# Property problem



## vinomagic (Nov 3, 2011)

We bought our house & Garden with everything marked correctly on the escritura at the Ghestoria-- importantly , the Southern Border ( 27 metres from the house ) is marked by the fence between the two properties . 6 months later the property company we bought the house from came a ripped down the fence and said the border should have been 2 metres from the house and they wanted to build a wall and a new house in our garden. We denounced them and so far have spent a lot on legal costs to try to move forward, the Judge in the 2 courts hearings to date ( we appealed against the first judgement and were approved by the bar to have the case heard again -- it was the same judge !! ) have said this is not criminal - We must go to civil court against the big developer . 

Does this mean that from now on, at every sale in a Notary's office , after the notary has asked both parties (1) The seller understands exactly what they are selling and (2) The buyer understands what they are buying ----- before going to the signing of the Escritura .. After the signing, the Government must now advise notary's to tell both parties, that if in 6 months time either side wants to claim extra land back, which goes against the signed contract , this is not considered illegal and the problem will have to fought out and paid for in civil court .. 

On top of all of the , the defense put up by the property company lawyers, is that they did not read the draft contac ( which they e-mail to our lawyer ) and they did not read the Escritua before signing ( presumably they did not hear theNotary reading out the Escritura in Spanish & English either !! ) 

Has anybody else experienced similar circumstances


----------



## Beachcomber (May 10, 2009)

Have you checked your property with Catastro:

https://www1.sedecatastro.gob.es/OVCFrames.aspx?TIPO=CONSULTA

did you check it at the time of purchase?

Is this newly segregated land? Are you sure you are the owner of a properly segregated plot or are you part owner of a much larger plot which has not been legally segregated?

The escritura will shown how many square meters of land you should have. Does this correspond to the Catastro?

If you do not wish to be specific can you give the general area in which the property is located?


----------



## vinomagic (Nov 3, 2011)

Yes we did check the Cadastre . This showed the garden included but at the time did show more square metres than were listed on the Escritura . This has now been adjusted at the Cadastre office . 

We had a lawyer check out everything before buying . They and everyone else here in Ibiza say that it is all wrong - do not worry ,. you are not in the wrong - the escritura clearly says we bought up to the southern fence . etc etc .. I would like to think there is no chance that we will lose our garden -- more important is the legal costs and time which could run into years -- during which time we cannot build a swimming pool, or extend the house so our families can come over on holiday -- this was why we moved here and bought this house --- Our life is on hold .. Why !! All my friends and their friends etc etc who have visited cannot believe it and swear they will never buy in Spain despite what Jose Blance says ! This is not the way to try to turn the construction and property market around ..
I want Spains industry and economic situation to move forward not backwards ..


----------



## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

I recently bought a property that had shown the wrong square metres in the deeds but my solicitor picked it up (the house had been bought and sold several times with the wrong area) and of course I would not sign until the correct area had been added and registered with the land registry. The person I was buying from wanted me to pay for the legal work to be done to re register the correct details but of course I told him no way.


----------



## vinomagic (Nov 3, 2011)

The land registry shows the same square metres as on the escritura . The old Cadastra showed the property as having extra sq metres of scrap land to the west side which we did not think was included or we do not want. Our only concern when buying was that the property included the lovely stepped garden + the great view accross the garden. All the auto watering & electric secutiy lights are fed from the house ( been like that for years and years ). This is why the escritura is so clear in saying "the dividing line between their new development and the property they sold us was the Southern Fence " ( there is only one ) -- This is the fence they tore down 6 months after selling to us , presumably try to get rid of any evidence if we were to fight in court . . 

We paid for a house with a 600 sq metre back garden and great view . They sold and signed this sale and accepted our money which was valued because it included the garden.. They then threatened to build the wall 2 metres from the back of the house !! so putting it another way , if they had tried to sell this house with this new wall in place I think it would have halved the value because with no garden , no view, less privacy (if they built next door the other side of the wall ) Nobody would have bought the house ....... If you look up the description of fraud it says " Misrepresenting the facts for financial gain " this should be an intentional act .. If it was not and they say it was a big mistake because they did not read the pre contract or Escritura -- then they must owe us for all our legal costs , worry , deprivatation of our planned family life etc ... It would be nice to think someone in the government or a judge would agree .. It seems not, our lawyer just says -if it goes to Civil it could be 30K and with them appealing to drag it out it could take 5 years .... Great ! It would be nice if someone could tell me what we have done wrong .




MaidenScotland said:


> I recently bought a property that had shown the wrong square metres in the deeds but my solicitor picked it up (the house had been bought and sold several times with the wrong area) and of course I would not sign until the correct area had been added and registered with the land registry. The person I was buying from wanted me to pay for the legal work to be done to re register the correct details but of course I told him no way.


----------



## rifleman (Jun 24, 2011)

chillchair said:


> Yes we did check the Cadastre . This showed the garden included but at the time did show more square metres than were listed on the Escritura . This has now been adjusted at the Cadastre office .
> 
> We had a lawyer check out everything before buying . They and everyone else here in Ibiza say that it is all wrong - do not worry ,. you are not in the wrong - the escritura clearly says we bought up to the southern fence . etc etc .. I would like to think there is no chance that we will lose our garden -- more important is the legal costs and time which could run into years -- during which time we cannot build a swimming pool, or extend the house so our families can come over on holiday -- this was why we moved here and bought this house --- Our life is on hold .. Why !! All my friends and their friends etc etc who have visited cannot believe it and swear they will never buy in Spain despite what Jose Blance says ! This is not the way to try to turn the construction and property market around ..
> I want Spains industry and economic situation to move forward not backwards ..


All I can say is that boundary disputes happen everywhere, including the UK. And wherever they occur they are hugely expensive and time consuming. Often nobody is at fault.


----------



## vinomagic (Nov 3, 2011)

I understand that there are Boundary disputes all over the place and in the UK . This normally means a fence, a metre or so out of line . Slightly unusual when the dispute is about the majority of the garden you bought, this being half the total area bought -- legally , through a lawyer, in front of a notary - all done in line with the government guidelines on how to buy in Spain . If one buys and one sells , both signing the agreed borders by the law, I don't understand the comment of --- Often nobody is at fault.........Someone must be at fault !! ...... or do I live in another world ... 

Just to qualify my position . We love Spain, thats why we moved here, to spend our money here and embrace the culture . We am not on an anti Spain mission. We just want to be able to get on with the life we anticipated we would have and have the right to have here . 





rifleman said:


> All I can say is that boundary disputes happen everywhere, including the UK. And wherever they occur they are hugely expensive and time consuming. Often nobody is at fault.


----------



## rifleman (Jun 24, 2011)

I appreciate that this is an upsetting issue for you, but I said that with most boundary disputes nobody has done anything wrong because I act as an expert in such disputes so I know that is so.
Disagreements normally arise about where boundaries lie because of the way we traditionally record boundaries.

However, I was making the point to reassure you that as a lay person you took as much care as you could and whilst it it little comfort I hoped to convince you that these problems are common outside of Spain too.

My apologies if I upset you, that was not my intention.


----------



## vinomagic (Nov 3, 2011)

I appreciate your comments and time . Thank you ...




rifleman said:


> I appreciate that this is an upsetting issue for you, but I said that with most boundary disputes nobody has done anything wrong because I act as an expert in such disputes so I know that is so.
> Disagreements normally arise about where boundaries lie because of the way we traditionally record boundaries.
> 
> However, I was making the point to reassure you that as a lay person you took as much care as you could and whilst it it little comfort I hoped to convince you that these problems are common outside of Spain too.
> ...


----------



## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

rifleman said:


> I appreciate that this is an upsetting issue for you, but I said that with most boundary disputes nobody has done anything wrong because I act as an expert in such disputes so I know that is so.
> Disagreements normally arise about where boundaries lie because of the way we traditionally record boundaries.


Rifleman while that may be true it is also the case that in the UK the legal system tends to be available and law abiding. Further the poster infers that there was one notary, common in Spain but not so in the UK. Who's side is the notary on?

Spain is also a country where breaking the law when transferring property is commonplace. (see recent thread 'Black money')

So I think comparing the two is not useful.

Chillchair from your post I can believe this is criminally/greed motivated. But sadly you can only hang in there and fight as best you can. Good luck and do keep us up to date. If nothing else you will help many others


----------



## Beachcomber (May 10, 2009)

There is only ever one notary involved in a property transaction and he is not on anyone's side.


----------



## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Beachcomber said:


> There is only ever one notary involved in a property transaction and he is not on anyone's side.


Are you sure about that


----------



## vinomagic (Nov 3, 2011)

I have returned to the notary to explain the action of the seller ( 6 months after we bought ) - she was horrified and said , you own the land up to the southern fence including your garden, exactly as specified in the escritura . I believe the Notary acted absolutely correctly and was there on behalf of the government to make sure both parties were absolutely clear about what they were signing . We will keep you advised on the story .. for your information Homes from Hell on ITV have all the information on file - the Telegraph are also aware of the case , as is Michael Cashman the MEP who is very active in such situations . 


nigele2 said:


> Rifleman while that may be true it is also the case that in the UK the legal system tends to be available and law abiding. Further the poster infers that there was one notary, common in Spain but not so in the UK. Who's side is the notary on?
> 
> Spain is also a country where breaking the law when transferring property is commonplace. (see recent thread 'Black money')
> 
> ...


----------



## Beachcomber (May 10, 2009)

I reiterate that one, and only one, notary is involved in a property transaction. Each side may have their own lawyer but both parties sign before one notary. If you still don't believe me Google for functions of a Spanish notary.

Some interesting facts about notaries and the services they provide can be found here:

European Commission - European Judicial Network - Legal professions - Spain.


----------



## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Beachcomber said:


> I reiterate that one, and only one, notary is involved in a property transaction. Each side may have their own lawyer but both parties sign before one notary. If you still don't believe me Google for functions of a Spanish notary.
> 
> Some interesting facts about notaries and the services they provide can be found here:
> 
> European Commission - European Judicial Network - Legal professions - Spain.


Beachcomber certainly believe you. What I am questioning is the bias of the notary. But as Chillchair is happy with her notary and this appears a simple case of theft perhaps this is not for here.

The main thing is that the warnings are clear and obvious to would be buyers. 


.


----------



## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Would it be correct to assume that the fence that has been torn down borders land that they wish to build on but that the fence was put up solely to divide your house from the other land ? 
If so then the fence is yours & you should make a denuncia to that effect to the police. If the fence is shown as the border in the position where it was on the catastral then it cannot legally be moved without the consent & signatures of all parties involved. Meaning that both you & the party who owns the other side of the fence would have to sign to agree top the re-positioning.
I can't understand why your lawyer hasn't made a denuncia on your behalf , or suggested it, if they believe that the boundary fence is in the correct place. 
I don't know about Ibiza , but here on building land in the countryside any property has to be a minimum of 15 m fom any boundary to include outbuidings, pools & garages.

It might be an idea to get the lawyer to speak to the notary & then inform the other party that the fence wants to be put back up , all costs that you have encountered paid for & compensation for the aggravation. 
Attack is the best form of defence.


----------



## vinomagic (Nov 3, 2011)

The fence they tore down which had metal poles concreted into the ground , had been there for many years and was on the line of the cadastral at the time we bought . Somehow since the problem started, the cadastral has changed and shows the fence 2 metres from the back of our house . Selecting this fence as the dividing border made pefect sense to everyone, this being the reason our lawyer wrote this fact clearly in the escritura. We did denounce them after they tore it down on 2 counts (1) for criminal damage to our property (2) possible case of fraud . Luckily there was 4 days between the first visit when their lawyer said what they were going to do and the action of tearing down the fence . In this time , on the advice of our lawyer, we had a notary come up and photographs taken of the fence with him included - these were notarised for future court use . 

The court hearings I refer to before are set up for the courts to decide if this is a criminal case or a civil case . so far the judge has ruled civil !!! 

The council planners said I needed a license to put the fence back up BUT they would not issue one until the final judgement which could be years . I went to the local mayor who had previously suggested I put it up and told him for our own security I was going to put it back up ...which I have done .

I think any claims for compensation at this stage would go nowhere . This case actually would be a prime example for the Housing Mininster to get behind -- push it through court - pay the compensation and publicise the fact that -- The Spanish government is now taking action against any developer who's actions are wrong and may jeopardise the future of the construction and property market by inviting negative media coverage throughout europe . 

Thank you for your comments and interest. 






gus-lopez said:


> Would it be correct to assume that the fence that has been torn down borders land that they wish to build on but that the fence was put up solely to divide your house from the other land ?
> If so then the fence is yours & you should make a denuncia to that effect to the police. If the fence is shown as the border in the position where it was on the catastral then it cannot legally be moved without the consent & signatures of all parties involved. Meaning that both you & the party who owns the other side of the fence would have to sign to agree top the re-positioning.
> I can't understand why your lawyer hasn't made a denuncia on your behalf , or suggested it, if they believe that the boundary fence is in the correct place.
> I don't know about Ibiza , but here on building land in the countryside any property has to be a minimum of 15 m fom any boundary to include outbuidings, pools & garages.
> ...


----------



## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

I'd look ,or ask the lawyer to look, at how the catastro has been changed from when you bought & now as it would have required your signature as the property owner on one side. You have to pay a fee to move a boundary so there will be a paper trail.


----------



## vinomagic (Nov 3, 2011)

I will do just that. I have not taken enough attention of this point with all the other bits going on .. Thank you .






gus-lopez said:


> I'd look ,or ask the lawyer to look, at how the catastro has been changed from when you bought & now as it would have required your signature as the property owner on one side. You have to pay a fee to move a boundary so there will be a paper trail.


----------



## Portugal-man (Sep 8, 2011)

You were lucky your solicitor picked up on it before you bought if you did get into a boundary dispute or someone bought the land next to you it could have been messy. There's a show in the UK called Homes from Hell very eye opening.


----------

