# Elections



## xicoalc (Apr 20, 2010)

Hola

I am not really asking for advice but more having a little moan really. Since I moved to Spain I have been invited to take part in the local elections on two occasions and with the forthcoming general election I was looking forward to having my say. I didnt receive any papers from any of the parties like my Spanish in laws have all had so I popped along to the Ajuntamiento and was told that I am foreign and cannot vite in the generals.

I called the consulate and the nice lady there sympathetically explained that Brits who are resident can vote in the locals, and in the EU ones (we can choose to put our vote through the UK or Spain for this) but NOT in the nationals.

Surely as a taxpayer who has paid loads in for the last 4 years I should have a right to say who controls it? Surely as a business owner I have a right to say who makes the rules? And surely as a bank account holder I have the right to give my opinion as to who is going to sail the good ship spain out of this financial crisis (or make matters worse as the case may be).

I am presuming the town hall and consulate are right about this, but if its true does it not make some of you a little bit angry that we are not being given the right to have our say and vote in this "democracy" that we are paying into so heavily?


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Yes it's true, and we can't vote in the regional elections either (Valencia, Andalucia etc). 

One the other hand we can vote in the UK general elections for 15 years after leaving that country (big deal).

Taxation without representation!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

steve_in_spain said:


> Hola
> 
> I am not really asking for advice but more having a little moan really. Since I moved to Spain I have been invited to take part in the local elections on two occasions and with the forthcoming general election I was looking forward to having my say. I didnt receive any papers from any of the parties like my Spanish in laws have all had so I popped along to the Ajuntamiento and was told that I am foreign and cannot vite in the generals.
> 
> ...


Think about it Steven, just think about it.
Spanish guy living totally above board in the UK for 4 years. Does he have the right to vote in general elections?
No, he doesn't.

I've been here for 25 years, working all the time. Do I have the right to vote on the 20th . No, of course I don't. I'm not Spanish. If I got Spanish nationality, and quite a few of my friends have, then I'd be able to vote.
It's not Spain, it's Europe.


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## xicoalc (Apr 20, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> Yes it's true, and we can't vote in the regional elections either (Valencia, Andalucia etc).
> 
> One the other hand we can vote in the UK general elections for 15 years after leaving that country (big deal).
> 
> Taxation without representation!


Shoking actually! I do feel quite strongly about this.. its completely wrong. Aparently...(and this is a pathetic reason) but they worry foreigners wont know enough to make an educated vote... BULLS**T! Those who know not enough are not interested so wouldnt use their vote I dont think. i know enough to know who I want to vote for. And as for voting in the UK ones... i gave up on them years ago!


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## xicoalc (Apr 20, 2010)

Well actually pesky, some EU citizens CAN vote net week according to an article i read online (cant find it now though), there are recipricol agreements with some countries but not with others.

Frankly the whole of europe does need a shake up. In my opinion I no longer live in the UK, I have no income in the UK, nor do I have any longer any other fiscal interests in the UK. So I am very happy to give up my Uk vote in order to vote where I do live, do work, do pay tax and do hold all of my assets and interests. This really should change!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

steve_in_spain said:


> Well actually pesky, some EU citizens CAN vote net week according to an article i read online (cant find it now though), there are recipricol agreements with some countries but not with others.
> 
> Frankly the whole of europe does need a shake up. In my opinion I no longer live in the UK, I have no income in the UK, nor do I have any longer any other fiscal interests in the UK. So I am very happy to give up my Uk vote in order to vote where I do live, do work, do pay tax and do hold all of my assets and interests. This really should change!


May be Steve, but you can bet that Good Ol' Blighty is not one of them, and I think that's where you and me are from.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

According to the portal electoral web page the Norwegians are the only EU citizens who can vote in these elections because there's a reciprocal agreement.
Para votar en unas elecciones es necesario tener la nacionalidad española. Hay dos excepciones a esta norma: 
- En las elecciones al Parlamento Europeo pueden también votar los ciudadanos de la Unión Europea residentes en España que manifiesten su deseo de ejercer el derecho de voto en nuestro país. 
- En las elecciones municipales, pueden votar, en las condiciones citadas, los ciudadanos de la Unión Europa residentes en España, así como los de países que otorguen a los ciudadanos españoles el derecho de sufragio pasivo en sus elecciones municipales. El único país con el que España mantiene un convenio de reciprocidad electoral es Noruega. 



I don't disagree with you Steve, I'm more than ready to vote, but it's not a Spanish problem. It's not so insular or simple as that.


I also think it's ridiculous that you can vote in country where you're not resident and agree that the problem needs to be addressed, now!
​


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## xicoalc (Apr 20, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> According to the portal electoral web page the Norwegians are the only EU citizens who can vote in these elections because there's a reciprocal agreement.
> Para votar en unas elecciones es necesario tener la nacionalidad española. Hay dos excepciones a esta norma:
> - En las elecciones al Parlamento Europeo pueden también votar los ciudadanos de la Unión Europea residentes en España que manifiesten su deseo de ejercer el derecho de voto en nuestro país.
> - En las elecciones municipales, pueden votar, en las condiciones citadas, los ciudadanos de la Unión Europa residentes en España, así como los de países que otorguen a los ciudadanos españoles el derecho de sufragio pasivo en sus elecciones municipales. El único país con el que España mantiene un convenio de reciprocidad electoral es Noruega.
> ...


Ideally to be addressed before the election next week... shame that wont happen!!!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> According to the portal electoral web page the Norwegians are the only EU citizens who can vote in these elections because there's a reciprocal agreement.
> Para votar en unas elecciones es necesario tener la nacionalidad española. Hay dos excepciones a esta norma:
> - En las elecciones al Parlamento Europeo pueden también votar los ciudadanos de la Unión Europea residentes en España que manifiesten su deseo de ejercer el derecho de voto en nuestro país.
> - En las elecciones municipales, pueden votar, en las condiciones citadas, los ciudadanos de la Unión Europa residentes en España, así como los de países que otorguen a los ciudadanos españoles el derecho de sufragio pasivo en sus elecciones municipales. El único país con el que España mantiene un convenio de reciprocidad electoral es Noruega.
> ...


Norway isn't a member of the EU, is it??


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Norway isn't a member of the EU, is it??


Well spotted.

So, in fact no EU members can vote in general elections in Spain. Out of all the European countries only Norway has a reciprocal agreement with Spain (and??) to vote in general elections


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## xicoalc (Apr 20, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well spotted.
> 
> So, in fact no EU members can vote in general elections in Spain. Out of all the European countries only Norway has a reciprocal agreement with Spain (and??) to vote in general elections


Que fuerte!

Hola Mary! Long time!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

steve_in_spain said:


> Que fuerte!
> 
> Hola Mary! Long time!


I was wondering where you were....
Think I'll take a look at yer blog....


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well spotted.
> 
> So, in fact no EU members can vote in general elections in Spain. Out of all the European countries only Norway has a reciprocal agreement with Spain (and??) to vote in general elections


I wonder why...
I've got a Norwegian friend, Torhilde, who could play the part of a Viking in a film or tv series -or a skol ad - she looks so stereotypical...big, blonde, hair in Viking-type braids...
I've never been to Norway but have visited Sweden and Denmark and (apologies to any Swedes or Danes reading this) found them the most boring countries I've ever been to.


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## xicoalc (Apr 20, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I was wondering where you were....
> Think I'll take a look at yer blog....


not touched that for months and months... been far too busy!

Im still here going strong! Just been manic every day always and no time! i think i will retire for my 30th Birthday


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

steve_in_spain said:


> not touched that for months and months... been far too busy!
> 
> Im still here going strong! Just been manic every day always and no time! i think i will retire for my 30th Birthday


I like your blog...eye-catching, very professional. And of course I clicked on 'Naked Man'...
My last dying words to anyone around to listen would be...'I wish I'd retired the year after I started work...'


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## Guest (Nov 16, 2011)

steve_in_spain said:


> Shoking actually! I do feel quite strongly about this.. its completely wrong. Aparently...(and this is a pathetic reason) but they worry foreigners wont know enough to make an educated vote... BULLS**T! Those who know not enough are not interested so wouldnt use their vote I dont think. i know enough to know who I want to vote for. And as for voting in the UK ones... i gave up on them years ago!


I seem to remember some sort of revolution about that


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

halydia said:


> I seem to remember some sort of revolution about that


Really??? In the UK????? When??


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

halydia said:


> I seem to remember some sort of revolution about that


Really??? In the UK????? When??
I guess you must mean in the former American colony....'no taxation without representation'....
WE Brits have made social progress largely as a result of wars, sad to say.


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## Sorani (Sep 5, 2011)

I don't know what I'd even do if I could vote, I basically have the same opinion of it as I do with the two main parties in Britain - I dislike both of them, I don't trust either of them, and I think a good 80% of what they both say is just hot air. Both countries need to fix their voting systems, but that'll never happen while the two largest parties actively fight against change.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Sorani said:


> I don't know what I'd even do if I could vote, I basically have the same opinion of it as I do with the two main parties in Britain - I dislike both of them, I don't trust either of them, and I think a good 80% of what they both say is just hot air. Both countries need to fix their voting systems, but that'll never happen while the two largest parties actively fight against change.


Voting systems will be 'fixed' when people vote to do that.
We have just had a vote in the UK to keep our First Past the Post System.
It's in the interests of smaller Parties to have a proportional vote based system but not necessarily in the interests of stability, good governance or the popular will.
Tails don't wag dogs.


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## Sorani (Sep 5, 2011)

mrypg9 said:


> Voting systems will be 'fixed' when people vote to do that.
> We have just had a vote in the UK to keep our First Past the Post System.
> It's in the interests of smaller Parties to have a proportional vote based system but not necessarily in the interests of stability, good governance or the popular will.
> Tails don't wag dogs.


I think the AV vote was a bit of a con, though. Firstly that it was AV instead of PR, which the Lib Dems originally wanted but the Conservatives would never agree on and secondly that there wasn't much attempt made to educate people on exactly what the AV was - I don't doubt for a second that the Tories intentionally made little effort to educate people or really to allow people to make an unbiased opinion on it, the whole thing was painted as some kind of attack of tradition. Not to mention some of the irritating campaigns against it (Rik Mayall, who I used to love, in particular) and some of the flat-out lies that the tabloid media printed meant that it really came out with very little on its side.

People have the choice, of course, but when we deny them the whole picture then we can't call it a democratic choice.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Sorani said:


> I think the AV vote was a bit of a con, though. Firstly that it was AV instead of PR, which the Lib Dems originally wanted but the Conservatives would never agree on and secondly that there wasn't much attempt made to educate people on exactly what the AV was - I don't doubt for a second that the Tories intentionally made little effort to educate people or really to allow people to make an unbiased opinion on it, the whole thing was painted as some kind of attack of tradition. Not to mention some of the irritating campaigns against it (Rik Mayall, who I used to love, in particular) and some of the flat-out lies that the tabloid media printed meant that it really came out with very little on its side.
> 
> People have the choice, of course, but when we deny them the whole picture then we can't call it a democratic choice.


The whole process was a good instance of one of the big flaws in coalitions. Of course the Tories wouldn't allow the Liberals to have full PR. They had the largest number of seats in Parliament and the larger share of the popular vote. Did you expect them to propagandise for something they didn't believe in?? I personally believe that if PR had been on offer it would have been even more decisively rejected. After all, the Lib Dems are the smallest of the three main Parties. If the electorate had wanted PR they would have given them more support at the election, surely.
I find it interesting that there is this tendency to pin blame elsewhere rather than on the idea itself when something is rejected by the electorate.
False consciousness, the oppressive power of the state, the media, bad weather....all the excuses under the sun get trotted out to explain what is perhaps an unacceptable fact: the divided nature of pluralist British society and the deep conservatism of what some still call the 'working class'. People aren't stupid. It's easy to get information about anything these days. Anyone concerned enough could have found out for themselves what reform entailed. People are not passive: they may vote in a way we find strange or dislike but they make a choice. Suggesting that they were swayed by the propaganda of one side could be construed as saying they were too daft to think for themselves (unlike us, of course, who know better).
Adherents of PR say they want a broad spectrum of views to be represented in Parliament but we have that in the UK in the two main Parties themselves. The Tories encompass all views from rabid right-wingers to social democrats indistinguishable from Liberal Democrats. Labour includes unreconstructed socialists and .....social democrats undistinguishable from........ Liberal Democrats. You have all possible gradations in between as both are broad churches.
How can it be right that a tiny Party - which could be UKIP or ther BNP -we need to be realistic here -should have the power to determine policy?
I used to be a supporter of PR -and a paid-up member of the Electoral Reform Society. But then I was also a card-carrying Communist too.
I started following Marx's most true observation: we must see the world as it is and not as we'd like it to be.
Take that as a starting point and you can make small but measurable progress.
Politics should be about doing things, the right and sensible things and not wishing the impossible.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Whilst I cannot get up a head of steam about AV/PR or whatever, I am amazed that this Tory-led Coalition has decided to sell off Northern Rock for less than the taxpayer has out into its rescue, just when it was beginning to make a profit which Virgin Money will now enjoy.
This smacks of desperation.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Whilst I cannot get up a head of steam about AV/PR or whatever, I am amazed that this Tory-led Coalition has decided to sell off Northern Rock for less than the taxpayer has out into its rescue, just when it was beginning to make a profit which Virgin Money will now enjoy.
> This smacks of desperation.


At a loss of 500 million . 'Enchufe' I think . Smells a bit.
:focus: Personally , although none of the parties are ever going to propose it, I think voting should be compulsory .


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

gus-lopez said:


> At a loss of 500 million . 'Enchufe' I think . Smells a bit.
> :focus: Personally , although none of the parties are ever going to propose it, I think voting should be compulsory .



I agree. But as you say, it's unlikely to happen.
I thought a lot about various voting systems -in 1990 I had discussions with Czech politicians who were members of the Constituent Assembly set up to determine the new Constitution about electoral systems, among other things. (I made a speech about licensing animals when invited as a guest to a session of the CA. I suggested taxes for pets should be determined by measurement)
For a long while I was a supporter of reform simply because as a very active Labour Party member I thought this was the only way we could ever get a sniff of power.
Then we won a landslide...and I changed my mind.
Electoral systems should be a balance of fairness, effectiveness and efficiency imo and none of those available meets all the criteria. I can't see what's wrong with employing 'tradition' as an argument for FPTP. Tradition isn't bad per se.
Adversarial politics has a long tradition in England at least, unlike in most continental countries where consensus and compromise has long been the favoured mode. That hasn't always delivered the most effective governments. Germany, which I believe has a hybrid of AV with constituency members seems to do well in terms of stability and efficiency.
It seems as if the PP will gain enough seats to govern without too much coalition-building.
It always seems odd to me that in times of economic crisis and mass unemployment people historically turn to the right.
Since the real ruler of Spain will be Angela Merkel it all seems a waste of money.
Neither of the main parties , PP or PSOE, has a plan for breaking the hold of the markets or a policy for growth.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Mario Monti, Italy’s new Prime Minister, appointed an all-technocrat Cabinet that does not include a single elected politician.


Elections shmelections...who needs them....



But I have more important and immediate concerns.
The only corkscrew in the house is broken...


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Whilst I cannot get up a head of steam about AV/PR or whatever, I am amazed that this Tory-led Coalition has decided to sell off Northern Rock for less than the taxpayer has out into its rescue, just when it was beginning to make a profit which Virgin Money will now enjoy.
> This smacks of desperation.


Mary surely an asset is only worth what it is worth today - it has nothing to do with what you paid for it. From what I can see the price paid is assessed by most experts and commentators as inflated. But it wasn't just the price. The gov negotiated job retention and additional payments later.

And of course as a profitable bank the gov will get more tax revenue from it. Let's be fair - Mr Branson has a certain Midas touch 

ps Pilar recently applied to Northern Rock for an ISA. They wouldn't accept her spanish passport as ID without it being certified by a lawyer or the Spanish Embassy. Need to say she is now with the AA who have no problem accepting EU passports. Perhaps Mr B could start by sacking a few managers


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

What you say is true, Nigel.
But the question remains: why sell now?
Markets will eventually recover.
Osborne has effectively given away £600 m of our money.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> What you say is true, Nigel.
> But the question remains: why sell now?
> Markets will eventually recover.
> Osborne has effectively given away £600 m of our money.


Because the government can make more return using the dosh than it can waiting for a return from a very small bank that may never materialize. 

And in any case the gov's portfolio is bank heavy with both LloydsTSB and RBS.

Just a thought: RBS is 83% tax payer owned. Thus it is certainly 75% English owned. If Scotland gets independence it makes perfect sense to move our (I'm English ) bank's HQ to London. Has Mr SNP factored that one in I wonder


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## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> According to the portal electoral web page the Norwegians are the only EU citizens who can vote in these elections because there's a reciprocal agreement.
> Para votar en unas elecciones es necesario tener la nacionalidad española. Hay dos excepciones a esta norma:
> - En las elecciones al Parlamento Europeo pueden también votar los ciudadanos de la Unión Europea residentes en España que manifiesten su deseo de ejercer el derecho de voto en nuestro país.
> - En las elecciones municipales, pueden votar, en las condiciones citadas, los ciudadanos de la Unión Europa residentes en España, así como los de países que otorguen a los ciudadanos españoles el derecho de sufragio pasivo en sus elecciones municipales. El único país con el que España mantiene un convenio de reciprocidad electoral es Noruega.
> ...


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

anles said:


> Pesky Wesky said:
> 
> 
> > According to the portal electoral web page the Norwegians are the only EU citizens who can vote in these elections because there's a reciprocal agreement.
> ...


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