# American thinking of moving to Netherlands



## ThinkingEurope (Aug 30, 2012)

Hello everyone,

Banking Professional (Risk Management), American, mid 40's single mother of 2 under 5 trying to move to the Netherlands (Rotterdam or Amsterdam). The idea is to raise the kids there and experience Europe together. What are my options:
1. Find a job - No idea how to go about it. Spoke to Undutchables and was told getting a work permit from abroad will be tough.
2. Go back to school for a graduate degree. Have one year of living expenses saved plus cost of tuition.
3. Other options?

Do not speak Dutch, but willing to learn.

Any suggestion will be greatly appreciated.
Thank you.


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## gbu (Apr 7, 2011)

Speak to Avocado Legal in Amsterdam (Jeremy Bierbach).
Google for details- brilliant guy, brilliant attitude. 
Good luck.


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## ThinkingEurope (Aug 30, 2012)

I will look him up. Thank you for your recommendation.


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## gbu (Apr 7, 2011)

ThinkingEurope said:


> I will look him up. Thank you for your recommendation.


No problem- we were very, very fortunate to have had him on our side. There seems to be a lot of (wilful?) ignorance of eu law around, which Jeremy eases through. Great value too. 

Sorry to gush on but you would have to understand what he's managed to do for us to appreciate!


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

The Dutch have always been real strict about making new arrivals learn Dutch. If you're serious about living in the Netherlands, you probably should get started now.

And better than going back to school, your employment potential would be enhanced if you could get some "international experience" in your current job - even if it just involved regular travel overseas to work with an international group of colleagues and/or clients.

Hiring from abroad is a risky business for any employer - expats wash out in large part because they can't (or won't) adapt to the differences in business (or general) culture outside their home countries. Having some sort of international experience and a foreign language makes you a much more viable candidate for a job anywhere overseas.
Cheers,
Bev


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## ThinkingEurope (Aug 30, 2012)

I do have international exposure. Naturalized U.S. citizen here. Have travelled extensively both personally and for work. My current employer has limited opportunities abroad. It's a great idea to start learning Dutch now. I have been to the Netherlands for a visit. Thank you for your response.


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## Mad Amster (Aug 31, 2012)

ThinkingEurope said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> Banking Professional (Risk Management), American, mid 40's single mother of 2 under 5 trying to move to the Netherlands (Rotterdam or Amsterdam). The idea is to raise the kids there and experience Europe together. What are my options:
> 1. Find a job - No idea how to go about it. Spoke to Undutchables and was told getting a work permit from abroad will be tough.
> ...


The major banks are.......

ING, Rabobank, ABNAmro, SNS They all have websites that have the naming convention bank name dot nl

On their sites they all have vacancy pages (vacatures) and an English version of the site. They also all have offices in the USA. If you have no joy with the Dutch offices, why not try their US offices and angle for a posting from there?


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## ThinkingEurope (Aug 30, 2012)

Thank you!


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## nicky29 (Nov 15, 2009)

I've been living in the Netherlands for almost two years and i speak about five words of Dutch..

No you don't need Dutch to live here, everyone speaks English. It's not a nice thing but it's true. Amsterdam is about 80% expats.

The only expats that I know who speak Dutch are those married to Dutcihies

My partner and i work in IT , all international companies and everything is conducted in English. There's about 3% Dutchies at my company -which ironically is dutch ,and the rest are expats.

You can get sponsored to come here by a company that would be the easiest. Just search for jobs online, monster, indeed, etc. There are loads of jobs here, especially in IT and Engineering. Pay is not great and cost of living is high, but it's a personal choice.
I came on an Aussie working visa then transferred to an EU partner visa.


Knowing what i know now about the Netherlands i would not have come here. I'd recommend London or Germany instead. But you must speak some German in Germany.


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## ThinkingEurope (Aug 30, 2012)

Thank you for the info. Though my current employer has presence in London, the opportunities are very limited. I will keep looking. I checked the cost of living comparison online and it's about 25% higher than my current city. Is one able to save with the salary assuming a modest lifestyle. My purpose is not to make money (otherwise I will stay put in the US) but to experience Europe. And give the kids a different view of the world. Everything in the US is driven solely by money.


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## ThinkingEurope (Aug 30, 2012)

Do you have a link to job search engines in English for opportunities in the Netherlands?


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## Mad Amster (Aug 31, 2012)

Dutch isn't a definite pre req on day 1. Most Dutch do speak English and other languages too. They do like to let you know that they speak those languages. When you first arrive they will gladly communicate in English or German or French or Spanish or whichever languages they speak (When kids start secondary education they all have French, German, Spanish and English lessons). The French or Spanish tends to get dropped when they start their 3rd year.

They will happily chat in your language....... for the first few years. However, 5 seems to be the magic number. If you still can't speak the lingo after 5 years, they look down on you as being some kind of inferior being.

Many people start courses but stop in the first year because everybody insists on speaking to them in their native tongue...... ergo, the main reason foreigners don't speak Dutch is that the Dutch don't give them the chance to practice.

When I first arrived I decided not to do a course but to immerse myself in Dutch life. I joined a football club and, the following summer, a cricket club and also tried to grasp as much as possible at work. I also went into a small bar round the corner 5 nights a week to learn Dutch. I had to come to an agreement with the locals in the bar. Night 1 English, night 2 Dutch etc. Otherwise they would have spoken English the whole time and I wouldn't have learned much Dutch at all.

If you are gifted in the language dept, by all means learn at work, at a sports club or in the bars as I did. If not, take a course and INSIST on the Dutch speaking Dutch to you.


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## ThinkingEurope (Aug 30, 2012)

Thank you! One big reason I'm considering the move is so that the kids can learn other languages. I like the fact that they have exposure to multiple European languages.. I'm going to look into learning the basic before we move.


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## nicky29 (Nov 15, 2009)

I don't have children but most of my coworkers do, so here are my experiences:
- your kids will need to go to an International school if they dont' speak Dutch. International schools have a wide array of teachers, not just Dutch. They are good but expensive.
Here they can learn another language, but really this can be done all over the world, I wouldn't come to Holland for this. Your kids probably won't speak Dutch as they will be with other expat kids who all speak English as a second language.

-Speaking Dutch- like poster above said. The Dutch are really weird about it, they will speak to you in English, while quietly complain that foreigners don't speak the language but if you go to an all Dutch gathering they will speak Dutch. I know people that have been here for ten years and speak Dutch and still the Dutch speak to them in English as a patronising way of showing off..
I don't get the fascination with speaking Dutch. it is only spoken here and in Belgium, there is really no advantage to speaking this in Europe. I would learn another language that is more common- Spanish or French, or even German. That is the language spoken by most natives in Europe, as Germany has the biggest population.

-It is a great place for exploring Europe sure. But this is something you don't realise until you live here: Schipol airport has one of the highest amount of taxes in Europe. this means flying out of here can be twice as expensive as flying out of another airport. Case in point- booking from KLM from here to Frankfurt is twice as much is being done from NL than if you do it from Germany. Try it on their website!
Sure there's cheaper airlines but you won't get anything below 100 Euros as a'bargain'. You can get trains but unless you book in advance they are also expensive. There is only another airport in Eindhoven (i think?) that has Ryan air but i would not recommend that.
Again another little NL trap expats don't know about- it is expensive to travel from here, you don't have the flexibility you have in London or Germany of various airports and loads of airlines flying around.
- Taxes- be prepared to pay a LOT of tax- not just income but council, water, garbage, fire fighters, you name it. I lose count of the ridiculous taxes we pay.

-health insurance- despite this being paid for by my work, i still have to pay for everything i do- a teeth cleaning to basic medication that was 'supposed' to be covered , as they've just changed legislation on making people pay for more medical costs. And my work pays 150Euro a month for my health insurance.. so it's not a cheap plan.

- Doctors. Oh god. where do i get started? i've not seen or heard more horror stories in my life about the medical treatment here. I almost died and got told to take paracetamol, had a friend with heart problems that got rushed to the hospital and said the same thing. I've heard so many horror stories, i dont' want to relieve. All expats i know go to their home country once a year for check ups and try to book serious appointments with German doctors. It's a paradox how the Dutch survive, the medical system here is a joke. A small example- after having a throat and ear infection for three weeks i had to basically fight the local huisart (doctor) for antibiotics then after i had a cough for two months he would not give me anything for it. I went to Aust, where the doctor told me that i needed a spray for the cough as it was damaging my vocal chords. ANy longer without treatments and i would have had permanent damage. Yes, over a cough. That's how ridiculous it can get. Read more here
The Dutch healthcare system < Healthcare | Expatica The Netherlands

-The Dutch are friendly enough when they want to be, but forget manners. You will be shoved out, pushed out of the way in all angles. Yesterday a woman half sat on me on the bus, i kid you not, She did not even flinch or acknowledge what she'd done. I can't stand this, almost two years on, i catch two buses to get to work and i get pushed and prodded daily and it drives me mad. 

I'm sorry if this all sounds negative..i've lived here for two years, i work in IT. I have an OK job, although i find the work environment really frustrating. It's very different to the UK, US or Aust. Like i said, most normal people don't stick around. Europeans survive better here because they can piss off to their home country as it's an hour away , so when they've had enough they just take a two hour flight home. Aussies and Americans don't have that luxury.
I would not have come here knowing everything I do now, i read bits and pieces on forums but thought it would be different for me, it wasn't. 
Knowing what i know now, I would go to the UK or Germany- if you're willing to learn a new language. 

hope this helps.. for a laugh google a website called 'stuff Dutch people like' very well written and so true.


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## ThinkingEurope (Aug 30, 2012)

Thank you for the info. I will put everything into consideration before making a final decision. London is expensive too. Germany is not an option for me


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## nicky29 (Nov 15, 2009)

no worries, i spoke to some colleagues about schools. There is a really good one in Amstelveen an international school - you cannot send your kids to dutch school if they don't speak Dutch.
At these international schools all teachers are native English speakers ,and my French colleagues said when her daughter had an Irish teacher she came home with an Irish accent 

You could always consider Belgium..or give the Netherlands a go if you're game. But I really recommend against it, unless things are really really bad for you in the US.


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## ThinkingEurope (Aug 30, 2012)

Thanks for looking into the school system. If we do move in the next 24 months, the kids will still be under 5 years old. I think they will have a better time integrating. Things are not so bad. I just need a change. I still have a job and all that, though there is the constant threat of lay off. I need more flexible schedule too to spend more time with the kids. That's why I'm thinking going back to school for a 2nd masters or/and PhD will be a better way to come in, then go back into the work force. The plan as I see it now is to spend about 5 to 10 years in Europe and then return to the US. I just need a way to earn a living at the same time, so as not to spend down savings.


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## ThinkingEurope (Aug 30, 2012)

The problem though with grad school is that it costs much more for an international, non-eu student. For EU nationals, it's ridiculously cheap.


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## nicky29 (Nov 15, 2009)

No worries, if you have more specific questions , PM me and i'll ask around. 
for flexibility in the work place you CANNOT beat Holland. They are a bunch of lazy bast*ards!  but it can work in your favour- you can work four days a week if you want, and they cannot turn you down. Even if you start at full time you can go down to 80% ie. four day week or 90% a nine day fortnight.
Most work places are pretty flexible, and will let you work from home here and there too.
Creche's are expensive, about 100 Euro a day i got told.
Just pic a nice family friendly area, if your kids are under 5 then they'll have no problem at all learning Dutch.
Dutch kids also get taught English at school, so they'll keep their English up.

Just be prepared for bureaucracy central, and the hard , long way of doing things. Also at work it's a bit like the wild west- everyone has an opinion and wants to be heard.It's exhausting, and at 5.01 everyoen is out the door no matter what. Expats maintain things here, get used to it> but the dutch have final say.
It can be good, for work life balance but bad for mental health  it's also not real, and this kind of culture does not exist in Aust , the UK or the US- but it's fun for a few years.


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