# Worker 'liquidación'



## MangoTango (Feb 8, 2020)

I am preparing to sell my house and move into an apartment. I have a gardener who is great. A really good person. I would trust him with my life. He has the keys to my house. I 'think' he has been my gardener for something like 4-6 years - I honestly don't remember. I have been in this house for a little less than 9 years and I had several gardeners before this one. So let's say he's been here 5 years.

For the last year or less he has been coming 2 days per week. I pay him 600 pesos per visit. Before last October he came 1 day a week. He works for someone else the other 4 days per week.

He knows my house is sold. Today I asked him - how much money am I going to owe you when I have no more work for you. We went back and forth a little - oh whatever you are comfortable with etc. Finally he said - between 50,000 and 60,000 pesos. I'll be honest - that seemed like a lot of money to me.

A few months ago I asked a Mexican lawyer / friend a similar question. She said - 3 months pay + aquinaldo (Christmas bonus - 1/2 month).

600 X 2 = 1200 / week.
1200 X 4 = 4800 / month
4800 X 3 = 14400 + 2400 = 16,800 pesos

My lawyer friend said - "prima de antigüedad" only applies if the worker has been employed for more than 10 years!!

Today I asked another smart friend what she thought. She was driving and couldn't really talk (we will talk later) but she said 9 months. I don't know how she arrived at that. That would be 43,200 pesos.

What do you think ?


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## MangoTango (Feb 8, 2020)

This afternoon I spoke to the man for whom my gardener works the other 4 days of the week and told him what I have told you here. He also is a very nice (Mexican) guy. His initial reaction was - he is taking you for a ride. He called back a few minutes later and said - maybe he is right with his amount. We talked about it some more. He wasn't sure if my gardener was entitled to a 20% annual bonus. I told him what the lawyer said about 10 years. He said - tell him you will give him 25,000 pesos. I just drove my gardener to the bus - his car is in the shop. Earlier today I had asked him to send me his bank information so I could wire him the money. Now he said - I think I would rather have cash. I said - I'm sorry I don't like to have that much money in the house AND on Friday we are going to talk some more. I need to talk to a few people to determine what is 'justo'.


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## MangoTango (Feb 8, 2020)

Well I have received two more opinions. A friend has thrown out the figure 29,600 pesos. I have to reverse engineer that number to see how it was arrived at. A lawyer I know says - but you are not firing him - you don't really owe him anything. It is customary to pay 1.5 months salary in these cases. That's 7,200 pesos. He also said - he only works for you a few (8) days a month. 

I just want to do the right/legal thing.


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## Firstlast (Jan 11, 2021)

Legality!?!? You had no contract. Essentially he worked on demand. . "No good deed goes unpunished" Xmas bonus? Why? If you want to be generous, give him two months of wages (600 x 2 = 1200/wk) (8wks x 1200 = 9600) round it to 10,000... and if he drinks alcohol..a bottle of good tequila or scotch/whiskey. It's evident you're on a guilt trip.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

I saw a lawyer about our gardener and he got vacations and xmas bonus about 15 days pay for each 3 months plus roughly one month for every year he worked.
The notario will make sure the help is paid according to the rules before closing if they do the same thing in Morelos than in Jalisco so the notario will go ver the stuff anyways. Have the gardiner sign for what ever you give him an specify if it is vacations, bonus or severance. You do owe him the money because you are letting him go without cause. and please skip the tequila or scotch..


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

the way you calculate a day s pay is take the 1200 a weeks and divide it by 7 which comes to 171.. multiply that by 15 days for bonus. 15x 171 or 2 565 pesos
you owe him vacations if you have not paid him vacations
then 3 months is 30 days 30 x171 x3 or 15 319 pesos 
that would be the minimum and throw 30days for every year he worked... or 5130 per year..
The lawyer told me that after the 3 months it is a question of negotiation..
Talk to a labor lawyer If the man is nice he will settle for whatever but if he sees the labor board good luck to you.
You should know his starting date as well. The notario will ask.

You can also have the notario tell you what to pay to liquidate him and the notario will have him sign off.


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## Firstlast (Jan 11, 2021)

Wow!! I'm just amazed how the simple task of terminating casual employment is turning into a federal/state issue. Can't wait to see the results of this. In my former occupation, a purchasing professional, a saying.."never let the lawyers get involved" Not to say that the numerous suggestions are not valid. But, why complicate a simple financial transaction with "quadratic equations" and a complex decision tree. The first GROSS error, was asking the gardner how much he wanted. His 60,000 peso reply is the best of a free market response. Lol. As an aside, I wonder how much this individual was overcharged in fees for the sale of her property.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

There are labor laws and labor boards that is why it is a good idea to be fair .As I said the notario will make sure the finiquito was given and you need to have the employee sign off on that he received. Instead of asking how much he wanted.. that is a first.. you should ask him when he started or better have him sign off every time you pay him or her, it prevents a whole lot of headaches later on. I know several people who have been taken to the cleaners by the labor board so it is why it is a good idea to have an agreement before starting and have the employee sign off.
If you are in friendly terms with the employee it should not be a big deal to have him sign the finiquito..


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## MangoTango (Feb 8, 2020)

(Somebody has been added to my ignore list).

I have received 5 opinions on this topic from friends etc. Three are from lawyer's who I know or friends know. 
Lawyer #1 says - pay him 20 weeks X 600 pesos = 12,000 pesos.
Lawyer #2 says - pay him 3 months + aquinaldo = 16,800 pesos.
Lawyer #3 says - Pay him 1.5 months = 7,200 pesos - you don't owe him anything.

Two opinions are from friends.
Friend #1 says - offer him 25,000 pesos.
Friend #2 says - offer him 29,600 pesos.

Friend #1 (and his wife) are the people my gardener works 4 days/week for. He and I had a long conversation about life this morning. At one point he suggested I stop in the "Junta Local de Conciliacion y Arbitraje", show them the math and ask them what is appropriate. That sounded like a good idea. We ended our call and the phone rang again 5 minutes later. My gardener approached the wife and mentioned our conversation yesterday. He said he had asked for 60,000 pesos. She said something like - that is a lot of money. Would you maybe be happy with 30,000 pesos. He replied - that would probably be ok. I don't want to end the relationship badly, he said.


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## MangoTango (Feb 8, 2020)

citlali said:


> There are labor laws and labor boards that is why it is a good idea to be fair .As I said the notario will make sure the finiquito was given and you need to have the employee sign off on that he received. Instead of asking how much he wanted.. that is a first.. you should ask him when he started or better have him sign off every time you pay him or her, it prevents a whole lot of headaches later on. I know several people who have been taken to the cleaners by the labor board so it is why it is a good idea to have an agreement before starting and have the employee sign off.
> If you are in friendly terms with the employee it should not be a big deal to have him sign the finiquito..


Citali - my notary is not going to provide the service you mention. I have signed a contract to sell my house. I have already paid the notary for handling the sale. At the closing in September (hopefully) I will pay the realtors, pay my taxes due, pay my lawyer and hand over the keys.

Yes - my wife was very religious in having everyone who we paid anything to sign a receipt. Unfortunately I was a little lax in that regard and even shredded the tons of paper my wife collected over nearly 10 years.

Friend #2 (see above) will give me the form she had a lawyer prepare when she let 2 employees go. My gardener will not have any issue signing it. 

And - I'm glad I asked my gardener what his expectations were. For me that is better than having a confrontation down the road.


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## eastwind (Jun 18, 2016)

Well there you go, he doesn't want to end badly, you don't want to end badly, and he doesn't want his wife telling him he's greedy. 30k will more or less make everyone happy. It's a lot, but you're rich, pay it and don't sweat it, an incindental cost of moving. And it's an investment against future needs he can help with, such as his friend with the truck (who might suddenly be unavailable if you offended the gardner).

Your range is down to 12000-30000, if you overpay him by $900 for years of good reliable work it's not much in the grand scheme of things.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

why would you pay the notary for handling the sale? Isn t this part of the buyer´s cost? When I bought both houses both time the notario made sure the property was debt free and that there was a finiquito done for each past employee.
If you came to an agreement it is great, that is the most important thing.. Both paries agree , sign off and that is the end of the deal..That could not end better, you say the man was a great worker and you had a good relationship with him so all ends well.


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## MangoTango (Feb 8, 2020)

Yes I realized I made a mistake in my post but I could not edit it so I just let it be. I really wanted to choose the notary and the buyer had no problem with the one I wanted. The buyers were responsible for paying the notary.


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## Firstlast (Jan 11, 2021)

eastwind said:


> Well there you go, he doesn't want to end badly, you don't want to end badly, and he doesn't want his wife telling him he's greedy. 30k will more or less make everyone happy. It's a lot, but you're rich, pay it and don't sweat it, an incindental cost of moving. And it's an investment against future needs he can help with, such as his friend with the truck (who might suddenly be unavailable if you offended the gardner).
> 
> Your range is down to 12000-30000, if you overpay him by $900 for years of good reliable work it's not much in the grand scheme of things.


I love it. You determine some one is "Rich" .What do you base that on. That is a response I expect from someone of limited means. 🤑


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## mr_manny (Nov 22, 2013)

I would like to thank the OP for starting this thread.
My wife and I have been living in Mexico for almost 7 years, and have never heard of "Prima de Antigüedad".

What are the basic guidelines for this policy?
We have a cleaning lady that only works twice a month for almost a year (our vacation home).
We did gave her a Christmas bonus last year...I was under the impression it was voluntary. 

Currently I do most of the house maintenance, and yard work.
Although my back noticed the 2 mornings of adjusting Tejas, due to a few rain drops that got into the house (wife wasn't pleased) 

Regarding the comment about being rich.
I think it's more about what's fair.

I loaned a primo hermano 30,000 pesos for necessary house maintenance.
He passed the agreed upon pay-back date, and starting making comments about actually owing me less, because of favors he did for me in the past.
It was a shock, as we have always had an awesome relationship and now he was trying to take advantage. 
It took an additional 2years to recover the money, all thanks to my tia pulling his orejas.

Our relationship has suffered, but I hope over time It may become closer to what it was before.


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## Firstlast (Jan 11, 2021)

mr_manny said:


> I would like to thank the OP for starting this thread.
> My wife and I have been living in Mexico for almost 7 years, and have never heard of "Prima de Antigüedad".
> 
> What are the basic guidelines for this policy?
> ...


Doncha' know, when you loan money to MXs they are sincere about paying back. Once they have the funds there is no incentive to pay back.


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## maesonna (Jun 10, 2008)

I would suggest asking an accountant for advice about the prima de antigüedad. An accountant who deals with employers’ obligations and workers’ rights should know the correct way to calculate it.


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## ojosazules11 (Nov 3, 2013)

Firstlast said:


> Doncha' know, when you loan money to MXs they are sincere about paying back. Once they have the funds there is no incentive to pay back.


Over generalize and stereotype much? I find this statement really offensive. Having married into a Mexican family, I have lent money to both family and Mexican friends. I pretty much know ahead of time which “loans” are actually gifts. These are kept to small amounts I can afford to lose and not given repetitively. But the vast majority have been paid back with no prompting on my part.


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## Firstlast (Jan 11, 2021)

No!!! I speak from my experience and the experience of others here in MX. Only one family, my adopted family, pays back consistently, even if I attempt to make it a gift. Sure, to try and negate my comment you chose your immediate family. 
You are naive.


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## eastwind (Jun 18, 2016)

I thought it was unfair to single out Mexicans, I find the same behavior in all people. If a given person is always in need of a loan, it can be a result of low financial security or serial financial irresponsibility, but either way, that makes them less likely to be able to repay as well. People are proud, and don't want to ask for a gift, so they ask for a loan. One should generally assume they're looking for a gift.

There's an old saying, "Neither a borrower nor a lender be". 

I don't loan tools either, they can be just as hard to get back.


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## ojosazules11 (Nov 3, 2013)

Firstlast said:


> No!!! I speak from my experience and the experience of others here in MX. Only one family, my adopted family, pays back consistently, even if I attempt to make it a gift. Sure, to try and negate my comment you chose your immediate family.
> You are naive.


Not naive, and absolutely not only family. I also don’t lend indiscriminately or automatically if asked. I actually have pretty good radar for who is likely to “forget” they owe me, as well as those who are unlikely to be financially able to pay me back even though they have the best of intentions. That influences if and how much I am willing to lend (give). I just find it really offensive to paint an entire nationality of people as not being good for their debts. You are speaking from your experience, and I am speaking from mine.


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## Takingiteasy (Aug 12, 2021)

Wow, another surprise about living in mx. If someone works for you for a number of years even part time you have to give them a severance package? Some of the numbers mentioned sounded more like a golden parachute. Does it only kick in after 10 years or would it apply to someone who worked just a year or two?

And you have to give a christmas bonus and paid vacations? Who knew? Some posts speak of going back and having to give more if not paid enough. I wonder if a written contract would be of benefit before hiring any independent worker? It seems you have to save proof that you paid them and how much.

Is moving away really firing without cause? The guy could help the next owner, maybe arranging something would help? If the guaranteed severance and paid vacations start after a year, then that would be a good time to decide if you want to keep the person on or be hit with a greedy demand later. Someone unreliable it might be best to let go before they gain too many rights over you. 

Or hire through an agency, I believe the laws are different for that and you might not be liable for a big payoff if you didn't need their services any longer. But someone good you will want to give raises and bonuses, you just want to know what in total you will have to give them later. You don't want to be hit with an expensive surprise


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

The rule of thumb is that if you hire a service you do not owe anything but if you hire an individual you have to pay prorated bonus and severance and the minimum severance is 3 months . I have not heard about the prima de antiguidad but I may have paid it when I let go the gardener after 20 years.. I had a labor lawyer do the finiquito to keep it simple and be safe.
Actually layers are cheap and I use one when I let go someone.. In the last 20 years I have let go 2 people so I do not do it often. It is a very good idea to have a signed agreement when you start using someone so there is no surprise at the end.
I do not lend money unless it is to an employee and I work out a repayment plan and deduct money every week so the repayment has always happened.
I have lent money to artisans to get material or tools they need but then they know I can invite them to events where they will sell and also forget to invite them so I have never had any problems getting paid back.
I also once in a while give money to people who are in a jam because of health problems.. I do not expect to get paid back .. I usually get paid back or get service in exchange but I only do it with people I know very well. There are plenty of people who will not pay back but then it probably is the same everywhere.


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## Takingiteasy (Aug 12, 2021)

"The rule of thumb is that if you hire a service you do not owe anything but if you hire an individual you have to pay prorated bonus and severance and the minimum severance is 3 months"

And that applies to those who work for you part time or occasionally as well as full time? There must be some time period before it takes effect because someone could work for you for a week or a month or two and you tell them you have no more work for them and have to pay 3 months severance? It probably depends on the length of time they have worked for you, longer periods getting more pay. There may be a minimum time period before they get anything, a period of months or a year perhaps?

This is something people should know or they may get hit with an unpleasant surprise like MangoTango did. Wouldn't the worker have to have some proof of how long they worked? In the states, people are hired as contractors and do not get unemployment benefits. That may be possible too in mx. It may be better to talk to the lawyer before hiring.


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## AnneLM (Aug 16, 2016)

I am dumbfounded that some who have lived in Mexico far longer than I have never heard of Mexican labor law regarding aguinaldo, vacation pay, and severance for employees who have worked 31 days or more. The amounts can be prorated for part time or partial year work. It can get complicated but you can find numerous calculators online or you can pay a lawyer as others have suggested. I realize that these laws are not uniformly observed or enforced, but my husband's US based employer was quite clear that we were expected to follow them. Yes, it can amount to a rather large sum.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Takingiteasy.. Yes you ca hire someone for 3 months, n problem , put it in writing that the person is an independent contractor and will only work for 3 months.. , if you like the person you can make another agreement at the end of that period. Yes you owe prorated alguinado, vacations and also 3 months severance for employees full time and part time ...You are lucky if they do not demand IMSS payment as well. You probably can get away in some States doing nothing but in other States , no.. all depends on the customs and if the employees and or lawyers think you have money.. 
You can have surprises... I do everything via a lawyer ., lawyers are cheap and it is worth the peace of mind.
I checked the finiquito of the gardener who was old and ha worked 17 years and yes he received the prima de antiguidad.. Good think I did it above board, the man is now senile and he son claims we fired him and did not pay him.. Good thing I have the proof hthe son does not know what he is talking about or is lying.


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## Takingiteasy (Aug 12, 2021)

It sounds like the son is greedy and looking for another payday. Thank goodness you have the documents. So you are saying even a contracted employee must get all those benefits? A lawyer may be able to draw up an agreement that states he/she is running their own business and the pay plus bonuses are in lieu of severance and antiguedad etc. It probably would not stand up if I tried writing it but a lawyer should know the tricks. 

The idea is not to cheat anyone but to make clear the terms of working and pay. If they understand that they will not get the big severance (unless you decide to be generous) then they can look at the pay and decide to take it or not. This is a factor especially if you may be moving back to the states one day and do not want to have a sticky situation drag on or be forced to pay an unreasonable amount. If you have paid them fairly and even a bit generously, why should they get 60,000 at the end as was asked of MT?

I also wonder if a long time person might claim it was 5 years instead of 4 or 3? It would be dishonest if deliberate but people's memories can be funny. Probably is a good idea to have some paperwork they sign which has that data. You don't want someone swearing on their mothers grave it was one or two years earlier and they sound sincere. If you have that document then they realize they remembered wrongly and there should be no dispute.


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## AnneLM (Aug 16, 2016)

A contract is not required for less than 20 hours a week. Contract or no contract, you are supposed to comply with Mexican labor law. Our maid worked fewer than 20 hours, so we did not have a contract. But from the day she started with us we had her sign in a notebook, showing the date and amount, every time we paid her. We also had her sign a sheet showing our calculation for aguinaldo and vacation pay, and severance when we departed for the US after 4 years. That protected her as well as us.


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## LeeSEA (Oct 27, 2021)

During the lockdown of the Pandemic, I was in Colombia. When able, I hired a housekeeper. She ended up working for me for 10 months, coming 1 day every 2 weeks. When I got ready to leave, by law, I owed her a severance package. I had no idea how to do this. One cousin did the calculation and came up with a number that was 75% of the original payments, which I suspected was wrong. Another cousin had a sample form with calculator, and took the information and sent me back the form and a payment that was about 3x one of her visits. That was reasonable to me, and my housekeeper was satisfied and signed the document. 

This is evidently common outside the US. And as mentioned above, best to be "generous" because we don't fare well if the employee takes us to arbitration. It serves to cover their unpaid social security, healthcare, and taxes -- and the employee is motivated to take your offer so they don't have to pay the government their unpaid social security, healthcare and taxes.

I tried to understand the formula used, but it was impossibly complicated. I am sure there is a correct way of calculating this, but in reality, since no one plans to pay their taxes, is highly negotiable.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

These posts point out why it is not a good idea to feel generous and pay over market because it comes back to bite you in the butt when you have to pay severance. Better be generous on the alguinado then on the hourly wages...and yes you should have signed receipts for everything.. It sure comes handy when you want to know the starting date. if vacations were paid etc..


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## MangoTango (Feb 8, 2020)

Better yet - I am looking forward to moving into my new apartment where I will not have a gardener and I may/may not have a cleaning woman. I will have to pay a monthly maintenance fee of 5,000 pesos/month to the community. But I will not have to spend the better part of 6 hours a week watering the garden (in addition to running the sprinkler system) AND paying a gardener 4,800 pesos/month ++++ nor will have have to clean the pool for another 3 hours a week (in addition to using the rather expensive pool robot).

I'm hoping that if I travel and have someone come in and feed the cats for 10 minutes every other day they will not anticipate severance.

Edit : And as an aside - last night I had a WhatsApp texting session with my lawyer who this year handled two wills for me as well as a new escritura. He was asking if I could loan him 170,000 pesos to buy a car. I politely told him I'm sorry.


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