# Surinder Singh and employment in Ireland



## Mecman (Oct 9, 2014)

Hi, can anyone tell me what happens regarding Surinder Singh if you can't find employment? 

I am from the UK but have spent 20 years in New Zealand. (the last time I was in the UK was 1999) I have moved to Ireland with my British children and my New Zealand wife. We have both registered for tax, are renting a house and the children will be educated here. We homeschooled in NZ and plan to continue here in Ireland.

I will be seeking employment as soon as my tax number comes through. My concern is that if I can't find a job here, will I still be able to apply via the Surinder Singh route if I have been claiming unemployment? Or is having a job here in Ireland an absolute must? 

Cheers


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## nyclon (Apr 3, 2011)

You have to be exercising economic treaty rights, that means you have to be employed or self-employed.


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## sophimari (Dec 6, 2012)

You must show that you have an income to support your family until the visa comes through. Whether it be as an employee or self-employed, the H.O. need to see monies deposited from work into your bank account sufficient enough not to ask for any support from the government.
Also as you work enough time beforehand you must supply the H.O. with proof of your income and national insurance contributions.


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## Mecman (Oct 9, 2014)

Ok two scenarios

1, What if I cant find employment and want to use Surinder Singh so I can try and find work in the uk? Lets say after 6 months of trying to find work. The centre of my life will still be in Ireland.

or

2, the employment I get does not earn enough money and I require assistance to cover the shortfall.

The way I read it you only have to prove that the "centre of your life" is in Ireland, eg no home or job in uk to fall back on. I have come straight to Ireland from NZ and not been to Uk.


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## Crawford (Jan 23, 2011)

The "centre of life" idea includes having a job and paying taxes in the EU country you are now living in outside of the UK.

Claiming unemployment or "assistance" in your new country will not make you eligible for obtaining an EU family permit for moving to the UK.


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## sophimari (Dec 6, 2012)

Register yourself as self-employed in your profession. Give your work a name, make flyers and business cards and get a receipt for them. You dont have to.pay to register. Doesnt matter whatever your work is just register as S.E. After 6 months you will receive your nat. Ins. Contr where you will pay something like £70.00 keep the payment receipt. Ever week or month deposit funds into your account. Also you will need a chartered accountant to do your accounts as preferred requirement by H.O.


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## Mecman (Oct 9, 2014)

Hi, Just to clarify. Im on an information gathering exercise as a back up plan if I can't find work in Ireland. The law states "Centre of Life" has to be moved to an Eu state. It does not state that I have to earn X amount of money to prove this.

Example, If I was retired and I move my life to Ireland and live there, my wife gets a 4EUFAM card under sufficient funds rule then why can't Freedom of travel and live in Uk apply.

Example, what if I was a student studying in Ireland?

Do these things mean I'm discriminated against because I don't have employment


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## nyclon (Apr 3, 2011)

Mecman said:


> Hi, Just to clarify. Im on an information gathering exercise as a back up plan if I can't find work in Ireland. The law states "Centre of Life" has to be moved to an Eu state. It does not state that I have to earn X amount of money to prove this. Example, If I was retired and I move my life to Ireland and live there, my wife gets a 4EUFAM card under sufficient funds rule then why can't Freedom of travel and live in Uk apply. Example, what if I was a student studying in Ireland? Do these things mean I'm discriminated against because I don't have employment


If you're a student you're not exercising economic treaty rights. As I said, to do that you must be employed or self-employed.


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## sophimari (Dec 6, 2012)

You can only do it through employment either with an employer or self-employed. You have to prove sufficient income every month in your account including national insurance contr, also enough income and funds to prove to the government that you wont be asking for any financial support. At least 6 months as self-employed or 3 as an employee. Its hard but if you have children too they need the financial proof you can support your family.


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## _shel (Mar 2, 2014)

Mecman said:


> Hi, Just to clarify. Im on an information gathering exercise as a back up plan if I can't find work in Ireland. The law states "Centre of Life" has to be moved to an Eu state. It does not state that I have to earn X amount of money to prove this.
> 
> Example, If I was retired and I move my life to Ireland and live there, my wife gets a 4EUFAM card under sufficient funds rule then why can't Freedom of travel and live in Uk apply.
> 
> ...


 You wont be discriminated against. The whole point of freedom of movement and family permits is for the 'Freedom of Movement of Workers' not freedom of students or those on the dole. To get residence in the UK EU members need to prove they are exercising economic treaty rights by being employed in the UK. British people who want to use the EU route need to prove they were exercising economic treaty rights in another EU country to get the family permit. No discrimination, both being asked fir the same thing.


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## albat (Sep 11, 2014)

I have no idea about Surinder Singh and the industry. I know about Surinder films in India, but I am not sure that both of these are same.


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## sophimari (Dec 6, 2012)

Surrinder Singh is a man who had a case named after him by the Home Office regarding his application for visa.


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## Hertsfem (Jun 19, 2013)

LOL is he in Bollywood now?


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## Mecman (Oct 9, 2014)

Hi Ive read the UK govt pdf's on this subject and none say you have to earn X amount, they just say I have to be an "habitual resident of Ireland" This definition just means working, it does not say anything about earning enough to fully support my family. 


All my children have UK passports. I can actually go to uk today with them and claim a house, dole, family assistance end every other benefit under the sun, but I cant bring my Commonwealth wife with me to look after our children so I can be free to work. Hahaha


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## Pallykin (Mar 30, 2014)

Surinder Singh is a woman.


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## Hertsfem (Jun 19, 2013)

Pallykin said:


> Surinder Singh is a woman.


Thanks, not that it makes any difference


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## Hertsfem (Jun 19, 2013)

Mecman said:


> Hi Ive read the UK govt pdf's on this subject and none say you have to earn X amount, they just say I have to be an "habitual resident of Ireland" This definition just means working, it does not say anything about earning enough to fully support my family.
> 
> 
> All my children have UK passports. I can actually go to uk today with them and claim a house, dole, family assistance end every other benefit under the sun, but I cant bring my Commonwealth wife with me to look after our children so I can be free to work. Hahaha



Well if you truely think you can fly to the UK, claim a house, dole, family assistance and every other benefit under the sun than be my guest. Once you accomplish this please let us know how it's done!

Why don't you just buckle down and get on with it like the rest of the people on here? Your sense of entitlement sucks if I may say so.

You could always stay in NZ you know


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## Mecman (Oct 9, 2014)

That was written tongue in cheek 

The whole reason the uk govt has implemented these rules is because eu citizens are claiming benefits in the uk without working. If the rules are you cant claim benefits then what difference does it make if my wife comes with me or not?

I fully intend on staying in Ireland for a few years and working I'm just after a back up plan if things don't work out.

There is no entitlement on my behalf I have always worked and always will do.


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## _shel (Mar 2, 2014)

So stop stressing about the what ifs, just get on with your plan you will find a job. Any job will do, cant remember the exact wording but it says it should not be trivial ie you cant get a 5hr job on minimum wage, but a full time job on min wage would be fine as its not trivial, its what 90% of society survive on! 

You not planning on enrolling the kids in school at all, not even for social stuff 1 day a week? That would go a long way to proving integration into life there. 

Other things you can do are church going if religious, getting the kids into groups and classes, you or wife joining clubs, societies etc. 

If you are planning on staying there years it shouldn't matter because of course the centre of your life would be there after years. Though if you were looking to make it more like a year or less it is very important. 

BTW, no dole for you. Apart from the new rules which mean you cant claim for 6 months for most payments or 5 years in the case of disability. You also need to pass the habitual residence test which would be quite hard to pass quickly especially if you dont have your family with you  
Those rules apply to any new residents including EU and British citizens. Funnily you would probably qualify in Ireland for welfare quicker under EU rules than in the UK.


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## sophimari (Dec 6, 2012)

Pallykin said:


> Surinder Singh is a woman.


Sorry but Surinder is a man....

In her reckless pursuit of lower immigration to the UK, Theresa May put UK citizens and settled people in a far less privileged position than EU nationals living in the UK. The rule changes Ms May implemented last year also meant that UK citizens living in other EU countries had more rights than if they lived in the UK. But thanks to a certain Mr Singh, they not only have more rights elsewhere in Europe, but they can bring them back to the UK under certain conditions. On the blogs and in the facebook groups of people affected by the family immigration rules, Surinder Singh has become a buzz word.

Surinder Singh himself was an Indian national working in Germany who married a British national who also worked there. They moved to the UK together, but the marriage broke down. Surinder was refused indefinite leave, then became an over stayer and deportation proceedings were initiated. In appealing against the proceedings it was argued that as his wife was a European citizen he should have originally been granted settlement rights, not the one year visa.*In winning this case, in 1992, a legal precedent was set.

Bags

Now, twenty one years later we see people packing their bag

- See more at: Surinder Singh and Family Unity | Joint Council for the Welfare of Immigrants


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## Mecman (Oct 9, 2014)

Thank You Sophimari

This is the sort of info I'm looking for.


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## sophimari (Dec 6, 2012)

I went through this process and it took its time as our lawyer was applying under british law whereas ait should of been under european law since i excercised treaty rights in another european country. 
I had to show so so many documents etc
But worth it in the end


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## Mecman (Oct 9, 2014)

Hi, Did you use a dedicated immigration lawyer and was it expensive? And did you apply from inside the UK or did you do it from the EU country prior to entering UK?


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## sophimari (Dec 6, 2012)

My lawyer said he was specialising in immigration and visas but that was not true as it took us 3 yrs to get the visa. In the end the H.O. got so fed up with the vack and forward that it was them who wrote and told him that we have to apply under Surinder Singh. 
We downloaded tge application form , filled it in and just sent it to him with new documents so that he reapplies. Within 3 months visa came through. It cost £2.300 but many people told us it was too much.

If you do go through a lawyer find out firstly if he really does specialies in immigration and visas and question him thoroughly and dont do the mistake that we did and pay upfront everything.


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## Mecman (Oct 9, 2014)

Thank You 
I've read that you have to write Surinder Singh on top of the application form, Did you do this?


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## sophimari (Dec 6, 2012)

No not at all. In the application form itself you will see sections and I think Surinder Singh section is either 5 or 7 or 8. Cant remember sorry.

Basixally you just fill it in.


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## _shel (Mar 2, 2014)

I thought there was a new form for SS applications now?


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## sophimari (Dec 6, 2012)

We downl9aded the normal EEU 2 form and inside was the specific sectiin.


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