# Move family to Egypt



## lwob

Greetings,
I have questions but first some background...
My children, 16, 14 and 10, would like to learn Arabic and live in Egypt for two plus years. i am retired on a small fixed income. i doubt i can afford to live in expat areas and i am very sure i cannot afford international schools. we do not require a car. none of us own more than what fits in a backpack or small suitcase so theft is not an issue. we have been in China and Japan for the last eight years. the kids have gone to public schools usually. they speak, read and write four languages with varying degrees of proficiency.
my questions:
what city and district would you suggest?
what are the cost for a three bedroom apartment? less than $800US?
are the apartments furnished with beds and kitchen equipment (refrig, stove, oven)?
initial cost of lease? security deposit? 1st and last month rent?
normal lenght of lease? (here in harbin, china i have to pay the entire year in advance!)
any ideas on schools? 
have any of you experience in placing your non-arabic speaking children in public school?
do you know what i would pay for a native language tutor?
can i bring my chinese cat? lol
i am guessing i can do all this on a tourist visa?
any advice would be appreciated.
thanks


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## Peter Mitry

lwob said:


> Greetings,
> I have questions but first some background...
> My children, 16, 14 and 10, would like to learn Arabic and live in Egypt for two plus years. i am retired on a small fixed income. i doubt i can afford to live in expat areas and i am very sure i cannot afford international schools. we do not require a car. none of us own more than what fits in a backpack or small suitcase so theft is not an issue. we have been in China and Japan for the last eight years. the kids have gone to public schools usually. they speak, read and write four languages with varying degrees of proficiency.
> my questions:
> what city and district would you suggest?
> what are the cost for a three bedroom apartment? less than $800US?
> are the apartments furnished with beds and kitchen equipment (refrig, stove, oven)?
> initial cost of lease? security deposit? 1st and last month rent?
> normal lenght of lease? (here in harbin, china i have to pay the entire year in advance!)
> any ideas on schools?
> have any of you experience in placing your non-arabic speaking children in public school?
> do you know what i would pay for a native language tutor?
> can i bring my chinese cat? lol
> i am guessing i can do all this on a tourist visa?
> any advice would be appreciated.
> thanks


I think the first thing you need to decide is what you intend to do here? Many people moving to Cairo are probably on expat work contracts with a decent salary and will have a very different life to those coming here on a limited budget.

Rents in some areas are depressed at present due to the current uncertainties; we live in Hurghada and rent a four bed house with a garden for 500$ per month; however others are paying up to 1500$ or more, especially if you want to be on the beach. Normally you will pay one month rent in advance plus one month security deposit.

For foreigners most schools are private and the cost of a National school will vary depending on the age of your child but will probably average around 1500$ per annum per child. International schools will be between 45,000 - 80,000$ per annum.

Cars are not cheap, not even second hand ones, although fuel is around 33 cents a litre. Also Cairo is manic; you would need to be brave to drive there! Here in Hurghada driving is OK, just remember that many people have no insurance and that taxi drivers and mini bus drivers are complete maniacs!

Food costs depend very much on your ability to adapt; you can buy most things in the shops but be aware that imported items can be very expensive. Live like the local people and you will live very cheaply.

If you are prepared to adapt to the Egyptian lifestyle you will probably enjoy it!


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## meb01999

i was under the impression that only egyptian citizens could attend public schools here... i know many countries over here have that requirement.
i would check into that. i have always heard that even egyptians send their kids to private schools if they can...

maybe check out an azhari school.

you can easily find an apartment under $800 - but it won't be in the best area. find one near a metro stop or mini-bus area though - because cars are so so so pricey... my husband just saw a 30+ year old fiat for sale yesterday that was 30,000LE (a little over $5,000).


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## txlstewart

meb01999 said:


> i was under the impression that only egyptian citizens could attend public schools here... i know many countries over here have that requirement.
> i would check into that. i have always heard that even egyptians send their kids to private schools if they can...
> 
> maybe check out an azhari school.
> 
> you can easily find an apartment under $800 - but it won't be in the best area. find one near a metro stop or mini-bus area though - because cars are so so so pricey... my husband just saw a 30+ year old fiat for sale yesterday that was 30,000LE (a little over $5,000).


My apartment is a 3 bedroom with a rooftop terrace in Maadi Degla, and I pay less than $800 per month. It can be done in any area if you have time, patience, and a good Egyptian contact!


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## Maireadhoey

You mention your children want to learn Arabic, Egypt may not be the best place. My 16 year old does standard Arabic in school but with his friends and in fact all over Egypt they speak colloquial Arabic which is rather different. It may be better to choose another country without this complication if learning Arabic is the primary reason for your move.


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## lwob

thank you for the replies. to answer your question Peter, I will be doing in Egypt what I do anywhere. while the kids are at school the wife and I ride buses to someplace new and walk then catch the bus back if we can find it or get a taxi. it is cheap entertainment here in china too. the rest of my time is consumed by kids and eating! we usually watch a movie at night and go to bed early. 

we shop in the local food markets and cook at home. it has been difficult to find good fruit and veggies here and hope Egypt will have more to offer.

the rent situation sounds perfect. I need to get a map of Egypt or Cairo to see where you all are referring but it sounds like it is possible to stay inside my budget most places in Egypt. Txlsteward, how did you find a good Egyptian contact? it usually takes us several months before we find good local contacts

Schools are the last big hurdle. if I can get them in the national school system that would be ideal i think. I am a bit worried to put them in an azhari. can anyone comment on the azhari schools? I think I read in one thread I had to be Moslem to enroll them.

Has anyone used tutors for their children?

Thanks again.


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## MaidenScotland

In would say .. Under no circumstances should your children go to public school . Egyptians don't want to use public schools and send their children to fee paying if possible. Corporal punishment in schools is a daily occurrence.


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## lwob

Maireadhoey said:


> You mention your children want to learn Arabic, Egypt may not be the best place. My 16 year old does standard Arabic in school but with his friends and in fact all over Egypt they speak colloquial Arabic which is rather different. It may be better to choose another country without this complication if learning Arabic is the primary reason for your move.


how is your child doing in school? do you have him/her in an international school? yes children learning Arabic is the primary objective. i am certainly new at this but it was my understanding that each country has its own colloquial verbal Arabic form. thanks for the information i will check into it.


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## lwob

MaidenScotland said:


> In would say .. Under no circumstances should your children go to public school . Egyptians don't want to use public schools and send their children to fee paying if possible. Corporal punishment in schools is a daily occurrence.


 that's a sobering thought! they say they don't but both China and Japan can be a bit rough on kids too. my wife has discussed our views on corporal punishment more than once with the school authorities. anyway is it because of the corporal punishment or the quality of the education that Egyptians send their children to private schools? and what private schools do their children go to? i need something affordable. i am looking for the middle class Egyptian solution if there is one.


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## Peter Mitry

lwob said:


> that's a sobering thought! they say they don't but both China and Japan can be a bit rough on kids too. my wife has discussed our views on corporal punishment more than once with the school authorities. anyway is it because of the corporal punishment or the quality of the education that Egyptians send their children to private schools? and what private schools do their children go to? i need something affordable. i am looking for the middle class Egyptian solution if there is one.


Much will depend where you decide to locate; most expats live in Cairo if they are working for Multinational Groups, others are often in the teaching profession or at Universities.

Those coming to Hurghada & Sharm are generally coming for the weather and the relaxed lifestyle; you may find this a bit quiet after the hustle and bustle of China!

It will be easier to advise you on schools once you decide where you will live.


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## lwob

Peter Mitry said:


> Much will depend where you decide to locate; most expats live in Cairo if they are working for Multinational Groups, others are often in the teaching profession or at Universities.
> 
> Those coming to Hurghada & Sharm are generally coming for the weather and the relaxed lifestyle; you may find this a bit quiet after the hustle and bustle of China!
> 
> It will be easier to advise you on schools once you decide where you will live.


i have two concerns. one is safety and i think everyone is telling me this is not a concern with a minimim amount of due diligence. my other concern is a school i can afford. honestly the school does not have to be anything more than a place to learn Arabic (both the standard and the colloquial). it takes a year or two for my children to learn enough of the native language to understand what is being taught in the other classes. a problem i had here in harbin was putting the kids in the "best" school. no one would talk to them in chinese. they all speak excellent English (even the back row students) and they only wanted to practice their English. i had to move the older kids to a university for chinese classes. an affordable school is about $1500 per kid in my budget. my decision on where to live is primarily based on the cost of the schools. if hurghada has an inexpensive school i would love for them to grow up on the beach. if you know something good in hurghada or someone i can contact it would be most appreciated.
thanks.


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## qpmomma

On a side note: I have an American friend in Harbin!


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## Lanason

Quote
For foreigners most schools are private and the cost of a National school will vary depending on the age of your child but will probably average around 1500$ per annum per child. International schools will be between 45,000 - 80,000$ per annum.
Unquote 

Where do you get that huge number from ? the best international school in Cairo is about 20,000 dollars max per child


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## Deeana

lwob said:


> Greetings,
> I have questions but first some background...
> My children, 16, 14 and 10, would like to learn Arabic and live in Egypt for two plus years. i am retired on a small fixed income. i doubt i can afford to live in expat areas and i am very sure i cannot afford international schools. we do not require a car. none of us own more than what fits in a backpack or small suitcase so theft is not an issue. we have been in China and Japan for the last eight years. the kids have gone to public schools usually. they speak, read and write four languages with varying degrees of proficiency.
> my questions:
> what city and district would you suggest?
> what are the cost for a three bedroom apartment? less than $800US?
> are the apartments furnished with beds and kitchen equipment (refrig, stove, oven)?
> initial cost of lease? security deposit? 1st and last month rent?
> normal lenght of lease? (here in harbin, china i have to pay the entire year in advance!)
> any ideas on schools?
> have any of you experience in placing your non-arabic speaking children in public school?
> do you know what i would pay for a native language tutor?
> can i bring my chinese cat? lol
> i am guessing i can do all this on a tourist visa?
> any advice would be appreciated.
> thanks


Hi, your kids sound fantastic, good for them, being so adaptable and keen to learn. Not at all common these days. I have a few comments to share. I brought my own two children to live in Cairo when they were 14 and 12, in 1990 while the troubles in Kuwait and the gulf were on. We had a great time. I did not send them to school, but taught them (in the very loosest sense of the word) maths and English at home. They learnt Arabic informally from shops, maids and friends they made. My daughter joined the guides and great fun was had by all - diving in Sharm el Sheikh, dicing with death crossing the roads, horse-riding round the pyramids... They learnt more about life and the world from that year than I could have hoped for. (By the way, for those who think I ruined their lives by taking them out of school, they both went on to University, my daughter got a top degree in Chemical Engineering and now runs her own business, and my son got degrees in English and Philosophy and now teaches in private school, so they weren't held back educationally....)

I would suggest you consider Heliopolis in Cairo if you want some life. Lots going on, civilized accommodation at sensible prices. That's where we lived. Maadi is very ex-pat and quite dear, el Rehab is full of teachers and schools and might suit, lots of small modern apartments as opposed to the older housing stock in Heliopolis. I wouldn't recommend the more "local" parts at the moment, not that there is any real trouble, but the stresses of getting around would get you down. 

Don't bother, as you say, with a car. Use taxis, which are cheap, and reliable. You need to be born here to drive. My husband is Egyptian and he drives in a completely different way when we are here. It's extremely scary sometimes, but also exhilarating in a weird way. The biggest disadvantage to Cairo is the ridiculous amount of traffic. But there is music, art, cinema, shopping, food, restaurants, and 24 hour life in Cairo (or Alexandria, which I don't know at all) which you won't find in Hurgada I don't think. Or Sharm. You can get to beaches in a couple of hours from Cairo.

Just my stream of consciousness late tonight. Good luck! I'd go for it if I were you!


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## meb01999

i think you mentioned one of your children being 16? just so you know - that's typically the age that kids go to university here. i am not sure how many 16 year olds will be in secondary still.


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## aykalam

lwob said:


> Greetings,
> I have questions but first some background...
> My children, 16, 14 and 10, would like to learn Arabic and live in Egypt for two plus years. i am retired on a small fixed income. i doubt i can afford to live in expat areas and i am very sure i cannot afford international schools. we do not require a car. none of us own more than what fits in a backpack or small suitcase so theft is not an issue. we have been in China and Japan for the last eight years. the kids have gone to public schools usually. they speak, read and write four languages with varying degrees of proficiency.
> my questions:
> what city and district would you suggest?
> what are the cost for a three bedroom apartment? less than $800US?
> are the apartments furnished with beds and kitchen equipment (refrig, stove, oven)?
> initial cost of lease? security deposit? 1st and last month rent?
> normal lenght of lease? (here in harbin, china i have to pay the entire year in advance!)
> any ideas on schools?
> have any of you experience in placing your non-arabic speaking children in public school?
> do you know what i would pay for a native language tutor?
> can i bring my chinese cat? lol
> i am guessing i can do all this on a tourist visa?
> any advice would be appreciated.
> thanks


You don't mention whether your children or anyone of your children are girls. Life is not easy for teenage girls in Egypt, they are subjected to many restrictions that your family may or may not agree with. Think sexual harassment on a daily basis, especially if they look obviously foreign. And no, it has nothing to do with the way they dress. Your wife will most likely suffer this too if she goes out on her own, even if she were a muslim woman wearing the niqab. Please do not underestimate this problem when making your decision.

Also, public/national schools are awful here, so if you want quality education for your kids you will need to pay for it, private schools are not cheap here.


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## lwob

meb01999 said:


> i think you mentioned one of your children being 16? just so you know - that's typically the age that kids go to university here. i am not sure how many 16 year olds will be in secondary still.


Thank you for the info. i did not know the Egyptians start university so young.


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## lwob

aykalam said:


> You don't mention whether your children or anyone of your children are girls. Life is not easy for teenage girls in Egypt, they are subjected to many restrictions that your family may or may not agree with. Think sexual harassment on a daily basis, especially if they look obviously foreign. And no, it has nothing to do with the way they dress. Your wife will most likely suffer this too if she goes out on her own, even if she were a muslim woman wearing the niqab. Please do not underestimate this problem when making your decision.
> 
> Also, public/national schools are awful here, so if you want quality education for your kids you will need to pay for it, private schools are not cheap here.


yes my daughter is 16 and although she has had to put up with a considerable amount of prejudice she has not experienced much sexual harassment. could you be more specific on what type of harassment they will endure. if my daughter is always escorted by her brother or me will she still be harassed? Can you could tell me where, when and how my girl most likely will be harassed? how do you reduce your risk?


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## Peter Mitry

We live in Hurghada and my 12 year old grand daughter goes to El Gouna International School; to the best of my knowledge she has not experienced this harassment and she has never been so happy. She was born in Spain and has lived her entire life on the Costa del Sol so she is bilingual English/Spanish and is now learning Arabic.

We all have our concerns over life here, the cost of buying cars, the rising cost of living, the scarcity of fresh vegetables and (in Hurghada at least) the limited number of places to visit and the shopping opportunities which we take for granted in the West but this type of harassment has not been an issue for my family at least.


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## Trvls

lwob said:


> yes my daughter is 16 and although she has had to put up with a considerable amount of prejudice she has not experienced much sexual harassment. could you be more specific on what type of harassment they will endure. if my daughter is always escorted by her brother or me will she still be harassed? Can you could tell me where, when and how my girl most likely will be harassed? how do you reduce your risk?





lwob said:


> yes my daughter is 16 and although she has had to put up with a considerable amount of prejudice she has not experienced much sexual harassment. could you be more specific on what type of harassment they will endure. if my daughter is always escorted by her brother or me will she still be harassed? Can you could tell me where, when and how my girl most likely will be harassed? how do you reduce your risk?


Don't take cabs, always walk fast, enroll her in self defence-lessons or some martial art. I also always wear shoes I can run in and cycle rather than walk. From two days in Cairo, I had someone shouting "whore" at me down the street, countless catcalls and kissy noises, muttering gross stuff while walking behind me and someone grabbing my arm in a market. While sat on a distance bus stopped at a coffee shop, someone got off the other bus with his d*ck hanging out. I assume he was passing his time on the bus in that traditional arab male passtime of openly ******* while staring at some girl on the bus (seen it countless times in other arab countries). Definately worse in Cairo than in Hurghada, but then I've not been into Hurghada proper much other than on my bike and I get less harassment anywhere when cycling. And in the touristy areas, they just want you to buy their stuff or chat you up - annoying but not scary. It's not so bad where there are lots of women around and the subways feel safe, with their women-only carriages. But it's really not nice to be a girl here, especially a white one. 

I came here to learn Arabic as well, and keep asking myself why I would choose to live in a country where people shout whore at you as you walk down the street and where they seem to hate foreigners, but then I want to learn to see things from their perspective, so am sticking round a little bit.


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## Peter Mitry

Trvls said:


> Don't take cabs, always walk fast, enroll her in self defence-lessons or some martial art. I also always wear shoes I can run in and cycle rather than walk. From two days in Cairo, I had someone shouting "whore" at me down the street, countless catcalls and kissy noises, muttering gross stuff while walking behind me and someone grabbing my arm in a market. While sat on a distance bus stopped at a coffee shop, someone got off the other bus with his d*ck hanging out. I assume he was passing his time on the bus in that traditional arab male passtime of openly ******* while staring at some girl on the bus (seen it countless times in other arab countries). Definately worse in Cairo than in Hurghada, but then I've not been into Hurghada proper much other than on my bike and I get less harassment anywhere when cycling. And in the touristy areas, they just want you to buy their stuff or chat you up - annoying but not scary. It's not so bad where there are lots of women around and the subways feel safe, with their women-only carriages. But it's really not nice to be a girl here, especially a white one.
> 
> I came here to learn Arabic as well, and keep asking myself why I would choose to live in a country where people shout whore at you as you walk down the street and where they seem to hate foreigners, but then I want to learn to see things from their perspective, so am sticking round a little bit.


That's scary stuff and thank God, nothing like Hurghada, although I am sure that some of the tourists who walk around scantily dressed do get problems; although I guess that could be a problem anywhere.

I know that it is a male dominated society here and I absolutely hate that but I guess things are changing slowly.

It certainly seems to be more prevalent in the Muslim community; a 46 year old lawyer friend of mine, married to a 20 year old, will not even allow her to answer the door or the telephone! If someone knocks on the door of their apartment she has to ring her husband!! She is certainly not allowed to go shopping on her own and stays in the bedroom when her husband's friend or colleagues visit the flat.


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## MaidenScotland

Sexual harassment comes in many forms but it will come almost daily. The biggest bug bear for me is that no matter how empty the pathway is a male will need to bump into you, they just love to get up close and personal. Touching, groping, name calling, exposing themselves all goes on and anyone who has not had this happen must be blessed. I myself was grabbed at in the lift of my building... I lived in the police tower at the time. Asking how much for various sexual acts is always a good one with them and i tend to reply many more pounds than for your mother they then have the gall to be outraged and me birsmirking their mothers good name. The police will not be any help when this happens as they just subject you to more verbal abuse.


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## MaidenScotland

lwob said:


> yes my daughter is 16 and although she has had to put up with a considerable amount of prejudice she has not experienced much sexual harassment. could you be more specific on what type of harassment they will endure. if my daughter is always escorted by her brother or me will she still be harassed? Can you could tell me where, when and how my girl most likely will be harassed? how do you reduce your risk?


Always being escorted by you or her brother is impractical in the long term. In all honesty you just have to turn a blind eye and a deaf ear to what is going on and practise what egytian girls do... Go in pairs, you very rarely see Egyptian women on their own when out shopping.


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## lwob

Trvls said:


> Don't take cabs, always walk fast, enroll her in self defence-lessons or some martial art. I also always wear shoes I can run in and cycle rather than walk. From two days in Cairo, I had someone shouting "whore" at me down the street, countless catcalls and kissy noises, muttering gross stuff while walking behind me and someone grabbing my arm in a market. While sat on a distance bus stopped at a coffee shop, someone got off the other bus with his d*ck hanging out. I assume he was passing his time on the bus in that traditional arab male passtime of openly ******* while staring at some girl on the bus (seen it countless times in other arab countries). Definately worse in Cairo than in Hurghada, but then I've not been into Hurghada proper much other than on my bike and I get less harassment anywhere when cycling. And in the touristy areas, they just want you to buy their stuff or chat you up - annoying but not scary. It's not so bad where there are lots of women around and the subways feel safe, with their women-only carriages. But it's really not nice to be a girl here, especially a white one.
> 
> I came here to learn Arabic as well, and keep asking myself why I would choose to live in a country where people shout whore at you as you walk down the street and where they seem to hate foreigners, but then I want to learn to see things from their perspective, so am sticking round a little bit.


The bus incident would surely freak them out. but why not cabs? my wife and kids were born in central america so my wife, at least, is somewhat use to the catcalls and other noises. they always wear jeans and t-shirts but it sounds like it wouldn't matter if they were wearing muslim conservative attire. and it doesn't sound like there are too many ways to shield them from the harassment. please let know about the cab situation. because we are five if we take a cab we have to split up into two cabs which has always made me uncomfortable in any country.


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## Trvls

Peter Mitry said:


> That's scary stuff and thank God, nothing like Hurghada, although I am sure that some of the tourists who walk around scantily dressed do get problems; although I guess that could be a problem anywhere.
> 
> I know that it is a male dominated society here and I absolutely hate that but I guess things are changing slowly.
> 
> It certainly seems to be more prevalent in the Muslim community; a 46 year old lawyer friend of mine, married to a 20 year old, will not even allow her to answer the door or the telephone! If someone knocks on the door of their apartment she has to ring her husband!! She is certainly not allowed to go shopping on her own and stays in the bedroom when her husband's friend or colleagues visit the flat.


I wear baggy tshirts and jeans. I really don't think it's about how you dress. I've tried covering up from head to toe when I was in Luxor and got just as much grief. But then I have white skin and do walk around on my own, which is clearly something a whore would do.... I'm not so sure things are changing in women's favour.


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## Trvls

lwob said:


> The bus incident would surely freak them out. but why not cabs? my wife and kids were born in central america so my wife, at least, is somewhat use to the catcalls and other noises. they always wear jeans and t-shirts but it sounds like it wouldn't matter if they were wearing muslim conservative attire. and it doesn't sound like there are too many ways to shield them from the harassment. please let know about the cab situation. because we are five if we take a cab we have to split up into two cabs which has always made me uncomfortable in any country.


It's getting in a car with a stranger. 5 of you should be okay though (I meant for any of the women on their own - if your daughter ends up on her own somewhere, getting in a cab is not a safe option). I doubt they'd have a problem with all 5 of you squeezing in.


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## MaidenScotland

lwob said:


> The bus incident would surely freak them out. but why not cabs? my wife and kids were born in central america so my wife, at least, is somewhat use to the catcalls and other noises. they always wear jeans and t-shirts but it sounds like it wouldn't matter if they were wearing muslim conservative attire. and it doesn't sound like there are too many ways to shield them from the harassment. please let know about the cab situation. because we are five if we take a cab we have to split up into two cabs which has always made me uncomfortable in any country.


 Cab drivers can be the same as the man on the street but on the whole I have never really had much bother other than asking me if I want a special friend, women must not sit in the front nor engage in conversation as they view that as a come on, all five of you can go in the cab you just shuffle up. It doesn,t really matter how you are dressed, age, religion, size or colour you are a women in this sexually frustrated land.

Sent from my iPad using ExpatForum


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## aykalam

lwob said:


> yes my daughter is 16 and although she has had to put up with a considerable amount of prejudice she has not experienced much sexual harassment. could you be more specific on what type of harassment they will endure. if my daughter is always escorted by her brother or me will she still be harassed? Can you could tell me where, when and how my girl most likely will be harassed? how do you reduce your risk?


I see others have already given you an idea about what SH means in Egypt. You may want to read this article too:

One reader’s stories of sexual harassment in Egypt - Bikya Masr : Bikya Masr


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## MaidenScotland

I mentioned corporal punishment in schools being the norm and you seemed ok with this but do you really your child slapped across the face because they do not know the answer to a question. I would be more concerned what was happening to my child at school than worrying about catcalls in the street as you can avoid them but you have no power to protect your child once they walk through the school gates.

Sent from my iPad using ExpatForum


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## marenostrum

I don't want this post to provoke anyone but if it is so bad why do you ladies stay here?

I am not saying that what you are experiencing is not true but surely no job, lifestyle, weather condition etc etc is worth having to go through this **** is it.


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## MaidenScotland

marenostrum said:


> I don't want this post to provoke anyone but if it is so bad why do you ladies stay here?
> 
> I am not saying that what you are experiencing is not true but surely no job, lifestyle, weather condition etc etc is worth having to go through this **** is it.


As I said you learn to turn blind and deaf.... a typical male question, why not ask what can be done to educate these morons? This is a problem that egypt is going to have to address sooner rather than later as it does affect tourism I know people who say they will never return due to the harassment.

Sent from my iPad using ExpatForum


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## txlstewart

My partner is a former martial arts instructor. His advice to any female is to hit him hard in the bollucks and run away to a safe place as fast as you can. The arab men here "are evil and not from this century." (He has worked in the Middle East for over 15 years. He's from Scotland, and not one to quickly judge people.)


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## lwob

MaidenScotland said:


> I mentioned corporal punishment in schools being the norm and you seemed ok with this but do you really your child slapped across the face because they do not know the answer to a question. I would be more concerned what was happening to my child at school than worrying about catcalls in the street as you can avoid them but you have no power to protect your child once they walk through the school gates.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using ExpatForum


We have been dealing with coporal punishishment for more than eight years. usually it only happens once in a school if at all. our response to it has been immediate and usually over the top. (the last incident was a school bus driver chasing my 10 year old boy around with a knife threatening to hurt him. picture your response to that.) our routine is to talk to the principal before school starts. most schools have a written policy against coporal punishment. when it does happen we have known exactly who to go to in the school. i know nothing about Egypt or its customs but i have a sense i can control the abuse from teachers or, like you advised earlier, find a school that doesn't allow it. 
but this craziness of sexual harassment on the streets from all quarters all the time!! wow! will it make my daughter a stronger person to have to deal with it or dour and untrusting, reluctant or fearful to go out? do those fellings of abuse go away after you leave Egypt? 
my children want to learn Arabic. i am retired and have lots of time to walk her to school or take her shopping.


----------



## Trvls

marenostrum said:


> I don't want this post to provoke anyone but if it is so bad why do you ladies stay here?
> 
> I am not saying that what you are experiencing is not true but surely no job, lifestyle, weather condition etc etc is worth having to go through this **** is it.


I am here to learn, not to enjoy myself or relax. I would not be in Egypt if I were a hedonist. But it is the main reason I have stayed in Hurghada so long and keep putting off the inevitable move to Cairo.


----------



## MaidenScotland

lwob said:


> We have been dealing with coporal punishishment for more than eight years. usually it only happens once in a school if at all. our response to it has been immediate and usually over the top. (the last incident was a school bus driver chasing my 10 year old boy around with a knife threatening to hurt him. picture your response to that.) our routine is to talk to the principal before school starts. most schools have a written policy against coporal punishment. when it does happen we have known exactly who to go to in the school. i know nothing about Egypt or its customs but i have a sense i can control the abuse from teachers or, like you advised earlier, find a school that doesn't allow it.
> but this craziness of sexual harassment on the streets from all quarters all the time!! wow! will it make my daughter a stronger person to have to deal with it or dour and untrusting, reluctant or fearful to go out? do those fellings of abuse go away after you leave Egypt?
> my children want to learn Arabic. i am retired and have lots of time to walk her to school or take her shopping.



Sorry I have never advised to find a state school that does not use corporal punishment as I would guess it does not exist

The trial on manslaughter charges of Haitham Nabil Abdel-Hamid, a 23-year-old mathematics teacher at Saad Othman school in Alexandria, begins on 16 November.

Abdel-Hamid is accused of causing the unlawful death of 11-year-old Islam Amr on 27 October. When Amr refused to hold out his hand to be hit with a ruler along with 15 other students who had failed to do their homework Abdel-Hamid took him outside the classroom and beat him so severely that the 11-year-old died. In his defence Abdel-Hamid says he was only trying to "discipline the boy, not to kill him".

The forensic report indicated that the immediate cause of death was a kick to the stomach that left the second and fifth left ribs broken, resulting in a drop in blood pressure that led to heart failure. Amr was dead on arrival at hospital.

Though corporal punishment was banned by ministerial decree 591 issued in 1998 it remains common practice in state schools where hugely overcrowded classrooms have resulted in growing discipline problems.


. I used to have a private tutor in arabic for a child come to my office and he slapped her there in front of me, no shame, in fact they cannot see what is wrong with it. Firstly I would check out if your children can go to a state school, I somehow doubt it as Egypt has enough expense educating it's own citizens at state schools, there are no bright class rooms with heating in the winter and air con in the summer. Single sex school is the norm.

The sexual harassment is something that you learn to turn a blind eye and of course when you arrive you will not realise what is being said so you ignore that too. You go out in pairs, and you do not look at men in the eye. 

Maiden


----------



## MaidenScotland

Here is the full newspaper article


The trial on manslaughter charges of Haitham Nabil Abdel-Hamid, a 23-year-old mathematics teacher at Saad Othman school in Alexandria, begins on 16 November.

Abdel-Hamid is accused of causing the unlawful death of 11-year-old Islam Amr on 27 October. When Amr refused to hold out his hand to be hit with a ruler along with 15 other students who had failed to do their homework Abdel-Hamid took him outside the classroom and beat him so severely that the 11-year-old died. In his defence Abdel-Hamid says he was only trying to "discipline the boy, not to kill him".

The forensic report indicated that the immediate cause of death was a kick to the stomach that left the second and fifth left ribs broken, resulting in a drop in blood pressure that led to heart failure. Amr was dead on arrival at hospital.

Though corporal punishment was banned by ministerial decree 591 issued in 1998 it remains common practice in state schools where hugely overcrowded classrooms have resulted in growing discipline problems.

News of the death of Amr at the hands of his teacher topped local newspaper headlines, triggering a string of condemnations that have culminated in calls for the resignation of the Prime Minister Ahmed Nazif and the Minister of Education Yosri El-Gamal. El-Gamal subsequent expressed his "deep regret and sorrow" over the "incident", promising compensation and, three days after Amr's death, convening an emergency meeting to reiterate the ban on the use of violence and physical punishment in the classroom.

Under existing rules teachers who use corporal punishment should automatically face an administrative investigation which can recommend the withholding of a portion of the teacher's salary, removal to another school, or dismissal. Yet the regulations are applied laxly at best.

In another incident this week, 10-year- old Khadiga Alaa Mohamed, a student at Ahmed Orabi primary school in Heliopolis, died after her mathematics teacher, 37-year-old Mohamed Abdel-Fattah, attempted to punish her along with other pupils for not doing homework. Requested by the teacher to stand up and come to the front of the class Mohamed collapsed. Khadiga's mother refused to report the incident to the police, staying that Abdel-Fattah had not touched her daughter. A forensic report failed to find any evidence of violence. Cairo Governor Abdel-Azim Wazir immediately ordered LE5,000 in compensation to be paid to the family and suspended the teacher from his duties pending investigation.

Last year a primary school pupil lost the sight in one of his eyes when a teacher threw a pencil at him.

Fawzeya Abdel-Sattar, professor of law at Cairo University, points out that if Abdel-Hamid is found guilty of manslaughter he faces a maximum sentence of seven years, though with a good lawyer a voluntary manslaughter conviction could result in just a three-year sentence.

Though physical punishment in Egyptian schools was banned a decade ago monitoring mechanisms are almost non- existent. Few would argue that Egypt has a long way to go before beginning to meet its commitments contained in the Cairo Declaration, signed under the auspices of the UN in 2005. In the preamble to the declaration the signatories recognise that "children are citizens and fundamental partners in the democratic process" and are urged to bear in mind that "all policies, programmes and mechanisms pertaining to combating violence against children should be in conformity with the principles spelled out in the Convention on the Rights of the Child" which include the "protection of children from corporal punishment and, explicitly, prohibiting corporal punishment in all settings including in the family, schools and other institutions".

Manal Shahin, director of the National Council for Childhood and Motherhood's children's hotline -- (tel: 16000) -- says that in the last two years 85 teachers have been punished, based on student and parents' complaints, for using corporal punishment in the classroom. But in one recent case, she recalls, in which a teacher broke the arm of a primary school pupil, all that happened was that he only got a three-day reduction of his salary and was removed to another school. "Physical punishment creates a wide gap between the child and adult," explained Shahin.

According to statistics published last year by the UNICEF, 50 per cent of children in Upper Egypt and 70 per cent of children in urban areas report corporal punishment in schools. Verbal -- 50 per cent of pupils say they have been threatened with either low grades or expulsion -- and sexual violence is also common.

"Too often, when officials are confronted with reports of violence, they claim that they are isolated cases," says Shahin.


----------



## MaidenScotland

I do not know why I presumed that sexual harassment does not take place at school but I have just read this article.

he Administrative Prosecution Authority statistics say harassment cases that are handled by the prosecution do not exceed two per cent of the total number of filed reports.
But the surprising fact is that 90 per cent of those cases take place at schools where teachers harass students and school principals harass teachers, although the rate is reportedly higher among the former group.
The prevalence of home tuition is also blamed for a rising rate of teachers harassing students. Deputy Chairman of the Authority, Abdallah Qandil admitted that harassment in governmental sectors is not always reported owing to social traditions.
Women victims are either ashamed or fear that their reputation would be ruined. In most cases if the harasser is a teacher or a doctor at a governmental hospital, the relevant administrative bodies suffice with transferring these offenders to other locations, in order to avoid a scandal, Qandil told the Arabic magazine Al-Mussawar.
In the opinion of Eman el-Sherif, a professor of Criminal Psychology at the National Centre for Social and Criminal Research, teachers should be subjected to psychological tests before being appointed.
She says that harassers usually suffer from psychological disorders. A questionnaire designed by social researcher Heba Abdel-Aziz and distributed to a sample of l00 females and l00 males showed that 90 per cent of the polled women had been harassed, 80 per cent of whom said they were sexually molested at the hands of relatives.
According to the questionnaire's results, 95 per cent of the polled men said they were usually indifferent to sexual harassment incidents they have witnessed on the street.
Around 90 per cent of them blamed women for inciting men by wearing sexy clothes or being overmadeup.Yet,contradictorily, 92 per cent of them believed that a harasser does not care whether a woman is veiled or not.
Heba who has been personally harassed by a stalking motorist advised women to take a strong reaction to embarrass offenders on the street. She regrets that it is not always useful to rely on gallant passers-by to intervene, because indifference has today become characteristic of the Egyptian street.
Women's rights organisations in Egypt are pressing for a law to criminalise sexual harassment. Internet campaigns are today being launched condemning the growing practice.




Is Heba the only women who has ever managed to take a man to court for harassment or am I thinking of someone else?


----------



## Peter Mitry

MaidenScotland said:


> Here is the full newspaper article
> 
> 
> The trial on manslaughter charges of Haitham Nabil Abdel-Hamid, a 23-year-old mathematics teacher at Saad Othman school in Alexandria, begins on 16 November.
> 
> Abdel-Hamid is accused of causing the unlawful death of 11-year-old Islam Amr on 27 October. When Amr refused to hold out his hand to be hit with a ruler along with 15 other students who had failed to do their homework Abdel-Hamid took him outside the classroom and beat him so severely that the 11-year-old died. In his defence Abdel-Hamid says he was only trying to "discipline the boy, not to kill him".
> 
> The forensic report indicated that the immediate cause of death was a kick to the stomach that left the second and fifth left ribs broken, resulting in a drop in blood pressure that led to heart failure. Amr was dead on arrival at hospital.
> 
> 
> Though corporal punishment was banned by ministerial decree 591 issued in 1998 it remains common practice in state schools where hugely overcrowded classrooms have resulted in growing discipline problems.
> 
> News of the death of Amr at the hands of his teacher topped local newspaper headlines, triggering a string of condemnations that have culminated in calls for the resignation of the Prime Minister Ahmed Nazif and the Minister of Education Yosri El-Gamal. El-Gamal subsequent expressed his "deep regret and sorrow" over the "incident", promising compensation and, three days after Amr's death, convening an emergency meeting to reiterate the ban on the use of violence and physical punishment in the classroom.
> 
> Under existing rules teachers who use corporal punishment should automatically face an administrative investigation which can recommend the withholding of a portion of the teacher's salary, removal to another school, or dismissal. Yet the regulations are applied laxly at best.
> 
> In another incident this week, 10-year- old Khadiga Alaa Mohamed, a student at Ahmed Orabi primary school in Heliopolis, died after her mathematics teacher, 37-year-old Mohamed Abdel-Fattah, attempted to punish her along with other pupils for not doing homework. Requested by the teacher to stand up and come to the front of the class Mohamed collapsed. Khadiga's mother refused to report the incident to the police, staying that Abdel-Fattah had not touched her daughter. A forensic report failed to find any evidence of violence. Cairo Governor Abdel-Azim Wazir immediately ordered LE5,000 in compensation to be paid to the family and suspended the teacher from his duties pending investigation.
> 
> Last year a primary school pupil lost the sight in one of his eyes when a teacher threw a pencil at him.
> 
> Fawzeya Abdel-Sattar, professor of law at Cairo University, points out that if Abdel-Hamid is found guilty of manslaughter he faces a maximum sentence of seven years, though with a good lawyer a voluntary manslaughter conviction could result in just a three-year sentence.
> 
> Though physical punishment in Egyptian schools was banned a decade ago monitoring mechanisms are almost non- existent. Few would argue that Egypt has a long way to go before beginning to meet its commitments contained in the Cairo Declaration, signed under the auspices of the UN in 2005. In the preamble to the declaration the signatories recognise that "children are citizens and fundamental partners in the democratic process" and are urged to bear in mind that "all policies, programmes and mechanisms pertaining to combating violence against children should be in conformity with the principles spelled out in the Convention on the Rights of the Child" which include the "protection of children from corporal punishment and, explicitly, prohibiting corporal punishment in all settings including in the family, schools and other institutions".
> 
> Manal Shahin, director of the National Council for Childhood and Motherhood's children's hotline -- (tel: 16000) -- says that in the last two years 85 teachers have been punished, based on student and parents' complaints, for using corporal punishment in the classroom. But in one recent case, she recalls, in which a teacher broke the arm of a primary school pupil, all that happened was that he only got a three-day reduction of his salary and was removed to another school. "Physical punishment creates a wide gap between the child and adult," explained Shahin.
> 
> According to statistics published last year by the UNICEF, 50 per cent of children in Upper Egypt and 70 per cent of children in urban areas report corporal punishment in schools. Verbal -- 50 per cent of pupils say they have been threatened with either low grades or expulsion -- and sexual violence is also common.
> 
> "Too often, when officials are confronted with reports of violence, they claim that they are isolated cases," says Shahin.



All of this is totally disgusting but in my view symptomatic of a totally male dominated society which neither respects women nor children. The churches are to blame for this for not teaching true values and equality.


----------



## MaidenScotland

MaidenScotland said:


> I do not know why I presumed that sexual harassment does not take place at school but I have just read this article.
> 
> he Administrative Prosecution Authority statistics say harassment cases that are handled by the prosecution do not exceed two per cent of the total number of filed reports.
> But the surprising fact is that 90 per cent of those cases take place at schools where teachers harass students and school principals harass teachers, although the rate is reportedly higher among the former group.
> The prevalence of home tuition is also blamed for a rising rate of teachers harassing students. Deputy Chairman of the Authority, Abdallah Qandil admitted that harassment in governmental sectors is not always reported owing to social traditions.
> Women victims are either ashamed or fear that their reputation would be ruined. In most cases if the harasser is a teacher or a doctor at a governmental hospital, the relevant administrative bodies suffice with transferring these offenders to other locations, in order to avoid a scandal, Qandil told the Arabic magazine Al-Mussawar.
> In the opinion of Eman el-Sherif, a professor of Criminal Psychology at the National Centre for Social and Criminal Research, teachers should be subjected to psychological tests before being appointed.
> She says that harassers usually suffer from psychological disorders. A questionnaire designed by social researcher Heba Abdel-Aziz and distributed to a sample of l00 females and l00 males showed that 90 per cent of the polled women had been harassed, 80 per cent of whom said they were sexually molested at the hands of relatives.
> According to the questionnaire's results, 95 per cent of the polled men said they were usually indifferent to sexual harassment incidents they have witnessed on the street.
> Around 90 per cent of them blamed women for inciting men by wearing sexy clothes or being overmadeup.Yet,contradictorily, 92 per cent of them believed that a harasser does not care whether a woman is veiled or not.
> Heba who has been personally harassed by a stalking motorist advised women to take a strong reaction to embarrass offenders on the street. She regrets that it is not always useful to rely on gallant passers-by to intervene, because indifference has today become characteristic of the Egyptian street.
> Women's rights organisations in Egypt are pressing for a law to criminalise sexual harassment. Internet campaigns are today being launched condemning the growing practice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is Heba the only women who has ever managed to take a man to court for harassment or am I thinking of someone else?




answering my own question here........Noha Ostath. is the women.


Has the bill been passed that makes sexual harassment a crime?


----------



## aykalam

MaidenScotland said:


> answering my own question here........Noha Ostath. is the women.
> 
> 
> Has the bill been passed that makes sexual harassment a crime?


I believe this post by DG confirmed it had been passed by as things are changing from one day to the next you never know now

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/shisha-cafe/74755-sexual-harassment-amendments.html


----------



## aykalam

Peter Mitry said:


> All of this is totally disgusting but in my view symptomatic of a totally male dominated society which neither respects women nor children. The churches are to blame for this for not teaching true values and equality.


It's most definitely a man's world in Egypt. That's why some of us expat ladies keep emphasizing that life for an expat guy can be very different from the life an expat woman can expect here. 

the churches? how so? Most Egyptians are Muslim and I very much doubt they would even consider walking into a church. 

IMHO religion has nothing to do with this problem. It's a lack of respect that's at the core of it all. Lack of education and principles, not sermons from a pulpit.


----------



## Peter Mitry

aykalam said:


> It's most definitely a man's world in Egypt. That's why some of us expat ladies keep emphasizing that life for an expat guy can be very different from the life an expat woman can expect here.
> 
> the churches? how so? Most Egyptians are Muslim and I very much doubt they would even consider walking into a church.
> 
> IMHO religion has nothing to do with this problem. It's a lack of respect that's at the core of it all. Lack of education and principles, not sermons from a pulpit.


OK but in a country which appears to practice extremes of religious worship, whether Muslim or Christian do you not believe the custodians of whichever faith have a duty to preach tolerance and equality?

It is of course a lack of respect but this will only change if someone says 'stop' this is wrong. Otherwise nothing will every change and the law of the jungle prevails.


----------



## MaidenScotland

aykalam said:


> It's most definitely a man's world in Egypt. That's why some of us expat ladies keep emphasizing that life for an expat guy can be very different from the life an expat woman can expect here.
> 
> the churches? how so? Most Egyptians are Muslim and I very much doubt they would even consider walking into a church.
> 
> IMHO religion has nothing to do with this problem. It's a lack of respect that's at the core of it all. Lack of education and principles, not sermons from a pulpit.




I share your sentiments... it has nothing to with religion but it does make me wonder about the parents here and what they are teaching their sons. I have had to rebuke my son in the past (he was 12) for the way he has spoken about girls, I reminded him that his sister is a girl as I am and somehow I do not think this is done on any scale here, the problem shows to me that parents don't deal with it.


----------



## txlstewart

MaidenScotland said:


> I share your sentiments... it has nothing to with religion but it does make me wonder about the parents here and what they are teaching their sons. I have had to rebuke my son in the past (he was 12) for the way he has spoken about girls, I reminded him that his sister is a girl as I am and somehow I do not think this is done on any scale here, the problem shows to me that parents don't deal with it.


I have seen 8 year old boys treat their mothers with disdain--and they are of the upper class. They have tried to treat me in a similar way, and I have nipped that in the bud. I try to explain that everyone should be treated equally, but sometimes it falls on deaf ears. Hopefully it will make a small difference in one, which may grow from that.....


----------



## aykalam

Peter Mitry said:


> OK but in a country which appears to practice extremes of religious worship, whether Muslim or Christian do you not believe the custodians of whichever faith have a duty to preach tolerance and equality?
> 
> It is of course a lack of respect but this will only change if someone says 'stop' this is wrong. Otherwise nothing will every change and the law of the jungle prevails.


Sorry if anyone gets offended here but I don't believe Islam is compatible with gender equality, so I wouldn't really expect to hear any imam preach for women rights. And from I have been told, the Coptic hierarchy are just as bad. 

You only need to take a look at family and inheritance law in Egypt, both heavily patriarchal, to know that the "custodians" will not be waving the equality flag any time soon. 

Religion is not the solution


----------



## aykalam

txlstewart said:


> I have seen 8 year old boys treat their mothers with disdain--and they are of the upper class. They have tried to treat me in a similar way, and I have nipped that in the bud. I try to explain that everyone should be treated equally, but sometimes it falls on deaf ears. Hopefully it will make a small difference in one, which may grow from that.....


It is really sad to see the way siblings are brought up differently according to their gender. The boys here basically get away with murder, the girls usually endure a very strict parenting style. I see this with my in-laws and it makes my blood boil. For what is worth, when they visit us they get a taste of "equality", and I love the way their mums look at me in shock


----------



## Trvls

MaidenScotland said:


> I do not know why I presumed that sexual harassment does not take place at school but I have just read this article.
> 
> he Administrative Prosecution Authority statistics say harassment cases that are handled by the prosecution do not exceed two per cent of the total number of filed reports.
> But the surprising fact is that 90 per cent of those cases take place at schools where teachers harass students and school principals harass teachers, although the rate is reportedly higher among the former group.
> The prevalence of home tuition is also blamed for a rising rate of teachers harassing students. Deputy Chairman of the Authority, Abdallah Qandil admitted that harassment in governmental sectors is not always reported owing to social traditions.
> Women victims are either ashamed or fear that their reputation would be ruined. In most cases if the harasser is a teacher or a doctor at a governmental hospital, the relevant administrative bodies suffice with transferring these offenders to other locations, in order to avoid a scandal, Qandil told the Arabic magazine Al-Mussawar.
> In the opinion of Eman el-Sherif, a professor of Criminal Psychology at the National Centre for Social and Criminal Research, teachers should be subjected to psychological tests before being appointed.
> She says that harassers usually suffer from psychological disorders. A questionnaire designed by social researcher Heba Abdel-Aziz and distributed to a sample of l00 females and l00 males showed that 90 per cent of the polled women had been harassed, 80 per cent of whom said they were sexually molested at the hands of relatives.
> According to the questionnaire's results, 95 per cent of the polled men said they were usually indifferent to sexual harassment incidents they have witnessed on the street.
> Around 90 per cent of them blamed women for inciting men by wearing sexy clothes or being overmadeup.Yet,contradictorily, 92 per cent of them believed that a harasser does not care whether a woman is veiled or not.
> Heba who has been personally harassed by a stalking motorist advised women to take a strong reaction to embarrass offenders on the street. She regrets that it is not always useful to rely on gallant passers-by to intervene, because indifference has today become characteristic of the Egyptian street.
> Women's rights organisations in Egypt are pressing for a law to criminalise sexual harassment. Internet campaigns are today being launched condemning the growing practice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is Heba the only women who has ever managed to take a man to court for harassment or am I thinking of someone else?


That poll is shocking!


----------



## Peter Mitry

Trvls said:


> That poll is shocking!


This entire thread has been a revelation to me; I find the whole thing distressing. My wife and I have been married for forty five years and we are now bringing up 6 year old and a 12 year old granddaughters in Hurghada.

My eldest granddaughter assures me that she has never experienced this type of harassment but you can be sure that I will be doubly vigilant in the future. It explains perhaps why the Egyptian parents of other classmates in her school do not allow their daughters to 'hang out' with the other girls.

My wife was subjected to 'touching' in a Mall in Hurghada and after we complained to the HO in Cairo the staff member responsible was dismissed; however, last weekend we passed by the store and he is back in his old job!


----------



## MaidenScotland

Peter Mitry said:


> This entire thread has been a revelation to me; I find the whole thing distressing. My wife and I have been married for forty five years and we are now bringing up 6 year old and a 12 year old granddaughters in Hurghada.
> 
> My eldest granddaughter assures me that she has never experienced this type of harassment but you can be sure that I will be doubly vigilant in the future. It explains perhaps why the Egyptian parents of other classmates in her school do not allow their daughters to 'hang out' with the other girls.
> 
> My wife was subjected to 'touching' in a Mall in Hurghada and after we complained to the HO in Cairo the staff member responsible was dismissed; however, last weekend we passed by the store and he is back in his old job!




See that often, sacked for various reasons and then back in employment days later/

You might like to read the book Taxi driver as there is a chapter where the author lets his daughter use a taxi on her own for the first time and she is subjected to sexual conversation by the taxi driver


----------



## Peter Mitry

MaidenScotland said:


> See that often, sacked for various reasons and then back in employment days later/
> 
> You might like to read the book Taxi driver as there is a chapter where the author lets his daughter use a taxi on her own for the first time and she is subjected to sexual conversation by the taxi driver


Thanks MaidenScotland; any idea where I can buy it?


----------



## MaidenScotland

Peter Mitry said:


> Thanks MaidenScotland; any idea where I can buy it?




I use Diwan in Cairo but not sure if there is one in your neck of the woods.

The book is a bit like a diary of a man who takes a taxi and has chats with the drivers on various subjects, it is very interesting and makes a good read.


----------



## MaidenScotland

Sorry I think the book might just be called Taxi.. been a few years since I read it.


----------



## MaidenScotland

Book Review by Sasha Simic, March 2008

Khaled Al Khamissi, Aflame Books, £8

Some 80,000 taxis ply their trade on the streets of Cairo. The battered black and white cars which thread their way through the chaotic roads of Egypt's capital are so ubiquitous it's easy to forget that each of them carries at least one human story.

Last year the Egyptian journalist Khaled Al Khamissi collected 58 conversations he had with taxi drivers while being ferried across Cairo into a book. The result - Taxi - was an instant bestseller. It's a wonderful work which captures the daily struggle of working people in modern Egypt in their own words.

Egypt's rulers have enthusiastically embraced neoliberalism, making life much harder for the population. The cabbies in this book are young and old, religious and secular, representing many different groups from across Egypt's society, but each is struggling to survive in its "fish eat fish" society.

Simply trying to renew a driving licence becomes a nightmare of bureaucracy and bribery which rivals anything Kafka wrote. The majority hate Egypt's dictatorial president Hosni Mubarak and despise Egypt's conspicuous rich. Most understand what unrestrained market forces have done to their lives: "I'm like a fish and the taxi's like a fish tank... It's true I drive around all day long but all I see is the inside of my taxi, my limits are the windows of the taxi. Life's imprisonment, ending in the grave."


----------



## GM1

BookDetails from Red Sea bookstores, located in Zabargad mall


----------



## Peter Mitry

GM1 said:


> BookDetails from Red Sea bookstores, located in Zabargad mall


Many thanks!


----------



## GM1

you're welcome!


----------



## canuck2010

lwob said:


> Greetings,
> I have questions but first some background...
> My children, 16, 14 and 10, would like to learn Arabic and live in Egypt for two plus years. i am retired on a small fixed income. i doubt i can afford to live in expat areas and i am very sure i cannot afford international schools. we do not require a car. none of us own more than what fits in a backpack or small suitcase so theft is not an issue. we have been in China and Japan for the last eight years. the kids have gone to public schools usually. they speak, read and write four languages with varying degrees of proficiency.
> my questions:
> what city and district would you suggest?
> what are the cost for a three bedroom apartment? less than $800US?
> are the apartments furnished with beds and kitchen equipment (refrig, stove, oven)?
> initial cost of lease? security deposit? 1st and last month rent?
> normal lenght of lease? (here in harbin, china i have to pay the entire year in advance!)
> any ideas on schools?
> have any of you experience in placing your non-arabic speaking children in public school?
> do you know what i would pay for a native language tutor?
> can i bring my chinese cat? lol
> i am guessing i can do all this on a tourist visa?
> any advice would be appreciated.
> thanks



My advice, pick another country! Seriously, Egypt will be in turmoil for the foreseeable future. Most expats I know who left when the revolution happened have only returned by themselves to work, leaving their families behind in their home country due to safety issues.


----------



## lwob

canuck2010 said:


> My advice, pick another country! Seriously, Egypt will be in turmoil for the foreseeable future. Most expats I know who left when the revolution happened have only returned by themselves to work, leaving their families behind in their home country due to safety issues.


Yes, my timing seems to be very bad. Do you have another Arabic speaking country in mind? From my naive view, all Arabic countries seem to be questionable especially with the uncertainty of the situation with Iran. I have been hoping that things might settle down by the time we move in July but seven or eight months is a very short time to sort out the changes Egypt and the rest of the Middle East is experiencing. The fact you and others on this forum are not fleeing Egypt gives me some hope. But maybe I should ask if you have noticed a rise in the level of hostility towards foreigners?


----------



## txlstewart

UAE, Dubai in particular, seems to be a decent (but expensive) place.....


----------



## meb01999

i ADORED kuwait. LOVED it.

BUT - most gulf countries (kuwait i am sure of) do not allow children without national citizenship to attend public school. and all schools will require residency as opposed to a tourist visa.

maybe UAE or Qatar have fewer restrictions?


----------



## MaidenScotland

I left the country and returned to work, I have no family here so I can pick up my bags and run if the needs be. I would not expect anything to have settled down by next July as we will be having elections and first year anniversaries. 
Do you really think it is fair to come to a country that can hardly afford to educate it's own people and take up places at a state school?


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## lwob

MaidenScotland said:


> I left the country and returned to work, I have no family here so I can pick up my bags and run if the needs be. I would not expect anything to have settled down by next July as we will be having elections and first year anniversaries.
> Do you really think it is fair to come to a country that can hardly afford to educate it's own people and take up places at a state school?


The first thought that came to mind was "That's why I don't take them to the US" (that's a joke, kind of). the fees for the Egyptian public schools (someone mentioned ~1500) is in line with schools here in China and it is considered adequate to cover the cost of a regular student. We do not ask schools to provide anything extra. And even with a limited budget we add to the local economy. If money is not an issue, is there any value or benefit for a few children in Egypt to interact on a daily basis with a foreigner? Many people think there is value in foreign student exchange. Both sides gain some understanding of the different cultures they say. Many, if not most, of the Chinese (or Japanese) children and teachers we meet have never had an opportunity to talk to a foreigner. We stay for more than two years and the kids are immersed in the culture. they become very close with the host country. Is there any universal or big picture benefit to three children who have had such an experience? nah, probably not. If it happened on a big or enormous scale would it be a good thing? i don't know. it's not practical anyway.
As a non-achiever in school, bored to near death, i simply try to make my childrens' experience more meaningful. they asked to come to China and they are asking to live in Egypt. 
Is it fair? If I pay what the state school is asking it is fair. Is there something gained by both parties more than the exchange of money? My intuition is yes but my intuition is for s*** - i am a man. Might something bad happen? yes.


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## txlstewart

I teach in an American school that has primarily Egyptian students. They offer Arabic as a Foreign Language classes. Your children would have the advantage of being able to speak casually with fellow students, picking up even more Arabic. The nice part is that they can learn in a language that is familiar rather than having to try to learn in a language that is new.

As to your being bored out of your mind whilst in school--education has changed a bit. Look for a TRUE IB school that has all the programs, not just the DP. The IB approach to education is a lot different that what I had as a kid. I really like it. Another good piece of information is from Edutopia, which was started by George Lucas. He was bored in school and wanted to find a way to connect teachers to new ways to teach, etc. It has a great website...

I have seen the public schools, and I would not recommend them.


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## canuck2010

lwob said:


> Is it fair? If I pay what the state school is asking it is fair. Is there something gained by both parties more than the exchange of money? My intuition is yes but my intuition is for s*** - i am a man. Might something bad happen? yes.


You're comparing Chinese and Japanese public schools to Egyptian public schools. There really is no basis for comparison between them. Regardless, I doubt they would be allowed to attend a public school, even if you had the proper residency status.


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## DeadGuy

lwob said:


> The first thought that came to mind was "That's why I don't take them to the US" (that's a joke, kind of). the fees for the Egyptian public schools (someone mentioned ~1500) is in line with schools here in China and it is considered adequate to cover the cost of a regular student. We do not ask schools to provide anything extra. And even with a limited budget we add to the local economy. If money is not an issue, is there any value or benefit for a few children in Egypt to interact on a daily basis with a foreigner? Many people think there is value in foreign student exchange. Both sides gain some understanding of the different cultures they say. Many, if not most, of the Chinese (or Japanese) children and teachers we meet have never had an opportunity to talk to a foreigner. We stay for more than two years and the kids are immersed in the culture. they become very close with the host country. Is there any universal or big picture benefit to three children who have had such an experience? nah, probably not. If it happened on a big or enormous scale would it be a good thing? i don't know. it's not practical anyway.
> As a non-achiever in school, bored to near death, i simply try to make my childrens' experience more meaningful.* they asked to come to China and they are asking to live in Egypt. *
> Is it fair? If I pay what the state school is asking it is fair. Is there something gained by both parties more than the exchange of money? My intuition is yes but my intuition is for s*** - i am a man. Might something bad happen? yes.


Not sure what is it you're expecting your kids to learn in Egyptian public schools to be honest, but as an Egyptian that's been taught in Egyptian public schools my whole life I can tell you that the stuff they're gonna learn are basically how to use pocket knives, how to do drugs, how to have weird sexual visions about any walking "thing" with two hands, feet and boobs, they'll also learn some VERY VERY low nasty swears, and they'll definitely learn some "casual" Arabic, which normally means 90% swears, 10% none sense........And in your case, they'll probably catch a really nasty "Egyptian English" accent.........

Have to agree with canuck2010 in here, there really is no basis for comparison between the Japanese/Chinese public schools and the Egyptian ones.

Besides, and I DEFINITELY do NOT mean to be rude in here, and I am completely aware of the fact that what children need/want is IMPORTANT, but they're still children, parents should still put some guide lines, so if your children want to move to Egypt and enroll a local public school that shouldn't necessarily mean it should happen regardless of everything else.........

Like many others said already, Egyptian parents who can afford to put their kids in private schools and/or International schools tend to do that, the only two reasons for most Egyptian parents send their kids to public schools in here are:

1) Parents can NOT afford other options.
2) There are NO other options available where they live.

But definitely NOT cause they want to put their kids in public schools!

Forgot to add, I was talking about my own generation when mentioned what they'd learn in public schools, and that was long time ago! But seeing kids now in schools, it definitely got much worse, and some of them can't even spell their OWN names in Arabic! So trust me, whatever it is you're expecting your kids to learn, they probably won't!


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## lwob

The elections seem to favor the Muslim Brotherhood and to a lesser extent the Salafist. I dont see this as a negative for moving to Egypt, do you? I am still looking for school(s) that will immerse my children in the Egyptian culture and preferrable the Arabic language. i want them to go to school with Egyptian children speaking Arabic. i dont necessarily want them to memorize the Quran. Assuming no radical political change i will move to Cairo in June and try to find living quarters, etc. for my family who will follow in July. 
So... your thoughts. Would you bring your family to Egypt now? Additional ideas on schools please!
Thanks


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## MaidenScotland

lwob said:


> The elections seem to favor the Muslim Brotherhood and to a lesser extent the Salafist. I dont see this as a negative for moving to Egypt, do you? I am still looking for school(s) that will immerse my children in the Egyptian culture and preferrable the Arabic language. i want them to go to school with Egyptian children speaking Arabic. i dont necessarily want them to memorize the Quran. Assuming no radical political change i will move to Cairo in June and try to find living quarters, etc. for my family who will follow in July.
> So... your thoughts. Would you bring your family to Egypt now? Additional ideas on schools please!
> Thanks




We have given our thoughts and I would be surprised if anyone else had a change of heart, 
I would never move my children here and educate them in a state school regardless of who is or isn't in power.


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## Peter Mitry

When we first moved here four years ago we sent our kids to a fee paying National school where we were told that the main subjects were in English and where we thought they would learn Arabic quickly. Wrong on both counts; none of the staff spoke English, everything was in Arabic and they learned nothing because they couldn't communicate!


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## MaidenScotland

Peter Mitry said:


> When we first moved here four years ago we sent our kids to a fee paying National school where we were told that the main subjects were in English and where we thought they would learn Arabic quickly. Wrong on both counts; none of the staff spoke English, everything was in Arabic and they learned nothing because they couldn't communicate!


Exactly Peter..
No Egyptian will school their child in a state school if they have an alternative.


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## lwob

Peter Mitry said:


> When we first moved here four years ago we sent our kids to a fee paying National school where we were told that the main subjects were in English and where we thought they would learn Arabic quickly. Wrong on both counts; none of the staff spoke English, everything was in Arabic and they learned nothing because they couldn't communicate!


Peter - could you tell me more about your experience? what school did you put them in? how old were your children at the time? how did you find the school? do you still remeber the name of the school? were there problems with the staff or the Egyptian children? was the school in Cairo? we put our kids in american school when they only spoke spanish, then japanese schools when they only spoke english and spanish and now chinese school when they only speak english, spanish and japanese. it is truely awesome to see how fast they learn the language and culture. my ten year old is doing excellent in public schools here. according to him, he is the star student and recently won the singing/speaking competition. he loves the school and there is zero english in the regular classroom. from a parents viewpoint it is horrible because you have NO idea what they are learning or how well they are learning. but i am convinced they are better off with the challenge and believe they have learned as much as they would have in a regular curriculum in the states.


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## Peter Mitry

lwob said:


> Peter - could you tell me more about your experience? what school did you put them in? how old were your children at the time? how did you find the school? do you still remeber the name of the school? were there problems with the staff or the Egyptian children? was the school in Cairo? we put our kids in american school when they only spoke spanish, then japanese schools when they only spoke english and spanish and now chinese school when they only speak english, spanish and japanese. it is truely awesome to see how fast they learn the language and culture. my ten year old is doing excellent in public schools here. according to him, he is the star student and recently won the singing/speaking competition. he loves the school and there is zero english in the regular classroom. from a parents viewpoint it is horrible because you have NO idea what they are learning or how well they are learning. but i am convinced they are better off with the challenge and believe they have learned as much as they would have in a regular curriculum in the states.


At the time the children were 4 and 10; we put them into Rajac School in Hurghada where we were told that most of the staff spoke English when in fact none of them did. We still had a stuggle to get our money back although the school had blatantly lied to us.

Both of the children were born in Spain and are fluent in English and Spanish, so learning has never been a problem. The problem in Egypt is that the majority of teaching staff have no experience of teaching foreign children and many Egyptians are lazy and cannot be bothered!


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## MaidenScotland

Peter Mitry said:


> At the time the children were 4 and 10; we put them into Rajac School in Hurghada where we were told that most of the staff spoke English when in fact none of them did. We still had a stuggle to get our money back although the school had blatantly lied to us.
> 
> Both of the children were born in Spain and are fluent in English and Spanish, so learning has never been a problem. The problem in Egypt is that the majority of teaching staff have no experience of teaching foreign children and many Egyptians are lazy and cannot be bothered!




When you are paid peanuts, teach in classes with 30 plus pupils, you have no material or very little, then no wonder they can't be bothered,


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## aykalam

MaidenScotland said:


> When you are paid peanuts, teach in classes with 30 plus pupils, you have no material or very little, then no wonder they can't be bothered,


So what's the excuse for not being bothered when they "work" in an international school with all the resources they need :tongue1:


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## marenostrum

On the subject of schools does anyone know if the Armenian Cahtolic Sister School in Heliopolis is public or private?

Thanks


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## MaidenScotland

aykalam said:


> So what's the excuse for not being bothered when they "work" in an international school with all the resources they need :tongue1:




Well thats another story but we are not talking about international fee paying schools


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## lwob

yes! I think the chinese teachers are uninterested in the extra work it takes to have a foreign student in the class. they have, however,been very interested in learning or practicing english. the problem in middle school and high school was everyone insisted on speaking english. i was very impressed with the chinese students desire to communicate exclusively in english but it was counter productive from my view point. i needed a school with lower levels of achievement. oddly enough the school you describe fits the (my) requirements. i can provide the tutors or summer classes to get them going but they really need the immersion to get the language and culture.


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## Guest

lwob said:


> Greetings,
> I have questions but first some background...
> My children, 16, 14 and 10, would like to learn Arabic and live in Egypt for two plus years. i am retired on a small fixed income. i doubt i can afford to live in expat areas and i am very sure i cannot afford international schools. we do not require a car. none of us own more than what fits in a backpack or small suitcase so theft is not an issue. we have been in China and Japan for the last eight years. the kids have gone to public schools usually. they speak, read and write four languages with varying degrees of proficiency.
> my questions:
> what city and district would you suggest?
> what are the cost for a three bedroom apartment? less than $800US?
> are the apartments furnished with beds and kitchen equipment (refrig, stove, oven)?
> initial cost of lease? security deposit? 1st and last month rent?
> normal lenght of lease? (here in harbin, china i have to pay the entire year in advance!)
> any ideas on schools?
> have any of you experience in placing your non-arabic speaking children in public school?
> do you know what i would pay for a native language tutor?
> can i bring my chinese cat? lol
> i am guessing i can do all this on a tourist visa?
> any advice would be appreciated.
> thanks


Hi, government free schools in Egypt are not suitable, standards are low. Private paid education is expensive, but cheaper than the UK, i did bring my Irish cat went trough customs and they didn't notice him , you would want some documents stating the cat is healthy.


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## Peter Mitry

Fair comment Maiden Scotland, and I am talking about fee paying schools; I can only imagine how it must be in the state schools.


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## Lanason

If you use the top fee paying schools they are very good. Probably on a par with a middle ranking fee paying independent school in the UK.


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## Peter Mitry

aykalam said:


> So what's the excuse for not being bothered when they "work" in an international school with all the resources they need :tongue1:


Not so much about resources more about being fed up with the daily grind and trying to keep a family on the peanuts they get paid. Lack of opportunity, lack of incentive, little opportunity for advancement, the list just goes on and on....


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