# new law re healthcare



## Chris Sweetman (Jun 30, 2012)

Can anyone thow a light on the new law that came in on September 1st 2012. Does this new law mean that early retirees o are residents and are also tax residents .
no longer have to pay into the system, as I have been doing for the last 3 years at 90 euros a month. If you know anything could you let me know as I have just paid this month my quarterly bill of 270euros for the next 3 months and have not had the payment returned by the Valencian health system


Chris (Valencia)


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Chris Sweetman said:


> Can anyone thow a light on the new law that came in on September 1st 2012. Does this new law mean that early retirees o are residents and are also tax residents .
> no longer have to pay into the system, as I have been doing for the last 3 years at 90 euros a month. If you know anything could you let me know as I have just paid this month my quarterly bill of 270euros for the next 3 months and have not had the payment returned by the Valencian health system
> 
> 
> Chris (Valencia)


yes, that's correct - you can now get free healthcare 

have a read of this http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...itaria-sip-cards-new-rules-success-story.html


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

xabiachica said:


> yes, that's correct - you can now get free healthcare
> 
> have a read of this http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...itaria-sip-cards-new-rules-success-story.html


I'm still not sure about this.

I read that thread at the time and have re-read it again.

What has been said is that we have the same rights as a Spanish National (this has always actually been the case in law but has now been re-enforced). A Spanish person has NO right to health care unless;

They are making SS payments
They are pensioners
They are 'sin recurso'

So how can we be entitled to something that they are not. As an early retiree (therefore not a pensioner and not paying SS) the only way to get health care is with 'sin recurso'.


Unless, of course, someone can show and tell me otherwise.

Yep, I'm still very confused and can't see how a 'bankrupt' government can give something away for nothing...


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## Pico (Oct 30, 2012)

snikpoh said:


> I'm still not sure about this.
> 
> I read that thread at the time and have re-read it again.
> 
> ...



Actually, whilst I can believe that you may be unaware, and if you live in Andalucia, the regional government have stated that they will boycott the new rules, the reality is somewhat incredible.
Yes, in theory you can now be entitled to full healthcare if you are not working and early retired. Theres always a catch, depending on your "legal status". However, in a nutshell, if you were registered on the "foreign citizens register", that is, you have a Green Certificate, AND you produce "The legislative Letter", which you can obtain within a week from Newcastle, stating that you are no longer entitled to primary healthcare in the UK.... then you are entitled to full healthcare in Spain regardless.
Sadly, here in the Comunidad Valenciana, the authorities have cancelled tens of THOUSANDS of SIP cards overnight to force legally registered foreigners to choose between one country or another for their healthcare, as so many are still registered in both. Whats more, the original point of the new law was to disenfranchise 185,000 illegal immigrants, of which, Andalucia has a significant proportion. 
In the Costa Blanca, it is estimated that well over 30,000 genuine SIP cards have been cancelled, leaving dozens of people on life saving medications in limbo. Horrific.
However, whilst the implementation has not been thought through at all, typical Spain, the eventual result should be free healthcare for those already living here. Catch number 2 is, that if you havn't got your green certificate, before 24th April, you will now have to be working, or have private medical insurance to obtain one. 
Viva España!

Pico


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Pico said:


> Actually, whilst I can believe that you may be unaware, and if you live in Andalucia, the regional government have stated that they will boycott the new rules, the reality is somewhat incredible.
> Yes, in theory you can now be entitled to full healthcare if you are not working and early retired. Theres always a catch, depending on your "legal status". However, in a nutshell, if you were registered on the "foreign citizens register", that is, you have a Green Certificate, AND you produce "The legislative Letter", which you can obtain within a week from Newcastle, stating that you are no longer entitled to primary healthcare in the UK.... then you are entitled to full healthcare in Spain regardless.
> Sadly, here in the Comunidad Valenciana, the authorities have cancelled tens of THOUSANDS of SIP cards overnight to force legally registered foreigners to choose between one country or another for their healthcare, as so many are still registered in both. Whats more, the original point of the new law was to disenfranchise 185,000 illegal immigrants, of which, Andalucia has a significant proportion.
> In the Costa Blanca, it is estimated that well over 30,000 genuine SIP cards have been cancelled, leaving dozens of people on life saving medications in limbo. Horrific.
> ...



Regular forum followers will know my history regarding SIP cards so I won't bore you again. Suffice to say that we have been here 6 years and so have green certificates, we also have the letter from UK stating that we pay no tax there and have no health care provision in UK (these are not issued for children however).

The Valencian government will NOT give SIP cards to children without this letter which the UK will NOT issue! They have not (in the past) issued a SIP card based on the paperwork we have supplied. They also will not simply give SIP cards to the children (under Ley de Menores) without us being some how covered as well. (So much for people saying that children must be covered by EU law!)

I am willing to try just once more as many people on this forum seem to believe that the rules have changed and that we should be able to get cover now for free - I'm not holding my breath though!

Here's hoping.


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## Pico (Oct 30, 2012)

Snikpoh

Whilst I understand your exasperation, I assure you I have every single piece of proof you need to obtain the said SIP cards, both for yourselves and children. I have researched and written articles on this in the last 2 weeks. Please bear in mind that the new law came into force on the 1st September, superceding all previous. I have it in black & white, albeit in Spanish, from the very "real decreto" itself, AND the updated info on the Social Security website.
People here in Costa Blanca ARE obtaining cards right now under the new rules.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

snikpoh said:


> Regular forum followers will know my history regarding SIP cards so I won't bore you again. Suffice to say that we have been here 6 years and so have green certificates, we also have the letter from UK stating that we pay no tax there and have no health care provision in UK (these are not issued for children however).
> 
> The Valencian government will NOT give SIP cards to children without this letter which the UK will NOT issue! They have not (in the past) issued a SIP card based on the paperwork we have supplied. They also will not simply give SIP cards to the children (under Ley de Menores) without us being some how covered as well. (So much for people saying that children must be covered by EU law!)
> 
> ...


I agree - I have no idea how they will pay for this

but we've had two posters do it _just on this forum_ , one of whom I know personally & lives in the same region as us

so it _is _possible


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

snikpoh you should make a complaint , especially over the refusal to register the children,using the 'hojas de rclamación ' & through the EU SOLVIT process. You can actually ask them to take the case on for you & they'll do all the work. 
The two regions where people are having problems are andalucia & Valencia, The reason that Spain had to introduce the new healthcare system was the EU ultimatum over two regions not implementing EU rules on healthcare for foreigners........................Valencia & Andalucia !!! 

SOLVIT handles problems with a cross-border element that are due to bad application of EU law by public authorities within the EU member states


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

> However, whilst the implementation has not been thought through at all, typical Spain, the eventual result should be free healthcare for those already living here. Catch


This will not.. i am assuming..affect us when we arrive we will still be entitled to the 2 years from UK - (early retirees) and after that Private until pension kicks in. (at the moment)

is this correct or am I reading a thread irrelevant to our situation and getting knickers in a twist


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

cambio said:


> This will not.. i am assuming..affect us when we arrive we will still be entitled to the 2 years from UK - (early retirees) and after that Private until pension kicks in. (at the moment)
> 
> is this correct or am I reading a thread irrelevant to our situation and getting knickers in a twist


this is only relevant to those already registered & fiscally resident before 24th April 2012 - so it won't affect you at all

as far as the S1 entitlement - yes, atm you get _up to _2 years cover - if you qualify


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Pico said:


> Snikpoh
> 
> Whilst I understand your exasperation, I assure you I have every single piece of proof you need to obtain the said SIP cards, both for yourselves and children. I have researched and written articles on this in the last 2 weeks. Please bear in mind that the new law came into force on the 1st September, superceding all previous. I have it in black & white, albeit in Spanish, from the very "real decreto" itself, AND the updated info on the Social Security website.
> People here in Costa Blanca ARE obtaining cards right now under the new rules.



Thanks Pico - I would like to know more about your articles or maybe have links to the documents that you mention. Unfortunately I can't contact you until you have at least 4 (?) posts. Any chance you can post some links?


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Pico said:


> Snikpoh
> 
> Whilst I understand your exasperation, I assure you I have every single piece of proof you need to obtain the said SIP cards, both for yourselves and children. I have researched and written articles on this in the last 2 weeks. Please bear in mind that the new law came into force on the 1st September, superceding all previous. I have it in black & white, albeit in Spanish, from the very "real decreto" itself, AND the updated info on the Social Security website.
> People here in Costa Blanca ARE obtaining cards right now under the new rules.



& so does snikpoh & has used them & been refused on numerous occasions. 
When faced with abject refusal to implement the rules correctly, either through ignorance or management instruction ,then the only recourse is the legal route/official complaint.
On another forum I use a member in Toledo whose neighbour works for the health service said they had been told to register those entitled but to add no beneficiaries whatsoever. When they pointed out this was illegal she replied " Yes we all know , but they are the instructions from above ! "


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## Pico (Oct 30, 2012)

snikpoh said:


> Thanks Pico - I would like to know more about your articles or maybe have links to the documents that you mention. Unfortunately I can't contact you until you have at least 4 (?) posts. Any chance you can post some links?



I working tonight, but will do my best tomorrow.

(1 more post notched up!)

Pico


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## bluerain (Oct 31, 2012)

Hi Out of interest when Brits move to Spain are they still entitled to use the NHS in the UK?


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

bluerain said:


> Hi Out of interest when Brits move to Spain are they still entitled to use the NHS in the UK?


No except in emergencies.Exceptions are people in receipt of an old age pension.


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## Pico (Oct 30, 2012)

gus-lopez said:


> No except in emergencies.Exceptions are people in receipt of an old age pension.


Im sure thats not quite true Gus, we have discussed this previously


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## Pico (Oct 30, 2012)

Summary article this morning in The Courier newspaper, Costa Blanca. Will paste link when this site allows me!

Pico


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Pico said:


> Im sure thats not quite true Gus, we have discussed this previously


I don't understand. I have always been told that once you are resident outside UK, then you MUST NOT use the NHS in UK as this is fraud and you can be charged/prosecuted for doing so.


Are you now saying that the consulate (et al) are wrong?


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## Jumar (Mar 14, 2012)

BUT one has to register after 90 days in another EU country. BUT that doesn´t mean you want to be resident there, just to stay for four or five months and then go back to your country of origin for the rest of the time. Then you can use the NHS as you are really a resident of say Britain, not Spain. It really is a mess.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

gus-lopez said:


> No except in emergencies.Exceptions are people in receipt of an old age pension.


would that be (logically) because their EHIC comes from the UK?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jaws101 said:


> BUT one has to register after 90 days in another EU country. BUT that doesn´t mean you want to be resident there, just to stay for four or five months and then go back to your country of origin for the rest of the time. Then you can use the NHS as you are really a resident of say Britain, not Spain. It really is a mess.


you can 'unregister' again when you leave Spain


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## Pico (Oct 30, 2012)

gus-lopez said:


> No except in emergencies.Exceptions are people in receipt of an old age pension.



GUS LOPEZ wrote: in response to Bluerain:



Gus, we have discussed this before on another forum. According to the site you often refer to, THE UK is NOT a signatory to the DUAL healthcare entitlement for pensioners.

EU - Healthcare for pensioners living in other EU countries -Your Europe

*Healthcare coverage in the country where you used to work
*
"You are entitled to complete healthcare coverage in both the country which pays your pension and the country where you now live (if these are different).

However, this applies only if the country which pays your pension is one of the following:

Austria, France, Netherlands,Belgium, Germany, Poland, Bulgaria, Greece,
Slovenia, Cyprus, Hungary, Spain, Czech Republic, Luxembourg, Sweden

The same applies to your family members.

*If you paid contributions in a country which is not in the list above, you will only be entitled to complete healthcare coverage in the country where you live."
*

The country where YOU LIVE, is classified as where you spend 183 days or more per year, not as indeed has been pointed out, obtaining the Green Certificate that merely declares that you spend more than 90. However, you cannot have the best of both worlds and have primary healthcare in 2 countries (with a few exceptions).

xabiachica: Your EHIC is only issued from the UK IF you have primary healthcare there. Pensioners EHIC are issued from the UK also. If you are of working age, have a permanent SIP card in Spain, it is issued HERE.

Snikpoh wrote:

"Thanks Pico - I would like to know more about your articles or maybe have links to the documents that you mention. Unfortunately I can't contact you until you have at least 4 (?) posts. Any chance you can post some links?" 

There is an article published in todays Courier in the Costa Blanca.
Latest Issue | the courier newspaper
Page 3.

Seguridad Social:Información útil
All you need to know about new law IN SPANISH. Final paragaraph also states that emergency treatment must be given to all foreigners not entitled under any other manner.

¿Quién tiene derecho a tarjeta sanitaria? | Cosas prácticas
Nice article, in Spanish, but "easy reading", again about new rights.

Queda anulada la tarjeta sanitaria de los inmigrantes ilegales
Another graphic article about regions that are REFUSING to terminate illegal immigrants rights. (oddly, and ironically, this was supposed to be the basis of the new law, NOT to target innocent EU citizens).

Pico


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Pico ,I agree with you on many points but the one overriding factor that many people do not realise is that under the bi-lateral agreement, which is still in force With Spain( but for some reason in not shown on the list here), & which is mentioned here ; 

[ARCHIVED CONTENT] Are you visiting the United Kingdom? : Department of Health - Health care

Scroll down to ;
People Entitled to Some NHS Hospital Treatment 

2nd & 3rd sections.

" Anyone living in a country with which the UK has a bilateral healthcare agreement (some bilateral healthcare agreements are limited to nationals of that country)."

" Anyone, or the spouse, civil partner or dependant child of anyone, who has lived legally in the UK for 10 continuous years at some point but who is now living in another EEA member state or in countries with which the UK has a bilateral healthcare agreement;"

Theoretically you would be covered . Getting it & arguing the point would be a different matter. 
The answer to why Spain is not on the list has just come to me. When speaking to the overseas healthcare team some while back they mentioned that it was still in force but is not shown on the list as it is assumed that if you live in an EU member state that you are covered by their health care system. Obviously many people , like under-age retired , etc; slip through the net. 

The only countries now shown on the 'bilateral' list are non ec ones.

Bear with me here as I am going from memory, but if I recall correctly the agreement states that 
'Anyone who is not entitled to healthcare in there own country ,nor in any country where they have previously been a resident is entitled to healthcare in the country in which they are now resident under the same terms as a national of that country '.
This was also a founding principle of the EU health rules.


Basically the whole lot has now become so complicated that it is unintelligible to the average person who doesn't expect to have to trawl through mountains of EU/national laws to find out what is & isn't available.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Pico, this , 
" xabiachica: Your EHIC is only issued from the UK IF you have primary healthcare there. Pensioners EHIC are issued from the UK also. If you are of working age, have a permanent SIP card in Spain, it is issued HERE. "

is not as cut & dried as it would appear.
If you are working & paying in you can obtain one on-line & receive by post, If you are registered under the ' not entitled in any other country ' you have to apply in person. 
If you are registered as' Sin recursos' they'll refuse you ! Here anyway . 
Totally illegal under EU rules as if you are in the system , for whatever reason, you are entitled to an EHIC card.


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