# newspaper article about phasing out paper driving licences in the Uk



## concertina (Oct 18, 2012)

I saw an article about the phasing out of paper driving licences in the UK,its in the Independent newspaper Monday April 27 2015,to be gone by June 8 this year.They talked of possible difficulties initially when hiring vehicles abroad as the system will have some teething problems at the start.


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## kefvmr05 (Sep 25, 2012)

Shouldn't be a problem as I have never been asked for the paper part of my licence so as long as you have the plastic card type there should be no problem. I think


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## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

But the problem occurs if your plastic part is out of date and you go to the UK and want to hire a car there. 
I have had to apply for a Cyprus driving license as my plastic part ran out and I often go to the UK to see my mum and without the plastic part I cant hire a car.


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## OldPro (Feb 18, 2015)

There may be an obvious answer Veronica but I would ask why you haven't got a new plastic 'part' on a visit?

I used to renew my Canadian license for example, when I would visit Canada. 

As for 'teething problems' when hiring abroad Concertina, just what kind of teething problems do they anticipate? You show up at a car rental in country X and they ask to see your license. You show it, they're happy. Where's the problem? 

I never understood why the UK continued to have that ridiculous paper license when they started issuing a plastic one in the first place. I've had a plastic Canadian license for at least 30 years now. When they first issued them, the old paper license disappeared which would seem to make sense.


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## Brisargr (May 10, 2014)

The paper part of the UK licence is the only place where convictions and restrictions are listed. It is now a simple process involving obtaining a code prior to your journey which you give to a car hire company and this enables them to access your details on-line.

Current EU law permits you drive in another EU country on your existing licence without having to change it for a country of reisdence type. However, this is only for the duration of that licence (currently 10 years for UK). Therefore if your licence has expired and you have not applied for new one in country of residence, you are driving without a licence. In Greece they are now linked directly to the UK DVLA and can check immediately.


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## Brisargr (May 10, 2014)

Hi Veronica

Please see my post below regarding UK paper licence part. How does this affect your Cyprus plastic licence? How does Cyprus record any driving offences?

Kind regards

Brian


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## OldPro (Feb 18, 2015)

Brit drivers are treated as second class drivers by car rental companies because they CAN be Brisargr.

When I arrive in the UK, Greece, or any other country and want to rent a car, all I show them is my Canadian plastic driving license. It contains and gives them acess to NO information regarding any 'driving offenses' I may have had. I do not have to have any kind of 'code' prior to my journey to give to a rental company.

So what Brits should be asking themselves is why they get treated like second class drivers.

What the UK government should have done when phasing out the paper 'part', is also do away with providing information on 'driving offenses'. But my guess is that UK insurance companies wanted that kept available to them. In turn, car rental companies knowing it is available also want to access it. They can't access mine, why should they be able to access yours? 

Don't blame car hire companies, blame the UK government.

You see that information on the paper 'part' as being normal, I see it as being completely abnormal. As long as Brits see it as normal, they will not see that they are being given second class treatment.


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## Brisargr (May 10, 2014)

Hi Oldpro

It seems that your original answer has appeared and your second one gone?

It is my understanding that all Canadian states offer an online site, accessible by hire companies (for a fee) to check the validity of a livence and the number of demerit ponts. This is surely the same as UK (now), exept the data protection act in the UK requires prior authorisation before such interogation can take place.

An example of the Canadian service is the Quebec state where under who can use the service it specifically states -"Anyone who wants to lend or rent a vehicle to another person." All for $1.65 per consultation.

If a hire company does not wish to make such checks, and their insurance company is happy to accept all risks such as someone who is disqualified, so be it. Equally they could be making checks without you actually knowing via the online srvices.

I am aware that such online services are available for Germany, Italy and France so rather than being 2nd class drivers I feel we are now aligning with most other countries.


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## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

OldPro said:


> There may be an obvious answer Veronica but I would ask why you haven't got a new plastic 'part' on a visit?
> 
> I used to renew my Canadian license for example, when I would visit Canada.
> 
> ...


Without a current UK address I am no longer eligible for a UK license. Once the existing UK license expires you have to get one from your country of residence.
My new Cypriot license is an international license so I can drive anywhere.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

OldPro said:


> There may be an obvious answer Veronica but I would ask why you haven't got a new plastic 'part' on a visit?
> 
> I used to renew my Canadian license for example, when I would visit Canada.
> 
> ...


that's illegal

it's only legal to renew a licence in the country in which you are legally resident

so that would be why Veronica didn't get a 'plastic part' while visiting the UK

& you were driving illegally if you were using a licence which you acquired in Canada if you were resident in a different country - that licence was invalid


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## OldPro (Feb 18, 2015)

Yes Brisargr, that makes sense. That they can access my record is news to me. Obviously, prior to the internet, they could not do so and so did not do so. Whether any rental company does now or not, who knows.

I still think the new UK system is a pretty poor system from the driver's viewpoint. I wouldn't care about privacy if the alternative was the nonsense Brit driver's now have to put up with.

By the way, Canada has Provinces, not States and most Canadians would not appreciate you getting it wrong. It would be like me asking you if you had an Irish accent. A faux pas as they say.

Veronica, how you choose to handle your driving license is up to you. I always maintained a Canadian address for various reasons. So on a visit it was a simple trip to a local license office and I had a new photo license.

What is an 'Cypriot international license'. I am not aware that any license from any country is an international license. In fact, I'm quite sure, no such thing exists. Are you referring to having both a Cypriot license and an International Driving Permit (IDP) which is simply a translation into various languages of an existing driving license. 

Your Cypriot license does not give you the right to 'drive anywhere'. Each country you visit extends you the courtesy of allowing you to drive if you have a valid license from another country such as Cyprus. The same applies to my being allowed to drive in Cyprus, Greece, the UK or anywhere else, with my valid Canadian license. My Canadian license is not a Canadian international license. No such thing exists.

Xabiachica, what's illegal? Anyone can have residency in more than one country. What you seem to be referring to is your legal domicile. Anyone can choose where they wish to be 'domiciled' whether they are resident there or not. Please read here for an explanation.
https://www.sunnet.sunlife.com/file...name_-_Residence_citizenship_and_domicile.pdf

I have been resident in various countries while domiciled in another. What you cannot generally do is hold more than one driver's license legally at any given time. But even that is not carved in stone. Read here for an example of where Canadians often hold a second license legally. Non Residents Drivers Licence - Bird Talk - Questions and Answers - Canadian Snowbird Association

If you take up residency in a place, they each have their own law as to how long you can drive on a foreign license. In Ontario, Canada, it is 60 days. In the UK, it is one year. If you leave and return what then? You can declare you are resident wherever you are and as easily declare you are no longer resident when you leave for a while. If you return and declare you are resident again, you've reset the clock so to speak. As a resident you can legally get a license, it does not have to be your domicile. 

The law is grey in this area because the assumption is that everyone is resident and domiciled in the same place. While in fact that may not be the case. So in order for say Ontario to say my license was not valid, they would have to go to court to prove I was domiciled in another country, being resident in that other country is not enough.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

OldPro said:


> Yes Brisargr, that makes sense. That they can access my record is news to me. Obviously, prior to the internet, they could not do so and so did not do so. Whether any rental company does now or not, who knows.
> 
> I still think the new UK system is a pretty poor system from the driver's viewpoint. I wouldn't care about privacy if the alternative was the nonsense Brit driver's now have to put up with.
> 
> ...


Pretending you live in Canada simply to gain a drivers licence doesnt sound quite right to me. Are you a resident of Canada, or a citizen??? and where does your insurance company think you live?? 

Jo xxx


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## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

jojo said:


> Pretending you live in Canada simply to gain a drivers licence doesnt sound quite right to me. Are you a resident of Canada, or a citizen??? and where does your insurance company think you live??
> 
> Jo xxx


It seems to certain people what is legal and what is not is open to manipulation if it suits their purpose


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Veronica said:


> It seems to certain people what is legal and what is not is open to manipulation if it suits their purpose


and likes to try to use semantics to wriggle out of things 


maybe Canada is different & allows its citizens different leeway

but I know 100% that if you acquire a driving licence in an EU country other than that in which you _actually live _(whether you call it resident or domiciled) that licence is invalid


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## OldPro (Feb 18, 2015)

Jojo, did you read the link I gave on residency, domicile and citizenship? I don't have to pretend to be resident in Canada. Let me ask you this, how long do you have to be resident in the UK before you can apply for a driving license? The answer is 16 days is enough to be considered 'resident'.

The ASSUMPTION that is always made because it applies to 99.9% of people, is that where you live and are a legal resident are one and the same and doesn't change very often. If you read the link I gave above then you would see that that is simply not necessarily so. 

Suppose you chose to live 6 months in the UK and 6 months in Spain every year. In which country are you considered legally resident? The answer is likely to be that BOTH will consider you to be legally resident if you maintain ties to that country. ie. one or more of, own a home, have a bank account, own property or a car, have a driving license, etc. That is called being 'deemed to be resident'. (In such a case, the bigger question is who do you pay income taxes to. The drivers license issue is small beer. But tax is another story.)

Now what do you suppose they expect you to do about a drivers license? Change it every 6 months from one to the other? Let's suppose you keep your UK license valid by re-newing it when you are living in the UK. If you are also considered legally resident in Spain, do they not have a law that says you have to get a Spanish license after you have been resident for a certain period of time? Actually, it is within 2 years of the first day of your official residency in Spain. But if you are legally resident in both countries, both sets of laws apply to you. The Spanish can say you must have a Spanish license and the UK can say, hang on a minute, you are a legal resident in the UK, you must have a UK license. Can you see that this is like a cat chasing its tail. In reality, you could have both or either and if some cop in Spain stops you and says, 'hey, I've seen you here for the last 5 years, you live here. You cannot be driving on a UK license.', what are you gonna say? I'm not a resident of Spain? 

If you read the following link you will find this, "EU licences can only be renewed in the holder's country of residence." That's where xabiachica is getting misled no doubt. 

But if you read farther you will find this, "The licence must be renewed within two years of the first day of the driver's official residency in Spain." That is referring to a license from any other EU country. So if you have a UK license, you have 2 years to convert it to a Spanish license if you are 'deemed to be resident' in Spain. Can you see the catch-22? What if you are legally resident in both the UK and Spain?

The ASSUMPTION being made in the first line I quoted is that you are ONLY resident in one country. That simply isn't necessarily so. http://spain.angloinfo.com/transport/driving-licences/eu-driving-licence/

Now suppose you spend your year in 4 different countries. In which are you resident. Again, the answer is you can be legally resident in all 4 countries. In fact, if you do some research on UK residency vs. domicile you will find that HMRC most definitely will try to say you are resident for tax purposes if you spend 3 months each year in the UK over 4 years. Read here:
Residence And Domicile Definition from Financial Times Lexicon
So if HMRC consider you 'deemed to be resident' for tax purposes, do you think the DVLA is going to say, 'you are not a resident of the UK and can't have a drivers license.'

Residency, domicile and citizenship are complicated. Read here to see recent changes to the UK versions of resident vs domicile and the implications for someone who might have reason to have HMRC.
Residence And Domicile Definition from Financial Times Lexicon

The issue of a drivers license only involves residency and you can be considered legally resident in several countries at the same time. Therefore you can legally have a drivers license for each of those countries at the same time if you wish to do so. That the average cop who stops you will not understand the difference between living somewhere on any given day and being legally resident in a country is just something you have to realize can happen.

Veronica and xabiachica, I think it would be a good idea to do some research and learn the facts before starting to try and cast aspersions about what someone does. 

Xabiachica, you wrote, " but I know 100% that if you acquire a driving licence in an EU country other than that in which you actually live (whether you call it resident or domiciled) that licence is invalid."

You are making one of those ASSUMPTIONS that where you live is one place and you can only have one country of legal residency at any given time. You're wrong. You can be resident of several countries at the same time whether you are living in them on any given day or not. Again, do the research before writing what you may BELIEVE to be a fact but what is in not a fact at all.

The only thing you can have only 1 of at a time of is domicile. That really doesn't even matter when it comes to a drivers license as drivers licenses only require residency, not domicile and not that you be living there every day of your life.

I have 4 passports, I am a legal resident at present of 2 countries and domiciled in a 3rd country. At one time I even achieved the near impossible of not being domiciled in any country for a period of 4 years. I've been at this retired expat thing for 26 years now and during that time I have lived in a dozen countries for periods of time, maintained ties and therefore legal residency in several at the same time and changed domicile a couple of times. I've had drivers licenses from 4 different countries during that time and often more than 1 at the same time just because they overlapped. The only reason I have got another one is not because I could not re-new an old one from another country but because I sat somewhere long enough to go over the period that country would let me drive on a foreign license.


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## Brisargr (May 10, 2014)

Hi Oldpro

I think there are a number of confusions and errors in your reply. In order to reply to the original question, perhaps its best to stick to the EU situation.

Under UK law a licence holder is required to notify DVLA of each and every change of address. For the purposes of this law you must not stay more than 183 days in any EU country or you are deemed as resident in that country. This obviously precludes residency qualifying in two countries in any given year (except leap years!).

EU law permits you to continue using your country of origin licence (providing it is from an EU member state) until that licence expires. Currently for the UK that is 10 years. The EU law does not prescripe a period of time other than the licence duration. It does specifically preclude renewing that licence again in the original country. Whilst this would require proof, in Greece the law very much puts the onus on the individual not the authorities to prove validity. They are getting much better at keeping electronic records, and have recently gained direct access to the DVLC (and Germany. Italy equivelants). The days of Brits being stopped with UK registered vehicles that have overstayed the alloted 6 months in any year, and/or licence details being fudged , are numbered.

Whilst I appreciate the licence issue is a minor one in the scheme of things, getting rid of the "foreign" registered cars here in Greece that have no Insurance, MOT or tax (having not been back to their registered country in many years) is a much higher priority.

Your safest bet Veronica is once your UK licence gets close to expiring is to goto local Greek driving school and convert it to a Greek one. You will save a lot of heartache for the future as the police are getting more savvy.


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## OldPro (Feb 18, 2015)

OK Brisargr, I don't see any point in spending a lot more time on this. All I am saying is that while the majority of people live in one place, have legal residency in that one country and are legally domiciled in the same country as they live in and are a legal resident of, not everyone is in the same position.

Therefore, broad statements like, "EU licences can only be renewed in the holder's country of residence.", while true for many people are based on ASSUMPTIONS re legal residency that do NOT apply to all people. It refers to 'country of residence' it assumes there is only ONE and says nothing regarding if there is more than one.

What that means is that an answer as to what license you can legally have or renew etc. requires that you know whether a person is legally resident in only 1 country or more. So when someone tries to suggest that in order to continue to renew a Canadian license as in my case for example, that I must be doing so illegally, simply shows they are ignorant of what legal residency is and how it is determined for any given country.

I can be legally resident in Canada and in Greece at one and the same time. I can legally have a Canadian license and a Greek license at the same time. I could equally be legally resident in the UK and Greece at one and the same time and legally have a license from both. 

Now if anyone still doesn't understand how you can be legally resident in more than 1 country, then I suggest they do the research to understand how that is possible. Again, I would suggest reading the link I provided earlier which states quite simply how that is possible. It is referring to Canada and the USA but the same principles of law apply everywhere including in Greece and the UK. https://www.sunnet.sunlife.com/file...name_-_Residence_citizenship_and_domicile.pdf

If you want to know how someone could be legally resident in the UK while living in Greece, then scroll to the bottom of page 17 on the following link and start reading. 
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...0506_RDR3_govuk_hyperlink__updated_078500.pdf


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

OldPro said:


> OK Brisargr, I don't see any point in spending a lot more time on this. All I am saying is that while the majority of people live in one place, have legal residency in that one country and are legally domiciled in the same country as they live in and are a legal resident of, not everyone is in the same position.
> 
> Therefore, broad statements like, "EU licences can only be renewed in the holder's country of residence.", while true for many people are based on ASSUMPTIONS re legal residency that do NOT apply to all people. It refers to 'country of residence' it assumes there is only ONE and says nothing regarding if there is more than one.
> 
> ...


Bless you. You've certainly managed to convince yourself. However I recommend that anyone wishing to drive legally wherever they live actually finds out the rules from the official sources

Jo xxx


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## Brisargr (May 10, 2014)

Its good to debate these things Oldpro, because there are indeed somegrey areas. However, you seem to beconfusing residency for tax purposes and residency for driving licence, and they are not the same thing.

You sent a link to the Spanish site for licince info, but had you also looked at Introduction to residency in Spain | AngloINFO Spain you would have seen that residency was after a period of 3 months after which you need a registration document. This is the same in Greece.

In my case, in order to receive medical care, as a pensioner under recipricol agreements with the UK, I needed to declare my residency status. This is not the same as for tax where I stillpay UK tax on my pensions. This means when my UK driving licence expires I willneed to exchange it for a Greek one.

I would suggest this is the same for Canada (but not suggesting I am an authority on Canadia ) as follows:
"_When you move to Ontario, you can use a valid licence from another province, state or country for 60 days. After 60 days, you need to switch to an Ontario driver’s licence._"

As with all things laws require the support of the people and may choose to ignore things and many get away with it.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Brisargr said:


> Its good to debate these things Oldpro, because there are indeed somegrey areas. However, you seem to beconfusing residency for tax purposes and residency for driving licence, and they are not the same thing.
> 
> You sent a link to the Spanish site for licince info, but had you also looked at Introduction to residency in Spain | AngloINFO Spain you would have seen that residency was after a period of 3 months after which you need a registration document. This is the same in Greece.
> 
> ...



The one thing that its very difficult to get away with is car insurance. Yes, insurance companies will take your money and issue you with a certificate - BUT, you have a prang or need to make a claim, they'll be the ones to let you know how "legal" or not you are, cos they dont like paying out! 

Residency is a complicated issue and is often confused with citizenship and financial centre of interest. Like it or not, we all have to belong somewhere

Jo xxx


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## OldPro (Feb 18, 2015)

Yes, it makes sense for you to change to a Greek license Brisargr if you intend to continue living only in Greece. In fact, I don't know why you wouldn't do so now. Why wait unless you don't know if you intend to stay in Greece.

But again, unless you look at it from the point of view of someone who may not stay permanently or who moves from country to country, you are only looking at a narrow picture. Think like a NOMAD. 

The ASSUMPTION is always made that you 'live' in one place. Consider the sentence by jojo, "However I recommend that anyone wishing to drive legally wherever they live actually finds out the rules from the official sources."

Sounds fine and I completely agree with it but note that word 'live'. It implies one place. What if you live in 4 places in one year? What if you just move every couple of years? The rules are written on the assumption that people don't move very often, they are not written to suit a nomad. What then do you do if you ARE a nomad? 

I've been a nomad more or less for the last 26 years. I don't necessarily DECIDE to stay somewhere, I just stay till I decide to leave. I went to Rhodes thinking I would spend a week or so and stayed for 7 years. I decided to leave and upped sticks in a week. In other places I have stayed 3-6 months or a year or two and then moved on. Doing that forces you to become familiar with legal residency, domicile, income tax laws etc. and yes driver's licenses. 

There are as you say many grey areas that the rules don't cover. Unless you are forced to navigate those grey areas, you aren't going to learn how to navigate them as I have had to do.

Jojo, I don't find insurance a problem at all. Take for example a period of time I spent in the UK. On arrival I had an Ontario license and a UK passport. I bought a car, got MOT certificate, tax disc and registered and insured it all in one day. 

I went to a Insurance Broker that the seller suggested. The broker, copied my passport and driver's license. Asked me for an address. I gave him my last address in Greece and he told me to let them know my new address in the UK when I had one. He also told me I could drive for 1 year on my Ontario license. I would need to get a UK license after a year before they would renew my insurance.

So in less than one day I was on the road with a taxed, registered and insured vehicle and driving it legally jojo.

I agree that you can BUY insurance vs. getting a claim PAID if you have an accident but that doesn't mean it is difficult to legally be insured without a local license.

You guy's just don't move often enough that's all.

I also opened a bank account the next day jojo. With NO proof of address which people often insist is a legal requirement. It isn't, it's just preferred by most banks. Another 'grey area'.


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## Brisargr (May 10, 2014)

It is a bit presumptious to suggest I don't move enough, having spent the 39 years prior to my retirement living in India, USA, Canada, Norway, Germany, Poland, Switzerland and Belize.

Your example of insurance is actually what I am talking about. Your scenario is perfectly legal. However, if you had taken the car to say Greece for more than 6 months and not told the insurance companythere would be problems. Similarly if you stayed for more than 6 months there would be legal problems with the Greece authorities, and if say the MOT ran out, then that would also likely invalidate your insurance. It all adds up from what was initially a legal position.

If you also wanted to get the UK licence after 1 year, the UK Gov web site shows that you must have been resident at the UK address for 165 days or they will not exchange the Ontario licence and you would need to sit a UK test.

I also do't know the last time you opened a bank account in either the UK or Greece, but the rules are much much tighter now an you certainly need an address and alsoutility bills and in Greece a tax number before they will even start.

Any have a happy time in Canada and dont do anything I would!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Its always best to get advice from the correct authorities when organising your car, licenses and insurance. Not forum users

Jo xxx


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## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

jojo said:


> Its always best to get advice from the correct authorities when organising your car, licenses and insurance. Not forum users
> 
> Jo xxx


This thread proves that there are certain people who while they think they know everything if you listen to their advice you could end up in a sticky situation. So definitely not a good idea to take what people say on any forum as gospel.
Always get advice from the relevant authorities.


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## OldPro (Feb 18, 2015)

Of course it is jojo but then if everyone did that, you'd be out of a job. LOL

Brisargr, I meant the move enough as a bit of a joke. But maybe I should have said if you move enough and move OFTEN enough as that is another story of course.

Brisargr, the UK DVLA requirements refer to the 183 days in terms of you cannot apply for a UK license BEFORE you have been in the UK for that long. That you can drive on a foreign (non-EU) license for up to 1 year. That you have 5 years to convert a valid foreign license to a UK license. They do not determine 'residency', they just refer to you being resident. In fact, it is the Home Office (immigration) that decides if you are a legal resident of the UK or not and it is HMRC that decides if you are 'deemed resident for tax purposes' or not. I lived in the UK for 6.5 years without being 'deemed resident for tax purposes' while at the same time I was a legal resident.

The DVLA do not refer to what happens if you do not want to exchange a license but instead apply for a license just as any new driver would. When I applied for a UK license, I did not exchange my Ontario license, I retained it. I still have a valid UK driving License although it is about to expire and I have no plans to renew it.

They have no rule that says how long you can be absent from the UK before your UK license becomes invalid other than the expiry date. Obviously, that's how people in Greece can drive on theirs till it expires. It isn't just how long will the other country let you drive on it that matters. Spain will only let you drive on your UK license for 2 years. It can still be valid in the UK right up until it expires.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

OldPro said:


> Of course it is jojo but then if everyone did that, you'd be out of a job. LOL


This isnt actually my job and the forum is a chat forum to share tips and experiences. Its not the authority on subjects that need legal verification - We get posters occasionally who think they have the answers, but its always best to go through the correct channels for clarification and accurate advice.

Jo xxx


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