# Canadian wanting to move to Spain



## warstm (Nov 25, 2021)

so im currently living in philpines but I want to move to spain based on what I've been able to google my understanding is that it might be possible to get nlv visa however I work remotely currently for a company in Canada as a contractor have been for several years I make about 2100 euros a month my question is with working remotely is nlv an option or am I just out of luck in that regards


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

You cannot work on NLV, and that includes remote working, so any earnings from that cannot be put towards meeting financial requirement. Spain is set to be planning a remote worker's visa but there are no details available and no timescale for its introduction.


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## timwip (Feb 27, 2017)

I think there are two issues here-

1. Can you currently use remote work income to obtain a visa in Spain? I believe the answer to that is no.
2. When you have a NLV in Spain, can you remotely work? The answer to that question is yes as long as you are invoicing a company not located in Spain. This makes sense since you are not taking employment from a person able to work in Spain. As long as you are paying taxes in Spain, why would Spain want to prohibit this?

I know people will say otherwise: however, this is the advice I have received from my lawyer and accountant.


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## warstm (Nov 25, 2021)

ok thank you ill keep looking for options maybe ill see if anyone has a company I can work through might be an option


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## ksjazzguitar (Dec 22, 2010)

Not wanting to start a fight, but just want give the other side in hopes of people potentially making a life damaging mistake...

Many people will tell you you can work remotely on the NLV. Others will tell you that you can't. I am in the latter camp because when I read the law it seems clear to me and also there would be no need for the digital nomad visa they are currently writing - but we can debate that another time. Some people will tell you it is 100% OK to work remotely on a NLV. But digital nomads get turned down for it all the time. My opinion is the whole internationally remote worker thing kind of snuck up on Spain (and a lot of other countries) and some embassies let it slide since there wasn't a good fit, so people started assuming that that meant that it was 100% legal. But I've seen reports that embassies are getting stricter and rejecting a lot more of these. And you can find plenty of law firms explaining that it is illegal. (And yes, you can find some that take the opposite position.) A good example would be the respected Balcells group:



https://balcellsgroup.com/work-remotely-non-lucrative-visa/



I'm not telling you what to do or what not to do. I'm just saying to be careful to only take advice from people that are telling you what you want to hear. This is a big decision with potentially huge ramifications to your life. Please consider all sides of the argument.


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## timwip (Feb 27, 2017)

Like you I do not want to get into a quarrel; however, please hear me out. There are two separate issues involved that keep being intertwined:

1. Can you use remote work income as a basis for a visa?
2. Can you work remotely on a NLV?

The fact that they do not allow remote income to be used as a basis for a visa has nothing to do with not being able to do remote work. These are separate issues.

With respect to the first question, I do not have direct experience: however, based upon what other people have reported, I believe the answer to this question is no.

With respect to the second question, I have consulted a local attorney that was referred to me by my cousin-in-law, a judge in Asturias, that attorney told me exactly what is listed in the Balcell's link that is provided. You can work remotely on a NLV as long as

You cannot work for a Spanish company
You cannot work for a Spanish employer
You cannot open your business in Spain
You cannot open a branch office in the Spanish territory
As a private person, my only objective is to comply with the law as it is written. If one complies with these four stipulations, yes one can do remote work. (Also one must pay Spanish taxes on this income in accordance with Tax Treaties).

As pointed out, there is an inconsistency as to not being able to use remote income as a means of obtaining a visa and being able to do remote work once having a NLV. However, this could be rationale for the government considering to allow the remote work visa. This would bridge the inconsistency.

This is my option. Of course, everyone should do what they think is best. However, I think it is best to comply with the law as it is written.


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## ksjazzguitar (Dec 22, 2010)

"...that attorney told me exactly what is listed in the Balcell's link that is provided. You can work remotely on a NLV as long as"

Balcells does not say that. They explicitly conclude the opposite. They do list those 4 points (though I disagree that the law is specific to work in Spain). But if you keep reading, you get to:



> That is the problem: *the Spanish immigration law simply does not address this topic*. There is no section talking about this type of economic relationship. ... Unfortunately, the real (and legal) answer [to the question of working remotely on an NLV] is no. *You cannot work remotely in Spain with a non-lucrative visa *(wait until the end, things may not be that bad). [the emphasis is Bal]


Did you not see that part? That the legal opinion of a respected Spanish legal firm specializing in immigration comes to the opposite conclusion that you do?



> If one complies with these four stipulations, yes one can do remote work.


The law is not these four stipulations. These are a reduction and summary of pages of legal language. At least I don't remember the law having that format when I read through it a few months ago. When I read through it, I did not see where it said that it only applied to income from Spain. It just seems a popular inference, often people assuming what the intent of the law was and what they infer from how some consulates sometimes enforce it. I am not a lawyer and I don't know how things like precedent and common law work in Spain, but I'm still waiting for someone to point to me in the actual law where it is anything more that an inference that this applies only to income earned in Spain. To me the language is clearly referring to income made while you are living in Spain. I'm pretty confident in how that law would be interpreted in the US, but again, I don't know about Spain.

I'm not saying that this is definitive "just because Balcells is saying it" - though they are a very respected company specializing in immigration. I'm pointing out that contrary to what some people seem to imply, it is not an open and shut case that NLV was ever intended for remote workers or that this is a safe path for them. Just a few weeks ago, in another group, someone was complaining that he was rejected for the NLV because they thought he _might_ work remotely - just the suspicion. It doesn't take much searching to find other stories like this on the internet. And I've heard that consulates are getting more strict about this. Apparently, Spain, like most countries, isn't too fond of people coming into their country, working for an income and paying no taxes. That is probably why the new digital nomad visa includes a tax regime, but whatever...

If people want to believe that the NLV is intended for international, remote workers, fine. I've given up trying to convince them otherwise. But if you are wrong, your advice could seriously screw the OP and his family. I'm just suggesting that we include both sides of the discussion - as I try to do. And it also annoys me when people cherry pick.

I agree that there is a vagueness in the law. I don't mind of people come to the opposite conclusion than I do. What I mind is people assuming that that is the only possible conclusion and telling people that they can gamble their future on an inference and ignoring that many lawyers and Spanish officials disagree with that.

OP, don't take my word for it. Don't take timwip's word for it. Talk to a layer. Do _a lot_ of research. (aka, not just posting on social media) And realize that you are in a legal gray area that is changing and may pull the rug out from under your feet. And put some thought into what might happen to your plans if this gets rejected or even if you make it and then they decide to continue their trend of cracking down more on this and maybe even start going after people in the country. If you tell them flat out that you intend to support yourself with remote work and they accept you, then I guess you'd have some legal cover, but if you (like a lot of the people I've read) kind of hide that fact to get the NLV, you may be opening yourself up to a lot of legal problems. I don't know how the law works in Spain, but in the US, the "other people have gotten away with it" and "yeah, I was a little dishonest, but only so I could get what I wanted" arguments will just piss off the judge. It's your life, but make an informed decision, and be honest with yourself about the upsides and downsides.

#caveataduenam


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## timwip (Feb 27, 2017)

I made my point. You disagree. I respect that. Each person needs to make their own decision.


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## ksjazzguitar (Dec 22, 2010)

More information that Spain is cracking down on NLVs: https://costaluzlawyers.es/blog/why...eding-non-lucrative-visas-for-remote-workers/


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## Do28 (Dec 21, 2010)

I know loads of people working on NLVs. Only the brits are obsessed with rules and we will twist and gold plate them to be as onerous as humanly possible and then add a little extra gold plating just to be doubly sure it is as painful as possible. So my advise is ignore any advice from anyone who is British and just roll with it and see what happens......


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## Barriej (Jul 23, 2012)

Here are some contacts and information regarding working with a NLV.

The law states No work, but due to there not having been any form of digital work for when it was passed, is the major sticking point.
There are plans to give a nomadic visa, but stuff here happens so slowly you may be retired before it ever happens (just ask those who are waiting for a driving licence exchange scheme for Uk licences) 
Suggest you contact the consulate you will be applying through directly and ask the question and give them all the information (truthfully) and then they will hopefully answer. 
None of us here (or very few) will have been through this as most arrived from the Uk when you could just rock up and live on your basic Uk pension....


Anyway you will end up doing what you want BUT remember just cause someone says you can. Don't mean they will stand by you if it all goes pear shaped.
And Spanish paperwork is in a league of its own. 

She stuff for you to peruse.... 



https://balcellsgroup.com/work-remotely-non-lucrative-visa/











Can I work remotely on a non-lucrative visa?


Many of you may be familiar with the non lucrative visa, or what many call, a retirement visa. In fact, this is not a visa, is a residency...




www.abogadoextranjeriamadrid.net





Residence Visa (Non-Lucrative) (see section 10)

This one is from the Canadian Consulate. 






Non-lucrative residence visas







www.exteriores.gob.es





And the first line sort of sums it up.

*These visas allow someone to reside in Spain but do not entitle to engage in a professional activity or employment. *(not my words interpret them as you wish)

I have a Canadian/British friend who was told that he could not work at all and had to show income from savings etc. He is moving to Portugal now, because the requirements are less and tax is lower, but only because he wants to just use it as a base to travel Europe anyway and extend his business dealings, residency for him is just a means to an end..


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

I read up on some jurisprudence on cases like this when the topic came up before, and one case sticks in my mind.
A couple (I think Russian but might be mistaken) had applied for an NLV whcih had been rejected.
They appealed against the rejection and the judge decided that the rejection was justified. 
Very briefly, the case for the rejection was that the man had stated that when in Spain he would be able to work for his existing clients if he needed to due to the nauture of his IT work being possible remotely.
The case for the appeal was that the couple met the requirements for the NLV economically speaking and hence the income from any work he might do was suplementary to the minimum and no relevant to the visa application.
But as stated, the judge sided with the consulate's decision to reject saying that the applicant had shown intent to break the terms of the visa in his comments about being able to work remotely.
That case constituites jurisprudence in Spain.


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## Barriej (Jul 23, 2012)

Overandout said:


> I read up on some jurisprudence on cases like this when the topic came up before, and one case sticks in my mind.
> A couple (I think Russian but might be mistaken) had applied for an NLV whcih had been rejected.
> They appealed against the rejection and the judge decided that the rejection was justified.
> Very briefly, the case for the rejection was that the man had stated that when in Spain he would be able to work for his existing clients if he needed to due to the nauture of his IT work being possible remotely.
> ...


Agreed. And just because something is not stated does not mean its legal. 

I think if you have the cash or savings available to fulfil the requirements, then gaining the visa would be legal.
But once working and filling a tax return here the authorities would then be asking questions after year one.
Also the TIE has different wording depending on what you are allowed to do.
Mine has 'live and work temporary' because Im 59 and we came over during Brexit. 
Our neighbour came here on an NLV and has 'live temporary only' on her TIE, she is the same age as me.


From the Canadian consulate (so the one the OP would refer to) is the following.

*These visas allow someone to reside in Spain but do not entitle to engage in a professional activity or employment.*

So from a normal law abiding uneducated individuals view like wot I is, its pretty cut n dried. 
*No professional activity (so no work even if remote) or employment (so no working remotely for your current employer either).*


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Yes but (I think I have posted this before) here is a link to a lawyer's website where they say that the NLV prohibits "actividad económica" which they state to mean "you cannot work for any company which operates in the country".



https://balcellsgroup.com/es/residencia-no-lucrativa/



This is not something which the law firm has invented, this has been the legal interpretation in the past (I was looking for jurisprudence but didn't find anything concrete) so although declaring in your visa application that you intend to work remotely is a sure fire way to be rejected, maybe working for a foreign company while you are here on an NLV isn't quite so "cut and dry, you are a criminal" as some people make it out to be....

As much as we don't like it, the law isn't always totally black and white.


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