# Question for people who are living in the UK



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

This is a genuine question - I'm not trying to prove a point - for people who are living in the UK - people like Jojo, or newbies who are asking about moving to Spain.
Is there any news on tv, radio or newspapers about what is happening in Spain ie more than 5 million unemployed, cuts in health and education, Spaniards emigrating to look for work, more than 50% of the under 25's without work etc etc? Or is it just largely ignored?
I'm just wondering why people are still asking about moving to Spain with family in tow to look for work, especially people with no qualifications and no language skills. There has to be a reason more than bad weather.


----------



## Wannabe Expat (May 2, 2012)

*Reasons for moving to Spain!*



Pesky Wesky said:


> This is a genuine question - I'm not trying to prove a point - for people who are living in the UK - people like Jojo, or newbies who are asking about moving to Spain.
> Is there any news on tv, radio or newspapers about what is happening in Spain ie more than 5 million unemployed, cuts in health and education, Spaniards emigrating to look for work, more than 50% of the under 25's without work etc etc? Or is it just largely ignored?
> I'm just wondering why people are still asking about moving to Spain with family in tow to look for work, especially people with no qualifications and no language skills. There has to be a reason more than bad weather.



The weather sure doesn't help! It's rained every day since I got back from Oliva about a month ago and this week we're back to 8-9C. There is in fact quite a lot of coverage about the unemployment in Spain on the TV and in newspapers as well as online, but obviously the people who need jobs who are still thinking of moving to Spain don't see them. 

I think people are attracted (after the weather of course) by the sun, sea and the sand, the laid back lifestyle, the cheap vino and the cheap eating out. I would think there's less anti-social behaviour problems in Spain when compared to the UK as well. Also I think older people are shown more respect in countries like Spain and Italy than here in the UK and the cost of living does still seem cheap to me in Spain if you take a typically Spanish town irather than an ex-pat enclave on the Costa del Sol


----------



## Muddy (Jan 14, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> This is a genuine question - I'm not trying to prove a point - for people who are living in the UK - people like Jojo, or newbies who are asking about moving to Spain.
> Is there any news on tv, radio or newspapers about what is happening in Spain ie more than 5 million unemployed, cuts in health and education, Spaniards emigrating to look for work, more than 50% of the under 25's without work etc etc? Or is it just largely ignored?
> I'm just wondering why people are still asking about moving to Spain with family in tow to look for work, especially people with no qualifications and no language skills. There has to be a reason more than bad weather.


Hi there
Well it is a good question considering the situation in Spain.
I think there is so much bad news around in Europe as far as the news channels go maybe Spain doesn't get as much of a mention as you might expect!
Greece keeps steeling the limelight so to speak these days and for some time. Every 15 mins it gets a mention. Right now it seems to be all the news channels are talking about.
Spain does get a mention but I've seen annalists just last week when interviewed saying Spain isn't anywhere in such a bad spot as Greece is.
I agree with that but it depends on your point of view and situation.
Me I still want to move to Spain as I've been thinking and looking for such a long time. So the economic mess isn't going to make me change my plans hopefully.
Online news is covering Spain better think, but you still have to look for it. There are more football stories I can see right now even than Spain and Greece together!! That's the news for you..! Doom, gloom and football, and IMO not very balanced across a wider field of subjects.

It is surprising to see the odd question when people seem not to have done much news watching regarding jobs in Spain, like setting up a bar etc!
I personally plan to leave enough cash in the bank so I can survive for a few years, helpfully setup my own business which I've done in the UK before.
I think all the doom and gloom in the UK news can just make you think (I want out) and ASAP! So perhaps this and the lure of sun and sand will be enough for some to take a very big risk!

To recap, I've seen the news mention about the Spanish bonds, just over 6% now which made more of a splash before when it was approaching 6%!!
Unemployment has been mentioned also. But like I said Greece keeps getting much more focus as it looks more likely to default as it looks none of the parties can agree. That means time has pretty much run out for them to get the next load of wonga!


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

The 'gloom and doom ' in the UK is nothing like that in Spain. UK unemployment at under 9%, Spanish unemployment at 25%, over 34% in some areas...no comparison.
BBC 2 Newsnight and the quality press frequently run pieces about the Spanish economic meltdown.
There was an hour-long programme on BBC 4 Radio 4 this morning.
Most serious analysts will report that Spain is in a very bad state indeed.


----------



## Claire la richarde (Jul 6, 2009)

I think it depends on what news media you read or watch. I'm a Guardian reader (don't everybody start) and the Guardian/Observer have carried plenty of stories about the economic situation in Spain. The Sun and the Mirror, very few. And, of course, there are people who only read the Daily Star...

Also, there are people who deliberately don't watch the news on telly, "Oh, no, it's too depressing", and change channels when a news programme comes on - and that's if they're not permanently tuned to channels that don't carry news programmes at all. So they don't see those few stories on the main channels' news programmes about the Spanish economy.

I wonder, too, whether there's an element of swallowing the message, much promulgated by the Government here, that everyone who's unemployed is just too lazy to go and get a job. So people who have this belief, even if they know there are millions of people jobless in Spain, may well believe that they can jack in their job in the UK and go and get one in Spain because they're "hard-working" and "willing to turn their hand to anything", unlike the workshy unemployed.


----------



## Wannabe Expat (May 2, 2012)

Claire la richarde said:


> I think it depends on what news media you read or watch. I'm a Guardian reader (don't everybody start) and the Guardian/Observer have carried plenty of stories about the economic situation in Spain. The Sun and the Mirror, very few. And, of course, there are people who only read the Daily Star...
> 
> Also, there are people who deliberately don't watch the news on telly, "Oh, no, it's too depressing", and change channels when a news programme comes on - and that's if they're not permanently tuned to channels that don't carry news programmes at all. So they don't see those few stories on the main channels' news programmes about the Spanish economy.
> 
> I wonder, too, whether there's an element of swallowing the message, much promulgated by the Government here, that everyone who's unemployed is just too lazy to go and get a job. So people who have this belief, even if they know there are millions of people jobless in Spain, may well believe that they can jack in their job in the UK and go and get one in Spain because they're "hard-working" and "willing to turn their hand to anything", unlike the workshy unemployed.




Hi Claire

I think there's a lot of truth in your post.


----------



## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

It is mentioned but not really front page news. For a lot its the 'dream' of working a few hours then back to the villa and sipping a few pinucoolarders or dackareees, as Del would say. Not reality is it.

To be honest why would anyone without specific skills/qualifications, speak Spanish and have a firm job want to move to Spain for anyway, certainly those with children what do they think Harry and Joan will do in the future. A move to an English speaking country yes, go for it but Spain, Portugal etc? Only when the pension kicks in IMHO.


----------



## Seb* (Mar 22, 2009)

I will let you know in two weeks :clap2:


As mentioned before I think it really depends on the media you consume. I had a quick look at the ITV news last night and there was nothing about the European economy. BBC 1 news cover more, but as mentioned before Greece seems to get a lot of time at the moment.

So the "more shallow" media seems to ignore the European economy as much as possible. The other thing is the bad state of the UK economy gets totally exaggerated IMHO. If you read some papers you might think the UK is heading straight towards a depression and half the population is unemployed. Compared to many other countries the UK is in a rather good position and there is a good chance of growth in the near future, but people get told the opposite.


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Well, that's been interesting reading for me anyway, so thanks to those of you who have posted.
It's amazing how incorrect national images last and last. Just when is the picture of everything British being run well and efficiently (British Rail??), British politeness and reserve (ever been to Magaluf, Ibiza or Benidorm at 3:00am??) going to hit reality??
Well, the same goes for Spain. Sun, sea and sangria just doesn't do it anymore. Things change and my goodness how things have changed in Spain, but not everyone's keeping up with it. 
As people have mentioned here, my impression is that news about Spain is not front page in the UK, so you might have to search for it, but if you're interested, you can find it. So... if you'r e thinking of coming to Spain search Google or a variety of newspapers for everything to do with Spain before even entertaining the idea of moving.


----------



## Lucie123 (Dec 7, 2011)

Been alot on the news the last few weeks. Not much before that. I guess i could be sterotypical and say the sort of ppl who still want to move and need work etc dont get that sort of news in the press they watch and read. ie sun etc


----------



## calahonda (Jun 12, 2010)

It may sound like a cliche but the weather is a huge draw for me and many others. Since I moved back to the UK we haven't had any decent weather to speak of, its just cold and wet and everyone just stays indoors. Its really quite depressing. As you have been living in Spain for the last 17 years you wont have experienced the numbing cold for months on end, a few days of bright weather then back to clound and rain. 
You take it for granted waking up and seeing the sun, feeling its warmth. 
Plus if you are struggling to make it happen in the UK, why not give it a go and move to Spain, there are opertunities like everywhere, but that golden disc in the sky makes all the difference to me. People are happier, frendlier and more outgoing. 
I don't think people are coming to Spain with their eyes shut, just want to try somewhere new. Believe me there are parts of the UK with worst unemployment figures than Spain, and its cold and miserable.......Its a no-brainer really.


----------



## Lucie123 (Dec 7, 2011)

Yeah i agree re the weather. it is very depressing. dark gloom day after day and then when you do get some half decent weather you cant go anywhere cause the countries so overpopulated you are continually stuck in traffic and everywheres packed. even on a crap day my main city park is full of cars and dont even bother trying on a half decent weekend

i think alot of people think if they have nothing to lose in the uk then why not give it a go. if it doesnt work you come back here and live off benefits etc. which is what they are probably doing now. theres alot of desperate people


----------



## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

Clearly as the above posts illustrate the weather is an integral part of wanting to move over here. However, I wanted to say on this thread that it perhaps isn't quite the doom and gloom everywhere in Spain. I know others live in the area I live in but honestly, go to Mercadona, Eroski, Supersol etc and you really wouldn't think there was a problem. The shopping centres are always packed and people are leaving with bags and bags of shopping. And they aren't getting it all on credit which is really difficult to get. I teach here and all of the parents I know have full time jobs and they have hope for their kids futures (albeit they recognise they need to be able to speak English when it comes to getting a job). Of course and just as in UK it is different in different regions but down here in the Eastern bit of Andalucia it isn't all doom and gloom. My daughter, who lives in UK, is really struggling to find work - there isn't any and she lives in London. There is a huge increase in street crime, regardless of Government figures, and she doesn't feel safe going out after dark (and believe me this is a kid (23) who is pretty streetwise), she hates the weather, the culture of not being able to do anything without being questioned etc etc etc. Haqving said that she still loves UK and isn't up for leaving yet (perhaps because she can come visit and have some good weather an no problems for a few weeks whenever she needs it). Yes things are bad in Spain and in some areas absolutely dreadful, but just like everywhere else in the world, it isn't happening absolutely everywhere. Thought I'd mention it. Sorry if I cause any offence (sic).


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

calahonda said:


> It may sound like a cliche but the weather is a huge draw for me and many others. Since I moved back to the UK we haven't had any decent weather to speak of, its just cold and wet and everyone just stays indoors. Its really quite depressing. As you have been living in Spain for the last 17 years you wont have experienced the numbing cold for months on end, a few days of bright weather then back to clound and rain.
> You take it for granted waking up and seeing the sun, feeling its warmth.
> Plus if you are struggling to make it happen in the UK, why not give it a go and move to Spain, there are opertunities like everywhere, but that golden disc in the sky makes all the difference to me. People are happier, frendlier and more outgoing.
> I don't think people are coming to Spain with their eyes shut, just want to try somewhere new. Believe me there are parts of the UK with worst unemployment figures than Spain, and its cold and miserable.......Its a no-brainer really.


18 actually now, I have to change the thingy!
I do still appreciate the better weather here and I do realise it raises my quality of life. I would find it hard to cope in England now, but not only for the weather. The people, the attitudes towards one another, the grumpiness and grottiness and dinginess that I see when I go back.
But that's me and it's another thing. 
So the weather issue is something I understand - to a certain extent, but unless you suffer from SAD, _*really*_ suffer from it I mean it's not a strong enough basis to build a life in another country I don't think.
When you say


> if you are struggling to make it happen in the UK, why not give it a go and move to Spain, there are opertunities like everywhere,


This is where people are making a mistake, time and time again IMO, and I know a few people here who'd agree with me. It's much tougher to make a go of it in a place where you don't speak the language and where the culture and customs are different, where you don't have friends and family around you, where there are no benefits paid into your account every month and where very likely (but not with 100% assurance admitedly) you will not find work and you will have to deal with money/family/possibly health problems arising from this. 

All this for a bit of sun because you didn't find out the real story before you decided to upsticks? 

And where are the opportunities everywhere in Spain? 

And where is unemployment as bad in the UK as in Spain's Andalucia at 35%? 

This from April 2012









PS - I don't mean *you*, I mean British people in general


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Pesky Wesky said:


> This is a genuine question - I'm not trying to prove a point - for people who are living in the UK - people like Jojo, or newbies who are asking about moving to Spain.
> Is there any news on tv, radio or newspapers about what is happening in Spain ie more than 5 million unemployed, cuts in health and education, Spaniards emigrating to look for work, more than 50% of the under 25's without work etc etc? Or is it just largely ignored?
> I'm just wondering why people are still asking about moving to Spain with family in tow to look for work, especially people with no qualifications and no language skills. There has to be a reason more than bad weather.


The UK media, news etc is so rapped up in its own doom and gloom, that it doesnt really get involved in Spain, other than the odd mention of strikes or Europe is in a financial mess. But the British public are used to it and I'm sure are so bogged down with it all (me included) Then theres the weather, drought, floods, violence, yobs, benefit cheats, PC stuff, price rises, job losses.... Around them everyone is miserable and stressed, they just want to get out. 

Then there is that memory of the care free, sunny holiday in Spain. Wouldnt it be nice to just get the hell out of the miserable UK and open a bar/get a job in Spain- nothing fancy, just enough to live on, lots of sunshine, vino, relaxing by the pool.

Jo xxx


----------



## Seb* (Mar 22, 2009)

calahonda said:


> Plus if you are struggling to make it happen in the UK, why not give it a go and move to Spain, there are opertunities like everywhere, but that golden disc in the sky makes all the difference to me.


Sorry to be the party pooper, but if you can't make it in the UK there is no chance in hell you can make it in Spain under current conditions. What is going on in people's minds? If you can't find work in the UK with a relatively low unemployment rate, what makes you think you can find something in Spain? BTW: "you" like people in general, no reference to any posters 

And just my personal experience with the weather after three years: the weather is nice several months of the year. But you know, it rains in Spain as well ... actually the first year we've been here we had non-stop rain for like 6 weeks and when I say non-stop I mean non-stop. Literally it can rain for weeks without a break. Ah yeah don't forget the massive winds that messed up our fencing a lot lol.
There are some lovely months, but the summers can get really hot. Working 8-12 hours a day with temperatures of up to 40º and high humidity is no fun. We ended up not leaving the house whenever we could during the high summer time and had to hide in our airconned room.
Then there are the really cold and wet winters you have to suffer, cause most homes are not insulated and not many have decent heating. Heating is expensive and not very efficient down here.
Right now is a lovely time of the year, 25-28º and sunshine - it's great. Soon it will get really hot and believe me working in that heat is tough! Mañana and siestas don't really exist anymore - there goes the dream of the laid back lifestyle - it's just not feasable anymore 

I know my ramblings are not helping people who have set their minds on coming down here and want to live the dream - they have to experience it themselves  Just some warning words, sunshine is not everything and it does not turn a sucky existence into something great


----------



## calahonda (Jun 12, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> 18 actually now, I have to change the thingy!
> I do still appreciate the better weather here and I do realise it raises my quality of life. I would find it hard to cope in England now, but not only for the weather. The people, the attitudes towards one another, the grumpiness and grottiness and dinginess that I see when I go back.
> But that's me and it's another thing.
> So the weather issue is something I understand - to a certain extent, but unless you suffer from SAD, _*really*_ suffer from it I mean it's not a strong enough basis to build a life in another country I don't think.
> ...


Haha, so lets recap.....what you don't like about the UK is the rubbish weather, people all have poor attitudes, they are grumpy and the place is grotty and dingy. Hmmm, why would people want to leave ???
As for your comments about language etc, in the CDS ? More a dialect problem down there, scouse, cockney, Brummy...take your pick. I agree there customs are not quite what I'd expected, but you will get used to them !! haha......really, if I hadn't lived there before you would certainly put me off. I have noticed that the people who have lived in Spain the longest are the worst for putting people off. You love the country, and have made a go of it, why can't they ???


----------



## Lucie123 (Dec 7, 2011)

Personally i dont think trying to put a downer on spanish weather is really gonna work with people living in the uk and putting up with the weather here its funny if nothing else. of course its not dry and sunny all the time. but its a thousands time better than the uk and the non excistant summers we have had for the last five years and the freezing winters. ive just been working tonight outside im sat here freezing even though i had my thermals on hat and gloves. it was cold and raining and i was stood in one spot for five hrs. im now sat here with two hotwater bottles trying to defrost. it wont be much different in the next couple of months either.


----------



## calahonda (Jun 12, 2010)

Seb* said:


> Sorry to be the party pooper, but if you can't make it in the UK there is no chance in hell you can make it in Spain under current conditions. What is going on in people's minds? If you can't find work in the UK with a relatively low unemployment rate, what makes you think you can find something in Spain? BTW: "you" like people in general, no reference to any posters
> 
> And just my personal experience with the weather after three years: the weather is nice several months of the year. But you know, it rains in Spain as well ... actually the first year we've been here we had non-stop rain for like 6 weeks and when I say non-stop I mean non-stop. Literally it can rain for weeks without a break. Ah yeah don't forget the massive winds that messed up our fencing a lot lol.
> There are some lovely months, but the summers can get really hot. Working 8-12 hours a day with temperatures of up to 40º and high humidity is no fun. We ended up not leaving the house whenever we could during the high summer time and had to hide in our airconned room.
> ...


Hi Seb, my comment about making it happen in Spain as opposed to the UK has been taken a bit too literally. Just making ends meet in the UK can be a bit grim, but I know lots of people who make ends meet but have great outdoor lives in Spain, make the most of the beach, being outdoors. Its a different lifestyle. I don't mean people turn up and hardly work and somehow get a great life style, we are talking about sensible people who realise they will have to work. Maybe they try something completely new which they wouldn't in the UK. 
I don't think anyone will decide to move to Spain on anything I've said, but it is a brilliant country to live in given the right area and a bit of luck. Can't understand why everyone is so down on others doing what they have already done ?


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

calahonda said:


> Haha, so lets recap.....what you don't like about the UK is the rubbish weather, people all have poor attitudes, they are grumpy and the place is grotty and dingy. Hmmm, why would people want to leave ???
> As for your comments about language etc, in the CDS ? More a dialect problem down there, scouse, cockney, Brummy...take your pick. I agree there customs are not quite what I'd expected, but you will get used to them !! haha......really, if I hadn't lived there before you would certainly put me off. I have noticed that the people who have lived in Spain the longest are the worst for putting people off. You love the country, and have made a go of it, why can't they ???


Because that was then and this is *now*!!!

Because I came with a job to go to, even then.

Because I learnt the language 

Because I never relied on the Brits in Spain for my living, as many people who post on here wanting to move want to do

But above all because of Spain now.

My aim is NOT to put people off coming. Why would it worry me if people I have never met come to Spain or not? I gain nothing from it - nothing.

I merely, from the experience I have from living, working and forming a family here think I can pass on an idea of what Spain is living through now, what it means to come to Spain in 2012, not 1980 something when I came here.

Most of my posts about this kind of thing are in response to people asking for advice. This isn't - it's a thread I opened myself.

This my reply to another poster who also though we were trying to "burst people's bubbles"
_As far as bursting people's bubbles I would advise you to think for a moment about that. Why do you imagine we would do that? What possible interest could a (large) group of foreigners have for putting off other foreigners? There might be one weird, twisted old git on here who has a ulterior motive behind advising immigrants to stay at home, but so many of us??? People of all ages, economic backgrounds, politics. From completely different work profiles, areas of the UK and even musical tastes?? Just why would we do that?? To many it would be advantageous to have more Brits here. More people to install satellite dishes for, to do their gardening for and to serve beer to.

Finally, many who are thinking of coming to Spain are doing it to find work. _ _*Now why in the world would you come from a country of 8.4% unemployment to a country of over 20% unemployment* with in most cases no or rudimentary Spanish, unrecognised or no qualifications *and expect to find a job ?*. You say that people know about the unemployment in Spain and I would again say read the posts. Many, not some, *many *people are genuinely surprised to find that unemployment is higher in Spain, that they will not have health care until they've paid in to the system, that the *Spanish, qualified and unqualified, are going to the UK for work *etc. Another shocker is that there are several languages in Spain! Many many people who are in the first stages of making a move frankly have no idea about Spain at all, so don't judge the posts by what you know. Think about the original poster.

_ _ ...a lot of people are desperately looking for better opportunities, a better life, a better future for themselves and their families. How many would make it in today's Spain?

Yes, this is negative. I live here and have lived here for a very long time. I'm worried about my future with a health service that's shrinking, education cuts and businesses closing down left right and centre, and if people ask I will keep telling them the same, as it happens to be the truth. 

_See the whole thread herehttp://www.expatforum.com/expats/la-tasca/104570-forum-politics.html#post726233

However if you are confident you're not going to muck up your life nor that of the people around you by making the move, and think you can be happy and successful here, come on down - Spain could do with your money! 

BTW I live here for a number of different reasons, but I don't think I live in Spain because I don't like certain things in the UK.


----------



## calahonda (Jun 12, 2010)

Whats wrong with relying on your fellow countrymen ?? You say Brits like its a dirty word? Got your number, in your affluent area....haha

Not everyone moves to Spain with no job, or prospects. Some of us are professional people who want to get out of the UK to enjoy life elsewhere.


----------



## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

calahonda said:


> Whats wrong with relying on your fellow countrymen ?? You say Brits like its a dirty word? Got your number, in your affluent area....haha
> 
> Not everyone moves to Spain with no job, or prospects. Some of us are *professional people* who want to get out of the UK to enjoy life elsewhere.


And as a professional you may well have a good contracted, well paid job? Sadly most who come here to tips on moving are not. Many lack skills, qualifications and the language ability that will get them stable long term employment. Too many of the "I can turn my hand to anything" come along. Sadly, your fellow countrymen often can't afford to employ folks just because they are brits these days; those days are over.

I'm off on my travels shortly, a change of plans and I'm going back to Cyprus for a reccee  but will be going to Gran Canaria too  Its my time to decide where to live half the year, wish me luck.


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

why wouldn't you want to leave cold rainy dismal UK??



but Spain isn't the right place to be heading _*right now*_ if you need to earn a living

if you can't get work - try Germany - that's what the unemployed Spanish are doing

if you want sun - try Australia - they also have lower unemployment

or Florida - sun, lower unemployment & no language issues - or you can even brush up on your Spanish there




oh wait - the US & Aus won't have you.......you don't have the required skills or anything to offer the country 




disclaimer.....that's a generic 'you' - no-one in particular :rolleyes2:


if you have a pension, or any income from outside Spain, or that doesn't rely on Spain - then *COME - PLEASE COME* Spain needs you!!

it's a great place to live - just not to find work


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

calahonda said:


> Whats wrong with relying on your fellow countrymen ?? You say Brits like its a dirty word? Got your number, in your affluent area....haha??? Me?
> 
> Not everyone moves to Spain with no job, or prospects. Some of us are professional people who want to get out of the UK to enjoy life elsewhere.


Hahaha!!

I have no problem with my fellow Brits, and in fact know very few here, but plenty of other other people, especially in the south do - but let them explain!

What's wrong with relying on Brits is that it's a moving market, which by reading posts in the forum you'll find out is now a *shrinking* market. So, it's not even a stable number of people. It's going down because many people are leaving Spain.

Also, if you're only prepared by your language skills and knowledge of the area/ market to deal with Brits (not a dirty word I hasten to add) then you're leaving out rather a lot of other people who live in Spain called the Spanish.

You can be as professional as you like, but if you don't know Spanish you're limited. If you're an electrician, nurse, accountant, care worker, state school teacher, architect... you'll need to either retrain, sit exams here or get qualifications recognised here - not impossible, but something that needs to be known and certainly not easy.

Most comments however are for people who don't have any real skills to offer Spain. Like I say, if people want to come over who am I to say no, but they should at least have the opportunity to make an informed choice, and it's very clear that many of first time posters don't have a clue about moving abroad let alone Spain. 

Some people actually thank you for your help too!


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

calahonda said:


> Whats wrong with relying on your fellow countrymen ?? You say Brits like its a dirty word? Got your number, in your affluent area....haha
> 
> Not everyone moves to Spain with no job, or prospects. Some of us are professional people who want to get out of the UK to enjoy life elsewhere.


 True, but many Brits moved to Spain to re invent themselves and to earn easy money. They've done it to themselves. When I first moved to Spain it wasnt long before I discovered for myself that to have a British plumber, gardener, poolman would cost me three times more than the Spanish equivalent. I saw very quickly that the British tradesmen very often would charge "British rates" and often didnt have a clue. The British plumber I had the misfortune of using was a joke, eventho he claimed to have been in Spain 20 years and knew what he was doing. As for the British pool company - 3000€ for four days work v Spanish pool company who charged 200€ for two days work and did a blinding job.

So no theres nothing wrong with relying on your fellow country man as long as you can know that they're on your side and not just trying to make a quick €, which many seem to. So its the knowing if they're ok or not thats the risk and it seems the majority arent

Jo xxx


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

calahonda said:


> Plus if you are struggling to make it happen in the UK, why not give it a go and move to Spain, there are opertunities like everywhere, but that golden disc in the sky makes all the difference to me.


Just remember, if you are struggling in the UK, then you can turn to income support, job seekrs allowance, various types of tax credits, you'll have options regards paying gas, electricity, child allowance, free helathcare..........

If you struggle in Spain and YOU WILL if you have in the UK (even if you were doing well in the UK), you'll have nothing, no financial or pastoral help, no sympathy, no anything. 

Spain isnt somewhere you can just go to and make your own way, they have alot of the same rules as the uk and alot of other rules and regulations. The red tape can be frightening and difficult to understand. I'm sure alot of folk go to Spain cos they think they can escape rules, taxes, etc. and live free from the hassle in the UK - its all there in Spain too you know!!

The sun in Spain is too hot to work, it slows everything down and doesnt pay bills. The weather in the winter is harsh, it is cold, wet, and windy alot of the time.

I love Spain and if it were easy to relocate I wouldnt be in the UK and my husband wouldnt have spent our time in Spain commuting to the UK to work

Jo xxx


----------



## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

People knock arguments about the difference in weather between Britain and Spain, but it is a very important factor because, as has been pointed out, in both countries it affects our daily lives.

In Spain, it can get very, very hot and, as Jo has pointed out, it slows everything down, frustratingly so.
But overall, the climate in Spain is a much healthier one than in the UK.

In the UK, the skies are grey most of the year and cold, damp and changeable conditions bring with them colds, flue and other nasties.
And then there's depression from lack of Sun, which is a real factor (I know as I suffer from it).

When you are struggling to make a living in the UK and your kids are bringing home constant colds and bugs from school, and you watch the News (which of course emphasises problems with the _British_ economy and _British_ life in general), it is only natural to think that life must be better in a warmer climate, whatever the hardships. After all, you are already facing hardships every day in the UK and you see your kids as having little future there, so what have you got to lose?

Its a blinkered view, but I understand it completely.

And then there's the 'I am a Brit, I will be protected' attitude.
If things go wrong, surely there will be someone or something to help you out?
Not so, but that attitude is deep among most Brits.

As Jo and others have pointed out, if you are struggling in the UK, then you will struggle in Spain, and much more.
And you will have no support from the Spanish State, or for that matter, from friends and family you left in the UK, because they will be struggling too.

But again... if you have nothing to lose....

I actually blame the 'entrepreneurial spirit' encouraged in all of us from the 70s and particularly the 80s.
As has been mentioned already. There is still the attitude that there must be something wrong with people who are long term unemployed. Perhaps they simply do not have that entrepreneurial spirit we should all have?
When you look at the lack of work, you should realise that this is not the case.
But the idea is still embedded deep within our psyche....

Add all this together, and it really doesn't matter to some people what they watch on TV or read in the Newspapers (and they will be selective anyway), because their minds have already been made up.


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Solwriter said:


> Add all this together, and it really doesn't matter to some people what they watch on TV or read in the Newspapers (and they will be selective anyway), because their minds have already been made up.


Well that's certainly true in 85% of the cases. Most people come to forums it seems to have what they "know" confirmed - nothing more.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

calahonda said:


> Whats wrong with relying on your fellow countrymen ?? You say Brits like its a dirty word? Got your number, in your affluent area....haha
> 
> Not everyone moves to Spain with no job, or prospects. Some of us are professional people who want to get out of the UK to enjoy life elsewhere.


And not everyone moves to Spain thinking they can rely on their fellow British immigrants if they fail to find their 'dream'.

I am a retired 'professional' and live in an affluent area. I didn't come to Spain after living elsewhere in Europe to rely on my 'fellow countrymen and - presumably women) many of whom I wouldn't have considered as friends or acquaintances in the UK -that may sound a tad snobbish, take it as you will.

Some wannabe British immigrants, judging from posts here, could scarcely survive a move from Birmingham to Basingstoke, so restricted and limited are they in the skills, qualificatioins and command of their own language let alone Spanish. That may sound harsh but it is true. Of course there are many well-qualified professionals who leave the UK to work in posts in many countries including Spain.
But such people are *in demand....*and that is a huge difference. They are often sought-after by headhunters, can command huge salaries and have no problem finding employment anywhere in the world.

You simply cannot compare such people with the unskilled Brit who wants to move because it rains a lot back home.

There is also the point, a not inconsiderable one, of the morality of taking jobs here when almost six million Spaniards are without work. These unfortunates will not be in receipt of the comparatively generous state benefits received by the unemployed in the UK.

As for Brit being a dirty word...yes, in some quarters it is. Public behaviour by an admitted minority of Brits doesn't exactly impress Spaniards, other nationalities or their more fastidious fellow Brits. Far too many working on the black, cheating the Spanish state. 
Far too many 'plumbers', 'electricians', 'mechanics' and so on who have previously never held such jobs in the UK....my admittedly limited experience of such people has resulted in my using Spanish tradespeople and patronising Spanish enterprises wherever possible. I live in Spain, not Solihull.

I have to agree with the poster who said that if you can't make it in the UK, why assume the streets of Benidorm are paved with gold? 
Spain deserves more respect than to be treated like some twenty-first century Klondike.


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Interestingly I was just talking to my window cleaner. I said we came back from Spain and he said that he was hoping to move there as he'd had enough of the UK, blah, blah.... He had no idea (and I dont think he believed me), that in Spain you dont get benefits, child allowance social housing, automatic free health care. He even argued with me and simply refused to believe that if he had no money in Spain that he wouldnt be able to claim any benefits - he laughed and said that Spain is in Europe and had to look after all citizens. And that is the reason IMO, why Brits think that Spain is an easy option to enable them to escape the misery of the UK

Jo xxx


----------



## Muddy (Jan 14, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well that's certainly true in 85% of the cases. Most people come to forums it seems to have what they "know" confirmed - nothing more.


Pesky...
I think that's a bit of a sweeping statement you made there to be honest!
Maybe it's 95%, I don't know but some cold hard proof would be nice to see!
I'm not one of the 85%, I watch, I wait and if it looks and feel right for me and my situation I do it! That applies to whatever I do.

I was looking years ago to make a move to Spain but with property prices high at the time and then the arse dropping out of the property market here in the UK the timing always seems to be wrong. I hestitated and then the pound kept losing against the euro.
But I didn't just say what the hell and make the move anyway.
I sit, I wait and keep doing my research. Now that my situation is a bit better, my property price is a lot better than it was a few years ago, Spanish property prices are falling and the pound has risen against the euro, plus with Greece and its problems it will hopefully keep on rising for a while I hope (sorry Greece) this now makes it possible for me to put a move back on top of my list.

Of course with things being so bad in Spain it will always be a gamble to at least some degree, no matter how optimistic or careful one is.

I come to forums to fact-find, gain knowledge and a whole lot more. My mind isn't made up as such, it's not as simple as that for me and others I would assume and I hope!. You have to way up everything carefully.
Right now I would agree if someone doesn't have money to spare, no job waiting, no skills, kids in tow etc then it would be a very risky thing to leave for Spain.


----------



## Calas felices (Nov 29, 2007)

An interesting debate with some wonderful generalisations. 
_In the UK, the skies are grey most of the year and cold, damp and changeable conditions bring with them colds, flue and other nasties._
As far as I'm aware the UK covers from the north of Scotland to the Scilly Isles and I can assure you that the weather is not the same all year. This is a stupid as saying Spain is hot and sunny all the time. 

Surely the attraction of another country is that you believe it will be better than the part of the country you are presently in. Unfortunately there will never be an escape from those who emigrate in complete ignorance.


----------



## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

Calas felices said:


> An interesting debate with some wonderful generalisations.
> _In the UK, the skies are grey most of the year and cold, damp and changeable conditions bring with them colds, flue and other nasties._
> As far as I'm aware the UK covers from the north of Scotland to the Scilly Isles and I can assure you that the weather is not the same all year. This is a stupid as saying Spain is hot and sunny all the time.


Lol!
Of course it was a generalisation.
I was talking about how some people feel in the UK and how they compare this to what they think Spain will be like.

But having said that....

Every time I get off the plane when I visit the UK, the skies are greyer, even on a warm day. And taking an umbrella with me is a must.
Every time I visit the UK, I pick up a cold or bug from one of my kids which seems to have been waiting for my return.
Each time I am in the UK, my grand kids are off school or nursery with some bug or another. Even the doctors there talk about changeable weather having these effects. I'm not saying they are right - just saying how many people see this.

Oh yes, and when I am in the UK, I am usually in the 'sunny South'. 
And, if I had the chance, I would return to the UK permanently, despite all of its flaws. But that's a personal decision.



Calas felices said:


> Surely the attraction of another country is that you believe it will be better than the part of the country you are presently in.


Well yes, but in that case, why not simply look at another part of the country you are living in?



Calas felices said:


> Unfortunately there will never be an escape from those who emigrate in complete ignorance.


Agreed.


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

jojo said:


> Interestingly I was just talking to my window cleaner. I said we came back from Spain and he said that he was hoping to move there as he'd had enough of the UK, blah, blah.... He had no idea (and I dont think he believed me), that in Spain you dont get benefits, child allowance social housing, automatic free health care. He even argued with me and simply refused to believe that if he had no money in Spain that he wouldnt be able to claim any benefits - he laughed and said that Spain is in Europe and had to look after all citizens. And that is the reason IMO, why Brits think that Spain is an easy option to enable them to escape the misery of the UK
> 
> Jo xxx


I think I'd have thrown hin through the blummin' window!!


----------



## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

jojo said:


> Interestingly I was just talking to my window cleaner. I said we came back from Spain and he said that he was hoping to move there as he'd had enough of the UK, blah, blah.... He had no idea (and I dont think he believed me), that in Spain you dont get benefits, child allowance social housing, automatic free health care. He even argued with me and simply refused to believe that if he had no money in Spain that he wouldnt be able to claim any benefits - he laughed and said that Spain is in Europe and had to look after all citizens. And that is the reason IMO, why Brits think that Spain is an easy option to enable them to escape the misery of the UK
> 
> Jo xxx


That's why most of them shouldn't be allowed out of the country !


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Solwriter;785365
And then there's the 'I am a Brit said:


> I like your post but I think you have included an interesting point: first you say that many Brits feel they will be 'protected' wherever they go....I agree.
> But then you say that we place too much emphasis on encouraging an entrepreneurial spirit' - I also agree.
> 
> But these two characteristics are mutually contradictory and therein I feel lies at least part of our national malaise.
> ...


----------



## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> I like your post but I think you have included an interesting point: first you say that many Brits feel they will be 'protected' wherever they go....I agree.
> But then you say that we place too much emphasis on encouraging an entrepreneurial spirit' - I also agree.
> 
> But these two characteristics are mutually contradictory and therein I feel lies at least part of our national malaise.
> ...


Yes that is an interesting point!

But I blame this contradiction on Government and media propaganda as much as anything else, as well as changes of Government, all following similar lines, but using different messages to do so.

As British Citizens, we are all expected to believe in the Welfare State and cherish it as part of our heritage.

But when Governments need money, they decide to make cuts in public spending.
Now, because the Welfare State is sacrosanct, especially health care and pensions, they have to find ways of making these cuts more acceptable.

So, on the one hand, you get the many articles and documentaries about welfare scroungers and these pick on those who they feel will not be held in such high esteem by the man in the street.

And, on the other hand, you get the encouragement of the entrepreneurial spirit, with emphasis on rags to riches entrepreneurs and how anyone with the right attitude can do it. This was used to boost the economy with a glut of self starter businesses, and of course the ownership of property.

And somewhere along the way, we got to thinking that we all had the ability to make it, whatever our circumstances, and if we didn't, we were lazy and undeserving of help.

But, at the same time, we still had that belief that welfare rights from cradle to grave were our absolute right.

No wonder we are confused!

And I do agree with your assessment of what is required.
But cannot see the present Government being able to address this.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Solwriter said:


> Yes that is an interesting point!
> 
> But I blame this contradiction on Government and media propaganda as much as anything else, as well as changes of Government, all following similar lines, but using different messages to do so.
> 
> ...



Neither do I. I think they are unbelievably crass and incompetent. I'm glad Miliband is considering bringing Alistair Darling back into the Shadow Cabinet to deal with Vince Cable. Darling's economic measures actually lead to a resuming of growth before the current bunch of tossers took over and reversed the policies.

I'm not so sure that the welfare state is seen as 'sacrosanct'. It has been shown to be inefficient, costly and unresponsive to individual need. Governments cut public spending when they need money simply because the public sector is unproductive in the strictly economic sense - it consumes rather than produces revenue. Government gets its money from two main sources as you know: individual and corporate taxation and borrowing. If it borrows it must pay back. 
Critics of public spending cuts per se often fail to take this basic fact on board when they protest.

I would like to see the welfare state as a safety net not an entitlement. Private enterprise must be encouraged, within a framework of reasonable wage-levels and employment rights for workers, in order to fund that welfare state. You only have to look at the examples of socialist states to see how poor social services were. They became scarce goods, the best of which were reserved for the socialist functionaries. 

Strange too how workers 'exploited' under capitalism in most cases enjoyed a higher standard of living in all respects than their 'comrades' living under socialism...

I think we are entering a very dangerous phase in European politics. Extremist parties of left and right are gaining ground and little wonder when you consider that most European leaders seem like rabbits transfixed by the headlights of the oncoming juggernaut.


----------



## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> I'm not so sure that the welfare state is seen as 'sacrosanct'. It has been shown to be inefficient, costly and unresponsive to individual need. Governments cut public spending when they need money simply because the public sector is unproductive in the strictly economic sense - it consumes rather than produces revenue. Government gets its money from two main sources as you know: individual and corporate taxation and borrowing. If it borrows it must pay back.
> Critics of public spending cuts per se often fail to take this basic fact on board when they protest.


Oh I agree, the Welfare State has been shown to be inefficient, costly and unresponsive to individual need. And I was tempted to add in my last post, how the inefficiency and costliness of that inefficiency is shown to us the most when there are public spending cuts to be made. 

And yes, borrowing has to be paid back, as we are all very aware of in more ways than one!

My use of sacrosanct was in terms of this idea of the safety net you also mention below.
But we all have different ideas on what that safety net should be!
I see it as health care and unemployment benefit and pensions which people have paid in for, others appear to see it as their right to almost anything .



mrypg9 said:


> I would like to see the welfare state as a safety net not an entitlement. * Private enterprise must be encouraged, within a framework of reasonable wage-levels and employment rights for workers, in order to fund that welfare state.* You only have to look at the examples of socialist states to see how poor social services were. They became scarce goods, the best of which were reserved for the socialist functionaries.


Agreed.
But this must be encouraged in a way which is as fair to workers as it is to employers.
I'm not saying that workers have a right to own a company or to dictate its rules, or that they should be entitled to the same income as the owner of the company who has invested in the business, but they should have the basic rights to decent wages and fair working contracts.



mrypg9 said:


> I think we are entering a very dangerous phase in European politics. Extremist parties of left and right are gaining ground and little wonder when you consider that most European leaders seem like rabbits transfixed by the headlights of the oncoming juggernaut.


Sadly, as always on this subject, I totally agree.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Solwriter;785821
Agreed.
But this must be encouraged in a way which is as fair to workers as it is to employers.
I'm not saying that workers have a right to own a company or to dictate its rules said:


> I believe in worker share ownership and any sensible employer will consult the workforce before taking any important decision relating to the company's future.
> The question as to what constitutes a 'decent' wage isn't so straightforward as it should be. Some smallbusinesses simply can't afford to pay a 'decent' wage which is why tax credits were introduced - but that raises the question as to whether the state should subsidise these businesses.
> 
> Those new Spanish labour laws we were discussing now state that if a company needs to make a redundancy it must pay its worker twenty-two days pay for each year worked. That is frankly ludicrous. That is almost five times the amount in the UK and much more than Germany. The previous amount due was even more ludicrous.
> PYMES who need to make redundancies to keep their companies afloat in times of downturn can't afford that kind of money. We have an employee who has been with the organisation for sixteen years. He has taken huge periods of time off recently for genuine medical reasons and isn't really up to the job. But we simply can't afford to pay him what he should receive under the redundancy law. This puts great pressure on the charity and its workers.


----------



## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> The question as to what constitutes a 'decent' wage isn't so straightforward as it should be. Some smallbusinesses simply can't afford to pay a 'decent' wage which is why tax credits were introduced - but that raises the question as to whether the state should subsidise these businesses.


Exactly!
This requires a whole new way of thinking (which as we agree, the present lot have no way of undertaking).

Can't answer the rest.
I have been here all day waiting for the DNS to update on some of my websites and now that it has I can at last get on with some work....

But now its time to feed the dogs!


----------



## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I
> Those new Spanish labour laws we were discussing now state that if a company needs to make a redundancy it must pay its worker twenty-two days pay for each year worked. That is frankly ludicrous. That is almost five times the amount in the UK and much more than Germany. The previous amount due was even more ludicrous.
> PYMES who need to make redundancies to keep their companies afloat in times of downturn can't afford that kind of money. We have an employee who has been with the organisation for sixteen years. He has taken huge periods of time off recently for genuine medical reasons and isn't really up to the job. But we simply can't afford to pay him what he should receive under the redundancy law. This puts great pressure on the charity and its workers.


This is one of the reasons why , when any spanish business/bar/restaurant is bought all the staff are made redundant/sacked. No one will take on an existing one with staff as you'll inherit the years of service & corresponding redundancy payments !


----------



## Wannabe Expat (May 2, 2012)

gus-lopez said:


> This is one of the reasons why , when any spanish business/bar/restaurant is bought all the staff are made redundant/sacked. No one will take on an existing one with staff as you'll inherit the years of service & corresponding redundancy payments !


Is there no equivalent of the TUPE Regulations in Spain under which the new owner of a business has to take on the staff on the same terms and conditions of service or maybe there is but no-one takes a blind bit of notice?!


----------



## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

gus-lopez said:


> This is one of the reasons why , when any spanish business/bar/restaurant is bought all the staff are made redundant/sacked. No one will take on an existing one with staff as you'll inherit the years of service & corresponding redundancy payments !




Think you will find that is the norm in any bar anywhere in the world.

Take over a pub/bar and all the old staff go.. I have never ever taken over anyones staff.


----------



## Wannabe Expat (May 2, 2012)

*Taking over staff of businesses*



MaidenScotland said:


> Think you will find that is the norm in any bar anywhere in the world.
> 
> Take over a pub/bar and all the old staff go.. I have never ever taken over anyones staff.


No I'm a commercial property and business lawyer here in the UK and people do have to take over existing staff of businesses unless they want to risk the wrath of the courts or industrial tribunal.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Wannabe Expat said:


> No I'm a commercial property and business lawyer here in the UK and people do have to take over existing staff of businesses unless they want to risk the wrath of the courts or industrial tribunal.


That's right!! And rightly so. Workers have rights, after all.

The difference between Spain and the UK as I see it is that a) laws are regarded as being just that: laws, to be taken note of and obeyed and b) trades unions have more input with the 'corridors of power' in the UK.

But aren't all such cases handled by Tribunals rather than Courts?

As I understand it, all cases relating to TUPE, unfair dismissal or harassment under the new Single Equality Act etc. are dealt with at Tribunals. There seems to be no exact equivalent in Spain.

The only cases where a County Court would be the venue for a claim would be under the Provisions of Goods and Services?

Or maybe things have changed in the almost eight years since I left the UK and had direct involvement in such matters...


----------



## Wannabe Expat (May 2, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> That's right!! And rightly so. Workers have rights, after all.
> 
> The difference between Spain and the UK as I see it is that a) laws are regarded as being just that: laws, to be taken note of and obeyed and b) trades unions have more input with the 'corridors of power' in the UK.
> 
> ...


I think cases for wrongful dismissal at common law can be handled by the courts but I'm not a litigator and detailed employment law is also really outside my remit


----------



## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Wannabe Expat said:


> No I'm a commercial property and business lawyer here in the UK and people do have to take over existing staff of businesses unless they want to risk the wrath of the courts or industrial tribunal.


But in The Uk you can make someone with 20 years service redundant for a few tapwashers & a paper clip. Here, especially under the old system, it would bankrupt you. 

A neighbour of mine volunteered for redundancy after 20 years with the council.
They had to pay him 135k based on the old 45 days per year. He could see the writing on the wall & got out before the payments were cut. He'll be coming up to the end of his 2 years unemployment benefit soon but he doesn't need to work in reality as A) the house is paid for B) he's always rented on ,10 year contracts, the 
500,000m2 of land around the house to the co-operatives & C) they've never p***ed the money he earnt away. He's 41 .

I was doodling recently & worked out that if you employed someone on the absolute basic wage then you'd have to put away an additional 25%minimum every year just to cover the possible redundancy payments. It's probably slightly less now under the new system.


----------



## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

gus-lopez said:


> But in The Uk you can make someone with 20 years service redundant for a few tapwashers & a paper clip. Here, especially under the old system, it would bankrupt you.


As an ex employer in the UK I can tell you that is not true
Yes, if there are only a few years experience, but 20 years is likely to be a costly episode. therefore for instance a company that is in financial trouble with a workforce can be in dire staights because of the cost of slimming that workforce.

My wife was made redundant in effect, and it cost the employer in excess of £30k

In europe it has long been the idea to employ people on short term contact. In the 90's we visited a factory in Holland and were told that they only employed people on 6 month contacts because it was too expensive to take them on as a proper employee. So after 6 months you were gone, and a new employee was taken on and trained.


----------



## Wannabe Expat (May 2, 2012)

gus-lopez said:


> But in The Uk you can make someone with 20 years service redundant for a few tapwashers & a paper clip. Here, especially under the old system, it would bankrupt you.
> 
> A neighbour of mine volunteered for redundancy after 20 years with the council.
> They had to pay him 135k based on the old 45 days per year. He could see the writing on the wall & got out before the payments were cut. He'll be coming up to the end of his 2 years unemployment benefit soon but he doesn't need to work in reality as A) the house is paid for B) he's always rented on ,10 year contracts, the
> ...


Yes I had read about Spanish redundancy payments. Presumably that's why secure contracts of employment are hard to come by in Spain!


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Stravinsky said:


> As an ex employer in the UK I can tell you that is not true
> Yes, if there are only a few years experience, but 20 years is likely to be a costly episode. therefore for instance a company that is in financial trouble with a workforce can be in dire staights because of the cost of slimming that workforce.
> 
> My wife was made redundant in effect, and it cost the employer in excess of £30k
> ...


Which is what happens here, but they are 3 month contracts and supposedly illegal.

I mean illegal to give a string of them to one person


----------



## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Stravinsky said:


> As an ex employer in the UK I can tell you that is not true
> Yes, if there are only a few years experience, but 20 years is likely to be a costly episode. therefore for instance a company that is in financial trouble with a workforce can be in dire staights because of the cost of slimming that workforce.
> 
> My wife was made redundant in effect, and it cost the employer in excess of £30k
> ...


We are going back to what they used to do in the shipyards ! 1year 11months & 3weeks & you were laid off. A week at home & then you'd be 're-employed' .

As Sheldon Adelson ( Euro-Vegas project ) said"Spanish tax & social security payments are too onerous "


----------



## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Which is what happens here, but they are 3 month contracts and supposedly illegal.


I can honestly say that I don't know anyone working in a bar that has any type of contract. It would appear around here that the only permanent workers are with the council , banks, police ,etc; & the supermarkets. Oh & my insurance broker !


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Wannabe Expat said:


> I think cases for wrongful dismissal at common law can be handled by the courts but I'm not a litigator and detailed employment law is also really outside my remit


No, unfair dismissal cases are dealt with by Employment Tribunals. Common law doesn't enter into it at all. 

My field when I worked for my Union was the implementation of European Employment Directives as required by the Social Chapter into UK law....these were mainly laws relating to discrimination as defined by the so-called 'six strands': age, gender, disability, race,sexual orientation and religion/ethnicity.
Cases taken under these laws are heard at Tribunals also which imo, having represented claimants at these Tribunals, frankly isn't good enough.


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

gus-lopez said:


> I can honestly say that I don't know anyone working in a bar that has any type of contract. It would appear around here that the only permanent workers are with the council , banks, police ,etc; & the supermarkets. Oh & my insurance broker !


I don't know about bars. I'm talking about office workers.


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Which is what happens here, but they are 3 month contracts and supposedly illegal.
> 
> I mean illegal to give a string of them to one person


 The company I worked for gave out 2 three month contracts and then a contrato indefinido. However, if they wanted someone to leave, they would pay them an extra months salary to hand in their notice!!! In fact one girl I know actually went back having been off sick, only to be told that in her absence she'd handed in her notice - they gave her wonderful references tho lol!!!

jo xxxx


----------



## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> That's right!! And rightly so. Workers have rights, after all.
> 
> The difference between Spain and the UK as I see it is that a) laws are regarded as being just that: laws, to be taken note of and obeyed and b) trades unions have more input with the 'corridors of power' in the UK.
> 
> ...


In Spain cases of unfair dimissal are heard in the Juzgado de lo Social although previously you have to put your claim in at the SMAC (Servicio de Mediación, Arbitraje y Conciliación), if both parties fail to reach an agreement here, then it goes to a tribunal, which is the juzgado de lo social. Although the names are different, here Tribunales are higher justice courts, like the Tribunal Superior, Tribunal Supremo, Tribunal Constitucional. I assume though the function is similar.


----------



## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Which is what happens here, but they are 3 month contracts and supposedly illegal.
> 
> I mean illegal to give a string of them to one person


It is legal up to maximum of 12 months though, but the new labour reform proposes increasing this to two years. After the 12 month period they should give you a "contrato indefinido" and it's here where there is the loophole, if they don't renew your final contract and you become unemployed, after a couple of months the process can start all over again. This is one area they should be paying more attention to. And although I agree that redundancy payments for unfair dismissal are too high by making it cheaper, they are not going to create more stable employment. What really needs to be lowered are the costs of employment. At present the employer pays 28% contribution for his employees which is one of the reasons many small business have undeclared workers, they need an employee to be able to function but can't afford the conditions of doing it legally.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

anles said:


> In Spain cases of unfair dimissal are heard in the Juzgado de lo Social although previously you have to put your claim in at the SMAC (Servicio de Mediación, Arbitraje y Conciliación), if both parties fail to reach an agreement here, then it goes to a tribunal, which is the juzgado de lo social. Although the names are different, here Tribunales are higher justice courts, like the Tribunal Superior, Tribunal Supremo, Tribunal Constitucional. I assume though the function is similar.



Thanks for putting that information in context. It sounds as if he Spanish system is more thorough and fair than the UK ET system.
The first ET I attended was a shock to my system. I remember our Union lawyer responding to my comments about the amateurishness of the set-up and proceedings with the comment that 'the admittedly dented shield' was the only available protection for an unfairly dismissed worker.
When we created a redundancy last year in an attempt to be fair to a worker who was frankly deceitful, lazy and incompetent, we were taken to what I now understand was the Tribunal after all attempts at mediation via the SMAC failed because of his intransigence. (We should have sacked him, with hindsight it would have been easier, but I sometimes bend over backwards to be fari, I guess because of my past history so we suggested redundancy and an anodyne reference, which he declined). 
On reflection, I think the Tribunal's judgment was fair, although it caused us cash flow problems at the time, which could have been fatal for a 'real' small business and not a charity. We had to pay wages which we would have been obliged to anyway if he had been on a temporada.
I also thought the proceedings had an air of authority and dignity which in my experience wasn't always a part of the English system.
But that's just my point of view, others may well disagree.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

anles said:


> It is legal up to maximum of 12 months though, but the new labour reform proposes increasing this to two years. After the 12 month period they should give you a "contrato indefinido" and it's here where there is the loophole, if they don't renew your final contract and you become unemployed, after a couple of months the process can start all over again. This is one area they should be paying more attention to. And although I agree that redundancy payments for unfair dismissal are too high by making it cheaper, they are not going to create more stable employment. What really needs to be lowered are the costs of employment. At present the employer pays 28% contribution for his employees which is one of the reasons many small business have undeclared workers, they need an employee to be able to function but can't afford the conditions of doing it legally.


I agree with most of what you have said. The costs of employment are far too high. But the redundacy payments are still amongst the highest in the EU and can prove the final blow for a PYME struggling with too many employees and low order books. Spain ranks very low on any index of the 'world's best place to do business' and these laws form part of that perception.

Yes, there will be job losses in the short term. But in the medium to long term, PYMES will have confidenceto take on workers in the knowledge that they have the option of flexibility when there's a downturn.

I would put money on the chance of Hollande relaxing France's labour laws in an effort to stimulate growth as was his election promise. There is too much competition from low wage high productivity Asian and some South American economies for Europe to continue with such expensive arrangements.

The problem lies in creating the right workable balance between creating jobs and prosperity and safeguarding workers' rights. But to do so isn't rocket scienve and the chief essential agreement imo is goodwill and willingness to compromise.


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

anles said:


> . And although I agree that redundancy payments for unfair dismissal are too high by making it cheaper, they are not going to create more stable employment.


I don't know anyone who thinks it will create employment, but I do know a few people who are relieved that the redundancy payments are going down.

Going even more off track...
I know cuts have to be made, even in health and education, but I don't agree with cutting essentials like STAFF. That doesn't do the service or the economy any good. Cut swimming classes, school trips, buying new equipment for a couple of years...

And only cuts and no investment is just going to help us on our way to total melt down even quicker.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I don't know anyone who thinks it will create employment, but I do know a few people who are relieved that the redundancy payments are going down.
> 
> Going even more off track...
> I know cuts have to be made, even in health and education, but I don't agree with cutting essentials like STAFF.That doesn't do the service or the eonomy any good. Cut swimming classes, school trips, buying new equipment for a couple of years...
> ...


Agree 99% hence the 'like'.

But bear in mind that the most expensive item for any business over the medium to long term will be the wages bill. 

I think it's HOW the staff are used that matters.


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Agree 99% hence the 'like'.
> 
> But bear in mind that the most expensive item for any business over the medium to long term will be the wages bill.
> 
> I think it's HOW the staff are used that matters.


Yes, of course, which is why in many cases that people are the first to go, not other "things". However, in some ways I think it's the easiest to do too, the easiest to calculate the saving to be made for example, easy to get rid of somebody you don't like in some way too.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yes, of course, which is why in many cases that people are the first to go, not other "things". However, in some ways I think it's the easiest to do too, the easiest to calculate the saving to be made for example, easy to get rid of somebody you don't like in some way too.


All true...but that's how responsible capitalism works. All businesses have to make profits to stay in business. So when your order book looks a bit on the 'thin' side you look for the most obvious and -yes -the 'easiest' way to cut overheads so you can stay in business, keep jobs for your other employees and contribute via your tax bill to the cost of keeping the uinemployed from destitution.

As for 'getting rid of someone you don't like' well, I think that's a good reason to consider terminating their employment. Of course it isn't and shouldn't be easy to sack people on a whim. Most employers are sensible, rational people. But when we didn't like an employee because they were constantly late, or stole, or organised private work from our premises using our equipment, or behaved in an offensive manner to other employees, management or the public, or did unacceptable work...then yes, we sacked them.... 
A good employer creates a good working environment with fair wages 
and good employees recognise and respect that and should fulfil their side of the bargain.

The flip side is the old socialist economies of Eastern and Central Europe. True, everyone had a 'safe' job. But productivity was extremely low and quality of output unacceptable. The joke saying was 'We pretend to work and they pretend to pay us'.
The burden of all this, combined with the other unworkable features of socialist commanmd economies, brought these states to their knees....and to capitalism!
Sadly, the old 'job for life' attitudes linger on and over-manning and low productivity is still a drag on the Czech economy, the one of which I have first-hand experience.


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> All true...but that's how responsible capitalism works. All businesses have to make profits to stay in business. So when your order book looks a bit on the 'thin' side you look for the most obvious and -yes -the 'easiest' way to cut overheads so you can stay in business, keep jobs for your other employees and contribute via your tax bill to the cost of keeping the uinemployed from destitution.
> 
> As for 'getting rid of someone you don't like' well, I think that's a good reason to consider terminating their employment. Of course it isn't and shouldn't be easy to sack people on a whim. Most employers are sensible, rational people. But when we didn't like an employee because they were constantly late, or stole, or organised private work from our premises using our equipment, or behaved in an offensive manner to other employees, management or the public, or did unacceptable work...then yes, we sacked them....
> A good employer creates a good working environment with fair wages
> ...


Well, perhaps the government could help employers, and therefore themselves by giving guidelines about how to make savings in other areas. In transport for example, how to save energy...


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well, perhaps the government could help employers, and therefore themselves by giving guidelines about how to make savings in other areas. In transport for example, how to save energy...




Yes, they should, but such savings will be small compared to the debt that's accrued.

We need to rethink the whole basis of our economic model and philosophy. The most obvious fundamental shift is to rein in the market so that it serves society, instead of controlling it as is now the case.

Then we must also consider as a matter of urgency long-term sustainability of a growth model that relies on the rapid and dangerous depletion of finite natural resources.

These are really crucial, exciting challenges and if I were decades younger I'd be tempted back into serious politics again...


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Yes, they should, but such savings will be small compared to the debt that's accrued.
> 
> We need to rethink the whole basis of our economic model and philosophy. The most obvious fundamental shift is to rein in the market so that it serves society, instead of controlling it as is now the case.


Yes, I know that the real savings come with shedding people. It doesn't help to think about what might have been, but I still think about it. If we had started to cut back, instead of simply cut, before could we have stopped today's chaos a bit?

And your last bit about rethinking our market so that it serves society. It's a joke, isn't it, that we even have to state that.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> And your last bit about rethinking our market so that it serves society. It's a joke, isn't it, that we even have to state that.


Yes. We ignored hundreds of years of history when we fell for the snake-oil charms of the 'free' market, a free market that has us all in chains.

But 99% of us fell for it...


----------



## mickw (Jun 13, 2011)

i tend to watch lots of news and found that spanish news is limited to the bbc and is limited to radio 4 and world news thats on between 2/4 am,i tend to find out by googling it and thats because im intrested so for most people in the uk they wouldnt have a clue about problems in europe apart from greece,s problems, the uk is not much better work wise, im a recently divorced father of 3 with 22 years under the belt as a plumbing and heating engineer with all qualifications and charterd , if i add all my working days up from x mas i think ive done 3 full weeks..in hindsight i wish i had stayed in benitachell


----------



## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

mickw said:


> i tend to watch lots of news and found that spanish news is limited to the bbc and is limited to radio 4 and world news thats on between 2/4 am,i tend to find out by googling it and thats because im intrested so for most people in the uk they wouldnt have a clue about problems in europe apart from greece,s problems, the uk is not much better work wise, im a recently divorced father of 3 with 22 years under the belt as a plumbing and heating engineer with all qualifications and charterd , if i add all my working days up from x mas i think ive done 3 full weeks..in hindsight i wish i had stayed in benitachell


And that's an example of what I was talking about earlier in this thread.
There are very few decent jobs in the UK or Spain and qualifications and experience, whilst helping a little, will count for nothing if there is no market for them.

This is when people think 'Why not move to Spain anyway?'
(and in your case, 'Why did I leave?')

But one thing many Brits forget is that they have the advantage of the benefit system in the UK. It isn't much, but it is a safety net in most cases. And they will not have that safety net in Spain.

But in your case, I am guessing that you are self employed, so I can see that, for you, even benefits for being unemployed will be very limited.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

mickw said:


> i tend to watch lots of news and found that spanish news is limited to the bbc and is limited to radio 4 and world news thats on between 2/4 am,i tend to find out by googling it and thats because im intrested so for most people in the uk they wouldnt have a clue about problems in europe apart from greece,s problems, *the uk is not much better work wise*, im a recently divorced father of 3 with 22 years under the belt as a plumbing and heating engineer with all qualifications and charterd , if i add all my working days up from x mas i think ive done 3 full weeks..in hindsight i wish i had stayed in benitachell




You cannot compare UK unemployment at under 9% with Spanish unemployment at 25%. 
Add to that the generous UK system of unemployment benefits and the comparison becomes even more far-fetched.

How would you have survived in Benitachell? Surely unemployment is high there.....
And no welfare safety net...


----------



## Seb* (Mar 22, 2009)

mickw said:


> i tend to watch lots of news and found that spanish news is limited to the bbc and is limited to radio 4 and world news thats on between 2/4 am,i tend to find out by googling it and thats because im intrested so for most people in the uk they wouldnt have a clue about problems in europe apart from greece,s problems, the uk is not much better work wise, im a recently divorced father of 3 with 22 years under the belt as a plumbing and heating engineer with all qualifications and charterd , if i add all my working days up from x mas i think ive done 3 full weeks..in hindsight i wish i had stayed in benitachell


Well you can always chose to take up a job outside of your field of expertise, yes you might earn less or don't like the hours. But a job is a job and it will keep you in employment for a while. In Spain you do not have that option, cause there are zero jobs, not even of the crappiest kind.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Solwriter said:


> And that's an example of what I was talking about earlier in this thread.
> There are very few decent jobs in the UK or Spain and qualifications and experience, whilst helping a little, will count for nothing if there is no market for them.
> 
> *This is when people think 'Why not move to Spain anyway?'*
> ...


This whole idea that people have some sort of 'human right' to move around the world seeking work in countries with high unemployment and desperate economic problems needs urgent reexaming, imo.

Free movement of labour in the EU, as enshrined in the Single European Act/Maastricht, has benefited the wealthy over the less well-off, big corporations as against small to medium-sized enterprises and has caused family break-up, social disintegration and the rise of the far right. It serves the cause of neo-liberal capitalism, not some vague 'internationalism' (whatever that means).

The same can be said for free movement of goods and capital. Cheap credit lead to a construction boom in Spain which resulted in an extra 25% addition to the housing stock in the first years of the twenty-first century - more houses built over the same period than in the U.S., with a much larger population.

It's not just the eurozone that needs sorting out...it's the whole 'Single Market' concept that should be held up and scrutinised. When you look closely at the implications of the 'United States of Europe' idea its total unreality hits you in the face. How can you integrate a collection of nation states with widely differing histories, economies and cultures?
Sheer lunacy. When I was a child I used to believe that those in charge of us were clever, assured people, way superior to we mere mortals, who knew what they were doing and could be trusted to steer the country to prosperity.

Then I met leading politicians......


----------



## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> This whole idea that people have some sort of 'human right' to move around the world seeking work in countries with high unemployment and desperate economic problems needs urgent reexaming, imo.
> 
> Free movement of labour in the EU, as enshrined in the Single European Act/Maastricht, has benefited the wealthy over the less well-off, big corporations as against small to medium-sized enterprises and has caused family break-up, social disintegration and the rise of the far right. It serves the cause of neo-liberal capitalism, not some vague 'internationalism' (whatever that means).
> 
> ...


All agreed.
Apart from this....


mrypg9 said:


> When I was a child I used to believe that those in charge of us were clever, assured people, way superior to we mere mortals, who knew what they were doing and could be trusted to steer the country to prosperity.
> 
> Then I met leading politicians......


Maybe I was born a cynic (or more likely, come from a very questioning background....), but I cannot remember ever thinking that those in charge of us were superior and certainly not cleverer than us mere mortals.
And as I grew up, I developed the opinion that Governments are made up of a very small minority of people with intelligence and high ideals (and these are often compromised anyway), and the rest are simply bumbling along from one crisis to the next, never really understanding what's going on.


----------



## Calas felices (Nov 29, 2007)

*Comparison*

Unfortunately one person's story does not necessarily represent the whole picture, solwriter. In my area it's impossible to get a plumber or a kitchen fitter for the next three months as they are so busy.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Solwriter said:


> All agreed.
> Apart from this....
> 
> Maybe I was born a cynic (or more likely, come from a very questioning background....), but I cannot remember ever thinking that those in charge of us were superior and certainly not cleverer than us mere mortals.
> And as I grew up, I developed the opinion that Governments are made up of a very small minority of people with intelligence and high ideals (and these are often compromised anyway), and the rest are simply bumbling along from one crisis to the next, never really understanding what's going on.


Well, maybe it's how I was brought up....my family background was simple, not-very-well off but never 'poor' country stock. I was taught to respect my elders and those in authority. When I won a place at a direct grant school I was subjected to snobbery and was made to feel an 'interloper'. My first surprise was to discover that I was more 'clever', academically at least, than these middle-class 'gels', some of whose families had maids at home.....(It was the mid-fifties).

That started my rebelliousness and once at University in London I got involved in what to me were exciting left-wing circles. ....That's how I came to meet the likes of Anthony Wedgewood Benn, Harold Wilson, Jenny Lee, Callaghan and many others.

I began to realise that these were not 'gods of the labour movement, 'heros of the working-class' and so on..They were basically only like me with more brains and experience....It was a frightening moment!!


----------



## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

Calas felices said:


> Unfortunately one person's story does not necessarily represent the whole picture, solwriter. In my area it's impossible to get a plumber or a kitchen fitter for the next three months as they are so busy.


Sorry, but I'm not sure where you live.
Perhaps Mickw should think about moving there.


----------



## Redstripe_27 (Apr 22, 2012)

Hardly anything apart from something on Newsnight, but the news in dominated by Murdoc and co and Greece at the moment.

I hink for most people they just want to escape and think that running a bar or cafe is an easy option, they dont think about the 20 hour days, 7 days a week.

And I agree with previous remarks, why move if you can't speak the language, god knows us Brits moan enough about people arriving here and not speaking English.

As for myself, I am still moving over in September, but am fortunate enough not to have to work after my 50th in July, I am only renting in Spain as the cost is unbelievably low and will be renting my home in the UK which will provide me with more than enough income until my pension kicks in when I am 55.

But people really need to look into this properly before they move, I have been asking questions on here and with friends over there for the past 8 months and have concluded that, for me, it is the best thing to do.


----------



## dunmovin (Dec 19, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> This is a genuine question - I'm not trying to prove a point - for people who are living in the UK - people like Jojo, or newbies who are asking about moving to Spain.
> Is there any news on tv, radio or newspapers about what is happening in Spain ie more than 5 million unemployed, cuts in health and education, Spaniards emigrating to look for work, more than 50% of the under 25's without work etc etc? Or is it just largely ignored?
> I'm just wondering why people are still asking about moving to Spain with family in tow to look for work, especially people with no qualifications and no language skills. There has to be a reason more than bad weather.



where do you want to start?
After living and working in Hong Kong for 13 years(language skills;;; I do speak cantonese and some mandarin,...) I was not going back to the UK, to find my well earnt savings would be taxed to fund things I disagree with,my household rubbish will get me fine and barred from council workers collecting it, because I put my hp sauce bottle in the wrong bin.

I can't enter a bank wearing a crash helmet, but someone wearing a burkka can.(there could be a dalek under that amount of cloth and you would never know)
the dole scroungers, the work shy benefits.... need I go on?


at least here in Spain, if you have the money to support you and your nearest and dearest, are not a burden to the state,but add to the economy....... no one hates you.


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Redstripe_27 said:


> Hardly anything apart from something on Newsnight, but the news in dominated by Murdoc and co and Greece at the moment.
> 
> I hink for most people they just want to escape and think that running a bar or cafe is an easy option, they dont think about the 20 hour days, 7 days a week.
> 
> ...


Tere are many people for whom spain is a great option. Those who have work, who dont need to work, those who are footloose, fancy free and have a bit of money. But for families, or those who think that running a bar will give them enough income to live on and are expecting it to be easy - Not at the moment!

Jo xxx


----------



## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

I remember when Poland joined the club, a government spokeman said "We expect no more than 20-25k Polish workers to join us in the UK over the next three years" lol, we had around 250k. 

I never thought I would ever say that the UK is just too small to look after those already here let alone those arriving on a daily basis. I somehow feel ashamed to say that enough is enough, we need to lock down the borders


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

bob_bob said:


> I remember when Poland joined the club, a government spokeman said "We expect no more than 20-25k Polish workers to join us in the UK over the next three years" lol, we had around 250k.
> 
> I never thought I would ever say that the UK is just too small to look after those already here let alone those arriving on a daily basis. I somehow feel ashamed to say that enough is enough, we need to lock down the borders


I would have agreed with you until I started work in a shop in a rather unpleasant area of my home town. I now think that its the foreign workers coming over and paying taxes, who are supporting our own lazy, indigenous families who only work if its cash in hand and claim every benefit going!!! I'm also horrified at the drugs that are available these days - I know its always been a problem, running in the background of society, but these days buying and using "weed" is as common as having an icecream!!! Even the police turn a blind eye. And dont get me started on shop lifting (guess who's had a bad shift at work in said shop tonight ???)

Jo xxx


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

jojo said:


> I would have agreed with you until I started work in a shop in a rather unpleasant area of my home town. I now think that its the foreign workers coming over and paying taxes, who are supporting our own lazy, indigenous families who only work if its cash in hand and claim every benefit going!!! I'm also horrified at the drugs that are available these days - I know its always been a problem, running in the background of society, but these days buying and using "weed" is as common as having an icecream!!! Even the police turn a blind eye. And dont get me started on shop lifting (guess who's had a bad shift at work in said shop tonight ???)
> 
> Jo xxx


Hi Jo,
Great job eh??
It must be hard for you to turn up every day to such a grot spot. Still money in the bank, and hopefully you'll be "talent spotted" and offered smth better.
You know you're one of the few people who have mentioned cash in hand in the UK. The majority who live in Spain, seem to have amnesia when it comes to money under the table in their home country. It's true that in Spain it's a huge problem, which has caused serious lack of money for the government and it's totally out of control. But from that to believe that cash in hand doesn't exist in the UK is putting the blinkers on I feel. And often it's the same kind of people who are taking cash in hand - the odd jobbers, the people who find it difficult to get permanent well paid jobs.
Where it differs, I know, is in the bigger number transactions like buying a house, car, and in politics although I can't believe that these areas are unaffected either. My belief is that political corruption is there for example in many ways. The politicians are just not so blasé about it as they are in Spain and I believe in many ways it's more serious involving drugs and arms for example or one group favouring another in various deals. 
I think it's easier for people to close their eyes, or be unaware of it than it is in Spain.


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Hi Jo,
> Great job eh??
> It must be hard for you to turn up every day to such a grot spot. Still money in the bank, and hopefully you'll be "talent spotted" and offered smth better.
> You know you're one of the few people who have mentioned cash in hand in the UK. The majority who live in Spain, seem to have amnesia when it comes to money under the table in their home country. It's true that in Spain it's a huge problem, which has caused serious lack of money for the government and it's totally out of control. But from that to believe that cash in hand doesn't exist in the UK is putting the blinkers on I feel. And often it's the same kind of people who are taking cash in hand - the odd jobbers, the people who find it difficult to get permanent well paid jobs.
> ...


I dont know why I do this wretched job - stubborn and tenacious I guess. I wont give up, I'm made of better stuff and the money is nice (not enough, but nice lol) As for "cash in hand" in the UK, its everywhere and dont let anyone tell you anything else. The difference IMO from Spain is that its not as open cos people are frightened of being caught, so its not offered (unless they're friends). I also think its not common in bigger business as they have to have their books done and accountants dont like to get involved in anything too risky, altho they're a dab hand at finding loopholes. Big brother is ever present in the UK. But for low level jobs and amongst friends, its always cash in hand!

Jo xxx


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

jojo said:


> I dont know why I do this wretched job - stubborn and tenacious I guess. I wont give up, I'm made of better stuff and the money is nice (not enough, but nice lol) As for "cash in hand" in the UK, its everywhere and dont let anyone tell you anything else. The difference IMO from Spain is that its not as open cos people are frightened of being caught, so its not offered (unless they're friends). I also think its not common in bigger business as they have to have their books done and accountants dont like to get involved in anything too risky, altho they're a dab hand at finding loopholes. Big brother is ever present in the UK. But for low level jobs and amongst friends, its always cash in hand!
> 
> Jo xxx


So we have exactly the same impression Jo


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Pesky Wesky said:


> So we have exactly the same impression Jo


  

The UK has also turned into a strange litigation society. Everyone feels they need to be accountable, in case they get sued (or can sue). So "i"s are dotted, "t"s are crossed, insurances are paid and everything is done correctly - just in case something goes wrong and the "lawyers" start circling!!! But, I had some quotes for some work on my garden and they all made it obvious that they could do it cheaper for cash, although it wasnt offered as such! I'm possibly gonna get a friend to do it for "cash" .........or try to get my lazy 17 yo son to get his butt out there for even less lol!!

Jo xxx


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

bob_bob said:


> I remember when Poland joined the club, a government spokeman said "We expect no more than 20-25k Polish workers to join us in the UK over the next three years" lol, we had around 250k.
> 
> I never thought I would ever say that the UK is just too small to look after those already here let alone those arriving on a daily basis. I somehow feel ashamed to say that enough is enough, we need to lock down the borders



Why be ashamed? For anyone who doesn't sniff racism in every nook and cranny, the immigration debate is about numbers, not culture or skin colour. That debate has moved on to what is meant by 'multi-culturalism'. Second and third generation sons and daughters of Caribbean and Asian immigrants are calling for an end to further immigration. Those who say it's about racism are either unaware of how most people think or are pushing another far-left agenda, imo.

Do we really want to see the whole of the UK covered in concrete? Because that is what will happen unless immigration is curbed. Houses must be built, roads constructed. Should British people have no say in how their country, their towns and cities and even villages should look? What is wrong to giving priority to people of British nationality,. settled in the UK and who contribute to the running of our country, over newcomers? 

We've been insiduously led to believe in a spurious, woolly 'internationalism' which anyone objecting to is labelled 'racist'. But face facts: this immense n umber of working migrants from former socialist bloc states hasn't benefited the 'people of Britain', whatever the Government may say. It has benefited business, mean-spirited employers and gang-master crooks. It has lowered wages, caused unsolicited change in the look and feel of our cities, towns and villages...and has caused misery and economic distress to many of the areas from which the migrants have come. Huge areas in Poland and the Baltic states have seen an exodus of their young people, an exodus they can't afford.

There is an estimated one million Poles alone in the UK and ROI. Add to that the other socialist states and contemplate the entry of Albania and Turkey to the EU.

Britain is a small island. We simply cannot accommodate more arriovals to a rapidly-growing indigenous population. 

The fact that Canada, Australia and New Zealand are very picky about whom they allow in says it all...


----------



## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

jojo said:


> I dont know why I do this wretched job - stubborn and tenacious I guess. I wont give up, I'm made of better stuff and the money is nice (not enough, but nice lol) As for "cash in hand" in the UK, its everywhere and dont let anyone tell you anything else. The difference IMO from Spain is that its not as open cos people are frightened of being caught, so its not offered (unless they're friends). I also think its not common in bigger business as they have to have their books done and accountants dont like to get involved in anything too risky, altho they're a dab hand at finding loopholes. Big brother is ever present in the UK. But for low level jobs and amongst friends, its always cash in hand!
> 
> Jo xxx


Two sets of books usually does the trick.
Although I will say that it's not as easy to find cash in hand work in the UK as it was a few years ago. Now it's more a case of who you know.

I do think though that the benefits and national insurance systems are making it harder now for employers to take on cash in hand workers and for the workers themselves, because everyone is supposed to be able to prove that they are part of the system, either as a worker, retired, on invalidity benefit , or similar (unless they are a married woman with kids at home). So the cash in hand worker has to work 'underground' more than ever before, and their jobs are even more insecure than they once were.

(And no, I don't do this. But I know a few who do  )


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Solwriter said:


> Two sets of books usually does the trick.
> Although I will say that it's not as easy to find cash in hand work in the UK as it was a few years ago. Now it's more a case of who you know.
> 
> I do think though that the benefits and national insurance systems are making it harder now for employers to take on cash in hand workers and for the workers themselves, because everyone is supposed to be able to prove that they are part of the system, either as a worker, retired, on invalidity benefit , or similar (unless they are a married woman with kids at home). So the cash in hand worker has to work 'underground' more than ever before, and their jobs are even more insecure than they once were.
> ...



Its those "little" jobs tho. the domestic cleaner, gardener, friend who is a mechanic, painting and decorating for "friends" - those jobs still slip thru the net and I know many people who have regular jobs such as those and also claim dole money cos no one knows. They make a good living!

Jo xxx


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jojo said:


> Its those "little" jobs tho. the domestic cleaner, gardener, friend who is a mechanic, painting and decorating for "friends" - those jobs still slip thru the net and I know many people who have regular jobs such as those and also claim dole money cos no one knows. They make a good living!
> 
> Jo xxx


I think there's a whole world of difference between working on the black in those circumstances - claiming benefits & yet still working - & the reason so many do it here

if they didn't, they simply wouldn't eat


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

xabiachica said:


> I think there's a whole world of difference between working on the black in those circumstances - claiming benefits & yet still working - & the reason so many do it here
> 
> if they didn't, they simply wouldn't eat


 Definitely. Its greed rather than need in the UK, which is why its frowned upon more here ad more likely to be found out. In Spain people know too well that it has to be done!

Jo xxx


----------



## dunmovin (Dec 19, 2008)

jojo said:


> I would have agreed with you until I started work in a shop in a rather unpleasant area of my home town. I now think that its the foreign workers coming over and paying taxes, who are supporting our own lazy, indigenous families who only work if its cash in hand and claim every benefit going!!! I'm also horrified at the drugs that are available these days - I know its always been a problem, running in the background of society, but these days buying and using "weed" is as common as having an icecream!!! Even the police turn a blind eye. And dont get me started on shop lifting (guess who's had a bad shift at work in said shop tonight ???)
> 
> Jo xxx


Joe and Jenny public have had it ingrained to them that they are the customer and they will always be right + no matter how rude they are, you must be polite. Absolutely no thought of how they would feel having to deal, day-in-day -out with morons like them.

(Example : during my time working in the family business, delivering coal during the worst weather, I had one customer spat in my face because I refused to take her husband's (dole)giro cheque for payment. Another complained when she said "its a cold day today sonny"....standing in the nice warm dorway.... outside it minus 6 c the sleet is going horizontal, I have a near frozen 50kg bag of coal on my shoulder...
I'm being rude because I say "you think I don't know that"

shoplifters....... export them to Iran


----------



## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

How much dope can you legally grow in your garden in Spain?


----------

