# Hope to buy



## bristolboy (Jul 16, 2015)

Hi, I'm John from Bristol and for the past 10 years we have owned a villa in Turkey. The past couple of years have seen life in general for ex-pats get worse. So much so, that although we love our villa in a beautifully quiet village, it is up for sale. Last year we stayed at the Olympic beach area near Mt Olympus, and in previous years we have been to other Greek islands.
We recently spent a few days in ******, and were so impressed and delighted by the people we met, and life in general, despite the current problems being encountered by the people. One man told me that when things improve, imagine how even better life will be. We are very keen to find out about the possibility of buying our next property in Greece. Please can anyone offer any details of Greek property companies or websites that specialise in houses in Greece. We are not at all sure where we would like to buy, but would love to initially explore all options. 
Sincerest thanks for any advice or help offered.


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## bristolboy (Jul 16, 2015)

*What a start!*

What a start to my forum use. Meant to start the thread "Hope to buy"...sorry


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## nyclon (Apr 3, 2011)

Easily remedied.  

Welcome to the forum.


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## bristolboy (Jul 16, 2015)

Thank you. I look forward to contributing where I can and take on board any advice which might help us purchase a property in Greece.


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## OldPro (Feb 18, 2015)

Well your comment, "The past couple of years have seen life in general for ex-pats get worse.", raises some questions in my mind to begin with. Truthfully, it is a bit of a Red Flag.

What does that comment actually mean? Worse in what ways? Expats come in all shapes and sizes and some of them have expectations that can be pretty unrealistic. Before suggesting you try Greece, it might be worth knowing what kind of things have put you off Turkey. You may be jumping from the frying pan into the fire as the saying goes.

Of all the people I saw arrive on what they expected to be their island paradise in Greece, half were gone within 2 years and only 1-2 out of 10 were still there after 5 years. Obviously, what they expected and reality were not one and the same thing.

I'm also unclear as to whether you are talking about living in Greece or just a holiday home you visit a few weeks/months per year. Those who take a property off the market for their own part-time use are not perceived in the same way as those who wish to live and integrate into the community.

My advice to anyone thinking of living in Greece is always the same. NEVER buy until you have lived in the place for at least one and preferably 2 years. It is quite common for example for new arrivals to move 2 or 3 times within the first year as they discover the pros and cons of the area/neighbourhood they have chosen to live in initially.

I don't mean to be rude or negative bristolboy, I lived very happily in Greece for years and would gladly say it is a place I would be willing to live again but your comment re expats in Turkey is raising a Red Flag in my mind. What went wrong and how will Greece be any different? If you provide more information in that regard, it might result in advice that it isn't going to be much different in Greece.


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## The Grocer (May 30, 2010)

I found

DomoGreece

great to deal with....


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## concertina (Oct 18, 2012)

Grekodom is a company with thousands of properties all over Greece and Aspis is another.


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## bristolboy (Jul 16, 2015)

Thank you all for your comments and replies. OldPro, thank you especially for your in depth response. Erdogan is trying to undo all the great work started by Atatrurk,and turn Turkey into a pure muslim state. There are many examples of how we are affected, along with the Turkish people. For example, bars or shops cannot sell alcohol if they are within 100m of a mosque. Therefore in centrums where there are lots of mosques ie Kusadasi, Bodrum, bars have seen their tourism trade dramatically fall. He wants to bring in a law that if anyone sells their house at a profit, that profit must be given to the local mosque. He wants to stop all bank accounts earning any interest. He has already banned the advertising of alcohol, so all bars that have signs or parasols have had to paint out the name of the beer. The introduction of the 120 day rule means that many many foreigners who had paid a great deal of money for their Turkish residency have had them expired. To take out a residency now, if you wish to stay more than 90 days, means you have to pay over 1800TL for a health cover. Its sad and many people who have owned property in Turkey are trying to sell up.
Back to your other points, we are looking to buy a villa as a second home, where we can spend 6-8 months of the year. We have a totally blank canvas with regard location, that is why I asked if anyone knew of any websites I could peruse. 
Thank you again, I look forward to finding out more.


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## bristolboy (Jul 16, 2015)

Thank you very much The Grocer. A stunning property, but sadly out of our price range, and until we sell ours, we cannot begin to set our hearts on specific properties. But thank you again
And Concertina, many thanks indeed for your messages, very much appreciated. At the moment we can only browse websites, and get ideas of where we would like to look at properties, but again, thank you


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## DavidFontaine (Jan 30, 2014)

I would wait to see what happens in the next 6 months. A Grexit isn't off the cards yet so why buy a property in Euros when you could buy one in a massively devalued currency soon.

Looking at property online you would think there had never been a crisis. Greeks rarely seem to reduce the price of anything they are selling even if it means it stays on the market for 10 years. Definitely haggle. I've known people recently negotiate 50% off a listed price.


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## concertina (Oct 18, 2012)

*Capitalism*



DavidFontaine said:


> I would wait to see what happens in the next 6 months. A Grexit isn't off the cards yet so why buy a property in Euros when you could buy one in a massively devalued currency soon.
> 
> Looking at property online you would think there had never been a crisis. Greeks rarely seem to reduce the price of anything they are selling even if it means it stays on the market for 10 years. Definitely haggle. I've known people recently negotiate 50% off a listed price.


So it would seem that its not only Troika and the gang looking for Greece and its peoples down-fall,Capitalists abound everywhere.Why should they reduce their property and give it away for a song?Do you not feel pity for people who you want to loose 50% value of their property and they may have mortgages on their property,they have often given blood,sweat and tears,they may be in negative equity so that the capitalists can come along and laugh at their misfortune afterwards.Greece will serve all of you then.I built a house here recently and have already dropped its true value,the cost to me by 80 thousand and I would sooner die with it than sell it to people with your attitude and mindset.


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## DavidFontaine (Jan 30, 2014)

I'm not talking about people who are starving and making ends meet by selling their houses and moving on to the streets. I'm talking about those who mindlessly advertise a property at what they think it's worth rather than the market value. There are plenty of properties around where I live on for 2 million Euros which is just a price from the land of make believe.

As for people working hard for their properties, there are plenty of people sitting on nice little portfolios thanks to insane government lump sum pensions that got them into this mess so don't always assume these people have worked their fingers to the bone for the house


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## concertina (Oct 18, 2012)

*Capitalism*



DavidFontaine said:


> I'm not talking about people who are starving and making ends meet by selling their houses and moving on to the streets. I'm talking about those who mindlessly advertise a property at what they think it's worth rather than the market value. There are plenty of properties around where I live on for 2 million Euros which is just a price from the land of make believe.
> 
> As for people working hard for their properties, there are plenty of people sitting on nice little portfolios thanks to insane government lump sum pensions that got them into this mess so don't always assume these people have worked their fingers to the bone for the house


Im not starving or moving onto the street,Id say that UK property prices seem to be from the land of make believe,people still pay it and it all seems quite normal
,it all depends on how much is in ones pocket and how much one is willing to pay,do you know the market value in every area,it goes by the square meter and all areas are different.I dont assume anything,I know hundreds of Greek and non Greek who have never sat on nice little lump sum pensions who wish to sell their property,some who inherited in this crisis whilst loosing their job and going to free food centers.My husband had to sell his property in this crisis because of all the austerity,he works like a dog every day,he dont sit on no fat pension,Yes you have right in that some people do have many properties from monies they should not have received however that does not apply to the majority of Greeks and I have been here for twenty six years and I have seen parents and grand parents go without many things in order to build a home for their children,you are implying that there are only two categories of homeowners in Greece,those ready to occupy the streets and those who are fat-cat ex public sector workers which as I worked in a property agents before the crisis I can categorically tell you is not true to reality.


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## OldPro (Feb 18, 2015)

LOL, there is nothing unique in Greek property pricing and changing the topic to a political rant really isn't doing the OP any good. Why not stick to the topic the OP is interested in, not the topic you want to change it to.

OK bristolboy, I wasn't aware of even half of what you describe as happening in Turkey now. Putting it in context makes it far better for me to understand your position etc. 

My next question would be how long is it likely to take to sell and what I would take from David's comments is that people often fail to reduce their price to reflect the current market situation. Greeks however are not alone in that. I'm sure just as many Brits, Canadians, Americans, Australians and yes expats in Turkey do the same thing.

So how realistic are you being with your selling price? Given what you have wrote about the situation, I for one would not be in any hurry to take it off your hands. Who do you think will be? Any property will sell at the right price however. But the right price as dictated by the market may not be anywhere near what you want it to be.

I would be concentrating my efforts and time on selling the existing property rather than thinking about where and when to buy in Greece. Again, no offense intended bristolboy, just pointing out some no doubt harsh realities.

If you research what the average selling time has been in your area during the last 5 years, that should tell you how long it should take you to sell your current place IF it is priced right. If it does not sell within that time, the price is too high to attract those who are willing to buy in the market conditions you describe exist today.

What you need is a Turkish friend (assuming your Turkish language skills are not up to the job) to find an article like this: Average time it takes to sell a home is 65 days | Daily Mail Online

I can tell you that in Greece (again ignoring the current situation), it is easy to buy as an expat and hard to sell. Anywhere that a large number of expats are to be found, the locals are well aware that when an expat decides to sell up and leave, it is a buyer's market. In all my time in Greece, I never heard of an expat selling for what they thought their place was worth on any basis. Their best bet was to sell to a newly arrived foreigner who was still wearing those rose coloured glasses.

I think TV shows like House Hunters International (USA show) or Place In the Sun (UK show) do a lot of disservice to want-to-be expats. If you watch them closely you will often be able to tell (by the furnishings etc) that the house being shown for sale, belongs to an expat looking to get out. Those shows never show how it is for those trying to sell and how they make out.

I never saw anyone leave with more money than they arrived with and most with considerably less. As you also say, a lot of expats are now trying to sell up. That means prices will be dropping depending on just how desparate some become. You may want to consider getting ahead of the curve.

Many years ago, a very good real estate agent in Canada explained to me what that meant. In a falling market, people who want to sell start out with a number in their head of what they feel their house is worth. But the only price that matters is what the market says it is worth. People never want to hear from their agent what that price really is. So to get the listing, the agent lists the property at a price the owner will agree to and in a falling market that price is almost always more than the market price. So the house doesn't sell and the agent goes back to the owner saying, 'look, the market is falling, you have to lower your price if you hope to get a sale. I can't even get anyone to view your property.' The owner reluctantly agrees to drop the price X amount. It is still rarely enough of a drop and here is the KEY. All the time this is taking, prices are dropping even more. So you are following a dropping market but NOT getting ahead of it.

To get ahead of it, you may have to swallow a very bitter pill indeed but it is still better than following the market down. If you follow the market down you will end up with an even lower price than if you get ahead of the market to begin with.

I can give you a prime and real example. We owned a condo in British Columbia at the beginning of the 08/09 recession. We put it up for sale just as the breaking news started to talk about the recession. The price we listed for was $235k. After 3 weeks, our agent told us that prices were falling weekly and we needed to adjust our price accordingly. 

He told us that 6 months previously, we would have got $235k but not any more. We asked what he thought we could get and his answer was $205k. That's a hard drop to swallow but we did it and sold within a week. 

I watched the market for condos in the same building after we had sold. Within 6 months, the same size units were selling for $175k if at all. One couple we know in the building had listed at the same time as us and at the same $235k. They ended up selling at $190k having followed the market down for 3 months before biting the bullet and listening to their agent.

So here's my question to you bristolboy. How realistic are you being with your selling price?


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## concertina (Oct 18, 2012)

Excuse me but I think that the above essay you have written is mostly off topic as it often is from you and no one says anything so as not to offend you especially as you often presume that members have not researched their move properly and you often preach to them which is offensive,it wasnt a political rant it was a discussion on why Greeks should not give their property away for a song,it did turn slightly as your posts most often do,and you have not lived in Greece for many years,Greece is now not the Greece from way back when.Please dont comment on other peoples posts cause we could sure have a lot to say about yours,like stop telling people off and treating them like idiots.


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## bristolboy (Jul 16, 2015)

Thank you all for the comments and discussion. It certainly helps us understand more about what is happening in Greece. The UK press are not always accurate in their news stories!!
OldPro you make very interesting and salient points. Our house is on for a realistic price and priced in Euros, not TL or £, so we can gauge our buying price range on a like for like basis. We have to pay 3% commission to the agent, and according to what I read another 10% on top for taxes etc when we next purchase. Our Turkish friends are most helpful, and advised us on all aspects of selling.
Thank you all again. I am enjoying reading all comments.


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## concertina (Oct 18, 2012)

Well thats a great idea, if Greece goes out of Euro and back to Drachma then people selling property here should just demand to be paid in Euro or Pounds then there would be no bargains for buyers,have a laugh,as you dont want to be paid in Lira which happens to be the currency of Turkey I suppose Greeks wouldnt want payment in Drachma but I guess theres more chance of selling anything here than in Turkey with that awful situation,a big put off for potential buyers and so much trouble down that way,Muslim state etc,prison sentences for the smallest infringements of religious law, far cry from European integration..But I do believe Greece will come up just fine within a year along with property prices so those predicting doom and gloom even hoping for it might be in for a shock.Instead of buyers waiting for rich pickings the sellers might be waiting for the rich pickings.


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## OldPro (Feb 18, 2015)

When someone writes, "and have already dropped its true value,the cost to me by 80 thousand and I would sooner die with it than sell it to people with......", that is a prime example of someone who THINKS a house value is decided by them rather than by the market. There is no such thing as 'true value', market value is the only value that matters. Anything is only worth as much as someone will pay for it on any given day. 

Well that all sounds fine bristolboy and I wish you well with finding a buyer. Once you have sold, my advice then remains the same. Rent initially, don't rush to buy.


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## concertina (Oct 18, 2012)

OldPro said:


> When someone writes, "and have already dropped its true value,the cost to me by 80 thousand and I would sooner die with it than sell it to people with......", that is a prime example of someone who THINKS a house value is decided by them rather than by the market. There is no such thing as 'true value', market value is the only value that matters. Anything is only worth as much as someone will pay for it on any given day.
> 
> Well that all sounds fine bristolboy and I wish you well with finding a buyer. Once you have sold, my advice then remains the same. Rent initially, don't rush to buy.


Actually OldPro Property prices or market prices go by the square metre here in Greece and they all differ,depending on many factors,but the square metre price will determine the market price,now whether I want to sell it below that or higher is up to me and the buyer,as you say it all depends how badly they want my house or how badly I need to sell it,the square metre price is a guideline otherwise how can we determine the value,its not like the UK where an agent comes round to value and the mortgage surveyor values,then you can haggle over it,a guiding price must be in place otherwise you have chaos.And the market guiding price is set by the square metre in Greece,I know this because I live here.I wasnt really expecting someone to pick up so pedantically about "true value" and "market value" I mean its just a general informative chat,we are surely not at school being told off by the teacher,the teacher being you.


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## OldPro (Feb 18, 2015)

"Property prices or market prices go by the square metre here in Greece and they all differ,depending on many factors,but the square metre price will determine the market price"

You may think it pedantic concertina, I just consider it common sense. You wrote the above, now tell me who sets the square metre price for your house? Is it a government set number?

I don't think so. It is the price per square metre (or here in Canada, per square foot) that is determined to be an average price per square metre in a given location, simply by looking at past (but recent) sales. There is nothing unique to Greece in that at all. 

That average square metre price was set by the market, NOT the other way around. All it tells you is what the average sale price was per square metre. It does not tell you why one house of the same number of square metres sold for more than the one next door for example. Or why one house sold for more per square metre than a larger house next door. It cannot tell you the value of YOUR individual house at all. 

Nor is there anything unique in people not understanding what it means and does not mean. Read here for example: Can I Use the Price Per Square Foot for Home Values? You will see that the last line is 'It does not compute value'. 

So I will say to you once again, a property is worth exactly what someone is willing to pay for it. In other words, what the market decides it is worth, not what you decide it is worth. Try reading this page: Pricing Your House to Sell

Real estate world wide works in the same way with the same factors at work everywhere. The process used may vary from place to place, buying and selling in Canada vs. the UK vs. the USA, differs from one to the others but that is only the process. The market value in all 3 still depends on one thing only. What the market is willing to pay. 

Plenty of people live here in Canada concertina and don't know how to value their house for sale properly, you 'living' in Greece doesn't make you capable of valuing your house and more than they can.

You may feel you are being told off by the teacher, if so, that's your problem, not mine. I'm just telling you it like it is. You wrote earlier, "I built a house here recently and have already dropped its true value,the cost to me by 80 thousand". 

That tells me all I need to know about what you know about how to value a house for sale. I can't help it if you don't want to hear what I have written. You may be familiar with the saying though, 'don't shoot the messenger'. I'm telling it like it is, whether you like hearing it or not. Your house is not worth what you decide it is worth, it is worth what someone else decides to pay you for it.


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