# Software Developer (Web Developer) Salary in Toronto?



## ExBat (Nov 24, 2015)

Anyone in this field? I've seen a few topics on this subject (for this role), but nothing conclusive.

I'd like to know if a salary of approximately $140k is achievable for a Web Developer (~10 years dev, 5 years Lead Web Dev/FE Architect) in Toronto?


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## EVHB (Feb 11, 2008)

At first glance, I would say no. 
Where did you get that number?


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## ExBat (Nov 24, 2015)

EVHB said:


> At first glance, I would say no.
> Where did you get that number?


It's slightly less than my current salary in London, that's where the number comes from.  If I include my bonus, it's actually $156k, against today's exchange rate. I want to know if I can continue earning that or more.


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## EVHB (Feb 11, 2008)

Using an exchange rate is never a good idea. At one point during our immigration process, I would have gotten 30% higher wage than at another point,,, That's not how it works.


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## Auld Yin (Mar 10, 2009)

I would say your salary expectation is optimistic to say the least. London salaries are high to satisfy the high cost of housing, commuting times and costa, to say nothing of the fact many people would not countenance moving there
Toronto's COL is also high but not, I believe, anything close to London.


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## colchar (Oct 25, 2011)

ExBat said:


> Anyone in this field? I've seen a few topics on this subject (for this role), but nothing conclusive.
> 
> I'd like to know if a salary of approximately $140k is achievable for a Web Developer (~10 years dev, 5 years Lead Web Dev/FE Architect) in Toronto?




$140k for a web developer? No chance.


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## ExBat (Nov 24, 2015)

According to indeed.ca, the salaries for software architect go up to $190k: https://ca.indeed.com/salaries/Software-Architect-Salaries

I've compared the cost of living in London vs Toronto and see that Toronto is 26% cheaper in living cost, this would bring my salary down to: $116,180 to live at the same standard.

Comparison of cost: https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-livi...om&city1=London&country2=Canada&city2=Toronto


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## Auld Yin (Mar 10, 2009)

ExBat said:


> According to indeed.ca, the salaries for software architect go up to $190k: https://ca.indeed.com/salaries/Software-Architect-Salaries
> 
> I've compared the cost of living in London vs Toronto and see that Toronto is 26% cheaper in living cost, this would bring my salary down to: $116,180 to live at the same standard.
> 
> Comparison of cost: https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-livi...om&city1=London&country2=Canada&city2=Toronto


So haven't you answered your own question?


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## colchar (Oct 25, 2011)

ExBat said:


> According to indeed.ca, the salaries for software architect go up to $190k: https://ca.indeed.com/salaries/Software-Architect-Salaries


Just because they go up to $190k doesn't mean that you will earn $190k. That is at the very top end of the salary range, the average salary is nowhere near that.




> I've compared the cost of living in London vs Toronto and see that Toronto is 26% cheaper in living cost, this would bring my salary down to: $116,180 to live at the same standard.
> 
> Comparison of cost: https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-livi...om&city1=London&country2=Canada&city2=Toronto



That numbeo website is nowhere near accurate. I live in the GTA and the prices listed for various products are simply not accurate.

Imported beer is not cheaper than domestic beer. A 2L bottle of pop can be had for $0.99 any day of the week but they claim it costs $1.78 for a 0.33L bottle. They also claim that a 0.33L bottle of water costs $1.53 when the reality is that you can buy a case of 24 bottles (normally 500ml each) for $1.99, and often a little less than that. They list milk as $2.35 per liter but we buy it in bags that total 4L and that only costs $4.25 (and that is high compared to what it was a few months ago...and I expect it to come back down like it _always_ does). I have never paid $12.89 for 1KG of cheese in my life, nor would I ever. It is available for less than half cost that all the time.


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## EVHB (Feb 11, 2008)

Topicstarter is from the Netherlands. Maybe he's like me, spoiled with excellent quality and very tasteful French cheese (and some Dutch and Belgian one ;-) ), and will be happy to pay $13/kg (and more) to get some special cheeses. But my day-to-day havarti (far far away from a good young Gouda we were used to in Belgium and the Netherlands) are pretty cheap. The Gouda you can buy here doesn't even resemble the Dutch Gouda. Not even the one you buy at a Dutch Store. :-(
(tip for topic starter: Quebec has some good cheeses, as does B.C. Some you can buy in a supermarket but most you have to buy in a speciality store. And some are only $8/kg!!!  )


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## ExBat (Nov 24, 2015)

colchar said:


> Just because they go up to $190k doesn't mean that you will earn $190k. That is at the very top end of the salary range, the average salary is nowhere near that.


Think I don't deserve it? 



> That numbeo website is nowhere near accurate. I live in the GTA and the prices listed for various products are simply not accurate.
> 
> Imported beer is not cheaper than domestic beer. A 2L bottle of pop can be had for $0.99 any day of the week but they claim it costs $1.78 for a 0.33L bottle. They also claim that a 0.33L bottle of water costs $1.53 when the reality is that you can buy a case of 24 bottles (normally 500ml each) for $1.99, and often a little less than that. They list milk as $2.35 per liter but we buy it in bags that total 4L and that only costs $4.25 (and that is high compared to what it was a few months ago...and I expect it to come back down like it _always_ does). I have never paid $12.89 for 1KG of cheese in my life, nor would I ever. It is available for less than half cost that all the time.


My experience of having lived in three countries, has shown me that as an expat, especially one that always lives in 'the city', my expenses have always been well beyond what a local spends.

To give you an idea, when I lived in the Netherlands as a local, I was lucky enough to pay:
Rent: €600
Groceries: €350
Travel: €127
Total: €1077

Now in the UK
Rent: £1650
Groceries: £500
Travel: £420
Total: £2570

From the returning Dutch expats I've spoken to, their number one reason for returning has been: not being able to pay for an equivalent or better life, using their new salary.

When I compare to prices in Toronto (rent/groceries/etc), they're not too far off from London. E.g. even living at reasonable distance from Toronto city, will cost aprox $2000 (apartment, close to public transport: realtor.ca).

However, even if I were to ignore the prices I see online and simply use the rent as an indicator. Using my standard of, 'rent should never exceed ~28% of your income. It adds up to:
Gross: $120,000
Net: $85,435
Monthly net: $7,119
Rent percent of Monthly net: 28%


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## ExBat (Nov 24, 2015)

EVHB said:


> Topicstarter is from the Netherlands. Maybe he's like me, spoiled with excellent quality and very tasteful French cheese (and some Dutch and Belgian one ;-) ), and will be happy to pay $13/kg (and more) to get some special cheeses. But my day-to-day havarti (far far away from a good young Gouda we were used to in Belgium and the Netherlands) are pretty cheap. The Gouda you can buy here doesn't even resemble the Dutch Gouda. Not even the one you buy at a Dutch Store. :-(
> (tip for topic starter: Quebec has some good cheeses, as does B.C. Some you can buy in a supermarket but most you have to buy in a speciality store. And some are only $8/kg!!!  )


Most of our groceries consists of no junk/fatty/etc, mostly vegetarian/vegan/organic (food that's priced x 2 in most cases ;'( ).


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## colchar (Oct 25, 2011)

ExBat said:


> When I compare to prices in Toronto (rent/groceries/etc), they're not too far off from London. E.g. even living at reasonable distance from Toronto city, will cost aprox $2000 (apartment, close to public transport: realtor.ca).



Define 'reasonable distance'. I guarantee you that you can find an apartment for half that amount in the cities/suburbs around Toronto.

I have lived in London (Bethnal Green) and have lived most of my life just to the northwest of Toronto (can see the CN Tower from my driveway and can be in the city in 15 mins) and trust me, Toronto is nowhere near as expensive as London.


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## ExBat (Nov 24, 2015)

colchar said:


> Define 'reasonable distance'. I guarantee you that you can find an apartment for half that amount in the cities/suburbs around Toronto.
> 
> I have lived in London (Bethnal Green) and have lived most of my life just to the northwest of Toronto (can see the CN Tower from my driveway and can be in the city in 15 mins) and trust me, Toronto is nowhere near as expensive as London.


Random location (Willowdale) at 35 minutes (25km) distance from M5J 2J5
2 bedroom, cheapest, 1 x $1800, average ~$2100

I haven't even done research on what the good/bad parts of Toronto are.


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## colchar (Oct 25, 2011)

ExBat said:


> Random location (Willowdale) at 35 minutes (25km) distance from M5J 2J5
> 2 bedroom, cheapest, 1 x $1800, average ~$2100
> 
> I haven't even done research on what the good/bad parts of Toronto are.



Nor on what the various parts of Toronto are by the looks of it. Willowdale is part of Toronto, I am talking about places that are not part of Toronto.


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## colchar (Oct 25, 2011)

I just checked with my brother who lives in a nice new (less than a year old) two bedroom condo right downtown (I mean right smack in the downtown core) and he pays $1800 per month. He says they got a bit of a deal and that his unit normally goes for $2000-2200 per month. 

If his unit normally goes for $2000-$2200 and is right smack downtown then units outside of Toronto but within a reasonable commute will go for much less.


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## ExBat (Nov 24, 2015)

colchar said:


> I just checked with my brother who lives in a nice new (less than a year old) two bedroom condo right downtown (I mean right smack in the downtown core) and he pays $1800 per month. He says they got a bit of a deal and that his unit normally goes for $2000-2200 per month.
> 
> If his unit normally goes for $2000-$2200 and is right smack downtown then units outside of Toronto but within a reasonable commute will go for much less.


Yes, that's right. But the prices don't reduce anywhere close to the centre. E.g. you'd have to be willing to travel a good 45mins (by public transport+walking) before it gets 'cheaper'. Realistically, it'll just be $2000 for somewhere convenient (close to stores/public transport/good quality/etc).

Either way, this makes the 'centre' of Toronto more affordable than London (actually, they'd probably give you a box to live in for that price in London centre ).


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## EVHB (Feb 11, 2008)

$2,300 / $2,500 rent in Oakville (about 45 minutes on the go train to downtown) will give you a smaller detached house, about 15-20 years old with 3 bedrooms and 1 garage.


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