# Doubts regarding moving to Germany on a Freelancer Visa



## finding

Hi,

I'm 23 and from India. I'm currently running an affiliate marketing business online and provide freelancer services to some clients too (to clients from USA, Canada etc). I wanted a self employed visa in US or CA but none of them have got one, so I'm going with my 3rd option, Germany. However, I've several doubts regarding that:

Doubts before applying for the freelancer Visa in Germany

1. I'll be running my affiliate marketing from India only (since everything is web based I won't need to be present in India, I just need to use Indian banks, the companies are from North America). And I'll only move the freelancer services part of my income under Germany (so, I'll only receive the freelancer income to my german bank account and rest to my business account in India). I contacted my lawyer and he said that it should not be a problem as I would be paying the tax in India on my business and tax in Germany on my personal freelancer income. But I would like to know from you all if its fine? If a fellow german can put some light on this situation, that would be great.

2. If my freelancer visa gets approved, am I restricted to only do freelance work there? Can I do a part time job too (to socialize, basically.. since my entire work is home based I need to find some opportunities to socialize)? Also, in the worst case, if the earth opens and sky falls and I go bankrupt, can I get a full time job in a company there? (Since I've a really great work portfolio by now I'm sure I can get a job easily but I want to make sure if I am allowed to do that on a freelancer visa). 

3. Can I pursue an educational course there, on my freelancer visa? (just in case I get interested, or to socialize maybe). I mean I would still be freelancing but studying on top of it too.

4. If I continue to be on this freelancer visa for 3-4 years or so, is it possible to apply and get Blue card/citizenship ? (like in case of other visas)



Doubts while filling the Visa form


5. Unlike a US/UK/CA/AU citizen, Indians are not allowed to move to Germany on a travel visa first and apply for the freelancer one locally in Germany. So, I'll have to apply it through a German Embassy in India. The Indian German website has provided several visa forms but there's no freelancer visa there, so I emailed them for it and they sent me the jobseeker visa to which I replied that its not what I'm looking for and explained again. They sent me this visa then, titled "Antrag auf Erteilung eines nationalen Visums - Application for a national visa"

Is this the right form? 

Because If I go on the German website, they have a different visa form for freelancers, titled "Antrag auf Erteilung eines Aufenthaltstitels - Application for a Visa or Residence Permit"

Please tell me which one is right.

6. In the form, there's a question: "Purpose of stay in the Federal Republic of Germany
Erwerbstätigkeit Employment 
Studium Study 
Au-Pair Au pair 
Sprachkurs Language course
Familiennachzug Family reunion 
Sonstiges (bitte erläutern) 
Other (please specify)

Should I select "Other" and specify "Freelancer" ?

6. In the form, there is a quetion "Intended place of stay in Germany -
Straße, Hausnummer (sofern bekannt) Street, number (if known) Postleitzahl, Ort Postcode, place"

This another website provides a temporary (Virtual) registration for this purpose (for ~9 euros):

sympat. me/solutions/registration-form-anmeldung-germany/

I'm not sure if its what the form is asking for. Can someone please confirm?

7. Also, I'm not really sure about the exact city I'm going to stay in, but would like to travel through out Germany, once I'm there, to find the best suited city. So, can I just fill in any city for now and later change it when required, once in Germany? Would it be an easy process to change it later?

8. I've to get a health insurance before submitting the visa, which is around $100 month. So, if the visa approval took 3-4 months, would I still be paying those $100 each month for these 3-4 months while not in Germany?

9. I can get reference letters from my clients (from Germany and US). Is anyone familiar with the format of that letter? And if it needs to be in german?

10. Do the german consulate in India take the interview in German or english?


Lots of questions, I know, but this post will help other freelancers too. Please help.


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## Nononymous

So my understanding of the "freelancer visa" - I use the quotes deliberately because it's not really a specific visa, it's just a reason for giving someone a residence permit - is that it is intended for foreigners who want to move to Germany and work as freelancers with German clients. It would likely not be granted to someone with exclusively overseas clients. The idea is that you engage in the local economy, not sit in a room working remotely.

I think all the other questions would be better asked after you've determined the likelihood of obtaining a visa.


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## finding

Nononymous said:


> So my understanding of the "freelancer visa" - I use the quotes deliberately because it's not really a specific visa, it's just a reason for giving someone a residence permit - is that it is intended for foreigners who want to move to Germany and work as freelancers with German clients. It would likely not be granted to someone with exclusively overseas clients. The idea is that you engage in the local economy, not sit in a room working remotely.
> 
> I think all the other questions would be better asked after you've determined the likelihood of obtaining a visa.


@Nononymous I read some posts on reddit where they were saying that its not required that your client be a "German" client and that it can be from outside of germany too, since I'd receive the payments for it in my German bank account and would be paying tax on it..so, in a way I'd be engaging in local economy. It was also mentioned that German government is more concerned if you are able too support yourself and can maintain sufficient funds all the time (which I can.. I mean I can draw money from my Indian accounts, in the worst case)

I would really be grateful if you or someone else can confirm this. I really want to move to Germany and have sufficient funds to support me for an year and more. Would you be so kind to suggest me the right option?


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## Nononymous

finding said:


> @Nononymous I read some posts on reddit where they were saying that its not required that your client be a "German" client and that it can be from outside of germany too, since I'd receive the payments for it in my German bank account and would be paying tax on it..so, in a way I'd be engaging in local economy. It was also mentioned that German government is more concerned if you are able too support yourself and can maintain sufficient funds all the time (which I can.. I mean I can draw money from my Indian accounts, in the worst case)
> 
> I would really be grateful if you or someone else can confirm this. I really want to move to Germany and have sufficient funds to support me for an year and more. Would you be so kind to suggest me the right option?


All I can say is good luck, maybe it will work, maybe it won't. I've only heard of Americans and Canadians applying directly at the foreigners' office in Berlin. A lot depends on the discretion of the individual officer who makes the decision. In the past it was apparently quite easy to get the freelancer's or artist's visa, but in recent years it's supposedly become more strict.

I have no idea how or if it works for someone who must apply from outside the country, like India. Best option would be to speak directly with the embassy or consulate.

I think sometimes when you hear stories about people living in Germany and working remotely for overseas clients or employers, they often have some other reason for being there - in my case it was always my spouse being on an academic sabbatical, with funds to support the family - so granting them permission to work freelance was just a formality to legalize something they'd probably do anyway.


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## *Sunshine*

Although theoretically possible, it'll be very, very difficult.

A few points to consider:

1) Freelancing is a special category of self-employment and some types of self-employment require starting a business (Gewerbe) with slightly different requirements. What do you do? What educational qualifications do you have? 

2) Comprehensive health insurance will cost you more than 100€/month.

3) You'll need a business plan.

There are many other issues to consider, however, these are the ones with which I would start.


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## finding

*Sunshine* said:


> Although theoretically possible, it'll be very, very difficult.
> 
> A few points to consider:
> 
> 1) Freelancing is a special category of self-employment and some types of self-employment require starting a business (Gewerbe) with slightly different requirements. What do you do? What educational qualifications do you have?


I do affiliate marketing and have an engineering degree (bachelors) in electronics.



*Sunshine* said:


> 2) Comprehensive health insurance will cost you more than 100€/month.
> 
> 3) You'll need a business plan.
> 
> There are many other issues to consider, however, these are the ones with which I would start.


I see. Is there any other option than the freelancer visa then? I mean I'm earning sufficiently well but just want to move to a decent country as my current country is halting my chances of progress in every possible way.

What would you suggest? I heard there's a startup visa too, not sure if it applies in my case.

I can prepare a business plan but I am no sure if that means I have to start a brand new business in Germany or shift my current business there.

I'd be grateful if someone could suggest me any solution. I mean I am stuck, my only fault being that I'm a self employed person.


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## Nononymous

I think the freelance route is a dead-end, to be honest. I wouldn't waste any time on it.

You could try looking for full-time employment in Germany. If successful you could be sponsored for a work permit. After a few years you could then see about switching to freelance employment.

You could go on a job-seeker's visa for six months and quietly (i.e. illegally) continue working for your offshore freelance clients while looking for employment. You'd need to prove sufficient savings to support yourself during this period, and have adequate health insurance. If you didn't find a job (or EU spouse) within six months you'd be on your way out, however.

You could go on a language student visa and also continue working remotely while also looking for work and/or spouse. Same conditions apply for proof of savings and health insurance.

Note that you might be required to leave the country and return to India if you want to apply for a change of status. Only citizens of a few privileged non-EU countries are allowed to stay in Germany while doing this.


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## *Sunshine*

finding said:


> I do affiliate marketing and have an engineering degree (bachelors) in electronics.


First of all, you can't be freelance in Germany; you'd need to register a business (for which the permit requirements are higher).

How well do you speak German?


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## finding

*Sunshine* said:


> I think the freelance route is a dead-end, to be honest. I wouldn't waste any time on it.
> 
> You could try looking for full-time employment in Germany. If successful you could be sponsored for a work permit. After a few years you could then see about switching to freelance employment.


I have already got a job offer from one of my clients in USA but I am earning a lot more through my business than what a high end job could offer. That's the sole reason I am looking for a self employed option, i.e, I don't really want to move to Germany to earn more but just to live in a better country (and later get citizenship too).




*Sunshine* said:


> You could go on a job-seeker's visa for six months and quietly (i.e. illegally) continue working for your offshore freelance clients while looking for employment. You'd need to prove sufficient savings to support yourself during this period, and have adequate health insurance. If you didn't find a job (or EU spouse) within six months you'd be on your way out, however.
> 
> You could go on a language student visa and also continue working remotely while also looking for work and/or spouse. Same conditions apply for proof of savings and health insurance.


The language visa option sounds good. Would I be able to apply for a blue card on a language visa? Also, can I change it to freelance or any self employed visa later? 



*Sunshine* said:


> Note that you might be required to leave the country and return to India if you want to apply for a change of status. Only citizens of a few privileged non-EU countries are allowed to stay in Germany while doing this.


Damn, that's depressing.



*Sunshine* said:


> First of all, you can't be freelance in Germany; you'd need to register a business (for which the permit requirements are higher).


ok, I can register a business. What all would I require? I believe it will involve opening a company in Germany, and that's fine. Would there be a minimum turnover requirement too? I mean I can't really move my entire business to Germany as I would have to start from scratch that way, and can't just transfer the accounts and all to Germany. Can I rather start a new startup in Germany? Would there be any minimum turnover or profit requirements? Also, can the startup be a global startup, and not limited t the German market?

Or, can I get a student visa and continue to work on my business?



*Sunshine* said:


> How well do you speak German?


I don't/can't speak German at all, sadly.


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## *Sunshine*

finding said:


> I don't/can't speak German at all, sadly.


*I don't think Germany is a good choice for you due to the following reasons:*

1) You don't speak any German nor have any German clients. 

2) You are not a citizen of a privileged country. 

3) Blue Cards are only for employees. 

4) Students are not allowed to be self-employed (and getting caught carries consequences). 

5) Germany has high taxes and high mandatory health insurance. 

Unless you're earning well over 30,000 €/year net profit before taxes it'll be very difficult for you to move to Germany while being self-employed.


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## finding

*Sunshine* said:


> *I don't think Germany is a good choice for you due to the following reasons:*
> 
> 1) You don't speak any German nor have any German clients.
> 
> 2) You are not a citizen of a privileged country.
> 
> 3) Blue Cards are only for employees.
> 
> 4) Students are not allowed to be self-employed (and getting caught carries consequences).
> 
> 5) Germany has high taxes and high mandatory health insurance.
> 
> Unless you're earning well over 30,000 €/year net profit before taxes it'll be very difficult for you to move to Germany while being self-employed.


That's sad to hear. I'm earning well over 30,000 €/year net profit before taxes but I'm not sure how that could help (unless you're hinting of buying the citizenship, which is going to be a lot expensive).

I do have one german client as well but I only do occasional freelance stuff for him.

I read Italy offers a startup visa and all we have to show is a capital of $5k. Is there a similar thing in Germany? I am already in the process of starting my new web project (a startup) and can setup it in Germany instead. Is there any such option?


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## *Sunshine*

First of all Germany doesn't sell permits (try Portugal and Switzerland). 

Second, what you want to do is theoretically possible, however, difficult; you'll need to plan your application meticulously. 

Third, the grass is always greener.

Fourth, I don't really understand your reasons for choosing Germany. 

On the other hand, I believe in free choice and can give you a few tips, just don't complain if you don't like the end result.

1. Research (especially the cost of living, including health insurance)! You seem to have unrealistic expectations. 

2. Contact your local German Auslandshandelskammer (AHK); they can advise you on starting a business in Germany. 

3. Write your business plan and obtain a Fachkundige Stellungnahme. 

4. Apply for a job seeker permit (make sure to do as much as you can before you leave for Germany). Keep in mind you can spend a maximum of 6 months in Germany and the bureaucracy is sometimes very slow. 

Don't skimp on the planning and research stage, the system is not designed for self-employed foreigners from non-privileged countries who want to start a business and your application will probably be thoroughly vetted.


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## finding

*Sunshine* said:


> First of all Germany doesn't sell permits (try Portugal and Switzerland).
> 
> Second, what you want to do is theoretically possible, however, difficult; you'll need to plan your application meticulously.
> 
> Third, the grass is always greener.
> 
> Fourth, I don't really understand your reasons for choosing Germany.


First of all, thanks a lot for your help. I really appreciate it.

I totally understand what you're saying. Its just that I want to move to a developed country and US/CA have no self employed option at all. And in Europe, Germany seems to be a bit better than other countries, and has got such a visa. Plus I've some good friends in Germany and not in other countries.




*Sunshine* said:


> On the other hand, I believe in free choice and can give you a few tips, just don't complain if you don't like the end result.
> 
> 1. Research (especially the cost of living, including health insurance)! You seem to have unrealistic expectations.


I've planned a budget of around $600-900 a month in Germany (including Health Insurance). From what I've read on other sites, this seems to be a realistic budget but I could be totally wrong. Please correct me.



*Sunshine* said:


> 2. Contact your local German Auslandshandelskammer (AHK); they can advise you on starting a business in Germany.


I've emailed them twice and both the times they've sent me the wrong visa form. Its certainly because no one from my country has ever applied for a freelancer or a self employed visa and so they are not used to handling such a case and might even not be aware of such a visa. But I'll email them again.

Do I need to seek any investment from an investor or is there any capital requirement? Or do I only need to prepare a indicative profit loss plan, without showing any initial money/capital?



*Sunshine* said:


> 3. Write your business plan and obtain a Fachkundige Stellungnahme.


I'll prepare a professional business plan (have past experience doing that). But I'm not sure what a Fachkundige Stellungnahme is, probably its a government body from which I've to get my business plan approved..?



*Sunshine* said:


> 4. Apply for a job seeker permit (make sure to do as much as you can before you leave for Germany). Keep in mind you can spend a maximum of 6 months in Germany and the bureaucracy is sometimes very slow.


umm.. so I'll have to get a job seeker visa first, and not directly a self employed visa..? So, what I understand is.. I get a job seeker visa first, then I visit Germany on it, then I apply for the self employed/startup visa from within Germany. Right? or am I missing something?

Also, from what I've read elsewhere, only citizens of privileged countries are allowed apply/get a visa from within Germany but other people are required to apply for a visa from their own countries. I'll really appreciate your help here.



*Sunshine* said:


> Don't skimp on the planning and research stage, the system is not designed for self-employed foreigners from non-privileged countries who want to start a business and your application will probably be thoroughly vetted.


I understand, If you know of any resource article which I can go through or follow while preparing everything, that'd really help. My startup would be globally focused (just for a very general reference, say, its Facebook.. a social network site with users from all around the world, including from Germany). Would it be considered helping the german market? I'll be spending money on it (and may also get investment from some US clients, if need be) and would certainly be able to make it a profitable business (or be able to seek further investment to scale up). I'll be running my current business from India only, and will only run this new startup from Germany. Would that matter?

Tbh, I should rather be running my new business from a business friendly country with lower tax, but my need to move to a better country is a dire necessity currently and Germany seems to be my only option.


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## ALKB

finding said:


> I've planned a budget of around $600-900 a month in Germany (including Health Insurance). From what I've read on other sites, this seems to be a realistic budget but I could be totally wrong. Please correct me.


$600-900/month for what? All of your living expenses? Rent, unitlities, food, phone, broadband, possibly a car, entertainment, everything?

Sounds unrealistic in general and especially if you are aiming for one of the bigger cities.

$900 is just about €800. If you double this and live very frugally you might be okay. Just about. But don't expect to have a lot of fun on that.


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## *Sunshine*

finding said:


> I've planned a budget of around $600-900 a month in Germany (including Health Insurance). From what I've read on other sites, this seems to be a realistic budget but I could be totally wrong. Please correct me.


If that is all you can afford for living expenses, forget Germany. You can't afford it.


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## finding

*Sunshine* said:


> If that is all you can afford for living expenses, forget Germany. You can't afford it.


That was only for the basic expenses (house rent and food).. I am flexible with the budget and $1300-$1500 would also be fine but I might not opt for the bigger cities in the beginning, so it might be possible to live a non frugal life in that budget. But I'm positive my business will grow in a better environment (which my country is not.. we have to suffer from power cuts a hell lot of times, there's one or two hour long cuts pretty much everyday and sometimes they are as long as the entire day.. and that's just one of the many 3rd world problems).

Living Expenses is not a problem and I can manage to afford it. Lets please assume that I can deal with the living expenses.


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## beppi

finding said:


> I've planned a budget of around $600-900 a month in Germany (including Health Insurance). From what I've read on other sites, this seems to be a realistic budget but I could be totally wrong. Please correct me.


Depending on your age and health condition, you may have to spend all that on health insurance alone - as a self-employed, you have to join the (costlier) private scheme and pay all contributions yourself (employees get half from their company). The minimum contribution is around EUR340/month for the bare-bones "Basistarif".
Depending on where you live and what kind of place you want, you also need to pay all of your budget on rent. But if you choose a smaller town in the East and a room in a shared flat with hardly space for your business writing desk, you can find something for half your budget.
And then you also need to eat and live, which will (depending on your lifestyle and ability to adapt German habits) cost another EUR600-1000/month.


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## finding

beppi said:


> Depending on your age and health condition, you may have to spend all that on health insurance alone - as a self-employed, you have to join the (costlier) private scheme and pay all contributions yourself (employees get half from their company). The minimum contribution is around EUR340/month for the bare-bones "Basistarif".
> Depending on where you live and what kind of place you want, you also need to pay all of your budget on rent. But if you choose a smaller town in the East and a room in a shared flat with hardly space for your business writing desk, you can find something for half your budget.
> And then you also need to eat and live, which will (depending on your lifestyle and ability to adapt German habits) cost another EUR600-1000/month.


Glad that someone replied. I am 23 and fit currently (I'm not sure if that changes the health insurance cost). 340 euros on health insurance alone sounds costlier. That other site sympat.me said it would be 100 euros a month for the private scheme, so.. I don't know..

Does moving on a tourist visa instead change anything cost wise?

I'm really confused currently. I mean I just need a laptop to work tbh (and I make $8-10k a month but there are some bad months.. so on average I make around $4-5k a month) and I'm pretty sure I would be able to exponentially grow my wealth if I am in a better country (India just limits every ****ing thing for me). However, I also fear that something bad could happen someday and my businesses could plummet and so I preferred a freelance visa instead so I can work locally if anything bad happens. 

And I have $20k currently in savings (and I was thinking I'll need around $15k for 1 year in Germany but you guys are saying I would need around $25k)

And my expenses here are minimal and I am not really into spending lavishly. I don't know what to do.. this thread just totally discouraged me and made me believe that I wont be able to manage the expenses. I'm young and confused, I have no one to help me. Every other digital nomad that I know of are from developed countries and they move to low cost countries like Thailand to live a nomadic lifestyle on cheap. I, on the other hand, live in one of the cheapest country on earth and planning to move to developed countries. So, you see.. I don't know if I am doing right.. but my life in India is miserable. I can't talk to anyone.. all are employed in some companies (their average salary is $2-3k AN YEAR).. they think that I am unemployed and broke.. and I don't really want to disclose to them and brag so I have just disconnected with everyone... and its over 2 years now. And there's seriously no ****ing opportunities in India (I mean there are but they pay peanuts and I can make a zillion times more in other countries for the same efforts).

I'm just venting out.. I will really appreciate someone guiding me on the right track here. Is getting a german freelancer visa from a non privileged country even possible?


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## Nononymous

No, it probably isn't.


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## Nononymous

One piece of psychological insight here, just my theory: the reason why people from privileged countries enjoy privileged treatment - apart from their being thought of as mostly white, of course - is that the Germans always assume that they will go home after a few years, because life in these countries must be better. It's Canada, after all, or America, which looks just grand on TV. No sane person from any of these countries would want to make Germany their permanent home.

Ergo, you'll never get the same treatment if you're coming from a country that Germans think is worth escaping. This doesn't just change the legal parameters (needing to apply for a visa before entry versus showing up and having three months to appear at the Ausländerbehörde) but the friendly "sure you can have whatever you ask for" attitude you get from officials if you meet the privileged criteria. 

I'm not necessarily proud to make this claim, but as a fully privileged, fair-skinned, middle-aged, middle-class Canadian, married to a professor and speaking good German, they practically offered me coffee when they put the sticker in my passport, they were so friendly and helpful. I expect you don't get that sort of treatment at the consulates in India.


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## finding

Nononymous said:


> One piece of psychological insight here, just my theory: the reason why people from privileged countries enjoy privileged treatment - apart from their being thought of as mostly white, of course - is that the Germans always assume that they will go home after a few years, because life in these countries must be better. It's Canada, after all, or America, which looks just grand on TV. No sane person from any of these countries would want to make Germany their permanent home.
> 
> Ergo, you'll never get the same treatment if you're coming from a country that Germans think is worth escaping. This doesn't just change the legal parameters (needing to apply for a visa before entry versus showing up and having three months to appear at the Ausländerbehörde) but the friendly "sure you can have whatever you ask for" attitude you get from officials if you meet the privileged criteria.
> 
> I'm not necessarily proud to make this claim, but as a fully privileged, fair-skinned, middle-aged, middle-class Canadian, married to a professor and speaking good German, they practically offered me coffee when they put the sticker in my passport, they were so friendly and helpful. I expect you don't get that sort of treatment at the consulates in India.


So true. And you know, as that one guy once said, our nationality is an accident of birth.. its not even my fault that I have to suffer.

Ok, no more self loathing.

I think I'll just move from country to country and live a nomadic life.. but I'll eventually have to return back one day and that fear will continue to haunt me. (except if I'm able to buy a citizenship someday.. costs $500k for murica, big deal for now).

On a side note, Did I mention that I have a client in Germany and He can write a reference letter for me and even pay me for apparent freelancing.. does that turns things in my favor in anyway for the freelancer visa?


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## Nononymous

finding said:


> On a side note, Did I mention that I have a client in Germany and He can write a reference letter for me and even pay me for apparent freelancing.. does that turns things in my favor in anyway for the freelancer visa?


That would certainly help. But it might not be enough. 

I don't think anyone can predict your odds of success beyond "probably quite low" - but there's also no great harm in trying.


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## ALKB

finding said:


> Is getting a german freelancer visa from a non privileged country even possible?


Have you contacted the German Embassy about this?

Looking at the consular section of the website of the German Embassy in Mumbai, freelancer/self-employed visa is not one of the categories on offer. Whether it's possible to apply anyway is a different question.

Personally, I do not know anybody who is not from a privileged country who has received a freelancer visa. But then, I also do not know anybody from a non-privileged country who tried for one.

(By the way, a freelancer permit would not allow you to take on employed work, you'd be restricted to your freelance work.)

An alternative could be to try for a jobseeker visa and get a regular job in Germany.

A word of warning: most people I know who came to Germany from the subcontinent are shocked by the level of taxation and the cost of living. Used to working abroad = lucrative job in the Gulf region without income tax but allowance for accommodation, flights home, etc. on top of the salary, they are horrified that they suddenly are unable to send money home/save anything.

In Germany - and Europe in general - money runs through your fingers like water.


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## finding

ALKB said:


> Have you contacted the German Embassy about this?
> 
> Looking at the consular section of the website of the German Embassy in Mumbai, freelancer/self-employed visa is not one of the categories on offer. Whether it's possible to apply anyway is a different question.
> 
> Personally, I do not know anybody who is not from a privileged country who has received a freelancer visa. But then, I also do not know anybody from a non-privileged country who tried for one.


I contacted them, they sent me a job seeker visa application form even when I specified them that I want the freelancer one.

And I saw a reddit thread from a polish guy who applied for one and was issued a jobseeker visa instead. And India is not even in Europe unlike Poland, so they are not going to give a damn to me.




ALKB said:


> (By the way, a freelancer permit would not allow you to take on employed work, you'd be restricted to your freelance work.)
> 
> An alternative could be to try for a jobseeker visa and get a regular job in Germany.
> 
> A word of warning: most people I know who came to Germany from the subcontinent are shocked by the level of taxation and the cost of living. Used to working abroad = lucrative job in the Gulf region without income tax but allowance for accommodation, flights home, etc. on top of the salary, they are horrified that they suddenly are unable to send money home/save anything.
> 
> In Germany - and Europe in general - money runs through your fingers like water.


I know, I am not even going to work in europe and neither require a job. I just wanted a freelance visa so I can work for the one german client that I have and run the rest of my business (mostly from US clients) through my indian accounts (online).. so Germany was not even going to get in the money flow and I was only going to get taxed for the freelance work money that I would earn through my one small german client. The rest of the money would get taxed in India (taxes are still as high in India as in Germany so I am pretty used to that).

The thing in my case is.. I am not like the 100% of other people from an underdeveloped country who move to a developed country to earn money or work. I have sufficient money and can make money from anywhere, I just need a standard of living that's not possible in India. This country is a piece of mess.


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## ALKB

finding said:


> I contacted them, they sent me a job seeker visa application form even when I specified them that I want the freelancer one.
> 
> And I saw a reddit thread from a polish guy who applied for one and was issued a jobseeker visa instead. And India is not even in Europe unlike Poland, so they are not going to give a damn to me.


A Polish national would not be issued with either freelancer or jobseeker visa because Polish nationals all have the right to work in Germany under EU freedom of movement rules. That reddit thread is obviously someone having a laugh. 

If the German Embassy doesn't entertain your request for a freelancer visa application, I think that speaks for itself.



finding said:


> I know, I am not even going to work in europe and neither require a job. I just wanted a freelance visa so I can work for the one german client that I have and run the rest of my business (mostly from US clients) through my indian accounts (online).. so Germany was not even going to get in the money flow and I was only going to get taxed for the freelance work money that I would earn through my one small german client. The rest of the money would get taxed in India (taxes are still as high in India as in Germany so I am pretty used to that).
> 
> The thing in my case is.. I am not like the 100% of other people from an underdeveloped country who move to a developed country to earn money or work. I have sufficient money and can make money from anywhere, I just need a standard of living that's not possible in India. This country is a piece of mess.


Sounds like tax fraud.


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## Nononymous

Dude, if you are legally living in Germany, that is your tax residence, you would need to pay German tax on worldwide income. Sounds like there is some pretty basic stuff you need to figure out!

Similarly, with Poles now having the right to live and work in Germany, that reddit thread is either very old or complete nonsense.

The reason you didn't receive an application for a freelancer visa is there is no such visa, per se. The only examples anyone knows of non-EU citizens working as freelancers are people from privileged countries who've made the application at the Ausländerbehörde within 90 days of arrival in Germany, as only they are entitled to do. They are applying for a residence permit - not a visa - and one of the grounds on which such a permit can be granted is to start a freelance business with German clients. 

Unless the embassy tells you otherwise, I don't think you can apply for a visa to do this. Which means it's not possible.


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## finding

ALKB said:


> A Polish national would not be issued with either freelancer or jobseeker visa because Polish nationals all have the right to work in Germany under EU freedom of movement rules. That reddit thread is obviously someone having a laugh.


Probably.




ALKB said:


> Sounds like tax fraud.





Nononymous said:


> Dude, if you are legally living in Germany, that is your tax residence, you would need to pay German tax on worldwide income. Sounds like there is some pretty basic stuff you need to figure out!


I have my company registered in India and I get money from US clients to my Indian company account. As long as I don't draw money from my indian account to my German account, its perfectly legal (That's what ethical offshore business setup thing is all about). So, I will draw some money from it (as much as is required for me to cover my germany's living expenses) and pay taxes only on that money drawn, to Germany. On the rest of the money, I would pay taxes in India. I won't be using any german resources (except for the internet and house/food for which I would pay for) and there won't be any local business involved and I would be paying tax on every single penny anyways and would be paying for health insurance too, so I don't see a reason how its a tax fraud or something. 

On a different note, If I move on a 6 month tourist visa instead, can I freely run my online business during that period, without paying any tax? I mean there are bazillions of Germans who have businesses in Germany and they go on trips to, say, America often during vacations. I don't think they pause their business in Germany during that, or pay any additional tax to America during their stay. Am I missing something?



Nononymous said:


> The reason you didn't receive an application for a freelancer visa is there is no such visa, per se. The only examples anyone knows of non-EU citizens working as freelancers are people from privileged countries who've made the application at the Ausländerbehörde within 90 days of arrival in Germany, as only they are entitled to do. They are applying for a residence permit - not a visa - and one of the grounds on which such a permit can be granted is to start a freelance business with German clients.
> 
> Unless the embassy tells you otherwise, I don't think you can apply for a visa to do this. Which means it's not possible.


When the Indian german embassy forwarded me the job seeker visa, I replied them again, again specifying that I want a freelancer visa and not a jobseeker visa, to which they replied with this visa form:

The title says:

"Antrag auf Erteilung eines nationalen Visums

Application for a national visa"

I'm not sure if its the right form for a freelancer visa..? If it is, then there might be a little hope. Would you be so kind to confirm?


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## Nononymous

finding said:


> On a different note, If I move on a 6 month tourist visa instead, can I freely run my online business during that period, without paying any tax? I mean there are bazillions of Germans who have businesses in Germany and they go on trips to, say, America often during vacations. I don't think they pause their business in Germany during that, or pay any additional tax to America during their stay. Am I missing something?


First of all, there's no six-month tourist visa, the Schengen visa is only for 90 days.

Technically you're not supposed to work on a tourist visa. There's a difference between taking a holiday while your business continues to earn money in your absence, and you being somewhere on a tourist visa working every day for your online clients. However, as a practical matter it's undetectable and nobody would care, and you'd have no tax issues. 

A tourist visa isn't really what you're after, because you'd need to return to India after three months, you could not change your status from inside the country.

As for the rest of it, keeping the business set up in India while you draw only a small salary, the legality of that is something for the German tax authorities to decide, and the point is entirely moot if you can't stay in the country beyond 90 days.



> When the Indian german embassy forwarded me the job seeker visa, I replied them again, again specifying that I want a freelancer visa and not a jobseeker visa, to which they replied with this visa form:
> 
> The title says:
> 
> "Antrag auf Erteilung eines nationalen Visums
> 
> Application for a national visa"
> 
> I'm not sure if its the right form for a freelancer visa..? If it is, then there might be a little hope. Would you be so kind to confirm?


I think you have your answer: there is NO specific freelancer visa, so no specific freelancer visa application form. You were sent the general application form that covers all possible reasons for wanting a visa.

So fill out the general visa form and state what it is you want to do, give it to the embassy, and see how they respond. Most likely they'll say "no" and then it's on to Plan B. Don't keep asking us, we're not the ones who'll be making the decision.


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## finding

Nononymous said:


> First of all, there's no six-month tourist visa, the Schengen visa is only for 90 days.
> 
> Technically you're not supposed to work on a tourist visa. There's a difference between taking a holiday while your business continues to earn money in your absence, and you being somewhere on a tourist visa working every day for your online clients. However, as a practical matter it's undetectable and nobody would care, and you'd have no tax issues.
> 
> A tourist visa isn't really what you're after, because you'd need to return to India after three months, you could not change your status from inside the country.
> 
> As for the rest of it, keeping the business set up in India while you draw only a small salary, the legality of that is something for the German tax authorities to decide, and the point is entirely moot if you can't stay in the country beyond 90 days.


I Understand. Just one last question. I've heard that I can move to some other european country after 90 days and return back to Germany and that renews my schengen visa to 90 days more. Is that right? If not, Can I still keep moving to a different european countries (on the schengen visa) after the 90 days Germany stay (and not returning to Germany) ? What I am asking is, can I keep travelling as a nomad from country to country while not returning to India at all..?




Nononymous said:


> I think you have your answer: there is NO specific freelancer visa, so no specific freelancer visa application form. You were sent the general application form that covers all possible reasons for wanting a visa.
> 
> So fill out the general visa form and state what it is you want to do, give it to the embassy, and see how they respond. Most likely they'll say "no" and then it's on to Plan B. Don't keep asking us, we're not the ones who'll be making the decision.


So, all settled.. on to Plan B. Become a nomad and keeping travelling until I manage to save $100k and buy a Canadian citizenship (through their Quebec investment program which only requires $100k)


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## *Sunshine*

finding said:


> I've heard that I can move to some other european country after 90 days and return back to Germany and that renews my schengen visa to 90 days more. Is that right? If not, Can I still keep moving to a different european countries (on the schengen visa) after the 90 days Germany stay (and not returning to Germany) ? What I am asking is, can I keep travelling as a nomad from country to country while not returning to India at all..?


No, you have a maximum of 90 days in the Schengen Area within any 180 day period (and it is unlikely that the Germans will give you a 90 day tourist visa on your first trip to Europe).

I think that your biggest problem is that you want to have your cake and eat it too. If you want to live in a developed country, you need to be prepared to pay developed world prices and high taxes here.

If you want live frugally, don't look into moving to Western Europe.

Furthermore, I would not recommend moving to Quebec unless and until you learn some French.


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## Bevdeforges

finding said:


> I Understand. Just one last question. I've heard that I can move to some other european country after 90 days and return back to Germany and that renews my schengen visa to 90 days more. Is that right? If not, Can I still keep moving to a different european countries (on the schengen visa) after the 90 days Germany stay (and not returning to Germany) ? What I am asking is, can I keep travelling as a nomad from country to country while not returning to India at all..?


No, not at all. The Schengen visa is good for 90 days total in the Schengen area. You can spend 30 days in Germany, then 30 days in France and then another 30 days in Switzerland, but that's it. Moving countries does not extend your visa at all. And the Schengen visa only allows you to remain within the Schengen zone for 90 days out of any 180 day rolling period. So at the end of the initial 90 days, you basically would have to stay outside the Schengen area for another 90 days.



> So, all settled.. on to Plan B. Become a nomad and keeping travelling until I manage to save $100k and buy a Canadian citizenship (through their Quebec investment program which only requires $100k)


Good luck with that plan. Let us know how it works out for you.
Cheers,
Bev


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## finding

*Sunshine* said:


> No, you have a maximum of 90 days in the Schengen Area within any 180 day period (and it is unlikely that the Germans will give you a 90 day tourist visa on your first trip to Europe).


So, by that you mean at first I'll be issued a schengen visa for a shorter number of days (like a say a month)?



*Sunshine* said:


> I think that your biggest problem is that you want to have your cake and eat it too. If you want to live in a developed country, you need to be prepared to pay developed world prices and high taxes here.


As I said I am not gonna live frugally and I have my business running on its own online (more like a passive income) and my nationality is Indian and so for what I know I pay tax for Indian passive income to India and pay tax to Germany for income earned in Germany. As since we weeded out the work visa and are talking about Schengen visa, I am not required to pay any taxes to Germany for my passive income. 



*Sunshine* said:


> Furthermore, I would not recommend moving to Quebec unless and until you learn some French.


From what I've read online, I would gain a full Canadian citizenship by making an investment in Quebec, and not just a Quebec citizenship. So, I certainly would be able to live anywhere in Canada.




Bevdeforges said:


> No, not at all. The Schengen visa is good for 90 days total in the Schengen area. You can spend 30 days in Germany, then 30 days in France and then another 30 days in Switzerland, but that's it. Moving countries does not extend your visa at all. And the Schengen visa only allows you to remain within the Schengen zone for 90 days out of any 180 day rolling period. So at the end of the initial 90 days, you basically would have to stay outside the Schengen area for another 90 days.


So, If I stayed in Schengen countries for straight 90 days, would I have to wait another 90 days before applying for a Schengen Visa again? That sounds depressing.

I am going to the german embassy tomorrow to submit the schengen visa form.. I'll update here how it goes. Any suggestions on how to speed up the approval process ?


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## Nononymous

finding said:


> From what I've read online, I would gain a full Canadian citizenship by making an investment in Quebec, and not just a Quebec citizenship. So, I certainly would be able to live anywhere in Canada.


Quebec is not an independent country (yet). 



> So, If I stayed in Schengen countries for straight 90 days, would I have to wait another 90 days before applying for a Schengen Visa again? That sounds depressing.


The idea is that you can only be in the Schengen area for 90 days out of 180. After 90 days (or less, depending on how long the German embassy gives you a visa for) you would need to leave the Schengen area for another 90 days, the apply for another visa if you want to return. 

You could in theory go nomadic and continually move back and forth between the Schengen countries and the UK or Canada or Eastern Europe, every three months, but this would be tiresome and expensive and sooner or later someone would figure out what you were up to and not grant you a visa (this is much easier to pull off if you're from a privileged country and can travel without first obtaining a visa).


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## ALKB

finding said:


> So, by that you mean at first I'll be issued a Schengen visa for a shorter number of days (like a say a month)?


Visas are getting more and more difficult to obtain. Often, a first Schengen visa will be issued for an exact number of days. If you are applying for a two week visit, can show health insurance and a return ticket, then often the visa will be for the dates on your return ticket and/or the validity shown on your travel health insurance. 

My father in law (Pakistani national) had quite a few Schengen visas in the last decade, all of them issued with a validity and maximum stay of 90 days.

His last visa suddenly was issued with a validity of 30 days and an allowed 15 days of stay (the duration of stay he had asked for in his application form). Things are getting stricter.




finding said:


> From what I've read online, I would gain a full Canadian citizenship by making an investment in Quebec, and not just a Quebec citizenship. So, I certainly would be able to live anywhere in Canada.


Citizenship would still take a few years, won't it? At least four, if I remember right, even with express entry? 

Quebec is proudly French-speaking and you'll have to somehow make do with that for a few years at least. (Does the Quebec investment programme not require French language skills?) It's also quite different from French spoken elsewhere. I have lived in the French speaking part of Switzerland and am still fluent enough to be able to watch French TV but I was seriously struggling with a French Canadian movie I attempted to watch last week. 

Might be all good in the IT world, though, maybe somebody over in the Canadian forum could advise in detail on that.




finding said:


> So, If I stayed in Schengen countries for straight 90 days, would I have to wait another 90 days before applying for a Schengen Visa again? That sounds depressing.


Yes.

IF you get a 90 day visa in the first place.

You will also need to be able to explain what exactly you need so many Schengen visas for. If any of the countries you apply at think you are using tourist visas to reside rather than visit, it may very quickly put an end to any Schengen visas for you.


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## finding

ALKB said:


> Visas are getting more and more difficult to obtain. Often, a first Schengen visa will be issued for an exact number of days. If you are applying for a two week visit, can show health insurance and a return ticket, then often the visa will be for the dates on your return ticket and/or the validity shown on your travel health insurance.
> 
> My father in law (Pakistani national) had quite a few Schengen visas in the last decade, all of them issued with a validity and maximum stay of 90 days.
> 
> His last visa suddenly was issued with a validity of 30 days and an allowed 15 days of stay (the duration of stay he had asked for in his application form). Things are getting stricter.


I was checking one site that stated the percentage of rejection by country for schengen visas and found that Muslim countries have quite a big rejection percentage rate (somewhere near 30-40%.. that's huge). That could be because of the recent events.. but still its sad that regular citizens of these countries get to suffer for no fault of their own. India was at 6% rejection rate, if I remember correctly.




ALKB said:


> Citizenship would still take a few years, won't it? At least four, if I remember right, even with express entry?


No, with the investment visa you get a PR in a month and a citizenship in an year. Its the same with USA's EB5 visa where you make a $500k investment (and you'll receive whole of this amount back in 3-5 years) and get a green card within the first year. That's what I've read online.



ALKB said:


> Quebec is proudly French-speaking and you'll have to somehow make do with that for a few years at least. (Does the Quebec investment programme not require French language skills?) It's also quite different from French spoken elsewhere. I have lived in the French speaking part of Switzerland and am still fluent enough to be able to watch French TV but I was seriously struggling with a French Canadian movie I attempted to watch last week.
> 
> Might be all good in the IT world, though, maybe somebody over in the Canadian forum could advise in detail on that.


I don't see a mention of french knowledge anywhere but they want you to run a real business in Quebec so I guess they are somehow assuming we know french. Its not like the passive investment scheme that USA offers where you just pay $500k and its all done.



ALKB said:


> You will also need to be able to explain what exactly you need so many Schengen visas for. If any of the countries you apply at think you are using tourist visas to reside rather than visit, it may very quickly put an end to any Schengen visas for you.





Nononymous said:


> You could in theory go nomadic and continually move back and forth between the Schengen countries and the UK or Canada or Eastern Europe, every three months, but this would be tiresome and expensive and sooner or later someone would figure out what you were up to and not grant you a visa (this is much easier to pull off if you're from a privileged country and can travel without first obtaining a visa).


What can make them suspect that I am using it to reside, if I am moving to a different country every 3 months? I mean people go on world tours. There are thousands of blogs from travelers from all over the world bragging about their nomadic lives and how they can live and work from anywhere. Also, technically I will be moving from country to country and that way I am not really residing anywhere specific. No? (That I am from a 3rd world country, could be one reason they would suspect, yes)


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## Bevdeforges

> What can make them suspect that I am using it to reside, if I am moving to a different country every 3 months? I mean people go on world tours. There are thousands of blogs from travelers from all over the world bragging about their nomadic lives and how they can live and work from anywhere. Also, technically I will be moving from country to country and that way I am not really residing anywhere specific. No? (That I am from a 3rd world country, could be one reason they would suspect, yes)


There are rules to determine your "tax residency" and (of course) they are a little bit different for each country. Sure, you can move yourself from country to country, but in some cases your tax residency is determined by where you keep the bulk of your worldly goods, or where you have most of your financial and other administrative ties. The nomad life isn't as "carefree" as some would like to believe.



> No, with the investment visa you get a PR in a month and a citizenship in an year. Its the same with USA's EB5 visa where you make a $500k investment (and you'll receive whole of this amount back in 3-5 years) and get a green card within the first year. That's what I've read online.


A green card is not citizenship - just "permanent residency." You would still have to reside in the US for something like 5 years before you could take citizenship. (And just remember that, as a US PR or citizen, all your worldwide income would then be subject to US taxation, more or less for life.)

The visa and naturalization rules of the various countries are written to serve that country's needs and fears, not to help those in other countries escape what they don't like "back home."
Cheers,
Bev


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## ALKB

finding said:


> No, with the investment visa you get a PR in a month and a citizenship in an year. Its the same with USA's EB5 visa where you make a $500k investment (and you'll receive whole of this amount back in 3-5 years) and get a green card within the first year. That's what I've read online.


Do you have a link for that? I was actually just recently looking into Canadian investment programmes for my brother-in-law and I am sure he'd jump on that if it's really that easy. Thanks! 



finding said:


> What can make them suspect that I am using it to reside, if I am moving to a different country every 3 months? I mean people go on world tours. There are thousands of blogs from travelers from all over the world bragging about their nomadic lives and how they can live and work from anywhere. Also, technically I will be moving from country to country and that way I am not really residing anywhere specific. No? (That I am from a 3rd world country, could be one reason they would suspect, yes)


Every time you apply for a tourist visa, you have to state why you want to visit and give reasonable assurance that you will leave at the end of your 'visit'. If you apply for a new visa twice a year, doubts will come up how you keep your business afloat without working remotely while on a tourist visa.

All visa applications for the Schengen area are entered into a common database, so unless you move from country to country outside Schengen, your 'visits' will flag up pretty quickly.

As an aside - moving every three months sounds beyond tedious. How is that better than living in India with minimal cost?


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## 1342698

Is there an update on your situation? I am exactly in the same boat. The Mumbai consulate treat you like garbage.


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## charizard

finding said:


> I contacted them, they sent me a job seeker visa application form even when I specified them that I want the freelancer one.


Were you able to figure out what's the correct visa application? I am in the same place as you were.

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.


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