# Question about racial attitudes in Mexico



## ptrichmondmike

I feel silly and a bit uncomfortable asking, but one of my dear friends -- a female black American age 65 -- has become very interested in my retirement-in-Mexico plans. I really have no idea how black persons are perceived in Mexico, and therefore no idea how to advise her on what to expect in terms of social treatment, should she decide to investigate it seriously.

Any advice or relevant anecdotes from anyone? 

I hope this topic is appropriate to the forum.


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## pappabee

ptrichmondmike said:


> I feel silly and a bit uncomfortable to ask, but one of my dear friends -- a female black American age 65 -- has become very interested in my retirement-in-Mexico plans. I really have no idea how black persons are perceived in Mexico, and therefore no idea how to advise her on what to expect in terms of social treatment, should she decide to investigate it seriously.
> 
> Any advice or relevant anecdotes from anyone?
> 
> I hope this topic is appropriate to the forum.


First of all remember that most Mexicans are 'mixed' meaning that they can trace their families back in many directions. You will find Black, Spanish, Indian and White all mixed together on one family tree. I mention only those 4 because if I tried to list them all we'd be here for hours. A very mixed community. And a wonderful mix it is too.

As far as Blacks and other Nationalities being together, it's so common that most don't even realize it's happing.


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## ptrichmondmike

pappabee said:


> First of all remember that most Mexicans are 'mixed' meaning that they can trace their families back in many directions. You will find Black, Spanish, Indian and White all mixed together on one family tree. I mention only those 4 because if I tried to list them all we'd be here for hours. A very mixed community. And a wonderful mix it is too.
> 
> As far as Blacks and other Nationalities being together, it's so common that most don't even realize it's happing.


Lol...

yes, I'm aware that in colonial times the Spanish had the "art" of racial classification down to 1/8ths and 1/16ths of "blood." 

My question is directed at whether there currently exists in Mexico the kind of inter-racial suspicion/tension between blacks and non-blacks that "colors" U.S. culture and society?


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## conklinwh

I've actually had this discussion with a number of Mexican friends. We live in a very small town but there is a clear bias and they admit that there is no reason other than a real lack of contact. When I lived in San Miguel which is much larger and more cosmopolitan, there was a very different attitude and much more inclusive acceptance. 
I suspect that as with many small towns anywhere, there is at least an initial distrust and bias against any new person that is different.


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## ptrichmondmike

conklinwh;791892 I suspect that as with many small towns anywhere said:


> And that's important to remember -- thank you Mr. Conklin! No matter where you go, if you aren't known, you are a Stranger. We've all seen the movie...
> 
> But once they get used to you, can they imagine life BEFORE you?
> 
> If only...!


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## joelpb

ptrichmondmike said:


> And that's important to remember -- thank you Mr. Conklin! No matter where you go, if you aren't known, you are a Stranger. We've all seen the movie...
> 
> But once they get used to you, can they imagine life BEFORE you?
> 
> If only...!


From what I have seen it is more racial against indians than any one else. North and south.


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## Isla Verde

In general in Mexico, people with whiter complexions, whether they are Mexican or foreigners, are usually considered to be more attractive and can sometimes benefit from this perception. Whether this can be considered "racism" as it exists in the US is a good topic for debate.


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## RPBHaas

ptrichmondmike said:


> I feel silly and a bit uncomfortable asking, but one of my dear friends -- a female black American age 65 -- has become very interested in my retirement-in-Mexico plans. I really have no idea how black persons are perceived in Mexico, and therefore no idea how to advise her on what to expect in terms of social treatment, should she decide to investigate it seriously.
> 
> Any advice or relevant anecdotes from anyone?
> 
> I hope this topic is appropriate to the forum.


I have seen racism in person during my 5 years living in Mexico. It has haapened to me on several occasions. I have been "learning" the Mexican culture for 14 years, first by employing over 100 Mexican nationals in the US (I helped them to obtain H2B work visas) and then by traveling and living in Mexico. GENERALLY speaking I have been exposed to more racial baises through the 14 years with this group than the people I grew up with in Dallas Texas. While visiting Mexico a couple of years ago, my girlfriend at the time, black American, and I received such biases. I alone have had a few Mexican men tell me how they hate gringos. When I respond to them in Spanish, I virtually do not have an accent, they seem to think I am a countryman of theirs and the situations were defused.
These examples are not common occurances, but I never experienced racism pointed towards me ever in my life until living in Mexico and they bewilder me. I do not believe the color of your skin makes you any different than anyone else. Societal differences (biases learned through racism), ignorance, hatred and a lack of education affect people in the ugliest ways.


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## ptrichmondmike

Isla Verde said:


> In general in Mexico, people with whiter complexions, whether they are Mexican or foreigners, are usually considered to be more attractive and can sometimes benefit from this perception. Whether this can be considered "racism" as it exists in the US is a good topic for debate.


Really? "White people" are pale and hairy. Mexicans think that is attractive?

Why, then, do we work on our tans?


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## Isla Verde

ptrichmondmike said:


> Really? "White people" are pale and hairy. Mexicans think that is attractive?
> 
> Why, then, do we work on our tans?


I have been told by some Mexican men I've dated that they are much more attracted to "mujeres blancas" than to "morenas". Not sure about the hairy part though  .


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## AlanMexicali

Isla Verde said:


> I have been told by some Mexican men I've dated that they are much more attracted to "mujeres blancas" than to "morenas". Not sure about the hairy part though  .


That is why they were attracted to you. Many are attracted to morenas and many to large or skinny women as well. Tall or short, smart or clueless, independent or subservient, religious or not, etc. women or a combination of characteristics and looks. It all depends on chemistry and life's experience up until that time.

Blanket statements don't work. Generalizations are just that.

It seems there are a few general ideas that make a stereotypical status quo but from one generation to the next they change and from one social class to the other they are different to begin with. The old Mexican movies are slowly wearing the status quo from the past down and soap operas are implanting new ones as has Mexican entertainment TV with a stereotype of scantly dressed girls all over the place and sexy weather girls. Years ago the main public TV figures were mostly white skinned and recently that has changed to include other skin tones. Marketing and profit benefit whoever is selling whatever. With many more people buying more than basic items now there is a changing characterization that some consumers can identify with when making a discussion to purchase. 

I like being in the country during a fast sift in priorities that affects more and more people. Some for the better and convenience of everyday living and some for the worst were older values worked better for many. 

It is never boring to be here and much more dynamic that NOB with it's franchise generic scenery on most blvd.s in major cities now. Here this is mainly kept to the areas of newer development and the rest remains old style buildings and housing. Even the graffiti painted roll down steel doors everywhere at night are not a distraction because when they are open I see nice entrances and interesting shops and think of them when passing by at night instead, at times.


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## FHBOY

AlanMexicali said:


> That is why they were attracted to you.... see nice entrances and interesting shops and think of them when passing by at night instead, at times.


:tongue1: C'mon Alan, Isla is probably a real babe, baba-alicious, the picture of babe-atude - but I digress!

The homogenization of the USA is one of the reason we could not find a place to retire here. No matter where you go, it is the same. Mexico arouses your senses, sights, sounds, smells it is vibrant and alive a different. That is all part of the adventure. If I wanted the same-o same-o I could move to Miami, Phoenix, Boise, well anywhere in the US and find the same thing.

Viva la difference!


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## AlanMexicali

FHBOY said:


> :tongue1: C'mon Alan, Isla is probably a real babe, baba-alicious, the picture of babe-atude - but I digress!
> 
> The homogenization of the USA is one of the reason we could not find a place to retire here. No matter where you go, it is the same. Mexico arouses your senses, sights, sounds, smells it is vibrant and alive a different. That is all part of the adventure. If I wanted the same-o same-o I could move to Miami, Phoenix, Boise, well anywhere in the US and find the same thing.
> 
> Viva la difference!


I really like traveling here. In early July we are going on a private coach tour with friends [dance classmates] that my wife's dance instructor arranged of Yucatan and passing through Veracruz City on the way back, 11 stops in 14 days. Yes I know who goes to Yucatan in July. LOL We do to get the bargain priced ocean front hotels cheap. I'll suffer going around the ruins etc, hotel in Merida has a pool in El Centro, and hopefully hit the pool after. $14,000 pesos, any takers? Nice people. 40 seats, most taken by now. Includes all passes and entrance to the architectural historic sites and a breakfast buffet at all the hotels.


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## FHBOY

AlanMexicali said:


> I really like traveling here. In early July we are going on a private coach tour with friends [dance classmates] that my wife's dance instructor arranged of Yucatan and passing through Veracruz City on the way back, 11 stops in 14 days. Yes I know who goes to Yucatan in July. LOL We do to get the bargain priced ocean front hotels cheap. I'll suffer going around the ruins etc, hotel in Merida has a pool in El Centro, and hopefully hit the pool after. $14,000 pesos, any takers? Nice people. 40 seats, most taken by now. Includes all passes and entrance to the architectural historic sites and a breakfast buffet at all the hotels.


If this was next year, you'd count us in - keep us informed and have a lot of fun!


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## Isla Verde

FHBOY said:


> If this was next year, you'd count us in - keep us informed and have a lot of fun!


FHBOY, do you have any idea of horribly hot and humid the Yucatan is in July?


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## AlanMexicali

FHBOY said:


> If this was next year, you'd count us in - keep us informed and have a lot of fun!


Thanks.

I also like getting a bargain and Mexico is full of them all the time. He arranges 2 trips per year, 6 months apart. Last trip was to Chiapas [$11,500 pesos] We didn't go. The one last summer was to Chihuahua etc. and the Copper Canyon. The next will be to ?


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## AlanMexicali

Isla Verde said:


> FHBOY, do you have any idea of horribly hot and humid the Yucatan is in July?


Yes and being from Mexicali I only dare the heat to scare me. The coach is air conditioned. Sweating is one of my favorite things to do. LOL It makes me feel SO manly. Most times the beach front hotels' pool will be my squatting grounds. Give me a 1 liter Coke Light per 2 hours and I am good to go to see some ruins. [maybe].

Wanta come? We pass through DF on the 13th.

July 13 to July 27
Yucatan Peninsula and Veracruz
Palenque [Mayan Ruins]
Chetumal
Laguna de Bacalar
Playa del Carmen
Tulum
Cozumel
Cancun
Isla Mujeres
Xcaret
Xel-Ha
Merida
Chichen Itza
Cenotes
Campeche
Villa Hermosa
Veracruz


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## theladygeorge

RPBHaas said:


> I have seen racism in person during my 5 years living in Mexico. It has haapened to me on several occasions. I have been "learning" the Mexican culture for 14 years, first by employing over 100 Mexican nationals in the US (I helped them to obtain H2B work visas) and then by traveling and living in Mexico. GENERALLY speaking I have been exposed to more racial baises through the 14 years with this group than the people I grew up with in Dallas Texas. While visiting Mexico a couple of years ago, my girlfriend at the time, black American, and I received such biases. I alone have had a few Mexican men tell me how they hate gringos. When I respond to them in Spanish, I virtually do not have an accent, they seem to think I am a countryman of theirs and the situations were defused.
> These examples are not common occurances, but I never experienced racism pointed towards me ever in my life until living in Mexico and they bewilder me. I do not believe the color of your skin makes you any different than anyone else. Societal differences (biases learned through racism), ignorance, hatred and a lack of education affect people in the ugliest ways.


I too have a black boyfriend we are in our 60's and planning to have long, long stays in Chapala. I have been there and love it he has not. I am Latina however I am European looking but am aware of the 'bias' or preference of being 'light skinned'. On the other hand in my own family & community that kind of behavior is frowned on.
RBP are you black? I am surprised to hear you had those experiences mostly because Latinos would generally keep those thoughts to themself. How was the racism expressed?
I wonder because I do not want my boyfriend to have to deal with that stuff.


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## Isla Verde

AlanMexicali said:


> Yes and being from Mexicali I only dare the heat to scare me. The coach is air conditioned. Sweating is one of my favorite things to do. LOL It makes me feel SO manly. Most times the beach front hotels' pool will be my squatting grounds. Give me a 1 liter Coke Light per 2 hours and I am good to go to see some ruins. [maybe].
> 
> Wanta come? We pass through DF on the 13th.
> 
> July 13 to July 27
> Yucatan Peninsula and Veracruz
> Palenque [Mayan Ruins]
> Chetumal
> Laguna de Bacalar
> Playa del Carmen
> Tulum
> Cozumel
> Cancun
> Isla Mujeres
> Xcaret
> Xel-Ha
> Merida
> Chichen Itza
> Cenotes
> Campeche
> Villa Hermosa
> Veracruz


It sounds like a wonderful trip, but not in July. (I hope that the itinerary also includes a visit to the ruins at Uxmal, much more interesting and evocative than the ones at Chichén Itzá.) The only time I've been to the Yucatan was in January, when the mornings and evenings were delightful, and I spent the afternoons taking a nice long siesta in my air-conditioned hotel room. One of the many reasons I like living in Mexico City is the almost uniformly warm, dry weather, even during this, the hottest time of the year, a few weeks before the rainy season begins. 

Have a wonderful time and enjoy all that Coke Light you'll be drinking!


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## TehBailey

theladygeorge said:


> I too have a black boyfriend we are in our 60's and planning to have long, long stays in Chapala. I have been there and love it he has not. I am Latina however I am European looking but am aware of the 'bias' or preference of being 'light skinned'. On the other hand in my own family & community that kind of behavior is frowned on.
> RBP are you black? I am surprised to hear you had those experiences mostly because Latinos would generally keep those thoughts to themself. How was the racism expressed?
> I wonder because I do not want my boyfriend to have to deal with that stuff.


I am curious to see some replies to this question, as I am a white female in a relationship with an African-American male (we are in our 20s) and we are planning to move to Mexico this summer. 

P.S. I have been lurking on this forum for awhile and I appreciate all the info and perspectives that everyone brings!


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## kcowan

We have a black neighbour who is from Chicago. He works at a local bar. He seems to fit in just fine.

But light skin does seem to be popular. Our friends from Mexico and GDL all avoid the sun and keep their skin as fair as possible. They relate to deep tans like the native people who tend to do outdoor or menial jobs.


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## FHBOY

Isla Verde said:


> FHBOY, do you have any idea of horribly hot and humid the Yucatan is in July?


Nope - soooo, if I don't think I could live in PV during July, the Yucatan is not a good idea then?


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## theladygeorge

kcowan said:


> We have a black neighbour who is from Chicago. He works at a local bar. He seems to fit in just fine.
> 
> But light skin does seem to be popular. Our friends from Mexico and GDL all avoid the sun and keep their skin as fair as possible. They relate to deep tans like the native people who tend to do outdoor or menial jobs.


Thanks. Is this in Chapala? Even better he works in a place that is exposed to lots of locals and visitors.
When I lived in Central America as a teen the feet (I was stunned at the reaction I got when I went bare foot outside) were a big deal as it showed you were not so poor as to not afford shoes (spread toes, flat rough feet) plus staying out of the sun to avoid being dark skinned. Actually both are _good healthy _choices. Feet support feet (especially kids with growing feet) and avoiding deadly sun rays. Who knew?? :ranger:


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## GeorgGrey

ptrichmondmike said:


> I feel silly and a bit uncomfortable asking, but one of my dear friends -- a female black American age 65 -- has become very interested in my retirement-in-Mexico plans. I really have no idea how black persons are perceived in Mexico, and therefore no idea how to advise her on what to expect in terms of social treatment, should she decide to investigate it seriously.
> 
> Any advice or relevant anecdotes from anyone?
> 
> I hope this topic is appropriate to the forum.


Yes, there is some bias - but not more or less than you would find in any other country. In fact, I wouldn't even call it 'bias', but curiosity that sometimes goes beyond accepted limits, like starring at a person.

It would depend as well on which part of the country she plans to stay. Up in the northern parts she would 'stick out' more than let's say in Chiapas.


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## Isla Verde

FHBOY said:


> Nope - soooo, if I don't think I could live in PV during July, the Yucatan is not a good idea then?


No, it isn't. Visit the Yucatan when I did, in the cooler months, December and January. Otherwise you won't have any energy to explore this fascinating part of Mexico.


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## AlanMexicali

Isla Verde said:


> No, it isn't. Visit the Yucatan when I did, in the cooler months, December and January. Otherwise you won't have any energy to explore this fascinating part of Mexico.


What a minute! I have been accustomed to 112 in Mexicali, even though the humidity is around 11% at the hottest part of the day and about 35 % at night and I am telling you one liter of Coke Light per 2 hours and water supplemented when needed all day and night will keep you motivated. Also small meals and a nap around 12 noon for 30 minutes. 

I spent one summer in Trinidad and the humidity is very high. It really depends on your willingness to sweat a lot or not that keeps some people inside. You have to know how to use Vaseline and such on your plumbing also and cover up from direct sunlight. Do you think hot humid weather is all that important when you save so much money you can live it up? When we are in the pool sucking on a virgin Pina Coladas from a coconut ready to have the meat inside cut up and served with lime and hot sauce and watching the waves we will be thinking of you OK?


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## Isla Verde

AlanMexicali said:


> What a minute! I have been accustomed to 112 in Mexicali, even though the humidity is around 11% at the hottest part of the day and about 35 % at night and I am telling you one liter of Coke Light per 2 hours and water supplemented when needed all day and night will keep you motivated. Also small meals and a nap around 12 noon for 30 minutes.
> 
> I spent one summer in Trinidad and the humidity is very high. It really depends on your willingness to sweat a lot or not that keeps some people inside. You have to know how to use Vaseline and such on your plumbing also and cover up from direct sunlight. Do you think hot humid weather is all that important when you save so much money you can live it up? When we are in the pool sucking on a virgin Pina Coladas from a coconut ready to have the meat inside cut up and served with lime and hot sauce and watching the waves we will be thinking of you OK?


Good for you that you can deal with the hot weather in Mexicali and will enjoy a July vacation in the Yucatan. I can't stand humidity in the summer and have moved to Mexico City partly to escape the horrible hot and humid summers on the East Coast, where I lived most of my life till 2007. Saving money is nice, but I know that if I went on that trip with you I would not be "living it up". Everyone has different levels of tolerance for different kinds of extreme weather, and I know my limits. Thanks in advance for thinking of me.


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## AlanMexicali

Isla Verde said:


> Good for you that you can deal with the hot weather in Mexicali and will enjoy a July vacation in the Yucatan. I can't stand humidity in the summer and have moved to Mexico City partly to escape the horrible hot and humid summers on the East Coast, where I lived most of my life till 2007. Saving money is nice, but I know that if I went on that trip with you I would not be "living it up". Everyone has different levels of tolerance for different kinds of extreme weather, and I know my limits. Thanks in advance for thinking of me.


I don't know if I can stand the tours in the jungles either until I do it. If all else fails "See you guys later when you get back" will be accepted except when a change of hotel is scheduled.


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## Isla Verde

AlanMexicali said:


> I don't know if I can stand the tours in the jungles either until I do it. If all else fails "See you guys later when you get back" will be accepted except when a change of hotel is scheduled.


If I went on this trip, I would want to explore the ruins and trek through the jungle, much more than hanging around the pool sipping piña coladas. That's why I´ll plan my next trip to that part of Mexico for a time of cooler temperatures.


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## RPBHaas

theladygeorge said:


> I too have a black boyfriend we are in our 60's and planning to have long, long stays in Chapala. I have been there and love it he has not. I am Latina however I am European looking but am aware of the 'bias' or preference of being 'light skinned'. On the other hand in my own family & community that kind of behavior is frowned on.
> RBP are you black? I am surprised to hear you had those experiences mostly because Latinos would generally keep those thoughts to themself. How was the racism expressed?
> I wonder because I do not want my boyfriend to have to deal with that stuff.


Theladygeorge,
Thanks for your comment and concern. I am white. I own a company here in Mexico and as such meet many new people in many locations. It is not a common occurance I am presented racial bias but it has happened to me personally from strangers while I was with Mexicans that work with me. I did not see any racism while my girlfriend was here for the summer so it was not directed towards her. That being said, I knew quite a few of the locals in Melaque where we stayed. (I have a facility 8km north of the town) 
My personal experiences happend while out in a bar or club at night. It is common for latinos to open up with their feelings or thoughts after they have been drinking. At one place in Monterrey a somewhat intoxicated guy started shouting how he hates **cking gringos in my face. I responded in kind to him in Spanish and he cooled off. (I told him I thought they were all worthless)
Another example is how Mexicans, once again generally speaking, tend to take advantage of "Gringos" in a money transaction. I have read many posts on this forum regarding this issue. Since I am involved in such transactions on a weekly basis, the "take advantage of" is very apparent and I have learned how to deal with it. But the outright "hate" racism I had never been exposed to before.
I would tend to believe that in your case and the location you plan to visit/ live in you would probably not encounter overt racism biases. I also think that since you both are almost a generation older than me, age will be on your side. What I mean is you probably won't be exposed to the places I was several years ago and have to deal with 200 drunk idiots.: (I went through a phase!)


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## theladygeorge

AlanMexicali said:


> What a minute! I have been accustomed to 112 in Mexicali, even though the humidity is around 11% at the hottest part of the day and about 35 % at night and I am telling you one liter of Coke Light per 2 hours and water supplemented when needed all day and night will keep you motivated. Also small meals and a nap around 12 noon for 30 minutes.
> 
> I spent one summer in Trinidad and the humidity is very high. It really depends on your willingness to sweat a lot or not that keeps some people inside. You have to know how to use Vaseline and such on your plumbing also and cover up from direct sunlight. Do you think hot humid weather is all that important when you save so much money you can live it up? When we are in the pool sucking on a virgin Pina Coladas from a coconut ready to have the meat inside cut up and served with lime and hot sauce and watching the waves we will be thinking of you OK?


 112!! OMG and drinking coke some water & a nap and you'll be fine?? I live in Houston so I must say you have a strong disposition or are MUCH younger than my 63 yrs. cuz I would not even attempt that. It was over 100 all last summer it was horrible. I strongly recommend a lot of homework about sun strokes before trying that. 
What is vaseline on your plumbing suppose to do?


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## AlanMexicali

theladygeorge said:


> 112!! OMG and drinking coke some water & a nap and you'll be fine?? I live in Houston so I must say you have a strong disposition or are MUCH younger than my 63 yrs. cuz I would not even attempt that. It was over 100 all last summer it was horrible. I strongly recommend a lot of homework about sun strokes before trying that.
> What is vaseline on your plumbing suppose to do?


Have a strong disposition ... myself and another 900,000 people. One only needs sun stroke once. That is enough. I forgot about lots of salt also. The average summer temp at 3PM daily is "only 108". At 3AM about "only 95".


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## theladygeorge

RPBHaas said:


> Theladygeorge,
> Thanks for your comment and concern. I am white. I own a company here in Mexico and as such meet many new people in many locations. It is not a common occurance I am presented racial bias but it has happened to me personally from strangers while I was with Mexicans that work with me. I did not see any racism while my girlfriend was here for the summer so it was not directed towards her. That being said, I knew quite a few of the locals in Melaque where we stayed. (I have a facility 8km north of the town)
> My personal experiences happend while out in a bar or club at night. It is common for latinos to open up with their feelings or thoughts after they have been drinking. At one place in Monterrey a somewhat intoxicated guy started shouting how he hates **cking gringos in my face. I responded in kind to him in Spanish and he cooled off. (I told him I thought they were all worthless)
> Another example is how Mexicans, once again generally speaking, tend to take advantage of "Gringos" in a money transaction. I have read many posts on this forum regarding this issue. Since I am involved in such transactions on a weekly basis, the "take advantage of" is very apparent and I have learned how to deal with it. But the outright "hate" racism I had never been exposed to before.
> I would tend to believe that in your case and the location you plan to visit/ live in you would probably not encounter overt racism biases. I also think that since you both are almost a generation older than me, age will be on your side. What I mean is you probably won't be exposed to the places I was several years ago and have to deal with 200 drunk idiots.: (I went through a phase!)


Oh I misunderstood I thought you meant racism like in races not nationality. Yup Americans (Gringos) are not well thought of in a lot of parts of the world, lot's of reasons in history. Both good and bad, right and wrong.
Besides you are in business and money has a knack of bringing out the worst in people...that said maybe the 'It's just business don't take it personal' would be a good affirmation for you. eace:


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## RPBHaas

theladygeorge said:


> Oh I misunderstood I thought you meant racism like in races not nationality. Yup Americans (Gringos) are not well thought of in a lot of parts of the world, lot's of reasons in history. Both good and bad, right and wrong.
> Besides you are in business and money has a knack of bringing out the worst in people...that said maybe the 'It's just business don't take it personal' would be a good affirmation for you. eace:


Thank you and I agree. The couple of times I personally experienced the racism was because I was white, not Mexican.


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## ptrichmondmike

Isla Verde said:


> In general in Mexico, people with whiter complexions, whether they are Mexican or foreigners, are usually considered to be more attractive and can sometimes benefit from this perception. Whether this can be considered "racism" as it exists in the US is a good topic for debate.


It's possible that one can be TOO white, though. One of the less pleasant memories of my extended trip through Mexico in 1971 is related to the fact that I am quite pale-skinned, and have hated and avoided direct sunlight whenever possible since early childhood. Somewhere on that trip, a Mexican informed me that my skin was the color of "tripa lavada." Lol...I didn't take it as a compliment.


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## mickisue1

theladygeorge said:


> 112!! OMG and drinking coke some water & a nap and you'll be fine?? I live in Houston so I must say you have a strong disposition or are MUCH younger than my 63 yrs. cuz I would not even attempt that. It was over 100 all last summer it was horrible. I strongly recommend a lot of homework about sun strokes before trying that.
> What is vaseline on your plumbing suppose to do?


Oh, pshhh.

I am only 2 years younger than you, and live in MN, where it was also over 100 last summer. We don't have such a thing as hot and dry, no sirree.

Part of it is that we get so accustomed to living in air conditioning that anything over about 80 feels horrid.

A younger friend, a navy nurse in her late 30's, was sent to Afghanistan to work in a hospital there. It's dryer, of course, but it "cooled off" at night to the upper 90's.

She said that you got used to it, and I believe her.

One of the hottest summers I remember in the Twin Cities, where we had a stretch of +90 F days lasted for two weeks, was when I was in college, and, of course, we didn't have air conditioning in the little apartment I shared with two other girls, nor on the busses I took to work.

Our bodies are meant to adjust to temperature extremes. We just don't let them, much, anymore.


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## Guest

theladygeorge said:


> What is vaseline on your plumbing suppose to do?




Most doctors recommend a water-based lubricant instead of Vaseline for "down there". You can buy the discount version here: (and if you want entertainment, read some of the customer reviews on this listing !)

Amazon.com: Passion Natural Water-Based Lubricant - 55 Gallon: Health & Personal Care




-


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## FHBOY

GringoCArlos said:


> Most doctors recommend a water-based lubricant instead of Vaseline for "down there". You can buy the discount version here: (and if you want entertainment, read some of the customer reviews on this listing !)
> 
> Amazon.com: Passion Natural Water-Based Lubricant - 55 Gallon: Health & Personal Care
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -


That is a riot! But where can you put a 55 gallon drum of it? Use it as a night stand next to your bed, with a doily on it? 
"Oh, yes, that blue thing is my nightstand, it has a handy pump in case." 
"In case of what you ask?" 
"Heh, heh, heh, glad you asked" Leer leer leer. 
"Have some Madeira m'dear?"


----------



## circle110

I have met only two black people here in Guanajuato and they had very different impression of racism in Mexico.

One was a young, outgoing, very attractive, very light-skinned woman who was studying Spanish before starting med school so she could work in a Hispanic area after graduating/residency. She said she had no problems being black, was treated fairly and outside of occasional curious looks from people, didn't feel she was treated differently than other Americans. She loved her experience in Mexico.

The other woman was not as young, not as outgoing, not as attractive and fairly dark-skinned who had come to Mexico with a "grass is greener on the other side of the fence" concept. She complained of outright racism and that people treated her badly and were constantly staring at her. She was quite bitter about her experience and was going back to the US soon.

It left me wondering how much of the difference had to do with racism against blacks per se and how much had to do with the fact that the one woman was light-skinned and very attractive. Also, how much of it had to do with the women's own perceptions and attitudes coming in? I can't say for sure but the contrast between the two women's experiences was dramatic.


----------



## conklinwh

I suspect that there are a lot of factors that can go into bias and perceived racism.
As I said in earlier post, we live in a very small town, 4000 people, that was between 50 & 70,000 people in 1900 when when the miner population included. 
There is certainly some racism but doesn't appear overt. 
We've seen it in three areas. 1st there is a bias toward lighter skin that seems to imply more Spanish and less indian. 2nd, our town is a center of pre-hispanic musical instruments and many of the craftsman come from the local Chichimeca reservation. By the way, I don't like to use Chichimeca as that was a semi-derogatory term used by the Aztecs for the indigenous tribes that wouldn't stand still and be killed. The two groups in our area are the Janes and Pames but the reservation is called Chichimeca.
There is a very long history going back to about 1550 when the Spanish tried to stop raids on the ore caravans on our branch of the Camino Real. This kicked off a serious 10 year war from 1555-1565 and although a peace treaty was signed it was still very dangerous for Spaniards/Mexicans to enter the Sierra Gordas as late as 1860.
Not sure how much this effects relationships and although most people here have some indigenous blood, the people from the reservation periodically get hassled by authorities including unwanted hair cuts.
As I said earlier there is a bias toward blacks amongst the Mexicans that will talk about it but unclear why. I have done some research about the mines and gather that when the indigenous people proved unsuitable for the mining as well as the ranches, that slaves were brought in from the West Indies but that was some 400 years ago. I do know that there had been a violent insurrection by slaves in I think the state of Veracruz but I don't see how that would effect here. Really think basically lack of contact.


----------



## Gupi

I'm a very white woman. I have two dark male friends, including one who's considered "negrito" here in Yucatán (he's mixed race, from Venezuela). People stare at us when we go out together, but to my knowledge no one has said anything, and I haven't noticed any weirdness in restaurant service or anything like that. Both locals and gringos stare, for what it's worth. 

The three of us share a house in a conservative Yucatecan neighborhood and haven't received any poor treatment that I've noticed, even though we're probably considered a little scandalous.

My "negrito" friend and his also-dark friend were also stopped by police while biking through an upper-class neighborhood on their way to work, and security guards in a store approached them but then backed off when I showed up and made clear they were with me. I suspect they received extra scrutiny because of their dark and "foreign" appearance but have no proof of that. 

There are a handful of black Americans living here, some for many years, and I haven't heard complaints of mistreatment from the man that I've talked to at length. 

From Mexicans, I hear plenty of blanket statements about gringos. It's a psychotic mix of positive and negative stereotypes. They come from friends who know me well or from people with strong political beliefs. It can get a little tiresome, especially since I chose to leave the US yet am constantly being identified with the place I left. If I disagree with a conservative friend about gender roles, it's because I'm being a feminist gringa. If I figure out an efficient way to do something, it's because I'm being a practical gringa. Grrr.

In general, I hear things that reveal a major lack of experience with different races and religions, but most people seem willing to consider the possibility that the stereotypes they've been taught are inaccurate.


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## conklinwh

Not sure about background of Merida as it is a very Spanish city in a heavily Mayan area but it is a large city and think that would have some effect.


----------



## Guest

Sorry to theladygeorge and everyone else for my lapse of levity last night. 

I live in a quiet corner of MX and have truthfully never seen a black person in my city.

As far as "indians" in MX, that is an incorrect term. As some of my MX friends told me the first time I used that word here, you mean "bang bang, shoot-em-up cowboys in westerns kind of indians, that they show on TV? We don't have indians in MX." 

The correct term in MX is "indigenous" for native people here. I don't see any signs of discrimination or different treatment of indigenous folks here, and there are many in the area.


----------



## Gupi

conklinwh said:


> Not sure about background of Merida as it is a very Spanish city in a heavily Mayan area but it is a large city and think that would have some effect.


Among Mexicans from elsewhere, yucatecos are supposedly considered "cerrados"--closed off. I've been told that they view outsiders with more suspicion than do people in other areas of Mexico. They refer to people from neighboring states as "foráneos," for example. I've also been told that the "casta divina" tradition is still alive here, with the lighter-skinned elite protecting what's "theirs."


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## conklinwh

If this true in reality than your earlier post a little hard to fathom.


----------



## joelpb

GringoCArlos said:


> Sorry to theladygeorge and everyone else for my lapse of levity last night.
> 
> I live in a quiet corner of MX and have truthfully never seen a black person in my city.
> 
> As far as "indians" in MX, that is an incorrect term. As some of my MX friends told me the first time I used that word here, you mean "bang bang, shoot-em-up cowboys in westerns kind of indians, that they show on TV? We don't have indians in MX."
> 
> The correct term in MX is "indigenous" for native people here. I don't see any signs of discrimination or different treatment of indigenous folks here, and there are many in the area.


You need to go to the larger northren cities of mexico. I have people tell me from
monterey to mexicali many bad things about the people from chiapas and other parts 
of southren mexico.


----------



## Guest

joelpb said:


> You need to go to the larger northren cities of mexico. I have people tell me from
> monterey to mexicali many bad things about the people from chiapas and other parts
> of southren mexico.


Thanks, but I'll pass. I'm happy when people are happy just to be people, instead of looking for differences, big or small.


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## AlanMexicali

conklinwh said:


> I suspect that there are a lot of factors that can go into bias and perceived racism.
> As I said in earlier post, we live in a very small town, 4000 people, that was between 50 & 70,000 people in 1900 when when the miner population included.
> There is certainly some racism but doesn't appear overt.
> We've seen it in three areas. 1st there is a bias toward lighter skin that seems to imply more Spanish and less indian. 2nd, our town is a center of pre-hispanic musical instruments and many of the craftsman come from the local Chichimeca reservation. By the way, I don't like to use Chichimeca as that was a semi-derogatory term used by the Aztecs for the indigenous tribes that wouldn't stand still and be killed. The two groups in our area are the Janes and Pames but the reservation is called Chichimeca.
> There is a very long history going back to about 1550 when the Spanish tried to stop raids on the ore caravans on our branch of the Camino Real. This kicked off a serious 10 year war from 1555-1565 and although a peace treaty was signed it was still very dangerous for Spaniards/Mexicans to enter the Sierra Gordas as late as 1860.
> Not sure how much this effects relationships and although most people here have some indigenous blood, the people from the reservation periodically get hassled by authorities including unwanted hair cuts.
> As I said earlier there is a bias toward blacks amongst the Mexicans that will talk about it but unclear why. I have done some research about the mines and gather that when the indigenous people proved unsuitable for the mining as well as the ranches, that slaves were brought in from the West Indies but that was some 400 years ago. I do know that there had been a violent insurrection by slaves in I think the state of Veracruz but I don't see how that would effect here. Really think basically lack of contact.



Conklin.

Living about 1 1/2 hours north of you I find this fascinating. Thank you. 

SLP being a 450 year old mining center has some history I have not yet investigated. I being a 6 ft. blue eyed Canadian/American here have had only positive experiences so far. I look around a lot [while my wife is at work] and have so far noticed about 90% morenos of all types or more. La Huasteca area east of SLP, the city in the state of SLP is mainly "cloth arts" indigenous people. There are many from there here now in the city. There appears to be not very many blancos here that I have noticed, so far. In TJ and Mexicali there are more.

I have the feeling that because the area is this demographics little attention is paid to us Americanos. I do know there were many American, German and even Canadian mining engineers here throughout the centuries when the gold and silver mines were in full production. Now it is mainly zinc and copper. 

All positions are held by mostly morenos here and there is not much diversity such as in Mexico city. I just watched a TV news clip of crowds in Mexico City and noticed many blancos and when there noticed that also. Here I can go to El Centro all day and maybe see one or two of us. I never get stared at as this is a huge industrial city and quite modern. Even in Costco on Saturday morning I see very few compared to Mexicali of TJ. Do I feel special or unique here? Actually I feel more unique because of being 6 feet tall and a robust senior. Do I feel anything aimed my way that picks me out to be patronized? Only the normal thing when I am spending money but can't figure out if I automatically look important to some people or something else. When In some smaller cities/towns within 2 hours drive from here I do get looks from the girls mainly. LOL Matuhuala in particular, not Queretaro, Dolores Hidalgo, Zacatecas or Augascaliente etc. In San Miguel de Allende I get snubbed by some Americans and probably Canadians, go figure. We are always there on a Sunday.

In other words I have no idea what is going on in that department.


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## conklinwh

SLP is interesting in that it was where the mine owners and beneficiating haciendas were located rather than actual mining. As such it avoided the mining crunch associated with the 1910 revolution. Pozos is often called one of the Four Mining Ghost Towns of the Bajio. You have another of the four east of SLP that was the source of the original wealth.
BTW, the ejido here has resisted mining efforts because of the destruction that is going on there with the renewal of mining.


----------



## AlanMexicali

conklinwh said:


> SLP is interesting in that it was where the mine owners and beneficiating haciendas were located rather than actual mining. As such it avoided the mining crunch associated with the 1910 revolution. Pozos is often called one of the Four Mining Ghost Towns of the Bajio. You have another of the four east of SLP that was the source of the original wealth.
> BTW, the ejido here has resisted mining efforts because of the destruction that is going on there with the renewal of mining.


Right now here at the old gold mine next to SLP called Cerro de San Pedro a company has stared up mining that promises to do a lot of damage. Cerro de San Pedro is a tourist weekend picnic spot for locals and all heck is going on the stop it. It is just a big enough village to have a 1500's church and tiny plaza.


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## conklinwh

AlanMexicali said:


> Right now here at the old gold mine next to SLP called Cerro de San Pedro a company has stared up mining that promises to do a lot of damage. Cerro de San Pedro is a tourist weekend picnic spot for locals and all heck is going on the stop it. It is just a big enough village to have a 250+ years old church and tiny plaza.


I had heard that the mining was well underway and a big issue as Cerro de San Pedro fast becoming Arroyo de San Pedro.


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## AlanMexicali

conklinwh said:


> I had heard that the mining was well underway and a big issue as Cerro de San Pedro fast becoming Arroyo de San Pedro.


Yup. I went there before the water blasting started taking down the hills. Very pretty and peaceful then.


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## conklinwh

Luckily, at least so far, Pozos is a new Pueblo Magical and a lot of money coming in to preserve the mining complexes for tourism versus level them for ore.


----------



## FHBOY

AlanMexicali said:


> Yup. I went there before the water blasting started taking down the hills. Very pretty and peaceful then.


Do you mean they are doing to the hills of Mexico what they did here in the USA - just cutting off the mountain tops to get to the ore/coal/whatever? I'm not exactly a tree hugger, but that is a despicable act! ("despicable" seems to be my word of the day.)


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## AlanMexicali

FHBOY said:


> Do you mean they are doing to the hills of Mexico what they did here in the USA - just cutting off the mountain tops to get to the ore/coal/whatever? I'm not exactly a tree hugger, but that is a despicable act! ("despicable" seems to be my word of the day.)


YUP. It was so close to El Centro SLP you could be enjoying a nice family picnic in about 20 minutes drive. A beautiful spot.

Here's tourist photo and promo, scroll down a few photos:

San Luis Potosi Attractions,Santa Maria del Rio,Parque Tangamanga|San Luis Potosi


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## conklinwh

The town bought into the concept of jobs but in fact has been a net loss and the gains have mostly been imported. Hopefully this a warning to the other similar places such as where we are, Mineral de Pozos.


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## taniagr

*Brown Sugar*

I have visited Cabo San Lucas, Cancun and Mazatlan and in all places I have been treated as if I was a star. I am a 35 year old African American woman. They want pictures with me, they smile and stare and are interested in who I am and what I do. Everytime I leave Mexico, I leave with a new friend. Multiple times I have been referred to as a Brown Sugar. I think it's kind of cute. Not sure what all the attraction is but I'm always very well perceived when I visit.


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## cuylers5746

*Not the Politically correct answer on Racism in Mexico*



ptrichmondmike said:


> I feel silly and a bit uncomfortable asking, but one of my dear friends -- a female black American age 65 -- has become very interested in my retirement-in-Mexico plans. I really have no idea how black persons are perceived in Mexico, and therefore no idea how to advise her on what to expect in terms of social treatment, should she decide to investigate it seriously.
> 
> Any advice or relevant anecdotes from anyone?
> 
> I hope this topic is appropriate to the forum.


Hi here's my take on it.

First Mexico has so many shades of color of it's people in Mexico that Mexican's are mostly color blind. They have a long history of tolerance and acceptance. Benito Juarez, a very much loved past Presidente was a poor, Indian of very dark color. Self educated, became a Lawyer and then a great Presidente. Not that many decendents can still claim true lineage back to Spain and pure anglo heritage without a mixing with others.

Have her read Madam Fannie Calderon's book on Diaries from Mexico (some thing like that). She was the wife of the first Spanish Ambassador that came to Mexico after the Independence from Spain. She lay's it out way back then in the 1839-1842 time frame. Generally speaking things are so mixed up blood wise in Mexico, the form of Racism, that I've witnessed is against some of the indigenous people (mainly due to lack of some social graces and hygene practices when in public when visiting some cosmopolitan cities). With over 104 different groups of Indigenous people in Mexico, you can see it's possible. But, mostly they're well respected by everyone too. Some very well taken care of as they draw a lot of Tourism like to our State.

Mexico has a long history of people of color, specifically Black, that have asimulated into society. Many migrated from Africa, through the Carribbean into the Gulf States like around Vera Cruz, and even down in Guerrero and Chiapas. Currently even in our State you see some recently Immigrated Black folk from Cuba. They're well respected as these are working in Cultural jobs like the State Orchestra, and even the Director is Black and from Cuba.

Next, you need to know that Mexico is a very cultured country with a tremendous history and the vast majority of the population are exceedingly polite. I'd say more polite than even some great places in the Deep South. When have you heard someone leaving your Dentists Office or Doctor's Office in the USA telling all the other clients in the waiting room" with your Permission"
"con su Permiso". It's also typical for people to wish others in a restaurant before leaving "Buen Provecha", = enjoy your dinner.

If she likes the food, likes to party, loves kids, dogs and other critters - come on down and have a hell of a time. 

We have a dear friend who is Black, that visited and stayed with us in Baja Mar just north of Ensenada, Baja Norte and she throughly had a great time and wants to come back. And this lady has had some experiences in life. She was the first Black gal admitted to the University of Texas in the 1960's. She's great and like part of our family and her kids for over the last 40 years.

Oh, and generally every one from the USA down here mixes even better than in the States. It's more important to be able to have a conversation in English and discuss old times, than be bothered about race, as I said above it doesn't mean much down here.

Enjoy.


----------



## Detailman

cuylers5746 said:


> Hi here's my take on it.
> 
> First Mexico has so many shades of color of it's people in Mexico that Mexican's are mostly color blind. They have a long history of tolerance and acceptance. Benito Juarez, a very much loved past Presidente was a poor, Indian of very dark color. Self educated, became a Lawyer and then a great Presidente. Not that many decendents can still claim true lineage back to Spain and pure anglo heritage without a mixing with others.
> 
> Have her read Madam Fannie Calderon's book on Diaries from Mexico (some thing like that). She was the wife of the first Spanish Ambassador that came to Mexico after the Independence from Spain. She lay's it out way back then in the 1839-1842 time frame. Generally speaking things are so mixed up blood wise in Mexico, the form of Racism, that I've witnessed is against some of the indigenous people (mainly due to lack of some social graces and hygene practices when in public when visiting some cosmopolitan cities). With over 104 different groups of Indigenous people in Mexico, you can see it's possible. But, mostly they're well respected by everyone too. Some very well taken care of as they draw a lot of Tourism like to our State.
> 
> Mexico has a long history of people of color, specifically Black, that have asimulated into society. Many migrated from Africa, through the Carribbean into the Gulf States like around Vera Cruz, and even down in Guerrero and Chiapas. Currently even in our State you see some recently Immigrated Black folk from Cuba. They're well respected as these are working in Cultural jobs like the State Orchestra, and even the Director is Black and from Cuba.
> 
> Next, you need to know that Mexico is a very cultured country with a tremendous history and the vast majority of the population are exceedingly polite. I'd say more polite than even some great places in the Deep South. When have you heard someone leaving your Dentists Office or Doctor's Office in the USA telling all the other clients in the waiting room" with your Permission"
> "con su Permiso". It's also typical for people to wish others in a restaurant before leaving "Buen Provecha", = enjoy your dinner.
> 
> If she likes the food, likes to party, loves kids, dogs and other critters - come on down and have a hell of a time.
> 
> We have a dear friend who is Black, that visited and stayed with us in Baja Mar just north of Ensenada, Baja Norte and she throughly had a great time and wants to come back. And this lady has had some experiences in life. She was the first Black gal admitted to the University of Texas in the 1960's. She's great and like part of our family and her kids for over the last 40 years.
> 
> Oh, and generally every one from the USA down here mixes even better than in the States. It's more important to be able to have a conversation in English and discuss old times, than be bothered about race, as I said above it doesn't mean much down here.
> 
> Enjoy.


Very nicely said cuylers5746! :clap2:


----------



## RVGRINGO

"Pure Spaniards"? No such thing! The conquistadores were a mix of Southern Europeans and Semites (Jews and Moors, etc.) at the time they came to Mexico, where they added a dose of 'Indio'.


----------



## stilltraveling

ptrichmondmike said:


> I really have no idea how black persons are perceived in Mexico, and therefore no idea how to advise her on what to expect in terms of social treatment, should she decide to investigate it seriously.


As a black person living in Mexico for a couple decades now (from Baja to Chiapas and many points in between), I can tell you that after awhile you forget you're black. The only time I'm reminded I'm black is when I visit the motherland. Everyone up there still seems to be obsessed with the subject. Around here I'm just another moreno (which is the majority south of Durango). 

There is a certain level of racism here (like anywhere), but it's more of a class thing than a skin color thing. It's certainly nowhere near the level of racism one still finds regularly up north. Being a ****** kind of automatically puts you at an advantage (or at least exempts you from the social structure here) regardless of how tan you are. The indigenous people get it the worst here, no doubt about it. There simply aren't enough black people for anyone to care. People don't teach their kids to be racist against blacks because nobody has ever seen a black person before. We're just another shade of brown in a very brown country. Heck, many of my neighbors are as dark as I am! 

One proviso. They do automatically assume that we can dance and play football. We can thank the Brazilians for that stereotype. 

There are a few pockets of black people in Veracruz and along the Costa Chica in Guerrero and Oaxaca. They're left over from the very brief Spanish attempt to import slaves in the 16th century. They slaves revolted, waged a guerrilla war that decimated the Spanish forces, and were ultimately left alone. Since Mexico doesn't have the same history of chattel slavery and Jim Crow, nobody seems to notice. The civil rights movement here was about class, not race. The descendants of those Africans have mostly been absorbed by the surrounding populations. You can still spot African features in some of the faces and every once in a while you spot the kindred African curly hair, but they just call themselves morenos like everyone else who is darker than a European. 

Oh, and the ladies love my afro.


----------



## stilltraveling

joelpb said:


> You need to go to the larger northren cities of mexico. I have people tell me from
> monterey to mexicali many bad things about the people from chiapas and other parts
> of southren mexico.


People in Monterrey have nothing but bad things to say about anyone who isn't from Monterrey. They're Mexico's version of Argentine's.


----------



## stilltraveling

taniagr said:


> Multiple times I have been referred to as a Brown Sugar. I think it's kind of cute. Not sure what all the attraction is but I'm always very well perceived when I visit.


:clap2: I had that experience as well!


----------



## stilltraveling

RVGRINGO said:


> "Pure Spaniards"? No such thing! The conquistadores were a mix of Southern Europeans and Semites (Jews and Moors, etc.) at the time they came to Mexico, where they added a dose of 'Indio'.


More like the indigenous here added a dose of European. The conquistadors didn't conquer Mexico. Mexico absorbed the conquistadors. It's the source of the popular term "la raza", referring to a new race created by American, European and African blood. Mexicans are very proud of that heritage. 

A nice field exercise. Go to any large family event in Mexico. Weddings, reunions, quinceñeras are the best. You'll notice that within every family, there are people ranging from nearly pink to nearly black. It's hard to develop racist attitudes when you grow up in that kind of environment.


----------



## Mr. P Mosh

stilltraveling said:


> People in Monterrey have nothing but bad things to say about anyone who isn't from Monterrey. They're Mexico's version of Argentine's.


Hey, hey, hey! We say bad things about _sureños_, but we dislike _capitalinos_ most, this dislike feeling comes from the centralism that have always been present in Mexico, that's why almost every _norteño_ dislike anything from Mexico City. 

But I must accept being _regiomontano_ is something else... 

Just kidding. 

PS: If you understand Spanish, this Carta Blanca ad sumarizes well the _norteño_ ideals:


----------



## mickisue1

Just to add to the mix, a portion of the population of Spain is related to much of the population of Ireland. "Gaels" were spread across France, the north of Spain, the north of Africa and didn't cross the English Channel till the early days of the Roman Empire.

One of the things that makes discussions of race so foolish, is that there really is no such thing; people come in a spectrum of skin colors, bone structures, eye colors and shape, and hair color and texture.

Not to mention the fact that living conditions so drastically affect the overall body shape.

I love it that people who have dealt with such negative scrutiny, based solely on being at the darker end of the spectrum of skin color, in the US, can feel like they fit in in MX.

One more vote for that country, IMO.


----------



## FHBOY

Mr. P Mosh said:


> Hey, hey, hey! We say bad things about _sureños_, but we dislike _capitalinos_ most, this dislike feeling comes from the centralism that have always been present in Mexico, that's why almost every _norteño_ dislike anything from Mexico City.
> 
> But I must accept being _regiomontano_ is something else...
> 
> Just kidding.
> 
> PS: If you understand Spanish, this Carta Blanca ad sumarizes well the _norteño_ ideals: Este es el Norte. - YouTube


 For those of us that can't understand Spanish, can you give us an idea of what is being said? Thanks.


----------



## stilltraveling

FHBOY said:


> For those of us that can't understand Spanish, can you give us an idea of what is being said? Thanks.


I was gonna write up a transcript, but it's too tedious without a foot pedal to pause the audio. Basically, it's saying "this it the north, a place everyone talks about but few people know ... we're tough honest people who put family and friends above everything else ... we built this place from nothing and now produce everything ... we're going through tough times right now but we'll bounce back because we're northerners and we're the only ones who know what the north is about."

They're basically like Texans, just (slightly) humbler. 

After watching that, I really with there was somewhere around here where I could get a cabrito!


----------



## Mr. P Mosh

stilltraveling said:


> I was gonna write up a transcript, but it's too tedious without a foot pedal to pause the audio. Basically, it's saying "this it the north, a place everyone talks about but few people know ... we're tough honest people who put family and friends above everything else ... we built this place from nothing and now produce everything ... we're going through tough times right now but we'll bounce back because we're northerners and we're the only ones who know what the north is about."
> 
> They're basically like Texans, just (slightly) humbler.
> 
> After watching that, I really with there was somewhere around here where I could get a cabrito!


Yup, we're sort of the Texans of Mexico... but way cooler.


----------



## FHBOY

What's a cabrito? :confused2:


----------



## Mr. P Mosh

FHBOY said:


> What's a cabrito? :confused2:


A baby goat... in Monterrey cabrito is a dish made of a goat not older than three months and looks something like this:

http://hotelsafi.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/cabrito1.jpg

http://www.psp-sa.com/images/Fot_Mex-110.jpg


----------



## RVGRINGO

Cabrito is a favorite in Jalisco. There is a particularly good place to enjoy it on the square in Jocotopec.


----------



## FHBOY

Mr. P Mosh said:


> A baby goat... in Monterrey cabrito is a dish made of a goat not older than three months and looks something like this:
> 
> http://hotelsafi.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/cabrito1.jpg
> 
> http://www.psp-sa.com/images/Fot_Mex-110.jpg


Cultural Anthropology 101 will tell you that it will take me some time to partake of a cabrito. I am sure it is delicious but eating goat is not in my culture. Beef, pork, veal, poultry, sea foods - most are OK - but goat? Nope (at least not yet)


----------



## stilltraveling

FHBOY said:


> What's a cabrito? :confused2:


It's a baby goat cooked all day on a spit over hot coals like a Samoan pig. A must have for any large family event in Nuevo Leon. Just add tortillas and beer and you've got yourself an all-night party!


----------



## Mr. P Mosh

stilltraveling said:


> It's a baby goat cooked all day on a spit over hot coals like a Samoan pig. A must have for any large family event in Nuevo Leon. Just add tortillas and beer and you've got yourself an all-night party!


Well, cabrito is not really that popular among the common _regiomontano_, my family has made cabrito just two times as far as I remember... but cabrito restaurants are a must for foreigners.

Fun fact: Cabrito is one of many Sephardi Jews legacies in Nuevo Leon (NL was colonized mostly by Sephardi Jews), and they used goats due to the lack of lambs in the region.


----------



## stilltraveling

Mr. P Mosh said:


> Fun fact: Cabrito is one of many Sephardi Jews legacies in Nuevo Leon (NL was colonized mostly by Sephardi Jews), and they used goats due to the lack of lambs in the region.


That would explain it then. Most of my friends in MTY were Jewish. I didn't realize that goyem didn't eat as much cabrito as The Tribe. Every bar/bat mitzvah, wedding of birthday was another excuse to bring out a goat! 

I learn something new every day. Thanks! :clap2:

And not to toot my own shofar, but I got pretty good at making cabrito. Trouble is, the goats you get down here are too tough and gamey, not the sweet tender fatty meat you get up north. I guess grass-fed only works on cows.


----------



## Rudolfo

Hello all..I'm new here and would like to weigh in on this subject as I see it in other forums and various other places surrounding culture and travel all the time.

Of course stereotypes and bias will exist in all cultures..seems trite to say , but sometimes we all need that reminder. The difference is, that Racism is a completely different thing. A Mexican assuming a black visitor might play or like basketball is of course a stereotype, but pretty harmless...just as we assume in the USA that latino's most likely enjoy soccer.

What does get me is that many people get up in arms over the preferences people have when it comes to dating / relationships etc. I have blue eyes and in most latin countries I get a lot of attention from the ladies for this. As always, there is the usual drumming on from haters who say its because these ladies were fed lies of superiority, cultural domination from the Spaniards etc..but really its just that I'm different and unique to them. Same as a blonde girl in Japan, a black man in Sweden. It's not always so f'cking complicated with such dark history..sometimes, when you have grown up in a society with one dominating look, you are attracted to something new and different. Simple.

I date Latin girls here in the states, and they have their pick in my city of any culture and race to date..so in other words, it's not that I'm a fat rich ****** buying affection abroad that couldn't get here (though you will see that from time to time...ie 60 y/o ****** with 25 y/o chica)


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## adamathefrog

pappabee said:


> You will find Black, Spanish, Indian and White all mixed together on one family tree..


At what point did Spanish stop being white? oO

I guess, like any country, things depend upon where you are in Mexico. Different states with different histories and different populations will be... different.

Mexican "mestizo-ness" varies pretty heavily from mostly Spanish to mostly Indian in a gradient from the north to the south, with the Yucatan peninsula being mostly Mayan genetic heritage. I understand that the more Spanish-genetic'd areas can be a little more racist towards Mexicans who are visibly more Indian, but I don't think that would translate to a Black American.

I was actually pretty suprised when I first went to the Yucatan that no one looked "Mexican" to me, they all looked like little fat brown native Americans (with varying amounts of asian-ness). The Mayans were of course short brown people who originally came form Asia, and then discovered western portion sizes! 

The Mexicans I know seemed to spend more time disliking things that they know they dislike, rather than being plain racist/xenophobic. The Yucatecans don't seem fond of the Americans or the recent arrivals from Mexico City, but they didn't seem to much mind any of the other foreigners or people from Vera Cruz. 

Apparently not even a century ago a non-100% Mayan would be killed on sight in certain parts of the peninsula!

My usual advice to anyone going to Mexico is simply: "don't act like a stereotypical American abroad!"


----------



## Rudolfo

Now Mexican / Black relations in the USA...that's a different story. But you're right frog..most Mexicans are of varying % 's of Euro DNA.

Also while the Mayans were short and dark, the Aztecs were said to be a little taller leaner looking, which is why Central/Northern Mexico has a different look in the mestizos as well as the indigenitos.


----------



## Mr. P Mosh

But well... "Mexicans" in the US are totally a different stuff than us living here.


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## adamathefrog

Rudolfo said:


> Now Mexican / Black relations in the USA...that's a different story.
> 
> But you're right frog..most Mexicans are of varying % 's of Euro DNA.


Yeah, that was my point. I don't think a black American will get many more problems in Mexico than a white American would.

adam.


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## Rudolfo

Probably not.. but you Brits will for sure.

J/K



adamathefrog said:


> Yeah, that was my point. I don't think a black American will get many more problems in Mexico than a white American would.
> 
> adam.


----------



## jojo

Rudolfo said:


> Probably not.. but you Brits will for sure.
> 
> J/K


 Not if we wear base ball hats and say "howdy partner" lots!!

Jo


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## Rudolfo

That's the spirit mate...but its "Howdy Y'all" 

I have a feeling the partner part might be reserved for the gay cowboy community hahah


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## adamathefrog

Rudolfo said:


> Probably not.. but you Brits will for sure.
> 
> J/K


I always got a coldish, strange reaction from new people I met, until they found out I was English, they they just wanted to give me free food. 

Quite a few times my gf's dad would introduce me with "Don't worry, he's not a ******". 

adam.


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## stilltraveling

adamathefrog said:


> Yeah, that was my point. I don't think a black American will get many more problems in Mexico than a white American would.
> 
> adam.


Actually, we get less. 

Mexicans, and people generally around the world, are aware of how little input we had on the historical decisions of our society. Even the Iranians released the black hostages from the US embassy in Tehran.


----------



## stilltraveling

adamathefrog said:


> I always got a coldish, strange reaction from new people I met, until they found out I was English, they they just wanted to give me free food.
> 
> Quite a few times my gf's dad would introduce me with "Don't worry, he's not a ******".
> 
> adam.


I've traveled far and wide and I've noticed Brits and Canadians are definitely not seen as gringos in the eyes of countries we've bombed. The only place Brits have a hard time is in Argentina and Canadians are universally loved everywhere (except on South Park).


----------



## jojo

stilltraveling said:


> I've traveled far and wide and I've noticed Brits and Canadians are definitely not seen as gringos in the eyes of countries we've bombed. The only place Brits have a hard time is in Argentina and Canadians are universally loved everywhere (except on South Park).


 .......... Not that stereo typing is politically correct these days lol!! 

Jo xxx


----------



## adamathefrog

stilltraveling said:


> I've traveled far and wide and I've noticed Brits and Canadians are definitely not seen as gringos in the eyes of countries we've bombed. The only place Brits have a hard time is in Argentina and Canadians are universally loved everywhere (except on South Park).


Meh. Argentina has stupid pronouns.   

A Canadian once told me that when guessing where a North American comes from, one should always guess Canada, as a Canadian will take offense at being called American, but an American won't take offense at being called Canadian!

adam.


----------



## stilltraveling

jojo said:


> .......... Not that stereo typing is politically correct these days lol!!
> 
> Jo xxx


I've been gone from the US too long to remember what political correctness was.


----------



## stilltraveling

adamathefrog said:


> Meh. Argentina has stupid pronouns.
> 
> A Canadian once told me that when guessing where a North American comes from, one should always guess Canada, as a Canadian will take offense at being called American, but an American won't take offense at being called Canadian!
> 
> adam.


And depending on the situation, he might try to pass himself off as one to avoid trouble.


----------



## adamathefrog

stilltraveling said:


> Actually, we get less.
> 
> Mexicans, and people generally around the world, are aware of how little input we had on the historical decisions of our society. Even the Iranians released the black hostages from the US embassy in Tehran.


Actually, I was going to mention this in a previous comment, but forgot. I thought that perhaps a black American might get a slightly better reaction because they get screwed by the "gringos" too?

adam.


----------



## stilltraveling

adamathefrog said:


> Actually, I was going to mention this in a previous comment, but forgot. I thought that perhaps a black American might get a slightly better reaction because they get screwed by the "gringos" too?
> 
> adam.


Slavery forms a common bond.


----------



## mickisue1

stilltraveling said:


> I've been gone from the US too long to remember what political correctness was.


"Political correctness" is a term used to dismiss out of hand the idea that one should treat other groups with the respect that one takes for granted one's own group (ethnic/religious/gender) deserves.


----------



## mickisue1

I don't know if I mentioned this before. But my daughter, living in Puglia, met a group of people one evening. One of the young men, slightly inebriated, was trying to figure out where she was from. 

5"10, blond, pale and blue-eyed, it was clear that she wasn't from southern Italy. He tried the UK, Ireland, fell back to several countries in eastern Europe, all to no avail. Her accent didn't give her away, as she'd spent most of her time in Italy living in Puglia, at that point. 

Finally, he looked at her and said, loudly, "You're a (expletive deleted) American!"

She didn't know whether to be pleased that he hadn't been able to tell, or insulted that he associated her with the policies of the Bush administration. Most of the people she knew understood, as mentioned above, that individual Americans have precious little say in anything that the gov't does.


----------



## Isla Verde

mickisue1 said:


> I don't know if I mentioned this before. But my daughter, living in Puglia, met a group of people one evening. One of the young men, slightly inebriated, was trying to figure out where she was from.
> 
> 5"10, blond, pale and blue-eyed, it was clear that she wasn't from southern Italy. He tried the UK, Ireland, fell back to several countries in eastern Europe, all to no avail. Her accent didn't give her away, as she'd spent most of her time in Italy living in Puglia, at that point.
> 
> Finally, he looked at her and said, loudly, "You're a (expletive deleted) American!"
> 
> She didn't know whether to be pleased that he hadn't been able to tell, or insulted that he associated her with the policies of the Bush administration. Most of the people she knew understood, as mentioned above, that individual Americans have precious little say in anything that the gov't does.


And then your daughter realized this guy was a jerk, at least when he was drunk, and she had nothing more to do with him!


----------



## adamathefrog

mickisue1 said:


> I don't know if I mentioned this before. But my daughter, living in Puglia, met a group of people one evening. One of the young men, slightly inebriated, was trying to figure out where she was from.
> 
> 5"10, blond, pale and blue-eyed, it was clear that she wasn't from southern Italy. He tried the UK, Ireland, fell back to several countries in eastern Europe, all to no avail. Her accent didn't give her away, as she'd spent most of her time in Italy living in Puglia, at that point.
> 
> Finally, he looked at her and said, loudly, "You're a (expletive deleted) American!"
> 
> She didn't know whether to be pleased that he hadn't been able to tell, or insulted that he associated her with the policies of the Bush administration. Most of the people she knew understood, as mentioned above, that individual Americans have precious little say in anything that the gov't does.


I find that the Americans who get as far as Europe are not the "(expletive deleted) Americans".


----------



## mickisue1

Isla Verde said:


> And then your daughter realized this guy was a jerk, at least when he was drunk, and she had nothing more to do with him!


Exactly. She said, "I'm not talking to you anymore," and turned and walked away. As did her friends.


----------



## edgeee

mickisue1 said:


> Exactly. She said, "I'm not talking to you anymore," and turned and walked away. As did her friends.


i'm just wondering, but wasn't his jerk-ness already pretty obvious much sooner?


----------



## Detailman

mickisue1 said:


> I don't know if I mentioned this before. But my daughter, living in Puglia, met a group of people one evening. One of the young men, slightly inebriated, was trying to figure out where she was from.
> 
> 5"10, blond, pale and blue-eyed, it was clear that she wasn't from southern Italy. He tried the UK, Ireland, fell back to several countries in eastern Europe, all to no avail. Her accent didn't give her away, as she'd spent most of her time in Italy living in Puglia, at that point.
> 
> Finally, he looked at her and said, loudly, "You're a (expletive deleted) American!"
> 
> She didn't know whether to be pleased that he hadn't been able to tell, or insulted that he associated her with the policies of the Bush administration. Most of the people she knew understood, as mentioned above, that individual Americans have precious little say in anything that the gov't does.


Prior to his final guess, she could have said: "So you can't figure out where I am from, *eh*?? (Misdirection!)


----------



## mickisue1

edgeee said:


> i'm just wondering, but wasn't his jerk-ness already pretty obvious much sooner?


It was a Saturday night, a group of 20-somethings, and she wasn't looking at him as a possible date; she was with a guy. It started as a conversational topic.

Given her looks and where she lived, she was used to people trying to figure out where she'd come from. Her first month in that country, she'd lived in a tiny town at the tip of the "heel." People followed her around, so unused to seeing anyone who looked THAT different. 

Now she lives in the north, where there are dark haired, dark eyed Italians, blond, blue eyed Italians and all the combinations that being near the borders of Switzerland, Austria and Croatia can effect.


----------



## adamathefrog

mickisue1 said:


> It was a Saturday night, a group of 20-somethings, and she wasn't looking at him as a possible date; she was with a guy. It started as a conversational topic.
> 
> Given her looks and where she lived, she was used to people trying to figure out where she'd come from. Her first month in that country, she'd lived in a tiny town at the tip of the "heel." People followed her around, so unused to seeing anyone who looked THAT different.
> 
> Now she lives in the north, where there are dark haired, dark eyed Italians, blond, blue eyed Italians and all the combinations that being near the borders of Switzerland, Austria and Croatia can effect.


Or even the fact that those borders are relatively new inventions


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## mickisue1

adamathefrog said:


> Or even the fact that those borders are relatively new inventions


Yup. That, too.


----------



## stilltraveling

Isla Verde said:


> And then your daughter realized this guy was a jerk, at least when he was drunk, and she had nothing more to do with him!


If he's a jerk when he's drunk . . .


----------



## stilltraveling

adamathefrog said:


> I find that the Americans who get as far as Europe are not the "(expletive deleted) Americans".


Yeah, but it's like the people who beat up Sikhs after 9/11 because they wore turbans. "They all look the same to me" is the universal battle cry of the bigot.


----------



## Rudolfo

You're kind of Right...does Canada even have a military? No honestly I like Canadian people..have never met a Canadian that I didn't like so far.

The English have done more than their fare share of warring. Might want to rethink that one.




stilltraveling said:


> I've traveled far and wide and I've noticed Brits and Canadians are definitely not seen as gringos in the eyes of countries we've bombed. The only place Brits have a hard time is in Argentina and Canadians are universally loved everywhere (except on South Park).


----------



## adamathefrog

Rudolfo said:


> You're kind of Right...does Canada even have a military? No honestly I like Canadian people..have never met a Canadian that I didn't like so far.
> 
> The English have done more than their fare share of warring. Might want to rethink that one.


But we do it with style, so everyone still loves us. 

adam.


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## Rudolfo

Again I hate to start this argument here..but slavery doesn't really belong in this particular equation. 

Mexicans actually fought for part of the SW and lost. Actually Mexico can also thank the good ole Yanks for at least partial territories not speaking French. Let's not selective with our history guys. 

What happened to blacks in the slave trade was far worse than Mexico fighting a war over territories which they had already fought over with other Native North Americans to begin with. Anyhow I do not want to get started on what happened to Indians here in the states, History is indeed bloody and mankind is cruel.





stilltraveling said:


> Slavery forms a common bond.


----------



## adamathefrog

Rudolfo said:


> Again I hate to start this argument here..but slavery doesn't really belong in this particular equation.
> 
> Mexicans actually fought for part of the SW and lost. Actually Mexico can also thank the good ole Yanks for at least partial territories not speaking French. Let's not selective with our history guys.
> 
> What happened to blacks in the slave trade was far worse than Mexico fighting a war over territories which they had already fought over with other Native North Americans to begin with. Anyhow I do not want to get started on what happened to Indians here in the states, History is indeed bloody and mankind is cruel.


I think he was referring to a large portion of the Mexican population being descended from indigenous slaves used by the Spanish. I'm not sure about the rest of Mexico, but this was very common in Yucatan.

See also the Caste War.

adam.


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## Rudolfo

I was born and raised here in the States in a Middle class family. I was raised in middle class areas, sometimes times were rough for us. But I was among whites and blacks about even in my area. I grew up with Black culture , understand it very well. I have seen hate from literall Klansmen on one side and I've seen hate from blacks as well, and on both sides its usually the innocent folks who get caught in the middle. 

I know that most Americans are easily pigeon holed as Bush loving, xenophobes, but it's simply not true. For evey example of a ******* ******, you can show many more that are far more open minded, ordinary , 9-5 individuals.

Too often people love to take the few examples that fit their stereoype and use them over and over. If these examples were true we would all be horrible bigots.


----------



## Rudolfo

adamathefrog said:


> I think he was referring to a large portion of the Mexican population being descended from indigenous slaves used by the Spanish. I'm not sure about the rest of Mexico, but this was very common in Yucatan.
> 
> See also the Caste War.
> 
> adam.




Ok ... I didn't understand your reference there.


----------



## Isla Verde

adamathefrog said:


> I think he was referring to a large portion of the Mexican population being descended from indigenous slaves used by the Spanish. I'm not sure about the rest of Mexico, but this was very common in Yucatan.
> 
> See also the Caste War.
> 
> adam.


That may have been true in the Yucatan, whose history has diverged from that of the rest of Mexico in many ways, but in the rest of the country, the indigenous people were not enslaved. That is not to say they were treated very well by the Spanish, but slavery was not the norm in the rest of Nueva España.


----------



## stilltraveling

Rudolfo said:


> What happened to blacks in the slave trade was far worse than Mexico fighting a war over territories which they had already fought over with other Native North Americans to begin with. Anyhow I do not want to get started on what happened to Indians here in the states, History is indeed bloody and mankind is cruel.


Mexico is a Mestizo country. The majority are descendants of slaves and slave owners. I guess, in retrospect, everyone is but most of it precedes written history. However, the history is more recent in Mexico and in blacks in the US. There is a kindred connection. I can't explain it, but it's there. 

Mankind has been cruel. All of our ancestors have been cruel. That's why we're still here. The weak weak didn't live to pass their stories down. That applies to every tribe still remembered today. 

_Sin embargo_, the empathy learned from being on the wrong end of that cruelty reminds us that the cycle must end right here if we're to move on to the next level as a species. Those that can still remember the pain carry a powerful lesson. I'm sure the other side teaches its own lessons, I just don't know what they are. C'est la vie. So long as our goal is the same, the only thing that matters is that we all get there together. 

Enjoy the ride! :boxing:


----------



## stilltraveling

Isla Verde said:


> That may have been true in the Yucatan, whose history has diverged from that of the rest of Mexico in many ways, but in the rest of the country, the indigenous people were not enslaved. That is not to say they were treated very well by the Spanish, but slavery was not the norm in the rest of Nueva España.


There's chattel slavery and then there's slavery. The end result is the same, thought the labels vary slightly.


----------



## siobhanwf

stilltraveling said:


> I've traveled far and wide and I've noticed Brits and Canadians are definitely not seen as gringos in the eyes of countries we've bombed. The only place Brits have a hard time is in Argentina and Canadians are universally loved everywhere (except on South Park).


AH but sure and begorrah you have forgotten the Irish


----------



## mickisue1

siobhanwf said:


> AH but sure and begorrah you have forgotten the Irish


Heh. I'm half Irish, half English. It makes for interesting conversations with myself!


----------



## TundraGreen

siobhanwf said:


> AH but sure and begorrah you have forgotten the Irish


And the Scots.


----------



## conklinwh

Yes but the Irish are somewhat different in Mexico thanks to the "War of Northern Incursion"
where quite a number of Irish immigrants were impressed at the docks and sent to Mexico. A number decided that fighting another Catholic culture sort of made them the equivalent of mercenaries in Ireland that helped the British.


----------



## mickisue1

conklinwh said:


> Yes but the Irish are somewhat different in Mexico thanks to the "War of Northern Incursion"
> where quite a number of Irish immigrants were impressed at the docks and sent to Mexico. A number decided that fighting another Catholic culture sort of made them the equivalent of mercenaries in Ireland that helped the British.


AWESOME! My pasty white skin, freckles and red hair will finally be an asset!


----------



## Rudolfo

Many cultures have been victims of atrocities at some point in time.

Matter of fact, these days people (media, education systems etc) put a racial face on everything which I think can serves to hold us back. I mean If Indian tribes slaughtered and raped one another, well that's just how they rolled..if Europeans since the beginning of time have killed, raped and burned each other at the stake well..that's just what Europeans do to each other. As soon as you cross oceans and the "enemy" looks different from you, now we talk about the racial element and that said atrocities were done out of some other motives..and really what motives all men then and now? Gold...power..women...conquest..it's just what we do.


----------



## 009

most Mexicans automatically think whites are wealthier, more attractive, more educated etc


----------



## 009

mickisue1 said:


> AWESOME! My pasty white skin, freckles and red hair will finally be an asset!


gingers arent included, sorry lol


----------



## surfrider

RPBHaas said:


> I have seen racism in person during my 5 years living in Mexico. It has haapened to me on several occasions. I have been "learning" the Mexican culture for 14 years, first by employing over 100 Mexican nationals in the US (I helped them to obtain H2B work visas) and then by traveling and living in Mexico. GENERALLY speaking I have been exposed to more racial baises through the 14 years with this group than the people I grew up with in Dallas Texas. While visiting Mexico a couple of years ago, my girlfriend at the time, black American, and I received such biases. I alone have had a few Mexican men tell me how they hate gringos. When I respond to them in Spanish, I virtually do not have an accent, they seem to think I am a countryman of theirs and the situations were defused.
> These examples are not common occurances, but I never experienced racism pointed towards me ever in my life until living in Mexico and they bewilder me. I do not believe the color of your skin makes you any different than anyone else. Societal differences (biases learned through racism), ignorance, hatred and a lack of education affect people in the ugliest ways.



I agree with your thoughts completely. Personally I am unable to see disabilities or color in regards to a human being. But having worked with disabled people for over 40 years and housing six adult disabled in my home along with giving birth to a handicapped child has taught me a lot. All but one of my children are adopted and when we are all gathered together we look like the united nations. 

I have seen so much discrimination that it makes me extremely sad. I feel sad about the lack of self-value and self-esteem that most people have. Good people, Christian, Doctors, Educated people, it does not matter. If they lack knowledge of their own personal worth and value then they fear something that is different from them. If they could only see the beauty in the difference - but then they would have to see the beauty of themselves to see it in others. As history has taught us, many nations have tried to erratic whole races from their mist. It has been done in the name of God, in the name of war - so many different reasons to take one's hate for their own self and transfer it to another. So very sad. - just my personal thoughts.


----------



## edgeee

surfrider said:


> I agree with your thoughts completely. Personally I am unable to see disabilities or color in regards to a human being. But having worked with disabled people for over 40 years and housing six adult disabled in my home along with giving birth to a handicapped child has taught me a lot. All but one of my children are adopted and when we are all gathered together we look like the united nations.
> 
> I have seen so much discrimination that it makes me extremely sad. I feel sad about the lack of self-value and self-esteem that most people have. Good people, Christian, Doctors, Educated people, it does not matter. If they lack knowledge of their own personal worth and value then they fear something that is different from them. If they could only see the beauty in the difference - but then they would have to see the beauty of themselves to see it in others. As history has taught us, many nations have tried to erratic whole races from their mist. It has been done in the name of God, in the name of war - so many different reasons to take one's hate for their own self and transfer it to another. So very sad. - just my personal thoughts.


and very personal they are. thank you. they are also quite wise words.
as a writer, i know that referring to feeelings as thoughts - and passing that on to another - is not easy.
it loses something in the translation.
yet we have to, and you did it well.

A quick story about bias, judgement, perspective and timing:
my father was born in a place and time that guaranteed he be racist, or he would have been ostracized.
born in 1930, he was blessed/cursed with three brothers and six sisters.
he barely knew his father, a victim of gas in WW I. 
grandpa came home very ill, and endured just long enough to procreate a wee bit more.
(that's ballsy genes there.)

you need to know that the job of patriarch fell to dad when he was young.
his two older brothers went to WW II, while he filled in for them.
left to run a family of mother, six sisters and a younger brother, he had to mature early.
six sisters, all older than he needed to find husbands. and they all needed to eat.
i'm just saying, a better man never walked earth, yet he had a dark side too.

he also never met a blak man until after he had been brainwashed.
i have no clue how that effected him at the time, so i'll skip to when i was young.

where and when i was growing up was not much different than his own experience.
i heard lots of "N" jokes as a kid. we were so far back in the woods, 
i never heard a jewish comment of any kind, much less a joke about them.

back then, i still had a hard time keeping my thoughts to myself (back then?).
when i wondered why hating any certain group of people, damning one and all, seemed crazy,
i was suddenly a minority. i have been ever since, but i won't go there now.

TV had boomed, and the outside world was invading my own world that time forgot.
LSS, i argued with my dad about civil rights and such. 
being naive left me blissfully ignorant what a big battle that would be. 
i kept trying to make sense of it all, and i like to think now that i made him begin to think about it.
at heart, he was all about hard work, fair play, justice and honesty. racism didn't fit him.

meanwhile, i got old enough to go in the army and go to war and learn to hate an entire race of people.
even worse, my own bias was not limited to the people of Vietnam, as in, "they all look the same to me".
any asian presence gets some of my nerves excited, even today. crazy i know, but to ignore it would be crazier.
so i try to deal with it. 

it is a situation i deplore, but i have little control of it.
it tends to spread if i let it. i am a devotee of Don Rickles.
i am EOB, equal opportunity biased, i hate all people equally. at least i try to.
yet i loath the word 'hate' and try to not use it.

i firmly believe that every human has the right to be treated humanely.
i even preach the value and necessity of love in anyone's life.
so my dilemma is easy to see, but not so easy to fix.

so many factors go into explaining why i am a xenophope, i can't do it,
but i can see that there is a lot of it around.

imo much of it springs from fear, specifically fear of the unkown.
any group of people will feel stronger and safer if they are united.
a common enemy makes it easier to unite.

but that doesn't seem to help me much, since my own curiosity knows no bounds and the unkown is just the next adventure.
my own dichotomy is complex, but i have learned that the people i have to deal with may have a similar quandry.
or so it seems. we'll see. all i need is a pair of 4-D glasses.

in the interst of leaving no loose ends, eventually, my second wife hapened to be a black girl from Brooklyn.
my dad loves her like his own daughter. well, better actually, but thats TMI.

there are many things that promote anger, and anger will grow into hate.
some people just have more hate in them than others.
it's hard to love them, but they are the ones who need love the most.
and doing so, can sometimes turn that hate around, but it doesn't always work that way.

with all the physcological, physical and philosophical differences we have,
and the infinity of conflicting feelings and opinions we share, it's a wonder we even talk to each other.
what ever you do, never stop talking, except when it's smarter to listen.

*Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, 
while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay*


----------



## surfrider

Each person creates their own reality based upon their own needs and each generation has different sociological demands upon the people born to that generation. However, throughout the time of man on earth, there seems to have always been a voice in every generation and in every nation that taught the words; "love one another". Of course with the laws that seem to govern earth, there is always an opposite for every element. 
You as a writer know that words vs. feelings and emotions often have different levels of meaning for people. 
So many times I have heard people say that handicapped people are always so happy and sweet to be around. So very NOT true. 
Handicapped people can and do hate and often discriminate against other disabled people. They are no different from the rest of mankind. We are all capable of hate, most of us are capable of killing another person and very few of us - if any - are capable of loving every man.
So the answer to whether or not there is racial attitudes in Mexico is - Yes - as well as in every nation on earth. You will not, I am sorry to say, find any generation, any society, any nation that there will not be racial attitudes, discrimination and hate. Having said that one has to look and remember that there is always an opposite. You will also find loving and kind people who will give from their hearts care and understanding. It is up to each player on earth to find people who nurture and teach them to become as full and complete as they can become.


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## stilltraveling

009 said:


> gingers arent included, sorry lol


Bite your tongue. Gingers are Even more beautiful because they're so rare.


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## stilltraveling

surfrider said:


> However, throughout the time of man on earth, there seems to have always been a voice in every generation and in every nation that taught the words; "love one another"..


And almost invariably, we kill them.


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## surfrider

So very true and so very sad. If we do not kill them then we just take every detail of their existence away and change them into something else.
People should understand that if "they" did it to "them" then "they" can do it to YOU.


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## pstpier

*Racism in Mexico*

True. Some expats think finding an established, gated development is safer. I tend to agree with them. There are a number of developments that come to mind that don't even sacrifice native Mexican feel for security.



009 said:


> most Mexicans automatically think whites are wealthier, more attractive, more educated etc


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## Hound Dog

We know three black women pretty well, two American one in her 40´s and one in her late 60´s and one African. 
The older woman who lives in Chapala told me that she felt less racism here than in the US. She dated a Mexican man for a while , the other two younger women we know live in Chiapas where they are a novelty and get stared at a lot especially the African women, both are very attractive with nice personalities and are very popular.

One problem all 3 had complaints about was hairdressers not knowing how to take ccare of their hair and their search for special hair products. The woman from Chapala found some in Guadalajara but the ones in Chiapas could not find what they wanted.


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## Isla Verde

pstpier said:


> True. Some expats think finding an established, gated development is safer.


Safer than what? Let's keep in mind that there are lots of gated communities in the US and Canada, and probably elsewhere. What on earth are so many people afraid of?

Is it a good analogy to compare gated communities to the ubiquitous malls that have rendered many downtown shopping areas in American cities obsolete?


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## surfrider

When I wrote that if "they" did it to "them" then "they" can do it to you - I was referring to the government not individuals and I was also referring to the US government not the Mexican. Please understand that I love the ideals that the United States are built on and I love the concept of America. What worries me is the individuals who are in place within the government that destroy the very constitutional laws and theories they are to represent. I am not indicating that America is not a wonderful country but just that the government of this wonderful country has done some really bad things and then colored them pretty. Also I am not indicating that other countries and governments do not do even worse. 
I dislike making a sweeping generalization about any type of group or people - just as I have done above, however each and every one of us do generalize and place people into groups, governments and nations into categorical positions for our own understanding. The people who live in the country of Mexico are no different - the question on this post rather than is there racial situations in Mexico perhaps should be Does the Mexican people mistreat groups of people that they have positioned into a racial group.
Using the gated community idea is a very good example of what I am talking about - are not the people living behind the gate grouping the people that live outside the gate to be "different" than they are?? Why are they behind gates? Because of fear of living with the people who live outside the gates? Therefor who is the "racial" group?


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## Detailman

surfrider said:


> When I wrote that if "they" did it to "them" then "they" can do it to you - I was referring to the government not individuals and I was also referring to the US government not the Mexican. Please understand that I love the ideals that the United States are built on and I love the concept of America. What worries me is the individuals who are in place within the government that destroy the very constitutional laws and theories they are to represent. I am not indicating that America is not a wonderful country but just that the government of this wonderful country has done some really bad things and then colored them pretty. Also I am not indicating that other countries and governments do not do even worse.
> I dislike making a sweeping generalization about any type of group or people - just as I have done above, however each and every one of us do generalize and place people into groups, governments and nations into categorical positions for our own understanding. The people who live in the country of Mexico are no different - the question on this post rather than is there racial situations in Mexico perhaps should be Does the Mexican people mistreat groups of people that they have positioned into a racial group.
> Using the gated community idea is a very good example of what I am talking about - are not the people living behind the gate grouping the people that live outside the gate to be "different" than they are?? Why are they behind gates? Because of fear of living with the people who live outside the gates? Therefor who is the "racial" group?


 

Just an additional thought.

Many times people from other countries tend to locate in the same areas due to culture and language. For example in Vancouver, BC we have gone through periods starting shortly after the second world war where entire areas were predominantly German and Italian. Later the German area became East Indian and a mixture of other cultures. The Germans assimilated throughout the region along with the Italians although there are still areas favoured by them. 

Other areas have become heavily Korean, Chinese, Persian and so on. As time went on and they learned the English language they assimilated throughout the entire region so that you find the earliest groups throughout the entire area - not segregated at all. The newer groups will eventually do the same.

Perhaps with "some" expats it is the English language, the culture and additionally the difference in material wealth that initially has them more segregated.

A number of people have posted that they would like to start in areas like Ajijic for the support of other expats. For those that never assimilate because of language or culture they remain someone segregated. Others, that are more adventurous move on as they adapt to the language and the culture and look forward to a complete assimilation into Mexican life.

I think there are many reasons. The above are just ones I have noticed growing up in Vancouver which is truly multi-cultural.


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## Souper

surfrider said:


> I dislike making a sweeping generalization about any type of group or people - just as I have done above, however each and every one of us do generalize and place people into groups, governments and nations into categorical positions for our own understanding. The people who live in the country of Mexico are no different - the question on this post rather than is there racial situations in Mexico perhaps should be Does the Mexican people mistreat groups of people that they have positioned into a racial group.
> Using the gated community idea is a very good example of what I am talking about - are not the people living behind the gate grouping the people that live outside the gate to be "different" than they are?? Why are they behind gates? Because of fear of living with the people who live outside the gates? Therefor who is the "racial" group?


Funny, you say you dislike making sweeping generalization about any type or group, then rename a better question to be does the Mexican people mistreat groups of people...

How or why do you determine people living inside a gate as having grouped people outside the gate as being different, fear based, racial? I just don't like seeing the same ole bad talk about people's choices. Am I misunderstanding your point?

BTW, I don't live in a gated community, but don't label people who choose to. I do know some do it just because the house they liked was there, but were not specifically looking for a gated community.


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## surfrider

sorry for the misunderstanding - I was not labeling nor was I making a determination - nor a judgement about people behind gates. I was responding to a prior statement that was made. The statement was; "Some expats think finding an established, gated development is safer. I tend to agree with them." Now what does that statement really say? 
And I also agree with the concept that people live in gated communities because of comfort zones for lang. etc. And I also see how some of the house in the communities are unique to the design taste's of the purchasing person. While we all like living in Mexico - very few of us live like the average Mexican. We do separate ourselves from them, most of us do feel more comfortable having things that we are use to from our own culture. Let's face it - the two cultures are different and that difference segregates. That segregation is because of the basic differences in the two cultural ways, lang. is a major one but so is food, behavioral habits of acceptability, different levels of understanding and concepts about life and on. Is segregation racial discrimination? The question of the post was is there racial discrimination in Mexico.? I think that racial discrimination has more to do with actions towards one group of people that are abusive or harmful to that group. That is why I said "a better question for the post would be does the Mexican people mistreat groups of people..."
There is segregation within both the Mexican and non-Mexican. But that is a society thing. Even within the non-Mexican group there is segregation - there are sub groups within groups (the high school social high archery type thing) we still have that as adults. That is just the way that a society works.


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## Isla Verde

surfrider said:


> While we all like living in Mexico - very few of us live like the average Mexican.


While I certainly don't live like the average Mexican, in many ways, I live like an average middle-class Mexican. When I moved here, I knew that some of the comforts I enjoyed living in the States would be out of my reach, but that was fine with me. I didn't expect to reproduce the life I had there with the one I was hoping to make for myself here.


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## Souper

surfrider said:


> While we all like living in Mexico - very few of us live like the average Mexican. We do separate ourselves from them, most of us do feel more comfortable having things that we are use to from our own culture. Let's face it - the two cultures are different and that difference segregates. That segregation is because of the basic differences in the two cultural ways, lang. is a major one but so is food, behavioral habits of acceptability, different levels of understanding and concepts about life and on. Is segregation racial discrimination? The question of the post was is there racial discrimination in Mexico.? I think that racial discrimination has more to do with actions towards one group of people that are abusive or harmful to that group. That is why I said "a better question for the post would be does the Mexican people mistreat groups of people..."
> There is segregation within both the Mexican and non-Mexican. But that is a society thing. Even within the non-Mexican group there is segregation - there are sub groups within groups (the high school social high archery type thing) we still have that as adults. That is just the way that a society works.


I do agree with you about the segregation that comes naturally when someone looks for their comfort level. They don't necessarily discriminate against a race, just look for a comfort level for the lifestyle they want. I do agree that is the way society works all around the world, people make choices for many different reasons, it isn't necessarily race based. 
Some people like gated communities for reasons other than race, I know some also like it because they can close their house for months and not worry about it as one might outside the gates, that is worldwide, not just Mexico.


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## one4mandy

Isla Verde said:


> While I certainly don't live like the average Mexican, in many ways, I live like an average middle-class Mexican. When I moved here, I knew that some of the comforts I enjoyed living in the States would be out of my reach, but that was fine with me. I didn't expect to reproduce the life I had there with the one I was hoping to make for myself here.


I'm interested in how an average middle class Mexican lives...what have you given up that you most miss? My son is overly concerned about Internet access. I find random things about which to obsess. I'm pretty good at rolling with the punches. The way we've been living for the past year is so utilitarian that I can't imagine it could be much more simplistic. I only last week decided to let the kid have cable TV for his last few months here. I already regret that as my niece has filled my every minute with Jersey Shore reruns and Kardashian garbage. I can't wait to leave all of that behind. But am I dreaming? Am I leaving that behind or simply exchanging it for a Mexican version of the same?

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## one4mandy

The real reason I was reading this thread is because I do wonder about racial attitudes in Mexico. I pass for Mexican until I open my mouth and can barely spit out "Hola". My son looks like I soak him in bleach and force him to live in a cave, however. When in Nicaragua, i have been met with some interesting attitudes when they realize I'm a ****** from the US. So I wonder how the Mexicans treat someone they perceive to be Mexican-American? I'm not, but I assume thats what I will meet.

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## Isla Verde

one4mandy said:


> I'm interested in how an average middle class Mexican lives...what have you given up that you most miss? My son is overly concerned about Internet access. I find random things about which to obsess. I'm pretty good at rolling with the punches. The way we've been living for the past year is so utilitarian that I can't imagine it could be much more simplistic. I only last week decided to let the kid have cable TV for his last few months here. I already regret that as my niece has filled my every minute with Jersey Shore reruns and Kardashian garbage. I can't wait to leave all of that behind. But am I dreaming? Am I leaving that behind or simply exchanging it for a Mexican version of the same?
> 
> Sent from my iPad using ExpatForum


Unless you plan to live in a very isolated area of Mexico, internet access should not be a problem. And in Mexico City, at least, there are many public places with free Wi-Fi. I have chosen not to have a TV, mostly because I don't want to pay for cable, something most middle-class Mexicans do have. Truth to be told, I didn't live a very luxurious life in the States, so there isn't much I've had to give up because I live here. I do have the fun of buying my own tanks of gas for the boiler in the kitchen and can only get rid of the garbage if I'm home when the large, rumbling garbage truck comes by. And then there are the times when there is no or very little water coming into my building from the street, and I have to make do with what I've managed to store in the large garrafones in my kitchen. That's all I can think of for now, but I've been here for five years by now, and details of the comforts of life in the States are fading from my memory.


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## surfrider

one4mandy said:


> The real reason I was reading this thread is because I do wonder about racial attitudes in Mexico. I pass for Mexican until I open my mouth and can barely spit out "Hola". My son looks like I soak him in bleach and force him to live in a cave, however. When in Nicaragua, i have been met with some interesting attitudes when they realize I'm a ****** from the US. So I wonder how the Mexicans treat someone they perceive to be Mexican-American? I'm not, but I assume thats what I will meet.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using ExpatForum


My son and I live on 2,000. a month and we travel and eat out a lot. When you have a child with you, your utilities are a lot higher - their clothing, their showers etc..
I left the states and everything I owned there with the exceptions of what two suitcase could hold per person.
You are moving to a completely different culture and there will be a lot of differences that your son will be dealing with. But if I can pull this off with a mentally challenged kid, you son will do just fine. This has really been the best growing, learning and developing process for my son that I could have thought of. He has grown so much in area's of responsibility, self esteem and developing friendships. Hard area's for handicapped kids to develop in and the attitudes in Mexico towards him have allowed this. 
My personal family has more colors and nations represented than you can think of. I have 12 kids and they live all over the world, Germany, France, US, Egypt, Turkey - we are like the United Nations. Believe me when I say I have seen more racial and social discrimination than the average Joe. What I see is that every country has discriminating behavior but you learn to live with it and not one country where my family has lived has been harmed by it - in fact the grand kids have developed and grown because of it.
Your son will "replace" a lot of things that were important to him in the states for things that are important here. That is not a bad thing. Replacing one thing for another just means that now he knows that there are two things he likes rather than just the one. He will be fine, just help him along as I know you will.:clap2:


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## AlanMexicali

FROM WHAT I GATHER ISthe middle classhere is small and do not go looking to make friends. Many post from the sperspecitive of their working class relationships with locals, very few from anything more informed on all EXPAT fourms unfortunately. IMO


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## DNP

AlanMexicali said:


> FROM WHAT I GATHER ISthe middle classhere is small and do not go looking to make friends. Many post from the sperspecitive of their working class relationships with locals, very few from anything more informed on all EXPAT fourms unfortunately. IMO


I was going to respond, to your comment, but decided to pass.

WashDC/SMA


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## Isla Verde

AlanMexicali said:


> FROM WHAT I GATHER ISthe middle classhere is small and do not go looking to make friends. Many post from the sperspecitive of their working class relationships with locals, very few from anything more informed on all EXPAT fourms unfortunately. IMO


Are you speaking of Mexicans in SLP? I don't find your comments true for my middle-class Mexican friends here in Mexico City.


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## AlanMexicali

Y es here. most post working class rhetoric about how corruption is still total etc.


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## Isla Verde

AlanMexicali said:


> Y es here. most post working class rhetoric about how corruption is still total etc.


Who posts "working class rhetoric" and, by the way, what do you mean by that term?


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## one4mandy

DNP said:


> I was going to respond, to your comment, but decided to pass.
> 
> WashDC/SMA


I concur.

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## mickisue1

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Alan, are you commenting about the POV of expats on MX fora, or about the middle class Mexicans you come across?

From what I could glean, it's expats, in particular, expat from the US.


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## AlanMexicali

mickisue1 said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> Alan, are you commenting about the POV of expats on MX fora, or about the middle class Mexicans you come across?
> 
> From what I could glean, it's expats, in particular, expat from the US.


 [/I]


I was saying most forums of EXpats I read I see the constant non stop complaining about "mordida everywhere", "Mexicans are totally corrupt" as in all of any Mexican gov´ts, federal, state, municipal etc. all workers unions, Federal Police, Military, CFE, Pemex, Telmex, etc all the way down to the cashiers at the supermarkets and cashiers at the banks. The IMSS, Seguro Social and Mexican DR.s are incompitent and so are all other Federal, State or local institutes including the public school system everywhere in ALL of Mexico, etc. This particular form is excluded for the most part.


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## Isla Verde

AlanMexicali said:


> [/I]
> 
> 
> I was saying most forums of EXpats I read I see the constant non stop complaining about "mordida everywhere", "Mexicans are totally corrupt" as in all of any Mexican gov´ts, federal, state, municipal etc. all workers unions, Federal Police, Military, CFE, Pemex, Telmex, etc all the way down to the cashiers at the supermarkets and cashiers at the banks. The IMSS, Seguro Social and Mexican DR.s are incompitent and so are all other Federal, State or local institutes including the public school system everywhere in ALL of Mexico, etc. This particular form is excluded for the most part.


That sounds very unpleasant. I wonder if these are the same expats who never learn to communicate in Spanish either. And maybe they arrived in Mexico with the same negative attitudes they express on these forums.


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## AlanMexicali

Isla Verde said:


> That sounds very unpleasant. I wonder if these are the same expats who never learn to communicate in Spanish either. And maybe they arrived in Mexico with the same negative attitudes they express on these forums.


It can be 2 things:

So far it appears to be Canadians who consciously or subconsciously have a bad opinion of their native Indians and transfer it when down here {color of skin}.

It also so far appears right wingers who do not want Mexico´s social democracy to appear healthy. They seem to enjoy quoting right wing articles from NOB and then the few chime in.

I need more time to digest it all but most of the same ones are doing it a lot.

The Spanish language thing seems to be not the main problem.

I might be on the wrong track and some came with the attitude, but I doubt it. Canadians really never have to deal with their native Indians directly up there. Here yes. Not all by any means, just some.


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## one4mandy

AlanMexicali said:


> I was saying most forums of EXpats I read I see the constant non stop complaining about "mordida everywhere", "Mexicans are totally corrupt" as in all of any Mexican gov´ts, federal, state, municipal etc. all workers unions, Federal Police, Military, CFE, Pemex, Telmex, etc all the way down to the cashiers at the supermarkets and cashiers at the banks. The IMSS, Seguro Social and Mexican DR.s are incompitent and so are all other Federal, State or local institutes including the public school system everywhere in ALL of Mexico, etc. This particular form is excluded for the most part.


I find all of the complaints about corruption a little amusing...as if it is something unexpected or a cultural difference? Granted, I have not yet moved to Mexico, so maybe I truly don't know the extent...but my entire career has been in US politics from county councils in Hawaii to school boards in Pennsylvania to the US Senate and Congress and the past three campaigns for the White House and any other office or state in between (prothonotary?) Corruption is so much a part of everyday life that it is laughable to think there is any way to expose it all, correct it or clean it up. 

It happens all over this country, from top to bottom. I've witnessed a bomb having been planted in a school board member's home...kids and dogs and mom would have been blown to hell and back all over some nonsense, local school budget issue...I've participated in things on every level that just make me shake my head in disbelief. Hell, I am still involved in things that would shock normal people. So, when i get to Mexico, if I have to pay a cop a few bucks or some official a little something to grease the skids, or pay a little more for some services, at least I can hope that it is helping to support someone less fortunate than I am? Maybe? Ha. Either way, i think it is a small price to pay for being in their country. Perhaps I will have my eyes opened again like I did the first time I went to work in D.C. Although I doubt it.

I'm just saying, my life is too short to sweat the small stuff.

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## DNP

*Mordidas*

My take on mordidas. I've been stopped or flagged down too many times to remember and have never paid a mordida, nor would I. I also speak fluent Spanish and do my best to play by the rules. 

Too many foreigners start with the assumption, spread a lot in this forum, that everybody is corrupt. If, therefore, they're ever pulled over they automatically think "mordida". Especially when they can't communicate beause they don't speak Spanish.

I have found, however, that these people are trying to do their jobs and they usually ask to see papers, papers you are suppsed to carry, papers they can rightly stop you and ask you for, and routinely do. Since many don't understand, instead of the papers, out comes the wallet with the mordida money, which they give the officer and then essentially flea, leaving very perplexed looks on those left behind. I've observed this and it's disgusting. 

Are there exceptions? Of course there are. 

If you don't speak Spanish, just pull out the papers you carry, and the officer will find what he/she is looking for. Sometimes they will take them away for a while, while they copy stuff down, bring them back and return them to you, and you're on your way.


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## surfrider

Isla Verde said:


> That sounds very unpleasant. I wonder if these are the same expats who never learn to communicate in Spanish either. And maybe they arrived in Mexico with the same negative attitudes they express on these forums.


I am lost. the topic was about racial stuff - where did corruption come from? Did I miss a post or just forget to take one of my pills? Actually I rather like the open corruption - at least after working in the political world in the states where it is a Mayberry or Camelot (depending on different likes for comparisons) sales job. I find open corruption rather honest. I am just joking here folks.:eyebrows:


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## Isla Verde

surfrider said:


> I am lost. the topic was about racial stuff - where did corruption come from? Did I miss a post or just forget to take one of my pills? Actually I rather like the open corruption - at least after working in the political world in the states where it is a Mayberry or Camelot (depending on different likes for comparisons) sales job. I find open corruption rather honest. I am just joking here folks.:eyebrows:


Once you've been living in Mexico for awhile, I doubt you'll find the corruption here, especially among the political classes, anything to laugh about. It's one of the reasons Mexico has yet to realize its potential as a great nation. This is what my Mexican friends tell me, not something I've picked up from reading the local newspapers, though I do that too.


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## surfrider

corruption anywhere is nothing to laugh at but I agree with one4mandy - I find the corruption in the states to be as real and deadly serious as it is in Mexico Only in Mexico it seems to be more open about corruption (at least people say the Mexico is corrupt) where as in the states they sell one concept while the real action is something else. Actually I found the corruption in the states to be so scary that I really did not want to live there anymore. 

Like one4mandy I was I was in too deep into the political work that if I never talk with another Governor or Congressperson, Senator, councilmen, I will consider myself blessed. 

I do not indicate that I am safer in Mexico than in the states - I am be or not be safer because of the corruption I do not really know. 

But I am still wondering how we got from racial to corruption?


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## one4mandy

Isla Verde said:


> Once you've been living in Mexico for awhile, I doubt you'll find the corruption here, especially among the political classes, anything to laugh about. It's one of the reasons Mexico has yet to realize its potential as a great nation. This is what my Mexican friends tell me, not something I've picked up from reading the local newspapers, though I do that too.


I may be old and bitter, but in my experience, there is corruption everywhere. Perhaps it is the reason for the demise of our once-great nation ultimately. I cant say for certain. Whatever it is, for me it is naive to think it could ever be eradicated. Often times, it is those that are most corrupt who are most effective at their job...remember Ted Stevens?

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## one4mandy

surfrider said:


> corruption anywhere is nothing to laugh at but I agree with one4mandy - I find the corruption in the states to be as real and deadly serious as it is in Mexico Only in Mexico it seems to be more open about corruption (at least people say the Mexico is corrupt) where as in the states they sell one concept while the real action is something else. Actually I found the corruption in the states to be so scary that I really did not want to live there anymore.
> 
> Like one4mandy I was I was in too deep into the political work that if I never talk with another Governor or Congressperson, Senator, councilmen, I will consider myself blessed.
> 
> I do not indicate that I am safer in Mexico than in the states - I am be or not be safer because of the corruption I do not really know.
> 
> But I am still wondering how we got from racial to corruption?


The subject of middle class in Mexico came up and then Mexicali made kind of an off the wall statement about the middle class keeping to themselves, not looking for friends. Then, after some exploration, we realized he was talking about expats who close themselves off and complain in forums about corruption and mordidas. It kind of went from there...

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## AlanMexicali

surfrider said:


> I am lost. the topic was about racial stuff - where did corruption come from? Did I miss a post or just forget to take one of my pills? Actually I rather like the open corruption - at least after working in the political world in the states where it is a Mayberry or Camelot (depending on different likes for comparisons) sales job. I find open corruption rather honest. I am just joking here folks.:eyebrows:


Let me clarify things from my opinion of what I was getting at. I find myself in a circle of conservative upper middle class Mexicans all who work within the system and are professionals, mostltly master degrees or MDs here in the very conservative city of San Luis Potosi. Maybe saying middle class was a mistake but we have many middle class friends here also. 

There seems to be an overwhelming number of Expats and friends living NOB that think Mexico is still as corrupt as always however I have the impression that it has improved. The older professionals in the system are worried about their pensions and so forth so this might be a factor when generalizing everyone is on the side of influence peddling and turning a blind eye to things.

Yes, because of the system here many high up well paid jobs change as the governship of a state change or the federal gov´t. change but that is the way it is and I consider it a matter of them wanting thier policies keep in place for the ones who are the executives who oversee federal and state policies, not necesarily those administering below that. If that seems corrupt then I would equate it to a change in gov´t. in the US and the appointments of the secretaries of different federal gov´t.s departments etc.

As for political influence peddling or even any gov´t. official still doing this I have a feeling you do not want to get caught anymore unless you are way up there and can afford to lose your pension and reputation. There are headhuters out there trying hard to catch people now.

The general consensus from the working class, I so often hear everywhere, those that even give a hoot anymore to even have an opinion, is that in Mexico no one can be trusted if they are in any position of power and this goes back to the stories all have heard from others or their own experiences and the news but samplings are just that as they are in every country and possibly not the norn everywhere here or now.


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## adamathefrog

AlanMexicali said:


> The IMSS, Seguro Social and Mexican DR.s are incompitent and so are all other Federal, State or local institutes including the public school system everywhere in ALL of Mexico, etc.


It's helpful to remember that we're all basically just hairless great apes playing in a world that is now far too complicated for us to properly understand. 

It's easy to say these things about other people, but it's pretty safe to say that we're all over our heads in one way or another.

adam.


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## mickisue1

adamathefrog said:


> It's helpful to remember that we're all basically just hairless great apes playing in a world that is now far too complicated for us to properly understand.
> 
> It's easy to say these things about other people, but it's pretty safe to say that we're all over our heads in one way or another.
> 
> adam.


True enough.

However, if we use our ability to retrain our brains, the noises from the basic survival portions of the brain can be drowned out by the more rational parts.

People who look askance at "the other" whether it's people of different ethnic background, religion, nationality, even sports team supporter, are letting their unconscious minds do the talking.

That's easy to do; our unconscious thoughts, feelings, etc, are the overwhelming bulk of our thoughts; some studies say 95% of brain activity is subconscious, others 5/6 of it is.

But the people who are less afraid, less apt to think the worst, etc, have learned that CONSCIOUSLY talking back to the scared hairless ape can change its beliefs, too.

There's a whole branch of science, known as neurolinguistic programming, that discusses the hows and whys of this...imagine if more people were open to being more open!

We wouldn't have the issue of the majority of any population insisting that their opinion overrules facts, because they'd know better!


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## adamathefrog

mickisue1 said:


> True enough.
> 
> However, if we use our ability to retrain our brains, the noises from the basic survival portions of the brain can be drowned out by the more rational parts.
> 
> People who look askance at "the other" whether it's people of different ethnic background, religion, nationality, even sports team supporter, are letting their unconscious minds do the talking.
> 
> That's easy to do; our unconscious thoughts, feelings, etc, are the overwhelming bulk of our thoughts; some studies say 95% of brain activity is subconscious, others 5/6 of it is.
> 
> But the people who are less afraid, less apt to think the worst, etc, have learned that CONSCIOUSLY talking back to the scared hairless ape can change its beliefs, too.
> 
> There's a whole branch of science, known as neurolinguistic programming, that discusses the hows and whys of this...imagine if more people were open to being more open!
> 
> We wouldn't have the issue of the majority of any population insisting that their opinion overrules facts, because they'd know better!


For an interesting demonstration of how truly distributed and disconnected the various inner workings of the brain really is, have a look at this:

Jill Bolte Taylor's stroke of insight | Video on TED.com

She disappears into some new-agey nonsense near the end, but it's very interesting none the less!


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## edgeee

adamathefrog said:


> For an interesting demonstration of how truly distributed and disconnected the various inner workings of the brain really is, have a look at this:
> 
> Jill Bolte Taylor's stroke of insight | Video on TED.com
> 
> She disappears into some new-agey nonsense near the end, but it's very interesting none the less!


And scary as hell, to me. I almost had to pause it to catch my breath.
Any stroke-victim family member or loved one might NOT want to watch it.

For a more whimsical thought about the brain, think about this.
It is more universal than most things that any person will defend and support where ever they consider home to be. Sports, schools, towns, states, and we all think that place has a certain something about it that makes us a little tougher or a little smarter, or a little harder at our core, than everyone else.
And it doesn't get much more accidental than where you happen to be born.
It's like family. Your stuck with what you have, so it goes up a notch, warts and all.

And the only way i can think of to get from that to either corruption or racism is to use my own second language (freshman year latin - boy did i pick wrong.) because one thing does link them in a way.
_Cui bono?_

I don't think there's much doubt that some corruption is rooted in racism, never mind how much.


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