# Citizenship: To be or not to Be



## Lovecheese (Dec 8, 2011)

I was born and raised in the US until I was 16 years old. When I turned 16, I moved to Canada and had a child at the age of 19. (Opps) My question is, would my son be considered an American Citizen as I was unmarried at the time of his birth and not married until I was 21 to his father?
The US sites for this info are somewhat hard to understand being he was born out of wedlock as they state. My other question is, how would they really prove I was in the states till 16 and how far would they really go to prove he was american as I have never registered him with the US. I would really prefer to keep him as canadian and not have him go through the hassel of dual citizenship, but what are peoples thoughts on the chances of him getting questioned later on?
I also plan on renouncing my US citizenship this coming year so all our contact with the US will be severed then.

Thanks


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## Auld Yin (Mar 10, 2009)

Lovecheese said:


> I was born and raised in the US until I was 16 years old. When I turned 16, I moved to Canada and had a child at the age of 19. (Opps) My question is, would my son be considered an American Citizen as I was unmarried at the time of his birth and not married until I was 21 to his father?
> The US sites for this info are somewhat hard to understand being he was born out of wedlock as they state. My other question is, how would they really prove I was in the states till 16 and how far would they really go to prove he was american as I have never registered him with the US. I would really prefer to keep him as canadian and not have him go through the hassel of dual citizenship, but what are peoples thoughts on the chances of him getting questioned later on?
> I also plan on renouncing my US citizenship this coming year so all our contact with the US will be severed then.
> 
> Thanks


At some point, presumably, your son will have to declare he was born in the USA. Lying on passport applications and the like is not recommended. He is not Canadian if he was born in the States and neither are you unless you've qualified and obtained Canadian citizenship.


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## Lovecheese (Dec 8, 2011)

Auld Yin said:


> At some point, presumably, your son will have to declare he was born in the USA. Lying on passport applications and the like is not recommended. He is not Canadian if he was born in the States and neither are you unless you've qualified and obtained Canadian citizenship.


No, he was born in Canada. I was born in the US. Therefore, thats why i feel like he is Canadian only. I moved to Canada when I was 16, obtained my Canadian Citizenship in which I got through my mother, and had my son in Canada when I was 19. His passport and Birth records are all canadian. I would never lie on things like that. Thats why I want to ensure he will not be considered a US citizen being as I was at the time of his birth, even though in Canada and not married. The US citizenship sites are tricky with their wording on it and being unmarried with children, my question was, how far would they go to determine if he is a citizen being as I was in states until 16.


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## 416 (Sep 20, 2011)

Lovecheese said:


> No, he was born in Canada. I was born in the US. Therefore, thats why i feel like he is Canadian only. I moved to Canada when I was 16, obtained my Canadian Citizenship in which I got through my mother, and had my son in Canada when I was 19. His passport and Birth records are all canadian. I would never lie on things like that. Thats why I want to ensure he will not be considered a US citizen being as I was at the time of his birth, even though in Canada and not married. The US citizenship sites are tricky with their wording on it and being unmarried with children, my question was, how far would they go to determine if he is a citizen being as I was in states until 16.



Did you become a Canadian citizen before or after your son's birth?


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

Lovecheese said:


> No, he was born in Canada. I was born in the US. Therefore, thats why i feel like he is Canadian only. I moved to Canada when I was 16, obtained my Canadian Citizenship in which I got through my mother, and had my son in Canada when I was 19. His passport and Birth records are all canadian. I would never lie on things like that. Thats why I want to ensure he will not be considered a US citizen being as I was at the time of his birth, even though in Canada and not married. The US citizenship sites are tricky with their wording on it and being unmarried with children, my question was, how far would they go to determine if he is a citizen being as I was in states until 16.


It's kind of sad, because people in the US expat groups overseas lobbied and fought long and hard for the "right" to transmit US citizenship - without ever realizing what a burden it would become. (I only say that because I know some of the people who led the fight back in the 1970's.)

In your case, your child appears to be American from birth, based on the fact that you had US citizenship at the time of the child's birth and had lived in the US for at least one year prior to the child's birth. Now, claiming that citizenship is another story altogether, since it's kind of unlikely anyone would have reason to "notice" that your child is a US citizen unless the child himself went through the motions to claim his nationality. 

He was born in Canada - and would normally be presumed to be a Canadian citizen until and unless he has reason to produce a birth certificate that indicated the nationality of his parents at the date of his birth. (They sometimes ask for that when you go to take a new nationality - but that's the only time I've ever known of anyone to ask about your parents' nationalities.)
Cheers,
Bev


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## Peg (Sep 22, 2011)

My interpretation of this information from Acquisition of U.S. Citizenship by a Child Born Abroad is that your child might not be a US citizen because you did not live in the US for the 1 year prior to his birth (underline emphasis is mine). Depends on whether "prior" means "ever" or "immediately before":

*Birth Abroad Out-of-Wedlock to a U.S. Citizen Mother:*
A person born abroad out-of-wedlock to a U.S. citizen mother may acquire U.S. citizenship under Section 309(c) of the INA if the mother was a U.S. citizen at the time of the person’s birth and if the mother was physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year prior to the person’s birth. The mother must be genetically related to the person in order to transmit U.S. citizenship.


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## 416 (Sep 20, 2011)

Bevdeforges said:


> In your case, your child appears to be American from birth, based on the fact that you had US citizenship at the time of the child's birth


To a certain extent it has to do with Lovecheese's intention when she took her Canadian citizenship oath.

A question came up on the tax board about the backdated CLNs which some people were requesting based on frex. having become a Canadian citizen in the 1970s. It's not clear how, if granted, it would affect the citizenship status of children born after the expatriating act. 

To take an imaginary case:

1969: USC moves to Canada, becomes a naturalized Canadian
1970: Child is born in Canada to USC
1995: Child gets a US passport, goes to work in the US
2011: Parent gets a CLN backdated to 1969
2011: Where does that leave the child's USC status?


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## Peg (Sep 22, 2011)

Still finding it odd that there is even a distinction for "out of wedlock"...


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## 416 (Sep 20, 2011)

Peg said:


> Still finding it odd that there is even a distinction for "out of wedlock"...


Well, yes. (and the law treats the potential citizen quite differently if the USC parent was the father or mother).

If the banks were going to screen for USC status really accurately for FATCA, they'd have to ask clients about their parents' marital status at birth, among other things. I'm sure they're looking forward to that -


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## Peg (Sep 22, 2011)

416 said:


> Well, yes. (and the law treats the potential citizen quite differently if the USC parent was the father or mother).
> 
> If the banks were going to screen for USC status really accurately for FATCA, they'd have to ask clients about their parents' marital status at birth, among other things. I'm sure they're looking forward to that -


And whether the parents visited the US a cumulative of 24 months after the age of 14 but prior to the child's birth...


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## 416 (Sep 20, 2011)

Peg said:


> And whether the parents visited the US a cumulative of 24 months after the age of 14 but prior to the child's birth...


"Hello? Hello?"


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

Gang, I do think you're overthinking this one. 

I was also surprised to see the difference between the status of a child born "out of wedlock" vs. one whose parents were married. But even given those differences, if US citizenship depends on the status of one's parents, it's highly unlikely that anyone would notice the US affiliation - certainly outside the US, but even inside the US, only if the person concerned were asserting their US citizenship for themselves.

I've known a few cases over here (in France) where kids who *wanted* to claim their US nationality had to present evidence that their US parent had lived the appropriate period of time in the US (after the age of 14 or whatever) and that isn't the easiest thing in the world to prove.

For those born outside the US, it should be relatively easy to simply assert that you have no idea how long your US parent did or didn't live in the US. No US agency is going to dig into the evidence to prove you wrong or right.
Cheers,
Bev


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## Lovecheese (Dec 8, 2011)

It's really mind boggling trying to figure it all out. You have all made valid points and while I am not trying to cheat the system, I really dont want to put my son through all this garbage if I dont have to. I read that same article on the site about children "born out of wedlock" and it really isnt all that clear as to their definitions of time and what they mean by it. Technically, I was in Canada for 3 years prior to his birth so to me, he is canadian. I would find it hard to believe they would spend thousands of dollars trying to figure out by looking thorugh my old school records or whatever it may be to find out if my son is American. But, who knows what the future will bring I guess with all this and new technology.


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## Lovecheese (Dec 8, 2011)

Bevdeforges said:


> Gang, I do think you're overthinking this one.
> 
> I was also surprised to see the difference between the status of a child born "out of wedlock" vs. one whose parents were married. But even given those differences, if US citizenship depends on the status of one's parents, it's highly unlikely that anyone would notice the US affiliation - certainly outside the US, but even inside the US, only if the person concerned were asserting their US citizenship for themselves.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that Bev, thats kinda what I was thinking but then the fear inside me from all this new happenings as made a deep gut wrenching feeling in my stomach with what the US is capable of and what they will do in the future. But I do agree, it would be a long process to prove anything about my case and I'm sure they have better things to do. (I would hope)


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## Peg (Sep 22, 2011)

416 said:


> "Hello? Hello?"


That "cumulative 24 months after the age of 14" was from the US Government!

Not sure if he meant it that my kids could choose to be US citizens based on that but either way I found it ridiculous.


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