# unemployment up by nearly 60,000 since last month



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

El Ministerio de Trabajo publica el paro de diciembre / Economía / Elboletin.com


& the googletranslate version if you don't read Spanish

Google Translate


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Well, I'm not going to post a 'like' because we don't like - you know what I mean. But I hope that anyone feeling the 'New Year's blues let's move to Spain' syndrome reads and pays heed.
Thanks for posting that depressing news....but people do need to know what it's like here.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Well, I'm not going to post a 'like' because we don't like - you know what I mean. But I hope that anyone feeling the 'New Year's blues let's move to Spain' syndrome reads and pays heed.
> Thanks for posting that depressing news....but people do need to know what it's like here.


no, we don't like do we 

I've added it to the 'economic situation' sticky too


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2012)

I've always wondered just how much _funcionarios interinos_ (for example, substitute teachers) contribute to the unemployment figures. I know a lot of teachers who were on leave go back at Christmas time, sending the subs to _paro._ I wonder how much that inflates the number.


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## Sirtravelot (Jul 20, 2011)

Damn it Spain, get it together!


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## el_cartero (Jan 23, 2011)

perhaps if they made it slightly easier and cheaper to fill there millions of empty properties there could be a small tax say 40 euros per month per house. Which could be the wages of the sumone to be the security / pool cleaner / spanish teacher / of the area 

every 15 houses could have one person employed or anyone that needs the job 

everyones a winner


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2012)

el_cartero said:


> perhaps if they made it slightly easier and cheaper to fill there millions of empty properties there could be a small tax say 40 euros per month per house. Which could be the wages of the sumone to be the security / pool cleaner / spanish teacher / of the area
> 
> every 15 houses could have one person employed or anyone that needs the job
> 
> everyones a winner


They've decreased house buying tax to 4% and increased the IBI (or that "small tax" you're talking about) on the most expensive 50% of homes in towns.


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## el_cartero (Jan 23, 2011)

halydia said:


> They've decreased house buying tax to 4% and increased the IBI (or that "small tax" you're talking about) on the most expensive 50% of homes in towns.


i see well they would perhaps need to make there gas + electricity a bit cheaper since they companys make billions anyway then theres savings for all then stick the employment tax on everyone on top of the IBI tax....

make car insurance cheaper etc ... im sure the gov would rather have this employment thing sorted out first + they will make money back from the tax they get from them working hmm

just a uneducated idea though just that theres so many empty places..

i dont know what is best just somethign to attract people to rent or buy and get these places full + finish building the half built placeS! but dont build any more!

+ a small essentials shop for every area with 200 houses or more! perhaps using the empty places for the business - simply fresh milk bread eggs (possibly even on order which shop person could nip out to deliver if hes quick) for eldery etc but not cigs and booz - that will still atrract them to the bars etc which need the business


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

el_cartero said:


> perhaps if they made it slightly easier and cheaper to fill there millions of empty properties there could be a small tax say 40 euros per month per house. Which could be the wages of the sumone to be the security / pool cleaner / spanish teacher / of the area
> 
> every 15 houses could have one person employed or anyone that needs the job
> 
> everyones a winner


Have you thought that one through, I wonder?
Firstly, how would the project be administered?
Secondly, how wouold you gain consent of property owners? (Spain is a democracy)
Thirdly, most of the empty properties could well be not houses but apartments which are already looked after by their Community Councils
Fourthly, a tax of 40% would be insufficient to cover the required minimum wage plus social security contributions of even a small fraction of the millions currently unemployed.....you could add roughly one-third of wage paid for overheads (tax, soc.sec.)
Lastly....many of those empty properties are in the hands of the lenders i.e. repossessed. So who should pay the tax?
Back to the drawing board...


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## Lucie123 (Dec 7, 2011)

They could make heck knows how much if certain areas started charging ppl to park in towns etc.then u have all the traffic wardens and all the office staff dealing with the paper work. not that im complaining but when were were in nerja you have cars parked everywhere yet no street charges. Think of the money and jobs they could create. dont they ever think of doing that even if the charge is minimal. just seems strange when the uk is so obsessed with charging you for everything


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Lucie123 said:


> They could make heck knows how much if certain areas started charging ppl to park in towns etc.then u have all the traffic wardens and all the office staff dealing with the paper work. not that im complaining but when were were in nerja you have cars parked everywhere yet no street charges. Think of the money and jobs they could create. dont they ever think of doing that even if the charge is minimal. just seems strange when the uk is so obsessed with charging you for everything


we have parking meters all over the place & the policía local do the 'traffic warden' stuff


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2012)

It's the same up here in the cities.


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## Lucie123 (Dec 7, 2011)

I guess it depends on the areas then as when we went into granada provence they charged for street parking. you woukd just think everyone would do it as its a money and job creater. i guess the uk is good at creating layers of public sector jobs and money making charges.


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2012)

Well, one has to add up the cost of the parking meters, the salaries of the parking wardens, upkeep of the meters, and other general costs of implementation as well as the cost of possible legal issues when x-number of people don't pay their fines. Then, subtract what you'll earn from parking fees and figure if it's worth it. I think it all depends on the size and the popularity of the town. For example, if I understand right, the town where I live has fees on the beachfront parking *just* in the summer. Why? The population multiplies by some obscene number - something like 9 or 10!


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## Lucie123 (Dec 7, 2011)

Yeah thats true.i guess its all diff as parking charges in the uk are ridiculous and they will book you for anything. So its a nice little money maker for councils i think if they charged similar prices in spain/europe they would have a good ole riot on their hands!


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2012)

What do you call ridiculous?


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## Lucie123 (Dec 7, 2011)

In my city they charge upto £6 for 2 hrs street parking. public transport for a journey of 5 miles into the centre cost about thst aswell. city centre shopping in the uk is dieing cause ppl are going to out of town shopping centres where u can park for free


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

In most of the coastal towns round here there is a scheme in the summer months for the unemployed to man the seafront carparks and collect a euro per car. I'm not sure how much of it they get to keep, but it's a fair amount I think. The charge isn't enough to deter visitors but it keeps people in work. I think it's a great idea.


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## Lucie123 (Dec 7, 2011)

Yeah thats a great idea


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2012)

Alcalaina said:


> In most of the coastal towns round here there is a scheme in the summer months for the unemployed to man the seafront carparks and collect a euro per car. I'm not sure how much of it they get to keep, but it's a fair amount I think. The charge isn't enough to deter visitors but it keeps people in work. I think it's a great idea.


How can you tell the legal carpark men from the _gorillas_?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

el_cartero said:


> i see well they would perhaps need to make there gas + electricity a bit cheaper since they companys make billions anyway then theres savings for all then stick the employment tax on everyone on top of the IBI tax....
> 
> make car insurance cheaper etc ... im sure the gov would rather have this employment thing sorted out first + they will make money back from the tax they get from them working hmm
> 
> ...


But how can you force the electricity companies to lower their tariffs? This is a democracy, not a dictatorship. How could car insurance be cheaper? Would you prefer a lower standard of service for a 'cheaper' premium? What do you mean by 'employment tax'? If you raise payroll taxes (I assume that's what you mean) it would deter employers from hiring staff.
The reason there are so many unfinished constructions in some areas is that the developers/contractors ran out of money. So who will foot the bill for finishing them, do you think?
One of the factors that led to Spain's current problems was the construction boom. Supply simply outstripped demand. Most of the Northern European immigrants who came to Spain were not wealthy. They didn't contribute hugely to the fleeting prosperity.
The small shop idea is a no-go. There are small shops everywhere going under or at best finding it a daily struggle to make ends meet.
As for not taxing tobacco and alcohol...those are the very areas that need to be taxed more heavily. As in the UK, smokers and drinkers are a drain on the health services. They should and do quite rightly pay for their habits, which in the case of smoking and excessive drinking are anti-social and unpleasant. There is also a no-smoking ban in public places which includes bars.
Spain has a huge budget deficit - this year it must be cut by 38 billion euros to comply with the set target of 4.4% of GDP for the year 2012. 
Ideas like yours are not really feasible....but keep thinking..
But you need to know more about how things work in Spain...in some ways similar, in others very different from the UK.


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> But how can you force the electricity companies to lower their tariffs? This is a democracy, not a dictatorship.


Electricity tariffs have been frozen this year, thus there is a certain level of government intervention in the electric market.


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## country boy (Mar 10, 2010)

Not quite true...Electricity prices have been "held" for the moment...wait 'till March!


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2012)

That's what I meant by frozen. Frustrating that it's only until March! I wasn't aware of that fact.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

halydia said:


> How can you tell the legal carpark men from the _gorillas_?


They have official yellow waistcoats, photo ID and a ticket machine. I suppose they could be fakes but if they've gone to all that trouble they have earned their euro IMO.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

country boy said:


> Not quite true...Electricity prices have been "held" for the moment...wait 'till March!


Yes, I saw that. IVA (VAT) will probably go up then too.
El Gobierno no descarta una subida del IVA en marzo | Política | EL PAÍS


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2012)

Alcalaina said:


> They have official yellow waistcoats, photo ID and a ticket machine. I suppose they could be fakes but if they've gone to all that trouble they have earned their euro IMO.


Very true. Especially if they've got a ticket machine. 
The _gorillas_ freaked me out when we were in Alicante.


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2012)

Alcalaina said:


> Yes, I saw that. IVA (VAT) will probably go up then too.
> El Gobierno no descarta una subida del IVA en marzo | Política | EL PAÍS


Good lord. I'm going to take advantage of _rebajas_ early then.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Alcalaina said:


> Yes, I saw that. IVA (VAT) will probably go up then too.
> El Gobierno no descarta una subida del IVA en marzo | Política | EL PAÍS


I think you may be in for a shock - IVA may go up this Thursday (5th Jan)!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

country boy said:


> Not quite true...Electricity prices have been "held" for the moment...wait 'till March!


That can only be done by mutual negotiation and agreement. You can't 'force' private companies to do anything in a 'free' country.
You can put pressure on them to hold down prices or as Gordon Brown -and Mrs Thatcher - impose 'windfall taxes' on excessive profits.
But no Government in a democratic society can or should have the power to compel pricing policy.


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## country boy (Mar 10, 2010)

Totally agree with that Mary, just making the point that they ( power Co's) were persuaded to postpone the normal January adjustment and wait 'till March. However, judging by the performance of our new government in the last few days regarding previous election promises, the situation is "fluid" to say the least


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> That can only be done by mutual negotiation and agreement. You can't 'force' private companies to do anything in a 'free' country.
> You can put pressure on them to hold down prices or as Gordon Brown -and Mrs Thatcher - impose 'windfall taxes' on excessive profits.
> But no Government in a democratic society can or should have the power to compel pricing policy.


Unfortunately that's what has been going on for longer than I've lived here ! 
The price of electricity has been set by the governments , at a below cost rate , & is the reason for the increases over the last few years , as the government , who make up the difference , try to get the price to the market rate.
So far the government owes the 3 main electricity suppliers 22billion euros which they are struggling to work out how to pay.
You have the same situation with the small butano cylinders which the gov. also sets the price on. Just note the disparity between the cost of the small cyl. & the larger ones , which aren't price controlled. Repsol lost 120 million selling small cyls. last year !
The electricity price can be raised in january, march, june & october.


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2012)

Gus, since you seem to understand this:
Since the market has now been liberalized, does the government still control *all* tariffs or just the _TUR_?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

halydia said:


> Gus, since you seem to understand this:
> Since the market has now been liberalized, does the government still control *all* tariffs or just the _TUR_?


A liberalised market is a market free of government control. This may seem like nit-picking but it isn't.
In a free market or even a social market economy, government can only persuade, pressurise via tax threats or concessions, via public pressure.
Even the UK erstwhile nationalised industries were run by independent Boards.
Think about it......can the US Government control the pricing p[olicy of Microsoft o0r any other huge and important corporation?
It is because the power of government is so limited compared to the power and importance of our utilities and communications systems that I believe they should be under government ownership if not governmement management.
I would extend that principle to the banking and some parts of the financial system but I guess that's where many of you would disagree with me.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> A liberalised market is a market free of government control. This may seem like nit-picking but it isn't.
> In a free market or even a social market economy, government can only persuade, pressurise via tax threats or concessions, via public pressure.
> Even the UK erstwhile nationalised industries were run by independent Boards.
> Think about it......can the US Government control the pricing p[olicy of Microsoft o0r any other huge and important corporation?
> ...


And health & social care, medical research, education and public transport. All of which are or are on the way to becoming commodities whose prices are governed by the market,


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> A liberalised market is a market free of government control. This may seem like nit-picking but it isn't.
> In a free market or even a social market economy, government can only persuade, pressurise via tax threats or concessions, via public pressure.
> Even the UK erstwhile nationalised industries were run by independent Boards.
> Think about it......can the US Government control the pricing p[olicy of Microsoft o0r any other huge and important corporation?
> ...


So using your linguistic logic, it *must* be the _TUR_. I'm interested to hear Gus' reply.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

halydia said:


> So using your linguistic logic, it *must* be the _TUR_. I'm interested to hear Gus' reply.


It's not _linguistic logic..._what is that by the way???? It's fact. 
Show me a law passed by the Cortes dictating prices and I'll be persuaded.
The Spanish power companies are not in public ownership...sadly. They are private corporations.
In the UK these now privaitised utilty companies have regulators that act as interfaces between corporation, public and government. They can bring pressure to bear on level of pricing, dividend payment and so on.
Maybe that's the case in Spain, I don't know.
But the difference between a free market liberalised economy and a social market economy isn't a matter of linguistics, as Americans know better than we Europeans.


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> It's not _linguistic logic..._what is that by the way???? It's fact.


You're right, I'm sorry. I should not post before having a cup of coffee, but I had so much coffee yesterday I was shaking. Oops. 




> Show me a law passed by the Cortes dictating prices and I'll be persuaded.
> The Spanish power companies are not in public ownership...sadly. They are private corporations.
> In the UK these now privaitised utilty companies have regulators that act as interfaces between corporation, public and government. They can bring pressure to bear on level of pricing, dividend payment and so on.
> Maybe that's the case in Spain, I don't know.
> But the difference between a free market liberalised economy and a social market economy isn't a matter of linguistics, as Americans know better than we Europeans.


Here's an article from El Pais. I'm trying to find the law. 
El Gobierno aprueba la mayor subida del recibo de la luz en 28 años · ELPAÍS.com


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> And health & social care, medical research, education and public transport. All of which are or are on the way to becoming commodities whose prices are governed by the market,


My view which I've stated before is that ownership and delivery can and imo should be separated. There is room for a certain amount of competition in tendering. 
The old statist/local authority provider model is cumbersome, inefficient and not subject to 'quality control' in a way that franchising should be.
I would establish extremely high minimum service level delivery agreement standards,built-in equal opportunity and non-discrimination employment clauses as the norm with trades union recognition and employee representation on Managing Boards..
Franchises should be set for a sufficiently lengthy period but subject to revocation if standards are not met.
The best privately run companies are more efficient than the best publicly run utilities were - partly because of the way they were set up in the post-war period. In the coal industry, to take one notorious example, productivity actually declined under public ownership.
The key to it all is effective management and 'restrained' competition with clearly set aims and standards which must be pro bono publicum..


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

halydia said:


> You're right, I'm sorry. I should not post before having a cup of coffee, but I had so much coffee yesterday I was shaking. Oops.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Halydia...I can't get out of bed before my shot from my Saeco machine which weighs, grinds the beans and delivers a heart-jolting dose of caffeine.
I must say I would be surprised if there is such a law.
But then even under Franco elements of Catholic social philosophy was enshrined in renting and employment law.
So I'm ready to be proved wrong....and astonished!!


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2012)

_Resolución de 30 de diciembre de 2011, de la Dirección General de Política Energética y Minas, por la que se establece el coste de producción de energía eléctrica y las tarifas de último recurso a aplicar en el periodo comprendido entre el 23 y el 31 de diciembre de 2011, ambos inclusive y en el primer trimestre de 2012._
(Establishes the cost of electricity production and the _TUR_ for the first trimester of 2012)
BOE.es: Consultas. Documento
(First trimester of 2011)
BOE.es: Consultas. Documento

(Establishes the _TUR_ of Natural Gas)
BOE.es: Consultas. Documento


Even though it's the "Last Resort" price, it applies to 20.16 million users, according to the article I cited from El Pais. If I understand and remember properly, the market was "liberalized" back in 2008. Now, you can see that with 20,160,000 users in Spain using the _TUR_ that's still an enormous amount of people using the government regulated rates.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

halydia said:


> _Resolución de 30 de diciembre de 2011, de la Dirección General de Política Energética y Minas, por la que se establece el coste de producción de energía eléctrica y las tarifas de último recurso a aplicar en el periodo comprendido entre el 23 y el 31 de diciembre de 2011, ambos inclusive y en el primer trimestre de 2012._
> (Establishes the cost of electricity production and the _TUR_ for the first trimester of 2012)
> BOE.es: Consultas. Documento
> (First trimester of 2011)
> ...



So...is that a condition imposed for a limited period when the companies were privatised?
When the Council I was a member of back in the UK sold its social housing stock to a management buy-out charitable company we (the Labour Group) insisted on the inclusion of certain conditions such as a five-year rent freeze.
Is this situation with the power companies similar?


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2012)

Here's a few websites explaining the situation in Spain: 
Faqs - Tarifa de último recurso - Energía - Mº de Industria, Energía y Turismo
La liberación del sistema regulado al sistema liberalizado - Tarifa de último recurso - Energía - Mº de Industria, Energía y Turismo
El 1 de julio entrarán en vigor las Tarifas de Último Recurso (TUR) de electricidad


To summarize (information from Endesa): 
_La Tarifa de Último Recurso (TUR) es una nueva tarifa eléctrica, fijada por el Gobierno, que ha entrado en vigor el 1 de julio. Se trata de una tarifa con un precio único, por lo que las condiciones son las mismas para todos los consumidores, independientes de la empresa Comercializadora con la que tengan contratada la electricidad.

Para poder acogerte a la TUR, tienes que tener contratada una potencia inferior o igual a 10 kW, que es la que tienen la mayoría de los hogares. Esta es la única condición que debes cumplir._

...with that, it's time to have a coffee and get to work. Vacation is almost over


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

halydia said:


> To summarize (information from Endesa):
> _La Tarifa de Último Recurso (TUR) es una nueva tarifa eléctrica, fijada por el Gobierno, que ha entrado en vigor el 1 de julio. Se trata de una tarifa con un precio único, por lo que las condiciones son las mismas para todos los consumidores, independientes de la empresa Comercializadora con la que tengan contratada la electricidad.
> 
> Para poder acogerte a la TUR, tienes que tener contratada una potencia inferior o igual a 10 kW, que es la que tienen la mayoría de los hogares. Esta es la única condición que debes cumplir._


Interesting that the TUR now applies to _potencia_ up to 10 kW - it used to be 3.3. Maybe some of us are eligible!!

EDIT - doh, I've just realised we are already getting it. That's why I pay so much less for electricity on my 4.6 kW contract than Mary does on her 13 kW one.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Interesting that the TUR now applies to _potencia_ up to 10 kW - it used to be 3.3. Maybe some of us are eligible!!
> 
> EDIT - doh, I've just realised we are already getting it. That's why I pay so much less for electricity on my 4.6 kW contract than Mary does on her 13 kW one.



Pending getting our potencia lowered I have taken steps to drastically reduce our bills....I discovered we were heating two huge cylinders 24/7....the timer is faulty.
So now we heat one, off-peak, for sufficient time for two people to shower etc.
I'm also following advice given here and using the swimming-pool pump sparingly.
Interesting to see next month's bill...


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Haldyia, sorry for the delay in replying been out & about all day.
My understanding is that the government many years ago came to an arrangement with the supply companies to prevent the price of electricity becoming unaffordable by fixing the price of electricity & the government paying the difference. In addition they subsidise it to use spanish coal. ( Which is dearer ) This has continued for donkeys years & when the boom times came , instead of raising it little by little , it continued the same way with the price rises barely covering the increase, if at all. When they finally started to attempt to get it back to the market rate it was too late & the 'crisis' arrived. 
The electricity suppliers are owed by the government 22 billion euros !

Spain Business Brief - Monday January 2 2012
oops! sorry it's 24 billion ! Paragraph 4.

In here paragraph 5 explains Zappys blunder.
Spain Power Debt Infects Enel With Sovereign Bond Market Woes: Euro Credit - Bloomberg
He should have let the market price rise instead of subsidising it !

There is a similar situation with the small gas cylinders, butanos. 
As you can see from this link the price of the large cylinder ( industrial ) , which is what a lot of C/H systems use is 4 x the price of the small cylinder , yet only has 3 x the gas amount.

Repsol: resultados, dividendos, informacion corporativa, Antonio Brufau y directivos - repsol.com


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## Guest (Jan 4, 2012)

gus-lopez said:


> Haldyia, sorry for the delay in replying been out & about all day.
> My understanding is that the government many years ago came to an arrangement with the supply companies to prevent the price of electricity becoming unaffordable by fixing the price of electricity & the government paying the difference. In addition they subsidise it to use spanish coal. ( Which is dearer ) This has continued for donkeys years & when the boom times came , instead of raising it little by little , it continued the same way with the price rises barely covering the increase, if at all. When they finally started to attempt to get it back to the market rate it was too late & the 'crisis' arrived.
> The electricity suppliers are owed by the government 22 billion euros !
> 
> ...


Thanks Gus!!


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Some parts in here throw some more light on the situation.
Iberdrola, S.A. -- Company History

Especially parts in merger & consolidation 1992-96 & Deregulation and International Investment: 1996-2002 showing the government reducing electricity prices.


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