# Morsi Speech



## MaidenScotland

Twice in one week, President Mohamed Morsi addressed Egyptians from a mosque. Each speech was more like a religious sermon than a political address. The following excerpts illustrate this point:

“Quran has everything for us, if we follow it, we would never need anything else.”

“God told us to rule people with what is ‘right’; not what they want.”

“it is the duty of everyone to advocate virtue.”

“God will accept your prayers only if you follow his order.”

For non-Islamists, it may look strange and puzzling to choose a place of worship as the site to address the public, particularly following his most significant political decision – dismissing top military command, Field Marshall Tantawi, among many other high rank army officers − but it is definitely a logical move, according to his Islamist grassroots supporters. With a state media under his control, Morsi’s aim was clearly to appeal to a wider section of Egyptian society. His target group is conservative Muslims who do not necessarily identify themselves as Islamists but who would be willing to listen to religious speeches because they have a natural affinity as “men of God.” To this group, Morsi delivered a clear unambiguous message: “I am a good man, and you should trust me.”


You can read the rest of this blog at Egypt’s New Grand Imam | Nervana


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## hurghadapat

MaidenScotland said:


> Twice in one week, President Mohamed Morsi addressed Egyptians from a mosque. Each speech was more like a religious sermon than a political address. The following excerpts illustrate this point:
> 
> “Quran has everything for us, if we follow it, we would never need anything else.”
> 
> “God told us to rule people with what is ‘right’; not what they want.”
> 
> “it is the duty of everyone to advocate virtue.”
> 
> “God will accept your prayers only if you follow his order.”
> 
> For non-Islamists, it may look strange and puzzling to choose a place of worship as the site to address the public, particularly following his most significant political decision – dismissing top military command, Field Marshall Tantawi, among many other high rank army officers − but it is definitely a logical move, according to his Islamist grassroots supporters. With a state media under his control, Morsi’s aim was clearly to appeal to a wider section of Egyptian society. His target group is conservative Muslims who do not necessarily identify themselves as Islamists but who would be willing to listen to religious speeches because they have a natural affinity as “men of God.” To this group, Morsi delivered a clear unambiguous message: “I am a good man, and you should trust me.”
> 
> 
> You can read the rest of this blog at Egypt’s New Grand Imam | Nervana


Just read this.....

MB leader says religion in politics now acceptable - News - Aswat Masriya


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## MaidenScotland

I have two friends who are very political but they are on holiday, it will be good to catch up with them when they get back to see what their views are on what has happened over the summer.


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## Jamjoom

Yes, this is Morsi and this is his views. These are the views of MB. Separation of a church and state is just that: of church and state. Because christianity is different from Islam. This is how MB and others view it. It is their right to think so. I have been in hundreds of debates, they do have a point. They never had the chance to rule. Now is their chance.

That said its too early to judge. I personally do not care what he believes in as long as he fixes the economy and makes egypt better. To do that he needs good political vision and to stop old regime + new theifs in the system.


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## MaidenScotland

Jamjoom said:


> Yes, this is Morsi and this is his views. These are the views of MB. Separation of a church and state is just that: of church and state. Because christianity is different from Islam. This is how MB and others view it. It is their right to think so. I have been in hundreds of debates, they do have a point. They never had the chance to rule. Now is their chance.
> 
> That said its too early to judge. I personally do not care what he believes in as long as he fixes the economy and makes egypt better. To do that he needs good political vision and to stop old regime + new theifs in the system.




religion and politics do not mix.. religion is based on fear.. fear of god, fear of retribution, fear of another religion.. so to have a religion that is not your belief as your government will I imagine make you fear that government. All men are equal regardless of their belief.


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## Jamjoom

All people are equal. There is no issue there.
Islam is different from christianity in that regard. your background is Christian, so it is different. Muslims view Islam as a way of life. Islam has rules and laws for very specific issues. Christinaity is different. This is a fundamental difference. Jesus was living under the empire. he did not start a "nation". His teachings were purely spiritual. He simply didnt have time.

And the fear of government does not tie in with that view. I have participated in a lot of these debates so I am just trying to convey the actual message I heard because a lot of people did not hear it properly. I am agnostic myself.

So all men are equal yes. No issues there. There is no fear of government even if you have different views. This is a basic right in any system.


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## MaidenScotland

Jamjoom said:


> All people are equal. There is no issue there.
> Islam is different from christianity in that regard. your background is Christian, so it is different. Muslims view Islam as a way of life. Islam has rules and laws for very specific issues. Christinaity is different. This is a fundamental difference. Jesus was living under the empire. he did not start a "nation". His teachings were purely spiritual. He simply didnt have time.
> 
> And the fear of government does not tie in with that view. I have participated in a lot of these debates so I am just trying to convey the actual message I heard because a lot of people did not hear it properly. I am agnostic myself.
> 
> So all men are equal yes. No issues there. There is no fear of government even if you have different views. This is a basic right in any system.




there will be a fear of government if it is based on a religion and that religion is not your belief.. It also tells the person who is not of that religion that they are second class citizens by quite simply saying, our religion is the way to live and that is why we are basing the country laws/rules on it.


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## Jamjoom

Indeed, and this is the fundamental difference.
MB want Egypt as an Islamic country since the majority are muslims. Like Israel is a jewish country.
I find that honest. because US and UK "claim" they are is no religion yet the country has an underlying Christian tone.
We cango on and on about how US authorities work to restrain any religion from forming any strong holds in the country even though it is not illegal; the tactics they use to disperse people from certain backgrounds around so they remain a minority..etc.


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## MaidenScotland

Jamjoom said:


> Indeed, and this is the fundamental difference.
> MB want Egypt as an Islamic country since the majority are muslims. Like Israel is a jewish country.
> I find that honest. because US and UK "claim" they are is no religion yet the country has an underlying Christian tone.
> We cango on and on about how US authorities work to restrain any religion from forming any strong holds in the country even though it is not illegal; the tactics they use to disperse people from certain backgrounds around so they remain a minority..etc.




I don't know about the USA but I can tell you that the UK goes out of it's way to accommodate different faiths and more so Islam.. there are towns in the UK that do not allow their schools to have a nativity play as it might offend..


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## Jamjoom

I am personally with Christians being under their own laws (no-divorce...etc)..
and this is the case. No one will subject christians to islamic laws.


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## MaidenScotland

Jamjoom said:


> I am personally with Christians being under their own laws (no-divorce...etc)..
> and this is the case. No one will subject christians to islamic laws.




but that divides the country.. the country should be ruled for the good of all people regardless of religion.


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## Jamjoom

If thats the case why wasn't Mohammed Al-Fayed given British citizenship, even though he satisfied all the requirements.
In his explanations he claimed that Philippe (sp?) was a Nazi, and was against allowing any super rich influential Muslim men in legally. So he played witht the rules.


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## Jamjoom

Christians do not have divorce. Muslims have divorce.
How can you reconciliate? it just cant happen unless you make a 3rd rule which both parties wont accept.


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## Jamjoom

Also, being experienced in US public policy issues, let me just tell you that in theory, a Mulsim can be a president. In reality that will never happen. and when that's close to hapening all rules will change.

US implements easy stuff that is not politically influential to take advantage of assimilating foreigners and taking advantage of them. but there is a team working behind closed door to keep the system the way it is. Once there is a real threat, all rules will bend.


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## MaidenScotland

Jamjoom said:


> If thats the case why wasn't Mohammed Al-Fayed given British citizenship, even though he satisfied all the requirements.
> In his explanations he claimed that Philippe (sp?) was a Nazi, and was against allowing any super rich influential Muslim men in legally. So he played witht the rules.




I have no idea why he wasn't allowed citizenship but I would guess religion had nothing to do with it.. we have Muslim MPs plus local council men in office in the UK who would be a lot more influential than Mohammed Al Fayed.. who incidentally is not Al Fayed but just plain old Fayed.. The fact he could also say that he thought Prince Philip was a Nazi and still be allowed in the country shows that PP has no influence when it comes to who can and cannot enter the UK


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## Jamjoom

Thats your view.
but I bet Alfayed has more info since he has been in this case for years.
it is easy to say that nothing happens. but what happens behind closed doors is a different issues. Lawmakers are not honest as they seem to be.


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## MaidenScotland

Jamjoom said:


> Thats your view.
> but I bet Alfayed has more info since he has been in this case for years.
> it is easy to say that nothing happens. but what happens behind closed doors is a different issues. Lawmakers are not honest as they seem to be.




Prince Philip has no power.. he makes no laws nor does QE11


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## Jamjoom

This is exactly what i am saying.
From the outside it looks that way. From inside its a different story. It is not as transparent as it seems to be.


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## MaidenScotland

Jamjoom said:


> This is exactly what i am saying.
> From the outside it looks that way. From inside its a different story. It is not as transparent as it seems to be.



The UK is ruled by an elected government the queen is only the figure head of state.. Prince philip is only her husband..
but at the end of the day what has that got to do with Morsi Speech..


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## Jamjoom

You are talking about the apparent organization.
What happens between closed doors is a different story. It is easy for me to say I am one thing , and close the door and do something else. besides it is a very known story, I am surprised you dont know about it.,


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## MaidenScotland

Jamjoom said:


> You are talking about the apparent organization.
> What happens between closed doors is a different story. It is easy for me to say I am one thing , and close the door and do something else. besides it is a very known story, I am surprised you dont know about it.,




Of course I knew he had been denied citizenship but for you to state that is was because of his religion is imo nonsense.. the it's because of my religion is brought out at every opportunity in the UK.. I will state that your religion matters a lot less in the UK than it does it Egypt.

I also know that Fayed says he went to Victoria College/School in Alex and he didn't attend this school.. he is quite good at inventing things.


You have said that you are ok that Coptic Christians here live under different rules/laws.. so what happens to atheists and agnostics what laws and rules have they to live by, what about me as a Roman Catholic.. will I have a different set of guidelines?


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## Jamjoom

See Egypt works different from UK.
Egypt is not a land for immigration and does not accept immigration. accept not yet.
Catholics will be ruled by their church in issues related to faith. Agnostics and athiests are not really accepted in egypt.
So they can migrate to UK for that.

Egypt is 90% Muslim, 10% christian state.
Above is accepted by most of the lawmakers here.


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## Jamjoom

How do you know he did not go to Victoria?
who cares if he went to victoria or not. This is not the issue.
Guy is living in Uk, has UK citizens in his family, investor. he is definitely more qualified than a lot of people who are given citizenships weekly.


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## MaidenScotland

Jamjoom said:


> See Egypt works different from UK.
> Egypt is not a land for immigration and does not accept immigration. accept not yet.
> Catholics will be ruled by their church in issues related to faith. Agnostics and athiests are not really accepted in egypt.
> So they can migrate to UK for that.
> 
> Egypt is 90% Muslim, 10% christian state.
> Above is accepted by most of the lawmakers here.




Catholics will be ruled by their church in issues related to faith... exactly.. nothing to do with the ruling government as it should be..


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## expatagogo

Jamjoom said:


> See Egypt works different from UK.
> Egypt is not a land for immigration and does not accept immigration. accept not yet.
> Catholics will be ruled by their church in issues related to faith. Agnostics and athiests are not really accepted in egypt.
> So they can migrate to UK for that.


When the dust settles the only "religion" that will be acceptable is an Arabized version of Sunni Islam.



Jamjoom said:


> Egypt is 90% Muslim, 10% christian state.
> Above is accepted by most of the lawmakers here.


Even though it's not accurate. That 10% is Coptic Christians and doesn't include all of the other Christians that live in Egypt (Roman Catholic, evangelical, etc.). 

Believing and regurgitating the government's manipulated numbers is nothing more than perpetuating an untruth, the same untruth that says there are no illegitimate children in Egypt instead of admitting people boof like bunnies and throw the 'evidence' of their illicit relationship away, into orphanages and into the streets.

So stop it already.


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## expatagogo

MaidenScotland said:


> Catholics will be ruled by their church in issues related to faith... exactly.. nothing to do with the ruling government as it should be..


Right.

Egypt just opened its doors to Jehovah Witnesses, a type of Christian. Jehovah Witnesses can and do divorce. What about that group?


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## Githa

Jamjoom said:


> I am personally with Christians being under their own laws (no-divorce...etc)..
> and this is the case. No one will subject christians to islamic laws.


you must be joking ? !!
would you like it to be as in South Africa with apartheid - if you're white, you have a law - if you are a Christian, you have a law - if you are an Englishman another law - if you are from Egypt jew and married to an Englishman, you follow laws 47 and have completely different rights than your neighbor no matter whoever he may be???
Githa


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## expatagogo

Githa said:


> you must be joking ? !!
> would you like it to be as in South Africa with apartheid - if you're white, you have a law - if you are a Christian, you have a law - if you are an Englishman another law - if you are from Egypt jew and married to an Englishman, you follow laws 47 and have completely different rights than your neighbor no matter whoever he may be???
> Githa


Right, all because your daddy either whispered something into your ear the day you were born or he didn't.

It's so nonsensical.


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## MaidenScotland

I am personally with Christians being under their own laws (no-divorce...etc)..
and this is the case. No one will subject christians to islamic laws.

.. we follow our own churches doctrine but the country should not be ruled by faith.. 

You can not divide a country through religion without their being horrendous repercussions.


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## hurghadapat

MaidenScotland said:


> I have no idea why he wasn't allowed citizenship but I would guess religion had nothing to do with it.. we have Muslim MPs plus local council men in office in the UK who would be a lot more influential than Mohammed Al Fayed.. who incidentally is not Al Fayed but just plain old Fayed.. The fact he could also say that he thought Prince Philip was a Nazi and still be allowed in the country shows that PP has no influence when it comes to who can and cannot enter the UK


It was all to do with Tiny Rowlands and Fayed lying about his age and wealth or at least that was the start of it....lot more followed on.


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## expatagogo

hurghadapat said:


> It was all to do with Tiny Rowlands and Fayed lying about his age and wealth or at least that was the start of it....lot more followed on.


No point in letting facts get in the way of rumor and innuendo; it fails to serve the "victim" purpose.


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## Jamjoom

Again, this is where we agree. the fundamental difference here is that Egypt is an Islamic country. It is not the same as the US or the UK. Same as Israel that you did not comment on.

If you want man-made laws of land, the US and the UK will be a good choice. and other immigration lands like canada and so on. Even thought the basics of their rules is christian.

For the person that said my count of Christians is incorrect, where do you get your information from. and yes it is incorrect because according to international organizations, christians are actually 6-8 % maximum. This is not the government statistics. If you have other information, share it with us. Regardless of the number which below 10%, and if people vote on the kind of law they want to adopt, Most people here would like to adopt Islamic law with the Christian minority being ruled in their issues by church.

Remember, when I say law that does not mean every single law will be divided; only issues related to differences. Christianity does not have a law, really. Christians always followed the law of land they live in except for some issues.

Do not compare Egypt to UK or US. It is a totally different fundamental principle. THe above is where I think the country is going. Some people ask for man-made laws like US or UK. However they remain a minority. Regardless, if there is a democratic system, people can try. and they have the right to.


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## MaidenScotland

Jamjoom said:


> Again, this is where we agree. the fundamental difference here is that Egypt is an Islamic country. It is not the same as the US or the UK. Same as Israel that you did not comment on.
> 
> If you want man-made laws of land, the US and the UK will be a good choice. and other immigration lands like canada and so on. Even thought the basics of their rules is christian.
> 
> For the person that said my count of Christians is incorrect, where do you get your information from. and yes it is incorrect because according to international organizations, christians are actually 6-8 % maximum. This is not the government statistics. If you have other information, share it with us. Regardless of the number which below 10%, and if people vote on the kind of law they want to adopt, Most people here would like to adopt Islamic law with the Christian minority being ruled in their issues by church.
> 
> Remember, when I say law that does not mean every single law will be divided; only issues related to differences. Christianity does not have a law, really. Christians always followed the law of land they live in except for some issues.
> 
> Do not compare Egypt to UK or US. It is a totally different fundamental principle. THe above is where I think the country is going. Some people ask for man-made laws like US or UK. However they remain a minority. Regardless, if there is a democratic system, people can try. and they have the right to.




If good Muslims want to live by Islamic law there is nothing to stop them doing so.. it doesn't have to be the law of the land.


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## expatagogo

Jamjoom said:


> Again, this is where we agree. the fundamental difference here is that Egypt is an Islamic country. It is not the same as the US or the UK. Same as Israel that you did not comment on.


Egypt is not "an Islamic country." What gives you the idea it is?



Jamjoom said:


> If you want man-made laws of land, the US and the UK will be a good choice. and other immigration lands like canada and so on. Even thought the basics of their rules is christian.


I can't speak to the UK or Canada, but the "basics of" the US' "rules" (laws?) is not Christian. What give you the idea it is?



Jamjoom said:


> For the person that said my count of Christians is incorrect, where do you get your information from. and yes it is incorrect because according to international organizations, christians are actually 6-8 % maximum. This is not the government statistics. If you have other information, share it with us. Regardless of the number which below 10%, and if people vote on the kind of law they want to adopt, Most people here would like to adopt Islamic law with the Christian minority being ruled in their issues by church.


_


Jamjoom said:



Egypt is 90% Muslim, 10% christian state.
Above is accepted by most of the lawmakers here.

Click to expand...

_So which is it?

10%? 6-8%?

Or is it 14%?

| 100 6




Jamjoom said:


> Remember, when I say law that does not mean every single law will be divided; only issues related to differences. Christianity does not have a law, really. Christians always followed the law of land they live in except for some issues.


Or maybe because there's no "Christian country"?


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## Jamjoom

-This is the issue. Christians want a religionless country. However, most muslims want an Islamic country. That is religion-based laws. not man-made laws.

-The basics of all US laws is christianity. search "is US a christian nation?" and you will see tons of debates. The basic consequence is that the US is not a non-christian nation.

- THe link you sent is from an article in a no-brand newspaper. Christians always claimed they are in the 10-15% range. However there is nothing to support that claim. Research organizations that worked in Egypt indicated they are in the 5-7% range.
Number of Coptic Christians in Egypt Is Far Less Than Media Estimates, Report Says | CNSNews.com

Also this link from Pew Research. An American-based research group.
Ask the Expert (cont'd) - Pew Research Center
Read the question:

Q: I keep hearing different estimates being cited about how many Christians there are in Egypt. What are the facts?


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## MaidenScotland

Jamjoom said:


> -This is the issue. Christians want a religionless country. However, most muslims want an Islamic country. That is religion-based laws. not man-made laws.
> 
> -The basics of all US laws is christianity. search "is US a christian nation?" and you will see tons of debates. The basic consequence is that the US is not a non-christian nation.
> 
> - THe link you sent is from an article in a no-brand newspaper. Christians always claimed they are in the 10-15% range. However there is nothing to support that claim. Research organizations that worked in Egypt indicated they are in the 5-7% range.
> Number of Coptic Christians in Egypt Is Far Less Than Media Estimates, Report Says | CNSNews.com
> 
> Also this link from Pew Research. An American-based research group.
> Ask the Expert (cont'd) - Pew Research Center
> Read the question:
> 
> Q: I keep hearing different estimates being cited about how many Christians there are in Egypt. What are the facts?




religious based laws are in fact man made


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## Jamjoom

In Christianity they are.
In Islam ther are not.
This is the confusion.


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## MaidenScotland

Jamjoom said:


> In Christianity they are.
> In Islam ther are not.
> This is the confusion.




I think you are the one who is confused.. and for someone who is supposed to be agnostic you don't half beat the drum for Islam.


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## Jamjoom

My issues are not that with Islam. I have issues with religion in general. They are personal.
But Islam does have rules for almost everything and rules to get rules that are not there. It is actually very comprehensive. So there are no laws if you practice Islam that are man-made except for non-religious issues like rent..etc.

Christianity is different. Christianity does not actually have any laws. Jesus lived with the rules of land of the Roman Empire. There are some basic laws but thats about it. Even those rules are debatable. Like Orthodox here practice no divorce and they have text proofs for it. Other christians dont etc.


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## MaidenScotland

Jamjoom said:


> My issues are not that with Islam. I have issues with religion in general. They are personal.
> But Islam does have rules for almost everything and rules to get rules that are not there. It is actually very comprehensive. So there are no laws if you practice Islam that are man-made except for non-religious issues like rent..etc.
> 
> Christianity is different. Christianity does not actually have any laws. Jesus lived with the rules of land of the Roman Empire. There are some basic laws but thats about it. Even those rules are debatable. Like Orthodox here practice no divorce and they have text proofs for it. Other christians dont etc.



quote Christianity does not actually have any laws. then two sentences later

There are some basic laws but thats about it

as I said.. you seem confused


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## MaidenScotland

Jamjoom said:


> My issues are not that with Islam. I have issues with religion in general. They are personal.
> But Islam does have rules for almost everything and rules to get rules that are not there. It is actually very comprehensive. So there are no laws if you practice Islam that are man-made except for non-religious issues like rent..etc.
> 
> Christianity is different. Christianity does not actually have any laws. Jesus lived with the rules of land of the Roman Empire. There are some basic laws but thats about it. Even those rules are debatable. Like Orthodox here practice no divorce and they have text proofs for it. Other christians dont etc.




So why do you think Islam is not man made but Christianity is?


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## expatagogo

For someone claiming to be from the US, you seem to have missed out on the basics about government.


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## MaidenScotland

expatagogo said:


> For someone claiming to be from the US, you seem to have missed out on the basics about government.




he is confused.. after all anyone who is an atheist would simply say.. it's all rubbish, all made up.. why you would try and explain something you don't believe in is another of lifes mysteries


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## Jamjoom

Not true.
It is different. i try to understand what everyone is saying from their perspective. A lot of people just see things only from their own perspective. Just hear a christian talk about Islam or vice versa. 

@expatagogo I graduated from an ive league in the US and I worked on Medical Public Policy in the US for 2 years in Washington. SO I think I do have something to say. You can argue your way if you want rather than talking about me personally. you do not know me.

@maidenscotland Laws are usually divided into many tiers depending on how basic they are. For example, the constitution is considered the most basic principles upon which laws are built. Some people call the constitution articles: laws. It depends on who you talk to and how they define their terms. From my study of christianity and my debates with priests, I consider christianity to have some basic rules (i.e. partial constitution). But christianity does not have specific laws for specific subjects. and even the laws are not clear and there is a lack of agreement among different christians on it.


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## expatagogo

Jamjoom said:


> Not true.
> @expatagogo I graduated from an ive league in the US and I worked on Medical Public Policy in the US for 2 years in Washington. SO I think I do have something to say. You can argue your way if you want rather than talking about me personally. you do not know me.


Really now? An Ivy and public policy and nowhere along the line did anyone mention the Constitution, the four page document (including the signature page) that is the law supreme in the United States? The same document that prohibits government in religion and religion in government? 

Perhaps you should read this wiki about a former Judge, Roy Stewart Moore, because it directly refutes your argument that the US is a "christian country":

Roy Moore - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

_Roy Stewart Moore (born February 11, 1947) is an American jurist and Republican politician noted for his refusal, as the elected Chief Justice of the Alabama Supreme Court, to remove a monument of the Ten Commandments from the Alabama Judicial Building despite orders to do so from a federal judge. On November 13, 2003, the Alabama Court of the Judiciary unanimously removed Moore from his post as Chief Justice._

One would think a "christian country" would not only allow such a monument, but require it, however this is not so.

Freedom of religion, which is imbibed in the Constitution you seem to be wholly unaware of, also means freedom _from_ religion. 

I believe this is the crux of the dissatisfaction with the MB as a whole as Islam asserts there is no compulsion in religion.


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## Jamjoom

Your point is true. However, as I have explained in a previous post, there is a big difference between what the law says and how the law is practiced. There is also a big difference between the official law and what happens between closed doors.
This is because in order to apply any lawm you need an honest system. this is not the case.
For example, we know that if you steal you go to jail. The application of the law here rests on your ability to prove that someone stole. If that someone was protected, or evidence was not gathered, you cannot apply the law.

A movie like Ides of March discussed this issue, through a different case, though.


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## expatagogo

Jamjoom said:


> Your point is true. However, as I have explained in a previous post, there is a big difference between what the law says and how the law is practiced. There is also a big difference between the official law and what happens between closed doors.
> This is because in order to apply any lawm you need an honest system. this is not the case.
> For example, we know that if you steal you go to jail. The application of the law here rests on your ability to prove that someone stole. If that someone was protected, or evidence was not gathered, you cannot apply the law.
> 
> A movie like Ides of March discussed this issue, through a different case, though.


What are you talking about?


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## expatagogo

Jamjoom said:


> -This is the issue. Christians want a religionless country. However, most muslims want an Islamic country. That is religion-based laws. not man-made laws.
> 
> -The basics of all US laws is christianity. search "is US a christian nation?" and you will see tons of debates. The basic consequence is that the US is not a non-christian nation.
> 
> - THe link you sent is from an article in a no-brand newspaper. Christians always claimed they are in the 10-15% range. However there is nothing to support that claim. Research organizations that worked in Egypt indicated they are in the 5-7% range.
> Number of Coptic Christians in Egypt Is Far Less Than Media Estimates, Report Says | CNSNews.com
> 
> Also this link from Pew Research. An American-based research group.
> Ask the Expert (cont'd) - Pew Research Center
> Read the question:
> 
> Q: I keep hearing different estimates being cited about how many Christians there are in Egypt. What are the facts?


My point is this: nobody knows how many people fall into which religious identity in Egypt. The link you pointed out, from Pew, says the same thing I've been saying - nobody knows for sure.


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## hurghadapat

expatagogo said:


> What are you talking about?


God only knows.....because he doesn't seem to :confused2:


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## MaidenScotland

The debate going in here is more proof why politics and religion should never mix..


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## hurghadapat

MaidenScotland said:


> The debate going in here is more proof why politics and religion should never mix..


Imho...three things that should never be argued or debated about...religion,politics and football...only leads to arguments.


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## expatagogo

MaidenScotland said:


> The debate going in here is more proof why politics and religion should never mix..


Of course it shouldn't, which is why the framers of the Constitution, that group of guys who were largely unreligious, included this:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." -- First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States

They knew that if religion controlled the government, government would control religion.

Turkey, where Sheikhs are government employees and their sermons are supervised by the government, is an example of that.


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## MaidenScotland

hurghadapat said:


> Imho...three things that should never be argued or debated about...religion,politics and football...only leads to arguments.




As someone who comes from the west coast of Scotland which is divided by religion.. I allowed no colours in my bars. as you say it only leads to arguments.


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## Jamjoom

@expatagogo
You sent me a link before showing me christians in Egypt were 14%.
and I showed you an official research company's discussion of the issue. The whole argument was there was no official government survey so they had to rely on other statistics to reach their conclusion. They didn't say there was nothing available.

The issue with religion and politics is complicated. In history, there were many instances when the public or most of the people living at the time thought a particular idea or belief was correct. Then it turned out to be all wrong decades later. Without thinking too much, you could come up with multiple examples.

When you say "religion" does not mix with "politics", you will need to define what "religion" and what "politics." Generalizing this on everything is not politically or historically correct.


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## DeadGuy

Jamjoom said:


> Again, this is where we agree. the fundamental difference here is that Egypt is an Islamic country. It is not the same as the US or the UK. Same as Israel that you did not comment on.
> 
> If you want man-made laws of land, the US and the UK will be a good choice. and other immigration lands like canada and so on. Even thought the basics of their rules is christian.
> 
> For the person that said my count of Christians is incorrect, where do you get your information from. and yes it is incorrect because according to international organizations, christians are actually 6-8 % maximum. This is not the government statistics. If you have other information, share it with us. Regardless of the number which below 10%, and if people vote on the kind of law they want to adopt, Most people here would like to adopt Islamic law with the Christian minority being ruled in their issues by church.
> 
> Remember, when I say law that does not mean every single law will be divided; only issues related to differences. Christianity does not have a law, really. Christians always followed the law of land they live in except for some issues.
> 
> Do not compare Egypt to UK or US. It is a totally different fundamental principle. The above is where I think the country is going. Some people ask for man-made laws like US or UK. However they remain a minority. Regardless, if there is a democratic system, people can try. and they have the right to.



Of course you can't compare any "civil" country to any Arab country, in the UK and US (Which 90% of Muslims believe to be Devilish Christian countries), in those countries, Muslims (Or any other religion as a matter of fact) are allowed to live, practice their religion(s) freely, and they're allowed to preaching their religon(s) while in the Arab countries anyone that's not a Muslim is treated like sh!t, their churches/temples are attacked, and if they tried to invite anyone to a different faith the get killed 

So no, you can't compare the UK or the USA to ANY other Arab country, not just Egypt 

Also in one of your posts you're arguing about the number of Christians? Well let's assume there's just ONE Christian Egyptian citizen, what do you suggest to do with him/her?

And God made laws and human made laws? Seriously? What kinda God would allow marrying a MINOR child?!


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## Jamjoom

@DeadGuy
You are obviously an orthodox christian. I have been talking with orthodox christian for ages. The problem from my point of view is that you have isolated yourself to a corner and you share the same ideas and values. These ideas and values are not shared by the whole society.

If yo like the system of the US and UK you can go live in the US or UK. It is not hard. I know Muslims in the US. They do practice freely to an extent. What you do not know is that there is a lot of limitation on building mosques in the US, more than there are limitations on building churches in Egypt. When you take a tour in Egypt you see a lot of churches even in very significant areas. This is not the case in the US. In order to build a mosque you need to get a lot of licenses and they are very expensive and take a huge amount of time. My friend was an active member in the Islamic Society of Boston and it took them more than 5 years to get the license to build a mosque even though it was the only mosque in the area. The State also sued them because they wanted to build a minaret and it was a huge mess. So no, Muslims are not free to build mosques freely. They are free to practice of course. and I think christians in Egypt are allowed to practice as well.

Attacks on Churches are not organized. They usually happen for personal reasons (2 guys got in a fight, a Muslim violated a christian girl or vice versa..etc). The attack on Qeddeseen was orchestrated by the Minister of Interior. This is what records of official lawsuits show. People can talk and spread rumors. However, during the security issues after Jan 25th, no churches were attacked.


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## Jamjoom

There was a Florida Pastor who organized a Quran burning ceremony. And it was all over the news. Some Danish journalists drew funny pics of the Islamic prophet. Stuff like that does happen. There are alot of idiots in the world. There is a lot of hate too. This is part of life. What people need to understand is how to work together regardless of differences.

If you think you cannot do that in Egypt you can leave and migrate. Start a new life somewhere else. Lots of others will choose to stay.

The issues you raise regarding the Quran are way too old, and have been debated and discussed and answered by thousands. And like you tackle some issues that you think are weak points in others's religion they can tackle weak point in yours. and every religion is full of them. They are not actually weak points but may be issues that should not be discussed on their own but in the bigger context. WHatever your conclusion is, people just dont agree with it, and that's fine. You can have your religion and they can have theirs. But I would not throw rocks if my house is made of glass.


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## MaidenScotland

Jamjoom said:


> There was a Florida Pastor who organized a Quran burning ceremony. And it was all over the news. Some Danish journalists drew funny pics of the Islamic prophet. Stuff like that does happen. There are alot of idiots in the world. There is a lot of hate too. This is part of life. What people need to understand is how to work together regardless of differences.
> 
> If you think you cannot do that in Egypt you can leave and migrate. Start a new life somewhere else. Lots of others will choose to stay.
> 
> The issues you raise regarding the Quran are way too old, and have been debated and discussed and answered by thousands. And like you tackle some issues that you think are weak points in others's religion they can tackle weak point in yours. and every religion is full of them. They are not actually weak points but may be issues that should not be discussed on their own but in the bigger context. WHatever your conclusion is, people just dont agree with it, and that's fine. You can have your religion and they can have theirs. But I would not throw rocks if my house is made of glass.




The very fact you have said.. If you think you cannot do that in Egypt you can leave and migrate. Start a new life somewhere else. Lots of others will choose to stay. 
shows that you do not know what life is like for the average Egyptian.


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