# New labour reforms - will they create more jobs?



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Announced yesterday:


> Companies with under 50 workers hiring employees under 30 years old will receive a tax reduction of 3,000 euros per worker. Youth unemployment in Spain currently stands at around 48 percent.
> 
> Companies hiring workers aged between 16 and 30 years will receive a discount in the social security contributions they have to make of up to 3,600 euros over three years.
> 
> ...


Other changes include a big reduction in statutory redundancy payments, a maximum period of 2 years for temporary contracts (aimed to encourage employers to offer permanent posts instead) , and a lump sum payment in lieu of unemployment benefit for young people wanting to start their own business.

Labor reform makes it cheaper to fire workers | In english | EL PAÍS

Views?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> Announced yesterday:
> 
> 
> Other changes include a big reduction in statutory redundancy payments, a maximum period of 2 years for temporary contracts (aimed to encourage employers to offer permanent posts instead) , and a lump sum payment in lieu of unemployment benefit for young people wanting to start their own business.
> ...



Last things first. I was given a lump sum to start up a co operative after being made redundant in about 1992 so I don't know how that's included as a new thing.

Giving reductions in taxes that have to be paid by employers in one way of encouraging contracts to be made, but if there are no jobs to be given???

Is there anything to say x millions will be invested in the creation of new jobs in the IT world, solar energy, research etc. I don't think so


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

Sounds ok on the surface (and at least they are trying to do something).

However.... 



> Companies with under 50 workers hiring employees under 30 years old will receive a tax reduction of 3,000 euros per worker. Youth unemployment in Spain currently stands at around 48 percent.
> 
> Companies hiring workers aged between 16 and 30 years will receive a discount in the social security contributions they have to make of up to 3,600 euros over three years.


With these rules, I wonder what will happen to those workers when they reach the age of 30?



> Firms hiring workers over 45 years old who have been in long-term unemployment will be entitled to a discount in social security contributions of up to 4,500 euros per worker over three years.


So what happens to the 30 to 45 year olds?
These are the workers who need jobs in order to pay for their homes and families.




> a maximum period of 2 years for temporary contracts...


Having worked as a temp in the UK, I can see problems with this.
The UK example is that companies take on temps with a contract which states they have to be made permanent after three months.
The problem is that many employers are either, extending the temp term, citing poor work skills, etc, or sacking temp workers a few days before their temp contract has to become a permanent one.
There are also employers who let temps go after three months, wait three months and then take them on again as temps.
The 2 year contract does seem better on the surface, as it provides a little more security, I guess.
But if, as in the UK, a temp worker cannot, for example, take out a mortgage, then the extended time period will only make matters worse.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Given the circumstances I think this is a promising start.
WE start from where we are not where we like to be. There is little hope of a huge boost to demand via public spending for obvious reasons so he's taken supply side measures.
The changes to the redundancy payment system is long overdue. We have an employee who has just had a major operation and is really not fit to carry out his duties which involve lifting heavy weights (dogs, food sacks etc.) His incapacity is hampering our day-to-day operation. We would like to restructure and take another employee off the local unemployment register but if we made him redundant it would cost us over 20000 euros...which we haven't got.
PYMES can't afford to shed labour in times of slow demand when faced with such crippling obligations. This can often mean that everyone loses their job.
As for the other measures: I think they are positive.
Those who criticise should suggest alternatives. Opposition without suggesting plausible alternative courses of action is an armchair luxury.
Rajoy has accepted the FTT too....surprisingly.
I guess it's disappointing that he hasn't demanded a wholesale slaughter of babies...yet. 
What I think should be tackled is the excessive power of regions to distort national budgeting. The excessive bureaucracy should also be dismantled. Sixteen Parliaments with their associated bureaucracy...fragmented police forces...
Until the whole European mess is sorted out and the supranational organisations and national governments turn their backs on laissez-faire there is in truth little state governments can do.
There seems at last to be some recognition of the need for a new approach.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Is there anything to say x millions will be invested in the creation of new jobs in the IT world, solar energy, research etc. I don't think so




No, sadly, because there is no money for this. Borrowing more would push up the yields on Spanish bonds to unacceptable levels.
Wouldn't it be lovely if the EU organised a growth fund instead of a bailout fund so all EU states could create jobs, get more spending into the economy (consumerism is a useful, necessary tool at times) and thus save public spending on welfare etc.
But that is not on the cards yet.
However...I cannot see how this crisis can be resolved without less austerity and more emphasis on growth.
Given current restraints: how can that be achieved


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> Those who criticise should suggest alternatives. Opposition without suggesting plausible alternative courses of action is an armchair luxury.


Alcalaina asked us for our views, not complete policy suggestions.
It would be a sad place for discussion, and severely limit answers to statements, if no one could criticise on a forum without offering alternatives.

People have different views on this subject, and most of us take those views from our own experience.
You did, when talking about how changes to the redundancy payment system could affect you.



mrypg9 said:


> There seems at last to be some recognition of the need for a new approach.


Agreed.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Solwriter said:


> Alcalaina asked us for our views, not complete policy suggestions.
> It would be a sad place for discussion, and severely limit answers to statements, if no one could criticise on a forum without offering alternatives.
> 
> People have different views on this subject, and most of us take those views from our own experience.
> ...


I think that criticism without alternatives is merely....criticism without alternatives.If you think something is wrong surely you must have some idea as to how to do things in a better way? Criticism implies you have a better idea, surely...I'm used to having my ideas scorned, rejected, improved....and then coming back with more arguments. I feel severely handicapped in discussions with PSOE colleagues because I can't engage fully in debate - try arguing finance issues with a load of impassioned people speaking Andaluz...
How can you discuss or debate if all you are doing is to bemoan? We all know how dangerous the current situation is.We don't have sufficient input from people on the right....it would be interesting to learn what those who think my (and I presume your) views on neo-liberal economics are rubbish think of these proposals...
I think that there should be more fresh thinking and serious consideration of what needs to be done to change the whole basis of how society is organised.
We all know that markets have too much power, national states' sovereignity is seriously constrained by the power of the markets and unelected transnational entities such as the IMF, WTO and so on.
Alca is surely asking for serious constructive suggestions...
I put up ideas for people to knock them down.
Any practising politician, whether at local or national level, who criticised the Opposition's plans without suggesting what s/he would propose instead would be as useful as a chocolate fireguard. In my political life such as it was I would have been told to 'put up or shut up' if I criticised a Budget Plan without offering alternative proposals.
We are not politicians but we have power and we have responsibility to use that power wisely. We can change perceptions and policies by involving ourselves in places where we can have an impact, however small as an individual. We all add up.
That's why I urge people to join established Parties to change policies. 
I'm not working but I am still an active contributing member of my Union because I want to be counted.
I'm sorry but I've been involved in politics and unionism for far too long to treat political issues in any other way...
Maybe I'm still too addicted, I don't know. But when our lives are affected by the decisions of others, it's a serious matter. Not like discussing a novel or film.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

*Those who criticise should suggest alternatives. Opposition without suggesting plausible alternative courses of action is an armchair luxury.*


No-one has criticised yet....
So I will and I will suggest alternatives.
PW is right that there are no plans for creating jobs although the measures suggested will go some way to making it easier for employers to take on people.
I guess the rationale is more people employed =more spending power= more jobs.
But it's the _*kind*_ of jobs that matters and Spain needs to find a sector that can compete on the international market in value-added terms rather than on sectors which will be involved in a fastest to the bottom race with countries whose main competition point is price.
PW has referred to areas where Spain already has a lead such as green technology, exploiting wind and solar power, all renewable energy resources and so on. If no public money is forthcoming to develop these important future growth areas...then why not set up a scheme, a joint partnership enterprise, with a small capital kick-start from the Government to encourage R&D and increase existing production in these areas, specifically to export this technology to the emerging markets of India, China etc.? Venture capitalism isn't a strong feature of the Spanish economy...so why not encourage investors to put money in this vitally important sector? Why not encourage fund management companies, pension fund managers and other holders of investment capital to put the country back on its feet and make it a world leader in a field of economic activity the world needs?
I strongly criticise Rajoy for not 'thinking outside the box'.
Now I'd love someone to criticise my suggestions. 
Criticism is a neutral term, it shouldn't be hostile.
This would have environmental as well as other benefits as these countries are going to be huge consumers of energy as their economies expand.
.


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> Alca is surely asking for serious constructive suggestions...


Sorry if my interpretation of _views_ was incorrect.
I was simply trying to join in the conversation.
But now I think I will leave you to your debate.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Solwriter said:


> Sorry if my interpretation of _views_ was incorrect.
> I was simply trying to join in the conversation.
> But now I think I will leave you to your debate.


It's an old difference of opinion.
I happen to think a criticism is a very valid opinion. Knowing what is wrong with a proposal is half the battle. If you also have a proposal to make, all the better, but not obligatory.
PS My armchair is also a recliner (think Joey's apartment in Friends) and I'm very comfortable in it!!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> I strongly criticise Rajoy for not 'thinking outside the box'.
> Now I'd love someone to criticise my suggestions.
> Criticism is a neutral term, it shouldn't be hostile.
> This would have environmental as well as other benefits as these countries are going to be huge consumers of energy as their economies expand.
> .


I also criticise this government, and the previous for that matter, for not thinking outside the box. 
A government is obliged to look at not only what *is* happening, but what _*might*_ happen and what *will* happen. Where's the future in these proposals? In which ways is the world growing? Are we looking at fossil fuels for example or renewable energy? Are we looking at a declining motor industry? (I can answer that myself - yes!) What have we got in place to take over the gap left by this market?? Could we expand on the fact the Spain is one of the biggest organ donors in the world and therefore has one of the best donor - recipient chains set up? Could we sell these ideas and technology? It's not very outside the box, but you get what I mean. Stop thinking about just the travel industry the building industry and doing little jobs to tidy up the streets in each municipio. Invest in jobs that have a *real*, and *long term* future. For all the half baked ideas that we Mrs. on the street may have, they are the government. They have the facts and figures. They have to move!


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

_There was a hospital. The chief surgeon performed ten operations per week. Each week 5 patients died on the operating table. The chief administrator knew something was wrong but of course he could not say anything because not being a trained surgeon he could not offer a solution. So the people carried on dying._ 

On the subject my spanish family see these changes as largely "getting more work for less money out of the working classes and in reality reducing the family economy". And at the same time weakening the right to resist. It has more to do with maintaining the corrupt controllers than resolving problems long term.

Clearly any 'chorizo' can find an unemployed person and an employed person. Take the 1000Es per month of the employed, give both shortterm contracts on 400 Es per month, and pocket the saved 200 Es. 

The solution must be to engage the masses in social responsibility. Luckily there are people in Spain working on that 

I expect nothing better from Rajoy, especially in the minmal time he has had. The truth is the hole would not be quite so deep if PSOE had been more honest IMHO


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

I would criticise as follows:

no attempt as yet to reform the inefficient and unfair tax system


I think there should be:

a shift in the balance of taxation towards unearned income especially that derived from property
a progressive system for taxing the self-employed
a serious attempt to tackle the black economy
strengthening of the tax inspectorate with further investigate powers as with HMRC

Further criticism:

No EU Government has spoken against a market dominated society and for a market that serves society's needs.

Rajoy should therefore speak for the traditional European social market model which is based not only on the values of compassion and fairness but also arises from the Cathiolic tradition of social responsibility

I guess my jibe at armchair critics can be turned against myself as I'm merely firing off ideas I've no means of getting anyone to take notice of. It is very depressing to contemplate one's powerlessness in so-called democracies.
Democracy, like religion, is what has been called a 'useful myth'.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I also criticise this government, and the previous for that matter, for not thinking outside the box.
> A government is obliged to look at not only what *is* happening, but what _*might*_ happen and what *will* happen. Where's the future in these proposals? In which ways is the world growing? Are we looking at fossil fuels for example or renewable energy? Are we looking at a declining motor industry? (I can answer that myself - yes!) What have we got in place to take over the gap left by this market?? Could we expand on the fact the Spain is one of the biggest organ donors in the world and therefore has one of the best donor - recipient chains set up? Could we sell these ideas and technology? It's not very outside the box, but you get what I mean. Stop thinking about just the travel industry the building industry and doing little jobs to tidy up the streets in each municipio. Invest in jobs that have a *real*, and *long term* future. For all the half baked ideas that we Mrs. on the street may have, they are the government. They have the facts and figures. They have to move!



Some parts of the world are growing and enterprising governments have expanded trade links with these regions. China, India, Russia, Brazil are the examples always put forward. True, they started from a lower base so you'd expect rapid growth. An interesting point is that these countries have resisted the imposition of the Anglo-Saxon economic model and remained less severely affected by its current contradictions.

I did say that renewable energy should be the focus. The motor industry is not in overall decline - new types of engine based on renewable energy sources are being developed - hybrid cars are the first step.
I also put forward ideas for 'real' job creation and you are right that tourism and construction are not the way to go. Both are fickle industries, especially tourism.

Re your last sentence: the government surely is not and never should be something separate,apart from the people. The people put it there using the system we have which is not perfect but the best on offer. Part of the problem is that once an election has taken place people lose interest in politics. They leave it to the government to carry on regardless.
The machinery is there so we should use it if we are to be more than complainers.
If we don't like our politicians...whose job is it to change them for better ones??? Ours.
where do these undesireable politicians come from: why, political parties.
Are they closed shops? No, anyone can join.
Are they corrupt? Probably.
How can I change this? By joining in where you can make a difference. If we all did it we could make a difference.
As someone said a couple of hundred years ago: the rich and powerful are few. If we really wanted to overthrow them, we could. But that takes unity and it cannot be a unity founded on ideology whether of left or right. All utopias flounder on the rocks of human nature. I think we need to reconsider values.

In a month's time there will be regional elections. It seems likely that the PP will gain control of most of them.
While people are discussing how to abolish capitalism and other such utopian and pointless projects, politicians with mandates will go on doing things many of us don't like.
And they will go on doing it as long as their opposition consists of romantic dreamers, impossible idealists and people who, if ever given control over a country, would plunge it into even worse chaos through their sheer lack of grasp as to how things work.
We will be banging on about this for years without any real change.


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> If you think something is wrong surely you must have some idea as to how to do things in a better way? Criticism implies you have a better idea, surely...





Pesky Wesky said:


> It's an old difference of opinion.
> I happen to think a criticism is a very valid opinion. Knowing what is wrong with a proposal is half the battle. If you also have a proposal to make, all the better, but not obligatory.
> PS My armchair is also a recliner (think Joey's apartment in Friends) and I'm very comfortable in it!!


That is what I would have said, had I not been feeling so tired!
I came in here, as I often do, for a break between hours of struggling to work to a deadline with an on and off internet. That is my working reality. I work because I have to and it's damn frustrating!
(and incidentally, what I would like to see is a more realistic payments system for autonomos).

And I wish I had an armchair to write from, but that's taken up by at least three dogs at a time! 



mrypg9 said:


> I'm used to having my ideas scorned, rejected, improved....and then coming back with more arguments.


That's great, but sometimes I just feel like contributing to a discussion, without having a full blown political argument with facts and figures and full analysis of various ideological viewpoints.
On those occasions, I simply post as I see things from my point of view.
And yes, I know full well how serious this is, but we all have our different views on how this affects us. Only after recognising these can we begin to think of alternative solutions.

Ok....



mrypg9 said:


> I would criticise as follows:
> 
> no attempt as yet to reform the inefficient and unfair tax system
> 
> ...


Although I agree in principal, I do think that this may have a further negative impact on the property market.
Many people who bought holiday homes here some years ago are only just beginning to find out the taxable consequences, as are those who live abroad and rent their properties for part of the year.
Now, although I agree that it is right that these people pay tax on their second homes and on the profits they make from lettings, knowledge of this has added to the slowdown in the selling of homes to foreign buyers.
Added to this, tax on rented property is fairly substantial for Spanish property owners, which may be exacerbating the problem of so many empty house, and thus the downfall of the whole building industry.
Which of course brings us back to jobs....
I'm not saying don't tax unearned income from property, but I am saying perhaps look at the system of taxation for this before treating everyone with rentable property exactly the same.


mrypg9 said:


> a progressive system for taxing the self-employed


Yes definitely! And make it a system unhindered by bureaucracy (but that would be too much to ask). This would _not_ solve all problems with the black economy overnight, but in the cases of workers who want to pay tax and insurance on their incomes, but cannot because of the high and constant level of payments, it would help a great deal.


mrypg9 said:


> a serious attempt to tackle the black economy


I think that this can only happen, realistically, once the tax system is revised.


mrypg9 said:


> strengthening of the tax inspectorate with further investigate powers as with HMRC


Same here.

I'll be back with some ideas when I've written (and struggled to upload) more advertising copy for one of my capitalist sponsors.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Solwriter said:


> That is what I would have said, had I not been feeling so tired!
> I came in here, as I often do, for a break between hours of struggling to work to a deadline with an on and off internet. That is my working reality. I work because I have to and it's damn frustrating!
> (and incidentally, what I would like to see is a more realistic payments system for autonomos).
> 
> And I wish I had an armchair to write from, but that's taken up by at least three dogs at a time!


Yes, I did see the time of the post and wondered if that had anything to do with what you had written!

I don't write from the arm chair. It's usually occupied by my husband...

And as a, not very high earner autónoma myself, yes - get the autónomo payments worked out now!!



> ...sometimes I just feel like contributing to a discussion, without having a full blown political argument with facts and figures and full analysis of various ideological viewpoints.
> On those occasions, I simply post as I see things from my point of view.


Me too!!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Solwriter said:


> That is what I would have said, had I not been feeling so tired!
> I came in here, as I often do, for a break between hours of struggling to work to a deadline with an on and off internet. That is my working reality. I work because I have to and it's damn frustrating!
> (and incidentally, what I would like to see is a more realistic payments system for autonomos).
> 
> ...


Look forward to your post. I must admit it's difficult for me to see anything remotely political as not deadly serious. That's what comes of decades of total immersion in political and trades union life where all your leisure activities, most of your friends, are involved as I was. I should have got a life...
The tax on property income is low, though, isn't it, compared to that on earned income?

Btw...we're all capitalists


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

Ok. Here are my thoughts on how to improve the job situation in Spain and Spain's economy as a whole. 

*Education:*
The fear at the moment is that Spain is going to use its youth as a result of mass youth unemployment. And,unlike, for example, the UK (where although graduates find it hard to get a job, unskilled workers find it even harder), it appears to be well-qualified younger people in Spain who are having the most difficulty getting work.
This is not to say that all youth unemployment isnt bad. It is. But if Spain loses access to a highly qualified, Spanish-educated workforce, they will lose the scientists, doctors, technicians, engineers, lawyers, business leaders, innovators and thinkers of a whole generation.
Spain has some excellent universities. Already, foreign students come to Spain to study. Universities need to do more to encourage this. Parents (who can) are still willing to pay for a good education for their children. Spanish universities need to be at the forefront of their list of choices.

But what happens after qualifications? Spain needs to keep its graduates.
Spanish Universities also need to ensure they have excellent contacts with all industries, for graduate jobs and to help with funding.
Of course, this can only be achieved if there are positions to fill. And this can only be achieved when Spain is seen as a centre of excellence for a number of industries.
I know that encouraging business growth is difficult, given that Spanish workers are, at the moment, more expensive to employ than, for example, German workers.
That needs sorting out at the Euro level.

But here are some ideas where Spain can really make its mark:
*Tourism:*
Although I agree that Spain cannot rely upon the tourist industry to be one of the main sources of income, I think it would be a mistake to sideline it at this time.
With everyone tightening their purse strings, there will be many in the UK who still want to go abroad for their holidays, but who will be looking for the best deals possible.
Throughout Europe, there will also be those who want to travel South. Spain needs to be _the_ place they go to, rather than Italy, Greece, etc.
Tourism provides so many jobs, directly and indirectly. 
It is an industry where people of all ages could work, and particularly younger workers.
Handled correctly, Spanish tourism isn't just about sea, sun and sangria, as many still see it. It can be a cultural, social and business experience.
Inland cities like Sevilla and Granada rely as much upon 'city breaks' and business conferences as they do upon longer breaks. And these can occur all the year round.
Spanish tourism, handled correctly, could provide well paid, secure jobs, rather than being based upon temporary, seasonal workers as a lot of it is now.

It is up to the Spanish Central and Regional Governments to get together with all businesses who rely upon tourism to come to a solution how this can be achieved. 
(This, incidentally, will need new deals with airlines, because giving in to the demands of certain low cost airlines has brought many inland airports to their knees).

*Health Care:*
The Spanish NHS is under great pressure right now, which is a shame as Spain is at the forefront of the practice of many ground breaking medical techniques. Off the top of my head, I can say that Orthopaedics and Heart Surgery in Spain are considered among the best in the modern world.
Already, Spain is considered a place for 'medical tourism', but at the moment, this appears to be more in the 'cosmetic surgery and cosmetic dentistry' areas, where small, private companies are (forgive the pun) making a killing out of this. 
I am not a great supporter of private healthcare and strongly believe that everyone should have access to the best healthcare available. But if there was a viable way for Spanish doctors, surgeons, technicions, etc, up to and including large state hospitals, to take full advantage of the trend for medical tourism, in a legitimate and ethical way, then this at least could help Spain to keep its doctors and nurses and make room for more.

*The IT Industry:*
Spanish youth in particular, and the Spanish population as a whole, have a rapidly growing interest in everything IT-based.
In the few years since we arrived here, we have seen most of our bills transferred from pay at the bank or the local authority office, to pay online. This assumes (correctly) that even in the most remote areas, people have access to the internet.
Mobile phones, Wii, PlayStations, XBoxes, Nintendo DS's, etc, all can use the internet. And the population as a whole, especially the young, are becoming very IT savy.
Many young people, male and female, could very easily be trained in the IT industry... if jobs were available.
The problem here is that the internet in Spain is growing so quickly that the system is being saturated and the old infrastructure cannot cope.
3g, WIMAX and Satellite companies are pushing their goods, but at the moment they are still at infancy stage and limited by area or cost.
Investment in the basic Telefonica-run infrastructure would pay huge dividends in the long run, both at a national and international level, in terms of jobs and Spain's ability to be a force in the modern world.

But overall, I would say that, for any long term plan for jobs to work, there has to be a way for Spain to promote itself as a World leader, rather than a follower.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Solwriter said:


> Ok. Here are my thoughts on how to improve the job situation in Spain and Spain's economy as a whole.
> 
> *Education:*
> The fear at the moment is that Spain is going to use its youth as a result of mass youth unemployment. And,unlike, for example, the UK (where although graduates find it hard to get a job, unskilled workers find it even harder), it appears to be well-qualified younger people in Spain who are having the most difficulty getting work.
> ...


I'm not to sure about what you have written Solwriter.

*Education*
Yes, it's difficult for young qualified people to get work, but I think it's difficult for *any* young people to get work (or indeed anyone). It's not a bad idea to encourage foreign students to come here, but I don't know if they are already doing it. And how are they going to do it if they are cutting university resources?
One of the problems of Spanish universities is that too many students are going. I don't mean that they are over subscribed just that too many people are getting degrees. The government is spending too much on giving university education and many young people are over qualified. There are too many pharmacists for example. FP needs to be promoted as a valuable place of higher education and a wider variety of courses offered.
But none of this solves the problem of unemployment as you say; it only works if there are positions to fill.
I think the education system needs to change completely, from primary to university and including teacher training, and no government is going to take that on right now.

*Tourism*
I think it has already opened up other types of tourism and it's functioning well.
The south costas have to decide where they're going though, and I hope it's away from Saloufest and its like, but I fear not.

Taken from an older thread...

Well, it has been advertising itself in a "different" way for quite some time now
Green Spain in Spain | Tourism in Spain | Spain.info in english

This was the 2010 campaign which, although still includes plenty of beach scenes (especially the first ad - get to the last few) also shows the Prado, Camino de Santiago, the Alhambra, football, golf...





Over the years turismo rural has become huge.
Casas rurales en España. Toprural

Also spas,Balnearios, Hoteles, SPA y Talasoterapia en España Portugal y Andorra | SPA Natura 

wine tourism Asociación Española de Enoturismo y Turismo Gastronómico

and golf (Unfortunately. Most of the areas that promote golf don't have adequate water supplies and will do long term damage to the environment. Look at this Impact of golf courses: social, environmental and economic). 


Many of these markets, notably rural turism attract a mainly Spanish market. Prices are good and quality is high.

That's where I hope tourism in Spain is going for the time being 

This is the thread if you're interested
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...-living-spain/69137-will-tourism-recover.html
What I mean is that I think Spain *is* opening up to different types of tourism.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

And continuing...

*Health Care*
I'm not sure about other countries in Europe, but medical care in _*some*_ areas in Spain could run rings around _*some*_ places in the UK, but the cuts are here and more on the way...
I think you're right though, here is a "new" area where Spain could make its mark - you talk about Orthopaedics and Heart Surgery, and I have mentined donations (liver, kidneys, lungs etc) before. 
Research is definitely on the decline here and many breakthroughs in recent years have been spearheaded by Spaniards who have left the country. So get more research funded here.

*IT*
I think this is already happening. Young people are being trained in these areas. Telefónica has been invested in.

I believe Spain needs _*new*_ industries, and/ or _*new ways to work with the old industries*_. Instead of the building industry for example why not specialise in the reconstruction industry to rebuild the old buildings in towns and villages that are also part of Spain's history. Become specialist in eco constructions would be another area for expansion. With technology expand on intelligent buildings. This way we are expanding on the building industry which already exists, and bringing it up to date with out building for the sake of it
The same that is happening to the tourist industry - expanding on something that already works and exists.

And then we need to take ideas from other countries and make them our own instead of letting them "invade the territory" A Spanish Mc Donalds, a Spanish Ikea, a Spanish Leroy Merlin. It could be done so easily, especially the Ikea. Where I am there is a whole area devoted to Pine wood furnishing made with local wood Montes de Valsaín - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre and I'm sure there are other areas. (If you go for it, count me in!)

And then we need NEW industries in areas that I don't even know exist. 

So


 Build and expand on what the Spanish already know how to do well.
 Take other ideas and make them Spanish.
 Invest in the new


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I'm not to sure about what you have written Solwriter.
> 
> *Education*
> Yes, it's difficult for young qualified people to get work, but I think it's difficult for *any* young people to get work (or indeed anyone). It's not a bad idea to encourage foreign students to come here, but I don't know if they are already doing it. And how are they going to do it if they are cutting university resources?


That is my point.
Without those foreign students (and input from national and international industries), there will not be enough money for university resources.
Spanish universities have to be centres of excellence where parents from all over the world want to invest in their children's further and higher education.



Pesky Wesky said:


> One of the problems of Spanish universities is that too many students are going. I don't mean that they are over subscribed just that too many people are getting degrees. The government is spending too much on giving university education and many young people are over qualified.


That's the same argument you hear in the UK. 
Part of me agrees with this, as you could see this as a way to 'massage' unemployment figures by encouraging young people to join courses where their qualifications will mean little.
But the other part of me argues that further and higher education should always be invested in and encouraged, even in times of austerity. Because without well qualified young people (able to think and analyze for themselves), the future of the country will be in an even worse state.
You also say that too much money is being spent on giving university education, but also say that university resources are being cut. So I take it that you mean the government is encouraging young people to go to university, but not funding the universities accordingly?
Hence my suggestion about more funding from abroad and from national and international industry.



Pesky Wesky said:


> FP needs to be promoted as a valuable place of higher education and a wider variety of courses offered.


Agree absolutely.



Pesky Wesky said:


> But none of this solves the problem of unemployment as you say; it only works if there are positions to fill.
> I think the education system needs to change completely, from primary to university and including teacher training, and no government is going to take that on right now.


Agreed. Sadly. 



Pesky Wesky said:


> *Tourism*
> I think it has already opened up other types of tourism and it's functioning well.
> The south costas have to decide where they're going though, and I hope it's away from Saloufest and its like, but I fear not.....


Thanks for all the links.
I'll have a look at those later (and probably comment )


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

Pesky Wesky said:


> And continuing...


I agree with this post absolutely... apart from a couple of things. 



Pesky Wesky said:


> *Health Care*
> I'm not sure about other countries in Europe, but medical care in _*some*_ areas in Spain could run rings around _*some*_ places in the UK, but the cuts are here and more on the way...
> I think you're right though, here is a "new" area where Spain could make its mark - you talk about Orthopaedics and Heart Surgery, and I have mentined donations (liver, kidneys, lungs etc) before.
> Research is definitely on the decline here and many breakthroughs in recent years have been spearheaded by Spaniards who have left the country. So get more research funded here.


I agree, but I'm going to suggest something which may seem controversial to some....
In my experience, a major proportion of Spanish doctors, surgeons and researchers still working in Spain are unable to speak English. They also publish their findings only in Spanish. Now one could say 'why should they speak English? Surely they have enough to do, learning and undertaking research?'
But English is the international language of research in the areas in which Spanish health care excels. 
When hospitals and research centres from all over the World are competing for funding for the next great health breakthroughs, well written research papers in English and communications in English might be more likely to gain the attention of those offering the funding. 




Pesky Wesky said:


> *IT*
> I think this is already happening. Young people are being trained in these areas. Telefónica has been invested in.


But nowhere near enough (or perhaps the money has gone to the wrong places?).
Telefónica infrastructure is still very poor. Based upon a very old network on cables and exchanges badly in need of changing, it can be nothing else. 
I cannot speak for the major cities, where I guess that the service and infrastructure is good, but in rural areas and even largish towns, vast amounts of changes are required.
Nowadays Telefónica appears to employ poorly trained outside contractors to do 'patch and repair' jobs. Probably at more cost than employing their own workforce.
But that's a digression.... 




Pesky Wesky said:


> I believe Spain needs _*new*_ industries, and/ or _*new ways to work with the old industries*_. Instead of the building industry for example why not specialise in the reconstruction industry to rebuild the old buildings in towns and villages that are also part of Spain's history. Become specialist in eco constructions would be another area for expansion. With technology expand on intelligent buildings. This way we are expanding on the building industry which already exists, and bringing it up to date with out building for the sake of it
> The same that is happening to the tourist industry - expanding on something that already works and exists.
> 
> And then we need to take ideas from other countries and make them our own instead of letting them "invade the territory" A Spanish Mc Donalds, a Spanish Ikea, a Spanish Leroy Merlin. It could be done so easily, especially the Ikea. Where I am there is a whole area devoted to Pine wood furnishing made with local wood Montes de Valsaín - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre and I'm sure there are other areas. (If you go for it, count me in!)
> ...


Excellent suggestions!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

The first priority is for any Spanish Government to gain control over its own economic programme which it currently is not - like all other EU states it is at the mercy of the markets.
The second is to find money to finance the excellent schemes that have been suggested.
I do not think Spain will ever be able to compete in certain sectors of the IT industry which is not a monolith but has very very many specialities. India, the UK and the US are currently world leaders in many IT specialist fields, particularly in the financial sector.
If Spain is to have a silicon valley/fen of its own it must surely focus on renewable energy and green technology.
Spain's universities do not as yet have world ranking and prestige to attract foreign students. But that could change if centres of green technology excellence were developed around existing Faculties with some experience of R&D and also production engineering in these fields.
A point about UK universities: it's the quality of many University degrees that are being questioned. That and that fact that when everyone has a degree, the degree loses value. The fact that some Universities are having to offer basic literacy and numeracy courses to freshman students speaks volumes. Discerning employers are looking at the University that awarded the degree and not whether it's a First or whatever.
Tourism....it's a fickle industry. The kind of tourism that will earn Spain revenue isn't the mass-market budget family tourism or these 'all-inclusive' holidays that are now heavily promoted. Some companies have slashed prices by up to 60% on Spanish holidays...a race to the bottom does no good to anyone. Quality tourism focusing on 'niche' activities -walking , riding, golfing, art and architecture...these are the sectors that will bring in money.
But to embark on any job creation scheme Spain needs money and current yields will not permit the amount of borrowing needed to fund these schemes.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> And continuing...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't think it could be done that easily. The brands you mention are global and extremely well-established.
It would take years and huge amounts of capital to be able to compete with these giants let alone knock the invaders completely out of the Spanish market.
Before anyone invests money in a venture of that kind a huge amount of markwet research is needed and I think the recommendation at the bottom of the page would be a resounding 'Not Feasible'.


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> The fact that some Universities are having to offer basic literacy and numeracy courses to freshman students speaks volumes.


I used to teach at a well established 'Red Brick' university in the UK. The students there had acquired high results at A level in the subjects I taught.
Nevertheless, one of my roles as personal tutor was to help students with basic literacy. Many of these A grade students also attended GCSE maths courses in case they wanted to go on to take a PGCE.
It's not just a problem for Spanish universities.


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> But to embark on any job creation scheme Spain needs money and current yields will not permit the amount of borrowing needed to fund these schemes.


You see, this is the problem which the new labour laws cannot solve. And one of the reasons why any new labour law will be attacked by large numbers of the general public.
It is also one of the reasons why my first post was a criticism without offering alternatives.
The best that any new labour law can do right now is chip away at the surface.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Solwriter said:


> You see, this is the problem which the new labour laws cannot solve. And one of the reasons why any new labour law will be attacked by large numbers of the general public.
> It is also one of the reasons why my first post was a criticism without offering alternatives.
> The best that any new labour law can do right now is chip away at the surface.


But because there is a larger obstacle to reform doesn't imply that nothing can opr should be done within those constraints.
The best a new set of labour laws can do nopw is enable some PYMES to take on more staff and others to let go staff they can't afford to keep.
Every person who gets a job through these measures is a happier person.
Rajoy alone can't change the prevailing economic free market philosophy. But he was elected and has a responsibility to do something however small in the global scale of things. If he had done nothing there would have been mighty uproar from the expected quarters.
Change is slowly beginning to come. You can see it in all sorts of small ways, especially in the UK. It is evolutionary not revolutionary and that is the best kind of change as it comes from ordinary people who have had enough.
Revolutions are top-down and rarely if ever reflect the will of anyone but a handful of dedicated revolutionaries.
The only exceptions I can think of are the revolutions which kicked out socialist totalitarian regimes in Eastern and Central Europe.
We can expedite the process by participating in the channels that matter, by putting forward an alternative model of a social market economy which puts social cohesion and people's needs before profit.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> I don't think it could be done that easily. The brands you mention are global and extremely well-established.
> It would take years and huge amounts of capital to be able to compete with these giants let alone knock the invaders completely out of the Spanish market.
> Before anyone invests money in a venture of that kind a huge amount of markwet research is needed and I think the recommendation at the bottom of the page would be a resounding 'Not Feasible'.


But I never contemplated elbowing them out, just offering a homegrown version. I don't think it would be so difficult - if you were a tycoon with lots of dosh behind you. With the way things are going - the divide between the haves and have nots getting bigger there'll be more and more of those around.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Solwriter said:


> I agree, but I'm going to suggest something which may seem controversial to some....
> In my experience, a major proportion of Spanish doctors, surgeons and researchers still working in Spain are unable to speak English. They also publish their findings only in Spanish. Now one could say 'why should they speak English? Surely they have enough to do, learning and undertaking research?'
> But English is the international language of research in the areas in which Spanish health care excels.
> When hospitals and research centres from all over the World are competing for funding for the next great health breakthroughs, well written research papers in English and communications in English might be more likely to gain the attention of those offering the funding.


I don't think it's controversial at all. Plenty of other professions have found English to be an obligation, there's no reason why doctors shouldn't be proficient in English.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Solwriter said:


> But the other part of me argues that further and higher education should always be invested in and encouraged, even in times of austerity. Because without well qualified young people (able to think and analyze for themselves), the future of the country will be in an even worse state.


I never thought I would say this, and I'm ready for you all to convince me I'm wrong. I've always believed in education, and in particular university education as a way to open your mind, to train and stretch your mind to appreciate different ways of thinking, analysing and reasoning, not merely as a way to get a job in a chosen area. In fact I think I've written to that effect here on the forum.. 

But perhaps that's for times of bonanza. When there's no money to heat some of the countries schools (Madrid, Valencia), perhaps the time for university education for all has passed. And I am *sure *that keeping young people in education is a way of keeping the unemployment figures down, but it's an expensive way

I'm also begining to think that a small charge for library books may be a good, temporary measure too...


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I don't think it's controversial at all. Plenty of other professions have found English to be an obligation, there's no reason why doctors shouldn't be proficient in English.


BUT the doctors who are into research etc probably can speak English to a reasonably proficient level but the average GP which is what most people on the forum complain about probably won't .. Of course, he/she would also have to speak Romanian, German, Dutch, etc. Sorry but for all those expats who complain that their GP doesn't speak their language - why don't YOU learn theirs?

As for university education, for the most part it is completely wasted here as it is in UK where so many students are just using it as an excuse to avoid getting out and start earning a proper living, which, invariable the easy-option subjects they are studying probably will not qualify them for. My neighbour's daughter is a case in point - she is 30 and has been studying Egyptology at her parents' expense - she has absolutely no job prospects as a result of it and now is faced with the option of some mediocre administration job (if she can pass the exams - she has failed twice!) or get married and have a family.


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## brocher (Mar 21, 2011)

Successive governments in the UK have introduced schemes over the years, offering potential employers inducements to take on youngsters, long term unemployed, etc. - YOP's, adult apprenticeships, temporary reduction in NI contributions etc. 

I have honestly never heard of any reputable employer taking someone on permanently, as a result of one of these schemes. If they can afford an extra worker, they will take them on regardless. If they can't afford it, then they still can't afford it, even if the tax/NI or some other subsidy is given for six months or a year.

Much of the "help" - retraining, etc is absolutely fruitless and only succeeds in fudging unemployment rates.


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> But because there is a larger obstacle to reform doesn't imply that nothing can opr should be done within those constraints....
> ...Ra joy alone can't change the prevailing economic free market philosophy. But he was elected and has a responsibility to do something however small in the global scale of things. If he had done nothing there would have been mighty uproar from the expected quarters.


I agree. I was simply noting that very little can be done effectively within those constraints.


mrypg9 said:


> The best a new set of labour laws can do nopw is enable some PYMES to take on more staff and others to let go staff they can't afford to keep.
> Every person who gets a job through these measures is a happier person.


And every person who loses their job, because their employer is now free to let them go at a lesser cost, or who is kept longer on a temporary contract, rather than being given a secure job, is an unhappier person.
Swings and roundabouts. Some employers will be happier. Some new workers will be happier. Others will not.

Sorry to sound negative. I would love to be positive about this. 
But to me the reforms read, as I said, like chipping away at the surface of a massive problem which appears insurmountable at present.



mrypg9 said:


> Change is slowly beginning to come. You can see it in all sorts of small ways, especially in the UK. It is evolutionary not revolutionary and that is the best kind of change as it comes from ordinary people who have had enough.
> Revolutions are top-down and rarely if ever reflect the will of anyone but a handful of dedicated revolutionaries.
> The only exceptions I can think of are the revolutions which kicked out socialist totalitarian regimes in Eastern and Central Europe.
> *We can expedite the process by participating in the channels that matter, by putting forward an alternative model of a social market economy which puts social cohesion and people's needs before profit.*


Sounds good (and I'm not knocking this and would like to hear more). But this would be a _very_ long term process. In the meantime, more people are becoming unemployed, homeless, and hungry.


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

baldilocks said:


> BUT the doctors who are into research etc probably can speak English to a reasonably proficient level but the average GP which is what most people on the forum complain about probably won't .. Of course, he/she would also have to speak Romanian, German, Dutch, etc. Sorry but for all those expats who complain that their GP doesn't speak their language - why don't YOU learn theirs?


Pesky was answering my post, where I said that it would help if researchers in medical science (surgeons and biologists in particular I would say), were able to communicate their research in English, as this is the language of medical research.
I for one would not expect my local medico to speak English (although it would be nice if she did ). I was making the case for medical researchers to be able to state their case (and hopefully gain more recognition and funding) on an international scale.



baldilocks said:


> As for university education, for the most part it is completely wasted here as it is in UK where so many students are just using it as an excuse to avoid getting out and start earning a proper living, which, invariable the easy-option subjects they are studying probably will not qualify them for. My neighbour's daughter is a case in point - she is 30 and has been studying Egyptology at her parents' expense - she has absolutely no job prospects as a result of it and now is faced with the option of some mediocre administration job (if she can pass the exams - she has failed twice!) or get married and have a family.


I agree that over the last decade or so, there have been too many university courses 'invented' which, although very interesting for the students, will provide them with very limited qualifications to fit the working environment.
And, as mrypg9 has argued in several of her posts, employers nowadays are looking at the university as much, if not more than, the degree when choosing from their lists of applicants, which works out badly for those gaining degrees, however good, from any of the 'new universities'.
But I cannot dismiss so many students as 'using it as an excuse to avoid getting out and start earning a proper living'. After all, if all those students had joined the workforce at 18, or even 16, where would they all have found employment?

I actually blame governments for this, in the UK and in Spain, as, like others here are saying, this does look like they saw this as a way to massage unemployment figures.
But I also blame the universities themselves, for jumping on the bandwagon and providing courses where they knew most of their students had little hope of using their degrees in the workforce.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Solwriter said:


> But this would be a _very_ long term process. In the meantime, more people are becoming unemployed, homeless, and hungry.



Yes, it would. But real change occurs, builds up, over time. That's how democratic societies work. It's beginning now...lots of little rivulets joining to make tributaries to make the mainstream....
We have seen two major 'sea changes' in my lifetime. The first began after WW2 with the accepted notion that the state had a responsibility for welfare and, importantly, to maintain full employment. This came about as a result of the mood and desire of the people not to be pushed back to the pre-war situation.
That post-war consensus began to erode in the late 1970s. It became unworkable for several reasons, both internal in the UK (the Unions' refusal to accept the proposals of the Bullock Report) and external (the erosion of our trade advantages and the oil price rise shock). 
Then there came about another sea change, this time encouraged by powerful vested interests on the producer side, which found its expression in the free market philosophy of the Austrian School - Hayek, Friedmann et al - and its vehicle in the Chicago School, the political expression of which was the Washington Consensus that liberal democracy and free markets are the ultimate goal of ALL societies regardless of culture. 
We are now witnessing the results of this daft ideology - for it's an ideology, a secular religion like fascism, socialism, national socialism. People are realising the falsity and downright evil of this creed, pushed by supra-national organisations such as the IMF, WTO and alas the EU amongst others and propagated by the Republican Governments in the US and Governments of both Conservatives and New Labour in the UK.
Now..you can impose a change of government by revolution but you can't win hearts and minds. Think of how easily the former socialist states shrugged off fifty years or more of 'official ideology'.
Real change, changed that is truly democratic, comes from the people themselves, bubbling up in all sorts of ways. But we have to be patient because as Thatcher found you can force change only up to a point.
We can encourage change by participating in REALISTIC dialogue - loads of examples of it here. Maybe we should offer ourselves as political advisors.....

Alcalaina, if you read this: I think your idea of a Maximum Wage is a good one and should be promoted if only as a means of starting a debate as to how great a degree of inequality we as a society are prepared to accept and tolerate.


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> Yes, it would. But real change occurs, builds up, over time. That's how democratic societies work. It's beginning now...lots of little rivulets joining to make tributaries to make the mainstream....
> We have seen two major 'sea changes' in my lifetime. The first began after WW2 with the accepted notion that the state had a responsibility for welfare and, importantly, to maintain full employment. This came about as a result of the mood and desire of the people not to be pushed back to the pre-war situation.
> That post-war consensus began to erode in the late 1970s. It became unworkable for several reasons, both internal in the UK (the Unions' refusal to accept the proposals of the Bullock Report) and external (the erosion of our trade advantages and the oil price rise shock).
> Then there came about another sea change, this time encouraged by powerful vested interests on the producer side, which found its expression in the free market philosophy of the Austrian School - Hayek, Friedmann et al - and its vehicle in the Chicago School, the political expression of which was the Washington Consensus that liberal democracy and free markets are the ultimate goal of ALL societies regardless of culture.
> ...


All good stuff.
But a few people talking on an expat forum is somewhat limited.
(although I guess we could hope that Google picks up the keywords in these debates up so more will see them...)
What I'm looking for are ways to encourage change at local level. Not simply by speaking at political meetings (attended mainly by the few), but within communities themselves.
And I'm _really_ open to suggestions here.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Solwriter said:


> All good stuff.
> But a few people talking on an expat forum is somewhat limited.
> (although I guess we could hope that Google picks up the keywords in these debates up so more will see them...)
> What I'm looking for are ways to encourage change at local level. Not simply by speaking at political meetings (attended mainly by the few), but within communities themselves.
> And I'm _really_ open to suggestions here.


More people are talking in this way than we realise,I believe. It's very important to talk to communities and not committees - that's where the left went wrong.
But don't underestimate the role of political parties and trades unions...because they have power, power to change government. 
Two examples: in the late 1970s and 1980s the UK Labour Party was deeply infiltrated by the Trotskyite Miltant Tendency as were some Trades Unions. They were responsible for deselecting standing MPS (sometimes a Good Thing) and for the policies that led to the crushing 1983 defeat. Now's the time for social democrats, small 'c' conservatives to get down and dirty. Both in the UK and here in Spain ..consider what the effect would be if the Parties were taken over by a load of people like us...people without ideological hangups, with slight differences as to road maps but united in our destination.
Second example: the legislation which enabled Civil Partnerships and survivor pension rights for same-sex couples came as a result of two things: a motion at TUC (which I am so proud of having moved) and a Judicial Review of the UK expression of the EU Directive which required legislation to protect the employment rights of LGB people. (I am also proud of being the instigator of that which resulted in seven Unions clubbing together to support the huge legal bill). The Government knew that they were beaten and that a challenge in the European Court would be the next step unless it moved on the issue. (I was suggested as a 'test case'). The Government accepted an amendment permitting CPs which led to survivor pension benefits for same-sex CP couples. 
Real change has historically come about through Parliament. Yes, we know it's an imperfect institution...but it functions. And it does eventually recognise and react to public opinion. Public attitudes to homosexuality, racism, gender equality in the UK and Spain have changed dramatically over the past few decades.
When we were politically active in the UK we had Labour Party members 'embedded' in every club and society from the Women's Institute to the Ramblers, from the History Society to the Real Ale Appreciation Society.
When I go to the UK in April I'm on a mission: to get my General Secretary to speak out forcefully not only against Coalition policies but at the philosophy behind them. Our Constitution prevents us being party-political but it doesn't say anything about attacking political philosophies. If she won't I shall get off my backside and raise my little voice to that effect.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Solwriter said:


> All good stuff.
> But a few people talking on an expat forum is somewhat limited.
> (although I guess we could hope that Google picks up the keywords in these debates up so more will see them...)
> What I'm looking for are ways to encourage change at local level. Not simply by speaking at political meetings (attended mainly by the few), but within communities themselves.
> And I'm _really_ open to suggestions here.


It is the old story of "Mighty oaks from little acorns grow" A few people on here 'talking', then each talking to others etc etc etc. It is like those e-mails that say send to ten of your friends within five minutes.. and so-on. In just a few hours the same message could reach the entire world population. Yeah, OK it wouldn't work because there are too many people motivated by self-interest rather that what is the best for all - the likes of Camoron and Clogg et al.

BTW what's happened to Cloggy we don't seem to be hearing much about him lately or is he tied up with being a stand-in for Peter Sallis in a "Last of the Summer Wine" remake?


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> When we were politically active in the UK we had Labour Party members 'embedded' in every club and society from the Women's Institute to the Ramblers, from the History Society to the Real Ale Appreciation Society.


Nice one!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Solwriter said:


> Nice one!


I refused to be allocated to the WI.


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

baldilocks said:


> It is the old story of "Mighty oaks from little acorns grow" A few people on here 'talking', then each talking to others etc etc etc. It is like those e-mails that say send to ten of your friends within five minutes.. and so-on. In just a few hours the same message could reach the entire world population.


I take your point.
We need to go viral.


baldilocks said:


> Yeah, OK it wouldn't work because there are too many people motivated by self-interest rather that what is the best for all - the likes of Camoron and Clogg et al.


Tends to knock down your previous point.

I'm beginning to wonder if the main problem, particularly in the UK, is that the general population has taken onboard a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Solwriter said:


> self-fulfilling prophecy.


but it doesn't fill fuly enough, that's the problem if one only thinks of self - one needs a concerted effort and then we'll get some music to go with it.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Solwriter said:


> What I'm looking for are ways to encourage change at local level. Not simply by speaking at political meetings (attended mainly by the few), but within communities themselves.
> And I'm _really_ open to suggestions here.


That's what the 15M movement is all about, and despite what some say, it is still alive and happy. OH went to a talk last week at a group near here.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> That's what the 15M movement is all about, and despite what some say, it is still alive and happy. OH went to a talk last week at a group near here.


It's one strand of many and will play a major role in formulating some people's views.
The problem with movements like that is that they are good for debate and formulating ideas but contain too many divergent strands to be an effective force.
In 1989 there was a huge opposition movement in the Czech Republic very similar to 15M: you probably remember it, it was called 'Obcanske Forum'...Citizens Forum. It was composed of reform Socialists, Conservatives, Liberals, Greens, people of no fixed political stance. I went to many of their meetings and even spoke at some. It was a very exciting time. The movement got its act together to run for the Constituent Assembly elections as a united front. It swept the Board.
Then the fissures began to appear as of course they would. You can get Conservatives and Socialists to agree on the NEED for change but when it comes to the NATURE of the change they couldn't agree. It was sadly inevitable but my Czech friends couldn't see that, they were so caught up in the very real excitement of discussing new ideas.
So when elections to the new parliament took place, OF split on the left and centre into a dozen or more groups. Over twenty Parties contested that election.
The Right stuck together. Heavily influenced by Friedmannite ideas and in love with Bush and Thatcher they formed a right-wing Party, the ODS.
It has been in charge of the direction of Czech politics for most of the decades since 1990.
Therein lies the problem; the Left can talk itself into impotence over doctrinal points. The Right is interested in power and is prepared to compromise to get a grip on it..


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

Pesky Wesky said:


> That's what the 15M movement is all about, and despite what some say, it is still alive and happy. OH went to a talk last week at a group near here.


I was laid up after a serious injury all the while the 15M protests were going on and it was most frustrating, especially as there were protests in Granada.
So I must admit, I do need to look into local meetings again.

I agree with mrypg9. From my experience too, broad-based political movements do tend to fracture and allow the Right to make good political use of this.
But nothing ventured, nothing gained.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Solwriter said:


> I was laid up after a serious injury all the while the 15M protests were going on and it was most frustrating, especially as there were protests in Granada.
> So I must admit, I do need to look into local meetings again.
> 
> I agree with mrypg9. From my experience too, broad-based political movements do tend to fracture and allow the Right to make good political use of this.
> But nothing ventured, nothing gained.


I went to one, out of curiosity, really. But it was like a student union debate, badly organised. But I know they're not all like that.
The big problem is that life has become too complicated and technologically complex for power to be devolved to any great extent. The other fact -for that's what it is - is that any serious debate must focus on alternatives to the existing free market model of capitalism, not to capitalism itself.
Civic Forum was good as long as it wasn't in a position to take power. Debates about the kind of constitution the CR should have, the structures of democratic institutions....these debates were essential at that time. But as soon as a Constitution had been agreed and elections for a 'real' Parliament were announced, Civic Forum totally disintegrated. That was inevitable and desirable. We are fortunate in that we live in a pluralist society, not a socialist or fascist totalitarian state or an Islamic theocracy.
So a divergence of political opinion is healthy as it reflects society.
My view is that 15M, UK Uncut and all the other such groups do little harm....well, not until the anarchist fringe instigates violence, as usually happens. This, as we agreed, delights the Right and provides an excuse for repression.
The question is, can they influence events and outcomes in the world we live in now and the example of OF shows the answer is 'No'. 
PP won in May, in November and will next month although hopefully with reduced majorities.
But anything that gets people thinking and discussing is positive.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> The question is, can they influence events and outcomes in the world we live in now and the example of OF shows the answer is 'No'.


Mary whilst I agree with *almost* everything you say (why do we have no emoticon for "grovel, grovel" ) I'm not entirely sure that you are 100% correct on this one. I do think that some sensitive politicians (I believe there are still a few that haven't been thrown in jail or assassinated) do hear the undercurrents of public opinion and think "maybe..." and, if they are not blinded by political dogma and unrealistic ideologies, sometimes get things moving in the right direction and just occasionally a whole sea change occurs. 

For evidence m'lud, take the consequences of the actions of just a few of the coloured population in Little Rock and other places in the southern USA. Or the overthrow of the Communist regimes in eastern Europe...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> Mary whilst I agree with *almost* everything you say (why do we have no emoticon for "grovel, grovel" ) I'm not entirely sure that you are 100% correct on this one. I do think that some sensitive politicians (I believe there are still a few that haven't been thrown in jail or assassinated) do hear the undercurrents of public opinion and think "maybe..." and, if they are not blinded by political dogma and unrealistic ideologies, sometimes get things moving in the right direction and just occasionally a whole sea change occurs.
> 
> For evidence m'lud, take the consequences of the actions of just a few of the coloured population in Little Rock and other places in the southern USA. Or the overthrow of the Communist regimes in eastern Europe...


The difference is that in the old Soviet regimes and in the Deep South the sole focus was on one issue: the removal of socialism and the abolition of racism.
Everyone of a liberal mindset was able to unite on those issues.
The problem with movements that contain many disparate groupings each with its own view as to how society should be organised is......they contain many disparate groupings each with its own view as to how society should be organised...
Any political debate is per se a good thing. But I cannot take seriously the view that movements like that - the very fact it's called a 'movement' is interesting- will have any influence on what people will do at the ballot box. The people involved don't represent 1% of the population.
What does sadly have an effect is the violence that often accompanies mass demos. It gives Governments the excuse to clamp down on legitimate dissent. The majority of people who protest are peacefully exercising their right to do so but there is always the hard-left 'class war' anarchist minority who want a fight.
I've seen it happening so many times on marches I've taken part in. But that's no reason not to protest peacefully if you feel like it. I think the policfe should know by now who the troublemakers are -they seem to infiltrate these groups quite successfully (and often illegally).
I would anticipate either the declaration of martial law very soon in Greece or a military coup.
Why people see Greece as the 'cradle of democracy' I know not. Athenian 'democracy' was restricted to rich and powerful men. Women, the poor and slaves weren't included. 
Coups and martial law are as Greek as moussaka.
I'm freezing..It's colder in our house than outside...all that marble everywhere..I'm off to make some vegetable soup to warm me up...


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I'm freezing..It's colder in our house than outside...all that marble everywhere..I'm off to make some vegetable soup to warm me up...


Ah I get where you're heading with this now - you're pleading a charity case with your "It's colder'n charity in here".

As a slight contra: but the gang of 3 or was it 4 did make a small difference with the SDP - it did say to 'old labour' "Hey, perhaps your way is not the best way" and encouraged the birth of 'new labour' for better or worse.


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## brocher (Mar 21, 2011)

Solwriter said:


> I was laid up after a serious injury all the while the 15M protests were going on and it was most frustrating, especially as there were protests in Granada.
> So I must admit, I do need to look into local meetings again.
> 
> I agree with mrypg9. From my experience too, broad-based political movements do tend to fracture and allow the Right to make good political use of this.
> But nothing ventured, nothing gained.


Solwriter

We were in Granada, for the weekend, when the demonstration took place.

As we stood and watched, we were struck by the feeling that it was a very peaceful and well behaved protest - actually more of a carnival atmosphere!

Although our Spanish was too limited to understand all the banners, it was still nice to see that in Spain, whole families - from granny to grandchild - felt safe to take part, along with all the other different groups of people.

It was also very nice to see that the Spanish police were very low key, and presumably confident that it would be a completely peaceful protest, as I didn't see any of them walking alongside the protesters - only a few in a van bringing up the rear, although there were probably some at the front clearing the road through.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

brocher said:


> Solwriter
> 
> We were in Granada, for the weekend, when the demonstration took place.
> 
> ...


Our local 'meeting' was peaceful too. The mainly young people there were welcoming and friendly.
But there was much aimless discussion which seemed to be leading nowhere so I went off to my PSOE branch meeting where much of the same could be said....but at least we had drinks and tapas there.
But then I went to a pleno of our Ayuntamiento where about twenty 15M people were in attendance, standing at the rear of the hall. They began to shout and chant in a disorderly manner so the police chucked them out -quite gently.
I thought it was all rather silly. If I had been Mayor I would have asked one of them to come to the platform and speak for five minutes or so and then leave peacefully.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Our local 'meeting' was peaceful too. The mainly young people there were welcoming and friendly.
> But there was much aimless discussion which seemed to be leading nowhere so I went off to my PSOE branch meeting where much of the same could be said....but at least we had drinks and tapas there.
> But then I went to a pleno of our Ayuntamiento where about twenty 15M people were in attendance, standing at the rear of the hall. They began to shout and chant in a disorderly manner so the police chucked them out -quite gently.
> I thought it was all rather silly. If I had been Mayor I would have asked one of them to come to the platform and speak for five minutes or so and then leave peacefully.


Had to go to Granada this morning (it seems that part of it was on a public holiday) for a hospital visit and a peaceful demo was in progress when we came out. We didn't wait around to find out what it was about because the dogs were in the car and needed to go "walkies"!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Short article from The Economist about the labour reforms
Labour reform in Spain: Spanish practices | The Economist


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Short article from The Economist about the labour reforms
> Labour reform in Spain: Spanish practices | The Economist


Yes, I saw that.

I read somewhere, either the BBC or The Economist, that until the slump wages in Spain went up three fold in a relastively short time whilst productivity per employee fell.

There is imo nothing wrong with a 'top-down' negotiating process but it's effectiveness depends on the willingness of both sides to reach consensus in the national interest.

What will hamper any progress towards national solvency and a better outcome for Spain as a whole is an attitude of 'either/or'.

There was an immediate assumption from some quarters that these laws were a blow aimed at the heart of working people. I have never noticed that people get equipped with a set of horns, a forked tail and a pitchfork when they become employers...we certainly didn't.

The laws need reform and most Spanish people recognise that. They create an unfair divide between haves (with permanente) and have-nots (with temporada or no job at all).


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Short article from The Economist about the labour reforms
> Labour reform in Spain: Spanish practices | The Economist


Here's another article, which arrives at a different conclusion.



> So, we get to the relevant question. What does a reform of the labour market has to do with it? The answer is: not much, really. Since wages are outrageously low in Spain (the lowest in the UE-15) and unemployment is at a staggering 23%, labour costs and "rigidity" can hardly be the problem we need to fix. Not that the changes will have no effects. They will, but in the wrong way. There's little doubt that in the context of a downturn, more flexibility means more lay-offs, more short-term contracts and lower wages. This will have the immediate effect of increasing earnings for employers, but this will come back to haunt them as households will have less disposable income. The employer's "wish-list" may turn into an employer's last wish.
> 
> Why, then, is the Spanish government focusing on this now? I'm afraid it wants to be seen as "doing something" to tackle the crisis, and tinkering with a law is much easier and visible than starting to change Spain's bricks-and-mortar-addicted economic model. This would take years, if it is possible at all. The changes also supposed to "send the right message" to the markets and hence help the government to borrow at cheaper rates.
> 
> ...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Here's another article, which arrives at a different conclusion.



The Guardian is as biased as The Economist but in a different direction.Out of the two, I would see The Economist piece as of more relevance. The Guardian piece is a typical left-wing analysis which sees relations between labour and capital as inevitably mutually antagonistic. I doubt whether the author has direct experience of business. At least the pro-business Economist contributors know well that the interests of both sides of business -employers and workers -must be resolved in the interests of society as a whole and cannot end in a 'winner-takes-all' outcome.

He totally ignores the fact that in a downturn as severe as that we are experiencing demand will slump. Less revenue means that some, perhaps many,companies operating on the slimmest of profit margins face will redundancies...... or closure.
He totally neglects the importance of the small/medium-sized business sector of which he most likely knows little if anything as typically these flawed analyses concentrate on the favourite bogeyman... 'Big Business'.

He rightly says that bond yields are increasing....but fails to relate this to the effect this has on the real economy.

When we get rid of this false neo-liberal free market ideology which is dogma unrelated to how things should work efficiently in the real everyday world I hope we see the end of these equally doctrinaire leftwing 'analyses' which are equally divorced from how things actually operate in the real economy.

I think that part of the root of this attitude lies in the fact that leftwing activists, whether politicians or trades unionists, deal mainly with the giants, the large private and state companies. This is because in the UK and I suspect in Spain too trades union membership is concentrated overwhelmingly in large enterprises. When I sat on TUC Committies in the UK I was staggered at the ignorance of my fellow trades unionists where small/medium-sized businesses were concerned. I was a member of these Committees because of my membership of a large public-sector union but the fact that my partner ran a successful -and fair - SME enabled me to broaden discussion to cover this much greater sector of UK economic activity which was like a foreign country to most of the other unionists round the table. The same ignorance sadly applies to much leftwing economic analysis. This sector has been abandoned to the Right. It shouldn't be.

The almost 80% of the economy occupied by small and medium-sized businesses, often one or two people non-limited businesses, is unknown and unexplored territory for the Left. It is almost totally non-unionised and has therefore been neglected and represented by right-wing groups which in reality do not take into account their real interests.

The problem with the kind of analysis as in that Guardian piece is that it seeks to apply an ideology to real life. Real life is too fluid and messy for that to be a viable way to proceed.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

It will be interesting to look back in a year's time and see which analysis was the more accurate.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> It will be interesting to look back in a year's time and see which analysis was the more accurate.


Yes it will....but I think that little will have changed in a year's time except perhaps for the worse since as I wrote elsewhere the Budget did not include real growth/job producing measures.

But when you discuss economic issues, you have to see things as they really are. It's a fact that the majority of economic activity is carried on by PYMEs/SMES and their equivalent in most of the wealthier EU states.

Neither left nor right has a good record either of practice or forecasting. Both imo start from a view of how society ought to be/ideology and apply it to actually existing society. The only outcome can be: failure.

You don't need to look to the future to see that...it's happened. Socialist central planning and public ownership and neo-liberal free market deregulation, privatisation and globalisation are both busted flushes.

Instead of fighting the battles betwen capital and labour that become obsolete a generation or two ago, we need a new politics based on the recognition that only an economy where the market serves society and not dominates it can produce a fair, progressive and economically productive society.

This should come from the truly 'progressive' left...but it is stuck in the tired old cliches of the mutually distinct and therefore (it is assumed) inevitably antagonistic relationship between labour and capital.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> It will be interesting to look back in a year's time and see which analysis was the more accurate.


 Yes, I was surprised that The Economist view was so simplistic


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> The almost 80% of the economy occupied by small and medium-sized businesses, often one or two people non-limited businesses, is unknown and unexplored territory for the Left. It is almost totally non-unionised and has therefore been neglected and represented by right-wing groups which in reality do not take into account their real interests.


I regard small businesses as being in the same boat as waged workers. They are just as vulnerable to the policies of governments and multinationals alike, and have very little influence on those policies. So if you hear me complaining about the behaviour of "the bosses", don't assume I'm referring to these guys.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> I regard small businesses as being in the same boat as waged workers. They are just as vulnerable to the policies of governments and multinationals alike, and have very little influence on those policies. So if you hear me complaining about the behaviour of "the bosses", don't assume I'm referring to these guys.


When I attended TUC meetings I constantly reminded other delegates about the importance of this sector. Little notice was taken...I would say that every delegate at most meetings worked for a large institution often in the financial sector which is actually quite heavily unionised or in some public sector institution.

And this 80% is where most abuses of Equality Employment legislation take place.... often through ignorance rather than malevolence.


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## edmund (Sep 16, 2009)

*Renewable Energy Employment*

IMHO, Spain is not a leader in renewable energy. We have 100% solar and wind electricity: the panels came from Germany (where they are highly subsidised) and the windmill came from the UK. They were fitted (very badly) by a Spanish company and we received a 30% Spanish grant (thank you) but this is not exportable. Yes, there are Spanish wiindmill makers but China (the world's largest producer of solar panels) and India want to make their own, they don't want to import huge pieces of steel from Spain. Anyway, China is restricting the supply of rare earths needed to make the magnets that make the windmills function.

So where is the employment going to come from? Here, in Andalucía, the plastic greenhouses (invenaderos) are closing, even though the majority of workers are illegal immigrants on €30 a day, because in Morocco the wages are only €6 a day. Tourism is on the decline because Spain is so expensive now - I don't care what the official figures say but by my reckoning many prices have doubled over the past five years. Northern Spain has some competitive businesses but I wonder what can be done with Andalucía, Spain's biggest province. We grow almonds and we just leave them on the trees because the cost of harvesting them is more than the sale price!



mrypg9 said:


> *Those who criticise should suggest alternatives. Opposition without suggesting plausible alternative courses of action is an armchair luxury.*
> 
> 
> No-one has criticised yet....
> ...


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

edmund said:


> IMHO, Spain is not a leader in renewable energy. We have 100% solar and wind electricity: the panels came from Germany (where they are highly subsidised) and the windmill came from the UK. They were fitted (very badly) by a Spanish company and we received a 30% Spanish grant (thank you) but this is not exportable. Yes, there are Spanish wiindmill makers but China (the world's largest producer of solar panels) and India want to make their own, they don't want to import huge pieces of steel from Spain. Anyway, China is restricting the supply of rare earths needed to make the magnets that make the windmills function.
> 
> So where is the employment going to come from? Here, in Andalucía, the plastic greenhouses (invenaderos) are closing, even though the majority of workers are illegal immigrants on €30 a day, because in Morocco the wages are only €6 a day. Tourism is on the decline because Spain is so expensive now - I don't care what the official figures say but by my reckoning many prices have doubled over the past five years. Northern Spain has some competitive businesses but I wonder what can be done with Andalucía, Spain's biggest province. We grow almonds and we just leave them on the trees because the cost of harvesting them is more than the sale price!


Look on the bright side - eventually wages will be so low and workers`rights so minimal that those Asian companies will be moving their production plants to Andalucia ... and taking advantage of renewable energy sources to power them.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

edmund said:


> We grow almonds and we just leave them on the trees because the cost of harvesting them is more than the sale price!


You omitted olives - Jaén Province produces more olives than the rest of the world put together and much of the oil is exported to Italy where they adulterate it (legally) with about 4% of Italian oil then re-export it as "Italian" oil.

We also produce an awful lot of cherries.

Again because of the cost of harvesting, both oilves and cherries also rot on the trees.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Look on the bright side - eventually wages will be so low and workers`rights so minimal that those Asian companies will be moving their production plants to Andalucia ... and taking advantage of renewable energy sources to power them. [/QUOTE
> 
> I would imagine that if things are that bad unemployed people would be grateful for any jobs....
> 
> ...


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

edmund said:


> IMHO, Spain is not a leader in renewable energy. We have 100% solar and wind electricity: the panels came from Germany (where they are highly subsidised) and the windmill came from the UK. They were fitted (very badly) by a Spanish company and we received a 30% Spanish grant (thank you) but this is not exportable. Yes, there are Spanish wiindmill makers but China (the world's largest producer of solar panels) and India want to make their own, they don't want to import huge pieces of steel from Spain. Anyway, China is restricting the supply of rare earths needed to make the magnets that make the windmills function.
> 
> So where is the employment going to come from? Here, in Andalucía, the plastic greenhouses (invenaderos) are closing, even though the majority of workers are illegal immigrants on €30 a day, because in Morocco the wages are only €6 a day. Tourism is on the decline because Spain is so expensive now - I don't care what the official figures say but by my reckoning many prices have doubled over the past five years. Northern Spain has some competitive businesses but I wonder what can be done with Andalucía, Spain's biggest province. We grow almonds and we just leave them on the trees because the cost of harvesting them is more than the sale price!


 Well, I think, the solar energy industry is focused on solar "farms" ATM, not in individuals installing (which I have noticed is all the rage here in Weston s mare). Look at this state of the art solar farm in Sevilla









The technology is developed in conjunction with Germany I think...

The agreements the government have made with Morocco about fruit and veg imports appear to be shameful - a sell out to keep the king of Morocco happy it would appear, and a shot in the foot to Spain and its farmers, especially those in Andalucia.

As for tourism, I think some areas are not necessarily expanding, but not shrinking in the long term, and others are doing well, if not as well as they could be doing if there wasn't a crisis. The cheap and cheerful costas type of tourism will IMHO carrying on either with Spaniards who prefer home tourism, or used to go abroad and now can't afford to. I think there will also always be Brits who will always find a way to get away from the depressing UK and Germans who love spain and are better off than the Brits.
Other types of tourism are doing well however - rural tourism, spa breaks, wine tourism, Northern Spain... As it should be doing at these times, Spain is expanding its tourism offer .


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

I'm just wondering what % of Spanish workers are unionised.....

We sometimes talk of workers who are union members as if they are a majority of working people but it is not the case.
Neither are those workers in unions the lowest paid. In the UK the average union member is more likely to be an average or above paid worker in a white collar job.

In Spain as elsewhere 'workers' are not an homogenous bloc but cover a wide spectrum of occupation, pay and political views. So many workers might well support the labour law reforms as being in the interest of the country as a whole...which includes them,of course.

I've always seen my trades union as an interest group, one among many. I want it to be powerful, influential, efficient in its main purpose of securing the best possible terms and conditions for me and my fellow education workers.

I do not think it represents 'the workers' as a whole not even in education, I don't see my fellow unionists as a single homogenous group and I don't think my or any other union should use its muscle to force governments to change legislation that may not suit us but which is necessary and may well be supported by the wider public.

That doesn't mean we sit on our hands when an unwelcome proposal is put before us. It means we marshal our facts, prepare a persuasive argument and use them in a constructive dialogue. This we have done and achieve results - not always the outcome we would have preferred but an acceptable one.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I'm just wondering what % of Spanish workers are unionised.....


Less than 15%.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Less than 15%.





That is NOT good. The figure in the UK isn't much better and could be worse.
I joined a UNion the day I started work and still keep up full membership although it's unlikely I'll do any work in a school again - I have been working on the staff side on new legislation and such like and keeping up with casework.

It's a real problem getting into the PYMEs and SMEs. Of our twenty-five employees in the UK, only two were unionised....me and Sandra and both members of the Institute of Directors (That caused a minor kerfuffle when I proclaimed this fact at a TUC meeting once). But seriously, it helped me to see that usually although not always there were two sides to a problem situation which had to be resolved by an agreed and acceptable compromise wherever possible.

I'm off to Conference tomorrow so here's wishing you and evrryone an enjoyable Easter break...hopefully with better weather than it seems I'll be flying into


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Bad news...


*Spanish debt is taking more of a pummelling -- with its 10-year bond yields just breaking above the 5.7% mark (from below 5.5% before this morning's auction).

(That means the value of those bonds has fallen this morning, as investors perceive that Spanish debt is riskier).*


And not all bonds on offer were sold....

So.....expenditure on unemployment benefit up......money from which to pay down.

Time for tri-partite talks...unions, employers, governments. Any more strike action will be like a suicide note.


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