# Pro Tenants so why?



## danteg1 (Sep 6, 2015)

I just don't get it. If Dubai is a pro tenants country, how did it manage to attract many foreign real estate investor to invest in their properties? And are majority of them even successful in the property market (Long run i mean)?

I mean a "Pro Tenants" mean that there is more disadvantages to the landlord & the law favor more on the tenants. In other words, "Drama" occurred & the landlord will have some serious headache. 

I understand if the investor want to "Fix & Flip" or "Wholesale" the property but for the long term investor, it didn't make too much sense to me. 

Any "Really Good" reason why foreign investors are coming to Dubai property?


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## Stevesolar (Dec 21, 2012)

danteg1 said:


> I just don't get it. If Dubai is a pro tenants country, how did it manage to attract many foreign real estate investor to invest in their properties? And are majority of them even successful in the property market (Long run i mean)?
> 
> I mean a "Pro Tenants" mean that there is more disadvantages to the landlord & the law favor more on the tenants. In other words, "Drama" occurred & the landlord will have some serious headache.
> 
> ...


Hi,
Welcome to the forum.
The answer is as plain as the nose on your face - but I am not prepared to state it on an open forum!
Hint - think suitcases and money!
Cheers
Steve


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## danteg1 (Sep 6, 2015)

Wow that is quite an "Convincing" answer. I must thank you Steve (Sarcasm here if you don't know)


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## ReefPony (Jun 22, 2015)

danteg1 said:


> Wow that is quite an "Convincing" answer. I must thank you Steve (Sarcasm here if you don't know)


Think about it... it's really not that hard.

Suitcases and money.

If you're buying a property to rent out, do you want to buy it in a place where most people buy their own home or in a place where most people rent... in many cases for 2-3 years or longer?

That the market is "pro tenant" is actually a function of the fact that it is a rental driven market... not a homeowner driven market.


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## danteg1 (Sep 6, 2015)

Naturally when real estate investor choose a country/area, it is best if the majority are renters but the factor on "Tenant-Landlord Law" is one of the most important factor consider that if the strategy is based on long term, then it make sense to have as little "Drama" as possible or it just isn't worth it. 

Consider that 1/2 of average renters' income in UAE paid in rent, the likelihood of again "Drama" occurred is very high & the exit strategy that we need to consider will decrease if the drama cause major future problem. Also, "Pro Tenants" does not function as a fact that the market is rental driven, it just mean that UAE favor Tenants more than the landlord.


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## ReefPony (Jun 22, 2015)

danteg1 said:


> Naturally when real estate investor choose a country/area, it is best if the majority are renters but the factor on "Tenant-Landlord Law" is one of the most important factor consider that if the strategy is based on long term, then it make sense to have as little "Drama" as possible or it just isn't worth it.
> 
> Consider that 1/2 of average renters' income in UAE paid in rent, the likelihood of again "Drama" occurred is very high & the exit strategy that we need to consider will decrease if the drama cause major future problem. Also, "Pro Tenants" does not function as a fact that the market is rental driven, it just mean that UAE favor Tenants more than the landlord.


I would argue rather strongly that if you aren't prepared or able to handle tenant "drama" then you probably shouldn't be a real estate investor. I don't care if you're into commercial or residential real estate... there's going to be tenant "drama".

I would also argue that the best rental markets also tend to have some of the most "pro tenant" laws and regulations. Again, if you want to just walk all over your tenants, you're probably not equipped to be a landlord.


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## twowheelsgood (Feb 21, 2013)

All you have to do is to read about Landlords online to realise why Dubai is 'pro-tenant' - and why if the bad landlords are kept in check, landlords can still make a good return.

If the rules were the other way around, Dubai would have difficulty attracting talented people to work here and investors would lose out. Look at Qatar for a good example of how not to do things.

And Pro-tenant does NOT mean anti-landlord. It means anti- lying, cheating, dishonest, criminal, negligent landlords who show themselves to be such whenever given the opportunity. 
Good landlords make a fair return here - bad landlords have to be reminded of the law every day in every way.


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## danteg1 (Sep 6, 2015)

Man there only one acceptable reply i got so far & that one is from twowheelsgood. It may not be a good answer but i can still understand it. And the reason i cannot take it as a whole or even close is because other countries with "Pro-Landlord" have some good ROI in rental as well. 

Oh i shall check & compare the situation with Qatar and other countries later.


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## danteg1 (Sep 6, 2015)

ReefPony said:


> I would argue rather strongly that if you aren't prepared or able to handle tenant "drama" then you probably shouldn't be a real estate investor. I don't care if you're into commercial or residential real estate... there's going to be tenant "drama".
> 
> I would also argue that the best rental markets also tend to have some of the most "pro tenant" laws and regulations. Again, if you want to just walk all over your tenants, you're probably not equipped to be a landlord.


Ha! Reef. You clearly do not understand what great benefits to investor in a "Pro-Landlord" country/state. And did you not read "as little Drama as possible". It is clear as day to me that from what you are viewing in Dubai at the moment, you had heard/or experience bad landlord relationship and making a ridiculous assumption that "best rental markets" came from "some of the most Pro-Tenants". Real Estate is much more complex & not at the same time and you are not well equipped to survive in this market.


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## Stevesolar (Dec 21, 2012)

danteg1 said:


> Man there only one acceptable reply i got so far & that one is from twowheelsgood. It may not be a good answer but i can still understand it. And the reason i cannot take it as a whole or even close is because other countries with "Pro-Landlord" have some good ROI in rental as well.
> 
> Oh i shall check & compare the situation with Qatar and other countries later.


Hi,
Good luck with Qatar!
Why not try Saudi Arabia or Kuwait while you are at it?
Cheers
Steve


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## The Rascal (Aug 6, 2014)

Stevesolar said:


> Hi,
> Good luck with Qatar!
> Why not try Saudi Arabia or Kuwait while you are at it?
> Cheers
> Steve


LOL, some people Steve?


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## danteg1 (Sep 6, 2015)

Stevesolar said:


> Hi,
> Good luck with Qatar!
> Why not try Saudi Arabia or Kuwait while you are at it?
> Cheers
> Steve


Regarding Qatar, i just saying i will check out their Tenant-Landlord Law but it turn out that Qatar too is a "Pro-Tenant"country so not a good compare with Dubai as both are "Pro-Tenant" countries. 

Simple, why i did not look to invest in those countries you just mentioned, not attractive tax benefits. And now that i look into they are not "Pro-Landlord" too, it just gotten more unattractive to me.


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## The Rascal (Aug 6, 2014)

danteg1,

Have checked whether you can actually buy in the places Steve mentioned?

#justsaying


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## TallyHo (Aug 21, 2011)

When you invest in the stock market, you are dealing with bits of paper.

When you invest in housing, you are dealing with people.

Housing is recognised as a critical human need. That is why there is a common understanding that housing is regulated to a degree, especially in areas with high cost of living and severe shortage of affordable housing, and in the case of Dubai, prone to speculation and wild swings in prices. 

The laws are not so much pro-tenant as a recognition that it's important to the well being of the greater society that there's some stability in housing markets. 

If you don't want to deal with this, then don't invest in housing.


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## Nursemanit (Jul 10, 2015)

How can a place where the landlord gets 100% of his money on day 1 be called " pro tenant"? Try being a landlord in the US where you have to get monthly rent checks, severe limits on security checks , and the laws change in each town. 

Landlords have virtually no risk and all reward in the UAE. What law makes you think you are at a disadvantage?


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## ReefPony (Jun 22, 2015)

Nursemanit said:


> How can a place where the landlord gets 100% of his money on day 1 be called " pro tenant"? Try being a landlord in the US where you have to get monthly rent checks, severe limits on security checks , and the laws change in each town.
> 
> Landlords have virtually no risk and all reward in the UAE. What law makes you think you are at a disadvantage?


Clearly the disadvantage comes from not being able to evict a tenant in 6 months (with no refund of the prepaid rent, obviously) in order to bring in a new tenant at a higher market rent.


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## Nursemanit (Jul 10, 2015)

He should get a US property and try and evict a tenant .... it can take 6 months even if they stopped paying you. 

Oh and try and pull the " only executive / european " crap in the US . You have no control about who rents your apartment in the US.


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## twowheelsgood (Feb 21, 2013)

danteg1 said:


> Regarding Qatar, i just saying i will check out their Tenant-Landlord Law but it turn out that Qatar too is a "Pro-Tenant"country .


You really have no idea how Qatar works do you ?

When you say you want 'pro-landlord' law, you mean the right to ride roughshod over anyone who happens to be unfortunate to want to live in your property, to throw them out when you can make more money from someone else, at ay time, and for your to scr*w them over every year with annual increases, for you to do little or no maintenance and for them to pay you to do what you're obliged to do but cannot be bothered ?

Thats 'pro-landlord' from the view of most people in the Middle East.


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## Simey (Dec 4, 2012)

Nursemanit said:


> He should get a US property and try and evict a tenant .... it can take 6 months even if they stopped paying you.
> 
> Oh and try and pull the " only executive / european " crap in the US . You have no control about who rents your apartment in the US.


Not so, at least not in most US jurisdictions. The kind of small time landlord prevalent in Dubai would actually be exempted from most US housing laws - including ones that forbid discrimination.

Being a jerk landlord is increasingly socially unacceptable however.


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## Nursemanit (Jul 10, 2015)

Simey said:


> Not so, at least not in most US jurisdictions. The kind of small time landlord prevalent in Dubai would actually be exempted from most US housing laws - including ones that forbid discrimination.
> 
> Being a jerk landlord is increasingly socially unacceptable however.


Quote a source on that - Federal law only has an exemption for small *owner occupied *units. This is to cover gender in duplex shares.

Federal: 
Title VIII, 42 U.S.C. §3604


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## Simey (Dec 4, 2012)

Nursemanit said:


> Quote a source on that - Federal law only has an exemption for small *owner occupied *units. This is to cover gender in duplex shares.
> 
> Federal:
> Title VIII, 42 U.S.C. §3604



It's broader than that - generally owners of fewer than 4 units - and a lot of states such as Virginia (where I rent) follow the federal model. 

Although I admit that I haven't studied the Fair Housing Act since law school, which was a while ago.


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## ReefPony (Jun 22, 2015)

Nursemanit said:


> Quote a source on that - Federal law only has an exemption for small *owner occupied *units. This is to cover gender in duplex shares.
> 
> Federal:
> Title VIII, 42 U.S.C. §3604


There is one exemption that goes a bit further than that. A landlord that owns fewer than 3 rental properties is exempted from those provisions as long as he/she doesn't use a broker to find a tenant.

The other side of that, though, is that any time you use a broker in the US to sell or rent a property you are entirely subject to the fair housing act because there isn't a state that doesn't require all licensed real estate brokers to abide by the fair housing act even if their client doesn't want to.


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## Visp (Mar 23, 2013)

Simey said:


> Not so, at least not in most US jurisdictions. The kind of small time landlord prevalent in Dubai would actually be exempted from most US housing laws - including ones that forbid discrimination.
> 
> Being a jerk landlord is increasingly socially unacceptable however.


Not really. Most all states have their own regulations that protect tenants, even if the Federal laws don't apply.


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## QOFE (Apr 28, 2013)

danteg1 said:


> Regarding Qatar, i just saying i will check out their Tenant-Landlord Law but it turn out that Qatar too is a "Pro-Tenant"country so not a good compare with Dubai as both are "Pro-Tenant" countries.
> 
> Simple, why i did not look to invest in those countries you just mentioned, not attractive tax benefits. And now that i look into they are not "Pro-Landlord" too, it just gotten more unattractive to me.


Luckily for UAE tenants you might not be investing in the property market here.
Play on the stock markets around the world. You clearly have not grasped all aspects of investing in property and being a decent landlord.


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## Simey (Dec 4, 2012)

Visp said:


> Not really. Most all states have their own regulations that protect tenants, even if the Federal laws don't apply.


Well, kind of. The federal statute was originally passed along with other civil rights laws because state law generally provided no protections to minorities facing private discrimination. But the federal law contained the political compromise exempting mom and pop landlords. 

I'm sure it's possible some states have subsequently gone further than federal law. Certainly perceptions have. However, a lot of states such as Virginia (with which I am most familiar), basically track federal law, including its exemptions. 

But I am not a real estate lawyer, I do commercial law. And as a landlord I have zero interest in the demographics of my tenants. I'm in it for the money!


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## Racing_Goats (Sep 5, 2015)

danteg1 said:


> Man there only one acceptable reply i got so far & that one is from twowheelsgood. It may not be a good answer but i can still understand it. And the reason i cannot take it as a whole or even close is because other countries with "Pro-Landlord" have some good ROI in rental as well.
> 
> Oh i shall check & compare the situation with Qatar and other countries later.


Why ask if you believe you already know the answers?


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## twowheelsgood (Feb 21, 2013)

You missed the comment about Qatar.

The law doesnt apply to Qatar nationals when in disputes with foreigners.

They will do what they want and you'll have no recourse as the courts will always favour them over you no matter what. And if you did win, you'd find you were unable to leave the country as a national can file a grievance about you and make you wait years to get out.

It happened to a very highly paid footballer recently, so as a property owner you've no chance..


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