# Spain's north-south divide



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

We all know that unemployment in Spain is around 20% at the moment but I didn't realise there was quite such a regional imbalance.

It is much worse in the southern half of the country: over 28% in Andalucia and Las Canarias, 24% in Murcia, 23% in Valencia.

So if you are looking for work head for Pais Vasco (Basque country) where it is only 9.98%, or Navarra (12.5%). Elsewhere the average is around 15%.

Las diferencias regionales se amplían · ELPAÍS.com


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> We all know that unemployment in Spain is around 20% at the moment but I didn't realise there was quite such a regional imbalance.
> 
> It is much worse in the southern half of the country: over 28% in Andalucia and Las Canarias, 24% in Murcia, 23% in Valencia.
> 
> ...


My mother-in-law and I were commenting on this subject yesterday afternoon when we couldn't find a table anywhere to have lunch - Crisis, what crisis?! 

It was fascinating the other day when I caught the train that used to be my morning commute. Buildings that were being built two years ago are now fully occupied. Others are being built. All of this in Cantabria, hardly mentioned by the País article. 

One sector where many have commented that they're noting the crisis is in weddings. Both the restaurants and the church have commented that numbers are down (even here in País Vasco!) Things don't seem too bad here. The only unemployed person in our group of friends is a recent engineering graduate who is looking for work all over Spain. An older neighbor just finally found a job - IN VALENCIA.


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## Caz.I (Mar 21, 2009)

halydia said:


> My mother-in-law and I were commenting on this subject yesterday afternoon when we couldn't find a table anywhere to have lunch - Crisis, what crisis?!
> 
> It was fascinating the other day when I caught the train that used to be my morning commute. Buildings that were being built two years ago are now fully occupied. Others are being built. All of this in Cantabria, hardly mentioned by the País article.
> 
> One sector where many have commented that they're noting the crisis is in weddings. Both the restaurants and the church have commented that numbers are down (even here in País Vasco!) Things don't seem too bad here. The only unemployed person in our group of friends is a recent engineering graduate who is looking for work all over Spain. An older neighbor just finally found a job - IN VALENCIA.


Well I think there definitely is a north-south divide. Certainly Andalucia is supposed to be the worst affected area for unemployment. Around here it is very noticeable. In the park where I take my son to play, it used to only be the mothers with their children that you would see during working hours. Now, there are a lot more fathers around too, since they are not working anymore. Plus you often see a lot more fathers at the school gates, taking the kids to school or picking them up. Of course, women are affected too but I think male unemployment is higher. My son's father was made redundant on Friday and I know of quite a few others who have either lost their jobs recently, or are losing business or closing down if they are self-employed. It feels like the effects of the crisis are really taking hold now.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Caz.I said:


> Well I think there definitely is a north-south divide. Certainly Andalucia is supposed to be the worst affected area for unemployment. Around here it is very noticeable. In the park where I take my son to play, it used to only be the mothers with their children that you would see during working hours. Now, there are a lot more fathers around too, since they are not working anymore. Plus you often see a lot more fathers at the school gates, taking the kids to school or picking them up. Of course, women are affected too but I think male unemployment is higher. My son's father was made redundant on Friday and I know of quite a few others who have either lost their jobs recently, or are losing business or closing down if they are self-employed. *It feels like the effects of the crisis are really taking hold now*.


I think you're right - and what makes it even worse is that the figures in the article were for the third quarter, July-September, when lots of temporary workers are taken on for the holiday season. Also the public investment "Plan E" programme, which gave us all nice new pavements and kept thousands of unemployed construction workers off the dole for a while, has now come to an end.

Though I guess every cloud has a silver lining, if it means that more fathers are looking after their kids! This would have been a cultural no-no in Spain even as recently 20 years ago.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

And with rising unemployment comes more crime....
A couple of weeks ago there was a shootout when the wages van arrived at our local Carrefour. People were locked in the store and those outside dived for cover, just like in a Western..
I have also heard reports of shoppers being mugged at gunpoint in our local Mercadona car park, but feel this may be exaggeration.
I wonder if job-seeking wannabe immigrants will take any notice of the alarming figure for Andalucia?


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I wonder if job-seeking wannabe immigrants will take any notice of the alarming figure for Andalucia?


Well, that's kind of why I posted it ... and for all the helpful souls on this forum, like you, who answer their posts!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

posted by Caz. I.


> It feels like the effects of the crisis are really taking hold now


Absolutely. I feel the crisis more this year than Nov last year. And look at the UK. Didn't they announce the crisis was over and done with in the UK?? I thought it sounded like a case of counting chickens before the eggs had been laid let alone hatched!
Posted by Alcalaina


> Also the public investment "Plan E" programme, which gave us all nice new pavements and kept thousands of unemployed construction workers off the dole for a while, has now come to an end.


Which is exactly why it was so criticised in the first place. A lot of money was invested in that scheme and no, or at the best few, real jobs were created. Had that money been channeled into businesses which would in their turn create employment it might have been worth it. As it was, it kept people off the unemployment lists (and not off the dole as it barely exists) temporarily when it could have given people permanent jobs.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Which is exactly why it was so criticised in the first place. A lot of money was invested in that scheme and no, or at the best few, real jobs were created. Had that money been channeled into businesses which would in their turn create employment it might have been worth it. As it was, it kept people off the unemployment lists (and not off the dole as it barely exists) temporarily when it could have given people permanent jobs.


The problem is that once you "channel money into businesses" - by which I assume you mean grants or tax breaks - you don't have any control over what happens to it. Those businesses won't necessarily use it to create permanent employment. They could just as easily use it to increase rewards to shareholders, or to automate manual processes and put people out of work, something which happened in the UK on a huge scale in the '70s.

I think Plan E was a brave if somewhat naive attempt at a Keynesian solution and had the recession not been so deep or longlasting it might have done the trick.

I've just read Rajoy expressing his admiration of El Camerón's economic policy for Britain. (in English here: http://www.elpais.com/misc/herald/herald.pdf) He manages to avoid actually saying anything about what the PP might do if and when they come to power. When asked whether he thinks Britain's spending cuts will increase growth and produce more jobs, he replied "yes, because Cameron believes in what he is doing, and that creates confidence." 

If only belief were all it took!!!


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> The problem is that once you "channel money into businesses" - by which I assume you mean grants or tax breaks - you don't have any control over what happens to it.


But you do if the government works for the people. You create an environment which lends itself to job creation being profitable. Being in government is not an easy job but there is no excuse, except greed of the few, for the spanish situation. 

It worries me that people refer to the crisis in Spain thinking of the global crisis. I believe that the global crisis is an irrelevance when compared to the Spanish crisis


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> put people out of work, something which happened in the UK on a huge scale in the '70s.


Those damn labour governments huh?:ranger:


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> The problem is that once you "channel money into businesses" - by which I assume you mean grants or tax breaks - you don't have any control over what happens to it. Those businesses won't necessarily use it to create permanent employment. They could just as easily use it to increase rewards to shareholders, or to automate manual processes and put people out of work, something which happened in the UK on a huge scale in the '70s.
> 
> I think Plan E was a brave if somewhat naive attempt at a Keynesian solution and had the recession not been so deep or longlasting it might have done the trick.
> 
> ...


I agree with you about Plan E but not about the channeling of money into businesses.
Small and medium-sized businesses don't often have shareholders and tax breaks and grants are a stimulus to employment in the SME sector.
It wasn't the increase in dividends that put people out of work and although huge job losses were caused by technological advances in many sectors, that was inevitable. If firms hadn't taken advantage of new technology they would quickly have gone out of business.
The mistake made in the 70s and 80s was lack of investment and training in new industries and technologies. The days of huge numbers of employees (usually men) working together in large factories or plants was over. Germany and Japan began to knock us out of our place as a major exporting nation.
Trades Union leaders were more interested in burying capitalism than working to make everyone more prosperous - although they could wield great power they were not prepared to use it for constructive purposes.
Into the vacuum stepped Mrs. T.
The finger of blame for the Thatcher years should imo be pointed at left-wing Union leaders and the 'Gang of Four', Shirley Williams, David Owen and co..
Between them they sowed the seeds of our present economic malaise.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> I agree with you about Plan E but not about the channeling of money into businesses.
> Small and medium-sized businesses don't often have shareholders and tax breaks and grants are a stimulus to employment in the SME sector.
> It wasn't the increase in dividends that put people out of work and although huge job losses were caused by technological advances in many sectors, that was inevitable. If firms hadn't taken advantage of new technology they would quickly have gone out of business.
> The mistake made in the 70s and 80s was lack of investment and training in new industries and technologies. The days of huge numbers of employees (usually men) working together in large factories or plants was over. Germany and Japan began to knock us out of our place as a major exporting nation.
> ...


Yes, I was thinking of a stimulus for the PYMEs as they are known here (Small and medium sized companies) as that is the way business has been expanding for years now. And not necessarily tax breaks and grants, but project planning, mentoring, equipment, organisation. Think about the help the people on the TV programme "The Apprentice" get. If you gave that kind of help to people who have real talent and within a real time frame I think a lot could be done. Yes it's difficult to create permanent employment and to control, but we are talking about the government for goodness sakes. That's what they are paid to do.There are supposed to a few experts in there - and there's money, there's always money.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yes, I was thinking of a stimulus for the PYMEs as they are known here (Small and medium sized companies) as that is the way business has been expanding for years now. And not necessarily tax breaks and grants, but project planning, mentoring, equipment, organisation. Think about the help the people on the TV programme "The Apprentice" get. If you gave that kind of help to people who have real talent and within a real time frame I think a lot could be done. Yes it's difficult to create permanent employment and to control, but we are talking about the government for goodness sakes. That's what they are paid to do.There are supposed to a few experts in there - and there's money, there's always money.



SMEs form over 60% of the UK economy, don't know what % of the Spanish economy but assume it may be higher?
Tax breaks to provide incentives to encourage employers to hire new workers i.e. reduce or waive payroll taxes/NI contributions, changing employment law to make it easier for companies to shed employees in an economic downturn - Union representatives are entitled to 'see the books' to determine whether the Company is genuinely experiencing distress - grants to help investment in new equipment and training: all these could greatly assist small businesses, which are the backbone of any economy.
It is a myth that all employers think about is increasing dividends to shareholders. 
And let us not forget: shareholders in major companies are pension funds and other investment vehicles through which many of us non-workers receive our incomes.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yes, I was thinking of a stimulus for the PYMEs as they are known here (Small and medium sized companies) as that is the way business has been expanding for years now. And not necessarily tax breaks and grants, but project planning, mentoring, equipment, organisation. Think about the help the people on the TV programme "The Apprentice" get. If you gave that kind of help to people who have real talent and within a real time frame I think a lot could be done. Yes it's difficult to create permanent employment and to control, but we are talking about the government for goodness sakes. That's what they are paid to do.There are supposed to a few experts in there - and there's money, there's always money.



SMEs form over 60% of the UK economy, don't know what % of the Spanish economy but assume it may be higher?
Tax breaks to provide incentives to encourage employers to hire new workers i.e. reduce or waive payroll taxes/NI contributions, changing employment law to make it easier for companies to shed employees in an economic downturn - Union representatives are entitled to 'see the books' to determine whether the Company is genuinely experiencing distress - grants to help investment in new equipment and training: all these could greatly assist small businesses, which are the backbone of any economy.
It is a myth that all employers think about is increasing dividends to shareholders. 
And let us not forget: shareholders in major companies are pension funds and other investment vehicles through which many of us non-workers receive our incomes.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> SMEs form over 60% of the UK economy, don't know what % of the Spanish economy but assume it may be higher?
> Tax breaks to provide incentives to encourage employers to hire new workers i.e. reduce or waive payroll taxes/NI contributions, changing employment law to make it easier for companies to shed employees in an economic downturn - Union representatives are entitled to 'see the books' to determine whether the Company is genuinely experiencing distress - grants to help investment in new equipment and training: all these could greatly assist small businesses, which are the backbone of any economy.
> It is a myth that all employers think about is increasing dividends to shareholders.
> And let us not forget: shareholders in major companies are pension funds and other investment vehicles through which many of us non-workers receive our incomes.


I see your son hasn't been round to fix the computer yet! Either that or you're suffering from multi posting syndrome!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

nigele2 said:


> But you do if the government works for the people. You create an environment which lends itself to job creation being profitable. Being in government is not an easy job but there is no excuse, except greed of the few, for the spanish situation.
> 
> It worries me that people refer to the crisis in Spain thinking of the global crisis. I believe that the global crisis is an irrelevance when compared to the Spanish crisis


A government that works for the people!? What a great idea! :flypig:


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> SMEs form over 60% of the UK economy, don't know what % of the Spanish economy but assume it may be higher?
> Tax breaks to provide incentives to encourage employers to hire new workers i.e. reduce or waive payroll taxes/NI contributions, changing employment law to make it easier for companies to shed employees in an economic downturn - Union representatives are entitled to 'see the books' to determine whether the Company is genuinely experiencing distress - grants to help investment in new equipment and training: all these could greatly assist small businesses, which are the backbone of any economy.
> It is a myth that all employers think about is increasing dividends to shareholders.
> And let us not forget: shareholders in major companies are pension funds and other investment vehicles through which many of us non-workers receive our incomes.


I totally agree that small businesses are the way forward and by the sound of it they have to leap far too many hurdles in Spain. All of your suggestions are very sensible and yes, that is what ZP should have done, in retrospect.

But now everything is focussed on paying back the deficit as quickly as possible, so there is no money to spare. I still think these deficits are irrelevant, but we have to dance to the tune of the IMF.

Paying shareholders might not be all company directors think about but profitability is the prime directive for any commercial enterprise, rather than sustainability or need. If they don't increase profitability, they go under, full stop. They can't stand still. Which is why the provision of essential resources (healthcare, housing, power, water, public transport, medical research and a whole lot more) is too important to be left entirely to the private sector.


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