# Will scrub toilets para comer!



## sistersibling (Jul 3, 2013)

Hello everyone! 

I've been lurking the forums for a while now (months, actually). I've learned so many valuable things and seriously feel that I could work as an immigration lawyer at this point, haha. I know all about the legal hoops, and visa requirements, etc and am currently in the visa process so I'm not really looking for logistical advice on what papers I need to move.

My question is for those of you already on the ground as non-EU expats in Spain, specifically Madrid. I've gone and gotten my heart set pretty hard on moving to Madrid, and I would literally take any job to be able to keep a roof over my head, but my understanding is that most Spaniards are pretty much in the same boat. So, in that case, is it completely unrealistic for me to move to Madrid right now and find SOME kind of work, any work really, to keep me afloat? Private English tutoring, babysitting, nannying, sweeping bar floors, window washing, dog poop scooper, I'm literally above none of these things. But is it realistic?

Please don't come down on me too hard! I know _la crisis_ is in full swing and I do not want to pluck a job away from a Spanish citizen just so I can have a 2 year holiday, but I have to wonder if it's possible for me to make this dream a reality. My main reasons for moving are to learn Spanish, soak up the culture, and travel. I've done some non-profit work and am a musician as well, so I'm hoping to integrate these skills during my time there. Just need a reality check. I know it's bad, but I'm wondering HOW bad for expats exactly? Some of my Spanish friends are saying I'll have no problem finding a job of some kind teaching English, others are more skeptical. Expats, help! :noidea:


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

sistersibling said:


> So, in that case, is it completely unrealistic for me to move to Madrid right now and find SOME kind of work, any work really, to keep me afloat?


Yes.


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## sistersibling (Jul 3, 2013)

Well. That sucks.


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

sistersibling said:


> Well. That sucks.


Indeed.

But your bigger problem is how you intend to stay in Spain legally beyond 90 days if you intend to work to support yourself by working. Assuming of course you don't have any legal right to reside in Spain being a US Citizen.


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Unless you are independently wealthy or can get a job with a US firm who will send you to Madrid, this is your best bet at being legal in Spain: 
Consejerias Exteriores : Cultural Ambassadors: North American Language and Culture Assistants in Spain


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## sistersibling (Jul 3, 2013)

I've acquired a two year visa through my immigration lawyer and a lucky connect at the consulate in Houston, so I'm not really concerned about that. Honestly, I just want to know if it's possible for me to be able to make enough to live while I'm on the ground. I already have a friend who owns a property near the restaurant at la plaza de chamberi who has offered to rent to me on the cheap since she hasn't had a tenant in a long while. I even have about $8k saved up to help float me for a while. I am really serious about going, I just want to be realistic about it. I don't have any illusions of grandeur about having an eat, pray, love moment or anything. I just want to be able to live a simple life in Madrid until I'm ready to move on to the next place my heart tells me to go. 

Obviously, I want to stay as long as possible. I'll still go even if the verdict on this board is a resounding "no, you'll never make it" simply because I've done so much leg work already to get there. I suppose I'll just live on what I have saved and then come home and do it all over again.


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## grandamary31 (Oct 23, 2012)

Assume it's a given that everyone will tell you not to come. But I personally think you should do what your heart tells you to do. The worst situation is that you spend all your money, and have loads of new experiences and then go back. 
I have changed my life completely many times, simply for the desire for new experiences.And while going through rocky patches, sometimes on the other side was something unexpected, and fresh. 
I came to Spain, in a similar way, and have found my permanent life. And by the way, am a musician, and that is how I support myself here. So....just to give a voice to the other side.
Go for it and see what happens....


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## sistersibling (Jul 3, 2013)

Thank you. As a musician, how are you fairing? Are you orchestral or a songwriter? I actually was able to get my visa because of my music having already traveled as a musician with an album and plenty of press releases to back me up. It was really just lucky that I got the visa at all. But I would like to be able to play shows once I arrive. Any words of wisdom there?


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## grandamary31 (Oct 23, 2012)

No real words of wisdom. But..I am a jazz pianist/composer and had toured here a few times before. I started just trying to meet as many musicians as I could, go to jams, network, etc
Things didn't fall into place for about a year, but I had enough savings to keep me going. Since then I have been able to make a living with a combination of concerts,clubs, private functions, and with a variety of groups. It helps to be versatile. I think a singer/songwriter doing only original material might have a problem. I am lucky that jazz has an international audience.
I also found that artists in general are more respected here than in the States, and while, I 
was making more money there, my level of satisfaction was higher here.
It's good you're thinking of Madrid as opposed to other smaller cities.


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

sistersibling said:


> I've acquired a two year visa through my immigration lawyer and a lucky connect at the consulate in Houston, so I'm not really concerned about that. Honestly, I just want to know if it's possible for me to be able to make enough to live while I'm on the ground. I already have a friend who owns a property near the restaurant at la plaza de chamberi who has offered to rent to me on the cheap since she hasn't had a tenant in a long while. I even have about $8k saved up to help float me for a while. I am really serious about going, I just want to be realistic about it. I don't have any illusions of grandeur about having an eat, pray, love moment or anything. I just want to be able to live a simple life in Madrid until I'm ready to move on to the next place my heart tells me to go.
> 
> Obviously, I want to stay as long as possible. I'll still go even if the verdict on this board is a resounding "no, you'll never make it" simply because I've done so much leg work already to get there. I suppose I'll just live on what I have saved and then come home and do it all over again.




Holy crow. Congrats. Hopefully some of the Madrid folks will come in and talk about the market in Madrid. 

I know some other areas are desparate for English native speakers. However, they're not the popular ones (nor are they Madrid.)


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## sistersibling (Jul 3, 2013)

Hah, yeah, I expected that. I played a couple of shows when I was traveling in Portugal and was compensated with about 60euros and dinner both times. Acceptable in my book! Hell, I've been paid less in Texas. My instrument is piano and while I'm definitely not going to be playing in Jazz ensembles, I would at least like to network with musicians to collaborate, etc.

Madrid was the obvious choice for language, culture and economy. It's hard for me to explain, but Spain has just got a stronghold on me and I don't think I'll get over it until I do it. It's more likely that I'd relocate to another EU location rather than scuttling back to TX if I can't make Madrid work.


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## sistersibling (Jul 3, 2013)

elenetxu said:


> Holy crow. Congrats. Hopefully some of the Madrid folks will come in and talk about the market in Madrid.
> 
> I know some other areas are desparate for English native speakers. However, they're not the popular ones (nor are they Madrid.)


Thank you. I really do feel lucky. I know how difficult it is to get legal there. So I'm counting my lucky stars, really.

And honestly, even the remote areas desperate for English speakers would be valuable to know about. If I get in a pinch in Madrid and need to get rural to earn some cash, i'll do it to be able to stay in Spain.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

sistersibling said:


> I've acquired a two year visa through my immigration lawyer and a lucky connect at the consulate in Houston, so I'm not really concerned about that. Honestly, I just want to know if it's possible for me to be able to make enough to live while I'm on the ground. I already have a friend who owns a property near the restaurant at la plaza de chamberi who has offered to rent to me on the cheap since she hasn't had a tenant in a long while. I even have about $8k saved up to help float me for a while. I am really serious about going, I just want to be realistic about it. I don't have any illusions of grandeur about having an eat, pray, love moment or anything. I just want to be able to live a simple life in Madrid until I'm ready to move on to the next place my heart tells me to go.
> 
> Obviously, I want to stay as long as possible. I'll still go even if the verdict on this board is a resounding "no, you'll never make it" simply because I've done so much leg work already to get there. I suppose I'll just live on what I have saved and then come home and do it all over again.


Does your visa allow you to work as well? If so then I think you can find certain types of work using your native English. I'm not an English teacher so I don't know the market that well, but there does always seem to be work around, even if it doesn't pay that well. Primary schools seem to be constantly recruiting, as are language academies. 

This site has some useful information:

Employment - Madrid

I'd go for it - as long as you are genuinely prepared to live frugally. Most teaching recruitment seems to take place in September, although there are also jobs going in summer camps in July/August. Some academies used to offer yeasr long contracts on low wages provided you did a TEFL with them. That might still be the case. But if you've got some savings and cheap accommodation lined up, that might be enough to keep you going.


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## sistersibling (Jul 3, 2013)

Chopera said:


> Does your visa allow you to work as well? If so then I think you can find certain types of work using your native English. I'm not an English teacher so I don't know the market that well, but there does always seem to be work around, even if it doesn't pay that well. Primary schools seem to be constantly recruiting, as are language academies.
> 
> This site has some useful information:
> 
> ...


Thank you. My visa does allow for part time work, similar to a student visa. I think it's something like 20-22 hours which I guess I'd plan to work in some kind of language school setting. I was going to try and supplement that income by private tutoring or babysitting, etc. on the side. I dunno, I just wanted some kind of idea as to what the job market for expats in that line of work was right now.


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

If you're thinking of working in a language academy you need to get a TEFL certificate or you won't get hired (at least not by any academy that's worth anything). CELTA is the one that's most widely accepted around here. You can do an intensive CELTA course in a month and it costs about 1000€. Most hiring gets done in April-June for the next school year. With CELTA/TEFL and applying at the right time of the year I think you have a chance of finding a job. Language academies don't pay well but they pay enough for a single person to get by. 

Just so you know, it is illegal to do private tutoring "on the side" - that is, unless you are autónomo. Plenty of people do it, but it is a risk.


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## Jumar (Mar 14, 2012)

Have you thought about working for someone through Helpx. You would probably get accommodation and food for an amount of time working and your savings will last longer. I did a quick search and there are places in Madrid advertising.

Just a thought.


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

sistersibling;2774833
Please don't come down on me too hard! I know [I said:


> la crisis[/I] is in full swing



It's not a crisis aka recession. It's a full bore depression. Think "Grapes of Wrath".




sistersibling said:


> I even have about $8k saved up to help float me for a while. I am really serious about going, I just want to be realistic about it. I don't have any illusions of grandeur about having an eat, pray, love moment or anything. I just want to be able to live a simple life in Madrid until I'm ready to move on to the next place my heart tells me to go.


So $8K US is about €6K. If you some how manage to stay at €500 a month all in that's 12 months.

Then how do you get home?

What buffer do you have if something happens? It doesn't need to be a major illness. It could be having to replace a broken computer or even replacing clothes damaged in the wash.

Even if your rent was zero food,transport etc will eat up a bunch of that €500. God help you if you don't like eating at home every single day.


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

NickZ said:


> It's not a crisis aka recession. It's a full bore depression. Think "Grapes of Wrath".


Yes, this is definitely true. There are NO "I'll do anything" jobs available. There are 6 million unemployed Spaniards in line ahead of you to take any "I'll do anything" job that might pop up.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

NickZ said:


> It's not a crisis aka recession. It's a full bore depression. Think "Grapes of Wrath".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think the op realises that it's not enough to last a year, which is why they are trying to work out how much they need to supplement that through extra earnings. Personally I think you can get by on €1000/month net, if you've got cheap accommodation lined up (say €200/month). Public transport in Madrid is only €55/month and a mobile phone might cost something similar (depends on the phone). If it were me I'd bite the bullet, accept crap wages, and work with an academy. I imagine it to be a better way of getting to meet people than constantly moving from one business class to another (even though business classes pay more) and many academies have perks like free internet access and Spanish lessons. Also I think learning to teach in front of a classroom gives you more skills than chatting to businessmen.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

kalohi said:


> Yes, this is definitely true. There are NO "I'll do anything" jobs available. There are 6 million unemployed Spaniards in line ahead of you to take any "I'll do anything" job that might pop up.


Yes it really needs to be a job where the op's native English sets them apart. Otherwise they're at the back of a very long queue.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

sistersibling said:


> Hah, yeah, I expected that. I played a couple of shows when I was traveling in Portugal and was compensated with about 60euros and dinner both times. Acceptable in my book! Hell, I've been paid less in Texas. My instrument is piano and while I'm definitely not going to be playing in Jazz ensembles, I would at least like to network with musicians to collaborate, etc.



In the area of Spain that we visit - Nerja, Costa del sol, there are many musicians, bands of all descriptions, ex "famous" musicians, one man bands........ The biggest outlet for them by far are the "open mike" nights, held by various bars. Their fee for playing in these venues is a free drink and the pleasure of playing! In fact, my husband is a guitarist and we go over purely so that he can enjoy playing as a hobby. One or two have actually branched out a bit and do have gigs, but they are few and far between and certainly dont pay enough to make a living.

That said, I dont know what the music scene is like in Madrid, I have a friend who has been a played some large concerts there, but they have been one-offs and part of a tour - Gibraltar apparently is another place that draws musicians??! And in the main, they speak English

Jo xxx


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## webmarcos (Dec 25, 2012)

Talk of "Great Depressions" is a little overblown, even if we accept that a good 10-15% of the population have suffered. You only have to look at the shopping crowds in Madrid to realise that, starving people do not take paseos along the shopping avenues




As for the OP, it may be worth joining the Facebook group "Auxiliares de conversacion en Madrid" - they have thousands of members, many of them American, and they should be able to advise on the likelihood of getting work.


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## grandamary31 (Oct 23, 2012)

I agree that the scary references to the Great Depression are way over blown.
And no one is saying that working as a musician is an easy road, but I am in a community of expat musicians here in Barcelona. We all make a comfortable living, without having to go out and play for free. 
The bottom line is everyone can weave their own truth based on their own experience, but
it's not a universal truth.


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

grandamary31 said:


> I agree that the scary references to the Great Depression are way over blown.
> .


Is it? The fall in Spanish GDP is

Spain GDP per capita | Actual Value | Historical Data | Forecast

2008 per capita 27136

2013 per capita 25250

Wages

Spain Wage Index | Actual Value | Historical Data | Forecast

Number of people with a job

Spain Employed Persons | Actual Value | Historical Data | Forecast

That's a depression.

Remember the Great Depression was a worse then average depression. The drop in Spanish employment (Just the drop not including the unemployed prior to the start) is more then the peak US unemployment rate during the Great Depression.


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## sistersibling (Jul 3, 2013)

Thank you guys for all of the feedback. It's good to stay grounded when thinking about making such a big life change.

In my research I've learned that although the Dystopian-Steinbeckian-future of Spain is hanging in the balance, there are pockets that are stronger economically than other regions. That is why I selected Madrid as my ideal home base. While I am aware that under the table tutoring jobs are illegal, and that there are millions of Spaniards lined up for work ahead of me, I still have to wonder how expats are making a living there now. If it's as bad as some of you are saying, how are you able to stay/live? Have you spouses with well paid jobs, are you independently wealthy? Not being ornery, I'm honestly curious.

Not that it would really make a difference for anyone to know this, but I have been in some pretty tight spots financially before and was homeless for 9 months a couple of years ago, so I've learned how to scrape by on very little. I don't think it's unrealistic of me at all to believe that I could live on 1000 euros or less/m if my greatest expense is rent. But then again, that's why I posted here in the first place.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

sistersibling said:


> Thank you guys for all of the feedback. It's good to stay grounded when thinking about making such a big life change.
> 
> In my research I've learned that although the Dystopian-Steinbeckian-future of Spain is hanging in the balance, there are pockets that are stronger economically than other regions. That is why I selected Madrid as my ideal home base. While I am aware that under the table tutoring jobs are illegal, and that there are millions of Spaniards lined up for work ahead of me, I still have to wonder how expats are making a living there now. If it's as bad as some of you are saying, how are you able to stay/live? Have you spouses with well paid jobs, are you independently wealthy? Not being ornery, I'm honestly curious.
> 
> .



Most are retired and/or in receipt of pensions, many work abroad and commute, some were lucky enough to arrive in Spain before the recession, started businesses and are now riding it out, some have "high profile employment and are able to work in Spain as their fields are unique, some are simply desperate. For us, my husband worked in the UK and commuted while we lived in Spain - in the end, it wasnt cost effective, so we came back to the UK, luckily we still had our property here.


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## sistersibling (Jul 3, 2013)

​


jojo said:


> Most are retired and/or in receipt of pensions, many work abroad and commute, some were lucky enough to arrive in Spain before the recession, started businesses and are now riding it out, some have "high profile employment and are able to work in Spain as their fields are unique, some are simply desperate. For us, my husband worked in the UK and commuted while we lived in Spain - in the end, it wasnt cost effective, so we came back to the UK, luckily we still had our property here.


Ah. Makes sense, now. Does it make any difference at all if I mention that I'm a roaming hippy type? I don't have a problem working in exchange for room and board and am a member of WWOOF (also, thanks to the person who posted the link to HelpX). 

I'm probably loco, I know. But I'm willing to give up a "comfortable" life in the states to travel and educate myself globally. Just wasn't sure how possible that was in Spain right now. Like I said, and you've all proven in the thread, some people say it can be done, others say "no way". I guess I'll just have to go and see what happens.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

sistersibling said:


> ​
> Ah. Makes sense, now. Does it make any difference at all if I mention that I'm a roaming hippy type? I don't have a problem working in exchange for room and board and am a member of WWOOF (also, thanks to the person who posted the link to HelpX).
> 
> I'm probably loco, I know. But I'm willing to give up a "comfortable" life in the states to travel and educate myself globally. Just wasn't sure how possible that was in Spain right now. Like I said, and you've all proven in the thread, some people say it can be done, others say "no way". I guess I'll just have to go and see what happens.


I'm not sure being a roaming hippy will make a jot of difference. Altho if you're going to seriously look for work, "roaming hippy" conjurers up an unkempt picture, which wont help at job or visa interviews?????

Jo xxx


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## sistersibling (Jul 3, 2013)

jojo said:


> I'm not sure being a roaming hippy will make a jot of difference. Altho if you're going to seriously look for work, "roaming hippy" conjurers up an unkempt picture, which wont help at job or visa interviews?????
> 
> Jo xxx


:rofl:

Luckily I'm skilled in the ways of showering and projecting a lady-like persona in case of emergencies such as these. I guess what I meant was, I'm not trying to move to Madrid and get a cushy little office job or anything. I can be happy on the outskirts of the city pulling weeds in a vegetable garden in exchange for room if need be. I also clean up nicely and can hold my own teaching in a classroom setting. I'm flexible. And free-spirited.


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## oronero (Aug 24, 2012)

Were you thinking of music lessons? 

Perhaps those that are wealthy in Spain would still like to teach their children how to play an instrument, even the piano!


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

What kind of visa did you get that lets you live here for 2 years when you don't have any work lined up? Even EU members can't stay longer than 90 days without proving they have a job/income/means of support. I'm not doubting that you got a visa but I'm just curious. I'm sure there are lots of Americans in your situation who come to this board who would like to know.


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

sistersibling said:


> I still have to wonder how expats are making a living there now. If it's as bad as some of you are saying, how are you able to stay/live? Have you spouses with well paid jobs, are you independently wealthy? Not being ornery, I'm honestly curious.


I guess I'm in the category of having a spouse with a well paid job (he's Spanish). But I also work, in a language academy. I've been doing it for 27 years and I work for a really big academy that's doing well so my job's pretty safe. :fingerscrossed:


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## sistersibling (Jul 3, 2013)

oronero said:


> Were you thinking of music lessons?
> 
> Perhaps those that are wealthy in Spain would still like to teach their children how to play an instrument, even the piano!


I did consider it. If it's viable, I'm all for it! I worked for a few years with a non-profit teaching art and music to school aged children so I'd be ecstatic to find work like that.


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## sistersibling (Jul 3, 2013)

kalohi said:


> What kind of visa did you get that lets you live here for 2 years when you don't have any work lined up? Even EU members can't stay longer than 90 days without proving they have a job/income/means of support. I'm not doubting that you got a visa but I'm just curious. I'm sure there are lots of Americans in your situation who come to this board who would like to know.


I was granted an artist/performer visa (equivalent to a J-1 visa) typically only good for 18 months, but I was given an extension to 24. Honestly, I can't offer any advice. I was hooked up with a friend of a friend who pulled some strings for me through an immigration lawyer and business partner at the consulate here. I wish I had better advice, but I literally knocked on every door and asked everyone I knew to help me make it happen. I was about to give up and just go over on a 90 day visa for an extended vacation as a consolation prize for trying. But I was able to get my foot in the door with my friend who is well connected and, well, here I am.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

sistersibling said:


> I did consider it. If it's viable, I'm all for it! I worked for a few years with a non-profit teaching art and music to school aged children so I'd be ecstatic to find work like that.


You know if you work self employed you'll have to pay autonomo to enable you to have access to healthcare etc. Sadly, that will eat into any money you earn - to the point where if you dont earn anything you have to pay it?!

Jo xxx


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## sistersibling (Jul 3, 2013)

jojo said:


> You know if you work self employed you'll have to pay autonomo to enable you to have access to healthcare etc. Sadly, that will eat into any money you earn - to the point where if you dont earn anything you have to pay it?!
> 
> Jo xxx


I know it's risky, but I've read stories of folks doing this kind of thing "under the table". I don't see why if someone wants to pay cash in exchange for something like that it couldn't be done without involving anyone else. As far as healthcare is concerned, I was under the impression I'd need to be insured on my own and wouldn't being paying into the healthcare anyway. Is that incorrect?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

sistersibling said:


> I know it's risky, but I've read stories of folks doing this kind of thing "under the table". I don't see why if someone wants to pay cash in exchange for something like that it couldn't be done without involving anyone else. As far as healthcare is concerned, I was under the impression I'd need to be insured on my own and wouldn't being paying into the healthcare anyway. Is that incorrect?


It would be cheaper and more advisable to pay autonomo. The Spanish government/authorities are coming down hard on those who try to work "under the table" and as an immigrant, you would be fined heavily (they need the money) and sent straight back to your own country. So no, I absolutely dont recommend it at all!!!!

Jo xxx


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## oronero (Aug 24, 2012)

There are threads here that say the autonomo for new businesses have a reduced rate for the first few months and then it increases in stages until the full amount later but that might be cheapest option. It might be worth looking for and reading these threads.

Were you thinking of covering your healthcare costs with travel insurance, that maybe one option but I am not sure if that covers you if you are working.


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## sistersibling (Jul 3, 2013)

jojo said:


> It would be cheaper and more advisable to pay autonomo. The Spanish government/authorities are coming down hard on those who try to work "under the table" and as an immigrant, you would be fined heavily (they need the money) and sent straight back to your own country. So no, I absolutely dont recommend it at all!!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


And autonomo isn't more than about 250EU a month, right? Still cheaper than private insurance here, haha. If it's a necessary expense, obviously it's worth factoring. I keep weighing the costs of moving against what I'm paying just to be a brick in the wall here in the states. $750 for rent not including utility bills, $340 car payment $150 insurance plus groceries, Doctors visits uninsured (paid $500 just to have a women's visit :dizzy going out, etc. 

If I have to factor in the extra costs associated with living in Spain, surely it balances out against the fact that there are fewer big expenses. Not to mention the quality of life from a cultural perspective, daily cost of living, etc are worth taking into consideration.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

sistersibling said:


> And autonomo isn't more than about 250EU a month, right? Still cheaper than private insurance here, haha. If it's a necessary expense, obviously it's worth factoring. I keep weighing the costs of moving against what I'm paying just to be a brick in the wall here in the states. $750 for rent not including utility bills, $340 car payment $150 insurance plus groceries, Doctors visits uninsured (paid $500 just to have a women's visit :dizzy going out, etc.
> 
> If I have to factor in the extra costs associated with living in Spain, surely it balances out against the fact that there are fewer big expenses. Not to mention the quality of life from a cultural perspective, daily cost of living, etc are worth taking into consideration.


TBH, those costs arent much different to Spain and you'll still be a brick in the wall. Culturally?? Maybe cos I'm in the UK and I lived on the costa del sol, I didnt notice much difference in culture or quality of life - apart from the fact that in Spain there are few welfare benefits, which mean there are alot of desperate people there at the moment. 


Maybe go for a visit? But whatever you do, dont spend all your savings or burn your bridges

Jo xxx


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## oronero (Aug 24, 2012)

sistersibling said:


> And autonomo isn't more than about 250EU a month, right? Still cheaper than private insurance here, haha. If it's a necessary expense, obviously it's worth factoring. I keep weighing the costs of moving against what I'm paying just to be a brick in the wall here in the states. $750 for rent not including utility bills, $340 car payment $150 insurance plus groceries, Doctors visits uninsured (paid $500 just to have a women's visit :dizzy going out, etc.
> 
> If I have to factor in the extra costs associated with living in Spain, surely it balances out against the fact that there are fewer big expenses. Not to mention the quality of life from a cultural perspective, daily cost of living, etc are worth taking into consideration.


I believe that the Autonomo payments are much less for those who register now, please check on threads as to the exact amount but it is a significant saving.

I have heard that health insurance/costs in the US are horrendous, so I can appreciate what you have stated above.

I am going to be doing a similar thing to you but my chosen location is the western side of the peninsula... I have family there that question what I intend doing but I have budgeted the whole thing out and I will be no worse moving, rather than staying in the UK.

Sometimes people get an itch that has to be scratched, so just like you I am going on an adventure...good luck with yours and enjoy it!


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## sistersibling (Jul 3, 2013)

jojo said:


> TBH, those costs arent much different to Spain and you'll still be a brick in the wall. Culturally?? Maybe cos I'm in the UK and I lived on the costa del sol, I didnt notice much difference in culture or quality of life - apart from the fact that in Spain there are few welfare benefits, which mean there are alot of desperate people there at the moment.
> 
> 
> Maybe go for a visit? But whatever you do, dont spend all your savings or burn your bridges
> ...


Thank you. I guess I'm in a minority here. I'm trying to think about it all from a practical angle, but I'm under no delusions that it will be particularly easy. I'm not moving due to work, or a spouse moving. I'm not hoping to put roots down and buy a house or have a well paid career for life there. I have been proverbially kicked in the teeth repeatedly in just about every part of my life the last two years here in Dallas, so I'm honestly just looking to fulfill a lifelong dream to travel and reconnect with myself a little. A part of me almost wants to do it just to prove to myself that I can. It helps that I have several Spanish friends and dated a Spanish man last year who only fueled my desire to connect more closely with Spanish culture. But maybe I'm being more idealistic than realistic?


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## sistersibling (Jul 3, 2013)

oronero said:


> I believe that the Autonomo payments are much less for those who register now, please check on threads as to the exact amount but it is a significant saving.
> 
> I have heard that health insurance/costs in the US are horrendous, so I can appreciate what you have stated above.
> 
> ...


I was just in Portugal in September! I loved it. Lisbon was really wonderful. I don't know if you've been before, but check out Praia da Ursa near Cabo da Roca in the Natural Park of Sintra-Cascais. It's a bit of a hike to get to, but absolutely worth it. I also have a few friends there if you need any contacts.

And thank you for the encouragement. This is definitely a big itch. lane:


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## oronero (Aug 24, 2012)

sistersibling said:


> I was just in Portugal in September! I loved it. Lisbon was really wonderful. I don't know if you've been before, but check out Praia da Ursa near Cabo da Roca in the Natural Park of Sintra-Cascais. It's a bit of a hike to get to, but absolutely worth it. I also have a few friends there if you need any contacts.
> 
> And thank you for the encouragement. This is definitely a big itch. lane:


Yes I know the area well, most of my family are located 10 km up the coastline from Cabo da Rocha, living in a couple of villages in the Natural Park.


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## sistersibling (Jul 3, 2013)

oronero said:


> Yes I know the area well, most of my family are located 10 km up the coastline from Cabo da Rocha, living in a couple of villages in the Natural Park.


Oh, that's awesome. I really loved that area.


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## sistersibling (Jul 3, 2013)

I guess it's probably a good idea to ask if anyone knows if in the event I just can't make it work in Spain and decide to travel elsewhere, I should be able to do so on the Visa as long as my point of entry into the Schengen zone is through Spain, right?


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## oronero (Aug 24, 2012)

...but you might not be allowed to work. Are you going westwards to buy me an ice cream?


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## sistersibling (Jul 3, 2013)

oronero said:


> ...but you might not be allowed to work. Are you going westwards to buy me an ice cream?


Damn these bureaucratic rules! What do you mean am I going West to buy you an ice cream? I'm heading East!


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## oronero (Aug 24, 2012)

I was trying to get a free ice-cream!


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## sistersibling (Jul 3, 2013)

oronero said:


> I was trying to get a free ice-cream!


NOTHING IN LIFE IS FREE! :nono:


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## brocher (Mar 21, 2011)

Sistersibling.

I don't think you can just pay autonomo without actually running a business - showing income, issuing invoices, paying tax, etc, etc.

Also, just out of curiosity are you sure your visa allows you to do any work outwith performing?


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## sistersibling (Jul 3, 2013)

brocher said:


> Sistersibling.
> 
> I don't think you can just pay autonomo without actually running a business - showing income, issuing invoices, paying tax, etc, etc.
> 
> Also, just out of curiosity are you sure your visa allows you to do any work outwith performing?


Ah, okay, good to know. 

That is my understanding. I cannot work full time, I believe it's just 18-20 hours/week.


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

sistersibling said:


> And autonomo isn't more than about 250EU a month, right? Still cheaper than private insurance here, haha. If it's a necessary expense, obviously it's worth factoring. I keep weighing the costs of moving against what I'm paying just to be a brick in the wall here in the states. $750 for rent not including utility bills, $340 car payment $150 insurance plus groceries, Doctors visits uninsured (paid $500 just to have a women's visit :dizzy going out, etc.
> 
> If I have to factor in the extra costs associated with living in Spain, surely it balances out against the fact that there are fewer big expenses. Not to mention the quality of life from a cultural perspective, daily cost of living, etc are worth taking into consideration.


If current rules are still in effect when you arrive, the first six months (I think) of autonomo are only 50€. 

Your cost of living is going to go way down compared to what we have in the states BUT your wages will too. Keep in mind that the average local working +/- 40 hr/wk earns 1000€.

You sound like you've really got things covered. I'm sure you'll do just fine. To tell you the truth, my husband is a percussionist and it's his music skills that are pulling us through the infamous Spanish economic crisis, not his university degrees!


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## sistersibling (Jul 3, 2013)

elenetxu said:


> If current rules are still in effect when you arrive, the first six months (I think) of autonomo are only 50€.
> 
> Your cost of living is going to go way down compared to what we have in the states BUT your wages will too. Keep in mind that the average local working +/- 40 hr/wk earns 1000€.
> 
> You sound like you've really got things covered. I'm sure you'll do just fine. To tell you the truth, my husband is a percussionist and it's his music skills that are pulling us through the infamous Spanish economic crisis, not his university degrees!


Really? Wow. So what kind of music is he playing? I'm assuming it's more than just a garage band


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

It really is just basically a garage band! It's the connections that come in the music world. It really seems to be a small world up here! Between classes, town bands, and local "party" bands, it all helps.


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## sistersibling (Jul 3, 2013)

elenetxu said:


> It really is just basically a garage band! It's the connections that come in the music world. It really seems to be a small world up here! Between classes, town bands, and local "party" bands, it all helps.


Nice! Good to know! :rockon:


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## kimuyen (Aug 8, 2013)

Sistersibling, 

You sound like a realistic person and have done your homework. Worst case, you find no job and have to rely on your savings to get by, return to the States to start over again (like you said). Your savings may not buy you a year but a few months, enough to give you a reality check and an experience, to help you plan for the next step. Then why not? Where there is a will, there is a way. 

If I were in your shoe, I would do it. I wish you the best.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

elenetxu said:


> If current rules are still in effect when you arrive, the first six months (I think) of autonomo are only 50€.
> 
> Your cost of living is going to go way down compared to what we have in the states BUT your wages will too. Keep in mind that the average local working +/- 40 hr/wk earns 1000€.
> 
> You sound like you've really got things covered. I'm sure you'll do just fine. To tell you the truth, my husband is a percussionist and it's his music skills that are pulling us through the infamous Spanish economic crisis, not his university degrees!



I'm probably taking this out of context - but who earns that amount? 

That's 25 euros/hour which is way above the national average, isn't it?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

snikpoh said:


> I'm probably taking this out of context - but who earns that amount?
> 
> That's 25 euros/hour which is way above the national average, isn't it?


I'm pretty sure she means 1000€ a month........


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

snikpoh said:


> I'm probably taking this out of context - but who earns that amount?
> 
> That's 25 euros/hour which is way above the national average, isn't it?


 40 hours a *week* for 1000€ per *month*


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> 40 hours a *week* for 1000€ per *month*


Thank you.


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## webmarcos (Dec 25, 2012)

snikpoh said:


> I'm probably taking this out of context - but who earns that amount?
> 
> That's 25 euros/hour which is way above the national average, isn't it?


Business English and experienced private teachers in Madrid typically charge 25-35 euros per hour. Take a look at the rates on here (and I know personally someone who charges 30+ ) Profesores - Madrid
Of course, they don't earn 1000 a week! You have to factor in travelling and preparation time, and besides few teachers will have more than 4 or 5 hours of class a day.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

webmarcos said:


> Business English and experienced private teachers in Madrid typically charge 25-35 euros per hour. Take a look at the rates on here (and I know personally someone who charges 30+ ) Profesores - Madrid
> Of course, they don't earn 1000 a week! You have to factor in travelling and preparation time, and besides few teachers will have more than 4 or 5 hours of class a day.


And of course there are quite a few void periods, such as the sumer months


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

sistersibling said:


> Ah, okay, good to know.
> 
> That is my understanding. I cannot work full time, I believe it's just 18-20 hours/week.


I believe that for teachers they only count contact time, which usually amounts to no more than 25 hours a week anyway (the rest is taken up by prep time and travel time, but doesn't get taken into account). So as a teacher you might be able to legitimately work quite a full week, but only claim 20 hours contact time.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

webmarcos said:


> Business English and experienced private teachers in Madrid typically charge 25-35 euros per hour. Take a look at the rates on here (and I know personally someone who charges 30+ ) Profesores - Madrid
> Of course, they don't earn 1000 a week! You have to factor in travelling and preparation time, and besides few teachers will have more than 4 or 5 hours of class a day.


Yes, I know people on there too


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

Wow, I work in the wrong city! In Seville the going rate is 15€/hr. I'm talking experienced, qualified, native speaker teachers.


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## webmarcos (Dec 25, 2012)

kalohi said:


> Wow, I work in the wrong city! In Seville the going rate is 15€/hr. I'm talking experienced, qualified, native speaker teachers.


Swings and roundabouts. Renting a flat will cost between 550 and 900 a month in Madrid. Surely that's a lot cheaper in Seville?


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

Yes, rental housing is more expensive in Madrid than in Seville: it's 10.50€/m2/month in Madrid city and 7.56€/m2/month in Seville city, according to this. I still say I'm living in the wrong city! Paying a third more in rent doesn't sound too bad if it would mean earning 100% more in salary.


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## sistersibling (Jul 3, 2013)

Doesn't the rent typically fluctuate depending on the barrio you're in?


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

sistersibling said:


> Doesn't the rent typically fluctuate depending on the barrio you're in?


Of course. Those are city-wide averages.


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## ExpatWannabee (Jul 6, 2011)

sistersibling said:


> Doesn't the rent typically fluctuate depending on the barrio you're in?


Even within barrios rent can fluctuate wildly depending on the age of the apartment, whether or not it's been renovated, whether or not it has heat etc.


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