# Canadian living in France, married to Brit - EEA Family pmt?



## gmjk (Sep 3, 2012)

Hello all,
I'm new to the forum but finding searching through has been very helpful. Now I'm looking for some advice (hold on to your hats, it's a bit of a read):

My husband has British Citizenship and we want to move to the UK. After advice from a poster on another form, I'm considering entering the UK under the 'Surinder Singh' clause, as opposed to going through the process of obtaining a spouse visa. Here's the background:

- My husband and I were both born in Canada. He also has British citizenship and a British passport. Over two years ago we moved to France to live, and have both been working - I was able to work because of his UK citizenship. It was a bit of pain to get the permit, but not expensive - just standard French bureaucracy. We decided we wanted to move to London, and he accepted a job offer in the UK a month ago and moved over there last week to set up residency. My intention was to apply for a UK visa as the spouse of a UK citizen.

- The reason I posted another thread in that forum was to ask about the financial requirements - long story short, my husband's new job will pay more than the 18,600 GBP required, but he just started. In Paris, we made more than the equivalent of 18,600 GBP combined - but not each. I was wondering which documents I needed to pay 50 euros a page to translate.

- In that thread, another poster mentioned the possibility of applying for an EEA family permit, and wow. I wouldn't have to pay the 1000GBP visa fee, or get reams of documents translated. It's a bit of slipperyness, but apparently under this Singh clause, if a UK national has been exercising their treaty rights (like working in France, in this case) they can return to the UK with their spouse. As written on the UKBA website:



> However, the European Court of Justice held in Case C-370/90 that British citizens can rely on European law in circumstances where they are returning to
> the UK in order to work or settle here in a self-sufficient capacity
> after working in another European Union state. In these circumstances,
> the returning British citizen has the right to be accompanied by his or
> ...


After reading the application form EEA2 it seems very possible that this applies to us. Has anyone been through this?
*Does anyone have information about:
- whether the EEA family permit can be applied for within the UK (currently we're splashing out for an apartment in Paris and one in London while I deal with visa applications, it's not cheap to say the least)
- how long this application process would take - I know it can take up to six months, don't know if thats the norm.
Thanks very much.


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## gmjk (Sep 3, 2012)

Re-reading the EEA2 form, it says the applicant can apply from within the country, leading to a new question: will I, a Canadian living in France, be able to enter the country with the intent of getting this particular family permit? Obviously it wouldn't be true if I say I'm entering as a visitor planning on leaving.


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## Jrge (Mar 22, 2011)

gmjk said:


> Re-reading the EEA2 form, it says the applicant can apply from within the country, leading to a new question: will I, a Canadian living in France, be able to enter the country with the intent of getting this particular family permit? Obviously it wouldn't be true if I say I'm entering as a visitor planning on leaving.


Hi,

I strongly suggest you apply for the EEA-Family Permit under Surinder Singh. It only takes a couple of weeks, it is free and you only have to send:

* Marriage Certificate (In English)
* A Certified copy of your husbands passport
* Pay slips, contract(s) of employment of your husband to show he was a worker in France (Tax returns could be a bonus)
* Your Original passport
* Passport photos as per requirements
* A cover letter where your husband indicates that you are coming to reunite with him
* Lease/Tenancy agreement(s), Insurance Policies, etc; showing both of your names
*NOTE: At your discretion, more supporting documents can be sent. 

This should be plain, simple and free!

Think of applying for your EEA2-RC later, get in the UK with the proper documents to avoid unpleasant and unnecessary delays.

Animo
(Cheers)


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## gmjk (Sep 3, 2012)

Jrge said:


> Hi,
> 
> I strongly suggest you apply for the EEA-Family Permit under Surinder Singh. It only takes a couple of weeks, it is free and you only have to send:
> 
> ...


Thanks very much for the info, you're fantastic. I can't believe that after the hassle of collecting so many documents, trying to wrap my head around how to prove that my husband of 3 years and I have met, trying to afford the whole process, and no hint of this on the UKBA website (other than the implication that it's just not quite proper) that it's so simple.

Forgive me for sounding dim - my brain really is melting after pouring through so many documents. So I can simply hop on the Eurostar over to London with my Canadian passport and no tourist visa, see my man, settle into our apartment, and then apply for all the paperwork? That'd really be a dream come true.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

gmjk said:


> Hello all,
> I'm new to the forum but finding searching through has been very helpful. Now I'm looking for some advice (hold on to your hats, it's a bit of a read):
> 
> My husband has British Citizenship and we want to move to the UK. After advice from a poster on another form, I'm considering entering the UK under the 'Surinder Singh' clause, as opposed to going through the process of obtaining a spouse visa. Here's the background:
> ...


Your situation can make it tricky for you to apply for EEA family permit under the Surinder Singh rule, as your husband has already left France and has returned to UK. Normally, you apply for EEA permit while you are both outside UK and planning to return together. As things stand, at the point of application, your husband is no longer exercising economic treaty rights in France. I am not sure if you can apply based on his recent work history in France. I suppose if he has only very recently gone to UK, you could still apply as though he was still in France and submit evidence of his job, without stating he has now left. 

To apply under Surinder Singh rule, you must enter on EEA family permit issued under the rule, and cannot just apply for residence card after travelling to UK. In any case you must act quickly, because the longer you leave it, the more difficult it will become to show he is still exercising economic treaty rights in France.


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## Jrge (Mar 22, 2011)

Joppa said:


> Your situation can make it tricky for you to apply for EEA family permit under the Surinder Singh rule, as your husband has already left France and has returned to UK. Normally, you apply for EEA permit while you are both outside UK and planning to return together. As things stand, at the point of application, your husband is no longer exercising economic treaty rights in France. I am not sure if you can apply based on his recent work history in France. I suppose if he has only very recently gone to UK, you could still apply as though he was still in France and submit evidence of his job, without stating he has now left.
> 
> To apply under Surinder Singh rule, you must enter on EEA family permit issued under the rule, and cannot just apply for residence card after travelling to UK. In any case you must act quickly, because the longer you leave it, the more difficult it will become to show he is still exercising economic treaty rights in France.


Hi,

While OP needs to rush, just out of curiosity, shouldn't the 90 days rule apply in this case? 

Animo
(Cheers)


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## Jrge (Mar 22, 2011)

gmjk said:


> Thanks very much for the info, you're fantastic. I can't believe that after the hassle of collecting so many documents, trying to wrap my head around how to prove that my husband of 3 years and I have met, trying to afford the whole process, and no hint of this on the UKBA website (other than the implication that it's just not quite proper) that it's so simple.


Please refer to: The Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006



gmjk said:


> Forgive me for sounding dim - my brain really is melting after pouring through so many documents. So I can simply hop on the Eurostar over to London with my Canadian passport and no tourist visa, see my man, settle into our apartment, and then apply for all the paperwork? That'd really be a dream come true.


While you rightfully could do that, I -again- strongly suggest to enter the UK with your EEA-Family Permit.

Reasons: can apply for NiNo right away, open bank accounts, apply for jobs, accept employment, should I continue? 

Animo
(Cheers)


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Jrge said:


> Hi,
> 
> While OP needs to rush, just out of curiosity, shouldn't the 90 days rule apply in this case?


On-re-reading the rules, it seems the OP can still apply even after her husband has left France for UK.


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## gmjk (Sep 3, 2012)

Sorry Jrge, I think I was confused by your statement: 


> Think of applying for your EEA2-RC later, get in the UK with the proper documents to avoid unpleasant and unnecessary delays.


I thought you were saying it was _better_ to apply later, when I arrived.

Thanks so much to both of you. I had come across the information Jrge links to, which states that 



> (2) The conditions are that—
> (a)the United Kingdom national is residing in an EEA State as a worker or self-employed person or was so residing before returning to the United Kingdom; and
> (b)if the family member of the United Kingdom national is his spouse or civil partner, the parties are living together in the EEA State or had entered into the marriage or civil partnership and were living together in that State before the United Kingdom national returned to the United Kingdom.


So the first implies that he can have returned to the UK. As to the second, yes we are spouses, yes we entered into the marriage before my husband returned to the UK.

But the million dollar question, is it possible for me to apply from the UK? I've read that it can take weeks or months for the paperwork to come through. It's better for us financially to be living in the same city even if it means I can't start working for a few months, and I can't really tell my landlord in France I need to give a one, or two, or three month notice but I'm not sure what. On top of all that, you know, I'd like to live with my husband!

Thanks again for the help.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

gmjk said:


> Sorry Jrge, I think I was confused by your statement:
> 
> I thought you were saying it was _better_ to apply later, when I arrived.
> 
> ...


Because of the special character of Surinder Singh rule, you are strongly urged to apply for EEA family permit before attempting to travel to UK. The new VAF5 form, when issued, will have a special section for those coming under Surinder Singh rule, which depends on your husband having exercised economic treaty rights in France, which is easier to verify in France than in UK. It also avoids any possible hassle at the UK border.


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## Jrge (Mar 22, 2011)

gmjk said:


> Sorry Jrge, I think I was confused by your statement:
> 
> I thought you were saying it was _better_ to apply later, when I arrived.
> 
> ...


Hi,

I meant for you to apply for the EEA2 - Residence Card *after *you had arrived to the UK. 

There are two separate steps you should follow:

*1) EEA-Family Permit (only can be obtained outside the UK):* Allows you to enter the UK, and carry on with your life without restrictions. Trust me, you might want to land in the UK with the right foot. I personally did that, and within a week of being there already had a National Insurance Number (NiNo), had a bank account, was registered at my local GP and was already being interviewed for employment. 


*2) EEA2- Residence Card (can be obtained inside the UK):* For as long as, your spouse exercises Treaty rights in the UK, you will be able to obtain this RC which will be good for 5 years.

You are in a very privileged position, use this route wisely.

Animo
(Cheers)


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## gmjk (Sep 3, 2012)

Sorry Jrge for my misunderstanding. Based on your advice and what I've read, I will apply online for the EEA Family Permit and wait to travel to the UK until it arrives. Then apply for the EEA RC when I arrive in the UK.
Can you tell me about how long yours took? I imagine there's a broad range, but just hoping for an idea.
Thank you.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

gmjk said:


> Sorry Jrge for my misunderstanding. Based on your advice and what I've read, I will apply online for the EEA Family Permit and wait to travel to the UK until it arrives. Then apply for the EEA RC when I arrive in the UK.
> Can you tell me about how long yours took? I imagine there's a broad range, but just hoping for an idea.


Latest experience suggests around 6 months. People getting their residence card now applied way back in February or March.


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## Jrge (Mar 22, 2011)

gmjk said:


> Sorry Jrge for my misunderstanding. Based on your advice and what I've read, I will apply online for the EEA Family Permit and wait to travel to the UK until it arrives. Then apply for the EEA RC when I arrive in the UK.
> Can you tell me about how long yours took? I imagine there's a broad range, but just hoping for an idea.
> Thank you.


Hi,

No worries, you must be overwhelmed with all this, eh?

EEA- Family permits take an average of 2-3 weeks. However, as Joppa mentions, RC are taking the whole 6 months. That's why going to the UK with a document that allows you to carry on with your life is priceless and extremely necessary. 

Print the EEA-Family Permit form and mock it. Try to answer it, and if you get stuck - if you do- come to us. 

In the next few days, I will send you a template of the cover letter your husband needs to write, and it must be included with your EEA-Family Permit supporting documents.

Animo
(Cheers)


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## gmjk (Sep 3, 2012)

Yes, it's certainly overwhelming, it would have saved us so much trouble to know about this option months ago. Ah well, nothing can be done about it now I guess.
I have come accross a few things:
- French businesses generally require one month's notice, and are usually closed in August - like the one I was working at. My husband's plan was to move in August (which he did) and that I would join him the next month. Anyway I finished work at the start of August. Do I say I'm 'unemployed' or 'supported by my spouse'? I am unemployed, because I quit, but I am supported by my spouse, because he's working.
Thanks.


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## Jrge (Mar 22, 2011)

gmjk said:


> Yes, it's certainly overwhelming, it would have saved us so much trouble to know about this option months ago. Ah well, nothing can be done about it now I guess.
> I have come accross a few things:
> - French businesses generally require one month's notice, and are usually closed in August - like the one I was working at. My husband's plan was to move in August (which he did) and that I would join him the next month. Anyway I finished work at the start of August. Do I say I'm 'unemployed' or 'supported by my spouse'? I am unemployed, because I quit, but I am supported by my spouse, because he's working.
> Thanks.


Hi,

If you are currently unemployed, then that's what you need to put on the application. If given the option, briefly indicate your husband is currently supporting you.

It is very, very important - if not extremely imperative- that you gather/produce sufficient evidence to show that your husband was employed in France for "X" amount of time.

We need to make sure your application is bulletproof.

Animo
(Cheers)


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## gmjk (Sep 3, 2012)

Thank you. 
When it comes to the "Other information you wish to be considered" part, what's the best thing to put here? Something personal about wanting to go to the UK?
Anything else that could trip me up on here? Filling these forms out leaves me a nervous wreck.

EDITED TO ADD: I see that "Please See Enclosed Supporting Documents" is suggested.

Also, for my husband, I have employments contracts and payslips since our arrival in France.


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## gmjk (Sep 3, 2012)

Three more questions: 
- Where it requests that "Evidence of your sponsor’s employment or other economic activity, e.g. payslips, details of receipt of state benefits, details of their studies in the UK, student identity card" be included as supporting documents, will it be best for me to include the French payslips and contracts then? Or his current UK job details? He has just started a job and not yet receieved a payslip.
- I see nothing requiring translation of documents. Am I being blissfully ignorant?
- For nearly all French paperwork a photo booth photo sufficies. I imagine I should head to a UK Embassy approved lab for these photos?


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## Jrge (Mar 22, 2011)

gmjk said:


> Thank you.
> When it comes to the "Other information you wish to be considered" part, what's the best thing to put here? Something personal about wanting to go to the UK?
> Anything else that could trip me up on here? Filling these forms out leaves me a nervous wreck.
> 
> ...


Hi,

Try to photocopy his payslips and see how many you can fit in a sheet of paper. In your case, I find useful sending all the payslips + contracts in a sequence.



gmjk said:


> Three more questions:
> - Where it requests that "Evidence of your sponsor’s employment or other economic activity, e.g. payslips, details of receipt of state benefits, details of their studies in the UK, student identity card" be included as supporting documents, *will it be best for me to include the French payslips and contracts then*? Or his current UK job details? He has just started a job and not yet receieved a payslip.
> - I see nothing requiring translation of documents. Am I being blissfully ignorant?
> - For nearly all French paperwork a photo booth photo sufficies. I imagine I should head to a UK Embassy approved lab for these photos?


Yes, they are referring to his economic activity in France, and documents need to be in English (It is clearly indicated at the top/beginning of the form).

In terms of the passport style photos, just follow this:http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/applicationforms/visa-photo-guidance.pdf

Please take a healthy break per every 30 minutes you spent working on the form. 

Animo
(Cheers)


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## gmjk (Sep 3, 2012)

Hello everyone,
I wanted to thank you again for your help.
I had my appointment this morning, and thought I'd feel calm afterwards. Well, I'm ten times as stressed out! Everyone working there was, of course, French, and it just reminded me why I need to get out of this country.

a) My passport has a small amount of water damage on one page. I have pointed this out every time I go through customs/border control: travelling to the US, to Canada, throughout Europe, flying into Amsterdam from North America, etc. The person working usually shrugs and stamps the passport. I even went to the Canadian embassy in France and was told that since the page with my information on it (can't remember what it's called) was untouched there was no need to get a new passport, and it didn't even meet their specifications for 'damaged'.
However, when the woman at the Worldbridge office looked through it, she rolled her eyes (of course) and started asking me about it. After a very French deep sigh that led me to just barely refrain from rolling my own eyes, said she was obligated to note that it was damaged. On my receipt of application she wrote:
'SHE HAS A DAMADGE (sic) PASSPORT AND SHE INISIST IN APPLY (sic)'
Now I'm quite terrified.
On top of that, I spent thirty euros going to three different photo places and got three sets of photos, just in case. I went exactly by the specifications set out in UKBA guides for photos. One photo was on a grey background, two on off-white backgrounds. When I showed her my photo, she asked if I had another. I showed her the other two. "NON!" she said. "The background must be clear" - clair. As in white. This goes against what I have read. Now, if that's what the people at the Worldbridge office demand, there must a reason. But I had to pay 5 euros for a woman in the office to take a photo. I'm mostly frustrated by that, but also nervous, but that's my general mood right now.

Anyway, since I am in full on panic mode, I have a question. If this request if refused due to my 'damaged' passport, what are my options? I could get a new passport and re-apply, but that adds another three-ish weeks (for this application to come back) plus a month (to get a new passport and re-apply) to my time here. My husband makes enough that I will not need to work right away in the UK, it doesn't matter if it takes 6 months for my UK residence card to arrive. Will I now be denied entry into UK if this EEA permit application is denied?

Sorry for the freakout. I am just so stressed and tired of dealing with French office workers and all I want to do is see my husband.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

gmjk said:


> Hello everyone,
> I wanted to thank you again for your help.
> I had my appointment this morning, and thought I'd feel calm afterwards. Well, I'm ten times as stressed out! Everyone working there was, of course, French, and it just reminded me why I need to get out of this country.
> 
> ...


Decision will be made by UKBA, not WorldBridge. If they refuse you on account of damaged passport (they tend to be stricter on the condition of the passport than other countries), you have no choice but to get a new passport and re-apply. There is always a risk trying to enter UK under EU rule without the family permit, as there's a danger of being turned away at the border.


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## gmjk (Sep 3, 2012)

Joppa said:


> Decision will be made by UKBA, not WorldBridge. If they refuse you on account of damaged passport (they tend to be stricter on the condition of the passport than other countries), you have no choice but to get a new passport and re-apply. There is always a risk trying to enter UK under EU rule without the family permit, as there's a danger of being turned away at the border.


I do understand that Worldbridge just serves as a middle man. It was just unsettling.

Is there any good in trying to cancel the current application as soon as possible and apply for a new passport, do avoid waiting three weeks just to have to do that?


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

gmjk said:


> I do understand that Worldbridge just serves as a middle man. It was just unsettling.
> 
> Is there any good in trying to cancel the current application as soon as possible and apply for a new passport, do avoid waiting three weeks just to have to do that?


It's your call. There is always a chance that your permit will be issued. But I'd have thought that a damaged passport will always raise an eyebrow at UK border or when applying for another visa, so getting a new one may well be the best solution long-term.


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## gmjk (Sep 3, 2012)

Joppa said:


> It's your call. There is always a chance that your permit will be issued. But I'd have thought that a damaged passport will always raise an eyebrow at UK border or when applying for another visa, so getting a new one may well be the best solution long-term.


I just cancelled the application. As you say, I may be turned away at the border anyway. Of course, "cancelling" the application through Worldbridge, as I found out, actually means it could be 10 days before I see my original passport and other documents again, so at this point 1 week for my documents to return + 3 weeks for new passport + up to 3 weeks for EEA permit means another two months here. I just want to be home, I am feeling quite defeated.


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## Jrge (Mar 22, 2011)

gmjk said:


> I do understand that Worldbridge just serves as a middle man. It was just unsettling.
> 
> Is there any good in trying to cancel the current application as soon as possible and apply for a new passport, do avoid waiting three weeks just to have to do that?


Hi,

I'm sorry to hear about your unpleasant moment with the middleman. Personally, I'll gamble it out and let the application go its due course. 

Sadly, at the Embassies they only care about the biometric page, but border officers care about that and much more. 

If your EEA-FP is denied under the excuse of a water damaged passport book (which rightfully UKBA can), then we will go on a complete different route.

Cheer up! you have some packing to do!

Animo
(Cheers)


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## noyh (Apr 23, 2013)

gmjk said:


> - My husband and I were both born in Canada. He also has British citizenship and a British passport. Over two years ago we moved to France to live, and have both been working - I was able to work because of his UK citizenship. It was a bit of pain to get the permit, but not expensive - just standard French bureaucracy. We decided we wanted to move to London, and he accepted a job offer in the UK a month ago and moved over there last week to set up residency. My intention was to apply for a UK visa as the spouse of a UK citizen.


I'm a Canadian living in France with my husband who is British. He is here on a 3 year contract with an international organization and I have a dependent visa, which doesn't allow me to work, but I really want to work!! I have my own media production company in Canada and have already had interest in providing these services her, and would be a shame if I couldn't do so here.

My question is how you were able to work based on your husband's UK citizenship? Can I do the same?? Do I have any options at all???

Thanks very much for any replies!!


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## Jrge (Mar 22, 2011)

Hi,


noyh said:


> I'm a Canadian living in France with my husband who is British. He is here on a 3 year contract with an international organization and I have a dependent visa, which doesn't allow me to work, but I really want to work!! I have my own media production company in Canada and have already had interest in providing these services her, and would be a shame if I couldn't do so here.
> 
> My question is how you were able to work based on your husband's UK citizenship? Can I do the same?? Do I have any options at all???
> 
> Thanks very much for any replies!!


Of course you can! You are entitled to the same rights your husband has as EU-National.

There are a few members living in France and have more experience on this than me, or Maybe Joppa will have some guidelines to share. But, sure you can!

Animo
(Cheers)


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## noyh (Apr 23, 2013)

*Thank you!*

Wow - that is great news!! Thanks so much for your reply! If you happen to know a source in English that I can get all the details, I would be SO grateful! But thank you anyway!


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## Bonnie-Bonnie (Aug 30, 2013)

Jrge said:


> Hi,
> 
> I strongly suggest you apply for the EEA-Family Permit under Surinder Singh. It only takes a couple of weeks, it is free and you only have to send:
> 
> ...


To clarify, is the lease/tenancy you mention from France or for the UK?

My fiancée and I plan to live together in France but she doesn't arrive here for a month due to work and so I have to find an apartment for us both and sign the lease by myself. Any advice on a situation like this? I'm only here for a year for university and I don't want to have to get a separate apartment just to prove we live together when she will be living with me anyway.


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