# .Slowly slowly



## MaidenScotland

CAIRO — The men gathering outside the yellow mosque agreed: Adulterers should be stoned to death, the hands of thieves cut off.

"But not now," said Kareem Atta, waiting in a cool breeze for the sheik's car to roll up next to the Koran sellers. "Sharia law must be gradually put into place so it doesn't shock the system. You can't cut people's hands off if you first don't give them financial justice."

The young students, engineers and laborers are followers of Hazem Salah abu Ismail, a lawyer and holy man whose poetic blend of populism and ultraconservative Salafi Islam has turned him into a leading presidential candidate. Posters with Ismail's gray beard and boyish face seem to hang on every street and alley across this ancient city.

Ismail is at once provocative and soothing, in a breath switching from genial to fiery. He has suggested revoking Egypt'speace treaty with Israel and holds up Iran as an exemplar of defiance against the U.S. His hard-line rhetoric has nudged American officials closer to the more moderate Muslim Brotherhood, a sign of Washington's scrambling to keep pace with the tremors of the "Arab Spring."

"I will never become a puppet for the U.S. or Israel or any Western power," Ismail said in a recent speech. He added that the U.S. was funneling money to certain Egyptian candidates to "suit their interests" and he urged young Muslims to "spoil such a plot."

Ismail's candidacy, however, may be in jeopardy over an embarrassing link to America. His mother, Nawal Abdel Aziz Nour, who lived with his sister in the Los Angeles area, became a U.S. citizen before she died, according to California public records. That would make him ineligible to run. Ismail claims his mother held only a green card, not a U.S. passport. The election commission, which confirmed that Ismail's mother held an American passport, is expected to decide on whether to disqualify him in coming days.

Ismail's is a robust voice in the fractious political Islam that is spreading across an Egypt freed from three decades of Hosni Mubarak's secular rule. The movement's passions and designs on power are shaking leftists and non-Muslims but also altering the dynamics for Islamists and challenging the dominance of the Brotherhood.

That was evident last week when the Brotherhood, which controls parliament and had promised not to put forward a presidential candidate, broke its pledge and nominated Khairat Shater, a multimillionaire and longtime political prisoner who instantly became a front-runner. Shater represents the middle ground for Islamists, book-ended by Ismail's sharper conservatism and the liberal Islam of Abdel Moneim Aboul Fotouh, a former Brotherhood member.

Ismail and his competitors embody a new Egypt searching for a religiously resonant yet pragmatic brand of politics that can fix the nation's deep economic and social problems. Similar scenarios are enveloping rising Islamists in Tunisia, Libya and Yemen and will certainly factor in Syria if President Bashar Assad falls.

The son of a late prominent religious scholar, Ismail represented Egyptians, including his opponent Shater, in civil rights cases against the Mubarak government. He embraced last year's revolution before many other Islamists and has been a forceful critic of the ruling military council.

He's a favorite on talk shows and Internet videos, a charismatic speaker who can charm a university crowd as easily as he can raise cheers from millworkers in the provinces. He skims the edge of fundamentalism — he once suggested that he and Osama bin Laden shared the same ends, if not the means, to create an Islamic state — but connects with Egyptians' everyday worries.

"We live in dignity," is his slogan, which highlighted his recent call for Egyptians to each donate 72 pounds ($12) so the country could free itself of American influence by rejecting $1.3 billion in annualU.S. militaryaid.

Such prescriptions may not be widely popular in a country where more than 40% of the population is poor, but they encapsulate Egyptians' rising sense of pride. They also strike at a defiance toward the West that Ismail believes should encompass everyone from politicians to militants. He has said of Bin Laden: May God "be pleased with him and be merciful on him. I hope that God will accept him among believers, martyrs and righteous."

Ismail believes women should be veiled and segregated from men in the workplace. Egypt's lone female presidential candidate, Bothaina Kamel, recently referred to him as a "phenomenon similar to a sci-fi movie." But she added she would support Ismail ahead of secular presidential front-runner Amr Moussa, whom many regard as a throwback to the old regime.

Ismail's recurring message of the power of Islam to transform society was evident outside the Assad bin Forat mosque in Cairo, where he has preached for years. It is his wellspring and sanctuary and, now, an unofficial campaign office of pious men rushing with posters, T-shirts and signature sheets.

"I'm doing this for the sake of God so that we can have sharia law in Egypt," said Yasser Adel, a campaign volunteer. "We need someone with clean hands who knows his religion well and is not corrupt. We should gradually have an Islamic state like in Saudi Arabia, but this must come with respect for all minorities."

Such sentiment alarms women, liberals and non-Muslims anxious over Islamists' control of the legislature and a panel drafting a new constitution. But devotion guides many Egyptians who for years steeled themselves with religion against the state injustices.

The young at the mosque were excited, even surprised, that they could gather without fear of arrest. Theirs was a focused energy not only on their candidate but the prospect of what his election could mean to an Arab world in disarray.

"Egypt is the heart of the Islamic world and if Egypt rises religiously, the whole Muslim world will rise," said Ahmed Fathy, dressed in a pinstriped suit and holding the hand of his daughter. "Sharia means an end to poverty and the corruption that have left this country struggling."

As Fathy spoke, trucks and minivans bearing Ismail's image loaded placards and campaign literature and drove off into the night.

[email protected]

Amro Hassan in The Times' Cairo bureau contributed to this report.

Copyright © 2012, Los Angeles Times


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## canuck2010

Heh, it's going to be an interesting next few months.


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## Qsw

I am a Muslim, but I am also a liberal. A part of me wonders whether it is a good thing Abu Ismail is being disqualified this way. There is obviously a significant part of the Egyptian population that likes him and his views. It's important that the process accommodates everybody so that feelings of resentment are kept to a minimum. 

I am really hoping Egypt turns out more like Turkey/Malaysia and less like Saudi Arabia or Iran.


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## MaidenScotland

Qsw said:


> I am a Muslim, but I am also a liberal. A part of me wonders whether it is a good thing Abu Ismail is being disqualified this way. There is obviously a significant part of the Egyptian population that likes him and his views. It's important that the process accommodates everybody so that feelings of resentment are kept to a minimum.
> 
> I am really hoping Egypt turns out more like Turkey/Malaysia and less like Saudi Arabia or Iran.




The law is the law... and changing it to suit certain candidates should be behind us now.


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## aykalam

MaidenScotland said:


> The law is the law... and changing it to suit certain candidates should be behind us now.


Agreed. The problem right now is "The Law" (constitution) still has not been written, so we are making it up as we go along. The more I think about it the more I believe AlBaradei did a very smart thing by pullling out of the whole election fiasco. Give them rope...


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## MaidenScotland

I wonder if the national service requirements will be changed.
Mubarak brought in the disqualified if one of your parents is foreign to stop his son being called up.


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## MaidenScotland

aykalam said:


> Agreed. The problem right now is "The Law" (constitution) still has not been written, so we are making it up as we go along. The more I think about it the more I believe AlBaradei did a very smart thing by pullling out of the whole election fiasco. Give them rope...



And America gave them that rope.. they knew right from the start who his mother is and that she held an American passport, they kept quiet until they thought the time was right to leak the information. More manipulation from the west.


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## aykalam

MaidenScotland said:


> And America gave them that rope.. they knew right from the start who his mother is and that she held an American passport, they kept quiet until they thought the time was right to leak the information. More manipulation from the west.


I said it before, I would like to see some hard evidence of his mother's US nationality. I dislike him and his ideology, I'm happy he's no longer in the race, but I have many doubts about the whole process.


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## DeadGuy

Qsw said:


> ..........
> I am really hoping Egypt turns out more like Turkey/Malaysia and less like Saudi Arabia or Iran.


Don't think the Parliament in either Turkey or Malaysia tends to worry about banning porns and English classes while +70% of the population can't find fuel, gas, and plenty others can't even afford buying food.......:ranger:

So it seems like the chances for Egypt to turn out to be more like Turkey or Malaysia are pretty slim


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## DeadGuy

MaidenScotland said:


> And America gave them that rope.. they knew right from the start who his mother is and that she held an American passport, they kept quiet until they thought the time was right to leak the information. More manipulation from the west.


The guy simply LIED about the whole thing, he even turned the whole thing into a joke when people started mentioning that he's got an American sister and said "One day they'll say that I got a foriegn sister and maybe she'll be French"! And now whenever he's interviewed, he keeps going around it, but never actually denies the fact that his mom is an American, all he says is that the documents provided aren't enough to prove anything and that it's an American conspiracy  And now his idiotic poor naive supporters are willing to protest, sit in, and even start a WAR for him, and he won't come out to deny it on public, or tell them to go home!

The Yanks only responded to the Egyptian official's requests to provide information, and those idiots still blame them for "ruining the Islamic candidate's campaign"! So what you think would happen if the Americans just stepped forward and gave the documents away to the public without any official requests?

Personally speaking? I really can't see anything that "The West" did wrong in this situation, apart from actually allowing such low lives into The States AND granting them citizenship :ranger:


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## Qsw

MaidenScotland said:


> The law is the law... and changing it to suit certain candidates should be behind us now.


I completely agree, we should not be changing laws to suit certain candidates. Just to make it clear, I would not have been voting for Abu Ismail as I don't agree with any of the salafi ideology. I do not agree at all with the mixing of politics and religion.

But, I think it is important that the salafis get their favored candidate in the race. If he wins, then at least it is clear where the future of Egypt is headed. If he loses by a considerable margin, they may adjust their policies. Personally, I think his chances of winning are very slim.

Disqualifying him on technicalities would probably just lead to the salafis feeling as though they are not being given a fair chance. I suppose they should have nominated a backup candidate like the MB did.

I think most Egyptians would agree that this nationality law is a good one, so it should stand. I would have preferred a clean slate (Egyptian citizens, except for people with serious crimes on their record, and any lead NDP members), but everything is kind of being patched together right now I suppose.

I agree with aykalam though, the process needs to be shown as fair, and the evidence has to be rock solid and it has to be made public.


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## DeadGuy

aykalam said:


> I said it before, I would like to see some hard evidence of his mother's US nationality. I dislike him and his ideology, I'm happy he's no longer in the race, but I have many doubts about the whole process.


Don't really get the hard evidence bit in here? There are documents, official ones? :confused2:

For me him going around it and not being able to deny it and questioning the document's credibility instead, and his AMERICAN sister not denying it either is good enough to prove him a liar really.........:ranger:


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## Qsw

DeadGuy said:


> Don't really get the hard evidence bit in here? There are documents, official ones? :confused2:
> 
> For me him going around it and not being able to deny it and questioning the document's credibility instead, and his AMERICAN sister not denying it either is good enough to prove him a liar really.........:ranger:


I don't think anyone here believes there is a conspiracy against him, but people on the street may think differently. An official document repeatedly shown on TV and maybe even available for some limited public viewing should be enough to convince most people.

Of course, you still have some in the U.S. that think Obama was not born in Hawaii, so you never know... at least some hard evidence will convince most of the doubters.


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## aykalam

DeadGuy said:


> Don't really get the hard evidence bit in here? There are documents, official ones? :confused2:
> 
> For me him going around it and not being able to deny it and questioning the document's credibility instead, and his AMERICAN sister not denying it either is good enough to prove him a liar really.........:ranger:


Documents (including passports) are extremely easy to forge. In my "previous" life I dealt with ID docs on a daily basis, some fakes are amazingly good. Plus the onus should never be on him to prove his eligibility but on the prosecution to prove that he is not eligible to run in the presidential elections. So what would constitute "real" evidence? That's up to the accusers to figure out, of course. e.g. it would be fun if her U.S. naturalization ceremony had been video-ed :eyebrows:


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## DeadGuy

aykalam said:


> Documents (including passports) are extremely easy to forge. In my "previous" life I dealt with ID docs on a daily basis, some fakes are amazingly good. Plus the onus should never be on him to prove his eligibility but on the prosecution to prove that he is not eligible to run in the presidential elections. So what would constitute "real" evidence? That's up to the accusers to figure out, of course. e.g. it would be fun if her U.S. naturalization ceremony had been video-ed :eyebrows:




I'm kinda shocked to be reading this from a non Egyptian really :confused2:

The documents can be easily forged that's for sure, but we're talking about documents that are exchanged via official diplomatic channels in here, it's not like an anonymous source gave the documents to a TV producer or something, and I think that would be a form of a SOLID evidence :ranger:

He ONLY claimed his eligibility, but he never "proved" it, the only thing he did was questioning the documents' credibility and claiming that he's being framed, first by the committee, then by the committee AND the SCAF, and then America was added, and his last try when the committee showed the documents to some lame ar$e Salafi Sheikhs, he added those Salafi Sheikhs to the conspiracy! 

The guy is full of both contradictions, and sh!t! And now he told his naive supporters to start a sit in! And they're actually going for it :frusty:


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## DeadGuy

Qsw said:


> I don't think anyone here believes there is a conspiracy against him, but people on the street may think differently. An official document repeatedly shown on TV and maybe even available for some limited public viewing should be enough to convince most people.
> 
> Of course, you still have some in the U.S. that think Obama was not born in Hawaii, so you never know... at least some hard evidence will convince most of the doubters.


An official document, but American or Egyptian? Cause the idiot's arguing that American documents are only good in America.......


Documents shown repeatedly on TV doesn't make them less/more authentic........


And how do you suggest this limited public viewing process to be like? Everyone will wanna look.............Besides.........Call me a racist, an ar$e, whatever you wanna call me, but sorry to say this, most of his supporters can't even read Arabic........Mind you English..........So I don't think it would make any difference :ranger:

Let's keep things within reason please.......


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## DeadGuy

Qsw said:


> I don't think anyone here believes there is a conspiracy against him, but people on the street may think differently. An official document repeatedly shown on TV and maybe even available for some limited public viewing should be enough to convince most people.
> 
> Of course, you still have some in the U.S. that think Obama was not born in Hawaii, so you never know... at least some hard evidence will convince most of the doubters.


I'll be damned 

There you go Çáíæã ÇáÓÇÈÚ | ääÝÑÏ ÈäÔÑ ÇáãÓÊäÏÇÊ ÇáÑÓãíÉ ÇáÊì ÃÞÕÊ "ÃÈæ ÅÓãÇÚíá" Úä ÇáÑÆÇÓÉ

And it's on live TV right now too :ranger:

Let's see if he had enough, or he still wanna embarrass himself a bit more! Cause so far the guy showed nothing but pure stupidity, and a fake beard!


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## MaidenScotland

DeadGuy said:


> I'll be damned
> 
> There you go Çáíæã ÇáÓÇÈÚ | ääÝÑÏ ÈäÔÑ ÇáãÓÊäÏÇÊ ÇáÑÓãíÉ ÇáÊì ÃÞÕÊ "ÃÈæ ÅÓãÇÚíá" Úä ÇáÑÆÇÓÉ
> 
> And it's on live TV right now too :ranger:
> 
> Let's see if he had enough, or he still wanna embarrass himself a bit more! Cause so far the guy showed nothing but pure stupidity, and a fake beard!




and an uncovered mum


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## DeadGuy

DeadGuy said:


> I'll be damned
> 
> There you go Çáíæã ÇáÓÇÈÚ | ääÝÑÏ ÈäÔÑ ÇáãÓÊäÏÇÊ ÇáÑÓãíÉ ÇáÊì ÃÞÕÊ "ÃÈæ ÅÓãÇÚíá" Úä ÇáÑÆÇÓÉ
> 
> And it's on live TV right now too :ranger:
> 
> Let's see if he had enough, or he still wanna embarrass himself a bit more! Cause so far the guy showed nothing but pure stupidity, and a fake beard!


Bloody Hell!!!!!!!! Some of the comments are supporting the conspiracy theory still!

Basing on the picture of the applicant in the documents, her hair is not covered! Which means it's not his mum :frusty: :frusty: :frusty:


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## MaidenScotland

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink


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## DeadGuy

MaidenScotland said:


> and an uncovered mum


An American sister, an uncovered mum, a lying son of a b!tch! But it's still an American conspiracy against Hazem Salah Abu Ismael!


Shoot me! Right fu*kin' now :frusty:


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## MaidenScotland

DeadGuy said:


> An American sister, an uncovered mum, a lying son of a b!tch! But it's still an American conspiracy against Hazem Salah Abu Ismael!
> 
> 
> Shoot me! Right fu*kin' now :frusty:






America knew from day one about his sister/mother nationality.. for sure they have a nice big thick folder on this man and his relatives. I just find it od dthey sat on it


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## aykalam

DeadGuy said:


> I'm kinda shocked to be reading this from a non Egyptian really :confused2:
> 
> The documents can be easily forged that's for sure, but we're talking about documents that are exchanged via official diplomatic channels in here, it's not like an anonymous source gave the documents to a TV producer or something, and I think that would be a form of a SOLID evidence :ranger:
> 
> He ONLY claimed his eligibility, but he never "proved" it, the only thing he did was questioning the documents' credibility and claiming that he's being framed, first by the committee, then by the committee AND the SCAF, and then America was added, and his last try when the committee showed the documents to some lame ar$e Salafi Sheikhs, he added those Salafi Sheikhs to the conspiracy!
> 
> The guy is full of both contradictions, and sh!t! And now he told his naive supporters to start a sit in! And they're actually going for it :frusty:


are you saying that "official channels" would not provide false evidence if that was in their interest? :spy: that's a good one :clap2:

Look, the guy is a complete idiot, we all seem to agree on that, I won't him out of the elections, even better: out of the country. But, if democratic ground rules are to be established, we need to be serious about the process. Democracy is not about putting a ballot paper in a box every 4 years, it is about getting the system right in the first place and making the rules fair for everyone, even utter morons like this one. Hell, Western democracies are full of charlatans too!

I agree with what you say about his supporters, they have now announced they will do whatever their leader asks of them. I hope he tells them to go jump of the 6th October Bridge


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## MaidenScotland

aykalam said:


> are you saying that "official channels" would not provide false evidence if that was in their interest? :spy: that's a good one :clap2:
> 
> Look, the guy is a complete idiot, we all seem to agree on that, I won't him out of the elections, even better: out of the country. But, if democratic ground rules are to be established, we need to be serious about the process. Democracy is not about putting a ballot paper in a box every 4 years, it is about getting the system right in the first place and making the rules fair for everyone, even utter morons like this one. Hell, Western democracies are full of charlatans too!
> 
> I agree with what you say about his supporters, they have now announced they will do whatever their leader asks of them. I hope he tells them to go jump of the 6th October Bridge




I will get my camera primed


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## aykalam

DeadGuy said:


> An American sister, an uncovered mum, a lying son of a b!tch! But it's still an American conspiracy against Hazem Salah Abu Ismael!
> 
> 
> Shoot me! Right fu*kin' now :frusty:


maalish :spit:


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## DeadGuy

MaidenScotland said:


> America knew from day one about his sister/mother nationality.. for sure they have a nice big thick folder on this man and his relatives. I just find it od dthey sat on it


Sorry Maiden but I do not support the "West" theory in here, like I said earlier, it's done through official routes and upon Egyptian officials' requests, and it's still an American conspiracy...........So why would they even wanna just "step forward" and giving those idiots what some might consider a reason to have at least a reasonable doubt that it is a conspiracy, and the risk the American nationals in Egypt might be in as a reaction to that........

Besides.............I'm sure SCAF did know about it too.........Not only the US :ranger:


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## MaidenScotland

DeadGuy said:


> Sorry Maiden but I do not support the "West" theory in here, like I said earlier, it's done through official routes and upon Egyptian officials' requests, and it's still an American conspiracy...........So why would they even wanna just "step forward" and giving those idiots what some might consider a reason to have at least a reasonable doubt that it is a conspiracy, and the risk the American nationals in Egypt might be in as a reaction to that........
> 
> Besides.............I'm sure SCAF did know about it too.........Not only the US :ranger:




of course SCAF knew... but they couldn't get their hands on the papers until people started asking questions.
..it's the timing I am questioning


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## MaidenScotland

I do not like the man and what he stands for but I do find it ridiculous that someone cannot hold certain positions because members of his family decided to take another passport.. it's a ridiculous ruling IMO but it is the ruling so it must stand.

What would have happened if Gamal had tried to be president under this rule? They would have rewritten it lol


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## DeadGuy

aykalam said:


> are you saying that "official channels" would not provide false evidence if that was in their interest? :spy: that's a good one :clap2:
> 
> Look, the guy is a complete idiot, we all seem to agree on that, I won't him out of the elections, even better: out of the country. But, if democratic ground rules are to be established, we need to be serious about the process. Democracy is not about putting a ballot paper in a box every 4 years, it is about getting the system right in the first place and making the rules fair for everyone, even utter morons like this one. Hell, Western democracies are full of charlatans too!
> 
> I agree with what you say about his supporters, they have now announced they will do whatever their leader asks of them. I hope he tells them to go jump of the 6th October Bridge


What I was saying is that the Yanks are too smart to do something like providing illegal documents through their diplomats...........If they wanted to push him out of the way, they could do a lot better than that :ranger:

I still can't see anything wrong with the process, he applied for presidency and claimed that he meets all the parameters, he even signed a paper saying so, I can't really blame the SCAF, the Americans -Or anyone as a matter of fact- for "sitting on it" as Maiden put it, they are not obligated to reveal his mum's nationality information before he admits his papers..........And what happened after that is a textbook procedure actually, the committee actually used one of the articles that Hazim himself was demanding his folks to approve in the constitutional amendments last March (Article 28), he just thought he'd go around another part of the Egyptian law that's all, but he couldn't :ranger:

6th October Bridge is fine, any bridge but not Kasr el Neel's :lol:


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## DeadGuy

MaidenScotland said:


> I do not like the man and what he stands for but I do find it ridiculous that someone cannot hold certain positions because members of his family decided to take another passport.. it's a ridiculous ruling IMO but it is the ruling so it must stand.
> 
> What would have happened if Gamal had tried to be president under this rule? They would have rewritten it lol


Family members' nationality bit was added specifically to rule out Ahmed Zweel, and probably El Baradi too :ranger:

That happened after the revolution and they could have ignored the dual nationality thing and delete it, but it was mainly Islamists' request, and now it backfired at them


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## MaidenScotland

DeadGuy said:


> Family members' nationality bit was added specifically to rule out Ahmed Zweel, and probably El Baradi too :ranger:
> 
> That happened after the revolution and it was mainly Islamists' request, but now it backfired at them




but he would now qualify to play football for America,



ahh was unware it was a new ruling,


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## DeadGuy

MaidenScotland said:


> but he would now qualify to play football for America,
> 
> 
> 
> ahh was unware it was a new ruling,


To be honest I'm not sure whether it's a new one or an old one that wasn't replaced with a better form, but what I am totally sure about is that there was a huge stir about it cause many of the decent politicians wanted this stupid rule to be out of the equation, just to give more space for more candidates, but the Islamists were the ones who moaned about it........And that was after the revolution


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## Qsw

DeadGuy said:


> Sorry Maiden but I do not support the "West" theory in here, like I said earlier, it's done through official routes and upon Egyptian officials' requests, and it's still an American conspiracy...........So why would they even wanna just "step forward" and giving those idiots what some might consider a reason to have at least a reasonable doubt that it is a conspiracy, and the risk the American nationals in Egypt might be in as a reaction to that........
> 
> Besides.............I'm sure SCAF did know about it too.........Not only the US :ranger:


It doesn't seem too hard to find out, so its certainly odd that it was not known/revealed for so long. I guess this is one of the reasons why a free press is so important, something like this would have been known right away in the U.S. for any serious candidate. Maybe some of the good journalists here tried to get information but ran into some sort of roadblock, or the people responsible for research didn't evaluate this sort of possibility thoroughly enough.

It's probably too late to nominate a backup salafi candidate now, and based on what I've been reading they are not likely to support the MB. That may change once this disqualification is settled in their minds. I don't think a liberal/moderate candidate has a chance against those two factions uniting behind one candidate :/ I hope there are enough liberal/moderate Muslims like me who can join up with moderate Christians and other minorities to put a moderate/liberal candidate in power.

Does anybody even know how the leading candidate will be decided? Is it simply the number of votes, or is there something else to it?


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## aykalam

Qsw said:


> It doesn't seem too hard to find out, so its certainly odd that it was not known/revealed for so long. I guess this is one of the reasons why a free press is so important, something like this would have been known right away in the U.S. for any serious candidate. Maybe some of the good journalists here tried to get information but ran into some sort of roadblock, or the people responsible for research didn't evaluate this sort of possibility thoroughly enough.
> 
> It's probably too late to nominate a backup salafi candidate now, and based on what I've been reading they are not likely to support the MB. That may change once this disqualification is settled in their minds. I don't think a liberal/moderate candidate has a chance against those two factions uniting behind one candidate :/ I hope there are enough liberal/moderate Muslims like me who can join up with moderate Christians and other minorities to put a moderate/liberal candidate in power.
> 
> Does anybody even know how the leading candidate will be decided? Is it simply the number of votes, or is there something else to it?


The 2 candidates with the highest number of votes will go head to head in the run-offs. This link provides a timeline of the whole process

allAfrica.com: Egypt: Presidential Elections Timeline Is Out


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## Qsw

BBC News - Appeal of Egypt's Salafist, Hazem Abu Ismail

Interesting article on Abu Ismail... I do think his popularity is being overstated in this article though... at least I hope so. This is the first time I hear of some of his ideas, they seem to vary from weird to disgusting.

It doesn't seem like he will back down from this ruling, I would even be surprised if he encourages his supporters to vote for another candidate. Hopefully this will end peacefully...

I really hope they can send a backup candidate, I am now genuinely curious to see whether this is what a large majority of Egyptians really want, or if it is just a vocal minority. An electoral defeat would be the best possible outcome here.


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## expatagogo

Of course it's a conspiracy! Nobody ever brags that one of their family members has US citizenship, just as they don't throw parties to celebrate it. There's no doubt the folks in D.C. were sitting on their bogus and contrived documents, waiting for the right moment to launch them at the Egyptian media - probably on the back of a shark swimming in the Red Sea.

/sarcasm

This guy is a hypocrite, for many reasons, starting with his anti-America seething, as if the US wasn't the place Salafis ran to so they could escape religious persecution.

Personally, I hope he keeps running his mouth because the more his lips move, the easier it is to see him for what he really is.


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## MaidenScotland

No country should be run by religion as all that is doing is saying.. your religion is wrong and mine is right.
No country should be run and have it's population living in poverty as poverty always tills the ground that religion is sown on..


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## MaidenScotland

DeadGuy said:


> To be honest I'm not sure whether it's a new one or an old one that wasn't replaced with a better form, but what I am totally sure about is that there was a huge stir about it cause many of the decent politicians wanted this stupid rule to be out of the equation, just to give more space for more candidates, but the Islamists were the ones who moaned about it........And that was after the revolution




ike most Salafis, Abu Ismail was one of the avid supporters of a stipulation in the March 2011 constitutional amendments that barred current or former dual citizens whose parents or spouse carried another citizenship from contesting the presidency, most likely in a bid to sideline potential liberal candidates.

Today, that same issue has not only emerged to bite him in the proverbial backside,


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## swemuslimah

I just wanted to say this, - why can't some people talk/write with a little more respect..

First of all, nobody here except the liberal muslim maybe, seems to know anything about real islamic rule. Secondly, these so called "salafis" are not monkeys or stupid people. It feels really bad that you talk so bad about regular people. Nobody wants anything bad for anyone else. Only because you read something it doesn't mean it's true. And most things are just assumptions anyway. I'm from sweden but still I am a muslim woman and know pretty much about real islamic rule.

When islam came and they lived by islamic rule (in the early era with the first muslims who practiced islam as it should be practiced), everybody was happy - jews,christians and muslims. Jews and christians was allowd to live freely, practice their religions as they wished and even have their own court-systems! They could go to muslim courts also if they wanted but the true fact is that they didn't have to. And the poor got money from the 'state'/leader, mothers got money to support their children, old people who couldn't work got money to be able to live. It was really peaceful. And to note is that hijab is not something that is from the countrys law, that every woman have to put it on. Hijab is from islam but it's something the muslim woman should choose only to come closer to God (not for someone elses sake).

And many punishments you have heard of is so hard to apply if following true islamic rule. For example, if a thief has stolen food or something because he is hungry or need to feed his family- does his hand be cut off? No, because in fact it is the states fault that he even needed to steal. And if he would repent to God from doing this crime, he shouldn't be punished either.
About the one who cheats on his or hers partner, the punishment is close to impossible to happen. Because according to islamic rules , there has to be 4 witnesses who actually see that the penis go in to the vagina. It doesn't suffice that someone has seen two people together, even kissing or even coming out from the same bedroom. It has to be quite visual, and Four witnesses as well! and it doesn't stop there. If for example, one makes a pledge/promise that he know that it happened, says it four times, and the other makes a pledge/promise that it didnt happen and says this four times. The whole case gets dropped and nothing happens. And the wrath of God is upon the one who lied.

These are just a few examples to show you that true islamic rule isn't barbaric or bad. Just so that you know the difference from* Real Sharia law and "Peoples sharia law"*. One good example too is that in saudi arabia they don't have true islamic law, just one example is that they have a king a kingdom. Just this goes against islamic rule where the leader is to be chosen, and has to be someone with the best of morals and knowledge about true islamic rule.

Peace!


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## canuck2010

In a country where over a third of the population is illiterate, there isn't much hope of people acting honest and transparent when it comes to instituting some kind of idealized religious rule.


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## MaidenScotland

swemuslimah said:


> I just wanted to say this, - why can't some people talk/write with a little more respect..
> 
> First of all, nobody here except the liberal muslim maybe, seems to know anything about real islamic rule. Secondly, these so called "salafis" are not monkeys or stupid people. It feels really bad that you talk so bad about regular people. Nobody wants anything bad for anyone else. Only because you read something it doesn't mean it's true. And most things are just assumptions anyway. I'm from sweden but still I am a muslim woman and know pretty much about real islamic rule.
> 
> When islam came and they lived by islamic rule (in the early era with the first muslims who practiced islam as it should be practiced), everybody was happy - jews,christians and muslims. Jews and christians was allowd to live freely, practice their religions as they wished and even have their own court-systems! They could go to muslim courts also if they wanted but the true fact is that they didn't have to. And the poor got money from the 'state'/leader, mothers got money to support their children, old people who couldn't work got money to be able to live. It was really peaceful. And to note is that hijab is not something that is from the countrys law, that every woman have to put it on. Hijab is from islam but it's something the muslim woman should choose only to come closer to God (not for someone elses sake).
> 
> And many punishments you have heard of is so hard to apply if following true islamic rule. For example, if a thief has stolen food or something because he is hungry or need to feed his family- does his hand be cut off? No, because in fact it is the states fault that he even needed to steal. And if he would repent to God from doing this crime, he shouldn't be punished either.
> About the one who cheats on his or hers partner, the punishment is close to impossible to happen. Because according to islamic rules , there has to be 4 witnesses who actually see that the penis go in to the vagina. It doesn't suffice that someone has seen two people together, even kissing or even coming out from the same bedroom. It has to be quite visual, and Four witnesses as well! and it doesn't stop there. If for example, one makes a pledge/promise that he know that it happened, says it four times, and the other makes a pledge/promise that it didnt happen and says this four times. The whole case gets dropped and nothing happens. And the wrath of God is upon the one who lied.
> 
> These are just a few examples to show you that true islamic rule isn't barbaric or bad. Just so that you know the difference from* Real Sharia law and "Peoples sharia law"*. One good example too is that in saudi arabia they don't have true islamic law, just one example is that they have a king a kingdom. Just this goes against islamic rule where the leader is to be chosen, and has to be someone with the best of morals and knowledge about true islamic rule.
> 
> Peace!




Firstly.. respect has to be earned.
Secondly most of the people on this forum have lived in this country for many years, Deadguy is Egyptian and we speak as we find the place we are living in.

Thirdly.. please do not tell us what is in the Koran as this only leads to heated discussions that get out of hand. 


Maiden.


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## txlstewart

I believe in helping those who have fallen on hard times, but I truly believe that too many handouts can destroy a person's incentive to be self-sufficient.

Sent from my iPhone using ExpatForum


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## hhaddad

Although we know the start of islam and the way it's supposed to be we can only see what is happening today.
When islamists take over the greater part of Mali to make it an Islamist state and the Boko Haram (islamist group) continue to kill Christians in Nigeria.

The Talaban in Afghanistan. The so called honour killings in Pakistan and India and other predomantly muslim countries what are we supposed to think??


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## aykalam

Ladies and gentlemen, I dare ANYONE on this forum to explain why I should respect this moron


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## expatagogo

aykalam said:


> Ladies and gentlemen, I dare ANYONE on this forum to explain why I should respect this moron
> 
> Meaning of the word Pepsi. - YouTube


Find of the day!

"A penny is one thousandth of a dollar." He's obviously a brilliant economist, too.


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## Qsw

swemuslimah said:


> I just wanted to say this, - why can't some people talk/write with a little more respect..
> 
> First of all, nobody here except the liberal muslim maybe, seems to know anything about real islamic rule. Secondly, these so called "salafis" are not monkeys or stupid people. It feels really bad that you talk so bad about regular people. Nobody wants anything bad for anyone else. Only because you read something it doesn't mean it's true. And most things are just assumptions anyway. I'm from sweden but still I am a muslim woman and know pretty much about real islamic rule.
> 
> When islam came and they lived by islamic rule (in the early era with the first muslims who practiced islam as it should be practiced), everybody was happy - jews,christians and muslims. Jews and christians was allowd to live freely, practice their religions as they wished and even have their own court-systems! They could go to muslim courts also if they wanted but the true fact is that they didn't have to. And the poor got money from the 'state'/leader, mothers got money to support their children, old people who couldn't work got money to be able to live. It was really peaceful. And to note is that hijab is not something that is from the countrys law, that every woman have to put it on. Hijab is from islam but it's something the muslim woman should choose only to come closer to God (not for someone elses sake).
> 
> And many punishments you have heard of is so hard to apply if following true islamic rule. For example, if a thief has stolen food or something because he is hungry or need to feed his family- does his hand be cut off? No, because in fact it is the states fault that he even needed to steal. And if he would repent to God from doing this crime, he shouldn't be punished either.
> About the one who cheats on his or hers partner, the punishment is close to impossible to happen. Because according to islamic rules , there has to be 4 witnesses who actually see that the penis go in to the vagina. It doesn't suffice that someone has seen two people together, even kissing or even coming out from the same bedroom. It has to be quite visual, and Four witnesses as well! and it doesn't stop there. If for example, one makes a pledge/promise that he know that it happened, says it four times, and the other makes a pledge/promise that it didnt happen and says this four times. The whole case gets dropped and nothing happens. And the wrath of God is upon the one who lied.
> 
> These are just a few examples to show you that true islamic rule isn't barbaric or bad. Just so that you know the difference from* Real Sharia law and "Peoples sharia law"*. One good example too is that in saudi arabia they don't have true islamic law, just one example is that they have a king a kingdom. Just this goes against islamic rule where the leader is to be chosen, and has to be someone with the best of morals and knowledge about true islamic rule.
> 
> Peace!


I like the thoughts behind your post. As you said though, the "People's Sharia Law" often ends up being far from what "Real Sharia". This is one of the reasons I dislike mixing religion and politics; it turns politics into a religious debate, when I think religion should be a private matter.

I try to avoid unnecessary bashing of anybody, since it doesn't really lead to anything useful. Unfortunately not everybody follows this policy 

I agree with you completely on the true Islamic law. What is really needed is a strong Islamic voice/institution that makes a convincing religious argument to sway people away from these extreme interpretations.

About Abu Ismail himself, I've been reviewing more interviews/etc. today, and basically I found what I expected. I did see why he is being described as "charismatic". Being a lawyer he has learned how to re-frame and attack his opponents in just the right way to make it seem as though he is being friendly and calm. I found it interesting, in one interview he "slams" a piece of paper on his desk as he is starting to respond to a question. I personally don't find him charismatic, but I can see why some people would.

Apparently he is backing away from the Pepsi thing, but trying to throw up enough alternative explanations to his argument, like claiming that the person who created "pepsin" was a Mason, and this Mason somehow has a link to Judaism, and wanted to support Israel. He tried to link him to the beginning of the Zionist movement basically. He brought this up while someone was questioning him about it, and also seemed to insinuate how "ignorant" (gahala) some people can be when searching the net for facts. Also the S now stands for serving. 

Oh well, at least it won't be a boring election season. I just hope no violence comes out of his disqualification.


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## DeadGuy

swemuslimah said:


> I just wanted to say this, - why can't some people talk/write with a little more respect..
> 
> First of all, nobody here except the liberal muslim maybe, seems to know anything about real islamic rule. Secondly, these so called "salafis" are not monkeys or stupid people. It feels really bad that you talk so bad about regular people. Nobody wants anything bad for anyone else. Only because you read something it doesn't mean it's true. And most things are just assumptions anyway. I'm from sweden but still I am a muslim woman and know pretty much about real islamic rule.
> 
> When islam came and they lived by islamic rule (in the early era with the first muslims who practiced islam as it should be practiced), everybody was happy - jews,christians and muslims. Jews and christians was allowd to live freely, practice their religions as they wished and even have their own court-systems! They could go to muslim courts also if they wanted but the true fact is that they didn't have to. And the poor got money from the 'state'/leader, mothers got money to support their children, old people who couldn't work got money to be able to live. It was really peaceful. And to note is that hijab is not something that is from the countrys law, that every woman have to put it on. Hijab is from islam but it's something the muslim woman should choose only to come closer to God (not for someone elses sake).
> 
> And many punishments you have heard of is so hard to apply if following true islamic rule. For example, if a thief has stolen food or something because he is hungry or need to feed his family- does his hand be cut off? No, because in fact it is the states fault that he even needed to steal. And if he would repent to God from doing this crime, he shouldn't be punished either.
> About the one who cheats on his or hers partner, the punishment is close to impossible to happen. Because according to islamic rules , there has to be 4 witnesses who actually see that the penis go in to the vagina. It doesn't suffice that someone has seen two people together, even kissing or even coming out from the same bedroom. It has to be quite visual, and Four witnesses as well! and it doesn't stop there. If for example, one makes a pledge/promise that he know that it happened, says it four times, and the other makes a pledge/promise that it didnt happen and says this four times. The whole case gets dropped and nothing happens. And the wrath of God is upon the one who lied.
> 
> These are just a few examples to show you that true islamic rule isn't barbaric or bad. Just so that you know the difference from* Real Sharia law and "Peoples sharia law"*. One good example too is that in saudi arabia they don't have true islamic law, just one example is that they have a king a kingdom. Just this goes against islamic rule where the leader is to be chosen, and has to be someone with the best of morals and knowledge about true islamic rule.
> 
> Peace!



Won't even try to comment on the "early days of Islam" bit, cause even if your claims were true, it's not the case anymore.........

But the Hijab bit.........Will pretend that what you're saying is true.........I'm sure you do realize that people -Both males and females- are born butt naked (Pardon my language, but it's true, no one comes out dressed, at all!) and in all religions, including Islam, babies are believed to really "close" to God and to be angels, yet they come out butt naked! So I think it would only be ridiculous to try and connect how close you are to God to how many layers of cloth someone got on, it's 2 complete different issues!.........But anyway.........If you research more about Hijab, you'd probably find out that the main reason for it to be a must is to make females "less attractive" to guys, and that's just the nice polite civil way to put it.......

But if you really think KSA is not an ideal Islamic country like every other Muslim around the world does then you should be talking to other Muslims about that, not to those who are not Muslims.........When all Muslims agree on what's REALLY Islamic and what's not, they can try and start applying it.........But till then, I, as a non Muslim, am gonna believe what I'm WITNESSING, not what anyone's trying to convince me with.......Or shove down my throat!

And you know something? ALL the presidential candidates in the coming elections are Muslims, and many of them are depending on Islamic agendas for their campaigns, so if it was a "War against Islam" as you're trying to make it sound like, then haven't you asked yourself why is it only this IDIOT and his naive supporters that are causing such a stir? 

Shalom :ranger:


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## DeadGuy

aykalam said:


> Ladies and gentlemen, I dare ANYONE on this forum to explain why I should respect this moron
> 
> Meaning of the word Pepsi. - YouTube


You should "respect" him for his ability to manipulate each and every IDIOT that supports him, and trust me, they aren't few :spit:


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## expatagogo

Qsw said:


> This is one of the reasons I dislike mixing religion and politics; it turns politics into a religious debate, when I think religion should be a private matter.


There's a good reason why Thomas Jefferson was adamant that "Church and State" be separate; he contended that if religion governs, government will control religion.

And that is what happens.

There has been a lot of talk (and maybe even hope) that Egypt will follow "the Turkish model," however that appears to be without much thought as to what it really is - sheikhs are government employees and the government controls sheikhs' sermons, particularly on Fridays. Is that Sharia, or is that a contemporary example of Jeffersonian wisdom?


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## JayCT

expatagogo said:


> There's a good reason why Thomas Jefferson was adamant that "Church and State" be separate; he contended that if religion governs, government will control religion.
> 
> And that is what happens.
> 
> There has been a lot of talk (and maybe even hope) that Egypt will follow "the Turkish model," however that appears to be without much thought as to what it really is - sheikhs are government employees and the government controls sheikhs' sermons, particularly on Fridays. Is that Sharia, or is that a contemporary example of Jeffersonian wisdom?


Jefferson was quite right. Though we have to remember the "Turkish model", meaning strict gov't control on religious institutions, education and preaches was established in the beginning of the last century, to transform an old fashioned empire where religion played an important civil and administrative role, and its people into a western type, "modern" nation state by a single party -almost- dictatorship, in an effort of establishing a Protestant Islam if you will... Which in some way has been succeeded. Today, it is rather difficult to say for Turkey if it is the main reason behind all the troubles Turkey has been facing in internal politics or it is what (looking from Egypt) makes her a much better democracy and economy with a more advanced socio-political agenda (like the "gay rights") than the other countries in the region with a vastly Muslim population. Therefore, I do not know if the Turkish model can be used as an example for today's Egypt. Surely, the "Turkish model" was not so democratical and so secular but somehow it has managed to create a sense of proper, real secularism which is what has been being demanded by the Turkish people. It has managed to create a country where religion is considered something individual (I still feel funny and don't know what to say when people ask me if I am Muslim... I am a non-believer. Which is something quite easily possible in Turkey and not so possible in Egypt.), it has managed to create a society which respects privacy, which considers many simple things as being able to enjoy your raki and music and your swimming suits in the summer on the beautiful beaches and having boy/girlfriends as birth rights.


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## MaidenScotland

JayCT said:


> Jefferson was quite right. Though we have to remember the "Turkish model", meaning strict gov't control on religious institutions, education and preaches was established in the beginning of the last century, to transform an old fashioned empire where religion played an important civil and administrative role, and its people into a western type, "modern" nation state by a single party -almost- dictatorship, in an effort of establishing a Protestant Islam if you will... Which in some way has been succeeded. Today, it is rather difficult to say for Turkey if it is the main reason behind all the troubles Turkey has been facing in internal politics or it is what (looking from Egypt) makes her a much better democracy and economy with a more advanced socio-political agenda (like the "gay rights") than the other countries in the region with a vastly Muslim population. Therefore, I do not know if the Turkish model can be used as an example for today's Egypt. Surely, the "Turkish model" was not so democratical and so secular but somehow it has managed to create a sense of proper, real secularism which is what has been being demanded by the Turkish people. It has managed to create a country where religion is considered something individual (I still feel funny and don't know what to say when people ask me if I am Muslim... I am a non-believer. Which is something quite easily possible in Turkey and not so possible in Egypt.), it has managed to create a society which respects privacy, which considers many simple things as being able to enjoy your raki and music and your swimming suits in the summer on the beautiful beaches and having boy/girlfriends as birth rights.




Egypt seems to want to go back in time not forward.. maybe I should stand for the Pharonic party and lets all go back to those days


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## JayCT

MaidenScotland said:


> Egypt seems to want to go back in time not forward.. maybe I should stand for the Pharonic party and lets all go back to those days


You would get my vote, if I had one!.. But seriously, in those days, too, the state controlled the religion. Have Egyptians ever experienced a secular rule?.. Do they even know what secularism means?.. How it secures the liberties of the believers as well?


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## marimar

MaidenScotland said:


> Egypt seems to want to go back in time not forward.. maybe I should stand for the Pharonic party and lets all go back to those days


You couldn't do a worse job than what they seem to be doing now, I bet the people who died for the revolution must be turning in their graves to see the circus that the peoples revolution has been turned into. 
I wonder if all the brainwashed are now starting to see how the MB and such are turning all things in their favour, who will be left to vote for?, someone from the MB and one from the Salafists oh yes and one liberal who has been with the MB for 37 years but now "claims" to be an independant....who is he fooling??!!


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## DeadGuy

> Tuesday, April's 24th, 2012, 22:31,
> 
> Sheikh Hazem Salah Abu Ismael, who was denied from running for presidency, have _revealed_ the reason for his absence from participating in the sit-in organized by his supporters in Tahrir Square, an injured left foot that was caused by falling off the stairs on the Supreme Committee for the presidential elections' HQ while he was filing a complaint against its decision, which, by doctors' orders, prevents him from moving.
> 
> In his statement, which was delivered to his supporters who are sitting-in in Tahrir Square through a phone call, Abu Ismael he said that _the presidency's train overtook him due to the lack of time to prove the lies of the committee _according to his words, he added that he's trying to invalidate the committee's decision now so he'd be back to the race.
> 
> Abu Ismael called on his supporters to rally more crowds into Tahrir Square and to increase the numbers of tents in there, _cause they_ (his supporters) _are the only important "thing" on the Square's front_, he also said that he's preparing to unite all the crowds so that the country's history would witness _a great event_ in the coming days.
> 
> He also said, _Allah has sent us a person named Hazem, and Hazem is only a piece of cloth that we put on a stage; the value is not of that piece of cloth, but is of the message that was sent with it._
> 
> Abu Ismael added: We are determined to go back to the _public guarding_ which is what you are doing now (Meaning their sitting-in) cause it's Allah's Sunnah, pointing that last Friday's Million's march was made to rally the population and to distract them from _the main matters_ and to disperse the crowd and keep them away from the truth, pointing out that he was aware of a _major surprise_ that was being prepared by the presidential committee, and his last words were demanding his supporters to keep on rallying crowds, even in holidays


Translated from the Arabic El Youm El Sabee, Çáíæã ÇáÓÇÈÚ | ÃÈæ ÅÓãÇÚíá áÃäÕÇÑå: ÅÕÇÈÉ Ýì ÞÏãì ãäÚÊäì ãä ÇáãÔÇÑßÉ Ýì ÇáÇÚÊÕÇã

Injured foot........Great events coming.......Allah's sent.........Pieces of cloths.......I think it's a head injury.............Not a foot one


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## aykalam

This guy needs a lobotomy


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## expatagogo

aykalam said:


> This guy needs a lobotomy


The best thing that could happen to Egypt is that he keep right on talking.


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## Qsw

expatagogo said:


> There's a good reason why Thomas Jefferson was adamant that "Church and State" be separate; he contended that if religion governs, government will control religion.
> 
> And that is what happens.
> 
> There has been a lot of talk (and maybe even hope) that Egypt will follow "the Turkish model," however that appears to be without much thought as to what it really is - sheikhs are government employees and the government controls sheikhs' sermons, particularly on Fridays. Is that Sharia, or is that a contemporary example of Jeffersonian wisdom?


The Turkish model was popular initially, but I think most are realizing it probably wouldn't work in Egypt. I don't think the majority of Egyptians Muslims are in favor of a secular government. At the same time though, I think most are not in favor of direct religious interference in their daily lives, especially not by force. 

Jefferson was spot on, government control of Friday sermons has been going on for a long time. In the old days, the Friday prayers would mention the name of the caliph/sultan. It was a way of asserting political power even when they were ruling from distant places. Sharia probably takes the side of religious independence from politics, if it takes a side at all.

There is a long struggle ahead between moderate Islamic views and those supported by salafis/wahhabis. Moderates cannot afford to give up any ground, because it seems that once that happens in religious debates, it is extremely difficult to recover.


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