# Land purchase question



## Guest (Nov 10, 2011)

I have used the search feature but had no luck finding old threads discussing my particular question on a land purchase. Instead of asking a Notario, I thought I would ask the experts here first. 

I am considering buying a piece of land that has escritura, but is part of a larger parcel and is not already divided. The entire parcel is bordered by ejido land that falls away on three sides, so there is a low chance of anyone else building nearby and blocking the great views. As part of his work, it is my understanding that the Notario will do whatever paperwork is needed to properly divide and separate the parcels and establish proper ownership.

My question: Will he also bring in a surveyor to determine and mark the parcel boundaries? I have searched locally for surveyors using the terms "topografo" and "agrimensor" but no listings. The current owner is building his new house on the parcel and is selling the other half of the land. I am not comfortable with his description of "the property line will go from here to here, and follow the stacked rock walls to the other end." 

Is using a surveyor normal, or is using existing boundaries the way things are done in MX? (part of my question is because should I buy this land, my first project is to convert the stacked rock walls into higher walls, using mortar and footings. I don't want to pour footings on the wrong side of the boundaries, and have the neighboring ejido come down on me.) Thanks in advance for your tips.


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

It is time to talk to a notario, for sure. Yes, you do need a survey and the seller should do that, and separate the lot legally before offering it for sale. It will need its own, separate escritura and description. Be certain that it can legally be sold and is not 'ejido'.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

Where, precisely, is this land located, Carlos? Is this ejido land or could it possibly be ejido land? You indicate that the land for sale is deeded but not yet subdivided. The boundaries are, according to you, indicated by "Kentucky Windage". I have lived in Mexico for ten years and own property in both Jalisco and Chiapas. I wouldn´t touch such a property, as you describe it, with a ten foot pole. Especially with adjacent ejido property. You are taking major risks if you buy that land in all probability. Don´t let a beautiful view cause you to lose rational thought processes.

Where the hell is Freedonia? Wisconsin?


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## Guest (Nov 10, 2011)

The land for sale is about 1000 m2 of a larger parcel of about 2000 m2 that already has escritura. I haven't seen the paperwork, and don't know if it is already divided, or if that still needs to be done. As part of making an offer on this land, is the first step (before any money changes hands) asking the owner to bring his escritura into the Notario's office to review and advise me?

Am I correct in assuming that if not yet done, the current owner pays the costs to divide and issue separate escrituras for each portion of this land, and for the surveying costs?

Note: Freedonia ("Land of the Brave, and Free") is a reference to the movie "Duck Soup". Watch it if you haven't, or watch it again if you are ever bored. I sometimes think I meet the Marx Brothers here in the streets, which keeps life interesting.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

Carlos:

Do not trust notarios. Do not trust anybody. Buy only land clearly and historically deeded. You could get screwed ten years down the line. 20 years down the line. 30 years down the line. 100 years down the line. 

When we bought in San Cristóbal de Las Casas we only bought in the heart of the ancient city. We would never have bought rural property in Chiapas. They wil rip you off so fast down there you will be walking around naked thinking you are still wearing your jockey shorts.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

*San Filipe*



Hound Dog said:


> Carlos:
> 
> Do not trust notarios. Do not trust anybody. Buy only land clearly and historically deeded. You could get screwed ten years down the line. 20 years down the line. 30 years down the line. 100 years down the line.
> 
> When we bought in San Cristóbal de Las Casas we only bought in the heart of the ancient city. We would never have bought rural property in Chiapas. They wil rip you off so fast down there you will be walking around naked thinking you are still wearing your jockey shorts.


The news paper 10 years ago and back had numerous accounts of what you have described in San Filipe, Baja. Hundreds of fraudulent escripturas, corrupt notarios, corrupt state registrar officials and corrupt lawyers. The targets were people wanting to live near or on the beach from NOB.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

GringoCArlos said:


> Note: Freedonia ("Land of the Brave, and Free") is a reference to the movie "Duck Soup". Watch it if you haven't, or watch it again if you are ever bored. I sometimes think I meet the Marx Brothers here in the streets, which keeps life interesting.


Dawg knows this movie well. Believe it or not, my reference to Wisconsin was intended to be amusing so I assume you are an amusing person or you would not have referenced Freedonia. Since I´m beginning to like you from afar, I say, don´t buy this property. 

Dawg


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## Guest (Nov 10, 2011)

So even if I were to use a trusted, well-recommended Notario, who researches and reviews the escritura, and then bought title insurance from a US company on top of it, I could still get screwed?

From what I have been able to Google, title insurance in MX through Stewart or American Title runs about $4 to $7 per thousand of value, covers MX property and/or land and is enforceable in the US under US laws with the issuing title insurance company - is this not true, or is it yet another scam? 

Sounds like I will remain a rentista. My whole point in buying terreno outside the city I live in is to get away from the hustle and bustle, and from neighbors living on each side who are too close for comfort. I don't want to listen to their dog, and don't want them listening to mine.


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## conklinwh (Dec 19, 2009)

Carlos, I know that there are a few very negative folk on this site and who knows, given unlimited time and the wrong circumstances they could be right.
Be that as it may, we have bought 3 lots just out side Pozos and like you for the view and ambiance. The 1st was a privately owned lot with a registered escritura. Registered is key as notarios can do escrituras but unless accepted and registered by obras publico of the governing municipality they aren't valid.
The 2nd two lots, and this will really set some people off, were ejido land. You can buy ejido land but you need be very careful. By the way, this ability is fairly recent and not well understood. We checked with both the municipality & the state where there is sort of an ejido "liaison officer" on the process. This also caused us to shop notarios to find one that had both a good reputation and the experience that we wanted in ejido transactions.
In the case of the private land, there was a surveyor sent out to verify the land and put in the property markers. By the way, we gained about 100 sq. meters. The notario did a good job of verifying both the existence of the escritura and that in fact was registered. He was also very careful in establishing that the seller was in fact the owner, luckily Mexico has a national ID.
The ejido situation was different and doesn't sound like germane but what notario did was to have all the officers come in with the up to date paperwork that showed they were in fact the elected officials with the right to act for the ejido. At this point there was a single escritura covering 11 lots with a map showing how would be subdivided. This of course as in your case was not sufficient. What had to happen was that the ejido had to legally subdivide and assign the lots to individual members that both needed to get surveyed but also had to get individually registered escrituras. Once the individuals had a surveyed lot and registered escritura in their name with appropriate ID, the notario said that it was appropriate to go to contract. BTW, each lot we bought had to again be individually surveyed.
In your case, I would 1st shop for notarios by talking to people that you trust. My expectation that the notario will tell the owner that before a valid contract, he or she would have to subdivide and get a separate registered escritura for the piece that you were buying. Expect that notario will tell you that prior to this the most that you should do is a non-binding Intent to Purchase with maybe a 3rd party such as a bank holding some small amount of earnest money. Once the lot you want had a registered escritura, then you would proceed to contract. This will most certainly kick off a survey even if just done as part of the subdivision. Once the notario had both the legal description and the verified lot boundries, he will let you move to close where the seller signs off on the escritura transfer and the notario starts the registration in your name.
I know long but so far so good!


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## Detailman (Aug 27, 2011)

Conklinwh,

Sounds very similar to dealing with native Indian lands in B.C.

Lands can be held by the native Indians in a variety of ways. Sometimes in common and sometimes in individual names. Multiple processes to go through if you want to deal with those lands.

Many of those who have dealt with Indian lands have had numerous problems and could have future problems as well. This is because they did not dot all their "i"s and cross all their "t"s.

I, and those that I was associated with, learned the rules and followed through on all the necessary details and as a result avoided the problems. The process can take years to do it right.

From what you say it could be the same in Mexico. There may be ways that GringoCarlos can do this but he just needs to make sure that he follows all the procedures without missing any steps.

I hope that others that have successfully gone through the procedure will also respond to his enquiry.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Detailman said:


> ...Sounds very similar to dealing with native Indian lands in B.C.
> ...


I suggest caution in extrapolating from native lands in BC to ejido land in Mexico. While they both are native lands, the laws and enforcement of them are very different in Mexico. Ejido land is a risky bet here, and you very much want to go into it knowing the risks and pitfalls. Horror stories of what can go wrong abound.


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## Detailman (Aug 27, 2011)

TundraGreen said:


> I suggest caution in extrapolating from native lands in BC to ejido land in Mexico. While they both are native lands, the laws and enforcement of them are very different in Mexico. Ejido land is a risky bet here, and you very much want to go into it knowing the risks and pitfalls. Horror stories of what can go wrong abound.



I would be foolish to deny what you say, especially as you live in Mexico. I only present another viewpoint based on personal experience, albeit in another country.

The fact remains that many people respond to what they hear from many sources and not to what they have personally experienced. As you say "many horror stories." (This is not meant as a slight.)

The vast majority of people in BC would have a very biassed opinion of dealing with native lands despite never having done so themselves. Their opinions are based on the experiences and stories of others, without having additional facts as to what those other individuals actually did or did not do to accomplish their goal. They have many "horror stories." The fact remains that in my scenario they did not fully understand the ramifications of what they were doing and proceeded in such a manner that they were not protected.

Native lands in BC are a huge issue involving land claims, municipal, provincial and federal governments and billions of dollars in land claims.

Despite that individuals and corporations can successfully deal with native lands if they do their homework and follow procedure.

Summary: Do not go by the stories of others until you find out whether: (a) they have first hand experience; (b) did their own diligent research; and (c) followed the necessary procedures to the letter of the law.

If anyone is looking for an easy solution -- I agree - BEWARE!


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## Guest (Nov 11, 2011)

Thank you for your detailed response, conklinwh. I will take some baby steps and talk to the Notario recommended to me by a friend who is a banker, and has also used him for personal transactions.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

GringoCarlos:

Just read those last two confused posts. If those two entirely ignorant posters don´t scare you
off then I have a bridge traversing the Golden Gate I´d like to sell you for only $1,000 USD. Cash only. Euros accepted at least until Italy bites the dust. Better still, use that $1,000 to hire yourself a psychiatrist because you will need one.


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## Detailman (Aug 27, 2011)

Hound Dog said:


> GringoCarlos:
> 
> Just read those last two confused posts. If those two entirely ignorant posters don´t scare you
> off then I have a bridge traversing the Golden Gate I´d like to sell you for only $1,000 USD. Cash only. Euros accepted at least until Italy bites the dust. Better still, use that $1,000 to hire yourself a psychiatrist because you will need one.


Despite how you reference the last two posters might I ask what actual experience you have? (And by experience I do not mean how many "stories" you have heard.)

What is your background? Perhaps you have actual experience that I could benefit from. I am willing to learn but I do not benefit from your sarcasm and I hope others recognize this.

I do not profess to have specific knowledge of Mexican property rights but I expressed a viewpoint based on over 30 years of experience of dealing with property in Canada, including native lands, and the danger of not following proper procedure versus doing things the correct way.

I have found in my life that those that resort to insults in a dialogue often have little to back up their arguments. I hope that this is not the case with you. Your insults come through loud and clear but sometimes I miss your supporting arguments (rationale).


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## joaquinx (Jul 3, 2010)

Detailman said:


> Despite how you reference the last two posters might I ask what actual experience you have? (And by experience I do not mean how many "stories" you have heard.)


These comments from Hound Dog are examples of how he gets banned from other forums. It appears as if he is working on another one.


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

'Ejido' land in Mexico should be avoided at all costs. You'll only 'think' you own it.
However, if you insist, the notario will gladly take your money, the banker will exact his fees and the ejido will profer some 'paper'. It may be entirely worthless, or you may have to vacate if the ejido decides, later, that you aren't a 'nice person'.
This is nothing like 'native lands' in Canada; nor is the culture.


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## Detailman (Aug 27, 2011)

RVGRINGO said:


> 'Ejido' land in Mexico should be avoided at all costs. You'll only 'think' you own it.
> However, if you insist, the notario will gladly take your money, the banker will exact his fees and the ejido will profer some 'paper'. It may be entirely worthless, or you may have to vacate if the ejido decides, later, that you aren't a 'nice person'.
> This is nothing like 'native lands' in Canada; nor is the culture.


RVGringo,

I respect your expertise so I will venture no further opinions at this time or provide comparisons to native lands in Canada.

I have decided to do extensive research on Ejido lands for my own edification, as land purchases, negotiations and legalities have been a big part of my life in BC.

I also appreciate the tone of your reply (much better than the "other" poster).


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## joaquinx (Jul 3, 2010)

In a Mexican to Mexican ejido transaction in Las Choapas, Veracruz, my friend had to first go to the ejido council and get permission to sell the land. After it was approved, he had to go to San Andrés Tuxtla to some type of land office there. We spent the entire day there waiting in line or waiting for some official to show up, plus a few pesos to speed up the process until permission was granted for the sale. Then we went up to Xalapa to the state/federal office and had the sale registered and the transfer completed. 

If it takes this much bureaucracy for a Mexican to sell ejido land, what kind of success can a ****** have?


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## Detailman (Aug 27, 2011)

RVGRINGO said:


> 'Ejido' land in Mexico should be avoided at all costs. You'll only 'think' you own it.
> However, if you insist, the notario will gladly take your money, the banker will exact his fees and the ejido will profer some 'paper'. It may be entirely worthless, or you may have to vacate if the ejido decides, later, that you aren't a 'nice person'.
> This is nothing like 'native lands' in Canada; nor is the culture.


RVGRINGO,

I tried to send you a private message but I am not sure if it went through. Let me know if you recieved it. Thanks.


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## Detailman (Aug 27, 2011)

*Ejido Lands*

The link below will connect to a Mexican attorney site and an article about Ejido lands.

Mexico Law and Mexico Attorneys

At the top of that site there is a drop down section entitled: Articles and Seminars.

Under that section you will find the article entitled:

HOW REALISTIC AND REASONABLE IS ACQUIRING EJIDO LAND IN MEXICO?

Laws in any country are very complex and those not used to the legal system or dealing with the details may have the tendency to repeat what they hear on the street or form opinions based on their limited experience. Whereas their experience is their “reality” it does not necessarily reflect the general facts.

The above article should provide a basic understanding of the issues involved and how to deal with Ejido lands in one wishes to do so. As the article mentions, the process is somewhat convoluted and can take considerable time but for some individuals the process way be worthwhile. That is a decision they personally must make.

In an earlier post I drew a parallel with First Nation lands in BC. Some objected to this parallel.

I can personally speak about First Nation lands as I was involved with successfully developing on said lands. As a result I do not speak on the basis of other’s stories but from actual experience.

Since my last post I have been able to compare my knowledge of and experiences with First Nation lands with what I garnered from various sites explaining Ejido lands. As a result I have confirmed my suspicion that there are many similarities, with a few differences.

The good thing about this forum is that with such varied backgrounds and experience we should all be able to learn from each other and adjust our viewpoints when warranted. Of course, some will do so and others will refuse.

My intent is to continue to learn. I hope we all feel the same way.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Detailman said:


> ··· As a result I have confirmed my suspicion that there are many similarities, with a few differences. ···


I would be interested to know what differences you see between purchasing native lands in Canada and ejido property in Mexico.


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## Detailman (Aug 27, 2011)

TundraGreen said:


> I would be interested to know what differences you see between purchasing native lands in Canada and ejido property in Mexico.


The philosophies as to how the indigenous people view land are very similar, if not almost identical. The process of being able to deal with First Nation lands is also similar in that it is a multi-step process involving both the First Nation people themselves and the government. If you omit any step you can end up with the process being challenged. That is where most people make mistakes.

The difference is that you cannot “buy” First Nation lands. The Federal Government holds the lands as a trustee for the First Nation peoples.

You can enter into a lease of those lands with the Federal Government acting as the Lessor. The leases can be up to 99 years long. Normally it would be a land developer that would do this and he can then sell off (lease) surveyed portions of lands to individuals or he could build residential units (townhouses, condos, single family homes) and “sell” them. 

In the Vancouver area there are many examples of all types of First Nation developments.

On the Dollarton Highway leading to Deep Cove there are numerous multi-family units (both townhouses and condo apartments) that were built jointly between the First Nation tribe and the developer. Those units were then sold to individuals who in turn can resell them to others. (In reality it is an assignment of the lease and again you have to make sure that you get approval from all the necessary parties.) Currently there have been over 800 units built in this area alone.

You find the same situation on the First Nation lands adjacent to the ferry terminal that goes to Victoria, BC, although on a smaller scale.

Within the City of West Vancouver the high end shopping centre called Park Royal is on First Nation lands. It is occupied by many national tenants. That is a shopping centre of just under 1,000,000 square feet of commercial space. It was first started in 1950 and has expanded over time.

There are First Nation lands situated in the inner city core of Vancouver by the Cambie Street bridge and they have put forward the idea of building high rise concrete condominiums and commercial space on those lands.

In the area of the University of British Columbia (UBC) there are single family homes built in the Southwoods area on First Nation lands. These would be upward of million dollar homes.

Billions of dollars have been spent and further billions will be spend developing First Nation lands.

99 year leases are not unique to First Nations. As an example, the City of Vancouver has residential developments with 99 year leases in the Champlain area.

This is very basic but I trust it answers your question. Main difference is that you cannot “buy” First Nation lands and have title transferred to your name. But in actual fact a 99 year lease is viewed by many as a purchase with resulting rights to mortgage, etc.


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## Detailman (Aug 27, 2011)

*First Nation land process*



TundraGreen said:


> I would be interested to know what differences you see between purchasing native lands in Canada and ejido property in Mexico.


The following is a site that explains the procedure for First Nation lands in a more detailed way than I was able to get into in a single post.

Pushor Mitchell | Indian Land Transactions

The way this one is written provides a good comparison and again it is by lawyers who know the process.


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

It should be noted that attorneys (abogados) in Mexico do not handle real estate matters. They are not qualified to do so and have a lower level of education than licensed 'notarios' with specialized knowledge of real estate, wills, etc.
We have found that Mexican attornieys are often wrong and seldo up to date with changes in law.
One should always proceed with caution.


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## Detailman (Aug 27, 2011)

RVGRINGO said:


> It should be noted that attorneys (abogados) in Mexico do not handle real estate matters. They are not qualified to do so and have a lower level of education than licensed 'notarios' with specialized knowledge of real estate, wills, etc.
> We have found that Mexican attornieys are often wrong and seldo up to date with changes in law.
> One should always proceed with caution.


Agreed.

Personally, I take very little at face value, whether it be what I hear, read or am told -even by professionals.

My experience with lawyers, architects, engineers, physicians, bankers, brokers, real estate agents, government representatives, etc. is that they can and do all make mistakes.

I view it as my responsibility to verify the facts before I proceed, as ultimately I am responsible for myself and my loved ones in this life.


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## Detailman (Aug 27, 2011)

*Abogados versus notarios*

As a point of clarification all ‘notarios’ (notaries) are ‘abogados’ (attorneys). Notarios must have practised for a minimum of five years as abogados and then, with the addition of specialized knowledge and additional training under established notarios are appointed as notarios by the government, which is viewed as a very high accomplishment. The scope of their responsibilities and duties differ greatly from abogados.

So all notarios are abogados. Most abogados are not notarios.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

Please, folks, if you wish to pontificate on "first nation´s" land in Canada and "ejido" land in Mexico, try to understand the fundamental difference between the two /deleted/. In Mexico, the equivalent of "first nation´s" land in Canada is "indian lands". "Ejido" lands are re-distributed lands to indigenous campesinos and costañeros taken from landed gentry many years ago and cooperatively owned by indigenous people with land management governorship managed by an ejido authority. If you are a foreigner, a term loosely defined in Mexico, you do not want to buy either "ejido" or "indian" land unless you have a high tolerance for the risk of clear ownership¨no matter what you are told by some crooked judge or local civic administration. You may find that by the time you leave your new estate, the only thing you still own are a pair of jockey shorts and some ill-fitting brogans. You may find, when it´s too late for equitable remedy, that you can´t even legally own "indian" land or that the "ejido" council has taken you for a fool and sold you land they never had a right to sell you in the first place for any number of reasons. Don´t ask, just get the hell out of there while you can. Run - don´t walk.


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## tepetapan (Sep 30, 2010)

joaquinx said:


> These comments from /deleted/.


 I agree.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Everybody: Stick to the discussion and skip the comments on others style, IQ, or other irrelevant side issues. Agree or disagree with what they say.


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## conklinwh (Dec 19, 2009)

Hound Dog, it always amazes me how wishy washy that you are. Why don't you say what you really think.
As to ejido lands, don't generalize. Since 1992 there has been a formal process on how ejido lands can be privatized and sold. It is valid to say that more complex, requires some specialized knowledge, and with most things involving the legal system and municipalities, go carefully.


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## JohnSoCal (Sep 2, 2007)

Detailman said:


> Despite how you reference the last two posters might I ask what actual experience you have? (And by experience I do not mean how many "stories" you have heard.)
> 
> What is your background? Perhaps you have actual experience that I could benefit from. I am willing to learn but I do not benefit from your sarcasm and I hope others recognize this.
> 
> ...


The big difference in Mexico and Canada are the enforcement of laws or lack of in Mexico and the widespread institutionalized corruption in Mexico. Therefore comparing native land in Canada with ejido land in Mexico is only valid theoretically but is NOT valid in reality.


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## JohnSoCal (Sep 2, 2007)

Detailman said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Personally, I take very little at face value, whether it be what I hear, read or am told -even by professionals.
> 
> ...


You are making a very serious mistake in trying to compare Canadian and Mexican law.

Just for a little background, my wife is Mexican and we lived in Mexico for 4 years. I am fluent in Spanish, worked in Mexico and started a business there. Our son played professional baseball in Mexico not that it has any bearing on this but I alway like to add that.

What you read about the law in Mexico and the reality of it are completely different. There is widespread institutionalized corruption in Mexico. That is a fact. Apart from the corruption, Mexico has a completely different legal system. There are no licensing requirements in Mexico to sell real estate. People often sell property in Mexico that they don't own and the buyer is stuck as there is no legal recourse.

As others have warned, don't even consider purchasing ejido land.


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## JohnSoCal (Sep 2, 2007)

RVGRINGO said:


> 'Ejido' land in Mexico should be avoided at all costs. You'll only 'think' you own it.
> However, if you insist, the notario will gladly take your money, the banker will exact his fees and the ejido will profer some 'paper'. It may be entirely worthless, or you may have to vacate if the ejido decides, later, that you aren't a 'nice person'.
> This is nothing like 'native lands' in Canada; nor is the culture.


Exactly!!


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## Detailman (Aug 27, 2011)

*Procedure versus law*



JohnSoCal said:


> You are making a very serious mistake in trying to compare Canadian and Mexican law.
> 
> What you read about the law in Mexico and the reality of it are completely different. There is widespread institutionalized corruption in Mexico. That is a fact. Apart from the corruption, Mexico has a completely different legal system. There are no licensing requirements in Mexico to sell real estate. People often sell property in Mexico that they don't own and the buyer is stuck as there is no legal recourse.QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## joaquinx (Jul 3, 2010)

For those wanting to buy ejido land read this from the Guadalajara Reporter Fury over Tenacatita beach takeover | Guadalajara Reporter


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## abscissa (Apr 5, 2010)

joaquinx said:


> For those wanting to buy ejido land read this from the Guadalajara Reporter Fury over Tenacatita beach takeover | Guadalajara Reporter


happened with ejido land in Tulum too ... same scenario as Tenacatita


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

*Punta Banda*



abscissa said:


> happened with ejido land in Tulum too ... same scenario as Tenacatita


Same thing happened in Ensenada with ejido beachfront property.

Punta Banda Real Estate, the Story :: who screw who?


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## kcowan (Jul 24, 2010)

Detailman said:


> Within the City of West Vancouver the high end shopping centre called Park Royal is on First Nation lands. It is occupied by many national tenants. That is a shopping centre of just under 1,000,000 square feet of commercial space. It was first started in 1950 and has expanded over time.


We also live on Native lands in Park Royal Towers. The land lease was signed in 1967 for 99 years. We started renting in 1997 and get the benefit of rent controls for our 3300 sq.ft. penthouse. Would you believe $1/month for every square foot!

We also have good friends at Los Tules PV who own the timeshare above where we used to own. They are from Orange County California and they used to "own" a condo in Baja. After 15 years, a native came out of the woodwork and made a claim to this regularized ejido land. Every condo owner had to pay another US$50k to keep their condo. They paid up, then sold it, and will never own property in Mexico again.

We have a condo with an escritura in old town PV. So far so good. 50 years from 2008, the escitura will have to be renewed. If it holds out that long, our heirs will get a windfall inheritance.


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## kcowan (Jul 24, 2010)

JohnSoCal said:


> There are no licensing requirements in Mexico to sell real estate. People often sell property in Mexico that they don't own and the buyer is stuck as there is no legal recourse.


We bought our condo in PV from the Prudential listing agent, assured that Prudential makes sure that the listing person has the right to sell the property.

Except that the "owner" was given power of attorney from his brother in Guadalajara. Except that POA expires after one year in Jalisco. Oops! But then the brother did not want to take the capital gain from the sale. So the property was first sold to his Mexican wife who could claim exemption from the CG. The process took 6 months after we got the keys and we got interest on the entire principal during that time from American Title in Jacksonville, Fla.

So I think we made OK. But when someone says that the owner has the right to sell a Maxican property, it is buyer beware! In this case, our notary handled it all. But you can never assume anything. Especially if you don't understand Spanish legalese.


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## conklinwh (Dec 19, 2009)

I've read both of the links that imply that buying ejido land is the problem. However the clear issue in both links is that the land was in a known dispute that would have been found with due diligence. Maybe we have a unique ejido but they are very forth coming about which lands have a clear title and which lands are in dispute. 
As I had said earlier, there is a clear process for buying ejido land that was laid out in 1992. In both of the links, this was not followed to disastrous consequences.
Again, it is more complex, requirers more leg work and knowledge but not out of the question.


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

Note that 'title insurance' does not insure that you will continue to 'own' your property in the event of a dispute or prior claim. It only 'insures' that the company will help you fight for it. You may very well lose. It is generally worthless and a waste of money in the USA and not a 'Mexican thing'. Yet, some expats have 'franchised' such services in Mexico and convinced other expats that they should waste their money with them. Don't be a sucker. No US rules or laws have any bearing in Mexico.


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## kcowan (Jul 24, 2010)

conklinwh said:


> As I had said earlier, there is a clear process for buying ejido land that was laid out in 1992. In both of the links, this was not followed to disastrous consequences.
> 
> Again, it is more complex, requirers more leg work and knowledge but not out of the question.


Well you have heard the opinion here loud and clear. So now you are on your own.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Just to take the conversation in a slightly different direction, I can relate another property horror story. I heard this second hand, so I cannot vouch for the veracity or details, but it was only second hand and occurred right down the street from where I live.

One of my neighbors bought a house from a priest. A few years later the government decided that it had been church property and that the priest had no legal right to sell it. They confiscated the house.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

*House seizures*



TundraGreen said:


> Just to take the conversation in a slightly different direction, I can relate another property horror story. I heard this second hand, so I cannot vouch for the veracity or details, but it was only second hand and occurred right down the street from where I live.
> 
> One of my neighbors bought a house from a priest. A few years later the government decided that it had been church property and that the priest had no legal right to sell it. They confiscated the house.


I was told by a property management company in Mexicali that if you lease a house to anyone arrested for drug dealing the house is confiscated and it is up to the owner to prove he had no knowledge or involvement in the their crime to get the house back and can take time and money or can be almost no problem at all.

If you use a property management company the responsibility falls to them to prove non-involvement as long as they solicited the renter and not you.

I also heard a story second hand that an American bought land and built a house in Rosarito and the govt. needed his land, among others, to build an electrical sub station and he had it for decades and when he fought it in court he paid a lot of money and in the end he had it confiscated for a technicality and didn't receive any money for it. This was 20 years ago.

Another story is from a guy I worked with. He is a Mexican with a green card and sold his house in SD to his son and bought a lot on the cliff of the ocean in Playas de Tijuana. The women who took his $85,000. dollars had sold the property to 2 other people on the same day. He fought it in court and in the end he got nothing back, she didn't get charged with fraud and one of the other persons got the title to the lot. This was 6 years ago. His lawyer told him if he would have given him much more than the $6,000 dollars he gave him he could have gotten the lot in his name instead of the other persons.


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## conklinwh (Dec 19, 2009)

I think the situation is that buying any land or other property is somewhat of a crap shoot.
All you can do is be careful, try to be as familiar as possible with the applicable processes, ask about people and relationships and maximize due diligence.
What I haven't seen is any difference in related experiences between ejido & non-ejido.
As the famous philosopher Dorothy said to Toto, we aren't in Kansas anymore!


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

The purchase of an existing home in a normal situation is quite simple, compared to the ejido complications.
There are deeds and a paper trail that can be searched in the 'catastro'.


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## Solomon (Jun 19, 2011)

I just saw all of this thread and thought I'd put in my two cents.

A Notario, while being a lawyer, is never YOUR lawyer. A Notario's job is not to be your lawyer, nor to make sure that your interests are best served, their job is to make sure that the legal process of the business-at-hand is followed. People often misunderstand what a Notario is for. There have been corrupt Notarios in the past, I would like to think those days are over. If you are interested in having someone to look out for your interests, you need to hire a lawyer who will work as your private council and work to protect your rights.

Buying land that is included in an Ejido regime is not possible for foreigners (non-mexicans) until the land has been unincorporated from the Ejido. This is a long process and requires a lot of paperwork. Again, your attorney should be able to advise you as to the status of the land.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

This has been an interesting and informative thread. The several horror stories I read here about long-time supposed established land owners having their properties confiscated are old hat to people who have lived here for any substantial length of time. We suspected, when we retired to Mexico in 2001. that the most prudent thing to do would be to buy property in long-developed urban areas in barrios also well established with long, easily traceable histories of uncomplicated ownership chains and that is what we did at both Lake Chapala and in San Cristóbal de Las Casas in long established communities. So far so good but, as we all know the only things that are certain are death and taxes and, in Mexico, if one is ostentatious in one´s consumption of personal property or valued lands, the possibility is always there that someone else, not of their initial acquaintance, may start to envy that property and have the audacity to try to take it away from them - sometimes successfully - especially if that covetous person or persons is/are well connected in the community. Mexico is not necessarily the best political jurisdiction in which to own the best car or view property or most visibly magnificent house or, even, the best business franchise. Mexico is a political jurisdiction where one benefits from having a publicly modest persona. I still remember looking at a home in Talapa, Jalisco which looked rundown and unattractive from the street but was a spacious and very attractive home in its interior and owned by a rich local gent who warned us when we approached that house that the dilapidated exterior was intentionallly hiding an interior jewel so as not to attract too much attention and, thus various types of envious would-be thieves. 

In around 2005 when we were looking for a second home purchase away from Lake Chapala, at that time favoring a winter beach home, we took a boat ride over the Pacific from the small village of Boca de Tomatlan to Jelapa, Jalisco just outside of Puerto Vallarta. Now it happens that the village of Jelapa is only reachable, practically speaking, by boat over the open Pacific from other points along the coast there and it also happens that Jelapa is an Indian Community. Not an ejido but an indian community which means that we had no option to buy there - period. Well, it just so happens that the owner of the overseas ferry boat that too us on the short trip to Jelapa was not only the owner of that boat ferry servive but, in Jelapa, the most prosperous seaside restaurant and primary grocery and dry goods store in town. It seems he used the ferry service to try to convince tourists to settle into Jelapa - preferable part time - so he could prosper by having them as clients.

On the boat trip over and then as we enjoyed some shrimp cocktails at his restaurant on the beach, he approached us with the following proposition. First he acknowledged that we could not legally buy land in Yelapa but that he had developed an alternative plan for foreigners so that they could enjoy living near the beach at Yelapa for life and he would make their life even easier by supplying thems with food and drink from his store so they never had to take the lengthy boat trip into Puerto Vallarta for shopping. The scheme was that he and his family would lease us a lot for life at a very reasonable cost and all we had to do was build a modest home on the premise that would be ours until we expired. Upon our deaths, the home we had built and the land would revert to his family´s sole interest. Of course, as it happened he ould also be the building contractor who would construct this home so we would not have to fret about that problem. Oh, he would also be our property manager when we were not there and rent the property on our behalf.

As part of his sales pitch, he took us to a small home on a very large and pleasant lot just out of town and told us the lessees were a couple from Oregon and they had bought into this lease-for-life plan a few years before. It seems, however, that they rarely visited Yelapa after the first few visits so we could rent the home as a vacation spot for as long as we wished paying rent to him directly, of courseand with the assurance that he would see to it that the refrigerator was always filled with beer and food so we never had to leave Yelapa. On the other hand, he offered us the same deal as that Oregon couple who, for some reason, rarely if ever showed up there any more.

Of course, we took the next and fastest boat out of there and back to Toma de Tomatlan but obviously this scheme was working on some folks as he had his sales spiel practiced to perfection. We, however, had not just arrived on the turnip truck. Yelapa is a nice place but if you go there, rent one of the nice beachfront hotels there, enjoy a shrimp cocktail and get the hell out of there with your wallet mostly intact.


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## kcowan (Jul 24, 2010)

Good story Hound_Dog. I think the biggest problem is that gringos assume that things here are as they seem. I live in PV and there are numerous properties downtown hidden behind unpainted walls that house gems such as you experienced. BTW was the Talpa or Tapalpa? I have been to both and it seems to be more typical of Tapalpa. We have friends who own a ranch there.

Yelapa now has "city" water, power and Internet so it is more attractive for those seeking a getaway for a short time. There is a road from the highway but it is not used much (more like a jungle trail for the brave).


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## Davidc (Nov 20, 2011)

*Land, lot, escritura?*



GringoCArlos said:


> I have used the search feature but had no luck finding old threads discussing my particular question on a land purchase. Instead of asking a Notario, I thought I would ask the experts here first.
> 
> I am considering buying a piece of land that has escritura, but is part of a larger parcel and is not already divided. The entire parcel is bordered by ejido land that falls away on three sides, so there is a low chance of anyone else building nearby and blocking the great views. As part of his work, it is my understanding that the Notario will do whatever paperwork is needed to properly divide and separate the parcels and establish proper ownership.
> 
> ...


First, how are you taking title to the land that is if it is able to be divided?
Second, how do you know the escritura for the total overall parcel will be sufficient to give you title and escritura for your single parcel?
Third, are you absolutely certain that the ejido will not claim this land? Even if there is a dispute between ejido and private ownership it could be tied up in the court for years and your money is at risk.
Fourth, do you trust the original owner, the notary, the surveyor? A lot of scams out there.
Fifth, is the escritura notarized properly and recorded with government authorities? What are the recording numbers and can they be researched to your satisfaction?
Just a few cautions, as I´ve been there and done that many times. Good luck!


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