# Minimum income required to live in spain



## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

Edit this post

Regarding the minimum income required by an EU national to obtain EU Citizen Registration 

I have just spoken to the OIC of an Extranjeria: These are the current amounts:-

A single person 370 € per month or 5,170 per year

A couple 627 per month or 8,800 per year

They are from the government’s instructions to all Extranjerias, and apply everywhere. Thus if you should have any problems with any Extranjeria quote the official figures and if necessary ask for the complaints forms 


NB Different rules apply to non EU Nationals, who will need to apply for Residencia (T I E)


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

Juan C said:


> Edit this post
> 
> Regarding the minimum income required by an EU national to obtain EU Citizen Registration
> 
> ...


Aye Nigel Farage has a lot to answer for when we become Non EU Nationals, pity we cannot sue him 
over any extra costs & extra charges involved.

:rant:


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

Williams. IMHO. Your comment has almost no relevance to the thread.


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

Juan C said:


> Williams. IMHO. Your comment has almost no relevance to the thread.


Well its a fact - we are becoming Non EU citizens are we NOT ??

With all the extra charges, red tape and conditions that involves etc etc, etc.


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

Williams2 said:


> Well its a fact - we are becoming Non EU citizens are we NOT ??
> 
> With all the extra charges, red tape and conditions that involves etc etc, etc.


The simple answer to that is no one knows what will happen,

leave, if so that will depend on if U.K. leave with an agreement and if so what that agreement amounts to, or on no agreement. 

Or U.K. could remain by cancelling Article 50, and nothing will change.

I recently attended a presentation by the British Consul. That was exactly what she said, “No one knows.”


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Juan C said:


> Edit this post
> 
> Regarding the minimum income required by an EU national to obtain EU Citizen Registration
> 
> ...


This was posted recently and is simply incorrect.

Since when did 370 x 12 = 5170 ?? Not when I did Maths.

The correct monthly figure is 431€

What they are quoting is for 14 payments but this really confuses everyone because there aren't 14 months in a year. The reason is that many salaries are paid 14 times per year (like pensions etc.)


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

The thing is Juan C, is that the figures you quoted concerning minimum income is ( to all intents
and purposes ) no longer applicable to British citizens, thinking or planning to move to Spain; 
as your figures relate to EU Citizens - now with most moves abroad taking about a year
or two, to come into fruition for the wannabe British Expat anyway. Then they will need to
abide by non EU, 3rd country citizen rules upon arrival in Spain.

If Britain had left as planned on the 29th March 2019 without a deal, then the truth is that 
non EU or what's called 3rd country rules would apply and this might still be the case on
the run upto the 31st October deadline.

So your figures of:
A single person 370 € per month or 5,170 per year
A couple 627 per month or 8,800 per year

Or whatever the true figures should be for EU citizens ?

Would seem like a dream to what will actually be expected of British citizens moving abroad 
to Spain, in their typical timescale.


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

I made the post to inform mainly U.K. nationals who are considering moving to Spain, to inform them what applies to them now

If U.K. leave then the rules will, almost certainly, change. I may then post regarding the new rules


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## Michael Kelly (May 30, 2017)

I don't say how anyone could live on such a low amount anywhere in Spain


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

Michael Kelly said:


> I don't say how anyone could live on such a low amount anywhere in Spain


Michael. That was not the point of my post. It was what is required to be able to register

Maybe you could start another thread if you want to discuss that which, IMHO would save going off thread here and possibly confusing those who need to know the requirements that I posted to help them

Regards, Juan


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Michael Kelly said:


> I don't say how anyone could live on such a low amount anywhere in Spain


That is the minimum non -contributable pension amount & yes people here do have to live on it. The same as the "exhausted all unemployment etc" so have to rely on the ex.gracia 431€/month for which you have to do voluntary work.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

gus-lopez said:


> That is the minimum non -contributable pension amount & yes people here do have to live on it. The same as the "exhausted all unemployment etc" so have to rely on the ex.gracia 431€/month for which you have to do voluntary work.


Three years back I lived for a month in Asturias on 10 Euros a day. That would leave 131 Euros for a corner of a room and access to a toilet. I mainly ate fruit and veg and while I lost weight I did feel healthier. I did subsidise with blackberries from the hedge rows and tried fishing, but no luck there (down to my lack of patience).

Of course if I lived like that I'd go deaf as I couldn't afford a hearing aid, blind as I couldn't afford glasses, toothless as I couldn't afford dentists, etc, etc, etc

If that is how I might spend those extra four years (life expectancy) if I was spanish, I'll settle for my 79 years as a Brit


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## fortrose52 (Nov 29, 2018)

My son, recently returned from working in China. Signed on the dole, waited the required 6 weeks and received his dole money yesterday. No back pay from first signig. Just under £300 per month


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

fortrose52 said:


> My son, recently returned from working in China. Signed on the dole, waited the required 6 weeks and received his dole money yesterday. No back pay from first signig. Just under £300 per month


That's interesting. Did he pay tax in the UK? And what means tested benefit can he claim? Would be good to know the details to do a comparison.

When my Spanish wife returned from the UK, after she was let go shall we say, she received squat all. And that has remained the case for more than 3 years. She'd bite your handoff for 300


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

Juan C said:


> Edit this post
> 
> Regarding the minimum income required by an EU national to obtain EU Citizen Registration
> 
> ...


Just to put things into perspective and to show what a Non EU British citizen moving to Spain
would have to prove in terms of income to be granted residence in Spain after final Brexit Day.

Work - the likelihood of finding a permanent job in Spain will become next to impossible, as
Spanish employers would have to justify why they would choose a British candidate over and
above a Spanish or other EU member state citizen candidate for the role unless your 
something like a worldwide expert in your field.
Therefore this narrows down your employment options to self employed or what Spain deem as 
Autonomo. Although if your a Pensioner or someone of Independent means, then you would go
for the Non-lucrative residence visa as described below.

Income - this being based on what Pensioners and those that are expected to
support themselves on a Non-lucrative residence visa ( that doesn't entitle you
to work in Spain ) although this income can be derived from investments, landlord
income and annuities from abroad.

Minimum income to be granted the Non-lucrative residence visa is:
For a single person €2,130 per month which works out at €25,560 per year plus
€6,390 per additional family member.

Medical insurance subscribed with a company legally entitled to operate in Spain is required.

The residence permit is usually issued for a period of 2 years, renewable, provided
that you still meet the economic requirements and you have lived at least 183 days in Spain
each year.

After 5 years holding the temporary residence permit, you will be eligible for permanent residency. 
Permanent residency will entitle you to live and work in Spain indefinitely.

Please note the figures above might have changed this year and therefore this is what I've
been able to glean so far.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Williams2 said:


> Minimum income to be granted the Non-lucrative residence visa is:
> 
> For a single person €2,130 per month which works out at €25,560 per year plus
> €6,390 per additional family member.


William that all looks great to me. Especially the employment requirements. Will Gareth Bale be available to play for my Watford???? I can think of 50 Spaniards who could replace him based on current form 

Clearly Spain wants retired Brits, who only contribute to the economy, so I can't see hard rules being applied in reality. Do you know what the lump sum amount might be as an alternative to regular income? I'm thinking many retired brits, like me, these days have flexible access to pension funds. But do not draw on this money regularly. And I guess there is a loop hole where I could make my annual income appear as anything up to the full value of the fund. 

Your research much appreciated


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

Nigele.

Sorry I did not make it clear. 

The minimum `income´ can be savings

A single person 370€ per month or 5,170€ per year, *or savings of 5,170€*

A couple 627€ per month or 8,800€ per year, *or savings of 8,800€*

NB Post Brexit, if that ever happens, and there is no special deal, will probably mean

income for single person of 27,000€ p.a. 

couple a few thousand more.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

nigele2 said:


> Clearly Spain wants retired Brits, who only contribute to the economy, so I can't see hard rules being applied in reality.


Why not? They are in the case of retired Americans, Canadians, Australians, etc. all of whom have to fulfil the requirements for non lucrative visas (and it isn't a one off process, the visa has to be renewed at certain intervals and proof of private health insurance plus meeting the financial requirements provided for each renewal).


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Juan C said:


> NB Post Brexit, if that ever happens, and there is no special deal, will probably mean
> 
> income for single person of 27,000€ p.a.
> 
> couple a few thousand more.


Juan C thanks for that. So if done on an equal basis you'd only need say 27,000 Euros of savings. And that you can artificially create. When I went for residency I moved some money into a spanish account, got a statement, and then moved it out. Seems bizarre to me.

ps: No more bizarre than 2 days ago the director of an accountancy company I used was amazed I wanted to pay tax owed from 2015/16 (owner of spanish property non-resident). He said it is very difficult for the authorities to track and thus best not pay. I find such advice to steal from the state as amazingly stupid as he found my desire to pay


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

nigele2 said:


> Juan C thanks for that. So if done on an equal basis you'd only need say 27,000 Euros of savings. And that you can artificially create. When I went for residency I moved some money into a spanish account, got a statement, and then moved it out. Seems bizarre to me.
> y



I know of someone recently who had their EU Citizen Registration cancelled after just a couple of months because it was discovered they had ´manipulated the System´ in some way. 

But in the circumstances you mention provided you still had the asset you would still qualify. You only must prove you have the asset, *could be a property, not that it is deposited in a particular account.* And if UK don´t leave, or you apply before they do, you only need to prove, an income, savings or assets of 8,800€ for a couple


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

nigele2 said:


> Juan C thanks for that. So if done on an equal basis you'd only need say 27,000 Euros of savings. And that you can artificially create. When I went for residency I moved some money into a spanish account, got a statement, and then moved it out. Seems bizarre to me.
> 
> ps: No more bizarre than 2 days ago the director of an accountancy company I used was amazed I wanted to pay tax owed from 2015/16 (owner of spanish property non-resident). He said it is very difficult for the authorities to track and thus best not pay. I find such advice to steal from the state as amazingly stupid as he found my desire to pay


Income for a single person of €27k is not equal to having savings of €27k, though. What they would be looking for would be savings or investments generating an annual income eqivalent to €27k.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Lynn R said:


> Why not? They are in the case of retired Americans, Canadians, Australians, etc. all of whom have to fulfil the requirements for non lucrative visas (and it isn't a one off process, the visa has to be renewed at certain intervals and proof of private health insurance plus meeting the financial requirements provided for each renewal).


Lynn I think it is purely a numbers game. Because of the rules and the distance there are, for example, not many retired Americans. And the number is unlikely to grow at any increased rate, Brexit of whatever flavour.

However any substantial reduction in the flow of Brits would have a nasty economic impact. And I think Spain has reacted pretty positively towards us Brits making it clear they do not want to see an exodus or less incoming flow.


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

nigele2 said:


> However any substantial reduction in the flow of Brits would have a nasty economic impact. And I think Spain has reacted pretty positively towards us Brits making it clear they do not want to see an exodus or less incoming flow.


Nigele sorry, but having lived in Spain for over 30 years, I really do not share your hopeful expectations.

If Spain really wanted to assist the Brits as you think they might, they could offer those who live here legally, automatic dual nationalty. Now that would be a real goodwill gesture.

Juan (Irish and British)


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Juan C said:


> Nigele sorry, but having lived in Spain for over 30 years, I really do not share your hopeful expectations.


So have you been notified that Spain will deport you? I haven't. (I assume you are retired). 



Juan C said:


> If Spain really wanted to assist the Brits as you think they might, they could offer those who live here legally, automatic dual nationality. Now that would be a real goodwill gesture.


Most retired people surely just want residency and access to services. Why would you want to be Spanish? 

ps: I hope they don't offer it to me!


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

Nigele “So have you been notified that Spain will deport you? I haven't. (I assume you are retired).”

You obviously did not see I have Irish nationality so I am not affected by Brexit


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Lynn R said:


> Income for a single person of €27k is not equal to having savings of €27k, though. What they would be looking for would be savings or investments generating an annual income eqivalent to €27k.


But that would be a change from the current system. Have I missed a change in the rules? Possibly. And also block some fairly rich people. Maybe I'm giving Spain too much credit.

As Juan C offered "A single person 370€ per month or 5,170€ per year, *or savings of 5,170€".* Why would the formula change? - obviously the numbers change.

But I still see no reason that Spain, under the current government, would want to shoot itself through the foot. They still are bottom of most economic EU league tables.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

nigele2 said:


> But that would be a change from the current system. Have I missed a change in the rules? Possibly. And also block some fairly rich people. Maybe I'm giving Spain too much credit.
> 
> As Juan C offered "A single person 370€ per month or 5,170€ per year, *or savings of 5,170€".* Why would the formula change? - obviously the numbers change.
> 
> But I still see no reason that Spain, under the current government, would want to shoot itself through the foot. They still are bottom of most economic EU league tables.


Of course it would be a change from the current system - because if and when Brexit finally happens, Britons will no longer be EU citizens. The easier and less financially onerous route to be able to be resident in Spain comes courtesy of our EU membership, not our British citizenship. The figures Juan C quotes are those which relate to EU citizens.

I hope some of our US or other non EU members will be able to explain what they had to prove by way of financial resources to gain a non lucrative visa. According to this, you need to show evidence of having had a sufficiently high average bank balance for at least one year before applying for the visa (click on see requirements under the heading What are the Requirements).

https://www.lequidy.com/boutique-online-legal-services/non-lucrative-visa-spain/

You have stated your opinion. Mine is that Spain could not introduce a special immigration regime purely for UK citizens. Indeed, the La Moncloa website information did say that once the UK has left the EU, UK citizens who are not already resident will be subject to the normal immigration regime for third country nationals.

The only way things could stay the same for newcomers, I believe, is if there were to be some kind of BRINO and the UK ends up staying an EEEA member which the Brexit supporters do not seem to want at all.


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

nigele2 said:


> Lynn I think it is purely a numbers game. Because of the rules and the distance there are, for example, not many retired Americans. And the number is unlikely to grow at any increased rate, Brexit of whatever flavour.
> 
> However any substantial reduction in the flow of Brits would have a nasty economic impact. And I think Spain has reacted pretty positively towards us Brits making it clear they do not want to see an exodus or less incoming flow.


If Spain were to sink so low as to treat British non EU citizen wannabe Expats retiring to Spain more
favourably for the Non Lucrative Visa, than any other non EU wannabe Expats like the Americans, 
Canadians, Australians etc; who would no doubt expect the Brits to be treated just like them when
applying for the Visa after final Brexit Day.

There would be an almighty complaint, that would no doubt end up in the courts !!

Therefore only British citizens already legally resident in Spain before final Brexit Day can expect
( or hope to expect ) to be treated the same as if the UK had never voted to leave the EU by
way of UK - EU mutual citizen rights or what's been happening in actual fact, namely Reciprocal
Agreements or bilateral agreements between the UK and Spain, in the event of a No deal
Brexit.


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

William. But post Brexit U.K. nationals would be in the same position as other non EU nationals. Unless there were a special deal. I will not be holding my breath on that one. 

No matter how annoyed brits might be I really do not think spain would be allowed by the EU to make any special concessions. One of the problems with being in the EU, countries have no say in what they prefer. Big Brother dictates


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

Juan C said:


> William. But post Brexit U.K. nationals would be in the same position as other non EU nationals. Unless there were a special deal. I will not be holding my breath on that one.
> 
> No matter how annoyed brits might be I really do not think spain would be allowed by the EU to make any special concessions. One of the problems with being in the EU, countries have no say in what they prefer. Big Brother dictates


Precisely although I don't think its quite sunk in with nigele2 yet.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

OK guys I seem to be defending Spain and the EU which is a very rare experience for me.

I'm fairly sure that none of this will be relevant anyway. And not impact us as individuales.

Enjoy.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Juan C said:


> Nigele sorry, but having lived in Spain for over 30 years, I really do not share your hopeful expectations.
> 
> If Spain really wanted to assist the Brits as you think they might, they could offer those who live here legally, automatic dual nationalty. Now that would be a real goodwill gesture.
> 
> Juan (Irish and British)


And crazy!
Nigel has a very good grasp of what's happening in Spain, now and in the past due to his personal circumstances, even if he hasn't lived here for 30 years...


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

There was quite a large community of non retired British in Spain before Spain entered the EU. perhaps the authorities turned a blind eye. Wont be good for the Spanish working in Uk either as it will be tit for tat. Doubt there will be a Brexit anyway.


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

Isobella said:


> There was quite a large community of non retired British in Spain before Spain entered the EU. perhaps the authorities turned a blind eye. Wont be good for the Spanish working in Uk either as it will be tit for tat. Doubt there will be a Brexit anyway.


Whats this to do with present day rules and regulations ??


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

There seem to be quite a few hopeful immigrants who seem to think the fact that they are British will give them some kind of post- Brexit status not available to other non- EU nationals.
The same people often claim that the Spanish economy would collapse without their huge financial contribution.
A colony of Russians has established itself near where I used to live. Bentley Continentals in that area are as common as the cheap Dacia Duster I now drive which are very popular in Estepona.
My guess is that one Russian family spends as much if not more than ten British pensioners. The same goes for the wealthy Chinese.
Add to that the fact that many Brits live ‘under the radar’ and evade Spanish taxation.
As for ‘ Brits used to live and work here before the EU’,........well, I suppose one could ignore the past thirty years of history..

Maybe some of us are under the illusion that Spain was once part of the British Empire as they seem to behave in that way, with groundless xpectations.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Isobella said:


> There was quite a large community of non retired British in Spain before Spain entered the EU. perhaps the authorities turned a blind eye. Wont be good for the Spanish working in Uk either as it will be tit for tat. Doubt there will be a Brexit anyway.


As far as I'm aware the Spanish citizens working in the UK will be in the same position as British citizens in Spain will - ie, if they're there already they will be able to stay with minimal paperwork involved to confirm their status. However, I have seen absolutely no indication that Spaniards wishing to move to the UK after the UK has left the EU and the transition period has ended, assuming there is one, will not be subject to the same new British immigration regime as all other non EU citizens are. The UK is not proposing to have different systems for different countries, are they?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Isobella said:


> There was quite a large community of non retired British in Spain before Spain entered the EU. perhaps the authorities turned a blind eye. Wont be good for the Spanish working in Uk either as it will be tit for tat. Doubt there will be a Brexit anyway.


But many were British criminals on the run and/or timeshare touts - much the same thing!


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

baldilocks said:


> But many were British criminals on the run and/or timeshare touts - much the same thing!


Yes and many ran Brit bars, shops and Estate Agencies too, However if y'all want to carry on with the negative that's ok. Plenty of British (like the Russians) are rich too and on those figures anyone on a final salary pension will have no problem.

BTW the UK GOV are spending quite a lot advertising in the Times and other newspapers informing foreigners to register and what to do. Anything official in the Spanish press?


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Isobella said:


> on those figures anyone on a final salary pension will have no problem.


That depends entirely on how many years' service the pension is based on, and what level of salary. "Anyone" on a final salary pension, even with a state pension added, certainly would not reach an income of €27k if they hadn't been in a higher than average paid position or had not spent their entire career in jobs with final salary pension schemes. From 2016 their state pensions will also be lower than the new State Pension because of the time they spent contracted out.
.
Someone who retires now on UK average earnings of just under 28k (and there are a great many public sector workers who earn less than that) might expect to receive under 14k as a maximum occupational pension if they have spent a full 40 years in the pension scheme. Add to that a state pension of 7k per year and it does not equate to €27k.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Isobella said:


> BTW the UK GOV are spending quite a lot advertising in the Times and other newspapers informing foreigners to register and what to do. Anything official in the Spanish press?


Not that I know of. On the other hand why should they? The British government is the one that's changing the rules, so it's up to the British to inform their subjects and up to the British to keep themselves up to date


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

OK then you will all be the last expat generation, aside from a few rich Brits (although most have moved on) Provided Brexit happens of course but as someone said when I mentioned it above what has that got to do with it


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

With EU Citizen Registration one can be exempt from having an actual income or savings if one owns a property in Spain. I guess if or when U.K. leave then owning or being in the position to buy a property will negate any lack of income


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

Juan C said:


> With EU Citizen Registration one can be exempt from having an actual income or savings if one owns a property in Spain. I guess if or when U.K. leave then owning or being in the position to buy a property will negate any lack of income


Which is fine if the wannabe British Expat was born during the Baby boom years of
the 1960's and saw UK house price values rocket exponentially, then they can sell and
buy a property outright in Spain.
But those born in the late 70's, 80's and 90's no doubt started to have problems getting 
on the housing ladder in the first place, what with property values getting way out
of kilter with average earnings and those that bought while Nigel Lawson was
Chancellor; found property values plummet with interest rates going upto 15 per
cent back in 1992 during the ERM crisis.
Many home owners fell into negative equity as a result of that and carried the
negative equity over to their next house, if for any reason they were forced to
sell up during this period.

Finally what hope have the UK's millenial generation got when they retire, with no doubt
the vast majority unable to get on the housing ladder in the first place.
Therefore there will be little or no capital appreciation in their case and it will be all
down to what they managed to put by in savings, even the bank of Mom and Dad would 
have little to give them; as they started feeling the pinch back in the 1990's,
particularly with Final Salary Pensions being phased out.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Isobella said:


> OK then you will all be the last expat generation, aside from a few rich Brits (although most have moved on) Provided Brexit happens of course but as someone said when I mentioned it above what has that got to do with it


 Personally, I've never been an expat. 

I'm a British woman who has made her living in Spain, who married a Spaniard and formed a family here. I'm part of Spain (whether the Spanish like it or not) and Spain is part of me. I'm not Spanish and I'm not an expat in my own definition.


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## Barriej (Jul 23, 2012)

Juan C said:


> With EU Citizen Registration one can be exempt from having an actual income or savings if one owns a property in Spain. I guess if or when U.K. leave then owning or being in the position to buy a property will negate any lack of income


So as I own a property in Spain but have not moved yet. Are you saying that I will still be able to move over and live in said property full time once the UK leaves the EU?

Not that Im going to wait that long, should be in position to move early next year.

And for my 2c I will consider myself an immigrant not an ex-pat.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Personally, I've never been an expat.
> 
> I'm a British woman who has made her living in Spain, who married a Spaniard and formed a family here. I'm part of Spain (whether the Spanish like it or not) and Spain is part of me. I'm not Spanish and I'm not an expat in my own definition.


You may not be but a lot of members are. What's in a name......


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Isobella said:


> You may not be but a lot of members are. What's in a name......


Hmmm, I wonder how many do classify themselves as expats. It's such an outdated word, and concept to me. Anyway, we've had the immigrant/ expat debate several times before so if anyone's interested, just look for it in the search as this thread has a different topic...


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

Barriej said:


> So as I own a property in Spain but have not moved yet. Are you saying that I will still be able to move over and live in said property full time once the UK leaves the EU?
> 
> Not that Im going to wait that long, should be in position to move early next year.
> 
> And for my 2c I will consider myself an immigrant not an ex-pat.


Why not, if you've got a small fortune and think 27,000 Euros a year minimum income for a Non EU, 3rd country
citizen is a mere bag o tell, then you can certainly take your time.
Better still if you win the Lottery, in the meantime you can get the 5 star treatment by applying for the
Golden Visa for Spain instead.


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## Barriej (Jul 23, 2012)

Williams2 said:


> Why not, if you've got a small fortune and think 27,000 Euros a year minimum income for a Non EU, 3rd country
> citizen is a mere bag o tell, then you can certainly take your time.
> Better still if you win the Lottery, in the meantime you can get the 5 star treatment by applying for the
> Golden Visa for Spain instead.


Well I'm not going to win the lottery as I don't do it.
Don't have a small fortune but with the UK pension changes anyone with £200k in their private plan could easily do the €27,000 a year and then put the money they don't spend back into a savings plan. As long as they were in their late 50's (like me and the wife)

Hurdles are there to be jumped over. I don't see why anyone should be given special treatment. The Uk voted to leave the EU so any of us who wish to move after Brexit can do so if they can tick all the boxes. 

Those of you who are living in the EU and did so due to previous more generous arrangements should stop being so patronising and allow those of us who may (we don't know yet what the conditions will be) wish to move out over the next few years to also enjoy the paradise you don't think we are good enough for. 

Ive spent the last 40 years fully employed, although with companies without pension schemes, so the money in my pension all came from my pocket. So I think I should be allowed to go where I choose (as long as I fulfil all the criteria) :fingers crossed:

Sorry for the slight rant.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Juan C said:


> With EU Citizen Registration one can be exempt from having an actual income or savings if one owns a property in Spain. I guess if or when U.K. leave then owning or being in the position to buy a property will negate any lack of income


But you need the income/healthcare in order to get the EU citizen registration, surely? Just because you own property as a non-resident doesn't mean you can bypass that requirement when you move here permanently.

Again, if you have evidence to the contrary, give us the link!


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

I did say. “. I guess if or when U.K. leave then owning or being in the position to buy a property will negate any lack of income“. 

I did say negate lack of income. 

Sorry not to have made it clear that would not alter other requirements, medical cover, passport, application form, etc


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Juan C said:


> I did say. “. I guess if or when U.K. leave then owning or being in the position to buy a property will negate any lack of income“.
> 
> I did say negate lack of income.
> 
> Sorry not to have made it clear that would not alter other requirements, medical cover, passport, application form, etc


OK, but it was a bit ambiguous.

At the moment, non EU citizens who purchase property above a certain value (€500,000?) can get residency via a "golden visa". I suspect this is out of reach for most British pensioners though. Most people who've done it seem to be Russians.

https://www.goldenvisas.com/spain
https://elpais.com/elpais/2018/11/26/inenglish/1543231548_578100.html


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Alcalaina said:


> OK, but it was a bit ambiguous.
> 
> At the moment, non EU citizens who purchase property above a certain value (€500,000?) can get residency via a "golden visa". I suspect this is out of reach for most British pensioners though. Most people who've done it seem to be Russians.
> 
> ...


And as far as I can see, the requirements for ordinary non lucrative visas for third country (non EU) nationals do not mention anywhere that ownership of property (or sufficient funds to purchase one) can be accepted in place of the regular income requirements stipulated. Non EU nationals who already own a property here (I know one who does, an American) would still need to apply for such a visa to be able to live here full time, if they were retired or early retired.


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

Lynn R said:


> …………. Non EU nationals who already own a property here (I know one who does, an American) would still need to apply for such a visa to be able to live here full time, if they were retired or early retired.



And I would not disagree but I was taking about income required, not other requirements

I will ask at an Extranjería and post the info.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Alcalaina said:


> OK, but it was a bit ambiguous.
> 
> At the moment, non EU citizens who purchase property above a certain value (€500,000?) can get residency via a "golden visa". I suspect this is out of reach for most British pensioners though. Most people who've done it seem to be Russians.
> 
> ...


Why do you think it would be out of the reach of most british pensioners? Many are property rich especially in the South and 500,000 would not bust them, probably leave them with a few hundred thousand in the bank too.. Also I know quite a few retired who own villas in Spain worth more.


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

Isobella said:


> Why do you think it would be out of the reach of most british pensioners? Many are property rich especially in the South and 500,000 would not bust them, probably leave them with a few hundred thousand in the bank too.. Also I know quite a few retired who own villas in Spain worth more.


As they would instantly become tax resident in Spain, and thus taxable in Spain on their worldwide income and assets, I would be astounded if anyone took up that offer.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Juan C said:


> As they would instantly become tax resident in Spain, and thus taxable in Spain on their worldwide income and assets, I would be astounded if anyone took up that offer.


How do the Russians get around it?


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## Darby Allen (Sep 22, 2014)

Juan C said:


> Williams. IMHO. Your comment has almost no relevance to the thread.


Quite so. Cameron instigated the referendum, and 17,400,000 of us voted leave.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Darby Allen said:


> Quite so. Cameron instigated the referendum, and 17,400,000 of us voted leave.


Those lightning flashes are reminiscient of SS insignia. Bad choice of avatar.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

mrypg9 said:


> Those lightning flashes are reminiscient of SS insignia. Bad choice of avatar.


No disrespect intended. My mother’s cousin died during the ill- fated Operation Market Garden. He was with First Airborn Division. Many of his pals died or were injured as Im sure you know.
I just think that badge could have been better designed.


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

Isobella said:


> How do the Russians get around it?


If they are oligarchs or in the same family as an oligarch then no doubt they are minted.


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## gairloch (Jun 24, 2011)

Juan C said:


> William. But post Brexit U.K. nationals would be in the same position as other non EU nationals. Unless there were a special deal. I will not be holding my breath on that one.
> 
> No matter how annoyed brits might be I really do not think spain would be allowed by the EU to make any special concessions. One of the problems with being in the EU, countries have no say in what they prefer. Big Brother dictates


Actually I think visas to 3rd country nationals are on a country-by-country basis. Just look at the 'golden' visa system run by several EU countries. Thus, Spain could strike a deal with the UK; of course those Brits would be 'land-locked' until they become naturalized.


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## gairloch (Jun 24, 2011)

Isobella said:


> Yes and many ran Brit bars, shops and Estate Agencies too, However if y'all want to carry on with the negative that's ok. Plenty of British (like the Russians) are rich too and on those figures anyone on a final salary pension will have no problem.
> 
> BTW the UK GOV are spending quite a lot advertising in the Times and other newspapers informing foreigners to register and what to do. Anything official in the Spanish press?


Actually, UKGov puts out a lot of email bulletins for Expats living in the EU (including Spain). If you sign up on their website they send them to you


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## gairloch (Jun 24, 2011)

...


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

gairloch said:


> Isobella said:
> 
> 
> > .........
> ...


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Williams2 said:


> If they are oligarchs or in the same family as an oligarch then no doubt they are minted.


Do read again, I was referring to paying taxes. Most Oligarchs don't go for residence in high tax countries they go for Monaco etc and live on their yachts.


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

Isobella said:


> Why do you think it would be out of the reach of most british pensioners? Many are property rich especially in the South and 500,000 would not bust them, probably leave them with a few hundred thousand in the bank too.. Also I know quite a few retired who own villas in Spain worth more.


Here we go, the north / south divide raises it's ugly head gain - like were south of Watford and filthy rich unlike
the plebs north of the great divide !!


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## Love Karma (Oct 10, 2018)

Williams2 said:


> Here we go, the north / south divide raises it's ugly head gain - like were south of Watford and filthy rich unlike
> the plebs north of the great divide !!


No divide, simply a fact of life property prices on the whole are higher in the South.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Williams2 said:


> Here we go, the north / south divide raises it's ugly head gain - like were south of Watford and filthy rich unlike
> the plebs north of the great divide !!


What on earth are you on about, you are quoting my post about oligarchs and taxes


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

Love Karma said:


> No divide, simply a fact of life property prices on the whole are higher in the South.


And therein lies the rub, how do you create an equal society in the UK when factors like the above
emphasize the great divide ?

Anyway I'm sure all those less well off Pensioners from north of Watford will be toasting the health 
of their 'we've got it made', southern brethren who can afford to retire abroad !!


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## Love Karma (Oct 10, 2018)

Williams2 said:


> And therein lies the rub, how do you create an equal society in the UK when factors like the above
> emphasize the great divide ?
> 
> _Anyway I'm sure all those less well off Pensioners from north of Watford will be toasting the health
> of their 'we've got it made', southern brethren who can afford to retire abroad !!_


Who is trying to create an equal society in the U.K? How is that even achievable? 

What a very sad and bitter statement. There are wealthy pensioners in all corners of the U.K It is you, for reasons only known to you that have chosen to use the old meaningless "North South Divide" cliche.


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## Beach buddy (Jul 7, 2018)

I would be very interested to know what the requirements are in England for Europeans wishing to stay on after Brexit. Are England asking for a minimum amount in a bank account? Do they have to wait for health care? Do they have to jump through hoops? Will the have to Register as we have had to do. Anyone know(true facts if possible)


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

Beach Buddy

It is the same for them as it is for brits. Until there is a deal or no deal, or U.K. leave or stay, no one knows about who can stay, work etc 

However medical care is different. Unlike spain, in U.K. it is and always has been, free for everyone who lives there. It is possibly free too now in spain for any one living here, although the exact conditions are a little ‘cloudy’ at present


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## Beach buddy (Jul 7, 2018)

But do they have to have minimum amounts of money in the bank, some sort of residency certificate and endless renewals?


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

Beach Buddy. You asked about after Brexit. 

At present there is no equivalent rules in U.K. to Spain’s EU Citizen Registration. 

Different countries, including those within the EU, have their own rules on many things


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## Beach buddy (Jul 7, 2018)

Just interested to see if they are all running around making sure that documentation is in order. Do they have to change driving licenses. Change their cars to British number plates etc., love to know exactly how different it is for expats in England to Expats over here in Spain.


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

Beach Buddy sorry but I do not have any more time to devote to answering your ‘what if’ type questions. However, if you have a specific question which you need answered I will do my best


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## Beach buddy (Jul 7, 2018)

Thanks for your time


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Beach buddy said:


> I would be very interested to know what the requirements are in England for Europeans wishing to stay on after Brexit. Are England asking for a minimum amount in a bank account? Do they have to wait for health care? Do they have to jump through hoops? Will the have to Register as we have had to do. Anyone know(true facts if possible)


I don't know about requirements in post Brexit UK. The rules in Spain have been in place for many years now, are for all Europeans and have nothing to do with Brexit. I believe there are similar regulations in place in France


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

Love Karma said:


> Who is trying to create an equal society in the U.K? How is that even achievable?
> 
> What a very sad and bitter statement. There are wealthy pensioners in all corners of the U.K It is you, for reasons only known to you that have chosen to use the old meaningless "North South Divide" cliche.


I'm a Socialist - I know the divide whether by class, location or deprived areas and yes inequalities do exist and we 
all know who the haves and have nots are in society !!


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## Darby Allen (Sep 22, 2014)

mrypg9 said:


> Those lightning flashes are reminiscient of SS insignia. Bad choice of avatar.


What a ridiculous thing to say; they are not remotely similar to SS runes. The flashes and the fist constitute the badge worn by Royal Air Force signals personnel.


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

Juan C said:


> Lynn R said:
> 
> 
> > …………. Non EU nationals who already own a property here (I know one who does, an American) would still need to apply for such a visa to be able to live here full time, if they were retired or early retired.
> ...


The answer is: If an EU National is applying to for EU Citizen Registration or a non EU National applying for Residencia, does not have sufficient or even any income, but owns a property in spain, then a NOTA SIMPLE (extract from the property registry office) negates the income requirement


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## Tigerlillie (Apr 7, 2015)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I don't know about requirements in post Brexit UK. The rules in Spain have been in place for many years now, are for all Europeans and have nothing to do with Brexit. *I believe there are similar regulations in place in France*


Yes PW you are correct, there is a MI requirement, it is also necessary to have health insurance before being able to apply to the national health system after 3 mths residency, however, with the bureaucracy here it can take a while to put in place so it's advisable to have at least 1 yr cover. There are some differences as in we are not required to register but in the main it's pretty similar to Spain with regards to unemployment benefits, re registering cars, driving licenses etc etc....



Beach buddy said:


> I would be very interested to know what the requirements are in England for Europeans wishing to stay on after Brexit. Are England asking for a minimum amount in a bank account? Do they have to wait for health care? Do they have to jump through hoops? Will the have to Register as we have had to do. Anyone know(true facts if possible)


Quite possibly, who knows?

I will say however, that* the UK could have required these things from EU migrants from the get go, it just chose not to* because it is easier to whinge and moan and blame those damn foreigners for its own shortcomings.


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

Juan C said:


> The answer is: If an EU National is applying to for EU Citizen Registration or a non EU National applying for Residencia, does not have sufficient or even any income, but owns a property in spain, then a NOTA SIMPLE (extract from the property registry office) negates the income requirement


No doubt the same would apply for foreign applicants who own property abroad.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Juan C said:


> The answer is: If an EU National is applying to for EU Citizen Registration or a non EU National applying for Residencia, does not have sufficient or even any income, but owns a property in spain, then a NOTA SIMPLE (extract from the property registry office) negates the income requirement


All depends where!

The rules state that this will be taken into consideration as will any credit on a credit card. However, they do NOT simply negate the need to show income or savings but it all (might) help.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Isobella said:


> Why do you think it would be out of the reach of most british pensioners? Many are property rich especially in the South and 500,000 would not bust them, probably leave them with a few hundred thousand in the bank too.. Also I know quite a few retired who own villas in Spain worth more.


You live in a different world to me.


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

snikpoh said:


> Juan C said:
> 
> 
> > All depends where!
> ...


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

Juan C said:


> snikpoh said:
> 
> 
> > Juan C said:
> ...


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Juan C said:


> the inspector in charge of the Extranjeria where I asked this morning They of course are the authority which process the applications


Do they, in the case of non EU citizens? Applications for non lucrative visas have to be made to the Spanish Consulate in the applicant's place of residence - but who actually makes the decision and scrutinises the supporting paperwork? Is it Consular staff, some central Ministerio department, or is it sent through to local Extranjerias in Spain? Once the visa is obtained, the person must then register their residence at an Extranjeria after they arrive in Spain, but I believe in Málaga province, for example, non EU citizens must register at the main Extranjeria in Málaga itself, not the local ones. Their income levels will already have been scrutinised and approved before they actually arrive in Spain to register, won't they?

If ownership of property negates the need for any income to be proved, it does make you wonder why the myriad of immigration law firms advertising their services to help people obtain non lucrative visas (amongst other visa types) don't advertise this widely (or at all, from any of the information I've seen on their websites) and advise their clients to just purchase a cheap apartment in Spain - it can't be in their interests to make the requirements sound more onerous than they need be, after all, as that would put some people off and reduce the number of fee paying clients they get.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Many of those immigrants sites are dishonest and some even scammers. Most countries have investment visas, have seen them advertised in the Caribbean. Here are the USA ones but a lot of people invested in fraudulent Co's. 

Here are your top five U.S. investor immigration options:
EB-5 Regional Center Investment. Pro: Low $500,000 U.S. payment for a green card, passive involvement. ...
EB-5 Direct Investment. Pro: Complete control of the money. ...
Inter-corporate Transferee. ...
E-2 Work Visa. ...
EB-1 Extraordinary Immigrants.

Most are similar St Kitts has one where the applicant can invest in Government bonds.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Those who are below retirement age could just open a business. I watch A new life in the Sun on channel4 and doesn't matter what they choose, B&B, teaching yoga to 4 people on the beach, opening a bar in Fuengirola, a Gite in France, they are doing a roaring trade


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Juan C said:


> OK. I accept. You know better than the inspector in charge of the Extranjeria where I asked this morning They of course are the authority which process the applications




I don't know why you are being so aggressive when I am merely pointing out what the law states.

I understand each extranjeria have their own interpretation of the rules/laws and yours is clearly the way you posted. Ours, for example, will ONLY consider income and/or savings. They will NOT take property into account even though they should.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

On the subject of property, do I remember something about a "golden visa" which required the incomer to have bought a property in excess of 500k €? Is that, perhaps confusing the issue?


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

This post has gone way off the original post which was: -

“Regarding the minimum income required by an EU national to obtain EU Citizen Registration “


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> On the subject of property, do I remember something about a "golden visa" which required the incomer to have bought a property in excess of 500k €? Is that, perhaps confusing the issue?


Yes, I mentioned it earlier. It's a short cut to obtaining residency if you've got loads of money (or are one of Isobella's friends ).


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Alcalaina said:


> Yes, I mentioned it earlier. It's a short cut to obtaining residency if you've got loads of money (or are one of Isobella's friends ).


Why the sarcasm.? there are xxx thousands of villas on the Costas valued over 500,000 and the majority are owned by British.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Isobella said:


> Why the sarcasm.? there are xxx thousands of villas on the Costas valued over 500,000 and the majority are owned by British.


info source?


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

baldilocks said:


> info source?


Well anyone who knows the coast well could guestimate in thousands. Lots of urbanisations with costly places. Also Viva has 2692 villas for sale over 550 euro, then there are those not on sale!

In the Guardian. 

Pensions schemes covering the NHS, the civil service and the teaching profession were paying six-figure incomes last year to 375 retirees, up from 117 in 2010. Those in receipt of pensions higher than the UK’s average annual salary of about £28,600 also increased by 46% – up from 78,000 in 2010/11 to 115,000 in 2017/18.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/may/12/public-sector-pensions-100k-rise-threefold


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Isobella said:


> Well anyone who knows the coast well could guestimate in thousands. Lots of urbanisations with costly places. Also Viva has 2692 villas for sale over 550 euro, then there are those not on sale!


But you said that the majority were owned by Brits - info source?


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## Barriej (Jul 23, 2012)

snikpoh said:


> I don't know why you are being so aggressive when I am merely pointing out what the law states.
> 
> I understand each extranjeria have their own interpretation of the rules/laws and yours is clearly the way you posted. Ours, for example, will ONLY consider income and/or savings. They will NOT take property into account even though they should.


And I agree, our lawyer said that the office in Benidorm was quite happy for you to provide the deeds to a property and have the minimum in savings. They have been helping people with residence for years. 

Not quite what the 'law' says but I've learned this so far about Spanish rules and paperwork.

"take 3 of everything you can, even pictures of your cat. And it will still depend on who you see, what day of the week it is, what they had for lunch and how much you smile" 

If this thread is still ongoing in March next year I will tell you exactly what we were asked for.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

baldilocks said:


> But you said that the majority were owned by Brits - info source?


Ask any agent, has also been in Diario Sur many times that property sales are led by the british. I am sure everyone has read it by now. There are percentages out there somewhere but I aint going to look for them, I am busy...Ok I fell for it, one of many if you use your google finger
https://www.idealista.com/en/news/p...s-are-still-big-pull-expats-even-after-brexit


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Isobella said:


> Pensions schemes covering the NHS, the civil service and the teaching profession were paying six-figure incomes last year to 375 retirees, up from 117 in 2010.


What the article doesn't tell us is that there are 1.5 million employees in the NHS, 332,800 in the Civil Service and 451,900 FTE teachers employed in state schools in the UK. 375 retirees on that kind of pension is a vanishingly small percentage. 0.016% in fact.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Isobella said:


> Ask any agent, has also been in Diario Sur many times that property sales are led by the british. I am sure everyone has read it by now. There are percentages out there somewhere but I aint going to look for them, I am busy...Ok I fell for it, one of many if you use your google finger
> https://www.idealista.com/en/news/p...s-are-still-big-pull-expats-even-after-brexit


OK using your evidence:


> 44% of the owners of second homes located in Spain are expats and the coastal regions (Costa Blanca, Costa del Sol and the Balearic Islands) have become their favourite places to invest in Spanish property.
> 
> Zooming in on the Costa Blanca, the number of homes sold to non-Spaniards in the province of Alicante in the second quarter of 2018 rises to 6,352, according to the Valencian College of Notaries, 15% more than in the same period last year. The British lead the way for the most amount of property purchases on the Costa Blanca, followed by Swedes, Belgians, Germans, French, Norwegians, Russians and Dutch.


Note only 44% of *second homes* are owned by [all] expats not just Brits who are very far from the only ones when you consider the other 'foreign' owners. Your argument that the majority are owned by Brits is totally without foundation and, in any case, there is no mention of properties over 500k


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

I have a long association with the Costa del sol and can assure you the majority of owners are British. No mention of prices but there are thousands for sale at that price and over. Maybe you should get out of your comfort zone and take a look around. Anyway can't do with flat earthers, my last post on the subject. I really couldn't give a damn....or should that be damm


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Isobella said:


> I have a long association with the Costa del sol and can assure you the majority of owners are British. No mention of prices but there are thousands for sale at that price and over. Maybe you should get out of your comfort zone and take a look around. Anyway can't do with flat earthers, my last post on the subject. I really couldn't give a damn....or should that be damm


No it should be "dam" a small Indian coin of very little worth - it is equivalent to "I don't give a fig" i.e. "it matters not one whit."


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## Darby Allen (Sep 22, 2014)

mrypg9 said:


> No disrespect intended. My mother’s cousin died during the ill- fated Operation Market Garden. He was with First Airborn Division. Many of his pals died or were injured as Im sure you know.
> I just think that badge could have been better designed.


I don't see how. As I stated, the fist and sparks constitute the badge worn by RAF signals personnel. It was instituted on the 19th of September 1918, some years before the SS was raised. Their insignia is based on the letters SS, not on lightning flashes.
This particular badge was designed as a blazer badge for the very small number of us who, para trained, served on 16 Parachute Brigade in the late 60s/early 70s.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> OK using your evidence:
> 
> 
> Note only 44% of *second homes* are owned by [all] expats not just Brits who are very far from the only ones when you consider the other 'foreign' owners. Your argument that the majority are owned by Brits is totally without foundation and, in any case, there is no mention of properties over 500k


This all started because we were talking about Brits buying properties over €500k in order to get residency after Brexit - the Golden Visa scheme.

I still think it's very unlikely that the majority of Brits planning to retire to Spain would have that sort of money. Maybe a few, but they would most likely meet the financial requirements for non-EU residency anyway.

I also think it's unlikely that more than half the properties on the Costas worth more than half a million euros are owned by Brits. I've also googled for stats and can't find anything to back that up.

So let's move on, shall we?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> So let's move on, shall we?


Agreed. BUT if anyone is going to make a statement as a fact, then it has to be verifiable - we aren't part of Donald Trump's figments of imagination.


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