# non-resident taxes & IBI



## rewdan (Feb 23, 2010)

can anyone tell me if it's still possible to DIY the forms for IbI whilst non res. My 'fiscal representative' in spain is charging myself and my brother nearly 600 euros for telling us how much tax we owe each year. This seems very high but we thought it was a legal requirement as non resident joint property owners.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

rewdan said:


> can anyone tell me if it's still possible to DIY the forms for IbI whilst non res. My 'fiscal representative' in spain is charging myself and my brother nearly 600 euros for telling us how much tax we owe each year. This seems very high but we thought it was a legal requirement as non resident joint property owners.


600€ a year just to tell you what you owe 

Can you not just set up a standing order for your IBI ?


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## rewdan (Feb 23, 2010)

The town hall nick the money from my account anyway! I guess my question should be ,do I still require a fiscal rep in Spain as a non resident property owner'?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

rewdan said:


> The town hall nick the money from my account anyway! I guess my question should be ,do I still require a fiscal rep in Spain as a non resident property owner'?


I'm moving this back to 'Spain' since you're more likely to get a reply there, tbh, since it's about a Spanish tax issue


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

No - if you've got a Spanish bank account you can set up a direct debit for all your payments to the Ayuntamiento. No third party needed!

You can also pay your non-resident tax online using the Modelo 210 form.

http://www.agenciatributaria.es/AEA...laraciones/Modelos_200_al_299/210/mod210e.pdf


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Is the OP confusing two separate issues, the 210 non resident tax return and his IBI bills?

A friend of ours uses this company to complete her non resident tax returns, I believe they charge 25 pounds per property (plus you have to pay the amount of tax owed, of course):-
Spanish Tax Forms Ltd: Spanish Tax made easy!: Home

She finds their service very good.

As has already been pointed out, he can arrange to pay his IBI bills by direct debit. If you have this year's bill, there should be a mandate form (probably on the back of the bill) which you can complete and next time you are in Spain take it into your Ayuntamiento or the nearest Patronato de Recaudacion offfice. They will set up the direct debit and give you a copy of the authorisation to pass on to your bank.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Lynn R said:


> Is the OP confusing two separate issues, the 210 non resident tax return and his IBI bills?


I was assuming by the thread title he meant both of these. The IBI etc are paid to the Ayuntamiento and the 210 non-resident tax to the Agencia Tributaria. €600 to "handle" the payments sounds like someone's taking the p***!!


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## rewdan (Feb 23, 2010)

thanks, this is crazy! in typical style I leave for the Uk in 3 days after 3 months here not knowing about any of this, bet I don't get it done. I'm going to sack the current reps and go with Lynn R's link, see what happens! Thanks again


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## rewdan (Feb 23, 2010)

just to be clear here, do I need to pay-

Basura - current demand 243 euro
Rustica (Ithink its IBI land tax)- current demand 612 euro
Fees to fiscal rep for 2 people (joint owners) - current demand 578 euro

those are the bills I have in front of me and will be taken from my bank at the end of september I am told by my fiscal (although the town hall have have already taken the Basura dosh at the begining of september).

Does that sound right?


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## rewdan (Feb 23, 2010)

Just a thought but I am still deeply confused, do you think the fees from my fiscal rep may include non residents tax for my brother and myself (joint owners of the same property)


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

rewdan said:


> Just a thought but I am still deeply confused, do you think the fees from my fiscal rep may include non residents tax for my brother and myself (joint owners of the same property)


I suspect that is the case, that the €578 includes not only their fee for preparing the return but also the amount of non-resident tax which is due, which they will pay on your behalf.

You can see an explanation of the non resident tax and how it's calculated here:-

Property taxes for non-residents - Spanish Property Insight

The IBI (equivalent of Council Tax) is a separate charge which has to be paid by every property owner in Spain, whether they are resident or not.

In some areas, like yours, there is an additional separate charge for rubbish collection (basura) as well, although where I live we don't have that and it's included in the IBI charge.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

rewdan said:


> just to be clear here, do I need to pay-
> 
> Basura - current demand 243 euro
> Rustica (Ithink its IBI land tax)- current demand 612 euro
> ...



I think you're being robbed.

I know different areas are different but we pay about *80€* for basura
Rustica for us with 7000m2 is just *18€* - many people have nothing to pay for this
IBI itself is a separate tax and varies enormously - I think what you're calling Rustica might actually be IBI
Fees for submitting our tax return is just *40€ *as a joint return

I say sack them and don't pay them a penny more.


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## rewdan (Feb 23, 2010)

Just to be clear, do you think that no matter what, none of these costs are due until 31/12. 
I ask because I am leaving Spain on Wednesday but will return early November and will have much more time to process the info and research in between now and then. I would like to tell them tomorrow not do anything, leave my bank account alone etc until I am fully aware of my position, however I don't want to incur late payment costs so I do want to be clear on it.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

rewdan said:


> Just to be clear, do you think that no matter what, none of these costs are due until 31/12.
> I ask because I am leaving Spain on Wednesday but will return early November and will have much more time to process the info and research in between now and then. I would like to tell them tomorrow not do anything, leave my bank account alone etc until I am fully aware of my position, however I don't want to incur late payment costs so I do want to be clear on it.


What date did you buy the house?


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

rewdan said:


> Just to be clear, do you think that no matter what, none of these costs are due until 31/12.
> I ask because I am leaving Spain on Wednesday but will return early November and will have much more time to process the info and research in between now and then. I would like to tell them tomorrow not do anything, leave my bank account alone etc until I am fully aware of my position, however I don't want to incur late payment costs so I do want to be clear on it.



No, they are all different times.

For us, basura is October, IBI is June (I think) and the gestor will bill after submitting the forms in December.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

snikpoh said:


> No, they are all different times.
> 
> For us, basura is October, IBI is June (I think) and the gestor will bill after submitting the forms in December.


We pay IBI in May and November and basura/agua is paid quarterly. 

Rewdan, I would ask these people for an itemised statement of exactly what you are getting for that fee. If they are paying your non-resident property tax (Modelo 210, nothing to do with IBI) out of it, you need to know the amount. If not, and it's just a "handling fee", tell them to stuff it.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

rewdan said:


> Just a thought but I am still deeply confused, do you think the fees from my fiscal rep may include non residents tax for my brother and myself (joint owners of the same property)


There is no tax on people, just on the property.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Alcalaina said:


> There is no tax on people, just on the property.


But as the property is jointly owned, each owner has to submit a Modelo 210 return in respect of their half.

Btw we get our IBI bills in August each year and the date by which payment must be made to avoid incurring surcharges is normally 12 September (unless you have arranged to spread the payments in instalments).

The reason I asked earlier in the thread what was the date the OP bought the property is that it isn't immediately clear whether this is his first year as a non resident owner or not. If it was bought prior to 1 January 2014 then a return would be due (in fact overdue) in respect of the 2013 tax year.


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## rewdan (Feb 23, 2010)

no, I bought it in 1999 and have been non resident since then. I have just never noticed these bills until now ! I will ask them for a breakdown of the bill.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

rewdan said:


> no, I bought it in 1999 and have been non resident since then. I have just never noticed these bills until now ! I will ask them for a breakdown of the bill.


Crikey! You're not Elton John in real life, are you?


I like flowers, says Sir Elton after £293,000 florists' bill - Telegraph

Definitely, you need the breakdown of the bill and to understand what you're paying for and why.


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## barryandjohn (Apr 21, 2013)

regarding paying taxes on our sole use apartment we received this from our tax advisor

Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2014 11:10 AM
Subject: State Tax Declaration 2013


Hello,

The state tax declaration for own use of your property is due. For the period the property was yours during 2013, the tax is 68,32 Euros (34,16 Euro each). Our yearly fee for making the declaration and paying the tax for you is 165 Euro, which makes a total of 233,32 Euro.

You have 123 Euro on your client account so we will prepare your declarations and pay the tax for you in the coming days, but ask you kindly to transfer the rest (110 Eur) at your soonest convenience. See our account details enclosed.

When the taxes have been paid, we´ll send you copies of the declarations per e-mail.

Kindly confirm that you have received this message!

Kind regards

I have been told that we have to use a Tax Advisor but this seems to me an expensive process for such a small bill €165 for a bill of less than €35 each 

Our advisors also wanted to pay our Ayuntamiento we owed in total €301 and they wanted €400 to pay this Thats € 99 to pay what i paid at the town hall for nothing it does seem to me we are being either forced or coerced into paying for services that are unnecessary why cant the tax authorities just send us a bill for €35 each for us to pay????


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Firstly, you are not 'obliged' to have a tax assessor - you can do it all yourselves if you wish.

Regarding the IBI payments, these can be taken directly from your bank account by direct debit if you wish.

I would also point out that the charges (IMHO) are excessive.


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## Dunpleecin (Dec 20, 2012)

My solicitor charges 75€ for sorting the tax out. This was going to be both the non resident property tax and the IBI. The town hall sent an IBI bill so that's easily done, but the tax bill is a bit more tricky. I think €600 is well over the top. To be honest €75 is a bit steep given the tax bill amount but it's better than €600 that's for sure.


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## barryandjohn (Apr 21, 2013)

*re taxes*

we are in gran canaria dont know if that makes a difference?


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## rewdan (Feb 23, 2010)

ok, I have just got the breakdown from my fiscal rep. The bill is for non residents tax. It is made up of 166euros for the tax man and 124euros for filling in the modelo 210 form and presenting it. As joint owners, my brother and myself get charged this each so my fiscal rep gets 248euros as they need to change the first name on the form from mine to my brothers. Seems a bit dear to me.

Also they attempted to take the monies at the beginning of the month and it bounced, which is why I noticed it, but they have told me it isn't actually due to be paid until the end of December! 

I need to find out how to get the Valor Catastral from the Ajuntaments website and also need to find the link someone kindly posted earlier to a Uk company that do this for £50. Anyone remember that?


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

rewdan said:


> ok, I have just got the breakdown from my fiscal rep. The bill is for non residents tax. It is made up of 166euros for the tax man and 124euros for filling in the modelo 210 form and presenting it. As joint owners, my brother and myself get charged this each so my fiscal rep gets 248euros as they need to change the first name on the form from mine to my brothers. Seems a bit dear to me.
> 
> Also they attempted to take the monies at the beginning of the month and it bounced, which is why I noticed it, but they have told me it isn't actually due to be paid until the end of December!
> 
> I need to find out how to get the Valor Catastral from the Ajuntaments website and also need to find the link someone kindly posted earlier to a Uk company that do this for £50. Anyone remember that?



The 'valor cadastral' is really nothing to do with your town hall. Look here and find your property; https://www.sedecatastro.gob.es

For a person who deals with form 210, try http://www.uk-taxrefund.com


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## rewdan (Feb 23, 2010)

I now have copies of previous forms, looks simple enough, I may have a go at it! My current reps breakdown gives the same amount of tax due this year as last year so I am guessing that other than the date, nothing has changed.
I tried the link and can find my properyty but no reference to this years Valor catastral, any more pointers?


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

rewdan said:


> I now have copies of previous forms, looks simple enough, I may have a go at it! My current reps breakdown gives the same amount of tax due this year as last year so I am guessing that other than the date, nothing has changed.
> I tried the link and can find my properyty but no reference to this years Valor catastral, any more pointers?


This was the firm I mentioned earlier which a friend of ours uses to submit her Modelo 210 returns, at low cost:-
Spanish Tax Forms Ltd: Spanish Tax made easy!: Home


With regard to the valor catastral, do you not have a copy of your 2014 IBI bill? The catastral value of the property is always shown on these bills.


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## rewdan (Feb 23, 2010)

I don't have a copy of my Ibi bill, more like a statement of outstanding amounts , the Ibi and the Basura. Do I just ask the town hall for my Ibi bill?


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

rewdan said:


> I don't have a copy of my Ibi bill, more like a statement of outstanding amounts , the Ibi and the Basura. Do I just ask the town hall for my Ibi bill?


If you don' have these bills then your agent must - get them to earn their money.


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## rewdan (Feb 23, 2010)

just sacked my agent, any idea how I get my IBI bill now? lol


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

rewdan said:


> just sacked my agent, any idea how I get my IBI bill now? lol


You should be able to get one from your Ayuntamiento, or the Patronato de Recaudacion office if you have one locally, next time you are in Spain. You will need to take your passport for ID and a copy of the escritura to prove you are the owner. Ask them to remove the details of your agent from the address for correspondence and send the bills to you in future (although they will go to your Spanish address). If you don't already pay the IBI bills by direct debit, ask them to set that up for next year as well, so you will need to have the details of your bank account with you as well.


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