# Return of documents from immigration process



## angkag (Oct 29, 2013)

Hi,

My wife is from Indonesia and I'm from the UK. We moved to Spain last August and applied for residence. We provided all of the required documents, the key one being our marriage certificate which had all of the required legalisation stamps from various Indonesian governments offices as well as the Spanish Embassy in Jakarta.

The application process was successful, however, the Spanish authorities are saying they will not return our original marriage certificate on the basis that its not valid after three months anyway.

Trouble is, we sometimes find we need our original certificate for various other things (visas, sometimes just travelling) and Spain is the only one we have encountered so far that has the "three months and its dead" rule. So now we don't have an original marriage certificate if ever we need it. As an aside, the Indonesians are saying they won't issue another unless we get a police report from Spain identifying why we no longer have the original, and it would just seem easier for all concerned if the Spanish just gave the original back.

Anyone else had this issue with return of documents ?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

are you sure that you have asked for return of the correct certificate? The three months' life normally applies to the @certificate of empadronimiento' (says you are on the Padron for the place where you live whereas your original marriage certificate is a lifetime thing. In any case you should have shown the original and handed over a copy, however you are entitled to have the original returned to you.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> are you sure that you have asked for return of the correct certificate? The three months' life normally applies to the @certificate of empadronimiento' (says you are on the Padron for the place where you live whereas your original marriage certificate is a lifetime thing. In any case you should have shown the original and handed over a copy, however you are entitled to have the original returned to you.


as far as Spain is concerned, nothing official, paperwork-wise, lasts more than 3 months

if you need to show a copy of your spanish birth or marriage cert it has to be less than 3 months old - so although for the OP, the marriage cert is valuable, a Spanish funcionario would consider it to be out & of date & therefore worthless


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## angkag (Oct 29, 2013)

baldilocks said:


> are you sure that you have asked for return of the correct certificate? The three months' life normally applies to the @certificate of empadronimiento' (says you are on the Padron for the place where you live whereas your original marriage certificate is a lifetime thing. In any case you should have shown the original and handed over a copy, however you are entitled to have the original returned to you.


The original marriage cert had to get various legalisation stamps from government ministries in Jakarta, and it is these that expire after three months. The legalisation stamps were on the back of the certificate, so they took the original and wouldn't accept copies.

But they continue to state the marriage cert expires after three months as the reason for not sending it back.

I've got a feeling they've just lost it !


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## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

angkag said:


> The original marriage cert had to get various legalisation stamps from government ministries in Jakarta, and it is these that expire after three months. The legalisation stamps were on the back of the certificate, so they took the original and wouldn't accept copies.
> 
> But they continue to state the marriage cert expires after three months as the reason for not sending it back.
> 
> I've got a feeling they've just lost it !


You can make an official application to have them returned to you. Ask to make "una instancia para reclamar la documentación aportada", they have to process it and give you a stamped copy with a reference number so you can enquire about it.


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## angkag (Oct 29, 2013)

Thanks, will do just that and post and update once I hear more.


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## angkag (Oct 29, 2013)

angkag said:


> Thanks, will do just that and post and update once I hear more.


Ok, here's the update. I've posted the (Spanish) response below (bit of a mouthful unfortunately, but google translate can provide) which effectively states that they need to keep the original marriage certificate on file, which was required as part of the application process. As part of the application process they only accept copies of documents that they can't keep such as passports etc. 

What they can do is provide a document stating where it is, but they won't give it back.

_Buenos días
En relación con la exigencia de que permanezcan los documentos originales en el expediente administrativo instruido a instancia de su cliente para la concesión de una Autorización de Residencia de Familiar de Ciudadano de la Unión a su esposa, se le informa que se deduce de la propia esencia del procedimiento.
La autorización de residencia concedida se basa sustancialmente en el citado documento que prueba el vínculo jurídico de la ciudadana extranjera a la que se le concede una autorización de residencia en España con un ciudadano de la Unión Europea. Se trata por tanto de un documento esencial y la propia validez de la autorización concedida dependerá siempre de que dicho documento sea válido y las pericias policiales sobre documentos sólo se pueden realizar sobre originales. Es por ello que los documentos originales esenciales de un procedimiento en materia de extranjería deban permanecer en su expediente administrativo.
La prueba de que tal postura es correcta se contiene implícitamente en su propia petición, al requerir el original de dicho documento, lo que demuestra que el organismo para el que precisa dicho documento, lo exige. Si ello no fuera así, esta Oficina de Extranjería de Cádiz estaría dispuesta sin problema alguno a certificar la existencia en nuestros archivos de dicho documento.
En cuanto a la supuesta contradicción que se contiene en la información oficial del Ministerio de Empleo y Seguridad Social, no es tal, ya que se dice claramente que la aportación de copias es “con carácter general”, no que se deban aportar copias “siempre”. Efectivamente la Administración no puede quedarse con un pasaporte original, un contrato de trabajo original, una matricula oficial, etc. por lo que en estos casos sí basta una copia con exhibición del original.
Lamentamos sinceramente las molestias que puede causar a su cliente el hecho de que deba conseguir otro documento igual al conseguido para que su esposa obtenga la residencia en España, pero dichas molestias derivan necesariamente del procedimiento administrativo iniciado a su instancia.
Un saludo.
_


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## angkag (Oct 29, 2013)

One more thing - they are effectively saying in the requirement below (requirement C) that as the original marriage cert. is used in the procedure, they don't have to return them.

So looks like we are left without a marriage certificate....

-Article 35. Rights of citizens.<br>Citizens, in their relations with public administrations, have the following rightsA) to know, at any time, the status of processing of the procedures that have the status of interested parties, and to obtain copies of documents contained in them.(B) to identify the authorities and the staff of public administrations dealing with procedures under whose responsibility).(C) a sealed copy of the documents submitted, bringing it together with the originals, as well as the return of these, except when the originals should act in the procedure.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

angkag said:


> One more thing - they are effectively saying in the requirement below (requirement C) that as the original marriage cert. is used in the procedure, they don't have to return them.
> 
> So looks like we are left without a marriage certificate....
> 
> -Article 35. Rights of citizens.<br>Citizens, in their relations with public administrations, have the following rightsA) to know, at any time, the status of processing of the procedures that have the status of interested parties, and to obtain copies of documents contained in them.(B) to identify the authorities and the staff of public administrations dealing with procedures under whose responsibility).(C) a sealed copy of the documents submitted, bringing it together with the originals, as well as the return of these, except when the originals should act in the procedure.



But surely, like with birth certificates, you should always get a few originals for later use.

Did you not do that?


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## angkag (Oct 29, 2013)

snikpoh said:


> But surely, like with birth certificates, you should always get a few originals for later use.
> 
> Did you not do that?


To issue a copy of the marriage cert in Indonesia my wife says you have to provide a reason why you no longer have the original (eg if lost, a police certificate stating it has been reported as lost). So it doesn't work the same way as UK birth certs where you can order as many originals as you like - you just get the one. (indeed we have multiple copies of all the UK birth certs just in case somethoing like this happens)


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Yeah it is a concept that was new to me too, a birth or marriage certificate in Oz is generally regarded as a one off thing. You can of course get copies of them at cost but then again nobody really has to apply for a dozen copies and certainly nobody would ever keep an original and never give it back.


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## ddrysdale99 (Apr 3, 2014)

It really should be enough to see the original and return it - taking a copy if it's needed.

If you think Spain has bureaucratic procedures, try dealing with Romania. Everything has to be done in person and the concept of a citizen who doesn't live in Romania just doesn't fit.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

ddrysdale99 said:


> It really should be enough to see the original and return it - taking a copy if it's needed.
> 
> If you think Spain has bureaucratic procedures, try dealing with Romania. Everything has to be done in person and the concept of a citizen who doesn't live in Romania just doesn't fit.




What ...? 

They all seem to be living in Spain


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## ddrysdale99 (Apr 3, 2014)

snikpoh said:


> What ...?
> 
> They all seem to be living in Spain


I know - I was just saying that Romania is much worse than Spain at dealing with administrative matters.


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