# NIE numbers now starting with "Y"



## libove (Feb 24, 2008)

Word of advice to new extranjeros - my NIE, granted a few months ago, begins with the letter "Y". Evidently, previously, NIEs began with the letter "X". 
I have now encountered at least two areas where companies / systems aren't yet ready for the new "Y" NIEs - Gas Natural and Cataluña's Pla Renove 2008.
In both cases, a system, or a person typing in to a system, said that my NIE was "wrong". One of them tried to insist that my NIE was in the format of the CIF of an empresa.
I checked with the legal counsel to our company's HR department and learned that it's just a matter of having run out of X numbers, and I surmise then that systems haven't been updated yet.
Apparently, in Spain as everywhere else in the world, if the computer says it's so, it must be so 
Cheers,
Jay in Barcelona


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

libove said:


> Word of advice to new extranjeros - my NIE, granted a few months ago, begins with the letter "Y". Evidently, previously, NIEs began with the letter "X".
> I have now encountered at least two areas where companies / systems aren't yet ready for the new "Y" NIEs - Gas Natural and Cataluña's Pla Renove 2008.
> In both cases, a system, or a person typing in to a system, said that my NIE was "wrong". One of them tried to insist that my NIE was in the format of the CIF of an empresa.
> I checked with the legal counsel to our company's HR department and learned that it's just a matter of having run out of X numbers, and I surmise then that systems haven't been updated yet.
> ...


Jay - I'd make preliminary enquiries NOW to HACIENDA too then - I had issues some years ago when the systems here did not understand the "X" either. A lady in Bilbao and I were sharing tax payments.


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## libove (Feb 24, 2008)

Hi Chris,

Good advice, no doubt!

Ah, well, "fortunately" for me, Hacienda isn't in the picture, as I can't afford to buy anything I'd want to live in, anywhere I'd want to live!! :-/

The place I'm renting for €1.600/month on Putxet hill in Barcelona is quite nice for now  The agent said that the proprietor (over)paid about €1M for it a year ago... wow. Ouch. Even at the ~€700K I figure it's worth, it's arguably out of our price range. wow. Ouch.

Jay


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

libove said:


> Ah, well, "fortunately" for me, Hacienda isn't in the picture, as I can't afford to buy anything I'd want to live in, anywhere I'd want to live!! :-/


Will you be paying income tax in Spain? - if so, you will indeed get to know hacienda - so check - they'll happily take the monthly payment - the issue comes when you want some back!


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## libove (Feb 24, 2008)

Hm, I thought that income tax was the Tributaria. I'm already registered for income tax collection, as I'm a regular permanent employee of a Spanish company, rather than an independent. So, Tributaria, Hacienda, I suspect my NIE is okay there.

I put a note on my calendar for early 2009 to get - if one is needed and different from my NIE -a NIF for tax purposes. I only earned income in Spain for the last two months in 2008, so my situation there is quite simple until 2009. Now, my situation in the US taxes, that's not so simple. Sigh.

Do you recommend a particular gestor in Barcelona to help with Spanish tax questions? I had chatted with one gestor service about my immigration process, and I wasn't completely happy with them - their responsiveness sometimes left something to be desired, and not all of their answers were correct on the first go.

Thanks,
Jay


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

Jay - If you have paid any tax this year - you WILL have to do a tax declaration for the 2008 period sometime in 2009. BUT - you may also have to declare (I believe) your US earnings - Check really well what the tax agreements are twixt US and ES to ensure you're not double taxed. You might actually get a lot of your tax back! - ime the local TAX offices actually DO HELP. Just avoid HEAVY industrial/corporate tax periods when you "pop in"- your Financial Controller will know when that is - BELIEVE ME.

My problems began when I discovered that hacienda (bless them) could not deal back then with the X so replaced it with a 0 - and there was a lady in Bilbao with this number as her SPANISH DNI. So we'd both paid tax into the same fund. Hacienda (of which the Agencia Tributaria is part) were not officious about it and solved it all in a few hours - But I'd make sure - I was more than just a BIT worried for a while. X1234 had not flagged as having paid at all - whereas 01234 had paid too much.

As an employee - NIE=NIF.


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## libove (Feb 24, 2008)

No worries, I've read both the English and Spanish versions of the Spain <-> US dual taxation treaties. I will be a non-resident for tax purposes until 1.1.2014, thanks to a special element of the Spanish tax law intended to encourage certain foreigners to come live and work in Spain, which simplifies things - such as not having to report my foreign income on my Spanish tax return (which I will still have to file, of course).

Maybe you can answer a curiosity I have - it seems that one benefits from getting a digital ID for interactions with various Spanish government web sites. How does one go about it?

Thanks,
Jay


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

libove said:


> Maybe you can answer a curiosity I have - it seems that one benefits from getting a digital ID for interactions with various Spanish government web sites. How does one go about it?


It's a minefield for NON-SPANIARDS still. I'm involved in the requirements to make the facilities available for DIGICARD owners as of 1/1/2010. The Dg of the association of Notarios admits that it is going to be VERY hard to implement for foreigners - especially ANGLO SAXONS.

YOU CAN however apply for a DIGITAL CERTIFICATE from the "Fabrica Nacional de Moneda y Timbres" (FNMT) http://www.cert.fnmt.es/index.php?cha=cit&sec=obtain_cert&lang=en


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## libove (Feb 24, 2008)

EDIT!! I'm embarassed... actually, the CERES form was perfectly happy with my NIE ... once I waited long enough for the certificate enrollment ActiveX Control to download and instantiate...

Former, now wrong comment I made...:
Heh heh. You were right. That form won't accept my NIE. I sent email to the CERES contact address requesting assistance (in Spanish). I'll follow up here when they answer...


Anyway, What is DIGICARD?
Jay


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

libove said:


> Anyway, What is DIGICARD?
> Jay


Its real name is the DNIe (the Spanish DNI with a microchip in it that contains a DNI specific Digital Cert) - but digicard rolls off the tongue better than DAY-ANY-EE-AY dont you think?.


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## libove (Feb 24, 2008)

chris(madrid) said:


> Its real name is the DNIe (the Spanish DNI with a microchip in it that contains a DNI specific Digital Cert) - but digicard rolls off the tongue better than DAY-ANY-EE-AY dont you think?.


Yes, without question, digicard is easier to say than DNIe is to spell out in Spanish!

I saw the mention of the DNIe on the CERES web page. I do think that a government (or post office) run physical smart card solution could be very useful in this age of eCommerce, and it's not like they can't already track us if they want to.

Has DNIe been embraced by much of the civilian population, not to mention, by many of the government branches for interactions with the civilian population? And, more importantly, has it begun to be used in a Federated model by non-government entities such as banks, taking advantage of the strongest kind of authentication practically available without each commercial institution having to roll its own?

Jay

Wow, are we ever off-topic!


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

libove said:


> Has DNIe been embraced by much of the civilian population, not to mention, by many of the government branches for interactions with the civilian population? And, more importantly, has it begun to be used in a Federated model by non-government entities such as banks, taking advantage of the strongest kind of authentication practically available without each commercial institution having to roll its own?


IN THEORY - all NEW issued/renewed DNI are now DNIe. This started a good 18months ago. Also LEGALLY as of 1/1/2010 authorities SHOULD make provision for access to information VIA Dig cert (incl DNIe). But as I say it's a bit of a minefield as Spains Data Model is not 100% supportive of the concept.


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## libove (Feb 24, 2008)

I can confirm that Foreigner ID cards are not yet being issued (at least not automatically) as smartcards. I just got my Foreigner ID card two weeks ago and it's a typical plastic laminated card with picture, text, signature, and a machine optically readable text section, like the older passports. No smart card / chip.

Interesting that the AEPD (I assume by Data Model you mean the Agencia Española por la Protección de Datos de caracter personal? http://www.agpd.es) would oppose digital IDs for citizens. Digital IDs don't provide any greater ID threat than regular IDs; they reduce ID theft risk; and they enable more certainty in transactions requiring ID. I'm certified Privacy professional, and I've actually had the pleasure of meeting Spain's, Italy's, Germany's, France's, the UK's, and other nationa's Data Protection Authoritys' leaders in recent years, so this is of quite direct interest to me personally and professionally. Have you seen a published opinion about it? I should read it!

Thanks!
Jay


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

libove said:


> (I assume by Data Model you mean the Agencia Española por la Protección de Datos de caracter personal?


No it's not what I mean - The current data model is a distributed networked one - It makes some infrastructure suppositions that are not 100% correct.


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## libove (Feb 24, 2008)

Ah, I see. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Now we're REALLY off-topic, but ... Generally, distributed is not a problem for PKI (hard or soft); what kind of infrastructure assumptions are in the current distributed Spanish government data model which make adoption of these advanced PKI capabilities unusually difficult?
Jay


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

Assuming that all town halls have decent UPS - or the utility power is stable. A fair amount of data is kept locally. 

Some don't even have ADSL comm's. Many don't even have an IT bod. But they've a year still.


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## libove (Feb 24, 2008)

Oh. THAT kind of "distributed". Heh. Well, maybe when I'd done with my current role, I'll apply to the Spanish government to help them bring up the local offices to really benefit from the (in truth very advanced - I'm impressed!) central services of CERES, etc! 
Jay


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