# Greek Flags ?



## sjg_ukr (Mar 25, 2011)

Can anyone explain to us why there are more Greek flags flying than Cypriot ?
As you enter Pafos at the highway roundabout there is just one huge Greek flag !
Many private houses fly them as well ?
When was Cyprus last under Greek rule ? 
Are these people Greek living in Cyprus or Cypriots supporting Greece ?
Why are there not more national flags flying , I don't understand ?
Before Cyprus was independent it was under British rule for over 100 years , not Greece , so if people don't want the Cyprus flag why not fly the British union flag !!!!!. 
We were out shopping yesterday at M&S , Fruit Store and Lidal , the only language I heard was Russian . My wife spoke in Russian to every shop assistant we met. So perhaps Ukraine , Russian and all the other Former Soviet Union countries Flags ? 
More Cyprus flags please are needed, especially during the EU Presidency period !
Any Cypriot members comments ?


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## Geraldine (Jan 3, 2009)

Our Mukhtar has a Greek flag flapping away in his garden, which I always thought a bit strange


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## sjg-uk (Jan 11, 2012)

Geraldine said:


> Our Mukhtar has a Greek flag flapping away in his garden, which I always thought a bit strange


Why ? , this is not an isolated case , can a Cypriot member explain this please ?


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## PeteandSylv (Sep 24, 2008)

There is still a rather pathetic allegiance to Greece remaining in the Cypriot mentality. Greece has done nothing for Cyprus, ever. I suppose there is an historic ethnic connection but it is baffling why the Cypriots don't fly their own flag and stand proud of their own country particularly nowadays when Greece stands out as the EUs biggest failure.

The Greek allegiance is probably my biggest criticism of Cyprus.

Pete


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## Guest (Nov 22, 2012)

PeteandSylv said:


> There is still a rather pathetic allegiance to Greece remaining in the Cypriot mentality. Greece has done nothing for Cyprus, ever. I suppose there is an historic ethnic connection but it is baffling why the Cypriots don't fly their own flag and stand proud of their own country particularly nowadays when Greece stands out as the EUs biggest failure.
> 
> The Greek allegiance is probably my biggest criticism of Cyprus.
> 
> Pete


Can it be that Cypriots Greek-Cypriots still see Greece as a guarantee against the Turkish influence somehow. That being close to Greece will avoid more confrontation like 1974

Just a thought

Anders


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## kimonas (Jul 19, 2008)

There is still a considerable right wing allegiance with Greece in Cyprus, many of whom believe still in the ideal of _enosis_ (union with Greece). The EOKA campaign against the British (the bloodiest and most destructive decolonisation in the history of empire) was fought under the banner of _enosis_ which achieved instead independence which was doomed to failure and lasted only until 1963 when the island descended into bitter civil war between the Turkish and Greek speaking Cypriot factions. The first president (Makarios) was attacked by a Greek backed coup in 1974 which failed and precipitated the Turkish invasion. The Cypriot flag was designed by a Turkish Cypriot artist and therefore right wingers, conservatives, prefer to fly the Greek flag as they see Cyprus as ethnically Greek. Anyone flying the Union Jack is likely to get quite a hostile reaction as the British occupation of Cyprus is still bitterly and widely resented (as is the continued presence of the UK military bases). One of the reasons why Cyprus is in such a mess economically and politically is the slavish copying of Greek administration - it is doomed I fear to follow in their footsteps. It doesn't matter that Cyprus is a melting pot of different cultures and that the historical links through Mycenean colonistaion in the 16th century BC has little to nothing to do with the later Dorian groups of the mainland, there is still a sizeable portion of the country that see Cyprus as Greek (largely owing to the influence of Greek Orthodoxy for which the Greek flag is also symbolic. In short - it's complicated...


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## PeteandSylv (Sep 24, 2008)

Vegaanders said:


> Can it be that Cypriots Greek-Cypriots still see Greece as a guarantee against the Turkish influence somehow. That being close to Greece will avoid more confrontation like 1974
> 
> Just a thought
> 
> Anders


It is possible or it could also be their "badge" to distinguish from Turkish Cypriots. Either way it pointless as Greece has never offered any feasible protection and never will.

1974 was not really a confrontation but an invasion politically influenced externally when Cyprus was important strategically in the med. Any further action by Turkey is very unlikely but Greece won't be a player if this did occur other than as part of the EU.

Pete


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## kimonas (Jul 19, 2008)

I also neglected to mention that Cyprus was part of the Byzantine (Greek speaking) Empire and an important cultural centre for the Hellenised Roman Empire that preceded it - making it culturally Greek and under 'Greek' rule if you like for the best part of the historical period from the 3rd Century BC until the fall of the Byzantine Tyrant (Isaac Comnenos) in the 12th Century AD which makes the Greekness aspect of cultural identity here easier to understand. This of course is quite a deep heritage (1500 years or so) compared to, say, 'englishness' in the UK which is young by comparison. It also doesn't register here that Greece has only been in existence since the 19th century as it is the hellenikon that is important (the feeling of having greek language, blood and brotherhood) which has existed since the early Greek City states started to dominate the mediterranean in the 7th century BC.


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## PeteandSylv (Sep 24, 2008)

Kimonas, thank you for your informative posts.

Noting your words on the historic heritage, would you know if Greek Cypriots flew the Greek flag to the same extent prior to 1974?

Pete


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## kimonas (Jul 19, 2008)

Hi Pete,

Yes they did, if not more so as there was no Cypriot alternative to fly. The anti-British sentiments did not really take off until the early 20th century and the rise of nationalism following the breakdown of the old order post WWI - In fact during the war Britain offered Cyprus to Greece in return for their entry into the war with the allies, but as the Greek Royal Family were in fact German, Greece declined the offer. Britain did not ban the flying of the Greek flag in Cyprus as a counter measure to the rise of calls for _enosis_ and they can be seen on many historical photos of church and political and union rallies. They also appear on press photographs following the first serious disturbances against Britain in 1931 when Government House was burnt down following a riot precipitated by the death of a teenage member of the crowds that had gathered to lobby the Governor against tax hikes. I don't think the flying of the Greek flag is a particularly new phenomenon...


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## PeteandSylv (Sep 24, 2008)

Thank you.

So I wonder if the persistence in flying the Greek flag stems from the older generation? Surely the younger people can detect the futility of putting their own flag second?

I knew of the offer made by Britain to give Cyprus to Greece. That refusal cost many lives in the eventual fight for enosis. It makes the Cypriot celebration of Oki Day seem ridiculous to me.

Pete


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## Guest (Nov 22, 2012)

Perhaps an other angle but why is it that even government official documents still using CYP£ instead of Euro. Examining the Inland Revenue and Tax Department yesterday I saw that every tax document I read was stating CYP£. Is this also some resistance?

Anders


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## PeteandSylv (Sep 24, 2008)

Vegaanders said:


> Perhaps an other angle but why is it that even government official documents still using CYP£ instead of Euro. Examining the Inland Revenue and Tax Department yesterday I saw that every tax document I read was stating CYP£. Is this also some resistance?
> 
> Anders


I think it more likely they have not updated them. At the actual offices everything is in Euros. I would imagine after the change there was a legal requirement to show both prices, this is still sometimes seen on menus.

Pete


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## Guest (Nov 22, 2012)

PeteandSylv said:


> I think it more likely they have not updated them. At the actual offices everything is in Euros. I would imagine after the change there was a legal requirement to show both prices, this is still sometimes seen on menus.
> 
> Pete


I read somewhere that it is now illegal to show prices in CYP£. Funny when the government do it and ONLY in CYP£

Anders


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## kimonas (Jul 19, 2008)

PeteandSylv said:


> Thank you.
> 
> So I wonder if the persistence in flying the Greek flag stems from the older generation? Surely the younger people can detect the futility of putting their own flag second?
> 
> ...


Hi Pete,

No I doubt it - my three year old twins came back from Kintergarten the other day sporting their sparking blue and white flags that they had made and were quite happily waving them around- for balance they also had coloured in printed outlines of the Cypriot flag. In the national psyche I think the two just go together as part of the overall identity. Similarly if you go into any Greek Orthodox Church on a celebration day where there is a Greek or Cypriot diaspora, you will find that the bunting consists of alternate Greek and Cypriot flags (and sometimes the two headed eagle banner of the Byzantine empire). All the younger generation that I know have Greek flags hanging out of their windows on days of national celebration...


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## Geraldine (Jan 3, 2009)

Thanks. Kimonas. for the lesson, it explains a lot of how the old generation, especially in this village, view the history of the past.


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## PeteandSylv (Sep 24, 2008)

Kimonas,

Thanks for putting a new perspective on this issue for us.

Sadly it suggests that the Greek obsession is so entrenched it will take a long time to remove even with the best will. A pity for Cyprus.

Pete


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## sjg_ukr (Mar 25, 2011)

Very interesting , thanks for all the comments and insights .
It still seems hard to understand why a nation would rather fly another nations flag , than their own !
A country needs to proud of itself and it's flag to succeed , this is disappearing in England also , as dam political correctness takes over. 
But the Cypriots need to stand together and be proud of this beautiful island , they now have independence over an island that countries have fought over for thousands of years.
The Turkish flag that was made on the hills over looking nicosia is their symbol and a statement to the people of Cyprus . And what do most Cypriots do ? Well instead of showing solidarity by flying their own nations flag all over Cyprus , they fly a different countries , ie Greece !
Cyprus is currently the EU President and what do visitors see when they come here ? Flags of Greece !
Come on Cyprus be proud of yourselves and your country !


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## Geraldine (Jan 3, 2009)

In the UK you have a nation who want to be patriotic and fly the flag, but are told it may offend others who aren't British !!

Can you imagine a more bizarre government ?


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## Guest (Nov 24, 2012)

At the same time Cyprus have a very short experience as a free nation, able to make its own decisions. Perhaps this is one of the reasons together with what happened 1974. 


Anders


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## PeteandSylv (Sep 24, 2008)

Vegaanders said:


> At the same time Cyprus have a very short experience as a free nation, able to make its own decisions. Perhaps this is one of the reasons together with what happened 1974.
> 
> 
> Anders


and for the last 4 years those decisions have mainly been bad ones made by an idiot!


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## kimonas (Jul 19, 2008)

sjg_ukr said:


> Very interesting , thanks for all the comments and insights .
> It still seems hard to understand why a nation would rather fly another nations flag , than their own !
> A country needs to proud of itself and it's flag to succeed , this is disappearing in England also , as dam political correctness takes over.
> But the Cypriots need to stand together and be proud of this beautiful island , they now have independence over an island that countries have fought over for thousands of years.
> ...


As explained in an earlier post, many people see the Cypriot flag as a symbol of a failed experiment in independence (which lasted only three years from 1960-1963). From 1964 Cyprus had descended into a bitter division in which the minority population had been isolated into enclaves that became increasingly ghettoised, during which the government apparatus was unable to operate as the Turkish Cypriot part of the legislature had either voluntarily been withdrawn or had been forced to, and during which the UN peace-keeping force was stationed on an increasingly divided island. The division of Nicosia and the drawing of the green line, for example, happened in 1964 after particularly violent intercommunal bloodletting. The history of the Kyrenia mountain chain flag in the so called TRNC is also widely misunderstood. It began life in the summer of 1974 as a memorial to those civilian men and boys that had been massacred by the EOKA-B Greek Cypriot irregulars by the women of the village of Tochni that had taken up residence in the north after their male villagers had been driven away to their summary execution. This and other massacres had in part precipitated the Turkish invasion, which is seen from an anatolian historical perspective as a peace-keeping intervention to protect the minority Turkish Cypriot population. This history is not taught in the south where there is a widely held belief that the Turkish Cypriot and Greek Cypriot populations lived in harmony until the 1974 invasion. I suspect that deep down, the Cypriot flag is a bitter reminder of the total (and continuing failure) of the Republic of Cyprus to administer this beautiful island - 36% of which is still occupied by force of arms. It still remains one of the most highly militarised places on the planet and has the world's last divided capital cities...The irony of course is that it was the Greek junta's infiltration of Cyprus and its attempt to kill Makarios (in effect a Greek invasion) in 1974 that led to the disaster of 1974, and yet it is the Greek flag that is widely flown. As I wrote in an earlier post, it's complicated...


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## PeteandSylv (Sep 24, 2008)

kimonas said:


> As explained in an earlier post, many people see the Cypriot flag as a symbol of a failed experiment in independence (which lasted only three years from 1960-1963). From 1964 Cyprus had descended into a bitter division in which the minority population had been isolated into enclaves that became increasingly ghettoised, during which the government apparatus was unable to operate as the Turkish Cypriot part of the legislature had either voluntarily been withdrawn or had been forced to, and during which the UN peace-keeping force was stationed on an increasingly divided island. The division of Nicosia and the drawing of the green line, for example, happened in 1964 after particularly violent intercommunal bloodletting. The history of the Kyrenia mountain chain flag in the so called TRNC is also widely misunderstood. It began life in the summer of 1974 as a memorial to those civilian men and boys that had been massacred by the EOKA-B Greek Cypriot irregulars by the women of the village of Tochni that had taken up residence in the north after their male villagers had been driven away to their summary execution. This and other massacres had in part precipitated the Turkish invasion, which is seen from an anatolian historical perspective as a peace-keeping intervention to protect the minority Turkish Cypriot population. This history is not taught in the south where there is a widely held belief that the Turkish Cypriot and Greek Cypriot populations lived in harmony until the 1974 invasion. I suspect that deep down, the Cypriot flag is a bitter reminder of the total (and continuing failure) of the Republic of Cyprus to administer this beautiful island - 36% of which is still occupied by force of arms. It still remains one of the most highly militarised places on the planet and has the world's last divided capital cities...The irony of course is that it was the Greek junta's infiltration of Cyprus and its attempt to kill Makarios (in effect a Greek invasion) in 1974 that led to the disaster of 1974, and yet it is the Greek flag that is widely flown. As I wrote in an earlier post, it's complicated...


There are so many interpretations of the events available often biased by the allegiance of the interpreter. Could I ask you for a little more detail on some points:

_From 1964 Cyprus had descended into a bitter division_ This is a common event seen in many places in the world, tribe on tribe, religion on religion. There is always a catalyst for these events. In Cyprus who was responsible for the divisions?

Can you confirm that the population lived in harmony prior to this time? It seems they must have as the population was interspersed throughout the island.

What effect would the killing of Makarios have had on the population as a whole and on the Turkish Cypriot population in particular? Why did Greece continue to be the "worshipped" nation that it is today when they could have been interpreted as the cause of unrest. What role do you attribute to the UK and the USA in the 1974 invasion.

I apologise if this sounds like an exam paper but I've only read one detailed account of events and am interested in other accounts.

Pete


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## kimonas (Jul 19, 2008)

The catalyst for the disintegration of inter-communal tolerance (I hesitate to call it harmony) was probably the unworkable terms of the independence from Britain. During the bitter anti-colonial struggle, Turkish Cypriots were pitted against their compatriots through the tradition (encouraged by the British) of Turkish Cypriot recruitment into the colonial police forces. The Turkish Cypriot minority communities were widely dispersed across the island, with no dominant region – there were in fact relatively few bi-communal villages with Church and Mosque standing side by side and where this did occur, the communities kept themselves pretty much to themselves – with two coffee houses in ‘mixed villages’, one serving Turkish coffee and the other Greek. In some regions Kato and Pano (upper and lower) villages normally held the different populations where there was a minority presence. There was virtually no intermarriage, no intercommunal schooling and whilst many held friendships with neighbours and celebrated joint festivities and holidays together, the ties were not strong. When independence arrived in the form of a straightjacketed constitution in which the minority Turkish Cypriots were to be guaranteed a voice (and with Britain, Turkey and Greece as Guarator powers given the right to intervene to maintain the status quo) it did not take long for the calls for union with Greece to resurface, and those calls made by an increasingly extremist and militant group of Greek Cypriots, encouraged, financed and armed by the Greek Junta who desperately needed a foreign policy coup to deflect attention away from the appalling state of affairs in Greece (illustrated by the hardline crackdown on students who resisted the regime which culminated in the Polytechnic deaths in Athens of 1973). The Military Junta (1967-1974) is seen as a criminal phase and far removed from the ideal of the Greek motherland – culturally Greek ties remain intact (as illustrated by the flag issue under discussion in this thread).
The fact that Makarios survived the coup attack on the palace (and was widely thought to have been killed but had in fact escaped and was whisked to safety in an RAF helicopter) led to his lobbying the UN Security Council in a plea to intervene and save Cyprus from the Junta and the murderous activities of EOKA-B that had set about wiping out resistance whether fellow Greek Cypriot, Greek or Turkish. The new President/Dictator, Nicos Sampson, lasted less than 5 days in office. It is easy to demonise him (and doing so sweeps the responsibility of others under a convenient carpet) but the fact that Turkey intervened led to the collapse of the Junta in Athens and the restoration of Makarios on an albeit divided island on which neither side covered themselves in glory when it came to respecting civilians. Sampson later boasted on his release from prison that had Turkey not intervened, he would have eradicated every last Turk on the island. Britain is often criticised for having bases on the island and yet standing idly by as spectators to the unfolding disaster, but the reality is both the UK and UN personnel were kept more than busy evacuating some 4500 expat civilians and the UN force has maintained its ongoing peacekeeping mandate patrolling the buffer zone that seperates the cease fire line (the ceasefire was never formally acknowledged and a settlement still has to be negotiated). The what ifs of history are always controversial, and never more so in a place like Cyprus where there are so many conflicting stories and where the conflict has been propagandised from so many different players – so I stress that the following is my take of the what ifs. Had Makarios been killed in the coup of 1974, I think the Junta’s and Sampson’s position would have been stronger and the world (already in Cold War mode) would have been dangerously destabilised as the Turkey/Greek relations were crucial to NATO stability against the Soviet block, and Turkey (as the Ottoman Empire before it) still served the buffer role against the balance of Russia. Many have contended that the US and UK (and other allies) conspired to engineer the division of Cyprus as a de-escalation process to maintain the balance of power between the NATO allies and I think they are probably right, but the alternative pathway would have been unthinkably bleak and resulted in many more deaths and destruction. As a Greco and Turko-phile (they should not be mutually exclusive) I mourn the division of Cyprus and the obvious ills of the Cyprus problem and maintain that we can only educate ourselves out of the problem through mutual recognitions and intercommunal confidence building. That situation I’m afraid is still a long way off.


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## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

A very interesting explanation of the recent history of this island
Having lived on the island for 3 years just prior to the split and having both Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot friends at the time everything you say makes perfect sense to me. I fell in love with the island and its people at that time, both Greek and Turkish Cypriots and still feel that the biggest losers in what happened are the Turkish Cypriots who have lost their identity thanks to Turkey flooding the North with illegal immigrants so that the Turkish Cypriots are totally outnumbered and have no place they can really call home.


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## PeteandSylv (Sep 24, 2008)

Kimonas, 

Thank you again for taking the time to provide such a detailed summary of the history.

I think your conclusion is perfectly correct and while any "peace" process is in the hands of politicians whose power cravings far exceed their common sense, there will be no resolution.

How sad it is that throughout history the biggest influence on human life is inhumanity.

Pete


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## sjg-uk (Jan 11, 2012)

So why not make a new flag , if after 40 years of independence , this current flag has such deep rooted issues , make a new one , a Cypriot designed one , a new beginning 
Design it , make it , sell it as a new start . Make it an unofficial Cyprus flag !
Start to come together , start to be proud of Cyprus , stop flying another countries flag because you don't like who designed yours. Go to Scotland or Wales , see what flags they fly. 
Get the young people behind you , stop living in the past with the "old school". It is the young people that are the future for Cyprus. There are now the second generation and even possibly the 3rd generation of independent Cypriots .
This is a great country , so form a new beginning .....Fly the flag !
And if you don't like the old one ....make a new one !


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## PeteandSylv (Sep 24, 2008)

sjg-uk said:


> So why not make a new flag , if after 40 years of independence , this current flag has such deep rooted issues , make a new one , a Cypriot designed one , a new beginning
> Design it , make it , sell it as a new start . Make it an unofficial Cyprus flag !
> Start to come together , start to be proud of Cyprus , stop flying another countries flag because you don't like who designed yours. Go to Scotland or Wales , see what flags they fly.
> Get the young people behind you , stop living in the past with the "old school". It is the young people that are the future for Cyprus. There are now the second generation and even possibly the 3rd generation of independent Cypriots .
> ...


Fine sentiments but how would you make this happen when there is no political will to do so?

Pete


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2012)

Would be interesting to hear Kimonas thoughts about the attempts to unite the island. Is this something Cypriots want or is it just something politicians outside Cyprus want? And how should it be done?


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## sjg-uk (Jan 11, 2012)

Vegaanders said:


> Would be interesting to hear Kimonas thoughts about the attempts to unite the island. Is this something Cypriots want or is it just something politicians outside Cyprus want? And how should it be done?


Correct me if I'm wrong , but looking at Kimonas profile , he/she is a British national , married to a Cypriot .
It would be good to hear from Cypriot members directly on this interesting subject , don't you think ?
Rather than just us Brits , as usual !


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2012)

First I dont think there is many - if any, Cypriots on this forum. But I really want to hear about his insight because he has for sure a lot of knowledge about it.


Anders


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## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

Vegaanders said:


> First I dont think there is many - if any, Cypriots on this forum. But I really want to hear about his insight because he has for sure a lot of knowledge about it.
> 
> 
> Anders


Agreed, Kimonas has links via family and also works in the education system in Cyprus so has first hand knowledge of what Cypriots think and what they are being in taught in schools about the various conflicts of the past.


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## kimonas (Jul 19, 2008)

The preparations for reunification have been ongoing (on but mostly off) since 1975 when all parties agreed to a bifederal state along the lines of a Swiss canton style country with Turkish and Greek flavours on either side and permeable ‘borders’. The biggest issue has always been property rights which has been tackled for a number of years now by the payment of compensation to Greek Cypriots who lost their homes/land during the invasion and subsequent occupation. The authorities here have kept relatively quiet about this but behind the scenes tens of millions have been paid out in the compensation deals. There were also a series of agreements drawn up along the lines of ‘let’s promote reconciliation and agree to mend bridges and tone down the propaganda blame game that has blighted the attempts at healing the wounds of the division’. In my experience, the RoC has done everything in its power to break these agreements by resisting curriculum reform in schools and continuing to promote the myth of harmonious independence blighted by the sudden and ruthless invasion of the Turks. Likewise in the so called TRNC, as was pointed out earlier in this thread, Turkifikation has robbed the Turkish Cypriots of their identity and the pariah status has promoted it as a haven for international criminals (grist to the propaganda mill that the north is a tragedy that can not be saved). Probably the best illustration of this has been the destruction of Greek Cypriot heritage in the north – but the reality is that the refusal to recognise the norths’ status has cut it off from assistance, and when international heritage bodies offer to step in to save sites from destruction the RoC or the Church always refuse the offer of help and then blame Turkey for the wanton ongoing destruction of the heritage. The extent of the damage has also always been exaggerated (as an archaeologist I have researched ex-president Papadopoulos’ list of Churches destroyed by the invasion of the north that was presented to the pope in a propaganda stunt to court world sympathy for the ‘rape of our Greek orthodox heritage’– and a very large proportion of them are either scrub covered Romano Greek basilica churches that were destroyed by earthquakes in antiquity, or Frankish (catholic churches) ruined in the ‘liberation’ of the island by the Ottoman invasion of the 16th century – neither of which had anything to do with the invasion of 1974 or with Greek Orthodoxy. Also a fair proportion of them were redundant churches or those that were privately owned and had been romantic ruins from the 1960’s. Equally the destruction of Turkish Cypriot heritage across the island in the 1960s has been consistently denied by the authorities). 
I personally think that the information age has liberated the free thinking and inquisitive to research the situation for themselves and the propaganda game is harder to control. The realities are leaking out and many of the younger generation are realising now that the events of the 1960s and 70s were a complete tragedy that should be openly discussed and mourned – the genocides on both sides acknowledged and the bitterness dissipated by those willing to start saying that they regret the past and want to look forward to the future. There have been many cultural events aimed at the younger generation located in the buffer zone – bicommunal reconciliation events that are not nearly well enough publicised or promoted. In fact some of the excellent film documentaries that explore the pain that youngsters feel on both sides of the divide have been actively censored or banned here. My hope is that sooner rather than later, the younger generation will be able to acknowledge the mistakes that led to their fractured inheritance and that they will seek a way forward to make it whole again.


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