# Employment situation for young people



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Another short article which should leave in absolute no doubt as to how bad the unemployment situation is here for young people
Youth unemployment: Young and jobless | The Economist

You might be interested to know that 15.3% of Spain’s young people between the ages of 16 and 24 neither work nor study. After Italy (15.9%) this is the second highest level of so called ninis in Europe.

And what are ninis??
Los que_* ni*_ trabajan _*ni*_ estudian
Those that neither work nor study


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Another short article which should leave in absolute no doubt as to how bad the unemployment situation is here for young people
> Youth unemployment: Young and jobless | The Economist
> 
> You might be interested to know that 15.3% of Spain’s young people between the ages of 16 and 24 neither work nor study. After Italy (15.9%) this is the second highest level of so called ninis in Europe.
> ...


I sort of wonder what role family plays in this. I've found that when I mention the "tough love" attitude of many American parents, in terms of "you're 16, go work at Pizza Hut" and "you're 18 and not in uni, go find yourself an apartment and pay for it yourself," people here are positively shocked. 

Additionally, at what age can you legally work here? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it only easy to begin working once you're 18? And how many middle class parents (this might be a regional thing) are willing to tell their children to go pick up an application at the local fast food joint/bar/supermarket? 

After all, why even try for a job when you're comfortable at home with mom and dad? The Cantabrian government, a year or two ago, was actively marketing financial help for young people to leave home. And, if I remember correctly, this grant was given even to young 30-somethings. 

I get the feeling that my parenting skills may be questioned in the future. However, as someone who at 16 began living away from home and at 25 is living abroad, it's going to be hard to NOT tell my future kid(s) that they ought to find their feet as soon as they can.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Halydia you're a hard nut 

However I think you raise a very interesting point but it should not deflect from the disaster that is Spanish youth unemployment.

When an economy is sound you can throw your children to the wolves knowing that you have equipped them well and that they have a fighting chance. However throwing your children into a failed economy with no possibility of survival is another thing.

In most areas of Spain there are not food outlets begging for staff. If by chance you get into a temporary job you will be treated like sh*t. Without some certainty of further employment you would have to be crazy to take on rent and living cost commitments.

But ....

I believe the spanish family structure (despites Pesky's doubts) are influenced by the Franco years and the hard vicious past. You can change the rules overnight but you cannot change the prejudices and the fears. In my family in Madrid two of the four generations lived under Franco. Those generations influence the younger generations. 

When I first experienced Spanish family life close up I was surprised by the lack of fight in the people. Why they didn't rebel. Why as you suggest they didn't get off their backsides and change things (on all levels). But after a while, a fair while, I started to see how these people carry the scars of the past.

But I also saw that much of what frustrated me was also much of what endeared me to them . The traditions are important to them. The family comes first. They had more that pleased them that didn't cost money (than I had in England). I found they invited me in, they shared, they were generous, ............ 

I now see that for them it is not easy to change what is bad. And it is dangerous to expect them to react as us who arrive from rich countries. 

My youth had security. We lived in a council house. My parents weren't rich. But for me wanting a part time job from the age of 14 was always easily achieved even living in a small village. When I was a student I could afford to live away from home. I could get holiday jobs easily. And once I finished education (I skipped UNI so no degree) I had a pick of jobs. By the age of 23 I could buy a flat in south London. 

My wife in Seville started work rolleyes at the age of 14. Even with the corrupt privileges of a father who was Guardia Civil life was so tough they moved to Madrid (family of 4) on a Vespa and side car. My wife's father tried to commit suicide when he couldn't put food on the table. 

O so different; how we ever got it together heaven knows 

Don't get me wrong I still get frustrated with them but I now understand better why they might find your post lacks understanding (appreciating that was not your intention).

I believe the age you can start working is 16 with some restrictions for night working until you are 18.

Halydia do your spanish family think along the lines of your post? I'd be fascinated by any insight.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

nigele2 said:


> Halydia you're a hard nut
> 
> However I think you raise a very interesting point but it should not deflect from the disaster that is Spanish youth unemployment.
> 
> ...


Excellent post .:clap2:


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

halydia said:


> I get the feeling that my parenting skills may be questioned in the future. However, as someone who at 16 began living away from home and at 25 is living abroad, it's going to be hard to NOT tell my future kid(s) that they ought to find their feet as soon as they can.


Well, I for one wouldn't question your parenting skills as they sound remarkably similar to mine. When my son had his fourteenth birthday I presented him with a Black and Decker tool kit and told him that he had to use it henceforth to earn his pocket money. I threw him out of the house when he was eighteen and that afternoon took a pickaxe to his bedroom wall and demolished it to enlarge our living room. OK, so he went to live with his father in London as planned and went to University but he had to pay his way and did so by working at every opportunity.
I was constantly told by 'progressive' minded friends that he would raise the proverbial finger at me when he became an adult but nothing could be further from the truth. He has grown into a professionally successful adult with a happy family life and our relationship is strong and, importantly for me, based on mutual respect.
My grandson from his first marriage will this week come into possession of a trust fund set up for him by his late grandparents. He will be able to buy a house or apartment and a decent car...at the age of eighteen. To me this is profoundly wrong.
When I spoke to friends in Prague about my feelings on this they were shocked. It's usual for parents there to support their children well into their thirties. One result of this imo is a society where people are short on independence and extremely risk averse. 
There are some similarities between the experiences of Spain and the CR. Both had decades of dictatorship where personal initiative was discouraged. Living standards were poor in each state - although I believe Spain suffered more and for longer. For various factors, both economic and social, the family became extremely important, both as a place of economic support and also as a place where trust could reign.
I don't know what the situation is in Spain but there is a growing gap between the generations in the CR. For decades old men were in charge....now the young are aggressively thrusting forward and spearheading change.
Both you and I have our roots in countries where individualism and personal autonomy are part of our innate belief system. We have developed civil societies and our system works on trust. That is not universally so, even in Europe. (Have you read 'The European Dream' by Jeremy Rifkind?...Interesting but dated..)
My Czech friend was aghast when she was told that our business customers were mainly account clients who paid within the usual thirty, sixty or ninety days. Inconceivable in the CR where cash upfront is the norm, even for large transactions.
On this issue I agree with Nigel. Our cultural and historical background is significantly different to that of many other Europeans and Americans.
We are all currently subject to the vagaries of the bond markets but each EU state will find its unique problems exacerbated by the common curse.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

halydia said:


> I sort of wonder what role family plays in this. I've found that when I mention the "tough love" attitude of many American parents, in terms of "you're 16, go work at Pizza Hut" and "you're 18 and not in uni, go find yourself an apartment and pay for it yourself," people here are positively shocked.
> 
> Additionally, at what age can you legally work here? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it only easy to begin working once you're 18? And how many middle class parents (this might be a regional thing) are willing to tell their children to go pick up an application at the local fast food joint/bar/supermarket?
> 
> ...


I was very strict on this when my grown up daughters first left full time education. Get a job, pay me rent or leave! My eldest (at 19yo) was horrified, she didnt want to get a job after she left college, she wanted to have a year out before having to look for work! Afterall, why should she pay to live in her own home??? Er.... we have to pay a mortgage to live there! In the end and after many ultimatums, I put all her belongins on the road outside of the house and she defiantly moved into a friends house! A couple of weeks later , the friends mum phoned me and asked me to contribute to my daughters keep, I declined and the mother thought I was evil and told me so, however, my daughter left there, came home and I took her to the unemployment office - which filled her with dread "I'm not going in there, its full of scum" she said! Anyway, she ran off and within an hour had a job in a local clothes shop!! Once she was settled, she then got herself a good job with an airline!!! I'm very proud of her now and she is of herself!!!

The role of a parent isnt just to bring up babies, its to bring up responsible adults!

Jo xxxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> I was very strict on this when my grown up daughters first left full time education. Get a job, pay me rent or leave! My eldest (at 19yo) was horrified, she didnt want to get a job after she left college, she wanted to have a year out before having to look for work! Afterall, why should she pay to live in her own home??? Er.... we have to pay a mortgage to live there! In the end and after many ultimatums, I put all her belongins on the road outside of the house and she defiantly moved into a friends house! A couple of weeks later , the friends mum phoned me and asked me to contribute to my daughters keep, I declined and the mother thought I was evil and told me so, however, my daughter left there, came home and I took her to the unemployment office - which filled her with dread "I'm not going in there, its full of scum" she said! Anyway, she ran off and within an hour had a job in a local clothes shop!! Once she was settled, she then got herself a good job with an airline!!! I'm very proud of her now and she is of herself!!!
> 
> The role of a parent isnt just to bring up babies, its to bring up responsible adults!
> 
> Jo xxxx


A woman after me own 'eart


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

There is a very simple solution,

Don't breed!!

Hepa


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Hepa said:


> There is a very simple solution,
> 
> Don't breed!!
> 
> Hepa


But who will fund our pensions?


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> But who will fund our pensions?


I funded my own.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Hepa said:


> I funded my own.


As did I. But what about all those who have to rely on the state pension?
It's not easy to save for your old age if you earn £15k a year in the UK.
A private pension pot of £100k won't give you much of a return nowadays...
And even if we fund our own pensions, we still need young people to work to enable the insurance companies/pension fund providers to attract new funds so they remain able to pay out to us oldies.
No pension fund can survive on past payments alone.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> As did I. But what about all those who have to rely on the state pension?
> It's not easy to save for your old age if you earn £15k a year in the UK.
> A private pension pot of £100k won't give you much of a return nowadays...
> And even if we fund our own pensions, we still need young people to work to enable the insurance companies/pension fund providers to attract new funds so they remain able to pay out to us oldies.
> No pension fund can survive on past payments alone.


When I first started I earned one British pound for a 40 hour week. That one pound was for my board. I cycled the 30 mile round trip to and from work and after a year I began slowly to realise that I was being exploited.

So I broke out, caught my parents in a good mood, they signed the consent papers 10 weeks later I was bound for Hong Kong earning Three Pounds ten Shillings weekly.

From those early beginnings I have progressed to retirement and I want for nothing, if I live to over 100, I have enough to survive, no body funds me.

If I can do this then so can others, for I do not profess to be the brightest penny in the till.

100,000 reckon I could draw at least 10% per annum on that probably more,

Hepa


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Yes we all worked hard when we were younger and our parents made sacrifices for us as we did/ will do for our children. And my family lived in a house with an outside toilet, and my family lived in a house without a toilet and my family lived in a shoebox. (Monty Python in case anyone's wondering) Pat on the back for all of us!
But what about the situation here and now?
Halydia's right when she says that it's just not the done thing here. And I'm talking about in general, not just because there's a crisis on. Perhaps it's a snob thing, like you work when you're young if you're from a farming family that needs the family to help to be able to survive?? I have met some young people who work as well as study, but 2 or 3!!
I was adamant that my daughter would have a summer job before she went to college or what ever, but it's not going to be easy to find smth. Also I must admit during term time she has so much work (1st year bachillerato) that I don't think she'd be able to do any more work. Although it's true, I did when I was her age...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Hepa said:


> When I first started I earned one British pound for a 40 hour week. That one pound was for my board. I cycled the 30 mile round trip to and from work and after a year I began slowly to realise that I was being exploited.
> 
> So I broke out, caught my parents in a good mood, they signed the consent papers 10 weeks later I was bound for Hong Kong earning Three Pounds ten Shillings weekly.
> 
> ...



Well, not everyone's life can follow that pattern, can it? We can't all go to Hong Kong...I'm talking about life in the UK or Spain NOW. I'm guessing you joined the forces or the Merchant Navy....well, we aren't all equipped to do that. I don't think I'd like any child of mine to join the forces now....chances are they'd be sent somewhere they'd be in a war zone.
We all like to think that 'nobody has funded us' - it gives us a sense of pride and independence. I've never had any handouts from family or state, I've made my own way too.
But of course others have 'funded' me....the UK taxpayer funded my education, the health care I had when I was younger, the roads I travelled on, the policeman who helped me cross the road.
Not everyone wants to live a simple life which I think from your posts is your preference. I had enough of that when I was young. We had a simple life out of necessity, not choice. 
I make no apologies for wanting more in my old age.
Life has changed since you and I started out. There are no 'jobs for life' anymore. Life is more harsh, less kind.
We cannot expect others to follow our paths.

Please tell me how to get ten percent return on our investments. We spent a lot of time looking for the best investment opportunity and found nothing like that.....nothing secure, anyway.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Regarding investments I have answered that same question in other threads, seek expert advice, consult a professional, someone who knows what they are doing. 10% and more can be attained

Education, perhaps you were more fortunate than most. I learned to read and write, add and subtract, divide and multiply, no more, the opportunities for further state funded education were at that time unavailable.

Life always evolves, I do not want or expect others to follow my path, persons must make their own choices. Seize what opportunities are available. Jobs never were for life, businesses have failed and closed, jobs have been lost.

A simple life, my goodness how boring, this I have not yet had, and if I saw it appearing on the horizon, I would and have altered course.

No one funds me, I still pay tax, which is used to fund others,

Hepa


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> As did I. But what about all those who have to rely on the state pension?


We three, that's me , my wife and mother-in-law survived very well and still had work carried out on the house during the first 18 months we were here just on my state pension. My small employment pensions were going to cost too much to send to Spain so we left them in a UK bank account and still do for the same reason (they get used for buying a few books and DVDs from Amazon, etc). My wife now has a small part-time job which pays her pension contributions here but we still manage quite comfortably on my state pension.


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2010)

hepa said:


> there is a very simple solution,
> 
> don't breed!!
> 
> Hepa




don't listen to hepa, you'll put me out of a job!!!!


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

halydia said:


> don't listen to hepa, you'll put me out of a job!!!!



What can one say!

I like that well said

Hepa


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2010)

nigele2 said:


> Halydia you're a hard nut
> 
> However I think you raise a very interesting point but it should not deflect from the disaster that is Spanish youth unemployment.
> 
> ...



Nigele, 

Had to crack open a _San Mi_ to reply to this one (oh, what a day. It's clear the students have NO desire to be in school this week. Me either, to be truthful  )

From what I understand, this bit about it being entirely ok for your kids to stay at home until they marry (at age 30-something) is not new by any means in Spain. I'm often shocked at what I perceive to be a lack of independence (which many arguably will see in the positive light as "having a tight family) in terms of being married/divorced and STILL going to your parents house to eat lunch during your break because your spouse is working farther away. My OH is considerably older than I am, and was not thrown to the wolves during the boom years in Spain. Nor was his sister, his brother in law, or other family friends I know. Most are starting out at age 30+. I'm surprised when I hear someone under 30 has left home. 

I'm not sure I understand your point about family structure being influenced by Franco's rule. What do you mean? I have a funny feeling our respective OH's have family on opposite ends of the political spectrum. I wonder if this could have influenced this statement? 

Regarding the lack of fight, this has got to be a regional thing. My OH's family is Basque. They're not nationalists, but there's absolutely no way I can say they're not fighters. OH's grandfather (may he RIP) was one heck of a rebel. His wife and children are the same. I wonder if this could have been affected by one's family's political leanings. 

I cannot complain, by any means, about the amount of family support here. It's great to have, and I feel incredibly comfortable here. It seems that you and I have been received in the same way, and have similar feelings. 

I'm sure that if my OH read my original post, we'd have a fun debate. Maybe I'll bring it up tomorrow to see what he says. (Tonight no, we're both suffering after a pre-Christmas break school day.) I don't want to insult Spanish culture, by any means. I'm sure my post lacked understanding - I'm still learning. 

I'm not sure how to answer your question about whether or not my Spanish family feel along the same lines as me. I'm the cold, tough love one. They're more about helping to find your feet.


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I have met some young people who work as well as study, but 2 or 3!!
> 
> I was adamant that my daughter would have a summer job before she went to college or what ever, but it's not going to be easy to find smth. Also I must admit during term time she has so much work (1st year bachillerato) that I don't think she'd be able to do any more work. Although it's true, I did when I was her age...


What I find most shocking/different is the reaction people have when I say something about working while studying. However, I don't see a whole lot of reason for students to get a job. I had to pay rent, groceries, and (let's admit it) beer. Don't most kids here go to uni close to home? That'll really influence the need to work. Also, university here costs a whole lot less than in North America.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

halydia said:


> I'm not sure I understand your point about family structure being influenced by Franco's rule. What do you mean? I have a funny feeling our respective OH's have family on opposite ends of the political spectrum. I wonder if this could have influenced this statement?


I think my view on Franco is clear but of no importance with regard to this. The guy ruled for more than 30 years limiting freedoms. He therefore influenced peoples thinking. His repression of the regions, of individuality, of personal freedom has sculpted the spanish. Further when he eventually died and the Cava had been drunk there was little change. It takes a long time to rebuild trust. Certainly in my spanish family there are a few Francoites (I wouldn't say they were fascist). They talk of how they could walk the streets when Franco ruled. They ignore my wife being forcefully removed from a bar and taken home to have her parents threatened. The offense - more than so many people (I forget the number) in a group celebrating a workmates birthday. This was in the 70s. But it makes me smile that Franco was so frightened of opposition he had to use such tactics.



halydia said:


> Regarding the lack of fight, this has got to be a regional thing. My OH's family is Basque. They're not nationalists, but there's absolutely no way I can say they're not fighters. OH's grandfather (may he RIP) was one heck of a rebel. His wife and children are the same. I wonder if this could have been affected by one's family's political leanings.


Yes I see more fight in Asturias than Madrid for example. I guess sadly that the fight from Pais Basque is divided. The separatists and the non-separatists . But glad to hear of their spirit. 



halydia said:


> I'm sure that if my OH read my original post, we'd have a fun debate. Maybe I'll bring it up tomorrow to see what he says. (Tonight no, we're both suffering after a pre-Christmas break school day.) I don't want to insult Spanish culture, by any means. I'm sure my post lacked understanding - I'm still learning.


Aren't we all but there is so much I'd like to ask, especially the older generation. I guess I should be happy with the stories they do share. An alien world to me but despite often extreme poverty there were still very happy times. My wife arriving home to find the house full of the neighbour's furniture. There wasn't much room. But not to worry; once the bailiffs had gone the furniture would go back .

And the riggerty table proped up on peseta coins. When the table was level the coins went on half a chorizo and a jug of wine. Party time and back to a wonky table . 



halydia said:


> I'm not sure how to answer your question about whether or not my Spanish family feel along the same lines as me. I'm the cold, tough love one. They're more about helping to find your feet.


Hopefully one day Halydia you will right the book. A journey of discovery. I hope to do the same when I get the time


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## mattferrier (Oct 18, 2010)

Hepa said:


> Regarding investments I have answered that same question in other threads, seek expert advice, consult a professional, someone who knows what they are doing. 10% and more can be attained
> Hepa


hmm.. 10% would be within riskier areas. you would hope to achieve this level or more during growth years leading up to retirement. but would certainly expect to move to secure funds offering around 5-6% when some one is looking to draw on their pension in retirement.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> We three, that's me , my wife and mother-in-law survived very well and still had work carried out on the house during the first 18 months we were here just on my state pension. My small employment pensions were going to cost too much to send to Spain so we left them in a UK bank account and still do for the same reason (they get used for buying a few books and DVDs from Amazon, etc). My wife now has a small part-time job which pays her pension contributions here but we still manage quite comfortably on my state pension.


I'm talking about the future.....when there will be fewer people of working age to pay taxes into the system.
We are the 'lucky' ones...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Hepa said:


> Regarding investments I have answered that same question in other threads, seek expert advice, consult a professional, someone who knows what they are doing. 10% and more can be attained
> 
> Hepa


Of course we do that....we have some of our funds in a private UK bank and they are managed by 'experts'. The rest are invested offshore, after much consideration of the alternatives on offer. As mattferrier correctly points out, people who can't afford to gamble with their savings have to be content with 5per cent or a little more.
Every person follows their own path in life. If everyone took your path your life on your little island would be very different. 
This 'stand on my own feet' isn't strictly true, though. We all stand on the shoulders of others. Like you I pay tax -lots of it still in retirement. I do not imagine for one moment that my lifetime contributions alone would be sufficient to pay for the public goods I have enjoyed: the roads I drive on, the police, the NHS -and yes, I paid for private healthcare but that rested on doctors and nurses trained in the state system....and all the rest of the infrastructure built on the contributions of past generations of working people.
The fact is that the world has changed at an amazing pace in the past decade. Young people in Spain, the UK, in most countries in Europe, face a future of great uncertainty. There are no 'jobs for life' any more, as there were when I started on my career. One can no longer look forward to a reasonably well-heeled retirement with any certainty.
I take it that your 'Don't breed' advice is tongue in cheek. In fact, western Europeans should do the opposite: make more and more babies.
Those currently in employment are working not just for themselves but for future generations.
'No man is an island'......very true.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Of course we do that....we have some of our funds in a private UK bank and they are managed by 'experts'. The rest are invested offshore, after much consideration of the alternatives on offer. As mattferrier correctly points out, people who can't afford to gamble with their savings have to be content with 5per cent or a little more.
> Every person follows their own path in life. If everyone took your path your life on your little island would be very different.
> This 'stand on my own feet' isn't strictly true, though. We all stand on the shoulders of others. Like you I pay tax -lots of it still in retirement. I do not imagine for one moment that my lifetime contributions alone would be sufficient to pay for the public goods I have enjoyed: the roads I drive on, the police, the NHS -and yes, I paid for private healthcare but that rested on doctors and nurses trained in the state system....and all the rest of the infrastructure built on the contributions of past generations of working people.
> The fact is that the world has changed at an amazing pace in the past decade. Young people in Spain, the UK, in most countries in Europe, face a future of great uncertainty. There are no 'jobs for life' any more, as there were when I started on my career. One can no longer look forward to a reasonably well-heeled retirement with any certainty.
> ...


Mary that's it in a nutshell as of now but the fly in the ointment is that an expanding population is not sustainable. At some point there needs to be a change in direction. Possibly technology will get so smart we will need less people working but by then the population of the little blue planet might be 7 billion.

One thing I think worth exploring is more education for the oldens. We tend as we get older to not be much of a burden on the economy accept for health related issues. However often one sees health issues self inflicted. We also see oldens left in isolation. I'm sure much could be done to greatly improve the oldens lot and drastically reduce costs


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

nigele2 said:


> One thing I think worth exploring is more education for the oldens. We tend as we get older to not be much of a burden on the economy accept for health related issues. However often one sees health issues self inflicted. We also see oldens left in isolation. I'm sure much could be done to greatly improve the oldens lot and drastically reduce costs


The "Old'uns" here, of which I am one, as is my mother-in-law, are very well treated, partly by the state (health care, courses, etc.) but mainly by the neighbours and other volunteers. For example, I go to a painting class each week (not so much to learn - I've been painting almost 50 years - but to be with others who are painting and to provide help and encouragement to the youngsters - the youngest is 4½) and all that is provided (in this case, by the Ayuntamiento) is the accommodation and the heat and light; the person who teaches and supervises is also a painter and does so voluntarily. Fresh fruit and vegetables are given by neighbours to those who either don't have their own huertas or are unable to work one. There are also cookery classes (eating healthily, often just for one instead of for a whole family), handicrafts, etc. For old men on their own who can't cook, there is a place where they can go to get a hot meal or it can be sent out to their home (cost about €4). Healthy older people who are healthy not just because of medical care but because they are involved and cared about and mostly live into their 90s. Such is life in a village and it is great!!!!!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

nigele2 said:


> Mary that's it in a nutshell as of now but the fly in the ointment is that an expanding population is not sustainable. At some point there needs to be a change in direction. Possibly technology will get so smart we will need less people working but by then the population of the little blue planet might be 7 billion.
> 
> One thing I think worth exploring is more education for the oldens. We tend as we get older to not be much of a burden on the economy accept for health related issues. However often one sees health issues self inflicted. We also see oldens left in isolation. I'm sure much could be done to greatly improve the oldens lot and drastically reduce costs



Yes, Nigel you're right, from a global point of view. But western societies are ageing. We need more virile young men like you to get out there and....populate!!!
I'm past it....
When I think back to what people of my not that advanced age were like when I was a teenager...I should be in crimplene and slippers by now instead of jeans and...yes...hoodies
Older people are obviously healthier than even a mere few decades ago...I've got me own teeth but I read that far too many of us drink far too much. I'm not sure if that includes me...a glass of sherry or g&t before dinner, glass of wine later....and I don't smoke any more.
But yes, you are right, prevention is better than cure and cheaper.
Are you in the UK?
I'd love to sit with your inlaws and hear them talk about life under Franco. Do you know if there's a practice here of recording ordinary people's histories, as amateur historians do in the UK? I'm much more interested in the daily lives of people like me than the doings of the great and the good.
If you're in the UK, buy yourself a pint of Badgers best and pretend it's from me.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> The "Old'uns" here, of which I am one, as is my mother-in-law, are very well treated, partly by the state (health care, courses, etc.) but mainly by the neighbours and other volunteers. For example, I go to a painting class each week (not so much to learn - I've been painting almost 50 years - but to be with others who are painting and to provide help and encouragement to the youngsters - the youngest is 4½) and all that is provided (in this case, by the Ayuntamiento) is the accommodation and the heat and light; the person who teaches and supervises is also a painter and does so voluntarily. Fresh fruit and vegetables are given by neighbours to those who either don't have their own huertas or are unable to work one. There are also cookery classes (eating healthily, often just for one instead of for a whole family), handicrafts, etc. For old men on their own who can't cook, there is a place where they can go to get a hot meal or it can be sent out to their home (cost about €4). Healthy older people who are healthy not just because of medical care but because they are involved and cared about and mostly live into their 90s. Such is life in a village and it is great!!!!!


It´s very similar in our town. There are also adult literacy classes (many people over 70 never went to school), an outdoor gym for the _tercera edad_, and a social club where the men can play dominoes while the women do the housework (apparently they like to kick the men out while they do the chores!).

The youngsters have plenty of sports facilities, and the town silver band, but little else apart from hanging round the paseo eyeing each other up. It would be nice to have some sort of venue where they can go and learn/play music - if I win the lottery today I shall set one up!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> It´s very similar in our town. There are also adult literacy classes (many people over 70 never went to school), an outdoor gym for the _tercera edad_, and a social club where the men can play dominoes while the women do the housework (apparently they like to kick the men out while they do the chores!).
> 
> The youngsters have plenty of sports facilities, and the town silver band, but little else apart from hanging round the paseo eyeing each other up. It would be nice to have some sort of venue where they can go and learn/play music - if I win the lottery today I shall set one up!


Our village has amongst other amenities flamenco classes at three levels: beginners, intermediate and advanced.
I've suggested OH might be a natural for that: stamping, arm-waving required...
She is NOT amused.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> It´s very similar in our town. There are also adult literacy classes (many people over 70 never went to school), an outdoor gym for the _tercera edad_, and a social club where the men can play dominoes while the women do the housework (apparently they like to kick the men out while they do the chores!).
> 
> The youngsters have plenty of sports facilities, and the town silver band, but little else apart from hanging round the paseo eyeing each other up. It would be nice to have some sort of venue where they can go and learn/play music - if I win the lottery today I shall set one up!


Likewise we have plenty of sports facilities for the youngsters. We already have a band and there are music classes for all ages. In addition for the youngsters there are all sorts of private classes to augment what they get in school and to help those who need that "little bit more" and personal help with their own learning difficulties. Surprisingly, some of the schoolteachers also send their kids to additional private classes. There is a real feeling of wanting to do well and to do better.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Our village has amongst other amenities flamenco classes at three levels: beginners, intermediate and advanced.
> I've suggested OH might be a natural for that: stamping, arm-waving required...
> She is NOT amused.


But I am !


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Yes, Nigel you're right, from a global point of view. But western societies are ageing. We need more virile young men like you to get out there and....populate!!!


Stop it Mary. I don't need encouragement like that 

Yes in the UK till the 29th and with the weather and disruption here I'm glad work has delayed me. Hopefully by the 29th it will be better and Madrid here I come - get those grapes ready lane:

Last night went with the old boy of the village and had a few pints of Lodden. Cooking bitter but with a good flavour. 

As for family history my MIL has famous (in Spanish terms) composers in her family and as always they are well documented. But day to day life is just the stories that come out after dinner. I just love the idea of before the bailiffs come moving your furniture into your neighbours houses


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Our village silver band is ... er ... well, it has improved lately, but let's say it still has some way to go. They play on every religious and festive occasion and we can hear them practising every Tuesday night if the wind is in the right (sorry, wrong) direction. 

What those kids need is a good School of Rock where they can let rip and release their frustrations (I promise to soundproof the building when I start it up).

I believe flamenco dancers take six months just to learn the hand movements Mary. They start off with "picking an apple off a tree". Perhaps you and your OH can practice together with your Christmas oranges?


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> Our village silver band is ... er ... well, it has improved lately, but let's say it still has some way to go. They play on every religious and festive occasion and we can hear them practising every Tuesday night if the wind is in the right (sorry, wrong) direction.
> 
> What those kids need is a good School of Rock where they can let rip and release their frustrations (I promise to soundproof the building when I start it up).
> 
> I believe flamenco dancers take six months just to learn the hand movements Mary. They start off with "picking an apple off a tree". Perhaps you and your OH can practice together with your Christmas oranges?


In Candas my Asturian village they let the bagpipe band practice in the lighthouse. Only the sea gulls get to enjoy practice nights 

The great thing about flamenco is you can join in with just palmas if you like. Whenever I get in a group with my guitar everyone has a great time. It's more like a party. Go on let your Bulerias rip


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Our village silver band is ... er ... well, it has improved lately, but let's say it still has some way to go. They play on every religious and festive occasion and we can hear them practising every Tuesday night if the wind is in the right (sorry, wrong) direction.
> 
> What those kids need is a good School of Rock where they can let rip and release their frustrations (I promise to soundproof the building when I start it up).
> 
> I believe flamenco dancers take six months just to learn the hand movements Mary. They start off with "picking an apple off a tree". Perhaps you and your OH can practice together with your Christmas oranges?




I'd be useless at flamenco...it requires passion, drama, flamboyance.....have you seen my photo?????  
I'm too 'English' in shape and temperament for fiery Latin dances, alas...
Now OH has some of those attributes but being Scottish is more likely to get her kilt out and do the Highland fling around the fruit bowl....


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

nigele2 said:


> In Candas my Asturian village they let the bagpipe band practice in the lighthouse. Only the sea gulls get to enjoy practice nights
> 
> The great thing about flamenco is you can join in with just palmas if you like. Whenever I get in a group with my guitar everyone has a great time. It's more like a party. Go on let your Bulerias rip


I'm not sure what bulerias are, Nigel, but if I had any they would be old and tired....


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I'd be useless at flamenco...it requires passion, drama, flamboyance.....have you seen my photo?????
> I'm too 'English' in shape and temperament for fiery Latin dances, alas...
> Now OH has some of those attributes but being Scottish is more likely to get her kilt out and do the Highland fling around the fruit bowl....


Passion, drama and flamboyance have nothing to do with age, size or shape, believe me! You should see the dancers at our feria on the Dia de Mujeres. I'm sure you are capable of all three.

A buleria is a complicated flamenco rhythm with 12 beats, where the 3rd, 7th, 8th, 10th and 12th beats are emphasised. I think kids round here are born with some innate ability but I still can't get it right.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I'm not sure what bulerias are, Nigel, but if I had any they would be old and tired....


If he had spelt it correctly with an accent on the 'i' (bulería(s) or the alternative bullerías which means noise din and is the flamenco style in which the male is allowed to leap.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

nigele2 said:


> In Candas my Asturian village they let the bagpipe band practice in the lighthouse. Only the sea gulls get to enjoy practice nights
> 
> The great thing about flamenco is you can join in with just palmas if you like. Whenever I get in a group with my guitar everyone has a great time. It's more like a party. Go on let your Bulerias rip


I want a gaita for Christmas !!!!:whoo: I used to play the tin whistle in an Irish band so I'm sure I could do the fingering and the rest is just knowing what to do with your elbow.

Then we should all get together for an evening of music and dance on Mary's terrace ...


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> If he had spelt it correctly with an accent on the 'i' (bulería(s) or the alternative bullerías which means noise din and is the flamenco style in which the male is allowed to leap.


 Never seen a gypsy worry about the accent 

But Bulerias is a palo as Alcaina says based on a 12 beat rhythm like many flamenco palos (Soleares , Fandango]. It has the most complex 'compas' [the emphasis of beats structure]. And the structure is not fixed.

However as the singer and dancer react to the moment the guitarist has to respond. It isn't fixed in format.

But it is hypnotic. Certainly it is in the blood of the gitanos. Just knuckles on a table and off they go. If you haven't tried it before give it a go. Do however give it time. It is like a drug and takes a little while to get addicted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAH17DNkDN0 Not the palmas (clapping) is not as simple as it first might look and the same goes for the 'ole's


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> I want a gaita for Christmas !!!!:whoo: I used to play the tin whistle in an Irish band so I'm sure I could get the fingering and the rest is just knowing what to do with your elbow.
> 
> Then we should all get together for an evening of music and dance on Mary's terrace ...


the last one of those I came across was in an alley. One look at those teeth, and I wasn't getting my finger anywhere near, let alone in[g] up to the elbow.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> the last one of those I came across was in an alley. One look at those teeth, and I wasn't getting my finger anywhere near, let alone in[g] up to the elbow.


 Oh stop it you lot, I need to get on!


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> Oh stop it you lot, I need to get on!


Now, Now Claire, you know we like to keep a smile on your face!


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Last one, promise not to bore everyone to death with flamenco but this video sums up so much of spain for me. The family, all ages, the bottles of San mig, the telly on, the rhythm maintained by the palmas more than the guitar. The smiles. The kids chatting.






Now I must go get my guitar and practice my Sevillanas. Haven't played it for a while and I think I'll be asked to perform in Madrid 

ps Alcalaina you might want to listen to my village band before you invest in gaites


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Nigel, your village gaita band made the hairs stand up on my neck, in the nicest possible way. I really love that sound!

Now listen to our silver band:


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

The silver band sound great. You could of given a few more seconds to the cow at the end though. Didn't look like a spanish cow 

Anyone know how many tons of sweets are thrown each year?


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

nigele2 said:


> The silver band sound great. You could of given a few more seconds to the cow at the end though. Didn't look like a spanish cow
> 
> Anyone know how many tons of sweets are thrown each year?


Excuse me, she is a Spanish cow! _Vaca retinta_ crossed with something, Hereford maybe? They breed them round here in the Alcornocales for beef, because they can live off poor vegetation and they don't mind the rocky terrain. 

Goodness knows about the sweets, five big sackfuls just in our village. Must be sponsored by dentists.

I hope nobody is on here expecting to read about youth unemployment. This is much more fun.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Excuse me, she is a Spanish cow! _Vaca retinta_ crossed with something, Hereford maybe? They breed them round here in the Alcornocales for beef, because they can live off poor vegetation and they don't mind the rocky terrain.
> 
> Goodness knows about the sweets, five big sackfuls just in our village. Must be sponsored by dentists.
> 
> I hope nobody is on here expecting to read about youth unemployment. This is much more fun.


Yes, it is. That sound from the Asturias reminded me of the folk music of the Polish Tatra mountain highlanders. I don't know how to post YouTube links but if you're interested, look up Zakopane, goralski, Tatra musicians etc.
I used to frequent a pub in North London near Hampstead/Highgate, where I lived in a small flat, which was unusual in that rather twee area in that it was a genuine working-class local. Every Friday and Saturday night and Sunday lunchtimes a large lady called Lil would play the old upright piano and all would sing such hallowed favourites as 'Susie sitting in the shoe-shine shop', 'Three Kings went up to Jerusalem', ' My old man said follow the van' and of course 'Nellie Dean' plus many others such. I had some of the best nights of my life there. I was doing my second degree at the time so I and my mates were regarded as a bit 'posh' but probably because of that were seen as being a bit simple-minded and so were taken under their wing and invited home to traditional Sunday lunches.
When I took my finals I got gloriously drunk on numerous glasses of barley wine paid for by the proud locals and collapsed into the jellied eel stall outside. I was incapacitated for three days afterwards and even now the smell of barley wine makes me feel ill....
I guess pubs like that are a rarity nowadays. But they are just as much a part of British folk culture as Polish goralski or Spanish flamenco. It's just that we don't cherish our traditions. Sadly.


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> Excuse me, she is a Spanish cow! _Vaca retinta_ crossed with something, Hereford maybe? They breed them round here in the Alcornocales for beef, because they can live off poor vegetation and they don't mind the rocky terrain.
> 
> Goodness knows about the sweets, five big sackfuls just in our village. Must be sponsored by dentists.
> 
> I hope nobody is on here expecting to read about youth unemployment. This is much more fun.


Speaking of Spanish vs. Non-Spanish cows, I really want to start a Highland Cattle farm here up north. Problem is, one can't do that then up and leave to visit "the mother land" every summer/random holidays. 

*sigh* 









Edit: This is on topic, I think the little cows are serious _ninis_.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Yes, it is. That sound from the Asturias reminded me of the folk music of the Polish Tatra mountain highlanders. I don't know how to post YouTube links but if you're interested, look up Zakopane, goralski, Tatra musicians etc.
> I used to frequent a pub in North London near Hampstead/Highgate, where I lived in a small flat, which was unusual in that rather twee area in that it was a genuine working-class local. Every Friday and Saturday night and Sunday lunchtimes a large lady called Lil would play the old upright piano and all would sing such hallowed favourites as 'Susie sitting in the shoe-shine shop', 'Three Kings went up to Jerusalem', ' My old man said follow the van' and of course 'Nellie Dean' plus many others such. I had some of the best nights of my life there. I was doing my second degree at the time so I and my mates were regarded as a bit 'posh' but probably because of that were seen as being a bit simple-minded and so were taken under their wing and invited home to traditional Sunday lunches.
> When I took my finals I got gloriously drunk on numerous glasses of barley wine paid for by the proud locals and collapsed into the jellied eel stall outside. I was incapacitated for three days afterwards and even now the smell of barley wine makes me feel ill....
> I guess pubs like that are a rarity nowadays. But they are just as much a part of British folk culture as Polish goralski or Spanish flamenco. It's just that we don't cherish our traditions. Sadly.


Absolutely, and to add insult to injury the British licensing laws now make it illegal to have live music in pubs unless you pay all sorts of additional charges, install fire escapes etc. 

They used to have something called the "two in a bar" rule, where if there were only one or two musicians playing you didn't need a music licence. This took no account of whether the sound was amplified or not. So some eejit with an electric guitar and a drum machine was fine, but three folkies with a flute, fiddle and mandolin were illegal. The pub where we used to play was visited by an Environmental Health Inspector (!) who said only two of us could play at once, so we used to wink in mid-tune and switch over. How daft is that.

Love the Polish stuff, Bulgarian music is great too. We will be singing villancicos in the local bar with our Spanish friends tomorrow afternoon ... give me live music any day!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

halydia said:


> Speaking of Spanish vs. Non-Spanish cows, I really want to start a Highland Cattle farm here up north. Problem is, one can't do that then up and leave to visit "the mother land" every summer/random holidays.
> 
> *sigh*
> 
> ...


I will come and babysit them for you Halidya! 

We had a llama farm down near Tarifa a couple of years ago but they have mysteriously disappeared.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Absolutely, and to add insult to injury the British licensing laws now make it illegal to have live music in pubs unless you pay all sorts of additional charges, install fire escapes etc.
> 
> They used to have something called the "two in a bar" rule, where if there were only one or two musicians playing you didn't need a music licence. This took no account of whether the sound was amplified or not. So some eejit with an electric guitar and a drum machine was fine, but three folkies with a flute, fiddle and mandolin were illegal. The pub where we used to play was visited by an Environmental Health Inspector (!) who said only two of us could play at once, so we used to wink in mid-tune and switch over. How daft is that.
> 
> Love the Polish stuff, Bulgarian music is great too. We will be singing villancicos in the local bar with our Spanish friends tomorrow afternoon ... give me live music any day!


I didn't know about those licensing laws....ridiculous. So where do you get to hear live music outside of the big venues? When I lived in London I was a regular at folk sessions at various small North London venues...The Pindar of Wakefield, Unity Theatre and others whose names I have forgotten. Those were the days...Leon Rosselson, Roy Bailey, Peggy Seeger, the American who wrote 'Little Boxes' and 'Little Red Hen' (with the memorable line'Those that don't work don't get fed...that's why they called her red') I think she was called Malise something. Once we heard Ewan McColl.
Then there was the Hound Dog Club in the Fishmongers Arms, Wood Green. That was really great. George Melly was a regular there. They also had rock'n'roll revival nights and one night Gene Vincent walked in.....
Ah those were the days..
Ou sont les neiges d'autretemps?......


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I didn't know about those licensing laws....ridiculous. So where do you get to hear live music outside of the big venues? When I lived in London I was a regular at folk sessions at various small North London venues...The Pindar of Wakefield, Unity Theatre and others whose names I have forgotten. Those were the days...Leon Rosselson, Roy Bailey, Peggy Seeger, the American who wrote 'Little Boxes' and 'Little Red Hen' (with the memorable line'Those that don't work don't get fed...that's why they called her red') I think she was called Malise something. Once we heard Ewan McColl.


:clap2: These people are my heroes! We had a healthy music scene in Oxford in the 70s and 80s and I met them all (except Malvina Reynolds, the one you couldn't remember). Roy Bailey stayed at our house once and kept us up all night eating toast and marmite. Peggy left Ewan's copious archives to the Ruskin College library, because she didn't want them going to the (elitist) Bodleian, and I volunteered to help sort them out, but they are still there gathering dust as far as I know.

The best places to hear and play music these days are folk festivals, which are big business, and the quality is getting higher and higher amongst young musicians and singers. Check out Eliza Carthy (Martin's daughter) on YouTube.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> :clap2: These people are my heroes! We had a healthy music scene in Oxford in the 70s and 80s and I met them all (except Malvina Reynolds, the one you couldn't remember). Roy Bailey stayed at our house once and kept us up all night eating toast and marmite. Peggy left Ewan's copious archives to the Ruskin College library, because she didn't want them going to the (elitist) Bodleian, and I volunteered to help sort them out, but they are still there gathering dust as far as I know.
> 
> The best places to hear and play music these days are folk festivals, which are big business, and the quality is getting higher and higher amongst young musicians and singers. Check out Eliza Carthy (Martin's daughter) on YouTube.


I've already looked at Eliza Carthy's Youtube stuff.....what a coincidence, Roy Bailey had dinner at our house once. Small world indeed. We were organising a festival to celebrate the 250th (I think) anniversary of Thomas Paine's birth and he and Leon took part.
I last heard Peggy S. at the 40th anniversary of the NHS do at Alexandra Palace...and now you're going to tell me you were there....


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## vixmafia (May 22, 2011)

hey 
I have a Question for all of you now can you tell me that if a student studying at a university and can he go for jobs for his part time it is possible for other country student who come here for studies / well One of my friend want to go for study in spain he lives in pakistan can he do job as well or it is easy for him to find a jobs or not .. because he is not spanish citizen so let me know about this in details ..


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

vixmafia said:


> hey
> I have a Question for all of you now can you tell me that if a student studying at a university and can he go for jobs for his part time it is possible for other country student who come here for studies / well One of my friend want to go for study in spain he lives in pakistan can he do job as well or it is easy for him to find a jobs or not .. because he is not spanish citizen so let me know about this in details ..


It is my understanding that if you are on a student visa especially from outside the EU the answer is a definite NO! But I have no doubt others can, and will, give a more comprehensive answer.


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