# Should SA crime stats be the deciding factor?



## poortrekker (Dec 29, 2011)

I had read a [very lengthy] thread that is now over a year old but after reading many of the posts I'm still left wondering what a "true" picture is of SA crime. One poster mentioned that it may depend on location and that some pockets of the country are safer than others; this is a sensible observation.

I miss my country terribly, and I understand the enormous challenges it faces, but I'm very, very mindful of the crime factor. I have an American wife and 3-yo daughter and so it's a concern that trumps all, everything.

Much of what I read here leaves me thinking that characterizations of the country's crime may simply be a reflection of the individuals presenting them. I'd venture that the more tolerant, liberal-minded folk would give a fairer assessment of the country's crime than would the old die-hard conservatives...who might as well be describing the first trek into the interior, godless savages and all. (Not to trivialize the crime, mind you; my father was robbed at gunpoint on his rural plot in Parys.)

It really has been a chore reading into all of the many posts I've found--to understand the crime perspective in light of who I think the poster is--just to get a fair picture. A guessing game, mostly, but South Africans--especially white South Africans--seem to envision different presents and futures.

Thinking about it very cautiously. We've traveled to SA on holiday often, and loved it, but I'm uncertain of what I might be bringing my wife & daughter to as a home base.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

poortrekker said:


> I had read a [very lengthy] thread that is now over a year old but after reading many of the posts I'm still left wondering what a "true" picture is of SA crime. One poster mentioned that it may depend on location and that some pockets of the country are safer than others; this is a sensible observation.
> 
> I miss my country terribly, and I understand the enormous challenges it faces, but I'm very, very mindful of the crime factor. I have an American wife and 3-yo daughter and so it's a concern that trumps all, everything.
> 
> ...



Dear Poortrekker,
Crime Statistics | Per Station
will give you SA Police Service Statistics by locality.

Yes, more crime happens in the locations and squatter Camps, but Violent crime Does happen in the suburbs, wherever you are.

You appear to have made your mind up that only die hard conservatives who miss being the baas complain.

there is only one solution.

take your wife and child to SA, one of two things will happen, it will be the best thing you have ever done and you cannot understand what the fuss was about, crime has not affected you at all.

or you can be one of the ones who do experience it and will regret that you ever thought of going back.

there is no guarantee either way.

so please go back.


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## poortrekker (Dec 29, 2011)

Daxk said:


> take your wife and child to SA, one of two things will happen, it will be the best thing you have ever done and you cannot understand what the fuss was about, crime has not affected you at all.


Thanks for the link.

I haven't made up my mind at all; it's just an impression I've formed from wildly conflicting reports that I've been reading on the subject (you'd think there were two different countries--literally). So yes, the impression from this and our visits is that those who complain the loudest about SA crime are those who miss The Old Days the most.

I wasn't looking for a guarantee (we agree there are none), I was looking for a frank opinion by family people of the actual threat one can expect. Does one live under constant lock and key in SA or is there enough freedom that one can appreciate the enormous benefits of SA culture and lifestyle? (We're not wealthy, nor do we plan to be...)

2-week visits and crime stats unfortunately don't tell the whole story.

And what are residents' opinions on SA's political an economic future? I see as much hope as I see Mugabe-esque behaviors. (Again, stats and figures don't reflect the POV of the man on the street).


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

There are basically four types of people in SA and their opinions will reflect which group tey fall into.
1) people who have experienced violent crime themselves or close enough to them to really shake up their thoughts on a future in SA, who can leave SA and have done so or are in process.


2)people who have experienced violent crime themselves or close to them who cannot leave for either work or family reasons and will evince a gung-ho attitude towards crime

3)people who have not experienced Violent crime and cannot understand what the fuss is about.
4) the Criminals.

as to lifestyle,unless you are way out in the sticks or live in a electric perimeter fenced with 24 hour patrolling and entrance security Estate(and even that is no guarantee) you will have a constant locking and unlocking of security gates and and car doors.
your awareness levels of what is happeningg around you, especially at night ,on roads and approaching your home or robots/traffic lights is akin to the awareness a soldier on patrol in Afghanistan has to maintain.
you dont have to, but its what those who have not experienced crime will tell you is "being careful"
those who have know that its not up to you, as you wont even know when you have made a mistake.

as to its future,a golden opportunity was lost.
there is a slow insidious decline.
its so gradual its accepted as the norm.

I'll take you a small bet.
within two years the honeymoon will have worn off and you will be looking at moving on.
a cheap bottle of wine.
Bellingham Johanisberger.
its crappy but I enjoy its sweetness.


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## poortrekker (Dec 29, 2011)

Good answer. I've seen interviews of returned expats who are still very happy years on, but the outlook for SA does seem questionable.

As with everything, it may just be what you make of it.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

poortrekker said:


> As with everything, it may just be what you make of it.


That's exactly the point.
should you be "unlucky" your choice of what to make of it is removed as is what happens next.


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## poortrekker (Dec 29, 2011)

Daxk said:


> That's exactly the point.
> should you be "unlucky" your choice of what to make of it is removed as is what happens next.


I didn't mean with regard to crime, just living and working there and taking the good with the bad.

Violent crime happens everywhere, not just South Africa; only its frequency is a factor.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

poortrekker said:


> I didn't mean with regard to crime, just living and working there and taking the good with the bad.
> 
> Violent crime happens everywhere, not just South Africa; only its frequency is a factor.


Thats valid.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Besides family I just cannot understand why people would willing live in South Africa when there is so much opportunity elsewhere. The past is past and the future is questionable. Is just not a good bet...... Africa need to go through its renaissance - Not for me bob.


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## poortrekker (Dec 29, 2011)

Halo said:


> Besides family I just cannot understand why people would willing live in South Africa when there is so much opportunity elsewhere. The past is past and the future is questionable. Is just not a good bet...... Africa need to go through its renaissance - Not for me bob.


I don't think they're being sentimental when they say that once Africa gets in your soul, it never leaves. At least for me.

I miss the country terribly and every holiday visit reminds me so much of what I miss...the outdoors, the people, the food, the culture. Yes, the past is the past but the future is never guaranteed (even in Australia). I agree that Africa will need its renaissance--and then some--but when I think of the childhood my daughter could have growing up in SA it's difficult to ignore.

I live in the US and it's hardly the "land of opportunity" as it's made out to be. Sure, it's business-friendly and has a big pool of resources, but you have to have money to make money (as you do anywhere)...and a good idea is a good idea no matter where you live. Opportunity doesn't perhaps mean what it used to mean: the web has changed that dynamic. SA is also in dire need of certain skill sets (IT, medicine, engineering, etc) so that's another consideration.

Nothing is set in stone, but it's been an itch that must some day be scratched.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

poortrekker said:


> I don't think they're being sentimental when they say that once Africa gets in your soul, it never leaves. At least for me.
> 
> I miss the country terribly and every holiday visit reminds me so much of what I miss...the outdoors, the people, the food, the culture. Yes, the past is the past but the future is never guaranteed (even in Australia). I agree that Africa will need its renaissance--and then some--but when I think of the childhood my daughter could have growing up in SA it's difficult to ignore.
> 
> ...


Poortrekker, I hear what you say,when you have swum in its rivers, the water forms part of your blood and the Dust part of your body.
If you love Africa, its part of your body and life forever and its very easy to love it.

Its also safe to say that none of our children could grow up as we did and tahts probably true anywhere.

I too have a daughter and its because of her that I left.
Had I a son I might have thought differently.
I agree with you about the people, South Africans are a good looking,friendly, innovative bunch, the food is special to those who love it, the brand of humour unique, its culture blend of so much that is good and its challenges and punishments harsh for stupidity.

Where you and I may differ is that the risk of what it might cost me is greater than I am prepared to pay.

Crime and death are everywhere, but as you said its the frequency and high possibility that is unacceptable to me.

I looked at the whole situation after our incident, I had been lucky for 54 years, it was likeley that I could be lucky for another 54
It is not guaranteed that my daughter will be killed or suffer a living death,

but....
at some stage of her life she will want to date, go to parties, come home late at night, kiss someone goodnight and have a last quick cuddle before going inside,
she will want to go for long walks on beaches and valleys,....

and my experience has shown that that is when she is the most vulnerable.

As she gets older, its very likely that she will work hard enough and certainly be intelligent enough to go to University, and at that point, unless she is in the top 9.7% of exam results, unless here are major changes I cannot see, she will be unable , as two of my nieces are, to be able to study her choice of subjects.

she will be limited by the very Colour coded mindset that we celebrated the end of in 1994.

when she starts work, her future career can also very easily be affected by her skin colour.

As a young woman, wife and mother one day, its also likely that she would have to find her future or that of her husband, overseas, at the very moment in life that it becomes difficult for older people to travel.
or settle overseas.

I am making assumptions

They are that I cannot see Crime decreasing when you already have two million AIDS orphans growing up.

I cannot see AA in either Education or work being lifted, in fact I can see it increasing.

the Current White unemployment might only be 4.3% of the white population, but there are millions of vacant positions that can only be filled by previously disadvantaged people, and to me, a University Graduate is no longer disadvantaged.

And every single young white person I speak to in SA has a glass ceiling.

just my 20cents worth.


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## poortrekker (Dec 29, 2011)

All good points. I haven't lived there for over 20 years, so my impressions are definitely based just on our visits, what I hear from family and friends and what I read. (And certainly I've never been on the receiving end of an act of violent crime.)

I had also pondered the effect of crime & economy on a daughter who will eventually grow up and want to go out, study, travel etc (although she'd have a "free pass" to the US or Europe) so it becomes a matter of weighing risk vs reward.

I had a long conversation with a friend who has lived all over SA for a number of years and she was not shy about downplaying the crime factor. "You just have to be sensible and careful." One of the lucky ones?


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Yes, being sensible and careful and you were lucky are words often spoken in SA.

but you have to be sensible and careful 24/7 365 and a 1/4 days x 54 years in my case and then you have to be certain that your Child or their boyfriend is sensible and careful and totally vigilant 24/7 x 52weeks for 70 years......
Its not a way I choose to live anymore and its one less worry with a daughter.

I'm not trying to instil fear, people are welcome to live where they want and how they want, possibility of crime is less out in the sticks and in the smaller towns, far away from Borders,...
but if my daughter wants to go to University its likely to be in a City or a town, and if I wished to continue living in SA smaller places cannot support me, it has to be in a City or a major Town because its no use my living in Tweepampeoneopdiedakgesit Fontein if I cannot afford the University fees never mind the School fees which are more than the Uni fees.....

if anyone wishes to diarise their actions in any of the major suburbs of any of the major cities iro of locking,unlocking, watching the rear view mirror, switching alarms off and switching them on.... hearing things go bump in te night and getting up to see what it is...

Then you will see why, for me, my daughter growing up in SA is just not feasible.


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## CamerDr (Jul 29, 2011)

Daxk said:


> Poortrekker, I hear what you say,when you have swum in its rivers, the water forms part of your blood and the Dust part of your body.
> If you love Africa, its part of your body and life forever and its very easy to love it.
> 
> Its also safe to say that none of our children could grow up as we did and tahts probably true anywhere.
> ...


Daxk, 

You seem to paint a racial picture of south africa that bears an exact resemblance of my own realities as a black man in the usa. you mention white unemployment in south africa being high, i guess i can relate to that given that black unemployment in the usa is way above the national average.

Life will never be fair but it is up to us to make sense of it and be at peace with our decision.


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## poortrekker (Dec 29, 2011)

I don't know if that was Daxk's angle, but it's _certainly no secret_ that a shift was to take place that would have favored those who had been victims of the white government's policies for so long (and rightly so!), without it becoming a bloodbath of retribution. But Mandela has remained (understandably?) silent about the growing discontent with the ANC's corruption and its inability--or unwillingness, as it turns out--to address the needs of the very people it was created to serve.

The former white middle class has been replaced by a black middle class, and the poor and wretched remain poor and wretched. Just like in the good old US of A! See? Human nature is never all that surprising.

So there's nothing particularly extraordinary about this IMO, whichever way you look at it. Just more of the same old corruption of power.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

CamerDr said:


> Daxk,
> 
> You seem to paint a racial picture of south africa that bears an exact resemblance of my own realities as a black man in the usa. you mention white unemployment in south africa being high, i guess i can relate to that given that black unemployment in the usa is way above the national average.
> 
> Life will never be fair but it is up to us to make sense of it and be at peace with our decision.


Camer, I think you misunderstood, in the SA context white unemployment is LOW at 4.5% of the white Population.

of the entire population of 48+ million there are only 13 million taxpayers in total, 

official unemployment figures follow the broad definition that if you have not attempted to find work in two weeks you are classified as a discouraged job seeker not as one of the 23% unemployed!

although you have affirmative action in the USA it relates to increasing minority employment whereas in SA AA relates to increasing the majority's employment.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

poortrekker said:


> SA is also in dire need of certain skill sets (IT, medicine, engineering, etc) so that's another consideration.


Ummmmmmmm, I wonder why that is? Doh - Its Africa and will slowly be consumed..... It may someday flourish but not in my lifetime.

Opportunity... Its everywhere but in SA it may come at a price. Are you will to pay it?


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## DonoZA (Jan 10, 2012)

My parents have been help up in an armed robbery. Thankfully they got away with only minor physical injuries. 
My partner's parents have been help up twice. The second time they beat his 70 year old mom with their gun.
My landlord has asked me to find another apartment to live in, because she was held up in an armed robbery. I'm trying to find another security complex (more like compound) to live in until I leave for Australia.
Of the plus/minus 7 friends who still live here, 5 have been hijacked or held up in armed robberies. 
One friends parents were murdered. 
This all happened in the last 12 to 18 months. 

My advice? STAY AWAY.


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## Rhino101 (Sep 16, 2011)

*South African Crime*

As an mature South African, who lived on the West of Johannesburg, and worked in the property market there, I believe I can share some valuable information with you. I have lived in Cape Town, East London, Johannesburg, Zimbabwe and Swaziland. Worked in Mozambique, Zambia and Congo.

I left Johannesburg for Dubai In August last year. Crime is serious and although some like to gloss over it and say that there is crime everywhere, I have never known the Violent and senseless crime as experienced in South Africa. I have been mugged, Hi-Jacked at Gun point, my family have been held hostage while their house was ransacked. my sons female friend was gang raped by 8 attackers and then murdered, and the latest my Daughter and boyfriend were robbed of there mobile phones at gun point while stopped at a traffic light, while a police car was stopped next to them...

There is zero respect for human life, and clients (property) who have left South Africa for greener pastures have mostly left because of violent crime to them, or family members. 

Seriously, it is just not safe anywhere really, one needs to be on ones guard at all times. You may lock yourself in your prison, with security gates on all windows and doors, behind 10 strand electric fences, add an alarm system, with armed response and feel some kind of safely when at home. But you still need to negotiate the roads, and shopping centres where its not fun to be faced with 10 AK 47 welding robbers, who will shoot indiscriminately.

So yes you can take a chance that it will not happen to you, or your family.. But I would not, my if I was a cat, I would have used up my 9 life quota by now... 

Do I sound like I am painting a black picture??? sure but its the truth. Crime stats are horrendous, and totally controlled, so no one really knows the true position. General public feel safer calling their armed response than they do calling the police tells you something.

Having said all that, I still have family and friends living in various parts of South Africa, who have lived without serious incident for many years. They are comfortable and will tell you that it is not as bad as some say. So everyone makes decisions based on their own experiences and perceptions. But if someone asks me would I recommned them moving to South Africa, I could not do that.

As for me... I love Dubai, the freedom of being able to walk in the streets at any time, day or night without fear of being attacked, shot, raped etc. is awesome. Here there are consequences for breaking the law, so it great for people who understand that without the law being enforced, all you get is lawlessness. And yes there is crime here too, but nowhere near the same in number per 100,000 people, or violence.

Anyway, that my 2 cents worth...


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Rhino101 said:


> As for me... I love Dubai, the freedom of being able to walk in the streets at any time, day or night without fear of being attacked, shot, raped etc. is awesome. Here there are consequences for breaking the law, so it great for people who understand that without the law being enforced, all you get is lawlessness. And yes there is crime here too, but nowhere near the same in number per 100,000 people, or violence.
> 
> Anyway, that my 2 cents worth...


Dubai may be "safe" but as for Freedom - There is none.


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## poortrekker (Dec 29, 2011)

Good response, thanks.

In truth, I'm almost as much concerned with crime as I am with a government that seems to be proposing increasingly bizarre laws by the week. Just one, for example:
South Africa weather forecasters threatened with jail if predictions wrong - Telegraph

Is this how fledgling democracies eventually turn into dictatorships? Scary.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

poortrekker said:


> Good response, thanks.
> 
> In truth, I'm almost as much concerned with crime as I am with a government that seems to be proposing increasingly bizarre laws by the week. Just one, for example:
> South Africa weather forecasters threatened with jail if predictions wrong - Telegraph
> ...


Jaaa well!! Sarf Effricans take their Braai seriously!!
its a crime if you plan a Braai and it rains unexpectedly, without permission.


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## poortrekker (Dec 29, 2011)

Oh and the official weather office/department would of course be immune to this law, if their own prediction happened to be incorrect. Sigh.

So if you see a tornado, a mud slide or a tsunami approaching, don't bother alerting your neighbors. Better to be lawful than common-sensical!


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## Stevan (Jun 30, 2009)

Daxk said:


> Jaaa well!! Sarf Effricans take their Braai seriously!!
> its a crime if you plan a Braai and it rains unexpectedly, without permission.


every time i open a bag of charcoal it rains, sun can be splitting the trees and i end up grilling in the rain.

does anyone remember Michael Fish teling us there would be no hurricane in 1987. My garden shed ended up just outside edinburgh and i lived in dorset at the time.

I bet in the E.U corridors of power there are guys kicking themselfs. sombody came up with a stupid law that they didnt think of first.


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## Rhino101 (Sep 16, 2011)

Halo said:


> Ummmmmmmm, I wonder why that is? Doh - Its Africa and will slowly be consumed..... It may someday flourish but not in my lifetime.
> 
> Opportunity... Its everywhere but in SA it may come at a price. Are you will to pay it?


The reason there is a lack of skills, is that the "Black Empowerment" has caused Skilled people to be removed from their positions in favour of unskilled workers, who are employed by colour rather than skills. Result is the skilled people ie Doctors, Teachers in fact anyone who id highly skilled, to move to other countries. So Auatralia, New Zealand, UAE etc get the benefit.. Sad but true..


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