# Graffiti and graffiti art.



## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

Here where we live it is both and in many places. When in Mexico City I saw more graffiti art and not much scribbling.

What does your area look like and where is it most often seen besides on roll up security doors etc.?


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

We have it all , a little very little grafiti art..printed slogans ie soy madre no sirviente, machete al machote and god knows what else..scribbles, tagging and it is all over the walls of just about every house, it is disgusting. 
Talking about a lot of the streets in San Cristobal de Las Casas Historical Center.


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## joaquinx (Jul 3, 2010)

I echo Citlali. As soon as a wall is repainted, new scribbles appear. No one is an artist and no one is literate. I would be nice if they said something, but no.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

joaquinx said:


> I echo Citlali. As soon as a wall is repainted, new scribbles appear. No one is an artist and no one is literate. I would be nice if they said something, but no.


In my travels there seems to be a much varied intensity. In some colonias here it is art with scribbles usually on corners and abandond buildings or their walls and houses. 

In other cities close by not much around, but I stay near the city centers and highways in and out.


Here none in the city center as they keep it looking nice except the odd abandoned house or building on some small side streets.


In some towns only the rollup security doors have it on late Sat. afternoons and Sundays when the places are closed.

The samll towns seem to have less around here.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

AlanMexicali said:


> Here where we live it is both and in many places. When in Mexico City I saw more graffiti art and not much scribbling.
> 
> What does your area look like and where is it most often seen besides on roll up security doors etc.?


There is no such thing as graffiti "art", it is vandalism plain and simple. If the owner of the space has given permission, then it is public art. If not, it is vandalism and despicable.

My house has been vandalized by graffiti twice. Both times I repainted it immediately. I have also painted over graffiti on neighboring houses: one that is vacant and one that is rented where neither the tenant nor landlord seems to have an incentive to repair the damage.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

TundraGreen said:


> There is no such thing as graffiti "art", it is vandalism plain and simple. If the owner of the space has given permission, then it is public art. If not, it is vandalism and despicable.
> 
> My house has been vandalized by graffiti twice. Both times I repainted it immediately. I have also painted over graffiti on neighboring houses: one that is vacant and one that is rented where neither the tenant nor landlord seems to have an incentive to repair the damage.


Good for you, TG! Painting over graffiti right away seems to discourage the makers of what I too call vandalism.


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## JoanneR2 (Apr 18, 2012)

TundraGreen said:


> There is no such thing as graffiti "art", it is vandalism plain and simple. If the owner of the space has given permission, then it is public art. If not, it is vandalism and despicable. My house has been vandalized by graffiti twice. Both times I repainted it immediately. I have also painted over graffiti on neighboring houses: one that is vacant and one that is rented where neither the tenant nor landlord seems to have an incentive to repair the damage.


Tell that to the people who are buying Banksy works of art...


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

JoanneR2 said:


> Tell that to the people who are buying Banksy works of art...


Banksy? Is he or she some sort of "artist"?


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## Chelloveck (Sep 21, 2013)

Street art obviously has a long tradition here in Mexico City, going back to Diego Rivera. A few years back, the police anti-graffiti unit here became the graffiti unit, and instead of chasing down taggers, they are now helping the more accomplished graffiti artists find free public spaces to create their work. You will sometimes see a police graffiti unit car guarding a street artist while he completes his work.

Mexico City is also home to some of the world's most well-known contemporary street artists, such as Saner and Smithe.

There's a lot of great street art here in Mexico City that is sanctioned by the property owner and the government. Of course, there are also a lot of random tags and scribbles that are nothing more than petty vandalism.

I expect to see all manner of graffiti in any major urban area. It's just part of the urban landscape. But often that comes at the expense of someone else's property. If I owned a nondescript warehouse with blank cinder-block walls, I'd probably welcome graffiti artists to ply their trade there whether I'd given them advance permission or not. If they tagged my house, though, I would not be so welcoming.


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## lagoloo (Apr 12, 2011)

IMO, painting on someone's property without their permission is vandalism, especially if it is on their personal house. It costs the property owner money they may or may not be able to afford to get rid of it. Vandalism, period.

Whether it is "art" or not is in the eye of the beholder. Some of it is beautifully done (Banksy, for example) and some is just "tagging" by gang bangers, and everything in between.


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

I have a solution for this, whenever is possible, install or paint a Virgen de Guadalupe on the wall. That takes care of the problem 99% of the times
But be careful, if you ever want to take the Virgin's image away...You will be in serious trouble


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

GARYJ65 said:


> I have a solution for this, whenever is possible, install or paint a Virgen de Guadalupe on the wall. That takes care of the problem 99% of the times
> But be careful, if you ever want to take the Virgin's image away...You will be in serious trouble


An interesting idea, Gary. Do you think the graffiti vandals, oops I mean "artists", will respect an image of the Virgin painted on building walls and go elsewhere to do their thing?


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## lagoloo (Apr 12, 2011)

Maybe. A couple of neighbor women in San Miguel de Allende who were anything but practicing Catholics had an actual ceramic mural of the Virgen installed on their front wall and another on the back wall since it was accessible from two streets.
The very religious neighbors in that barrio caught on when the alcohol fueled, loud parties started happening on a regular basis every weekend. So much for the protection of the Virgen. They got an extra dose of graffiti with statements of no uncertain insulting meaning. 

Hypocrisy will not get you far in Mexico. 

We, on the other hand, weren't church goers, but my tall spouse helped the short ladies heave their garbage up to the truck on trash day and we didn't throw loud parties.

No Virgen on our walls........and very little mild graffiti. No pointed insults about our lifestyle, just the usual symbolic gang tagging, easily removed or painted over.

Karma lives.


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

Isla Verde said:


> An interesting idea, Gary. Do you think the graffiti vandals, oops I mean "artists", will respect an image of the Virgin painted on building walls and go elsewhere to do their thing?


I know that 
I have done it


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Yes it worked for neighbors as well.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

JoanneR2 said:


> Tell that to the people who are buying Banksy works of art...


I know. There was even a lecture on so-called "street art" and the Guadalajara Book Fair a couple of years ago. And there is a podcast on the subject in the series of podcasts put out by the Mexican Cultural Institute for the bicentennial in 2010.

It is still vandalism.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

TundraGreen said:


> I know. There was even a lecture on so-called "street art" and the Guadalajara Book Fair a couple of years ago. And there is a podcast on the subject in the series of podcasts put out by the Mexican Cultural Institute for the bicentennial in 2010.
> 
> It is still vandalism.


But, TG, don't you know that if experts say something is art, then that's what it is!


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## lagoloo (Apr 12, 2011)

Isla Verde said:


> But, TG, don't you know that if experts say something is art, then that's what it is!


Right. And b.s. is b.s., no matter if you put lipstick on it and put it in a fine dress. 
Or, as an artist buddy used to say "I don't know what I like, but I know art".
He went on to become a respected professor of art history in a large university.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

lagoloo said:


> Right. And b.s. is b.s., no matter if you put lipstick on it and put it in a fine dress.
> Or, as an artist buddy used to say "I don't know what I like, but I know art".
> He went on to become a respected professor of art history in a large university.


Another way to know if something is art is if someone with more money than sense is willing to pay big bucks for it!


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## lagoloo (Apr 12, 2011)

Isla Verde said:


> Another way to know if something is art is if someone with more money than sense is willing to pay big bucks for it!


...in which case they are ...........rich and nuts.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

lagoloo said:


> ...in which case they are ...........rich and nuts.


Not necessarily. Many wealthy people collect art as an investment, not so much because they are great lovers of art.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

I find that some of you don´t appreciate what some graffiti artists are offering in the story told on the better ones I have seen. Someone said Diego Rivera was the first graffiti artist and much of his work has Mexican historical significance and very well thought of. So in conclusión don´t disregard something you know little about. My opinión only.

As far as the tagging of the walls with the image of the Virgin Guadalupe on them I think only foreigners would do that as far as I see it.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

AlanMexicali said:


> I find that some of you don´t appreciate what some graffiti artists are offering in the story told on the better ones I have seen. Someone said Diego Rivera was the first graffiti artist and much of his work has Mexican historical significance and very well thought of. So in conclusión don´t disregard something you know little about. My opinión only.


I know quite a bit about art, having studied art history and museography at the Master's level, focusing on all facets of Mexican art. I lived for many years in Philadelphia which has developed a fine tradition of community-based mural art, which has beautified the walls of many buildings in that city. Diego Rivera was a highly-trained artist who chose to use his talents to decorate walls in many historic and contemporary buildings in Mexico and elsewhere around the world. Both the wonderful murals in Philadelphia and the masterpieces created by Maestro Rivera are far cries from the graffiti that mars the walls of buildings and public spaces all over the world.


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## lagoloo (Apr 12, 2011)

Isla Verde said:


> Another way to know if something is art is if someone with more money than sense is willing to pay big bucks for it!


...in which case they are ...........rich and teched in the head. The whole world of high priced art is a little like the stock or real estate market: there may or may not be lasting value in what is bought. Only time will tell 

I, too, have my art chops and I agree with Isla Verde. I'm not claiming that holding degrees improves one's taste in art. Understanding of it........yes. I know that Diego Rivera had art training and deliberately chose to use that style. It has enriched the world in which he created, IMO. YMMV.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

Isla Verde said:


> I know quite a bit about art, having studied art history and museography at the Master's level, focusing on all facets of Mexican art. I lived for many years in Philadelphia which has developed a fine tradition of community-based mural art, which has beautified the walls of many buildings in that city. Diego Rivera was a highly-trained artist who chose to use his talents to decorate walls in many historic and contemporary buildings in Mexico and elsewhere around the world. This is a far cry from the graffiti that mars the walls of buildings and public spaces all over the world.


I did enjoy the old Palacio Nacional at the Zócalo when there and our guide went through a long explanation of the chapters of Mexican history represented there.

I see much better graffic art than you do I presume. There are some talented artists doing it and a famous large display of it done by local Mexican artists under the freeway on the walls in Chicano Park in San Diego and some walls in East Los Angeles that are spectacular.

Here I have seen a dozen or so very talented walls done with Rivera type stories, one on the long wall of the church yard 3 blocks from my in-laws. Beautiful.


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## lagoloo (Apr 12, 2011)

A little unwarranted assumption here? 

I don't think you can assume you've seen more "graffic" art than anyone else. I lived in L.A. for years, did my share of commuting and had the opportunity to see plenty of it. Some was amazingly good and some was just visual loud noise.

I only wish the people painting had had the opportunity to present their visions in a more "traditional" way: on canvas or other permanent media where it would not be subjected to the elements and could be viewed by an audience not whizzing by at the highest speed possible on a freeway while their eyes were also on the road. 

Unfortunately, many potentially excellent artists are stuck in poverty and never have the chance to go beyond that "wall", but their impulse to create overcomes that to the extent that you see beauty in their outdoor, clandestine efforts.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

lagoloo said:


> A little unwarranted assumption here?
> 
> I don't think you can assume you've seen more "graffic" art than anyone else. I lived in L.A. for years, did my share of commuting and had the opportunity to see plenty of it. Some was amazingly good and some was just visual loud noise.
> 
> ...


I think we need to distinguish between public art, painted in public spaces with the permission of the owners, and graffiti, painted without the approval of the owners.

I don't care how talented the graffiti painter is, it is still vandalism. How would you feel if I were talented at painting flames on the side of cars and chose to give your car a flame job. Is that art or vandalism?

I don't understand your connection between poverty and graffiti. I have no idea if graffiti painters have more or less money than anyone else, and I don't see that it matters.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

TundraGreen said:


> I think we need to distinguish between public art, painted in public spaces with the permission of the owners, and graffiti, painted without the approval of the owners.
> 
> I don't care how talented the graffiti painter is, it is still vandalism. How would you feel if I were talented at painting flames on the side of cars and chose to give your car a flame job. Is that art or vandalism?
> 
> I don't understand your connection between poverty and graffiti. I have no idea if graffiti painters have more or less money than anyone else, and I don't see that it matters.


I presume the "wall murals" I enjoy are owner sanctioned as they must take days or even weeks to complete. There seems to be a problem with semantics. I just Googled "Los Angeles graffiti art" then clicked images and there they are among other things.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

AlanMexicali said:


> I presume the "wall murals" I enjoy are owner sanctioned as they must take days or even weeks to complete. There seems to be a problem with semantics. I just Googled "graffiti art" then clicked images and there they are among other things.


Indeed it is a problem of semantics. "Graffiti" conjures up images of spray-painted scrawlings on walls in less than desirable neighborhoods while "art" is "a thing of beauty and a joy forever"!


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

https://www.google.com/search?q=gra...=chicano+park+san+diego+graffiti+art&tbm=isch

I put in "Chicano Park San Diego graffiti art" in Google images, interesting stuff. IMO


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Isla Verde said:


> Indeed it is a problem of semantics. "Graffiti" conjures up images of spray-painted scrawlings on walls in less than desirable neighborhoods while "art" is "a thing of beauty and a joy forever"!


Are you calling my neighborhood "less than desirable"?


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

TundraGreen said:


> Are you calling my neighborhood "less than desirable"?


Perhaps I should have written "often in less than desirable neighborhoods".


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## lagoloo (Apr 12, 2011)

Tundra Green:
"I don't understand your connection between poverty and graffiti. I have no idea if graffiti painters have more or less money than anyone else, and I don't see that it matters."

Does it matter? No, I don't want a "flame job" on my car, but what does that have to do with the question?

I DID NOT say I approved of unpermitted graffiti in public or private places, did I? No. I didn't, and I don't. Far from it.
My approval or lack of it isn't stopping these people from doing it, however.

But there is a connection between the reason for self expression in an L.A. tunnel in the one of the poorest sections of town, and poverty. I am saying that it is unfortunate that art education isn't as available to the poor as to others, and I'd wager most of the families who provided whatever education these graffiti perpetrators have are not in a position to send them on to art school and feed and house them while they struggle to become self supporting artists.

This does not justify breaking the law and defacing property, whether public or privately owned, and doing an artistic job of it doesn't change that. 

Have I made myself clear? I hope so.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

*t*



lagoloo said:


> Tundra Green:
> "I don't understand your connection between poverty and graffiti. I have no idea if graffiti painters have more or less money than anyone else, and I don't see that it matters."
> 
> Does it matter? No, I don't want a "flame job" on my car, but what does that have to do with the question?
> ...


It seems that we agree in essence.

As a victim of graffiti vandalism, I feel pretty strongly about this. Maybe what bothers me is the whole discussion of art in connection with graffiti. Most graffiti is by no stretch of the imagination, art. It is just tagging or random scrawls. It is rampant in the middle class neighborhood that I live in. My daughter lives in Berlin and nearly every surface in that city seems to be covered with graffiti. I really dislike graffiti.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

http://placesandplatypie.com/archives/021513-Murals.html


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

lagoloo said:


> A little unwarranted assumption here?
> 
> I don't think you can assume you've seen more "graffic" art than anyone else. I lived in L.A. for years, did my share of commuting and had the opportunity to see plenty of it. Some was amazingly good and some was just visual loud noise.
> 
> ...



I was talking to Isla, not others, in my assumption as she doesn´t see "wall murals" as art or anything close. 

As far as expressing their art in public or private venues I have to accept that Mexican "wall murals" are and have been a part of Southern California´s cultural history and don´t judge them as anything distracting from the scene if they are tastefully done as some are and accept it like I accept lowriders as a part of Southern California´s history and scene in some sectors. 

It is whatt it is and has been. Part of the landscape there.


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## lagoloo (Apr 12, 2011)

Here in Ajijic and now, in Chapala, there is a group who finally had it "up to here" with the widespread gang tagging in all neighborhoods, so they gathered some volunteers who were willing to go out and paint over it. I'm not talking about elaborate murals by people who permitted them on their walls. I'm talking the gang tags. Real estate agencies and individuals donated paint. Amazingly, it worked. The "graffitors", finally realizing their tags would disappear almost immediately, have more or less given up and the whole town looks better. It looked even worse in Chapala, and the Graffiti Busters are doing a great job there.
Those who are plagued with the stuff could consider this approach. Meanwhile, some good looking wall murals have appeared around town, with the wall owners' permission.
There's an especially fine one on Rio Zula, done by one of our well known local artists, and a few Virgen of Guadalupes being respected and untouched, here and there.


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## joaquinx (Jul 3, 2010)

I'll have to pull out my copy of John Ruskin's _The Stones of Venice_ before I comment on graffiti.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

For those who want to know more about Mexican Muralism, here's a course at Tulane: Los Tres Grandes - The Mexican Muralist Movement // Roger Thayer Stone Center For Latin American Studies at Tulane University


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

and for those of you who want to know how graffiti destroys a town come to San Cristobal de Las Casas and then go to Campeche where the houses are freshly painted and no graffiti is tolerate and see the difference... Both cities have wonderful centers, one is really pretty and the other is plagued by graffiti and have your pick..I know which one I vote for without any problems.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

citlali said:


> and for those of you who want to know how graffiti destroys a town come to San Cristobal de Las Casas and then go to Campeche where the houses are freshly painted and no graffiti is tolerate and see the difference... Both cities have wonderful centers, one is really pretty and the other is plagued by graffiti and have your pick..I know which one I vote for without any problems.


I've spent time in San Cristóbal and have seen how the scourge of graffiti has taken away from the beauty of its colonial architecture and atmosphere. It all comes down to the attitude of the inhabitants and the priorities of the local government as to whether graffiti is tolerated or not.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Yes it is a question of priority . I asked while I was in Campeche what they were doing to stop the graffiti: I was told that first of all INAH paid to have the center all painted, two the police and citizens work together to catch the vandals and they get a large fine or go to jail and graffiti are painted over immediately ..I was told by INAH, it is har to believe but that is what I was told.

In San Cristobal INAH paid to have one street repainted. One of the person in charge insisted that cal and paint be used as it is what was originally used. Great idea....the paint lasted about a year and now everything looks like hell again . They did not make that mistake in Campeche.
Also we have a bunch of " thinkers"..who have decided that the streets and houses are part of the "people´s" property and that graffiti is"the art of the people" and therefore cannot be removed or tampered with...It is very difficult to catch these guys who come in the middle of the night when the people and the police are aselep. The result is a beautiful city looking like hell.
We have it all but nothing artistic to speak about, just tagging and political slogans, even ETA has slogans in Basque down here...


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