# Bank robbery



## The Skipper (Nov 26, 2014)

After 14 years of free banking in Spain, first with Bancaja and in recent years with Bankia, we have now been told that new owners CaixaBank will start charging us €288 a year from June to maintain our joint current account in its existing form (including two debit cards and two credit cards). I have been shopping around to find another bank that will provide a free joint current account and have had several recommendations for ING. Does anyone have any experience of using an ING account?


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

We've been with CaixaBank for years and the fees are €36 p.a. including debit cards. You need to have a pension or salary going in each month (minimum €600), and have three direct debits or make three payments on the debit card each quarter.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

You can see why people believe in crypto currencies. Banks are basically too big to fail and too big too jail. They are basically the nearest thing we have to legalised criminals. Every single movement of our money incurs some kind of fractional payment to banks. Consider this: money transactions by banks are actually limited by working time periods!!. Yet money can be sent in a matter of seconds at anytime to anywhere. Banks simply say no to this because they have total control. Banks allow fraud and thefts to happen and feel they have a minimal duty to help and protect you. Banks harvest all your information and can do what they like with it. Cryptocurrencies are decentralized and more secure than banks. Any theft that happens is the responsibility of the individuals as the blockchain are the most secure systems we have. Cryptocurrencies dont cost you for buying them, selling them, storing them, transferring them. Cryptocurrencies are built to deflate not inflate. Cryptocurrencies provides you with total anonymity. No one is watching you. Cryptocurrencies are more democratic and more moral than banks


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## The Skipper (Nov 26, 2014)

Alcalaina said:


> We've been with CaixaBank for years and the fees are €36 p.a. including debit cards. You need to have a pension or salary going in each month (minimum €600), and have three direct debits or make three payments on the debit card each quarter.


If I understood the bank manager correctly, from June we will have to pay €36 a quarter for each debit card. She suggested that we don't need the debit cards and can continue to use the credit cards without charge, but we would be charged for cash withdrawals made with credit cards! We pay in every month more than double the minimum requirement and always maintain a healthy credit balance in the account. ING, which has a branch in Alicante, and a good online service, offers totally free banking (as we have enjoyed for the last 14 years with Bancaja/Bankia) so it looks like we'll be changing banks.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

I have two mortgages with different banks and both have announced that this year they will charge for debit cards. It seems to be the ony way to avoid this is move away from the Spanish banks and try to go to an ING type of bank, but the banks know that if you have a mortgage with them, you are more likely to pay the additional charges than take your mortgage elsewhere with current conditions.

If I didn't have mortgages I would go to ING (or similar).

On the direct debit issue, we are seeing that many businesses, especially bars and restaurants are now accepting Bizum as a form of payment, which (as long as it is free) could be a viable alternative, but I expect that the banks will soon limit this, or add charges.


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## xgarb (May 6, 2011)

Another alternative is to use another online bank just for the debit cards and keep it topped up with the amount you expect to spend every month. A bit more secure than having the debit cards attached to your main account. For example: Compare Bank Accounts & Plans free if you only make 3 cash withdrawals a month.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Why not get an online account - they are all free


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

kaipa said:


> You can see why people believe in crypto currencies. Banks are basically too big to fail and too big too jail. They are basically the nearest thing we have to legalised criminals. Every single movement of our money incurs some kind of fractional payment to banks. Consider this: money transactions by banks are actually limited by working time periods!!. Yet money can be sent in a matter of seconds at anytime to anywhere. Banks simply say no to this because they have total control. Banks allow fraud and thefts to happen and feel they have a minimal duty to help and protect you. Banks harvest all your information and can do what they like with it. Cryptocurrencies are decentralized and more secure than banks. Any theft that happens is the responsibility of the individuals as the blockchain are the most secure systems we have. Cryptocurrencies dont cost you for buying them, selling them, storing them, transferring them. Cryptocurrencies are built to deflate not inflate. Cryptocurrencies provides you with total anonymity. No one is watching you. Cryptocurrencies are more democratic and more moral than banks


Crypto currencies are disastrous for the environment because of the energy needed to mine them, so we’ll all pay in the end. They are ideal for money laundering and organized crime. Lots of gullible people have lost their life savings speculating on them. I’d rather have a regulated banking system, despite its drawbacks.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Alcalaina said:


> Crypto currencies are disastrous for the environment because of the energy needed to mine them, so we’ll all pay in the end. They are ideal for money laundering and organized crime. Lots of gullible people have lost their life savings speculating on them. I’d rather have a regulated banking system, despite its drawbacks.


Normal banking leaves a huge carbon footprint too. All that money making, computer running, transportation etc. The charge against cryptos is slightly unfair and no doubt part of the establishment to keep people from using it. What is almost certain is that within 20 years cryptocurrencies of some sort will be the main way we use money- simply because technology will be so dominant in people's lives banks will be redundant. 
Plus normal money constantly produces inflation and then interest rates. It's a totally redundant system unfit for purpose. 
On a personal note. Last week went to Caixa to pay a Tasa for TIE appointment. In bank was a huge queue of people waiting to to use the machines. No one was allowed to do any transaction in the bank. Everyone was complaining as people were having problems using the machines for bill payments, transfers etc. One person kept coming out to try and help and then disappeared. I couldn't pay the Tasa as it wouldn't except the bar code. Eventually I was told to wait inside. I was there for one hour before I was dealt with. Inside was one person at a paperless desk with 2 phone and a Macbook. No one else was there. It took a few minutes to make the payment- which then generated a number of paper copies from a printer which all had to be signed. It was the most inefficient service ever and what makes it so annoying is I pay 15 euros a month just to have an account and you are treated appallingly.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

snikpoh said:


> Why not get an online account - they are all free



This is what my manager has recommended to us. Just an online account. Personally that's what we do anyway. I can't remember the last time I entered a bank?


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## xgarb (May 6, 2011)

Spanish banks are mostly made up of psychopaths in head offices giving branch staff impossible targets and working out how to reduce services as much as possible while adding on charges where ever they think they will get away with it. I don't know how low income pensioners cope with all the charges, lack of service and technology walls put up by the banks here. So much different in the UK in my experience.

Spain needs a Girobank style bank for low income people and pensioners with basic services and low charges run out of the post office network.


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## ayrez (Sep 15, 2016)

Re using your credit card to access cash from ATM With Caixa. You will be given the option of taking the cash from the current account associated with the card or adding to your credit card. If you opt for taking cash from the current account there will be no charge. Must admit I had my doubts when I decided I would not pay for a debit card but I can assure you that it works.


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## The Skipper (Nov 26, 2014)

snikpoh said:


> Why not get an online account - they are all free


What we have now is an online account. It works well and is totally free. But CaixaBank have told us that they are imposing charges from June!


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

The Skipper said:


> What we have now is an online account. It works well and is totally free. But CaixaBank have told us that they are imposing charges from June!


so look at all the others - wefferent for example


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## The Skipper (Nov 26, 2014)

snikpoh said:


> so look at all the others - wefferent for example


Exactly what I am doing and that's why I asked for feedback on ING. I don't think there is much point changing to a small Spanish bank because the likelihood is that they will be taken over by Caixa or one of the other big players in the near future and I could end up back where I am now. I am interested to read the comments above from Ayrez so maybe there is a way around the new Caixa charges. I have been called to a meeting at the bank so I will wait to see what they say face-to-face.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

The Skipper said:


> Exactly what I am doing and that's why I asked for feedback on ING. I don't think there is much point changing to a small Spanish bank because the likelihood is that they will be taken over by Caixa or one of the other big players in the near future and I could end up back where I am now. I am interested to read the comments above from Ayrez so maybe there is a way around the new Caixa charges. I have been called to a meeting at the bank so I will wait to see what they say face-to-face.


do you have the caixabank now account?


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## The Skipper (Nov 26, 2014)

snikpoh said:


> do you have the caixabank now account?


Yes, the account is currently called CaixaBankNow, also known as HolaBank. That's probably about the fifth name our account has had since it was first opened with Bancaja 14 years ago!


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## MataMata (Nov 30, 2008)

I have a Caxia Hola bank A/C with credit card and apart from one single occasion where I transferred some money to UK in 4 years have not paid a single cent in fees or charges.


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## Sandiegosurf (Jun 2, 2013)

kaipa said:


> You can see why people believe in crypto currencies. Banks are basically too big to fail and too big too jail. They are basically the nearest thing we have to legalised criminals. Every single movement of our money incurs some kind of fractional payment to banks. Consider this: money transactions by banks are actually limited by working time periods!!. Yet money can be sent in a matter of seconds at anytime to anywhere. Banks simply say no to this because they have total control. Banks allow fraud and thefts to happen and feel they have a minimal duty to help and protect you. Banks harvest all your information and can do what they like with it. Cryptocurrencies are decentralized and more secure than banks. Any theft that happens is the responsibility of the individuals as the blockchain are the most secure systems we have. Cryptocurrencies dont cost you for buying them, selling them, storing them, transferring them. Cryptocurrencies are built to deflate not inflate. Cryptocurrencies provides you with total anonymity. No one is watching you. Cryptocurrencies are more democratic and more moral than banks


I 100% agree with this comment.


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## Sandiegosurf (Jun 2, 2013)

Alcalaina said:


> Crypto currencies are disastrous for the environment because of the energy needed to mine them, so we’ll all pay in the end. They are ideal for money laundering and organized crime. Lots of gullible people have lost their life savings speculating on them. I’d rather have a regulated banking system, despite its drawbacks.


You are not going to make it.


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## The Skipper (Nov 26, 2014)

MataMata said:


> I have a Caxia Hola bank A/C with credit card and apart from one single occasion where I transferred some money to UK in 4 years have not paid a single cent in fees or charges.


We had not paid any charges either in all the time we have been with Bancaja/Bankia but we had a shock last September when CaixaBank in Alicante tried to charge us €700 for a banker's draft even though our local (ex-Bankia) branch had told us the fee would be €50! We are still arguing about that but our old Bankia branch is now closed and the person who told us the fee would be €50 is no longer around! Last week we received a call from CaixaBank asking us to make an appointment because they wanted to discuss the new current account charges that were being introduced in June. That is why I am now exploring the possibility of changing banks.


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## Localizer (Jun 23, 2016)

I'm in the process of moving out of Sabadell to Openbank .... still migrating across, but it looks good so far for my needs - admittedly we require quite a simple bank account in spain - just a debit card, direct debit processing, ATM usage and the ability to receive funds, all of which are fee free (Santander ATMs in the case of cash withdrawals). 
There are bolt on products/features - credit cards, mortgages and investment tools - which do incur some level of fees.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Sandiegosurf said:


> You are not going to make it.


Make what?


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## jakethepeg (Oct 24, 2014)

Hmm, Bitcoin. High of E 58,119, low of E 25,181 in the last year. Simply a speculative product at the moment, about as useful for everyday finance as Tulips in Holland in the 17th century. However I do think that banks are a rip off, they charge us to lend our money to other people at a profit


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Bitcoin is being primarily used as a speculative item but this will change. Remember it took 50 years for cars to take off. Eventually block chain technology will make many things decentralized. This will eliminate alot of political interference and corporate control over our lives. It will happen in the next 20 years. Banks will desperately try and either scare us about cryptocurrencies or join forces with governments who will do the same or they will try and get in on the action but the fact that they wo t be able to control it will severely limit their function in our economies.


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## jakethepeg (Oct 24, 2014)

kaipa said:


> Bitcoin is being primarily used as a speculative item but this will change. Remember it took 50 years for cars to take off. Eventually block chain technology will make many things decentralized. This will eliminate alot of political interference and corporate control over our lives. It will happen in the next 20 years. Banks will desperately try and either scare us about cryptocurrencies or join forces with governments who will do the same or they will try and get in on the action but the fact that they wo t be able to control it will severely limit their function in our economies.


Virtually all currencies today are Fiat Currencies, defined as a type of money that is not backed by any commodity such as gold or silver, and typically declared by a decree from the government to be legal . These governments ostensibly have a responsibility to their citizens to provide stability and guarantee the value of it. However see hyperinflation in Zimbabwe, where notes with a face value of a trillion ZimBucks were issued. . Bitcoin does not have such a responsibility, and I would not be surprised to see it hacked on a grand scale, as has happened before. Btw , it did not take 50 years for cars to take off, I think you are confusing them with aeroplanes


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## tmarshall57 (Jan 17, 2017)

This is my experience with two commission free banks in Spain - written a few months ago and I'm still very pleased.









Opening commission free bank accounts in Spain - my...


Given the number of banks in Spain introducing or increasing their commissions or just providing bad service I thought that my recent experience may prove useful to others. I have no connection with either bank listed below. I needed a Spanish bank account for non tax residents of Spain. My...




www.expatforum.com


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## xgarb (May 6, 2011)

_Uno de cada tres euros que ingresan los bancos ya procede del cobro de comisiones, según Adicae _









Uno de cada tres euros que ingresan los bancos ya procede del cobro de comisiones, según Adicae


La OCU lamenta la implantación de comisiones por retirada de efectivo en ventanilla por parte de algunos bancos



www.abc.es


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

jakethepeg said:


> Virtually all currencies today are Fiat Currencies, defined as a type of money that is not backed by any commodity such as gold or silver, and typically declared by a decree from the government to be legal . These governments ostensibly have a responsibility to their citizens to provide stability and guarantee the value of it. However see hyperinflation in Zimbabwe, where notes with a face value of a trillion ZimBucks were issued. . Bitcoin does not have such a responsibility, and I would not be surprised to see it hacked on a grand scale, as has happened before. Btw , it did not take 50 years for cars to take off, I think you are confusing them with aeroplanes


Bitcoin cant be hacked as it is a blockchain. Bitcoin exchanges can because they are centralized vaults. Bitcoin will only be able to produce 21 million coins so zero inflation- in fact its deflationary. Bitcoin doesn't need responsibility as it a community owned service. With ethereum blockchain will come the ability to do so much more transactional activities than just cryptocurrencies- it will democratise the world in a real sense. Imagine voting without any persons involved in the counting or recording. Imagine how disenfranchised big business and governments must be feeling.


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## MataMata (Nov 30, 2008)

The Skipper said:


> We had not paid any charges either in all the time we have been with Bancaja/Bankia but we had a shock last September when CaixaBank in Alicante tried to charge us €700 for a banker's draft even though our local (ex-Bankia) branch had told us the fee would be €50! We are still arguing about that but our old Bankia branch is now closed and the person who told us the fee would be €50 is no longer around! Last week we received a call from CaixaBank asking us to make an appointment because they wanted to discuss the new current account charges that were being introduced in June. That is why I am now exploring the possibility of changing banks.


I've had no such call - or had occasion to use a bankers draft - however at the end of the day having recently opened an A/C with Wise and got their debit card it would be little loss to me to close my Caxia A/C and rely on that and my UK debit/credit cards.

The only DD I have is for my broadband but I can just as easily pay that by cash or card at their office about 1km down the road from where I live.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

We called Caixabank to try to fully understand the new charges after starting in Caja Madrid, then Bankia and now with this shower ...
The previously free debit cards cannot be free any longer, as expected.
The new replacement cards (which work as credit cards where you choose the payment period between 2 days after transaction or end of month or financed) are free, but with conditions. If I remember correctly they are free for the first year, but then they will only be free if you make a certain number of transactions under the "credit" facility. So 100% free, no charge, no interest, is actually impossible long term.
Luckily we did confirm that the card contract is independent of the current account contract, so, we can keep our mortgage interest rate discounts (linked to the current account activity but not card dependent) but rescind the card contracts.
This essentially keeps the fees and interests at the same level as before Caixa took over.
It does mean of course that we will not be able to take cash from the ATM or pay any transactions with cards from that account, so we will just rely on transferring money out by regular transfer or Bizum, at least those (for the moment) remain free.


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## The Skipper (Nov 26, 2014)

Overandout said:


> We called Caixabank to try to fully understand the new charges after starting in Caja Madrid, then Bankia and now with this shower ...
> The previously free debit cards cannot be free any longer, as expected.
> The new replacement cards (which work as credit cards where you choose the payment period between 2 days after transaction or end of month or financed) are free, but with conditions. If I remember correctly they are free for the first year, but then they will only be free if you make a certain number of transactions under the "credit" facility. So 100% free, no charge, no interest, is actually impossible long term.
> Luckily we did confirm that the card contract is independent of the current account contract, so, we can keep our mortgage interest rate discounts (linked to the current account activity but not card dependent) but rescind the card contracts.
> ...


We have an appointment with CaixaBank next week so I will let you all know how we get on.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

We have now cancelled the Caixabank cards contract (well, we are in the process of...) and will retain only the mortgage and the account, and we have opened a current account with ING which gives us free debit cards. 
We will just have one salary that will go into into Caixabank to comply with the mortage requirements and to pay the monthly quota and one standing order (also a requirement of the mortage rate), and the rest of that salary will then be transfered out to ING to be used as current account balance.
Seems like a win-win at the moment, but there me a trap somewhere that we haven't foreseen!


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Warning. Anyone using Caixa bank and previous was Bankia who receives an email saying that their debit card will be blocked if they dont register using the fields provided: it's a scam. . It is a very convincing email but the fact that it says you have 24 hours is the give away!!!


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## The Skipper (Nov 26, 2014)

The Skipper said:


> We have an appointment with CaixaBank next week so I will let you all know how we get on.


We had our appointment with CaixaBank yesterday. They told us that we would now have to pay €36 a year each to retain our debit cards. Our credit cards remain free. We asked how we could withdraw cash from an ATM with our credit cards without charge and were assured that this is possible by selecting our current account as the source of the funds (ie, the credit card would function as a debit card in this instance). So, by surrendering our debit cards we can now continue to enjoy free banking with CaixaBank. We'll see how it goes!


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

The Skipper said:


> We had our appointment with CaixaBank yesterday. They told us that we would now have to pay €36 a year each to retain our debit cards. Our credit cards remain free. We asked how we could withdraw cash from an ATM with our credit cards without charge and were assured that this is possible by selecting our current account as the source of the funds (ie, the credit card would function as a debit card in this instance). So, by surrendering our debit cards we can now continue to enjoy free banking with CaixaBank. We'll see how it goes!


You might want to check the conditions of the "credit" card they offer. Your proposed contract might be different but in ours only one card for the account is free, we would have had to have paid for the second card. 
Also we were a bit worried about some of the conditions imposed in the contract they sent us in order for that 1 free card to remain free after the first year.
If we weren't prepared to meet those conditions the ""free" card they offered us was actually more expensive (48€ per year) than the debit cards we originally had (36€)! 
The way we saw it was that we were passing from 2 free debit cards to one free credit card and one 48€ credt card for 1 year, then possibly two 48€ cards per year thereafter. Not for us thanks.


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## DonMarco (Nov 20, 2016)

Is it not a fact that some companies will not accept Debit Cards for online purchases? I've had this problem in the passed but never with a Credit Card.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

DonMarco said:


> Is it not a fact that some companies will not accept Debit Cards for online purchases? I've had this problem in the passed but never with a Credit Card.


I haven't had that problem personally, but the excuse that I was given by the Caixabank manager that I spoke to was that "Debit cards are only used in Spain now and when our customers travel abroad the debit cards are rejected because in other countries everyone uses credit cards".
That's clealry utter tosh and my response anyway was that I did indeed want a credit card, but not at 48€ per card per year when other entities give them for free.


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## DonMarco (Nov 20, 2016)

Overandout said:


> I haven't had that problem personally,


Well the car hire company I used at Malaga airport a month ago would only accept Credit Cards.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

I think the problem only applies to services where a company might "reserve" an amount on your credit card, which I know car hire companies often do, and also hotels where payment might not be taken at the time of booking but the hotel reserves the cost on a credit card. They can't do that with a debit card. But I've never had a problem using a debit card online to buy other things.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Yes, indeed, I misunderstood the point. 
Of course for hotels and car hires I would never expect the company to acccept debit cards when what the want is just to block credit on a credit card.
Although when I lost my wallet prior to my trip to the UK at Xmas the car hire company did say that they would accept payment of the full deposit on a debit card and return it upon the end of the hire period if I couldn't get a replacement credit card in time. The issue there is not so much that they won't accept it, its just that you need that actual balance to be available for the transaction to be accepted.
For online purchases without deposits or guarantees I have never had a debit card refused. Nor have I had a debit card refused when abroad.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Overandout said:


> For online purchases without deposits or guarantees I have never had a debit card refused. Nor have I had a debit card refused when abroad.


No, nor have I. A few times I have paid for things with my debit card that I could not have used my credit card for, because the cost would have been more than my credit limit.


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## tardigrade (May 23, 2021)

Is it true that the post office here in Spain now offers a bank account?


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

tardigrade said:


> Is it true that the post office here in Spain now offers a bank account?


Haven't heard of that, but they do offer a pre-paid debit card (Mastercard) for €6. 








Correos Pre-Paid Card - Secure shopping and control of your spending


A Correos Pre-Paid Card is the safest option for shopping online and at millions of businesses around the world. Take it with you on holiday and control your spending




www.correos.es


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## tardigrade (May 23, 2021)

here it is






Ventajas – Correos Prepago







www.correosprepago.es


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Might it be this you were thinking of?









Las oficinas de Correos prestarán servicios bancarios en pueblos donde no haya sucursales


También contempla convertirlas en 'ventanilla' de todas las administraciones públicas para que los ciudadanos puedan realizar distintos trámites, desde renovar licencias de caza hasta gestiones con Hacienda | Cadena SER




cadenaser.com


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## xgarb (May 6, 2011)

Looks like Caja Rural have joined the other banks in trying to lose their customers to the commission-free online banks.

1. Sin Comisión de Administración. (what does that mean? No admin charge so what is the next one? Charge for the electricity used for the few kbs of my data on their system?)
2. Comisión de Mantenimiento: 30 €/trimestre.
3. Comisión por Emisión de Transferencias: 
• Emisión de transferencias SEPA, Mismo día e Inmediata en Euros: 
✔ Desde nuestras oficinas: 0,40% del importe transferido (mínimo 4 € y máximo 300 €). 
✔ Desde ruralvía y cajero automático: 0,20% del importe transferido (mínimo 2 € y máximo 150 €).
• Emisión de transferencias internas entre distintos titulares: 
✔ Desde nuestras oficinas: 1,50 € por transferencia. 
✔ Desde ruralvía y cajero automático: 0,50 € por transferencia. 

So €10 a month and €2 to move money (minimum) online.

Ah but if you are an autonomo, you don't pay any of this nonsense if...
• Tener domiciliados los Seguros Sociales en Caja Rural Granada. 
• Tener informado tu teléfono móvil a Caja Rural Granada. 
• Tener informado tu email a Caja Rural Granada. 
• Tener contratado el Buzón Virtual y el Servicio Ruralvía.
• Cumplir, además de los anteriores, tres cualesquiera de los siguientes requisitos: 
✔ Uso de la tarjeta de Débito o Crédito que estén asociadas a la cuenta donde tengas domiciliado el pago de tus Seguros Sociales: compras en comercios o reintegros, al menos, 5 veces en los 3 últimos meses. 
✔ Tener un saldo medio mensual en dicha cuenta mayor o igual a 2.000 €. 
✔ Pago de, al menos, 5 recibos domiciliados en los 3 últimos meses. 
✔ Las primas de los seguros* pagadas en los 12 últimos meses deberán ser superiores a 200 €. 
✔ Plan de Pensiones o Plan de Previsión Asegurado con un saldo medio 

So actually I probably will be OK because I use the bank for everything and don't make transfers from the account but... I have to switch on Buzon Virtual which means they only contact me through the app, they won't send emails or post. How much money does not sending emails save?

I feel sorry for the families and pensioners that use this bank and now will have €10 a month less to spend on essentials. I've said it before but the government should create a public bank that is free for pensioners and low income people to get basic banking.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

It seems so obvious that something needs to be done to protect older persons who cannot be expected to start using online methods and telephone banking for people with hearing problems. Governments in Europe should be forced to make all banks provide suitably safe methods for these people. Either that or a canny operator is soon going to work out that banking for pensioners could offer huge rewards


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## dancingspider (Mar 4, 2018)

Caxia in my experience are terrible.


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