# Residencia And Healthcare



## Yorick (Jul 4, 2017)

I'm going for Residencia in August and puzzled about healthcare.

To get residencia I apparently need to show some private health cover. That is OK. But what then happens to my EHIC card ?

Can I still get healthcare in the UK?


Are then any good healthcare insurance providers?


TIA


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Yorick said:


> I'm going for Residencia in August and puzzled about healthcare.
> 
> To get residencia I apparently need to show some private health cover. That is OK. But what then happens to my EHIC card ?
> 
> ...


[Residency certificate not residencia]

As an early retiree, you will need private health care plus proof of income/savings.

Your existing EHIC will then not be accepted anywhere. You will need travel insurance for visits back to UK etc.


Look at Spanish health care providers like ASSSA, Sanitas or even some of the smaller ones.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

By applying for residency you are stating that Spain will be your home. You can't still have residency in the UK. This means that you shouldn't be able to access the NHS, however as the UK isn't quite as linked up with these things such as Sweden I don't suppose anyone will know if you return to the UK for treatment. Keep in mind though it isn't strictly legal and it might be seen as cheating the system. Remember how incensed people can be with the idea that Immigrants come to the UK to falsely abuse benefits. Well many UK expats sadly do the same


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Unfortunately. as an early retiree you will not be entitled to an EHIC from either the UK or Spain. My husband and I were in that position for 8 years until he became a state pensioner (UK state pensioners can get the S1 form which means the UK Government pays for their state healthcare in Spain and once registered they can apply for a UK-issued EHIC which covers them for treatment when visiting any EU country other than Spain, their country of residence). Those who are working or self-employed and paying social security contributions in Spain can get the Spanish version of the EHIC, called the TSE. But those who are early retired get neither and must rely on travel insurance.


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## Yorick (Jul 4, 2017)

Thanks all


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## Blanco53 (Mar 6, 2017)

kaipa said:


> By applying for residency you are stating that Spain will be your home.......


This is wrong.

All the Residence Certificate does is to provide the right to reside in Spain for a period of longer than three months. It shows that as an EU citizen you have produced evidence of sufficient financial means to support yourself (and your dependents) to live in Spain.

*IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT YOU ARE STATING THAT SPAIN IS YOUR HOME!!!*

I have scores of clients who visit Spain each year for between 90 to 182 days, who, as they are legally required to do, hold a Spanish Residence Certificate. Yet they are tax resident in the UK and retain all their UK benefits.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Blanco53 said:


> This is wrong.
> 
> All the Residence Certificate does is to provide the right to reside in Spain for a period of longer than three months. It shows that as an EU citizen you have produced evidence of sufficient financial means to support yourself (and your dependents) to live in Spain.
> 
> ...


BUT - registered as resident or not, once you've been here 90 consecutive days if you continue to use the EHIC you stand a VERY good chance of it being refused & having to pay for treatment. Spain regards you as resident at that point, & since the EHIC is for holidaymakers, they will no longer accept it, if a flag goes up in the system that the pattern of use suggests residence.

Also, once you have been out of the UK for 6 months (maybe even travelling around, not staying anywhere long enough to have to register), as far as the UK is concerned, you will no longer be resident there, & again, the EHIC will be invalid. 

So even if Spain accepts it, the UK might refuse to pay the bill, & Spain will send the bill to you.


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## Blanco53 (Mar 6, 2017)

xabiachica said:


> BUT - registered as resident or not, once you've been here 90 consecutive days if you continue to use the EHIC you stand a VERY good chance of it being refused & having to pay for treatment. Spain regards you as resident at that point, & since the EHIC is for holidaymakers, they will no longer accept it, if a flag goes up in the system that the pattern of use suggests residence.
> 
> Also, once you have been out of the UK for 6 months (maybe even travelling around, not staying anywhere long enough to have to register), as far as the UK is concerned, you will no longer be resident there, & again, the EHIC will be invalid.
> 
> So even if Spain accepts it, the UK might refuse to pay the bill, & Spain will send the bill to you.


You are right and wrong!

You are absolutely correct that if you live in Spain for more than 183 days then you are tax resident in Spain, and you loose UK benefits, including the EHIC. 

However for those living in Spain for more than 3 months, but less than 183 days then they can continue to enjoy full UK benefits (including the use of the EHIC) as they are tax resident in the UK.

As part of my job, I have written confirmation from the Overseas Healthcare Team at the DWP which confirms this position.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Blanco53 said:


> You are right and wrong!
> 
> You are absolutely correct that if you live in Spain for more than 183 days then you are tax resident in Spain, and you loose UK benefits, including the EHIC.
> 
> ...


No, I'm just right...out of the UK for 6 months & you lose healthcare including the EHIC as you are no longer tax resident.

In Spain for 90+ days & as far as SPAIN is concerned you are resident, and if the system flags the EHIC, they will refuse it - which is nothing to do with the DWP.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Blanco 53. Are you a qualified Spanish lawyer or an assessor? Your argument seems as if you trying to bend the meaning of the law in order to generate a client base. This is the first time my wife who is a Fiscal advisor has seen this interpretation of the law and is interested to know if you have tested it legally


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## Blanco53 (Mar 6, 2017)

kaipa said:


> Blanco 53. Are you a qualified Spanish lawyer or an assessor? Your argument seems as if you trying to bend the meaning of the law in order to generate a client base. This is the first time my wife who is a Fiscal advisor has seen this interpretation of the law and is interested to know if you have tested it legally


Yes, I have many clients who use my services, a number in particular who are euphemistically referred to as snowbirds. They travel out for the winter spending between 4-6 months in Spain, but always less than 182 days. 

As you will know Royal Decree 240/07 requires that all EU citizens planning to reside in Spain for more than 3 months need to register in person at the Oficina de Extranjeros.

My clients have no intention of becoming permanently resident in Spain, but as they are staying in Spain for 3 months plus, registration is a legal requirement. In order that my clients were not disadvantaged and end up on the wrong side of the law, I initially wrote to the necessary agencies both here and in the UK to gain their understanding of the position. After much toing and froing, I had two letters that could support my clients' applications.

I use this at Oficina de Extranjeros, and they are more than satisfied.

My clients are left in no doubt by both me and the Oficina de Extranjeros that if they stay longer than 183 days they will become Spanish Tax Resident, and no longer enjoy the UK benefits.

To date, there have been no issues!


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## Blanco53 (Mar 6, 2017)

xabiachica said:


> No, I'm just right...out of the UK for 6 months & you lose healthcare as you are no longer tax resident.
> 
> In Spain for 90+ days & as far as SPAIN is concerned you are resident, and if the system flags the EHIC, they will refuse it - which is nothing to do with the DWP.


No, I fear it's you that is wrong.

Please see my reply above.

A number of my clients have used their EHIC without a problem. As they say, the proof is in the pudding!!!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Blanco53 said:


> No, I fear it's you that is wrong.
> 
> Please see my reply above.
> 
> A number of my clients have used their EHIC without a problem. As they say, the proof is in the pudding!!!


Yes people do get away with it, especially if they hardly use it - but not everyone does.

The proof, as you say, is in the pudding, & I personallly know people whose EHICs have been refused. Including my own father who was taken ill when visiting & was unable to leave. It took a while to sort out his S1 (which arrived just after he died) & therefore his resident status.

As soon as he'd been using his EHIC for 3 months i received a phone call to tell me that it would no longer be accepted, because my father was now a resident. I explained that we were waiting for the S1 & they continued to treat him. 

I know others who have had their cards refused too, in similar circumstances. Also others who have had theirs refused even though they were simply frequent visitors for a couple of weeks at a time.They could prove this, & the cards were again accepted.


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## Blanco53 (Mar 6, 2017)

xabiachica said:


> Yes people do get away with it, especially if they hardly use it - but not everyone does.
> 
> The proof, as you say, is in the pudding, & I personallly know people whose EHICs have been refused. Including my own father who was taken ill when visiting & was unable to leave. It took a while to sort out his S1 (which arrived just after he died) & therefore his resident status.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry for your loss.

I can only speak from professional experience. The applications that I have been involved with have been accepted by Oficina de Extranjeros, with appropriate documentation confirming that my clients can rely on UK benefits, providing their visit(s) do not exceed 183 days a year.

I have 100% application success rate, and my clients are more than happy and the authorities both here and in the UK satisfied with arrangements.

This, of course, has a relatively short life span as things will change in March 2019. Awaiting Developments!


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

kaipa said:


> Blanco 53. Are you a qualified Spanish lawyer or an assessor? Your argument seems as if you trying to bend the meaning of the law in order to generate a client base. This is the first time my wife who is a Fiscal advisor has seen this interpretation of the law and is interested to know if you have tested it legally





Blanco53 said:


> Yes, I have many clients who use my services, a number in particular who are euphemistically referred to as snowbirds. They travel out for the winter spending between 4-6 months in Spain, but always less than 182 days.
> 
> As you will know Royal Decree 240/07 requires that all EU citizens planning to reside in Spain for more than 3 months need to register in person at the Oficina de Extranjeros.
> 
> ...


To which question was it a yes to, Yes you are a qualified Spanish lawyer or assessor or was that a yes to the rest of the post? because that point is very important, especially when giving out advice, that you deem unequivocally correct and to be the absolute legal position, with no ramifications for those who are looking to move here for over the three month period. 

If you are a qualified Spanish lawyer or assessor, then no doubt you can back up, with formal letters from the relevant Spanish authorities, that this is a way around the law as it stands now. However if you are an administrator, as you have mentioned before, that's a totally different matter. I would advocate that you should, caveat your declaration that an EHIC can get you a residency card, will cover you here for all medical matters and that the NHS will continue to cover you in the U.K. despite being registered as resident in another country, with a simple statement, stating, that in your opinion and in your experience at your local office this method works but can not be relied on throughout Spain because evidently it cannot.

I have just noted that in your final post you said " in your personal experience " that is the nub of the matter..... it doesn't make it a fact in law or practice, it's how you get round the issue for your clients who are here for what you and they presumably deem a long holiday, and from that perspective, what you say makes sense, clearly if ones on holiday, ones not really resident but the Spanish say you are and the majority of folks come on here asking questions about healthcare do with a view to living here permanently.

Going back to Kaipa have you tested it legally? Do your clients know that the EHIC could be refused at any point after a period of time. These are all very valid questions when giving and receiving advice especially in relation to healthcare, which a previous poster has said can have fairly dire consequences.

I'm interested in all these answers because one of my daughters is looking to move here temporarily and if she can avoid private healthcare and retain NHS care she'd be delighted. Do you just show the EHIC etc is there special paperwork etc


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Blanc 53. I don't want to get in a spat with you I just would like to fully understand how you reach this interpretation of the law as it seems so totally different from the view of my wife's employer which is a large spanish/ swedish law firm.

For example I know of one Swedish person who has residencia here but lives less than 183 days. So she doesn't make a Spanish declaration here but does take advantage of having a SIP card ( which I don't understand how she has this). Every 3 months she signs a form with the bank declaring herself as a non-resident to prevent her account being blocked. So as you see there is a certain amount of secrecy going on here. How do you get around this with your clients?. Surely they must register with their banks as residents which means the hacienda should see them as tax-residents here. If your position is correct then it begs the question why they have a non-resident status and a resident status seeing as you see it as meaning nothing and that everything depends on your tax status. Surely if you are resident in one country then that is your home. Can you say that you live in Spain but that you don't pay tax there because you live for more of the year in the UK but the UK isn't your home? Seems slightly weird to me. Maybe you should show us the letters you have confirming your position. The fact that there has been no problems as you say does not prove it is legal just that no one has been caught. 

Just as aside. Are you Spanish or British? Your English is clearly native and you have a knowledge of UK culture concordant with a native. However you must be a native Spanish speaker to be a qualified Spanish lawyer. Don't mean to pry but there aren't many people on this forum who are as qualified and skilled with languages as you.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

So just to get this straight. Blanco53: You are saying that having residencia because you reside for more than 90 days in Spain will not necessarily disbar you from receiving free HHS healthcare in the UK if you do not live in Spain for more than 183 days?
Interesting practical point is that in order to register on the NHS you have to provide proof of residency. Normally they ask for Council Tax forms or recent utility bills ( the last 3 months). So would you not have to lie a bit if you wanted to join a new practice and therefore would this not demonstrate a flaw in your argument. There must be countless other situations where similar problems arise which require the Snowbird to be economical with the truth. Maybe if you haven't lived in the UK you are unaware of how the system differs from Spain


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## dufushunka (Jun 26, 2017)

Blanco53 said:


> This is wrong.
> 
> All the Residence Certificate does is to provide the right to reside in Spain for a period of longer than three months. It shows that as an EU citizen you have produced evidence of sufficient financial means to support yourself (and your dependents) to live in Spain.
> 
> ...


Blanco 53

Could yo please contact me by return to find out more about your services? Do you have a website link?

My wife and I, non EU, are going to Spain for 6 months at the end of October and need assistance on getting a Residence Certificate. 

Thanks,

Lou


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

dufushunka said:


> Blanco 53
> 
> Could yo please contact me by return to find out more about your services? Do you have a website link?
> 
> ...


Please take this offline.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

dufushunka said:


> Blanco 53
> 
> Could yo please contact me by return to find out more about your services? Do you have a website link?
> 
> ...


If you are non-EU you won't be able to get a 'residence certificate' - you need a visa before you can do anything.

Contact your nearest Spanish Consulate & they will tell exactly what they require of you.


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## Michael Kelly (May 30, 2017)

xabiachica said:


> In Spain for 90+ days & as far as SPAIN is concerned you are resident.


When applying for the green card, there is the option "Residencia Temporal - No activo con recursos suficientes y seguro de enfermedad"


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## dufushunka (Jun 26, 2017)

xabiachica said:


> If you are non-EU you won't be able to get a 'residence certificate' - you need a visa before you can do anything.
> 
> Contact your nearest Spanish Consulate & they will tell exactly what they require of you.


xabiachica -

As a U S citizen, we can enter for 90 days without a Schengen Visa. Are you saying, in order to get an tourist extension to 180 days, for example, that we would have to get a Schengen Visa to enter Spain and then we could get an extension?

Below is from the Spain Embassy website -

"Procedures after entering Spain
Issued the visa, there are certain procedures that must be carried out necessarily in Spain.
Extensions of short-stay visas

An extension of stay in Spain can be obtained as long as the duration of your visa is less than 90 days. It is incumbent upon the Offices of Immigration and Police Stations to process and resolve such extensions. 


Foreign Identity Cards

When the duration of the stay or residence authorized in Spain has a duration of more than six months, the corresponding foreigner's identity card must be requested from the competent Police Station or Office of Foreigners within one month of entry into Spain. Holders of a residence and seasonal work visa are exempt from this obligation."

There was no mention on the website that extensions were restricted to EU citizens only.

I would still like to hear from Blanco 53 if she has any non EU clients that she has helped to get an extension.

Thanks,

Lou


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Michael Kelly said:


> When applying for the green card, there is the option "Residencia Temporal - No activo con recursos suficientes y seguro de enfermedad"


For the vast majority, residency is ' temporary' until such time as you have been resident for 5 years & at that point you have the right to permanent residency. Then & only then are you 'permanente' as opposed to 'temporal'.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

dufushunka said:


> xabiachica -
> 
> As a U S citizen, we can enter for 90 days without a Schengen Visa. Are you saying, in order to get an tourist extension to 180 days, for example, that we would have to get a Schengen Visa to enter Spain and then we could get an extension?
> 
> ...


If I were you I'd go to a qualified professional, not ask for help from someone on a Forum.
I recently tried to help an American friend who tried to do exactly what you presumably wish to do, i.e. extend a 90 day Schengen visa. He insisted on taking unqualified advice and ended up overstaying and on leaving being banned from returning in October when he had planned. He has been told by the Spanish authorities that he cannot return before late January.
There are real professionals with legal or other qualifications and people who speak good English and Spanish and help people fill in forms, probably people who think they can save money by cutting corners and not using a professional person.
Maybe everything goes well in most cases but when there are complications people usually turn to a real lawyer or whatever.
Using a non-professional is a bit like me getting my neighbour, who is good at DIY, to fix an electrical or plumbing fault or a problem with my car. Sometimes he might fix it OK, other times he might make the problem worse and incur a huge bill for me as I have to consult a 'real' plumber, mechanic or electrician.
The word 'professional' is very loosely used these days.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

dufushunka said:


> xabiachica -
> 
> As a U S citizen, we can enter for 90 days without a Schengen Visa. Are you saying, in order to get an tourist extension to 180 days, for example, that we would have to get a Schengen Visa to enter Spain and then we could get an extension?
> 
> ...


Yes that would be interesting to know - but s/he has posted that s/he isn't an immigration lawyer. What s/he seems to do is help people do something that the majority of people are quite capable of doing for themselves.

EU citizens don't need any kind of extension - they simply have the right to stay. It's a simple registration process which is required by the Spanish govt.

If as a non-EU citizen you arrive with or without a Schengen visa & wish to stay longer than 90 days you have to visit the extranjería & find out from them what they require. Afaik extensions are as rare as hens' teeth & only given in exceptional circumstances.

Do you have a link to the info you posted? 

This is from the Spanish Consulate in San Francisco, which is the one which usually has the most complete info.



> *I am a U.S. citizen, can I stay in Spain or in the Schengen States as a tourist for over 90 days?*
> No. You can only stay a maximum of 90 days within a period of 180 days since your first entry (eg. you enter Schengen Area on January 1st and stay 90 days in a row, then you can not enter again until July 1st.


FAQs - Visas


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> If I were you I'd go to a qualified professional, not ask for help from someone on a Forum.
> I recently tried to help an American friend who tried to do exactly what you presumably wish to do, i.e. extend a 90 day Schengen visa. He insisted on taking unqualified advice and ended up overstaying and on leaving being banned from returning in October when he had planned. He has been told by the Spanish authorities that he cannot return before late January.
> There are real professionals with legal or other qualifications and people who speak good English and Spanish and help people fill in forms, probably people who think they can save money by cutting corners and not using a professional person.
> Maybe everything goes well in most cases but when there are complications people usually turn to a real lawyer or whatever.
> ...


I wondered what had happened to your friend! 

Tbh he's lucky he didn't get a very long ban!


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## dufushunka (Jun 26, 2017)

Xabiachica and myrpg9

Thank you for your responses. 

We have always used professionals in the past like when we moved to Bermuda, the U.S., and Ecuador.

Prior to hiring, usually a lawyer, one should do their own due diligence to understand the matter at hand. Next step is to solicit references for a good representative before contracting them. I am at the early stages of this matter.

I am learning that getting a tourist visa extension is not a normal occurrence perhaps for non EU persons. Having said that, many do manage to achieve it - somehow.

Our other option is to go through the process of 'immigration' and then just leave before 183 days - I do not want the tax liability of Spanish permanent residence. I just want a long tourist visit.

Anyway, my investigation continues and many thanks for your input.

Lou


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## Michael Kelly (May 30, 2017)

xabiachica said:


> For the vast majority, residency is ' temporary' until such time as you have been resident for 5 years & at that point you have the right to permanent residency. Then & only then are you 'permanente' as opposed to 'temporal'.


I would disagree with you on this. I believe that "temporal" in this case means that a person does not spend the entire year living in Spain but rather comes and goes.

A pensioner wishing to have "Residencia permanente" must choose "Residencia continuada en España durante 5 años" - this option is not available to people who reside in Spain for just a few months each year.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Michael Kelly said:


> I would disagree with you on this. I believe that "temporal" in this case means that a person does not spend the entire year living in Spain but rather comes and goes.
> 
> A pensioner wishing to have "Residencia permanente" must choose "Residencia continuada en España durante 5 años" - this option is not available to people who reside in Spain for just a few months each year.


I believe Xabiachica is right. The option "Residencia continuada en España durante 5 años" is the one which you choose after you have already been resident for 5 years and are applying for a resident certificate "con carácter permanente". The clue is in "continuada" - past tense.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

xabiachica said:


> I wondered what had happened to your friend!
> 
> Tbh he's lucky he didn't get a very long ban!


He came twice and overstayed twice. First time by over three months, he exited without problem. Second time, problem!!
He was lucky. It was originally decided that he would have the first period of overstay added to the second period of overstay which would have meant a ban until May but he was lucky and got the shorter ban, this three months period of overstay.

Hopefully he will have learned his lesson. The 'professional' he consulted told him that as he had broken his Schengen stay by visiting the UK from Spain for a week his ninety day period began anew when he re-entered Spain from the UK.

He was constantly told to consult a lawyer but declined.


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## Michael Kelly (May 30, 2017)

Lynn R said:


> The option "Residencia continuada en España durante 5 años" is the one which you choose after you have already been resident for 5 years and are applying for a resident certificate "con carácter permanente". The clue is in "continuada" - past tense.


Is this not what I wrote? A person who stays just a few months each year in Spain cannot choose this option.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Michael Kelly said:


> Is this not what I wrote? A person who stays just a few months each year in Spain cannot choose this option.


I don't think so, no. You disagreed with Xabiachica when she said that residencia temporal applies to everyone until they have been resident in Spain for 5 years, and said:-

"I would disagree with you on this. I believe that "temporal" in this case means that a person does not spend the entire year living in Spain but rather comes and goes.

A pensioner wishing to have "Residencia permanente" must choose "Residencia continuada en España durante 5 años" - this option is not available to people who reside in Spain for just a few months each year."

Even if a pensioner arrives intending to spend the next 5 years or longer living in Spain, they cannot choose the "residencia continuada en España durante 5 años" initially - they must wait until they have been resident for 5 years before being able to do that.


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## Michael Kelly (May 30, 2017)

Lynn R said:


> Even if a pensioner arrives intending to spend the next 5 years or longer living in Spain, they cannot choose the "residencia continuada en España durante 5 años" initially - they must wait until they have been resident for 5 years before being able to do that.


While I fully agree with you, I am at a loss to understand what your point is.

Put it another way, what option does a "snowbird" choose on arriving in Spain and planning to stay for 5 months?


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Michael Kelly said:


> While I fully agree with you, I am at a loss to understand what your point is.
> 
> Put it another way, what option does a "snowbird" choose on arriving in Spain and planning to stay for 5 months?


I belong to the school of thought that people should neither register as resident, nor stay for longer than 90 days, if they don't intend to live in Spain on a year round basis. The people I know who "come and go" and don't want to become tax resident make sure that they keep their individual stays below 90 days and that they don't add up to 183 days or more during any one tax year.


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## Michael Kelly (May 30, 2017)

Lynn R said:


> and don't want to become tax resident make sure that they keep their individual stays below 90 days and that they don't add up to 183 days or more during any one tax year.


Does staying in Spain for more than 90 days at a time have any tax implication? (assuming that the yearly total is less than 183)


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Michael Kelly said:


> While I fully agree with you, I am at a loss to understand what your point is.
> 
> Put it another way, what option does a "snowbird" choose on arriving in Spain and planning to stay for 5 months?


A snowbird is expected to 'deregister' when they leave to return to live in their country of habitual residence.

There is the facility on the EX18 to do just this


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Michael Kelly said:


> Does staying in Spain for more than 90 days at a time have any tax implication? (assuming that the yearly total is less than 183)


Not in and of itself

But if hacienda were to decide that as a long time registered resident, you must therefore be tax resident, the onus would be on you to prove otherwise, rather than for them to prove that you were


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Michael Kelly said:


> Does staying in Spain for more than 90 days at a time have any tax implication? (assuming that the yearly total is less than 183)


No it doesn't (although I agree with Xabiachica's caveat) hence why I included the part about keeping the combined length of their stays below 183 days.

They keep their individual stays below 90 days to make sure they aren't required to register (and then deregister when they leave).

Of course we all know that these rules are widely flouted, and indeed many people who are resident all year round never bother to register at all.


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## Michael Kelly (May 30, 2017)

xabiachica said:


> Not in and of itself
> 
> But if hacienda were to decide that as a long time registered resident, you must therefore be tax resident, the onus would be on you to prove otherwise, rather than for them to prove that you were


So Hacienda has access to this data? Have you any example of them ever using such data to claim taxes from anyone?


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## Michael Kelly (May 30, 2017)

xabiachica said:


> A snowbird is expected to 'deregister' when they leave to return to live in their country of habitual residence.
> 
> There is the facility on the EX18 to do just this


The EX 18 also has "Período previsto de residencia en España"


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## Michael Kelly (May 30, 2017)

Lynn R said:


> They keep their individual stays below 90 days to make sure they aren't required to register (and then deregister when they leave).


What is the problem with registering and deregistering?


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Michael Kelly said:


> What is the problem with registering and deregistering?


As far as the people I know are concerned, it would be too much hassle, plus they would have to supply proof of sufficient resources to support themselves and private health insurance. At our local Extranjeria you have to arrive by 8.00 am at the latest to get one of the limited number of tickets issued each day, or risk being turned away and told to come back another day. If they are not planning to live in Spain and therefore have to go through that procedure only once, they certainly wouldn't want to do it twice over for every year they stay for over 3 months. If their stay is below 90 days they can legitimately rely on their EHIC for healthcare.


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## Michael Kelly (May 30, 2017)

Lynn R said:


> At our local Extranjeria you have to arrive by 8.00 am at the latest to get one of the limited number of tickets issued each day, or risk being turned away and told to come back another day.


If that is the case, it is no wonder that people "flout the system."

Actually, I would love to know how spanish people get on when they register as residents in northern european countries.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Michael Kelly said:


> If that is the case, it is no wonder that people "flout the system."
> 
> Actually, I would love to know how spanish people get on when they register as residents in northern european countries.


At least here, although the queuing is a pain, the application is a simple, single A4 sheet, the certificate of residency is issued on the spot, you never have to send your passport away and have it out of your possession for weeks or even months, and it only costs €10.40. Have you seen the form EU citizens have to fill in if they want to register as a resident in the UK (it's not compulsory but they can apply if they want proof of residency)? It's massive and umpteen supporting documents are demanded, they have to send in their original passport and pay 65 pounds.


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## Tigerlillie (Apr 7, 2015)

Lynn R said:


> At least here, although the queuing is a pain, the application is a simple, single A4 sheet, the certificate of residency is issued on the spot, you never have to send your passport away and have it out of your possession for weeks or even months, and it only costs €10.40. Have you seen the form EU citizens have to fill in if they want to register as a resident in the UK (it's not compulsory but they can apply if they want proof of residency)? It's massive and umpteen supporting documents are demanded, they have to send in their original passport and pay 65 pounds.


Although here in France it is not a requirement to register if you are an EU citizen, if one wishes to push it and get a 'CDS permanent' (permanent residency card) the cost is ZERO.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Lynn R said:


> As far as the people I know are concerned, it would be too much hassle, plus they would have to supply proof of sufficient resources to support themselves and private health insurance. At our local Extranjeria you have to arrive by 8.00 am at the latest to get one of the limited number of tickets issued each day, or risk being turned away and told to come back another day. If they are not planning to live in Spain and therefore have to go through that procedure only once, they certainly wouldn't want to do it twice over for every year they stay for over 3 months. If their stay is below 90 days they can legitimately rely on their EHIC for healthcare.



Which really has been the nub of this and the other thread..... whether or not EHIC is acceptable as proof of healthcare with i regards to residency....


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Michael Kelly said:


> So Hacienda has access to this data? Have you any example of them ever using such data to claim taxes from anyone?


I can't give you documented evidence, but certainly I know people in my town who have been registered on the padrón, but not as resident & not as tax resident, who have had the police knock on the door to inform them that they must either come off the padrón ( & prove that they don't live here), or get their registrations sorted out PDQ. IIRC they were given two weeks to do so. I don't know what happened as far as their irregular tax situation was concerned, but I do know that they registered as resident. 

Others were registered as resident but not on the padrón - various combinations of registered in one place, but not another - so yes, the different departments do have access to each others' data


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## Michael Kelly (May 30, 2017)

So the health services also have access to residency data? 

In this case a person who stayed for 4 months at a time could not use the health card but someone who stayed for two periods of 3 months and 2 months could.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Michael Kelly said:


> So the health services also have access to residency data?
> 
> In this case a person who stayed for 4 months at a time could not use the health card but someone who stayed for two periods of 3 months and 2 months could.


If an EHIC has regular use over a period of time exceeding 3 months, it's entirely possible that it will be refused. All doctor appointments are in the computer system! 


See my post from earlier in this very thread http://www.expatforum.com/expats/spain-expat-forum-expats-living-spain/1301602-residencia-healthcare-2.html#post12862218


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## Michael Kelly (May 30, 2017)

Ok, thanks for that info.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Due to the differences in opinions re EHIC and residency and healthcare , I actually took the time to write to the U.K. Government asking them about using the EHIC as a declared resident in Spain and keeping healthcare in the U.K. If registered as a resident in another EU country. Here is the reply, I have removed personal info





> Our ref: DE-
> 
> Dear Mrs
> 
> ...



So according to the UK government your EHIC will not cover you here if registered as a resident unless you have an S1. you can reside in Spain but if registered in another EU country the U.K. recognises that as your place of residency and from that I infer you are technically not eligible for NHS healthcare in the U.K. which is based on residency


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Megsmum said:


> Due to the differences in opinions re EHIC and residency and healthcare , I actually took the time to write to the U.K. Government asking them about using the EHIC zas a declared resident in Spain and keeping healthcare in the U.K. If registered as a resident in another EU country. Here is the reply, I have removed personal
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well well well ....exactly as we've been saying. 





Well most of us .....


Think I'll copy that info to the FAQs - thanks Megs


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

xabiachica said:


> Well well well ....exactly as we've been saying.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Your welcome

Thought I would go directly to the horse. I was impressed they responded pretty quickly

Ps please tidy up the scrappy final sentence, my fat fingers on the iPhone take away the full stop, add an apostrophe.....to NHS's. I don't want to be accused of poor English !


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Megsmum said:


> Your welcome
> 
> Thought I would go directly to the horse. I was impressed they responded pretty quickly
> 
> Ps please tidy up the scrappy final sentence, my fat fingers on the iPhone take away the full stop, add an apostrophe.....to NHS's. I don't want to be accused of poor English !


Bollocks!! We all understood you. You communicated. So your English was fit for purpose...

And excellent dogged determination to provide correct validated information...from the mouth of HMG. The organ grinder not the monkey, as a good old English saying goes.:music:


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Megsmum said:


> Due to the differences in opinions re EHIC and residency and healthcare , I actually took the time to write to the U.K. Government asking them about using the EHIC zas a declared resident in Spain and keeping healthcare in the U.K. If registered as a resident in another EU country. Here is the reply, I have removed personal
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Got it

So the moral of the story is....don't register as resident!!!!!



Lol, only joking folks


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## paperdetective (Oct 20, 2014)

Lynn R said:


> ...ut those who are early retired get neither and must rely on travel insurance.


Why would travel insurance provide coverage? At best if provides some emergency coverage, but certainly nothing for pre-existing conditions. And the travel insurance networks are usually very limited in to what docs and clinics one can access. Also, the idea is to have a defined travel period, not 'traveling for years'.
Is there any specific insurer and specific travel insurance product you can show that offers true health care?
The reality is that in Spain, if you do an early retirement, you can only buy private insurance in Spain (which also has many limitations like no access to public clinics, so academic and local Sergas clinics). Of course you could sign up to be and independent (autonomo) but it has huge tax consequences.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

paperdetective said:


> Of course you could sign up to be and independent (autonomo) but it has huge tax consequences.


Not as simple as you might think - you have to have a valid trade/profession before they will accept you as autonomo.

I have a number of properties for short and long-term let which generate income that we live off.. They would not allow me to be an autonomo on the basis of my business!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

paperdetective said:


> Why would travel insurance provide coverage? At best if provides some emergency coverage, but certainly nothing for pre-existing conditions. And the travel insurance networks are usually very limited in to what docs and clinics one can access. Also, the idea is to have a defined travel period, not 'traveling for years'.
> Is there any specific insurer and specific travel insurance product you can show that offers true health care?
> The reality is that in Spain, if you do an early retirement, you can only buy private insurance in Spain (which also has many limitations like no access to public clinics, so academic and local Sergas clinics). Of course you could sign up to be and independent (autonomo) but it has huge tax consequences.


Lynn was talking about travel insurance for travelling _outside_ Spain


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## paperdetective (Oct 20, 2014)

Strange. One can be resident in two countries but only registered in one? That is not technically possible.
Resident means 'being registered with government as a resident' No? How else would one provide proof?



Megsmum said:


> Due to the differences in opinions re EHIC and residency and healthcare , I actually took the time to write to the U.K. Government asking them about using the EHIC as a declared resident in Spain and keeping healthcare in the U.K. If registered as a resident in another EU country. Here is the reply, I have removed personal info
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

xabiachica said:


> Lynn was talking about travel insurance for travelling _outside_ Spain


I was indeed.

I AM early retired in Spain, so Paperdetective may rest assured that I am well aware that private health insurance is the only way for someone in that situation to satisfy the requirements for registering as a resident. 

My private health cover does include some cover for treatment whilst travelling outside Spain but it is limited, so it is best to have travel insurance as well (even now that I do have a UK-issued EHIC because I have an S1 as the dependant of a UK state pensioner).


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

paperdetective said:


> Why would travel insurance provide coverage? At best if provides some emergency coverage, but certainly nothing for pre-existing conditions. And the travel insurance networks are usually very limited in to what docs and clinics one can access. Also, the idea is to have a defined travel period, not 'traveling for years'.
> Is there any specific insurer and specific travel insurance product you can show that offers true health care?
> The reality is that in Spain, if you do an early retirement, you can only buy private insurance in Spain (which also has many limitations like no access to public clinics, so academic and local Sergas clinics). Of course you could sign up to be and independent (autonomo) but it has huge tax consequences.



Being autónomo does not have huge tax consequences..... what exactly are these huge consequences. Are you referring to autonomo social security payments?




paperdetective said:


> Strange. One can be resident in two countries but only registered in one? That is not technically possible.
> Resident means 'being registered with government as a resident' No? How else would one provide proof?


Yes it is. Being registered is the key


You can be on a " long holiday". Therefore they're required to have travel insurance or use the EHIC card. 

According to the U.K. government registration is the important factor in determining healthcare cover. This was about U.K. Residents registering in Spain and still remaining REGISTERED residents of the U.K. 

Those are not my words they are the words of the UK government. Technically possible or not that's how the U.K. See it. You come here register as a resident you are running the risk of losing your N.HS care. Come here register as a resident using ( in one office in Spain) your EHIC card as proof of healthcare you could end up with a hefty bill.

Up to each individual at the end of the day.

I'm early retired, I'm autónomo and apart from my monthly payments, of €269 which covers both myself and my husband I do not see HUGE tax consequences. Yes it's expensive but hey ho that's the choice you make. I'm sure Snikpoh would live to pay autonomo and not have private healthcare...... I think !


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## paperdetective (Oct 20, 2014)

The cost is not just 269 (I believe it is 285 as of 2017) a month, but the matter is usually too tricky not to involve a gestor or asesor and that is another 40-60 a month, plus there is dealing with IVA reporting and in general one has a bigger red flag on ones' back for Hacienda.
Of course, as long as one is not retired, it remains a dilemma. The quality of care for those 285 is not that great. Then it is the question if retaining an address in one's home country may not work better. I know many Dutch who do that. Benefits are too often not great here in Spain compared with those in the Netherlands. 
There is far more to it than the money one pays. It also matters what one gets for it.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

paperdetective said:


> The cost is not just 269 (I believe it is 285 as of 2017) a month, but the matter is usually ttoo tricky not to involve a gestor or asesor and that is another 40-60 a month, plus there is dealing with IVA reporting and in general one has a bigger red flag on ones' back for Hacienda.
> Of course, as long as one is not retired, it remains a dilemma. The quality of care for those 285 is not that great. Then it is the question if retaining an address in one's home country may not work better. I know many Dutch who do that. Benefits are too often not great here in Spain compared with those in the Netherlands.
> There is far more to it than the money oen pays. It also matters what one gets for it.


Maintaining an address in one country if they really live iin another, for the purposes of claiming benefits they would not be entitled to if they were not resident in the country where the address is, or to pay tax in a more advantageous system, is fraud and this forum does not encourage people to do things which are unlawful.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

paperdetective said:


> The cost is not just 269 (I believe it is 285 as of 2017) a month, but the matter is usually too tricky not to involve a gestor or asesor and that is another 40-60 a month, plus there is dealing with IVA reporting and in general one has a bigger red flag on ones' back for Hacienda.
> Of course, as long as one is not retired, it remains a dilemma. The quality of care for those 285 is not that great. Then it is the question if retaining an address in one's home country may not work better. I know many Dutch who do that. Benefits are too often not great here in Spain compared with those in the Netherlands.
> There is far more to it than the money one pays. It also matters what one gets for it.



I have no idea what you mean. Quality of care..... what quality of care, my husband and I get healthcare equal to those who live here, so far I have had no issues, plus I'm contributing to my future pension. My gestor charges €27 per return re autonomo and €80 for major tax returns, it's possible to reduce Gestor's costs if you do come of the legwork., I don't pay IVA so can't comment. 

Clearly many Spanish people also find autonomo payments high, but there have been recent reductions for startups, changes in going Baja etc. However it is what it is, and for some the healthcare and pension build up you get with autonomo is well worth it, although if you are struggling to run a business I can see the concerns but it's nothing 
to do with the quality of care you get here in Spain. As for benefits re Spain v Holland or the U.K. If you live here then you work within the rules here. As for keeping an address as a "backup " yep in know of brits who do this, I personally find it laughable to move to another country and the. Just pick the it's you want.... I have Dutch Friends here who complain about th level of copayments now required in The Netherlands re healthcare


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

I recently read this in a newsletter from Hotel Molino del Santo near Ronda. Is it correct?

there are more controls in place to limit this sector. Recent inspections at Molino have been much more rigorous than in the past which we think is good for everyone. Illegality means that workers have no rights and that risks are taken with
work conditions. Logically it would also mean that if everyone paid tax and social security then we would all pay a little less. The logic does not seem to translate into reality however as the cost of employing people is still very high and shows no signs of decreasing. Molino del Santo now pays in the region of 15000euros per month for the social security of its 25 employees – an average of 600euros per person. We think that is a lot. To be self-employed costs 343euros a month minimum irrespective of a person’s income or the hours worked...


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Isobella said:


> I recently read this in a newsletter from Hotel Molino del Santo near Ronda. Is it correct?
> 
> there are more controls in place to limit this sector. Recent inspections at Molino have been much more rigorous than in the past which we think is good for everyone. Illegality means that workers have no rights and that risks are taken with
> work conditions. Logically it would also mean that if everyone paid tax and social security then we would all pay a little less. The logic does not seem to translate into reality however as the cost of employing people is still very high and shows no signs of decreasing. Molino del Santo now pays in the region of 15000euros per month for the social security of its 25 employees – an average of 600euros per person. We think that is a lot. To be self-employed costs 343euros a month minimum irrespective of a person’s income or the hours worked...


I can't comment on the figures for employing someone, though I do know that it's expensive.

The figure of a minimum of 343€ a month for autónomo is wrong though.

I pay at the higher end & mine is around 290€ a month


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

xabiachica said:


> I can't comment on the figures for employing someone, though I do know that it's expensive.
> 
> The figure of a minimum of 343€ a month for autónomo is wrong though.
> 
> I pay at the higher end & mine is around 290€ a month


Although you can choose to pay more to (potentially) increase your benefits later.


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## CHRISJK (Jun 26, 2014)

Megsmum said:


> Due to the differences in opinions re EHIC and residency and healthcare , I actually took the time to write to the U.K. Government asking them about using the EHIC as a declared resident in Spain and keeping healthcare in the U.K. If registered as a resident in another EU country. Here is the reply, I have removed personal info
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 So my wife and I can use the EHIC card for healthcare in Spain if we Register as residents, because my wife receives a UK Government Pension and I am a Dependant of hers ? AND.... How long can we stay in Spain for each year ?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

CHRISJK said:


> So my wife and I can use the EHIC card for healthcare in Spain if we Register as residents, because my wife receives a UK Government Pension and I am a Dependant of hers ? AND.... How long can we stay in Spain for each year ?


No you can't use the EHIC to register as resident

You have to contact the DWP & ask for S1 forms for each of you, one for your wife & one for you as her dependent. You use those for registering for healthcare & when you register as resident

You can stay as long as you like


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

CHRISJK said:


> So my wife and I can use the EHIC card for healthcare in Spain if we Register as residents, because my wife receives a UK Government Pension and I am a Dependant of hers ? AND.... How long can we stay in Spain for each year ?





> Our ref: DE-
> 
> Dear Mrs
> 
> ...



No you can't you are either registered for healthcare here or in the U.K...... the key words being AND COVERED BY S1 FORM
either you live her permanently or you're on holiday. If permanent and a pensioner or a dependent of a pensioner you can - pre Brexit - de registere from NHS and join Spanish system if on holiday EHIC and or Private healthcare


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

I think you're both (@xabiachica and @megsmum) forgetting that as state pensioners they WILL be able to have an EHIC.

However, it will be a different one issued for pensioners and will only cover them for outside of Spain.

@megsmum - even the letter from DWP is wrong!



> A British person registered as a resident in Spain cannot use a UK-issued EHIC to pay for healthcare in Spain, unless they are a state pensioner, a posted worker, a dependant of either of the two and are covered by an S1 form.


EVEN if they are state pensioners, how can they use an EHIC for healthcare in Spain?


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## CHRISJK (Jun 26, 2014)

snikpoh said:


> I think you're both (@xabiachica and @megsmum) forgetting that as state pensioners they WILL be able to have an EHIC.
> 
> However, it will be a different one issued for pensioners and will only cover them for outside of Spain.
> 
> ...


I am now very confused, because the last few posters are contradicting each other ?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Nope - not forgetting it - it's simply a different issue

You cannot legitimately use the EHIC to register as resident in Spain

The email from the DWP is perhaps badly worded - but I read it that a state pensioner gets a UK issued EHIC - which of course they do - & it does go on to talk about the S1

If they were resident in France, then they would use the UK issued EHIC if they were on holiday in Spain


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

CHRISJK said:


> I am now very confused, because the last few posters are contradicting each other ?


It's simple really.


If you are in receipt of a UK state pension & wish to retire in Spain or any other EU country, the UK will issue with a form S1.

This form shows your country of residence that the UK will pick up the bill for your healthcare, once registered.


UK pensioners will also have a 'special' EHIC issued by the UK which they can use for healthcare needs on holiday in any other EU country

The EHIC cannot legitimately be used to cover the healthcare requirements of the Spanish govt when you register as resident


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

xabiachica said:


> Nope - not forgetting it - it's simply a different issue
> 
> You cannot legitimately use the EHIC to register as resident in Spain
> 
> ...



That's my interpretation as well


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