# Portugal vs. Spain as retirement destination.



## Kathrynj

I am needing help in making a decision about where I retire in the fall of 2015. I had been thinking Spain for a couple of years, but in the last few months learned some things about Portugal that are making me have second thoughts.
Why did you choose Portugal as a retirement destination? I would love to hear the things that drew you to this country over another one - especially Spain.
Thanks for your input.
Kathryn


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## robc

Hi Kathryn
Welcome

Wow you may have opened a hornets nest with your information request 

We will all have made the decision for different reasons, perhaps it may be easier to turn it round the other way and for you to make a list of what you want and then ask away.

Anyhoo......................my list

1. Climate here on Silver Coast
2. Golf courses
3. People are IMO more friendly
4. Cheaper
5. NHR
6. Wine
7.Fresh food
8. Lack of people

There are I guess some more but I cannot bring to mind at moment
HTH
Rob


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## Noknok

Hi Kathryn,

I'm totally new to these boards and will be quite interested to see what others have to say. We considered Spain for a long time - it's where DH's family is originally from - but the govnt there keeps renewing the patrimonio (global wealth tax) which would sting too much, even with the deductions. So, now we're considering PT, which doesn't seem to have that problem. I think both countries have golden visa schemes, which are useful for non EU passport holders if you're planning to stay a while.


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## grammymissy

Hello, my husband and I are applying for our Residency VISA tomorrow . We had to wait 16 weeks for our FBI criminal background checks, current processing time unfortunately. We have a house to purchase, already put down deposit, so once VISA arrives, we go. . We love the food, wine, people, weather, history and all the lovely castles and such to explore. USA friendly, with english being spoken widely. Am not going to miss the snow in Pennsylvania, rain doesn't need shoveling


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## Anciana

I have not made a decision yet, whether it is going to be Spain or Portugal. I know Spain - and expat life there - having spent a winter once on Granada's coast and having visited different parts of Spain. I liked it there - the scenery, climate, food, wines (aah, enjoying different kinds of sherry ;-) ), and all fun social opportunities, a possibility to speak at least four languages each and every day (Swedish, American English, German and Spanish - in that order). I know some Spanish, having lived and worked in several Spanish speaking countries (or territories) in Latin America (Costa Rica, Puerto Rico, Mexico, Guatemala) over a period of years ). Spanish is - chronologically - my seventh language, but I manage rather easily (ok, not shy to brag a little ;-) .
On the other hand, my only experience with Portugal was a short (one day) stop in Madeira during a cross-Atlantic cruise. I have found out that I can understand lots of written portuguese, but spoken portuguese, even the brasilian variety, which is believed to be easier than portuguese portuguese sound almost tatally incomprehensible to me. So Spain would be an obvious choice - were it not for the taxation and inconvenient double taxation agreements, which would too severely - in my opinion - influence my budget. So I am tempted to check out Portugal, due to NHR tax and no hoops (? well, I got to see that) in exchanging my US driver's license to a portuguese one, whereas it is not possible in Spain.
These are practical reasons. I gather that lifestyle and climat are similar in Spain and Portugal, so it is not affecting me much.


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## tzanth

Hello,

I had the same dilemma when I left England. Couldn't decide whether it be Spain or Portugal.

I chose Portugal and although I'm now based in New York, I return to Portugal regularly every summer for 4 months and I love the country with all my heart and I am 100% happy with the choice.

None of my following comments are intended to offend anyone, whether Spanish, Portuguese or British. In my opinion, Portugal is less commercialised than Spain. Also, the Portuguese coastline, in my opinion, is unquestionably and dramatically more beautiful than the Spanish Mediterranean coastline. Algarve can be built up in many places, but there are still beautiful wild parts there too. The real magic is the sugary-white sandy coastline south of Lisbon all the way to Sagres... it is utterly stunning and completely wild; sadly, I disliked the Spanish coastline very much. The Spanish costas in 2005-2009 I visited are endlessly and aggressively built-up for many, many miles.

Food and shopping-wise, I find Portugal much cheaper than Spain. A meal in a restaurant or a week's shop at the supermarket... all very much cheaper than the equivalent in Spain.

I also found parts of Spain felt very commercialised and geared towards Northern European tourism.... ie Starbucks, McDonalds, etc. This might well occur in the Algarve too, but from my travels around Portugal, Portugal feels more authentically traditional, less visited, and more easy to find off-the-beaten-track places than Spain. Spain sold off large amounts of its coastline to real estate and to catering for Northern Europeans; of course, this can also be found in Portugal, but in my mind, to a far lesser degree.

Also, I find the Portuguese people friendlier than Spanish, although that's not to say Spanish people are unfriendly. I mean this in the nicest possible way, but as a British citizen, when I travel to a foreign country, I like to engage with the locals, not be surrounded by British people. That seemed rather difficult to do in many parts of Mediterranean Spain, but it's relatively easy to surround yourself with Portuguese people in even the most popular resorts away from the Algarve.

Property - certainly in the Central and Northern areas of Portugal - is very cheap compared with Spain. My friend purchased a 3-bedroom house with three terraced gardens in a remote village 70 miles from the coast at Figueira da Foz for 25,000 euros. The house is basically habitable, needs repainting externally and the garden levelling but what a deal!

Public transport seems to work in Portugal - the trains and buses around the Lisbon, Faro and Porto areas are a dream and run like clockwork, and the tickets are cheap.

Yes, learning Portuguese can be difficult, but there are some good courses out there. I recommend the Pimsleur Course for Beginners followed by the Teach Yourself Portuguese pack which comes with some CDs and is extensive. Also, a native Portuguese friend told me to attempt to conjure a word from a mixture of French and Spanish if I was unsure of a word in Portuguese, as the root of the language is very close to French and Spanish,  ie the verb 'to send' in French is envoyer, it's enviar in Portuguese.... you see the closeness. It's certainly not a foolproof method and could even be potentially very embarrassing but still worth an effort if you're in a sticky position, language-wise. Many of the locals know their own language is difficult to master and will be patient with you. And that's another thing that is, of course, legendary... the warmth and friendliness of the Portuguese people!


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## polowonder

*EU Citizen thinking of retiring in Spain or Portugal*

Hello, this is my first post here. Since I am only recently searching for a good place to retire (from Belgium, so EU passport), I may very well post a dumb question now and then.
I was pretty sure that I would move to Spain, lots of nice properties for sale there at nice prices. But the political movement Spain is about to make scares me off. 
My reason for moving would be the fact that buying property is not to heavily taxed, nor is your pension from Belgium (in my case) in Spain. But, if the left wings grab the power, will that still be?
So I started looking for properties in Portugal. Prices are comparable, although I think (watching the pictures) that villas and houses in Spain are a litttle bit nicer (for the same price).
Apart from that, I've been reading a bit in these forums, and even if people are giving their personal opinions I begin to have some idea. So, even if I've never been to Portugal, it would be my choice. A plus is also that life seems to be even less expensive there.
Now, I am a car freak, how is it to have a powerful car over there? Here in Belgium, if the car is younger than 25 years, you pay a fortune on taxes. How about there?
Is it easy to import a car (from Germany for instance)? 
The language: I speak almost fluent French, and Portuguese seems to have some simularities, at least written. But when they speak it seems as if the Portuguese are swallowing most of the words. Are there any good schools where expats can pick up the language? There will also be a 7 year old girl and a 15 year old boy (and of course their mother) be with me. They are Filipino's, speak Dutch and English. Is the school system capable of 'following' them? Private schools will probably too expensive (I'm a pensioner), so what about public schools? I know from people that schools in Spain are good for that.
I sure hope to find some answers. Of course, before making the decision I will have to go to Portugal, to check the properties and surroundings. But in such a short time, one can not really know what to expect.
Kind regards


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## robc

polowonder said:


> Now, I am a car freak, how is it to have a powerful car over there? Here in Belgium, if the car is younger than 25 years, you pay a fortune on taxes. How about there?
> Is it easy to import a car (from Germany for instance)?


Likewise a fortune on Taxes both at point of importation and annually thereafter.
You are entitled to import one car tax free under Matriculation, but must meet certain criteria.
Thereafter if you like nice, powerful cars then it is going to be eye wateringly expensive.

Try here to calculate the taxes

Simulador online ISV/IUC importados usados - Imposto Sobre Veículos e Imposto Único de Circulação

My advice would be to buy the biggest most powerful car you can at least 12 months before moving permanently to Portugal because you will have it for 5 years minimum.

HTH

Rob


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## polowonder

robc said:


> Likewise a fortune on Taxes both at point of importation and annually thereafter.
> You are entitled to import one car tax free under Matriculation, but must meet certain criteria.
> Thereafter if you like nice, powerful cars then it is going to be eye wateringly expensive.
> Rob


I must be doing something wrong, since I can't calculate anything there. 

At the moment I have a BMW 320D (100kW) Touring. When moving, I would bring that car there, but it can hardly be considered as a 'power car', right?
So for some time that would remain my 'daily commuter'. 
But, what I dream off, is to find a nice BMW 635Csi, or a 850 (those become 25 years old soon, and are considered 'oldtimer' over here (Belgium). And, instead of paying a yearly road tax of thousands of euro's, you pay less than € 70. Also in sight could come a Porsche 911 or 928! 
Maybe there is some oldtimer law also there? I tried tosearch, but my knowledge of Portuguese is virtually unexistant. 
I believe Spain also has regulations for oldtimers.


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## robc

Ah yes you can calcuate but you need to be patient.
Highlight a box in green type in the new data and wait.It will miraculously appear and then you can move on.

Persist, it is worth it.
As for old time cars, Travelling Man imported his old Jeep here and would be best to talk to.

Rob


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## weatherwatcher

Kathrynj said:


> I am needing help in making a decision about where I retire in the fall of 2015. I had been thinking Spain for a couple of years, but in the last few months learned some things about Portugal that are making me have second thoughts.
> Why did you choose Portugal as a retirement destination? I would love to hear the things that drew you to this country over another one - especially Spain.
> Thanks for your input.
> Kathryn


We have been lucky enough to live in Spain for the last 10 years but just over a year ago have bought a house in Portugal. We are in Central Portugal where the climate is not as good as the Algarve and certainly not as good as our place on the South East coast of Spain so I would think carefully about the areas you are going to be looking at. That aside, there are lots of pros and cons for both so keep on taking the advice that you will receive on both the Spanish and Portuguese forums. My husband prefers Portugal to Spain, he says the summers are easier to live with than Spain but I prefer Spain for the winters. Portugal is a very beautiful country and green for a reason!! Yes the people of Portugal are a lot more helpful and the prices are a lot lower and as others on this forum have already said, taxes etc need to be considered, but anyway good luck on where ever you decide .


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## Mattskii

Well, I'm not quite old enough to retire yet, but here is why/how we chose Portugal:

We were driving through Europe looking for a place to put down roots. Drove across France, loved it but didn't feel at home. Any way we had sort of decided on Spain. Drove through Spain and just didn't 'feel it'. Much of it was very barren, hot dry.... so on a whim we drove down into Portugal. The moment we crossed the North border between Verin and Chaves the whole vibe changed. It was green and lush and people were growing stuff just everywhere. There were forests of eucalyptus, It was green!! We fell in love. Drove to the centre to start a house search within days of arriving. We ended up staying in the central area we first headed too after visiting Porto. Liera. Very Happy. 

Why? It felt right. It is beautiful, the people are friendly and helpful, it is cheap, the weather is excellent - but winters are turning out to be a bit chilly here! But not quite as cold as the UK lol!! 

There may be a whole load of more grown up reasons to chose Portugal over Spain, but I was happy to pick a place on feeling instead! lol


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## RogerTheLodge-r

Hello, 

I find Portugal much better, a cleaner, more colourful, friendlier country. The people are amazing and the views are spectacular. 

We love it !


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## RogerTheLodge-r

Ah yes, the golf courses are way way nicer. and cheaper, much cheaper


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## steve01

Importing a car if you meet the 12 months previous ownership criteria is not a major problem
Cars are very expensive here so it seems very tempting.
I imported a French mercedes c270 2.7 litres 
At the time 3 years ago the cost for an equivalent age and specification car here was 8000euros more.
Car prices here have now reduced , a little.
However the sting in the tail is the annual car tax.
If i bought an identical car here the annual tax is 90 euros
Because of the application of a 'green import tax' based on horse power and co2 emissions.
My identical car is treated as new and very weighted - i paid 675 euros last year , and will in every subsequent year.
The bigger engine hp , the more co2 the more you pay - forever
Personally unless you have a car that qualifies as vintage - different rules apply, or are very rich i wouldn't import a car here, or at least not a + 3 years old large engine car
Smaller cars can still be a very good idea


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## travelling-man

steve01 said:


> Importing a car if you meet the 12 months previous ownership criteria is not a major problem
> Cars are very expensive here so it seems very tempting.
> I imported a French mercedes c270 2.7 litres
> At the time 3 years ago the cost for an equivalent age and specification car here was 8000euros more.
> Car prices here have now reduced , a little.
> However the sting in the tail is the annual car tax.
> If i bought an identical car here the annual tax is 90 euros
> Because of the application of a 'green import tax' based on horse power and co2 emissions.
> My identical car is treated as new and very weighted - i paid 675 euros last year , and will in every subsequent year.
> The bigger engine hp , the more co2 the more you pay - forever
> Personally *unless you have a car that qualifies as vintage - different rules apply, *or are very rich i wouldn't import a car here, or at least not a + 3 years old large engine car
> Smaller cars can still be a very good idea


Just a small correction in that the term is classic rather than vintage and if the vehicle is a classic (ie 25 years old or more) it can be classified as a car of historical interest to Portugal and can therefore become completely exempt of road tax. Insurance is also significantly cheaper. - I pay just €34 per year for a classic car with a 5.9 litre V8 engine.


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## travelling-man

Just to expand on my previous post:

I imported my 1982 Jeep Cherokee/Wagoneer (from South Africa) 3 years ago and used an agent to do the matriculation for me....... because he stuffed it up by matriculating it as a normal car rather than a classic the first year's road tax was €776 and I was forced to pay not only that but also something in the region of €250 insurance. 

Fortunately, I was then able to get the car registered as of historical interest to Portugal and it became exempt from road tax and the insurance dropped to €34 per year. Had he done it properly from the start, I'd have saved about a grand. 

The moral of that story is if you're importing a classic vehicle you must be sure to use a good agent that's experienced in matriculating classics rather than an ordinary agent and the best people to do that for you are the ACP Classicos. 

Had I not discovered the road tax exemption rules etc for classics, I'd be paying that extra €1000 each and every year. 

As to why pick Portugal over Spain? - In our case, we looked at every EU country because we wanted somewhere that we had the RIGHT to live rather than have to ask for visas because we were sick of playing that game and Portugal came out on top with absolutely everything bar the language and we quickly discovered that isn't as important as we thought it'd be. 

The biggest thing against Spain for us was the way they seem to change the rules for ex pat houses with regard to planning etc. 

Oh and we haven't been disappointed in Portugal at all. Everything here is great and the best thing about Portugal is the Portuguese people.


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## polowonder

travelling-man said:


> As to why pick Portugal over Spain? - In our case, we looked at every EU country because we wanted somewhere that we had the RIGHT to live rather than have to ask for visas because we were sick of playing that game and Portugal came out on top with absolutely everything bar the language and we quickly discovered that isn't as important as we thought it'd be.
> 
> The biggest thing against Spain for us was the way they seem to change the rules for ex pat houses with regard to planning etc.
> 
> Oh and we haven't been disappointed in Portugal at all. Everything here is great and the best thing about Portugal is the Portuguese people.


Today, I stumbled upon some sites for purchasing property (and of course go live there) in the US. At comparable prices as in Portugal, you can see a lot of really nice homes there. Double garage, covered and heated pool, mature garden, etc. It also seems that my pension would not be taxed.
Advantages (for me), quite clean there, no language problems, good education, etc.
So, I wonder how come so many Americans are coming toEurope to retire. Maybe another tax system for non original Americans? And, there are states where cost of living is even cheaper.


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## travelling-man

I reckon a lot of it is politics....... Iv'e got several American friends who have asked me about their getting residence here because they're so sick of that fidiot Obama. 

We also considered the US because my wife has family there so getting in would probably be easier but decided we preferred Europe - To say nothing of the fact that most of the places that had low property prices had things like kak winters and/or crime issues. 

Here in our part of the central zone, the winters aren't great by my African standards but they are bearable and crime is pretty much non existent.


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## Anciana

polowonder said:


> So, I wonder how come so many Americans are coming toEurope to retire.


An obvious - and important - reason would be health care. Especially if you have a long lasting condition, like diabetes, etc. requiring ever more costly medications. Americans, especially ones with also an EU country citizenship can save a bundle in Europe, even in one of the highest cost of living countries. Yes, I would much prefer to continue living in a tropical US territory like Puerto Rico or USVI, as I used to, happily, for many years, but... I came back to Sweden on vacation a couple of years ago and got a heart attack. Ambulances, a week in two hospitals (a small local one and a large university hospital), angiography etc. and I was good to go home. Then I got a bill I could not believe: it was about $86 for ALL, (yes, it was US$ 86, it is not a typo), since I was a Swedish citizen as well. In USA, despite Medicare it would be close to $ 10 000, and if I weren't insured there it might be around $100 000 (average cost for noninsured according to some sources).
So please think very carefully about moving to USA for retirement or you might go bankrupt.

Have you tried to figure it out how much health care would cost you in the USA? Just try not to faint


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## grammymissy

As Americans moving to Portugal, with no Eu citizenship, we can say we are not moving due to healthcare costs. Healthcare here for us is approximately $7,000 US per year for insurance. Private health insurance in Portugal for us, we do not qualify for NHS, will be approximately $4,000 U.S. A bit of a savings, but not enough to justify the Hugh move. We are moving for the wonderful people, beautiful countryside, fabulous food and wine, not to mention the weather is far warmer than Pennsylvania. Our only child is married and lives in the UK with her husband and three grandchildren. It takes, due to planes, trains and automobiles, approximately 18-20 hours to travel to her from Pennsylvania, from where we are moving in Portugal, approximately 6 hours. We really see a better quality of life for us in Portugal.


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## polowonder

Anciana said:


> An obvious - and important - reason would be health care. Especially if you have a long lasting condition, like diabetes, etc. requiring ever more costly medications. Americans, especially ones with also an EU country citizenship can save a bundle in Europe


Now living in a country (Belgium) with one of the best health care systems in the world, it will be very hard to find a cheaper country. 
For instance I am a diabetic (type II), and need to take a medicine 3 times a day. That medicine is FREE. I also need to take 4 other medications since I have a generic heart-valve. 
So, in any case (also in Spain or Portugal) I will have to get a personal health care insurance.
But... those properties in the South of North America are so nice.. Well taken care for, mature garden, good space for my hobby (cars)...


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## Ash Jez

I'm in a similar boat here and I know that the original post is oldish, but how about bringing it back to life for those with the same question. I'm in the UK now but the question is, Portugal or Spain.


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## smudges

Spain has brought in Modelo 920. Basically - upon pain of HUGE HUGE fines - you have to declare your global property and wealth holdings over a certain amount. This is if you are fiscally resident.
I can't see any reason for this other than so that the authorities have all the info for when they run out of money from other sources they will tax Johnny Foreigner. Now I'm not saying that they WILL do this, but from having heard tales from living there for 5 years, I consider the likelihood - even further down the road - fairly high. 
The other reason I have chosen PT for when I go, is that it is green!!


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## Ash Jez

smudges said:


> Spain has brought in Modelo 920. Basically - upon pain of HUGE HUGE fines - you have to declare your global property and wealth holdings over a certain amount. This is if you are fiscally resident.
> I can't see any reason for this other than so that the authorities have all the info for when they run out of money from other sources they will tax Johnny Foreigner. Now I'm not saying that they WILL do this, but from having heard tales from living there for 5 years, I consider the likelihood - even further down the road - fairly high.
> The other reason I have chosen PT for when I go, is that it is green!!


 I think there is also something to do with death duties. Why can't one die in piece without the worry of even more tax on your departure. lane:


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## smudges

I do know that if you don't have a Spanish will, which should mirror your UK will, there is major trouble, cost and complications. Plus, your children are automatically entitiled to a share, even if you specifically say not - this happened to some people I knew, they couldn't get around it. Don't know if this applies to PT.


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## travelling-man

smudges said:


> I do know that if you don't have a Spanish will, which should mirror your UK will, there is major trouble, cost and complications. Plus, your children are automatically entitiled to a share, even if you specifically say not - this happened to some people I knew, they couldn't get around it. Don't know if this applies to PT.


I'm no expert but think you'll find the inheritance laws changed in August(ish) last year & you can now make a UK style will but I get an idea it needs to be registered with a Notary.


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## smudges

I'm not an expert either! But a will is vital.


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## Ash Jez

My son thinks my will is important. Anyway, apart from that, how about the original posters topic. *Portugal vs. Spain as retirement destination*. I'm still interested to say the least.


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## MrBife

Ash Jez said:


> My son thinks my will is important. Anyway, apart from that, how about the original posters topic. *Portugal vs. Spain as retirement destination*. I'm still interested to say the least.


Portugal and Spain may be near each other but then so are UK and Belgium, They are completely different countries with some climate similarities but very little else. Different people with a different history, different language, different laws, different culinary experiences and different lifestyles. The personal choice of which is better is totally subjective and dependent on individual preferences.

Since this post is in the Portugal section you are hardly going to get unbiased views so not really the best place to even ask the vague and frankly rather odd question.


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## Ash Jez

Portugal is a country where you can find great diversity of the landscapes and environments in a small area that is not over populated. You can find sandy beaches as far as the eye can see and golden plains and mountains and then vibrant and cosmopolitan cities and a millennial heritage. Compare that to Spain.


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## Maggy Crawford

We have made mirror wills here under the laws of England and Wales with a Portuguese solicitor and registered them with a Portuguese notary. It was not cheap but we felt it was the safest way to go.


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## Strontium

Ash Jez said:


> Spain is a country where you can find great diversity of the landscapes and environments in a small area that is not over populated. You can find sandy beaches as far as the eye can see and golden plains and mountains and then vibrant and cosmopolitan cities and a millennial heritage.


 What is your point exactly? You could retire to either, as many others have, only you would know which suited you better.


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## Ash Jez

Strontium said:


> What is your point exactly? You could retire to either, as many others have, only you would know which suited you better.


Do you know what a quote is? I don't think so as you changed what I said by altering the quote.


Ash Jez said:


> Portugal  is a country where you can find great diversity of the landscapes and environments in a small area that is not over populated. You can find sandy beaches as far as the eye can see and golden plains and mountains and then vibrant and cosmopolitan cities and a millennial heritage. Compare that to Spain.


Is what I said. and not


Ash Jez said:


> *Spain*  is a country where you can find great diversity of the landscapes and environments in a small area that is not over populated. You can find sandy beaches as far as the eye can see and golden plains and mountains and then vibrant and cosmopolitan cities and a millennial heritage. Compare that to Spain.


Further, the question of the original post was, Portugal vs. Spain as retirement destination. The point is - a view to where vs where and perhaps why.


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