# Let's Hear it for the Costa Del Sol...



## mrypg9

I'm getting fed up with the poor old CDS being written off as a kind of Brit immigrant colony populated by either beer-drinking pizza-eating tattooed types who want Blackpool with sun or a load of tarts and gangsters.. When I told friends we were moving from Prague to the CDS their reactions were raised eyebrows, comments along the lines of 'But it's full of tarts, gangsters and chavs'...comments more revealing of the ignorance of the person making them than anything else.
Then you get the comments along the lines of 'Well, it's not really Spain, is it...' or 'It's so ugly. Totally spoilt by all the construction in the last decade'.
Beneath these comments lies ignorance, snobbery and a kind of cultural superiority, itself a kind of snobbery.
I've lived for four years in a small village on the coast road between Marbella and Estepona. You couldn't find a more 'Spanish' ambiance. Yes, there are a few British immigrants, not many,but then where in Spain will you not find them?
The towns along the Costa are as different as the proverbial chalk and cheese. Some I like, some I loathe. Sobre los gustos no hay disputos. But they are all recognisably Andalucian and Spanish.
I prefer small quiet places but like to be within easy reach of towns. I like the beach and I like the Sierras. The CDS offers all kinds of countryside, most of it beautiful. Yes, there are some ugly developments....but not only on the CDS.
I'm getting a tad tired of my chosen part of Spain being written off as 'not really Spain' or as somehow being radically culturally different in a non-Spanish way from other parts.
Spanish culture and the Spanish people are strong and self-confident enough to maintain their essential Spanishness whatever.
So Mods...perhaps we should have a sweary filter whenever the phrase 'real Spain' or anything similar crops up????

Only joking.


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## thrax

Well I totally agree with you but for one thing which is your undoubtedly tongue in cheek remark about the sweary rules. Obviously we want to let people say what they want on the forum, that's democracy and freedom of speach isn't it?, but if we let them say it then we can spot the idiots early on.....


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## jimenato

Yup - I fully agree Mary and I don't even live there. Finances and other things permitting I would move back to Estepona tomorrow although I'm quite happy inland here as well.


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## XTreme

mrypg9 said:


> it's full of tarts...


Really? What's the best time to go there?


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## brocher

Can I offer my first impressions as someone half way between a tourist and a resident - once - removed!

I've been in the CdS three times over the last year, helping my daughter set up to live there, so I viewed everything differently from someone just visiting for two weeks hols. Or else I’m the first person to spend their hols in Estate Agents and Ikea!

I have not seen the side of Marbella that’s full of “tarts, gangsters and chavs,” nor do I find it upmarket – nor, actually, too tacky touristy. Staying in the centre of Marbella, going to local shops, etc. I encounter almost 100% Spanish, non English speakers, going about their daily lives. Some waiters, etc directly engaged in the tourist trade speak very good English, of course, but mostly I just feel as though I am in a normal “working” town. Of course, that may be partly because I don’t bother visiting the “posh” shops and clubs I can’t afford, but have spent a great deal of time in Chinese Bazaars, Euroshops, supermarkets, etc doing “normal” stuff, buying food and bits and pieces for the flat. I do not feel like I have to dress up, not even at night really, but maybe I’m just too thick to notice or care!

I think most of the “tarts, gangsters and chavs,” stay further out in the urbanisations, frequenting designer shops and exclusive nightclubs and mixing in their own circles, as they would in any town/ city in the world. 

Great prog (repeat) on TV the other night, one of the Escape to the Sun things, helping a WAG spend 1.9million in Marbella. Then they show you other stuff on the market –and this chap selling his 5million villa in Soto grande sits there, quite seriously, and says the difference betweem SG and Marbella , is that in Marbella they like to show their wealth, in SG they are much more discreet!

P Banus – can’t comment personally, spent an afternoon there and it was dead, not a soul to be seen around the designer shops – guess they were still sleeping off the night before. Second hand comments – “it’s very Brits on holiday, dancing on the tables” and another “it isn’t so posh when the party goers are p**sing in the streets, as they move from bar to bar.” Enough of that!

Must have a very mistaken view of Estapona on our one day visit. Got off bus and the area really did have a very depressed and empty feel, even the beach was almost deserted in July. Found the shopping area and it seemed to be busy with tourists, then wandered through a much prettier area of traditional houses – still very quiet. The only really busy area seemed to be Carrefour! First impressions must be wrong, Mary.

I guess some of the best things about the CdS are its climate, compared with other areas of Spain – slippers, fleece and duvet but no heating required, I’m told! And its location, which gives easy access to such a variety of different landscapes, as already mentioned, the beach and the Sierras. Where else could you set off for a day on the ski slopes then return home in the evening just before Xmas, and its 18 degrees outdoors.

I’ve seen far worse places than CdS!


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## Stravinsky

I've only been to Marbella once, and that was in the 70's

I read a book called the Drifters, and it made me go to Torremolinos. I enjoyed it, but Fuengirola ... which I can never spoll properly .... was just a small market town in those days.

The Hotel water supply didn't work properly, and one day the internal door handle fell off, trapping us in the hotel room. I went to a Spanish cultural night in a local white village where they served copious amounts of Sangria which made me quite horribly ill for several days. We drank in a bar called the Spotted Dog, and it never closed. The owner was Dutch with a waxed handlebar moustache and always wore a fez. I don't know why. 

I was stopped by the Spanish Customs coming back from a two day trip to Northern Africa via Ceuta where, as a matter of interest, a male belly dancer had tried to pick me up in a local tea room. I had an Orange leather bag with nothing in it at all, and I think they suspected me of bringing in drugs. Furthermore, the German who they had already stopped had gesticulated in my general direction because I had quite long hair, was scruffy, and was travelling with a gay friend who insisted on wearing extremely bright colourful shirts and trousers as well as a big black sombrero.

Apart from that it was great. I'd go back. Those things couldn't happen to one man twice could they!

Sorry for woffling


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## mrypg9

brocher said:


> Cn I offer my first impressions as someone half way between a tourist and a resident - once - removed!
> 
> 
> 
> Must have a very mistaken view of Estapona on our one day visit. Got off bus and the area really did have a very depressed and empty feel, even the beach was almost deserted in July. Found the shopping area and it seemed to be busy with tourists, then wandered through a much prettier area of traditional houses – still very quiet. The only really busy area seemed to be Carrefour! First impressions must be wrong, Mary.
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> No, you're not wrong. Estepona is very depressed. The Ayto can barely afford basic services as it was left perhaps the largest municipal debt in Spain by the previous PSOE Mayor, a lovely honest man with sadly no business sense.
> Unemployment is higher than the Malaga average and there is a feeling of emptiness which you sensitively detected.
> Estepona is trying to make its mark as a family resort, a place for middle-class Spanish families to spend their holidays. A bit like Bournemouth used to be. You won't see the kind of people who want night-life and trendy bars and restaurants.
> The new Alcalde is doing a good job in the eight months he's been in office but it's a steep uphill climb.
> You won't hear much English spoken in Estepona - more likely to hear Arabic or German. Like Simon, I could happily live there and if we can't afford our current house it's likely we'll look for a smaller place in Estepona.
> I have naked prejudices about Sotogrande, PB and Marbella. But I have always said they are subjective and probably quite unfounded. But we are all allowed our harmless silly prejudices, aren't we...
> We looked around inland areas of Spain when we first came but ended up where we are chiefly because our family's house is very close. I have grown to very much appreciate being able to live in our little community.
> I don't listen to people in the UK airing their misconceptions of the CdS. Most of them know sod-all about it.
> But I get very peeved when I hear or read those kind of comments from people here who seem to think that they alone know the 'real' Spain, that their little corner is somehow more 'authentic' than Mijas or Marbella.
> Imo that view is not only wrong...it's patronising, pretentious and in a minor way offensive to both the immigrant and indigenous population to infer they are somehow not 'authentic'.


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## Stravinsky

mrypg9 said:


> brocher said:
> 
> 
> 
> Cn I offer my first impressions as someone half way between a tourist and a resident - once - removed!
> 
> 
> 
> Must have a very mistaken view of Estapona on our one day visit. Got off bus and the area really did have a very depressed and empty feel, even the beach was almost deserted in July. Found the shopping area and it seemed to be busy with tourists, then wandered through a much prettier area of traditional houses – still very quiet. The only really busy area seemed to be Carrefour! First impressions must be wrong, Mary.
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> No, you're not wrong. Estepona is very depressed. The Ayto can barely afford basic services as it was left perhaps the largest municipal debt in Spain by the previous PSOE Mayor, a lovely honest man with sadly no business sense.
> Unemployment is higher than the Malaga average and there is a feeling of emptiness which you sensitively detected.
> Estepona is trying to make its mark as a family resort, a place for middle-class Spanish families to spend their holidays. A bit like Bournemouth used to be. You won't see the kind of people who want night-life and trendy bars and restaurants.
> The new Alcalde is doing a good job in the eight months he's been in office but it's a steep uphill climb.
> You won't hear much English spoken in Estepona - more likely to hear Arabic or German. Like Simon, I could happily live there and if we can't afford our current house it's likely we'll look for a smaller place in Estepona.
> I have naked prejudices about Sotogrande, PB and Marbella. But I have always said they are subjective and probably quite unfounded. But we are all allowed our harmless silly prejudices, aren't we...
> We looked around inland areas of Spain when we first came but ended up where we are chiefly because our family's house is very close. I have grown to very much appreciate being able to live in our little community.
> I don't listen to people in the UK airing their misconceptions of the CdS. Most of them know sod-all about it.
> But I get very peeved when I hear or read those kind of comments from people here who seem to think that they alone know the 'real' Spain, that their little corner is somehow more 'authentic' than Mijas or Marbella.
> Imo that view is not only wrong...it's patronising, pretentious and in a minor way offensive to both the immigrant and indigenous population to infer they are somehow not 'authentic'.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm afraid I have to withdraw from threads now where people say they have found the real Spain, or want to find it. Frankly most of them wouldn't know it if they found it (I'm not sure I would, because I dont know what it is) and for some it means eating out it a "real" Spanish restaurant
Click to expand...


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## Pesky Wesky

Stravinsky said:


> I've only been to Marbella once, and that was in the 70's
> 
> I read a book called the Drifters, and it made me go to Torremolinos. I enjoyed it, but Fuengirola ... which I can never spoll properly .... was just a small market town in those days.
> 
> The Hotel water supply didn't work properly, and one day the internal door handle fell off, trapping us in the hotel room. I went to a Spanish cultural night in a local white village where they served copious amounts of Sangria which made me quite horribly ill for several days. We drank in a bar called the Spotted Dog, and it never closed. The owner was Dutch with a waxed handlebar moustache and always wore a fez. I don't know why.
> 
> I was stopped by the Spanish Customs coming back from a two day trip to Northern Africa via Ceuta where, as a matter of interest, a male belly dancer had tried to pick me up in a local tea room. I had an Orange leather bag with nothing in it at all, and I think they suspected me of bringing in drugs. Furthermore, the German who they had already stopped had gesticulated in my general direction because I had quite long hair, was scruffy, and was travelling with a gay friend who insisted on wearing extremely bright colourful shirts and trousers as well as a big black sombrero.
> 
> Apart from that it was great. I'd go back. Those things couldn't happen to one man twice could they!
> 
> Sorry for woffling


A couple of photos of Stravinsky circa Fuengirola 1970's and Stravinsky 2012 would be an interesting addition to this post!


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## Stravinsky

Pesky Wesky said:


> A couple of photos of Stravinsky circa Fuengirola 1970's and Stravinsky 2012 would be an interesting addition to this post!


It would be far too frightening for you all. Even now I still sport a ponytail, which quite frankly should have gone years ago 

Better get back on topic before we get shouted at by some mod.

But here you go
Then:










Now:


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## Alcalaina

Our main reason for not wanting to live in the CDS or CB was the extent of irreversible environmental damage caused by the massive boom in the construction industry and the building of endless golf courses. 

This is symbolised in my mind by those great clusters of ornate salmon-pink villas sprawling all over the hillsides which used to be covered in pines. Hand in hand with such developments are deep rooted corruption and greed which is still oozing to the surface.

I'm sure there are beautiful places like where Mary lives but they are way out of our price range.

I don't in any way feel superior or look down on people who choose to live there. We all have different tastes and needs. I don't like crowds, nightclubs, shopping centres or fast food, so I live where there aren't any. I expect most people who enjoy life on the CDS would die of boredom up here where the social highlight of a Saturday night is a game of dominoes on the Alameda, but it suits me.


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## Pesky Wesky

Stravinsky said:


> It would be far too frightening for you all. Even now I still sport a ponytail, which quite frankly should have gone years ago
> 
> Better get back on topic before we get shouted at by some mod.
> 
> But here you go


Brilliant!
It's tricky to say in which photo you look your best!


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## XTreme

Stravinsky said:


> a male belly dancer had tried to pick me up in a local tea room........and was travelling with a gay friend who insisted on wearing extremely bright colourful shirts and trousers as well as a big black sombrero.


Bit too much information there Jon.....though now I can understand why you consider a visit to the Leper Colony as a good day out.

I'm just trying to get a timeline on this event though.....was it before or after you participated in the Birmingham Grand Prix on a pogo stick?


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## thrax

We live to the east of Malaga and whilst still regarded by many as the CDS it isn't. But we wanted to live here because it remains typically Spanish but still has enough modern bits to be a good mix of both worlds. And the cost of living is cheaper than to the west of Malaga.


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## jojo

Stravinsky said:


> I've only been to Marbella once, and that was in the 70's
> 
> I read a book called the Drifters, and it made me go to Torremolinos. I enjoyed it, but Fuengirola ... which I can never spoll properly .... was just a small market town in those days.
> 
> The Hotel water supply didn't work properly, and one day the internal door handle fell off, trapping us in the hotel room. I went to a Spanish cultural night in a local white village where they served copious amounts of Sangria which made me quite horribly ill for several days. We drank in a bar called the Spotted Dog, and it never closed. The owner was Dutch with a waxed handlebar moustache and always wore a fez. I don't know why.
> 
> I was stopped by the Spanish Customs coming back from a two day trip to Northern Africa via Ceuta where, as a matter of interest, a male belly dancer had tried to pick me up in a local tea room. I had an Orange leather bag with nothing in it at all, and I think they suspected me of bringing in drugs. Furthermore, the German who they had already stopped had gesticulated in my general direction because I had quite long hair, was scruffy, and was travelling with a gay friend who insisted on wearing extremely bright colourful shirts and trousers as well as a big black sombrero.
> 
> Apart from that it was great. I'd go back. Those things couldn't happen to one man twice could they!
> 
> Sorry for woffling



That has made me cry with laughter - you couldnt make that lot up :rofl:

Jo xxx


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## thrax

I used to visit Fuengirola in the early 70s and there was nothing on either side of this sleepy fishing village for miles. We used to love it. Now it has been turned into a wall of concrete. What a shame. I remember on one holiday when I was about 18, I had met a French girl who became my girlfriend for a few years. We went to Torremolinos to a night club which I think was called Talk of the Town. We saw the first two shows which were ok, flamenco and singers etc and we were persuaded by other folk to stay for the late night show which, we were told, was more about pop music. We were riddled with embarrassment when we discovered that it was a strip show followed by live sex. I was 18 she was 17 and in those days these sort of events simply didn't exist, well not in our world. We couldn't get out of there fast enough.


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## robinjgraham

mrypg9 said:


> I'm afraid I have to withdraw from threads now where people say they have found the real Spain, or want to find it. Frankly most of them wouldn't know it if they found it (I'm not sure I would, because I dont know what it is) and for some it means eating out it a "real" Spanish restaurant


I'll respond to this, as it seems to have been a comment by me that has sparked Mary's teeth-gritted rant. 

In another thread I said that I and my partner had wanted to "experience" Spain, the implication being that we wanted to experience it as "fully" as possible, and also to immerse ourselves somewhere where getting by in English would be less of an option.

For these reasons we rejected a life on the Costa del Sol and I stand by the decision. It stands to reason that with such aspirations we would not want to settle in a place so populated with English or German speakers and with such a level of services geared up to that market. It isn't a point to be debated, in my mind, it's just the truth, whether you like it or not.

Absolutely nowhere in any of my posts is there the slightest suggestion that I have found the "real" Spain or even that I am looking for it. I do not discuss authenticity (for me authenticity is a quality to be found in a person, not a place or an object). That however does not stop Mary from lambasting me on these very points: in fact she has not responded to my comments - like many people with an axe to grind she has responded to a caricature of my comments which she herself has created in her own mind.

It cannot reasonably be read into what I have said that there are no nice people on the Costa, living nice lives, having a good time, but that is exactly what Mary has done, and some others here.

However, I am perfectly entitled to put as much distance between myself and the sprawl of shopping centres and urbaniciaziones as I can, if that is what I want to do, and it is an attack on precisely no one.

The defensiveness from more than one poster here is astounding. It seems that the "Spanish" status or otherwise of communities along the costa is much more of an issue for some than it ever has been for me.

I am quite happy to live and let live and accept that others have different tastes and requirements. If Mary has found a little corner of the Costa which she believes undermines my opinion of it then she could always invite me there and show me round, but since she doesn't appear to be very friendly, I doubt that it will happen.

There is a big difference between providing a valuable, open resource in a forum and presiding over a cliquey little club. This is something that moderators in particular should be aware of. 

If you chose to live on the Costa del Sol and are having a good life there then fair play to you and above all, well done for following your dream. I would like to think you would also wish me well in following mine.

But you cannot have a world, I am afraid, where others are forbidden from having opinions that offend your sensibilities. That includes opinions on your neighborhood, which is a controversial one.

I am happy to respect the different aspirations of other people, but am I being asked to pretend that there is no such thing as the environment?? No such thing as over development?

That the criminal, corrupt mayorship of Jesus Gil y Gil never happened? That huge swathes of construction have not been financed by drug money? That there hasn't been a meeting of minds between criminal Spanish elements and huge numbers of incoming immigrants and property investors who simply do not care about Spain or the Spanish? As of a very few years ago, fewer than ONE IN TEN foreign residents on the costa had even bothered to go down to the ayuntamiento and register; a simple administrative act that would help ensure their local council had sufficient funds to provide essential services. 

Is that authentic? Is it "Spanish"?

Yes, people make all sorts of assumptions and reach all sorts of lazy conclusions which they shouldn't, but isn't me that has done that here. Mary advises me that I will learn more about Spain with time, implying I suppose that one day I might understand it as richly and deeply as she does.

She shoots first and asks questions later, or not all. Otherwise she might have been aware that although I have only lived here for just over a year, it is not the first time I have lived here. That my involvement with the country is thirty three years old. That one of my parents was Spanish. That although the language faded over the years I was in part brought up here, in Madrid and in Galicia.


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## jojo

robinjgraham said:


> I'll respond to this, as it seems to have been a comment by me that has sparked Mary's teeth-gritted rant.
> 
> In another thread I said that I and my partner had wanted to "experience" Spain, the implication being that we wanted to experience it as "fully" as possible, and also to immerse ourselves somewhere where getting by in English would be less of an option.
> 
> For these reasons we rejected a life on the Costa del Sol and I stand by the decision. It stands to reason that with such aspirations we would not want to settle in a place so populated with English or German speakers and with such a level of services geared up to that market. It isn't a point to be debated, in my mind, it's just the truth, whether you like it or not.
> 
> Absolutely nowhere in any of my posts is there the slightest suggestion that I have found the "real" Spain or even that I am looking for it. I do not discuss authenticity (for me authenticity is a quality to be found in a person, not a place or an object). That however does not stop Mary from lambasting me on these very points: in fact she has not responded to my comments - like many people with an axe to grind she has responded to a caricature of my comments which she herself has created in her own mind.
> 
> It cannot reasonably be read into what I have said that there are no nice people on the Costa, living nice lives, having a good time, but that is exactly what Mary has done, and some others here.
> 
> However, I am perfectly entitled to put as much distance between myself and the sprawl of shopping centres and urbaniciaziones as I can, if that is what I want to do, and it is an attack on precisely no one.
> 
> The defensiveness from more than one poster here is astounding. It seems that the "Spanish" status or otherwise of communities along the costa is much more of an issue for some than it ever has been for me.
> 
> I am quite happy to live and let live and accept that others have different tastes and requirements. If Mary has found a little corner of the Costa which she believes undermines my opinion of it then she could always invite me there and show me round, but since she doesn't appear to be very friendly, I doubt that it will happen.
> 
> There is a big difference between providing a valuable, open resource in a forum and presiding over a cliquey little club. This is something that moderators in particular should be aware of.
> 
> If you chose to live on the Costa del Sol and are having a good life there then fair play to you and above all, well done for following your dream. I would like to think you would also wish me well in following mine.
> 
> But you cannot have a world, I am afraid, where others are forbidden from having opinions that offend your sensibilities. That includes opinions on your neighborhood, which is a controversial one.
> 
> I am happy to respect the different aspirations of other people, but am I being asked to pretend that there is no such thing as the environment?? No such thing as over development?
> 
> That the criminal, corrupt mayorship of Jesus Gil y Gil never happened? That huge swathes of construction have not been financed by drug money? That there hasn't been a meeting of minds between criminal Spanish elements and huge numbers of incoming immigrants and property investors who simply do not care about Spain or the Spanish? As of a very few years ago, fewer than ONE IN TEN foreign residents on the costa had even bothered to go down to the ayuntamiento and register; a simple administrative act that would help ensure their local council had sufficient funds to provide essential services.
> 
> Is that authentic? Is it "Spanish"?
> 
> Yes, people make all sorts of assumptions and reach all sorts of lazy conclusions which they shouldn't, but isn't me that has done that here. Mary advises me that I will learn more about Spain with time, implying I suppose that one day I might understand it as richly and deeply as she does.
> 
> She shoots first and asks questions later, or not all. Otherwise she might have been aware that although I have only lived here for just over a year, it is not the first time I have lived here. That my involvement with the country is thirty three years old. That one of my parents was Spanish. That although the language faded over the years I was in part brought up here, in Madrid and in Galicia.


My point in all of this wasnt ever meant to offend you or your views. I've just found that in my travels around spain, the costal towns arent much different to any others in spain, apart from them being tourist resorts - as most seaside resorts in most other european countries are.

The costa del sol has (had) an image, but step back a street or two from the main front line and you've got a Spanish town. Foreigners have left a mark, but so have the spanish who innovated it all, but its the same in my home town in the UK - We've just found the most amazing "greasy spoon cafe" here, they do the best full english breakfast for miles and - its owned and staffed by Turkish!!??

There are very few modern places nowadays that are not touched by the world, if only because the younger generation want fast cars, internet, fashion, music.... so they want and bring things from other countries and they travel to and from other countries - the whole of Europe is now a melting pot. As I said in my other post. The only "typically Spanish" towns I can think of are now tourist towns. In fact the only typically british towns I can think of are now museum peices!

Anyway, its nice to have a discussion about our different views and opinions, but in the end we all try to live where we feel the most comfortable

Jo xxx


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## robinjgraham

jojo said:


> My point in all of this wasnt ever meant to offend you or your views. I've just found that in my travels around spain, the costal towns arent much different to any others in spain, apart from them being tourist resorts - as most seaside resorts in most other european countries are.
> 
> The costa del sol has (had) an image, but step back a street or two from the main front line and you've got a Spanish town. Foreigners have left a mark, but so have the spanish who innovated it all, but its the same in my home town in the UK - We've just found the most amazing "greasy spoon cafe" here, they do the best full english breakfast for miles and - its owned and staffed by Turkish!!??
> 
> There are very few modern places nowadays that are not touched by the world, if only because the younger generation want fast cars, internet, fashion, music.... so they want and bring things from other countries and they travel to and from other countries - the whole of Europe is now a melting pot. As I said in my other post. The only "typically Spanish" towns I can think of are now tourist towns. In fact the only typically british towns I can think of are now museum peices!
> 
> Anyway, its nice to have a discussion about our different views and opinions, but in the end we all try to live where we feel the most comfortable
> 
> Jo xxx


And what would your view be on the failure of nine out of ten residents to register with their ayuntamiento? It would be a very simple gesture that would demonstrate some kind of regard and concern for the country they're living in, since ayuntamientos are allocated funds on the basis of population. Do you think it's changing? I hope so.

I'm not trying to attack anyone's choices but I have felt the need to defend my own since posting here, and no offense has been intended at any time


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## jojo

robinjgraham said:


> And what would your view be on the failure of nine out of ten residents to register with their ayuntamiento? It would be a very simple gesture that would demonstrate some kind of regard and concern for the country they're living in, since ayuntamientos are allocated funds on the basis of population. Do you think it's changing? I hope so.
> 
> I'm not trying to attack anyone's choices but I have felt the need to defend my own since posting here, and no offense has been intended at any time



I cant comment on the registering with the ayuntamiento. Maybe that is something that needs to be addressed by central government, maybe there needs to be incentives or penalties. But sadly its not just the Brits, I've heard that even some Spanish are reluctant to sign on the the padron if it means they can be traced. Spain has a lot of faults - its rules, regulations and paperwork are a minefield which can actually prevent people from trying. I had enough trouble getting a copy of my NIE and getting my social security number (I still have nightmares lol), altho I did get myself to the ayuntamiento. It seems the national past time of the Spanish is tax avoidance and working "on the black" which doesnt help create an atmosphere of conformity.......

Hey, you dont have to defend your choices on here. We're all different, a few come across as fierce but they're not really and a few on here would probably agree whole heartedly with you and your choices - so you carry on and voice your opinions 


Jo xxxx


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## robinjgraham

jojo said:


> I cant comment on the registering with the ayuntamiento. Maybe that is something that needs to be addressed by central government, maybe there needs to be incentives or penalties. But sadly its not just the Brits, I've heard that even some Spanish are reluctant to sign on the the padron if it means they can be traced. Spain has a lot of faults - its rules, regulations and paperwork are a minefield which can actually prevent people from trying. I had enough trouble getting a copy of my NIE and getting my social security number (I still have nightmares lol), altho I did get myself to the ayuntamiento. It seems the national past time of the Spanish is tax avoidance and working "on the black" which doesnt help create an atmosphere of conformity.......
> 
> Hey, you dont have to defend your choices on here. We're all different, a few come across as fierce but they're not really and a few on here would probably agree whole heartedly with you and your choices - so you carry on and voice your opinions
> 
> 
> Jo xxxx


Good 

One last shot then - it needn't be addressed by cantral govt. No penalties or incentives are required. It's a civic duty, down to the individual, and whether there are some Spanish people working the system or not (aren't there people doing that in every country) doesn't have any bearing on the apparent disregard that so many expats here seem to have for the country they live in.

That's my tuppence


----------



## Stravinsky

robinjgraham said:


> And what would your view be on the failure of nine out of ten residents to register with their ayuntamiento? It would be a very simple gesture that would demonstrate some kind of regard and concern for the country they're living in, since ayuntamientos are allocated funds on the basis of population. Do you think it's changing? I hope so.
> 
> I'm not trying to attack anyone's choices but I have felt the need to defend my own since posting here, and no offense has been intended at any time


I would first ask how they are able to provide those figures, because if you havent registered then they may not know you exist as a resident, being that many people just have holiday homes.

Your previous post by the way quoted my comment as if it was myrpg9.
I said that because, having been here and on the forums, I have become aware that what many call "real spain" isnt. I wasnt aiming that at you specifically, or even at all. I was commenting on my experience of dealing with the expat community on forums for 6 years


----------



## mrypg9

robinjgraham said:


> I'll respond to this, as it seems to have been a comment by me that has sparked Mary's teeth-gritted rant.
> 
> In another thread I said that I and my partner had wanted to "experience" Spain, the implication being that we wanted to experience it as "fully" as possible, and also to immerse ourselves somewhere where getting by in English would be less of an option.
> 
> For these reasons we rejected a life on the Costa del Sol and I stand by the decision. It stands to reason that with such aspirations we would not want to settle in a place so populated with English or German speakers and with such a level of services geared up to that market. It isn't a point to be debated, in my mind, it's just the truth, whether you like it or not.
> 
> Absolutely nowhere in any of my posts is there the slightest suggestion that I have found the "real" Spain or even that I am looking for it. I do not discuss authenticity (for me authenticity is a quality to be found in a person, not a place or an object). That however does not stop Mary from lambasting me on these very points: in fact she has not responded to my comments - like many people with an axe to grind she has responded to a caricature of my comments which she herself has created in her own mind.
> 
> It cannot reasonably be read into what I have said that there are no nice people on the Costa, living nice lives, having a good time, but that is exactly what Mary has done, and some others here.
> 
> However, I am perfectly entitled to put as much distance between myself and the sprawl of shopping centres and urbaniciaziones as I can, if that is what I want to do, and it is an attack on precisely no one.
> 
> The defensiveness from more than one poster here is astounding. It seems that the "Spanish" status or otherwise of communities along the costa is much more of an issue for some than it ever has been for me.
> 
> I am quite happy to live and let live and accept that others have different tastes and requirements. If Mary has found a little corner of the Costa which she believes undermines my opinion of it then she could always invite me there and show me round, but since she doesn't appear to be very friendly, I doubt that it will happen.
> 
> There is a big difference between providing a valuable, open resource in a forum and presiding over a cliquey little club. This is something that moderators in particular should be aware of.
> 
> If you chose to live on the Costa del Sol and are having a good life there then fair play to you and above all, well done for following your dream. I would like to think you would also wish me well in following mine.
> 
> But you cannot have a world, I am afraid, where others are forbidden from having opinions that offend your sensibilities. That includes opinions on your neighborhood, which is a controversial one.
> 
> I am happy to respect the different aspirations of other people, but am I being asked to pretend that there is no such thing as the environment?? No such thing as over development?
> 
> That the criminal, corrupt mayorship of Jesus Gil y Gil never happened? That huge swathes of construction have not been financed by drug money? That there hasn't been a meeting of minds between criminal Spanish elements and huge numbers of incoming immigrants and property investors who simply do not care about Spain or the Spanish? As of a very few years ago, fewer than ONE IN TEN foreign residents on the costa had even bothered to go down to the ayuntamiento and register; a simple administrative act that would help ensure their local council had sufficient funds to provide essential services.
> 
> Is that authentic? Is it "Spanish"?
> 
> Yes, people make all sorts of assumptions and reach all sorts of lazy conclusions which they shouldn't, but isn't me that has done that here. Mary advises me that I will learn more about Spain with time, implying I suppose that one day I might understand it as richly and deeply as she does.
> 
> She shoots first and asks questions later, or not all. Otherwise she might have been aware that although I have only lived here for just over a year, it is not the first time I have lived here. That my involvement with the country is thirty three years old. That one of my parents was Spanish. That although the language faded over the years I was in part brought up here, in Madrid and in Galicia.


Perhaps if you had worded your original post more carefully there would have been no need for what you term a 'rant'...?
My experience of Spain also goes back many decades, in fact to the 1960s. I visited the Costa Blanca when Torrevieja was a village. We used to spend the whole summer in a finca in the backwoods of Ibiza. I don't claim to understand Spain 'richly and deeply' - where did you get that notion from? - but I have visited most main cities and regions of Spain.
You must be aware that corruption is not confined to the CdS. Neither is environmental despoilation. Shopping malls are sadly everrywhere, in country towns as well as coastal ones.
Neither do I need to 'defend' my little corner. (In which incidentally I have enertained posters from this forum..I'm fussy about who I invite though..).
And yes, of course people should register on the padron wherever they live. We did everything necessary within a week of arriving here. We also don't deal in the black economy, btw.
As I am not psychic I could not be aware of your background although tbh I don't think that in itself allows for any particular insight or gives weight to any opinion.
My main point is that when you stated you wanted to live in 'Spain' and not the Costa you were, presumably unintentionally, erasing a large part of Spain from the map. 
Now I think we've said our pieces on this.


----------



## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> I expect most people who enjoy life on the CDS would die of boredom up here where the social highlight of a Saturday night is a game of dominoes on the Alameda, but it suits me.



Your Saturday nights are riotous compared to mine!! I think most long time CdS residents are like us...Most of my time is spent reading.
But back to topic: we were able to give a job to a local person which was good but what upset me a bit was that the person who got the job was so massively over-qualified for such a comparatively menial post. Most of the applicants were the same....glad to have the chance of any job.
It saddens me....


----------



## robinjgraham

mrypg9 said:


> Perhaps if you had worded your original post more carefully there would have been no need for what you term a 'rant'...?
> My experience of Spain also goes back many decades, in fact to the 1960s. I visited the Costa Blanca when Torrevieja was a village. We used to spend the whole summer in a finca in the backwoods of Ibiza. I don't claim to understand Spain 'richly and deeply' - where did you get that notion from? - but I have visited most main cities and regions of Spain.
> You must be aware that corruption is not confined to the CdS. Neither is environmental despoilation. Shopping malls are sadly everrywhere, in country towns as well as coastal ones.
> Neither do I need to 'defend' my little corner. (In which incidentally I have enertained posters from this forum..I'm fussy about who I invite though..).
> And yes, of course people should register on the padron wherever they live. We did everything necessary within a week of arriving here. We also don't deal in the black economy, btw.
> As I am not psychic I could not be aware of your background although tbh I don't think that in itself allows for any particular insight or gives weight to any opinion.
> My main point is that when you stated you wanted to live in 'Spain' and not the Costa you were, presumably unintentionally, erasing a large part of Spain from the map.
> Now I think we've said our pieces on this.


Nope, I haven't finished, because yet again you are failing to respond to what I actually wrote - I never said I wanted to live in Spain and not the Costa. I said that we wanted to EXPERIENCE Spain, the implication being that we would want to experience it as fully as possible, including the language, and would therefore not want to settle somewhere that has become so geared up towards tourists and expats.

_Whether am right or wrong about this_ it is a very different statement to "the Costa is not Spain".

Reading, as well as writing, is something which should be done carefully, Mary. As long as you continue to caricature or misrepresent my views, I will reply.

If you don't want that, let it go.


----------



## Stravinsky

robinjgraham said:


> Nope, I haven't finished, because yet again you are failing to respond to what I actually wrote - I never said I wanted to live in Spain and not the Costa. I said that we wanted to EXPERIENCE Spain, the implication being that we would want to experience it as fully as possible, including the language, and would therefore not want to settle somewhere that has become so geared up towards tourists and expats.
> 
> _Whether am right or wrong about this_ it is a very different statement to "the Costa is not Spain".
> 
> Reading, as well as writing, is something which should be done carefully, Mary. As long as you continue to caricature or misrepresent my views, I will reply.
> 
> If you don't want that, let it go.


You misquoted Mary earlier as I pointed out in a thread (post 17), but you aint responded to that, but never mind. 

Please, that's enough now .... accept other people have opinions on things otherwise we will just have one ongoing argument


----------



## Pesky Wesky

thrax said:


> I used to visit Fuengirola in the early 70s and there was nothing on either side of this sleepy fishing village for miles. We used to love it. Now it has been turned into a wall of concrete. What a shame. I remember on one holiday when I was about 18, I had met a French girl who became my girlfriend for a few years. We went to Torremolinos to a night club which I think was called Talk of the Town. We saw the first two shows which were ok, flamenco and singers etc and we were persuaded by other folk to stay for the late night show which, we were told, was more about pop music. We were riddled with embarrassment when we discovered that it was a strip show followed by live sex. I was 18 she was 17 and in those days these sort of events simply didn't exist, well not in our world. We couldn't get out of there fast enough.


Spain in the '70's??
Where women had to get their husband's permission before getting a bank loan or buying something on HP?
Where divorce was not possible with out the intervention of the Pope?
Live sex show??? In a sleepy fishing village?
The mind boggles!


----------



## robinjgraham

Stravinsky said:


> You misquoted Mary earlier as I pointed out in a thread (post 17), but you aint responded to that, but never mind.
> 
> Please, that's enough now .... accept other people have opinions on things otherwise we will just have one ongoing argument


That was a simple error. I did no rewriting. When I clicked on reply I expected both Mary's post AND your response to show up in my post - I have no idea why it didn't.

It isn't the same as misrepresenting someone's views and it isn't me you should be admonishing to respect the views of other.

This is either a public forum or it isn't. I have been respectful at all times. Now, I'm happy to leave it.


----------



## Stravinsky

robinjgraham said:


> That was a simple error. I did no rewriting. When I clicked on reply I expected both Mary's post AND your response to show up in my post - I have no idea why it didn't.
> 
> It isn't the same as misrepresenting someone's views and it isn't me you should be admonishing to respect the views of other.
> 
> This is either a public forum or it isn't. I have been respectful at all times. Now, I'm happy to leave it.


OK, you clearly know far more than I do 
No one is asking you to leave it. You are more than welcome to stay, and you did have your say on this matter .... but what is the point of perpetuating it


----------



## robinjgraham

Stravinsky said:


> OK, you clearly know far more than I do
> No one is asking you to leave it. You are more than welcome to stay, and you did have your say on this matter .... but what is the point of perpetuating it


I don't see how a sarcastic response from a moderator is appropriate here. And I didn't mean I was leaving the forum - I meant I was happy to leave the discussion there.


----------



## XTreme

robinjgraham said:


> I said that we wanted to EXPERIENCE Spain,


You need to come and take a look here.....we've got it all!

Gitanos defecating in the middle of the street, psychopathic donkeys, "end of the world" preppers from Northern Europe living in holes in the ground they've just dug, Brits getting denounced by Gitanos for filth, more suicides than Jonestown, and on Thursday there was even a mass brawl involving a Brit in the outdoor market fighting with Chinese.
Apparently it was a bit like a scene from "Big Trouble in Little China".....but without Kurt Russell obviously.

It may not be everybody's cup of tea, but we like it.


----------



## xabiaxica

robinjgraham said:


> Nope, I haven't finished, because yet again you are failing to respond to what I actually wrote - I never said I wanted to live in Spain and not the Costa. I said that we wanted to EXPERIENCE Spain, the implication being that we would want to experience it as fully as possible, including the language, and would therefore not want to settle somewhere that has become so geared up towards tourists and expats.
> 
> _Whether am right or wrong about this_ it is a very different statement to "the Costa is not Spain".
> 
> Reading, as well as writing, is something which should be done carefully, Mary. As long as you continue to caricature or misrepresent my views, I will reply.
> 
> If you don't want that, let it go.


where I live - not the CDS - you will experience Spain, even though about half the residents aren't Spanish 

you will experience Spain in a tiny village where you are the only English speaker too


both are SPAIN - just different aspects of it


----------



## Stravinsky

robinjgraham said:


> I don't see how a sarcastic response from a moderator is appropriate here. And I didn't mean I was leaving the forum - I meant I was happy to leave the discussion there.


Oh dear .... 

Not sarcasm ... your interpretation. What's appropriate is decided by the mods

Now .... can we leave it alone and get back on topic please

Many thanks for your cooperation


----------



## robinjgraham

xabiachica said:


> where I live - not the CDS - you will experience Spain, even though about half the residents aren't Spanish
> 
> you will experience Spain in a tiny village where you are the only English speaker too
> 
> 
> both are SPAIN - just different aspects of it


Yes, I can see that. 

My point was also about our wish to throw ourselves in at the deep end re; the language. I struggling to see how expressing my preferences should automatically be taken as a criticism of others.

As I said, _whether I am right or wrong in my opinions_ does not change the fact that I have been attacked for something I didn't say.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

robinjgraham said:


> Yes, I can see that.
> 
> My point was also about our wish to throw ourselves in at the deep end re; the language. I struggling to see how expressing my preferences should automatically be taken as a criticism of others.
> 
> As I said, _whether I am right or wrong in my opinions_ does not change the fact that I have been attacked for something I didn't say.


You know, from what you said before about being brought up partly in Spain and having Spanish relatives I'm sure you'd be able to tell us a lot about Spain and Spanish life. I'd like to know what you think about life in Madrid seeing as I lived there for about 6 years myself and live about 30km from there now. I'm sure many people have a lot of preconceived ideas about Madrid that are not all true...


----------



## robinjgraham

Pesky Wesky said:


> You know, from what you said before about being brought up partly in Spain and having Spanish relatives I'm sure you'd be able to tell us a lot about Spain and Spanish life. I'd like to know what you think about life in Madrid seeing as I lived there for about 6 years myself and live about 30km from there now. I'm sure many people have a lot of preconceived ideas about Madrid that are not all true...


I wouldn't have anything to offer I'm afraid. I was a child. It was big and noisy and exciting and I loved it. That's about it


----------



## jimenato

I have copied this snippet by robinjgraham which is I think the bit which has caused the problem from the other thread to see if I can discover what the problem actually is. I've snipped it but not taken it out of context. 



> we chose not to live on the Costa because we were eager to experience Spain and learn the language


I think the problem is that although the poster didn't mean it in to be read that way, he has actually implied that those who DO choose to live on the Costa aren't "eager to experience Spain and learn the language". 

Understandably those who to live there might get a bit humpy about that.

No-one's fault - just a bit of a misunderstanding.


----------



## jimenato

I would like to live in France - but not in Paris. I don't consider Paris 'Real France'.:bolt:


----------



## mrypg9

jimenato said:


> I have copied this snippet by robinjgraham which is I think the bit which has caused the problem from the other thread to see if I can discover what the problem actually is. I've snipped it but not taken it out of context.
> 
> 
> 
> I think the problem is that although the poster didn't mean it in to be read that way, he has actually implied that those who DO choose to live on the Costa aren't "eager to experience Spain and learn the language".
> 
> Understandably those who to live there might get a bit humpy about that.
> 
> No-one's fault - just a bit of a misunderstanding.



Thankyou, Simon. You have grasped exactly why some of us were a bit miffed.


----------



## jimenato

Alcalaina said:


> I expect most people who enjoy life on the CDS would die of boredom up here where the social highlight of a Saturday night is a game of dominoes on the Alameda, but it suits me.


Certainly some of those who enjoy life in the part of the CDS that I know would want more out of life on a Saturday night - they would be the many hundreds of young Spaniards who descend on the port for merrymaking until the early hours. 

The expat population is mostly pensioners so they wouldn't be interested in that.


----------



## mrypg9

jimenato said:


> Certainly some of those who enjoy life in the part of the CDS that I know would want more out of life on a Saturday night - they would be the many hundreds of young Spaniards who descend on the port for merrymaking until the early hours.
> 
> *The expat population is mostly pensioners so they wouldn't be interested in that.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Well, I can still get it on with the youngsters...for five minutes or so.
> Then back to my Zimmer frame...


----------



## robinjgraham

jimenato said:


> I have copied this snippet by robinjgraham which is I think the bit which has caused the problem from the other thread to see if I can discover what the problem actually is. I've snipped it but not taken it out of context.
> 
> 
> 
> I think the problem is that although the poster didn't mean it in to be read that way, he has actually implied that those who DO choose to live on the Costa aren't "eager to experience Spain and learn the language".
> 
> Understandably those who to live there might get a bit humpy about that.
> 
> No-one's fault - just a bit of a misunderstanding.


I think it's fair enough to point out that there are some very insular communities of expats on the Costa that don't seem all that interested in integration or contribution. It's a fact. Of course it doesn't apply to all, but then those to whom it doesn't apply had no need to respond to my point.

How do you feel about the fact that the overwhelming majority of foreign residents on the CDS (whatever the precise figure, but according to G tremelett, the Guardian's man in Spain it's 9 out of ten) have not even bothered to register?


----------



## Stravinsky

robinjgraham said:


> I think it's fair enough to point out that there are some very insular communities of expats on the Costa that don't seem all that interested in integration or contribution. It's a fact. Of course it doesn't apply to all, but then those to whom it doesn't apply had no need to respond to my point.
> 
> How do you feel about the fact that the overwhelming majority of foreign residents on the CDS (whatever the precise figure, but according to G tremelett, the Guardian's man in Spain it's 9 out of ten) have not even bothered to register?


So the figures are based on Giles Tremlett, the author?
I'd ask the same question I guess I asked before ... where do the figures come from, because how can anyone actually know the true figure?

I agree, there are some very insular communities. I cant speak for the CDS, but around here there are a couple for sure. The majority of Brits I know of though are more interested in avoiding Brit communities.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

robinjgraham said:


> I think it's fair enough to point out that there are some very insular communities of expats on the Costa that don't seem all that interested in integration or contribution. It's a fact. Of course it doesn't apply to all, but then those to whom it doesn't apply had no need to respond to my point.
> 
> How do you feel about the fact that the overwhelming majority of foreign residents on the CDS (whatever the precise figure, but according to G tremelett, the Guardian's man in Spain it's 9 out of ten) have not even bothered to register?


The information about signing on the padron, and the reasons for doing so has *often* been given on the forum.
I think the people who don't (in no particular order)


Don't know about
Choose not to do it because they aren't capable of seeing the significance
Don't do it because they are too frightened to go into a situation where they might have to speak Spanish
Are too lazy to do it
Are running away from something and don't want to be registered anywhere.
None of which are excuses, obviously!


----------



## jimenato

robinjgraham said:


> I think it's fair enough to point out that there are some very insular communities of expats on the Costa that don't seem all that interested in integration or contribution. It's a fact.


Right. I have just give a reasoned and reasonable explanation for what I saw as a misunderstanding between forum posters. You have now chosen to refute that and confirm what some on here were thinking - that you think that people who live on the Costa are somehow inferior.



robinjgraham said:


> Of course it doesn't apply to all, but then those to whom it doesn't apply had no need to respond to my point.


It is obviously ONLY those to whom your point doesn't apply who are going to respond.



robinjgraham said:


> How do you feel about the fact that the overwhelming majority of foreign residents on the CDS (whatever the precise figure, but according to G tremelett, the Guardian's man in Spain it's 9 out of ten) have not even bothered to register?


I doubt the figure. Almost impossible to evaluate.


----------



## Solwriter

robinjgraham said:


> I think it's fair enough to point out that there are some very insular communities of expats on the Costa that don't seem all that interested in integration or contribution. It's a fact. Of course it doesn't apply to all, but then those to whom it doesn't apply had no need to respond to my point.
> 
> How do you feel about the fact that the overwhelming majority of foreign residents on the CDS (whatever the precise figure, but according to G tremelett, the Guardian's man in Spain it's 9 out of ten) have not even bothered to register?


I haven't read the article, but as you say this refers to _foreign_ residents (residents?), I wonder just how many of these foreigners are Brits or other Europeans.
I also wonder _when_ Giles Tremlett found those figures.

As regards Brits on the CDS who failed to register, from my experience of knowing builders, electricians, plasterers, bar workers, etc, who lived on the CDS (we met quite a few while travelling around Spain), many of them have now returned to the UK because they can no longer make enough money from the black economy. So figures (for Brits) which may have been correct a few years ago, may not be correct now.

I also agree that there were some very insular communities on the CDS (as there were on other costas). I remember going in a few bars on the CDS where the staff spoke _only_ in English and speaking to many older members of Brit communities who couldn't speak a word of Spanish.
But I have no idea whether that applies now.


----------



## robinjgraham

Stravinsky said:


> So the figures are based on Giles Tremlett, the author?
> I'd ask the same question I guess I asked before ... where do the figures come from, because how can anyone actually know the true figure?
> 
> I agree, there are some very insular communities. I cant speak for the CDS, but around here there are a couple for sure. The majority of Brits I know of though are more interested in avoiding Brit communities.


Yup, I included his name in reply to your question. I don't know his source but he is a good journalist and I think it's unlikely he's sensationalising it.

You're also quite right that no one can know the true figures but the equation, at least, is simple. You can count how many people have registered and you then need to compare that number to the number of people who are _estimated_ to be resident on the Costa.

It is only an estimate but these estimates are more often than not conservative, so if Mr Tremlett is mistaken it's just as likely that the situation is actually worse than he describes. At any rate, we can talk about a vast majority who are present but have not bothered to register, and we know that this has real and very harmful consequences for the community.

I'm not looking down my nose - it seems evident to me that expats to Spain can behave really very badly when it come to feeling a responsibility towards their host country and that this applies, not to all but to many, in _whatever_ part of the country. I'm not suggesting some kind of _qualitative_ difference with the CDS, as if the peope there are somehow worse.

But the sheer _scale_ of development there means that there is a vast swathe from Malaga to Sotogrande where huge numbers of people have not made the choice to involve themselves in Spanish life. We just wanted to avoid that.


----------



## mrypg9

robinjgraham said:


> But the sheer _scale_ of development there means that there is a vast swathe from Malaga to Sotogrande where huge numbers of people have not made the choice to involve themselves in Spanish life. We just wanted to avoid that.



A 'vast swathe'?? How can you or anyone _*know*_ that
Why should there be a connection between the scale of development and registration on the padron, especially when much of this 'vast swathe of development' is unoccupied for most of the year?
We lived briefly in one of those 'communities' which was almost empty. Out of the hundred or so apartments about twenty were occupied full time. Very many are like that, I suspect - either empty awaiting sale or used only in the summer months.
And just because they haven't signed on the padron...which as I have said is very wrong...why should that mean that they are not involved in Spanish life? Do all Spanish people sign on the padron? Might there not be more British immigrants in major cities such as Barcelona and Madrid not on the padron?

I think you are making assumptions which are impossible to verify.


----------



## robinjgraham

mrypg9 said:


> How can you or anyone _*know*_ that


One indication would be the empadronimiento estimates.


----------



## mrypg9

robinjgraham said:


> One indication would be the empadronimiento estimates.


But you admit they are 'estimates', something other posters have pointed out. So we don't in fact 'know'. 
And your replies to the other points I made?


----------



## Stravinsky

Well, I'm not necessarily doubting a journalist giving accurate figures, but to be honest as others have said it is impossible to quantify and therefore it's difficult to believe them. Yes, I know Giles Tremlett by the way, I've read his book Ghosts of Spain. I believe you said the figures were 2 years old ..... I doubt the figure is that high because almost everything you do these days in regard to officialdom necessitates an up to date (3 months) padron certificate, and that includes (here) registering a car, tax, wills, the end is listless 

I can only talk about here in CB, and almost all of the expats and owners in my particular area are signed on. I know this because we have a residents group. 

I'm sure there are those here that choose to remain anonymous, it's just that my opinion is that it isn't huge swathes of people.

One other point. I don't actually see why people who move to Spain are required to involve themselves in Spanish life. They will never be fully integrated anyway, because however many Spanish friends they make, they will always be foreigners at the end of the day.

Look to the UK. Its the same there. Some immigrants get involved in British life, and others live in areas where others of their nationality live. I guess it's human nature, and only a small percentage actually choose to take it one step further


----------



## mrypg9

Now I'm thinking about the subject...I don't think there are a tenth as many Brits on the CdS as there were say ten years ago. The same for other immigrants.
I often go around the Estepona area for weeks without encountering Northern Europeans apart from a few friends and those few who are obviously tourists. 
Maybe it's different further north...towards Benidorm, Alicante?
But it's a fact that those 'vast swathes of development' do not contain residents of any nationality who should be on the padron.
Incidentally, the fellow-Brits I mingle with occasionally here tend to do as Strav says...mix with the Spanish community for shopping, services and socialising. We became reasonably proficient in Spanish because we had to..me defiendo..
And of course Strav is also right to point out that you will never be fully integrated. You will always be the guiri.
As I've said before, I have no problem with how people choose to live in Spain as long as they abide by the rules, whoever they are.
My problem is with those who think there is a *right* way to live here (someone coined the phrase 'plastic Spaniards' some time ago..it may have been Stravinsky), who imagine they are somehow more 'refined' than those who choose to live in Brit communities or who make generalisations about areas and the people who live in them.


----------



## jimenato

Stravinsky said:


> I doubt the figure is that high because almost everything you do these days in regard to officialdom necessitates an up to date (3 months) padron certificate, and that includes (here) registering a car, tax, wills, the end is listless


Yes - I was wondering how on earth you could have any sort of life without an empadronamiento - I seem to have to get a new one quite frequently. These people must really be keeping their heads down. Perhaps they are all transient - little more than long-term tourists - maybe working on the black? You'd probably get away with it for a bit. There used to be a lot of them - not so many now I think.


----------



## robinjgraham

I'm going to bow out at this point. All I have done, and if I wasn't clear at first I have certainly explained myself since, is express a preference.

I haven't been personally insulting towards anyone here and have been careful to avoid generalisations, but I seem to have rum into a wellspring of resentment that pre-dates me. If you choose to live on the CDS you should stand over that choice without resorting to denial.

It is what it is. I consider it largely over developed and unattractive, for both physical and cultural reasons. Others might term those very same qualities as being urban and lively and cosmopolitan and shared by one's compatriots. It's all down to personal choice.

It seems to me my point of view wouldn't be attacked if the attackers were a little more secure in their own. 

Anyway, I imagine that all of us are tired of this exchange and I have in fact been asked to stop by moderators. If anyone feels that I am evading their points or questions they can pm me and I will be happy to have a private conversation, but I'm not so happy to continue fielding demands here for me to justify my point of view. It's just a point of view and I have at no point represented it as the right one or the best one.


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## mrypg9

jimenato said:


> Yes - I was wondering how on earth you could have any sort of life without an empadronamiento - I seem to have to get a new one quite frequently. These people must really be keeping their heads down. Perhaps they are all transient - little more than long-term tourists - maybe working on the black? You'd probably get away with it for a bit. There used to be a lot of them - not so many now I think.


Like I said...I'm beginning to think that in fact there aren't that many *permanent* Northern European residents on the CdS. Certainly not as many as when I was here ten years ago.
And I haven't noticed as many Moroccans around as there were four years ago.
Quite a few South Americans, though. Nearly all the gardeners and cleaners I see going about their work around here are Brazilians, Venezuelans or Chileans.
Do they detract from the 'Spanishness' of the area, I wonder


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## Stravinsky

robinjgraham said:


> I'm going to bow out at this point. All I have done, and if I wasn't clear at first I have certainly explained myself since, is express a preference.
> 
> I haven't been personally insulting towards anyone here and have been careful to avoid generalisations, but I seem to have rum into a wellspring of resentment that pre-dates me. If you choose to live on the CDS you should stand over that choice without resorting to denial.
> 
> It is what it is. I consider it largely over developed and unattractive, for both physical and cultural reasons. Others might term those very same qualities as being urban and lively and cosmopolitan and shared by one's compatriots. It's all down to personal choice.
> 
> It seems to me my point of view wouldn't be attacked if the attackers were a little more secure in their own.
> 
> Anyway, I imagine that all of us are tired of this exchange and I have in fact been asked to stop by moderators. If anyone feels that I am evading their points or questions they can pm me and I will be happy to have a private conversation, but I*'m not so happy to continue fielding demands here for me to justify my point of view. It's just a point of view *and I have at no point represented it as the right one or the best one.



But I thought that was what discussion was all about 

BTW, I dont live in the CDS ..... I was just expressing _my _point of view based on what I know here. I'm quite secure thank you . I retired here at 52 out of choice, and I'm quite happy with my area


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## mrypg9

Stravinsky said:


> But I thought that was what discussion was all about
> 
> BTW, I dont live in the CDS ..... I was just expressing _my _point of view based on what I know here. I'm quite secure thank you . I retired here at 52 out of choice, and I'm quite happy with my area


Ditto.
The point is that as I think Jo or Xabia said,if you look a mile beyond the beach in some parts, even in the more developed areas,you will find a different CdS. The poster doesn't seem to understand this or perhaps doesn't want to.
I wouldn't want to live in an urban area with night clubs, shopping malls etc...although I do like to be near shopping centres, not that I use them much. So we chose a quiet village, or rather my son and dil did, fifteen years ago when they bought a house here. Luckily the village hasn't changed much, although like everywhere in Spain there are new developments at the edge of the village, mainly lived in by Spanish people who work in Marbella, even Malaga or Estepona but who either can't afford to live there or prefer a quieter area..and a few streets of 'posh' houses, where we currently live beyond our means for the sake of our huge garden for our huge dog. If it changed that much we'd think of moving to Estepona as we might as well be in a real town.
Anyone who thinks the CdS is a uniformly over-developed area simply doesn't know it well
and like my snobby UK friends is basing opinion on prejudice.
Of course there are 'foreign' communities on the CdS in the larger towns. None in my village. No nightclubs either, although we once had a brothel. It didn't last long.
There are probably British, Irish, German communities in Bracelona, Madrid, Bilbao...


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## Solwriter

mrypg9 said:


> I wouldn't want to live in an urban area with night clubs, shopping malls etc...


Sometimes, when I want to go into the city on my own and I'm waiting in the cold for the 7am bus to Granada (there are only 2 buses a day), and when I either have to catch the 8.30pm bus home or rely on my husband to pick me up, I would absolutely _love_ to live in a busy urban area. I'm a city girl at heart. And like to be as independent as possible.
But that's just me. Everyone's different.

*robinjgraham*
It's a shame you feel obliged to discontinue your part of the discussion.
I may not agree with all of your points, and I did question one of the facts you offered. But I do that with everyone. It's my nature and nothing personal to you or your argument!
But I was actually interested in your view of the CDS and why you chose not to live there. Although those on this forum who live on the CDS say these views are incorrect, there are plenty I'm sure who feel the same way as you do.
Makes for an interesting debate.


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## Alcalaina

jimenato said:


> Yes - I was wondering how on earth you could have any sort of life without an empadronamiento - I seem to have to get a new one quite frequently. These people must really be keeping their heads down. Perhaps they are all transient - little more than long-term tourists - maybe working on the black? You'd probably get away with it for a bit. There used to be a lot of them - not so many now I think.


Well, several of the Brits living in my town when we moved here hadn't bothered - including one couple who had actually started a business! We rounded them all up and marched them off to the Ayuntamiento. I think the town gets €100 p.a. per name.

On the other hand very few people remember to come off it when they leave, so I guess it all evens out.


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## Pesky Wesky

Alcalaina said:


> Well, several of the Brits living in my town when we moved here hadn't bothered - including one couple who had actually started a business! We rounded them all up and marched them off to the Ayuntamiento. I think the town gets €100 p.a. per name.
> 
> On the other hand very few people remember to come off it when they leave, so I guess it all evens out.


I haven't used an empadronamiento certificate for ages, and when I have in the last few years it's been for my daughter to do such and such activity in the town hall, or something for school. But I am on there!


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## Alcalaina

Incidentally the Spanish have their CDS sterootypes too. There is a hilarious programme on La Sexta called _Mujeres Ricas_ (rich women) most of whom live in Marbella. Apparently they are real people ... the bits that haven't gone under the surgeon's knife anyway. Tomas falsas - laSextaOn | laSexta - laSextaOn | laSexta


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## XTreme

Stravinsky said:


> They will never be fully integrated anyway, because however many Spanish friends they make, they will always be foreigners at the end of the day.


Come down this Summer Jon......and I'll prove you wrong on that!


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## mrypg9

When we lived in Roztoky, a village that had become a dormitory suburb of Prague, the official number of residents was 4000. But an enterprising developer bought up what had been fields at the village edge and built 'luxury' houses. Some were quite pleasant to view, others -mainly Russian-owned - hideous and vulgar (apologies to Russians reading this, I'm not implying Russians are per se vulgar) and the resident population must have increased by 25% or more.
Yet few if any signed the register to say they were permanent residents. As so many Czechs have 'second homes', often not more than a shed in the country, they said they lived at that address. Foreigners used an address abroad.
Result; the village infrastructure suffered grievously as a result of the increased demand. My friend's husband who was the Mayor was incandescent with rage as there was nothing he could do about the situation.
I don't know if people can evade the rules in Spain in that way. But I think it is truly immoral, cheating your locality of needed revenue to provide services you enjoy. It has the same status as working on the black. Cheating, immoral...wrong.


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## country boy

mrypg9 said:


> I don't know if people can evade the rules in Spain in that way. But I think it is truly immoral, cheating your locality of needed revenue to provide services you enjoy. It has the same status as working on the black. Cheating, immoral...wrong.


........and I'm not flirting!!!! I AGREE


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## country boy

country boy said:


> ........and i'm not flirting!!!! I agree


xxxxx


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## mrypg9

country boy said:


> xxxxx


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## jimenato

mrypg9 said:


>


Can you two get a room?


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## Solwriter

mrypg9 said:


> I don't know if people can evade the rules in Spain in that way. But I think it is truly immoral, cheating your locality of needed revenue to provide services you enjoy. It has the same status as working on the black. Cheating, immoral...wrong.


I agree with you on this, especially about signing on the padron, as this is usually possible to do as soon have you have the deeds of your house, or your rental details.
However, completely avoiding the black economy is impossible.
If we want to use the services of a Spanish builder, plumber, electrician or mechanic, we are expected to pay cash. Same with the local dentist. None of these take debit cards, credit cards or cheques. Only cash.
Most of the time there is no invoice for work and certainly no receipt given on payment.
We have no idea whether all of that cash is entered on tax forms, and would guess that it isn't.
It is only in the case of official documents (to prove essential electrical work, for example) that we see any paperwork.
Now, if we insisted on obtaining receipts and invoices from all the people whose services we use, we would still be waiting for the work to be done.


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## mrypg9

Solwriter said:


> I agree with you on this, especially about signing on the padron, as this is usually possible to do as soon have you have the deeds of your house, or your rental details.
> However, completely avoiding the black economy is impossible.
> If we want to use the services of a Spanish builder, plumber, electrician or mechanic, we are expected to pay cash. Same with the local dentist. None of these take debit cards, credit cards or cheques. Only cash.
> Most of the time there is no invoice for work and certainly no receipt given on payment.
> We have no idea whether all of that cash is entered on tax forms, and would guess that it isn't.
> It is only in the case of official documents (to prove essential electrical work, for example) that we see any paperwork.
> Now, if we insisted on obtaining receipts and invoices from all the people whose services we use, we would still be waiting for the work to be done.


We used to use a local garage where we always had proper invoices. Then last year we stopped being given them.
So we found another garage not that far away and said we wanted to pay via debit card and receive a proper invoice. They were happy to comply as we had to spend almost 600 euros...(new fuel injector).
OH is very strict about this kind of thing, having owned businesses where a decent wage was paid but where there was stiff and unfair competition from off-the-cards labour.
That has been the only time we've been refused an invoice.


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## Stravinsky

XTreme said:


> Come down this Summer Jon......and I'll prove you wrong on that!


I know you _think _you are, and you have very good reasons to think so because you have made good friends, but unfortunately (and I admit I dont fully know your circumstances) when it comes to the* bottom line* you _will_ be a foreigner and they will stick to their own.


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## XTreme

Stravinsky said:


> I know you _think _you are, and you have very good reasons to think so because you have made good friends, but unfortunately (and I admit I dont fully know your circumstances) when it comes to the* bottom line* you _will_ be a foreigner and they will stick to their own.


Wrong Jon.....total misconception held by foreigners who are on the wrong side of the wall. You can reach a point where the fact that you were born elsewhere isn't remotely relevant or even considered.

A lot depends on the type of person you are and how you live your life. If you're seen out and about with the expat crowd you've marked your cards forever and there's no way back. We never have as you know.

If you live a Brit life here then that's all you'll ever be viewed as.....but when you do things like walk donkeys through the town, work on the land, do things for the community, don't take yourself too seriously, visibly demonstrate a commitment to Spain, the language, the culture etc you'll find it all changes. 

But one important point I want to make here! We never conciously tried to integrate, and we've never altered the way we live. But we found what we did in life was virtually a mirror image to the locals way of life.....so it just slotted into place.

We didn't come here to be Brits, we didn't come here to be Spanish......we came here to be ourselves. And for whatever reason, the people of the town like us for what we are.


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## mrypg9

XTreme said:


> Wrong Jon.....total misconception held by foreigners who are on the wrong side of the wall. You can reach a point where the fact that you were born elsewhere isn't remotely relevant or even considered.
> 
> A lot depends on the type of person you are and how you live your life. If you're seen out and about with the expat crowd you've marked your cards forever and there's no way back. We never have as you know.
> 
> If you live a Brit life here then that's all you'll ever be viewed as.....but when you do things like walk donkeys through the town, work on the land, do things for the community, don't take yourself too seriously, visibly demonstrate a commitment to Spain, the language, the culture etc you'll find it all changes.
> 
> But one important point I want to make here! We never conciously tried to integrate, and we've never altered the way we live. But we found what we did in life was virtually a mirror image to the locals way of life.....so it just slotted into place.
> 
> We didn't come here to be Brits, we didn't come here to be Spanish......we came here to be ourselves. And for whatever reason, the people of the town like us for what we are.


Yes, they like you for yourselves....guiris who live like Spaniards...but guiris.
We live like our Spanish friends and neighbours although we don't walk donkeys through the village...we walk a big dog though who is known locally as el Ridgeback....and we do things for the community.
But if we lived like that for a lifetime we'd still be guiris.
It's the lifestyle you have that makes you fit in to your community...although our very different lifestyle fits in too. But we'll always be Brits...what's Spanish for 'those two old English ***** with the big dog who live in the house on the corner'??
Because that's probably how we're described by the locals....


----------



## XTreme

mrypg9 said:


> Yes, they like you for yourselves....guiris who live like Spaniards...but guiris.
> We live like our Spanish friends and neighbours although we don't walk donkeys through the village...we walk a big dog though who is known locally as el Ridgeback....and we do things for the community.
> But if we lived like that for a lifetime we'd still be guiris.
> It's the lifestyle you have that makes you fit in to your community...although our very different lifestyle fits in too. But we'll always be Brits...what's Spanish for 'those two old English ***** with the big dog who live in the house on the corner'??
> Because that's probably how we're described by the locals....


You and Jon are not giving the Spanish enough credit for actually being open minded about things Mary.
They have lowlives in their midst, gitanos have lowlives within their midst, and it goes without saying that us Brits certainly have fulfilled our quota. We openly condemn our scumbags.....and they do exactly the same!

I've had Spanish and even Gitanos (incredible I know) take our side against one of their own.
The Spanish are no more joined to the hip with their own demographic than we are.
Give you an example.....no doubt you have had many black friends over the years. 
At what point did the fact that they were black go totally unnoticed by you to the point you never even thought about it.....they were just your friend.
And the same applies with the Spanish to the likes of us. There will come a time that your country of origin will never even be thought about.

Don't get me wrong....the Spanish are not perfect by any means. But they do have a lot of qualities that we've lost in our culture.....the family structure, community responsibility etc. 
Unfortunately they still have a long way to go in terms of animal care, though there are signs that things are improving.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

XTreme said:


> Wrong Jon.....total misconception held by foreigners who are on the wrong side of the wall. You can reach a point where the fact that you were born elsewhere isn't remotely relevant or even considered.
> 
> A lot depends on the type of person you are and how you live your life. If you're seen out and about with the expat crowd you've marked your cards forever and there's no way back. We never have as you know.
> 
> If you live a Brit life here then that's all you'll ever be viewed as.....but when you do things like walk donkeys through the town, work on the land, do things for the community, don't take yourself too seriously, visibly demonstrate a commitment to Spain, the language, the culture etc you'll find it all changes.
> 
> But one important point I want to make here! We never conciously tried to integrate, and we've never altered the way we live. But we found what we did in life was virtually a mirror image to the locals way of life.....so it just slotted into place.
> 
> We didn't come here to be Brits, we didn't come here to be Spanish......we came here to be ourselves. And for whatever reason, the people of the town like us for what we are.


Ha!
I've been married to a Spaniard for 20 years. I've built my life here, successfully I might add, and for his brothers and sisters I'm pretty sure I'm still the outsider, and I'm still the outsider because I'm from A DIFFERENT COUNTRY; we don't have a shared culture. The older generation of aunts and uncles are much more "accepting" actually, and the children in the family too probably. Maybe it's this family, the Basque area, or I don't know what, but I don't feel comfortable with them, and I don't think they feel comfortable with me.
This doesn't happen with my husband nor my daughter(!!) Perhaps he was adopted at birth??
Nor does it happen with other Spaniards I'm in contact with.


----------



## XTreme

Pesky Wesky said:


> Ha!
> I've been married to a Spaniard for 20 years. I've built my life here, successfully I might add, and for his brothers and sisters I'm pretty sure I'm still the outsider, and I'm still the outsider because I'm from A DIFFERENT COUNTRY; we don't have a shared culture. The older generation of aunts and uncles are much more "accepting" actually, and the children in the family too probably. Maybe it's this family, the Basque area, or I don't know what, but I don't feel comfortable with them, and I don't think they feel comfortable with me.
> This doesn't happen with my husband nor my daughter(!!) Perhaps he was adopted at birth??
> Nor does it happen with other Spaniards I'm in contact with.


I know a few Brit ladies who've had Spanish husbands and they've said similar things. Their usual complaint is continual interference from his family.....normally their mother in law.
And that does happen in Brit-Brit marriages too.....so maybe it could be more of a matriarchal clash rather than a cultural thing.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

XTreme said:


> I know a few Brit ladies who've had Spanish husbands and they've said similar things. Their usual complaint is continual interference from his family.....normally their mother in law.
> And that does happen in Brit-Brit marriages too.....so maybe it could be more of a matriarchal clash rather than a cultural thing.


Yes.
The MIL is fine - it's the siblings.
I think it's more their problem than mine though, but then I would, wouldn't I?


----------



## Stravinsky

XTreme said:


> You and Jon are not giving the Spanish enough credit for actually being open minded about things Mary..


Err, its nothing to do with being open minded. Neither am I on the wrong side of the wall, as you put it, or willing to be pidgeonholed as you made out . My neighbours are Spanish, I'm off with them shortly to meet his family in Galicia. I eat with them regularly and regard them as good friends. His family will greet us well, as we are his neighbours, but for no other reason

I'm sure your situation may be different down there as regards day to day life and the friends you have made and the way you have fitted into the community but you cant generalise like that I'm afraid


----------



## simonsaysjapan

Thanks for posting this information, folks. I am new to the forum and a Far-East Expat. UK and Irish passports, 15 years in Japan and then the Philippines.

My fiancee and I married last month in the Philipinnes after a long courtship. I am now so fed up with the UKBA that I have decided to relocate to Marbella.

A friend has offered his house there for rent and once there I will look for work and then apply for my wife's EEA Family Permit. I understand that I need an NIE, any other info you can recommend or advice on working in Marbella?


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## Stravinsky

simonsaysjapan said:


> Thanks for posting this information, folks. I am new to the forum and a Far-East Expat. UK and Irish passports, 15 years in Japan and then the Philippines.
> 
> My fiancee and I married last month in the Philipinnes after a long courtship. I am now so fed up with the UKBA that I have decided to relocate to Marbella.
> 
> A friend has offered his house there for rent and once there I will look for work and then apply for my wife's EEA Family Permit. I understand that I need an NIE, any other info you can recommend or advice on working in Marbella?


Simon, its better you start your own thread, otherwise it will get lost in this one


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## simonsaysjapan

Stravinsky said:


> Simon, its better you start your own thread, otherwise it will get lost in this one


That is sound advice, thank you. Will have to make four more posts before I can do so though, so bear with me


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## jojo

simonsaysjapan said:


> That is sound advice, thank you. Will have to make four more posts before I can do so though, so bear with me


No you dont. You can start your own thread immediately, But I can say that work in Marbella isnt easy to find - well not enough to enable you to support yourself, so you would need some other income

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9

XTreme said:


> You and Jon are not giving the Spanish enough credit for actually being open minded about things Mary.
> They have lowlives in their midst, gitanos have lowlives within their midst, and it goes without saying that us Brits certainly have fulfilled our quota. We openly condemn our scumbags.....and they do exactly the same!
> 
> I've had Spanish and even Gitanos (incredible I know) take our side against one of their own.
> The Spanish are no more joined to the hip with their own demographic than we are.
> Give you an example.....no doubt you have had many black friends over the years.
> At what point did the fact that they were black go totally unnoticed by you to the point you never even thought about it.....they were just your friend.
> And the same applies with the Spanish to the likes of us. There will come a time that your country of origin will never even be thought about.
> 
> Don't get me wrong....the Spanish are not perfect by any means. But they do have a lot of qualities that we've lost in our culture.....the family structure, community responsibility etc.
> Unfortunately they still have a long way to go in terms of animal care, though there are signs that things are improving.


Now I see where you are coming from....that is a very insightful post about which I thought for a while.
Yes, you are right. I've close friends who are black, Chinese, Sri Lankan,Czech, German and of course Spanish although I wouldn't -yet - call them close.
I only think of them in those ethnic terms when describing them to someone in order to differentiate from another person...as in 'No, not Joe the Irish guy, I mean Joe the black guy'.
I think the awareness of differences must always be there but as we get to know know each other for what we are ourselves they fade to the point where they are as unimportant as saying 'Joe who wears the Spurs football shirt'.
I don't think I've expressed that well but you'll know what I mean to say, I hope


----------



## XTreme

Stravinsky said:


> Err, its nothing to do with being open minded. Neither am I on the wrong side of the wall, as you put it, or willing to be pidgeonholed as you made out . My neighbours are Spanish, I'm off with them shortly to meet his family in Galicia. I eat with them regularly and regard them as good friends. His family will greet us well, as we are his neighbours, but for no other reason
> 
> I'm sure your situation may be different down there as regards day to day life and the friends you have made and the way you have fitted into the community but you cant generalise like that I'm afraid


You're the one who's generalised that we're always looked at as foreigners Jon.
And I honestly believe this is a psychological issue many Brits have because they're in a different environment here..........and I'm pretty sure the language issue is the root cause of it. Because lack of ability in this area can make people feel like they're outside looking in.

Obviously I can only draw from my experiences here.....and as you know, this place is a law unto itself.
And they don't think of themselves as "Spanish"......they're Andaluz.....and you don't call them anything else. Anything or anybody that's not Andaluz is mierda, and quite frankly they consider themselves a breed apart. They really don't like any Catalan people.....with a vengeance, and if I ever say anything in a grammatically correct Spanish way, they'll always correct me till I say it in Andaluz. You've got more chance of being accepted as a Brit than somebody from Catalonia has.....that's for sure.

Anyway, a funny thing happened a few months ago.....it was at the petrol station. I was joking with the old boy that works there and I called myself a Guiri.
He stepped right up to my face with an annoyed expression, touched his heart and shouted....."You're not a Guiri.....you're Andaluz".....which I was amazed at.
Consequently I immediately went home, babbled in an incomprehensible dialect of Spanish, and gave the wife a good beating!


----------



## XTreme

mrypg9 said:


> I don't think I've expressed that well but you'll know what I mean to say, I hope


You got it spot on Mary.....that's exactly what I'm getting at.....a level of conciousness whereby the colour of your skin or your passport has no bearing.


----------



## Alcalaina

Language is the thing that divides us above all else, and even when you are textbook fluent, you can't get all the subtleties of humour and wordplay.

Funny how many interpretations there are of the word _guiri_. We'd read somewhere that it was a rather derogatory word for northern Europeans. Then someone told us that it was purely descriptive, with no negative connotations (like the British calling Americans yanks). 

So we started referring to ourselves as _guiris_ and the other day we were told no, we are no longer strangers so not _guiris_ any more! We are just _los ingleses_ (that includes the Belgian, Dutch and Welsh residents but not el Aleman for some reason).


----------



## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> Language is the thing that divides us above all else, and even when you are textbook fluent, you can't get all the subtleties of humour and wordplay.
> 
> Funny how many interpretations there are of the word _guiri_. We'd read somewhere that it was a rather derogatory word for northern Europeans. Then someone told us that it was purely descriptive, with no negative connotations (like the British calling Americans yanks).
> 
> So we started referring to ourselves as _guiris_ and the other day we were told no, we are no longer strangers so not _guiris_ any more! We are just _los ingleses_ (that includes the Belgian, Dutch and Welsh residents but not el Aleman for some reason).


Was it Churchill who said that America and Britain were one nation divided by a common language?
And you are spot-on about humour being very difficult if not impossible to translate.
I'm reasonably fluent in German, used to interpret/translate it, but I don't try to be humorous in the language. Last summer our Austrian landlord Adelbert invited me to coffee. He was wearing horrible stripey cotton, baggy, very ill-fitting shorts teamed with a sort of flannel lumberjack shirt. He looked bizarre, to put it mildly. I declined the offer and when he persisted said I had ADANA work to do.
I really wanted to say'Adelbert, I wouldn't be seen dead with you in those clothes' but a literal translation could have caused offence.
Maybe Seb, if you are reading this, could provide a useful phrase for future use in such a situation...Adelbert has no dress sense.


----------



## XTreme

mrypg9 said:


> He was wearing horrible stripey cotton, baggy, very ill-fitting shorts teamed with a sort of flannel lumberjack shirt. He looked bizarre, to put it mildly.


Sounds like he visits the same gents outfitters as Stravinsky Mary.

Suits you sir!


----------



## Stravinsky

XTreme said:


> You're the one who's generalised that we're always looked at as foreigners Jon.


No I'm not 

I'm drawing on 6 years experience of talking to people on forums, speaking to Spanish people, listening to people experiences here "when the chips are down".

Now I guess I accept that's only a small snippit of the overall picture, but conversely just because you have made a life for yourselves there in the circumstances you describe doesnt mean it is the norm 

By the way ... I dont feel like an outsider here, the main reason being that I make the effort When you see people shouting at Spaniards in English or German getting annoyed because the Spaniard doesnt understand them, then I guess you see why we begin to get a bad name  I still remember the guy in Denia asking for a pint of bitter, and another asking if they could have a "brolly" bought out for them.


----------



## XTreme

Stravinsky said:


> I'm drawing on 6 years experience of banning people on Expat Forums for making Hitler vids about me and laughing at my ponytail!


I won't argue with that Jon!

Interesting point you make about some Brits giving us all a bad name.....because I remember years ago debating the pros and cons of Brits in Spain in the past with you. I seem to recall you firmly in the "We're all Brits together marooned on a desert island" type POV.......reminiscent of some geriatric, incontinent version of Lord of the Flies.

I think the counter argument was put forward somewhere along the lines of the majority of Brits landing in Spain had been jettisoned out of the likes of imploding council estates, community care homes, psychiatric institutions, and prisons.

What was their legacy here? Defaults on mortgages and loans, abandoned properties, dodgy deals on fellow Brits, outright theft, and a bad taste in the mouth of the locals because Brits defaulted on payments to them as well.

As I'm in business here I see and hear about a lot of things going down that the average Expat doesn't.....and it really isn't pleasant. I was going to list a couple of examples but decided not to......because it wouldn't be wise for me to speak about them. 

It's bad....it really is....and you won't be speaking to those type of people on Expat forums. Generally most of the people in places like this are as much cut off from the seedier side of life here as they would be in Britain.
Point I'm making is don't consider your immediate peer group of being representative of all things Brit in Spain. It's just part of it (the nicer part of it).....not the whole picture.


----------



## Solwriter

XTreme said:


> You're the one who's generalised that we're always looked at as foreigners Jon.
> And I honestly believe this is a psychological issue many Brits have because they're in a different environment here..........and I'm pretty sure the language issue is the root cause of it. Because lack of ability in this area can make people feel like they're outside looking in.


Agree , to a degree.
I would love to be able to understand the whole conversation going on in the local shop, for example, rather than picking up snippets (and probably misinterpreting the real gist of the conversation).
I struggle with Andaluz on a daily basis and improve on a daily basis too, but it would take more than my lifetime to feel a complete part of this community, because I miss so much in translation.



XTreme said:


> Obviously I can only draw from my experiences here.....and as you know, this place is a law unto itself.
> And they don't think of themselves as "Spanish"......they're Andaluz.....and you don't call them anything else. Anything or anybody that's not Andaluz is mierda, and quite frankly they consider themselves a breed apart. They really don't like any Catalan people.....with a vengeance, and if I ever say anything in a grammatically correct Spanish way, they'll always correct me till I say it in Andaluz. You've got more chance of being accepted as a Brit than somebody from Catalonia has.....that's for sure.


I would say it is even more in depth than that.
People from our village have a good relationship with the village 10k up the road, but the population of the town in the other direction (5k), they see as beneath them. Likewise, there is a real feud between two other nearby villages, which comes (I think) from the Franco years. The people of one village are seen as those who gained their property and status under false pretences, but their reply is to deride the opposing villagers. I cant remember the actual term they use, but they are basically saying that these villagers are uncouth, mentally simple peasants! 

But, I said I agreed 'to a degree', because (to me, anyway) the feeling of being a foreigner or outsider is _more than language_. It is also about not growing up within the culture and not understanding all of the 'social rules' and struggling to understand the intricacies of the legal system which working Spaniards _appear_ to understand quite well (or know how to deal with without spending a fortune).
Much of this can be learned over time, and understanding the language certainly helps here, but I do think it makes many immigrants here feel at a loss at the very least!


----------



## xgarb

I think that the 'acceptance' thing or just not noticing or caring where you are from _can _be quite generational. 

I have friends and a brother who are permanent residents in Australia and New Zealand. They have friends from all over as well their respective countries and no-one cares where you were born apart from an initial chat about it and the usual ribbing about sports teams. If there was a beer misprice at the local shop they wouldn't start phoning friends from their own country first!

My theory is that the younger generations are more used to living, studying and working abroad and realise that (as the world becomes homogenised) that actually we are all pretty much the same underneath. If you have a connection with someone it doesn't matter where they are from or what their first language is, they are you friend and you'd phone them first when the beer is cheap!

Some of the older Spanish people I meet have rarely travelled outside their pueblo, never mind Spain. To them I probably seem very different and possibly a bit odd (although without exception they have been friendly and always stuff me full of whatever food is to hand!). Maybe some of them would always think of me as different in some way and only really a visitor.


----------



## Stravinsky

XTreme said:


> I won't argue with that Jon!
> 
> Interesting point you make about some Brits giving us all a bad name.....because I remember years ago debating the pros and cons of Brits in Spain in the past with you. I seem to recall you firmly in the "We're all Brits together marooned on a desert island" type POV.......reminiscent of some geriatric, incontinent version of Lord of the Flies.
> 
> I think the counter argument was put forward somewhere along the lines of the majority of Brits landing in Spain had been jettisoned out of the likes of imploding council estates, community care homes, psychiatric institutions, and prisons.
> 
> What was their legacy here? Defaults on mortgages and loans, abandoned properties, dodgy deals on fellow Brits, outright theft, and a bad taste in the mouth of the locals because Brits defaulted on payments to them as well.
> 
> As I'm in business here I see and hear about a lot of things going down that the average Expat doesn't.....and it really isn't pleasant. I was going to list a couple of examples but decided not to......because it wouldn't be wise for me to speak about them.
> 
> It's bad....it really is....and you won't be speaking to those type of people on Expat forums. Generally most of the people in places like this are as much cut off from the seedier side of life here as they would be in Britain.
> Point I'm making is don't consider your immediate peer group of being representative of all things Brit in Spain. It's just part of it (the nicer part of it).....not the whole picture.


I should know better than to get into discussions with you, as you always know best  You know my peer group_ and_ my views far better than I do :clap2: I think your memory is failing you 

Speaking personally, my aim here almost from the beginning was to keep away from physical Brit groups, and thats really what has happened. We have two Brit friends, and thats it! Forums and real life are somewhat different arent they!

That's not really anything to do with the discussion though is it, yet I find myself being put into a position of almost defending my way of life here .... ah well ....


----------



## XTreme

Stravinsky said:


> I should know better than to get into discussions with you, as you always know best  You know my peer group_ and_ my views far better than I do :clap2:


Yes I do know your peer group Jon.....they're easily identifiable by the pungent odour of stale urine and Werthers Originals, and their almost fanatical devotion to Mah Jong.

However......I'm good for business as Bob well knows! 

Front page of the Brit national dailies in 2009 with the Moraira scam as you recall! Who else has delivered the sole attention of the British media on a plate? 

Now you get down here this Summer and I promise you a weekend you'll never forget! No matter how hard you try!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Solwriter said:


> ... the feeling of being a foreigner or outsider is _more than language_. It is also about not growing up within the culture and not understanding all of the 'social rules' and struggling to understand the intricacies of the legal system which working Spaniards _appear_ to understand quite well (or know how to deal with without spending a fortune).
> Much of this can be learned over time, and understanding the language certainly helps here, but I do think it makes many immigrants here feel at a loss at the very least!


A couple of things
The feeling of being an outsider is definitely _*more than language*_. I go back to the UK every summer - and logically - I feel more and more of an outsider everytime I go. I don't know who they're talking about much of the time, or what they are eating, or even what they are saying. A lot of the time I'm grateful that I don't know to be honest, because when I find out it can usually be defined as junk of some kind - junkie people, junk food and junk coming out of their mouths!

Secondly, it has been pointed out on this thread that oftentimes it is the foreigner who doesn't want to mix with Spanish society because they are not sufficiently interested in the country where they now live (weird, but true IMO) or because they can't because they are unable to communicate. 
But there is also the case of the Spaniard who rejects the immigrant because they are not interested enough - or because they can't communicate with them...

Just like any other country in the world I expect.


----------



## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> A couple of things
> The feeling of being an outsider is definitely _*more than language*_. I go back to the UK every summer - and logically - I feel more and more of an outsider everytime I go. I don't know who they're talking about much of the time, or what they are eating, or even what they are saying. A lot of the time I'm grateful that I don't know to be honest, because when I find out it can usually be defined as junk of some kind - junkie people, junk food and junk coming out of their mouths!
> 
> Secondly, it has been pointed out on this thread that oftentimes it is the foreigner who doesn't want to mix with Spanish society because they are not sufficiently interested in the country where they now live (weird, but true IMO) or because they can't because they are unable to communicate.
> But there is also the case of the Spaniard who rejects the immigrant because they are not interested enough - or because they can't communicate with them...
> 
> Just like any other country in the world I expect.


I only go to the UK two or at most three times a year now. When I went at least once a week I felt more 'connected' but now it's like visiting an alien land whose ways I know little about.
Most of the time I'm with teacher union friends - I usually only overnight with family as son drives me to Heathrow to get my flight home and anyway I see them nearly every month in Spain. So I have no idea of what's the latest Big Thing in pop music, fashion , films etc.
Sometimes I feel like that judge in the 1950s who is supposed to have asked 'Pray who is Miss Diana Dors?'
Cheryl Lloyd, Lily Allen, someone called Adele...I have never heard and seldom heard of these people and more like them.
I also feel very uneasy when in crowds in the UK .I've said before that I always detect a sense of latent aggression.
And if you haven't experienced Broad Street in Birmingham on a Saturday night....makes Sodom and Gomorrah seem like croquet on the lawn...
The immigrant scene in Prague was very different. Loads of mainly young drop-out types who'd been to Prague on a stag weekend, liked the cheap beer and easy sex so returned to live, often in a room in a shared flat,, spoke a kind of English so earned their meagre living by 'teaching' it....
Unscrupulous young Czech women who thought mistakenly that all British immigrants were rich would hang around the 'expat' bars in the hopes of hooking a prospective husband....
Very little interaction between host and immigrant Brit community other than for sexual purposes.
That's how I saw it anyway.
Our friends were mainly Czech, American and Serbian.


----------



## Stravinsky

XTreme said:


> Now you get down here this Summer and I promise you a weekend you'll never forget! No matter how hard you try!



The offer worries me 

I may well be popping down that way though, photography trip calls


----------



## XTreme

Stravinsky said:


> The offer worries me
> 
> I may well be popping down that way though, photography trip calls


He's waiting.........










......and getting warmed up for your visit!






I hope you've got the testicular fortitude to go into his compound this time!


----------



## Iberican

I'm new to the Forum and was planning on moving to the Costa del Sol inland a litlle. Was so impressed by all of it, even on the coast. Busy highways, yes, but off them in into the "tourisity" towns found it charming. Not at all what I had been lead to believe! 

For instance, old town Marbella, just a very short stroll uphill from the seafront is very quaint and beautiful. And the port at Cabopino, so tranquil. Inland also, people are friendly and the villages so clean and white. 

However, I fear my plans will be put on hold until I check out just how close to the CdS the scarey guy in the photos lives!!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> I only go to the UK two or at most three times a year now. When I went at least once a week I felt more 'connected' but now it's like visiting an alien land whose ways I know little about.
> Most of the time I'm with teacher union friends - I usually only overnight with family as son drives me to Heathrow to get my flight home and anyway I see them nearly every month in Spain. So I have no idea of what's the latest Big Thing in pop music, fashion , films etc.
> Sometimes I feel like that judge in the 1950s who is supposed to have asked 'Pray who is Miss Diana Dors?'
> Cheryl Lloyd, Lily Allen, someone called Adele...I have never heard and seldom heard of these people and more like them.
> I also feel very uneasy when in crowds in the UK .I've said before that I always detect a sense of latent aggression.
> And if you haven't experienced Broad Street in Birmingham on a Saturday night....makes Sodom and Gomorrah seem like croquet on the lawn...
> The immigrant scene in Prague was very different. Loads of mainly young drop-out types who'd been to Prague on a stag weekend, liked the cheap beer and easy sex so returned to live, often in a room in a shared flat,, spoke a kind of English so earned their meagre living by 'teaching' it....
> Unscrupulous young Czech women who thought mistakenly that all British immigrants were rich would hang around the 'expat' bars in the hopes of hooking a prospective husband....
> Very little interaction between host and immigrant Brit community other than for sexual purposes.
> That's how I saw it anyway.
> Our friends were mainly Czech, American and Serbian.


This is Adele mrypg9, and she is worth listening to I think


----------



## Iberican

That's very useful information mrypg9, so thank you for that as I'm planning an imminent move to southern Spain.

Just as an aside, I've looked at robinjgraham's original post and cannot see what could have made you react so strongly, especially as he says he has only been in Spain for about a year. Was it the remark about wanting to be a little inland from the coast? As far as I can see he didn't denigrate anywhere. 

I don't know Spain very well but imagine that anyone wanting to learn the language would think that they would have more chance of meeting Spanish people away from the tourist hotspots.

Must say that I was very impressed with the coast when I visited this winter. Yes, it's built-up and a bit raw and unfinshed in places but once you get away from the highway and the huge, unfinished concrete developments, then the coastal strip is actually surprisingly pleasant and not too crowded (at least in December/January).

Is the reputation of the coastal area a sensitive subject with the Spanish too? Genuinely interested as, if I'm to make this area my home and once I find my feet, I would like to be able to contibute something positive to it.


----------



## mrypg9

Iberican said:


> That's very useful information mrypg9, so thank you for that as I'm planning an imminent move to southern Spain.
> 
> Just as an aside, I've looked at robinjgraham's original post and cannot see what could have made you react so strongly, especially as he says he has only been in Spain for about a year. Was it the remark about wanting to be a little inland from the coast? As far as I can see he didn't denigrate anywhere.
> 
> I don't know Spain very well but imagine that anyone wanting to learn the language would think that they would have more chance of meeting Spanish people away from the tourist hotspots.
> 
> Must say that I was very impressed with the coast when I visited this winter. Yes, it's built-up and a bit raw and unfinshed in places but once you get away from the highway and the huge, unfinished concrete developments, then the coastal strip is actually surprisingly pleasant and not too crowded (at least in December/January).
> 
> Is the reputation of the coastal area a sensitive subject with the Spanish too? Genuinely interested as, if I'm to make this area my home and once I find my feet, I would like to be able to contibute something positive to it.


Well, I thought I had made clear what I objected to and I don't intend to start up the topic again as it's been thrashed out on other threads but I think from your post you are already aware of the dangers of taking an area and generalising or stereotyping.
You have seen for yourself that the CdS is not one homogenous region of tourist-centred towns and English-speaking milieux.

Jimenato 's post explains why I objected to certain inferences in the OP...it comes down to thinking before you post, considering what you write.

That uninformed view is principally what I object to as you have discovered there are many quiet places of considerable charm on the CdS. Not everyone who chooses life on the Costas has done so to avoid 'Spain'. There are towns up and down the Costas -not only del Sol but the other Costas which earn their living from tourism. They are as Spanish as Bournemouth, Brighton and Blackpool are British. In summer a large number of tourists descend on us....Madrilenos with second homes here. 

Anywhere in Spain is....Spain in all its infinite variety, from bustling cities to remote pueblos. To imagine your part of it is 'the real Spain' and that somehow your experience is superior to that of people who have chosen to live elsewhere is imo pretentious and, frankly ,risible.


----------



## mrypg9

I should have added...We forget, some of us, that Spanish people flock to the CdS in the summer for their holidays. It's a huge error to think that the only 'tourists' are non-Spanish. 
Btw, why has the word 'tourist' got such negative connotations in some quarters?


----------



## Iberican

Thanks for your reply, mrypj9. I'm sure that the reputation of the costas will improve over time but I wouldn't get too upset about it. Everywhere and everybody has a bad reputation somewhere! I 'm sure I have!! Look at the reputation of the French in the UK, but I have found them to be just the opposite.

Whilst in Spain and staying inland from the coast, I met quite a few expats who had moved away from the coast because they wanted a quieter lifestyle, which is understandable. 

Some also wanted to mix more with the Spanish but didn't seem to have succeeded to any great extent. I guess it's the language again, unless one has a good grasp of the 'foreign' language, it's natural to gravitate to people speaking your mother tongue - wherever you are.

As for tourists, some find them annoying but I really like to see them here, halfway down the Atlantic coast of France - during the holidays, they add 'colour'. The Brits are usually easily identifiable and well-liked by the local French whilst the Parisians are known for their impatience and arrogance and generally detested. But they, too, can be great fun once they've de-stressed. I heard that the whole of southern Spain is invaded in summer by the Madrilenos on holiday. What's the local opinion of them?

I try to bear in mind that tourists often don't know what residents consider basic and may have had a few difficulties so a little friendliness and consideration towards them can go a long way to making their holidays much more enjoyable and good-tempered!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Iberican said:


> Thanks for your reply, mrypj9. I'm sure that the reputation of the costas will improve over time but I wouldn't get too upset about it. Everywhere and everybody has a bad reputation somewhere! I 'm sure I have!! Look at the reputation of the French in the UK, but I have found them to be just the opposite.
> 
> Whilst in Spain and staying inland from the coast, I met quite a few expats who had moved away from the coast because they wanted a quieter lifestyle, which is understandable.
> 
> Some also wanted to mix more with the Spanish but didn't seem to have succeeded to any great extent. I guess it's the language again, unless one has a good grasp of the 'foreign' language, it's natural to gravitate to people speaking your mother tongue - wherever you are.
> 
> As for tourists, some find them annoying but I really like to see them here, halfway down the Atlantic coast of France - during the holidays, they add 'colour'. The Brits are usually easily identifiable and well-liked by the local French whilst the Parisians are known for their impatience and arrogance and generally detested. But they, too, can be great fun once they've de-stressed. I heard that the whole of southern Spain is invaded in summer by the Madrilenos on holiday. What's the local opinion of them?
> 
> I try to bear in mind that tourists often don't know what residents consider basic and may have had a few difficulties so a little friendliness and consideration towards them can go a long way to making their holidays much more enjoyable and good-tempered!


Stravinsky has some very down to earth ideas about intergration if you can unearth any of his previous posts. X Treme has others. 

It's true the Madrileños invade the south and the south-ish parts of Spain in the summer like Valencia. I don't know what the attitude to them is in general, I don't _think_ there's any great problem. Certainly this year they should be welcomed with open arms, if not Champagne and an orchestra, 'cos any business is good business.
The Brits however, well many of the Brits have the name they deserve, drunken %$**¿¿¡¡%¡!!&!


----------



## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> Stravinsky has some very down to earth ideas about intergration if you can unearth any of his previous posts. X Treme has others.
> 
> It's true the Madrileños invade the south and the south-ish parts of Spain in the summer like Valencia. I don't know what the attitude to them is in general, I don't _think_ there's any great problem. Certainly this year they should be welcomed with open arms, if not Champagne and an orchestra, 'cos any business is good business.
> The Brits however, well many of the Brits have the name they deserve, drunken %$**¿¿¡¡%¡!!&!



The locals here regard the Madrilenos as arrogant, pushy and rude...and smile as they take their money.
We've just come back from a trip to Estepona. We walked along the prom with Azor, had drinks with friends...a lovely morning. We sat outside chatting and drinking coffee as it was warm but windy.
But the town was well, if not quite deserted, certainly very quiet indeed. We like it like that...but the poor bar and shop owners must be feeling the pinch.
As we csat drinkig our espressos we were approached by two well-dressed teenage girls who asked us for money...
I agree with you about the Brits. I've posted before about the incident with the drunken vomiting Brit outside one of our local cafes.
That is, fortunately, a rarity...but because of that it made quite an impression on those watching.


----------



## country boy

mrypg9 said:


> The locals here regard the Madrilenos as arrogant, pushy and rude....



They drive well tho', don't they......!!!


----------



## xabiaxica

country boy said:


> They drive well tho' don't they!!!


better than the French 



:bolt:


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## mrypg9

country boy said:


> They drive well tho', don't they......!!!



Dunno. We only see them in our local supermarket or walking to the beach with kids and often nanny in tow..


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## jimenato

The main beach at Estepona (I think it's called La Rada) is bloody huge - so big that in never gets particularly crowded, however in high summer there would be several thousand people on it. My guess is that 99% of those would be Spanish - if you walked the length of it you would be hard pushed to hear much English being spoken. It is just a myth that the CDS is overrun by Brits.


----------



## XTreme

mrypg9 said:


> I've posted before about the incident with the drunken vomiting Brit.....


Don't judge Stravinsky too harshly Mary.....when he's holding a winning hand in Mah Jong he does tend to get caught up in the moment and overdo it on the Babycham.


----------



## mrypg9

jimenato said:


> The main beach at Estepona (I think it's called La Rada) is bloody huge - so big that in never gets particularly crowded, however in high summer there would be several thousand people on it. My guess is that 99% of those would be Spanish - if you walked the length of it you would be hard pushed to hear much English being spoken. It is just a myth that the CDS is overrun by Brits.


It's very under-run at the moment. You are right - of course there are a few Northern European visitors in summer but whenever we take Azor for an evening stroll along the paseo the crowd is overwhelmingly Spanish.
I think some towns in the Costa Blanca are more British...Alicante, Torrrevieja and Benidorm perhaps?
The impression a lot of people have of parts of the CdS is I think not so much that it's full of Brits and Germans -Brits tend to go further north and I've heard that Germans have taken over Mallorca but that it's a place of dubious wealth, OTT displays of said wealth and an excessive amount of criminality.
To some extent and in some places that may well be true, I wouldn't know, being neither wealthy nor a criminal. But it's a sign of a lazy mind to generalise, I was told repeatedly at school and that ambience is confined in any case to a few places.
I think we are lucky to have ended up where we are. We looked at places inland and considered other parts of Spain but we used our family house in our village as a base when we first arrived and the area grew on us. Quiet but within easy reach of two towns.
I do dislike Marbella and Soto Grande but that is down to pure prejudice on my part and perhaps envy that I am not thin, young, rich or glamorous enough to fit in those places.


----------



## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> The locals here regard the Madrilenos as arrogant, pushy and rude...and smile as they take their money.
> We've just come back from a trip to Estepona. We walked along the prom with Azor, had drinks with friends...a lovely morning. We sat outside chatting and drinking coffee as it was warm but windy.
> But the town was well, if not quite deserted, certainly very quiet indeed. We like it like that...but the poor bar and shop owners must be feeling the pinch.


I think they all went to Gibraltar to buy petrol - it's just taken us an hour and a half to get out! I've never seen such long queues.


----------



## jimenato

Alcalaina said:


> I think they all went to Gibraltar to buy petrol - it's just taken us an hour and a half to get out! I've never seen such long queues.


I always leave by 3.30 - and never go on a Friday.


----------



## Alcalaina

jimenato said:


> I always leave by 3.30 - and never go on a Friday.


Won't make that mistake again!


----------



## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> Won't make that mistake again!


A very nice check-out girl in Morrisons told us that Tuesday was the best day for shopping there.

Something to do with deliveries over the weekend and shelf-stacking. Sundays the store is crowded with Orthodox Jews...there is a good selection of Kosher products.

We really only go for the Quorn stuff for OH. We pack the freezer with enough Quorn burgers, sausages, mince, chicken pieces, bacon and meat balls to last around four months - plus two bottles of the cheapest gin.

Gibraltar is another place I view through prejudiced eyes...we really should explore a bit more. We've only been to the airport, Morrisons and our Bank. There must be a lot more - and I don't mean the apes and the tunnels, I mean quaint back streets and tree-shaded squares....


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## country boy

mrypg9;724264 There must be a lot more - and I don't mean the apes and the tunnels said:


> No...not really...it's a bit like down town Portsmouth in the 60's. It's convenient for "stuff" and that's it really; it is quaint from a military point of view tho'.


----------



## brocher

mrypg9 said:


> It's very under-run at the moment. You are right - of course there are a few Northern European visitors in summer but whenever we take Azor for an evening stroll along the paseo the crowd is overwhelmingly Spanish.
> I think some towns in the Costa Blanca are more British...Alicante, Torrrevieja and Benidorm perhaps?
> The impression a lot of people have of parts of the CdS is I think not so much that it's full of Brits and Germans -Brits tend to go further north and I've heard that Germans have taken over Mallorca but that it's a place of dubious wealth, OTT displays of said wealth and an excessive amount of criminality.
> To some extent and in some places that may well be true, I wouldn't know, being neither wealthy nor a criminal. But it's a sign of a lazy mind to generalise, I was told repeatedly at school and that ambience is confined in any case to a few places.
> I think we are lucky to have ended up where we are. We looked at places inland and considered other parts of Spain but we used our family house in our village as a base when we first arrived and the area grew on us. Quiet but within easy reach of two towns.
> I do dislike Marbella and Soto Grande but that is down to pure prejudice on my part and perhaps envy that I am not thin, young, rich or glamorous enough to fit in those places.



I still don't "get" that. I know there is an element of "rich and glamorous" around somewhere but I just never see it - or feel it - as I wander around central Marbella. I am certainly not thin, young, rich or glamorous - but I just don't really seem to see people like that - maybe I just walk around in my own little world of oblivion!


----------



## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> A very nice check-out girl in Morrisons told us that Tuesday was the best day for shopping there.
> 
> Something to do with deliveries over the weekend and shelf-stacking. Sundays the store is crowded with Orthodox Jews...there is a good selection of Kosher products.
> 
> We really only go for the Quorn stuff for OH. We pack the freezer with enough Quorn burgers, sausages, mince, chicken pieces, bacon and meat balls to last around four months - plus two bottles of the cheapest gin.
> 
> Gibraltar is another place I view through prejudiced eyes...we really should explore a bit more. We've only been to the airport, Morrisons and our Bank. There must be a lot more - and I don't mean the apes and the tunnels, I mean quaint back streets and tree-shaded squares....


OH and I go early Sunday mornings about once every six months for teabags and Indian spices, but I went down with a girlfriend today to get some jeans from M&S (mission accomplished). It was noticeable how pushy and edgy everyone seems to be, even had some idiot shouting at us in the carpark for getting in the wrong lane ... And unbelievable that people still smoke in pubs and cafes! I heard it described as a "small town with big borders" which sums it up really. A bit sad and grubby.


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## jimenato

Sunday is a good day to go - we sometimes used to. Monday is bad - all the shelves are bare. Forget Friday and on any other day try to get out by 3.30. For Indian spices use Ramsons at Watergardens you can park free for an hour at the car park at Ocean Village.


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## mrypg9

brocher said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> 
> I still don't "get" that. I know there is an element of "rich and glamorous" around somewhere but I just never see it - or feel it - as I wander around central Marbella. I am certainly not thin, young, rich or glamorous - but I just don't really seem to see people like that - maybe I just walk around in my own little world of oblivion!


My OH may not be wealthy and not exactly in the first flush of youth (hope she's not reading this) but she is slim, well-dressed and has been described as elegant when in her glad rags. She has been described as a cross between Joanna Lumley and Audrey Hepburn in appearance. (see photos if interested enough).

She goes to some kind of beauty clinic in Marbella to have unspecified 'treatments'.
I do not ask about them as a) I do not understand what they are meant to do b) I don't believe they do what they claim and c) I am miserly and deem things like that a huge extravagance and waste of money.

On the rare occasions we go together I feel as if I should be carrying the shopping bags...I am short, quite solid, dress casually and could NEVER be described as elegant. (again, see photos if interested enough). Since I retired I have not worn a skirt and 'heels' or used make-up and if I'm going somewhere 'posh' I prefer my dress style to be smart-casual.

As I said, it's my prejudice, nothing else and probably seems quite daft to others. 
Smart places aren't where I feel at ease, that's all.

P.S. Please note: since reading your post re paragraphing I have taken pains to structure my posts in neat capsules!!


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## mrypg9

Ref previous post: I'm referring to Puerto Banus rather than Marbella as that is where we mainly go...


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## Solwriter

brocher said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> 
> I still don't "get" that. I know there is an element of "rich and glamorous" around somewhere but I just never see it - or feel it - as I wander around central Marbella. I am certainly not thin, young, rich or glamorous - but I just don't really seem to see people like that - maybe I just walk around in my own little world of oblivion!


And even when you see those rich and glamorous people, they may not be who you think they are!
A few years ago we were on holiday on the CDS and, although I know that Spanish people stare a lot, the attention I received bordered on the extreme.

Waiters in restaurants pushed others out of the way to get us the best table, people were taking photos of me, shop assistants were rushing to serve me....
It was all quite strange, until a local Brit told me that everyone thought I was Donna Summer!

At first I was a little annoyed, as she's quite a few years older than me (although she has worn well...), but it was an experience being famous I guess!

I sometimes get the same stares in Granada, but luckily not as often now.
Obviously Donna is not as popular as she once was.....


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## mrypg9

Solwriter said:


> And even when you see those rich and glamorous people, they may not be who you think they are!
> A few years ago we were on holiday on the CDS and, although I know that Spanish people stare a lot, the attention I received bordered on the extreme.
> 
> Waiters in restaurants pushed others out of the way to get us the best table, people were taking photos of me, shop assistants were rushing to serve me....
> It was all quite strange, until a local Brit told me that everyone thought I was Donna Summer!
> 
> At first I was a little annoyed, as she's quite a few years older than me (although she has worn well...), but it was an experience being famous I guess!
> 
> I sometimes get the same stares in Granada, but luckily not as often now.
> Obviously Donna is not as popular as she once was.....



Not on the same level of glamour...but my ex-husband was mistaken for Geoffrey Howe when he was in Moscow on business - he is a Social Housing Consultant.

He was at first taken aback by the attention he received at the hotel he stayed in but when he was told that 'of course it was understood, Mr. Howe, that your visit may be under the radar and we respect your wish to remain incognito' he decided to make the most of it.

Of course they had only to inspect his passport but nobody bothered to ask for it.


I've just googled Donna Summer and I can only say 'You should be so lucky' and that Puerto Banus is the place for you!!


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## Alcalaina

We once stayed at a very posh hotel in Kuala Lumpur on our way to Australia as part of a deal with Malaysian Airlines. Strolling into reception bleary-eyed, wearing scruffy jeans and carrying a guitar, my husband was mistaken for Eric Clapton and dozens of white-gloved minions appeared from nowhere wanting to carry his guitar. Not sure if they thought I was Pattie Boyd ...


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## jules 123

mrypg9 said:


> My OH may not be wealthy and not exactly in the first flush of youth (hope she's not reading this) but she is slim, well-dressed and has been described as elegant when in her glad rags. She has been described as a cross between Joanna Lumley and Audrey Hepburn in appearance. (see photos if interested enough).
> 
> She goes to some kind of beauty clinic in Marbella to have unspecified 'treatments'.
> I do not ask about them as a) I do not understand what they are meant to do b) I don't believe they do what they claim and c) I am miserly and deem things like that a huge extravagance and waste of money.
> 
> On the rare occasions we go together I feel as if I should be carrying the shopping bags...I am short, quite solid, dress casually and could NEVER be described as elegant. (again, see photos if interested enough). Since I retired I have not worn a skirt and 'heels' or used make-up and if I'm going somewhere 'posh' I prefer my dress style to be smart-casual.
> 
> As I said, it's my prejudice, nothing else and probably seems quite daft to others.
> Smart places aren't where I feel at ease, that's all.
> 
> P.S. Please note: since reading your post re paragraphing I have taken pains to structure my posts in neat capsules!!


I did, thanks (looked at photos) but I'm sorry to say that you two lovely ladies were out-classed by the even lovelier Azor.  He really is a beautiful dog.


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## jimenato

jules 123 said:


> I did, thanks (looked at photos) but I'm sorry to say that you two lovely ladies were out-classed by the even lovelier Azor.  He really is a beautiful dog.


You need flirting lessons. Try Country Boy.


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## jimenato

mrypg9 said:


> I've just googled Donna Summer


Me too!!:eyebrows:


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## brocher

mrypg9 said:


> My OH may not be wealthy and not exactly in the first flush of youth (hope she's not reading this) but she is slim, well-dressed and has been described as elegant when in her glad rags. She has been described as a cross between Joanna Lumley and Audrey Hepburn in appearance. (see photos if interested enough).
> 
> She goes to some kind of beauty clinic in Marbella to have unspecified 'treatments'.
> I do not ask about them as a) I do not understand what they are meant to do b) I don't believe they do what they claim and c) I am miserly and deem things like that a huge extravagance and waste of money.
> 
> On the rare occasions we go together I feel as if I should be carrying the shopping bags...I am short, quite solid, dress casually and could NEVER be described as elegant. (again, see photos if interested enough). Since I retired I have not worn a skirt and 'heels' or used make-up and if I'm going somewhere 'posh' I prefer my dress style to be smart-casual.
> 
> As I said, it's my prejudice, nothing else and probably seems quite daft to others.
> Smart places aren't where I feel at ease, that's all.
> 
> P.S. Please note: since reading your post re paragraphing I have taken pains to structure my posts in neat capsules!!



Your " capsules" are wonderful - very neat - as they should be from an educator!!

You paint a hilarious picture of yourself and your OH. If it was all true, you two would never have passed the time of day, let alone got together. I know they say opposites attract, but if the poor woman was all the "bimbo" you portray, and you were really half the "witch" you have cast yourself in, it would never have happened!

It must be Banus that gives you the willies, because I feel fine in Marbella, and I haven't even worked out how to get make up to stay on in the heat, even if I could be bothered, which I can't!


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## mrypg9

jules 123 said:


> I did, thanks (looked at photos) but I'm sorry to say that you two lovely ladies were out-classed by the even lovelier Azor.  He really is a beautiful dog.


And both of us would agree with you. Thankyou

He is not only handsome, strong and physically perfect: more importantly, he has an extremely gentle nature.

None of the above attributes apply to at least one of his owners....


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## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> Not on the same level of glamour...but my ex-husband was mistaken for Geoffrey Howe when he was in Moscow on business - he is a Social Housing Consultant.
> 
> He was at first taken aback by the attention he received at the hotel he stayed in but when he was told that 'of course it was understood, Mr. Howe, that your visit may be under the radar and we respect your wish to remain incognito' he decided to make the most of it.
> 
> Of course they had only to inspect his passport but nobody bothered to ask for it.
> 
> 
> I've just googled Donna Summer and I can only say 'You should be so lucky' and that Puerto Banus is the place for you!!


Shame on those who had to Google Donna - Hot Stuff - Summer
And congratulations to Solwriter on being told she looks like her!

I was once told I looked like Joan Collins which I did not take as a compliment (I was 21 and Joan was already over the hill) and also a Colombian terrorist...


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## mrypg9

brocher said:


> Your " capsules" are wonderful - very neat - as they should be from an educator!!
> 
> You paint a hilarious picture of yourself and your OH. If it was all true, you two would never have passed the time of day, let alone got together. I know they say opposites attract, but if the poor woman was all the "bimbo" you portray, and you were really half the "witch" you have cast yourself in, it would never have happened!
> 
> It must be Banus that gives you the willies, because I feel fine in Marbella, and I haven't even worked out how to get make up to stay on in the heat, even if I could be bothered, which I can't!


My OH is the brains of the two of us...no bimbo she. She ran two successful businesses employing over twenty big hairy truck mechanics and got respect.

I learn from books. She learnt from life.


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## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> Shame on those who had to Google Donna - Hot Stuff - Summer
> And congratulations to Solwriter on being told she looks like her!
> 
> I was once told I looked like Joan Collins which I did not take as a compliment (I was 21 and Joan was already over the hill) and also a Colombian terrorist...



I only googled her to see what she looks like nowadays!!

Of course I know all about Donna Summer....in my younger days when I was a weekend regular at various gay clubs and discos 'Love to Love You Baby' and ' Hot Stuff'were the soundtrack of my life.

I can only say that if Solwriter is mistaken for DS she is one lucky lady....


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## Solwriter

mrypg9 said:


> I only googled her to see what she looks like nowadays!!
> 
> Of course I know all about Donna Summer....in my younger days when I was a weekend regular at various gay clubs and discos 'Love to Love You Baby' and ' Hot Stuff'were the soundtrack of my life.
> 
> I can only say that if Solwriter is mistaken for DS she is one lucky lady....


I hated her Stock Aitken and Waterman phrase.....
But yes, I still get people telling me I look like her, especially gay men.
But my kids think I look more like Trisha Goddard.
I just think I look like me.


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## Solwriter

Pesky Wesky said:


> I was once told I looked like Joan Collins which I did not take as a compliment (I was 21 and Joan was already over the hill) *and also a Colombian terrorist*...


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## Solwriter

mrypg9 said:


> Not on the same level of glamour...but my ex-husband was mistaken for Geoffrey Howe when he was in Moscow on business - he is a Social Housing Consultant.
> 
> He was at first taken aback by the attention he received at the hotel he stayed in but when he was told that 'of course it was understood, Mr. Howe, that your visit may be under the radar and we respect your wish to remain incognito' he decided to make the most of it.
> 
> Of course they had only to inspect his passport but nobody bothered to ask for it.


So how did you, as a left wing activist, feel about your ex being mistaken for Geoffrey Howe......? 




Alcalaina said:


> We once stayed at a very posh hotel in Kuala Lumpur on our way to Australia as part of a deal with Malaysian Airlines. Strolling into reception bleary-eyed, wearing scruffy jeans and carrying a guitar, my husband was mistaken for Eric Clapton and dozens of white-gloved minions appeared from nowhere wanting to carry his guitar. Not sure if they thought I was Pattie Boyd ...


Was 'Wonderful Tonight' one of your songs....?

My husband has been told he looks like an aging rock star too, but we can never work out which one!


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## XTreme

Hasn't anybody noticed the similarity between Jo and a young Glynis Barber in her Dempsey and Makepeace days? Both are posh birds as well!


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## mrypg9

Solwriter said:


> So how did you, as a left wing activist, feel about your ex being mistaken for Geoffrey Howe......?
> 
> 
> !


I wasn't with him, he had by then remarried -to a wealthy very left- wing LSE lecturer - so I thought it was an amusing anecdote.

But what's wrong with being mistaken for a fundamentally decent conservative who gave the _coup-de-grace_ to Thatcher?


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## Alcalaina

Solwriter said:


> Was 'Wonderful Tonight' one of your songs....?
> 
> My husband has been told he looks like an aging rock star too, but we can never work out which one!


No, but we did a mean version of _Nobody Knows You When You're Down and Out_ which EC did on the Unplugged album. His didn't have a blues kazoo solo like ours though. :yo:


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## baldilocks

Donna who? and who are all these other pop people you are talking about - I was once mistaken for someone on Anglia television back in the 70s but they couldn't remember his name and nor could I.

:focus:

CdeS - we went down there on Friday to Fuengirola (the place that most Brits mispronounce) because we wanted to get some shopping that is only available in a Brit shop (Iceland) - Flora Light, plain chocolate digestives, smoked haddock, gammon steaks, etc. As a "treat" we also decided to go for our first chish and fips in over three years - not very good - the fish was about as thick as a cigarette paper with the batter about four times as thick, since it had been frozen, the batter was lovely and crisp on the outside but un[der]-cooked and sludgy next to the fish. The chips were quite good - not those thin stringy things.

NOTE: If you find that on-street parking is pretty much all taken up and then you find a large open area being used for parking that is almost empty - BEWARE especially if it is a Friday and next to a mosque. We got back to the car to find ourselves almost boxed in and would have been if I hadn't chased after some ignorant *** who had just left his car in the middle of the only way out.


We noticed that there were an awful lot of advertising hoardings along the A7 that made it look like some parts of Florida - we were glad to get back to our [almost] unspoilt mountains.


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## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> Donna who? and who are all these other pop people you are talking about - I was once mistaken for someone on Anglia television back in the 70s but they couldn't remember his name and nor could I.
> 
> :focus:
> 
> CdeS - we went down there on Friday to Fuengirola (the place that most Brits mispronounce) because we wanted to get some shopping that is only available in a Brit shop (Iceland) - Flora Light, plain chocolate digestives, smoked haddock, gammon steaks, etc. As a "treat" we also decided to go for our first chish and fips in over three years - not very good - the fish was about as thick as a cigarette paper with the batter about four times as thick, since it had been frozen, the batter was lovely and crisp on the outside but un[der]-cooked and sludgy next to the fish. The chips were quite good - not those thin stringy things.
> 
> NOTE: If you find that on-street parking is pretty much all taken up and then you find a large open area being used for parking that is almost empty - BEWARE especially if it is a Friday and next to a mosque. We got back to the car to find ourselves almost boxed in and would have been if I hadn't chased after some ignorant *** who had just left his car in the middle of the only way out.
> 
> 
> We noticed that there were an awful lot of advertising hoardings along the A7 that made it look like some parts of Florida - we were glad to get back to our [almost] unspoilt mountains.



You have underlined my point, Baldy, which is that parts of the CdS are typical of seaside resorts everywhere...like Fuengi...and parts which are not.

I have only really been through Torremolinos and Mijas, only go to Fuengi if there is something worth seeing at the theatre there..( or not worth seeing but we go out of loyalty to a friend who directs plays there) because I don't like those sorts of places.

I'm getting to be really fond of Estepona, it's so quiet and unpretentious. If I had to compare it to anywhere I'd say Swanage in the 1950s. It hasn't got a fish and chip shop, though...wish it had. I miss fish'n'chips.

Agree with you about the hoardings, especially from Malaga to Marbella. Currently we have one large one put there by the Ayto advising us not to let our dogs foul pavements...'tu ciudad, tu casa'...

Preferable to the large portrait of Rajoy that occupied that space until a couple of months ago.

North London Derby in a couple o0f hours....Spurs v Arsenal.

Come on you Spurs!!!:clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2:


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## Lui DeAguiar

Hi Costa del Sol

I am just new here on this site, I am very glad I have found it though.
My wife and I are both looking forward to move to costa del sol with our wee baby (7 months old ) we don't know where exactly we would like to be yet but we have been looking for places in cabopino, calahonda and riviera del sol.

It's great to hear your opinions about the place, and if anyone have any advises on living around this area and bringing up children over there I would love to hear it.

Thanks 

Lui


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## jojo

Lui DeAguiar said:


> Hi Costa del Sol
> 
> I am just new here on this site, I am very glad I have found it though.
> My wife and I are both looking forward to move to costa del sol with our wee baby (7 months old ) we don't know where exactly we would like to be yet but we have been looking for places in cabopino, calahonda and riviera del sol.
> 
> It's great to hear your opinions about the place, and if anyone have any advises on living around this area and bringing up children over there I would love to hear it.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Lui


Hi and welcome to the forum. the first thing I would say is that unless you have a liveable income or contracted employment, dont come over. Apart from that, Calahonda is ok, but you need to visit a few times, to do some fact finding to see where would suit you

Jo xxx


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## Lui DeAguiar

jojo said:


> Hi and welcome to the forum. the first thing I would say is that unless you have a liveable income or contracted employment, dont come over. Apart from that, Calahonda is ok, but you need to visit a few times, to do some fact finding to see where would suit you
> 
> Jo xxx


I am a offshore worker Jojo, so it doesn't really matter where I live in Europe, but I would like to know that my wife and son are in a safe location. 

I can't stand being here in hamburg any more, the weather bothers me a lot. So I think I will be renting somewhere around there until I find the right place to buy, do think calahonda is a safe area?


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## jojo

Lui DeAguiar said:


> I am a offshore worker Jojo, so it doesn't really matter where I live in Europe, but I would like to know that my wife and son are in a safe location.
> 
> I can't stand being here in hamburg any more, the weather bothers me a lot. So I think I will be renting somewhere around there until I find the right place to buy, do think calahonda is a safe area?



Yes, Calahonda is certainly, IMO safer than the Riviera. If you're going to be commuting, is it better to be close to an airport???? Malaga's a good one, also we found that the trains from the airport were good, frequent and cheap, which meant I didnt have to do that drive. Thats why we chose Torremuelle, near Benalmadena. But the train goes as far as Fuengirola. That said, it may not be as important to you??

Jo xxx


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