# Thinking about moving entire family to Spain....



## jackylee (Jan 27, 2015)

Hello to all.

My wife and I have been considering moving abroad for a few years to experience life in another country and another culture and Spain is, so far, on the top of our list. We have 3 children that will be coming along with us. I will be continuing my home based business from abroad and will not need to work overseas.

I've been doing a lot of research, but I still have so many questions. I am hoping that there are some expats on here from the United States who have lived in Spain long enough to give me some pointers and help ease our concerns about making the "jump". And you do not need to be from the U.S. to respond. I welcome everyone's input.

The things we are concerned about are:
*1. money.* will the money I make really stretch even further in Spain like they say it does?
*2. safety.* with the struggling economy in Spain, are people getting desperate enough that crime is increasing? I noticed a lot of burglar bars in the pictures on the home rentals.
also, are the rental rates normally negotiable so I can get an even better deal than published?
*3. schools.* I've read not so good things about the education system. I'm thinking home-schooling all the way.....any thoughts?
*4. insurance.* i'm thinking, from my readings, that we will be covered by the government insurance once we declare residency and pay the taxes. is that how it works? is the medical coverage and medical care pretty good or do you hold your breath and close your eyes when you go in? 
*5. taxes.* i'm probably going to have to spend some money for professional help in this matter, but maybe someone here is in my same situation and have gone through this. I have a home based business with clients in US. I "think" I will end up paying taxes only in 1 country (probably country of residence Spain) and it will be based on their tax scale after deductions. am I close to being right?
*6. money transfer. * I will be paid in US money deposited into a US bank. I will transfer the money to a Spanish account to spend it there. how much do they take out to make that transfer into overseas bank? 

Please feel free to chime in on any topic concerning living abroad in Spain. This is an adventure that I feel will teach me and my family quite a bit. My wife and I are very excited about it and hope to make many friends while there.

Thank you in advance for any responses.

-Jacky


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

Hi, and welcome :welcome: to the forum from a fellow American!

You have lots of questions, but first things first: have you got your family's visa situation sorted out? Unless you or your wife hold an EU passport you have an enormous hurdle to overcome in this respect. Basically you'd need to procure a job contract here or invest massive amounts of money to get a visa. Even with an EU passport there are income and health insurance requirements you'd have to fulfill in order for you to be granted residency. If you look at the stickies above there are posts that give more information.

Let me try to give some quick answers to your questions.

1.Money: It's hard to generalize, but I'd say ultities, gas (for the car), and clothes are more expensive here, food is about the same, and going out is cheaper. Rent would depend totally on the area.
2.safety: It is MUCH safer here than in the States. 
3.schools: Homeschooling is illegal in Spain. Public schools are good, but depending on the age of your kids they might be too old to make a successful transition.
4. insurance: You'd need to get private insurance (much cheaper here than in the States) unless you are self-employed and pay the self-employment fee. Health care is good.
5. taxes: Yep, you'd need help here. I work in Spain so I have no clue how it works with a foreign income.
6. money transfer: I've never done this but others on the forum have and they say that it can be done quite cheaply.

I have to reiterate the importance of working out your visa situation because without having that taken care of there's no point in moving forward with anything else. 

Hope that helps!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jackylee said:


> Hello to all.
> 
> My wife and I have been considering moving abroad for a few years to experience life in another country and another culture and Spain is, so far, on the top of our list. We have 3 children that will be coming along with us. I will be continuing my home based business from abroad and will not need to work overseas.
> 
> ...


:welcome:

OK to address your questions in order
1. Certainly in some parts of Spain it costs less to live well than in other parts of Europe - & I would guess that it costs less to live well than in some parts of the US - it's one of those 'piece of string' questions. Better to say roughly how much you will have a month, & whereabouts you want to live & we might be able to give you some idea

2. The bars - _rejas - _are pretty standard in many parts of Spain regardless of the crime stats. But yes, some crimes especially burglaries are on the increase. Rents are sometimes negotiable - it never hurts to ask

3. Home schooling isn't exactly legal, so you wouldn't find much in the way of a support system - take a look at the section on Education in our FAQ sticky (link at the end of this post). The state education system is actually good on the whole, but it can't be denied that it's suffering somewhat because of the financial crisis. How old are your children? 

4. Yes if you're registered as self-employed you would be covered for healthcare, as would your family.

5. Regardless of where you earn your money, if you are living here then you will have to declare (& pay tax on ) your worldwide income & also do a declaration of your worldwide assets. If there is a tax agreement between the two countries, you wouldn't pay twice - if not, then you would.

6. There are lots of companies for transferring money at little cost - you will get as many recommendations as there are companies


You haven't mentioned a number 7, though. The all-important visa situation. What visa will you be applying for? Until that is sorted out, numbers 1 to 6 are a little moot.

here's the link to our FAQs sticky thread where you'll find lots of useful info about education, renting, visas etc http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...-living-spain/2725-faqs-lots-useful-info.html


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## jackylee (Jan 27, 2015)

thanks, kalohi and xabiachica for the rundown. I'll check out the links.

I'm looking at permanent residency visa since I will be there for more than 183 days. I believe that I will have to show that I can support my family while in the country. I'm not sure on the exact dollar amount requirements yet, but i'm looking into it. I do not plan to apply for any work there at all so hopefully, they don't think that i'm a threat to their struggling economy, but rather, a boost for it. 

my children will be 3, 5 and 9 by the time I travel there. I read somewhere that we can homeschool while abroad in Spain. The Spanish government will not allow it, even for expats? That might affect our decision. I will definitely have to research more on this. I like what I've read about the school system from a social standpoint, that they will have the same schoolmates for years to come and how that practically eliminates bullying. I don't like what I've read about how other countries view Spain's education system as 2nd rate and sometimes do not even transfer the credits.

Did anyone have children that they sent to Spanish schools and how was the experience?


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

jackylee said:


> thanks, kalohi and xabiachica for the rundown. I'll check out the links.
> 
> I'm looking at permanent residency visa since I will be there for more than 183 days. I believe that I will have to show that I can support my family while in the country. I'm not sure on the exact dollar amount requirements yet, but i'm looking into it. I do not plan to apply for any work there at all so hopefully, they don't think that i'm a threat to their struggling economy, but rather, a boost for it.
> 
> ...



Not sure about the 183 days - I thought it was 90 days but then maybe it's different for non-europeans.

Regarding schooling; It's totally transferable and, in my opinion, as good as anywhere else. Yes, it's different in that I think it's more vocational than academic, but that may be a good thing in the current climate.

My three children have all done well and now are completely fluent in 3 languages (well, 2 plus Valencian).

Best of luck.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

jackylee said:


> thanks, kalohi and xabiachica for the rundown. I'll check out the links.
> 
> I'm looking at permanent residency visa since I will be there for more than 183 days. I believe that I will have to show that I can support my family while in the country. I'm not sure on the exact dollar amount requirements yet, but i'm looking into it. I do not plan to apply for any work there at all so hopefully, they don't think that i'm a threat to their struggling economy, but rather, a boost for it.
> 
> ...


My daughter is Spanish and has gone right through Spanish state education and is now at uni. It's not a perfect system, it certainly has its flaws, but what education system doesn't. I suggest that to start off you read the threads that xabiachica recommended and then come back with more specific questions.
I'm not sure about the visa thing, but it is difficult for Americans to come here to live, so as the others have said, your first port of call should be researching the that


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Pesky Wesky said:


> My daughter is Spanish and has gone right through Spanish state education and is now at uni. It's not a perfect system, it certainly has its flaws, but what education system doesn't. I suggest that to start off you read the threads that xabiachica recommended and then come back with more specific questions.
> I'm not sure about the visa thing, but it is difficult for Americans to come here to live, so as the others have said, your first port of call should be researching the that


I don't think this is off-topic - what flaws have you noticed in the Spanish education system?

My eldest is now at uni as well but as for the other two (twins) - who knows what they'll end up doing.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jackylee said:


> thanks, kalohi and xabiachica for the rundown. I'll check out the links.
> 
> I'm looking at permanent residency visa since I will be there for more than 183 days. I believe that I will have to show that I can support my family while in the country. I'm not sure on the exact dollar amount requirements yet, but i'm looking into it. I do not plan to apply for any work there at all so hopefully, they don't think that i'm a threat to their struggling economy, but rather, a boost for it.
> 
> ...


as an EU citizen you would have to show that you can support your family - as a non-EU citizen it is way more complicated than that



the so-called 'Golden Visa' is the easiest to acquire - but that needs a property purchase of 500,000 € & even that is only for a year & then renewable & you aren't allowed to work 

or you can start a business - half a million required again - but at least you're allowed to work

beyond that, unless you can secure a contracted job & the company can get a work visa for you, there are no visas which allow you to live & work in Spain

check out the Spanish Consulate websites or this link http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp.../2725-faqs-lots-useful-info-2.html#post667630


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

snikpoh said:


> Not sure about the 183 days - I thought it was 90 days but then maybe it's different for non-europeans.
> 
> Regarding schooling; It's totally transferable and, in my opinion, as good as anywhere else. Yes, it's different in that I think it's more vocational than academic, but that may be a good thing in the current climate.
> 
> ...


you're right it's 90 days

without a resident visa a non-EU citizen is allowed 90 days in the Schengen zone in every 180

so if they stay 90 days, they must leave for 90 days before re-entering


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## jackylee (Jan 27, 2015)

snikpoh said:


> Not sure about the 183 days - I thought it was 90 days but then maybe it's different for non-europeans.
> 
> Regarding schooling; It's totally transferable and, in my opinion, as good as anywhere else. Yes, it's different in that I think it's more vocational than academic, but that may be a good thing in the current climate.
> 
> ...


thanks, snikpoh.
yes you are right, it is 90 days. the 183 days was for tax purposes and which country to file to. I got the 2 numbers mixed up for a moment. I have not applied for the visa yet as it will be 15 months from now before we hop on that one-way cruise to Barcelona. i'm starting to gather that this residency visa is harder to get than I anticipated. maybe we should just hop around all of Europe for less than 90 days each country. then we can home school like we want to. pay US taxes like normal. and just buy international health care. actually, no, I can't do that either. all of Europe counts the same when it comes to that 90 days, doesn't it? what's it called, Schengen visa for all EU countries.

I guess I need to contact the Spanish Embassy soon......


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

jackylee said:


> thanks, snikpoh.
> yes you are right, it is 90 days. the 183 days was for tax purposes and which country to file to. I got the 2 numbers mixed up for a moment. I have not applied for the visa yet as it will be 15 months from now before we hop on that one-way cruise to Barcelona. i'm starting to gather that this residency visa is harder to get than I anticipated. maybe we should just hop around all of Europe for less than 90 days each country. then we can home school like we want to. pay US taxes like normal. and just buy international health care. actually, no, I can't do that either. all of Europe counts the same when it comes to that 90 days, doesn't it? what's it called, Schengen visa for all EU countries.
> 
> I guess I need to contact the Spanish Embassy soon......


Yes, that's right. A maximum of 90 days in the Schengen area, then 90 days out. 

Your first port of call should be your nearest Spanish consulate to see if there's a visa for you.


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## Brangus (May 1, 2010)

Contact your Spanish consulate about it, but I suspect you won't be able to get a visa. Have you considered the Netherlands? I have friends who moved there under the Dutch-American Friendship Treaty, which encourages U.S. entrepreneurs to set up shop in Holland.




jackylee said:


> My wife and I have been considering moving abroad for a few years to experience life in another country and another culture and Spain is, so far, on the top of our list. We have 3 children that will be coming along with us. I will be continuing my home based business from abroad and will not need to work overseas.


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## alborino (Dec 13, 2014)

Jackylee sad to see your dream getting rather shattered but from what I read from your posts there are many places on this planet that would meet your needs. Is there any specific reason you looked at Spain? 

If a reason is that you speak Spanish have you considered the Caribbean or South America?

You also mentioned hopping from country to country. Not sure I'd want to do that if for no other reason than the kids lose the language learning opportunity and cannot build friendships. But there are countries outside schengen that make that possible.

But don't give up. There is somewhere out there that would welcome your family and tax contribution.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jackylee said:


> thanks, snikpoh.
> yes you are right, it is 90 days. the 183 days was for tax purposes and which country to file to. I got the 2 numbers mixed up for a moment. I have not applied for the visa yet as it will be 15 months from now before we hop on that one-way cruise to Barcelona. i'm starting to gather that this residency visa is harder to get than I anticipated. maybe we should just hop around all of Europe for less than 90 days each country. then we can home school like we want to. pay US taxes like normal. and just buy international health care. actually, no, I can't do that either. all of Europe counts the same when it comes to that 90 days, doesn't it? what's it called, Schengen visa for all EU countries.
> 
> I guess I need to contact the Spanish Embassy soon......


yes, you've got it 

pretty much all of Europe is in the Schengen zone, so you can't just hop around Europe, either

if it makes you feel any better - an EU citizen can't go to the USA to do what you want to do in Europe, either

& that's why - there is no reciprocal agreement as far as the USA & Europe is concerned, as far as freedom of residency is concerned


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

jackylee said:


> thanks, snikpoh.
> yes you are right, it is 90 days. the 183 days was for tax purposes and *which country to file to*. I got the 2 numbers mixed up for a moment. I have not applied for the visa yet as it will be 15 months from now before we hop on that one-way cruise to Barcelona. i'm starting to gather that this residency visa is harder to get than I anticipated. maybe we should just hop around all of Europe for less than 90 days each country. then we can home school like we want to. pay US taxes like normal. and just buy international health care. actually, no, I can't do that either. all of Europe counts the same when it comes to that 90 days, doesn't it? what's it called, Schengen visa for all EU countries.
> 
> I guess I need to contact the Spanish Embassy soon......


Heh, you'll be filing to the US for the rest of your life. If you move abroad, you just add another tax return to each year. Uncle Sam has got us in their grip unless we do the expensive and complicated process of giving up citizenship.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> yes, you've got it
> 
> pretty much all of Europe is in the Schengen zone, so you can't just hop around Europe, either
> 
> ...


That map is very confusing. The UK is not in the Schengen area and would not be covered by a Schengen visa which is a pity, because they might have less of a language difficulty, there.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> That map is very confusing. The UK is not in the Schengen area and would not be covered by a Schengen visa which is a pity, because they might have less of a language difficulty, there.



I thought it was pretty clear that the UK isn't in Schengen - it's a different colour

iirc they would be able to stay in the UK for 6 months anyway - as long as they didn't work


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> I thought it was pretty clear that the UK isn't in Schengen - it's a different colour
> 
> iirc they would be able to stay in the UK for 6 months anyway - as long as they didn't work


Sorry, have my screen on high contrast so they all look black.


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## jackylee (Jan 27, 2015)

xabiachica said:


> I thought it was pretty clear that the UK isn't in Schengen - it's a different colour
> 
> iirc they would be able to stay in the UK for 6 months anyway - as long as they didn't work


I saw a different map of the EU that DID include the UK and Ireland. 

weblink: europa.eu/about-eu/countries/index_en.htm]EUROPA - Countries

which is supposed to be the official EU website. 

but the UK still uses the pound currency as opposed to the Euro, so hmmmm....I will need to double check that with an official human source.

Thanks for all the feedback everyone.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jackylee said:


> I saw a different map of the EU that DID include the UK and Ireland.
> 
> weblink: europa.eu/about-eu/countries/index_en.htm]EUROPA - Countries
> 
> ...


yes - the UK & Ireland are in the EU

but they did not sign up to the Schengen agreement, so are not part of the Schengen zone


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

jackylee said:


> I saw a different map of the EU that DID include the UK and Ireland.
> 
> weblink: europa.eu/about-eu/countries/index_en.htm]EUROPA - Countries
> 
> ...


We are perhaps getting several groupings mixed up:

The EU is the European Union does include UK
The Euro (€) zone does not include the UK (the Euro-zone is often confused with the EU- they are different)
The UK (plus Northern ireland) does use the GB Pound (£) and not the Euro but Eire (Southern Ireland) uses the Euro (€)


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## jackylee (Jan 27, 2015)

alborino said:


> Jackylee sad to see your dream getting rather shattered but from what I read from your posts there are many places on this planet that would meet your needs. Is there any specific reason you looked at Spain?
> 
> If a reason is that you speak Spanish have you considered the Caribbean or South America?
> 
> ...


thanks, alborino for the confidence boost. I see life from a project management standpoint so I have no problem finding solutions to overcome the hurdles. the only hurdle I might not be able to overcome is the money hurdle.

I actually typed up quite a long response to your post, but since I'm at work right now, I stepped away and the thing timed out. I'm not going to retype everything, but in a nutshell, I've thought about the Caribbean and S. Amer as well. We would still prefer Europe, and even then, only certain portions of Europe. I have 3 little ones that I must ensure the safety of. Once you have children, all your choices are affected. 

I am glad I found this forum. everyone has been great. I am the type to gather as much information I can first before I make any kind of a decision. My wife and I are truly thankful for everyone taking their time to respond.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Brangus said:


> Contact your Spanish consulate about it, but I suspect you won't be able to get a visa. Have you considered the Netherlands? I have friends who moved there under the Dutch-American Friendship Treaty, which encourages U.S. entrepreneurs to set up shop in Holland.


This must be easiest European country for an American to get into then and I'd qualify this as Red Hot Info!!

Also, if Holland can do it, surely Spain could too? Isn't Spain crying out for this kind of investment??


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

jackylee;6282201
I am glad I found this forum. everyone has been great. I am the type to gather as much information I can first before I make any kind of a decision. My wife and I are truly thankful for everyone taking their time to respond.[/QUOTE said:


> And we appreciate this response


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## jackylee (Jan 27, 2015)

xabiachica said:


> yes - the UK & Ireland are in the EU
> 
> but they did not sign up to the Schengen agreement, so are not part of the Schengen zone


oh really?  then that might be how I will be able to move around Europe then. I will look into it further. thanks so much.


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

jackylee said:


> I've thought about the Caribbean and S. Amer as well. We would still prefer Europe, and even then, only certain portions of Europe. I have 3 little ones that I must ensure the safety of. Once you have children, all your choices are affected.


I suspect that Europeans are equally, if not more so, worried about safety of their children when they move to the US. Unless you're planning on living in some really horrendous slum, it shouldn't be a concern. It's a generalization, of course, but you'll probably find it a relief to live in a place where children play unsupervised in public and learn how to navigate their environment without being driven everywhere.

What you're proposing to do is tricky because remote work is something not really anticipated and covered by current laws. The fact that you can make money outside of the local labour market - i.e. not taking jobs away from the natives - isn't really recognized, or relevant. Investment or entrepreneurial visas require that you spend lots of money and create jobs - which clearly doesn't apply in your case.

In a way this is unfortunate, it would be nice if folks who worked online could pick up and move anywhere, then pay taxes and put money into local economies. On the other hand, it would create a strange parallel society within these communities, and probably some economic distortions as well.

All that being said it's not impossible. There are a couple of approaches you could take, for Spain, or elsewhere.

- go to the consulate, explain your situation, and ask nicely - you never know, someone might be having a good day and they'll grant you a visa

- scale your plans down and apply for one year not two or three, so that it looks like a "sabbatical" - once you're there, you can try to renew or extend

- conceal the fact that you're working remotely and come up with another excuse for the trip - say that it's been your lifelong ambition to learn language X in country X, show sufficient savings to support your family for a year, and sign up at a language school (easy to do early in the day if you're working North American hours) - this approach requires untruth and funds up front, plus private health insurance

Other thoughts -

- homeschooling completely defeats the purpose, you'd live in an English bubble; your kids are young enough, throw them in a local school/kindergarten/daycare, it'll be a massive experience for them

- working remotely is great, but be aware that you'll be socially isolated, and if you have meetings, that will take up a lot of your evenings; you need to find ways to go out and integrate with the community and improve your language


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

jackylee said:


> oh really?  then that might be how I will be able to move around Europe then. I will look into it further. thanks so much.


There's something called the Schengen Shuffle. You live <90 days in one or more Schengen countries, then you move to the UK or Ireland or Eastern Europe for >90 days, then you move back to Schengen; repeat the process until you tire of it or someone becomes suspicious. Keep all travel receipts if ever asked. (Note that you are limited to a 6 month "tourist" stay in the UK; not sure about Ireland or other non-Schengen countries.)

I think this is a reasonable plan for a 20-year-old Australian backpacker on a gap year. I think it would be a nightmare for a family with three small(ish) children. You would spend all your time booking travel, looking for places to rent, packing and unpacking, with no sense of permanence (unless of course you had the resources to maintain two households, in two separate countries). I base this on having moved in and out of Germany with only one small(ish) child - and also with full legal residence permits so no sense of insecurity.


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## jackylee (Jan 27, 2015)

Nononymous said:


> I suspect that Europeans are equally, if not more so, worried about safety of their children when they move to the US. Unless you're planning on living in some really horrendous slum, it shouldn't be a concern. It's a generalization, of course, but you'll probably find it a relief to live in a place where children play unsupervised in public and learn how to navigate their environment without being driven everywhere.
> 
> What you're proposing to do is tricky because remote work is something not really anticipated and covered by current laws. The fact that you can make money outside of the local labour market - i.e. not taking jobs away from the natives - isn't really recognized, or relevant. Investment or entrepreneurial visas require that you spend lots of money and create jobs - which clearly doesn't apply in your case.
> 
> ...


thank you for the thoughts and response.

You are right on those last 2 accounts. my work schedule will probably be around 50 hours weekly, but I'm hoping we would get to dine out most nights and at the least, talk to the waitstaff and our neighbors.

I would rather enroll our children in the local schools if permissible and if they are good. There was a couple blogs that I read that did not hold Spain's education system with much high regards, and raised concern of how that might impact them when we do return back to the states. I was thinking to hire supplemental tutors and instructors to teach them various things in addition to the school curriculum. 

I was planning on "asking nicely" when I go to the consulate. But I was planning on full disclosure and basically show them my earnings from my business. if that doesn't work, I move to plan B, which now appears to move us around every 90 days. this moving around will practically make it impossible to do anything other than homeschool. but I do want our children to learn as much about the people and the cultures as possible so they will need some extracurricular activities that will allow them to mingle with people and play with other children.

I don't intend to have every item planned out. I do not want to plan every item out. I just wanted to have an overall plan for the major items. But you bring up a good point. if I have to homeschool for whatever reason, it defeats one of the main reasons for bringing them to Europe.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

snikpoh said:


> I don't think this is off-topic - what flaws have you noticed in the Spanish education system?
> 
> My eldest is now at uni as well but as for the other two (twins) - who knows what they'll end up doing.


Hi snikpoh,
A brief reply because it's not really the thread topic
I think there's too much reliance on rote learning. It has its place, but not every day and every week.
I think there's little creativity. It's still very much open your book and do page 23. That there is no painting in primary, no sand box or water tray in the class room is a crying shame. There's no creative writing, no acting out plays in any subject
The syllabuses are not realistic and so the teachers objectives are to rush through the material, not to make sure that pupils understand.

I can only think your experience is different if you say that school is more vocational than academic. In my experience the children were given few opportunities to gain skills that would stand them in good stead in the work place like making decisions, working together, using initiative...

The biggest let down however has been university, but that is probably this particular university. Badly organised university, badly organised courses, some teachers who have trouble turning up to class...

You'd think after all that that I wasn't happy with the education my daughter received, but all in all she had a good experience. However, I do think she learnt and had good teachers in spite of the education system, not because of it

PS My daughter is studying to be a teacher (!!) Educación infantil bilinguë

And after all that


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

jackylee said:


> You are right on those last 2 accounts. my work schedule will probably be around 50 hours weekly, but I'm hoping we would get to dine out most nights and at the least, talk to the waitstaff and our neighbors.
> 
> I would rather enroll our children in the local schools if permissible and if they are good. There was a couple blogs that I read that did not hold Spain's education system with much high regards, and raised concern of how that might impact them when we do return back to the states. I was thinking to hire supplemental tutors and instructors to teach them various things in addition to the school curriculum.
> 
> ...


Honestly I wouldn't even consider the 90-day shuffle - unless you are quite rich of course. It would be miserable. You'd be working all the time (50 hours seems profoundly uncivilized by the way) and your wife would be home-schooling and looking after kids and you'd spend every spare minute arguing about which place you're going to rent next. Nightmare. You'd be back on the plane home after three months. Do not underestimate the time and energy and expense (fighting to get your damage deposit back, four times a year!) required to find suitable accommodation for a large family, and deal with travel and bureaucracy, not to mention living out of a suitcase. 

If you do have that kind of work flexibility, though, consider a regular 60-90 day stint every year. We've done something similar in Germany. We didn't use schools on shorter visits, but being in academia, we have six-month sabbaticals every four years, our daughter did attend local schools for half the year then. (Friends used to come to Berlin in May and toss their kids into the local school for the final month, near whichever apartment they rented. It worked surprisingly well.) We also found that summer camps were a bargain compared to home, and a great tool for language development - we started with one week away at age 7, then two weeks in subsequent years. If you find an area you like you might be able to arrange the same accommodation - or buy a cheap shack - and you'll establish relationships and friendships. Then it becomes a regular part of your family's life, every year as your children grow up, rather than one longer adventure early on. (Not so easy with teenagers, but still doable.) For many summers Berlin was our version of the cabin on a lake - which we greatly preferred.

With school I think it's important to realize that in the short term, the life experience and language count for a lot more than curriculum. Perhaps we were spoiled by having a bright kid, but whatever she missed she made up very quickly after returning home. And if your kids really are dealing with an immersion experience, they are going to be way too tired to put up with tutors in the evening.


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## jackylee (Jan 27, 2015)

Nononymous said:


> Honestly I wouldn't even consider the 90-day shuffle - unless you are quite rich of course. It would be miserable. You'd be working all the time (50 hours seems profoundly uncivilized by the way) and your wife would be home-schooling and looking after kids and you'd spend every spare minute arguing about which place you're going to rent next. Nightmare. You'd be back on the plane home after three months. Do not underestimate the time and energy and expense (fighting to get your damage deposit back, four times a year!) required to find suitable accommodation for a large family, and deal with travel and bureaucracy, not to mention living out of a suitcase.
> 
> If you do have that kind of work flexibility, though, consider a regular 60-90 day stint every year. We've done something similar in Germany. We didn't use schools on shorter visits, but being in academia, we have six-month sabbaticals every four years, our daughter did attend local schools for half the year then. (Friends used to come to Berlin in May and toss their kids into the local school for the final month, near whichever apartment they rented. It worked surprisingly well.) We also found that summer camps were a bargain compared to home, and a great tool for language development - we started with one week away at age 7, then two weeks in subsequent years. If you find an area you like you might be able to arrange the same accommodation - or buy a cheap shack - and you'll establish relationships and friendships. Then it becomes a regular part of your family's life, every year as your children grow up, rather than one longer adventure early on. (Not so easy with teenagers, but still doable.) For many summers Berlin was our version of the cabin on a lake - which we greatly preferred.
> 
> With school I think it's important to realize that in the short term, the life experience and language count for a lot more than curriculum. Perhaps we were spoiled by having a bright kid, but whatever she missed she made up very quickly after returning home. And if your kids really are dealing with an immersion experience, they are going to be way too tired to put up with tutors in the evening.


again, you bring up many good points. My wife would probably not agree to the shuffle. I have more of a nomadic tendency and sense of adventure than she does. And I can see how tiring it could be, esp for the little ones. so I guess I better put on my biggest smile and my best suit when I walk into that consulate office for a permanent residency visa. or I will have to do this discussion all over again on another country's forum.

and, btw, 50 hours work week is pretty typical here in the states..... maybe that's why we're all so miserable.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Hi Jacky,

I see that number 1 on your list of things to think about was money. Maybe that was just random rather than in order of importance, but I have some input for you on that matter.

When people do what you are thinking - work remotely - and both the workplace and the place where they live is in the EU, in many cases there is a no-double-tax agreement. I am not sure exactly what they call it, but what it means is if I am from the UK but live full-time in Spain while working for a UK registered entity, e.g. a company I or somebody else owns, I will pay tax only once on what I earn. The tax regimes in both countries will know about the income, but only one will tax it. Which one depends on the circumstances.

I've spent the last several years in the Middle East (ME). I paid no tax in the UK and I paid no tax in the ME. UK rules allow UK citizens exemption from UK tax if they both live and earn money outside of the UK, as long as they do so for over a certain amount of time.

While in the ME I worked with a few Americans. All of them had to pay tax in America regardless of the arrangement in the country in which they were living and working. It was capped on approximately the first 70,000 dollars per year they earned.

I'd recommend you check this out because you might find that you would still have to pay some tax in the US even if you were taxed again on the same income in Spain.

I see that some American expats have responded to you so maybe they have some comments on this particular aspect of tax arrangements.

Just one more thing, I've travelled and worked in many US cities and can tell you that Europe is no less safe than much of the US, it's probably safer.


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## jackylee (Jan 27, 2015)

Horlics said:


> Hi Jacky,
> 
> I see that number 1 on your list of things to think about was money. Maybe that was just random rather than in order of importance, but I have some input for you on that matter.
> 
> ...


thanks, Horlics, for that important info.
I believe that Spain and the US have a double taxation agreement whereby I would only have to pay taxes to one country of permanent residence. (whichever country I spend more time in). I would still have to file to the US but would not owe them anything. This is what I have found out so far, but I don't bank on anything I read on the internet. A moderately priced international tax accountant will put all that in order for me later.

and I know better than to claim that the US is safer than any other country. even against terrorism. I don't let my children play outside without an adult watching them. and I don't go anywhere without my best friend in my pocket. (a privilege I will miss dearly once I leave the US)


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

jackylee said:


> I don't let my children play outside without an adult watching them.


This is getting off topic, but whatever. I'll pass on the gun comment. One of the beauties of living in Germany, for us, was the freedom kids had. Gangs of them playing in parks and on the street with no adults in sight (to a sometimes obnoxious degree). Seven- or eight-year-olds riding the subway to school. It's brilliant. I think that children growing up in that environment are more mature and independent. Our daughter loved it. (I actually don't think most parts of the US or Canada are any less safe, it's more the case that parenting culture has gone bat**** crazy. Our daughter started walking to school by herself in second grade, but I suspect a fair number of folks thought we were nuts and secretly wanted to call the cops.)


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Ah good, if there's an agreement on tax you're probably not going to be adversely affected on that front. You are wise in engaging a consultant, I feel it's a must because even a small error when trying to do-it-yourself re tax can result in heavy costs.



jackylee said:


> thanks, Horlics, for that important info.
> I believe that Spain and the US have a double taxation agreement whereby I would only have to pay taxes to one country of permanent residence. (whichever country I spend more time in). I would still have to file to the US but would not owe them anything. This is what I have found out so far, but I don't bank on anything I read on the internet. A moderately priced international tax accountant will put all that in order for me later.
> 
> and I know better than to claim that the US is safer than any other country. even against terrorism. I don't let my children play outside without an adult watching them. and I don't go anywhere without my best friend in my pocket. (a privilege I will miss dearly once I leave the US)


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

I'd be surprised if everybody does! But me too, to keep it on topic.



Nononymous said:


> I'll pass on the gun comment.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

jackylee said:


> Please feel free to chime in on any topic concerning living abroad in Spain. This is an adventure that I feel will teach me and my family quite a bit. My wife and I are very excited about it and hope to make many friends while there.
> 
> Thank you in advance for any responses.
> 
> -Jacky


Keeping the above in mind I'd say that the 90 day shuffle sounds like a nightmare with children. Changing countries on a yearly basis would be enough to unhinge even the most self assured, let alone on a 3 monthly time table with no long lasting relationships and no home base either. 
The Netherlands option sounds worth finding out about and there you are near to a whole host of countries if you want to do more travelling using The Netherlands as a base


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Horlics said:


> I'd be surprised if everybody does! But me too, to keep it on topic.


Me too!


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

jackylee said:


> again, you bring up many good points. My wife would probably not agree to the shuffle. I have more of a nomadic tendency and sense of adventure than she does. And I can see how tiring it could be, esp for the little ones. so I guess I better put on my biggest smile and my best suit when I walk into that consulate office for a permanent residency visa. or I will have to do this discussion all over again on another country's forum.
> 
> and, btw, 50 hours work week is pretty typical here in the states..... *maybe that's why we're all so miserable*.


Yes, yes it is. 

Best of luck with the consulate!


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

jackylee said:


> thanks, Horlics, for that important info.
> I believe that Spain and the US have a double taxation agreement whereby I would only have to pay taxes to one country of permanent residence. (whichever country I spend more time in). * I would still have to file to the US but would not owe them anything. This is what I have found out so far, but I don't bank on anything I read on the internet. A moderately priced international tax accountant will put all that in order for me later.*




Depending on where the income comes from, you might have to. It's a really complicated issue and a good accountant is going to be one of your best friends. While the foreign earned income exception is somewhere around $90,000, I wonder if your income will be considered "foreign." Additionally, you can get hit for taxes on investments. I bought a house last year and, due to having to cash in savings to get the down payment, I got a four-figure tax bill from the US.


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Horlics said:


> I'd be surprised if everybody does! But me too, to keep it on topic.


It's tough for me to. :confused2:


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Keeping the above in mind I'd say that the 90 day shuffle sounds like a nightmare with children. Changing countries on a yearly basis would be enough to unhinge even the most self assured, let alone on a 3 monthly time table with no long lasting relationships and no home base either.
> The Netherlands option sounds worth finding out about and there you are near to a whole host of countries if you want to do more travelling using The Netherlands as a base


I really question what social services or the guardia civil would think about a family that's in town for three months without their kids being at school. I'd be too freaked out about a knock on the door to let them out from 9 am to 5 pm. 

The nomadic lifestyle suggested sounds like legal, financial, and logistical nightmare.


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## jackylee (Jan 27, 2015)

Nononymous said:


> This is getting off topic, but whatever. I'll pass on the gun comment. One of the beauties of living in Germany, for us, was the freedom kids had. Gangs of them playing in parks and on the street with no adults in sight (to a sometimes obnoxious degree). Seven- or eight-year-olds riding the subway to school. It's brilliant. I think that children growing up in that environment are more mature and independent. Our daughter loved it. (I actually don't think most parts of the US or Canada are any less safe, it's more the case that parenting culture has gone bat**** crazy. Our daughter started walking to school by herself in second grade, but I suspect a fair number of folks thought we were nuts and secretly wanted to call the cops.)


*sigh. I walked to school by myself starting around 2nd grade school age. times have changed here. but that is part of the reason I want our children to grow up in a different environment. I want them to be able to play outside or with their friends without the fear that a stranger is lurking nearby waiting for the right moment. There are places in the US where the community is tight-knit enough to offer that kind of peace of mind. I'd just like for it to be abroad at the same time. and I suspect that Spain has that kind of community environment, as do many other countries. But we are basing our choices on many factors.

it's awesome that your daughter grew up so independent. I oftentimes feel like I'm hovering a bit much.


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

jackylee said:


> *sigh. I walked to school by myself starting around 2nd grade school age. times have changed here. but that is part of the reason I want our children to grow up in a different environment. I want them to be able to play outside or with their friends without the fear that a stranger is lurking nearby waiting for the right moment. There are places in the US where the community is tight-knit enough to offer that kind of peace of mind. I'd just like for it to be abroad at the same time. and I suspect that Spain has that kind of community environment, as do many other countries. But we are basing our choices on many factors.
> 
> it's awesome that your daughter grew up so independent. I oftentimes feel like I'm hovering a bit much.


Getting way off topic, I suspect that children are at no greater risk now than in the past, but the perceptions have changed, and it's not easy to behave sanely when everyone around you is nuts. Exhibit A.

I was a bit skeptical of the Dutch idea, but apparently it might work, you can move over for a few years with minimal investment as some sort of self-employed consultant. See Dutch American Friendship | The Treaty. The only thing I'd question is whether working remotely for a US employer and having zero business contact with the local community really meets the spirit of "friendship", so that might need some finessing.


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

elenetxu said:


> I really question what social services or the guardia civil would think about a family that's in town for three months without their kids being at school. I'd be too freaked out about a knock on the door to let them out from 9 am to 5 pm.
> 
> The nomadic lifestyle suggested sounds like legal, financial, and logistical nightmare.


Perhaps not a legal nightmare unless you tried to ping-pong back and forth for years and someone official finally noticed. But certainly a nightmare in every other respect.

I'm sure that "foreign" kids in town for a few weeks either side of the summer vacation would not be an issue, as different countries have different holiday schedules. But three months during the school year on a repeated basis might eventually raise eyebrows.


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## kimuyen (Aug 8, 2013)

Nononymous said:


> ... One of the beauties of living in Germany, for us, was the freedom kids had. Gangs of them playing in parks and on the street with no adults in sight (to a sometimes obnoxious degree)....



I was astounded when I first saw a young girl who was about 7-8 years old walking with her younger brother (probably around 3-4 years old) to school, in a big city like Barcelona. I saw them everyday as I went to my Spanish class. And I have seen many more young middle school children taking the bus home without adult chaperons. 

The story from the article below is not an isolated case in the US. Last year, a father was arrested for letting his 8-year old son walk 1 mile home (to discipline the boy for his bad behavior at school). 

Parents investigated for neglect after letting kids walk home alone - The Washington Post

It is just a sad state for kids growing up in the US. Is it the fear culture? The violence? Whatever it is, kids lose out.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

In Madrid you won't see that many pre-teen Spanish children walking to school on their own, many don't until they are 16.

An exception seems to be the Chinese though. For example the Chinese family who run the shop round the corner from us not only let their 8 year old walk to school, but also she takes her younger sisters with her (one of them can only be 4). In the evening we'll occasionally see the 8 year old on her own in the local supermarket, buying stock for their shop.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

I just read that article Exhibit A. That is a symptom of a sick society. I started school (in UK) at 4¾ and had a little over a mile to walk, alone, along country roads. Nobody thought anything of it, I certainly didn't and I had had a very (if not over-) protected childhood up until then.

Here in this village it is nothing to see kids as young as 6 (maybe younger) out alone at 10pm (when I walk the dogs) going home from Grandma's or a friend's house. I always speak (usually only a "Hola") just to let them know that they have been noticed. acknowledged and hopefully reassured. I would be very doubtful of doing that in the US (maybe even in the UK, which seems to copy the former) for fear of being accused of being a "perv". 

This is in a village, but what it might be like in a city or big town, I don't know. In the nearby town (Pop. 21k) I understand that similar feelings of security exist.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

baldilocks said:


> I just read that article Exhibit A. That is a symptom of a sick society. I started school (in UK) at 4¾ and had a little over a mile to walk, alone, along country roads. Nobody thought anything of it, I certainly didn't and I had had a very (if not over-) protected childhood up until then.
> 
> Here in this village it is nothing to see kids as young as 6 (maybe younger) out alone at 10pm (when I walk the dogs) going home from Grandma's or a friend's house. I always speak (usually only a "Hola") just to let them know that they have been noticed. acknowledged and hopefully reassured. I would be very doubtful of doing that in the US (maybe even in the UK, which seems to copy the former) for fear of being accused of being a "perv".
> 
> This is in a village, but what it might be like in a city or big town, I don't know. In the nearby town (Pop. 21k) I understand that similar feelings of security exist.


I live in a big town and it's just the same here. A friend who has a holiday home here brings her 2 young daughters on holidays and they love it because they can play in the street with the neighbours' children, and they run in and out of each other's houses freely. At first she was nervous and used to stand outside watching them, but the neighbours gently reassured her that there was nothing to worry about. The English children know only a few words of Spanish and the Spanish children only a few words of English, but they play happily together for hours.

I remember being in Valencia a few years ago (Spain's third largest city) and waiting to cross a road when a boy of 9 (Daniel) on his way home from school, alone, came up beside us and started to chat away asking us our names, ages, where were we from, what football team we supported, all kinds of stuff. I was so struck that a child that age would have the confidence and lack of fear to strike up a conversation with strangers.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Lynn R said:


> I live in a big town and it's just the same here. A friend who has a holiday home here brings her 2 young daughters on holidays and they love it because they can play in the street with the neighbours' children, and they run in and out of each other's houses freely. At first she was nervous and used to stand outside watching them, but the neighbours gently reassured her that there was nothing to worry about. The English children know only a few words of Spanish and the Spanish children only a few words of English, but they play happily together for hours.
> 
> I remember being in Valencia a few years ago (Spain's third largest city) and waiting to cross a road when a boy of 9 (Daniel) on his way home from school, alone, came up beside us and started to chat away asking us our names, ages, where were we from, what football team we supported, all kinds of stuff. I was so struck that a child that age would have the confidence and lack of fear to strike up a conversation with strangers.



same here, with a population of 30+ thousand

We've mostly lived within a few minutes walk of the shops & school (or the school bus) , & my children have, from quite a young age popped out for bread, or walked to school alone.......... although not really alone, because there were always lots of other children walking to school unaccompanied as well

In the summer you see groups of children unaccompanied on the beach - the eldest might be a young teen, but they're all looking out for the little ones

I remember being quite shocked when my daughter had some friends for a sleepover when she was 13 - they were going to the cinema which is a few minutes walk from where we live in the port. One of her friends (English) had never been out in the port (or anywhere else) on her own!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> same here, with a population of 30+ thousand
> 
> We've mostly lived within a few minutes walk of the shops & school (or the school bus) , & my children have, from quite a young age popped out for bread, or walked to school alone.......... although not really alone, because there were always lots of other children walking to school unaccompanied as well
> 
> ...


I think it depends on parenting style, and culture probably influences this to a certain extent, but not always.
I live in a similar size town (didn't realise Xàbia was so big) and I think here at least it's down to parenting style. We live 5-10 mins from the closest primary school (depending on how much of a rush you are in the morning). A Spanish neighbour who lives literally over the street drove his daughter to school every day. Not only did we walk to school, but my daughter walked on her own from the age of about 9 (You do have to cross a busy street, on a zebra crossing, but we believe children have to learn how to negotiate every day dangers too). The great majority of parents (and don't forget I live in a very predominantly, but not exclusively Spanish area) did not let their children walk to school on their own although most lived within 15 mins. Having said that some did and as xabia says they are not really on their own because all the other kids and parents are going to the same place.
The summer she was 6 years old I started letting her walk to the comunidad swimming pool (5 mins in the urb)on her own, but she was NOT allowed in the water until I got there, maybe 30 mins later, even if her friends were in the pool (and there was always a lifeguard). Those were the rules I felt comfortable with. An American friend of mine didn't let her daughter go to the same pool on her own until she was about 10 and I don't think she's been to the town on her own yet and she's 13.
As Chopera says, I don't see many children in Madrid walking around on their own, but have seen some and in the barrio near a bar, in a play area yes.


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

xabiachica said:


> same here, with a population of 30+ thousand
> 
> We've mostly lived within a few minutes walk of the shops & school (or the school bus) , & my children have, from quite a young age popped out for bread, or walked to school alone.......... although not really alone, because there were always lots of other children walking to school unaccompanied as well
> 
> ...


And same here (with a population of about 15K, but only 6km from Seville so it's not like we're in some remote village). 

I actually drove my kids to primary school but only because the school is on the complete other side of town, about a 20 minute walk. Certainly all the kids in town who could walk on their own did (and still do). We have a playground directly across the street from my house and my kids were out there playing on their own - surrounded by dozens of other neighborhood kids - by the time they were 4. If I remember correctly they were 12 or 13 when they started taking the bus with their friends into the city to go to the cinema or the shopping mall.


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## jackylee (Jan 27, 2015)

I think that's a wonderful environment for the children. I know mine would love the independence. Thank you all for the posts. They are very encouraging. 

and my wife has affirmed what I already knew she would say - we are not doing a Schengen shuffle. so, it's all up to the consulate. Plan B will be a different country. If we make it there to Spain, I look forward to meeting some of you in person and sharing experiences. I'm sure i'll have plenty more questions and will be using this forum quite a bit.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

jackylee said:


> I think that's a wonderful environment for the children. I know mine would love the independence. Thank you all for the posts. They are very encouraging.
> 
> and my wife has affirmed what I already knew she would say - we are not doing a Schengen shuffle. so, it's all up to the consulate. Plan B will be a different country. If we make it there to Spain, I look forward to meeting some of you in person and sharing experiences. I'm sure i'll have plenty more questions and will be using this forum quite a bit.


Won't the country have to be a non-European one for plan B to work?


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

snikpoh said:


> Won't the country have to be a non-European one for plan B to work?


Not really, you could potentially obtain a residence permit in another EU country. 

The Dutch option - the "friendship treaty" - does appear to offer self-employed consultants with US citizenship the right to settle for a few years, should one wish to live in the Netherlands. 

Germany can be fairly flexible, and on the French forum I've read of Americans being granted a visa to spend a year living in France while working remotely.

So it's not inconceivable.


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## jackylee (Jan 27, 2015)

snikpoh said:


> Won't the country have to be a non-European one for plan B to work?


apparently, the Netherlands, is a little easier to get a visa since we are Americans. What we're probably going to do is make a list, in order of preference, of which country to make residence in. and then prepare everything for our visa application, and start with #1 on the list and work our way down. (which might start to get costly).


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## grammymissy (Jun 21, 2009)

Have you thought about Portugal? Right next door to Spain . We are Americans in the process right now, retiring to Portugal. From what we have seen, portugal is American friendly. Would like to note that as Americans beware of advice given online and not directly from Embassy's. We.have found there is lots of advice that is actually geared to UK and EU. Citizens, not non EU such as Americans. Good Luck with your search!


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## jackylee (Jan 27, 2015)

grammymissy said:


> Have you thought about Portugal? Right next door to Spain . We are Americans in the process right now, retiring to Portugal. From what we have seen, portugal is American friendly. Would like to note that as Americans beware of advice given online and not directly from Embassy's. We.have found there is lots of advice that is actually geared to UK and EU. Citizens, not non EU such as Americans. Good Luck with your search!


thank you. I have already learned to discern between the two. Portugal is beautiful as well. we will have to look at our top 3 choices to live out there and do our research.


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

Don't give up on the 2-3 month stay once per year option. It has its inconveniences - what to do with your house/apartment in the US being high on that list - but in many ways it's a better long-term plan for exposing children to another language and culture. You could try a different location each time, or you could find a second home that you always return to. We took the latter approach with Berlin, and have no regrets.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

grammymissy said:


> Have you thought about Portugal? Right next door to Spain . We are Americans in the process right now, retiring to Portugal. From what we have seen, portugal is American friendly. Would like to note that as Americans beware of advice given online and not directly from Embassy's. We.have found there is lots of advice that is actually geared to UK and EU. Citizens, not non EU such as Americans. Good Luck with your search!


it isn't so very difficult to secure a retirement visa in Spain

but that wouldn't work for the OP since you can't work on a retirement visa


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## grammymissy (Jun 21, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> it isn't so very difficult to secure a retirement visa in Spain but that wouldn't work for the OP since you can't work on a retirement visa


 I agree, from our understanding a retirement VISA to Spain is a possibility, my comment was just that Portugal is another option for EU residency, since Portugal does offer Americans VISA's, for various reasons including work. 😃. We have, as Americans, and non EU, found that our options are limited in EU countries, and we found the UK to not be an option for retirement. Of course it cuts both ways, we have been told by UK and EU residents that they find options of moving to the USA to also be limited. 😃


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## Trvlngyrl (Feb 25, 2015)

What about a non-lucrative visa?


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Trvlngyrl said:


> What about a non-lucrative visa?


You need to invest over 500000€ in Spain and even then the visa only lasts for 12 months (ISTR).


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Trvlngyrl said:


> What about a non-lucrative visa?


:welcome:

'non-lucrative' means you can't work

there is the so-called 'Golden Visa' though as snikpoh says


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

snikpoh said:


> You need to invest over 500000&#128; in Spain and even then the visa only lasts for 12 months (ISTR).



I'm 90% certain you can't work with that one either.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

elenetxu said:


> I'm 90% certain you can't work with that one either.


there are two - one is the purchase of property with a value of 500,000€ or more - no work visa with that one

the other is a business investment of 500,000€ or more - with that you can work

both give one year renewable residency (not automatic)- istr that after the first renewal you get 2 years - not sure

once you've been here 5 years you can apply for permanent residency


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> there are two - one is the purchase of property with a value of 500,000&#128; or more - no work visa with that one
> 
> the other is a business investment of 500,000&#128; or more - with that you can work
> 
> ...


I stand corrected. Thanks!


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