# Haggling on a house



## Sophia B (Feb 24, 2016)

I would like to hear some opinions on haggling on houses in Spain these days - how much less can you offer? 
I understand it depends on a thousand things, but as a general thumb of rule? I've read people saying it's common to offer 25 percent less, but i wonder if that (still) applies, what do you think? It sounds like a huge reduction. 
In our specific case the owner is Spanish, i don't know if that matters. Some say they ask for what they want, while many foreigners expect to reduce their price...
How little can one offer without upsetting the owner  ?
I'd be super grateful if someone shared their thoughts on this!


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Sophia B said:


> I would like to hear some opinions on haggling on houses in Spain these days - how much less can you offer?
> I understand it depends on a thousand things, but as a general thumb of rule? I've read people saying it's common to offer 25 percent less, but i wonder if that (still) applies, what do you think? It sounds like a huge reduction.
> In our specific case the owner is Spanish, i don't know if that matters. Some say they ask for what they want, while many foreigners expect to reduce their price...
> How little can one offer without upsetting the owner  ?
> I'd be super grateful if someone shared their thoughts on this!


There have been several threads on this previously - maybe worth a look?


IMHO you should offer what you think the property is worth TO YOU.

There can never be an amount that one should try and reduce the asking price by - it depends on so many factors. For example, what if it's recently been reduced any way.

As I say, you know what it's worth to YOU - as it won't (in all likelihood) be being bought as an investment but as somewhere that you want to live for the rest of your life, then what does it really matter other than not wanting to pay 'over the odds'.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Sophia B said:


> I would like to hear some opinions on haggling on houses in Spain these days - how much less can you offer?
> I understand it depends on a thousand things, but as a general thumb of rule? I've read people saying it's common to offer 25 percent less, but i wonder if that (still) applies, what do you think? It sounds like a huge reduction.
> In our specific case the owner is Spanish, i don't know if that matters. Some say they ask for what they want, while many foreigners expect to reduce their price...
> How little can one offer without upsetting the owner  ?
> I'd be super grateful if someone shared their thoughts on this!


Don't bother about upsetting an owner. There are many houses in Spain that can't be sold today for 50% less than they were once worth. 

There are people who once turned down offers for 25% less and who eventually sold a lot cheaper.

Offer what you think it is worth.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Do a bit of homework. Ask around close by. No good offering 50% off if it has already been substantially reduced. The latest homes in the sun programme seem to be advising to offer 15% less although I am not sure if they are in the know.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

When we bought our house (2007) it was on offer at 87k. We offered 85k which is what we thought it was worth and it was accepted without a murmur. We are still very friendly with the vendor. One of the things you risk by pushing the price too low is making enemies among the other residents (who may well be related to the vendor) who could potentially make your life hell.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

They would be very small minded to react in that way- at the end of the day it's the seller who decides if the offers acceptable, not the potential purchaser


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Rabbitcat said:


> They would be very small minded to react in that way- at the end of the day it's the seller who decides if the offers acceptable, not the potential purchaser


Some Spaniards can be quite clique-y especially if they are inter-related as many are.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

I don't doubt that Baldi but I find such a reaction totally illogical . If the seller willingly accepts an offer why are they upset???


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## Madliz (Feb 4, 2011)

As has been said before, do your homework. Compare asking prices for similar homes in the area. Get an idea of whether the property you're interested in is competitively priced or not. 

I have my own house on the market and have dropped my price 40% from a valuation that was done in 2007, in line with how prices have dropped since. It is broadly in line with local properties, but has a higher spec. I am not desperate to sell, and would therefore not contemplate an offer more than 15% lower, maybe 10% would be acceptable. I have to consider what I would pay for my next home. It depends on personal circumstances to a large degree. 

If somebody made what to me was a derisory offer and I refused, I would still be ready to listen to an improved offer, so you can but try!


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Rabbitcat said:


> I don't doubt that Baldi but I find such a reaction totally illogical . If the seller willingly accepts an offer why are they upset???


Because the seller may have been desperate and forced to take any offer and the buyer might have been thought to be taking advantage. As far as attitudes are concerned some of the older Spanish go back to the Civil War and the postwar times when neighbour would take the ultimate revenge on neighbour over some minor perceived wrong. There are still many old-scores lurking under the surface awaiting settlement despite the "forgetting."


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

I hear what you're saying but at the end of the day a seller doesn't have to accept any offer. If he does accept an offer then that's his free choice. 

Though I can well imagine some right nutters bearing pointless grudges


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Rabbitcat said:


> Though I can well imagine some right nutters bearing pointless grudges


Oh they certainly did. During the civil war, many old grudges were settled by making false accusations to the Guardia Civil or others (especially the Falangists) and the victim would "disappear" never to be heard of again. Maybe some 20, 30, 50, 100 or more years later some unidentifiable human remains might be uncovered.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Picaresca ... actitud poco honrada... La picaresca consiste en engañar y aprovecharse de los demás en beneficio propio.

For which the only response is... do unto others before they do unto you

Haggle hard!


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Here they will not even reply to offers considered far to low. On occasions they will then refuse to deal with you again.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

gus-lopez said:


> Here they will not even reply to offers considered far to low. On occasions they will then refuse to deal with you again.


Shame. Next!


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## EdofWigan (Jun 28, 2015)

The Spanish culture is very different from mine. 

I am not one to haggle but in other cultures it is the norm, in fact not to haggle can be an insult






for example

Obviously it is a Gourd and as such not even a single fork handle, let alone four !


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

Make an offer on what you think its worth, they can only say 'no'


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## Sophia B (Feb 24, 2016)

Thanks for all your replies!

But what if you then do find a house and you like it a lot and then the agent says, all of a sudden, that the price is not negotiable? I mean, the ad didn't state it, the price was not discussed before, i even mentioned the possibility of making an offer before, and he didn't say anything to that. Now, when we actually made an offer (10percent less than asking price), he says that the owner won't accept, that the price is not negotiable and that there are other people interested too.

What do you do then? Just pay the full price? Is it foolish? Or the only thing to do? It is a very nice house and the price is very reasonable, but still ----


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Sophia B said:


> Thanks for all your replies!
> 
> But what if you then do find a house and you like it a lot and then the agent says, all of a sudden, that the price is not negotiable? I mean, the ad didn't state it, the price was not discussed before, i even mentioned the possibility of making an offer before, and he didn't say anything to that. Now, when we actually made an offer (10percent less than asking price), he says that the owner won't accept, that the price is not negotiable and that there are other people interested too.
> 
> What do you do then? Just pay the full price? Is it foolish? Or the only thing to do? It is a very nice house and the price is very reasonable, but still ----


In Spain the same property is often listed by more than one agent. I would check to see if I could find it with a different agent.

I'd also request that he puts the offer to the vendor to see what reaction it gets.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Horlics said:


> In Spain the same property is often listed by more than one agent. I would check to see if I could find it with a different agent.
> 
> I'd also request that he puts the offer to the vendor to see what reaction it gets.


Then if there is no change, decide what is the house really *worth to you.* Is it worth the price the owner wants? If Yes, buy it; if No, walk away.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

baldilocks said:


> Some Spaniards can be quite clique-y especially if they are inter-related as many are.


I didn't think the Spanish were any more inter-related than any other western European country. They have the extended family culture of course, but inter-related?


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Sophia B said:


> Thanks for all your replies!
> 
> But what if you then do find a house and you like it a lot and then the agent says, all of a sudden, that the price is not negotiable? I mean, the ad didn't state it, the price was not discussed before, i even mentioned the possibility of making an offer before, and he didn't say anything to that. Now, when we actually made an offer (10percent less than asking price), he says that the owner won't accept, that the price is not negotiable and that there are other people interested too.
> 
> What do you do then? Just pay the full price? Is it foolish? Or the only thing to do? It is a very nice house and the price is very reasonable, but still ----


There are two tactics you can employ: Look for "the one" and end up investing more time and money in that special house, or you can "play the field" by making low offers on any house that meets your requirements, and seeing who bites. It sounds like you have used the first tactic and are now unsure because you don't know the market. If you are unsure about the market then I think the second tactic is better.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

When I bought I had no plans to sell any time soon after. I was certain it would be a long term thing hence the decision to buy.

But, I still targeted properties that I thought I could sell within a reasonable amount of time if I had to, and I aimed to buy at a price which left me comfortable that I might be able to get something around what I paid for it. 

Now, the second of those two is difficult because of course there can be huge shifts in market values. But I was, and you are, buying after approaching a decade of no growth and some big depreciation in prices. I felt confident at the time of buying that I wouldn't lose more than 20% if I had to sell for some reason and I was OK with the level of exposure, if that's the appropriate term.

In other words, like Chopera said before me.... know the market. Know it, and offer what the house is worth within that market. It's all very well falling in love with a place that's owned by a nutter who's lost touch with reality and wants 50% over market value, but that's not a game I would play.

Before I finally bought the place i have now I put in an offer on a different one. The owner told the agent to explain to me that in 2008 it was worth x more than it was now listed for. My response... "interesting but irrelevant".


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Chopera said:


> I didn't think the Spanish were any more inter-related than any other western European country. They have the extended family culture of course, but inter-related?


Until recent times, mobility of a large proportion of the population in Spain was limited, partly through a lack of means of travel and also from poverty. The families were often beholden to the rich landowner so found it difficult to leave anyway. 

Consider a small tied-village/hamlet with a population of say twenty families and each of those families has five children. The youngest daughter in each case cannot marry because her role will be to take care of her parents in old-age, that leaves four marriageable children in each family. If each of those 80 children marry, allowing for the prohibitions of consanguinity, you will have at least 40 marriages, each of which will have brothers/sisters in-law who are directly related. A couple of generations down the line and you will have hundreds of families which are interrelated.

This village has a population of just under 5,000 and falling and there are whole streets where all the families are related to varying degrees. repeat this all over Spain...

Spain did not have an industrial revolution like Britain so the work has mostly been tied to the land which results in far lower levels of migration to new employment opportunities. This excludes such areas as the Basque and Catalan regions where that has been more industry.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

baldilocks said:


> Until recent times, mobility of a large proportion of the population in Spain was limited, partly through a lack of means of travel and also from poverty. The families were often beholden to the rich landowner so found it difficult to leave anyway.
> 
> Consider a small tied-village/hamlet with a population of say twenty families and each of those families has five children. The youngest daughter in each case cannot marry because her role will be to take care of her parents in old-age, that leaves four marriageable children in each family. If each of those 80 children marry, allowing for the prohibitions of consanguinity, you will have at least 40 marriages, each of which will have brothers/sisters in-law who are directly related. A couple of generations down the line and you will have hundreds of families which are interrelated.
> 
> ...


Yes this applies to any remote and rural area, regardless of country. I wasn't sure if you were referring to something to do with Spanish culture or just down to geography. Although I doubt this is that relevant to where most people are looking to buy property these days.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Chopera said:


> Yes this applies to any remote and rural area, regardless of country. I wasn't sure if you were referring to something to do with Spanish culture or just down to geography. Although I doubt this is that relevant to where most people are looking to buy property these days.


Much of Spain has been in the hands of a few rich landowners who had the lives of many people in their hands, not only those who lived on their lands but also day workers (jornaleros) who were hired by the day by the foremen (caciques). The policy was to keep the labourers and their families poor and dependent upon their landowners who couldn't give a dam about them as long as the work got done. Any attempts to revolt against the system were met with violent beatings, employment of outside labourers so that the landowners' tenants were left without work and therefore no food or by leaving great tracts of land uncultivated with similar results. It was trying to buck this trend that lead to the Republican government of the 1930s and ultimately to the Civil War. 

The reason these landowners were so big and powerful (more so than the monarch) goes back to the times of the Visigoths and before. Kings were not hereditary and were elected. It was common for a potential candidate for kingship to offer bribes of land (often not within their gift, i.e. they didn't own it) to secure votes. Those with more land had more clout and could then manipulate the king to make them wealthier either by land, money or other favours. One of the favours they acquired was the avoidance of taxes and this filtered down into the upper middle classes, so that the poor lower classes shouldered the entire burden of taxation, thus making them poorer still and several times in history the king had to declare bankruptcy because the poor, subject to the whim of the landowners, had no money to pay the taxes. (does some of the foregoing sound like the Britain of Camoron and Osbourne?)

The poor villagers had to stick together and support each other to survive and if you are in that type of situation then blood is thicker than water so your survival depended to a large extent on the support you got from those related to you.

Relevance? Many Andalucian villagers are very land-hungry because, with land and property comes wealth and this controls their selling.


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## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> Much of Spain has been in the hands of a few rich landowners who had the lives of many people in their hands, not only those who lived on their lands but also day workers (jornaleros) who were hired by the day by the foremen (caciques).


A foreman is a *capataz* not a cacique. You could cause offense by misusing this word!


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

anles said:


> A foreman is a *capataz* not a cacique. You could cause offense by misusing this word!


OK so he was the local chief but, in reality, he is the landowner's henchman or local foreman of all those who live on that part of landowner's lands and hires/fires the labourers. I tried to make it understandable for others. He supervises/rules and manages the village/hamlet, or a group of them. He also exercises the labourer's right to vote and casts the votes according to the landowner's wishes.


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## xgarb (May 6, 2011)

Sophia B said:


> Thanks for all your replies!
> 
> But what if you then do find a house and you like it a lot and then the agent says, all of a sudden, that the price is not negotiable?



I saw a house last May. Made an offer.. agent laughed and said no way. I asked him if it was possible to check with the owner. He said no, if we don't buy it someone else will.

It's still for sale.

I did actually get the owners details after a few months and they would reduce the price but not to the price I wanted to pay.

In the UK the agent legally has to convey offers to the owners but not here. They do what they like and it some cases charge both parties 2% or more for the 'service'.

But... if you really like the house and the price is good, sometimes it's better to pay and just get on with your life.


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

So to summarize before you attempt to make a lower offer, first attend your local college for a social history lesson.
Or Wikipedia what you want to cut & paste


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## Roy C (Sep 29, 2012)

I'm going over in June and intend to buy then. My tactic will be to view a number of houses and find a few suitable places. I will then make an offer between 10 and 15 maybe 20% below the asking price. They can only say no and if they were to all say no at least I have room for negotiation. It is still a buyers market even though I will try and strike a reasonable offer.


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