# Once the dust of Mexico



## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

In one of her books, Neill James, the travel writer who came to Ajijic in the 1940s to recover from an accident and died here 50 years later said, "Once the dust of Mexico settles on your heart, you can never go home again."´

It may be an old quote but still has a lot to say why I am here. Everytime I left Mexico in the last 11 years I didn´t feel at peace until I crossed the border back again. The noise, smells and general activities going on soothed me instantly.


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## lagoloo (Apr 12, 2011)

Some entity that studies things like "happiness factor" gave Mexico a pretty high score: much higher than some much more prosperous countries. (I don't think they counted expats in that one) but I think that speaks for itself. Good dust here.


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## Zorro2017 (Jan 9, 2017)

The sounds of Mexico are something that people NOB don't realize. In a city that I once lived in, the bread man slowly rode his bicycle through the neighborhood blowing a unique whistle. People would come out to the street to buy the fresh baked bread. The LP gas truck plays a jingle, the guys who deliver tortillas from a scooter have that police siren sound as they deliver tortillas. In Cozumel, the mailman used to blow a whistle when he stuffed letters into the mailbox from his bike.

Life is slower here and I like that.


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## 7711rogerrovic (Mar 21, 2017)

alas, can not be understood till one enters the mex zone !


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## izzenhood (Jun 8, 2013)

Zorro2017 said:


> The sounds of Mexico are something that people NOB don't realize. In a city that I once lived in, the bread man slowly rode his bicycle through the neighborhood blowing a unique whistle. People would come out to the street to buy the fresh baked bread. The LP gas truck plays a jingle, the guys who deliver tortillas from a scooter have that police siren sound as they deliver tortillas. In Cozumel, the mailman used to blow a whistle when he stuffed letters into the mailbox from his bike.
> 
> Life is slower here and I like that.


Agreed

I'm a light sleeper, so at home on the outskirts of a small city in Colorado, I run a white noise machine in my bedroom to drown out the rare noises at night. When in Guanajuato I sleep like a baby despite the church bells, fireworks, Callejoneadas, Mariachis, roosters, roof dogs, and gas and water salesmen. Sounds of Mexico.:horn:


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## Zorro2017 (Jan 9, 2017)

People in the states keep their windows closed and the AC running, the birds wake me up here.


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## Haskins (May 21, 2017)

Zorro2017 said:


> People in the states keep their windows closed and the AC running, the birds wake me up here.


My most memorable wake up ever was in Real De Catorce, in what used to be the old mint (now a bed and breakfast), thanks to the braying of a mule just outside my wide open window.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

I lived in the States for 30 years and never had closed windows or A/C , The States are a huge diverse place not everyone live the same way..In San Francisco we had the sirenes and the firecrakers during Chinese New Year as we lived right above Chinatown and in Sonoma we woke up to the birds and went to sleep hearing the coyotes play..


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## lagoloo (Apr 12, 2011)

Blanket statements are usually untrue. That's one of them.

Depends entirely where you lived in the States. On the coast, people left their windows open so they could hear the surf at night.


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## perropedorro (Mar 19, 2016)

lagoloo said:


> Blanket statements are usually untrue. That's one of them.
> 
> Depends entirely where you lived in the States. On the coast, people left their windows open so they could hear the surf at night.


Not being able to afford $5 million digs in Malibu, we never lived on the beach in L.A. But when the opportunity arose, we bought a big lot in Colima, bordering on federal land about 80 meters from the surf and built a small vacation house. After prices going up about 15X in twenty years, couldn't afford it now. Took a while to get used to the muffled roar of the ocean and the more crisp sound of an occasional big wave crashing-- one of Mother Nature's powerful symphonies. Now on a visit NOB, it took me a couple of nights to get a good night's sleep in its absence. Can't wait to get back.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

We used to live on the beach in Northern California many years ago and at first the ocean really bothered me because it never stopped.. then we moved up in the hills in a remote area and the silence drove me crazy.. it all depends on what you are used to..


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## ojosazules11 (Nov 3, 2013)

Haskins said:


> My most memorable wake up ever was in Real De Catorce, in what used to be the old mint (now a bed and breakfast), thanks to the braying of a mule just outside my wide open window.


When I'm first back at our Mexican home after being away, Rufina, the _burra_ next door, will wake me up braying for her breakfast early in the morning. However, after a few days it just gets incorporated into my dreamscape. My husband and neighbours like to say that Rufina "announces the hour" (marca la hora). I check her periodic braying against the clock, and have to admit she's always within 30 minutes of the nearest hour!


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## ojosazules11 (Nov 3, 2013)

AlanMexicali said:


> In one of her books, Neill James, the travel writer who came to Ajijic in the 1940s to recover from an accident and died here 50 years later said, "Once the dust of Mexico settles on your heart, you can never go home again."´
> 
> It may be an old quote but still has a lot to say why I am here. Everytime I left Mexico in the last 11 years I didn´t feel at peace until I crossed the border back again. The noise, smells and general activities going on soothed me instantly.


Wonderful quote, Alan. I was 15 yrs old when I first travelled to Mexico with a cousin whose wife is a Mexico City native. We stayed with her family (near the Chabacano metro stop). Back in the 1970's in D.F. I guess it might have been the smog instead of the dust that settled on me! Either way, the effect was the same. My cousin still likes to take the credit / blame for my life-long love of Mexico. 

I have a meaningful vocation, good friends, my own home, etc. in Toronto, which is a very livable, diverse and safe city. Yet it's getting harder and harder to come back after visits to our home in Mexico. People ask me what it is about Mexico that makes me so content when I'm there, and so longing to return when I'm not. It's hard to put onto words, but like you say, Alan, "the noise, smells and general activities going on soothe me instantly".


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

ojosazules11 said:


> Wonderful quote, Alan. I was 15 yrs old when I first travelled to Mexico with a cousin whose wife is a Mexico City native. We stayed with her family (near the Chabacano metro stop). Back in the 1970's in D.F. I guess it might have been the smog instead of the dust that settled on me! Either way, the effect was the same. My cousin still likes to take the credit / blame for my life-long love of Mexico.
> 
> I have a meaningful vocation, good friends, my own home, etc. in Toronto, which is a very livable, diverse and safe city. Yet it's getting harder and harder to come back after visits to our home in Mexico. People ask me what it is about Mexico that makes me so content when I'm there, and so longing to return when I'm not. It's hard to put onto words, but like you say, Alan, "the noise, smells and general activities going on soothe me instantly".


Thanks. I too wonder what is is that has me entranced when I have being coming to Mexico for 37 years living in San Diego married to my Ex who is from Mexicali where her whole family lived/lives. It was very dusty back then as most of the side streets were dirt especially after it rained and the vehicles tracked mud onto the main streets that were paved.

I think it has to do with not wanting to be constricted by rules that don´t allow people to express themselves or allow them to make money to live on when setting up a street side stand or in a pickup selling fruit and vegetables or pan dulce from the back of a car etc. The rules are not there sometimes, lately more are though, or if they are are flexible. 

I always saw myself enjoying the throngs of people busily walking, bussing it, chatting on corners, small kids in the steets unafraid etc. that I only see very few doing in the US. If it is the congestion and activites I should have been overloaded with it by now but I am not so it must be something greater than just what I see everywhere. It must be what I feel everywhere and the activites are just the outcome of those feelings Mexicans have and always had since the first time I crossed the border 37 years ago. I don´t exactly know for sure.


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## horseshoe846 (Feb 8, 2017)

Well some of the noise in our lives can perhaps be painted as 'romantic'. We live near a horse stable, we have cows grazing not too far away, there are also lambs/goats. 

I don't pay any attention to the packs of dogs barking in the night any longer. We live near a cemetery. They shoot off cohetes from the church (a couple miles away) to the cemetery. (The first couple months of the year the death rate was down around here but has picked up since - apparently). Then - the richer you are the more musicians you have at your grave site - which actually is nice for us. There must also be a custom to re-visit the grave the (early) morning after burial and sing/play music once again at dawn (sometimes intense wailing). 

We live outside the city - and the city is growing out towards us. They are filling in land and building. We have two very close Mexican friends who have moved away from our area because of the recent noise from the new cantinas. One woman (Mexican/French) was fortunate to sell her house in about two months time to another French couple. Another woman is fortunate that she is wealthy enough to have purchased another house while she waits to sell her house. We are fortunate in that we kind of live 'around the bend' from the bulk of the noise - but if the wind is blowing right we turn on the fans in the bedroom to drown the noise out.


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## Haskins (May 21, 2017)

horseshoe846 said:


> Well some of the noise in our lives can perhaps be painted as 'romantic'.


Well I don't know if it could be labeled romantic, but a couple of weeks ago while staying at a downtown CDMX Airbnb, I was awakened by a 3 AM mariachi rendition of Lady Gaga's "Bad Romance"! lol


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## horseshoe846 (Feb 8, 2017)

Haskins said:


> Well I don't know if it could be labeled romantic, but a couple of weeks ago while staying at a downtown CDMX Airbnb, I was awakened by a 3 AM mariachi rendition of Lady Gaga's "Bad Romance"! lol


So - Guanajuato - we are looking for a two night outing. I was thinking of the Holiday Inn (free parking/free wifi/free breakfast). Friends are insisting of the Camino Real (free nothing). 

Also - on a first trip to that part of the world is Quetero any better than Guanajuato any better than San Miguel ?


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## Zorro2017 (Jan 9, 2017)

Back to the sounds of Mexico, listen at 32 and 52 seconds.


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## circle110 (Jul 20, 2009)

horseshoe846 said:


> So - Guanajuato - we are looking for a two night outing. I was thinking of the Holiday Inn (free parking/free wifi/free breakfast). Friends are insisting of the Camino Real (free nothing).
> 
> Also - on a first trip to that part of the world is Quetero any better than Guanajuato any better than San Miguel ?


Holiday Inn is way outside of town and there is absolutely nothing interesting nearby. For a few pesos you can get breakfast at a zillion places in the centro.

When friends would come to visit us and there was no room at our house (which was actually only a few hundred meters from Holiday Inn), we would recommend El Meson de los Poetas and they were thrilled with it. The location is fantastic and the vibe is very Guanajuatense. Breakfast included. 

Is Queretaro better? Now that is a tough question. On pure charm Guanajuato wins hands down. As a place to live, ask me again in 18 months!


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## ojosazules11 (Nov 3, 2013)

Zorro2017 said:


> Back to the sounds of Mexico, listen at 32 and 52 seconds.
> 
> COMO HAGO EL CHAMOY ( tipo navolato ) facil y rapido by angy - YouTube


Heard the roosters! Also throughout the video you can hear other birds chirping/singing.

I know not everyone likes chamoy, but I actually do. Now I know why - I like all the ingredients (plums, flor de jamaica, apricots and chile) - and now I have a recipe! Thanks, Zorro.

I also noted Angy's accent is different than what I hear in Morelos, Puebla, Edo Mexico. More "cantadito" or "golpeadito" so I thought she might be from further north - apparently she's from Sinaloa, a part of Mexico I've never been to. Hopefully some day!


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## ojosazules11 (Nov 3, 2013)

AlanMexicali said:


> Thanks. I too wonder what is is that has me entranced when I have being coming to Mexico for 37 years living in San Diego married to my Ex who is from Mexicali where her whole family lived/lives. It was very dusty back then as most of the side streets were dirt especially after it rained and the vehicles tracked mud onto the main streets that were paved.
> 
> I think it has to do with not wanting to be constricted by rules that don´t allow people to express themselves or allow them to make money to live on when setting up a street side stand or in a pickup selling fruit and vegetables or pan dulce from the back of a car etc. The rules are not there sometimes, lately more are though, or if they are are flexible.
> 
> I always saw myself enjoying the throngs of people busily walking, bussing it, chatting on corners, small kids in the steets unafraid etc. that I only see very few doing in the US. If it is the congestion and activites I should have been overloaded with it by now but I am not so it must be something greater than just what I see everywhere. It must be what I feel everywhere and the activites are just the outcome of those feelings Mexicans have and always had since the first time I crossed the border 37 years ago. I don´t exactly know for sure.


Maybe when people ask, I can just stick with, "It's the dust." Leave 'em wondering...


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## Haskins (May 21, 2017)

horseshoe846 said:


> So - Guanajuato - we are looking for a two night outing. I was thinking of the Holiday Inn (free parking/free wifi/free breakfast). Friends are insisting of the Camino Real (free nothing).
> 
> Also - on a first trip to that part of the world is Quetero any better than Guanajuato any better than San Miguel ?


Can you stay longer than two nights? That way you could visit all three towns. In two weeks my wife, son, and I will be visiting the area. We'll be staying in San Miguel because it's centralized and we'll take trips out to Guanajuato which is close by. Since we'll be flying out of Queretaro we'll stay the last night there so we can visit the town. We have seven days to see it all for the first time. Don't think it will be enough time, which means we'll have to return, darn it!


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## Haskins (May 21, 2017)

Quick note. My location states that I'm in Guanajuato. Actually I am considering moving there within the next two years. I'm still living in McAllen, Texas. I'm visiting the area for the first time in two weeks. As of right now, my favorite location to move to is Coyoacan. Lets see what El Bajio brings....


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## izzenhood (Jun 8, 2013)

horseshoe846 said:


> So - Guanajuato - we are looking for a two night outing. I was thinking of the Holiday Inn (free parking/free wifi/free breakfast). Friends are insisting of the Camino Real (free nothing).
> 
> Also - on a first trip to that part of the world is Quetero any better than Guanajuato any better than San Miguel ?


Ditto what Circle110 said. I too have heard that La Meson de Poetas is a nice place, and the location is better since you will be so close to the historical district. However, it sounds like you may have rented a car. I don't know if Poetas has parking and you might have a hard time finding your way there in a car. Guanajuato would be my first choice of the three cities, but I have never been to Queratero so all I know is what I've read on the forums.

If you do end up at the Holiday Inn or Camino Real, park your car and leave it there, and taxi to and from the historical district in Guanajuato. Be warned, Guanajuato is steep and hilly so it's best to be in reasonable shape.

Here's a youtube on Guanajuato.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Haskins said:


> Quick note. My location states that I'm in Guanajuato. Actually I am considering moving there within the next two years. I'm still living in McAllen, Texas. I'm visiting the area for the first time in two weeks. As of right now, my favorite location to move to is Coyoacan. Lets see what El Bajio brings....


A note of caution about Coyoacán: the housing costs in the nicer parts of this area of Mexico City are going to be high.


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## circle110 (Jul 20, 2009)

El Meson de Los Poetas does have parking but it is off-site a few blocks.

Horseshoe846, you should make your trip longer and visit all 3. Each has its own charm and almost everyone I know puts them in a different order of liking. Here's mine:
1. Guanajuato
2. Queretaro 
3. San Miguel (I am writing this sitting in San Miguel in an airbnb)

That list is for vacationing/visiting. If it is for living in, I'd swap #1 and #2.

I know we are sort of hijacking this thread. This hijack is probably more of what the person who started the current Guanajuato thread was hoping for but it turned into a radioactive groundwater thread.


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## horseshoe846 (Feb 8, 2017)

Haskins said:


> Quick note. My location states that I'm in Guanajuato. Actually I am considering moving there within the next two years. I'm still living in McAllen, Texas. I'm visiting the area for the first time in two weeks. As of right now, my favorite location to move to is Coyoacan. Lets see what El Bajio brings....


We have similar tastes - my favorite residential area in Mexico City is Jardines del Pedregal ($$$).


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## horseshoe846 (Feb 8, 2017)

izzenhood said:


> Ditto what Circle110 said. I too have heard that La Meson de Poetas is a nice place, and the location is better since you will be so close to the historical district. However, it sounds like you may have rented a car. I don't know if Poetas has parking and you might have a hard time finding your way there in a car. Guanajuato would be my first choice of the three cities, but I have never been to Queratero so all I know is what I've read on the forums.
> 
> If you do end up at the Holiday Inn or Camino Real, park your car and leave it there, and taxi to and from the historical district in Guanajuato. Be warned, Guanajuato is steep and hilly so it's best to be in reasonable shape.


Thank you all for your advice. I booked the Camino Real for 2 nights in Guanajuato. It just looks like the most 'us'. All along it was my intention to either take taxis or walk (which we are pretty good at).

I'm going into this trip expecting to find a 'larger' Taxco - but - we have an almost new 18 month old car with only 2500 kms - so it is time we have it earn its keep.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

horseshoe846 said:


> We have similar tastes - my favorite residential area in Mexico City is Jardines del Pedregal ($$$).


Good god, you'd want to live in such an exclusive part of Mexico City, full of wealthy people who wouldn't give you the time of day (not to mention "Buenos días") and their servants ?


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## circle110 (Jul 20, 2009)

Isla Verde said:


> Good god, you'd want to live in such an exclusive part of Mexico City, full of wealthy people who wouldn't give you the time of day (not to mention "Buenos días")and their servants ?


I agree. To get to many places in Mexico City from my wife's family's house we have to pass through Jardines de Pedregal and it is a pretty sterile feeling area. It just has no feeling of neighborhood whatsoever.


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## horseshoe846 (Feb 8, 2017)

Isla Verde said:


> Good god, you'd want to live in such an exclusive part of Mexico City, full of wealthy people who wouldn't give you the time of day (not to mention "Buenos días")and their servants ?


Well my second choice would probably be Polanco. You probably don't approve of that either ? There are good and bad people everywhere. We are middle class people - but our best Mexican friends are a lot wealthier than us.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

circle110 said:


> I agree. To get to many places in Mexico City from my wife's family's house we have to pass through Jardines de Pedregal and it is a pretty sterile feeling area. It just has no feeling of neighborhood whatsoever.


You never see anyone out and about, except for the servants getting off the bus and walking to their place of work.


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## horseshoe846 (Feb 8, 2017)

Isla Verde said:


> You never see anyone out and about, except for the servants getting off the bus and walking to their place of work.


I think the same could be said for many places in Mexico (perhaps many places in the world) where people live in houses rather than apartments/condos - where there are no shops along the streets. They are residential areas. People drive to get where they need to.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

I think it is the same in many cities...try to live in the 16th in Paris.. beautiful apartments and public areas but the streets are deadl, the less affluent areas are more lively , have much more people on the street and are way more fun in my opinion.


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## horseshoe846 (Feb 8, 2017)

citlali said:


> I think it is the same in many cities...try to live in the 16th in Paris.. beautiful apartments and public areas but the streets are deadl, the less affluent areas are more lively , have much more people on the street and are way more fun in my opinion.


Fun is a relative thing. Whatever floats your boat.


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## Haskins (May 21, 2017)

Isla Verde said:


> A note of caution about Coyoacán: the housing costs in the nicer parts of this area of Mexico City are going to be high.


Really? I only spent a little while there, but it felt pretty much middle class and there were lots of people hanging out in the plazas and the mercado. But then again it was a Sunday. I figured that a long term rental apartment would be not much different than a place in San Miguel. (Anywhere from $600-$1400 for a two bedroom apartment)


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Haskins said:


> Really? I only spent a little while there, but it felt pretty much middle class and there were lots of people hanging out in the plazas and the mercado. But then again it was a Sunday. I figured that a long term rental apartment would be not much different than a place in San Miguel. (Anywhere from $600-$1400 for a two bedroom apartment)


It's not an area where the very wealthy live, but it is popular with the upper-middle class. To me $600 to $1400 is a lot of money to pay for a two-bedroom apartment. Obvously, we have different ideas about what expensive means!


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## Haskins (May 21, 2017)

Isla Verde said:


> It's not an area where the very wealthy live, but it is popular with the upper-middle class. To me $600 to $1400 is a lot of money to pay for a two-bedroom apartment. Obvously, we have different ideas about what expensive means!


It's me. I have so much to learn about Mexico. What I think might be a reasonable price might not be reasonable at all. That is why I'm here.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Haskins said:


> It's me. I have so much to learn about Mexico. What I think might be a reasonable price might not be reasonable at all. That is why I'm here.


Love your attitude! What is reasonable has a lot to do with how much money you have to spend. Anyway, keep your questions coming, and we'll do our best to answer them.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Haskins said:


> It's me. I have so much to learn about Mexico. What I think might be a reasonable price might not be reasonable at all. That is why I'm here.


Obviously, prices depend a lot on what you want and where it is located. I have friends who rented a 3 bedroom house for 4200 pesos and another who rented a one bedroom apartment for 7000 pesos. Both were fairly priced. The apartment was new and in a popular neighborhood.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

horseshoe846 said:


> Well my second choice would probably be Polanco. You probably don't approve of that either ? There are good and bad people everywhere. We are middle class people - but our best Mexican friends are a lot wealthier than us.


It's not a matter of approving where other people might want to live. It's a matter of where either of us would be happy living, and the kind of people we want to hang out with. I don't think that wealthy Mexicans are necessarily good or bad people - I just have nothing in common with them, and I doubt they'd be interested in welcoming me into their circle of friends. If they have welcomed you, that's just great.


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## horseshoe846 (Feb 8, 2017)

Isla Verde said:


> It's not a matter of approving where other people might want to live. It's a matter of where either of us would be happy living, and the kind of people we want to hang out with. I don't think that wealthy Mexicans are necessarily good or bad people - I just have nothing in common with them, and I doubt they'd be interested in welcoming me into their circle of friends. If they have welcomed you, that's just great.


In 72 years I would have thought that you might have learned that people are - fundamentally people - regardless of their wealth. 

Yesterday you wrote : "Good god, you'd want to live in such an exclusive part of Mexico City, full of wealthy people who wouldn't give you the time of day (not to mention "Buenos días") and their servants ?"

In my 63 years I have always taken 'friendship' very seriously. To be honest I can count the true friends I have had in my life on my fingers. Some of those friends just happened to have been very wealthy. They were perhaps the most genuine people I have known - probably helped them get to a certain place in life. 

Don't judge people by their wealth alone. You might have more in common with a 'wealthy' person than you think.


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## ojosazules11 (Nov 3, 2013)

horseshoe846 said:


> In 72 years I would have thought that you might have learned that people are - fundamentally people - regardless of their wealth.
> 
> Yesterday you wrote : "Good god, you'd want to live in such an exclusive part of Mexico City, full of wealthy people who wouldn't give you the time of day (not to mention "Buenos días") and their servants ?"
> 
> ...


Over the years I have observed that it is not a person's wealth or social status that determines if they are kind, generous, friendly and genuine, but rather how much that wealth and social status matter to them, especially if they think that social status exempts them from treating everyone with respect. There are those for whom wealth and social status of a person will determine how they treat that person. I have experienced this first hand with people from many different parts of the world. Before they realize I'm a doctor, it's as if I'm invisible. Once they know I have a profession which for some confers a certain "status", it's like I'm their best friend. (I personally don't see my M.D. as a status symbol.)

Many Latin American friends have alluded to the pretentiousness, intolerance and airs of superiority of certain types of people in the middle class/upper middle class who *want* to be upper class and therefore act in a stereotypical way towards those they deem inferior to them, class-wise. I have too often seen this attitude on display in the marketplace in Tepoztlan with weekend tourists in how they speak to local Tepoztecas/os working in the market. However, there are many others who appear wealthy and are respectful and considerate in their manner. 

I think you will find both decent people and scoundrels in all social classes, which is why wealth and social class of a person really matters nothing to me. Their values and how they treat those around them are what matters. 

However, I agree with those of the opinion that life in a less wealthy _barrio_ is likely to be more fun, lively and interesting!!


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

ojosazules11 said:


> Over the years I have observed that it is not a person's wealth or social status that determines if they are kind, generous, friendly and genuine, but rather how much that wealth and social status matter to them, especially if they think that social status exempts them from treating everyone with respect. There are those for whom wealth and social status of a person will determine how they treat that person. I have experienced this first hand with people from many different parts of the world. Before they realize I'm a doctor, it's as if I'm invisible. Once they know I have a profession which for some confers a certain "status", it's like I'm their best friend. (I personally don't see my M.D. as a status symbol.)
> 
> Many Latin American friends have alluded to the pretentiousness, intolerance and airs of superiority of certain types of people in the middle class/upper middle class who *want* to be upper class and therefore act in a stereotypical way towards those they deem inferior to them, class-wise. I have too often seen this attitude on display in the marketplace in Tepoztlan with weekend tourists in how they speak to local Tepoztecas/os working in the market. However, there are many others who appear wealthy and are respectful and considerate in their manner.
> 
> ...


I find it the way you describe also. The uppermiddle class seems to only make friends with other uppermiddle class associates wherever I have lived. It appears they want to do this because of what you also noticed. San Diego is not any different in this aspect of socioeconomic división usually. Not uppermiddle class family members their friends and neighbors might be the exception in a large social gathering [a salón event] but I usually see them at their own tables. It is very hard not to notice this is the way it is. If you don´t attend may social events or parties I guess you might not know this though. I have been to about a hundred or more over the years.


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## horseshoe846 (Feb 8, 2017)

ojosazules11 said:


> Over the years I have observed that it is not a person's wealth or social status that determines if they are kind, generous, friendly and genuine, but rather how much that wealth and social status matter to them, especially if they think that social status exempts them from treating everyone with respect. There are those for whom wealth and social status of a person will determine how they treat that person. I have experienced this first hand with people from many different parts of the world. Before they realize I'm a doctor, it's as if I'm invisible. Once they know I have a profession which for some confers a certain "status", it's like I'm their best friend. (I personally don't see my M.D. as a status symbol.)
> 
> Many Latin American friends have alluded to the pretentiousness, intolerance and airs of superiority of certain types of people in the middle class/upper middle class who *want* to be upper class and therefore act in a stereotypical way towards those they deem inferior to them, class-wise. I have too often seen this attitude on display in the marketplace in Tepoztlan with weekend tourists in how they speak to local Tepoztecas/os working in the market. However, there are many others who appear wealthy and are respectful and considerate in their manner.
> 
> ...


I think a lot of pretentiousness can be found in situations where (let's say) a woman marries up - anywhere. I've lived through some of that.

Unfortunately - I have known too many surgeons over the years suffering from 'god-complex' - that I realize all too well that doctors are people too. 

If you were to notice me at the market in Tepoztlan you might think I am one of the poorest people on earth. I'm ok with that.

I like our view - unfortunately you can't find that in many less wealthy barrios - and I believe that is true for you as well.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

I worked for 30 years with extremely wealthy people from Bordeaux, the Bronfman´s and my experience is that yes people are people and there are bad and good people everywhere but extremely wealthy people are very protected by their entourage and can be extremely capricious and difficult to work with or for.. the longer you know them and the least likeable they become.. 
They are very powerful , always get their ways and expect to get their ways.. They are also very class conscious.. and the old nobility does not mix if they can help it with the new one, or the wealthy who do not have title.. there are exceptions but they are exceptions and although they are very gracious to outsiders they stick together and really do not mix with outsiders...
These people usually have several residences , many of the apartments or fancy houses are inhabited by servants when the owners are somewhere else which does not help the livelyness of the neighborhood..


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## perropedorro (Mar 19, 2016)

Keep in mind that the scale of income/wealth in Mexico is different than NOB-- except for the tiny fraction of the top 1%, the goodly number of billionaires that Mexico is home to, who are on par with their counterparts anywhere in the world. At the other end, I never cease to be astonished by Mexicans who somehow make do on minimum wage, 80 pesos/day, like some in-laws whose only vacation opportunity is to visit us on the beach in Colima, after having scrimped and saved for bus fare. In between are several family members of the professional class, with advanced degrees, which affords them employment as upper-level bureaucrats at the U or lower exec positions in the private sector. They make about as much as I get from a minimum NOB pension that would put us a half-notch above homeless in SoCal (by virtue of having paid for the house). Keep in mind that expats, although there are great differences in wealth/income between us, usually find ourselves in the top 10% in Mexico. My wife and I are just about the humblest members of a growing number of NorAm retirees in our beach community, at least if measured by the dimensions of our house and the vehicles we drive, even though this isn't anything like Vallarta or Cancún where ostentatious expats are far more common. Still, we don't have any limitations on touring Guanajuato to enjoy colonial cities, flying off to see a soccer game in the Azteca, or attending an indigenous festival in Oaxaca-- although 5-star hotels aren't in the budget. Most Mexicans simply can't afford to do those things, especially on a whim. We are privileged, not just by being retired in such a beautiful and culturally rich country, but economically as well. Enjoy your good fortune but don't flaunt it.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

"I never cease to be astonished by Mexicans who somehow make do on minimum wage, 80 pesos/day, ..."

I have never meet anyone who confessed to making minumum wage, now $82.04 pesos per day. I have meet some who tell me they make $175, $200, $250, $300 pesos per day and some employers who agree with these daily wages. I feel nobody but possibly ranch hands, cane cutters, tomate etc. pickers, etc.and full time live in maids and hotel housekeepers who get tips might get that wage rate for a 40 hour work week [ 8 hours per day mínimum wage law] and an adjusted [more money] weekly wage if they work 55 or more hours per week example non live in maids, security guards etc..


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

AlanMexicali said:


> "I never cease to be astonished by Mexicans who somehow make do on minimum wage, 80 pesos/day, ..."
> 
> I have never meet anyone who confessed to making minumum wage, now $82.04 pesos per day. I have meet some who tell me they make $175, $200, $250, $300 pesos per day and some employers who agree with these daily wages. I feel nobody but possibly ranch hands, cane cutters, tomate etc. pickers, etc.and full time live in maids and hotel housekeepers who get tips might get that wage rate for a 40 hour work week [ 8 hours per day mínimum wage law] and an adjusted [more money] weekly wage if they work 55 or more hours per week example non live in maids, security guards etc..


Correction: Mínimum CDMX daily salary is $80.04 not $82.04 for 8 hours of work. If they work 10 hours it increases porpotionally. Many workers in low paying jobs work 8 to 9 or 10 hours per day and 1/2 a day Saturday. Some all day Saturday. I noticed years ago traditionally smaller bussinesses used to open a little later on Saturdays and close at 2PM, I have noticed towns and small cities still do this but larger cities they stay open all day Saturday except bussinesses like Dentists, Doctors offices, small construction suppy places, small ceramic tile stores, small medical laboratories, small used car lots, etc.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Indigenous here in Chiapas work for 100 pesos a day when they hire other indigenous so I have never met anyone making the minimum wage on a job however the women who work at home and make artesania are getting very little money. The weavers , and potters who do not have the best make very little, it is hard to really know how much since many of them do not keep tract of their hours but I would say some of them make less than a 100 pesos a day if they really check the time it takes them to make a piece od wor.. However many just work a little in between other tasks so it is hard to say how much they make a day.


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## WintheWin (Jul 15, 2015)

Here in Mexicali, a large portion of the population do factory work in the maquiladoras. The pay van vary greatly, some factories, like those in textiles/sewing seem to pay very little, about minimum wage. 

The average salary for a 9-10 hour factory gig seems to be about 200 pesos, many offer a Saturday of overtime, which is another 200 pesos for a half day of work.

Where people seem to "make their money" is in "utilidades." 

Sadly, a lot of companies cheat the system, and they get under some economic stimulus plan, so that they don't have to pay utilidades. This is done, "To help the factory be profitable." BS.

A lot of jobs also offer "vales de despensa" which are like food stamps, cards that have money that can be used at the grocery store.

Even then, average income seems to be about 1000-1200 for working class families, often the entire family will work at the same factory, and pool their money to pay for their livelihood.

My girlfriend, who comes from such a background, explained to me a cost breakdown of how they survive. I don't see how that offers much stability, as an illness or a few days of not working often force these people to take out small, but high interest loans to cover their basic needs.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

so the reality is that people working for 200 pesos a day in a maquiladora really are poorer than indigenous in Chiapas working for 100 pesos a day: if they live in their village they also cultivate a lot of their food, have a roof over their heads and have a free clinic in the village, many time they also get some food from the people who employ them so all in all they do not have to spend much money to survive.. it is hard and they get lured by higher wages but unfortunately there is no good spot for the poorest.


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## ojosazules11 (Nov 3, 2013)

I just read this article in the New York Times and thought of this thread with the discussion of class divisions. It describes how the upper middle "educated" class in the U.S. not only ensure their own offspring will remain a part of that class, but also put into place factors which ensure interlopers from lower classes will be effectively excluded. Of course this exclusion is generally invisible and for the most part subconscious and unrecognized, which can make it all the more insidious. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/11/opinion/how-we-are-ruining-america.html?action=click&contentCollection=opinion&module=NextInCollection&region=Footer&pgtype=article&version=column&rref=collection%2Fcolumn%2Fdavid-brooks


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## perropedorro (Mar 19, 2016)

citlali said:


> so the reality is that people working for 200 pesos a day in a maquiladora really are poorer than indigenous in Chiapas working for 100 pesos a day: if they live in their village they also cultivate a lot of their food, have a roof over their heads and have a free clinic in the village, many time they also get some food from the people who employ them so all in all they do not have to spend much money to survive.. it is hard and they get lured by higher wages but unfortunately there is no good spot for the poorest.


Good point. Not just the maquiladoras but 1000 pesos per week is the going rate for cashier at many stores, like OXXO. And like anywhere else in the world, people living in a rural environment usually grow at least some of their food which isn't an option for city dwellers. The point of my post is that expat retirees tend to be in the upper end of the Mexican socio-economic system. Agreed that 80 pesos a day might be unusual except for maids or other service employees who may _or may not_ receive adequate tippage, but we seem to have a consensus that 1000 pesos a week is common and somehow people make do. Personally, I don't know any NOB retiree living on so little-- even for just one person, let alone a family.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

perropedorro said:


> Good point. Not just the maquiladoras but 1000 pesos per week is the going rate for cashier at many stores, like OXXO. And like anywhere else in the world, people living in a rural environment usually grow at least some of their food which isn't an option for city dwellers. The point of my post is that expat retirees tend to be in the upper end of the Mexican socio-economic system. Agreed that 80 pesos a day might be unusual except for maids or other service employees who may _or may not_ receive adequate tippage, but we seem to have a consensus that 1000 pesos a week is common and somehow people make do. Personally, I don't know any NOB retiree living on so little-- even for just one person, let alone a family.


Mexicans who make $1000 a week manage by living with their families, pooling their resources to survive.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

The indigenous I know all have children single and married and all the money from the sons is given to the mother who then buys what the family needs, saves to build houses etc.. once there is enough money to build a separate house for a son and his famly, he moves out stops pooling his money and the others keep pooling the money until they get a house. The mother usually lives with a son or by herself .. some move in with their daughters but in the communities I know the daughters are usually part of the husband´´s fanily, also they do not inherit and so the mother ends up living with one of the sons..if the daughter-in. law agrees.. which does not always happen, this is why in the Istmus the role of the muxe ( the homosexual son) is to take care of his mother until she dies and it is why the women wish for a homosexual son.. no daughter in law to have to deal with..


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

citlali said:


> The indigenous I know all have children single and married and all the money from the sons is given to the mother who then buys what the family needs, saves to build houses etc.. once there is enough money to build a separate house for a son and his famly, he moves out stops pooling his money and the others keep pooling the money until they get a house. The mother usually lives with a son or by herself .. some move in with their daughters but in the communities I know the daughters are usually part of the husband´´s fanily, also they do not inherit and so the mother ends up living with one of the sons..if the daughter-in. law agrees.. which does not always happen, this is why in the Istmus the role of the muxe ( the homosexual son) is to take care of his mother until she dies and it is why the women wish for a homosexual son.. no daughter in law to have to deal with..


When I first moved to Mexico, Queretaro actually, I lived with a family for three months. The man of the family stayed home and kept house, cooking and cleaning for the family. His wife worked full time, their two kids were in college. And the wife's mother and grandmother lived there as well. There were a wonderful family and I still see them when I am in Qro. The grandmother died shortly after I left, and now one of the sons has married and moved out, so the family household is smaller now than when I lived with them.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

citlali said:


> The indigenous I know all have children single and married and all the money from the sons is given to the mother who then buys what the family needs, saves to build houses etc.. once there is enough money to build a separate house for a son and his famly, he moves out stops pooling his money and the others keep pooling the money until they get a house. The mother usually lives with a son or by herself .. some move in with their daughters but in the communities I know the daughters are usually part of the husband´´s fanily, also they do not inherit and so the mother ends up living with one of the sons..if the daughter-in. law agrees.. which does not always happen, this is why in the Istmus the role of the muxe ( the homosexual son) is to take care of his mother until she dies and it is why the women wish for a homosexual son.. no daughter in law to have to deal with..


Thanks for this interesting information, citlali. I wonder if the acceptance of homosexual men in this part of Mexico stems at least partly from the need for a member of the family to take care of "mami" in her declining years.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

yes that happens more in mestizo families where the women have a easier time find work in housekeeping and cleaning than men who often cannot find work..I know several families in Ajijic who are in the same situation.. it all depends on the job market or lack of..
In the indigenous Chiapas often the men will get the money for the harvest so about once a year and the women for the sales throughout the year of their work.. Of course that happens in villages where people have artisanal skills, when they do not life is really rough.


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