# German unemployment falls to an 18 year low.



## rjnpenang (Feb 20, 2008)

From yesterdays NYT, "However, there was other good economic news from Germany on Thursday, as unemployment fell below the three million mark to 7 percent, an 18-year low". 
As comprehensive and sometimes painful labor market reforms have helped to make the labor market significantly more flexible,” 

Under 7% unemployment in one country (and going down) whilst over 20% for another in the same trading bloc, something terribly wrong somewhere!. As a former employer I think Spain desperately needs to make it easier to fire and hire staff. Regards Rob


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

rjnpenang said:


> From yesterdays NYT, "However, there was other good economic news from Germany on Thursday, as unemployment fell below the three million mark to 7 percent, an 18-year low".
> As comprehensive and sometimes painful labor market reforms have helped to make the labor market significantly more flexible,”
> 
> Under 7% unemployment in one country (and going down) whilst over 20% for another in the same trading bloc, something terribly wrong somewhere!. As a former employer I think Spain desperately needs to make it easier to fire and hire staff. Regards Rob


As a former union rep I don't agree with the firing part! But the government should definitely make it easier and cheaper for small businesses to employ staff.

One of the reforms currently going through is to make it cheaper to sack permanent workers in an an attempt to reduce the ridiculously high number of workers on short term contracts (30% or thereabouts). Only time will tell.

Germany's economy is very different from Spain's - it is the world's second biggest exporter - so it isn't really fair to compare them. Let's hope some of these newly prosperous Germans come and buy property here!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> As a former union rep I don't agree with the firing part! But the government should definitely make it easier and cheaper for small businesses to employ staff.
> 
> One of the reforms currently going through is to make it cheaper to sack permanent workers in an an attempt to reduce the ridiculously high number of workers on short term contracts (30% or thereabouts). Only time will tell.
> 
> Germany's economy is very different from Spain's - it is the world's second biggest exporter - so it isn't really fair to compare them. Let's hope some of these newly prosperous Germans come and buy property here!


That won't help the Spanish economy - it was trying to turn Spain into the Florida of Europe that was partially responsible for the slump.
Rob is right - the labour laws are far too biased in favour of the employee. And I say this as someone who was a member of the Institute of Directors in the UK and also an elected Trades Union official who sat on TUC and DTI committees. Not many people in that position...and when my partner became owner/Director of a medium-sized company I began to see the other side of the coin.
It is simply far too expensive for small companies in Spain to shed workers in a downturn. Redundancy pay for one employee could put a small firm out of business, thus causing other workers to lose their jobs.
Even our small animal charity which employs two full-time workers has been hit hard by the requirement to pay the finiquito. It's between the devil and the deep....you can't afford to keep workers and you can't afford to make them redundant. No wonder Spain's growth prospects are minimal..

You are right - the number on temporadas is ridiculously high. But that's scarcely surprising when the potential costs of taking on people on permanent contracts are so high.

And you are right about Germany. But German Trades Unions have always played a crucial role in the running of German businesses - an enterprise with over fifteen employees - I think that's the number - is required by law to appoint a worker to the Board. German unions work with a social market economy. Far too many British Trades Union leaders and members think we are still in the late nineteenth century. Some of them -Bob Crow and Mark Serwotka being two obvious examples - are professed Marxists and want to see capitalism fail.
I am beginning to think that Spanish Union leaders are more interested in ideologies than in working with employers and the elected government to help create a prosperous economy and secure hi-tech jobs for workers, especially the young.


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## Nignoy (Jun 4, 2010)

I find there is also a different work ethic in germany, german workers are more dependable and not so easily lead by the unions, not likely to strike at the drop of a hat ,especially like here in aus to gain a long weekend or if the local footie team is playing at home, I worked 20 years in germany both as an employee and later as an employer with up to 60 fulltime and 80 part time employees, always tried to have a reasonable working relationship with the unions, essential to cover the job security blanket for your workers, which is not always possible, but even in todays germany there is plenty of work available for those that want it,


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Nignoy said:


> I find there is also a different work ethic in germany, german workers are more dependable and not so easily lead by the unions, not likely to strike at the drop of a hat ,especially like here in aus to gain a long weekend or if the local footie team is playing at home, I worked 20 years in germany both as an employee and later as an employer with up to 60 fulltime and 80 part time employees, always tried to have a reasonable working relationship with the unions, essential to cover the job security blanket for your workers, which is not always possible, but even in todays germany there is plenty of work available for those that want it,



I think many Germans would disagree with your generalised view of their attitude to work. Regional differences play an important role in outlook and habits in Germany, as I'm sure you will know. Rhinelanders have a very different work ethic from Swabians or Bavarians. That is reflected in the very different economic status of the Laender. Bayern and Baden-Wuerttemberg have buoyant, healthy economies, unlike say Nord-Rhein Westfalen.
Likewise with German unions: workers in Germany are much more likely to be members of Trades Unions than in the UK. The consolidation of German Unions took place years before the process began in the UK. I believe there are nine unions in the German equivalent of the TUC, the DGB..
As I pointed out earlier, one of the main building blocks in Germany's post-war recovery has been the strong relation between workers, their unions, employers and governments..
If you want your employees to be efficient and loyal you treat them as thinking beings. You do not regard them as idiots easily led by the nose by their union bosses.
German workers have shown before and after reunification that they are as willing and able to defend what they perceive as their interests as any others in the world.
They go on strike too when it is felt right to do so.


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## Nignoy (Jun 4, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I think many Germans would disagree with your generalised view of their attitude to work. Regional differences play an important role in outlook and habits in Germany, as I'm sure you will know. Rhinelanders have a very different work ethic from Swabians or Bavarians. That is reflected in the very different economic status of the Laender. Bayern and Baden-Wuerttemberg have buoyant, healthy economies, unlike say Nord-Rhein Westfalen.
> Likewise with German unions: workers in Germany are much more likely to be members of Trades Unions than in the UK. The consolidation of German Unions took place years before the process began in the UK. I believe there are nine unions in the German equivalent of the TUC, the DGB..
> As I pointed out earlier, one of the main building blocks in Germany's post-war recovery has been the strong relation between workers, their unions, employers and governments..
> If you want your employees to be efficient and loyal you treat them as thinking beings. You do not regard them as idiots easily led by the nose by their union bosses.
> ...


you cannot compare the economies of the laender because of the mass closures of heavy industries for example in NRW to the situation in Schwaben or bayern, the change in the german economy was brought about on the strength of 2 million guest workers from turkey, italy, jugoslavia , poland and many other european countries, brought in in the 60,s and 70,s on average 75% of unskilled workers in mercedes, ford and opel factories were turkish and jugoslavian, my success especially in germany was built on the strength , reliability and excellent relationship with my staff, who still stay in touch! considering We left germany in 1988 so we must have got it right as far as our workers were concerned


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Well, there are lots of economic, social and cultural differences between Spain and Germany, but on balance I would rather be hard up in Spain than wealthy in Germany!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Nignoy said:


> you cannot compare the economies of the laender because of the mass closures of heavy industries for example in NRW to the situation in Schwaben or bayern, the change in the german economy was brought about on the strength of 2 million guest workers from turkey, italy, jugoslavia , poland and many other european countries, brought in in the 60,s and 70,s on average 75% of unskilled workers in mercedes, ford and opel factories were turkish and jugoslavian, my success especially in germany was built on the strength , reliability and excellent relationship with my staff, who still stay in touch! considering We left germany in 1988 so we must have got it right as far as our workers were concerned


I think you forgot the billions of $US from the Marshall Plan.....that helped too.
I wasn't so much comparing economies as I was pointing out that there have historically been great differences between regions which lead to different attitudes to work.
And in spite of differences in types of industry, that still holds good. Saxons, Bavarians , Schwaben, all originate from different racial groups and as you know have distinctive dialects.
In spite of closures of large companies in NRW, the chemical, steel and pharmaceutical industries and other important sectors are thriving and contributiong to the overall German economy.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Well, there are lots of economic, social and cultural differences between Spain and Germany, but on balance I would rather be hard up in Spain than wealthy in Germany!


Disregarding wealth.....Germany is a great place to live. Liberal, tolerant, very civic-minded....
Berlin is one of my favourite cities.
(The others are New York, Barcelona and of course London).
But if we had preferred Germany to Spain...that's where I'd be posting from now. We thought about it - briefly.
But Spain won hands down.!!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Disregarding wealth.....Germany is a great place to live. Liberal, tolerant, very civic-minded....
> Berlin is one of my favourite cities.
> (The others are New York, Barcelona and of course London).
> But if we had preferred Germany to Spain...that's where I'd be posting from now. We thought about it - briefly.
> But Spain won hands down.!!


Yes, Berlin and Manhattan are wonderful - I used to visit both regularly as the publisher I worked for had offices there. But these days I'm more into wild-life than night-life.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Yes, Berlin and Manhattan are wonderful - I used to visit both regularly as the publisher I worked for had offices there. But these days I'm more into wild-life than night-life.


And we're into a quiet life....apart of course from our perros abandonados.
We found the cutest Podenco tied up outside our refugio this morning. He's like a (very) mini Azor.
I'll have to get used to it....but I still can't get my head round how people can do this to animals.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> And we're into a quiet life....apart of course from our perros abandonados.
> We found the cutest Podenco tied up outside our refugio this morning. He's like a (very) mini Azor.
> I'll have to get used to it....but I still can't get my head round how people can do this to animals.


Well at least they left him there and didn't chuck him out of a car window on the motorway! It must be really difficult for you to resist the temptation to adopt them all.

Lots of podencos round here, but they are used for _la caza_ and are well looked after. Plenty of people here make a living selling game to restaurants.


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## Nignoy (Jun 4, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> Yes, Berlin and Manhattan are wonderful - I used to visit both regularly as the publisher I worked for had offices there. But these days I'm more into wild-life than night-life.


since leaving the army many moons agomy career has been based on wildlife be it in zoo,s parks, in europe and further afield, now as a retired old fart , I,m luckily in the position to live where I please that is why we have plans to spend a while in spain next spring ,to look for a little place to spend 6 months of the year, so my good lady is nearer the family in uk and germany is also within reach, we might even be allowed to bring some of our birds , which would be the icing on the cake


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Nignoy said:


> since leaving the army many moons agomy career has been based on wildlife be it in zoo,s parks, in europe and further afield, now as a retired old fart , I,m luckily in the position to live where I please that is why we have plans to spend a while in spain next spring ,to look for a little place to spend 6 months of the year, so my good lady is nearer the family in uk and germany is also within reach, we might even be allowed to bring some of our birds , which would be the icing on the cake


What birds would you bring? That sounds interesting...


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Nignoy said:


> since leaving the army many moons agomy career has been based on wildlife be it in zoo,s parks, in europe and further afield, now as a retired old fart , I,m luckily in the position to live where I please that is why we have plans to spend a while in spain next spring ,to look for a little place to spend 6 months of the year, so my good lady is nearer the family in uk and germany is also within reach, we might even be allowed to bring some of our birds , which would be the icing on the cake


Hey, you must come down to Cadiz/Costa de la Luz while you're over, it is the one of the best birding places in Europe! And property is very reasonable here.

We have a birdwatcher with a house in our village who comes over at migration times. Here is his blog: John's Alcala birding page


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> What birds would you bring? That sounds interesting...


He's in Oz so I'd guess parrots, cockies and galahs ??


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## Nignoy (Jun 4, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> He's in Oz so I'd guess parrots, cockies and galahs ??


I used to be a very active falconer and breeder for many years, and the flying displays in some our parks in europe used to be quite famous, I hope to be able to bring a small eagle(aquilla rappax) and at least 1 pair of our european vultures(Gyps Vulvus) which are still being used in flying displays in germany, nice idea too bring some cockies, but they are like my second wife cant shut the ******s up


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