# Where is Greece's economy going and what does it mean to expats?



## xfiles

Hi all,

First of all: Thank you for a perfect newfound forum! I just found it while sitting here surfing, searching and considering my expat to Greece. Have been reading a lot, but I also want to ask questions and hopefully getting some advice from more experienced people in here:

Yesterday, it was clear that Greece got its huge credit from the EU; but doesn't that mean that Greece will forever be in debt to the EU? How can Greece ever hope to pay back an amount of almost 1.5 billion Euros? How shall they create that money while at the same time spend money on their own country (roads/infrastructure, welfare, etc.) Where are the big cash income sources for Greece to pay this off?

I understand from the news that big measures are being made to fight widespread corruption. But for ordinary people in Greece: Wages must go down, pensions must go down, many will have their buying power reduced by 50%. VAT is up 4 %, and pension age is now up to 67, leaving a large portion of people between 53-66 in (desperate) seek of jobs they never thought they'd need?

In these times: 

What will it do to prices in general (cost of living)?

What will it do to housing prices (many lose their houses; not able to pay the mortgage; houses overtaken by their banks)?

For expat wannabies: Will there be more houses available?

At lower prices?

Or an exploding rental market?

With (much) lower rental prices?

Will expat welcoming be a blooming business in the near future, instead of tourism? (other countries also have a financial crisis; people not being able to go for their ordinary 2 weeks in Greece)

Correct me if I am seeing this in the wrong light, but I cannot help thinking that, for expat wannabies (I am one, yes), this will mean lower house rentals, a bit higher food prices (VAT), and that expats (with stable income/buying power) moving to Greece as their preferred country of retirement must be seen as even more welcoming in Greece than ever?

Please point out where I'm wrong. It is just that the last days' events have made me think ever harder about relocating myself and my pension to Greece (A country I have visited numerous times, and love very much).


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## rainman

Hello again xfiles.

1.5 billion euros? Noo,that is just as much as an average corrupted member of Parliament steals every year from Greece. 

The public debt is HUGE, 400 billion euros which corresponds to 40.000 euros for each one of the 10.000.000 Greeks (including babies, 90 years olds, etc), when a lifetime mortgage to buy a house is around 200.000 euros and an average annual gross income is around 20.000 euros BC (before crisis)
The new loans from IMF and EU will be 80 billion euros for the next 2 years.
Personally I can't see how we can ever recover from this situation,Greeks will starve to pay off the loan interests until the final collapse and official bankruptcy,bail out from the EU, leave the euro currency and return to drachmas, Greece will be a happy poor country for tourists to visit.:clap2:

As you said, where are the income sources?
Greece doesn't produce anything, its greatest strengths are merchant shipping and tourism. Agriculture is already killed, farmers sell their crops below the cost of production or don't even bother to collect from the fields, people buy meat and grocery imported from other countries because it is cheaper, they prefer to go to the supermarket and buy foreign brands instead of supporting local products and fellows,people do not produce money, they just loan to buy imported stuff.

Regarding the mortgages, it is really frightening just to think of the consequences.
People had calculated the mortgage according to their salary before the crisis, now salaries will be diminished but the monthly instalments will not. Every day houses used to be sold in (parodies of)auctions that were won by the same few corrupted people, this is going to get worse, rich will get richer and poor will get poorer.

Houses available?
As I already mentioned in the other thread, houses in islands intended for tourists are empty many years now. With the salaries being reduced, I can predict that families renting will want to move to cheaper houses, that nobody will be able to rent, so the tenants will have to reduce the price in order to get something in their pocket.It's all a matter of demand and supply after all.I was watching the news the other day and they were saying the same thing already happens in a very expensive shopping area of Athens (Kolonaki): stores in that area that used to be rent for very high prices like 15.000 euros per month (that is 50 times my 300 euro rent and 15 times an average salary) were abandoned by the leaseholders due to the unprofitable trade. Not being able to find new leaseholders, many stores in the same street are nowadays empty even if the prices have gone 20-50% off by the owners.

So where will all this lead to? Maybe their goal is to reduce the salaries, the rents, the real estate prices and become as low as in the rest of the Balkans so that foreign funds are invested in Greece.But this was already done by factory owners that relocated to Albania,Bulgaria etc in order to find cheaper workers and it is against the whole EU goal which was the convergence of the cost and standard of living.But will other product prices follow? (coca cola,gas,electricity, **** shoes etc) I seriously doubt about that. There will be a wave of young people with high education that can't even find a job and will expat abroad,unemployment rate for young people under 25 will exceed 50% rate by far.


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## MaidenScotland

Hello and welcome to the forum X files.
I am not in Greece so not able to comment..but I understand you wanting to move there as I have holidayed in Greece and her beautiful islands many times.

Maiden


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## wka

Here's my take on it: everyone has a different situation and everyone will be affected differently. Some expats will benefit, others will be hurt.

My situation is a very mixed bag. I'm an American expat in Greece, married to a Greek citizen who works in the public sector. He just lost two months' salary because of the austerity measures, so that was a big hit to our budget. 

Since I'm American and I work for an American employer and am paid in dollars, my dollars have and should continue to improve in worth. The amount of money I make in US dollars used to be worth very little here in comparison with what I could buy for the same money in the US. That should get a little better now. 

Because we're not sure what will happen with the euro, we're saving my dollars and spending his euros. It seems most likely that the value of my dollars will go up, so we'd like to hold onto them until that happens.

It really is going to depend on everyone's individual situation. To be honest, one of our options is to move to the US for few years and work there until things settle down in Greece. It wouldn't be my first choice, as I really don't want to leave Greece, even temporarily, but it may be necessary if the value of our money here in Greece is not good enough to give us the kind of lifestyle that we want. 

Many expats (like myself) WORK and are not retirees (and at this rate, may never get to retire!) so I think our situation will be very different than the situation of a foreigner who retires to Greece with a lot of money. 

I just hope it doesn't lead to a situation where the only people who can afford to live in Greece are foreigners.


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## xfiles

Thanks for the welcome, and thanks again for your insight, rainman.

MS, I am retired with a stable, lifetime pension. After I have settled in Greece, my girlfriend will join when she retires.

Rainman, the future looks bleak, indeed, but as for me, I see it possible now to make the move...

Only concerns is: With so many unemployed, especially young ones, what (if any) will happen to the criminal rate in the future?


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## scoobie

Xfiles, I personally to not think the crime rate will change much in Greece, what they have that say Britain no longer has is a family support system. Their families in general are large and supportive of each other. Including cousins and 2nd cousins etc, in countries like the Uk families are alot more seperated and independant of each other, in other words "broken". Also they have a better support system in their own communites in Greece.
I think it will be hard for a good few years now and will effect everyone foreign and Greek, for us we notice the cost increases and also the terrible exchange rate from the pound to the euro. 
My concern for Greece this summer is that tourists will stay away and this is bad for everyone, the press has alot to do with this, they constantly show the fighting during protest in Athens which in truth is only a small number of people. I also feel terrible for how the Greeks have been made to look in the media. In my mind they are not alone with corruption it happens everywhere but at the moment everyone just keeps focusing on Greece. I am sure when a new story comes up for another country they will forget about Greece . Just look how they managed overnight to forget about Haiti.


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## scoobie

scoobie said:


> Xfiles, IMy concern for Greece this summer is that tourists will stay away and this is bad for everyone, the press has alot to do with this, they constantly show the fighting during protest in Athens which in truth is only a small number of people. I also feel terrible for how the Greeks have been made to look in the media. In my mind they are not alone with corruption it happens everywhere but at the moment everyone just keeps focusing on Greece. I am sure when a new story comes up for another country they will forget about Greece . Just look how they managed overnight to forget about Haiti.


Felt the need to reply to myself here , having been watching the news today and seeing that three people have died in a bank fire, i think this itself will be enough to keep people away from Greece this year. It is really terrible and this is just devastating the country more.


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## xfiles

scoobie said:


> Felt the need to reply to myself here , having been watching the news today and seeing that three people have died in a bank fire, i think this itself will be enough to keep people away from Greece this year. It is really terrible and this is just devastating the country more.


Agree absolutely. But I guess it was to be expected: The ordinary man/woman in the street must now pay for all errors/corruption done by those they voted for and trusted in. It is a great pity and shame that people are killed now... It hurts extra since it is a country (and people/history) I like so much.

But: It will not prevent me from continuing my research for a life in Greece. With the help I have received from *rainman* in here, I think I will continue looking at Crete (north) and Chania will be researched more (airport in town). It is also close to Santorini, where I enjoy mountain walks from Kamari to Perissa, then a cold beer and kalamari, and boat ferry back to Kamari


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## rainman

scoobie said:


> Felt the need to reply to myself here , having been watching the news today and seeing that three people have died in a bank fire, i think this itself will be enough to keep people away from Greece this year. It is really terrible and this is just devastating the country more.


This is really sad.
Two days ago a bunch of people occupied the Acropolis as a protest and the tourists were not allowed to visit the place. Because of a bunch of idiots the European now will think that Athens is in a state of war and it's dangerous to visit, they send away the tourists in a time that Greece needs them more than ever. They should occupy the Parliament or the offices of the goverment, not the symbol of tourism in Greece
As for today's events, for God's shake why are such idiot people allowed to walk in the streets, I read the CNN report and isn't very accurate, protesters burn banks usually,this time some bank emploees didn't go on strike ,some protesters noticed it and were annoyed, they threw molotov cocktails , the bank employees were trapped and died of suffocation (why isn't there a regulation for emergency exits,just like bars? It's a bank damn it, the favourist building of an arsonist, and there is no law for emergency exits? ). Today 15.000 Greeks went to raise their voice but now all the media talks about those idiots that murdered their fellows, their effort was disorted again.

If you recall, something similar had happened last year (Greek riots for Alexis Grigoropoulos )

//and to make thing worse, the office where the files with accusations of corrupted (members of Parliament and enterpeneurs) people with tax evasion is on fire. Hmm they were very lucky to get away with it (it's obvious that not ordinary protesters did that)


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## xenos

rainman said:


> ...some bank emploees didn't go on strike ,some protesters noticed it and were annoyed, they threw molotov cocktails , the bank employees were trapped and died of suffocation (
> 
> They got so annoyed they decided to throw the molotov KNOWING that people were in the bank and KNOWING they had no way out...etsi bravo re malakes


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## xenos

xfiles said:


> Agree absolutely. But I guess it was to be expected: The ordinary man/woman in the street must now pay for all errors/corruption done by those they voted for and trusted in. It is a great pity and shame that people are killed now... It hurts extra since it is a country (and people/history) I like so much.
> 
> But: It will not prevent me from continuing my research for a life in Greece. With the help I have received from *rainman* in here, I think I will continue looking at Crete (north) and Chania will be researched more (airport in town). It is also close to Santorini, where I enjoy mountain walks from Kamari to Perissa, then a cold beer and kalamari, and boat ferry back to Kamari


GUESS IT WAS TO BE EXPECTED??? Good grief man!

The ordinary man/woman on the street is not earning 2,500 Euro per month - its THOSE who have beed faced with cuts, not the 25,000 armed brave people who were threatening everybody on their route.....


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## wka

Everyone has been faced with cuts. My husband (and I can assure you he doesn't make ANYWHERE even close to 2500, that would be a dream come true) just lost 1/7 of his income, because he's a public sector employee. He didn't go on strike but we respect those who did. Be serious. The people most hurt by the new measures are those who don't make very much money to start with. They lost 1/7 of their income (two salaries + epidomata, even with the smaller doro it still adds up to 1/7) and taxes went way up. It's even worse for pensioners, the unemployed, and the young.

Could YOU support yourself (or your family) on €540/month?

People like my husband, who has experience, advanced degrees, is highly ranked in his field, speaks foreign languages, etc etc are the ones getting hurt by this. They are striking because they sincerely believe that this will not fix the problem; because it is too onerous on the lower end of the pay scale and not on the higher end; and because there is no light at the end of the tunnel in terms of when wages will go back up.

You can't be serious that you think this only affects people making 2500€/month. That's offensive to me because of how hard my husband works and how serious the salary cuts he just received are, and how hard it will be for us to make ends meet now. You're living in a dream world if you think this won't affect the ordinary man on the street.


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## Cairokid

I have to say that I am sitting this morning wondering whether we will have to pull out of Greece if things get worse. I'll probably feel cheerier later on but it looks pretty bleak in some ways at present.

It is possible that the country is on the path of self-destruction, although I hope they will pull back.

The biggest problem is the sense of helplessness many people feel. This is not accompanied by any real sense of community spirit - that we are all in this together and must pull together and help each other through it. Instead everyone is focussing on anger at the economic restrictions. It is understandable but I think it does not help address any of the problems and just creates more.

We have a business which involves bring foreigners from all over the world into Greece for one to four weeks. Yesterday two of our clients emailed to ask if Greece would still be safe as they had been told there was a rebellion here.

I can see we will find it much harder to attract business this year. A lot of the goodwill people felt - we had people wanting to come to Greece to spend their money and help the economy - has evaporated. 

At the same time I am having to cope with a typical bureacratic nightmare as we try to change part of our business. Something that would have been done in the UK in less than a month has taken five months so far and the end is not yet in sight. They keep discovering another regulation and piece of paper we need ...

Probably we could smooth things with a bribe but if we do that, we are just joining in the corruption.

The cost of living is pretty high here and wages are generally low. I would not recommend anyone to relocate here unless they have a well-paid job awaiting them.

If you are wealthy retired wages will not affect you, but you should consider how the Greek health system may hold up under the economic pressure. It may be that private health insurance is necessary.


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## marias

*crime in rhodes*

Unfortunately crime in Rhodes has been on the increase and I spoke to a friend there last night and they had chased someone away from their apartment with a rifle as the person was trying to break in while they were there. Greece was always known for not having crime but it has steadily got worse as the problems there get worse. Albanians etc who went there to work in the black economy on building etc are now without work or money and are resorting to stealing instead.


scoobie said:


> Xfiles, I personally to not think the crime rate will change much in Greece, what they have that say Britain no longer has is a family support system. Their families in general are large and supportive of each other. Including cousins and 2nd cousins etc, in countries like the Uk families are alot more seperated and independant of each other, in other words "broken". Also they have a better support system in their own communites in Greece.
> I think it will be hard for a good few years now and will effect everyone foreign and Greek, for us we notice the cost increases and also the terrible exchange rate from the pound to the euro.
> My concern for Greece this summer is that tourists will stay away and this is bad for everyone, the press has alot to do with this, they constantly show the fighting during protest in Athens which in truth is only a small number of people. I also feel terrible for how the Greeks have been made to look in the media. In my mind they are not alone with corruption it happens everywhere but at the moment everyone just keeps focusing on Greece. I am sure when a new story comes up for another country they will forget about Greece . Just look how they managed overnight to forget about Haiti.


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## marias

Unfortunately crime in Rhodes has been on the increase and I spoke to a friend there last night and they had chased someone away from their apartment with a rifle as the person was trying to break in while they were there. Greece was always known for not having crime but it has steadily got worse as the problems there get worse. Albanians etc who went there to work in the black economy on building etc are now without work or money and are resorting to stealing instead.


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## Cairokid

marias said:


> Unfortunately crime in Rhodes has been on the increase and I spoke to a friend there last night and they had chased someone away from their apartment with a rifle as the person was trying to break in while they were there. Greece was always known for not having crime but it has steadily got worse as the problems there get worse. Albanians etc who went there to work in the black economy on building etc are now without work or money and are resorting to stealing instead.


Yes I agree that crime is likely to increase as unemployment increases, which everyone believes will be inevitable. 

A retired policeman once told me that 'even an honest man will steal to feed his family'


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## marias

I agree with you regarding honest people when they get very desperate. The problem is what people are seeing on the news is not helping tourism for Greece at all and they really need as many tourists as possible to help try to keep some things afloat. Since most jobs in the Islands involve tourists in some shape or form they really have to get things back to looking something like normal to get tourists coming again. That is leaving aside the problems with volcanic ash which is already making people think twice about trying to fly this summer. I have loved Greece since the first holiday we had there and the people are amazing we have made some wonderful friends and it is so sad to see how much they have been suffering for the last year already and you know things are just going to get worse for them.


Cairokid said:


> Yes I agree that crime is likely to increase as unemployment increases, which everyone believes will be inevitable.
> 
> A retired policeman once told me that 'even an honest man will steal to feed his family'


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## rainman

xenos said:


> They got so annoyed they decided to throw the molotov KNOWING that people were in the bank and KNOWING they had no way out...etsi bravo re malakes



Firstly, let's not blame all Greeks, it was one masked man that threw the molotov, the Greeks would hang him in public if they found him.
The bank emploees wanted to go on strike but were threatened by the employer that they would lose their jobs if they did so. Later that day, when they asked again to be dismissed because being in the bank at the time of the demonstration was dangerous, the bosses ordered to close the doors. Of course public servants didn't hesitate to go on strike as they can not be fired, but people employed in the private sector risk their jobs. When the bank was set on fire, there were no emergency exits,no sprinklers or automatic systems for extinction of the fire(the bulding reportedly had never been approved by the fire police, yet people were working in it), the personnel was never trained for a case of an emergency (fire,earthquake) and 4 people died of suffocation, 1 of them was pregnant.The perpatrator hasn't been arrested yet.
And here is the result (Warning, shocking picture , click on your own responsibility).So tell me, how many mistakes do you see?

I am telling you, foreigners may love Greece because they see it in summer while having fun, but this is no country to live and work. Every time I search for information about life in other countries I get depressed on how organized they seem ,how employees are respected, how students learn and get jobs , how laws exist and are obeyed, how much states offer to their citizens.

-Do people in your country work after they have got their pension, depriving young peole of job opportunities?
-Do young people in your country work without insurance because employers want to pay less?
-Do young people in your country with 2 university degrees ang foreing languages send more than 100 CVs and don't get any response even for a waiter job?
-Do young people in your country have the "luxury" of 540 euros per month, hardly enough to pay the rent and the bills?
-Do people in your country get a job with a 5.000 monthly salary without any qualifications or any process of interview , just because they are fuc**ng a member of the Parliament?
-Do people in your country pay taxes and when they need a surgery in a public hospital they must either bribe doctors to get priority or pay a private hospital?
-Do members of Parliament in your country have immunity so that they cannot be accused of anything and go to jail,no matter what they do?
-Do university professors in your country give a scholarship to phd student only if the student agrees to share the scholarship with the professor?


I could go on and on, I'm sure that things are not perfect in the EU, I have seen in the news many demonstrations in France from young employees and students the last years, I have seen people in the UK complaining about their taxes and goverment, I have seen in movies immigrants working illegaly in UK and being exported, but I'm sure that some things would shock the European. As a common joke I heard after 2012 was released says, Greece is 100 years behind all developed European countries, so if they are destroyed in 2012, Greece will be destroyed in 2112


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## xenos

rainman said:


> Firstly, let's not blame all Greeks, it was one masked man that threw the molotov, the Greeks would hang him in public if they found him.
> The bank emploees wanted to go on strike but were threatened by the employer that they would lose their jobs if they did so. Later that day, when they asked again to be dismissed because being in the bank at the time of the demonstration was dangerous, the bosses ordered to close the doors. Of course public servants didn't hesitate to go on strike as they can not be fired, but people employed in the private sector risk their jobs. When the bank was set on fire, there were no emergency exits,no sprinklers or automatic systems for extinction of the fire(the bulding reportedly had never been approved by the fire police, yet people were working in it), the personnel was never trained for a case of an emergency (fire,earthquake) and 4 people died of suffocation, 1 of them was pregnant.The perpatrator hasn't been arrested yet.
> And here is the result (Warning, shocking picture , click on your own responsibility).So tell me, how many mistakes do you see?
> 
> 
> And what do you say to the brave people that STOPPED the emergency services from entering the building??? was this just ONE person?? Let me tell you it was several hundred, not one!
> several tens of thousands of people - heavily armed in most cases, screaming at us to close our shop (a 6 table kafeneio just off Syntagma) or they would burn it and injure us???
> 
> One person may have thrown the molotov but I hold every single person that organised and went on the democratically allowed PEACEFUL demonstration responsible for the deaths and the rest of the violence.
> 
> May they all sleep well at night


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## xfiles

Wow!

Is Greece the trigger/starting point for the end of EU (European Utopia)? One currency for many diversified countries, each with different resources etc.? As we all know, there are several countries that could end up in the same situation...

What's happening to the Greek people now is tragic to see for all of us who love the country, people and history.

BUT: 

:focus:

My intention with starting this thread was to discuss what will be the situation for expats in Greece when the Greek start to feel the hard times imposed on their lives: Will rent go down? Will prices go up? Will crime rate (robbery on a dark street etc.) increase? Will there be many houses on the market, at lower rent (Notice Spain with 1 mill. homes empty)?

I understand that expats who need to work will face the same problems as Greeks, but what about retired people (like me) who want to live their golden years in Greece?

*Edit:* Xenos, according to the news in Norway, a few (couple of hundred, they said) hardcore anarchists/communists had infiltrated the demonstrations: They love such opportunities.. For an anarchist Athens today is Heaven. It is in its philosophy.. The vast majority were ordinary people, it was said But let's not make this political: I am just quoting the news without knowing for a fact.


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## xenos

-Do people in your country work after they have got their pension, depriving young peole of job opportunities?......YES they do because the pensions are not suffiecient

-Do young people in your country work without insurance because employers want to pay less?.....OF course they do....most countries are the same

-Do young people in your country with 2 university degrees ang foreing languages send more than 100 CVs and don't get any response even for a waiter job?........ONLY 100 CV's??? 

-Do young people in your country have the "luxury" of 540 euros per month, hardly enough to pay the rent and the bills?.....JSA for a single person is changed annually, and at June 29, 2009 the maximum payable (last reported figures), £50.94 per week for a person aged 16–24 an AWFUL lot less than the luxurious 540 per month

-Do people in your country get a job with a 5.000 monthly salary without any qualifications or any process of interview , just because they are fuc**ng a member of the Parliament?......No we dont employ 400 gardeners at a hospital that doesnt have a garden either...BTW after 15 years here, Greece IS my country

-Do people in your country pay taxes and when they need a surgery in a public hospital they must either bribe doctors to get priority or pay a private hospital?...Thankfully not, we pay our doctors enough money to stop this


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## greekcanuck

xfiles said:


> What will it do to housing prices (many lose their houses; not able to pay the mortgage; houses overtaken by their banks)?
> 
> For expat wannabies: Will there be more houses available?
> 
> At lower prices?
> 
> Or an exploding rental market?
> 
> With (much) lower rental prices?
> 
> Will expat welcoming be a blooming business in the near future, instead of tourism? (other countries also have a financial crisis; people not being able to go for their ordinary 2 weeks in Greece)
> 
> Correct me if I am seeing this in the wrong light, but I cannot help thinking that, for expat wannabies (I am one, yes), this will mean lower house rentals, a bit higher food prices (VAT), and that expats (with stable income/buying power) moving to Greece as their preferred country of retirement must be seen as even more welcoming in Greece than ever?
> 
> Please point out where I'm wrong. It is just that the last days' events have made me think ever harder about relocating myself and my pension to Greece (A country I have visited numerous times, and love very much).



I am sickened by your opportunism. "Wow a whole country is suffering... great! I can move in cheap and live like a king!" You disgust me. It is interesting that Britain's debt to GDP ratio is almost the same as Greece but they can just print pounds. I hope that BP goes bankrupt paying for the oil it is spilling into the U.S. and Mexico and that it ruins the British stock market.


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## greekcanuck

rainman said:


> This is really sad.
> Two days ago a bunch of people occupied the Acropolis as a protest and the tourists were not allowed to visit the place.... They should occupy the Parliament or the offices of the goverment, not the symbol of tourism in Greece



The acropolis is a symbol of democracy and a perfectly appropriate place for protestesting widespread government corruption that is undermining the modern democracy. Only the most uneducated person would see an important Greek icon, a symbol of our proud history as a "symbol of tourism".


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## jojo

greekcanuck said:


> I am sickened by your opportunism. "Wow a whole country is suffering... great! I can move in cheap and live like a king!" You disgust me. It is interesting that Britain's debt to GDP ratio is almost the same as Greece but they can just print pounds. I hope that BP goes bankrupt paying for the oil it is spilling into the U.S. and Mexico and that it ruins the British stock market.



Calm down!! Its just a possible outcome

Jo xxx


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## xfiles

greekcanuck said:


> I am sickened by your opportunism.


I am just wondering about the consequences of what is happening. Both I and my girlfriend are in love with Greece and very concerned about what's going on, and we follow the news each day. Moving to Greece has been in my plans for a few years. I don't see any wrong in asking questions about what the future may hold: Maybe it will be impossible to live there ?.... And I don't see it as opportunistic to investigate and ask for other views on if I will be able to move there in the (hopefully near) future...



greekcanuck said:


> You disgust me.


Sorry. Wasn't my intention.

Other than that, I agree fully with rainman's view of the Acropolis occupation. Many tourists visit Athens in order to see the Acropolis. It is a mighty symbol for tourists.


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## rainman

greekcanuck said:


> The acropolis is a symbol of democracy and a perfectly appropriate place for protestesting widespread government corruption that is undermining the modern democracy. Only the most uneducated person would see an important Greek icon, a symbol of our proud history as a "symbol of tourism".


Hold your horses cowboy, you posted 2 times and insulted 2 people there,
close your eyes and count to 10 before making rude posts.

The symbol of democracy is THE PARLIAMENT, the Parthenon is just a temple to an ancient goddess, that nowadays is the symbol of Greece,the first thing that a tourist wants to visit when he travels in Greece,hence the symbol of tourism.
I'm sure that if an Italian wanted to protest against the goverment he would't occupy the Colosseum or the Tower of Pisa, a French wouldn't occupy the Eiffel tower and a British wouldn't occupy the Big Ben. 
But it was easier for you to occupy the Acropolis that isn't heavily guarded.


This movement was disapproved by the majority of Greeks, except for those who vote for the KKE communist party, I'm pretty sure that educated people in Greece are much more than KKE voters


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## wka

Αctually the Acropolis is guarded. Not "heavily" perhaps, but there are guards there 24/7 and supposedly guard dogs. I wonder what went on there. 

And in fact the Parthenon is now used as a symbol of democracy, even though it is very inappropriate. It was used as a treasury to hold the money collected from the members of the Athenian League, which was an oppressive empire. It was also used as a church, a mosque, living quarters, etc. Its use as a symbol of democracy is by analogy with its use as a symbol of the city of Ancient Athens.

Something can be a symbol of more than one thing at a time. So yes something can be a "symbol of democracy", a "symbol of Athens", a "symbol of Greek tourism", a "symbol of classical Athenian imperial oppression," a "symbol of classical Greek architecture," etc.


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## xenos

The symbol of democracy is THE PARLIAMENT, the Parthenon is just a temple to an ancient goddess, that nowadays is the symbol of Greece,the first thing that a tourist wants to visit when he travels in Greece,hence the symbol of tourism.

While I agree with you about tourism and the Acropolis, it is my democratic right (sorry, hear that SO often recently I felt compelled to use it myself) to point out that Harmodius and Aristogeiton both d. 514 BC, who were lovers in ancient Athens, became known as the Tyrannicides after they killed the Peisistratid tyrant Hipparchus, and were the *preeminent symbol of democracy to ancient Athenians.* 

Ah you Ancients!!!!


----------



## xfiles

:focus:

Please...


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## greekcanuck

*The meaning of love*



xfiles said:


> Both I and my girlfriend are in love with Greece and very concerned about what's going on...QUOTE]
> 
> If you really love Greece then you should lobby your government to return the parthanon marbles to thier rightful home.
> 
> If you really love Greece then you should write to the EU and lobby to have Goldman Sachs held accountable for assisting the conservative government in lying to the Greek people (and the EU) about their finances. Without Goldman Sach's helpful suggestions for rigged currency swaps and other (not officially)fraudulent schemes the former Greek government would not have been able to get into the position it is in now.
> 
> If you really love Greece then as a member of the EU you should write a letter saying that Greece should not be forced to deal with the millions illegal migrants into Europe that it has been forced by the EU to shelter for the past 5 years. (Greece a small country of 10 million was swarmed by the entrance of 2 million illegals in a 3 year period, that a migration equal to 20% of the actual population.) The migrants were on their way to Germany, France and England but current EU law requires that the first country that apprehends them must hold them while thier refugee claims are processed. Many of the migrants were fleeing Iraq becuase of the British/US war. Others are fleeing the Sudan and other wartorn regions of Africa that are in the state they are today because of Northern European colonial baggage. Yet Greeks suffer and must pay for YOUR crimes. How did you expect such a small government to pay for all these people???
> 
> If you don't give anything it isn't real love.


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## xfiles

greekcanuck said:


> If you really love Greece then you should lobby your government to return the parthanon marbles to thier rightful home.


May I kindly inform you that I am Norwegian: We never exploited Greece. I know that there are many Greek artifacts in British and French museums that indeed should be returned to Greece, but none in Norway.



greekcanuck said:


> If you really love Greece then you should write to the EU....


May I kindly inform you that I don't give a sh*t about EU (European Utopia).



greekcanuck said:


> If you really love Greece then as a member of the EU.....


May I kindly inform you that Norway is an independent country in Europe that has not been, and will not be, a member of the EU. Much amongst our will we have been forced into an associative state with EU, but I repeat: we are* not* a member of the EU, and will *never* be either, as numerous polls over several years have shown..

About the last part of your information you kindly enlighten us with (about immigrants, I guess, but I found it hard to understand, let alone make any sense of it): I don't have a clue what you are talking about.

:focus:


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## scoobie

About the last part of your information you kindly enlighten us with (about immigrants, I guess, but I found it hard to understand, let alone make any sense of it): I don't have a clue what you are talking about.

:focus:[/QUOTE]
I think what they were trying to explain was that Greece along with countries like Italy and Spain are the first countries in the EU that immigrants arrive on and Greece ends up with thousands of people they have to pay for whilst it is decided what to do with them. I understand that the EU is now trying to decide how to deal with this problem but as it stands at the moment the country they arrive into is the country who has to pay the price to hold them and house them and feed them. It takes alot of money to do this and the immigrants are not in Greece because that is the country the want to be in but they use it as a route into France or the Uk. I do agree that the countries involved in wars should take a responsibility to help the people from those countries who are leaving because of the wars. 
I have to say i am very glad for the UK elections as the media now has all but forgotten about little old Greece and its all UK this and Uk that. 
Greece has always been and will continue to be a great country to visit and live in and lets hope none of what has been happening will keep the tourists away this year.


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## HookTheBrotherUp

*No bad intentions...*

I do not think the OP's intent was to exploit the situation more than wanting to capitalize on it. There is nothing wrong with that, in my opinion. You and I make the same choices every day when shopping, looking for bargains. One's loss is another's gain.

If my city was in trouble and many people lost their homes, or moved away, I would not want homes and commercial properties to sit empty only to deteriorate and attract the wrong type of people/squatters. I would want people to move in, businesses to open in order to contribute to the local economy. Yes, someone lost those properties, but getting someone in will cause them to spend money in return. It is better for everyone in the end, despite the loss.

It is unfortunate to see this happen in Greece, but I don't think it is the last country to go through this, only the first I'm afraid.


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## minos7

xfiles said:


> Agree absolutely. But I guess it was to be expected: The ordinary man/woman in the street must now pay for all errors/corruption done by those they voted for and trusted in. It is a great pity and shame that people are killed now... It hurts extra since it is a country (and people/history) I like so much.
> 
> But: It will not prevent me from continuing my research for a life in Greece. With the help I have received from *rainman* in here, I think I will continue looking at Crete (north) and Chania will be researched more (airport in town). It is also close to Santorini, where I enjoy mountain walks from Kamari to Perissa, then a cold beer and kalamari, and boat ferry back to Kamari


Hey. Personally I try to be optimistic about the situation in my country but ill present you the facts about how is the situation right now:

1) Currently Greek people haven't really felt the crisis. The real aftermath will be visible in 2-3 years where the quality of life will be significantly lower than now. (its already lower than the average European).

2) Coming here as a pensioner might not be a bad idea, but I absolutely not recommend coming here and looking for work, especially on the public sector, where there is a great reduction in people hired. Because you will get half the money you earn now (or less) and the cost of food, clothing is not much lower.

3) Because all the rising in taxes, despite the recession, prices not only don't get lower but in many cases even get higher, something that might change in the long run. 

4) Also note Greece is not all year as good as it is during summer.

5) Most damage was caused in Greece's economy because of the distrust of the markets. The situation right now is not as bad as the media present it. However none might say how will it be in some years

6) Also you should seriously consider before moving, the health system here, which has many problems. It suffers from corruption(in most cases you have to bribe the doctor, or the personnel to get something done right, im serious here), you might have to wait many months for a simple but important surgery, and some hospitals (even central ones) miss basic medicines, machines and beds.

7) Crete is a great place to live


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## xfiles

Thank you very much, Minos7!



minos7 said:


> 1) Currently Greek people haven't really felt the crisis. The real aftermath will be visible in 2-3 years where the quality of life will be significantly lower than now.


Which will apply for many countries. In Norway too, housing prices are unrealistically high, and a bubble-burst has to come within 2 years, IMHO



minos7 said:


> 2) Coming here as a pensioner might not be a bad idea,


That's how I will come. No work, thank you 



minos7 said:


> 4) Also note Greece is not all year as good as it is during summer.


It is way better than Norway in the winter 



minos7 said:


> 6) Also you should seriously consider before moving, the health system here, which has many problems. It suffers from corruption(in most cases you have to bribe the doctor, or the personnel to get something done right, im serious here), you might have to wait many months for a simple but important surgery, and some hospitals (even central ones) miss basic medicines, machines and beds.


I will have a year-round health insurance in addition to EU health/medical card,



minos7 said:


> 7) Crete is a great place to live


Indeed ! And great people: Vikings of the Med!

Thanks again: It confirms much of my thinking.


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## wka

Just a plug for private health care in Greece. I had surgery in a private hospital in Athens in March and after enduring 28 years of "health care" in the United States, it was a revelation. The quality of care I received (everyone from hospital staff to the surgeon himself) was absolutely stellar. My brief experiences in public hospitals in Athens did not impress me. If you can afford it the private system is fantastic (in MY PERSONAL experience). Get good insurance and you'll be fine


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## xfiles

Thank you, wka. That was exactly my plan: Good insurance, including transportation back to Norw. health care if necessary.


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## wka

I don't know anything about healthcare in Norway but when my parents naively offered to pay to have me brought back to the US to have my surgery done in Boston, I burst out laughing. Doctors in the US suck - and I say that when there are several in my own family including my father. It took the Greek doctors 5 minutes to diagnose the problem I had; when I was in the US, I had been to over 10 different doctors over a period of 3 years and had a severely reduced quality of life because none of them could find out what it was; within 5 minutes I had a diagnosis, within one day I had a surgical consult with the #1 surgeon in the country for that particular procedure, within 1 week I had a date, and now you can't even freaking see the scars, and I have a life again.

My American insurance company flaked out though so I did pay the whole thing in cash. But still, it was worth it.


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## HookTheBrotherUp

*Huh?*



wka said:


> I don't know anything about healthcare in Norway but when my parents naively offered to pay to have me brought back to the US to have my surgery done in Boston, I burst out laughing. Doctors in the US suck - and I say that when there are several in my own family including my father. It took the Greek doctors 5 minutes to diagnose the problem I had; when I was in the US, I had been to over 10 different doctors over a period of 3 years and had a severely reduced quality of life because none of them could find out what it was; within 5 minutes I had a diagnosis, within one day I had a surgical consult with the #1 surgeon in the country for that particular procedure, within 1 week I had a date, and now you can't even freaking see the scars, and I have a life again.
> 
> My American insurance company flaked out though so I did pay the whole thing in cash. But still, it was worth it.


US Doctors suck? All of them? That is a wide brush you use. How many different ailments have you had in Greece that were diagnosed correctly to lend credence to your statement? One? I live in Houston, and we have the largest medical complex in the world, The Texas Medical Center, millions of visitors each year from many countries. I wonder why they don't all go to Greece instead? Better beaches and weather for sure, eh?


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## wka

Quite a few over the course of ten years. My God how I wish I had only been sick once. EVERYTHING I post as I say over and over on this site is MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE.

I'm so happy your personal experience has been wonderful. Allow me to have my own.


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## cmzk77

My kids and I just returned from a 10 day sail to the Cyclades and we also stayed in Athens for a couple of days. I never felt unsafe once and let my teen children freely wander the Plaka. As for riots and strikes, they can happen anywhere. Although my American friends were skeptical of my decision to take my children to Greece this summer, life is about risk and living it on your own terms. Having ventured to Italy a few years back, I can confidently say that there is nowhere on earth I'd rather retire to than Greece, poor or not. I am brand new to this forum and being a widow had absolutely no future plans until I visited the Cyclades. I am now trying to formulate a plan to move once my youngest graduates from high school (5 years!!). Can any of you expats living in Greece share any guidance or wisdom? I need a starting point. Thanks, and it has been a pleasure reading all your posts!


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## MRW

Perhaps you are not reading FT or any financial news. Last week there was a whole page WARNING people NOT to hold much money in Euros with numbers starting with G! That is a Greek Euro. This is because it will be impossible for the Greek ecconomy to even pay the interest on its debts and it will default this year. This will leave them with no alternative but to leave the euro and go back to the Dracma. The problem then is simply that on the day they do this Euro notes will only be valued at the exchange rate given against the Dracma which is presently estimated to be around only 30% of the current value so you will lose 70% purchasing value. Greece is highest on the possible failure list but also Spain is second and Portugal and Italy are there too. 
It appears that politicians, financial institutions, banks and mainly Brussels have completely ignored ecconomists, world bank warnings for a year or more now with their heads in the sand, that the Euro debt in certain weaker countries can NEVER be repaid, not even the interest on it. The greatest problem is that most of those ecconomies debt was property related, ie too much development of holiday, retirement homes, too much infastructure building to try and force growth and attract more buyers. The debt of this borrowing was set against security of the completely OVERestimated value of the finished property which will now never be realised. So having to write off between 30 and 50% of the value, then add the incredible monthly interest on the countries debts The EEC will, sooner or later have absolutely no alternative other than to declare those defaulters 'bankrupt' and OUT of the Euro currency. 
So if you are retired in Greece I would not hold your breath waiting for recovery. After reverting to the Dracma inflation will soar and it will be every man for himself.


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## RamonaMcMahon

What will happen to property prices after going back to the dracma, we are holding off buying till then?

Ramona


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## xfiles

Hi all,
Just back from a long journey. I am still wondering what will happen to the house rental market in the near future. Any ideas? Will rental prices go down? And what would be a "normal" monthly rent?


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## wka

xfiles - this is obviously just ONE anecdote. But my husband and I just rented a house for 10% more than they were charging for the same house 3 months ago (we took over the lease from a friend). So ... at least for us, the economic situation did not help us in terms of rent....


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## verdi1997

xfiles said:


> Hi all,
> Just back from a long journey. I am still wondering what will happen to the house rental market in the near future. Any ideas? Will rental prices go down? And what would be a "normal" monthly rent?


I visited Greece in early July, got caught up in some air transport strikes, left before the fuel strikes.

I just spent the last half hour or so thinking about your question.

First, while the European Central Bank (ECB) does not operate like the US Federal Reserve, Bank of England, and other independent central banks, the Europeans have put in place "money-creating" mechanisms, and I do not expect that Greece will leave the eurozone at any time in the foreseeable future. 

Other than that, the macroeconomic variables, both monetary and real, are many, too many to give you a specific answer without knowing local market conditions and your target market. 

Where exactly do you want to rent, and what are demand/supply conditions there? What level of quality?

My best guess is that a balance of people with both low budgets and high budgets will still want to experience Greece, regardless of events earlier this year. Greece will probably not improve its competitiveness significantly in the short run, and maybe not even in the long run, and I doubt that supply of quality dwellings will increase significantly in the near future, i.e. outpace any positive changes in Greece's relative competitiveness. 

Therefore, as the above anecdotal evidence suggests, prices for quality rentals may even increase, while rental rates may decrease in marginal areas with lesser services and little chance for improvement.

In other words, will you be competing with other people with money who want Greece despite recent events, or with low-budget people who may be scared off, or no longer have the means, and the places they target, or would have targeted, may deteriorate in quality due to lack of investment?

What level of conditions are you willing to accept, do you want center or periphery (even in the tourist or ex-pat sense), how well do you speak Greek?

Another factor in your case is whether you reckon your wealth and revenues in NOK or EUR. If in NOK, you have to try to factor in changes in exchange rates relative to changes in inflation rates.

Overall though, I guess that rental rates on the high end of the quality scale will tend to remain the same or increase, while towards the lower end they will tend to remain the same or decrease in the short run, and probably track inflation in the medium run (in the long run we are all dead).

To put it another way, to what extent do you intend to live with other relatively wealthy retirees or with average locals (how well do you speak Greek)?

Hope this helps.


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## xfiles

verdi1997 said:


> Where exactly do you want to rent, and what are demand/supply conditions there? What level of quality?
> 
> My best guess is that a balance of people with both low budgets and high budgets will still want to experience Greece, regardless of events earlier this year. Greece will probably not improve its competitiveness significantly in the short run, and maybe not even in the long run, and I doubt that supply of quality dwellings will increase significantly in the near future, i.e. outpace any positive changes in Greece's relative competitiveness.


Crete, most likely. I am just back from a week there, and I talked to some locals about renting: Got several offers in the 250-300 Euro/month range, fully furnished. This was in the Agia Apostoli area, 4 kms outside Chania, and close (300-400 m.) from the beaches. 



> In other words, will you be competing with other people with money who want Greece despite recent events, or with low-budget people who may be scared off, or no longer have the means, and the places they target, or would have targeted, may deteriorate in quality due to lack of investment?


Definitely in the low-budget people range, unfortunately 



> What level of conditions are you willing to accept, do you want center or periphery (even in the tourist or ex-pat sense), how well do you speak Greek?


I am not looking for luxury apartments; simply a nice place to stay, with 2 bedrooms so I can house friends/family now and then. Simple cooking facilities. Pool not needed, but would be nice 



> Another factor in your case is whether you reckon your wealth and revenues in NOK or EUR. If in NOK, you have to try to factor in changes in exchange rates relative to changes in inflation rates.


My pension is in NOK. I suppose it is a strong, oil-based currency which will most likely just strengthen itself vs. Greece.



> To put it another way, to what extent do you intend to live with other relatively wealthy retirees or with average locals (how well do you speak Greek)?


Average locals, but not rural. My Greek is virtually non-existent but I intend to learn as well as I am able too (general language understanding is good: Norw., English, German, some Spanish and Italian)



> Hope this helps.


Absolutely! Made me think. Thanks a lot.


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## verdi1997

xfiles said:


> Crete, most likely. I am just back from a week there, and I talked to some locals about renting: Got several offers in the 250-300 Euro/month range, fully furnished. This was in the Agia Apostoli area, 4 kms outside Chania, and close (300-400 m.) from the beaches.
> 
> 
> Definitely in the low-budget people range, unfortunately
> 
> 
> I am not looking for luxury apartments; simply a nice place to stay, with 2 bedrooms so I can house friends/family now and then. Simple cooking facilities. Pool not needed, but would be nice
> 
> 
> My pension is in NOK. I suppose it is a strong, oil-based currency which will most likely just strengthen itself vs. Greece.
> 
> 
> Average locals, but not rural. My Greek is virtually non-existent but I intend to learn as well as I am able too (general language understanding is good: Norw., English, German, some Spanish and Italian)
> 
> 
> Absolutely! Made me think. Thanks a lot.


You're welcome.

It is good that you know what you're budget is and that you do not have unrealistic ambitions to exceed it.

Indeed, chances are that the NOK, an oil-based currency, will at least maintain its value against the EUR and local Greek cost of living. The only risks are inflationary policies in Norway and a steep drop in oil prices to pre-2000 levels, both of which are highly unlikely. 

My experience in about a dozen countries across three continents is that the golden rule applies: treat others as you would have them treat you. If you behave without pretensions and are patient with the pretensions of others, then you will do fine. Of course learning Greek and local expressions will go a long way. 

All the best!


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## tonky

I would be brave and definitely go to Crete.

I live in Heraklion and love it. 

The weather is fantastic, the people great, the food top notch.

I would suggest renting and not buying though


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## xfiles

Indeed,
that's my standing: I want to rent, not buy. IMHO, I think that prices are bound to go down. This is not only applying Greece, but Spain, Portugal, Italy and other EU countries as well. The real downslide will happen in 2012-2013.

I had several offers during one week in Agia Apostoli this Sept. Enough to understand that there is a renters/buyers market. I am not prying on the misfortune of others; I simply see the opportunity to actually go away and live on a Greek island like Crete with my pension money. I didn't think it was possible, but now my eyes are opened and I understand that it IS.


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## tonky

I can find properties at half the rental of English ones and with the cuts coming here in England renting just a room will be exhorbitant when you could rent a villa with pool for the same amount.

Plus the quality of life is so much better.


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## billysrhodes

Hi all, I dont get a lot of time to look on the sight but jut saw this thread.....Well on what was the wonderful island of Rhodes, we are all busy filling in our pools that cost a fortune for a license first place and then build, because of the luxury tax now being levied, plus we are sinking our under 10 metre boats because they are also to be taxed as luxury ( like the over 10 metre ones have already ) as well as trying to knock down or change back to basements those "extra" areas of our house that the developer/estate agent told us and indeed helped us ( at cost only) to build after the property was completed and inspected, as per the original plans.

I tell you its all go ! thank god we are retired and have the time to do all this. We are also struggling to prove that the money used to purchase the property 5 years ago was all legal. Apparently all international drug and gun smugglers use electronic transfers from bank to bank to now move money around the globe !! Still I am told that as the declared value of our " little piece of heaven" was only 180.000 euros and not the actual 345.000 that we paid, we will only have to find and extra 30.000 to take care of the problem.... 

Still it could be worse, we have friends who have to work here and after being told that the hotel / restaurant they applied for jobs in had already reached its limit of "Eka" payments ? so no hand outs over the winter for them then....Funny I thought if you employed staff, what ever the number you paid this so they could survive the winter ?? But then how silly am I, one of the owners is the local mayors brother !! so I must have got it all wrong....

Wow this really sounds bad, why do I live here ? I remember, we are trapped. Greece the longer you have to cope with it would appear to be rotten to the core. What next ? lets think what was popular in the UK in the good old days...I know window tax there are a lot of illegal Albanian builders around to brick them up.......

Must go got to tie the dog in the field as having it running around the garden is now taxable... Still our pension will cover it all, shame its in pounds but we are British and if Greece wants to have us pay off its debt, or to line a few more pockets? well its the least we can do, after all they let us live here dont they.....


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## xfiles

Hmm Billy,

I am not sure how to read your post? Are you saying that a lot of new taxes are installed, and that living just got more expensive? Will that hurt the rental market?


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## billysrhodes

*Beware of Greece...*



xfiles said:


> Hmm Billy,
> 
> I am not sure how to read your post? Are you saying that a lot of new taxes are installed, and that living just got more expensive? Will that hurt the rental market?


Hi, what I am trying to say is I believe that investing in Greece property wise is not a very good idea. In these hard times for our country anything goes to get money in, be it one off tax on older cars or going back 5 plus years to look at your personal finances, I could go on and on but it really changes every week.....

Do come and rent a property here, I am sure that following the terrible summer we have had and the fact there is no work or Eka money for most of the expat's ( lots of who have or are heading back to the UK ) you will get a very good deal on a property, BUT and I feel it needs to be a big but, spend at least a year getting to know the place. DO NOT apply for residents papers because once you have them you are for all intense and purposes Greek for all the bad reasons you can think of..

Right again got to go because I've just had a phone call about the new tax on T.V's bigger than 28" !!!...Must tell you that filling in the pool was a winner though, using Google Earth the government has found out that of the 4000 pools they could see from space in the better end of Athens, only 35 of them had applied for the relevant building licenses and at lets say 10.000 per license that's another 39.650.000 euros of what we owe...


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## xfiles

Billy,
yes, that sounds sensible. My intention is to rent a small place in Crete. A pool nearby would be perfect. In today's market, whether in Spain, Greece, or elsewhere, buying property is out of the question: I believe in a dramatic reduction in prices from today's overpricing in many countries.

Is it possible to rent a place and live there on and off for let's say 6 months without noticing authorities/having to get a resident permit? I am inside the Schengen area, after all.


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## billysrhodes

xfiles said:


> Billy,
> yes, that sounds sensible. My intention is to rent a small place in Crete. A pool nearby would be perfect. In today's market, whether in Spain, Greece, or elsewhere, buying property is out of the question: I believe in a dramatic reduction in prices from today's overpricing in many countries.
> 
> Is it possible to rent a place and live there on and off for let's say 6 months without noticing authorities/having to get a resident permit? I am inside the Schengen area, after all.


Hi again, I really am having a bad time of it this week......Just tried to get the boat out of the water and bury it in the garden ( remember to save on the tax on under 10 metre boats ) and some rotten sod has only gone and stolen the business end of the trailer ! So that's another thing to think about, crime is on the up and up on this island at least...

Right Crete must be the same as here in that you can stay for as long as you like just dont go buying anything major, i.e car - bike etc etc, you will be fine. What you must understand is what ever this country signed up to to join the E.U. does not mean they will do it ! the rules are changed and applied as is seen fit. 

Sorry to sound so negative but I really think people come to these islands for a few weeks and fall in love with them. When they come back they leave their brains in a locker at the airport buy a property off the local sun bed guy or worse still the local bar owner and the problems start...Actually try North Wales, they speak a different language ( well if they dont like you !!) and the place is great it just does not as much sunshine as we get here....


----------



## xfiles

Ha, ha! 

I think you are painting it a bit black, right? On a serious note, as said before, buying is out of the question. I am seriously interested in the rental market and where it will head in the future. Viewpoints on that are very much appreciated!


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## billysrhodes

Not my area really... but again on this island as I type you can get an average 2 bed apartment for around 350 per month...electric is on top of that.. Again though with the new rules on letting to the holiday types now you could find that the villa that used to be let for 650 to 850 per week in the season could be got longer term for the same or less for the month....

Good luck to you though, if you ever venture to Rhodes you will be able to find me begging in front of the harbor gates...


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## mrtutz

I was on Facebook speaking to my sister last night, she is Greek, and I am half Greek. From the picture she painted, everyone over there is suffering at the moment. I was over there for Easter and, although my dad was struggling financially, my sister and her husband were doing ok, and could lend a helping hand.

I have been going to Greece since the early 80's to see my dad, and I remember the flocks of tourists from all over the world who would be sleeping at the old Athens airport waiting for their flights home. The place was rammed. Everyone wanted to go to Greece, drink cheap beer, eat fantastic meals for next to nothing, and enjoy the fantastic beaches.

The difference was in those pre EEC / EU days, the Greeks didn't have massive expectations, my dad felt lucky to have a VW Golf as a company car, he was finance director for a large, American owned advertising firm. Greece was cheap to get to on a package, and cheaper still when you were there.

It's so expensive now, tourists (myself included) would rather spend less, and go somewhere out of the EU where the cost of living is lower. 

I really feel for the poor Greeks, who have tough years ahead of them, but, the debt that the government has accrued has to be paid back. They are tied to the Euro so couldn't devalue it as the UK did. 

Going back to the Drachma will not help matters, as no one will trust anyone or country who doesn't pay their debts.


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## tonky

I was in Crete last month and I did not find things expensive and in fact ate out well and reasonably. Yes they are having a bad time and they are trying their utmost to still offer excellent service and delicious food.

England is suffering too and I am sure people will continue to go to and love Greece for the people, the climate, the hospitality, etc for years to come.

Yes, they have been living in with their heads in the sand, but havent we all ?


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## mrtutz

tonky said:


> I was in Crete last month and I did not find things expensive and in fact ate out well and reasonably. Yes they are having a bad time and they are trying their utmost to still offer excellent service and delicious food.
> 
> England is suffering too and I am sure people will continue to go to and love Greece for the people, the climate, the hospitality, etc for years to come.
> 
> Yes, they have been living in with their heads in the sand, but havent we all ?


No, not really. There's more than a subtle difference when people are earning less than £1,500 quid a month in a very expensive city like Athens, rents are higher, expectations are higher, keeping up with the Jones'etc. What does someone do in that situation? I know, lets reach for the plastic.

The UK differs because it can devalue the pound through QE, which makes all the difference. 

England will not suffer as much, it will suffer, but on a smaller scale


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## billysrhodes

I believe that there is a plan for the Greek recovery, but unfortunately the first idea went wrong as we did not have an earthquake like they did in Haiti ! The next and I personally believe the best is to have the army have another Generals' Coup / Coup d'état as we did in April 1967, then we can get down to becoming a more simple people again. Other than that we wait until the E.U starts to really suck money out of the German economy and then they will apply for the winding-up order on the whole sorry mess called the European Union...

Greece was a great place to live and holiday in before the euro, but like every where else you have a few who have milked it for whats it worth and are now some of the "super rich" in Europe ( I believe we have the greatest number of trillionares in Europe) Plus we have a government that instead of thinking about the fact we have 12.000.000 people and 1.200.000 working for the state, have just invented more jobs for people to enforce the no smoking bane ? Whats that all about ??


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## Taranaki

I wanted to live in Greece for a year or two. I have two pensions, I am self-supporting and I have money to invest in a house. I have medical insurance and I am healthy. However, I was not allowed to stay beyond three months. My 'crime' is that I am a New Zealander, not a EU citizen.

If tourism is such a big deal for Greece, which can't the powers that be think a little more laterally and allow independent people of character to remain in Greece for a longer period? We would fill up some of those empty houses, contribute to the economy and be law-abiding temporary citizens. 

Too late for me though.


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## billysrhodes

Taranaki, now this sounds like a chance for us both my friend......because I would love to live in New Zealand...I am 55 go 6' and weigh about 100 kilos ( well 16stone 4 ) dark hair and no visible distinguishing marks. so if your anywhere near that lets swap identities !!!

Because of course its the same for us coming down to you, in fact I think its almost impossible unless you have 3.000.000 invest with the government and the dosh to support yourself on top of that...Leaves me up a creek without a paddle as I have never had more than 2.000.000 N.Z dollars and my pension of 50.000 p.a. and my other little income of a further 22.000 is just not enough to swing it for us....

But you are right all these countries should be able to apply some sense to the whole thing and except that there are people like you ( and I think me ) who would be, if not an asset certainly not a drain on that countries economy...

Right I recon if we dont match close enough or if not, well we can both afford a bit of surgery, so send some pictures or come a see me next time you visit, if you dont fancy that I am free to come that way next November time ( no olives to pick next year !!) and we will see what two level headed people can work out.....


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## Taranaki

Ha! Wouldn't it be great to swap identities for a year or two... except I'm female and a decade older!

Such a shame that governments don't look beyond the immediate. Very short-sighted.


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## billysrhodes

Ha Ha back at you, there are two of me and we can make Mrs Billysjeep look older if necessary ! But other than that I am out with a friend to day who is a Tunisian and lived here for over 25 years, let me get his take on things for you ( he is a bit more serious than I am !! ) this is after all Greece and I am sure that if you got some sort of a "job" we could sort you out with a work permit like all of the Albanians etc get to stay here and annoy the locals.....So that you sorted now what can we do for me ????


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## Taranaki

Your Albanians sound like the fruitpickers that come here from the Pacific Islands and then sort of 'get lost' forever. As long as they've got relatives here it's quite likely they'll never get picked up. 

I didn't know that people needed so much money to put down roots here. We've had a great influx of South Africans in recent years, and apart from selling their houses in SA, they don't look like millionaires to me.

If someone could guarantee me a minimum of twelve months stay in Greece, I'd be back like a shot. We were told by the Greek Embassy here in NZ that it would be 'no problem' to get a visa extension, but that wasn't the case at all. We went to Crete on the assumption that the information was correct and then had to return to NZ after 3 months, which ended up costing us a lot. We still would love to return though, but would try somewhere else.


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## billysrhodes

You have to remember that we are talking about Greece here, the people who advise you about moving here from other "member" states ( o that's why they call that other thing a member !) say that you can have your cars changed over to Greek plates at no charge as well as motor bikes and when you arrive they charge VAT on the original purchase price of the item in Athens when new ? Funny I am sure that the E.U have a rule about that, which they do but the Greeks have got away with it for years and need the money from that more than ever now..Actually I wish we could get a T.V production company interested in doing a program on the place it would be a eye opener to many I am sure...

But this is just negative rubbish and like the man said there is no such thing as a problem just a solution...We have friends ( well people we know ) who live over the sea ( 10 miles ) in Turkey, which as you know is none E.U and up until last year they used to pop over to Rhodes for a few days every year and then return and get a nice new stamp in their passport, job done see you next year.. I wonder if that could not be a way around it for you ?

Right I will keep thinking for you. I am sure that your South Africans must have secured jobs in N.Z and had the skills you needed at the time. We will come and have a look at you, I have put it off for over 5 years now as I don't want to find out that I should have moved 15 years ago !!!


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## erikrooze

*Living in Greece*

Greece has borrowed a little bit more, 110 Billion Euros, it has the duty to pay this back within the next three (!) years. Austerity measures are being taken, meaning that people will receive less money, pay higher taxes, have less money. Of course, there will be a lot of people suffering. But the reality is different. I have lived here for a number of years, know a lot of Greeks. Greeks are generally not poor people, there is still a lot of money around. Of course, a lot of people will be losing their jobs and life will become more difficult.

Property is still moving hands, prices are coming down (just as well). Don't buy a house at this moment! Building a house has always been cheaper than buying an existing house (I have been a suveyor/builder for a long time), and renting a house could even be a better option.

Greece is not a cheap country to live, there are no Asda's, Tesco's, prices are definitely higher than the UK, Holland and Germany, but what do you get in return? Quality of Life is not only a financial quality.......If you can afford to live here, do it! I came to Greece in 1979, fell in love with it and will never return!

Regards,
Erik


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## Guest

Really interesting question in the original post, too bad it's 7 pages of mostly spam followed afterwards. (I too am unhappy with the debt that my generation will have to repay for the rest of our lifes, but that's not what this thread is about)

I too am a oppertunist, and I don't see anything wrong with that, if many tourist homes in Crete are standing empty then it makes sense to lower prices and then I'll pack my bags from where I am and live there instead.

So I agree with the theory that the original post says, that rent should go down, however that's not always the case in practise, for exampel I've been told in Cyprus that when houses started getting empty the market responded by HIGHER rent! the logic for this was that if less tourist come here they need to make sure to milk those fewer tourists with more, 
luckily I was able to find a landlord who was clever enough to realize that LOWER rent is better than no rent so I got a villa for 280euro a month during winter.

Next I'm having loose eyes at Greece (i.e. I don't require work just a place to stay) but I too am having problem to figure out if this economy crash is good for expats or if it means a angry mob of unemployed ppl will kick open your door and steal your stuff, and more importantly if there really are bargain rents to be had.


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## erikrooze

*Where to live?*



NiklasB said:


> Really interesting question in the original post, too bad it's 7 pages of mostly spam followed afterwards. (I too am unhappy with the debt that my generation will have to repay for the rest of our lifes, but that's not what this thread is about)
> 
> I too am a oppertunist, and I don't see anything wrong with that, if many tourist homes in Crete are standing empty then it makes sense to lower prices and then I'll pack my bags from where I am and live there instead.
> 
> So I agree with the theory that the original post says, that rent should go down, however that's not always the case in practise, for exampel I've been told in Cyprus that when houses started getting empty the market responded by HIGHER rent! the logic for this was that if less tourist come here they need to make sure to milk those fewer tourists with more,
> luckily I was able to find a landlord who was clever enough to realize that LOWER rent is better than no rent so I got a villa for 280euro a month during winter.
> 
> Next I'm having loose eyes at Greece (i.e. I don't require work just a place to stay) but I too am having problem to figure out if this economy crash is good for expats or if it means a angry mob of unemployed ppl will kick open your door and steal your stuff, and more importantly if there really are bargain rents to be had.


Dear Niklas,

Needless to say, one needs to avoid Athens. But on the islands, life can be very pleasant. OK, there is less work and people realise that they will have to live with less, but riots will not take place, certainly not on the smaller islands. Life is as expensive as you make it yourself. OK, Greece is certainly not a cheap country, but what you get in return could well be worth it! I have lived here for ten years and have no reason to leave.......


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