# moving to France



## Itsmeagain

Hi all. 
My Wife and I have just handed our notice/contracts in and have 3 months paid work left. Our house is being prepared to go on the market very soon and once sold we will relocate to France. 
Neither of us speak very good French but are trying to learn and will be immersing ourselves when work eases off. We have visited several areas and viewed a few properties but haven't found the right one yet so will be coming over again for a few days in February and for a further period as soon as work ceases and the house is sold. We wish to buy a property and run Gites full time (I know!) and will have a budget of around €900,000 max. 
The information we have gleaned so far is confusing as to what our first steps should be. Do we find a property first, travelling on our UK passports which give 90 days? Is there any formal guidance anywhere? 
Sorry, I know I have opened myself up to lots of heads scratching but would love some non judgemental advice. 
Thanks, 
James.


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## Bevdeforges

It all kind of depends on what sort of visa you're planning on applying for. Unless you are going as retirees with a pension (or other means of financial support), you're going to have to qualify for a visa that allows you to work if you'll be relying on the gites for your regular income. In other words, you probably need to have the means of financial support lined up before you apply for a visa.

You can certainly find and purchase a property while on a "tourist" visa (which is what the 90 day "Schengen" visa is), but be advised that passing title on the property will take at least a good 3 months after your offer on the property has been accepted. 

Honestly, it may be difficult to justify moving to France on a visa allowing you to work when your plans are to buy and operate a gite full time. You will have to establish a business entity for the gite business in order to properly enroll in the tax and social insurance systems and that puts you squarely in "which came first? chicken or egg?" territory. You may want to look at the requirements for the "passeport talent" visa - where your declared purpose for coming to France is to start up a business. I'm not sure, but you may need to prepare a business plan that shows how your gite business is somehow "innovative" or otherwise beneficial to France. This page gives you the details about that program: International talents | France-Visas.gouv.fr


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## Itsmeagain

Bevdeforges said:


> It all kind of depends on what sort of visa you're planning on applying for. Unless you are going as retirees with a pension (or other means of financial support), you're going to have to qualify for a visa that allows you to work if you'll be relying on the gites for your regular income. In other words, you probably need to have the means of financial support lined up before you apply for a visa.
> 
> You can certainly find and purchase a property while on a "tourist" visa (which is what the 90 day "Schengen" visa is), but be advised that passing title on the property will take at least a good 3 months after your offer on the property has been accepted.
> 
> *Honestly, it may be difficult to justify moving to France on a visa allowing you to work when your plans are to buy and operate a gite full time. You will have to establish a business entity for the gite business in order to properly enroll in the tax and social insurance systems and that puts you squarely in "which came first? chicken or egg?" territory.* You may want to look at the requirements for the "passeport talent" visa - where your declared purpose for coming to France is to start up a business. I'm not sure, but you may need to prepare a business plan that shows how your gite business is somehow "innovative" or otherwise beneficial to France. This page gives you the details about that program: International talents | France-Visas.gouv.fr


Hi and thanks for the informative response. 
That's exactly the first of many issues I've come up against. We are planning to move completely to France, no ties to the UK at all. We are not of pensionable age so our income would indeed be totally dependant on our purchase. Ideally we would have liked to buy a property and set up from scratch a bespoke set of buildings for tourism, but are not averse to buying an existing set up with income/bookings in place. I'll have a look at your link and see if it sheds any more light. 
James.


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## Bevdeforges

If you're looking to set up an entreprise in France, you should start looking at the websites for the departemental CCIs - Example here for the CCI for the Paris area (but there are CCIs in all the various departements): Accueil

Under the heading of Entreprises they have lots of information about setting up, buying, selling or taking over an existing business. But it's usually all in French. (Use Google Translate or another online translator as needed.) The CCI section on new enterprises usually has a full section devoted to "reprenez une entreprise" which is about taking over an existing business. They usually carry listings of businesses looking to be bought out or otherwise taken over by a new owner - often with considerable assistance at the beginning from the original owner. Worth looking into - though the language may be a problem.


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## Crabtree

Frankly you are making a big mistake You will never make a living running gites France is overrun with them and these last couple of years have shown that a tiny piece of DNA can cause all sorts of problems-imagine if a Delta/Omicron mutation were to arise How many visitors will you get then? Have you any experience of running hospitality? Are you going to be able to construct a business plan which will show that you will be able to make a good profit to avoid being a drain on the french state? Even if you were to buy an up and running business the turn over for the last couple of years will have been pitiful and you are going to have to show how you would build this up By not having a handle on the French language you are not going to be able to take full advantage of French customers and how will you navigate French bureaucracy? Are you aware of all the deductions that the French state will take off you which are not inconsiderable? France is no longer a cheap country and prices will only go in one direction and whatever you think renovating a place costs you can double it then add some more Bear in mind that if you are doing this for hospitality a lot will have to be done by registered tradespeople for insurance purposes 

Remember that as third party nationals you will require a Visa and have an interview where you will need to show how you will run a business make a living and understand fully what you are doing This process may take months to get an appointment
I am saying these things because I truly believe that your french dream will turn into a nightmare if you follow this through and I would hate this to happen


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## Crabtree

You might find these sites helpful




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Do you need a visa ? | France-Visas.gouv.fr


Try our visa wizard and check in a few clicks if you need a visa to come to France



france-visas.gouv.fr





www.cci.fr


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## Itsmeagain

Crabtree said:


> Frankly you are making a big mistake You will never make a living running gites France is overrun with them and these last couple of years have shown that a tiny piece of DNA can cause all sorts of problems-imagine if a Delta/Omicron mutation were to arise How many visitors will you get then? Have you any experience of running hospitality? Are you going to be able to construct a business plan which will show that you will be able to make a good profit to avoid being a drain on the french state? Even if you were to buy an up and running business the turn over for the last couple of years will have been pitiful and you are going to have to show how you would build this up By not having a handle on the French language you are not going to be able to take full advantage of French customers and how will you navigate French bureaucracy? Are you aware of all the deductions that the French state will take off you which are not inconsiderable? France is no longer a cheap country and prices will only go in one direction and whatever you think renovating a place costs you can double it then add some more Bear in mind that if you are doing this for hospitality a lot will have to be done by registered tradespeople for insurance purposes
> 
> Remember that as third party nationals you will require a Visa and have an interview where you will need to show how you will run a business make a living and understand fully what you are doing This process may take months to get an appointment
> I am saying these things because I truly believe that your french dream will turn into a nightmare if you follow this through and I would hate this to happen


Many thanks for the information and your honesty. 
We know that it will be extremely difficult and we have many hoops to jump through but we are dead set on this plan. It will take a lot to dissuade us. We have discussed the idea for many years and have spent a lot of our holiday time driving around and visiting different areas. We wish we could have acted before Brexit but the possibility was not there. Due to a change in our lives we now have the freedom, finances and the will to do it. We've run a successful business in the UK for 25 years and restored/developed several properties along the way so we're not afraid of long hours and hard work.
We do have the option of delaying slightly as we also have an apartment in Cyprus and could easily live there short term. 
We're not looking to make lot's of money from this, we want to be able to pay our bills and enjoy a different lifestyle along the way.


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## Crabtree

But the French authorities are going to want to see you making money-the days of scraping by for British expats are over as soon as FOM went out of the door.Whilst I applaud your get up and go I think you need to re evaluate a bit. The French are going to want to see regular income coming in from day one not sometime in the future and they are not too keen on lump sums My suggestion would be to buy a small place in the UK and rent it out, ditto the Cyprus apartment.This then gives you an income that you will see you through until you can start earning in France.The important thing is to show the French authorities that in the first five years that you are not going to suddenly fall on your face and end up costing them You should also be aware that if you get your Visa (which will need to be a working one) you will then need to get your Carte de Sejour from the Prefecture and it will need to renewed annually and you would have to show income etc to justify your presence in France.So take your time revaluate a little get yourself established in France and ensure that you have a fall back position in the UK


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## EuroTrash

Crabbers has put his finger on the crux of it I think.
The question I suppose is, how keen is France to grant visas to peeps who say themselves that they know what they plan to do will be extremely difficult etc. I have no idea what proportion of applications are successful but every developed country has to control immigration, which means picking and choosing from among applicants because you can't let them all in. So I think you need to build up as strong a dossier as you can, and a couple of rental properties can't hurt. However much you don't want to be dissuaded, you can't go ahead if you don't get the visa.

For sure the UK would not let immigrants in on the basis that they are willing to work hard and long hours and aim to earn enough money to pay their bills and have a nice life. France is however more accommodating.


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## Itsmeagain

Thanks everyone, much to think about... 
Please chip in if you agree/disagree with the advice so far - it seems well balanced and informative.


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## Bevdeforges

It used to be that the Americans wanting to move to France were more or less clueless about the whole visa issue, since other than at the southern border of the US, most have no experience with the issue. If you want some idea what is going on, just do a bit of research online about what the UK requires of foreigners who want to move to the UK. They don't make it easy - especially for those who have a "great idea" about what they'd like to do rather than a job offer with an employer willing to back them. And given that immigration rules are often "tit for tat" you might get a better idea of what you could be facing.


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## Itsmeagain

Well, we’ve taken on board all of the comments and are still determined to move although we are considering other ways and means.
We’ve found some properties and are hoping to view in a couple of weeks, lower in price but in need of refurbishment. Our plan would be to buy one and apply for a 12mth visa (non resident) and spend that time living in the property whilst refurbishing it and also undertaking immersive language lessons.
Hopefully after that year we would be in a position to apply for the working visa (resident) and start to rent the refurbished building.
We know it’ still risky but the maths works and it’s probably a more straight forward way to progress…
Any thoughts?


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## Bevdeforges

I don't believe there is a "non-resident" 12 month visa. Anything over 90 days is normally considered a "long-stay" visa and thus you are considered "resident" for the period of time that you are living in France. I think what you may be thinking of is a "non-renewable" one year visa - which basically means that you must return back "home" (wherever that may be) at the end of your stay - even if only to apply for a different type of visa. (We have a few forum members here who got caught by the difference between the one-year "non-renewable" visa and the one-year plus renewable one.)

Generally speaking, you can't apply for a "working visa" for yourself - other than perhaps the "Passeport Talent" which involves having a business plan to set up your own enterprise in France. This should give you a better idea of what the requirements are for the passport talent: International talents | France-Visas.gouv.fr

But whether just renting out a property you own falls under the terms of the passport talent I'm not sure.


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## 255

@Itsmeagain -- There was a couple who received the Passport Talent (when it was brand new,) and posted a thread on this forum to buy and refurbish a property with the intent to rent out "gîtes."). I do remember they prepared a thorough business plan, with I believe an extensive 5 year pro forma. They were successful! in receiving the Passport Talent. I do not know which of the current Passport Talent iterations you might qualify for -- but check the link @Bevdeforges provided to determine which one you might qualify. I wouldn't mess with a temporary resident permit -- refurbishing a property, with the intent to rent it out could easily be considered work. In fact tax wise, it would make sense to consider it work.. Cheers, 255


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