# An overview of the spanish economy



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

I'm not sure this is an accurate picture for a lot of expats, its still better here than the uk imo. But if you're thinking of coming to Spain and hoping to find work then have a read
_
For years, it has been a staple of daytime television, alongside the inane chat, creaky old movies and decorating do's and don'ts - the “let's-go-live-in-the-sun” show, in which Stoke and Stoke Newington are swapped for, much more often than not, Spain.

But now it has an evil twin. You may have seen it. The we're-not-celebrities-but-please-get-us-out-of-here show, in which the dream has gone horribly wrong. And it is symptomatic of the wider malaise that has gripped what was once a land of boom and money. _



http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/economics/article5295565.ece


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## MartinJames (Dec 20, 2009)

*The Spanish housing market 2010*



jojo said:


> > _I'm not sure this is an accurate picture for a lot of expats, its still better here than the uk imo. But if you're thinking of coming to Spain and hoping to find work then have a read_
> 
> 
> _
> ...


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

mytravelphotoblog said:


> Hi All, I am looking at buying in Spain.
> 
> Hi - you've posted the same thing twice - we are looking!
> And I am doing my research, with the Spanish housing market. I wish to buy a home for retirement. (Buy to live in not as investment!)
> ...


Welcome to the forum by the way!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

mytravelphotoblog said:


> jojo said:
> 
> 
> > _
> ...


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## MartinJames (Dec 20, 2009)

Tallulah said:


> Welcome to the forum by the way!


Hi – I did post the same thing twice. 

_



What area are you thinking of moving to? You're in a better situation than others as you will be retiring. Will you be selling your UK property?

Click to expand...

_I am looking at moving to Catalonia, inland from Gerona. No I wont be selling my UK Property, I have down sized. 



> _I would disagree on your comment on how the Spanish do business - there are clear cut legal guidelines. I think you are perhaps misguided with what is in the press at present. There are clear do's and don't's in these situations - it's not a minefield. Also, please be aware that one thing is not having regional government licencing and registration of property - another thing is expropriation. Flying to Spain is still fairly cheap._


Is what you see on the UK TV. But there is never good news!!!!!!

Thanks for the info


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## MartinJames (Dec 20, 2009)

> _I suspect it might be marginally cheaper - but not much
> 
> it's tough for those of us who have to work, and certainly not as easy as it was for those with UK pensions - I personally know some in both category who have returned to the UK for financial reasons
> 
> ...


Like a lot of people in the UK and Spain. Pensions have become unreliable. I am looking at renting my home in the UK. As my Pension. But with the strong Euro, I am just working out the balance. And any other short falls. 

Yes it is tougher every where. In the UK the housing prices have stayed high, because there is a shortage of housing. 

After speaking with Spanish friends here in the UK. Telling me unemployment is rising. It is all having a negative effect. As in the UK is waiting for things to bottom out. Before things start to show signs of recovery


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## NorthernLass (Nov 9, 2009)

I have been here for almost two years.

I would say in my experience that shopping is not as cheap as the UK. Maybe not in the way of groceries but then you need to shop locally and at cheaper supermarkets. Carrefour and Corte Ingles are more pricy for items as it is more upmarket compared to Dia or Mercadona.

But clothes, toys, books are more so much more expensive than the UK. Children's clothes especially are pricy and I have four kiddies and often I order items to my mother in laws and she brings them over for me when she visits.

Now eating out is cheaper (if you can afford to eat out anyway), having a coffee at a cafe is cheap - around 1 euro. Electricity is about as expensive as the UK. Council tax is less expensive than the UK.

The two years we have been here, the exchange rate has dramatically changed our spending power. 

House prices are higher than I expected. I live in the North of Spain and a 2bed flat of say 90sqm is around 180.000 euros !! How the spanish afford them I don't know. I was told that 3 years ago, the Spanish people, after seeing the property rising, panic bought so they could get on the ladder. It's similar to the UK really. There are cheap properties to be bought in the costas where supply outstrips demand, built as holiday homes. Buying one of the holiday homes would not suit permanent living especially for retirees. They are often out in the sticks with no local amenties and very cold in the winter in my opinion.

I too would like to retire in Spain (although I am a long way off), but planning and researching the area is paramount. I would prefer an established town or village which the chances of land grab is low. 

Spain is a great place to retire to. If you don't have to work and can enjoy your days pottering about in the sun, its fantastic. But working (as we do) it's tough. 

Good luck with your planning and research.


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## Rofa (Dec 3, 2009)

mytravelphotoblog said:


> Like a lot of people in the UK and Spain. Pensions have become unreliable. I am looking at renting my home in the UK. As my Pension. But with the strong Euro, I am just working out the balance. And any other short falls.
> 
> Yes it is tougher every where. In the UK the housing prices have stayed high, because there is a shortage of housing.
> 
> After speaking with Spanish friends here in the UK. Telling me unemployment is rising. It is all having a negative effect. As in the UK is waiting for things to bottom out. Before things start to show signs of recovery


If you have the cash, the time to look, and know all the pifalls then there are house bargains to be had. Friends of mine, desperate to get back to the UK, dropped their price 50% and sold, not surprisingly, very quickly.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Rofa said:


> If you have the cash, the time to look, and know all the pifalls then there are house bargains to be had. Friends of mine, desperate to get back to the UK, dropped their price 50% and sold, not surprisingly, very quickly.



But some say the prices are still dropping and by significan ammounts?? However, whether or not you're looking for a bargain, you really need to rent first so that you can be sure its right for you. I'm so glad I did, cos what I thought I wanted when I was looking from the UK, is absolutely NOT what I need and want now I live here!!

As for Spain being different from 5 years ago, well I dont know cos I've only been here for two years, but since I arrived, the cost of living has gone up - its not far short of the UK now and the exchange rate has gone down (I get my money thru sterling) I love living here tho and at the end of the day, its not about money, its about life!

Jo xxx


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

mytravelphotoblog said:


> ... you just can’t trust the way the Spanish do business.


imo - they're perfectly fine - Occasionally frustrating - but honest.

As has already been said there are VERY fixed rules. But - and here is the important bit - THEY'RE SPANISH RULES - if you expect English(or whatever rules) you are already making a BIG mistake. 

Too many expats took "advantage" of what they saw as a relaxed friendly attitude and thought they're onto a winner - Low price - no tax, no lawyer etc etc . Now as the world clamps down on everything to get ALL the revenue they can - many expats are discovering they made unsound investments. 

If you do not use a NOTARIO you are probably in a private contract - which is not a binding PUBLIC document. If the seller wont go via notario - well..........

Spain is part of the EUROZONE - And the Euro is strong at the mo'. For those of us earning in Euros - good news. It is well publicised that Spain will take a good 18 months more to pull out of the recession than most of Europe.


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## MartinJames (Dec 20, 2009)

NorthernLass said:


> I have been here for almost two years.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## NorthernLass (Nov 9, 2009)

You need to know the rules. That means knowing how to speak Spanish. If you can speak spanish, you'll be better off.

The problems many expats face is that they do not understand the laws or the procedures. They had to trust "someone" which has now left them high and dry.

Having forums like this is good because they can help with knowing what's what.

I am planning on looking for a new property to rent and my spanish teacher is going to come with me. Even he says the estate agents/landlords will try and rip me off (and I also have to think that my spanish teacher may try to, too) 

Trust no-one and learn Spanish.


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## MartinJames (Dec 20, 2009)

*Hablan español!!!!*



NorthernLass said:


> You need to know the rules. That means knowing how to speak Spanish. If you can speak spanish, you'll be better off.
> 
> The problems many expats face is that they do not understand the laws or the procedures. They had to trust "someone" which has now left them high and dry.
> 
> ...


I speak a little Spanish. But I learn when I travel Latin America. Is a little different. But is on the list of things to do. I am like you, is best to learn where you going to live. 

I know the Spanish way is different. They see the Brits as a easy target and with cash. 

Need to understand and speak Spanish. Also is the best way to fit in and meet local people and for business. 

The forum is very helpful place. Thank you for all the info


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

mytravelphotoblog said:


> I speak a little Spanish. But I learn when I travel Latin America. Is a little different. But is on the list of things to do. I am like you, is best to learn where you going to live.
> 
> I know the Spanish way is different. They see the Brits as a easy target and with cash.
> 
> ...



I would say that its the Brits who see the new Brits as an easy target!! 


Jo xxx


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

mytravelphotoblog said:


> I speak a little Spanish. But I learn when I travel Latin America. Is a little different. But is on the list of things to do. I am like you, is best to learn where you going to live.
> 
> I know the Spanish way is different. They see the Brits as a easy target and with cash.
> 
> ...


possibly some have in the past - but certainly not all, and less so now


I had a prospective landlord increase the rent on his property by 100 euros a month when we met & he realised that I am english - originally we had discussed the price on the phone & in spanish


I think the realisation is now setting in though, that Brits don't have tons of money any more


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## bakeja (May 26, 2009)

Just a quick point on the Spain versus UK debate: for most people the crucial point isn't weather, education, lifestyle, housing or prices but actually making a living. For people with a steady and secure income the recession has actually improved things in both countries, except for people living on fixed sterling incomes in Spain. If you are struggling then it's hard going in either country but I guess if you are really suffering you're better off in the UK where your rights to benefits are more secure and employment prospects marginally brighter. If you've got no money worries, then I would chose Spain every time.


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## MartinJames (Dec 20, 2009)

*Thanks for your replys*



bakeja said:


> Just a quick point on the Spain versus UK debate: for most people the crucial point isn't weather, education, lifestyle, housing or prices but actually making a living. For people with a steady and secure income the recession has actually improved things in both countries, except for people living on fixed sterling incomes in Spain. If you are struggling then it's hard going in either country but I guess if you are really suffering you're better off in the UK where your rights to benefits are more secure and employment prospects marginally brighter. If you've got no money worries, then I would chose Spain every time.


Thanks for your positive reply! And thank you for all your replys and input. 

I just wondering. Is anybody actually working at the mo with all the quick replies in such a short time


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

bakeja said:


> Just a quick point on the Spain versus UK debate: for most people the crucial point isn't weather, education, lifestyle, housing or prices but actually making a living. For people with a steady and secure income the recession has actually improved things in both countries, except for people living on fixed sterling incomes in Spain. If you are struggling then it's hard going in either country but I guess if you are really suffering you're better off in the UK where your rights to benefits are more secure and employment prospects marginally brighter. If you've got no money worries, then I would chose Spain every time.


That says it all in a nutshell!!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

mytravelphotoblog said:


> Thanks for your positive reply! And thank you for all your replys and input.
> 
> I just wondering. Is anybody actually working at the mo with all the quick replies in such a short time


I am posting this on my laptop lying in bed with a cup of coffee as it's p*****g with rain. Even the dog won't go out for a surely much-needed pee.
But I'm going to have to shift myself as I have a hair appointment this p.m....


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mytravelphotoblog said:


> Thanks for your positive reply! And thank you for all your replys and input.
> 
> I just wondering. Is anybody actually working at the mo with all the quick replies in such a short time


To answer your last question first - no I'm not working today because I'm snowbound!! Well, I could possibly go now, but by the time i got there it'd be time to turn back, so it's a forum day!!

You've had lots of advice to think about and I'd just like to reiterate a couple of things. 
Doing business with Spaniards - For me it's doing business with non English speakers and outside the UK. It could be anywhere in the world. You need to be cautious, you might not understand the steps you have to go through because the steps are different to the ones in the UK - not because someone's trying to rip you off. Something might not get done because you didn't know it was your responsibility because it's different to the UK - not because someone's pulling the wool over your eyes. You might not understand because you're dealing with different terminology than that of the UK - not because someone's lying to you. Get the idea??!! Oh and on top of all that, someone might be trying to rip you off, lie or pull the wool over your eyes. Personally I wouldn't try to buy a house in the UK without lawyers or advisors that I thought were trustworthy and here the only reason that I bought a house was because my OH is Spanish.
Come here well prepared, well supported and with an open mind is my advice


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

mytravelphotoblog said:


> Thanks for your positive reply! And thank you for all your replys and input.
> 
> I just wondering. Is anybody actually working at the mo with all the quick replies in such a short time


No, cant get a job as my spanish isnt good enough and my children need taking and picking up from school at just the wrong times. My husaband works tho............ in the UK, he commutes!!

Jo xx


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## NorthernLass (Nov 9, 2009)

....and I am a Stay at Home mom...slightly bored during the school hours....

My husband works here in IT.

I do a bit of English teaching in the evening twice a week though...


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jojo said:


> I would say that its the Brits who see the new Brits as an easy target!!
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


you got that right


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## Hombre (Sep 10, 2009)

mytravelphotoblog said:


> NorthernLass said:
> 
> 
> > I have been here for almost two years.
> ...


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

mytravelphotoblog said:


> Thanks for your positive reply! And thank you for all your replys and input.
> 
> I just wondering. Is anybody actually working at the mo with all the quick replies in such a short time


I worked in a language school until it went bust


now I teach privately - I'm pretty much as busy as I want to be

right now I'm taking a break for christmas until after 3 kings

which is the longest break I have taken in about 2.5 years!!!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Hombre said:


> mytravelphotoblog said:
> 
> 
> > You know...you can keep dipping your toes in the water and asking.."is it cold ?".."is it hot "?.."will it hurt me ?"...but , in the end, you have to make "your" .decision". If you feel it is for you then do it. If not, don't.
> ...


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## MartinJames (Dec 20, 2009)

Originally Posted by mytravelphotoblog 

You know...you can keep dipping your toes in the water and asking.."is it cold ?".."is it hot "?.."will it hurt me ?"...but , in the end, you have to make "your" .decision". If you feel it is for you then do it. If not, don't.
Most "emigrees" I know just did it, and to hell with the consequences. There comes a point in life where you have to just "have the balls". It is a one off journey...no return trips.
We came here in 2002 with 2 suitcases...nothing else..and I mean nothing. We rented for 6 months before we bought. Our life in Catalunya is paradise. OK..we are retired and not representative of most people, but...we have an opinion.
We have 2 state pensions and a private pension. Total income has dropped by approx. 30% in the past 18 months, due to the exchange rate...nothing we can do about that. We have worked so bloody hard in our lives that we know what is right and what is wrong. Wild horses would'nt drag us back to the UK. It's not perfect out here, nowhere is. But we cook all our own food..and that is one of our great pleasures. We try to eat "Spanish, ie, Spanish food/recipes. We use local produce...do not shop at supermarkets...do not stock the fridge/freezer a week ahead. We decide todays meals and go out and get the ingredients.
I swear.. My wife is spending the same on housekeeping now as she was 4 years ago. By "housekeeping " I mean food and cleaning materials only. We are still able to go to our "local" most days or nights and mix with the lovely Spanish who have taken us to their hearts. We bless the day we moved to Catalunya. Oh..and as an aside..after watching the whole of Europe engulfed in snow on TV the past few days, we asked.."when does it snow around here ?"...the answer was.."it does'nt ". Apparently, they have'nt had snow here for 20 years.
Sorry, I'm rambling. 
*Sorry the above not Originally Posted by me* :clap2:

Sounds like you have a different life than before And is for the better. What you could not do in the UK. So you cant compare the cost of living in Spain with the UK. Other than you rely on income from the UK 

I already cook Spanish, Caribbean and Latin food here in the UK And is not exspencive. I use the local market and shops, local produce as well as the Supermarkets. Its not usual for me to visit the shops twice in a day. As cooking for many people. Lots of fiestas. Most of my friends here are from all over the world. Have a good mix. My cooking arrangement wont change because I move to Spain! When I visit Spain I am always looking in the markets to see the produce and what I can cook. Please view my videos > 



 And 



The point is it not where you are its the life you make.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Hombre said:


> mytravelphotoblog said:
> 
> 
> > You know...you can keep dipping your toes in the water and asking.."is it cold ?".."is it hot "?.."will it hurt me ?"...but , in the end, you have to make "your" .decision". If you feel it is for you then do it. If not, don't.
> ...


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mytravelphotoblog said:


> Originally Posted by mytravelphotoblog
> 
> My cooking arrangement wont change because I move to Spain! When I visit Spain I am always looking in the markets to see the produce and what I can cook. Please view my videos > Paella And Saltenas
> The point is it not where you are its the life you make.


Looks good to me!

By the way, to "quote" just click on the reply box of the post you want to quote...


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## mike kelly (Aug 12, 2009)

I'm wondering, is there any chance that Spain could leave the Euro? That would be a disaster for people with Euro mortgages and earning in pesetas. I would like to here forum users opinions on this.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mike kelly said:


> I'm wondering, is there any chance that Spain could leave the Euro? That would be a disaster for people with Euro mortgages and earning in pesetas. I would like to here forum users opinions on this.


 Sorry Mike, don't understand the question. Do you mean would Spain leave the EU and start using pesetas again???
I wouldn't think so, sounds like kamikaze to me.
Why do you ask??


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## mike kelly (Aug 12, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Sorry Mike, don't understand the question. Do you mean would Spain leave the EU and start using pesetas again???
> I wouldn't think so, sounds like kamikaze to me.
> Why do you ask??


There is some speculation in the press that due to the current economic crisis Spain (and /or Ireland, Portugal and especially Greece) could leave the euro single currency (but not the EU).
If Spain were to reintroduce the peseta, it would allow Spain to devalue in order to compensate for lower productivity than other eurozone members.
Yes, it would be a drastic step but are things so bad that it could happen? That is what I am wondering.


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## mike kelly (Aug 12, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Sorry Mike, don't understand the question. Do you mean would Spain leave the EU and start using pesetas again???
> I wouldn't think so, sounds like kamikaze to me.
> Why do you ask??


check this out


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

mike kelly said:


> There is some speculation in the press that due to the current economic crisis Spain (and /or Ireland, Portugal and especially Greece) could leave the euro single currency (but not the EU).
> If Spain were to reintroduce the peseta, it would allow Spain to devalue in order to compensate for lower productivity than other eurozone members.
> Yes, it would be a drastic step but are things so bad that it could happen? That is what I am wondering.


I think Spain would probably have to leave the EU as well tho, and the cost of all that would be mind blowing! 

I think we're only just starting to here some of the horrors of the Eurozone - I suspect even the "holier than thou" German economy may unfold a few "nasties"!!!. They all kept very quiet and pious while the UK was airing its dirty washing for all to see!!!! It'll be interesting to see if they put interest rates up in the spring as some predict


Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mike kelly said:


> There is some speculation in the press that due to the current economic crisis Spain (and /or Ireland, Portugal and especially Greece) could leave the euro single currency (but not the EU).
> If Spain were to reintroduce the peseta, it would allow Spain to devalue in order to compensate for lower productivity than other eurozone members.
> Yes, it would be a drastic step but are things so bad that it could happen? That is what I am wondering.


 OH! I had no idea this was being talked about. I would think it extremely unlikely, but then who am I??
The recession here IS very bad, but the Spanish banking system has been widely acknowledged as being "good" and i can't see what would be gained from going back to the peseta.:confused2:
Can you post a link to any articles about this, please??
(Other people on the forum know much more about this than I do, so just wait around...)


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Pesky Wesky said:


> OH! I had no idea this was being talked about. I would think it extremely unlikely, but then who am I??
> The recession here IS very bad, but the Spanish banking system has been widely acknowledged as being "good" and i can't see what would be gained from going back to the peseta.:confused2:
> Can you post a link to any articles about this, please??
> (Other people on the forum know much more about this than I do, so just wait around...)



I've wondered about the Spanish banks too - "they say" that theyre in good shape, but when you concider all the reposessions, all the defaulters, all the property and other companies going bust - it makes you think! 


Jo xxx


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## mike kelly (Aug 12, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> OH! I had no idea this was being talked about. I would think it extremely unlikely, but then who am I??
> The recession here IS very bad, but the Spanish banking system has been widely acknowledged as being "good" and i can't see what would be gained from going back to the peseta.:confused2:
> Can you post a link to any articles about this, please??
> (Other people on the forum know much more about this than I do, so just wait around...)


I know it's the telegraph, but...

and this one


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## mike kelly (Aug 12, 2009)

or here


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## mike kelly (Aug 12, 2009)

jojo said:


> I've wondered about the Spanish banks too - "they say" that theyre in good shape, but when you concider all the reposessions, all the defaulters, all the property and other companies going bust - it makes you think!
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


not to mention all the political interference in the cajas. The recent battle for Caja Madrid is a good example of this. I certainly don't trust their accounts. And in the middle of a serious economic crisis they invest 90 Million euro in Cristiano Ronaldo!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

I dont think Spain could go back to the pesata for several reasons. It would destablise the rest of the EU countries - Ireland, Portugal, Greece..... would want to go back to their old currency too, Germany, would then want their "mark" back....It would cause a few "ripples" in the "black pesata" which is still widely in use and it would totally rock any export or foriegn investment in Spain. And to get the value of the pesata right would cause some "squabbles and I think it would put Spain back by a good 30 years


Jo xxx


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## mike kelly (Aug 12, 2009)

jojo said:


> I dont think Spain could go back to the pesata for several reasons. It would destablise the rest of the EU countries - Ireland, Portugal, Greece..... would want to go back to their old currency too, Germany, would then want their "mark" back....It would cause a few "ripples" in the "black pesata" which is still widely in use and it would totally rock any export or foriegn investment in Spain. And to get the value of the pesata right would cause some "squabbles and I think it would put Spain back by a good 30 years
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


you are right, but it could save thousands of industrial jobs. I think the PSOE could favour it for this reason. The PP would definitely be against.

What is the "black peseta" by the way?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

mike kelly said:


> you are right, but it could save thousands of industrial jobs. I think the PSOE could favour it for this reason. The PP would definitely be against.
> 
> What is the "black peseta" by the way?


 I have to be honest, I dont know and I dont understand it, but there are an awful lot of folk who still use the pesata and do business using fairly large sums with it. The chap who used to own our local village shop died and left a small fortune in pesatas and alot of shops around here take it - its sort of a thriving under-currency!???! One step under the "black/undeclared earnings and expenditure" I think??? 

Jo xx


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## MartinJames (Dec 20, 2009)

Hi Mike now you are making sense. Is very interesting. After reading the Telegraph, National post and Investors insight.

The government from every European country has not got a clue. Manly because they are overruled by being a member of the Euro. Banks are at all low interest rates. Has to go up sometime soon. And the Euro is governed by a European Central Bank

It’s all negative reading but true. We need to be positive to move forward. 

Do you think the recession is bigger then we first think?

The Governments are defiantly ummmmmmmmmmm Hide the fact the Euro/ Euro Zone is in trouble.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

What I think will happen is that Spain will "threaten" to go back to the pesata to scare the EU, and will then use it as a lever make demands. But I dont think they'll acually do it!! It would be a step backwards

Jo xxx


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## Hombre (Sep 10, 2009)

jojo said:


> What I think will happen is that Spain will "threaten" to go back to the pesata to scare the EU, and will then use it as a lever make demands. But I dont think they'll acually do it!! It would be a step backwards
> 
> Jo xxx


What I think is, America is rapidly regaining its edge against Europe. US productivity rose at an 8pc rate in the third quarter of this year, while unit labour costs fell 2.5pc.

Almost exactly the opposite has occurred in Europe, where job support schemes have encouraged firms to hold on to surplus workers, leading to sharp falls in productivity. This prevents the Schumpeterian process of "creative destruction" that clears dead wood with each cycle and nurtures economic dynamism. But what do I know , I'm just a silly old man..


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Hombre said:


> What I think is, America is rapidly regaining its edge against Europe. US productivity rose at an 8pc rate in the third quarter of this year, while unit labour costs fell 2.5pc.
> 
> Almost exactly the opposite has occurred in Europe, where job support schemes have encouraged firms to hold on to surplus workers, leading to sharp falls in productivity. This prevents the Schumpeterian process of "creative destruction" that clears dead wood with each cycle and nurtures economic dynamism. But what do I know , I'm just a silly old man..


You maybe a silly old man LOL, but you're right!!! Well I think you are. Recessions are like gardening, every now and again you have to do the weeding, clear out the dead plants, rake it over and start again! If you dont, you're gonna struggle to get it looking beautiful

Jo xxx


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## Hombre (Sep 10, 2009)

Hombre said:


> What I think is, America is rapidly regaining its edge against Europe. US productivity rose at an 8pc rate in the third quarter of this year, while unit labour costs fell 2.5pc.
> 
> Almost exactly the opposite has occurred in Europe, where job support schemes have encouraged firms to hold on to surplus workers, leading to sharp falls in productivity. This prevents the Schumpeterian process of "creative destruction" that clears dead wood with each cycle and nurtures economic dynamism. But what do I know , I'm just a silly old man..


Good bit of cutting and pasting that...


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## mike kelly (Aug 12, 2009)

jojo said:


> You maybe a silly old man LOL, but you're right!!! Well I think you are. Recessions are like gardening, every now and again you have to do the weeding, clear out the dead plants, rake it over and start again! If you dont, you're gonna struggle to get it looking beautiful
> 
> Jo xxx


So governments helping to prevent unemployment is a bad thing?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

mike kelly said:


> So governments helping to prevent unemployment is a bad thing?



If its done in the right way then of course not. But its pointless doing it for the sake of it! If an industry is dying due to it becoming unneeded, then there is no point in subsidising it - "flogging a dead horse"!

Investing in future businesses is good. I often wonder whether the government would have been wiser ploughing at least some money into the UK infrastructure and the employment that would have created, rather than the quantitive easing that they gave to the banks who havent passed it down!


Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

The history of capitalism is a story of boom and bust, from the sixteenth century to the present day. If you think about simple processes like supply and demand, fundamental to the free market economy, you see a neat illustration: scarce supply =high prices leading to increased productivity =oversupply=reduced prices =slump. The Spanish construction industry is a textbook example.
But recovery sets in and the process begins again. 
Part of our current problem IMO is that we tend to view economics as a science -we talk of the 'laws' of economics. But economic activity is a human activity and therefore inherently unpredictable and its recent uncoupling from history has led to errors based on the arrogant conceit that economic theories such as socialism, Keynsianism, Friedmanism....any ism you like...can wave a magic wand and solve all problems and guarantee prosperity and stability forever.
I'm not convinced by talk about Spain or Greece leaving the Eurozone, not because I don't think it a good idea - on the contrary, devaluation would certainly help solve some of Spain's current problems - but because it ain't gonna happen.
Most of the stories about the demise of the euro come from sources who are parti-pris and would welcome this development. Talking things up or down certainly impacts the real economy - the BBC's Roberrt Peston should be in the dock -but the Eurozone is not like the old EMS. Once in, it's a one-way street.
The EU is one of the political/military economic blocs into which the world is coalescing. The UKIP contention that the UK could seek new export markets and military security by some sort of association with NAFTA has some sense behind it but Spain is in no way a comparable case.
At the end of the day, the eurozone will stay intact, just as the EU will enlarge, because that's what big global business wants.
We are just the public. We don't make the decisions.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> Investing in future businesses is good. I often wonder whether the government would have been wiser ploughing at least some money into the UK infrastructure and the employment that would have created, rather than the quantitive easing that they gave to the banks who havent passed it down!
> 
> 
> Jo xxx



Like Zapatero's Plan E? At least people can see what their tax euros are being spent on. There are quite a few of these projects round here -new pavements, road repairs, sewerage improvements: a general 'tidying up' of the environment.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Like Zapatero's Plan E? At least people can see what their tax euros are being spent on. There are quite a few of these projects round here -new pavements, road repairs, sewerage improvements: a general 'tidying up' of the environment.


I'm willing to believe that some good has come out of the plan E projects, but the projects around here have been pretty pathetic. Paving a road that goes nowhere and months and months of work on two roundabouts that are much prettier, but really did not deserve months of work.

I think it would have been better to look at jobs with a future, looking at new industries like solar energy and new farming styles. 
(I could mention English teaching, but it'll start Hombre off again...)


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## Hombre (Sep 10, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I'm willing to believe that some good has come out of the plan E projects, but the projects around here have been pretty pathetic. Paving a road that goes nowhere and months and months of work on two roundabouts that are much prettier, but really did not deserve months of work.


Same here, new pavements, resurfacing, new roundabouts, the whole town is being prettied up...looks good though. Must be to keep the unemployment figures down.


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## mike kelly (Aug 12, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> We are just the public. We don't make the decisions.


Great quote!

But could big business in Germany want countries like Spain out of the Euro in order to preserve it's stability? The Germans didn't want Spain in the Euro in the first place.

Prices for many goods and services in Spain are higher than in Germany and that is just ridiculous. If Spain wants to be part of a German dominated currency Union then it needs to adopt some German-like policies such as strictly regulating the property market. Improved productivity would be no harm either.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

mike kelly said:


> Great quote!
> 
> But could big business in Germany want countries like Spain out of the Euro in order to preserve it's stability? The Germans didn't want Spain in the Euro in the first place.
> 
> Prices for many goods and services in Spain are higher than in Germany and that is just ridiculous. If Spain wants to be part of a German dominated currency Union then it needs to adopt some German-like policies such as strictly regulating the property market. Improved productivity would be no harm either.


Hhhhm, as wonderful as Germany likes to appear to be, I'm not totally convinced its finances are as great as it makes out!! 

That said, neither are Spains. Hey, how about Germany running Europe and "taking over these poorer countries??!?? The "united states of Europe", with Germany at the helm!!!! My father in law fought in war not so long back to stop that happening!

Sorry I'm rambling. But I really get the impression sometimes that, as hideous and stupid the UK government are, they have at least been transparent to the rest of the world in showing its failings and problems. As I say, I'm not sure the rest of Europe has been!

Jo xxx


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## mike kelly (Aug 12, 2009)

jojo said:


> Hhhhm, as wonderful as Germany likes to appear to be, I'm not totally convinced its finances are as great as it makes out!!
> 
> That said, neither are Spains. Hey, how about Germany running Europe and "taking over these poorer countries??!?? The "united states of Europe", with Germany at the helm!!!! My father in law fought in war not so long back to stop that happening!
> 
> ...


Just a thought, but who paid for all those motorways which have been built in Spain in the last 30 years?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

mike kelly said:


> Just a thought, but who paid for all those motorways which have been built in Spain in the last 30 years?


uuummmmm........ would it be the EU per chance??????

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mike kelly said:


> Just a thought, but who paid for all those motorways which have been built in Spain in the last 30 years?


You and me :confused2:??????????


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

mike kelly said:


> Just a thought, but who paid for all those motorways which have been built in Spain in the last 30 years?


EU structural funds, put to good use. Pity the Czechs didn't do the same, as their appalling transport and communications structure is holding back any real prospects for future growth.
Motorway investment was a great boost to tourism and other related industries. The investment in RENFE seems sensible too -good fast communications, clean green technology.
Germany wanting Spain out of the EU - doesn't seem to be a good reason for that. France and Germany run the EU and want to keep a tight ship and all safely on board, especially in Germany's case, enlargement to include Turkey.
As for the German economy -Germany is still the world's leading exporter of manufactured value-added goods - just. The policy of keeping on skilled workers in the recession made sound business sense. You don't spend time and money training people to let them go in a temporary downturn and the Mittelstand industries, the medium-sized industries which dominate sectors such as machine-tools were thus able to get Germany out of recession, albeit slowly. German banks were not hugely exposed to the toxic loan market and personal debt is not high in thrifty Germany, where credit card use is still not common-place.
Plan E..well, yes, many of the projects are largely cosmetic, I agree. But what's best -using taxpayers' money to keep people employed albeit temporarily so they in turn pay taxes and spend in the local/national economy or paying unemployment benefit with no return and dodgy social consequences?
The worst is yet to come for Spain, I fear. Serious structural problems need to be overcome -sclerotic employment structure, lack of venture capital projects for investment in future skills and technologies, youth unemployment, over-reliance on industries such as tourism and construction.... It's possible that although Spanish banks don't have the toxic assets problem, difficulties will arise if and when construction companies are unable to repay the serious loans that facilitated the uncontrolled building boom on the costas and elsewhere ....will the Government be willing let alone able to bail them out?
The best temporary solution fopr Spain might well be to drop the euro and devalue. After all, leaving the EMS in the '90s worked for a while for Italy and the UK. and the depreciation in the value of sterling has -allegedly -boosted such exports as we still produce.
But as I said, I'd put money on it never happening, at least not for decades by which time Europe will be an insignificant space between a declining U.S. and a powerful China.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> I'm . Hey, how about Germany running Europe and "taking over these poorer countries??!?? The "united states of Europe", with Germany at the helm!!!! My father in law fought in war not so long back to stop that happening!
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


Ditto my father. Of course a 'United States of Europe' under the control of Germany and run for the benefit of the Fatherland was Hitler's grand vision.
The possibility of this recurring kept Maggie Thatcher awake at night - remember the drunken ramblings of Nicolas Ridley?


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## mike kelly (Aug 12, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> EU structural funds, put to good use. Pity the Czechs didn't do the same, as their appalling transport and communications structure is holding back any real prospects for future growth.
> Motorway investment was a great boost to tourism and other related industries. The investment in RENFE seems sensible too -good fast communications, clean green technology.
> Germany wanting Spain out of the EU - doesn't seem to be a good reason for that. France and Germany run the EU and want to keep a tight ship and all safely on board, especially in Germany's case, enlargement to include Turkey.
> As for the German economy -Germany is still the world's leading exporter of manufactured value-added goods - just. The policy of keeping on skilled workers in the recession made sound business sense. You don't spend time and money training people to let them go in a temporary downturn and the Mittelstand industries, the medium-sized industries which dominate sectors such as machine-tools were thus able to get Germany out of recession, albeit slowly. German banks were not hugely exposed to the toxic loan market and personal debt is not high in thrifty Germany, where credit card use is still not common-place.
> ...


Some great points. I certainly hope Spain does not leave the euro. This government does have me worried though as it's support base is being particularly badly hit by the crisis.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

mike kelly said:


> Some great points. I certainly hope Spain does not leave the euro. This government does have me worried though as it's support base is being particularly badly hit by the crisis.


Yes, you're right. It's amazing that there hasn't been civil unrest, considering the unemployment stats. I'm sure there would be fighting in the streets if there were 19% average workless in the UK.
Sadly, though, Spain's Trades Unions seem to be unaware of the need for changes in employment law. The distinction betweeen temporary and permanent contracts has to be dealt with: it's not sensible, fair or economically efficient to perpetuate a structure which makes it almost impossible for young people to get promotion on merit, to sack people for incompetence or for businesses to shed workers they can't afford to keep on.
It seems to me that in many ways Spain resembles former Communist countries: in both cases, former totalitarian regimes left a legacy of inflated, inefficient bureaucratic structures at all levels of government, manned by incompetent, lazy, self-seeking and overpaid civil servants and elected politicians.
I used to be involved in politics and Housing Associations at a local level, had (limited) responsibility for decision making. Now I thank God I'm out of it all and can sit back and comment on other people's efforts


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## Hombre (Sep 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Yes, you're right. It's amazing that there hasn't been civil unrest, considering the unemployment stats. I'm sure there would be fighting in the streets if there were 19% average workless in the UK.
> Sadly, though, Spain's Trades Unions seem to be unaware of the need for changes in employment law. The distinction betweeen temporary and permanent contracts has to be dealt with: it's not sensible, fair or economically efficient to perpetuate a structure which makes it almost impossible for young people to get promotion on merit, to sack people for incompetence or for businesses to shed workers they can't afford to keep on.
> It seems to me that in many ways Spain resembles former Communist countries: in both cases, former totalitarian regimes left a legacy of inflated, inefficient bureaucratic structures at all levels of government, manned by incompetent, lazy, self-seeking and overpaid civil servants and elected politicians.
> I used to be involved in politics and Housing Associations at a local level, had (limited) responsibility for decision making. Now I thank God I'm out of it all and can sit back and comment on other people's efforts


In a nutshell then..Socialism does'nt work ? As in UK...??


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Hombre said:


> In a nutshell then..Socialism does'nt work ? As in UK...??


Depends what you mean by 'work', really. As an economic system fully applied, i.e. 100% public ownership of the means of production and so on, then no, the evidence of the former Communist states shows that.
As a philosophy it's lovely, though....
I'm a great believer in a regulated market economy and the older I get I'm becoming more wary of anything ending in -ism and of any ideology that claims to know all the answers. If I get a tombstone, I want my epitaph to be Cromwell's words to the Scottish Elders: 'I beseech ye, brethren, consider: ye may be wrong'.
As for Spain leaving the euro: just a thought, but when New York became insolvent in 1975 it didn't bring the dollar down. Although refusing to do so at first, President Ford reluctantly bailed the city out for fear of the consequences. 
Although EU rules forbid the bailing out of one EU state by another as in the case Dubai/Abu Dhabi, the terms of the deal which would inevitably be on the table would be tough but a deal would be forthcoming. The consequences as with NYC would be too awful to contemplate.
As for leaving the Eurozone voluntarily, well, it would be hard if not impossible for any country which had lost the trust of investors to build a new currency system from scratch.
I think we worry too much about these things. Life will go on as normal for most of us.


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## MartinJames (Dec 20, 2009)

It works if everyone plays by the rules. But there is always someone too greedy. 

I always say Cuba has the right idea!!!!!!


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## Hombre (Sep 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Depends what you mean by 'work', really. As an economic system fully applied, i.e. 100% public ownership of the means of production and so on, then no, the evidence of the former Communist states shows that.
> As a philosophy it's lovely, though....
> I'm a great believer in a regulated market economy and the older I get I'm becoming more wary of anything ending in -ism and of any ideology that claims to know all the answers. If I get a tombstone, I want my epitaph to be Cromwell's words to the Scottish Elders: 'I beseech ye, brethren, consider: ye may be wrong'.
> As for Spain leaving the euro: just a thought, but when New York became insolvent in 1975 it didn't bring the dollar down. Although refusing to do so at first, President Ford reluctantly bailed the city out for fear of the consequences.
> ...


Mary...when you are in full flow like today...you are irresistable.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Hombre said:


> In a nutshell then..Socialism does'nt work ? As in UK...??


Sorry, I missed the main thrust of your question. I don't believe we've ever had socialism in the UK. Tony Blair's Government followed Major's budget plans for its first term and thereafter pursued such unsocialist policies as PFI -for some reason an obsession of Gordon's - reform of welfare (although half-hearted), creation of the independent central bank -pure neo-con economics- and continued with light-touch regulation of the City and its ultimately ruinous activities.
Not to mention the further privatisation of public services such as introduction of academies, aggressive foreign wars and in Blair's case poodle-like subservience to America.
Our Labour Governments could best be described as social-democratic, IMO, as were post-war Tory Governments until the arrival en scene of Maggie T.
I get really annoyed when ignorant people such as our Prague friend bang on about 'socialism' as you know..


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Hombre said:


> Mary...when you are in full flow like today...you are irresistable.


Hmm. As I know you to be a gentleman, I will take that as a compliment.
Reality is, it's p****g down, too wet and windy even to take Our Little Azor out, I hate watching daytime tv and I read at night, usually.
Hence the copious but I hope not too tedious posts.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Our powers only just come back on, hence my silence!!! The wind and rain caused a power cut here! Still nearly packed and ready to go now! 

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

[_QUOTE=mytravelphotoblog;220740]It works if everyone plays by the rules. But there is always someone too greedy_. 

That's partly true but central planning is and never has been associated with economic efficiency.
Except in wartime.

_
I always say Cuba has the right idea!!!!!![/QUOTE_]

I can see why you think that but the Cuban economy is very weak, chiefly because of the U.S. embargo and the collapse of the Communist bloc, though.
Plus it's socially very illiberal.
It also has a tendency to appoint leaders who make frequent and lengthy speeches and I can already envisage Hombre silently thanking God that he is not in Cuba with me as Leaderene.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> Our powers only just come back on, hence my silence!!! The wind and rain caused a power cut here! Still nearly packed and ready to go now!
> 
> Jo xxx


Bon Voyage


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## Hombre (Sep 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> [_QUOTE=mytravelphotoblog;220740]It works if everyone plays by the rules. But there is always someone too greedy_.
> 
> That's partly true but central planning is and never has been associated with economic efficiency.
> Except in wartime.
> ...


Lead, and I will follow.....


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Hombre said:


> Lead, and I will follow.....


which I gladly would if there were only a pub near here offering Hall and Woodhouse's Blandford Brewery's draught Badger Beer or a decent Dorset cider.......
I'm still a Dorset peasant girl at heart....


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

Hello & I joined (just) after reading this interesting thread, that has rolled on for a good number of pages without any abuse/implied belittling/I know better than you/ etc etc that you "may" see on some forums 

Brian


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

playamonte said:


> Hello & I joined (just) after reading this interesting thread, that has rolled on for a good number of pages without any abuse/implied belittling/I know better than you/ etc etc that you "may" see on some forums
> 
> Brian


Hi Brian, yes, this is the best forum, IMO. I really miss good argument/debate I had whilst working and this board fills the gap.
You may all have read in Sur that Ryanair are building a new base at Malaga Airport, to be operational by June next year with over 350 flights a week. This will bring around 2200 jobs initially at the airport itself and of course additional 'knock-on' employment.
It seems to me that this is the kind of investment Spain needs if it is to have a vibrant futuristic economy once more.
I'm in no way advocating a no-build policy but it does seem to me that an economy mainly based on tourism and construction is not a healthy one. I think the JDA's policy of Network for Spain which is apparently offering 60000 homes to foreigners with 100% legality guarantees is a sound idea and will counteract some of the bad publicity in the UK press which, even though largely economical avec la verite, has deterred some buyers. 
I'm trying to find out how much foreign residents contribute to the economy. In some areas it must be substantial but as an overall percentage, I'd guess it was low, when you take into account factors such as no tax liability, non-registering on the padron and health provision for largely elderly immigrants.
If anyone can point me to some figures I'd be pleased as all I've had so far is unproven assertions which may or may not be accurate.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> This will bring around 2200 jobs initially at the airport itself and of course additional 'knock-on' employment.


Sadly many of these I suspect are not jobs but underpaid shortterm contracts for desperate people to work under draconian conditions. I have first hand experience of this.

I believe Spain is now so far down the spiral of corruption that it will not recover without a major upheaval and outside influence. Unfortunately for Spain Europe has turned its eyes East but without help I see no future and emigration of the sufficiently educated young (nothing new I guess for the spanish) will not help.

It saddens me and I hope I am wrong but I would need some convincing.

But sorry to rattle on I just wanted to say like playamonte what a great and interesting thread.

ps talking of inflation on my recent drop in to Basingstoke I found a pint of Ruddles for £1.35 !!!! Maybe recession is not all bad.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

nigele2 said:


> Sadly many of these I suspect are not jobs but underpaid shortterm contracts for desperate people to work under draconian conditions. I have first hand experience of this.
> 
> I believe Spain is now so far down the spiral of corruption that it will not recover without a major upheaval and outside influence. Unfortunately for Spain Europe has turned its eyes East but without help I see no future and emigration of the sufficiently educated young (nothing new I guess for the spanish) will not help.
> 
> ...



Hhhmmm, yes I'll bet they are short term contracts, but at least Spain is ploughing money into its infrastructure and putting something into its future unlike the UK who just gave it to the bankers who in turn put into their pockets! It'll be interesting to see where it all goes from here. I suspect Germany are gonna cause some ripples in the not too distant future!!!???

Jo xxxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

nigele2 said:


> Sadly many of these I suspect are not jobs but underpaid shortterm contracts for desperate people to work under draconian conditions. I have first hand experience of this.
> 
> I believe Spain is now so far down the spiral of corruption that it will not recover without a major upheaval and outside influence. Unfortunately for Spain Europe has turned its eyes East but without help I see no future and emigration of the sufficiently educated young (nothing new I guess for the spanish) will not help.
> 
> ...


You may be right about the short-term contracts - like Plan E - but as Jo says, it's a job. Many jobs at all levels are short-term contract now, though, especially in the IT and financial services sector.
I think a high priority for Spain should be to reform its sclerotic labour structure ....but will the powerful unions go along with that?
You are right about the EU looking East - but then corruption in Spain pales into insignificance compared to corruption in Poland, Bulgaria (which has had EU funding blocked until it cleans its act up) and the Czech Republic. Prague City Hall has just dropped an Oyster card type scheme for its public transport system. Millions of Czech crowns budgeted for the project have 'disappeared' and surprise surprise the firm contracted by City Hall to introduce the scheme was owned and run by staff in the office responsible for implementation.....

By the way, Nigel: pop down to Blandford and see how much a pint of Badgers Ale costs now. If it's cheap enough it may be worth a flight to Bournemouth


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> By the way, Nigel: pop down to Blandford and see how much a pint of Badgers Ale costs now. If it's cheap enough it may be worth a flight to Bournemouth


Ohhh Real Ale - now that's worth a thread!!
6xx, flowers, and the Norwich beers where I first really got into Real Ale - IPA, was it???
I consider myself very lucky that an "Irish" pub opened up in our town a couple of years ago and if OH wants to make me happy he'll stand me half of Murphy's (can't take a pint now) I know it's not Real Ale, but it hits the spot!!


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

I'd rush you over pints if it wasn't for security at the airport. In my English village (I have to return frequently for work) we have three pubs and each has house and guest real ales. But £2.50 - £2.80 a pint hurts. So I couldn't believe £1.35 for ruddles. And it is not a short term promotion.

In spain mine is an Estrella from Galicia. It's good but it's not real ale.

Anyway I'm sure we will raise a glass on the 31st. Well Bedfordshire for me and an early start heading for Gatwick. Madrid here I come. Cheers and Happy New Year one and all.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

nigele2 said:


> I'd rush you over pints if it wasn't for security at the airport. In my English village (I have to return frequently for work) we have three pubs and each has house and guest real ales. But £2.50 - £2.80 a pint hurts. So I couldn't believe £1.35 for ruddles. And it is not a short term promotion.
> 
> In spain mine is an Estrella from Galicia. It's good but it's not real ale.
> 
> Anyway I'm sure we will raise a glass on the 31st. Well Bedfordshire for me and an early start heading for Gatwick. Madrid here I come. Cheers and Happy New Year one and all.



Lets hope there are no delays. We had four hours when we arrived at Gatwick the other day, now with this new bomb scare stuff...........!!????! We've got an early flight on 1st January Gatwick to Malaga!

Jo xxxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Ohhh Real Ale - now that's worth a thread!!
> 6xx, flowers, and the Norwich beers where I first really got into Real Ale - IPA, was it???
> I consider myself very lucky that an "Irish" pub opened up in our town a couple of years ago and if OH wants to make me happy he'll stand me half of Murphy's (can't take a pint now) I know it's not Real Ale, but it hits the spot!!


Norwich.....it could have been Greene King? Or Bullards?
And the pubs....The Star? The Mischief? 'The Kings Head?
All good but IMO you cannot surpass anything from Hall &Woodhouse Brewery, Blandford, Dorset.
Or Eldridge & Pope's Huntsman Ales? Now alas no longer with us.
Yes, definitely worth a thread on its own.
There is also a splendid Scottish beer, Belhaven. 
I wonder if you can get any of them round here?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

nigele2 said:


> I'd rush you over pints if it wasn't for security at the airport. In my English village (I have to return frequently for work) we have three pubs and each has house and guest real ales. But £2.50 - £2.80 a pint hurts. So I couldn't believe £1.35 for ruddles. And it is not a short term promotion.
> 
> In spain mine is an Estrella from Galicia. It's good but it's not real ale.
> 
> Anyway I'm sure we will raise a glass on the 31st. Well Bedfordshire for me and an early start heading for Gatwick. Madrid here I come. Cheers and Happy New Year one and all.


And to you. Hopefully you and Jo and anyone else flying have a smooth journey with the minimum of delays.
Mind you, it wouldn't surprise me if in future we'll all be required to strip to our underwear at security.
My mother always used to tell me to make sure I had clean underwear in case I got run over.........


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Norwich.....it could have been Greene King? Or Bullards?
> And the pubs....The Star? The Mischief? 'The Kings Head?
> All good but IMO you cannot surpass anything from Hall &Woodhouse Brewery, Blandford, Dorset.
> Or Eldridge & Pope's Huntsman Ales? Now alas no longer with us.
> ...


Ah Mary, were you ever a member of CAMRA? My old boss was - but then he was into the old home brew as well - or evil potions as they were known!! I used to love the old free houses deep in the countryside of Kent, hidden away down lanes, for real ales - and the wines as well - amazing things they made them out of, I can tell you!:clap2: Anyway, here's to you and happy memories! Hic...!!

Talking of airport security though, apparently they've disposed of my mum's stash of marmite for me. My dad told her not to put it in her hand luggage. Never mind.

xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Tallulah said:


> Ah Mary, were you ever a member of CAMRA? My old boss was - but then he was into the old home brew as well - or evil potions as they were known!! I used to love the old free houses deep in the countryside of Kent, hidden away down lanes, for real ales - and the wines as well - amazing things they made them out of, I can tell you!:clap2: Anyway, here's to you and happy memories! Hic...!!


And to you, Tally
I've never really been into real ale as beer isn't my 'thing' although I do appreciate a good tipple.
No, I'm a cider drinker, have been ever since I was old enough to hold a 'big' glass. When I lived at home in Dorset we used to load up the car with every receptacle to hand and drive to the Dorset /Somerset border where there was a village with a tiny pub where you could get 'real' draught cider.i.e. cider with bits floating in it, for 6p a pint.
I remember once I had so much cider on board that my old car couldn't get up a steep hill in Shaftesbury and my aged grandmother and mother had to get out and walk....


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> And to you, Tally
> I've never really been into real ale as beer isn't my 'thing' although I do appreciate a good tipple.
> No, I'm a cider drinker, have been ever since I was old enough to hold a 'big' glass. When I lived at home in Dorset we used to load up the car with every receptacle to hand and drive to the Dorset /Somerset border where there was a village with a tiny pub where you could get 'real' draught cider.i.e. cider with bits floating in it, for 6p a pint.
> I remember once I had so much cider on board that my old car couldn't get up a steep hill in Shaftesbury and my aged grandmother and mother had to get out and walk....


Tee hee! Yes, take the "valuable cargo"!!! There's some wonderful (and wonderfully cheap) sidra (cider) here - OH loves it in the summer, extremely cold and goes down so well. They even do the sort of homemade brands you're on about with the bits floating in it! But 6p a pint??? Blimey!! I think the trouble is we've a taste for just about everything (except anis). Can't stand that, but at "fiesta time" a bottle of "Marie Brizard" (oh yes, and a "creamy liqueur" a bit like Baileys) is often brought out at the end of the meal for the ladies. Hmmm...reminds me of Al Murray Pub Landlord - "white wine or a fruit based drink for the ladies" 

xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Tallulah said:


> Tee hee! Yes, take the "valuable cargo"!!! There's some wonderful (and wonderfully cheap) sidra (cider) here - OH loves it in the summer, extremely cold and goes down so well. They even do the sort of homemade brands you're on about with the bits floating in it! But 6p a pint??? Blimey!! I think the trouble is we've a taste for just about everything (except anis). Can't stand that, but at "fiesta time" a bottle of "Marie Brizard" (oh yes, and a "creamy liqueur" a bit like Baileys) is often brought out at the end of the meal for the ladies. Hmmm...rem
> Anis...reminds me of Al Murray Pub Landlord - "white wine or a fruit based drink for the ladies"
> 
> xxx


6p a pint...yes, but it was an awfully long time ago (not saying how long).
The locals used to mix the cider with something, I don't know what, to make a lethal brew they called 'snake bite'.
I've found some tasty Asturian cider in our local Mercadona.
Anis....now I do enjoy a pastis -Ricard for preference - in the summer especially.


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

Snake Bite - Oh, happy uni days - cider, perno and blackcurrant and usually a woman of questionable morals .....sometimes it would take pints! Always better if she had a flat as my breakfasts were not generally regarded as culinary opposition to .....well anything!


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

To get back to the initial question Reuters resumé indicates that Spain is xxxxed or to be more delicate but more frightening .... bankrupt. Happy Days. Think I need a snake bite.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

SteveHall said:


> Snake Bite - Oh, happy uni days - cider, perno and blackcurrant and usually a woman of questionable morals ..... QUOTE]
> 
> Ah..... that's what constituted snake bite!!
> I was at Uni and was a cider drinker ...BUT...I was never a woman of questionable morals -


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

mrypg9 said:


> SteveHall said:
> 
> 
> > Snake Bite - Oh, happy uni days - cider, perno and blackcurrant and usually a woman of questionable morals ..... QUOTE]
> ...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

SteveHall said:


> mrypg9 said:
> 
> 
> > Oh well, at least you enjoyed 50% of uni life.
> ...


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