# Not happy



## jellybelly

I have found so many ex pats un happy ? why - because you bought when the pound was strong or because age and the cost of living when the pound was strong and now not what you thought you bought into.


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## XTreme

jellybelly said:


> I have found so many ex pats un happy ? why


Because the vast majority are completely and utterly out of their depth.

The safety blanket has been taken away, the perceived status and importance that they had in Britain is now gone.....and the only thing that matters is what YOU can do now.


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## youngagepensioner

I was not unhappy in Spain, but it was never home and I am glad I have returned to the UK, because it IS home.


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## jellybelly

*Unhappy*



youngagepensioner said:


> I was not unhappy in Spain, but it was never home and I am glad I have returned to the UK, because it IS home.


We are in our mid fifty's and looking for a better life in Spain - why were you so unhappy and came back to this uk where it is not as it once used to be


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## donz

it depends on who you speak to and where. Many people that are happy don't necessarily write on forums very much or are necessarily even online lol!

Ever heard of that saying that you only get feedback when there's a problem? Not when everything is ok? I often find that - people don't SAY when things are hunky dory or when they are pleased with a service, only when they are dissatisfied.

I think there are plenty of happy people here, but you just hear more from the whingers or the ones where things went very wrong 

I am VERY happy here - this is much more home to me than anywhere ever has been. We planned very carefully are working our backsides off to ensure we keep our heads above water - we have an income, beautiful weather, beautiful place to live - what's to complain about


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## NickZ

jellybelly said:


> We are in our mid fifty's and looking for a better life in Spain -


I always find threads like this a bit strange. Unless you find your twin what makes others happy or unhappy isn't always a good reflection of what will happen to you.

OTOH people looking for a better life are often more likely to end up unhappy. Depending on what you don't like about your current life why would moving make the grass greener? Moving tends to be fairly stressful if all you do is cross the road.


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## xabiaxica

NickZ said:


> I always find threads like this a bit strange. Unless you find your twin what makes others happy or unhappy isn't always a good reflection of what will happen to you.
> 
> OTOH *people looking for a better life are often more likely to end up unhappy. *Depending on what you don't like about your current life why would moving make the grass greener? Moving tends to be fairly stressful if all you do is cross the road.


hear hear 

we didn't come here looking for a better life - just a different one

I don't know why the OP thinks so many of us are unhappy - certainly _most of us on this forum aren't unhappy
_
which doesn't mean life is perfect - nor that we would recommend anyone who needs to work to come here atm

it's a great place for anyone with a secure income

but if you need to earn a living ........... & you'd be giving up a decent living wherever you are now............. it's just not the best time to be doing it

lots of careful planning & research, getting to know the ins & outs of the legalities of moving here & the hoops you'd need to jump through - that can only help make it easier.............. but it doesn't mean you'd be happy


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## xabiaxica

jellybelly said:


> We are in our mid fifty's and looking for a better life in Spain - why were you so unhappy and came back to this uk where it is not as it once used to be


she specifically she *wasn't *unhappy in Spain :confused2:


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## jojo

I loved living in Spain, but it was nothing like I thought it would be. Its not a better life and never really has been. Its a harsh country and its not how people think it is - a life long holiday of sitting by the pool, cheap cost of living, no commitments and a bit of work here and there to pay the bills. The better "quality of life" comment always puzzles me, why would it be???

In the end, life is what you make it and the things you find hard and annoying in the UK are the things you'll either take with you or wish you could have! You shouldnt move to Spain because you dont like the UK - apart from the summer weather, its no better. 

Thats why some expats seem unhappy - they thought it would be their dream and it isnt. They thought they could run away and escape the rat race, but they couldnt, Someone once said on here "the grass is greener on the other side, but it still needs mowing"

That all said, you can have a wonderful life in Spain, if you plan carefully, have finances in place and are fully informed, then it can be wonderful - but you have to have had a good life before

Jo xxx


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## jimenato

jellybelly said:


> I have found so many ex pats un happy ? why - because you bought when the pound was strong or because age and the cost of living when the pound was strong and now not what you thought you bought into.


Where and how have you found all these unhappy expats?


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## dunmovin

jimenato said:


> Where and how have you found all these unhappy expats?


It doesn't matter which country you are in, which country they came from,you will always find expats who are not happy and they tend to congregate in the same places/bars/cafes etc. ( a miserable opinion shared, can soon become a "general"opinion... add a few journalists to the mix and it becomes "the expat" opinion)

What I find absolutely crazy is,why do people move abroad, looking for a better life,then find there is a different set of problems(happens no matter where you go), then complain that the country the chose was a wrong decision and they want to go "Home" (to the same problems thay wanted to escape from and they fail to take account of the fact that things will have got worse at "Home")

The facts(as NOT reported in the press,as it doesn't cater to the "moanalots"), are there is a huge amount of us, who are happy.

Why? because we planned well, decided to make the best of what we have, and chose to not to "import/impose" our values/expectations on the locals


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## neddie

...there are any number of reasons that people may not be 'happy' and the reasons are the same no matter from whence the person originated or where the person went.

a) Nine times out of ten times the reason is that they did not do their homework thoroughly and things turned out not as "envisioned" 
b) They didn't 'test the waters' properly. Until recently i was keen to retire to Uruguay and expats i met on trips there emphasized the importance of living in the country for 6 to 12 months _before _ taking the plunge.
c) Many want to live the life style that they had 'back home'.....they are not prepared to adapt to a different way of life or to try to learn the language and customs
d) Some find it difficult or are shy to make friends with the locals
e) Some who did everything right still find that they yearn for the things they enjoyed in the 'mother country' and head back home.......i don't fault them, for at least they tried. 

After all, you only get a genuine English pub in England, Aussie rules football in Australia, dulce de leche in Argentina...........and some people miss that !!!!


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## dunmovin

neddie said:


> ...there are any number of reasons that people may not be 'happy' and the reasons are the same no matter from whence the person originated or where the person went.
> 
> a) Nine times out of ten times the reason is that they did not do their homework thoroughly and things turned out not as "envisioned"
> b) They didn't 'test the waters' properly. Until recently i was keen to retire to Uruguay and expats i met on trips there emphasized the importance of living in the country for 6 to 12 months _before _ taking the plunge.
> c) Many want to live the life style that they had 'back home'.....they are not prepared to adapt to a different way of life or to try to learn the language and customs
> d) Some find it difficult or are shy to make friends with the locals
> e) Some who did everything right still find that they yearn for the things they enjoyed in the 'mother country' and head back home.......i don't fault them, for at least they tried.
> 
> After all, you only get a genuine English pub in England, Aussie rules football in Australia, dulce de leche in Argentina...........and some people miss that !!!!


Agreed on all....with the exception of dulce de leche in Argentina.....only had the Spanish version and like it


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## dunmovin

neddie said:


> .
> 
> Nine times out of ten times the reason is that they did not do their homework thoroughly and things turned out not as "envisioned"
> Many want to live the life style that they had 'back home'.....they are not prepared to adapt to a different way of life or to try to learn the language and customs
> Some who did everything right still find that they yearn for the things they enjoyed in the 'mother country' and head back home.......i don't fault them, for at least they tried.
> 
> After all, you only get a genuine English pub in England, Aussie rules football in Australia, dulce de leche in Argentina...........and some people miss that !!!!


Apologies for "triming" your post in the quote.(all of your points are valid).
And I agree 100%

What it comes down to, is if you not prepared to adapt, sacrifice a few "home country" comforts..... DON'T do it


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## mrypg9

jellybelly said:


> I have found so many ex pats un happy ? why - because you bought when the pound was strong or because age and the cost of living when the pound was strong and now not what you thought you bought into.




You mix with the wrong kind of people. I find more miserable, depressed and aggressive people in the UK than in Spain. If immigrants here knew more Spanish people and got more involved in 'normal' i.e. Spanish life and community goings-on maybe they would be more satisfied with their lives.

We came here four years ago with money in the bank from the sale of commercial and domestic properties in the UK and abroad. We have more than adequate incomes as retirees and although we're no way wealthy we knew before coming to Spain that we could weather any currency fluctuations. We chose not to buy but preferred to rent the kind of house we could never afford -and wouldn't want to buy.

The kind of dissatisfied immigrants you seem to have spent time with - personally I'd steer clear of people like that - would I guess fall into specific categories: the 'chancers' who thought they could live the 'Spanish dream' on two-pence three-farthings and no skills or Spanish; the elderly with little real experience of 'abroad', such experience as they had being of everything-done-for-you package holidays...these people speak little if any Spanish and live in the Little Britains dotted all over the coast and came to Spain with barely adequate pension income; and the genuinely unfortunate who have lost jobs or businesses because of the crisis.

Then there are people who would be dissatisfied with their lives whether they were in Marbella, Macclesfield or Moscow...because they are life's losers.

You don't need to have the IQ of Stephen Hawking to understand that economic conditions change and currencies fluctuate. No-one has a 'right' to live abroad. If you choose to do so then you should exercise due diligence and plan for all foreseeable contingencies. That in plain terms means ensure you are financially cushioned and can survive most of the economic 'disasters' that can happen anywhere in the world.

That may sound harsh but I find it hard to work up any general across-the-board sympathy for moaning immigrants, whether British, German, Dutch, whatever. Switch on your Sky tv news and you'll see people all over the world with real problems....they might well have a great deal to whinge about but they don't have that luxury of whining to other immigrants in a bar over a cheap Spanish brandy...their lives are too fraught to do that.


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## Minerva.909

Being an expat - especially a serial expat - is a lot of fun. Parafrazing famous Goethe's comments about foreign languages (soviel Sprachen du sprichsts, sooftmal bist du Mensch) one could say: you become a new human being with every country in which you live!


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## xabiaxica

jimenato said:


> Where and how have you found all these unhappy expats?



in Essex apparently - jellybelly doesn't live in Spain (yet?) so I can't imagine s/he has mixed with very many expats to any great extent



mrypg9 said:


> You mix with the wrong kind of people. .


there's nothing wrong with people in Essex (all my OH's family are there ) - they're not expats in Spain though, are they?

IMO the OP's perception of the majority of expats in Spain is unsound


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## jimenato

There are unhappy people all over the world and for many different reasons. Mary is spot on with her first comment. 



> You mix with the wrong kind of people. I find more miserable, depressed and aggressive people in the UK than in Spain.


The people I mix with here in Spain are no unhappier than those I meet in the UK - in fact quite the opposite. I suspect that many of those who are unhappy expats would be unhappy stay-at-homes as well.

There are, of course, a few who are unhappy _because_ they are expats - sadly it appears that DunWorkin is one. It's bound to happen from time-to-time and often no amount of forward planning can avoid it.

When we first came to Spain in 2000, had we done any planning (we didn't - we didn't even know we were coming to Spain until we arrived here) there is no way we could have foreseen the current crisis and someone planning now cannot possibly know how this crisis (or the next one) is going to pan out.

Things change in unexpected ways. It would be amazing if there were no casualties.


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## Stravinsky

I've been on expat forums now for (God knows why sometimes) six years or so. I've seen people come and go. Some love it in Spain, some dont. In those six years a lot has changed, especially the economic climate and the rate of exchange

There can be many side line reasons why people end up unhappy here. It's difficult to be specific because everyone is an individual and they expect different things.

However there is one thing that seems to be a constant is this. Some come to this country because they are trying to escape something. They tell how horrible the UK is now, and they fantasize about a new wonderful way of life in the sun. I usually only say one thing to people with that view point. Forget it! 

I'm lucky I guess. I dont need to work so I dont need to rely on someone else giving me an income. From my point of view though sometimes that means I can get very bored . But for those coming here to escape the drudgery and way of life in the UK then I can only give you my favourite retort: Same sh!t, different place.

Xtreme is in some ways right. People come here and expect it to be sweetness and light but in reality it can be stressful and (especially when you first arrive) you will find all kinds of challenges and obstacles thrown in your way and end up out of your depth.

So I guess my answer is that they come here to escape something they are used to and want to escape for some reason, and come to another country expecting that things will be completely different and wonderful .......... and I'm afraid to tell them that simply isn't the case. When they get here and discover that, it's often too late, and they end up being unhappy in a sunny place.


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## jellybelly

I find it quite funny how quick some senior !! ex pats jump on a question or remark and seem to wont to belittle or attack. Most people who have made it work in Spain are very pleasant with useful information.
No we are looking to escape but seek the sunshine and are still willing to work hard for ourselves and contribute to the spanish tax etc. In our early fifty's grown up kids's - now is our time for a change.


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## xabiaxica

jellybelly said:


> I find it quite funny how quick some senior !! ex pats jump on a question or remark and seem to wont to belittle or attack. Most people who have made it work in Spain are very pleasant with useful information.
> No we are looking to escape but seek the sunshine and are still willing to work hard for ourselves and contribute to the spanish tax etc. In our early fifty's grown up kids's - now is our time for a change.


as I said in my very first reply to your very first post here ..........


xabiachica said:


> :welcome:
> 
> there's nothing stopping you - get yourself over here



I will qualify that now that you have given more info though


don't necessarily expect life to be better - and sunshine doesn't necessarily mean happiness, although I admit constant grey skies & rain can be pretty depressing - so can month after month of seriously high humidity so that you feel like you're living in a sauna, causing some people breathing problems - stopping most people getting a decent night sleep & making it uncomfortable even just walking down the road to the shops! 

my point is that life is certainly _different _here - and for someone retired with a decent nest egg & the good health to enjoy it, then the weather will certainly make it more pleasant

if you're _working _though, even for yourself, it's unlikely to be better really - the challenges & irritations of daily life will likely be greater 

though I suppose on your day off you can at least sit in the sun


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## jellybelly

Our business is internet based and takes approx. 3/4 hours a day starting at 6 a.m. all be it 7 days a week - but hey it pays the bills and gives us a very good income. We will rent at first and then look to buy if it is right for us and at last be mortgage free with money in the bank. At present we still have 10 yrs of mortgage left - so maybe that is a bonus if we do invest in spanish property - we know prices are still falling and are in contact with agencies out there. We are not looking through rose tinted glasses and do realise Spain has probelms to.
Eyes wide open here.


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## xabiaxica

jellybelly said:


> Our business is internet based and takes approx. 3/4 hours a day starting at 6 a.m. all be it 7 days a week - but hey it pays the bills and gives us a very good income. We will rent at first and then look to buy if it is right for us and at last be mortgage free with money in the bank. At present we still have 10 yrs of mortgage left - so maybe that is a bonus if we do invest in spanish property - we know prices are still falling and are in contact with agencies out there. We are not looking through rose tinted glasses and do realise Spain has probelms to.
> Eyes wide open here.


that sounds like a plan

don't forget to make sure you find a good gestor wherever you end up - a good one is worth his weight in gold - mine does everything but teach my classes & write my invoices for me for very little a month

that's my tax returns & everything - if you're living here you'll need to do tax returns here, no matter where your business is - it might be that it's better in the long run to register the business here - it might not - who knows?


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## mrypg9

jellybelly said:


> I find it quite funny how quick some senior !! ex pats jump on a question or remark and seem to wont to belittle or attack. Most people who have made it work in Spain are very pleasant with useful information.
> No we are looking to escape but seek the sunshine and are still willing to work hard for ourselves and contribute to the spanish tax etc. In our early fifty's grown up kids's - now is our time for a change.



Depends on the remark, doesn't it......Most remarks get the responses they deserve. You seemed to think that we are all unhappy with our lives in Spain...as I said, that might be the case with the people you've encountered but it isn't the case for 99% of happy immigrants.

You have sunshine in the UK today - a rarity I know - but no doubt you are aware of how difficult it is to find work in Spain at the present time? Willingness to work hard doesn't count for much when over five million other people looking for jobs are also willing to work hard, especially if they have young families to consider.

Thankfully the Spanish Government, like the British Government, has made it more difficult for those wishing to emigrate to Spain to come on a wing and a prayer, as it were. Anyone wishing to live permanently in Spain has to show they have sufficient income and medical cover. About time too...if that had been the case earlier, who knows, you may have come across fewer unhappy immigrants.

I've just read your post in which you say you have an internet-based business...that certainly makes it easier work-wise. As you will have been paying UK taxes you will be eligible for free health care for a period -I think it's two years? - then assuming a you have paid tax to qualify, you will be entitled to Spanish health care.

The most sensible course at this time is to rent as you are planning to do and keep a UK property should you find you too are unhappy with life in Spain.
And when you are here, keep away from whingeing Brits - they tend to depress one. But you will soon find they are an atypical minority.


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## Alcalaina

Please don't pay too much attention to all those reports in the media about unhappy expats caught out by changing exchange rates. They appear with depressing regularity, but they are usually based on banks surveying their customers with questions like "How has the changing exchange rate affected your quality of life"? 

Most sensible people just tighten their belts and wait for the rate to become favourable again (like it is now). After all, the things they are apparently here for - sun, sea and sand - are free.  I firmly believe it is possible to live better on a lower income in Spain than in the UK.

Some people move to Spain because they have had nice holidays here, But life isn't one long holiday, if you have that attitude you can start to feel bored and aimless after a while. Just like when you retire and stay in the UK - it's important to keep setting yourself challenges and give your life some sort of structure.


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## jellybelly

mrypg9 said:


> Depends on the remark, doesn't it......Most remarks get the responses they deserve. You seemed to think that we are all unhappy with our lives in Spain...as I said, that might be the case with the people you've encountered but it isn't the case for 99% of happy immigrants.
> 
> You have sunshine in the UK today - a rarity I know - but no doubt you are aware of how difficult it is to find work in Spain at the present time? Willingness to work hard doesn't count for much when over five million other people looking for jobs are also willing to work hard, especially if they have young families to consider.
> 
> Thankfully the Spanish Government, like the British Government, has made it more difficult for those wishing to emigrate to Spain to come on a wing and a prayer, as it were. Anyone wishing to live permanently in Spain has to show they have sufficient income and medical cover. About time too...if that had been the case earlier, who knows, you may have come across fewer unhappy immigrants.


We have worked for ourselves for 25 yrs and the business is sound and yes we would being only to happy to pay tax to the spanish government. We are very self sufficient money wise and can afford a move and do have private medical insurance. So unless you know all the facts dont be so opinionated


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## mrypg9

jellybelly said:


> We have worked for ourselves for 25 yrs and the business is sound and yes we would being only to happy to pay tax to the spanish government. We are very self sufficient money wise and can afford a move and do have private medical insurance. So unless you know all the facts dont be so opionionated .


I can't help it...I've always been like that Sometimes it's appreciated, sometimes it isn't. I dare say you have your opinions too, don't you...

Your last comment is incomprehensible.....having discovered the 'facts' I based my response on them. You have a business, you plan to keep your home and rent....as I said, a sound approach.

So unless you wish to misinterpret, don't jump to judgments.


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## jellybelly

Alcalaina said:


> Please don't pay too much attention to all those reports in the media about unhappy expats caught out by changing exchange rates. They appear with depressing regularity, but they are usually based on banks surveying their customers with questions like "How has the changing exchange rate affected your quality of life"?
> 
> Most sensible people just tighten their belts and wait for the rate to become favourable again (like it is now). After all, the things they are apparently here for - sun, sea and sand - are free.  I firmly believe it is possible to live better on a lower income in Spain than in the UK.
> 
> Some people move to Spain because they have had nice holidays here, But life isn't one long holiday, if you have that attitude you can start to feel bored and aimless after a while. Just like when you retire and stay in the UK - it's important to keep setting yourself challenges and give your life some sort of structure.


Nice to hear positivity - this is all we want but with the ability to bring our business and pay into the spanish economy.


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## xabiaxica

jellybelly said:


> We have worked for ourselves for 25 yrs and the business is sound and yes we would being only to happy to pay tax to the spanish government. We are very self sufficient money wise and can afford a move and do have private medical insurance. So unless you know all the facts dont be so opinionated


check out that medical insurance - it might not be any use to you in Spain & a Spanish policy would almost certainly cost way less

if you pay tax & ins here you will be able to use the state healthcare system in any case - if you want private on top then of course that's your choice


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## jellybelly

mrypg9 said:


> I can't help it...I've always been like that Sometimes it's appreciated, sometimes it isn't. I dare say you have your opinions too, don't you...
> 
> Your last comment is incomprehensible.....having discovered the 'facts' I based my response on them. You have a business, you plan to keep your home and rent....as I said, a sound approach.
> 
> So unless you wish to misinterpret, don't jump to judgments.


Actually it is a shame that the UK has not as yet implemented what Spain has and that is you have to prove income and medical insurance to support your self. The UK at the moment seems to have an open door policy they are trying to close and that to come here you must have a job and be able to support yourself and your family.
When that is introduced maybe the Uk will not be so inundated and the benefit and housing system will cease to be abused !! Tax payers in the Uk say about time.


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## xabiaxica

jellybelly said:


> Actually it is a shame that the UK has not as yet implemented what Spain has and that is you have to prove income and medical insurance to support your self. The UK at the moment seems to have an open door policy they are trying to close and that to come here you must have a job and be able to support yourself and your family.
> When that is introduced maybe the Uk will not be so inundated and the benefit and housing system will cease to be abused !! Tax payers in the Uk say about time.


the UK has the same policies as Spain & has had them for much longer

any EU citizen wanting to register there as resident has to prove income & healthcare provision in the same way

non-EU citizens find it very difficult to get residency in the UK, criteria are _very _strict - just take a look at our Britain forum & you'll see how many are refused visas

I think the only difference is that once resident there _are _a lot more benefits available & healthcare is free to all residents - unlike here in Spain


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## jellybelly

xabiachica said:


> the UK has the same policies as Spain & has had them for much longer
> 
> any EU citizen wanting to register there as resident has to prove income & healthcare provision in the same way
> 
> non-EU citizens find it very difficult to get residency in the UK, criteria are _very _strict - just take a look at our Britain forum & you'll see how many are refused visas
> 
> I think the only difference is that once resident there _are _a lot more benefits available & healthcare is free to all residents - unlike here in Spain


Why then do we have so many polish on benefits and being housed in social housing - living here you see it daily


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## mrypg9

jellybelly said:


> Why then do we have so many polish on benefits and being housed in social housing - living here you see it daily


Because the UK as an EU member state is obliged to provide those benefits which are uniform throughout all EU states. 
Many Poles etc. who appear to live in social housing are actually living in what was formerly social housing but which was bought under the Right to Buy scheme. I've even heard of cases of social housing tenants sub-letting....quite illegally, of course.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But to get back to your original post .
*
'I have found so many ex pats un happy'*

Whilst that opinion has been refuted, I'm wondering why there is such a focus especially in the tabloid media on immigrants to Spain. There are many British immigrants in France, the US, the Czech Republic...No-one seems interested as to whether they are happy or not.

Alca has raised one point, the number of surveys addressed to British immigrants on topics such as 'How has the exchange rate affected you in Spain?', 'Has the crisis in the euro-zone influenced your decision to buy property in Spain?' and so on.
Anyone would think we Brits in Spain were some kind of exotic group, different from other emigres. Maybe we are....but the Brits I know in Spain have mainly lived in many other parts of the world before settling here. 

After two relatively happy years in Prague OH and I became very unhappy with our life...so we moved. But on reflection, the reasons behind my unhappiness there didn't have the same effect on other British immigrants who continue to lead happy lives there to this day. So it was me, my perceptions, my feelings, shared by my partner, that led us to move, not some fault endemic to the Czech Republic. 

The Daily Mail in particular seems determined to prove that all Brits in Spain are desperately longing to flee home. Comments under these doom and gloom pieces are often nasty and spiteful in the extreme.

As the Mail does seem to attract a lot of unhappy dissatisfied readers, the vast majority of them living in the UK, I can only assume that for some it's the old resentment and envy of people who may, just may, be enjoying something they lack or resent others enjoying....immigrants to Spain, asylum seekers, single mums, people on benefits, wealthy 'upper-class' people, foreigners and so on...

Just a thought...


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## Alcalaina

jellybelly said:


> Why then do we have so many polish on benefits and being housed in social housing - living here you see it daily


They have worked and paid into the system, therefore are entitled to the same benefits as anyone else.

You must surely be aware that the net contribution to the economy from immigrants is many times more than the cost?

Wanted: more immigrants to boost British economy - Home News - UK - The Independent


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## 90199

I have been having a think about this thread and miserable Ex Pats having a moan.

Tell you what, come here and see if you can find some Ex Pats never mind moaning Ex Pats.

Last night we went to two watering holes, didn't hear a word of English all night. A lady who we had not met before asked if we were German, which caused great hilarity among the locals, shall no doubt not hear the last of that.

Years ago I worked on a liner, ( R.M.S. Canberra) We were in the business of transporting emigrants to Australia and New Zealand. Some of the prospective emigrants started moaning before we had left Southampton and got progressively worse as the voyage unfolded. It was easy to tell the ones that would succeed.

Some people would be better if they never left their native surroundings, never mind going to a foreign land with a different language. Those are the people that will never settle.

And us? we stay here, why?, because here is our home:


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## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> They have worked and paid into the system, therefore are entitled to the same benefits as anyone else.
> 
> You must surely be aware that the net contribution to the economy from immigrants is many times more than the cost?
> 
> Wanted: more immigrants to boost British economy - Home News - UK - The Independent


Yes, it is a common misperception that EU immigrants -and others - just turn up and are given housing etc. An otherwise sensible friend back in the UK solemnly told me that immigrants were given 'interest-free loans of £1000 on arrival in the UK'.....

But that net contribution you refer to needs to be qualified just a little.

While it is true that as a country with an ageing population we desperately need a workforce to pay for the care of the huge proportion of elderly we shall see within a few years, we should bear in mind that immigration comes with strings attached, such as:

downward pressure on wages in many areas;
the fact that we welcome immigrants whilst there are almost two million British citizens seeking employment;
immigration has been concentrated in certain areas and has resulted in great strain on infrastructure, especially education, health and police;
the ambiance of many British towns and villages has been altered without the consultation or consent of the inhabitants;
increasing immigrant population will require the 'concreting over' of many more green-field area to accommodate the pressure of many more people - immigrants' birth rates tend to be higher than those of the indigenous population as they are younger;
the need for a larger workforce often goes cap-in-hand with demands from employers for even more relaxation of existing labour laws.


So we can't just open our doors to all with a huge 'Wlcome' sign on the white cliffs.


----------



## Stravinsky

jellybelly said:


> I find it quite funny how quick some senior !! ex pats jump on a question or remark and seem to wont to belittle or attack. Most people who have made it work in Spain are very pleasant with useful information.
> No we are looking to escape but seek the sunshine and are still willing to work hard for ourselves and contribute to the spanish tax etc. In our early fifty's grown up kids's - now is our time for a change.


Errr ... I wasnt trying to belittle and attack you. I'm confused by your comment though

You asked why people were unhappy here and I told you why it is ..... in my opinion taken over 6 years of forum life

So I dont know why you make such a comment, and if for some reason you dont like the answer given I am sorry .... but it wasnt even aimed at you, it was a general comment!


----------



## XTreme

If you're thinking of coming here.....remember these things!

Get the latest space age aircon.....










Make sure you view plenty of properties! This is Nico who's very proud of his cave house reformation.....very soon it'll be good enough to put his chickens in!










Avoid Brit Expats at all costs!


----------



## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> immigration has been concentrated in certain areas and has resulted in great strain on infrastructure, especially education, health and police;
> 
> the ambiance of many British towns and villages has been altered without the consultation or consent of the inhabitants;
> 
> increasing immigrant population will require the 'concreting over' of many more green-field area to accommodate the pressure of many more people ...


... All of which could apply equally to parts of Spain, where millions of "expats" have chosen to come and look for a better life!

We've all taken advantage of the freedom of movement within the EU, so aren't really in a position to condemn others who do the same.


----------



## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> ... All of which could apply equally to parts of Spain, where millions of "expats" have chosen to come and look for a better life!
> 
> We've all taken advantage of the freedom of movement within the EU, so aren't really in a position to condemn others who do the same.


I was thinking of that as I wrote...but it's not really the same, is it, not for us retired folks. We aren't competing for scarce jobs and the vast majority of us don't qualify for welfare benefits, even though as you rightly say they don't come automatically - you have to pay in before you can take out.

But it's true that nobody asked the Spanish people how they felt about having their country 'invaded' by foreigners not just from all over Northern Europe but from South and Central America. 
It is true that many Spaniards benefited from the construction boom when the good times were rolling but now everyone is suffering from the bust.

We also have to remember that there was no such thing as 'freedom of movement' within the EU and in fact there isn't now. Only the ROI and the UK applied an 'open door' policy to migrants from former socialist states when they gained EU m,embership in 2004. More prudent countries applied and still apply strict quotas in order to safeguard wages and employment of their citizens.

The UK now has imposed quotas on immigrants from Bulgaria and Romania. 
This 'free movement' as experienced in the UK was welcomed chiefly by employers who saw an opportunity to acquire a vast pool of skilled, docile and comparatively cheap labour. It was never debated in Parliament and was not accepted unequivocally by the majority of the UK population. 

Free movement of labour, alomg with free movement of goods and capital, all part of the Single European Act/Maastricht Treaty has not been an unmixed blessing for ordinary people. At the very least, the then Labour Government could have initiated a national debate on the pros and cons of immigration. But it didn't because the subject of EU immigration wasn't debated in Parliament, let alone with the British people as a whole.

As was the case with the Spanish people. 

But nothing new there


----------



## Megsmum

XTreme said:


> If you're thinking of coming here.....remember these things!
> 
> Get the latest space age aircon.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Make sure you view plenty of properties! This is Nico who's very proud of his cave house reformation.....very soon it'll be good enough to put his chickens in!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Avoid Brit Expats at all costs!


:clap2::clap2:

This made me laugh.....I do the fan trick at work when stuck in my coal hole sorry office!!!!

Chicken run - my girls would like that
X


----------



## neddie

dunmovin said:


> Agreed on all....with the exception of dulce de leche in Argentina.....only had the Spanish version and like it



...but aaah, the original one is in Argentina.....and wait until you have tried it  In Argentina they put in anything they can think of...flan, cakes, biscuits (cookies),deserts, ice cream etc...


----------



## dunmovin

jimenato said:


> There are unhappy people all over the world and for many different reasons. Mary is spot on with her first comment.
> 
> 
> 
> The people I mix with here in Spain are no unhappier than those I meet in the UK - in fact quite the opposite. I suspect that many of those who are unhappy expats would be unhappy stay-at-homes as well.
> 
> There are, of course, a few who are unhappy _because_ they are expats - *sadly it appears that DunWorkin is one*. It's bound to happen from time-to-time and often no amount of forward planning can avoid it.
> 
> When we first came to Spain in 2000, had we done any planning (we didn't - we didn't even know we were coming to Spain until we arrived here) there is no way we could have foreseen the current crisis and someone planning now cannot possibly know how this crisis (or the next one) is going to pan out.
> 
> Things change in unexpected ways. It would be amazing if there were no casualties.


I'm hoping that comment wasn't directed at me,because after being away from the UK for 17 years and having no wish to return anytime soon + the fact Dunworkin rarely,if ever posts here. I think you must not have read my post properly.

Yes, some can do it without planning. But they are the exception, not the mainstream. The other lot, who can't deal with it, soon become fodder for the rest of the moaners and are only too willing"relate their tales of woe" to anyone that will listen.

One of the best moments I remember, was when the BA 747, made it's final turn into Hong Kong's Kai Tak approach and I thought to myself "New place,new way of life. There is no way I'm going back." 13 years later the same thought happened.
Yes, we have lost a lot due to b(w)ankers and had to trim our weekly budget, but that is life.
No, I don't object to how Spanish people live their lives
Yes, I do feel that a crowd of brits at the next table, are objectionable( and their chances of survival in China could be measured in seconds) who moan about everything, so I move to the next cafe/bar.

So far, I have not found any reason I would want to move from Spain.


----------



## xabiaxica

dunmovin said:


> I'm hoping that comment wasn't directed at me,because after being away from the UK for 17 years and having no wish to return anytime soon + the fact Dunworkin rarely,if ever posts here. I think you must not have read my post properly.
> 
> .



Dunworkin does post here now & then, & has recently been posting about how unhappy they are here, sadly


http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...ts-over-60-trying-sell-spain-return-uk-2.html


----------



## dunmovin

xabiachica said:


> Dunworkin does post here now & then, & has recently been posting about how unhappy they are here, sadly
> 
> 
> http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...ts-over-60-trying-sell-spain-return-uk-2.html


Having read that post and feel sorry for them, because of their situation, is it not a logical thought to have funds set aside for just this type of thing? Funds that should never be dipped into unless the situation is dire.


----------



## jimenato

dunmovin said:


> Having read that post and feel sorry for them, because of their situation, is it not a logical thought to have funds set aside for just this type of thing? Funds that should never be dipped into unless the situation is dire.


Yes - absolutely right. We have such a sum set aside - in premium bonds as it happens. We put it there when we first came away 12 years ago the rule being that if we ever needed it it was time to go back to the UK. 

We have had a few good times on the winnings though...


----------



## Monkey Hangers

*Unhappy*

Is it not just the case that as a nation, we are naturally moaners?


----------



## mrypg9

Monkey Hangers said:


> Is it not just the case that as a nation, we are naturally moaners?


Yes, absolutely.

Whingeing and moaning are English, if not British, characteristics.

But that could be a good thing as whingeing and moaning seems to be a satisfactory enough activity in its own right and has prevented us from exeriencing violent revolution of either far left or far right varieties, unlike many other nations, who aren't satisfied with a mere whinge and take to violent activity.

The freedom to whinge and moan should probably be safeguarded by the European Court of Human Rights. It's a valuable safety-valve.


----------



## 90199

The posts on here are describing a completely different way of life, sometimes I wonder if we here are on a different planet.


----------



## mrypg9

Hepa said:


> The posts on here are describing a completely different way of life, sometimes I wonder if we here are on a different planet.


Which posts, Hepa


----------



## 90199

mrypg9 said:


> Which posts, Hepa


The ones describing the lifestyle on the costas, moaning loud Brits etc. 

We are very lucky here, we don't have any real beaches, the island is difficult to travel to, so people do not arrive. 

The large scale tourist industry has passed us by, no high rise hotel or apartment blocks, we are 75 miles and 75 years away from the southern resorts of Tenerife, in some respects we are still in the 1950's

If I had to live in Spain, I would want to be well away from the tourist areas.


----------



## jimenato

Hepa said:


> The ones describing the lifestyle on the costas, moaning loud Brits etc.


You've probably spotted that it's not all of us who see our lives in that manner. There are quite a few of us who are very happy with our lot - and what's more, don't see a lot of whingeing expats around us all the time either.


----------



## jimenato

How the hell do you delete a double post?


----------



## 90199

jimenato said:


> You've probably spotted that it's not all of us who see our lives in that manner. There are quite a few of us who are very happy with our lot - and what's more, don't see a lot of whingeing expats around us all the time either.


Indeed I have


----------



## youngagepensioner

jellybelly said:


> We are in our mid fifty's and looking for a better life in Spain - why were you so unhappy and came back to this uk where it is not as it once used to be


We were not unhappy in Spain ....however, it was not a better life in Spain, we didn't expect to be. It was a *different* life , yes, and I'm glad we had the experience, but it was never meant to be permanent and I'm glad that we have now returned to the UK.


----------



## mrypg9

Hepa said:


> The ones describing the lifestyle on the costas, moaning loud Brits etc.
> 
> We are very lucky here, we don't have any real beaches, the island is difficult to travel to, so people do not arrive.
> 
> The large scale tourist industry has passed us by, no high rise hotel or apartment blocks, we are 75 miles and 75 years away from the southern resorts of Tenerife, in some respects we are still in the 1950's
> 
> If I had to live in Spain, I would want to be well away from the tourist areas.



The coast anywhere will be a tourist area....but then many places are tourist areas. Cities like Madrid and Barcelona, the pueblos blancos, little villages on wine routes and such like....all attract tourists.

There are no high rise blocks or hotels where I live although there are plenty within a thirty minute drive. Our beach is deserted - there is no road leading directly to it....you have to WALK

I went to the village street this morning...it always looks as if aliens had abducted everyone, even in high summer...

A few loud Spaniards, not moaning though, in the couple of cafes..

Hopefully our village will stay like this although I read that some Arab Prince has permission to build an urb. on the outskirts near the supermarket....But then apparently he's had permission before and it lapsed so it may never happen..


----------



## FletchinFrance

Hepa said:


> I have been having a think about this thread and miserable Ex Pats having a moan.
> 
> Tell you what, come here and see if you can find some Ex Pats never mind moaning Ex Pats.
> 
> Last night we went to two watering holes, didn't hear a word of English all night. A lady who we had not met before asked if we were German, which caused great hilarity among the locals, shall no doubt not hear the last of that.
> 
> Years ago I worked on a liner, ( R.M.S. Canberra) We were in the business of transporting emigrants to Australia and New Zealand. Some of the prospective emigrants started moaning before we had left Southampton and got progressively worse as the voyage unfolded. It was easy to tell the ones that would succeed.
> 
> Some people would be better if they never left their native surroundings, never mind going to a foreign land with a different language. Those are the people that will never settle.
> 
> And us? we stay here, why?, because here is our home:


Fletch in France,

Well said and a good observation. I would go further and say that there are certain types of U.K. residents who should never be issued with a passport. If they want to visit islands round the world, then let them go Canvey Island, the isle of dogs, or Rockall. They would'nt know where they were as any form of travel in the form of boat or plane travel must mean that they "have gone abroad". (and I do not read the Daily Mail).

Regards Fletch in France.


----------



## onlytone

*Not Happy*

I do not understand why expats cannot be happy in Spain - did they think that coming here would mean that everything is free, and just to tell their friends that "we live in Spain"
Wherever you go you cannot live without money - taking on a mortgage without an income is dreamland.
The number of expats that go back to the uk seems very high. I believe that if you cannot afford to live in Spain you most certainly cannot afford to live in the uk
Sit and think before you make the move - what do you want?

I moved here about four years ago, my house value has dropped by 50% its no worry to me because everything is relevant, I did not bring debts to this country and thought it out carefully before i came.

I would not be able to have a lifestyle back in England that i have here in Spain and i am glad i made the move


----------



## xabiaxica

onlytone said:


> I do not understand why expats cannot be happy in Spain - did they think that coming here would mean that everything is free, and just to tell their friends that "we live in Spain"
> Wherever you go you cannot live without money - taking on a mortgage without an income is dreamland.
> The number of expats that go back to the uk seems very high. I believe that if you cannot afford to live in Spain you most certainly cannot afford to live in the uk
> Sit and think before you make the move - what do you want?
> 
> I moved here about four years ago, my house value has dropped by 50% its no worry to me because everything is relevant, I did not bring debts to this country and thought it out carefully before i came.
> 
> I would not be able to have a lifestyle back in England that i have here in Spain and i am glad i made the move


:welcome:

not everyone goes back to the UK (or wherever) for financial reasons though

IF we went back it would be because my children could/would have a better future there - I suspect at least my older dd will have a future somewhere other than Spain - either for uni or after

it may be that I & my other dd will go with her - it may be we'll stay - if we stay & my younger dd later follows her - I might miss them too much & go myself

who knows what the future will bring?

I have no mortgage or property to sell here - we stay because it's home & we love it, & yes, financially we are better off here - but things DO change

never say never


----------



## mrypg9

onlytone said:


> I do not understand why expats cannot be happy in Spain - did they think that coming here would mean that everything is free, and just to tell their friends that "we live in Spain"
> Wherever you go you cannot live without money - taking on a mortgage without an income is dreamland.
> The number of expats that go back to the uk seems very high. I believe that if you cannot afford to live in Spain you most certainly cannot afford to live in the uk
> Sit and think before you make the move - what do you want?
> 
> I moved here about four years ago, my house value has dropped by 50% its no worry to me because everything is relevant, I did not bring debts to this country and thought it out carefully before i came.
> 
> I would not be able to have a lifestyle back in England that i have here in Spain and i am glad i made the move



More or less how we feel. We chose not to buy here, instead sold up in the UK and elsewhere and although the overall value of our bank deposits/other income has fallen....*but* so has our rent which is now a massive 1100 euros a month less than the amount the landlord asked when we came here four years ago.

I found the notes I had made in my little black notebook when we were in Prague planning our move here in summer 2008. Thanks to questions I put on this site and the helpful answers I received I was able to calculate the overall cost of living here. At that time the exchange rate was £1=1.22 euros.....better now, slightly. In decided to work on the basis of £1 =1 euro thinking that could never happen....We arrived on the second of December to find that yes, £1 did get you 1 euro!! 

So worst-case scenario had materialised...But no harm done.

I sometimes get castigated for saying this -and yes, I know 'the best laid plans of mice and men gang oft awray'.... but too many immigrants came on a wing and a prayer.
Moving to another country, especially for families with young children and for people who aren't experienced in 'abroad' - Stewart's 'Canvey Island' types - is not just a question of packing a case and logging on to a budget airline site.

You don't know a country until you live in it and experience the every-day stuff. Over forty decades of regularly visiting Czechoslovakia/Czech Republic didn't prepare me for actually living there. It's a whole new ball game....

One interesting aspect for me is that since I left the UK I see a lot more of my son and dil than when I was in the UK. Both parties seemed to be either too busy or too tired to make the longish drive to meet up. But as my family come regularly to spend weekends at their house a very short drive -ten minutes or less - from where we live and because I fly to the UK fairly regularly we see much more of each other.


----------



## anles

mrypg9 said:


> You don't know a country until you live in it and experience the every-day stuff. Over forty decades of regularly visiting Czechoslovakia/Czech Republic didn't prepare me for actually living there. It's a whole new ball game....


I think this may be a *slight*exageration!!


----------



## xabiaxica

mrypg9 said:


> More or less how we feel. We chose not to buy here, instead sold up in the UK and elsewhere and although the overall value of our bank deposits/other income has fallen....*but* so has our rent which is now a massive 1100 euros a month less than the amount the landlord asked when we came here four years ago.
> 
> I found the notes I had made in my little black notebook when we were in Prague planning our move here in summer 2008. Thanks to questions I put on this site and the helpful answers I received I was able to calculate the overall cost of living here. At that time the exchange rate was £1=1.22 euros.....better now, slightly. In decided to work on the basis of £1 =1 euro thinking that could never happen....We arrived on the second of December to find that yes, £1 did get you 1 euro!!
> 
> So worst-case scenario had materialised...But no harm done.
> 
> I sometimes get castigated for saying this -and yes, I know 'the best laid plans of mice and men gang oft awray'.... but too many immigrants came on a wing and a prayer.
> Moving to another country, especially for families with young children and for people who aren't experienced in 'abroad' - Stewart's 'Canvey Island' types - is not just a question of packing a case and logging on to a budget airline site.
> 
> You don't know a country until you live in it and experience the every-day stuff. *Over forty decades *of regularly visiting Czechoslovakia/Czech Republic didn't prepare me for actually living there. It's a whole new ball game....
> 
> One interesting aspect for me is that since I left the UK I see a lot more of my son and dil than when I was in the UK. Both parties seemed to be either too busy or too tired to make the longish drive to meet up. But as my family come regularly to spend weekends at their house a very short drive -ten minutes or less - from where we live and because I fly to the UK fairly regularly we see much more of each other.



wow!!

I didn't realise you were *that *old












:bolt:


----------



## jimenato




----------



## mrypg9

anles said:


> I think this may be a *slight*exageration!!


Note to self....do not post without putting on reading specs....

But four *decades *is a long time to be frequently in a country...!

My Czech friend Pavla and I were quite upset when we realised we had been friends for over forty years

I first visited Prague as a student in 1968!


----------



## mrypg9

xabiachica said:


> wow!!
> 
> I didn't realise you were *that *old
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :bolt:


There are times when I feel it...

I try to ignore some aspects of getting older but some you just can't...


----------



## Stravinsky

Has the OP done a runner?


----------



## mrypg9

jimenato said:


>


We are thinking of spending a couple of nights at Val's B&B next month with OLA. Maybe we could meet up with you and Mrs. J for dinner?


Note: I've given you ample warning of when and where....gives you time to arrange to leave town then..


----------



## FletchinFrance

Fletch in France, buenos Dias.

The last two replies to ' not happy'. etc. have been spot on regarding the attitudes to some of the English abroad, please note, not ALL.
Being new to this form of communication, I do think that responding to forums in this manner. ie. typing onto a screen , comes over as slightly 'moany'. I feel certain that if all the current subscibers to this thread sat around a big table in the sun at lunchtime, with a glass of vino tinto each, then the conversation so far, would not be downbeat, but a friendly discussion of our collective experiences thus far. Most of them very enjoyable.

My thoughts on the matter, and, in an effort to pass on my experiences to those who are in the throes of making a truly life changing decision by moving abroad, i hope will be of assistance.

In 1985 I retired for the first time from a job that I had been enjoying for some 23years, due to a serious accident at work in 1972. Due compensation was paid, a fortune then, but a pittance now. With it came a inflation proof pension. About the same time, a mutual friend had a house for sale to the west of Almeria, the price then, to me £10'000. I bought from my injury payment as a holiday home for family and friends. We had sixteen very happy years there and still visit to this day.

These are my observations of people moving to the same area from the U.K., hoping to start a new life in Spain, it appears to me nothing has changed in the British attitude when decamping Englands shores.

After we completed the initial purchase etc. and settled in I would sit in my chair in the garden with a big, cheap G&T( Larios of course) and think "this is perfect,what more could anyone want". Secure in the knowledge that I had a regular money stream from England. I was so content with my lot, sat in the garden, that I started to be concerned that it all my go"pear shaped"' in fact so much so that I started to think of the opening sequence from Monty Pythons Flying Circus, when the big foot used descend from the clouds and squash the guy in the deckchair, accompanied by a large "strawberry" noise. Only those people of a certain age will remember that on a sunday evening. Anyway, I kept thinking, " it wont happen"' and it did not, because I had a regular income.

After a while I would see other Brits arriving, and, with usual chats in bars , they would explain that they had sold their modest homes in the U.K. And were going to "start again " in Spain. The fact that no one iin the family spoke Spanish, they all believed that they could arrive in a virtual third world country and get a job. Remember , in 1985 the exchange rate was about 390 psts. to the pound, a good brandy was about 8pence. Anyway, these people would arrive and live "the high life " in the sun, the hotter it got , the less the urge to find work increased. Normally, after about two years on average, they would slowly disappear from the social scene, the car would be replaced by a Spanish "banger" and household items would be sold. Eventually and sadly they would just quietly return to England, having a not very memorable, life changing experience. All very sad, but self inflicted.

We have now been in France for ten years, a different lifestyle to that in Spain bu still very enjoyable. But what do we see ? Exactly the same scenario twenty five years on, people arriving here in their nice big 4 x4 packed full of pets and furniture with the burning ambition to spend every penny they possess on a hovel that French keep their animals in. Why ?, perhaps to impress their friends and relatives back home. Time goes on, the burning ambition to turn the hovel into a house fit for a WAG increases, bringing great happiness to the local manager of the local DIY store. Then it happens, its time to pay the annual social charges and their is no credit facilities in France. The same thing happens, drop out from social scene, sale of car etc.etc, and eventual return to the U.K.

There is a saying around here, that equally applies, I think , to Spain.

Q. "How do you get a small fortune in France ?
A. " You start with a large one".

Finally, thank goodness they all say, is , if you are contemplating that huge , live changing decision, make sure you have a never ending money stream arriving in your bank from elsewhere. Believe me, you will get no handouts in France or Spain, their systems have not yet been corrupted by political meddling. France and Spain have huge social problems od their own and, they are going to get worse.

Best wishes, Fletch in France.


----------



## jamtart98

Life is what you make it where ever you are. I came here for a different lifestyle and the weather and have,nt been disappointed.
Yes the drop in the euro/pound exchange made a big difference to many ex-pats here but many like myself have just adjusted their cost of living and got on with it.
Yes the UK has much to offer but so does Spain. Not many can disagree that the lifestyle here is much more relaxed.


----------



## jimenato

mrypg9 said:


> We are thinking of spending a couple of nights at Val's B&B next month with OLA. Maybe we could meet up with you and Mrs. J for dinner?
> 
> 
> Note: I've given you ample warning of when and where....gives you time to arrange to leave town then..


Avoid Sept 25 to Oct 3rd as we are away - otherwise great to see you both. Should see you this Thursday anyway as we intend to come and do some [email protected] shovelling at ADANA.


----------



## FletchinFrance

jamtart98 said:


> Life is what you make it where ever you are. I came here for a different lifestyle and the weather and have,nt been disappointed.
> Yes the drop in the euro/pound exchange made a big difference to many ex-pats here but many like myself have just adjusted their cost of living and got on with it.
> Yes the UK has much to offer but so does Spain. Not many can disagree that the lifestyle here is much more relaxed.


I agree 100 pr. cnt. If you are contmplating moving out of your plce of birth for "better life"' thn you must liken it to the question when thinking about buying a Rolls Royce. If you have to ask yourself " can I afford it"' then don't do it. 

Regards, Fletch in France.


----------



## mrypg9

jimenato said:


> Avoid Sept 25 to Oct 3rd as we are away - otherwise great to see you both. Should see you this Thursday anyway as we intend to come and do some [email protected] shovelling at ADANA.


We will be very happy to see you therexx

We were thinking of mid-October, couple of nights. Want to see some of this beautiful scenery you mentioned...and to give OLA a change.


----------



## Minerva.909

The problem is that, unless you are very undemanding, there are no ideal places in the world, so you either have to cope/moan/etc. with less than ideal... or... move from one place to another.
I have done it (and hope to still be doing it, despite age and connected "pleasures" creeping up on me) repeatedly all my life. And I can honestly say that in all places, yes, even in the communist Poland of my upbringing, in communist St Petersburg etc. I had good times together with the bad ones. I moved to Sweden from Poland. Bad: I had to leave my young (6 at the time) daughter with my mother in Poland and it took me two years to get a permit for her to leave the "communist paradise" - during which time I could not see her, as I would be heading straight to jail if I set foot in Poland. Other things were good, for many years. But after 8 years of near bliss (both personal and professional) a wanderlust took me and my Swedish spouse to USA. We lived over five years near San Francisco California, enjoying it immensely, but hubby's company relocated to Austin, Texas, so we moved. And were quite happy there, until brain tumor took hubby away young, and I could not stand staying in our house there. So I started working on international assignments, just to be away. A year or so in several European countries, then several Asian ones, all having certain advantages and certain disadvantages, a couple of switches from one US company to another (the best way to extract more money than it would be possible with just promotions within the same company) meaning changes in abodes from Texas to Colorado, to Minnesota, Louisiana, Georgia.
And then the high tech crash and a decision to retire early and take up a so called encore carreer - working with international nonprofits instead of working with multinationals = far less money, far more fun (work far more difficult, with far less administrative and infrastructural support, but a lot more exoticism in "going native" or close to native in developing or "should be developing but weren't" countries. 
Yes, I am in a habit of bitching and moaning everywhere about everything I dislike, which does not mean that I am unhappy or that I disliked living in any one of the places in which I lived/live/will live.

There would be no progress if we did not perceive anything as worth improving. Life is fun, especially when we make it complicated ;-)


----------



## NickZ

I don't think you need to be undemanding. 

You need to know yourself. You also need to be honest about the place you move to. 

If you move to a hot desert type area moaning that it's hot and dry during the summer isn't being demanding it's being clueless. 

It often seems to be the complaints of many expats are the result of strange expectations.


----------



## mrypg9

Minerva.909 said:


> The problem is that, unless you are very undemanding, there are no ideal places in the world, so you either have to cope/moan/etc. with less than ideal... or... move from one place to another.
> I have done it (and hope to still be doing it, despite age and connected "pleasures" creeping up on me) repeatedly all my life. And I can honestly say that in all places, yes, even in the communist Poland of my upbringing, in communist St Petersburg etc. I had good times together with the bad ones. I moved to Sweden from Poland. Bad: I had to leave my young (6 at the time) daughter with my mother in Poland and it took me two years to get a permit for her to leave the "communist paradise" - during which time I could not see her, as I would be heading straight to jail if I set foot in Poland. Other things were good, for many years. But after 8 years of near bliss (both personal and professional) a wanderlust took me and my Swedish spouse to USA. We lived over five years near San Francisco California, enjoying it immensely, but hubby's company relocated to Austin, Texas, so we moved. And were quite happy there, until brain tumor took hubby away young, and I could not stand staying in our house there. So I started working on international assignments, just to be away. A year or so in several European countries, then several Asian ones, all having certain advantages and certain disadvantages, a couple of switches from one US company to another (the best way to extract more money than it would be possible with just promotions within the same company) meaning changes in abodes from Texas to Colorado, to Minnesota, Louisiana, Georgia.
> And then the high tech crash and a decision to retire early and take up a so called encore carreer - working with international nonprofits instead of working with multinationals = far less money, far more fun (work far more difficult, with far less administrative and infrastructural support, but a lot more exoticism in "going native" or close to native in developing or "should be developing but weren't" countries.
> Yes, I am in a habit of bitching and moaning everywhere about everything I dislike, which does not mean that I am unhappy or that I disliked living in any one of the places in which I lived/live/will live.
> 
> There would be no progress if we did not perceive anything as worth improving. Life is fun, especially when we make it complicated ;-)


Dzien dobry, minerva, jak sie masz?

Where in Poland were you living? I spent a lot of time in Krakow...bardzo piekna miasto....under 'real socialism''....
Ghastly....

You have had a very interesting life...and you are quite right,it's human nature to moan, especially English human nature.

In Prague I moaned about the snow when we had too much of it...now I'm moaning about the heat...we've had weeks of over 40C.
But I'm not unhappy...

Do widzenia..


----------



## Minerva.909

mrypg9 said:


> Dzien dobry, minerva, jak sie masz?
> 
> Where in Poland were you living? I spent a lot of time in Krakow...bardzo piekna miasto....under 'real socialism''....
> Ghastly....
> 
> You have had a very interesting life...and you are quite right,it's human nature to moan, especially English human nature.
> 
> In Prague I moaned about the snow when we had too much of it...now I'm moaning about the heat...we've had weeks of over 40C.
> But I'm not unhappy...
> 
> Do widzenia..


Dzien dobry! Miewam sie dobrze, dziekuje )) Urodzilam sie w Lowiczu, miasteczku pod Warszawa slynnym z biskupow i z folkloru, ale od lat 6 mieszkalam w Poznaniu, w polowie drogi miedzy Warszawa a Berlinem.

Poles moan probably even more than Brits. However, I have learned from Americans to smile when I moan ;-) It should make it easier on interlocutors ))


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## mrypg9

Minerva.909 said:


> Dzien dobry! Miewam sie dobrze, dziekuje )) Urodzilam sie w Lowiczu, miasteczku pod Warszawa slynnym z biskupow i z folkloru, ale od lat 6 mieszkalam w Poznaniu, w polowie drogi miedzy Warszawa a Berlinem.
> 
> Poles moan probably even more than Brits. However, I have learned from Americans to smile when I moan ;-) It should make it easier on interlocutors ))


Masz pravdu!!

I know Poznan only from passing through, Warsaw I've spent time in..Sad, beautiful city. So many ghosts..

I was in Poland in August 1969, on my way back to Prague on the night of the 19th -first anniversary of Soviet invasion....Got thrown off train at Polish/Czech border by armed soldiers.

Had to go back to Krakow and wait several weeks until the border was open again...Socialist internationalism moj tylek....Luckily I had somewhere to stay and money to change on the black market....

Poles have good reason to moan more than Brits...


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## Minerva.909

NickZ said:


> I don't think you need to be undemanding.
> 
> You need to know yourself. You also need to be honest about the place you move to.
> 
> If you move to a hot desert type area moaning that it's hot and dry during the summer isn't being demanding it's being clueless.
> 
> It often seems to be the complaints of many expats are the result of strange expectations.


Lol,Nick, it ain't that simple - unless you are a very uncomplicated human being with few and VERY stable likes and dislikes. I happened to love deep, fluffy snow of Colorado or northern Sweden, but hate too much of it, for too long a time. And hate it when it is towing and ll you have is slush. I happen to love tropics in winter and hate them in summer (too much rain, too many bugs of all kinds), I love rain forest... when it does not rain too hard  I love deep forests, but hate it when they, like in Georgia, steal all the sun... I love mountains, but long for plains, and when living on the plains, close to soft, powdery sand beaches, I long for the mountains. 

None of this means that I donot know myself or am being clueless - I am simply not simple enough to like just one thing - always and over and over again. And I suspect that most people are a little - or a lot - like me: like one thing at one moment and a different thing at another... so please don't be too shallow in being judgemental


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## FletchinFrance

Minerva.909 said:


> Dzien dobry! Miewam sie dobrze, dziekuje )) Urodzilam sie w Lowiczu, miasteczku pod Warszawa slynnym z biskupow i z folkloru, ale od lat 6 mieszkalam w Poznaniu, w polowie drogi miedzy Warszawa a Berlinem.
> 
> Poles moan probably even more than Brits. However, I have learned from Americans to smile when I moan ;-) It should make it easier on interlocutors ))


Fletch in France.

Been following this thread with some interest. All the people responding appear to be articulate, adult and with great life experiences through travel and experiencing the rigours of life in general. Perhaps it is the nature of the human animal to complain, no matter what the situation they find themselves in. Not just the English, for they are really the only ones that we can truly understand fully. I am sure that I am just as guilty as everyone else, perhaps it is the same as the English talking about the weather whenever "Brits".meet up

I think an example to all of us has been all those people who took part in the paralympics. Imagine what they have been through in their lives, let alone being able to compete in sport at that level. And here we are in houses., in the sun, abroad, with most of our limbs working, moaning about trivialities !!!

I am not at all religious, but both of my grandparents, who are now "long gone"' were full time Salvation Army officers and missionaries in China. I can still remember to this day, a embroidered 'sampler', which was permanently hung on the wall above their marital bed, it had obviously been produced somewhere oriental, that did not matter. The text read, " Ii used to complain about my shoes, until I met a man with no feet".

I did not understand it at all when I was ten, but I do now, I explained this to all of my children when they were complaining about trivia. I am currently doing the same to my grandchildren, who are the same age as I was when I first read that couplet.

Regards, Bonne weekend. Fletch in France


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## Minerva.909

Stewart Fletcher said:


> Fletch in France.
> 
> Been following this thread with some interest. All the people responding appear to be articulate, adult and with great life experiences through travel and experiencing the rigours of life in general. Perhaps it is the nature of the human animal to complain, no matter what the situation they find themselves in. Not just the English, for they are really the only ones that we can truly understand fully. I am sure that I am just as guilty as everyone else, perhaps it is the same as the English talking about the weather whenever "Brits".meet up
> 
> I think an example to all of us has been all those people who took part in the paralympics. Imagine what they have been through in their lives, let alone being able to compete in sport at that level. And here we are in houses., in the sun, abroad, with most of our limbs working, moaning about trivialities !!!
> 
> I am not at all religious, but both of my grandparents, who are now "long gone"' were full time Salvation Army officers and missionaries in China. I can still remember to this day, a embroidered 'sampler', which was permanently hung on the wall above their marital bed, it had obviously been produced somewhere oriental, that did not matter. The text read, " Ii used to complain about my shoes, until I met a man with no feet".
> 
> I did not understand it at all when I was ten, but I do now, I explained this to all of my children when they were complaining about trivia. I am currently doing the same to my grandchildren, who are the same age as I was when I first read that couplet.
> 
> Regards, Bonne weekend. Fletch in France


Long live the Polyannas of the world. They do spread sunshine, be it exaggerated... but will they improve the world?


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## Cateto

After a few very unhappy years here (nothing to do with financial vicissitudes as all our enterprises are going well:clap2 we have just emerged out of the darkness of a protracted low. Spain was an awful place for us but we've gone out on a limb with two very big decisions and find ourselves in a much happier psychological place. I've stopped hoping to meet Spanish who listen, ask questions or show any empathy or self-awareness because, at the age of 40, I've only got maybe another 50 years, so that won't be happening in my lifetime

Instead we've found some-one to rent our house and run our school while we embark on a completely new venture that will necessitate spending lots of time with folk from northern Europe. This will facilitate enjoying the great things Spain has to offer while affording us the luxury of not having to spend any time with the Spanish people; the best of both worlds


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## XTreme

Cateto said:


> This will facilitate enjoying the great things Spain has to offer while affording us the luxury of not having to spend any time with the Spanish people; the best of both worlds


All I can say is that I find things to be the total opposite as far as the Spanish are concerned. Always been very good to us.

It's pretty much down to how the Spanish find you....they either like you or they don't....there's no grey areas.


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## Cateto

XTreme said:


> All I can say is that I find things to be the total opposite as far as the Spanish are concerned. Always been very good to us.
> 
> It's pretty much down to how the Spanish find you....they either like you or they don't....there's no grey areas.


Hi. The problem is that we were very well received with invites to weddings (been to one with 300 guests and considering our village has a population of 2000 I'd say we were pretty much welcomed from day one), communions, Christmas family parties (always the only non-family there) etc but we've stopped going because I no longer care to waste my evenings asking folks about themselves, their families, their jobs, their opinions etc for entire evenings without being listened to. Yep, the superficial stuff of offering a drink and food: box well and truly ticked. Anything beyond that is sorely lacking with the exception of a handful of peeps, at least in my experience.

Anyhow, I've hung in there through a very dark period and emerged with a very different set of expectations about life here.


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## XTreme

You're certainly not going to get stimulating intellectual chat from them that's for sure!


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## Tippy

It's like the old Aesop fable .Basically if you are not happy where you are then you won't be happy where you're going. lol.


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## Clemmie00

XTreme said:


> All I can say is that I find things to be the total opposite as far as the Spanish are concerned. Always been very good to us.
> 
> It's pretty much down to how the Spanish find you....they either like you or they don't....there's no grey areas.


I've always found that (and I'm aware this is a generalisation) the Spanish don't like people who aren't exactly like them. I'm quite reserved when I first meet people - a typical Brit. Polite but reserved. The Spanish seem to take this as _antipatico_ and I find this really unfair - slapping a label on someone within moments of meeting them because they didn't fit into your narrow expectations of what people should be like. In any other country, I'm considered kind and friendly. In Spain, I find I have to almost put on a fake personality just so I'm not immediately dismissed. I don't dislike the Spanish, but this is something I find really frustrating, that people, in general, can't take you as you are.


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## XTreme

Clemmie00 said:


> I've always found that (and I'm aware this is a generalisation) the Spanish don't like people who aren't exactly like them. I'm quite reserved when I first meet people - a typical Brit. Polite but reserved. The Spanish seem to take this as _antipatico_ and I find this really unfair - slapping a label on someone within moments of meeting them because they didn't fit into your narrow expectations of what people should be like. In any other country, I'm considered kind and friendly. In Spain, I find I have to almost put on a fake personality just so I'm not immediately dismissed. I don't dislike the Spanish, but this is something I find really frustrating, that people, in general, can't take you as you are.


I think you may be onto something there......never thought of it like that. 

Because I'm probably the complete opposite of you and definitely not a typical Brit, apart from the love of animals that we have.


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## mrypg9

Having come from a country (CR) where most people are cold, reserved, unfriendly and miserable as sin I immediately found Spanish people *on the whole* to be the opposite.

Within a very short time of settling in here we found people began chatting to us and we have made some very good Spanish friends in the village and beyond.

Last night we were walking Our Little Azor along the Paseo Maritimo in Estepona and as we passed a cafe a young man leapt up and came over to us, hugging and warmly greeting us. At first I didn't recognise him...then I realised it was a man we see walking his dogs by our rio.
We didn't even know his name...but we do now...Jose...

That is typical of our experiences here.

After three years we were unhappy living in Prague.
So we moved.


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## Clemmie00

XTreme said:


> I think you may be onto something there......never thought of it like that.
> 
> Because I'm probably the complete opposite of you and definitely not a typical Brit, apart from the love of animals that we have.


So if you're immediately friendly, outgoing and loud, then you're _simpatico_. I think it really is that simple for a lot of Spanish people. Coming from London, where pretty much anyone can be themselves and be accepted, it's a massive culture shock to realise that people expect you to be exactly like them and can judge you very harshly if you're not. 

To be honest, what Caleto posted struck a chord with me. What got to me last time I lived in Spain was how little interest the people showed in me. They were happy to talk about themselves but I very rarely got asked anything. At parties, people would hear my accent, ask where I was from and that was it. I found almost every interaction shallow and superficial. 

Oh well. I'm not here to bash the Spanish - I chose to live here! I'm here again now and will try my best to make new friends.


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## Jumar

We have just been away for the summer. We arrived back this weekend. My husband got a "man hug" from our male neighbour and his wife hugged me for a long time. They were so happy to see us back. We spend time with them and their children when we are in Spain and help each other out when needed. They are so upset when we leave for the summer that they keep in touch with us by Whatsap, sending videos and photos and text. This also applies to some of our other Spanish friends. If you integrate you get rewards and vice versa. We are different from other expats (or so they tell us) because we belong to Spanish sports clubs and teach the Spanish, rather than them helping us out all the time.


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## Cateto

Clemmie00 said:


> So if you're immediately friendly, outgoing and loud, then you're _simpatico_. I think it really is that simple for a lot of Spanish people. Coming from London, where pretty much anyone can be themselves and be accepted, it's a massive culture shock to realise that people expect you to be exactly like them and can judge you very harshly if you're not.
> 
> To be honest, what Caleto posted struck a chord with me. *What got to me last time I lived in Spain was how little interest the people showed in me. They were happy to talk about themselves but I very rarely got asked anything. At parties, people would hear my accent, ask where I was from and that was it. I found almost every interaction shallow and superficial*.
> 
> Oh well. I'm not here to bash the Spanish - I chose to live here! I'm here again now and will try my best to make new friends.


I have a student whose brother died at the age of 37 last year. She continued running his charity in Latin America, a very noble enterprise. I saw her at a party and asked her about her trip over there, apologising for bugging her on a theme that I was sure she had talked about a million times. Her response was "Come off it. Nobody has even referred to my trip over there never mind ask me about it. Us Spanish aren't generally interested in anything but ourselves". 

Hugs and kisses and "¡Qué guapa¡" to my OH or "¡Qué fuerte este tío¡" while feeling my biceps and other such superficialities are ubiquitous in Spanish society but this is so shallow that only people desperate for any type of pathetic friendship think it means anything. I like to have more meaning to my social relationships and I suspect that this is why I don't like life in Spain and it doesn't mean anything to me when another dog walker leaps up from a table and embraces me like a long lost friend. Especially when I didn't even know his name in the first place I have a tendency to know the names of people who I hug warmly...or I don't hug them warmly because that is false nonsense


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## Lolito

Hi All! I´ve just been reading some old threads and came across this one. Some people here seem to have a problem with ´the´Spanish, to those people, maybe they should start thinking that the problem is ´you´rather than ´them´?. It is pretty clear to me that if you don´t make an effort, people would react in that way, thinking you are odd or that you want to be alone, or not bothered to blend in. 

I am Spanish myself and I have lived in the UK for well over 20 years and at no moment I thought badly of English people, at the end of the day, I was IN their country and I should try and adjust to the way they live and act. At first I found them to be very cold and reserved and wouldn´t tell you anything about their lives, I was the opposite (being Spanish), but soon I learnt to ´behave´in the English way. 

I remember once, when I was called to the Manager´s office and was told off because a girl was complaining that I was touching her while I talked to her, it was (and still am) very touchy-feely when talking to people, gesturing with my hands all the time and the likes. I was pretty dissapointed to find that someone I though was my friend, was thinking of me that way. Thanks God I managed to solve the situation saying I was gay and had no interest in woman, since then, she became a very good friend and 20 years later we are still very good friends. 

I had to, in some ways, change my ways, and trying to adjust to all those small (but at the same time BIG) cultural changes.


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## dunmovin

jaws101 said:


> We have just been away for the summer. We arrived back this weekend. My husband got a "man hug" from our male neighbour and his wife hugged me for a long time. They were so happy to see us back. We spend time with them and their children when we are in Spain and help each other out when needed. They are so upset when we leave for the summer that they keep in touch with us by Whatsap, sending videos and photos and text. This also applies to some of our other Spanish friends. If you integrate you get rewards and vice versa. We are different from other expats (or so they tell us) because we belong to Spanish sports clubs and teach the Spanish, rather than them helping us out all the time.


It doesn't even need to being as complex as being fluent in Spanish. (a broad sense of humour helps when you aren't) just make an effort.

The place we bought here produces more grapes,walnuts, almonds nesperos, than we could ever use ,but not enough to sell, so we give them to others. When they have had enough, I go take the dog for a walk and get a beer or two on the way back,pay for it then and only then will I go get a box of mixed fruit,veg and nuts and give it to the ownerof the cafe. 
For that simple thing, I get well looked after, the odd few free beers and they willl stop and talk to me in the street or in supermarkets


It's not bribery, the stuff would just fall on the ground and rot. Not everyone is in the same position, but being friendly,offering help goes a long way


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## Lolito

Half my post went AWOL.. can´t be bothered to start all over again, lol! 

but hey! there are things that Spanish people do that drives me mad, like ´hi jose! come with me, I am going to show you my house. . this is the kitchen... this is the bathroom.... this is the guest bedroom....´. 

I hate that! When people come over, they actually stand in the middle of the living room looking at me like in saying ´can yo show us your house, please?´. 

But we are all not that bad, maybe I am too English... pah!


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## MrSam

Lolito said:


> I remember once, when I was called to the Manager´s office and was told off because a girl was complaining that I was touching her while I talked to her, it was (and still am) very touchy-feely when talking to people, gesturing with my hands all the time and the likes. I was pretty dissapointed to find that someone I though was my friend, was thinking of me that way. Thanks God I managed to solve the situation saying I was gay and had no interest in woman, since then, she became a very good friend and 20 years later we are still very good friends.


When I first read this it sounded to me like you told a "fib" to extricate yourself from a sticky situation. I was trying to imagine what it would be like to know and be friends with somebody for 20 years and pretend to be gay. Quite a masterpiece of deception and surely worthy of a TV series.

Then I realised you must have been telling the truth. Or have I got it wrong?


----------



## Clemmie00

MrSam said:


> When I first read this it sounded to me like you told a "fib" to extricate yourself from a sticky situation. I was trying to imagine what it would be like to know and be friends with somebody for 20 years and pretend to be gay. Quite a masterpiece of deception and surely worthy of a TV series.
> 
> Then I realised you must have been telling the truth. Or have I got it wrong?


Haha, same here. I assumed he really was gay, because pretending for 20 years is quite an incredible feat!


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## Lolito

I was telling the truth... lol! I am gay and I was gay at the time. I just had to say it, otherwise they would have happily fired me for ´sexual harassment´... lol!


----------



## mrypg9

Cateto said:


> I
> Hugs and kisses and "¡Qué guapa¡" to my OH or "¡Qué fuerte este tío¡" while feeling my biceps and other such superficialities are ubiquitous in Spanish society but this is so shallow that only people desperate for any type of pathetic friendship think it means anything. I like to have more meaning to my social relationships and I suspect that this is why I don't like life in Spain and it doesn't mean anything to me when another dog walker leaps up from a table and embraces me like a long lost friend. Especially when I didn't even know his name in the first place I have a tendency to know the names of people who I hug warmly...or I don't hug them warmly because that is false nonsense


I'm beginning to understand why perhaps you don't 'get on' with Spanish people.

If you look for 'meaning' in all your social relationships you are bound to experience many disappontments.

Of course I don't think that being greeted warmly and being hugged by a fellow dog walker 'means anything'. Neither am I 'desperate for any type of pathetic friendship'. 

The fact you think that a friendly hug is 'false nonsense' is interesting too. I think it's just a friendly hug and I'm pleased and rather flattered that a young man who doesn't know me can be bothered to rise from his chair and move a few metres to greet me. It was politeness (which is often not truly sincere, of course) and in no way a declaration of love...

Most people are able to categorise their interactions and relationships with other people. They understand that there are varying degrees of intimacy and recognise that they run from the everyday mild pleasure of recognising an acquaintance who may in time become a friend...after all, isn't that how friendships usually start? ....to the deep relationships you form over time with partner and close friends.

The point about the Spanish people I know is that like most people they are choosy about the people with whom they form deep and 'meaningful' relationships. They understand the scale of degrees inherent in all human contact.

If you spend your life searching for 'meaning' (and what does that mean?) in your social relationships to the exclusion of all other forms of human interaction you are bound to be disappointed, I fear.
My young dogwalker and I are very unlikely to progress beyond a chat when we meet up by the rio. But I think that will make my dog walking even more enjoyable. I enjoy 'superficial' chat when walking the dog. Conversation about deeper subjects is reserved for more appropriate occasions. In the same way I enjoy chatting with the supermarket cashier or the kind young woman who fills my LR with diesel at the local filling-station. It's just friendly human interaction. Frankly, I have little time in my life at present for more close friendships with anyone, regardless of sex and age.
I have a partner of thirty-two years with whom I have a very 'meaningful' relationship, close friends I've known for over forty years and good Spanish friends and that's quite enough for me, thankyou!


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## mrypg9

Have just returned from walking our dog -sadly without meeting Jose the Hugger - but chatting to a couple of friendly Spanish guys - and I was pondering Cateto's post.

How does he or I know that this superficial encounter with Jose won't lead to a deeper friendship? Don't most 'meaningful' relationships begin on a superficial level and develop from there? Few non-sexual relationships begin with a_ coup de foudre._
Perhaps it's just too much to expect to make deep relationships with people of a different nationality and culture as quickly as you would people whose background you share.
No matter how well we speak Spanish or imagine we are 'integrated', to Spanish people we are still foreigners, guiris. Family comes first, Spanish friends second and in most cases foreign friends a distant third.

You can't just come to live in a country other than that of your nationality and expect to fit in smoothly....that's what I've learned from living and spending long periods of time in different European countries. 
Most Spanish people will accept you, treat you with warmth and courtesy and if you have enough in common will see you as a potential friend rather than acquaintance.
That's been my experience and I would say I have many Spanish acquaintances but at the most three or four 'friends'.
And that's enough to be going on with..


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## Naythan

*Happy?*

I may not be jumpin' up and down happy:clap2: about living in Spain, but I am not miserable either. Its a compromise. Its hard to get projects started here for lack of resources and skilled workers, but I don't have all the stress/control trips/competition foolishness to deal with. Here I am happier with less and I've made peace with that.


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## jamtart98

I,m not outgoing nor reserved but from moving into my apartment six years ago I made a point of always greeting my neighbours and through time talking briefly about the weather or other local topic of the moment.I also make a point of chatting with the supermarket workers and they do appreciate it.I do this because there are so many comments that they are miserable and unhelpful when they know you are foreign that I try to show them that we can be friendly and "simpatico".


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## XTreme

mrypg9 said:


> Spanish friends second and in most cases foreign friends a distant third.


I've been through this with Stravinsky many times over the years.....and it's just not the case Mary. Certainly not in our experience anyway.

People don't give enough credit to the Spanish in the sense that they can identify the scumbags and undesirables within their group.....just the same as we can with Brits.

And it may surprise you to know that the Gitanos can as well....and they will tell you about if if they think you could be disadvantaged.

If you think you're lower on the pecking order because of your nationality, it's because you're either misjudging them....or you're really "outside looking in".....as the majority of foreigners are.


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## mrypg9

XTreme said:


> I've been through this with Stravinsky many times over the years.....and it's just not the case Mary. Certainly not in our experience anyway.
> 
> People don't give enough credit to the Spanish in the sense that they can identify the scumbags and undesirables within their group.....just the same as we can with Brits.
> 
> And it may surprise you to know that the Gitanos can as well....and they will tell you about if if they think you could be disadvantaged.
> 
> If you think you're lower on the pecking order because of your nationality, it's because you're either misjudging them....or you're really "outside looking in".....as the majority of foreigners are.


Oh, I don't doubt that the Spanish can recognise their scumbags. It's just that however 'integrated' people think they are, we're foreign. 

It must have been about two years of acknowledging each other over the garden wall before our neighbours became good friends. Perhaps it took that long to convince them we weren't scumbag guiris
Now we are good friends with all the family.
Tbh, we don't really want to make lots more friends here. What with family visits, visits from UK friends and the friends of all nationalities we've made here I'm happy to engage with people on a 'superficial' level.
We came here for peace and quiet ....


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## XTreme

mrypg9 said:


> It's just that however 'integrated' people think they are, we're foreign.


We're not integrated......we're just us.....we've never tried to be anything different.

But what we _are_ seems to fit in with them.....for whatever reason.

If you've got friends that are black, or Asian, or Oriental......at some point you never even think there's any difference. And it's the same with the Spanish.

But as I've said before, apart from a love of animals, we're the complete opposite of all Brits.....we were when we were back in Britain.

Back there we didn't fit.....here we do.....that's about all I can tell you.


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## Lolito

It is sad if someone actually choose their friends according to their nationalities. I look at the person rather than the country they come from. I have very good friends from many different countries. I am constantly learning new things about their culture, etc. I always want more friends, you can never have enough! 

... unless you are unsociable and rather be on your own... that´s it.


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## livoshka

People have called me guiri behind my back, only uni kids really. But everyone who meets me finds me the adorable foreign girl... I get bad looks, especially when speaking in english, you'd think I speak in tongues by the looks. But otherwise everyone I meet is friendly and they are interested in where I come from at least, and like that I am very amiable. They always say "But she's so nice and friendly and adorable! I just want to hug her" haha


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## eliz.r.morgan

I came to be an Au Pair and I'm hoping I'm just adjusting, but traveling is intense. I'm learning I need to have a thick skin and be very comfortable with myself. I hope I can find a version of home here, which is why I wanted to work for a family.


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