# San Cristobal, Chiapas



## grotton

Greetings,
I am new to the Expatforum and have found it filled with great information and a lot of fun to read. I am hoping that some here can share there knowledge/experience with us as we plan a move to Mexico.

After 21 years in law enforcement I am feeling stretched a little thin and think it might be time for retirement. My partner (a Mexican national) and I are considering relocating to San Cristobal. He is originally from Tuxtla, Chiapas and has roots in that city and together we have visited San Cristobal and found it enchanting (we live in Seattle, WA now so can handle rain and chilly weather.) We want to rent for six months to a year and if we are happy buy land and build something. I imagine buying land some place close to the City that will provide room for gardens and our dog to play safely and a house that integrates nicely. We would need access to the internet so infrastructure concerns. Has anyone built and if so have knowledge about costs? 

Our budget will be approximately $36,000 a year after taxes and I wonder how far this will stretch in San Cris. I really have no idea what to expect about the cost of living other then my partner insists it is cheap. But to be honest, when we visited last year it didn't seem super cheap to me. We had a vacation rental house in the city center that was lovely, smallish with a nice walled garden. This was $600.00 a week but I understand it can be rented for $900.00 a month including utilities (not gas), internet, local phone. 

What do Expats do in San Cristobal? I was a Peace Corps volunteer and taught english in Thailand so thought I might try to teach either in San Cris or Tuxtla. Any thoughts? My partner is a chef so probably he would work in a restaurant but he is also talking about opening a catering business. 

I realize this post is general but I'm leaving it open to invite people with knowledge of San Cristobal/Chiapas to share their thoughts and experiences. Oh, also, I am teaching myself Spanish and now can get by but need some time in country I think to speed up my recall and and improve conversation. My partner is of course fluent. 

Oh, yes, cars. I have a car in Seattle (a Subaru Outback.) Should we sell this and buy a car in Tuxtla or bring it down with us? Its a 2010. If we drove down we would stop in GDL where my partner's family also lives. 

Health insurance. Can we buy the Mexican social security in Tuxtla and how much does it cost? 

Ok, I'm getting specific which I just said I wasn't going to do. 

Cheers and thanks in advance!

Glenn


----------



## conklinwh

1st, $36K/year should be more than sufficient unless you live in the $200K+ range in the US. There is a person that posts who has a place in Chiapas as well as GDL area. He has advised in the past to be very careful about buying, especially outside the city. With the heavy indigenous population there are a lot more difficulties as he has pointed out in the past. Really suggest that you rent a place for at least 6 months. Would think that $900++/mo would be more than sufficient.
San Cristobal is one of our favorite places to visit. It feels very european to me but with some very colorful people. The markets are truly wonderful. We would seriously think about living there if wasn't so far to the Texas border as we have a varied scattered family in the US.
Car decision is really a personal one. You can easily bring with you and as long as you are on the an FMM or the equivalents of FM3 or certain versions of FM2 you will have no problem. There was a similar question just asked on the "...vehicle" thread.


----------



## ptrichmondmike

conklinwh said:


> 1st, $36K/year should be more than sufficient unless you live in the $200K+ range in the US. There is a person that posts who has a place in Chiapas as well as GDL area. He has advised in the past to be very careful about buying, especially outside the city. With the heavy indigenous population there are a lot more difficulties as he has pointed out in the past. Really suggest that you rent a place for at least 6 months. Would think that $900++/mo would be more than sufficient.
> San Cristobal is one of our favorite places to visit. It feels very european to me but with some very colorful people. The markets are truly wonderful. We would seriously think about living there if wasn't so far to the Texas border as we have a varied scattered family in the US.
> Car decision is really a personal one. You can easily bring with you and as long as you are on the an FMM or the equivalents of FM3 or certain versions of FM2 you will have no problem. There was a similar question just asked on the "...vehicle" thread.


Glad to hear your endorsement of San Cristobal, wh...I was there for a day more than 40 years ago and must have been abusing something because I don't recall much beyond how colorful it was...missed the market, drat!...but I like what you say about it here. It's not on my current "hot 5" as I think about where to live in Mexico, but it is on the radar screen -- so I'll definitely have to give it a week or more to check it out. Thanks.

BTW, still thinking about Mineral de Pozos!


----------



## conklinwh

Glad to here that we are still on your list.
A couple things.
-We love Pozos-the tranquility, the beauty, the people, the history.
-Some would say Pozos is a little bit of an acquired taste.
-Very few, but certainly a reasonable number, actually start in Pozos when they move to Mexico as quite a change for most of the US. For the most part, they pick an "easier" transition such as San Miguel for at least 6-12mo(took us 4 winters).


----------



## ptrichmondmike

conklinwh said:


> Glad to here that we are still on your list.
> A couple things.
> -We love Pozos-the tranquility, the beauty, the people, the history.
> -Some would say Pozos is a little bit of an acquired taste.
> -Very few, but certainly a reasonable number, actually start in Pozos when they move to Mexico as quite a change for most of the US. For the most part, they pick an "easier" transition such as San Miguel for at least 6-12mo(took us 4 winters).


Lol...amigo, San Miguel is NOT on my list, as much as the name of my patron saint thrills me to the core. I do not want either Gringolandia OR Disneyland to be my fate. If I want artists, I'll look to a place like Erongaricuaro, in Michoacan -- certainly not to SMA. I recently read a book by John Scherber comprised of interviews of 32 people who are expats in SMA -- 30 of them have built or renovated mansions, it seems. Sorry, I'm just a liberal who spent his career in non-profits, so that's not an option for me.

But San Cristobal or Pozos...peace and quiet...claro!


----------



## conklinwh

This isn't the place to debate SMA but for every ****** sunbird with a mansion there are at least two and maybe a 100 artists that live very frugally on the economy. In fact there is quite a push back by the very liberal expat community that is very upset that SMA had been an artist community dedicated to helping Mexico through non-profits for 50 years and it was being invaded by a small but ostentations group that fly in for vacations and weekends and do nothing for the town. 
However, what is really happening is that tourism has shifted from heavily ****** to heavily Mexican, most from D.F., and that has it's own dynamic.


----------



## ptrichmondmike

conklinwh said:


> This isn't the place to debate SMA but for every ****** sunbird with a mansion there are at least two and maybe a 100 artists that live very frugally on the economy. In fact there is quite a push back by the very liberal expat community that is very upset that SMA had been an artist community dedicated to helping Mexico through non-profits for 50 years and it was being invaded by a small but ostentations group that fly in for vacations and weekends and do nothing for the town.
> However, what is really happening is that tourism has shifted from heavily ****** to heavily Mexican, most from D.F., and that has it's own dynamic.


Thank you for the reality check. I only know what I read, so far.


----------



## Isla Verde

conklinwh said:


> This isn't the place to debate SMA but for every ****** sunbird with a mansion there are at least two and maybe a 100 artists that live very frugally on the economy. In fact there is quite a push back by the very liberal expat community that is very upset that SMA had been an artist community dedicated to helping Mexico through non-profits for 50 years and it was being invaded by a small but ostentations group that fly in for vacations and weekends and do nothing for the town.
> However, what is really happening is that tourism has shifted from heavily ****** to heavily Mexican, most from D.F., and that has it's own dynamic.



How has the change in the nationality of the tourists affected the city?


----------



## grotton

Isla Verde said:


> How has the change in the nationality of the tourists affected the city?


Not to be rude, but I was hoping for information on San Cristobal here and a personal conversation seems to have broken out. Any chance of taking it off line?


----------



## vantexan

grotton said:


> Not to be rude, but I was hoping for information on San Cristobal here and a personal conversation seems to have broken out. Any chance of taking it off line?


See my "Moved by the Spirit" thread for more meandering, LOL!! I've never been to San Cristobal, but I've read everything I could find about it. From what I've read the altitude combined with the serious rainy season in Chiapas makes for very cold temps part of the year. At least at night and early morning and SC is known for not having heat in hotel rooms. It appears, judging by Lonely Planet Thorn Tree posts, to get many more European visitors than American. An American/French couple who have posted here in the past spend part of the year there. They love it and their posts here are worth searching for. Search for Hound Dog and Vichil. Or just search for San Cristobal to pull up their posts. Mexico is a large country with many options so many here will know their city and region but Chiapas is so far from everything that you might have better luck asking travelers on the Thorn Tree, some of whom currently live in SC. I have read there that housing prices have risen dramatically so that may what you observed. There is another city that comes highly recommended called Comitan. It has a lower elevation with warmer but nice climate and everything I've read about it is very positive except maybe it's a little remote. It is certainly cheaper than SC and isn't overwhelmed with tourists. SC is surrounded by Mayan villages. Buying land there might be difficult. Good luck!


----------



## grotton

I shouldn't criticize as I almost always am off topic myself. Thanks for the info on San Cris and Comitan. I think we need to be there for at least a six months to a year to experience the place before committing to buying. My partner's family owns a restaurant in Tuxtla in the biggest mall there and he showed me pictures of a river running through the mall during a flash flood after days of rain. It really was a river. I mentioned Comitan to him and he seemed uninterested. Too far out was my sense but I enjoy peace and quiet. All of our Mexican friends and family love San Cristobal but I'm looking for the expat perspective as I am not Mexican. Lots to learn.


----------



## Isla Verde

grotton said:


> All of our Mexican friends and family love San Cristobal but I'm looking for the expat perspective as I am not Mexican. Lots to learn.


I love visiting San Cristóbal, but for various reasons would not want to live there. Do your Mexican friends and family live in San Cristóbal, or is it just a favorite city to vacation in?


----------



## grotton

Isla Verde said:


> I love visiting San Cristóbal, but for various reasons would not want to live there. Do your Mexican friends and family live in San Cristóbal, or is it just a favorite city to vacation in?


They live in Tuxtla Gutierrez, at least some still do. A large contingent moved to GDL chasing careers. His family is well known in Tuxtla. Interesting story. His grandfather immigrated from China to Tuxtla 70 years ago not knowing a single word of Spanish. He invested in the area, opened a hardware store, purchased land, made money importing fireworks, eventually bought hotels and restaurants and became one of the richest business men in Tuxtla. My partner is 1/4 Chinese and 3/4 Mexican. His father still lives in Tuxtla. I read a lot of posts from frustrated expats unable to negotiate real estate transaction, failing at business etc, and I'm not saying it's not hard in Mexico. But for a Chinese immigrant unable to speak of word of Spanish who didn't know a soul in Mexico to succeed the way he did, I guess it's got to be possible.


----------



## vantexan

grotton said:


> I shouldn't criticize as I almost always am off topic myself. Thanks for the info on San Cris and Comitan. I think we need to be there for at least a six months to a year to experience the place before committing to buying. My partner's family owns a restaurant in Tuxtla in the biggest mall there and he showed me pictures of a river running through the mall during a flash flood after days of rain. It really was a river. I mentioned Comitan to him and he seemed uninterested. Too far out was my sense but I enjoy peace and quiet. All of our Mexican friends and family love San Cristobal but I'm looking for the expat perspective as I am not Mexican. Lots to learn.


For an excellent overview you can get the Moon Chiapas Handbook from Amazon. Also Hound Dog once called the town of Chiapa de Corzo the best small city in Mexico. It's just outside Tuxtla and is the gateway to the Sumidero Canyon. He also very much liked the restaurant scene in Tuxtla. Unfortunately the climate is very hot. And if you are curious about what it all looks like YouTube has many many videos posted. There are a number of videos that look professionally done by an outfit called Rinconesdemitierra. If you search for Comitan there you'll see their short video that illustrates just how beautiful Chiapas is.


----------



## Bruce in SCLC

*life in SCLC*

Hi, Glenn, not sure why my google news alert for San Cristóbal referred me to your post, but since it did, I'll answer some of you questions (and put in a little plug for my business). 

Is it cheap to live in San Cris? Basically, yes. The vast majority get by on much less than you will have. You should be able to live very well. Generally speaking, services are relatively inexpensive (people are not well paid), as are simple food and restaurants, while manufactured goods are more expensive than in the states. 

Rental housing is also relatively inexpensive. If you take your time you should be able to find something attractive in your price range. I have 3 fully-furnished apartments set up as vacation rentals (google "casa lily chiapas facebook") that could be a good base for you as you look for something more permanent. Buying a house or land is much more expensive than it was just 10-15 years ago...no real estate bust here. When you rent or purchase, make sure to consider what that place will be like in the winter and the rainy season. Much of San Cristóbal is filled in wetlands and is susceptible to flooding, so ask around and look for places a little higher up. Look for well-ventilated housing and southern exposures. Also keep in mind that the water system is stretched thin so you should find out how often the water from SAPAM comes in and make sure you have adequate cisterns or "tinacos" (roof-top tanks) to meet your needs when water from SAPAM isn't flowing.

Health insurance. Not sure it would make sense to buy into the public system here. The local public hospitals are poorly staffed and poorly equipped and Tuxtla isn't much better. Sometimes the best you can get from them is a referral to a better facility in the DF, but that involves a lot of red tape. Your best option is to stay healthy. There are a few good docs here but in general, the poor quality of the health care system is one of the few drawbacks of living here.

Vehicle. The Subaru would be a great car to have here, except that you won't find parts for it. So, unfortunately, I would suggest buying something else.

Employment. Lots of foreigners start small business here and some have been quite successful. Work in the service sector tends to be poorly compensated. If you want to volunteer, get in touch with "Amigos de San Cristóbal." They support several local organizations through philanthropy and volunteerism and could help place you.

Hope this is helpful.


----------



## grotton

Bruce in SCLC said:


> Hi, Glenn, not sure why my google news alert for San Cristóbal referred me to your post, but since it did, I'll answer some of you questions (and put in a little plug for my business).
> 
> Is it cheap to live in San Cris? Basically, yes. The vast majority get by on much less than you will have. You should be able to live very well. Generally speaking, services are relatively inexpensive (people are not well paid), as are simple food and restaurants, while manufactured goods are more expensive than in the states.
> 
> Rental housing is also relatively inexpensive. If you take your time you should be able to find something attractive in your price range. I have 3 fully-furnished apartments set up as vacation rentals (google "casa lily chiapas facebook") that could be a good base for you as you look for something more permanent. Buying a house or land is much more expensive than it was just 10-15 years ago...no real estate bust here. When you rent or purchase, make sure to consider what that place will be like in the winter and the rainy season. Much of San Cristóbal is filled in wetlands and is susceptible to flooding, so ask around and look for places a little higher up. Look for well-ventilated housing and southern exposures. Also keep in mind that the water system is stretched thin so you should find out how often the water from SAPAM comes in and make sure you have adequate cisterns or "tinacos" (roof-top tanks) to meet your needs when water from SAPAM isn't flowing.
> 
> Health insurance. Not sure it would make sense to buy into the public system here. The local public hospitals are poorly staffed and poorly equipped and Tuxtla isn't much better. Sometimes the best you can get from them is a referral to a better facility in the DF, but that involves a lot of red tape. Your best option is to stay healthy. There are a few good docs here but in general, the poor quality of the health care system is one of the few drawbacks of living here.
> 
> Vehicle. The Subaru would be a great car to have here, except that you won't find parts for it. So, unfortunately, I would suggest buying something else.
> 
> Employment. Lots of foreigners start small business here and some have been quite successful. Work in the service sector tends to be poorly compensated. If you want to volunteer, get in touch with "Amigos de San Cristóbal." They support several local organizations through philanthropy and volunteerism and could help place you.
> 
> Hope this is helpful.


Thanks for the information. Your house and apartments looks beautiful. Clearly you take good care of it. Where is it located? We looks at some properties last time we were there on a hill side, I think still in San Cristobal, but kind of on the outskirts. Also we looked at a house for sale by an Australian couple who wanted to move home. And we stayed in the city center... so those are the areas I can kind of describe haha. 

I was curious to know a little more about the water system. is SAPAM the municipal water system? I asked one guy who was selling his property about water supply and he looked nervously away and said I shouldn't have any problems. Made me wonder. Do all areas in San Cristobal have water issues? 

I was afraid the Subaru might be a problem down there. I know there is a big new Subaru dealership in GDL but am not surprised they haven't made it down there yet. At least I could have parts shipped down but maybe we should switch out for a Volkswagen. That's seems to be a favorite down there.


----------



## Bruce in SCLC

HI, Glenn. The apts are in the Delicias neighborhood, on the edge of El Cerrillo and Barrio de Guadalupe. They're a pleasant 15 min. walk from the zócalo, and maybe half that to the Guadalupe walking street. There's a map and email on the facebook page if you'd like more info.

Yes, SAPAM is the municipal water and drainage system and it's kind of a disaster. People who live near the pumping stations might get water every day, or even constantly, but most neighborhoods only get water 2-3 times a week for several hours. And because you can't even count on that, those who can afford it have cisterns. 5000 L is a good size. There are neighborhoods, like Cuxtitali and Alcanfores, that have separate water systems with their own sets of issues. 

You made me curious about Subarus so I just googled and found that there is in fact a dealership in Tuxtla. I guess as your compañero is tuxtlecto you'll be making frequent trips anyway, so going there for service wouldn't be a big deal, and with a 2010 you shouldn't have too many issues. Might be worth calling them to find out if they stock parts for your model. VW, Nissan and the (formerly) big 3 are the most common here. Honda and Toyota are starting to get a foothold and you see some Seats and Fiats.

-Bruce


----------



## surfrider

grotton said:


> Greetings,
> I am new to the Expatforum and have found it filled with great information and a lot of fun to read. I am hoping that some here can share there knowledge/experience with us as we plan a move to Mexico.
> 
> After 21 years in law enforcement I am feeling stretched a little thin and think it might be time for retirement. My partner (a Mexican national) and I are considering relocating to San Cristobal. He is originally from Tuxtla, Chiapas and has roots in that city and together we have visited San Cristobal and found it enchanting (we live in Seattle, WA now so can handle rain and chilly weather.) We want to rent for six months to a year and if we are happy buy land and build something. I imagine buying land some place close to the City that will provide room for gardens and our dog to play safely and a house that integrates nicely. We would need access to the internet so infrastructure concerns. Has anyone built and if so have knowledge about costs?
> 
> Our budget will be approximately $36,000 a year after taxes and I wonder how far this will stretch in San Cris. I really have no idea what to expect about the cost of living other then my partner insists it is cheap. But to be honest, when we visited last year it didn't seem super cheap to me. We had a vacation rental house in the city center that was lovely, smallish with a nice walled garden. This was $600.00 a week but I understand it can be rented for $900.00 a month including utilities (not gas), internet, local phone.
> 
> What do Expats do in San Cristobal? I was a Peace Corps volunteer and taught english in Thailand so thought I might try to teach either in San Cris or Tuxtla. Any thoughts? My partner is a chef so probably he would work in a restaurant but he is also talking about opening a catering business.
> 
> I realize this post is general but I'm leaving it open to invite people with knowledge of San Cristobal/Chiapas to share their thoughts and experiences. Oh, also, I am teaching myself Spanish and now can get by but need some time in country I think to speed up my recall and and improve conversation. My partner is of course fluent.
> 
> Oh, yes, cars. I have a car in Seattle (a Subaru Outback.) Should we sell this and buy a car in Tuxtla or bring it down with us? Its a 2010. If we drove down we would stop in GDL where my partner's family also lives.
> 
> Health insurance. Can we buy the Mexican social security in Tuxtla and how much does it cost?
> 
> Ok, I'm getting specific which I just said I wasn't going to do.
> 
> Cheers and thanks in advance!
> 
> Glenn


Hi, I am surfrider and I lived in San Cristobal - loved the town. I also lived in Seattle area well outside seattle in Isaquah and Renton for about 14 years. Born and raised at the beach in southern CA. Night life in San Cris is great and the rent is fine there. There is this place Kukurutz Residencia Hotel San Cristobal De Las Casas - you can long term rent there or just spend a few days. Nice place - they have kitchens laundry maid garden area and take pets. tell them Donna sent you. and also tell him Hi. rent was around 700 for a two story unit bedrooms up stairs with fireplace, kitchen and very secure - walled in with entry door.
on the down side for me was the weather and also the available groceries at the markets. I love to paint - oil and it is just too damp there for oil painting. All milk was in a box, and I just could not get the ingredients there that I wanted to use.
So I moved because of the lack of cooking ingredients, the weather was cold and I could not paint. Moved to Lake Chapala area called San Antonio and the weather is wonderful, the oil painting is great and supplies are here for cooking.
Now I am thinking of moving to South America.
Would not advise building there in or anywhere until you rent for about 3-=5 years and know contractors and the government people in the town. Can be very complicated. Only my way of thinking - so take it for what it is worth,,,not much. :eyebrows: best of luck..


----------



## grotton

Bruce in SCLC said:


> HI, Glenn. The apts are in the Delicias neighborhood, on the edge of El Cerrillo and Barrio de Guadalupe. They're a pleasant 15 min. walk from the zócalo, and maybe half that to the Guadalupe walking street. There's a map and email on the facebook page if you'd like more info.
> 
> Yes, SAPAM is the municipal water and drainage system and it's kind of a disaster. People who live near the pumping stations might get water every day, or even constantly, but most neighborhoods only get water 2-3 times a week for several hours. And because you can't even count on that, those who can afford it have cisterns. 5000 L is a good size. There are neighborhoods, like Cuxtitali and Alcanfores, that have separate water systems with their own sets of issues.
> 
> You made me curious about Subarus so I just googled and found that there is in fact a dealership in Tuxtla. I guess as your compañero is tuxtlecto you'll be making frequent trips anyway, so going there for service wouldn't be a big deal, and with a 2010 you shouldn't have too many issues. Might be worth calling them to find out if they stock parts for your model. VW, Nissan and the (formerly) big 3 are the most common here. Honda and Toyota are starting to get a foothold and you see some Seats and Fiats.
> 
> -Bruce


Good to know about the Subaru dealership in Tuxtla as I really like this car.

I asked my partner about how the water service works and he set me straight that its not like the states where it flows constantly and he explained that why all the houses have cisterns on the roof. 

I will send you an email through your facebook page for information on renting one of your units. The location looks great and they are very attractive.


----------



## Queretaro

Hi Grutton,
I was actually a Peace Corps volunteer stationed in San Cristóbal - now in central Mexico. Just to give you my experience. I lived there with my wife - girlfriend at the time - for 2 years and lived pretty well on a pay check of about $1,000 US a month. But don't worry, that was not living like a typical PCV, they actually called Peace Corps Mexico the Posh corps for a while... they have taken the monthly living allowance way down since I was in it. 
For that amount, we rented a nice furnished 2 bedroom apartment 1 block from the zocalo, had enough to eat and spend the weekends exploring the area around San Cristóbal. If you plan regular trips to the U.S. you would need a bit more, and remember that in the PC my medical insurance was taken care of.

I hope this helps. San Cris is a great place to live. Suerte!


----------



## safarisister

Hi Glen, I am a US expat artist living in San Cristobal for a year now, living in Mexico going on 5 years in August. My partner is Mexican. It's great that your partner is Mexican as you will as a couple be able to integrate easily with both the Chiapanecos y expat community here.

This is a great place for relaxing, lots of nature, centrally located so you can take off for some more heat and ocean say in Boca de Cielo which is about 3 hour drive from SC.

The weather is great here much dryer compared to Seattle :> hot in the sun during the day and cool in the night so you can cozy up :>

Land is extremely inexpensive if you approach contacts through your Mexican side of your family....if you are a lone ****** with no contacts then well mmmh that could be a problem. You're fine. Don't stress about the money part, take your time and explore the area, make friends, practice your Spanish. All will be well...things move really slow here.

I live on in the centro but a indigenous Chamula colonia and i have Dish - a package through Telcel: phone, cable TV and 5MB internet for 1400mxn..about $100 amonth. This is my single largest expense. My mexican house smallish, simple but is fine is $92 a month. It's a 8 minute drive to the centro, or a 30 minute walk.

Living here and visiting here in financial terms is very different. SC exists on those tourist dollars. It's a special remote place so the experience comes at a premium but living here your expenses will come way down...unless you're buying an iPad. Which now you buy and have delivered as Apple and Dell and many technology companies are here in mexico and with the same products and shipping policies. My partner is from Mexico DF and we have a house there so when i need supplies for my business (jewelry & UI design) then i go shopping in DF where materials, technology, business cards...are 50% less...but now that i'm here 5 years i am starting to think in pesos and not dollars :>

What to do here -- it's pretty quiet. Yes there are alot of volunteering opportunities, i will start shortly with a school home that is new here housing 600 homeless kids. I don't know all the details yet. Anyhow, there's lots of expats that are volunteering, have there own businesses, or are artists, retired. 

I have a FM3 and i came down in 2007 with a 2007 car and trailer with all my stuff and 3 dogs.. If i had to do it all over again i would not bring a new car into Mexico again. Everything you have in the US you can get here...i say leaving all of the stuff minus your office or persona items behind and waiting until you are in a place here is less stress and less expensive in the long run and it's better not to stand out like a golden thumb if you know what i mean. The police like to pull me over alll the time...new car, gringa with california license plates - my mexican family is always with me so then a switch occurs in there face and there's no problem.

PS with my FM3 i have my social security card here but there are also some very good insurance plans here. i have a list somewhere that i got from my mexican side of the family that actually used it...although i don't use it myself. I also have good local contacts for doctors, hospitals and dentists all which i pay out of pocket = equal to a co-pay. It's incredibly cheap here with all levels of health care. It kills me to think of the 7 years i work for Sony PlayStation in CA where i calculated between me and company we paid $70,000 for medical insurance that i only used 2 times for the flu in which case i could never get into see a doctor fast enough. Another thing not to worry about.

Jacky in Chiapas


----------



## borisyjessi

conklinwh said:


> This isn't the place to debate SMA but for every ****** sunbird with a mansion there are at least two and maybe a 100 artists that live very frugally on the economy. In fact there is quite a push back by the very liberal expat community that is very upset that SMA had been an artist community dedicated to helping Mexico through non-profits for 50 years and it was being invaded by a small but ostentations group that fly in for vacations and weekends and do nothing for the town.
> However, what is really happening is that tourism has shifted from heavily ****** to heavily Mexican, most from D.F., and that has it's own dynamic.


This is profoundly true! There are non-profits for all walks of life in SMA.


----------



## grotton

safarisister said:


> Hi Glen, I am a US expat artist living in San Cristobal for a year now, living in Mexico going on 5 years in August. My partner is Mexican. It's great that your partner is Mexican as you will as a couple be able to integrate easily with both the Chiapanecos y expat community here.
> 
> This is a great place for relaxing, lots of nature, centrally located so you can take off for some more heat and ocean say in Boca de Cielo which is about 3 hour drive from SC.
> 
> The weather is great here much dryer compared to Seattle :> hot in the sun during the day and cool in the night so you can cozy up :>
> 
> Land is extremely inexpensive if you approach contacts through your Mexican side of your family....if you are a lone ****** with no contacts then well mmmh that could be a problem. You're fine. Don't stress about the money part, take your time and explore the area, make friends, practice your Spanish. All will be well...things move really slow here.
> 
> I live on in the centro but a indigenous Chamula colonia and i have Dish - a package through Telcel: phone, cable TV and 5MB internet for 1400mxn..about $100 amonth. This is my single largest expense. My mexican house smallish, simple but is fine is $92 a month. It's a 8 minute drive to the centro, or a 30 minute walk.
> 
> Living here and visiting here in financial terms is very different. SC exists on those tourist dollars. It's a special remote place so the experience comes at a premium but living here your expenses will come way down...unless you're buying an iPad. Which now you buy and have delivered as Apple and Dell and many technology companies are here in mexico and with the same products and shipping policies. My partner is from Mexico DF and we have a house there so when i need supplies for my business (jewelry & UI design) then i go shopping in DF where materials, technology, business cards...are 50% less...but now that i'm here 5 years i am starting to think in pesos and not dollars :>
> 
> What to do here -- it's pretty quiet. Yes there are alot of volunteering opportunities, i will start shortly with a school home that is new here housing 600 homeless kids. I don't know all the details yet. Anyhow, there's lots of expats that are volunteering, have there own businesses, or are artists, retired.
> 
> I have a FM3 and i came down in 2007 with a 2007 car and trailer with all my stuff and 3 dogs.. If i had to do it all over again i would not bring a new car into Mexico again. Everything you have in the US you can get here...i say leaving all of the stuff minus your office or persona items behind and waiting until you are in a place here is less stress and less expensive in the long run and it's better not to stand out like a golden thumb if you know what i mean. The police like to pull me over alll the time...new car, gringa with california license plates - my mexican family is always with me so then a switch occurs in there face and there's no problem.
> 
> PS with my FM3 i have my social security card here but there are also some very good insurance plans here. i have a list somewhere that i got from my mexican side of the family that actually used it...although i don't use it myself. I also have good local contacts for doctors, hospitals and dentists all which i pay out of pocket = equal to a co-pay. It's incredibly cheap here with all levels of health care. It kills me to think of the 7 years i work for Sony PlayStation in CA where i calculated between me and company we paid $70,000 for medical insurance that i only used 2 times for the flu in which case i could never get into see a doctor fast enough. Another thing not to worry about.
> 
> Jacky in Chiapas


Thanks for the great information Jacky. My partner's family is originally from Tuxtla but he and his friends took vacations in San Cristobal to get away from the heat. We will have to look again at real estate as our first experience was very limited and the realtor only showed us very expensive colonials in the center of town. We since met with a family friend who showed us pictures of her recently purchased home that was gorgeous, modern and inexpensive. I still prefer the idea of buying land and building something. My partners father worked for years for the government in Tuxtla so hopefully he can help us negotiate the bureaucracy.


----------



## borisyjessi

We loved Chiapas and especially San Cristobal when we visited. It was our favorite stop out of 14 states. We too hope to move to San Cristobal some day. Amusingly we live in San Miguel (hee hee) which we chose for our catering business. But Chiapas and especially San Cristobal remains close in our hearts.

The first thing that we do when we visit a town in head straight for the local market (tiangis). This is one of the best ways to gauge the economy and the prices of items in the town. Not to mention the best place to find good food. I remember buying tomatoes for 1 peso per each. Cost of living really depends on how you live. Shopping at the markets instead of a grocery store will really cut costs. Having your Mexican partner rent a property will also cut costs. I would budget around $300 US per month for rent. Unless you want a mansion, which from your posts I understand you do not, you really should not need to pay much more than that. Things that are expensive in Mexico are technology, imports, cars... I would sell your car and buy something older. As of December this year you can import a 2005 vehicle. This way you can quickly legalize your vehicle and not have to deal with the hassle of updating your stickers every 180 days. Keep things like computers, cameras, printers... it is cheaper to buy those in the states. Cell phones are super expensive here. We brought our Blackberry Torches with us and had them opened here...but we have not even used them. We bought a phone from Telcel for $100 pesos and use that and the house phone. Adjusting what you buy will bring costs down as well. 

Some people have mentioned that trying to find items to cook with are difficult and expensive...I say it depends on what you are cooking. Trying to make Italian or French cuisine every night will cost you. It is difficult to find some ingredients that are not regularly used in Mexican cuisine. Name brand pasta is expensive, the cost of Polenta is exorbitant! But I buy tons of Mexican fruits and veggies every week for less than $15 US and we pig out on fresh produce all week long. When you plan out your shopping and avoid the grocery stores you continue to save. One of the things I love most about Mexico is all the little shops for your groceries. Buying meat from the butcher, tortillas from the Tortillaria, bread from the bakery... sometimes you walk more to buy each of your items but isn't that even part of being more healthy? We dine like Kings every day and for a 3rd the cost of what we paid for basic ingredients in the US. We are happier and healthier, more active and we have dropped 30lbs since moving to Mexico 6 months ago.

Best wishes to you both for your new life in Mexico. Bienvenidos!


----------



## stilltraveling

*Health Insurance*



grotton said:


> Health insurance. Can we buy the Mexican social security in Tuxtla and how much does it cost?


You'll have to buy private insurance. Mine is from a company called Axa. You wouldn't want the Social Security insurance anyway. "Spartan" is the best way to describe their hospitals and standard outpatient care takes forever (we can put you down for next December). 

You're much better off with the private insurance for "gastos medicos mayores" (major medical costs) and just paying out of pocket for your primary care. Medications are very inexpensive and an office visit to a specialist in San Cristobal will only run around $30 USD.


----------



## Heyduke

I have lived in San Cristobal for 5 years and anyone who says that land is cheap and the weather is great must be living in another San Cristobal.


----------



## stilltraveling

Heyduke said:


> I have lived in San Cristobal for 5 years and anyone who says that land is cheap and the weather is great must be living in another San Cristobal.


The whether is great . . . . at least a couple weeks per year! Sweltering hot to blistering cold, San Cristobal has something for everyone!!


----------



## beachbaby

My husband and I lived in San Cris for 2 years and recently moved to the sunny beach, Puerto Escondido in Oaxaca. Being from California, we got a bit tired of always feeling a little bit chilly and really missed having a few balmy summer nights. But, since you are living in Seattle - I think you would love that San Cris probably has more sunshine and is milder (no extreme cold or snow). Tuxtla's weather is VERY different from San Cris - mostly hot to hotter all the time and would be a very drastic weather change from what you are used to (kind of like moving from Seattle to the Nevada desert but with more humidity).

Before you consider buying anywhere, I recommend that you rent for at least one year to get a good idea of the area and surrounding areas (plus infrastructure issues). 

San Cris is a wonderful place to live. I loved the Colonial city and the diversity of people and cultures. It is truly an international travelers hub, with a plenty of ex-pats that are interested in art, culture, social issues, and generally - just enjoying a much slower pace of life.

My husband and I lived in a great part of town near the central park and walking streets (andadors) in a 2 bedroom/2 bath unfurnished home, paid for parking our car in a separate secure parking area, ate out at least 5 times a week, and didn't feel like we were scrimping on $16,000 pesos a month (about $1200 USD a month). So you will be able to either put money in the bank, or live like kings in San Cris on $36k a year. 

We brought our van from California - and when we were on the 180 day tourist visa, we would just go to Guatemala for 3 days to renew it - an easy 3 1/2 hour drive from San Cris. We have since gotten our FM3 (temporary resident) visas that are renewed annually and no longer require a trip to the border with our car. 

I am not familiar with Mexican Social Security - but if you are referring to the Mexican health insurance, you need to have an FM3 to apply for it. We haven't so far applied, but will in the future. It has a 3 year phase in process: the 1st year it covers very little, 2nd year more and by the 3rd year it pretty much covers everything. Costs seem to be about $300 per year. Since we are both healthy, we have only paid for medical care as needed - and so far that has only been dental care needed. My husband has had 2 tooth infections, 3 root canals and 3 caps - (I know, bad teeth) - and total dental for him has been about $600; much less than the deductible would have been for the same work under our dental plan in the states.

Come down. Relax. Don't plan on doing anything but learning about Chiapas and Mexico. You will find your place and interests from there. P.S. There are plenty of do-gooder gringos in San Cris that you are likely to find a group you enjoy. 

If you decide to build, we have had a couple of friends do it in San Cris. It seems to take about 1 1/2-2 years from land purchase to move in (some times longer, but with a Mexican partner it may take less time/less complications). Land typically runs about $20-50k US, and the home building about $60-80k US - depending on how small/large/fancy etc. But once build, your place will be worth about double what it cost. Prices have been doubling about 4-6 years - so we've been told. I think in the last 2 years it has slowed tremendously. You can buy a modern, near new 3 bedroom 2 1/2 bath home in the best part of town (close to everything) for $200-300k US. If you want to go simple (Mexican-style) - you can probably do it for about $80-100k US.


----------



## surfrider

beachbaby said:


> My husband and I lived in San Cris for 2 years and recently moved to the sunny beach, Puerto Escondido in Oaxaca. Being from California, we got a bit tired of always feeling a little bit chilly and really missed having a few balmy summer nights. But, since you are living in Seattle - I think you would love that San Cris probably has more sunshine and is milder (no extreme cold or snow). Tuxtla's weather is VERY different from San Cris - mostly hot to hotter all the time and would be a very drastic weather change from what you are used to (kind of like moving from Seattle to the Nevada desert but with more humidity).
> 
> Before you consider buying anywhere, I recommend that you rent for at least one year to get a good idea of the area and surrounding areas (plus infrastructure issues).
> 
> San Cris is a wonderful place to live. I loved the Colonial city and the diversity of people and cultures. It is truly an international travelers hub, with a plenty of ex-pats that are interested in art, culture, social issues, and generally - just enjoying a much slower pace of life.
> 
> My husband and I lived in a great part of town near the central park and walking streets (andadors) in a 2 bedroom/2 bath unfurnished home, paid for parking our car in a separate secure parking area, ate out at least 5 times a week, and didn't feel like we were scrimping on $16,000 pesos a month (about $1200 USD a month). So you will be able to either put money in the bank, or live like kings in San Cris on $36k a year.
> 
> We brought our van from California - and when we were on the 180 day tourist visa, we would just go to Guatemala for 3 days to renew it - an easy 3 1/2 hour drive from San Cris. We have since gotten our FM3 (temporary resident) visas that are renewed annually and no longer require a trip to the border with our car.
> 
> I am not familiar with Mexican Social Security - but if you are referring to the Mexican health insurance, you need to have an FM3 to apply for it. We haven't so far applied, but will in the future. It has a 3 year phase in process: the 1st year it covers very little, 2nd year more and by the 3rd year it pretty much covers everything. Costs seem to be about $300 per year. Since we are both healthy, we have only paid for medical care as needed - and so far that has only been dental care needed. My husband has had 2 tooth infections, 3 root canals and 3 caps - (I know, bad teeth) - and total dental for him has been about $600; much less than the deductible would have been for the same work under our dental plan in the states.
> 
> Come down. Relax. Don't plan on doing anything but learning about Chiapas and Mexico. You will find your place and interests from there. P.S. There are plenty of do-gooder gringos in San Cris that you are likely to find a group you enjoy.
> 
> If you decide to build, we have had a couple of friends do it in San Cris. It seems to take about 1 1/2-2 years from land purchase to move in (some times longer, but with a Mexican partner it may take less time/less complications). Land typically runs about $20-50k US, and the home building about $60-80k US - depending on how small/large/fancy etc. But once build, your place will be worth about double what it cost. Prices have been doubling about 4-6 years - so we've been told. I think in the last 2 years it has slowed tremendously. You can buy a modern, near new 3 bedroom 2 1/2 bath home in the best part of town (close to everything) for $200-300k US. If you want to go simple (Mexican-style) - you can probably do it for about $80-100k US.


Hi - I also lived in San Cris but chose to go to Lake Chapala area for the temp. I also found San Cris to be to damp, fun place - great eating out and night life but too busy for me. My question is how do you find the weather and cost of living in , Puerto Escondido in Oaxaca? 
I also am from Cal. around Dana Point area but I really do not like humidity. The Lake Chapala area is great but I think rather expensive compared to San Cris. But we do enjoy the life style and our home here. But growing up and surfing every day of my youth I miss the ocean greatly. So we have been looking at different areas at beach cities. 
I would really like your input on the Puerto Escondido area. surfrider


----------



## beachbaby

surfrider said:


> Hi - I also lived in San Cris but chose to go to Lake Chapala area for the temp. I also found San Cris to be to damp, fun place - great eating out and night life but too busy for me. My question is how do you find the weather and cost of living in , Puerto Escondido in Oaxaca?
> I also am from Cal. around Dana Point area but I really do not like humidity. The Lake Chapala area is great but I think rather expensive compared to San Cris. But we do enjoy the life style and our home here. But growing up and surfing every day of my youth I miss the ocean greatly. So we have been looking at different areas at beach cities.
> I would really like your input on the Puerto Escondido area. surfrider



I have never lived at the beach before 4 months ago when moving to Puerto Escondido. I'm from Northern California - and the beaches there are cold, damp, windy and treacherous. 

Here, there is one AWESOME swimming and beginning surf beach: Playa Carrazalillio. Of course, the Mexican Pipeline is Playa Zicatela with two main surf areas: La Punta with a consistent break off the point; and Zicatela - breaks from the middle going right and left - many tubes. [Maybe you already realized - I really don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to surf-lingo - but I think I am using "break" correctly from what I've overheard.] 

If you love the water and surfing - Puerto Escondido is probably one of the best and affordable places to be. I have discovered that I prefer mountains, lakes and rivers - but I'm giving the beach a try for a year (less if we can get someone to take over our lease through 2/2013). If you think you may be interested - let me know. 

Cost of living: overall, the cost of living is the same as San Cris. We are currently renting a modern, spacious, 3 bedroom/2 1/2 bath with den unfurnished home that is two stories with a roof top palapa to catch views and breezes - and the best hammock time. We rent the house for $7000 pesos a month from a wonderful Mexican landlord. Our power/internet was only out for about 12 hours after Hurricane Carlotta versus other areas of town were out for up to 2 weeks. 

The weather: more humid than San Cris, but always warm. (San Cris - always cold; here always warm). Now, nights are in the low-mid 70's f and days are mid 80's to mid 90's; the shade is almost always 85f. The balmy evenings are great, but now we find we would like some cooler evenings too and are thinking of our next move to Oaxaca City (San Cris too cold, Puerto too hot, maybe OC - just right for us?).

Dislikes for me about Puerto Escondido: I'm not a surfer and at 51 yrs I don't really want to be whacked by the waves, so this is not a great fit for me. I find it boring. Puerto Escondido area is 9 beaches over about 8 kms long in total making for a long narrow town of about 45,000 population - but no real center or truly vibrant area (I find I like Colonial style living better - where everything is walking distance or comes by your front door). in Puerto Escondido there are lots of very nice businesses with very few customers. This is a beach tourist area waiting to get on the regular tourist map - beyond Semana Santa and Christmas. I think you may find Puerto to be a great place since you love surfing daily. Usually plenty of room on the waves and from what I've heard, very little if any turf fighting (I'm thinking of Point Break movie).


----------



## surfrider

have you thought about lake chapala area? we have a 2 bed/2 bath large home that is walled in and a guest house with one bed/one bath. We are 1.5 blocks from the lake which is the largest lake in Mexico. We rent for 550.00 usd a month and we have an orchard in the back that has every fruit tree you can think of.
However I am 66 years old (do not surf any longer cause I have two knee replacements and the wrist are shot too. Could not even paddle out to the waves now a days. 
This is a little more money than San Cris to live but it is also more ****** than san cris. Everyone states that this is the perfect year your weather but I think that May June and July are very hot and dry. I found that San Cris was way too cold for me. 
Are you moving your furniture around with you? 
We started out in San Cris and then went to Oaxaca City, and then to San Antonio by the lake. If you want pictures of this area let me know. I also am looking for some cool evenings and around 70 degrees. There is a place called Mazamitla up here that has mountain cabins, pine trees and such that I am looking at. I like the closeness to Guadalajara and medical things.


----------



## beachbaby

We hope to not go as far north as you are. We have talked to a few people from that area and it sounds too "******-fied" to us. I don't think we'll get further north than Oaxaca City for living. Of course, we want to go to Mexico City to spend a week or two in the museums. 

If you aren't surfing - for me and my husband, Puerto Escondido is mind numbingly boring. The majority of the gringos here live in their US/Canadian bubble and have no intention of learning anything new or enjoying the rich culture of Mexico. Of course, they think they are living in the "wild West" here - but it is just boring. Our big excitement is when the ****** library opens for 2 hours twice a week, where we can exchange books and get something else to read. We were talking to one guy this morning who said in the 6 years he's lived here, he has read about 90% of the books (there is probably about 5,000-8,000 books).

We have found that we are most comfortable with a truly international community - rather than the ****** communities we've encountered so far. But at least there is a place for everyone in Mexico - it's just a matter of finding it.

Thanks for your offer of pictures - but I don't think we'll get that far north. You're place sounds very nice. We really love Chiapas/San Cris and are seriously thinking of returning to San Cris and the cold - if Oaxaca City isn't what we want.


----------



## conklinwh

I would think Oaxaca City could be a great choice. Terrific colonial city with history well before the Aztecs. The city is larger than San Cristobal but certainly manageable. In addition, would be great to have time to explore the surrounding villages.
I understand your gringofied feeling. We spent most of 4 years in San Miguel and was great. Just too many gringos. We moved about 45min away, also 45 min to Queretaro, to a mining "ghost town".


----------



## surfrider

Went up to Mazamitla - completely different world up there. Mountain log cabins no less. Pine trees, beautiful 
That is the beauty of Mexico - every town seems so unique. In the States - each state is different but here - within the state the towns are so different.
I am not sure that we will settle down anywhere because I like to see and experience the difference within the different towns.


----------



## conklinwh

As George Carlin used to say, probably a function of "stuff". We wanted a place to use as a base as too much "stuff". We wanted to be easy days drive to the border as 4 kids, 6 grandkids and an aging mother scattered across 5 states. We wanted to be centrally located with easy access to a very much improving highway system. We also wanted a small town with a small ****** population but that was easy drive to places for major shopping and restaurants. We also came from NC so we wanted warmer winters and cooler summers.
We think that we found this place as we are almost dead center of Mexico just off hwy 57. Easy days drive to GDL, Zacatecas, Gunajuato, Zihua, DF, Oaxaca, etc. and with a little push San Cristobal. We are also 45min from both San Miguel & Queretaro.


----------



## surfrider

conklinwh said:


> As George Carlin used to say, probably a function of "stuff". We wanted a place to use as a base as too much "stuff". We wanted to be easy days drive to the border as 4 kids, 6 grandkids and an aging mother scattered across 5 states. We wanted to be centrally located with easy access to a very much improving highway system. We also wanted a small town with a small ****** population but that was easy drive to places for major shopping and restaurants. We also came from NC so we wanted warmer winters and cooler summers.
> We think that we found this place as we are almost dead center of Mexico just off hwy 57. Easy days drive to GDL, Zacatecas, Gunajuato, Zihua, DF, Oaxaca, etc. and with a little push San Cristobal. We are also 45min from both San Miguel & Queretaro.


The "stuff" routine is the best I think that Carlin ever did. I love it and never get tired of it.
Now what is the name of this town you found?:confused2:


----------



## conklinwh

The name is Mineral de Pozos which was one of the richest towns in Mexico with electricity, railroad and telephone before 1900 but was then greatly impacted by the 1910 Revolution and then crushed as it was a hotbed of the Cristeros movement in 1926-27 when it lost it's town charter and became part of the municipality of San Luis de la Paz in the state of Guanajuato.
We are at about 7500ft with about 4000 people(including about 40 gringos) inhabiting a town that housed 50-70,000 people and over 300 mines in 1900.


----------



## ptrichmondmike

beachbaby said:


> We really love Chiapas/San Cris and are seriously thinking of returning to San Cris and the cold - if Oaxaca City isn't what we want.


Okay, I'll bite...just how cold does it get in San Cristobal? I'm curious because that town has an undeniable appeal for its beauty, relative isolation and variety of indigenous peoples. 

Now, I like cool weather -- I live in Northern California and have been told by people from elsewhere in the US that coastal California is simply too COLD for them. They mean the summers, not the winters. Whereas I believe our weather is almost perfect -- not quite San Diego, but close. I could never live in a Mexican beach town other than Ensenada because of the heat and humidity. Even the Bajio gets a bit warm for my taste.

But on the other hand, being too cold also can be very unpleasant, especially without central heating. My current first retirement choice is the Patzcuaro region, and some say that's too cold, though it looks fine to me. Can anyone compare it with San Cristobal? I hear there are winter fogs in SC, so it's a cold humidity. How humid is it during the summer?

So many choices, so little time...


----------



## conklinwh

My experience visiting Patzcuaro & San Cristobal is that a lot of similarities in the weather so think that you are close.


----------



## beachbaby

I can't compare San Cris to much of anything.
I grew up in the San Joaquin Valley of California. In the winder we'd get tuley fog that you could see the end of your arm it was so foggy. But is was also close to freezing - so it was bone chilling fog.
I've been in San Francisco in the July with a high of 42f, winds of 20 mph, and fog - and was cold to the bone.
I really do not like humid cold and for me San Cris was never like these two examples.

The part about San Cris always feeling cold for my experience of 2 years (May 2010-March 2012) goes like this:

Coldest months: December through mid-February: Lows can get down to 35f, but usually stay in the low 40's. But as soon as the sun crests the mountains - it warms right up to about mid-60's and occasionally up to the mid-70's.

Rainy months: May through October: but the rainiest are usually June and September. Rainy season in San Cris is often: Low's of mid-50's up low 60's; and highs of mid-70's to low 80's. Nearly always sunshine in the morning. Clouds start to roll in around 1-2pm. Rain for about 20-40 minutes between 5-7 p.m. - then stars by 9 p.m. 

I think the hottest day was about 92f. The coldest day was about 48f. But mostly - quite mild on the cool side.

The reasons I felt like it was always cold was because: 
1. Never leave home for more than 30 minutes with out at least 3 layers to put or remove. I would often say "If you don't like the weather in San Cris, just wait 10 minutes." It does change a few degrees often enough to be putting on/taking off layers to stay comfortable. 
2. Never a balmy (warm - like 70f) evening after the sun goes down. The sun drops and so does the temperature by about 10f within 10 minutes.
3. I don't believe I found any restaurant or pub that had heat inside. So it was cold sitting outside and not much warmer inside.
4. Our house has a fireplace that we used during the coldest of months; didn't need it during rainy season unless we got to the 3rd day in a row of no sunshine (which only happened a handful of times). 
5. Even with the fireplace, we did buy a nice portable gas room heater to keep one room in our house warm and lovely. We used this often during the cold months and rarely the rest of the time. 

But after living in 100f days and 70f balmy nights during the summers in the San Joaquin Valley - I just miss the heat, after living for 2 solid years without that feeling. 

Now I'm at the beach and miss feeling cool/mild. The grass is always greener . . .


----------



## ptrichmondmike

Thanks, beachbaby -- as you indicate, and as Mr. Conklin agrees, San Cristobal is just a bit cooler than Patzcuaro, and definitely within my comfort zone. Another town to add to my "first six months spent traveling around to find a great fit for me" tour. Patzcuaro, Oaxaca, Guanajuato, and now "San Cris." (And no, conklin, I haven't forgotten Mineral de Pozos...I will make the trip and treat you and the missus to lunch or dinner, and I am prepared to be utterly charmed by all the ruins.)

I know what you mean about the tule fog in the Central Valley -- my in-laws lived north of Sacramento and winter visits to them often involved this nasty, bonechilling phenomenon.

Yes, the summers here can be cold -- the last couple of years it's been very hard to grow a decent tomato in the garden. Speaking of which, expats...does Mexico have tastier tomatoes than the bland travesty of the real thing we currently find in U.S. grocery stores? This is important to me -- I love tomatoes!


----------



## conklinwh

Our temperatures not too different.
In winter normally high 40s/low 50s at 7AM and goes into the 70's with almost totally sunny/blue skies. We do have a night or two where can drop to high 30's.
Our hottest month is May and June before the winds turn. Its low 60's at 7AM and highs in the 80's with maybe a dog or two where hits 90. After the "rainy" season starts and the winds turn, it's high 50's at 7AM, a good chance of early fog or clouds and then 70's for a high. The winds start about 4PM and go to about 8PM. Rainy sort of misnomer as we are high desert. We had some early rains this year but only 2-3 inches total and then nothing. Really need a good thunder shower.
We built our house out of adobe so really equalizes temperatures. We have gas logs in 3 rooms. We have a portable fan my wife uses a few days in May.
Key as stated is layers and expect change.
What we don't have is what I found in both Patzcuaro & San Cristobal which is the chills that come from cool/moist air. Both get a lot more moisture than we do.


----------



## Heyduke

OK here is the deal on weather. I live in San Cris so I think I know something if what I say. In Jan and Feb it can frost but usually is in the lo 40's F at night. That is not the problem. The problem is that most houses don't have heat except for a fireplace. We all know that a fireplace will not heat a house. Electric heat is VERY expensive and Gas heat will only heat a small area. There is no such thing as central heat. So when people say they come from a cold place they probably had heat in their house. Here your house stays cold. None of the restaurants are heated. Most of the hotels are not heated. Going out and walking around is not a problem because you dress for it. Its when you go home or someplace you want to set and relax that's cold. I had neighbors from Canada move into a house next to me. When I told them the house was cold they said we are from Canada and are use to cold. Two days later they were complaining about have to dress like they were outside while in the house. Get the point.


----------



## beachbaby

Well said Heyduke!


----------



## conklinwh

I suspect that also the chill from moisture that makes temperatures feel worse.
As I said, we built using adobe and a real help. It holds the heat at night and the cool during the day. We just use our gas heaters and they do a fine job. Does help that we tend to have really low humidity.


----------



## ptrichmondmike

conklinwh said:


> Our temperatures not too different.
> In winter normally high 40s/low 50s at 7AM and goes into the 70's with almost totally sunny/blue skies. We do have a night or two where can drop to high 30's.
> Our hottest month is May and June before the winds turn. Its low 60's at 7AM and highs in the 80's with maybe a dog or two where hits 90. After the "rainy" season starts and the winds turn, it's high 50's at 7AM, a good chance of early fog or clouds and then 70's for a high. The winds start about 4PM and go to about 8PM. Rainy sort of misnomer as we are high desert. We had some early rains this year but only 2-3 inches total and then nothing. Really need a good thunder shower.
> We built our house out of adobe so really equalizes temperatures. We have gas logs in 3 rooms. We have a portable fan my wife uses a few days in May.
> Key as stated is layers and expect change.
> What we don't have is what I found in both Patzcuaro & San Cristobal which is the chills that come from cool/moist air. Both get a lot more moisture than we do.


Sounds wonderful, wh...and since I no longer have any hair to frizz up in the mega-dryness as I did when I lived in Taos, that humiliating contretemps is resolved. But what about cracked lips?

Seriously, I've been reading about the drought in northern and north-central Mexico (a southern extension of the drought in the US), and it makes me ask if I should relocate there and place yet one more small burden on a stressed environment. (I should mention that I'm also looking at Zacatecas.) What is the current water situation in Pozos?


----------



## surfrider

What I noticed about the cold in San Cris was this.
we had a fireplace and we were constantly burning wood. BUT our house was not insulated, the windows were single pain, and the doors and windows had gaps that let the air in. You use 3 wool blankets at night Never leave the house without a coat. I even had gloves and a wool hat on. I lived in Seattle for 14 years and was never as cold as I was in San C. - but we had windows that were doubled, roof and walls were insulated and the doors closed tightly. Made a difference.


----------



## Anonimo

*On Mexican Tomatoes*

In reply to: ".does Mexico have tastier tomatoes than the bland travesty of the real thing we currently find in U.S. grocery stores? This is important to me -- I love tomatoes!"

In our experience (and this is in the Pátzcuaro area), the tomatoes we get are almost all the saladette variety, although globe tomatoes can occasionally be found. They are almost uniformly tasteless. This is very disappointing to us. These tomatoes are fine if roasted and made into salsas, with supporting ingredients such as chiles, cilantro, onion, etc, but IMO will not match a good New Jersey tomato, for example.

For my Italian style pasta sauces, I use only canned tomatoes from Spain or preferably, from Italy.


----------



## beachbaby

In Southern Mexico and Guatemala - I have not found a tomato at the market that is as tasty as a garden grown (or farmer's market) from the States. But, the market tomatoes taste a little better to me than the one's I would get from a commercial store in the States - usually because they are actually ripe/instead of firm and barely red. The most common tomato I see is Roma. Occasionally, there are the round ones but I wasn't impressed. Once I found an heirloom type - pinkish red with ribbed sides. It wasn't as flavorful as I had hoped.


----------



## ptrichmondmike

Very disappointed to hear that tomatoes are just as bad as what we can buy here. Looks like I'll have to grow my own.


----------



## beachbaby

Just to clarify, I said the tomatoes in Mexico were slightly better because they are ripe, but varieties are very limited. Since you are a tomato lover - I would suggest you grown your own varieties that you love.


----------



## Isla Verde

conklinwh said:


> I suspect that also the chill from moisture that makes temperatures feel worse.


I suspect you're right. Humidity makes both hot and cold temperatures more bothersome. That's why I've chosen to live in Mexico City, where it's dry most of hte year.


----------



## Isla Verde

Anonimo said:


> In reply to: ".does Mexico have tastier tomatoes than the bland travesty of the real thing we currently find in U.S. grocery stores? This is important to me -- I love tomatoes!"
> 
> In our experience (and this is in the Pátzcuaro area), the tomatoes we get are almost all the saladette variety, although globe tomatoes can occasionally be found. They are almost uniformly tasteless. This is very disappointing to us. These tomatoes are fine if roasted and made into salsas, with supporting ingredients such as chiles, cilantro, onion, etc, but IMO will not match a good New Jersey tomato, for example.


In Mexico City, I don't find the small oval tomatoes tasteless, but then I'm not a tomato maven like you! I have the idea that most tomatoes bought by Mexicans are turned into salsas, rather then used in salads.


----------



## Heyduke

They are as bad as what you find in the supermarkets in the states. I have almost quit eating them.


----------



## Isla Verde

Heyduke said:


> They are as bad as what you find in the supermarkets in the states. I have almost quit eating them.


I haven´t found that to be true at the places I shop in Mexico City.


----------



## surfrider

I have a big garden - corn and all - but the tomato plants I have not had good luck with. Not one tomato yet. I need to get more infor on the tomato plants that grow here. Also fighting bugs big time. the darn grasshoppers are like four inches long and I have these so called ants that eat trees and anything else in their way. I do love fresh and ripe tomatoes and I will win this war that is ragging in my garden. (I am bigger and smarter than these d-- bugs - so there - I just need to let them know it).


----------



## Heyduke

It's hard to grow tomatoes in SC because of the rain.


----------



## ptrichmondmike

Heyduke said:


> It's hard to grow tomatoes in SC because of the rain.


Thank you for getting the thread back on track -- which is SC, not tomatoes. But thanks to all for the bad news about my beloved red deliciousnesses. I find it hard to believe that you can't grow a great tomato in Mexico -- for goodness sakes, that where they came from in the 16th century! Must you live in the tropics? But if I can't even grow 'em, then I guess it's time to move on...to 100 varieties of chile!

So what DOES grow well in San Cristobal? Or in Patzcuaro, while I'm asking? How many people here keep vegetable gardens, or are you all just flower and tree fanciers?


----------



## Heyduke

You can grow good tomatoes with something to cover them from the rain. If you could see the large gardens out near Chamula of maybe 200 acres with many different crops you will see that many things grow in Chiapas if you know how to do it. They do.....but no tomatoes.


----------



## ptrichmondmike

Heyduke said:


> you will see that many things grow in Chiapas if you know how to do it. They do.....but no tomatoes.


Okay, now I want to know what Chiapas offers, instead of tomatoes.


----------



## edgeee

surfrider said:


> I have a big garden - corn and all - but the tomato plants I have not had good luck with. Not one tomato yet. I need to get more infor on the tomato plants that grow here. Also fighting bugs big time. the darn grasshoppers are like four inches long and I have these so called ants that eat trees and anything else in their way. I do love fresh and ripe tomatoes and I will win this war that is ragging in my garden. (I am bigger and smarter than these d-- bugs - so there - I just need to let them know it).


i can't let a good tomato topic die on the vine.

*The Gardens of Mexico, as expats view it.* thread

is now open for cultivation in La Chatarrería
harvest to follow in the fall(ow).

i suspect one problem is widespread, specifically, in cooler climes.
cool nights typically inhibit fruit set. 

now i'll stroll on over to my garden, if my hammock doesn't grab me first.


----------



## grotton

edgeee said:


> i can't let a good tomato topic die on the vine.
> 
> *The Gardens of Mexico, as expats view it.* thread
> 
> is now open for cultivation in La Chatarrería
> harvest to follow in the fall(ow).
> 
> i suspect one problem is widespread, specifically, in cooler climes.
> cool nights typically inhibit fruit set.
> 
> now i'll stroll on over to my garden, if my hammock doesn't grab me first.


If I were a moderator of this thread I would go through and delete every tomato related post. Still interested in learning about San Cristobal and Chiapas. I know it's chilly. Couldn't care less about tomatoes. Just saying...


----------



## surfrider

Chiapas offers a very unique wonderful town that is vibrant and exciting. The town always has something going on somewhere. The people are honest and warm and it seems like you always meet a friend somewhere in town just walking around. The food is great. It is never dull and the town is always in motion. At least that was my impression when I lived there.


----------



## DennyDaddy

Grotton.....

Just want to let you know that the very best tomatoes in the whole wide world are grown in.....
Ta da....New Jersey!

How are those apples ha ha..

But I think ya right!

DD


----------



## beachbaby

Pretty much everything else (vegetable and fruit wise) except luscious ripe juicy sweet tomatoes and fragrant tender basil. They have a basil - but it isn't the sweet basil that I love. The two food things that are rare to come by and cherished when found.


----------



## edgeee

beachbaby said:


> Pretty much everything else (vegetable and fruit wise) except luscious ripe juicy sweet tomatoes and fragrant tender basil. They have a basil - but it isn't the sweet basil that I love. The two food things that are rare to come by and cherished when found.


grotton is right, this should be in the garden. i tilled the ground, so come put some roots down.

"A starving man does not complain for a lack of oregano. . . or basil." - _unkown_

:focus:
so it seems, the weather actually varies quite a bit within fairly short distances, or is this a false inference on my part?


----------



## beachbaby

edgeee said:


> grotton is right, this should be in the garden. i tilled the ground, so come put some roots down.
> 
> "A starving man does not complain for a lack of oregano. . . or basil." - _unkown_
> 
> :focus:
> so it seems, the weather actually varies quite a bit within fairly short distances, or is this a false inference on my part?



Great observation about the weather varying. It takes about 3 hours to get from the Pacific coast of Chiapas (sea level) to San Cris (about 7500f elev). Between Tuxtla and San Cris it takes about 40 minutes and the elevation changes from about 2000f to 7500f. Lots of variable weather within a short 3 hour drive of San Cris. That is one reason there is such a variety of fruits and vegetables available in San Cris.

But also, within 30 minutes of San Cris (also in the mountains) are Zinacantan and Chamula - both indigenous Mayan communities. They supply a lot of the fresh produce and flowers. I have seen enormous covered growing areas. I'm not sure what they are covered with - but it looks like gigantic white tents. I think the protection from the rain is what allows them to grow so much food.

There are a lot of microclimates in San Cris too. Some areas get fog in the morning that burns off by 9 or 10 am; some parts get clouds first - darker longer; some parts are in the shade of the mountains - so they are cooler, than the southern facing slopes. 

If San Cris is where someone wants to stay for a long time before buying property I recommend renting by the month and try different parts of town. You can get a food feel for the different micro-climates, as well as a feel for the various barrios. 

I lived in Barrio de Guadalupe - just below the Guadalupe Church on the high side of town. We had a lot of sunshine, very little fog, great neighbors, on a major street - so every parade in town came by our front door. 

But if you are planning your own garden - you'll figure out which plants to put where for them to thrive. It seems like a lot of plants/flowers/food thrives in the climate because it is mild.


----------



## Heyduke

Beach Baby is right. My house is on the north side of a Mountain in Cuxtitali. Almost no sun in the winter and very little in the summer. Its always cold. I have seen it 45 in my house in the winter. You want to be on the south side facing the sun. If you want to live in the mountains you can be in the clouds for a big part of the day and it will be very humid.


----------



## grotton

One thing I'm curious about in San Cristobal. It seems to be very affordable to live and rent in the City but the properties I see online for sale are all on average more expensive for western style comforts then what I see in Merida or San Miguel de Allende. What is going on there?


----------



## Heyduke

The cost of living in SC has got more expensive to live here over the last few years and will get more so in the future. It has been discovered so prices go up.


----------



## beachbaby

Plus it is in the southern most state of Mexico - so fewer Mexicans have traveled to the States, lived a while, came back to San Cris to build US style anything. Most of the buildings are Mexican-style, and the oldest are Colonial. There are a few "US-style, but very few.


----------



## Heyduke

Actually the Chamulans near Arcotette are building American frame style houses. Many of the Chanulans have been to the states. Mostly in the south. If you want a American style house they are hard to find. I don't think the Chamulans would rent you one.


----------



## sparks55

:ranger: My husband and I were thinking about moving to Chiapas. Some of our friends here in Springfield, TN have family in Tapachula area. We were there for 15 of the 30 days planned before a medical emergency forced us to leave early.

Chiapas is the one of the poorest states in Mexico. There is almost no tourist industry there, so almost no foreigners. Those that are there usually pull in on a cruise ship for the day and are gone. That said, I would like to say that the people there are very friendly and enjoy practising their English in conversation with us. I have been taking Spanish on Live Mocha.com so I had a chance to practise my basic skills. It is very hot and humid there. If you go up into the mountains it is much cooler there. Our friends own a mango plantation, so we went out into the countryside. The mexicans there remind me of the country people here in TN, open and welcoming. 

The cost of living there is very cheap. You could find a place to live for under $500 a month, but you would have to go to an internet cafe to go online, very few households have internet. You don't need a car if you use the local bus system. If you are looking for things that can't be found in the markets, you can go to the walmart supercenter there. 

My husband and I are still considering Mexico, but we have decided to look into locations farther north with better infrastructure and cooler climate. A good hospital is important to our needs. I hope this helps. Good luck!!!!!!!


----------



## Isla Verde

sparks55 said:


> :ranger: My husband and I were thinking about moving to Chiapas. Some of our friends here in Springfield, TN have family in Tapachula area. We were there for 15 of the 30 days planned before a medical emergency forced us to leave early.
> 
> Chiapas is the one of the poorest states in Mexico. There is almost no tourist industry there, so almost no foreigners. Those that are there usually pull in on a cruise ship for the day and are gone. That said, I would like to say that the people there are very friendly and enjoy practising their English in conversation with us.


The people in Tapacula may be friendly to foreigners, but that is not true in the indigenous villages in the San Cristóbal area, many of whose inhabitants speak Spanish as a second language, if they speak it at all. They tend to be suspicious of outsiders, even of those local people who are not from their own villages.


----------



## beachbaby

And like so many indigenous - they are savvy enough to be kind and welcoming to strangers who want to pay good money for their artisan goods. But they really don't want us for a neighbor.


----------



## Isla Verde

beachbaby said:


> And like so many indigenous - they are savvy enough to be kind and welcoming to strangers who want to pay good money for their artisan goods. But they really don't want us for a neighbor.


That's it. And they don't want us taking pictures of them and their village without permission!


----------



## surfrider

It is against their culture to have their pictures taken, and it is also against their culture to mix outside of their own tribe. Every tribe speaks a different Mayan language and between the tribe's they do not interact and do not understand the language with other Mayan tribes, why would they want to interact with you? Do you know what the so called white man has done to these people?

Now let me ask you a question - Do you want to live right beside them? Do you know where and how they live? Do you know or have you looked into anything about their culture - their history? You are in their country. Do you know what their schools for their children are like? Do you know how they eat and why-how they cook their food? 
If you personally hand stitch and embroiderer a queen size blanket what would you sell it for? Ten dollars, fifty? Not likely. 

I have studied their culture and I think that we are all very blessed that they do not chase us out of their land. We may not be the Spaniards of old but all the foreigners that have come into their land have almost destroyed their entire race. If I were them - I would not let you take my picture either.


----------



## Isla Verde

surfrider said:


> It is against their culture to have their pictures taken,


It's not so black and white. Last year I visited San Cristobal and stayed with an expat friend who has befriended several artisans in a couple of the villages near the city. When I went with her to visit them, they were very happy to have me take pictures of them at work making pottery and weaving.


----------



## Heyduke

Most of my friends are Indigenous people from Chamula, La Hormiga, and Zinacantan and they don't trust other people but if you show that you can be trusted they will be your friend. I go to other Communities to take photos. Chamula, Zinacantan, Aguacatenango, Amantenango, Chenalho, and Acteal. Every photo I take I ask permission and give them a copy. They actually love fotos but on their terms. I have been invited into there homes to eat and drink Pox. They live a simple life and we could learn much from them. People always say how could I help them. They don't need our help for the most part. Good water and schools and medical care are what they need the most but they don't need use telling them how to live.


----------



## surfrider

could not agree more. I have worked to build schools and provide cooking ovens in Mayan communities outside of Chiapas. If they want help they will ask for it and welcome it. A friend of mine is working with Mayans in Guatemala. They are very primitive in the way that they live and the area is very much a jungle. He wanted me to join him but the area is just a little too hot and bug infested for me. Their goal is to market on the internet their goods and ship them when sold. He is part of their tribe now and he takes all the pictures he wants - but he is not using their pictures for his personal usage or gain. You can not take one group of Mayans and say that they are all like that - each tribe is their own nation so to speak


----------



## stilltraveling

sparks55 said:


> There is almost no tourist industry there, so almost no foreigners. Those that are there usually pull in on a cruise ship for the day and are gone.


There is a very cosmopolitan ex-pat community in San Cristobal. There are also a lot of ex-pats scattered across Los Altos, though they tend to keep a very low profile.


----------



## stilltraveling

Heyduke said:


> Most of my friends are Indigenous people from Chamula, La Hormiga, and Zinacantan and they don't trust other people but if you show that you can be trusted they will be your friend.


It also helps to learn a little Tzotzil.


----------



## surfrider

When the spanish came to San Cris they made fortunes from wheat, while the indigenous people lost their lands and suffered disease, taxes and forced labor. San Cris was relatively isolated until the 1970's and then people started to come there and the economy for the Mayans started to change. Up until that time the area around San Cris was known as the belt of misery. there were basically a bunch of makeshift colonies that were impoverished made up of people that had been expelled from Chumula and other communities because of the religious conflict between the church and the indigenous people's beliefs...It has been less than one generation ago that the Mayan's around San Cris were completely impoverished. 
So do you really wonder why they do not want to live right beside you?


----------



## Heyduke

You can't live on Indian land. Even if someone said I could live in their house in Chamula it would not be aloud. All of San Cristobal is built on Chamula land. Tzotzil is a hard language to learn


----------



## stilltraveling

Heyduke said:


> Tzotzil is a hard language to learn


Right up there with Guaraní. But hey, if little kids can learn it ...


----------



## DNP

stilltraveling said:


> Right up there with Guaraní. But hey, if little kids can learn it ...


Hats off to you if you're comfortable with either one of those languages! Did you learn either as a little kid?

Sent from my iPod touch using ExpatForum


----------



## beachbaby

Surfrider and Heyduke both have good experience based on what I see from their posts. One of the biggest mistakes in ****** thinking is that everyone wants to be like us: nice house, car, tv, etc. Other than the widespread adoption of the cell phone and TV among the indigenous - there seems to be very little else they need - except clean water, medical assistance for serious illness or injuries, and to educate their children the way they see fit. 

I am very supportive of the indigenous keeping their cultural identities, their land, their customs, their languages, their dress - and feel very blessed they allow us to learn from them as much as they graciously do.

As far as photos - I once read that the indigenous believed that if someone took their picture their soul was being stolen and put in the camerabox. I think that may have been an old belief from about 100 years ago. Most have gotten beyond that misunderstanding - but they don't want to be photographed as if a paparazzi is following them around. It is rude and insulting. Always ask permission to take a photo.


----------



## TundraGreen

beachbaby said:


> ...
> As far as photos - I once read that the indigenous believed that if someone took their picture their soul was being stolen and put in the camerabox. I think that may have been an old belief from about 100 years ago. Most have gotten beyond that misunderstanding - but they don't want to be photographed as if a paparazzi is following them around. It is rude and insulting. Always ask permission to take a photo.


I know that the Tarahumara (Ráramuri) people in the Copper Canyon region of Sonora and Chihuahua are very reluctant to be photographed, supposedly because concerns that the photo takes something from them. They are generally very timid around foreigners. That may be where the camera-stealing-soul idea originated. This group of indigenous have had the least exposure to foreigners of all the indigenous groups in Mexico. When the Spaniards arrived they retreated into the canyons and the inaccessibility of the region has protected them from outsiders pretty effectively. It has also kept them as one of the poorest groups in Mexico. But all this is a digression from San Cristobal and Chiapas.


----------



## Heyduke

I do think they still believe that to some degree. Even when I have photographed a person many times and try to get a new photo sometimes they will turn away or cover their eyes. Once when doing a video of a bunch of girls they found out they had to move for a video. They were wrestling and trying to cover the eyes of each other while laughing. Another time I asked if I could take a photo and she said yes but closed her eyes real tight. You never know. It has to be on their terms.


----------



## conklinwh

I think that this is an important discussion, not only for Mexico but basically worldwide. We should treat people with dignity and respect, especially for customs that we don't understand. We also need to be cognizant of both history and circumstances.
I find too many people sort of treat indigenous peoples everywhere as if they were visiting a zoo or aquarium.
San Cristobal and I guess most of Chiapas offers one of the best opportunities to see, meet & interact with indigenous peoples. One of the places we really like to stay is Na Balom as it was set up as sort of an oasis for the Lacandan Mayans. At dinner everyone sits at a single large table for a family style meal. Even if you don't stay there, it is a great place to visit and have dinner.


----------



## beachbaby

Absolutely Conklinwh! Well said.


----------



## stilltraveling

DNP said:


> Hats off to you if you're comfortable with either one of those languages! Did you learn either as a little kid?


Despite a childhood of nonstop travel, like most gringos I didn't learn much of anything as a child other than some basic Japanese and how to swear in German. I've spent my adult life trying to make up for that missed opportunity. 

Guaraní is on my bucket list. I spent enough time in Paraguay to determine that I would probably go mad learning it. It is fiendishly complex but, like I said, if little kids can learn it I have no excuse. 

I only know a smattering of Tzótzil. It is rather difficult and the fact that it's different in each community doesn't help, but I'll just keep plugging away at it until it sticks. 

I make a point of learning 4 basic words every time I work in a new community: hello, thank-you, you're welcome and goodbye. I also try to learn how to toast in that language, but I didn't have any drinking opportunities in the Altos.


----------



## stilltraveling

beachbaby said:


> As far as photos - I once read that the indigenous believed that if someone took their picture their soul was being stolen and put in the camerabox.


I think that's more in line with the aborigines in Australia and Papua New Guinea (or at least it was).


----------



## surfrider

My whole soul agrees with you. Thank you for your input. And Na Bloom is wonderful.


----------

