# is anyone actually making a living in spain??



## tommy t (Aug 22, 2013)

been looking through posts on this site and others for months now and regarding work and businesses in spain everything is "doom and gloom" my question .. is anyone at all actually making a good living in Mallorca or spain?? it was again one of the top tourist destinations for the last few year so surely there must be money to be made somewhere if not then why is anyone actually living there??

we are British and considering moving to Mallorca from California and opening or buying a business but everything I read is negative, there are loads of businesses for sale surely some of them must be doing ok? 

when I moved to the states 18 years ago I was told the same thing" you wont find any work here" self employed or otherwise, but we have never been out of work at all and set up a business that's doing great but we want to be closer to family and not a $2000 12 hour flight away, and also tired off the fast pace non stop lifestyle,

so anyone out there know anything positive about Spain????


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Yes, there is a boom in tourism in the larger Canary Islands. Maybe the beginnings of a recovery, one can but hope.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

tommy t said:


> been looking through posts on this site and others for months now and regarding work and businesses in spain everything is "doom and gloom" my question .. is anyone at all actually making a good living in Mallorca or spain?? it was again one of the top tourist destinations for the last few year so surely there must be money to be made somewhere if not then why is anyone actually living there??
> 
> we are British and considering moving to Mallorca from California and opening or buying a business but everything I read is negative, there are loads of businesses for sale surely some of them must be doing ok?
> 
> ...


did the US have 26% unemployment then & did you speak the language? 


they are the two main things you have going against you here in Spain right now


yes, some of us make a living here, me included - but my business is established already - & I speak the language

a good living? I don't know - I don't have any debts but I doubt I'll ever be rich

if I lost my clients overnight though, I wouldn't get any help from the govt & that of course is a worry

the vast majority of businesses are for sale because they aren't doing well - at least that's the case here in my area

there's (at least) one bar for example, whose owners just want someone to take over the rent & the contract on the premises - they want to walk away having spent a fortune on reforming when they took out the lease just over a year ago


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

I make a living in Spain, but it's not through running a business


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

There _are_ people with money in Spain (it has the biggest gap between rich and poor of all EU countries), so if you've got something they want, I'm sure it's possible to make a very good living.

However pretty well everyone I know, Spanish or immigrant, is in debt up to their eyeballs and/or struggling to make it to the end of the month. The Brits all have their homes and businesses up for sale (except us) but there are no serious buyers around.


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

tommy t said:


> ...there are loads of businesses for sale surely some of them must be doing ok?


The clue is in your own question. Why are there lots of businesses for sale if they're all making good money? No-one I know would sell a profitable business unless it was for purely personal reasons. People sell businesses because they can't make sufficient money from them to survive. There's lots of competition and insufficient custom for many businesses to survive due to the economic contraction due to the general indebtedness of the government, banks and vast majority of the population.

When financial times get tough — large swathes of the struggling population contract their spending reserving it for essentials like food, housing utilities etc. This is why large parts of the eurozone—particularly the weaker tourist economies of the med countries are teetering on the brink of deflation—prices going down rather than up due to fierce competition for a limited spending power.

This is precisely the reason so many businesses are for sale.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Of course people make a living, but in a society which has a huge section of its population either not earning or as low wage earners* it's especially tough for new people to enter the market.* However, it has to be said the Chinese really do seem to be cornering the market on cheap clothing, pound shop style establishments and in Madrid at least it's hard to find a sweet shop outside shopping centres that is not Chinese owned. On the other hand, most people are not prepared to live the Chinese small business owner lifestyle...
Spending is down, as one would expect in a depressed economy; 20% over 6 years. I posted about this in the last post on this thread which is about the recession
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/la...-spain-how-recession-affecting-your-area.html

And this thread might be interesting for you too about people's lives in Spain
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/la-tasca/374305-stories-life-spain.html

Maybe the Camera de Comercio can give guidance about which areas are likely to be more successful?
AND look at post 32 and 33 in the FAQ's about employment here


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

Hepa said:


> Yes, there is a boom in tourism in the larger Canary Islands. Maybe the beginnings of a recovery, one can but hope.


And there's a boom in IT Outsourcing and Offshoring - that's thriving in ( the low cost area's ) Continental Europe,
where do you think all those lost jobs in the UK went to !!!

As for Online Gambling - they never had it so good - particularly in Gibraltar !!!!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Williams2 said:


> And a boom in IT Outsourcing and Offshoring is thriving in Continental Europe,
> where do you think all those lost jobs in the UK went to !!!
> 
> And Online Gambling is positively thriving in Gibraltar - they never had it so good !!!!


did any of these jobs come to Spain?

unemployment in the UK is under 7% - better than it was in Spain in 'the good times' - as compared to over 25% in Spain


Gib might be near Spain - but it's still British territory


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> did any of these jobs come to Spain?
> 
> unemployment in the UK is under 7% - better than it was in Spain in 'the good times' - as compared to over 25% in Spain
> 
> ...


They certainly did - as well as the Czech Republic, Hungary and Poland - as for the
rest my lips are sealed !!!!!!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Williams2 said:


> They certainly did - as well as the Czech Republic, Hungary and Poland - as for the
> rest my lips are sealed !!!!!!


good then - Spain needs them


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

I don't know about IT in general, but posts in the gaming industry certainly went to Gib. There do seem to be some specialised IT jobs going in Madrid


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I don't know about IT in general, but posts in the gaming industry certainly went to Gib. There do seem to be some specialised IT jobs going in Madrid


Yes your right and there are many ways to get into IT - you don't have to be
put off because you associate it with Computer Programming and such like.

For example IT Help Desk or Service Desk jobs, tend to be the entry level roles
for graduates getting their first job in IT - although I've seen people who have
changed careers to IT and thrived in it, particularly from those with customer
facing skills.

Also ( believe it or not ) many IT Service Desk Operators need a good command
of English and the working language ( even here in Spain ) would be English.
For yet again - who are the clients of these IT Help Desks and Service Desks
but American, British, Swiss and even Irish companies and financial institutions.

Even in Britain I've come across Help Desks and Service Desks where the
manager needs Operators who can speak and deal with International customers
and clients in French, Spanish, Japanese, Cantonese, etc. 

So not all the Help Desk jobs were lost to India - many jobs were retained in
Europe due to EU Data Protection laws.


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

We've been here nearly four years - I have a Government pension, which helps!! We had many plans for working when we arrived - not because we had to but because we wanted to so we had little pressure in that regard. None of our plans came to fruition though they still bubble around in my head so maybe one day when we aren't so busy. Right now I teach maths and physics GCSE (over now for the summer YES!!), we look after several holiday properties, we look after several gardens and my OH is very busy as a landscape gardener. We work nearly every day of the week but NOT TODAY - we have a day off but working tomorrow and Sunday  So yes, we do make a living here but in this heat and what we do it is hard work.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Williams2 said:


> They certainly did - as well as the Czech Republic, Hungary and Poland - as for the
> rest my lips are sealed !!!!!!


Outsourcing of IT to the Czech Republic etc? Can you post a link showing where you got that information?
Many major financial institutions in the UK outsource but to Asia, not Central and Eastern Europe. Maybe some lower skilled programming work might go to Europe. My son has an IT contracting company with contracts with City banks and financial institutions and the contracted workers are based 100% in India, obviously because they are so much cheaper than British workers and also are more skilled in niche sectors such as disaster recovery.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

I have heard of English teachers in Madrid ending up as IT consultants in companies where they originally taught English. More generally there is work around in Madrid for IT workers with native English skills, since that combination of skills are both in demand and not that common in Madrid. Of course it helps if you speak Spanish as well.


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

mrypg9 said:


> Outsourcing of IT to the Czech Republic etc? Can you post a link showing where you got that information?
> Many major financial institutions in the UK outsource but to Asia, not Central and Eastern Europe. Maybe some lower skilled programming work might go to Europe. My son has an IT contracting company with contracts with City banks and financial institutions and the contracted workers are based 100% in India, obviously because they are so much cheaper than British workers and also are more skilled in niche sectors such as disaster recovery.


As I said before many financial institutions and Government or defence
related work cannot be off shored to Asia and India due to EU Data Protection laws
not being applicable in India. And it goes without saying you wouldn't want
them being privy to defence related data.

Whereas in Spain, the Czech Republic, Poland and Hungary you can get your
workers to sign EU Data Protection laws and enforce them - that's not so in India,
unless India joins the European Union, lol.
Of course some financial companies still use Indian outsourcing companies but the
EU are getting more stringent on Data Protection laws and who has access
to financial data outside the EU.

Of course you cannot offshore MOD or MOD related work outside the United
Kingdom ( let alone rest of EU ) but one clever Outsourcing Company did identify
one low cost area in the UK where average wages and the cost of living is
lower than the rest of the UK and that area is Nairn in the Highlands of Scotland.
Therefore many of their IT Workers engaged in MOD SC Security Clearance work
were given two choices, take redundancy from their well paid jobs in the
South of England or move to Nairn on a reduced salary.

Of course the Outsourced company could be in for a rude awakening, if
Scotland votes for Independence and the British MOD up sticks and moves
their work to England, Wales or Northern Ireland.


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## tommy t (Aug 22, 2013)

thanks for all the replies everyone, I am cautious enough not to jump into buying a business without a LOT of research and see that not many of them will disclose their income or profits unless you meet them in person also I see lots of businesses that have very little if any proof of profits as I am told most people deal in cash only in spain? 

I hear what your saying about people just wanting to walk away from their businesses, I see some for sale for just 10k but that's obviously for a reason otherwise it would probably be 100k+ if it was profitable,

its a fact that some but probably very few people sell if its making good money, but we sold our business in the UK when it was making a lot of money and same with our place in the states right now its doing great but sometimes you just need a change of scenery or lifestyle, and a much shorter commute to the UK

we are actually in the Group Fitness business and I hear fitness is getting more popular in Spain (would be interested to know how popular fitness is in your areas?) so maybe that would be an option, although after doing it for 20 years its getting a bit tedious, but maybe a new place = new enthusiasm,

Maybe we will go to Mallorca for 6 months or so and maybe check out the mainland too and see what things are like as it was the 90's when I was last there and that was on a few different vacations, again thanks for the replies as any info is really appreciated


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

tommy t said:


> thanks for all the replies everyone, I am cautious enough not to jump into buying a business without a LOT of research and see that not many of them will disclose their income or profits unless you meet them in person also I see lots of businesses that have very little if any proof of profits as I am told most people deal in cash only in spain?
> 
> I hear what your saying about people just wanting to walk away from their businesses, I see some for sale for just 10k but that's obviously for a reason otherwise it would probably be 100k+ if it was profitable,
> 
> ...


not all businesses deal in cash only

I _do _deal almost entirely in cash - but I still have to provide my gestor & the tax office copies of monthly invoices for all my clients - even those who don't actually want one!!

some businesses will tell you that '' 'wink wink' we actually take twice this amount'' - maybe they do, maybe they don't

I for sure wouldn't go on a 'wink wink'


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

I used to work for one of the so-called "big 5" global consulting companies. We had a network of centres around the world including a presence in both India and Central and Eastern Europe. 

I often visited Madrid and Malaga on business. Madrid was the location of a data centre and Malaga was where a lot of programming work was outsourced to. They had a very good capability in a technology called SAP (German company).

I also visited Prague and a place a few miles outside. Our consulting office was in the Fred and Ginger building, the place outside was where the outsourced IT services were delivered from.

In the early days of outsourcing the rush was to India. A little later outsourcing included what we referred to as off-shoring but also, latterly, near-shoring. As mentioned elsewhere, data protection was one reason for being able to offer options to companies wishing to outsource, but there were many other reasons as well.

India isn't brilliant for disaster recovery skills and it's a lousy choice for disaster recovery kit, they still have trouble keeping the lights on.



mrypg9 said:


> Outsourcing of IT to the Czech Republic etc? Can you post a link showing where you got that information?
> Many major financial institutions in the UK outsource but to Asia, not Central and Eastern Europe. Maybe some lower skilled programming work might go to Europe. My son has an IT contracting company with contracts with City banks and financial institutions and the contracted workers are based 100% in India, obviously because they are so much cheaper than British workers and also are more skilled in niche sectors such as disaster recovery.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Savvy business people can make money in all kinds of conditions. 

Where I live there are bars and restaurants that are struggling. People will say that there's too much competition, times are hard, etc. but the people who own the competing establishments are obviously doing what they do better than the others. Their bars and restaurants are high-end with prices to match yet they are packed out a lot of the time. The owners drive top-of-the-range cars and appear to be living the lifestyle you'd associate with a large income.

Even in tough times there are people with money to spend. Good business people can profit and the rest will fail, probably after wasting some of their money trying.

If you've been successful in business for 20+ years then I would think that your decision about whether to try Spain will be a sound one if based on good research. But I think you'll have to look further than this message board when researching (I know you know that!). 

So overall it's a "yes" from me, there are positive things to say. In this current economic climate there are people making very good incomes from all sorts of businesses. Are you good enough to take them on, that's the question.




tommy t said:


> been looking through posts on this site and others for months now and regarding work and businesses in spain everything is "doom and gloom" my question .. is anyone at all actually making a good living in Mallorca or spain?? it was again one of the top tourist destinations for the last few year so surely there must be money to be made somewhere if not then why is anyone actually living there??
> 
> we are British and considering moving to Mallorca from California and opening or buying a business but everything I read is negative, there are loads of businesses for sale surely some of them must be doing ok?
> 
> ...


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

tommy t said:


> ...
> we are actually in the Group Fitness business and I hear fitness is getting more popular in Spain (would be interested to know how popular fitness is in your areas?) so maybe that would be an option, although after doing it for 20 years its getting a bit tedious, but maybe a new place = new enthusiasm,
> 
> Maybe we will go to Mallorca for 6 months or so and maybe check out the mainland too and see what things are like as it was the 90's when I was last there and that was on a few different vacations, again thanks for the replies as any info is really appreciated


In fact cheap gyms have taken off in Madrid recently. Ones where you pay no more than €20/month and mainly consist of aerobic machines. Apparently some have TVs that you can use to follow routines. I think part of the reason is the vast majority of buildings are blocks of flats, and many have unused spaces (locales) on the ground floors that were initially targeted at being shops, cafes, etc. However there are too many left empty and now going cheap. Provided they are big enough and can be sound proofed, turning them into cheap gyms seems to be the way to go. If you can offer classes in English you might even be able to distinguish yourselves from the competition.


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

Horlics said:


> Savvy business people can make money in all kinds of conditions.
> 
> Where I live there are bars and restaurants that are struggling. People will say that there's too much competition, times are hard, etc. but the people who own the competing establishments are obviously doing what they do better than the others. Their bars and restaurants are high-end with prices to match yet they are packed out a lot of the time. The owners drive top-of-the-range cars and appear to be living the lifestyle you'd associate with a large income.
> 
> ...



I'm a cheap skate myself, Nouvea poor is my Philosophy, even though I can
afford to live well and eat out - Never pay full price for anything - if you can
get away with it, not happy with what you bought, send it back !!

As for eating out - I've lived well eating out - scouring the Social Network sites
for any lectures, Seminars or up coming events where a complimentary buffet
is laid on.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Horlics said:


> Savvy business people can make money in all kinds of conditions.
> 
> Where I live there are bars and restaurants that are struggling. People will say that there's too much competition, times are hard, etc. but the people who own the competing establishments are obviously doing what they do better than the others. Their bars and restaurants are high-end with prices to match yet they are packed out a lot of the time. The owners drive top-of-the-range cars and appear to be living the lifestyle you'd associate with a large income.
> 
> ...


What kind of business do you operate in Spain?


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Why would anything I said lead you to think that I operate a business in Spain?



mrypg9 said:


> What kind of business do you operate in Spain?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

mrypg9 said:


> What kind of business do you operate in Spain?


Sorry, this was meant to follow on!!

What kind of business do you operate in Spain? It might help if we knew.

I have to disagree with what you say. Of course some people will succeed in business...otherwise we'd have no businesses at all! But being 'savvy' has often very little to do with success, as anyone who has owned or run a SME will tell you. Of course you need good judgment and the ability to calculate risk but there are many factors beyond one's control which can put a successful business into receivership.

Businesses very often depend not on how well they themselves are run but on how well their main clients run their businesses. I know of medium-sized businesses that have gone to the wall because of the inability of major clients to pay outstanding invoices. 
Then there's what for some businesses is the ever recurring liquidity problem. Some clients with major invoices outstanding will delay payment maybe because they themselves are waiting for their accounts to be settled. Problems such as these can put a previously healthy business in a precarious situation.
Currently there's the problem of a squeeze on bank lending which can affect a business needing to buy new plant to compete.

We once lost a client with whom we had a six-figure annual maintenance contract. No fault of ours....the client, a large national enterprise, moved their centre of operations. We were able to absorb what could have been a mortal blow for many companies.

So it's not quite the case that all you need is 'business savvy'. Businesses do not exist in isolation. A company is usually a link in a very long chain. When we packed up several local businesses took a knock, down to the mobile greasy spoon that served up breakfasts for our employees. There are only so many bars that can survive in a given area and the ones that fail often do so because customers' taste is fickle and there may be a new 'in' place.....for a month or so.

A lot of people who appear to have a flash lifestyle are really like ducks...all serene on top but paddling away like hell underneath.

None of this means that anyone can't make a living in Spain, although it depends on your definition of 'making a living'. But it's not quite the case that all you need to be a success or even stay afloat is 'savvy'.


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

Horlics said:


> Why would anything I said lead you to think that I operate a business in Spain?


I think the inference was, that what you wrote in your post (which I happen to agree with) may not necessarily apply in Spain. That operating a successful business in Spain requires a lot more than business acumen to succeed due predominantly to the peculiar way the Spanish have of doing business. There's huge swathes of red tape and bureaucracy to get through, not to mention the (relatively for an EU country) high levels of corruption.

Having said all that, I also happen to subscribe to your view that a successful businessperson who understands modern business practices will succeed in whatever business and wherever that business might be located.

The important point being made here I think is that to become a successful businessperson it's necessary to be fully familiar with all the necessary legislation, employment laws, regional regulations etc that apply to your chosen business. That's not quite so easy in Spain where their laws, regulations and legislations are haphazard at best and at worst totally corrupt. 

It's hard enough for native Spanish speakers—it can be a real nightmare for those who are not fluent or familiar with the intricacies of local dialect variations.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Horlics said:


> Why would anything I said lead you to think that I operate a business in Spain?


Basically because of what Zen has posted....I assumed from what you wrote that you had experience of owning/running a business here.
Because I assumed that I was interested as to what kind of business.


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

mrypg9 said:


> Then there's what for some businesses is the ever recurring liquidity problem. Some clients with major invoices outstanding will delay payment maybe because they themselves are waiting for their accounts to be settled. Problems such as these can put a previously healthy business in a precarious situation.


Absolutely right.

Liquidity, or what I prefer to call cash flow is the bane of all small to medium sized businesses for all the reasons you give. Customers/clients are slow to pay or delay payment for long periods of time and of course suppliers either want immediate or COD supply terms.

Cash flow or the lack of it is the predominant cause of all small/medium sized businesses going down.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

You know what assumptions do, as the old saying goes 



mrypg9 said:


> Basically because of what Zen has posted....I assumed from what you wrote that you had experience of owning/running a business here.
> Because I assumed that I was interested as to what kind of business.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

zenkarma said:


> Having said all that, I also happen to subscribe to your view that a successful businessperson who understands modern business practices will succeed in whatever business and wherever that business might be located.
> 
> .


What would you say in reply to the points I raised, though?
I can't agree with you either! The saying 'No man is an island;...is as I said in my post very true in business.

A successful businessperson would think very long and hard about many things, location being only one of them, before embarking on a new venture.
'Modern business practices' are irrelevant to some businesses. 

I myself would be useless at running a business but fortunately for me my partner was very astute and a good calculator of risk. My role in her Companies was minimal -making the tea, cleaning the loos - but I learnt enough from my experiences to know that a lot more is needed if you are to be successful than most people who have never run or owned a business seem to think.

One factor I didn't mention was the general economic climate. Businesses need paying customers with surplus spending power, especially those in the non-essential service sector. So the 'whatever and wherever' you mention might not apply to opening a night club in a town hit by recession.

I know that's an obvious example...there are better ones..


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Horlics said:


> You know what assumptions do, as the old saying goes


They sometimes hit the nail on the head and produce valuable results!!

But clearly not in this case!


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

So that's it then, Spain is closed, not a place for a businessman to peddle his trade? 

The point I was trying to make is that Spain is much like any other place. There are ups and downs and businesses prosper and fail during both. You have wise words for people setting out in business, such as the challenges with dependence and other risks, but they apply to all businesses everywhere whether in an up or down cycle.

So yes, I still hold the view that a good (wanting to avoid the word savvy!) businessman can make a go of it in Spain.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Well, usually when discussing the latest cock-up, the point made to people was that to ASSUME makes an ASS out of U and ME. And generally, they did.



mrypg9 said:


> They sometimes hit the nail on the head and produce valuable results!!
> 
> But clearly not in this case!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Horlics said:


> So that's it then, Spain is closed, not a place for a businessman to peddle his trade?
> 
> The point I was trying to make is that Spain is much like any other place. There are ups and downs and businesses prosper and fail during both. You have wise words for people setting out in business, such as the challenges with dependence and other risks, but they apply to all businesses everywhere whether in an up or down cycle.
> 
> So yes, I still hold the view that a good (wanting to avoid the word savvy!) businessman can make a go of it in Spain.


No, of course not. In fact I ended my post by saying that it's possible to make a living in Spain.
The point I'm making is simply this: success in business -and again it depends on your definition of success - depends on more than being 'savvy' ..or 'good'.
Very many people will open businesses in Spain in the next few months - many with the help of grants from regional authorities who are investing in job creation.
Some of these will succeed, some brilliantly. Many will fail.
But luck and circumstance will play a major role in determining who succeeds and who files for bankruptcy.
I know of very astute, previously successful businesspeople who through no fault of their own suffered failure. Also I know many people who are as thick as pig**** who have through having an important lucky break become very rich.

As I said, if I started a business and became established and successful, it most certainly wouldn't be because of any talent or wisdom on my part...it would be luck and a miracle..

So yes, of course new businesses can do well here or anywhere...with sufficient start-up capital, good market research, capable and loyal staff, customers that don't keep you waiting for months for payment if you do contract work, customers and a fair bit of luck.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Horlics said:


> Well, usually when discussing the latest cock-up, the point made to people was that to ASSUME makes an ASS out of U and ME. And generally, they did.


Don't worry about it

P.S. I've never heard that one, will have to remember it!

Just want to add, though, that As Zen wisely pointed out, Spain is not like any other place.
I think it would be far more straightforward opening a business in Maidstone than Malaga.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

So we're saying very similar things then, except you point out that thick people as well as "good" and "savvy" ones can start and may or may not fail too. Jeez! Shall we call it a day here?



mrypg9 said:


> No, of course not. In fact I ended my post by saying that it's possible to make a living in Spain.
> The point I'm making is simply this: success in business -and again it depends on your definition of success - depends on more than being 'savvy' ..or 'good'.
> Very many people will open businesses in Spain in the next few months - many with the help of grants from regional authorities who are investing in job creation.
> Some of these will succeed, some brilliantly. Many will fail.
> ...


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

I'd have to give the kudos for that one to a Lebanese colleague I worked with in the Middle East. No idea where he got it from but there more than anywhere it was most often true!

And I agree with Maidstone vs. Malaga comment.



mrypg9 said:


> Don't worry about it
> 
> P.S. I've never heard that one, will have to remember it!
> 
> ...


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

mrypg9 said:


> What would you say in reply to the points I raised, though?


I think you raise many important points with a lot of truth behind them.

But I'm still of the opinion that a successful businessperson who researches thoroughly not only the market potential for a new business but all the red tape that surrounds it will ultimately be successful.



mrypg9 said:


> The saying 'No man is an island;...


I love that expression. Particularly Hugh Grant's version of it in 'About a boy'!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Horlics said:


> So we're saying very similar things then, except you point out that thick people as well as "good" and "savvy" ones can start and may or may not fail too. Jeez! Shall we call it a day here?


Yes, we agree more or less. But I think it's important to make these distinctions simply because failure in business, like joblessness, is not always the fault of the failed or unemployed person.
The best laid plans of mice and men gan oft awry, as the Scottish guy said.

Now, having exhausted that subject, perhaps you could tell me how to transfer an extensive library of IPod music to a new laptop from an old? And how to avoid this dilemma should my current new laptop malfunction at some point..

I have been sitting here loading CDs onto my laptop for what seems like days now.. Actually, it is days.

Mods may decide this should be a new topic...or maybe there's a simple answer...we have techies on the Forum...


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

I used to have a boss who always said that "assumption is the mother of all f***-ups" whenever anything went wrong. As if everything in life wasn't an assumption to a certain extent. Eventually I cracked and asked him whether he visually checked that the break line on his car hadn't been cut each morning before driving to work, or did he assume that it was OK?


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

I have done this once when I still had access to the old computer. From memory.... It should be as straightforward as copying the iTunes folder over to somewhere on the new computer and then pointing to where the folder is from within the "Add to Library" option in iTunes. You'll end-up with two copies of the entire library on your disk, one inside the new iTunes folder and one in the folder into which you placed the files you copied across.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Horlics said:


> I have done this once when I still had access to the old computer. From memory.... It should be as straightforward as copying the iTunes folder over to somewhere on the new computer and then pointing to where the folder is from within the "Add to Library" option in iTunes. You'll end-up with two copies of the entire library on your disk, one inside the new iTunes folder and one in the folder into which you placed the files you copied across.


Thanks. I'll try that. But =forgive possibly stupid question - how do I then put the Library onto ITunes? I can't find an 'Add to Library' option.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

In the morning I'll have the Mac I imported to. I'll have a look then. Perhaps it is called Import to Library and you are able to specify a folder.



mrypg9 said:


> Thanks. I'll try that. But =forgive possibly stupid question - how do I then put the Library onto ITunes? I can't find an 'Add to Library' option.


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## David1979 (Feb 15, 2013)

A fair amount of the people I know here who are running a business aren't doing so legit. They simply couldn't afford to continue operating if they followed the autonomo payments and so on.

I like Spain, but it can be a real headscratcher at times with regards to how they do things.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

David1979 said:


> A fair amount of the people I know here who are running a business aren't doing so legit. They simply couldn't afford to continue operating if they followed the autonomo payments and so on.
> 
> I like Spain, but it can be a real headscratcher at times with regards to how they do things.


Then how come the vast majority of businesses manage to do so legally??
These illegal 'businesspeople' are in unfair competition with those who do the right thing, pay their dues. If they have employees, presumably they too are employed illegally.

When we were in business we had to put up with people who paid no tax, rates and other overheads, had no insurances and usually worked from their homes again without bothering to get planning permission. 

It's simple: if you can't operate legally, you shouldn't be operating. Period. You are engaging in what is possibly criminal activity. If you are illegal, your customers have you by the short and curlies, btw. If they don't pay, what can you do?

The system here may be more complicated but working on the black is illegal whether in Spain, the UK or anywhere in the civilised world. No-one has a God-given right to run their own business and flout the law because they can't make a living unless they cheat. These people enjoy the infrastructure paid for by the taxes of the law-abiding, don't they...
I wonder what the many people on this Forum who do make a decent living through hard work and honesty think of this kind of thing.


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## maxd (Mar 22, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Then how come the vast majority of businesses manage to do so legally??
> These illegal 'businesspeople' are in unfair competition with those who do the right thing, pay their dues. If they have employees, presumably they too are employed illegally.
> 
> When we were in business we had to put up with people who paid no tax, rates and other overheads, had no insurances and usually worked from their homes again without bothering to get planning permission.
> ...


Just about every business I come across in Spain wants cash. The reality is that your competition is doing it on a vast scale then you have got the idiot hat on if you are playing it by the book.

UK, different kettle of fish, Scandinavia again most people honest. Italy, Greece, Portugal are the same as Spain. The economic reality is that unfortunately to survive because your competition undercuts you.

I would say the vast majority of businesses have more than one trick up their sleeve, not the other way around as you state. Also I would add that the corporations "who pay their taxes" are far more prone to financial engineering through shell companies as well to lighten their tax burden so at the end of the day from corporation to crappy bar owner, they are all at it.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

maxd said:


> Just about every business I come across in Spain wants cash. The reality is that your competition is doing it on a vast scale then you have got the idiot hat on if you are playing it by the book.
> 
> UK, different kettle of fish, Scandinavia again most people honest. Italy, Greece, Portugal are the same as Spain. The economic reality is that unfortunately to survive because your competition undercuts you.
> 
> I would say the vast majority of businesses have more than one trick up their sleeve, not the other way around as you state.


Unless you have evidence for that last statement I have to disagree, I'm afraid. Are you saying a race to the bottom is the way to run an economy? 
Think through what you have said. If every business cheated on taxes the income to the state and local government would be insufficient to run the very basic services needed for a decent society to function. Many of these services could not be run by private enterprise regsrdless even of whether they should. 
The fact that so much of the economy is illegal is a big part of the problem of countries like Spain and Greece.
Many people don't choose the cheapest when seeking goods or services. I don't because I can't afford 'cheap'. I want quality goods or services, of course with vfm but we use people who provide legitimate invoices. Or are autonomo and we ask for proof
Recently we had a big painting job done. We were approached by the 'cash in hand' brigade but chose a slightly more expensive autonomo..he did an excellent job. A friend who used one of the cash in hand guys had no end of trouble.
We traded on quality, a good job done at a fair price. We enjoyed a good reputation as a trustworthy, honest business.
Anyone trading illegally can't be viewed in that light. Incidentally, thevpolice in Spain are cracking down on the illegals. 
I don't think Forum members who work and pay their dues would see themselves as wearing 'idiot hats '.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

And another point: I pay taxes in Spain and the UK. I have no choice. 
Why should some cheapskate tax dodger get away with not paying his/her dues to keep some crappy business afloat? 
There isn't a different set of rules for these people, you know...


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## maxd (Mar 22, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> And another point: I pay taxes in Spain and the UK. I have no choice.
> Why should some cheapskate tax dodger get away with not paying his/her dues to keep some crappy business afloat?
> There isn't a different set of rules for these people, you know...


I am just saying you seem to be very ignorant to the country you are living in. We played by the rules and got stiffed for 100k in redundancy pay by "doing the right thing" during the recession when we had to downsize. We burst out laughing now if someone asks for a full time contract.


People employ in various manners because full time contracts are a ticking time bomb. You may have heard of "the untouchables" who are just waiting to get the sack because their severance pay will be so large they will be laughing.

You love the government, I see them as the enemy as any contact with them is often unpleasant. The Spanish people chose feeding their families first and the government can FO.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

maxd said:


> I am just saying you seem to be very ignorant to the country you are living in. We played by the rules and got stiffed for 100k in redundancy pay by "doing the right thing" during the recession when we had to downsize. We burst out laughing now if someone asks for a full time contract.
> 
> 
> People employ in various manners because full time contracts are a ticking time bomb. You may have heard of "the untouchables" who are just waiting to get the sack because their severance pay will be so large they will be laughing.
> ...


eep:

Jo xxx


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## maxd (Mar 22, 2009)

jojo said:


> eep:
> 
> Jo xxx


No doubt some lecture is coming on paying your way. In the meantime lets looks at the lovely bunch of criminals in our lovely municipality.

Fifteen Arona officials imputed for trying to keep former mayor in office against Court ruling | Janet Anscombe

Mary is going to give me some lesson on how they provide roads and hospitals but what she fails to say is the only reason they are built in the first place is because the politicians brother's and cousins take their cut on the building, administration and supplies.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

maxd said:


> No doubt some lecture is coming on paying your way. In the meantime lets looks at the lovely bunch of criminals in our lovely municipality.
> 
> Fifteen Arona officials imputed for trying to keep former mayor in office against Court ruling | Janet Anscombe
> 
> Mary is going to give me some lesson on how they provide roads and hospitals but what she fails to say is the only reason they are built in the first place is because the politicians brother's and cousins take their cut on the building, administration and supplies.


we all have our views and opinions, we speak/write them clearly and politely. We dont have to agree, but we do have to show respect - Thats not directed at you or anyone in particular, I'm just laying down the rules, in case anyone strays off and starts throwing mud!!! As my mum used to say, we can all learn lessons, or at least learn from them

TBH, if our concerns and answers were that easy to implement, then I'm sure someone with the power would have by now

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

I have lived in this country for much longer than you, max and I can assure you I know quite well how it works. I do not 'love' the government but I recognise the important role it must play in the life of every civilised society.

You complain you got 'stuffed' for playing by the rules. Well, tough. Learn to take it as you knew those rules before you engaged in business here, surely? If you didn't that was very silly.

All you are doing is asking for special treatment for one section of society - yes, society. I can see no reason for giving you that special treatment. What reason can there be? Only one that I can see, which is that you are demanding to be released from your obligations to society in order to make more profit presumably by cutting coststo the bone and racing to the bottom in prices and wages. 
Some would call that greed...

If you can't do business legitimately you shouldn't be in business. You should know the rules before you get into the game and ifyou don't like them, don't play.

As for loving government - I don't like paying taxes any more thanyou. Who does? Well, I guess those businesses and banks that look to government aka the taxpayer to bail them out when they make costly mistakes, usually through greed and stupidity.

I'm still waiting for one sound reason why one sectionof our community should be allowed to break the law - tax evasion is criminal - because frankly, greed isn't a good reason, for me at least.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

maxd said:


> No doubt some lecture is coming on paying your way. In the meantime lets looks at the lovely bunch of criminals in our lovely municipality.
> 
> Fifteen Arona officials imputed for trying to keep former mayor in office against Court ruling | Janet Anscombe
> 
> Mary is going to give me some lesson on how they provide roads and hospitals but what she fails to say is the only reason they are built in the first place is because the politicians brother's and cousins take their cut on the building, administration and supplies.


They are built in the first place to enable you and me to travel from A to B and to be cared for should some mishap befall us on our journey...

And if my neighbour is corrupt, do I have to follow his example?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Thinking about what Jo said about respect and max posting aboutcorruption, with theseeming implication that ifyou can't beat them you should join them...

Here's a man worthy of respect, whatever you think of his political views:

David Valadez, PSOE Councillor in Estepona, became aware of widespread fraud and corruption in the Town Hall, the chief culprit being the PSOE Mayor. David went to the police with the result that over one hundred people have been arrested and a trial is expected next year. The affair is known as the Astapa case.
For some time afterwards, David was provided by the police with an armed bodyguard who accompanied him at all times. He had offended rich, poerful people. 
I have myself seen this and know it to be true. ADANA invited him to lunch when he was Mayor and his bodyguard was with him. I thought he was joking until he showed me his badge and pistol.
This man sáw corruption, knew it was wrong and a stain on society and took action ignoring therisk to himself and his family.
Compared to this, businessmen who cheat the system seem to me at least deserving of zero respect.
There are many like David Valadez in Spain. It's very wrong and rather insultingto tar all Spanish politicians and businesspeople with the same brush.


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## David1979 (Feb 15, 2013)

mrypg9 said:


> Then how come the vast majority of businesses manage to do so legally??


I don't know. You tell me?



mrypg9 said:


> It's simple: if you can't operate legally, you shouldn't be operating. Period. You are engaging in what is possibly criminal activity. If you are illegal, your customers have you by the short and curlies, btw. If they don't pay, what can you do?


Yeah, that's all well & good, but real life is never quite as black & white as that, is it? The unemployment rate has been mentioned many times on this forum. For some people it's a choice between either operating illegally or going hungry, isn't it?

Would you choose to not operate at all in those circumstances?



mrypg9 said:


> The system here may be more complicated but working on the black is illegal whether in Spain, the UK or anywhere in the civilised world. No-one has a God-given right to run their own business and flout the law because they can't make a living unless they cheat. These people enjoy the infrastructure paid for by the taxes of the law-abiding, don't they...
> I wonder what the many people on this Forum who do make a decent living through hard work and honesty think of this kind of thing.


Oh, come on. People cheat and lie in all walks of life. Even the biggest of companies out there are paying next to nothing when it comes to tax.

That doesn't make it right, but it does happen, both with people who simply cannot afford to stay afloat unless they do, and bigger companies who grease the palms of those in power in order to reduce their huge tax bills.

Cheating the system has always happened, and always will.



mrypg9 said:


> I have lived in this country for much longer than you, max and I can assure you I know quite well how it works.


I'm sure his dad is bigger than your dad though 



mrypg9 said:


> You complain you got 'stuffed' for playing by the rules. Well, tough. Learn to take it as you knew those rules before you engaged in business here, surely? If you didn't that was very silly.


Considering that Spain's black economy accounts for almost 25% of GDP I'd say that anyone who goes into business here _not_ expecting to have to compete with these types of businesses are the ones who are being silly.

If you want to play by the rules, then that's great. Much respect to you. But to blindly claim that those who don't play by the rules shouldn't even be in business, without taking into account their own personal circumstances is naive at best.

People will do whatever they have to do in order to feed their families, right? And when someone is operating a small business making just enough to get by, those autonomo payments can seem like a lot.

And as far as the Spanish Government "cracking down" on illegal activity, good luck with that. Such tactics never work.

What they need to do is ask themselves why so many people are choosing to operate in such a fashion, and then look at their own system and see if it can't be updated and altered to deal with today's circumstances and economic situation.

If they don't (and I don't see them doing so in the near future), things won't change. 



mrypg9 said:


> I'm still waiting for one sound reason why one sectionof our community should be allowed to break the law - tax evasion is criminal - because frankly, greed isn't a good reason, for me at least.


How about desperation? Does that count as a legitimate reason to break the law when it comes to self-employment in Spain? Having the choice between running a small business locally or going hungry isn't a choice at all really, is it?

It's a no-brainer.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

David1979 said:


> A fair amount of the people I know here who are running a business aren't doing so legit. They simply couldn't afford to continue operating if they followed the autonomo payments and so on.
> 
> I like Spain, but it can be a real headscratcher at times with regards to how they do things.


There's a big difference between avoiding tax because you're greedy, and avoiding tax because if you paid it you wouldn't make enough to live on. In Spain, where there isn't the option of living on social security, people have to do the best they can. You can't just put the prices up when your customers are on the breadline too. 

It's far too simplistic to say "if they can't afford to pay tax they shouldn't be in business". The tax structure needs to be adapted to fit the real world.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

David1979 said:


> I don't know. You tell me?
> 
> 
> Yeah, that's all well & good, but real life is never quite as black & white as that, is it? The unemployment rate has been mentioned many times on this forum. For some people it's a choice between either operating illegally or going hungry, isn't it?
> ...


Sorry, David, all of that is just one big plea for criminality.
T
Previously you told us that all that was needed to be successful was to be willing to work hard and think out of the box. Now it seems you've added a willingness to break the law.
What exactly are these costs of running a small business that are so crippling? Autonomo which for some businesses has been reduced by the Government and social security for employees whichis necessary for their protection, apart from anything else.

You want to know how businesses can survive without breaking the law? Well, I can tell you how we and most business in Spain do it. ...by offering quality products and services , maintaining the loyalty of the workforce and building a reputation for integrity and fair dealing. That's what the majority of businesses here do. 

If these businesspeople are foreigners as I suspect many are then they are spongers,living off Spain. If people on this Forum can manage to make an honest living whilst paying due tax then so can the rest.

Your argument about starving or being illegal is specious. Are you using the old 'end justifies the means' plea? What about people inwork who have no choice but to pay taxes and who might also have a struggle making ends meet? Are you saying they shouldturnto robbery?

What it all boils down to is this: the age-old whinge of some small businesspeople for special treatment. Running your own business doesn'tmake you special particularly as many of these businesses offer little in the way of value to the community
You are attemptingto justify criminality whichever way youlook at it in asociety where the vast majority are honest. You wouldn't do it in the UK as max has more or less admitted. Why think you can do it in Spain? Spain deserves better than being treated as if it weresome kind of home for cheats and spivs.

Thankfully your post is balanced by those from people intending to set up in business here asking for guidance as to howto do the right thing and obey the current rules. I suppose they are wearing fools' hats.

Until a stand is made against corruption of all kinds, big and small, the situation here and elsewhere in Europe will never improve.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> There's a big difference between avoiding tax because you're greedy, and avoiding tax because if you paid it you wouldn't make enough to live on. In Spain, where there isn't the option of living on social security, people have to do the best they can. You can't just put the prices up when your customers are on the breadline too.
> 
> It's far too simplistic to say "if they can't afford to pay tax they shouldn't be in business". The tax structure needs to be adapted to fit the real world.


And until then it's OK to cheat?

How about those employed people who have no choice but to pay tax and social security? Many of them are having ajob making ends meet.

When you justify cheating and law breaking you are on a very slippery slope. If the laws are wrong, campaign to change them. I see no evidence of many of the whingers doing this.

If corruption - and that's what this is- is wrong for the bigfish it's wrong for small fry. There can't be two different sets of morality. If the tax laws are in your opinion wrong, work through the usual channels to change them. Meanwhile obey the law. The laws have been changed although there is still much to be done.

You can't condemn one lot of cheats and excuse another. Not if you want to live in a society governed by therule of law.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

This argument is analagous to the one put forward by small businesses when the Minimum Wage legislation was introduced, namely, that it was unaffordable and would put many small companies out of business. We will no doubt hear the same if proposals for a Living Wage are put forward.

Paying due tax, paying what the law says you should to your employees....where's the difference?

If as is claimed people would go out of business then they would be unemployed like the seven million others.that's true. But then they wouldn't be able to claim paro if they hadn't paid their autonomo whereas if they had they would.
Their illegal employees would also be without assistance.

I've yet to,see an argument that doesn't presuppose some special status for the self- employed. I'm no anti- capitalist but some of the arguments from presumed supporters of capitalism make me smile.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Here's a real-world example of one of these "cheats and spivs". 

My neighbour is not young but not yet a pensioner. He gets two months work each summer cutting the bark from cork trees. This backbreaking work is well-paid but doesn't give him enough to live on year-round, so he has to find other sources of income. In spring he goes out into the campo on his moped and collects snails, edible thistles or wild asparagus which he sells to bars and restaurants. In autumn he collects prickly pears and painstakingly removes the spines before selling them for about €1 per kilo.

On a good day he might earn €20, though there are a lot of other people doing the same thing so the buyers can knock the prices down.

If he went legit, he would have to pay autonomo, make a tax declaration, issue invoices to his customers and employ an accountant. He can't read or write very well - I'm not sure he would cope. All he wants to do (and thousands like him all over Andalucia) is do what he's always done, living off the land and doing an honest (in his eyes) day's work. He doesn't want to live off the State or be employed by some absentee landowner. He's happy being his own man.

However, the tax structure doesn't have a way of dealing with this sort of casual rural labour. There are months where he doesn't earn anything. Even under the new structure, for half the year he would have to pay more than he earns.



> As a freelance or self-employed worker, you are required to make the necessary social security payments yourself. As of 2014, these amount to 261,83 euros/month. All new autonomos have reduced social security payments of 53,07 euros/mth for 6 months, then 130,91 euros/mth for the next 6 months and 183,28 euros/month for the next 6 months (12 months for under 30's or women under 35).


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> Here's a real-world example of one of these "cheats and spivs".
> 
> My neighbour is not young but not yet a pensioner. He gets two months work each summer cutting the bark from cork trees. This backbreaking work is well-paid but doesn't give him enough to live on year-round, so he has to find other sources of income. In spring he goes out into the campo on his moped and collects snails, edible thistles or wild asparagus which he sells to bars and restaurants. In autumn he collects prickly pears and painstakingly removes the spines before selling them for about €1 per kilo.
> 
> ...


 actually you can 'baja' & not pay autónomo for months when you know you won't be working

I do exactly that - although yes, it wouldn't be long before he wasn't earning enough to cover it, when he was working

there needs to be a way that the employers can employ on short term / temp 'contracts' - if there isn't , though I have a feeling that there is


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> actuallyyou can 'baja' & not pay autónomo for months when you know you won't be working
> 
> I do exactly that - although yes, it wouldn't be long before he wasn't earning enough to cover it, when he was working
> 
> there needs to be a way that the employers can employ on short term / temp 'contracts' - if there isn't , though I have a feeling that there is


But with that sort of life, you don't know when you won't be working. It rains, the snails come out, you have work for a week!


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## David1979 (Feb 15, 2013)

mrypg9 said:


> Sorry, David, all of that is just one big plea for criminality.


Of course, there are different kinds of criminals, aren't there? A man who knocks down an old lady and steals her purse is classified as a criminal, and a man who avoids paying tax in order to operate a small business selling water melons from the roadside to feed his family is also a criminal.

I consider both to be vastly different. Whilst I wouldn't go as far as outright condoning the latter, I'd certainly have to say I can understand why he breaks the law.



mrypg9 said:


> Previously you told us that all that was needed to be successful was to be willing to work hard and think out of the box. Now it seems you've added a willingness to break the law.


Sometimes breaking the law is thinking outside the box 



mrypg9 said:


> What exactly are these costs of running a small business that are so crippling? Autonomo which for some businesses has been reduced by the Government and social security for employees whichis necessary for their protection, apart from anything else.


As you no doubt know, autonomo is not always reduced, and if it isn't it can be quite costly. 250 Euros can be the difference between eating, or not eating to a lot of people.



mrypg9 said:


> You want to know how businesses can survive without breaking the law? Well, I can tell you how we and most business in Spain do it. ...by offering quality products and services , maintaining the loyalty of the workforce and building a reputation for integrity and fair dealing. That's what the majority of businesses here do.


I'm not sure if you're thinking about the people who avoid paying their autonomo in the same way that I am. I certainly wouldn't consider them to be businesses who operate from premises and who employ staff. I'd imagine these kinds of businesses would be rather easy to detect and to punish.

I'm talking more about the self-employed person who maybe runs a small mobile fruit stall, or who operates as a self-employed cleaner, or who maybe cleans pools and so on.



mrypg9 said:


> If these businesspeople are foreigners as I suspect many are then they are spongers,living off Spain.


Do you have any facts to back that up? Or are you just making an assumption?



mrypg9 said:


> If people on this Forum can manage to make an honest living whilst paying due tax then so can the rest.


I'm sure you know that isn't the case. The vast majority who are operating in the black aren't doing so in order to be able to afford that 2nd BMW, or because they'd rather spend the money on a new boat. They're doing so because, to them, the payments due are a lot of money and it can affect their ability to live.



mrypg9 said:


> Your argument about starving or being illegal is specious.


How do you know? Do you know what the people in the position I mentioned above have to go through? Such an opinion seems rather arrogant I think.



mrypg9 said:


> Are you using the old 'end justifies the means' plea?


If the ends are being able to eat and afford rent, then yes. 



mrypg9 said:


> What about people inwork who have no choice but to pay taxes and who might also have a struggle making ends meet? Are you saying they shouldturnto robbery?


If the Spanish tax system was more modern and slightly less ridiculous then we'd maybe see less people having to operate in the black, wouldn't we? Expecting someone who is out of work to try and kickstart their lives with self-employment under the current system is a tall order.

As I said above, many of those operating in the black are likely the pool cleaners, small fruit stand vendors, cleaners and so on. The chances are they don't have a bank account with money to fall back on, so for them starting a business as one person doing jobs here & there simply won't work under the current system.

But then your answer to them would be "don't go into business then", right? Just remain unemployed.



mrypg9 said:


> You are attemptingto justify criminality whichever way youlook at it in asociety where the vast majority are honest. You wouldn't do it in the UK as max has more or less admitted. Why think you can do it in Spain? Spain deserves better than being treated as if it weresome kind of home for cheats and spivs.


Less people do it in the UK because the small business tax system is light years ahead of Spains, that's why. If the UK adopted the same system as we have here we'd see the exact same thing happen over a number of years.

The UK, for all its faults, actually does a good job in encouraging small business creation.



mrypg9 said:


> Until a stand is made against corruption of all kinds, big and small, the situation here and elsewhere in Europe will never improve.


I agree.

And once I see the multi-national corporations and the politicians clean up their act I'll look at the pool cleaners, fruit sellers and domestic cleaners to do the same.

Leading by example and all that


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Here's a real-world example of one of these "cheats and spivs".
> 
> My neighbour is not young but not yet a pensioner. He gets two months work each summer cutting the bark from cork trees. This backbreaking work is well-paid but doesn't give him enough to live on year-round, so he has to find other sources of income. In spring he goes out into the campo on his moped and collects snails, edible thistles or wild asparagus which he sells to bars and restaurants. In autumn he collects prickly pears and painstakingly removes the spines before selling them for about €1 per kilo.
> 
> ...


I think Xabia has dealt with that situation in her reply. Besides, we're not really talking about asparagus pickers, are we..

What are the taxes that small businesses have to pay, exactly? Autonomo, which as has been pointed out, has exemptions for down time. Then there's IVA if your turnover is above a certain level and seg soc if you have employees.

If you can afford employees and your turnover reaches the IVA level you can afford to pay taxes. 
So the real problem here is the level at which autonomo is applied and the amount. Although people like Xavia and others on this Forum get by and pay what is required there may be a case for a more tiered kind of autonomo.

Picking out individual cases such as your asparagus picker doesn't support or refute an argument against cheating, which it is, however justified it might seem to be. There are no doubt many other cases which could be produced to counter them....such as the small local garage we used to use which gives no invoices and avoids IVA. I suppose you could say the customer benefits from the lower price but we changed to a smaller garage which provides invoices including IVA and which not only survives but is thriving. The other small business curiously is no longer trading.

At the end of the day you either agree that the culture of corruption is wrong or you don't. All this talk about the majority of businesses dodging tax in one way or another is pure supposition, pure self- justification.

Incidentally if I remember rightly max's original gripe about being stuffed for €100k related to redundancy payments. Are we now saying they are a burden on business?


Actually I think they are at their current level. Praise to max though for paying his workers what must have been a high wage to incur that level of redundancy.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> I think Xabia has dealt with that situation in her reply. Besides, we're not really talking about asparagus pickers, are we..
> 
> What are the taxes that small businesses have to pay, exactly? Autonomo, which as has been pointed out, has exemptions for down time. Then there's IVA if your turnover is above a certain level and seg soc if you have employees.
> 
> ...


if your business attracts IVA it's payable/chargeable from the very first invoice - not everything attracts IVA though

there are special rates for agricultural workers as well


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

David1979 said:


> Of course, there are different kinds of criminals, aren't there? A man who knocks down an old lady and steals her purse is classified as a criminal, and a man who avoids paying tax in order to operate a small business selling water melons from the roadside to feed his family is also a criminal.
> 
> I consider both to be vastly different. Whilst I wouldn't go as far as outright condoning the latter, I'd certainly have to say I can understand why he breaks the law.
> 
> ...


Yes, lead by example. Or leave everything as it is. Which basically is what you are advocating.

So we've narrowed these 'businesspeople' down to pool cleaners, fruit sellers and cleaners. We're leaving out the non IVA payers or those who hire workers on the black. 
Do you agree these practices are wrong?

Many of these pool cleaners etc. who work for practically nothing are undercutting people who pay their taxes. They may have employees who will be put out of work by these illegal pool cleaners. 

If things go on as they are nothing will change. You still haven't explained how the vast majority of small businesss manage to operate legally. Assuming they do not as you said in an earlier post is rather arrogant too, in tarring people you don't know as cheats.

We are also assuming that these people don't pay autonomo so are entitled to no help from the soc seg. If they paid in, they'd be entitled to take out when in need.
Of course, if no- small businesses paid tax there'd be less money going to government to pay paro.

Agreed the whole situation is one big mess. One reason taxes are high is that so many avoid paying them in the first place. But merely accepting a situation where one group can avoid paying their dues will do nothing to change things.

And I don't need to watch what others do to decide right from wrong, neither do most people, if my neighbour steals, I don't have to. In a democracy it isn't up to you or me to decide for ourselves which láws we think we'll obey and which we won't.
If you don't like the situation you are in, work to change it, however difficult it may seem.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

xabiachica said:


> if your business attracts IVA it's payable/chargeable from the very first invoice - not everything attracts IVA though
> 
> there are special rates for agricultural workers as well


Another possible case for aplying a tiered system?

I'm wondering why small business associations aren't lobbying vociferously for changes in the rates of autonomo and IVA.


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## David1979 (Feb 15, 2013)

mrypg9 said:


> So we've narrowed these 'businesspeople' down to pool cleaners, fruit sellers and cleaners. We're leaving out the non IVA payers or those who hire workers on the black.


The small business owners I'm talking about are those who genuinely cannot afford to pay the relatively high cost of autonomo every month. The examples I gave are simply a few of the people who I believe would fall into that category.

What would you have such business people do? Simply stop working because they can't afford to be straight shooters like you?



mrypg9 said:


> Many of these pool cleaners etc. who work for practically nothing are undercutting people who pay their taxes. They may have employees who will be put out of work by these illegal pool cleaners.


Being as they are probably doing so in order to put food on the table I find it really hard to condemn them to be honest. 



mrypg9 said:


> If things go on as they are nothing will change. You still haven't explained how the vast majority of small businesss manage to operate legally.


As I said before, you tell me? 



mrypg9 said:


> Assuming they do not as you said in an earlier post is rather arrogant too, in tarring people you don't know as cheats.


Where did I say that the vast majority of small businesses do not operate legally? 



mrypg9 said:


> Agreed the whole situation is one big mess. One reason taxes are high is that so many avoid paying them in the first place. But merely accepting a situation where one group can avoid paying their dues will do nothing to change things.


I'm not too sure I've seen a lot of "accepting" of the situation, or condoning of it either. What you may have seen is people saying that they _understand _why certain people go down the route of working in the black. There's a big difference there in my opinion.

It really is quite simple. If the people who run this country wish to see more self-employed people pay their fair share of tax they have to change the system to suit the current economic climate.

You either adapt, or die. The current system is slowly dying in my opinion. A complete overhaul, encouraging those who are out of work to make moves to start small businesses is a step in the right direction.

Hitting them with 250 Euros of autonomo every month, regardless of their income is mental. It doesn't work now, and it won't work tomorrow, no matter how "tough" the Government claims it's going to get.

Any sanctions will be akin to standing in the sea with your arms out trying to stop the tide from coming in.



mrypg9 said:


> And I don't need to watch what others do to decide right from wrong, neither do most people, if my neighbour steals, I don't have to. In a democracy it isn't up to you or me to decide for ourselves which láws we think we'll obey and which we won't.
> 
> If you don't like the situation you are in, work to change it, however difficult it may seem.


You're right, in a democracy we don't get to decide which laws we want to obey. Unless we're rich or powerful, of course


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Talking as it seems we are of pool cleaners, cleaners, fruit sellers...surelyif people can afford to pay to have their house or pool cleaned can affordto pay a dcent rate for these services? I've put the blame on the providers and neglected the role played by those who are hapyto pay a cleaner 5€ an hour..

These people are just as bad, naybe worse in that they create a demand and are taking advantage of people's need. They are also acting illegally as the law states they must pay soc seg for these workers if they work for more than a very small amount of time per month.

I'm not sure owners of shops selling fruit would take such a relaxed view of nontax paying fruit sellers.
I wonder what David, who pays his due tax, would think of cheap non- taxpaying tattoo artists if they set up in Benalmadena...

The company we use offers gardening, house maintenance and pool a
Services. They are fully legal and charge €25 an hour for two employees to clean your pool etc.
They have loads of work. Is it right for their business to be threatened by people undercutting them? Wouldn't it be better for them to expand and take on more employees at a decent wage?


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## David1979 (Feb 15, 2013)

mrypg9 said:


> I wonder what David, who pays his due tax, would think of cheap non- taxpaying tattoo artists if they set up in Benalmadena...


You know the saying, don't you? Don't hate the player, hate the game


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

David1979 said:


> The small business owners I'm talking about are those who genuinely cannot afford to pay the relatively high cost of autonomo every month. The examples I gave are simply a few of the people who I believe would fall into that category.
> 
> What would you have such business people do? Simply stop working because they can't afford to be straight shooters like you?
> 
> ...


I can only tell you what the successful legitimate businesses I know of do, namely give a good service for a fair price. Some people prefer honesty whether customer or provider. I said that earlier.
You tell me what you think they do because there are many successful businesses out there. Is the implication that they are not honest, then?

We both agree that the current tax situation is wrong. But carrying on like we are now is going to lead the country into an even worse situation. You can only change things by two routes: working through legitimate channels or revolution. Thevsecond option is neither likely or desirable.

So are you saying that Spain will always be a country where some people justify cheating the system?

As for your last point: neither you nor I take our stance on moral matters by following the example of the rich and powerful..


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

David1979 said:


> You know the saying, don't you? Don't hate the player, hate the game


David!! That is specious sophistry!! Unworthy!!

I'm guessing you're not a Fenian or you'd have said Love the sinner but hate the sin...


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## David1979 (Feb 15, 2013)

mrypg9 said:


> I can only tell you what the successful legitimate businesses I know of do, namely give a goodvservice forba fair price. Some people prefer honesty whether customer or provider.
> 
> You tell me what you think they do because there are many successful businesses out there. Is the implication that they are not honest, then?


Look, I've been running my own affairs for long enough to know that even the most legit of businesses will bend the rules every now & then. None of them are completely honest. Even if it's down to what they put through as expenses and so on.

I've done it myself. There have been plenty of tattoo conventions I've been to when I was in the UK that were more like holidays than business (in fact, they were all holidays pretty much! )

You'd get a load of us in the hotel, buying drinks and food and pocketing the receipts for later. This applies to a lot of "legit" business owners, simply swap our jean shorts, checked shirts and tattoos for business suits, silk ties and expensive shoes. 

For me though, the system doesn't cater for the person who sits between the area of being unemployed and earning a bit of cash doing the odd job. What do you expect those people to do?



mrypg9 said:


> So are you saying that Spain will always be a country where some people justify cheating the system?


Isn't that the case in every country though? No nation is perfect, and you'll always have those who break the rules.



mrypg9 said:


> As for your last point: neither you nor I take our stance on moral matters by following the example of the rich and powerful..


That's true, but where we differ is that I can understand why someone would avoid paying their tax if it meant not being able to eat or pay the rent. Are they breaking the law? Yes. From a moral standpoint I can understand why they do it though.

Your opinion seems to be that they should either pay tax or not work at all. My opinion is that they should do what they have to do to eat, but if they find themselves in the position of being able to go legit they most certainly should.



mrypg9 said:


> David!! That is specious sophistry!! Unworthy!!
> 
> I'm guessing you're not a Fenian or you'd have said Love the sinner but hate the sin...


I'm more of the Buddhist persuasion really, which is why I love this part of Spain and ended up coming here originally.

I tend to believe in the old "live and let live" motto. If someone has to be a bit economical with their taxes to make ends meet I'm certainly not going to condemn them. 

Fight the power and all that! :biggrin1:


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

David1979 said:


> Look, I've been running my own affairs for long enough to know that even the most legit of businesses will bend the rules every now & then. None of them are completely honest. Even if it's down to what they put through as expenses and so on.
> 
> I've done it myself. There have been plenty of tattoo conventions I've been to when I was in the UK that were more like holidays than business (in fact, they were all holidays pretty much! )
> 
> ...


Maybe it's the fact that my partner and owner/MD of her companies is Glaswegian Protestant that enables me to state categorically that no, she did not bend the rules.  But she was still able to retire well before the age most people have to and to enjoy a life in Spain so honesty pays in some cases.
Yes I understand why people cheat the system. I understand why some people commit murder. Every time I see a line-up of some Royal Family on a balcony or a line of politicians or bankers I have the urge to reach for a gun. But to understand is not to condone and certainly not to participate.
I think it's a bit of an exaggeration to say that some people have to cheat on their taxes to pay the rent or eat. Many of these people who do that are in fact receiving paro. If they're not, it's because they have never paid into the system which presumably means that as well as no paro they and their families have no health care. 
If this were the case it still wouldn't be a good argument. Everyone defends their own situation. The Duke of Westminster would probably have good reason to explain his tax dodging. Yes, there's a big difference between him and some poor fruit seller on the paro but the principle is the same.
Which leads to this: if as I know max to be, as I am and I suspect you are, you are a believer in some form of capitalism, you have to accept the brutal fact that there will be winners and losers. But some actions actually increase the number of losers and dodging tax is one of them.
Look at it this way: anyone in legitimate business, paying taxes, must charge a fee sufficient to cover all their overheads. A person who does not have these overheads can undercut them and put them out of business which means they will no longer be able to pay taxes to the system to support those on paro. If the business has employees they too will be out of work. So they offer illegal services to undercut other legitimate businesses which means they go under....A vicious circle.
You would most definitely be unhappy if a tattoo artist working from home undercut you and put you out of business. Xavia would be unhappy if an illegal business set up in competition with her undercutting her because they didn't have the advantage of cheating by not paying paro.
That is the bottom line and apart from appealing to sympathy by telling me that these people might be homeless or starve unless they cheat which is highly unlikely you have ignored that line of reasoning.
Yes, I agree, fight the system. In my own minor way I've been doing that all of my adult life in one way or another and I'm still doing so in a very minor way. But cheating on taxes isn't fighting the system. It's co-operating with a corrupt system, entrenching it, almost making it respectable. That applies to the skinflints who benefit from the cheap labour on offer from the non-tax payers, perhaps even more so.
Yes, the tax system needs to be changed. I do agree with you. But cheating isn't the way to get things changed. Concerted action via the democratic process is how things get changed, albeit sometimes unbearably slowly. Capitalism produces the fortunate and the less fortunate and which category people fall into is nearly always due to factors beyond their control.
I'm intrigued by your comment about Buddhism...Catholicism, of course, Islam perhaps...but Buddhism?? In Spain??
Tell me more


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## angil (Sep 24, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> Maybe it's the fact that my partner and owner/MD of her companies is Glaswegian Protestant that enables me to state categorically that no, she did not bend the rules.  But she was still able to retire well before the age most people have to and to enjoy a life in Spain so honesty pays in some cases.
> Yes I understand why people cheat the system. I understand why some people commit murder. Every time I see a line-up of some Royal Family on a balcony or a line of politicians or bankers I have the urge to reach for a gun. But to understand is not to condone and certainly not to participate.
> I think it's a bit of an exaggeration to say that some people have to cheat on their taxes to pay the rent or eat. Many of these people who do that are in fact receiving paro. If they're not, it's because they have never paid into the system which presumably means that as well as no paro they and their families have no health care.
> If this were the case it still wouldn't be a good argument. Everyone defends their own situation. The Duke of Westminster would probably have good reason to explain his tax dodging. Yes, there's a big difference between him and some poor fruit seller on the paro but the principle is the same.
> ...


A little bit of enlightenment for you!

Enlightenment Stupa in Benalmádena (Buddhist Temple) | Benalmádena Pueblo

Its what attracted me to this area.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

To return to the OP's original question and area of business interest, yes, fitness is very popular in Spain. Your biggest problem would be identifying an area where there is are enough potential customers but not too much competition from existing health clubs/gyms.

Despite the difficult economic climate, some businesses are evidently still finding it worthwhile to invest in opening new facilities. This one opened in the Pedregalejo area of Malaga just a few months ago -it's a purpose built, stand alone health club with all kinds of facilities including an indoor pool, must have cost a fortune to build and equip.
Gimnasios Malaga - ACB Aviva - Gimnasio con spa, padel...

I'm a member of a place with similar facilities (but a few years older) in Torre del Mar, and there's another large private health and sports centre in the same town which has an outdoor pool, tennis and padel courts and football pitches. There are a number of smaller gyms with less extensive facilities in town as well.


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## tsharon (Jun 27, 2014)

As with employment in all countries - it depends on your area, your experience and what you want to do


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

angil said:


> A little bit of enlightenment for you!
> 
> Enlightenment Stupa in Benalmádena (Buddhist Temple) | Benalmádena Pueblo
> 
> Its what attracted me to this area.


Thank you, that's interesting.

Of all the world's religions, Buddhism seems to me to be the least aggressive in that it doesn't seek to proselytise - not sure if I've spelt that right.
It also as I understand it prioritises thought and contemplation over action. 
That in itself is enough to highly recommend it.


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