# deposit



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Well I've been spending the last few days cleaning and doing a bit of painting on our old rental property. It was spotless when we moved in and I was determined to make it spotless when we moved out! In my opinion I achieved that, actually I'm pretty clean and tidy anyway. Ok the garden was beyond my ability, the lawn went brown and altho I watered it, it was never back to its former glory. Its only a small garden tho

However, I was hoping and expecting to get a significant percentage of my deposit back!

Tonight I met the landlord, he went over the house with a fine tooth comb, found every tiny weeny fault (ie the grouting on some of the floor tiles was dirty!!), he then looked at the garden which I estimate would cost about 100€ and a days work tops to put right and announced that I wouldnt be getting my deposit back... not any of it!! When I argued he said that I'd also broken the air con and it had cost him 500€ to repair (it didnt ever work). I'm really upset, I thought he was a nice chap!

The irony is that by pure fluke (nothing to do with me or lack of funds) the bank hadnt paid last months rent!!??? He's demanding I pay that too, he even wanted me to sign an agreement right there and then to say I would! Which I refused. 

Because I'm honest, theres part of me that thinks I should do the honorable thing and pay it to him... but... he has my deposit and wont give it back claiming al sorts of costs and reasons......!!! 

Does anybody have any opinions on what I should do???

Jo xx


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## Chica (Mar 23, 2009)

Jo, there is bound to be some wear and tear over time. How long was you in the house? If the air con broke, in my eyes he should be the one to fix it...how can you break the aircon?? Dirty grouting between the tiles...if anyone knows how to avoid this can you please advise me...isn't that down to a cheap grout?? He's had his house decorated!!! Who in their right mind what grass a house that's rented out?? What happens if there is nobody in there renting it and the sprinkler system breaks down?? 

Jo, there are some money grabbers out there. My friend (not close) let out her appartment and charged a holiday couple €300 for a coffee stain on her mattress saying there is no steam cleaning company...friend or no, it has made me very wary of her!!

If I was you I wouldn't pay the last month's rent!! he probably doesn't expect you to really...just trying it on.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Chica said:


> Jo, there is bound to be some wear and tear over time. How long was you in the house? If the air con broke, in my eyes he should be the one to fix it...how can you break the aircon?? Dirty grouting between the tiles...if anyone knows how to avoid this can you please advise me...isn't that down to a cheap grout?? He's had his house decorated!!! Who in their right mind what grass a house that's rented out?? What happens if there is nobody in there renting it and the sprinkler system breaks down??
> 
> Jo, there are some money grabbers out there. My friend (not close) let out her appartment and charged a holiday couple €300 for a coffee stain on her mattress saying there is no steam cleaning company...friend or no, it has made me very wary of her!!
> 
> If I was you I wouldn't pay the last month's rent!! he probably doesn't expect you to really...just trying it on.


We were in the house one year and one month! And altho there was a little wear and tear, its really minimal, but I went round the whole house, cleaning and touching up paintwork, I even tried to clean the grouting and was successful in most places. I even replaced 2 glasses that we'd broken! The aircon is an integral system with vents in each room and a main unit that services them all. Since the day we moved in it didnt work cos it had a faulty programmer which wouldnt allow the vents to open, we had to wait until September for the guy to come out and repair it and of course by then it was passed the heat of the summer anyway!

Having thought about it for a while I'm now quite angry that he's being like this! No I'm not going to pay the last months rent! I actually had every intention of doing so, but I'm glad I didnt! I've checked with the bank and they had in fact made an error (I changed branches a few weeks ago and they hadnt transfered the standing orders).

TBH I bet he doesnt get a cleaner in anyway, he has no new tenants in the pipeline, so he'd be wasting his time if he did! As for the garden, well maybe someone could go in, water the lawn and bring it back to life, mow it and give the rest of the garden a weeding - I expected to pay for that, but it would only have been a days work tops!! 100€, if that??!



Jo xxx


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## paul.I.O.W (Jul 13, 2009)

Im sorry to here about your deposit jo, do you think that no matter what you did to clean the house and do the small repairs doyou think that he had no intention of giving you your deposit back. we have had the same prob with a house my son was renting we had a months rent to pay and said you keep the deposit in loo of this months rent. It gets right up nose when you try to do the right thing and you know that you was not going to get it back, so if you think you have returnd the the property back in good condition then that is that paul.i.o.w


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

Don't pay - simple.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

SteveHall said:


> Don't pay - simple.


oh! The elusive Sr. Hall!!!!! Nice to hear from you! 

You know me, the house and Paco my landlord! Do you think he's pushing his luck somewhat?? I actually think his wife is the driving force here, she was a real "dragon", wandering around the house looking in cupboards, the fridge, oven, drawers, checking how clean everything was and tutting alot. She didnt smile or make eye contact once!

Jo xxx


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## Spanky McSpank (Aug 27, 2009)

You have to be strong with Spaniards or they will walk all over you. You have to tell him in no in no uncertain terms. He is out to make a quick buck, will have done it 1000 times before. English people tend to be more passive sometimes.

Add up what you think how much deposit he should keep. If it is nothing, it is nothing.
If he insists, get the police involved.


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

Jo

We had a similar situation with a Spanish landlord after we rented his villa for almost 2 years .... we held the last months rent back until the "final inspection" as we had been warned that even the nicest landlords can turn funny when it comes to deposits!

They had been brilliant throughout the tenancy and we had been good tenants and like you we painted, cleaned and made sure everthing was ok - BUT they tried to tell us we needed to pay for "annual air conditionining testing & cleaning" yeah right!!! and some minor things like chipped paint on the entrance doors .... we refused! as the maintenance of the air con is his responsbility not ours! so in the end we just told him to keep the desposit and we kept the final months rent instead .... strange thing is they actually sent me some flowers a week later and thanked us for taking care of the house!!

I wouldnt pay if you genuinely feel he is trying it on!

They are so naughty with this - it really annoys me! especially when they seem to take advantage of good tenants .....

Sue


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## Liberty (Jul 12, 2009)

Spanky McSpank said:


> You have to be strong with Spaniards or they will walk all over you. You have to tell him in no in no uncertain terms. He is out to make a quick buck, will have done it 1000 times before. English people tend to be more passive sometimes.
> 
> Add up what you think how much deposit he should keep. If it is nothing, it is nothing.
> If he insists, get the police involved.


I don't think the police will get involved with a civil matter....that would be a solicitor, and if the legal beagles get involved there is every change they would fall down on the side of the landlord.....all he has to do is get someone to provide an inflated quote for the repair to the garden and Jo will not see her deposit again. 

But there is _*no way*_ he would pay a solicitor to recuperate just a few hundred euros, it simply isn´t economically viable. It might be a different matter if you hadn't paid the last 8 months rent or something! I would just walk away (and make sure you don't give him your new address!!!).


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## Liberty (Jul 12, 2009)

This is nothing to do with Jo's particular case, but just a general comment.......unlike in the UK, in Spain the TENANTS are responsible for the maintenance of the property. So if the air-con or the boiler breaks down the tenant should fix it (or pray that they have a particularly generous landlord). There is a grace period, something like the first month but I forget, so during that time the landlord would be responsible but after that you are on your own.

I think a lot of British tenants come acropper with their Spanish landlords over this point as most British tenants do not realise they are responsible for repairs, as they would not be if they were in the UK.


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

Liberty said:


> This is nothing to do with Jo's particular case, but just a general comment.......unlike in the UK, in Spain the TENANTS are responsible for the maintenance of the property. So if the air-con or the boiler breaks down the tenant should fix it (or pray that they have a particularly generous landlord). There is a grace period, something like the first month but I forget, so during that time the landlord would be responsible but after that you are on your own.
> 
> I think a lot of British tenants come acropper with their Spanish landlords over this point as most British tenants do not realise they are responsible for repairs, as they would not be if they were in the UK.


Hi Liberty

This has been brought up before, and the main thing to remember is READ YOUR CONTRACT before signing it! Any clauses relating to maintenance etc can be removed or amended prior to signing if both parties are in agreement (we have done this and I know one or two others on here have too).

As for a Lawyer being involved, its very doubtful as you say given the amounts involved and time it takes to resolve such a case. Even if a Lawyer were involved by the landlord dont assume they would be on the side of the landlord - a decent Lawyer would be on the side of the person in the right, and in accordance with any contracts that were in place.

To be honest this is a daily occurence here - so I wouldnt lose to much sleep over it Jo as hard as it may feel at the moment! We have had to have lengthy conversations and stand our ground as we have vacated every single property we have rented here!!!! Its unusual for them not to try it on!

Sue :ranger:


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Liberty said:


> This is nothing to do with Jo's particular case, but just a general comment.......unlike in the UK, in Spain the TENANTS are responsible for the maintenance of the property. So if the air-con or the boiler breaks down the tenant should fix it (or pray that they have a particularly generous landlord). There is a grace period, something like the first month but I forget, so during that time the landlord would be responsible but after that you are on your own.
> 
> I think a lot of British tenants come acropper with their Spanish landlords over this point as most British tenants do not realise they are responsible for repairs, as they would not be if they were in the UK.


Hmmmm, I would have gone along with everyone else here and said basically don't pay if you think you looked after the property, and it certainly sounds like you did. 
However with this info from Liberty it makes it sound like the typical cultural misunderstanding and this does ring a bell from some friends of mine who rent out in Orihuela. Can anybody confirm that the tennants are responible for repairs to rented property??
I would also say to Jojo the same as Sue - don't lose any sleep about it!!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Suenneil said:


> Hi Liberty
> 
> This has been brought up before, and the main thing to remember is READ YOUR CONTRACT before signing it! Any clauses relating to maintenance etc can be removed or amended prior to signing if both parties are in agreement (we have done this and I know one or two others on here have too).
> 
> ...


exactly sue - it depends on your contract

we have done the same thing - had clauses regarding maintenance removed/altered


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## Liberty (Jul 12, 2009)

Suenneil said:


> Hi Liberty
> 
> This has been brought up before, and the main thing to remember is READ YOUR CONTRACT before signing it! Any clauses relating to maintenance etc can be removed or amended prior to signing if both parties are in agreement (we have done this and I know one or two others on here have too).
> 
> ...


Actually one other general point I would like to make (not specific to anyone's case here) is that your rental contract amounts to little more than a gentleman's agreement. 

Why? Because contract law is not as high up on the ladder as statute law, and so anything written in statute law will always override what you have written in your contract. Most rental contracts contain "abusive clauses" which would not be held up in a court of law.

So, for example, if your landlord writes into the contract that he is entitled to enter the property once every so often to "check" it, he can still only do so with your knowledge and consent on each and every occasion as there is no provision in statute law for this. If you do not give him your consent, but he enters anyway it is a criminal offence! Wierd, but true.

Under statute law the tenants have all the power and the landlord is very vulnerable. As a tenant you have no reason to worry about anything the landlord threatens to do as you are always in the driving seat.

(I should probably add that this only refers to when the property is your main residence, not a holiday home).


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

Unfortunately (or fortunately ???) many landlords here dont even have their properties registered for rental purposes or declare their earnings on the income .... so when push comes to shove they are highly unlikely to want any involvement from a legal aspect and certainly not present in Court!

I had our Lawyers check out a contract a couple of years ago when the agents were asking for 5 months rent as we were leaving prior to the end of the contract finishing date .... turns out they cant do this, and even worse the rental contract in place referred to a "Holiday let" which apparently is different to a short / long term rental contract.

Again I wouldnt worry too much about it and just keep your last months rent in lieu of the deposit - unless there is a percentage of this that you believe is genuinely owed to cover any damages.

Sue


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

Liberty said:


> This is nothing to do with Jo's particular case, but just a general comment.......unlike in the UK, in Spain the TENANTS are responsible for the maintenance of the property. So if the air-con or the boiler breaks down the tenant should fix it (or pray that they have a particularly generous landlord). There is a grace period, something like the first month but I forget, so during that time the landlord would be responsible but after that you are on your own.
> 
> I think a lot of British tenants come acropper with their Spanish landlords over this point as most British tenants do not realise they are responsible for repairs, as they would not be if they were in the UK.


**This is just plain WRONG. 

Everything depends on the individual contract. The only thing that matters is what is written in your contract. 

I have just had a paragraph about maintenance ripped out of a contract on a cheap long-term rent. I had another paragraph amended whereby the tenant was responsible for the communal gardens!!!! The landlord said "he had not noticed" but if the lady had signed then BY LAW she could have been responsible for the communal gardens for about 120 people!! He shrugged his shoulders. I scribbled out the offending sentences. 

Another point to re-make: NO contract in Spain has any validity in law whatsoever unless it is written in Spanish. So, if you have a problem with a tenant and you have only an English language contract there is nothing you can do under Spanish law. If you are going to sign contracts in Spanish get somebody to check them out - you could be in for an expensive "surprise".


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

jojo said:


> oh! The elusive Sr. Hall!!!!! Nice to hear from you!
> 
> You know me, the house and Paco my landlord! Do you think he's pushing his luck somewhat?? I actually think his wife is the driving force here, she was a real "dragon", wandering around the house looking in cupboards, the fridge, oven, drawers, checking how clean everything was and tutting alot. She didnt smile or make eye contact once!
> 
> Jo xxx


I'd say - "Paco, this is what I think is reasonable. 

I owe you a

You owe me b 

Therefore either you pay me c or I pay you d."

If he refuses to pay, smile and walk away "¡Que lástima pero me voy!"

If he "insists" you pay, smile and walk away "¡Que lástima pero me voy!"

If you feel "clever" you could add, "This is sad, Steve called me to say he has a potential tenant for you starting from next week. I don't think he'll be interested if you try to screw me over, Paco." Smile and then walk away. 

I am a bit bored of sorting out deposit issues. It seems the curse of 2009 and I can ABSOLUTELY GUARANTEE that it is not just the Spanish who are involved. Agents in Torrevieja (English) who sent 3 heavies around to collect from an 82 year old lady who was dying of cancer were not interested that the house was INFESTED with cockroaches. (She has since passed away).


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## Spanky McSpank (Aug 27, 2009)

Liberty said:


> I don't think the police will get involved with a civil matter....that would be a solicitor, and if the legal beagles get involved there is every change they would fall down on the side of the landlord.....all he has to do is get someone to provide an inflated quote for the repair to the garden and Jo will not see her deposit again.
> 
> But there is _*no way*_ he would pay a solicitor to recuperate just a few hundred euros, it simply isn´t economically viable. It might be a different matter if you hadn't paid the last 8 months rent or something! I would just walk away (and make sure you don't give him your new address!!!).


I´m not being funny but I have heard countless stories of expats being ripped off, a Spaniard would tell the landlord to get ******! I advise if you have a Spanish friend to get them involved. Many times the English are too passive and don´t know how to argue their case in Spanish, and if they argue it´s done too softly. 

Bang those fists on the table (although just for show) and argue your case, if not you´ll end up paying).´The landlord already has you labelled as "guiris" and prolly done it 10000 times before. I´m telling you he wouldn´t do it a Spaniard..

I am half Spanish I know how these tw**s work, give me his phone number ya!!


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

Spanky, Pretty much my "take"


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Pretty much my take too!!! I've got my estate agent friend Hayley involved .... paco needs to be afraid, very afraid LOL. She's a great friend, a great estate agent but a terrifying enemy!!!!


Jo xxx


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

Hum .... I wonder if he's paying taxes on his rental income...


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2009)

During my different stays in Spain I did pay three deposits for renting an apartment. I did never did receive anything back from my deposit. The last one should have given me 1'800 Euros when I left the place. When I told him this was not correct, he did say : "This is business". Never expect to have a deposit back in Spain. If you ever get something back it would be an exception.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Eva33 said:


> During my different stays in Spain I did pay three deposits for renting an apartment. I did never did receive anything back from my deposit. The last one should have given me 1'800 Euros when I left the place. When I told him this was not correct, he did say : "This is business". Never expect to have a deposit back in Spain. If you ever get something back it would be an exception.


I guess if thats how they want to play it then they shouldnt expect their last months rent!!! Afterall, "this is business" too LOL

Jo xx


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## Spanky McSpank (Aug 27, 2009)

Eva33 said:


> During my different stays in Spain I did pay three deposits for renting an apartment. I did never did receive anything back from my deposit. The last one should have given me 1'800 Euros when I left the place. When I told him this was not correct, he did say : "This is business". Never expect to have a deposit back in Spain. If you ever get something back it would be an exception.



Again too soft. If I were owed 1800 euros I would damn well get it back for sure.


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

Yes, Spanky I have some Serbian friends who think that battery acid is for getting rid of wrinkles and if they spike and break one kneecap you still have another one for them for next week.


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## Spanky McSpank (Aug 27, 2009)

SteveHall said:


> Yes, Spanky I have some Serbian friends who think that battery acid is for getting rid of wrinkles and if they spike and break one kneecap you still have another one for them for next week.



Steve. I´m just saying I would get it back , I eat muesli so I´m not all violent.


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

Me neither, I'm a vegetarian ...... but there are two things I don't like in life - owing money and being owed money. (In the spirit of friendship I'll ignore Man Cxxx and Arsenal) 

Alexs doesn't like going hungry and as he is never likely to figure on anyone's payroll he finds his own ways of making a living. Airport runs are beneath him - recovering a car or a debt aren't!


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

Spanky McSpank said:


> Again too soft. If I were owed 1800 euros I would damn well get it back for sure.


I consider myself to be a law abiding citizen and like to play things the right way ... BUT after our first rental experience of fighting for our deposit back we have just retained our last months rent in lieu of the deposit on every property since then (5) ..... just to make sure  and its ever really been a problem dong that, although the agent / landlord always makes some show of how wrong it is - they shut up when you stand your ground.

Sue :ranger:


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

I've just been to see the agent and had a blazing row with her - well nearly, I made it clear I am not a fishwife and will not raise my voice and "carry on" but I said my peice and made my point very clear!! Apparently the poor landlord was so disgusted by the state I left the house that he simply had to get cleaners in yesterday who charges 500€ cos they had to go in at short notice. The garden will cost at least another 500€ and there is the electricity bill which ok, we havent paid, simply cos we havent got the factura yet. 

The agent is adamant that we MUST pay the last months rent and I'm adamant that we wont as I dispute the claim that the house was nothing but spotless. It seems strange to me that the ammounts that are reguired to put the house right are the same ammount as my deposit!

I also will not pay anything anyway without seeing correct written estimates/receipts and not just the landlords claims!

OOOOOHHHHH, I'M SO ANGRY!!!!! AAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH

Jo xxx


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

jojo said:


> I've just been to see the agent and had a blazing row with her - well nearly, I made it clear I am not a fishwife and will not raise my voice and "carry on" but I said my peice and made my point very clear!! Apparently the poor landlord was so disgusted by the state I left the house that he simply had to get cleaners in yesterday who charges 500€ cos they had to go in at short notice. The garden will cost at least another 500€ and there is the electricity bill which ok, we havent paid, simply cos we havent got the factura yet.
> 
> The agent is adamant that we MUST pay the last months rent and I'm adamant that we wont as I dispute the claim that the house was nothing but spotless. It seems strange to me that the ammounts that are reguired to put the house right are the same ammount as my deposit!
> 
> ...


Jo ..... Im not sure what you have told them about your new place ... but I would just go now and dont have another conversation with them - tell them to text you when the electricity factura is here so you can pay that .... in my experience you just need to walk away - the longer you try to negotiate and compromise the longer it goes on with no resolution.

Sue xxx


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## Guest (Sep 2, 2009)

jojo said:


> I've just been to see the agent and had a blazing row with her - well nearly, I made it clear I am not a fishwife and will not raise my voice and "carry on" but I said my peice and made my point very clear!! Apparently the poor landlord was so disgusted by the state I left the house that he simply had to get cleaners in yesterday who charges 500€ cos they had to go in at short notice. The garden will cost at least another 500€ and there is the electricity bill which ok, we havent paid, simply cos we havent got the factura yet.
> 
> The agent is adamant that we MUST pay the last months rent and I'm adamant that we wont as I dispute the claim that the house was nothing but spotless. It seems strange to me that the ammounts that are reguired to put the house right are the same ammount as my deposit!
> 
> ...


Hi Jojo,
I can feel with you! But this problems are included in the downsides of Spain. Take it or leave it. There are quite a few of them if you compare Spain to more developed European countries. I went once to the Guardia Civil to make a complaint and they simply did answer " If you do not like it here, go back home". I think there are more and more expats which, for different reasons, are considering this option and this will probably not be to the advantage of Spain.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Suenneil said:


> Jo ..... Im not sure what you have told them about your new place ... but I would just go now and dont have another conversation with them - tell them to text you when the electricity factura is here so you can pay that .... in my experience you just need to walk away - the longer you try to negotiate and compromise the longer it goes on with no resolution.
> 
> Sue xxx



I totally agree Sue. And thats what I'm gonna do. I had to go in this morning cos I still had the back door key to the property and had to take it back. I also needed to show them a water bill and proof of payment that exlandord claimed I hadnt paid.

But thats it now and thats what I've told the agent. IMO Its stalemate. They dont know where my new house is and altho they can still contact me via mobile/email, I have no intention of dragging this on any further.

Jo xxx


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

jojo said:


> I totally agree Sue. And thats what I'm gonna do. I had to go in this morning cos I still had the back door key to the property and had to take it back. I also needed to show them a water bill and proof of payment that exlandord claimed I hadnt paid.
> 
> But thats it now and thats what I've told the agent. IMO Its stalemate. They dont know where my new house is and altho they can still contact me via mobile/email, I have no intention of dragging this on any further.
> 
> Jo xxx


Exactly.... I would just go and start enjoying your new place - you know yourself whether or not you owe him any money for the claims he is making - if you dont then just move on. As I said they can text you when they have the factura for the electricity bill 

Chin up  Sue x


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jojo said:


> I totally agree Sue. And thats what I'm gonna do. I had to go in this morning cos I still had the back door key to the property and had to take it back. I also needed to show them a water bill and proof of payment that exlandord claimed I hadnt paid.
> 
> But thats it now and thats what I've told the agent. IMO Its stalemate. They dont know where my new house is and altho they can still contact me via mobile/email, I have no intention of dragging this on any further.
> 
> Jo xxx


there's an agent?

in that case surely the agent should be the one to do the 'exit check' as an 'uninvolved, no axe to grind' buffer between you & the owner in any case


just go - leave them your e mail address so that they can send the bill - maybe put it in writing that you will pay the bill when they let you see it

& go....................


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

500 euros cleaning!!!!! That is ca 40 hours - I could clean a pigsty in that, never mind your des res.

Just GO and then tell Paco to call me re any outstanding utilities. You could also remind him of my friends at the Hacienda in Benalmádena. Steve was talking to them about the situation and they were just wondering why Jojo did not get receipted monthly invoices. They are "sure" however that he is declaring...Steve will make very sure of that!! 

Just GO


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

SteveHall said:


> 500 euros cleaning!!!!! That is ca 40 hours - I could clean a pigsty in that, never mind your des res.
> 
> Just GO and then tell Paco to call me re any outstanding utilities. You could also remind him of my friends at the Hacienda in Benalmádena. Steve was talking to them about the situation and they were just wondering why Jojo did not get receipted monthly invoices. They are "sure" however that he is declaring...Steve will make very sure of that!!
> 
> Just GO


Hiya Steve  sorry to digress! but are you back with us in Spain now


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