# Spain is Dying (title of a depressing set of videos on youtube)



## adelante

Hi, I am looking into moving to Spain - not now, but in a couple of years, but keeping an open mind with regards to the situation over there. Trying to get as much information as possible.

I have seen this scary  3 part set of vids on youtube, called ´Spain is Dying´. My question to those of you over there now, is this indicative of the true situation - or is the guy hyping things up?






And a wider question. If you had the chance to do it again, relocate to another country - where would you choose? Is the answer anywhere out of the EuroZone? Where has all the good things that Spain offers, but minus the mega economic problems?


----------



## xicoalc

What a drepressing and one sided video! I couldn't watch it all! It's almost as bad as the BBC programme that recently gave the impression that in Spain every restaurant or bar or taxi will screw you and rip you off - just what the country needs! 

Of course spain has been severly his by the global economic crisis (but emphasis on global). Tourism is down, everything is down and consequently the economy is suffering but this is a story echoed throughout the world. The video shows an incomplete development and yes there are many of these - I live on one where my villa is in a cluster of 6 surrounded by unstarted plots (although I quite like the tranquility!). 

I live close to Benidorm and this summer season it was heaving with tourists - not so many Brits as normal but many spanish from Madrid, Barcelona etc, all of whom are holidaying within their own country this year just like many Brits have gone to Blackpool instead of Spain!

I think if you hunt hard enough you will find run down derelict blocks of flats, and yes you will certainly see closed businesses. Trying to be optimistic though you also see some businesses doing well (particularly those who have adapted to a changing market). However if you walk through most towns you notice them a little quiter than normal, but nevertheless open, up and running. Towns local to me this season have been a bustle of activity, thriving atmosphere and in _some _respects appeared as normal. 

Dare I say it, on a selfish point of view it has been nice to be flooded with Spanish tourists rather than the brit lager louts that inevitably cause trouble and hassle for the locals (even though I know its those drunks who bring in the money!)

Spain did indeed have many years of boom and at some point the inevitable bust was bound to happen. Banks were lending money to developers like water from a leaky tap (but this was the same in the UK with 100%+ mortgages and 125% LTV remortgages). Just like the UK banks suffered, indeed the Spanish ones have too. Go to any banks website and there are endless repo properties going cheap to the highest bidder. BUT like everything this will change, it may take time but as the recession lifts in other parts of Europe, tourism will increase, employment figures will improve, banks will lend again, people will come back and things will return to some resemblence of normal.

In my humble opinion the recession in the UK was worsened by news stories putting the fear of god into people and stopping them from trying to live a normal life. Crap like this on the internet may have some elements of truth but are serving no other purpose than to put people off Spain, both tourists and expats who may want to move out, bring money, invest, and do their bit towards rebuilding the countries economy.

Unemployment is high (very high) but that is mainly down to tourism and construction (the two worst hit sectors) being accountable for the majority of employment. What Spain needs is more people bringing their money, buying the houses, coming on holiday and it wont take much for things to begin to turn the corner. What Spain doesnt need is bitter do-gooders posting videos on youtube that portray it as some 3rd world country that has been deserted by everyone!

*If I could do it all over again where would I go to.....ermmm... Spain! * For the wonderful people, beautiful climate, excellent healthcare, niggling little annoyances that we grow to love, and general all round fantastic lifestyle. My advice to anyone is that if you can afford to do it (and are not desperate for work right now - particularly in the building or hospitality businesses, and particularly if you speak no spanish) then go for it and join the rest of us that are proud to live in such a wonderful country.

Yes it's tough now - but it;s tough everywhere!


----------



## mrypg9

I agree with most but not all of what you have written, Steve. Spain's current problems with the bond market are due not to the proportion of debt to GDP or the deficit, neither of which are that alarming by world standards. It is the prospect of low growth which alarms and unsettles the markets.
Some but not all of this dismal prospect is due to structural problems such as an over-rigid labour market and a lack of entrepreneurial ambition - venture capital is hard to come by in Spain.
Imo tourism and more speculative building aren't the path to take - it's trying to turn Spain into the Florida of Europe that was a main cause of the problem. On the whole, Spain does not attract high-net-worth immigrants or tourists and building booms are notoriously prone to bust.
But Spain is certainly not dying. The world's nineth largest and Europe's fourth largest economy has life in it yet despite what some disillusioned punters may think.


----------



## Alcalaina

A very depressing and negative video - I couldn't bring myself to watch the other two. 

He seems to be focussing on coastal tourist areas, where it is true there are a lot of unsold houses and empty commercial centres due to overzealous speculation before the credit crash. 
But these areas aren't "typical" Spain. The rest of the country is nothing like this video. There is dreadfully high unemployment, for sure, but life goes on; ferias, fiestas, family meals on Sundays, free open-air concerts, holidays by the sea ... the Spanish people are made of tougher stuff and aren't letting the recession stop them enjoying life.

I have absolutely no regrets about moving here and I urge you not to let this miserable eejit put you off!


----------



## 90199

That might be the case on the peninsular, but here I see hope, construction sites are being worked, hire car companies had a busy August, the bars appear busier.

The video was doom and gloom, with a London Accent.

If I had the choice of destination again, probably here but, I have always had an inkling for Argentina.

hepa


----------



## sensationalfrog

living on the costa del sol,i think the video hit the nail on the head,it is like that in some areas,people have lost a lot of money,but still they come for their dream business in the sun,i just laugh as they wouldnt listen to me as they just believe what the commercial agents tell them,i see them most days with their new gullible ex-pats-to-be,the only good thing for them is they wont lose as much these days as commercial leases are a lot cheaper


----------



## jojo

sensationalfrog said:


> living on the costa del sol,i think the video hit the nail on the head,it is like that in some areas,people have lost a lot of money,but still they come for their dream business in the sun,i just laugh as they wouldnt listen to me as they just believe what the commercial agents tell them,i see them most days with their new gullible ex-pats-to-be,the only good thing for them is they wont lose as much these days as commercial leases are a lot cheaper


Mr. Cynical LOL!!!
I've not looked at the video cos I'm here and can see how things are and I dont want to even comment on it. All I will say is that before moving here, people should do their homework, work out properly how they can survive and make money and to stop seeing Spain as some kind of easy option cos it isnt. If you live in the UK , have a home, job and family there, then for now that will be the easiest and safest bet! Whatever the UK throws at you, however bad you think it is there, there are some great safety nets. There are none in Spain

Jo xxx


----------



## Thader

Too many Brits thought they could come to Spain, open a bar and make lots of money. Maybe some did at first, but the drop in the exchange rate and the realization that that we do have a winter and they can't rely on tourists all the year hit home. Most of us who live here, don't spend much or any time in the type of premises shown on the video. Close to where I live, a new Mercadona supermarket is in the process of being built in Benijofar and a couple of kilometres away in Rojales a new shopping precinct is well under way which will also includes a Consum supemarket. If the future is all doom and gloom as has been suggested, would the companies risk their money on these projects.
CD


----------



## mrypg9

jojo said:


> Mr. Cynical LOL!!!
> I've not looked at the video cos I'm here and can see how things are and I dont want to even comment on it. All I will say is that before moving here, people should do their homework, work out properly how they can survive and make money and to stop seeing Spain as some kind of easy option cos it isnt. If you live in the UK , have a home, job and family there, then for now that will be the easiest and safest bet! Whatever the UK throws at you, however bad you think it is there, there are some great safety nets. There are none in Spain
> 
> Jo xxx


I'm fascinated by the relationship between Spain and some Brits. All this talk about 'living the dream'....Are people really so dissatisfied with their lives that they need to have some idealised vision of life revolving around sun, sea and swimming pools? If so, how sad.......
Running away -because that's what it is -rarely turns out to be as imagined.
The people who settle happily here imo are those who have had established, happy lives in the UK. They bring their level-headedness and contentment with them, don't expect paradise and learn to cope with all the little niggles and adjustments living in a foreign country entails.
Then there are those who seem to think Spain is a British colony. They come with a sense of entitlement, speak no Spanish and make no effort to and regard Spain as a 'third world' country (an outdated term in itself) and the Spaniards as backward morons.
People with problems of any kind in the UK or wherever often tend to bring them to Spain. Dissatisfaction is in itself no guarantee of a successful immigration experience.
It's now autumn. The weather in the UK isn't good. Unemployment is rising. Memories of those cheap holidays in the sun linger.
So get ready for the next wave of 'I'm a plasterer/carpenter/plumber/handyman/will do anything' posts........


----------



## dunmovin

Thader said:


> Too many Brits thought they could come to Spain, open a bar and make lots of money. Maybe some did at first, but the drop in the exchange rate and the realization that that we do have a winter and they can't rely on tourists all the year hit home. Most of us who live here, don't spend much or any time in the type of premises shown on the video. Close to where I live, a new Mercadona supermarket is in the process of being built in Benijofar and a couple of kilometres away in Rojales a new shopping precinct is well under way which will also includes a Consum supemarket. If the future is all doom and gloom as has been suggested, would the companies risk their money on these projects.
> CD


Well said. and these videos.... I got a little way through the 1st and decided it was just a huge ammount of bovine excrement...just another plonker trying to get their 15mins of fame by jumping on the "spain bashers" bandwagon. I could take a camcoder, do three days in Britan and make a vid that would portray Britain as in a worse econmic situation than Somalia,then post it on the net and someone would say"is Britain really like this?" 


Putting any faith on what is posted on YouTube....... well


----------



## adelante

I am soooo glad you all responded in the way you did. I have been to Spain many times, and have never seen the ghettos featured in this series. I was in Altea in July, and it was quiet during the day - but admittedly it was 5 squillion degrees celsius outside, during an intense heatwave, but obviously not as quiet as the videos. Night-times saw the town buzzing with people.

I thought the videos were over hyped, itś easy to look for the negative anywhere. Thanks again.


----------



## mrypg9

I hope those clips deter some of those born losers who come to Spain thinking they can make a quick buck from some crazy ill-thought-through 'business' venture.
They fail...quelle surprise....and blame Spain for their own shortcomings.
T*****s!!!!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

I didn't get through more than one video either!!

I agree with a lot that people have posted already.

Spain definitely *does* have economic problems, which means that there's high unemployment, little growth and some areas of industry and some areas of the country with more problems than others. 
You will see areas, in fact kilometres of half finished buildings. I've seen them myself! You can see little shopping centres that are like the one he filmed - in fact I think I've been to that one! And they are very sad areas, but...
Why on earth would a foreign family come in and completely refurbish a bar in a shopping centre in a dying area thinking they can make a go of it when others haven't? OK, there was a fine to pay that they didn't know about. It's terrible, but they didn't do their research properly. Then they got fined because people were outside drinking. Local drinking laws - you've got to know them. Find out _*before.
*_
So, for me it's clear. Spain has problems. Earning a living in Spain is not easy nowadays. If opening a business in the UK is difficult think about doing it in a different country, in a different language and the country is going through an economic recession. 
But Spain is not dead and there is life, what's more a _*good*_ life, for people who are prepared.
If you think you've got smth to offer Spain and you're not just running away from a country you dislike to a country that's in trouble... If you think that you're up to it... great - but you have been warned!!


----------



## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky;376280
.
If you think you've got smth to offer Spain and you're not just running away from a country you dislike to a country that's in trouble... If you think that you're up to it... great - but you have been warned!![/QUOTE said:


> That should be printed on a sheet of A5 in very large print and handed to everyone leaving the UK for Spain with a 'dream' in their heads.


----------



## dunmovin

mrypg9 said:


> That should be printed on a sheet of A5 in very large print and handed to everyone leaving the UK for Spain with a 'dream' in their heads.


Why? A lot of them would not or could not read it.:ranger:


----------



## mrypg9

dunmovin said:


> Why? A lot of them would not or could not read it.:ranger:


Sadly I must admit you are right.......


----------



## xicoalc

oooh i love these forums - they always make me smile!


----------



## Beachcomber

The recession is only a part of the reason for the slump in the property market and the situation will not improve, at least in Andalucía, until the regional government addresses the problem of so-called illegal properties which are said to total three hundred thousand in Málaga alone and the national government restores 'buena fe' in the wholly discredited property registration system.

Virtually every country property built in Andalucía since 2002 has been built illegally but they are still being handled by unscrupulous estate agents who will say anything to achieve a sale and money grabbing lawyers who will go along with them.

That's not to mention sheds that are sold as dwellings and properties constructed on proindiviso land. It has been said many times that no-one should purchase a property in Spain unless they can afford to lose all of their money and have retained a property in the UK to which they can return if things go wrong. This applies now more so than ever before and for every foreigner who has managed to get out in one piece there are another two who are unable to do so because they cannot sell their property at any price. I would add that although I know many people in that situation I am not actually one of them so I am not writing from that perspective.

As for the video, whilst it is obviously impossible to substantiate the claims in respect of individual instances of dereliction and abandonment, I didn't find anything it it that could be said to be untrue. One sided maybe but not untrue. If I have any criticism of the video it would have to be of the dreadful background music playing part 3.

I know the rose coloured spectacle wearers will have a field day with this post but so be it. I know also that my opinions are echoed by many people across the province foreign and Spanish alike. The heyday of residential tourism in Spain has been and gone never, in my opinion and most of theirs, to return.


----------



## dunmovin

Beachcomber said:


> The recession is only a part of the reason for the slump in the property market and the situation will not improve, at least in Andalucía, until the regional government addresses the problem of so-called illegal properties which are said to total three hundred thousand in Málaga alone and the national government restores 'buena fe' in the wholly discredited property registration system.
> 
> Virtually every country property built in Andalucía since 2002 has been built illegally but they are still being handled by unscrupulous estate agents who will say anything to achieve a sale and money grabbing lawyers who will go along with them.
> 
> That's not to mention sheds that are sold as dwellings and properties constructed on proindiviso land. It has been said many times that no-one should purchase a property in Spain unless they can afford to lose all of their money and have retained a property in the UK to which they can return if things go wrong. This applies now more so than ever before and for every foreigner who has managed to get out in one piece there are another two who are unable to do so because they cannot sell their property at any price. I would add that although I know many people in that situation I am not actually one of them so I am not writing from that perspective.
> 
> As for the video, whilst it is obviously impossible to substantiate the claims in respect of individual instances of dereliction and abandonment, I didn't find anything it it that could be said to be untrue. One sided maybe but not untrue. If I have any criticism of the video it would have to be of the dreadful background music playing part 3.
> 
> I know the rose coloured spectacle wearers will have a field day with this post but so be it. I know also that my opinions are echoed by many people across the province foreign and Spanish alike. The heyday of residential tourism in Spain has been and gone never, in my opinion and most of theirs, to return.


The moment I see that phrase, I know the poster has already adopted the attitude of "My viewpoint is correct and unless you share that viewpoint, the rest of you can ****** off"
As I said in an earlier post, it is possible to take a video camera and make Britain look like Somalia and whilst it is obviously impossible to substantiate the claims,here is an old saying "throw enough mud at someone and some of it will stick"

Yes Spain does have it's problems, but it's far from dying.


----------



## dunmovin

Beachcomber said:


> The recession is only a part of the reason for the slump in the property market and the situation will not improve, at least in Andalucía, until the regional government addresses the problem of so-called illegal properties which are said to total three hundred thousand in Málaga alone and the national government restores 'buena fe' in the wholly discredited property registration system.
> 
> Virtually every country property built in Andalucía since 2002 has been built illegally but they are still being handled by unscrupulous estate agents who will say anything to achieve a sale and money grabbing lawyers who will go along with them.
> 
> That's not to mention sheds that are sold as dwellings and properties constructed on proindiviso land. It has been said many times that no-one should purchase a property in Spain unless they can afford to lose all of their money and have retained a property in the UK to which they can return if things go wrong. This applies now more so than ever before and for every foreigner who has managed to get out in one piece there are another two who are unable to do so because they cannot sell their property at any price. I would add that although I know many people in that situation I am not actually one of them so I am not writing from that perspective.
> 
> As for the video, whilst it is obviously impossible to substantiate the claims in respect of individual instances of dereliction and abandonment, I didn't find anything it it that could be said to be untrue. One sided maybe but not untrue. If I have any criticism of the video it would have to be of the dreadful background music playing part 3.
> 
> I know the rose coloured spectacle wearers will have a field day with this post but so be it. I know also that my opinions are echoed by many people across the province foreign and Spanish alike. The heyday of residential tourism in Spain has been and gone never, in my opinion and most of theirs, to return.


how can you generalise things like this? If you are to believed, then every house bought in the campo has been built illegally, every agent is a crook and aided and abbetted by lawyers.

Again, on generalisation, how exactly do YOU know that YOUR opinions are "echoed by many people across the province"?how many people and across what spectrum of lifestyles did you ask. There was a time when everyone "knew the world was flat"

Whilst I respect your right to an opinion, it would be more believeable if you could back it up with solid facts.


----------



## owdoggy

Where we are, near Arboleas (Albox), there are a lot of people affected by illegal builds but there are plans to try & make all but the ones that are in a dangerous position (too close to ramblas etc.) legal. The cost to the home owner for all of this is unknown so there’s still plenty of clarty stuff that could hit the fan but there’s light at the end of the tunnel…….. it’s a bloody long tunnel I’ll grant you but it’s light never the less.

Now, with all this going on you’d think that this area would be about as popular as a fart in a space suit and the local economy would be failing faster than a rat goes up a drainpipe but strangely not. The area is getting a bit of a facelift, but more importantly most local businesses seem to be, considering the recession, ticking over adequately and in some cases even doing quite well. 

Estate agents are getting a few rentals and the odd sale….. oh, by the way, to suggest that all estate agents are money grabbing, lying cheats is just plain bollox. There’s a second hand car company fairly local to us that is going from strength to strength & knocked out seven cars just last week (it's surprising who you get talking to at a gig). A local metalwork company has so much work on that they’ve taken on more staff and there’s two new bars opened here in the last six months, the first one that opened appears to be doing well, the other has just opened so we'll have to wait & see. In the interests of accuracy I will keep checking on their progress for you & report back

How can this be in an area with all it’s problems, in the midst of a recession and that is part of a country that’s supposed to be dying? …..I haven’t a clue but I don’t wear rose coloured spectacles and have a tendency to call a spade a spade so can only tell it how it is.

Make of the above what you will but to suggest that Spain, or more accurately this part of it, is dying would appear to be wrong.




Doggy


----------



## gus-lopez

Well i'm afraid I've got to agree with Beachcomer. I know of her from other forums where she is well respected both for info. & legal knowledge. I looked in areas of Andalucia & was appalled by what I saw, the info. being given out by agents,being shown 'new builds' in ramblas, etc; & that was many years ago. The amount of people that have bought 'naves' ,& extended them defies belief . The area where owdoggy is ,is one of the worst affected taking in Albox, oria, Rambla de oria, etc; where in my estimation 1 in 10 might be legal & the estimates vary between 2,2oo & 4000 + illegal builds. Then you've got to take in to account the ones that are legal , with all paperwork,building licences, licence of 1st occupation, electricity, water, all legally connected, escrituras,paying Ibi, etc, etc; that now find themselves illegal as the regional government has rescinded the original building licences in a dispute with the local authorities !! Politics of the madhouse , whilst playing with the lives & health of the ordinary people. 
How anyone would even consider buying in that area when even the slightest research will throw up multitudes of horror stories amazes me, yet they still do. 
The situation owdoggy has described , whilst a start , shouldn't be anything to do with the people who bought in good faith, relying on local solicitors , doing everything correctly, to find themselves being asked to pay for infrastructure that should already be in. it's going to take years , if ever, & needs to be addressed by central government stepping in & sorting it out. 
You have 000's of people living in houses where they are paying no ibi, nor for the rubbish collections even if they want to as they are deemed illegal ! If they got some revenue in they might be able to complete the road through Albox that's been going on for years & appears to have run out of money !
I consider that I know what I am doing but there's not much I would touch in Andalucia if it wasn't 100 years old ! Mind you there's nothing I'd look at in Valencia either while they're still allowing the ' land grab' law to be used.

As owdoggy says I was suprised by the activity in & around the area recently with quite a few new shops & bars opening , very similar to where I live so it would appear it's not all doom & gloom.


----------



## Beachcomber

dunmovin said:


> how can you generalise things like this... it would be more believeable if you could back it up with solid facts.


I can 'generalise things like this' because it is not my opinion or viewpoint it is a matter of law and the 'solid facts' are contained therein:

http://www.juntadeandalucia.es/viviendayordenaciondelterritorio/www/servlet/descargacopt?up=10032

Perhaps you would like to read it then comment further.


----------



## dunmovin

dunmovin said:


> *how can you generalise things like this? If you are to believed, then every house bought in the campo has been built illegally, every agent is a crook and aided and abbetted by lawyers.
> 
> Again, on generalisation, how exactly do YOU know that YOUR opinions are "echoed by many people across the province"?how many people and across what spectrum of lifestyles did you ask. * There was a time when everyone "knew the world was flat"
> 
> Whilst I respect your right to an opinion, it would be more believeable if you could back it up with solid facts.


I don't understand enough Spanish to read the document you mentioned (as do a lot of people on this forum) and I would still be interested in hearing the rationale behind the underlined points of my posts i.e every house built illegally, all agents and lawyers are crooks and how you arrived at the conculsion that many people share your opinionand could you quantify MANY? is it 10 or 100 or thousands?


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Beachcomber said:


> I can 'generalise things like this' because it is not my opinion or viewpoint it is a matter of law and the 'solid facts' are contained therein:
> 
> http://www.juntadeandalucia.es/viviendayordenaciondelterritorio/www/servlet/descargacopt?up=10032
> 
> Perhaps you would like to read it then comment further.


I wouldn't mind reading the part which deems properties built in Andalucia from 2002 onwards are largely illegal, but the document has 62 pages!! Any clues to tell me where it talks about this.

As for the youtube video, I only saw the first, but from what was said there I would agree with you, it's too one sided, although there's some truth in it. I would argue that the title needs to be changed. How about
_*Parts of Spain along the coast have been hit especially hard by the recession and perhaps you should think long and hard about coming to this area if you want to earn a living and keep a family*_.


----------



## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> I wouldn't mind reading the part which deems properties built in Andalucia from 2002 onwards are largely illegal, but the document has 62 pages!! Any clues to tell me where it talks about this.
> 
> As for the youtube video, I only saw the first, but from what was said there I would agree with you, it's too one sided, although there's some truth in it. I would argue that the title needs to be changed. How about
> _*Parts of Spain along the coast have been hit especially hard by the recession and perhaps you should think long and hard about coming to this area if you want to earn a living and keep a family*_.


I've just watched the first one - yes a bit one-sided with some truth in it

I took a walk around the port here yesterday - I don't do it often cos of my mobility problems - but I was having a good day so gave it a go


since last time I had a good look around a few weeks ago, several more business have shut up shop & gone - some which I thought were 'stayers', some which you know when they open won't be around long

unless you live here you wouldn't realise what is going on

not many shops stay empty for long - someone always comes along & takes the unit pretty quickly so I fully expect new businesses to be in those units before I go for another wander



I've just started to watch the second one

what he says about the Spanish postal service can be true - but what he says about the businesses offering postbox services is simply a lie


oh - & his spelling sucks!


----------



## xabiaxica

I have watched all 3 now - yes, very depressing, as much for the narrator's voice as anything else

I don't think there were any real surprises

yes, there are many thousands of apartment blocks empty along the costas most of the year - but he did film this in winter & I bet a lot of them are owned by Spanish people as summer homes

as they were probably intended to be in the first place


I used to live on an urb similar to one he showed - adosados around a lovely garden & pool
for most of the year it's true - only 5 of the 30-odd pool facing houses were occupied by year- round residents, and a few of the attached apartments & street facing adosados - yes, maybe 10-15% in all

but weekends in good weather & all summer the place was heaving - & NONE were holiday lets - all owner-occupied


although there are now some buildings completed in the past year or so which are totally unoccupied


----------



## valencia-hombre

hi i suppose the truth is whether u wear rose tinted specs or not. i live in valencia city but before further down the coast. as the pound / euro exchange rate went from 1.60 euro = 1 pound to 1.15 = 1 pound the pensioners started returning in their droves as their uk pensions had dropped by 30%. in turned this affected bars and shops. british no longer buy proprty because the 150.000 euro flat is now 140.000 pounds, before 100.000 pounds. the days of the holidays to return with 1000s of cheapcigarettes is over, 7 years ago a packet of jps blue cost 99 cents in spanish tabacco shops now 3.50. i recognise many places in this video. on the first part of the video they show lidl supermarket orihuela costa and centrocommercial playa flamenca near torrevieja. 5 years ago it was buzzing, full to the brim of brits between june-end september, last year it was almost empty the summer in flux of visitors only lasted 3 weeks. a friend turkish who had a kebab takeaway (where on the video it says in the lower level things are tougher still )there told me his business was dying because his customers were mainly young brits who worked there in bars or restaurants but they dont come anymore as there is no work as there are no customers, its a big knock on effect. one bar was burned out in an arson attack by a jealous competitor both brits...west of alicante is a small spanish town called ibi, its main business was warehouses full of imported goodies to sell in chinese shops and along the coast, it is dying, the same goes for yecla, its main produce furniture if people dont buy homes there is no demand for furniture, valencia the province is in its 4th year of crisis as the spanish call it, the streets are full of people begging,`pushing trolleys around full of things they have scaveged from the big green basura (rubbish) containers on the street that they hope to get money for in cash converters or a scrap metal dealer. street crime in areas of rich pìckings is horrendous. handbag thefts, they stand behind u at cash dispensers and grab the cash asit exits the machine ot cut the straps of handbags as they pass by on motorbikes. take a walk through valencia city at 1am and see how many are living on the streets, in the lobbies of banks, the city is full off self employed parking attendants who wave u into a space in the hope of a 20 cent tip. in some streets as many as 50% of the shops have closed down. prices in supermarkets, cafes and bars have risen dramatically in recent years. i walk through valencia city everyday and see the masses of photocopied signs of flats for sale by desperate owners who cannot pay thier mortgage, with the words - translated- i sell for neccesity hence low price, urgent. a friend in benidorm (which is probably where costa sun/sea/sand holidays all began) tells me the same story most of the bars have closed, or converted to offices.

some months ago i watched a video on the bbc news website about a new urbanizacion (housing estate) on nthe outskirts of madrid, the whole estate was empty, only a few flats of the 100s and 100s had been sold.

i read the spanish newspapers most days so follow unemployment figures and things. about a year ago they stated inone bewspaper there were 250,000 properties for sale on the costa blanca, 55,000 newly built that hadnever been occupied. tourism and construction always went hand in hand in spain as somany tourists bought holiday homes. now its only germans and norweigans.

before anyone flames me, come to valencia, or visit torrevieja, orihuela costa and see it for yourself

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7584097.stm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2008/02/a_wellmanicured_spanish_ghost.html


----------



## mrypg9

Perspective needed.
Spain is not 'dying' because a few Brits with big ideas and not much capital or knowledge to back it up have failed to make it to their view of the 'dream' in Spain. Is the UK 'dying' because we have the largest deficit and public debt since WW2? 
These are periodic crises of capitalism, endemic to the system. Boom and bust. Spain, as I keep pointing out, is the world's nineth largest and Europe's fourth largest economy.
France has a huge public sector debt and deficit. Does anyone seriously think France is 'dying'?
Imo Spain is focussed on in this negative way by some British immigrants because it attracted far too many low-net-worth individuals who envisioned a cheap lifestyle in the sun and never considered the Spanish or indeed the UK economy could ever change and their pension £ might be devalued. 
As for 'illegal' builds -I'm sure there are many cases where sensible people who did all the 'right' things were cheated by unscrupulous agents/developers -many of them British. 
But far too many people were architects of their own misfortune and now cast around wildly for someone to blame for their eagerness to get the 'dream home' on the cheap. There is a thread on another site devoted entirely to whinging old twerps who have lost out over property deals banging on about how dreadful Spain is, how corrupt everyone is and so on ad infinitum. I was initially sympathetic and asked for more information as I thought I could be of help but when I read individual case histories I could only marvel at the ease with which some people parted with substantial sums of money. Nearly all had put complete trust in unknown developers, unknown lawyers -some fools even used lawyers recommended by the developers!! - and few had bothered to inform themselves about Spanish planning laws before committing to purchase. Some even knew full well that what they were buying was illegal but went ahead as the lure of a cheap property was simply irresistable.
I know there are many people who have happily bought off-plan.....but the 'cheapness' and convenience of these schemes is reflected in the risk. I would personally NEVER commit myself to parting with a six-figure sum for an edifice that existed merely on paper.
The story of the hapless bar owner on the video clip is typical. Just like the pair of pillocks featured on the 'Paradise Lost' programme who bought a bar in Benidorm with no business experience - they didn't even know how to change a beer keg. The bar had been on the market for three years prior to them purchasing it!!!!
If that video clip deters morons like that: good.
I've been accused of being 'smug' when describing my own research and calculations before coming here and for castigating these people. Maybe so.
But it's better imo to be smug around the pool of your villa with a glass of chilled fino that sitting gloomily in your empty Benidorm bar waiting for customers and dreading the next invoice from your suppliers. Besides, I've been called worse.
Those of us who have settled happily here are those who have fitted their lifestyles and ambitions to their bank balances.
It's quite simple, really.


----------



## nigele2

valencia-hombre don’t think anyone is going to flame you. You’d have to be incredibly naive not to realise the problems faced by Spain are real, are long term, and will eventually impact nearly everyone resident in Spain in one way or another. As always there will be parts of the country with a local economy doing, or appearing to be doing well. There will be an element of rose coloured specs but a bit of optimism is no bad thing providing it doesn’t encourage misplaced investment. 

With nearly half of all of the younger generation having no jobs and no hope I really cannot imagine why crime wouldn’t go through the roof. There will also be migration of the fittest and best qualified overseas which will make any stabilisation of the situation difficult. IMO there will never be a Spanish recovery as in a return to what went before, only the finding of a new level in the world. But in any environment there will be opportunities and people will make money. 

I often speak about the current economic problems with my Spanish family and about why, as I perceive it, the Spanish seem to have lost the will to fight. It was interesting to hear them recall former times.

My wife remembers when young living in Seville. She would often return home to find various bits of unknown furniture in the house. It belonged to neighbours. The bailiffs were coming again. A frequent event. When they had gone the furniture was returned. She cannot remember a time when her father didn’t do two jobs. When he was a guardia civil and taxi driver was the best time. Car ride to the city in a taxi and free entry to the cine (the latter a perk of the guardia civil). But she doesn't remember seeing much of him.

My MIL remembered the wonky table supported by small peseta coins. When there were enough half a chorizo and a jug of wine were enjoyed and the table wobbled once more. The neighbours came in and shared. She said proudly ‘never were the families of the unemployed left to starve’. Remembered as happy times but I get the feeling it was a few happy moments in desperate times.

It is clear to me that many Spaniards know how to survive hard times. Unfortunately today there seems to be less community and more youth expectation than ever before. 

While the family unit is still strong in Spain families have been forced to move apart when seeking work. My MIL’s own family is now spread between Madrid, Barcelona, Seville and Jaen. And individuals move frequently in search of work. Will there be the same community support that other generations appreciated during the dark franco years?

And will the young put up with a hard life when these days expectations are set sky high by the media? You’re comment about rising crime comes as no surprise to me. Even in my low crime Asturian village in the summer the local charity children’s centre was broken into for an old play station. No one could remember anyone in a small community stooping so low before. 

Sadly I only see things getting worse but if the people who see a glimmer of hope promote it I think that is a good thing. It at least counters the gloomy videos, and wallowing in the mierda I don't think is going to help.

That's the end of my saturday morning ramble. Adios


----------



## mrypg9

*Then you've got to take in to account the ones that are legal , with all paperwork,building licences, licence of 1st occupation, electricity, water, all legally connected, escrituras,paying Ibi, etc, etc; that now find themselves illegal as the regional government has rescinded the original building licences in a dispute with the local authorities !! Politics of the madhouse , whilst playing with the lives & health of the ordinary people.* 



Now...could this be because the local authorities contravened regional planning laws when gaily granting permissions to build?
We've been through all this before over 'illegal' builds and Tallulah nailed it down with her thorough and exhaustive description of ALL the myriad complex procedures one has to follow when contemplating building or buying in Spain.
And this is where the sense of entitlement some Brits seem to have when it comes to all things Spanish kicks in.
Pleading innocence or ignorance isn't a valid defence.
Try building on agricultural land or in contravention of County or local plans in the UK and see what happens.
Whilst serving on Council Planning Committees we dealt with several such instances and demolition orders were almost always the consequence.


----------



## Alcalaina

valencia-hombre said:


> hi i suppose the truth is whether u wear rose tinted specs or not. i live in valencia city but before further down the coast. as the pound / euro exchange rate went from 1.60 euro = 1 pound to 1.15 = 1 pound the pensioners started returning in their droves as their uk pensions had dropped by 30%. in turned this affected bars and shops. british no longer buy proprty because the 150.000 euro flat is now 140.000 pounds, before 100.000 pounds. the days of the holidays to return with 1000s of cheapcigarettes is over, 7 years ago a packet of jps blue cost 99 cents in spanish tabacco shops now 3.50. i recognise many places in this video. on the first part of the video they show lidl supermarket orihuela costa and centrocommercial playa flamenca near torrevieja. 5 years ago it was buzzing, full to the brim of brits between june-end september, last year it was almost empty the summer in flux of visitors only lasted 3 weeks. a friend turkish who had a kebab takeaway (where on the video it says in the lower level things are tougher still )there told me his business was dying because his customers were mainly young brits who worked there in bars or restaurants but they dont come anymore as there is no work as there are no customers, its a big knock on effect. one bar was burned out in an arson attack by a jealous competitor both brits...west of alicante is a small spanish town called ibi, its main business was warehouses full of imported goodies to sell in chinese shops and along the coast, it is dying, the same goes for yecla, its main produce furniture if people dont buy homes there is no demand for furniture, valencia the province is in its 4th year of crisis as the spanish call it, the streets are full of people begging,`pushing trolleys around full of things they have scaveged from the big green basura (rubbish) containers on the street that they hope to get money for in cash converters or a scrap metal dealer. street crime in areas of rich pìckings is horrendous. handbag thefts, they stand behind u at cash dispensers and grab the cash asit exits the machine ot cut the straps of handbags as they pass by on motorbikes. take a walk through valencia city at 1am and see how many are living on the streets, in the lobbies of banks, the city is full off self employed parking attendants who wave u into a space in the hope of a 20 cent tip. in some streets as many as 50% of the shops have closed down. prices in supermarkets, cafes and bars have risen dramatically in recent years. i walk through valencia city everyday and see the masses of photocopied signs of flats for sale by desperate owners who cannot pay thier mortgage, with the words - translated- i sell for neccesity hence low price, urgent. a friend in benidorm (which is probably where costa sun/sea/sand holidays all began) tells me the same story most of the bars have closed, or converted to offices.
> 
> some months ago i watched a video on the bbc news website about a new urbanizacion (housing estate) on nthe outskirts of madrid, the whole estate was empty, only a few flats of the 100s and 100s had been sold.
> 
> i read the spanish newspapers most days so follow unemployment figures and things. about a year ago they stated inone bewspaper there were 250,000 properties for sale on the costa blanca, 55,000 newly built that hadnever been occupied. tourism and construction always went hand in hand in spain as somany tourists bought holiday homes. now its only germans and norweigans.
> 
> before anyone flames me, come to valencia, or visit torrevieja, orihuela costa and see it for yourself
> 
> BBC NEWS | Business | From boom town to ghost town
> BBC - Mark Mardell's Euroblog: A well-manicured Spanish ghost town


As I was reading this - and although I am one of the rose-coloured spectacle wearers I do believe what you are saying - it put me in mind of a giant boil that has finally burst.

The greed of speculators, construction companies and politicians led to vastly invasive and often hideous overdevelopment of what were once beautiful places. People from Northern Europe were lured there in their millions by an image of "Sunny Spain", forming huge ghettos where nobody needed or even wanted to learn about Spanish language or culture. Life was just one big holiday, based around sun, sea and cheap booze.

Spain convinced itself that this was the way to strengthen its economy. Meanwhile the farmers and fishermen who used to live in these places were tucked away out of sight somewhere. Their children got jobs in bars or hotels and saw money being thrown around like water, people living a hedonistic lifestyle that they themselves could never afford - little wonder some of them turned to crime.

I know it must horrible for people whose dreams have turned into nightmares. But rather than desperately trying to flee back to the UK or wherever, or moaning to each other over their G&T about how bad everything is, could they not get together and try and put something back into the community they have inadvertently helped to destroy? 

And the Spanish government must learn from the experience too, and not resort to yet more destruction of its coasts in an attempt to lure back the extranjeros.


----------



## mrypg9

Beachcomber said:


> The heyday of residential tourism in Spain has been and gone never, in my opinion and most of theirs, to return.


Good. Now maybe Spain will start to address the problems that are retarding economic growth -reforming the rigid labour laws, encouraging the growth of a venture capital sector, developing hi-tech industries and so on - and drop the ill-fated policy of being the Florida of Europe.
If tourism is to be developed, hopefully the market will be developed on the basis of quality and not high-volume. Turkey and Tunisia are successfully rebranding themselves as quality destinations and shedding the cheap'n'cheerful label..
The Guggenheim Museum has brought a staggering amount into the Spanish economy, more than a whole season of lager-louts in some of the less salubrious resorts. 
Michelle Obama's visit to our area -the hotel she stayed in is a ten-minute drive from my house -may promote US big spenders either as tourists, residents or both. The brother of the King of Saudi Arabia is planning to build a luxury development centred around a six-star hotel o0n the edge of our village, construction to begin early next year. That will bring in loadsamoney.
Better to promote Spain in this way for many many reasons....aesthetic as well as economic.
We are in no way high-net-worth-individuals but short of Our Little Azor biting King Juan Carlos and us having to pay the damages, we cannot foresee a situation where we have to cut and run. Documentary evidence of planning for the worst case scenario should be compulsory for all would-be immigrants at the Spanish border....


----------



## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> As I was reading this - and although I am one of the rose-coloured spectacle wearers I do believe what you are saying - it put me in mind of a giant boil that has finally burst.
> 
> The greed of speculators, construction companies and politicians led to vastly invasive and often hideous overdevelopment of what were once beautiful places. People from Northern Europe were lured there in their millions by an image of "Sunny Spain", forming huge ghettos where nobody needed or even wanted to learn about Spanish language or culture. Life was just one big holiday, based around sun, sea and cheap booze.
> 
> Spain convinced itself that this was the way to strengthen its economy. Meanwhile the farmers and fishermen who used to live in these places were tucked away out of sight somewhere. Their children got jobs in bars or hotels and saw money being thrown around like water, people living a hedonistic lifestyle that they themselves could never afford - little wonder some of them turned to crime.
> 
> I know it must horrible for people whose dreams have turned into nightmares. But rather than desperately trying to flee back to the UK or wherever, or moaning to each other over their G&T about how bad everything is, could they not get together and try and put something back into the community they have inadvertently helped to destroy?
> 
> And the Spanish government must learn from the experience too, and not resort to yet more destruction of its coasts in an attempt to lure back the extranjeros.


Says it all, and said nicely, unlike my post!


----------



## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> Says it all, and said nicely, unlike my post!


I was about to add a similar comment under your post!


----------



## nigele2

Alcalaina said:


> I was about to add a similar comment under your post!


Will you two cut it out 

All good interesting and informative stuff but I am going to pull a yellow card on Mary.

Spain being the 9th biggest economy in the world is a Mr Bean quote and is the most meaningless abused statistic I have ever heard. I expect better from you Mary of all people


----------



## valencia-hombre

Alcalaina said:


> As I was reading this - and although I am one of the rose-coloured spectacle wearers I do believe what you are saying - it put me in mind of a giant boil that has finally burst.


i wonder how many follow the spanish press or las noticias on la tele or cnn+ in spanish. quite some months ago now, the minister of the economy made a public speech along similar lines telling of how foolish they had all been rubbing their hands in glee for 30 years all the money pooring in from sun sea sand and cement, work for its people. then *suddenly* it stopped and it was suddenly as in the bubble almost literally bursting. 35 years ago my gran started going to benidorm for holidays, cheap flights, adverts on the tele, we speak english, english breakfast, sunshine, cheap booze, warm and sunny. Apparently the situation is worse in andalucia, in some places unemployment is over 30% in valencia a mere 20%

I wonder if anyone on here visited the pirate bar in centro commercial playa flamenca, orihuela costa when steve and charlie where there ???. what a super place. that was the commercial centre in the video where they comment about all the empty shops and bars on the lower floor


----------



## valencia-hombre

mrypg9 said:


> and drop the ill-fated policy of being the Florida of Europe.


and a few more one day strikes, increase the retirement age, increase IVA to help the economy along


----------



## Beachcomber

dunmovin said:


> I don't understand enough Spanish to read the document you mentioned ...how many people and across what spectrum of lifestyles did you ask.


Oh, I do apologise. Given the air of authority with which you challenged the validity of my post I made the obviously erroneous assumption that you had some kind of specialist knowledge or at least a degree of fluency in the language. It was also very remiss of me not to make a note of the number of people, together with details of their socio-economic status and professional backgrounds, with whom I have discussed this matter at meetings, conferences and seminars (as well as over the dinner table) since the passing of the law nearly eight years ago.

Face to face, it is probably less than a thousand but there have been many more on internet fora both English and Spanish most notably, perhaps, the Notaries and Property Registrars forum. However, I have already been put on the naughty step by Miss like a recalcitrant schoolboy for daring to mention the existence of other internet fora so perhaps I should refrain from doing so in case I am actually given a dunces cap to wear and made to stand in the corner. Also, if you are going to quote me then please do so accurately:



dunmovin said:


> ... If you are to believed, then every house bought in the campo has been built illegally, every agent is a crook and aided and abbetted by lawyers.


What I actually said was:



Beachcomber said:


> ...Virtually every country property built in Andalucía since 2002 has been built illegally but they are still being handled by unscrupulous estate agents who will say anything to achieve a sale and money grabbing lawyers who will go along with them...


I will leave you to decide whether the second part of your misquote replacing 'unscrupulous' with 'crooked' and 'who will go along with' with 'aided and abbetted' (or should that be abetted?) is a more accurate reflection of the situation.



Pesky Wesky said:


> I wouldn't mind reading the part which deems properties built in Andalucia from 2002 onwards are largely illegal, but the document has 62 pages!! Any clues to tell me where it talks about this...


Are there 62 pages? I haven't counted them. It seemed like many more when I first read it! I am sure you will be aware that laws and edicts, especially Spanish ones, have to be studied in their entirety for them to make any sense especially when they refer backwards and forwards to other articles and paragraphs as this one frequently does and if you are looking for the words to the effect of 'building on rural land is now illegal' you will not find them. However, we are discussing rural properties so it would probably safe to assume that you can skip over the chapters relating to 'suelo urbanizable y urbano' and concentrate on the ones that deal with 'suelo no urbanizable'.

Perhaps the best help I can give is to suggest that you read it on Noticias Jurídicas where the text of the law has been transcribed into a more easily digestible html version with a list of contents of headings and chapters which link to the relevant paragraphs and links to other articles rather than just references:

Ley 7/2002, de 17 de diciembre, de Ordenación Urbansítica de Andaluca.




mrypg9 said:


> ... Nearly all had put complete trust in unknown developers, unknown lawyers -some fools even used lawyers recommended by the developers!! - and few had bothered to inform themselves about Spanish planning laws before committing to purchase...


Maybe so but are any Spanish developers or lawyers going to be known to a couple of naive pensioners from the United Kingdom or any other northern European country? If they employed the services of a lawyer they probably thought he would be a proper one not just a property conveyancer with a shiny suit and a law degree and why should they inform themselves about Spanish planning laws when they are paying thousands of euros to someone whom they, not unreasonably, assume is doing just that on their behalf and how would they be expected to inform themselves anyway? They obviously would not be able to read the relevant laws for themselves so of whom do they enquire, their lawyer, estate agent, promoter, the local mayor? We all now know that none of these people can be relied upon to tell the truth.


----------



## xabiaxica

Beachcomber said:


> Oh, I do apologise. Given the air of authority with which you challenged the validity of my post I made the obviously erroneous assumption that you had some kind of specialist knowledge or at least a degree of fluency in the language. It was also very remiss of me not to make a note of the number of people, together with details of their socio-economic status and professional backgrounds, with whom I have discussed this matter at meetings, conferences and seminars (as well as over the dinner table) since the passing of the law nearly eight years ago.
> 
> Face to face, it is probably less than a thousand but there have been many more on internet fora both English and Spanish most notably, perhaps, the Notaries and Property Registrars forum. However, I have already been put on the naughty step by Miss like a recalcitrant schoolboy for daring to mention the existence of other internet fora so perhaps I should refrain from doing so in case I am actually given a dunces cap to wear and made to stand in the corner. Also, if you are going to quote me then please do so accurately:
> 
> 
> What I actually said was:
> 
> 
> I will leave you to decide whether the second part of your misquote replacing 'unscrupulous' with 'crooked' and 'who will go along with' with 'aided and abbetted' (or should that be abetted?) is a more accurate reflection of the situation.
> 
> 
> Are there 62 pages? I haven't counted them. It seemed like many more when I first read it! I am sure you will be aware that laws and edicts, especially Spanish ones, have to be studied in their entirety for them to make any sense especially when they refer backwards and forwards to other articles and paragraphs as this one frequently does and if you are looking for the words to the effect of 'building on rural land is now illegal' you will not find them. However, we are discussing rural properties so it would probably safe to assume that you can skip over the chapters relating to 'suelo urbanizable y urbano' and concentrate on the ones that deal with 'suelo no urbanizable'.
> 
> Perhaps the best help I can give is to suggest that you read it on Noticias Jurídicas where the text of the law has been transcribed into a more easily digestible html version with a list of contents of headings and chapters which link to the relevant paragraphs and links to other articles rather than just references:
> 
> Ley 7/2002, de 17 de diciembre, de Ordenación Urbansítica de Andaluca.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe so but are any Spanish developers or lawyers going to be known to a couple of naive pensioners from the United Kingdom or any other northern European country? If they employed the services of a lawyer they probably thought he would be a proper one not just a property conveyancer with a shiny suit and a law degree and why should they inform themselves about Spanish planning laws when they are paying thousands of euros to someone whom they, not unreasonably, assume is doing just that on their behalf and how would they be expected to inform themselves anyway? They obviously would not be able to read the relevant laws for themselves so of whom do they enquire, their lawyer, estate agent, promoter, the local mayor? We all now know that none of these people can be relied upon to tell the truth.


a lot of us are interested in this - & you've obviously put a lot of time into research into the problem

could you just quote the relevant bit from the link you gave - with a rough translation into English - bearing in mind the language of the forum is English, so it matters not whether the posters can speak Spanish


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Beachcomber said:


> Oh, I do apologise. Given the air of authority with which you challenged the validity of my post I made the obviously erroneous assumption that you had some kind of specialist knowledge or at least a degree of fluency in the language. It was also very remiss of me not to make a note of the number of people, together with details of their socio-economic status and professional backgrounds, with whom I have discussed this matter at meetings, conferences and seminars (as well as over the dinner table) since the passing of the law nearly eight years ago.
> 
> Face to face, it is probably less than a thousand but there have been many more on internet fora both English and Spanish most notably, perhaps, the Notaries and Property Registrars forum. However, I have already been put on the naughty step by Miss like a recalcitrant schoolboy for daring to mention the existence of other internet fora so perhaps I should refrain from doing so in case I am actually given a dunces cap to wear and made to stand in the corner. Also, if you are going to quote me then please do so accurately:
> 
> 
> What I actually said was:
> 
> 
> I will leave you to decide whether the second part of your misquote replacing 'unscrupulous' with 'crooked' and 'who will go along with' with 'aided and abbetted' (or should that be abetted?) is a more accurate reflection of the situation.
> 
> 
> Are there 62 pages? I haven't counted them. It seemed like many more when I first read it! I am sure you will be aware that laws and edicts, especially Spanish ones, have to be studied in their entirety for them to make any sense especially when they refer backwards and forwards to other articles and paragraphs as this one frequently does and if you are looking for the words to the effect of 'building on rural land is now illegal' you will not find them. However, we are discussing rural properties so it would probably safe to assume that you can skip over the chapters relating to 'suelo urbanizable y urbano' and concentrate on the ones that deal with 'suelo no urbanizable'.
> 
> Perhaps the best help I can give is to suggest that you read it on Noticias Jurídicas where the text of the law has been transcribed into a more easily digestible html version with a list of contents of headings and chapters which link to the relevant paragraphs and links to other articles rather than just references:
> 
> Ley 7/2002, de 17 de diciembre, de Ordenación Urbansítica de Andaluca.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe so but are any Spanish developers or lawyers going to be known to a couple of naive pensioners from the United Kingdom or any other northern European country? If they employed the services of a lawyer they probably thought he would be a proper one not just a property conveyancer with a shiny suit and a law degree and why should they inform themselves about Spanish planning laws when they are paying thousands of euros to someone whom they, not unreasonably, assume is doing just that on their behalf and how would they be expected to inform themselves anyway? They obviously would not be able to read the relevant laws for themselves so of whom do they enquire, their lawyer, estate agent, promoter, the local mayor? We all now know that none of these people can be relied upon to tell the truth.


Thanks for the link - the haughtiness can be left at home though.

Some people can function fully in Spanish, others not

Some people know a lot about Spain, others do not.

The idea is that people on the forum exchange info and opinions. It's a good idea!

BTW I didn't _*count*_ the pages of the document, it told me at the top of the pdf...


----------



## mrypg9

Maybe so but are any Spanish developers or lawyers going to be known to a couple of naive pensioners from the United Kingdom or any other northern European country? If they employed the services of a lawyer they probably thought he would be a proper one not just a property conveyancer with a shiny suit and a law degree and *why should they inform themselves about Spanish planning laws when they are paying thousands of euros to someone whom they, not unreasonably, assume is doing just that on their behalf and how would they be expected to inform themselves anyway? They obviously would not be *able to read the relevant laws for themselves so of whom do they enquire, their lawyer, estate agent, promoter, the local mayor? We all now know that none of these people can be relied upon to tell the truth. 

BEACHCOMBER

Why?? Because it's their money they are parting with. And if as you suggest it's generally known that everyone in Spain is corrupt...what the hell were they thinking of, buying in such a shady business environment? Hadn't they read The Daily Mail???/ I have bought property in other countries without problems and sold it....and I researched everything that needed to be taken into account before parting with one red cent. My business and professional experience does not lie within the realm of real estate but I hold to the old adage 'Caveat Emptor'..
I value my hard-earned cash too much to let it go that easily.
If in doubt, do nowt and buy in Bognor.. 
Why do you think hundreds of thousands of people have bought successfully in Spain? Maybe because, although pensioners, they were not 'naive'. Maybe they were diligent and spent some time living here to see the facts on the ground. Not everyone loses their marbles when they pass sixty.
You spoil any case you make by hyperbole. I can't take anyone seriously who makes such sweeping generalisations as you.
Yes, we all know some Mayors, officials, agents, etc. etc. are corrupt. And we know that some aren't. Maybe you have had bad experiences caused by some oversight of your own? After all, you have obviously been _very_ busy and it's hard sometimes to keep all your balls in the air, so to speak....:juggle:
Some posters exaggerate.
Some try to be objective.


----------



## mrypg9

Beachcomber 
Oh, I do apologise. Given the air of authority with which you challenged the validity of my post I made the obviously erroneous assumption that you had some kind of specialist knowledge or at least a degree of fluency in the language. It was also very remiss of me not to make a note of the number of people, together with details of their socio-economic status and professional backgrounds, with whom I have discussed this matter at meetings, conferences and seminars (as well as over the dinner table) since the passing of the law nearly eight years ago.

Face to face, it is probably less than a thousand but there have been many more on internet fora both English and Spanish most notably, perhaps, the Notaries and Property Registrars forum. However, I have already been put on the naughty step by Miss like a recalcitrant schoolboy for daring to mention the existence of other internet fora so perhaps I should refrain from doing so in case I am actually given a dunces cap to wear and made to stand in the corner. Also, if you are going to quote me then please do so accurately.


----------



## mrypg9

nigele2 said:


> Will you two cut it out
> 
> All good interesting and informative stuff but I am going to pull a yellow card on Mary.
> 
> Spain being the 9th biggest economy in the world is a Mr Bean quote and is the most meaningless abused statistic I have ever heard. I expect better from you Mary of all people


It may be a Mr Bean quote Nigel -I didn't know he'sd proclaimed that -but he got it from data from a variety of sources. I was surprised to read it myself. Google and you'll see them.
Where were you when PW and I were needing you for background info last week?


----------



## Beachcomber

mrypg9 said:


> ... Maybe you have had bad experiences caused by some oversight of your own?


No, I have successfully purchased six properties in Spain and sold four of them with no involvement of any third person except the obligatory notary and property registrar. As for hyperbole, I'm not sure you know the meaning of the word otherwise you wouldn't accuse me of it and haughtiness... the words pot, kettle and black come to mind.


----------



## puertobanus

Not being funny but there are parts of the UK like that, rows of empty shops thanks to Gordon Brown continously increasing business rates to finance his handouts. 

Instead of lowering the rates local councils build bigger shopping centres (pushing up rents even further) in an effort to "stimulate" growth. If you look in most UK towns small businesses are disappearing fast, shops aswell as pubs, the only survivors are the big chains.

I closed my business in Luton because the business rates were on a par with London unlike the income of it's inhabitants. Commercial and residential rents here are now rediculously expensive, I wouldn't mind but Luton is hardly a paradise, it's a run down hell hole full of unhappy locals who all want to leave.

Dunstable, it's neighbouring town has turned into a ghost town with literally every other shop closed, I suspect the reason is because people cannot afford to pay the high rents and business rates.

What I'm trying to say is that although the fines in Spain are somewhat unfair it's still cheaper to run a business in Spain than the UK. If you chose your location carefully and don't try and do what everybody else does (start a bar) then there's no reason why you can't find your niche market.

People are all too quick to blame their failings on the recession, I hear the same old excuses all the time. If you are a visionary you will flourish anywhere, if not, stay in the UK and sign on the dole like everybody else.


----------



## Alcalaina

puertobanus said:


> Not being funny but there are parts of the UK like that, rows of empty shops thanks to Gordon Brown continously increasing business rates to finance his handouts.
> 
> Instead of lowering the rates local councils build bigger shopping centres (pushing up rents even further) in an effort to "stimulate" growth. If you look in most UK towns small businesses are disappearing fast, shops aswell as pubs, the only survivors are the big chains.
> 
> I closed my business in Luton because the business rates were on a par with London unlike the income of it's inhabitants. Commercial and residential rents here are now rediculously expensive, I wouldn't mind but Luton is hardly a paradise, it's a run down hell hole full of unhappy locals who all want to leave.
> 
> Dunstable, it's neighbouring town has turned into a ghost town with literally every other shop closed, I suspect the reason is because people cannot afford to pay the high rents and business rates.
> 
> What I'm trying to say is that although the fines in Spain are somewhat unfair it's still cheaper to run a business in Spain than the UK. If you chose your location carefully and don't try and do what everybody else does (start a bar) then there's no reason why you can't find your niche market.
> 
> People are all too quick to blame their failings on the recession, I hear the same old excuses all the time. If you are a visionary you will flourish anywhere, if not, stay in the UK and sign on the dole like everybody else.


I pretty well agree with you, apart from the first sentence. Business rates are set by local authorities, not the ex Prime Minister ... and this happens just as much under Tory run councils as Labour or Lib Dem ones.

It breaks my heart to see the inexorable march of mobile phone shops and Starbucks taking over streets that used to have the buzz of diversity. Hence I have retreated to a very old-fashioned village in the south of Spain where I estimate I have at least 20 years before they catch up with me!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

puertobanus said:


> Not being funny but there are parts of the UK like that, rows of empty shops thanks to Gordon Brown continously increasing business rates to finance his handouts.
> 
> Instead of lowering the rates local councils build bigger shopping centres (pushing up rents even further) in an effort to "stimulate" growth. If you look in most UK towns small businesses are disappearing fast, shops aswell as pubs, the only survivors are the big chains.
> 
> I closed my business in Luton because the business rates were on a par with London unlike the income of it's inhabitants. Commercial and residential rents here are now rediculously expensive, I wouldn't mind but Luton is hardly a paradise, it's a run down hell hole full of unhappy locals who all want to leave.
> 
> Dunstable, it's neighbouring town has turned into a ghost town with literally every other shop closed, I suspect the reason is because people cannot afford to pay the high rents and business rates.
> 
> What I'm trying to say is that although the fines in Spain are somewhat unfair it's still cheaper to run a business in Spain than the UK. If you chose your location carefully and don't try and do what everybody else does (start a bar) then there's no reason why you can't find your niche market.
> 
> People are all too quick to blame their failings on the recession, I hear the same old excuses all the time. If you are a visionary you will flourish anywhere, if not, stay in the UK and sign on the dole like everybody else.


Hi!
I think many that have posted on this thread would agree with you - I certainly would with much of what you have said. Yes, there are places that are pretty much like that in the UK, and small business have got it tough there too.
I don't know about if it's cheaper to run a business here. It might well be, but the paper work you have to do is far more complicated and drawn out, so one benefit might be cancelled out by another.

This is very true...
_If you chose your location carefully and don't try and do what everybody else does (start a bar) then there's no reason why you can't find your niche market.
_This I don't agree with; the law is the law and your job is to find out how the law affects your business.
_What I'm trying to say is that although the fines in Spain are somewhat unfair_
And this sentence has quite a few followers on here I think! I don't think you have to be a "visionary" necessarily, but you do have to think a bit about what you're going to do and realise that what ever you're going to be doing it's going to be in another country, with different rules and regulations.
_People are all too quick to blame their failings on the recession, I hear the same old excuses all the time. If you are a visionary you will flourish anywhere, if not, stay in the UK and sign on the dole like everybody else_


----------



## puertobanus

Oh and one more thing, how comes I can't find any properties to rent in Marbella, I've looked on the property websites and there are practically none apart from unaffordable "golden mile" castles and a couple of studio flats.


----------



## jojo

puertobanus said:


> Not being funny but there are parts of the UK like that, rows of empty shops thanks to Gordon Brown continously increasing business rates to finance his handouts.
> 
> Instead of lowering the rates local councils build bigger shopping centres (pushing up rents even further) in an effort to "stimulate" growth. If you look in most UK towns small businesses are disappearing fast, shops aswell as pubs, the only survivors are the big chains.
> 
> I closed my business in Luton because the business rates were on a par with London unlike the income of it's inhabitants. Commercial and residential rents here are now rediculously expensive, I wouldn't mind but Luton is hardly a paradise, it's a run down hell hole full of unhappy locals who all want to leave.
> 
> Dunstable, it's neighbouring town has turned into a ghost town with literally every other shop closed, I suspect the reason is because people cannot afford to pay the high rents and business rates.
> 
> What I'm trying to say is that although the fines in Spain are somewhat unfair it's still cheaper to run a business in Spain than the UK. If you chose your location carefully and don't try and do what everybody else does (start a bar) then there's no reason why you can't find your niche market.
> 
> People are all too quick to blame their failings on the recession, I hear the same old excuses all the time. If you are a visionary you will flourish anywhere, if not, stay in the UK and sign on the dole like everybody else.


My husband has a business in the UK and his total overheads in the UK about 20% less than a friend of his who has the same type of business here in Spain. They both deal in electrical hifi, multi media and installations. Initially the idea was that my husband would join the two businesses together and put them under the UK "branch", but that idea was quashed with the recent recession (same old excuse, but genuinely thought thru by someone who knows what he's talking about). His friend in Spain is now almost certainly giving up his overpriced premises, taxes etc and going back to the UK, cos altho there is work in Spain, they do not need the overpriced premises in Spain, so they may amalgamate a head office in the UK and deal with Spain and the UK from there. 

Are either my husband or his friend visionaries??? well they both were once, but visions do not mean you'll flourish or be successful anywhere. You need to be far more shrewd than that!

As for signing on in the UK, well its a safety net that you dont get unconditionally in Spain - if you havent paid into the spanish system you wont get any out and if you have theres a time limit


Jo xxx


----------



## mrypg9

Beachcomber said:


> No, I have successfully purchased six properties in Spain and sold four of them with no involvement of any third person except the obligatory notary and property registrar. As for hyperbole, I'm not sure you know the meaning of the word otherwise you wouldn't accuse me of it and haughtiness... the words pot, kettle and black come to mind.



Well aren't we a clever one... You managed to evade all those crooked Spanish lawyers for two of them...well done. Brownie points all round.
Hyperbole = exaggeration. You exaggerate. Rewind. Read your posts. 
Haughtiness...no, it wasn't me who accused you of it. But if being up your own backside can be construed in that sense .....I could share the sentiment of the poster who did use that term.
Now...I'm done with you.


----------



## jojo

Beachcomber said:


> No, I have successfully purchased six properties in Spain and sold four of them with no involvement of any third person except the obligatory notary and property registrar. As for hyperbole, I'm not sure you know the meaning of the word otherwise you wouldn't accuse me of it and haughtiness... the words pot, kettle and black come to mind.


Please try not to use unecessary and unpleasant aggression on the forum. It doesnt make for good reading

Jo


----------



## nigele2

mrypg9 said:


> It may be a Mr Bean quote Nigel -I didn't know he'sd proclaimed that -but he got it from data from a variety of sources. I was surprised to read it myself. Google and you'll see them.
> Where were you when PW and I were needing you for background info last week?


Mary I am not questioning that Spain has the ninth largest economy in the world. I'm questioning the relevance,

Guernsey has the 155th sized economy in the world - I don't think that they look up to Spain 

The problem with Spain is that it is sliding down the competitive charts. 

On The Global Competitiveness Index Analyzer 2010-2011 they have a very complex (you can see all the details) model to assess a country's competitiveness.

Spain currently sits 42nd out of 153 countries. When Zapatero came to power Spain was 23rd. Spain now sits below Cyprus and only 4 places above Portugal.

It is the destructive downward spiral that is the problem. Unemployment is still rising and the interest on Spanish bonds is going up. Everyone seems to agree tourism/construction needs a total rethink but that will take time. And Zappy hasn't a clue what to do (or possibly he does but is not allowed to do it ). And waiting in the wings is Rajoy. We're doooomed Captain Mannering, doomed.

On where was I sadly I had a few family obligations but I did get to read every now and again and as always despite the odd frictions the debate was first class. There's something about this place. It's a drug


----------



## mrypg9

puertobanus said:


> Oh and one more thing, how comes I can't find any properties to rent in Marbella, I've looked on the property websites and there are practically none apart from unaffordable "golden mile" castles and a couple of studio flats.


Where have you been looking? Are you looking for an apartment or a house? There seem to be plenty of all types of property for sale or rent in the area.
On your other post.....non-domestic rates did used to be collected and allocated by central government, if I remember rightly. But nothing that Gordon Brown's Government did to business equalled the damage inflicted by the Thatcher Government when there were more business failures than at any other time.
As for people signing on the dole....I'm equally against benefit cheats and scroungers and tax evaders. But if there are no jobs in your area and you can't sell or can't afford to sell your house and move to an area where there are employment opportunities,, what can you do but sign on?
I actually think that a mistake was made when the former Communist states joined the EU in 2004. We should not have allowed unrestricted immigration from these countries. Only the UK and ROI allowed it.
Why? Because employers wanted it, just as they are now urging the Coalition to lift the recently announced immigration cap. 
British jobs should be for British workers.
Spanish jobs for Spanish workers is the logical corollary to that.


----------



## mrypg9

nigele2 said:


> Mary I am not questioning that Spain has the ninth largest economy in the world. I'm questioning the relevance,
> 
> Guernsey has the 155th sized economy in the world - I don't think that they look up to Spain
> 
> The problem with Spain is that it is sliding down the competitive charts.
> 
> On The Global Competitiveness Index Analyzer 2010-2011 they have a very complex (you can see all the details) model to assess a country's competitiveness.
> 
> Spain currently sits 42nd out of 153 countries. When Zapatero came to power Spain was 23rd. Spain now sits below Cyprus and only 4 places above Portugal.
> 
> It is the destructive downward spiral that is the problem. Unemployment is still rising and the interest on Spanish bonds is going up. Everyone seems to agree tourism/construction needs a total rethink but that will take time. And Zappy hasn't a clue what to do (or possibly he does but is not allowed to do it ). And waiting in the wings is Rajoy. We're doooomed Captain Mannering, doomed.
> 
> On where was I sadly I had a few family obligations but I did get to read every now and again and as always despite the odd frictions the debate was first class. There's something about this place. It's a drug



Well, I missed you. I was offline myself for a week as I changed from Telefonica to Telitec, saving 30 euros a month by so doing.

Yes, I see the point you are making. Gloomy indeed...


----------



## mrypg9

jojo said:


> Please try not to use unecessary and unpleasant aggression on the forum. It doesnt make for good reading
> 
> Jo


Mea culpa too....
I shall ignore that poster in future.


----------



## gus-lopez

" Not being funny but there are parts of the UK like that, rows of empty shops thanks to Gordon Brown continously increasing business rates to finance his handouts. "

Also making full rates payable on empty properties, so leading to owners demolishing empty industrial units & pubs to stop the outflow of cash with no income !


----------



## Pesky Wesky

nigele2 said:


> Mary I am not questioning that Spain has the ninth largest economy in the world. I'm questioning the relevance,
> 
> Guernsey has the 155th sized economy in the world - I don't think that they look up to Spain
> 
> The problem with Spain is that it is sliding down the competitive charts.
> 
> On The Global Competitiveness Index Analyzer 2010-2011 they have a very complex (you can see all the details) model to assess a country's competitiveness.
> 
> Spain currently sits 42nd out of 153 countries. When Zapatero came to power Spain was 23rd. Spain now sits below Cyprus and only 4 places above Portugal.
> 
> It is the destructive downward spiral that is the problem. Unemployment is still rising and the interest on Spanish bonds is going up. Everyone seems to agree tourism/construction needs a total rethink but that will take time. And Zappy hasn't a clue what to do (or possibly he does but is not allowed to do it ). And waiting in the wings is Rajoy. We're doooomed Captain Mannering, doomed.
> 
> On where was I sadly I had a few family obligations but I did get to read every now and again and as always despite the odd frictions the debate was first class. There's something about this place. It's a drug


I'm glad you weren't questioning that Spain has the 9th largest economy in the world - I was thinking that nigele2 had lost his _canicas_ for a moment! It's true that you posted the link for The Global Competitiveness Index Analyzer 2010-2011 on the strike thread, but you said it was complex and I chickened out of looking at it, sorry

And I think you're right
*Everyone seems to agree tourism/construction needs a total rethink but that will take time. And Zappy hasn't a clue what to do (or possibly he does but is not allowed to do it ). And waiting in the wings is Rajoy. We're doooomed Captain Mannering, doomed.*


Well, not completely doomed. There's life in the girl yet.
Perhaps we should get Citizen Smith in??


----------



## nigele2

Pesky Wesky said:


> Captain Mannering, doomed.[/I][/B]
> 
> Well, not completely doomed. There's life in the girl yet.
> Perhaps we should get Citizen Smith in??


I was thinking of digging up Che but if Citizen Smith is about he can do no harm 

Mary 30 Es less. I want some of that. I'll have a lookie


----------



## mrypg9

*China last night offered to bail out debt-ridden Greece – and pledged to support the eurozone countries during the global crisis. 
Premier Wen Jiabao made the offer at the start of a two-day visit to the crisis-hit country. 

‘China is holding Greek bonds and will keep buying bonds that Greece issues,’ said Wen.* 


The West declines but fear not, a new Dawn rises in the East...;


----------



## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> *China last night offered to bail out debt-ridden Greece – and pledged to support the eurozone countries during the global crisis.
> Premier Wen Jiabao made the offer at the start of a two-day visit to the crisis-hit country.
> 
> ‘China is holding Greek bonds and will keep buying bonds that Greece issues,’ said Wen.*
> 
> 
> The West declines but fear not, a new Dawn rises in the East...;


On a purely selfish note, how is that going to affect the pound/euro?????? 

Jo xxx


----------



## mrypg9

jojo said:


> On a purely selfish note, how is that going to affect the pound/euro??????
> 
> Jo xxx


Sad reflection on me.....but my first thought nowadays whenever I read about the British or Eurozone economy is 'How will this affect me?'
My guess is that the £/euro exchange rate will fluctuate over the next two or three years at least. Even Ken Clarke now admits the possibility of a double-dip recession in the UK .......which rather begs the question as to why the Coalition is hell-bent on policies that seem certain to bring this about????
The lesson of Ireland should stand as a stark warning.
Cut too deep aqnd the inevitable consequence will be recession. This will be the fate of Greece unless China really does intervene as promised. And even then, low bond yields don't automatically lead to economic recovery.
I'd love to see a strong £ and sky-high interest rates.
The UK economy needs them like a hole in the head, though...


----------



## nigele2

mrypg9 said:


> I'd love to see a strong £ and sky-high interest rates.
> The UK economy needs them like a hole in the head, though...


You leave my pound and my interest rates right where they are thank you very much 

The Chinese approach I find interesting. They demonstrate a very long term strategy in many of their global activities. I must say I'm very impressed by many of China's policies (that doesn't mean I think we should adopt them or that I like all of them ). They have invested around the world in resources (like the buying of mountains in Peru). They have showed constraint over North Korea. They have tried to address the world's biggest problem - population numbers. Yes there are lots of things you can point to like tibet but I'm pleasantly surprised.

As for how will helping Greece with Chinese support effect the £/Euro? In itself I imagine not noticeaby unless it is seen as stopping a default by Greece. If there is an effect it will be positive to the Euro so bad news Jo. 

Just for the numbers Greece's economy is 27/28th in size in the world and there competitiveness rating is 83rd squeezed between El Salvador and Trinidad & Tabago. If I was Chinese I'd have gone for the latter


----------



## Pesky Wesky

nigele2 said:


> You leave my pound and my interest rates right where they are thank you very much
> 
> The Chinese approach I find interesting. They demonstrate a very long term strategy in many of their global activities.
> 
> Long term isn't a term you hear politicians in Europe using much, is it??
> 
> If there is an effect it will be positive to the Euro so bad news Jo.
> 
> But good news for me, right????


 ***


----------



## puertobanus

mrypg9 said:


> Sad reflection on me.....but my first thought nowadays whenever I read about the British or Eurozone economy is 'How will this affect me?'
> My guess is that the £/euro exchange rate will fluctuate over the next two or three years at least. Even Ken Clarke now admits the possibility of a double-dip recession in the UK .......which rather begs the question as to why the Coalition is hell-bent on policies that seem certain to bring this about????
> The lesson of Ireland should stand as a stark warning.
> Cut too deep aqnd the inevitable consequence will be recession. This will be the fate of Greece unless China really does intervene as promised. And even then, low bond yields don't automatically lead to economic recovery.
> I'd love to see a strong £ and sky-high interest rates.
> The UK economy needs them like a hole in the head, though...


I'm afraid you are wrong mate, I trade the stock market and since the coalition came in and introduced the cuts our economy has been inproving, the double dip recession fears was labour orientated media scaremongering as the US markets were doing very badly.

Funnily enough a few days ago reports came in of a turnaround in the US economy, better figures than expected has boosted traders and banks to reinvest again in US stocks.


----------



## mrypg9

puertobanus said:


> I'm afraid you are wrong mate, I trade the stock market and since the coalition came in and introduced the cuts our economy has been inproving, the double dip recession fears was labour orientated media scaremongering as the US markets were doing very badly.
> 
> Funnily enough a few days ago reports came in of a turnaround in the US economy, better figures than expected has boosted traders and banks to reinvest again in US stocks.



We all trade the stock market, some of us have been doing so for many years either as individuals or through our brokers and fund managers. And I don't think you can describe an ex-Tory Chancellor, Ken Clarke, who voiced his fears of a double-dip recession, as a tool of the 'labour-orientated' media. I don't think the spokesperson for the Small Business Federation who expressed similar concerns, could be described as a 'labour-orientated media' tool, do you?
Just out of interest, could you name these labour-orientated media sources?? Would you include the Financial Times and The Economist amongst them? Both have expressed reservations, however mildly, about the wisdom of cutting too deeply and too rapidly.
The Coalition has yet to announce its programme of cuts -October 29th is C Day -so any improvement shown in the economy, as for example in the second quarter figures, has nothing to do with anything the Coalition has done or may yet do. They didn't form their Government until mid-May, remember.
As for the U.S. economy...yes, there has been an improvement, but a very minor one. Unemployment figures are still high and there is, rightly or wrongly, a general lack of confidence that Obama's administration will be able to kick-start an ailing economy.
So I'm afraid you are wrong, mate.


----------



## dunmovin

nigele2 said:


> You leave my pound and my interest rates right where they are thank you very much
> 
> *The Chinese approach I find interesting. * They demonstrate a very long term strategy in many of their global activities. I must say I'm very impressed by many of China's policies (that doesn't mean I think we should adopt them or that I like all of them ). They have invested around the world in resources (like the buying of mountains in Peru). They have showed constraint over North Korea. They have tried to address the world's biggest problem - population numbers. Yes there are lots of things you can point to like tibet but I'm pleasantly surprised.
> 
> As for how will helping Greece with Chinese support effect the £/Euro? In itself I imagine not noticeaby unless it is seen as stopping a default by Greece. If there is an effect it will be positive to the Euro so bad news Jo.
> 
> Just for the numbers Greece's economy is 27/28th in size in the world and there competitiveness rating is 83rd squeezed between El Salvador and Trinidad & Tabago. If I was Chinese I'd have gone for the latter


Yes...and in a few years they'll want Greece to re-unite with the Motherland

Joking aside, China is a huge economic force, which has spent years recovering from the damage Mao done. Deng opened the doors to western economic policy, but left the one party system in place, but now the country is slowly edging towards the end of comunism, although very, very slowly.


----------



## mrypg9

dunmovin said:


> Yes...and in a few years they'll want Greece to re-unite with the Motherland
> 
> Joking aside, China is a huge economic force, which has spent years recovering from the damage Mao done. Deng opened the doors to western economic policy, but left the one party system in place, but now the country is slowly edging towards the end of comunism, although very, very slowly.


It's hard to see what is left of Communism in the economic sense. This may well be the future form of Chinese capitalism....state-directed private enterprise with authoritarianism.
We forget that capitalism has many forms, all distinct according to the host country's culture. Russia with its Mafia capitalism is as different from the Chinese variety as that is different from the Japanese model as that differs from the Western European model.....
A very good book on that topic is 'Trust' by Francis Fukuyama. You can probably get it for 1p from Amazon online.


----------



## Alcalaina

nigele2 said:


> The Chinese approach I find interesting. They demonstrate a very long term strategy in many of their global activities. I must say I'm very impressed by many of China's policies (that doesn't mean I think we should adopt them or that I like all of them ). They have invested around the world in resources (like the buying of mountains in Peru). They have showed constraint over North Korea. They have tried to address the world's biggest problem - population numbers. Yes there are lots of things you can point to like tibet but I'm pleasantly surprised.


China is buying up Spanish debts too. ZP went to Beijing a few weeks ago to do a bit of sucking up. Spain is now the fourth most popular country in Europe for Chinese tourists. I am trying to think of a pun involving Juan and Yuan, but inspiration is failing me at the moment. 

Interestingly, the Wall Street Journal seems to think ZP is on the right track:
China Charm Offensive Working for Spain’s Zapatero - The Source - WSJ


----------



## jojo

Alcalaina said:


> China is buying up Spanish debts too. ZP went to Beijing a few weeks ago to do a bit of sucking up. Spain is now the fourth most popular country in Europe for Chinese tourists. I am trying to think of a pun involving Juan and Yuan, but inspiration is failing me at the moment.
> 
> Interestingly, the Wall Street Journal seems to think ZP is on the right track:
> China Charm Offensive Working for Spain’s Zapatero - The Source - WSJ



Isnt this all to do with the Chinese trying to upset the americans and keeping their "yen" away from the USDollar???

Jo xxx


----------



## Alcalaina

jojo said:


> Isnt this all to do with the Chinese trying to upset the americans and keeping their "yen" away from the USDollar???
> 
> Jo xxx


Is it? I'm sure someone will enlighten us!

Yen is Japanese btw, China have Yuan. I still can't think of a good pun.


----------



## jojo

Alcalaina said:


> Is it? I'm sure someone will enlighten us!
> 
> Yen is Japanese btw, China have Yuan. I still can't think of a good pun.


Its Sunday and my brain works even slower on Sundays. But a financial chap I know has been banging on about the financial issues and oneupmanship between US and China

Jo xxx


----------



## Guest

jojo said:


> Its Sunday and my brain works even slower on Sundays. But a financial chap I know has been banging on about the financial issues and oneupmanship between US and China
> 
> Jo xxx


I'm a bit more nervous about the situtation in my "motherland" than the situation here...


----------



## nigele2

Alcalaina said:


> Interestingly, the Wall Street Journal seems to think ZP is on the right track:
> China Charm Offensive Working for Spain’s Zapatero - The Source - WSJ


"This would likely force Mr. Zapatero to call advance elections and spook investors."

an election he will lose.

Not sure how you read that as being on the right track?


----------



## Alcalaina

nigele2 said:


> "This would likely force Mr. Zapatero to call advance elections and spook investors."
> 
> an election he will lose.
> 
> Not sure how you read that as being on the right track?


No, I meant they think he is right to suck up to the Chinese!

"Spanish Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero’s transformation from a champion of social reforms, like gay marriage and workplace equality, into a champion for the Spanish economy was again on display this week. 
On a trip to China, he thanked authorities for their willingness to finance one of Europe’s biggest budget deficits, even during depths of the sovereign debt crisis."

I feel deeply let down by ZP. Two years ago I admired him enormously as an honest politician with progressive policies, but he's been more and more spineless lately. The last straw was when he offered his support to the odious Silvio Berlusconi over the Roma expulsions.

However unless PSOE can find a good strong new leader PDQ I fear the even more ghastly spectre of the Partido Podrido is lurking in the wings ready to capitalise (excuse the pun) on his weakness. I'm rather hoping Mrypg9 will offer her services ...


----------



## nigele2

Alcalaina said:


> I'm rather hoping Mrypg9 will offer her services ...


With you all the way with that one  Mary Mary Mary Mary Mary :clap2:


----------



## Pesky Wesky

nigele2 said:


> With you all the way with that one  Mary Mary Mary Mary Mary :clap2:


 Unfortunately, Mary's gone to the dogs, if you know what I mean...


----------



## mrypg9

I'm back....from the dogs and the campo, rather cold.
I'm the last person to stand for any Party....I'm too fond of my own opinions (in case you hadn't noticed.....
The hard truth is as I've said before that any politician rarely gets the chance to do whats/he would like to do. 
You have to choose the least unpleasant of the options that are available to you.
As soon as I realised that, even in my comparatively insignificant political roles, I lost a kind of excitement...that's not the word I mean but can't think of the right one.
I'm still trying to get over watching Ann Widdecombe on 'Strictly...'


----------



## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> I'm back....from the dogs and the campo, rather cold.
> I'm the last person to stand for any Party....I'm too fond of my own opinions (in case you hadn't noticed.....
> The hard truth is as I've said before that any politician rarely gets the chance to do whats/he would like to do.
> You have to choose the least unpleasant of the options that are available to you.
> As soon as I realised that, even in my comparatively insignificant political roles, I lost a kind of excitement...that's not the word I mean but can't think of the right one.
> I'm still trying to get over watching Ann Widdecombe on 'Strictly...'


Shame. And I don't suppose Spain would contemplate another dictator just yet.


----------



## Beachcomber

Alcalaina said:


> ...Interestingly, the Wall Street Journal seems to think ZP is on the right track...


Moody's Investors Services don't seem to agree:

Spain's Credit Rating Cut One Level to Aa1 by Moody's - Bloomberg


----------



## mrypg9

Alcalaina.....the actions of credit rating agencies really should be taken with a pinch of salt. These same agencies that certified the sub-prime loans and gave them triple A status. .....do we have to take them seriously?
Most of them are closely connected with the very institutions they rate.
The WSJ approves of ZP....now* that* is interesting.
The neo-con Bible.


----------



## mrypg9

This is interesting;

*Credit rating agencies such as Moody's have been subject to criticism in the wake of large losses in the Asset backed security collateralized debt obligation (ABS CDO) market that occurred despite being assigned top ratings by the CRAs. For instance, losses on $340.7 million worth of ABS collateralized debt obligations (CDO) issued by Credit Suisse Group added up to about $125 million, despite being rated Aaa by Moody's.


Moody's has been accused of "blackmail". In one example the German insurer Hannover Re was offered a "free rating" by Moody's. The insurer refused. Moody's continued with the "free ratings", but over time lowered its rating of the company. Still refusing Moody's services, Moody's lowered Hannover's debt to junk, and the company in just hours lost $175 million in market value.

"As the housing market collapsed in late 2007, Moody's Investors Service, whose investment ratings were widely trusted, responded by purging analysts and executives who warned of trouble and promoting those who helped Wall Street plunge the country into its worst financial crisis since the Great Depression. A McClatchy investigation has found that Moody's punished executives who questioned why the company was risking its reputation by putting its profits ahead of providing trustworthy ratings for investment offerings."*


Organisations such as this, which some might consider in part at least responsible for the global financial crisis, should have as much credibility as my grandmother's weather-predicting seaweed.


----------



## Beachcomber

I believe this is a quote from Wikipedia. No wonder you didn't disclose the source:

Moody's - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

or include this rider in your copy and paste:

"*The neutrality of this article is disputed. Please see the discussion on the talk page. Please do not remove this message until the dispute is resolved. *_*(June 2010*)"_

or reveal that virtually exactly the same wording has been used in respect of Fitch Ratings in another Wikipedia entry:

Fitch Group - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

so perhaps they are not the only things that have as much credibility as your grandmother's weather-predicting seaweed.


----------



## mrypg9

Beachcomber said:


> I believe this is a quote from Wikipedia. No wonder you didn't disclose the source:
> 
> Moody's - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> or include this rider in your copy and paste:
> 
> "*The neutrality of this article is disputed. Please see the discussion on the talk page. Please do not remove this message until the dispute is resolved. *_*(June 2010*)"_
> 
> or reveal that virtually exactly the same wording has been used in respect of Fitch Ratings in another Wikipedia entry:
> 
> Fitch Group - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


It is DISPUTED. So it may be TRUE. And the same goes for Fitch.
All comments on matters economic are opinions. Economics is not, as some erroneously suppose, a science.
I posted this to remind people who may not be aware that organisations such as Moody's, Fitch, S& P et al are NOT authorities, any more than Wikipedia..
And it is not a matter of dispute that credit rating agencies rated sub-prime loan packages as triple A.
Nor that they are financially linked to the organisations whose products they rate.


----------



## mrypg9

Beachcomber said:


> so perhaps they are not the only things that have as much credibility as your grandmother's weather-predicting seaweed.


Thank you. You have understood that that is the point I was trying to make.
As I have said, economics is not a science. It has patterns, not laws. 
And the recent flash crises on the US markets illustrate that financial markets are moved by contagion and hysteria and that new communications technologies merely serve to magnify suggestibility.


----------



## Beachcomber

It was the credibility of your post to which I was referring partly because of your failure to credit its dubious source. Anyway, on a purely selfish note, every time Spain's credit rating is reduced the income from my BPE funds increases.


----------



## mrypg9

Beachcomber said:


> It was the credibility of your post to which I was referring partly because of your failure to credit its dubious source. Anyway, on a purely selfish note, every time Spain's credit rating is reduced the income from my BPE funds increases.


I could say the same about exchange and interest rates and our investments.. What would make me happy would depress millions of Brits and probably push the UK economy even faster into a double-dip recession..
The spread on Spanish bond yields isn't historically such as to be a cause for alarm. Recent sales have been oversubscribed, if I remember rightly.
I don't consider Wikipedia to be any more dubious than similar sources. It's all journalism. 
Every word written about economic matters is someone's opinion. You can't even trust the UK Treasury to get its figures correct. They were wildly exaggerated at the time of the Callaghan crisis and the Lawson debacle.
They may be wrong this time....but we won't know until 2020 or thereabouts...


----------



## mrypg9

Deletion of duplicate...


----------



## Beachcomber

My indisposition towards the reliability of Wikipedia is that anyone can make entries or amend existing entries. This is fine when it is used to add knowledge and credible information but it can also be used for mischief making and propounding malicious allegations. Presumably that's why it features a facility for challenging the veracity of its contents.

And, yes, high interest rates and a strong euro would be my idea of bliss but I keep telling myself that I must not be greedy... I must not be greedy... I must not be greedy. No, it's no good, I can't persuade myself.


----------



## Alcalaina

Beachcomber said:


> My indisposition towards the reliability of Wikipedia is that anyone can make entries or amend existing entries. This is fine when it is used to add knowledge and credible information but it can also be used for mischief making and propounding malicious allegations. Presumably that's why it features a facility for challenging the veracity of its contents.
> 
> And, yes, high interest rates and a strong euro would be my idea of bliss but I keep telling myself that I must not be greedy... I must not be greedy... I must not be greedy. No, it's no good, I can't persuade myself.


Spoken like a true capitalist.


----------



## mrypg9

Beachcomber said:


> My indisposition towards the reliability of Wikipedia is that anyone can make entries or amend existing entries. This is fine when it is used to add knowledge and credible information but it can also be used for mischief making and propounding malicious allegations. Presumably that's why it features a facility for challenging the veracity of its contents.
> 
> And, yes, high interest rates and a strong euro would be my idea of bliss but I keep telling myself that I must not be greedy... I must not be greedy... I must not be greedy. No, it's no good, I can't persuade myself.


Try saying 'Greed is good' instead. Repeat very many times.
Look what it did for Michael Douglas.
Earned him lots of money and a wife half his age (after he entered a clinic to be treated for sex addiction, if I remember rightly).
I note _en passant_ that BPE is one of the more ethically sound investment insitutions.....

BTW I want a strong £. Our main investments and income therefrom are nearly all in sterling.


----------



## Beachcomber

Alcalaina said:


> Spoken like a true capitalist.


Exactly. That is just one aspect of my life of which I am extremely proud.


----------



## mrypg9

We are ALL capitalists. We don't choose to be so, we inherit the system when we're born.
There is probably no country in the world -not even North Korea -where even as I post some form of capitalist transaction or other is not taking place.
The question is the degree and form of the capitalism we embrace.
I've often said before that I support a social market economy but not a market society.
It seems to me to be the least imperfect way of organising our economic affairs. 
Adam Smith, often misquoted and misunderstood by both left and right, wrote something to the effect that commercial society was the best form of human association but it was highly imperfect.
He also saw that it contained what to him were 'moral' flaws. Marx' theory of 'alienation' owes a lot to Adam.
But far too many so-called capitalists accept the rewards of the free market but expect governments aka the taxpayer to compensate for risk gone bad.
As we have recently seen.


----------



## owdoggy

mrypg9 said:


> We are ALL capitalists. We don't choose to be so, we inherit the system when we're born.
> There is probably no country in the world -not even North Korea -where even as I post some form of capitalist transaction or other is not taking place.
> The question is the degree and form of the capitalism we embrace.
> I've often said before that I support a social market economy but not a market society.
> It seems to me to be the least imperfect way of organising our economic affairs.
> Adam Smith, often misquoted and misunderstood by both left and right, wrote something to the effect that commercial society was the best form of human association but it was highly imperfect.
> He also saw that it contained what to him were 'moral' flaws. Marx' theory of 'alienation' owes a lot to Adam.
> But far too many so-called capitalists accept the rewards of the free market but expect governments aka the taxpayer to compensate for risk gone bad.
> As we have recently seen.


I was with you all the way up to "choose"



Doggy


----------



## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> We are ALL capitalists. We don't choose to be so, we inherit the system when we're born.
> There is probably no country in the world -not even North Korea -where even as I post some form of capitalist transaction or other is not taking place.
> The question is the degree and form of the capitalism we embrace.
> I've often said before that I support a social market economy but not a market society.
> It seems to me to be the least imperfect way of organising our economic affairs.
> Adam Smith, often misquoted and misunderstood by both left and right, wrote something to the effect that commercial society was the best form of human association but it was highly imperfect.
> He also saw that it contained what to him were 'moral' flaws. Marx' theory of 'alienation' owes a lot to Adam.
> But far too many so-called capitalists accept the rewards of the free market but expect governments aka the taxpayer to compensate for risk gone bad.
> As we have recently seen.


OK, so Beachcomber is proud to be a true capitalist, and I am a reluctant one! 

I have nothing against free enterprise per se, but not when the entrepreneurs profit from exploitation, whether it be exploitation of workers or of consumers. As I see it, this is how it works today:


The capitalist system need consumers to buy its products. 
Wages are kept as low as employers can get away with.
Advertising persuades people they must have these goods.
So the system obligingly loans them the money to buy the very goods they produce - the basis of the credit-card society. 
Capitalists then pocket the surplus value of the goods AND the interest from this debt. 

PS I thought the theory of alienation was Durkheim's? Or was that anomie? Must go and look it up.

PPS I am (literally) waiting for paint to dry, which is why I keep popping back here!


----------



## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> OK, so Beachcomber is proud to be a true capitalist, and I am a reluctant one!
> 
> I have nothing against free enterprise per se, but not when the entrepreneurs profit from exploitation, whether it be exploitation of workers or of consumers. As I see it, this is how it works today:
> 
> 
> The capitalist system need consumers to buy its products.
> Wages are kept as low as employers can get away with.
> Advertising persuades people they must have these goods.
> So the system obligingly loans them the money to buy the very goods they produce - the basis of the credit-card society.
> Capitalists then pocket the surplus value of the goods AND the interest from this debt.
> 
> PS I thought the theory of alienation was Durkheim's? Or was that anomie? Must go and look it up.
> 
> PPS I am (literally) waiting for paint to dry, which is why I keep popping back here!



Marx' s theory was about the alienating effects of wage labour. 
I can't see what's immoral about making a profit per se....especially if significant risks are taken by the entrepreneur.
But there is a need for regulation of wages and profits in the interests of public order as well as the moral aspect.
It could be said that capitalism has done as much to improve the lives of people especially women in terms of providing labour-saving devices and so on as social and political movements have done.
They work side by side imo.
Ask any hundred women at random for their views.


----------



## mrypg9

owdoggy said:


> I was with you all the way up to "choose"
> 
> 
> 
> Doggy



What's wrong with the rest?


----------



## Beachcomber

Capitalist I may be but given Alcalain's five point description of how capitalism works it would fail miserably if it depended on people like me for it to function successfully.


----------



## Alcalaina

Beachcomber said:


> Capitalist I may be but given Alcalain's five point description of how capitalism works it would fail miserably if it depended on people like me for it to function successfully.


That's reassuring! But do you recognise the scenario though? Don't you think it's immoral?


----------



## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> That's reassuring! But do you recognise the scenario though? Don't you think it's immoral?


That's an open-ended question. Morality could be said to be only one aspect - how about efficiency? A 'moral' system of production and distribution which failed to clothe and feed people wouldn't be desirable.
Some might think it immoral and unfair to treat 'unequals' equally. In most enterprises employees who work hard and those who are less diligent for various reasons receive the same rate. That's equally true of some professionals.
I'm all in favour of regulatory systems which curb the worst excesses of the market but I can't see that there is anything inherently immoral in the theory of capitalism itself. A system of exchange at a rate agreed by both parties to the transaction isn't inherently immoral. But there needs to be a balance.
Biblical teachings are vague and even contradictory on the 'morality' of commerce. 
Capitalism in its social market form has been a part of our culture since time immemorial. Public sentiment kept would-be vultures at bay: an angry populace punished traders who pushed up prices in times of shortage by ransacking their goods or burning their premises.
It was only in the mid-nineteenth century when laissez-faire principles were introduced into the system that exploitation and injustice became an integral part of it.
But whatever our views, no better alternative has been found as yet....


----------



## Beachcomber

Alcalaina said:


> That's reassuring! But do you recognise the scenario though? Don't you think it's immoral?


No, not really. It's what makes the world go round but if everyone were to follow my example the world would stop as I am not a consumer. 

For example, my newest car is ten years old, my TV still sticks out a half a meter at the back, my ancient mobile telephone doesn't even have a camera, I don't have any loans or mortgages, I rarely use my one and only credit card and when I do I pay off the balance before it attracts interest. In the rare event that I want to watch a programme on commercial television I record it and fast forward over the advertisements and my internet browser has Ad-Block and Flash-Block add-ons so that I never see any advertisements on internet fora or other sites. In addition to which I have never used the services of an advertising agency, estate agent, financial advisor, account, lawyer or any other Mr Ten Percenter.

Luckily for me I am not typical but I am quite happy for other people to contribute to the capitalist society as long as it helps to keep me in the manner to which I have become accustomed. 

I am quite prepared to be criticised, flamed and generally castigated for my attitude but I shall not take offence.


----------



## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> That's an open-ended question. Morality could be said to be only one aspect - how about efficiency? A 'moral' system of production and distribution which failed to clothe and feed people wouldn't be desirable.


True, but the market doesn't do this either. And the 'moral' system is more likely to ensure that people get fed and clothed.



mrypg9 said:


> Some might think it immoral and unfair to treat 'unequals' equally. In most enterprises employees who work hard and those who are less diligent for various reasons receive the same rate. That's equally true of some professionals.


From each according to their ability, to each according to their need (Marx)
Parable of the vineyard workers (JC)


mrypg9 said:


> I'm all in favour of regulatory systems which curb the worst excesses of the market but I can't see that there is anything inherently immoral in the theory of capitalism itself. A system of exchange at a rate agreed by both parties to the transaction isn't inherently immoral. But there needs to be a balance.


When was the rate of exchange ever agreed by both parties? The balance of power is invariably with the capitalists.



mrypg9 said:


> Biblical teachings are vague and even contradictory on the 'morality' of commerce.


Not surprising, the Church always takes the side of the ruling class. It even legitimised slavery.



mrypg9 said:


> Capitalism in its social market form has been a part of our culture since time immemorial. Public sentiment kept would-be vultures at bay: an angry populace punished traders who pushed up prices in times of shortage by ransacking their goods or burning their premises.
> It was only in the mid-nineteenth century when laissez-faire principles were introduced into the system that exploitation and injustice became an integral part of it.
> But whatever our views, no better alternative has been found as yet....


True!

I'm just off to burn down the local Movistar shop ...


----------



## Alcalaina

Beachcomber said:


> No, not really. It's what makes the world go round but if everyone were to follow my example the world would stop as I* am not a consumer. *


Ah, when you said my 5-point model wouldn't function if it depended on people like you, I took it to mean you were the sort of capitalist who didn't exploit workers or consumers ... which may still be true of course, but it wasn't what you meant!

Surely you buy food, clothes, petrol for your car, dog food, electricity, internet service provider ... you make a choice every time you purchase something. You may not be an exploited consumer, but you are certainly a consumer; we all are.

Personally I think consumer choice is a tool just as powerful as the vote, if not more so, these days.

Forgive me for waffling off the point. :focus:


----------



## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> True, but the market doesn't do this either. And the 'moral' system is more likely to ensure that people get fed and clothed.
> 
> *I did say that no system is perfect. I just think that capitalism has brought the greater good to the greatest number. But I agree that there have been fearsome casualties along the way.
> Now....what exactly is the 'moral' system? Has there ever been one so we can judge its efficiency?*
> 
> 
> From each according to their ability, to each according to their need (Marx)
> Parable of the vineyard workers (JC)
> 
> *Marx used 'ability' and 'need' as his yardsticks but these are subjective criteria. Some might substitute 'effort' or even 'deserts' for 'need'. That parable about the workers in the vineyard is very anti-trade union ethos, btw All the workers got paid the same, even those who started later and worked the least hours, if I remember rightly. When I had to conduct school assemblies and spoke on that text I used to alter the end bit...... *
> 
> When was the rate of exchange ever agreed by both parties? The balance of power is invariably with the capitalists.
> 
> *Not any more it isn't. Without going into tedious detail, our own business history belies that. We had to employ highly-skilled technicians who where very scarce in our area. They had us over a barrel and knew it. Our General Manager earnt more in salary than my partner the owner and MD. There are very many SMEs in that position. Capitalism is a lot more complex today than in the nineteenth century. Power balances shift.*
> 
> 
> Not surprising, the Church always takes the side of the ruling class. It even legitimised slavery.
> 
> *Can't disagree, although you can pin the blame for that more on Protestantism than Catholicism - if you can concentrate on the teaching and ignore the splendour of the Vatican, the Pope's robes and Gucci loafers and the antics of the Vatican Bank.
> But we shouldn't forget Liberation Theology and the brave nuns and priests working in South and Central America whose Christian message places them squarely in confrontation with right-wing governments and has led to the death of many, including Archbishop Romero, gunned down as he was celebrating Holy Mass*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> True!
> 
> I'm just off to burn down the local Movistar shop ...


Burn baby burn!!!!
Could you include any branch of LloydsTSB next time you're in the UK and have a fit of righteous incendiary tendencies?


As is my wont lately, I'm fence-sitting again.

'Verily verily I say unto ye, ye that sitteth upon a fence shall be sorely afflicted in thy backside and reviled by all right (and left) thinking persons'.....
Gospel according to Saint Mary the Lesser

I heard this on Radio 4 'Today' this morning and loved it;

'All argument is against it, all belief for it'.
Samuel Johnson on the (non) existence of ghosts.


----------



## mrypg9

People who don't spend or consume are obstructing the economic recovery according to the Governor of the Bank of England.


----------



## Beachcomber

Exactly, and if I am 'obstructing the economic recovery' that's just too bad. That's why they are holding down interest rates artificially forcing people to eat into their capital so that when rates rise again, as they surely will, these people won't have any savings left on which the bank will have to pay interest.


----------



## dunmovin

mrypg9 said:


> People who don't spend or consume are obstructing the economic recovery according to the Governor of the Bank of England.


good grief Mary... what are you trying to do to me???....my wife reads these posts


----------



## gus-lopez

I remember years ago the saying that those who didn't drink ,didn't smoke, didn't gamble, or drive big gas- guzzling cars were sponging off the rest !


----------



## mrypg9

Beachcomber said:


> Exactly, and if I am 'obstructing the economic recovery' that's just too bad. That's why they are holding down interest rates artificially forcing people to eat into their capital so that when rates rise again, as they surely will, these people won't have any savings left on which the bank will have to pay interest.



We did all the right things. Worked, paid all our taxes - never cheated -, both personal and business, treated the people we employed fairly, never had debts or even mortgages on our properties....and paid off credit cards at the end of each month....(Amex once told told me I was not a 'good' customer because they made no money from me...)
And we invested money from our remuneration and profits to provide for a comfortable -not super-luxurious -life in retirement. When we decided 'Enough already' we sold all properties and naively thought our income from invested capital would be a lot more than adequate.
Instead we are subsidising the excessive mortgages and feckless loans of the beneficiaries of low interest rates. We are paying tax on dividends the purchase of which was made by money already taxed....
Yes, business needs low interest rates to recover and head off the threat of double-dip recession. But the banks our taxes helped bail out aren't lending.....
We did everything wrong. We should have maxed all our credit cards, taken out huge loans, exploited our workers....
So much for Mrs. Thatcher's gospel of thrift and Gordon Brown's mate 'prudence'.
But we can't complain as we are living a pleasant life here.
There are very very many who aren't so fortunate though.


----------



## papaco95

*Spain Dying????*

Oh my goodness!! people what are we all doing? first I'd like to say I was in Rota, Cadiz this summer and it was wonderful yes lots of tourists and the regular towns people were wishing for peace even though they knew the money helped but they are still building there and yes theres lots of real estate for rentals or buys but thats everywhere, Spain has always beena great country! weather there was money coming in or not the "Best" way of living ever!! over the years it seems as more and more Immigriants moving in because they know where to get the best life style and living there is in Spain. Look at USA the whole world lives there!! but no one there "lives" they live to WORK! in Spain they work to LIVE!! even on alittle, everyone in this world is going through a recession even the rich so what are people talking about it just sounds like jealousy to me and envy, and what are the Brits saying when spain was good to them while it was convenient only?? Wow thats sad It amazing that people have lost there focus on life. Make do with what you have and stop bashing other countries you never know when you may need them! Oh and by the way Our family is moving to Spain in December. I can't wait to be apart of that country's ups and downs it will be embraced by our family.


----------



## xabiaxica

papaco95 said:


> Oh my goodness!! people what are we all doing? first I'd like to say I was in Rota, Cadiz this summer and it was wonderful yes lots of tourists and the regular towns people were wishing for peace even though they knew the money helped but they are still building there and yes theres lots of real estate for rentals or buys but thats everywhere, Spain has always beena great country! weather there was money coming in or not the "Best" way of living ever!! over the years it seems as more and more Immigriants moving in because they know where to get the best life style and living there is in Spain. Look at USA the whole world lives there!! but no one there "lives" they live to WORK! in Spain they work to LIVE!! even on alittle, everyone in this world is going through a recession even the rich so what are people talking about it just sounds like jealousy to me and envy, and what are the Brits saying when spain was good to them while it was convenient only?? Wow thats sad It amazing that people have lost there focus on life. Make do with what you have and stop bashing other countries you never know when you may need them! Oh and by the way Our family is moving to Spain in December. I can't wait to be apart of that country's ups and downs it will be embraced by our family.


wow & welcome!!


I don't think any of us are bashing Spain, but we are living the reality of a deep recession

it's not affecting me personally - but I know many people who are really struggling

_extranjeros_ who can no longer earn a living/live on their pensions/interest from investments & have walked away from their homes & gone back to wherever they came from

Spanish nationals too, who have lost their jobs or had their hours cut dramatically

some lucky enough to have had a proper contract so are claiming_ paro_ & have everything crossed that things improve & they can get another job before it runs out


those of us still here are here because we love the country - but most of us ditched the rose-tinted specs long ago & are happy to admit that there are problems here - some of them HUGE & sort of self-inflicted - & try to save people the heartache of coming over with nothing when prospects are so bad


but as I said - we stay because love the place


----------



## mrypg9

papaco95 said:


> Oh my goodness!! people what are we all doing? first I'd like to say I was in Rota, Cadiz this summer and it was wonderful yes lots of tourists and the regular towns people were wishing for peace even though they knew the money helped but they are still building there and yes theres lots of real estate for rentals or buys but thats everywhere, Spain has always beena great country! weather there was money coming in or not the "Best" way of living ever!! over the years it seems as more and more Immigriants moving in because they know where to get the best life style and living there is in Spain. Look at USA the whole world lives there!! but no one there "lives" they live to WORK! in Spain they work to LIVE!! even on alittle, everyone in this world is going through a recession even the rich so what are people talking about it just sounds like jealousy to me and envy, and what are the Brits saying when spain was good to them while it was convenient only?? Wow thats sad It amazing that people have lost there focus on life. Make do with what you have and stop bashing other countries you never know when you may need them! Oh and by the way Our family is moving to Spain in December. I can't wait to be apart of that country's ups and downs it will be embraced by our family.


I think you have got the wrong end of the stick. No-one on this forum has seriously defended those videos. We are almost unanimous in pointing out that they are partial and biased.
If you have read through the previous posts you will see that we are in agreement that whilst Spain is in serious economic difficulties, no-one would describe it as 'dying'. I have constantly advocated the opposite.
But you are ignoring hard facts. The more than four million Spaniards without work are not starving, that's true, but it's not a situation most of us would be happy to find ourselves in.
And where does this 'jealousy' and 'envy' come into it? These emotions haven't figured in any posts on this thread. I would however suggest that fairness might be an appropriate moral yardstick in the face of a situation where bankers supported by taxpayers receive £million bonuses whilst those on the lowest incomes are seeing their pay cut. 
You are not yet living in Spain so you don't really have much experience on which to base a valid judgment, do you? Incidentally, as a citizen of the USA, non EU, I sincerely hope your emigration to this lovely country will be problem-free.
May I suggest that you start at Page One of this admittedly lengthy thread and read again carefully?
You will then see a balanced set of posts describing life in Spain as it is, the good and the bad. No 'Spain bashing', no 'jealousy'.
Just personal views based on walking the walk, not just talking the talk, as you say in the US of A.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

papaco95 said:


> Oh my goodness!! people what are we all doing? first I'd like to say I was in Rota, Cadiz this summer and it was wonderful yes lots of tourists and the regular towns people were wishing for peace even though they knew the money helped but they are still building there and yes theres lots of real estate for rentals or buys but thats everywhere, Spain has always beena great country! weather there was money coming in or not the "Best" way of living ever!! over the years it seems as more and more Immigriants moving in because they know where to get the best life style and living there is in Spain. Look at USA the whole world lives there!! but no one there "lives" they live to WORK! in Spain they work to LIVE!! even on alittle, everyone in this world is going through a recession even the rich so what are people talking about it just sounds like jealousy to me and envy, and what are the Brits saying when spain was good to them while it was convenient only?? Wow thats sad It amazing that people have lost there focus on life. Make do with what you have and stop bashing other countries you never know when you may need them! Oh and by the way Our family is moving to Spain in December. I can't wait to be apart of that country's ups and downs it will be embraced by our family.


Hi papaco95,
I think you may have got the wrong end of the stick. 
Many of the people who have posted on this thread have lived, and in some cases worked in Spain for a while now, years even and in my case 23 years. That is not to say that we know everything; been there done that attitude, but yes, I would say I know more about Spain, in particular the Bilbao and the Madrid area, than people who spent a few weeks here on holiday. 
One of the purposes of the forum is to share what we know about Spain with other people. Opinions may differ about is Spanish food good, where's the best place to buy wine... Other issues are difficult to get to the bottom of because Spain has different legislation in place in different areas, so what's the situation with healthcare, what papers do you need to sign your child up for school etc are questions that may require different answers depending on where you live (and also nationality, age etc)
But one thing that everyone agrees on is that Spain is not a healthy country now. There is 20% unemployment, more than 40% among young people. The ramifications are enormous. Most sectors of government employment have received pay cuts. More than a million people can't pay their mortgages. House prices have plummeted. IVA (tax) has gone up. Not to mention the corruption which is rife in all of Spain in one way or another.
This is not Spain bashing. It's called telling the truth!!
As xabiachica says, most of the people here are more than happy to stay and most will - if they can.
Many people who come on to this forum to ask questions are unqualified, or have UK qualifications which are not recognised here. Many don't speak Spanish. Many are bringing over children who will have to fit into the Spanish way of life. I can't tell someone in that situation to sell their house, bring the family over and look for a job and that everything's great in Spain 'cos the sun shines FFS!
I'm glad to see that you're looking forward to moving to Spain, but I'm guessing you've got a job, you've got some money and you may even speak Spanish. Good! I'm sure it will work out. You're right, Spain has been and IS a great country, but don't deny the obvious. Spain has HUGE problems now which need to be confronted.
But please don't tell me_ " I've lost my focus on life" _'cos that just isn't true!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Looks like papaco95's got a lot of sticks to pick up )


----------



## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> Hi papaco95,
> I think you may have got the wrong end of the stick.
> Many of the people who have posted on this thread have lived, and in some cases worked in Spain for a while now, years even and in my case 23 years. That is not to say that we know everything; been there done that attitude, but yes, I would say I know more about Spain, in particular the Bilbao and the Madrid area, than people who spent a few weeks here on holiday.
> One of the purposes of the forum is to share what we know about Spain with other people. Opinions may differ about is Spanish food good, where's the best place to buy wine... Other issues are difficult to get to the bottom of because Spain has different legislation in place in different areas, so what's the situation with healthcare, what papers do you need to sign your child up for school etc are questions that may require different answers depending on where you live (and also nationality, age etc)
> But one thing that everyone agrees on is that Spain is not a healthy country now. There is 20% unemployment, more than 40% among young people. The ramifications are enormous. Most sectors of government employment have received pay cuts. More than a million people can't pay their mortgages. House prices have plummeted. IVA (tax) has gone up. Not to mention the corruption which is rife in all of Spain in one way or another.
> This is not Spain bashing. It's called telling the truth!!
> As xabiachica says, most of the people here are more than happy to stay and most will - if they can.
> Many people who come on to this forum to ask questions are unqualified, or have UK qualifications which are not recognised here. Many don't speak Spanish. Many are bringing over children who will have to fit into the Spanish way of life. I can't tell someone in that situation to sell their house, bring the family over and look for a job and that everything's great in Spain 'cos the sun shines FFS!
> I'm glad to see that you're looking forward to moving to Spain, but I'm guessing you've got a job, you've got some money and you may even speak Spanish. Good! I'm sure it will work out. You're right, Spain has been and IS a great country, but don't deny the obvious. Spain has HUGE problems now which need to be confronted.
> But please don't tell me_ " I've lost my focus on life" _'cos that just isn't true!


Tells it like it is...
Interestingly...the £ is now below 1.14 euros, chiefly because of fears that the BoE may have to print more money. Stronger euro won't help Spain though.
And why??? Because insufficient money is circulating in the economy.
And why?? Because of the puny cuts so far inflicted and because people are afraid of what is to come and aren't buying big-ticket items such as houses.
And because double-dip recession looms large on the horizon.
I'm about to do a series of video clips for You Tube entitled 'Is Britain Dying?'
Only joking....for the moment.


----------



## Alcalaina

papaco95 said:


> Oh my goodness!! people what are we all doing? first I'd like to say I was in Rota, Cadiz this summer and it was wonderful yes lots of tourists and the regular towns people were wishing for peace even though they knew the money helped but they are still building there and yes theres lots of real estate for rentals or buys but thats everywhere, Spain has always beena great country! weather there was money coming in or not the "Best" way of living ever!! over the years it seems as more and more Immigriants moving in because they know where to get the best life style and living there is in Spain. Look at USA the whole world lives there!! but no one there "lives" they live to WORK! in Spain they work to LIVE!! even on alittle, everyone in this world is going through a recession even the rich so what are people talking about it just sounds like jealousy to me and envy, and what are the Brits saying when spain was good to them while it was convenient only?? Wow thats sad It amazing that people have lost there focus on life. Make do with what you have and stop bashing other countries you never know when you may need them! Oh and by the way Our family is moving to Spain in December. I can't wait to be apart of that country's ups and downs it will be embraced by our family.


Hola Papaco - I'd just like to point out that Rota is a long, long way from the Costa Blanca, where those miserable videos were shot - both physically and economically. All those lovely folks from the USA who work at the base spend a lot of money there. Are your family moving to that area?

Also Rota is on the beautiful Costa de la Luz, where sensible Spanish people from Sevilla and Madrid go for their holidays, not the polluted, overcrowded Mediterranean where most of the British expats and holiday makers go. The Costa de la Luz has one or two empty commercial centres and some unsold properties too, but _nothing_ like what is shown in the video. It is certainly not dying!

I am of course completely biased ...


----------



## xabiaxica

Alcalaina said:


> I am of course completely biased ...


really??


never would have guessed


----------



## Alcalaina

xabiachica said:


> really??
> 
> never would have guessed


Come on over and find out why!!


----------



## xabiaxica

Alcalaina said:


> Come on over and find out why!!


tbh although I am actually on the costa blanca that's nothing like where I live either!!!


although - yes, you can tell there's a recession


I think people forget just how big a country Spain is!!


----------



## papaco95

*Spain Dying????*

And I totally agree with you  People need to worry about there families and trust in the Lord for change I think this all is for our benefit to change the things that need to, it may be a "wake up call". Spain is pretty damn big and theres room for those who wish to be there and share the Country in a positive way.


----------



## xicoalc

xabiachica said:


> tbh although I am actually on the costa blanca that's nothing like where I live either!!!
> 
> 
> although - yes, you can tell there's a recession
> 
> 
> I think people forget just how big a country Spain is!!


i agree xabiachica... where i live, on the face of it you wouldnt know theres a problem, hussle, bussle, people going about their lives... of course theres a problem but theres a problem everywhere in the world... id rather be here than back home!!!


----------



## Joturke

I would not compare in detail this vast country: Within details only are different views,

Cádiz and the people here do have their identity within Spain- perhaps the view here is more: seen it before and what do economists know
Here. people cope, enjoy ,suffer and continue a postive on life ,where possible.


----------



## mrypg9

Joturke said:


> I would not compare in detail this vast country: Within details only are different views,
> 
> Cádiz and the people here do have their identity within Spain- perhaps the view here is more: seen it before and what do economists know
> Here. people cope, enjoy ,suffer and continue a postive on life ,where possible.


Well, yes, that's what people do. Even in wars, floods and famine, people get on with life.
But unemployment at 20%, sluggish economic growth, a public sector deficit of 11% and severe structural problems are FACTS and only a fool or a dreamer would deny them.
But that doesn't mean we should all reach for the gun or the cyanide pills, as some of us have been pointing out.


----------



## mrypg9

papaco95 said:


> And I totally agree with you  People need to worry about there families and trust in the Lord for change Country in a positive way.



Well, as the saying goes, 'Praise the Lord.....and pass the ammunition'.
Those of a cynical turn of mind might think that the Lord is too busy standing by watching floods, earthquakes, famine and other kinds of suffering, chiefly inflicted on the poor, to have any interest in Spain's problems.


----------



## nigele2

mrypg9 said:


> Well, as the saying goes, 'Praise the Lord.....and pass the ammunition'.
> Those of a cynical turn of mind might think that the Lord is too busy standing by watching floods, earthquakes, famine and other kinds of suffering, chiefly inflicted on the poor, to have any interest in Spain's problems.


Well said Mary. I wanted to say that but chickened out


----------



## ELL2403

*Good article, Steve*

Steve has given a very fair summary of ex-pat living in Spain and has very elegantly rebutted those shocking videos which show a very one sided and distorted image of this beautiful and cultural vibrant country. 

We have lived happily on the Costa Blanca for 12 years and had experience through visits for much longer than that. The main thing I should like to say is - do your homework and research as much as possible in advance! That should, as in our case, include learning some Spanish. Spain is a huge and diverse country in just about every respect, culture, economics, climate etc. Each region is "autonomous" and there are differences which need to be explored before you make final decisions as to where you live as these will have a major bearing on your life there (and indeed on any inheritance you may leave to your family) if you stick it out. 
I am so fed up with British people who come to Spain for all the perceived benefits, but who are not prepared to put anything back - not even trying to learn a few basic Spanish words, or seeing it as their God given right to run old English cars without proper documentation, to not go on the "padron" (register of domicile on which the funding of all local amenities is based), very often not wanting to pay their taxes etc. so preferring to remain "invisible" to the authorities. Oh yes! We all know that Spanish "manana" can mean that things take ages to work through the system and that theoretically you can get away with it, sometimes for ages, if not for ever! But some of us can only sleep in our beds at night in the knowledge that we have tried to comply with the system, to be good citizens in our adopted homeland and to enjoy this wonderful country, culture and people - you only get out of life what you are prepared to put in! 

There is no doubt that things here have changed in the last few years - there has been the "triple whammy" largely brought on by the World financial crisis - shockingly poor interest rates for those who have managed to save for their retirement, poor exchange rates and a fast rising cost of living. There has also been a climate of greed with people jumping on the Buy To Let bandwagon, fuelled by the banks and building societies being prepared to lend money on a whim! These video clips are just part of an uninformed and twisted press campaign in the UK, probably fuelled by jealousy, to only ever focus on the negative points. Believe me, there is still so much here to make it worth taking that exciting step forward.

Do your homework, inform yourself as much as possible, don't believe everything that newspapers or other (expat.) people tell you (especially in Spanish bars!), don't do as often others do and leave your brain behind in the UK, perhaps even try to rent for a period before full commitment to see how you find things for yourself - you may be happily surprised! After all, life in the UK is often not a bowl of cherries! Good Luck!


----------



## Alcalaina

papaco95 said:


> And I totally agree with you  People need to worry about there families and trust in the Lord for change ....


Which lord would that be, then? We've got a king, but I don't trust him. We've got a president, I used to trust him but not any more!

Common sense, flexibility and an intelligent awareness of what is going on around you is the best way to survive.


----------



## mrypg9

nigele2 said:


> Well said Mary. I wanted to say that but chickened out


Well, if you don't hear from me after this post........you'll know the Lord didn't appreciate my comment.
But somehow I think I'll be around
How's things with you, anyway? Have you been sampling the Badgers lately?
I found some in Morrisons Gibraltar.


----------



## nigele2

mrypg9 said:


> Well, if you don't hear from me after this post........you'll know the Lord didn't appreciate my comment.
> But somehow I think I'll be around
> How's things with you, anyway? Have you been sampling the Badgers lately?
> I found some in Morrisons Gibraltar.


Mary one of the three pubs in the village has just opened after refurbishment. Well it would be rude not too ...... so we did 

The London Pride was as good as ever and then a nice pint of a local Berkshire brew. All went down a treat with a sack of spuds .

Tomorrow off to Ringwood to see my mum so the odd Badger may slide down 

Actually haven't had a pint for over a week and some how that first one just always seems to hit the spot. In the same way as the black foot and a glass of Albarino when I get to Madrid (that MIL spoils me) and the merluza and a glass of Estrella when I arrive in Asturias.

I guess it is true, absence makes the ..............................................

:focus:


----------



## Alcalaina

nigele2 said:


> Mary one of the three pubs in the village has just opened after refurbishment. Well it would be rude not too ...... so we did
> 
> The London Pride was as good as ever and then a nice pint of a local Berkshire brew. All went down a treat with a sack of spuds .
> 
> Tomorrow off to Ringwood to see my mum so the odd Badger may slide down
> 
> Actually haven't had a pint for over a week and some how that first one just always seems to hit the spot. In the same way as the black foot and a glass of Albarino when I get to Madrid (that MIL spoils me) and the merluza and a glass of Estrella when I arrive in Asturias.
> 
> I guess it is true, absence makes the ..............................................
> 
> :focus:


Aw, don't - I'd kill for a pint of Brakspears right now!

Don't get the craving over the summer, but as soon as the weather cools down ...


----------



## mrypg9

nigele2 said:


> Mary one of the three pubs in the village has just opened after refurbishment. Well it would be rude not too ...... so we did
> 
> The London Pride was as good as ever and then a nice pint of a local Berkshire brew. All went down a treat with a sack of spuds .
> 
> Tomorrow off to Ringwood to see my mum so the odd Badger may slide down
> 
> Actually haven't had a pint for over a week and some how that first one just always seems to hit the spot. In the same way as the black foot and a glass of Albarino when I get to Madrid (that MIL spoils me) and the merluza and a glass of Estrella when I arrive in Asturias.
> 
> I guess it is true, absence makes the ..............................................
> 
> :focus:



Ah....Ringwood...Christchurch.....Milford-on-Sea...Mudeford....Blandford.....Shaftesbury...Wimborne
Ou sont les neiges d'autre-temps..???
Nigel, at times I envy you....
Did I tell you that my Great-Aunt used to be Landlady of the Railway Arms in Blandford during and after the War?
It's one of those Victorian redbrick railway taverns with those lovely etched (?) glass windows...


----------



## aquarius

*Spain is ill, not dying!*



adelante said:


> Hi, I am looking into moving to Spain - not now, but in a couple of years, but keeping an open mind with regards to the situation over there. Trying to get as much information as possible.
> 
> I have seen this scary  3 part set of vids on youtube, called ´Spain is Dying´. My question to those of you over there now, is this indicative of the true situation - or is the guy hyping things up?
> 
> YouTube - Spain is Dying (part 1 of 3).mpg
> 
> And a wider question. If you had the chance to do it again, relocate to another country - where would you choose? Is the answer anywhere out of the EuroZone? Where has all the good things that Spain offers, but minus the mega economic problems?


We have been living in Spain for nearly 3 years in Murcia near Los Alcazares and wouldn't go back to the UK without a lot of kicking and screaming! Yes its true things are not what they used to be but no European country is sitting pretty is it? All you need to be aware of is that Spain is no longer a cheap place to live, if you need to work when here then either make sure you have a trade that is still required, and dont rely on finding employment as the Brits here are chasing any vacancies already. It is not impossible to start your own business but once you decide not to work 'in the black' you have a lot of paperwork and need a good accountant. It is not an easy life here at the moment but you have a lot of FREE things too, like the weather, fabulous beaches, wonderful countryside etc. Yep, we love Spain and intend to hang on in there until the good times come back, and they will in a few years.


----------



## mrypg9

aquarius said:


> It is not impossible to start your own business but once you decide not to work 'in the black' you have a lot of paperwork and need a good accountant. .




Should anyone decide to work 'on the black' in the first place? Especially immigrants?
Spaniards who do it are in effect hurting themselves in the medium and long term and as for British immigrants.....the Daily Mail has a field day with lurid tales of foreigners who work illegally in the UK - because that's what it is, illegal.
I despise tax frauds and benefits cheats equally. Both are riding on someone else's back.


----------



## xicoalc

mrypg9 said:


> Should anyone decide to work 'on the black' in the first place? Especially immigrants?
> Spaniards who do it are in effect hurting themselves in the medium and long term and as for British immigrants.....the Daily Mail has a field day with lurid tales of foreigners who work illegally in the UK - because that's what it is, illegal.
> I despise tax frauds and benefits cheats equally. Both are riding on someone else's back.


:high5: Couldn't agree more! Well said!

In the UK everyone (and with reason) complain about the number of "illegals" yet so many come to Spain, work on the black market, pocket the cash and do nothing except for *thieving *work from the genuine respectable tax payers, and of course *thieving *money form the govornment.

I am self employed and yes, like everyone I never like the social security going out of the bank, and I never like paying my income tax, IVA etc (who would), BUT I pay it, why do I pay it? Because it is the right thing to do, it's the law, and because I should!

People who "work on the black" are able to undercut the prices of the genuine workers, because they are not paying 250E social security a month, they are not paying 20% (or more) income tax, and they are not paying 18% IVA. GET RID OF THEM!

I have come to this country as an imigrant, I benefit from all this wonderful country has to offer, the very least I can do is put something back into the system and pay what I am legally obliged to pay.

It makes me angry when I see genuine expats loosing money because of illegals, but what saddens me more is when I see local spaniards, hard working, struggling to get work, whilst illgal workers are cashing in.

In my humble opinion, those who don't should be deported back to the UK! If all the illegals were gone, there would be more money for us legitimate hard working tax paying people. and of course more money going into the central pot - thus boosting the country out of the crap it is in much quicker!


----------



## mrypg9

steve_in_spain said:


> :high5: Couldn't agree more! Well said!
> 
> In the UK everyone (and with reason) complain about the number of "illegals" yet so many come to Spain, work on the black market, pocket the cash and do nothing except for thieving work from the genuine respectable tax payers, and of course thieving money form the govornment.
> 
> I am self employed and yes, like everyone I never like the social security going out of the bank, and I never like paying my income tax, IVA etc (who would), BUT I pay it, why do I pay it? Because it is the right thing to do, it's the law, and because I should....
> 
> I have come to this country as an imigrant, I benefit from all this wonderful country has to offer, the very least I can do is put something back into the system and pay what I am legally obliged to pay.
> 
> In my humble opinion, those who don't should be deported back to the UK! If all the illegals were gone, there would be more money for us legitimate hard working tax paying people. and of course more money going into the central pot - thus boosting the country out of the crap it is in much quicker!


Well said, Steve.
And now...go treat yourself to that coffee machine.....


----------



## xicoalc

mrypg9 said:


> Well said, Steve.
> And now...go treat yourself to that coffee machine.....


ooh i think i need one now!!!


----------



## anles

steve_in_spain said:


> :high5:
> 
> People who "work on the black" are able to undercut the prices of the genuine workers, because they are not paying 250E social security a month, they are not paying 20% (or more) income tax, and they are not paying 18% IVA. GET RID OF THEM!


Black economy here is very extended amongst the Spaniards and while it benefits no one, it isn't so easy to eradicate because it is very expensive to employ people legally. People who aren't entitled to benefits or have run out of options to claim frequently don't have much alternative, they either work on the black or their families starve. So how do you get rid of them? I suppose they could emigrate to the UK.


----------



## xicoalc

anles said:


> Black economy here is very extended amongst the Spaniards and while it benefits no one, it isn't so easy to eradicate because it is very expensive to employ people legally. People who aren't entitled to benefits or have run out of options to claim frequently don't have much alternative, they either work on the black or their families starve. So how do you get rid of them? I suppose they could emigrate to the UK.


Yes, but its a viscious circle... the reason it appears expensive to employ people is because legitimate companies have to compete with illegal traders in a price war. If they could charge the going rate (ie if the undercutting illegals were dealt with), then they would turn over more money and could afford to employ people legally.

Having said that, that would bump prices of everything up and a lot of people would not be able to afford to live...... hmm difficult I guess!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

anles said:


> Black economy here is very extended amongst the Spaniards and while it benefits no one, it isn't so easy to eradicate because it is very expensive to employ people legally. People who aren't entitled to benefits or have run out of options to claim frequently don't have much alternative, they either work on the black or their families starve. So how do you get rid of them? I suppose they could emigrate to the UK.


I can see both your and Steve's point of view.
I hope opening a business, employing others, going self employed etc will be at least simplified in the future. If it's simplified it should be cheaper to do it, and then perhaps more people could afford to do it.


----------



## Thader

Many profit from working in the Black....Until it comes to the time to draw a state pension. When told they are not entitled to one, thats when they will regret not working legally.
CD


----------



## jimenato

Well I have just started my own business and my accountant tells me that it will cost 400€ per month per employee (at least) in payments to the government. She will charge me 100€ to set up each employee's payroll and 20€ per month per employee to process their payroll. 

I will therefore not be employing anyone.

Autonomo social security payment is 270€ per month mas o menos and remember you have to pay it however much you earn. This does not encourage people to go legal. I can quite understand the person who teaches pottery two days per week, the person who grooms about three dogs per week and the person who trades on every car boot sale they can find working in the black.

It's not right of course and I wouldn't do it myself - but I can understand it.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

jimenato said:


> Well I have just started my own business and my accountant tells me that it will cost 400€ per month per employee (at least) in payments to the government. She will charge me 100€ to set up each employee's payroll and 20€ per month per employee to process their payroll.
> 
> I will therefore not be employing anyone.
> 
> Autonomo social security payment is 270€ per month mas o menos and remember you have to pay it however much you earn. This does not encourage people to go legal. I can quite understand the person who teaches pottery two days per week, the person who grooms about three dogs per week and the person who trades on every car boot sale they can find working in the black.
> 
> It's not right of course and I wouldn't do it myself - but I can understand it.


Me too!
That's what I meant in my post before. I think if the system was more workable, easier, fairer, accessible and just not so expensive, more people would do things legally. A lot of people just can't afford to do things through the books. There are always those who just want to get away with it of course, but I mean people who are merely trying to make a living.

Fom Thader


> Many profit from working in the Black....Until it comes to the time to draw a state pension. When told they are not entitled to one, thats when they will regret not working legally.
> CD


I think many people, when they get to retirement age don't regret not working legally, but wish they had been _*able*_ to. And a great deal of pensioners find living on their pension difficult or impossible.


----------



## mrypg9

jimenato said:


> Well I have just started my own business and my accountant tells me that it will cost 400€ per month per employee (at least) in payments to the government. She will charge me 100€ to set up each employee's payroll and 20€ per month per employee to process their payroll.
> 
> I will therefore not be employing anyone.
> 
> Autonomo social security payment is 270€ per month mas o menos and remember you have to pay it however much you earn. This does not encourage people to go legal. I can quite understand the person who teaches pottery two days per week, the person who grooms about three dogs per week and the person who trades on every car boot sale they can find working in the black.
> 
> It's not right of course and I wouldn't do it myself - but I can understand it.



Understandable....yes, from a purely personal selfish point of view....but self-defeating in the medium to long term, perhaps?
If any Governmrent can't collect the revenue it needs then either essential services won't be delivered or taxes will rise even higher.
But it is foolish for any Government to make it prohibitively expensive to take on employees.
Can we learn from Sweden, Denmark and Norway which are fairly prosperous high wage, high tax societies with high levels of social provision?


----------



## xabiaxica

mrypg9 said:


> Understandable....yes, from a purely personal selfish point of view....but self-defeating in the medium to long term, perhaps?
> If any Governmrent can't collect the revenue it needs then either essential services won't be delivered or taxes will rise even higher.
> But it is foolish for any Government to make it prohibitively expensive to take on employees.
> Can we learn from Sweden, Denmark and Norway which are fairly prosperous high wage, high tax societies with high levels of social provision?


but if that person is earning maybe only 300 euros a month - where does that leave them??


----------



## jimenato

mrypg9 said:


> Understandable....yes, from a purely personal selfish point of view....but self-defeating in the medium to long term, perhaps?
> If any Governmrent can't collect the revenue it needs then either essential services won't be delivered or taxes will rise even higher.
> But it is foolish for any Government to make it prohibitively expensive to take on employees.
> Can we learn from Sweden, Denmark and Norway which are fairly prosperous high wage, high tax societies with high levels of social provision?


All understood. The only alternative right now for the three (real-ish) people I mentioned above is not to do anything.


----------



## jimenato

xabiachica said:


> but if that person is earning maybe only 300 euros a month - where does that leave them??


Yes. Surely if the tax burden were changed from standing charges to charges based on income more people would comply? Most of the people I know who work in the black would _love_ to pay tax.

My personal favourite for taxation is to reduce income tax and social security and load it on VAT/IVA but that's a different subject.


----------



## gus-lopez

jimenato said:


> Yes. Surely if the tax burden were changed from standing charges to charges based on income more people would comply? Most of the people I know who work in the black would _love_ to pay tax.
> 
> My personal favourite for taxation is to reduce income tax and social security and load it on VAT/IVA but that's a different subject.


The problem withe putting it on the IVA /vat is that anybody who is autonomo or a business wouldn't be paying anything as they can reclaim it all ( apart from food ). It's only the general public that would be paying.

If the soc. sec. payment of c. 270€ a month was brought down to 100€ , they 'd get more income as more people would register. It's far better to have 100 people paying 100€'s than 5 people paying 270€'s , which is basically the situation you've got now. Of all the spaniards I know that are registered autonomo, I'd say that only 50% ( if that ! ) goes through the books.


----------



## mrypg9

jimenato said:


> All understood. The only alternative right now for the three (real-ish) people I mentioned above is not to do anything.


To apply a flat rate is stupid beyond belief. So that needs to be reviewed as a matter of urgency as well as the rigid labour laws which make it so difficult to shed employees who are incompetent or incapable because of some physical disability or when a business is in a period of downturn.


----------



## mrypg9

xabiachica said:


> but if that person is earning maybe only 300 euros a month - where does that leave them??



Surely such a person would not only be tax exempt but should be in receipt of some form of tax credit.
How can anyone survive on 300 euros a month


----------



## jimenato

mrypg9 said:


> Surely such a person would not only be tax exempt but should be in receipt of some form of tax credit.
> How can anyone survive on 300 euros a month


Interesting point. The people I am talking about are supplementing pensions or other savings income, own their own houses and live frugally so have minimum outgoings, and/or have working husbands. I suppose they should be paying autonomo?

Anyway even if you earn 250 Euros per week, 270 Euros is a lot to pay out in a month.


----------



## mrypg9

jimenato said:


> Interesting point. The people I am talking about are supplementing pensions or other savings income, own their own houses and live frugally so have minimum outgoings, and/or have working husbands. I suppose they should be paying autonomo?
> 
> Anyway even if you earn 250 Euros per week, 270 Euros is a lot to pay out in a month.



Agreed. But surely autonomo should be graduated??
Do tax credits exist in Spain? I mean of the UK Working Family Tax Credit kind....
You would hasve to live _very _frugally on that income.....


----------



## jimenato

mrypg9 said:


> Agreed. But surely autonomo should be graduated??
> (


Surely yes! It isn't in the UK but it is very low - did someone say £12 per week? Then income tax comes into play which is (naturally) related to income. I guess that the expat black sector is probably tiny compared to the Spanish black sector but, if they reduced the flat rate payment and made tax more related to income I'm absolutely sure that more expats would join up. Actually I think that most expats in the black sector are pretty stressed about it.

There's probably a reason that things are the way they are that we can't see...


----------



## xabiaxica

mrypg9 said:


> Surely such a person would not only be tax exempt but should be in receipt of some form of tax credit.
> How can anyone survive on 300 euros a month


tax exempt maybe - but not from NI as far as I know


and yes, as Jimenato says, it could be just to supplement a pension, or as a second income for the family


----------



## xabiaxica

mrypg9 said:


> Agreed. But surely autonomo should be graduated??
> Do tax credits exist in Spain? I mean of the UK Working Family Tax Credit kind....
> You would hasve to live _very _frugally on that income.....


I couldn't find anything more recent, but it seems that in 2009 63% of the workforce in Spain were doing just that



> According to a study by the Treasury a total of 18.3 million Spaniards earn a gross monthly salary of less than 1,100 euros a month – 63% of the workforce. This is 5% more than the figures from the last study carried out in 2006.



News from Spain: Average salary in Spain


& of course, many are living on even less now, with unemployment

& if they DO get PARO, that stops after 2 years


----------



## valencia-hombre

mrypg9 said:


> Agreed. But surely autonomo should be graduated??
> Do tax credits exist in Spain? I mean of the UK Working Family Tax Credit kind....
> You would hasve to live _very _frugally on that income.....



in my opinion national insurance in spain is very high a year ago i was paying over 250 a month as autonomo and its not graduated, it applies even if you earn only 1 cent.

when you see the contributions for employed as opposed to self employed u can begin to understand why there is so much black labour. a friend with a bar used to complain that the guy that come round selling olives and gherkins and other tapas foods would not give him invoice so he could not claim back the iva. i'd take a guess that guy was not paying ni / tax either. 

a couple of weeks ago it was on the front page of a free newspaper that a guy with a shop in valencia had not paid taxes or ni since 1994 and he was arrested.

a wholesaler i used to go to at the checkout asked me "you want to pay iva or no 
????" the first time he asked i could not believe what i was hearing....


its a way of life in spain.... everyone is fiddling everyone else


----------



## mrypg9

valencia-hombre said:


> in my opinion national insurance in spain is very high a year ago i was paying over 250 a month as autonomo and its not graduated, it applies even if you earn only 1 cent.
> 
> when you see the contributions for employed as opposed to self employed u can begin to understand why there is so much black labour. a friend with a bar used to complain that the guy that come round selling olives and gherkins and other tapas foods would not give him invoice so he could not claim back the iva. i'd take a guess that guy was not paying ni / tax either.
> 
> a couple of weeks ago it was on the front page of a free newspaper that a guy with a shop in valencia had not paid taxes or ni since 1994 and he was arrested.
> 
> a wholesaler i used to go to at the checkout asked me "you want to pay iva or no
> ????" the first time he asked i could not believe what i was hearing....
> 
> 
> its a way of life in spain.... everyone is fiddling everyone else


And will continue I guess until a Government - any Government - gets a grip on the ridiculous laws relating to employee job tenure and the way sector wage agreements are negotiated centrally between Unions and employers' groups.
I am beginning to think that this thread should be entitled 'Is the Rich World Dying?'
Fascinating piece in last weeks's 'Economist': ten years ago, 'rich' countries dominated the world economy contributing around two-thirds of global GDP. Since then that share has fallen to half and will be down to 40% by the next decade.
The emerging world is poised to take over as we decline. Our ageing populations and the economic stagnation of most rich countries is a harsh fact of life.
Maybe all the brickies, plasterers, beauticians and other would-be immigrants to Spain should look east, not south and start brushing up their Mandarin and Hindi....


----------



## nigele2

mrypg9 said:


> The emerging world is poised to take over as we decline.


Morning Mary. Not sure we should look at it as decline. Just the others catching up and sharing the ever increasing wealth that we can milk out of this planet 

Despite a few social issues my life is beyond the wildest dreams of my parents and their lives beyond the wildest dreams of their parents. And I'd swap fighting the second world war for a few social issues  

As for Spain as I have said before they need a revolution. Sadly the criminal rich spanish controlling classes are experts at managing resistance.

But if the spanish people don't get off their backsides then they will continue under the boot of the oppressor. I just wish they would look at France and realise people can make a difference 

ps. heavy frost last night in Hampshire. First of the year. Brrrrrrrrrrbut a lovely bright sunny day now


----------



## valencia-hombre

i think people here have dreams of the typical spanish earnings. A guy that works in a local pizza restuarant takeaway is paid 3.50 an hour thats almost half the legal minimum and nearly half the 250 someone in this forum refered to. Most of the adverts for work don't publicise the salary, perhaps because they are ashamed. I saw an advert recently on a spanish job web portal offering full time work as a clothes ironer in a dry cleaners. it specifically said planchera .. a girl .. the vacancy was not open to males. and the salary negotiable between 600-900 a month before deductions. Sadly, they'll be queing to apply for that vacancy


----------



## mrypg9

nigele2 said:


> Morning Mary. Not sure we should look at it as decline. Just the others catching up and sharing the ever increasing wealth that we can milk out of this planet
> 
> Despite a few social issues my life is beyond the wildest dreams of my parents and their lives beyond the wildest dreams of their parents. And I'd swap fighting the second world war for a few social issues
> 
> As for Spain as I have said before they need a revolution. Sadly the criminal rich spanish controlling classes are experts at managing resistance.
> 
> But if the spanish people don't get off their backsides then they will continue under the boot of the oppressor. I just wish they would look at France and realise people can make a difference
> 
> ps. heavy frost last night in Hampshire. First of the year. Brrrrrrrrrrbut a lovely bright sunny day now


Hola Nigel, que tal...

Great to hear from you again.
Yes, you are right about others sharing wealth. The Economist piece made that point too. Also spot on about how our lives have changed...as I said in an earlier post my widowed mum scrubbed floors for a living...I'm in Spain lounging by the pool (Sandra and our UK friends who are visiting actually swam earlier this morning..)....and my son lives in leafy Surrey and drives an Aston. 
Three generations...
Enjoy your pint of whatever....
But a heavy frost....


----------



## nigele2

valencia-hombre said:


> its a way of life in spain.... everyone is fiddling everyone else


Valencia hombre it is unbelievable and as you say certainly not isolated. Another example of just how broken spain is: My step daughter, an air hostess, was told to stay in Barcelona (she lives in Madrid) for 3 days beyond the 2 weeks previously demanded of her. However rather than them continuing to pay for her hotel she was given 20 Euros a day for board and keep. Of course complain and she would never work for them again. She's also been told that if after two years on contract she is offered a permanent position (Feb 2011) she must start on an entry salary of less that 1000 Es. OK it sounds bad but she doesn't get much more than that now (all before deductions). 

It's not just the government and the rich controllers but the spanish corporates as well. 

One slight good sign she was approached by a colleague to join a new union which is independent and not funded by the spanish government. A glimmer of hope perhaps


----------



## gus-lopez

nigele2 said:


> Valencia hombre it is unbelievable and as you say certainly not isolated. Another example of just how broken spain is: My step daughter, an air hostess, was told to stay in Barcelona (she lives in Madrid) for 3 days beyond the 2 weeks previously demanded of her. However rather than them continuing to pay for her hotel she was given 20 Euros a day for board and keep. Of course complain and she would never work for them again. She's also been told that if after two years on contract she is offered a permanent position (Feb 2011) she must start on an entry salary of less that 1000 Es. OK it sounds bad but she doesn't get much more than that now (all before deductions).
> 
> It's not just the government and the rich controllers but the spanish corporates as well.
> 
> One slight good sign she was approached by a colleague to join a new union which is independent and not funded by the spanish government. A glimmer of hope perhaps



It's not just the spanish firms either ! A friends wife applied for a job with Ryanair & was phoned & invited for an interview , the next day they phoned her back & said " we've just realised you live in spain ". " That salary is not applicable to you & would be 35% less , paid in euros " When she asked why the salary was less if you lived in spain she was told that the cost of living was less !


----------



## Alcalaina

gus-lopez said:


> It's not just the spanish firms either ! A friends wife applied for a job with Ryanair & was phoned & invited for an interview , the next day they phoned her back & said " we've just realised you live in spain ". " That salary is not applicable to you & would be 35% less , paid in euros " When she asked why the salary was less if you lived in spain she was told that the cost of living was less !


 Wouldn't it be nice if the cost of living actually was 35% less! But maybe that is compared with Ireland rather than the UK?

I think I'd rather scrounge from rubbish tips than work for Ryanair.


----------



## Alcalaina

nigele2 said:


> One slight good sign she was approached by a colleague to join a new union which is independent and not funded by the spanish government. A glimmer of hope perhaps


Do you know what that's called, by any chance?


----------



## mrypg9

gus-lopez said:


> It's not just the spanish firms either ! A friends wife applied for a job with Ryanair & was phoned & invited for an interview , the next day they phoned her back & said " we've just realised you live in spain ". " That salary is not applicable to you & would be 35% less , paid in euros " When she asked why the salary was less if you lived in spain she was told that the cost of living was less !


And yet at the first signs of autumn,when birds start migrating south,we get the 'I want to work in Spain , I am a brickie etc.' posts..........
Sometimes it's hard to believe that people can be so unaware of what the job situation here is like..


----------



## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> And yet at the first signs of autumn,when birds start migrating south,we get the 'I want to work in Spain , I am a brickie etc.' posts..........
> Sometimes it's hard to believe that people can be so unaware of what the job situation here is like..


........ or how cold and wet it gets!!!!

Jo xxx


----------



## xicoalc

jojo said:


> ........ or how cold and wet it gets!!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


Indeed - I got the old calor gas heaters out today and used them, it was freezing here!


----------



## xabiaxica

steve_in_spain said:


> Indeed - I got the old calor gas heaters out today and used them, it was freezing here!


it's not that cold yet


still sitting here withthe patio doors open


I _have_ got my nice warm fluffy socks on though!


----------



## Thader

No heating on yet, but my dog seems to wait longer in the mornings before asking to go out.
In the summer he had me up at seven. Now he doesn't move from his bed before 10
CD


----------



## xicoalc

xabiachica said:


> it's not that cold yet
> 
> 
> still sitting here withthe patio doors open
> 
> 
> I _have_ got my nice warm fluffy socks on though!


Well, in Xabia you are that little bit posher than here so you must get the warmth that extra couple of weeks 

Obviously it isn't cold cold yet (last winter we had the heating on literally 24/7 in the worst of it), but heating is on now because we certainly need something to take the edge off


----------



## Guest

11 degrees at 11 pm up here. We were up on top of a mountain this afternoon/evening and I froze with the wind. Time to go shopping for a new coat!!!


----------



## mrypg9

Swam in our pool yesterday (Sunday) afternoon. The wall thermometer showed 40C+.
Water temperature was 24C.


----------



## Alcalaina

Thader said:


> No heating on yet, but my dog seems to wait longer in the mornings before asking to go out.
> In the summer he had me up at seven. Now he doesn't move from his bed before 10
> CD


LOL, we have a cat like that - she has a special very loud miaow to get us up in the morning, time ranges from 7.30 in high summer to 10 am in midwinter!

The clocks go back on the 30th so they will get all confused.


----------



## jimenato

mrypg9 said:


> Swam in our pool yesterday (Sunday) afternoon. The wall thermometer showed 40C+.
> Water temperature was 24C.


Blimey!! Is your wall thermometer in the sun?


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Mrypg9 - I got a surprise this morning when I got in the car to go to work this morning. Ice on the windscreen for the first time this autumn! God, it's "only" mid October!!


----------



## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> Mrypg9 - I got a surprise this morning when I got in the car to go to work this morning. Ice on the windscreen for the first time this autumn! God, it's "only" mid October!!


only 10 degrees when I got up this morning - that really is chilly for mid October!


ice is a rarity here - thankfully


----------

