# Signing off padrón, deregistering as resident etc.



## goingtobcn (Sep 9, 2012)

Another question from me about leaving!

Do we need to take anything when we go to sign off the padrón, or is it just a case of telling them we're leaving and signing something? Do we have to do it as close to our departure date as possible, or could we go sooner and tell them the date we're leaving?

Thanks as always


----------



## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

Just a thought, what about deregistering from the foreigners register, and the Spanish health and tax system.
If you sign off, and between doing so and leaving Spain, you are ill, or have an accident, where does it leave you , health cover wise? In limbo covered by neither Spain nor UK ? Ok it's unlikely to happen, but it could...
Tax- if you leave as a tax resident, and are therefore regarded as tax resident for the whole year Jan-Dec, how can you deregister while still being liable for that year's tax?


----------



## goingtobcn (Sep 9, 2012)

Hi extranjero,
My gestors will deal with deregistering me from the tax system and autonomos. I'm not sure exactly when they'll do this but I guess they'll have the option to put the exact date we're leaving.
I haven't read anything about having to deregister from the foreigners' register and when we first went there, we told them we'd only be here for 2 years. My gestors haven't said anything about needing to do that either.
My Dr knows that I'm leaving and didn't say that I need to do anything - I assume that when I'm signed off autonomos I wouldn't be eligible for healthcare anyway.
I see what you mean about limbo and that's what I want to avoid - wondered whether we could sign off the padrón but give them a date in the future when we'll actually be leaving?


----------



## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

Apparently if you don't, 
it can cause problems when going back to the UK, registering with Doctors etc
I don't know if someone can do it on your behalf, it would make it easier.


----------



## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Another reason to avoid registering on it if possible.........3,2,1


----------



## Rugbyplod (Oct 14, 2014)

How much does a gestors cost ?


----------



## goingtobcn (Sep 9, 2012)

extranjero said:


> Apparently if you don't,
> it can cause problems when going back to the UK, registering with Doctors etc
> I don't know if someone can do it on your behalf, it would make it easier.


If you don't what? Sign off the padrón or something else?



Rugbyplod said:


> How much does a gestors cost ?


Mine charge 150€ per trimester to deal with all my autonomo paperwork and they also did hubby's tax return as well as mine. No start up fee either. I don't know how much they charge to help with one-off things though.


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

extranjero said:


> Apparently if you don't,
> it can cause problems when going back to the UK, registering with Doctors etc
> I don't know if someone can do it on your behalf, it would make it easier.



not deregistering is highly unlikely to cause you problems back in the UK as far as healthcare is concerned - I guess if there was any suspicion that you were a health tourist you might be asked to prove it - but as it stands, all that is required is that you can provide evidence that you intend to stay permanently in the UK & have the right to do so

clearly a British citizen has right of abode

proof could be a rental contract, having registered to vote, a job, children in school, utility contracts etc. - there is no official documentation which says what that proof is

not deregistering in Spain _could _cause you tax problems back in Spain though


----------



## goingtobcn (Sep 9, 2012)

xabiachica said:


> not deregistering is highly unlikely to cause you problems back in the UK as far as healthcare is concerned - I guess if there was any suspicion that you were a health tourist you might be asked to prove it - but as it stands, all that is required is that you can provide evidence that you intend to stay permanently in the UK & have the right to do so
> 
> clearly a British citizen has right of abode
> 
> ...


When you say not deregistering, do you mean from the padrón, with the tax office or at the extranjería? We'll sign off the padrón and gestors will tell tax office - is that enough, do you know?


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

goingtobcn said:


> When you say not deregistering, do you mean from the padrón, with the tax office or at the extranjería? We'll sign off the padrón and gestors will tell tax office - is that enough, do you know?


padrón & tax would be the biggies

if you're on the padrón you're declaring yourself as resident & they talk to the tax people

you should deregister as resident too


----------



## goingtobcn (Sep 9, 2012)

xabiachica said:


> padrón & tax would be the biggies
> 
> if you're on the padrón you're declaring yourself as resident & they talk to the tax people
> 
> you should deregister as resident too


Ok, thanks. 

Any idea how to deregister as a resident? Or is the fact that we're signing off the padrón enough?


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

goingtobcn said:


> Ok, thanks.
> 
> Any idea how to deregister as a resident? Or is the fact that we're signing off the padrón enough?


just go back to the extranjería & tell them


----------



## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

xabiachica said:


> just go back to the extranjería & tell them


Actually, you have to use the same form as when you registered (EX18) - there's a box on there to de-register (towards the bottom - "baja por cese").


----------



## goingtobcn (Sep 9, 2012)

Thanks snikpoh  
Of course, when I try to make an appointment with the extranjería online, it says there are none available! I'll chat to my gestors - as someone said above, I don't want to do any of this too soon in case we need healthcare before leaving. The ideal would be for my gestors to do it once we're back in the UK but not sure if that's possible - will keep you updated!


----------



## Turtles (Jan 9, 2011)

I've just got back from the Ayuntamiento where I registered on the Padron at my new address and deregistered my landlords, who are by now living somewhere in England. To do this I needed a letter from them (which asked for them to darse de baja and for me to be added), a copy of the last IBI bill and photocopies of their passports.


----------



## goingtobcn (Sep 9, 2012)

Turtles said:


> I've just got back from the Ayuntamiento where I registered on the Padron at my new address and deregistered my landlords, who are by now living somewhere in England. To do this I needed a letter from them (which asked for them to darse de baja and for me to be added), a copy of the last IBI bill and photocopies of their passports.


Thanks, that's good to know. We have a rental contract that expires on the day we leave, so am hoping that will suffice to sign us off it! We'll also take passports as proof of ID, as we did when we signed on.


----------



## goingtobcn (Sep 9, 2012)

Little update... Gestor agreed that padrón and tax were the most important, but I finally got appointments at the Extranjería for 16th December so will update again after that! Anyone have any experience with this - are they likely to want to see anything to prove we're leaving?


----------



## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

goingtobcn said:


> Little update... Gestor agreed that padrón and tax were the most important, but I finally got appointments at the Extranjería for 16th December so will update again after that! Anyone have any experience with this - are they likely to want to see anything to prove we're leaving?


What will you do about healthcare,as once you're no longer resident your entitlement to free care will end, and of course you'll be handing back your medical card. How long is the interval between all your deregistering and leaving Spain?
Re tax- how will you pay the income tax for 2014 from the UK, as even though you will be non resident for tax, you've regarded as liable for tax for the whole of 2014?
I'm asking as I want to know what to do when I'm in the same position as yourself .


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

*cautionary tale*

on a local FB group yesterday a guy was having a bit of a vent

it seems that in the late 1980s as a young teenager, he came here with his family to live... they did everything correctly, registered as resident etc etc

as a young adult some years later he returned to the UK to live & work, & while there he took & passed his driving test

he then at some point returned to live in Spain

some years later again, his UK driving licence about to expire, he did the right thing & started the process to exchange it for a Spanish one

just one problem..... according to Spain he was officially resident in Spain when he took his test in the UK, so that makes his UK licence invalid, because you can only take a test in the UK if you are legally resident there.......


the DGT has accepted his explanation, & thankfully hasn't just refused to deal with him, but wants proof that he was truly living in the UK at the time, in the form of tax records or similar (all officially translated etc etc of course) 
of course he would never have registered as living there, because he didn't have to...

I'm sure that this can all be sorted out for him eventually - but if he'd deregistered when he left, it wouldn't need to be

of course he & probably a huge number of people leaving would never have even thought about deregistering - perhaps even the majority - but it might just come back many years later & bite them on the bum....


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

extranjero said:


> Apparently if you don't,
> it can cause problems when going back to the UK, registering with Doctors etc
> I don't know if someone can do it on your behalf, it would make it easier.


I work for the NHS, although not in the new registration department. But I've asked around, surgeries, practice managers, commissioning, GPs... None of them know of this and all say that unless there are obvious signs of fraud (Which they then still have to register the patient, catching criminals isnt in their remit, but will contact the fraud dept), then they don't ask or care if you've de-registered or not, in any case, it becomes obvious to the medical services in Spain when the UK ask for your patient records from your Spanish GP. They simply need proof of a UK address, passport and if required, a visa! That's all the form of registration asks for.

However, taxes are a different matter 

Jo xxx

Sent from my D5803 using Expat Forum


----------



## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> on a local FB group yesterday a guy was having a bit of a vent
> 
> it seems that in the late 1980s as a young teenager, he came here with his family to live... they did everything correctly, registered as resident etc etc
> 
> ...


I find this tale quite hard to believe. I have lived in Spain since 1974, but until 1991, I didn't have an NIE. They didn't exist. I had various residency permits, first I was included on my mum's, then when I was married I obtained one in my own right but until I was living in Burgos and my previous flimsy card expired, I had no NIE. My children were born here, the two eldest in 1985 and 1986, but when I first got my green card after having had several residency cards, it stated I was a permanent resident since 1991, date on which my first NIE number / residency card which included this number, was issued because there was no tie in with my previous residency cards. And when I went to get my padrón I could only prove I had lived here in my flat since 1997, which was when I returned to live here and updated my padrón because although we have owned the flat since 1986, details of NIE weren't on record until this date.
Besides which, even if he came as a teenager, when he returned, it was either prior to 2007 when he would not have had to register as resident, so he would have been here when the law changed and then would have been required to, or it was after this date, when he would have had to register within 90 days, so he would have no problem in establishing that he had returned to Spain after having lived in the UK. If he retuned after 2007 and was correctly registered here at the time, which is when the issue of deregistering may become an issue, how could his driving license be about to expire?


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

anles said:


> I find this tale quite hard to believe. I have lived in Spain since 1974, but until 1991, I didn't have an NIE. They didn't exist. I had various residency permits, first I was included on my mum's, then when I was married I obtained one in my own right but until I was living in Burgos and my previous flimsy card expired, I had no NIE. My children were born here, the two eldest in 1985 and 1986, but when I first got my green card after having had several residency cards, it stated I was a permanent resident since 1991, date on which my first NIE number / residency card which included this number, was issued because there was no tie in with my previous residency cards. And when I went to get my padrón I could only prove I had lived here in my flat since 1997, which was when I returned to live here and updated my padrón because although we have owned the flat since 1986, details of NIE weren't on record until this date.
> Besides which, even if he came as a teenager, when he returned, it was either prior to 2007 when he would not have had to register as resident, so he would have been here when the law changed and then would have been required to, or it was after this date, when he would have had to register within 90 days, so he would have no problem in establishing that he had returned to Spain after having lived in the UK. If he retuned after 2007 and was correctly registered here at the time, which is when the issue of deregistering may become an issue, how could his driving license be about to expire?


I've no reason to doubt it tbh

I would imagine he was included on his parents' residencias - I just checked back on his post & he says that they arrived in Spain in 1988 & that he was in the UK from 2001 to 2004 & did his test in the UK in 2003

perhaps it had already expired & he was 'fudging' that bit to save face

I do know for sure though, that if it is discovered that you weren't resident in the UK when you took the driving test there, it isn't valid


----------



## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> I've no reason to doubt it tbh
> 
> I would imagine he was included on his parents' residencias - I just checked back on his post & he says that they arrived in Spain in 1988 & that he was in the UK from 2001 to 2004 & did his test in the UK in 2003
> 
> ...


I'm not disputing that, in fact there several high profile cases here in Spain of people who had taken their test in Gibralter (Alejandro Sanz was one). But the fact is that prior to 2007, the registry didn't exist, therefore it would have been impossible to deregister. There were residency permits for Europeans with our little photo id but these expired after 5 years. So, he would have still have had to register after he had returned in 2004 not before!


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

anles said:


> I'm not disputing that, in fact there several high profile cases here in Spain of people who had taken their test in Gibralter (Alejandro Sanz was one). But the fact is that prior to 2007, the registry didn't exist, therefore it would have been impossible to deregister. There were residency permits for Europeans with our little photo id but these expired after 5 years. So, he would have still have had to register after he had returned in 2004 not before!


I had a little blue id with photo in the 1980's. You could get an a, b or c as far as I remember. You couldn't work with an a, a b was for workers and was renewable after a year and a c was valid for 5 years, isn't that right? Didn't they have an ID number on them?
As far as I understand it the European Citizens Registrar didn't exist as such, but you were still on a list in a police station somewhere. Also I wouldn't it depend if you were working or not?


----------



## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

Anles _I have lived in Spain since 1974, but until 1991, I didn't have an NIE. They didn't exist.
_
Just for clarity.

I have just checked my first NIE certificate. It is dated July 1989. As I remember that was about when they were first introduced.

The EU Citizens Register was introduced in April 2007, when Residencia for EU citizens was abolished. (Of course cards which had already been issued were valid until their expiry date).

Xabiachica_ I do know for sure though, that if it is discovered that you weren't resident in the UK when you took the driving test there, it isn't valid _

And in such a case any insurance which you have is also invalid.


----------



## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

larryzx said:


> Anles _I have lived in Spain since 1974, but until 1991, I didn't have an NIE. They didn't exist.
> _
> Just for clarity.
> 
> ...


Sorry for not making myself clear on this point. I obtained mine in 1991 as that was when my previous residency expired, but obviously they had already been introduced at that point. However, my point was that prior to 2007, the register for Europeans didn't exist, so someone returning in 2004 would not have had to deregister. I obtained mine in 2012 as in April 2007 I had renewed my residency. So during that period, even though the register was in existence I was not registered and could not have deregistered in the event of my returning to the UK, and the person who claimed he hadn't deregistered in 2001 when he returned to the UK, and therefore had problems proving he wasn't a resident in Spain at that time, couldn't have deregistered from something that didn't yet exist. I wonder if he ever did register.


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

anles said:


> Sorry for not making myself clear on this point. I obtained mine in 1991 as that was when my previous residency expired, but obviously they had already been introduced at that point. However, my point was that prior to 2007, the register for Europeans didn't exist, so someone returning in 2004 would not have had to deregister. I obtained mine in 2012 as in April 2007 I had renewed my residency. So during that period, even though the register was in existence I was not registered and could not have deregistered in the event of my returning to the UK, and the person who claimed he hadn't deregistered in 2001 when he returned to the UK, and therefore had problems proving he wasn't a resident in Spain at that time, couldn't have deregistered from something that didn't yet exist. I wonder if he ever did register.


if he didn't register, why would Spain believe that he was resident here continuously since 1988?

Why would he have to prove _* - to Spain - *_that he was resident in the UK in 2003 when he took his driving test there?

there is clearly some record somewhere that he was resident & didn't deregister


----------



## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I had a little blue id with photo in the 1980's. You could get an a, b or c as far as I remember. You couldn't work with an a, a b was for workers and was renewable after a year and a c was valid for 5 years, isn't that right? Didn't they have an ID number on them?
> As far as I understand it the European Citizens Registrar didn't exist as such, but you were still on a list in a police station somewhere. Also I wouldn't it depend if you were working or not?


I didn't have one like that. My last residency card before the one with my NIE number was a white card folded over and the number was 27/86, (no a, b or c) because it was the 27th card issued in the province of Lugo in 1986. It was valid for five years but there may have been different kinds issued. But the number was no good for anything official; I had to use my passport for most things which was a pain as when I renewed it, the number changed so I had several issues with that. The introduction of the NIE certainly made any paperwork easier.


----------



## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> if he didn't register, why would Spain believe that he was resident here continuously since 1988?
> 
> Why would he have to prove _* - to Spain - *_that he was resident in the UK in 2003 when he took his driving test there?
> 
> there is clearly some record somewhere that he was resident & didn't deregister


Which is why I find the story hard to believe. If he had been a resident he would have had to renew his residency every five years. Otherwise it would have expired. And when I got my certificate of registry, it said I had been a resident here since 1991, when I obtained my first NIE. I have that on paper! I was a resident here long before that but there was no link to my previous residency status.


----------



## goingtobcn (Sep 9, 2012)

Hello from the UK! We made it back with all our stuff :lol: The last few weeks were pretty hectic, hence the delayed reply, but thought I'd update to see if it helps anyone else. 

To sign off the padrón, we had to fill in a form saying we were leaving and hand that in with a copy of our passport. We got a stamped copy of this. 
At the extranjería, we filled in the Ex-18 form in advance (just the personal details) and ticked the "baja por cese" box. The lady when we first went in said we'd need a copy of our passport but in fact, when it was our turn, the lady we saw didn't even need that. She just took the green cards, photocopied the form (!!), stamped the forms and gave us the copy. 

Extranjero, to answer your question, we did all this a few days before leaving so hopefully it would've taken a couple of days to actually get us off the system. In any case, there didn't seem to be another option as you have to do it in person! As for tax, we've left a bank account open (I wrote another post about that somewhere) and my gestors sort out my tax return. Hopefully I'll get some money back in the summer and then we can close the account.

At some point I'll wrote another post about our experiences over the past two years but in a nutshell, it was a fantastic time


----------



## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

There are 2 members on here 1 is a Brit & the other I believe is Norwegian. I believe the Brit started the thread re ; taking his test in Uk & the Norwegian commented. 
The brit was exactly the same .Moved here didn't have a licence, registered as resident with tarjeta, then needed to drive but thought Spanish wasn't up to it so took test/passed in UK . No problem until 10 years later , 2013, when in the final process of exchanging, someone spotted it in Malaga & said"sorry you haven't got a legal licence , Cannot exchange & need to take a spanish test". The Norwegian popped in to more or less confirm that exactly the same happened to him. Sure it was last year.


----------



## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

larryzx said:


> Anles _I have lived in Spain since 1974, but until 1991, I didn't have an NIE. They didn't exist.
> _
> Just for clarity.
> 
> ...


The problem is to be a resident in the UK only requires that at the time you propose to be a resident of the UK. That is all that is required & you can change your mind the next day.
EU rules also backs this up for any country . 
" A state does not, nor can , bestow residency on a citizen. It is the citizen who chooses where he wishes to be a resident ".

Theoretically you can stand in one country today & state that you are a resident; & tomorrow another country; & Tuesday a 3rd .Etc; Etc; All legal under EU rules.


----------

