# Corruption! A summary of the Caso Gúrtel



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

You may have noticed there's a massive court case going on in Spain, with politicians all over the country being charged with accepting bribes in exchange for contracts. The businessman Francisco Correa admitted live on TV yesterday that he'd handed over cash in plain brown envelopes and a percentage of it went to the secret slush fund of the PP (Spain's conservative party). Here's a quick summary in English.

Kickbacks-for-contracts scandal: Corruption ringleader admits paying bribes, passing funds to Popular Party | In English | EL PAÍS


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> You may have noticed there's a massive court case going on in Spain, with politicians all over the country being charged with accepting bribes in exchange for contracts. The businessman Francisco Correa admitted live on TV yesterday that he'd handed over cash in plain brown envelopes and a percentage of it went to the secret slush fund of the PP (Spain's conservative party). Here's a quick summary in English.
> 
> Kickbacks-for-contracts scandal: Corruption ringleader admits paying bribes, passing funds to Popular Party | In English | EL PAÍS


I was listening to him speaking on the radio today. Two sad things come to mind. One is that most people will not be surprised by this. Most people could see the corruption from a mile off including politicians, judges, business people, bakers, English teachers  and factory workers. Secondly it's very sad to think that the PP will in all probablity be leading this country in the not too distant future because for some unfathomable reason voters still vote for this party:noidea:. 
Oh and here's sad point number 3. It seems that for all the people who think that the PP is corrupt, (and it does appear to be The Most Corrupt party even though none of them are as white as snow; more like slush that's being lying around for a couple of days on the side of the road) Mr Rajoy is getting away scot free up til now. Is it really possible that all this corruption was going on around him and he didn't know/ didn't participate?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

You know I am beginning to think that I have been a complete and utter fool working for a living, working long hours for measly rewards. I should have been a politician and had riches beyond compare.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Your "problem" Baldi is being decent and having a conscience.

No chance of making it as a politician


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Rabbitcat said:


> Your "problem" Baldi is being decent and having a conscience.
> 
> No chance of making it as a politician


You could be right there. I did successfully nail a couple of corrupt individuals during my working life because I would always stand up for what I believed was right.


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## The Skipper (Nov 26, 2014)

The one good thing you can say about all this is that Spain does at least catch quite a few of the corrupt businessmen and politicians and puts them on trial ... and many end up behind bars! In the UK it is very rare that "top" people who are corrupt get brought to justice. Just look at the crooked UK bankers whose greed, dishonesty and incompetence brought the country to its knees in 2008. The worst "punishment" was the loss of a knighthood but they were all still left with huge pensions! I bet Rodrigo Rato must look with envy at his British counterparts!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

The Skipper said:


> The one good thing you can say about all this is that Spain does at least catch quite a few of the corrupt businessmen and politicians and puts them on trial ... and many end up behind bars! In the UK it is very rare that "top" people who are corrupt get brought to justice. Just look at the crooked UK bankers whose greed, dishonesty and incompetence brought the country to its knees in 2008. The worst "punishment" was the loss of a knighthood but they were all still left with huge pensions! I bet Rodrigo Rato must look with envy at his British counterparts!


Yes, Spain is finally attempting to bring some of these rogues to justice, though it's a bit late in the day and many of them, aided by their friends in high places, will manage to wriggle through the net. As PW said, the corruption-riddled Partido Popular will most likely continue to govern the country for the next four years.


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## The Skipper (Nov 26, 2014)

Alcalaina said:


> Yes, Spain is finally attempting to bring some of these rogues to justice, though it's a bit late in the day and many of them, aided by their friends in high places, will manage to wriggle through the net. As PW said, the corruption-riddled Partido Popular will most likely continue to govern the country for the next four years.


Yes, and the corruption-riddled PSOE continues to rule in Andalucia! They are all as bad as each other in my opinion.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I was listening to him speaking on the radio today. Two sad things come to mind. One is that most people will not be surprised by this. Most people could see the corruption from a mile off including politicians, judges, business people, bakers, English teachers  and factory workers. Secondly it's very sad to think that the PP will in all probablity be leading this country in the not too distant future because for some unfathomable reason voters still vote for this party:noidea:.
> Oh and here's sad point number 3. It seems that for all the people who think that the PP is corrupt, (and it does appear to be The Most Corrupt party even though none of them are as white as snow; more like slush that's being lying around for a couple of days on the side of the road) Mr Rajoy is getting away scot free up til now. Is it really possible that all this corruption was going on around him and he didn't know/ didn't participate?


I remember a few years ago some documents that implicated Rajoy but he seems to have rode the storm. The BBC covers it occasionally if anyone wants to read in English.

Spain opens 'biggest corruption trial' - BBC News


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

The Skipper said:


> Yes, and the corruption-riddled PSOE continues to rule in Andalucia! They are all as bad as each other in my opinion.


Yes, there is corruption in the PSOE as well but not on the same scale, either in the number of prosecutions or in monetary terms.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

baldilocks said:


> You could be right there. I did successfully nail a couple of corrupt individuals during my working life because I would always stand up for what I believed was right.


It can backfire. I knew a whistleblower who went to the head of Company, turned out he was in on it too


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## The Skipper (Nov 26, 2014)

Alcalaina said:


> Yes, there is corruption in the PSOE as well but not on the same scale, either in the number of prosecutions or in monetary terms.


So PSOE politicians aren't thieving quite as much as PP politicians (or haven't all been caught yet?) ... well, that's all right then!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

The Skipper said:


> So PSOE politicians aren't thieving quite as much as PP politicians (or haven't all been caught yet?) ... well, that's all right then!


No, that's not what Alcalaiana said and in fact no one has said, at least on this thread. 

Few people doubt the corruption in all parties, even to label it as endemic, but it really does seem to be more in the PP, probably because they have been the ruling party so were more numerous.

And that Rajoy is able to carry on is unbelievable. As I've said before what that man gets away with with his silence is incredible.


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## Justina (Jan 25, 2013)

*Rajoy*



Pesky Wesky said:


> No, that's not what Alcalaiana said and in fact no one has said, at least on this thread.
> 
> Few people doubt the corruption in all parties, even to label it as endemic, but it really does seem to be more in the PP, probably because they have been the ruling party so were more numerous.
> 
> And that Rajoy is able to carry on is unbelievable. As I've said before what that man gets away with with his silence is incredible.


Silence is golden.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

The Skipper said:


> The one good thing you can say about all this is that Spain does at least catch quite a few of the corrupt businessmen and politicians and puts them on trial ... and many end up behind bars! In the UK it is very rare that "top" people who are corrupt get brought to justice. Just look at the crooked UK bankers whose greed, dishonesty and incompetence brought the country to its knees in 2008. The worst "punishment" was the loss of a knighthood but they were all still left with huge pensions! I bet Rodrigo Rato must look with envy at his British counterparts!


I'm afraid Spain does not put many politicians behind bars, even when they are caught. Spanish people were amazed when Chris Huhne was jailed for speeding for instance. While the situation with the banks in the UK was sickening, it wasn't illegal, and many Spanish banks behaved in a similar way.


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## The Skipper (Nov 26, 2014)

Chopera said:


> I'm afraid Spain does not put many politicians behind bars, even when they are caught. Spanish people were amazed when Chris Huhne was jailed for speeding for instance. While the situation with the banks in the UK was sickening, it wasn't illegal, and many Spanish banks behaved in a similar way.


For the record Chris Huhne wasn't jailed for speeding. He was jailed for perverting the course of justice, a very serious offence. In the opinion of many people what several of the UK bankers did was illegal ... it just wasn't investigated! Falsely inflating the profitability of a company, which triggered huge bonus payments, and cashing in share options at trading prices inflated by false reporting, sounds like fraud to me!


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Spain is 36 in Transparency International corruption list 2015....down 2 places. Not bad though considering there are over 100 countries. UK is 10th. Denmark at no. 1 is the least corrupt.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Rabbitcat said:


> Your "problem" Baldi is being decent and having a conscience.
> 
> No chance of making it as a politician


Here we go again All politicians corrupt, greedy etc....
Well, I was a 'politician' for over thirty years, albeit in a regional capacity, but with access to public money and if anything my political activity cost me money. My partner was also very active in local politics and we often remarked that if we'd devoted as much time to our business as we did to the Labour Party we'd be multi-millionaires. I resent being told I have no conscience and anm not 'decent'. As a politician I helped homeless families get houses, amongst other socially useful things.
In all my years in politics I came across many stupid people but not one corrupt person.
If you want to make cheap jibes please be more selective. Aim your opprobrium where it's deserved, at those demonstrably guilty of corruption. They deserve it for dishonouring the very many decent men and women who give up their time for the public good.
Babies aren't born with ' Destined to be a politician' stamped on their arses, you know. It's a choice people make, whether to be a parish Councillor, a Town, District or County Councillor or an MP. They and the offices they fill are the bedrock of democracy.
Hitler and Stalin didn't care much for politicians either. Politician-haters could always go and live in North Korea....


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Here we go again All politicians corrupt, greedy etc....
> Well, I was a 'politician' for over thirty years, albeit in a regional capacity, but with access to public money and if anything my political activity cost me money. My partner was also very active in local politics and we often remarked that if we'd devoted as much time to our business as we did to the Labour Party we'd be multi-millionaires. I resent being told I have no conscience and anm not 'decent'. As a politician I helped homeless families get houses, amongst other socially useful things.
> In all my years in politics I came across many stupid people but not one corrupt person.
> If you want to make cheap jibes please be more selective. Aim your opprobrium where it's deserved, at those demonstrably guilty of corruption. They deserve it for dishonouring the very many decent men and women who give up their time for the public good.
> ...


This thread is talking about Spanish politics though. It has already been pointed out that Spain is 36 in the Transparency International corruption list 2015and the UK is in 10th place so if that is to be trusted it's not surprising more Spanish politicians are corrupt that British. However, I don't believe there are no underhand dealings in British politics, in fact I think there are plenty, and potentially more damaging as they may deal with drugs, arms and multinationals rather than a mayor getting his cousin onto the Town Hall staff.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

The Skipper said:


> So PSOE politicians aren't thieving quite as much as PP politicians (or haven't all been caught yet?) ... well, that's all right then!


She didn't say that. 
I'm an active PSOE member but it's undeniable that the reason PSOE hasn't been involved in so many corruption cases is that they haven't had so many opportunities.
Sadly, where they have had them, as in Andalucia, they are equally guilty of stealing public money and other forms of corruption.
The former PSOE Mayor of my town along with a couple of PSOE councillors has been accused of numerous offences from money laundering to embezzlement.

The truly sad thing is that in spite of all the clear evidence of corruption, the public still vote for the Parties concerned. After the last elections La Sexta did a review of areas where PP or PSOE politicians had been involved in corruption and found that their vote had not been adversely affected and in some cases had actually increased.
Just as some Americans will vote for Trump even if he leapt on a woman during a tv interview.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

I think British politicians are much more accountable than Spanish ones, and are more closely scrutinised. It's partly to do with the way they are selected in the first place, the way the lists are drawn up. In Spain, once they've been selected and elected, many feel are no longer accountable because they are there by right - including their right to lifetime pensions.

This right has only been challenged in recent years, by the Indignados movement and the emergent parties Cuidadanos and Podemos. Back in August, Cuidadanos gave PP leader Mariano Rajoy six conditions for backing his investiture:



> Rajoy must set a date for his investiture debate in Congress, expel party officials targeted in corruption investigations, end judicial privileges for elected officials, change the electoral law, end amnesties and pardons in corruption cases, limit the prime minister’s mandate, and create a parliamentary commission to look into the so-called Barcenas case involving illegal cash payments to PP officials.


Guess how many he agreed to? Just the first one ...


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## mono (Jan 22, 2016)

Unbelievable. So 'business' as usual then?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> I think British politicians are much more accountable than Spanish ones, and are more closely scrutinised. It's partly to do with the way they are selected in the first place, the way the lists are drawn up. In Spain, once they've been selected and elected, many feel are no longer accountable because they are there by right - including their right to lifetime pensions.
> 
> This right has only been challenged in recent years, by the Indignados movement and the emergent parties Cuidadanos and Podemos. Back in August, Cuidadanos gave PP leader Mariano Rajoy six conditions for backing his investiture:
> 
> ...


And in spite of all that he will most likely be back in power on November 1st.

I think the problem not only in Spain but across Europe is that social democracy has become stale and tired and people who want to be politically involved are drawn to extremes of left and right which are very noisy but have little chance of achieving real power, apart from running a few cities where they are mainly in coalitions.

An renewal of left of centre social democracy is badly needed but I see no signs of that happening in either the UK or Spain so we must put up with rule from the Right, seemingly for a very long time to come


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## Justina (Jan 25, 2013)

*Politicians*



Alcalaina said:


> I think British politicians are much more accountable than Spanish ones, and are more closely scrutinised. It's partly to do with the way they are selected in the first place, the way the lists are drawn up. In Spain, once they've been selected and elected, many feel are no longer accountable because they are there by right - including their right to lifetime pensions.
> 
> This right has only been challenged in recent years, by the Indignados movement and the emergent parties Cuidadanos and Podemos. Back in August, Cuidadanos gave PP leader Mariano Rajoy six conditions for backing his investiture:
> 
> ...


I feel that Spaniards are in general conservative and in some ways the iron hand of Franco still hangs over them. There are still plenty of older people alive and kicking who grew up in the Franco years and without wishing to return to those times, certain values have been passed on to the youth.
In the UK, I reckon it is just apathy. Up until recently the Brits had the choice of Milliband or Cameron.
And don't Brit MPs' receive a pension or is it just a one off golden handshake?


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## mono (Jan 22, 2016)

Both


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

I don´t have problems with UK MPs having decent pensions and higher salaries. After all it's a job that might last for a term or two if you are lucky, after which there´s a good chance of you ending up on the employment scrapheap. If you want to attract top people to the job, people who have been successful in various walks of life, you´ve got to make it financially worth their while. Otherwise you´ll just end up with career politicians from privileged backgrounds, treating it as a game.

In Spain it´s a different matter because the parties receive public funding. So you don´t get the lobbying (something that might seem corrupt in itself) but you do end up with public funds being used to pay Spanish politicians, regardless ogf whether they are in power, and seemingly for life.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Justina said:


> I feel that Spaniards are in general conservative and in some ways the iron hand of Franco still hangs over them. There are still plenty of older people alive and kicking who grew up in the Franco years and without wishing to return to those times, certain values have been passed on to the youth.
> In the UK, I reckon it is just apathy. Up until recently the Brits had the choice of Milliband or Cameron.
> And don't Brit MPs' receive a pension or is it just a one off golden handshake?


Yes, In the later years of the dictatorship people did see their living standards rise, and some look back on those years as the "good old days", but anyone who was on the wrong side in the war and suffered the repression and reprisals of the 1940s would sooner cut off their arm than vote PP.

It's also true that the system of kickbacks for contracts etc dates from the dictatorship, as does the all-powerful Alcaldes giving jobs to their relatives and supporters with no counter-balancing administration to hold them in check. Reform is badly needed, and I think this was one of C's demands which the PP rejected.

AFAIK the British MPs get a contributory pension of 1/40th of final salary for every year served, plus severance pay if the lose their seat. It's a totally different scale of magnitude as in Spain. Here, they can retire on full salary after just 7 years service, up to €74k p.a - twice the maximum for ordinary functionarios. What's more they can pick up a pension from every post they serve in, so as they work their way up the career ladder they can end up with ridiculously high incomes at the taxpayer's expense. 

The money is often used to buy property portfolios. There was one woman MP in the news recently who owned five luxury apartments in Madrid, yet was still claiming expenses for her accommodation!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Yes, In the later years of the dictatorship people did see their living standards rise, and some look back on those years as the "good old days", but anyone who was on the wrong side in the war and suffered the repression and reprisals of the 1940s would sooner cut off their arm than vote PP.
> 
> It's also true that the system of kickbacks for contracts etc dates from the dictatorship, as does the all-powerful Alcaldes giving jobs to their relatives and supporters with no counter-balancing administration to hold them in check. Reform is badly needed, and I think this was one of C's demands which the PP rejected.
> 
> ...


Corruption flourishes in the absence of developed civil society. So oppressive regimes whether of right or left will be characterised by lack of trust, corruption and self-serving MPs and public servants.
Corruption was rife in the Czech Republic albeit with lesser sums involved.
With all the ridiculous horse trading and manoeuvring that's gone on in Spanish politics since the first election it's really not surprising that some people yearn for a 'strong hand'.
Therein lies the danger of belittling all politicians. Dictators can do very well without them.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> *Corruption flourishes in the absence of developed civil society.* So oppressive regimes whether of right or left will be characterised by lack of trust, corruption and self-serving MPs and public servants.
> Corruption was rife in the Czech Republic albeit with lesser sums involved.
> With all the ridiculous horse trading and manoeuvring that's gone on in Spanish politics since the first election it's really not surprising that some people yearn for a 'strong hand'.
> Therein lies the danger of belittling all politicians. Dictators can do very well without them.


So you are saying that the UK lacks a developed civil society. What about all the MPs who were double claiming for living accommodation occasioned by their attendance at the House of Commons, falsely claiming for various services and all the other fiddles... ? As I have said many times before, very few people go into politics and other public life for altruistic reasons, and I still stand by that statement.

To save certain people having to look it up: "altruism: the principle or practice of unselfish concern for the welfare of others" this includes doing things for others with no thought of personal gain other than the normal reward acquired through employment such as wages or salary.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> So you are saying that the UK lacks a developed civil society. What about all the MPs who were double claiming for living accommodation occasioned by their attendance at the House of Commons, falsely claiming for various services and all the other fiddles... ? As I have said many times before, very few people go into politics and other public life for altruistic reasons, and I still stand by that statement.
> 
> To save certain people having to look it up: "altruism: the principle or practice of unselfish concern for the welfare of others" this includes doing things for others with no thought of personal gain other than the normal reward acquired through employment such as wages or salary.


No of course I'm not saying the UK lacks a civil society, although over the past few years it's been weakened. I SPECIFICALLY mentioned totalitarian societies where no independent organisations, clubs etc of any kind, even photographic or sports clubs , could be set up without the approval of the local or national state.
In the small town I lived in in the UK there was a plethora of organisations set up by public-spirited local citizens - the Women's Institute, Nature Society, Historical Society, Horticulturalist Society, Photographic Club, Bird Watchers Club, Music clubs, amateur orchestras......hundreds of them. Nothing like that existed in pre-1989 Czechoslovakia or Poland unless it was state sanctioned. I'm pretty sure that in Franco's Spain the state and church organised every waking moment of people's lives.
You also need to get a sense of proportion when comparing corruption in Spain and the UK. Of course there is corruption in the UK. People can be tempted anywhere. Fiddling expenses, helping yourself to office stationery, low level 'stealing' is ubiquitous and practised by many people who'd be horrified to be described as thieves.
But there is nothing in the UK to equal the corruption in Spain, either in scale, ubiquity or public acceptance of it.
When the Mayors and several Councillors of Eastbourne, Hastings, Brighton, Folkestone, Portsmouth, Frinton-on-Sea and many larger UK towns get arrested and charged with fraud, money laundering, nepotism etc etc then you can make valid comparisons - because that's the scale of municipal corruption in Spain let alone national corruption.
The recently-installed PSOE Mayor of Marbella was in the news last week, for organising a mounted police escort to accompany the wedding procession of a good friend...all at public expense, of course. The previous Mayor, PP, has been accused of gerrymandering civic boundaries to benefit properties owed by her husband's companies. The last but one Mayor of Estepona sat in Alhaurin prison for six months, was released and is still waiting trial along with 104 other Councillors and businesspeople charged with numerous money-related offences. The former Communist Mayor of Manilva has been accused of nepotism and other offences...the list goes on.

Corruption in the UK exists, it always will, but it is seen for what it is, a dishonourable betrayal of public trust. The vast majority of people who go into active politics at all levels do so for the very reason you suggest : ALTRUISM.
That's why I and my partner and all the other decent, honourable and yes, altruistic people I know went into political life.
I detest Corbyn's brand of politics but I would not for one moment entertain the thought that he is in any way deceitful or dishonest. I don't share his views but I respect the part he plays in the democratic process. I feel like that about most politicians.
And I do not insult hundreds of thousands of decent, honest and altruistic people who enter politics for the public good, not their own.
If you don't like the politicians you've got, what's stopping you or anyone stepping up to the plate in a democracy?
If politicians as a group are constantly subjected to suspicion and their motives abused, decent people will be deterred from standing for office lest they be tarred with the same brush.
Then you'll really leave the field to the crooks, won't you.....


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