# Problems with Mexican pre-university education



## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

I wasn't totally surprised by the findings reported by this study, but I was surprised at the fact that 65% of those entering some of Mexico's most presitigious universities are highly deficient in reading and writing skills:

Los jóvenes llegan a universidad sin comprender lo que leen, alerta un estudio — La Jornada


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

Isla Verde said:


> I wasn't totally surprised by the findings reported by this study, but I was surprised at the fact that 65% of those entering some of Mexico's most presitigious universities are highly deficient in reading and writing skills:
> 
> Los jóvenes llegan a universidad sin comprender lo que leen, alerta un estudio — La Jornada


I agree with the article, but, is it really VERY different in other Countries?
Are young people well prepared to read UNDERSTAND and write?
Today they text all day long, and if you have a chance to read what they "write" is is shameful


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

GARYJ65 said:


> I agree with the article, but, is it really VERY different in other Countries?
> Are young people well prepared to read UNDERSTAND and write?
> Today they text all day long, and if you have a chance to read what they "write" is is shameful


My post was not about "other countries", but about Mexico. Saying that things are pretty much like this in other countries is not a very good argument, Gary. Do you have some studies to back up your assertion?


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## maesonna (Jun 10, 2008)

I think it’s relevant to bring up the issue of whether this is happening in other countries, too. 

Because if it is uniquely the case in Mexico, then this is a Mexican problem, and it can be addressed by considering what is wrong with Mexico and how to fix it. 

And if it isn’t, then it is a human problem that can be addressed by looking at what the causes are in human societies, or the modern age, in general.


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

It is certainly a problem in the USA, especially across the bottom of the country in general and in most large urban settings. 
It bodes ill for the future; the present is not doing too well, for that matter.


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

RVGRINGO said:


> It is certainly a problem in the USA, especially across the bottom of the country in general and in most large urban settings.
> It bodes ill for the future; the present is not doing too well, for that matter.


" I was surprised at the fact that 65% of those entering some of Mexico's most presitigious universities are highly deficient in reading and writing skills:"
THIS was the "quote that I.V. was responding to, RV. 65% of those entering some of the "most prestigious universities" in Mexico are deficient in these 2 areas. My challenge to you, RV, or anyone else, is to show me the stats where THAT happens NOB. Remember, the key is "prestigious", not just any "run of the mill universities" Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Princeton, Stanford, U. of Chicago, M.I.T., Rice University, UCLA, U. of Virginia, Emory University, etc. You get the idea.  (lets compare Apples to Apples, and not get sidetracked, ok?)


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

maesonna said:


> I think it’s relevant to bring up the issue of whether this is happening in other countries, too.
> 
> Because if it is uniquely the case in Mexico, then this is a Mexican problem, and it can be addressed by considering what is wrong with Mexico and how to fix it.
> 
> And if it isn’t, then it is a human problem that can be addressed by looking at what the causes are in human societies, or the modern age, in general.


AND, lets support our claims with studies, like the OP did, ok? That way we are talking about Apples to Apples.


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

Ok, I am guilty. I threw in a pear and a tangerine. Not close enough? Or, too close?


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

The poor education level of the younger generations has been a complaint going back to Socrates...


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

I've worked in or for several universities in Mexico and it comes as a no surprise to me that there is so much ignorance the result of a failed national education policy staffed by what I think are mostly incompetent "teachers."


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

RVGRINGO said:


> Ok, I am guilty. I threw in a pear and a tangerine. Not close enough? Or, too close?


No even out in right field.


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

Isla Verde said:


> My post was not about "other countries", but about Mexico. Saying that things are pretty much like this in other countries is not a very good argument, Gary. Do you have some studies to back up your assertion?


I know your post was about Mexico, but mine added other Countries, I liked it that way
If things are similar elsewhere too is not a good argument, according to me, it is
Which assertion of mine need studies, sometimes one do not need studies to prove a point


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

GARYJ65 said:


> I know your post was about Mexico, but mine added other Countries, I liked it that way
> If things are similar elsewhere too is not a good argument, according to me, it is
> Which assertion of mine need studies, sometimes one do not need studies to prove a point


Assertions prove nothing, Gary. Where is your proof?


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

Some things are not universal, and this is not a universal truth, that it happens in all countries. Maybe this statement by the OP is a major difference between "first world countries" and the others.


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

Isla Verde said:


> Assertions prove nothing, Gary. Where is your proof?


I don't have one, hence, I am wrong?
If so, I do not care


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

GARYJ65 said:


> I don't have one, hence, I am wrong?
> If so, I do not care


That's a weak way to end this discussion.


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

Isla Verde said:


> That's a weak way to end this discussion.


I don't want to use the strong way, I may get banned

What I don't like is to be told what to say and bossed around, not used to


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

GARYJ65 said:


> I don't want to use the strong way, I may get banned
> 
> What I don't like is to be told what to say and bossed around, not used to


I'm sorry you see someone disagreeing with you as bossing you around.


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

Well, I can't find any studies that suggest the same thing is happening NOB. Does that mean this is a Mexican thing, or what? There must be reasons why it is true in Mexico, and not NOB then. Any ideas?


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## Cristobal (Nov 25, 2014)

coondawg said:


> Well, I can't find any studies that suggest the same thing is happening NOB. Does that mean this is a Mexican thing, or what? There must be reasons why it is true in Mexico, and not NOB then. Any ideas?


Maybe you need to try harder? The study was done in Mexico City. It wasn't shown to be true throughout all of Mexico. Maybe you missed that. There must be a reason. Any idea?


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## Cristobal (Nov 25, 2014)

Bingo!! My first attempt yielded the following:



> Every year in the United States, nearly 60% of first-year college students discover that, despite being fully eligible to attend college, they are not ready for postsecondary studies. After enrolling, these students learn that they must take remedial courses in English or mathematics, which do not earn college credits. This gap between college eligibility and college readiness has attracted much attention in the last decade, yet it persists unabated. While access to college remains a major challenge, states have been much more successful in getting students into college than in providing them with the knowledge and skills needed to complete certificates or degrees. Increasingly, it appears that states or postsecondary institutions may be enrolling students under false pretenses. Even those students who have done everything they were told to do to prepare for college find, often after they arrive, that their new institution has deemed them unprepared. Their high school diploma, college-preparatory curriculum, and high school exit examination scores did not ensure college readiness.
> 
> Lack of readiness for college is a major culprit in low graduation rates, as the majority of students who begin in remedial courses never complete their college degrees. As a result, improving college readiness must be an essential part of national and state efforts to increase college attainment.
> 
> Figure 1 shows the extent of the college readiness problem by portraying the gap between eligibility for college and readiness to do college-level work. Students in public colleges and universities attend one of three types of postsecondary institutions: highly selective four-year institutions, somewhat selective four-year institutions, and nonselective or open-access two-year colleges. The readiness gap is nominal in the most selective universities because their admissions criteria screen out most students who are underprepared. The gap is huge, however, in the other two sectors of higher education, which serve between 80% and 90% of undergraduates in public institutions.


Beyond the Rhetoric - Improving College Readiness Through Coherent State Policy


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

Cristobal said:


> Maybe you need to try harder? The study was done in Mexico City. It wasn't shown to be true throughout all of Mexico. Maybe you missed that. There must be a reason. Any idea?


Are you saying that you have some information that will ad to understanding this thread? And whether it applies to other countries? If so, please share it. Tell us what you have found, ok?


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

Cristobal said:


> Bingo!! My first attempt yielded the following: Improving College Readiness Through Coherent State Policy]


Sorry, Crisobal, no Bingo here, You are not replying to this post (I'll put it here again for you):

" I was surprised at the fact that 65% of those entering some of Mexico's most presitigious universities are highly deficient in reading and writing skills:"

THIS was the "quote that I.V. was responding to, 65% of those entering some of the "most prestigious universities" in Mexico are deficient in these 2 areas. My challenge to you, or anyone else, is to show us the stats where THAT happens NOB. Remember, the key is "prestigious", not just any "run of the mill universities" Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Princeton, Stanford, U. of Chicago, M.I.T., Rice University, UCLA, U. of Virginia, Emory University, etc. You get the idea. (lets compare Apples to Apples, and not get sidetracked, ok?) 
The Largisimo, TundraGreen and Isla Verde like this.


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

Actually, Cristobal, after reading your post a second time (I like to read again to be sure that I have not missed something), I discovered that I HAD missed something very important, and I believe that you have indeed "hit" upon something that does address the post very well. To use your words, I think there is a " Bingo!" here.  It comes in THIS sentence : "The readiness gap is nominal in the most selective universities (in the US) because their admissions criteria screen out most students who are underprepared." THERE IT IS !!! That is the statement that says that what the OP discovered about those Universities in Mexico is NOT true in the US.

YOU DID GOOD, Cristobal ! Thank you,


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

Thank you.


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## sparks (Jun 17, 2007)

I didn't realize there is an entrance exam to get into Prepa (high school) and my neighbor who has been goofing off in Secondaria with almost no homework is gonna have to take it in a few months. They gave him a pamphlet about what the test would contain which is mostly, history, math and English. I want a closer look at it so maybe I can help him. If he doesn't pass he doesn't get in and looses his 600 pesos. Back to Secondaria ??


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

My niece, did poorly on her exam to pass to H.S. (here). They told her that there was not enough room for her in H.S. this year, and that she could "check" back next year (they thought there would be a place). So, she is helping mom clean house, cook, wash clothes, and sell a few "candies" this school year(16 years old).  
Last year, her sister, now 17, was "sent home" at mid term from the first year in H.S. because her grades were poor. They said she could try again this year. So, at mid term this year, she has re-enrolled.
The sad part is that both mom and dad only went to 7th grade before dropping out, and they have not made any effort to help. Both are ready for the girls to get out of the house. Such can be the life of children anywhere, but many here. 
The education system everywhere needs parental help, but the schools have a responsibility to do the best job they can, with what they have. 
Can you imagine the reaction NOB if those things happened to children there? These children are not troublemakers, that is a different subject.
As a retired educator, I am ashamed for those teachers and schools that do that to children, and as a parent, too.  ( Parents can make a BIG difference in the quality of education of their children, but they must be involved).


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## sparks (Jun 17, 2007)

Thing that bothers me on how well he will do on the test is .... his sister is in Secondaria this year and she is over here almost every day with Internet homework, Math or help with English


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

sparks said:


> Thing that bothers me on how well he will do on the test is .... his sister is in Secondaria this year and she is over here almost every day with Internet homework, Math or help with English


Wife says that if he is paying 600 pesos, then he is trying to get into a "private" H.S. So, if he doesn't do well, maybe "public", if there is room?
Maybe sister is over there a lot because she "likes it" over there.


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## Cristobal (Nov 25, 2014)

coondawg said:


> Wife says that if he is paying 600 pesos, then he is trying to get into a "private" H.S. So, if he doesn't do well, maybe "public", if there is room?
> Maybe sister is over there a lot because she "likes it" over there.


Actually, noting from the location Sparks is posting from, the 600 pesos is a fee charged to enter the UdeG system preparatoria in Cihuatlan, Jalisco. Obviously a public school. The test will be taken the first week of June. Those not accepted at the Cihuatlan campus will be able to attend the prepa in Melaque or the CECyTEJ school in Jaluco.


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## sparks (Jun 17, 2007)

This is the Prepa in Melaque that he just paid the 600 pesos


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## Cristobal (Nov 25, 2014)

sparks said:


> This is the Prepa in Melaque that he just paid the 600 pesos


That school also belongs to the University of Guadalajara.

Costos de trámites de primer ingreso | Coordinación de Control Escolar

Yes, the fees listed at the link are for entrance to public schools, not private.


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

BY "public" schools, I was referring to those that are run by the government and open to citizens that have very little or no money. Not owned by various other entities. It may be different here, but NOB, "public" schools, are open to all children; "private" have fees, and are not governmental.


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## sparks (Jun 17, 2007)

Primary and Secondary schools don't cost much and this High School entrance fee is a one time thing. No less expensive schools around here. No private schools that I've heard of nearby


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## Cristobal (Nov 25, 2014)

coondawg said:


> BY "public" schools, I was referring to those that are run by the government and open to citizens that have very little or no money. Not owned by various other entities. It may be different here, but NOB, "public" schools, are open to all children; "private" have fees, and are not governmental.


The school that the young person Sparks mentioned is applying to is a "public" school. Run by the government and open to all, whether the student is from a poor family or a rich family. My wife and her 8 siblings all attended UdG prepas and some went on to graduate from the university. They come from an upper middle class background. I have a niece that attends the same secundaria as the friend of Sparks and has applied to the prepa in Cihuatlan. [Cut] there is no tuition at these "public" schools owned and operated by the government.

My 3 children attended "public" elementary and jr. high before attending private high schools and universities. The "public" schools were open to one and all and with the exception of the infamously illegal "cuotas voluntarias" (scam run by individual school administrations) they were absolutely free. During the time my children were in school, I attended countless "Padres de Familia" meetings along with many other school events and activities.


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## sparks (Jun 17, 2007)

Just wrote a Blog post on the Prepa entrance test

Sparks Mexico: Doin' the Math

To me it seems very difficult for any student .... especially the English. What's the percentage of students that pass or is this just a formality?

Link to Prep Test for High School in Mexico - PDF file
http://www.cetys.mx/userfiles/admisiones/GuiaEstudio_PII_2011.pdf


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## Meritorious-MasoMenos (Apr 17, 2014)

GARYJ65 said:


> I agree with the article, but, is it really VERY different in other Countries?
> Are young people well prepared to read UNDERSTAND and write?
> Today they text all day long, and if you have a chance to read what they "write" is is shameful


I can't resist resurrecting Bye-bye Birdie, especially re comment that today's kids texts are "shameful":

Kids, I don't know what's wrong with these kids today
Kids, who can understand anything they say?
Kids, they are disobedient, disrespectful oafs
Noisy, crazy, sloppy, lazy, loafers
And while we're on the subject

Kids, you can talk and talk till your face is blue
Kids, but they still do just what they want to do
Why can't they be like we were, perfect in every way?
What's the matter with kids today?

Kids, I don't mind the moonlight swims
If I [Incomprehensible] the [Incomprehensible] that hurts
Kids, how we ever beat the Russians
Kids, I didn't know what puberty was, it was almost past it
Laughing, singing, dancing, grinning, morons
And while we're on the subject

Kids, they are just impossible to control
Kids, with their awful clothes and their rock an' roll
Why can't they dance like we did
What's wrong with Sammy Caine?
What's the matter with kids today?






Also, GET OFF OF MY LAWN!


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