# UK v Spain for bringing up children



## CostaCookie

Hi,

Would be interested to hear your views on this one if you've experienced raising a family in both the UK & Spain.

We moved here before we had our children, they're now 1 & a half & 2 & a half. We're moving back to UK in January, because we feel it's the right decision for us as a family. So many people have said to us that it's a much better quality of life for children in Sapin compared to the UK. Is this true in your experience?

Thanks.
CC


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## jojo

CostaCookie said:


> Hi,
> 
> Would be interested to hear your views on this one if you've experienced raising a family in both the UK & Spain.
> 
> We moved here before we had our children, they're now 1 & a half & 2 & a half. We're moving back to UK in January, because we feel it's the right decision for us as a family. So many people have said to us that it's a much better quality of life for children in Sapin compared to the UK. Is this true in your experience?
> 
> Thanks.
> CC


What an interesting post!!

I felt I had to get my children out of the UK before they got any older, which is why we left when they were 11 and 13. We'd have left before if we could have, but family ties and commitments prevented us from doing that!

The way of life in spain is infinately better for children IMO, the school system is more realistic in Spain, there are so many "PC" issues in Brit schools theses days - for example, when my son started high school before we came to Spain, he complained all the time about how the "naughty kids" ruled. The teacher spent all his time trying unsuccessfully to controll them which meant the "good kids" were left to fend for themselves and learnt nothing (Bear in mind my son is a geek tho lol). 

I hate the way that teenagers in the UK hang around in menacing packs, they know noone can touch them. 

I had my older kids in the UK and although they've turned out ok now, I went thru hell trying to keep them on the straight and narrow. 

The weather spoils most weekend and afterschool activities, there is no space, either mental or physical, and there is no obvious concequenses for actions attitude over there, which I think is important! The PC brigade have ruined any spontaneous or risk taking fun and everything is so cushioned and protected, a good thing maybe??? or maybe not, cos it doesnt teach kids to fend for themselves or face adversity. 

And then theres the overall sense of misery in the UK, moaning, complaining, restrictions, rules, regulations, attitudes, everythings grey and dull. In the UK, kids tend to be frowned on - and should be "seen and not heard". In Spain everyone accepts and loves em!

Obviously this is simply my opinion. But my kids are the main reason I came to Spain want to stay here. Life is wonderful for them here - swimming pool in the garden, quad bikes, horseriding, the beach, open spaces to run around in and explore, freedom............ and of course FAMILY VALUES, which have long since gone in the UK, but is still very important in Spain and that breeds respect!

Jo xxx


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## CostaCookie

jojo said:


> What an interesting post!!
> 
> I felt I had to get my children out of the UK before they got any older, which is why we left when they were 11 and 13. We'd have left before if we could have, but family ties and commitments prevented us from doing that!
> 
> Jo xxx


Thanks v much for the reply Jo & really interesting to hear your views.
I'm having a wobble at the mo as to whether we're making the right decision for the kids. We made the decision to go back as we felt it would be better for their long term future as we couldn't see their future here. For us, we both feel we'd be happier & have much better prospects in UK, but we want to make the decision that's right for the kids. Obviously, it's crucial to their future wellbeing that their parents are happy, but we're not unhappy here. We have a nice lifestyle, but it's never felt like home.
They both started at the local state nursery in September for a few hours every morning & already our eldest is throwing Spanish words into her sentences. That makes me sad that we're taking the chance of being bilingual from her & her brother at such a young age when they'll pick it up so quickly.
It really is a very tough decision to make & as it gets closer, I'm really starting to wonder what to do!!!
Child care in the UK - so expensive. Here, we pay a tiny amount as it's a state nursery & income related.
Cost of living - not too dissimilar of late as we're paid in Sterling!
Family network - miss friends enormously. 
Weather - doesn't bother me too much as I find summers here too much & really hate the rainy season. I miss the seasons though & walks through the New Forest on a cold crisp morning.
What I'd give for a crystal ball!!!!!!!!!!!
x


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## XTreme

Take out family ties....missing the UK etc.....then it's a no brainer!

My kids are all grown up....and we spent the last 20 years in Britain trying to find a decent environment for them....without much luck.

We always hated Britain....and had no family or community ties....so Spain has always felt like home to us. Easy transition!

Spain is a better environment for _everybody_, irrespective of age. But if you're not happy here then you got a tough call to make.


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## jojo

We all have different ideas of whats right and wrong, good or bad for our kids! I dont think there are any better opportunities in the UK than Spain workwise or educationwise, in fact with the way the UK is heading at the mo I cant help thinking that by the time mine are in the workplace, they'd be paying for all this quantitive easing, crisis etc thats been going on! The UK is no longer the place it used to be, infact in the last year, my husband (who commutes there) says its deteriorating beyond words there, both in the infrastructure and peoples attitudes

But who knows, mine may well decide they want to go back to the UK to work or finish their education, but I feel at least I'm showing them that the world is a small place, they'll have the benefit of being slightly bilingual (we havent been here long enough for them to be full) and they can look back on a happy and free childhood!!

However, you have to do what you think is right for your children. My views and opinions arent the same as yours, but that doesnt mean either of us are right or wrong. As long as we all do what we think is best and love them, then wherever they are, they'll be ok!

I'm sure we'll all have moments of wondering "what if" except Xtreme has another opinion and is happy in Spain and has the perfect life for him and thats what matters!

PS, its rainy season every season in the UK LOL!

Jo xxx


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## MaidenScotland

My grandchildren went to Spain just over 2 years ago and it has been the best thing for them in that they have a freedom that was not available to them in the UK.
My daughter allows them to cycle into the nearest village... although she follows them in the car, and they are allowed to stay out "playing" for the day, just keeping in touch by text.
They now swim like fish. They are bilingual, they do not sit in front of the t.v/computer/games consul. They are welcomed in every restaurant they visit, they are happy!


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## jojo

In fairness Costa, you're probably not going to hear what you want to hear on a Spanish Expat forum, maybe we'll simply confuse you and give you a bit too much food for thought which, since you've made your decision, you dont want???? - or do you???

However, dont stop posting or anything, but keep focussed on your aims and what you think is best for your family!

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky

CostaCookie said:


> Hi,
> 
> Would be interested to hear your views on this one if you've experienced raising a family in both the UK & Spain.
> 
> We moved here before we had our children, they're now 1 & a half & 2 & a half. We're moving back to UK in January, because we feel it's the right decision for us as a family. So many people have said to us that it's a much better quality of life for children in Sapin compared to the UK. Is this true in your experience?
> 
> Thanks.
> CC


Firstly I should point out that I haven't got experience of raising a family in both countries, only in Spain. However, I go to visit my family every year in England. From what I see and what happens in my immediate family I don't miss living in England and I can't see that my daughter's missing a valuble experience by being brought up here and not being raised and educated in England. That's not to say everything's rosy here. Jo mentions her pool which a great asset in the summer. We have a pool we share with the "comunidad" that my daughter has hardly been to for the last two years because she's been totally rejected by the teens in our "urbanización" .Thank goodness she has other friends. There are many problems evident in the Spanish education system, but I can't see that the UK system is any better academically nor socially.
I wonder why you think going back to the UK would be better? You have jobs here, would you have jobs there? Is it because the way the economic crisis is affecting Spain? It won't last for ever (I hope) It's true that with happy parents you have more chance of happy children, but do you have specific reasons for thinking you're going to be better off and therefore happier in the UK?
But I have to agree with jo, perhaps the forum isn't the best place for you to get second opinions...
Good luck and keep posting!
PS have been for a 4 hour walk along a path made by Felipe II in fierce winds this morning. Not the same as a walk in the Forest of Dean, but pretty good anyway!!


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## jojo

Ok, I'm gonna say it, but its one of my greatest regrets that we didnt move to Spain when my two youngest were little cos by now they would be immersed into the Spanish language, culture and system and be totally bilingual! IMO Spanish is a good language to be bilingual in and if its learnt young, without any effort then its a valuable asset when they're grown!

Sorry Costa!! Just my opinion! But as I've said you know whats best for you and your family, so dont be swayed if your heart is set and your mind made up!!

Jo xxx


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## CostaCookie

Thanks all for your input - really interested to hear what people think on this one. 

We think it's the right choice for us, so are heading back. We haven't been able to sell our property, which I think is a good thing in hindsight as it keeps the door open for us if, after a year or so, we really miss the lifestyle we have here. It would make the transition so much easier as we have a fully furnished apartment waiting! However, we're approaching it as a final move, a return home.

You're right Jo - I think Spanish is the best language to have, other than English! I grew up in Germany so learnt the language as a child & it's wonderful to be bilingual. I must admit, I've found Spanish really hard to learn as an adult & although I understand everything, my spoken Spanish is poor, I'm ashamed to say after 4 years. Thankfully, my partner is fluent.

Pesky Wesky - we do work, but we work from home. We've made friends since we've been here, but sadly nearly all of them have returned to their home countries. I don't think it's down to befriending us, but you never know! I'm sure we'd have a much wider social circle if we physically went out to work. 

At home, we have friends that we've grown up with & have all had children around the same time as us, so that is something I look forward to - sharing time with friends & all our children.

Thanks again everyone for your thoughts on this, I'm very interested on how it works for others!
xx


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## fourgotospain

Hi there,

I'm new to the forum although I have been lurking for a few weeks now - what an amazing mine of information!!

Wanted to reply to this post as we have had similar concerns moving out (with our 9 and 6 yr old girls). We are headed your way in Jan 2010 and the thing I really had to get my head around is that this move will put their education on a completely different path (they wll go to spanish school) than if they continue to be educated in the UK. The language thing is a bonus too - they speak a bit now due to some intensive coaching, but will hopefully pick it up fast. 

We have travelled a lot with them - in Europe when they were little and then in 2007-08 we took them throught Asia, Australasia and the US for a year. We have come to realise through our travels with them that the UK system is not our first choice of education anymore. Aside from the lack of discipline, the controlling ofsted hand stifling all non academic education and the yummy mummy competitive culture, almost every other country we've visited has a secondary 'High school certificate' type qualification with a much broarder subject base than the traditional GCSE format, something I agree with as so few children have found their vocation at the age of 16.

Now that's not to say that settling in Spain will be a walk in the park (or along the beach ) but the girls education is a very strong reason to move, rather than a mark against. I guess we are hoping that all things considered Spain will be a better place for our kids to have a childhood - they can then decide whether they want to make their life in Spain or the UK.

Hope this helps

Rachel x


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## jojo

fourgotospain said:


> Hi there,
> 
> I'm new to the forum although I have been lurking for a few weeks now - what an amazing mine of information!!
> 
> Wanted to reply to this post as we have had similar concerns moving out (with our 9 and 6 yr old girls). We are headed your way in Jan 2010 and the thing I really had to get my head around is that this move will put their education on a completely different path (they wll go to spanish school) than if they continue to be educated in the UK. The language thing is a bonus too - they speak a bit now due to some intensive coaching, but will hopefully pick it up fast.
> 
> We have travelled a lot with them - in Europe when they were little and then in 2007-08 we took them throught Asia, Australasia and the US for a year. We have come to realise through our travels with them that the UK system is not our first choice of education anymore. Aside from the lack of discipline, the controlling ofsted hand stifling all non academic education and the yummy mummy competitive culture, almost every other country we've visited has a secondary 'High school certificate' type qualification with a much broarder subject base than the traditional GCSE format, something I agree with as so few children have found their vocation at the age of 16.
> 
> Now that's not to say that settling in Spain will be a walk in the park (or along the beach ) but the girls education is a very strong reason to move, rather than a mark against. I guess we are hoping that all things considered Spain will be a better place for our kids to have a childhood - they can then decide whether they want to make their life in Spain or the UK.
> 
> Hope this helps
> 
> Rachel x


Hi Rachel, I totally agree with what you say about the British education system, too busy worrying about ofsted and statistics to worry about education. Also I'm not convinced that GCSEs mean alot anymore. Sadly I put my kids into an international school when we moved here, altho it was the rigtht thing for my son, who was 13 when we arrived, my daughter should have gone into state - well she has now, at 12, she's just started - so far so good??!!????

Glad you've stopped "lurking" and have joined in !!! Welcome!!!

Jo xxx


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## jojo

CostaCookie said:


> Thanks all for your input - really interested to hear what people think on this one.
> 
> We think it's the right choice for us, so are heading back. We haven't been able to sell our property, which I think is a good thing in hindsight as it keeps the door open for us if, after a year or so, we really miss the lifestyle we have here. It would make the transition so much easier as we have a fully furnished apartment waiting! However, we're approaching it as a final move, a return home.
> 
> You're right Jo - I think Spanish is the best language to have, other than English! I grew up in Germany so learnt the language as a child & it's wonderful to be bilingual. I must admit, I've found Spanish really hard to learn as an adult & although I understand everything, my spoken Spanish is poor, I'm ashamed to say after 4 years. Thankfully, my partner is fluent.
> 
> Pesky Wesky - we do work, but we work from home. We've made friends since we've been here, but sadly nearly all of them have returned to their home countries. I don't think it's down to befriending us, but you never know! I'm sure we'd have a much wider social circle if we physically went out to work.
> 
> At home, we have friends that we've grown up with & have all had children around the same time as us, so that is something I look forward to - sharing time with friends & all our children.
> 
> Thanks again everyone for your thoughts on this, I'm very interested on how it works for others!
> xx


I hope that when you return to the UK you post on here and let us know how it goes!! It will be interesting to hear the contrasts of the two countries and how you find it. We've recently had to make some decisions, one of which was to go back to the UK which we fought and luckily Spain won!!! So I'm always interested to hear how the "returnees" find it

Jo xxx


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## Caz.I

Hi,
I think it is a very difficult decision to make, about going back, and quite complex. My son was born here and is very happy in the local state school but I do sometimes wonder in terms of his future prospects, if this is the right place. He's only just started school so I cant really make an informed judgement on the education system here, but I get the impression from most parents that its as good as, or better than, the UK system. Plus I am not totally sure, but I the Bachillerato may now be accepted in some UK universities as I think the International Baccaularate is? My own doubts are mainly about career opportunities, particularly in the part of Spain where I live, as i feel they might be more limited than in the UK. Mind you, thats not going to be for at least another 12 years or so, so who knows.

However, in general I find Spain to be much more child friendly as it were, and better in terms of having an outdoor lifestyle. Even when I was a child, and I went on holiday to Majorca regularly, I really noticed the difference and can still remember feeling much more welcomed here. I dont think I want to go back to the UK but sometimes feel it would be easier if I did, but am also considering in the future moving to a different part of Spain.

Anyway, everyone has to decide what is best for them according to their own personal circumstances. What is right for one family might not be right for another. I would also be interested to know how the OP gets on when they return, and how they feel about it. every time I have gone back to the UK for a visit I have felt that I dont really belong there anymore, which is weird, because sometimes I dont think I belong here either!

Caz.I


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## fourgotospain

Thanks for the welcome Jo!!

Just wanted to add in reply to Caz (and others like the OP who might have english children born in Spain) that everyone we have spoken to has been sure to point out the importance of keeping up their english skills - written literacy and number as well as spoken english. That way we will make sure to keep their options open for the future. As their english tuition/qualifications in Spain will be as a foreign language, we will probably end up having them do english lang and lit (and possibly maths) GCSE's even if it means finding a tutor locally to help. 

UCAS (the UK university entrance system) has now accepted the European Baccalaureate - the percentages vary, but even a basic pass on the EB is equivalent to CCC at A'level.

Hope this helps
Rachel x


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## fourgotospain

Sorry my mistake - just checked it again - a 60-69% score on the EB (a pass) is equivalent to 280-300 UCAS points (A'level grades BBC, BBB).


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## NorthernLass

Hi

I am new to this forum too. 

I just thought that I would add my experience.

We came to Spain nearly 2 years ago when my children were 9, 4 and 5 and 3 months. 

For my youngest , it has been fantastic. They go to a spanish school which has just 12 kids in each class. We live in an area that is totally Spanish. We are the only foreigners. It has been hard more for me than the children, because my spanish is not good. 

I have experience of both British primary system and Spanish system. I prefer the Spanish primary system in most aspects. It's not perfect but they are learning lots and my youngest can read both Spanish and English. The teachers are very affectionate with the kids and yet there is discipline too.

What I also like is that all the other parents look out for your kids and treat them with respect and affection. You don't find that in Britian often.

However, there are fewer opportunities for older children. Here is where I feel that Spain lacks prospects. However, I feel that my children have an advantage of knowing Spanish and English.

The only problem we have is that my husband's work. It is not a great wage and probably no chance of payrises. He feels that to get on the next rung of his career he has go work in the UK or Madrid. That may mean we all go back or he commutes. Commuting would also mean that I would be on my own most of the time with 4 young children, plus my spanish is not great at the moment. So this option may not possible. Perhaps if I spoke better Spanish and they were older it would be OK. 

When the day comes and we have to go, it will be very sad to leave. We have all made a life here and integrated as best we can, but it hopefully, we will be lucky to find good schools for my children. 

We will stay as long as we can. For our children, it is great life.


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## Pesky Wesky

NorthernLass said:


> Hi
> 
> I am new to this forum too.
> 
> I just thought that I would add my experience.
> 
> We came to Spain nearly 2 years ago when my children were 9, 4 and 5 and 3 months.
> 
> For my youngest , it has been fantastic. They go to a spanish school which has just 12 kids in each class. We live in an area that is totally Spanish. We are the only foreigners. It has been hard more for me than the children, because my spanish is not good.
> 
> I have experience of both British primary system and Spanish system. I prefer the Spanish primary system in most aspects. It's not perfect but they are learning lots and my youngest can read both Spanish and English. The teachers are very affectionate with the kids and yet there is discipline too.
> 
> What I also like is that all the other parents look out for your kids and treat them with respect and affection. You don't find that in Britian often.
> 
> However, there are fewer opportunities for older children. Here is where I feel that Spain lacks prospects. However, I feel that my children have an advantage of knowing Spanish and English.
> 
> The only problem we have is that my husband's work. It is not a great wage and probably no chance of payrises. He feels that to get on the next rung of his career he has go work in the UK or Madrid. That may mean we all go back or he commutes. Commuting would also mean that I would be on my own most of the time with 4 young children, plus my spanish is not great at the moment. So this option may not possible. Perhaps if I spoke better Spanish and they were older it would be OK.
> 
> When the day comes and we have to go, it will be very sad to leave. We have all made a life here and integrated as best we can, but it hopefully, we will be lucky to find good schools for my children.
> 
> We will stay as long as we can. For our children, it is great life.


Hi Northernlass,
I was interested to hear about your experience. It certainly reflects what many people have talked about on the forum, that in general the children pick up the language quicker and with that have less difficulties in intergrating and "managing" in Spain.
You seem to be happy with your life in Spain. It would be a pity to go back, so perhaps a move within Spain would be possible??
I'm also interested in your comment about there being fewer opportunities for older children. CazI. also refers to something like future opportunities and I think Jo has also said smth like this (??). What are you referring to, in what way are children or young adults limited here compared to UK? Can you explain, please


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## jojo

I think my opinion on opportunities in later life for kids in Spain is based on lack of knowledge on my part. I understand what happens in the UK and I know the system there - I dont in Spain and so I feel that in times of job shortages, unemployment and crisis then its better to be "home" in the UK. So my knowledge and comments maybe misplaced and wrong and I do need to investigate it further!! Also for my kids, coming to spain at the ages they did (11 and 13) means that they're never going to be totally bilingual and therefore that may resrict them from going to uni here or gaining employment. I have always assumed that my son would gain A levels here and then go to Uni in the UK, altho he wants to join the RAF. My daughter wants to be a vet or a popstar - she's just started State school (which is still going well BTW!!??!), so I dont know what the plan will be for her, but she's a bright girl (altho a lazy little madam!!!). But I want her to do well and maybe be good enough to go to Spanish College???? If not, UK College?? or Work in either country ???? - I dont know!!

Of course if she becomes a popstar................!!!


Jo xxx


But I could be wrong!! - it wouldnt be the first time!


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## Pesky Wesky

jojo said:


> I think my opinion on opportunities in later life for kids in Spain is based on lack of knowledge on my part. I understand what happens in the UK and I know the system there - I dont in Spain and so I feel that in times of job shortages, unemployment and crisis then its better to be "home" in the UK. So my knowledge and comments maybe misplaced and wrong and I do need to investigate it further!! Also for my kids, coming to spain at the ages they did (11 and 13) means that they're never going to be totally bilingual and therefore that may resrict them from going to uni here or gaining employment. I have always assumed that my son would gain A levels here and then go to Uni in the UK, altho he wants to join the RAF. My daughter wants to be a vet or a popstar - she's just started State school (which is still going well BTW!!??!), so I dont know what the plan will be for her, but she's a bright girl (altho a lazy little madam!!!). But I want her to do well and maybe be good enough to go to Spanish College???? If not, UK College?? or Work in either country ???? - I dont know!!
> 
> Of course if she becomes a popstar................!!!
> 
> 
> Jo xxx
> 
> 
> But I could be wrong!! - it wouldnt be the first time!


OK, I can understand that Jo. The only real insight I have to modern day British education are my 4 nephews, 3 of which left school with no qualifications whatsoever, and what i can pick up from friends and the papers and really, the end results don't seem to be that different, or are they?? I'd really like to hear from other people about this, so please post your comments.
Good to hear about your daughter. Don't under estimate your son's language ability, he may be better than you think. Perhaps he only needs a summer job and a romance to bring his Spanish level up


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## fourgotospain

Can't remember where I read it/was told it (sooo many conversations!) but I'm sure someone said that unless you have a spanish surname then, bilingual skills notwithstanding, the spanish guy who interviews after you will get the job. Another little bit of spanish EU equality! 

Will it change by the time our little darlings are through the system? Who knows. But I do know here in the UK graduates are sitting around unable to get a job in McD's AND it's raining, so it's really no better!

We're pretty lucky to have two sets of youngish grandparents happy to do their duty in the school hols and truck them around London and the museums to keep our girls in touch with their UK roots, so that they hopefully will feel comfortable in both cultures when they're older. We've always seen our future in 10 year blocks or so - the next ten will be in Spain, after that, take a guess!

BTW been following the saga Jojo - hope it's another good week!!!

Rachel x


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## Pesky Wesky

fourgotospain said:


> Can't remember where I read it/was told it (sooo many conversations!) but I'm sure someone said that unless you have a spanish surname then, bilingual skills notwithstanding, the spanish guy who interviews after you will get the job. Another little bit of spanish EU equality!
> 
> Will it change by the time our little darlings are through the system? Who knows. But I do know here in the UK graduates are sitting around unable to get a job in McD's AND it's raining, so it's really no better!
> 
> We're pretty lucky to have two sets of youngish grandparents happy to do their duty in the school hols and truck them around London and the museums to keep our girls in touch with their UK roots, so that they hopefully will feel comfortable in both cultures when they're older. We've always seen our future in 10 year blocks or so - the next ten will be in Spain, after that, take a guess!
> 
> BTW been following the saga Jojo - hope it's another good week!!!
> 
> Rachel x


If a company has to choose between 2 candidates with the same qualifications etc and one is Spanish and the other is British, in the UK the Brit will probably get the job and in Spain the Spaniard will probably get the job, don't you think?


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## jojo

Pesky Wesky said:


> If a company has to choose between 2 candidates with the same qualifications etc and one is Spanish and the other is British, in the UK the Brit will probably get the job and in Spain the Spaniard will probably get the job, don't you think?



ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! In the UK, my OH has been sent several directives telling him that if he has two candidates and one is foreign, he must have a very good excuse NOT to employ the foreigner! In other words. its reverse discrimination

Jo xxx


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## fourgotospain

You got it Jo!!

No doubt covered in that equal opp memo were the issues of race, disabilities and sexual orientation too...


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## Pesky Wesky

jojo said:


> ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! In the UK, my OH has been sent several directives telling him that if he has two candidates and one is foreign, he must have a very good excuse NOT to employ the foreigner! In other words. its reverse discrimination
> 
> Jo xxx


I stand corrected.


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## NorthernLass

Pesky Wesky said:


> Hi Northernlass,
> I was interested to hear about your experience. It certainly reflects what many people have talked about on the forum, that in general the children pick up the language quicker and with that have less difficulties in intergrating and "managing" in Spain.
> You seem to be happy with your life in Spain. It would be a pity to go back, so perhaps a move within Spain would be possible??
> I'm also interested in your comment about there being fewer opportunities for older children. CazI. also refers to something like future opportunities and I think Jo has also said smth like this (??). What are you referring to, in what way are children or young adults limited here compared to UK? Can you explain, please



Hi - I will try to explain why I think Spain has less opportunities for my children.

The simple fact is that they are not Spanish. They will always be foreigners even thought they speak Spanish fluently. That will always hinder them when it comes to finding jobs etc.

I am confident that they would be fine in Spain if we stay, but they would have to move to Madrid for the best opportunities. 

For the here and now, my daughter who is 11 wants to be actor and wants acting lessons and there is nothing of the sort here. However, in the UK every town has drama clubs etc for young people. So even at the moment, she does not have the opportunity to try things that are readily available in the UK.

Who knows Spain will be like in 10 years - what opportunities are available but I do feel that the UK is way way ahead in providing many avenues of choice.

I live in a typical Northern town in Spain and can see that the Spanish struggle for work and change jobs. Even though, alot may depend on the "recession".

I help a Spanish women here to practice her English. Her husband was out of work for six months and found a job in Castillon near Alicante. She has to stay here and work while she finds another job. She has a good degree but cannot find anything. She is very presentable and her English is good. Now I am certain that if she was in the UK, she would have no problem with work. So unbelievable! 

I have also read of people's experience of people struggle, especially women in Spain with low wages, -isms (and I have 3 girls) and nepotism. All stuff that the UK are way ahead again.

These are the things that go through my mind when I think of my children's future in Spain. If we stay in Spain, I would encourage all of them to widen and broaden their horizons. To venture to new countries and try new things. They don't have to stay in Spain.


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## Pesky Wesky

NorthernLass said:


> Hi - I will try to explain why I think Spain has less opportunities for my children.
> 
> The simple fact is that they are not Spanish. They will always be foreigners even thought they speak Spanish fluently. That will always hinder them when it comes to finding jobs etc.
> 
> I am confident that they would be fine in Spain if we stay, but they would have to move to Madrid for the best opportunities.
> 
> For the here and now, my daughter who is 11 wants to be actor and wants acting lessons and there is nothing of the sort here. However, in the UK every town has drama clubs etc for young people. So even at the moment, she does not have the opportunity to try things that are readily available in the UK.
> 
> Who knows Spain will be like in 10 years - what opportunities are available but I do feel that the UK is way way ahead in providing many avenues of choice.
> 
> I live in a typical Northern town in Spain and can see that the Spanish struggle for work and change jobs. Even though, alot may depend on the "recession".
> 
> I help a Spanish women here to practice her English. Her husband was out of work for six months and found a job in Castillon near Alicante. She has to stay here and work while she finds another job. She has a good degree but cannot find anything. She is very presentable and her English is good. Now I am certain that if she was in the UK, she would have no problem with work. So unbelievable!
> 
> I have also read of people's experience of people struggle, especially women in Spain with low wages, -isms (and I have 3 girls) and nepotism. All stuff that the UK are way ahead again.
> 
> These are the things that go through my mind when I think of my children's future in Spain. If we stay in Spain, I would encourage all of them to widen and broaden their horizons. To venture to new countries and try new things. They don't have to stay in Spain.


Thanks!
That is food for thought for me and I'd like to *talk* to you and everybody about it, but have to do some stuff now, so hopefully I'll be around this evening!


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## CostaCookie

Very interested reading your post Northern Lass as you say a lot of what I feel about the future of our kids if we were to stay in Spain. I can't see a decent future for them, definitely not where we live on the Coast. For that reason, we're moving as we feel we can offer them more opportunities at home. 
A friend that moved back home earlier this year after a break up with her Spanish husband has said, in her opinion, there's so much more for her daughter to do in UK than there was here - in the form of clubs & activities. She is glad she made the move after lots of soul searching. She has a degree & is very bright, but was cleaning for a living while here.


----------



## Caz.I

Pesky Wesky said:


> Hi Northernlass,
> I was interested to hear about your experience. It certainly reflects what many people have talked about on the forum, that in general the children pick up the language quicker and with that have less difficulties in intergrating and "managing" in Spain.
> You seem to be happy with your life in Spain. It would be a pity to go back, so perhaps a move within Spain would be possible??
> I'm also interested in your comment about there being fewer opportunities for older children. CazI. also refers to something like future opportunities and I think Jo has also said smth like this (??). What are you referring to, in what way are children or young adults limited here compared to UK? Can you explain, please



Hi Pesky,
When I mentioned lack of future prospects, I meant after leaving school more than anything, particularly where I am on the Costa del Sol. I felt that the range of job opportunities are mainly limited to tourism and the property business. That young people are usually taken on because companies can pay them badly and get away with it and that opportunities for promotion are limited too. And that wages here are usually extremely low in general. Just feel there are more diverse career choices in the UK, unless in Madrid/Barcelona.

Plus, I may have misunderstood but I get the impression from talking to some of my students that if you go to university, you have to choose a particular career path that you have to stick to and its difficult to change careers once you have done your degree.

Caz.I


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## jojo

NorthernLass said:


> Hi - I will try to explain why I think Spain has less opportunities for my children.
> 
> The simple fact is that they are not Spanish. They will always be foreigners even thought they speak Spanish fluently. That will always hinder them when it comes to finding jobs etc.
> 
> I am confident that they would be fine in Spain if we stay, but they would have to move to Madrid for the best opportunities.
> 
> For the here and now, my daughter who is 11 wants to be actor and wants acting lessons and there is nothing of the sort here. However, in the UK every town has drama clubs etc for young people. So even at the moment, she does not have the opportunity to try things that are readily available in the UK.
> 
> Who knows Spain will be like in 10 years - what opportunities are available but I do feel that the UK is way way ahead in providing many avenues of choice.
> 
> I live in a typical Northern town in Spain and can see that the Spanish struggle for work and change jobs. Even though, alot may depend on the "recession".
> 
> I help a Spanish women here to practice her English. Her husband was out of work for six months and found a job in Castillon near Alicante. She has to stay here and work while she finds another job. She has a good degree but cannot find anything. She is very presentable and her English is good. Now I am certain that if she was in the UK, she would have no problem with work. So unbelievable!
> 
> I have also read of people's experience of people struggle, especially women in Spain with low wages, -isms (and I have 3 girls) and nepotism. All stuff that the UK are way ahead again.
> 
> These are the things that go through my mind when I think of my children's future in Spain. If we stay in Spain, I would encourage all of them to widen and broaden their horizons. To venture to new countries and try new things. They don't have to stay in Spain.


Its so difficult isnt it! I agree with you about the opportunities, altho the one thing that keeps echoing in my head is what my husband keeps saying, that the UK is no longer the place it used to be and he's not keen on the idea of the kids going back there! My husband is a man who has a business in the UK commutes every week and has always loved the UK and been proud to be "British", he's never settled in Spain and has always wanted us to go back - until now! So, if he is, for the first time ever, running the UK and its opportunities down, then there's a problem! 

I'm not saying that Spain is any better, but in a few years time who knows where will be a good place to be?????

Jo xxx


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## NorthernLass

jojo said:


> Its so difficult isnt it! I agree with you about the opportunities, altho the one thing that keeps echoing in my head is what my husband keeps saying, that the UK is no longer the place it used to be and he's not keen on the idea of the kids going back there! My husband is a man who has a business in the UK commutes every week and has always loved the UK and been proud to be "British", he's never settled in Spain and has always wanted us to go back - until now! So, if he is, for the first time ever, running the UK and its opportunities down, then there's a problem!
> 
> I'm not saying that Spain is any better, but in a few years time who knows where will be a good place to be?????
> 
> Jo xxx


My head spins sometimes !!

I agree that the UK is not a great place at the moment. There is alot of discontentment with the government, the media plays the tune and determines the mindset of the people. The recession is making life difficult for many. 

So until these areas change, I don't think we are in a rush to go back..

I feel it is a shame that the people of the UK are fed alot of negativity from the TV, and newspapers. The Spanish do not have this influence as such, as the newspapers and TV is more controlled. Hence, the view that Spain is better than the UK is determined. 

I do not want to return to the UK now, the times are uncertain. My husband has a job that he likes here, our kids are in school and love it here. 

But when the time is right, we will most likely return. But only when the time is right.


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## jojo

NorthernLass said:


> My head spins sometimes !!
> 
> I agree that the UK is not a great place at the moment. There is alot of discontentment with the government, the media plays the tune and determines the mindset of the people. The recession is making life difficult for many.
> 
> So until these areas change, I don't think we are in a rush to go back..
> 
> I feel it is a shame that the people of the UK are fed alot of negativity from the TV, and newspapers. The Spanish do not have this influence as such, as the newspapers and TV is more controlled. Hence, the view that Spain is better than the UK is determined.


Good grief, I could have written that - we're definately "singing from the same hymm sheet!" lol

Jo xxx


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## fourgotospain

Totally agree with the thoughts above. It's another one of the reasons we chose Spain to move to over the traditional Oz/NZ - that we can go back if we want to down the road. Commitment to their schooling is our priority now, and as discussed above it's about giving them transferable skills so that if they decide in the future that they wish to return to where they were born, it won't be too much of a problem. I have to confess too that thoughts similar to Northern Lass' comments about clubs and activities have influenced our decision to move to a more expat area than rural spain.

She's right about the negaive press too - it's awful, the minutae of dicussion a true symptom of a country that is apathetic and trading on a once 'great' reputation.


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## Hombre

She's right about the negaive press too - it's awful, the minutae of dicussion a true symptom of a country that is apathetic and trading on a once 'great' reputation.[/QUOTE]

This one line goes right to the nub of what is wrong with the UK>


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## lynn

fourgotospain said:


> Totally agree with the thoughts above. It's another one of the reasons we chose Spain to move to over the traditional Oz/NZ - that we can go back if we want to down the road. Commitment to their schooling is our priority now, and as discussed above it's about giving them transferable skills so that if they decide in the future that they wish to return to where they were born, it won't be too much of a problem. I have to confess too that thoughts similar to Northern Lass' comments about clubs and activities have influenced our decision to move to a more expat area than rural spain.
> 
> She's right about the negaive press too - it's awful, the minutae of dicussion a true symptom of a country that is apathetic and trading on a once 'great' reputation.


I'm afraid I feel nothing but relief to be away from the endless round of taxi driving associated with the 'clubs and acrivities' children in the UK are expected to do. My three children have participated in swimming, football, cricket, athletics, ballet/tap, trampoline, flute/piano/violin, cubs, beavers, scouts (probably others but I could be here all day!). Its no life at all. Its wrong to think that the children are going to be deficient if they don't have a full curriculum vitae of skills and experiences. In most cases, the parent just feels stressed by the pressure of it all and the kids are burnt out. Now we are here in Spain and we spend time simply enjoying things together without the paid 'coaching' ie playing cricket on the beach or going for a walk. Our family life is calmer and closer and a lot cheaper! Their curriculum vitae will look more interesting just by the very fact that they have broadened their horizons.


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## Pesky Wesky

I couldn't get online last night, such a shame because there's so much to comment on in this thread. It's really interesting for me as I have a 15 year old Spanish daughter who is has a great level of English, but isn't bilingual. My husband wanted to send her to England for a year, and I just couldn't. Besides missing her like crazy I would be so worried about her going to a British secondary school. Yes, it was me me me when I should have been thinking about her her her...
I've just read through everything again and I think that sometimes when people say Spain they mean "*The area where I live*". For example there aren't any activities for children. My daughter has done athletics, pottery, environmental studies, dance, swimming, music etc etc. Every year she's done 1 activity right here in the town we live in within 15 mins walking of our urbanizacion. We live in the *Comunidad de Madrid*, but not in the city of Madrid. 90% of the activities were subsidised by the town hall and our town hall is not a wealthy one... If you're in a small town in the UK I imagine there'd be a smaller range of children's activities than if you lived in a medium sized or large town.
The same for job opportunities. My parents live in a seaside town on the south coast in the UK where unemployment rose by 122 per cent this year, and that was reported in August of this year!! So, unemployment is bad here and it's bad there, it depends where you are. If you live on the Costas here your children may find it more difficult to find work in that same area. But, what about the idea of your children moving away to work or study in another area. Isn't that a possibility? Do children still move away from home when they go to university in England? That's what I did, a long time ago admitidly and I don't know if that's the trend nowadays. I think that the opportunities maybe there, but not necessarily in your immediate area. 
Some people have said that as their children are not Spanish or won't be totally bilingual they won't have so many job opportunities available to them. I really don't think that's the case. There are so many multinationals here from the US or Europe. I think having English as your mother language with a good level of Spanish and a knowledge of Spain itself is a positive advantage. You do need to have qualifications (as you do anywhere to get a decent job) and to work here you'll need some level of Spanish but the jobs will be there
I don't have to decide if I go back or not because I've got nothing to go back to, but I think there are so many positives to living here (some of which are mentioned in this thread)and bringing up children here that emigrating to the UK is not something we are considering. Of course my own circumstances give me a different viewpoint probably.


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## NorthernLass

I also think there are pros and cons to both the UK and Spain.

For many with children, being away from extended family is hard. When I was in the UK, my extended family lived 4 hours drive away. So nothing different.

What is personally hard for me, is not having the language. If I was fluent in spanish I would absolutely love it here.

Without being able to communicate - especially with teachers and other moms - it is very lonely and isolating.

Here in the North of Spain - the weather may not be as warm as the south / east coast but it is better than the UK. It rains alot, but generally it is warmer and brighter. 

My children finish school at 2.30pm. We have lunch and on Mons / Weds / Fri there is basketball for my daughter (11) and son (6). My son loves its - has a lot of energy! On Tues / Thurs my son and other daughter (7) have karate. Both love it. 

My eldest daughter is not sporty at all, but I feel she needs to socialise and exercise. She doesn't enjoy it and keeps on asking for acting lessons, but there is nothing available (there is sport, music, gymnastics, beadings/mosaics, tennis, football etc) She loves books and reads alot (like me too). English books are impossible to find, not even in the library, so we order them from amazon (which isn't cheap). 

After karate I take my son to the town plaza to meet up with his pals, he takes his bike. It is great because it doesn't get dark till 6pm unlike the UK when its dark around 4.30pm. I meet up with one of the moms who we intercambio).

The problem we have is mainly my husbands work. His wages just about keep us going but it really isn't cheap in Spain. Clothes are expensive. In the UK I didn't worry this much about finances. I could work myself, maybe teaching English but I wouldn't see my children much as most jobs are in the afternoons and evenings. 

Things like the dentist and opticians are so expensive too. My son had a filling yesterday and it cost 50 euros. He has to have another one in two weeks - so another 50 euros! My daughter lost her glasses - cost me 239 euros for another pair. List goes on and on. 

I don't mind paying everything for my children but we have to earn it. Earning a decent pay in Spain is difficult. 

Each family situation is different. IF my husband had a well paying job or I could work too. It is all IFs really.

We are also lucky that we do have a house back in the UK to go back too. The main negatives of the UK are the traffic and the cold winter dark nights. So I suppose the move back would be purely financial.

Hope this hasn't come out too rambling.


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## fourgotospain

Lynn - I couldn't agree more with the activities agenda! Last year we made a concious decision to cut down on the endless after school stuff - pick one activity, one evening a week. I think kids need time to PLAY at home, and learn how to amuse themselves rather than being entertained constantly. They do more things in the holidays as there are quite a few holiday courses around where we live. 

Pesky Wesky - great comment! We currently live in a city in the UK where everything is 5-10 mins away (for the next 8 weeks!) but know friends in more remote areas who are taking their kids to activities up to 40 mins drive away. Horses for courses but I'm not up for that!
I wonder about the job opps in Spain for non-spanish youngsters with spanish qualifications? I know in France that makes a big difference over international schooling. As you say in the UK the job market outside the main centres is bad, and the same sectors (construction, car production etc) are suffering as in Spain. There aren't even many Christmas temp jobs around this year - just regular staff doing more overtime.

Here children still move away from home to go to University but I think traditionally in Spain that's not the case? Maybe it a financial thing as well as a family thing - the UK student loans system gets a lot of flak, but it is enough to support young people at uni so that they don't need to live at home. Of course they then have £20K+ to pay off when they've finished. I can't imagine sending my child to live in another country at 15! Well done for putting your foot down! I would think a 'gap year' in the Uk after school might be quite helpful though?

Anyway MUST get off the internet and do some housework!!
Rachel x


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## Pesky Wesky

fourgotospain said:


> Lynn - I couldn't agree more with the activities agenda! Last year we made a concious decision to cut down on the endless after school stuff - pick one activity, one evening a week. I think kids need time to PLAY at home, and learn how to amuse themselves rather than being entertained constantly. They do more things in the holidays as there are quite a few holiday courses around where we live.
> 
> Pesky Wesky - great comment! We currently live in a city in the UK where everything is 5-10 mins away (for the next 8 weeks!) but know friends in more remote areas who are taking their kids to activities up to 40 mins drive away. Horses for courses but I'm not up for that!
> I wonder about the job opps in Spain for non-spanish youngsters with spanish qualifications? I know in France that makes a big difference over international schooling. As you say in the UK the job market outside the main centres is bad, and the same sectors (construction, car production etc) are suffering as in Spain. There aren't even many Christmas temp jobs around this year - just regular staff doing more overtime.
> 
> Here children still move away from home to go to University but I think traditionally in Spain that's not the case? Maybe it a financial thing as well as a family thing - the UK student loans system gets a lot of flak, but it is enough to support young people at uni so that they don't need to live at home. Of course they then have £20K+ to pay off when they've finished. I can't imagine sending my child to live in another country at 15! Well done for putting your foot down! I would think a 'gap year' in the Uk after school might be quite helpful though?
> 
> Anyway MUST get off the internet and do some housework!!
> Rachel x


 
Thanks for the info about uni stds.
As for the housework, I'm "cleaning the bedroom" and "getting lunch ready"!!
More posts later, I hope!


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## jojo

There isnt the same pressure here in Spain to do so many "afterschool activities" IMO. We used to do various clubs etc in the UK to keep the kids from wanting to "walk the streets" and get into trouble. But here they seem happy enough to play in the fields or just be at home - there isnt the same "lets go out" mentality and theres more of a family centred lifestyle.

My son is just about to start playing golf on a Saturday morning and my daughter goes to pony club most Saturdays and has just started helping out at the local donkey sacturary on Sunday mornings and thats about it!!

But as for the future - who knows, its best to keep all options open and not to close any doors or windows of opportunity - my son's convinced the world's gonna end in 2012 anyway and often tries to use that excuse for not doing his homework!!!!!????

Yep, back to the domestic chores, the washing wont hang itself out LOL!!

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky

fourgotospain said:


> Lynn - I couldn't agree more with the activities agenda! Last year we made a concious decision to cut down on the endless after school stuff - pick one activity, one evening a week. I think kids need time to PLAY at home, and learn how to amuse themselves rather than being entertained constantly. They do more things in the holidays as there are quite a few holiday courses around where we live.
> 
> Pesky Wesky - great comment! We currently live in a city in the UK where everything is 5-10 mins away (for the next 8 weeks!) but know friends in more remote areas who are taking their kids to activities up to 40 mins drive away. Horses for courses but I'm not up for that!
> I wonder about the job opps in Spain for non-spanish youngsters with spanish qualifications? I know in France that makes a big difference over international schooling. As you say in the UK the job market outside the main centres is bad, and the same sectors (construction, car production etc) are suffering as in Spain. There aren't even many Christmas temp jobs around this year - just regular staff doing more overtime.
> 
> Here children still move away from home to go to University but I think traditionally in Spain that's not the case? Maybe it a financial thing as well as a family thing - the UK student loans system gets a lot of flak, but it is enough to support young people at uni so that they don't need to live at home. Of course they then have £20K+ to pay off when they've finished. I can't imagine sending my child to live in another country at 15! Well done for putting your foot down! I would think a 'gap year' in the Uk after school might be quite helpful though?
> 
> Anyway MUST get off the internet and do some housework!!
> Rachel x


I agree that the whole after school activity scene can get out of hand and I know people whose children do something every day of the week or do two activities on one school night! As you say I'm not up for that, but most parents are trying to do the best for their children. IMO it's good to have the opportunity to do it if you want.

As for the education/ job scene, as northern lass and Jo said there are of course pros and cons in both countries and I can understand that if things are looking dodgy you're going to go back to the system you can manage best. I was just worried that all of you had seen something blindingly obviously wrong with Spain as opposed to UK, but from what I can make out it we're talking about the usual language and regional problems - not really problems about Spain.

University. I think most students around here live at home still, although there are some who move away from home to go to uni. If they live in a smaller place that doesn't have a uni near then they wouldn't be able to. I think it's more of an econmical decision which has now become the traditional way of doing things. Living at home isn't a great solution, but the having 20K to pay off once you've finished your degree doesn't sound very attractive either!

And a footnote, I didn't really have to put my foot down about my daughter. Originally my oH and I cooked up the idea together, but I chickened out.


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## mrypg9

jojo said:


> ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! In the UK, my OH has been sent several directives telling him that if he has two candidates and one is foreign, he must have a very good excuse NOT to employ the foreigner! In other words. its reverse discrimination
> 
> Jo xxx


But surely you would only refuse to give someone a job if they were not suitable? Any employer who refused to give someone who was well-qualified any advertised job simply because they were black, gay, female, disabled etc etc would be very stupid as well as bigoted.
The legislation requiring employers not to discriminate on the grounds of gender, race, disability etc etc is not specific to the UK. It actually became UK law because of a European Union Directive and it applies to all EU states except the Czech Republic, although they will no doubt now come into line having signed up to the Lisbon Treaty.
I was part of the UK Government consultation process with employers and other interested parties before the EU legislation was drafted into UK law, beginning in 2003, if I remember correctly.
There is a lot of misunderstanding, some of it wilful, about this law, but it was welcomed by the largest employer federations. I do agree though that especially for smaller employers there is an awful lot of new law to get to grips with, although there are exemptions from most of these new regulations for small businesses. But you have to keep up with it all.It's clear from posts on this forum that some employers aren't aware that dismissed employees are entitled to holiday pay accrued!
We once had a crazy situation where we had a Portuguese applicant for a job as a HGV technician. He had all the qualifications but one - he didn't speak English and brought his wife to the interview to interpret.
Although he was the only applicant with precognised qualifications we turned him down quite legitimately on the grounds that being able to speak English was a GOR (Genuine Occupational Requirement) for that particular job.
Most employers are only too aware of the shortage of qualified, experienced labour of all kinds so only the dimmest would wilfully discriminate on any grounds.


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## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> But surely you would only refuse to give someone a job if they were not suitable? Any employer who refused to give someone who was well-qualified any advertised job simply because they were black, gay, female, disabled etc etc would be very stupid as well as bigoted.
> The legislation requiring employers not Tto discriminate on the grounds of gender, race, disability etc etc is not specific to the UK. It actually became UK law because of a European Union Directive and it applies to all EU states except the Czech Republic, although they will no doubt now come into line having signed up to the Lisbon Treaty.
> I was part of the UK Government consultation process with employers and other interested parties before the EU legislation was drafted into UK law, beginning in 2003, if I remember correctly.
> There is a lot of misunderstanding, some of it wilful, about this law, but it was welcomed by the largest employer federations. It's clear from posts on this forum that some employers aren't awate that dismissed employees are entitled to holiday pay accrued!
> Most employers are only too aware of the shortage of qualified, experienced labour of all kinds so only the dimmest would wilfully discrimnate on any grounds.


I wish you'd posted this before he went back to the UK earlier today, cos he was absolutely furious with it. I cant remember the exact wording, but he's actually kept this directive. He says it is totally discriminating of indiginous applicants. Anyway, its put him off employing anyone at all, eventho he could do with someone, instead he uses casual or subcontracts which is easier, altho not ideal!

My OHs company is only small, but it applied to him just as to larger companies

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9

jojo said:


> I wish you'd posted this before he went back to the UK earlier today, cos he was absolutely furious with it. I cant remember the exact wording, but he's actually kept this directive. He says it is totally discriminating of indiginous applicants. Anyway, its put him off employing anyone at all, eventho he could do with someone, instead he uses casual or subcontracts which is easier, altho not ideal!
> 
> My OHs company is only small, but it applied to him just as to larger companies
> 
> Jo xxx


The law absolutely does not require reverse discrimination, tell him. Discrimination is illegal on the grounds of gender, race, disability - as it was in UK law for yonks before the EU Directive -and sexual orientation, ethnicity/religion and age were added because of the Directive. All an employer has to do is not to allow prejudice on any of those six grounds to affect his/her decision when awarding a job. I'm sure you'd agree that is right and proper
IMHO Tony Blair's Government was not keen on having to incorporate this legislation into British law. The only area where difficulties could arise is the conflict between religion and sexual orientation but then I can't imagine a gay man wanting to work in a mosque or any woman, heterosexual or lesbian wanting to either
But then there are limited provisions for opt-outs for religious organisations.
Most people only know about laws like this when they read some hyped-up 'story' in The Sun or the Daily Mail and nearly every case is untrue or at most highly exaggerated. 
Mind you, when I think back on the reams and reams of documents, most in lawyer-speak, that I had to plough through for the DTI Consultation meetings.....I don't blame people for not looking into these kinds of things more deeply.
I recently had a clear-out of loads of old papers now I'm not involved in these things any more and I could have reconstituted a forest out of them....
The important thing to bear in mind is that the UK was among the last EU member states to adopt the legislation required by the Directive. France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Holland etc. etc. have had these laws for several years now and with no fuss.


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## mrypg9

And thanks for putting Hayley's link at the end of your posts. I'd lost it when my previous laptop packed up in May.


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## Motley

Try play.com or bookdepository.co.uk which both offer FREE worldwide delivery. 
I have bought books for teaching from both and found them very good.
Obviously compare the price if the book you want from these and amazon.


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## Pesky Wesky

Motley said:


> Try play.com or bookdepository.co.uk which both offer FREE worldwide delivery.
> I have bought books for teaching from both and found them very good.
> Obviously compare the price if the book you want from these and amazon.


 
UUUMMM... Did this get posted on the right thread?
Useful info anyway!

And on the topic of "UK v Spain for bringing up children" Last night there was a programme on the telly about Spaniards living in other countries. They were in Polynesia I think and a Spanish women said something along the lines of "It's a great place for children. It's much safer and they have more freedom here than in Spain"Just what a lot of us say about living in Spain compared to UK. The grass is always greener...


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## Motley

Sorry.
It was in reply to Northern Lass regarding getting books for children - post 37.


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## Maya01

Just thought I'd add my reply as we're considering moving back to England after our daughter finishes Bachillerato, next June. She's planning to go back to Uni in England but we have 2 younger boys to also consider - by next summer they'll be aged 11 and 14.

We've been here 6 years and all 3 children are at Spanish schools. Our daughter totally immersed herself in the new culture, made friends and thrived. We're encouraging her to go to Uni back in England so she can make the comparison between Spain and England and actually experience living in the British culture. She wants to do a mathematical engineering degree and so far she has the grades required to get into a UK Uni so I definitely can't complain about the Spanish education system.

Our reasons for considering a move back now are for several reasons but the children always remain top priority in the decision making which makes it a more difficult decision! 

A) For the first year or so my husband kept his business set up in England and paid tax and NI there but once we knew we were staying he registered in Spain and has been paying tax and social security here. However, we recently found out that if he doesn't have any work he's not entitled to any unemployment because he's autonomo. His 5 year's social security payments of around €250 per month only cover health care and his pension. Work is getting harder to come by so I'm really concerned what will happen if he doesn't get enough work to make ends meet.

As for employment prospects, for my children, on the CdS - there's really only tourism and the building trade.

Friends of ours have been here almost 30 years and they're now going back to England. Their children were babies when they came here and went through Spanish schools but each have gradually moved to England - temporarily at first but each ended up staying there.

B) My husband bought a house here 5 years ago but its being repossessed by the bank and the court have told us it will be done around January/February. He will be liable for the money forever with interest compounding at 29% per year - they can even take anything he might leave in his will but as he doesn't have any other assets he's unlikely to have anything to leave in his will. We ran in to problems when the roof fell in and the insurance wouldn't pay for the buildings or contents insurance. We were in England at the time so were just grateful to be alive and that none of us were hurt but we didn't realise the insurance wouldn't pay! We couldn't live in the house and lost virtually all our belongings so its been tough financially for the past couple of years and now with the recession.......

We took legal advice from 4 different lawyers and all said we can pursue the insurance company through the courts but it will end up costing the same as a new roof so we decided to save for the roof rather than pay a lawyer and wait 2 years to go to court and maybe lose. The bank saw fit to renew the insurance policy and we saw red! We stopped paying the mortgage trying to get them to cancel the insurance and give us our money back but it didn't work - seems they can have it all ways. This summer we'd finally saved enough for the roof so my husband went to pay the mortgage arrears. He was told the late charges and interest amount and went back to pay that the next day only to find they'd doubled it. He asked them to confirm in writing that if he paid that amount there'd be no more charges - they refused but told us the fees had now gone up to a mind boggling €20,000?!?! That's not mortgage arrears, that's fees, charges, interest that started at around €1300 and a couple of weeks later reached €20k. We can't pay that - we don't have that kind of money so we have to let the house go. By the way, that amount has now gone up to €42,000 on the court documents we've received.

We've tried so hard to integrate, be legal here, pay taxes, pay social security, give work to local Spaniards, etc, etc, and its basically got us nowhere and we're about to end up with a huge handful of nothing!

Do I really want my children growing up here? I just can't for the life of me see what we could have done differently to prevent this and the legal system just seems so corrupt. I've heard from so many people that have found out their property isn't legal so they have fines or the threat of their homes being bulldozed. Others that have purchased with bank guarantees but the property has never been finished and they're stuck in legal no man's land. Lawyers who lose vital bits of paper, etc, etc. I hate to sound so negative because we really wanted this to be 'home' and it has been for 6 years but what does all this corruption teach my kids? 

We live inland from the CdS and I am totally bored. Everyone I met here has left or is leaving. It's difficult to make friends when people come and go so often and there aren't even many coming now. It's not good for my children to see me at home all day and not really doing anything with my life. I don't speak fluent Spanish although I can understand most of what is being said to me. It's difficult to learn to speak it when the neighbours all speak English and decide its quicker to converse in that language.

My sons do swimming and karate and have friends but they don't really go out playing after school. Their friends all do the extra classes (classes particulares?) because their parents put so much pressure on them to do well at school. Some are grounded for a whole term if they fail just 1 subject! My daughter has a great social life so maybe its a boy thing. My 14 year old son's friends do the extra classes and also have to work on their campo properties so they really don't have much time for playing out.

I don't know what to do for the best for them really. The house situation is definitely clouding my judgement at the moment so it's probably a good thing that we haven't got to decide till next June! In the meantime my husband will either have to work illegally to stop the bank taking what he earns or set up his business as a Ltd company back in the UK and go back to paying taxes and national insurance there. Not really ideal either way and certainly not an example we want to set for our children - how to skirt around the system! I'm sad that we have to do that but the alternative will be to live on the streets, cold and hungry and that's not an example I want to show them either! If we hadn't had insurance I'd hold my hands up to say we deserve our situation but we had insurance, in good faith, and did everything we possibly could. I don't want to have to become a corrupt person that skirts around any system - I'm good, kind and honest and have always taught me children to be that way.

Sorry to be so long winded and sound all doom and gloom but I'm scared of my own shadow at the moment and haven't got a clue which way to jump!  It's not just about fresh air, freedom, sunshine and the school systems - there's far more to take into account with bringing kids up here or back in the UK. Pros and cons both sides of the coin and no doubt different for everyone. Our case is pretty extreme but its having a negative effect on my kids and makes me wonder why we're struggling to stay here.


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## jojo

phew, that was a long and a very sad post, Thanks for sharing and maybe it helped you think clearer by writing it down. I hope so.

I can see you're in a desperate situation. Is going back to the UK your best option ?? - well it depends what and where you're going back to? To go back just for your childrens sake puts a bit of a burden on them if they think thats why you're going. I'm not sure their lives would be any easier or better - but then I would say that cos I left the UK for my children to be in Spain. That said, I do wonder where mine will end up, altho I dont plan go back there with them when they hit their uni years, if thats what they choose to do. I agree that there possibly isnt much in the way of oportunities in Spain, but are there any more in the UK?? And as for their lives now and friends to play out with, I have the same issue with my 14 yo son and altho I wish he would go out more, I often hear about his old friends in the UK and they're turning into the kind of lads I didnt want him to be like (hanging around street corners, drinking, girls, etc..)

In the end, as a family you have to give the kids security and a stable upbringing, be it here or there. As a family you're "up in the air" for lots of reasons and those reasons are all intertwined with each other. Keep being honest and true to you convictions. Remember also that the grass isnt always greener on the other side. My husband commutes and even he (an England lover) says that in the last 6 months the UK has become a very different and unpleasant place to be. So before rushing back there, take a good look at your day to day lives in Spain and try to envisage how your lives would be in the UK

Not much help really am I lol


Jo xxx


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## maxd

I would seriously look at this:

BBC NEWS | UK | UK is accused of failing children

The UK is a selfish place full of social ills and places little importance on family life. If I did go back to the UK I would move to a place that has a good school in it's catchment area.


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## Caz.I

Maya01 said:


> This summer we'd finally saved enough for the roof so my husband went to pay the mortgage arrears. He was told the late charges and interest amount and went back to pay that the next day only to find they'd doubled it. He asked them to confirm in writing that if he paid that amount there'd be no more charges - they refused but told us the fees had now gone up to a mind boggling €20,000?!?! That's not mortgage arrears, that's fees, charges, interest that started at around €1300 and a couple of weeks later reached €20k. We can't pay that - we don't have that kind of money so we have to let the house go. By the way, that amount has now gone up to €42,000 on the court documents we've received.
> 
> .


Really sorry to hear about your situation - cant you appeal the costs through the court and demand a detailed explanation of the charges. It sounds very suspicious, particularly doubling the fees the following day. Arent they legally obliged to provide them? Someone has got to stand up to the banks habit of making money out of people's misery.

Good luck,
Caz.I


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## fourgotospain

_The UK is a selfish place full of social ills and places little importance on family life. If I did go back to the UK I would move to a place that has a good school in it's catchment area. 
_

It'll cost you an extra 50,000 though for the same size house as the one next to the grotty comp 2 miles away. Dependant on how many kids you've got, it could be cheaper to send them privately!!
The corruption in the UK is either written into the law, or just isn't talked about openly.


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## maxd

fourgotospain said:


> _The UK is a selfish place full of social ills and places little importance on family life. If I did go back to the UK I would move to a place that has a good school in it's catchment area.
> _
> 
> It'll cost you an extra 50,000 though for the same size house as the one next to the grotty comp 2 miles away. Dependant on how many kids you've got, it could be cheaper to send them privately!!
> The corruption in the UK is either written into the law, or just isn't talked about openly.


Read in the paper last week that is was an extra 20k.

Yes, the Uk is a horrible self-centred place where there is a high cost of living and little morality left.

Spain has a good family vibe but I know nothing about education there.


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## Stravinsky

maxd said:


> Read in the paper last week that is was an extra 20k.
> 
> Yes, the Uk is a horrible self-centred place where there is a high cost of living and little morality left.
> 
> Spain has a good family vibe but I know nothing about education there.


But its still a beautiful country!


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## jojo

Stravinsky said:


> But its still a beautiful country!


Spain is a truly wonderful country, the views, the scenery and the snese of freedom and open spaces, even now, still blow me away. I wake up every morning and the view from my bedroom window is spectacular. In the UK we lived on a busy "A" road, it was always grey - even the atmosphere and people seemed grey

But that said, its an individual thing, we all have different ideals and wishes for our lives and that of our children, so you cant ever tell anyone whats best for them

Jo xxx


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## Maya01

LOL - Did sound rather gloomy didn't it! Yesterday was a very bad day when it all felt as though it was closing in but doesn't seem quite so bad today.

We wouldn't be going back just because of the children and I certainly wouldn't put that burden on them. We have loads to consider but feel a little under pressure due to timing. Eldest will be at Uni in the UK (not near where we'll be living), youngest is still only 11 but our other son will be 14 so if we're in the UK he'd be starting GCSEs along with everyone else. If we wait another year then he'll have missed the 1st 12 months of GCSE and have to catch up. Just seems logical that if we make the move then we do it next summer.

Having said that, we wouldn't be considering it if we hadn't had all the problems with our house. It's just been a very difficult couple of years and really pushed things to a head. Will it be over once the house has gone or will we have more to come? It's been very tough on our kids for the past 2 years - there's no hiding the pressure we've been under.

There's no doubt issues we'd have to deal with back in England but would it be so bad with all the support from family, friends and citizens advice, to turn to? If we aren't under as much pressure then that would obviously have a beneficial affect on the kids.

I suppose my post was to point out that it isn't just schooling and freedom to be children that need to be taken into account about where is best to bring them up. No matter how much they can remain children for longer, they won't, when their parents are under enormous pressure. I had to sell my car which means the kids are often stuck at home and the long summer holidays were awful and they felt very trapped. We don't have a campo so no garden or pool - too hot for bike rides and walks and not really anywhere withing distance anyway.

Like you said though - I see friends with kids my daughter's age, that live in England, and am really glad she didn't grow up around them! Same with my eldest son's friends now - I see them hanging around on street corners, smoking, etc, etc, and would so much prefer to stay here than him have peer pressure to join all of that.

It's a tough decision and pros and cons both ways. Our life has been here for 6 years and our youngest has actually spent more than half his life here and Spain is home. We'll just see what the next 6 months bring but it's us parents that are now on the edge of breaking point and that's not nice for the kids to see.


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## Maya01

Caz.I said:


> Really sorry to hear about your situation - cant you appeal the costs through the court and demand a detailed explanation of the charges. It sounds very suspicious, particularly doubling the fees the following day. Arent they legally obliged to provide them? Someone has got to stand up to the banks habit of making money out of people's misery.
> 
> Good luck,
> Caz.I


Only if we pay a lawyer an arm and a leg and we just don't have the money to do that now - we've had 4 different lawyers in 2 years and all say the same thing that basically we'd win against the insurance company but need €2000 for an architect's report and €5000 to cover legal fees and court costs. It will take about 2 years to go to court and then the insurance company will appeal so it will cost us more legal fees and court costs and then finally, somewhere down the line we'll get the money from them. Problem is the house will be gone by then.

As for the bank's fees now - our lawyer has repeatedly asked for a breakdown but never gets them. We've asked, in writing and in person and are just told there's no need to put anything in writing! What can you do when even a lawyer can't get a response from the bank? It's been very, very, frustrating and we've just resigned ourselves to let them take the house - for our own sanity and to keep what little money we have left. No idea how bad the fallout will be because they can pursue my husband forever. He's autonomo at the moment but will have his Ltd company back up and running from January - basically he can never have anything in his own name ever again.

The pressure on the whole family has been immense and the kids can't understand why any of this is happening - they lost most of their own belongings as well as our family home. They don't get to play out with the friends that lived nearby. It's not just the house that was lost and it seems that even with insurance there's nothing we can do and nowhere we can turn. The bank won't even repay the money they took from the bank account, to pay for another year of the same insurance policy!! Pure greed from where I'm standing.

I've written to everyone I can think of for help and those that replied just tell us our rights to get a lawyer and completely ignore that we can't afford to pay a lawyer anymore money. The pot has run dry and not one of the lawyers got us any further forwards although they all agree we have a good case.

Edit to add that we have also asked about having the fees and costs added to the mortgage and then extending it to 30 years so we can pay but the bank said no. Seems they want the house whatever although I can't see why - it's an old townhouse with no roof and there are plenty more of them for sale for around a 3rd of what we owe. I just can't see what's in it for the bank to take the house rather than let us keep it and pay for it?! Seems they don't think like me.


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## jojo

Maya01 said:


> LOL - Did sound rather gloomy didn't it! Yesterday was a very bad day when it all felt as though it was closing in but doesn't seem quite so bad today.
> 
> We wouldn't be going back just because of the children and I certainly wouldn't put that burden on them. We have loads to consider but feel a little under pressure due to timing. Eldest will be at Uni in the UK (not near where we'll be living), youngest is still only 11 but our other son will be 14 so if we're in the UK he'd be starting GCSEs along with everyone else. If we wait another year then he'll have missed the 1st 12 months of GCSE and have to catch up. Just seems logical that if we make the move then we do it next summer.
> 
> Having said that, we wouldn't be considering it if we hadn't had all the problems with our house. It's just been a very difficult couple of years and really pushed things to a head. Will it be over once the house has gone or will we have more to come? It's been very tough on our kids for the past 2 years - there's no hiding the pressure we've been under.
> 
> There's no doubt issues we'd have to deal with back in England but would it be so bad with all the support from family, friends and citizens advice, to turn to? If we aren't under as much pressure then that would obviously have a beneficial affect on the kids.
> 
> I suppose my post was to point out that it isn't just schooling and freedom to be children that need to be taken into account about where is best to bring them up. No matter how much they can remain children for longer, they won't, when their parents are under enormous pressure. I had to sell my car which means the kids are often stuck at home and the long summer holidays were awful and they felt very trapped. We don't have a campo so no garden or pool - too hot for bike rides and walks and not really anywhere withing distance anyway.
> 
> Like you said though - I see friends with kids my daughter's age, that live in England, and am really glad she didn't grow up around them! Same with my eldest son's friends now - I see them hanging around on street corners, smoking, etc, etc, and would so much prefer to stay here than him have peer pressure to join all of that.
> 
> It's a tough decision and pros and cons both ways. Our life has been here for 6 years and our youngest has actually spent more than half his life here and Spain is home. We'll just see what the next 6 months bring but it's us parents that are now on the edge of breaking point and that's not nice for the kids to see.


I so feel for you and I totally understand everything you're saying - especially about your son starting his GCSEs - we were in a similar situation a while ago (but nowhere near as bad). We managed to stay, but everything hinged on my son starting his GCSEs, he's a year ahead of your son and in an international school here! Just one "bad" point is that your son may have learnt things differently in the Spanish school - especially maths. But I'm sure he'll cope and get around it ok!!

I guess the only way to do this is to look at it as a 6 year adventure that has come to an end and now you're all going ot have a new adventure with old friends and family around you in the UK. and dont forget, your kids are now bilingual, and thats something they wouldnt have been if they'd have lived in the UK. One day when they all look back on their childhood, they'll have some great exciting memories


Jo xx


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## Cazzy

CostaCookie said:


> Hi,
> 
> Would be interested to hear your views on this one if you've experienced raising a family in both the UK & Spain.
> 
> We moved here before we had our children, they're now 1 & a half & 2 & a half. We're moving back to UK in January, because we feel it's the right decision for us as a family. So many people have said to us that it's a much better quality of life for children in Sapin compared to the UK. Is this true in your experience?
> 
> Thanks.
> CC


My daughter has just moved back to the UK with her year old son. She feels that in the UK there is a lot more for children to do, and financially she is better able to do that in the UK.


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## rioblanca

My son and daughter came here with us aged 14 and 17. The youngest went to a Spanish school and could speak very little Spanish. But she knuckled down and studied hard. She is now well on her way to starting University in Granada next year. Her friends back in Norwich have either had babies, expecting babies or got into drugs. The eldest is now also fluent in Spanish and working as a mechanic. 

It is the same wherever anyone might live. You make of it what you can. If the kids work hard and are supported and encouraged by the parents they will develop their own skills and hopefully turn into respectful and appreciative children. 

I know it all sounds a bit slushy, but it really is what we make of life is dependant on our own outlooks. Circumstances can intervene as with Maya and dictate what must be done. But they children will return to the UK better for the experience of living in Spain and learning a second language.

As for children having more to do in the UK. My kids have found themselves wanting for nothing they could get in the UK. Nightclubs, cinemas, friends. In fact they probably have done far more here than they would have in the UK. And that is without the drink and drugs.


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## jojo

rioblanca said:


> As for children having more to do in the UK. My kids have found themselves wanting for nothing they could get in the UK. Nightclubs, cinemas, friends. In fact they probably have done far more here than they would have in the UK. And that is without the drink and drugs.



I totally agree with that. Swimming in the summer, out walking, riding around on the damn quad bike lol going to the beach, waterparks, not having to stay indoors cos its always raining.

Jo xxx


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## CostaCookie

Cazzy said:


> My daughter has just moved back to the UK with her year old son. She feels that in the UK there is a lot more for children to do, and financially she is better able to do that in the UK.


Thanks Cazzy.
I feel that it will be best for our kids & also best for mum & dad in every respect. Can't wait for the date to come now & we can return home - I've missed it!
x


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## Stravinsky

rioblanca said:


> My son and daughter came here with us aged 14 and 17. The youngest went to a Spanish school and could speak very little Spanish. But she knuckled down and studied hard. She is now well on her way to starting University in Granada next year. Her friends back in Norwich have either had babies, expecting babies or got into drugs. The eldest is now also fluent in Spanish and working as a mechanic.
> 
> It is the same wherever anyone might live. You make of it what you can. If the kids work hard and are supported and encouraged by the parents they will develop their own skills and hopefully turn into respectful and appreciative children.
> 
> I know it all sounds a bit slushy, but it really is what we make of life is dependant on our own outlooks. Circumstances can intervene as with Maya and dictate what must be done. But they children will return to the UK better for the experience of living in Spain and learning a second language.
> 
> As for children having more to do in the UK. My kids have found themselves wanting for nothing they could get in the UK. Nightclubs, cinemas, friends. In fact they probably have done far more here than they would have in the UK. And that is without the drink and drugs.


But I'm guessing you have gainful employment
If you are struggling for work then its a whole different ball game altogether, and however much your kids are benefitting from life in Spain, it aint going to work cos being destitute here .. well ... theres no reall fallback


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## CostaCookie

I think it's a really difficult decision to make as a parent as to what will be best for your child/children's long term future. I now feel 100% confident that for us it is without doubt the best thing to do. We'll be returning to the south coast, my partner has a full time job to go to & I have a few hours work a day lined up. Financially, we will be much better off, but more importantly, I feel we'll be a happier family unit. I've gone from being outgoing & confident to an almost hermit existence. The friends I've made have all moved back to their respective homelands & I've found it so transient where we live. My partner feels the same. 
Everyone is different & has different views & when I made my original post I was really worrying "Am I making the right decision as a parent"? For my family it is right. Funnily enough, I was talking to my Spanish neighbours at the weekend & they were saying how they thought moving was a good decision as children here on the CDS only aspire to being drug runners! A sweeping statement of course....!
Good luck to everyone pondering the rights & wrongs of life here or there. I wish you well.
xx


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## NorthernLass

CostaCookie said:


> I think it's a really difficult decision to make as a parent as to what will be best for your child/children's long term future. I now feel 100% confident that for us it is without doubt the best thing to do. We'll be returning to the south coast, my partner has a full time job to go to & I have a few hours work a day lined up. Financially, we will be much better off, but more importantly, I feel we'll be a happier family unit. I've gone from being outgoing & confident to an almost hermit existence. The friends I've made have all moved back to their respective homelands & I've found it so transient where we live. My partner feels the same.
> Everyone is different & has different views & when I made my original post I was really worrying "Am I making the right decision as a parent"? For my family it is right. Funnily enough, I was talking to my Spanish neighbours at the weekend & they were saying how they thought moving was a good decision as children here on the CDS only aspire to being drug runners! A sweeping statement of course....!
> Good luck to everyone pondering the rights & wrongs of life here or there. I wish you well.
> xx


Just to wish you all the best for your move back home.

Glad you are now 100% and I think you are making the best decision for you and your children. 

At least you have a pad here in Spain and can come for holidays etc and maybe return to retire - something to look forward to in 30 years or so...


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## CostaCookie

NorthernLass said:


> Just to wish you all the best for your move back home.
> 
> Glad you are now 100% and I think you are making the best decision for you and your children.
> 
> At least you have a pad here in Spain and can come for holidays etc and maybe return to retire - something to look forward to in 30 years or so...


Thank you!
It's a huge weight off your shoulders when you see it all clearly & know what you're doing is right. It's never easy anywhere, but at least for us it will be home.
Good luck to you too!
x


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## lynn

CostaCookie said:


> Funnily enough, I was talking to my Spanish neighbours at the weekend & they were saying how they thought moving was a good decision as children here on the CDS only aspire to being drug runners! A sweeping statement of course....!
> 
> xx


I can assure you there are just as many kids in England aspiring to be drug runners as there are here! Aspirations are something that parents can help their children with and with a loving family environment kids will grow up well wherever you choose to be. If you have financial stability going back to the UK then I am sure its the right thing to do. 
In the meantime, I will check whether the school has an option to take a IGCSE in illegal drug dealing and suggest it might be a good career option for my kids now I'm in the CDS


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## NorthernLass

Maya01 said:


> Just thought I'd add my reply as we're considering moving back to England after our daughter finishes Bachillerato, next June. She's planning to go back to Uni in England but we have 2 younger boys to also consider - by next summer they'll be aged 11 and 14.
> 
> We've been here 6 years and all 3 children are at Spanish schools. Our daughter totally immersed herself in the new culture, made friends and thrived. We're encouraging her to go to Uni back in England so she can make the comparison between Spain and England and actually experience living in the British culture. She wants to do a mathematical engineering degree and so far she has the grades required to get into a UK Uni so I definitely can't complain about the Spanish education system.
> 
> Our reasons for considering a move back now are for several reasons but the children always remain top priority in the decision making which makes it a more difficult decision!
> 
> A) For the first year or so my husband kept his business set up in England and paid tax and NI there but once we knew we were staying he registered in Spain and has been paying tax and social security here. However, we recently found out that if he doesn't have any work he's not entitled to any unemployment because he's autonomo. His 5 year's social security payments of around €250 per month only cover health care and his pension. Work is getting harder to come by so I'm really concerned what will happen if he doesn't get enough work to make ends meet.
> 
> As for employment prospects, for my children, on the CdS - there's really only tourism and the building trade.
> 
> Friends of ours have been here almost 30 years and they're now going back to England. Their children were babies when they came here and went through Spanish schools but each have gradually moved to England - temporarily at first but each ended up staying there.
> 
> B) My husband bought a house here 5 years ago but its being repossessed by the bank and the court have told us it will be done around January/February. He will be liable for the money forever with interest compounding at 29% per year - they can even take anything he might leave in his will but as he doesn't have any other assets he's unlikely to have anything to leave in his will. We ran in to problems when the roof fell in and the insurance wouldn't pay for the buildings or contents insurance. We were in England at the time so were just grateful to be alive and that none of us were hurt but we didn't realise the insurance wouldn't pay! We couldn't live in the house and lost virtually all our belongings so its been tough financially for the past couple of years and now with the recession.......
> 
> We took legal advice from 4 different lawyers and all said we can pursue the insurance company through the courts but it will end up costing the same as a new roof so we decided to save for the roof rather than pay a lawyer and wait 2 years to go to court and maybe lose. The bank saw fit to renew the insurance policy and we saw red! We stopped paying the mortgage trying to get them to cancel the insurance and give us our money back but it didn't work - seems they can have it all ways. This summer we'd finally saved enough for the roof so my husband went to pay the mortgage arrears. He was told the late charges and interest amount and went back to pay that the next day only to find they'd doubled it.  He asked them to confirm in writing that if he paid that amount there'd be no more charges - they refused but told us the fees had now gone up to a mind boggling €20,000?!?! That's not mortgage arrears, that's fees, charges, interest that started at around €1300 and a couple of weeks later reached €20k. We can't pay that - we don't have that kind of money so we have to let the house go. By the way, that amount has now gone up to €42,000 on the court documents we've received.
> 
> We've tried so hard to integrate, be legal here, pay taxes, pay social security, give work to local Spaniards, etc, etc, and its basically got us nowhere and we're about to end up with a huge handful of nothing!
> 
> Do I really want my children growing up here? I just can't for the life of me see what we could have done differently to prevent this and the legal system just seems so corrupt. I've heard from so many people that have found out their property isn't legal so they have fines or the threat of their homes being bulldozed. Others that have purchased with bank guarantees but the property has never been finished and they're stuck in legal no man's land. Lawyers who lose vital bits of paper, etc, etc. I hate to sound so negative because we really wanted this to be 'home' and it has been for 6 years but what does all this corruption teach my kids?
> 
> We live inland from the CdS and I am totally bored. Everyone I met here has left or is leaving. It's difficult to make friends when people come and go so often and there aren't even many coming now. It's not good for my children to see me at home all day and not really doing anything with my life. I don't speak fluent Spanish although I can understand most of what is being said to me. It's difficult to learn to speak it when the neighbours all speak English and decide its quicker to converse in that language.
> 
> My sons do swimming and karate and have friends but they don't really go out playing after school. Their friends all do the extra classes (classes particulares?) because their parents put so much pressure on them to do well at school. Some are grounded for a whole term if they fail just 1 subject! My daughter has a great social life so maybe its a boy thing. My 14 year old son's friends do the extra classes and also have to work on their campo properties so they really don't have much time for playing out.
> 
> I don't know what to do for the best for them really. The house situation is definitely clouding my judgement at the moment so it's probably a good thing that we haven't got to decide till next June! In the meantime my husband will either have to work illegally to stop the bank taking what he earns or set up his business as a Ltd company back in the UK and go back to paying taxes and national insurance there. Not really ideal either way and certainly not an example we want to set for our children - how to skirt around the system! I'm sad that we have to do that but the alternative will be to live on the streets, cold and hungry and that's not an example I want to show them either! If we hadn't had insurance I'd hold my hands up to say we deserve our situation but we had insurance, in good faith, and did everything we possibly could. I don't want to have to become a corrupt person that skirts around any system - I'm good, kind and honest and have always taught me children to be that way.
> 
> Sorry to be so long winded and sound all doom and gloom but I'm scared of my own shadow at the moment and haven't got a clue which way to jump!  It's not just about fresh air, freedom, sunshine and the school systems - there's far more to take into account with bringing kids up here or back in the UK. Pros and cons both sides of the coin and no doubt different for everyone. Our case is pretty extreme but its having a negative effect on my kids and makes me wonder why we're struggling to stay here.


OH my God...what a terrible situation.

I hope that you are able to make the move back to the UK and settle well there. 

It really is a dream gone sour, isn;t it? 

All the best.


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## NorthernLass

lynn said:


> I can assure you there are just as many kids in England aspiring to be drug runners as there are here! *Aspirations are something that parents can help their children with and with a loving family environment kids will grow up well wherever you choose to be.* If you have financial stability going back to the UK then I am sure its the right thing to do.
> In the meantime, I will check whether the school has an option to take a IGCSE in illegal drug dealing and suggest it might be a good career option for my kids now I'm in the CDS



I agree. 

As parents we have to encourage our children to have goals and choose good options.

So many parents - Spanish and British - do not care enough what their children do. Drugs, drink, sex - all teenagers have access to it but hopefully our children will choose the better path...


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## CostaCookie

lynn said:


> I can assure you there are just as many kids in England aspiring to be drug runners as there are here! Aspirations are something that parents can help their children with and with a loving family environment kids will grow up well wherever you choose to be. If you have financial stability going back to the UK then I am sure its the right thing to do.
> In the meantime, I will check whether the school has an option to take a IGCSE in illegal drug dealing and suggest it might be a good career option for my kids now I'm in the CDS


Oh I completely agree, it was all said rather tongue in cheek! 
Different countries, same differences in that respect....the same the world over.


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