# I should know this, but...! Grrr, paper tax returns.



## EuroTrash

So after a short period out of France, having returned last year I went to do my declaration all gung-ho thinking it would be easy because I had already been told exactly what boxes to use, and I've always got on well with online declarations in the past, and I had the wind taken right out of my sails when I got a message saying that since this is my first declaration I have to submit it on paper. I messaged the tax office and said Is this right because it's not actually my first declaration? and they said Well yes we can see that you are already known to the service, but unfortunately if the system blocks you there is nothing we can do about it, you will have to submit on paper this year

Now I'm finding it a bit hard getting my head round all the separate forms. Of the 5 forms currently listed for download here Formulaire n°2042 I have downloaded 2042-C-PRO which is where my micro entreprise income will go (I think), but none of the other forms that are currently available seem to be the ones I want.

Am I right in thinking that the forms I need to be looking out for are firstly the basic 2042 form that starts off with details about your personal situation, which is also the form where I will declare my salary, and secondly a form whose number I don't know where I will declare foreign income i.e. my UK annuity? Those are the only three income streams I had in 2021.

Then I was planning to download and print off the overseas bank account forms that are part of my last declaration in 2018, and resubmit those pages just as they are, because none of the bank account details have changed - do you think I'll get away with that?

Does that sound about right, have I forgotten anything? Thanks for any advice!


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## dextcorp

Put 0 EUR everywhere and in the comments section put "Next time let me fill out online like in the 21st century "


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## BackinFrance

dextcorp said:


> Put 0 EUR everywhere and in the comments section put "Next time let me fill out online like in the 21st century "








Formulaire n°3916







www.impots.gouv.fr










Modalités de déclaration des comptes d'actifs numériques détenus à l'étranger.







www.impots.gouv.fr


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## conky2

Earnings from abroad go on form 2047..........

and Macron is a numpty and France is deep in the smelly brown stuff.


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## BackinFrance

dextcorp said:


> Put 0 EUR everywhere and in the comments section put "Next time let me fill out online like in the 21st century "


That's a good way to get you in the poo for at least 2 years.


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## BackinFrance

conky2 said:


> Earnings from abroad go on form 2047..........
> 
> and Macron is a numpty and France is deep in the smelly brown stuff.


Could not agree more.


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## ARPC

Yes the general revenue for 2022 is not there, and it is for all the other years listed. I had this problem as well and did a good deal of searching and calling. I think it stems from French people, like my husband, no longer having the option of filing on paper this year, as it’s all online for them, so they aren’t even offering the form. Finally I gave up and made an appt with the tax office. I’ll let you know if I get ahold of a paper form link for this year.


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## EuroTrash

BackinFrance said:


> Formulaire n°3916
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> www.impots.gouv.fr
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> Modalités de déclaration des comptes d'actifs numériques détenus à l'étranger.
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> www.impots.gouv.fr


Thanks for digging those up BiF.
This year's form looks identical to the ones I did for 2018 (x 6) so I don't see why I can't print them off as they are with all the details entered, and resubmit them this year.


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## EuroTrash

ARPC said:


> Yes the general revenue for 2022 is not there, and it is for all the other years listed. I had this problem as well and did a good deal of searching and calling. I think it stems from French people, like my husband, no longer having the option of filing on paper this year, as it’s all online for them, so they aren’t even offering the form. Finally I gave up and made an appt with the tax office. I’ll let you know if I get ahold of a paper form link for this year.


I think they drip them out one at a time so it is probably just a case of waitihg until they get round to it. 
But you would think they'd make that one available first wouldn't you since it's the one that everybody needs.


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## EuroTrash

conky2 said:


> Earnings from abroad go on form 2047..........


Thanks Conks, is that the same for unearned income? I was told box 1AM but I wasn't told what form this box is on because at that point we all assumed I'd be doing this online. 
And do you have to carry the figure over onto 2042, do you know?


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## BackinFrance

You have to carry the figure over IIRC.


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## BackinFrance

conky2 said:


> Earnings from abroad go on form 2047..........
> 
> and Macron is a numpty and France is deep in the smelly brown stuff


Ah, French administration, why make things qmple if you can make them ever more complicated and less intelligible every year, and Macron is a master at that whilst at the same time saying he is simplifying everything.


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## conky2

EuroTrash said:


> Thanks Conks, is that the same for unearned income? I was told box 1AM but I wasn't told what form this box is on because at that point we all assumed I'd be doing this online.
> And do you have to carry the figure over onto 2042, do you know?



The figures have to be carried over to 2042 and box 1AM sounds like a 2042 box.I think it depends on exactly what sort of 'unearned income ' you mean.


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## Befuddled

I was OK with paper forms apart from the years they changed the boxes. Then it was a RDV at the tax office to let them fill it out for us. Then it went online. Tried it once and kept copies hoping it would help as a reference the following year. Nope. The following year things had changed again. So now its back to the tax office, probably every year unless they can settle on one simple format.


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## Bevdeforges

You would be surprised at the "subtle" changes they make from one year to the next in those "basic" forms. This page from the Fisc gives you an idea of the basic forms you need to print off: Comment puis-je me procurer les formulaires pour déclarer mes revenus la première fois et où les déposer? They seem to indicate that when you print off the 2042 form, you'll get all the various annexes. You may want to also print off the "Notice" for the various forms. Those often give you information on what amounts are supposed to come from or carry over to other forms.

And on those forms for declaring your foreign bank accounts, just be advised that last year they separated the basic form into two forms 3916-3916bis. This year it's a single form again, but now it's used for both foreign bank accounts and "capitalization contracts" (used to ask for "assurance vie" contracts) - with a separate section that needs to be filled out for online accounts (like your Wise currency accounts). It's basically the same form, but just read the questions carefully before you answer. (Wise gives you the account number and address information for each currency account.)


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## EuroTrash

conky2 said:


> The figures have to be carried over to 2042 and box 1AM sounds like a 2042 box.I think it depends on exactly what sort of 'unearned income ' you mean.


It's a UK pension annuity - I explained it at the tax office and after some discussion that is the box they told me to use (I'm sure about that because the nice taxman wrote it down for me on my bit of paper and I have it in front of me).



Bevdeforges said:


> You would be surprised at the "subtle" changes they make from one year to the next in those "basic" forms. This page from the Fisc gives you an idea of the basic forms you need to print off: Comment puis-je me procurer les formulaires pour déclarer mes revenus la première fois et où les déposer? They seem to indicate that when you print off the 2042 form, you'll get all the various annexes. You may want to also print off the "Notice" for the various forms. Those often give you information on what amounts are supposed to come from or carry over to other forms.


But 2042 isn't there to print off!



Bevdeforges said:


> And on those forms for declaring your foreign bank accounts, just be advised that last year they separated the basic form into two forms 3916-3916bis. This year it's a single form again, but now it's used for both foreign bank accounts and "capitalization contracts" (used to ask for "assurance vie" contracts) - with a separate section that needs to be filled out for online accounts (like your Wise currency accounts). It's basically the same form, but just read the questions carefully before you answer. (Wise gives you the account number and address information for each currency account.)


Oh rats, so I suppose I can't just photocopy the forms from previous years.
They did used to accept it if you just wrote out a list of accounts on a sheet of paper... no, I'm clutching at straws aren't I.
Six flippin' forms to fill in, and me dyslexic with numbers. I'll never get all those figgers in the right order, it's not possible..


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## conky2

EuroTrash said:


> It's a UK pension annuity - I explained it at the tax office and after some discussion that is the box they told me to use (I'm sure about that because the nice taxman wrote it down for me on my bit of paper and I have it in front of me).



Cool. That's my sole income, and I always consider it earned ! So on 2047 it goes in the main section pension, retraites etc. and there is a note that tells you to carry forward to 1AL or 1AM on 2042. 1AM is the one I use.

Good Luck;


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## EuroTrash

Thanks Conky, that makes it very clear


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## Bevdeforges

> But 2042 isn't there to print off!


Hm, you're right. But if it's not there now, it should be available sometime in the next few days. They do this every year - string out the release of the final forms until nearly the end of April. 

I know I just got into our ClickImpot thing for this year and they have a list of "final forms" they expect within the next few days. It's lovely to see that they have fixed quite a few of the annoyances from last year (i.e. from the initial conversion of the system to an online one) but it seems to be a tradition here that just because the filing season is officially "open" it doesn't mean that all the forms and functions you need are actually ready to download or use. (Probably intentional to keep all the foreigners on their toes - and to coddle the French, who don't seem too inclined to do these things much before the final final due date. <g>)


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## SPGW

EuroTrash said:


> Thanks for digging those up BiF.
> This year's form looks identical to the ones I did for 2018 (x 6) so I don't see why I can't print them off as they are with all the details entered, and resubmit them this year.


Did I dream, or did I see a pop-up window that said if you have already declared foreign accounts (last year) and there are no changes, then 3916 is not obligatory and you can un-tick the box for that form ?
I just had a first glance and will go through in detail, but surprised no-one has mentioned it if it is the case.


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## BackinFrance

SPGW said:


> Did I dream, or did I see a pop-up window that said if you have already declared foreign accounts (last year) and there are no changes, then 3916 is not obligatory and you can un-tick the box for that form ?
> I just had a first glance and will go through in detail, but surprised no-one has mentioned it if it is the case.


I hope you are right. I haven't gone into mine yet because I am still ensuring I have all the details of my income and the various exchange rates, so if you could come back and confirm I would appreciate it. Seems reasonable as IIRC they previously asked about accounts closed during the tax year.


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## EuroTrash

SPGW said:


> Did I dream, or did I see a pop-up window that said if you have already declared foreign accounts (last year) and there are no changes, then 3916 is not obligatory and you can un-tick the box for that form ?
> I just had a first glance and will go through in detail, but surprised no-one has mentioned it if it is the case.


It used to be that the form appeared on your screen pre-populated and all you had to do for each form was to confirm that there were no changes and wave it through.. So it was no hassle really, but not having to do anything at all would be better still.


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## BackinFrance

EuroTrash said:


> It used to be that the form appeared on your screen pre-populated and all you had to do for each form was to confirm that there were no changes and wave it through.. So it was no hassle really, but not having to do anything at all would be better still.


Last year they asked for more details IIRC.


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## rynd2it

SPGW said:


> Did I dream, or did I see a pop-up window that said if you have already declared foreign accounts (last year) and there are no changes, then 3916 is not obligatory and you can un-tick the box for that form ?
> I just had a first glance and will go through in detail, but surprised no-one has mentioned it if it is the case.


3916 is obligatory but it is prefilled so if no changes since last year you just wander through it clicking on "suivant" and that marks it as filled. Be careful with this, one false click and it wipes the previous data, ask me how I know this 

And, if you have to add or delete an account as I did, then you have to step through the form until you get to the new one which will be blank.


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## EuroTrash

Incidentally the site where you download the forms has been under maintenance all weekend. Maybe that means they are busy adding more forms


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## rynd2it

EuroTrash said:


> Incidentally the site where you download the forms has been under maintenance all weekend. Maybe that means they are busy adding more forms


The declaration part is working though - I just finished mine (I hope)


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## suein56

SPGW said:


> Did I dream, or *did I see a pop-up window *that said if you have already declared foreign accounts (last year) and there are no changes, then 3916 is not obligatory and you can un-tick the box for that form ?


That's going to scupper me as I don't have pop-ups authorised .. I will have to remember to allow them when I get round to filling in the form.


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## BackinFrance

suein56 said:


> That's going to scupper me as I don't have pop-ups authorised .. I will have to remember to allow them when I get round to filling in the form.


Me too.


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## Bevdeforges

BackinFrance said:


> Last year they asked for more details IIRC.


Correct - and the quick look I got at the form 3916 before the site went down for maintenance seems to indicate that they now expect you to use the form for both bank accounts and foreign investment accounts (not just "assurance vie") rather than having separate forms (or rather asking simply for a listing). The other change last year was that they asked for specific data (i.e. URL address) for online accounts. The criteria used to be to report all accounts opened, closed or used during the tax year. Strikes me as "odd" that they would suddenly not require re-reporting of all accounts this year - but hey, lots of things they ask for here strike me as "odd" so who knows?


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## BackinFrance

Bevdeforges said:


> Correct - and the quick look I got at the form 3916 before the site went down for maintenance seems to indicate that they now expect you to use the form for both bank accounts and foreign investment accounts (not just "assurance vie") rather than having separate forms (or rather asking simply for a listing). The other change last year was that they asked for specific data (i.e. URL address) for online accounts. The criteria used to be to report all accounts opened, closed or used during the tax year. Strikes me as "odd" that they would suddenly not require re-reporting of all accounts this year - but hey, lots of things they ask for here strike me as "odd" so who knows?


I don't know whether to laugh or cry. I had to get my forms completed at and by the fisc last year because just as I was about to finalise my declaration I realised that they wanted info about when the accounts were opened and leapt up to find the information (which I actually don't have) and, being very ill at the time, had a serious fall taking my laptop with me which I smashed and is now irreplaceable. I need to check what they put in, but I think they said it didn't matter (I opened them many years ago). WTF.


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## rynd2it

BackinFrance said:


> I don't know whether to laugh or cry. I had to get my forms completed at and by the fisc last year because just as I was about to finalise my declaration I realised that they wanted info about when the accounts were opened and leapt up to find the information (which I actually don't have) and, being very ill at the time, had a serious fall taking my laptop with me which I smashed and is now irreplaceable. I need to check what they put in, but I think they said it didn't matter (I opened them many years ago). WTF.


The date opened is pretty much irrelevant if it was before 1/1/2021 - just invent something plausible. That isn't just my opinion, it was professional advice from an expert and trusted source


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## BackinFrance

rynd2it said:


> The date opened is pretty much irrelevant if it was before 1/1/2021 - just invent something plausible. That isn't just my opinion, it was professional advice from an expert and trusted source


I will have a look at what they put in last year and leave it at that. anything. Even my banks have no idea because it was a fair few decades ago, and not the same decade for any of them. I won't be opening or closing any in the future anyway.


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## rynd2it

BackinFrance said:


> I will have a look at what they put in last year and leave it at that. anything. Even my banks have no idea because it was a fair few decades ago, and not the same decade for any of them. I won't be opening or closing any in the future anyway.


Assuming what went in last year is still there - in my case it vanished into the ether


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## EuroTrash

BackinFrance said:


> I need to check what they put in


Do you mean, you need to check what information was submitted last year? If so that's not a problem because you can view and download all the forms you submitted in previous years. I've printed off the foreign account pages from my 2019 submission, hoping to be able to resubmit them as paper forms this year - but if not, at least I have all the info in front of me.


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## BackinFrance

rynd2it said:


> Assuming what went in last year is still there - in my case it vanished into the ether


a
I got the fisc to give me a hard copy because I had no idea if I would be able to declare online this year, ie no idea what my health situation would be.


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## Peasant

I leave it all to my accountant.


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## Bevdeforges

I've normally left the opening date blank unless the computer program I'm using insists on putting in a date - in which case I estimate the year and then use January 1 as the opening date that year. For foreign accounts they aren't really going to check, particularly if the date is earlier than the current tax year. This year I emptied a foreign account but haven't officially "closed" it - but I plan to report it as closed (probably as of the date of the final transfer or something there about).


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## ARPC

Finally! https://www.impots.gouv.fr/sites/default/files/formulaires/2042/2022/2042_3926.pdf


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## myol

Does anyone know what happens if you submit your declaration with missing documents or something not filled or checked correctly?

I signed up to a site to book an appointment with a professional to check my forms before submitting, but the applications for that service in my area are now full. If I end up mailing the forms without someone else checking them there is a good chance I will probably miss something or incorrectly fill something.

On that note, what google search terms should I use to find an alternative service? I think it's a little late for me to find an accountant but I'm open to ideas..


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## EuroTrash

@myol Why not make an appointment at your tax office to submit it in person and let them check it on the spot?

That's what I'm doing. After they replied to say I couldn't submit online, I messaged them back saying, What happens if there are queries, can you contact me by message or by email? because if you send me a letter, I won't get it until October because I'll be working away from home all summer. Then I added, I was wondering whether to make an appointment to ask you to check it, but I don't want to waste your time...And I got a very succinct message back which from memory simply said, Ce serait prudent de prendre rendez-vous.
So I have, for a week Monday.
Why would you waste money asking an accountant to check it, when the tax office will do the same for free - and are probably more genned up.


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## Clic Clac

I've started wading through my return today & don't remember this one from previous years : 




BA, BIC, BNC À IMPOSER AUX PRÉLÈVEMENTS SOCIAUX   Indiquez ci-dessous : 

le montant net des revenus agricoles, revenus industriels et commerciaux ; revenus non commerciaux qui ne sont pas soumis aux cotisations et contributions sociales par les organismes de sécurité sociale (URSSAF, MSA...) ;
le montant des plus-values professionnelles à long terme exonérées d'impôt sur le revenu en cas de départ à la retraite (art. 151 septies A du code général des impôts).
 Ces revenus et plus-values seront soumis aux prélèvements sociaux par la direction générale des finances publiques (DGFIP). 


*Revenus nets 

Pour les régimes micro, reportez le montant après abattement forfaitaire pour charges. 
Micro BIC : 71 % pour les ventes et assimilées ; 50 % pour les prestations de services.
Micro BNC : 34 %. Micro BA : 87 %*


I think I'm a Micro BIC .

If my total CdA was 10,000 €, and I've already paid full cotisations, what is the answer?


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## EuroTrash

Clic Clac said:


> I think I'm a Micro BIC .
> 
> If my total CdA was 10,000 €, and I've already paid full cotisations, what is the answer?


Is the answer not box STA? Into which you enter your "chiffre d'affaires brut" i.e. your gross turnover as declared to URSSAF.
Boxes STA to STL are the boxes for "micro-entrepreneur (auto-entrepreneur) ayant opté pour le versement libératoire de l'impôt sur le revenu".

Which I think is what you are, aren't you?

If you're getting tangled up in working out your own abattements, I suspect you're looking in the wrong section  . (Well I hope so cos I put mine in box STE and ignored the rest!)


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## Clic Clac

EuroTrash said:


> Is the answer not box *STA*? Into which you enter your "chiffre d'affaires brut" i.e. your gross turnover as declared to URSSAF.
> Boxes STA to STL are the boxes for "micro-entrepreneur (auto-entrepreneur) ayant opté pour le versement libératoire de l'impôt sur le revenu".
> 
> Which I think is what you are, aren't you?
> 
> If you're getting tangled up in working out your own abattements, I suspect you're looking in the wrong section  . (Well I hope so cos I put mine in box *STE *and ignored the rest!)


Thanks ET.

Did you mean box STE at the top? (Can't see it anywhere on mine).

Is that _versement libertoire_ where you 'Pay As You Go' each month?

I haven't opted for that.

I've already declared my total in Box 5KO 'Ventes de marchandises et assimilées ' for 'Régime micro BIC'.

Is there a Rule of Thumb that you only declare it once (somewhere), or are you often having to repeat the figure in different places.

Sounds like you've gone for 'the once'. 😚



* I see there are 'Informations' at the end of Stage 3 to signal something that you've not been certain about.

I'll put a line in there for cover.


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## EuroTrash

Clic Clac said:


> Did you mean box STE at the top? (Can't see it anywhere on mine).


When I say "S", I think I mean "5". Been travelling all night and me por ol' eyes are more than a tad blurry.
I'm doing the paper return and it is on the first page of 2042 C PRO. It's the first section on the form, straight after where you enter your personal details.




Clic Clac said:


> Is that _versement libertoire_ where you 'Pay As You Go' each month?
> 
> I haven't opted for that.


Oh right. Sounds as if you need to ignore what I said, then.
I pay mine each quarter, always seemed simplest to me. 
Sorry Clics, I haven't a scooby how it works for people that haven't taken that option.

Right I'm off to bed now, bonne nuit.


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## EuroTrash

I'm finally framing up to declare overseas accounts. But I have a doubt over the second question which asks for your address au 1 janvier de l'année. I initially assumed this means 1.1.21. But then it occurred to me that it could also mean 1.1.22. 
The answers would be different depending which it means, and I'm anxious to get it right first time because I have seven of the blighters to declare, so I thought I would save myself a little time by filling page 1 in once and then photocopy it six times.
I am sure to make a pig's ear of it ultimately, but if I could at least feel confident the first page right that would be a start.


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## conky2

1.1.21 . You are declaring for the tax year 1/1/21 until 31/12/21 so that has to be the relevant date. Tis what I have always put.


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## BackinFrance

They are not interested in 2022 so not interested in 1.2.22. You are declaring up until midnight 2021.

Which goes to show that stressing out and staying up until well into the next day is counterproductive!


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## EuroTrash

Hmmm .
Thanks both for your thoughts.
I take your point about them being interested in 2021 not 2022 BUT if you look at form 2042 it very clearly asks for your adresse au 1 janvier 2022 first of all. Then after that it asks about changes of address during 2021 or 2022. So on that basis I have also put my 1.1.22 address on the 2042 C PRO and 2047 - which don't say anything other than "Adresse" - and it seems a bit confusing to be putting a different address on 3916 than all the rest.

So although I think you are almost certainly right I'm a bit inclined leave it for now and ask when I go to my appointment.

BiF - Not getting my sleep is certainly counterproductive, unfortunately there's not much option but to stay awake until well into the next day when you're making a journey that takes around 20 hours end to end


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## BackinFrance

They of course need your current address for contact purposes, your address at 1.1.22 for taxe foncière and, where applicable taxe d'habitation. But for your non-French accounts. 

Anyway, do what you want, it's your declaration not mine. Nor is it my fault that you had to travel from wherever you are currently living for your appointment with the fisc and return within a timeframe which I suppose was dictated by your affairs in the UK. But sleep is still very important and you still have time to submit your paper declaration.


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## EuroTrash

BackinFrance said:


> They of course need your current address for contact purposes, your address at 1.1.22


Yes of course they do.
So since they have all the info about your addresses and the date you moved on that form, the next thing I wonder is why they ask for addresses at all on the other forms since it doesn't have any obvious relevance to the information you provide on those forms.. It's especially hard to see the relevance of an address outside of France, that was only valid for two months of the year in question, to a declaration that isn't applicable to non-residents. The more I think about it the more unfathomable it all seems and I wish I hadn't started wondering in the first place.

Anyways no panic BiF and I certainly didn't mean to imply that anything is your fault. Apart from not being sure what to write in the boxes it's all under control, the deadline isn't until the 19th and my appointment is next Wednesday the 11th. I have every faith that they'll whizz through it and put everything as they want it and take it off my hands. 
The journey was simply to get from Wales where I had been for personal reasons, back to Normandy where hopefully I will be able to chill out undisturbed for the next few days. Then I have a mammo to look forward on Monday, which is something I never enjoy what with the physical discomfort of the procedure itself and the mental discomfort of having to trot around from one room to another without a stitch on to hide your modesty. But hopefully I'll manage to not get too wound up over that and I'll be ready to start this season's campsite job all chilled and bright-eyed and bushy-tailed on the 15th.
And this one is DEFINITELY, DEFINITELY the last.


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## Bevdeforges

Just been wrestling with the ClickImpot files and I think I have all the numbers in that need to go. But I am letting everything "settle" in the files before going back and checking it all out. 

Something "wicked" in me can't help but "suggest" that maybe, just maybe, the January 1 address they want for the 39-whatever form could also be the address you have on the account. Anyhow, you've got you appointment and you can ask the nice tax person when you're there. And do report back on what you find out. 

Was almost tempted to say that you just seem to "move about too much" - certainly for the Fisc's take on things. But I'm just grumpy after fighting the tax forms most of the afternoon. I will say that the latest version of the ClickImpot is much better than last year's but some of the hoops you have to jump through to get the right numbers in the right spots defy logic somehow. And somehow our ultimate tax due number always seems to come out the same every year. No idea how they do that!


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## EuroTrash

Bevdeforges said:


> Was almost tempted to say that you just seem to "move about too much" - certainly for the Fisc's take on things.


Yeah well. I moved once, intending to stay for the long term, then Covid happened and everything changed, in particular the job that I moved for, disappeared into the ether, and I ended up coming back. I'm sure I can't be the only one that had to change their plans due to Covid.

You sound to have been having real fun this afternoon too Bev, which makes me feel a bit better although I know it shouldn't 

One more teensy question if I may, just to double check- when it talks about "actifs numériques", that just means bitcoin and cryptocurrency stuff doesn't it, and nothing to do with normal online accounts?


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## BackinFrance

EuroTrash said:


> One more teensy question if I may, just to double check- when it talks about "actifs numériques", that just means bitcoin and cryptocurrency stuff doesn't it, and nothing to do with normal online accounts?


Yes, that's right.


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## Bevdeforges

I think you're referring to the caption on part 4 of the form 3916, where they refer to comptes actifs numériques. I believe they expect you to give the URL (website address) of your online bank accounts.

Last year there were two separate forms: 3916 and 3916bis - one for "bank accounts" and the other for comptes numeriques. The only difference in what they wanted was asking for the URL for the comptes numeriques. (And actually comptes d'actif translates as "asset account" which is what a bank account is.) You're going to have to fill out a form for each of the individual foreign accounts that Wise has for you - they give you the IBAN information, account number and the address of the bank that handles the account. Last year I just filled in the URL for Wise along with the physical address of the bank because Click Impot didn't allow you to fill in the 3916bis form (which was just the comptes d'actifs numériques). Haven't checked yet but if Wise is giving you all the detail information, you're most likely going to have to report each currency account separately. (Yup, royal PITA, but hey, that's what taxes are all about.) 

Another question you can ask at your appointment and report back the answer. I tried last year with ClickImpot but all they could tell me was that if I had to file a 3916bis (which wasn't available on their system), I'd have to file on paper. I just improvised on the bank account form and the Fisc seems to have been happy with the result.


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## BackinFrance

If you fill in the comptes numériques actifs you will get taxed at 30%,it's for bitcoin etc.


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## EuroTrash

Yes I've done a separate form for each Wise account, I remembered that from the last time I did this because I contacted Wise and they told me what to do. In fact I even found the thread where I posted their reply verbatim, how about that: post 5 on Wise -- Is It a Bank?

I'm still not convinced these are classed as actifs numériques though. I certainly hope not because I've entered all 5 of the blighters as current accounts, I've already had several goes at it and wasted heaps of paper and printer ink because I started off writing MICRO ENT in the box where it asks Forme juridique de l'entreprise, then having done them all I belatedly I decided I'd better check. Turns out you have to enter a code and I should have been entering 01 for entreprise individuelle.
Enough is enough I'm not doing all that again unless Monsieur Fisc insists!

EDIT sorry BiF, posts crossed


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## EuroTrash

So right out of the blue I just had a phone call from a polite and earnest person at the tax office who is conscienciously preparing himself for my rdv next Wednesday. He wanted to make sure in advance that I wasn't going to spring any difficult questions on him beyond what I'd said in my message. We went through my form and he confirmed I'd put everything in the right boxes. He also tactfully broached the issue of why I hadn't submitted a declaration last year, because he'd found one for 2019 in my dossier but not one for 2020, so he was wondering whether perhaps I might have submitted it late? - he was so obviously trying not to sound as if he was accusing me of manquer-ing à mon devoir that it was quite funny! When I explained he seemed relieved, said that he didn't my full dossier in front of him because the tax service moved from Argentan to Alençon earlier this year and not everything got transferred. (You'd think he could look at my online account but perhaps he can't.) Then he said he hoped I wasn't going to have to to make a special journey to Alençon just for to see him and since I seemed to have done everything right, did I still feel I needed the RDV? So I bent his ear about all the comptes à l'étranger and said that in any case I would feel happier if he would cast an eye over it, and he said he quite understood.

It's nice because whilst I wasn't exactly stressed about the appointment, I'm even less stressed now. And I think I might just print off the exchange of messages we had last year when I said Do I need to declare anything at all this year? and they messaged back and said No.

There you go, I just thought I'd share this because there is sometimes a tendency to regard the tax people as ogres whereas really they are little petals. (Well some of them are, some of the time at least.)


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## bhamham

I have a rdv next week at the tax office in Nantes. I filed in 2017 and then moved back to the US. I exchanged a few emails with the tax office in Paris and they told me I needn't file for 2018, so maybe I should bring copies of those emails. They've blocked me from the system so I need to get that straightened out too. I hope I get some nice person like you have ET.


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## EuroTrash

Just reporting back. I handed in my forms this morning, hopefully all done if not quite dusted, and all I have to do now is wait for the avis.



bhamham said:


> I exchanged a few emails with the tax office in Paris and they told me I needn't file for 2018, so maybe I should bring copies of those emails.


@bhamham I think it would be a good idea to take copies along. I offered him mine of my own accord, he didn't mention it but I thought I would broach it, and he read it and gave me it back, then later on having thought about it he said, Can I have that email again, I think I'll take a photocopy of it to attach to your dossier to head off any queries.

The answer to the question about which address to put on your foreign accounts pages is, the address as of 1.1.22. I told him it hadn't been clear to me and I had puzzled hard over it, and with a jolly laugh he agreed that it wasn't very logical but this year's address is what they want. So I set about writing my address on eight forms, and that's when he nipped off to take a copy of my last year's exchanges about not needing to submit a tax form.

I forgot to check about comptes numériques, but I'm pretty confident that they are bitcoin and not ordinary online bank accounts.

He also said he's just heard that the deadline for paper forms has been extended to 31 May, dunno if it's worth making a separate thread for this since there don'( seem to be many of us doing paper declarations?


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## bhamham

Good going ET.

My meeting got cancelled. I booked a RDV with the SPF-E folks and not the SIP who I should have contacted. The SIP at two nearby locations are fully booked until June. I emailed my last contact at the tax office at Paris 11th but her email address is invalid now. I can't get into the system to mon espace where they advise me to go to the tax office to present my identity. I love these challenges! 
Anyway, I'm just going to file a paper return like I did in 2017 and make a RDV in the summer to sort it all out. It shouldn't be a big deal it's only pension income and some bank interest.


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## EuroTrash

bhamham said:


> Good going ET.
> 
> My meeting got cancelled. I booked a RDV with the SPF-E folks and not the SIP who I should have contacted. The SIP at two nearby locations are fully booked until June. I emailed my last contact at the tax office at Paris 11th but her email address is invalid now. I can't get into the system to mon espace where they advise me to go to the tax office to present my identity. I love these challenges!
> Anyway, I'm just going to file a paper return like I did in 2017 and make a RDV in the summer to sort it all out. It shouldn't be a big deal it's only pension income and some bank interest.


They were also seeing people on a walk-in system at my tax office this morning. There were a fair few waiting but probably about 5 guichets seeing them, and the throughput seems quite rapid. I doubt people would be waiting for more than half an hour or so.
But your plan sounds fine. If they have any queries they'll get in touch, main thing is to get your form in.


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## Bevdeforges

That's one really great thing about the Fisc (especially when you're used to dealing with the IRS or other more "aggressive" tax office) - they often waive any penalties if you have a decent explanation for what happened. And, the late filing penalty is 10% of what you owe - which often is 0€ - particularly on a first declaration where you are most likely not to owe anything anyhow.


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## bonjazz

Question regarding Cerfa 3916 - I've completed my filings for 2021 online and had to start from scratch as the data for this form wasn't carried forward from last year. Question is regarding interpretation of "assurance vie"; literal translation would be life insurance, but I do realize the French product assurance vie is a tax-favored investment. However, should I be reporting a whole life insurance policy with a cash value that we have had in the U.S. for 20+ years, thus has a substantial cash value? Any suggestions greatly appreciated.


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## Bevdeforges

I would err on the side of caution and list your whole life policy. You don't have to give them the cash value - just the existence of the contract. And frankly "whole life" is the most similar thing in the States to this "assurance vie" stuff. There is no penalty for "over reporting" and no cost to doing so, either. 

I used to report my IRA and 401K accounts as "assurance vie" until I found the section in the tax treaty where they were listed as being considered "government pensions" - so I stopped reporting them. If they have questions, they'll call or send you a letter asking for details. Chances are, though, they'll just file it until such time as it becomes relevant (like after you die - in which case it's your beneficiary's concern).


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## bonjazz

Thank you Bev, I agree completely with your logic. Our tax guy didn't think it was necessary to report last week when he did the filing, so he didn't include it. I wish I'd posted the question before the Tax docs were filed. Oh well, lesson learned and you can be sure I will make certain the whole life insurance policy is included in our Cerfa 3916 accounts for year 2022.
Your point is very valid also regarding when the tax stuff becomes important...after you die and beneficiaries have to deal with it and they are clueless. My goal is to get my French tax and Wills and Inheritance stuff in good order to simply estate settlement issues, but that's another topic.


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## nroulleau

Bevdeforges said:


> I used to report my IRA and 401K accounts as "assurance vie" until I found the section in the tax treaty where they were listed as being considered "government pensions" - so I stopped reporting them.


I feel like I ask you this every year but in the first pages of the declaration, where it asks you to identify which annexes apply, one of the options is:

​Déclaration par un résident d'un compte ouvert, détenu, utilisé ou clos à l'étranger (compte bancaire ou compte d'actifs numériques) ou d'un contrat de capitalisation ou placement de même nature souscrit hors de France

If a french resident/citizen has US Trad. IRA accounts, I think it would count as "compte detenu..." under this option and would trigger Annex 3916 - but after that, I'm not sure where/how to add the IRA, as it isn't a assurance vie, per se, but treated as a pension. Capital account? No revenue taken from it (RMD begins this year), so just a holding for now (Which I think gouv.fr wants you to make them aware of, even if you don't have any immediate impositions. Any insights on how to properly report the holding for a retirement account?


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## nroulleau

nroulleau said:


> I feel like I ask you this every year but in the first pages of the declaration, where it asks you to identify which annexes apply, one of the options is:
> 
> ​Déclaration par un résident d'un compte ouvert, détenu, utilisé ou clos à l'étranger (compte bancaire ou compte d'actifs numériques) ou d'un contrat de capitalisation ou placement de même nature souscrit hors de France
> 
> If a french resident/citizen has US Trad. IRA accounts, I think it would count as "compte detenu..." under this option and would trigger Annex 3916 - but after that, I'm not sure where/how to add the IRA, as it isn't a assurance vie, per se, but treated as a pension. Capital account? No revenue taken from it (RMD begins this year), so just a holding for now (Which I think gouv.fr wants you to make them aware of, even if you don't have any immediate impositions. Any insights on how to properly report the holding for a retirement account?


...I withdraw my question as it's identical to that which I asked you precisely 1 year and 3 days ago. The answer was: for a traditional IRA held in the us, no annex 3916 is needed, just report any revenue from that account on 2047 and its good. (feel free to correct me if I'm mis-paraphrasing)


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## Bevdeforges

nroulleau said:


> ...I withdraw my question as it's identical to that which I asked you precisely 1 year and 3 days ago. The answer was: for a traditional IRA held in the us, no annex 3916 is needed, just report any revenue from that account on 2047 and its good. (feel free to correct me if I'm mis-paraphrasing)


Depends what you mean by "revenue from that account" - because it's considered a national retirement pension, you only need report your withdrawals/distributions from an IRA or similar account - as pension income. And yes, you report that on 2047, but also in the appropriate line on the 2042 form (i.e. a foreign pension that entitles you to a tax credit at French rates).


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## nroulleau

Bevdeforges said:


> Depends what you mean by "revenue from that account" - because it's considered a national retirement pension, you only need report your withdrawals/distributions from an IRA or similar account - as pension income. And yes, you report that on 2047, but also in the appropriate line on the 2042 form (i.e. a foreign pension that entitles you to a tax credit at French rates).


by that I meant any distributions (required minimum, regular withdrawals, closure, etc...anytime money moves from the account to your pocket where it becomes "income"). OK, maybe this year it will stick...decidedly not intuitive!


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