# Nuclear dump study



## Muddy (Jan 14, 2010)

In my search for various bits of info this time on wind power I came across an article back in June this year regarding "Nuclear dump study starts in Cabo de Gata"
Seems crazy they would even think about creating such a site in this area. But the thing that really struck me is how it reads.


> Any dump would be located around 1,000 meters below the surface, and would use natural bacteria to dissolve the radiation and carry the molecules into subterranean aquifers and the sea.


Full story here Nuclear dump study starts in Cabo de Gata

It sounds like a bit of a horror movie,


> carry the molecules into subterranean aquifers and the sea.


Sounds mad to me at least. I was under the impression that Spain was a leader in green energy and if they were planning on decommissioning why would they need a central storage dump!

Couldn't find further up to date info on this so does anyone know anything about this?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Well, earlier on this year the government asked ayuntamientos to step forward if they were interested in becoming a nuclear waste area, seen by some as attractive for jobs, improved communications. Has that got anything to do with it??


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## Muddy (Jan 14, 2010)

I guess it might do but I haven't found much on this at all. I did find your post back in Jan and that link you posted seems to tie into the one I posted also. But as far as jobs go after the nuce waste dump site would only employ 100 workers so hardly an argument to be used looking at these sorts of numbers! Of course the carrots will be dangled I'm sure if it actually goes ahead to be built.

Lets hope Spain goes more down this route and doesn't start dumping waste in clean areas.
Europe turns to Africa for energy from the sun - Feature | Earth Times News

This article is more up to date, AUGUST 4, 2010 and suggests a decision was due in just weeks but I can't find more on this. Is it hush hush or isn't Spain as a (w)hole!! that bothered.
It seems such short term thinking and long term problems. If towns or villages are bidding for this dump in their back yard to create a few jobs then they've lost the plot, there must be a better way to create jobs and more of them and not just for one small area in Spain IMHO.
Spanish Town Dreams of Nuclear Dump - WSJ.com


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Muddy said:


> I guess it might do but I haven't found much on this at all. I did find your post back in Jan and that link you posted seems to tie into the one I posted also. But as far as jobs go after the nuce waste dump site would only employ 100 workers so hardly an argument to be used looking at these sorts of numbers! Of course the carrots will be dangled I'm sure if it actually goes ahead to be built.
> 
> Lets hope Spain goes more down this route and doesn't start dumping waste in clean areas.
> Europe turns to Africa for energy from the sun - Feature | Earth Times News
> ...


I posted smth??
Ah it _*was*_ in January. You can't expect me to remember smth I did almost a year ago now, can you?
Are you looking for articles in English? If so, that could be the reeason that it's difficult to find anything. It depends whether the British find the subject interesting enough to translate. But I'm interested so I'll have a look.


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## Muddy (Jan 14, 2010)

A year, a month, a day, they all seem to merge sometimes lol 
Yes that would explain it as I'm just looking in English, no chance me finding anything in Spanish as I'm still in learning mode! Thanx for taking a look!
Mind you I didn't think to try translating some searches, I guess I could try that.

Yeah I suppose you're right, maybe not enough Brits interested in this but that surprises me as Spain is our 2nd home right 

I found this on the Greenpeace site
It's time to stand up to the energy giants | Greenpeace UK

It's not specific but it does mention back in July 2009 that Spain had shut the door to Nuclear power so it will be interesting to see what has been said before is actually being done now!
Going on what I read the UK has missed the boat on green energy, and if Spain returns to the Nuclear route it will lose out on creation of many jobs over Nuclear power could ever create IMHO.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Muddy said:


> In my search for various bits of info this time on wind power I came across an article back in June this year regarding "Nuclear dump study starts in Cabo de Gata"
> Seems crazy they would even think about creating such a site in this area. But the thing that really struck me is how it reads.
> 
> Full story here Nuclear dump study starts in Cabo de Gata
> ...


Hi Muddy, glad to see someone else on here is interested in this sort of thing! I also did some research a few weeks ago.

They aren't planning on decommissioning the 8 nuclear power stations that are currently in use. At the moment nuclear waste is just piling up at these places, not being sent anywhere for reprocessing. So they need to find somewhere to put it PDQ.

Renewable energy sources were intended to provide 40 percent of Spain's energy needs by 2010, but they have just frozen investment in new solar farms as part of the austerity measures.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

From the 25th September
El Gobierno aplaza sin fecha la ubicación del almacén nuclear · ELPAÍS.com
Sorry, I hate translating, and also don't do such a good job on it (unless I'm getting paid of course! I've just corrected the subtitles on a short film about Fariñas, the Cuban hunger striker, to be shown at a film festival in Berlin) but...a couple of things it says are:

_*El Ejecutivo no maneja ningún plazo para escoger entre los ocho municipios candidatos a albergar el Almacén Temporal Centralizado (ATC),*_ 
The executive (committee) does not have a deadline by which it has to choose between the 8 local councils who have applied to operate the Temporary Nuclear Residue Site
_*...el Gobierno ha vuelto a ignorar los mensajes del responsable de Industria que durante esta semana ha insistido en la necesidad de seleccionar un municipio "lo antes posible".*_
The government, once again, has ignored the messages from the Minister of Industry (Miguel Sebastián) who this week has insisted on the need to select a municipality "as soon as possible"

Sebastián recommends these places (in order of preference) Zarra (Valencia), closely followed by Ascó (Tarragona), and then Yebra (Guadalajara) y Villar de Cañas (Cuenca)
Asco in Spanish, (without the accent note) means disgusting...

Apparently there is no where at the moment to send nuclear waste in Spain so it's piling up at the nuclear reactors.


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## Muddy (Jan 14, 2010)

Hi Alcalaina, yeah this issue of nuclear power or waste is high on my list really. I'm not a member of any flag waving, face painting hippy types that almost always will be made to look bad if making a protest, but I'm right with them on something like this.
I'm not a big fan of wind farms either (oh dear an unintended joke ) )
What does Spain have bundles of, Sun. And of course you don't need sun for solar power as I believe the new type of solar cells are very efficient.

That's a real shame they're not planning on decommissioning, but fine, things are bad now and not much cash to spend on new tech so keep them running as long as they're in tiptop condition. I thought I read that there was problems with a reactor at one site so I'll try to find that story and post.
No one should have the right to run an installation that isn't 100% safe, but in times like we are in now I can imagine the decision makers letting safety slip just a little to save some money and jobs. With tech like this not even the smallest risk should be taken. Lets hope they're not taking any of the 8 reactors past their life cycle and taking any risk!

Well it's a real disappointment the investment for solar is has been frozen.
Any details on this, have they stopped funding all new projects etc?
And what percentage of power is coming from Renewable energy sources right now? How far off were they!

Hi, Pesky Wesky. Thanx for the info. No deadline and I'm now wondering just how full are these sites with waste!
It would appear not proper forward planning in the waste area at least! 

Is that right


> "Temporary Nuclear Residue Site"


 How can a Nuclear waste site be temporary!
Would like to know how that is going to work. This doesn't match up with the description on how the waste is proposed t be stored I think!


> Any dump would be located around 1,000 meters below the surface, and would use natural bacteria to dissolve the radiation and carry the molecules into subterranean aquifers and the sea.


My idea of storage is the bomb and train crash proof containers that I remember seeing many years ago in the UK.
What exactly is Spain going to use? It sounds like it's going to be just dumped into a hole if the above quote is anything close to accurate! Very worrying!!

I would have thought the powers that be would have had some proper four-thought about this. Is this an indication of the reactors running over their allotted time, hence running out of local site storage!
It strikes me as strange how this could happen, so they must be running the sites for longer than originally intended me thinks!! 

So it seems to me some of the important points that need to be ticked off are.

Are reactors being run beyond intended life cycle and if so with any risk?
Is current waste being stored on site safely?
Is nuclear waste going be stored in sealed containers?
(sounds like a stupid question, but if the quote above is correct from Nuclear dump study starts in Cabo de Gata then it needs clarification!..


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Muddy said:


> Hi, Pesky Wesky. Thanx for the info. No deadline and I'm now wondering just how full are these sites with waste!
> It would appear not proper forward planning in the waste area at least!
> 
> Is that right How can a Nuclear waste site be temporary!
> ...


Well, it's my translation and I'm sure there's another name for these sites really, but that's what the article said.

I've just found this in an article from El País 


> Actualmente, cada central nuclear guarda sus propios residuos, pero la vuelta de los de Vandellòs I enviados a Francia tras el cierre de la planta en 1989, prevista para 2011, el cierre de Garoña y la saturación de las piscinas en las que se albergan en las centrales apremia la búsqueda de un emplazamiento para un periodo de 60 años


Currently each nuclear plant stores its own waste, but (...)the saturation of the pools where the waste is stored means that a place to store it for a period of 60 years is needed.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Here's a link to another thread about solar power
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/spain-expat-forum-expats-living-spain/42976-solar-power-spain.html
And here's a link to a video about a solar tower in Spain




And another thread
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...ain/31366-good-news-those-living-spain-2.html


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Re the government's reduction of solar farm investment:

Spain’s Solar Power Sector Falls into the Abyss Renewable Energy Tariff UK

This is not to say there won't be any, but without government subsidies it is a less attractive proposition for the private sector as there is a huge initial outlay. 

As for wind farms, I live in one of the windiest parts of Spain and there are literally thousands of turbines round here. I personally favour them, but they have a lot of opponents. I heard a horror story the other day about local farmers receiving half a million euros to locate turbines on their land, going off to live a champagne lifestyle somewhere and leaving their farms in the hands of managers who take backhanders from ICI etc to buy and use illegal pesticides they can't get rid of elsewhere. I don't know how widespread this is, but it is scary.

I'd still rather have windmills on the horizon than cooling-towers though.


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## Guest (Dec 5, 2010)

to me it seems very backwards to go out and ask who might be interested in storing nuclear waste. If it is supposed to stored in holes, then a thorough study of which areas might be safe enough would be the starting point. As I understand from other countries very few areas are suitable. Also, I thought the whole idea was to keep the stuff sealed there for as long as possible, thousands of years, not to let it sift out in water or the sea??? Either the articles are written by people who does not know or the Spanish governement need some expertise help?

I guess most people already read about the solar project in Sahara that is said to produce 1/4 of Europe's need in 2050. (Can not give links because I am new).


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## Muddy (Jan 14, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Currently each nuclear plant stores its own waste, but (...)the saturation of the pools where the waste is stored means that a place to store it for a period of 60 years is needed.


Thanx for that info. It does seem crazy how they got to this point in time and not have a medium or long term plan in place for storage.
If they are planning on a 60 year storage term then this still leave the question open on what were they talking about


> "Temporary Nuclear Residue Site"


That's interesting as I've not seen that type of generator before "Solar Tower Energy in Spain, Madrid"
Just wondering if they can make the sheeting higher so it would leave the land more open to other uses!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

The whole nuclear industry was based on the premise that someone will work out what to do with the waste some day. I remember reading about this when I was doing Environmental Studies at college in the 70s. And now time is running out.

I´m not keen on that tower - I know its only a protoype but it uses up a lot of land for very little return. Unless they can work out a way of growing something edible underneath it?


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## Muddy (Jan 14, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> Re the government's reduction of solar farm investment:
> 
> Spain’s Solar Power Sector Falls into the Abyss Renewable Energy Tariff UK
> 
> ...


Yeah it would seem like bad news on this front.
I would be interesting to see a graph showing cost and investment along side what Nuclear has and is still costing!

And looking at this story I guess it reads good and bad, but more good I think.
Maybe big subsidies = cowboys trying to make a fast buck!
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/09/business/energy-environment/09solar.html?_r=1&th&emc=th

This I thought was great


> Although Spain’s long-term goal had been to produce 400 megawatts of electricity from solar panels by 2010, it reached that milestone by the end of 2007.


Plus overall it would seem these sorts of projects produce more jobs, the downturn has kicked in the teeth which is a real shame and not its fault.

I guess it makes sense to have a spread of different technology to produce power, but what should win is what's clean, efficient and doesn't have too much impact on the landscape, people, wildlife etc..
What ever happened to them Irish guys and cold fusion I remembering hearing about some time back


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## Muddy (Jan 14, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> The whole nuclear industry was based on the premise that someone will work out what to do with the waste some day. I remember reading about this when I was doing Environmental Studies at college in the 70s. And now time is running out.
> 
> I´m not keen on that tower - I know its only a protoype but it uses up a lot of land for very little return. Unless they can work out a way of growing something edible underneath it?


See that what I hate about a few people in power for a short while making a name for themselves and not seeing the bigger picture and looking ahead. With nuclear you have to look forward thousands of years regarding the waste, these guys didn't even bother to plan for the short term, sods 

Yes the tower!
I agree, the land underneath shouldn't be lost and not be usable.

One thing I think should happen is all new builds should have a proportion of power produced on site, not sure how doable that is but it would be a start in the right direction rather that just connect every new building to the grid!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Muddy said:


> Yeah it would seem like bad news on this front.
> I would be interesting to see a graph showing cost and investment along side what Nuclear has and is still costing!
> 
> And looking at this story I guess it reads good and bad, but more good I think.
> ...


Irish? This was (and still is) a joint European project. I worked there one summer vacation about 30 years ago (as a typist I should add, I´m not a nuclear physicist!)
JET | EFDA JET They said then that they were 50 years from a solution, now it is estimated at 25 years. But it doesnt seem to be getting the investment it deserves - probably because of the powerful oil and nuclear fission industry lobbies.


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## Muddy (Jan 14, 2010)

VidaTombola said:


> to me it seems very backwards to go out and ask who might be interested in storing nuclear waste. If it is supposed to stored in holes, then a thorough study of which areas might be safe enough would be the starting point. As I understand from other countries very few areas are suitable. Also, I thought the whole idea was to keep the stuff sealed there for as long as possible, thousands of years, not to let it sift out in water or the sea??? Either the articles are written by people who does not know or the Spanish governement need some expertise help?
> 
> I guess most people already read about the solar project in Sahara that is said to produce 1/4 of Europe's need in 2050. (Can not give links because I am new).


Yeah there seems to be some inconsistency in what's being reported. you would think they would have done a study first to see if they had anywhere suitable to store waste!

What a great place to put solar panels, on the sand, minimal impact I would have thought. Then import the power. Mind you I like the idea of home grown power and you should never rely on 1 or 2 suppliers. Just remember what happened with gas supplies to the Europe from Ukraine not so long ago!


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## Muddy (Jan 14, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> Irish? This was (and still is) a joint European project. I worked there one summer vacation about 30 years ago (as a typist I should add, I´m not a nuclear physicist!)
> JET | EFDA JET They said then that they were 50 years from a solution, now it is estimated at 25 years. But it doesnt seem to be getting the investment it deserves - probably because of the powerful oil and nuclear fission industry lobbies.


Remember a film about creating clean power, had Keanu Reeves in it.
Who knows how many times films play out reality, but who in power be that politicians or big business wants cheap energy!
Well the one I remember seeing some years back was an Irish company, they had to have their finding validated but I don't remember hearing anything after that and can't find any info on that with a quick search.
That's very interesting to hear that we might be just 25 years away from a solution! 
Lets hope someone will post the details on the Net when they do manage to crack it, so it can't be kept a big secret


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Spain's Solar Market Crash Offers a Cautionary Tale About Feed-In Tariffs - NYTimes.com
Here's how it went from boom to nearly bust. In the Uk they pay around 41p per kw/hr. for domestic installations.


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## Muddy (Jan 14, 2010)

gus-lopez said:


> Spain's Solar Market Crash Offers a Cautionary Tale About Feed-In Tariffs - NYTimes.com
> Here's how it went from boom to nearly bust. In the Uk they pay around 41p per kw/hr. for domestic installations.


Yeah it would seem just a bit of a gold rush at the start really didn't help. Saying that at least it seems to have reduced the cost of the tech so overall making it a more reasonable investment to make for the individual!
This looks a bit out of date but shows some info on incentives per kWh by country.
Financial incentives for photovoltaics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dropping back on my original point I found this post back in 2006 stating Spain would be phasing out the 8 nuclear reactors. I can't find dates for this!
Spain says "Adios" to nuclear power | Greenpeace International
And also a note on that page stating


> For the same investment, wind generates 5 times the jobs and 2.3 times the power as a nuclear reactor.


Would be good to see some stats to back that up and also see how solar does in comparison!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

gus-lopez said:


> Spain's Solar Market Crash Offers a Cautionary Tale About Feed-In Tariffs - NYTimes.com
> Here's how it went from boom to nearly bust. In the Uk they pay around 41p per kw/hr. for domestic installations.


Very interesting. And it just goes to show that energy provision is too important to be left to the market.

If the EU could put its weight behind a comprehensive and coordinated renewable energy policy across the whole area, we might get somewhere.


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## Muddy (Jan 14, 2010)

Just found this as I was searching for info on Cabo de Gata.
"RADIOACTIVE traces have been found in tap water in 19 Almerían villages"
Nuclear water | Olive Press Newspaper | News Spain
It's amazing how many incidents like this there have been around the world. I think it underlines just how dangerious anything nuclear can be.
Of course this could (perhaps) be naturally occurring but where is the info.
Anyone know anything more about this and could it be linked to this..
Greenpeace - Making Waves: Radioactivity found in Spain, during Greenpeace training

There was also a B-52 bomber that crashed in 1966, Palomares, Spain. Cleaned up apparently but annoying to see this type of history.


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## Guest (Dec 7, 2010)

I doubt it has anything to do with the plane crash, neither natural phenomenas. My guess is that parts of the drinking water supply basins etc are built with blue concrete, AAC in English, from older days which in themselves emits radiation, the gas radon.

The article only mentions "alpha radiation". I don't know if this includes radon gas, but I think it does.

The important though is to know if the area, the rock beneath is stable to store nuclear waste. The radiaton problem with the water they will fix quickly I am sure.

Also, Cabo de Gata is a natural park, no? I guess any plans to drill holes nearby have to consider this.

Off topic I can not refrain from mentioning that AAC was invented in the mid-20s by a guy from my village, Axel Eriksson. The village have never had more than 100 inhabitants! He invented some good stuff too...


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

VidaTombola said:


> I doubt it has anything to do with the plane crash, neither natural phenomenas. My guess is that parts of the drinking water supply basins etc are built with blue concrete, AAC in English, from older days which in themselves emits radiation, the gas radon.


Now, where else would I have learnt about blue concrete. 
And to think,some people think this forum is boring!
Thanks Vida Tombola


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## Muddy (Jan 14, 2010)

VidaTombola said:


> I doubt it has anything to do with the plane crash, neither natural phenomenas. My guess is that parts of the drinking water supply basins etc are built with blue concrete, AAC in English, from older days which in themselves emits radiation, the gas radon.
> 
> The article only mentions "alpha radiation". I don't know if this includes radon gas, but I think it does.
> 
> ...


That's interesting and probably good news if this is AAC. (I've never heard of it either)
19 villages did sound like a big number so hopefully all this is then is a bit of background radiation and nothing more 
Details here about AAC and the inventor Axel Eriksson.
Autoclaved aerated concrete - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It also does mention radon gas, but this other article I think might verify you thinking Radon is in AAC blue concreate ScienceDirect - The Science of The Total Environment : Results of a simple intercomparison of natural radioactivity measurements using a ‘blue concrete’ sample

Also in the wiki link under history it says


> However, the slate deposits used for Ytong also contains uranium, which makes the material give off small amounts of radioactive radon gas





> Ytong produced after 1975 has used other raw materials, without the uranium content.


So this is helpful to know as anything built after 1975 using this material should have been the new type without uranium!

It does seem a real shame if they end up drilling hear and worse if they use it as a nuclear dump site. Hopefully if there's enough awareness and interest in this then it can be stopped before it gets off the ground.
Nice link with image here showing a lot of detail.
Cabo de Gata Natural Park. Almeria. Spain


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