# Thoughts on Life in Mexico City



## Longford

David Lida, resident of Mexico City, author, social commentator, etc., has written a few things about Mexico City for The Guardian, including:



> The city government makes much of Mexico City being the eighth largest urban economy in the world. But shame rather than pride would be the correct response for how the wealth is distributed. About half the population lives at, around or below the poverty level. Half of the working population toils in the informal economy – parking cars, cleaning houses, packing groceries, selling things on the street. The middle class is squeezed month by month rather than daily, while perhaps 10% has a jolly time with plenty of discretionary income. According to Forbes, Mexico’s elite upper class is made up of 1.7% of the population.
> 
> Mexico City is plagued with problems of water distribution – in some of the city’s poorest districts, citizens are without running water for much of the year, and need to have it trucked in – and electricity. Public schools are a mess, and crime, drugs and violence are rampant, particularly in the municipalities of Mexico State that are part of the greater Mexico City sprawl.
> 
> Yet there are many tree-lined neighbourhoods with the quiet sociability of small towns, and others with the generic international hip vibe one finds around the Canal Saint-Martin, Williamsburg, or Kreuzberg. On the street there is a level of courtesy found in few cities in prosperous countries today. People hold doors open for each other, say “good morning” when they get into an elevator, and kiss each other’s cheeks when they are introduced.


Click here, to read the article in its entirety.


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## AlanMexicali

Longford said:


> David Lida, resident of Mexico City, author, social commentator, etc., has written a few things about Mexico City for The Guardian, including:
> 
> Quote:
> "The city government makes much of Mexico City being the eighth largest urban economy in the world. But shame rather than pride would be the correct response for how the wealth is distributed. About half the population lives at, around or below the poverty level. Half of the working population toils in the informal economy – parking cars, cleaning houses, packing groceries, selling things on the street. The middle class is squeezed month by month rather than daily, while perhaps 10% has a jolly time with plenty of discretionary income. According to Forbes, Mexico’s elite upper class is made up of 1.7% of the population.
> 
> Mexico City is plagued with problems of water distribution – in some of the city’s poorest districts, citizens are without running water for much of the year, and need to have it trucked in – and electricity. Public schools are a mess, and crime, drugs and violence are rampant, particularly in the municipalities of Mexico State that are part of the greater Mexico City sprawl.
> 
> Yet there are many tree-lined neighbourhoods with the quiet sociability of small towns, and others with the generic international hip vibe one finds around the Canal Saint-Martin, Williamsburg, or Kreuzberg. On the street there is a level of courtesy found in few cities in prosperous countries today. People hold doors open for each other, say “good morning” when they get into an elevator, and kiss each other’s cheeks when they are introduced."
> 
> 
> Click here, to read the article in its entirety.


It is half negative and the other half positive.

We just returned from Mexico City tonight and enjoyed it very much. We stayed in a new upscale hotel [$600.00 pesos] in Coala 3 blocks from the new 3 story Galería Mall. Mostly everyone was shopping, eating, drinking, sitting around chatting.. lots of young people, and smiling, at the mall.

Took a 7:30 AM taxi ride all the way to Insurgentes Sur, to Polyforum, no problem with traffic.

In the afternoon we took the Metrobus sitting in the front seats and a good view of Insugentes all the way to Indios Verdes metro station, walked underground and got on to take the subway back towards the Polyforun 1 stop to the Centro Camionero del Norte.

It was a nice easy travel day and I didn´t see many people not dressed well and walking around, talking, eating, all the Starbucks were lined up 8AM to 10 and taxis stopping in the lanes where no stopping is allowd and people honking at them.

Lots of SDT pólice in the Polyforum area and many inside the Galaries Mall, Coala with 2 standing at different entrances with machine guns, wierd for me to see this. Other than that everything looked OK.


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## regwill

Drugs and violence are rampant ???


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## Isla Verde

regwill said:


> Drugs and violence are rampant ???


Not in my neighborhood!


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## regwill

Isla Verde said:


> Not in my neighborhood!


Not in mine , from what I've seen . I stay in Neza and Ecatepec .


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## AlanMexicali

AlanMexicali said:


> It is half negative and the other half positive.
> 
> We just returned from Mexico City tonight and enjoyed it very much. We stayed in a new upscale hotel [$600.00 pesos] in Coala 3 blocks from the new 3 story Galerías Mall. Mostly everyone was shopping, eating, drinking, sitting around chatting.. lots of young people, and smiling, at the mall.
> 
> Took a 7:30 AM taxi ride all the way to Insurgentes Sur, to Polyforum, no problem with traffic.
> 
> In the afternoon we took the Metrobus sitting in the front seats and a good view of Insugentes all the way to Indios Verdes metro station, walked underground and got on to take the subway back towards the Polyforun 1 stop to the Centro Camionero del Norte.
> 
> It was a nice easy travel day and I didn´t see many people not dressed well and walking around, talking, eating, all the Starbucks were lined up 8AM to 10 and taxis stopping in the lanes where no stopping is allowd and people honking at them.
> 
> Lots of SDT pólice in the Polyforum area and many inside the Galaries Mall, Coala with 2 standing at different entrances with machine guns, wierd for me to see this. Other than that everything looked OK.


I meant the article is half negative and half positive. Not the city.

We stayed in Coapa,Tlalpan , not Coala.


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## joaquinx

I kept searching for recommendations or possible solutions, but found none. Yes, it was half tourist hype and half rant. At the end, I was asking myself the purpose of this essay. Perhaps, like an etude, written as a practice.


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## lhpdiver

We love Mexico City and are planning a couple day trip sometime before New Years. We have been told the city will empty out at some point over the holidays. Does that start on the 16th ? Do you think the museums at Chapultepec and the Aquarium in Polanco will remain open ? Thanks.


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## Longford

lhpdiver said:


> We love Mexico City and are planning a couple day trip sometime before New Years. We have been told the city will empty out at some point over the holidays. Does that start on the 16th ? Do you think the museums at Chapultepec and the Aquarium in Polanco will remain open ? Thanks.


It's true that many _Capitalinos_ leave the city to visit relatives elsewhere, take a vacation, etc., but, also, Mexican tourists from elsewhere in the country visit Mexico City on vacation. My guess is that most residents just stay in the city and enjoy the vacation period most have. 

Some small stores and businesses typically close for the vacation period, and there's not much corporate-type of business conducted. Historic sites and other attractions remain open according to their published schedules in effect for the rest of the year, best I can recollect. 

I might be mistaken, but my recollection is that the last day of school is December 19th and that the kids return on January 5th. Many people remain at home until after Christmas Day and then take a trip starting the 26th. There's no hard and fast protocol people follow. 

_El Dia de Reyes_ (January 6) is still a popular/festive day in the city.


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## AlanMexicali

"A city without limits

Incredible images that show the city of Mexico from above show just what being the most populous city in the western hemisphere. The suburbs of Mexico City are home to 20 million souls with a staggering 25,400 people per square mile city.

"Flying over Mexico City has always been an overwhelming experience," says Luz Lopez, who took the photos of the cockpit of a small 2 seater plane.. "It seems the cityscape endless stretches endlessly over the hills and plains of the city."


The hills and valleys are not allowed to stay on the path of human life here. Houses and continue to cover both the rise and fall of the land so the eye can see and the Mexican photographer Pablo Lopez Luz has captured this phenomenon of dazzling way.

"In a megalopolis like Mexico City," says Luz Lopez, "constantly threatened by her relentless population growth and lack of infrastructure, the relationship between man and space is always so obvious. ""

http://hellodf.com/mexicopablolopezluz/


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## Isla Verde

joaquinx said:


> I kept searching for recommendations or possible solutions, but found none. Yes, it was half tourist hype and half rant. At the end, I was asking myself the purpose of this essay. Perhaps, like an etude, written as a practice.


Though David Lida, an expat in Mexico like the rest of us, is touted as an expert on Mexico City, I've not found his writing much to my liking, often superficial and with an emphasis on the odd and obscure.


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## Longford

> Some areas of the city are sinking as much as one inch per month.




Click here, to read more.


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## citlali

Mexico city is a great city. We are here rigt now having a ball and I wish we could stay another week. There is so much to see and do. We do not live here so I cannot comment on life here but I love spending time here. My sister lives in Paris and was commenting how relax and friendly the city is compared to Paris. This time we stayed in the Colonia San Rafael in a neat little hotel. There are no tourists in the area as it is not considered a "nice " area and we have a ball exporing the city during the day.


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## Isla Verde

citlali said:


> Mexico city is a great city. We are here rigt now having a ball and I wish we could stay another week. There is so much to see and do. We do not live here so I cannot comment on life here but I love spending time here. My sister lives in Paris and was commenting how relax and friendly the city is compared to Paris. This time we stayed in the Colonia San Rafael in a neat little hotel. There are no tourists in the area as it is not considered a "nice " area and we have a ball exporing the city during the day.


Wouldn't you agree, citlali, that Mexico City, especially the Centro Histórico, is a great "walking city"?


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## alfaetrin

Isla Verde said:


> Wouldn't you agree, citlali, that Mexico City, especially the Centro Histórico, is a great "walking city"?


Yes, the centro historico is great for walking around, with many interesting sites close together and within easy walking distance of each other. Coyoacan too is very pleasant to stroll around.

Another feature of Mexico City that we have noticed over the years is worthy of note. Since the 1980s we have visited Mexico city once every two years, staying for around two or three weeks each time. I remember when I stepped off the plane on my first few visits, the smell of the air pollution would hit me instantly, making me feel as if I was standing behind a car exhaust. Progressively, however, on each visit, the pollution has seemed less noticeable. All through the 1990s and 2000s this improvement was evident. On my last couple of visits, admittedly during the summer when pollution is lower anyway, there has barely been any noticeable smell in the air. Also, I am seeing views of Popo and Ixta from the city that are sometimes breath-taking, and that I would surely have noticed before if they had been visible. Mexico City seems to be winning its battle with air pollution, although I haven't bothered to dig out stats to prove this.


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## lhpdiver

We do our fair share of walking when we visit Mexico City - but I also enjoy getting the daily pass for Turibus - especially when the weather is nice. I believe you get a 50% discount with INAPAM.


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## Longford

Isla Verde said:


> Wouldn't you agree, citlali, that Mexico City, especially the Centro Histórico, is a great "walking city"?


Here's a map published by _El Universal_ newspaper in 2013 which details the streets/areas in Centro Historico (and adjacent) and the assessment of safety/security:









Source: El Universal


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## citlali

According to this map there are not too many safe areas for walking.. Thank God I did ot look at it last week I would have skipped some nice walk. I think this city is like many others, you should be aware of your surrounding not carry a bunch of money and pay attention to where you are going.

I have to meet someone tonight at the Sonora Market accross from La Merced and at night I just take a cab and do not go walking around in the area but I have walked that area during the day. I wear jeans no jewelry the mone I have is on my person and I have some change and small bills in my pocket not unlike New York before the city got cleaned up.


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## Longford

citlali said:


> According to this map there are not too many safe areas for walking.. Thank God I did ot look at it last week I would have skipped some nice walk. I think this city is like many others, you should be aware of your surrounding not carry a bunch of money and pay attention to where you are going.
> 
> I have to meet someone tonight at the Sonora Market accross from La Merced and at night I just take a cab and do not go walking around in the area but I have walked that area during the day. I wear jeans no jewelry the mone I have is on my person and I have some change and small bills in my pocket not unlike New York before the city got cleaned up.


I think that the risks portrayed on the map I posted are, for the most part, present after dark/at night. Some of those areas are a bit edgy during the day as well, IMO. It's possible for someone (an infrequent visitor to a particular area) to feel safe even when in a high-risk area, because they just don't know/understand where they are and they weren't victimized ... so they tell others it's just fine. 

I'm very familiar with both Mercado Sonora and Mercado La Merced and shopped at each, frequently. I still visit each, during each visit to the city. During daylight hours I don't worry about those two market areas, because I have a lot of experience with them and the neighborhoods whee they're located and _think_ I can sense when danger/risk is present. Risks change as the day gets longer/shorter, after dark as contrasted with middle of the day. About valuables: i do as you do: I don't carry much of value on me. However, I do carry enough to surrender to someone who may hold me up on the street (which has happened to me probably a half dozen times over two decades in the D.F.). Nothing pisses-off someone wanting to rob you more than finding that their intended victem/target doesn't have anything to take.


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## citlali

Posted by Hound Dog on Citlali's site and not representative of her views or responsibilties. We are on the road and I forgot my password:

Yes, it is easy to presume, if one is not that familiar with a particular city anywhere, for an urban waliking zone to be OK for transit because one survived the experience once or even on several occasions. Citlali and I and her sister from Paris have been strolling about extensive parts of the DF historical center and Coyoacan during the past week or so but mainly during the day when pedestrian thoroughfares are quite busy and this is not, by any means, our first visit to the megalopolis which we find, at least in certain areas, to be a great strolling city. As one poster pointed out, as long as the visitor strolls about certain areas, it is hard to imagine the intense poverty that strangles this huge city and the dangers one can encounter by simply taking a wrong turn in a place where the characteristics of the urban zone can change dramatically and, at first, imperceptably for the stranger in town for a visit. On our last visit to DF, we found ourselves in the center in a taxi from the airport with traffic blocked and our facing the prospect of crossing one of the city's most dangerous neighborhoods with luggage in hand well into the night. My guess is we never woiuld have made it but, fortunately, the taxi driver took compassion on us and delivered us to our hotel door despite the agonizingly slow and arduous drive. That guy earned a substantial tip that night.

It's interesting how these urban adventures work out in any city - not just a city like Mexico City with great poverty and maldistribution of what wealth there is. A few years ago, when we were living in relatively wealthy San Francisco, we had old friend visitors from Connecticut, one of whom had decided to stroll about the largely unintimidating city alone and, get this, this guy had been a hard nosed New York Citt street cop for many years and was one tough SOB. He made the innocent decision to walk between two affluent San Francisco neighborhoods (from Polk Street to Downtown) over a seemingly innocuous area with no indication on the map that he would have to transit the very dangerous and poverty stricken neighborhood known locally as The Tenderloin. After all, no publisher of maps of the city dared brand this neighborhood as a several block hellhole of myriad drunks and theives festering in the heart of an ortherwise affluent city for no other reason than it happened to be there and had been there forever. The Tenderloin, like so many of these enclaves of nere-do-well criminals, had no logical reason for existing there and, also, like so many dysfuncional neighborhoods with these characteristics, the pedestrian stranger has no idea he/she has ventured into this mess by wandering innocently into this den of theives from an affluent area until suddenly realizing that he/she is there and backing out is not so simple and the only exit back into civilzation is straight ahead past unsettling gangs of ruffians, trying to appear nonchalant while simultaneously being frightened out of one's wits. Fortunately, our tough-assed New York cop walked through this cauldron of violence which even the San Francisco cops avoid when possible, in one piece with moneybags and health intact but, upon this street-fighter cop´s return to our home in San Francisco still a fear-induced basket case having run the gamut of thtieves, drunks and killers, that concentrated in that one small San Francisco ghetto, we felt that it would be prudent in the future for us to watch our steps in any place with which we are unfamiliar wherther in be DF or any other urban (or rural for that matter) zone.

Hound Dog


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## TundraGreen

citlali said:


> Posted by Hound Dog on Citlali's site and not representative of her views or responsibilties. We are on the road and I forgot my password:
> 
> …
> A few years ago, when we were living in relatively wealthy San Francisco, we had old friend visitors from Connecticut, one of whom had decided to stroll about the largely unintimidating city alone and, get this, this guy had been a hard nosed New York Citt street cop for many years and was one tough SOB. He made the innocent decision to walk between two affluent San Francisco neighborhoods (from Polk Street to Downtown) over a seemingly innocuous area with no indication on the map that he would have to transit the very dangerous and poverty stricken neighborhood known locally as The Tenderloin. After all, no publisher of maps of the city dared brand this neighborhood as a several block hellhole of myriad drunks and theives festering in the heart of an ortherwise affluent city for no other reason than it happened to be there and had been there forever. The Tenderloin, like so many of these enclaves of nere-do-well criminals, had no logical reason for existing there and, also, like so many dysfuncional neighborhoods with these characteristics, the pedestrian stranger has no idea he/she has ventured into this mess by wandering innocently into this den of theives from an affluent area until suddenly realizing that he/she is there and backing out is not so simple and the only exit back into civilzation is straight ahead past unsettling gangs of ruffians, trying to appear nonchalant while simultaneously being frightened out of one's wits. Fortunately, our tough-assed New York cop walked through this cauldron of violence which even the San Francisco cops avoid when possible, in one piece with moneybags and health intact but, upon this street-fighter cop´s return to our home in San Francisco still a fear-induced basket case having run the gamut of thtieves, drunks and killers, that concentrated in that one small San Francisco ghetto, we felt that it would be prudent in the future for us to watch our steps in any place with which we are unfamiliar wherther in be DF or any other urban (or rural for that matter) zone.
> 
> Hound Dog


A very colorful description of the Tenderloin in San Francisco, but I fear it greatly exaggerates the colorfulness and the hazard of that particular area. I would characterize it more as an area that is depressing and sad to see. I haven't lived in San Francisco for awhile now, quite a while actually, so maybe my opinion is out of date.


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## lhpdiver

TundraGreen said:


> A very colorful description of the Tenderloin in San Francisco, but I fear it greatly exaggerates the colorfulness and the hazard of that particular area. I would characterize it more as an area that is depressing and sad to see. I haven't lived in San Francisco for awhile now, quite a while actually, so maybe my opinion is out of date.


That story caused me to remember two events in my life I had forgotten. Some 40 years ago I was bar-hopping with a friend in the Upper East Side of Manhattan. At one point my friend met a girl and I had had enough. At the time I was living in Fort Lee, NJ. Well about 11 or 12PM I walked home - through Harlem, across the George Washington Bridge. The sun was rising about the time I got home. The other time, perhaps 30 years ago, my wife and I were driving through Miami and got off at the wrong exit from I-95. We found ourselves in Overtown. We must have looked really out of place because a cop turned on his lights, pulled us over, hollered at us and then had us follow him out of the area and back onto the highway.


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## travelinhobo

Last Sunday, I walked around Doctores. This is probably considered the 2nd or 3rd most dangerous neighborhood in the city. I've been told by Mexicans not to move there and really not to go there. But to be quite honest, I didn't what was so bad about it after my walk. The streets are actually rather wide compared to many other neighborhoods, which you would think would make the crime lower. At any rate, while there isn't much to do/see there, it didn't look as bad as its reputation. That said, I will say that some 5 years ago I had an appt. to go see an apt. and when I exited the Ninos metro station, there was a guy sitting on the edge of the pharmacy there injecting himself with drugs. I never went back after that, but it's 5 years later and things do change in this city. Next area of the city I'm gonna stroll thru - Tepito. Stay tuned.


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## citlali

I would not stroled through Tepito at night but I have no problem doing it during the eday. Same with the La Merced and the Sonora Market area. One of the artisan I know lives right at the back of the market and at his time f the year there is no way to get to his house without walking through the market. I usually have a reason to be in the area and I do not walk around with expensive clothes and pay attention to where I am going and frankly it is no more dangerous than a stroll through the streets of the Vieux Port in Marseille.. Actually I think it is probably a whole ot safer but then I speak Spanish and not Arabic..


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## GARYJ65

I can tell you the same; perhaps you feel bold and like visiting places known to be dangerous, maybe you will be lucky and nothing bad will happen to you and you will post about it, but we Mexicans know those are very very dangerous places, we don't make it up.
Just be extra careful


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## Rwrobb

Yes even here in Canada you can run into a bad situation. A few years ago I had driven a motorhome from Ontario to British Columbia to visit some relatives. It was around 2 O,Clock in the morning when I finally arrived in Vancouver. I had pulled off the first cutoff to the city to get my bearings and phone my relatives. I didn,t know at the time I was in East Vancouver ( The very worst place to be at that time of night). I stopped in a parking lot and got out to use the phone booth and happened to notice a car pull up with an older gentleman in it that had seen my license plate from Ontario. He rolled his window down and yelled at me to get back in my rig right away. He asked me where I was going and I told him West Vancouver ( rich fancy area). He said to follow him and he would direct me to where I was supposed to be. Might not have turned out so good if he hadn,t shown up at the right time. Yet when I used to be in Acapulco I used to wander the streets at all times of the night and not on the main drag where all the tourists hang out. Mexican bars and sometimes I would be the only white guy in the place. I had Mexican friends that I would run into but I still shake my head when all my other tourist friends told me I was lucky to make it home. Not a very smart thing to do. In this day and age I would never do that.


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## Longford

Rwrobb said:


> ... but I still shake my head when all my other tourist friends told me I was lucky to make it home. Not a very smart thing to do. In this day and age I would never do that.


:amen:


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## lhpdiver

Planning a trip into Mexico City for next week.
We need to get from Tasquena to the Angel. I'm looking at a map of the metro line. Looks like we take the No 2 line from tasquena north to where it runs into the No 1 line (not clear from the map what that stop is called. Do we stay on until Insurgentes and is that an easy walk from there to the Angel ? Thanks

Mexico City Metro Map (Mexico-On-Line)


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## Isla Verde

lhpdiver said:


> Planning a trip into Mexico City for next week.
> We need to get from Tasquena to the Angel. I'm looking at a map of the metro line. Looks like we take the No 2 line from tasquena north to where it runs into the No 1 line (not clear from the map what that stop is called. Do we stay on until Insurgentes and is that an easy walk from there to the Angel ? Thanks
> 
> Mexico City Metro Map (Mexico-On-Line)


At Tasqueña, take Metro line 2 going to Cuatro Caminos. Get off at Pino Suárez and change to the pink line (#1) going to Observatorio. Get off at Insurgentes. In the Insurgentes glorieta, look for the exit labeled Génova. Once you're in the Zona Rosa, walk along Génova till you get to Reforma, a walk of a few minutes. El Angel will be a few short blocks away to your left.


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## joaquinx

Pino Suarez is the stop, change to the #1 Metro and get off at Insurgentes. You can go up either Calle Amberes or Florencia to the Ángel.


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## lhpdiver

Thank you both.


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## maesonna

Here is a link to a clearer, and up-to-date map of the metro. On the map, click to enlarge.


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## surfrider

When I think of Mexico City there is a certain magical draw for me to the place because of the history. Many of the cities in the world that have this draw to people are in places where the natural land was not designed to hold the amount of people that want to live there. Cancun is a bowl created by meteorite impact AND South Florida - half of China I


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## TundraGreen

surfrider said:


> When I think of Mexico City there is a certain magical draw for me to the place because of the history. Many of the cities in the world that have this draw to people are in places where the natural land was not designed to hold the amount of people that want to live there. Cancun is a bowl created by meteorite impact AND South Florida - half of China I


Cancun is probably near the rim of the crater caused by a comet/asteroid impact 66 million years ago. The center was offshore near Progreso. The Chicxulub impact produced climatic effects that resulted in the extinction of all of the non-avian dinosaurs. Not much evidence of the crater is left in the topography, but it is visible in geology, minerals and magnetics in the area. Water in the crater probably dissolved limestone rocks and created the cenotes for which the area is famous.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicxulub_crater


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## surfrider

Very true. 
My point is that most of the interesting places are not in safe area´s really. Los Angeles is on completely unstable ground, South Florida - New Orleans - Venus - the list is giant, yet people flock to these places and property values go up and up...along with the dangers, not only physical danger because of the congestion of people but of natural results of too many people on land that was not constructed to hold that amount of people. 

I am not a ¨green earth¨type of person but I have noticed that our world has some certain places where people are draw to the area and usually the land supporting these places is in stress. Yellowstone comes to my mind - Now I do not think that really there is much we can do about nature and the sinking of cities or the volcanoes blowing up land but I do think that these places are very special and before events in either your life or the life of the land take them from us we should see as many of these places as possible. 

Danger caused by people - it is there, and yes be careful. Danger with the natural causes could happen while your there - yes...it is present. But to not go and not see ? ... Michoacan is one beautiful place with so much history. Mexico City is is just one of those places that you should see. Do not go it is dangerous many will say. I say go with intelligence and use your head to be safe. 

Fear - either of natural causes or man is still fear and having fear control where you go or what you are involved it can stop you from living a life ..from seeing a beautiful world and meeting wonderful people...ya the volcano may explode when your there...There could be an earth quake and you might die in it. Life if full of things that could or will happen but right NOW is the period of time that you are living in.


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## Isla Verde

surfrider said:


> Fear - either of natural causes or man is still fear and having fear control where you go or what you are involved it can stop you from living a life ..from seeing a beautiful world and meeting wonderful people...ya the volcano may explode when your there...There could be an earth quake and you might die in it. Life if full of things that could or will happen but right NOW is the period of time that you are living in.


Great thoughts as the new year approaches. Thanks for sharing them with us, surfrider. And ¡Felices fiestas! to all of us!


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## Hound Dog

TundraGreen said:


> A very colorful description of the Tenderloin in San Francisco, but I fear it greatly exaggerates the colorfulness and the hazard of that particular area. I would characterize it more as an area that is depressing and sad to see. I haven't lived in San Francisco for awhile now, quite a while actually, so maybe my opinion is out of date.


Well, TG, we just got back from a short two week trip to DF and Oaxaca City and, therefore, my delayed response to your observation is meant only to clarify that my little story about The Tenderloin neighborhood of San Francisco was meant to be anectodal in character rather than a summary of the dangers of that down-and-out section of that town inhabited largely by drunks, cheap whores and pimps, flophouses, thieves and fine restaurunts and hotels. A normal San Francisco paradox but not intended to be the focus of my comment which was really about that hard-nosed New York City cop finding himself in an unfamiliar urban zone and having suddenly and correctly perceived that zone as dangerous to his well-being. I could have laid the story in Downtown Oakland across the bay where I lived and worked for years - a truly dangerous and marginally lawless place or Downtown Mobile, a place where I also lived for some time where one had best be on one´s guard or, for that matter, certain áreas of París or Dar Es Salaam or Mumbai to just touch the surface of urban living on the planet. 

The closest I ever came to being shot as best I can remember, was when I had the temerity to naively observe the presidential palace of the then dictator of extreme communitist Zanizibar back in 1969 - a man with no sense of humor whatsoever. Prudence is always a virtue when trodding unknown turf.


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## Isla Verde

Hound Dog said:


> The closest I ever came to being shot as best I can remember, was when I had the temerity to naively observe the presidential palace of the then dictator of extreme communitist Zanizibar back in 1969 - a man with no sense of humor whatsoever. Prudence is always a virtue when trodding unknown turf.


Why is it that people with extreme views, political or otherwise, often have no sense of humor


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## surfrider

Intensity Isla Verde, their too intent about everything to laugh.. Hound Dog, I was working in Watts at Goodyear Tire and Rubber Company when the Watts riots started with a molotov cocktail thrown into the building across the street from my office. I thought that it might be a good time to leave work early so I did just that. In my car I stopped at a signal light at the corner of the street where I worked. Before I knew it I had one man with 1/2 of his body in my car telling me what a pretty white girl I was and another man with a gun at the other side of my car walking to the door of that side. I just floored it and took off with this man half in my car holding on so I hit him in the nose and he let go of the door with one hand to hold his nose and then I hit him again and he fell out of the car. My boss wanted me back at work the next day - ya right. I quite. Watts burned and I got a better job. I also had a gun put to my head when I sold real estate - went to go to a listing and there was someone there robbing the place. 
Another time I was at work and the office was next door to a bank and the bank got robbed and shots went through the window - I was sitting at the front. 
Now if you have read some of the stuff that I have said about Mexico being safe - now you know why... Mexico was safe safe safe...Working in the states was a little scary.


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## ojosazules11

surfrider said:


> Intensity Isla Verde, their too intent about everything to laugh.. Hound Dog, I was working in Watts at Goodyear Tire and Rubber Company when the Watts riots started with a molotov cocktail thrown into the building across the street from my office. I thought that it might be a good time to leave work early so I did just that. In my car I stopped at a signal light at the corner of the street where I worked. Before I knew it I had one man with 1/2 of his body in my car telling me what a pretty white girl I was and another man with a gun at the other side of my car walking to the door of that side. I just floored it and took off with this man half in my car holding on so I hit him in the nose and he let go of the door with one hand to hold his nose and then I hit him again and he fell out of the car. My boss wanted me back at work the next day - ya right. I quite. Watts burned and I got a better job. I also had a gun put to my head when I sold real estate - went to go to a listing and there was someone there robbing the place.
> Another time I was at work and the office was next door to a bank and the bank got robbed and shots went through the window - I was sitting at the front.
> Now if you have read some of the stuff that I have said about Mexico being safe - now you know why... Mexico was safe safe safe...Working in the states was a little scary.


Your stories caused me to reminisce, and while I've never had a gun put to my head, there have been several times I unwittingly found - or put - myself in situations which could be described as .... precarious. Whether in the US, Canada, Guatemala, Mexico, Germany - I generally didn't recognize the scope of the situation until after the fact, and then it was "Oh my gosh - that could have turned out way worse..." I've often thought that if there are guardian angels, I've made mine work overtime.


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## Hound Dog

_


surfrider said:



Intensity Isla Verde, their too intent about everything to laugh.. Hound Dog, I was working in Watts at Goodyear Tire and Rubber Company when the Watts riots started with a molotov cocktail thrown into the building across the street from my office. I thought that it might be a good time to leave work early so I did just that. In my car I stopped at a signal light at the corner of the street where I worked. Before I knew it I had one man with 1/2 of his body in my car telling me what a pretty white girl I was and another man with a gun at the other side of my car walking to the door of that side. I just floored it and took off with this man half in my car holding on so I hit him in the nose and he let go of the door with one hand to hold his nose and then I hit him again and he fell out of the car. My boss wanted me back at work the next day - ya right. I quite. Watts burned and I got a better job. I also had a gun put to my head when I sold real estate - went to go to a listing and there was someone there robbing the place. 
Another time I was at work and the office was next door to a bank and the bank got robbed and shots went through the window - I was sitting at the front. 
Now if you have read some of the stuff that I have said about Mexico being safe - now you know why... Mexico was safe safe safe...Working in the states was a little scary.

Click to expand...

_Good yarn, surfrider:

I moved to L.A.in 1966 driving across country from South Alabama and this was just after the Watts Riots for those of you long in tooth. I knew nothing about L.A. except that it was Chuck Berry´s (my hero in those days) _"Promised Land". _ Because the Watts Riots had been among the first really dangerous anarchic happenings in North America in those days, I was a bit apprehensive about driving through East Los Angeles, a neighborhood with which I was unfamiliar but in which Watts was a part.

I was a South Alabama White boy seeking to escape the racial animosity of that región then so manifest and move to the liberated Los Angeles Basin. I was in for a surprise.

I had decided to move to Hermosa Beach just south of Santa Monica on the Pacific. I had decided on Hermosa Beach because I wanted. in those days, to be part of the
surfing culture reputed to be thereabouts - nothing more. Once I rented a shack on the beach in Hermosa Beach, the landlord walked up to me and declared, unsolicited, that I should nbot worry about blacks coming into Hermosa Beach from East L.A. as they had city cops on the border between Torance and Hermosa Beach who would beat the sh*t out of any blacks from East L.A. who tried to cross that Torrance-Hermosa Beach line.

Welcome to L.A., Alabama white boy.


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## Longford

surfrider said:


> Fear - either of natural causes or man is still fear and having fear control where you go or what you are involved it can stop you from living a life ...


Yes, some people can let fear control their life. But I don't think anyone is talking about that type of fear ... as regards Mexico City. When questions arise about Mexico City and safety in the city I've never recommended staying away from the city. What I've done is to point-out areas where risks are greater so that someone unfamiliar with the city can make an informed judgment regarding where to visit in the city and when. I think it would be foolish for visitors to completely disregard whatever risks ... bad or good ... which may be present.


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## mattoleriver

surfrider said:


> Very true.
> ...Los Angeles is on completely unstable ground, South Florida - New Orleans - Venus - the list is giant, yet people flock to these places and property values go up and up...


Venus does have some serious drawbacks but remains uncrowded even during the high season.

George


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## Isla Verde

mattoleriver said:


> Venus does have some serious drawbacks but remains uncrowded even during the high season.
> 
> George


Venus, the second planet from the sun? One drawback could be the lack of a breathable atmosphere!


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## TundraGreen

Isla Verde said:


> Venus, the second planet from the sun? One drawback could be the lack of a breathable atmosphere!


We are about to be replaced by our machines. They won't be as worried about the air quality as we are.


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## ojosazules11

TundraGreen said:


> We are about to be replaced by our machines. They won't be as worried about the air quality as we are.


Resistance is futile.


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## surfrider

Longford said:


> Yes, some people can let fear control their life. But I don't think anyone is talking about that type of fear ... as regards Mexico City. When questions arise about Mexico City and safety in the city I've never recommended staying away from the city. What I've done is to point-out areas where risks are greater so that someone unfamiliar with the city can make an informed judgment regarding where to visit in the city and when. I think it would be foolish for visitors to completely disregard whatever risks ... bad or good ... which may be present.


I agree and you can tell usually when your in a bad area. If you are get out.


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## surfrider

Hound Dog said:


> Good yarn, surfrider:
> 
> I moved to L.A.in 1966 driving across country from South Alabama and this was just after the Watts Riots for those of you long in tooth. I knew nothing about L.A. except that it was Chuck Berry´s (my hero in those days) _"Promised Land". _ Because the Watts Riots had been among the first really dangerous anarchic happenings in North America in those days, I was a bit apprehensive about driving through East Los Angeles, a neighborhood with which I was unfamiliar but in which Watts was a part.
> 
> I was a South Alabama White boy seeking to escape the racial animosity of that región then so manifest and move to the liberated Los Angeles Basin. I was in for a surprise.
> 
> I had decided to move to Hermosa Beach just south of Santa Monica on the Pacific. I had decided on Hermosa Beach because I wanted. in those days, to be part of the
> surfing culture reputed to be thereabouts - nothing more. Once I rented a shack on the beach in Hermosa Beach, the landlord walked up to me and declared, unsolicited, that I should nbot worry about blacks coming into Hermosa Beach from East L.A. as they had city cops on the border between Torance and Hermosa Beach who would beat the sh*t out of any blacks from East L.A. who tried to cross that Torrance-Hermosa Beach line.
> 
> Welcome to L.A., Alabama white boy.



Use to go to 22nd st. for the boys... but surfed at Trestles and Huntington. Took my kid one time to the pier at Huntington and told him that I use to shoot the pier. He looked down and said ¨that was stupid¨. could not help but laugh cause he was right.


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## surfrider

mattoleriver said:


> Venus does have some serious drawbacks but remains uncrowded even during the high season.
> 
> George


OK so I spelled the word wrong, was in too much of a rush sorry about the error. and how do you know that it is uncrowded ?


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## TundraGreen

surfrider said:


> OK so I spelled the word wrong, was in too much of a rush sorry about the error. and how do you know that it is uncrowded ?


Leaving aside the jokes about the planet Venus, are we talking about Venice, Italy or Venice Beach, California?


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## Longford

surfrider said:


> ... you can tell usually when your in a bad area. If you are get out.


In Mexico City, where the dividing line between colonias is a calle or avenida, and where one colonia considered safe is adjacent to one considered not so safe ... someone unfamiliar with the city, and even persons who live in one part of the D.F. who is unfamiliar with other parts ... can easily wander into areas which present greater risks. Have a look at the map I posted earlier in this discussion which details streets in the historic center of Mexico City, and adjacent, and the number of crimes reported on those streets. We often read on web forums postings from tourists who've visited Mexico City say the city is perfectly safe because they walked around unmolested. More often than not ... they don't know what they're talking about when it comes to safety in the city, other than their own limited personal experience.


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## citlali

Most cities are the same way, you can cross a street and you can feel the scene change, it is not rocket science if you do not feel comfortable in an area do not go therem or get out.


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## surfrider

TundraGreen said:


> Leaving aside the jokes about the planet Venus, are we talking about Venice, Italy or Venice Beach, California?[/QUOTE
> 
> I was thinking when I wrote that about Italy but last time I saw Venice Beach it also was at a stress level. I use to surf the coast and today the surfers that I still am in contact with have some serious skin problems because of the water. I had stopped surfing in the water along the coast back around the middle of the 70´s for two reasons. Too many people in the water with surf boards that did not know how to surf and two the stuff I was finding in the water along with the oil and tar that was on top of the water.


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## maesonna

What is a ‘bad area’ in Mexico City? Is it a working-class or majority unemployed neighbourhood that looks run-down and garbage-strewn, with cinder-block shacks and corrugated roofs? Or is it a place like Polanco, where there have been more than a few taxi hold-ups and restaurant shootings because 1) rich pickings and/or 2) where the rich people (including those whose gains are ill-gotten) hang out?

My idea of a ‘bad’ or ‘unsafe’ area got expanded since the only time I was mugged was: around noon, on a bright sunny day, on the sidewalk of a major avenue a few blocks from a world-renowned tourist spot and also a few blocks from my home.


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## citlali

Funny someone lifted my wallet right out of my purse in NY on Park Avenue at 8 AM in front of the Waldorf Astoria. I did do some work in the late 70´s in the Bronx and some other "bad areas" but nothing happened to me there either.

I call an area dangerous when you are at risk of being knifed or shot.. having your wallet lifted can happen anywhere and is part of living in a large city anywhere in the world or just about anywhere.
I think we are more likely to have something taken from us when our defenses are down because the area is "safe".

Following a "warning map" to the letter is silly...so the SEP builduing in Mexico is in the danger zone?? Thank Goodness I did not see this map until afer I went there.. 
La Merced and the Sonora market are in areas where you have to watch your wallet as well but so are any other markets. Someone got my purse 2 blocks from the house at the market in San Cristobal..that is what happens in markets if you are not paying attention.


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## Longford

citlali said:


> I think we are more likely to have something taken from us when our defenses are down because the area is "safe".


More likely to occur when someone blindly thinks an area in which safety risks may be greater, without really knowing. Ignorance can be bliss. 



> Following a "warning map" to the letter is silly...so the SEP builduing in Mexico is in the danger zone?? Thank Goodness I did not see this map until afer I went there..


I haven't read back through the comments to see if anyone described the areas of the warning map "dangerous," but what the map illustrates is the number of reported crimes. It's generally accepted that only a miniscule number of criminal events are ever reported, so one can reasonably assume the numbers are greater. 

The more and better information people have access to the more enjoyable trip they will have, IMO. Ignoring the information completely is like sticking ones head in sand .. repeating over and over as if trying to convince themselves _it can happen anywhere_. We're talking about a specific area, at a specific time. The _here and now_, so to speak.

David Lida's comments (which prompted this discussion thread) are those of one person who probably has a more intimate or different view/experience in the city than most expats who post here. He expressed _his_ opinions based on _those_ experiences .. as others have expressed theirs.


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## Isla Verde

Longford said:


> David Lida's comments (which prompted this discussion thread) are those of one person who probably has a more intimate or different view/experience in the city than most expats who post here. He expressed _his_ opinions based on _those_ experiences .. as others have expressed theirs.


Of course, everyone's experiences are different. Why should those of just another expat living in Mexico City be taken as the gospel truth because he is a somewhat well-known writer?


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## Longford

Isla Verde said:


> Of course, everyone's experiences are different. Why should those of just another expat living in Mexico City be taken as the gospel truth because he is a somewhat well-known writer?


Whose comments are being taken _as the gospel of truth_?


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## Hound Dog

Longford said:


> More likely to occur when someone blindly thinks an area in which safety risks may be greater, without really knowing. Ignorance can be bliss.
> 
> I haven't read back through the comments to see if anyone described the areas of the warning map "dangerous," but what the map illustrates is the number of reported crimes. It's generally accepted that only a miniscule number of criminal events are ever reported, so one can reasonably assume the numbers are greater.
> 
> The more and better information people have access to the more enjoyable trip they will have, IMO. Ignoring the information completely is like sticking ones head in sand .. repeating over and over as if trying to convince themselves _it can happen anywhere_. We're talking about a specific area, at a specific time. The _here and now_, so to speak.
> 
> David Lida's comments (which prompted this discussion thread) are those of one person who probably has a more intimate or different view/experience in the city than most expats who post here. He expressed _his_ opinions based on _those_ experiences .. as others have expressed theirs.


Just as an aside, when excerpting portions of quotes of comments made by others regarding any subject publicly posted on any internet fórum, especially when excerpted partial "quotes" might cause the reader to misconstrue what the original author meant to say; it is customary to call attention to the editing being performed by the quoter preceding the excerpted quote with three dots as in"..." and closing with four dots as in "...." if the edited quote represents closing of a thought pattern being expressed by that person having been quoted. 

To fail to employ these common English usages to clarify an editing process is to defy protocol and is also unfair to that person being quoted as partially excerpted quotes can completely redefine what the person quoted meant to say. I call this the "Earl Butts Syndrome" for those of you old enough to know what I mean by that.


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## Hound Dog

_


Longford said:



Whose comments are being taken as the gospel of truth?

Click to expand...

_Perhaps you might find it helpful to think less literally, amigo. Isla Verde´s comments were not confrontational as I see them.

Relax.


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## surfrider

This Christmas eve and the thoughts are of evil things that could and do occur. Not to over look realities but should not the beauty be seen as well as the ugly? Just a thought.


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## Anonimo

Longford said:


> In Mexico City, where the dividing line between colonias is a calle or avenida, and where one colonia considered safe is adjacent to one considered not so safe ... someone unfamiliar with the city, and even persons who live in one part of the D.F. who is unfamiliar with other parts ... can easily wander into areas which present greater risks. Have a look at the map I posted earlier in this discussion which details streets in the historic center of Mexico City, and adjacent, and the number of crimes reported on those streets. We often read on web forums postings from tourists who've visited Mexico City say the city is perfectly safe because they walked around unmolested. More often than not ... they don't know what they're talking about when it comes to safety in the city, other than their own limited personal experience.



I'm thinking, as an example, N-S Avenida Cuauhtemoc, where it separates the ostensibly dangerous Colonia Doctores from the fashionable Colonia Roma. Why would the bad guys stay in Doctores when the wealth is in Roma?


We have walked around Doctores more than a few times, without incident. Does that mean it's safe? Not every visit results in a negative incident. On the other hand, we were accosted by two menacing punks within a stone's throw of the Parroquia Sagrada Familia in Roma. Nothing came of it except we were creeped out. Does that make the intersection of Calle Orizaba and Calle Puebla a dangerous zone. (Hardly. It's one of the pinnacles of Colonia Roma Norte.)


But move a couple of blocks west on Calle Puebla toward Av. Insurgentes and sleazy elements appear; sex shop, prostitution and solvent sniffing punks. I may have missed a few. (On the positive side, some of the best tacos de guisados in the city.)

Danger is dependent on many variables and it's hard to predict. It's complex and simple answers are elusive.


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## Longford

Hound Dog said:


> Perhaps you might find it helpful to think less literally, amigo. Isla Verde´s comments were not confrontational as I see them.
> 
> Relax.


I'll suggest that it's you who should relax. Why? Because you assumed my question was a negative or assumed the maker of the comment I quoted was being confrontational. If you have a question about the intent of a comment just ask ... instead of jumping to conclusions.


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## Longford

Anonimo said:


> I'm thinking, as an example, N-S Avenida Cuauhtemoc, where it separates the ostensibly dangerous Colonia Doctores from the fashionable Colonia Roma. Why would the bad guys stay in Doctores when the wealth is in Roma?


The area you mention is just one of those I had in mind. On the same side of Avenida Cuauhtémoc (as Doctores) is Colonia Buenos Aires ... which is considered even more dangerous at times than Colonia Doctores. The personality of many areas (Colonias) in the D.F. changes as the clock ticks forward during the day. While it may be alright to wander about during daylight hours, streets can become somewhat deserted at night as the various urchins seem to reawaken.




Anonimo said:


> Danger is dependent on many variables and it's hard to predict. It's complex and simple answers are elusive.


Yes.


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