheaper than the provider I switched to (telitec).
And if the rental/internet charge goes up after a year I will stay with movistar. Lesson learned.


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## Pesky Wesky

Aren't you getting a little repetitive in your old age mrypg9???
Talk about brow beating...


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## marion coward

Pesky Wesky said:


> No, it was me (PW) who said that about ways of dress. I think it's great that you dress the way you want. One of the privileges that we have and should excercise.
> I used to be a more flamboyant dresser, but in a bid to be more accepted by my Basque (notoriously conservative) inlaws and to be more acceptable in the Spanish business world I became more and more conservative.
> Went well in the business world , but of course the inlaws and I still have the same opinion of each other... The one advantage I think is that you age better in more "normal " clothes.
> Howver the point I was making about dressing in an alternative way is that if you choose that path, even though it may not be your _*aim*_, standing out from the crowd and receiving looks and comments must be an expected spin off???
> PS All this talk about The Partner, and everything that you are taking into consiseration for him - Get him on here!!!


****** the Basque in laws! Dress for yourself - and no I don't agree that as you age it's easier to wear more conventional clothing, tho' the Other Half and I joke about what style we will adopt when we really ARE old. The current idea is that we should go all Saville Row and tailored like my old art school contemporaries Gilbert and George, but there's time fo change our ideas yet! Yes I should get The Partner on here, but there's one little problem - for various reasons, he doesn't write very well in English and has difficulty reading it. Out of interest, what is your business?


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## marion coward

mrypg9 said:


> Cue for howls of outrage from immigrants from Billericay....
> Some might fear finding themmselves in communities resembling Hampstead on the Med, though.
> As the Spanish say, Sobre los gustos, no hay disputos.


.......Or as the French would put it A chacun sa merde! No offence meant to the good denizens of Essex - what Partner means are the kind referred to in Ian Dury lyrics as they usually take the p**s out of people like us and have a tendency to want to hit him when they had a drink or 18!


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## mrypg9

marion coward said:


> The current idea is that we should go all Saville Row and tailored like my old art school contemporaries Gilbert and George, but there's time fo change our ideas yet!
> 
> 
> Now there's a pair who have turned **** into gold.
> In more ways than one


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## Pesky Wesky

marion coward said:


> ****** the Basque in laws!
> 
> I quite agree!! It's the BILs and SILs that are more problematic I'd like to point out and not the amazingly active and in some ways liberal 84 year old MIL!
> 
> Out of interest, what is your business?
> 
> Like sooo many people in Spain I'm a freelance English teacher teaching at various companies in the area. However, I differ from a good number of those teachers in as much as I am qualified, I know what I'm doing, and I'm good!! (Well someone's got to say it, haven't they!!) A Spanish saying for you "No tiene/ tienes abuela" He/ You hasn't/ haven't got a gran - meaning you're singing your own praises 'cos normally it would be your grand mother who does it


+++


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## marion coward

Pesky Wesky said:


> +++


I got the RSA TEFL Cert in '89 and have taught EFL intermittently since then, along with all the other stuff I do. I guess that if/when we do end up in Spain, I'll end up teaching private TEFL once more to eke out the funds. Either that or washing up in some bar for ten hours a day and 100 Euros a week. I am an obsessive worker, which isn't bad in many ways as it won't allow any time or energy for regrets that I may have about moving to a place I may not feel at home in.


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## mrypg9

marion coward said:


> I got the RSA TEFL Cert in '89 and have taught EFL intermittently since then, along with all the other stuff I do. I guess that if/when we do end up in Spain, I'll end up teaching private TEFL once more to eke out the funds. Either that or washing up in some bar for ten hours a day and 100 Euros a week. I am an obsessive worker, which isn't bad in many ways as it won't allow any time or energy for regrets that I may have about moving to a place I may not feel at home in.


Well, it's very bad when you consider that Spain has the EU's highest unemployment rate, 20% + and rising and in some areas it's much higher. No prospect of real growth for a few years yet, according to economists (although like most of us they rely on guesswork and crystal balls or seaweed.
Bar work is very hard to come by as is any work which involves interacting with the locals until you have a good command of el idioma.
I don't know about teaching English....there is certainly a need in some areas where there are loads of immigrants requiring services. But you would prefer to stay clear of such areas.
I still think my Morrocco suggestion was best. Why not the former Spanish parts?
Then your OH can feel more at home.


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## marion coward

mrypg9 said:


> marion coward said:
> 
> 
> 
> The current idea is that we should go all Saville Row and tailored like my old art school contemporaries Gilbert and George, but there's time fo change our ideas yet!
> 
> 
> Now there's a pair who have turned **** into gold.
> In more ways than one
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As you might expect I beg to differ there, since I have an idea of the research and study that has gone into their work over the years in order for it to arrive at the stage it's at presently. After all, that's what art is about - making sense of your life and the world as you perceive it and externalizing that in some form showing development and continuity over a period of time. I could follow this by making unkind references to the kind of slop that passes for art in many off the beaten track places, but I wont 'cos Hell, I've also had to paint for money sometimes. It's just that I never confused that work with anything other than making a dollar - unlike a lot of folks who churn out endless trash in the name of art. This harks back to an earlier reference to charlatans and the South of France
> 
> Out of interest, are you and Sandra (?) EFL teachers too?
> 
> With ref to clothes I agree that about "alternative" and " mainstream" being invented concepts, but they are really verbal shorthand to explain concepts that would take a couple of paragraphs to describe. I guess you could call my style Charity Shop (+ Camden Market) ooooooooh and yes I love leopard skin too ( + the odd vertiginous heel), but i.m more vivian Westwood and Jean Paul Gaultier than Versace.
Click to expand...


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## marion coward

mrypg9 said:


> Well, it's very bad when you consider that Spain has the EU's highest unemployment rate, 20% + and rising and in some areas it's much higher. No prospect of real growth for a few years yet, according to economists (although like most of us they rely on guesswork and crystal balls or seaweed.
> Bar work is very hard to come by as is any work which involves interacting with the locals until you have a good command of el idioma.
> I don't know about teaching English....there is certainly a need in some areas where there are loads of immigrants requiring services. But you would prefer to stay clear of such areas.
> I still think my Morrocco suggestion was best. Why not the former Spanish parts?
> Then your OH can feel more at home.



Or I could end up being a Cha cha for people like yourself! But that would be stretching my Marge Simpson stoicism beyond it's limits I fear


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## gerrit

Pesky Wesky said:


> Gerrit is a member of the forum who lives in Barcelona. He hasn't been on recently, but if you pm him I'm sure he'd give you a few pointers, being an alternative kind of person himself. You can pm after 5 posts.




Well Marion, let's first tell you that I too dress mainly in black, have hair longer than some of my female colleagues and wear eyeliner 24/7. Still, I disassociate myself from the goth subculture despite listening to early goth music (Joy Division, early The Cure, Bauhaus, ... you get the picture) and despite some people probably thinking I'd be a goth.

Here in Barcelona you get some staring when you look different, but not that much. This is a very cosmopolitan city and people are used to a lot of different attitudes, appearances, lifestyles, ... The city is very diverse and so are its people. The main hassle you'll have is drunk youngsters shouting nasty things in the subways late night, but they're basically harmless 

I am a poet and have been performing with my poetry in several artsy places in the city. There are not an awful lot of them (this ain't Camden or Berlin...) but enough to keep you busy for sure. There's a bit of everything here, you just gotta dig a bit to find it. The artistic community is not huge but it's vibrant, vibrant enough that artists from other parts of the world seek a home here (even if this includes squatting prior to being able to live from their arts). And even some very famous artists moved here, Lydia Lunch, Manu Chao being two notorious examples. So for sure you'll find the arts community vibrant enough, although it requires a bit of searching which places cater your taste. But for sure it's an interesting city.

Expensive? Yes. But the nice part is that public transport from cheaper suburbian towns to the city is very well organised and cheap, and within the city the city center is the cheapest part because most of it are authentic old houses which need some maintainance. The good part of that is that it's the authentic part of the city where time stood still in terms of cityscape, and because the flats tend to be smaller and older than in uphill areas, they tend to be a bit cheaper. Still, in the city proper, 700 or 800 euro a month will be your minimum.

I can't answer your church questions, as I'm atheist myself. Weather here mainly means hot summers but a more generally European rest of the year. Granted, it won't snow here except rare occasions, and even in winter it won't freeze that often. But this is not a year-round summer destination, the only part of Spain that still has warm weather in winter are the Canary Islands. In Catalunya, winter temperatures will vary from 5 to just over 10 degrees celsius (although last winter was exceptionally cold -- hopefully a rare exception!)

Hope this answers part of your questions. About the artistic thing, I can for sure tell you arts is alive here. It was one of the reasons why I moved here. It's not as vibrant as in London or Berlin or so, but it's still quite diverse and active enough.


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## marion coward

gerrit said:


> Well Marion, let's first tell you that I too dress mainly in black, have hair longer than some of my female colleagues and wear eyeliner 24/7. Still, I disassociate myself from the goth subculture despite listening to early goth music (Joy Division, early The Cure, Bauhaus, ... you get the picture) and despite some people probably thinking I'd be a goth.
> 
> Here in Barcelona you get some staring when you look different, but not that much. This is a very cosmopolitan city and people are used to a lot of different attitudes, appearances, lifestyles, ... The city is very diverse and so are its people. The main hassle you'll have is drunk youngsters shouting nasty things in the subways late night, but they're basically harmless
> 
> I am a poet and have been performing with my poetry in several artsy places in the city. There are not an awful lot of them (this ain't Camden or Berlin...) but enough to keep you busy for sure. There's a bit of everything here, you just gotta dig a bit to find it. The artistic community is not huge but it's vibrant, vibrant enough that artists from other parts of the world seek a home here (even if this includes squatting prior to being able to live from their arts). And even some very famous artists moved here, Lydia Lunch, Manu Chao being two notorious examples. So for sure you'll find the arts community vibrant enough, although it requires a bit of searching which places cater your taste. But for sure it's an interesting city.
> 
> Expensive? Yes. But the nice part is that public transport from cheaper suburbian towns to the city is very well organised and cheap, and within the city the city center is the cheapest part because most of it are authentic old houses which need some maintainance. The good part of that is that it's the authentic part of the city where time stood still in terms of cityscape, and because the flats tend to be smaller and older than in uphill areas, they tend to be a bit cheaper. Still, in the city proper, 700 or 800 euro a month will be your minimum.
> 
> I can't answer your church questions, as I'm atheist myself. Weather here mainly means hot summers but a more generally European rest of the year. Granted, it won't snow here except rare occasions, and even in winter it won't freeze that often. But this is not a year-round summer destination, the only part of Spain that still has warm weather in winter are the Canary Islands. In Catalunya, winter temperatures will vary from 5 to just over 10 degrees celsius (although last winter was exceptionally cold -- hopefully a rare exception!)
> 
> Hope this answers part of your questions. About the artistic thing, I can for sure tell you arts is alive here. It was one of the reasons why I moved here. It's not as vibrant as in London or Berlin or so, but it's still quite diverse and active enough.


Thanks for getting in touch - I have visited Barcelona briefly and have an acquaintence who tries (without much success) to sell her range of clothing designs there. The thing that would put us off would be the cost of living , which was something we noticed when visiting before. Maybe the solution might be living just outside the city? I remember a vast sprawl of suburbs, so there would have to be somewhere not too far away.


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## mrypg9

marion coward said:


> mrypg9 said:
> 
> 
> 
> As you might expect I beg to differ there, since I have an idea of the research and study that has gone into their work over the years in order for it to arrive at the stage it's at presently. After all, that's what art is about - making sense of your life and the world as you perceive it and externalizing that in some form showing development and continuity over a period of time. I could follow this by making unkind references to the kind of slop that passes for art in many off the beaten track places, but I wont 'cos Hell, I've also had to paint for money sometimes. It's just that I never confused that work with anything other than making a dollar - unlike a lot of folks who churn out endless trash in the name of art. This harks back to an earlier reference to charlatans and the South of France
> 
> Out of interest, are you and Sandra (?) EFL teachers too?
> 
> With ref to clothes I agree that about "alternative" and " mainstream" being invented concepts, but they are really verbal shorthand to explain concepts that would take a couple of paragraphs to describe. I guess you could call my style Charity Shop (+ Camden Market) ooooooooh and yes I love leopard skin too ( + the odd vertiginous heel), but i.m more vivian Westwood and Jean Paul Gaultier than Versace.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, we do differ. I feel much so-called 'conceptual' art is facile, shows little true talent in terms of design, originality or execution and has become yet another arm of contemporary consumerism. As for making money from their 'art' - the Brit pack artists have made multi-millions churning out mindless trash for wealthgy patrons such as Charles Saatchi. Never I fear did Van Gogh turn over the cash this bunch of pseuds have done. As you rightly say: *I never confused that work with **anything other than making a dollar - unlike a lot of folks who churn out endless trash in the name of art*
> Whether it takes paragraphs or a book to explain, alternative and mainstream are as you agree concepts - again related to the fashion industry -a bit like art nowadays. There is alas no area of our lives that can be truly original and if by chance there were it would soon be commodified.
> What do I and Sandra do? Mercifully, nothing at present. She was the Director/Owner of two companies employing a total of twenty-five very butch men. I spent most of my life in education, teaching/translating, was Director of a Housing Association, involved in left of centre politics (we both were), stood for Parliament and the European Parliament, led a Labour Group on a District Council, was involved with my Trades Union NASUWT, sat on various TUC and DTI Committees concerned with employment rights and anti-discrimination law, was a member of a Steering Committee of Education International and after giving up full time work spent several years travelling backwards and forwards around Europe for my professional association.
> We decided to stop work when we realised we had enough money to do what we wanted - why go out to get more? - sold everything we possessed in the UK and Canada and left for Prague -I have spent a lot of time in various parts of Europe, as has Sandra, with whom I have lived for thirty years..We both have adult children.
> Now we're in Spain but it won't be forever.
> When I lived in London I was involved with various groups including the famous old Unity Theatre in Camden Town.
> I could go on but it would bore the a*** off you and others who have bothered to read this far...
Click to expand...


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## mrypg9

I forgot to mention.....we have a German friend, late forties, who lives in a shack in the campo with no electricity or running water. He dresses entirely in black the whole year and has dreadlocks of a mingled brown and orange hue almost to his waist. He gets plenty of work -as a carpenter - and I don't think anyone takes a second look at him.
We haven't seen him for a while which is why he didn't spring to mind....


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## marion coward

mrypg9 said:


> marion coward said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, we do differ. I feel much so-called 'conceptual' art is facile, shows little true talent in terms of design, originality or execution and has become yet another arm of contemporary consumerism. As for making money from their 'art' - the Brit pack artists have made multi-millions churning out mindless trash for wealthgy patrons such as Charles Saatchi. Never I fear did Van Gogh turn over the cash this bunch of pseuds have done. As you rightly say: *I never confused that work with **anything other than making a dollar - unlike a lot of folks who churn out endless trash in the name of art*
> Whether it takes paragraphs or a book to explain, alternative and mainstream are as you agree concepts - again related to the fashion industry -a bit like art nowadays. There is alas no area of our lives that can be truly original and if by chance there were it would soon be commodified.
> What do I and Sandra do? Mercifully, nothing at present. She was the Director/Owner of two companies employing a total of twenty-five very butch men. I spent most of my life in education, teaching/translating, was Director of a Housing Association, involved in left of centre politics (we both were), stood for Parliament and the European Parliament, led a Labour Group on a District Council, was involved with my Trades Union NASUWT, sat on various TUC and DTI Committees concerned with employment rights and anti-discrimination law, was a member of a Steering Committee of Education International and after giving up full time work spent several years travelling backwards and forwards around Europe for my professional association.
> We decided to stop work when we realised we had enough money to do what we wanted - why go out to get more? - sold everything we possessed in the UK and Canada and left for Prague -I have spent a lot of time in various parts of Europe, as has Sandra, with whom I have lived for thirty years..We both have adult children.
> Now we're in Spain but it won't be forever.
> When I lived in London I was involved with various groups including the famous old Unity Theatre in Camden Town.
> I could go on but it would bore the a*** off you and others who have bothered to read this far...
> 
> 
> 
> For the record - Gilbert and George cannot be classified as "Conceptual Artists" since they produce a tangible end result. However, they and their contemporaries, whom you describe as "Brit- pack", explore and research themes or concepts, which are interpreted in a physical way and in some form or other, be it painting, sculpture, collage, multi-media etc etc. My reference to the cack that is produced in the name of art stems from the worthies that I encountered in the South of France (and who probably also exist in the south of Spain). These self styled "artists" churn out tons of rubbish and are feted for it in their local communities. Art on a certain level is, I know, therapeutic, but I have spent a greater part of my life professionally encouraging and supporting the production of this type of work and I do not wish to be associated with it in my private creative life. What Saatchi collects is pushing boundaries and helping to establish the new directions of Art in the 21st century. He has a pivotal role and if it weren't for collectors like him I dread to think what would happen. To refuse artists their right to explore and diversify reduces the production of Art to a regurgitation of formulas that please because they are safely within the boundaries of what we know and understand......and we know what happens when that sets in - think Hitler and the official art of the Third Reich. I could go on ,but someone with your evident intelligence won't need me to.
> 
> Ah, the NASWUT. My union! A luxury I'm beginning to think I can't afford, but then I don't consider the NUT any better. So I shall ignore the lack of support and advice that I've received to date and keep on keeping on in the hope that they may prove themselves to be more than a colourful new year's diary + a stream of irrelevant emails. Incedently, what was your subject area and where did you teach? Ironical if we should actually have met in another life.
> 
> On a practical level, perhaps you can give me some information about the Spanish medical system. As partner has been extremely ill and relies on a programme of medication and continuous check ups, we need to know what the Spanish equivalent is like and if it's going to cost an arm and a leg as it would've in France.
> 
> Like the sound of your carpenter - at least visually anyway.
Click to expand...


----------



## Alcalaina

marion coward said:


> My reference to the cack that is produced in the name of art stems from the worthies that I encountered in the South of France (and who probably also exist in the south of Spain). These self styled "artists" churn out tons of rubbish and are feted for it in their local communities. Art on a certain level is, I know, therapeutic ...


As a self-styled artist turning out cack and feted for it in my local community, I feel a need to speak up!

There are for or five of us here, one of whom is teaching local kids to draw, and it has really helped us become part of the community - which as I have mentioned previously is a Spanish, not an ex-pat, community. They love the fact that we are inspired by their village and its inhabitants enough to want to paint them. It also marks us out from some other expats who, the locals believe, are only interested in drinking!

I detest elitism, whether it is applied to art, music or any other form of creative activity. Nobody has the right to say one thing is worthy while something else is crap. This attitude has stopped so many people from doing what they enjoy, because they think they aren't good enough.


----------



## jojo

.........I got an A* A-level art when I was 16 - I was considered very talented and went on to Art College!! I've also illustrated several books in my time !!!!! However, art is a personal non-objective thing. Its in the eye of the beholder. Its wrong to give it a financial or an aesthetic worth!

There, I just didnt want to feel left out!! LOL

Jo xxx


----------



## Alcalaina

jojo said:


> .........I got an A* A-level art when I was 16 - I was considered very talented and went on to Art College!! I've also illustrated several books in my time !!!!! However, art is a personal non-objective thing. Its in the eye of the beholder. Its wrong to give it a financial or an aesthetic worth!
> 
> There, I just didnt want to feel left out!! LOL
> 
> Jo xxx


Good for you! Are you still doing any these days?


----------



## jojo

Alcalaina said:


> Good for you! Are you still doing any these days?



No, my talent is for likenesses and portraits, so apart from setting up an easel along torremolinos seafront, there isnt much call for that sort of thing these days!! Altho perhaps harsh, I have to say I cant be bothered anymore LOL. I did draw my son a while ago......... but I've no real desire to persue it anymore!!?? Maybe one day......


Jo xxx


----------



## xabiaxica

jojo said:


> No, my talent is for likenesses and portraits, so apart from setting up an easel along torremolinos seafront, there isnt much call for that sort of thing these days!! Altho perhaps harsh, I have to say I cant be bothered anymore LOL. I did draw my son a while ago......... but I've no real desire to persue it anymore!!?? Maybe one day......
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


I'm having my family tree done & I just found out that my great grandad was a famous landscape artist

his paintings still sell at auction today apparently


I want to know who's getting the money for them















yes, I know I'm a philistine!!!


----------



## jojo

xabiachica said:


> yes, I know I'm a philistine!!!


Philistines rule!!!! My exhusband used to call me one all the time - he was a writer and author - I used to illustrate his books! 

Meanwhile life goes on !!!!

Jo xxx


----------



## xabiaxica

jojo said:


> Philistines rule!!!! My exhusband used to call me one all the time - he was a writer and author - I used to illustrate his books!
> 
> Meanwhile life goes on !!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


my dd would love to be able to draw/paint - but it seems the talent hasn't come down the generations


she is VERY musical though


I guess everyone has their own talent


----------



## jojo

xabiachica said:


> I'm having my family tree done & I just found out that my great grandad was a famous landscape artist
> 
> his paintings still sell at auction today apparently
> 
> 
> I want to know who's getting the money for them


Actually, thats a good point!!??????

Jo xxx


----------



## xabiaxica

jojo said:


> Actually, thats a good point!!??????
> 
> Jo xxx


presumably great grand-dad got it when he originally sold them


but I was sort of hoping for royalties!


----------



## Alcalaina

jojo said:


> No, my talent is for likenesses and portraits, so apart from setting up an easel along torremolinos seafront, there isnt much call for that sort of thing these days!! Altho perhaps harsh, I have to say I cant be bothered anymore LOL. I did draw my son a while ago......... but I've no real desire to persue it anymore!!?? Maybe one day......
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


Well, one of our group paints portraits from old photographs and has had several commissions - nice little earner for you one day, perhaps, should the need/urge strike!


----------



## Alcalaina

xabiachica said:


> presumably great grand-dad got it when he originally sold them
> 
> 
> but I was sort of hoping for royalties!


I guess once you sell a painting that's it, the buyer owns the resale rights. Unlike music or literature where the original creator can retain the copyright and get royalties when the work is reproduced. 

If GGD's paintings were turned into posters, on the other hand ....


----------



## mrypg9

marion coward said:


> mrypg9 said:
> 
> 
> 
> For the record - Gilbert and George cannot be classified as "Conceptual Artists" since they produce a tangible end result. However, they and their contemporaries, whom you describe as "Brit- pack", explore and research themes or concepts, which are interpreted in a physical way and in some form or other, be it painting, sculpture, collage, multi-media etc etc. My reference to the cack that is produced in the name of art stems from the worthies that I encountered in the South of France (and who probably also exist in the south of Spain). These self styled "artists" churn out tons of rubbish and are feted for it in their local communities. Art on a certain level is, I know, therapeutic, but I have spent a greater part of my life professionally encouraging and supporting the production of this type of work and I do not wish to be associated with it in my private creative life. What Saatchi collects is pushing boundaries and helping to establish the new directions of Art in the 21st century. He has a pivotal role and if it weren't for collectors like him I dread to think what would happen. To refuse artists their right to explore and diversify reduces the production of Art to a regurgitation of formulas that please because they are safely within the boundaries of what we know and understand......and we know what happens when that sets in - think Hitler and the official art of the Third Reich. I could go on ,but someone with your evident intelligence won't need me to.
> 
> Ah, the NASWUT. My union! A luxury I'm beginning to think I can't afford, but then I don't consider the NUT any better. So I shall ignore the lack of support and advice that I've received to date and keep on keeping on in the hope that they may prove themselves to be more than a colourful new year's diary + a stream of irrelevant emails. Incedently, what was your subject area and where did you teach? Ironical if we should actually have met in another life.
> 
> On a practical level, perhaps you can give me some information about the Spanish medical system. As partner has been extremely ill and relies on a programme of medication and continuous check ups, we need to know what the Spanish equivalent is like and if it's going to cost an arm and a leg as it would've in France.
> 
> Like the sound of your carpenter - at least visually anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't all artists, conceptual or not, produce a 'tangible end result'. If they didn't how could we be aware of its existence??
> I have visited many exhibitions, at the Tate, White Cube and elsewhere and I have on every occasion been struck by the shallowness and often sheer idiocy of what I have seen. What Saatchi does is make money. And that's what most contemporary British artists who have achieved any kind of success do. They are all multi-millionaires and have earned their money by impressing the easily impressed and media fashionistas who fondly delude themselves into imagining they live 'on the edge'.
> My dog has produced piles of turds, often deposited in the most imaginative way. Maybe I should photograph them, give them a suitably up-your-own-arse- title and send to Saatchi? I anticipate a large water bill...
> I don't paint, make music or write poetry - well, not since I was an adolescent, in the latter case. But I do have a reasonably wide knowledge of the arts scene both contemporary and historical and as you can tell I have strong views.
> As for G and G.....I suppose what I'm saying is that art nowadays represents the values and perceptions of people in the art market and the vision they want to promote and has little to do with the reality of what it purports to portray. . G&G's work is bourgeois, it is a simplistic bourgeois perception of a complex reality that doesn't get anywhere near the heart of the subject they attempt to portray. And it makes a lot of money for them, the gallery owners and the purchasers who buy such 'art works' in the same way that they buy stocks and shares.
> But as such I suppose you could say that much contemporary art faithfully represents our current society: empty, self-obsessed, superficial and ultimately concerned with price and not value.
> That's my philistine opinion anyway. Now ..over to you.
> As for my carpenter...I'm not so sure he is a very 'nice' person. He is a scrounger.
> Judge not by appearances....
> I taught in North London and East Anglia, my speciality is MFL.
> I'd stay with NASUWT but I'd say that anyway.
> If your partner is of retirement age he can transfer from the NHS to the Spanish health care system and receive free medical care. I've never had to experience it but I've heard it's excellent.
Click to expand...


----------



## mrypg9

jojo said:


> .........I got an A* A-level art when I was 16 - I was considered very talented and went on to Art College!! I've also illustrated several books in my time !!!!! However, art is a personal non-objective thing. Its in the eye of the beholder. Its wrong to give it a financial or an aesthetic worth!
> 
> There, I just didnt want to feel left out!! LOL
> 
> Jo xxx


And you were dressed in black when we last met.....


----------



## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> And you were dressed in black when we last met.....


Ah, but that's cos I'd put weight on (I've lost it again now) and black is supposed to be "slimming" and it was the only "posh" outfit I've got LOL!!! 

Jo xxx


----------



## mrypg9

marion coward said:


> What Saatchi collects is pushing boundaries and helping to establish the new directions of Art in the 21st century. He has a pivotal role and if it weren't for collectors like him I dread to think what would happen. To refuse artists their right to explore and diversify reduces the production of Art to a regurgitation of formulas that please because they are safely within the boundaries of what we know and understand......and we know what happens when that sets in - think Hitler and the official art of the Third Reich. I could go on ,but someone with your evident intelligence won't need me to.
> 
> .
> .


I'll tell you what would happen if there were no Saatchis. Art could perhaps cease to be considered as an investment. Talentless people who imagine they are 'cutting edge' because they use four-letter words or make art out of **** might have to earn their living as painters and decorators. We would be spared the childish and tiresome antics and productions of the likes of Tracey Emin.
Artists might once again learn to be craftsmen and women. People needn't be afraid of being patronised because their artistic tastes run to Jack Vetriano, 'tasteful' watercolours or portaraits of their dogs or grannies.
There's nothing truly alternative about an arts scene which is so closely tied up with the Establishment, whether in the form of a plutocrat like Saatchi or the arts critic of The Grauniad. It's all about money, loadsamoney. No coincidence the whole scene had its heyday in the Thatcher and early Blair years.


----------



## mrypg9

jojo said:


> Ah, but that's cos I'd put weight on (I've lost it again now) and black is supposed to be "slimming" and it was the only "posh" outfit I've got LOL!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


That's why I am often clad in 'slimming' black.....


----------



## mrypg9

Did you censor the Anglo-Saxon word I used for excremento, Jo, or is it automatic?
I just love what happens whenever I write 'S****horpe'.......


----------



## xabiaxica

mrypg9 said:


> Did you censor the Anglo-Saxon word I used for excremento, Jo, or is it automatic?
> I just love what happens whenever I write 'S****horpe'.......


OK - i know what you're putting in s****horpe - but what was the other one!!???




what I thought it was got through the sweary filter!!


****


edit - 
ahhh - got it!!!!


----------



## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> Did you censor the Anglo-Saxon word I used for excremento, Jo, or is it automatic?
> I just love what happens whenever I write 'S****horpe'.......


 Its automatic lol!!!! 

Jo xxx


----------



## gerrit

I cannot really read all these posts since I have stuff to do but let me respond to Marions question regarding the cost of living in Barcelona.

As I said, in the city proper you gotta count on minimum 700-800 euros for a 40 square meter flat which will be old and lacking some things such as airco, elevator, ... Anything larger will not be below 900 euro a month. The upside of this is that these "less expensive" houses tend to be in the center of the city, in the maze of little alleys that make up Ciutat Vella. So you are very central and with lot of artsy things going on.

The more newly built parts of Barcelona do have very modern houses, lifs, every facility you desire, ... and with the subway you are in the center in 10 minutes. However, the price tag here is usually above 1000 euro per month. 900 is the absolute minimum unless you somehow manage to find an exceptionally rare bargain (but in that case I'd wonder where is the catch)

You are right that suburbian towns such as Cornella, Hospitalet, Terrassa, Gava etc are usually cheaper. I live in the city proper so I don't dare to say exactly how much cheaper, but I do think you can get something for at least a 200 or more euro less than in the cheaper areas of the city. Public transport is excellent so it wouldn't take you much time to get into the city proper. The one question you need to ask is if you want to leave the bruising life of London and then settle outside of bruising Barcelona in a tiny suburb with not too much going on. That is a choice you gotta make for yourself.

You won't find many (if any!) artsy things in those suburbs, for that it is truly recommendable to live in the city center. But as I said, if you don't mind using public transport frequently then getting from those suburbs into the heart of Barcelona isn't such a hassle.


----------



## mrypg9

jojo said:


> Philistines rule!!!! My exhusband used to call me one all the time - he was a writer and author - I used to illustrate his books!
> 
> Meanwhile life goes on !!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


There's a good joke... I think it's good anyway.

A woman was in court charged with being drunk and disorderly in a synagogue. The judge said she was a philistine whereupon she replied that she was before she got married but she was now Phyllis Goldberg....

Well, it's funnier when you hear it told....


----------



## gerrit

As for the censorship, I recall a highly hilarious yet true article on how internet censorship filters always have flaws. When AOL entered the British market, people living in the town of Scùnthorpe (hope to bypass any filter with the accent ) could not sign up for their broadband because the filter didn't realise the foul word was just part of a name. 

The article also mentioned that another filter had a different system in which it replaced the "dirty" word with its proper variant. When US athlete Tyson Gay (that happens to be his real name yes) won a sprinting contest, the filter caused the hilarious newspaper title "Homosexual eases into the 100m finals" 

Also, there can be dramatic results when filters do fail. In Canada, a nature magazine that had existed for nearly 100 years was named after a local species, The Beaver. As this is also slang for the female private parts, the magazine noticed that their website got a huge number of hits of whom the majority browsed away after less then 10 seconds when the site appeared to offer different content than they expected. This ironic twist of fate forced the magazine to, after about 90 years of existance, change its name to (I believe but not 100 pct sure) "Canadian History" or something like that.


----------



## gerrit

One last thing, why do so many people pay attention to people dressed in black? What is so special about it? I have been dressing in black only for about 10 years now, just because I like it. No subcultural connection whatsoever. At least, not anymore. Why do people automatically link black clothing to being goth, metalhead or whatever? That's about as silly as thinking a person wearing all red must be a socialist or a person wearing dreads must be a reggae fan.

That said, I did dwell in the goth scene for years, but I strongly disassociate myself from it now as I realised soon enough that the true gothic subculture is dead or if not dead, comatose. Gothic had a second name as well, post punk. This was highly important because it indicates that, while goth had a darker undertone and angle, it shared a lot of social and political values and ideals with punk. It was a very idealistic movement. If you enter a "goth bar" right now you mainly see that especially the younger people see gothic as just a fashion style and music style, nothing more. Often they don't have a clue about what the real goth subculture was about and how it came into existance. Some of these youngsters believe that one cannot be a goth when not wearing black clothing, and some hold far right ideas. These two examples prove perfectly well that these self-proclaimed goths don't have a clue what they are talking about. A lot of them use silly internet nicks with terms as "vampire", "satan", "666" and similar in it. The real goth movement was relatively short-lived and had nearly died out. It lives on in our minds when listening to those early goth bands, but the movement itself did not survive the hands of time.



So I wonder why people immediately associate people wearing black with all kinds or subcultural movements. Yeah, I wear black and I wear make-up, just because I like it. But please don't associate me with those people visiting goth venues these days! I wonder why people generalise and make associations purely based upon a colour? The fact that the OP wears black should in fact be irrelevant if it weren't for the stereotypes in society that somehow survived...


----------



## jojo

gerrit said:


> One last thing, why do so many people pay attention to people dressed in black? What is so special about it? I have been dressing in black only for about 10 years now, just because I like it. No subcultural connection whatsoever. At least, not anymore. Why do people automatically link black clothing to being goth, metalhead or whatever? That's about as silly as thinking a person wearing all red must be a socialist or a person wearing dreads must be a reggae fan.
> 
> That said, I did dwell in the goth scene for years, but I strongly disassociate myself from it now as I realised soon enough that the true gothic subculture is dead or if not dead, comatose. Gothic had a second name as well, post punk. This was highly important because it indicates that, while goth had a darker undertone and angle, it shared a lot of social and political values and ideals with punk. It was a very idealistic movement. If you enter a "goth bar" right now you mainly see that especially the younger people see gothic as just a fashion style and music style, nothing more. Often they don't have a clue about what the real goth subculture was about and how it came into existance. Some of these youngsters believe that one cannot be a goth when not wearing black clothing, and some hold far right ideas. These two examples prove perfectly well that these self-proclaimed goths don't have a clue what they are talking about. A lot of them use silly internet nicks with terms as "vampire", "satan", "666" and similar in it. The real goth movement was relatively short-lived and had nearly died out. It lives on in our minds when listening to those early goth bands, but the movement itself did not survive the hands of time.
> 
> 
> 
> So I wonder why people immediately associate people wearing black with all kinds or subcultural movements. Yeah, I wear black and I wear make-up, just because I like it. But please don't associate me with those people visiting goth venues these days! I wonder why people generalise and make associations purely based upon a colour? The fact that the OP wears black should in fact be irrelevant if it weren't for the stereotypes in society that somehow survived...


Its not what you wear, its how you wear it!!

Jo xxx


----------



## marion coward

Alcalaina said:


> As a self-styled artist turning out cack and feted for it in my local community, I feel a need to speak up!
> 
> There are for or five of us here, one of whom is teaching local kids to draw, and it has really helped us become part of the community - which as I have mentioned previously is a Spanish, not an ex-pat, community. They love the fact that we are inspired by their village and its inhabitants enough to want to paint them. It also marks us out from some other expats who, the locals believe, are only interested in drinking!
> 
> I detest elitism, whether it is applied to art, music or any other form of creative activity. Nobody has the right to say one thing is worthy while something else is crap. This attitude has stopped so many people from doing what they enjoy, because they think they aren't good enough.


As previously stated, I've spent a lot of time encouraging people like yourself for the very reasons you state, but on the level of my own personal development I feel the need to be part of a community where I'm stretched and inspired. Continue to enjoy your work - it's a great hobby. I just happen to need something more


----------



## Alcalaina

gerrit said:


> One last thing, why do so many people pay attention to people dressed in black?


I love black clothes too, I dressed almost exclusively in black during my 30s (the 1980s) but in Andalucia it has one huge disadvantage - black absorbs heat! That's why so many of the houses are painted white.

It has also been pointed out to me that if all your clothes are the same colour you don't have to worry about things matching ...


----------



## marion coward

marion coward said:


> As previously stated, I've spent a lot of time encouraging people like yourself for the very reasons you state, but on the level of my own personal development I feel the need to be part of a community where I'm stretched and inspired. Continue to enjoy your work - it's a great hobby. I just happen to need something more


.......... And it seems quite clear to me that I'm not going to have that need met in the parts of Spain we're looking at, so it seems likely that a huge amount of compromise will be necessary on my part. Guess I shall just have to put my practicing christian hat on + grin and bear it


----------



## gerrit

Alcalaina said:


> I love black clothes too, I dressed almost exclusively in black during my 30s (the 1980s) but in Andalucia it has one huge disadvantage - black absorbs heat! That's why so many of the houses are painted white.
> 
> It has also been pointed out to me that if all your clothes are the same colour you don't have to worry about things matching ...


Yes, true, and also you don't need that much time choosing outfits when going clothing-shopping  For me, my appearance is all about personal expression and preference, but without subcultural connections. If someone wishes to think I am gothic or gay (both such assumptions have been made) because of how I look, so be it, the time that I wasted energy on convincing someone he's not right and that he's just stereotyping are long gone. 

In Turkey I saw many people wearing black clothing, even during the summer when even in Istanbul it can get just over 40 degrees. Besides, even with white clothing and shorts I can imagine it was still unbearable to be outside for long time, unless being at a beach or swimming pool...


----------



## marion coward

xabiachica said:


> I'm having my family tree done & I just found out that my great grandad was a famous landscape artist
> 
> his paintings still sell at auction today apparently
> 
> 
> I want to know who's getting the money for them




We all have to make decisions in life about where our priorities are - it's a shame your interest in Art has waned, Perhaps the demands of being a mum and wife were too time consuming and were for you more important than anything else. Art in it's broadest sense has been the motivating force behind my whole existence. I shall be in it's thrall until the end of my days and until I have produced a piece of art that I consider worthwhile I'll find the energy to go on, if only to keep experimenting. Perhaps you are moving towards a different kind of creative expression, particularly as your children seem to be growing up and are maybe not so time consuming. Ever tried writing? Quite a lot of writers currently working started out as artists, Margaret Atwood and John Updike being the only examples I can think of on the spur of the moment.


As for the money from your great grandfather's paintings, I'm not sure but I suspect that this kind of inheritance only goes back as far as grandparents. I'll check with my Man who for obvious reasons is quite informed about royalties and who get's what in circumstances like yours. If all else fails I have a friend who's ancestor was one of the artists linked to the Pre Raphaelite movement and he will certainly have an idea.

For some obscure reason, I'm informed that this message is too short - hope this does the trick. Out of interest, who was the painter?


----------



## jojo

marion coward said:


> We all have to make decisions in life about where our priorities are - it's a shame your interest in Art has waned, Perhaps the demands of being a mum and wife were too time consuming and were for you more important than anything else.


Art, for a good few of us means very little. Reality is infinitely more important! Life, family, children, living...... are all so much more important than creating or looking at pictures!!!

We all have our choices in life, as I said earlier, I was a very talented artist, but I gave it all up in a heartbeat because I wanted children and by then drawing and painting became boring and meaningless, I realised creating children and bringing up the next generation to be far more rewarding. I guess we're all different

Jo xxx


----------



## mrypg9

jojo said:


> Art, for a good few of us means very little. Reality is infinitely more important! Life, family, children, living...... are all so much more important than creating or looking at pictures!!!
> 
> We all have our choices in life, as I said earlier, I was a very talented artist, but I gave it all up in a heartbeat because I wanted children and by then drawing and painting became boring and meaningless, I realised creating children and bringing up the next generation to be far more rewarding. I guess we're all different
> 
> Jo xxx


And who decides what constitutes 'Art'? I think there is more pretentious nonsense written about art than any other subject. I prefer music and literature to painting or scupture but I can find satisfaction in any genre as long as whatever it is is accomplished with craft and is pleasing...to me. 
My IPod has on it the complete Wagner 'Ring' cycle, a lot of Mozart and Bach as well as the White Stripes, Shakira and Emmy Lou Harris. I like Puccini and the Pogues.
I've just finished reading a Wallender mystery, before that I reread J.S.Mill's 'On Liberty'.
My only regret is that what passes for art these days is nothing more than a commodity, a fashion accessory. What great art or 'concept' lies behind Tracey Emin's unmade bed? Why is her unmade bed worth several tens of £thousands and considered a work of art and mine isn't?
A case of the Emperor's New Clothes, I suspect.
I personally have no artistic talent whatsoever. It's not something I'll lose sleep over. It's given to few very fortunate people imo to be endowed with the skill, creativity and imagination to produce truly great works of art that give pleasure for centuries.
Will Tracey Emin, G &G, the Chapman Brothers et al be remembered for as long as and with the same affection as the known and unknown religious painters of medieval times?
Will Damien Hirst's bejewelled skull be revered as much as the Tiepolo ceilings?

I've just realised that what I've written could be derided as pretentious nonsense...


----------



## gerrit

jojo said:


> Art, for a good few of us means very little. Reality is infinitely more important! Life, family, children, living...... are all so much more important than creating or looking at pictures!!!
> 
> We all have our choices in life, as I said earlier, I was a very talented artist, but I gave it all up in a heartbeat because I wanted children and by then drawing and painting became boring and meaningless, I realised creating children and bringing up the next generation to be far more rewarding. I guess we're all different
> 
> Jo xxx


I think it comes down to choices in life. To me, art means everything and anything. I wouldn't want to be without it, both passively and creatively enjoying art. Reality for some means family and career, for others reality may include art. To just exclude art from the important reality is very over the top because it is nothing more than a personal opinion that is being written down as if it were a general fact with which everyone agrees.

Also, don't forget the very important role art has played in many events that helped societies change and evolve. A pen and well chosen words can often be the most powerful weapons.

If you happily gave up art because you wanted a family, very well and all respect to that. To exclude art from the reality of life however means that everyone would be thinking this way. I chose to remain childless because I have other priorities, for me raising a family is far from the reality of my life. 

This is not criticising you by any means, but only making a nuance that the reality of everyday life varies from person to person.


----------



## mrypg9

marion coward said:


> . Continue to enjoy your work - it's a great hobby. I just happen to need something more


Now I'm intrigued....why is Alcalaina's painting a 'hobby'......is 'hobby painting' not 'art'?

I can't paint at all and have never tried so it's all rather mysterious to me....


----------



## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> Now I'm intrigued....why is Alcalaina's painting a 'hobby'......is 'hobby painting' not 'art'?
> 
> I can't paint at all and have never tried so it's all rather mysterious to me....


I'm a good illustrator and painter!! I have been through college where I have looked inside the heads of many a "famous" painter, sculptor etc during my time - Why did he do this?, where was he when he did that?, how was he feeling?, what was he thinking? Why is this painting important? I've analysed paintings and why, how, who etc....blah, blah..... - and quite frankly, its all nonsense!

If I like a painting because it gives me a warm glow, or it reminds me of a happy time then I'll put it up on my wall or use it as a screen saver! The hype and the money involved in famous pieces of art, paintings, sculptures is all just a money spinner! It reminds me of "the Emperors New Clothes" - Someone important and looked up to says that something is valuable, so it is!! To me paintings etc are simply nice to look at if you have nothing better to do

Jo xxx


----------



## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> Now I'm intrigued....why is Alcalaina's painting a 'hobby'......is 'hobby painting' not 'art'?
> 
> I can't paint at all and have never tried so it's all rather mysterious to me....


I suspect a hobby painting is one you can look at and know immediately what it is!

If anyone is interested, you can see mine here:
Paintings by Alcalaina - a set on Flickr

I don't pretend it is anything other than a hobby. I don't do it for money, though I did sell a couple at the exhibition we had in the village. It is just something I always wanted to do but never had time for until I retired, and it makes me feel good when people like what they see.


----------



## mrypg9

jojo said:


> I'm a good illustrator and painter!! I have been through college where I have looked inside the heads of many a "famous" painter, sculptor etc during my time - Why did he do this?, where was he when he did that?, how was he feeling?, what was he thinking? Why is this painting important? I've analysed paintings and why, how, who etc....blah, blah..... - and quite frankly, its all nonsense!
> 
> If I like a painting because it gives me a warm glow, or it reminds me of a happy time then I'll put it up on my wall or use it as a screen saver! The hype and the money involved in famous pieces of art, paintings, sculptures is all just a money spinner! It reminds me of "the Emperors New Clothes" - Someone important and looked up to says that something is valuable, so it is!! To me paintings etc are simply nice to look at if you have nothing better to do
> 
> Jo xxx


Jo.....have you any more hidden talents to reveal??
I am constantly amazed at the skills and experiences you have.
And as a philistine I agree with what you posted above.


----------



## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> I suspect a hobby painting is one you can look at and know immediately what it is!
> 
> If anyone is interested, you can see mine here:
> Paintings by Alcalaina - a set on Flickr
> 
> I don't pretend it is anything other than a hobby. I don't do it for money, though I did sell a couple at the exhibition we had in the village. It is just something I always wanted to do but never had time for until I retired, and it makes me feel good when people like what they see.



Well, hobby or 'mission', I really like some of those paintings. TBH I don't like the animals or human paintings but those of places I like very much. I'd hang 'em on my wall - as long as you weren't asking Saatchi prices.....
We have just refurnished our salon and are looking for an abstract painting with colours to match our decor....how gross and philistine can you get??
We're thinking of a Paul Klee print so our grossness may have certain redeeming features....Paul Klee is ART...


----------



## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> Jo.....have you any more hidden talents to reveal??
> I am constantly amazed at the skills and experiences you have.
> And as a philistine I agree with what you posted above.


Me?? Talents??? Nah, I can draw, and I occasionally sing badly in my husbands band!!! Thats it for talents!! As for experience??? I've done a bit of nursing etc, but I've just had a hard life LOL!!!!

I've been looking on the internet for some of my book illustrations, but cant find any (I'm obviously not that famous lol)!!

The one book I can remember doing was with my ex-husband "The East Sussex Village Book" (summat like that) By Rupert Taylor! I did a couple of otherswith him as well, but I cant remember what they were called (A previous life)

Jo xxx


----------



## xabiaxica

jojo said:


> Me?? Talents??? Nah, I can draw, and I occasionally sing badly in my husbands band!!! Thats it for talents!! As for experience??? I've done a bit of nursing etc, but I've just had a hard life LOL!!!!
> 
> I've been looking on the internet for some of my book illustrations, but cant find any (I'm obviously not that famous lol)!!
> 
> The one book I can remember doing was with my ex-husband "The East Sussex Village Book" (summat like that) By Rupert Taylor! I did a couple of otherswith him as well, but I cant remember what they were called (A previous life)
> 
> Jo xxx


is this one??

Noise (Pelican): Amazon.co.uk: Rupert Taylor: Books


----------



## xabiaxica

or this one?The East Sussex Village Book (Villages of Britain) (Open Library)


----------



## jojo

xabiachica said:


> is this one??
> 
> Noise (Pelican): Amazon.co.uk: Rupert Taylor: Books



The East Sussex Village Book (Villages of Britain): Amazon.co.uk: Rupert Taylor, J. Heeley, Jo-Anne Heeley: Books

Ah, this is the one I was thinking of. I remember this one cos it was just beofre we divorced and one of the illustrations has our little girl in it, she was about 3yrs old (27yo now eeek!!) 

Jo xxx


----------



## xabiaxica

jojo said:


> The East Sussex Village Book (Villages of Britain): Amazon.co.uk: Rupert Taylor, J. Heeley, Jo-Anne Heeley: Books
> 
> Ah, this is the one I was thinking of. I remember this one cos it was just beofre we divorced and one of the illustrations has our little girl in it, she was about 3yrs old (27yo now eeek!!)
> 
> Jo xxx


I can't find the pictures either though!!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Alcalaina said:


> I suspect a hobby painting is one you can look at and know immediately what it is!
> 
> If anyone is interested, you can see mine here:
> Paintings by Alcalaina - a set on Flickr
> 
> I don't pretend it is anything other than a hobby. I don't do it for money, though I did sell a couple at the exhibition we had in the village. It is just something I always wanted to do but never had time for until I retired, and it makes me feel good when people like what they see.


Derelict window and abandoned cine.
I like them, and if they were places I knew, like you do - I'd buy them!


----------



## marion coward

jojo said:


> Art, for a good few of us means very little. Reality is infinitely more important! Life, family, children, living...... are all so much more important than creating or looking at pictures!!!
> 
> We all have our choices in life, as I said earlier, I was a very talented artist, but I gave it all up in a heartbeat because I wanted children and by then drawing and painting became boring and meaningless, I realised creating children and bringing up the next generation to be far more rewarding. I guess we're all different
> 
> Jo xxx


It's just as well that more people think like you and not me because the human race would've died out by now! Perhaps in the light of this you are the best person to ask about health care in Spain. How does it work and is there any expense involved, particularly if one falls within the senior citizen bracket?
I would never dare to call myself a talented artist - that's for others to decide. But I do what I do wholeheartedly, using all the skills that practice, education and experience have given me. My one consuming ambition in relation to my art is to produce work that will inspire others in some way.We are all here to contribute, each in our own way


----------



## xabiaxica

marion coward said:


> It's just as well that more people think like you and not me because the human race would've died out by now! Perhaps in the light of this you are the best person to ask about health care in Spain. How does it work and is there any expense involved, particularly if one falls within the senior citizen bracket?
> I would never dare to call myself a talented artist - that's for others to decide. But I do what I do wholeheartedly, using all the skills that practice, education and experience have given me. My one consuming ambition in relation to my art is to produce work that will inspire others in some way.We are all here to contribute, each in our own way


try putting_ health care_ into the search function & selecting 'Spain' & it comes up with lots of threads on the subject


here's a recent one

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/spain-expat-forum-expats-living-spain/59938-health-care-spain.html


there's also a 'sticky' at the top about it

have a good read then come back & ask any questions you still have!!


----------



## jojo

marion coward said:


> It's just as well that more people think like you and not me because the human race would've died out by now! Perhaps in the light of this you are the best person to ask about health care in Spain. How does it work and is there any expense involved, particularly if one falls within the senior citizen bracket?
> I would never dare to call myself a talented artist - that's for others to decide. But I do what I do wholeheartedly, using all the skills that practice, education and experience have given me. My one consuming ambition in relation to my art is to produce work that will inspire others in some way.We are all here to contribute, each in our own way



I'm not bragging and have spent years being modest and coy, but at my age, I'm passed worrying LOL. I only call my self a talented artist now cos I guess looking back, I passed all my exams early, I've always found it easy to achieve the look/likeness I've wanted to and people always seem to like what I've done???!! - its all subjective tho!!

As for health care, I think Chica has stated that there is a lot of information on the forum, so have a search. But basically, if you're here temporarily, then you need to have a EHIC (European health insurance card) which will cover you for a couple of years!! The one thing I will say is that your partner must make sure that his doctor/consultant who is looking after him MUST agree to him leaving the country and make sure you have some documentation stating his condfition, medication etc with you - should something awful happen when you're here!!

Jo xxx


----------



## marion coward

jojo said:


> I'm not bragging and have spent years being modest and coy, but at my age, I'm passed worrying LOL. I only call my self a talented artist now cos I guess looking back, I passed all my exams early, I've always found it easy to achieve the look/likeness I've wanted to and people always seem to like what I've done???!! - its all subjective tho!!
> 
> As for health care, I think Chica has stated that there is a lot of information on the forum, so have a search. But basically, if you're here temporarily, then you need to have a EHIC (European health insurance card) which will cover you for a couple of years!! The one thing I will say is that your partner must make sure that his doctor/consultant who is looking after him MUST agree to him leaving the country and make sure you have some documentation stating his condfition, medication etc with you - should something awful happen when you're here!!
> 
> Jo xxx



The thing with measuring artistic ability/talent seems to be that It's O.K to be able to speak the language (i.e have mastered all the techniques), but the real definition of quality, is what the message is. Even illustrators like ourselves( I've done the odd book/ magazine myself) need to approach their art from a distinct point of view which gives those who see the work a new dimension........ Quentin Blake for instance. Ultimately it's the statement that counts, which is why I think the drawings I did of architecture in Nice were far more relevant than all the murals I painted on the walls of restaurants and shops. The drawings were the beginning of a series of works through which I wished to show how the new constructions in Nice were eroding all that was characteristic of the area. A kind of visitors comment if you like.

Thank you Jo and everyone else for the thought provoking discussions on ex pat life in Spain. I'm far from convinced that it would be the right place for me, but ultimately I don't think I'll have much choice, as if my partner's health depends upon him being in Spain , then there will be no option. He is severely dyslexic and so adjusting to learning new languages, fitting in with new cultures is hard for him. In Spain, he has the advantage of the language + the experience of having lived there before. I'm hoping to be able to keep a foothold in London, my home town, but again that is dependent on money. 

From Monday, I shall be back at work so for the present it's hasta la vista to you all!


----------



## marion coward

jojo said:


> I'm not bragging and have spent years being modest and coy, but at my age, I'm passed worrying LOL. I only call my self a talented artist now cos I guess looking back, I passed all my exams early, I've always found it easy to achieve the look/likeness I've wanted to and people always seem to like what I've done???!! - its all subjective tho!!
> 
> As for health care, I think Chica has stated that there is a lot of information on the forum, so have a search. But basically, if you're here temporarily, then you need to have a EHIC (European health insurance card) which will cover you for a couple of years!! The one thing I will say is that your partner must make sure that his doctor/consultant who is looking after him MUST agree to him leaving the country and make sure you have some documentation stating his condfition, medication etc with you - should something awful happen when you're here!!
> 
> Jo xxx





Oh and just out of interest , how old are you? I'm 62 today!


----------



## donz

happy birthday! :cheer2:arty:

I have been reading this thread and thoroughly enjoying it!! Despite not being able to contribute it makes fab reading


----------



## jojo

marion coward said:


> Oh and just out of interest , how old are you? I'm 62 today!


Happy birthday or feliz cumpleaños!!! I'm 46 - going on 15 mentally and 99 physically lol!!!

Jo xxx


----------



## Alcalaina

marion coward said:


> Oh and just out of interest , how old are you? I'm 62 today!


Happy birthday - I'm 58 and I'm always relieved to find examples of intelligent life forms over 60!!


----------



## marion coward

donz said:


> happy birthday! :cheer2:arty:
> 
> I have been reading this thread and thoroughly enjoying it!! Despite not being able to contribute it makes fab reading


What makes this particular thread so interesting for you? There - and I said I wouldn't be able to answer any more as I have to prepare for the coming week! This kind of communication is worryingly addictive isn't it? ...............oh go on Donz - force yourself to contribute. You know you want to!


----------



## Caz.I

marion coward said:


> What makes this particular thread so interesting for you? !


Sorry to butt in but Happy Birthday also, and just to say I found it a very interesting read too - to hear two opposing views about art being debated so passionately and intelligently. It makes a change from the usual subjects on expat forums.


----------



## marion coward

jojo said:


> Happy birthday or feliz cumpleaños!!! I'm 46 - going on 15 mentally and 99 physically lol!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


 Gracias! I'm tempted to say that for me it's the other way round, i.e - I'm 62 , trying to go on 20 years less than that physically , but feeling ( at times) 99+


----------



## Caz.I

marion coward said:


> Thank you - we did rather get off the original point, which was my request for advice about moving to Spain, but conversations are like that aren't they?
> 
> I notice you live in Fuengirola, which I recall as a fairly large settlement along the coast from Malaga. I once had a friend whose parents had an estate agents business in Los Boliches just nearby.They also owned a rather lovely farm about 8 kilometers inland from the coast. I am trying to trace my friend out of curiosity and also because I have a strong presentiment that he is now dead. We split up because he was getting involved in hard drugs and I certainly didn't want to go there myself. The family was called Fussell - Tony and Maureen. Their daughter was Louise and the son, my friend , was named Julian. I'm aware that ex pat communities tend to circulate information about each other and wonder if you've been living there long enough to have come across these people. I would be so glad if you could dispel my fears and tell me that he and they are all well and have lived happily ever after. The problem is likely to be time, as the Fussells were resident in the mid to late 70s, which may be before your time. Mrs F would be about 75 now, but as for the rest of them, I couldn't say. Any information would be gratefully received.


Sorry Marion but I havent heard of your friends although I do live in Los Boliches, funnily enough. (Since the 70s Fuengirola has encroached on Los Boliches so much so that they are no longer separate.) Plus I am not really that close to the expat community here as such and I have only been here since 2003. However, I have a relative here who has been here since 87 (which is considered an aeon in expat terms). He also works in the property business, so will ask him if he has heard any of these names as he seems to knows most of the expats who are in the same business and who have been here a long time.


----------



## mrypg9

Caz.I said:


> Sorry to butt in but Happy Birthday also, and just to say I found it a very interesting read too - to hear two opposing views about art being debated so passionately and intelligently. It makes a change from the usual subjects on expat forums.



Back online after being cut off by useless ISP...back to telefonica/movistar....
Just a little anecdote...
A couple of years ago when we were living in Prague a Serbian friend invited us to a 'special art event' at a well-known gallery so off we went. The place was full of the usual suspects in the usual uniform...black polo necks, beards (the men) cords, leather jackets. . 
A young man dressed in a rather old-fashioned dinner jacker and black tie came in to the room holding a cello; he sat down and proceed to play a dirge-like 'melody'. On a small table in front of him was a vase with a single long-stemmed rose.
A young woman then appeared totally naked. Another young man appeared bearing a paint tray full of blue paint and a paint roller which he then used to daub the naked girl with the blue paint. All to the cello accompaniment.
When she was covered in paint the woman lay on a sheet which was placed before her and rolled on it.
All this was watched in a reverential hush, spoilt only by my OH who commented that the young man might need a brush to get in all the cracks and crevices. 
This remarked was received with frowns.
At this point we decided to go to the pub.
Next day, the art critic of Dnes wrote a long piece full of high-sounding words and phrases about the significance of the performance which was apparently an attempt to reproduce a similar event of a century or so ago by a group of Situationists.
I thought it was silly.......


----------



## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> Back online after being cut off by useless ISP...back to telefonica/movistar....
> Just a little anecdote...
> A couple of years ago when we were living in Prague a Serbian friend invited us to a 'special art event' at a well-known gallery so off we went. The place was full of the usual suspects in the usual uniform...black polo necks, beards (the men) cords, leather jackets. .
> A young man dressed in a rather old-fashioned dinner jacker and black tie came in to the room holding a cello; he sat down and proceed to play a dirge-like 'melody'. On a small table in front of him was a vase with a single long-stemmed rose.
> A young woman then appeared totally naked. Another young man appeared bearing a paint tray full of blue paint and a paint roller which he then used to daub the naked girl with the blue paint. All to the cello accompaniment.
> When she was covered in paint the woman lay on a sheet which was placed before her and rolled on it.
> All this was watched in a reverential hush, spoilt only by my OH who commented that the young man might need a brush to get in all the cracks and crevices.
> This remarked was received with frowns.
> At this point we decided to go to the pub.
> Next day, the art critic of Dnes wrote a long piece full of high-sounding words and phrases about the significance of the performance which was apparently an attempt to reproduce a similar event of a century or so ago by a group of Situationists.
> I thought it was silly.......


There's always one! (though it's usually me). 

Last year we had some "performance art" in the village, at our newly-opened Arts Centre (a former convent). A barefooted flamenco dancer paddled in some purple paint then danced on a white sheet. When she had finished the sheet was hung up on the wall. The air of reverence was dissipated somewhat when purple paint started dripping down the wall onto the brand-new polished wood floor. The sight of the mayor running round with a mop and bucket was far more entertaining than the dancer ...


----------



## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> There's always one! (though it's usually me).
> 
> Last year we had some "performance art" in the village, at our newly-opened Arts Centre (a former convent). A barefooted flamenco dancer paddled in some purple paint then danced on a white sheet. When she had finished the sheet was hung up on the wall. The air of reverence was dissipated somewhat when purple paint started dripping down the wall onto the brand-new polished wood floor. The sight of the mayor running round with a mop and bucket was far more entertaining than the dancer ...





But to be fair, we saw some excellent exhibitions of all kinds in Prague. My friend's partner is a well-known photographer, specialising in 'arty' photos which are rather gloomy but quite good, the kind you have to keep looking at, if you know what I mean. We went to quite a few photographic 'shows' via him.
When you were in NYC, did you visit the Frick Gallery? I really liked it, you can imagine someone actually living threre surrounded by all those paintings, sculptures and objets d'art.


----------



## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> But to be fair, we saw some excellent exhibitions of all kinds in Prague. My friend's partner is a well-known photographer, specialising in 'arty' photos which are rather gloomy but quite good, the kind you have to keep looking at, if you know what I mean. We went to quite a few photographic 'shows' via him.
> When you were in NYC, did you visit the Frick Gallery? I really liked it, you can imagine someone actually living threre surrounded by all those paintings, sculptures and objets d'art.


I didn't get to the Frick Collection, I was officially working and I spent most of my free time in the Met or exploring the bars and cafes round Greenwich Village. I will take a good look at the website later though.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

marion coward said:


> Oh and just out of interest , how old are you? I'm 62 today!


And I'm 50 tomorrow,
which I'm really happy about
HA
ha
ha...


----------



## jojo

Pesky Wesky said:


> And I'm 50 tomorrow,
> which I'm really happy about
> HA
> ha
> ha...


Happy birthday for tomorrow!! A Halloween baby!!! :cheer2::cheer2:

Jo xxx


----------



## Caz.I

Pesky Wesky said:


> And I'm 50 tomorrow,
> which I'm really happy about
> HA
> ha
> ha...


Happy birthday Pesky. Hope you have a nice day.


----------



## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> And I'm 50 tomorrow,
> which I'm really happy about
> HA
> ha
> ha...


----------



## marion coward

Pesky Wesky said:


> And I'm 50 tomorrow,
> which I'm really happy about
> HA
> ha
> ha...



Just a kid! Enjoy yourself and never let age be an excuse for not doing what you want to......


----------



## marion coward

mrypg9 said:


> Back online after being cut off by useless ISP...back to telefonica/movistar....
> Just a little anecdote...
> A couple of years ago when we were living in Prague a Serbian friend invited us to a 'special art event' at a well-known gallery so off we went. The place was full of the usual suspects in the usual uniform...black polo necks, beards (the men) cords, leather jackets. .
> A young man dressed in a rather old-fashioned dinner jacker and black tie came in to the room holding a cello; he sat down and proceed to play a dirge-like 'melody'. On a small table in front of him was a vase with a single long-stemmed rose.
> A young woman then appeared totally naked. Another young man appeared bearing a paint tray full of blue paint and a paint roller which he then used to daub the naked girl with the blue paint. All to the cello accompaniment.
> When she was covered in paint the woman lay on a sheet which was placed before her and rolled on it.
> All this was watched in a reverential hush, spoilt only by my OH who commented that the young man might need a brush to get in all the cracks and crevices.
> This remarked was received with frowns.
> At this point we decided to go to the pub.
> Next day, the art critic of Dnes wrote a long piece full of high-sounding words and phrases about the significance of the performance which was apparently an attempt to reproduce a similar event of a century or so ago by a group of Situationists.
> I thought it was silly.......


Just thought of a film that you would really relate to - ever seen Tony Hancock " The Rebel"? Check it out - you would find it meaningful


----------



## mrypg9

marion coward said:


> Just thought of a film that you would really relate to - ever seen Tony Hancock " The Rebel"? Check it out - you would find it meaningful


Ahh...we are on the same wave -length in some areas Films and humour perhaps, although I have 'low' tastes in comedy, Benny Hill, the mid-period 'Carry On' films and 'Allo Allo' being my ideal of perfection. As for 'serious' cinema: directors I like are Martin Scorsese, Baz Luhrman, Peter Weir, Andrej Wajda and Claude Chabrol.
Funny you should mention that Hancock film...I was thinking of it when I posted. Was it Juliette Greco with Tony Hancock? I remember well that scene where she sat with a row of identically clad 'beatnik' types. Do you remember the scene at the end where his statue disappeared beneath the waves?
You have spurred me into buying the film on amazon!! Thankyou.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Thanks everyone and apologies to Marion for hijacking the thread!
Yes, things could be worse, but I'm not embracing 50 with open arms. Got to 30 - no problem, 40 a doddle, 50 - Did anyone ask me if I wanted to be 50!!!???
Still, not a lot I can do about it I suppose.
OH will be 50 on the 2nd too, so to celebrate, or drown our sorrows, we went to a posh hotel the night, had a lovely dinner, slept like a log and had a massage in the morning and very nice it was too!


----------



## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> Thanks everyone and apologies to Marion for hijacking the thread!
> Yes, things could be worse, but I'm not embracing 50 with open arms. Got to 30 - no problem, 40 a doddle, 50 - Did anyone ask me if I wanted to be 50!!!???
> Still, not a lot I can do about it I suppose.
> OH will be 50 on the 2nd too, so to celebrate, or drown our sorrows, we went to a posh hotel the night, had a lovely dinner, slept like a log and had a massage in the morning and very nice it was too!


I refuse to contemplate birthdays - age is a number - but I'm glad you enjoyed a pleasant weekend
But remember....fifty is the new thirty


----------



## gerrit

I'll be 29 by this time next month. Sounds young but when you have been struggling for years and years you feel a bit older emotionally than you are physically. The worryless youth days when I had a whole life ahead of me and was full of plans, seem so very long ago. Also, for many people their twenties are the best time of my life, for me it was a struggle. So no, I won't celebrate this birthday, it just doesn't feel right (+ I hate parties)

There is something odd about birthdays anyways. Why celebrate that you have been born exactly X years ago? In fact it's a day just like any other. I guess commerce would even turn the day your garbage is picked up into a weekly festivity if it would lead to people buying gifts.


----------



## mrypg9

gerrit said:


> I'll be 29 by this time next month. Sounds young but when you have been struggling for years and years you feel a bit older emotionally than you are physically. The worryless youth days when I had a whole life ahead of me and was full of plans, seem so very long ago. Also, for many people their twenties are the best time of my life, for me it was a struggle. So no, I won't celebrate this birthday, it just doesn't feel right (+ I hate parties)
> 
> There is something odd about birthdays anyways. Why celebrate that you have been born exactly X years ago? In fact it's a day just like any other. I guess commerce would even turn the day your garbage is picked up into a weekly festivity if it would lead to people buying gifts.


Very true.....


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## valencia-hombre

jojo said:


> Rumour has it that the Canary Islands have the best all year round climate???? That said, I think its milder on mainland Spain than the UK, maybe we've become acclimatised?? It is jolly cold at night and there are frosts and snow, but during the day when the sun shines its nearly always quite pleasant!!?? The problem is that Spanish houses dont generally have damp courses, central heating, carpets or insulation. So it takes a while and a small fortune to get them warm and cosy! I moan like mad, cos I really feel the cold and I hate the winters!!
> 
> Jo xxx


Anywhere in spain is warm/hot when the sun is shining. when the sun isnt shining, coastal areas in particular can be bitter cold with winds. I have never been to the canary islands but i would take a guess that you'll need more than a thick coat scarf and gloves in the winter when the sun isnt shining and its windy. That i believe applies to any island anywhere in the world. I just done a search on google and found this sentence "The cold sea winds are other conditioning factors to the benign gran canarian climate"

TO a certain degree madrid is sheltered from winds by mountains.


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## Pesky Wesky

valencia-hombre said:


> Anywhere in spain is warm/hot when the sun is shining. True! My house has a north south orientation so I can sit out in the sun in the front, go inside, put on a jumper as I pass through the living room, open the double glazed patio doors and step into the winter wonderland otherwise known as the back garden!
> 
> TO a certain degree madrid is sheltered from winds by mountains. There is very little wind in Madrid, or at least in the non moutainous areas, but boy does it get cold here!!


***


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## marion coward

mrypg9 said:


> I refuse to contemplate birthdays - age is a number - but I'm glad you enjoyed a pleasant weekend
> But remember....fifty is the new thirty


..........or thirty is the new 50, depending on your mind set.


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## marion coward

Pesky Wesky said:


> ***


Partner lived in Plaza Mayor ( ? ) and said Madrid was bloody cold in Winter, hence not wanting to return there.


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## Alcalaina

marion coward said:


> Partner lived in Plaza Mayor ( ? ) and said Madrid was bloody cold in Winter, hence not wanting to return there.


This website might be useful for you: it gives average weather conditions by month for all cities and regions in Spain (and it's in English).

Standard climate Values: Madrid - Agencia Estatal de Meteorología - AEMET. Gobierno de España


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