# Immigration to Israel



## IC1985 (Sep 21, 2012)

Hi all,

I was wondering whether anyone had any experience obtaining work visas to Israel?

If so, what is the process and requirements?

I am currently converting to Judaism so I suspect my easiest option would be to wait until that is complete and come to Israel under the Law of Return - but I was wondering whether there were other options available to me.


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## hubbly_bubbly (Oct 17, 2010)

IC1985 said:


> I am currently converting to Judaism so I suspect my easiest option would be to wait until that is complete and come to Israel under the Law of Return...


*sighs deeply*


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## IC1985 (Sep 21, 2012)

hubbly_bubbly said:


> *sighs deeply*


Thanks for your valuable input!


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## hubbly_bubbly (Oct 17, 2010)

What? i'm a fully-fledged secularist. 

Why pointedly add your religious belief to a question of a work visa to a country that will accept you permanently once you have made your "conversion"?


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## hubbly_bubbly (Oct 17, 2010)

And.. you're welcome.


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## IC1985 (Sep 21, 2012)

hubbly_bubbly said:


> What? i'm a fully-fledged secularist.
> 
> Why pointedly add your religious belief to a question of a work visa to a country that will accept you permanently once you have made your "conversion"?


That's good that you're a secularist. Thanks for sharing. 

...Because conversions can take multiple years. So my message was about whether it is easier to wait that period, or try for an alternative approach in the meantime. 

I presume you don't have knowledge on the subject of immigration to this country so, perhaps, you should take your judgmental attitude elsewhere. These are forums for people who can provide meaningful immigration advice.


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## hubbly_bubbly (Oct 17, 2010)

Me? Judgemental?

That is funny. 

Anyway, I shared because you shared. Fair? Fair.

LSA Law - Israel Visas Primer

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/About+the+Ministry/Consular_affairs/Visas.htm

And, with the _unintentional_ risk of sounding condescending, which I'll take, get a secular education before you get religion. Your life will be so much more rewarding without it.

That's free advice.


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## IC1985 (Sep 21, 2012)

hubbly_bubbly said:


> Me? Judgemental?
> 
> That is funny.
> 
> ...


I'm a lecturer in physics.


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## hubbly_bubbly (Oct 17, 2010)

Well, that's somewhat... contradictory, isn't it?

I mean, if or when you make _Aliyah_ and you're praying at the Wailing Wall, how does your impatiently awaited conversion work in the realm of the laws of physics - in say, from converting and transmitting atoms (or molecules even) from your brain, for a personal two-way conversation with the almighty? 

Just curious.


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## hubbly_bubbly (Oct 17, 2010)

And the more I think of it, with some research, how does the above stated actually work - at exactly the same time - with our segregated Muslim brothers and sisters directly above you, praying in the Al Aqsa mosque and the Dome of the Rock? And if we think of our devout Christian brothers and sisters up the road in the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, past the Israeli security details minding the illegal settlers, that's an astonishing amount of brain transmission, no?

Are there new Laws of Thermodynamic and Kinetic Theory in that we can "speak to (a) god"?

IC, instead of getting your visa, you could be world famous by explaining a proven scientific theory right here on EF. Damn. You could live... anywhere! They'll be lining up with more than work visas, you know. That's for sure. 



So, _yella, habibi_, how does it work? (Go on, just a little bit, in return for the basic visa links?)


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## IC1985 (Sep 21, 2012)

hubbly_bubbly said:


> Well, that's somewhat... contradictory, isn't it?
> 
> I mean, if or when you make _Aliyah_ and you're praying at the Wailing Wall, how does your impatiently awaited conversion work in the realm of the laws of physics - in say, from converting and transmitting atoms (or molecules even) from your brain, for a personal two-way conversation with the almighty?
> 
> Just curious.


I don't find it contradictory in the least. You must recall that the Jews, more than a religion, are a people. Within that community of people you'll find a host of different beliefs ranging from very narrow-minded ultra-orthodoxy to those who don't even believe in God. What is shared is the concept of wresting with the world around us to come to a deeper understanding of it physically, emotionally, spiritually. Conversion is not some magic act, it's a process of being accepted into community of people with a unique heritage, culture, and approach to thought.

I understand that many people would find it contradictory to see a physicist also be a person of faith. But let me just say this. I've had the opportunity to study the universe both via partial differential equations and physical experimentation at places like CERN and elsewhere. And I'm convinced that we live in a very special universe. Many in my field are content to simply study it, but in addition to that I also want to celebrate it. I want to think about what it means for our perception of self. 

You mustn't take a narrow and "easy" approach to religious thought. It's quite easy to reject the concept of a Zeus-like figure sitting on a throne in the sky someplace and - yes - I acknowledge that there are countless people in this world who hold that mentality. However, I quite like the point made by Maimonides (considered the cornerstone thinker of Judaism): that God has no form, no body, no shape, and cannot be readily expressed in images. That's a hard concept for some, but it's refreshing for me. To me, physics and theology go hand in hand.


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## hubbly_bubbly (Oct 17, 2010)

IC1985 said:


> To me, physics and theology go hand in hand.


*sighs deeply. again.*

Are you a creationist? Because that statement looks pretty contradictory to me. 

As you must recall during high school science class, a subject within science class - evolutionary biology. We are _*all*_ one "people" - regardless of race or creed. You do remember that, right? Hint: we, (that's you and me and the other 7 billion people on this planet and counting) are a species known as _**** sapiens_ and we've been here for a lot longer than 6000 years). What you claim is racial superiority which reeks of ignorance, I have to say. Or at very least, intellectual laziness.

Yes, the universe is a very special place, but in the words of Douglas Adams, "Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to _believe _that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"

The rest of your post is neither here or there and pretty much avoided my question.

And what is up with Maimonides' 13 principles of faith? I mean, you're a physics lecturer, right? Aren't your students supposed to have _evidence_ when making any grand claims? And yet this is the foundation of Judaism?


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## IC1985 (Sep 21, 2012)

hubbly_bubbly said:


> *sighs deeply. again.*
> 
> Are you a creationist? Because that statement looks pretty contradictory to me.
> 
> ...



My friend, this is not a forum for religious debate. If this is what you are looking for, the internet is ripe with avenues for you to debate until your heart is content and, indeed, dialogue on this is a good thing. If you'd like, I'd also be more than happy for you to contact me directly for a chat on the subject. And for the record, no, I am not a creationist and, no, I don't believe in fairies dancing somewhere in the universe - so, with all due respect, your I'd suggest that it is your perception and knowledge of religion which is weak, as opposed to others' belief in. Perhaps, as an ardent "secularist" you'd be well served to spend some time reading and - more importantly - meeting people of faith from across the religious spectrum. You may come to find yourself surprised by the beliefs you encounter. I haven't the time or motivation to entertain discussion with another close minded know-it-all, but if you'd like to have some real and open discussion please feel free to contact me. All good wishes.


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## hubbly_bubbly (Oct 17, 2010)

Okay, okay, so it's not a (anti-)religious blabbering forum. For the sake of the discussion, up until this point at least, think of it in terms of standing in line at the immigration help desk waiting for someone to show up. (Btw, did the 2 links I posted not help?)

Meanwhile, the annoying know-it-all secularist fool (that would be me) blowing hot air behind you is completely bemused at what could possibly motivate a physics lecturer to not only get religion, but to pack up and move half way around the world when it doesn't matter where in the world you are - considering the size of the entire universe - as, and still inexplicably, "god" is everywhere, no? Curiosity got the better of me, what can I say?

And then here we are.

But don't worry, I shan't be carrying on either here or privately. In fact in answer to you, I've seen and heard enough in my time; from a hip, new Kabbalah "fad" in Israel (not to mention anything Zionist) to the mentally deranged acts of Shia flagellation in Iraq, to the worship of demon gods in Mali, Africa, to the brutal punishment of Christian boys in Australia and to the mutilation of young girls in both Pakistan and Afghanistan, let alone countless other bizarre rituals and tragic war zones - _all in the name of celebrating God_.

No, if it's all the same to you, I'll pass on your offer. It only continues to justify the absurdity of the entire religious spectrum, including the above, thanks very much. 

On a lighter note...










No hard wishes done by.


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## IC1985 (Sep 21, 2012)

hubbly_bubbly said:


> Okay, okay, so it's not a (anti-)religious blabbering forum. For the sake of the discussion, up until this point at least, think of it in terms of standing in line at the immigration help desk waiting for someone to show up. (Btw, did the 2 links I posted not help?)
> 
> Meanwhile, the annoying know-it-all secularist fool (that would be me) blowing hot air behind you is completely bemused at what could possibly motivate a physics lecturer to not only get religion, but to pack up and move half way around the world when it doesn't matter where in the world you are - considering the size of the entire universe - as, and still inexplicably, "god" is everywhere, no? Curiosity got the better of me, what can I say?
> 
> ...


Well, if you change your mind and would like to discuss and hear my thoughts I'd be happy to share. I messaged you my email address. You might be surprised by my thoughts. (And, by the way, I'm no scientific hack either -- I earned my PhD at MIT and began my career at Harvard. I'm now on secondment in the UK with Oxford. I've been working in academic physics for over 40 years at some of the world's best universities and research centers). Or, perhaps, religion isn't your area of interest and you'd like to discuss physics! If not, no worries. I wish you well. All good wishes.


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## hubbly_bubbly (Oct 17, 2010)

So, professor, (Ph.D, right?), as we continue to wait patiently in this immigration help desk line, so to speak, I owe you an apology for the insolent tone in my first few posts - okay, so, yes, well, pretty much all of them - for as it turns out I am, indeed, waaaaaay out of my league professionally as well as academically, of course, and I shouldn't have been so presumptuous.

Please accept my sincere apologies. Perhaps I can get you a conciliatory cup of crappy coffee from the vending machine? it is a government building we are in after all. 

_*hides embarrassment behind the unfurling steam and scolds tongue on piping hot coffee and burns fingers on the melting plastic cup at the same time, causing yet further embarassment*_

And yet... if I may? I am still completely vexed by the rationale in converting, (the concept of it - nothing personal and not that you owe or should give me a single explanation whatsoever), to the point of distraction because it... well, seemingly... it is... um. What I am trying to say is that it is just not scientifically reasonable, logical or necessary, IMHO. And I still stand stand by my quip of intellectual laziness, which is brash, I know, and despite your esteemed qualifications. 

Meanwhile, I may just well chase you up on your email. (And I had also wanted to publicly apologise.)

_*"next!"*_


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## IC1985 (Sep 21, 2012)

hubbly_bubbly said:


> So, professor, (Ph.D, right?), as we continue to wait patiently in this immigration help desk line, so to speak, I owe you an apology for the insolent tone in my first few posts - okay, so, yes, well, pretty much all of them - for as it turns out I am, indeed, waaaaaay out of my league professionally as well as academically, of course, and I shouldn't have been so presumptuous.
> 
> Please accept my sincere apologies. Perhaps I can get you a conciliatory cup of crappy coffee from the vending machine? it is a government building we are in after all.
> 
> ...


As mentioned, I'm very happy to answer any questions you have via email. Believe me, I understand where you are coming from. The past 15 years has yielded a vast array of literature preaching a gospel of the intellectual superiority of science. Some has been written by esteemed colleagues of mine. Largely, this is in response to religious communities entrenching themselves and rejecting scientific truths in favor of theological literalism. And, of course, this is hard for any scientist to accept and they (myself included) will see this is destructive. Paradoxically, though, in doing this the scientific community has made themselves equally entrenched. They've evolved themselves from a mode of explaining the world and universe to expressing a monopoly on logic. And this, too, has had damaging consequences. The mentalities of my students and researchers today is vastly different (and not better) than those of my students and researchers 20-30 years ago. The fact is, just as no ideology has a monopoly on understanding the world, nor does any branch of research. The world, the universe, people - all are too complex for that.

Anyway, that will be my last comment in this forum. Please, by all means, email me and I will be more than happy to answer any of your questions, and would be eager to do so. All good wishes.


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## yamahaneo (Mar 23, 2013)

Hats off for handling this dialogue in a mature manner. Kudos. Best of luck on your visa too


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## IC1985 (Sep 21, 2012)

yamahaneo said:


> Hats off for handling this dialogue in a mature manner. Kudos. Best of luck on your visa too


Thank you, yamahaneo. I believe that there are a lot of misconceptions out there regarding the diversity of beliefs within the Jewish community. People have a tendency to think towards extremes, and that simply propagates those misconceptions. 

This is not a new controversy for me. Surprisingly, though, I find it coming more from students than from my peers in academia. There is a tendency amongst many young people to be fatalists, believing in an inflexible world of extremes. While there are many problems to this, the biggest is that is generates missed opportunities to see the beauty, meaning, and poetry in the margins.

I am a scientist and an academic, and have been for over forty years - I've worked at many of the world's greatest institutions with some of the world's greatest minds. And the one thing I can tell you is this: in today's world of complex and rapid change, we mustn't loose our sense of morality. Science, for all of its beauty, is but a cold and sterile way of viewing the world without understanding, context, and morality. For me, Judaism is a framework for thought on that. Just as the scientific method provides a structured way to organize our work, religion - properly understood - can be a framework for exploring morality.


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## Sunlight11 (Apr 27, 2013)

Why on earth ppl would go to a place like Israel.... ???? I mean... from USA u can go anywhere... Jews are living all around the world.... !


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## IC1985 (Sep 21, 2012)

Sunlight11 said:


> Why on earth ppl would go to a place like Israel.... ???? I mean... from USA u can go anywhere... Jews are living all around the world.... !


Hello Sunlight11. 

Jews living outside of Israel are known as Diaspora Jews - meaning that they have been dispersed from their central community. So, yes, while Jewish communities exist and even thrive outside of Israel there exists, still, a longing for Israel.

We must remember one thing - Judaism, unlike the other monotheistic faiths, isn't a faith rooted simply on faith. For instance, Christianity and Islam place precedent on the concept of belief (i.e. if you believe in something deeply you are welcome to call yourself Muslim or Christian). Judaism, by contrast, is not as dogmatic. There is little Jewish concurrence on many of the theological concepts that are seen as definites in other faiths. Judaism places its emphasis on the community of the Jewish people - and that community, historically, spiritually, emotionally, is centered in Israel.

We all long for our homeland. Just as today's Palestinians are fighting to reclaim their homes, so are the Jews. 

But, also, of course, there are many other reasons to desire to go to Israel. As an academic, I'm fond of Israel's strong academic heritage and research centers as well as their cultural emphasis on learning, debate, etc. Likewise, I am attracted to the history, climate, and culture of the area.


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## molo1989 (May 26, 2013)

yo are welcome , if you need anything please contact with me


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## ColinF (Jun 9, 2013)

I've just joined this forum and was rather surprised to read hubbly-bubbly's response to the OP.

The question was legitimate. 

I suspect that neither you or I know the OP's reason for wanting to convert but that is not our business. 

I assumed, maybe wrongly, that the purpose of the forum is to provide an opportunity for people to ask questions and have them answered by people who have the relevant expertise and/or experience.

Are you in Israel or au fait with the Israeli immigration process?

If yes I have a couple of questions for you since my wife and I are thinking of moving to Israel.


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## hubbly_bubbly (Oct 17, 2010)

Just thought I'd place this here:

New Israeli database aims to unveil the secret of why people undergo religious conversions - Features - Israel News | Haaretz

_Whether coerced by strict regimes or coaxed by love, there have always been those to switch from one religion to another. Researchers at Ben Gurion University are compiling complete database of every known conversion in history to better understand the reasons why. - By Danna Harman	_ |


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## hubbly_bubbly (Oct 17, 2010)

Hmm.

If anyone is still standing around in this immigration to Israel line (thread), perhaps someone could please explain to me the intracacies of this article? 

Knesset passes bill distinguishing between Muslim and Christian Arabs - National Israel News | Haaretz

I wonder if there will be a surge of "conversions" from Islam to Christianity?


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## c398x2 (Sep 22, 2012)

Sorry to interrupt the *more than obvious clash* of religions ... 

As the 'retiree' Snowbird, I came here to this site to find out specific info in regard to a 3-6 month temporary move to a 'warmer climate' come the cold weather. I didn't plan properly last year, so ... 

I'm not a Jew; I too have advanced degrees; have been to Israel 4Xs before - long ago. 

I'm a Vietnam veteran who doesn't have qualms with visiting a country where I once fought - as now, only 24% of 'those' are still alive today. The same application could be made, what with Gaza, which I had visited long ago, prior to its handover, as well as my personal visits to the 'Dome', synonymous with the 'Wall' tourist visit, based solely on its close proximity.

I just want a good Falafel sandwich to savor. Some Jaffa oranges/fruits, and admire the younger Israeli women on the Tel Aviv beach, all for my bucket list. (Like America, the 42+ country blends makes poetry.)

Anyone have input? Sorry, but I don't want to have to become Captain Kirk while searching for what are seemingly normal wants that have been given to us from on high in some sort of physics lesson confrontation.

2 things are certain! We come here with nothing - WE leave with nothing.

Peace Out!


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