# restaurants for lease/sale in Malaga area



## thomas541 (Jul 7, 2013)

hello
I was surfing the various costa del sol bars/restaurants websites, ie, companies that act as agents for these.
why so many for sale/lease ? too many created ? still the effect fo the crisis ?
way too many licences granted by authorities ?

I sure would not sign/commit anything online without spending weeks months visiting and getting infos on these.

I think it's more worthwhile to run a good restaurant (ie good food correctly priced, way too many "would be restaurant owners" who don't know what good food is... )than a bar imho. or are tourists "that" much looking to get drunk ?? 

Which is the current hot most crowed area on the costa del sol ? ie crowded with expats/tourists who can spend more than EUR 2 per meal LOL...

thanks


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

The most obvious answer is the fact that the crisis is not only still on, it looks like it's set up house here in Spain!

There may also be licensing problems, I don't know


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## thomas541 (Jul 7, 2013)

hey
yep, 27% desempleo and the seasonal pick up in jobs is just temporary.

too many bars/resto/clubs in parallel to the housing crisis. Closely linked !
I guess lots opened and didn't comply with all requirements either...

but Spain will pick up at some point. German banks are lending close to EUR 3B I read for small business loans via Spanish banks. will the banks however loan the money effectively or use it to keep correcting their balance sheet 

"seems" the peak is to be reached by 2015 before a turn (Eurostat forecast)


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

thomas541 said:


> hey
> yep, 27% desempleo and the seasonal pick up in jobs is just temporary.


Actually more like 34% in Malaga/ Andalucia in general, and 50% for the under 25s.
Very sad.

Hopefully things will really start to get better soon and not just improve because of the season as you say, but to tell you the truth, it has been widely reported that Spain (as well as other countries) will not regain its former position in the world economy.

That's not to say that it's a bad idea to buy a bar at some time in the future in Malaga, but ALL the ins and outs need to studied carefully.


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## thomas541 (Jul 7, 2013)

supply and demand (bars, restaurants) too.

Indeed (unemployment of youth is close to 60%)

and the FMI is even asking Spain to ... lower wages... (as if they were not low enough )

Spain might leave the euro at some point, as Greece, Portugal, Italy might too.
that means devaluation over about 12months up to 80% based on "sort of" comparable events (Argentina etc)
ultimately it will relaunch their exports. or should. but will be painful
immediately via exploding inflation at several levels (oil and other imported raw materials, and those German cars imports...)
would make it even cheaper for hard currency tourists...


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

I would buy a bar as long as I could guarantee I was the only customer...


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

thomas541 said:


> hey
> yep, 27% desempleo and the seasonal pick up in jobs is just temporary.
> 
> too many bars/resto/clubs in parallel to the housing crisis. Closely linked !
> ...


Then really the Spanish should be the ones who benefit from any "pick up" in the economy - if what you say is true. 

However, the busiest area of the costa del sol???? Well, its all busy in the summer - altho hotels are now offering "all inclusive" holidays, which arent particularly helpful to local businesses. The winter of course is a different matter and you do have to factor that into any possible profits made during the summer - keep at least half back!

Jo xxx


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## thomas541 (Jul 7, 2013)

jojo said:


> Then really the Spanish should be the ones who benefit from any "pick up" in the economy - if what you say is true.
> 
> However, the busiest area of the costa del sol???? Well, its all busy in the summer - altho hotels are now offering "all inclusive" holidays, which arent particularly helpful to local businesses. The winter of course is a different matter and you do have to factor that into any possible profits made during the summer - keep at least half back!
> 
> Jo xxx


hello Jo,
I mean at some point Spain will "bottom" and pick up. in real estate for instance, some are making bargain deals (Russians, Chinese ?). but the good crazy days of construction ad nauseam are gone (and people are aware of the permits scandals)
Spain remains however still the nr 4 worldwide tourism destination. (climate, landscape, visiting, food ). Unexpendable. even Germany  can't create it.

as far as the seasonality goes, is this correct ? march to september (included)= THE tourism period and january, feb, october to december the dead months ? so 7/5 ratio. (sce: Andalucia statistics, can't yet post a link)


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## thomas541 (Jul 7, 2013)

I also think it's a mistake to think the Brits will spend that much time and money drinking.
Ridiculous.
However, there's always an opp to offer great food, well priced (correctly priced that is) and services, comfort, kindness ("client is king" so it should be...), ie, a restaurant (with perhaps a small bar section if for instance you gotta wait for a table).

speaking of food, can anyone chime in regarding prices: say a quality pizza, how much on average ?
ice creams ? good paella ?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

thomas541 said:


> hello Jo,
> I mean at some point Spain will "bottom" and pick up. in real estate for instance, some are making bargain deals (Russians, Chinese ?). but the good crazy days of construction ad nauseam are gone (and people are aware of the permits scandals)
> Spain remains however still the nr 4 worldwide tourism destination. (climate, landscape, visiting, food ). Unexpendable. even Germany  can't create it.
> 
> as far as the seasonality goes, is this correct ? march to september (included)= THE tourism period and january, feb, october to december the dead months ? so 7/5 ratio. (sce: Andalucia statistics, can't yet post a link)


I suspect that the Russian/Chinese interests in Spain arent all they appear to be - altho I think I read somewhere that due to the amount of money the Chinese have lent Spain, they dont have to pay business tax (summat like that). I'm sure there maybe scope one day for more foriegners to open restaurants/bars in Spain, but as things are right now, only someone with an in-depth knowledge of the language, rules, regs, culture, area, needs.... would be able to make such a venture a success - From what I've seen its a heavily over saturated market - and some!

Jo xxx


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## thomas541 (Jul 7, 2013)

jojo said:


> Then really the Spanish should be the ones who benefit from any "pick up" in the economy - if what you say is true.
> 
> However, the busiest area of the costa del sol???? Well, its all busy in the summer - altho hotels are now offering "all inclusive" holidays, which arent particularly helpful to local businesses. The winter of course is a different matter and you do have to factor that into any possible profits made during the summer - keep at least half back!
> 
> Jo xxx










"peaking" in 2015 then will starting dropping finally. or should

The Most Doomed Part of Spain, in 2 Charts - Matthew O'Brien - The Atlantic
how is the reality in Andalucia ? day to day

from what I read: 
1. poor labor mobility and regions surrounding Andalucia have even worth unemployment so Andalucians would have to travel further North to hope find a job 
2. Spanish labor laws: there's a problem there for sure. too many protections, regulations, no wonder small businesses especially are not much tempted to offer long term contracts.
the new PP government (Madrid that is) is it seems trying to change things a bit but Andalucia is still (with Barcelona) the sole socialist region after 2011 elections...(Sevilla capital of Andalucia voted PS in 2011).


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

thomas541 said:


> "peaking" in 2015 then will starting dropping finally. or should
> 
> The Most Doomed Part of Spain, in 2 Charts - Matthew O'Brien - The Atlantic
> how is the reality in Andalucia ? day to day



Yeah, we looked at graphs and more graphs, surveys and studies before we moved to Spain to carry our business over there. That was Feb 2008. There was absolutely no mention of any recession that was about to grip the western world lol!! So I take such things with a pinch of salt

Jo xxx


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## thomas541 (Jul 7, 2013)

jojo said:


> Yeah, we looked at graphs and more graphs, surveys and studies before we moved to Spain to carry our business over there. That was Feb 2008. There was absolutely no mention of any recession that was about to grip the western world lol!! So I take such things with a pinch of salt
> 
> Jo xxx


well the whole world took a beating end of 2008 for sure except a few.

buy low sell high is the rule in every investment (stocks, funds, real estate) trick is to determine when it's low and when it's high, charts are very helpful for that (long term charts that is !!!)

real estate hasn't yet entirely bottomed in Spain or elsewhere but it's case by case.
2015 is nr Buffet mentioned in 2009...

Really to keep in mind a possible euro exit though for southern EU members. Asap one does, a domino effect is possible. It should take roughly one year for the new currency to finally bottom also. It does not happen overnight or months.

Preparing for a worst-case euro scenario | In English | EL PAÍS euro exit scenario
Efforts to Halt the Euro Crisis Ineffective in Southern Europe - SPIEGEL ONLINE

It would be wise perhas if living in Spain to not have yr money in a Spanish bank but a non Spanish bank, for the money or income in Spain. If one day Spain leaves euro, a run on banks will immediately happen and any money in euro in a spanish bank will be converted into the new pesetas. A peseta that will keep losing value for perhaps a whole year so better to convert hard currencies into the new pesetas AFTER it has bottomed.
We're not there yet but it can happen.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

thomas541 said:


> well the whole world took a beating end of 2008 for sure except a few.
> 
> buy low sell high is the rule in every investment (stocks, funds, real estate) trick is to determine when it's low and when it's high, charts are very helpful for that (long term charts that is !!!)
> 
> ...


So you are planning to buy a bar/restaurant in Spain and keep your fingers crossed for two years?? that could be a costly and dangerous game. Especially as Spains rules and regulations change on a sixpence and you could wake up one morning and find they're building a motorway thru the middle of it lol!!!!

Personally, if thats your plan, I'd say its too higher risk, for too little gain

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

thomas541 said:


> "peaking" in 2015 then will starting dropping finally. or should
> 
> The Most Doomed Part of Spain, in 2 Charts - Matthew O'Brien - The Atlantic
> how is the reality in Andalucia ? day to day


A recovery has been predicted in Spain as far back as 2009 when Elena Salagado, Vice President in Zapatero's government saw the mythical Brotes Verdes (green shoots) that never blossomed. So, don't hold your breath and don't believe what you read in the papers.
Sooner or later the economy will blossom again, but (imho) it looks as if things will be done along the same lines, the same kind of economy will be followed and sooner or later the same kind of crash will come - again. If you can make your living while the going's good, well congratulations.
I found the article you give a link to interesting. It was especially interesting to read this which is smth OH has always stressed. Even in the good times - the eighties for example employment in Spain was not high
_Back in 2005, unemployment in Andalusia was 14.2 percent, and unemployment for two years or more was 2.9 percent. And these were the good times. In other words, Andalusia has historically had high unemployment, most recently among agricultural and construction workers, and been underdeveloped compared to the rest of Spain. It hasn't helped that it, and the rest of the country, have some serious structural problems that keep unemployment up even when the economy is growing, and really pushes unemployment up when it's not._
The mobility factor is something *elenetxu* brought up in a recent thread.


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## thomas541 (Jul 7, 2013)

jojo said:


> So you are planning to buy a bar/restaurant in Spain and keep your fingers crossed for two years?? that could be a costly and dangerous game. Especially as Spains rules and regulations change on a sixpence and you could wake up one morning and find they're building a motorway thru the middle of it lol!!!!
> 
> Personally, if thats your plan, I'd say its too higher risk, for too little gain
> 
> Jo xxx


just looking around for now, analyzing the market. there is a big problem for sure.
hundreds and hundreds of bars (few real restaurants ) for sale-lease and lots of scams imho....not falling for the "selling for retiring reason" lol.
there's a glut of bars as there's a glut of empty villas, apparts


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

thomas541 said:


> just looking around for now, analyzing the market. there is a big problem for sure.
> hundreds and hundreds of bars (few real restaurants ) for sale-lease and lots of scams imho....not falling for the "selling for retiring reason" lol.
> there's a glut of bars as there's a glut of empty villas, apparts


 Thats the point and the problem, so many businesses going under, no money, no employment and too many of them anyway. And like it or not, the world is changing and not as many people seem to be visiting spain for their holidays anymore - well the world has got smaller and folk now are going further a field. Who knows if it will change??! The hotels are doing their bit by offering "all inclusives", but sadly, that type of holiday tends to attract those who dont spend money. 

Who knows - charts and graphs can only predict by using history, probables and computer models - reality tends to be far more random

Jo xxx


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## thomas541 (Jul 7, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> A recovery has been predicted in Spain as far back as 2009 when Elena Salagado, Vice President in Zapatero's government saw the mythical Brotes Verdes (green shoots) that never blossomed. So, don't hold your breath and don't believe what you read in the papers.
> Sooner or later the economy will blossom again, but (imho) it looks as if things will be done along the same lines, the same kind of economy will be followed and sooner or later the same kind of crash will come - again. If you can make your living while the going's good, well congratulations.
> I found the article you give a link to interesting. It was especially interesting to read this which is smth OH has always stressed. Even in the good times - the eighties for example employment in Spain was not high
> _Back in 2005, unemployment in Andalusia was 14.2 percent, and unemployment for two years or more was 2.9 percent. And these were the good times. In other words, Andalusia has historically had high unemployment, most recently among agricultural and construction workers, and been underdeveloped compared to the rest of Spain. It hasn't helped that it, and the rest of the country, have some serious structural problems that keep unemployment up even when the economy is growing, and really pushes unemployment up when it's not._
> The mobility factor is something *elenetxu* brought up in a recent thread.


never trust politicians on predictions either 
charts are "apoliticals".
Andalucia remains indeed a case appart, sole region (Sevilla) to "still" have voted socialist (ie maintain ultra protection of workers contracts?..) with Barcelona

The tourism (annual figures) "seems" to be bottoming:
Tourism Statistics in Andalucia, Spain


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## thomas541 (Jul 7, 2013)

jojo said:


> Thats the point and the problem, so many businesses going under, no money, no employment and too many of them anyway. And like it or not, the world is changing and not as many people seem to be visiting spain for their holidays anymore - well the world has got smaller and folk now are going further a field. Who knows if it will change??! The hotels are doing their bit by offering "all inclusives", but sadly, that type of holiday tends to attract those who dont spend money.
> 
> Who knows - charts and graphs can only predict by using history, probables and computer models - reality tends to be far more random
> 
> Jo xxx


on charts: agree but consider them as indicators, "trends" givers. absolute certitude would be too easy.
I posted a chart on annual international tourism, again, a trend
I think the over construction has altered some parts of Andalucia landscape and historic "look", excess is never good. are demolitions continuing ?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

thomas541 said:


> on charts: agree but consider them as indicators, "trends" givers. absolute certitude would be too easy.
> I posted a chart on annual international tourism, again, a trend
> I think the over construction has altered some parts of Andalucia landscape and historic "look", excess is never good. are demolitions continuing ?


 I've not heard of any demolitions - I've heard they'd like to, but theres no money??? But then what? 

No, I dont see charts as anything more than gambling fodder produced by those with a vested interest!

Jo xxx


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## thomas541 (Jul 7, 2013)

to Pesky
believing unemployment will go back to lowest levels is indeed an heresy. never will happen.
Though if look closer at what is going on in Germany: some regions employers are allowed to pay as low as EUR 2 an hour though... scary. and pensions in some parts are very very low but legal so Germany's 4.5% unemployment is NOT telling the true story...
Same Germany via the FMI telling Spain to further push for lowering salaries... while Spain already has a "smic" like minimal income 1/2 of France...


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

thomas541 said:


> never trust politicians on predictions either
> charts are "apoliticals".


No, they're not!
There's always somebody/ some organisation behind the info giving the slant they want to give. Even if they want to be as objective as possible they can only report the information they are given.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

thomas541 said:


> to Pesky
> believing unemployment will go back to lowest levels is indeed an heresy. never will happen.
> Though if look closer at what is going on in Germany: some regions employers are allowed to pay as low as EUR 2 an hour though... scary. and pensions in some parts are very very low but legal so Germany's 4.5% unemployment is NOT telling the true story...
> Same Germany via the FMI telling Spain to further push for lowering salaries... while Spain already has a "smic" like minimal income 1/2 of France...


Blimey - 2 euros an hour - officially!

Yes, I heard about the advice about lowering salaries in Spain. What a joke! As if there were decent salaries to start with!!


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## thomas541 (Jul 7, 2013)

demolitions: they seem to have stopped, after lawsuits all over the place.

chinese and tax: possible. chinese are "buying" Greece... (seaport , land)
and also getting some favors in exchange.

charts: hey, just using them as economic tools; it would be unwise to venture in any kind of investment (timing) without them imho. just saying. gambling is for casino and poker lovers.
they are useful tools to sell "close" to tops and buy "close" to lows. (note the wording "close to") or at best give an idea of trends. 
I'd take a chart over ANY politician prediction or a salesman...
We're not out of the woods yet. One could say there's still not enough bars/bars-restos for sale-lease "yet"...


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## thomas541 (Jul 7, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> No, they're not!
> There's always somebody/ some organisation behind the info giving the slant they want to give. Even if they want to be as objective as possible they can only report the information they are given.


numbers are numbers
but having said that: take the real and the "official" unemployment rates (in the US for instance: 7.6% is a joke, it's really twice that and up to 30% for young people)

I'd be wary of investing much money in the overal stock market now.
risk reward not good no more.


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## thomas541 (Jul 7, 2013)

Spain: ?IMF demands more labour reforms to ease dismissals and lower salaries? | Presseurop.eu: European news, cartoons and press reviews
there is pressure to force Spain to allow more labour flexibility (that would make businesses less wary of hiring).
but also lower salaries (that I don't get.. the minimal income is already around EUR 650)


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## thomas541 (Jul 7, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Blimey - 2 euros an hour - officially!
> 
> Yes, I heard about the advice about lowering salaries in Spain. What a joke! As if there were decent salaries to start with!!


Minimum wage Germany
there is no minimum legal wage in Germany, that's the issue.
scary.
List of minimum wages by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

thomas541 said:


> Minimum wage Germany
> there is no minimum legal wage in Germany, that's the issue.
> scary.
> List of minimum wages by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


 Does it matter???

Jo xxx


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## thomas541 (Jul 7, 2013)

jojo said:


> Does it matter???
> 
> Jo xxx


it's a reply to the other moderator but helps undetstand how come the FMI dares to ask Spain to lower salaries... (Germany of course as a lot to say in anything the FMI says)
Imho Spain should not allow lowering it's already low minimal salary level.
but should work on reducing red tape and "too constraining" rules for employers.
it would certainly help small business especially and help on the recovery.
I'd start via temporary job providers if I ever venture.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

thomas541 said:


> it's a reply to the other moderator but helps undetstand how come the FMI dares to ask Spain to lower salaries... (Germany of course as a lot to say in anything the FMI says)
> Imho Spain should not allow lowering it's already low minimal salary level.
> but should work on reducing red tape and "too constraining" rules for employers.
> it would certainly help small business especially and help on the recovery.
> I'd start via temporary job providers if I ever venture.


Spain does its own thing - we can all tell the government what it should be doing. Working on the black is being stamped out (supposedly), but those who arent eligible for benefits have to, the autonomo/self employment rules are crazy and costly, to employ people is also crazy and costly, residency rules have now become alot stricter, but I'm not sure thats encouraging income........ 

As I said before, only someone who has lived in Spain, speaks fluent Spanish and understands the way things work in Spain should be brave enough to contemplate starting or buying a business there, regardless of the economic climate

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

> thomas541 said:
> 
> 
> > but should work on reducing red tape and "too constraining" rules for employers.
> > it would certainly help small business especially and help on the recovery.


They are.
New legislation about starting up a business to come in in 2014 I believe. You're supposed to be able to set up a business in one day.


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## thomas541 (Jul 7, 2013)

what business sector are you ?
imho too many "dreamers" came there unprepared and grossly underfinanced to start a business or thinking they could make a fortune selling booze to young Brits who could just afford a Ryan Air flight ticket and spend 20 Euro total a day
agree on regulations. paramount to have a gestor, a (good trustable) lawyer too
taxations and employer's costs are still very attractive though.
New businesses from 1.1.2013 (that is new SL, SAs) pay only 15% corporate taxes as long as company's pretax income is under 300.000 euros.
Also compared to some other countries in EU, there are advantages (low capped employers' charges (250euros/month), limited (28%) employees cost for the employers (in some EU States it can as high as 3x the net salary!...), friendly cars taxation.
The issue is if your clients are mostly low income Spaniards...


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

thomas541 said:


> what business sector are you ?
> imho too many "dreamers" came there unprepared and grossly underfinanced to start a business or thinking they could make a fortune selling booze to young Brits who could just afford a Ryan Air flight ticket and spend 20 Euro total a day
> agree on regulations. paramount to have a gestor, a (good trustable) lawyer too
> taxations and employer's costs are still very attractive though.
> ...


My husband installs high end home and commercial music/multi media installations - he has a friend who does a similar thing in Spain and they were going to join forces. Fortunately he didnt give up the UK leg of the business, so when the recession hit, we had something to fall back on. 

as for Spain, the facts and figures dont mean alot - its not what you know, but who. Just wait and see - who knows what changes will come along, its literally unpredictable


Jo xxx


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## thomas541 (Jul 7, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> They are.
> New legislation about starting up a business to come in in 2014 I believe. You're supposed to be able to set up a business in one day.


true. quicker.


back to my headline, anyone can shed light on the precio para une pizza
or una crema helada or a good paella ?

Cost of Living in Madrid, Spain. Prices in Madrid.
are these prices reflecting reality ? (in Andulica)


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## thomas541 (Jul 7, 2013)

jojo said:


> My husband installs high end home and commercial music/multi media installations - he has a friend who does a similar thing in Spain and they were going to join forces. Fortunately he didnt give up the UK leg of the business, so when the recession hit, we had something to fall back on.
> 
> as for Spain, the facts and figures dont mean alot - its not what you know, but who. Just wait and see - who knows what changes will come along, its literally unpredictable
> 
> ...


Nice. basicly multi room and home theater. 5K or 50K installations ?
But the market remains much bigger in the UK imho, people spent so much time outside in Spain. no ?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

thomas541 said:


> Nice. basicly multi room and home theater. 5K or 50K installations ?
> But the market remains much bigger in the UK imho, people spent so much time outside in Spain. no ?



200K!! Some of the bigger villas in Spain have it outside (special TV screens), or air con theatres - not to mention night clubs - oh and super yachts.



Jo xxx


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## thomas541 (Jul 7, 2013)

very nice. 
there is still a LOT of money being spent one way or another.
russians chinese saudis luv Spain too


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

thomas541 said:


> true. quicker.
> 
> 
> back to my headline, anyone can shed light on the precio para une pizza
> ...


pizza delivery - 10'' pizza about 8€

ice cream yesterday from imo the best heladería in town - medium tub 3€

a GOOD paella... maybe 20€ for two people


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

The best pizza place in Nerja (according to my family, I dont eat them) charges 3.95€ for a ten inch. But that is considered cheap, but its made fresh on the premises and my OH doesnt know how they stay in business - altho they're always rammed and there are queues. They dont even load the price of their drinks

Paella varies in price depending on quality, quantity etc. As do icecreams, altho I think most are around 2€€ - 3€ a "ping pong ball" sized scoop + of course the cone.........

Jo xxx


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## thomas541 (Jul 7, 2013)

thanks for the input. appreciated.
well no secret, a good pizza of 11-12'' has ingredients cost of around 1.4 euro (a typical margerita with on extra topping max and not too much).
but there are pizza and pizza... a LOT look and taste like... untill you truely tasted the best Napolitana one or the best New York style one (and there too a lot are not the real ones). there are two approaches: go for lowest price max sales volume (4-5 euros)
or a good fair price for superb taste (6-12 euros depending on toppings). 
I am sure the tourists categories influence your pricing too (broke youth who could just afford a 40 euros flight ticket and expats living there or tourists with "normal" means and spending habits).

ice cream: so it's about the same pricing as in European non-crisis capital (1-1.5 euro a normal ball ). they charge cone ???? . an ice cream cost typically is around 0.15 euro a ball and 0.02 a cone....

paella: for a paella "at will" ? though there's so much you can eat after one large plate, feeling full and they know this when pricing it "at will" 
there's paella and paella indeed (qty of langustinas, calamares etc...)

as for bars, I was watching this video last night. interesting. the mid part about that single owner of those big bars (then the Brit one). for one mega success story, how many closed and failed ? also are authorities trustable ? fair to this or that business ?


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