# Got a question on living in Italy



## DFA (Feb 22, 2011)

All,

If the median income in Italy is about 1500 euro/month how do people afford to live there, I have looked a housing, apartments, and costs of living and it just does not add up (well it does, but it is over 1500 euro/month).:confused2:


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

DFA said:


> All,
> 
> If the median income in Italy is about 1500 euro/month how do people afford to live there, I have looked a housing, apartments, and costs of living and it just does not add up (well it does, but it is over 1500 euro/month).:confused2:


Several answers:
1. Not everyone lives in expensive cities or areas. Cost of living in non-touristy areas can be very affordable.
2. Unmarried Italians typically live with their parents, often well into their 30s. 
3. Typical spending for a tourist is very different from what a local resident may spend - they rarely take taxis, visit expensive museums or eat out in touristy restaurants, for example. Cost of fresh food from the market can be surprisingly affordable and usually of good quality, as is public transport. 
4. They may have inheritance or family heirlooms which can be turned into cash.
5. And I should add that tax evasion/black economy/moonlighting is pretty rife there. So a median 1500€ salary doen't equate to total income.


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## DFA (Feb 22, 2011)

Joppa said:


> Several answers:
> 1. Not everyone lives in expensive cities or areas. Cost of living in non-touristy areas can be very affordable.
> 2. Unmarried Italians typically live with their parents, often well into their 30s.
> 3. Typical spending for a tourist is very different from what a local resident may spend - they rarely take taxis, visit expensive museums or eat out in touristy restaurants, for example. Cost of fresh food from the market can be surprisingly affordable and usually of good quality, as is public transport.
> ...


Thanks for the info; I get a lot of "It's expensive to live in Italy" comments, but like you said they are tourist and living a different lifestyle.


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## italy (Aug 21, 2009)

i think that i would not argue with your figure.. be it tourist or any other type of spend here ... you are right its not cheap but in fact relative to the rest of europe its about equal

i should think people from outside europe would find it scarey

if you take into account Italy also has the highest tax rate on income it looks even worse.. 1500 will be before tax.. 

what you will find is that there are various systems in place that do not include the tax avoidance element which is large and is why the tax rates are so high..

the first things to consider are that if you took the north of Italy by itself the wealth and standard of living there is statistically one of the very highest in europe.. if you add in the centre you have an economy and standard of living which averages out as in the top three economies..

of course if you take the south as a standalone area it has the economy and wealth of a third world area and a standard of living close to any non european third world country.. 

its a cliché to knock the south.. often used but its a fact that Italian averages are distorted by the discrepancy between the two extremes and everyone has heard of the south and its problems but its recognised in statistics that they make the country look very unattractive as a whole in terms of standards of living and wealth..


the strange thing is .. say if you take prices.. the cheapest place to live is north to central.. petrol is cheaper and so is food .. pasta costs almost 50 % more in the south and petrol 20 % more.. so even though average incomes there are well below your figure.. about 800 euro a month costs are significantly higher...

why because infrastructure is terrible so delivering the products costs more.. none of the common big chains exist there in large quantities.. and of course there is the added cost for all business there of paying tributes.. although this also means that those that will not do not exist .. further to that what you are allowed to put on your shelves is controlled rigidly and the warehousing systems down there where stock is held is pretty well managed by local criminals so that you have to buy what they decide to sell and at their price..

in general in Italy how people manage is by having several jobs.. Italy has enough public servants to have a ratio of i think the figure is that there is one public employee for every 2 - 3 people .. what that means in real life is that say the comune employs you.. its a job for life pretty well with a good pension... the fact of the job is that you work around two at most three full time working days a week.. which leaves you free to take on at least one or two other jobs... so most Italians will give their souls to get employed with a fixed contract in some sort of public employment from teacher to road sweeper... and then have a full time job as well.. so not an illegal way.. but a costly way for those companies that pay contributions.. so salaries are low because its the way the system works..

you will find comunes in the south with more public workers listed than residents.. many of the salaries/pensions paid to people long dead.. 

so the wealth here if you skip the crime part which is an easy target .. or tax avoidance..is much more involved.. and relies basically on accepting the fact of being highly taxed and having low salaries whilst then getting work within the system that means that you have to accept high tax and low salaries because you are now part of the problem.. so basically your tax goes to pay your other salary.. well part of it.. topped up by various other benefits...

if that makes sense.. living in the country and growing you own food is another myth.. to grow your own food whilst being maybe healthier is more costly than the supermarket.. and with fuel costs living in a place where a car is required to get anywhere is also very costly.. the myth exists because people look at Italians and on the face of it they do very well ..

here again the system is that you will find at least one person registered disabled with a guaranteed income that means they can stay at home and grow food in the orto and bottle tomatoes all summer long.. not because its cost effective.. and yet if you are getting a state salary via the benefit system to do so it works out well.. you will also find that if not disabled they have old people in the house that they look after.. people get large state monthly benefits if they care for their elderly.. so a lot of families will have this benefit.. even higher if they can get the old person registered with a disability.. and then the old people work the orto and the young people get the job in the comune ..

so again what you see is true but there are added benefits for those that have been born and lived here .. which makes much more sense of a system which if you try and do it as you rightly say does not add up..

the other point with land is that there are huge EU grants available of several thousand euro a year which makes the buying of and growing of things on a small scale very worthwhile ... it also give huge advantages on tax payments form VAT to income tax with you pretty well being exempt from vat and tax written off against farm purchases.. you then being paid to grow crops that cost more to produce than the market price.. but via grants make it very profitable,, how can a small farm you might ask be able to roll out a tractor and equipment system which costs quarter of a million euro on an are of ten hectares..

so Italy is a country where statistics do not make sense nor does the advice that living in the country is cheaper.. you have to understand what is behind this apparent standard of living.. how people can afford to grow an orto.. or drive the latest SUV.. from Mercedes..

a good example is the school teacher.. middle schools seem to be where it happens most.. it renowned as the most useless type of school here.. a teacher turns up the first day to register her start of the years employment and then never goes back for the rest of the school year.. fixed permanent contracts mean they cannot be laid off.. but the school has to employ non permanent staff to teach... might well be a son or daughter of the original teacher.. so two salaries ..one teacher.. the first teacher does his/her full time other job.. i know many farmers that are teachers and spend full time on their farms.. anyway i think you might well see my point.. and if it works for them this way its fine.. i enjoy life here.. enjoy how they use the system... its a laugh .. but as a culture its a huge disinsentive for ambition amongst young people and i wish it was different for that reason.. to allow young Italians to feel that they had a worth and that achievement counts for something..that doing a job well would be an incentive .. but its not.. its why you have that attitude amongst public officials in communes and service areas that if you ask a question you are a nuisance.. 

its changing.. national debt has to be managed and production increased .. Italy still has a an industrial system which supports the economy and they need to reduce costs.. here.. the EU is putting parameters that mean uncontrolled public spending is slowing.. but slowly..


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## euromelb (Apr 18, 2011)

DFA said:


> All,
> 
> If the median income in Italy is about 1500 euro/month how do people afford to live there, I have looked a housing, apartments, and costs of living and it just does not add up (well it does, but it is over 1500 euro/month).:confused2:


Also most people own their homes in Italy so they don't have mortgages to pay


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## Zen-Ghost (May 9, 2011)

Thank you all for the insights on living within a limited budget.

Best
Alan


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