# could I be fined?



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

*I have a question - I live in a townhouse on the outer edge of an urbanisation.
I have 4 cats. There's a sign in the urb that the owner of any cat found 'doing its business' in the communal gardens of the urb will be fined 6000 €. 
Because I live on the outer edge of the urb & have a little garden which opens onto the street, I allow my cats into the garden & they go over to the waste ground opposite - in fact that's one reason we chose to live here.
I NEVER allow the cats out of the house into the urb.......... but since the gates are just metal gates with plenty of room for a cat to stroll through, they might sometimes go into the garden - I don't know - I haven't seen them there. Certainly the feral cats which live on the waste ground enter the garden that way.
Do I HAVE TO keep my cats in? I ONLY let them into the street. What about cat owners who don't live on the urb but whose cats go through the gate? Can they be fined too, since there is no attempt on the part of the urb to stop cats entering?
Can this fine actually be levied just because I live here, rather than on the urb next door?*


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

Well I think it is extremely unlikely as this is yet another of those laws which would be very difficult to impose. Are your cats collared with name tags, address and telephone number? If not proving it was your cat who did the business would be close to impossible. The only signs we have around here is regarding dogs and the fine is €250 if caught allowing your dog to foul the streets. €6000 seems a bit steep to me.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

I agree with Thrax, altho is there a residents association you could ask??? 6000€ is a lot of money, they'd surely need some conclusive photographic/DNA evidence to be certain whose "business" it is??????

Jo xxx


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## xicoalc (Apr 20, 2010)

thrax said:


> Well I think it is extremely unlikely as this is yet another of those laws which would be very difficult to impose. Are your cats collared with name tags, address and telephone number? If not proving it was your cat who did the business would be close to impossible. The only signs we have around here is regarding dogs and the fine is €250 if caught allowing your dog to foul the streets. €6000 seems a bit steep to me.


 €6000 does seem a bit steep doesn't it! I tend to agree with your opinion. Incidentally, I heard on talk radio Europe the other day that they are considering introducing DNA testing system for when dogs foul in the UK. They want to eventually have the DNA of every dog kept on file from when it is a puppy so they can cross match LOL – just think of the financial implications of putting something like that into to place


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

thrax said:


> Well I think it is extremely unlikely as this is yet another of those laws which would be very difficult to impose. Are your cats collared with name tags, address and telephone number? If not proving it was your cat who did the business would be close to impossible. The only signs we have around here is regarding dogs and the fine is €250 if caught allowing your dog to foul the streets. €6000 seems a bit steep to me.


this is the resident assoc/ urb/community ruling

my cats do have collars - no tags though


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

xabiachica said:


> this is the resident assoc/ urb/community ruling
> 
> my cats do have collars - no tags though


 So how are they planning to prove whose **** it is if they find some and how are they then going to implement and justify such a huge fine????

Jo xxxx


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jojo said:


> So how are they planning to prove whose **** it is if they find some and how are they then going to implement and justify such a huge fine????
> 
> Jo xxxx


lord knows!!!


my doorbell did ring yesterday - I was in the shower & the girls were both in their PJs, so didn't answer it

maybe they're tightening it up & saying that no cats are even allowed in the urb - oddly there wasn't a cat to be seen this morning - & neither was the notice on the noticeboard - it has been there ever since we moved in, which is why I don't let my cats out of the house directly into the urb 


surely it can't be illegal for me to allow them into the street?

& if they wander into the urb surely I can't be held responsible?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

If they're going to implement such a tough ruling, with such a high penalty then they need to seriously fence off the garden - what about strays??? What about cats from neighbouring urbs?? My experience of cats is *they* make their own boundaries and decide where their toilet is!!!!!!!

Dont worry hun, even if your cats stray onto the garden, its not gonna be easy for anyone to prove whether they take a dump there or not lol - if they do, surely you could send a daughter out with a bag and a poop scoop???!! It sounds crazy to me, I wonder why they came up with such a high penalty??? IMO 600€ would be excessive for that - its only a bit of poo afterall. Roses thrive on it!!!!!! ...... and who on earth is going to police it???........ and who gets the 6000€???........ and is it 6000€ per ****???

Jo xxx


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jojo said:


> If they're going to implement such a tough ruling, with such a high penalty then they need to seriously fence off the garden - what about strays??? What about cats from neighbouring urbs?? My experience of cats is *they* make their own boundaries and decide where their toilet is!!!!!!!
> 
> Dont worry hun, even if your cats stray onto the garden, its not gonna be easy for anyone to prove whether they take a dump there or not lol - if they do, surely you could send a daughter out with a bag and a poop scoop???!! It sounds crazy to me, I wonder why they came up with such a high penalty??? IMO 600€ would be excessive for that - its only a bit of poo afterall. Roses thrive on it!!!!!! ...... and who on earth is going to police it???........ and who gets the 6000€???
> 
> Jo xxx


my point exactly!!

if they are serious they need to make the entire urb inaccessible to cats from outside - maybe that's what they'll spend the first fine on - though it's a huge urb & would cost far more than that to re-fence

I've never seen one of my cats in the communal garden - on the odd occasion they've 'escaped' from the house directly into the urb they are back in my garden (street side) within seconds!!


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## xicoalc (Apr 20, 2010)

jojo said:


> If they're going to implement such a tough ruling, with such a high penalty then they need to seriously fence off the garden - what about strays??? What about cats from neighbouring urbs?? My experience of cats is *they* make their own boundaries and decide where their toilet is!!!!!!!
> 
> Dont worry hun, even if your cats stray onto the garden, its not gonna be easy for anyone to prove whether they take a dump there or not lol - if they do, surely you could send a daughter out with a bag and a poop scoop???!! It sounds crazy to me, I wonder why they came up with such a high penalty??? IMO 600€ would be excessive for that - its only a bit of poo afterall. Roses thrive on it!!!!!! ...... and who on earth is going to police it???........ and who gets the 6000€???........ and is it 6000€ per ****???
> 
> Jo xxx


It surely has to be some kind of comminidad weird rule that they just cannot implement – you know what these people are like – they think they are God but at the end of the day even if I walk one of my dogs down the street and it creates a mess on a public highway the fine would never be anywhere near that and I cannot imagine the police nor the authorities of any nature getting involved over a piece of poo on private land – that would be a civil matter which would be enormously difficult to prove and then of course enforce.

Anyway, in my experience of having's they always go somewhere very quiet and discreet if they want to go to the toilet so I doubt that anybody would actually see them doing anything anyway. My biggest concern would not be the €6000 but more likely if anybody – especially Spanish who do not like animals were to put down poison. I've heard of this happening both for cats and stray dogs so do be careful. I completely agree with Jo that it's impossible to compare a dog with a cat will stop dogs are designed ( if I can use the word designed) to stay within the boundaries of your home and this is what we have fences for but my Who passed away last year was for ever going wandering even though we have fences that at all enough to keep in my three big dogs. Cats will always find a way to get to where they want to be and so I think it is unrealistic to put that responsibility of the owner.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

I wouldn't have though that cats swould be much of a problem since they are quite fastidious and tend to bury their droppings. Male cats spraying, of course is another matter. Dog droppings are a major problem anywhere in Spain because Spanish owners just boot them out the door to go and crap anywhere. We always collect ours in a plastic poo bag and dispose of it which pleases Spanish non-dog owners.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

steve_in_spain said:


> It surely has to be some kind of comminidad weird rule that they just cannot implement – you know what these people are like – they think they are God but at the end of the day even if I walk one of my dogs down the street and it creates a mess on a public highway the fine would never be anywhere near that and I cannot imagine the police nor the authorities of any nature getting involved over a piece of poo on private land – that would be a civil matter which would be enormously difficult to prove and then of course enforce.
> 
> Anyway, in my experience of having's they always go somewhere very quiet and discreet if they want to go to the toilet so I doubt that anybody would actually see them doing anything anyway. My biggest concern would not be the €6000 but more likely if anybody – especially Spanish who do not like animals were to put down poison. I've heard of this happening both for cats and stray dogs so do be careful. I completely agree with Jo that it's impossible to compare a dog with a cat will stop dogs are designed ( if I can use the word designed) to stay within the boundaries of your home and this is what we have fences for but my Who passed away last year was for ever going wandering even though we have fences that at all enough to keep in my three big dogs. Cats will always find a way to get to where they want to be and so I think it is unrealistic to put that responsibility of the owner.


the woman who was doing the door-knocking yesterday is Dutch - she's the driving force behind this

the majority of residents are in fact Spanish - & LOTS of them have cats - & dogs

it wouldn't surprise me if she DID put poison in the communal garden - though I'm not too worried about my cats there, as I say, I'm pretty certain they don't go there

it is a community rule - & if I lived in the interior of the community I would either be keeping the cats in or in fact wouldn't have moved there in the first place

but I let them into the street - & there's nothing to stop them or any other cat simply wandering into the garden


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

A community rule is just that; it isn't legal and I doubt they would be able to force anyone to pay. Sounds like the work of a nut to me.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> the woman who was doing the door-knocking yesterday is Dutch - she's the driving force behind this


Which is rather hypocritical because, in my experience, there is a far greater concentration of dogpoo on the footpaths of Amsterdam than in any other city I've been to.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

it gets better .... a neighbour just rang my bell to let me know that apparently the POLICE have been patrolling the street to see where cats are coming from. Apparently the owner of ANY cat seen on the urb will be fined. This is ridiculous. It's not illegal to let your cat out into the street. There's nothing to stop ANY cat wandering onto the urb. Our cats are all spayed/neutered - at least we're responsible.

I'm actually worried now. I don't want to keep the cats in - one reason we moved here is so that they CAN go out. Short of turning the garden into a fortress with 12 foot walls there's no way of keeping them in it. I've never seen any cat poo in the garden anywhere in any case. There are lots of cats living in all the urbs nearby & feral ones on the waste ground opposite - they all wander in & out all the time!!


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## olivefarmer (Oct 16, 2012)

I thought all cats had to be microchipped as part of their vaccination programme. Our vet won't give the necessary injections without the animal having a chip. So it would be easy to "read" the cat to prove who was liable for the fine. 

I have got to say 6000 euros is a lot of money.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

olivefarmer said:


> I thought all cats had to be microchipped as part of their vaccination programme. Our vet won't give the necessary injections without the animal having a chip. So it would be easy to "read" the cat to prove who was liable for the fine.
> 
> I have got to say 6000 euros is a lot of money.


no, cats don't have to microchipped

our cats have up to date injections & are spayed/neutered - 3 of them are from a rescue centre & the other one was going to be drowned by the owner


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

If this was April 1st I'd be more comfortable with it. Don't the police have anything better to do? Or have they become confused with the term cat burglar??


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

thrax said:


> If this was April 1st I'd be more comfortable with it. Don't the police have anything better to do? Or have they become confused with the term cat burglar??


our local mayor, protección civil & ayuntamiento have facebook pages..........


I've sent them all a message - I await their responses


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

This is so stupid!! What about all of the stray cats AND dogs that hang around the rubbish bins?? (I assume its the same in your area as it was in ours when we lived there) Maybe they should be a little more concerned for those and their welfare than chasing owners of cats who _may_ wander into gardens!!!!! I'm certain that the police have better things to do than to patrol the area looking for cats who might be having a ****!!!!!!

Jo xxx


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

Phone the police & tell them that you have seen this Dutch woman crapping in the gardens.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

I have just heard from my lawyer friend - he's a Spanish criminal lawyer - that even IF they could prove it was my cat the community has no power to enforce a fine or any other kind of punishment - the committee can demand a fine - but you don't actually have to pay it - you can go to court to fight it

in any case of a resident breaking community rules, they would have to take that resident to court & a judge would have to order that whatever activity is taking place be stopped

in VERY SEVERE cases the judge can order that the resident be evicted from the community - even if they own the property


letting my cat into the public street isn't against any community rules, or actual laws


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

oh - I also told him that the cat owners are worried about poison

apparently - if the 'community' puts down 'rat poison' to kill rats (they aren't allowed to deliberately poison cats or other pets), without properly notifying all residents & a cat or other pet dies from poisoning then the 'community' could potentially be held legally responsible for the death


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## jules 123 (Apr 26, 2011)

Reminds me of the time I installed an ultrasonic device on the front of my house as I was sick to death of clearing up cat mess. Turns out the perpetrator was deaf so the mess continued. I did see the funny side, though, and it annoyed the hell out of my paper boy. (they can be quite painful to young ears)


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jules 123 said:


> Reminds me of the time I installed an ultrasonic device on the front of my house as I was sick to death of clearing up cat mess. Turns out the perpetrator was deaf so the mess continued. I did see the funny side, though, and it annoyed the hell out of my paper boy. (they can be quite painful to young ears)


oops!!

as I said - I totally see why lots of cats in the garden could be a problem - & I wouldn't move to an interior house on this urb, because of the rules, or if I did, I'd keep the cats in (& I woudn't have 4 either - we only took in the last 2 because they _can_ go out into our private garden & across to the waste-ground opposite)


anyway - the ayto has replied to my question - there have been no police patrols for this reason & nor will there be - it's not illegal for my cats to go out into the street


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> oops!!
> 
> as I said - I totally see why lots of cats in the garden could be a problem - & I wouldn't move to an interior house on this urb, because of the rules, or if I did, I'd keep the cats in (& I woudn't have 4 either - we only took in the last 2 because they _can_ go out into our private garden & across to the waste-ground opposite)
> 
> ...


Which, unfortunately, doesn't stop the malcontent from putting down poison which can be a problem even here in the village where it has been known for persons unknown to put out poisoned biscuits in the street. When the Spaniards have the habit of just kicking their animals out into the street each day to do what ever they want to do, other people have to put up with droppings outside their houses and pee against their walls/front door. There is some animal that does huge caca about two inches in diameter out in our bit of street that we often have to clean up. and then there's la mula!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> Which, unfortunately, doesn't stop the malcontent from putting down poison which can be a problem even here in the village where it has been known for persons unknown to put out poisoned biscuits in the street. When the Spaniards have the habit of just kicking their animals out into the street each day to do what ever they want to do, other people have to put up with droppings outside their houses and pee against their walls/front door. There is some animal that does huge caca about two inches in diameter out in our bit of street that we often have to clean up. and then there's la mula!


no it doesn't - although if it was 'community sanctioned' there would be legal redress against the community

if it wasn't - & it was just this woman acting alone I guess there would be the problem of proving it 

I don't believe cats should be shut indoors, & it's all but impossible to stop them going where they shouldn't - but there's no reason to make it easy for them either!

most cats will avoid salt & citrus - I've both to work when I don't want them in my flowerbeds when I've just planed something new


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## CMBROOKE24 (Nov 27, 2012)

Sure it's not pesetas?

6000€ seems unlikely.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

CMBROOKE24 said:


> Sure it's not pesetas?
> 
> 6000€ seems unlikely.


brilliant!!!

no - they're definitely saying Euro - but now I know they'd have to take me to court to get it I don't care!!

I shall continue as before - being very careful to not let my cats into the communal garden but still allowing them into the street.

my house isn't even that close to the garden & pool anyway - it's a 'street' away


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## JaneyO (Sep 24, 2012)

I sometimes wonder how enforceable these 'community' rules are. We have some very small communities here, 10 or so houses, every one seems to have its own 'jobsworth' who decides everyone must paint their shutters a certain colour or paint their roofs white. Ours has a rule that people must keep their gardens tidy, that's a laugh, the worst one is owned by a local estate agent. What can they really do about it, are the police really interested in petty squables between neighbours? If so I suggest there's too many of them with too much time on th
eir hands. There's nothing in my house deeds about any rules or restrictions. Can they really make these things stick? As for the cats, like others have said try proving it, even a camera can lie I challenge them to distinguish between one black or tabby cat and another!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

JaneyO said:


> I sometimes wonder how enforceable these 'community' rules are. We have some very small communities here, 10 or so houses, every one seems to have its own 'jobsworth' who decides everyone must paint their shutters a certain colour or paint their roofs white. Ours has a rule that people must keep their gardens tidy, that's a laugh, the worst one is owned by a local estate agent. What can they really do about it, are the police really interested in petty squables between neighbours? If so I suggest there's too many of them with too much time on th
> eir hands. There's nothing in my house deeds about any rules or restrictions. Can they really make these things stick? As for the cats, like others have said try proving it, even a camera can lie I challenge them to distinguish between one black or tabby cat and another!


apparently there isn't much they really CAN do

the committee can decide to impose a fine - but you don't have to pay it

then they can, if they so decide, to take you to court - which of course will cost money.....& even then, a judge might decide that there's no case, so money wasted

in the case of a really serious problem I dare say a committee would pursue it 

I've relaxed now about the cat issue - I have had confirmation from a lawyer, the mayor & the ayuntamiento that it's perfectly legal for my cats to be let into the street - the mayor & the ayto have confirmed that there have been no police patrols looking to see where cats live .. quite why I allowed myself to believe that I don't know , but the neighbour was very convincing

my lawyer friend says that he reckons it would be laughed out of court if anyone tried to fine me for my cats being in the garden, since any cat can just wander in - & reckons he'd do it for nothing just for the laugh if it ever came to it!!!


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