# Some hope for autónomos?



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Will this be the government that, finally, overhauls Spain's ridiculous flat-rate social security contributions for the self-employed?









Spain planning Social Security contribution reform for the self-employed


The new system, which is still subject to talks, could see 13 brackets based on revenue that would mean monthly payments of anywhere between €90 and €1,220




english.elpais.com


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

I do.hope.so. I read about this yesterday.. .not holding my breath


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Maybe, but as soon as they are out the PP will undo any changes they make anyway.


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## Amy123123 (Aug 9, 2020)

Oh... ****. I get that it'd be great for some people but this would ruin me and my boyfriend.

Oh ****.


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## Amy123123 (Aug 9, 2020)

Surely this would leave most worse off? Anyone earning over 17k would pay more!

I've just looked again and this would mean my boyfriend would be paying triple the amount he would be, were he employed in the UK and paying national insurance... i haven't looked at the difference for me yet.

That combined with higher taxes anyway... it'll be bye bye Spain if this comes in.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Amy123123 said:


> Oh... ****. I get that it'd be great for some people but this would ruin me and my boyfriend.
> 
> Oh ****.





Amy123123 said:


> Surely this would leave most worse off? Anyone earning over 17k would pay more!


I earn way less than 17k and pay €305 per month 
So I'm happy if it happens. Also it helps boost start ups. Why should I pay the same as someone earning 20k . Start ups can pay as they build up. Rather than shouldering 285 plus a month with no guaranteed income


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## CltFlyboy (Feb 11, 2020)

Amy123123 said:


> Surely this would leave most worse off? Anyone earning over 17k would pay more!


That's the way I read the sliding scale - it's beneficial to those who make very little per year but will end up really screwing those trying to build a business. 

On the other hand, for instance, if I wanted to emigrate and I had a small biz that I wanted to start as a side hustle, if I keep it just as an entity that makes little money then I can pay a small fee to get into the system. That means I would be covered under national healthcare for pennies. Or am I reading this incorrectly?


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## Amy123123 (Aug 9, 2020)

Megsmum said:


> I earn way less than 17k and pay €305 per month
> So I'm happy if it happens. Also it helps boost start ups. Why should I pay the same as someone earning 20k . Start ups can pay as they build up. Rather than shouldering 285 plus a month with no guaranteed income


And I 100% agree that it needs changing to be fairer to people like you.

That shouldn't mean everyone else has to be screwed over instead though.

I'm shaking I'm so scared.

Edit to add: wouldn't it in fact discourage startups? At least those with ambition to grow? If i was considering starting a business, this would make me do it elsewhere. Just as it will force me out the country. We would be more than 1300 a month worse off than we would be employed in the UK.


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## Amy123123 (Aug 9, 2020)

Shaking so much I managed to duplicate post


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Amy123123 said:


> And I 100% agree that it needs changing to be fairer to people like you.
> 
> That shouldn't mean everyone else has to be screwed over instead though.
> 
> I'm shaking I'm so scared.


I get that I really do... But change will never suit everyone.. like I'm waiting an extra four years for my pension. I wouldn't stress too much.. as another poster said if PP get in itl be changed, I think it's going to take yearscforbit to be established...

The new system would be introduced next year, although its effects would not be felt until 2023, and there would be a transition period spanning nine years.

Long time for things to change


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Amy123123 said:


> And I 100% agree that it needs changing to be fairer to people like you.
> 
> That shouldn't mean everyone else has to be screwed over instead though.
> 
> ...


Mm I'm not sure. You can grow and then stop growing... I don't think start ups will object to lower levels... Most business start ups are really taking a punt on it working... can I ask what do you do??


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## Amy123123 (Aug 9, 2020)

Megsmum said:


> Mm I'm not sure. You can grow and then stop growing... I don't think start ups will object to lower levels... Most business start ups are really taking a punt on it working... can I ask what do you do??


I'd be extremely surprised if most startups had ambitions only to the point at which they wouldn't be significantly better off in another country, under the proposed system. In my experience those starting a business generally do it because they have big ambitions, or at a minimum an ambition to be somewhat more financially comfortable than they would be as an employee.

Then again I'm no expert on startups.

We both work in digital marketing. Our main source of income/main clients are our previous employers in the UK.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Amy123123 said:


> That combined with higher taxes anyway... it'll be bye bye Spain if this comes in.


What would you be paying in rent/council tax if you returned to the UK? Swings and roundabouts ...


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Amy123123 said:


> I'd be extremely surprised if most startups had ambitions only to the point at which they wouldn't be significantly better off in another country, under the proposed system. In my experience those starting a business generally do it because they have big ambitions, or at a minimum an ambition to be somewhat more financially comfortable than they would be as an employee.
> 
> Then again I'm no expert on startups.
> 
> We both work in digital marketing. Our main source of income/main clients are our previous employers in the UK.


But most I presume are Spanish so comparing to another country is a moot point. 
What do you pay now to be 1300 a month worse off afterwards? 
What would your outgoing be in the UK ... 
I hope it turns out ok for you, I can understand it's worrying for you. As I said earlier long way to go yet


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## Amy123123 (Aug 9, 2020)

In reply to both of the above, our outgoings are already more than in the UK (a small price to pay though for how happy we are here). Rent is a little more than we were paying in the UK, at least for something of a similiarish standard to what we had there.

Then there's fees to the gestor, and the fact taxes are already higher. That more than covers any council tax savings.

We're currently paying the lowest social security fee because of how long we've been here. I think in 14 months we will be paying the full amount. 

From that to the new system we would go from paying 600 a month between us to nearly 1800... so higher than my initial calculations.

Short of moving to a dark, dreary 1 bed flat and never going out or actually enjoying Spain (so what would be the point in being here?) we wouldn't have a hope in anywhere of surviving with an extra 1200 a month to pay. He also has a daughter to support.

It would without doubt mean leaving Spain.

Thank you Megsmum. I hope no end it works out too. We came here after losing our home and everything we own in a fire. I've since felt oddly... blessed, because we are happier than we ever thought possible. I can't fathom it all being taken back.

(Apologies for the sob story).


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Amy123123 said:


> In reply to both of the above, our outgoings are already more than in the UK (a small price to pay though for how happy we are here). Rent is a little more than we were paying in the UK, at least for something of a similiarish standard to what we had there.
> 
> Then there's fees to the gestor, and the fact taxes are already higher. That more than covers any council tax savings.
> 
> ...


Not a sob story, it's how you feel and how you got here. Just take a moment to breathe and try not to worry until it happens, we can't control this it's out of our hands. As I say. Long way to go yet XXX take care


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## Amy123123 (Aug 9, 2020)

Thank you, I appreciate the kind words


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

IF the proposal gets through as it stands (big if!) it would benefit a huge number of people - only those earning shedloads of money would pay the full rate, and not till 2031. All the low paid self-employed odd-jobbers, cleaners etc who currently work on the black because they can’t afford €300 a month would have the chance to contribute and be entitled to some sort of social security. And the plan is flexible, you can change your contribution base up to six times a year if your estimated earnings are lower than anticipated.

It isn’t perfect by any means - €90 is still a lot to find if you have a month of not earning anything at all. But it’s a step in the right direction.

Another bit of good news is the “Ley Rider” - delivery workers for companies like Deliveroo will have to be treated as salaried employees, not autónomos. This law was passed a couple of days ago.

El Consejo de Ministros aprueba la ley de ‘riders’: “El mundo nos está mirando”


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

This is Spain. Nobody will pay the full rate. Those who can earn well into that category will be well served by accountants who know the loop holes and ways to disguise the incomes and outgoings so that they appear poorer than they really are.
The only people who "suffer" sliding scale deductions are emoloyees who can't fail to disclose their full earnings or deduct expenses.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

I would be happy for this to come in having been a qualified, experienced, self employed, but low income worker for many years. Becoming autónoma was one of the worst decisions I ever made, but on the other hand I have rarely been unemployed and that was because companies wanted to contract self employed workers....
Last year in September I was unemployed and although I was fairly sure I would get employment sooner or later I didn't know as there was a huge shift in the market due to the pandemic. The company I had been working for didn't carry on due to cost cutting because of the pandemic. When I tried to claim unemployment, after being asked for 10 different documents I was told I wasn't eligible. That is not good news to hear after more than 20 years of paying those high rates...
Ps. Have been employed from October onwards
PPS. I'll have retired, hopefully before this comes in fully


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Overandout said:


> Maybe, but as soon as they are out the PP will undo any changes they make anyway.


And they are likely to be out pretty soon, aren't they?


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## webmarcos (Dec 25, 2012)

Overandout said:


> This is Spain. Nobody will pay the full rate. Those who can earn well into that category will be well served by accountants who know the loop holes and ways to disguise the incomes and outgoings so that they appear poorer than they really are.
> The only people who "suffer" sliding scale deductions are emoloyees who can't fail to disclose their full earnings or deduct expenses.


It used to be the case that autonomo fees could be offset as an expense against any tax bill, so I suspect you're right.
As mentioned above, for many self employed they can't get the lucrative contracts unless they are registered.
May not be of interest if you're young or have few years on the system, but for others bear in mind your state pension will be far greater in Spain (if you have enough contribution years) - the Brit pension is very poor as they expect you to have a private and/or work pension to top it up.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I would be happy for this to come in having been a qualified, experienced, self employed, but low income worker for many years. Becoming autónoma was one of the worst decisions I ever made, but on the other hand I have rarely been unemployed and that was because companies wanted to contract self employed workers....
> Last year in September I was unemployed and although I was fairly sure I would get employment sooner or later I didn't know as there was a huge shift in the market due to the pandemic. The company I had been working for didn't carry on due to cost cutting because of the pandemic. When I tried to claim unemployment, after being asked for 10 different documents I was told I wasn't eligible. That is not good news to hear after more than 20 years of paying those high rates...
> Ps. Have been employed from October onwards
> PPS. I'll have retired, hopefully before this comes in fully


Gosh. That's awful

I've been able and still am claiming sickness benefit during my treatment. The payments have been good and regular and no payments out apart from a €3 insurance fee which is why I'm getting benefits. I'm not due to be reviewed by the system until after my next scan. I did have to pay €309 a month for the initial three months of sickness though with no income at all. I'm lucky. My jobs there ready in October, Covid allowing


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