# Title Deed 'held'



## DED (Feb 24, 2013)

Could members advise me...I need local knowledge &#55357;&#56836;
Relatives appear to be telling me someone local holds their title deeds in exchange 
For a loan (cash) they received. Is this normal?
Now they say he wants more than 3 times the original amount as it was 6 years ago.
No contract on interest rate or agreement was issued....just seems to be verbal agreement & then they make up a figure to settle.
Is this common practice?

I also suspect if expat gets involved they will increase price.

Can you not sell without original title deed...I mean can you not get another copy?

Thoughts, please


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## DED (Feb 24, 2013)

DED said:


> Could members advise me...I need local knowledge ��
> Relatives appear to be telling me someone local holds their title deeds in exchange
> For a loan (cash) they received. Is this normal?
> Now they say he wants more than 3 times the original amount as it was 6 years ago.
> ...


I read you must have title deed and bill of sale.....would that be the case if house and ownership is very old?


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## fmartin_gila (May 15, 2011)

You would be better off confering with a Philippine Lawyer who is familiar with real estate. The way land is passed from generation to generation and all the confusing details dictate that you do. There are quite a few families here living on land they are not even sure whom might be the owner, some long dead and some as OFW's somewhere.

We bought a lot almost two years ago and have already built a house on it and have been residing in the house for 6 months or so and now another detail surfaces to be cleared up so the title will be clear and subsequently transferred to us so that we may be issued a building permit to build said house we are already living in.

As I said - find a Philippine Lawyer conversant with all the real estate workarounds.

Fred


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## JRB__NW (Apr 8, 2015)

Sounds like title was "held" similar to the way a lien is filed against property and recorded in a developed country - as a way to secure their interest in being repaid. Using the rule of 72, if the amount to be repaid over 6 years was doubled, that would equate to 12% interest. Close to the norm here of 10% on new home real estate transactions. If it was tripled.. well then they are charging roughly 20% interest. That's pretty high but not surprising if it was from a local lender. Filipinos often pay a lot to borrow if they can't get it from family or friends.


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## DED (Feb 24, 2013)

fmartin_gila said:


> You would be better off confering with a Philippine Lawyer who is familiar with real estate. The way land is passed from generation to generation and all the confusing details dictate that you do. There are quite a few families here living on land they are not even sure whom might be the owner, some long dead and some as OFW's somewhere.
> 
> We bought a lot almost two years ago and have already built a house on it and have been residing in the house for 6 months or so and now another detail surfaces to be cleared up so the title will be clear and subsequently transferred to us so that we may be issued a building permit to build said house we are already living in.
> 
> ...


Thanks Fred, for your reply ....which is interesting & frightening!
All seems bizarre .....no set rules
Any idea of costs if lawyer instructed to look at title deeds
& how do you determine one conversant with real estate?


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## fmartin_gila (May 15, 2011)

DED said:


> All seems bizarre .....no set rules
> Any idea of costs if lawyer instructed to look at title deeds
> & how do you determine one conversant with real estate?


Yes there are rules, but it seems as if most here work around them in order to gain personally. 

We bought half of a 259 SqM lot from a family here. A nephew acting as Lawyer coordinated everything, supposedly to complete all details concerning the sale & transfer. As time went on, I made monthly payments by depositing money into a bank account set up for this purpose. A few months ago we found out that he had not been disbursing the funds to the family members as was agreed and he had not even started to do any of the legal requirements associated with this transaction. Now he has closed the account and has disappeared with all the funds of the family and we have no legal ground to stand on. Luckily, the one family member who lives near us is not very educated but is very straight and has been an acquaintance of my wife for about 40 years and he is being very upstanding about all of it so now we are all working in a concerted manner to settle all this. We are creating some workarounds using Affidavits to compensate for the fact that the title is still registered to some people who have long since passed and can no longer sign to a transfer of title. Seems to be a long and hard path to take, but eventually hoping it will work out. I have approximately 2 Million Pesos in this and would sure hate to have to walk away, but if it comes down to it, the Foreigner will always come out on the losing end.

Seems a shame that a family member would do such a thing but seems to be a way of life here. Needless to say, he has been disowned by all his family as he not only cheated the family members but also shamed them by being crooked. They have threatened to spill his blood if he should ever show his face again.

As to finding a knowledgeable Lawyer, about all I can recommend is to talk to several in the area where the property is and explain your situation and see what can be done. We are working hand-in-hand with one who fully understands the situation and is very confidant it will all come clean at the end. The wife negotiated a set amount to be paid when everything is completed and so far I have only paid a retainer with the remainder to be paid at completion.. 

Fred


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## JShannon (Jan 28, 2014)

Hi Fred,

I don't want to add to the grief you have with your situation but another thing you should be aware of. We found out when we purchased our land that in order for a deed to change hands the estate taxes of the person whose name is currently on the deed, if they are deceased, has to be paid.

The normal way, we would think anyways, would be for the the family members who inherited the land to pay those taxes. We were not aware that the estate taxes for the husband, who is deceased, was not paid by the wife. She didn't know it had to be done.

To make a long story short, we ended up paying the estate taxes ourselves, the wife was giving us the run around for 6 months or so, not answering phone or texts, she's in Manila, were in Antique. I just wanted to get it done and over with.

Now, just about 2 years later we are still waiting for the deed to be issued. Was told 6 months ago that we could pay the "Express fee" and have it issued in a week, we declined to do that.

Jerry


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## pijoe (Jul 21, 2015)

DED said:


> Could members advise me...I need local knowledge ��
> Relatives appear to be telling me someone local holds their title deeds in exchange
> For a loan (cash) they received. Is this normal?
> Now they say he wants more than 3 times the original amount as it was 6 years ago.
> ...


I would start by making a trip to your provisional capitol. It would help to find out who the Chief Register of Deeds is. In Zambales it is a lawyer who is a public employee of the housing authority. Even now nothing is computerized so we waited while a secretary brought us the box that contained all the paperwork pertaining to the land that my wife and I planned to purchase. The original survey was from 1917, done by the Army Corps. of Engineers after the Spanish American war. This was good news for us because we were buying from the original owners daughter, who had inherited legally and had paid the property taxes. This is nearly unheard of, but it is the only type of land my wife and I will buy. The contents of the box should tell you what is up with the land. I would request a notarized inventory of the title/deed, leins, ect. This is as close to the truth as your going to get as to the actual state of ownership...Next up is the local situation. Holding property, ie... loaning cash against property from one local to another is legal and common. Many people lose their land that way. Without a written agreement it is not legal. If it were me I would start at the barangay level and try to negotiate a settlement where the person got their money back plus some interest whether there was a written agreement or not. At least then it is less likely that someone gets stabbed over it after 5 Redhorses. In my opinion you should try to settle the "lien" whether it is legal or not, just to retain the family's standing in the neighborhood. In my opinion lawyers in the Philippines are a waste of time in these situations as much more depends on how the matter is presented so that no one loses face or appears to be wronged or humiliated. Meet with the parties involved first, then take it to the barangay level if you have to. I would be interested in who is on the deed at the provincial capitol, whether they are still alive or not, and if not who their heirs are. It could be a giant waste of time in the long run to even mess with this particular piece of land. Good luck!


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## fmartin_gila (May 15, 2011)

JShannon said:


> Hi Fred,
> 
> I don't want to add to the grief you have with your situation but another thing you should be aware of. We found out when we purchased our land that in order for a deed to change hands the estate taxes of the person whose name is currently on the deed, if they are deceased, has to be paid.
> 
> Jerry


We did know about that and I am holding back at this point enough to cover. My Asawa used to do real estate quite a few years ago so she knows about most of these things. What we didn't figure into the equation was what this particular family member would do to the rest of his family.

Hope your situation comes to a happy ending as I expect ours to come to that point too. 

If I remember right you mentioned in some past post that you lived in San Jose de Buenacista and come to Iloilo occasionally. Let me know when you are headed this way and maybe we could meet up for lunch or such.

Fred


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## JShannon (Jan 28, 2014)

Sent you a PM.


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## DED (Feb 24, 2013)

JRB__NW said:


> Sounds like title was "held" similar to the way a lien is filed against property and recorded in a developed country - as a way to secure their interest in being repaid. Using the rule of 72, if the amount to be repaid over 6 years was doubled, that would equate to 12% interest. Close to the norm here of 10% on new home real estate transactions. If it was tripled.. well then they are charging roughly 20% interest. That's pretty high but not surprising if it was from a local lender. Filipinos often pay a lot to borrow if they can't get it from family or friends.


What should you (or can do) if interest rate is higher than 12%?


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## DED (Feb 24, 2013)

JShannon said:


> Sent you a PM.


Sorry, I did not receive pm


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## DED (Feb 24, 2013)

Ok, so I know they seem to be able to charge what ever interest they want without contract!!
Where do you go to find out if the title deed is registered and to find out if their are any outstanding estate taxes due?
Is estate taxes an annual charge? & how is it worked out
Is their any other annual charges for holding / buying land?


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## fmartin_gila (May 15, 2011)

DED said:


> Ok, so I know they seem to be able to charge what ever interest they want without contract!!
> Where do you go to find out if the title deed is registered and to find out if their are any outstanding estate taxes due?
> Is estate taxes an annual charge? & how is it worked out
> Is their any other annual charges for holding / buying land?


There is no limit to the rate the local "loan Sharks" can charge, whatever they can get by with. 
You will have to go to "Registry of DeedS" office to find out about the registery situation.
Yes, there is an Annual tax on real estate which has to be paid besides the estate tax. One party, either Buyer or Seller, will also have to pay Capital Gains Tax at transfer too. 

jshannon did send PM to me regarding our meet up in Iloilo.

Fred


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## DED (Feb 24, 2013)

*How is property taxed worked out?*



fmartin_gila said:


> There is no limit to the rate the local "loan Sharks" can charge, whatever they can get by with.
> You will have to go to "Registry of DeedS" office to find out about the registery situation.
> Yes, there is an Annual tax on real estate which has to be paid besides the estate tax. One party, either Buyer or Seller, will also have to pay Capital Gains Tax at transfer too.
> 
> ...


Can anyone quantify these taxes...is a fixed fee or percentage?
How is annual estate tax worked out?
How is the estate tax worked out?
How is the capital gains tax worked out if you buy a part of a family plot?


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## Hey_Joe (Sep 13, 2016)

DED said:


> Could members advise me...I need local knowledge ��
> Relatives appear to be telling me someone local holds their title deeds in exchange
> For a loan (cash) they received. Is this normal?


Yes, it's called Pag sangla ng Lupa. Be careful though, it could be a scam to get you to sympathize & pay the same as fake surgeries needed, etc.

Have your relatives watch and explain Attorney Mark Tolentino's video on pawning land. He has other interesting videos as well with free advice. 







DED said:


> Now they say he wants more than 3 times the original amount as it was 6 years ago.
> No contract on interest rate or agreement was issued....just seems to be verbal agreement & then they make up a figure to settle.
> Is this common practice?


Telling you there is no documentation that you can review raises a red flag don't you think? They could be scamming you for cash. Some type of written agreement usually is made.

If it's true, visit some local real estate agents and ask what attorneys they use or would recommend. They will have to go try and settle it at the barangay level 3 times, then if not settled, barangay will issue a letter so they can go to court.



DED said:


> I also suspect if expat gets involved they will increase price.


It already has, they know you exist from local gossip and increased it 3 times.



DED said:


> Can you not sell without original title deed...I mean can you not get another copy?


Yes, go to the register of deeds and get a new certified copy. Their copy and records will show if there is a pawn against the title.


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## fmartin_gila (May 15, 2011)

DED said:


> Can anyone quantify these taxes...is a fixed fee or percentage?
> How is annual estate tax worked out?
> How is the estate tax worked out?
> How is the capital gains tax worked out if you buy a part of a family plot?


I'm in the middle of thistype mess right now and should have some kind of an answer in a couple weeks.

Fred


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## Hey_Joe (Sep 13, 2016)

DED said:


> Can anyone quantify these taxes...is a fixed fee or percentage?
> How is annual estate tax worked out?
> How is the estate tax worked out?
> How is the capital gains tax worked out if you buy a part of a family plot?


PHILIPPINE LAWS, STATUTES AND CODES - CHAN ROBLES VIRTUAL LAW LIBRARY


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## DED (Feb 24, 2013)

Hey_Joe said:


> Yes, it's called Pag sangla ng Lupa. Be careful though, it could be a scam to get you to sympathize & pay the same as fake surgeries needed, etc.
> 
> Have your relatives watch and explain Attorney Mark Tolentino's video on pawning land. He has other interesting videos as well with free advice.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18RQX8cBFGY
> ...



Hey_Joe....thank you for your replies (appreciated)
I will get video translated & read some of these rules
Just cannot get my head round these taxes and pawn charges but with your notes and Fred's comments, it is becoming a bit clearer


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## JShannon (Jan 28, 2014)

fmartin_gila said:


> We did know about that and I am holding back at this point enough to cover. My Asawa used to do real estate quite a few years ago so she knows about most of these things. What we didn't figure into the equation was what this particular family member would do to the rest of his family.
> 
> Hope your situation comes to a happy ending as I expect ours to come to that point too.
> 
> ...


Hi Fred, Seems like I can't send you a PM. Wednesday is good. Send me a PM with your mobile #.


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## fmartin_gila (May 15, 2011)

JShannon said:


> Hi Fred, Seems like I can't send you a PM. Wednesday is good. Send me a PM with your mobile #.


Jerry, 

Got both your messages when I turned on my puter this morning.

Fred.


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## Scott E (Jun 1, 2015)

DED said:


> Could members advise me...I need local knowledge ��
> Relatives appear to be telling me someone local holds their title deeds in exchange
> For a loan (cash) they received. Is this normal?
> Now they say he wants more than 3 times the original amount as it was 6 years ago.
> ...


YES it can be a Normal Philippines situation ,, and I would stay clear of it even if it is Family as it could be their scam also "Hopefully not" ,, You may get another title from the Registry of Deeds or inquire to see if there is an annotation regarding any "Loans" ,, Banks require that annotation ,, There are people who do loans like this and even a Post Dated Check will do (with the amount of Loan given) ,, but if there is "No Repayment" That Loaner person can Petition to yu too court for something called "Estafa"


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## DED (Feb 24, 2013)

Thank you Hey Joe for direct answers
& yes Fred please keep me informed and hope your problems clear

Now my latest...
I have asked for a family member to go and get copy of title deed thus we can see if there is any loan marked against it
However usual twist...the title deed is in their late grandfathers name although their grandmother
Does appear to be paying the local property taxes....but she is the one who took the loan.


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## Hey_Joe (Sep 13, 2016)

DED said:


> Thank you Hey Joe for direct answers
> & yes Fred please keep me informed and hope your problems clear
> 
> Now my latest...
> ...


You haven't mention why you are getting involved. 

I'm guessing the wife mentioned the situation to you and you are attempting to fix their problem. If you decide to pay off Granny's loan, as stipulation, require the title to be willed to your spouse when granny dies. They win, but more importantly you and your spouse win.


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## DED (Feb 24, 2013)

Yes, your just about spot on
I stepped in thinking it was simple & just wanted the title deed to be in hands of family not third party...well I am learning quick .... nothing in truth is simple!
I have not opened discussions on will (not my intention) but I know there are problems there
As their are four grandchildren and granny only wants to leave to 2 of them 
I am not looking for any financial gain


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## Scott E (Jun 1, 2015)

DED said:


> Yes, your just about spot on
> I stepped in thinking it was simple & just wanted the title deed to be in hands of family not third party...well I am learning quick .... nothing in truth is simple!
> I have not opened discussions on will (not my intention) but I know there are problems there
> As their are four grandchildren and granny only wants to leave to 2 of them
> I am not looking for any financial gain


Find out who the "Loaner Guy" is ,, then hopefully you are friends with a Brngy official you could get some info about him and the local dealings and such ,, But if he does have the Deed "in his possession" somebody is going to have to Pay !!
My guess is, they are all lookin at You !! Quite Frankly, Unless you have a genuine interest in the property, I would tell them all, it is not in your best interest to become involved. I "think" the Law here is that the siblings all get an equal portion and then they hash it out ,, it is a customary thing to them !!


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## Rebaqshratz (May 15, 2016)

Always important to research the land before buying. We got stuck with some fees the previous owner was in arrears for. Also neighbor's horror story when land was transferred with a handshake. New owner was very proud with the "deal" he made until he found out the seller did not own the land.

Usury rates are the standard in the Philippines. Paying in advance to a builder can be tricky too...he has your money and you have squat. Best to let the Filipina in your life make the deal but only after due diligence.

Wonder if there is any "paper work" on your relatives agreement for the loan?


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## DED (Feb 24, 2013)

Thanks everyone..I am enjoying your comments

Their is No paperwork with loan
Just seems to have exchanged title deed for money


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## fmartin_gila (May 15, 2011)

A bit off subject, but this needs to be interjected at this point.

They do have different ways of doing things here, thats for sure. Here is a conversation my Asawa & I had about a year & a half ago concerning a house she owns and rents out.
Remie: We need to buy a new well cover at the rental house.
Fred: Why is that?
Remie:The old one got lost.
Fred:How can you lose a 400 lb concrete well cover.
Remie: It is just gone.
Fred: It didn't just walk away, it must have been stolen.
Remie: Yea, that is how it got lost someone took it.

Guess it is just a different outlook on things.

Fred


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## Asian Spirit (Mar 1, 2010)

fmartin_gila said:


> A bit off subject, but this needs to be interjected at this point.
> 
> They do have different ways of doing things here, thats for sure. Here is a conversation my Asawa & I had about a year & a half ago concerning a house she owns and rents out.
> Remie: We need to buy a new well cover at the rental house.
> ...


Fred, I just got home from a long - hot ride on the motor and this post gave me the good laugh I needed. A 400lb cement well cover getting lost. That is a good one and yep, same thinking at my house too.......


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## esv1226 (Mar 13, 2014)

Yes, do your own research -
A scam I've heard -
A Filipino American bought a house lot with a title deed and built their house on it. They lived there but the following summer they had a visit from another Balikbayan who said the property was hers and had the papers to prove it. It turned out that the deed title they paid for was fake. 
I will let you all know what the outcome ...


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## DED (Feb 24, 2013)

esv1226 said:


> Yes, do your own research -
> A scam I've heard -
> A Filipino American bought a house lot with a title deed and built their house on it. They lived there but the following summer they had a visit from another Balikbayan who said the property was hers and had the papers to prove it. It turned out that the deed title they paid for was fake.
> I will let you all know what the outcome ...



I am not concerned it is a scam..i am 100% sure ------ it is just a family 'mess'


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## Gary D (Oct 28, 2013)

DED said:


> I am not concerned it is a scam..i am 100% sure ------ it is just a family 'mess'


Everybody in the Philippines has and angle, even family. Never take your eye off the ball. We still haven't sorted the family land mess due to members trying to scam cheat and lie.


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## fmartin_gila (May 15, 2011)

That is what our mess is too, created by one of the family against the other members of the family we bought the lot from.

Fred


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## DED (Feb 24, 2013)

Update.....from my side
I have now paid off the 'robber' who was holding the title deeds 

Now we move to next stage....advice again please
So here is sinario 
The grand parent who owns plot want to to put two family members on her title deed so that they jointly stay when she passes away...now the twists
Her husband (now deceased ) never put here name on deed and her name was spelt wrong on her marriage certificate.....although she has paid the local taxes...she also does not have will
So members helped needed again
Where should they start and likely expenses reqd and any idea of time frame.???


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## Hey_Joe (Sep 13, 2016)

DED said:


> Update.....from my side
> I have now paid off the 'robber' who was holding the title deeds
> 
> Now we move to next stage....advice again please
> ...



Now that the alleged original has been returned, take the Land Title Deed to The Register of Deeds where they live and compare it to what the register of Deeds has on Record to ensure all details are factually the same without error. *Do this to ensure you are not being scammed.*

Obtain her copy of Marriage Certificate and husbands Death certificate. Register of deeds will need to see these.

Do an Affidavit of name correction on marriage certificate. Instructions here.
https://psa.gov.ph/civilregistration/problems-and-solutions/marriage-certificate

Have the Grandparent create a will.

Once all those items are finished, On The original Philippine land title, have the Recorder of Deeds add the marriage, husbands death, correction of name on marriage certificate, the will designating the 2 family members in the memorandum of encumbrances section of the land title. The recorder of deeds will then issue the updated land title.

Total cost? Just a "guess", less than 5,000 pesos for all but it depends where they live and what the Attorney's cost is. You will need an Attorney to do the will and the Affidavit of name correction.


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## Gary D (Oct 28, 2013)

Hey_Joe said:


> Now that the alleged original has been returned, take the Land Title Deed to The Register of Deeds where they live and compare it to what the register of Deeds has on Record to ensure all details are factually the same without error. *Do this to ensure you are not being scammed.*
> 
> Obtain her copy of Marriage Certificate and husbands Death certificate. Register of deeds will need to see these.
> 
> ...


There will also be all the inheritance tax etc.


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## Hey_Joe (Sep 13, 2016)

Gary D said:


> There will also be all the inheritance tax etc.


There "will not" be an inheritance tax. Can you imagine the uprising if a spouse was required to pay an inheritance tax every time a spouse died in The Philippines?

In this case, they both failed to ensure the marriage was documented on the memorandum of encumbrances on the land title. She won't be penalized for this. 

Estate Tax - Bureau of Internal Revenue


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## DED (Feb 24, 2013)

Hey_Joe said:


> Now that the alleged original has been returned, take the Land Title Deed to The Register of Deeds where they live and compare it to what the register of Deeds has on Record to ensure all details are factually the same without error. *Do this to ensure you are not being scammed.*
> 
> Obtain her copy of Marriage Certificate and husbands Death certificate. Register of deeds will need to see these.
> 
> ...


Thank you (hey Joe) again for the valuable info


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## DED (Feb 24, 2013)

Update
Change of name on marriage certificate completed...(quickly which was a pleasant surprise)
so stage one finished..onto to the next stage
Thank you


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