# Virtual Office in Thailand...Visa Help Please



## Virtual Tourist

Hello,

I am currently living in Los Angeles, but I am thinking about moving to the Pattaya/Jomtien area of Thailand. I stayed in Thailand for 90 days about a year and a half ago. I traveled all over Asia, and of the countries I visited it seems like Thailand has the best balance of lifestyle, quality of food and medical care, and quality of life. I ended up striking a deal when I came back to the US - I sold the company I owned and arranged to work for the new owner virtually out of my apartment. I have been telecommuting to work for almost a year now. It pays OK, but I might run into financial difficulties if I don't lower my expenses this winter.

Since I don't "go to" work every day, I was thinking this might be the ideal situation to get into Thailand. I am already working and don't have to find work when I get to Thailand (or take a job away from another Expat or Thai). If I moved there, I would be working for a company that is entirely in the US selling a product that is made in the US to customers in the US. My living in Thailand would mean that I am literally plucking money out of the US economy and putting it into the Thai economy.

Recently I started reading about the Visa requirements on the Internet, and I am afraid I am baffled about how the system would treat someone like me who is already working. The working "B" Visa status requires a letter of invitation from a Thai company on Thai letterhead - but I won't be working for a Thai company....

The other Visa statuses didn't seem to suit me either. I am not retired and not over 50. I won't technically be a tourist, although financially I will be treating Thailand like a tourist or a retiree somewhat. The "O" status might be right for me, but I read somewhere that it is illegal to work if you have that status and I am not sure if working outside of the country virtually is considered "work" by the Thai laws.

I realize it is ultimately their decision whether I can move there, but I could use some advice from any expats that moved there especially if you are working for a company outside of Thailand. What is the Visa status I should apply for to live in Thailand but work for a company in the US?

- Virtual Tourist


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## synthia

I 'worked' on-line when I spent five months in Thailand. My understanding is that since I didn't set up residence, and since as a self-employed person my business is based in the place where I have legal residence (the US), and I declared my income and paid taxes in the US, I was clear as far as Thai taxes are concerned. I know someone who consulted a tax lawyer (in another country) that told him that was how it generally works.

But I'm not an expert, and I think this is a very unclear area in tax law everywhere. There are some old threads about this on a forum called Working Nomad.

Realistically, the chances that anyone will ever even know is slight.

The visa situation is another deal altogether, with rules changing all the time. Look at the threads here and at thaivisa for discussions on the visa situation.


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## Markst

Hi VT,
Right here, right now, from a 'stay in the country' perspective (which is far from easy these days), you would still be treated like a 'tourist'.

In which case, unless you specifically applied for and got a 'long-stay' visa (probably in your own country would be better, but I doubt you would get any more than 90 days) then you can only stay here 90 days in any 180...

I can't see this changing either....


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## rjnpenang

for a long term visa why not consider Malaysia on their MM2H programme, they give a 10 year one and its only 90 minutes from Penang up to Bangkok on Air Asia. AND your world wide income is tax free!.


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## synthia

World wide income is never free to Americans. The best you can get is an $80,000 exclusion for money earned outside the country. All income must be declared, no matter the source, forever. They got Al Capone, not on murder or any of the other horrible things he was guilty of, but on tax evasion.

Malaysia has fairly high income requirements, and the beach in Penang isn't as nice. There have been a lot of complaints about how haphazard the processing of the MM2H can be, with people being turned down and given no reason. But Thailand presents considerable visa problems, too.


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## Ted88888

Markst said:


> In which case, unless you specifically applied for and got a 'long-stay' visa (probably in your own country would be better, but I doubt you would get any more than 90 days) then you can only stay here 90 days in any 180....


This is not really true. 

The 90 days in 180 is only to stop people from doing the non-stop cross-border visa runs. 

You can get a 60-day tourist visa, extend it once of 30 days - then, ideally go get another tourist visa in a neighboring company - OR - do your three 30-day border runs - up to the 90 days. 

Then you are at about six months. Go get another tourist visa and start over again. 

There are many people here living on that schedule. It sounds complex, but it is not. It sounds difficult, but it is not.

All immigration is trying to do is to stop the people who lived here for years and years on monthly visa runs - which means they NEVER once filled out a proper visa application. In these times countries are wanting to know who is there and why. Seems fair enough. Certainly my own home country is FAR more difficult and complex for "visitors".


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## jerrymind

Hi All, I'm moving to Thailand in September with my girlfriend and would love to know, how possible is it to rent an office space or a serviced office in Thailand. I've been on holidays previously and fell in love with the people and their culture. Please I will appreciate any kind of help?


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## synthia

One of the people on visa runs to Penang, for a new 60-day visa, told me that an immigration official told him to stay out of the country a few days next time, or he might have trouble getting in. And at least one person got only a thirty day visa, even though he had applied for sixty. The pattern Ted described is a reasonable option. However, in Chiang Mai, the extension was a bit strange, as they would only give one week at a time, and expected the applicant to return to the same office every week to get another week added. So no one was doing that.


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## owenjones

Many, many expats 'work' on the Internet in Thailand; just walk into any Internet Cafe in Pattaya/Bangkok - marketing, eBay etc.
I've never heard of anyone getting 'caught', being asked to pay taxes, threatened with deportation ect and I'm sure that none of them has a work permit.
However, I am equally sure that this is all illegal, if only technically/marginally.
As you say, it helps the Thai economy at the end of the day.


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## synthia

The chances anyone will catch you are minimal, and you could probably bribe your way out of it anyway. I spent a lot of time sitting in a restaurant offering free wi-fi, writing articles for an Australian who was, at the time, traveling through Viet Nam. I can't think of any way I could have been 'caught' short of the government mounting a huge campaign to monitor all internet traffic, including all e-mails. Even with snoop programs, they look for words associated with crime, not for articles on a local festival.


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## Ted88888

synthia said:


> . . . and you could probably bribe your way out of it anyway.


I don't know, as soon as we start entering this type of territory - I find it hard to recommend to people that they spend their lives in "gray" areas dependent on bribes and corruption.

Corruption does eventually get cleaned up, typically with lots of people caught in the net. And it is rarely the officials who pay for it. Witness the end of the "We'll take your passport to Malaysia for you and get it stamped" businesses. How many of them were busted? None. How many regular people were arrested and deported? More than few.

Regardless of the country, I suggest that you stay UP FRONT AND LEGAL in everything you do when you live overseas. Your rights as a foreigner are tenuous at best. If you do choose to work in the gray areas - keep your mouth shut, keep a low profile, and certainly DON'T advertise what you are doing on public forums.


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## synthia

I didn't mean ot suggest paying bribes, but practically, it's true. The whole business of working on the internet is a really gray area, and countries don't have laws that apply to it, really.


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## singto

owenjones said:


> Many, many expats 'work' on the Internet in Thailand; just walk into any Internet Cafe in Pattaya/Bangkok - marketing, eBay etc.
> I've never heard of anyone getting 'caught', being asked to pay taxes, threatened with deportation ect and I'm sure that none of them has a work permit.
> However, I am equally sure that this is all illegal, if only technically/marginally.
> As you say, it helps the Thai economy at the end of the day.


It is indeed illegal. As you said though, chances of being deported are slim. However - if you are working and you're caught (girlfriend rats you out, you tell a neighbor who happens to be a cop, whatever), then you're going to be blacklisted. The Thai government has been tolerant of this - so far. 

I was caught and ended up paying 100,000 baht - down from 400,000. It wasn't a pleasant experience at all...


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## owenjones

singto said:


> I was caught and ended up paying 100,000 baht - down from 400,000. It wasn't a pleasant experience at all...


Hi Singto, how do you mean 'blacklisted' )I noticed that you have as 'Location' Bangkok?
Just out of curiosity, how did they catch you and how did they determine the fine?

Owen.


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## singto

If you're caught working illegally, internet or otherwise, you stand a good chance of being prevented from coming into the country again. It really depends on who catches you, what the circumstances are, and exactly what you were doing...it's like everything else in Thailand - there are rules and how those rules are applied is dependent on how the particular person in charge chooses to apply them.

Yes, I'm in Thailand. It was many years ago and the times were a little different than now. 

Why wasn't I deported? I'm not really sure but...

I paid the fine - which IMO went into the pocket of the police...
I was totally respectful to the police and all those involved...
I knew people in high places and used a favor

I was originally asked for 400,000 baht - negotiated it down to 100,000. Basically the cops came to my apartment - around 10 of them - and once they got through their rigmarole, they told me if I wanted to stay out of jail I needed 400 grand....not a nice way to wake up.

As far as how I was caught, I've never been able to determine this. What I do know is I was told that "they had been tracking my business for quite some time, a few years." 

Also - just because your business is set up abroad and you're paying taxes to your home country, that doesn't mean if you're taking care of business inside of Thailand that everything is okay and you have nothing to worry about. On the contrary, if you are doing anything that fits the definition of "work," for instance interviewing staff, sending out shipments, and setting up business deals - this is work.

Rarely will immigration choose to be pricks about this but if they want you, they'll make life difficult, as they did for me. You'll either pay up or sit in jail until you're deported. Like I said, it's been years since this happened and I now have a work permit and visa. So as long as I'm abiding by the description & guidelines in my work permit, I am fine. I don't go out of the country every three months, in fact I now simply renew my visa and work permit once a year. I do go out of the country approximately 10-15 times per year but this has no bearing on my visa or working status.


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## singto

If you're caught working illegally, internet or otherwise, you stand a good chance of being prevented from coming into the country again. It really depends on who catches you, what the circumstances are, and exactly what you were doing...it's like everything else in Thailand - there are rules and how those rules are applied is dependent on how the particular person in charge chooses to apply them.

Yes, I'm in Thailand. It was many years ago and the times were a little different than now. 

Why wasn't I deported? I'm not really sure but...

I paid the fine - which IMO went into the pocket of the police...
I was totally respectful to the police and all those involved...
I knew people in high places and used a favor

I was originally asked for 400,000 baht - negotiated it down to 100,000. Basically the cops came to my apartment - around 10 of them - and once they got through their rigmarole, they told me if I wanted to stay out of jail I needed 400 grand....not a nice way to wake up.

As far as how I was caught, I've never been able to determine this. What I do know is I was told that "they had been tracking my business for quite some time, a few years." 

Also - just because your business is set up abroad and you're paying taxes to your home country, that doesn't mean if you're taking care of business inside of Thailand that everything is okay and you have nothing to worry about. On the contrary, if you are doing anything that fits the definition of "work," for instance interviewing staff, sending out shipments, and setting up business deals - this is work.

Rarely will immigration choose to be pricks about this but if they want you, they'll make life difficult, as they did for me. You'll either pay up or sit in jail until you're deported. Like I said, it's been years since this happened and I now have a work permit and visa. So as long as I'm abiding by the description & guidelines in my work permit, I am fine. I don't go out of the country every three months, in fact I now simply renew my visa and work permit once a year. I do go out of the country approximately 10-15 times per year but this has no bearing on my visa or working status.


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## owenjones

Thanks for explaining.
You're the only one I know who has shed any real light on this subject.
All the best,
Owen.


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## Virtual Tourist

singto said:


> If you're caught working illegally, internet or otherwise, you stand a good chance of being prevented from coming into the country again. It really depends on who catches you, what the circumstances are, and exactly what you were doing...it's like everything else in Thailand - there are rules and how those rules are applied is dependent on how the particular person in charge chooses to apply them.
> 
> Yes, I'm in Thailand. It was many years ago and the times were a little different than now.
> 
> Why wasn't I deported? I'm not really sure but...
> 
> I paid the fine - which IMO went into the pocket of the police...
> I was totally respectful to the police and all those involved...
> I knew people in high places and used a favor
> 
> I was originally asked for 400,000 baht - negotiated it down to 100,000. Basically the cops came to my apartment - around 10 of them - and once they got through their rigmarole, they told me if I wanted to stay out of jail I needed 400 grand....not a nice way to wake up.
> 
> As far as how I was caught, I've never been able to determine this. What I do know is I was told that "they had been tracking my business for quite some time, a few years."
> 
> Also - just because your business is set up abroad and you're paying taxes to your home country, that doesn't mean if you're taking care of business inside of Thailand that everything is okay and you have nothing to worry about. On the contrary, if you are doing anything that fits the definition of "work," for instance interviewing staff, sending out shipments, and setting up business deals - this is work.
> 
> Rarely will immigration choose to be pricks about this but if they want you, they'll make life difficult, as they did for me. You'll either pay up or sit in jail until you're deported. Like I said, it's been years since this happened and I now have a work permit and visa. So as long as I'm abiding by the description & guidelines in my work permit, I am fine. I don't go out of the country every three months, in fact I now simply renew my visa and work permit once a year. I do go out of the country approximately 10-15 times per year but this has no bearing on my visa or working status.


I understand what will happen if I am "working illegally", however, I haven't quite put my finger on what is illegal or not. Certainly, my intention is to work legally but I get different answers from everyone I ask what is actually considered legal.

I spoke with 2 Thai law firms and called a local Thai consulate and all 3 of them gave me different answers. The Thai consulate in fact told me that I should just get a tourist visa because I don't have a valid business reason to be in Thailand, which is true. Obviously, in this case a work permit and paying taxes in Thailand would not be required. It was the Thai consulates' opinion that this is legal.

Only one of the lawyers said I will need a work permit, and this is the part that I can't seem to find a clear answer for. To work for a company that has no operations or partners in Thailand while I stay there, is there any need for a work permit?

If someone were to go to Thailand on a 2 week holiday and had to catch a few online meetings and write a few reports on his laptop in between lying on the beach and Wat sightings, would he need a work permit? The only difference between me and this hypothetical traveler would be the length of time I am staying and the type of dwelling I am staying in.

If there is an official page on the Internet that clearly defines when a work permit is required and when it is not required, could somebody please post the link?


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## Ted88888

I think/suspect that what you are dealing with is the fact that laws are often not up to date with the current wired (or even wireless these days) world - AND what you are getting from the different sources are their interpretations of these laws as applied to more modern circumstances.

These things are a bit of an issue worldwide really as governments, legislators, lawmakers can't really keep up and often aren't even aware of the latest jumps in technology and how it affects the business and working worlds.

The reality is that anywhere in the world you may well have to deal with a local official with their local interpretation of law. If you keep your head down, your nose clean and as aware as possible of rules/regs/laws - you can lessen your risks, but probably never really eliminate them. Tain't how life works . . .


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## Virtual Tourist

Ted88888 said:


> I think/suspect that what you are dealing with is the fact that laws are often not up to date with the current wired (or even wireless these days) world - AND what you are getting from the different sources are their interpretations of these laws as applied to more modern circumstances.
> 
> These things are a bit of an issue worldwide really as governments, legislators, lawmakers can't really keep up and often aren't even aware of the latest jumps in technology and how it affects the business and working worlds.
> 
> The reality is that anywhere in the world you may well have to deal with a local official with their local interpretation of law. If you keep your head down, your nose clean and as aware as possible of rules/regs/laws - you can lessen your risks, but probably never really eliminate them. Tain't how life works . . .


Well, one thing is certain - I need to know about the work permit before I enter Thailand because if I enter under a tourist visa I can't get a work permit when I am there.

The confusion around this issue is compounded by Expat advice that is centered around opening and operating a business within Thailand in which the rules are obviously very different than my case.


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## synthia

If you enter under a tourist visa and want a work permit, you should be able to get everyithing in order for a work permit (assuming you qualify), then leave the country briefly to get the paperwork processed at a Thai consulate. A trip to Penang or Singapore or Pnomh Penh should work.


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## owenjones

Virtual Tourist said:


> If there is an official page on the Internet that clearly defines when a work permit is required and when it is not required, could somebody please post the link?


Oh, how much easier life would be!

Fat chance, this a major problem, you usually only get opinions and interpretations; even 'real live examples' vary from place to place and from one official to another.

For example: about three years ago, a friend said that you could now do your 90 day visa signing online. I went to the Immigration Office (Jomtien's) website and there was the form. I used it three consecutive times and went down to renew my visa. I had absolutely no problems, but I thought I'd check anyway: "Can I sign my 90 days online? That is OK, yes?". "No", he said, "no online, you must come here every time. Nobody knows the Internet here".

How can you win?
It seems that there is a movement to modernizing the system and making it more readily understandable, but the knowledge is not being passed down the line.

Owen.


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## singto

owenjones said:


> Oh, how much easier life would be!
> 
> Fat chance, this a major problem, you usually only get opinions and interpretations; even 'real live examples' vary from place to place and from one official to another.
> 
> For example: about three years ago, a friend said that you could now do your 90 day visa signing online. I went to the Immigration Office (Jomtien's) website and there was the form. I used it three consecutive times and went down to renew my visa. I had absolutely no problems, but I thought I'd check anyway: "Can I sign my 90 days online? That is OK, yes?". "No", he said, "no online, you must come here every time. Nobody knows the Internet here".
> 
> How can you win?
> It seems that there is a movement to modernizing the system and making it more readily understandable, but the knowledge is not being passed down the line.
> 
> Owen.


Try this one...

Immigration Bureau


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## synthia

And, of course, the consular people and the immigration people are free to do whatever they want, at their discretion.


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## owenjones

singto said:


> Try this one...
> 
> Immigration Bureau


Wow, that must have cost a few bob - quite litterally.
I've seen better school projects.
A lot of the links didn't work either.

This is the direct link to the Pattaya/Jomtien page to register a stay longer than 90 days:

Form TM.47

The rest of the site is pretty good too, but the point is that a senior officer there denied it existed.

Owen.


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## owenjones

*List of documents required for business purposes.*

This is a list of requirements for a @Business Visa' as declared by the Pattaya website:

1] List of documents required for business purposes. 
2] Application form (TM.7) 
3] Copy of applicant’s passport 
4] Certificate of employment prepared in accordance with the form prescribed by the Immigration Bureau (Sor.Tor.Mor.1)- A table showing the numbers of all foreigners employed by the company, also their salary on monthly and annually basis, and their total salary, is additionally required. 
5] Copy of work permit 
6] Proof of corporate registration e.g. certificate of incorporation of company or partnership certified by the Registrar with validity for 6 months 
7] Copy of list of shareholders certified by the Registrar with validity for 6 months 
8] Copy of latest balance sheet and income statement certified by the Revenue Dept. or Business Development Dept. or the Auditor or original documents only 
9] Copy of latest monthly withholding tax return showing the name of employees and the alien applicant, together with receipt (or an explanatory letter) 
10] Copy of latest personal income tax return of the applicant, together with receipt (or an explanatory letter) 
11] Copy of latest monthly social security contributions return filed with the Social Security Office (Form Sor.Por.Sor. 1-10) 
12] Proof of the need of the business to employ the alien e.g. no Thai candidate has applied after advertising such a position 
13] Location map of the place of work 
14] Other supporting documents required by the competent authority (Sor.Tor.Mor.2) 
Photographs showing the location of the business a. Exterior photographs showing the address and the sign of company name b. Interior photographs showing the employee while working 
Original documents of Nos. 5,6,7,8,9 and 10 must be provided. 
In case the applicant are accompanied by the family member, proof of family relationship e.g. marriage certificate, birth certificate of their children must be provided. If these documents were issued by a foreign government, they must be certified by such foreign embassy. 

I think this means: don't bother trying to move your business to Thailand.

Owen.


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## singto

owenjones said:


> This is a list of requirements for a @Business Visa' as declared by the Pattaya website:
> 
> 1] List of documents required for business purposes.
> 2] Application form (TM.7)
> 3] Copy of applicant’s passport
> 4] Certificate of employment prepared in accordance with the form prescribed by the Immigration Bureau (Sor.Tor.Mor.1)- A table showing the numbers of all foreigners employed by the company, also their salary on monthly and annually basis, and their total salary, is additionally required.
> 5] Copy of work permit
> 6] Proof of corporate registration e.g. certificate of incorporation of company or partnership certified by the Registrar with validity for 6 months
> 7] Copy of list of shareholders certified by the Registrar with validity for 6 months
> 8] Copy of latest balance sheet and income statement certified by the Revenue Dept. or Business Development Dept. or the Auditor or original documents only
> 9] Copy of latest monthly withholding tax return showing the name of employees and the alien applicant, together with receipt (or an explanatory letter)
> 10] Copy of latest personal income tax return of the applicant, together with receipt (or an explanatory letter)
> 11] Copy of latest monthly social security contributions return filed with the Social Security Office (Form Sor.Por.Sor. 1-10)
> 12] Proof of the need of the business to employ the alien e.g. no Thai candidate has applied after advertising such a position
> 13] Location map of the place of work
> 14] Other supporting documents required by the competent authority (Sor.Tor.Mor.2)
> Photographs showing the location of the business a. Exterior photographs showing the address and the sign of company name b. Interior photographs showing the employee while working
> Original documents of Nos. 5,6,7,8,9 and 10 must be provided.
> In case the applicant are accompanied by the family member, proof of family relationship e.g. marriage certificate, birth certificate of their children must be provided. If these documents were issued by a foreign government, they must be certified by such foreign embassy.
> 
> I think this means: don't bother trying to move your business to Thailand.
> 
> Owen.


I think you're being a little too cynical. Try opening a business in the U.S. as a foreigner. It's no different really. There's quite a bit of red tape but I know first hand as well as through many of my friends who have businesses here, it can be done. You just need to have patience (alot of it) and perseverance.

Also - I read your website and your experience of trying to get a girl a visa. A few things...

You are correct in saying that a person should wait AT LEAST 6 months before even trying. I'm an American so things are a bit different, from what I know, it's more difficult to get a girl into the States than the UK. 

If you know a girl for a month, honestly, that's normally way too fast to start making plans to bring the girl back with you but obviously this is your prerogative. IMHO one month is simply not enough time to a) get to know someone b) be able to trust them c) to get to know the culture well enough to bridge your cultural gaps - and there are gaps.

Also - I'm going to assume she wasn't working in a bar. If she was, any chance of success has now dropped to about .00001 percent. I'm not talking about success bringing her back home, I'm talking about the relationship actually working out. 

If she wasn't working in a bar, was she working? Because if a girl doesn't show that she's been gainfully employed, has money in the back, or has a good reason to come back (a kid is not considered a good reason), chances are you're going to get turned down every single time. The reason the embassies do this is because they don't want guys bringing over prostitutes, then having problems with them, and then are forced to go find them to deport them.

If you're legit, as in, you've been together for a considerable amount of time and been together the majority of it, you will seldom have a problem. But that's the key - normally, you can't be in love with a girl working in a bar and a week later bring her back to Switzerland or wherever. If she has land, is enrolled in a university, she and her parents (and you) have a fair amount of cash, again, it shouldn't be a problem.


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## owenjones

singto said:


> I think you're being a little too cynical. Try opening a business in the U.S. as a foreigner. It's no different really. There's quite a bit of red tape but I know first hand as well as through many of my friends who have businesses here, it can be done. You just need to have patience (alot of it) and perseverance.


Mmmm, I thought the question was about 'Bringing a business over to Thailand', but it seems that that is another thread. As for cynical, I just copied and pasted from the Pattaya Immigration website. I've no axe to grind here.



singto said:


> Also - I read your website and your experience of trying to get a girl a visa. A few things...


Please, not my website; I may not work in Thailand, as you know. It is, however, my story.



singto:57531 said:


> You are correct in saying that a person should wait AT LEAST 6 months before even trying. I'm an American so things are a bit different, from what I know, it's more difficult to get a girl into the States than the UK.
> 
> If you know a girl for a month, honestly, that's normally way too fast to start making plans to bring the girl back with you but obviously this is your prerogative. IMHO one month is simply not enough time to a) get to know someone b) be able to trust them c) to get to know the culture well enough to bridge your cultural gaps - and there are gaps.
> 
> Also - I'm going to assume she wasn't working in a bar. If she was, any chance of success has now dropped to about .00001 percent. I'm not talking about success bringing her back home, I'm talking about the relationship actually working out.
> 
> If she wasn't working in a bar, was she working? Because if a girl doesn't show that she's been gainfully employed, has money in the back, or has a good reason to come back (a kid is not considered a good reason), chances are you're going to get turned down every single time. The reason the embassies do this is because they don't want guys bringing over prostitutes, then having problems with them, and then are forced to go find them to deport them.
> 
> If you're legit, as in, you've been together for a considerable amount of time and been together the majority of it, you will seldom have a problem. But that's the key - normally, you can't be in love with a girl working in a bar and a week later bring her back to Switzerland or wherever. If she has land, is enrolled in a university, she and her parents (and you) have a fair amount of cash, again, it shouldn't be a problem.


Singto, you seem to have muddled up to the dates. This story took place FOUR years ago and just as it is related. 
We did try too early and were told quietly to come back after six weeks or so and try again. That time we were successful. She did not have any land or money, my word was enough (well, they needed a leter of sponsorship and a bank statement too). Everything that's written there is true. Simple as that. I don't agree with you when you say "been together a considerable amount of time" - it wasn't my experience nor that or many others I know. Another thing, "if she's ... in university" ! Most guys that come here, might have grand-daughters in university, not girlfriends. In my experience, the two most common reasons for denial are: failure to establish a lasting and meaningful relationship (official reason) and a huge age gap as in a 65 yr old man with a 20 girl (unofficial reason).
Most older men who come here have (some/enough) money.

Like I said, that story started four years ago. We are still together. She has been to Britain twice in that time, as have I. We built a bungalow in Uttaradit two-and-a-half years ago and got married in March this year. All my family came over for it. They knew her before from the trips home.

So, Singo, re-read your comments and realize that maybe, just maybe, I am not the only one who could be accused of being cynical here. 

Regards,
Owen.


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## singto

> I think this means: don't bother trying to move your business to Thailand.


To me, this is extremely cynical.



> Singto, you seem to have muddled up to the dates. This story took place FOUR years ago and just as it is related. We did try too early and were told quietly to come back after six weeks or so and try again. That time we were successful. She did not have any land or money, my word was enough (well, they needed a leter of sponsorship and a bank statement too). Everything that's written there is true. Simple as that. I don't agree with you when you say "been together a considerable amount of time" - it wasn't my experience nor that or many others


Dates had nothing to do with it, time spent together does. If you say you've been seeing a girl for 6 months but you've only been in the country 3 weeks, I don't know, call me old fashioned but this isn't exactly getting to know one another. Not saying it won't work, it may for some, but like I said, the chances are slim.

If the girl's not working in a bar, your chances of getting her over with sponsorship are much better than if she is. Why anyone would bring a bar girl to their home country defies imagination but of course, there are guys who do. I don't go out much any more but almost every time I do, some guy is hanging on his girl (or she's dragging him around) and he's telling me how he's going to marry her....ok...sure.

However, I know many, many, people who have tried to get their girls to various countries after spending a few weeks or a few months with them, and the result was the same - denied. If they were still together in a few months time and they tried, they were more apt to be approved.



> I know. Another thing, "if she's ... in university" ! Most guys that come here, might have grand-daughters in university, not girlfriends. In my experience, the two most common reasons for denial are: failure to establish a lasting and meaningful relationship (official reason) and a huge age gap as in a 65 yr old man with a 20 girl (unofficial reason). Most older men who come here have (some/enough) money.


If you think that the embassies don't factor in the eduction of a woman trying to go the U.S., U.K., or elsewhere, you're kidding yourself. Money, and or employment are two other reasons you're not mentioning, and they are important. In the UK it may be different than in the US but in Europe it seems sponsorship is the key - if you've got the money to sponsor them, they can go. 

Most guys that come to Thailand are old enough to have granddaughters??? Please...

In 2007, the age distribution of tourism was:

8% were aged 0-14 years 
15% were 15-24 years 
26% were 25-34 years 
21% were 35-44 years 
17% were aged 45-54 
13% were 55 and over

47% of these visitors were male. So...in fact, most men coming to Thailand are not really old enough to have granddaughters unless they're starting early - and nowadays people aren't having kids any more at 20 years old, they're waiting longer.




> Like I said, that story started four years ago. We are still together. She has been to Britain twice in that time, as have I. We built a bungalow in Uttaradit two-and-a-half years ago and got married this. All my family came over for it. They knew her before from the trips home.


Well that's nice...and how it's supposed to be.



> So, Singto, re-read your comments and realize that maybe, just maybe, I am not the only one who could be accused of being cynical


Okay, I've reread my comments and I still believe what you wrote was cynical. And while at times I, like anyone else, can be cynical, in this case I wasn't.


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## owenjones

"Dates had nothing to do with it, time spent together does. If you say you've been seeing a girl for 6 months but you've only been in the country 3 weeks, I don't know, call me old fashioned but this isn't exactly getting to know one another. Not saying it won't work, it may for some, but like I said, the chances are slim.!"

What is this "3 weeks" all about? Did you pluck that out of thin air; is it a quote from the website; or are you trying to make a point by exaggeration. It's irrelevant whichever way - no-one has mentioned "3 weeks".

I can't and wouldn't argue with your percentages, but all I can say is that, by your figures, most of the old ones live in Soi Buakhow, Pattaya and a high percentage of them can (or could, now that the procedure has changed) be seen coming out of the British Embassy with a long face and a young woman-cum-old girl.

Not cynical? Come off it. Your attitude to 'working girls' is so stereotypical that it could be in a 'Carry On' film. Everybody should know the dangers of trusting a bar girl and everybody knows horror stories about them, but to suggest that they should all be avoided is wrong. Pure and simple wrong and cynical. Only speaking for the little area I know up here: there are about 12 fairly long-term couples (over 4-5 years; go on, jump on that statistics); I don't know what the girls did before, but I know the odds; and only ONE ripped her husband off. And he later admitted to being stupid, because he used to take his wife's uncle around the easy bars 'for company'. HE blew it first.

Anyway, this area may not be typical; I'm sure it's not typical of cities or beaches and I haven't lived in any other wildernesses in Thailand, so I can only say what I know.

Owen.


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## singto

> What is this "3 weeks" all about? Did you pluck that out of thin air; is it a quote from the website; or are you trying to make a point by exaggeration. It's irrelevant whichever way - no-one has mentioned "3 weeks".


If I was referring to you, I would have said so - I wasn't - yes, it was an exaggeration but obviously you didn't figure that out. 



> I can't and wouldn't argue with your percentages, but all I can say is that, by your figures, most of the old ones live in Soi Buakhow, Pattaya and a high percentage of them can (or could, now that the procedure has changed) be seen coming out of the British Embassy with a long face and a young woman-cum-old girl.


Huh? Those are 2007 TAT figures - where they live didn't seem to factor in to your thinking.



> Not cynical? Come off it. Your attitude to 'working girls' is so stereotypical that it could be in a 'Carry On' film. Everybody should know the dangers of trusting a bar girl and everybody knows horror stories about them, but to suggest that they should all be avoided is wrong. Pure and simple wrong and cynical. Only speaking for the little area I know up here: there are about 12 fairly long-term couples (over 4-5 years; go on, jump on that statistics); I don't know what the girls did before, but I know the odds; and only ONE ripped her husband off. And he later admitted to being stupid, because he used to take his wife's uncle around the easy bars 'for company'. HE blew it first.


Not cynical my friend, REAL. If everybody knows the dangers of bar girls, then why do so many guys cry over their spilt milk? Because theirs was different, that's what. If you trust a bar girl to do anything other than earn her money, then you're going to the wrong place - if you honestly think bar girls are a trustworthy lot, you might want to think again.

My guess is your girl was a bar girl which is why this bothers you. There's a rule here and if you're as experienced as you think, then you know it - "Don't get emotionally involved with a bar girl" 

Why? Because it's hard enough to make it work with any woman. Factor in the lack of cultural knowledge that most guys have frequenting the bar scene, then add in the fact that the girl lays on her back for a living, and you've got a recipe for disaster. Say what you want about all your buddies relationships not working out, I've seen literally hundreds of guys screwed over, not just financially but emotionally. I tell you what - if you're so confident about hooking some guy up with a working girl, you hook up with one or hook up your best buddy with one. I'm not talking about a one-nighter, I'm talking about starting a relationship. You go right ahead, I'll stick with the girls who were educated abroad or at least in a uni here in Thailand.



> Anyway, this area may not be typical; I'm sure it's not typical of cities or beaches and I haven't lived in any other wildernesses in Thailand, so I can only say what I know.


Owen - call me cynical if you like - there's a difference between knowing what the truth is and being trustworthy for no good reason. I'm glad you fell in love with a girl literally right when you arrived and you're still together - whether she worked or not is unimportant to me - but I'm here to tell you, that you're one of the lucky ones.


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## owenjones

I am lucky, I'll give you that and if it all goes horribly wrong, I won't be jumping to blaming it on something outside our relationship, especially not ancient history.

I can't folow some of the things you've written, but it doesn't matter anyway eg:

the statistics: re-read what we both said and tell me why you said the above

'my buddies' problems': I said there was only ONE with a problem

'hooking my friends up': I've never done that in any country I've lived; I tend not to interfere.

Anyway, I've had enough for now.

Take care,
Owen.


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## singto

owenjones said:


> Anyway, I've had enough for now


Good......


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## Virtual Tourist

owenjones said:


> Mmmm, I thought the question was about 'Bringing a business over to Thailand', but it seems that that is another thread.
> Owen.


Technically, no. The business will remain in the US and I do not plan to move it to Thailand. I have relinquished ownership and I am now telecommuting as a self-employed consultant.

The only variable here is that I will be telecommuting from Thailand instead of from Los Angeles. Technically, there will be no customers, partners, or other business relationships with anyone in Thailand, the company sells a US made product to customers in the US.

This benefits me by reducing my living expenses and also benefits Thailand because I will be paying rent and patronizing local businesses in Thailand, yet I won't be taking a job away from a Thai citizen. While it seems like this benefits everyone involved, there is apparently no provision in the law to do this.


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## Kelvin Klus

Wow...Thailand visas for expats are indeed not well considered of.
If I were in authority, I would change it all. Having more smarter guys to help Thailand is really a good idea to lead the country. Providing Thai citizenships to qualified foreigners are in my thoughts for years. The Australian Andrew Biggs, the Swedish singer (?) Jonas, and the English singer Christy would get it before others as they do love Thai cultures. <Oh... I wonder how they manage their visa. Andrew is still working. The two singers has been quiet for long!>


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## Zark

Kelvin Klus said:


> If I were in authority, I would change it all.


Yeah, me too - I would make myself a fortune!

Well - maybe after I made things better for everyone else. . .


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