# Can IMN be Bribed?



## CozumelComplete (Mar 11, 2013)

It appears so!!! An aquaintence just got his Residente Temporal with permission to work. He came in on a tourist card but the boss had some contacts in Chetumal and made some "donation". Kind of sux when those of us who have lived here for years play by the rules.


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## joaquinx (Jul 3, 2010)

CozumelComplete said:


> It appears so!!! An aquaintence just got his Residente Temporal with permission to work. He came in on a tourist card but the boss had some contacts in Chetumal and made some "donation". Kind of sux when those of us who have lived here for years play by the rules.


Posting the same message on two forums makes it true.


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## Guategringo (Nov 9, 2012)

CozumelComplete said:


> It appears so!!! An aquaintence just got his Residente Temporal with permission to work. He came in on a tourist card but the boss had some contacts in Chetumal and made some "donation". Kind of sux when those of us who have lived here for years play by the rules.


It sure is true. I know personally how it works and how much it costs in a form of a donation for permanent residency. I understand how you feel, but in Latin America playing by the rules often times includes donations. I once had to give a donation of US$5,000 to a member of a government agency in tourism to have them make a large purchase of tourism product I was representing.


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## CozumelComplete (Mar 11, 2013)

Joaquinx and your point is???? No need to be saccastic, I put it on both boards because there are some who only use one board. OH AND IT IS TRUE>>>>I SAW THE RESULTS!!!


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## joaquinx (Jul 3, 2010)

CozumelComplete said:


> Joaquinx and your point is???? No need to be saccastic, I put it on both boards because there are some who only use one board. OH AND IT IS TRUE>>>>I SAW THE RESULTS!!!


Sorry, I didn't have a Sarcastic font. It is just seems to me that your post was a bunch of sour grapes.


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## CozumelComplete (Mar 11, 2013)

Well yes in part it was, sorry if I resent people who go around the laws while the rest of us comply!!!


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

CozumelComplete said:


> Well yes in part it was, sorry if I resent people who go around the laws while the rest of us comply!!!


It bothers me too, but there's really nothing you can do about it - it's just one of those pesky cultural differences that are part of living in Mexico. Most of the time, I focus on the good stuff!


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## Guategringo (Nov 9, 2012)

Isla Verde said:


> It bothers me too, but there's really nothing you can do about it - it's just one of those pesky cultural differences that are part of living in Mexico. Most of the time, I focus on the good stuff!


Isla I agree with you. Since I have worked and lived in the region for 20 years it seems that its is a cultural thing that is becoming less and less frequent each year. Less police take brides and less government officals are corrupt. However, getting upset about it is not worth or the correct thing since we all are guests here whether we are residents or on temporary visas.


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## alexdz (Nov 18, 2012)

Isla Verde said:


> It bothers me too, but there's really nothing you can do about it - it's just one of those pesky cultural differences that are part of living in Mexico. Most of the time, I focus on the good stuff!


About 15 years ago I worked with a govie who ended up going to jail for taking money and gifts from a contractor. There were two of them actually, both GS-15, but the second testified against the first and didn't do time.

I also remember growing up in pre-Serpico NY when virtually every cop in the city was taking something from somebody. My own father (a numbers runner) regularly paid off several in our neighborhood. Hell I remember watching uniformed cops in a squad car "rescuing" a couple of televisions from a store in a building that had just burned.

If there's a cultural difference, it's more to do with acceptance, which I suppose is why all of the above eventually ended up in trouble with the law. But I'm sure stuff still happens.


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

alexdz said:


> About 15 years ago I worked with a govie who ended up going to jail for taking money and gifts from a contractor. There were two of them actually, both GS-15, but the second testified against the first and didn't do time.
> 
> I also remember growing up in pre-Serpico NY when virtually every cop in the city was taking something from somebody. My own father (a numbers runner) regularly paid off several in our neighborhood. Hell I remember watching uniformed cops in a squad car "rescuing" a couple of televisions from a store in a building that had just burned.
> 
> If there's a cultural difference, it's more to do with acceptance, which I suppose is why all of the above eventually ended up in trouble with the law. But I'm sure stuff still happens.


It really sucks, but it happens everywhere not only in Mexico


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

As stated by the last two posters, one needn´t come to Mexico to feel the sting of special treatment of those who donate to politicians. At the present time, the U.S. government has become virtually dysfuntional and congress is paralized by fat cat "donors" who have bought and control governmental bodies from Washington, DC all the way down to satehouses and municipal governments. As a result, the rich get richer, the poor poorer and we U.S. taxpayers subject ever increasingly to an arcane federal tax code that is impossibly complex and grossly unfair in its treatment of the middle class wage earner or retiree.

Let´s not get too excited about minor graft at the INM evidenced by the greasing of wheels of the migratory process through "donations" - you could be a Central American migrant heading to the U.S. through Mexico to work like an indentured slave in the fields just crossing the border in Chiapas with the expectation of being robbed and/or assaulted by anyone from gang mmbers to local cops to local, state and/or federal officials to you name it. If you want to get indignant - start there.

I would venture that those who brag that Chiapas is a low crime area are not passing through from Honduras or Mexican indigenous coping with life in the Lacandon. As Jimmy Carter once said; "Life is not fair."


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## ABCinATL (Jun 19, 2010)

I guess I don't understand. 

I came in a few years ago on a tourist card and my Mexican employer sponsored (for lack of a better word) my change of visa which gave me temporal resident status with the ability to work (and pay taxes) in Mexico. It was not bribery, they went through INM and filed the correct paperwork for the no inmigrante (temp resident) with lucrative (work authorization) status.

Is that what happened here or can you explain more what the problem is?


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

ABCinATL said:


> I guess I don't understand.
> 
> I came in a few years ago on a tourist card and my Mexican employer sponsored (for lack of a better word) my change of visa which gave me temporal resident status with the ability to work (and pay taxes) in Mexico. It was not bribery, they went through INM and filed the correct paperwork for the no inmigrante (temp resident) with lucrative (work authorization) status.
> 
> Is that what happened here or can you explain more what the problem is?


Under the new rules, you have to leave the country to convert from a visitor permit to a Residente Temporal. Under the old rules, that was not the case. The implication from the original post in this thread was that someone was paid on the side to get around that rule.


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## ABCinATL (Jun 19, 2010)

TundraGreen, thanks for the clarification. It has been a while since I converted (first from tourist to temp resident then last year from temp to perm resident) - I appreciate the info.

I am not surprised this happened. It seems most anything in Mexico (and most of latin america, from what I gather) is open to interpretation / flexibility.


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## mickisue1 (Mar 10, 2012)

GARYJ65 said:


> It really sucks, but it happens everywhere not only in Mexico


Exactly. The biggest difference is that in the US, it's big corporations and organizations and their lobbyists who "donate" to the candidates and political parties in order to write the laws.

There's a reason, for example, that the Medicare coverage for RX drugs is so terrible: it was written by drug companies.

In MX, at least, the playing field is a little more level. You can "donate" in order to modify existing laws as they regard yourself.


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## johnmex (Nov 30, 2010)

ABCinATL said:


> TundraGreen, thanks for the clarification. It has been a while since I converted (first from tourist to temp resident then last year from temp to perm resident) - I appreciate the info.
> 
> I am not surprised this happened. It seems most anything in Mexico (and most of latin america, from what I gather) is open to interpretation / flexibility.


The word you are looking for is "criteria"....
BTW,it is the same in English and Spanish.


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

Isla Verde said:


> It bothers me too, but there's really nothing you can do about it - it's just one of those pesky cultural differences that are part of living in Mexico. Most of the time, I focus on the good stuff!


If you've been in Mexico any length of time, it becomes apparent that dishonesty is part of the national DNA. Sadly so.


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## joaquinx (Jul 3, 2010)

Longford said:


> If you've been in Mexico any length of time, it becomes apparent that dishonesty is part of the national DNA. Sadly so.


Not _dishonesty_ as much as _lubricant_.


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## ABCinATL (Jun 19, 2010)

johnmex said:


> The word you are looking for is "criteria"....
> BTW,it is the same in English and Spanish.


johnmex, didn't realize I was looking for a word :confused2:

agree with the later post using the word lubricant, this cultural practice does seem to keep things moving along, right or wrong (or somewhere in the middle).


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## Guategringo (Nov 9, 2012)

Longford said:


> If you've been in Mexico any length of time, it becomes apparent that dishonesty is part of the national DNA. Sadly so.


It is not dishonest if it is part of the culture and accepted by the masses. Lubricant is the best word I have heard it described as. It just makes everything work with less friction....


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## mickisue1 (Mar 10, 2012)

If the practice of buying influence is "in the DNA" it's in everyone's. We all do it, whether by name-dropping or cash dropping.

It's human nature to want to get around things that interfere with our reaching our goals, no matter how petty or how lofty.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Guategringo said:


> It is not dishonest if it is part of the culture and accepted by the masses. Lubricant is the best word I have heard it described as. It just makes everything work with less friction....


My objection to using "lubricant" to describe the practice is that makes it sound benign. While I understand that in many countries it is standard practice for extracurricular payments to be part of accepted business practice, I don't think it is ideal.


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

joaquinx said:


> Not _dishonesty_ as much as _lubricant_.


If I'm interpreting your comments correctly, I have the sense you haven't moved about Mexico, interacted with many Mexicans ... because, if you had done those things, you wouldn't make that statement. One of the most complained about abuses in Mexico is the depth of corruption in the nation. At virtually every level of society. It's dishonest. alright And if you don't understand that, I feel sorry for you. :confused2:


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

Longford said:


> If you've been in Mexico any length of time, it becomes apparent that dishonesty is part of the national DNA. Sadly so.


I disagree with that; it is NOT part of national Mexican DNA, perhaps human race DNA's, I find that opinion discriminating.
There are so many examples in México, US, croatia, russia, You name it.
Perhaps we should open another thread just to enlist all of them
It would be a big big big thread


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## joaquinx (Jul 3, 2010)

Longford said:


> joaquinx said:
> 
> 
> > Not _dishonesty_ as much as _lubricant_.[/QUOTE
> ...


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

TundraGreen said:


> My objection to using "lubricant" to describe the practice is that makes it sound benign. While I understand that in many countries it is standard practice for extracurricular payments to be part of accepted business practice, I don't think it is ideal.


I agree with your opinion.
I would like to know 1, just one country that does not have that practice


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

GARYJ65 said:


> I agree with your opinion.
> I would like to know 1, just one country that does not have that practice


In some countries, it's just an accepted part of doing deals. In others, it happens but is not really accepted or approved of.


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

Isla Verde said:


> In some countries, it's just an accepted part of doing deals. In others, it happens but is not really accepted or approved of.


I agree with You too Isla
Saludos!


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## jlms (May 15, 2008)

Oh, Mexico is an equal opportunities society, where everyone can partake in the corruption, unlike other countries where only the rich and powerful do 

Jokes aside, yep, it is like that. The funny thing is that very often is not even asked, but is rarely rejected. If you are ever asked for a bribe you don't need to pay up, but your live will be much more difficult.

I want to note that I never paid one and made it into adulthood relatively unscathed  Pretending to be stupid helps, the briber wants a deal to be finished quickly, so if you use delaying tactics attributable to you being a bit dim, they will become nervous and follow regular channels.


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## trpt2345 (Jan 15, 2012)

joaquinx said:


> Not _dishonesty_ as much as _lubricant_.


Definition of an honest politician: one who after being bribed remains bribed and doesn't change his or her mind.


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## trpt2345 (Jan 15, 2012)

jlms said:


> Oh, Mexico is an equal opportunities society, where everyone can partake in the corruption, unlike other countries where only the rich and powerful do
> 
> Jokes aside, yep, it is like that. The funny thing is that very often is not even asked, but is rarely rejected. If you are ever asked for a bribe you don't need to pay up, but your live will be much more difficult.
> 
> I want to note that I never paid one and made it into adulthood relatively unscathed  Pretending to be stupid helps, the briber wants a deal to be finished quickly, so if you use delaying tactics attributable to you being a bit dim, they will become nervous and follow regular channels.


Or just pretend to not speak Spanish.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

jlms said:


> Jokes aside, yep, it is like that. The funny thing is that very often is not even asked, but is rarely rejected. If you are ever asked for a bribe you don't need to pay up, but your live will be much more difficult.
> 
> I want to note that I never paid one and made it into adulthood relatively unscathed  Pretending to be stupid helps, the briber wants a deal to be finished quickly, so if you use delaying tactics attributable to you being a bit dim, they will become nervous and follow regular channels.


I've lived in Mexico over 5 years and have never been asked for a bribe either directly or indirectly. I wonder why . . .


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Isla Verde said:


> I've lived in Mexico over 5 years and have never been asked for a bribe either directly or indirectly. I wonder why . . .


Ditto


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

Well, let[s see, I have lived here for some 12 years and have had bribes demanded of me by local transito cops in Mexico City, Guadalajara, Ajijic and the old transito office in Riberas, both on Lake Chapala. I have also been hit up for mordida by federal cops in Southern Mexico and had my wallet stolen by local cops in the boonies who picked my pocket with admirable skill for a couple of clodhoppers. However, I have never been solicited for a bribe by INM or any other Mexican governmental agency except for transito officials under any circumstances.

Since we bought a Mexican plated car in 2004 and got rid of that California plated Chrysler, which attracted transito thieves like flies to honey, we have had no problems in the normal course of driving whether at Lake Chapala, transitting numerous times through the heart of hugely corrupt Mexico City or while driving repeatedly between Lake Chapala and Southern Mexico and all around Southern Mexico while there much of the year. 

Funny thing is that, while that California plated Chrtsler attracted transitos often for mordida attempts, we were never harassed whille drivng our old, beat up California plated Ford Ranger Pickup anywhere in Mexico. I guess if one must drive a foreign plated vehicle one should nmake sure it is a dusty old clunker with as many dents in it as possible.

Note that I stated that bribes have been demanded of me in the past, not that I paid them.


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## mickisue1 (Mar 10, 2012)

People usually find what they're looking for.

Look for dishonesty, and you'll find it. Look for crabby, unhelpful people, and you'll find them.

Luckily for Isla, Will and myself, the opposite is also true.


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## Guategringo (Nov 9, 2012)

I mentioned earlier what the cost of a permanent residence card was... I guess I have accepted the fact that in the region it is much easier to get things done and done much quicker by paying for them. If that offends anyone or anyone loses respect for me than I accept that as well, nevertheless knowing that my permanent residence worries are a thing of the past makes life much easier.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Hound Dog said:


> Well, let[s see, I have lived here for some 12 years and have had bribes demanded of me by local transito cops in Mexico City, Guadalajara, Ajijic and the old transito office in Riberas, both on Lake Chapala. I have also been hit up for mordida by federal cops in Southern Mexico and had my wallet stolen by local cops in the boonies who picked my pocket with admirable skill for a couple of clodhoppers. However, I have never been solicited for a bribe by INM or any other Mexican governmental agency except for transito officials under any circumstances.
> 
> Since we bought a Mexican plated car in 2004 and got rid of that California plated Chrysler, which attracted transito thieves like flies to honey, we have had no problems in the normal course of driving whether at Lake Chapala, transitting numerous times through the heart of hugely corrupt Mexico City or while driving repeatedly between Lake Chapala and Southern Mexico and all around Southern Mexico while there much of the year.
> 
> ...


This post confirms what I had suspected about being asked for bribes. This usually comes about when you're driving around the country and come into contact with the infamous _tránsitos_. Since I don't have a car, that's why it has never happened to me. Just another good reason for being "carless" in Mexico!


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Guategringo said:


> I mentioned earlier what the cost of a permanent residence card was... I guess I have accepted the fact that in the region it is much easier to get things done and done much quicker by paying for them. If that offends anyone or anyone loses respect for me than I accept that as well, nevertheless knowing that my permanent residence worries are a thing of the past makes life much easier.


I can undertand why you decided to do what you did to get your RP card. It does bother me that by paying a bribe you were able to avoid going through the _trámites_ the rest of us have had to deal with to get our visas. Just my two cents' worth.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

[_QUOTE=Isla Verde;1091493]This post confirms what I had suspected about being asked for bribes. This usually comes about when you're driving around the country and come into contact with the infamous tránsitos. Since I don't have a car, that's why it has never happened to me. Just another good reason for being "carless" in Mexico![/QUOTE]_

In my experience over the 12 years I have lived at Lake Chapala and six years in San Cristobal de Las Casas, traveling the approximately 1,500 kilometers mas o menos between these two places repeatedly through, alternatively, Jalisco, Michoacan, Puebla State, Mexico State, Mexico City, Veracruz State, Oaxaca State, Tabasco, Yucatan, Quintana Roo and Campeche State and all over Chiapas including some pretty primitive areas where one never lays eyes on a foreign tourist, I have never had a problem with even the transit crooks. local, state, indigenous or federal since, in 2004, we bought a modest Mexican plated automobile and we drive the autopistas often well in excess of the posted speed limits. I say this because isla verde is right that one can avoid mordida problems with transitos by simply not driving and if one lives in certain parts of Mexico City or certain other urban areas such as San Ctistobal de Las Casas, that is a feasible idea. I suggest that, alternatively, the reader simply get rid of that foreign plated vehicle and buy a Mexican plated vehicle for, while that will not assure no problems with transit cops, that move has certainly worked for us since 2004, even in dreaded Mexico City, despite extensive travel by personal automobile. As I stated earlier, that Calfornia plated Chrysler was a magnet for crooked transit cops and driving it up to the U.S. to sell it at Carmax in San Antonio was one of our best moves we have made since moving permanently down here.

Outside of the ubiquitous transit cop crooks, we have never been hit up for the little bite by any governmental official in Mexico in all that time but then we have never sought any special dispensation or licensing to do business or other privileged activities in Mexico requiring government approval and have no idea what that might entail. 

As for the comment by Guategringo that he expidited the permanent residency process at INM with a cash sweetener to some official in that agency, I was surprised to read this. We went through the process of achieving Inmgrado status, now known as residente permanente over a ten year period using the old designations of temporary resident, first as FM 3 and then as FM 2, without so much as paying one centavo to a facilitator much less even realizing INM officials were open to expiditing the process through bribery. That is not to say that INM has been free of corruption in certain areas of its responsibilities other than the visa issuance process in Chapala and Guadalajara but it never occurred to us to attempt to grease the wheels with a cash incentive to any of the various INM officials with whom we dealt over the years either in Chapala or Guadalajara. In the first place, the process was really never that difficult to handle personally even in the early days when neither of us spoke any Spanish and, secondly. every time we went in to INM for annual renewals, we were always dealing with different officials in an atmosphere not conducive to any suggestion of graft.

By the way, Guategringo wrote that he stated in one comment on this thread the amount he paid INM for his expidited permanent resident status but I could not find that comment and am curious as to just what this expidited process cost him if he would be so kind as to share that information with us. From what I have been reading on these forums, it appears to me that Guategringo just recently moved from Guatemala to Queretaro where he would have dealt with INM while we always dealt with INM in Jalisco. Perhaps things are done differently in Queretaro but my advice to the candidate for a residency visa of any type is to simply go with the floow, preferably without a facilitator and forget greasing the skids with cash. Despite the current confusion attendant to implementing the new law, the process is not that difficult so why not simply ride the process through utilizinng the normal processes if you otherwise qualify for a residency visa.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

A footnote to my above comment regarding mitigating the chances of becoming a victim of the little biite by a transit cop. My wife reminded me that she actually got a speeding ticket with that Jallsco plated car at Lake Chapala recently but that was not a mordida request. She was actually speeding through a vibradores zone and was issued a legitimate speeding ticket payable in Chapala with no request by the trransit cop that she pay mordida instead. That is a different situation than that I was discussing above where the transit cop demands a payoff on the spot, often when there has been no actual traffic violation. I would rather get a ticket for a legitimate traffic violation in Mexico than get one in California or France any day, especially France where the system is absolutely unforgiving and penalties harsh.


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

CozumelComplete said:


> It appears so!!! An aquaintence just got his Residente Temporal with permission to work. He came in on a tourist card but the boss had some contacts in Chetumal and made some "donation". Kind of sux when those of us who have lived here for years play by the rules.


One more answer to the thread: 
Yes, IMN can be bribed, as much as almost any other government office or person IN THIS PLANET
It' s not in mexicans DNA as someone wrote before and that is a very poor opinion of México and its people, also, México do not need, requested or want people that say that.
I am a good driver myself, but sometimes I get caught speeding or some other thing, one advice I can give You, works for me ALL the time, is to let the "police officer" to tell You whatever he wants to say in orden to explain your advantages of paying him off, then, when he CLEARLY tells You about the bribe, respectfully, very respectfully, tell him or her that You do not give bribes, that it is corruption and You are not going to participate, once they know for a fact that they will not get any money from You and You are NOT willing to play along, they get upset and let You go. 
In México or any other country that takes bribes, it takes two to tango.


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## Guategringo (Nov 9, 2012)

Hound Dog,
I can understand you not agreeing with greasing the palms of anyone. However, since I have lived in this area for 20 years, I have found it to be a necessary tool both in business and personally. As for what took place - I was approached by a family member of my wife. She is Guatemalan and he has lived in Chetumal for years. He told me he knew the head of immigration for one of the states in Mexico and could help the family become residents. I never spoke to or saw any member of the Mexican immigration service. My wife's family member said he needed US$1200 for the four family members - two adults and two children - both minors. 

I filled out paperwork in Chetumal, included my donation with the paperwork and waited for one week. After a week we drove to Mexico City and I picked up the resident cards at a travel agency in DF owned by my wife's family member. 

I too have been stopped on numerous occasions by police in Mexico as I used to drive from California to Guatemala twice a year. On some occasions I did give a donation and on other I refused. I have had to do the same with police in Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador and Nicaragua. In Costa Rica I was stopped for speeding by police with radar!!! Yes, radar, they normally DO NOT take donations and I did not offer one either. However, I never paid the fine since I was only passing through the country.


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## johnmex (Nov 30, 2010)

GARYJ65 said:


> In México or any other country that takes bribes, it takes two to tango.


The only time in my 20 years here that I was "asked" to give a mordida was by a Guadalajara transit cop (at the time "tamarindos"). I played the stupid ****** for a while and then it "dawned on me"... I opened my wallet in front of all the onlookers and told him in perfectly understandable (and loud) Spanish "Andele, tomale todo!" (Go ahead, take it all!). Guess what happened next...


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

[_QUOTE=Guategringo;1092501]Hound Dog,
I can understand you not agreeing with greasing the palms of anyone. However, since I have lived in this area for 20 years, I have found it to be a necessary tool both in business and personally. As for what took place - I was approached by a family member of my wife. She is Guatemalan and he has lived in Chetumal for years. He told me he knew the head of immigration for one of the states in Mexico and could help the family become residents. I never spoke to or saw any member of the Mexican immigration service. My wife's family member said he needed US$1200 for the four family members - two adults and two children - both minors. 

I filled out paperwork in Chetumal, included my donation with the paperwork and waited for one week. After a week we drove to Mexico City and I picked up the resident cards at a travel agency in DF owned by my wife's family member. 

I too have been stopped on numerous occasions by police in Mexico as I used to drive from California to Guatemala twice a year. On some occasions I did give a donation and on other I refused. I have had to do the same with police in Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador and Nicaragua. In Costa Rica I was stopped for speeding by police with radar!!! Yes, radar, they normally DO NOT take donations and I did not offer one either. However, I never paid the fine since I was only passing through the country.[/QUOTE]_

Guategringo, I was not passing judgment on your actions in any way and, from what you are telling us, the process you went through for residentail visas for four people sounds inexpensive when compared to the normal process over the years so it sounds to me like you got a good deal. Let me make it clear that I am not opposed to greasing palms when it is a customary way to do business in any particular political jusisdiction and that is probably absolutely necessary to do business in much of Latin American and, much more normal than many would like to believe in the U.S. whether directly or indirectly. 

Walmart just opened a superstore in Ajijic on Lake Chapala and a Bodega Aurrera and Sams Club in San Cristobal and no doubt seriously greased some palms to open in both of those places I reside. I am not complaining.;


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

Hound Dog said:


> Guategringo said:
> 
> 
> > Hound Dog,
> ...


I raise my hand to say I am 100 % opposed to grease, dar mordida, or whatever the term we may use for bribing and corruption.
Since I am not a saint, by any means, I prefer to go the long way or to pay the fines rather than bribing.
Let me tell You something else; I have a kidnapping experience and I know as a fact that if we don't start working on repairing things like corruption, we are only keeping it alive and one day it comes back at us with its ugliest face


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

johnmex said:


> The only time in my 20 years here that I was "asked" to give a mordida was by a Guadalajara transit cop (at the time "tamarindos"). I played the stupid ****** for a while and then it "dawned on me"... I opened my wallet in front of all the onlookers and told him in perfectly understandable (and loud) Spanish "Andele, tomale todo!" (Go ahead, take it all!). Guess what happened next...


I did a similar thing last year; told the police comandante that we should make things the right way: if You want my money You will have to rob me the right way, You have a gun, don't You?
He got very very upset, his face turned jitomate red, did not say anything else and left.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

GARYJ65 said:


> I raise my hand to say I am 100 % opposed to grease, dar mordida, or whatever the term we may use for bribing and corruption.
> Since I am not a saint, by any means, I prefer to go the long way or to pay the fines rather than bribing.
> Let me tell You something else; I have a kidnapping experience and I know as a fact that if we don't start working on repairing things like corruption, we are only keeping it alive and one day it comes back at us with its ugliest face


Sorry to hear about your kidnapping experience - it must have been horrible!

I agree that every time we pay a bribe, we are helping to encourage corruption. If there are other ways to take care of business (like getting a residence visa from INM, for example), then that's the way we should do things, especially as guests living in Mexico. This is my opinion, of course, and others on the board may, and no doubt will, disagree with me, but isn't that what a forum like this is for, to share our different points of view?


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

Isla Verde said:


> Sorry to hear about your kidnapping experience - it must have been horrible!
> 
> I agree that every time we pay a bribe, we are helping to encourage corruption. If there are other ways to take care of business (like getting a residence visa from INM, for example), then that's the way we should do things, especially as guests living in Mexico. This is my opinion, of course, and others on the board may, and no doubt will, disagree with me, but isn't that what a forum like this is for, to share our different points of view?


I agree with You, for me, bribing is not, by any chance an option
As You said, it's my opinion


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## Guategringo (Nov 9, 2012)

GARYJ65 said:


> I agree with You, for me, bribing is not, by any chance an option
> As You said, it's my opinion


Gary I respect your opinion as well as that of Isla, but I find it hard to believe you have never greased the palms of a policeman or as a contractor the hands of a person at the Muni or some other place. As with you, this is just my opinion. Of the 20 years I have been in the region I have had to it three or four times, but for me at that time it was a cost of doing business.


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## Guategringo (Nov 9, 2012)

Isla Verde said:


> Sorry to hear about your kidnapping experience - it must have been horrible!
> 
> I agree that every time we pay a bribe, we are helping to encourage corruption. If there are other ways to take care of business (like getting a residence visa from INM, for example), then that's the way we should do things, especially as guests living in Mexico. This is my opinion, of course, and others on the board may, and no doubt will, disagree with me, but isn't that what a forum like this is for, to share our different points of view?


Isla I respect what you are saying completely. Before I came to Latin America this type of transaction never entered by mind. BUT after owning my own business you tend to run into situations that can be solved easier and quicker with some grease. righ or wrong is up to the individual I just know it works.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Guategringo said:


> Gary I respect your opinion as well as that of Isla, but I find it hard to believe you have never greased the palms of a policeman or as a contractor the hands of a person at the Muni or some other place. As with you, this is just my opinion. Of the 20 years I have been in the region I have had to it three or four times, but for me at that time it was a cost of doing business.


Since I don't have a car or own property here or run a business, that could explain why I've never been asked for a "contribution" from anyone.


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

Guategringo said:


> Gary I respect your opinion as well as that of Isla, but I find it hard to believe you have never greased the palms of a policeman or as a contractor the hands of a person at the Muni or some other place. As with you, this is just my opinion. Of the 20 years I have been in the region I have had to it three or four times, but for me at that time it was a cost of doing business.


Hopefully we are meeting soon for a beber ( or 3) and we'll be able to chat about this.
And no, I don't grease municipal or federal or any authority, over my death body!
Even being a contractor. Those people do not rule, people like me say how to do things!


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

GARYJ65 said:


> Hopefully we are meeting soon for a beber ( or 3) and we'll be able to chat about this.
> And no, I don't grease municipal or federal or any authority, over my death body!
> Even being a contractor. Those people do not rule, people like me say how to do things!


I ment beer
Darn corrector!


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

GARYJ65 said:


> I ment beer
> Darn corrector!


Do as I do and just turn the d--n spell check off!


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## TamiJ (Apr 8, 2010)

I can't say that surprises me.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Just a reminder to all posters that throwing bricks, even metaphorical ones, are not allowed on the Expat Forum. Please check out point #1 in the forum Rules listed at the top of this page.


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## pappabee (Jun 22, 2010)

I agree that the cost of doing business sometimes entails paying a little grease to somebody. This is been happening all over the world for as long as anybody can remember. Roman citizens stayed out of the Army by paying someone to take their place. I think that I think that's about as far back as you need to go. 

The New York and Chicago mobster in the 20s and 30s made an awful lot of money by controlling who bought what from whom the New York mob controlled what went on and off the New York docs so much so that during World War II the United States government had to pay the mob to let ships come come and go.

As far as pointing fingers at people or as someone put it throwing bricks even verbal ones. Someone once told me that a sign of ignorance is a will is a lack of consideration of other people. I hate to say it that I've been ignorant periodically in my life, and it still hasn't got me any further. So the day I try very hard that if I'm going to say something nasty somebody's I'm going to try very hard to say with a smile.


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## kcowan (Jul 24, 2010)

We have tipped the transito on several occasions when we wanted to get going to our destination. Both times were around Christmas the first year that we were here with our foreign-plated car (2008). The idea of tipping 200 pesos versus travelling to a town in the boonies to pay 150 pesos seemed a good tradeoff. None in more recent times. Could have to do with a change in local government?

We also tipped the INM indirectly through our handler in previous years. This year we did not use a handler. That resulted in a couple of extra trips to the INM office. We thought it was a good tradeoff.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

kcowan said:


> We also tipped the INM indirectly through our handler in previous years. This year we did not use a handler. That resulted in a couple of extra trips to the INM office. We thought it was a good tradeoff.


I wouldn't call having a "handler" indirectly "tipping" INM. Isn't it more like paying for services rendered, like standing in several lines and dealing with the paperwork for you?


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

While it is true that corruption and bribes have been with us since the beginning of times, the only way to end them is to NOT participate.

It's not nice, nor efficient, educated or funny to participate in bribing anyone
Not because many people does it, it makes it less wicked
And giving excuses as to saving time, making things expedite...etc. Does not work either
Changing names, greasing, etc, it's not funny either
If we really want to participate in improving this world, among other things, we should really do things the right way
No one has the right to bribe me if I am correct
At last; I have a daughter and I would not teach her that bribing is correct sometimes

(My daughter is soon to graduate as a lawyer, black belt 3rd Dan, does not drink, smoke, or do drugs,I think it's because of a correct upbringing)


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## geaaronson (Apr 4, 2013)

Isla Verde said:


> I wouldn't call having a "handler" indirectly "tipping" INM. Isn't it more like paying for services rendered, like standing in several lines and dealing with the paperwork for you?


I was stopped by the DF Iztapalapa police the first day I drove into DF. I had bolted out of a red light with 6 other cars and was fined for out of registration vehicle. What I did not know at the time and neither did the cop was that I was actually in good registration. I had registered the car the third week of July, 2006 at the Matamoros checkpoint and later brought the car to DF in late spring. Usually in the states, registration is for 12 months and I assumed the same, but was shocked when I saw that indeed my registration had expired in March of 2007.What I did not know was that the Mexican gov`t had exonerated all foreign cars from reregistering during that year. I ended up paying 1,000 MXN directly to the police office. He was particularly gracious.


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

geaaronson said:


> I was stopped by the DF Iztapalapa police the first day I drove into DF. I had bolted out of a red light with 6 other cars and was fined for out of registration vehicle. What I did not know at the time and neither did the cop was that I was actually in good registration. I had registered the car the third week of July, 2006 at the Matamoros checkpoint and later brought the car to DF in late spring. Usually in the states, registration is for 12 months and I assumed the same, but was shocked when I saw that indeed my registration had expired in March of 2007.What I did not know was that the Mexican gov`t had exonerated all foreign cars from reregistering during that year. I ended up paying 1,000 MXN directly to the police office. He was particularly gracious.


You did not pay him, you bribed him and participated in a corruption act, let's call things by their proper names


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## kcowan (Jul 24, 2010)

Isla Verde said:


> I wouldn't call having a "handler" indirectly "tipping" INM. Isn't it more like paying for services rendered, like standing in several lines and dealing with the paperwork for you?


Well our former handler was there while we were getting our paperwork done and we observed him getting preferential treatment every time, as in not needing a number. I doubt that it was because of his sparkling personality...


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

Discussing how to break the law in Mexico isn't something this web forum should be supporting. It's criminal activity.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

GARYJ65 said:


> While it is true that corruption and bribes have been with us since the beginning of times, the only way to end them is to NOT participate.
> 
> It's not nice, nor efficient, educated or funny to participate in bribing anyone
> Not because many people does it, it makes it less wicked
> ...


You asking to do anything is usually not the case. Being told you need to pay sometimes is the case and no matter how moral you are the safe thing to do is go along and feel safety is before high morals and stuborn non compliance. Do you actually have a car and leave the city sometimes? The smart thing to do is read the situation and leave morals out of it for your own good.

Diario La Opinin - Colombia - Arrestados todos los policas en dos municipios de Mxico

Durango, Mexico. (AFP) | January 19, 2013
" Two municipalities in northern Mexico stayed the weekend without local police after 158 soldiers, including two security chiefs were arrested for ties to criminal organizations and participate in kidnappings, the state prosecutor said.

The two municipal police chiefs and 47 soldiers of the municipality of Lerdo and Gomez Palacio adjacent 109, both in the state of Durango (north), were arrested on Friday in a joint operation by the army and state authorities, told AFP Fragoso Sonia de la Garza, state prosecutor.

These "policemen are part of a structure within organized crime" and among them are those who were directly involved in kidnappings, the official said.

Another 145 Gómez Palacio municipal police had been killed in November and the rest of the active elements in the two locations, numbering about 500,000, were separated from their surveillance work to undergo training.

Lerdo and Gomez Palacio is located in a region known as the Laguna District, an area important livestock and dairy production, where for three years soared abductions, disappearances and killings.

The prosecutor explained that the two towns were the site last week and commercial bank robberies committed by an organized crime group as leverage against the authorities for having ordered them to withdraw the weapons to be submitted to the police investigation.

Some police arrested now confessed that "a criminal group that was determined to carry out assaults and actions for the public felt it was a necessity armed local police," said de la Garza.

The prosecutor said that the arming of the police is under investigation and that as long as necessary the state police and the army will take care of the safety of these two locations.

The violence is exacerbated in recent months in northern Durango, where the Sinaloa cartel controls illegal activities like drug trafficking and maintains an internal war.

Disputes between criminal organizations, often in collusion with local authorities, and militarized offensive launched by the federal government in December 2006, until late 2012 left 70,000 dead and 25,000 missing."


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

AlanMexicali said:


> You asking to do anything is usually not the case. Being told you need to pay sometimes is the case and no matter how moral you are the safe thing to do is go along and feel safety is before high morals and stuborn non compliance. Do you actually have a car and leave the city sometimes? The smart thing to do is read the situation and leave morals out of it for your own good.
> 
> Diario La Opinin - Colombia - Arrestados todos los policas en dos municipios de Mxico
> 
> ...


Seems to me that we are talking about two different things: 
One thing is to get mugged or robbed by criminals that may be working as police men or any other type of armed officers and be street smart and stay alive and the other is bribe, grease or whatever way we call it, the latter is participating in an illegal act and sometimes, as stated in this thread, justify it and possibly brag about it.
I've been kidnapped once and know what you mean and agree with staying alive in a dangerous situation, very different than trying to get some papers faster or paying someone off to let us go for passing a red light. 
Bribing is not funny, is not amusing, is not to be tolerated. And as we are in a forum from Mexico expats, it would be even more avoided as foreigners


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

AlanMexicali said:


> You asking to do anything is usually not the case. Being told you need to pay sometimes is the case and no matter how moral you are the safe thing to do is go along and feel safety is before high morals and stuborn non compliance. Do you actually have a car and leave the city sometimes? The smart thing to do is read the situation and leave morals out of it for your own good.
> 
> Diario La Opinin - Colombia - Arrestados todos los policas en dos municipios de Mxico
> 
> ...


And yes, I do have a car, pick up truck and various vehicles and do leave the city and travel on highways, but these guys are NOT going to get their hands on one of my pesos!


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

GARYJ65 said:


> And yes, I do have a car, pick up truck and various vehicles and do leave the city and travel on highways, but these guys are NOT going to get their hands on one of my pesos!


Good for you!


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## 146028 (Nov 16, 2011)

Guategringo said:


> Isla I respect what you are saying completely. Before I came to Latin America this type of transaction never entered by mind. BUT after owning my own business you tend to run into situations that can be solved easier and quicker with some grease. *righ or wrong is up to the individual I just know it works*.


Really? Right or wrong is up to the individual?

What world do you live in where breaking the law is a subjective matter?

I can't believe some of you are actually trying to defend bribery by saying "everyone does it, no big deal" or "it's been done for ages, I'm not the first one".

By committing corruption, you're contributing towards a system that harms the average citizen. All the problems in Mexico can be reduced to a dysfunctional government where those in a position of power only care about money and their own interests, and by giving them money you're only encouraging this kind of behaviour.

Did you ever stop to think about the people who can't afford to pay bribes? I mean, why would bureaucrats care about getting paper work done for regular people, they aren't giving them any extra money! Those can be done whenever right? Have you ever thought about what happens to drivers who don't have the money to pay for a mordida?

Illegally paying your way through things is not something available to everyone, it is an abuse of the system.


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## Guategringo (Nov 9, 2012)

polynomial said:


> Really? Right or wrong is up to the individual?
> 
> What world do you live in where breaking the law is a subjective matter?
> 
> ...


Polynomial,
I live in the same world as do the millions of people living in Mexico, as I did with the 14 million in Guatemala for 20 years. In society many things are not available to everyone. I cannot afford a Mercedes Benz vehicle and I am sure others cannot afford the 2005 Chevy Blazer I own. Some people live in ritzy homes on golf courses or overlooking the ocean and others live in homes made of corregated metal and cardboard. If those nice cars or homes are not available to everyone, does it mean the people with them are abusing the system? No, do not fault me because I had 300 pesos to pay a mordida when someone else does not have 300 pesos for food. I earned the money and have the right to use as I chose. 

Some people have read my posts on this thread and think I am bragging about greasing the palms of someone or paying a mordida or whatever you want to call it. Contrary to their belief I am justing stating the facts. I knew at the time that money would help the situation I found myself in and I opted to use that option. However, I would never in a million years consider doing that in the U.S. because it is, on the surface, not something people accept. I would wager that if you ask the average Mexican citizen, Gary not included, they would first tell you it happens frequently and if they had the money and were in that situation they would pay it to make their life easier. 

Condoning it, no, stating a fact that it takes place, yes. Stating I have done it does not mean I am bragging about.


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## pappabee (Jun 22, 2010)

I hate to say this but I think that many of you are missing the point. This topic started out about giving bribes and the poster said that they never gave bribes and was very proud that their daughter didn't nor wouldn't do it.

What we need to do is to first define what a bribe is. According to "Dictonary.com" the second definition of "Bribe" _ is anything given or serving to persuade or induce:_ . So a bribe is not necessarily about money. "Bobby if you eat your beans you can have desert". “Mary if you get good grades you'll be able to go to the dance tomorrow."

So you see it’s not as simple as you might think. The clean hands might just have gotten a little dirty. 

Now for the major point, bribes exist in post societies and because of this we all must decide how we want to handle each and every opportunity. Tips are in many cases a form of a bribe. The porter who takes your bags into your room rather than just leaving them at the door is giving you extra service. Does he deserve a better tip? Your decision.

The cop who pulls you over for running the red light and you offer him a tip not to write you a ticket. Does he deserve a tip? Your decision. 

I tell the cabby to drive as fast as possible because if I miss my plane I will miss the birth of my baby. He gets a ticket. Does he deserve a better tip? My decision.

We all know the answers and what we’re supposed to do, but will we? We are faced with chances to make those decisions often in our daily lives.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

What I see as some people not understanding the areas here are all different and the status quo changes from time to time and area to area and being a member of a certain group has advantages and disadvatntages. If your area and your situation is such that mordida is not as common as other areas or the security and non security varies I would assume no two experiences can be similar and security is always a concern here as the main thing is to understand where you are and what is normal.

Years ago it was much more common to get asked "Do you want to help us out?" Now in some areas it is considered asking too much as things have been brought to the surface and it is not tollerated. Here in San Luis Potosi, as in Queretaro, the area is secure compared to lets say Zacatecas, Sinaloa, Nuevo Leon etc. and when you find yourself being asked to "help out" you might not find yourself as secure as where I live and it might be best to pay and have the whole thing over in a couple of minutes instead of "acting the hero" and giving those asking a second though about what to do next. So giving advice of what to do in your situation might be bad advice depending where you are and who you might be dealing with.

Over the last years it is less common for criminals to be stopping people on the roads dressed as police and driving vehicles made up as police vehicles but it was not that long ago to hear of this happening almost daily. I presume the many more check points and arrests have slowed this sort of criminal activity down considerable.

In the late 2000s in Mexicali people I would be chatting with in the street and I would see a carvan of Federal Police trucks with lights and sirens going and they would say."I wonder if those are real Federal Police or the bad guys going to a fight?" Seeing 5 or 6 pickups doing this was almost a daily thing after 2006 there for a few years. 

It all depends on your experiences and understanding of what can and did and does happen here at times in some places. Keeping your head in the sand and acting like you know it all and are somehow immune to it only shows that your experiences are limited to minor things that did not give you a real good insight into security matters that can keep you safe and out of a potentially ugly situation.

Telling people they are corrupt and not smart for giving in is not good advice and just shows a type of ignorance that others know what their experiences that might not do not line up with this type of thinking/attitude and security and rational actions do. IMO 


People who base their experiences on doing what they think is smart has not relationship to others who have their own idea what is the smart thing to do. If you feel right so be it and if others feel right that is their right. Telling others they are corrupt is stupid IMO. Alan


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## kcowan (Jul 24, 2010)

Proselytizers appear in every venue. Best to treat them for what they are.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

kcowan said:


> Proselytizers appear in every venue. Best to treat them for what they are.


Indeed they do, and for both sides of the issue in question!


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## 146028 (Nov 16, 2011)

Guategringo said:


> Polynomial,
> I cannot afford a Mercedes Benz vehicle and I am sure others cannot afford the 2005 Chevy Blazer I own.


How is talking about cars relevant? Is owning a Mercedes Benz illegal?
Because as far as I know, paying bribes is illegal in Mexico.



Guategringo said:


> I knew at the time that money would help the situation I found myself in and I opted to use that option.


And this is where the problem lies. By making things easier for you, you're making things harder for those who can't pay. It is not 

the same as paying for a commodity. You're contributing towards a system of corruption.



Guategringo said:


> I would wager that if you ask the average Mexican citizen, Gary not included, they would first tell you it happens frequently and if
> 
> they had the money and were in that situation they would pay it to make their life easier.


Just because something is "accepted" by some people doesn't make it right. In some Arab/North African countries, it is expected by 

society that a rapist marriages his victim. Is it ok to partake in this practice too because of some misguided notion that society is 

giving you a green light?



Guategringo said:


> ...since I have lived in this area for 20 years, I have found it to be a necessary tool both in business and personally





Guategringo said:


> I once had to give a donation of US$5,000 to a member of a government agency in tourism to have them make a large purchase of tourism
> 
> product I was representing.


You didn't have to do to anything and this is not a necessary tool. You were not at gun point and your life was not in danger. You made this decision out of your own free will. Where does this leave the honest business that might have a better product, but chose not to do this "donation"? These business practices hurt the economy. 

It is not fair comppetition.



Guategringo said:


> It is not dishonest if it is part of the culture and accepted by the masses.


Yes it is dishonest, don't kid yourself. Even the part about the masses accepting this is not true. All kinds of bribery are wrong, 

but I guarantee you that even those who turn a blind eye on everyday transit corruption would disaprove of your business practices.



Guategringo said:


> I guess I have accepted the fact that in the region it is much easier to get things done and done much quicker by paying for them.





Guategringo said:


> However, I would never in a million years consider doing that in the U.S. because it is, on the surface, not something people accept.


Mexico is not some second rate place where it is ok for you to break the law. The real reason why you would never do this in the 

states but you do it in Mexico is because your chances of getting caught are much lower.

How would you feel if illegal mexicans were purchasing green cards to stay in the USA? It is no different from you paying your wife's friend (or his contact) for a permanent residence card to stay in Mexico. Both involve a breach in the immigration system.


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## johnmex (Nov 30, 2010)

Guategringo,

Did you used to come to Mexico for Spring Break when you were a teen?


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## pappabee (Jun 22, 2010)

polynomial said:


> Mexico is not some second rate place where it is ok for you to break the law. The real reason why you would never do this in the
> 
> states but you do it in Mexico is because your chances of getting caught are much lower.
> 
> How would you feel if illegal mexicans were purchasing green cards to stay in the USA? It is no different from you paying your wife's friend (or his contact) for a permanent residence card to stay in Mexico. Both involve a breach in the immigration system.


I would like to know what rock you've been living under in the States. Almost everything that he has said that he's done has been done in the States for years.

The purchasing of green cards has been going on for years also. As a matter of fact it's currently a multi-million dollar business. 

Please come out from under the rock and smell the weeds. Both countries immigration systems stink. Thankfully there are good people who are trying to change both of them. If we all follow the statement "let he who has not sinned cast the first stone" then very few stones will be delivered. From your post Guategringo seems to do nothing right and you seem to do nothing wrong. Boy I wish the world was as black and white but it does seem to be filled with shades of grey.


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## Guategringo (Nov 9, 2012)

johnmex said:


> Guategringo,
> 
> Did you used to come to Mexico for Spring Break when you were a teen?


No I was too busy playing baseball in the spring in high school and then college to go... how is that relavent in this thread? I am interested to know.


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## Guategringo (Nov 9, 2012)

pappabee said:


> I would like to know what rock you've been living under in the States. Almost everything that he has said that he's done has been done in the States for years.
> 
> The purchasing of green cards has been going on for years also. As a matter of fact it's currently a multi-million dollar business.
> 
> Please come out from under the rock and smell the weeds. Both countries immigration systems stink. Thankfully there are good people who are trying to change both of them. If we all follow the statement "let he who has not sinned cast the first stone" then very few stones will be delivered. From your post Guategringo seems to do nothing right and you seem to do nothing wrong. Boy I wish the world was as black and white but it does seem to be filled with shades of grey.


Thanks Pappabee. But next time let me pay you the bribe before you defend me so well!!!!


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## Guategringo (Nov 9, 2012)

polynomial said:


> And this is where the problem lies. By making things easier for you, you're making things harder for those who can't pay.


It does not matter if I paid a bribe or not in their case, they do not have the money so their life is harder for that reason, not because I had the money and paid. Your reasoning is way off base. Regardless of what I do, if someone else does not have money it does not matter what I do with mine. For example if I pay a bribe to a police officer how does that effect someone who is stopped and does not have the money to pay? Does it effect the economy because the police officer has less to spend because his bribes for the month were down? 

When I had to pay a large bribe for a business transaction, yes I was pressured to do it or lose a contract worth over US$100,000 to an inferior product. Believe me I thought about it for a few nights and spoke to my wife, the priest at our church and my wife's family in Guatemala. Nevertheless, the decision was mine and I felt I had to for the company.

Unfair competition are the monopolies that are owned by the top 35 to 50 families in Mexico and the top 15 familes in Guatemala. They fill lawmakers, presidents and judges pockets full of money to not pay taxes and not allow competition. that is unfair competition, not someone with a tourism product trying to scratch out a living for his family, his wife's family and the families of his employees.

I guarantee you that people who turn a blind eye to transit corruption are the same ones that turn their back to business corruption. 

As far as Mexicans in the U.S. buying green cards. I know someone who has lived in the U.S. for 15 years illegally. Has his own company installing security lights, cameras, etc, etc. He purchased a social security number and green card just like tens of thousands of people have. He files illegal taxes returns and get money back from the IRS each year. I know of someone who works for the U.S. government in immigration in Los Angeles who sells green cards for US$35,000.

Do I condone the practice no, but it is not my nature to be a snitch either.


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## pappabee (Jun 22, 2010)

I'm sorry to burst any bubbles but I was not defending anyone but commenting on the sad conditions in both countries.

As far as "being a snitch" goes where would the US be without "deep throat "? IMHO your use of the term "snitch" either means you're afraid to say anything or you're afraid of becoming involved. I would hate to live my life being afraid of opening my mouth. _Boy would I be in trouble._ I remember an old TV comedy where it was said "ain't my job man". It is the job of all citizens to report drastic misdeeds.


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## johnmex (Nov 30, 2010)

Guategringo said:


> No I was too busy playing baseball in the spring in high school and then college to go... how is that relavent in this thread? I am interested to know.


Because, IMHO, it seems your attitude is the same as US Spring Breakers. "In Mexico everything is legal!"


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## PanamaJack (Apr 1, 2013)

I have been following this thread closely seeing the different opinions and comments about bribery in Mexico. I suspect through looking at the different opinions that the vast majority of those posting are against bribery. 
It seems besides GuateGringo (GG), there might have been one other poster on the thread who supported paying a bribe. 

Looking at this from a different angle I would say most of the people using this forum are expats that lived and worked or spent their professional careers somewhere else than in Mexico or Latin America. I would also assume and that is dangerous I have been told, so I should say I suspect most of the people using the forum are retired and living full time or at least part time in Mexico. 

The exception to this rule seems to be GG, who if I am correct, just moved to Mexico from Guatemala but lived and worked in Guatemala or in Latin America, not sure, for the past 20 years. Here is where I see the big difference comes in between GG and the vast majority of the posters. He looks at this from a firsthand perspective of 20 plus years living and WORKING in the region and most everyone else looks at it from the perspective of someone who worked in another developed nation. The first thought for most readers would be – “Would I have paid a $5,000 bribe while I worked at xxxxx, or for xxxxx?” 

There is the big difference, GG’s perspective is from the standpoint of someone who has lived and worked in this system for many years and most everyone else has never been exposed to business dealings in Mexico. Of course, there are exceptions, such as Gary, who said he would never pay a mordida and I believe he still works and is not retired. Most everyone worked somewhere else and can only compare their professional or working career from their own experience, but not one that was in Mexico.

I am neither condoning nor condemning GG for his actions or his opinions. I am just trying to bring to light that his angle towards this is vastly different from that of most of the posters on the site. I have lived 35 of the past 40 years here in Mexico, have my own business and will be the first to admit I paid small peso bribes to police officers for traffic violations, parking tickets or lack of proper paperwork for a vehicle. However, I have not been exposed to the situation GG found himself in, in his business. 

It would be interesting to know how long ago that took place. I know Guatemala has not been a democracy for more than 25 to 30 years with a number of military juntas running the country along with military dictators. That country is still cutting its teeth on democracy and money often times was and probably still is used to facilitate things. 

I guess what I am trying to say is we should all take a step back before condemning someone for something that has been accepted in this society for centuries just because we might be looking at it from a different perspective.
Remember the bribery scandal Walmart had in Mexico? Before answering think about it. Was it not considered a huge scandal in the U.S. and in Mexico, it hardly received any press time or was given a second thought.


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

polynomial said:


> Because as far as I know, paying bribes is illegal in Mexico.


IMO, this entire discussion is inappropriate. The website should not be providing space for people to talk about breaking the law, how to break the law, etc. 

As for the expat lawbreakers: they should go back to where they came from. Mexico has enough problems with corruption without expats supporting the illegal behavior.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Longford said:


> IMO, this entire discussion is inappropriate. The website should not be providing space for people to talk about breaking the law, how to break the law, etc.
> 
> As for the expat lawbreakers: they should go back to where they came from. Mexico has enough problems with corruption without expats supporting the illegal behavior.


Bribery is an issue that occasionally confronts people in many countries. In my view, a discussion of the topic as it applies to Mexico can be of value. Consequently, this thread has been tolerated.


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## Guategringo (Nov 9, 2012)

johnmex said:


> Because, IMHO, it seems your attitude is the same as US Spring Breakers. "In Mexico everything is legal!"


Johnny,
You are mistaken. I do not think everything is legal in Mexico. If that were the case then the hundreds of prisons around the country would be empty and not needed in the first place. 

I would like to know what prompted you to believe my attitude was similar or the same to Spring Breakers from the U.S.? What makes you believe that Spring Breakers feel that way? Were you one before moving to Mexico 22 years ago?When you get a chance let me know.
thanks


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## johnmex (Nov 30, 2010)

Guategringo said:


> However, I would never in a million years consider doing that in the U.S. because it is, on the surface, not something people accept. I would wager that if you ask the average Mexican citizen, Gary not included, they would first tell you it happens frequently and if they had the money and were in that situation they would pay it to make their life easier.


This statement that you made in an earlier post made me ask my Spring Break question. The "spring breakers" would never consider doing in the US what they do in Mexico. Well maybe some would....

And no, although I spent many vacations in Mexico, I came to visit Mom. Not to party.


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## geaaronson (Apr 4, 2013)

Actually they would do it in the USA as well. I lived in Atlanta for 13 years and saw it on the highway, stuck in traffic caused by 10´s of thousands of partiers....and read about the fornication on people´s lawns and rapes.....so I don´t think it to be particular to Mexico or points foreign.


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

geaaronson said:


> Actually they would do it in the USA as well. I lived in Atlanta for 13 years and saw it on the highway, stuck in traffic caused by 10´s of thousands of partiers....and read about the fornication on people´s lawns and rapes.....so I don´t think it to be particular to Mexico or points foreign.


Partiers? They are vandals, delinquents, anything but partiers. And are not wanted anywhere


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