# Thinking of Moving to France



## dvorahcarrasco

I am a licensed mental health therapist. I have a bachelors and a masters in psychology. I am in private practice and I do 3/4 of my practice on line. Now that the French government is giving its citizens free mental health services I am wondering if I can make a living there. I do plan on increasing my fluency in French but would prefer to stay private. If I were to work I would like to work at a school. Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.


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## ARPC

You’re facing a pretty agressive process to work in your field in France. Your licensing and training are not automatically transferable. You will have to undergo significant training in France, in french, as well as take “board exams” and meet licensing requirements. Private practice medicine doesn’t exist in the same way here as in the US. Here, all healthcare is organized through the public system. This means you have to have the training and licensing and language facility that qualifies you to be a provider in that system, and accept carte vitale public insurance. Even if you wanted to just relocate to France on a longer term visitor permit and work in your current US practice online from here, you would still be required to do all required training and testing for licensure in France. 

If you’re excited about a change of scenery and Europe is attractive, you might consider Iceland, who have a relatively new visa and temporary resident program for foreigners who can earn a living remotely. Or if you are drawn to France, consider coming to France and doing something else. The passport talent might be an option to google. Or an educational program in your field that may get you in line to acquire licensure. 

There’s a reason the stereotype exists of the successful foreign heart surgeon running a restaurant in his new country.


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## Bevdeforges

dvorahcarrasco said:


> Now that the French government is giving its citizens free mental health services I am wondering if I can make a living there.


Not sure where you got that from, but "mental health services" can involve a whole bunch of different things, delivered by certain specifically qualified practitioners. (And nothing in France is actually completely free in the health care system - but that's another story.)

There might be a possibility in the schools, but I would look to the private schools (especially those offering the International Bac program). I know someone down south who jumped through all the hoops to qualify as a "clinical psychologist" and then was able to get a job in a private school in the Nice area - something like a guidance counselor. This was a LONG time ago and I have lost contact with the guy so don't really have any more details. However, he was raised in a French family in the US and spoke pretty close to fluent French when he got here.

You may want to try researching and contacting the private schools that teach mostly in English (usually drawing their students from the American and British expat communities) to see what they can suggest.


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## 255

@dvorahcarrasco -- We've had quite a few threads recently for folks that want to work in France on-line, by obtaining a Passport Talent visa/residency permit. There are quite a few options: International talents | France-Visas.gouv.fr . Since, your work is 75% on-line anyway, you could maintain most of your current income without much change.

As @ARPC & @Bevdeforges stated you will have to have your current U.S. credentials translated, reviewed and accepted by the appropriate licensing authority in France. Of course you will need to achieve a certain level of French fluency (proved by testing.) Depending on the results of your credential review, you may need additional course work and/or testing. This is pretty much the standard when changing countries for any profession, including in the U.S. & Canada.

Even through only a Masters is required, for your field -- there is also the option of coming to France for your doctorate/post doc. Schooling is an incredible bargain in Europe in general (compared to the U.S.) and there are quite a few universities that operate doctorial programs in Psychology in France. This would allow you to continue working on-line, while getting additional credentials while maintaining most of your current income. You would improve your French and navigate any licensing requirements (with the benefit of guidance from your university.) Also, you will qualify for citizenship early (2 years residence vice 5) when you graduate and bolster your current practice in France or obtain a new position in your field. 

As far as getting a job at private English speaking school, there are job fairs, throughout the U.S., usually conducted in February or March, annually. These fairs are aimed towards teachers, but hire the gambit. Alternatively, you can just check the web-sites for schools you might be interested. These often have "off-cycle" vacancies. My view is that these jobs are sought after and once in one of these positions, the incumbent will generally try to stay unless a "life event" changes their situation. 

I do think you can make a living. Good luck. Cheers, 255


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## dvorahcarrasco

Thank you for all the helpful information. I am wondering if I can work with only expats in person and on like if I need to jump through all the French hoops. I want to do spiritual artistic retreats as well, again hoping to avoid the hoops. I do have my masters degree and business here in the states.


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## 255

@dvorahcarrasco -- "Psychologist" is a legally and protected title in the EU (including France,) and requires licensure. Therefore to work with anyone in France, expat or not, you'd still have "hoops" to jump through. Unless you settled in an "expat haven," I suspect the expat population alone wouldn't allow you to "make a living in France."

I have personally submitted credential reviews for myself and others in various fields (not Psychology,) but gathering documents, and putting forth a dossier is de rigor for many things in France. You'll need to get used to that if you move to France. I have not found it that hard to do and I've prepared these in multiple countries and in languages I didn't speak. . My guess, is the most difficult requirement will be to learn French -- but make it a priority and I'm sure you can achieve the requisite level. You appear to already meet the basic credential for licensing requirements and once licensed your done. There are no continuing education or revalidation requirements to practice Psychology, in France. 

You'll also need to pass a French exam before submitting any long term residence or citizenship applications, down the road.

Both your mental health therapy practice and your "spiritual artistic retreats" will also require some form of French business entity. Cheers, 255


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## Bevdeforges

Just to add a little to what 255 has already told you, titles here in France are a big deal. Use of the term "therapist" ("therapeut" in French) is also pretty restricted, too, in quite a few more contexts than you may imagine. I suppose it's because of the usual association of the term with psychology or (to a lesser extent here) the medical professions. 

When establishing a business entity of any sort, you do need to declare an APE (activité principale exercée), which is basically a numerical code that designates what it is your business does. Which APE you select determines to a certain extent a number of administrative functions, including which specific agencies your business has to deal with for social insurances, industry contracts and conditions and certain reporting functions and taxes.


dvorahcarrasco said:


> I am wondering if I can work with only expats in person and on like if I need to jump through all the French hoops.


Basically it's going to be very difficult to make a go of things working only with expats here in France. (Especially if you're thinking of only English-speaking expats.) The expat "community" in France is extremely diverse and tends to be scattered all over the place. In fact, to a certain extent "community" is considered a bad word here because it implies that people keep to their own kind and are not interacting with the French nation as a whole. (You hear people here speak about "anti-communitarianist" legislation, which is usually targeted at breaking up enclaves of foreigners not making proper attempts to integrate with French values and customs.) OTOH, there is also a wide variety of "expats" - some of whom are trying to blend in with the local population, while others are seeking out their own kind (if only defined as English-speaking folks). 

As to jumping through all the French hoops - get used to it. It's a big part of your "integration" process here. Sure, the French are known for cutting corners where they can, but they resent it when a "foreigner" cuts corners - usually because they simply don't know which corners are considered important. 

Spiritual artistic retreats are fine, but may be considered more a part of the "tourist industry" than anything "therapeutic" and the term "spiritual" is always a bit touchy here due to the French insistence on "laïcité" and the particular definition the French attach to this.

Nothing here is meant to put you off, but you would do best to learn some French and maybe spend a bit more time here (as a tourist, or a student or possibly working here if you can) before you launch yourself out on your own.


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## Poloss

As mentioned above, to exercise as a psychologist, you'll need to have your US diplomas certified (called "équivalence")

Official page here: Psychologue : une profession réglementée en France

*Exercer la profession de psychologue en France pour les détenteurs de diplômes étrangers*
_L’accès au titre de psychologue étant réglementé en France, les diplômés en psychologie qui peuvent justifier de* trois années au moins d’études* en psychologie peuvent *soumettre une demande de reconnaissance à la commission consultative* chargée d’émettre un avis sur l’octroi du droit à faire usage du titre de psychologue_. Cette commission se prononce après examen d’un dossier constitué par le candidat et transmis au ministère de l’enseignement supérieur et de la recherche. 
*Practicing the profession of psychologist in France for holders of foreign diplomas*
= "_As access to the title of psychologist is regulated in France, psychology graduates who can show proof of *at least three years of study *in psychology *may submit an application for recognition to the advisory commission* responsible for issuing an opinion on the granting of the right to use the title of psychologist._"

La procédure de transmission des dossiers est *dématérialisée.* Les titulaires de diplômes étrangers dans le domaine de la psychologie, doivent :

Remplir électroniquement le formulaire ci-dessous puis le numériser et l'envoyer par courriel à l'adresse : [email protected]
*FORM link*: https://www.enseignementsup-recherc...n/document/FORMULAIRE_PSYCHOLOGUE_1341076.rtf
 
= The procedure for the transmission of applications is *dematerialised*. Holders of foreign diplomas in the field of psychology must fill out the form below electronically, then scan it and send it by email to :

As for finding work in psy in France if you're non-freelance: 
"_The professional insertion of psychologists is not obvious on the job market. Job offers are far lower than the constantly changing demand. However, there are significant geographical disparities across the country. Some job offers are not filled in remote or less attractive areas. On the other hand, the growing social needs of the population offer interesting future prospects for future graduates. The aging of the French population opens up opportunities for psychologists in gerontology. Conversely, clinical psychology is a specialty where hiring solutions are almost non-existent_." - gross monthly salary for a beginner = 1600€
from - Fiche Métier : Psychologue

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)


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## dvorahcarrasco

Bevdeforges said:


> Just to add a little to what 255 has already told you, titles here in France are a big deal. Use of the term "therapist" ("therapeut" in French) is also pretty restricted, too, in quite a few more contexts than you may imagine. I suppose it's because of the usual association of the term with psychology or (to a lesser extent here) the medical professions.
> 
> When establishing a business entity of any sort, you do need to declare an APE (activité principale exercée), which is basically a numerical code that designates what it is your business does. Which APE you select determines to a certain extent a number of administrative functions, including which specific agencies your business has to deal with for social insurances, industry contracts and conditions and certain reporting functions and taxes.
> 
> Basically it's going to be very difficult to make a go of things working only with expats here in France. (Especially if you're thinking of only English-speaking expats.) The expat "community" in France is extremely diverse and tends to be scattered all over the place. In fact, to a certain extent "community" is considered a bad word here because it implies that people keep to their own kind and are not interacting with the French nation as a whole. (You hear people here speak about "anti-communitarianist" legislation, which is usually targeted at breaking up enclaves of foreigners not making proper attempts to integrate with French values and customs.) OTOH, there is also a wide variety of "expats" - some of whom are trying to blend in with the local population, while others are seeking out their own kind (if only defined as English-speaking folks).
> 
> As to jumping through all the French hoops - get used to it. It's a big part of your "integration" process here. Sure, the French are known for cutting corners where they can, but they resent it when a "foreigner" cuts corners - usually because they simply don't know which corners are considered important.
> 
> Spiritual artistic retreats are fine, but may be considered more a part of the "tourist industry" than anything "therapeutic" and the term "spiritual" is always a bit touchy here due to the French insistence on "laïcité" and the particular definition the French attach to this.
> 
> Nothing here is meant to put you off, but you would do best to learn some French and maybe spend a bit more time here (as a tourist, or a student or possibly working here if you can) before you launch yourself out on your own.


Thank you. Good information.


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## dvorahcarrasco

Bevdeforges said:


> Just to add a little to what 255 has already told you, titles here in France are a big deal. Use of the term "therapist" ("therapeut" in French) is also pretty restricted, too, in quite a few more contexts than you may imagine. I suppose it's because of the usual association of the term with psychology or (to a lesser extent here) the medical professions.
> 
> When establishing a business entity of any sort, you do need to declare an APE (activité principale exercée), which is basically a numerical code that designates what it is your business does. Which APE you select determines to a certain extent a number of administrative functions, including which specific agencies your business has to deal with for social insurances, industry contracts and conditions and certain reporting functions and taxes.
> 
> Basically it's going to be very difficult to make a go of things working only with expats here in France. (Especially if you're thinking of only English-speaking expats.) The expat "community" in France is extremely diverse and tends to be scattered all over the place. In fact, to a certain extent "community" is considered a bad word here because it implies that people keep to their own kind and are not interacting with the French nation as a whole. (You hear people here speak about "anti-communitarianist" legislation, which is usually targeted at breaking up enclaves of foreigners not making proper attempts to integrate with French values and customs.) OTOH, there is also a wide variety of "expats" - some of whom are trying to blend in with the local population, while others are seeking out their own kind (if only defined as English-speaking folks).
> 
> As to jumping through all the French hoops - get used to it. It's a big part of your "integration" process here. Sure, the French are known for cutting corners where they can, but they resent it when a "foreigner" cuts corners - usually because they simply don't know which corners are considered important.
> 
> Spiritual artistic retreats are fine, but may be considered more a part of the "tourist industry" than anything "therapeutic" and the term "spiritual" is always a bit touchy here due to the French insistence on "laïcité" and the particular definition the French attach to this.
> 
> Nothing here is meant to put you off, but you would do best to learn some French and maybe spend a bit more time here (as a tourist, or a student or possibly working here if you can) before you launch yourself out on your own.


Thank you.


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## jweihl

dvorahcarrasco said:


> Thank you for all the helpful information. I am wondering if I can work with only expats in person and on like if I need to jump through all the French hoops. I want to do spiritual artistic retreats as well, again hoping to avoid the hoops. I do have my masters degree and business here in the states.


There is no such thing as moving to France and avoiding the hoops. In France, you avoid when you can, but more will find you. You just have to embrace them.


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## ARPC

dvorahcarrasco said:


> Thank you for all the helpful information. I am wondering if I can work with only expats in person and on like if I need to jump through all the French hoops. I want to do spiritual artistic retreats as well, again hoping to avoid the hoops. I do have my masters degree and business here in the states.


It sounds like you need to come to france as a 90 day visitor and just see what it is like, and if you must, continue to see your clients online (totally clandestine and not legal but you would certainly not be the first or only american to work online from a gîte on their vacation). I have a sense from this statement that you are clinging to a concept in mind of how you see this working, and that whatever you learn from us or elsewhere is not going to convince you that it doesn’t correspond to the reality of immigrating and working in another country, especially this one. If you find after three months that you love it here enough to do the next round of required work to live here and work in your field, you’ll be able to go from there. 

I know a number of French people who are in the healing arts and professions and do “spiritual retreats” around the region. I also know a lot of American people who do this type of work in the US, or who lead international retreats in places like Bali or Morocco. I cannot overstate how much more official you have to be to do it in France, even as a french person. The different types of license and training and professional registration are significantly more intense than anything I’ve seen in the United States. It really isn’t the culture of professional entrepreneurship and small business that we are accustomed to, and nobody cheats. 

Best of luck.


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## dvorahcarrasco

ARPC said:


> It sounds like you need to come to france as a 90 day visitor and just see what it is like, and if you must, continue to see your clients online (totally clandestine and not legal but you would certainly not be the first or only american to work online from a gîte on their vacation). I have a sense from this statement that you are clinging to a concept in mind of how you see this working, and that whatever you learn from us or elsewhere is not going to convince you that it doesn’t correspond to the reality of immigrating and working in another country, especially this one. If you find after three months that you love it here enough to do the next round of required work to live here and work in your field, you’ll be able to go from there.
> 
> I know a number of French people who are in the healing arts and professions and do “spiritual retreats” around the region. I also know a lot of American people who do this type of work in the US, or who lead international retreats in places like Bali or Morocco. I cannot overstate how much more official you have to be to do it in France, even as a french person. The different types of license and training and professional registration are significantly more intense than anything I’ve seen in the United States. It really isn’t the culture of professional entrepreneurship and small business that we are accustomed to, and nobody cheats.
> 
> Best of luck.


Great advice. Thank you.


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