# How are illegal Brits going to be caught



## Melosine (Apr 28, 2013)

What is the reality of those living under the radar actually getting caught if they don't leave Spain?
Met some the other day. .They drive a Spanish car, have had a local doctor for years but income tax
and driving licence via UK and with the benefits therein.
Unless Hacienda check tax returns against TIE number assume only a road check for an infringement or denouncement.Will catch them out
Plus what is to stop anyone from returning here, just staying providing they have the most important thing A Spanish health card
With tabloid media scaremongering am interested


----------



## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Not sure how, without registration you can have a Spanish health card??
Personally, sound vindictive, but I hope they do get caught and thrown out....


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

If they have a TIE and a health card, they must have residency surely? They will eventually run into a police check while driving, and be fined for not having a Spanish licence. And the tax authorities will catch up with them one day - I know someone who just had a letter about an irregularity from 2016.


----------



## blondebob (Aug 16, 2019)

Post is nonsensical imo....... " _Hacienda check tax returns against TIE number assume only a road check for an infringement or denouncement.Will catch them out_" How can you live under this so called radar if they have a TIE?
But I wouldn't lose sleep over what someone I don't known never met and unlikely to ever meet in say Benidorm or Alicante choose how to live their life........simply as Nowt I can do about it


----------



## Melosine (Apr 28, 2013)

Megsmum said:


> Not sure how, without registration you can have a Spanish health card??
> Personally, sound vindictive, but I hope they do get caught and thrown out....


Years ago holiday home owners were openly encouraged to sign on Padron as it gave each authority more Government money. In doing so a doctor was allocated.
A health card has never been proof of residency only green card issued when signing on foreigners register.
Coup.e have neither green card nor TIE


----------



## Melosine (Apr 28, 2013)

blondebob said:


> Post is nonsensical imo....... " _Hacienda check tax returns against TIE number assume only a road check for an infringement or denouncement.Will catch them out_" How can you live under this so called radar if they have a TIE?
> But I wouldn't lose sleep over what someone I don't known never met and unlikely to ever meet in say Benidorm or Alicante choose how to live their life........simply as Nowt I can do about it


Where did I mention couple had TIE. 
Please read posts properly before replying so ignorantly.


----------



## Melosine (Apr 28, 2013)

So assume then none on this thread know


----------



## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Melosine said:


> What is the reality of those living under the radar actually getting caught if they don't leave Spain?
> Met some the other day. .They drive a Spanish car, have had a local doctor for years but income tax
> and driving licence via UK and with the benefits therein.
> *Unless Hacienda check tax returns against TIE number* assume only a road check for an infringement or denouncement.Will catch them out
> ...





Melosine said:


> Years ago holiday home owners were openly encouraged to sign on Padron as it gave each authority more Government money. In doing so a doctor was allocated.
> A health card has never been proof of residency only green card issued when signing on foreigners register.
> Coup.e have neither green card nor TIE


Not in my area.. padrón proves nothing, in fact checks are now done to see who is on the padrón. I think things have probably moved on a bit. You mentioned TIE numbers. Can't have a TIE without residency or done form of health care. I'm sure these people will get caught eventually, hopefully sooner than later . Can't see how anyone can get away with in in the long term but I suppose in the same way other illegal immigrants do...


----------



## blondebob (Aug 16, 2019)

Melosine said:


> Where did I mention couple had TIE.
> Please read posts properly before replying so ignorantly.


Erhhhh in your statement I quoted in my post..........how is my reply ignorant or inaccurate? Please explain yourself

" _Hacienda check tax returns against *TIE *number assume only a road check for an infringement or denouncement.Will catch them out_"


----------



## yevlondon (Jul 8, 2020)

this is hilarious. you write "TIE" in your post then say no you did not
no such thing as TIE number. tie is tarjeta. NIE is the number.


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Melosine said:


> Where did I mention couple had TIE.
> Please read posts properly before replying so ignorantly.


You actually said "Unless Hacienda check tax returns against TIE number ..."

Or maybe it was a typo and you meant NIE? You should proofread before pressing Post!


----------



## Alf Tupper (Jun 23, 2018)

yevlondon said:


> this is hilarious. you write "TIE" in your post then say no you did not
> no such thing as TIE number. tie is tarjeta. NIE is the number.


There are actually 3 sets of numbers on a T.I.E. one of which is the N.I.E number.


----------



## yevlondon (Jul 8, 2020)

Alf Tupper said:


> There are actually 3 sets of numbers on a T.I.E. one of which is the N.I.E number.


you missed the point
if you have TIE, you have residency. so no problems ....


----------



## yevlondon (Jul 8, 2020)

and while TIE has several numbers on it, "TIE number" is not a "thing". no one askes you for your "TIE number". NIE numbers are widely used and referred to. some of the numbers on TIE are used in other contexts, as numero de soporte etc. but it is not a widely used expression.


----------



## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

I suspect OP made a genuine error...let's cut a bit of slack


----------



## yevlondon (Jul 8, 2020)

i would, if not for this attitude


----------



## blondebob (Aug 16, 2019)

Megsmum said:


> I suspect OP made a genuine error...let's cut a bit of slack


Would agree.....but you weren't called "ignorant" or told to read posts "correctly"


----------



## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

blondebob said:


> Would agree.....but you weren't called "ignorant" or told to read posts "correctly"


I agree. Hopefully op will pop on and say something x


----------



## Melosine (Apr 28, 2013)

Megsmum said:


> Not in my area.. padrón proves nothing, in fact checks are now done to see who is on the padrón. I think things have probably moved on a bit. You mentioned TIE numbers. Can't have a TIE without residency or done form of health care. I'm sure these people will get caught eventually, hopefully sooner than later . Can't see how anyone can get away with in in the long term but I suppose in the same way other illegal immigrants do...


"Not in my area", not sure where in Spain you live, Megsmum, but certainly encouraged in Almeria and Murcia that is exactly what happened in the past and that is why it is so difficult to give advice. No two regions or even neighbouring municipalities share same rule
Totally agree once signed on Padron means nothing except to check every so many years one is in residence 
Only mentoned TIE in querying whether Hacienda would check against tax returns.


----------



## Melosine (Apr 28, 2013)

blondebob said:


> Erhhhh in your statement I quoted in my post..........how is my reply ignorant or inaccurate? Please explain yourself
> 
> " _Hacienda check tax returns against *TIE *number assume only a road check for an infringement or denouncement.Will catch them out_"


How typical, you removed the sarcastic bit # post is nonsensical imo#


Alcalaina said:


> You actually said "Unless Hacienda check tax returns against TIE number ..."
> 
> Or maybe it was a typo and you meant NIE? You should proofread before pressing Post!


NO, I meant TIE .
NIE doesn't prove you are a permanent resident or tax resident. Permanente Green Card /TIE does because this number I have to ALSO supply when filing tax return now
Maybe this hasn't happened in your areas yet but it does in mine. So no need to cut me ANY SLACK.
I asked a simple question but could it be alcoholic beverages for lunch have fogged the brain and made some of you unnecessarily techie.


yevlondon said:


> you missed the point
> if you have TIE, you have residency. so no problems ....


But the outlet I mentioned DONT, otherwise I wouldn't have made the post.


----------



## yevlondon (Jul 8, 2020)

you are making no sense. if a person has no TIE, then HOW would Hacienda "check" anything against "TIE number"? anyway.... i have better things to do than this.


----------



## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

But if they have a TIE then they're legal. Do you mean their NIE number ? 
At the end of the day... It's not worth getting annoyed, there's always people breaking laws. I'm sure once Covid restrictions have gone, and things settle down, more checks will be done, eventually they'll get caught . I'm supposing the only way for definite is to denounce!


----------



## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

blondebob said:


> Post is nonsensical imo....... " _Hacienda check tax returns against TIE number assume only a road check for an infringement or denouncement.Will catch them out_" How can you live under this so called radar if they have a TIE?
> But I wouldn't lose sleep over what someone I don't known never met and unlikely to ever meet in say Benidorm or Alicante choose how to live their life........simply as Nowt I can do about it





Melosine said:


> *How typical, you removed the sarcastic bit # post is nonsensical imo#*
> 
> NO, I meant TIE .
> NIE doesn't prove you are a permanent resident or tax resident. Permanente Green Card /TIE does because this number I have to ALSO supply when filing tax return now
> ...


Err no he didn't 

Ok I'm out nothing makes sense.


----------



## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

TBH you shouldn't be concerned about what others do. Their actions ( being illegal) wont affect you in any direct sense so it just sounds a bit vindicative and pointless.


----------



## xicoalc (Apr 20, 2010)

Oh i love it when things get active and debatable!

As others have said, a nie number is nothing. Just a fiscal reference that anyone can get from any nationality without even visiting Spain. 

A TIE means residency so no problems. 

Padron: its illegal to be on the padron if you're not resident but being on it doesn't mean you are legally resident. It is true that some areas used to be more lenient towards allowing people to register but that was down to the local administration at the time. Things now are tighter. I have a friend who is totally legal amd indeed owns a business employing several people but was asked recently to prove his status to remain on padron. In fact all foreigners on the padron have to confirm status (at least officially) every few years.

Health cards were sometimes issued temporarily but at the end lf the day, anyone who is on padron, with health card and not legally resident are breaking the law and, in my opinion deserve what surely will come. 

When i came to spain, everything was papers and down to me to prove things as different departments were not linked. Now, anyone with a digital certificate or [email protected] will see how much spain has come alone and data is cross linked between departments
Technology is being implemented. With just one password I can view health records, tax records, driving licence records, car ownership records, padron info, catastral records and much more. 

So, anyone living here illegally may get away with it but one day. Something will crop up... A speeding ticket, a tax check, the health service routinely checking entitlement.. Whatever it may be... And then questions will be asked.

Anyone who was here before brexit had ample time to sort their affairs. The rest of us, and thankfully the overwhelming majority are registered, pay our dues and have madr huge efforts to do things right. Those who haven't 

. Well, as megsmum said, i have no sympathy and hope they do get caught. Why should i have to wait longer if one day I need an operation hust because others who are dodging the system are draining the resources?


----------



## ksjazzguitar (Dec 22, 2010)

@Melosine 

OK, even if we ignore the question of legality and morality, why would you want to live like this?

I would be in constant fear that I was going to be caught somewhere and locked up until I am escorted on my flight home? I don't know the procedure for illegal immigrants in Spain, but I don't imagine they say, "Hey, we just caught you living illegally for years, breaking our laws, and trying to be sneaky about it, so we're going to trust you and release you to get your affairs in order and trust that you'll leave the country within a week." No, I imagine I'd be locked up, maybe taken in front of a judge for a pro forma hearing, then escorted out of the country. They aren't going to go pack up my apartment for me. All that stuff if just going to be claimed by the landlord, I assume. All my clothes, old photos, furniture, computer and laptops, my antique jazz guitar - everything is gone. I would get repatriated to the US with only what I have in my pockets. I assume that I'd be banned from reentering Spain (maybe the EU) for a considerable amount of time so tough luck getting my stuff back, unless I had the nicest landlord in history.

Why would I want to live that life? Sure, maybe when I was 20 and had nothing and was more Bohemian in my outlook. It reminds my of when I was young and tried to get away without getting auto insurance - I lived in constant low-level fear. For what you're proposing - multiply that by 10,000. Sure, I have the Sword of Damocles swinging over my head, and maybe I can fool myself into ignoring it for a while, but it is still there and may yet fall when I least expect it. Given enough time, it _will_ fall. You can only play Russian Roulette for so long until the law of averages catches up to you.

Who needs that kind of stress? Just suck up, acknowledge the difficult situation you are in, and try to find a reasonable solution.

I also find it a little funny - one of the reason Brits voted for Brexit was dislike of _legal_ immigration. You are trying to seek out help for _illegal_ immigration. I don't know what you thoughts on Brexit are and I'm not fishing for them - I just thought there was some irony there.


----------



## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Did some of you report benefit cheats when living in the UK  Enjoy life, if you are legal why worry that some are illegal, just congratulate yourself that you can sleep at night.


----------



## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Regarding the UK income tax, it's perfectly possible for people to be living in Spain and not declare UK income (such as from renting out property in the UK). It doesn't really matter whether they are Spanish residents or not, they are still evading tax by not declaring overseas income. 

One way they might be caught is that 5 or so years ago many countries signed an international agreement to share bank account details.






Common Reporting Standard - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





It used to be the case that the Spanish govenment could not look into your UK bank account without first asking permission. Now they don't have to. They can just log in and look. Soon after this agreement came into effect, all UK banks asked their account holders to update their details and state in which country they are resident. So if someone has told their UK bank they are living in Spain that data can be sent to Hacienda and they can automatically cross-reference with people living in Spain. Of course if they haven't told their bank they are living in Spain they might get away with it, but they have also commited another offence. 

The other problem they have is getting the money from the UK into Spain regularly, without setting off alarm bells. Unless they take out cash in the UK and bring it over to Spain themselves, they have to do it electronically and this requires them to either have some kind of bank account in Spain or use UK bank cards in Spain (with the associated crap exchange rate and additional charges). Either of which might trigger something.

Again they might get away with it, but I suspect a huge amount of money is being invested into developing tech gloabally that will eventually catch people out. The issue then becomes whether Hacienda thinks it is worth the time and effort pursuing particular individuals.


----------



## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

ksjazzguitar said:


> ...
> I also find it a little funny - one of the reason Brits voted for Brexit was dislike of _legal_ immigration. You are trying to seek out help for _illegal_ immigration. I don't know what you thoughts on Brexit are and I'm not fishing for them - I just thought there was some irony there.


It's probably worth starting a separate thread if you are interested. I practically gave up on this forum when a few posters decided to make every thread on here about Brexit. It's a subject that tends to destroy threads very quickly


----------



## ksjazzguitar (Dec 22, 2010)

Yeah, I hesitated to bring it up. I don't want to start a Brexit discussion. I just found the irony mildly curious.


----------



## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

ksjazzguitar said:


> I don't know the procedure for illegal immigrants in Spain, but I don't imagine they say, "Hey, we just caught you living illegally for years, breaking our laws, and trying to be sneaky about it, so we're going to trust you and release you to get your affairs in order and trust that you'll leave the country within a week."


While I agree with your general point this is the EU. An illegal alien is most likely going to get a piece of paper asking them to kindly leave the country in the next week or so. If they fail to the next time they're picked up they'll likely get a second piece of paper inviting them to leave and so on.

It takes a lot to be forcibly deported.


----------



## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

The people in the OPs post are of more interest to the authorities for tax fraud / evasion and for driving without a valid licence. Those types of "crimes" are more common in Spain amongst the native population, than in the expat community so the fact that they are British immigrants would be secondary anyway.


----------



## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

NickZ said:


> While I agree with your general point this is the EU. An illegal alien is most likely going to get a piece of paper asking them to kindly leave the country in the next week or so. If they fail to the next time they're picked up they'll likely get a second piece of paper inviting them to leave and so on.
> 
> It takes a lot to be forcibly deported.


Genuine question
So if here illegally from anywhere , they are not put in detention centres or repatriated simply given a piece of paper?


----------



## Melosine (Apr 28, 2013)

ksjazzguitar said:


> @Melosine
> 
> OK, even if we ignore the question of legality and morality, why would you want to live like this?
> 
> ...


Just to clarify I am living TOTALLY legally in Spain and am bemused you should believe otherwise. Neither am I stressed by those who are. 
So repeating your expression will " suck up" nothing , thank you.


----------



## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

Megsmum said:


> Genuine question
> So if here illegally from anywhere , they are not put in detention centres or repatriated simply given a piece of paper?





https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/sites/default/files/pdf/27042021-eu-strategy-voluntary-return-reintegration-com-2021-120_en.pdf





> with only about one third of people ordered to leave the EU effectively returning


That third includes people who are paid to leave. The governments giving them not just the flight home but cash to leave and even counseling .


----------



## Melosine (Apr 28, 2013)

Chopera said:


> Regarding the UK income tax, it's perfectly possible for people to be living in Spain and not declare UK income (such as from renting out property in the UK). It doesn't really matter whether they are Spanish residents or not, they are still evading tax by not declaring overseas income.
> 
> One way they might be caught is that 5 or so years ago many countries signed an international agreement to share bank account details.
> 
> ...


At last a sensible response.

I posted because of media headlines re illegal Brits in Spain and queried on how they could possibly be caught.
The two groups are.
Those totally under the radar. Pretend they live in UK so recieve all benefits who, if they live in areas encouraged by townhalls ( which are the majority) to sign on padron, thereby they have medical cards so none will know unless they die or leave Spain 
There are those who have a green card or TIE card, so consider themselves legally resident but still pretend to live in UK because having a green/ TIE card doesn't mean they are tax residents but, although free to travel as they wish and stay in Spain as long as they desire, they are NOT actually legal residents.
From replies it would appear people for reasons known only to themselves, because it has been Hacienda rule for 3 years, do not realise that the number on your green/ TIE card has to be included when you pay tax in Spain.
Therefore my question will those only ' pretending " to resident in Spain get caught out by Hacienda through constant use of TIE card


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Melosine said:


> There are those who have a green card or TIE card, so consider themselves legally resident but still pretend to live in UK because having a green/ TIE card doesn't mean they are tax residents but, although free to travel as they wish and stay in Spain as long as they desire,* they are NOT actually legal residents*.
> From replies it would appear people for reasons known only to themselves, because it has been Hacienda rule for 3 years, do not realise that the number on your green/ TIE card has to be included when you pay tax in Spain.
> Therefore my question will those only ' pretending " to resident in Spain get caught out by Hacienda through constant use of TIE card


But if they have a TIE or green card, they ARE legally resident. They can legally spend time in the UK and register with a doctor there.

And if they are "constantly using" their TIEs, what crime are they actually guilty of, apart from possibly not declaring income? Tax evasion, however deplorable, doesn't make you an illegal immigrant.


----------



## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Melosine said:


> if they live in areas encouraged by townhalls ( which are the majority) to sign on padron, thereby they have medical cards


 Being "empadronado" does not give anyone the right to a "medical card" or to health care in Spain.


----------



## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Melosine said:


> At last a sensible response.
> 
> I posted because of media headlines re illegal Brits in Spain and queried on how they could possibly be caught.
> The two groups are.
> ...



I'm sorry. But it genuinely doesn't make sense. What is this pretending... I think we all as tax payers know the system and I'm presuming, so does my gestor! I also think that the statement the "majority" of town halls encourage as I thought a few years ago there was a clamp down on this is a little steep
Can I ask a simple question, why are you concerned with Brits living here illegally? I don't like it, but I'm not bothered to s degree in do much as if it's how they want to live up to them. 
If they have a TIE card and are legally using it here, and claiming stuff from the UK I would suggest it's UK laws that a being broken and I also wonder how many you've mentioned one couple ....


----------



## Melosine (Apr 28, 2013)

Overandout said:


> Being "empadronado" does not give anyone the right to a "medical card" or to health care in Spain.


As I previously said to Megsmum I have no idea what area in Spain you live but here signing on gave visitors a health card and as we all know townhalls have their own rules


----------



## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

You seem a bit mislead. You cant get a medical card ( Sipp) by just going on padron


Melosine said:


> As I previously said to Megsmum I have no idea what area in Spain you live but here signing on gave visitors a health card and as we all know townhalls have their own rules


I think you should come clean and actually name where this place is that issues free healthcare once you sign on padron. First I have heard of that- and I am sure it must be very popular with expats who have been paying private healthcare all this time.


----------



## Melosine (Apr 28, 2013)

Megsmum said:


> I'm sorry. But it genuinely doesn't make sense. What is this pretending... I think we all as tax payers know the system and I'm presuming, so does my gestor! I also think that the statement the "majority" of town halls encourage as I thought a few years ago there was a clamp down on this is a little steep
> Can I ask a simple question, why are you concerned with Brits living here illegally? I don't like it, but I'm not bothered to s degree in do much as if it's how they want to live up to the
> If they have a TIE card and are legally using it here, and claiming stuff from the UK I would suggest it's UK laws that a being broken and I also wonder how many you've mentioned one couple ....


My question was " How are illegal Brits going to get caught " as per heading 
Am not personally concerned. 
So no pretending anything on my part. Thought I was posting a genuine question but seems not only does no-one know but , whether sherbet induced or not, the sarcasm and low wit from some of the keyboard warriors and bar room lawyers has amazed me.


----------



## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Melosine said:


> As I previously said to Megsmum I have no idea what area in Spain you live but here signing on gave visitors a health card and as we all know townhalls have their own rules


Well I suppose more to the point where do you live? Clearly where you are, immigration and illegal immigrants are not an issue if joining the padrón gives you state health care with a tarjeta de sanitario.


----------



## Melosine (Apr 28, 2013)

kaipa said:


> You seem a bit mislead. You cant get a medical card ( Sipp) by just going on padron
> 
> 
> I think you should come clean and actually name where this place is that issues free healthcare once you sign on padron. First I have heard of that- and I am sure it must be very popular with expats who have been paying private healthcare all this time.


Already mentioned the areas, so no need to "come clean" as you so succinctly put it.!
Probably doesn't happen now but certainly did when I relocated here, with thousands of other retirees, in 2006.


----------



## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Melosine said:


> My question was " How are illegal Brits going to get caught " as per heading
> Am not personally concerned.
> So no pretending anything on my part. Thought I was posting a genuine question but seems not only does no-one know but , whether sherbet induced or not, the sarcasm and low wit from some of the keyboard warriors and bar room lawyers has amazed me.


I think you need to read your posts before posting. You stated clearly 
These illegal immigrants have TIEs 
You said they are pretending to be 
And I quote 

*Those totally under the radar. Pretend they live in UK so recieve all benefits who, if they live in areas encouraged by townhalls ( which are the majority) to sign on padron, thereby they have* medical cards so none will know unless they die or leave Spain

People have not been sarcastic or had low wit. Nobody really understands what your saying


----------



## Melosine (Apr 28, 2013)

Megsmum said:


> Well I suppose more to the point where do you live? Clearly where you are, immigration and illegal immigrants are not an issue if joining the padrón gives you state health care with a tarjeta de sanitario.


Murcia and Almeria 2006 with thousands of other retirees. May have stopped by the time you relocated but doesn't mean it didnt happen and that many long stay visitors still have their cards.


----------



## Melosine (Apr 28, 2013)

Megsmum said:


> I think you need to read your posts before posting. You stated clearly
> These illegal immigrants have TIEs
> You said they are pretending to be
> And I quote
> ...


You obviously want an intense discussion !! And I am not going there as it is obvious you don't know the answer to my original question ( as per heading ) which I cannot believe neither you nor others understand. Chopera did.


----------



## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Totally confused. If people have TIEs , healthcare etc it means they are legal now even if it obtained in 2006 ( when incidentally the laws on healthcare were different and everyone got healthcare anyway). I dont think anyone understands what you are saying.


----------



## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Melosine said:


> Murcia and Almeria 2006 with thousands of other retirees. May have stopped by the time you relocated but doesn't mean it didnt happen and that many long stay visitors still have their cards.


I moved to Spain (Andalucia) in 2006 and signing on the padrón certainly didn't make us eligible for public healthcare. What we did have (for the first 2 years) were residual S1 forms from the UK, based on our NI contribution records, and with those we were able to register for healthcare and got temporary health cards, but they were strictly time limited and we had to take out private health insurance when they expired, to bridge the 8 year gap until my husband became a UK state pensioner and we could both then get new S1 forms. We had to be registered as residents before we could register those residual S1s with the INSS, though - not simply on the padrón.

I know it was possible, after that date, for people who presented their EHIC to get emergency treatment to subsequently get a temporary health card to allow them to get follow-up appointments, because I helped a friend arrange one for her daughter after the child broke her arm whilst on holiday here. The administrator at the health centre registered her on a temporary basis for one year - but only with a paper version not the proper plastic card.


----------



## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

The right of any person to healthcare depends on you being considered as either a "beneficiary" or an "insured" under the social security system. This is regulated nationally and does not depend on Town Hall's policies.


----------



## ALKB (Jan 20, 2012)

NickZ said:


> https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/sites/default/files/pdf/27042021-eu-strategy-voluntary-return-reintegration-com-2021-120_en.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This assisted return procedure is mostly aimed at getting cooperation of refused asylum seekers who have destroyed or concealed their passports, whose identities are not verifiable and/or whose countries of origin are refusing to take back their deported nationals.

Lots of refused asylum seekers feel like they are unable to return home because their families have gone into debt to finance their journey to Europe, are being pressured, would lose face/social status if they were to return home with empty hands. 

That's why there is the possibility to apply for travel cost and even a kind of start up lump sum (in some cases a bit of a business plan is needed to get this granted) so that they can get a leg up at home and don't turn up again in a few months time.

I doubt that a British national in possession of their passport and not in danger of being refused at the UK border/being denied a new British passport if they don't have a valid one, would qualify for any of that.

I think it would probably be more likely a story like the oft-quoted one of the British shop fitters who were working in Germany without being legally resident or having work permission and who were returned to the UK post haste.


----------



## xicoalc (Apr 20, 2010)

Melosine said:


> the number on your green/ TIE card has to be included when you pay tax in Spain.


The number on your TIE or green paper is your NIE. Of course you give that to do a tax return. And, as others have said, if you have a green paper or TIE then you're legally resident anyway so its not about "using it to do a tax return", if you are resident then a tax return is expected of you unless you're exempt from declaring it (earnings below a certain level and only one source of income etc) 

The only other number used on a tax return that appears on a residency document is the support number which can be used as one way of identifying you for security. This would be needed if, for example you were using a [email protected] to identify yourself to log in. A gestor may use it to gain access to your files, depending on various factors. 

Nothing more. No more numbers. TIE number is your NIE. 



Melosine said:


> As I previously said to Megsmum I have no idea what area in Spain you live but here signing on gave visitors a health card and as we all know townhalls have their own rules


Sometimes, health centres will issue a temporary health card if someone is on the padron. This is temporary and only designed to ensure they have health care whilst they are sorting out their affairs. It's sometimes done as a courtesy more than anything to new arrivals. My friends mum (Austrian) comes over for extended stays and as she is in her 80's my friend was worried incase she missed her vaccination slot at home. She asked thr health centre and they gave her a temporary SIP so that she got called for vaccination here because vaccination is a public health matter so anyone here is entitled. But these things are only temporary for reasons like this or to give someone time to get their papers sorted. They are not ever a long term health cover and will only become so when the criteria is met. Remember that free health care in Spain is based on contributions not residency in any case (with the exception of grandfather rules based on time here). 

Ive been here long enough and worked long enough to have health care for life thankfully!


----------



## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Lynn R said:


> I moved to Spain (Andalucia) in 2006 and signing on the padrón certainly didn't make us eligible for public healthcare. What we did have (for the first 2 years) were residual S1 forms from the UK, based on our NI contribution records, and with those we were able to register for healthcare and got temporary health cards, but they were strictly time limited and we had to take out private health insurance when they expired,


Why did you take out PHI? You could have signed on for state health care straight away as you were here before April 2012


----------



## MataMata (Nov 30, 2008)

xicoalc said:


> if you are resident then a tax return is expected of you unless you're exempt from declaring it (earnings below a certain level and only one source of income etc)


Regardless of level of income or from a single source (not strictly true either) everyone is supposed to do an initial return as it gets you registered in the tax system and a tax reference number, it's only after that if income remains below the thresholds then you become exempt from further returns.

Being in the system is important for two reasons.

1. If your wife/husband/partner WHY is the major source of income and you are not a taxpayer then if they die and you are not in the system you will have to address that first in order for an estate to be settled and disbursed, something which can take years even when everything is in place!

2. For those on low incomes and in the health system it's the only way they (eventually) qualify for free prescriptions, otherwise they face paying 10% forever.


----------



## ksjazzguitar (Dec 22, 2010)

Melosine said:


> Just to clarify I am living TOTALLY legally in Spain and am bemused you should believe otherwise.


Sorry for the confusion. I sometimes forget that I might be dealing with non-native English speakers. In English it is common to use the pronoun "you" in a generic sense, not just to address the person to whom you are speaking, much like they use the pronoun "on" in French, and German has some similar structures to English. It can cause confusion sometimes, but you can often tell what is meant from context - or at least you have to be careful about assuming. [The previous sentence is also a good example of the "generic you" - the "you" in that sentence is not meant to refer specifically to Melosine.]


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

xicoalc said:


> The number on your TIE or green paper is your NIE. Of course you give that to do a tax return. And, as others have said, if you have a green paper or TIE then you're legally resident anyway so its not about "using it to do a tax return", if you are resident then a tax return is expected of you unless you're exempt from declaring it (earnings below a certain level and only one source of income etc)
> 
> The only other number used on a tax return that appears on a residency document is the support number which can be used as one way of identifying you for security. This would be needed if, for example you were using a [email protected] to identify yourself to log in. A gestor may use it to gain access to your files, depending on various factors.


I did my tax return at the gestoria this morning, the first one since getting a TIE (I don't have a digital certificate). My NIE and other details are already in the database but the gestor entered a very long number that appears on the back of the TIE, starting with IMESP.... so it's not just the NIE they need.


----------



## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Alcalaina said:


> I did my tax return at the gestoria this morning, the first one since getting a TIE (I don't have a digital certificate). My NIE and other details are already in the database but the gestor entered a very long number that appears on the back of the TIE, starting with IMESP.... so it's not just the NIE they need.


Chemo brain. When are tax returns due or are you early. I thought end of June


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Megsmum said:


> Chemo brain. When are tax returns due or are you early. I thought end of June


Any time between now and the end of June. I like to get mine over and done with!


----------



## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

snikpoh said:


> Why did you take out PHI? You could have signed on for state health care straight away as you were here before April 2012


In 2008 when our residual S1s ran out, we did not have the optiion to sign on for state health care. That option for those who were resident before April 2012 was not introduced until some years later, in 2012 in fact. 






Healthcare Benefits and Health Cards - Spain - Angloinfo


Qualifying for Healthcare in SpainQualifying for healthcare through the social security systemAny person who is not affiliated with the Spanish social...




www.angloinfo.com


----------



## xicoalc (Apr 20, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> I did my tax return at the gestoria this morning, the first one since getting a TIE (I don't have a digital certificate). My NIE and other details are already in the database but the gestor entered a very long number that appears on the back of the TIE, starting with IMESP.... so it's not just the NIE they need.


Thats the machine readable data. Makes up name, nie, date of birth etc. Basically everything that appears on front but in a format machines can read. 

If you look, after the letters appears the support numbet, same as on front right top. Mine just asked for that part to verify the new card.


----------



## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Megsmum said:


> Chemo brain. When are tax returns due or are you early. I thought end of June





Megsmum said:


> Chemo brain. When are tax returns due or are you early. I thought end of June


This year they could be submitted from 7 April (we did ours online in mid April) and the deadline is 30 June.









La Campaña de la Renta 2020 empezará el 7 de abril y concluirá el 30 de junio


La Agencia Tributaria prevé iniciar la atención en oficinas desde el 2 de junio de 2021, en torno a medio mes más tarde de la fecha en que habitualmente solía iniciarse.




www.publico.es


----------



## xicoalc (Apr 20, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> Any time between now and the end of June. I like to get mine over and done with!


 me too. Done and refund issued. Woop woop


----------



## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Thanks. I will send ours off end of the week


----------



## Melosine (Apr 28, 2013)

ksjazzguitar said:


> Sorry for the confusion. I sometimes forget that I might be dealing with non-native English speakers. In English it is common to use the pronoun "you" in a generic sense, not just to address the person to whom you are speaking, much like they use the pronoun "on" in French, and German has some similar structures to English. It can cause confusion sometimes, but you can often tell what is meant from context - or at least you have to be careful about assuming. [The previous sentence is also a good example of the "generic you" - the "you" in that sentence is not meant to refer specifically to Melosine.]


Sorry for the confusion. I sometimes forget that I might be dealing with non-native English speakers. In English it is common to use the pronoun "you" in a generic sense, not just to address the person to whom you are speaking, much like they use the pronoun "on" in French, and German has some similar structures to English. It can cause confusion sometimes, but you can often tell what is meant from context - or at least you have to be careful about assuming. [The previous sentence is also a good example of the "generic you" - the "you" in that sentence is not meant to refer specifically to Melosine.]
[/QUOTE]
In English taught in UK it is not common when replying to one person and as I was obviously replying to YOU personally, and not all on this thread although they may read it,, it wasn't generic but 2nd person singular.
Anything else you take umbridge with ?


----------



## ksjazzguitar (Dec 22, 2010)

Wow, so in British English, if I ask "How do you get to the store?" you assume that I mean specifically you, melosine? Wow. They must have changed that - I spent 20 years working with people from all over Britain - they all seemed to understand exactly what that meant. They even used it themselves in colloquial speech. I specifically remember a Welsh boss loved to say, "You can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs." I never realized he was speaking _specifically to me about when I make an omelette_. Thank you so much for explaining that to me - I've been misunderstanding that for years. I just checked with my wife (a linguist) and she seems very confused by your post, but I think I'll take your word for it. If you can't trust an antagonistic, anonymous stranger on the internet, who can you trust.

This has gotten silly and I don't see anything more fruitful coming out of this thread for me. I'll have to ignore this thread to avoid letting my childish nature suck me back in.


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Love these off-topic drifts ... very entertaining. 

On a more serious note, I see Britain has started locking "illegal" Spanish and other EU citizens in detention centres, and taking away their passports, prior to deportation. Let's hope a less benign future Spanish government doesn't decide to reciprocate, the Spanish detention centres are even more disgusting than the British ones.








EU citizens detained by UK after landing without work visas


POLITICO has heard of 30 cases involving German, Greek, Italian, Romanian and Spanish nationals.




www.politico.eu


----------



## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

I read this. It sounds really frightening. Didnt they lock her up for 3 days? She was a Spanish girl returning to UK to work but hadn't papers so they basically arrested her and processed her for deportation. Can you imagine what the UK would say if things were reversed and the Brits with wrong cards were put in Sp9holding centres. [email protected]


----------



## xicoalc (Apr 20, 2010)

kaipa said:


> I read this. It sounds really frightening. Didnt they lock her up for 3 days? She was a Spanish girl returning to UK to work but hadn't papers so they basically arrested her and processed her for deportation. Can you imagine what the UK would say if things were reversed and the Brits with wrong cards were put in Sp9holding centres. [email protected]


I agree, this story shocked me too. Brits who are trying to get to Spain at the moment without the right papers, reasons etc (and I am talking about the restructions that were in place because of covid, nothing to do with brexit) are simply declined bording at the airport or turned around and sent back on arrival. To put someone in a detention place is shocking behaviour!


----------



## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

I suspect there is more to this story. Most are turned away at the border. There could be various reasons.


----------



## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Just read a link on another thread on here. The USA warns travellers to Spain that if they are refused entry Spain puts them in an immigration centre whilst they can get a flight home. Same as UK then!








COVID-19 Information







es.usembassy.gov


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Isobella said:


> Just read a link on another thread on here. The USA warns travellers to Spain that if they are refused entry Spain puts them in an immigration centre whilst they can get a flight home. Same as UK then!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is for travellers who don’t have the right COVID tests etc. Nothing to do with illegal immigration. Can’t imagine them being hauled off to a CIE somehow, they’ll get the next flight back. Any evidence of it happening?


----------



## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Isobella said:


> I suspect there is more to this story. Most are turned away at the border. There could be various reasons.


Indeed, given that it is usually the carrier who is liable for the cost of repatriating the person who doesn't meet the immigration requirements, but in the case of EU nationals in the UK, they are not breaking any law until they search for work. Airlines, ferry operators and even border control workers can't stop them from passing unless they have grounds.
In the case of the Spaniard, I guess they were keeping an eye on her because she had worked in the UK before and they suspected she would try again. The fact that they are detained though seems very harsh, surely they could simply be informed that they can only stay as a tourist. I wonder what punishment fell on the potential employers?


----------



## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

I just had a look in the Spanish press for any reports on British citizens who might have arrived in Spain trying to get work since start of this year, but there aren't any results coming up to compare. 
I guess there aren't so many British stupid enough to thimnk they want to work here like me!


----------



## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

I probably posted the wrong link because it wasn’t Covid stuff it was immigration. Will try and find it when not busy.


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Overandout said:


> I just had a look in the Spanish press for any reports on British citizens who might have arrived in Spain trying to get work since start of this year, but there aren't any results coming up to compare.
> I guess there aren't so many British stupid enough to thimnk they want to work here like me!


Not surprising, as only residents and key workers have been allowed in!


----------



## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Isobella said:


> I probably posted the wrong link because it wasn’t Covid stuff it was immigration. Will try and find it when not busy.


*Are U.S. citizens permitted to enter? No*


_Due to COVID-19 Spanish travel restrictions, U.S. citizens cannot enter Spain unless they meet very specific requirements or have already obtained special permission from the Government of Spain.  Please check the Spanish regulations carefully before attempting to travel.  If you travel to Spain and are not admitted, you will be placed in immigration detention for up to several days, until a flight on the same airline becomes available to take you back to your point of origin._
It is easier for the UK to turn EU citizens without the correct paperwork in France as there is UK border control there. When we went to Paris last sept. there were a few foreign cars turned back at the Port. A van load of Romanians in front of us were turned away. 

I would expect those not permitted to stay would be put into detention anyway in any country or they just wander off into the sunset. But some on the outrage bus again!


----------



## timwip (Feb 27, 2017)

Alcalaina said:


> This is for travellers who don’t have the right COVID tests etc. Nothing to do with illegal immigration. Can’t imagine them being hauled off to a CIE somehow, they’ll get the next flight back. Any evidence of it happening?


I can not imagine any US traveler getting to Spain without proper paperwork and PCR testing. Like you said, should a traveler arrive in Spain without the paperwork, it is the responsibility of the airline to return the traveler to the United States. As a result, airlines make sure all the ducks are in order before allowing the traveler on the airplane. As an example, in my last journey. My paperwork was checked in Austin, Tx before I was allowed to board the plane to New York. The same paperwork was checked again in New York before boarding for Madrid.


----------



## alpinist (Feb 8, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> On a more serious note, I see Britain has started locking "illegal" Spanish and other EU citizens in detention centres, and taking away their passports, prior to deportation. Let's hope a less benign future Spanish government doesn't decide to reciprocate, the Spanish detention centres are even more disgusting than the British ones.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It'll be hilarious to see the right-wing newspapers frothing at how 'unfair' this is. And it's far from impossible - it just needs a populist politician to start shouting about cracking down on all migrants and the entire state system drifts to the right to keep up (here's looking at you, Farage, Le Pen...). People only ever talk about pensioners in Spain, but as with the poor Europeans getting swept up at Heathrow I think this is likely to happen once younger people start trying to work on campsites or in hotels and bars again; some of them and their employers are bound to get things wrong with the new paperwork, giving the border staff all they need.


----------



## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Basically any UK national arriving in Spain without TIE/ green card or return flight will almost certainly receive the same treatment. So you will be taken to a place to be processed and held until they are able to send you back. Claiming you didn't know the new rules will not be an acceptable excuse. That is how the UK does it no reason Spain doesn't apply the same rules.


----------



## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

kaipa said:


> Basically any UK national arriving in Spain without TIE/ green card or return flight will almost certainly receive the same treatment. So you will be taken to a place to be processed and held until they are able to send you back. Claiming you didn't know the new rules will not be an acceptable excuse. That is how the UK does it no reason Spain doesn't apply the same rules.


Of course. If people do not have the correct paperwork and are considered illegal officials don’t let them wander off out of the airport. Some cannot be sent straight back as they do not have a return flight and due to Covid there may not be availability for days or weeks. Happens all over the world, not incorrect paperwork usually, they need a visa to work and they don’t have one.


----------



## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Isobella said:


> Of course. If people do not have the correct paperwork and are considered illegal officials don’t let them wander off out of the airport. Some cannot be sent straight back as they do not have a return flight and due to Covid there may not be availability for days or weeks. Happens all over the world, not incorrect paperwork usually, they need a visa to work and they don’t have one.


Yep. The simple task of going to the USA on holiday..an ESTA has to be filled out and you won't get on the plane if you don't have one.
Mosy airlines are very vigilant nowadays as they're responsible for passengers entering with wrong paperwork. Last year, during covid my residency etc was all checked at check in.


----------



## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

El lado oscuro del Brexit: ciudadanos europeos retenidos en centros de inmigración del Reino Unido


Decenas de viajeros comunitarios son encerrados y deportados por las nuevas leyes británicas y las restricciones por la pandemia




elpais.com


----------



## John T Savage (Apr 10, 2021)

Megsmum said:


> Yep. The simple task of going to the USA on holiday..an ESTA has to be filled out and you won't get on the plane if you don't have one.
> Mosy airlines are very vigilant nowadays as they're responsible for passengers entering with wrong paperwork. Last year, during covid my residency etc was all checked at check in.


ETIAS being introduced in 2022. 








European Travel Information Authorisation System


ETIAS will be an automated IT system created to identify security, irregular migration or high epidemic risks posed by visa-exempt visitors travelling to the Schengen States, while at the same time facilitating border crossing for the vast majority of travelers who do not pose such risks.




ec.europa.eu


----------



## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

I thought airlines were fined if they fly people in with wrong paperwork.


----------



## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

I don't think they are fined, but they are liable for the repatriation cost. 

But if someone arrives as a tourist without needing a visa, but then starts looking for a job I don't think the airline can be liable for that. 
I would image that there are now landing cards to be completed when flying between the UK and the EU where the passenger declares that they either have the correct visa, or is travelling as a tourist.
If this isn't in place yet, I would expect it to be soon as the airlines need to cover their backs.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

To get back to the original question: I’m totally legal so the topic doesn’t trouble me much (apart from mildly pissing me off that these under the radar types don’t pay any taxes while I do but then anyone who evades taxes wherever they are pisses me off).

I very much doubt that anything will happen to these people. I live a ten minute drive from our local Correos sorting office and our post can’t be delivered, Correos staff tell me our house is ‘out of the way’. It’s down a lane in a cul de sac.When we were robbed I had to give detailed directions to the police so they could rush to the scene of the crime. I’m constantly having to give my location via google to delivery drivers. If I didn’t have near neighbours I could die and slowly decay here.

It takes the police years sometimes to track down people who commit heinous crimes. Does anyone really think that snatch squads with tracker dogs will scour the Costas looking for Bert and Ethel Ramsbottom or Sid and Ada lost in the gated communities somewhere in Spain?

As yet Spain doesn’t have an equivalent to Priti Scourge of Illegal Immigrants Patel.
And this legal immigrant is thankful for that😌


----------



## Aarabhi22 (Mar 23, 2021)

blondebob said:


> Would agree.....but you weren't called "ignorant" or told to read posts "correctly"



agree


----------



## Relyat (Sep 29, 2013)

This might be the start for some of them 


https://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2021/05/19/exclusive-british-expats-warned-over-fraudulent-residency-applications-following-spate-of-arrests/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=olive%20press&fbclid=IwAR2HFzmC-IESHSuRzVopLyyI5ZOKdBBIVXJ6DO20z2jAbr2y9zBMvvd3fzU#utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss


----------



## Melosine (Apr 28, 2013)

Relyat said:


> This might be the start for some of them
> 
> 
> https://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2021/05/19/exclusive-british-expats-warned-over-fraudulent-residency-applications-following-spate-of-arrests/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=olive%20press&fbclid=IwAR2HFzmC-IESHSuRzVopLyyI5ZOKdBBIVXJ6DO20z2jAbr2y9zBMvvd3fzU#utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss


Maybe unlike some who want to believe, otherwise and out posts as ' nonsensical' , Spanish authorities ARE getting their act together. 
Everytime a new form is issued now, by any country, technology looks to reference with older data.


----------



## fortrose52 (Nov 29, 2018)

You also will have to fill in form, from police station, with fees, for your friends and families to visit you in future to your resident or holiday home. Send it to them so that they can produce it on arrival. Carta de Invitacion


----------



## Relyat (Sep 29, 2013)

See the other thread, already covered


----------



## Aarabhi22 (Mar 23, 2021)

i want more details about it


----------



## Aarabhi22 (Mar 23, 2021)

i have a question


----------



## Aarabhi22 (Mar 23, 2021)

i want more details


----------



## fatimab (May 21, 2021)

I am not sure how, without registration you can have a Spanish health card??


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

fatimab said:


> I am not sure how, without registration you can have a Spanish health card??


Some areas issue temporary health cards on proction of the EHIC.


----------

