# Need some advice



## Cluggee (Jul 31, 2013)

New to the forum, but I have been travelling all over Mexico for 30 years. Almost ready to take the plunge for good, but wanted to make the right decision. We want the beach, don't have a lot to spend, don't need some giant palace and want peace and quiet. We are thinking of San Crisanto or Telchac Puerto. Properties seem cheap, the beaches not too badly eroded and they meet our requirements. 
My questions are: 
1) It seems property values are dropping. Some houses have gone from $180K to $105K in a couple of years. Some properties are sitting in the for sale column for four or five years. Is this because the beach is disappearing? 
2) Since we are not moving for a few years, we are hoping to buy as an investment property. How are the vacancy rates for rental properties on the beach. I was told the summers are booked solid by nationals, Easter too, Christmas, March and much of the winter is steady. Is this accurate. If I can achieve a 60-70% occupancy rate, it would make my accountant happier.
3) My Spanish is still remedial (at best). How much trouble will I be in?
4) Tell me why I shouldn't do this, because I really want to.

Thanks!
I look forward to your replies!


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## Cluggee (Jul 31, 2013)

And I must ask - because I know they are awful in Holbox - how are the mosquitoes? My wife is allergic.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

Although we live in San Cristóbal de Las Casas in the Chiapas Highlands, we frequently visit the Yucatan and one of our favorite beach areas in Mexico is the stretch between Chicxulub and Dzilam de Bravo. Both of the towns you mentioned are in this region and fairly near Mérida. We understand that these beach areas are solidly booked with Meridianos during the summer months as they attempt to escape the stiffling and practically unbearable breezeless summer heat of the city for a Gulf breeze. We only come down from the mountain and go there in the winter so my comment on solid bookings in the summer is only hearsay. When we go there in the winter outside of major holidays and during the week, which is the only time we will travel there, it seems to be fairly deserted to us as opposed to the nearby Caribbean. I don´t have any authoritative knowledge of average occupancy rates over time but I wouldn´t trust *anyone * from that area to be truthful about that. You will only confirm that through experience if you buy and start trying to rent. I also don´t know why property values are declining as significantly as you indicate alomg the beach there but I´m not surprised as property values have been declining in many places in Mexico as a result of recent economic problems in the U.S. and continued drug cartel violence even though that violence has not afflicted the region in which you are interested. There is a tendency on the part of foreigners to paint all of Mexico with a broad brush whether there has been violence in and around Mérida or not. Human nature.

I am not aware of any significant beach erosion in the area in which you are thinking of investing. Why do you suspect serious beach erosion? 

You asked, so here is why you should think very carefully before doing this:
* Since you are looking for an investment property to use as a rental and are not buying a property in order to move there, you may feel a good grasp of Spanish is not necessary but your lack of comprehension of Spanish makes you a more likely candidate for scams - especially if you are planning to continue to live in Toronto and depend on local property management under your employ. Believe me, I have seen this happen to other investors and I am not simply speculating.

* This is a serious hurricane coast and is a poor area of mostly marginal fishing villages with scarce resources for rebuilding of modest homes and infrastructure after devastating storms which are certain to come again eventually as in the past. I have driven through this area years after a major hurricane when the serious damage caused by these terrible storms was still apparent. I grew up on the hurricane coast of Alabama and one beachfront home I lived in in the 1970s was wiped off the face of the earth by Hurricane Frederick in 1979 and that house was 12 miles inland along the shores of Mobile Bay. I would never buy anywhere in Yucatan State or Quintana Roo on the coast if for no other reason than the probability of major hurricanes still to come and land somewhere along those coasts at random but that´s just me based on experience as a youth living in hurricane country. I would only rent but if I did buy the structure I bought would be modest indeed. 

Good luck in whatever you do.

I


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

_


Cluggee said:



And I must ask - because I know they are awful in Holbox - how are the mosquitoes? My wife is allergic.

Click to expand...

_I just answered your initial question and then saw your comment about having a wife who is allergic to mosquitoes. I´m sorry but I thought this was strictly an investment property. If you and your wife are thinking of moving to te Gulf or Caribbean coasts of Mexico and are allergic to mosquitoes, don´t do it. In fact, I wouldn´t suggest moving anywhere on the coast of the Gulf of Mexico in Mexico or the U.S. if I were allergic to mosquitoes. A sudden shift of a offshore breeze to an onshore breeze is all it takes to have them descend on you like the hordes of hell.


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

Cancel out living along the Pacific Coast of Mexico, as well. At time of the year, the mosquitos are as large as small dogs!


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Longford said:


> Cancel out living along the Pacific Coast of Mexico, as well. At time of the year, the mosquitos are as large as small dogs!


Not to mention the no-see-ums (Ceratopogonidae or biting midges).


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Longford said:


> Cancel out living along the Pacific Coast of Mexico, as well. At time of the year, the mosquitos are as large as small dogs!


Oh, my God! What times of the year do these canine-mosquitoes terrify the inhabitants of this area?


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Isla Verde said:


> Oh, my God! What times of the year do these canine-mosquitoes terrify the inhabitants of this area?


I just got back from Alaska and I had forgotten how much bigger the mosquitoes there are, compared to the ones here. However, the Alaska mosquitoes barely cause any itch for me, whereas the Mexican ones do.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

TundraGreen said:


> I just got back from Alaska and I had forgotten how much bigger the mosquitoes there are, compared to the ones here. However, the Alaska mosquitoes barely cause any itch for me, whereas the Mexican ones do.


Interesting. Maybe because you grew up in Alaska, over time you developed a resistance to their bite.


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## surfrider (Oct 4, 2011)

May I make a suggestion - Look at the Puerto Vallarta area Not the down town location but between Nuvero Vallarta and around Punta de Mita even up to San Franscisco. I just purchased a three bedroom three bath home on two lots in a town called Bucerias. This house is well built to American standards even with copper plumbing and is air conditioned. It is fenced in with parking and I paid only 95,000.00 for this 8 year old home. Now it is not on the beach but that was fine for me. The weather is hot and humid for four months but I have not problem with that since we have a/c. we do not have a problem with mosquitoes - I also am allergic to them and have a down right fear of them because of my physical reaction to them. 
The property here is going up and up and up. This area has a strong resale and a strong rental market and I do know that as a fact because I sell real estate here and I have been in the real estate industry for over 18 years. I was retired for about 14 years and the minute I hit this area I knew that this market was going to bust wide open very quickly and I wanted back into the market place. I have never been this excited about the market in real estate for - well 14 years. there was no way I was going to stay retired with what I see here in the real estate market. I am not trying to sell you a piece of property but just letting you know about how and why I chose to move here. It is because of the real estate market I wanted to locate myself here. I sold real estate for the largest international relocation corporation in the world and I do understand a real estate market, so what I am telling you is with knowledge and one heck of a lot of experience.


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## Cluggee (Jul 31, 2013)

Thanks, I will take a look. I am not averse to the Pacific side. I love Manzanillo, for instance, and I was in Ixtapa before it was Ixtapa. And I am not one of these people who is afraid of crime in Mexico, because only an idiot would put themselves in harm's way, but, well, are you not concerned with the crime? It's probably not visible in the small towns, I guess, but one of the reasons we are looking at the Yucatan is the relatively low crime rate.
However, that being said, a bargain is a bargain!


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## Cluggee (Jul 31, 2013)

Thanks for this, guys. When I mentioned my wife was allergic to mosquitoes, I should have mentioned that it is an issue we live with constantly. Living in Canada, the mosquito is our national bird. My wife got a mosquito bite on her forehead on our honeymoon in a Paris hotel on the 6th floor in late September with the windows closed. Let's just say we don't have many photos from that trip! She has been bitten all over the world and takes it all in stride. We went on a horseback ride on the beach in Manzanillo and she got a bite in a stiff sea breeze. They love her. It won't stop her from moving to Mexico. In fact, her reactions to Mexican mozzies are much better than to, say Northern Ontario ones, which can land her in the hospital. As for midges, Tundra, she survived a week on a Scottish moor, so I don't think she's allergic to those!

As for the erosion Hound Dog (and I'm grateful to know you're not one of those hound dogs who's lyin' all the time!), the 7-km long espolon in Progreso is wreaking havoc on the beaches all up and down the coast, especially in places like Chelem and Sisal. Where else on earth could you get a beachfront 3 bedroom home for $120K? It's because it will be under water in five years. The smart money is buying in the Second Row, because in five years, they will be beachfront!

As for the rental scene, we will need about 35-40% occupancy to cover our fiscal bottoms, based on the rates I've seen on the rental sites. It's funny, I put a photo of one of the properties we are planning to see on my FB page and asked if any of my Friends would rent it. I got 19 replies in the first day and I haven't even seen it! And Hound Dog, this is a very modest place we were looking at, so I remain encouraged.


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

"to American standards even with copper plumbing "

Do you like copper plumbing better?


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

GARYJ65 said:


> "to American standards even with copper plumbing "
> 
> Do you like copper plumbing better?


Yes, don't you. 

I installed a solar hot water system and used all copper. It does not corrode like galvanized and it doesn't degrade from the sun and heat like plastic.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

Chuggee:

Having spent a few weeks one summer years ago in Northern Minnesota, I am familiar with the giant mosquitos in the north woods so thick in the air you can hardy breathe without sucking them up your nostrils. I am speaking of the coastal mosquitoes in such beach places as Alabama and rural Quintana Roo which come out of the swamps and mangrove forests when the seabreeze stops or reverses itself and blows from inland out to sea. A couple of years ago, we were driving on the largely deserted dirt coastal road between Xcalak and Majahual in Southern Quintana Roo and stopped alongside a mangrove forest adjacent to the Caribbean for a look at the scenery when we were mercilesssly attacked by what seemed like a zillion mosquitoes - the most vicious bloodsucking creatures I have ever encountered anywhere and I have traveled extensively in mosquito haunts around the world. We raced to our car and realized that, if one broke down and had to walk the rest of the way to Majahual, one would keel over and die from loss of blood before walking 100 meters. Many well-to-do people own mansions along the sea between Xcalak and Majahual, especially around Xcalak, and those homeowners must be plagued by those tiny, almost invisible but ferocious monsters.

As for the difference between the northern Gulf Coast of Yucatan between Progreso and Dzilam de Vravo versus the Bucerias area, while both places have much to offer, they are very different in important aspects. To each his own but my personal preference as a place to live is easily the Yucatan north coast which is, for me at least far more interesting with its isolated and primitive fishing villages and, as one distances oneself fom the long pier at Progeso, attractive white sand beaches and unually calm, aquamarine waters of the gulf versus the tan beaches and comparitively murky Pacific at Bucerias. That is simply a matter of taste. I would agree with Surfrider that Bucerias might be a better area for investment potential and many people love that area but, I would think beachfront homes in a place such as Telchak Puerto would be a relative bargain and I personally would much rather live there than towns outlying Bucerias such as San Pancho. To each his/her own. Just keep in mind that I have two homes, both at higher altitudes and Surfrider is a beach resident and long-time real estate investor who obviously loves the beach. I had quite enough of the beach growing up on the Alabama coast around Dauphin Island and, since that time have always lived either in cool San Francisco, cool Lake Chapala or downright chilly San Cristóbal so Surfrider may be more attuned to beach living as I only visit the beach from my mountain redoubts. By the way, we picked the Chiapas Highlands, among other reasons, because we can pick and choose our beach excursions among the Pacific beaches at Oaxaca or Chiapas, the Gulf beaches we have been discussing or the Caribbean beaches of Quintana Roo. In fact, our next beach visit is scheduled this winter for Isla Holbox, Quintana Roo which we will drive to from Chiapas via Mérida, the Gulf beach road to Dzilam de Bravo and on to Isla Holbox. Every year our beach destination is different and on our way from Progreso to Dzilam de Bravo, we plan to look into beach rentals along the way for future reference. You might say we have itchy feet and go crazy if we settle down to one place too long.

Whatever you do, the Yucatan Gulf or area around Bucerias are both good choices but I would throw in the Bays at Huatulco and Tulum and the primitive Chiapas coast for living - not investing. I have reached a stage in life where I invest in FDIC guaranteed bank CDs. Maybe if you buy a rental property in Telchak Puerto, I´ll rent from you now and then but not during hurricane season even with a discount. Many times, my sister-in-law from Paris has vacationed in the Caribbean during hurricane season because she gets such a deal at that time of year and one day, if she keeps it up, she´ll get stuck in a hurricane, a phenomenon she does no really understand nor properly fear. Not for me - been there, done that, thank you.


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## surfrider (Oct 4, 2011)

Cluggee said:


> Thanks, I will take a look. I am not averse to the Pacific side. I love Manzanillo, for instance, and I was in Ixtapa before it was Ixtapa. And I am not one of these people who is afraid of crime in Mexico, because only an idiot would put themselves in harm's way, but, well, are you not concerned with the crime? It's probably not visible in the small towns, I guess, but one of the reasons we are looking at the Yucatan is the relatively low crime rate.
> However, that being said, a bargain is a bargain!


Crime is not an issue here to any degree. Puerto Vallarta's economy revolves around tourism and Mexican officials are smart enough to know that. .. and so are the people who live and work here - they do not want crime either and call in the cops quickly if something looks out of place.

One place that I highly recommend is San Pancho, a lovely beach community about an hour north of Puerto Vallarta that is about as safe as Mayberry.

Manzanillo has a cheaper rental rate that P.V. but P.V. area has a cheaper purchase price on homes to own. Manzanillo is beautiful and we did look hard at that area before we came here. The area did not however offer all that we needed. Manzanillo is one of the largest shipping ports in Mexico and you do get a lot of "off the ship workers" in town because of that.

Also the gross return for a rental to the owner is lower there because of cost. Things were more expensive (I am talking about maintenance etc) with rentals than what I have experienced in P.V. area but mainly because the rent is lower there and the cost to purchase is higher.


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

TundraGreen said:


> Yes, don't you.
> 
> I installed a solar hot water system and used all copper. It does not corrode like galvanized and it doesn't degrade from the sun and heat like plastic.


Yes, I do like copper, but now I like other materials, in Mexico, I like pipe made by rotoplas; tuboplus.
Advantages vs copper:
It does not corrode, food grade, lasts longer, does not weld (you do not have seams) it turns into one piece when you thermo fusion parts, much cheaper, do not get stolen


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## chicois8 (Aug 8, 2009)

Dog wrote"I am not aware of any significant beach erosion in the area in which you are thinking of investing. Why do you suspect serious beach erosion? "

I believe when they extended the pier the supports were a different design as the first section and that design is stopping the sand from reaching the beach on the Sisal side,so it is not erosion but lack of new building materials for the beach to grow or at least maintain the sand levels...

Cluggee wrote his wife was allergic to mosquitos, remember the mosquitos carry Dengue Fever down here........


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## surfrider (Oct 4, 2011)

Hound Dog said:


> Chuggee:
> 
> Having spent a few weeks one summer years ago in Northern Minnesota, I am familiar with the giant mosquitos in the north woods so thick in the air you can hardy breathe without sucking them up your nostrils. I am speaking of the coastal mosquitoes in such beach places as Alabama and rural Quintana Roo which come out of the swamps and mangrove forests when the seabreeze stops or reverses itself and blows from inland out to sea. A couple of years ago, we were driving on the largely deserted dirt coastal road between Xcalak and Majahual in Southern Quintana Roo and stopped alongside a mangrove forest adjacent to the Caribbean for a look at the scenery when we were mercilesssly attacked by what seemed like a zillion mosquitoes - the most vicious bloodsucking creatures I have ever encountered anywhere and I have traveled extensively in mosquito haunts around the world. We raced to our car and realized that, if one broke down and had to walk the rest of the way to Majahual, one would keel over and die from loss of blood before walking 100 meters. Many well-to-do people own mansions along the sea between Xcalak and Majahual, especially around Xcalak, and those homeowners must be plagued by those tiny, almost invisible but ferocious monsters.
> 
> ...


HoundDog is right - I am a total beach bum hence the name surfrider. If I do not stick my feet in the ocean and on sand at least once a week, I dry up and feel old as a prune. San Pancho is right on HoundDog with the beach and the town. I just work in P.V. so my location was better for me. Your also right about the location of the lakeside area about the access to many different locations. That was one of the things I also like about the area. Also right on about the beaches
down in Chiapas - they are beautiful. shoot any beach is beautiful as far as I am concerned...you nailed me right on about the beach part.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

_


chicois8 said:



Dog wrote"I am not aware of any significant beach erosion in the area in which you are thinking of investing. Why do you suspect serious beach erosion? "

I believe when they extended the pier the supports were a different design as the first section and that design is stopping the sand from reaching the beach on the Sisal side,so it is not erosion but lack of new building materials for the beach to grow or at least maintain the sand levels...

Cluggee wrote his wife was allergic to mosquitos, remember the mosquitos carry Dengue Fever down here........

Click to expand...

_OK, chicois8; you say the Sisal side. Does your comment infer that the pier extension has not affected the other side from Chicxulub to Dzilam de Bravo which is the side we always drive rather than the Sisal side? Also, has the pier obstruction also caused beach erosion further on down the western coast from Sisal to, say, Celestun? I wouldn´t think so based on the configuration of the coast in that area. 

I was wondering, prior to your post, why that long pier was suddenly causing beach erosion when it has been there for a very long time. So, it is the different design of the new extension that is causing the problems for Sisal and envitons according to your comment. If I read you correctly, we needn´t worry for beaches east of the pier.


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## Cluggee (Jul 31, 2013)

Great to know!


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## Cluggee (Jul 31, 2013)

Hound Dog, as I am not permitted to post URLs yet, please Google 'Progreso pier study'. It is an academic paper on the effect of the pier on the shoreline in the area. Has some interesting information. The study is posted on the Academia.edu website. If you Google earth the pier as well, you can see how the sand is being sucked out to sea!


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## exclusiva (Oct 29, 2011)

Cluggee:
As someone who has owned a vacation property in the Telchac Puerto area (San Bruno) for eight years, I felt I had a lot of new information to offer to you on this topic. I also wanted to take the opportunity to dispel some misinformation written about the area.
So I sent you a long, detailed response which took some time to write, but which never arrived because Expat Forum inexplicably logged me out while I was writing it and it was lost in cyber space when It was posted.
Arghh.
even more aggravatingly, this is not the first time that has happened to me on this forum.
I notice that you posted the same question on YoListo. I also notice you live in Toronto. Since I live just north of Barrie, it would be much easier for me to just chat with you by phone. I have lots I can tell you about the area.
I will send you a PM on YoListo with my phone number and if you wish, you can call. It is just so much easier and faster and will give you a chance to explore your questions in more depth.
Gracias


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## mickisue1 (Mar 10, 2012)

Isla Verde said:


> Interesting. Maybe because you grew up in Alaska, over time you developed a resistance to their bite.


Exactly.

When my daughter came home from her first time in Italy, she had welts that didn't go away for two months from bites from Italian mosquitoes. Now they barely bother her.

We're all allergic to mosquito bites; that's why we get a reaction from them. But get bitten enough times by the same species, and it's like (almost literally!) getting allergy shots--you develop a tolerance for the allergen.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

Thanks for the infomation on the pier at Progreso, Cluggee. As a native of the Alabama Gulf Coast who spent much of my youth there and between there and Destin, Florida, I am very much aware of the problems with beach erosion caused by piers and breakwaters. I was simply unaware of this occurring at Sisal because of that Progreso pier extension. I will look into the references you provided and Google Earth later today. 

Since we plan to be in Telchak Puerto this winter for few days on our way to Isla Holbox and, superficially at least, find the arera quite appealing, I am sorry exclusiva´s detailed posting on the Telchak Puerto area didn´t take and I feel we would have benefitted from exclusiva´s posting information. Since several readers on this forum in addition to myself might have an interest in the Yucatan Gulf, I would urge exclusiva to re-submit at least an abbreviated posting on that area and the area between Chicxulub and Dzilam de Bravo if exclusiva is familiar with those areas as well. I realize that it has to be extremely irritating to be dropped during a lengthy posting - something that has not happened to me on the forum but this sort of informative posting is what this Expat Forum should be all about as opposed to the chatty and shallow social forums we see regarding the Lake Chapala expat community exclusively. That´s the reason I left those superficial forums to concentrate on this one and your input would be valuable to all of us interested in the Yucatan. Please reconsider, exclusiva.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

they do not have dengue or malaria in Italy so they can afford to experiemnt with the mosquitoes, not a good idea in Mexico.


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