# minimum salary needed for family



## star77

Hi,

I hope you can help me. Can anybody give me an idea of what salary you would need for a family with two young children (2 1/2 and new born) living near Valencia? Specifically could anybody give me a break down on specific costs ie:

- Rent (3 bed, apartment, duplex or small house - with outside space) house insurance
- Utilities (including water, electricity, gas, communal charges, council taxes, etc.)
- Phone, mobiles (2 adults) broadband, landline
-Transport: running 2 cars (cost of second hand cars e.g 5-10 yrs old, a/c, one to be a people carrier type), tax, insurance, servicing, petrol - say 15 to 20 minute commute to and from work plus second car doing trips to shops, school, etc)
- Groceries - modest grocery bill sourcing mostly local produce
- Childcare - creche fees
- extras: eating out, taxis, babysitters, clothes, shoes, etc.

I'd be so grateful if someone could help me. We'd love to live in Spain but have to be realistic about providing for our family. We're not extravagant spenders but don't want to be living hand-to-mouth either. The main reasin for the move is an improvment in quality of life. Everybody is saying the cost of living has gone uo but is it so much so that living there is now a struggle for a single income family??

Any help or advice greatly appreciated


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## djfwells

Costs are so varied for products and services in Spain at the moment and can vary enormously from area to area and from service provider to service provider. It would be very difficult to give you an even half-way accurate estimation of costs, but I appreciate that you need this is order to make an important decision, so please bear with me and consider that other forum users may post completely different esimates :

- 3 bed Townhouse in Valencia Province (Outskirts, not City) 400-500 Euros p/m
- Contents Insurance - 15 p/m
- Water 20 p/m
- Elec 100 p/m (Average, depending upon season, method of heating & cooling in house etc..)
- Gas 40 p/m (see above)
- Municpal Taxes & Community Charges 60 p/m (Possibly the most likely to vary considerably from area to area)
- Broadband & 2 Mobiles - 60 p/m Upwards depending on useage (SHOP AROUND HERE !)

- Cars ? (Are you buying them here or bringing from UK and legally importing ? - If importing you will need to allow for the taxes & charges here, if not you will need to consider that the 2nd hand market means the cars tend to hold their value more than in the UK)
- Petrol - 1.275 p/Litre unleaded (Today)
- Insurance - (500 per car per year fully inc, full NCB, 300 Excess , 4 yr old)
- Car Tax - 100 per car per year ( Varies from Town to Town)
- Groceries ( 2 Adults, 2 Kids) 350 p/m
- Childcare ( I pay 150 p/m for 5 Mornings inc lunch in a Spanish Nursery - Times by 5 if looking at a UK Nursery)
- eating out, clothes etc.... - How long is a peice of string ? Budget 10 Euros per head at lunchtime, 20 Evenings and you can't go far wrong, cost of clothese very roughly same as UK.

I honestly think that you need to be looking at 1750- 1850 per month as a bare minimum, with a decent standard of savings to bring with you (Spanish bills can often come all at once and not make provision for payment by instalments as in the UK), You will have to allow for paying a premium for things until you get comfortable with your new surroundings and learn how to shop for the best deals.

Things you didn't mention :
- Schools costs (Lunches, books, transport etc... if state - even more if Private )
- Healthcare requirements
- Trips back to the UK
- Language lessons 

Unless you have a skilled or 'in demand' job, the salary that you would need is in excess of the average Spanish salary.


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## Alcalaina

> - Groceries ( 2 Adults, 2 Kids) 350 p/m


I think that's cutting it fine - with two kids I would allow €120 a week at least, more if you crave "exotic" British products like HP sauce!


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## mrypg9

And of course you need a job, if you haven't got one already secured.
Unemployment in Spain is now at 20% plus. There are four million Spaniards in the queue ahead of immigrants. Spaniards are going to Germany to find work.
If you haven't got a secure, well-paid job already lined up and speak no Spanish your chances of getting a job are, frankly, minimal.
But if you have such a job, I personally would say you would need at least 2000 euros a month to be on the safe side.
You may be able to rent a property for 500 euros but as has been said you have to factor in utilities which with phone and internet could amount to over 300 euros a month, fuel (not much cheaper than the UK) car tax, insurance, maintenance, replacing domestic items, clothing, entertainment...and that's before you have eaten! Then there's health care which you will not get for free and of course you will lose child benefit when you leave the UK.
People will tell you you can live here cheaply and indeed you can. The simple life is attractive if that's what floats your boat.
I personally would not see it as an improvement in my quality of life if I had to think about the cost of everything and worry because the car broke down and needed an expensive repair or a child was ill.


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## bob_bob

Does the average Spanish family take home two grand a month?


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## Alcalaina

bob_bob said:


> Does the average Spanish family take home two grand a month?


Not sure what the average Spanish family is, given the unemployment situation and the fact that many grown-up children still live at home. But two grand looks about right.

The national average gross annual salary is 18,087 euros (about €1500 a month) but 63% of those who have a job take home less than €1,100 a month. 


News from Spain: Average salary in Spain


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## mrypg9

bob_bob said:


> Does the average Spanish family take home two grand a month?


If there are several people working in the same household, yes.
And if not they are unlikely to have the same level of housing costs as British immigrants.
Life is always more expensive for foreigners, at first anyhow.
2000 euros a month is less than £22k a year at current rates which is below the average family income in the UK.
Hardly a fortune.


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## nigele2

bob_bob said:


> Does the average Spanish family take home two grand a month?


Not in my extended spanish family unless there are two working. For example my BIL works in a cooked meat and marisco factory. Starts at 5am, over 40 hours a week. Free ham at Xmas. Take home just under 1000Es. SIL (his wife) works for Madrid public sector, has to cross Madrid to work, job ends next month, take home just over 1100Es. They are over 40 and have experience.

But it is not so much the amount but the security of their jobs that worries them.

The biggest earners are my other SIL who works for an international drugs company but they are trying to force early retirement and renege on previously agreed settlement. And her husband was in the delivery to restaurant business. Did well as own truck and no need to pay much tax. But sadly his health has prevented him working and there is no ongoing social security. But in the good times they took home 3500+Es and haven't paid for an iberico that I can tell


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## gus-lopez

Alcalaina said:


> The national average gross annual salary is 18,087 euros (about €1500 a month) but 63% of those who have a job take home less than €1,100 a month.
> 
> 
> News from Spain: Average salary in Spain


I see we are still in the bottom 4, here in Murcia with 68.7%. It used to be over 80% mileuristas , still you can't really call it an improvement as many have probably lost there jobs so making the % look better !


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## 90199

The O.P. is in fact Irish, not U.K. or British


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## star77

Thanks so much everyone for your replies, particularly DJFWells for taking the time to put that comprehensive answer together!! 
I hope it will help other people as well as when you search "cost of living in spain" you mostly get comparisons to particular goods or services in the UK (e.g. the price of milk, beer, petrol, etc) but not the big picture of what it costs to run a household for a month!
My husband is thinking about applying for a teaching post in an International School in Valencia. I have read that salaries vary greatly in this sector but in general are not great! It's one thing taking a pay cut so long as the actual cost of living can be sustained on what you end up with. As mrypg9 says, there's no joy in being on the bread line even if the sun is shining! 
Incidentally - and maybe I should post this as another topic - does anyone have any knowledge of the International schools in Valencia (particularly Caxton College and Cambridge House International School) or have any recommendations for other International schools that have a reputation for looking after their staff? (We're not set on Valencia - it just happens that there are two jobs going there at the moment
Many thanks again for your answers, if we do get an offer from either of these schools the information will really help when the subject of salary comes up.


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## bob_bob

I asked about Spanish take home pay as there are many folk in the UK living on a lot less than £2k a month; to some not a lot of money to others a fare wage. Look at a newly qualified Nurse, 3 year degree, hits the wards working shifts that cover 24/7 and takes home about £1400 a month net.


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## djfwells

star77 said:


> Thanks so much everyone for your replies, particularly DJFWells for taking the time to put that comprehensive answer together!!
> I hope it will help other people as well as when you search "cost of living in spain" you mostly get comparisons to particular goods or services in the UK (e.g. the price of milk, beer, petrol, etc) but not the big picture of what it costs to run a household for a month!
> My husband is thinking about applying for a teaching post in an International School in Valencia. I have read that salaries vary greatly in this sector but in general are not great! It's one thing taking a pay cut so long as the actual cost of living can be sustained on what you end up with. As mrypg9 says, there's no joy in being on the bread line even if the sun is shining!
> Incidentally - and maybe I should post this as another topic - does anyone have any knowledge of the International schools in Valencia (particularly Caxton College and Cambridge House International School) or have any recommendations for other International schools that have a reputation for looking after their staff? (We're not set on Valencia - it just happens that there are two jobs going there at the moment
> Many thanks again for your answers, if we do get an offer from either of these schools the information will really help when the subject of salary comes up.


I was chatting to a large group of friends from Valencia city at the weekend, and some of the parents sent their kids to both of the schools that you mention. They were both raving about thestandard of education and the schools themselves and I was shocked that some of the other parents were jealous because their kids had been on the waiting list for quite some time.
Waiting list ? - I thought we were in the middle of a recession - who turns business away ?

- Anyway, I'm guessing that any schools that appear to be doing so well nee dto attract the best staff and need to look after the one that they have ?


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## star77

djfwells said:


> I was chatting to a large group of friends from Valencia city at the weekend, and some of the parents sent their kids to both of the schools that you mention. They were both raving about thestandard of education and the schools themselves and I was shocked that some of the other parents were jealous because their kids had been on the waiting list for quite some time.
> Waiting list ? - I thought we were in the middle of a recession - who turns business away ?
> 
> - Anyway, I'm guessing that any schools that appear to be doing so well nee dto attract the best staff and need to look after the one that they have ?


Great to know - thanks!!


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## mrypg9

bob_bob said:


> I asked about Spanish take home pay as there are many folk in the UK living on a lot less than £2k a month; to some not a lot of money to others a fare wage. Look at a newly qualified Nurse, 3 year degree, hits the wards working shifts that cover 24/7 and takes home about £1400 a month net.


You are quite right. The mode is much less than the average and far too many people in the UK live on far too little.
But living on less in the sun is not a sensible option for a family.
Imagining that you can come to Spain seeking a job speaking no Spanish and perhaps with no skills or professional qualifications that are in demand here is perhaps OK for a single young person with no responsibilities or commitments. At best you'll get a holiday with a few weeks' casual work and a lot of experience of the realities of life.
At worst you'll be penniless and hitch-hiking home.
But for a family to make such a move without a secure job guarantee is sheer irresponsibility.
It's all very well to tell people that they may be lucky, some people do succeed. 
Of course some do.
But at this point in time the fact is that most don't and won't.
I think that anyone giving this advice should also add: 'And if after three months you have not found a job I will personally guarantee to maintain you and your family until you do'.
That would stop loose talk.


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## bob_bob

Spot on mrypg9. My question was out of passing interest to be honest. You see all these villas and apartments going for £xxxxx and I wondered what a typical family live on in Spain as I've never thought of it as a rich country.

As I've said in another post there is no way I would move to Spain these days without money to support myself; I'm very lucky in that I've a good pension(s) and in all honesty can live where I want within reason but the younger folk of today have a steep hill to climb where they can be in a similar position. My daughter and partner look to be emigrating to Canada where there is work for nurses and teachers and they go with my blessing.


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## mrypg9

bob_bob said:


> Spot on mrypg9. My question was out of passing interest to be honest. You see all these villas and apartments going for £xxxxx and I wondered what a typical family live on in Spain as I've never thought of it as a rich country.
> 
> As I've said in another post there is no way I would move to Spain these days without money to support myself; I'm very lucky in that I've a good pension(s) and in all honesty can live where I want within reason but the younger folk of today have a steep hill to climb where they can be in a similar position. My daughter and partner look to be emigrating to Canada where there is work for nurses and teachers and they go with my blessing.


Good luck with Canada...
If they have researched the requirements for being given permission to live/work in Canada they will have found it difficult, unless the rules have changed.
I have close family in Canada, am fluent French-speaking, have a profession,university degrees, owned property in Canada..yet I would have found it very difficult if not impossible to be allowed to work there.
Canada used to and probably still does operate a points system. Unlike the U K which has to have an open border policy to most of the EU, they look to areas with skills shortages.
Difficulties in getting residential status and thereby state health care put us off retiring in Canada, even though we had bought a place there with the intention of so doing- a converted woollen mill in the Ottawa Valley.
I'm like you...sufficient retirement income from various sources including from sale of all the properties we owned both residential and commercial. We own no property so can move whenever we wish. Three years in Prague, France next stop in a few years time.
You are right..Spain is not a rich country and most British immigrants are not wealthy in the sense that they are High Net Worth Individuals -HNWIs in today's parlance.
We're certainly not wealthy and we curse low interest and poor sterling exchange rates. But we don't have to worry about paying the bills or whether we can afford to get the car mended and things like that.
I could not possibly enjoy life in Spain or anywhere if I had such worries. Not even wall-to-wall sunshine could fix that.
And sterling down again because of Osborne's increased tax on the banks and the poor, worse than expected balance of trade figures. The weak £ strategy doesn't seem to be working.


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## star77

mrypg9 said:


> But for a family to make such a move without a secure job guarantee is sheer irresponsibility.


Well we certainly won't be dong that! No job no go!! The whole reason I'm so concerned is because I have limited Spanish and don't want to count on finding a job after my baby is born (currently pregnant with second child)

Just in relation to childcare - €150 pm seems great value. Is this a subsidised rate for working mothers or the price you pay even if you're not working? I take it there is no Child Benefit in Spain.
Also, you were saying used cars hold their value better - can you recommend any 2nd hand car websites where I could get an idea of prices? Same for rental property websites?


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## mrypg9

star77 said:


> Well we certainly won't be dong that! No job no go!! The whole reason I'm so concerned is because I have limited Spanish and don't want to count on finding a job after my baby is born (currently pregnant with second child)
> 
> Just in relation to childcare - €150 pm seems great value. Is this a subsidised rate for working mothers or the price you pay even if you're not working? I take it there is no Child Benefit in Spain.
> Also, you were saying used cars hold their value better - can you recommend any 2nd hand car websites where I could get an idea of prices? Same for rental property websites?


Well, you won't get Child Benefit in Spain or free health care until you have qualified with the required level of contribution. 
As for child care...you would equally not qualify for a subsidy until you have paid into the system.
As for cars...there are many possible snares and traps in buying a used vehicle here. There are threads devoted to that topic.
We bought a LHD vehicle on Spanish plates from a reputable UK firm and transferred it to our ownership here. A simple process as we had all the necessary documents.
There are thousands of rental websites - google your preferred area.
But to rent a property you need to be on the spot, here in Spain.
The rental market also has its dangers for the unwary...
As we found out when we first arrived.


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## Alcalaina

bob_bob said:


> Spot on mrypg9. My question was out of passing interest to be honest. You see all these villas and apartments going for £xxxxx and I wondered what a typical family live on in Spain as I've never thought of it as a rich country.


Like everywhere else, there are some very wealthy families in Spain. It is not unusual for people to live in a city and also own a plot of land and a house in the country, or a villa by the coast. They are a minority of course, but there is definitely money around.


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## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> Like everywhere else, there are some very wealthy families in Spain. It is not unusual for people to live in a city and also own a plot of land and a house in the country, or a villa by the coast. They are a minority of course, but there is definitely money around.


The rich, like the poor, are always with us. Even in the Czech Republic most city dwellers own a cottage -often a crumbling ruin with no sanitation or electricity - to which they repair at weekends. Our neighbours have a finca in the campo: she is a primary school teacher, he owns/drives a truck and brings produce from Morocco.
The definition of a HNWI is usually taken to be one with liquid assets in excess of £1million.
I would say that there are some not far away who would fit in that category but most people around here are solid middle class who like everyone are fearful for their jobs or businesses and who do not have the assets they might once confidently have expected to have. Benahavis, just five minutes or so down the road, which is apparently the wealthiest village in the province, has a per capita income of under 25k euros annually. 
This is regarded as a 'wealthy' area of Spain with Marbella and Sotogrande within a few km but I don't see signs of what most people would regard as real wealth.
Not like parts of London, Paris, Rome or Berlin for example.


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## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> The rich, like the poor, are always with us. Even in the Czech REpublic most city dwellers own a cottage -often a crumbling ruin with no sanitation or electricity - to which they repair at weekends.
> The definition of a HNWI is usually taken to be one with liquid assets in excess of £1million.
> I would say that there are some who would fit in that category but most people around here are solid middle class who like everyone are fearful for their jobs or businesses and who do not have the assets they might once confidently have expected to have.
> This is regarded as a 'wealthy' area of Spain with Marbella and Sotogrande within a few km but I don't see signs of what most people would regard as real wealth.
> Not like parts of London, Paris, Rome or Berlin for example.


Well it's all relative I suppose. My definition of wealthy is having more houses than you actually need.


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## djfwells

Alcalaina said:


> Well it's all relative I suppose. My definition of wealthy is having more houses than you actually need.


When I look at other families in our village they are almost always multi-generational Households.
Quite often Mum and Dad will either go out to work, or run the family business (if longstanding then usually no rent or mortgage), Grandad will pick the Kids up from school (No need to pay a childminder or bus fees) and Grandma will help cook and clean ( No paying for cleaner, and time to shop around the market stalls for local produce and good deals).
When the grandparents are also chipping in their pensions, and the family lives in a House that has been passed down the generations and the mortgage has long since been paid off, it is easy to see why some Spanish families are able to live very comfortably on relatively low incomes.

Of course, I'm generalising about a certain portion of families in my local, rural village...


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## Alcalaina

djfwells said:


> When I look at other families in our village they are almost always multi-generational Households.
> Quite often Mum and Dad will either go out to work, or run the family business (if longstanding then usually no rent or mortgage), Grandad will pick the Kids up from school (No need to pay a childminder or bus fees) and Grandma will help cook and clean ( No paying for cleaner, and time to shop around the market stalls for local produce and good deals).
> When the grandparents are also chipping in their pensions, and the family lives in a House that has been passed down the generations and the mortgage has long since been paid off, it is easy to see why some Spanish families are able to live very comfortably on relatively low incomes.
> 
> Of course, I'm generalising about a certain portion of families in my local, rural village...


Yes, it's the same here. And Spain has very high owner-occupation rates - 81%, of which 70% are owned outright with no mortgage.


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## djfwells

Alcalaina said:


> Yes, it's the same here. And Spain has very high owner-occupation rates - 81%, of which 70% are owned outright with no mortgage.


Alcalaina : Do you work for the INE, or are you just fond of statistics ? On occassions like this I just make them up and hope that nobody notices.


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## Alcalaina

djfwells said:


> Alcalaina : Do you work for the INE, or are you just fond of statistics ? On occassions like this I just make them up and hope that nobody notices.


I don't work for anybody any more, but yes I am rather fond of statistics! 

I did an article on housing for my blog a few weeks ago and found the figures when I was researching for that. They aren't all in my head.


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## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> Well it's all relative I suppose. My definition of wealthy is having more houses than you actually need.


'Need' and 'want' are both very subjective concepts, though. 
At one time we owned houses other than the one we actually lived in but one was mortgaged and intended as a retirement property.
And why fix on houses? How about more pairs of shoes, more cars, more tvs?
Many people, especially in this area, appear wealthy but fit into what I love to call the ten-bob millionaire category or as my crude old Gran would have put it, All fur coat and no drawers.
Concepts such as 'rich' and 'poor' are all relative. I get annoyed when I hear talk of 'child poverty' in the UK. Poverty to me is Ethiopia, Sudan and so on.
What we have in the UK and to a lesser extent in Spain is inequality which is a different matter altogether.
Poverty in its true sense should NEVER be tolerated.
But it is a matter of debate as to the degree of inequality a civilised society should tolerate.


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## gus-lopez

Even here most Spaniards that live in apartments also have a casa de campo. Some even have two or three , & a large majority also have an apartment down the playa in Águilas. In this area it's very rare for a spaniard to sell property/land that normally comes from inheritance. They might rent them out or leave them empty but rarely sell. Wealth is still dominated by how much land you have. There are many exceedingly wealthy people here ,rich beyond most peoples dreams. I just wonder where it all comes from ?


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## nigele2

gus-lopez said:


> I just wonder where it all comes from ?


Corruption? Not paying taxes? I'm still amazed that my spanish lawyer when I bought my spanish flat (this was a spanish transaction in my wifes name) asked us in front of 5 people, "what price would you like to have officially paid?"


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## gus-lopez

nigele2 said:


> Corruption? Not paying taxes? I'm still amazed that my spanish lawyer when I bought my spanish flat (this was a spanish transaction in my wifes name) asked us in front of 5 people, "what price would you like to have officially paid?"


Yes, when we bought the official price went down by 200,000 pesetas after the buyer asked the notary what was the minimum increase in value that he would accept ! It just seems to me that the wealth of some is so extravagant that they are unlikely to be tax evaders . Then again , being Spain I suppose it's possible. Another fascination is the amount of youngsters that are driving cars that at no stretch of the imagination can they afford to insure , let alone buy! Apparently sales of Audis were up in Lorca by 67% last year & we haven't even got an official Audi dealer ! Porsche is another good seller without a dealer .


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## bob_bob

mrypg9 said:


> Good luck with Canada...
> If they have researched the requirements for being given permission to live/work in Canada they will have found it difficult, unless the rules have changed.
> I have close family in Canada, am fluent French-speaking, have a profession,university degrees, owned property in Canada..yet I would have found it very difficult if not impossible to be allowed to work there.
> Canada used to and probably still does operate a points system. Unlike the U K which has to have an open border policy to most of the EU, they look to areas with skills shortages.
> Difficulties in getting residential status and thereby state health care put us off retiring in Canada, even though we had bought a place there with the intention of so doing- a converted woollen mill in the Ottawa Valley.
> I'm like you...sufficient retirement income from various sources including from sale of all the properties we owned both residential and commercial. We own no property so can move whenever we wish. Three years in Prague, France next stop in a few years time.
> You are right..Spain is not a rich country and most British immigrants are not wealthy in the sense that they are High Net Worth Individuals -HNWIs in today's parlance.
> We're certainly not wealthy and we curse low interest and poor sterling exchange rates. But we don't have to worry about paying the bills or whether we can afford to get the car mended and things like that.
> I could not possibly enjoy life in Spain or anywhere if I had such worries. Not even wall-to-wall sunshine could fix that.
> And sterling down again because of Osborne's increased tax on the banks and the poor, worse than expected balance of trade figures. The weak £ strategy doesn't seem to be working.


Son in law is a teacher so harder for him but my daughter is a nurse and its a lot easier for her as the Canadians recruit in the UK anyway. My nephew applied for a psych nurse post in New Zealand...his interview was over telephone and he was out there working in a matter of weeks (and he ain't coming back lol).

Tp be an HMWI needs a million? Yes I would imagine so these days. It sounds so much but in reality many people sell a couple of houses, cop a nice pension lump sum and bingo, £1,000,000 in the pot. The problem is how much is a million worth in twenty years time.


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## mrypg9

bob_bob said:


> Son in law is a teacher so harder for him but my daughter is a nurse and its a lot easier for her as the Canadians recruit in the UK anyway. My nephew applied for a psych nurse post in New Zealand...his interview was over telephone and he was out there working in a matter of weeks (and he ain't coming back lol).
> 
> Tp be an HMWI needs a million? Yes I would imagine so these days. It sounds so much but in reality many people sell a couple of houses, cop a nice pension lump sum and bingo, £1,000,000 in the pot. The problem is how much is a million worth in twenty years time.


But a million in liquid assets.. not property, pension pot.
There are many of them around but not as many in Spain as people imagine.
After all, who is 'wealthy' is a matter of comparison.
Compared to my hippy friend who lives in a shack on the campo I am wealthy beyond dreams.
Compared to Tamara Mellon or Roman Abramovich I am a pauper.
A rich person is someone who has more disposable wealth than I. Much more.


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## gus-lopez

What fascinates me on the Canadian list of 29 occupations is hairdressing ? It's the same for Australia & they want carpet fitters also ? I just can't believe that there can be a shortage to the extent that you want them from other countries.


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## bob_bob

If your a nurse and are willing to work in remoter parts of Canada the pay is very very good indeed.

With the house buying boom of the 80's inherited wealth is increasing in the UK. Wales always had a good rate of home ownership and although some of the housing stock was not great it was owned. Its not uncommon here for a youngster perhaps to inherit some property or a share quite early on in life.

We inherited a bungalow two years ago and thankfully my two children have been sensible with their shares and not run off and bought a Porche lol. My lad is a tight fisted ****** anyway but for my daughter her bit will be a very nice 'set up' fund in Canada so at least she won't turn up as the 'poor relative' so to speak.


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