# bank recommendations?



## agranderandonnee

hello forum! Nice to meet you!

I was wondering, does anybody have a recommendation for a basic bog-standard bank account here in Portugal?

I'm from the UK before so setting up a euro-account has been on my to-do list, but from what I've seen most banks want to charge a 5/6 euro monthly fee for holding an account with them. 

I'm not a fan of banks. I like to use them as little as possible. And in my thinking, paying a bank so I can lend them my money, thats a kind of negative-interest rate shenanigans I'd rather not encourage!

If anybody can recommend a fee-free way to bank, any pointers would be most gratefully received.

Thank you and best wishes to all.


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## RichardHenshall

Activobank and BancoCTT are two options.


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## agranderandonnee

thank you thank you! I was finding my way around the forum and found one of those two already recommended; I will have a good look into them both. Very much appreciated! Have a great evening!


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## JohnBoy

agranderandonnee said:


> thank you thank you! I was finding my way around the forum and found one of those two already recommended; I will have a good look into them both. Very much appreciated! Have a great evening!


Another vote for Activo. You can open an account online now, it's 99% free with a great system for transferring funds from your UK bank free of charge and at the best exchange rate going.


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## portugaldreaming

is Activo's online facility in English, both on the outside and when you log into your account?


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## JohnBoy

portugaldreaming said:


> is Activo's online facility in English, both on the outside and when you log into your account?


Yes and yes. The only documents not in English a the legal ones. Day to day operation of your account will not present a problem to English only speakers.

Open the website using this link will take you straight to the English pages. Also, there is always the 'EN' button on the top right hand corner of the page.


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## portugaldreaming

thanks, I notice that it is a subdivision of Millenium where I just opened an account and who charge 8 euros a month. I take it that this one is a no frills version with less fees?


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## JohnBoy

portugaldreaming said:


> thanks, I notice that it is a subdivision of Millenium where I just opened an account and who charge 8 euros a month. I take it that this one is a no frills version with less fees?


Actually 99% no fees. The only item I have ever been charged for was paying in a cheque in Euros, but drawn on a non-Portuguese bank. You will also be charged if you transfer money out of Portugal. 

For free you will receive:

Day to day operation of your account in branch (but there aren't many), by telephone and online.
A debit card
A credit card if you want one
A card for making purchases on the Internet. 
Full access to the Multi Banco network of cash machines.

In other words, everything that you get at Millennium without the fees.

It is worth noting that in an emergency you can pop into MIllennium if you need to.


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## RichardHenshall

JohnBoy said:


> ... You will also be charged if you transfer money out of Portugal. ...


Is a SEPA transfer to a Euro account in another country (such as Spain) chargeable or just when there is a currency exchange from say EUR to GBP (such as to the UK)?


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## JohnBoy

RichardHenshall said:


> Is a SEPA transfer to a Euro account in another country (such as Spain) chargeable or just when there is a currency exchange from say EUR to GBP (such as to the UK)?


Sorry Richard but I have no idea. When I made my enquiry it was in relation to transferring funds back to the UK. I'll have a word with my friend at Activo and get back to you re the SEPA transfer.

I have to say I was surprised, and more than a little miffed, that I had to pay to deposit a Euro cheque drawn on an Irish bank. I was under the impression that all Euro transactions were free. 

On a totally separate point and seeing as you mentioned Spain, I was shocked to find that in Spain we are expected to pay upwards of €3.50 to withdraw Euros from an ATM. I have never been charged anywhere in Euro land for using an ATM. Our taxi driver that night though, said that even the Spanish have to pay it if they use a machine from any bank other than their own. I don't know how, but I got around it by using a multi-currency debit card from the UK! That was Revolut and I never travel anywhere without it.


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## ukReturner

JohnBoy said:


> Another vote for Activo. You can open an account online now, it's 99% free with a great system for transferring funds from your UK bank free of charge and at the best exchange rate going.


Could you please say more about the transfer from a UK bank.
I have heard of transfer systems such as SWIFT, CHAPS and a couple of others, though I know nothing about them.
Does the transfer use one of these systems?


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## JohnBoy

ukReturner said:


> Could you please say more about the transfer from a UK bank.
> I have heard of transfer systems such as SWIFT, CHAPS and a couple of others, though I know nothing about them.
> Does the transfer use one of these systems?


If you have a UK bank account, the transfer system is very straightforward. Millennium/Activo have a branch in the UK in the City of London. You simply make a transfer in pounds from your UK bank account to theirs and in the reference field you put your Millennium or Activo account number. Within 48 business hours a credit will be applied to your account in Portugal. I generally find that a transfer ordered before 2pm one day, let's say Monday, will be in my account by first thing Wednesday morning. There is no charge for the service and the exchange rate is the best available at that moment.


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## ukReturner

JohnBoy said:


> If you have a UK bank account, the transfer system is very straightforward. Millennium/Activo have a branch in the UK in the City of London. You simply make a transfer in pounds from your UK bank account to theirs and in the reference field you put your Millennium or Activo account number. Within 48 business hours a credit will be applied to your account in Portugal. I generally find that a transfer ordered before 2pm one day, let's say Monday, will be in my account by first thing Wednesday morning. There is no charge for the service and the exchange rate is the best available at that moment.


Many thanks for this useful information.

I assume that I would contact Activo and they would give the sort code and account number for the UK branch?


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## JohnBoy

ukReturner said:


> Many thanks for this useful information.
> 
> I assume that I would contact Activo and they would give the sort code and account number for the UK branch?


No need. Here you go:

Sort code 60-00-04
Account No. 10013458

Don't forget to put MY Activo account number in the reference field.


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## ukReturner

JohnBoy said:


> No need. Here you go:
> 
> Sort code 60-00-04
> Account No. 10013458
> 
> Don't forget to put MY Activo account number in the reference field.


We think along similar lines 



(Don't know if my smilie worked).


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## ukReturner

JohnBoy said:


> If you have a UK bank account, the transfer system is very straightforward. Millennium/Activo have a branch in the UK in the City of London. You simply make a transfer in pounds from your UK bank account to theirs and in the reference field you put your Millennium or Activo account number. Within 48 business hours a credit will be applied to your account in Portugal. I generally find that a transfer ordered before 2pm one day, let's say Monday, will be in my account by first thing Wednesday morning. There is no charge for the service and the exchange rate is the best available at that moment.


On looking at my ActivoBank documents, there appears to be three account numbers:
NIB IBAN and Conta No

I contacted ActivoBank to find out which I should use to do the transfer,
but after a series of emails I couldn't find anyone who even knew about
the transfer service.
I found the phone number for the Millenium branch in London ( 020 7489 4800 )
and gave them a call.
The person I spoke to seemed flustered and put me on hold for 10 minutes, to talk to ActivoBank.
A few minutes after he got back to me, I found out I wasn't talking to the London branch - at the 
start of the call, and without my knowledge, I'd been transferred to a call centre in Portugal.

Can anyone who uses this service please let me know which account number should be used as the reference number?


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## JohnBoy

ukReturner said:


> On looking at my ActivoBank documents, there appears to be three account numbers:
> NIB IBAN and Conta No
> 
> I contacted ActivoBank to find out which I should use to do the transfer,
> but after a series of emails I couldn't find anyone who even knew about
> the transfer service.
> I found the phone number for the Millenium branch in London ( 020 7489 4800 )
> and gave them a call.
> The person I spoke to seemed flustered and put me on hold for 10 minutes, to talk to ActivoBank.
> A few minutes after he got back to me, I found out I wasn't talking to the London branch - at the
> start of the call, and without my knowledge, I'd been transferred to a call centre in Portugal.
> 
> Can anyone who uses this service please let me know which account number should be used as the reference number?


Hi ukReturner. First off all my apologies for the delay in replying. I'm traveling and only have irregular and erratic WiFi connection. I will give you a full answer on Monday when I'm back in the real world! 

Have a good weekend.


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## ukReturner

JohnBoy said:


> Hi ukReturner. First off all my apologies for the delay in replying. I'm traveling and only have irregular and erratic WiFi connection. I will give you a full answer on Monday when I'm back in the real world!
> 
> Have a good weekend.


Thanks for your efforts.
Enjoy the rest of your trip.


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## JohnBoy

Hi ukReturner. The number that you need is the Conta number that you referred to. It may start with five zeros and will then be followed by 11 digits. Those are the same eleven digits that form the third number on your NIB and you will also see the same eleven towards the end of your IBAN, split into three groups of four and followed by a single check digit.

Those eleven digits form your account number (drop any leading zeros) that should be quoted in the reference field when making your transfer.


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## ukReturner

JohnBoy said:


> Hi ukReturner. The number that you need is the Conta number that you referred to. It may start with five zeros and will then be followed by 11 digits. Those are the same eleven digits that form the third number on your NIB and you will also see the same eleven towards the end of your IBAN, split into three groups of four and followed by a single check digit.
> 
> Those eleven digits form your account number (drop any leading zeros) that should be quoted in the reference field when making your transfer.



Many thanks, JohnBoy.
I'll do a test transfer today.


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## JohnBoy

ukReturner said:


> Many thanks, JohnBoy.
> I'll do a test transfer today.


Depending what time you put it through, it should hit your account here by Thursday. The cut off is 2 p.m.


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## ukReturner

JohnBoy said:


> Depending what time you put it through, it should hit your account here by Thursday. The cut off is 2 p.m.


Many thanks JohnBoy, the transfer came through faster than expected.

For those interested, I'll give the timings and exchange rate for the transfer:

I sent the money on the afternoon of the 21st; on my account, I see a Launch Date of 22nd and a Value Date of 21st.
I don't know what these dates mean, but it looks like at worst the transfer took place the next day.

The rate was 1.13.

An online search showed that the going rate was about 1.13 to 1.14 on the 21st and 22nd.


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## RichardHenshall

The xe.com iOS app has a compare function which allows you, after the event, to enter the date and time of an exchange transaction to compare what you actually received against what you could have received from a hypothetical zero-cost transfer made at the same time.

It's a neat way of finding the real (possibly hidden) costs, to inform decision making next time.


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## ukReturner

RichardHenshall said:


> The xe.com iOS app has a compare function which allows you, after the event, to enter the date and time of an exchange transaction to compare what you actually received against what you could have received from a hypothetical zero-cost transfer made at the same time.
> 
> It's a neat way of finding the real (possibly hidden) costs, to inform decision making next time.


AFAIK one can't find out the time when a bank transfer takes place.
In fact, as my ActivoBank entry gives two dates, I don't even know what day the transfer took place.

If anyone knows how you can find out more about when a bank transfer takes place, I would be grateful to hear about this.


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## RichardHenshall

ukReturner said:


> AFAIK one can't find out the time when a bank transfer takes place.
> In fact, as my ActivoBank entry gives two dates, I don't even know what day the transfer took place.
> 
> If anyone knows how you can find out more about when a bank transfer takes place, I would be grateful to hear about this.


To my way of thinking, what matters is the time you made the decision (ie pressed the button) to make the transfer. You made the decision then with the information available then (ie the mid-market exchange rate at that time). It was at that moment you could have known exactly what you would have received in Portugal if you had used TransferWise, for example, even if you were only guessing what you would receive through Activobank.

No-one can know what happens later but, with the benefit of hindsight, you can see which would have been the better choice at the time. Repeating the comparison with other transfers will tell a story.


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## ukReturner

RichardHenshall said:


> To my way of thinking, what matters is the time you made the decision (ie pressed the button) to make the transfer. You made the decision then with the information available then (ie the mid-market exchange rate at that time). It was at that moment you could have known exactly what you would have received in Portugal if you had used TransferWise, for example, even if you were only guessing what you would receive through Activobank.


That is a valid point.
I was trying to get a comparison with market rates rather than another method of transfer.

As this was my first ever international transfer, I don't have any experience of the important criteria to look at.


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## RichardHenshall

In your case I would be looking at the costs of transferring your GBP to whoever makes the exchange to EUR, the costs of the exchange and the costs of sending those EUR to your EUR account, the costs of receiving those EUR (if any) and finally any possible costs of spending the EUR if it's in a pre-paid debit card or similar.

For example, if I sent EUR 1,000 to my euro account now using TransferWise and simultaneously sent EUR 1,000 to my GBP account also using TransferWise I would end up with GBP 7.30 less than I started with, which is the combined costs of both transactions, eliminating any exchange rate fluctuations. Both ends are normal high street banks.


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## Weebobsgrampa

we opened an account with santandar totta, whiile we were over, cards and PIN numbers got sorted once we were back in scotland, so we had to phone and activate them, evrything was handled so smoothly, about 6 months later we were back over and went to branch to activate wife online account details, again 15 mins in branch all sorted


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## ukReturner

RichardHenshall said:


> In your case I would be looking at the costs of transferring your GBP to whoever makes the exchange to EUR, the costs of the exchange and the costs of sending those EUR to your EUR account, the costs of receiving those EUR (if any) and finally any possible costs of spending the EUR if it's in a pre-paid debit card or similar.
> 
> For example, if I sent EUR 1,000 to my euro account now using TransferWise and simultaneously sent EUR 1,000 to my GBP account also using TransferWise I would end up with GBP 7.30 less than I started with, which is the combined costs of both transactions, eliminating any exchange rate fluctuations. Both ends are normal high street banks.


Using the Millenium London Branch transfer, the only cost was in the exchange rate.
I got a rate of 1.13 and if I searched correctly, the best rate during the time of the transfer, would have been a little over 1.14.
So that looks pretty good to me.
Is it possible to get a better deal than this?


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## RichardHenshall

ukReturner said:


> Using the Millenium London Branch transfer, the only cost was in the exchange rate.
> I got a rate of 1.13 and if I searched correctly, the best rate during the time of the transfer, would have been a little over 1.14.
> So that looks pretty good to me.
> Is it possible to get a better deal than this?


1.13 vs 1.14 is around 0.87%, so for £1,000 that's £8.70-ish. TransferWise currently charges 0.35% + £0.80 for the first £100,000 and exchanges at the mid-market rate at the time you press the button. Changing £1,000 costs approx £4.30, so to me that's probably better but if you don't recall the mid-market rate at the time you pressed the button nobody can be sure which would have been better.


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## ukReturner

RichardHenshall said:


> 1.13 vs 1.14 is around 0.87%, so for £1,000 that's £8.70-ish. TransferWise currently charges 0.35% + £0.80 for the first £100,000 and exchanges at the mid-market rate at the time you press the button. Changing £1,000 costs approx £4.30, so to me that's probably better but if you don't recall the mid-market rate at the time you pressed the button nobody can be sure which would have been better.


As you can see, I am still a novice at this.
However, the 0.87% figure would be the worst case scenario. It looks like it is impossible to get an absolute figure as you donºt know when the transfer went through, so is what you recommend the next best?.
By mid market rate, do you mean the figure you would get if you search on, say, xe.com?


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## RichardHenshall

The mid-market rate is what xe.com quote in their free information service:



> The rates in our free information services are not transactional rates. Instead, they are mid-market rates derived from the mid-point between the "buy" and "sell" transactional rates from global currency markets. Our free information services always list the mid-market rate because it indicates the value of a currency that is not weighted towards buying or selling. Consumer clients or small to medium sized businesses cannot access these rates.
> 
> Transactional ("Buy" and "sell") rates include overheads and profit margins that are independently set by foreign exchange providers; their rates can vary a lot and will differ from the mid-market rate.



I agree it's hard to directly compare because a major difference is that with TransferWise you know exactly what you will receive at the other end when you start the process, while your bank appears to set the price at an unknown time after you've agreed to buy. I know which I'd prefer.


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## advolex

*SEPA and bank fees*



RichardHenshall said:


> Is a SEPA transfer to a Euro account in another country (such as Spain) chargeable or just when there is a currency exchange from say EUR to GBP (such as to the UK)?


It’s odd that this question is so hard to answer. The answer given to me is that SEPA payments carry no cost according to the EU payments directive. If someone has bourne a cost for such a payment, it’s because the transfer was not considered a SEPA payment, which is only possible within the Monetary Union, and in EUR. For instance, if money is transferred to yourself in the UK then it’s not a payment but a transfer and if the currency were GBP then it would not constitute a SEPA payment. A cost could be incurred by the banks involved, according to the Directive. The service RichardHenshall mentions avoids these costs and transfers are often completely free also between currencies and rates are better. But it’s not a bank, so no state guarantees your deposits to your multi-currency account. I’ve had no problems with them, however.
As I recall, the OP asked about ”basic bog-standard bank account here in PT”. This it is not.


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## ukReturner

RichardHenshall said:


> To my way of thinking, what matters is the time you made the decision (ie pressed the button) to make the transfer. You made the decision then with the information available then (ie the mid-market exchange rate at that time). It was at that moment you could have known exactly what you would have received in Portugal if you had used TransferWise, for example, even if you were only guessing what you would receive through Activobank.


I did as you suggested, and got the following exchange rates:

Mid Market 1.1319 
Millenium 1.1357

So, in this instance, using the Millenium branch transfer was beneficial.

Are there foreign exchange companies that would give you a better rate than Mid Market?


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## RichardHenshall

ukReturner said:


> I did as you suggested, and got the following exchange rates:
> 
> Mid Market 1.1319
> Millenium 1.1357
> 
> So, in this instance, using the Millenium branch transfer was beneficial.
> 
> Are there foreign exchange companies that would give you a better rate than Mid Market?


Assuming this was during last week, you'd have been very unlucky if you'd transacted at that mid-market rate of 1.1319 as it was the low for the week!

It's not really possible, by definition, to trade at better than the mid-market spot rate because as soon as someone does, the mid-market price moves to reflect that trade. You can ask for better that the current mid-market rate but you'll usually only get it if and when the mid-market rate has passed the rate you've requested but that's gambling rather than exchanging.


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## ukReturner

RichardHenshall said:


> Assuming this was during last week, you'd have been very unlucky if you'd transacted at that mid-market rate of 1.1319 as it was the low for the week!
> 
> It's not really possible, by definition, to trade at better than the mid-market spot rate because as soon as someone does, the mid-market price moves to reflect that trade. You can ask for better that the current mid-market rate but you'll usually only get it if and when the mid-market rate has passed the rate you've requested but that's gambling rather than exchanging.


I noticed that I had initiated the transfer when there was a short-lived low in the exchange rate.
These values make me think that the Millenium transfer is done at mid-market rate, and
I benefited from the delay in transfer.
If this is correct, I would expect that, in the long run, half of the Millenium transfers
would be above mid-market rate, and half below.


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## RichardHenshall

ukReturner said:


> I noticed that I had initiated the transfer when there was a short-lived low in the exchange rate.
> These values make me think that the Millenium transfer is done at mid-market rate, and
> I benefited from the delay in transfer.
> If this is correct, I would expect that, in the long run, half of the Millenium transfers
> would be above mid-market rate, and half below.


You certainly benefited on this occasion but whether Millennium uses a mid-market remains unknown. It could be a little worse than mid-market and you have no realistic way to find out.

If it does and there are no other fees, then on average you will do better than TransferWise. However you will never know what rate you are going to get until afterwards.


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## ukReturner

RichardHenshall said:


> You certainly benefited on this occasion but whether Millennium uses a mid-market remains unknown. It could be a little worse than mid-market and you have no realistic way to find out.
> 
> If it does and there are no other fees, then on average you will do better than TransferWise. However you will never know what rate you are going to get until afterwards.


I was thinking along similar lines.
So the Millenium transfer method will be beneficial for me for the time being, as I would not have to register with an exchange company and learn how to use their system.
Maybe in the future, after learning a bit more about International transfers, I could look into using the exchange companies.


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