# Safety of Sandton and surrounds - advice please



## edwardnkathy

Dear members,

I realise that crime and safety questions arrise all the time and I have read many threads regarding the issues, but as a married man with three young children I need to be positive before I move to Joburg.

Therefore, if anyone has some advice they could give on the following, I would be really grateful.

How safe are the affluent areas of Sandton? Do criminals venture into family burbs looking for opportunities?

Would my wife be safe driving to the local mall during the day?

Is the lifestyle pattern going to be - go to work (bryanston) straight back to my gated, electric fenced house?

What is the comeraderie like in gated or secure housing community?

Are there any members who are from the UK and have made a similar transition? My wife obviously has many questions and would love to be able to chat further.

Thank you for your help and please no sarcastic ('you could get mugged in your own country') comments this is very imortant to us so constructive advice would be really kind.

Ed


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## Stevan

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worth a look to compare with where you are now.


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## csh

Edward- we are in the same boat as you- moving to South Africa- Sandton area. I am very concerned that me and my family will not be safe and after looking at the info. Steven sent- i.e. statistics- I am horrified to think I may be exposing my children to this kind of violence. I will be actively trying to talk my husband out of moving here- it just isn't worth the risk of something happening to us. If anyone out there can prove otherwise please post.


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## Stevan

csh said:


> Edward- we are in the same boat as you- moving to South Africa- Sandton area. I am very concerned that me and my family will not be safe and after looking at the info. Steven sent- i.e. statistics- I am horrified to think I may be exposing my children to this kind of violence. I will be actively trying to talk my husband out of moving here- it just isn't worth the risk of something happening to us. If anyone out there can prove otherwise please post.


Nobody can prove otherwise, as nobody can prove you will be safe anywhere in the world.


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## Thatch22

edwardnkathy said:


> Dear members,
> 
> I realise that crime and safety questions arrise all the time and I have read many threads regarding the issues, but as a married man with three young children I need to be positive before I move to Joburg.
> 
> Therefore, if anyone has some advice they could give on the following, I would be really grateful.
> 
> How safe are the affluent areas of Sandton? Do criminals venture into family burbs looking for opportunities?
> 
> Would my wife be safe driving to the local mall during the day?
> 
> Is the lifestyle pattern going to be - go to work (bryanston) straight back to my gated, electric fenced house?
> 
> What is the comeraderie like in gated or secure housing community?
> 
> Are there any members who are from the UK and have made a similar transition? My wife obviously has many questions and would love to be able to chat further.
> 
> Thank you for your help and please no sarcastic ('you could get mugged in your own country') comments this is very imortant to us so constructive advice would be really kind.
> 
> Ed


Why live in Santon? There there is more crime happening, because there is really something to get. Big houses and the more rich live there, so thy have more nicer things in the house, so the houses are really like a fort!

And then to go to Bryanton....traffic jam twice a day! Go and live in Bryanston then, is my advice! Traffic in and around Jo'burg in the morning and evening is terrible, so live as close as you can near your job!
Or Dainfern, there are living a lot expats over there!

Would my wife be safe driving to the local mall during the day? Of course!!

Is the lifestyle pattern going to be - go to work (bryanston) straight back to my gated, electric fenced house?
No, visiting malla, restaurante, theathers, having breakfast or lunch at a nice spot and so more. Visit the country it self, go to Gold reef city in Jo'burg with the kids.

What is the comeraderie like in gated or secure housing community? I really do not know. Becauce we do not live like that! We have bought our own plot with house, great the space we have here!

We like living here, so much, the weather, the people, the country. No we donot want to live in de Eu no more!

Yes you have to learn some safety things, but that is no reason not to live here.:confused2:

Good luck with everything.

greeting from sunny Kyalami


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## edwardnkathy

Thank you to all for your replies, very useful.


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## edwardnkathy

*Thank you*



csh said:


> Edward- we are in the same boat as you- moving to South Africa- Sandton area. I am very concerned that me and my family will not be safe and after looking at the info. Steven sent- i.e. statistics- I am horrified to think I may be exposing my children to this kind of violence. I will be actively trying to talk my husband out of moving here- it just isn't worth the risk of something happening to us. If anyone out there can prove otherwise please post.


I think the problem is that I don't have enough first hand feedback - if I do get some, I will share. I really want to move there for the job and for a certain standard of life but I always have this niggling worry of taking the family. Please let me know if you get any other information.

Ed


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## Stevan

Edward

Have you ever been to south africa or the area you intend to stay?


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## Beachi

*My view*



edwardnkathy said:


> I think the problem is that I don't have enough first hand feedback - if I do get some, I will share. I really want to move there for the job and for a certain standard of life but I always have this niggling worry of taking the family. Please let me know if you get any other information.
> 
> Ed


Edward and Kathy
A previous post about being close to your work in Bryanston is valid. Although, depending on your exact location, the traffic from Sandton to Bryanston is certainly not as bad as from Bryanston to Sandton. Bryanston is about as safe as Sandton and there are some great places to live in Bryanston, but I'm uncertain about how many gated communities there are in Bryanston. There is one that I know though which is superb: Riverclub. It's a golf club culture and quite posh.

The advantages of living in a gated community are that if you've got kids, they will be able to ride their bikes in the street without fear of an accident on a busy road, and without fear of having their bikes stolen away from them. You and your wife will also feel more secure - so perhaps this is best for you. Also, when you return from a restaurant late at night, you will be want to be returning home to a guarded entrance, if you're apprehensive. - The good security offered at many of these 'gated communities' may seem strange at first, but you'll become accustomed to it. At times it can even become an irritation as your dinner guests will be subjected to scrupulous security checks. They are worthwhile though and the advantage is that you feel safe in your home.

As I'm sure you already know, South Africans are incredibly friendly people, but also respectful of your privacy. You may well be invited around by neighbours for a 'braai' and will feel immediate warmth and instantly be subjected to good ol' SA humour. 

Yes, your wife will be able to drive to the mall and in 2 or 3 months she will be asking 'what's all the fuss about?'. You should however always remain aware and never become blaze. Chatting on your mobile phone at the street lights (or robots as they're called in SA) is asking for trouble and you'd be inviting hijacking or 'smash and grab' for example. You'd be advertising your 'unawareness' to any would be criminals. Also, a large flashy watch and big diamonds are best covered up, when driving, shopping etc. - At least until you've become more 'tuned in', and then, still be careful. 

Driving in Johannesburg can be daunting and while a GPS system is great, I'd caution against relying on this totally. There are certain areas in Jozi (Johannesburg) that are more dangerous than others. Stick to what you know until you're properly aclimatized. 

Some advice about a car for your wife. A flat tyre on the road can be dreadful for us girls, but in a new country, where crime can be an issue, you may want to consider drive flat tyres, allowing you to continue to a safe place to stop, before changing the tyre.

Onto a more pleasant topic:

You will be able to drive for 2 or 3 hours and find yourself in a great big 5 private game reserve, experiencing the african bushveld in luxury.
In 6 hours you can get to the Kruger National Park
In 4 hours you can drive to the Drakensberg mountain range. Hike up the mountains, soak up the scenery and have the most unforgetable holiday with your wife and kid/s in great accommodation.
In 3-4 hours you can drive to Clarens and spend a quiet weekend at a B&B wondering around art galleries
In 5-6 hours you can be in Durban, swimming in the warm Indian Ocean.
And all this costs NOTHING when you're earning foreign currency. Even by SA standards it's value for money.

The restaurants, cafe culture and shopping are not bad. - I can help with some recommendations  if you like?

The birdsong in the mornings and the secretive birdlife that will visit your garden is just magical.
The lush greenery, beautiful gardens, the smiling face that will help you fill your car full of petrol, endless blue skies, the long warm summer days (remember he suntan lotiion!) and crisp Joburg winters. (Never much colder than 2 degrees in the early morning).
Joburg thunderstorms are stunning!!
In all likelihood you will enjoy a wonderful relationship with the housekeeper you're likely to find to help with the running of the home. You should try and find someone through a contact, so that you know what you're getting here. 
The schools are great and the medical care in SA is fabulous. (I fly back to SA to be treated there).

and... SA speak - some of it anyway...
robots = street lights
takkies = trainers
howzit = hello, how are you doing?
I'm coming just now = I'm coming when I'm ready and that could mean in 5 minutes or in a good few hours.
eeeish = holy manoly, whew, geeez

You should absolutely go and discover this beautiful, crazy land, and I wish you both the very best. I'll be there in November, and am happy to help with anything at all. Your wife is very welcome to call me too. Let me know if you'd like my contact details.


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## edwardnkathy

Stevan said:


> Edward
> 
> Have you ever been to south africa or the area you intend to stay?


Unfortunately until the job is confirmed everything is pot luck via web information so if my knowledge is a little wobbly my appologies.


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## edwardnkathy

*Thank you*



Beachi said:


> Edward and Kathy
> A previous post about being close to your work in Bryanston is valid. Although, depending on your exact location, the traffic from Sandton to Bryanston is certainly not as bad as from Bryanston to Sandton. Bryanston is about as safe as Sandton and there are some great places to live in Bryanston, but I'm uncertain about how many gated communities there are in Bryanston. There is one that I know though which is superb: Riverclub. It's a golf club culture and quite posh.
> 
> The advantages of living in a gated community are that if you've got kids, they will be able to ride their bikes in the street without fear of an accident on a busy road, and without fear of having their bikes stolen away from them. You and your wife will also feel more secure - so perhaps this is best for you. Also, when you return from a restaurant late at night, you will be want to be returning home to a guarded entrance, if you're apprehensive. - The good security offered at many of these 'gated communities' may seem strange at first, but you'll become accustomed to it. At times it can even become an irritation as your dinner guests will be subjected to scrupulous security checks. They are worthwhile though and the advantage is that you feel safe in your home.
> 
> As I'm sure you already know, South Africans are incredibly friendly people, but also respectful of your privacy. You may well be invited around by neighbours for a 'braai' and will feel immediate warmth and instantly be subjected to good ol' SA humour.
> 
> Yes, your wife will be able to drive to the mall and in 2 or 3 months she will be asking 'what's all the fuss about?'. You should however always remain aware and never become blaze. Chatting on your mobile phone at the street lights (or robots as they're called in SA) is asking for trouble and you'd be inviting hijacking or 'smash and grab' for example. You'd be advertising your 'unawareness' to any would be criminals. Also, a large flashy watch and big diamonds are best covered up, when driving, shopping etc. - At least until you've become more 'tuned in', and then, still be careful.
> 
> Driving in Johannesburg can be daunting and while a GPS system is great, I'd caution against relying on this totally. There are certain areas in Jozi (Johannesburg) that are more dangerous than others. Stick to what you know until you're properly aclimatized.
> 
> Some advice about a car for your wife. A flat tyre on the road can be dreadful for us girls, but in a new country, where crime can be an issue, you may want to consider drive flat tyres, allowing you to continue to a safe place to stop, before changing the tyre.
> 
> Onto a more pleasant topic:
> 
> You will be able to drive for 2 or 3 hours and find yourself in a great big 5 private game reserve, experiencing the african bushveld in luxury.
> In 6 hours you can get to the Kruger National Park
> In 4 hours you can drive to the Drakensberg mountain range. Hike up the mountains, soak up the scenery and have the most unforgetable holiday with your wife and kid/s in great accommodation.
> In 3-4 hours you can drive to Clarens and spend a quiet weekend at a B&B wondering around art galleries
> In 5-6 hours you can be in Durban, swimming in the warm Indian Ocean.
> And all this costs NOTHING when you're earning foreign currency. Even by SA standards it's value for money.
> 
> The restaurants, cafe culture and shopping are not bad. - I can help with some recommendations  if you like?
> 
> The birdsong in the mornings and the secretive birdlife that will visit your garden is just magical.
> The lush greenery, beautiful gardens, the smiling face that will help you fill your car full of petrol, endless blue skies, the long warm summer days (remember he suntan lotiion!) and crisp Joburg winters. (Never much colder than 2 degrees in the early morning).
> Joburg thunderstorms are stunning!!
> In all likelihood you will enjoy a wonderful relationship with the housekeeper you're likely to find to help with the running of the home. You should try and find someone through a contact, so that you know what you're getting here.
> The schools are great and the medical care in SA is fabulous. (I fly back to SA to be treated there).
> 
> and... SA speak - some of it anyway...
> robots = street lights
> takkies = trainers
> howzit = hello, how are you doing?
> I'm coming just now = I'm coming when I'm ready and that could mean in 5 minutes or in a good few hours.
> eeeish = holy manoly, whew, geeez
> 
> You should absolutely go and discover this beautiful, crazy land, and I wish you both the very best. I'll be there in November, and am happy to help with anything at all. Your wife is very welcome to call me too. Let me know if you'd like my contact details.



Thank you so much for such a thoughtful reply, my wife and I really appreciate the time you have taken to respond. I will find out more by the end of the week so if you dont mind my wife would love to contact you should things go smoothly.

Thank you again,

Kathy and Edward.


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## Beachi

*contact*



edwardnkathy said:


> Thank you so much for such a thoughtful reply, my wife and I really appreciate the time you have taken to respond. I will find out more by the end of the week so if you dont mind my wife would love to contact you should things go smoothly.
> 
> Thank you again,
> 
> Kathy and Edward.


It would be my pleasure to help your wife. (I've just tried to post my email address without success as I have to make 4 posts here before I'm an active member... Let's try this: blnd(underscore)gbsn(at)yahoo(dot)com. If this doesn't work, I'll make a few more posts. 

Hope to connect with Kathy soon.


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## Daxk

Edward and Kathy, I've stayed on the sidelines on this one (getting tired of being shouted down because I only deal in facts)
I have'nt checked which stats Stevan has given you so there might be a Duplication.
Sandton is a very broad area which is serviced by a number of SAPS Stations, each station has contributed to stats that clearly define what crimes have been reported in that area.

Everyone says that if you stay out of bad areas you will be ok, however, in the crime stats, there is a section for aggravated Robbery,
That is Sarf Africanese for having a number of heavily armed criminals in your home, with you.
This is the one that has driven more South Africans out of South Africa than anything else.
And they do happen in Gated and supposedly secure Estates.

The second scary one is Hi-jackings, at Robots,in your driveway, at shopping centres etc

The SA Police services have given some information which I posted earlier on a thread called Advice for Expats on this forum.
I did'nt make it up,

You need to look at the underlying hints.
why are Homes so well secured?
why is there an armed Security presence at Schools and creches when you drop children off and fetch them?
Why are the highways so much quieter after 9pm at night?

why are the Doctors who have the contracts to do emigration Medicals booked up 6 months in advance?
why are 58% of South Africans who have higher education and children seriously considering emigrating (Source Synovate Survey 2009 on behalf of ISS) as soon as the EC is over.

I am sure you have met South Africans wherever you are, if they have children , ask them why they left and why they wont go back.
Most will tell you they want to go back, but wont till the crime is sorted out.
its not getting sorted out ,not the ones that keep people awake at nights.


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## edwardnkathy

*Thank you for your candour*



Daxk said:


> Edward and Kathy, I've stayed on the sidelines on this one (getting tired of being shouted down because I only deal in facts)
> I have'nt checked which stats Stevan has given you so there might be a Duplication.
> Sandton is a very broad area which is serviced by a number of SAPS Stations, each station has contributed to stats that clearly define what crimes have been reported in that area.
> 
> Everyone says that if you stay out of bad areas you will be ok, however, in the crime stats, there is a section for aggravated Robbery,
> That is Sarf Africanese for having a number of heavily armed criminals in your home, with you.
> This is the one that has driven more South Africans out of South Africa than anything else.
> And they do happen in Gated and supposedly secure Estates.
> 
> The second scary one is Hi-jackings, at Robots,in your driveway, at shopping centres etc
> 
> The SA Police services have given some information which I posted earlier on a thread called Advice for Expats on this forum.
> I did'nt make it up,
> 
> You need to look at the underlying hints.
> why are Homes so well secured?
> why is there an armed Security presence at Schools and creches when you drop children off and fetch them?
> Why are the highways so much quieter after 9pm at night?
> 
> why are the Doctors who have the contracts to do emigration Medicals booked up 6 months in advance?
> why are 58% of South Africans who have higher education and children seriously considering emigrating (Source Synovate Survey 2009 on behalf of ISS) as soon as the EC is over.
> 
> I am sure you have met South Africans wherever you are, if they have children , ask them why they left and why they wont go back.
> Most will tell you they want to go back, but wont till the crime is sorted out.
> its not getting sorted out ,not the ones that keep people awake at nights.


Thank you for chipping in, I think your point of view is very valid. One human question that you may have a comment on - and I would really like your input - when looking at 'affluent safe' areas north of JB, I see rather wornderful housing, recreational places like Montecasino, school children looking extremely happy, I just watched a cricket match on TV in JB - the crowd happy and enjoying life etc...
What am I missing? Are these people hardcore hardenned South Africans or just lucky.

Many thanks,

Edward.


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## Daxk

Edward, its a lottery thats slightly skewed.
You could live there for 40 years and never experience anything more than the "petty" crime of a stolen car/burglary when you are out/ bag snatching etc.
Or you could cross someones sight lines without knowing it.
You need to look at the South Africans as a population group to understand their attitude.
They (we) spent 48 years practising/experiencing Apartheid,
Fought a border war, lost it, nearly had a civil war when some idiots assasinated Chris Hani,
Are probably still the most polarised colour conscious nation on Earth but are eternal optimists and live in hope.

If I can give you an example, in any other Western Country if you got car-jacked or had a tiger raid with 4 armed guys threatening rape murder and etc and survived it with no damage,
people would be agog.
In SA you were lucky, and the subject gets changed.
Its the same mentality that existed in Britain during the Second World War, its there, its a strong possibility, lets ignore it and enjoy the cricket shall we.
dont misunderstand me, its a beautiful Country, it has great people, it has scenery that is breathtaking, its weather is superb,

But it has an attitude towards danger thats a bit gung ho because it is (and always has been ) a dangerous place. 
So yes, its exciting, and vibrant and alive and you can live in a better house than your UK MD could probably dream of for half the price,
and if you were young without kids its a great place to be.

Crunch point for any parent in SA.
If you won the Euro Millions and could live anywhere, where would your kids be safest?
SA is far down the list.


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## edwardnkathy

*Thank you once more*



Daxk said:


> Edward, its a lottery thats slightly skewed.
> You could live there for 40 years and never experience anything more than the "petty" crime of a stolen car/burglary when you are out/ bag snatching etc.
> Or you could cross someones sight lines without knowing it.
> You need to look at the South Africans as a population group to understand their attitude.
> They (we) spent 48 years practising/experiencing Apartheid,
> Fought a border war, lost it, nearly had a civil war when some idiots assasinated Chris Hani,
> Are probably still the most polarised colour conscious nation on Earth but are eternal optimists and live in hope.
> 
> If I can give you an example, in any other Western Country if you got car-jacked or had a tiger raid with 4 armed guys threatening rape murder and etc and survived it with no damage,
> people would be agog.
> In SA you were lucky, and the subject gets changed.
> Its the same mentality that existed in Britain during the Second World War, its there, its a strong possibility, lets ignore it and enjoy the cricket shall we.
> dont misunderstand me, its a beautiful Country, it has great people, it has scenery that is breathtaking, its weather is superb,
> 
> But it has an attitude towards danger thats a bit gung ho because it is (and always has been ) a dangerous place.
> So yes, its exciting, and vibrant and alive and you can live in a better house than your UK MD could probably dream of for half the price,
> and if you were young without kids its a great place to be.
> 
> Crunch point for any parent in SA.
> If you won the Euro Millions and could live anywhere, where would your kids be safest?
> SA is far down the list.


Thank you again, very insightful - just a shame that the negatives are starting to outwiegh the the positive.

Edward


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## chinasing

*Re:And he's back!!*

Aw yes Mr.Daxx is back and with more of the usual negative banter. Once again people come to this forum to get unbiased information, so as to help them make life altering decisions. Yet time and time again you find a way to discourage individuals from coming to see first hand for themselves what a truely beautiful country this is and the numerous opportunities!!!
No country is a 100% safe and each one has it's own standard of living a safe and satisfying life and that is to be understood. Sandton is very safe and a lot of negative information is stemming from fear or ignorance and in some cases resentment. As long as one takes heed to the information that's given out by the local police on how to prevent crime, common sense as well as listening to your gut instinct will keep you safe and away from a load of trouble!
For the record I do not work for a headhunter nor do I have any invested interest in posting my own thoughts except for the fact if I had come to this forum before I moved and read what you and your cohorts posted, I would have second guessed myself and would not have made the move,and would have missed out on the sunshine,the smiling warm faces,the business oportunities and I am a lot happier for it.
Good luck to those opened minded enough to see past all the negativity and will venture out to make the move out here..


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## Daxk

Chinasing.
prove me wrong with facts.
Crime statistics on crimes reported in Sandton, at the Sandton, Douglasdale,Rosebank, Randburg and Midrand Police Stations.
All Areas the the OP will be looking at as potential areas to live in and commute.
I dont have to post negativity,the SA Press reports are negative enough.

exactly how long have you lived there ?


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## Stevan

> Aw yes Mr.Daxx is back and with more of the usual negative banter. Once again people come to this forum to get unbiased information, so as to help them make life altering decisions. Yet time and time again you find a way to discourage individuals from coming to see first hand for themselves what a truely beautiful country this is and the numerous opportunities!!!


Listen to both sides of the argument edward. Daxx will give you lots of information that is always backed up by facts and figuers. Then listen to the other side you have already recieved some posotives.

From my point of view. I love it in south africa. I have a far better standard of life.

Is it for everybody? no definatley not. The truth is probably somwhere between the two sides of the argument. But to make an informed choice you must listen to both sides.

My advice discount the all wine and roses replys, and the one line doom and gloom your going to die replies. there are a lot of informed people on here that will give you good advice and thier opinion. Remember it is only their opinion and only you can make the finale decision.

I wish you well with what ever you decide.


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## edwardnkathy

Thank you to all of you for taking the time to respond to my questions, this has helped me and my family.

Ed


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## arnaud

Ed,

Sandton is secure area, with western values. read at what Beachi wrote, I think this is one the the best unbiased and interesting post I have read here.

As for Daxk, in every froum involving South Africa you will get tons of answers from prophets of doom. I am still amazed on how some guy can write such racist statements (I don't say Daxk is racist, but some prophets of doom are those worshiping Verwoerd and tne gool old days. Some states Hitler was nicer than Mugabe, for instance)

Make your opinion. There are tons of opportunities in South Africa. But be aware that South Africa is not Australia or Europe (even if in Europe the situation goes worse, especially in UK and Netherlands).

Sandton should be ok, look at what Beachi wrote


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## edwardnkathy

arnaud said:


> Ed,
> 
> Sandton is secure area, with western values. read at what Beachi wrote, I think this is one the the best unbiased and interesting post I have read here.
> 
> As for Daxk, in every froum involving South Africa you will get tons of answers from prophets of doom. I am still amazed on how some guy can write such racist statements (I don't say Daxk is racist, but some prophets of doom are those worshiping Verwoerd and tne gool old days. Some states Hitler was nicer than Mugabe, for instance)
> 
> Make your opinion. There are tons of opportunities in South Africa. But be aware that South Africa is not Australia or Europe (even if in Europe the situation goes worse, especially in UK and Netherlands).
> 
> Sandton should be ok, look at what Beachi wrote


Many thanks for your input - much appreciated
Ed.


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## Irish Lout

Oh dear - I see Mr Facts & Figures / Mr Doom & Gloom eg Daxks is back. Back to strike the fear of God to anyone daring even to consider moving to South Africa - as he sits from his armchair in Ireland for the past 20 years without knowing for himself the reality of living here currently (yes, we can all twist the facts & figures any way we want - not so clever really).

Edward, Im not going to give you 10 "facts" - but pls bear in mind Daxks is a permanent troll on this forum and has scared away many a potential expat with his history lessons and tales from friends - very unfortuante. All I can tell you is I did the research myself and visited Johannesburg to see first hand what life is like down here before I made my decision. I have a wife and a 3 year old daughter and there is no way if i ever felt unsafe would I move my family down here - so you can say Im putting my money where my mouth is.

I love living here, my wife & daughter absolutely love it too. Weather if fantastic, people are friendly and quality of life is second to none - I agree with the earlier post made by beachi.

Yes, safety is a concern and you do need to be vigilant (but not paranoid) and use common sense. I chose to life in Dainfern which is a gated community and feel extremely safe. My wife drives around during the day and schooling for kids is better than anything you would get in the UK.

If you are seriously considering moving here, I strongly recommend you visit for a week or so to get a feel for the place - you also need to ensure your salary provides you the means to live in a safe area, this is key.

snip

Good luck.


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## jojo

Irish Lout said:


> Oh dear - I see Mr Facts & Figures / Mr Doom & Gloom eg Daxks is back. Back to strike the fear of God to anyone daring even to consider moving to South Africa - as he sits from his armchair in Ireland for the past 20 years without knowing for himself the reality of living here currently (yes, we can all twist the facts & figures any way we want - not so clever really).
> 
> Edward, Im not going to give you 10 "facts" - but pls bear in mind Daxks is a permanent troll on this forum and has scared away many a potential expat with his history lessons and tales from friends - very unfortuante. All I can tell you is I did the research myself and visited Johannesburg to see first hand what life is like down here before I made my decision. I have a wife and a 3 year old daughter and there is no way if i ever felt unsafe would I move my family down here - so you can say Im putting my money where my mouth is.
> 
> I love living here, my wife & daughter absolutely love it too. Weather if fantastic, people are friendly and quality of life is second to none - I agree with the earlier post made by beachi.
> 
> Yes, safety is a concern and you do need to be vigilant (but not paranoid) and use common sense. I chose to life in Dainfern which is a gated community and feel extremely safe. My wife drives around during the day and schooling for kids is better than anything you would get in the UK.
> 
> If you are seriously considering moving here, I strongly recommend you visit for a week or so to get a feel for the place - you also need to ensure your salary provides you the means to live in a safe area, this is key.
> 
> snip
> 
> Good luck.


Everyone has a right to their opinion on a forum, both Daxks and you Mr Lout! So avoid using insults, all of you, it can only cause disharmony. State your case quietly and pleasantly!

Thanx


Jo xx


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## Daxk

Irishlout, just a quickie if I may?
"Yes, safety is a concern and you do need to be vigilant (but not paranoid) and use common sense. I chose to life in Dainfern which is a gated community and feel extremely safe. My wife drives around during the day and schooling for kids is better than anything you would get in the UK."

You have to leave Dainfern at times .
Down the road from you is a petrol garage, you and your wife drive past it often.
a lady popped in there within the last 6 weeks to get some Petrol, there was an armed robbery at the time, they shot her because she screamed.
would you like a link to the News reports?
Yes, you pay for your security, but if your child goes to a School or creche outside of your little enclave which has'nt always been safe, and has no guarantee that it will continue, kindly advise why it is necessary for them to have armed security guards at drop off and fetch times?
Why they have the levels of security they have iro of Fencing and the like?

The only reason you are so chirpy,Irishlout is because sofar you have been lucky, and as said before, you could easily cotinue to do so, not everyone gets murdered or raped.
Just enough to raise warning bells.
The OP asked a reasonable answer.
are you guaranteeing that if he follows your advice he and his family will be safe?

BTW, I am South African, left in 2004, been back often since then, talk to people in SA every day.
That was quite a hailstorm today was'nt it?


----------



## Irish Lout

Daxk - FYI - while we dont live in a bubble we do use our common sense not to venture into parts of Joburg which are not recommended. Wouldnt you do the same in say London or NY?

Here we go - pulling out newspapers and links. The fact is (apologies if I repeat myself but you dont seem to be listening), myself and my family feel safe living here - none of my friends or colleagues at work have experienced any serious crime - does that mean it doesnt exist? No, but for most of us living here we have a pretty good life.

I see you bring my familiy into the discussions again - its the second time you try to get personal. My wife drops my daughter off to school every day & back - we dont need an armed guard and neither do all the mothers of her friends. We love our daughter and feel safe in our environment - and we dont need any "armed guards" - but then again we are living in the year 2009 but 1929 where youre probably sitting on your rocking chair dredging up more "facts".

Im chirpy because I enjoy life, I make the most of what South Africa has to offer. Its not a perfect country but has a hell of a lot going for it. Theres no guarantees in life - you make your own luck and make your own choices.

My advice to prospective expats - dont take my word or Daxks word for it - come and see for yourself - its the only way.

BTW - so you can read a weather forecast or talk to a few war buddies - so what? This makes you an informed source and all your facts & figures magically correct? Time to take down the umbrella, smell the fresh air and open your eyes - its a new world out here, and not the one you left in 1929.


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## Daxk

*I see you bring my familiy into the discussions again - its the second time you try to get personal. My wife drops my daughter off to school every day & back - we dont need an armed guard and neither do all the mothers of her friends.*

I did'nt bring your family in, you did.

"My wife drives around during the day and schooling for kids is better than anything you would get in the UK."

and no, you are the one who is not reading.
I accep[t that you enjoy the place, I'm grateful as it actually means the my investments continue, but you constantly harp on the fact that because you and your friends have not experienced violent crime, it only exists if you go to a bad area.

Its not my stats or media or facts and figures.

Its the SA Police services Stats that say a hi-jacking or armed robbery or rape happens in the best of suburbs, with the best of security.

Its my and my family and friends experience of living in SA for longer than a wet day that prompts recounting FACTS!

I dont care wether Ed and his family go to SA, I dont care wether you stay or leave.
I would prefer it if you stayed.

but stop this arrogant BS that because Irishlout has'nt experienced anything its all 1929 exageration.


,


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## arnaud

Irish_Lout is right. Crime is an issue off course, however the situation is not as dramatic as quoted in some right-wing forums.
As far as I know, South Africa might have a better future than some western countries :
Debt - external - Country Comparison - TOP 100
Public debt by country. Definition, graph and map.

Lot of opportunities here. It would have been one of the best country in the world without those criminals. Let's hope the situation will improve, there are in this country more hope than many european countries.
South Africa will never be the USA. And you cannot compare South Africa to Australia (Australia does not have neighbour countries like Zimbabwe or Mozambique)

As for Ireland. Daxk, you know this country is backed by the European Union. With the worldwide crisis, the lack of resources such as coal or oil, and the possibility that Turkey will join the EU, the situation is unlikely to improve. However I won't post doom & gloom topics in the Irish forum to convince people to leave or to stay away from Ireland. Everybody thinking of moving to another country knows the challenge. We are old enough


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## Daxk

Arnaud,,Ireland has bigger problems than that,
but we are talking about SA.
The OP asked about safety issues in Sandton,Johannesburg RSA.
Not Dublin or Galway or as Irishlout suggested london or NY.


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## jojo

daxk and Irishlout, you are behaving like a couple of naughty children, now stop it! The question was about safety - so try to offer constructive advise and opinions and quit arguing!

Jo xx


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## Stevan

jojo said:


> daxk and Irishlout, you are behaving like a couple of naughty children, now stop it! The question was about safety - so try to offer constructive advise and opinions and quit arguing!
> 
> Jo xx



I think you will find that this forum has a far less fluffy bunny feel than any other on the site.

The subject of crime and saftey is a very emotional one fro those on here. 
there are always two sides, those that have left SA because of crime and those that have moved there and feel it is not as bad as made out.

I think posters to these threads give the most comprehensive, warts and all replies. Because the subject is so emotional replies do get rather heated. I do not think any replies are meant to be personal attacks, it is hard through this medium to get your true meaning across in some instances. 

From a personal point of view, i enjoy sitting back and watching the fireworks. Many replies have involved a great deal of reasearch before posting.

I think readers of this forum probably get the most coprhensive replies on a very emotive subject than anywhere else.


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## jojo

Stevan said:


> I think you will find that this forum has a far less fluffy bunny feel than any other on the site.
> 
> The subject of crime and saftey is a very emotional one fro those on here.
> there are always two sides, those that have left SA because of crime and those that have moved there and feel it is not as bad as made out.
> 
> I think posters to these threads give the most comprehensive, warts and all replies. Because the subject is so emotional replies do get rather heated. I do not think any replies are meant to be personal attacks, it is hard through this medium to get your true meaning across in some instances.
> 
> From a personal point of view, i enjoy sitting back and watching the fireworks. Many replies have involved a great deal of reasearch before posting.
> 
> I think readers of this forum probably get the most coprhensive replies on a very emotive subject than anywhere else.



You obviously havent visited the "dubai forum" LOL!!!!!! I'm not trying to take away the emotion, cos obviously feelings run high, but personal insults arent pleasant for others to read or are they necessary - that was my point!

I guess the way this post was heading reminded me of my kids !!!!! Anyway, carry on getting heated, but keep it in context and informative! 


Jo xxx


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## Stevan

jojo said:


> You obviously havent visited the "dubai forum" LOL!!!!!! I'm not trying to take away the emotion, cos obviously feelings run high, but personal insults arent pleasant for others to read or are they necessary - that was my point!
> 
> I guess the way this post was heading reminded me of my kids !!!!! Anyway, carry on getting heated, but keep it in context and informative!
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


Off to dubai to watch the fireworks their for a while, thanks for the tip


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## Rod Pringle

*Rod*

Ed & Kathy

The previous posting said a lot of things all of which are true. I am involved bringing lots of people to settle in South Africa, Johannesburg in particular, and most start out with the sort of fears you have. Johannesburg is a lovely city with some of the most sociable people, and one of the finest climates for outdoor activities on the planet. It has wonderful cafe society, restaurants (half the price of equivalent in EU), and dozens of golf courses and other sporting facilities for either participating or watching, again at ridiculosly reasonable prices. It is a city of beautiful suburbs where people entertain at home a lot - mainly having the ubiquitous "braai" or barbeque which is the mosty socially uniting thing about our rainbow nation.

The city is very seductive much like an American or Australian city at first glance, but does have a dark side that must be respected. That is true of any economic hot spot in a sea of comparative poverty. Jozi acts as a magnet for the whole of Africa, and there are huge numbers of economic refugees living here trying to make a buck. That takes the form of everything from selling handicrafts at fleamarkets and traffic lights, up to criminal activities of one sort or another. 

It is vital to get relocation and cross cultural assistance of some sort. Does your new employer consider providing these to you and your family? If they haven't offered it I suggest you ask them.

One statistic - over the past 16 years we have helped nearly 8,000 families settle in Johannesburg, and as yet we have not lost anybody to enemy action. Statistically the most dangerous thing for expatruates is still the traffic, and a couple of driving lessons for Kathy might be a good idea if she is nervous. Security is mainly a matter of being sensible, and most importantly also being aware at the risky moments. Again that sort of thing is best dealt with once you arrive and can arrange assistance from relocation professionals through your employer.


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## Irish Lout

Hi Jo,

I promise to be well behaved (will, try anyway...!)

The problem I have is that while everyone has the right to express their views on this forum Im sick of seeing thread after thread of people asking for advice who are considering living is SA continuously hijacked by tweedledum and tweedledummer eg Daxks and his sidekick Halo (oops, sorry!) who dont stop at providing a view but go on and on with doommongering "facts, stats and figures" designed to scare people off and stop them even considering living here - check the threads of people reading here who decide not to come here - they exist.

My point is I havent had a bad experience living here, either have the colleagues or friends whom im in contact with - so you can throw every stat in the book at me but all I can simply say is that I havent experienced it and it hasnt affected the quality of life which I perceive as very high.

My message to people is its only my view point - come to SA on a visit, see for yourself and make your own mind up. Just because Daxks had a bad time here once upon a time and sit on some distant balcony issuing doom and gloom "facts" like a morbid muppet doesnt mean that SA is the most unfriendly or dangerous place on the planet.

Daxk, stow the facts, put history where it belongs (in the past) and respect the viewpoints of the people actually living in SA in the present reality.


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## Irish Lout

Ok now Ive calmed down in anticipation of another scolding - Rod probably put my points across in a more positive and constructive way - I fully agree with his more balanced post.


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## Daxk

Irishlout, I will apologise if I am insensitive to your viewpoint.
There are many threads that I do not post on either because I do not have the knowledge
or ability to offer any constructive advice.
What will immediately solicit a response is when I percieve someone offering advice that is dangerous.

Living in SA ,because of the criminal element, requires a higher level of awareness and actions than would NORMALLY have been the experience of people asking for advice on this and other Fora.
would you agee with that
I would certainly agree with you that it is very possible to live a life of excellence far better than most emigrants would experience in their own countries.

But the dark side mentioned in the excellent posts by Stevan and rod also raise the danger.
And the majority of personal criminal and violent acts happen because of opportunity.
and opportunity is created by complacency.
would you agree sofar?

And complacency is forged by habit.
Habits that formed in othr Countries.
Three quick examples without the stats (.happy to supply them)

English Mommy on the School run, something wrong at the house of one at the pickups.
habit is the neighbourly thing, stays in the driveway and phones the armed response company.
gun battle ensues, one of her kids gets a stray bullet and is killed.
if she was aware she could have reversed out of there and parked down the road. 

English family in Pretoria,very upmarket suburb, been there 5 years, no problems, back door is open, 4 guys come in, he is shot in front of the kids.
Back door used to be locked.

Journalist from CT, gets a cell phone call, pulls off the highway at Rivonia offramp, while she talks 3 guys walk up to her, she screams, they shoot her, she is dead. if she had travelled another k around the corner she could have pulled into the forecourt of a well lit garage.
and phoned back.

get my drift??
None of those were in bad areas.
all three could have been avoided by thinking what if.
all three were habits formed by complacency.

please believe I do NOT want anything to happen to you or your family.
the Crime reputation is an embarrasment to every South African.

But if you insist on posting that because nothing has happened to you in x number of years
and that its all BS posted by old farts sitting on balconies in the pouring rain hankering after something etc.
then I will take you to task and post credible statistics and stories in support of my argument.
because you are endangering others.

besides, its easy to shut me up.

post credible evidence that the facts I post are distortions.


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## Irish Lout

Daxk, no need to apologise, just think you need to draw the line between a view point and doggedly persuing prospective expats with horror stories and stats to the point where you literally scare them off seriously considering a move to SA.

Look at every positive post on these forums - while they all highlight good experiences in the same breath they also always advise caution and managing the security aspect - yes, including personal awareness. Most (dont pin me down on the exact stat!) of the crimes are concentrated in certain parts of the city, parts where most expats would have no reason or notion to go. Its like being in NY - would you wander around aimlessly at night into Queens?

You give 3 quick examples - all extreme examples (the wife, the kids, the husband) to induce fear and make people believe this is representative of life here in general. Yes, these crimes can happen but the chances of it happening if you stay in the safe parts of the city compared to the general populace..perhaps you have a stat for that, or compare it to being struck by lightening, or pegging it in a plan crash. its important you put it into context.

Let me give you ONE example - something I pulled from the web in approx 3 seconds flat - its a link to todays UK Tekegraph :

UK is violent crime capital of Europe - Telegraph

- UK is the crime capital of Europe
- More than 5.4 million crimes in the year
- Over 10 crimes committed a minute
- 2k crimes per 100k persons per capita
- assults have risen 50% in 5 years
- previous estimates of crime not correct (under recorded) due to data collection errors

Would you like to take me to "task" on this? (now you really are scaring me)

The point is, its very easy to "research" a few examples or stats from the web and use this to portray a particular point of view. What do you think if someone who had never visited the UK had read the above and had someone warning him about needing armed guards, his kids wouldnt be safe etc etc would think about moving to the UK? Who in their right mind would?
But ask anyone actually living in the UK if the above is representative of how they view UK life and if they live in constant fear and danger - they wouldnt be able to relate to this at all. 

So going back to my original point - bad things happen in SA...they happen in every country. You weigh your risks and opportunities, decide whats best for your family and do whats right for you. to help in the decision making process come here, see it, breather it, experience it...then decide. 

So less of the facts crap, and let people have their say. You dont live here anymore and your scrapbook simply isnt up to date.


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## Daxk

Irishlout, I have no intention of dragging this out any further than I have to.
yes, I agree with you that most of the crime is in places that you and other posters on here will avoid.
But my point (ad nauseaum) is that your premise that if they avoid those areas they will be ok is wrong.

I gave three examples and ignored how many thousand armed home robberies in peoples homes in the very upmarket suburbs that seekers of info about living in SA will be living in.
again, not my figures, those posted by the SA Police services by Station.

The Hi-jack figures too are by SAPS Station.
the people taking much neede skills to SA are intelligent,graduated proffessionals,
will they be living in areas such as Sandton?
not Westbury or Ivory Park.
and there are figures for armed robberies and hi-jackings and rapes that are specific to upper income areas. By Station.
as my quick three were, all "outsiders" all in upmarket suburbs.

You have raised the UK.
Fine.
How many Residential armed Robberies /Rapes ,Murders and Hi-jackings were there in the UK in comparable suburbs to lets say Houghton ,Rosebank Sandton, through to Lonehill/Chartwell? 
based on Police Station Crime stats.?
a quick apples with apples. A-income group.
BMW/Merc?Lexus/Audi

so going back to my original point.
"So going back to my original point - bad things happen in SA...they happen in every country. You weigh your risks and opportunities, decide whats best for your family and do whats right for you. to help in the decision making process come here, see it, breather it, experience it...then decide."
kindly show me where I have told people not to go?
But kindly go well informed.

you are welcome to post exactly how wonderful the weather is, how great life is, how nice it is to live there etc.
and you would'nt hear a peep from me.
and you and others have'nt.and you wont

Unless you have a dig about how safe it is.

Oh and:"So less of the facts crap"

How do I ask how you can make decisions about life,safety and business without attacking you?


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## arnaud

We should look at the bright side :
- 5 years ago, doom mongers would have posted some horror stories and facts, and would have told that 500,000 persons leave the country each year. The majority would have supported such reports
- Now when a prophet of doom comes and tells horror stories, those living in the country discuss the matter and draw a much better picture of the country. This is a big move, but now the prophets of doom and those loving the country will battle each others with facts, figures and stories.

Within 5 years I am sure the prophets of doom will be a extinct specie 

Anyway, for those wanting to settle in SA : please remember that, generally, prophets of doom are from right-wing, and pro-SA liberals. The only way to ensure this country is for you, stay in SA for 3 weeks and talk to the people.


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## Rod Pringle

*Rod*



Daxk said:


> Irishlout, I have no intention of dragging this out any further than I have to.
> yes, I agree with you that most of the crime is in places that you and other posters on here will avoid.
> But my point (ad nauseaum) is that your premise that if they avoid those areas they will be ok is wrong.
> 
> I gave three examples and ignored how many thousand armed home robberies in peoples homes in the very upmarket suburbs that seekers of info about living in SA will be living in.
> again, not my figures, those posted by the SA Police services by Station.
> 
> The Hi-jack figures too are by SAPS Station.
> the people taking much neede skills to SA are intelligent,graduated proffessionals,
> will they be living in areas such as Sandton?
> not Westbury or Ivory Park.
> and there are figures for armed robberies and hi-jackings and rapes that are specific to upper income areas. By Station.
> as my quick three were, all "outsiders" all in upmarket suburbs.
> 
> You have raised the UK.
> Fine.
> How many Residential armed Robberies /Rapes ,Murders and Hi-jackings were there in the UK in comparable suburbs to lets say Houghton ,Rosebank Sandton, through to Lonehill/Chartwell?
> based on Police Station Crime stats.?
> a quick apples with apples. A-income group.
> BMW/Merc?Lexus/Audi
> 
> so going back to my original point.
> "So going back to my original point - bad things happen in SA...they happen in every country. You weigh your risks and opportunities, decide whats best for your family and do whats right for you. to help in the decision making process come here, see it, breather it, experience it...then decide."
> kindly show me where I have told people not to go?
> But kindly go well informed.
> 
> you are welcome to post exactly how wonderful the weather is, how great life is, how nice it is to live there etc.
> and you would'nt hear a peep from me.
> and you and others have'nt.and you wont
> 
> Unless you have a dig about how safe it is.
> 
> Oh and:"So less of the facts crap"
> 
> How do I ask how you can make decisions about life,safety and business without attacking you?


Daxk, we seem to have started a lively debate here. 
I have some considerable experience with inbound expatriates suffering from various levels of apprehension about Jozi's reputation, right up to abject terror. Almost without exception they (with proper professional assistance) have got over it, and have happy and fulfilling stay in the city. 
Yes as I said in my previous post it has a dark side, and gratuitous violence in the commission of crime is a large part of it, but by taking sensible preciautions that must become second nature, the risks of becoming a victim can be minimised. As you point out, the danger is complacency, and Jozi is a very seductive place, which can easily encourage just that.
I think the other correspendent is simply sick and tired (as am I)of the sort of negative vitriol, some of it one has to say more than a little racist, that pours from the mouths of so many SA emmigrants.


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## Stevan

For a wee second there i could feel the love in the room. 
Gentlemaen and ladys debate away. the only way that things will change in south africa is for its dirty linen to be aired in public.

Daxk please forgive me for the over simplification of my next point.

Ireland has a dark and somtimes deadly past. Many statesman will offer the fact that they helped broker peace. I offer you this.



> When Egil Aarvik, vice-chairman of the committee presented the postponed 1976 prize to Betty Williams and Mairead Corrigan in 1977, he began his speech with a graphic description of the tragic accident that had occurred the previous August on a street in Belfast in Northern Ireland. A car out of control, its driver an Irish Republican Army (IRA) gunman shot dead fleeing from British soldiers, smashed into a family out for a walk. Two of the children were killed outright, the third was mortally injured, and the mother critically injured.
> 
> This senseless killing of innocent children produced a wave of revulsion against the violence which had been sweeping Northern Ireland, with Catholic IRA members using murder and terror to drive out the British, Protestant extremists doing the same in response, and many innocent victims killed as a consequence. The movement was led by Betty Williams, a housewife who came upon the scene after she heard the shot, and Mairead Corrigan, the young aunt of the dead children.
> 
> Aarvik told how the two women led marches in which Protestants and Catholics walked together in demonstrations for peace and against violence. That so many people in Northern Ireland had recognized that violence cannot bring social justice, Aarvik declared, gave hope that this could be "the dawn of a new day bringing lasting peace to the sorely tried people of Ulster."


My point, it was a group of mums who realy put ireland on the road to peace.

South Africa will not be changed by Polatitians it will be changed by people on the street saying enough is enough. 

When will it happen, maybe never. But nobody messes with a large enough group of angry mothers.


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## Daxk

Stevan, I agree wholeheartedly that nothing changes unless all parties come to the party.
(excuse the pun)
There are many other examples where Community group action brought about change.

But for a bunch of angry mothers to change things means that someone who has the actual power to change things , listens.

In actual fact, SA could change their things around very quickly.
The broader Community of SA want it, there have been umpteen marches and petitions delivered, even to the State Presidents office.
There have been Radio Campaigns by 702 and Cape Talk.
First National Bank tried to print a full page letter to the President a few years ago that was squashed because of Govt pressure.
all of those marches and petitions were handed to a minor functionary and filed in the waste basket.
and National Archives

lets face it,how difficult is it really?
The main motivators for crime in SA are:
Financial Gain
Low level of accountability.
Power and anger.
Nil Control on Illegal Immigration.

The only way out of all of this is education and accountability.
an Effective Justice system that works and punishment is seen to be done.
Job creation
Housing Creation.

all of those are do-able and if you took the money spent on:
The Arms Deal
Gautrain
WC 2010 (Tourism? they are expecting 450,000 people for how many Billions spent?)
Name changes from people we have forgotten who they were to people no-one really knows..
and Fraud.

That could address education and job creation quite easily.

Justice and accountability are also easily addressed.
Punish criminal activity and malfeasance from the top down.

The border Control too is very easy.
all the systems are in place,just switch the fences on again and deploy the army to patrol
( yes, they are finally listening to that proposal,its only taken 9 years)

what is actually so difficult about all of the above?
Its easy, its basics,
so why is'nt it being done?

why are'nt they listening to the people?


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## Stevan

Call me an optomist an idealist or just plain stupid, I do believe that the will of the people will be done eventualy. 

In these situations there always seems to be a catalyst that sets somthing momentous into motion. 

ok I am going to remove my rose coloured spectacles now, then the plan is to wake up and smell the coffee.

I dont want to go back to things that I have already posted. I am happy here and I have no intention of leaving. And yes i used to say the same thing about the UK.


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## Irish Lout

Daxk its easy for you to sit in your rocking chair in Ireland and get all pessimisstic that things will never change in SA (and in your mind, nothings changed since you last left in 1929).

Let me offer a hopeful suggestion - why dont you think about redirecting all that time and energy that you seem to be spending on this forum acting as the "\Prophet of Doom" and instead devote yourself more productively into a force for positive change for SA - maybe come up with some sort of campaign or internet awareness group. 

If we can convert even 10% of your negativity and energy into positive change I reckon we could have SA's crime problem solved by Xmas!

Then we can all sit around the log fire in our reindeer woolly jumpers holding hands, sharing eggnog and singing xmas carols.

Whadya think?


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## Daxk

Irishlout, 
been there, sold the t-shirt factory.
They formed some committess to "engage" with the problem.
the reports were submitted for consideration and considered fruitful.
Do me a favour, google Meyer Khan and BAC,
give him a call, he is retired,buy him a cup of coffee.

you have gone there to make a difference.Volunteer some work
a bit of your time to give something to SA
aka Niall Mellon type,
Go and teach some adults some basic literacy.
go and make some tea and do some courses and help out at either POWA or the Rape Crises Centre.Walk the talk, Lout,
I have, done my bit, sitting in my "rocking chair" now according to you.
Your turn.
Know what? you wont.

Because you have a magic passport that means you can get to the airport and leave.
You dont like facts because they make you uncomfortable.
so let me make a hopeful suggestion, you are young, intelligent, believe in the Country.
take up SA citizenship, but give up your Passport.
Thats it.
same as a whole bunch of South africans who cant leave if they wished.

SA forever, thick and thin, till death do you part.
you wont do that either.
its just all talk.


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## Rod Pringle

*Rod*

Guys, this thread is getting way too philosphical for an expat communication site! The original question pertained to practical way in which a potential expatriate can ensure the safety of his family in Sandton. 

We all agree Jozi is a dangerous place - that's partly what makes it exciting. It's not just the villains, there are the taxis and other maniac drivers of German cars to deal with on one's daily dice on the roads. Swimming pools are also a major killer of children in the city. 

All the above dangers can be minimised by sensible precautions and behaviours. I just wanted to say that there are 3.8 Million people in greater Johannesburg (in an area the same size as Greater London incidentally), including tens of thousands of expatriates of all persuasions, so a newcomer will certainly not be alone - and there's lots of help available.





Daxk said:


> Irishlout,
> been there, sold the t-shirt factory.
> They formed some committess to "engage" with the problem.
> the reports were submitted for consideration and considered fruitful.
> Do me a favour, google Meyer Khan and BAC,
> give him a call, he is retired,buy him a cup of coffee.
> 
> you have gone there to make a difference.Volunteer some work
> a bit of your time to give something to SA
> aka Niall Mellon type,
> Go and teach some adults some basic literacy.
> go and make some tea and do some courses and help out at either POWA or the Rape Crises Centre.Walk the talk, Lout,
> I have, done my bit, sitting in my "rocking chair" now according to you.
> Your turn.
> Know what? you wont.
> 
> Because you have a magic passport that means you can get to the airport and leave.
> You dont like facts because they make you uncomfortable.
> so let me make a hopeful suggestion, you are young, intelligent, believe in the Country.
> take up SA citizenship, but give up your Passport.
> Thats it.
> same as a whole bunch of South africans who cant leave if they wished.
> 
> SA forever, thick and thin, till death do you part.
> you wont do that either.
> its just all talk.


----------



## Irish Lout

...exactly the sort of response I was expecting from you Daxk.

"Been there, sold the t-shirt factory" - you mean you sat on your arse on the sidelines with your t-shirt back to front, watched others efforts fail (least they tried, eh) and are either too shallow or just too dammed lazy to pull your finger out (or at least away from the keyboard) to do anything about it - oh thats right you cant - you ******ed off to Ireland 70 years ago!

...and youve got the cheek to challenge me to "make a difference". Youre having a laugh, right? Im living here, I moved my family down here, Im doing my part to contribute both in developing the local industry and economy here - yeah, doing it all in this dangerous, gangster crime ridden country you are so keen depict. Walk the talk? Im running and gunning - streets ahead of you mate.

Oh and that magic passport? Ive been away from Ireland for almost 20 years - visited and lived in countries you have only googled about - had my fair share of battening down the hatches during a few scary moments and not once evacuated or parachuted out. I'll live in SA for as long as I enjoy it and feel Im making a valuable contribution - why does having to give up a passport and consign myself to living in one country make me a "talker"?

Sit back on that rocking chair with your deliverance banjo and rail against the world (well SA only) . Your 15k miles away, outa touch and outa time. Time for the real SA to continue developing, improving and getting better every year - with or without you.


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## Daxk

"Been there, sold the t-shirt factory" - you mean you sat on your arse on the sidelines with your t-shirt back to front, watched others efforts fail (least they tried, eh) and are either too shallow or just too dammed lazy to pull your finger out (or at least away from the keyboard) to do anything about it - oh thats right you cant - you ******ed off to Ireland 70 years ago!"

Assumptions! Assumptions!
You have certainly learnt nothing in all your years of wandering around about conflict resolution,
shout the messenger down if you cant disprove his points.
if that wont work, try and belittle or demean.



Yawn!!!
goodbye irishlout, you chose your nick well.


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## jojo

are you two never gonna realise that you wont ever agree, so why dont you just agree to disagree now eh???

Jo xxx


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## Irish Lout

...Jo, maybe I can go one better...

Hey Daxk, why dont you come back to Joburg (my guest) for a holiday and let me show you first hand the quality of life I have here. 

Heck, I'll even let you play your banjo!


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## jojo

Irish Lout said:


> ...Jo, maybe I can go one better...
> 
> Hey Daxk, why dont you come back to Joburg (my guest) for a holiday and let me show you first hand the quality of life I have here.
> 
> Heck, I'll even let you play your banjo!


Why?? What you should do is count how many posts you two have been banging on for 

Jo xx


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## Irish Lout

I'll leave the counting to Daxk, hes the expect with stats and figures.

Anyway Jo, if Daxk doesnt take me up on the offer why dont you fly over from Spain and spend a few days down here - I can introduce you to a few of the local gangsters, case a few of the seedy joints etc - but dont worry I'll have armed guards lined up and you'll get issued with an AK47!


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## jojo

Irish Lout said:


> I'll leave the counting to Daxk, hes the expect with stats and figures.
> 
> Anyway Jo, if Daxk doesnt take me up on the offer why dont you fly over from Spain and spend a few days down here - I can introduce you to a few of the local gangsters, case a few of the seedy joints etc - but dont worry I'll have armed guards lined up and you'll get issued with an AK47!



Thanks for the offer, but I left the UK cos it was too violent for me !!!! :rofl::rofl::rofl:


Jo xxx


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## Daxk

No need,lout, my House is 30 minutes away from you as is my office.

I could climb on a plane, walk into my office, put the battery and sim in my cell phone in the drawer , give my tenant notice, send out a quick group sms to my friends,
charge up the battery in the car as well as my classic.

walk across the road and clear the post box, collect the expired visa and atm cards from my bank, tow the hobie and the Daysailer down to Witbank dam and you would swear I've never been away.

5 years and its all there,all running sweetly.

pop down the road and see my 80 year old mother, my neices and nephews,brothers and sister.would be nice for granny to spend more time with my daughter in her last years.

Financially, I would be better off, I could accept the partnership offer on the one Irish business, I would have my very comfortable SA Income, my euro income, I dont have any debts or Mortgages on any of the properties.

I would have better weather, Family, Friends, I could drag the old 600 Honda XR out and go 
scrambling or go sailing or take the classic for long runs down the K'dorp highway for lunch.

Idyllic, is'nt it?

So why dont I?
I too have led a very full life.lots of stamps and visa's in lots of Countries, and quite honestly, SA is the best except for one teensy little thing.

Its not the bits of lead still in my leg that still sets of metal detectors when I fly, I know to arrive early enough, that did'nt drive me out of SA.

Its not the two failed Hi-jack attempts and a mugging either,

Africa's not for sissies and I've handled more danger in Angola, Congo/Rwanda and Lagos, Nigeria than that.

it was'nt the four guys and the lookout who tagged me finally and spent an hour in the house with us while my 5 year old daughter hid in the bushes with the baby sitter.

Wife did'nt get raped,I did'nt get shot, he was a pro and kept just out of reach and his lines of fire clear.

That didn't make me reach for an airline schedule.

what did then?

Its not AA or BEE, they did not affect me and I mentored and trained a young guy up from when he was in Grade 10, he is 35 now.

he is like a son and brother to my daughter.

Its not racism, strictly speaking I could qualify to an element of disadvantaged.
I have had and have Black friends, Indian Friends and Coloured Friends (only 1 chinese) dating back almost 45 years

Its not Politics, as long as business keeps on going and there is'nt too much tax Business under the Nats and Business under the ANC is much the same.
Besides, I am an ANC member.

So as you make all these assumptions, Irishlout, why did I move my family out of SA when I was 54?

arrive in a colder, wetter climate where I knew less than 10 people with 4 suitcases and three palletlloads of toys and personal stuff?

That I have succeeded here in Irealnd is nice, its always nice to know that your faith in yourself is justified.
That you haven't lost your touch to see niches and exploit them.

Tell me, Irishlout.
why would I do that?
what scenarios could you come up with that would drive me and keep me away from SA?
seeing as you make all these assumptions.

Oh, I will be back in SA,
February or March, depending on when the AGM's are
There's no problem with going back for a short visit, I find i'm back into 360 mode within a day or two.
It is a risk, but its only for three weeks rather than 52.
and hopefully we wont have forgotten our lessons.

But I do so look forward to your assumptions.


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## Irish Lout

Long post Daxk, but consider this...why did I decide to leave Ireland and prefer live in SA?

Maybe you can cme up with better assumptions? Then again you dont have to - and I see you had absolutely no counter argument to my point on the UK crime article.

Case closed.


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## jag07

Beachi said:


> Edward and Kathy
> A previous post about being close to your work in Bryanston is valid. ....


Beachi, how would you compare Moscow vs Johannesburg safety/security wise? Comparison of medical care quality, lifestyle would be of interest too...


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## Daxk

Irish Lout said:


> Long post Daxk, but consider this...why did I decide to leave Ireland and prefer live in SA?
> 
> Maybe you can cme up with better assumptions? Then again you dont have to - and I see you had absolutely no counter argument to my point on the UK crime article.
> 
> Case closed.


Say what????
I repeat:
"You have raised the UK.
Fine.
How many Residential armed Robberies /Rapes ,Murders and Hi-jackings were there in the UK in comparable suburbs to lets say Houghton ,Rosebank Sandton, through to Lonehill/Chartwell? 
based on Police Station Crime stats.?
a quick apples with apples. 
A-income group.
BMW/Merc?Lexus/Audi"

I was waiting for your comparisons.
apples with apples, Worcester or Sussex maybe,
Houses in sandton/fourways might be better but am sure you can try.


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## Daxk

Irish Lout said:


> Long post Daxk, but consider this...why did I decide to leave Ireland and prefer live in SA?
> 
> Maybe you can cme up with better assumptions?
> Case closed.


Depending on your age when you left.
Your parents moved across.

or: you were young and wanted adventure.
and 20 years ago the dole queues were around the block.

you still have'nt told me what was more important in my life than 
sunshine, easy success, all the wonderful bits you have been describing.

What would make you pack up everything, virtually close up shop and walk away tomorrow?
what is more important in your life than anything else?


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## Daxk

Irish Lout said:


> ...Jo, maybe I can go one better...
> 
> Heck, I'll even let you play your banjo!


Always enjoyed Deliverance, and yes, I've wondered about the Irish villages and the famine and who was left to marry after the emigration.


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## Irish Lout

Daxk, youre rambling now and we are starting to bore people.

I moved from Ireland to SA, you moved from SA to Ireland. We have different backgrounds, different experience, different motivations. 

So give an opinion, understand that people may want different things, and stop thinking its your god given mission to scare off anyone on this planet who is considering moving to SA (there is a difference to advising people to use caution and common sense in a country where crime is a problem and using selective stats and preying on peoples fears to scare the living daylights out of them).

Maybe you need to get out more or get a new hobby? ireland not exciting enough for ya?


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## Daxk

"So give an opinion,"
I did and you undertook a personal mission of insults and denigration.

you obviously cannot either answer the straightforward questions I asked of you or conduct a civil discussion.
and when you paint yourself into a corner, you shoot the messenger.


hobbies? in Ireland I have plenty, I also have lots of time.
And South Africa and what happens there interests me.
For obvious reasons.


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## jojo

I'm gonna close this thread, its boring and unecessary! Sorry guys maybe PM each other instead


Jo xxxx


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