# Brexit and treaty of Windsor



## siobhanwf

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Windsor_(1386)
Brexit and article 50 started yesterday. The TREAY OF WINDSOR predates the EU AND 
the relationship between Portugal and England HAS ALWAYS very strong. It goes back to 9th May 1386 with the diplomatic alliance signed between both countries: the TREATY OF WINDSOR (the oldest treaty still in force today). I believe that in the end of day nothing will change for the british citizens who live in Portugal.


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## HKG3

For those British expats worried about how Brexit will affect their pensions and health care entitlement in Portugal, please see link below - 

http://treaties.fco.gov.uk/docs/pdf/1979/TS0093.pdf

The UK and Portugal agreed on a Social Security and Health convention in 1979 (before Portugal entered the Common Market). In this convention, the UK agreed that people entitle to an UK old age pension living in Portugal will be entitle to the same increase as those living in the UK (Article 4(2)) and article 2 of the health protocol stated that British Citizens living in Portugal are entitle to the same health care services as the locals as long as they can produce their British Passports.

With Brexit, I can see the UK government will try to either update or conclude new bilateral agreements like the one above.


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## smudges

siobhanwf said:


> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Windsor_(1386)
> Brexit and article 50 started yesterday. The TREAY OF WINDSOR predates the EU AND
> the relationship between Portugal and England HAS ALWAYS very strong. It goes back to 9th May 1386 with the diplomatic alliance signed between both countries: the TREATY OF WINDSOR (the oldest treaty still in force today). I believe that in the end of day nothing will change for the british citizens who live in Portugal.


Yes, I believe PT is our oldest ally...we've never had a war with them. I agree with the writer's thoughts but I suppose it depends on what Brussels will allow the Portuguese to do independently. Hopefully the EU will disintegrate before any unhelpful diktats are issued.


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## advolex

Yes, I am still convinced that the current expats, who would have collected their partners and possessions by now, will face no worries because of Brexit. Maybe the bright future for all of us is not altogether dependent on the Windsor treaty, as every bilateral agreement of any value or importance has been set aside by the flood of multilateral agreements between the 28. But the European Arrest Warrant and Europol and similar institutions won't affect us expats much, of that I'm convinced. Many of us remember what life was like before the EU and it wasn't that bad. It's more the young who will be affected, with higher education and so forth. And jobs. But not so much for us.
Bottom line: Have no fear. There is good hope, and it's not only coming from the 14th century. Cheers!


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## Easyriders

HKG3 said:


> For those British expats worried about how Brexit will affect their pensions and health care entitlement in Portugal, please see link below -
> 
> http://treaties.fco.gov.uk/docs/pdf/1979/TS0093.pdf
> 
> The UK and Portugal agreed on a Social Security and Health convention in 1979 (before Portugal entered the Common Market). In this convention, the UK agreed that people entitle to an UK old age pension living in Portugal will be entitle to the same increase as those living in the UK (Article 4(2)) and article 2 of the health protocol stated that British Citizens living in Portugal are entitle to the same health care services as the locals as long as they can produce their British Passports.
> 
> With Brexit, I can see the UK government will try to either update or conclude new bilateral agreements like the one above.


Does anyone know if this treaty/convention (the 1979 one) is still in force, or has it been superseded eg when Portugal joined the EU? If it has not, then presumably it will still stand even after Brexit. I've tried searching for this information, but while I can find references to all sorts of treaties, there doesn't seem to be an easy way to find out which are still in force.

Perhaps I should stop looking though? If the Convention shown in the link above is still in force, and the UK government realises it is, they may decide to pull out of it!

Anybody know? Thanks in advance!


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## smudges

Might it be worth contacting your local MEP's office?


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## Easyriders

Thanks, Smudges, good idea!


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## Maggy Crawford

I am emailing my MP today to ask what the situation is.


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## smudges

Easyriders said:


> Thanks, Smudges, good idea!


It came to me in a flash of inspiration! I'd love to know how you get on, too.


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## Maggy Crawford

Rest assured I'll report back here when I get a reply. I have googled 1979 reciprocal agreement treaty Portugal UK and got it up on screen. I haven't looked at it in detail but what does concern me is that, although it says UK, it refers a lot to the States of Jersey. I know that the hotel trade in Jersey is staffed during the summer by mainly Portuguese from Madeira. I you want to have a look and see what you think I'd be interested. My specific question to my MP is asking whether it has been rescinded, whether the 15 year limit on voting rights has been revoked and also referring to he Treaty of Windsor.


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## smudges

I wonder if an international treaty can be revoked by one signatory only and does that mean that the other party's obligations/rights are automatically cancelled? I assume so, but I suppose that it is possible that the UK hasn't revoked something that has been superceded by Brussels' overlordship of PT for their part. Hmmm.......


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## Easyriders

Hope so, Smudges. But it may be the case that countries joining the EU automatically revoke bilatoral agreements between each other, with pan-EU treaties taking over. I've spent a lot of time trying to find out, but no luck so far.


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## inconnu

Maggy Crawford said:


> Rest assured I'll report back here when I get a reply.


Great stuff. I just remembered that I get a UK Old Age Pension and that I have a British passport too. Like my pension is only 10 pence per week, but it still should qualify.

I'm very interested in the availability of health care in Portugal though.


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## Tryon

Can we cut back on the Treaty of Windsor posts ? It is irrelevant to a Portuguese today or to those who have lived in Portugal now agitating for Brexit so why should any British here still be chewing it over. Far more up to date to a Portuguese is discussing Pink Maps, 1890 English Ultimatum's and the line in the Portuguese National Anthem - "Attack the British". Then looking in your area in Portugal for any British Passport holders who are 'Effectively Occupying'. & If there are no Brits as owners managing their licenced businesses anywhere near you .... ask yourself why ?


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## Easyriders

Tryon said:


> Can we cut back on the Treaty of Windsor posts ? It is irrelevant to a Portuguese today or to those who have lived in Portugal now agitating for Brexit so why should any British here still be chewing it over. Far more up to date to a Portuguese is discussing Pink Maps, 1890 English Ultimatum's and the line in the Portuguese National Anthem - "Attack the British". Then looking in your area in Portugal for any British Passport holders who are 'Effectively Occupying'. & If there are no Brits as owners managing their licenced businesses anywhere near you .... ask yourself why ?


I have read your post three times now, Tryon, and it still makes no sense to me. What are you trying to say? Or is it just an incoherent rant?

It is of interest to me, my husband, and many others I am sure, what will happen to treaties between the UK and Portugal that were signed before Portugal became a member of the EU if the UK continues on the suicidal path of leaving the EU. It has long been our dream to live in Portugal, but now we do not know what the future will be.


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## Tryon

Too many of us Brits, me included x years ago, came here wrongly assuming that if it matters to us in Portugal it is written in English. Wrong! This is just one of many things that so wound up João Magueijo in his recent Portuguese best seller about 25 years of his life in the UK - Bifes Mal Passados. Sadly never to be read in English! 

Therefore we must all show more respect to the Portuguese so, Easyriders, try searching in Portuguese!
Your local (Portuguese) library will have ample basic school history books which show that the Treaty of Windsor gets a line at most. No more (hint: research the 1588 Armada!) so is totally irrelevant to Brexit today. What gets gets many chapters of discussion is the much more recent 1800 century onwards of britânico Hegemony and all the associated toing and froing like the Conferência de Berlim 1884 - 188, Mapa cor-de-rosa, Ultimato britânico de 1890 and particularly relevant to many of us British today Ocupação efetiva. Also homework including map drawing, quizzes and essay writing should you want to take the subject further. 

Whilst in the library take out Política externa e política interna no Portugal de 1890: o Ultimatum Inglês or read (?) through this pdf http://analisesocial.ics.ul.pt/documentos/1223027734K4zTZ2wh1Lu94TC4.pdf 
Good luck !


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## HKG3

As far as I can understand, bilateral social security agreements are still in place in EU countries with third countries (the UK could soon be a 'third country' after Brexit). The list each EU country has appears to be different. Ireland has a bilateral social security agreements with the following countries - 

Australia, Canada, Japan, Korea, New Zealand, Québec, Switzerland, United Kingdom covering those parts of the United Kingdom that are outside of the European Union and United States of America.

Bilateral Social Security Agreements with Other Countries

While the UK has a bilateral social security agreements with the following countries - 

Barbados, Bermuda, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Canada, Jersey, Guernsey, Isle of Man, Israel, Jamaica, Kosovo, Macedonia, Mauritius, Montenegro, New Zealand, Philippines, Serbia, Turkey and USA. 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...e-pay-an-annual-increase-in-the-state-pension

So it appears that EU member states still have the freedom to conclude bilateral social security agreements with third countries.


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## Naaling

Tryon said:


> Too many of us Brits, me included x years ago, came here wrongly assuming that if it matters to us in Portugal it is written in English. Wrong! This is just one of many things that so wound up João Magueijo in his recent Portuguese best seller about 25 years of his life in the UK - Bifes Mal Passados. Sadly never to be read in English!
> 
> Therefore we must all show more respect to the Portuguese so, Easyriders, try searching in Portuguese!
> Your local (Portuguese) library will have ample basic school history books which show that the Treaty of Windsor gets a line at most. No more (hint: research the 1588 Armada!) so is totally irrelevant to Brexit today. What gets gets many chapters of discussion is the much more recent 1800 century onwards of britânico Hegemony and all the associated toing and froing like the Conferência de Berlim 1884 - 188, Mapa cor-de-rosa, Ultimato britânico de 1890 and particularly relevant to many of us British today Ocupação efetiva. Also homework including map drawing, quizzes and essay writing should you want to take the subject further.
> 
> Whilst in the library take out Política externa e política interna no Portugal de 1890: o Ultimatum Inglês or read (?) through this pdf http://analisesocial.ics.ul.pt/documentos/1223027734K4zTZ2wh1Lu94TC4.pdf
> Good luck !


Tryon your post raises two issues that need to be dealt with separately.

1. The Treaty of Windsor.
Of course you are correct that few Portuguese know or care about this treaty. I imagine that same would be true of the Brits. But that's not the point. Treaties are made between Governments not people. The people of Britain may not know much about this treaty, but I'm sure the Foreign Office does, and input from the Foreign Office will be critical in shaping British Foreign Affairs post Brexit.

2, General Historical Grievances
Virtually every European country has historical grievances with other European countries. Isn't the purpose of the EU to put those grievances aside so that the people of Europe can live together in harmony? I believe that on the whole the Portuguese people are committed to that ideal. Lets hope that continues after Brexit!


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## Myhnabird

HKG3 said:


> Australia, Canada, Japan, Korea, New Zealand, Québec,


It's news to me that Quebec has separated from the rest of Canada! Perhaps I should pay a bit more attention to the state of my country...


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## JohnBoy

Tryon said:


> Can we cut back on the Treaty of Windsor posts ? It is irrelevant to a Portuguese today or to those who have lived in Portugal now agitating for Brexit so why should any British here still be chewing it over. Far more up to date to a Portuguese is discussing Pink Maps, 1890 English Ultimatum's and the line in the Portuguese National Anthem - "Attack the British". Then looking in your area in Portugal for any British Passport holders who are 'Effectively Occupying'. & If there are no Brits as owners managing their licenced businesses anywhere near you .... ask yourself why ?


Like Easyrider, we are also having trouble understanding your post. My Portuguese girlfriend says that she would like you to point out exactly where in her National Anthem are the words, "Against the British," as those words certainly do not form part of the version that she sings.

If you are having a problem with that, let me help you out with this link to the words in both English and Portuguese:

https://goo.gl/fAzkaL


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## Easyriders

And actually, my original post concerned this link, kindly provided above by HKG3:
http://treaties.fco.gov.uk/docs/pdf/1979/TS0093.pdf

So not just the Treaty of Windsor. The 1979 treaty was a bilateral agreement between the UK and Portugal, and written in both English and Portuguese. It was agreed and ratified between the two sovereign states before Portugal became a member of the EU. I am simply trying to find out whether it still stands, and whether it will continue to stand when The UK floats away from Europe to never-never Brexitland!


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## HKG3

Myhnabird said:


> It's news to me that Quebec has separated from the rest of Canada! Perhaps I should pay a bit more attention to the state of my country...


The link below will provide more information on the Social Security Understanding between Ireland and Quebec which came into force in 1994 - 

Irish/Québec Social Security Agreement - SW 96


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## HKG3

Easyriders said:


> And actually, my original post concerned this link, kindly provided above by HKG3:
> http://treaties.fco.gov.uk/docs/pdf/1979/TS0093.pdf
> 
> So not just the Treaty of Windsor. The 1979 treaty was a bilateral agreement between the UK and Portugal, and written in both English and Portuguese. It was agreed and ratified between the two sovereign states before Portugal became a member of the EU. I am simply trying to find out whether it still stands, and whether it will continue to stand when The UK floats away from Europe to never-never Brexitland!


From my very limited understanding, it is both in the UK and Portugal's interest to have the bilateral agreement on social security and medical treatment. 

For the UK - keeping mostly UK pensioners in Portugal so that there will be less pressure on the NHS and social services in the UK.

For Portugal - extra investments (mostly in the housing market) and spending in the Portuguese economy from the British expat community in Portugal.


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## Myhnabird

HKG3 said:


> The link below will provide more information on the Social Security Understanding between Ireland and Quebec which came into force in 1994 -
> 
> Irish/Québec Social Security Agreement - SW 96


Wow! Quebec Income Tax is different from the rest of Canada - eg. "if you are in Quebec, see column 2" - but I had no idea they had their own pension agreements with other countries. 
Thanks for the education.


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## Tryon

A useful reminder of the value to the Portuguese of the Treaty of Windsor can be found in the current celebration of 100 years of the US base on the Açores. (Azores) When struggling desperately against the Hun for the second time in the last century the UK was just weeks away from being starved into submission. Us Brits needed to base our anti-U Boat forces further into the Atlantic. Dictator Salazar continued to deny the UK any use of the Azores until 1943 - following the UK threatening invasion to get what the US already had. The Algarve Daily News describes it in English. 
This again raises the question - why do the UK Tourist Guide Books keep misleading us of the importance of this Treaty - something almost no British knew existed and that all Portuguese are nowadays keen to forget?


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## JohnBoy

You are still around and rambling on then Tryon. While you are here, perhaps you would care to answer the question I put to you eight days ago. For your benefit, here it is again:



JohnBoy said:


> My Portuguese girlfriend says that she would like you to point out exactly where in her National Anthem are the words, "Against the British," as those words certainly do not form part of the version that she sings.
> 
> If you are having a problem with that, let me help you out with this link to the words in both English and Portuguese:
> 
> https://goo.gl/fAzkaL


My girlfriend actually had a lot more to say at the time. The words offensive and disrespectful were mentioned. She did also question if you have chosen to settle in the right country or would be happier back in the UK. 

.


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## Tryon

*A_Portuguesa - Against the Britons, march, march!*

A_Portuguesa - Against the Britons, march, march!

Full marks JohnBoy ! This shows so well why it is so bizarre to get real facts about what the Portuguese think about the British. This is JohnBoy's girlfriend - not the barman or waitress so someone who should value him. Show him respect. Most of us will have brought our other half out with us - he has shopped local. No doubt he will have asked her many times "Why do so many British have such a hard time of it in Portugal. A fellow EU country that has agreed to all the Treaties so the Portuguese equally protecting British rights along with the other Member States citizens?" 

John Boy needs to ask himself why his girl friend has been so misleading him about something all Portuguese learn in the chorus of their National Anthem ....?

*The last line of the chorus, "Contra os canhões marchar, marchar!" (Against the cannons, march, march!), is an alteration of the original, "Contra os bretões marchar, marchar" (Against the Britons, march, march!), a call to arms against the British Ultimatum.[3]
*
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Portuguesa 

Why does JohnBoys girlfriend not tell him the reason why the Anthem was written ?


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## RichardHenshall

I'm interested to note that the website referenced by the author of the quoted section on Wikipedia appears to be an American travel agency.

While the song that later evolved into the national anthem may have been originally written to include the 'offending' line, it would appear that, if it was, it was changed before becoming the national anthem.

This source (which seems reasonably authoritative ) makes no reference to the 'offending' line.


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## JohnBoy

I think that our friend 'Tryon' made a typo when creating his forum profile. Surely the user name should have been 'Trollon'.

I refuse to 'feed the troll' so, for the first time on any Internet Forum, I have made use of the 'Ignore' feature. :wave:


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## smudges

I just googled 'trolling' (see how internet-savvy I am!!) and agree with JB's assessment of this poster, which could equally be applied to at least one other person on here.....


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## Maggy Crawford

I have finally received a reply from my MP which I take the liberty of pasting below. I replied that I was glad about the 15 year limit being lifted and that I am sure the Brexit negotiations will be undertaken in good faith and with all Britons in mind.
Quote:

Dear Mrs Dampier



Thank you for contacting me about the UK's social security arrangements with Portugal and overseas voters. I apologise for the delay in replying.



The UK made a number of individual agreements on social security with European countries both before and after it joined the European Community. However, these arrangements are not as extensive as the protection provided by current EU legislation. This is why the Government has said that it will seek to protect the healthcare arrangements currently set out in EU social security regulations.



The regulations at the moment mean that expatriate Britons living in an EU member state can receive healthcare cover if they receive a UK benefit or state pension. The cost of this healthcare is covered by the UK. In the same way, EU citizens living in the UK are entitled to receive treatment from the NHS.



The negotiations have recently started and there is a goodwill on both sides to reach a withdrawal deal. I am confident that this agreement will be achieved and that it will be in the best interests of the British people.



British citizens who move abroad remain a vital part of our democracy, and it is important that they have the ability to participate. Indeed, expats retain strong links with the UK. They may have family here, or plan to return here in the future, and modern technology and cheaper air travel have both transformed their ability to keep in touch with their home country.



I am therefore pleased that the Government is committed to introduce votes for life, scrapping the rule that bars British citizens who have lived abroad for more than 15 years from voting. The Government has published details of its approach to removing this rule, and I know Ministers look forward to working with the expat community as they take the proposals forward.



Following the decision of the British people to leave the EU, we now need to strengthen ties with countries around the world, and show that the UK is an outward-facing nation. Our expat community has an important role to play in helping Britain expand international trade, especially given two-thirds of expats live outside the EU.



I hope this helps.



Yours sincerely



George



George Hollingbery MP

Member of Parliament for Meon Valley


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