# Think About This



## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

Dawg is temporarily ensconced in his home in the Chiapas Highlands and, thus, is prone to read the local press. So, get this. The Chiapas government with the approval of the Mexican government and the cooperation and participation of the French Government, is building a new major international airport at Palenque along with other major international airports already existing or planned at Majuhual, Quintana Roo near the Belize border and that international airport at Cancun. Add to those developments the airport at Oaxaca City. Then add the new autopistas skirting Mexico City from the north and providing easy access to the south, open and soon to open, and what have you. 

The new autopista from San Cristóbal de Las Casas to Palenque under construction through indigenous lands along with that new international airport at Palenque will provide easy access to the Palenque ruins and those at Tonina, Yaxchilan, Bonimpak and the Lacandon Forest including the Mayacamas protected región and, soon, Betty Sue and all the clan will be flying down from Cleveland for their Disneyland adventure and, then, that which was will be no more.

Dawg is looking forward to Maya ice cream cones and rides up the electric pyramides

Take these developments lightly at your peril.


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## joaquinx (Jul 3, 2010)

Oh the French, that explains it.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

_[QUOTE=joaquinx;2974737]Oh the French, that explains it.[/QUOTE]_

The |French are only looking for the Buck. They are also fond of diseased goose liver. How can you explain some cultures.


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## geoffbob (Oct 24, 2010)

I heard Taco Bell nailed down the authentic Mexican food concession contract for that project; probably due to its nearly universal and instant name recognition.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

geoffbob said:


> I heard Taco Bell nailed down the authentic Mexican food concession contract for that project; probably due to its nearly universal and instant name recognition.


I doubt it! Some years ago Taco Bell came to Mexico and was a big failure and left the country with its tail between its legs.


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## geoffbob (Oct 24, 2010)

Well, er ah, my comment was supposed to be a kind of tongue in cheek kinda deal.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

geoffbob said:


> Well, er ah, my comment was supposed to be a kind of tongue in cheek kinda deal.


I see. Too bad the Expat Forum Smilies collection doesn't include a tongue-in-cheek emoticon.


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## grotton (Apr 20, 2012)

I'd heard about the airport in Palenque but not the new autopista from San Cristobal de las Casas. I'm kind of excited about the idea of the new road because the current nightmare route is about 120 kilometers, not really far, but the 120 million topes (speed bumps) really take a toll. I hate it. What should be a two hour drive takes seven. A new highway will also open up access to Tulum by car which I would enjoy. But it is sure to spur rapid development in the area.


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

An "international airport" at Palenque makes about as much sense as a Taco Bell in Mexico. Not much.


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## joaquinx (Jul 3, 2010)

geoffbob said:


> I heard Taco Bell nailed down the authentic Mexican food concession contract for that project; probably due to its nearly universal and instant name recognition.


I was trying to come up with a sarcastic response to this post, but I didn't have the heart. Just the thought that many people believe Taco Bell serves authentic Mexican food makes me want to weep.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

International at Palenque makes sense if you believe that they will open up the jungle and have a bridge crossing to Guatemala with easy access to Tikal and on to Honduras and so on.
You will have a major airport in Majahual, Palenque Cancun with a two hour ride to San Cristobal. 
The International airport at Palenque will happen, the Secretaria of Tourim was there last week and was talking about it to the press. 
The Engineer who remodelled our house also told me about Mahajual 7 years ago as he ran into the surveyors in the jungle.
There is also a newer autopista and being built autopista from Puerto Chiapas to Oaxaca and Tuxtla, Villa Hermosa. .The Arco Norte was part of the whole plan to to give easy access to Southern Mexico.
The trip from Tuxtla to Tapachula is now under 4 hours. 
I do not know how fast this will happen but considering the rods they are building to link Oaxaca and the coast it looks like they will bust open Southern Mexico . 
Being selfish I do not think it is necessaraly nice as I like being isolated but it sure will change life down here.
One think I would enjoy is a safe 2h road trip to Palenque versus the beautiful but tiring 5 h tope filled trip. I agree with you grotton, that would be really nice.

Sorry to say but big things are happening down here.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

[_QUOTE=Longford;2981321]An "international airport" at Palenque makes about as much sense as a Taco Bell in Mexico. Not much.[/QUOTE]_

It actually makes a lot of sense, especially when considering the involvement of the French as, as one can easily observe while living down here as we do every Winter and spring, Europeans love Southern Mexico and crowd the Andador in San Cristóbal daily in large groups taking off from here to Palenque, Tonina, Yaxchilan, Bonimpak, Calakmul, The Lacandon Jungle including the huge Montes Azules Biosphere Reserve and the more distant but soon much more accessable Oaxaca Coast and Oaxaca City itself as new autopista infrastructure improvements continue apace. 

If there is one thing I know about the French since I married one and have extensive in law relatives in France, it is that they love inexpensive group travel to exotic places and Chiapas and Southern Mexico is one of their favorite places to visit because of its colorful people, incredible pre and post colonial historical interest and splendid natural beauty. Other Europeans love this región of Mexico as well. The airports and/or planned airports scattered about from Cancun to Majahual to Palenque to Oaxaca City plus the vastly improved highway system between these points of interest are all planned in order to attract mass European tourism now going to warm places in Europe , Africa and Asia. There is a reason the opening of construction activity at Palenque attracted dignitaries from France, Chiapas and Mexico City that made headline news down here in the local press and it was not just a free lunch. 

The federal government is not constructing a new autopista through formerly sacred indigenous lands much to the enormous displeasure of various indigenous communities, just so my wife and I plus other locals can get from San Cristóbal to Palenque in two versus five hours visiting the several well known tourist attractions in between those two points. This new autopista plus the new airport is for that anticipated horde of European tourists they are after.


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## vantexan (Sep 4, 2011)

Tempest in a teapot. Take a look around the States at airports that are designated "International." That designation won't turn a rural area into a major airport. Just might mean a direct flight from Miami or Houston for passengers or cargo and thus a customs office. Palenque is a major backpacker destination and some enterprising outfit will likely have flights from Guatemala City or Flores to accommodate them.


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## lagoloo (Apr 12, 2011)

Here's a solution: build a high wall and an alligator-filled moat around those tourist attractions. That way, Betty Sue and the gang from Cleveland won't turn it into Disneyland South.

As most people who "discover" a way-cool place soon find, it doesn't take long for the profiteers to turn it into an expensive destination. Just the way of the world.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

[_QUOTE=vantexan;2983089]Tempest in a teapot. Take a look around the States at airports that are designated "International." That designation won't turn a rural area into a major airport. Just might mean a direct flight from Miami or Houston for passengers or cargo and thus a customs office. Palenque is a major backpacker destination and some enterprising outfit will likely have flights from Guatemala City or Flores to accommodate them.[/QUOTE]_

We are not speaking here of East Texas ******* airports in places such as Texarkana where getting a free mango flavored lollipop after a haircut is considered exotic and an occasionally successful prop flight from Little Rock with 12 morons aboard is akin to an event worthy of a bonfire. Godawlmighty. 

This is not Witchita International we are talking about here and one Godforsaken taxi driver waiting to make a buck from the first flight from Dubuque with some ice fisherman looking for a two bit room at a Days Inn so he can call on Walmart and try to sell them stale cabbages.


Otherwise, Vantexan, you are a good sport.


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## chicois8 (Aug 8, 2009)

The way things move here in Mexico, most of us will be dead before any plane lands at any of these proposed airports, including the OP............


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## vantexan (Sep 4, 2011)

Hound Dog said:


> [_QUOTE=vantexan;2983089]Tempest in a teapot. Take a look around the States at airports that are designated "International." That designation won't turn a rural area into a major airport. Just might mean a direct flight from Miami or Houston for passengers or cargo and thus a customs office. Palenque is a major backpacker destination and some enterprising outfit will likely have flights from Guatemala City or Flores to accommodate them._




We are not speaking here of East Texas ******* airports in places such as Texarkana where getting a free mango flavored lollipop after a haircut is considered exotic and an occasionally successful prop flight from Little Rock with 12 morons aboard is akin to an event worthy of a bonfire. Godawlmighty. 

This is not Witchita International we are talking about here and one Godforsaken taxi driver waiting to make a buck from the first flight from Dubuque with some ice fisherman looking for a two bit room at a Days Inn so he can call on Walmart and try to sell them stale cabbages.


Otherwise, Vantexan, you are a good sport.[/QUOTE]

Well now, a flight from Dubuque to Wichita wouldn't be an international flight. And as Wichita is one of the world's great aeronautical centers it isn't really one of your maligned ******* 'burgs, is it? An international airport denotes international flights. Think there will be direct flights from Paris to Palenque? My bet is on puddle jumpers from Guatemala and Belize. And with a new highway from San Cristobal tourists, backpackers, and sophisticates such as yourself can see the region much more efficiently and comfortably.


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## ojosazules11 (Nov 3, 2013)

Hound Dog said:


> .
> It actually makes a lot of sense, especially when considering the involvement of the French as, as one can easily observe while living down here as we do every Winter and spring, Europeans love Southern Mexico and crowd the Andador in San Cristóbal daily in large groups taking off from here to Palenque, Tonina, Yaxchilan, Bonimpak, Calakmul, The Lacandon Jungle including the huge Montes Azules Biosphere Reserve and the more distant but soon much more accessable Oaxaca Coast and Oaxaca City itself as new autopista infrastructure improvements continue apace.
> 
> If there is one thing I know about the French since I married one and have extensive in law relatives in France, it is that they love inexpensive group travel to exotic places and Chiapas and Southern Mexico is one of their favorite places to visit because of its colorful people, incredible pre and post colonial historical interest and splendid natural beauty. Other Europeans love this región of Mexico as well. The airports and/or planned airports scattered about from Cancun to Majahual to Palenque to Oaxaca City plus the vastly improved highway system between these points of interest are all planned in order to attract mass European tourism now going to warm places in Europe , Africa and Asia. There is a reason the opening of construction activity at Palenque attracted dignitaries from France, Chiapas and Mexico City that made headline news down here in the local press and it was not just a free lunch.
> ...


I deeply share your concern about these developments, Hound Dog, both in terms of the environmental impact and especially the impact on indigenous lands and the people who have been the caretakers of these lands from time immemorial. 

As Pete would sing, "When will they ever learn, when will they ever learn?"


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

I and the French and Chiapas governments have absolutely no doubt that nonstops between Paris and Palenque and/or Majahual in the Southern Riviera Maya just north of Belize are in the cards just as nonstops between European destinations are now commonplace to Cancun. A lot of the flights will be charters charging discounted fares but that is alright. It is the bodies with Euros in purses and wallets that count.

While I am writing about these infrastructural improvements in Southern Mexico, I am not even remotely a development booster. In fact, I thnk this business of total disregard for the large population of indigenous Maya in Highland Chiapas is shameful. Why the hell do I, retired and living on social security and some modest investments , want to see this beautiful and remote place I chose for just those characteristics, overrun with busloads of tourists from around the world. What better do I have to do than drive the present highway between San Cristóbal and Palenque despite the five hour time and a thousand, often unmarked, topes. The drive is beautiful, first ascending from 7,000 feet to about 9,000 feet and then descending after Ocosingo to coffee country at about 4,000 feet and then the nearly sea level tropics at Palenque. The natural beauty of the incredible foliage along this route makes the five hour time investment well worthwhile. We came down here for the isolation after five years at Lake Chapala so why would we welcome these developments. Add to the fact that this surge to invest in tourism may ruin what brought tourists here in the first place, the fact that the state is dishonoring its pact with the indigenous people of Chiapas to respect their lands and values and replacing those values with the values of money grubbing developers.. 

Get serious.


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## chicois8 (Aug 8, 2009)

Sadly,Pete can't sing anymore......que lastima


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Since the Mexicans and Europeans are fueling the tourism down here having a a major International airport in Chiapas makes sense.
I happen to know people in the Secretaria of Tourism down here and I am afraid the plans are very real, make fun of it all you want Chicois, it is on the books and I know architects and engineering firms that are working on it.
The delays in the road between San Cristobal and Palenque has been due to Indigenous oposition as many know that autopista going through their land will not benefit them but the two hour ride to Palenque will eventually happen . The opening and control of the Peten is also on the books, wether it will happen or not our children will see.


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## chicois8 (Aug 8, 2009)

Ms.Dog states:
"I happen to know people in the Secretaria of Tourism down here and I am afraid the plans are very real, make fun of it all you want Chicois, it is on the books and I know architects and engineering firms that are working on it."


I never made fun of these projects,I was stating a fact, many projects take many ,many years to complete and are never on schedule...What I do not understand is why Mexico even deals with the french after the Maximilian fiasco some years back...Viva Cinco de Mayo


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## lagoloo (Apr 12, 2011)

Hound Dog's last howl on here brings to mind: "NIMBYism".
As in "I found something wonderful and I don't want to see a bunch of other people coming here and spoiling it for me."
For anyone who isn't familiar with the acronym, it's "Not in My Back Yard".

I sympathize with the indigenous people, since they were there in the first place and won't enjoy any benefit from development.

I imagine Lakeside was much more pleasant for the residents before it became a retirement destination for people from everywhere else.


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## grotton (Apr 20, 2012)

The airport in Tuxtla is called an international airport but since they canceled the direct flight to Houston, I'm not aware of anything international coming or going. I wonder why they wouldn't just improve the infrastructure of the airport in Tuxtla and then build the autopista. I in general approve of building the new autopista because I think the State will benefit from improved transportation infrastructure. Also, as said earlier, I won't miss the slow road now that can't be safely traversed at night because of the unmarked topes. Or for that matter the constant annoyance of ropes being pulled across the road to slow your progress so you can be solicited for handouts or to buy chips. But I agree the autopista won't benefit the indigenous communities.


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

Everyone in the region, to one extent or another ... will benefit from highway improvements IMO. Spending the money on an airport so some French tourists can reach Palenque easier ... is silly. And I chuckle at the way some people seem to speak of the _indigenous_ in the same way they talk about their house pets.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

_


lagoloo said:



Hound Dog's last howl on here brings to mind: "NIMBYism".
As in "I found something wonderful and I don't want to see a bunch of other people coming here and spoiling it for me."
For anyone who isn't familiar with the acronym, it's "Not in My Back Yard".

I sympathize with the indigenous people, since they were there in the first place and won't enjoy any benefit from development.

I imagine Lakeside was much more pleasant for the residents before it became a retirement destination for people from everywhere else.

Click to expand...

_It sounds to me that you have ambiguous feelings about the ambitious plans of Chiapas and the federal government to develop Southern Mexico as an international tourist destination while all the while disregarding the rights of the 40% of the population who are indigenous and whose lands and rights are being substantially violated but then, since you do not live here, perhaps you are simply being naive and that is understandable.

I have my corner of the Chiapas Highlands and have had that corner since 2006. That corner is in the historic district of San Cristóbal and developers cannot touch that so, as Alfred E. Neuman of _Mad Magazine _fame said back in the 50s, _What, me worry._

As for Lake Chapala, that is a nice place with that big old lake and great dog walking beaches as far as the eye can see. I personally think it evolved into a nicer and far more prosperous place with the arrival of the foreign retired community and that is why we still live there in the summer when Chiapas becomes cold and subject to daily inundations. Unfortunately, the abundance of old farts centered primarily in the Chapala Municipality gives that part of the Lake Chapala community a bit of a bias toward old gooberism so some of us old goobers need to escape periodically plus there is no Burger King at the lake and there is one in San Cristóbal located conveniently near my home here. I think I will head out for one of those Cheese Whoppers now.


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## lagoloo (Apr 12, 2011)

My feelings are not at all ambiguous. On an emotional level. I'd like to see the home of those indigenous people left alone. As a realist, I know that isn't going to happen, and all the ranting any of us do isn't going to make a whit of difference at this point. Sounds like it's been a done deal for a while now.

I've lived in too many once-magical places that were subsequently changed beyond my liking (ruined?)to expect anything different in southern Mexico.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

[_QUOTE=lagoloo;2992993]My feelings are not at all ambiguous. On an emotional level. I'd like to see the home of those indigenous people left alone. As a realist, I know that isn't going to happen, and all the ranting any of us do isn't going to make a whit of difference at this point. Sounds like it's been a done deal for a while now.

I've lived in too many once-magical places that were subsequently changed beyond my liking (ruined?)to expect anything different in southern Mexico.[/QUOTE]_

Well said, lagoloo and your views are much the same as mine. 

When I was growing up on the Alabama and Northwest Florida coasts, those pristine beaches, perhaps the finest in the world with pure sugar white sands and crystal clear aquamarine waters , were largely uninhabited and one could walk for endless miles along deserted beaches of indescribable beauty. Today, that región from Gulf Shores, Alabama to Destin, Florida is gone with the wind and miles and miles of beaches and the splendid waters of the Gulf are obscured by endless high rise, butt ugly condominiums reminiscent of the terrible developments in certain parts of the Spanish Coast. They are now doing that to places such as the Yucatecan Gulf and Riviera Maya. Money talks, internet jabber walks.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

[_QUOTE=Longford;2992833]Everyone in the region, to one extent or another ... will benefit from highway improvements IMO. Spending the money on an airport so some French tourists can reach Palenque easier ... is silly. And I chuckle at the way some people seem to speak of the indigenous in the same way they talk about their house pets. [/QUOTE]_

I have no idea to whom your [excised] comment was directed but inserting a smiley face charácter at the end of an inappropriate comment insulting other posters and their social motives does not excuse rudeness. We actually have five dogs and one cat and those creatures are our children and higher on our status ladder than any human being of any ethnic or racial origin. Chuckle away.


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## vantexan (Sep 4, 2011)

Hound Dog said:


> I and the French and Chiapas governments have absolutely no doubt that nonstops between Paris and Palenque and/or Majahual in the Southern Riviera Maya just north of Belize are in the cards just as nonstops between European destinations are now commonplace to Cancun. A lot of the flights will be charters charging discounted fares but that is alright. It is the bodies with Euros in purses and wallets that count.
> 
> While I am writing about these infrastructural improvements in Southern Mexico, I am not even remotely a development booster. In fact, I thnk this business of total disregard for the large population of indigenous Maya in Highland Chiapas is shameful. Why the hell do I, retired and living on social security and some modest investments , want to see this beautiful and remote place I chose for just those characteristics, overrun with busloads of tourists from around the world. What better do I have to do than drive the present highway between San Cristóbal and Palenque despite the five hour time and a thousand, often unmarked, topes. The drive is beautiful, first ascending from 7,000 feet to about 9,000 feet and then descending after Ocosingo to coffee country at about 4,000 feet and then the nearly sea level tropics at Palenque. The natural beauty of the incredible foliage along this route makes the five hour time investment well worthwhile. We came down here for the isolation after five years at Lake Chapala so why would we welcome these developments. Add to the fact that this surge to invest in tourism may ruin what brought tourists here in the first place, the fact that the state is dishonoring its pact with the indigenous people of Chiapas to respect their lands and values and replacing those values with the values of money grubbing developers..
> 
> Get serious.


And yet you write vividly of the abject poverty and squalor of the villages surrounding SCLC. Just where do you think the chance for a better life will come from short of risking their necks to break their backs in U.S. fields? This is about the comparatively well heeled wanting to keep their quaint, affordable paradise. Sure, let's develop Mexico, just not in my backyard.


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## PanamaJack (Apr 1, 2013)

True or false the Mexican government is building the new airport so the French can reach Palenque easier - FALSE - first of the airport is to link yet another ancient ruin to the outside world. Example - the airport in Peten, Guatemala is there only so people can reach Tikal National Park and other ruins easier. The French have nothing to do with it. They like many European tourists stay for three to five weeks and spend what an American tourists spends in one to two weeks. They seek the least expensive accommodation plan available. Mexico I am sure would prefer tourists that spend more.
True or False - Expats in general do not want development around their backyard - TRUE - most of these posts are talking about how the development will hurt the Indigenous. BOLLOCKS as my good friend Paul says from England. You people have found your paradise and do not want anyone else to have it, when really it is not yours anyway. It is the land of the indigenous just like all the land the the North American Indians lost as development spread across the U.S. 
True or False projects finish on time in Mexico - FALSE, nothing finishes on time in Mexico or for that matter anywhere else in Latin America. However, that does not make it wrong. Time has meant nothing to me over the past 25 plus years, if it did I would have had a heart attack years ago. Expats and other people from away are toooooo tied to a clock, a watch or a schedule. If it gets done today, tomorrow or a month from now what worry is it of yours, it is not your money, your land or your worry... relax enjoy the time you have left an airport or highway will not change things all that much.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

I hope you guys are playing nice??!

Thank you 


Jo xxx


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Russian tourists spend more than Europeans and Americans or Canadians according to the Their number is tiny but it is growing and are the hope for the growth of tourism. 

Indigenous are forever blocking roads down here because theydo not want any roads or autopisa to go through their land and I am not talking about the EZLN villages who want nothing to do with tourism. They also block roads for a lot of other reasons but fighting for the integrity of their land is a big one. Nothing to do with foreigners having found paradise.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Chances for a better life come from learning Spanish and education and most Chiapas indigenous have a long way to go . It does not come from selling knickknacks to tourists and moving to a shack somewhere in that hot and humid area.. 
The younger generations are better educated than their parents and it is fascinating to see the incredible progress some of the young people have made but it remains that most of them are marginalized and all these great projects have very little effect on improving their lives.
These projects benefit a few rich people who are getting richer and offer meager wages to the locals as a rule.
We live in San Cristobal so the development of the jungle will have no or very little effect on us personally and we will probably too old to see it anyways but it is a shame for future generations that the jungle is slotted to be developped and become the next Disney Land..


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

By the way Panamajack where is your sense of humor, the reference to the French was a dig to me from my husband, not a real theory.
Most of the tourists visiting the jungle are the backpacker type and the tours are not very upscale.
There are talks of buiding a nice resort in Agua Azul and that should be very interesting as well..
Many of the places in the jungle are not easy to access for the lack of good and safe roads in some places the rivers are the way to go but they do also have their problems so it make sense that people out for a buck are pushing for the opening of the area.

Knowing that the place will change greatly is going to motivate me to explore it even more and see and experience it as much as I can, all in all a plus for me.


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## grotton (Apr 20, 2012)

Seniora Citlali knows what she is talking about. She has committed countless hours to the communities here in Chiapas and is a force for positive change. Those of us who live in Chiapas know The state is far from a hidden paradise. It is a desperately poor state rife with corruption. But that said, we wouldn't live here if we didn't love it.


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## vantexan (Sep 4, 2011)

citlali said:


> Chances for a better life come from learning Spanish and education and most Chiapas indigenous have a long way to go . It does not come from selling knickknacks to tourists and moving to a shack somewhere in that hot and humid area..
> The younger generations are better educated than their parents and it is fascinating to see the incredible progress some of the young people have made but it remains that most of them are marginalized and all these great projects have very little effect on improving their lives.
> These projects benefit a few rich people who are getting richer and offer meager wages to the locals as a rule.
> We live in San Cristobal so the development of the jungle will have no or very little effect on us personally and we will probably too old to see it anyways but it is a shame for future generations that the jungle is slotted to be developped and become the next Disney Land..


But Hound Dog was also talking about the new highway from San Cristobal and it's adverse effects. No one is saying tourism is the answer to all that ills. But improved infrastructure can lead to investment in other areas too, such as factories. Ask the people in Honduras if they are better off with or without jobs, no matter the pay. It has to start somewhere, otherwise you are dooming future generations in that area with no way out. Everyone knows about the boom in China. And yet half of their population still lives in dire poverty. Would China be better off if the boom didn't happen? If most were still living in poverty? A new airport needs security guards, baggage handlers, check-in clerks, customs officials, mechanics, fuelers, etc. The income paid to them benefits the local economy too. And attracts merchants to serve their needs as well as the tourists'. Which provides more jobs. The jobs don't pay well? What does unemployment pay? You have to start somewhere. And if the French are truly going to take direct flights to Palenque then all those "hordes" have to have rooms and food. Construction, restaurants, other entertainment venues, etc bring jobs with them. But most likely they'll continue to fly to Cancun and proceed from there. And the international flights will be from and to nearby countries in smaller craft to experience their attractions.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Factories in the jungle, that is an interesting idea, talking about building hell in the middle of a place slotted to be for tourists.
I am aware they we have some manufacturers in the jungle but nothing I would call factories and nothing tourists would be allowed to see..but these great roads will be handy to get the product being manufactured now to its destination in El Norte. Think about this great oportunity Honduras Guatemala Mexico US all on one autopista, talking about oportunity!


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## vantexan (Sep 4, 2011)

citlali said:


> Factories in the jungle, that is an interesting idea, talking about building hell in the middle of a place slotted to be for tourists.
> I am aware they we have some manufacturers in the jungle but nothing I would call factories and nothing tourists would be allowed to see..but these great roads will be handy to get the product being manufactured now to its destination in El Norte. Think about this great oportunity Honduras Guatemala Mexico US all on one autopista, talking about oportunity!


Hey y'all are saying Palenque will become a Disneyfied resort that hordes of tourists will fly directly to from Europe. But I'm not talking just about Palenque, but rather a steady improvement in infrastructure in Chiapas leading to more opportunity. Afterall, when the hordes stop coming during the rainy season, real jobs will sustain the locals. And yes it's all very unlikely, but this all started because Hound Dog just can't resist taking shots at us Great Unwashed.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Hords are really not an issue they just go through pretty quickly and disappear. They go to San Cristobal for a day or two, Palenque for one day and disappear so big deal.A whole lot of tourists can be annoying but it brings money and life to the town so it is no big deal
I was raised in Paris and lived in San Francisco most of my life so I am pretty accustomed to tourists and there are always places where they do not go. so go there if you do not want to see them.
The concern is more that once you open the jungle up it starts disappearing along with people and animals living off it . Once it is gone it is gone for ever so I hope the governement and people involved will respect the land and the people for once.

By the way hords do not stop coming in the rainy season June July and August are high season here. There is a reason Chiapas is so beautiful and green all year long, it is call RAIN and we get lots of it any month of the year.


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

The causation if problems in Chiapas is a complicated discussion with deep roots going back to when the state was part of Guatemala. Tn recent decades the problems have been made worse by the interferrence of outsiders, including terrorists such as Marcos and the EZLN. Foreign leftist groups have provided funding for the EZLN. Particularly from France. All local residents should have a place at the planning table, their interests respected and the do-gooder foreigners should butt-out of local affairs and stop telling local people how to live their lives. Better infrastructure helps all.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Local people vote and have representatives and it is up to them to decide. So all I can do is vote and go on with my life.


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## PanamaJack (Apr 1, 2013)

Longford said:


> The causation if problems in Chiapas is a complicated discussion with deep roots going back to when the state was part of Guatemala. Tn recent decades the problems have been made worse by the interferrence of outsiders, including terrorists such as Marcos and the EZLN. Foreign leftist groups have provided funding for the EZLN. Particularly from France. All local residents should have a place at the planning table, their interests respected and the do-gooder foreigners should butt-out of local affairs and stop telling local people how to live their lives. Better infrastructure helps all.


Longford I agree. Better infrastructure helps and can help these people immensely. I also agree that the do-gooder foreigners who claim to have the answers should stay out of local affairs. Image Mexicans telling the French how to do something in France, or the Mexicans telling people from Alabama how to fish for shrimp. What would be the response from Billy Bob to that? Probably something I cannot wrote on this forum


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## grotton (Apr 20, 2012)

Actually, could you imagine an American in the US telling a Mexican working for a non-profit or charitable organization there to butt out of US affairs. That would be pretty racist. Hmm...


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

The French government is not telling anyone what to do in Mexico. Air France Alitalia and AeroMexico are partners and it makes sense that they will be pushing to get a route here that is just good business.
As far as the French giving money to the EZLN , that is your story, I know that leftist organizations from the US and Spain are giving money , do not know what France is going and I also know that ETA is giving quite a bit of money to them as well so if some French are they are not the only ones. When it comes to mingling in Latin Amerian affairs the US has a good trat records so start worrying about your country .

Who is telling anyone how to run their business? I work with the Mexican government and with a Mexican non-profit , Mexican indigenous and I am a naturalized Mexican so frankly I do not see the point your are trying to make.

As far as infrastructure is concerned , tell me about it I just spend 4 hours to do 100 km and all my appointments tomorrow are cancelled because a road has collapsed. If there is someone who knows how important the infrastructure is for the area, it is the people who live here and not in Chicago or Mexico City.


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

citlali said:


> As far as infrastructure is concerned , tell me about it I just spend 4 hours to do 100 km and all my appointments tomorrow are cancelled because a road has collapsed. If there is someone who knows how important the infrastructure is for the area, it is the people who live here and not in Chicago or Mexico City.


You're preaching to the chorus. Tell your story to your other half. The one who seems so opposed to improvements for the indigenous and the infrastructure improvements others have commented on favorably.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

My husband is not my other half and he has his own opinions . 
By the way Zapatisas are not therrorists just a failed movement of extremely poor people who are trying to better themselves but have not succeeded yet.
I had to meet people yesterday 70km from my house, in a town of 20 000 thousands people. To get there you cross some magnificent country, the country Heyduke used to love going to, have to go through Zapatista and Abeja country and the greatest danger you meet there is the road.
Totally disgraceful with pavement collapsed and nothing between you and eternity, landslides etc..my husband was driving so he is very much aware of the needs for improvemnts of the infrastructure. The road is disgraceful and has no warning whatsover and when you travel it in the fog like we did it is extremely dangerous.
Today a kid from a village about 70km from here also had to come to San Cristobal to show a store some sample he has done for them. The road, an other one from his village to the next village is also cut off. We intended to give him a ride last week and had to drop him off in Larrainzar because f the fog. 
This week the fog is better but a landslide is blocking his road so he has to go the way we went yesterday. To make it for an appointment at noon in San Cristobal he has to leave his home at 5 am so I promise you that my husband is very well aware of the needs for infrastructure improvements. For us it is not a line in the paper we are directly affected by the bad roads. 
We realize that major projects for international business and business in general are necessary but safe roads to conduct our life on a daily basis are a lot more important to us than some project that may or may not be finished and is surrounded by grandiose speeches from politicians.


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## chicois8 (Aug 8, 2009)

Originally Posted by citlali 
As far as infrastructure is concerned , tell me about it I just spend 4 hours to do 100 km and all my appointments tomorrow are cancelled because a road has collapsed. If there is someone who knows how important the infrastructure is for the area, it is the people who live here and not in Chicago or Mexico City.

I am going to be driving to San Cristobal in a few days then on some of the back roads, citlali, would you mind telling which road collapsed?


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

The section of the road I am speaking about is between Santa Martha and Aladama.

A landslive cutoff Pantelho but they are working on it and they just about finished fixing that part.

The road from Pantelho to Chenaho has a lot of pavement missing sometimes half of the road that are gone and these are the places that have nothing between you and eternity.

We are having a lot of fog and low clouds in the mountains even if you start with sun in San Cristoabl by the time you reach San Andres you are in the fog so the bad roads without warning or visibility make the road pretty dangerous.

Just met with someone from Simojovel and the road is bad but not worst than usual lots of fog on parts of it as well.

The main road from La Tinaja to Tuxtla is fine with the usual bad pavements in spots and the Tuxtla San Cristobal autopista is fine too.


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

citlali said:


> By the way Zapatisas are not therrorists ...


I described SubComandante Marcos and EZLN as terrorists. Choose your own definition, but I'll use the one which I believe is generally accepted in Mexico. They're foreign-sponsored terrorists. As for the Zapatistas .... it's all well and good if locals are in lock-step agreement with them. If someone isn't, in the communities they control ... 



> We realize that major projects for international business and business in general are necessary but safe roads to conduct our life on a daily basis are a lot more important to us than some project that may or may not be finished and is surrounded by grandiose speeches from politicians.


Well, you and your other half seem to be on different sides of the issues we've been discussing here, including highway improvements, the airport, etc. I'm with you - and so are others here.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Marcos is someone for foreigners but he is only important because he is educated, speaks English and is very good at manipulating the press. He is just a figure head in a going nowhere movement. He did romanticized the fight of the brothers and in doing so is getting money from gullible young people and various groups from all corners of the earth including Mexico but franfkly when a "reolutionary, terrotist "or whatever people chose to call him shows up at his favorite restaurant in SC in a big black SUV followed by all the big shots of the movement in full regalia with ribbons flowing from their pretty hats and coming out of 3 brand new white vans marked EZLN he is losing a lot of credebility to me.
I was invited by a Swiss Human right observer to the conference and I did not go but saw the show as I was with a friend in a restaurant accross the street. What a show..in contrast you can drive to any Zapatista village and can see how people live and how marginalized they are and you can see the reality which is not pretty.
They are like all other political system ..corrupt..nothing pure about them but meanwhile their people live in sad village with little access to education, poor roads , poor access to markets and so on. 
The movement dis attract attention to the plight of many people and some positive changes happened but it is walloring in its own importance now and they would all be way better off uniting to the rest o the locals and demand better schools better roads and use the system to go one step further.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

We just returned from a several day road trip from our home in San Cristóbal de Las Casas on a circuitous drive through Amantenango Del Valle and then into the often dirt-poor Tierra Caliente región through various, mostly poor communities in that sugar cane growing low country área to Venustiano Carranza and back to the high country through the El Chiflon Cascades área to Comitan and on to the tourist oriented Lagos de Montebello National Park along the Guatemala border before returning to San Cristóbal directly from La Trinitaria and Comitan along the direct Highland road. This trip to the hot country was for business purposes but the detour through tourist oriented regions from El Chiflon to Comitan to the Lagos de Montebello área before returning home was for pleasure. The contrast of roadway infrastructural improvements in the poor Tierra Caliente sugar cane growing región where tourists seldom venture and are not a significant economic factor and the much more tourist oriented región between El Chiflon, the Lagos de Montebello, Comitan and San Cristóbal could not have been more startling and depressing. The roads in the Tierra Caliente, despite frenetic harvesting activity among the cane fields and sugar refineries, were practically impassable with ubiquitous deep, axle-bending potholes making progress from point-to-point a laborious and tensión-filled task. As soon as we passed El Chiflon and headed toward Comitan, the roads along our path through the áreas the government has designated as tourist oriented were excellent and our progress was unimpeded.

I understand the government´s stance that tourism is a critical factor in achieving economic progress in poverty-stricken Chiapas but it seems to me that more equity in the allocation of scarce capital resources between poor farming áreas and more well-to-do tourist oriented áreas is required. 

By the way, it´s really not far, as the crow flies, from San Cristóbal to Venustiano Carranza but, because of the inexcusably deteriorated roadways in the Tierra Caliente, the drive takes what seems an eternity and is quite unpleasant. Some of the artisans we met with down there told us the road trip from that área to San Cristóbal, where they market their products, via colectivo, can take up to five hours over a distance that should take no more than two - and that is during the dry season. That is a round trip journey of 10 hours or more to market and back before you have sold even one thing.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

I don´t wish to sound as though I am harping on the subject of bad roads in parts of Chiapas that I just commented on in my previous post just submitted but I realized, upon reflection, that many readers are not acquainted with the complex topography of the Chiapas región so, when I write about lengthy road trips among various points in the state because of bad roads, I should clarify that the región I was discussing in that post is not at alll mountainous but mostly flat agricultural land nestled between the Chiapas Highlands to the north in the direction of the Gulf of Mexico and the Sierra Madre de Chiapas in the south adjacent to the Pacific Coast. The reason I make this distinction is that many rural áreas in the Chiapas Highlands suffer from poor roads because they sit among steep mountain passes and deep valleys difficult to access and prone to landslides in unstable territory. The territory I was writing about, on the other hand, is flat and geographical encumbrances are not an issue. The issue is simply inadequate road maintenance. Many living and toiling in the Chiapas Highlands, on the other hand, are cut off from their markets by geographical encumbrances difficult imposible to overcome.

In the área upon which I was commenting, this is not the issue so when I stated that these areass are actually close together but difficult to mutually access, I was writing of road maintenance, not difficult terrain.


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

Hound Dog said:


> The issue is simply inadequate road maintenance.


Rural roads throughout the nation, those many on which I've traveled ... suffer from "inadequate road maintenance." It's a complaint the world-over, from inhabitants of rural areas.

A principal challenge to improving infrastructure in Mexico is prioritization of funding decisions. For the most part, funding comes from the top - from the Federal government - not from the bottom through local or real estate taxes which, to the extent they are paid / collected are insufficient to fund the vast wish list of improvements. My view is Mexico doens't value it's people highly, at least not those below the middle-middle class bracket. The focus is on where the 'big bucks' can be taken from ... and it's not from the indigenous and other poor folks. Parts of Chiapas aren't much different in their wants / needs than so many other parts of the country. Sad commentary which isn't about to change any time soon, IMO.


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## lagoloo (Apr 12, 2011)

Isn't that true just about everywhere on the planet? I'm thinking back to how things were for the poorer classes in the U.S.; the run down cities; the poorly maintained infrastructure in the country, etc. 

Sadly but truly: It is far better to be rich.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

I think there are bad roads and bads roads and since I live in Ajijic , Jalisco and Chiapas I have a pretty good idea of wat the rural roads in Jalisco are like, believe me no comparaison to what people in Chiapas have to go through. I tis a total disgrace. You do take your life in your hands when travelling some of the back roads right now. Roads have collapsed and there is no warning what soever. It is not a question of breaking an axel it is life or death. Bid difference.


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

I understand that some people have favorite places to talk about. Fine. That's a natural condition many of us deal with. That doesn't mean there aren't other many other places in Mexico with the same or worse conditions. Chiapas isn't unique in having rural roads in bad condition. Not by a long shot, IMO.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

_


Longford said:



I understand that some people have favorite places to talk about. Fine. That's a natural condition many of us deal with. That doesn't mean there aren't other many other places in Mexico with the same or worse conditions. Chiapas isn't unique in having rural roads in bad condition. Not by a long shot, IMO.

Click to expand...

_We write about Chiapas because that is where we live about 1/2 of each year and the ignorance about the poverty and violence that plague this state plus its incredible natural beauty and historical interest among those observing from afar is often appalling. We don´t write much about Lake Chapala where we live the rest of the time because, while we love it there, there isn´t much to write about. We started participating in this fórum because we felt it would have a more widespread and inquisitve readership than the Chapala fórums we used to post on with their parochial readership normally only concerned about goings-on in the large expat colony comprising a small geographic área fronting part of the northern lakeshore. If there are those out there on this fórum who are offended by our writings for whatever reason, the "enter" and "exit" button is at their command when they observe that either Hound Dog or Citlali have originated a posting.

As for whether or not Chiapas is unique in having rural roads in bad condition, I can only speak of rural roads we frequent all over Chiapas, Oaxaca, The three Yucatán Peninsula states, Tabasco, Veracruz, Guerrero, Michoacan, Jalisco, the State of Mexico and Puebla. Someone else will have to write about the territory stretching from Tamualipas to Sonora or Baja Californiia and I for one would welcome their input.

For really bad and dangerous rural roads not serving the tourist trade but simply the indigenous villagers who must use them to get to market to try to scrape out a meager living or educate their children at often distant schools with no public transportation available, Chiapas is the King of bad roads in all of the territory we frequent. . Whereever the decisión is made to allocate resources to roadbed maintenance, somebody somewhere has decided to scew the indigenous villagers in Chiapas to the wall. It is a disgrace and these decisions are doubtless very political and deliberate.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Hound Dog said:


> […]
> As for whether or not Chiapas is unique in having rural roads in bad condition, I can only speak of rural roads we frequent all over Chiapas, Oaxaca, The three Yucatán Peninsula states, Tabasco, Veracruz, Guerrero, Michoacan, Jalisco, the State of Mexico and Puebla. Someone else will have to write about the territory stretching from Tamualipas to Sonora or Baja Californiia and I for one would welcome their input.
> 
> For really bad and dangerous rural roads not serving the tourist trade but simply the indigenous villagers who must use them to get to market to try to scrape out a meager living or educate their children at often distant schools with no public transportation available, Chiapas is the King of bad roads in all of the territory we frequent. . Whereever the decisión is made to allocate resources to roadbed maintenance, somebody somewhere has decided to scew the indigenous villagers in Chiapas to the wall. It is a disgrace and these decisions are doubtless very political and deliberate.


I have never really understood how Mexico partitions its limited tax resources between federal, state and municpality. If someone could explain that I would be forever grateful. 

Having said that, is it possible that there was no conscious decision to short change the good people of Chiapas. Is it possible that they are the poorest state, have the least resources, hence the worst roads. All for reasons having more to do with history and geography, rather than a political decision.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

_


TundraGreen said:



I have never really understood how Mexico partitions its limited tax resources between federal, state and municpality. If someone could explain that I would be forever grateful. 

Having said that, is it possible that there was no conscious decision to short change the good people of Chiapas. Is it possible that they are the poorest state, have the least resources, hence the worst roads. All for reasons having more to do with history and geography, rather than a political decision.

Click to expand...

_No concious decisión might seem a rational explanation to those of us living in places remote from here but consider this. As one drives around Chiapas as we have extensively over the past eight years among other parts of Southern Mexico, one must remain curious as to why intercommunity thoroughfares among indigenous villages in rural Chiapas are in states of serious disrepair and, yet, intravillage streets are often paved in heavy concrete adequate to accept tanks and other military vehicles at a whim so you have this paradoxical state of affairs where remote indigenous communities are served by obviously inadequate thoroughfares but have, within their perimeters, the most modern and accessible concrete streets imaginable. You don´t have to be a weatherman to see which way the wind is blowing.

The decision is political and that´s OK as long as you see it and agree with the posture of the powers trying to achieve their goals but understand it. You cannot see this from Chicago or Birmingham any more than I could see this from Birmingham when I lived in that city in the 1960s despite my then travels to more accessibe parts of Mexico. 

Most people living in Chiapas have no idea where Lake Chapala is so I tell them I´m from Guadalajara which provides them with some vague geographical reference that I am from some big city associated with Mexico. 

The human condition.


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

People who've traveled extensively in Mexico understand the situation is similar throughout the nation and not just limited to one state or section of one state. Period. To say the situation is otherwise is silly, IMO. There's enough poor to go around for everyone to claim their own preference for a particular group/state. Given the chance to answer such a question, I don't doubt most Mexicans will say they've been singled-out for bad treatment, discrimination, lack of services, etc. It's often a nation which lacks respect for self, and others from what I've observed. All of that is the byproduct of complicated national policy and politics dating back many decades - including the 7 decades of virtual dictatorship by the PRI whose policy it was to keep the poor poor and deny them an education and resources to advance and improve their lot in life. that lack of education in the nation further complicates the matters. Tax evasion in Mexico is a national sport amongst the population and the areas where money is collected always seem to get the attention - and I understand that. I don't doubt that's what happens the world-over ... for the most part. I find it a bit humorous that someone in this discussion who it seems to me was objecting to investment in infrastructure is now complaining about the lack of infrastructure. Can't have it both ways!


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

[_QUOTE=Longford;3085585]People who've traveled extensively in Mexico understand the situation is similar throughout the nation and not just limited to one state or section of one state. Period. To say the situation is otherwise is silly, IMO. There's enough poor to go around for everyone to claim their own preference for a particular group/state. Given the chance to answer such a question, I don't doubt most Mexicans will say they've been singled-out for bad treatment, discrimination, lack of services, etc. It's often a nation which lacks respect for self, and others from what I've observed. All of that is the byproduct of complicated national policy and politics dating back many decades - including the 7 decades of virtual dictatorship by the PRI whose policy it was to keep the poor poor and deny them an education and resources to advance and improve their lot in life. that lack of education in the nation further complicates the matters. Tax evasion in Mexico is a national sport amongst the population and the areas where money is collected always seem to get the attention - and I understand that. I don't doubt that's what happens the world-over ... for the most part. I find it a bit humorous that someone in this discussion who it seems to me was objecting to investment in infrastructure is now complaining about the lack of infrastructure. Can't have it both ways![/QUOTE]_

A facile observation, general in tone and unworthy of rejoinder.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Longford and Hound Dog, you have both had your say. It is time to move on. Any more rejoinders in this vein will be deleted.


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## sparks (Jun 17, 2007)

Too esoteric for me ... in all directions


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

_


TundraGreen said:



Longford and Hound Dog, you have both had your say. It is time to move on. Any more rejoinders in this vein will be deleted.

Click to expand...

_Fair enough, TG. That tete-a-tete was beginning to exhibit the characteristics of fingernails screeching across a blackboard so time to move on.

Despite the fact that the title I gave this thread is a bit nebulous, it is about Chiapas so here is a change of pace.

From today´s _Cuarto Poder _published in Tuxtla Gutiérrez:

*HEADLINE: UNA CIUDAD DE 7 MIL CANTINAS*

It seems that Tuxtla, the capital of Chiapas and a city of somewhere between 500,000 and 600,000 people, has within its boundaries at least 7,000 cantinas, both legal and illegal. That would, according to _Cuarto Poder_, be one cantina for every 79 inhabitants of the metropolitan área. That is one for each 20 households. 350 times the number of libraries, 12 times the number of schools classified as "niveles básico and medio suoerior" combined. Having grown up in a "dry" community in South Alabama where the sale of alcohol was illegal - including beer and wine - and sots still abounded but everyone was drinking out of brown paper bags filled with booze bought at the county line, Tuxtla sounds like my kind of place. I don´t know why we moved to nearby stodgy San Cristóbal. Quite shortsighted upon reflection.

Tuxtla has many fine characteristics and Dawg has just uncovered another one. Reading the local press can be enlightening and it´s on line so go for it.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Hound Dog said:


> Fair enough, TG. That tete-a-tete was beginning to exhibit the characteristics of fingernails screeching across a blackboard so time to move on.
> 
> Despite the fact that the title I gave this thread is a bit nebulous, it is about Chiapas so here is a change of pace.
> 
> ...


As long as the bars outnumber the churches there is hope for humanity.


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