# Solar panels with battery backup



## Franco-Belgian Brit

This is something I want to look into, so does anyone have any experiences of such an installation?

In Belgium, it seems you are not allowed a battery system as the authorities want you to sell any excess back to the grid (at a rip-off price). From what I see, this is not the case in France.


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## rynd2it

Franco-Belgian Brit said:


> This is something I want to look into, so does anyone have any experiences of such an installation?
> 
> In Belgium, it seems you are not allowed a battery system as the authorities want you to sell any excess back to the grid (at a rip-off price). From what I see, this is not the case in France.


I have several years experience of the solar industry in California and from that I can say that battery back-ups are horribly expensive and not recommended. One system I configured for a prospect who wanted to be totally off grid increased the price of the system from about $25,000 to well over $60,000! The batteries only last about 5 years, far better to be grid connected and use the grid as the back-up - produce during the day, consume at night. Most of the inverters for DC to AC conversion require an AC connection to the grid to even switch on.

From what I know of the French systems, you can sell back to the grid at a rate of 50% of what you pay to use the grid, subject to a number of conditions which are quite onerous. There are NO Ma Renov or other subsidies available for solar in France, believe me I've looked. The French seem uninterested in promoting solar electricity so basically you are on your own. Also in France any system must be on the house roof for the sell-back to be used, ground racks, pergolas etc don't qualify.

If you are serious about solar, then look for RGE certified installers in your chosen area and get some quotes - good luck


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## Bevdeforges

I can only tell you what DH has rigged up here at home. He has a couple of discrete solar panels which are simply propped up against the outside walls of the house. One he uses for powering his ham radio equipment (or several elements of it) and that one feeds a small-ish collector battery (since he does so much of his radio stuff at night, due to better propagation). 

The other solar panel is propped up next to the "garage" (actually more of a car port where we keep the donkey carts and some garden tools). The power is used to charge a small battery underneath the seat of the donkey cart, which powers the rotating light ("girophare" in French) which indicates that our donkey cart is a "slow moving vehicle" when we are out on the roads. The two batteries involved are roughly the size and shape of a regular 12 V battery for a passenger car - which makes sense given that lots of ham radio equipment can be built into a car for use while mobile. And I assume that most girophares type lights are also built to run from a vehicle's 12 volt battery. Still, it's a start - and in the case of the radio equipment, allows DH to transmit and receive even when the power is out.


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## LFBEUSTON

rynd2it said:


> I have several years experience of the solar industry in California and from that I can say that battery back-ups are horribly expensive and not recommended. One system I configured for a prospect who wanted to be totally off grid increased the price of the system from about $25,000 to well over $60,000! The batteries only last about 5 years, far better to be grid connected and use the grid as the back-up - produce during the day, consume at night. Most of the inverters for DC to AC conversion require an AC connection to the grid to even switch on.
> 
> From what I know of the French systems, you can sell back to the grid at a rate of 50% of what you pay to use the grid, subject to a number of conditions which are quite onerous. There are NO Ma Renov or other subsidies available for solar in France, believe me I've looked. The French seem uninterested in promoting solar electricity so basically you are on your own. Also in France any system must be on the house roof for the sell-back to be used, ground racks, pergolas etc don't qualify.
> 
> If you are serious about solar, then look for RGE certified installers in your chosen area and get some quotes - good luck


Are solar panels economical? Forget the controversy about production, eco and all that 'green' stuff. I simply would like to know if I would realise the capitol investment of installing solar panels. I'm in my Middle 70s and have serious doubts about regaining my investment. You say you have several years experience in the industry so I think you may be qualified to say. If you would that is?


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## Franco-Belgian Brit

rynd2it said:


> I have several years experience of the solar industry in California and from that I can say that battery back-ups are horribly expensive and not recommended. One system I configured for a prospect who wanted to be totally off grid increased the price of the system from about $25,000 to well over $60,000! The batteries only last about 5 years, far better to be grid connected and use the grid as the back-up - produce during the day, consume at night. Most of the inverters for DC to AC conversion require an AC connection to the grid to even switch on.
> 
> From what I know of the French systems, you can sell back to the grid at a rate of 50% of what you pay to use the grid, subject to a number of conditions which are quite onerous. There are NO Ma Renov or other subsidies available for solar in France, believe me I've looked. The French seem uninterested in promoting solar electricity so basically you are on your own. Also in France any system must be on the house roof for the sell-back to be used, ground racks, pergolas etc don't qualify.
> 
> If you are serious about solar, then look for RGE certified installers in your chosen area and get some quotes - good luck


Thanks for your insight.

I had thought battery technology had advanced leaps and bounds over the past few years.

One thing I had in mind was having cover during blackouts, even if only to cover lights, internet connection and central heating pump (things like that).


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## rynd2it

Franco-Belgian Brit said:


> Thanks for your insight.
> 
> I had thought battery technology had advanced leaps and bounds over the past few years.
> 
> One thing I had in mind was having cover during blackouts, even if only to cover lights, internet connection and central heating pump (things like that).


That's possible, needs a special inverter which functions without the AC signal and you wire the house with two consumer panels, one is for the 'protected' circuits and the other for everything else. The protected circuits continue to be powered when the grid goes off. It's the most economical method of keeping essential supplies to fridges etc


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## BackinFrance

Franco-Belgian Brit said:


> Thanks for your insight.
> 
> I had thought battery technology had advanced leaps and bounds over the past few years.
> 
> One thing I had in mind was having cover during blackouts, even if only to cover lights, internet connection and central heating pump (things like that).


If you are looking to get solar panels installed you can get advice and quotes from most major installers, including Engie and EDF. If you are looking for batteries as an add on, much the same applies. Batteries have indeed come a long way in recent years. Cost of course varies according to your needs.


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## PinkUnicorn

The ideal is probably to use an electric vehicle as your battery backup. But from what I've read, it seems that's not yet possible. (At least here in the USA.)


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## rynd2it

PinkUnicorn said:


> The ideal is probably to use an electric vehicle as your battery backup. But from what I've read, it seems that's not yet possible. (At least here in the USA.)


Where on an electric vehicle are you going to get 240vac for an extended period and with sufficient amperage? I doubt that is a practical option


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## Befuddled

If you can afford an electric vehicle you can probably afford all the add ons and jiggery pokery extras to set up a system to do it. Ford pickup can do it.


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## PinkUnicorn

rynd2it said:


> Where on an electric vehicle are you going to get 240vac for an extended period and with sufficient amperage? I doubt that is a practical option


Solar panels and battery backups don't intrinsically provide 240 V AC either, that's why inverters are required to convert low voltage DC to high voltage AC.
Tesla 3s have battery capacities of >= 54 kWh
In the US the average home energy consumption is ~30 kWh, and so a Tesla could provide power for ~two days. And you'll be able to recharge during the day.


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## Franco-Belgian Brit

rynd2it said:


> That's possible, needs a special inverter which functions without the AC signal and you wire the house with two consumer panels, one is for the 'protected' circuits and the other for everything else. The protected circuits continue to be powered when the grid goes off. It's the most economical method of keeping essential supplies to fridges etc


Thanks. Something for me to get my teeth into!


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## philthompson23

LFBEUSTON said:


> Are solar panels economical? Forget the controversy about production, eco and all that 'green' stuff. I simply would like to know if I would realise the capitol investment of installing solar panels. I'm in my Middle 70s and have serious doubts about regaining my investment. You say you have several years experience in the industry so I think you may be qualified to say. If you would that is?


The property we purchased had 16 panels on the barn roof. They make around 1700 a year from it. Quite a touch having our gas/ electric costs pretty much zero


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## Bevdeforges

Evidently there are a few EVs with bidirectional charging, which is apparently what is required. Interesting is that the humble Nissan Leaf is one of the vehicles that can do it. Interesting article on that: Watt is Bidirectional Charging, V2G, V2H, V2L?


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## BackinFrance

LFBEUSTON said:


> Are solar panels economical? Forget the controversy about production, eco and all that 'green' stuff. I simply would like to know if I would realise the capitol investment of installing solar panels. I'm in my Middle 70s and have serious doubts about regaining my investment. You say you have several years experience in the industry so I think you may be qualified to say. If you would that is?


How long are you planning to live and how well will you cope with power bills when they go up in February? How much sunlight do you get? Still, the way things are going with electricity supply in France, you could be on a winner within a short time period and reduced stress about power supply and costs could even extend your life. Also you could feed surplus power back into the grid and be paid for it; payments are to you will be 'smoothed' for obvious reasons. I think it’s Suein56 (or her username is something like that) who can tell you how payments to you are calculated. 

Only you can decide.


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## ToutesDirections

Franco-Belgian Brit said:


> Thanks for your insight.
> 
> I had thought battery technology had advanced leaps and bounds over the past few years.
> 
> One thing I had in mind was having cover during blackouts, even if only to cover lights, internet connection and central heating pump (things like that).


@ToulouseRob provided a link to a useful tool for calculating your monthly savings and payback time for a grid-tied solar system in France. Different providers have different schemes and offerings, and they keep changing, which might explain the variety of responses here.

The good news is battery technology has indeed advanced. (Even the older lead acid battery banks had a lifespan of 10-12 years.)

Here in CA we have a 6.7 kW solar array with 3 Powerwalls backing it up. It's a great option for the power outage case. We <3 it, as do the tenants living in the other house. As you probably know it also allows us to use our self-generated solar watts during non-solar hours. We also sell excess power back to the utility (which keeps doing gymnastics to eliminate the program).

The incentive piece in France deserves further research, and my guess is these programs are evolving. On this somewhat rural property our water comes from wells, so nearly the entire cost of the backup system was covered. Otherwise during an outage, no water. The program is specific to CA but is being replicated in some other places in the US as some utilities are admitting that they can't rapidly restore power after their infrastructure fails.

Regarding cost - at full retail the robust backup bank would have more than doubled the cost of the entire system. However, we probably could have scaled back to a single Powerwall in that case, and backed up only the main house. The batteries have a 10-year warranty but based on research we expect to get 20 years from them. 

Using an EV as the backup for the house was what I originally wanted and that capability may exist by the time you're ready to deploy your system. For internet searching, it's called Vehicle to Home charging, or V2H.


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## BackinFrance

Nowhere in the US has ever been a leader in solar power, let alone in back up batteries. That honour goes to an entirely different country with different conditions and resources. Even so, that country for various reasons lost its eminence in solar power to China, though it is arguably a word leader in the use of batteries to back up the huge amount of solar power it creates.


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## LFBEUSTON

philthompson23 said:


> The property we purchased had 16 panels on the barn roof. They make around 1700 a year from it. Quite a touch having our gas/ electric costs pretty much zero


Doesn't answer my question though about capitol investment in panels!


BackinFrance said:


> How long are you planning to live and how well will you cope with power bills when they go up in February? How much sunlight do you get? Still, the way things are going with electricity supply in France, you could be on a winner within a short time period and reduced stress about power supply and costs could even extend your life. Also you could feed surplus power back into the grid and be paid for it; payments are to you will be 'smoothed' for obvious reasons. I think it’s Suein56 (or her username is something like that) who can tell you how payments to you are calculated.
> 
> Only you can decide.


And I have I suppose, in the absence of any accurate advice form the industry. It's a simple question. How long will it be before the capitol investment in solar panels is recuperated. Any estimate would have to include all fittings and maintenance, replacement parts etc. Why is it near impossible to get an answer I wonder!


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## ToutesDirections

LFBEUSTON said:


> Doesn't answer my question though about capitol investment in panels!
> 
> And I have I suppose, in the absence of any accurate advice form the industry. It's a simple question. How long will it be before the capitol investment in solar panels is recuperated. Any estimate would have to include all fittings and maintenance, replacement parts etc. Why is it near impossible to get an answer I wonder!


Did you try plugging your details into the HelloWatt calculator?


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## LFBEUSTON

ToutesDirections said:


> Did you try plugging your details into the HelloWatt calculator?


I don't even know what that is! The nearest I can get to any sort of information regarding my question is that it would take around 8 years to break even but that relies on many factors!! Not all of them in your favour! The economics , on what I have learned, simply don't seem worth the cost of solar panels at my age. I'm not at all convinced that economically they are good at any age!!!


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## ToutesDirections

> @ToulouseRob provided a link to a useful tool for calculating your monthly savings and payback time for a grid-tied solar system in France. Different providers have different schemes and offerings, and they keep changing, which might explain the variety of responses here.


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## LFBEUSTON

Thanks for that. I had a look, lots of information. Price appears to range from 8.500 to 19.000 euros for installation depending on different power ratings. I need to study it more but realising the capitol investment would seem to only be viable for a young person or at best a middle aged person. It is, after all, about money!!!


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## ToutesDirections

LFBEUSTON said:


> Thanks for that. I had a look, lots of information. Price appears to range from 8.500 to 19.000 euros for installation depending on different power ratings. I need to study it more but realising the capitol investment would seem to only be viable for a young person or at best a middle aged person. It is, after all, about money!!!


Agreed, there are a lot of factors that affect the time it would take to 'break even' on the investment. Most people who have an EV will cross that threshold in 4-5 years. There are used EVs that don't cost an arm and a leg, and as far as maintenance they're much cheaper to run too. Tires and wiper blades and headlamp bulbs, that's pretty much it. It still blows my mind when I plug in the car to charge at home. Even a public charger is ~1/3 the cost of an equivalent amount of fossil fuel. It feels like cheating...

I'm not suggesting you buy an EV, just pointing out that there are scenarios that make a lot of medium-term financial sense.


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## Bevdeforges

LFBEUSTON said:


> I need to study it more but realising the capitol investment would seem to only be viable for a young person or at best a middle aged person. It is, after all, about money!!!


For some folks, I guess. If money and recuperating your investment are your primary concerns, then I guess in your case it's not worth it. Though apparently there are some departements who offer subsidies for installing solar panels directed specifically toward homeowners in the "older" age groups. Haven't looked into any of these (available here in Essonne at least), but you might check what's on offer where you are. 

Our house isn't oriented properly to make roof mounted solar panels worth considering. But as I mentioned above somewhere, we've had some success with specific installations to power individual pieces of equipment. (And a "solar assisted" water heater installation - not photo-voltaic solar panels, but direct use of solar to heat the water whenever the sun is shining. That was immediately noticeable on our electric bill several years ago when it was first installed.)


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## ToulouseRob

My enthusiasm for a solar panel project is still there, it just got elbowed off the list of things to do by a need to renovate the bathroom. 

But I haven't found an answer to this pertinent question : does having solar panels on a house increase the asking price when it goes on sale? This obviously affects the value of the investment. If the payback time is 25 years (it isn't but let's say it is) and I am likely to live in the house for another 10 years, my investment depends very much on whether I get some of it back in the house sale. FWIW my guess is that as time goes on having solar panels will be seen as more and more important, so yes; OTOH as time goes on more and more houses will have panels installed so they become less of an asset relative to other houses on the market, so no.

Any thoughts?


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## LFBEUSTON

ToulouseRob said:


> My enthusiasm for a solar panel project is still there, it just got elbowed off the list of things to do by a need to renovate the bathroom.
> 
> But I haven't found an answer to this pertinent question : does having solar panels on a house increase the asking price when it goes on sale? This obviously affects the value of the investment. If the payback time is 25 years (it isn't but let's say it is) and I am likely to live in the house for another 10 years, my investment depends very much on whether I get some of it back in the house sale. FWIW my guess is that as time goes on having solar panels will be seen as more and more important, so yes; OTOH as time goes on more and more houses will have panels installed so they become less of an asset relative to other houses on the market, so no.
> 
> Any thoughts?


My enthusiasm for solar, and wind come to that, isn't there at all I'm afraid. Apart from the dubious 'green' credentials I still believe that the bottom line has to be cost effectiveness. It has been suggested that money is my only concern, I suppose it is, only a fool would spend more on something that they can have cheaper! As for it increasing the value of a house! I think it inevitable that should you 'invest' ten or fifteen thousand pound in solar heating then that would go on the price one would ask for the house. Whether it would be realised is another thing!! People who spend a fortune on double glazing never realise their investment and I think the same would go for solar heating. I think it inevitable that sometime in the future houses will will be forced to include solar panels, heat pumps and for all I know a great big windmill on the roof when they are first constructed. Such is the thinking of politicians who , by and large, have no financial concerns!!!! Subsidies won't last forever, as those with EVs are beginning to find out!!


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## Lydi

ToulouseRob said:


> ...does having solar panels on a house increase the asking price when it goes on sale?


The experts seem to say that if you have PV panels on your roof (and more so if you're equipped with a heat pump) this increases your DPE rating and that means an increased asking price (between 15 and 17% more for A or B ratings).


> Si vous êtes en autoconsommation avec revente du surplus et que vous vous chauffez grâce à l’électricité, ce facteur est pris en compte favorablement dans le calcul de votre DPE...
> Concrètement, plus vous faites d’autoconsommation pour vous chauffer, plus votre DPE augmente et plus vous pourrez vendre votre maison cher. SOURCE


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## ToutesDirections

In looking at the financial aspect of rooftop solar, there were a couple of points that nudged us toward forging ahead with the project:

It acts as a hedge against the cost of fuel, which is a major component of inflation. By electrifying the house and vehicles and becoming our own provider, we fixed the cost so that we don't worry anymore about what the local utility or the fossil fuel companies do with their prices. This type of hedge is valuable to homeowners in almost every demographic category.
Since our utility bills would step down right away, the investment starts paying for itself immediately. Yes we wonder if/how our home value might increase in future but meanwhile we're getting paid back now, every day. It's like we are the bank, we made ourselves a loan, and we're also the borrowers paying down the loan (passively, through lower fuel costs). You realize why large institutional investors are big fans of owning shares in public utilities; it's because of this guaranteed, steady return over time.
Our local utility is Pacific Gas & Electric. Due to decades of profiteering and neglect, their infrastructure is in tatters and as a result entire communities are getting wiped out by wildfires 😞 The cost of litigation for their part in these disasters is staggering, in the many billions of dollars. And although there are protections in place to make sure ratepayers don't bear these costs directly, the utility is very skilled in finding ways to raise rates. On a purely financial basis, we did not want to be in the direct path of those increased rates in future. And it seemed wise to decouple from what is clearly an unsustainable business model.
HTH!


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## SPGW

Bevdeforges said:


> The power is used to charge a small battery underneath the seat of the donkey cart, which powers the rotating light ("girophare" in French) which indicates that our donkey cart is a "slow moving vehicle" when we are out on the roads


A gem in this thread !! - btw, I am keen to set up a solar system for own use when material becomes affordable - 
but Bev's comment confirms that society is in the final stages of collapse, or extreme stupidity or probably both. I can understand that law requires a slow moving vehicle to have a rotating light, but does anyone see a donkey cart and imaging it might move at speeds exceding 5 kmh ? Even from behind, before seeing the donkey, it does not look like a motorised vehicle.


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## Bevdeforges

SPGW said:


> Even from behind, before seeing the donkey, it does not look like a motorised vehicle.


From behind, when approaching in a car, you can't see what is pulling the cart. But the point isn't that it is a motorised vehicle or not. Just that it is slow moving and approaching traffic needs to slow down. The way folks drive here, it is necessary to warn cars of slow moving vehicles - most of the slow moving vehicles here with flashing light are enormous farm vehicles - which common sense should tell people cannot (or certainly SHOULD not ) be driving anywhere near the road speed limits, which many drivers take to be the minimum speed.

As to the financial aspects of making "environmental" improvements to your property - I understand that in the US and UK buying a home is considered an "investment" that has a calculated rate of return and all. But here in France, the attitude toward home purchases is rather different. You put in double glazing or a heat pump system or whatever in order to enjoy the benefits of better insulation or more effective heating and cooling of the home over the years that you will be living there.


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## SPGW

Bevdeforges said:


> But the point isn't that it is a motorised vehicle or not. Just that it is slow moving and approaching traffic needs to slow down. The way folks drive here, it is necessary to warn cars of slow moving vehicles - most of the slow moving vehicles here with flashing light are enormous farm vehicles - which common sense should tell people cannot (or certainly SHOULD not ) be driving anywhere near the road speed limits, which many drivers take to be the minimum speed.


Exactly. Many farm vehicles are tanking along at 50Km/h with a rotating light. The point I wanted to make is that a donkey- ( or horse- etc) drawn cart is obviously, from its appearance, a slow moving vehicle, whether or not you can see the donkey. A rotating light doesn't help the driver approaching from behind to determine the speed. It's a sort of ludicrous that you are required to have a rotating light with the necessary battery etc., on such a vehicle.


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## Franco-Belgian Brit

Bevdeforges said:


> As to the financial aspects of making "environmental" improvements to your property - I understand that in the US and UK buying a home is considered an "investment" that has a calculated rate of return and all. But here in France, the attitude toward home purchases is rather different. *You put in double glazing or a heat pump system or whatever in order to enjoy the benefits of better insulation or more effective heating and cooling of the home over the years that you will be living there.*


You've hit the nail on the head!


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## LFBEUSTON

ToutesDirections said:


> In looking at the financial aspect of rooftop solar, there were a couple of points that nudged us toward forging ahead with the project:
> 
> It acts as a hedge against the cost of fuel, which is a major component of inflation. By electrifying the house and vehicles and becoming our own provider, we fixed the cost so that we don't worry anymore about what the local utility or the fossil fuel companies do with their prices. This type of hedge is valuable to homeowners in almost every demographic category.
> Since our utility bills would step down right away, the investment starts paying for itself immediately. Yes we wonder if/how our home value might increase in future but meanwhile we're getting paid back now, every day. It's like we are the bank, we made ourselves a loan, and we're also the borrowers paying down the loan (passively, through lower fuel costs). You realize why large institutional investors are big fans of owning shares in public utilities; it's because of this guaranteed, steady return over time.
> Our local utility is Pacific Gas & Electric. Due to decades of profiteering and neglect, their infrastructure is in tatters and as a result entire communities are getting wiped out by wildfires 😞 The cost of litigation for their part in these disasters is staggering, in the many billions of dollars. And although there are protections in place to make sure ratepayers don't bear these costs directly, the utility is very skilled in finding ways to raise rates. On a purely financial basis, we did not want to be in the direct path of those increased rates in future. And it seemed wise to decouple from what is clearly an unsustainable business model.
> HTH!


Quite obviously you are a fan of electrification and believe it completely worthwhile. Presumably you have added up every conceivable outlay, capitol and maintenance wise and believe it viable. How long it will take you, at current rates ( no such thing as 'fixed permanent prices!) to break even you don't say. I wish you luck.


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## Bevdeforges

SPGW said:


> A rotating light doesn't help the driver approaching from behind to determine the speed. It's a sort of ludicrous that you are required to have a rotating light with the necessary battery etc., on such a vehicle.


You're certainly entitled to hold that opinion. But as one of the people traveling in a slow moving donkey cart, I actually prefer to have the flashing light to catch the attention of drivers approaching us from whatever direction. The drivers on the main roads often aren't really paying attention to other vehicles on the road and the girophare is a cheap safety measure - for us and for the donkeys.


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## Bevdeforges

LFBEUSTON said:


> Presumably you have added up every conceivable outlay, capitol and maintenance wise and believe it viable.


Some folks don't think in those terms. In France it has long been the tradition to hand down the family home to the kids and let them decide whether or not to sell the place and split the proceeds. Since their actual basis in the property is 0, it's a simple cash transaction for them.


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## LFBEUSTON

Bevdeforges said:


> Some folks don't think in those terms. In France it has long been the tradition to hand down the family home to the kids and let them decide whether or not to sell the place and split the proceeds. Since their actual basis in the property is 0, it's a simple cash transaction for them.


I don't agree, you are talking two different issues; not that it matters! Having a house handed down to you and selling it on is one thing; installing solar in your own home is another. Of course economics must be considered. In this case though and discussing it with ToutesDirection he/she is thinking in terms of finance and economy and have said as much and have obviously concluded it is viable.


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## Peter_E

Franco-Belgian Brit said:


> You've hit the nail on the head!


There is lots of information on this thread ref installing PV panels, self installation and the economics of doing so.








Does Anyone Have Solar Panels Installed / Sell Electricity Back To EDF?


I’m interested. Do you have a link @NotALot ?




www.survivefrance.com


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## Peter_E

Peter_E said:


> There is lots of information on this thread ref installing PV panels, self installation and the economics of doing so.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does Anyone Have Solar Panels Installed / Sell Electricity Back To EDF?
> 
> 
> I’m interested. Do you have a link @NotALot ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.survivefrance.com


There is also the virtual battery option to consider, but not a free solution either, but no large capital outlay.








Fournisseur d'électricité 100% verte - Urban Solar Energy


Fournisseur d'électricité 100% verte, renouvelable et locale, favorisant l'énergie en court circuit, grâce à l'intégration du solaire dans nos villes.




www.urbansolarenergy.fr


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## SPGW

Bevdeforges said:


> You're certainly entitled to hold that opinion. But as one of the people traveling in a slow moving donkey cart, I actually prefer to have the flashing light to catch the attention of drivers approaching us from whatever direction. The drivers on the main roads often aren't really paying attention to other vehicles on the road and the girophare is a cheap safety measure - for us and for the donkeys.


Thanks. You are no doubt right in IdF. It’s a matter of risk. I won’t be fitting a gyrophare to my mower to take it on a public road.


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## ToutesDirections

LFBEUSTON said:


> Quite obviously you are a fan of electrification and believe it completely worthwhile. Presumably you have added up every conceivable outlay, capitol and maintenance wise and believe it viable. How long it will take you, at current rates ( no such thing as 'fixed permanent prices!) to break even you don't say. I wish you luck.


The HelloWatt calculator can take your variables and estimate the time to break even for your scenario. Where you live, how your roof is situated, whether you (will) own an EV, these are some of the important factors. Every situation is different so I'm not a believer in rooftop solar for every home, not at all. I think it makes sense to research and investigate. For us it made sense to go ahead.


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## LFBEUSTON

ToutesDirections said:


> The HelloWatt calculator can take your variables and estimate the time to break even for your scenario. Where you live, how your roof is situated, whether you (will) own an EV, these are some of the important factors. Every situation is different so I'm not a believer in rooftop solar for every home, not at all. I think it makes sense to research and investigate. For us it made sense to go ahead.


I understand that you consider it makes sense for you in your circumstances but you must have, I would have thought, calculated the cost in outlay against the benefits. How long , in your estimation before you, at least, break even? I presume that the financial aspect was a major factor in converting to electric so you would have worked the figures.


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## Bevdeforges

LFBEUSTON said:


> I presume that the financial aspect was a major factor in converting to electric so you would have worked the figures.


Yes, but the "financial aspect" can be very different for different people. Some folks, like yourself, will be mainly concerned with payback period, others with benefits expected in terms of personal comfort vs. whether or not they can currently "afford" the outlay (however calculated) and/or to what extent the project will reduce their day to day cash outflow. The calculations can vary greatly if a person isn't planning on reselling the property during their lifetime or has some other plans for disposition of the property.


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## LFBEUSTON

Bevdeforges said:


> Yes, but the "financial aspect" can be very different for different people. Some folks, like yourself, will be mainly concerned with payback period, others with benefits expected in terms of personal comfort vs. whether or not they can currently "afford" the outlay (however calculated) and/or to what extent the project will reduce their day to day cash outflow. The calculations can vary greatly if a person isn't planning on reselling the property during their lifetime or has some other plans for disposition of the property.


When I said 'financial aspect' of course that takes into consideration all the factors you raised. I'm not sure what you mean by 'personal comfort' but anyone laying out the capitol must be able to afford it, even if it is a loan. and continue to afford to live on a day to basis as before because as those who have done it, the reduced bills of electricity are what they are doing it for! It really doesn't matter which way it is tried to be spun the bottom line is cost effectiveness. If young enough there is a possibility of even making a profit, if you believe those advocates!! I don't, but many, apparently do. ToutsDirections hasn't answered my question, for whatever reason, but it would be interesting, if he were kind enough to give them, the figures. In fact I have never seen supporting evidence other than anecdotal references which are worthless.


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## BackinFrance

Anyway, this thread is supposed to be about batteries for solar panels, not necessarily just about the financial benefits. Surely people can do as they please and for any reason or reasons they choose,as long as they can afford it when they make the decision. 

I see no reason why anyone should be required to provide the details of their calculations. 

And it's capital, not capitol.


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## Bevdeforges

What BiF said. (Including the spelling of capital.) No one here on the forum is obligated to provide any more detail than they choose to provide on their situation or query. There are many reasons for making major renovations or purchasing new and innovative equipment for the home or for personal use. Not all of them come down to "cost effectiveness." (This said as a retired accountant who has run too many "cost benefit analyses" to count.) 

The "common wisdom" used to be that it wasn't "cost effective" to buy a new hybrid vehicle unless one drove at least 20 or 30 thousand *miles *a year. Yet the reason I have a hybrid is thanks to an 89 year old gentleman who purchased a brand new hybrid and only managed to put 6000 km on the car in the 4 years before he passed away. His widow sold the car because she "couldn't drive an automatic" and his son (the only heir) didn't want it. I got a very reasonable price on the car (for my budget) and precisely the car I wanted at the time I needed a new (to me) vehicle.


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## LFBEUSTON

BackinFrance said:


> Anyway, this thread is supposed to be about batteries for solar panels, not necessarily just about the financial benefits. Surely people can do as they please and for any reason or reasons they choose,as long as they can afford it when they make the decision.
> 
> I see no reason why anyone should be required to provide the details of their calculations.
> 
> And it's capital, not capitol.


Oh dear! So sorry about the spelling mistake! There is no reason for anyone to provide anything, or be pedantic but people are, just their nature I suppose! In any event my 'question' was asked of ToutDirections with whom I was having a reasonable 'conversation'. Should he choose to reply or not isn't any problem at all. <snip>


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## davegreen

Also interested in this topic. In short we want to be self sufficient in terms of outgoings. We have, over the years, installed double glazing and loft insulation. Converted from an oil burner to pompe a chaleur and installed reversible clim for air con and heating in the winter. The house is now full electricity, apart from a gaz bottle.

We have arranged quotes to tidy up the roof in prep for solar panels and getting quotes for that also. Tbh, we are not that bothered if we don't fully recup, we just want to have as few bills as possible when we retire.

So interested in if we should feed into the grid or go down the battery route and if it's possible to be energy self sufficient on solar.


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## SPGW

davegreen said:


> Also interested in this topic. In short we want to be self sufficient in terms of outgoings. We have, over the years, installed double glazing and loft insulation. Converted from an oil burner to pompe a chaleur and installed reversible clim for air con and heating in the winter. The house is now full electricity, apart from a gaz bottle.
> 
> We have arranged quotes to tidy up the roof in prep for solar panels and getting quotes for that also. Tbh, we are not that bothered if we don't fully recup, we just want to have as few bills as possible when we retire.
> 
> So interested in if we should feed into the grid or go down the battery route and if it's possible to be energy self sufficient on solar.


Same here, minus the reversible heat pump ( our thick stone walls and insulated roof keep the place cool in summer) and we’re following developments on solar for the same reason. Some investments make sense ecologically.
Calculating financial return on investment might be an interesting academic exercise for economists, but not much more.


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## BackinFrance

I think it's very much about adapting to climate change, but of course also reducing C02 emissions.

For me in my mid 70s with significant health issues it is also about being sufficiently comfortable in my home to avoid going into a care home, which I don't at all fancy and also is very expensive. 

That said, if what I choose to do is also of benefit to the environment, I could not be happier . 

Still there are unfortunately those who have very different ideas about climate change.


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## SPGW

BackinFrance said:


> I think it's very much about adapting to climate change, but of course also reducing C02 emissions.


Absolutely. Both. (Being inter-related). In fact, would there be much interest in developing technology for renewable energy sources if it wasn't for the realisation that burning fossil fuels is bad for the environment ?



BackinFrance said:


> For me in my mid 70s with significant health issues it is also about being sufficiently comfortable in my home to avoid going into a care home, which I don't at all fancy and also is very expensive.


Couldn't agree more, and wish you luck. I keep in mind something I was told when my father went into a care home: the average lifespan once admitted is 9 months (in UK). Their fees, financial practices and levels of service are a major rip-off. They are not "care homes" but major profit centres for the companies that own them. It seems that in France things are similar.



BackinFrance said:


> Still there are unfortunately those who have very different ideas about climate change.


Mmm, they're in a similar category as those who were too busy lining their pockets to believe the science that was proving nicotine causes harm, or those thinking that economic growth can continue _ad infinitum_ in a world with finite resources (and every decision can be based on financial cost:benefit evaluation).


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## ToutesDirections

davegreen said:


> So interested in if we should feed into the grid or go down the battery route and if it's possible to be energy self sufficient on solar.


FYI it's possible where we live to do both: feed into the grid and have battery backup. The hardware on the homeowner end exists but the utility also has to support it on their end.


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## ToutesDirections

BackinFrance said:


> That said, if what I choose to do is also of benefit to the environment, I could not be happier .
> 
> Still there are unfortunately those who have very different ideas about climate change.


One of those ideas that has been floating around for a long time is if a path makes sense to go down from a climate adaptation perspective, it must not be financially worthwhile. People are calling out that construct now as a false dichotomy. From our experience with these new technologies and new options, solar can definitely be the smart move financially as well.


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## davegreen

ToutesDirections said:


> FYI it's possible where we live to do both: feed into the grid and have battery backup. The hardware on the homeowner end exists but the utility also has to support it on their end.


ok, thanks, will look into it.

My concern with batterys is that I understand they need to be renewed relatively frequently. Every 5 years or so?


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## Lydi

Depending on number of charge cycles, batteries last between 7 and 10 years. 
This link also gives the average lifespan of the whole PV set-up: SOURCE


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## ToutesDirections

davegreen said:


> My concern with batterys is that I understand they need to be renewed relatively frequently. Every 5 years or so?


Maybe there's a context for the 5 year number...? Even the old-school lead acid battery banks (similar in design to car batteries) had lifespans of 10-12 years. This comes directly from the experience of a family member who lived off-grid for decades, in a community where that scenario is common.

With batteries many variables affect lifespan, starting with their chemistry. Here are a few examples of chemistry variations. 

In addition to chemistry (including design of the electrochemical cells, temperature range, atmospheric pressure, etc), your usage patterns will have a big impact on battery life. Frequent full charge and discharge cycles (0% - 100%) create wear and tear. This is the completely off-grid house scenario, whereas most people these days are interested in remaining grid-tied and using a battery just for redundancy. The grid-tied scenario is (much) kinder to battery life.

For the Powerwall, which is a lithium ion battery, there's a controller called the gateway that sits behind your electric panel. The charge/discharge cycles are controlled by its firmware, which knows how to optimize for lifespan. There's an app on your phone so you can understand what it's doing and set parameters. Tesla guarantees the Powerwall for 10 years. If it loses >30% of its capacity before then, they give you a new one.

I recall my disappointment when I understood that a "battery" is not just one thing. The number of variables involved are hard for most of us to wrap our heads around, and while we're grappling with the complexity that's when the FUD on the Internet seems to creep in 😞 .


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## davegreen

ToutesDirections said:


> Maybe there's a context for the 5 year number...? Even the old-school lead acid battery banks (similar in design to car batteries) had lifespans of 10-12 years. This comes directly from the experience of a family member who lived off-grid for decades, in a community where that scenario is common.
> 
> With batteries many variables affect lifespan, starting with their chemistry. Here are a few examples of chemistry variations.
> 
> In addition to chemistry (including design of the electrochemical cells, temperature range, atmospheric pressure, etc), your usage patterns will have a big impact on battery life. Frequent full charge and discharge cycles (0% - 100%) create wear and tear. This is the completely off-grid house scenario, whereas most people these days are interested in remaining grid-tied and using a battery just for redundancy. The grid-tied scenario is (much) kinder to battery life.
> 
> For the Powerwall, which is a lithium ion battery, there's a controller called the gateway that sits behind your electric panel. The charge/discharge cycles are controlled by its firmware, which knows how to optimize for lifespan. There's an app on your phone so you can understand what it's doing and set parameters. Tesla guarantees the Powerwall for 10 years. If it loses >30% of its capacity before then, they give you a new one.
> 
> I recall my disappointment when I understood that a "battery" is not just one thing. The number of variables involved are hard for most of us to wrap our heads around, and while we're grappling with the complexity that's when the FUD on the Internet seems to creep in 😞 .


Thanks again TD, great detail.


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## ToulouseRob

ToulouseRob said:


> But I haven't found an answer to this pertinent question : does having solar panels on a house increase the asking price when it goes on sale?
> Any thoughts?


Thank you all for the comments following my question. Given me food for thought.


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## Franco-Belgian Brit

Well, thanks for all the replies.

To be clear, we are not interested in payback for ourselves. Our daughter will inherit the house one day, anyway. I agree with the comments about the environment, and to the "naysayers" I suggest that if nobody takes the plunge on the existing technology, there would be little incentive to develop/improve the concept further. Also, we know that reliance on fossil fuels is bad so any reduction is the way to go, in my opinion.

We would like to be self-sufficient if need be. We won't go EV yet as a friend of mine works in development in that technology and says to wait another 3 years or so for a new generation of battery that will increase the range.

Next on my list is to thoroughly read up on the technology of solar/batteries so I can make an informed decision when the time comes.


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## Bevdeforges

Actually, the answer to the musical question of whether or not solar panels add to a home's value might be simply "not yet.¨ The pricing on used cars (including diesels) increased when the availability of new cars was limited (due to transport issues). I suspect that some time in the future, there will be less "encouragement" and more "compulsion" to upgrade a home's electrical and heating systems. And that's when the increases in value may start to kick in. (Or conversely, it may become harder to sell a home with an old-fashioned energy and heating system.) 

And I've been seeing more information about the predicted change in how EV batteries will be changed in order to allow people to store electrical energy in their vehicle's batteries and then use their car to power their homes for a certain period of time. So it may become possible to kill two birds with one stone in the not too distant future. Stay tuned....


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## Lydi

Bevdeforges said:


> ...I've been seeing more information about the predicted change in how EV batteries will be changed in order to allow people to store electrical energy in their vehicle's batteries and then use their car to power their homes for a certain period of time. So it may become possible to kill two birds with one stone in the not too distant future.


My husband has rigged such a system up to cater for any power cuts this winter (we have an Ioniq5). The system works well for the lights, the freebox, ... only the heat pump and oven would remain switched off. We have a log burner and (bottle) gas hob so hopefully should be able to keep warm and have a hot meal. 
From what I've read, any power cuts would only last 2 hours with prior warning. 🤞


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## Bevdeforges

Lydi said:


> From what I've read, any power cuts would only last 2 hours with prior warning. 🤞


That's my understanding, too, for here in France. At present there are only a few EV models that allow for using the car as a "storage battery" in this manner. But somewhere in the article I saw something to the effect that within the next year or two it's likely that most or all new EVs will have the capacity to handle bi-directional power.


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## BackinFrance

Lydi said:


> My husband has rigged such a system up to cater for any power cuts this winter (we have an Ioniq5). The system works well for the lights, the freebox, ... only the heat pump and oven would remain switched off. We have a log burner and (bottle) gas hob so hopefully should be able to keep warm and have a hot meal.
> From what I've read, any power cuts would only last 2 hours with prior warning. 🤞


I do hope people réalise that it is definitely not a good idea to burn wood, even though the French government would have you think so. Yes, it is renewable, but it does not renew anywhere near as fast as it is used and trees serve very important other purposes in terms of climate change.


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## Lydi

Lydi said:


> any power cuts would only last 2 hours with prior warning


Just heard (on the news France 2) about plans for 5-hour power cuts (from 8am to 1 pm) and 2-hour power cuts (from 6 to 8 pm) with a warning 3 days beforehand, with school closures and other disruptions ...


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## BackinFrance

Lydi said:


> Just heard about plans for 5-hour power cuts (from 8am to 1 pm) and 2-hour power cuts (from 6 to 8 pm) with a warning 3 days beforehand, with school closures and other disruptions ...


Yes. It is only supposed to hit any area once. It will be chaos for a great many people. 

And that despite the fact that they have restarted a coal powered power station.


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## Clic Clac

Lydi said:


> Just heard (on the news France 2) about plans for 5-hour power cuts (from 8am to 1 pm) and 2-hour power cuts (from 6 to 8 pm) with a warning 3 days beforehand, *with school closures* and other disruptions ...


From January, I think they said.
Junior is very excited; I told him we survived the one back in '73. 



BackinFrance said:


> I do hope people réalise that it is definitely not a good idea to burn wood...


Needs must when the Devil drives, BiF.
All our usual suppliers have sold out, so everyone who can use wood is switching over this year.
We can't afford to run leccy heaters, a bit difficult anyway during the cuts, and there's no gas out here.
And, as you know, it gets bloody nippy round these parts. 🥶


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## Bevdeforges

BackinFrance said:


> I do hope people réalise that it is definitely not a good idea to burn wood, even though the French government would have you think so.


Ultimately, there is no one single "perfect" solution that will work for everyone. So they have to make as many alternatives available as they can and rely on the citizenry to pick and choose what works best for them and their families under their particular circumstances. The important thing is that everyone should do what they can to conserve energy and reduce pollution. It simply won't be the same for all households.


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## BackinFrance

Wett. I am not stupid and I do know that some people have no choice, but the fact remains that the govt knows it is lying,, is covering up its mistakes, orhas no idea what to do, or a combination of all those things. Nonetheless there are several million people in France living on the edge, not to mention all of the SDF and sans abris, etcetera etcetera.

And people are speculating here about whether their energy saving homes will be worth more in a few years. Beats me. 

Oh and the cost of wood is going up.


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## conky2

and you know for a fact, that the govt knows that it is lying how exactly ?


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## Clic Clac

conky2 said:


> and you know for a fact, that *the govt *knows that it is *lying* how exactly ?


The clue is in the name *Govt. *

From the latin _'Imperium'_ - to lie whilst sounding convincing and keeping a straight face. *🤗*


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## BackinFrance

The black outs can definitely be avoided by minimizing electricity use throughout winter, and especially during peak times, which are those during which the black outs are supposed to occur.

Bear in mind that they will impact the internet in affected areas, unless you happen to be on the same power line as an exempted site, but even then it will be diminished. We are supposed to be alerted the day prior. 

All fixed phones that use voice over internet) which is the standard in France, will also be impacted. 

The internet could well be down for longer than the 2 hour blackouts because many of the antennas have to be physically restarted by a technician on site. 

If you have a smart phone and the EkoWatt app, the app is supposed to work. 

The ability to contact emergency services will be seriously impacted. 

Clearly it is imperative that we all do our utmost to prevent these potential outages.


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## Bevdeforges

conky2 said:


> and you know for a fact, that the govt knows that it is lying how exactly ?


Oh come on, everyone "knows" that you can tell a politician is lying if their mouth is moving. <ggg>

But seriously, there are better and worse ways to burn wood for heat. Just as there are better and worse ways to heat with electricity. The fact is that we're never going to get to 0 carbon (or any other forms of) emissions. So at least the government isn't trying to impose any specific "solutions" by mandate. 

Turns out that plowing fields for planting releases a tremendous amount of carbon or CO2 into the atmosphere. Ideally, agriculture should change drastically to reduce that release of carbon, too, but good luck with that one. So, everyone does what they can in whatever manner they can while the whole culture shifts to more efficient techniques - for farming, for transportation, for construction, etc. Ultimately, there will be regulations - say, for positioning a new building on a plot of land - so that the building is properly positioned to be able to use solar panels, or to make use of "passive heating and cooling" techniques where that is possible. But we definitely "aren't there yet."


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## BackinFrance

I often wonder if people on the forum have any idea about data centers, what they do and how much power they use in the process.


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## BackinFrance

Bevdeforges said:


> Oh come on, everyone "knows" that you can tell a politician is lying if their mouth is moving. <ggg>
> 
> But seriously, there are better and worse ways to burn wood for heat. Just as there are better and worse ways to heat with electricity. The fact is that we're never going to get to 0 carbon (or any other forms of) emissions. So at least the government isn't trying to impose any specific "solutions" by mandate.
> 
> Turns out that plowing fields for planting releases a tremendous amount of carbon or CO2 into the atmosphere. Ideally, agriculture should change drastically to reduce that release of carbon, too, but good luck with that one. So, everyone does what they can in whatever manner they can while the whole culture shifts to more efficient techniques - for farming, for transportation, for construction, etc. Ultimately, there will be regulations - say, for positioning a new building on a plot of land - so that the building is properly positioned to be able to use solar panels, or to make use of "passive heating and cooling" techniques where that is possible. But we definitely "aren't there yet."


Passive heating and cooling is definitely the best way forward, it can be done now but receives almost no attention at all in France and seemingly little or no assurance. If I were looking to build a new home, I would certainly use these principles, and if I were currently looking to buy a home I would also have regard to these principles.


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## BackinFrance

BackinFrance said:


> Passive heating and cooling is definitely the best way forward, it can be done now but receives almost no attention at all in France and seemingly little or no assurance. If I were looking to build a new home, I would certainly use these principles, and if I were currently looking to buy a home I would also have regard to these principles.


There are actually some existing homes in France that comply with the principles, though they are few and far between.


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## Bevdeforges

BackinFrance said:


> There are actually some existing homes in France that comply with the principles, though they are few and far between.


I had a cousin who had a marvelous passive heat/cooling home - in California, and this was years ago. Back then, it was difficult to get building permission - something about having to be built in such a way that it could not be seen from the nearby streets. Still needed one face with full exposure to the sun (south-facing, perhaps?).


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## ToulouseRob

BackinFrance said:


> I often wonder if people on the forum have any idea about data centers, what they do and how much power they use in the process.


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## BackinFrance

ToulouseRob said:


> View attachment 102704


Chewing up energy like you wouldn't believe.


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## BackinFrance

There are of course many more 😪


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## ToulouseRob

You're right, of course, data centres are very energy hungry. And yet, here we are. 

In fact, high energy use is not intrinsically bad, it's how the energy is produced that matters and the carbon footprint of construction.


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## BackinFrance

ToulouseRob said:


> You're right, of course, data centres are very energy hungry. And yet, here we are.
> 
> In fact, high energy use is not intrinsically bad, it's how the energy is produced that matters and the carbon footprint of construction.


Wow, you really haven't put much thought into all the issues related to data centres, not even it seems the current energy crisis.


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## ToulouseRob

BackinFrance said:


> Wow, you really haven't put much thought into all the issues related to data centres, not even it seems the current energy crisis.


*I don't want to get into a spat about datacentres: I agree that they are energy hungry and that the internet as a whole is a growing threat to the environment (not to mention society).* But what I said was:



> high energy use is not intrinsically bad, it's how the energy is produced that matters and the carbon footprint of construction.


The total amount of solar energy absorbed by the Earth and the atmosphere (so neglecting radiation that bounces back into space) is around 1.07 ZWh per year. Total annual global energy use is tiny in comparison - it is around 160 PWh so is equivalent to 0.015% (15 parts in 100 000) of incident solar radiation (let's ignore thermal heat from volcanoes etc). 

(BTW, total annual datacentre energy use is estimated to be 200 TWh, so is equivalent to 0,00002% (2 parts in 10 million) of incident solar radiation.)

What matters is _how that energy is produced_, and burning fossil fuels is catastrophic; that filters through into the carbon footprint of how things are made (constructed).

I stand by what I said. It was not a polemic about the rights and wrongs of datacentres.

1 terawatt (TW) = 10^12 W
1 petawatt (PW) = 10^15 W
1 zettawatt (ZW) = 10^21 W


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## Franco-Belgian Brit

I wish to clarify that I have no intention of creating a datacentre.


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## ToulouseRob

I think BiF and I have been talking at cross purposes. Anyway, datacentres are _way _off topic. So for me it's:


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## BackinFrance

If anybody excels at using batteries to store energy it is the data centers (not solar energy, but massive amounts of energy). They can also capture, store and distribute heat for use by others, but that is still something of a work in progress.


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## conky2

I created a datacentre in my garden alongside a large hadron collider . The Maire is none too pleased that I failed to ask permission.


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## davegreen

Anyways 

We have a man coming to give us a quote this week. Other people, much smarter than us, have looked into it and think batterys are not yet ready yet, so we'll probably go for just panels to the grid. The south facing part of the roof is approximately 12 x 5 meters.

Any idea who much that will set us back?


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## Franco-Belgian Brit

davegreen said:


> Anyways
> 
> We have a man coming to give us a quote this week. Other people, much smarter than us, have looked into it and think batterys are not yet ready yet, so we'll probably go for just panels to the grid. The south facing part of the roof is approximately 12 x 5 meters.
> 
> Any idea who much that will set us back?


No idea about the price as that would depend on what sort of kwh output you are after.

I know what you mean about batteries. A friend of mine who works in new technologies for cars says to hang on a bit.

What we may do is invest in one battery for now and then add more at a later date (or use the EV battery as a second one - need to get an EV first, though  )


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## Franco-Belgian Brit

conky2 said:


> I created a datacentre in my garden alongside a large hadron collider . The Maire is none too pleased that I failed to ask permission.


Thanks for the tip.

I'll remember to bury my hadron collider so it can be kept secret.


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## davegreen

Franco-Belgian Brit said:


> No idea about the price as that would depend on what sort of kwh output you are after.
> 
> I know what you mean about batteries. A friend of mine who works in new technologies for cars says to hang on a bit.
> 
> What we may do is invest in one battery for now and then add more at a later date (or use the EV battery as a second one - need to get an EV first, though  )


Thanks FBB,
So the man came around today. He told us that the price has just gone up due to high demand. When we got the clim done, about 2 years back, they had an offer for €6000, now the bottom line is €9,383.

That's for 8 Meyer Burger panels 8.80M by 1.75M with a rating of 375 watt/crete which produces 3kw per year. That is with a 25 year guarantee for the panels, transformers and minimum of 92% efficiency over that period. EDF will give us a prime of €1,300 over 5 years if we take a 20yr contract to sell our excess. The company deal with everything including installation and admin with the Marie for license.

We asked about the possibility of adding batteries later and they said yes, same with further panels.

We used the same company for clim, then swapping out the oil burner for pompe à chaleur. Apparently they can hook up the boiler to only work off the solar energy. Even if they are a tad more expensive we are happy with previous work. We're just sharing these details with other folks we know who are also in progress of getting solar just to make sure the quote is not outrageous, but my gut feel is we'll go with this.

Hope this helps others.

dg


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## BackinFrance

It is a sad fact of life that the longer it takes you to make the decision, the more likely you are to have to spend more because you have missed out on better offers and because these things get harder to source. I however cannot tell you whether the price is reasonable currently, though you could perhaps get a quote from Engie5. Engie and EDF are the biggest operators in this field and the most likely to try to compete with each other. But don't dither for too long.


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## ToutesDirections

BackinFrance said:


> It is a sad fact of life that the longer it takes you to make the decision, the more likely you are to have to spend more because you have missed out on better offers and because these things get harder to source.


Not to mention missing out on energy cost savings during the delay. Agree with BIF here...


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