# Language issues



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

In Barcelona the number of fines for businesses working only in Spanish has risen




> The consumer code’s requirement that businesses publish all public information “at least in Catalan” has been around for more than a decade. Those who insist on writing signs, menus or catalogues only in Spanish can be fined anywhere from hundreds to thousands of euros, depending on company size or the quantity of untranslated language


In Barcelona, do it in Catalanâ€”or pay the fine | bambinoides.com

"The Economist" resalta el aumento de las multas lingüísticas en Cataluña


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

From the articles it seems that public material must at least be in Catalan, however companies can use whichever language they like in the office, etc.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> In Barcelona the number of fines for businesses working only in Spanish has risen
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If they fined businesses working only in English in some areas they'd have a field day....


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Chopera said:


> From the articles it seems that public material must at least be in Catalan, however companies can use whichever language they like in the office, etc.


I think there are certain "musts" that have to be fulfilled like the outside sign must be in Catalan, and Spanish if you like.


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

Spanish propaganda!!!


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

More than 99% of the fines are planned language in Catalonia not to use Spanish
Rubbish Poor Interesting Outstanding Very Good (1 vote)

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short URL
http://indirecte.cat/3455


Against certain stereotypes that surround must say quite forcefully that more than 99% of the penalties and fines provided for citizens and business language of Catalonia are not using Spanish. And then? How is the perception that "general" is the reverse. Well Here is the answer: A lie told a thousand times becomes a truth. Yes it is true, and understandable given the media machine in hand, the Catalan employers do not usually publicly denounce the hundreds of eligible deposits language regarding Spanish. Also, do not usually violate them, and if they do, and there are complaints, the action is much more radical removal of the product in question or licensed to act. In fact the controls are much more severe and can rarely act against the law. Interestingly, they are Catalan entrepreneurs who dare to violate issued a set of signs establishments not in Catalan. Suffice to say that the procedure for the Catalan is much softer: There are several warnings before deadlines and allowed considerable time to adapt to it and usually only act if there is a complaint, and in some cases all with either denunciation act. The requirement in the use of Catalan is scheduled in a few laws. In this sense, to make favorable treatment regarding the Catalan Spanish in Spain, there are basically the Language Policy Act and promptly of any one specific sector. Regarding the obligation of only hundreds of Spanish law, including the 221 requiring the labeling of products, warranties, documentation of the devices, usage instructions, signage machinery, PA in some sectors, mandatory labeling warnings establishments, information on prices in some sectors, transport labeling, documentation expeditious licensing, signage ...

Bernat Gasull
Platform for the Language, TRANSLATED FROM CATALAN WITH GOOGLE TRANSLATOR.


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## Helenameva (Aug 15, 2014)

Pesky Wesky said:


> In Barcelona the number of fines for businesses working only in Spanish has risen
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The first article is a cut and paste from The Economist, where the comments section has the usual ding-dong between Spanish and Catalan nationalists. One of the comments had the following, which I found interesting 



> Here’s a question: if there is such “increasing alarm” today about these events in Catalonia, why do the linguistic cases The Economist quotes actually date from 2008 and 2010 respectively? In this regard the magazine has sadly misled its readers. Something purporting to be news is simply based on two prosecutions that have been well-trawled by Spain’s cavernous right-wing press and blogosphere over the years. The estate agent Mr Centeno, understandably perhaps, seems to trot out the old “Taliban” line to every journalist who calls him (eg, El Mundo 04/03/2010, ABC 13/01/2013), although it makes one wonder if the more recent journalists do actually call him. And as for Mr R. Moreno the furniture salesman, his case may be even older (2008) but is still deemed as having “alarm” potential by some on the far right (La Razon 23/04/2016, La Gaceta 25/04/2016). Curiously, the La Gaceta article is written by another “R. Moreno”, and the coincidences don’t end there, because The Economist’s own story starts in exactly the same way as the one from La Razon: a nasty inspector enters a shop without being even slightly interested in buying a “house” - except that it’s not Mr Moreno, it’s Mr Centeno, and so in the original story it’s not a “house” but a “sofa”. Another fascinating common denominator between most of these stories and The Economist’s is Mr Francisco Caja, brought in by both The Economist and the Spanish right-wing press as the voice of reason, a “reason” which co-exists with his work as a patron of the Fundación para la defensa de la Nación Española – the Foundation for Defence of the Spanish Nation - and his anachronistic anti-Catalonia discourse in which he describes the Catalans as a “race”.


Despite attempts to supress the language and the people, Catalan and Catalans still keep going and getting stronger. I don't understand why they can't be left to get on with it. A lot of Spanish don't seem to understand that being told you're Spanish for 300 years doesn't mean you will feel Spanish. Catalans are distinct, they were forcefully taken over but have always felt different. The language is the obvious difference but it runs deeper than that.


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## Helenameva (Aug 15, 2014)

mickbcn said:


> short URL
> http://indirecte.cat/3455


I can't get your link to work, can you post it again?


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

Helenameva said:


> I can't get your link to work, can you post it again?


http://in.directe.cat/plataforma-ll...lunya-estan-previstes-per-no-utilitzar-el-cas


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

I can't read Spanish well enough to understand the Spanish articles or the Google translation, but I was able to read the English article that Pesky Wesky posted and Helenameva's quoted comment.

I'm trying to understand the Catalonian issues, and I often see parallels with the Province of Quebec in Canada. It's the only way I can relate, being a newcomer to Spain. They too have a strong separatist movement. They too want to be seen as a 'distinct society' from the rest of Canada. They too have a different language from the rest of Canada. Canada is officially bilingual French and English, but only Quebec clings to French as its first language. Quebec also has laws on signs, where all signs have be a certain size and percentage of French. They're coming out with new laws in Quebec that forces stores that have brand names in another language to also have signage in French. Here's an article about it, in case anyone is interested:

Quebec to alter language laws to require French on English store signs - The Globe and Mail

Anyway, I'm learning, little by little about my new country, even if to start I need my Canadian eyes to understand things.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

I guess a big difference is that, as you say, in Canada every official document has to be in French and English, apart from Quebec where it only has to be in French. In Spain every official document has to be in Spanish and the local language.

Unfortunately I think a lot of Spanish are now put off moving to Catalonia, or working for Catalan companies, because they feel that if they don't speak reasonable Catalan their careers will be held back. I don't think that's true of the private sector (I know a few Madrileños who have developed great careers with La Caixa for example, whithout the need to know any Catalan) however this fear is now out there.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Chopera said:


> I guess a big difference is that, as you say, in Canada every official document has to be in French and English, apart from Quebec where it only has to be in French. In Spain every official document has to be in Spanish and the local language.
> 
> Unfortunately I think a lot of Spanish are now put off moving to Catalonia, or working for Catalan companies, because they feel that if they don't speak reasonable Catalan their careers will be held back. I don't think that's true of the private sector (I know a few Madrileños who have developed great careers with La Caixa for example, whithout the need to know any Catalan) however this fear is now out there.


It's the same in Quebec, in that a lot of people can't move there because they don't know enough French. One of my brothers lived in Montreal for a few years because he did his residency at McGill University, and he only knew very basic French, but Montreal is about the only place in Quebec you'll get away with that. I love Quebec. but could never live there because my French isn't good enough to survive. Mind you, I thought the same of Spain until I took the plunge.


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## Helenameva (Aug 15, 2014)

The difference between French and English is big, but Spanish and Catalan are of course related, albeit estranged! 

I've still yet to meet a native Spanish speaker who lives here but is unable to understand Catalan. Or a Catalan unable or unwilling to speak in Spanish. I'm told they exist but not in my experience. I know some families where the parents prefer to speak to each other in Spanish, the kids prefer Catalan, and when they're all together a bit of both. Our house is becoming like that, with English/Catalan/Spanish all used. I should think it happens in a lot of households of people on here.

I witnessed a comical argument a few weeks ago at a train station. A lady complained loudly that the announcements were in Catalan, a man took exception and said, why not we're in Catalonia. She said, no we're in Spain. M: But the announcements are in Spanish too. How long have you lived here? W: 20 years. M: And you've never learned Catalan? Etc etc. The daft thing was, she spoke entirely in Spanish, he spoke entirely in Catalan, they understood each other perfectly.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Helenameva said:


> The difference between French and English is big, but Spanish and Catalan are of course related, albeit estranged!
> 
> I've still yet to meet a native Spanish speaker who lives here but is unable to understand Catalan. Or a Catalan unable or unwilling to speak in Spanish. I'm told they exist but not in my experience. I know some families where the parents prefer to speak to each other in Spanish, the kids prefer Catalan, and when they're all together a bit of both. Our house is becoming like that, with English/Catalan/Spanish all used. I should think it happens in a lot of households of people on here.
> 
> I witnessed a comical argument a few weeks ago at a train station. A lady complained loudly that the announcements were in Catalan, a man took exception and said, why not we're in Catalonia. She said, no we're in Spain. M: But the announcements are in Spanish too. How long have you lived here? W: 20 years. M: And you've never learned Catalan? Etc etc. The daft thing was, she spoke entirely in Spanish, he spoke entirely in Catalan, they understood each other perfectly.


That's a hilarious story and you really make your point. Yes, French and English are totally different. Mind you, Quebec French(Quebecois) has a lot of English words. I was at my language-exchange club last night, and we talked about Catalonian issues. One of my friends there is from France, and she was talking about how our French Canadian friend said his wife did not want to get fat, and he used a term that referred to animals, not people. She bust a gut. There is the same distinction in words in Spanish, as the Spaniards pointed out. But there is no distinction in English, thus in Quebecois they use the same word.

In Quebec, generally speaking, English is completely frowned upon, and many people won't speak English to you, even if they know it. So that's different than Catalonia. The same French lady was telling about how there's a place where they speak Flamenco, but the official language is French, but they are separatists and will speak English before they speak French, even if they know French. Perhaps Catalonia will become like that at some point in the future?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Helenameva said:


> The difference between French and English is big, but Spanish and Catalan are of course related, albeit estranged!
> 
> I've still yet to meet a native Spanish speaker who lives here but is unable to understand Catalan. Or a Catalan unable or unwilling to speak in Spanish. I'm told they exist but not in my experience. I know some families where the parents prefer to speak to each other in Spanish, the kids prefer Catalan, and when they're all together a bit of both. Our house is becoming like that, with English/Catalan/Spanish all used. I should think it happens in a lot of households of people on here.
> 
> I witnessed a comical argument a few weeks ago at a train station. A lady complained loudly that the announcements were in Catalan, a man took exception and said, why not we're in Catalonia. She said, no we're in Spain. M: But the announcements are in Spanish too. How long have you lived here? W: 20 years. M: And you've never learned Catalan? Etc etc. The daft thing was, she spoke entirely in Spanish, he spoke entirely in Catalan, they understood each other perfectly.


I'm on the management board of the local water company.

At the first meeting of the new board last September, the auditor asked if everyone speaks Valenciano. In Valenciano.........

I replied, in Spanish, that no, I don't speak Valenciano. After everyone stopped laughing, he said, again in Valenciano 'well you understood me!'

I do understand almost everything spoken to me in Valenciano, but they then all tried to hold the meetings in Castellano. Trouble is, it doesn't come naturally to them. Their first language is Valenciano, so they always end up speaking Valenciano. 

I speak in Castellano & will often then be replied to in Castellano...........

Stupidly, I used to take notes in English - but something had to give 

It's a 4 year appointment - I suspect I'll be speaking Valenciano rather well by the end of it! At least I hope I will!


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

I was in Denia few years ago and heard locals struggling with Spanish, also in Girona last year. Considering how close the languages are, and the fact that those people must be exposed to a significant amount of Spanish throughout their lives, I was quite shocked. It's pretty damning of the education they must have received.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Chopera said:


> I was in Denia few years ago and heard locals struggling with Spanish, also in Girona last year. Considering how close the languages are, and the fact that those people must be exposed to a significant amount of Spanish throughout their lives, I was quite shocked. It's pretty damning of the education they must have received.


It's happened to me too, and I mentioned it on the forum, but Helenameva who lives there hasn't had this experience, so perhaps it depends on where you go in Catalonia. The one that stood out for me was a young waiter in a tourist area who couldn't translate various options on the menu!! And he wasn't being awkward either, he just didn't know.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> It's happened to me too, and I mentioned it on the forum, but Helenameva who lives there hasn't had this experience, so perhaps it depends on where you go in Catalonia. The one that stood out for me was a young waiter in a tourist area who couldn't translate various options on the menu!! And he wasn't being awkward either, he just didn't know.


I guess they might not have been Spanish, but rather people who had immigrated to the area and only learnt the local language. I never met anyone struggling with Spanish when I lived in Barcelona I admit.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Chopera said:


> I guess they might not have been Spanish, but rather people who had immigrated to the area and only learnt the local language. I never met anyone struggling with Spanish when I lived in Barcelona I admit.


No, not in Barcelona


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## Helenameva (Aug 15, 2014)

Chopera said:


> I was in Denia few years ago and heard locals struggling with Spanish, also in Girona last year. Considering how close the languages are, and the fact that those people must be exposed to a significant amount of Spanish throughout their lives, I was quite shocked. It's pretty damning of the education they must have received.


I don't think the education system is poor, more I think if you don't use it often enough you lose it. A friend of mine grew up in Vic and admitted to me how much she struggled when she moved to Barcelona. She grew up in a very pro-Catalan anti-Spanish environment, nobody in her circles spoke Spanish apart from in Spanish classes at school, no tourists or immigrants. It's not that she couldn't speak Spanish but she was very rusty, she didn't use it. Plus I think the whole attitude towards Spain can be a big factor for some people. However, I think for a big big majority of people they are happy to swap languages because, as has been said on another thread recently, language is merely a tool for communication. Only when it's used to be divisive is there a problem.


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## Helenameva (Aug 15, 2014)

Pesky Wesky said:


> It's happened to me too, and I mentioned it on the forum, but Helenameva who lives there hasn't had this experience, so perhaps it depends on where you go in Catalonia. The one that stood out for me was a young waiter in a tourist area who couldn't translate various options on the menu!! And he wasn't being awkward either, he just didn't know.


Perhaps he just wasn't very smart, or hadn't gone through the education system here, or had a bad attitude. Was the restaurant in a tourist area? I guess not if they didn't have menus in Spanish.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Chopera said:


> I was in Denia few years ago and heard locals struggling with Spanish, also in Girona last year. Considering how close the languages are, and the fact that those people must be exposed to a significant amount of Spanish throughout their lives, I was quite shocked. It's pretty damning of the education they must have received.


The people I work alongside are perfectly capable of speaking Spanish, but most would usually speak Valenciano at home, & amongst themselves, so are simply more comfortable with it.

One of my children is more comfortable with Castellano, the other slips between the two without taking a breath.

Most of the schools teach both more or less equally here in Jávea.

I do know some older people who struggle with Castellano. During the Franco years they weren't allowed to (publicly) speak Valenciano, so it was the language of the home & they were determined to keep it alive. 

Once they were able to use it publicly again, they simply stopped speaking Castellano!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Helenameva said:


> Perhaps he just wasn't very smart, or hadn't gone through the education system here, or had a bad attitude. Was the restaurant in a tourist area? I guess not if they didn't have menus in Spanish.


No, I think we've talked about it before. He was a perfectly normal young lad working in a restauarant in a very rural area, but one that which receives a lot of trade from international climbers especially in the autumn. Didn't seem dim in any other way, was perfectly nice, he just didn't speak Spanish. Any menu that is only written in Catalan and one in an establishment where practically every day you are going to have people who don't speak the language and a waiter who can't help translate seems to be making a statement. We were on holiday, we struggled through with Spanish, French and English and ate ok, but the next day we went to the only other place in the village where the welcome and the languages were wider.
This is one example. There have been more. I have met people like this, some who haven't wanted to speak Spanish, some who have tried , but would revert back to Catalan almost immediately without even knowing it.
It happens all the time. There was a lady on the radio just now, an alcadesa from Galicia who talking about a climber who has got trapped. She said something along the lines of "Rescataron a sus tres compañeros durante la_* noite*_" on national radio. She didn't even know she was doing it. If she'd carried on she might well have used more and more Galician

You haven't met people like this, but I have

Many times it doesn't matter, if the person really does want to communicate with you and you with them then you'll understand each other. It's not something that has really affected me one way or another, but it has happened and I do think it's worth a comment or 2 and I do think it reflects on the attitude of the people and their education one way or another.

Ah another incident has just come to mind.
You know we spend a lot of tme in Bilbao, well a few years ago we signed up for a guided tour with kids in the Museo de Bilbao. There were supposed to be 2 groups one in Euskera and one in Spanish, There was only one woman and child for the euskerea group and so they suggested that they join the Spanish group. The mother argued the case that her son didn't speak Spanish. The over all feeling of the crowd, (There were quite a few people following the argument) was poor kid. What was going to happen to him if he only spoke Euskera! I was kind of rooting for the mum. They said there was a talk in Euskera so there should be one...


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> It happens all the time. There was a lady on the radio just now, an alcadesa from Galicia who talking about a climber who has got trapped. She said something along the lines of "Rescataron a sus tres compañeros durante la_* noite*_" on national radio. *She didn't even know she was doing it. If she'd carried on she might well have used more and more Galician*
> 
> You haven't met people like this, but I have
> 
> Many times it doesn't matter, if the person really does want to communicate with you and you with them then you'll understand each other. It's not something that has really affected me one way or another, but it has happened and I do think it's worth a comment or 2 and I do think it reflects on the attitude of the people and their education one way or another.



That's sort of what happens here - & I've experienced it at school meetings in the past as well. 

The other members would make an effort to speak Castellano for me, but would gradually slip into the language they are more used to using.

I have to admit that I do it as well. And I'm not the only one. If I'm in company where just about everyone can speak English, even if we are of different nationalities & all speak Spanish although not as a first language, gradually we all fall into our native languages with each other - or into English, since the Germans & Dutch are often more comfortable with that than with Spanish.

I'm not sure that it's attitude especially - it just happens.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> That's sort of what happens here - & I've experienced it at school meetings in the past as well.
> 
> The other members would make an effort to speak Castellano for me, but would gradually slip into the language they are more used to using.
> 
> ...


It can be an attitude,
It can also be the most sensible thing to do if you are part of another language group. 
I'm not holding up any flag for anybody, I'm just saying - it happens.

Iv'e just remembered my hairdresser (Spanish) talking about her time in Barcelona. She was married to a Catalan. She talks about the same things I've mentioned in different threads, people challenging you after a few months, "why don't you speak Catalan?" refusal by some to speak in Spanish, people speaking in Spanish and after a few minutes collapsing into Catalan. etc... All perfectly understandable in certain contexts and not so in others.
She did, of course, learn Catalan, but didn't always recieve understanding and support form those around her.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> It can be an attitude,
> It can also be the most sensible thing to do if you are part of another language group.
> I'm not holding up any flag for anybody, I'm just saying - it happens.
> 
> ...


Oh I'm sure it is attitude for some! Though maybe here in the Valencia area they aren't as 'militant'?

Or maybe it's a Jávea thing.......

Yes after a while (not months, maybe years), people will start asking why you don't speak Spanish, & maybe the woman in the veg shop will stop understanding when you just point & ask for potatoes rather than patatas - but thus far I haven't been asked why I don't speak Valenciano (yet) 

In fact most people are quite shocked when they realise I understand them & attempt a few words!

The other morning I was greeted & returned greetings in Valenciano in my regular bar. I can get a little beyond 'bon día com estas? & 'molt bé'

A Spanish lady I have passed the time of day with looked up from her newspaper with such an expression of amazement that I burst out laughing & explained that I understand but am struggling to speak. She was actually really impressed!


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