# Delicate Question



## Wine_Lover (Apr 1, 2016)

Hi,

My question is extremely sensitive and I would like hope that it is responded to in a very professional manner, thank thank you in advance.

I am a transgender person, I few years ago i had my birth certificate changed to reflect my new gender. With that said I plan to apply for Italian Citizenship, my concerns are such:

Are there any restrictions that would stop me from obtaining Italian Citizenship? Secondly i am divorced, when i was married and divorced it was my previous gender/name. I would assume I would need to also provide a Court Ordered Name Change which i do have a certified copy. 

Is anyone familiar with this type of situation?

Thanks much and thank you to Rachel for giving me the courage to come forward and ask.

Wine Lover


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Wine_Lover said:


> Hi,
> 
> My question is extremely sensitive and I would like hope that it is responded to in a very professional manner, thank thank you in advance.
> 
> ...


:welcome:

I'm sure if anyone on the forum knows the answer they will respond, though none of us are professionals - but really & truly the only place you will get a definitive answer is the Italian consulate where you apply


Good luck


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

There are no extra problems beyond the usual challenges in citizenship recognition, as far as I'm aware. According to Wikipedia, Italy was the third country in the world to allow a change in legal gender (on a birth certificate). In a citizenship recognition application the officials should simply transcribe your current foreign birth record. So if you submit a birth record with your current name and gender, that's fine, that's what they'll go with. If you have other documents in different names then you'll just need a paper trail indicating that that name is a proper alias. That court ordered name change document should work nicely.

Italy does not yet have opposite sex marriage or civil unions -- legislation is pending -- but until that happens marriage is recognized if you're married to someone of the opposite sex compared to what's on your birth certificate today. For example, if you transitioned from male to female, and female is indicated on your birth record now, then Italy would recognize your marriage to a man (as defined by what's on his birth record). If your previous marriage did not conform to that opposite sex definition then probably (guessing a bit) the officials handling your citizenship recognition application will just set it aside and ignore it, and the divorce. It'll be a non-event from the Italian point of view, as it were. If that's the case it's probably good news since it'd cut down on the paperwork you have to submit. When/if the same sex marriage/civil union legislation comes into force -- maybe quite soon, actually -- that might change.

Where will you be applying for recognition?


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## Wine_Lover (Apr 1, 2016)

BBCWatcher said:


> There are no extra problems beyond the usual challenges in citizenship recognition, as far as I'm aware. According to Wikipedia, Italy was the third country in the world to allow a change in legal gender (on a birth certificate). In a citizenship recognition application the officials should simply transcribe your current foreign birth record. So if you submit a birth record with your current name and gender, that's fine, that's what they'll go with. If you have other documents in different names then you'll just need a paper trail indicating that that name is a proper alias. That court ordered name change document should work nicely.
> 
> Italy does not yet have opposite sex marriage or civil unions -- legislation is pending -- but until that happens marriage is recognized if you're married to someone of the opposite sex compared to what's on your birth certificate today. For example, if you transitioned from male to female, and female is indicated on your birth record now, then Italy would recognize your marriage to a man (as defined by what's on his birth record). If your previous marriage did not conform to that opposite sex definition then probably (guessing a bit) the officials handling your citizenship recognition application will just set it aside and ignore it, and the divorce. It'll be a non-event from the Italian point of view, as it were. If that's the case it's probably good news since it'd cut down on the paperwork you have to submit. When/if the same sex marriage/civil union legislation comes into force -- maybe quite soon, actually -- that might change.
> 
> Where will you be applying for recognition?


When I was married it was to the apposite sex, so that fits the usual definitions. My transition had nothing to do with the divorce, it was 15 years later, transitioning from male to female, and my new birth record was changed 9 years ago. I do have my marriage, divorce Birth Cert and court ordered name change. I would need to get all of them "Certified Copies"

I am not sure where I will apply as i am not retired yet (cannot wait) If I did apply in the USA, it would be with the Italian Consulate in Philadelphia. I recently read in another forum that a young man said they were out to 18 months plus for a appointment, I could start now get it started and out of the way. I am using my GM, M, me.

thanks for your feedback


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

Wine_Lover said:


> My transition had nothing to do with the divorce....


I didn't imply that it did. What I am saying is that your sex is (now) female, and that's presumably indicated on the birth certificate you will submit in the course of your citizenship recognition application. Under present Italian law -- very soon to change, it looks like, but at present -- women cannot marry women. So your marriage to a woman and divorce would, presumably, be disregarded. As in, you wouldn't even have to submit that marriage and divorce paperwork.

Eighteen months from now -- or even perhaps eighteen weeks from now -- that might change, and you'd submit the marriage and divorce. Italy would presumably treat that as a same sex marriage (or civil union) and divorce, and record it as such. Which really just means putting an "F" in the record books for your ex-spouse.

To net it out, keep it simple. The consular official just goes with what you submit as long as the paperwork lines up. If the birth certificate you submit says "Sarah Parker, female," then that's what they'll transcribe onto your Italian birth certificate, passport, etc. If Italy adopts same sex marriage then they'll go ahead and record your previous marriage to a woman and your divorce. If you need to provide evidence that the marriage and divorce records are for you, Sarah Parker, but you had an alias of Saul Parker back then, that's fine. You have such a record with the name change.

Don't lie, but just let the documents speak for you. That should be just fine. In a way you're sort of being "born" from the Italian point of view in this recognition process, and as far as I know they don't bother recording M (cross out) F in the Italian records if you apply for recognition post transition. They just mark F down, and that's that.


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## Wine_Lover (Apr 1, 2016)

BBCWatcher said:


> I didn't imply that it did. What I am saying is that your sex is (now) female, and that's presumably indicated on the birth certificate you will submit in the course of your citizenship recognition application. Under present Italian law -- very soon to change, it looks like, but at present -- women cannot marry women. So your marriage to a woman and divorce would, presumably, be disregarded. As in, you wouldn't even have to submit that marriage and divorce paperwork.
> 
> Eighteen months from now -- or even perhaps eighteen weeks from now -- that might change, and you'd submit the marriage and divorce. Italy would presumably treat that as a same sex marriage (or civil union) and divorce, and record it as such. Which really just means putting an "F" in the record books for your ex-spouse.
> 
> ...


I did a little reading about the LGBT community is faced with in Italy, they are going through all too reminiscent of what we were faced some years ago. There was heavy lobbying, a number of us did lobby in Washington along with HRC.

Thanks again


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