# leap o faith>Puerto Vallarta, need safety net



## mikeyucell

57 bachelor (3x's), 90% retired HVAC controls+all round electrician/wanabee novelist moving to PV area about end of year(+-) (that is when funds are available). Friend of spiritual/meditation group in PV who have a center near Vista Vallarta Golf Club. Wishing to find a place nearby, but will drive an hour (+-) for what I need. I have been lost on the internet realty websites & that is why I contacted you expats. I have followed & understand the setback of PV, but wish to be there anyway>my leap of faith. Could you help me, or send me in the right direction in locating a place/honest realtor. Here is my want/need list in order of priorities. A safe place, gated or guarded or mellow area, no barred windows. Quiet & peaceful a must. A breeze is essential, more=better. A private pool>pool access, or both with ocean. You can see by now that horrid heat bothers me, but tolerable if I can take a cool dip and share home with a breeze/fan/AC. View of mountains or ocean or bay, just something inspirational to reflect on. Also have friends just south of old town & like that area. Some land + - fruit trees a wish. Will buy home & build own pool. Have 200k-225k max. Condo's generally too noisy & afraid of dues increases, but there are always exceptions. Gated community or separate villas OK. Don't forget the cool breeze. By now you can see I have great expectations, which I can not compromise>for now the hunt is on. I need to check out area, but without expats leading the way, I WILL end up like Humphrey Bogart begging pesos from John Huston. I thank you and wish to one day all get together for a mango shake and a swim.


----------



## TundraGreen

Good luck in your quest. My main suggestion is that you think about renting for a year or so before you buy. Your ideas about what you want may change as you come to better understand the options available in Mexico. A second thought is that $200K will not go very far in the coastal areas of Mexico nor in the popular places where lots of ex-patriots live. On the other hand, there are lots of places where you can get an awful lot of house for that price.


----------



## RVGRINGO

Tundra has said it all. If you really want PV, your nest egg may not buy all you have on your list. Sad, but true. "If you can't stand the heat,.................." You know the rest of the story.
I could only stand PV for half of the year and the other half is doubtful, because of the constant nuisance of time share salesmen and street vendors. Then, when a few cruise ships dump their thousands of 'sheep'......Arggggh! Eating out can be quite nice, but at three times normal, you can't do it very often. As you can tell, it's not for me. That said, there are tiny places an hour or so away, both inland and coastal, that could attract me for half the year, but I would still need an inland place at a higher elevation to escape the heat and humidity.


----------



## mikeyucell

*thank you*



TundraGreeen said:


> Good luck in your quest. My main suggestion is that you think about renting for a year or so before you buy. Your ideas about what you want may change as you come to better understand the options available in Mexico. A second thought is that $200K will not go very far in the coastal areas of Mexico nor in the popular places where lots of ex-patriots live. On the other hand, there are lots of places where you can get an awful lot of house for that price.


As you suggest, maybe I should rent month to month (w/o year lease) to give me more time to acclimate to the weather, people, and surroundings> thank you for that. I am, although, concerned about getting and keeping a visa, and I heard having an address is key in obtaining a proper visa. As far as 200k right on the beach, I know THAT one is OUT. But within walking distance is still an option. I am more interested in a breeze than the ocean, but a view and a pool are a must. As I mentioned, I could always find first, then build my own pool later. Any input is most appreciated, thanks again for yours. mikeyucell


----------



## mikeyucell

*and thank you also*



RVGRINGO said:


> Tundra has said it all. If you really want PV, your nest egg may not buy all you have on your list. Sad, but true. "If you can't stand the heat,.................." You know the rest of the story.
> I could only stand PV for half of the year and the other half is doubtful, because of the constant nuisance of time share salesmen and street vendors. Then, when a few cruise ships dump their thousands of 'sheep'......Arggggh! Eating out can be quite nice, but at three times normal, you can't do it very often. As you can tell, it's not for me. That said, there are tiny places an hour or so away, both inland and coastal, that could attract me for half the year, but I would still need an inland place at a higher elevation to escape the heat and humidity.


So, the great RVGRINGO appears, I am honored. I am previously aware of your view of PV, and am in your debt for being consistently honest with me now. (Side note, do you drive around Mexico in an RV? If so, where do you park/camp?) I have no need to go into PV except for food staples and will rarely be around salesmen/vendors/tourists, and am a vegetarian so I rarely eat out. I respect your view on the humidity, stifling does not equal happy. You must understand, I have friends in PV and would like to see them once a week(+-). So, great Master of all things Mexican, show me the way to tiny places MORE than a hour or so away, both inland and costal. How far is the nearest higher altitude nesting spot? I suspect me driving HOURS to PV rather than dying there in the balmy heat and wishing I had (driven there) is more intelligent. Keep the info coming, your friend, mikeyucell >> IS there anyone out there that loves Puerto Vallarta, or can show me the way around the numerous setbacks (heat/clutter/tourists)? Viva happiness!


----------



## RVGRINGO

Ha! I'm not sure I should mention some of my favorite places, so I'll only get close. You might want to look at areas to the north, beyond San Francisco (San Pancho), which has, unfortunately, been discovered by the developers. To the south, you'll have to drive further than an hour through the beach cliff clinging condos of southern PV. However, if you go far enough, Melaque and Barra de Navidad might attract you.
Inland, you can actually find the real Mexico as close as Mascota and in other nearby mountain villages. Hurry though, they'll soon be on the tourist trail, as is the tiny abandoned mining town of San Sebastian del Norte, which you'll pass along the way. Note that these mountain roads are so curvy that you often catch a glimpse of your own rear license plate! Buses and trucks take the longer and less 'scenic' route to the north, if headed to Guadalajara, etc.
No, I wish I still had our motor home, which we sold to buy a home here in 2001. Now, age is catching up with me and it is time to downsize. So, we're thinking of selling our home + casita in Chapala and getting another motor home, which we would bring to Lake Chapala and Villa Corona for most of the year, with occasional visits to the coast in the winter, when it is tolerable and we get a craving for fish tacos. Actually, we just had some really delicious ones for lunch in Ixtlahuacan de los Membrillos, not far from Chapala. However, the best place I know for coconut shrimp is in one of those little beach villages an hour north of PV. Ok, now I'm risking drooling in the keyboard! Go to Rincon de Guayabitos in the winter and ask for Toñitas on the beach. It is closed for the summer and the town is very, very quiet. Too hot & humid!


----------



## chicois8

Hola Mickey, I live for 6 months of the year about an hour north of PV in Rincon de Guayabitos, there are homes here in your price range here in town... 
To find cool breezes along any coast of Mexico for 6 months of the year is practically impossible that is why I am in San Francisco,California during the summer... 
Then finding a quiet place in Mexico is difficult, between trucks with jack brakes,dogs and chickens,well you see what I mean... not too many houses without bars even homes in gated communities get broken into on occasion...
I was fortunate to buy 4 years ago a 2 bedroom home with pool and 11 different fruit trees on a 50' by 150' lot 4 blocks from the best beach in the area the prices now have more than doubled since then into you price range....If you are down in the area in Dec. I would be happy to show you my little piece of paradise.....suerte


----------



## mikeyucell

*gracias amigo*



chicois8 said:


> Hola Mickey, I live for 6 months of the year about an hour north of PV in Rincon de Guayabitos, there are homes here in your price range here in town...
> To find cool breezes along any coast of Mexico for 6 months of the year is practically impossible that is why I am in San Francisco,California during the summer...
> Then finding a quiet place in Mexico is difficult, between trucks with jack brakes,dogs and chickens,well you see what I mean... not too many houses without bars even homes in gated communities get broken into on occasion...
> I was fortunate to buy 4 years ago a 2 bedroom home with pool and 11 different fruit trees on a 50' by 150' lot 4 blocks from the best beach in the area the prices now have more than doubled since then into you price range....If you are down in the area in Dec. I would be happy to show you my little piece of paradise.....suerte


Thank you. On the net found many places around guayabitos. Another near alta vista w. private pool. It must really be awful in the hot months, I've been hearing nightmare stories from everyone. What do you do with your property in the off season? I don't mind noise during the day, it is from midnight to six am that bothers me. You are the first person I talked to who likes north of PV. How far to PV in miles and time, & during the prime season also? Thanx for the info. ps... my second choice for a place is north of petaluma, ca... maybe I should split 6 and 6 months.


----------



## mikeyucell

*reply to mexican Master*



RVGRINGO said:


> Ha! I'm not sure I should mention some of my favorite places, so I'll only get close. You might want to look at areas to the north, beyond San Francisco (San Pancho), which has, unfortunately, been discovered by the developers. To the south, you'll have to drive further than an hour through the beach cliff clinging condos of southern PV. However, if you go far enough, Melaque and Barra de Navidad might attract you.
> Inland, you can actually find the real Mexico as close as Mascota and in other nearby mountain villages. Hurry though, they'll soon be on the tourist trail, as is the tiny abandoned mining town of San Sebastian del Norte, which you'll pass along the way. Note that these mountain roads are so curvy that you often catch a glimpse of your own rear license plate! Buses and trucks take the longer and less 'scenic' route to the north, if headed to Guadalajara, etc.
> No, I wish I still had our motor home, which we sold to buy a home here in 2001. Now, age is catching up with me and it is time to downsize. So, we're thinking of selling our home + casita in Chapala and getting another motor home, which we would bring to Lake Chapala and Villa Corona for most of the year, with occasional visits to the coast in the winter, when it is tolerable and we get a craving for fish tacos. Actually, we just had some really delicious ones for lunch in Ixtlahuacan de los Membrillos, not far from Chapala. However, the best place I know for coconut shrimp is in one of those little beach villages an hour north of PV. Ok, now I'm risking drooling in the keyboard! Go to Rincon de Guayabitos in the winter and ask for Toñitas on the beach. It is closed for the summer and the town is very, very quiet. Too hot & humid!


RVGRINGO, so, we meet again. Just checked out Mascota area, nice, but the weather trends with the hot/humid coast. And I just responded a person who lives in rincon de guayabitos... which still remains a good possibility, yet again they, even near the beach and with a pool, just couldn't stand the hotter months and leaves to cooler climates half year. The melaque and barra navidad are ideal and some of the places even have private pools. How long is that drive to PV in time? How would you rate guayabitos to melaque areas as far as easy living & nice friendly people? I realize the future massive constuction north of PV might pollute the atmosphere and highways. Also, since Mascota is still in the "hot zone" what is the next best bet, going east into the mountains, or do I have to go all the way to Lake chapala, which, I have found numerous very nice affordable places with lake/mountain views. You tell me, what is the primo town on the lake that is in my price range? What kind of drive is it from those higher altitude areas down to Puerto Vallarta? How long in time? One more question (I never run out of them) for now, what kind of vehicle should I have down in Mexico, diesel or gas, a volkswagon or toyota, etc...? Not type, but brand name, for servicing and economy? Once again, you wouldn't even know how grateful I am with your friendly advicelane:


----------



## chicois8

mikeyucell said:


> Thank you. On the net found many places around guayabitos. Another near alta vista w. private pool. It must really be awful in the hot months, I've been hearing nightmare stories from everyone. What do you do with your property in the off season? I don't mind noise during the day, it is from midnight to six am that bothers me. You are the first person I talked to who likes north of PV. How far to PV in miles and time, & during the prime season also? Thanx for the info. ps... my second choice for a place is north of petaluma, ca... maybe I should split 6 and 6 months.


Hola, 
Actually I did live there one year in June, July and August and I would just jump into the pool and cool off, I did have to cover the pool with a tarp because the water temp. got too hot but the shade worked perfectly. 

Since then I built a 5 meter long outdoor kitchen/BBQ area with overhead fan that acts like a breezeway right next to the pool and I have a shaded palapa on the other side of the pool...

During the off season I let my gardener/maintenance man and his wife to live in it in exchange for keeping it shipshape...

I can drive from my house to the PV airport in 30 to 45 min. depending on traffic...


----------



## RVGRINGO

I'll make this quick: I'm not sure of the driving time, PV to Melaque or Barra de Navidad, but you can look it up on 'rutas punto a punto', which is usually quite accurate. Mascota is more temperate than PV but the driving is slow and you should be fluent in Spanish. Even Colima, a wonderful small city, is too hot for us in the summer and smokey when they burn the cane. You also have to learn to live with the volcano warning usually at 'yellow'. Up from Mascota, only Ameca would be of interest, but still really small town Mexico. To find the 'mix' that usually attracts expats, yes, you'll have to come to Chapala; about five hours from Puerto Vallarta. There will be homes in your price range; mine is a bit higher, even without a broker's commission. The two most popular brands of cars in Mexico are Nissan and VW. If you plan to stay in Mexico for the very long term, you might want to consider disposing of your US car and getting one here. It makes life simpler.
Now, where did we meet?


----------



## chicois8

Hola RV, Remember this guy wants to visit friends in PV at least once a week, if he is in the Mascota area there might be slides during the rainy season that could close the road for long periods of time...Rick


----------



## mikeyucell

RVGRINGO said:


> I'll make this quick: I'm not sure of the driving time, PV to Melaque or Barra de Navidad, but you can look it up on 'rutas punto a punto', which is usually quite accurate. Mascota is more temperate than PV but the driving is slow and you should be fluent in Spanish. Even Colima, a wonderful small city, is too hot for us in the summer and smokey when they burn the cane. You also have to learn to live with the volcano warning usually at 'yellow'. Up from Mascota, only Ameca would be of interest, but still really small town Mexico. To find the 'mix' that usually attracts expats, yes, you'll have to come to Chapala; about five hours from Puerto Vallarta. There will be homes in your price range; mine is a bit higher, even without a broker's commission. The two most popular brands of cars in Mexico are Nissan and VW. If you plan to stay in Mexico for the very long term, you might want to consider disposing of your US car and getting one here. It makes life simpler.
> Now, where did we meet?


RVGRINGO, "meeting" before was a classic nemesis movie character's line, "So, we meet again, hare Doctor." (Just a simple mention of respect & feeble attempt at humor). No, we have never met before, to my knowledge. I will checkout Ameca, thank you. Why speak fluent spanish from day one? Does it display ultimate arrogance or pety disrespect or will I fall victim to violence or cheating? Surely, if I move to Mexico I will strive to pick up the language at my own pace, but how could I feel welcome in a place where the people are intolerant of newcomers. Remember, I was raised in the mean streets of Los Angeles and suffered through enough prejudice to last for a lifetime. I just want to live in peace, & far away from tyranny and ridicule, and taking on a new language at my age (57) isn't as easy as it sounds. My Dad once told me if you have to buy an extended warranty (instant fluent spanish) , the product (your new town) is probably inferior. To be on the safe side, I promise, I will try harder. :focus: On another subject, a VW diesel gets good milage. And a five hour drive is too far, but then again, I have to get a feel for both PV, north and south costal and Chalapa before I commit. Please, keep any and all information coming and I am not sensitive, so slam the hard words at me as well. And any other listeners, please chime in with any words of wisdom or regret in moving to, and living in Mexico. I consider all of you mi amigos. :juggle:


----------



## RVGRINGO

My comment on 'fluency' was simply to indicate that once you are away from the coast and into the small mountain villages, there won't be many other expats; if any at all. You would be in very rural areas and might not find many who could speak any English. With basic Spanish, however, fluency would come more quickly than in areas where there are a lot of expats, or on the coast where every 'vendador ambulante' speaks some English and every time share salesman speaks it very rapidly.


----------



## mikeyucell

*yo es el retardo*



RVGRINGO said:


> My comment on 'fluency' was simply to indicate that once you are away from the coast and into the small mountain villages, there won't be many other expats; if any at all. You would be in very rural areas and might not find many who could speak any English. With basic Spanish, however, fluency would come more quickly than in areas where there are a lot of expats, or on the coast where every 'vendador ambulante' speaks some English and every time share salesman speaks it very rapidly.


Roger that, RV, I'll keep my fluency rants to myself, el pardon. I realize when you get away from the coast and the big cities that home town Mexico is a treasure to be handled with care, and respected as well, and communication is muy importante. Hey, is there an internet site for quick spanish or could you recommend a proven "system". I just have the hardest time with my hearing as it is, and when people speak rapidly, then I really get lost. I suspect it is just one of my fears of being an expat to overcome. :focus: Checked out Ameca on the net. Nice place. I will definitely check it out when I come down for a scouting mission. So, I am down to La Penita area, Melique area, in PV w/pool & view, & if it gets too damn hot in the kitchen are there summer leases around chapala lake area? Thanx for all your info... till me meet again... viva Mexico! :ranger:


----------



## ExpatPumpkin

Rent a place for a year and see if it's really where you want to live. And Spanish will certainly come in handy - it is the national language after all  It's not that people in the rural areas will be intolerant or inhospitable, it's that they won't _understand_ you. 

Limited funds and limited Spanish definitely puts you in a catch-22 situation: If you move to the boonies where the cheaper real estate is, no one will speak English. If you want to be closer to other expats and English, real estate prices are at a premium.

Again, my very best advice would be to rent a place for a year... Don't tie yourself down to a property that might not turn out to be all that you ever dreamed of.


----------



## mikeyucell

*Pumpkin patch reply*



ExpatPumpkin said:


> Rent a place for a year and see if it's really where you want to live. And Spanish will certainly come in handy - it is the national language after all  It's not that people in the rural areas will be intolerant or inhospitable, it's that they won't _understand_ you.
> 
> Limited funds and limited Spanish definitely puts you in a catch-22 situation: If you move to the boonies where the cheaper real estate is, no one will speak English. If you want to be closer to other expats and English, real estate prices are at a premium.
> 
> Again, my very best advice would be to rent a place for a year... Don't tie yourself down to a property that might not turn out to be all that you ever dreamed of.


:clap2: I have a hard time wrapping my mind around renting for a whole year, unless it had a lease to buy option. I still think month to month is better, just incase I do find a "dream home", I would have to act fast to secure it, or loose it. :confused2: As far as the language is concerned, thank you for your input. I really do have a slight hearing problem and when people speak fast, well, it might as well be Martian. I am seeking shortcuts to the Spanish language if you have any ideas. Otherwise, for now when I visit, maybe I should dye my hair green and act as though I am from Mars (which isn't hard for me to do), at least I will get a few smiles. Or, I could pretend I speak an Asian language to throw off the scent that I am just a challenged ******. No one understands me in Seal Beach as it is, and I speak near perfect English here. Maybe I should shut up and learn sign language. For now, viva espanol! :eyebrows: And keep any ideas coming my way, God knows I need some intelligence in my life. :ranger:


----------



## TundraGreen

mikeyucell said:


> :clap2: I have a hard time wrapping my mind around renting for a whole year, unless it had a lease to buy option. I still think month to month is better, just incase I do find a "dream home", I would have to act fast to secure it, or loose it. :confused2: As far as the language is concerned, thank you for your input. I really do have a slight hearing problem and when people speak fast, well, it might as well be Martian. I am seeking shortcuts to the Spanish language if you have any ideas. Otherwise, for now when I visit, maybe I should dye my hair green and act as though I am from Mars (which isn't hard for me to do), at least I will get a few smiles. Or, I could pretend I speak an Asian language to throw off the scent that I am just a challenged ******. No one understands me in Seal Beach as it is, and I speak near perfect English here. Maybe I should shut up and learn sign language. For now, viva espanol! :eyebrows: And keep any ideas coming my way, God knows I need some intelligence in my life. :ranger:


I am going to be blunt. So forgive me and ignore me if you don't want to hear this or I am wrong.

This sounds like a disaster in the making. I predict that a year after moving to Mexico, you will decide it is not for you. If you are lucky you will sell the house at a loss and move back to the US. If you are unlucky, you won't be able to sell the house. 

Why do I predict this? You don't want to take some time to learn what it is like in Mexico. It is a different country and culture. There are lots of different lifestyles here. You may not like any of them. Renting can be as cheap as a couple of hundred dollars a month, but you seem unwilling to invest the time into seeing what it is like before tying yourself down to one house in one location. You are looking for shortcuts to learning the language. I have been here two and a half years and I am still struggling to learn the language. I don't have any hearing disabilities but I still have trouble understanding people. You can get by with poor language skills, that is not the problem. But coming here thinking there is a magic solution is a problem. After a few months you will be frustrated and ready to leave.

I have seen this happen to two of my friends and one of them is fluent in Spanish. They committed to living in an environment that was new to them, one in Guanajuato and one in Panama City, and within a year were back in the US.

My two cents and worth just what you paid for it.

Will


----------



## mikeyucell

TundraGreen said:


> I am going to be blunt. So forgive me and ignore me if you don't want to hear this or I am wrong.
> 
> This sounds like a disaster in the making. I predict that a year after moving to Mexico, you will decide it is not for you. If you are lucky you will sell the house at a loss and move back to the US. If you are unlucky, you won't be able to sell the house.
> 
> Why do I predict this? You don't want to take some time to learn what it is like in Mexico. It is a different country and culture. There are lots of different lifestyles here. You may not like any of them. Renting can be as cheap as a couple of hundred dollars a month, but you seem unwilling to invest the time into seeing what it is like before tying yourself down to one house in one location. You are looking for shortcuts to learning the language. I have been here two and a half years and I am still struggling to learn the language. I don't have any hearing disabilities but I still have trouble understanding people. You can get by with poor language skills, that is not the problem. But coming here thinking there is a magic solution is a problem. After a few months you will be frustrated and ready to leave.
> 
> I have seen this happen to two of my friends and one of them is fluent in Spanish. They committed to living in an environment that was new to them, one in Guanajuato and one in Panama City, and within a year were back in the US.
> 
> My two cents and worth just what you paid for it.
> 
> Will


:clap2: Love your hard words, but you have the wrong person. I have been committed to moving to Mexico since I was 8 years old when my family summered there year after year. I love the people and the culture, much more than I ever loved the States. What I am having trouble with is finding a suitable location. As for the language, I just do not think words are the most important form of communication, ask anyone at the Helen Keller foundation. I have worked with Mexicans everyday for the last 30 years in construction and my mind is filled with wonderful and inspiring stories of their home land, and there determination to one day, return to the land of their birth. :focus: As far the month to month renting and turning tail and running back to the States? There is nothing in the States for me except ex-wives, dead relatives, huge land taxes, overpriced medical care, the NRA, etc... And in Mexico, well, last year when I came for a visit, it was the hottest time of the year and I actually felt quite comfortable, and made new friends where ever I went, and only a few of them understood English, and I had no problem whatsoever. I am not an exception to the rule of fluency, I just know sometimes a smile and hand gestures work equally as well, if not better than garbled Spanish. Thanks for the response, you just do not know my intensions very well. I am committed to my friends in PV and to me, honoring and sharing my life with those friends is my secure foundation in Mexico. i will continue to seek shortcuts to learning Spanish, in the meantime, I will be traditional. I only wish I would have spoken more of it here in the States. Hope to hear more from you, Tundragreen. :ranger:


----------



## sunnyvmx

Sometimes it's hard to give advice that you know someone won't appreciate or doesn't want to hear. No one likes to have cold water thrown on their plans, dousing the excitement that's keeping them awake nights. Still, you are doing them a favor that's entirely necessary and hope that they don't kill the messenger. Some mistakes are costly and if you can ill afford them, then by all means take a step back and be cautious.

It helps to know oneself in this matter of finding the perfect place to live and even then ask yourself just how flexible and adaptable you truly are. I researched from my kitchen table for much of a year and then stumbled on the website that spoke to me and I packed up everything I own and drove directly there. The villas here at Tepetapan in the entirely Mexican town of Catemaco proved to be exactly what I was looking for from the day I drove in the front gate. In the past two years I have not been disappointed, but most often pleased with my life here...well maybe the pool could be cleaner. Nothings perfect and I must remind myself that what's a paradise for me is not so for someone else.

What I'm trying to say is that the research paid off before I spent a dime and listening to the voice of experience and wise advice found in the pages of this forum and others can go a long ways to finding what you're dreaming of so don't be disappointed when someone gives you the honest and hard realities that you may find yourself faced with unexpectedly. Especially the advice that's given with some reservation, it most likely holds the most care and concern.


----------



## TundraGreen

I am glad to hear that. It sounds like you have spent some time here already. It wasn't clear to me how well you knew what you were getting into. I agree that lack of language isn't the problem. You can get pretty far on spanglish and hand gestures. What concerned me was that I thought I heard you thinking that you would find a way to learn quickly. Some people do, but a lot don't.

Do you have time for some visits. Spend a week in PV, stay with a friend but during the day go off on your own exploring the area either by bus or taxi. Come to Guadalajara, spend a few days visiting Lake Chapala and the small towns in this part of Mexico They are all easily accessible from Gdl by either bus or rental car.

How important is it to be close to your friends. Do you want to see them every day, once a week, once a month. That will dictate where you can live and your resources will dictate what kind of space you can afford. I took a wrong bus once in PV and got a tour of the back part of town where all the people who service the tourists live. The streets are unpaved and the houses are small. I would bet that you can buy a house there for the $200K that you mentioned earlier. But you won't have swimming pool or a view. You will have wonderful neighbors.


----------



## RVGRINGO

I'm pleased to see others jump in with suggestions and words of wisdom. My own laziness shows here, as I've lived at Lake Chapala since 2001 and am still not fluent in Spanish. I know that immersion might do the trick, but I haven't done it.
As for summer rentals at Lake Chapala; of course. We have both 'snowbird' and 'sunbird' seasons here. In the summer, many come from the USA, and even Canada, for the cooler temperatures here. A few come from the west coast of Mexico and some of them have second homes here. We know couples who have moved to PV, Manzanillo and Mazatlan, but moved back to Lake Chapala after a year or two.
So, the advice to visit and explore is something to consider. There are monthly rentals that are economical in most places, if you ask around and aren't too fussy.


----------



## MexicoKaren

mikeyucell said:


> It must really be awful in the hot months, I've been hearing nightmare stories from everyone. .


Hi Mikeyucell and others, 

I read this board regularly, but seldom post. I do enjoy the reality-based advice that is given here, especially from RVGringo. But I had to respond to this. My husband and I have lived in Bucerias (12 km north of PV) for 4+ years YEAR ROUND. AND - we do not have AC. It is not a "nightmare" in the hot months - it all depends on your perspective. 

There are several thousand people (Mexican) who live here all the time - OK? There are also a fair number of expats who live here in this wonderful little town full time. The summer months are actually our favorite time of year in many ways, because it is so quiet and peaceful. For the good of the community, we are always grateful to see the tourists and snowbirds return in the fall, but we do cherish our solitude during the summer, along with the wonderful summer storms.

Before you decide you cannot tolerate the summers, give us a visit. There is usually a breeze from the beach or the mountains, even in summer. And I have a friend who just sold her house (in your price range) and it is a block from the beach. Don't let other people decide for you...you might be amazed at how quickly you will acclimate - we were. We are only 20-30 minutes from PV, but a world away from the traffic and stress of the city. And most important, we have a strong, supportive expat communiity who will quickly become like family if you let them.


----------



## RVGRINGO

Bucerias is quite nice and it is stretched out along the beach. If you can afford to get to within a block or two of the beach; or further if up on the side of a nearby hill, it can be tolerable in the summer. The problem is the cost of such real estate and the salty environment.
Don't get me wrong; I'm the guy who lived on a sailboat in the tropics from North America to the South Pacific. However, at retirement age, we don't adapt well to heat, humidity and elevations much over a mile high. I do suggest that anyone really research any beach or high mountain area, in person, without expensive AC or a furnace, for at least an entire year, before buying.


----------



## mikeyucell

sunnyvmx said:


> Sometimes it's hard to give advice that you know someone won't appreciate or doesn't want to hear. No one likes to have cold water thrown on their plans, dousing the excitement that's keeping them awake nights. Still, you are doing them a favor that's entirely necessary and hope that they don't kill the messenger. Some mistakes are costly and if you can ill afford them, then by all means take a step back and be cautious.
> 
> It helps to know oneself in this matter of finding the perfect place to live and even then ask yourself just how flexible and adaptable you truly are. I researched from my kitchen table for much of a year and then stumbled on the website that spoke to me and I packed up everything I own and drove directly there. The villas here at Tepetapan in the entirely Mexican town of Catemaco proved to be exactly what I was looking for from the day I drove in the front gate. In the past two years I have not been disappointed, but most often pleased with my life here...well maybe the pool could be cleaner. Nothings perfect and I must remind myself that what's a paradise for me is not so for someone else.
> 
> What I'm trying to say is that the research paid off before I spent a dime and listening to the voice of experience and wise advice found in the pages of this forum and others can go a long ways to finding what you're dreaming of so don't be disappointed when someone gives you the honest and hard realities that you may find yourself faced with unexpectedly. Especially the advice that's given with some reservation, it most likely holds the most care and concern.


:juggle: Thank you for understanding and shooting from the hip. I have entrenched myself into this forum and appreciate each and every word of advice given to me, hard or easy, I dig it all. I am far from perfect (my 3 ex's can testify to that), & going off about the sultry heat & the language over and over again IS productive in a back alley way. I enjoy different viewpoints, as I only have one, & at times it is very self contained, repetitious, & shallow. I am grateful to have found in these forums, "the real experts, guides, and Masters" of what I seek. :focus: I have possibly up to several months before I am ready to go down there to scout out the "greater" (3 hour radius) Puerto Vallarta area. Just as you sat in your kitchen & researched for an entire year before you made your quest, so am I trying to learn and soak in every morsel of info that comes my way. Can you relate to me just how you researched? What were you looking for? Where did you find it (on the web?), and when and how did you make initial contact? And when you finally arrived, how was your Spanish and how long before you actually purchased? What were your main concerns in your choice, like weather or cost of living or atmosphere or views or golf or what? 
:ranger: You see, Sunny, without all (forum) of your help, I would be trapped in my own world, basically lost as I have been all my life, and just the thought of having a "fresh start" in Mexico is what keeps me going. Thanks for all your info, and please, feel free to offer more... I can handle anything after the 3 ex's + a life of hard knocks,  I just got off a reality website and the same houses, villas, and condos I didn't like a week ago, now seem very appealing, & the only thing that changed in my perspective is this forum. thank you all and have a great week... ps... any more buzz on the PV area that might help me in finding a happy home? Buenas Noches lane:


----------



## mikeyucell

TundraGreen said:


> I am glad to hear that. It sounds like you have spent some time here already. It wasn't clear to me how well you knew what you were getting into. I agree that lack of language isn't the problem. You can get pretty far on spanglish and hand gestures. What concerned me was that I thought I heard you thinking that you would find a way to learn quickly. Some people do, but a lot don't.
> 
> Do you have time for some visits. Spend a week in PV, stay with a friend but during the day go off on your own exploring the area either by bus or taxi. Come to Guadalajara, spend a few days visiting Lake Chapala and the small towns in this part of Mexico They are all easily accessible from Gdl by either bus or rental car.
> 
> How important is it to be close to your friends. Do you want to see them every day, once a week, once a month. That will dictate where you can live and your resources will dictate what kind of space you can afford. I took a wrong bus once in PV and got a tour of the back part of town where all the people who service the tourists live. The streets are unpaved and the houses are small. I would bet that you can buy a house there for the $200K that you mentioned earlier. But you won't have swimming pool or a view. You will have wonderful neighbors.


 Earth Verde, your words were like cream in my coffee. Although I can not break away until late fall, maybe I can seek away for a week or so earlier. And I will split up my time... a couple of days up to & around Chapala, up north all the way to San Blas, and down to Barra Navidad... oh, and a few days in Puerto Vallarta. I am excited just thinking about it... like what is behind door #3 is ACTUALLY going to be mine! Someday, if I persist and keep focused and have friends like you all that I have found on the forum. :clap2: I wish to see my friends at least once a week, on Sunday, & I can stay (a few days at a time) with them if I live too far away (but not every week). I just might have to compromise on an ideal living atmosphere vs. time with my friends. As far as Old Town PV, one of my closest friends lives just up the hill, on the highway south of town, and I spent many hours walking around on the cobblestone roadway and soaking up the atmosphere, unfortunately, it seemed a little muggy (air wise). But I did find a constant breeze down my the naval museum by the old town church and square.
lane: thank you mucho and viva viva! As always, keep it coming back, info wise.


----------



## mikeyucell

RVGRINGO said:


> Bucerias is quite nice and it is stretched out along the beach. If you can afford to get to within a block or two of the beach; or further if up on the side of a nearby hill, it can be tolerable in the summer. The problem is the cost of such real estate and the salty environment.
> Don't get me wrong; I'm the guy who lived on a sailboat in the tropics from North America to the South Pacific. However, at retirement age, we don't adapt well to heat, humidity and elevations much over a mile high. I do suggest that anyone really research any beach or high mountain area, in person, without expensive AC or a furnace, for at least an entire year, before buying.


:ranger: So we meet again, hare RVGRINGO, an honor as usual. On your last quote you used the word fussy. You are revealing your age, my Mom used that word a lot with me, God rest her soul. And I love your candor about settling in 2001 at Chapala and becoming complacent about Espanol fluency. :focus: Wow, I am learning about Mexico in leaps and bounds! I just saw several listings for Bucerias, and a lot of them seemed ideal. I like beach access and a pool to dip into, and being away from downtown is a plus. You hit a home run with your challenge, for an entire year in an ideal area, be it by the lake or ocean, WITHOUT expensive AC or a furnace (that one could me a little too intense). I fully understand what you are saying and would do it in a heartbeat, except for one thing... that always brings me back to purchasing without much thought... I am not a rich man and if I find something exceptional for a "great" deal, I would feel (in my bloodline) inclined to purchase it, IN FEAR that in a year I might be PRICED OUT of the home or the area altogether. This holds true in most resort type areas around the world as a PV native told me the costal areas go up in value 6% annually on average. Oh, great God of all things Mexican, how should I proceed with my preconceived notions and inherent "quick buy" philosophy? Help me wrap my head around your advice, as if I see a great deal, my mind obsesses and it is all over, remember, I have 3 ex's to prove that I have quick and often fatal judgement.  And can you tell me about the weather in the winter around the lake. :confused2: Till we meet again, hare RV.


----------



## mikeyucell

MexicoKaren said:


> Hi Mikeyucell and others,
> 
> I read this board regularly, but seldom post. I do enjoy the reality-based advice that is given here, especially from RVGringo. But I had to respond to this. My husband and I have lived in Bucerias (12 km north of PV) for 4+ years YEAR ROUND. AND - we do not have AC. It is not a "nightmare" in the hot months - it all depends on your perspective.
> 
> There are several thousand people (Mexican) who live here all the time - OK? There are also a fair number of expats who live here in this wonderful little town full time. The summer months are actually our favorite time of year in many ways, because it is so quiet and peaceful. For the good of the community, we are always grateful to see the tourists and snowbirds return in the fall, but we do cherish our solitude during the summer, along with the wonderful summer storms.
> 
> Before you decide you cannot tolerate the summers, give us a visit. There is usually a breeze from the beach or the mountains, even in summer. And I have a friend who just sold her house (in your price range) and it is a block from the beach. Don't let other people decide for you...you might be amazed at how quickly you will acclimate - we were. We are only 20-30 minutes from PV, but a world away from the traffic and stress of the city. And most important, we have a strong, supportive expat communiity who will quickly become like family if you let them.


:clap2: Karen that is my sister's name. But I'll overlook that fault, and thank you for your refreshing reply. Actually, I love my sister, even though she is dark/evil. Hey... you answered my prayers. Since I chimed in on Sunday, no one has related to me that surviving the summer humidity and heat near the Mexican coast is possible, and NOT that big of a deal. And without AC, I am impressed as I really do prefer fans. I used to spend summers (recently) on Shelter Island, NY, and it was very humid and hot, and as long as I had a pool or the ocean to jump into, the heat really never bothered me. But I did not live on Shelter Island, and moving to Mexico is not only LIVING HERE, it will hopefully be the LAST place on this weird planet that I do live... so, I want to make the best of it. Thank you for all your info about bucerias... I just saw several listings there on the net, although most of them seemed to have a common pool and grounds, in my price range, the general area seemed actually kind of cool (as in acceptable). Once again, thank you for chiming in, as your words set deep into my confused mind :clap2:. viva bucerias lane:


----------



## chicois8

Yo Mikey, 

1. I live in Mexico 6 months of the year in a Mexican resort town, I drive solo around the whole country every year and I do not speak Spanish, I know a little, I use my hands and a smile usually helps me get the message through...Most all the places mentioned to you already are areas where there are a lot of gringos either as expats or tourists, so many Mexicans speak English to accommodate them...from taxi drivers,waiters,hotel staff to tourist police, all speak understandable English, so do not worry about you lack of Spanish at this time...

2. If you want to live near the beach and be within an hour or so of your friends in PV you will have to look north of town...cities like Bucerias, La Cruz, Sayulita, San Pancho, Lo de Marco, Las Ayala, Guayabitos, La Penita, Chacala, anything more northerly near San Blas are usually full of biting bugs...or out of the hour travel time...

3. Come down after the Christmas crowds have left maybe early January and check out the area ....good luck, Rick


----------



## mikeyucell

chicois8 said:


> Yo Mikey,
> 
> 1. I live in Mexico 6 months of the year in a Mexican resort town, I drive solo around the whole country every year and I do not speak Spanish, I know a little, I use my hands and a smile usually helps me get the message through...Most all the places mentioned to you already are areas where there are a lot of gringos either as expats or tourists, so many Mexicans speak English to accommodate them...from taxi drivers,waiters,hotel staff to tourist police, all speak understandable English, so do not worry about you lack of Spanish at this time...
> 
> 2. If you want to live near the beach and be within an hour or so of your friends in PV you will have to look north of town...cities like Bucerias, La Cruz, Sayulita, San Pancho, Lo de Marco, Las Ayala, Guayabitos, La Penita, Chacala, anything more northerly near San Blas are usually full of biting bugs...or out of the hour travel time...
> 
> 3. Come down after the Christmas crowds have left maybe early January and check out the area ....good luck, Rick


lane: Hey rick, the SF/guayabitos dude, #1. Right on page with you concerning the lingo. I have worked construction in LA, CA for 20+ years with Latinos & other espanolos, some who do not speak any English, and never ever had a problem with comunication... some times it was a bit of challenge, but never a deal breaker. The smile and sign language works just fine. However, when I migrate south, I will pick up the lingo... to fit in and to be able to help people whenever possible. #2. Biting bugs!!! EEEKKK!, thanks for the heads up on that one. When I get closer to the time I will be down there, I will "thread-up" on the forum about realtors in the area or basically the best way to connect with the real estate listings. I heard "they" are building massive resorts near San Francisco, Mex, is that north or south of SF? How far? And that they are also building another INT airport nearby, where is that going? I do not want to end up surrounded by time shares or perpetually annoyed by jet noise. #3. January sounds cool, but crowds don't much bother me either, unless there is a line at the bathroom or they keep me from getting a good nights rest. Hopefully I can get down there earlier, late fall or... Hey rick man, thanx for the info, and viva no biting bugs!


----------



## Johang

mikeyucell said:


> ........ What do you do with your property in the off season? I don't mind noise during the day, it is from midnight to six am that bothers me. You are the first person I talked to who likes north of PV. How far to PV in miles and time, & during the prime season also?


Guayabitos and all the communities on Jaltemba Bay are delightful with a very active and community minded ex-pat community. However it is and hour and a half to the airport on a two lane paved highway. Weather is the same as PV but the hills overlooking La Peñita have good breezes. Right on the beach is also pleasantly cool but out of your price range.

Windows have bars except in some walled condo complexes. Most people have someone live in their homes during the off season. I have a family living in my place year round.

It is a community which is still very Mexican. The main business is still Tepic and Guadalajara Mexican vacationers.


----------



## chicois8

Johang said:


> Guayabitos and all the communities on Jaltemba Bay are delightful with a very active and community minded ex-pat community. However it is and hour and a half to the airport on a two lane paved highway. Weather is the same as PV but the hills overlooking La Peñita have good breezes. Right on the beach is also pleasantly cool but out of your price range.
> 
> Windows have bars except in some walled condo complexes. Most people have someone live in their homes during the off season. I have a family living in my place year round.
> 
> It is a community which is still very Mexican. The main business is still Tepic and Guadalajara Mexican vacationers.


Johan, you write:

" However it is and hour and a half to the airport on a two lane paved highway."

From Guayabitos to PV Centro it is 43 miles, probably 3 or 4 miles less to the airport... unless there is road work delays or a crash there is no way it would take an hour and a half from Guayabitos to the airport unless you were driving a segway, I drive that road all the time and average 45/50 min......suerte


----------



## mikeyucell

Johang said:


> Guayabitos and all the communities on Jaltemba Bay are delightful with a very active and community minded ex-pat community. However it is and hour and a half to the airport on a two lane paved highway. Weather is the same as PV but the hills overlooking La Peñita have good breezes. Right on the beach is also pleasantly cool but out of your price range.
> 
> Windows have bars except in some walled condo complexes. Most people have someone live in their homes during the off season. I have a family living in my place year round.
> 
> It is a community which is still very Mexican. The main business is still Tepic and Guadalajara Mexican vacationers.


:confused2: I found a place on the NET listings that was near Alta Vista, about 2-5 miles inland from Lima de Abajo. The place was on a hill overlooking the ocean and had a private pool in my price range. I have a few questions if anyone knows the area. Here goes: If I get a place east of highway 200, basically anywhere north of PV up to La Penita, what is the deal with getting to the beach? Are the beaches open to everyone or are there restrictions; or are parts privately owned and unaccessible; is there parking; if I owned property on the hillside could I access the beaches; how can I find this information out>>> buy the Net or a realtor or the government (local)???? 
It would be a grand mistake if I assumed I had beach access, only to spend 200k+ on a home, only to find out I can not even access the beach. Also, if I owned a home in a small costal town, but not right on the beach, could I still access the beach? In Hawaii, the locals say the beaches belong to everyone, but if you try to lay down a towel on the beach at a five star resort, private security will escort you back to where you entered. And I am too far along in my life to deal with any such confrontations. Please, will anyone enlighten me concerning such basic "beach" educate. :juggle: And thank you Johang for you insight and info (and when they start to build the large costal resorts along the San Francisco beaches, and upon completion, I suspect highway 200 will be a nightmare and in prime season it might take a really long time into PV) lane: (then just buy an ultralight plane, but don't pull a John Denver)


----------



## Johang

mikeyucell said:


> :confused2: I found a place on the NET listings that was near Alta Vista, about 2-5 miles inland from Lima de Abajo. The place was on a hill overlooking the ocean and had a private pool in my price range. I have a few questions if anyone knows the area. Here goes: If I get a place east of highway 200, basically anywhere north of PV up to La Penita, what is the deal with getting to the beach? Are the beaches open to everyone or are there restrictions; or are parts privately owned and unaccessible; is there parking; if I owned property on the hillside could I access the beaches; how can I find this information out>>> buy the Net or a realtor or the government (local)????
> It would be a grand mistake if I assumed I had beach access, only to spend 200k+ on a home, only to find out I can not even access the beach. Also, if I owned a home in a small costal town, but not right on the beach, could I still access the beach? In Hawaii, the locals say the beaches belong to everyone, but if you try to lay down a towel on the beach at a five star resort, private security will escort you back to where you entered. And I am too far along in my life to deal with any such confrontations. Please, will anyone enlighten me concerning such basic "beach" educate. :juggle: And thank you Johang for you insight and info (and when they start to build the large costal resorts along the San Francisco beaches, and upon completion, I suspect highway 200 will be a nightmare and in prime season it might take a really long time into PV) lane: (then just buy an ultralight plane, but don't pull a John Denver)


Local realtor is a good bet look in the commercial section on the JaltembaJalapeno. The beaches really do belong to everyone here, no worries.


----------



## Johang

chicois8 said:


> Johan, you write:
> 
> " However it is and hour and a half to the airport on a two lane paved highway."
> 
> From Guayabitos to PV Centro it is 43 miles, probably 3 or 4 miles less to the airport... unless there is road work delays or a crash there is no way it would take an hour and a half from Guayabitos to the airport unless you were driving a segway, I drive that road all the time and average 45/50 min......suerte


I agree you can make it in a hour on a good day but for me those days seem rare. There is often a big semi taking the hills at crawling speeds and occasional construction. The new highway will solve that so future prospects are good. I do not know anyone who would plan less than an hour and a half for the trip to catch a plane or an important appointment.


----------



## RVGRINGO

A few weeks ago, there was some serious road rebuilding just south of Guyabitos. The delays were long and hot! I doubt that it is completed yet. Any word from you 'locals'?


----------



## chicois8

Johan, you write:
" I do not know anyone who would plan less than an hour and a half for the trip to catch a plane or an important appointment."

And I agree but we are not talking about anybody catching a plane, in fact most hotels advertise that Guayabitos is about 40 min. north of the airport...

Johan also writes: 
"The beaches really do belong to everyone here, no worries."

Beaches in towns are completely open but the state government has been fencing off large stretches of beaches (and leasing to large hotels) and making it very difficult for access, just look at the 7 mile fence from Playa Najaranjo(sp) to the La Penita Trailer Park... 1/2 the beach frontage in Chacala...Punta Raza beach...and many more....

RV writes:
"A few weeks ago, there was some serious road rebuilding just south of Guyabitos"

They are widening the road around the village of El Monteon for a development at PuntaRaza Beach for FOUNATAR


----------



## MexicoKaren

Mikey, you have exactly the right combination of enthusiasm and humility guaranteed to elicit sincere responses. I admire the way you are approaching the next adventure in your life - we also tried to gather as much info as possible before we made our move, but the sad truth is that there is no substitute for experience. But you probably already know that.

Jogang is correct (theoretically) about beach access. The beaches in Mexico are owned by the federal government. Sometimes they lease "access" to various entities, including resort hotels. You could buy your dream house on a hill across the highway, then a year later, see a condo developer come in and build high rise condos across the highway from you, restricting not only your beach access, but your view. That is Mexico - ask the beachfront property owners in LaCruz who (literallY) lost their beach when a developer came in and created "new" beach in front of them with tons of fill, then built condos on top of it. Of course, the developer's permits were not in order, but after the fact, who cares? Not much you can do about that, but be aware that it can happen, and you would likely have no recourse. These property owners have been in court for years, with no resolution in sight.

I was fortunate to sit in on a meeting with Nayarit Gov. Ney Gonzales and he seems passionately serious when he talks about preserving public access to beaches - the law supposedly requires unfettered access at regular intervals. Bucerias absolutely has that kind of access; you can reach the beach at the end of nearly every block. But Destiladeras Beach, also in Nayarit (between Punta de Mita and Sayulita), has been the most popular beach with Mexican nationals in the area and is now restricted by fencing - you can still reach the beach through a restaurant next door. Rumors fly, but I have heard that the area is being developed. Of course, money is short right now, so that may all change.

It's important to remember that laws in Mexico are not generally enforced the way they are in the US, and local governments are not particularly interested in citizen input. That is something you just have to accept when you make your move to Mexico. 

Let me ask YOU a question: in your first post, you said you did not want a property with bars on the windows. Why is that? Even the most humble Mexican home in our little town has bars on the windows. Some of the newer development (mostly for gringos) have US-style windows without bars. Inevitably, those properties suffer from numerous break-ins. Not serious crimes that involve injury, but loss of property. During the low season (like now), people get desperate and the petty crime rates go up. I would not care to live in a house that is not secured by bars on the windows...it is just part of the cultural difference. 

As for the travel time, Johang is correct - we have a friend who lives in La Penita and it is at least a 45 minute drive from our house in Bucerias to her house. Add another half hour minimum to go to Vallarta. The road up the coast is two-lane and windy, and also dangerous. Take a drive and look at the many, many crosses on the sides of the road. We have another friend who is a paramedic here - he tells us that accidents on Highway 200, especially between here and Sayulita, are often fatal accidents, usually involving people trying to pass on curves and having head-on collisions. I would not want to drive it regularly.

I'm not trying to discourage you - just telling you things that I wish we had known before making the move. As far as we are concerned, our move to Mexico was also our last move. We are happy here, and intend to stay for the duration.


----------



## RVGRINGO

Karen is absolutely correct. We also know that road, but not as frequently, and can attest to the fact that an hour would be on a very good day. Construction delays are not uncommon in Mexico as there are many roads that are being 'upgraded' to four lane highways; not always improving the neighborhood in the process.


----------



## mikeyucell

MexicoKaren said:


> Mikey, you have exactly the right combination of enthusiasm and humility guaranteed to elicit sincere responses. I admire the way you are approaching the next adventure in your life - we also tried to gather as much info as possible before we made our move, but the sad truth is that there is no substitute for experience. But you probably already know that.
> 
> Jogang is correct (theoretically) about beach access. The beaches in Mexico are owned by the federal government. Sometimes they lease "access" to various entities, including resort hotels. You could buy your dream house on a hill across the highway, then a year later, see a condo developer come in and build high rise condos across the highway from you, restricting not only your beach access, but your view. That is Mexico - ask the beachfront property owners in LaCruz who (literallY) lost their beach when a developer came in and created "new" beach in front of them with tons of fill, then built condos on top of it. Of course, the developer's permits were not in order, but after the fact, who cares? Not much you can do about that, but be aware that it can happen, and you would likely have no recourse. These property owners have been in court for years, with no resolution in sight.
> 
> I was fortunate to sit in on a meeting with Nayarit Gov. Ney Gonzales and he seems passionately serious when he talks about preserving public access to beaches - the law supposedly requires unfettered access at regular intervals. Bucerias absolutely has that kind of access; you can reach the beach at the end of nearly every block. But Destiladeras Beach, also in Nayarit (between Punta de Mita and Sayulita), has been the most popular beach with Mexican nationals in the area and is now restricted by fencing - you can still reach the beach through a restaurant next door. Rumors fly, but I have heard that the area is being developed. Of course, money is short right now, so that may all change.
> 
> It's important to remember that laws in Mexico are not generally enforced the way they are in the US, and local governments are not particularly interested in citizen input. That is something you just have to accept when you make your move to Mexico.
> 
> Let me ask YOU a question: in your first post, you said you did not want a property with bars on the windows. Why is that? Even the most humble Mexican home in our little town has bars on the windows. Some of the newer development (mostly for gringos) have US-style windows without bars. Inevitably, those properties suffer from numerous break-ins. Not serious crimes that involve injury, but loss of property. During the low season (like now), people get desperate and the petty crime rates go up. I would not care to live in a house that is not secured by bars on the windows...it is just part of the cultural difference.
> 
> As for the travel time, Johang is correct - we have a friend who lives in La Penita and it is at least a 45 minute drive from our house in Bucerias to her house. Add another half hour minimum to go to Vallarta. The road up the coast is two-lane and windy, and also dangerous. Take a drive and look at the many, many crosses on the sides of the road. We have another friend who is a paramedic here - he tells us that accidents on Highway 200, especially between here and Sayulita, are often fatal accidents, usually involving people trying to pass on curves and having head-on collisions. I would not want to drive it regularly.
> 
> I'm not trying to discourage you - just telling you things that I wish we had known before making the move. As far as we are concerned, our move to Mexico was also our last move. We are happy here, and intend to stay for the duration.


:ranger: Buenas Dias Amigos, and Karen, rick, Johang and the illustrious Rvgringo. Thank you all for your information. The last barrage of Q'S and A's hit me pretty hard, but I am resilient, somewhat, to negative information, after all, it was I who solicited it in the first place. I reminds me of being a General in battle, seeing his troops take major losses, and himself remaining untouched from a safe distance (Seal Beach, CA), still, he is determined to focus his energy in finding solutions rather than sitting on a pity pot and licking his wounds. 
:focus: Speaking quite frankly (honestly, humbly, and from a safe location, as would a general), here we go for my topic assessments of the day....
#1. Being here in the safety of my Seal Beach home, in a neighborhood were only half the neighbors lock their front doors, and there isn't a single bars on any window, it is easy for me to be of a trusting nature... I have not lost faith in my fellow man. But where I live now is uber expensive and my neighbors are ex-cops, firemen, judges, federal agents... your basic Orange County, guns (locked up) in every home neighborhood. Everyone here walks on the streets (exercise) and most everyone knows their neighbors, and is very friendly... yet sometimes overly conservative. At ten on weeknight it is generally quiet and midnight on weekends. Unfortunately, I work thirty miles away and the rat race of Los Angeles has beaten my spirits down time and time again, add in the cost of living and I could never conceivably have enough money to retire and live here. So... Mexico has been my dream. You are correct, Karen, in that I must live in and experience Mexico first hand... how goes the saying, it is a nice place to visit but I wouldn't want to live there. Being the lifelong "cut and run" expert that I am, I have found it easy to bail out at the first sign of trouble. But at this crossroads in my life I have to learn to "give and take" and accept that which I can not change (old AA saying). My move to Mexico is currently all in my mind, and it is already quite an adventure, and thanks to you Expats, my learning curve is going to be all but non-existent by the time I arrive in PV (dreaming is good).
#2. My first impression and caution of "Beach Access" was correct. Money is king no matter where you live. I will investigate and use caution before purchasing. #3. Bars on windows remind me of prison movies, and since this is my retirement place, it would be a life sentence... maybe art crafted designer bars are the answer (they would fool me, which isn't hard to do) or go condo. #4. Patience>>Traffic, better to have it as traffic is as common as getting wet in the rain. #5. Quick Q's... What are your best cures for the humid heat? If I had a rural place should I build a wall? What about a couple of mid to large dogs, would they attract that something needs protection as in valuables? Are dogs acceptable as protection? Can you take them on city streets or into stores? About self protection limits, what is legal in my home? Can I carry a knife or spray or are guns legal with permits? < (just curious, as you understand where I live now, anything goes). What do you all use for protection, or are you just trusting? Just curious, not a mood issue, but I haven't lived down there and am curious/cautious. Are the beaches actually sanctioned public in Bucerias? Being in the bay, does it catch the ocean breeze as other ocean west facing areas? Barra Navidad, would the beaches there remain public? Guayabitos/La Penita, same question? Lake Chapala, how much to rent a nice (with view/pool) (1 or 2 bedroom) for the summer season? Can you swim in the lake or are there creatures and dangers under the water? Freezing? Boating?/Sailing? Any more tips on any of my quires or just any info or hard facts would be most accepted and I am taking advantage of your experience so that my upcoming adventure has a soft landing... I actually feel more comfortable knowing the setbacks rather than having a lingering feeling of fear that they might exist. Viva the weekend...mi amigos/amigas....


----------



## RVGRINGO

Mike, 
You really must come for a visit. I'm getting quite a chuckle (forgive me) from some of your comments. Remember that Mexico is Moorish architecture and a mix of Moroccan/Spanish culture left over from the fact that Spain was under the Moors until a few minutes, figuratively speaking, before 'los conquistadores' departed to grab the new world and its riches. As such, homes in towns are generally behind walls, with their windows facing into interior patios and courtyards. Any windows that do face public areas will generally have bars. It is about both privacy, separation from the street noise and dirt, as well as security. Historically, it protected against officialdom, foreign raiders, tax men and the occasional 'ladron'.
As for guns; put that so far out of your mind that you don't ever consider it again. Bringing even a spent cartridge into Mexico will land you in the nearest prison. Mexico has only one gun store; the Army! If you were to get a permit for one, it must never leave your home.
Rentals, as you describe in Chapala, may be found by using Google to search "Rentals in Chapala and Ajijic".
Coastal heat and humidity are 'handled' by going inland and up to about 5000 feet elevation. Ocean breezes do help, but it is all about location, location and location. That's local knowledge and personal experience. The salty humidity is also very destructive to electronics and even household appliances. We have three dogs, two are tiny, mostly because we like them & they like us. We've never had an intruder, nor worry ourselves about having one. Trusted trades people have our keys for convenience; so they can work for us or even stay at our home when we travel. Life is good here. However, leaving a door open to the street would invite 'the curious'. That said, we've had a door ajar, even having our keys dangling in the lock. Passersby have been quick to ring our bell, hand us our keys and caution us to be more careful.
All that said, we came here before these internet resources, blogs, or even many writings on living here in retirement. We simply came, saw and were conquered. You will certainly find your niche in this rather un-zoned, unstructured and very free place with such a variety of climes, tribes, local customs and fiestas, etc. When you get bored with your niche, Mexico offers easy travel to other parts by bus, car or regional airlines. So, don't micro-manage your life; just live it.


----------



## MexicoKaren

mikeyucell said:


> Quick Q's... What are your best cures for the humid heat? If I had a rural place should I build a wall? What about a couple of mid to large dogs, would they attract that something needs protection as in valuables? Are dogs acceptable as protection? Can you take them on city streets or into stores? About self protection limits, what is legal in my home? Can I carry a knife or spray or are guns legal with permits? < (just curious, as you understand where I live now, anything goes). What do you all use for protection, or are you just trusting? Just curious, not a mood issue, but I haven't lived down there and am curious/cautious. Are the beaches actually sanctioned public in Bucerias?


Best cures for the humid heat (for us, at least) is to limit activity in the hottest parts of the day. Wear loose-fitting, brief cotton clothing, i.e., shorts and t-shirts. We have good ceiling fans in every room and keep them running. We spend alot of time outside, and our lot is very shady - the front and one side are shaded by a large mimosa tree that is about 50 feet high with a 50 foot canopy. Interesting you should ask about a wall. If you completely wall in your property, you have cut off your air flow. When we bought our house, we put up a wall and gate across the front, and along the side, between us and our next door neighbor, who is messy and pretty noisy. We recently raised this wall from two meters to three meters, but we left some strategic (decorative) holes in it to let in some breeze). Our back patio is bordered by another neighbor's wall that is four meters high. The rest of the property is adjacent to a vivero (nursery) and we put up cyclone fence with barbed wire along the top (three meters high), so that we can benefit from the breeze. We're very happy with this arrangement.

All of our neighbors (including us) have dogs. You may have heard the story about the two dogs meeting on the Mexico/US border. The American dog asks the Mexican dog why he is migrating north. "So I can eat." He replies, and asks the American dog why he is coming south. "So I can bark," he explains. 

The neighbor's dogs live on the street; our dogs live within our property and my husband walks them 2X a day on a leash. They are definitely a good security item, and they are our good friends as well. They sleep outside at night. You can take them anywhere here, even into restaurants if they are well-behaved.

We "carry" nothing for protection; we have never felt threatened walking the streets here. As far as I know, knives are legal. Maybe someone knows differently. Guns CAN be, but the process for obtaining a permit is very cumbersome and difficult. Mace and pepper spray are not legal here in Nayarit. 

In every beach town, you will usually see signs for the "playa publico" and here in Bucerias, the entire beach is public. 

For us, security is not an obsession. We simply use good sense and stay aware of our surroundings. We feel much safer here than we have ever felt in the US.

And, as you suggest, you will see lots of beautifully decorative iron on doors and windows. We have a friend who designed his own windows in the shape of beautiful doves. You don't have to settle for straight bars.


----------



## mikeyucell

RVGRINGO said:


> Mike,
> You really must come for a visit. I'm getting quite a chuckle (forgive me) from some of your comments. Remember that Mexico is Moorish architecture and a mix of Moroccan/Spanish culture left over from the fact that Spain was under the Moors until a few minutes, figuratively speaking, before 'los conquistadores' departed to grab the new world and its riches. As such, homes in towns are generally behind walls, with their windows facing into interior patios and courtyards. Any windows that do face public areas will generally have bars. It is about both privacy, separation from the street noise and dirt, as well as security. Historically, it protected against officialdom, foreign raiders, tax men and the occasional 'ladron'.
> As for guns; put that so far out of your mind that you don't ever consider it again. Bringing even a spent cartridge into Mexico will land you in the nearest prison. Mexico has only one gun store; the Army! If you were to get a permit for one, it must never leave your home.
> Rentals, as you describe in Chapala, may be found by using Google to search "Rentals in Chapala and Ajijic".
> Coastal heat and humidity are 'handled' by going inland and up to about 5000 feet elevation. Ocean breezes do help, but it is all about location, location and location. That's local knowledge and personal experience. The salty humidity is also very destructive to electronics and even household appliances. We have three dogs, two are tiny, mostly because we like them & they like us. We've never had an intruder, nor worry ourselves about having one. Trusted trades people have our keys for convenience; so they can work for us or even stay at our home when we travel. Life is good here. However, leaving a door open to the street would invite 'the curious'. That said, we've had a door ajar, even having our keys dangling in the lock. Passersby have been quick to ring our bell, hand us our keys and caution us to be more careful.
> All that said, we came here before these internet resources, blogs, or even many writings on living here in retirement. We simply came, saw and were conquered. You will certainly find your niche in this rather un-zoned, unstructured and very free place with such a variety of climes, tribes, local customs and fiestas, etc. When you get bored with your niche, Mexico offers easy travel to other parts by bus, car or regional airlines. So, don't micro-manage your life; just live it.


:ranger: Hey ******! Nice to hear from you again. My ancestors go way back... but somewhere in more recent history, about a thousand years ago, they were the de Leon family of the Moorish empire in Spain. So, there you have it, I can only blame my own relatives for the architecture that is common place in Mexico, including the bars on the windows. When I was a child, our family lived in the San Fernando valley in Los Angeles, in a very traditional Spanish horseshoe shaped home, with few out facing windows and a very large center courtyard that connected to most of the rooms, and a front and backyard riddled with over a hundred fruit trees. It was torn down forty years ago and made into 10 track homes with a street running through it. Living there, along with our summer trips to Acapulco gave me quite a good taste for Mexican living.
It is looking more and more that I will include Lake Chapala in my initial scouting trip to Mexico. I lived in Denver for many years and both are about a mile high. Although I suspect the winters in Chapala are not as harsh, it being closer to the equator. 
 Hear you on the gun situation. Around Los Angeles you basically live in terror that anyone might be carrying a gun... and well over half the population has them at home. 
:confused2: About dogs. I suspect my first concern would be for the dogs (two is better as they have the company of each other). I would probably travel some in Mexico, and for a month or two of the year I will be in the States or abroad. And also, with my daily life in Mexico, the beach, visiting friends, stores, Costco, dinning out, etc.... What would I do, being a single person (if that even mattered at all)... what would I do with my Dog (s)? Is it OK to leave them at home? Would I take them with me everywhere, and leave them in the "HOT" car if they can not come with me or do you tie them up outside the stores or eateries? Call me stupid, but just how do dogs fit into daily Mexican life? Currently, I have an aged cat I rescued from a construction site many years ago, and usually leave her at home or at at cat hotel when I go out of town. I suspect I should first, find a suitable place (a process which may take months or longer), then down the road, think of getting a dog or two. And what about VETs and care costs? In the States caring for an animal is as expensive as it is with their human counterparts. Do they have pet sitters, like here, that come to your home and care for the pet when you are away? Or do I board them? Or hire someone to JUST to watch the dogs and my casa... which is sounding like more money than I have to spare. ******, could you or someone give me a reality check on this one? Are dogs really allowed to bark in Mexico, up here in the States, a barking dog can get impounded in the wrong neighborhood. And, what kind of dog is best suited for the heat? I swear, not more dog questions for now, as you can see, this conversation has gone to the dogs. Thanks for all your info, take care.


----------



## mikeyucell

MexicoKaren said:


> Best cures for the humid heat (for us, at least) is to limit activity in the hottest parts of the day. Wear loose-fitting, brief cotton clothing, i.e., shorts and t-shirts. We have good ceiling fans in every room and keep them running. We spend alot of time outside, and our lot is very shady - the front and one side are shaded by a large mimosa tree that is about 50 feet high with a 50 foot canopy. Interesting you should ask about a wall. If you completely wall in your property, you have cut off your air flow. When we bought our house, we put up a wall and gate across the front, and along the side, between us and our next door neighbor, who is messy and pretty noisy. We recently raised this wall from two meters to three meters, but we left some strategic (decorative) holes in it to let in some breeze). Our back patio is bordered by another neighbor's wall that is four meters high. The rest of the property is adjacent to a vivero (nursery) and we put up cyclone fence with barbed wire along the top (three meters high), so that we can benefit from the breeze. We're very happy with this arrangement.
> 
> All of our neighbors (including us) have dogs. You may have heard the story about the two dogs meeting on the Mexico/US border. The American dog asks the Mexican dog why he is migrating north. "So I can eat." He replies, and asks the American dog why he is coming south. "So I can bark," he explains.
> 
> The neighbor's dogs live on the street; our dogs live within our property and my husband walks them 2X a day on a leash. They are definitely a good security item, and they are our good friends as well. They sleep outside at night. You can take them anywhere here, even into restaurants if they are well-behaved.
> 
> We "carry" nothing for protection; we have never felt threatened walking the streets here. As far as I know, knives are legal. Maybe someone knows differently. Guns CAN be, but the process for obtaining a permit is very cumbersome and difficult. Mace and pepper spray are not legal here in Nayarit.
> 
> In every beach town, you will usually see signs for the "playa publico" and here in Bucerias, the entire beach is public.
> 
> For us, security is not an obsession. We simply use good sense and stay aware of our surroundings. We feel much safer here than we have ever felt in the US.
> 
> And, as you suggest, you will see lots of beautifully decorative iron on doors and windows. We have a friend who designed his own windows in the shape of beautiful doves. You don't have to settle for straight bars.


:confused2: Hey Karen, more dog questions. Are dogs allowed on public beaches, but my real question is, do other people take their dogs to the beach, I would not want to be out of line? I asked RVGRINGO several canine questions and would love to hear your experiences and opinions. 
:clap2: It seems as though Bucerias is definitely on my list for possible locations. Are there rental listings in the area, something near the beach with possibly a view for cheap? What about surrounding areas near you, like inland a bit, that might suit me? As always, thank you for keeping this thread going as by tomorrow I will have another battery of inquires.


----------



## MexicoKaren

mikeyucell said:


> :confused2: Hey Karen, more dog questions. Are dogs allowed on public beaches, but my real question is, do other people take their dogs to the beach, I would not want to be out of line? I asked RVGRINGO several canine questions and would love to hear your experiences and opinions.
> :clap2: It seems as though Bucerias is definitely on my list for possible locations. Are there rental listings in the area, something near the beach with possibly a view for cheap? What about surrounding areas near you, like inland a bit, that might suit me? As always, thank you for keeping this thread going as by tomorrow I will have another battery of inquires.


I have to smile at your questions about where dogs are "allowed." Dogs are everywhere - lots of street dogs, who are usually well-behaved and pleasant, at least here in Bucerias. While there are probably rules to follow in gated communities, there is no local government "animal control" here and no leash laws. When we travel (within Mexico - my husband will not leave), we hire a house-sitter for about $150 pesos a day (that is about $12 USD) to care for our two dogs and multiple cats. Veterinary care is very cheap - one of our cats was "hospitalized" for four days, had IVs, lots of tests, etc. and the fee was $800 pesos - about $60 USD. Spaying and neutering runs about $400 pesos, or $30-32 USD. 

As far as rental listings are concerned, you are better off to avoid the ones that are online, because they are going to be more expensive. Come on down, stay at Casa Tranquila for a few weeks (look it up online - Casa Tranquila-Bucerias), and investigate possibilities locally. My daughter rented an apartment with a beach view on a year's lease for $4000 pesos a months (about $320 USD). Coincidentally, it is still vacant. But it has never been advertised anywhere, and probably never will be. The ones that are advertised are likely to involve property managers and absent ****** owners, and the costs begin to pile up from there.

And while I've got your attention, let me say one more thing about coping with the summer weather - the MOST important thing, and I left it out initially. DON'T TREAT IT LIKE IT IS YOUR ENEMY. Relax and enjoy. Don't dread it and grit your teeth until it is over. Every day is a gift - even a hot and humid summer day. Embrace it and you'll realize it isn't so bad, after all.


----------



## RVGRINGO

We don't live in a hot area, so our dogs are just fine in the yard where they have lots of space, shade, two garages, food & water and a 'doggie door' to the inside, at our election. When we travel, our maid stays at the house to keep them company, look after the house and the many things that need watering, inside and out, depending upon the season. Not a problem at all & costs about 100 pesos per day. She considers it 'her vacation' from daughters and granddaughters in her small home. She and her 'novio' both seem to enjoy the stay, while we can travel or enjoy the beach for a week without worry. Here at Chapala, dogs must be on a leash and they are restricted from some parks, for obvious reasons. Parks are heavily used by picnicking families on weekends and some are sites for musical events, etc. Yes, dogs are getting expensive. We just paid about 450 pesos for a 25 Kilo bag of Purina Dog Chow, up about 10% from a year ago. Buying the smaller bags would be even more expensive, so we just keep a large, well sealed garbage can full of dog food. The clerks place that heavy bag in the rear of the car, so we just wheel the can up to it, slash it open and wheel the refilled can back to its usual spot. We're too old to lift and dump 55 lbs. of dog food! As for vets; they are plentiful and, as MDs, they will make house calls if needed. Our local ones are very reasonable and genuinely care about the animals they treat.


----------



## kcowan

Dogs are allowed on most beaches on leash. But there is little enforcement. We walk friends' dogs all the time and have never been challenged.


----------



## mikeyucell

MexicoKaren said:


> I have to smile at your questions about where dogs are "allowed." Dogs are everywhere - lots of street dogs, who are usually well-behaved and pleasant, at least here in Bucerias. While there are probably rules to follow in gated communities, there is no local government "animal control" here and no leash laws. When we travel (within Mexico - my husband will not leave), we hire a house-sitter for about $150 pesos a day (that is about $12 USD) to care for our two dogs and multiple cats. Veterinary care is very cheap - one of our cats was "hospitalized" for four days, had IVs, lots of tests, etc. and the fee was $800 pesos - about $60 USD. Spaying and neutering runs about $400 pesos, or $30-32 USD.
> 
> As far as rental listings are concerned, you are better off to avoid the ones that are online, because they are going to be more expensive. Come on down, stay at Casa Tranquila for a few weeks (look it up online - Casa Tranquila-Bucerias), and investigate possibilities locally. My daughter rented an apartment with a beach view on a year's lease for $4000 pesos a months (about $320 USD). Coincidentally, it is still vacant. But it has never been advertised anywhere, and probably never will be. The ones that are advertised are likely to involve property managers and absent ****** owners, and the costs begin to pile up from there.
> 
> And while I've got your attention, let me say one more thing about coping with the summer weather - the MOST important thing, and I left it out initially. DON'T TREAT IT LIKE IT IS YOUR ENEMY. Relax and enjoy. Don't dread it and grit your teeth until it is over. Every day is a gift - even a hot and humid summer day. Embrace it and you'll realize it isn't so bad, after all.


:clap2: Thanks for the dog stuff. I would feel more comfortable knowing a dog was watching out for me, that is, if I don't end up in a condo. A close expat friend of mine warned me that if I lived "out in the open" to be cautious of my surroundings as Mexico is not Disneyland. She lives in a condo w/o pets. And the fact Vets are not outrageous in cost makes a big positive in my checkbook.
:clap2: Thank you for the info on the apartment rental, although I would still like to find a place where I can do month to month, or at least leave or buy out of the lease (for only a months rent or so) IF I eventually find a place to buy. I appreciate your info on getting into the zone and avoiding conventional real estate "traps". Here in Seal Beach, if you want a great deal on a place, it is usually never advertised and someone just places a for rent sign in the window... basically to keep everything more local.
:confused2: Does anyone out there know about condos for lease or rent in PV or the nearby outlining areas other than Bucerias? It seems as though a condo/apartment will be my best bet for a home base while I begin to scout the areas I have in mind. If I could be south of old town that would be ideal as I have friends nearby. And what do you think about renting a villa or casa verses renting a condo?
:confused2: Why doesn't your husband want to ever leave Mexico? Just curious.


----------



## mikeyucell

RVGRINGO said:


> We don't live in a hot area, so our dogs are just fine in the yard where they have lots of space, shade, two garages, food & water and a 'doggie door' to the inside, at our election. When we travel, our maid stays at the house to keep them company, look after the house and the many things that need watering, inside and out, depending upon the season. Not a problem at all & costs about 100 pesos per day. She considers it 'her vacation' from daughters and granddaughters in her small home. She and her 'novio' both seem to enjoy the stay, while we can travel or enjoy the beach for a week without worry. Here at Chapala, dogs must be on a leash and they are restricted from some parks, for obvious reasons. Parks are heavily used by picnicking families on weekends and some are sites for musical events, etc. Yes, dogs are getting expensive. We just paid about 450 pesos for a 25 Kilo bag of Purina Dog Chow, up about 10% from a year ago. Buying the smaller bags would be even more expensive, so we just keep a large, well sealed garbage can full of dog food. The clerks place that heavy bag in the rear of the car, so we just wheel the can up to it, slash it open and wheel the refilled can back to its usual spot. We're too old to lift and dump 55 lbs. of dog food! As for vets; they are plentiful and, as MDs, they will make house calls if needed. Our local ones are very reasonable and genuinely care about the animals they treat.


:clap2: You've got to be kidding me. The last time I can remember a Doctor made a house call was 45 years ago. And Vets also? I'd have to see it to believe it. 
lane: Do they have low cost airplane flights from Chapala to PV? That would solve the five hour drive dilemma. If it was under a hundred bucks round trip, I would be totally stoked. What does a bus ride cost? The lowest cost and time it takes? Are there nicer express busses from Chapala to PV (with a restroom)? Where in Chapala do they leave from and also in PV? Is there any other type of transportation from Chapala to PV? Train, ride share, you tell me?
 Purina dog food is also expensive up here. Are there Mexican brand names or is are there Purina factories down there?


----------



## RVGRINGO

Yes, they all make house calls, as needed, and the doctors will even drive you to the hospital in Guadalajara if you need hospitalization.
$100 USD will usually get you a round trip to PV from the Guadalajara airport (half an hour north of Chapala) on one of the regional airlines; about the same as a bus ticket. The major airlines cost more. You must go to Guadalajara to catch a bus to PV, etc. Yes, the buses will blow your mind, compared to US bus service. All have rest rooms, some have two of them, sandwich bars, full recliners, movies, etc.
Purina is an international division of Nestlé (PURINA MEXICO)
There are other, cheaper brands, but we've evidently spoiled our dogs. A good one is http://www.diamondpet.com.mx/


----------



## mikeyucell

*I'm not really sick, but just as a precaution...*



RVGRINGO said:


> Yes, they all make house calls, as needed, and the doctors will even drive you to the hospital in Guadalajara if you need hospitalization.
> $100 USD will usually get you a round trip to PV from the Guadalajara airport (half an hour north of Chapala) on one of the regional airlines; about the same as a bus ticket. The major airlines cost more. You must go to Guadalajara to catch a bus to PV, etc. Yes, the buses will blow your mind, compared to US bus service. All have rest rooms, some have two of them, sandwich bars, full recliners, movies, etc.
> Purina is an international division of Nestlé (PURINA MEXICO)
> There are other, cheaper brands, but we've evidently spoiled our dogs. A good one is Diamond Pet Food México


 Now, RVGRINGO and anyone else who is reading this thread, about medical care... and I am reluctant to ask, wishing not to hear discouraging words... what is the real scoop? I am going to relate what I know, please sort out the reality from fiction. I heard from my Expat friend that $300 USD buys you into the federal medical plan. She paid out of pocket a few hundred pesos extra for "a operating room charge", I think, but I could be mistaken... she had a small growth removed from her foot. What is your take on that one... and what if her operation was really expensive? 
:confused2: A Mexican born friend of mine at work says you have to wait all day to see a doctor with the plan. He says it is easier to pay out of pocket for the visit,and not have to wait. But what if it is something extensive... requiring surgery or extended treatment. 
:confused2: I also heard the federal plan covers all medications... does that include ALL? 
:confused2: On the internet they sell additional Mexican health care insurance to supplement the federal plan. You just said a doctor can come to your home and then even take you to the hospital if necessary... is that on the federal plan... is that for additional money.... if so is it a very small amount and paid out of pocket.... will I need supplemental insurance? How much are these supplemental plans or are they unnecessary?
:confused2: I have heard on the rumor mill that when I turn 65 (currently 57), that I must return to the States (for a visit only or to have a legal residence?) in order to qualify for medicare, which I have been paying into for my entire working life. So, what is better, to go back to the States for say some expensive treatment, or stay in Mexico and use the federal plan? 
:confused2: What in Mexico is considered "elective" surgery or treatment? Is the Federal medical plan coverage limited, and to what? 
:confused2: What about Dental? I know it is way less expensive than in the States, but do I need supplemental dental insurance? I have 2500 usd annual coverage in the States, but it does not cover much of anything, or only half of most everything.... crowns, implants, etc...
lane: I am excited about the bus service. They sound great! And local airlines from Chapala to PV could be a great asset if I ever decide to get a home in both places or just up in Chapala. 
:confused2: Are there any other mountainous expat friendly areas 4000 feet and up, other than Chapala, which might be within range of PV? 
Till next time, buenas noches amigos and amigas :ranger:


----------



## RVGRINGO

I'll do this the easy way:
1. Now, RVGRINGO and anyone else who is reading this thread, about medical care... and I am reluctant to ask, wishing not to hear discouraging words... what is the real scoop?
A. What you read here is real; based on the experience of the poster.
2. I heard from my Expat friend that $300 USD buys you into the federal medical plan. She paid out of pocket a few hundred pesos extra for "a operating room charge", I think, but I could be mistaken... she had a small growth removed from her foot. What is your take on that one... and what if her operation was really expensive?
A. The social security medical system is IMSS and is strained to the limit. The annual enrollment fee is about $300 USD per person, per year and goes up slightly with age until it levels out at age 60. Your friend may have paid an OR fee for some item that IMSS did not provide. Your other friend is correct. The IMSS system is slow and inefficient, in most locations, is broke and often doesn't have the free medications you need. If available, though, you'll get them. There can be long waits at some units, while others are more efficient and work by appointment. You have no choice & must use your local unit, unless sent to another, or an IMSS hospital for some specific reason. Those hospitals are spartan & require that you bring an attendant and personal needs; like water, TP, pillow, blanket, etc. 
Yes, it is much easier to use private doctors and private hospitals, which can be world class, or even better, in both care and efficiency, yet much less expensive than the USA.

3. On the internet they sell additional Mexican health care insurance to supplement the federal plan.
A. There is no 'supplemental' insurance to IMSS. You either have IMSS, or you don't. Private insurance is available and you would use private MDs and hospitals. That system is much simpler and much less expensive than the USA. You select a deductable and everything beyond that is covered.....absolutely everything; amulance, after care, medications, etc. There are many choices.

4. I have heard on the rumor mill that when I turn 65 (currently 57), that I must return to the States (for a visit only or to have a legal residence?) in order to qualify for medicare, which I have been paying into for my entire working life. So, what is better, to go back to the States for say some expensive treatment, or stay in Mexico and use the federal plan?
A. Medicare will not pay anything outside of the USA, with few complicated exceptions for short vacations or near the border situations. Yet, you can expect to continue to pay your monthly fees for parts A&B, just in case you need to go back to the USA for care. However, depending upon your needs, it can be just as economical to stay in Mexico. So, there is no general answer.

What in Mexico is considered "elective" surgery or treatment? Is the Federal medical plan coverage limited, and to what?
A. That's a USA term which we don't hear in Mexico. In the IMSS system, they decide what will be done; so there really is no 'election' by the patient. In the private system, you and your doctor will decide and you are quite free to have anything done that you wish. You are paying the bill. However, if you have private insurance, they probably won't cover anything that isn't necessary.

What about Dental? I know it is way less expensive than in the States, but do I need supplemental dental insurance?
A. I've never heard of dental insurance here. It may exist, for some situations, under private medical coverage. I don't know.

I am excited about the bus service. They sound great! And local airlines from Chapala to PV could be a great asset if I ever decide to get a home in both places or just up in Chapala.
A. The flights run from the GDL airport, half an hour from Chapala; while the buses run from the bus station in Tonala, on the outskirts of Guadalajara. Local buses and/or taxis will get you to that station from the Chapala station.

Are there any other mountainous expat friendly areas 4000 feet and up, other than Chapala, which might be within range of PV?
A. Sure, there are lots, but you would have to decide if you would like living in one of them. You might be the only expat and not be able to find familiar products and services.


----------



## mikeyucell

*finding a silver lining in that one*



RVGRINGO said:


> I'll do this the easy way:
> 1. Now, RVGRINGO and anyone else who is reading this thread, about medical care... and I am reluctant to ask, wishing not to hear discouraging words... what is the real scoop?
> A. What you read here is real; based on the experience of the poster.
> 2. I heard from my Expat friend that $300 USD buys you into the federal medical plan. She paid out of pocket a few hundred pesos extra for "a operating room charge", I think, but I could be mistaken... she had a small growth removed from her foot. What is your take on that one... and what if her operation was really expensive?
> A. The social security medical system is IMSS and is strained to the limit. The annual enrollment fee is about $300 USD per person, per year and goes up slightly with age until it levels out at age 60. Your friend may have paid an OR fee for some item that IMSS did not provide. Your other friend is correct. The IMSS system is slow and inefficient, in most locations, is broke and often doesn't have the free medications you need. If available, though, you'll get them. There can be long waits at some units, while others are more efficient and work by appointment. You have no choice & must use your local unit, unless sent to another, or an IMSS hospital for some specific reason. Those hospitals are spartan & require that you bring an attendant and personal needs; like water, TP, pillow, blanket, etc.
> Yes, it is much easier to use private doctors and private hospitals, which can be world class, or even better, in both care and efficiency, yet much less expensive than the USA.
> 
> 3. On the internet they sell additional Mexican health care insurance to supplement the federal plan.
> A. There is no 'supplemental' insurance to IMSS. You either have IMSS, or you don't. Private insurance is available and you would use private MDs and hospitals. That system is much simpler and much less expensive than the USA. You select a deductable and everything beyond that is covered.....absolutely everything; amulance, after care, medications, etc. There are many choices.
> 
> 4. I have heard on the rumor mill that when I turn 65 (currently 57), that I must return to the States (for a visit only or to have a legal residence?) in order to qualify for medicare, which I have been paying into for my entire working life. So, what is better, to go back to the States for say some expensive treatment, or stay in Mexico and use the federal plan?
> A. Medicare will not pay anything outside of the USA, with few complicated exceptions for short vacations or near the border situations. Yet, you can expect to continue to pay your monthly fees for parts A&B, just in case you need to go back to the USA for care. However, depending upon your needs, it can be just as economical to stay in Mexico. So, there is no general answer.
> 
> What in Mexico is considered "elective" surgery or treatment? Is the Federal medical plan coverage limited, and to what?
> A. That's a USA term which we don't hear in Mexico. In the IMSS system, they decide what will be done; so there really is no 'election' by the patient. In the private system, you and your doctor will decide and you are quite free to have anything done that you wish. You are paying the bill. However, if you have private insurance, they probably won't cover anything that isn't necessary.
> 
> What about Dental? I know it is way less expensive than in the States, but do I need supplemental dental insurance?
> A. I've never heard of dental insurance here. It may exist, for some situations, under private medical coverage. I don't know.
> 
> I am excited about the bus service. They sound great! And local airlines from Chapala to PV could be a great asset if I ever decide to get a home in both places or just up in Chapala.
> A. The flights run from the GDL airport, half an hour from Chapala; while the buses run from the bus station in Tonala, on the outskirts of Guadalajara. Local buses and/or taxis will get you to that station from the Chapala station.
> 
> Are there any other mountainous expat friendly areas 4000 feet and up, other than Chapala, which might be within range of PV?
> A. Sure, there are lots, but you would have to decide if you would like living in one of them. You might be the only expat and not be able to find familiar products and services.


:ranger: Thank you RVGRINGO. Now I have something to work with on health care that is real.... here goes...
:confused2: The IMSS care in the general PV area. On average, is it above or below the national standard. The doctors? Hospitals? To they take appointments in PV, or is the waiting room like some plague movie in Africa? If I have a world of patience and am not "fussy" would I be satisfied with the IMSS in PV? Does the IMSS cover ambulances and extended stays in the hospital? 
:confused2: Private care in the PV area. How much is a basic office visit? Hospital emergency room for say a high fever or a broken leg? How much are medications if you pay cash, on average, what % verses the US.
:confused2: I know I am not suppose to ask personal questions, but sighting a generic example, what does private health care cost in Mexico? Private care anywhere is expensive, are there alternatives like student doctors or back alley clinics?
:confused2: Does anyone you know have private health care insurance? How much is that monthly? A smart deductable? 
:confused2: Do you know anyone with IMSS care? 
:confused2: I am generally, cross my fingers, a healthy person, now, what about preventative screening, such as colonoscopies, etc...? In both private and with the IMSS?
:confused2: How much, on average, for a crown or an implant or an extraction?
:confused2: I have never looked into US medicare. What do you mean by continuing to pay into parts A & B? How much is that? I am 57, I will start to collect social security at 62, here are three very important questions... 
#1. When does medicare kick in for me, at 62 or 65? 
#2. How long do I have to keep paying into parts A & B and HOW MUCH, and if I do not continue to pay into parts A & B, do I loose US Medicare altogether?
#3. Can you site an example of someone going back to the US medicare system for some chronic condition treatment verses staying here and suffering with the IMSS?
 You see, RV, I wish to commit to Mexico, unconditionally, I do not wish to remain dependent on the US, except for my social security checks (after a lifetime of paying in, is my money anyway), and without making smart decisions concerning medical care, I do not want to end up selling mi casa in order to pay for some expensive surgery or treatment. I can see this topic by far the most important and confusing :confused2:, all of my questions can not be answered in just one or two replies, please, allow me to ask more questions along the way as they come to mind. 
:ranger: I put down the gauntlet, for anyone reading to chime in concerning this most vital and life threatening subject... any and all comments or examples or experiences or facts would be most welcome and I would forever be grateful for the help. As always, now.... Viva healthcare in Mexico (I hope).


----------



## RVGRINGO

I don't know about the PV IMSS or costs there, beyond the fact that it is generally more there than here.
You can buy very good private health insurance for about $2500 USD per year, mas o menos.
Ok......enough. You are getting obsessive about this.


----------



## mikeyucell

RVGRINGO said:


> I don't know about the PV IMSS or costs there, beyond the fact that it is generally more there than here.
> You can buy very good private health insurance for about $2500 USD per year, mas o menos.
> Ok......enough. You are getting obsessive about this.


OK.... but there is a difference between obsession and genuine concern. Each and every question I posed on the thread are legitimate and I will eventually have to have them answered before I make my "leap o faith" to Mexico. I am not made of money and $2500 USD a year is quite a large sum for me. I only seek alternatives and hard facts. I only hoped the participants of this expat site will chime in and share their knowledge and experience with me. RVGRINGO, you seem at times to take on the entire website by yourself, which is truly admirable, but this site belongs to Expats living in or wishing to live in Mexico, and you are only one person. We are as you would say, all in this together, and only wish others would freely chime in and get involved, even just a sentence or two could make a significant difference in someone's entire destiny. I see only foolishness in moving to Mexico without a very clear and distinct understanding of all the options concerning each and every aspect of Mexican life, and that includes medical care. No, RV, my intention is never to obsess, so pass on my questions as you feel, for what is the key purpose of this website anyway? I only speak out of respect and humbly wish that others would chime in with their experiences, knowledge, and direction. :juggle: Unfortunately, my obsession is that I want to see the entire garment, and not just a thread that has no purpose.


----------



## MexicoKaren

Mikey, it seems to me that alot of the questions you are asking, e.g., Medicare costs, can be answered through your own research, and are not necessarily relevant to our discussion about living in Mexico. And many of your questions can best be answered through your own experience, so I can only reiterate what RVG has recommended - come on down. I will add a few answers from our own experience, however.

Private physicians here are not the exalted class that they are in the US. Our Mexican family doctor here in our little town speaks perfect English, and he is an excellent physician. He personally chooses not to participate in IMSS, and he tells us that he cannot afford private insurance. So like many of the expats here, he just pays as he goes and hopes to stay healthy. He charges $200 pesos for an office visit - that is about $17 USD, depending on the day's exchange rate.

We have friends who buy into IMSS - they pay the equivalent of about $350 US each per year. Like RVG says, their medication is "free", but seldom in stock. He needs a hip replacement and because of the many months' delay at IMSS, has chosen to pay out of pocket through a private orthopedic surgeon here in the area, who speaks English. You will not encounter much, if any, English in the IMSS system. 

There are occasional rumors of demonstration projects to pay Medicare costs for expats living in Mexico, and a few concerted lobbying efforts. One of the best is led by a guy from PV who works on behalf of Democrats Abroad, who is trying to sell it to Congress on the basis of lower costs. Costs for military retirees in Mexico are already paid through US TriCare, so it might happen, but I wouldn't hold my breath. The lack of Medicare payment in Mexico is surely one of the largest barriers to US retirees moving here.

Good luck with the rest of your questions - you are certainly trying to cover all your bases. 

Buena suerte, Karen


----------



## mikeyucell

MexicoKaren said:


> Mikey, it seems to me that alot of the questions you are asking, e.g., Medicare costs, can be answered through your own research, and are not necessarily relevant to our discussion about living in Mexico. And many of your questions can best be answered through your own experience, so I can only reiterate what RVG has recommended - come on down. I will add a few answers from our own experience, however.
> 
> Private physicians here are not the exalted class that they are in the US. Our Mexican family doctor here in our little town speaks perfect English, and he is an excellent physician. He personally chooses not to participate in IMSS, and he tells us that he cannot afford private insurance. So like many of the expats here, he just pays as he goes and hopes to stay healthy. He charges $200 pesos for an office visit - that is about $17 USD, depending on the day's exchange rate.
> 
> We have friends who buy into IMSS - they pay the equivalent of about $350 US each per year. Like RVG says, their medication is "free", but seldom in stock. He needs a hip replacement and because of the many months' delay at IMSS, has chosen to pay out of pocket through a private orthopedic surgeon here in the area, who speaks English. You will not encounter much, if any, English in the IMSS system.
> 
> There are occasional rumors of demonstration projects to pay Medicare costs for expats living in Mexico, and a few concerted lobbying efforts. One of the best is led by a guy from PV who works on behalf of Democrats Abroad, who is trying to sell it to Congress on the basis of lower costs. Costs for military retirees in Mexico are already paid through US TriCare, so it might happen, but I wouldn't hold my breath. The lack of Medicare payment in Mexico is surely one of the largest barriers to US retirees moving here.
> 
> Good luck with the rest of your questions - you are certainly trying to cover all your bases.
> 
> Buena suerte, Karen


:ranger: If healthcare is not a part of a relevant discussion on living in Mexico, when what is? And, honestly, thank you for your input. Sharing time, ideas, directions, and compassion (help) is what the human experience is all about. Call me obsessive or a fool, or just direct me to where I can find the answers to the questions I have "about living in Mexico", if you know the answers or where I can find them, that would legitimize a relevant discussion on living in Mexico.
With respect and humility, mikeyucell


----------



## MexicoKaren

What I am saying, Mikey, is that the costs of Part A and Part B Medicare are issues that you can research yourself - these costs do not exclusively apply to the Mexican expat community. Go to the Medicare website and find out for yourself. Don't expect us to do it for you. It is also important that you understand that each person's experience varies, and that your perceptions, viewed through your own unique frame of reference, will likely be different from ours. RVG and I seem to agree on most issues, but he lives in a very different part of Mexico than I do, and his expectations, needs and preferences may also be different from mine. 

Finally, I'm sure we all appreciate your need to plan each detail of your life in advance, but you will certainly encounter surprises no matter how carefully you plan (remember those folks in LaCruz with beachfront property?). Consider how adaptable and flexible you might be in coping with these surprises...we have all known people who threw up their hands and left Mexico after a year or so because they could not live with the unpredictability that is part of life here. Mexico is not for everyone...especially if you are not comfortable with ambiguity. We live in an almost constant state of ambiguity here. That is attractive to some, anathema to others.


----------



## makaloco

Here's the official site for Medicare:
Medicare.gov ? the Official U.S. Government Site for Medicare

Mike, I can't add anything about the Puerto Vallarta area, but regarding IMSS, you need to keep in mind that not everyone who applies is accepted for coverage. I personally know two couples with no major health issues who were rejected.

I kept my employer's medical plan (European provider) when I retired. At ~$360 /mo, it's my highest living expense. But the deductible is only $250 /year for worldwide coverage. Regional coverage is about 1/3 the cost of worldwide but excludes the US and Canada. Though I don't have health problems now, it seems the wrong time at my age (almost 63) to limit my options by excluding two of the three countries on the continent where I live. I'm still thinking it over. So far Mexican private health care has been fine, but I haven't had to use it much.

Personally, I don't count on ever being covered by Medicare, so I doubt I'll sign up for the extra paid parts. I've lived outside the US for 30+ years, and the chances of my moving there are slim to none.


----------



## RVGRINGO

Some very good points have been made; especially the 'ambiguity' mentioned by Karen. Whatever you plan and depend upon may change instantly. We both used to have IMSS, but for two years out of nine, there were 'errors in the paperwork' and we discovered, after the fact, that we weren't covered. Fortunately, we didn't need attention. We've also been victims of making payments, but receiving false documents. Others have had good IMSS experiences for serious needs. Maybe it is just a 'crap shoot'.
At present, we don't have IMSS. We're too old to apply for private insurance and, if we had purchased it before 60, it might now be too expensive. I do have a policy that is included in my retirement, but it requires that I keep both parts of Medicare, so that costs $97 USD per month for no coverage in Mexico. I also have VA coverage in the USA, but not here. So, for an emergency in Mexico we are virtually uncovered. As Makaloco says, the private system is just fine and is affordable for routine care. If I were to suffer a major event and survive, I would hope to be stabilized quickly and avoid major costs. If the result was to be a lingering and expensive situation, I would ask my wife and friends to drive me to the USA and the nearest VA hospital. At my age, however, I would prefer a quick 'exit'.
My frustration with your long list of questions was primarily the impossible detail that you seemed to want; such that it would have required a survey of expats, over time, and the compilation of the averages that you requested; an impossible task.
Please consider that many of us came to Mexico before 'technology' could provide instant answers anyway. Most in the Chapala area are very well traveled, educated and adventurous sorts; many having lived abroad as part of their working lives. As such, perhaps we are more adaptable to moves around the globe and less concerned about the details; which we'll sort out when we get there and adapt to as they change. Believe me, they always change. So, prepare yourself for that 'ambiguity' as it intrudes into your life plan. Over planning can take the fun out of life, as the only result of a change in circumstances will be disappointment and/or frustration. We take life as it comes.


----------



## mikeyucell

*thanx*



MexicoKaren said:


> What I am saying, Mikey, is that the costs of Part A and Part B Medicare are issues that you can research yourself - these costs do not exclusively apply to the Mexican expat community. Go to the Medicare website and find out for yourself. Don't expect us to do it for you. It is also important that you understand that each person's experience varies, and that your perceptions, viewed through your own unique frame of reference, will likely be different from ours. RVG and I seem to agree on most issues, but he lives in a very different part of Mexico than I do, and his expectations, needs and preferences may also be different from mine.
> 
> Finally, I'm sure we all appreciate your need to plan each detail of your life in advance, but you will certainly encounter surprises no matter how carefully you plan (remember those folks in LaCruz with beachfront property?). Consider how adaptable and flexible you might be in coping with these surprises...we have all known people who threw up their hands and left Mexico after a year or so because they could not live with the unpredictability that is part of life here. Mexico is not for everyone...especially if you are not comfortable with ambiguity. We live in an almost constant state of ambiguity here. That is attractive to some, anathema to others.


 I must be having a bad hair day, after all, what can you expect... I am still here in the states. Here, I have been programed and brain washed about the necessity of healthcare way past the point of obsession... and with your words of wisdom and RV's, I have come to my senses and profusely apologize for any confusion or contrary phrases towards the "agenda" of the forum. 
:ranger: I will go to the medicare website and research it myself, no problem. I need to know my options and what that A&B plan even means, if in some rare instance after retiring in Mexico that I need to go back home and tap into the resources that I paid into for my entire working career. Blah, blah...
 In planning to go to Mexico, I am not all that interested in leaving a back door, a way to retreat if things get out of control. Once I commit to being in Mexico, that is that, and basically the bridge will be burned behind me (except to visit relatives or critical family business). So, you see, it is of the greatest importance that I investigate as best I can, then whatever is left unanswered, I will finish once I make the move. 
:juggle: Something as money draining as healthcare is a key issue with me. With so many options and so few extra financial resources of my own to handle them, I must make the right choices. It very well might mean that I stay up here for a couple of more years until I save up enough money to afford private medical insurance once I do get to Mexico... but the decision to stay here, even for another year or two (I am planning to leave around the first of next year) would be the sad indeed, very very sad...
:clap2: So... the hell with healthcare as a "breaking issue" and I will demote it to just a "mood issue", even though I have been programed to worship insurance companies like God, and even though most every relative on my Mom's side of the family contracted some form of cancer (my brother had Hodgkins and died from Mesothelioma and sister had breast cancer twice >still alive and annoying as ever), I will put this issue on the back burner and hopefully will never need to see a Doctor ever... and that's what you call optimism and a true leap of faith. 
lane: So here I go, back on track again. Is it alright to ask questions about shipping furniture and books and research papers and paintings and sculptures, etc... to Puerto Vallarta? Should I rent a truck or container ship by boat or train or ?????? The cheapest and safest way as my artwork and papers are irreplaceable... but not so cheap as to make an error in judgement.
:ranger: So, for now.... thank you for your info, and wisdom,<<< mikeyucell


----------



## mikeyucell

RVGRINGO said:


> Some very good points have been made; especially the 'ambiguity' mentioned by Karen. Whatever you plan and depend upon may change instantly. We both used to have IMSS, but for two years out of nine, there were 'errors in the paperwork' and we discovered, after the fact, that we weren't covered. Fortunately, we didn't need attention. We've also been victims of making payments, but receiving false documents. Others have had good IMSS experiences for serious needs. Maybe it is just a 'crap shoot'.
> At present, we don't have IMSS. We're too old to apply for private insurance and, if we had purchased it before 60, it might now be too expensive. I do have a policy that is included in my retirement, but it requires that I keep both parts of Medicare, so that costs $97 USD per month for no coverage in Mexico. I also have VA coverage in the USA, but not here. So, for an emergency in Mexico we are virtually uncovered. As Makaloco says, the private system is just fine and is affordable for routine care. If I were to suffer a major event and survive, I would hope to be stabilized quickly and avoid major costs. If the result was to be a lingering and expensive situation, I would ask my wife and friends to drive me to the USA and the nearest VA hospital. At my age, however, I would prefer a quick 'exit'.
> My frustration with your long list of questions was primarily the impossible detail that you seemed to want; such that it would have required a survey of expats, over time, and the compilation of the averages that you requested; an impossible task.
> Please consider that many of us came to Mexico before 'technology' could provide instant answers anyway. Most in the Chapala area are very well traveled, educated and adventurous sorts; many having lived abroad as part of their working lives. As such, perhaps we are more adaptable to moves around the globe and less concerned about the details; which we'll sort out when we get there and adapt to as they change. Believe me, they always change. So, prepare yourself for that 'ambiguity' as it intrudes into your life plan. Over planning can take the fun out of life, as the only result of a change in circumstances will be disappointment and/or frustration. We take life as it comes.


lane: Hey RVGRINGO, this forum is better than group therapy... and on monday I will fire my shrink. I even had to as my relatives what ambiguity really meant... only to find out I knew the answer all along. If you check out my last reply you will see I NOW fully understand your point of view.
 Seeing that MURPHY"S LAW has followed me and my relatives all their lives, I have grown overly cautious in too many respects. On my wall I have a saying, " Do not plan your life", I suspect I should put it in a more predominant location. Thank you for your info and I will buckle up and enjoy the ride once I do arrive in Mexico. Like I said before in my last reply, I have been programed to worship fear (insurance company plot to take over the world), and I am sick and tired and I am not going to take it anymore!!!
:focus: Shipping items from Los Angeles to Puerto Vallarta? I have tables, paintings, sculptures, twenty boxes of research papers, computers, etc.... Should I rent a truck and drive it down myself? A ship container or by rail or moving company? What is the most economical and yet safest as my art and papers are irreplaceable? Hey, once again, thanx for all your info and I apologize for being insistent and half-cocked at times (I count a couple so far). But let us move on. lane: Viva viva viva!!!


----------



## RVGRINGO

The 'moneydraining' health care in the USA is one reason many Canadians try to fly over the USA, without landing, on their way to Mexico, or elsewhere. You will find that health care expenses are much less in Mexico, with most people uninsured and able to manage 'out of pocket'. They don't worry so much about it. The 'care part' is much nicer than you are probably accustomed to. Guadalajara has some absolutely fantastic hospitals and I've personal experience with that; and actually enjoyed the stays. So, you are free to give up your 'worshiping'. Bowing down to them is perceived as bending over. You know what they'll do to you then. By the way, there is no 'malpractice insurance' here, so you can see why the costs are so much lower.
As for shipping stuff; you can get a 'menaje de casa' for a 'once in a lifetime' duty free shipment of household goods. You'll need an FM3 no inmigrante visa and then have to ship within a certain time frame. The details are in flux at the moment. However, it will be very expensive, so minimize and consider bringing what you can in your car. Avoid bringing anything new; they'll tax you on that. No, you can't bring a rented vehicle into Mexico. Generally, artwork and artisania can cross duty free in either direction, so you might be able to make multiple trips, depending on the distances involved and your 'visiting schedule'. Of course, your papers and such would not be dutiable either, making that decision easy. If you were to ship them, figure on at least a dollar a pound and the possibility of loss or damage, although that's rare, unless your truckload happens to be one of those that floated down river in the floods a couple of weeks ago. Advice: move in the dry season.


----------



## Malinda

can you direct me to some of the web sites....where I can see houses for rent in different areas.....I'm not finding as much as I would like to see and compare....we are wanting to retire in Mexico...but first need to sell house and business...both are on market...so hoping we can move there in the next 12 months.....the sooner the better....


----------



## RVGRINGO

You can use Google to search for "Bienes Raices en (the name of the city and state in Mexico)". You will find agencies that serve the specified area, if any. Realize that there aren't as many of them in some areas and that they are unregulated and unlicensed in Mexico. Caveat emptor. Remember; Mexico doesn't use websites nearly as much as other countries and those that exist are seldom maintained as well. You may also find that inquiries may not elicit responses. It is not an internet culture here, but it is increasing ever so slowly.


----------



## MexicoKaren

Malinda, the best thing you can do (since you have not given us a clue about where you are planning to settle) is use the Google search engine to search for "long term rentals in Guadalajara, Puerto Vallarta, Ajijic, etc", choosing the particular city that interests you. Be sure to use "long term" or you will end up with vacation properties. 

Mikey, RVG has said it all. We chose to ship two 200 cubic foot containers from Portland, OR. We contracted with an international company to do this - if you want to PM me, I'll give you the website. Mayflower picked up our stuff and packed it, carried it as far as the border, then switched to Seymi, a Mexican company. They handled all the paperwork, and we did have a Menage de Casa. It cost us $6200. That was 4.5 years ago. They did a fine job and nothing got broken. Much of what we shipped was artwork that we earlier acquired during trips to Mexico, as well as our own artwork - we are both artists - and paintings/pottery from friends. We have since regretted bringing boxes full of books and papers that get mildewed and eaten by termites. You may want to think about scanning your research papers and keeping them on your computer. And I have been told that shipping by sea is not reliable, but others may know differently.


----------



## mikeyucell

MexicoKaren said:


> Malinda, the best thing you can do (since you have not given us a clue about where you are planning to settle) is use the Google search engine to search for "long term rentals in Guadalajara, Puerto Vallarta, Ajijic, etc", choosing the particular city that interests you. Be sure to use "long term" or you will end up with vacation properties.
> 
> Mikey, RVG has said it all. We chose to ship two 200 cubic foot containers from Portland, OR. We contracted with an international company to do this - if you want to PM me, I'll give you the website. Mayflower picked up our stuff and packed it, carried it as far as the border, then switched to Seymi, a Mexican company. They handled all the paperwork, and we did have a Menage de Casa. It cost us $6200. That was 4.5 years ago. They did a fine job and nothing got broken. Much of what we shipped was artwork that we earlier acquired during trips to Mexico, as well as our own artwork - we are both artists - and paintings/pottery from friends. We have since regretted bringing boxes full of books and papers that get mildewed and eaten by termites. You may want to think about scanning your research papers and keeping them on your computer. And I have been told that shipping by sea is not reliable, but others may know differently.


:ranger: Malinda.... google google google... anything connected with housing... rentals, leases... homes for sale or rent... condos for sale or rent... do the footwork and never loose heart. The smartest thing you can do is tell the forum "what area" you are interested in. You would be surprised just how much the Expats can and will help direct you... they helped me considerably so far and I still have a minimum of 6 months to go in the states before I migrate. 
:focus:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
:ranger: Thank you MEXKAR, just a couple quick Q's : #1. What is the time frame of getting the FM3 till you ship via "Menage de Casa"? 
#2. How do you PM? (fell asleep during that class)
lane: Thanks for the heads up on the mildew and termites... I have extensive research papers (at least dozen cases) and a 10 case rare book collection. I may have to part with them (sell or donate) or downsize considerably, or find some way of using and storing them with/out damage>>> like up at Lake Chapala, maybe?
:confused2: What about framed paintings and large rare framed prints... are they subject to weather and bug damage? 
 Wow, never thought of those problems before... thanks for the info!!! suerte.(sp?)


----------



## Malinda

MexicoKaren said:


> Malinda, the best thing you can do (since you have not given us a clue about where you are planning to settle) is use the Google search engine to search for "long term rentals in Guadalajara, Puerto Vallarta, Ajijic, etc", choosing the particular city that interests you. Be sure to use "long term" or you will end up with vacation properties.
> 
> Mikey, RVG has said it all. We chose to ship two 200 cubic foot containers from Portland, OR. We contracted with an international company to do this - if you want to PM me, I'll give you the website. Mayflower picked up our stuff and packed it, carried it as far as the border, then switched to Seymi, a Mexican company. They handled all the paperwork, and we did have a Menage de Casa. It cost us $6200. That was 4.5 years ago. They did a fine job and nothing got broken. Much of what we shipped was artwork that we earlier acquired during trips to Mexico, as well as our own artwork - we are both artists - and paintings/pottery from friends. We have since regretted bringing boxes full of books and papers that get mildewed and eaten by termites. You may want to think about scanning your research papers and keeping them on your computer. And I have been told that shipping by sea is not reliable, but others may know differently.


Thank you for replying....we have no firm idea where we might want to move....we have looked at several locations...San Miquil....all the way to the yucatan.....we assume...the best way to know is to come down rent a hotel for a while and then decide....we know we will rent for at least a year before we even consider buying....we had planned to only bring a few things....what we can mostly bring the car....maybe bring a few things each time we visit home.....but no furniture.....few things that have some meaning...to us.

M


----------



## MexicoKaren

Thank you MEXKAR, just a couple quick Q's : #1. What is the time frame of getting the FM3 till you ship via "Menage de Casa"? 
#2. How do you PM? (fell asleep during that class)
lane: Thanks for the heads up on the mildew and termites... I have extensive research papers (at least dozen cases) and a 10 case rare book collection. I may have to part with them (sell or donate) or downsize considerably, or find some way of using and storing them with/out damage>>> like up at Lake Chapala, maybe?
:confused2: What about framed paintings and large rare framed prints... are they subject to weather and bug damage? 
 Wow, never thought of those problems before... thanks for the info!!! suerte.(sp?)[/QUOTE]

The immigration laws have just changed, and no one seems to be sure how the changes affected tranporting your household goods. Your BEST source for this kind of information is rollybrookdotcom. He says that "_In the past you had to get a menaje de casa from your area Mexican consulate within 6 months after your FM3, you then had 90 days to complete your move. Now that the menaje de casa seems to be a thing of the past, the question arises about time constraints. Is it still 6 months? Or is there no time limit? I don't know the answer. I have read reports from several people who have been allow to brings their belongings long after 6 months. You should discuss this with your mover if you want to move more than 6 months after you get your FM3._"

So that whole issue is kind of up in the air right now.

You might want to think about gifting your rare books. I had a 10 volume set of Shakespeare plays, biography, etc. that was 200 years old. I am SO glad that I gave it to a friend who loves Shakespeare as much as I do. He was thrilled, and he'll pass them on to his daughter, who shares his enthusiasm. We have had no problems so far with any framed painting or prints. Unless they are oil or acrylic, they should be protected by glass (with a tiny bit of air space in between the glass and the painting/print.) I paint in gouache, and everything I paint can be damaged by moisture, but so far, no damage.

To PM, click on my name and choose "send a private message."


----------



## mikeyucell

MexicoKaren said:


> Thank you MEXKAR, just a couple quick Q's : #1. What is the time frame of getting the FM3 till you ship via "Menage de Casa"?
> #2. How do you PM? (fell asleep during that class)
> lane: Thanks for the heads up on the mildew and termites... I have extensive research papers (at least dozen cases) and a 10 case rare book collection. I may have to part with them (sell or donate) or downsize considerably, or find some way of using and storing them with/out damage>>> like up at Lake Chapala, maybe?
> :confused2: What about framed paintings and large rare framed prints... are they subject to weather and bug damage?
> Wow, never thought of those problems before... thanks for the info!!! suerte.(sp?)


The immigration laws have just changed, and no one seems to be sure how the changes affected tranporting your household goods. Your BEST source for this kind of information is rollybrookdotcom. He says that "_In the past you had to get a menaje de casa from your area Mexican consulate within 6 months after your FM3, you then had 90 days to complete your move. Now that the menaje de casa seems to be a thing of the past, the question arises about time constraints. Is it still 6 months? Or is there no time limit? I don't know the answer. I have read reports from several people who have been allow to brings their belongings long after 6 months. You should discuss this with your mover if you want to move more than 6 months after you get your FM3._"

So that whole issue is kind of up in the air right now.

You might want to think about gifting your rare books. I had a 10 volume set of Shakespeare plays, biography, etc. that was 200 years old. I am SO glad that I gave it to a friend who loves Shakespeare as much as I do. He was thrilled, and he'll pass them on to his daughter, who shares his enthusiasm. We have had no problems so far with any framed painting or prints. Unless they are oil or acrylic, they should be protected by glass (with a tiny bit of air space in between the glass and the painting/print.) I paint in gouache, and everything I paint can be damaged by moisture, but so far, no damage.

To PM, click on my name and choose "send a private message."[/QUOTE]
:ranger: MEXKAR, thanks for the info. For now I will plan to store most everything big. As for the artwork, I will have it properly sealed for display in a humid environment. The research paperwork, I will have it copied to a zip drive. And the books... that is a hard one... maybe a gift. Or, I could liquidate everything at auction and spend the money on medical insurance and getting a nicer casa.... just kidding. At least I have months to think it over, and then I could store everything once I do depart... and have up to another six months to ponder the fate of my legacy. Like George Carlin once did a bit about too much stuff, if it doesn't fit in a suitcase (can carry it with you), you probably have too much stuff. But George passed on... and he didn't take anything with him. So... maybe he was right after all. Viva Viva!! Till we thread again.


----------



## mikeyucell

Malinda said:


> Thank you for replying....we have no firm idea where we might want to move....we have looked at several locations...San Miquil....all the way to the yucatan.....we assume...the best way to know is to come down rent a hotel for a while and then decide....we know we will rent for at least a year before we even consider buying....we had planned to only bring a few things....what we can mostly bring the car....maybe bring a few things each time we visit home.....but no furniture.....few things that have some meaning...to us.
> 
> M


:juggle: Malinda... staying for an entire year before buying is smart. It took the forum scores of replies before it finally sunk in my thick skull that being impulsive in Mexico is a formula for disaster. It is important to get the lay of the land and feel the seasons and the changes in the subtle surroundings. I also, plan to lease or rent for several months before buying... that is unless I find an absolutely perfect place... but so far in my life and with 3 x marriages... looks and first impressions can be deceiving. You will find your haven. As some already have, eventually we all will. :clap2:


----------



## Chali Chan

*Safety guns*

RVGRINGO SAID

"As for guns; put that so far out of your mind that you don't ever consider it again. Bringing even a spent cartridge into Mexico will land you in the nearest prison. Mexico has only one gun store; the Army! If you were to get a permit for one, it must never leave your home."

That is not totally accurate, yes Mexico is a one gun shop. However the Mexican constitution allows all citizens (considering your legal and not a convicted criminal) to own handguns, shotguns and rifles up to .30 caliber. You also can have permits to carry up to four firearms in your vehicle in up to 14 Mexican states. This also allows you to own up to 10 firearms with a maximum power of a 30.06.

IF your state has a Rod and Gun Club equal to Campo de Tiro you can register their. 
First you must get a paper from the PGJ stating you have no prior arrests that conflict with the laws (antecedents). Then you must have a drug evaluation and thirdly you then have a psych evaluation. Very easy and can be done in just a few days. After you pass the tests you can then go to the National Armory and you then have a plethura of arms to choose from (not cheap). You pick what arms you like and submit your paperwork. You then must wait a couple weeks to process your paperwork and they check if you qualify for the arms you have chosen. 
Then you return and pick up your arms and at the same time obtain your transportation permits for your arms (4 max) at a time.

Now that you have your arms their are a couple limits on your transportation freedom. 1. Tranportation of firearms are only permitted between your HOME/or temporary habitation while travelling and another Campo de Tiro. So it would make sense that if you are an avid sharpshooter you can be enroute to any of the Campo de Tiros in as many as 14 states in this fine country. 
Now permits for hunting are allowed to accommodate for the high power 30.06 and similar firearms. 
Happy hunting and buy a real good gun safe. Also study the costs of permits, some people will try to charge an arm and a leg for a permit that costs very little.

I got my permits and a year at a nice club for less than 4000 pesos. 
This is a lot easier and less hassle than getting a home permit for protection let me emphasize that. The local constable is not happy in giving out permits that may end up having a relative shot. With the Campo de Tiro their is no questioning or contact with law enforcement on a one to one basis for the need for a firearm.
The reason may be asked on your "antecedents" paperwork. However that I think is none of their business and you can put down for employment reason. This is not illegal and protects your privacy rights. What is important is that your record is clean.
It's your right as a Mexican Citizen or LEGAL registered resident.
Lots of olympic target shooting, Turkey shoots, skeet and competition. Just like the U.S and Europe. The bars are well stocked here too.
Have Fun


----------



## RVGRINGO

The discussion is not about getting guns legally, once you are a legal resident. It was about bringing guns to Mexico. Please don't confuse the issue.


----------



## NORM123

mikeyucell said:


> :juggle: Thank you for understanding and shooting from the hip. I have entrenched myself into this forum and appreciate each and every word of advice given to me, hard or easy, I dig it all. I am far from perfect (my 3 ex's can testify to that), & going off about the sultry heat & the language over and over again IS productive in a back alley way. I enjoy different viewpoints, as I only have one, & at times it is very self contained, repetitious, & shallow. I am grateful to have found in these forums, "the real experts, guides, and Masters" of what I seek. :focus: I have possibly up to several months before I am ready to go down there to scout out the "greater" (3 hour radius) Puerto Vallarta area. Just as you sat in your kitchen & researched for an entire year before you made your quest, so am I trying to learn and soak in every morsel of info that comes my way. Can you relate to me just how you researched? What were you looking for? Where did you find it (on the web?), and when and how did you make initial contact? And when you finally arrived, how was your Spanish and how long before you actually purchased? What were your main concerns in your choice, like weather or cost of living or atmosphere or views or golf or what?
> :ranger: You see, Sunny, without all (forum) of your help, I would be trapped in my own world, basically lost as I have been all my life, and just the thought of having a "fresh start" in Mexico is what keeps me going. Thanks for all your info, and please, feel free to offer more... I can handle anything after the 3 ex's + a life of hard knocks,  I just got off a reality website and the same houses, villas, and condos I didn't like a week ago, now seem very appealing, & the only thing that changed in my perspective is this forum. thank you all and have a great week... ps... any more buzz on the PV area that might help me in finding a happy home? Buenas Noches lane:


here's my 2 cents. Lived in P.V. since April, in the romantic zone. I'm used to hot, born in L.A., San fernando Valley where summertime it's in the 90's and sometimes the 100's, love poolside in Palm Springs and Las Vegas. But here, during the summer there's no such thing as a breeze, you walk around with a cloth to wipe your face, go for a nice 2 mile walk and you'll look like you just ran a marathon. Air conditioning on most of the time. I find the humidity unbearable and I'm moving!


----------



## Dmexx

We are currently in Manzanillo. We have been here since mid-June. We chose the worse time of year on purpose. The weather is has tested us. It it just now becoming tolerable, altho it is likely we won't choose ZLO as our permanent home. This problem with sweltering summers is common to all coastal cities in Mexico. If we could only afford two homes!

We chose to check-out ZLO because our budget for a home is the same as yours and ZLO has more affordable housing. You can find a condo on the beach or with a view of the beach for less than $300K. 

Go on line and check ZLO real estate. A word of caution. ZLO is a working port. It is not pretty or chic like PV. That may be one of its attractions for some.

Andale Pues,

Dmexx


----------



## MexicoKaren

One of the reasons we chose to move out of PV for a smaller town (Bucerias) was the summer heat. We loved the south side of Vallarta, but it is all cement and buildings, and cobbled streets that absorb the heat and hold it. The breeze from the ocean is blocked by buildings...just a short distance away (15k) it is much cooler and breezier.


----------



## mikeyucell

MexicoKaren said:


> One of the reasons we chose to move out of PV for a smaller town (Bucerias) was the summer heat. We loved the south side of Vallarta, but it is all cement and buildings, and cobbled streets that absorb the heat and hold it. The breeze from the ocean is blocked by buildings...just a short distance away (15k) it is much cooler and breezier.


 Just saying hello.  in the midddddle of a horrific remodel on my house in Seal Beach. After it is complete, if my funds are not totally depleted, the house goes on the market and when it sells, I can finally gear my sights towards the greater PV area. :spit: I couldn't have made it this far without every expat's help and words of wisdom. I thank you all for that. 
:focus: MexKar, you speak highly of Bucerias. It will surely be one of my first stops once I pry myself away from the overly fast paced, socially brutal and cold hostile environment I now call home (the greater Los Angeles area). Survival in the Mexican costal summer is something I will have to adapt to, :boxing: that is why I need access to a pool and secondly, the ocean............ and a breeze would be nice also. You have survived there and even do it without AC, which I consider artificial and expensive. Anyway, keep the fans running, I will be down there before next summer (hopefully a lot earlier).


----------



## MexicoKaren

Looking forward to meeting you, Mikey - Let us know when you are coming and best of luck selling your house.


----------

