# How are things in Spain now



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Well, the recession that started in 2008 (the month we moved to Spain - typical!!), has been going on for 6 years. It seems the UK and indeed the rest of the world are slowly rising out of it - according to the "experts"??! Certainly things "on the ground", jobs, infrastructure and life seem to be a bit better, but that could be the season and the spin from the media.

Anyway, it seems that Spain is still suffering - is that right??? Cos I'm no longer there, I dont know, but I do wonder. The comments on the forum still suggest things are bad there?? Are there any positive signs where you are????

Jo xxx


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## Trubrit (Nov 24, 2010)

As an English teacher of 63 years old who came to Spain to retire in 2011 I have never been so busy !! It seems that the only profession that has held it's own is English teaching but the problem is that a large percentage of English teachers are not in fact teachers at all. That being said, I get a lot of work from companies who want me to correct the rubbish teaching that their staff have received, so it's an ill wind.......
I am just considering starting a customer service business because I cannot believe the way some businesses treat their clients, it's absolutely abysmal, I will keep the forum informed.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Tourism in the Canary Isles is on the up we are seeing fresh white faces on this island, however we still have the worst unemployment figures in the whole of the Spanish territories.

Here we are exporting in huge quantities, Pineapples and People, our population has decreased by 20%, mainly young people looking for work, many finding employment in the Northern Iberian part of Spain.


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## el pescador (Mar 14, 2013)

The uk has a massive problem.
The standard of living dropped but house prices still rocketed.(not in every area but some that didnt are now starting to rise faster than say london)

I see they put out a bit of "good feeling " spin recently saying the uk has the 13th best standard of living in the world ....


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

I live in a large town 5km inland from the coast, East of Malaga. We get some daytime tourism but there aren't many places for tourists to stay. 

Here, the unemployment statistics are just as bad as everywhere else. But strangely, the "feel" of life is very little different from how it was before the crisis. There are a few empty commercial premises in the town centre, but not many. Some new businesses open up and seem to close down again within a year, but another one moves in to take its place. Three new restaurants (with prices much higher than the average for the town) have opened since last December. The academias, especially those teaching English, do seem very busy and even young children are attending classes - which means (a) their parents can afford to pay and (b) the immediate reason for learning isn't in order to be able to leave the country in order to find work.

Public sector projects are continuing, the old bus station is currently being converted into a new indoor market and work has started (after 30 years of promises!) on renovating a very large, very dilapidated old grain exchange building in one of the main squares.

I was in Malaga capital the other week and noticed a large new residential block is under construction, between the Larios shopping centre and El Corte Ingles, so the construction industry isn't quite moribund yet. The centre of Malaga seems busier and more spruced up than ever, lots more tourists around than we ever used to see there.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Very similar observations to Lynn's - superficially it's business as usual but many small businesses are on the verge of bankruptcy having used up all their savings and goodwill. Many workers haven't been paid for months, this applies to both public and private sector.

The exception is our organic cheese factory Quesería Gazul which is gaining worldwide recognition and taking on new staff, growing from six to 15 full-time employees in two years. More importantly the demand for goat's milk means that the world and his wife now keeps goats! Every patch of greenery has them grazing on it, we even saw a couple on the roundabout the other day. It's getting very noisy!


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

It's been a real mystery to me, right through the recession, how it is that Spain seems to have been able to maintain that appearance at least of normality despite the level of unemployment being stratospheric compared to anything experienced in the UK, and the lack of a decent welfare safety net. Of course there are desperately poor areas (there is a settlement of "chabolas" for example just on the outskirts of Torre del Mar, my nearest coastal resort). However, it was there long before the recession even started, and hasn't sprung up because of it.

I'm from an area of the UK (NW England) that suffered badly during the 1980s recession and again in more recent times, and superficial appearances there are far, far worse than anything I see in Spain. Town centres full of boarded up shops, the majority of the functioning ones are pound shops, betting shops, charity shops and take-aways, and with all the steel security shutters down the towns look dreadful. Both the town where I was brought up and the one I lived in before moving here experienced very noticeable cuts in public services with leisure services and maintenance of parks and gardens decimated (both towns lost their swimming pools) and cuts in public transport due to council subsidies being withdrawn. Refuse collection was reduced to fortnightly and where I lived residents in outlying areas now have to drive to a central point to deposit their household rubbish (just like the communal bins in Spain!) despite still having to pay the very high Council Tax.

Here, we haven't lost a single sports facility during the crisis (and we have a lot of them), all the parks and playgrounds have been maintained, the roundabouts and public garden areas are all planted out with new flowers at least twice a year, the only transport service that's been affected was our tram service being withdrawn (but it was losing a fortune and bus services were increased to compensate). Local bus fares haven't gone up for about 5 years, and services still run on Bank Holidays. The bins are still emptied 7 days a week, 365 days a year. 

How the hell do they do it? If the workers haven't been paid for months, how come they keep going to work? I know many Ayuntamientos, mine included, are heavily in debt, but somehow everything just seems to keep functioning.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Lynn R said:


> It's been a real mystery to me, right through the recession, how it is that Spain seems to have been able to maintain that appearance at least of normality despite the level of unemployment being stratospheric compared to anything experienced in the UK, and the lack of a decent welfare safety net. Of course there are desperately poor areas (there is a settlement of "chabolas" for example just on the outskirts of Torre del Mar, my nearest coastal resort). However, it was there long before the recession even started, and hasn't sprung up because of it.
> 
> I'm from an area of the UK (NW England) that suffered badly during the 1980s recession and again in more recent times, and superficial appearances there are far, far worse than anything I see in Spain. Town centres full of boarded up shops, the majority of the functioning ones are pound shops, betting shops, charity shops and take-aways, and with all the steel security shutters down the towns look dreadful. Both the town where I was brought up and the one I lived in before moving here experienced very noticeable cuts in public services with leisure services and maintenance of parks and gardens decimated (both towns lost their swimming pools) and cuts in public transport due to council subsidies being withdrawn. Refuse collection was reduced to fortnightly and where I lived residents in outlying areas now have to drive to a central point to deposit their household rubbish (just like the communal bins in Spain!) despite still having to pay the very high Council Tax.
> 
> ...


Is it because Spanish people have more pride and like its areas to look nice regardless?? While the English are more a "pay me or I wont do it" nation???? And, Spain seems to have more above board "black economy" than the UK?????

Jo xxxx


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

I have posted in the forum a number of times with "Recession, what recession?" Here, there is little sign of any recession. But this is a village and there is no outward display of ostentation, nor living beyond one's means. We have recently had Doner Kebab shop closed after about 18 months in business but that is hardly surprising since this isn't D/K country. The place will be reopening in a new guise shortly. In the nearby town both Lidl and Mercadona are reforming and enlarging.


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

jojo said:


> Well, the recession that started in 2008 (the month we moved to Spain - typical!!), has been going on for 6 years. It seems the UK and indeed the rest of the world are slowly rising out of it - according to the "experts"??! Certainly things "on the ground", jobs, infrastructure and life seem to be a bit better, but that could be the season and the spin from the media.
> 
> Anyway, it seems that Spain is still suffering - is that right??? Cos I'm no longer there, I dont know, but I do wonder. The comments on the forum still suggest things are bad there?? Are there any positive signs where you are????
> 
> Jo xxx


Things are improving. We live on a main road and years ago it was a constant stream of lorries from a quarry. The last 6 years we rarely see one lorry a day, but just lately there as been a tremendous increase. It's not like it was, but we see up to thirty lorries a day of aggregates going somewhere. It must mean more building somewhere. Our village, you can't move for traffic, worse than three years ago. They are building a new school too.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Aron said:


> Things are improving. We live on a main road and years ago it was a constant stream of lorries from a quarry. The last 6 years we rarely see one lorry a day, but just lately there as been a tremendous increase. It's not like it was, but we see up to thirty lorries a day of aggregates going somewhere. It must mean more building somewhere. Our village, you can't move for traffic, worse than three years ago. They are building a new school too.



Is that the Quarry in Alhaurin de la Torre??? We used to live near there and the lorries, the dust and the explosions used to drive me mad - Then they stopped, due to something or other, I think they used it for the extension on Malaga airpoty. Those heavy lorries ruined the road tho!

Jo xxx


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

jojo said:


> Is that the Quarry in Alhaurin de la Torre??? We used to live near there and the lorries, the dust and the explosions used to drive me mad - Then they stopped, due to something or other, I think they used it for the extension on Malaga airpoty. Those heavy lorries ruined the road tho!
> 
> Jo xxx


No, the quarries are in the mountains near Loja. They do damage the roads and ideally it could lead to more obras, but like the UK, the roads take second place.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Lynn R said:


> How the hell do they do it? If the workers haven't been paid for months, how come they keep going to work? I know many Ayuntamientos, mine included, are heavily in debt, but somehow everything just seems to keep functioning.


With the funcionarios, if they don't keep going to work (i.e. if they leave), they won't get their back-pay. In Barbate they were five months behind; eventually they went on strike for a couple of weeks and the money was miraculously found.

How do they cope? They do jobs on the side, borrow from family, sell their valuables (Compro Oro shops are doing a roaring trade), get stuff on credit, go cap in hand to Caritas, and just do without. We have families here who have no electricity at home because they've been cut off. They rely on the grandparents who know how to manage, because they didn't have electricity at all when they were young. They've been through it all before.

Of course, people can't pay their IBI (council tax) which makes matters worse because it puts the Ayto into further debt.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

The signs of outward prosperity is also an indication of the demographic of an area. Because public sector pensions are so good (80 or 90% of final salary), a lot of retired teachers and other funcionarios live very well. Half a million politicians also do very nicely, with their expenses and cumulative pension pots. So if you live somewhere with a high percentage of older, middle-class people, there is often plenty of money around.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> With the funcionarios, if they don't keep going to work (i.e. if they leave), they won't get their back-pay. In Barbate they were five months behind; eventually they went on strike for a couple of weeks and the money was miraculously found.
> 
> How do they cope? They do jobs on the side, borrow from family, sell their valuables (Compro Oro shops are doing a roaring trade), get stuff on credit, go cap in hand to Caritas, and just do without. We have families here who have no electricity at home because they've been cut off. They rely on the grandparents who know how to manage, because they didn't have electricity at all when they were young. They've been through it all before.
> 
> Of course, people can't pay their IBI (council tax) which makes matters worse because it puts the Ayto into further debt.


But, at least here the dues are more realistic than in UK. Our IBI (5BR house) is just €151 for a full year - in UK we paid £100 per month for a 1BR flat in Southend-on-Sea. Car tax here is just €59 whereas it would cost £230 in the UK.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Lynn R said:


> It's been a real mystery to me, right through the recession, how it is that Spain seems to have been able to maintain that appearance at least of normality despite the level of unemployment being stratospheric compared to anything experienced in the UK, and the lack of a decent welfare safety net. year.
> 
> How the hell do they do it? If the workers haven't been paid for months, how come they keep going to work? I know many Ayuntamientos, mine included, are heavily in debt, but somehow everything just seems to keep functioning.


might be something to do with the 54 billion in 500€ notes alone, that they had stashed away at the start of the crisis & which has only reduced by 5 billion in 5 years. There's a long way to go before the are fighting in the streets around here.


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## KayParkyn (May 4, 2013)

Trubrit said:


> As an English teacher of 63 years old who came to Spain to retire in 2011 I have never been so busy !! It seems that the only profession that has held it's own is English teaching but the problem is that a large percentage of English teachers are not in fact teachers at all. That being said, I get a lot of work from companies who want me to correct the rubbish teaching that their staff have received, so it's an ill wind.......
> I am just considering starting a customer service business because I cannot believe the way some businesses treat their clients, it's absolutely abysmal, I will keep the forum informed.


Would you say that the other English teachers' tend to be those with TEFL qualifications? They seem pretty easy to get hold of and therefore an easy way to make some money. 

I have a'bee in my bonnet' about correct punctuation and spelling but it seems that sadly, I am one of a dying breed. 

Once a teacher, always a teacher but also willing to learn something new too 

Best wishes
XXX


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

KayParkyn said:


> Would you say that the other English teachers' tend to be those with TEFL qualifications? They seem pretty easy to get hold of and therefore an easy way to make some money.
> 
> I have a'bee in my bonnet' about correct punctuation and spelling but it seems that sadly, I am one of a dying breed.
> 
> ...


There are many of us about who would like to hang on to our language in the face of abbreviated "text-speak" and other depredations. I deplore any plans to eliminate hyphens which are so useful in conveying correct meaning, for example: "twenty two thousand one hundred and twenty one year old trees" without hyphen(s), one doesn't know how many trees.

BTW, I have never been a teacher!


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

baldilocks said:


> There are many of us about who would like to hang on to our language in the face of abbreviated "text-speak" and other depredations. I deplore any plans to eliminate hyphens which are so useful in conveying correct meaning, for example: "twenty two thousand one hundred and twenty one year old trees" without hyphen(s), one doesn't know how many trees.
> 
> BTW, I have never been a teacher!


In other words, without punctuation, we wouldn't see the wood for the trees!


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

Close to us Mercadonna have opened two new supermarkets and Lidl are building one nearby. But in the El Ingenio shopping centre many shops open and close within 6 months. But the supermarkets are still thriving and often very busy. Tourism around here has increased each year for the last three years and they are expecting a larger increase this year which can only be good news...


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Aron said:


> In other words, without punctuation, we wouldn't see the wood for the trees!


Very good! 10/10


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

baldilocks said:


> But, at least here the dues are more realistic than in UK. Our IBI (5BR house) is just €151 for a full year - in UK we paid £100 per month for a 1BR flat in Southend-on-Sea. Car tax here is just €59 whereas it would cost £230 in the UK.


Do you really think IBI bills are more realistic here? How can councils function with such small amounts.Some in the campo pay less than 50 euros! Everyone has the services, police, fire, ambulance available to them if they need them,roads, pavements, lighting etc has to be maintained. Many can and should pay a higher IBI, it's a wonder the councils haven't increased the level to one that is more realistic, then perhaps they wouldn't have to take such drastic measures as abolishing IHT allowances, because they need the money!


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

extranjero said:


> Do you really think IBI bills are more realistic here? How can councils function with such small amounts.Some in the campo pay less than 50 euros! Everyone has the services, police, fire, ambulance available to them if they need them,roads, pavements, lighting etc has to be maintained. Many can and should pay a higher IBI, it's a wonder the councils haven't increased the level to one that is more realistic, then perhaps they wouldn't have to take such drastic measures as abolishing IHT allowances, because they need the money!


They would also be better off if all the cheating foreigners who drive around in their foreign registered cars when they have been here for years, not registered on the extranjero's register and paid their car tax not to mention, cheating on the health service by waving EHICs instead of making proper payments towards their healthcare.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

baldilocks said:


> They would also be better off if all the cheating foreigners who drive around in their foreign registered cars when they have been here for years, not registered on the extranjero's register and paid their car tax not to mention, cheating on the health service by waving EHICs instead of making proper payments towards their healthcare.



Thats slowly, but surely being dealt with Baldi, but it costs money to catch these guys and you cant blame "foreigners" for everything. In the meantime, I guess they could put the IBI up a bit!

Jo xxx


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

jojo said:


> Thats slowly, but surely being dealt with Baldi, but it costs money to catch these guys and you cant blame "foreigners" for everything. In the meantime, I guess they could put the IBI up a bit!
> 
> Jo xxx


How does it cost money to catch them? They drive around in their foreign registered vehicles all the time right past the GC who are only interested in stopping them if they are speeding because it is then an open and shut case they collect the fine and that's it. No checking whether the vehicle is legal or not - most aren't (no valid MoT, no valid VEL and in many cases no valid insurance) the GC just aren't trained or shown what they are supposed to be doing - maybe their bosses don't know the law, (the culprits invariably are aware and I know of one who has seven, at the last count, different vehicles that he changes around every so often so that he isn't seen in the same vehicle too often). Meanwhile, the country needs the money not these illegal immigrants!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

baldilocks said:


> How does it cost money to catch them? They drive around in their foreign registered vehicles all the time right past the GC who are only interested in stopping them if they are speeding because it is then an open and shut case they collect the fine and that's it. No checking whether the vehicle is legal or not - most aren't (no valid MoT, no valid VEL and in many cases no valid insurance) the GC just aren't trained or shown what they are supposed to be doing - maybe their bosses don't know the law, (the culprits invariably are aware and I know of one who has seven, at the last count, different vehicles that he changes around every so often so that he isn't seen in the same vehicle too often). Meanwhile, the country needs the money not these illegal immigrants!



It costs money! I agree with you, but it wont solve the financial problems in Spain

Jo xxx


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

extranjero said:


> Do you really think IBI bills are more realistic here? How can councils function with such small amounts.Some in the campo pay less than 50 euros! Everyone has the services, police, fire, ambulance available to them if they need them,roads, pavements, lighting etc has to be maintained. Many can and should pay a higher IBI, it's a wonder the councils haven't increased the level to one that is more realistic, then perhaps they wouldn't have to take such drastic measures as abolishing IHT allowances, because they need the money!


police fire & ambulance are funded by funds from central government based upon the padrón - nothing to do with the IBI

a lot of roads are the responsibility of the provincial govt & others the comunidad - again - nothing to do with the IBI


IHT is Hacienda - again, nothing to do with local aytos & IBI

however, in a bid to increase the funds raised by the IBI our ayto hired a plane & took aerial photos of plots which weren't supposed to have buildings on them which the plot owners weren't paying IBI for - & not only fined them, charged some IBI in arrears & these property owners are now paying IBI


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

Things around here aren't as rosy as what some of you are describing. In the towns around where I live I would say about 15-20% of the storefronts are closed with_ for rent _or _for sale _signs out. There are also empty houses for sale everywhere and entire estates of abandoned, half built houses. In my town the parks and streets are maintained but not as often or as well as before. The fountains in the squares have been turned off, as have exactly half of the street lights. In the schools they haven't run the heating for several years now. Those are just a few examples of how the town hall has cut back. 

As for unemployment, my OH (a Spaniard) has several people in his family who are long termed unemployed and they continue in the same situation. One is OH's cousin, who ended up losing his house. His family has moved in with his wife's parents. Another (DH's sister) has only managed to keep her house because we and also my in-laws help her out financially. I don't see any improvement in unemployment in the under 30's either. My boss' son (a PhD in biology) last summer moved to France to work. The son of the secretary where I work just moved to Chile last month to teach PE. The daughter of a neighbor finished a masters in architecture last June and is currently sitting home doing nothing. I know of more similar cases but I won't go on. Let's just say that I've seen no signs of improvement in unemployment.

I work in a large, well established English academy and it's running at a loss for the first time ever this year. Enrollment is definitely down, especially in the classes for very young learners. In my center the class for 4 year olds was full 2 years ago, last year it had 4 empty places, and this year we only got two kids! Exam classes (to prepare for Cambridge exams) are the only ones that have managed to keep up their enrollment.

So to sum up, no, I can't see any sign whatsoever of improvement in the economic situation around here. We just roll our eyes when the politicians tell us that the crisis is over.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

kalohi said:


> Things around here aren't as rosy as what some of you are describing. In the towns around where I live I would say about 15-20% of the storefronts are closed with_ for rent _or _for sale _signs out. There are also empty houses for sale everywhere and entire estates of abandoned, half built houses. In my town the parks and streets are maintained but not as often or as well as before. The fountains in the squares have been turned off, as have exactly half of the street lights. In the schools they haven't run the heating for several years now. Those are just a few examples of how the town hall has cut back.
> 
> As for unemployment, my OH (a Spaniard) has several people in his family who are long termed unemployed and they continue in the same situation. One is OH's cousin, who ended up losing his house. His family has moved in with his wife's parents. Another (DH's sister) has only managed to keep her house because we and also my in-laws help her out financially. I don't see any improvement in unemployment in the under 30's either. My boss' son (a PhD in biology) last summer moved to France to work. The son of the secretary where I work just moved to Chile last month to teach PE. The daughter of a neighbor finished a masters in architecture last June and is currently sitting home doing nothing. I know of more similar cases but I won't go on. Let's just say that I've seen no signs of improvement in unemployment.
> 
> ...


One in every two people of employable age in Estepona are jobless. No signs of those 'green shoots' in this area.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

The situation I referred to was, as i said, HERE and I am well aware that my 'here' is not the same as yours. Our main employment is olives/olive oil, cherries, almonds and other seasonal employment so our employment situation varies with the seasons. However the underlying unemployment (the won't or can't work) remains fairly constant.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

extranjero said:


> Do you really think IBI bills are more realistic here? How can councils function with such small amounts.Some in the campo pay less than 50 euros! Everyone has the services, police, fire, ambulance available to them if they need them,roads, pavements, lighting etc has to be maintained. Many can and should pay a higher IBI, it's a wonder the councils haven't increased the level to one that is more realistic, then perhaps they wouldn't have to take such drastic measures as abolishing IHT allowances, because they need the money!


As Xabiachica has pointed out, your post displays a total lack of understanding of how public services are funded in Spain.

Even if the things you mention were funded by IBI contributions, however, the idea that millions of Spanish families (including the jobless, those whose salaries have been slashed, pensioners helping to keep their extended families going) should face higher IBI bills in order to subsidise more generous IHT allowances (primarily for comfortably off foreign residents, since that appears to be your prime concern) is just un-f'ing-believable.

Are you sure you're not an Old Etonian? With ideas like that you'd be an ideal fit in David Cameron's Cabinet.


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

extranjero said:


> Do you really think IBI bills are more realistic here? How can councils function with such small amounts.Some in the campo pay less than 50 euros! Everyone has the services, police, fire, ambulance available to them if they need them,roads, pavements, lighting etc has to be maintained. Many can and should pay a higher IBI, it's a wonder the councils haven't increased the level to one that is more realistic, then perhaps they wouldn't have to take such drastic measures as abolishing IHT allowances, because they need the money!


The further you get into rural Spain, the less those services become. There are fewer police, fewer ambulances and very often just one fire engine serving a vast area. The roads are not well maintained. You can't expect people in rural areas to pay the same as those in populated areas. Some areas have no street lighting. Now saying that, two years ago our IBI was increased by 10%. My brother lives in Marbella and pays about 5 times the amount I do, but he has better services by more than 5 times!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Aron said:


> The further you get into rural Spain, the less those services become. There are fewer police, fewer ambulances and very often just one fire engine serving a vast area. The roads are not well maintained. You can't expect people in rural areas to pay the same as those in populated areas. Some areas have no street lighting. Now saying that, two years ago our IBI was increased by 10%. My brother lives in Marbella and pays about 5 times the amount I do, but he has better services by more than 5 times!


one urb on the edge of our town has little street lighting & no postal delivery

another gated urb of apartments in town has no postal delivery

why?

because according to the padrón 'no-one lives there'........ yet there are lights on in most of the properties & people in the gardens all year round

the ayto is actively trying to encourage these 'hidden' residents to register on the padrón - with some success, but there are still many who 'don't live here'






climbs down off soapbox


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> one urb on the edge of our town has little street lighting & no postal delivery
> 
> another gated urb of apartments in town has no postal delivery
> 
> ...


There are many of us also on the same soapbox. Perhaps it is time that a system of fines was implemented to counter those who try to hide - I would propose a fine of ten times the IBI, doubling for every re-offence. The main problem is that, even where there are penalties in place for failure to comply, nobody in authority seems to be sufficiently bothered to properly implement them (e.g. the illegal cars).

The net result is that those of us who do abide by the rules and regs end up having to pay more to make up for the shortfall in revenue.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> There are many of us also on the same soapbox. Perhaps it is time that a system of fines was implemented to counter those who try to hide - I would propose a fine of ten times the IBI, doubling for every re-offence. The main problem is that, even where there are penalties in place for failure to comply, nobody in authority seems to be sufficiently bothered to properly implement them (e.g. the illegal cars).
> 
> The net result is that those of us who do abide by the rules and regs end up having to pay more to make up for the shortfall in revenue.


I think part of the problem is the fractured way finances are run

money for different things comes from different authorities - here, there are _four _different ones responsible for roads!

there have been illegal cars taken & destroyed here - & yet still some people seem to get away with it for years

our local authority isn't perfect - but it is very pro-active as far as chasing revenue is concerned


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> I think part of the problem is the fractured way finances are run
> 
> money for different things comes from different authorities - here, there are _four _different ones responsible for roads!
> 
> ...


I wish ours was.


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

Some people I know received a parking fine for €200; they were on holiday and they decided to do the correct thing and go and pay it - plus receive a 50% discount. They arrived at the police station to pay only to be told that because the issuing policeman had not filled in the box where it should have stated the amount of fine (€200) they didn't have to pay it. The ticket stated the fine was €200 but the box had not been filled in.


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## xxxxxxxxxxxxxdeanhankin (May 5, 2009)

I don't see a lot of improvements in the UK if I'm honest, Maybe you see it in the South East but in the Midlands there's very little change for the better.

A friend of mine manufactures furniture, he's hardly noticed the recession since 2008 because he sells very nice quality items at lower prices, trade has been good but since last Christmas his business has practically dried up. 

On a trip down the high street the other evening I spotted a group of 7 young women with pushchairs hanging around the skip at the back of Iceland waiting for their blokes to pass out food from the skip! hardly a picture of economic success.

On the other hand we in the UK have just bought 465 ooo new cars in March alone, the second highest level on record....... If you look at car ownership figures though less than 20% of the cars on the road today have been fully paid for so I guess they're all on credit.

The governments blowing a huge property bubble with their help to buy scheme and the IMF have revised up growth figures (which are never accurate) to show that the UK is the fastest growing economy in Europe 

We got into this mess by borrowing, I guess we'll just have to suffer when it blows up again. We can't seem to figure out that the cult of new home/car ownership at any price is just a big trap that rents out a slice of your future productivity to whoever your silly enough to borrow the money from.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

deanhankin said:


> I don't see a lot of improvements in the UK if I'm honest, Maybe you see it in the South East but in the Midlands there's very little change for the better.
> 
> A friend of mine manufactures furniture, he's hardly noticed the recession since 2008 because he sells very nice quality items at lower prices, trade has been good but since last Christmas his business has practically dried up.
> 
> ...


Everything you say is no doubt true. But ths Coalition Government is quite happy to sit back and let easy credit flow as all Tory led regimes do.
It's called The Feel- Good Factor...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Lynn R said:


> As Xabiachica has pointed out, your post displays a total lack of understanding of how public services are funded in Spain.
> 
> Even if the things you mention were funded by IBI contributions, however, the idea that millions of Spanish families (including the jobless, those whose salaries have been slashed, pensioners helping to keep their extended families going) should face higher IBI bills in order to subsidise more generous IHT allowances (primarily for comfortably off foreign residents, since that appears to be your prime concern) is just un-f'ing-believable.
> 
> Are you sure you're not an Old Etonian? With ideas like that you'd be an ideal fit in David Cameron's Cabinet.


Oh, that's so unfair.... She is the spokesperson for poor British immigrants in Spain
An often neglected constituency....


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Oh, that's so unfair.... She is the spokesperson for poor British immigrants in Spain
> An often neglected constituency....




But surely she is a he? Otherwise there would be an A rather than an O at the end of his/her username?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> But surely she is a he? Otherwise there would be an A rather than an O at the end of his/her username?


does that mean all _futbolistas _are girls


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

deanhankin said:


> I don't see a lot of improvements in the UK if I'm honest, Maybe you see it in the South East but in the Midlands there's very little change for the better.
> 
> A friend of mine manufactures furniture, he's hardly noticed the recession since 2008 because he sells very nice quality items at lower prices, trade has been good but since last Christmas his business has practically dried up.
> 
> ...


I do agree - there are many areas outside London and the South East which have yet to see any signs of the much vaunted recovery.

As to the property bubble, I've been reading reports during the last few days that property ownership is now at it's lowest level since 1987. Small wonder, with prices continuing to outstrip wages and younger people being squeezed out of the market by buy to let investors.

That trend really worries me, thinking ahead. Traditionally, by the time people come to retire they have paid off their mortgages and therefore don't have to fund their housing costs with a reduced income in retirement. So what is going to happen when all the 20 and 30-somethings who haven't been able to get onto the property ladder get to retirement age and the rent has to continue to be paid?


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

Alcalaina said:


> But surely she is a he? Otherwise there would be an A rather than an O at the end of his/her username?


Ah, the gender rule often throws up a few surprises with words ending in A or O. They are mostly male or female, but quite a few do not follow that rule!


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

Lynn R said:


> As Xabiachica has pointed out, your post displays a total lack of understanding of how public services are funded in Spain.
> 
> Even if the things you mention were funded by IBI contributions, however, the idea that millions of Spanish families (including the jobless, those whose salaries have been slashed, pensioners helping to keep their extended families going) should face higher IBI bills in order to subsidise more generous IHT allowances (primarily for comfortably off foreign residents, since that appears to be your prime concern) is just un-f'ing-believable.
> 
> Are you sure you're not an Old Etonian? With ideas like that you'd be an ideal fit in David Cameron's Cabinet.


Calm down, dear it's only a forum!
A member of our resident's association said that the money from IBI can be used however a council chooses, whether it be roads, new bins, tarting up the marina or a 
40 ft statue. 
Of course I wouldn't expect a village with few amenities to pay the same as a big urbanisation, but to pay 10 times less is a bit much.
IBI is a matter for the Hacienda, as you say, but regional governments set their own allowances, hopefully for not much longer as the EU wants something done about the disparity between regions, hence the new measures mentioned in the CBN this week.
I am not saying that less well off people should pay more in order to lessen the IHT bill of wealthy ex pats, but it is obvious that if the system were more efficient, drastic measures like abolishing Murcia's regional allowance should not be necessary.
By efficient I mean 
Fairer system of calculating IBI, and collecting it- here, a lot don't pay it, some have offered to but were told , for whatever reason, they don't have to,even though they have their escrituras.look at the money lost!
Chasing up expats who don't pay tax, don't re register UK vehicles etc


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

There is more detailed information in today's El Pais about the proposals of the committee of experts currently undertaking a detailed review of the whole Spanish tax system, as regards IHT (unfortunately it doesn't seem to be available in their English version as yet):-

Impuesto de Sucesiones: Las renuncias de herencias aumentan un 21% en el último año | EconomÃ­a | EL PAÃ�S

So, again we will have to wait and see what the final recommendations are and whether they are adopted.

By this time next year, the question "How are things in Spain now" could look quite different as far as taxation is concerned.


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## Barriej (Jul 23, 2012)

baldilocks said:


> They would also be better off if all the cheating foreigners who drive around in their foreign registered cars when they have been here for years, not registered on the extranjero's register and paid their car tax not to mention, cheating on the health service by waving EHICs instead of making proper payments towards their healthcare.


The illegal car thing is starting to be addressed here in the UK.
The other week 35 non UK reg cars were taken off the roads in Northampton, however most British people seem to think its because of the no insurance reason, rather than its a legal requirement. Also the drivers seemed to be unaware (or they knew but were keeping quiet)

So Im not surprised there are loads of illegal cars in Spain, most Brits don't know.
Not saying its a defence but, I don't think its advertised anywhere that you must re-register your vehicle. Maybe the ferry customs people at borders should be informing people.

Is there a list of 'must do' items handed out to you when you apply for your NIE or resident status?


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## xxxxxxxxxxxxxdeanhankin (May 5, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Everything you say is no doubt true. But ths Coalition Government is quite happy to sit back and let easy credit flow as all Tory led regimes do.
> It's called The Feel- Good Factor...


Austerity is a good thing, unless there are elections looming.... if elections are on the horizon you can have a penny off the pint, a freeze on fuel duty and a raise in your tax free allowance. 

How about that then boys and girls :first:


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## xxxxxxxxxxxxxdeanhankin (May 5, 2009)

deanhankin said:


> Austerity is a good thing, unless there are elections looming.... if elections are on the horizon you can have a penny off the pint, a freeze on fuel duty and a raise in your tax free allowance.
> 
> How about that then boys and girls :first:



I now see that the Spanish siesta is under threat? That Siesta used to keep me fit, all that walking back and forth to the closed shopsout:


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

Barriej said:


> The illegal car thing is starting to be addressed here in the UK.
> The other week 35 non UK reg cars were taken off the roads in Northampton, however most British people seem to think its because of the no insurance reason, rather than its a legal requirement. Also the drivers seemed to be unaware (or they knew but were keeping quiet)
> 
> So Im not surprised there are loads of illegal cars in Spain, most Brits don't know.
> ...


You're right- ignorance is no defence. There is so much information here, online, ex pat press, information forums. No one is going to hand an expat an information pack, it's up to the individual to do their research, ask. If anyone doesn't know about reregistering their UK car here, it's because they don't want to know!


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## Sirtravelot (Jul 20, 2011)

Lynn R said:


> I do agree - there are many areas outside London and the South East which have yet to see any signs of the much vaunted recovery.
> 
> As to the property bubble, I've been reading reports during the last few days that property ownership is now at it's lowest level since 1987. Small wonder, with prices continuing to outstrip wages and younger people being squeezed out of the market by buy to let investors.
> 
> That trend really worries me, thinking ahead. Traditionally, by the time people come to retire they have paid off their mortgages and therefore don't have to fund their housing costs with a reduced income in retirement. So what is going to happen when all the 20 and 30-somethings who haven't been able to get onto the property ladder get to retirement age and the rent has to continue to be paid?


I'm in my 20s and I got no idea. I'm actually terrified that nobody in my age group even cares about this.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Trubrit said:


> As an English teacher of 63 years old who came to Spain to retire in 2011 I have never been so busy !! It seems that the only profession that has held it's own is English teaching but the problem is that a large percentage of English teachers are not in fact teachers at all. That being said, I get a lot of work from companies who want me to correct the rubbish teaching that their staff have received, so it's an ill wind.......
> I am just considering starting a customer service business because I cannot believe the way some businesses treat their clients, it's absolutely abysmal, I will keep the forum informed.


I don't get the customer service idea Trubrit...


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Lynn R said:


> I live in a large town 5km inland from the coast, East of Malaga. We get some daytime tourism but there aren't many places for tourists to stay.
> 
> Here, the unemployment statistics are just as bad as everywhere else. But strangely, the "feel" of life is very little different from how it was before the crisis. There are a few empty commercial premises in the town centre, but not many. Some new businesses open up and seem to close down again within a year, but another one moves in to take its place. Three new restaurants (with prices much higher than the average for the town) have opened since last December. The academias, especially those teaching English, do seem very busy and even young children are attending classes - which means (a) their parents can afford to pay and (b) the immediate reason for learning isn't in order to be able to leave the country in order to find work.
> 
> ...


I have seen a couple of billboards up just recently. It's just like old times_* Urbanización Nuevo Mundo. 25 chalets en construcción. Materias primas. Ven a ver el Chalet piloto y empezar tu vida*__* nueva*_.
Maybe they know something I don't, but last time I heard there were still thousands even millions of houses for sale. According to this article * 583.453 new *houses¿Cuántas viviendas hay sin vender en España? | Economía | Cinco Días. Put that together with the older properties and properties that it seems some people want to build and BOOMBA you've got the collapse of the already collapsed housing market!!
Our town hall is building a shopping centre and a new library 
It makes me think that 


People are desperate
The only thing a lot of people know how to do is build
There still a lot of corrupt people out there
What is Spain like?
Still in the shhiit.
Likely to stay there for a while yet
BUT

Still a good place to be if you've got work


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## xxxxxxxxxxxxxdeanhankin (May 5, 2009)

Sirtravelot said:


> I'm in my 20s and I got no idea. I'm actually terrified that nobody in my age group even cares about this.


I'm 38 and don't own a house, it's a shame but life's too short to worry about it.

What will I do when I'm older? More work I guess and when I'm too old to work I'll just have to do what everyone else does, either die or get a council flat/bungalow.

Not much of a future is it? Better enjoy life now whilst I still have good health.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

deanhankin said:


> What will I do when I'm older? More work I guess and when I'm too old to work I'll just have to do what everyone else does, either die or get a council flat/bungalow.


Good luck with the council house/bungalow - there is already a chronic shortage, and not just in London and the South East.
James Meek · Where will we live?: The Housing Disaster · LRB 9 January 2014

Btw I'm not unsympathetic to the situation of those like you who have not been able to buy (my stepdaughter and her partner, in their mid 30s, are in the same position).


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Our British obsession with home ownership is not really a Good Thing. Not only is property no longer a copper- bottomed investment, very few people actually own their homes...most are owers not owners, until the mortgage is paid off and if they are not unlucky and find themselves with negative equity when they retire.
People look to their property as not so much a home as an investment yet if they invested in industry via share ownership they and the economy would be better off in the long run.
Of course what is needed is a good supply of quality, affordable rented housing...not this daft self- defeating help to buy policy of the current government.
It seems even Germany and France are now catching the British disease.
.


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## Sirtravelot (Jul 20, 2011)

mrypg9 said:


> Our British obsession with home ownership is not really a Good Thing. Not only is property no longer a copper- bottomed investment, very few people actually own their homes...most are owers not owners, until the mortgage is paid off and if they are not unlucky and find themselves with negative equity when they retire.
> People look to their property as not so much a home as an investment yet if they invested in industry via share ownership they and the economy would be better off in the long run.
> Of course what is needed is a good supply of quality, affordable rented housing...not this daft self- defeating help to buy policy of the current government.
> *It seems even Germany and France are now catching the British disease*.
> .


YES. This is true. German real estate has gone up quite a bit in the last 2 years. And why? Because Germans, a nation of money savers due to their history of hyperinflation, have realized that their savings are rotting away in the bank with ridiculously low interest rates. They are now discovering how appetizing it is to borrow at low costs and investing in brick and mortar.


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I have seen a couple of billboards up just recently. It's just like old times_* Urbanización Nuevo Mundo. 25 chalets en construcción. Materias primas. Ven a ver el Chalet piloto y empezar tu vida*__* nueva*_.
> Maybe they know something I don't, but last time I heard there were still thousands even millions of houses for sale. According to this article * 583.453 new *houses¿Cuántas viviendas hay sin vender en España? | Economía | Cinco Días. Put that together with the older properties and properties that it seems some people want to build and BOOMBA you've got the collapse of the already collapsed housing market!!
> Our town hall is building a shopping centre and a new library
> It makes me think that
> ...


I could have sworn the folks who built our place got some properties taken away by the bank. 

Now they're building four more chalets. 

I am so, so confused.


Also, another company is building a few chalets across the street. They were working on the interiors until about Christmas. Now, the place is closed up and there hasn't been any work for months. We want to find the owner because they MUST pave the street. However, he's gone missing.


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Lynn, don't worry about us not paying off the mortgage by the time we retire. I'm sure I'll be retiring at 80!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

elenetxu said:


> I could have sworn the folks who built our place got some properties taken away by the bank.
> 
> Now they're building four more chalets.
> 
> I am so, so confused.


Me too!
Has this country not got anything but bricks and mortar to offer?


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

It is quite odd, I wonder who is going to sell these houses as the existing real estate agents don't seem to be in a hurry to sell the millions already standing. I maintain they should be in the business of being agents, not builders.

Out of the dozen or so we contacted last week only 3 got back to us, one an English agent, one a private owner and the other called me back an has not been seen or heard of since.
It's frustrating as hell, there are literally hundreds of properties that one can visit if you can work out how to. We don't have the time to do their job for them.



> YES. This is true. German real estate has gone up quite a bit in the last 2 years. And why? Because Germans, a nation of money savers due to their history of hyperinflation, have realized that their savings are rotting away in the bank with ridiculously low interest rates. They are now discovering how appetizing it is to borrow at low costs and investing in brick and mortar.


It's not as if there is a massive difference in ownership percentage though, fair enough it may be on the rise but it's to be expected when one nation is fairing comparatively well to others.
Still though they nor the UK have any type of numbers that can compare with most of Europe(Spain included) when it comes to home ownership.
Maybe this perceived "obsession" is only born out the fact that it's not possible for everyone to own a home, which in my opinion is a more troubling sociological factor than anything else.
It's not a new concept to want to have a cave of your own, mark out your territory. It goes a lot further back than the last 100 years.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pazcat said:


> It is quite odd, I wonder who is going to sell these houses as the existing real estate agents don't seem to be in a hurry to sell the millions already standing. I maintain they should be in the business of being agents, not builders.
> 
> Out of the dozen or so we contacted last week only 3 got back to us, one an English agent, one a private owner and the other called me back an has not been seen or heard of since.
> It's frustrating as hell, there are literally hundreds of properties that one can visit if you can work out how to. We don't have the time to do their job for them.
> ...


Marking out and owning are entirely different things, though. No- pne took out a thirty plus year mortgage on a cave and cave values most certainly didn't fluctuate.
Renting rather than home ownership has been the norm in Europe - and the UK- until credit became easily available. 
I can only repeat...most people are homeowers not home owners. 
I'm now a tenant, have owned properties (mortgage free) most of my adult life. I feel just as secure in my territory as I did when I owned..more so as I don't pay for repairs and we have an excellent landlord.
When I last googled, home ownership in Spain was at a staggering 74%, the highest in Europe. That surprised me.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

It's not really that much different to be honest, times have changed is all. Cocking your leg on a tree/30 year mortgage, tomato/tomato the same basic concept of possession. 
Now whether a 30 year mortgage is a good thing is a totally different situation but the majority of those without would probably take one if circumstance permits. Like I said earlier though I think that is more a reflection on society than peoples actual wants and needs. 
Surely values could of fluctuated, some nice cave paintings would drive any one to cave envy



> Renting rather than home ownership has been the norm in Europe - and the UK- until credit became easily available.


Not sure I agree with that completely but only after looking at some basic numbers it suggests that home ownership is the norm and likely has been for a long time. List of countries by home ownership rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Both countries that are economically successful and not so successful are well represented.
Countries like France, Spain, Greece, Italy, Scandinavia, eastern Europe etc... all have the possibly "old world" family homestead way of life that gets handed down through the generations. Not surprising really, and when people do move on they would like to provide the same for their family. Nowt wrong with that.
Clearly though what the numbers say is most nations value home ownership.

Maybe the UK is/was different about renting than the rest of Europe, but I still would put a fiver on the fact that the majority of people not owning a house would love to own one eventually.

There is no right or wrong way to go about it, wherever you are happy is good enough I just don't see wanting to own your own home as a disease. Whether it be a British one or Spanish one. It's human nature, nothing else. 
Particularly when it's clearly the way things have been for a heck of a long time.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Renting rather than owning wouldn't be a problem if rents, in relation to wages, were affordable. However, we now have a situation in the UK where many people in rented accommodation are having to claim Housing Benefit, even though they are working, because they don't earn enough to pay the rent. The more people move into the rented sector, the bigger the problem becomes. When those people eventually retire (at whatever age they may be) the problem becomes even bigger because the gap between their pension income and the rent grows still wider, thus the amount of Housing Benefit they need to claim increases.

Telling everybody to move to an area where rents are cheaper is no solution either, because the cheapest rents are of course in areas where there is no work, so you have the classic Catch 22 situation.

More benefits already go to people in work rather than those who are unemployed, and unless something is done to make housing, either bought or rented, affordable to people on low (or even average) earnings then the welfare bill in years to come is going to spiral out of control no matter how much tinkering around with the likes of a "bedroom tax" goes on.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

With regard to the Spanish housing market, the latest monthly figures show an increase in the number of sales compared to the same month in 2012 (although still a very low number of sales nationally), plus a tiny increase in sale prices:-


Vivienda: La compraventa de casas ve la luz | EL MUNDO

Let us hope this is the start of a gradual recovery and not just a blip.


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

Lynn R said:


> More benefits already go to people in work rather than those who are unemployed, and unless something is done to make housing, either bought or rented, affordable to people on low (or even average) earnings then the welfare bill in years to come is going to spiral out of control...


Quite so. You've hit the nail squarely on the head.

It's also one of the reasons why this 'supposed' recovery we're in is nothing more than smoke/mirrors and slippery sleight of hand 'card tricks' being played by the Chancellor to make people _believe_ that there's an economic recovery going on.

The hard factual figures don't add up and do not represent future sustainable growth. All we're currently seeing is a consumer spending recovery fueled by cheap credit. Where have we seen this before?

Here are the actual facts:

GDP output still hasn't got back to pre-crisis 'crash' days, in fact GDP output has almost flatlined.

GDP per capita is actually falling. In other words we're becoming less productive.

Tax intake is falling.

Government debt it going up exponentially. It's actually quadrupled since 2000.

Unemployment has 'supposedly' fallen.

These facts and figures don't make any sense if we're supposed to be in a recovering economy.

What's actually happening is this. There are not more jobs being created, but the existing jobs are being shared out amongst a larger workforce. In other words more people are taking up part time work rather than full time beause they simply cannot get full time work. This explains why GDP per capita is actually falling when the government keeps weeing itself in delight at how GDP is actually _increasing_. If GDP is increasing then GDP per capita should increase with it, but it isn't, it's falling. Therefore the same output is actually being produced by more people—hence the fall in GDP per capita.

This also explains why unemployment is falling. They're not actually creating more jobs, they're simply pushing (forcing) more people into part-time jobs which have to propped up by tax-credits and as you rightly point out—housing benefit. This also partly explains why government borrowing/spending is going up exponentially—a lot of it is being used to subsidise low paid workers.

It also explains why the tax intake is falling—more and more part-time workers are falling into lower tax brackets and some falling under the tax threshold altogether.

This is not an economic policy built on sustainable future growth. It's a short-term 'band-aid' fix built solely on increased government borrowing and cheap credit being fueled by low interest rates and QE.

Osborne makes me laugh when he spins out rubbish like 'the good days are yet to come'. He hasn't got out of the bad days yet—just like all the people before him he just boots the debt can up the street expecting someone else to have to pay for it.

That 'someone else' will always be the tax payers.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

KayParkyn said:


> Would you say that the other English teachers' tend to be those with TEFL qualifications? They seem pretty easy to get hold of and therefore an easy way to make some money.
> 
> I have a'bee in my bonnet' about correct punctuation and spelling but it seems that sadly, I am one of a dying breed.
> 
> ...


One has to be very careful when making a post like that because some smart alec is going to check every detail...


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## Sirtravelot (Jul 20, 2011)

zenkarma said:


> Quite so. You've hit the nail squarely on the head.
> 
> It's also one of the reasons why this 'supposed' recovery we're in is nothing more than smoke/mirrors and slippery sleight of hand 'card tricks' being played by the Chancellor to make people _believe_ that there's an economic recovery going on.
> 
> ...


BOOM! That's the sound of a knowledge bomb being dropped.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jimenato said:


> One has to be very careful when making a post like that because some smart alec is going to check every detail...


I thought the unnecessary apostrophe in the OP was a typographical error...

I too, having taught for years, am punctilious about such things...but being aware of an unintentional tendency to err, I don't advertise the fact.
I just shake my head and tut...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pazcat said:


> It's not really that much different to be honest, times have changed is all. Cocking your leg on a tree/30 year mortgage, tomato/tomato the same basic concept of possession.
> Now whether a 30 year mortgage is a good thing is a totally different situation but the majority of those without would probably take one if circumstance permits. Like I said earlier though I think that is more a reflection on society than peoples actual wants and needs.
> Surely values could of fluctuated, some nice cave paintings would drive any one to cave envy
> 
> ...


There is absolutely nothing in the scholarly literature of anthropological philosophy which shows that **** sapiens has an innate acquisitive streak...quite the reverse, in fact. Historically, mankind has been a 'sharing' animal with a pronounced communal disposition.
What we imagine to be 'permanent', innate characteristics are of comparatively recent origin. Before the early eighteenth century and the industrial revolution we were a pretty laid- back species where ownership was concerned.
Home ownership may now be the done thing in Europe but this too is a recent phenomenum. Europe was predominantly a peasant society owning very little. Most people wouldn't have been able to aspire to a mortgage until credit became cheap and rules were relaxed. 

I have to say again...most people do not OWN their homes. They don't even hold possession of the title deeds to 'their' property. It's a fiction, a con- trick, a placebo...


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

> There is absolutely nothing in the scholarly literature of anthropological philosophy which shows that **** sapiens has an innate acquisitive streak...quite the reverse, in fact. Historically, mankind has been a 'sharing' animal with a pronounced communal disposition.
> What we imagine to be 'permanent', innate characteristics are of comparatively recent origin. Before the early eighteenth century and the industrial revolution we were a pretty laid- back species where ownership was concerned.
> Home ownership may now be the done thing in Europe but this too is a recent phenomenum. Europe was predominantly a peasant society owning very little. Most people wouldn't have been able to aspire to a mortgage until credit became cheap and rules were relaxed.
> 
> I have to say again...most people do not OWN their homes. They don't even hold possession of the title deeds to 'their' property. It's a fiction, a con- trick, a placebo...


I'm going to have to disagree with that, the ancient Greeks and Romans for example are some of the first to create laws regarding property rights. The ancient Egyptians had there own take on it albeit at the whim of whichever Pharoh was around at the time and even in later periods the Egyptian kept records of land ownership.
I have no doubt the concept existed well before then as well.

Even nomadic Aboriginal tribes who claim no land for themselves as it is the gods strangely enough settle in the same areas for centuries on end and did fight to protect their home from outsiders.

I just don't buy it, there are too many civilizations around the world where the artifacts are left today that tells me a families home was always at the heart of a family unit.

It doesn't surprise me though that in more recent times(the 14-1500s) home/land/property ownership levels were only for the wealthy and influential and therefor most people likely did have to pay m'lord for the priviledge, yet I doubt they were relaxed or terribly happy about it even if it was a home for life.

I think grave goods in ancient burials is a fair enough anthropological sign that **** sapiens valued possessions. It is often remarked that the Neolithic era was were the concept of property ownership emerged.
Until then I guess they just parked the bus wherever they felt like and made home there.

As for what this has to do with Spain I don't know.

I do have to retract my earlier statement about real estate agents, the count is up to 4 out of 11 now that have got in contact with us.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Now this is good news as far as signs of a slowly emerging recovery is concerned:-

La venta de electrodom?sticos marca el fin de la crisis del consumo | Econom?a | EL MUNDO

Domestic demand and consumption needs to rise, as well as exports and tourism, before jobs can start to be created.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Lynn R said:


> Now this is good news as far as signs of a slowly emerging recovery is concerned:-
> 
> La venta de electrodom?sticos marca el fin de la crisis del consumo | Econom?a | EL MUNDO
> 
> Domestic demand and consumption needs to rise, as well as exports and tourism, before jobs can start to be created.


And for that to happen, people need money to spend after forking out on the basics. Classic Keynesian demand-side economics.
And if the private sector is too squeezed to provide it, then demand must be created by public spending.
But of course the free marketeers who now rule Europe think spending public money is justified only when bailing out banks and other lenders who failed to exercise due diligence.
People who complain about government debt fail to point out that most government borrowing has been for the rescue of the financial sector, not for public sector projects.

But that's typical free market cant. The free market couldn't exist without government support and intervention. It is a creation of government.


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## siobhan gomez (Apr 16, 2014)

Hi I have lived in the Alicante are for 11 years and have seen many changes here especially how difficult things are with the unemployment however finally after 6 years of no work my Spanish partner is finally working , he is not doing a job he enjoys but its work and with a contract which makes life easier , its just sad when he speaks 4 languages and is an electronic engineer but hopefully things will pick up . Still saying all of that I love it here and my 4 children have had and are having a great childhood so I have no regrets at all .


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## KayParkyn (May 4, 2013)

mrypg9 said:


> I thought the unnecessary apostrophe in the OP was a typographical error...
> 
> I too, having taught for years, am punctilious about such things...but being aware of an unintentional tendency to err, I don't advertise the fact.
> I just shake my head and tut...


Lol, I blame this new fangled tablet device with its small keyboard tiles, the sensitivity and my big fingers!

It took me ages to find lol!:nod:


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

KayParkyn said:


> Lol, I blame this new fangled tablet device with its small keyboard tiles, the sensitivity and my big fingers!
> 
> It took me ages to find lol!:nod:


I have the same problem...as I am a heavy-handed and vicious jabber I have got through several cheap styli and now rely on clumsy fingers...:

You can get better, virtually indestructible styli but at what to me seem silly prices for what is,essentially, a pointing stick.....


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

mrypg9 said:


> And for that to happen, people need money to spend after forking out on the basics. Classic Keynesian demand-side economics.
> And if the private sector is too squeezed to provide it, then demand must be created by public spending.
> But of course the free marketeers who now rule Europe think spending public money is justified only when bailing out banks and other lenders who failed to exercise due diligence.
> People who complain about government debt fail to point out that most government borrowing has been for the rescue of the financial sector, not for public sector projects.
> ...


In normal circumstances I would of course agree with you, Mary. However, I think in many ways Spain's situation is different. There has been so much public spending and improvements to infrastructure during the post-Franco era, up until the global financial crisis struck, that it's almost difficult to see what else they could possibly do by way of worthwhile capital projects. Even some of the ones already completed would probably have been better not started - our tram here in Velez is a classic example, over €40M spent and no trams have run since the summer of 2012 and it's unlikely ever to be resurrected because it's just not financially viable. It was a pet project of our former PSOE Alcalde who was full of grandiose ideas, I even read that we were to have a Formula 1 circuit at one stage, thank goodness no more was ever heard of that.

And in Spain a lot of the debt was incurred by the autonomous regions and local Ayuntamientos through unwise borrowing and spending, rather than at national level to bail out banks.

What I would dearly like to see happen is some of the more sensible projects seen through to conclusion and put into service -like the Guadalhorce Hospital de Alta Resolucion which has been finished for at least 3 years now but left standing empty because funds couldn't be found to meet the operating costs. There's a new prison which is in the same position. Having those kinds of places up and running would not only mean quite a lot of new jobs locally, but also more indirect employment in private companies because of all the supply conracts that would be awarded. Not to mention a much needed boost to local services, especially when the Malaga hospitals are reported to be suffering badly because of the cuts.

These things are what we need, not more silly local museums about sugar cane or honey which are never likely to attract more than a handful of visitors and create only a handful of jobs.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Lynn R said:


> In normal cíircumstances I would of course agree with you, Mary. However, I think in many ways Spain's situation is different. There has been so much public spending and improvements to infrastructure during the post-Franco era, up until the global financial crisis struck, that it's almost difficult to see what else they could possibly do by way of worthwhile capital projects. Even some of the ones already completed would probably have been better not started - our tram here in Velez is a classic example, over €40M spent and no trams have run since the summer of 2012 and it's unlikely ever to be resurrected because it's just not financially viable. It was a pet project of our former PSOE Alcalde who was full of grandiose ideas, I even read that we were to have a Formula 1 circuit at one stage, thank goodness no more was ever heard of that.
> 
> And in Spain a lot of the debt was incurred by the autonomous regions and local Ayuntamientos through unwise borrowing and spending, rather than at national level to bail out banks.
> 
> ...


It's true that Spain's problems are complex. But let's not forget that the wise use of EU funds financed many of the infrastructure projects since the post- Franco era and they have long since recouped the cost of their initial expense.
Until the crisis in the construction industry, Spain's borrowing and bond yields presented no problem. The cost of financing paro was the catalyst for large- scale borrowing.
Then of course came the ECB finance for the bank bail -out...and it seems that even huger sums may be asked for in the near future.
But something has to be done to kick- start an economy with serious structural problems.
Putting all the hopes for prosperity into one sector, construction, was a major mistake for many reasons. Apart from the corporate and personal indebtedness there is the tragedy of the lost generation which eschewed further education for the easy lure of the high wages in that sector....a short- lived illusion.
Then, for various cultural and political reasons, Spain has a relatively undeveloped tradition of entrepreneurship.
Conversely, political opposition is too often expressed in terms of a romantic and utopian collectivism based on discredited social and economic theories.
It's interesting that even Gordillo's ' socialist' Marineleda relies on subsidies from the capitalist EU.

I'm not suggesting public money be indiscriminately used merely to shorten the dole queue, far from it. It could be argued that Spain has already far too many public employees. But government's prime responsibility is to govern and it seems that this current government is in a state of permanent drift. 
Yes, worthy projects should be finished and new ones started. I think there was a lot of value in the much- maligned and now abandoned Plan E. Where it failed was because of bad management and local pork barrel politics.
I am a believer in the unfashionable practice of corporatism especially when applied at local level. Local people know local problems and can find the best solutions.

It seems to me that the real and very present danger is that social democracy will show it is powerless in the face of global finance. This can only lead to the triumph of extremes of left and right. Whatever remedy may be suggested for Spain or any country, until we realise the extent of that threat and take action to deal with it, any improvement in terms of more sales of tvs and washing machines or a seasonal reduction in the number of unemployed because of the temporary availability of jobs serving beer and paella to tourists is as effective as sticking a plaster on a torn artery.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

siobhan gomez said:


> Hi I have lived in the Alicante are for 11 years and have seen many changes here especially how difficult things are with the unemployment however finally after 6 years of no work my Spanish partner is finally working , he is not doing a job he enjoys but its work and with a contract which makes life easier , its just sad when he speaks 4 languages and is an electronic engineer but hopefully things will pick up . Still saying all of that I love it here and my 4 children have had and are having a great childhood so I have no regrets at all .


siobhan, I have reposted this in this thread about people living in Spain
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/la-tasca/374305-stories-life-spain-4.html


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Everywhere from West to East along the south coast is reporting fantastic business during Semana Santa (obviously the unusually good weather helped):-


M?s visitantes, m?s gasto y m?s d?as a plena ocupaci?n en una Semana Santa hist?rica. SUR.es

I just wish this would start to have some effect on unemployment.

Tourism might be relatively badly paid and unstable work, but let's face it, it's the main reason why this region became more prosperous than in days of old and probably will be the driver to pull us out of the recession too. I can't ever see much large industrial capacity springing up down here, tbh.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Lynn R said:


> Everywhere from West to East along the south coast is reporting fantastic business during Semana Santa (obviously the unusually good weather helped):-
> 
> 
> M?s visitantes, m?s gasto y m?s d?as a plena ocupaci?n en una Semana Santa hist?rica. SUR.es
> ...


I find it very disturbing that governments in general are not looking for new solutions to the economic problems that we are experiencing. Doing things like "creating", not printing, more money to keep inflation down artificially, and therefore their debts, is not going to help us lead more stable lives in the future. We will most probably lurch as countries or political blocks like the EU, from one disaster to another as we have always done to some extent, but with increasing frequency. Today Spain gets burnt, but next it could be Taiwan and Singapore followed by Brazil for example.
Until someone has the courage, foresight, strength and brilliance to move away from the consumer society as we know it produce -, sell, grow, sell more, expand markets, sell more, create new markets, sell even more etc etc - we are stuck on a hamster's wheel.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Rural tourism seems to be on the rise too - nature trails, birdwatching, climbing and especially mountain-biking. I've never seen so many cyclists in our village! Mainly from Northern Europe; they love the wild scenery and the low prices compared to e.g. Scandinavia.


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## Heli Annika (Apr 17, 2014)

How bad is unemployment in Valencia? Any useful links to statistics around Spain?


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Heli Annika said:


> How bad is unemployment in Valencia? Any useful links to statistics around Spain?


This shows unemployment at regional level. Valencia AC is at 27.3%.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> This shows unemployment at regional level. Valencia AC is at 27.3%.


I think you forgot the link


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Further to comments made earlier in the thread about the improving prospects for tourism, I've counted 13 job adverts in today's Sur in English for chefs, waiters, bar and hotel staff. No idea what the pay rates are likely to be (low, I suspect), but one for a chef does say that a contract will be offered. Nowhere near as many ads as there would have been 6/7 years ago, but more than I've seen for ages.

If this carries on, we may have to start qualifying our near-unanimous advice to those who want to come here looking for work not to bother, at least if they're not looking to earn a fortune.


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## CostaSol (Apr 25, 2014)

Lynn R said:


> And in Spain a lot of the debt was incurred by the autonomous regions and local Ayuntamientos through unwise borrowing and spending, rather than at national level to bail out banks.



I think the problem is that in Spain all business are based on fraud, from the smallest to the largest, and if we carry on like this we can't move towards development. 

I point out as a fresh example a newspaper headline of this month (el País):

"Police probe allegations of *multi-million-euro fraud* scheme in Málaga. Subsidies from Andalusian regional government may have been used to pay for courses never held."


I heard about people who worked offering such courses. In that moment I thought, nice! they found a job... 

And it occurs at all levels. In fact, In the years that we were apparently well, our economic prosperity was based on building speculation.

Spain has lots of good things, but the way in which it runs its economy is not one of them.


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

CostaSol said:


> I think the problem is that in Spain all business are based on fraud, from the smallest to the largest, and if we carry on like this we can't move towards development.
> 
> I point out as a fresh example a newspaper headline of this month (el País):
> 
> ...


My family have lived in Spain for 35 years and have been in business most of that time. I can assure you that fraud plays no part in their affairs. You made a statement that ALL businesses are based on fraud. Please can you expand on that statement, not just for me, but all the businesses where ever they are in Spain.


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## CostaSol (Apr 25, 2014)

I expressed wrong and I can't edit. I wanted to say that in all level of business there are fraud in Spain and that this happens very often.


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

CostaSol said:


> Excuse my English: I wanted to say that in all level of business there are fraud and this happens in a high level in Spain.


Not all!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I find it very disturbing that governments in general are not looking for new solutions to the economic problems that we are experiencing. Doing things like "creating", not printing, more money to keep inflation down artificially, and therefore their debts, is not going to help us lead more stable lives in the future. We will most probably lurch as countries or political blocks like the EU, from one disaster to another as we have always done to some extent, but with increasing frequency. Today Spain gets burnt, but next it could be Taiwan and Singapore followed by Brazil for example.
> Until someone has the courage, foresight, strength and brilliance to move away from the consumer society as we know it produce -, sell, grow, sell more, expand markets, sell more, create new markets, sell even more etc etc - we are stuck on a hamster's wheel.


What is required is a change of economic philosophy away from the neo-liberal market economy model to one where the market serves society and is not its master.
Until that switch is made, everything else will be like sticking plaster on a cut artery.


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