# Prix fixe



## gino

I recently watched _Raise the Red Lantern_, (大紅燈籠高高掛), starring Li Gong, perhaps better known to Western audiences for her role as Hatsumono in _Memoirs of a Geisha_. The story is about the newest of four mistresses maintained by a wealthy Chinese merchant in a palatial compound during the 1920s. Each mistress has a separate apartment and his chosen companion for the evening receives special treatment, including a ritual in which red lanterns are hung around the entrance to and inside her apartment. 

The four mistresses would dress to impress and present themselves in the courtyard where the master would make a decision which he communicated somehow to his major domo, who would shout out, “Raise the red lanterns over apartment four,” or whatever, at which point the chosen mistress would receive a foot massage and the others would go to their quarters to sulk. 

The heart of the story concerns the relationships between the four mistresses, who constantly plot and connive and squabble to establish a pecking order. Everything takes on exaggerated significance. Age and beauty. Who has the red lantern and the privileges it bestows Who was first to give birth and whether the child was male or female. Intellectually and rationally, they all realize they are disposable mistresses, but this is an accepted fact of life. Given their circumstances, the concern becomes how to make the best of it. 

I’ve maintained contact with a couple of girls I met in Asia. One thing I’ve noticed is that little things often have the greatest important to them. A girl I spent time with on three separate trips can catalogue every little present I’ve ever given her from memory. It’s not simply the gift, but the circumstances surrounding it. She remembers odd details, such as the day of the week, the name of the shop, what we ate that day. Buying matching T-shirts for her and her best friend was a significant event that she remembers vividly. If we went to dinner, she remembers what each of us ate. If we were accompanied by my buddy and his girlfriend, she remembers what they ate as well. 

I don’t think it’s simply a matter of possessing a prodigious memory. Like many of the girls I met, she lives very modestly. While she meets a lot of tourists, she doesn’t go out much. She insists nobody has taken her out dancing since we last went out together. 

Unfortunately, she also remembers minor slights with equal acuity. Vague promises tend to be stripped of conditional clauses and modals, then carved into granite in the unequivocal terms she prefers. 

It occurs to me that bar girls work in an egalitarian, _prix fixe _environment where Hollywood movie stars and retired pensioners begin on equal footing. Minor considerations can turn an ordinary evening into a night to remember.


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## Mr. Soap

Wow … sounds like a depressing movie with no happy ending. I haven’t seen the movie but I’m sure after watching Raise the Red Lantern, I would start counting my blessings. I heard that you don’t see the husband’s face clearly at all in the movie. I guess the girls were not supposed to look him straight in the eyes. (Sigh)
The Memoirs of a Geisha at least has an uplifting ending and I like the girl, Zhang Ziyi. She’s also outstanding in The House of Flying Daggers and Crouching Tiger and Hidden Dragon. The last two leave the audience with hunger for sequels, that never show up. 
We girls in this part of the world have come a long way.

You are right, little things mean a lot to Asian girls (general regular Asian girls). I love every little things my husband gave me, do for me (breakfast in bed on my BD), made for me such as Valentine’s cards (even after a few attempts still misprinted, you know those folding cards). I still keep the finished Sudoku book, bathroom edition, because he wrote in it comments and cute pictures, criticizing/praising some of my solutions. I did the same to his.

I laughed when I read this “Unfortunately, she also remembers minor slights with equal acuity. Vague promises tend to be stripped of conditional clauses and modals, then carved into granite in the unequivocal terms she prefers.” Guilty! (to some degree) But I do that for fun with my husband. Harassing him from time to time keeps the marriage life spicy. Your girls may do the same thing. I'm sure,they remember all the details. They may not expect anything but like to see your face denying such promises or trying to get out of the cooked version of promises.

Mrs. S


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## gino

*Female Action Stars*

Ziyi Zhang is amazing. She trained as a ballerina, but adapted ballet moves for her fight scenes in _House of Flying Daggers _(十面埋伏). I’ve made two acquisitions for my DVD library which I consider extravagant. One was an original copy of _A Boy and his Dog_, still wrapped in cellophane and bearing the original $11.95 price tag, which a small fraction of what I paid before they started bootlegging it indiscriminately. The second is _Operetta tanuki goten_ (オペレッタ狸御殿), starring Ziyi Zhang in a highly stylized Japanese art film. She learned to sing Japanese phonetically for her role. I have trouble getting Thai-American girls to pronounce Thai correctly for self-study DVDs. 

I’m not sure if I am more desperately in love with Ziyi Zhang, Qi Shu or Li Man, who had a small role in _Curse of the Golden Flower _(滿城盡帶黃金甲). But I think I shall adopt the Asian style of using family names first when referring to her, as Man Li sounds odd in English, particularly in reference to this girl. 

I am really amazed by the Twins, Charlene Choi and Gillian Chung. They were a popular teeny bopper duet who did some fairly impressive action scenes in two Twins Effect movies. Even former Hong Kong Playboy model Qi Shu did some impressive stunt work in _So Close _(夕陽天使). Hollywood can’t match them. What do we get? Jennifer Gardner in _Electra_ and an overly cherubic Drew Barrymore in _Charlie’s Angels_. Clumsily-executed fight choreography pieced together with a lot of quick cuts. 

We never see the husband in close-up or for any duration. Often we don’t even see him in the scene. The movie is depressing. As a Western viewer, I found it a little too detached and symbolic to resonate emotionally. 

I don’t make a sharp distinction between bar girls and “general regular Asian girls.” I spent three weeks in Thailand with one girl, so didn’t meet many other girls, regular or otherwise, so cannot comment on Thai bar girls specifically.

Some of the bar girls I met in the Philippines were cherry girls. They were clinically virgins, had I.D. cards with a “V” and were required to get STD screens less frequently. I also met girls who didn’t (at least at the moment) work in the bars who seemed readily available, although I avoided finding out for certain. So I’ve met bar girls who were pure and regular girls who were tramps. 

I trust the spice comes after the harassment. I can’t speak for Asian dudes, but Western guys don’t find aggro sexy. A little spunk and attitude can be amusing and challenging, but not if it becomes aggravating.


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## Guest

What struck me when reading Mr Soap's wife's reply above, is that without a shadow of a doubt - despite anonymity, and as a result the ability of anyone to assume different identities when contributing to a forum - it was written by a Thai lady. No one could forge the sheer 'Thai-ness' of those words, and those of other contributions 'Mrs Soap' has made to the forum!

I mean that in no derogatory sense whatsoever - on the contrary. It is this Thai-ness, a culturally-derived version of femininity, that attracts some of us Western men to a qualitatively different form of relationship than is possible with (apologies for the stereotype) Western women.

The prodigious memory that ginocox refers to is something that has struck me throughout my stay in Thailand, and since, with my wife, back here in France. An attention to detail, with those details having a significance beyond the one we afford them.

Once again resorting to stereotypes, I have found Thai women to be both more tactile, and fiercely concentrating on the here and now, while we Westerners spend much time dreaming of the future and musing over the past. Although Thailand is a developing nation and wealth is increasing, there is still considerable poverty and no state safety net to speak of. Survival, and having one's wits about one, is a practical, daily imperative.

This type of alertness differs hugely from the one I observe in my teenage and early twenties Anglo-French children. They have acute global political and social insights, lack the naivety of the 'average Thai equivalent' (_really _sorry for the stereotypes again), and have benefited from such a comfortable upbringing in materialistic terms that daily physical details simply don't take on the same significance.


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## gino

*Traditions*

Both the present and the past have a tactile quality that we often do not project into our musings of the future. When we remember past events, we may remember the sense of the sunlight against our skin or sand between our toes. If we concentrate, particularly on recent events, we may recall sensations that we had forgotten. Or perhaps we simply fill in the details with general memories to create a more vivid sense of past events. 

In the present, we are surrounded by sensations which we may choose to ignore, such as the sound of traffic outside the window or the temperature, but which become apparent if there is a sudden change. 

When we think of the future, we might imagine being reunited with a loved one on a bright sunny day. But we also realize from past experiences that flights sometimes arrive at night and we’ve met that person at many times of the day and night, so we may not invest a lot of energy in filling in the details. Those who do will quickly become boorish to anybody to whom they try to describe their expectations. 

I agree with FrogBlogger regarding this emphasis on the tactile as opposed to the abstract; however, I’m not sure it’s confined to the present. 

The common cultural heritage that many Thai women share is not only distinct from Western women, but also from other Southeast Asian women. The girl I described with the prodigious memory is actually Filipina, although her attention to detail is a quality also observed in Thai girls. To me, she looks more Chinese than Philippine. Two Thais have commented that she looks Thai to them. But in terms of culture and attitudes, one would never mistake her for a Thai. 

I’ve studied Thai in the States at two different Buddhist temples and at a Thai cultural center. I’ve always been impressed with the time and attention that many Thais invest in instilling traditional cultural values in their children, particularly the girls. Many Thai girls, particularly from more affluent families, spend hours a week studying music, dance and language. The instruction often begins as soon as the girls can walk. By three or four, some of these girls are already skilful dancers.


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## bandit 18

my thai wife has a selective memory where she only recalls things that are to her advantage but she remembers all the things that we would think of as being unecessary,bless her tiny little cotton sox,one thing i find quite strange though is how she can carry on a conversation with one of her sisters when they are in different parts of the house and only speaking in a normal tone of voice not a raised voice yet i can be in the same room as her and speak to her but she will not hear me .maybe her hearing is tuned to thai tones???


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## gino

*But …*



bandit 18 said:


> my thai wife has a selective memory where she only recalls things that are to her advantage but she remembers all the things that we would think of as being unecessary,bless her tiny little cotton sox,one thing i find quite strange though is how she can carry on a conversation with one of her sisters when they are in different parts of the house and only speaking in a normal tone of voice not a raised voice yet i can be in the same room as her and speak to her but she will not hear me .maybe her hearing is tuned to thai tones???


… if you speak softly in Thai while she’s in the other room, does she reply? 

It sounds like a situation that’s ripe for experimentation. You could vocalize various statements, questions and commands at various audio levels, in various languages, possibly impersonating various celebrities and cartoon characters, randomly alternating between things she’s likely to want to hear and things she might prefer to ignore. 

Of course, if you don’t speak any Thai, you can’t be sure what’s been said. She might be saying something like, “I can’t understand why you continue talking to me after I’ve left the room. I’ve told you a thousand times. Not only is it rude, but I can’t understand a thing you’re saying.” Or maybe, “Let’s really mess with my husband’s mind. We’ll pretend to have a conversation through the walls in hushed tones, but when he says something, I’ll pretend I don’t hear a thing he’s saying.”


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## bandit 18

maybe she also has selective hearing though i noticed this when we first met it can get annoying if i think she is ignoring me but she swears that she just does not hear me and i speak louder than her sisters naturaly


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## gino

*Maybe it has nothing to do with her.*

Maybe you’ve gone selectively mute. Subconsciously, you don’t want to communicate with her or you fear she won’t understand you, so you muffle your words, but convince yourself you’re projecting your voice. 

Just kidding. 

But I do think communication is more than the transmission and reception of vocalized dialogue. Eye contact and body language play a part, as do tone, register, pitch, volume, cadence, inflection and all the rest. But then, I’m Italian. Tie my hands behind my back and I can’t say a damned thing.


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## Mr. Soap

*Time*



bandit 18 said:


> maybe she also has selective hearing though i noticed this when we first met it can get annoying if i think she is ignoring me but she swears that she just does not hear me and i speak louder than her sisters naturaly


Khun Bandit 18

If you two are still a newlywed couple and her English is not very good, the seem-like-ignoring manner or not hearing what is being said to her sometimes happens.
It happened to me during the first few years of my marriage too, especially at parties or certain gatherings. I remember those days when I tried to arrange English words, proper forms of verbs and prepositions plus the r/l and “s” etc. into a sentence so I could converse correctly and quite often I would not hear anything else. English language is tough. I’m a lot better but still make mistakes and will never be perfect like a native.
When I speak to my Thai family,mainly my mom, it occasionally seems like I ignore my husband but in fact I could not stop in the middle of the conversation. 
If I were deep in thought ignoring him, my husband will say “Hello, earth is calling you, over”.
I gave him a cheapish smile and said sorry my Pentium chip was not functioning right that day. I am better tuned to him now. It takes a lot of patience from the husband. Please give your wife time.
Mrs. Soap


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## bandit 18

actualy my wife speaks very good englishand understands me very well ,when she hears me


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## Mr. Soap

*It can happen.*



bandit 18 said:


> actualy my wife speaks very good englishand understands me very well ,when she hears me


Don't get me wrong. It can happen. I have an M.B.A. from De La Salle University and still face language barrier from time to time. I'm just guessing from my own experience. I understand English very well but expressing it articulately is another matter. If her English is very good but she does not hear you, that opens up to some negative interpretations. (One bad ear, being angry or being bored which I don't believe are the case.)
Mrs. Soap


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## Guest

Very true Mrs. Soap. I am a professional translator and interpreter, but only those who are brought up to be truly bilingual can claim almost perfect comprehension. Even then, there is often a bias towards one culture over the other (more formative years spent in one, more time spent with and influenced by one parent).

When you learn a language academically as opposed to being immersed in the culture from a very early age, no matter how 'perfect' you get, you are always more comfortable in your mother tongue. Cultural subtleties in the foreign language can still be missed (especially where the cultural gap is so great, such as between East and West). 

Unless you get to be pretty fluent in a second language, these issues are difficult to grasp. And understanding your partner is not only about comprehending the written and spoken word. You could argue that there are considerably more important factors in getting on with a partner from a very different culture than verbal comprehension. Although in a global community our priorities and motivations are beginning to merge, in the East quite different family values hold sway. Until one truly understands these and other 'mysterious' aspects of life in Thailand, it doesn't matter how fluent one gets in Thai - there will always be misunderstandings that arise.


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## bandit 18

she does not have physical hearing problems and as far as i am aware she is not bored she often says what a great life she now has ,as for being angry with me i can tell you that she lets me know if she is angry ,all men will understand that, i think that it is my normal tone of voice that somehow does not register with her or the fact that she gets deeply immersed in what she is doing at that moment to the exclusion of everything else. still struggling with learning thai and probably will be until i snuff it..p.s off to play golf tomorrow maybe the same course that overcharged me ,just to see if i can get the price down using your previous suggestions-information.i am not trying to be confrontational and if it does not work we can always go to the next course which is only minutes away


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## gino

*Speech is not communication*

I assume this lack of response does not occur in the middle of a conversation, that it only happens when you say something “out of the blue” while she’s doing something else and not waiting for you to reply to some question or comment she’s already made. You’re just doing whatever it is you ordinarily do: building a ship in a bottle, practicing your putt, trading futures options over the Internet, or whatever; and she’s doing something entirely unrelated: playing with the baby, cooking dinner, reading the newspaper, or whatever; and you blurt out something in a normal voice unrelated to whatever she’s doing, “Did you buy milk?” but nothing happens. 

What do you expect? You’re not doing anything to first catch her attention, such as tapping her on the shoulder, calling out her name or “hey,” waving, ringing a bell, establishing eye contact, clapping your hands or calling out “Earth to Mrs. Bandit Eighteen” on a megaphone. This is not to suggest all of these are appropriate ways of getting attention under the circumstances, but to illustrate that we have a full vocabulary of verbal and non-verbal techniques for getting the attention of other people. 

These techniques, and many others, exist because if we simply speak to others in a normal tone without first getting their attention, they don’t always respond. It doesn’t matter if it’s Mrs. Bandit Eighteen, a store clerk, a government official or some guy in the middle of a boxing ring getting the living daylights beat out of him by his opponent – odds are they have something else occupying their attention at the moment.

You can’t simply start talking and expect others to hear, understand and respond. This is not communication. 

If you want Mrs. BE to hang on your every word, hire a maid for the day and send her to a spa for a day of pampering, but don’t offer any explanation and don’t answer any questions. For the next couple of days, she will study your every word, gesture and nuance, trying figure out what you’re motives were. After a few days she’ll just want another day at the spa, but for a while you will enjoy her complete attention.


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## bandit 18

i like the suggestion of the maid


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## bandit 18

bandit 18 said:


> i like the suggestion of the maid


only joking ,sure it would get her attention but the agro would make it unbearable ,pretty sure she would be


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## gino

*E.E., I presume?*

I am not at all certain I am correctly deciphering your somewhat cummings-esque narrative.

Are you saying you feel that treating your wife to a day of pampering would somehow anger her?

Or are you saying it would cause her to expect pampering in the future which would somehow aggravate you?


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## bandit 18

as you suggested earlier she would read an ulterior motive into hireing a maid,thats what i was refering to ,sorry my reply took so long just got back from a couple of weeks away ,pampering the wife


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## Acid_Crow

bandit 18 said:


> as you suggested earlier she would read an ulterior motive into hireing a maid,thats what i was refering to ,sorry my reply took so long just got back from a couple of weeks away ,pampering the wife


Same here. I could never hire a maid, could we afford one. It would look as if my wife wasn't taking care of the house good enough. She would be shy to her friends and family, and angry with me. 

Sending her to a spa for a day? Only if I join her. She is the jelous type. Maybe if I spend the day with my mother-in-law, or some other familymember to spy on me. And also, she would probably think, why am I sending her to a spa? Does she need beauty treatment? Does she look old? Etc. I would never hear the end of it.


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## Acid_Crow

bandit 18 said:


> one thing i find quite strange though is how she can carry on a conversation with one of her sisters when they are in different parts of the house and only speaking in a normal tone of voice not a raised voice yet i can be in the same room as her and speak to her but she will not hear me .maybe her hearing is tuned to thai tones???



My wife does the same. Although her normal tone of voice is much higher than mine and that of what I'm used to in the west. She might be doing the dishes and talk to her sister or some other familymember and tune everything else out. When I poke her on the shoulder to get her attention she jumps and curse me for sneaking up on her, even though I've been standing next to her for a while.


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## gino

*Who ever said spas were healthy?*

I have to admit my one experience with a Thai-American girl and a beauty spa turned out a bit weird. I was looking for romance. She seemed more interested in elevating to new heights the art of broadcasting mixed signals. She suggested we attend a spa together. I interpreted it as an indirect approach to suggesting greater intimacy. Had the suggestion been made by one of the girls of other cultures I’ve dated, it would have been safe to interpret it as a suggestion for an exotic location for a seduction, but this was not her intent. When we got there, she insisted we should have our massages in different rooms for reasons of modesty. I’m not much of a fan of massage. I only like people whom I like touching me. Also the masseuse assigned to me was kind of scary with the largest, roughest hands I’ve ever seen on a ****tive woman. So I cancelled my massage and headed for the Jacuzzi. Shortly afterwards, the Thai girl stormed in and started chewing me out, suggesting I had ulterior motives. All the time, her robe was gaping open, exposing her breast. It was definitely one of my weirder evenings. As I said, she was particularly adept at sending mixed signals. 

But I wonder if there might also be a generational difference here. The attitudes you describe seem more representative of the Thai mothers I’ve met at the Temple and the Thai Cultural Center than of the college-age girls I’ve known.


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## bandit 18

Acid_Crow said:


> Same here. I could never hire a maid, could we afford one. It would look as if my wife wasn't taking care of the house good enough. She would be shy to her friends and family, and angry with me.
> 
> Sending her to a spa for a day? Only if I join her. She is the jelous type. Maybe if I spend the day with my mother-in-law, or some other familymember to spy on me. And also, she would probably think, why am I sending her to a spa? Does she need beauty treatment? Does she look old? Etc. I would never hear the end of it.


a c your words are exactly what i was trying to say


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## Acid_Crow

ginocox said:


> I have to admit my one experience with a Thai-American girl and a beauty spa turned out a bit weird. I was looking for romance. She seemed more interested in elevating to new heights the art of broadcasting mixed signals. She suggested we attend a spa together. I interpreted it as an indirect approach to suggesting greater intimacy. Had the suggestion been made by one of the girls of other cultures I’ve dated, it would have been safe to interpret it as a suggestion for an exotic location for a seduction, but this was not her intent. When we got there, she insisted we should have our massages in different rooms for reasons of modesty. I’m not much of a fan of massage. I only like people whom I like touching me. Also the masseuse assigned to me was kind of scary with the largest, roughest hands I’ve ever seen on a ****tive woman. So I cancelled my massage and headed for the Jacuzzi. Shortly afterwards, the Thai girl stormed in and started chewing me out, suggesting I had ulterior motives. All the time, her robe was gaping open, exposing her breast. It was definitely one of my weirder evenings. As I said, she was particularly adept at sending mixed signals.
> 
> But I wonder if there might also be a generational difference here. The attitudes you describe seem more representative of the Thai mothers I’ve met at the Temple and the Thai Cultural Center than of the college-age girls I’ve known.


I think that the spa scene in reality was her trying to seduce you. When she found out you rejected the massage, it was like rejecting her, in a sence. Or rejecting what she was trying to do for you. Maybe the separate rooms was a way of showing you that she was a traditional girl, a 'good girl'? And when she found out you didn't want the massage, maybe it was you giving her mixed signals? So she storms out to the jacuzzi, showing her naked body to you, which in her mind is a clear signal that she wants you, but she yells at you as to not lose more face.
And you sitting there, not understanding this crazy woman, confusion written all over you, she would read as if your not interested in her 'that way'..

Just my thoughts, I don't have any experiance in dating thai women, except for the one I married


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## Acid_Crow

ginocox said:


> But I wonder if there might also be a generational difference here. The attitudes you describe seem more representative of the Thai mothers I’ve met at the Temple and the Thai Cultural Center than of the college-age girls I’ve known.


It might be, in a way. But I think it also has to do with education and western influences. In 'the old days' the woman would take care of the house, children and so on. She wouldn't expect the man to be home or atleast not be interested in her and her doings during daytime, instead she would pass her days talking to her female companions and gossiping all day. It would be natural to tune everything else out, as the mind is pretty preoccupied.


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## gino

*Saint George*

It seems more likely that I was supposed to go Saint George on the masseuse’s butt to win the lovely maiden. That masseuse was pretty scary. I was once dragged along to a club in the early hours of the morning to rescue a girl’s sister who was hiding in the restroom from an obnoxious customer. This guy was six-four, maybe two-forty, drunk, abusive, pugnacious, belligerent and meaner than a junkyard dog, but he wasn’t scary. That masseuse was mannered, polite and pleasant, but really scary.


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