# EEA family permit for Germany



## teuchter

Was wondering what the German equivalent for the EEA FP is (for the non-EU spouse of a UKC intending to move to Germany to live/work)?

teuchter


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## ALKB

teuchter said:


> Was wondering what the German equivalent for the EEA FP is (for the non-EU spouse of a UKC intending to move to Germany to live/work)?
> 
> teuchter



Initially you´d just apply for a short term visa (free for EEA family members). The validity varies, mostly I heard that it coincides with the validity of the mandatory health insurance you need to buy for the visa application.

Once in Germany, you go to the local Ausländerbehörde and fill in the 'Aufenthaltsanzeige für EU-Bürger und deren Familienangehörige' (notice of residence for EU citizens and their family members) after about a month you´ll get the biometric 'Aufenthaltskarte' valid for 5 years. After the five years you can apply for an indefinite permit (you need to meet additional requirements for that) or you can extend your EEA family permit.


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## teuchter

ALKB said:


> Initially you´d just apply for a short term visa (free for EEA family members). The validity varies, mostly I heard that it coincides with the validity of the mandatory health insurance you need to buy for the visa application.
> 
> Once in Germany, you go to the local Ausländerbehörde and fill in the 'Aufenthaltsanzeige für EU-Bürger und deren Familienangehörige' (notice of residence for EU citizens and their family members) after about a month you´ll get the biometric 'Aufenthaltskarte' valid for 5 years. After the five years you can apply for an indefinite permit (you need to meet additional requirements for that) or you can extend your EEA family permit.


Thanks ALKB - certainly sounds straightforward enough. I had gone through the website of the 'Auswärtiges Amt', but couldn't find anything pertaining to non-EEA spouses of EU citizens.

teuchter


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## ALKB

teuchter said:


> Thanks ALKB - certainly sounds straightforward enough. I had gone through the website of the 'Auswärtiges Amt', but couldn't find anything pertaining to non-EEA spouses of EU citizens.
> 
> teuchter



It is rather hidden; I saw 'In case of a family member of an EEA national...' all the way down in the guidance for visa applications on German Embassy web sites. 

The EEA family member goes for a short term visa/entry clearance first, it´s the Ausländerbehörde that has jurisdiction over the actual permit.

Just like with most European countries, the EEA family permit is relatively easy to obtain and the process more or less painless unlike if one of the couple is German 

The only problems I heard about relate to clueless staff at the Ausländerbehörde, especially in smaller towns and areas where not many expats live or rather, not many EEA expats. 

A friend of mine had tremendous problems (not regarding an EEA family permit, though) because her Ausländerbehörde was only used to dealing with asylum seekers and Russian Germans, who were basically just planted in their district. We ended up talking to the head of department three times.

I am sure that quite a lot of case workers in the more provincial parts of Germany never had to deal with an EEA application to date.


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## laciekacie

Hi All, thanks for the useful info above. Just an additional question:
My boyfriend of three years (we've lived together for two in the UK, U.S., and Ukraine) is moving to Berlin to work. He is a UK citizen and I'm a US citizen. Must we marry to qualify for the EEA family permit or is there some kind of domestic partnership requirement we can fulfill? Thanks!
LK


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## ALKB

laciekacie said:


> Hi All, thanks for the useful info above. Just an additional question:
> My boyfriend of three years (we've lived together for two in the UK, U.S., and Ukraine) is moving to Berlin to work. He is a UK citizen and I'm a US citizen. Must we marry to qualify for the EEA family permit or is there some kind of domestic partnership requirement we can fulfill? Thanks!
> LK



I am afraid that Germany does not recognise 'durable relationships' like the UK does.

To qualify for an EEA family permit in Germany, you have to be married or in a registered life partnership in case of same sex couples.

As a rule of thumb: if you can part ways without going through something like a divorce, it does not qualify you for a visa.

If you don't want to marry for visa purposes, maybe you could qualify for a visa in your own right? Maybe as a student?


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## laciekacie

Thanks so much for clearing that up! Really too bad since we can't even qualify for an unmarried partner visa in the UK even though we've lived together for 2+ years because of the new income requirement (my boyfriend is a phd student). I would rather not marry. Perhaps since I am Jewish and originally from the former Soviet Union (I have dual citizenship with Russia), I can qualify for some sort of legal status in Germany? Will have to research this further.


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## ALKB

laciekacie said:


> Thanks so much for clearing that up! Really too bad since we can't even qualify for an unmarried partner visa in the UK even though we've lived together for 2+ years because of the new income requirement (my boyfriend is a phd student). I would rather not marry. Perhaps since I am Jewish and originally from the former Soviet Union (I have dual citizenship with Russia), I can qualify for some sort of legal status in Germany? Will have to research this further.


There at least used to be a possibility. I'll have to look up whether that is still current legislation.

Does it say 'Jewish' in your Russian passport? I think I remember that that was one of the requirements.


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## strawberries82

ALKB said:


> The validity varies, mostly I heard that it coincides with the validity of the mandatory health insurance you need to buy for the visa application.


i'm sorry i don't agree with the above,my husband applied for the short stay visa and was not asked for the medical health insurance.


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## strawberries82

when u apply as a spouse of an eu citizen then u are not supposed to hold any travel insurance/health insurance when u apply for the visa,u are supposed to be exempted from that requirement,knowing that under eu laws u are expected to have a passport,the ue passport,the marriage certificate for the spouse or birth certificate for the dependant child and maybe proof that u are going to travel to that member state.


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## strawberries82

any news regarding the visa outcome?


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## ALKB

strawberries82 said:


> i'm sorry i don't agree with the above,my husband applied for the short stay visa and was not asked for the medical health insurance.


It depends on the country you apply from. For many countries, health insurance is mandatory to be issued any kind of visa to Germany.

If you buy 2 months, the Embassy then tends to issue for two months at the most, if you buy three months insurance, they most probably give the full 90 days, provided you apply for 90 days in the first place.

What's your husband's nationality?


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## ALKB

laciekacie said:


> Thanks so much for clearing that up! Really too bad since we can't even qualify for an unmarried partner visa in the UK even though we've lived together for 2+ years because of the new income requirement (my boyfriend is a phd student). I would rather not marry. Perhaps since I am Jewish and originally from the former Soviet Union (I have dual citizenship with Russia), I can qualify for some sort of legal status in Germany? Will have to research this further.


I am afraid that it is much more difficult to qualify since a new immigration law came into effect on 1.1.2005, before that it was rather easy to immigrate from a GUS state to Germany provided that the applicant could show official paperwork stating their 'nationality' as Jewish.

If you would still want to try this now, you would have to apply from your home country basically as a refugee (which is not something too pleasant - lots of obligations and restrictions!).

Do you also have an American passport? In that case any application would be useless, as you could always go to live in America, which is deemed a secure country.


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## laciekacie

ALKB said:


> I am afraid that it is much more difficult to qualify since a new immigration law came into effect on 1.1.2005, before that it was rather easy to immigrate from a GUS state to Germany provided that the applicant could show official paperwork stating their 'nationality' as Jewish.
> 
> If you would still want to try this now, you would have to apply from your home country basically as a refugee (which is not something too pleasant - lots of obligations and restrictions!).
> 
> Do you also have an American passport? In that case any application would be useless, as you could always go to live in America, which is deemed a secure country.


Thanks so much for the info. I am a dual citizen with US citizenship as well as Russian. I have not lived in Russia since 1992. Alas, looks like all roads lead to marriage... Too bad!


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## mrsl49

strawberries82 said:


> i'm sorry i don't agree with the above,my husband applied for the short stay visa and was not asked for the medical health insurance.


HI Strawberries, I really want to get in touch with you to discuss how you and your husband moved to Germany. I am in the exact same position as you and am desperately looking for advice. I noticed the other post you ran is now closed. Is there any way you can contact me directly? thanks so much.


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## laciekacie

ALKB, thanks so much for all the helpful advice over the past few months as we try to sort through this complicated bureaucracy.
Ok, it looks like we will have to marry. We will do that now in the U.S. and move to Germany by the spring where my partner will look for employment. What does the new legislation in the UK mean for us using the EEA family permit to return to the UK?


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## ALKB

laciekacie said:


> ALKB, thanks so much for all the helpful advice over the past few months as we try to sort through this complicated bureaucracy.
> Ok, it looks like we will have to marry. We will do that now in the U.S. and move to Germany by the spring where my partner will look for employment. What does the new legislation in the UK mean for us using the EEA family permit to return to the UK?


Nobody really knows, yet, as the new rules come into effect on 1/1/2014 and it remains to be seen how "transferring one's centre of life" will be interpreted by UKBA in practical terms.

It certainly looks like they will be looking for a much longer stay in the EU country, how long nobody knows, yet. Also, they are looking at how well integrated you are - did you attempt to learn the language? Did you join a local club? Did you rent your own flat or did you just get a room in a shared house? Do you still have a residence in the UK? That kind of thing, but so far all of this is speculation in terms of how strict UKBA will be.

In any case, the new rules are geared towards stopping a quick stint in another EU country just to return to the UK. While so far people were planning on 3 to 6 months total, a minimum of 6 - 12 months SEEMS more likely.

There is a thread on this in the UK forum:

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/br...-living-uk/284442-surinder-singh-changes.html

Have you looked into a residence permit for learning the language? You could get that without marrying but would need to attend an intensive German language course for at least 18 hours per week; no evening or weekend course.


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## ALKB

laciekacie said:


> ALKB, thanks so much for all the helpful advice over the past few months as we try to sort through this complicated bureaucracy.
> Ok, it looks like we will have to marry. We will do that now in the U.S. and move to Germany by the spring where my partner will look for employment. What does the new legislation in the UK mean for us using the EEA family permit to return to the UK?


The first people have been posting their refusals when trying to use the Surinder Singh route after the new rules came into effect.

No official guidance has been published but from the refusals they seem to look for:

- Self-contained accommodation in your name with utility bills in your name.
- Length of stay - three months do no longer seem to suffice. *IF* the UK is modelling their interpretation of Surinder Singh after the Danish rules (for which there is some evidence but nothing official or definite), you might be looking at working in the EU country for a year or more before you can move back to the UK.
- Evidence that you are dealing with all aspects of your life in the EEA host country: open a bank account ASAP, not months after you arrive, get a mobile phone contract, try to exchange your UK driving license to one of your host country, etc.
- If self-employed, don't just relocate your existing UK business to another EU country but only do work for UK clients remotely. 

This is just a first impression, I am sure we will get more information, soon.


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## laciekacie

Thanks for the information. I would like to send an update on my situation and ask a few questions. My boyfriend and I married in 2014 (again, I am a U.S. citizen and he is British). Since then, I purchased an apartment in my name in Berlin and plan to move there in May. Now that it is difficult to use the Surinder Singh route, I would like to stay in Berlin but he only has three months there before he needs to be back in England to resume his PhD studies. My questions are the following:

1. What are the steps we can take for me to get right to remain? As I understood it, he needs to get an official job in Berlin.

2. Is this possible to do given that he only has three months before he needs to return to the UK?

Thanks in advance!


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## ALKB

laciekacie said:


> Thanks for the information. I would like to send an update on my situation and ask a few questions. My boyfriend and I married in 2014 (again, I am a U.S. citizen and he is British). Since then, I purchased an apartment in my name in Berlin and plan to move there in May. Now that it is difficult to use the Surinder Singh route, I would like to stay in Berlin but he only has three months there before he needs to be back in England to resume his PhD studies. My questions are the following:
> 
> 1. What are the steps we can take for me to get right to remain? As I understood it, he needs to get an official job in Berlin.
> 
> 2. Is this possible to do given that he only has three months before he needs to return to the UK?
> 
> Thanks in advance!


Good to hear from you! First of all: congratulations!

Now, what you are planning might work but you also might run into trouble.

A property does not give you any advantage in a residence permit application.

Within the first 90 days of his stay, your husband does not have to show a job, as he can exercise his treaty rights as a jobseeker, so if you manage to get all the paperwork and an appointment with the Ausländerbehörde within 90 days of your arrival, you will most likely be issued a residence card without further ado.

It will be valid for five years and you will have unrestricted access to the local job market.

The problematic bit is that your residence card depends on your husband remaining in Germany and exercising his EU treaty rights (working, etc.), if he is living and working/studying in the UK, your residence card loses the basis on which it has been issued. So, if somehow the Ausländerbehörde gets wind of your arrangement... well, let's just say it would not be good.

At the very latest you might face difficulties when your five years are up and you either apply for an indefinite permit or a further five year residence card.


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## Nononymous

I was going to say the same thing. Being married to a Brit who's living in Britain won't really get you very far with the Germans. If you can ram all the paperwork through in time and obtain your Aufenhaltserlaubnis before he leaves Berlin you'd have a good chance of staying on quasi-illegally provided nothing went wrong. (By quasi-illegally I mean your papers would appear to be in order, but you'd have obtained them on false pretenses.)


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## laciekacie

Great, thanks so much for the info. It's a difficult situation given that he is a PhD student (that's why his salary was not enough for me to qualify living in the UK). But, given that he is writing his dissertation, he can indeed be in Berlin for the majority of the year. I wonder if this makes our legal proceedings more legitimate? 

Also: do we have to prove residency together? Does he have to get a job in Berlin (i.e. bartending part time over the summer?) Must we open a bank account together? 

We may do some of these things anyway but i just would like to know which of them are necessary. Perhaps showing our U.S. marriage certificate is enough?

Thanks, all! Don't know what I'd do without this help!


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## laciekacie

So, just wanted to clarify: at the end of the five years of the Aufenthaltserlaubnis, I may face problems when asked to present that my husband has indeed been working for five years in Germany? So, the procedure is, if he does not find a job within 90 days of arriving, I have to cancel my Aufenthaltserlaubnis, right?


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## laciekacie

Also, if my husband stays in Germany for the majority of the year writing his dissertation, can he qualify as an EU citizen with free movement if he is an "Unemployed EU citizens with adequate health insurance and funding"? What would this funding be and would it guarantee me an Aufenthaltserlaubnis?


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## Nononymous

This is going to exceed my experience pretty quickly but I'll try. 

I think the suggestion was that you could apply for an Aufenhaltserlaubnis without your husband working. You've moved to Berlin together and he's looking for a job. The naughty part comes when he leaves after three months and you stay on in Germany - whether he finds a job or not isn't really the issue, it's that you're not living with him.

The fact that he's a PhD student returning to write his dissertation might make your life easier. I'm just trying to think of how. Being a student or researcher is very handy for North Americans, but if he's EU anyway I don't know if it matters. If he moves to Berlin permanently after the coursework is complete then you are once again legitimate. With adequate funds and health care he's perfectly entitled to live in Berlin as a student without any sort of work.

Another route is to be completely above-board. What are you proposing to do with yourself in Berlin? If it's feasible, you could try for a work permit or the "freelancer visa" on your own merits. (Unlike the vast majority of people on this board, you write in full, correct sentences, so I'm guessing you have close to a decade's worth of advanced education.) Combine that with marriage to a Brit and you might have a good case. Go the Ausländerbehörde and explain the whole situation - your husband must "temporarily" return to the UK or classes but will return to work on the dissertation etc. - you might find a friendly Beamter who realizes that saying no is just delaying the inevitable by a few years. 

The Berlin LABO site has pretty good lists (in English) of what documents are needed. Speaking good German will help too. I would get organized now and try to book an appointment online for as soon as possible after you arrive (bearing in mind that you need to go to the Meldestelle first, but presumably you know the drill).


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## laciekacie

Yes, we have a classic situation that shows how, in this day and age, such "stationary" laws are quite retrograde for a young, multinational, professional couple. 
I'm a researcher in public health for Yale and my job is mostly remote so I would just like to be with my husband in Europe and we chose Berlin since the UK is inaccessible because of his lack of income. He does not have to attend classes back in London so can indeed be in Berlin with me most of the year. My German is intermediate but I plan to take classes. We can both have health insurance and necessary funds (I think--not sure what funds are required).

Anyway, I would like to go a legal route so I guess my questions are:
1. how can he be in Berlin legitimately without a job? My husband does not have coursework in London. If he's going back and forth to meet with his adviser in London, how long does he have to spend in Berlin each year?

2. What funds are we required to prove if we are not employed in Berlin?

3. I don't know the drill--am quite new to all this. But I'm assuming I should just research the bureaucracy on my own rather than waste your time with basic questions!

Thanks again!


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## ALKB

laciekacie said:


> Yes, we have a classic situation that shows how, in this day and age, such "stationary" laws are quite retrograde for a young, multinational, professional couple.
> I'm a researcher in public health for Yale and my job is mostly remote so I would just like to be with my husband in Europe and we chose Berlin since the UK is inaccessible because of his lack of income. He does not have to attend classes back in London so can indeed be in Berlin with me most of the year. My German is intermediate but I plan to take classes. We can both have health insurance and necessary funds (I think--not sure what funds are required).
> 
> Anyway, I would like to go a legal route so I guess my questions are:
> 1. how can he be in Berlin legitimately without a job? My husband does not have coursework in London. If he's going back and forth to meet with his adviser in London, how long does he have to spend in Berlin each year?
> 
> 2. What funds are we required to prove if we are not employed in Berlin?
> 
> 3. I don't know the drill--am quite new to all this. But I'm assuming I should just research the bureaucracy on my own rather than waste your time with basic questions!
> 
> Thanks again!



This is all very grey-area-ish.

If your husband actually stays in Berlin with you while writing his diss, you should actually be fine. (It would help if he could work something, at least sometimes in Germany - freelance, part time, anything)

For how long would he have to return to the UK?

If, in theory, you manage to get your residence card within 90 days of arrival and he only leaves for a short amount of time, then returns to you to write his dissertation, all good.

The key point is that he should be physically present (and living with you) in Berlin. 

In order to get the residence card, you do need to register your residence together, which should not be a problem in any case since you own your own property.

At the latest after 90 days you will need health insurance and make arrangements to declare your income in Berlin - if your employer is US-based, I am not sure what that would mean for you in terms of taxes and mandatory insurances such as unemployment insurance, health insurance, care insurance and other social security payments.

After five years you can show that you as a couple are self-sufficient based on your income or your combined income if your husband has a job by then.

Now, all of this is only the legal-in-Germany part (with loads of if and buts as you can see...).

If you'd want to apply for Surinder Singh to go back to the UK, this scenario will most probably not be sufficient to get an EEA family permit and then residence card in the UK, at least not under current interpretation - who knows what will happen in the next five years!

As for laws being stationary, the EU countries are still separate countries, not states of a larger entity and I am immensely thankful for the right of free movement; everything could be so much more complicated. I still remember endless waiting and meticulous controls at every border. 

As far as I know, Americans and Canadians can move pretty freely between their countries? I might be wrong. If it is indeed the case, it would be a bit like expecting your husband to be allowed to live and work freely in Canada based on your relationship, while you are living and working in the US.


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## Nononymous

1. He is an EU national, he can live in Berlin, period. (I'm guessing a bit here as I'm not EU so don't fully know how that side of the system works.) If he's a grad student with a stipend and health insurance, even better. I don't know that there is a specific requirement for the number of days he must be in Germany versus in the UK. But he can more or less do as he pleases, worst case is he's not eligible for unemployment benefits or something like that.

2. "Sufficient" funds. There is no set amount, it's at the discretion of the Ausländerbehörde.

3. You'd be a rare exception if you actually did research before asking obvious questions! Relevant info is available online at berlin.de and the foreign ministry sites. The quick version is you have to register your address at the local Bürgeramt within two weeks of arrival; only then can you go to the Ausländerbehörde to apply for residence permits. 

4. Working remotely for your US employer is a whole 'nother kettle of fish. After 183 days you'd be considered tax resident in Germany. To do this correctly - which you might need to do if you want to use this income as a proof of having sufficient funds to support yourself - you'd need to get yourself into the German tax system. This might mean setting up as an independent contractor and billing your US employer as a consultant. Doable, but paperwork involved (you'll want to hire a Steuerberater for this). It's not quite as simple as just drawing your US paycheque and paying US taxes. 

Overall, though, if your husband has finished his coursework, I think it's easy, you can quite honestly say that he's moved permanently to Berlin, and you are joining him. If he needs to return to the UK for regular meetings with his advisor, that changes nothing.


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## beppi

Nononymous said:


> 2. "Sufficient" funds. There is no set amount, it's at the discretion of the Ausländerbehörde.


It usually means approx. EUR8000 per person per year (and since you'll only get a visa for living with him, he needs to show these funds for himself, too).
This does not include (compulsory) health insurance, which is another EUR350/month per person (or more, depending on income) - you as a dependant might be included free of charge if you have no own income, and if he manages to be registered as student (normally only student at a German school), he'd only pay the subsidized rate of EUR80/month.


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## Nononymous

You can "import" foreign health insurance to the satisfaction of the Ausländerbehörde, if you have something that works better for you than jumping into the German system, and particularly if don't have regular German employment income, but rather a UK graduate student stipend or freelance work.

See this. It's not necessarily the case that you'd immediately begin paying 350 euro/month.


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## laciekacie

Brilliant. The health insurance (350 euros/month) was going to be our deal breaker since it's just so much cheaper for my husband as a PhD student in the UK to be covered by the NHS. If, however, we can import some sort of insurance, then we can indeed make our move to Berlin. Just have to figure out which expat insurance is eligible...


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## laciekacie

Now the only hurdle that remains is the ~600 euro/month income. Since he's a student, he won't be able to show that. I wonder if considerable savings or family support can help overcome this requirement?


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## Nononymous

I can't speak to the NHS options - not sure how portable that is. In our (distant) youth there were cheap private insurance options for students. Lots of links and info via Toytown, by all appearances. If you go to work for a Geman employer at some point you'd move into the system, but if you're working remotely for the first while you can probably pick up something cheaper that will still satisfy the Ausländerbehörde.


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## Nononymous

laciekacie said:


> Now the only hurdle that remains is the ~600 euro/month income. Since he's a student, he won't be able to show that. I wonder if considerable savings or family support can help overcome this requirement?


Here's where it's all a bit discretionary. He's not a non-EU national looking to study in Germany, so he doesn't have to prove that he's got money to live before he's granted a visa. It's not unusual for students to live (poorly) from savings and family support. He's entitled to live in Berlin, it only gets tricky when it's the both of you, especially if the whole thing hinges on your being able to work to support him.

In your shoes I'd still stick to the original plan - march down to the Ausländerbehörde and ask for a residence/work permit as the spouse of an EU national, both of you living permanently in Berlin of course, with your finances a mix of his savings/support as a student and your working for a US employer. Bring pay stubs and bank statements to support this, of course.


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## Donutz2

laciekacie said:


> Thanks for the information. I would like to send an update on my situation and ask a few questions. My boyfriend and I married in 2014 (again, I am a U.S. citizen and he is British). Since then, I purchased an apartment in my name in Berlin and plan to move there in May. Now that it is difficult to use the Surinder Singh route, I would like to stay in Berlin but he only has three months there before he needs to be back in England to resume his PhD studies. My questions are the following:
> 
> 1. What are the steps we can take for me to get right to remain? As I understood it, he needs to get an official job in Berlin.
> 
> 2. Is this possible to do given that he only has three months before he needs to return to the UK?
> 
> Thanks in advance!


The EU high court ruled in early march 2014 (somebody vs the Dutch state) that 3 whole months of stay is sufficient for the SS/EU route, aslong the center of ones activities actually took place there. So you might be able to follow that route but the authorities probably are going to fire a lot of questions at you if you return so quickly to your own EU country (the UK doesn't seem to have updated their guidelines yet and stick to the 6 months rule, or their webpages haven't been updated yet).


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## ALKB

Donutz2 said:


> The EU high court ruled in early march 2014 (somebody vs the Dutch state) that 3 whole months of stay is sufficient for the SS/EU route, aslong the center of ones activities actually took place there. So you might be able to follow that route but the authorities probably are going to fire a lot of questions at you if you return so quickly to your own EU country (the UK doesn't seem to have updated their guidelines yet and stick to the 6 months rule, or their webpages haven't been updated yet).


The UK does not have a six month rule. The UK says that each case has to be evaluated individually (which makes the whole thing so hard to grasp) and people who applied under Surinder Singh even after a year in another EU country have been refused because their employment was not "genuine and effective".

Three months studying remotely at a UK university and working for a US employer while telecommuting from Germany will not satisfy the rules.

Also, nobody has taken the UK to court for the centre of life rule, yet. Denmark has been doing something similar for years and so far, the EC has not done anything about it.


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