# Paper tax returns



## DC12345

Question related declaring income in France now that it's tax season. I noticed the below deadlines - what is the benefit of doing postal returns when the deadline is so much earlier than doing online? Any reason why one should do the postal return by May 19??? 

*19 May:* deadline for postal returns
*25 May: *online deadline for _départements_ 1–19 and those living outside of France
*31 May:* online deadline for _départements_ 20–54
*7 June: *online deadline for _départements_ 50–101 and those living in Overseas France


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## bhamham

If you are a first time filer than you have to do it by post. That's the way I understand it.


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## EuroTrash

bhamham said:


> If you are a first time filer than you have to do it by post. That's the way I understand it.


Apparently you do. If you try to declare online, all that happens is you get a message saying that since this is your first time declaring, you must submit a paper declaration.
And you get the same message if you've submitted upteen declarations in the past, but you didn't submit one last year.


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## BackinFrance

If you don't have a French tax file number you have to make a paper declaration. If you do have one, don't assume that you can declare online. Try to open your declaration online now. If it won't let you do so, then you will have to make a paper declaration.


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## EuroTrash

BackinFrance said:


> Try to open your declaration online now. If it won't let you do so, then you will have to make a paper declaration.


But if that's the case, make sure you write your n° fiscal on the form so's you don't get issued with a new one.
That is what the tax people stressed to me.


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## BackinFrance

EuroTrash said:


> Apparently you do. If you try to declare online, all that happens is you get a message saying that since this is your first time declaring, you must submit a paper declaration.
> And you get the same message if you've submitted upteen declarations in the past, but you didn't submit one last year.


There are in fact various reasons why you might drop out of the system, such as even after you receive your avis they decide that there was something wrong with your declaration and even if it made no difference to tax owing and they know that you just missed checking a box. Happened to me and I couldn't make the next declaration until I fixed it AND they had approved it which meant I couldn't declare online for the subsequent year and in fact going in and working through it all with them was the only way to fix everything in a timely manner.


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## Bevdeforges

DC12345 said:


> what is the benefit of doing postal returns when the deadline is so much earlier than doing online?


Basically everyone is required to do their returns online, unless it's a first return in the system. There are a few exceptions for those who really, really, really don't have access to the Internet for whatever reason - but they need those various fiscal numbers in order to process the declarations in the system. Combination of "motivating" folks to go online and giving the tax office workers a chance to set things up before the bulk of the online returns come in. But they are deadly serious about pushing everyone to submit their declarations online.


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## EuroTrash

Bevdeforges said:


> But they are deadly serious about pushing everyone to submit their declarations online.


And here I am whimpering to please please please be allowed to submit online, but the computer he say NON.


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## Bevdeforges

EuroTrash said:


> And here I am whimpering to please please please be allowed to submit online, but the computer he say NON.


For the "pros" they didn't even give the option to file on paper any more when they made the big conversion several years back. (Oh yes, I remember it well.) There were fines for filing by paper for the first couple of years. And the toughest part was that they only sent "reminders" of due dates via your online account with the Fisc, so if you didn't check that regularly, it was easy to simply blow by a date altogether. (Ask me how I know this.... )


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## DC12345

So based on the comments here (thank you btw) its clear that I need to paper file as this will be my first year and I don't have a fiscal numero. But the issue is that my US accountant needs more time to file my US tax return so it might not be ready by May 19 (the due date for paper return in France). So follow-up questions: 
-- Do I need my US tax return to be complete for me to file my French tax return? 
-- Can I paper file past May 19 (and pay some penalty) or not possible at all? 
-- If not possible, what is the consequence (for someone who was in France only for ~3 months in 2021)? (eg will it impact my long stay Visa renewal?)
Sorry for so many questions.


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## EuroTrash

Why would you need your US tax return to be complete before you file your French return? The UK tax year is April-April so it's not possible to synch the returns in the two countries but that doesn't matter. They are 2 separate exercises.
I believe the penalty for filing late is a percentage of the tax due. But it doesn't seem a great way to start your relationship with the fisc...


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## DC12345

EuroTrash said:


> Why would you need your US tax return to be complete before you file your French return? The UK tax year is April-April so it's not possible to synch the returns in the two countries but that doesn't matter. They are 2 separate exercises.
> I believe the penalty for filing late is a percentage of the tax due. But it doesn't seem a great way to start your relationship with the fisc...


Got it. But if you are declaring income from outside of France, wouldn't the FISC want to check that to make sure you are putting in the correct #s? How would they verify that??


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## EuroTrash

DC12345 said:


> Got it. But if you are declaring income from outside of France, wouldn't the FISC want to check that to make sure you are putting in the correct #s? How would they verify that??


They don't want you to submit any supporting paperwork with your tax return. You simply submit the forms.
I guess if for some reason they wanted to check your figures, they would ask for paperwork at a later stage and if it still wasn't available they would wait patiently until it was. The fisc know how these things work.
But they don't routinely check up on every déclarant with foreign income every year, it wouldn't be possible. My impression is that if a déclarant's figures get flagged up as dodgy by one of the tax computer's algorithms, the inspectors bide their time and keep tabs for a few years, then if they think there is something going on they start an investigation. 
In any case there may be an information-sharing agreement between the US and French tax offices, I have no idea on that. There used to be and maybe still is between the UK and the EU, for instance France can request a copy of a UK tax return from the UK tax authorities, for businesses at least and I presume for private individuals as well.
But basically, they don't regard everybody as a potential fraudster, they trust people to be honest.


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## Bevdeforges

ET nailed it - the French system works very differently from the US system. No, you don't need your US returns in order to file your French declaration. The two systems are completely independent of each other. (Well, not so much the US system - if you are taking the Foreign Tax Credit....) The Fisc doesn't really care what you filed with the US (or for that matter whether you filed with the US).

You should only declare your worldwide income for the period you were resident in France in 2021. But even if that includes US or other foreign source income, the amounts you declare aren't systematically checked. They only will ask you later for any proofs they need if they have a question or if they have reason to doubt something you've declared. (And actually, they will sometimes just call you to ask you for clarification of an item. It doesn't mean you've done anything wrong or are subject to audit.)

And, just for the record, if you miss the filing deadline, you are subject to a fine of 10% of whatever your tax for the declaration is determined to be. In 3 months resident in France, chances are you will owe 0 € and thus 0 € in fines, even if you're a couple weeks or even months late. (But still, get it in on time and you'll have one more document to offer up to support any number of administrative tasks over the coming months and years.)


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