# so... to go or not to go?



## Nononymous

So Plan A was to go to Berlin for three months this fall - staying under the 90 day limit so no Anmeldung or Aufenhaltserlaubnis or any of that. Coming from Canada, combo vaccinated (AZ then Pfizer). As things now stand, we'd have no problems getting into Germany, but I'm increasingly concerned about whether we'll be able to get whatever sort of vaccination/immunity pass will inevitably be required to do much of anything once we are there.

With the caveat that none of us can predict the future, any thoughts? German friends are kind of "yeah whatever it'll be fine" but tourist status isn't the same as being residents.

We'd originally thought of booking flights for 3.5 months and spending a couple of weeks outside of Schengen, but that looks increasingly unwise.


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## Bevdeforges

It's just my opinion at the moment, but I think the prospects for this fall are worrisome at best. There is supposed to be some way to convert a foreign vaccination record into an EU "green pass" (or whatever they are calling it), but so far the big issue seems to be that of validating the vaccinations with the national health authority of the country where the vaccinations were obtained. 

There also appear to be somewhat different mask standards. Several months ago there was an EU standard announced for category 1 and 2 cloth masks (category 1 being those "certified" as at least 90% filters) but shortly after that standard came out, my German friend said that in the Stuttgart area the only acceptable masks were FFP2 (basically 95% masks). So things are confusing right now wherever you go.


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## *Sunshine*

Nononymous said:


> I'm increasingly concerned about whether we'll be able to get whatever sort of vaccination/immunity pass will inevitably be required to do much of anything once we are there.


What were you planning on doing for three months? How risk averse are you? 

Mask requirements are in flux. Someplaces require FFP2 and for others an OP mask is sufficient.


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## Nononymous

*Sunshine* said:


> What were you planning on doing for three months? How risk averse are you?


Seeing friends, the usual dining out, cultural events and shopping, otherwise working from the apartment and possibly some travel (within or outside of Schengen). Masks don't bother us and we're fully vaccinated so very little concern about risk. The bigger issue is whether life will be boring. If we're going to be stuck at home without much fun or socializing, I'd rather stay in Canada.


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## ALKB

Nononymous said:


> Seeing friends, the usual dining out, cultural events and shopping, otherwise working from the apartment and possibly some travel (within or outside of Schengen). Masks don't bother us and we're fully vaccinated so very little concern about risk. The bigger issue is whether life will be boring. If we're going to be stuck at home without much fun or socializing, I'd rather stay in Canada.


Last summer things went similarly to now, things were relatively relaxed.

In autumn, not so much. In winter even less. I am not sure how much of an impact the vaccinations will have this time round, but last autumn/winter, the problem with attending cultural events was, that they were pretty much all cancelled. At least the ones I had planned on attending.

Can you defer for a year?


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## *Sunshine*

Nononymous said:


> possibly some travel (within or outside of Schengen).


Forget travel unless you are planning on a Rundreise where you take everything with you everytime you cross a border. As a tourist without a residence permit you will be completely at the whim of spontaneous border closures. For example, despite the situation being better this summer than last fall, the UK is now back on the risk area list and Brits can no longer enter Germany as tourists. Planning on using Berlin as a base to fly around the continent would be incredibly foolish. 

At the moment it is possible to dine out and most places have outdoor seating. Once it starts getting colder outdoor seating options get scarcer and last year it was only possible to order takeout for months. Considering all the new virus variants (especially those resistant to the vaccines), I wouldn't be surprised if restaurants have to face new regulations by November.

On the other hand, even at the height of the pandemic, it was almost impossible for the authorities to enforce restrictions on small private gatherings and meeting friends would only depend on their willingness to meet you. 

A German colleague and his wife had a 5 week trip to the States booked for September, but it has been cancelled because Germans can't enter the US at the moment. Now they are considering Atlantic Canada. What do you think?


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## Nononymous

The short version for your friends is that there are currently very few restrictions in Canada. In the west, none at all - it's basically 2019 again, at least for now. I don't specifically know about Atlantic Canada, but given that they sealed themselves off and kept the numbers very low throughout, I expect that they are wide open. Vaccination rates in Canada are relatively high, which augurs well for September. As for getting in, I won't presume to advise, but that information should be easily available from the federal government. Several folks we know have recently returned from Europe and the fuss has been minimal, but they were Canadian of course, and fully vaccinated.

We've given up on the idea of travel outside of Germany, unless it became possible and we made a fast decision, and could then extend our stay. I'm a little more sanguine about the fall given that the vaccines still do work against the variants, but I saw some concerning news recently about vaccine uptake in Berlin beginning to plateau at levels that won't be high enough to prevent another wave. (Vollidioten.) The plan for this weekend is to sit down and see what the rules are now, then plan fallbacks. My concern is primarily being stuck in an apartment with nothing fun to do except go for walks and bring home takeout. I've also not found any information about how a foreigner can use their vaccination records to obtain whatever sort of Impfpass is likely going to be necessary to do stuff (though possibly that won't happen right away because the CDU wouldn't dare bring it in before the election).


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## *Sunshine*

At the moment it is possible for Germans to vacation in Canada and vice versa. Whether that statement will still be true in two weeks is uncertain. From the sounds of it, you'd be better off vacationing in Atlantic Canada.

Until recently there was a shortage of vaccines in Germany and the authorities were trying to manage rationing them. The logistical problem has now flipped and the health departments are trying to devise campaigns to encourage more people to get the vaccine. It is now possible to obtain a vaccine without an appointment and there are more vaccines available than residents willing to be vaccinated. A little over 60% of the population in Berlin has received the first vaccination and Germany is probably a month or so behind the US.

There is some type of security issue with the German app and it is currently not possible for people who were vaccinated here to receive a qr code to scan into the app. I'm not even sure whether rules on processing foreign vaccinations are even on the radar.



Nononymous said:


> My concern is primarily being stuck in an apartment with nothing fun to do except go for walks and bring home takeout.


That pretty much describes my last winter. There is also no guarantee that it won't happen again.


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## Nononymous

Okay, I think we are close to a decision: go to Berlin on or around 1 September, book a flight for 90 days, but flexible so we can return if things get stupid or boring. We have an open-ended accommodation situation, which really helps.

As of today it's not a problem for us to enter Germany. Friends have recently done this. Unless things go badly wrong, it should be equally easy in a month's time.

There are questions about whether foreigners can easily get their vaccination status recognized on an app, but as I understand it, you don't actually need an app to do anything in Germany right now. Given the potential unpopularity of that measure I can't see it happening before the federal election, and not unless things get really bad, in which case we'd leave anyway. Am I wrong here?


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## ALKB

Nononymous said:


> Okay, I think we are close to a decision: go to Berlin on or around 1 September, book a flight for 90 days, but flexible so we can return if things get stupid or boring. We have an open-ended accommodation situation, which really helps.
> 
> As of today it's not a problem for us to enter Germany. Friends have recently done this. Unless things go badly wrong, it should be equally easy in a month's time.
> 
> There are questions about whether foreigners can easily get their vaccination status recognized on an app, but as I understand it, you don't actually need an app to do anything in Germany right now. Given the potential unpopularity of that measure I can't see it happening before the federal election, and not unless things get really bad, in which case we'd leave anyway. Am I wrong here?


Do you have a vaccination booklet? Yellow or otherwise?

I don't think usage of an app could be made mandatory as it would mean that owning smart phones would be mandatory.

I got the QR code but haven't scanned it. I am carrying my vaccination booklet around with me anyway (even pre-COVID).


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## Nononymous

Our provincial government no longer issues the yellow booklets. We can print off a record of our vaccinations, or have them shown on an app. (We have is no requirement to prove vaccination status for any reason.) Nothing to do with QR codes here.

So to confirm, I can eat indoors at a restaurant or go shopping or do anything else without being asked to provide proof of vaccination status? (I would happily provide it but I'm not confident that some random app from another country will be recognized.)


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## ALKB

Nononymous said:


> Our provincial government no longer issues the yellow booklets. We can print off a record of our vaccinations, or have them shown on an app. (We have is no requirement to prove vaccination status for any reason.) Nothing to do with QR codes here.
> 
> So to confirm, I can eat indoors at a restaurant or go shopping or do anything else without being asked to provide proof of vaccination status? (I would happily provide it but I'm not confident that some random app from another country will be recognized.)


At the moment, indoor seating in Berlin restaurants should only be available with a current negative test or proof of vaccinations. For me, that would be my yellow booklet, which I have had since birth. This can change at any time.

I think it would be difficult for individual restaurant managers to know all the vaccination records of the world and what they look like. When you print your record, is that something you could have made yourself at any given computer? 

If so, could you maybe get it apostilled by the Ministry of Health or notarized? There is also the matter of it not being in German, so you may or may not have to have the record translated by a sworn translator. I can see how this may cause all sorts of issues.


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## Nononymous

Okay, thanks, that's the small bit of information that I haven't been able to find - what do you need to show and when? Currently it's only indoor dining that requires some sort of pass? Our vaccination records here are only a PDF printout - völlig ohne Stempeln! - or a very simple app. I doubt that either would be very effective in Berlin.

My concern isn't getting into Germany, that seems to be relatively easy at the moment, but rather gaining access to the app or pass needed to go about daily life. That is something that the authorities will need to be figured out very quickly, or they can kiss tourism goodbye (not that we're tourists exactly, except from a visa perspective).


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## ALKB

Nononymous said:


> Okay, thanks, that's the small bit of information that I haven't been able to find - what do you need to show and when? Currently it's only indoor dining that requires some sort of pass? Our vaccination records here are only a PDF printout - völlig ohne Stempeln! - or a very simple app. I doubt that either would be very effective in Berlin.
> 
> My concern isn't getting into Germany, that seems to be relatively easy at the moment, but rather gaining access to the app or pass needed to go about daily life. That is something that the authorities will need to be figured out very quickly, or they can kiss tourism goodbye (not that we're tourists exactly, except from a visa perspective).


I don't think anybody is worried about international tourism right now.

The industry is struggling to meet domestic demand, as many Germans decided to not vacation abroad while at the same time about a third of people who worked in the hospitality sector pre-Covid, have decided to change careers meanwhile.

It's a pity that the world doesn't seem to use the yellow booklets any longer. they are certainly something anybody here would recognize as what they are and accept that they are genuine.

Wild idea - could you just buy an international yellow WHO booklet off the internet (if I lost mine, I could get a new one for free from my GP but I see that they are available for a couple of Euros) and have your doctor enter your vaccinations?

Personally, I don't think I would travel to Germany this autumn.


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