# Ready for viewings in September



## crookesey (May 22, 2008)

By conducting my property search online using owners selling direct web sites I have located 5 possibilities in our preferred area prior to our trip, something that I never found possible when using agents. I have corresponded by email and spoken to the sellers by phone and can actually guarantee finding three of the properties without assistance.

My experiences may differ from those of other potential buyers; forum members comments would be appreciated. All of our intended viewings have been for sale for quite a while, some have been reduced slightly (by between 1.50% and 2.50%), I have seen the odd 30% reduction but not on anything that we are interested in. Some of the 'furniture negotiable' sellers are now saying that some or all of the futniture is included in the sale.

My feeling is that most sellers are in total denial as to the severity of the decline in the Spanish property market. Thet appear to think that we will accept a very small discount along with some used furniture and part with around 15% more than would have had to prior to the euro strengthening against the pound. They further expect us to swallow a circa 15% decrease in the value of our UK property just so that they can come out of the deal more or less unscathed, are they crackers or has the sun got to them?

My expectations of us finding our ideal property are not 100%, however if one is right for us I intend to press the points made in the previous paragraph, and failing common sense prevailing we will play the waiting game. Some of you guys must be going through or have gone through what we are just about to embark upon; your experiences of the current Spanish property market would be of great help to us. Rest assured, I have done my homework on the legalities issues, it is the actual state of the current market and what prices are being paid that interests me.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

My only comment would be tread very carefully with the legalities of the properties. Having searched to buy in the past, I found it staggering how many properties, although on the surface looked quite legal, correct and above board - were in fact NOT!! Even the house I'm renting at the moment is not as legal shall we say as I would like. Make sure you have a good lawyer you can trust and who understands the wierd goings on over here - especially if you're not using an estate agent, at least some of them do vet properties first!!

As for property prices, well, they're only worth what someone is willing to buy em for - and thats providing the vendor is happy to accept the price. There is an awful lot of additional expences that makes the whole deal at least 10% more than the asking price anyway + the poor vendor is usually hit with at least 15% capital gains tax - we gave up on the idea of buying in the end, partly cos of all the hassle. We were even considering doing a direct swap on a property here with our property in the UK, which we thought would be easier........ the hell it was..... NOT!!!! LOL

Jo


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

Is there a price decline here? - Yes. BUT NOWHERE NEAR AS exaggerated as in the UK from what my Dad, Brother & mates tell me. Certainly not here where I live - and there's NO tourist activity here i.e LESS DEMAND. 

The general picture seems to be more of a stagnation than a drop - I've heard of -5% but see no real evidence of it. 

Sales cycles here can be VERY prolonged too. When we bought here - the house was new, complete, unoccupied. Had been for 6months. We had cash - still took 3 months to get to the notary stage (we were actually living in it a week before completion). 

And what Jo says - beware legal issues. I've seen folk where I work suddenly realise that their legal property is not 100%. You cant sell it, cant alter it, cant easily renovate it. In some extreme cases they've been destroyed - though residences are normally respected.

It also depends HUGELY on where and what the property is. If the seller is not in a PANIC to sell and knows that the property is saleable, why would he reduce. Would you?. 

If there's no mortgage - then there's generally NO pressure. What we see here moving, are due to sudden unemployment or other issues that make mortgages too high to pay. That and commercial properties. Plus a normal percentage of simply "moving". That % is lower than the UK from what I've seen.

The summer/weekend homes here near us are steady as a rock. Most holiday properties are "investments" too. Certainly the folk I know in Spain with "holiday" homes are NOT under pressure to sell even if its mortgaged. I know several folk waiting to buy from PANIC sellers on the coast. 

Prices will drop if the seller is EAGER to sell, as everywhere. 

Frankly the loss of value to your UK property on the UK market IS 100% your problem. I've a mate in the UK who's in your position. He's reduced AGAIN the price asked (by about 25grand iirc) to try and get a sale in the UK. 

The price here has not changed on adjoining properties to that he's looking at (down near Gib somewhere). And he's looking at the cheaper end here as he wants to have a nice "cushion". 

The exchange rate change IS 100% your problem too - currently. For years (one could say) it was Spains. Of course if the UK had taken up the Euro when it was offered - well.......... They can always sell to other €uro buyers remember. 

Whilst it sounds hard - The UK has had a (some might say artificially) high pound for a while. I took advantage of it too. The pounds alliance to the Dollar has hurt it. During this buoyant period the Euro has seemed (as an investor), well, sluggish. Now of course it looks stable. 

I'll bet that if a Spanish seller came to you with the same arguments - Local market weak and exchange rate against them - you'd not budge. Hell - I wouldn't.

It's summer - many owners in tourist areas will play the waiting game here now anyway. I've a friend whose company has a (company perk) terrace property in Mijas-Costa. They always get enquiries from the folk who handle the renting (when they don't want to use it) during Summer "Do you want to sell?" None in Winter.

If you want to retain equity and are not in a PANIC - YOU'RE RIGHT TO WAIT. Don't want to wait - accept the rules of play in effect here. 

My gut feel tells me that HERE it will get worse until about April 2009 - at a minimum. But whether it will drastically affect "holiday/retirement" properties is something else.

The question for you, it seems to me, is:- WILL IT get proportionally better or worse in the UK?. I don't know.


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## crookesey (May 22, 2008)

Two interesting replies from jojo and chris. On the legalities issue it is very easy to use a UK based international solicitor, they have branches abroad but your dealings are in the UK and in so being you have the full weight of the UK Law Society behind you.

One of the properties is a 17th century village house conversion (two houses converted into one). It was architect supervised and has all of the required licences and permissions. And if it shouldn't be there then it has taken the local authorites circa 350 years to notice.  The others are more modern villas on urbanisations, not being a lawyer I would not know if any of them are legal or not . However my UK international solicitor should be able to tell me or if not he/she ends up infront of the English Law Society with a possible claim against his/her professional indemnity insurance, and could be struck off the register. 

There is a misconception regarding the UK property market, hardly anything is selling because there is hardly anything for sale. If you were selling and buying in the UK you would no doubt have to drop your price, as would the person who you were buying off. Both transactions would be logged as price decreases, but if you were moving up in price you would have gained a far better deal than prior to this so called reccesion. 

If other members of the euro zone are buying Spanish property then I haven't noticed it. The thousands of properties for sale are in the main awaiting offers from the UK, and if they are dependent on a sale in the UK and they want to sell then it is clearly 100% the sellers problem. 

As for the strength of the euro being 100% our problem Spain has to balance its economy on factors beyond its control making the currently strong euro 100% its problem. Take the normal influx of UK holidaymakers, holiday home owners and potential expats out of the system and Spain is far nearer to a recession than is the UK.  

We have a vast under supply of property, a lack of confidence in the banking sector and a lot of people with debt caused by them constantly treating their homes as piggy banks. Give it 2 years, a new government, a stable stock market and a vibrant building sector and we will be back in business, but will we come to Spain in droves with an 80p euro? Which euro member is going to be the first to quit the zone? God only knows what will happen to it if they allow countries such as Turkey, Bulgaria and Poland to join it?


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

crookesey said:


> Two interesting replies from jojo and chris. On the legalities issue it is very easy to use a UK based international solicitor, they have branches abroad but your dealings are in the UK and in so being you have the full weight of the UK Law Society behind you.
> 
> One of the properties is a 17th century village house conversion (two houses converted into one). It was architect supervised and has all of the required licences and permissions. And if it shouldn't be there then it has taken the local authorites circa 350 years to notice.  The others are more modern villas on urbanisations, not being a lawyer I would not know if any of them are legal or not . However my UK international solicitor should be able to tell me or if not he/she ends up infront of the English Law Society with a possible claim against his/her professional indemnity insurance, and could be struck off the register.
> 
> There is a misconception regarding the UK property market, hardly anything is selling because there is hardly anything for sale. If you were selling and buying in the UK you would no doubt have to drop your price, as would the person who you were buying off. Both transactions would be logged as price decreases, but if you were moving up in price you would have gained a far better deal than prior to this so called reccesion.


I just bucked the trend and bought a flat in the UK!! The price we settled on was £26k below their original asking price.

I think you have to differentiate here in Spain between your urbanization box like property, duplicated 200 times and quality villas with their own pools and decent land. My experience is that the box is going to be stuck on your hands for some time to come unless you are willing to discount the price substantially. The villa however, although a small discount may be necessary, will move more easily and therefore unless desperate owners are less inclines to give huge discounts. A lot of Eastern Europeans are buying around here at the moment.

I'm afraid the devaluation of your home in the UK has got to be your problem I'm afraid, I cant see anyone here accepting that as a valid reason for chopping their sale price


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

crookesey said:


> Two interesting replies from jojo and chris. On the legalities issue it is very easy to use a UK based international solicitor, they have branches abroad but your dealings are in the UK and in so being you have the full weight of the UK Law Society behind you.
> 
> One of the properties is a 17th century village house conversion (two houses converted into one). It was architect supervised and has all of the required licences and permissions. And if it shouldn't be there then it has taken the local authorites circa 350 years to notice.  The others are more modern villas on urbanisations, not being a lawyer I would not know if any of them are legal or not . However my UK international solicitor should be able to tell me or if not he/she ends up infront of the English Law Society with a possible claim against his/her professional indemnity insurance, and could be struck off the register.


It really isnt that simple - there are hundreds if not thousands of illegal builds, conversions etc in Spain - all with the correct paperwork and aadly it doesnt even necessarily come to light when you buy/sell. a lot of the local mayors will give out any permissions and paperwork you want for the right price, but the government wont back the properties if its found out - hence we have the mayor of Marbella in our local prison at the moment and honest people getting there houses demolished!! Just be careful. I would everso strongly reccomend you use a local lawyer who understands the local differences and loopholes. You'd be hard pushed to find a UK/international lawyer who could negotiate the wierd goings on over here - and it seems to me each area is different, with a different set of cons and curruptions.

Jo


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## crookesey (May 22, 2008)

Stravinsky said:


> I just bucked the trend and bought a flat in the UK!! The price we settled on was £26k below their original asking price.
> 
> I think you have to differentiate here in Spain between your urbanization box like property, duplicated 200 times and quality villas with their own pools and decent land. My experience is that the box is going to be stuck on your hands for some time to come unless you are willing to discount the price substantially. The villa however, although a small discount may be necessary, will move more easily and therefore unless desperate owners are less inclines to give huge discounts. A lot of Eastern Europeans are buying around here at the moment.
> 
> I'm afraid the devaluation of your home in the UK has got to be your problem I'm afraid, I cant see anyone here accepting that as a valid reason for chopping their sale price


Strav,

The British sellers of our favoured property openly admit that they are coming back to the UK to take advantage of falling prices. So I buy from them at a price set when a euro was worth 69 pence but pay them 79 pence per euro for it. They then come over to the UK looking for a bargain, they might even look at my house. 

No way Jose, if they wish to market their home primarily to UK nationals then they have to allow for the change in market conditions as in any other business, or market it to people in the euro zone. It is they who wish to sell and have been trying to do so for many months, we are not desperate to buy so it looks like a last man standing scenario. 

Your flat may have been reduced by £26K but flats had been marketed at very high prices prior to the credit crunch, you are probable paying its true market value.


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

crookesey said:


> Two interesting replies from jojo and chris. On the legalities issue it is very easy to use a UK based international solicitor, they have branches abroad but your dealings are in the UK and in so being you have the full weight of the UK Law Society behind you.
> 
> One of the properties is a 17th century village house conversion (two houses converted into one). It was architect supervised and has all of the required licences and permissions. And if it shouldn't be there then it has taken the local authorites circa 350 years to notice.  The others are more modern villas on urbanisations, not being a lawyer I would not know if any of them are legal or not . However my UK international solicitor should be able to tell me or if not he/she ends up in front of the English Law Society with a possible claim against his/her professional indemnity insurance, and could be struck off the register.
> 
> ...


1) All Spanish legal issues are done in Spanish (even if translated) - where a difference of opinion exists THE SPANISH ONE is always the correct one. The UK law Society means less (if anything) in A Spanish law court. And Spanish law is FULL of ambiguities. I'll bet any decent lawyer will factor that in. I have a Spanish lawyer that studied EU law (in French) in the Sorbonne. He made it quite clear that if I want to fight outside Spain - he'll get me a "local" lawyer. Much in law is reputation. 

2) Sometimes an existing owner will be allowed to do things that a NEW one is not - but if it's recently been done THEN it should be OK - But don't think that it's always the case. I've seen stuff pushed through on old properties where the residents family has been living there there "forever" - I believe the term is "grandfathering". It's not necessarily a transferable thing. 

3) How many pages purely in French or German have you researched? - I know properties only advertised in German around Torrevieja - the owners don't speak English. The lack of UK buyers may actually increase the number of Euro buyers as UK buyers will have less bargaining power. But like Strav says VILLAS are NOT in the same class as a workers flat. Villas here are stable in price. Why? - because there are potentially folk there who will eventually make capricious purchases. They want a place in the sun - end of story.

4) Spain does not need more residents UNLESS they'll generate real business/employment. Retirees do not generally spend much or hire many folk. Tourists do, though. 

5) Sale depends on BOTH sides - but if the seller is NOT in a PANIC and does not need immediate sale - then he wont drop price. Having something advertised is not the same as NEEDING to sell. In fact I know folk with stuff advertised with NO INTENTION at all of selling - unless somebody makes them a silly offer. 

6) Who'll quit the Eurozone? I'm not sure anybody will at the moment. There's a lot more to it than money. As for 2 years that's a bit optimistic. Right now Sterling is in a bad way - end of story (and yes I have UK investments). 

True in 2 years the pound MIGHT be strong and then you'll have an equity advantage - Now you do not and like it or not - that's the way it is. 

Wait 2 years and see.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Crookesey, may I just say that all is not as it seems here in Spain, I've been shocked and my husband actually dislikes Spain because: and I'll quote my husband: "Everyone in Spain lies and cheats and the expat Brits are the worst, be it selling properties or satalite dishes or cars...."

I hope I havent offended anyone, thats not my intention, I just want Crookesey to realise that he isnt necessarily on to a "win win" situation, he needs to be a little less trusting of his situation

Just my thoughts - well, my OHs thoughts LOL!! 

Jo


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

crookesey said:


> The British sellers of our favoured property openly admit that they are coming back to the UK to take advantage of falling prices. So I buy from them at a price set when a euro was worth 69 pence but pay them 79 pence per euro for it. They then come over to the UK looking for a bargain, they might even look at my house.


And if they get away with it - then why not. 

You're not prepared to play their game - well good for you. But they can simply wait for the next interested party. They've time on their hands at a guess. Sound to me as if they're simply trying to boost their own equity.

If I was set to move from Spain to the UK without any hurry - I do EXACTLY that.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

......... and another question my husband asked himself which is another reason why we didnt buy in Spain was "what happens if we dont like it and want to sell and move back to the UK??" It costs an absolute fortune with all the additional taxes etc..!!!

Jo


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

jojo said:


> "Everyone in Spain lies and cheats and the expat Brits are the worst, be it selling properties or satalite dishes or cars...."


Well I've never dealt much commercially with ex-pats anywhere - but there is a HUGE tendency for established ex-pats of ALL NATIONS to prey upon their "new same nationality neighbours". It happens ALL OVER THE WORLD. We see it here Romanians, South Americans, Moroccans. By nature we TRUST our fellow countrymen - well mostly (especially if we're not great linguistically) - I've not met many other Trinidadians (except my Godfathers wife in Canada) so it's hard for me to say. But I'd trust Winnie naturally - she's family after all.

Having been a professional "truth flavouring expert (marketing)" here and in Germany, I've been part of it - but GOOD salesmen DO NOT LIE EVER. They may however forget things unless you ask!. Desperate ones will lie through their teeth. Spain is commercially full of middle-men. It's how the system has worked here for a long time. Many of them are VERY VERY GOOD INDEED. It drives me wild dealing with middle men - and I've upset a few by bypassing them esp. on international deals - often just because I could. It helps to pass the time.

So - Anybody want to buy this bike......................


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

jojo said:


> ......... and another question my husband asked himself which is another reason why we didnt buy in Spain was "what happens if we dont like it and want to sell and move back to the UK??" It costs an absolute fortune with all the additional taxes etc..!!! Jo


Yup. My experience of ALL cross border moves is it aint cheap - Unless your company moves you and pays it all. To date I have paid two and had two freebies. I don't forsee many freebies now. Prior to this last move - I always rented.


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

crookesey said:


> you are probable paying its true market value.


Whats a _true_ market value


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## rowlandsbb (Jun 30, 2007)

*Spanish Property Market*

All the comments are very interesting and after taking everything in to account it all comes down to personal choice as regards life style buys
No use waiting for the market to reach bottom or living in hope of big price drops, when life is passing by and you may wait for ever and miss out on an enjoyable life style

Same comes to picking the property, no use buying just because it is cheap if it is not what you really want

The market in Spain is very similar to UK....flat as a pancake but transaction still take place and it ticks over
For many in this type of market they just sit tight and wait for better times 
Not all developers have to sell and just close up shop for the time being

But if you look there are some good deals, even in the best locations and even the developers of the well located products are in buisness to sell , so a good time to extract value

Never make assumptions about the legality of a property, same as UK just make sure that it is a good title and there is no risk of what is known as Land Grab if you are in the country close to developing towns
If you give money to a developer get a Bank Guarantee straight away

Also remember that one day you may wish to sell so only buy property types which have both a Spanish and northern EU demand...a good example is Cave Houses....Spanish in general left them years ago never to return so re sales are to non Spanish....very restricted market

Buying a new life style home or a holiday home done properly anywhere is hard work but to many well worth it.....more often than not any potential profit is a bonus

The predictions are that EU property market will be flat till circa 2010 and then start to move again...next boom is circa 10 years .....so any life style buyer will find a well located property in Spain [ or other established EU economies] should turn out to be a good buy in 2008!


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## crookesey (May 22, 2008)

Am I naive? several forum members appear to be able to spot an illegal structure from 100 paces, something that I certainly cannot.

When I mentioned that I might be using a large firm of bilingual lawyers with offices all over the world I am advised to use someone local. And apparently the UK Law society is powerless when one of its members breaks the rules or makes a very serious error, thats news to me. 

We are only talking about Spain, not Mars. I buy property with my head not my heart, I have been involved in the purchase of 6 investment properties over the years, one of them my solicitor begged me not to buy, it made me 200% profit in 7 years. 

Did Strav read every word of the lease of his newly aquired UK apartment? My wife inherited the freehold of a two apartments conversion a few years ago. When I read the copy leases I found that in the event of a dispute between the owners involving maintainance and repairs it is her responsibility to carry out the work at her expense and then invoice the owners accordingly.

A lot of investment property owners in my city use out of town solicitors to avoid using one that might be in bed with the agent/developer, so much for using someone local.

Well I have to find something before I enter this veritable minefield, so first things first.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

You asked for comments. so I was trying to pass on the some of the lessons I've learnt so far. I obviously didnt do as much research as you've done before coming over. My comments are based the things I've seen and heard first hand since I've been here. So I'll bow to your superior wisdom and knowledge

I hope it goes according to plan for you.... and most definately YES to your first question!

Jo x


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

crookesey said:


> Did Strav read every word of the lease of his newly aquired UK apartment?


Well yes actually I did 

Crookesey, I honestly think you misunderstand peoples motives here. I'll tell you a story I don't often tell, as I was pretty ashamed of it. Maybe you'll realise then why its always formost in my mind, and maybe with jojo as well.

Four years or so ago we found a plot of land which was on a hillside with beautiful views. There was a local builder who had been operating for years and had built a lot of properties up here. We put down a deposit. Solicitor employed etc etc. There were 3 plots on the hillside, but the builder was going to change this to 5 smaller plots of 800 m each, and the paperwork was in hand.

We had a good contract with penalty clauses for late delivery of the building, and get out clauses along the way should we wish to bale out.

All progressed on time and eventually the time came for us to collect the keys and go to the notary. I sent various emails to solicitor and builder telling them when I was coming over to do the deed and asked the builder to fax docs to the solicitor for perusal.

I arrived in Spain and went to the builders offices as I had heard little, and was told there was a slight hold up with the papers but we could have the keys anyway.

To cut a long story short, that was 3 years ago. I got my escuitura about 6 months ago. The builder didn't even put in the planning application until last September, let alone anything to re segregate the plots. In the meantime I had sacked my solicitor and got another one who had to sort the problems out, as clearly we had bought an illegal dwelling.

Three doors down with a different solicitor they have the same problem, and have now changed to my solicitor to sort their problem out. Next door completed their papers last month. A Swiss couple that use theirs as a holiday home next door but one .... well ... I dont even know if they know they have a problem.

I was lucky. All I am saying is always take the route of least risk. Take nothing at face value, and walk away if you have any doubts. I also made good money out of property in the UK my friend ........ Spain is a different kettle of fish.

I'm sure you are experienced of dealing with property ... please dont think we are thinking you are daft, thats not the case, but I have seen so many many disasters since I've been modding on the forums and we just want you to be fully aware


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## crookesey (May 22, 2008)

jojo said:


> You asked for comments. so I was trying to pass on the some of the lessons I've learnt so far. I obviously didnt do as much research as you've done before coming over. My comments are based the things I've seen and heard first hand since I've been here. So I'll bow to your superior wisdom and knowledge
> 
> I hope it goes according to plan for you.... and most definately YES to your first question!
> 
> Jo x


I don't mind being classed as Naive, and have admitted that I can't spot an illegal property so that puts paid to my superior wisdom and knowledge doesn't it? I was just pointing out that the UK legal system IMHO leaves a lot to be desired, that's why it needs a Law Society that rules it with a rod of iron.

If someone would explain to naive me how they are able to spot an illegal property then it would be of immense assistance to everryone who doesn't have that gift. And yes I have done a lot of research, I also read a lot of books about football but I still can't play like Pele.


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

crookesey said:


> If someone would explain to naive me how they are able to spot an illegal property then it would be of immense assistance to everryone who doesn't have that gift. And yes I have done a lot of research, I also read a lot of books about football but I still can't play like Pele.


I dont think its possible .... and clearly my solicitor either wasn't bothered or didn't notice basic problems

Incidentally, the house that was knocked down by the authorities recently further south that made all the news was legal as far as documentation was concerned. The local authorities gave permission, escuitura, everything, but the ruling junta overuled them and said it was built on green belt. Up until the day before it was knocked down their solicitor was telling them it wouldn't happen.


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

I think it's necessary here to say that Spaniards with Spanish lawyers get caught out in Spain too. 

There was for example a large article in Yesterdays "El Pais" about folk who bought in 2005 from one of Spains leading construction co's. All legal and above board. 

The houses are still not built - the developer is defunct - but the deposits have not been returned DESPITE being correctly protected. There's apparently no true time frame for reimbursement. 

That last note from Strav is VERY important. LEGAL here means EVERYBODY SAYS IT'S LEGAL in WRITING and before a Public Notary. Once it's public it's VERY hard to overturn but can be!. The discrepancies between local/regional documents and CATASTRO are sometimes GIANT. Saw one last week where Catastro id's the plot as five times its real size. And I mean real - like there's a 50metre drop to a river where they say it's a path! 

When we bought our house - My wife went with a friend who's, shall we say, insistent and mistrusting. Both are Spanish. Between them they collected every scrap of info referring to the area, estate, plot, builder etc etc. They challenged everything unclear - there wasn't much - but was some. There is no "magic wand" or 6th sense - Though sometimes it's fair to follow the "No smoke without fire" concept.

Since I've worked in the Town Hall I've noted that the number of times the architects say "No, not possible, because......<law whatever>" as first reply has increased proportionally too. 

Currently there is a lot of mistrust in planning officers etc - and the slightest hint of a suspicion of anything vaguely illegal means the police rush in and copy everything (during which time nobody can work!) - There's one ongoing here in Madrid capital where a guy whose planning was TURNED DOWN has basically accused the officer of "expecting bribes" - turmoil. It'll be rejected - but my wife spent days copying documents. 

As for Lawyers - I'll be VERY SURPRISED if any law firm relies on bilingualism. Normally lawyers have to be officially recognised where they practise. This is evident when you see lawyers refer to the list of registered lawyers when faced with one they've not met. It's a BIG FAT BOOK. If yours are registered in Spain that is something else. This happens afair amount, I'm told - and it's fine if you have one of these - though I suspect you'd need to sue for malpractice here if you felt misrepresented. But even HUGE legal offices will use local muscle. 

Also my understanding is that a lawyer is only your tool. He's responsible for supplying/advising and contesting on your behalf. Unless they deliberately misinterpret the truth OR misrepresent themselves - normally they can easily back out IF they can demonstrate that they were misled. And face it - they're lawyers.

I've been involved as part of it (International vs local here). Imo because I used a local expert as opposed to a large international practise as the other party did - I won. It was not a property thing - we won on the fact that a small sub-clause in Spanish law invalidated 100% the other sides arguments - my lawyers boss had written the clause and was responsible for it becoming law. It was only in Spanish editions of the law books - I really don't know why - whether nobody thought it was important, or whether it was recent - I really don't care why. Also my lawyer hit them with it at the right time when we had nothing to lose and they had no time to consult up the chain of command - we were in fact in the notary's office with a legal 30min deadline. It was stroke of genius from my lawyer - but had me VERY nervous (took me a GOOD month to recover emotionally)


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## crookesey (May 22, 2008)

Stravinsky said:


> I dont think its possible .... and clearly my solicitor either wasn't bothered or didn't notice basic problems
> 
> Incidentally, the house that was knocked down by the authorities recently further south that made all the news was legal as far as documentation was concerned. The local authorities gave permission, escuitura, everything, but the ruling junta overuled them and said it was built on green belt. Up until the day before it was knocked down their solicitor was telling them it wouldn't happen.


After spending the weekend tramping around the second most popular National Park in the world, that starts 2 miles from my doorstep I wonder why I am bothering, albeit the weather has been glorious. 

I am coming round to the 17th century conversion village house that was architect supervised and completed 5 years ago and is supposed to have all the required permissions, licences etc. It stands on a 250 m2 plot with a 280 m2 build over 3 floors with the only external new build being a car port with large roof terrace above, it also has a large courtyard garden laid down to 'Patio de Luz' with fountain and lighting and the possibility of some sort of small above ground pool.

My thoughts are that if anything went wrong with it paperwork wise that it could hardly be pulled down considering that it has a house attached to it on either side. Is it possible to get the sellers to indemnify me against any possible fines, and if not what are they liable to amount to, and could I indemnify myself against them?


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

crookesey said:


> My thoughts are that if anything went wrong with it paperwork wise that it could hardly be pulled down considering that it has a house attached to it on either side. Is it possible to get the sellers to indemnify me against any possible fines, and if not what are they liable to amount to, and could I indemnify myself against them?


YOU NEED to make sure that ANY clauses are included in documents presented/signed and notarised. You make sure that the property is transferred free of debts/fines etc. And the seller thus accepts responsibility for such prior to the xsfer date.

And in case of incomplete work with "permissions" get AN OK from the town hall for subsequent completion PRIOR to signing and make sure that is notarised too. But a GOOD lawyer will do this - believe me YOU NEED ONE. And for Christs sake get a GOOD structural assessment on stuff that old. I was looking at the houses either side of some friends (in a tiny village west of Avila) at the weekend. Frankly I think they'd almost be better off if they had nothing either side!


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

chris(madrid) said:


> YOU NEED to make sure that ANY clauses are included in documents presented/signed and notarised. You make sure that the property is transferred free of debts/fines etc. And the seller thus accepts responsibility for such prior to the xsfer date.
> 
> And in case of incomplete work with "permissions" get AN OK from the town hall for subsequent completion PRIOR to signing and make sure that is notarised too. But a GOOD lawyer will do this - believe me YOU NEED ONE. And for Christs sake get a GOOD structural assessment on stuff that old. I was looking at the houses either side of some friends (in a tiny village west of Avila) at the weekend. Frankly I think they'd almost be better off if they had nothing either side!


Is it possible to contact the ruling junta as well as the town hall to see if they have any issues with the land / property?


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

One point about indemnities. 

We bought our place "free of debt" - notarised and witnessed by the BANK and their lawyers etc (who wanted to make very sure they were not subsidising a disaster - the bank manager is also a good family friend, which helped too). 

After we'd been here a while we were surprised to suddenly find our name/plot on the estate debtors list for unpaid maintenance. We keep ALL receipts and could show we'd paid since day1. Turned out to be the builder prior to sale. 

Now here's the problem. As plot owner you're still officially liable - you can legally be expected to pay and then reclaim off the previous owner. BUT what do you do if you cannot find them?. But in our case it was not that much, the estate managers knew the builder and where to find him (so did we) and went off to deal with it. Our name came off the list and a public apology to us was published - success.

2 years later it happened again. We once again presented the receipts and letter from the estate managers clearing us the previous time. They tried very hard to wriggle out of it. There were all sorts of accusations but we eventually it was cleared up. We sought legal advice.

Anecdotes: 

Next to us there are two plots, owned by two brothers - that were for sale.

A neighbours dad was very interested in one, they wanted really to sell both and offered a "knockdown" price. Both turned out to have MASSIVE debts - WAY more than the discount!. 

Eventually the owners have had to build a house on one plot to clear their debts. 

Another plot on our estate has been expropriated for non payment of dues.

One in front of us has had its building permits "paralysed" as the buyer did not pay the seller. This I discovered from the seller as he asked if we'd seen recent activity. There was a JCB parked on the plot. The then buyer was trying to SELL the plot with property - new victim was expected to pay a HEFTY deposit so he could clear his debts and get the building permits "unparalysed". 

Yesterday I saw the then seller showing folk around the plot. I guess time ran out. 

Just be careful.


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