# Travelling in Schengen area with Residencia card



## jakethepeg (Oct 24, 2014)

Happy new year to all  I now have residencia, a lovely apartment in Calpe, and a Spanish registered motorhome. Which is nice. I love to travel, and wondered what would happen if i were to stray outside the borders of Spain for more than 90 days in any 180, would anyone notice? ANPR being all the rage these days. Any thoughts on this?


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## davexf (Jan 26, 2009)

Hola 

My thought is that as you are a resident in the Schengen area, you have freedom to travel in the area 

Davexf


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

jakethepeg said:


> I love to travel, and wondered what would happen if i were to stray outside the borders of Spain for more than 90 days in any 180, would anyone notice? ANPR being all the rage these days. Any thoughts on this?


In general if you don't get in trouble somehow nobody would notice. Of course that's only valid until somebody notices.

Doesn't mean you're allowed. How are you in Spain? 

Even if you're an EU citizen after 90 days you're generally required to register for residence in most EU countries.

What's ANPR?


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

davexf said:


> Hola
> 
> My thought is that as you are a resident in the Schengen area, you have freedom to travel in the area
> 
> Davexf


Nope, not true. A TIE is only valid in Spain, and does not afford you freedom of movement throughout the Schengen area.The normal rule of 90 days in any 180 day period applies. 

Answering the OP's question: since there are no border controls within the EU, you very well might be able to travel freely with no problem. But, if you ever got stopped by the authorities it would be up to you to prove that you haven't spent more than 90/180 outside of Spain. If caught breaking the rule you could be banished from the EU for 10 years. It's not something to play around with.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

kalohi said:


> Answering the OP's question: since there are no border controls within the EU, you very well might be able to travel freely with no problem. But, if you ever got stopped by the authorities it would be up to you to prove that you haven't spent more than 90/180 outside of Spain. If caught breaking the rule you could be banished from the EU for 10 years. It's not something to play around with.


This has always been the case with third country nationals with residence card (permit) in a Schengen country, such as US citizens, Australians etc, to which Britons are now added. Other than trouble with the authorities, your travel and car insurance may not be valid beyond the 90-in-180 days allowed in the rest of Schengen. OK, for a small claim insurers may just pay out, but if you have a big claim, they are bound to scrutinise your legal status to get them out of meeting your claim. Same with EHIC.
A small fine or reprimand is more likely than being excluded from Schengen as a punishment, since you are a legal Spanish resident. 10-year banishment is for illegal migrants, terrorists or drug traffickers.
ANPR is automatic number plate recognition, by which photographing your number plate leads to your vehicle identity, and that of the owner, being established and actions taken.


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## jakethepeg (Oct 24, 2014)

Thanks for the replies, definitely food for thought. From my understanding of Spanish car insurance, it is the car that is insured rather than the driver, and is valid throughout the EU. However if i am wrong I am sure someone l will be able to correct me. The WA is extremely vague on many such issues, but is seems that no one in the UK govt read it properly. But why bother, it was supposed to be the easiest deal in history


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## davexf (Jan 26, 2009)

Hola 

Interesting - the OP's word residencia was changed to TIE; my residencia is headed "Certificado de registro de ciudadano de la union" - so a member of the EU ! 

Davexf


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

jakethepeg said:


> Thanks for the replies, definitely food for thought. From my understanding of Spanish car insurance, it is the car that is insured rather than the driver, and is valid throughout the EU.


It is but your insurance is based on you living in a certain place. If you spend most of the time elsewhere they can claim they never insured you for that.

Vacation abroad? Fine.

Live most of the year elsewhere? Not fine.


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## MataMata (Nov 30, 2008)

trotter58 said:


> Nope, not true. A TIE is only valid in Spain, and does not afford you freedom of movement throughout the Schengen area.The normal rule of 90 days in any 180 day period applies.


Not sure what you're trying to say, freedom of movement IS spending 90 days in any 180 in any Schengen country!

Those with permanent residency (5 years or more) have the same rights of free movement as any other EU citizen which means they are free to visit other Schengen countries for up to 90 days at a time and could in fact hop serially from country to country spending 90 days in each.

Under 5 years and you are limited by the fact that you cannot spend more than 6 months out of the country.

After 10 years residence it's possible to transfer your residency to another state.


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## incatalunya (Nov 16, 2020)

Hmmm....I´m not sure that is true MataMata.....the bit about after ten years you can transfer your residency to another State.


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

MataMata said:


> Not sure what you're trying to say, freedom of movement IS spending 90 days in any 180 in any Schengen country!


You're mixing things.

90 days is just the normal visa waiver period. It's nothing to do with freedom of movement. 

Freedom of movement is the freedom to move for work,study or retirement. 

There are people who have residence rights but aren't allowed into other countries. Italy for example gives residence on humanitarian grounds. Many of those people come from countries that don't have the 90 day visa waiver. If they want to visit other countries they need to apply for a visa.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

MataMata said:


> Not sure what you're trying to say, freedom of movement IS spending 90 days in any 180 in any Schengen country!


No. Freedom of movement is only conferred on EU citizen, and means freedom to live, work, study and retire in any other EU country. There is an individual state's requirement to register after 90 days/3 months, but it's not mandated by EU. 



> Those with permanent residency (5 years or more) have the same rights of free movement as any other EU citizen which means they are free to visit other Schengen countries for up to 90 days at a time and could in fact hop serially from country to country spending 90 days in each.


They have the right to visit other Schengen states for 90-in-180 days, but can't stay more than 90 days in total throughout the area in a period of 180 consecutive days other than in the country where they have residency.



> Under 5 years and you are limited by the fact that you cannot spend more than 6 months out of the country.
> After 10 years residence it's possible to transfer your residency to another state.


You may lose your residency if you stay away more than 6 months in a year until you attain permanent residence, with certain exceptions like childbirth, serious illness, training and compulsory military service.
After 5 years when you become permanent resident, you can transfer residency to some other EU countries, but Denmark and Ireland have opt-outs from the relevant Lisbon Treaty (and UK used to have that too).


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## jakethepeg (Oct 24, 2014)

Interesting how an innocent question seems to open a can of worms , probably need an expensive lawyer to sort it out


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## incatalunya (Nov 16, 2020)

Lol.....I Know. But I thought MataMata was inferring that after ten years ressidency in Spain I could, for instance, decide I want to go and live in France and could transfer my residency to there. As far as I know, I am only allowed to live in Spain, the UK, or the Republic of Ireland. Am I wrong?


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

incatalunya said:


> Lol.....I Know. But I thought MataMata was inferring that after ten years ressidency in Spain I could, for instance, decide I want to go and live in France and could transfer my residency to there. As far as I know, I am only allowed to live in Spain, the UK, or the Republic of Ireland. Am I wrong?











Long-term residents


Directive on the status of non-EU nationals who are long-term residents sets the conditions under which non-EU nationals can obtain the status of long-term residents, which grant them a set of uniform rights, similar to those enjoyed by EU.




ec.europa.eu





Try that


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

MataMata said:


> Not sure what you're trying to say, freedom of movement IS spending 90 days in any 180 in any Schengen *country!
> 
> Those with permanent residency (5 years or more) have the same rights of free movement as any other EU citizen which means they are free to visit other Schengen countries for up to 90 days at a time and could in fact hop serially from country to country spending 90 days in each.*
> 
> ...


.
surely only if you are an EU citizen, which being permanently here does not make you one, if your passport is U.K. then you are a Non Eu citizen under the withdrawal agreement. I’m hoping your right.. do you have the obligatory link please? Thanks


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## incatalunya (Nov 16, 2020)

No...That´s what I´m saying.....As a permanent resident of Spain (UK passport) it does NOT give me the right to transfer my residency to another EU country. I can only live in Spain, the UK or Republic of Ireland.


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## xicoalc (Apr 20, 2010)

incatalunya said:


> No...That´s what I´m saying.....As a permanent resident of Spain (UK passport) it does NOT give me the right to transfer my residency to another EU country. I can only live in Spain, the UK or Republic of Ireland.


That isn't quite as i understand it. I read a document from the European commission the other day, not got it to hand but as a registered resident in one country under art. 50, it does depend on the new country that one may wish to move to but most seem to say that we can move.

From what i understand, as im now a Spanish resident, i could move to, say, Holland but id be a temporary resident until 5 years pass. Me thinks. Correct me if im wrong anyone!


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

xicoalc said:


> That isn't quite as i understand it. I read a document from the European commission the other day, not got it to hand but as a registered resident in one country under art. 50, it does depend on the new country that one may wish to move to but most seem to say that we can move.
> 
> From what i understand, as im now a Spanish resident, i could move to, say, Holland but id be a temporary resident until 5 years pass. Me thinks. Correct me if im wrong anyone!


The so-called onward freedom of movement isn't spelled out in the WA and further clarification and agreement will be needed. Currently, UK citizen with permanent residence in an EU country, such as Spain, doesn't enjoy onward freedom of movement or transfer of permanent residence to another EU state, such as France.
One wonders why EU should offer such concession, as UK has nothing further to offer to EU citizens resident in UK.


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## smifffymoto (Dec 4, 2020)

The British Embassy in Paris referred us to this directive - Long-term residents - Migration and Home Affairs - European Commission


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

Joppa said:


> One wonders why EU should offer such concession, as UK has nothing further to offer to EU citizens resident in UK.


Read the link I posted


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

I don't think the link covers UK citizens under the WA.
'It is not clear whether British citizens living in EU countries will be able to move freely to other EU countries after Brexit. That will be dealt with in the negotiations on the UK’s future relationship with the EU.'
British citizens in Europe after Brexit | The Institute for Government


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## incatalunya (Nov 16, 2020)

I´ll have a look....but in my case my Spouse is Spanish so if we decided to move to another country it would be easier for me as his spouse....not that we intend to move.


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## incatalunya (Nov 16, 2020)

Very interesting.....it sounds like you can move according to the European Commission post if you have been a long-term resident in another EU country. I guess we will have to see how things work out.


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## smifffymoto (Dec 4, 2020)

I have now had the same information from a Consulate in Spain and the Embassy in Paris,take from that what you want.
I would like to think they are a more reliable source than a think tank.


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

Joppa said:


> I don't think the link covers UK citizens under the WA.
> 'It is not clear whether British citizens living in EU countries will be able to move freely to other EU countries after Brexit. That will be dealt with in the negotiations on the UK’s future relationship with the EU.'
> British citizens in Europe after Brexit | The Institute for Government



The link deals with non EU citizens. The EU won't make UK citizens worse off than other non EU citizens.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

NickZ said:


> The link deals with non EU citizens. The EU won't make UK citizens worse off than other non EU citizens.


But WA is a specific, one-off agreement between UK and EU so you can't make comparison with other third country nationals.


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## smifffymoto (Dec 4, 2020)

I understand what you are saying Joppa.The long term resident directive was done in 2003 and makes provision for third country nationals to live,work etc in an EU country etc.
Now the UK is treated as a third country,it is covered by the 2003 directive,the WA has nothing to do with it.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

smifffymoto said:


> Now the UK is treated as a third country, it is covered by the 2003 directive,the WA has nothing to do with it.


Not in this case. UK citizens under the WA have special status unlike other third country nationals. For example, once you attain permanent residence, you can stay away for 5 years without losing your resident status, whereas for other third country nationals, it remains at 2 years. Those Britons who obtained permanent residency before Brexit have been reclassified as beneficiaries of WA, which differ in some ways from other third country nationals. As for transferrable residency, it's not specifically mentioned in the WA and it remains to be seen whether it will apply to beneficiaries of the WA.


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

Joppa said:


> But WA is a specific, one-off agreement between UK and EU so you can't make comparison with other third country nationals.


Denying the right to move acquired after five years of residence would require the EU parliament to pass a law explicitly singling out UK citizens . I doubt that would even be legal.

The withdrawal agreement gives UK citizens extra rights. Not less.

The other point is in many EU countries after ten years of residence you can apply for citizenship.


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