# 5 years in Spain - residency options?



## membawa (Dec 16, 2019)

Hi,

I have a UK passport and have lived and worked in Spain for 5 years (worked 5 years solid with no gaps and have paid tax/social security contributions all that time). I have a green NIE card and I am on the padrón.

Is there anything else I need to do in order to 'cement' my residency status with a view to Brexit? I would like to stay in Spain permanently.

Thanks very much.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

membawa said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have a UK passport and have lived and worked in Spain for 5 years (worked 5 years solid with no gaps and have paid tax/social security contributions all that time). I have a green NIE card and I am on the padrón.
> 
> ...


Firstly, just to clarify a common error - you don't have a green NIE card as they simply do not exist.

You have a green card showing you've registered as a resident in Spain (this also shows your NIE). You may (or may not) also have a white A4 sheet with your NIE on.

At this moment, there is nothing else you need to do. If you want, you can apply to change the green card to one that specifically states 'permanente'.

After Brexit, you will have to apply for a TIE


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## membawa (Dec 16, 2019)

Thank you very much, I was worried there might be something I was missing.


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## tebo53 (Sep 18, 2014)

I am just applying for my permanent residency after living here a full five years. My solicitor is dealing with the procedures and paperwork. I've had to supply a variety of paperwork from the bank and new padron. They only deal with this now at Alicante so it will mean a trip there too. 

Steve


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Opinion is divided on this, but my personal reading and interpretation of the Royal Decree (covering a "no deal" exit) and more relevantly, the Spanish government website which explains how Spain will apply the exit deal, should it be ratified in EU / English law, indicates that there may be a difference in treatment at procedural level between UK residents in Spain who hold a "permanent" certificate, to those that hold a "normal" certificate.
This does seem to contradict the Immigration laws of Spain, which effectively recognise the "permanent" status of those who have resided for 5 years or more.
However, I think it is reasonable for the Spanish government to assume that those of us who have resided, and continue to reside for longer than 5 years will have exercised our right to change our registration to "permanent" status.
For me, it is simply a case that, if you do exercise that right and get a "permanent" certificate, the process may well be more "automatic" to getting the TIE under the terms of the Royal Decree law or the Withdraw Agreement (whichever will apply).
Not having a "permanent" certificate will not affect your legal status, but may require more paperwork / procedure when the time comes.
I would therefore recommend anyone who has the right to a permanent certificate to get it.

Note also that the new UK Government is trying to amend the proposed exit bill to prohibit the extension of the transition period (currently set until end 2020, but extendable by mutual consent), so that it will definitely end on 31st December 2020, which makes it a big challenge for Spain to issue the required TIEs within the transition period. Everything which we can do to get to the top of the list must be a good thing in my opinion.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

I thought you needed ten years of residence to be permanent.


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## tebo53 (Sep 18, 2014)

mrypg9 said:


> I thought you needed ten years of residence to be permanent.


Only 5 full years required 

Steve


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

Some police stations insist one MUST apply for a permanent EU Citizens Certificate after 5 years. They also insist one must produce proof of income and medical cover your do so, exactly as a new applicant would.


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## Love Karma (Oct 10, 2018)

Juan C said:


> Some police stations insist one MUST apply for a permanent EU Citizens Certificate after 5 years. They also insist one must produce proof of income and medical cover your do so, exactly as a new applicant would.


In what way do they "Insist"? Do they write to you or telephone you after 5 yrs insisting you must go as if you were a new applicant? When you say "some police stations" do you have a comprehensive list you could post?
As far as I'm aware my understanding is that under Spanish law you automatically attain permanent residency status after living legally in Spain for five years.You are then entitled to renew your resident certificate for one which states that you are a permanent resident ‘residente con caracter permanente’ or ‘residente comunitario permanente en España’. *You are not obliged by law to do so but you are entitled to do so.*


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## xgarb (May 6, 2011)

Juan C said:


> They also insist one must produce proof of income and medical cover your do so, exactly as a new applicant would.


I had this. They are supposed to just give you permanency but I had to prove income and medical (easy enough when you are an autonomo) before I could get the new status.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

xgarb said:


> I had this. They are supposed to just give you permanency but I had to prove income and medical (easy enough when you are an autonomo) before I could get the new status.


Why do you think that they are just supposed to give it to you? 
The requirements to live here as an EU citizen are ongoing permanent requirements which you must meet during your entire residency, not just when you first arrive. They have every right to ask you to prove that you comply whenever they want. When you walk in to make a change or any procedure, I think it is normal that they check.


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

Exgarb

Example of insist.

A woman who had registered 7 years previously wanted to register her newborn. She was told she could not do so until she renewed her registration. 

She did so and registered her child. 

Last month, five years on, she returned to renew her child’s registration. 

I have known many cases similar at a particular police station. 

I have argued with the officer in charge of the extranjería to the effect that one automatically becomes permanent after five years. I have produced paperwork to support my opinion. He has produced paperwork which supports his contention, including evidence one must produce proof of income and medical cover, just as a new applicant would. 

I have tried to get support for my opinion from Mijas Foreign Residents office but they agree with the police chief 

I also contacted the EU but they more or less agreed with the police chief too.


NB. In my post I was careful to say ‘some police stations’ insist, as I am aware some do not !


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

Just in passing

There was a mention of a frequent error made when referring to various Spanish paperwork. However in pointing that out, a frequent error was repeated. The green EU registration certificate, is not a card but a piece of flimsy green PAPER, which one is not even allowed to laminate.


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## membawa (Dec 16, 2019)

So, for proof of income and health insurance, could I just show my declaración de renta for proof of income? And would my social security payments be proof of medical cover?


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## membawa (Dec 16, 2019)

Forgot to add, I am actually looking forward to being able to get a TIE, hope all that happens soon. 

At least then we will have an actual proper ID card rather than relying on passport and that bit of green paper.


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

Membawa

As you are working it is simple you just prove you are working. That covers your income snd health requirements


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Yes,if you have a contract of work that is all you need to show. I was just asked for that and the padron. When I first applied using automino it was more complicated as they wanted proof that you had an income so they said I had to come back after 3 months. Found a job , got a contract , easy 5 minutes. Working is the easiest route to residency.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Juan C said:


> Membawa
> 
> As you are working it is simple you just prove you are working. That covers your income snd health requirements


When you complete the EX-18 there is a box which you should not tick which says that you do not consent to Extranjería consulting the national databases about your situation.

As long as you DON'T tick that, they will look up your social security and labour status when you present the EX-18 and if all is in order as you say, they will not ask you for any documents.


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## xgarb (May 6, 2011)

Overandout said:


> Why do you think that they are just supposed to give it to you?
> The requirements to live here as an EU citizen are ongoing permanent requirements which you must meet during your entire residency, not just when you first arrive. They have every right to ask you to prove that you comply whenever they want. When you walk in to make a change or any procedure, I think it is normal that they check.


Because that's what used to happen according to the lawyer I know here. Maybe they were supposed to check in the past and never did.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Overandout said:


> Why do you think that they are just supposed to give it to you?
> The requirements to live here as an EU citizen are ongoing permanent requirements which you must meet during your entire residency, not just when you first arrive. They have every right to ask you to prove that you comply whenever they want. When you walk in to make a change or any procedure, I think it is normal that they check.


When we changed our residency certificates to permanent ones in late 2014, we took no documents to the Extranjeria with us other than those listed in the Spanish Government official information (completed EX18 form, passport plus copy and Modelo 790 form confirming payment of the tasa), and the original residency certificate. We were not asked for any information at all regarding income or health cover

Residencia de carácter permanente - Ministerio del Interior

As far as I can see from that information, no other supporting documentation is supposed to be required if applying on the basis of having been legally resident in Spain for 5 years or more.


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

xgarb said:


> Because that's what used to happen according to the lawyer I know here. Maybe they were supposed to check in the past and never did.


If you read my post you will see at the police station I have in mind, they have done so for over 13 years. Maybe your lawyer needs to get up-date


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Lynn R said:


> When we changed our residency certificates to permanent ones in late 2014, we took no documents to the Extranjeria with us other than those listed in the Spanish Government official information (completed EX18 form, passport plus copy and Modelo 790 form confirming payment of the tasa), and the original residency certificate. We were not asked for any information at all regarding income or health cover
> 
> Residencia de carácter permanente - Ministerio del Interior
> 
> As far as I can see from that information, no other supporting documentation is supposed to be required if applying on the basis of having been legally resident in Spain for 5 years or more.


I am not disputing any of the other members' experiences, nor what government websites say. But I am just surprised that when a policeman (in the end those who work at extranjería are policemen / women) ask someone to prove that they are compliant with the law that directly applies to them, some people are surprised, or look for reasons why they should not have to... we chose to come and live in Spain and we are bound by the immigration laws, so I just don't see the issue.


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## xgarb (May 6, 2011)

Juan C said:


> If you read my post you will see at the police station I have in mind, they have done so for over 13 years. Maybe your lawyer needs to get up-date


Of course.. now they tell people they need to take the extra documents. Before they didn't need to.

As mentioned many times in the past... you have to do what the local office wants.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Lynn R said:


> When we changed our residency certificates to permanent ones in late 2014, we took no documents to the Extranjeria with us other than those listed in the Spanish Government official information (completed EX18 form, passport plus copy and Modelo 790 form confirming payment of the tasa), and the original residency certificate. We were not asked for any information at all regarding income or health cover
> 
> Residencia de carácter permanente - Ministerio del Interior
> 
> As far as I can see from that information, no other supporting documentation is supposed to be required if applying on the basis of having been legally resident in Spain for 5 years or more.



As I posted before, even the EU say its entirely up to the Government of any given country to decide what they want and don’t want.



Overandout said:


> I am not disputing any of the other members' experiences, nor what government websites say. But I am just surprised that when a policeman (in the end those who work at extranjería are policemen / women) ask someone to prove that they are compliant with the law that directly applies to them, some people are surprised, or look for reasons why they should not have to... we chose to come and live in Spain and we are bound by the immigration laws, so I just don't see the issue.


Agreed

We had to show everything again, and it’s no good quoting one region or a web site, if the office you are dealing with wants more evidence, as in our case, here for five plus years, working, healthcare covered, proof of income and a higher one than five years ago etc you have two choices. Don’t get, it or move somewhere where you think they don’t need it. I suspect we will go through the whole thing again for TIE cards, it is what is is, we live in Spain we can’t pick and chose which bits we are compliant with. 

The Spanish government, I thought, said a few months ago that the TIE cards would be issued as per regional needs....or similar? 

Our policeman said, that providing we are not waiting years for Brexit and if I apply for a TIE sooner than later my current paper work is okay, if not I start over again


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

What are people worried about.? You take along your papers , show that you can support yourself and that should be it. You are not going to be required to meet 3rd country requirements unless you register after Brexit


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## blondebob (Aug 16, 2019)

kaipa said:


> *What are people worried about.?* You take along your papers , show that you can support yourself and that should be it. You are not going to be required to meet 3rd country requirements unless you register after Brexit


As it looks like we will all regardless of status have to apply for the T.I.E in a time frame to be advised but probable within the next 12 months I think many people are concerned that when applying that they'll have to start afresh and adhere to the current 3rd Country Financial requirements. Which is fair enough but will impact on a great many that cannot meet those much higher figures. As we know individual offices interpret the rules differently and the easy option would be to treat us exactly the same as say a Canadian when applying for the T.I.E. My moto is plan for the worst and hope for the best


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

blondebob said:


> As it looks like we will all regardless of status have to apply for the T.I.E in a time frame to be advised but probable within the next 12 months I think many people are concerned that when applying that they'll have to start afresh and adhere to the current 3rd Country Financial requirements. Which is fair enough but will impact on a great many that cannot meet those much higher figures. As we know individual offices interpret the rules differently and the easy option would be to treat us exactly the same as say a Canadian when applying for the T.I.E. My moto is plan for the worst and hope for the best


Unless something changes, the time to change to a TIE for UK nationals will not be before the end of the transition period. It would seem logical (if that actually exists in Spain) that UK nationals will be called to apply for the new paperwork in an orderly fashion to avoid the system collapsing. Maybe the first will be those with surnames starting with letter `A` then with `B` etc.

As I understand it, those already resident in Spain, especially those who have lived here five or more years, are legally permanent residents under the EU regulations, thus apart from being required to have a TIE (residencia card) which will need renewing every ten years, not much will change.

My reasoning is based on : My wife who is non EU, has permanent residence status in Spain (with a TIE). If we divorce, when I die, etc. her permanent status is not affected.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

The Spanish Government, in all the guidance documents and the Royal Decree issued regarding what stance Spain will take on issues such as citizens' rights after Brexit, has placed great emphasis on such matters being dependent on reciprocity.

As the UK Government is not making EU citizens already resident in the UK subject to the same income requirements as non EU citizens who need visas when they apply for settled or pre-settled status, how could the Spanish Government impose the higher non-EU income requirements retrospectively on UK citizens who were legally resident in Spain prior to Brexit? That would not constitute reciprocal treatment.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

You will not need to meet non EU requirements. The Spanish government has already stipulated that those people with residency BEFORE Brexit will have a right to remain. If you were expected to meet non EU requirements there would be no need for both Spanish Government or UK gov to issue advice regarding being legally resident before the UK leaves. 

The Spanish Government has already published information pertaining to the rights of residents in the advent of a no deal and whilst it does not specify what papers will be required it is clear that those people with 5 years will be subject to a simple automatic process. Those with less will need to show they do not pose a burden to the state as exists for all EU citizens. 

So can I propose that we close this thread as we are just getting back to same old situation where we all have different ideas ( alot of people seem to have local policemen as friends !) and just wait to information is official or else we are stuck in another few months or a year of bloody Brexit


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## The Skipper (Nov 26, 2014)

Lynn R said:


> When we changed our residency certificates to permanent ones in late 2014, we took no documents to the Extranjeria with us other than those listed in the Spanish Government official information (completed EX18 form, passport plus copy and Modelo 790 form confirming payment of the tasa), and the original residency certificate. We were not asked for any information at all regarding income or health cover
> 
> Residencia de carácter permanente - Ministerio del Interior
> 
> As far as I can see from that information, no other supporting documentation is supposed to be required if applying on the basis of having been legally resident in Spain for 5 years or more.


My wife and I had the same experience at Alcoy police station in 2018. We presented only the completed EX18 form, passport, Modelo 790 form confirming payment of the tasa and the original residency certificate. Interestingly, the lady who handled our applications appeared to be a senior member of staff as she was training a young chap while processing our paperwork and she was interrupted twice by other members of staff seeking advice. She told us that we didn't really need to apply for permanent residence as this was automatic after living continuously in Spain for more than five years but when we explained that we were worried about the implications of Brexit she smiled and happily gave us the new small green cards confirming that we were permanent residents.


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

Lucky you Skipper

When I was trying to oppose the inspector in charge in the application office, I spoke to Comisario (the chief of police in that Comisaría ). He made a call to someone, then said the info I had been given the inspector was correct.


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## angkag (Oct 29, 2013)

The Skipper said:


> My wife and I had the same experience at Alcoy police station in 2018. We presented only the completed EX18 form, passport, Modelo 790 form confirming payment of the tasa and the original residency certificate. Interestingly, the lady who handled our applications appeared to be a senior member of staff as she was training a young chap while processing our paperwork and she was interrupted twice by other members of staff seeking advice. She told us that we didn't really need to apply for permanent residence as this was automatic after living continuously in Spain for more than five years but when we explained that we were worried about the implications of Brexit she smiled and happily gave us the new small green cards confirming that we were permanent residents.


I'm just now applying for an update to my paperwork to reflect permanent residence after being here 5 years. 

I have to apply in the Estepona office in Malaga, who informed my lawyer this morning 'we are not making appointments until after Brexit at the end of this month (January), and at this stage we do not know what paperwork we will be needing'.

My lawyer confirms that if dealing with immigration central (Madrid), the process is in accordance with EU law - simply passport, pay fee etc then paperwork updated - but that the regional offices rarely know the law and they all have their different requirements, which can change based on who is in charge at the time.

I think the inevitable result is that the regional offices will be even less sure of the law than before, and requirements become even more variable than previously.

i'll update when Estepona inform what documents they want in Feb.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

You will see a link to La Moncloa website. It has now been updated to deal with the UK leaving EU on 31st oc this month. Basically it stresses that anyone who has green card ( registered for residencia) prior to this are not required to do anything. The TIE will be issued to any new registrations after 31st until 30th Dec 2020 under existing EU member requirements. So I short you dont need to apply just now for an appointment ( you can if you want). Given the fact that it is clear that they wish to make appointments only for those who need to get residency before end of transition period it will just make it more difficult if everyone starts to do it. Also you dont need to update for permanent residency it is actually automatic. It's only if you want it stipulated on your card ( however your card is already dated and your information is available to anyone checking.) Finally your green card is not an official identification document. You dont need to carry it ( your spanish driving licence will suffice). As long as you can provide your NIE it will never be needed


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## angkag (Oct 29, 2013)

kaipa said:


> You will see a link to La Moncloa website. It has now been updated to deal with the UK leaving EU on 31st oc this month. Basically it stresses that anyone who has green card ( registered for residencia) prior to this are not required to do anything. The TIE will be issued to any new registrations after 31st until 30th Dec 2020 under existing EU member requirements. So I short you dont need to apply just now for an appointment ( you can if you want). Given the fact that it is clear that they wish to make appointments only for those who need to get residency before end of transition period it will just make it more difficult if everyone starts to do it. Also you dont need to update for permanent residency it is actually automatic. It's only if you want it stipulated on your card ( however your card is already dated and your information is available to anyone checking.) Finally your green card is not an official identification document. You dont need to carry it ( your spanish driving licence will suffice). As long as you can provide your NIE it will never be needed


It might even be that the regional offices end up being more compliant and more consistent than previously given all the updated communication on the subject - here's hoping.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

It should be noted that this update was done just this week and picked up by one of the regulars on this forum on Monday. I sent the link to my ex who works for a big law firm. They were unaware of it but have now started informing uk clients as to the arrangements. Therefore we can assume that some lawyers and assessors are not super aware of things and are still telling clients to arrange for new appointments when they are not necessary.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

kaipa said:


> You dont need to carry it ( your spanish driving licence will suffice). As long as you can provide your NIE it will never be needed


You may not need to carry it at all times to serve as ID, but there are circumstances in which it will be requested by the police. For example, I went to the Comisaria de Policia Nacional to make a denuncia following a break-in and had to produce it there as well as my passport (I don't have a driving licence).


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

The reason the police request ones NIE when you are making a report is because your details are on line so can be copied and thus it saves them time. It is of course shown on ones Spanish D/L. So that will usually work too.


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