# Observations about some of the downside of New Zealand



## pic

The best advice one can give skilled NZ immigrants today is to wise up about NZ. Imagine working in a third world country or the former "DDR" and you get the picture. And befitting to a country only pretending to be a democratic capitalist economy, NZ is known amongst those who dare to read the fine print, to influence media and falsify statistics to appear like a "Britain in the Tropics". This can only be explained with the quite feeble and bribe/nepotism-riddled economy and the bad living conditions (bad housing, low wages, high crime) that apparently leave the government no choice to lie. If you haven't heard about these facts in the daily press it is due to the intelligent NZ news management. NZ earns as much (about 8 billion $) from Immigrants as from tourism. If you look closely, you can detect a policy to incorporate the immigrant savings within the first 2 years into the NZ economy without paying out any government benefits (not even if you are working and paying taxes). The majority of immigrants who has not "worked themselves poor" after these first two years, leaves, usually empty-handed and without savings. A government statistic states that 98% of immigrants are still there after 2 years. It was publicized on international travel and placed in "quality of life" articles. The truth is that only immigrants already in the country for more than 2 years have participated in it, so the majority of immigrants who had already left the country never showed up in the figures. Other "big claims" are just as unreal when you live here, like "green country", or "educational system that scored high in PISA". This is a place of make-believe. A prop-country.

In relation to work permits there are no rules that you couldn't find overthrown tomorrow. The economy is weak and unstable due to soft laws, bribing, nepotism and a brutal government employee attitude of "squeezing out money for oneself no matter what" commonly only found in this quantity in third world countries with an economically traumatized middle class like Guatemala. Any government official who can afford it has a house in other countries. That alone says a lot. And it is simply not true that the average person works less. If they want to get ahead and not drift through life with minimal money, they work the same hours, but in cold and damp offices, earnings half of what you get for the same work in Europe (if you get 40.000 EUR, expect to get 40.000 NZ$ here, which are 20.000 EUR). Yes, living costs are "the same" compared to the rest of the industrialized world, but you earn half, so what does that mean for your spending power in a country that imports everything from toothbrushes to TVs for regular EUR and US$ prices? Many working adults in Auckland can't even afford their own apartment and you can find many groups of 3-4 40 year olds accountants, sales people, bank employees or other middle class workers, sharing houses just because the rents are so ridiculously high and they are still paying off years for a simple TV. Buying houses can be a shocking experience. The houses are not insulated and without proper heating giving New Zealanders the highest asthma statistics. It's the kind of housing you buy as "garden sheds" in Europe. This alone must be one of the weirdest aspects of this bloated, false palm tree-economy and one of the main reasons my husband and I are leaving the country soon. No realistic relation between house prices and what you get for the money. A normal garden shed type house (a timber frame with wood panels nailed on) costs about as much as a "real" house in Europe made of stone, with heating and insulation, which you pay off with halved wages. Which means, NZlers actually never own their houses, but pay "rent" to the banks all their lives. Pretending to be more than one is, is a big sport here.

Recently a lot of European immigrants have been chased out of the country after they were fired and lost their work visas. It was a little national scandal going through the leading papers, Currently New Zealand is loosing many of the foreign skilled laborers they so feverishly tried bring into the country in the past years. Also 40.000 Kiwis leave for Australia every year (which is a lot with a population of 4 million), because of the bad wages while government agencies stall applications of immigrants. What you have heard about "better have a job before coming to NZ" is a result of of that blind, confused nationalistic activism. The job situation is especially bad for everyone "skilled" like Ad and Media professionals, teachers, consultants or other office or class room professionals. There are many stories of Europeans and US citizens being mobbed and excluded from positions which are continuously advertised as free. This is not Europe or the US, so being forced to work under inhumane conditions or being subjected to mobbing and racist jokes or being excluded based on gender, race or nationality is not something you can bring to court here. It is more likely that the police will come to your house to harass you, because one of his cousins works in the same office with you and heard that you had been complaining about NZ (when all you might have said is that you are freezing at your desk because the room is unheated and that this is something that could not happen in Europe)

Under such conditions, should you still try to get a work visa from Europe or the US before coming here? Why not, but it might not be worth the paper that it is written on, because you can easily spent 6 months to a year here (finance with your own money) without being hired (despite several jobs available you would be a perfect match for) and then you have to return anyway. And you couldn't even enjoy the beach, because you are burning away your savings and subjecing yourself to unjust treatment and a world of abuse where you as a person count little. If you really need to be in this country, come here for three months on a tourist visa in a test run, and see if you could get a job in your line of work and if the money would be enough and if you can stand the "socialist economy" attitudes, store inventory, housing, and the constant degrading comments about foreigners meant to be funny, but that just get on every immigrants nerves never after the 10th time while you degrade to just another NZ cash cow. The over-eagerly nice NZ people that do everything for paying tourists are the same people that will harass and ignore anyone who attempts to settle down here and take away "their" jobs.

In any case NZ itself is always the winner, financially, but at what cost. I shudder when I think about what moral values NZ destroys, just for a short-sighted, greedy gain of undoubtedly heavy immigrant savings. And if you see yourself in old age and think about your contribution to the world, is it really the right thing to do to spend your life supporting a degrading, nature and value destroying little country with low morale? I'm not a social worker or doctor, but the thought of me supporting this country by living here, while I see what it does to people and nature, and values is something that has gotten to me over the past two years. I don't think anyone serious about not only their carbon but also their "moral" footprint wants to have that on their conscience. And also, even if you get used to being the immigrant idiot everyone takes advantage of (especially when you are an intellectual and skilled and like doing a good job), and eventually learn to steal and bribe and cheat your way up the NZ social ladder "Number 8 wire" style (because there is no other way to do it), can you get over the fact that you've been compromised by a society where dishonesty is a high moral value?. How much can you enjoy a nice beach so that you forget that constant bad feeling in your stomach of supporting the wrong cause in a place far away from friends, family and decency? Europe and the US are not great achievements of mankind in many ways, but at least, they're not prop countries, a film set where everything looks like the real thing, but isn't. The only real thing here is the nature, and it comes down to living in a "Dharma Initiative" tropical camp that rewards the ones that bribe, steal, cheat, kill and torment, and slowly destroys the honest people.


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## topcat83

What can I say, Pic? That's obviously one point of view.

Let's look at it from the point of view of someone who was born in the country and has New Zealand citizenship (BTW, I am not a NZ citizen).

It's a global recession. People are being made redundant - including those who are in the country on work visas.

There are less jobs to go round. If there is a job going, am I more likely to give it to a New Zealander, or an immigrant?

If there is a person in the country on a work visa, but they can't find a job, then as a country what should we do? Give them social security pay-outs? Or send them home?

As difficult as it is, I think I know what the most likely answers are....


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## KiwiNomad

WOW!!!!
Yes it may be more Socialist than "pic" likes, and the Maori activists etc get more attention than they deserve but I think "pic needs to get out of NZ and go home. "pic" has a little bit of an attitude problem which will definitely affect the way people will treat him/her. What a load of drivel.

I am returning to NZ after leaving for a few months - in 1986. I have been lucky enough to have the opportunity to visit and work in many countries in Europe and SE Asia (yes including the Kiwi 1st stop in OZ). And I would prefer Asia to Europe anytime.

And the reason I am coming back to NZ is so my (Asian) wife and daughter can grow up in an atmosphere of freedom, learn better English and finish her education to an internationally acceptable standard, not be subjected to the daily harassment of beggars in the streets, not be scared to drive or scared to even walk in the streets at night. 

I would love to give my personal views on each country I have been to, but I would probably limit it to a sentence each not a diatribe that was not at all helpful to the person who started this thread......hmmm what was the question?


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## Rlisee

Hi All,

(topcat83)

Thanks! I'll look into it.

(PIC)

That was the longest reply ever. Geez, thanks for taking the time out to write that 5 paragraph worth of your experience. I might have to re-read it again in case i missed out anything. Seems a little gloomy on your side, where's your next move gonna be?

(KiwiNomad)

Hey, good thing to return back to NZ. Which countries have you been? Look pretty easy for you to move around from countries to countries and work anywhere you like. Since, I'm not as nomadic as you, I would like an opinion from you regarding this thread - Visa Or Job First before packing my bags and heading to NZ? I don't want to be unprepared down under eventually.

Cheers Guys!


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## Pepperpot

pic said:


> The best advice one can give skilled NZ immigrants today is to wise up about NZ. Imagine working in a third world country or the former "DDR" and you get the picture. And befitting to a country only pretending to be a democratic capitalist economy, NZ is known amongst those who dare to read the fine print, to influence media and falsify statistics to appear like a "Britain in the Tropics". This can only be explained with the quite feeble and bribe/nepotism-riddled economy and the bad living conditions (bad housing, low wages, high crime) that apparently leave the government no choice to lie. If you haven't heard about these facts in the daily press it is due to the intelligent NZ news management. NZ earns as much (about 8 billion $) from Immigrants as from tourism. If you look closely, you can detect a policy to incorporate the immigrant savings within the first 2 years into the NZ economy without paying out any government benefits (not even if you are working and paying taxes). The majority of immigrants who has not "worked themselves poor" after these first two years, leaves, usually empty-handed and without savings. A government statistic states that 98% of immigrants are still there after 2 years. It was publicized on international travel and placed in "quality of life" articles. The truth is that only immigrants already in the country for more than 2 years have participated in it, so the majority of immigrants who had already left the country never showed up in the figures. Other "big claims" are just as unreal when you live here, like "green country", or "educational system that scored high in PISA". This is a place of make-believe. A prop-country.
> 
> In relation to work permits there are no rules that you couldn't find overthrown tomorrow. The economy is weak and unstable due to soft laws, bribing, nepotism and a brutal government employee attitude of "squeezing out money for oneself no matter what" commonly only found in this quantity in third world countries with an economically traumatized middle class like Guatemala. Any government official who can afford it has a house in other countries. That alone says a lot. And it is simply not true that the average person works less. If they want to get ahead and not drift through life with minimal money, they work the same hours, but in cold and damp offices, earnings half of what you get for the same work in Europe (if you get 40.000 EUR, expect to get 40.000 NZ$ here, which are 20.000 EUR). Yes, living costs are "the same" compared to the rest of the industrialized world, but you earn half, so what does that mean for your spending power in a country that imports everything from toothbrushes to TVs for regular EUR and US$ prices? Many working adults in Auckland can't even afford their own apartment and you can find many groups of 3-4 40 year olds accountants, sales people, bank employees or other middle class workers, sharing houses just because the rents are so ridiculously high and they are still paying off years for a simple TV. Buying houses can be a shocking experience. The houses are not insulated and without proper heating giving New Zealanders the highest asthma statistics. It's the kind of housing you buy as "garden sheds" in Europe. This alone must be one of the weirdest aspects of this bloated, false palm tree-economy and one of the main reasons my husband and I are leaving the country soon. No realistic relation between house prices and what you get for the money. A normal garden shed type house (a timber frame with wood panels nailed on) costs about as much as a "real" house in Europe made of stone, with heating and insulation, which you pay off with halved wages. Which means, NZlers actually never own their houses, but pay "rent" to the banks all their lives. Pretending to be more than one is, is a big sport here.
> 
> Recently a lot of European immigrants have been chased out of the country after they were fired and lost their work visas. It was a little national scandal going through the leading papers, Currently New Zealand is loosing many of the foreign skilled laborers they so feverishly tried bring into the country in the past years. Also 40.000 Kiwis leave for Australia every year (which is a lot with a population of 4 million), because of the bad wages while government agencies stall applications of immigrants. What you have heard about "better have a job before coming to NZ" is a result of of that blind, confused nationalistic activism. The job situation is especially bad for everyone "skilled" like Ad and Media professionals, teachers, consultants or other office or class room professionals. There are many stories of Europeans and US citizens being mobbed and excluded from positions which are continuously advertised as free. This is not Europe or the US, so being forced to work under inhumane conditions or being subjected to mobbing and racist jokes or being excluded based on gender, race or nationality is not something you can bring to court here. It is more likely that the police will come to your house to harass you, because one of his cousins works in the same office with you and heard that you had been complaining about NZ (when all you might have said is that you are freezing at your desk because the room is unheated and that this is something that could not happen in Europe)
> 
> Under such conditions, should you still try to get a work visa from Europe or the US before coming here? Why not, but it might not be worth the paper that it is written on, because you can easily spent 6 months to a year here (finance with your own money) without being hired (despite several jobs available you would be a perfect match for) and then you have to return anyway. And you couldn't even enjoy the beach, because you are burning away your savings and subjecing yourself to unjust treatment and a world of abuse where you as a person count little. If you really need to be in this country, come here for three months on a tourist visa in a test run, and see if you could get a job in your line of work and if the money would be enough and if you can stand the "socialist economy" attitudes, store inventory, housing, and the constant degrading comments about foreigners meant to be funny, but that just get on every immigrants nerves never after the 10th time while you degrade to just another NZ cash cow. The over-eagerly nice NZ people that do everything for paying tourists are the same people that will harass and ignore anyone who attempts to settle down here and take away "their" jobs.
> 
> In any case NZ itself is always the winner, financially, but at what cost. I shudder when I think about what moral values NZ destroys, just for a short-sighted, greedy gain of undoubtedly heavy immigrant savings. And if you see yourself in old age and think about your contribution to the world, is it really the right thing to do to spend your life supporting a degrading, nature and value destroying little country with low morale? I'm not a social worker or doctor, but the thought of me supporting this country by living here, while I see what it does to people and nature, and values is something that has gotten to me over the past two years. I don't think anyone serious about not only their carbon but also their "moral" footprint wants to have that on their conscience. And also, even if you get used to being the immigrant idiot everyone takes advantage of (especially when you are an intellectual and skilled and like doing a good job), and eventually learn to steal and bribe and cheat your way up the NZ social ladder "Number 8 wire" style (because there is no other way to do it), can you get over the fact that you've been compromised by a society where dishonesty is a high moral value?. How much can you enjoy a nice beach so that you forget that constant bad feeling in your stomach of supporting the wrong cause in a place far away from friends, family and decency? Europe and the US are not great achievements of mankind in many ways, but at least, they're not prop countries, a film set where everything looks like the real thing, but isn't. The only real thing here is the nature, and it comes down to living in a "Dharma Initiative" tropical camp that rewards the ones that bribe, steal, cheat, kill and torment, and slowly destroys the honest people.


That has confirmed my worse fears, and is sadly not the 1st time I have heard these views. It is these observations which are making us think we will not emmigrate to NZ.

Nice "Lost" analogy by the way!


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## topcat83

Pepperpot said:


> That has confirmed my worse fears, and is sadly not the 1st time I have heard these views. It is these observations which are making us think we will not emmigrate to NZ.
> 
> Nice "Lost" analogy by the way!


...but balance the number of positive posts to negatives on this forum.

I think there are way more people who are positive about this beautiful country than negative.

Good luck, wherever you end up.


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## American Guy

I, for one, have to (mostly) agree with pic.

My family (wife, 2 children) took a LONG look at relocating to NZ. Just so you understand our personal situation, my wife and I both have doctorates (she just received hers - took 7 years!), and we are both white collar professionals. I am an entrepreneur, and I have no fear of working for myself. Our children are at opposite ends of the developmental spectrum - one is very delayed; one is extremely advanced. The delayed child has a lot of medical issues, but he is quite stable and doing well. I filed an EOI, and we received enough points to apply despite not have any employment offers. One would think that my family (okay, not so much with my one child's issues, but otherwise) would be one that the NZ government would WANT to move there. So, we went to NZ, looked around for several weeks, returned to the US, and decided NOT to relocate there. Why?

1. Employment/Income/Expenses - yes, there is a global Great Recession, but, still, there are next to zero employment opportunities for either my wife or I, and, frankly, starting a business (legally) in NZ is next to impossible. What we were able to find for employment paid, on average, about 40% of what we earned in the US. Now, income is only half the equation - your living standard depends on income AND expenses. What we found was a joke. Everything is shockingly more expensive than in the US. Rents and housing prices are ridiculous, and the state of NZ housing stock is, and should be, a national scandal - mold, lack of insulation, poor construction, etc. Mortgages are not that easy to obtain, and the rates in NZ are much higher than in the US. Gas is triple what we pay here. Utilities - easily double. Food - double. Clothing - about 150% higher (and of much worse quality). Education - more expensive ("public" schools still require lots of fees to be paid - not so in the US). Taxes - about on par with the US now with the Obama Administration. So, we'd lose 60% of our income and pay double (or more) in expenses. Obviously, this isn't sustainable.

2. Culture - The notion that Kiwis are friendly and open to outsiders is totally false. While not outright, violently opposed to our presence, it was made clear to us, especially when we mentioned to some that we were looking to relocate to NZ, that we weren't welcome. Crime is, indeed, an issue in NZ - a lot of blossoming gang issues, especially for such a small country.

3. Education - the education system in NZ plays to the middle - basically, it's a race to mediocrity there. My delayed child? He'd suffer tremendously - few services and no assistance, unless you want to "buy" help, which would increase our expenses tremendously. My advanced child? Same issues, but in reverse. Excellence is not rewarded - it's more of a socialist, "let's all be the same" kind of attitude. The US seems some of this as well, but it's not nearly as bad here.

4. Healthcare - Despite all the joyous claims that nationalized medical care is such a great thing (thanks, Obama), we found the exact opposite. Long waits, poor care, etc. No thanks.

The list is endless, but we saw what we needed to see, and we decided to stay here. I'm not angry at NZ (unlike pic), but if you want to move there, you'd better be prepared for disappointment. It isn't what the stories say it is - no place really is. You may just be trading one type unhappiness with another.


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## topcat83

American Guy said:


> I, for one, have to (mostly) agree with pic.
> 
> My family (wife, 2 children) took a LONG look at relocating to NZ. Just so you understand our personal situation, my wife and I both have doctorates (she just received hers - took 7 years!), and we are both white collar professionals. I am an entrepreneur, and I have no fear of working for myself. Our children are at opposite ends of the developmental spectrum - one is very delayed; one is extremely advanced. The delayed child has a lot of medical issues, but he is quite stable and doing well. I filed an EOI, and we received enough points to apply despite not have any employment offers. One would think that my family (okay, not so much with my one child's issues, but otherwise) would be one that the NZ government would WANT to move there. So, we went to NZ, looked around for several weeks, returned to the US, and decided NOT to relocate there.


American Guy, you and your family are obviously in the lucky position of being a reasonably high income family - can I answer what our (and our friends experience) has been as middle-income families, mainly from the UK?



> 1. Employment/Income/Expenses - yes, there is a global Great Recession, but, still, there are next to zero employment opportunities for either my wife or I, and, frankly, starting a business (legally) in NZ is next to impossible. What we were able to find for employment paid, on average, about 40% of what we earned in the US.


 I'd agree with this - we estimate our income to be about two-thirds what it was in the UK


> Now, income is only half the equation - your living standard depends on income AND expenses. What we found was a joke. Everything is shockingly more expensive than in the US.


 but we didn't find this when compared with the UK. And i think it would depend which part of the US you were living in.


> Rents and housing prices are ridiculous


We certainly didn't find this. We have a beautiful 4 double-bedroomed house with views over the water to Auckland in a lovely suburb for the same price we paid for a small three-bedroomed semi in the outskirts of London.


> and the state of NZ housing stock is, and should be, a national scandal - mold, lack of insulation, poor construction, etc.


....in SOME houses. There has been a problem with some houses built within a certain date range, and it HAS caused a national scandal. The thing to do is to be careful when choosing a house, or build your own. New builds are generally a very good quality now.


> Mortgages are not that easy to obtain, and the rates in NZ are much higher than in the US.


And when compared to the UK. Probably the biggest issue here - a number of friends have overstretched themselves. The thing to do is to realise in advance and plan accordingly.


> Gas is triple what we pay here. Utilities - easily double.


But not when compared to the UK.


> Food - double.


Don't buy imported and stick to NZ produce and it isn't


> Clothing - about 150% higher (and of much worse quality).


Depends where you shop. I've found some great clothes shops at really reasonable prices


> Education - more expensive ("public" schools still require lots of fees to be paid - not so in the US).


'Public' schools have a donation system that it is strongly suggested you pay - but it is a donation, it tends to be at the higher decile schools (where the parents are in a high income bracket) and generally the education standard in these shcools is very good.


> Taxes - about on par with the US now with the Obama Administration.


So you're obviously a Republican....... Could explain why some Kiwis weren't that friendly 


> So, we'd lose 60% of our income and pay double (or more) in expenses. Obviously, this isn't sustainable.


If i were you i'd stay at home 



> 2. Culture - The notion that Kiwis are friendly and open to outsiders is totally false. While not outright, violently opposed to our presence, it was made clear to us, especially when we mentioned to some that we were looking to relocate to NZ, that we weren't welcome.


See comment above  We've had no problems.


> Crime is, indeed, an issue in NZ - a lot of blossoming gang issues, especially for such a small country.


You've obviously not been to London recently - Harrow is becoming a ghetto. In the NZ this tends to be limited to the Maori gangs, they keep themselves to themselves, and it's not 'blossoming' - it's been here for a long time, and is historical.



> 3. Education - the education system in NZ plays to the middle - basically, it's a race to mediocrity there. My delayed child? He'd suffer tremendously - few services and no assistance, unless you want to "buy" help, which would increase our expenses tremendously. My advanced child? Same issues, but in reverse. Excellence is not rewarded - it's more of a socialist, "let's all be the same" kind of attitude.


Can't comment on the delayed child - but at the advanced end? I have a friend with a gifted child, and they have nothing but praise. The child is helped at every stage by being put in classes at higher yeargroups for lessons, while still being encouraged to keep friends in her own yeargroup.



> 4. Healthcare - Despite all the joyous claims that nationalized medical care is such a great thing (thanks, Obama), we found the exact opposite. Long waits, poor care, etc. No thanks.


You can obviously afford the healthcare insurance that gives you that high level of care. Try asking someone who has been made redundant what they'd prefer - no health cover at all, or pretty decent health cover at a very reasonable cost. I know what I'd choose every time.



> The list is endless, but we saw what we needed to see, and we decided to stay here. I'm not angry at NZ (unlike pic), but if you want to move there, you'd better be prepared for disappointment. It isn't what the stories say it is - no place really is. You may just be trading one type unhappiness with another.


I do recommend that people do their homework and don't come over with rose-coloured glasses.

And expect it to rain. There's a reason why the Maori name is 'Land of the Long White Cloud


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## pic

Hm, I guess I wrote myself into a hot frenzy there in "the worlds longest forum post". Nevertheless we just came back from a trip to one of the national parks (a word that means "protected land" in other countries). Again we were forced to rethink our decision to leave NZ, when looking at the breathtaking landscape. But then we saw that "national park" means "amusement park" in NZ, with 300 Ski Lifts on land that was donated by the Maori to be protected and cherished, not to be run to the ground with tourism. (I wonder who pockets the money that is made on the sacred mountains. The Maori chief who donated the land must turn in his grave with sad rage every winter season)

And to shorten the discussion about good versus bad comments: Your view onto NZ explains itself based on where you come from. If you come from Europe and the US, NZ is 2-3 grades down in job security, housing, democratic stability, safety and earning power. When you come from other countries, it is 2-10 grades up in all those aspects. I would bet that most of the positive posts were made by people originating from India, Asia, the former Soviet Union, South America, Eastern Europe, Africa and countries with similar political/economical/social conditions (or from people who live close to the bottom of the economic ladder in Europe or the US) No problem with NZ being at the lower end of democracy, if it wasn't for the falsified statistics and misleading brand image that NZ fabricates to trick international professionals into thinking they can find adequate work here. American Guy was clever and checked the facts personally before moving here. My husband and I, we just didn't think that a government would play with the asset of the hard working professionals that are the breadwinners of each country so carelessly. That still blows my mind, but it helps to see NZ as a third world country to understand how economic desperation drives a nation to exploit and then throw away the good people instead of using them to lift NZ out of poverty.

The heart wrenching aspect about New Zealand is that just the beauty of the landscape alone would justify living here, if new Zealanders wouldn't systematically destroy everything beautiful and turn the country into a trash-littered Trailer Park, which you have to look at every day as you drive through it to work or to the stores. And even if you found a still untouched piece of land, there would already be those ugly little sections, half filled with overpriced box houses that look like a dog sheds. You know, those houses where the bath tiles are put up on the outside (to hose down the house?) and where the top of the windows touch the roof (a design that takes the European traditional style and just saves a few inches of material resulting in this ridiculous caricature of a squashed wood cabin). Ironically, with that missing space above the windows it looks like the face of someone with a very low forehead. 

And now people with countries that have been striped of all wood, fish, wildlife and other natural resources have discovered NZ and are in the process of consuming it up until there is nothing left. NZ is like a gigantic, mostly unprotected national conservation park and a little paradise for all who like to fish, hunt, camp and house-build the worlds ugliest houses, as if there was no tomorrow. For someone who doesn't give a damn, life is always easy and great, ESPECIALLY in New Zealand where one can safely harvest, cut down, run down, cover with concrete and litter with garbage. Of course these people would have only good things to say about NZ but I think I wouldn't have anything good to say about them. 

It's not easy to leave NZ's natural beauty behind and we'll definitely be back, but not to work and live here, only as tourists, like all others who would have helped to push NZ to world standard but instead are pushed out by the mediocre and greedy who can now again be safely amongst themselves and continue to stew in their own juices.


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## topcat83

Hi Pic Lol! I just love reading your postings.....


pic said:


> Hm, I guess I wrote myself into a hot frenzy there in "the worlds longest forum post". Nevertheless we just came back from a trip to one of the national parks (a word that means "protected land" in other countries). Again we were forced to rethink our decision to leave NZ, when looking at the breathtaking landscape. But then we saw that "national park" means "amusement park" in NZ, with 300 Ski Lifts on land that was donated by the Maori to be protected and cherished, not to be run to the ground with tourism. (I wonder who pockets the money that is made on the sacred mountains. The Maori chief who donated the land must turn in his grave with sad rage every winter season)


300 ski lifts - I'd be amazed if there were 300 in the whole of NZ!!! In comparison to many countries 9including France) we have a very small ski industry - although it is growing.



> And to shorten the discussion about good versus bad comments: Your view onto NZ explains itself based on where you come from. If you come from Europe and the US, NZ is 2-3 grades down in job security, housing, democratic stability, safety and earning power. When you come from other countries, it is 2-10 grades up in all those aspects. I would bet that most of the positive posts were made by people originating from India, Asia, the former Soviet Union, South America, Eastern Europe, Africa and countries with similar political/economical/social conditions (or from people who live close to the bottom of the economic ladder in Europe or the US)


Actually many of us (me included) come from the UK. Although I can't say the UK doesn't have its problems i don't think it fits into the categories you've just mentioned.....



> No problem with NZ being at the lower end of democracy, if it wasn't for the falsified statistics and misleading brand image that NZ fabricates to trick international professionals into thinking they can find adequate work here.


NZ was the first country to give women the vote, and to have a woman PM. I personally think it is one of the most democratic countries I have ever visited. (after saying that, National is in now - with a few too many Thatcher-like policies for my liking )



> American Guy was clever and checked the facts personally before moving here.


Agreed - it isn't for everyone)



> My husband and I, we just didn't think that a government would play with the asset of the hard working professionals that are the breadwinners of each country so carelessly. That still blows my mind, but it helps to see NZ as a third world country to understand how economic desperation drives a nation to exploit and then throw away the good people instead of using them to lift NZ out of poverty.


....except we were never in a depression when compared with the rest of the world. It really hasn't been that bad over the last couple of years. I know - I've been living and working here.



> The heart wrenching aspect about New Zealand is that just the beauty of the landscape alone would justify living here, if new Zealanders wouldn't systematically destroy everything beautiful and turn the country into a trash-littered Trailer Park, which you have to look at every day as you drive through it to work or to the stores.[


Sorry - are we talking about the same country here? I don't recognise your description.



> And even if you found a still untouched piece of land, there would already be those ugly little sections, half filled with overpriced box houses that look like a dog sheds. You know, those houses where the bath tiles are put up on the outside (to hose down the house?) and where the top of the windows touch the roof (a design that takes the European traditional style and just saves a few inches of material resulting in this ridiculous caricature of a squashed wood cabin). Ironically, with that missing space above the windows it looks like the face of someone with a very low forehead.


I think you've just become offensive and placed yourself firmly in the court of someone with a chip on their shoulder who should have their visa permanentlt rescinded.... This is my chosen country you are talking about and (warts and all) I love living here. 



> And now people with countries that have been striped of all wood, fish, wildlife and other natural resources have discovered NZ and are in the process of consuming it up until there is nothing left. NZ is like a gigantic, mostly unprotected national conservation park and a little paradise for all who like to fish, hunt, camp and house-build the worlds ugliest houses, as if there was no tomorrow. For someone who doesn't give a damn, life is always easy and great, ESPECIALLY in New Zealand where one can safely harvest, cut down, run down, cover with concrete and litter with garbage. Of course these people would have only good things to say about NZ but I think I wouldn't have anything good to say about them.


I was surprised about the number of 'hunter-gatherers' there are in NZ - but that is because they have looked after their resources, and therefore there are things to hunt and gather. For example, there are very strict quotas and rules about the number and size of fish that you can take. Paua (abalone) cannot be harvested using scuba gear. There are extremely strict rules THAT ARE ENFORCED. You can have your car and boat confiscated if you are caught breaking the rules. There are large marine reserves and national parks. Many islands off the coast are now home to endangered species. Hydroelectric schemes have been curtailed to prevent the raising of some lakes. Does this sound like a country that is not looking after its wildlife and natural resources?



> It's not easy to leave NZ's natural beauty behind and we'll definitely be back, but not to work and live here, only as tourists, like all others who would have helped to push NZ to world standard but instead are pushed out by the mediocre and greedy who can now again be safely amongst themselves and continue to stew in their own juices.


Please don't come back, even as a tourist - we don't want someone who slags us off. Find somewhere else to slag off - I'm sure you will.

We need people who will be a positive influence on this country, and I don't think you make the grade.


----------



## Pepperpot

topcat83 said:


> Hi Pic Lol! I just love reading your postings.....300 ski lifts - I'd be amazed if there were 300 in the whole of NZ!!! In comparison to many countries 9including France) we have a very small ski industry - although it is growing.
> 
> Actually many of us (me included) come from the UK. Although I can't say the UK doesn't have its problems i don't think it fits into the categories you've just mentioned.....
> 
> NZ was the first country to give women the vote, and to have a woman PM. I personally think it is one of the most democratic countries I have ever visited. (after saying that, National is in now - with a few too many Thatcher-like policies for my liking )
> 
> Agreed - it isn't for everyone)
> 
> ....except we were never in a depression when compared with the rest of the world. It really hasn't been that bad over the last couple of years. I know - I've been living and working here.
> 
> Sorry - are we talking about the same country here? I don't recognise your description.
> 
> I think you've just become offensive and placed yourself firmly in the court of someone with a chip on their shoulder who should have their visa permanentlt rescinded.... This is my chosen country you are talking about and (warts and all) I love living here.
> 
> I was surprised about the number of 'hunter-gatherers' there are in NZ - but that is because they have looked after their resources, and therefore there are things to hunt and gather. For example, there are very strict quotas and rules about the number and size of fish that you can take. Paua (abalone) cannot be harvested using scuba gear. There are extremely strict rules THAT ARE ENFORCED. You can have your car and boat confiscated if you are caught breaking the rules. There are large marine reserves and national parks. Many islands off the coast are now home to endangered species. Hydroelectric schemes have been curtailed to prevent the raising of some lakes. Does this sound like a country that is not looking after its wildlife and natural resources?
> 
> 
> Please don't come back, even as a tourist - we don't want someone who slags us off. Find somewhere else to slag off - I'm sure you will.
> 
> We need people who will be a positive influence on this country, and I don't think you make the grade.


I want to be an asset to NZ, but I can't find work over there, despite having PR. It is very difficult to find a middle ground, people either hate, or love NZ. I have PR but I am seriously thinking about staying put.


----------



## pic

Obviously people either hate or love NZ. The ones that hate NZ usually back up their opinion with pacts, the "happy clappers" don't. Searching for the reasons for this phenomena I came across Judith Schalansky's book "An Atlas of Remote Islands". In it she describes the psychological effect that makes island people develop an "us against the rest of the world" mindset, with mantras thrown at "non-believers", such as:

-"if you don't like it (exactly as it is), you can go home"
-"you've got an attitude problem"
-"it's all in your head"
-"if you would try more, you would like it"

The further away the island, the more fanatic, irrational and aggressive the behavior get. The strange aggression of which Topcats "let's revoke all thinking-people's visas" is only the tip of the iceberg, remind one of the fanatic followers in dictatorships or religious cults. Topcat83 shows his own island irrationality with the 300 ski lifts. The first assumption someone who was not bitten by the island bug would have, is that I, the traveler, saw a sign at the mountain or in a tourist guide advertising the 300 ski lifts. Why would I make up this number? But if making up stories is your daily madness, then assuming that everyone else is a liar, too, would be, of course your natural reaction. Or, as George Carlin said: language always gives you away.

It's a waste of time to discuss post of island fanatics, unless you have a medical interest in the workings of a mind out of touch with reality. All you get are the standard mantras, randomly inserted after facts, combined with staged theatrical outrage. And then, the same unprofessionalism that makes people become fanatics, makes people like Big-Brother-soldier Topcat83 (who would chase all real professionals out of the country), turn like a leaf in the wind and give tourists a fat grin that buy his overpriced honey or stay in his moldy guest room without central heating for 100 Dollars a night. That reminds me of the hotel owner near Taupo who waltzed into our room after we'd checked in to inform us that we get central heating "free of charge". Pointing at the rusty radiator he waited for compliments which I had to give him 3 times before he finally left . The gurgling thing, overpainted many times was like the ones we used to have in the 70s in Europe. Certainly nothing to be proudly offered "free of charge". Needless to say that for the "special price" of 85 compare to the regular 120, the rest of the room was equally out of touch with reality. So much for Topcat's idea "we need people who will be a positive influence on this country, and I don't think you make the grade". If that is the kind of positive influence one makes in NZ, then I agree, I would never be able to match that particular grade of shamelessness. That is in a league of its own.

And speaking of "out of touch", anyone who has ever talked to the national park rangers will quickly learn that the ones not abiding to the quotes, fishing in protected ares, spreading diseases and leaving their trash, are not the tourist but always Kiwis. And since rangers can't give out fines or arrest people ( just tell them to leave) just makes the Kiwis hang around at the park entrance and sneak in again at night. Rules with random instead of comprehensive enforcement are worthless, as anyone knows, who thinks. 

All in all, NZ is the quick-tongued but lazy-brained scam artist's paradise and in a sane world, NZ would revoke citizenship to people with Topcats attitudes. But the crooks and dreamers own this beautiful place and there is nothing the honest and hard-working people can do about it. Ironically, just because of people like Topcat, NZ desperately needs people like me as tourists who bring in the money in a way it's own citizens can't. But sometimes you wish the fanatics would actually manage to chase away all constructive, creative hands-on professionals so that the trailer park lovers that have no problem with the garbage and the squashed houses could be amongst themselves. Then they could really run the place down, until only the most deranged ones would not get the facts. I fear NZ is just about heading to that future.


----------



## topcat83

Pic, I'm not going to answer your diatribe again.

I will say this - Kiwis - both those born in the country and us new immigrants - are very proud of our country. That doesn't mean to say we are blind to it's problems - of which it has many.

What we quite rightly don't like are people slagging us off in the kind of way that you have in your postings. Can you imagine if someone came over to France for a visit and then wrote the kinds of things you have been saying? 

It's not what you are saying but the way you are saying it which is insulting.


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## Elphaba

One person's experience is not the only one. It appears that Pic has had an unhappy time in NZ, but this is far from the case for many people. Not every country is suitable for every person. Sometimes people are not successful and have to blame a whole country for this.

-


----------



## pic

Do I really have to explain what fanaticism is now? Fanaticism is a state of mind where someone mixes self esteem with an abstract idea (a belief, a country, a theory etc). The technique to make someone mix up love of a country with self-love is used in the military to make a soldier die for the country, and it is understandable in historic context why this is done. Here, the absurdity is that the fanatic happy clappers in this forum don't get paid, don't get any medals and have no other advantages except an artificial sense of pride or honor they are unable to experience on their own. 

So if I say something negative about the country NZ, a fanatic takes it as if it was an attack on a person, or a group of people, or him personally. Because normally, unless someone was actually committing all the things that I criticized: littering, scamming etc, why would a person get all emotional about it? So if someone does get emotional, he either did commit all or some of these things himself, or he's a fanatic. Neither of the two have a place in a modern society which NZ claims to be. Fanatic behavior combined with the "we against the rest" island mentality, and you got yourself a self-proclaimed civilian army. Just what the world needs. More aggressive honor-junkies in search for any opportunity to separate people based on nationality, race, gender or ideas, and not based on justice and value of work, as is common in countries NZ tries to compete with.

In Europe and the US, the standard middle class person, like me, doesn't feel personally offended if someone says anything bad about a country, their own or any other, especially if there are facts to back it up. "We" don't connect self-esteem with a nation but with personal achievement. Pride alone without personal achievement doesn't make for a good citizen, either. Adhering to country rules does, at which Kiwis are particularly bad at. And again, this is not about people "visiting" NZ, but about professionals being giving a PR by the NZ government and then immigrating, based on false information. A different thing. Paying attention helps to follow subjects.

Elphaba's trick to reduce the facts to the personal experience of an individual who "wasn't successful enough" is questionable. I can see what Elphaba intended with that remark: that I feel like some sort of looser for not "making it" (again, one of the mantras "I didn't try hard enough") thus blaming a whole country for my own failure. But if you've already made it in other countries, and have job offers in NZ, and earn good money with the quality of your work, here and overseas, and have qualifications that are recognized in other countries, not just NZ, this trick just doesn't work. It would work on someone who has little skills or qualifications or professionalism and needs to inflate himself with national pride to feel good, but it just doesn't work on the professionals that NZ has called into the country with free PRs. All that happens is that I see how much this post goes "under the belt line" to attack personally, where one would expect arguments. More fanatic blurbs, this time combined with manipulative personal attacks. Great. More of what makes NZ such a "great place" to live in.

And while you are stomping around with hurt citizen's pride, did it ever occur to you, that those fellow NZ citizens Topcat so generously included in this "we" actually pay him and most other Kiwis half wages, then charge them up the nose for all the nice consumer products, while you guys stumble over yourself here in a desperate attempt to defend some sort of Kiwi honor that has no benefits for you but a soft, cuddly feeling of belonging. Your fellow Kiwi buddies also sell you second rate products that don't sell in Europe and the US. Meanwhile your Kiwi buddies are in their million dollar houses on Hawaii, in the States or in Australia, rubbing their hands and laughing at the naiveté of the old and new citizens. Fanaticism is good business. You guys are even spending your own free time on forums to defend the system that keeps you in poverty. Good on you mate, for being such devoted Kiwi sect soldier, but there are other people who just want to be normal citizens, not sect members.


----------



## jojo

pic said:


> Do I really have to explain what fanaticism is now? Fanaticism is a state of mind where someone mixes self esteem with an abstract idea (a belief, a country, a theory etc). The technique to make someone mix up love of a country with self-love is used in the military to make a soldier die for the country, and it is understandable in historic context why this is done. Here, the absurdity is that the fanatic happy clappers in this forum don't get paid, don't get any medals and have no other advantages except an artificial sense of pride or honor they are unable to experience on their own.
> 
> So if I say something negative about the country NZ, a fanatic takes it as if it was an attack on a person, or a group of people, or him personally. Because normally, unless someone was actually committing all the things that I criticized: littering, scamming etc, why would a person get all emotional about it? So if someone does get emotional, he either did commit all or some of these things himself, or he's a fanatic. Neither of the two have a place in a modern society which NZ claims to be. Fanatic behavior combined with the "we against the rest" island mentality, and you got yourself a self-proclaimed civilian army. Just what the world needs. More aggressive honor-junkies in search for any opportunity to separate people based on nationality, race, gender or ideas, and not based on justice and value of work, as is common in countries NZ tries to compete with.
> 
> In Europe and the US, the standard middle class person, like me, doesn't feel personally offended if someone says anything bad about a country, their own or any other, especially if there are facts to back it up. "We" don't connect self-esteem with a nation but with personal achievement. Pride alone without personal achievement doesn't make for a good citizen, either. Adhering to country rules does, at which Kiwis are particularly bad at. And again, this is not about people "visiting" NZ, but about professionals being giving a PR by the NZ government and then immigrating, based on false information. A different thing. Paying attention helps to follow subjects.
> 
> Elphaba's trick to reduce the facts to the personal experience of an individual who "wasn't successful enough" is questionable. I can see what Elphaba intended with that remark: that I feel like some sort of looser for not "making it" (again, one of the mantras "I didn't try hard enough") thus blaming a whole country for my own failure. But if you've already made it in other countries, and have job offers in NZ, and earn good money with the quality of your work, here and overseas, and have qualifications that are recognized in other countries, not just NZ, this trick just doesn't work. It would work on someone who has little skills or qualifications or professionalism and needs to inflate himself with national pride to feel good, but it just doesn't work on the professionals that NZ has called into the country with free PRs. All that happens is that I see how much this post goes "under the belt line" to attack personally, where one would expect arguments. More fanatic blurbs, this time combined with manipulative personal attacks. Great. More of what makes NZ such a "great place" to live in.
> 
> And while you are stomping around with hurt citizen's pride, did it ever occur to you, that those fellow NZ citizens Topcat so generously included in this "we" actually pay him and most other Kiwis half wages, then charge them up the nose for all the nice consumer products, while you guys stumble over yourself here in a desperate attempt to defend some sort of Kiwi honor that has no benefits for you but a soft, cuddly feeling of belonging. Your fellow Kiwi buddies also sell you second rate products that don't sell in Europe and the US. Meanwhile your Kiwi buddies are in their million dollar houses on Hawaii, in the States or in Australia, rubbing their hands and laughing at the naiveté of the old and new citizens. Fanaticism is good business. You guys are even spending your own free time on forums to defend the system that keeps you in poverty. Good on you mate, for being such devoted Kiwi sect soldier, but there are other people who just want to be normal citizens, not sect members.



Sadly your posts are much too long and far too deep for me to read, but from what I can gather you're not happy living where you are?? 

It doesnt matter what others think or why, what matters is your own happiness which you must go and find, as we all must - remember lifes too short to be unhappy

Jo xxx


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## Bevdeforges

pic said:


> In Europe and the US, the standard middle class person, like me, doesn't feel personally offended if someone says anything bad about a country, their own or any other, especially if there are facts to back it up. "We" don't connect self-esteem with a nation but with personal achievement. Pride alone without personal achievement doesn't make for a good citizen, either. Adhering to country rules does, at which Kiwis are particularly bad at. And again, this is not about people "visiting" NZ, but about professionals being giving a PR by the NZ government and then immigrating, based on false information. A different thing.


Having lived for seven, long miserable years in France before I got my head around the differences and how I was wasting time making myself miserable, I have to disagree with you here.

Trust me, if you're miserable in France, you give immense offense by pointing out that the French don't seem to like to follow their own laws either. (Think, speed limits, helmet laws for motorbikes, paying taxes, etc. etc.) Repeat the same political jokes in France that a Frenchman tells, and you'll get a real earful about national pride if you're a foreigner. (Or even if you have French nationality but weren't born here.)

The Americans take offense just as easily (if not more so). I've managed to offend my fellow countrymen just by mentioning things I've noted about American society in the time I've lived elsewhere.

If you're planning on staying where you are, you ultimately develop a sense of humor about the things that drive you nuts. Write it off to the "charm" of the locals or whatever you have to do to live with it.

And hop on over to the France section here to see what drives the immigrants wild about the inefficient and stupid ways of France, its people and its government. Then tell me that "middle class people" in Europe and America don't take offense when you take the mickey on their country.
Cheers,
Bev


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## Pepperpot

pic said:


> Obviously people either hate or love NZ. The ones that hate NZ usually back up their opinion with pacts, the "happy clappers" don't. Searching for the reasons for this phenomena I came across Judith Schalansky's book "An Atlas of Remote Islands". In it she describes the psychological effect that makes island people develop an "us against the rest of the world" mindset, with mantras thrown at "non-believers", such as:
> 
> -"if you don't like it (exactly as it is), you can go home"
> -"you've got an attitude problem"
> -"it's all in your head"
> -"if you would try more, you would like it"
> 
> The further away the island, the more fanatic, irrational and aggressive the behavior get. The strange aggression of which Topcats "let's revoke all thinking-people's visas" is only the tip of the iceberg, remind one of the fanatic followers in dictatorships or religious cults. Topcat83 shows his own island irrationality with the 300 ski lifts. The first assumption someone who was not bitten by the island bug would have, is that I, the traveler, saw a sign at the mountain or in a tourist guide advertising the 300 ski lifts. Why would I make up this number? But if making up stories is your daily madness, then assuming that everyone else is a liar, too, would be, of course your natural reaction. Or, as George Carlin said: language always gives you away.
> 
> It's a waste of time to discuss post of island fanatics, unless you have a medical interest in the workings of a mind out of touch with reality. All you get are the standard mantras, randomly inserted after facts, combined with staged theatrical outrage. And then, the same unprofessionalism that makes people become fanatics, makes people like Big-Brother-soldier Topcat83 (who would chase all real professionals out of the country), turn like a leaf in the wind and give tourists a fat grin that buy his overpriced honey or stay in his moldy guest room without central heating for 100 Dollars a night. That reminds me of the hotel owner near Taupo who waltzed into our room after we'd checked in to inform us that we get central heating "free of charge". Pointing at the rusty radiator he waited for compliments which I had to give him 3 times before he finally left . The gurgling thing, overpainted many times was like the ones we used to have in the 70s in Europe. Certainly nothing to be proudly offered "free of charge". Needless to say that for the "special price" of 85 compare to the regular 120, the rest of the room was equally out of touch with reality. So much for Topcat's idea "we need people who will be a positive influence on this country, and I don't think you make the grade". If that is the kind of positive influence one makes in NZ, then I agree, I would never be able to match that particular grade of shamelessness. That is in a league of its own.
> 
> And speaking of "out of touch", anyone who has ever talked to the national park rangers will quickly learn that the ones not abiding to the quotes, fishing in protected ares, spreading diseases and leaving their trash, are not the tourist but always Kiwis. And since rangers can't give out fines or arrest people ( just tell them to leave) just makes the Kiwis hang around at the park entrance and sneak in again at night. Rules with random instead of comprehensive enforcement are worthless, as anyone knows, who thinks.
> 
> All in all, NZ is the quick-tongued but lazy-brained scam artist's paradise and in a sane world, NZ would revoke citizenship to people with Topcats attitudes. But the crooks and dreamers own this beautiful place and there is nothing the honest and hard-working people can do about it. Ironically, just because of people like Topcat, NZ desperately needs people like me as tourists who bring in the money in a way it's own citizens can't. But sometimes you wish the fanatics would actually manage to chase away all constructive, creative hands-on professionals so that the trailer park lovers that have no problem with the garbage and the squashed houses could be amongst themselves. Then they could really run the place down, until only the most deranged ones would not get the facts. I fear NZ is just about heading to that future.


You, sir, are a comedy genius and I salute you. Although very scathing in your incisive wit, you are nevertheless very entertaining.


----------



## pic

@Pepperpot
you're probably the only one here who got that this is a forum. Threads like these are such great kickboxing classes in which you get to try out not only the polite and civilized moves but also all the really cool nasty and aggressive ones of which you hope you will never have to use them in the real world. I don't think I kicked as low as some of the others did, though.

While some forums are better for the regular comedy writing, this one with its typical Kiwi audience pulls one to go a bit …further…. on the directness scale. But it was still fun practice. And the Kiwi input makes the entire thread a good answers for all professionals really pondering the visa/work question: It's not yes/no, or either/or, but neither/nor, for just the reasons one can read out of the Kiwi posts. A thread like this could have helped me two years ago to burst the bubble of NZ propaganda and understand, that people with the quality and efficiency - oriented work style don't stand a chance here against the majority of proud-to-be-short poppies. If a few more of the honest people being lured here can *get* that neither work nor visa is the right thing to do, before moving here, then we've actually achieved something good and done or part for world honesty. Nothing beats a good uncovering of what you won't find in any brochure: the hidden agendas.

The French at least don't have a hidden agenda of this magnitude. (I guess you don't need hidden agendas when you have *the Louvre*) allowing immigrants to make real choices. You are not being lured in with silvery, official looking, worthless visa glued into your passport. There are no french statistics downplaying the facts that getting a job in France is difficult, so we've already arranged to work in the UK and German. If we had known right from the start, that NZ is a third world mess with clean streets, we could have created a smiler strategy here in NZ and continued to gain NZ hundreds of thousands of dollars in the coming years. But the shortsighted Kiwis have won, and another country will pocket that money, because, you gotta pay taxes somewhere.

Who would guess that a whole country could focus all its activities on a short con and transform itself into a giant film set made to look good in a travel brochure, with every door fake or locked if you tried to open it. And even the PR is a prop. NZ was the last option on our list we really wanted to try, the last dream a European dreams of a place where one can self-actualize ideas of a healthier lifestyle. English speaking, functioning economy, good education, nice people, little crime, clean and green. And it's all fake. All of it. Even the English-speaking part. Or whatever that stilted language with the strange upwards intonation is, that the under 50 year olds have regressed into, making every sentence a question. Maybe unconsciously expressing an insecurity in the spine of growing up in the all-encompassing fake world their parent's have created here?. So now we move on to other countries with similar lifestyle, but saner economy and more exclamation than question marks. 

We'll be leaving through the door in the blue horizon and let all who can't stand our growing awareness continue the artificial daily NZ soap on this cruel little Truman island.


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## Pepperpot

@Pic. I really hope things work out for you. I have indeed visited the Louvre and it was awe-inspiring. I have clung onto my NZ dream for some time now, but I feel the the life draining from it at a rapid pace. We are unable to find anyone here who would trade places with us and go to NZ, and really start to feel we have been conned. It is a shame that so many go down this path and invest such large amounts of time and money into something that will be ultimately fruitless. I am 90% resolved to the fact that I will be staying put.


----------



## pic

Here are my 5 (or 500  cent to the subject. As I came here 2 years ago, I whited someone had given me real, common sense, down-to-earth impression about the place, so that"s what I'll try to give here. Most important: I think it's vital to know that NZ is a third world country, a bit like a mixture between Mexico and the former DDR. Here a few of the things you will notice every day, which can either meet or contradict your expectations:

buying
if you need something in a particular quality above "really bad" and below " really fancy" (anything, from food items to clothes to appliances etc), choice is poor . Either buy the okay priced (cheap in Europe and the US) but environmentally unfriendly and child-labour produced, low quality goods from China and India, that are worn-out after a year, or get the very expensive European brands, which you often have to buy out of catalogue. Often you don't get this year's model. Things like good washing machines or cars are so extraordinarily expensive, that you can't afford to buy it with a Kiwi salary. If you always buy as cheaply as possible, and don't care about design or product quality, NZ is a good country for you. Not as cheap as Europe or the US, but okay. Rich people order everything or buy in Australia. For middle class people one can't not recommend relocating to NZ. Better find a smaller town in Europe or the US that offers the same lifestyle without the third world disadvantages. 

selling
Because the vast majority is underpaid and a "regular" life is more expensive than everywhere else (remember that everything comes here by ship), there is a commonly felt desperation with most Kiwis to be "left out of the good life" you see in American TV shows, resulting in everything that Kiwis sell in being either really bad quality or highly overpriced, usually both, in order to make as much profit as possible from anyone, especially foreigners. This is even idealized in the image of the typical Kiwi who is admired most when he manages to make money without doing anything (aka ripping someone off). A great place if you really like to get ahead in life in a society where cheating is not frowned on but encouraged. Not a good country for quality oriented people. You will end up having buy inferior goods and services while pretending that it was okay (complaining as tourist is possible, as immigrant, it is not well received)

relaxed lifestyle
NZ is not really relaxed, which you"ll notice when you are here for a year or longer. It's a constant battlefield in which everyones take advantage of everything just to get by day to day. Not surprising with the low wages, which seem to corrupt and erode mentalities and established ideas of fair trade, worth and a sense of value for money. It also means people often do as little as possible to enjoy the little time they have without having to do low wage work. Expect to find old radiators, trash bags, furniture or clothes on the street, at scenic lookouts, in people's yards. Most houses are incredibly run down (Number 8 wire mentality means, fix it as quickly and cheaply as possible, even if it breaks tomorrow) The whole lifestyle is also "forced relaxed" because over achievers are mobbed and excluded (tall poppy syndrome). You are looked down on, if you make an effort. (remember the Kiwi ideal of the lazy guy making money by doing nothing). Again, a great place for people who like to do as little as possible, but still get paid. Bad for everyone who gets pleasure from working. You will get exploited, and also ridiculed and looked down on by society. I'd also doubt that working hours are shorter here. And if you don't want to loose your jobs (if your visa depends on it) you can quickly find yourself working more for half the salary you get in the UK or the US. The relaxed lifestyle is only on the surface. It's a shark tank underneath.

education
The tall poppy syndrome is particularly bad for school children. Read the local papers to see a never-ending row of protests of parents demanding some form of nepotism to stop, grades to be fair and high achievers not to be discouraged from achieving (for anything else besides sports). And those are only the ones that get into the paper. If you plan to make it to citizenship in an average job, then live off the dole, and you know that your children hate work, this country is your country. All others will have a hard time here and your children will learn to hide any intellectual abilities, as many parents in other forums have mentioned. But if your child is a sports buff and hates studying, NZ is a great country for you.

house buying or renting
If you rent or buy a house from a Kiwi, expect to pay double as much for something comparable in Europe or the US (in a comparably sized town, of course). Buying: everything under 400.000 (200.000 EUR) is unacceptable. No insulation, just a few planks nailed together, no heating. It's what you get as garden sheds in Europe. Prices went up and up in an winding spiral of people trying to get more for less over the last 20 years and are not coming down any more. Everyone entering the market for the first time, is the looser. Basically no Kiwi owns their home, because they are so expensive that they would have to pay two lifetimes to work them off (remember, Kiwis get about 40-50.000 on average, that is 20-30.000 EUR!). Rents are ridiculously high. Don't even start to look for places below 300 Dollar per week. What you see for 180 to 300 is usually next to railways stations (remember, no insulation, it's like living in a paper house), in bad neighborhoods, behind a laundromat, damp and moldy, trashed, or with kitchens and baths from the 70s, and no heating of course. If you have some savings and can start to build your own house right away, or within a few months, NZ is the place for you. All others from Europe or the US: the housing situation is the breaking point, because it can make your life unbearable. 


clean and green
Talking to forrest rangers usually reveals a big problems of Kiwis fishing in protected areas, leaving their garbage everywhere etc. Clean and green does apply to the national parks, but outside of them, expect to find trash everywhere. THere is not one single stretch of road without papers and beer bottles. Kiwis also like to chop down trees. Expect to see the old majestic trees disappear one by one in your neighborhood. After all, wood can be turned into money and Kiwis are too economically disadvantaged to have a real sense for the environment. For anyone without a green thumb, who cares more about the fish on the wood burning grill, than where it and the wood come from, NZ is the place for you


An important thing to remember: for people from India, China and other countries with severe economical problems, NZ offers more space for the money and is a definite improvement in quality of life. So anyone coming from a country with more poverty than NZ, NZ is a definite step up,. For all others, NZ is a step down. Despite the vast problems Europe and the US have, the quality of life is dramatically higher. To put things into perspective, pick a town with 3-400.000 people (Dunedin or Christchurch), and one with 1.8 m people (Auckland) and find something comparable in a nice location with national parks close by in Europe and the US. Chances are your quality of life there will be much higher than here, simply because of higher wages, more choice, cheaper prices and less quality-suppressing cultural attitude. 

I haven't talked about the other attributes here that make NZ a third world country, like the high crime and the social tensions between the Maori and the Whites. Or, what I touched on briefly: the rich-poor gap. So it really depends if the idea of living in a third world country excites you because of the possibilities and the still untouched nature and the ruggedness of the people, or if you need a culture of values on which you want to build your life. That makes or breaks your sense of attachment and belonging to. It's a mentality question. Obviously you have noticed in the way I write as to what mentality-tribe I belong to (not the Kiwi tribe), and since I was sold on something else by official bodies, that makes one feel a bit angry, but for people who love the Kiwi mentality, this is "the" place and I'm glad if you hang out here, because then I can hang out where you are not, and all can be happy.


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## jenswaters

> Most important: I think it's vital to know that NZ is a third world country


[/COLOR]

ARE YOU SERIOUS?!?!?!?! Do you KNOW what the definition of a Third World Contry is??? Having lived in a Third World Country for a number of years, I can assure you that NZ is NOT it.



> I haven't talked about the other attributes here that make NZ a third world country, like the high crime and the social tensions between the Maori and the Whites.


Forgive me for saying, but this seems alarmingly like the UK, and many other countries in the world too. There are tensions between varying ethnic groups and populations (as in many countries). By your definition, that makes the UK a Third World country also. Any country will have crime, and each country has it's own localised crime problems dependent upon a whole variety of things. When I lived in Trinidad, it was gang crime and traffic/car problems. Even in the Cayman Islands (NOT a Third World country), we experienced a huge problem with burglary throught the island.

At the end of the day, I respect your opinions and views, and think it is good that this forum allows us to share EVERY experience whether good or bad. Even if I don't agree with the things you say, it still gives me something to think about and remain in my head when making future decisions. I understand that you are angry, but I suggest that you really think about your definitions and examples when giving a strong label to a country.


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## pic

@jenswaters: You're right, based on official statistics in some government brochures, NZ might not be called third world. But I think for people moving here, this is still a fitting description that captures the essence of the place, because for immigrants, it's not about numbers and statistics, and not about who is "better", the "first" or "third" world, but about real information, so that people can make the right choice and not be tricked with false information (which NZ sadly distributes quite a bit of) into a false impression of what NZ is supposed to be like. 

I used the term 'third world" to express a feeling one gets of a place. How it's run, what talents are needed to succeed, (and which not), which people make it, which don't, etc. I remember some streets in San Francisco for example, that looked like nothing had been invested there since the 70s. And the latest riots in France of French Africans had elements of "third world". There are always third world things in every city of every country of the world, but overall, you don't get that particular third world feeling everywhere, when the bad elements are outweighed by the good stuff, which in NZ, they are not. 

Everyone who stayed in South America or Africa or Eastern Europe knows that particular feeling you get from walking the just a bit too much dilapidated streets, the just a bit too mask-like smiles on people's faces when they want to sell you something, the just a bit too poverty stricken way they live, the just a bit too low wages. It's a particular strong sense of something being just a bit too close to breakdown. A bit too much run by bribery and nepotism. A bit too much facade and nothing behind it. It's a global impression of the place, which some find exciting because they sense a certain freedom of rules and a possibility to make it without hard work. Others find this impression disturbing, because it always means that a large percentage of the population is artificially held poor for the benefit of a few, with all the desperation, corruption of values, abuse and neglect that goes along with it (which you usually don't notice as a tourist)

I think the description of "third world" country is an excellent image for NZ that really captures the essence of the place, even though the term might not be "accurate" based on statistics. And because most people who come here are made to believe that their skills are in demand and that doing a good job is what makes you succeed here (because that's what you got your visa for, right?), coming here and finding out that really only "whom you know" gets you the job is a bad wakeup call. And also how suddenly you are forced to life like your grand parents did. No heating, little choice in the stores, little salaries. It's a very big price to pay for the beautiful nature.

Whoever has read Charles Dickens and fellow writers from the time gets an idea of the kind of people that went "to the colonies" and founded the system we live in today in AU or NZ. We thought that the attitude Dickens describes would have worn off by now, but it is still very strong here. NZ is still a third world colony with a shiny facade. And I find it very important to tell skilled immigrants that their labour is not "in demand" here and that they will face fierce competition from Kiwis with 1/3 of their skills, and that people will mock them until they have "toughened up", which is a very unfair and cruel thing to see being done daily to many nice people. It's really unfair and even primitive. My explanation is, as I said, that I think a country needs to be able to afford kindness and decency. And Kiwis are just too desperately trying to keep up with the rest of the world right now. That might change one most Kiwis have regular heating in their houses, or earn more than the absolute beginners's salary in Europe. But for now, it's a very hard place under the friendly facade. 

@natmat: 3 months is probably not enough, but you'll see the Kiwi money fixation in action when you buy something from another Kiwi over trademe. Are you sure you didn't spend more money for your NZ house than for one in the UK in a comparable location? There is religious shopping in Auckland, from what I've seen.


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## topcat83

Hi Pic

Can I ask how long you lived in New Zealand for, and where?


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## sdh080

pic said:


> And because most people who come here are made to believe that their skills are in demand and that doing a good job is what makes you succeed here (because that's what you got your visa for, right?), *coming here and finding out that really only "whom you know" gets you the job is a bad wakeup call.* And also how suddenly you are forced to life like your grand parents did. No heating, little choice in the stores, little salaries. It's a very big price to pay for the beautiful nature.
> 
> That might change one most Kiwis have regular heating in their houses,* or earn more than the absolute beginners's salary in Europe.* But for now, it's a very hard place under the friendly facade.
> 
> @natmat: 3 months is probably not enough, but you'll see the Kiwi money fixation in action when you buy something from another Kiwi over trademe. *Are you sure you didn't spend more money for your NZ house than for one in the UK in a comparable location?* There is religious shopping in Auckland, from what I've seen.


I've highlighted some points in bold there that I'd like to address in order.

1) That's not a specifically NZ phenomenon, I've seen it happen in various countries across the world.

2) That's a rather sweeping generalisation and is maybe your own personal experience but that doesn't mean it's the same for everyone, I've outlined my personal situation above and it differs greatly from the picture you are trying to paint.

3) I don't know where in NZ and where in the UK you are comparing but for me, house prices in Auckland are certainly much favourable compared to equivalent cities in the UK and the salaries for "professional" jobs are pretty similar.

I'd also love to know the answer to the question that topcat83 has posted.


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## pic

I'd really like to give more details about where I live and what I do. And after all, I should be the one people listen to instead of ridicule. I'm one of the great immigrant cash cows. Brought thousands or Euro into the system, took 0 Dollars out and didn't even take someone's job away. All through worldwide contacts. But while government Kiwis bring in cash cows like me with the help of tweaked statistics, citizen Kiwis chase them away again in some misguided national activism, thinking it would save them jobs and repair the economy (the opposite is happening now, as more and more skilled people are leaving who otherwise would help bring the company back into the black)

A bad game, played with the lives of innocent, hardworking people who haven't done anything wrong. And when you speak up about it, you have to fear retaliation. Critics of the NZ information policy and moral standards experience classic extremism. While NZ advertises its great education system, many critical immigrants are face with Kiwis searching out critical forum posts in order to harass critics instead of discuss issues. Not something showing great education. I'm not saying this is happening here at the moment, but there could be some reading this with extremist tendencies, so I can't reveal any details about me. Kiwis make criticism a "the world is flat - no it's round" issue. Accepting the overwhelming facts versus your beliefs feels like having to give up your entire faith. Modern day believers accept that the earth is round, and still believe in God, but there are always some fanatics who choose the "take it as it is, or not at all" attitude. Many Kiwis show extremist tendencies when it comes to their culture, their identity as a nation and their political system. When faced with overwhelming facts, they often think that accepting the truth means having to give up all love and faith for your country. Accepting criticism seems to be synonym with destroying their own identity. As history has shown, the opposite is the case. Lying and pretending and living an idealistic dream destroys cultures. So that's the current situation. Immigrants are lured to NZ under false pretenses, and, once there, they are subjected to extremist attitudes and can't expect any decency, understanding, willingness to listen or even the kind of respect you should always show any human being. Sound a lot like a third world country to me.

I don't have the time right now to find examples, but in any NZ forum, you find stories of harassment of critics. Many even tell of Kiwis going out of their way to research addresses of critics to send them hate mails or visit them and throw insults at them. I read stories of police searching houses of immigrants and ceasing property for no reason, because of a family relation to an angry Kiwi. While you never know for sure which stories are true, there are simply way too many of them, to be all made up. 

Another thing you'll find plenty in forums is what people say about salaries. The overwhelming majority of salaries is: half of what you get in the US or Europe. 2/3rds, if you're lucky. Let's not discuss something that is so obvious and that you can read up in so many forums. But if you need another story to the thousands of others already out there, here is my experience: I was offered a job for about 80.000 Dollars. A good salary for NZ, but that's 40.000 EUR. I started by career more than a decade ago, with 30.000 US Dollars, so you can see what a major setback that would be, while everything, from appliances to food to clothes still costs me the same as I would pay in Europe today, often more. In Europe I could expect to get around 80-100.000 EUR. And the jogging shoe I buy there for 100 EUR costs me 200 Dollars here. Name one product that is really well made, that many people really want to have and that is made in NZ. It's all imported, and you always pay the Dollar or Euro price. Unless you get the Chinese imitations that break down after a year. You don't need a math degree to figure out what happens if you keep living like you did in Europe, but earn half. Either cut down your quality of life, or get poor. One or the other. 

So at the end of the day, if you allow yourself the luxury of honesty, of really daring to face the unfunny facts about the third world colony NZ, you can still appreciate the one thing this country has to offer: it's fantastic for nature tours. But you will stop the illusion and stop luring people here under false pretenses. Thats just plain wrong. Unfortunately there is no Den Haag where you could complain about it. It's just the usual "con under palm trees', but it's still wrong. 

Sorry for the long posts. It's a place to tell one's story, because, like I said it's not like anyone really listens to the cash cows, or cares what happens to them. We've been milked, and now we move on. That's all. But allow me one of those nasty Extremist-Kiwi remarks (and see how you feel about what immigrants get to hear daily): If you don't like it, don't read it.


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## topcat83

Sorry Pic - I couldn't find in your post anywhere where it told me how long you'd lived in New Zealand for, or where.

Did you ever live in New Zealand? Or just visit?


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## topcat83

One of our members, Pic, has some strong opinions about New Zealand. His posts are very detailed, but can be off-topic for the thread that they are in.

So in the interest of enabling the existing threads to continue to be used as they were intended, but because we don't want to lose Pic's interesting views, we've set up a new thread and moved his posts and the replies into it.

I don't believe that he's ever lived in New Zealand, but hopefully Pic will correct us if he has.


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## sdh080

pic said:


> Another thing you'll find plenty in forums is what people say about salaries.* The overwhelming majority of salaries is: half of what you get in the US or Europe. 2/3rds, if you're lucky.* Let's not discuss something that is so obvious and that you can read up in so many forums. But if you need another story to the thousands of others already out there, here is my experience: I was offered a job for about 80.000 Dollars. A good salary for NZ, but that's 40.000 EUR. I started by career more than a decade ago, with 30.000 US Dollars, so you can see what a major setback that would be, while everything, from appliances to food to clothes still costs me the same as I would pay in Europe today, often more. In Europe I could expect to get around 80-100.000 EUR. And the jogging shoe I buy there for 100 EUR costs me 200 Dollars here. Name one product that is really well made, that many people really want to have and that is made in NZ. It's all imported, and you always pay the Dollar or Euro price. Unless you get the Chinese imitations that break down after a year. You don't need a math degree to figure out what happens if you keep living like you did in Europe, but earn half. Either cut down your quality of life, or get poor. One or the other.


It's not true for everyone though, I know of two professions personally, teaching and accounting.

Teachers in NZ earn on a par with their UK counterparts, circa $70k/£30k, that's with 5-6 years experience.

Accountants are probably on par with most of the UK with the exception of London. $100k-120k/£50k, that's with 7-8 years experience.

Rental prices in Auckland are on a par with the UK, house prices are generally lower than the UK, try buying a 3-4 bedroomed house in most of the UK for the equivalent of $500k.

All I'm saying is that it's different for everyone and you can't paint a generic picture.


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## Story_book_love

God damn =/

I'm a skilled professional but my industry bore the brunt of the recession and as such will not be emigrating to NZ after reading this =/


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## Aimi

Oy, pic, as vitriolic as your posts are, it was great to read. I've been considering NZ for quite some time (still a top choice for graduate school if I don't go to med school). A lot of people I know talk about moving there as if it's the land of milk and honey. I read this with a mixture of bemusement as it sounds not unlike where I live in Vermont. Not to knock the whole state, but where I live sucks. It's hardly the liberal paradise some people make it out to be. It's beautiful but the people by and large do not seem to care about preserving the natural beauty (which is a huge tourist draw) and have built it up. Poverty is the highest in the state. Wages are super low, rent prices are no bargain, houses are falling apart with trash everywhere, the school system is terrible, meth addicts and property crime are unusually high for the area (though I've personally never felt unsafe) and it has the highest teen pregnancy rate in the northeast US. It's a poor rural area though and most people don't have access to higher education. It seems though that it's all about who you know everywhere though. I don't really know a single place where nepotism doesn't rule in business really. But I digress.
I am curious about what sort of field you're in and the area of NZ you're living in. That might help give me more perspective.


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## topcat83

Aimi said:


> Oy, pic, ....
> I am curious about what sort of field you're in and the area of NZ you're living in. That might help give me more perspective.


Aimi - I don't believe that Pic lives (or has ever lived) in NZ (he's just visited).


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## jojo

Its all "horses for course" this immigration lark!! I'm often quite bemused by those who seem desperate to move the England, I personally couldnt get out of the place quick enough, but nonetheless, there are people who it would suit just fine - we're all different and what some think of as horrendous, others will love. Its all about individual choices and preferences. Pic obviously didnt fit into NZ however long he was there, but that doesnt mean it is the same for everyone. He's posted his opinion, but it is only "his"!

Jo xxx


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## Symon1988

It only took about 5,000 words for Pic to say he didnt like NZ or whatever. Its all boils down to personal preference... i like nature better than built environment and living standards aren't an issue for me. Just personal Hygine and Health.


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## StrangerThanFiction

topcat83 said:


> Aimi - I don't believe that Pic lives (or has ever lived) in NZ (he's just visited).


Huh?? I've read all Pic's posts, and in them she (yes, she) has not only clearly stated that she is currently living in NZ, but she has also stated the exact length of time that she has lived here. So I'm trying to understand why you have posted this comment? Is this a challenge of her veracity, and if so will you also challenge me and my veracity if I state that I have lived in New Zealand for nearly 8 years, and that after I read Pic's posts in this thread, I actually was suspicious - until assured otherwise - that my own spouse might have joined up to this forum unbeknownst to me under the name of 'Pic' and written those posts, they were so close in almost every aspect she touched upon to my own experiences of living here? This was after, I might add, having first let my mind question for however brief a moment the possibility that I might have arisen from my bed in some state of semi-consciousness and written those posts myself.


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## debsnotdebbie

Whilst a little verbose I agree with some of the things PIC has to say.

NZ is not for everyone it has cost me an absolute fortune to find that out but fingers crossed a few years of earning the salary someone of my experience and qualifications (not reconginised in NZ) is paid in the UK I should hopefully repair the damaged bank balance and not have to spend my old age in poverty. 

England for all its faults is a wonderful place sometime you have to leave to appreciate exactly what it has to offer. Central heating, beautiful clothes, family, friends, easy access to europe at affordable prices, interesting absorbing work the list goes on and on. 

Life is very short PIC and wasting it being miserable is just wrong I wish you well in whatever you do


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## topcat83

StrangerThanFiction said:


> Huh?? I've read all Pic's posts, and in them she (yes, she) has not only clearly stated that she is currently living in NZ, but she has also stated the exact length of time that she has lived here. So I'm trying to understand why you have posted this comment? Is this a challenge of her veracity, and if so will you also challenge me and my veracity if I state that I have lived in New Zealand for nearly 8 years, and that after I read Pic's posts in this thread, I actually was suspicious - until assured otherwise - that my own spouse might have joined up to this forum unbeknownst to me under the name of 'Pic' and written those posts, they were so close in almost every aspect she touched upon to my own experiences of living here? This was after, I might add, having first let my mind question for however brief a moment the possibility that I might have arisen from my bed in some state of semi-consciousness and written those posts myself.


Hi there - sorry, I can't say I've spotted where Pic says that (s)he has ever lived here. Will be more than happy if Pic can confirm that again personally....


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## borderbear

*views on NZ, who it is for and the GDR*

Hi everyone,

been living here for over 4 years now and pic clearly is a very intelligent person who's observation correspond in many points with mine and that of many other immigrants.
(And strange that topcat didn't read the posts fully - either because they are too long or because of the old Kiwi way of firing before the other person finished their sentence - I think you know what I mean ;-) so take it in good humour, I think it is funny)

Now I have to give my 2 cents (or much more ;-), too.

You know that a lot of what he says is true because you certainly remember the reaction of the media and general public to an innocent blog of 2 Aussie immigrants. If you have read it (I did) you must agree that it was not hostile and the strongest comment was that "Rotorua smells as if someone let it rip big time" or along those lines. And I personally find that it stinks and don't feel aphrodised by it either. I found the reaction of the NZ public and the media unbelievable! These people were threatened to be killed etc. And after all this country has other problems than to have the media have this as a top topic for days. It just shows this problem pic and many others describe. I was shocked - I knew they were bad, but that bad... and humourless ;-)

Well, I for myself decided to stay for a little while longer and try to enjoy what I like and try to ignore the rest. 

My good pic here likened NZ to the DDR or GDR. And I think I should clarify some things as I have lived there. Some people have a few strange ideas about the GDR. (We sometimes make jokes that things are worse here than in the GDR ;-) but as we lived in that system we can also live in NZ's.)
- the standard of living in the GDR, e.g. concerning housing, was higher in the 70s and 80s than it is here now - Never before had I seen those 2 separate faucets for hot and cold water, the showers!, plumbing and electricity is pre-WWI, the world is selling its decades old appliances (ovens, heaters...) that they couldn't sell anywhere else (cash cows for old technology!), those gas heaters they have here are prohibited about anywhere else in the world, newly installed windows that are not really rainproof (was told that that is the way those metal windows are - no lazy excuse
I often get strange comments about me coming from the GDR. And I really don't know how they think we lived. But we generally had good heating, proper showers and washing basins etc. They somehow think that life was terrible because a lot of people lived in high rise apartment blocks. If you have ever been to one of those in NZ, you know why they are concerned. Those apartment blocks, even the new ones here, are of such bad quality as you couldn't imagine. It is like with many things here - they might look like apartment blocks elsewhere but are just of the most inferior quality you can - or better said - cannot imagine. That is the same with many things that are Kiwi made - they might at first look a lot like the real thing but just don't function the way. 

Why was the GDR so bad then? Main points:
-no freedom of speech 
-no freedom to travel wherever you want
-no freedom of religion

The first one is also oppressed in NZ - believe me, I am very sensitive to those things. If you want to read something a bit apart from the mainstream media have a look at North & South magazine - the only place with a bit of journalism which shows that not all Kiwis are lost. Other than that everything is mainstreamed and you have to read between the lines and make up your own mind through your observations. And be very careful what you say and to whom. All in all not unlike the GDR for that matter.

-also in common with NZ is the economy of scarcity - also a source of jokes for insiders

One might liken Kiwi mentality to that of people in a pub in the middle of nowhere. If you give it some thought, it shouldn't be a surprise as it is an island at the end of the world.

People who fit here best
-are the ones that like to drink a lot (BTW did you know that Wellington supposedly has the highest numbers of pubs per capita?) - drinking is heavier than in Finland (couldn't think of many friendlier people than the Finnish though ;-), getting drunk is the norm even at company dos
-don't care too much about the environment (people here might not even know that it is bad to wash there car on the road next to the ocean), - apart from the areas where no one lives air and water are very polluted (facts that recently made it even into the mainstream media! e.g. some of the world's most polluted rivers are in this country!, pollution and emissions per capita are higher now than in the US although there is no major industry here; they have among the most number of cars per capita of anywhere in the world)
-like the hunter and gather mentality (a dream of many is to fish and hunt to their hearts content - for others it is the depletion of natural resources), 
-don't have health problems (while the health care system is very cheap, it is also very basic with acute shortage of specialists, e.g. only 2 neurologists for the whole Wellington region incl. Wairarapa and Kapiti coast; so even if you have the money or best insurance in the world, some things are just not possible)
-can ignore problems and injustice
-know that not everything is gold that glitters and is able to accept that
-doesn't mind to be far away from anywhere
-doesn't need the latest inventions, gadgets, technologies
-doesn't mind that the thinking is a bit behind too (which is natural for an island country so far away - honestly)
-can accept that they want to invent the wheel themselves, even if it is square and wobbly - you have to accept that a product or service (or person or opinion) is always accepted on the merits of being Kiwi made or based (funny enough some of the brands that Kiwis think are iconic Kiwi brands are e.g. British but have good marketers who know their stuff and pretend to be all Kiwi and it works)
-are prepared to some amount of racism depending on where you are from (yes, they don't like Americans nor their accent etc. ;-)
-are aware that the culture is very male dominated and backwards in this respect (no idea how the women got the vote here first - a mystery ;-) - feminists or emancipated, successful women will inevitably have a hard time here - the average Kiwi bloke is very testosterone driven and sexual harassment is an accepted given on any day and accepted as normal (BTW famous Kiwi Pete Jackson gives testimony to this! He points out that he is lucky and enjoying to work with women as he finds the males usually very aggressive etc); even the so-called intelligence can surprise you after they had a few drinks - they can act like construction workers that didn't finish high school in many ways - for some man who come here that can be deliberating; also note that there are a lot of women looking for men as there is a scarcity here (I read somewhere that most of the female academics return from their OE but the male stay away, but most of the non-academic males return - draw your own conclusions from that ;-)
-are aware that crime might be worse than thought
-are aware that clean and green is just a marketing scam but don't mind
-are aware that you will age prematurely due to photoageing due to the highest UV rate anywhere apart from the south pole (I didn't know that - it much fiercer than in Australia which is known for its sun, but Aussies are much more aware of UV radiation as there are more people that spend a lot of time on the beach)
-can concentrate on the positives

A word on crime: little known is that NZ has the highest gang membership per capita (no, not including associates!), most of the gangs form organized crime networks making a lot of money from drugs, theft, robbery, burglary (often concentrated on non-Maori parts of the community; to be fair there are also the usual suspects like Hell's Angels and a bit of Asian drug dealing etc) - opposed to what topcat says the gangs don't keep to themselves with their violence etc (I have extensive personal experience with this) - they are racial extremists and prepared to use extreme violence - even unprovoked - against anyone
Police is aware of these problems but they don't know what to do about it. This is not discussed more extensively in the media as the government wants to be careful not to upset certain parts of the Maori community. Often underaged kids are used for certain crimes like burglaries which cannot be detained. To make things worse, some of those gangs are also recruiting PI youths directly from there islands which is a big concern for some people that can add 1 + 1 there. (I know this from very concerned PIs who see the big picture.) Sadly, whole whanau depend on crime.

What I cannot understand is how people from everywhere can just apply for a PR from afar and pack up all their things without ever having been here. Certainly, NZ has the best marketing of any country and they can really be proud of that as it brings a hell lot of money. If you seriously consider to leave your country behind for another, first come here and "try before your buy". Come with a suitcase, maybe on a short work permit or working holiday visa and live for a while in one of the major centers where the work is. (Yes, unfortunately the really nice places with the natural beauty usually don't have work for most people - and I find that living in the centers is unbelievably crowded for a country with so much space for its people. Someone once said that Auckland has all the disadvantages of a big city (e.g. traffic jams and pollution) without the advantages (vibrant cultural life or good public transport) and I think that this is very much to the point.
By all means come here and check NZ out to decide if it is for you or not.


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## borderbear

*my loong post continued*

As for natural beauty, there is any kind of landscape (even surprisingly unspoilt) and national parks of unbelievable beauty in the US. If you don't know that, you haven't been looking. Same applies to Europe. After all, NZ is not so much different to other places in the world landscape wise. If you travelled a lot you will have seen it before - mostly all of it. If you want something different, try Australia, they have great nature but don't tell anybody. 
If you travel NZ with open eyes you might be scared by the level of deforestation and the dry land and eroded hills. What I miss most personally, is real natural forest (bush). Sadly, there are only a few patches scattered here and there.

What I love most is the ocean and how blue it looks depending on the weather.
Diving or snorkelling here is amazing (if extremely cold!) even though you might taste or smell the pollution in the water (every swimmer knows that and sewage treatment is not very advanced either, you can check that out). There are so many activities that you can do if you have an ocean at your door step. Same is true in many other countries of course.

Work out what you want from a country and from life and than come here with realistic expectations other than the land of milk and honey. For some it is perfect, for some ok and for others their worst nightmare... (as seen from some posts)
Kiwis have their own unique mentality and you have to learn to deal with it. The way they are marketed is one thing - marketing that is, the way the are really another. Trying to fight it doesn't work...
Most important thing of all - don't lose your sense of humour, you will need it. Come here, make up your own mind .

OOH a VERY long post - but I hope it helps some! It is not meant to be negative, includes my subjective view in a serious way to make naive would be immigrants aware of possible issues.


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## borderbear

*one more thing about GDR and socialism*

I'm not sure if I read it in this thread or a different one. 

Someone likened NZ to the GDR writing in regards to the tall poppy syndrom and how everyone is supposed to be equal.

That has nothing to do with the system in the GDR or communist/socialist countries. In those societies competitiveness and striving to be the best was highly encouraged (and might have been your ticket to get out of the country or get other priviliges). Just remember how many exceptional sportsmen these countries had per capita! Same with some other things. 
This has nothing to do with NZ and how it celebrates mediocrity. If you really are great and talented, better be extremely humble about it - otherwise you will not fare well. And even if you are humble you might have to swallow a lot of things you don't like.

Also, NZ is definitely not very social or socialist for that part. Just remember that they unfortunately created a substantial gap between rich and poor through legislation mostly in regards to property. Same as in the GDR and the majority of other countries, the powerful and wealthy adjust things to suit themselves and their kind, leaving no cake to the poorer ******s (I liked pic's reference to Dickens, I have often used that myself in regards to governments). 
Socialism as such would be a good thing if it would work (I mean it in the way that you care for people that are less well off, sick or disabled, etc and don't concentrate on personal wealth but on growth as a society in an ethical way). There are many good ideas in the concept that would be better for the world. But people are unfortunately too greedy. Also, it doesn't work if you say e.g. "This factory belongs to the people" because in the end that is never true and if people don't have ownership of something they might not treat it as well. A good analogy to rental property here. For some reason it is not really "your" house while you rent it. You can't personalize it etc and there is no maintenance either. 

After all, there is too much greed in the world and only a very small number of people might spoil it for the rest... Not an NZ exclusive problem at all...


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## Rundle

topcat83 said:


> What can I say, Pic? That's obviously one point of view.
> 
> Let's look at it from the point of view of someone who was born in the country and has New Zealand citizenship (BTW, I am not a NZ citizen).
> 
> It's a global recession. People are being made redundant - including those who are in the country on work visas.
> 
> There are less jobs to go round. If there is a job going, am I more likely to give it to a New Zealander, or an immigrant?
> 
> If there is a person in the country on a work visa, but they can't find a job, then as a country what should we do? Give them social security pay-outs? Or send them home?
> 
> As difficult as it is, I think I know what the most likely answers are....


But people on temporary work permits don't get "payouts". These are migrants that are shelling out thousands of dollars on getting to NZ to find work (for which they are needed, otherwise they won't have got visas) and arrive to discover they've been duped and there is no work. Then there are all the migrants who have lost their jobs and are living in abject poverty whilst immigration decides their fate.

Who are the benefits going to? they're going to all the unemployed Kiwis who are returning home without a job, most of them haven't contributed to the NZ economy for years. Why should they be entitled to payouts?


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## Rundle

pic said:


> Hm, I guess I wrote myself into a hot frenzy there in "the worlds longest forum post". Nevertheless we just came back from a trip to one of the national parks (a word that means "protected land" in other countries). Again we were forced to rethink our decision to leave NZ, when looking at the breathtaking landscape. But then we saw that "national park" means "amusement park" in NZ, with 300 Ski Lifts on land that was donated by the Maori to be protected and cherished, not to be run to the ground with tourism. (I wonder who pockets the money that is made on the sacred mountains. The Maori chief who donated the land must turn in his grave with sad rage every winter season)
> 
> And to shorten the discussion about good versus bad comments: Your view onto NZ explains itself based on where you come from. If you come from Europe and the US, NZ is 2-3 grades down in job security, housing, democratic stability, safety and earning power. When you come from other countries, it is 2-10 grades up in all those aspects. I would bet that most of the positive posts were made by people originating from India, Asia, the former Soviet Union, South America, Eastern Europe, Africa and countries with similar political/economical/social conditions (or from people who live close to the bottom of the economic ladder in Europe or the US) No problem with NZ being at the lower end of democracy, if it wasn't for the falsified statistics and misleading brand image that NZ fabricates to trick international professionals into thinking they can find adequate work here. American Guy was clever and checked the facts personally before moving here. My husband and I, we just didn't think that a government would play with the asset of the hard working professionals that are the breadwinners of each country so carelessly. That still blows my mind, but it helps to see NZ as a third world country to understand how economic desperation drives a nation to exploit and then throw away the good people instead of using them to lift NZ out of poverty.
> 
> The heart wrenching aspect about New Zealand is that just the beauty of the landscape alone would justify living here, if new Zealanders wouldn't systematically destroy everything beautiful and turn the country into a trash-littered Trailer Park, which you have to look at every day as you drive through it to work or to the stores. And even if you found a still untouched piece of land, there would already be those ugly little sections, half filled with overpriced box houses that look like a dog sheds. You know, those houses where the bath tiles are put up on the outside (to hose down the house?) and where the top of the windows touch the roof (a design that takes the European traditional style and just saves a few inches of material resulting in this ridiculous caricature of a squashed wood cabin). Ironically, with that missing space above the windows it looks like the face of someone with a very low forehead.
> 
> And now people with countries that have been striped of all wood, fish, wildlife and other natural resources have discovered NZ and are in the process of consuming it up until there is nothing left. NZ is like a gigantic, mostly unprotected national conservation park and a little paradise for all who like to fish, hunt, camp and house-build the worlds ugliest houses, as if there was no tomorrow. For someone who doesn't give a damn, life is always easy and great, ESPECIALLY in New Zealand where one can safely harvest, cut down, run down, cover with concrete and litter with garbage. Of course these people would have only good things to say about NZ but I think I wouldn't have anything good to say about them.
> 
> It's not easy to leave NZ's natural beauty behind and we'll definitely be back, but not to work and live here, only as tourists, like all others who would have helped to push NZ to world standard but instead are pushed out by the mediocre and greedy who can now again be safely amongst themselves and continue to stew in their own juices.


A lot of what you say strikes a chord with me, thank you for putting it so very eloquently. I too can only see NZ as a tourism destination after living there for so many years. But I think that there are other places in the world that provide better value for money than NZ does.

You should make the most of all that conservation land the next time you visit because if Key and National have their way much of it will be mined for its mineral wealth soon. How can the minister for tourism even contemplate something that is diametrically opposed to the 100% pure image the country has so carefully cultivated? 

It's land grab madness that starts at neighborhood level on virtually every street in New Zealand. I'm talking about subdivison here. The Kiwi attitude to environmentalism starts with "hey we've got a garden. Let's build a house in it as close to the boundaries as we can" and it's all downhill from then on.


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## Tax Evader

pic said:


> ...But then we saw that "national park" means "amusement park" in NZ, with 300 Ski Lifts on land that was donated by the Maori to be protected and cherished, not to be run to the ground with tourism. ....


Wow where is this. It must be a huge area.


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## topcat83

Tax Evader said:


> Wow where is this. It must be a huge area.


I can't think of anywhere in NZ that would support 300 ski lifts 

There are, however, many national and regional parks, all over both islands. Generally they are very beautiful.


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## Tax Evader

Could it be that pic is full of BS? Say it ain't so.


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## topcat83

Tax Evader said:


> Could it be that pic is full of BS? Say it ain't so.


I am not commenting on the grounds I might give an answer that Pic doesn't like


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## pic

It's Mount Tongariro. Just drive up the easterly road and you'll find a sign advertising the 300 ski lifts located inside the so-called national park. We were there off season and the area was deserted, but you could see from the large parking lot in just this one resort (of which there apparently are others on the other side of the mountain), that they are handling large numbers of skiers in this whole area during winter season. I guess you haven't been to this particular area in NZ? We were shocked ourselves as we saw it and couldn't quite believe our eyes. 

Am sorry for you and the country, that sarcastic and aggressive 'us against the others' attitude is all that comes to your minds when you find yourself confronted with a money machine industry being set up right inside one of the most beautiful areas of the world. Almost as if you had some sort of monetary benefit from it yourself, that you are anxious to preserve. Or why else would one rather make (quite inappropriate and strangely extreme) personal remarks about critical observers than talk about the actual issue or at least read up on the area? 

Again an attitude that cements another stone in the wall between NZ and the rest of the civilized world.


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## Rundle

Thanks for that Pic, I was wondering where those lifts were.

The money making machine is ubiquitous isn't it. There isn't much that's unspoiled or free to access. 

NZ presents itself as something that's 100% Pure and untouched, but in reality it you want it, you pay for it. Not much is 'free'.

Al Morrison: Conservation makes good business sense - National - NZ Herald News

"Without commercial activities, nobody would get the chance to enjoy our unique outdoor spaces" Al Morrison, Director General Of DOC.

"There are currently over four and a half thousand concessions involving commercial activities across the country. These range from ski tours to stock grazing, from bungy jumping to beekeeping, from commercial filming to co-ordinating multi-sport events.

A large number involve the tourism and recreation industries, providing many of the outdoor activities and facilities that encourage both New Zealanders and overseas visitors to get out and enjoy the places that make this country so special.

Some are extremely well known - next month's Coast to Coast endurance race across the Southern Alps, the Ruapehu skifields in the middle of Tongariro National Park and whale watching off the Kaikoura Coast.

Other concessions involve small eco-tours in the Catlins, river rafting on the West Coast and kauri walks in Northland forests. The list is as varied as the industry is resourceful."

Just wait until they start mining it.


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## topcat83

pic said:


> It's Mount Tongariro. Just drive up the easterly road and you'll find a sign advertising the 300 ski lifts located inside the so-called national park. We were there off season and the area was deserted, but you could see from the large parking lot in just this one resort (of which there apparently are others on the other side of the mountain), that they are handling large numbers of skiers in this whole area during winter season. I guess you haven't been to this particular area in NZ? We were shocked ourselves as we saw it and couldn't quite believe our eyes.


Here's the link to the website for the ski-field you are talking about. http://www.newzealandnz.co.nz/ski-areas/whakapapa.html

And here's the bit about ski-lifts cut 'n' pasted...

_There are 23 lifts - 2 quad and 4 double, 4 T-Bars, as well as platters and learner’s lifts. The field has 30 groomed trails, ample off-piste terrain as well as tobogganing and tubing areas. Also a terrain park, skier/boarder cross course and ski school, plus an outstanding beginner’s area in Happy Valley. Six cafés and two bars provide snacks and meals. Knoll Ridge Chalet is the most elevated licensed restaurant in New Zealand._

That does not sound like 300 ski lifts to me


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## KiwiNomad

Thanks Top CAt, I was just searching the 'net for *ANY *skifield that 300 lifts *ANYWHERE*!


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## Rundle

Pic says he saw the sign. Could this be an example of false/misleading advertising?


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## topcat83

Rundle said:


> Pic says he saw the sign. Could this be an example of false/misleading advertising?


...on who's part? The ski field's or the reporters??


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## slim8589

While there is a lot of anger and disappointment in Pic's posts, sadly there is also a lot of truth. No doubt we could use the "lies, damn lies and statistics" approach to dissect some of the claims as with anyone but the comments certainly strike a chord.
We moved here 6 years ago from the UK and while I don't hate the place I do find the chip on the shoulder that kiwis have about NZ both hilarious and frustrating.
I think after 6 years you could say we have given the place a fair go. For us the good aspects and the bad have always been very finely balanced.
I describe NZ as Third World to my colleagues (I'm a teacher) just to wind them up but although I don't really believe it is truly Third World for there is a grain of truth there.
We will leave NZ later this year with some sadness and with fantastic memories but the call of family and real money (we are off to Qatar for 2 years) is too strong to keep us here.


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## Rundle

> ...on who's part? The ski field's or the reporters??



"aren't perceptions great" Topcat?


Does it_ really_ matter if there's 3, 30, or 300? Just look at all the development there is.

You gave details of_ one_ of the ski fields there:

"There are* 23 lifts *- 2 quad and 4 double, 4 T-Bars, as well as platters and learner’s lifts. The field has *30 groomed trails*, *ample off-piste terrain* as well as *tobogganing *and* tubing areas*. Also a* terrain park, skier/boarder cross course and ski school*, plus an *outstanding beginner’s area in Happy Valley*.* Six cafés and two bars* provide snacks and meals. Knoll Ridge Chalet is *the most elevated licensed restaurant* in New Zealand.

Heck, even Snowdon doesn't have that much.

The Tongariro National Park is an UNESCO World Heritage Heritage Site and contains sites of great significance to local Maori. 

Ngati Tuwharetoa gifted the central part of the park to the Crown to prevent exploitation of the mountains by European Settlers and look what it's like now - a theme park, one step away from kiss me quick hats and donkey rides down the mountain.


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## Rundle

slim8589 said:


> While there is a lot of anger and disappointment in Pic's posts, sadly there is also a lot of truth. No doubt we could use the "lies, damn lies and statistics" approach to dissect some of the claims as with anyone but the comments certainly strike a chord.
> We moved here 6 years ago from the UK and while I don't hate the place I do find the chip on the shoulder that kiwis have about NZ both hilarious and frustrating.
> I think after 6 years you could say we have given the place a fair go. For us the good aspects and the bad have always been very finely balanced.
> I describe NZ as Third World to my colleagues (I'm a teacher) just to wind them up but although I don't really believe it is truly Third World for there is a grain of truth there.
> We will leave NZ later this year with some sadness and with fantastic memories but the call of family and real money (we are off to Qatar for 2 years) is too strong to keep us here.


I call it "developing world" which is probably more accurate. Good luck with Qatar and first world living.


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## Guest

Rundle said:


> "aren't perceptions great" Topcat?
> 
> 
> Does it_ really_ matter if there's 3, 30, or 300? Just look at all the development there is.
> 
> You gave details of_ one_ of the ski fields there:
> 
> "There are* 23 lifts *- 2 quad and 4 double, 4 T-Bars, as well as platters and learner’s lifts. The field has *30 groomed trails*, *ample off-piste terrain* as well as *tobogganing *and* tubing areas*. Also a* terrain park, skier/boarder cross course and ski school*, plus an *outstanding beginner’s area in Happy Valley*.* Six cafés and two bars* provide snacks and meals. Knoll Ridge Chalet is *the most elevated licensed restaurant* in New Zealand.
> 
> Heck, even Snowdon doesn't have that much.
> 
> The Tongariro National Park is an UNESCO World Heritage Heritage Site and contains sites of great significance to local Maori.
> 
> Ngati Tuwharetoa gifted the central part of the park to the Crown to prevent exploitation of the mountains by European Settlers and look what it's like now - a theme park, one step away from kiss me quick hats and donkey rides down the mountain.


Just to chip in on the skiing aspect, the number of lifts does make a rather significant difference, as it reflects the size of the developed ski area. A ski area with 300 lifts would be the world's largest by some distance, beating the current titleholder, France's linked 3 Valleys in the Savoie Alps with its 600 kilometres of runs and 196 lifts into a pathetic second place. Were the 3 Valleys (Courchevel, Meribel, Menuires and Val Thorens resorts combined) to link up with another in the world's top ten, the nearby Espace Killy (Val d'Isere and Tignes), with its 300 kilometres of pistes and 94 lifts, despite the combined 900 kilometres of runs and 290 ski lifts, it would still fail to reclaim the top spot.

My daughter trained for some six months in total at South Island resorts. Some great little ski areas, but hardly on the French Alps scale. The largest resort in NZ is Whakapapa/Turoa, with a total of 23 lifts (if you include a learner tow rope and a learner conveyer)... Pretty small really, in ski resort terms.


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## pic

Now I wish I had taken a photo of the sign and remembered its exact location, just to end this childish discussion about numbers. But who can guess that I would find myself one day in a forum with people who are actually more interested in pseudo-objective number discussion than in the actual problem staring you right in the face. LIke someone arguing about the number of furniture pieces while the house is on fire.

Usually I have a memory capable of accurately preserving a variety of numbers, and I'm pretty sure I saw that sign with that specific number. If I remember correctly I also only saw not more than a handful of roads on the eastern flank of the mountain, all ending in a dead end of some kind. Changes are one day someone else will see the sign on one of those roads. But if you misuse information to confirm a tilted world view, it makes no difference what the target of your information policy is. It's my sign observation today, and someone else's observation tomorrow. Makes no difference.

Meanwhile I have left the country as well, of course, as all people who are not in denial eventually do. And that's a good thing. At least it keeps a large number of people with objectivity problems nicely tucked away in a remote location. It's good to know that they are there in their self-inflicted isolation (both bodily and mentally). Its a tragedy they will ruin a great country in the process but there is no Den Haag for destruction of nature and bullying of witnesses. 

PS: and just a few words about moving my posts out of context into this "special" thread. This is called censorship and a lot of more qualified editors have tried their hands on it and failed, not to mention questionable political leaders. Censorship is never a good idea, especially not in a run-of-the mill forum without profile, voice, message or professionally trained editors. But I guess censorship is just one more element in the "special" kind of democracy NZ has. And since I am already in the post ghetto they made for me, I guess I can "stray" from the subject once more, now that I'm here. Where else can they put my posts? Post isolation camp? I think they don't have the balls for complete erasure just yet, but their working their way towards it, one censorship at a time. 

I am glad to be back in Europe and have learned to appreciate all the hundreds of civilized elements I took for granted before I left. Pew, almost got caught by a bunch of crooks on an island. But I got out and salute all that manage the same. Save your money for it. It"s definitely worth it. You'll see.


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## Guest

I think you'll find that you are in a forum where people are interested in the truth, and off the cuff comments such as the one referring to the number of ski lifts, when blatantly false, are likely to give people cause for doubt as to the accuracy of your other points.

If you think France is the centre of the civilised world, then I think you are in need of a reality check! (I'm assuming you are from France, that is what you have flagged up). France and the rest of Europe has all manner of problems, ranging from growing unemployment to racism to environmental concerns to increasing economic hardship, as business and industry are struggling, and in many cases, failing, to cope.

You need to look up the definition of censorship. It implies that you are being, or have been, stopped from putting your opinions across. On the contrary, you have not.

However labelling an entire nation as a bunch of crooks is inflammatory, unfounded, and clearly untrue. This kind of stirring isn't going to endear you to the moderator team. There is nothing wrong with balanced, constructive criticism, backed by sensible argument and evidence. It would be a good idea if you were to try this approach instead. Fits of pique... or 'pic' ... aren't very convincing.


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## Rundle

*Pic*

This thread got way off topic didn't it?

Pic do you mind me asking why you're still living in New Zealand?

Please don't take that in the wrong way, it's not a "if you don't like it then leave" comment because that's not how it's intended.


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## NZsHome

Wow - that was quite depressing reading. I didn't realise people thought so negatively of NZ. I love this country and always will consider it home. I am Māori myself and as such, have a spiritual tie to this land (something which Pic doesn't seem to understand perhaps?) Anyway, yes NZ has it's faults, but so does every country. I know I would much rather live here where my biggest threat of war comes from the neighbourhood kids playing cops and robbers on the street than somewhere that faces real issues of terrorism, war and poverty. Granted, money isn't the best (hence heading to the UAE for a llittle while) but for most of us kiwis, it's home and couldn't be replaced. As for where does Pic live, or where (s)he lived....my guess is Auckland ;-)


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## topcat83

NZsHome said:


> Wow - that was quite depressing reading. I didn't realise people thought so negatively of NZ. I love this country and always will consider it home. I am Māori myself and as such, have a spiritual tie to this land (something which Pic doesn't seem to understand perhaps?) Anyway, yes NZ has it's faults, but so does every country. I know I would much rather live here where my biggest threat of war comes from the neighbourhood kids playing cops and robbers on the street than somewhere that faces real issues of terrorism, war and poverty. Granted, money isn't the best (hence heading to the UAE for a llittle while) but for most of us kiwis, it's home and couldn't be replaced. As for where does Pic live, or where (s)he lived....my guess is Auckland ;-)


Hi NZsHome.
Most of us don't think so negatively - but some choose to only see the negative. I'd say to anyone reading this to listen to the people with a balanced view - not those that can only see bad in a country they don't even live in any more.

I love NZ, and have done since I was 16 and visited it for the first time. It doesn't stop me seeing its faults, but I hope it allows me (unlike some) to give a balanced view.


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## slim8589

By all means move this somewhere else but I thought some of you might like to mood lightened a little so I'll post something I posted on one of the other forums. It kind of fits in with the topic, but hopefully people will recognise it as slightly tongue in cheek.

Part 1

I suppose I should preface this with a clear statement that

I DON’T HATE NEW ZEALAND.

There we go, got that out of the way. 

Experience of forums (and of life in NZ) has shown that the moment you make any negative comments about NZ you tend to get very strong reactions. So if you are one of those people who thinks that NZ is perfect then please don’t bother to read on. Also if you are one of those other people who trots out the line that NZ has its problems but then still gets very touchy about any sort of criticism then again this is not the thread for you.

On the other hand if you are willing to accept that what I am writing is written from my own unique point of view and is no more seditious that having a good old moan to your mates at the pub then you are safe. You may not agree with what I have to say, but with Easter being over let’s save the crucifixions for another time shall we? (And now I’ve managed to offend the Christians among us, will I never learn?)

So why are we leaving NZ and is it really that bad?
The short answers are 1. Lots of reasons and 2. No

We came here in 2004, sparked into action by the numerous reality TV shows that featured half-wits making a new life in a new country having taken with them only a swimming costume, a packet of **** and a complete lack of understanding of what they were getting themselves into. “If they can make a mess of it”, I thought to myself, “then so can I”.

We made that decision at Christmas and by July we were on our way, having secured a teaching job in New Plymouth and sold our house on the South Coast.

No matter what anyone says it is a culture shock, perhaps best demonstrated by the ‘Biscuit Aisle Incident’ as we like to call it. Can there be anything more depressing in those first few weeks than standing in the Biscuit Aisle of your local Woolworths unable to recognise a single biscuit and ultimately coming away dejected and empty-handed?

Actually there are more depressing things than that. Checking your bank balance during the immigration process would qualify. Having paid vast amounts to Immigration New Zealand for them to glance at our forms and issue us with stickers, we should have been prepared. But we weren’t. From the “little Hitler’ at customs to the rental agent, everybody who looked at us suddenly had spinning dollar signs in their eyes. Don’t for a moment imagine that that little sticker in your passport is the last time the immigration department will try to squeeze money out of you, oh no. Forget opening a bank account it would save time to have your wages paid direct to them.

So as we huddled, blue lipped, in our rental we did rather wonder what we had done and how we would afford crisps and chocolate to keep the kids alive.

But, as time passed, we settled into life here and enjoyed the space, the safety, the beaches and I even tried a pie once. 

One reason for coming had been to give our kids a childhood more like our own, not the rickets and playing on a bombsite aspect (to be fair I was born in 1967, but I did grow up in Essex so both were available). More the endless summers playing safely in the park and not having to worry whether Mr Peter File had moved into the area.

And that is exactly what my kids have had. It has been excellent for them. They have both really got into sport, one of them representing Taranaki. Actually that is not as big a thing as it sounds since it seems that just about every kid here has represented Taranaki in some sport or other, as the woman I met on the street the other day illustrates

“My son is a Taranaki Pukeko-Wrangling Rep, he’s been wrangling since he was knee-high to a Weta, we’re very proud. Would you like to buy half a hundred weight of over-priced chocolate to help pay for his trip to Dunedin next month for the Nationals, we are half way to raising the $10,000 needed for an internal flight.”

For us though, NZ has been a mixed bag. Imagine a set of scales on one side filled with Walkers crisps, on the other a mixture of Arnotts Shapes, Grain Waves and Delisio crisps - fairly evenly balanced.

And even though we have finally made the decision to leave, the scales have not exactly come crashing down on the Walkers side.


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## slim8589

Part 2

So here are my top 10 gripes about NZ, all of which have in some way contributed to the scales tipping.

1 - NZ is just too far away - Actually that is one of the benefits of living here too. Let’s face it if you are a terrorist you are hardly going to endure a 24 hour flight just to blow something up in a country many people can’t even find on a map. Besides, if they did want to come here and blow up the Beehive - and who could blame them - I doubt most suicide bombers could come up with the cash for the flight, it’s cheaper to buy a small Caribbean island. We were naive. We underestimated how much we would miss our family and at the same time we thought we’d be able to easily afford flights back every couple of years. $15,000 on flights last year put paid to that idea. Money that could have been spent on the house instead paid for 24 hours of discomfort and a faux MacDonalds MacMuffin from the sullen Virgin stewards.

2 - NZ is just too far away - “Hang on a minute,” you’re thinking, “he’s already done that one!” But hold on, what I’m talking about is the fact that the only options for holidays outside of NZ are Fiji and Samoa (pronounced Sar-moa apparently, not by me though). I know it will upset people who will argue that I can’t knock them if I haven’t been but they just don’t appeal to me. Beach type holidays never have. Still we could go to OZ. Except that I looked at flights to Brisbane a couple of weeks ago and the cheapest single fare I could find was $930. That’s right $930 for one person. Too much, enough said.

3 - NZ is too big - Ridiculous of course, I mean the reason you move here is because the UK is so overcrowded, with 75 people for every Tesco Pork Pie or some other pointless statistic. It is great that there is so much space and it really works for some people. But when you live 5 drive hours from anywhere it can be seen as both a good thing and an unholy nightmare of isolation. I’ll let you guess which it is for us.

4 - NZ is too small - “Oh for goodness sake”, you’re screaming, “make up your mind!” But NZ is too small in the sense of its economy. With no appreciable manufacturing industry - if you discount the Eco bags that Trelise Cooper is knocking out for the supermarkets - then it stands to reason pretty much everything has to be imported, and you know what that means, China. The tiny economy affects everything. You would think milk would be cheap because it is produced here but because we sell it to the rest of the world we have to pay market price here. Many of us have found that it is cheaper to buy books and CDs on Amazon and pay the postage to have it sent here than to go to the local bookshop, I kid you not. And I can’t bear the way that everything here from clothes to furniture seems to fit into either the so cheap that it has fallen apart before you have left the carpark or the so expensive that you’ll need to sell an internal organ to finance it. Where is the mid-ground?

5 - Kiwis with chips on their shoulders - and their heads up their arses. It’s ok, some of my best friends are kiwis. Let’s face it though Kiwis are not the only nation in the world who have demonstrated ingenuity from time to time but if I hear that phrase on the 6pm news one more time I will stick my foot right through the plasma! Boy did I laugh when they chose ‘Right Here, Right Now’ to promote the Rugby World Cup. Before I even had a chance to crow to my kiwi mates I was drowned out by the righteous indignation on every NZ media site as every kiwi in the land became apoplectic at the choice of a ‘pom’ song. The final nail in the shoulder borne chip came on Close Up when some unheard of kiwi poet worked himself up into a lather about it, describing the song as “stupid” and demanding Dave Dobbyn’s ‘Loyal’ dirge be dragged out for yet another outing. I’m not sure what irritated me more, writing off another song like that as if only kiwis can write songs or the endless fawning over the potato-headed midget Dobbyn.

6 - The weather - Actually the weather here is fine. It’s the people who spare no opportunity to say “Must be just like being back home” every time it rains. For the record it rains 40% more here in New Plymouth than it did/does in Gosport.

7 - The food - Yes the food is good here. And I quite like that fact that it is more seasonal. The shelves of the supermarket are not crammed full of ready meals and as a result we cook from scratch much more than we ever did in the UK. “What’s the problem?” I hear you say. Well first of all it is too expensive (see point 4). Secondly I get confused sometimes, is my wife a leper or a vegetarian? They way she gets treated sometimes makes it difficult to tell. Here in the farming heartland she’s get a more friendly welcome if she turned up wearing jackboots and a swastika. And no, using a different pair of tongs but cooking the food on the same BBQ is not acceptable. Finally, guess which country has the second most MacDonalds outlets (I won’t dignify them with the word restaurant) in the world? I rest my case.

8 - The All Blacks/Valerie Villi/Sarah Ulmer/ The Evers-Swindell sisters etc - One word, tiresome.

9 - Maori ‘Culture’ - “Oh my God you are not going to have a go at the Maoris surely? Are you a cultureless yob?” It’s not a popular point of view but I truthfully find Maori Culture just a little bit boring. That in itself is fine, each to their own. What drives me nuts is the way it is forced down my throat at every opportunity. The Haka long since lost its power and ability to give me goosebumps after about the 100,000 time. Is it really appropriate to use the Haka when they open a supermarket or somebody changes a tire? Poi? Spare me, please. The bi-cultural of NZ is quite disappointing, separate health systems, separate education systems, protected council and government seats, the foreshore and seabed controversy. I do feel that for this country to really grow it is time to move on . But then I’m an immigrant so what right do I have to say any of this? Hang on, are the Maori indigenous, or did they just get here first?

10 - The Green/safe myth - Since living here we have been burgled and had our car broken into. Neither happened to us in the UK. In fact if you go online and look at the statistics per capita it is no safer here. Nationmaster.com offers plenty of stats, here’s just one.  Rape #12 New Zealand - 0.213383 per 1,000 people #13 United Kingdom - 0.142172 per 1,000 people  As for green? Don’t make me laugh. Walk to the shop? Not me I’m a kiwi and I expect to be able to park less than 2m away from the entrance otherwise I will drive round and round the block until there is a space free, all the while leaving a trail of fast food wrapping behind me.

11 - The swearing - for f***s sake what is it with all the b****y swearing? I s**t you not these w**kers can’t stop themselves! Every time I turn on the radio with the kids in the car I have to reach for the volume control every other minute, it’s like listening to the world service fading in and out. Since when is it acceptable to call your company FussyBuggas?

Yes I know that makes 11. And yes I know it will draw all the freaks out of the woodwork, and they’ll be shouting at me telling me that if I don’t like it why don’t I go home. New Zealand is fantastic and even if it is not how dare I criticise it?
But those are just my thoughts. I make no apology, it is how I feel.
We are renting our house out while we go to the middle east and who knows maybe we’ll come back. If this experience has taught me one thing it’s never say never. Although if I never have to sit through ‘Once Were Warriors’ again it will be too soon.


----------



## topcat83

slim8589 said:


> By all means move this somewhere else but I thought some of you might like to mood lightened a little so I'll post something I posted on one of the other forums. It kind of fits in with the topic, but hopefully people will recognise it as slightly tongue in cheek.
> 
> Part 1
> 
> I suppose I should preface this with a clear statement that
> 
> I DON’T HATE NEW ZEALAND.
> 
> There we go, got that out of the way.
> 
> Experience of forums (and of life in NZ) has shown that the moment you make any negative comments about NZ you tend to get very strong reactions. So if you are one of those people who thinks that NZ is perfect then please don’t bother to read on. Also if you are one of those other people who trots out the line that NZ has its problems but then still gets very touchy about any sort of criticism then again this is not the thread for you.
> 
> On the other hand if you are willing to accept that what I am writing is written from my own unique point of view and is no more seditious that having a good old moan to your mates at the pub then you are safe. You may not agree with what I have to say, but with Easter being over let’s save the crucifixions for another time shall we? (And now I’ve managed to offend the Christians among us, will I never learn?)
> 
> So why are we leaving NZ and is it really that bad?
> The short answers are 1. Lots of reasons and 2. No
> 
> We came here in 2004, sparked into action by the numerous reality TV shows that featured half-wits making a new life in a new country having taken with them only a swimming costume, a packet of **** and a complete lack of understanding of what they were getting themselves into. “If they can make a mess of it”, I thought to myself, “then so can I”.
> 
> We made that decision at Christmas and by July we were on our way, having secured a teaching job in New Plymouth and sold our house on the South Coast.
> 
> No matter what anyone says it is a culture shock, perhaps best demonstrated by the ‘Biscuit Aisle Incident’ as we like to call it. Can there be anything more depressing in those first few weeks than standing in the Biscuit Aisle of your local Woolworths unable to recognise a single biscuit and ultimately coming away dejected and empty-handed?
> 
> Actually there are more depressing things than that. Checking your bank balance during the immigration process would qualify. Having paid vast amounts to Immigration New Zealand for them to glance at our forms and issue us with stickers, we should have been prepared. But we weren’t. From the “little Hitler’ at customs to the rental agent, everybody who looked at us suddenly had spinning dollar signs in their eyes. Don’t for a moment imagine that that little sticker in your passport is the last time the immigration department will try to squeeze money out of you, oh no. Forget opening a bank account it would save time to have your wages paid direct to them.
> 
> So as we huddled, blue lipped, in our rental we did rather wonder what we had done and how we would afford crisps and chocolate to keep the kids alive.
> 
> But, as time passed, we settled into life here and enjoyed the space, the safety, the beaches and I even tried a pie once.
> 
> One reason for coming had been to give our kids a childhood more like our own, not the rickets and playing on a bombsite aspect (to be fair I was born in 1967, but I did grow up in Essex so both were available). More the endless summers playing safely in the park and not having to worry whether Mr Peter File had moved into the area.
> 
> And that is exactly what my kids have had. It has been excellent for them. They have both really got into sport, one of them representing Taranaki. Actually that is not as big a thing as it sounds since it seems that just about every kid here has represented Taranaki in some sport or other, as the woman I met on the street the other day illustrates
> 
> “My son is a Taranaki Pukeko-Wrangling Rep, he’s been wrangling since he was knee-high to a Weta, we’re very proud. Would you like to buy half a hundred weight of over-priced chocolate to help pay for his trip to Dunedin next month for the Nationals, we are half way to raising the $10,000 needed for an internal flight.”
> 
> For us though, NZ has been a mixed bag. Imagine a set of scales on one side filled with Walkers crisps, on the other a mixture of Arnotts Shapes, Grain Waves and Delisio crisps - fairly evenly balanced.
> 
> And even though we have finally made the decision to leave, the scales have not exactly come crashing down on the Walkers side.


Hey Slim - great post! And represents (tongue in cheek) many of the things we've found here too. 

And I miss Walkers cheese and onion crisps and Curly Wurlies!

Just getting round to reading part 2.....


----------



## Pepperpot

topcat83 said:


> Hey Slim - great post! And represents (tongue in cheek) many of the things we've found here too.
> 
> And I miss Walkers cheese and onion crisps and Curly Wurlies!
> 
> Just getting round to reading part 2.....


yes, I agree great post. Only things that worried me were crime and expensive food, but thats in many ways the same here in U.K. I am expecting things to be different, otherwise I wouldn't be going.


----------



## topcat83

Pepperpot said:


> yes, I agree great post. Only things that worried me were crime and expensive food, but thats in many ways the same here in U.K. I am expecting things to be different, otherwise I wouldn't be going.


Hi Pepperpot

I think crime is a subject that all sensible people should be concerned about. And NZ isn't immune to crime. To get an idea of the kinds of things that do go on, I'd check out NZ Herald: New Zealand's Latest News, Business, Sport, Weather, Travel, Technology, Entertainment, Politics, Finance, Health, Environment and Science on a regular basis. This will report any reasonably big incidents of crime - and other not-so-big bits too. Usually because they haven't found anything bigger to report  We've found some of the 'front page' newspaper articles quite amusing!

Our tip - check out the area before buying, and don't join a gang. Most crime is within or between gangs - and outside of these gangs then crime is relatively low.


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## sdh080

slim8589 said:


> Part 2
> 
> So here are my top 10 gripes about NZ, all of which have in some way contributed to the scales tipping.
> 
> 1 - NZ is just too far away - Actually that is one of the benefits of living here too. Let’s face it if you are a terrorist you are hardly going to endure a 24 hour flight just to blow something up in a country many people can’t even find on a map. Besides, if they did want to come here and blow up the Beehive - and who could blame them - I doubt most suicide bombers could come up with the cash for the flight, it’s cheaper to buy a small Caribbean island. We were naive. We underestimated how much we would miss our family and at the same time we thought we’d be able to easily afford flights back every couple of years. $15,000 on flights last year put paid to that idea. Money that could have been spent on the house instead paid for 24 hours of discomfort and a faux MacDonalds MacMuffin from the sullen Virgin stewards.
> 
> 2 - NZ is just too far away - “Hang on a minute,” you’re thinking, “he’s already done that one!” But hold on, what I’m talking about is the fact that the only options for holidays outside of NZ are Fiji and Samoa (pronounced Sar-moa apparently, not by me though). I know it will upset people who will argue that I can’t knock them if I haven’t been but they just don’t appeal to me. Beach type holidays never have. Still we could go to OZ. Except that I looked at flights to Brisbane a couple of weeks ago and the cheapest single fare I could find was $930. That’s right $930 for one person. Too much, enough said.
> 
> 3 - NZ is too big - Ridiculous of course, I mean the reason you move here is because the UK is so overcrowded, with 75 people for every Tesco Pork Pie or some other pointless statistic. It is great that there is so much space and it really works for some people. But when you live 5 drive hours from anywhere it can be seen as both a good thing and an unholy nightmare of isolation. I’ll let you guess which it is for us.
> 
> 4 - NZ is too small - “Oh for goodness sake”, you’re screaming, “make up your mind!” But NZ is too small in the sense of its economy. With no appreciable manufacturing industry - if you discount the Eco bags that Trelise Cooper is knocking out for the supermarkets - then it stands to reason pretty much everything has to be imported, and you know what that means, China. The tiny economy affects everything. You would think milk would be cheap because it is produced here but because we sell it to the rest of the world we have to pay market price here. Many of us have found that it is cheaper to buy books and CDs on Amazon and pay the postage to have it sent here than to go to the local bookshop, I kid you not. And I can’t bear the way that everything here from clothes to furniture seems to fit into either the so cheap that it has fallen apart before you have left the carpark or the so expensive that you’ll need to sell an internal organ to finance it. Where is the mid-ground?
> 
> 5 - Kiwis with chips on their shoulders - and their heads up their arses. It’s ok, some of my best friends are kiwis. Let’s face it though Kiwis are not the only nation in the world who have demonstrated ingenuity from time to time but if I hear that phrase on the 6pm news one more time I will stick my foot right through the plasma! Boy did I laugh when they chose ‘Right Here, Right Now’ to promote the Rugby World Cup. Before I even had a chance to crow to my kiwi mates I was drowned out by the righteous indignation on every NZ media site as every kiwi in the land became apoplectic at the choice of a ‘pom’ song. The final nail in the shoulder borne chip came on Close Up when some unheard of kiwi poet worked himself up into a lather about it, describing the song as “stupid” and demanding Dave Dobbyn’s ‘Loyal’ dirge be dragged out for yet another outing. I’m not sure what irritated me more, writing off another song like that as if only kiwis can write songs or the endless fawning over the potato-headed midget Dobbyn.
> 
> 6 - The weather - Actually the weather here is fine. It’s the people who spare no opportunity to say “Must be just like being back home” every time it rains. For the record it rains 40% more here in New Plymouth than it did/does in Gosport.
> 
> 7 - The food - Yes the food is good here. And I quite like that fact that it is more seasonal. The shelves of the supermarket are not crammed full of ready meals and as a result we cook from scratch much more than we ever did in the UK. “What’s the problem?” I hear you say. Well first of all it is too expensive (see point 4). Secondly I get confused sometimes, is my wife a leper or a vegetarian? They way she gets treated sometimes makes it difficult to tell. Here in the farming heartland she’s get a more friendly welcome if she turned up wearing jackboots and a swastika. And no, using a different pair of tongs but cooking the food on the same BBQ is not acceptable. Finally, guess which country has the second most MacDonalds outlets (I won’t dignify them with the word restaurant) in the world? I rest my case.
> 
> 8 - The All Blacks/Valerie Villi/Sarah Ulmer/ The Evers-Swindell sisters etc - One word, tiresome.
> 
> 9 - Maori ‘Culture’ - “Oh my God you are not going to have a go at the Maoris surely? Are you a cultureless yob?” It’s not a popular point of view but I truthfully find Maori Culture just a little bit boring. That in itself is fine, each to their own. What drives me nuts is the way it is forced down my throat at every opportunity. The Haka long since lost its power and ability to give me goosebumps after about the 100,000 time. Is it really appropriate to use the Haka when they open a supermarket or somebody changes a tire? Poi? Spare me, please. The bi-cultural of NZ is quite disappointing, separate health systems, separate education systems, protected council and government seats, the foreshore and seabed controversy. I do feel that for this country to really grow it is time to move on . But then I’m an immigrant so what right do I have to say any of this? Hang on, are the Maori indigenous, or did they just get here first?
> 
> 10 - The Green/safe myth - Since living here we have been burgled and had our car broken into. Neither happened to us in the UK. In fact if you go online and look at the statistics per capita it is no safer here. Nationmaster.com offers plenty of stats, here’s just one.  Rape #12 New Zealand - 0.213383 per 1,000 people #13 United Kingdom - 0.142172 per 1,000 people  As for green? Don’t make me laugh. Walk to the shop? Not me I’m a kiwi and I expect to be able to park less than 2m away from the entrance otherwise I will drive round and round the block until there is a space free, all the while leaving a trail of fast food wrapping behind me.
> 
> 11 - The swearing - for f***s sake what is it with all the b****y swearing? I s**t you not these w**kers can’t stop themselves! Every time I turn on the radio with the kids in the car I have to reach for the volume control every other minute, it’s like listening to the world service fading in and out. Since when is it acceptable to call your company FussyBuggas?
> 
> Yes I know that makes 11. And yes I know it will draw all the freaks out of the woodwork, and they’ll be shouting at me telling me that if I don’t like it why don’t I go home. New Zealand is fantastic and even if it is not how dare I criticise it?
> But those are just my thoughts. I make no apology, it is how I feel.
> *We are renting our house out while we go to the middle east and who knows maybe we’ll come back. If this experience has taught me one thing it’s never say never.* Although if I never have to sit through ‘Once Were Warriors’ again it will be too soon.


Don't worry, you'll have a list just as long after a year or two in the Middle East.

:lol:


----------



## ClemClan

*SLIM8589 *[perhaps best demonstrated by the ‘Biscuit Aisle Incident’ as we like to call it. Can there be anything more depressing in those first few weeks than standing in the Biscuit Aisle of your local Woolworths unable to recognise a single biscuit and ultimately coming away dejected and empty-handed?


Hilariously true! Thank you - that comment made me laugh, which possibly could be the first time I've had a laugh on this forum! I'm getting used to the 'biscuit-aisle' now, well, have no choice really, but I do bake now! still miss those classic favourites though, I won't bore you with a list!:clap2:


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## topcat83

ClemClan said:


> *SLIM8589 *[perhaps best demonstrated by the ‘Biscuit Aisle Incident’ as we like to call it. .....
> 
> Hilariously true! Thank you - that comment made me laugh, which possibly could be the first time I've had a laugh on this forum! I'm getting used to the 'biscuit-aisle' now, well, have no choice really, but I do bake now! still miss those classic favourites though, I won't bore you with a list!:clap2:


Chocolate Hobnobs! There! I've said it


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## Pepperpot

topcat83 said:


> Chocolate Hobnobs! There! I've said it


Please tell me they have Jaffa cakes


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## slim8589

Pepperpot said:


> Please tell me they have Jaffa cakes


You can get Jaffa Cakes from the specialist British food shops. But you will pay something like 5 times the price. We used to buy stuff from the one in Palmerston North but when you are paying $1.50 for a 10p Finger of Fudge you soon get weary of the expense.


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## topcat83

I always come back with Hobnobs, Jaffa Cakes, Curly Wurlies and Tetley tea bags. It's fine to bring these things into NZ - but declare that you have food items. I always keep a list that I can hand to the Customs guy - makes it a much smoother process.

And one of the best things in NZ? Ice cream! My favourites are Passionfruit (with pips), Boysenberry ripple (like Raspberry Ripple but a much more intense flavour) and Hokey pokey (little bits of caramel in vanilla ice cream).


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## ClemClan

topcat83 said:


> Chocolate Hobnobs! There! I've said it


Ah yes Topcat, mmmmmm ....my mum bought three packs with her when she visited recently, let's just say it didn't take long to get through them!


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## acronych

*My Two Cents Worth*

Having just moved to New Zealand from Brisbane Australia, It is with great interest that I read the posts on this forum. I only intend to stay here a maximum of two years as I am studying. Obviously, it is a lot easier for Australians like myself to come to NZ than it is for others on the forum, as we require no visa and there are no restrictions on work etc. The only limitation is that I cannot claim a student allowance for two years. To be honest the only reason I chose NZ was because it was so easy and cheap for Australians to come. If I were a younger man (I am 44) I would have chosen the US or Canada as my chosen port to study. 

I did the ubiquitous camper van trip around NZ late last year and gained a fair insight into the NZ psyche. So I had a fair Idea of what was install for me here in the land of the long white cloud. Having said that, it was still a shock to see the condition of housing here, the majority of which is of poor quality with fittings and fixtures from the 1950's - 1970's. I mean when a real estate agent puts a picture of the toilet as the main feature picture on their trademe advertisement, you just know things are not going to get much better! Another great shock was what passes as "newly renovated" I mean haven't seen so much lino since the late sixties! What ever happened to tiles, carpet, slate and polished wood floors? At first the housing sounds so much cheaper than Brisbane (which is ridiculously high) but what you get for your $$$ here is very poor.

..... to be continued


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## Braulio

It is as I feared it to be. I am sick that my employer is sending me to this place and I do not sleep.

I am thinking I should quit my job to find other.


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## Braulio

acronych said:


> Having just moved to New Zealand from Brisbane Australia, It is with great interest that I read the posts on this forum. I only intend to stay here a maximum of two years as I am studying. Obviously, it is a lot easier for Australians like myself to come to NZ than it is for others on the forum, as we require no visa and there are no restrictions on work etc. The only limitation is that I cannot claim a student allowance for two years. To be honest the only reason I chose NZ was because it was so easy and cheap for Australians to come. If I were a younger man (I am 44) I would have chosen the US or Canada as my chosen port to study.
> 
> I did the ubiquitous camper van trip around NZ late last year and gained a fair insight into the NZ psyche. So I had a fair Idea of what was install for me here in the land of the long white cloud. Having said that, it was still a shock to see the condition of housing here, the majority of which is of poor quality with fittings and fixtures from the 1950's - 1970's. I mean when a real estate agent puts a picture of the toilet as the main feature picture on their trademe advertisement, you just know things are not going to get much better! Another great shock was what passes as "newly renovated" I mean haven't seen so much lino since the late sixties! What ever happened to tiles, carpet, slate and polished wood floors? At first the housing sounds so much cheaper than Brisbane (which is ridiculously high) but what you get for your $$$ here is very poor.
> 
> ..... to be continued


Please continue. It is almost winter. How warm are you in your house and how much does it cost to keep it heated?


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## Havoline

i see topcat's avartar on a motard, its NZ a good biking country? Forget the crimes in the cities, but is it safe to go on a biking trip alone to the countryside?

Are Kiwi's good drivers or king of the road?


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## topcat83

Havoline said:


> i see topcat's avartar on a motard, its NZ a good biking country? Forget the crimes in the cities, but is it safe to go on a biking trip alone to the countryside?
> 
> Are Kiwi's good drivers or king of the road?


Biking alone - absolutely! There's very little crime on the open road!! And no 'biking gangs' that are likely to harrass you.

Safe with regards the roads and Kiwi driving habits? Definitely a mixed bag. 

The roads are wonderful for biking - long, sweeping (generally) well-kept tarmac roads with relatively few roads joining them. Very little traffic, And beautiful countryside.

And if you're into off-road and gravel - there's plenty of that too.

Kiwi drivers - very mixed. And there are some very nasty bike accidents, usually caused by either bikers or drivers becoming complacent about the lack of traffic and side roads.

So - usual story, ride defensively and assumeeveryone else is an idiot, and you should be fine


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## KiwiNomad

Motorcycling in New Zealand is magnificent, even if it is a bit chilly. Two other things to look out for while riding.... overtaking on the inside because of slow vehicles in the outer lane seems to be the norm; and a really strange turning/give way rule. But then again I believe the latter is going to change to a "normal" system soon.


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## Havoline

Fabulous roads..


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## Kristi

Agree, i think nz is different for everyone. For me coming from africa, it is great. We dont have freedom in south africa, pavements (in my home town in anyway) and a good education that comes relatively free, - and healthcare. so many plus points. Do i miss africa , of course, the bush the rugged ness and the plain simple open people, but do i miss the other violent muderous gangsters - no way. nz for me!


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## siddiqmohsin

I am a Business Development Manager in Dubai, my wife and I were excited about applying for skilled migration to New Zealand. A friend who has recently gotten his Canadian PR got me thinking, he is very well read and I do give his opinions some weight. He just made a cursory remark about housing in New Zealand being expensive. 

I made the mistake of googling more information (after I just paid for my degree assessment from NQA; I am about to submit my EOI). Honestly, pic's comments regardless of all the emotions raise a lot of red flags especially for us immigrants looking for an up on their quality of life.

I am Pakistani and my wife is Russian and we already are sensitive to racism and being an inter racial couple in an immigrant hating country is scary. I will now start some serious research into New Zealand. I will also begin a Canadian application.

I am quite sad after reading this thread but glad I read it. Thank you pic, you have at the least raised an alarm loud enough for me to not blindly assume New Zealand is a 1st world country. Honestly, if even 50% of what negative was said here was true it would make Dubai a 1st world country way ahead of New Zealand. And I had complaints about Dubai.


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## jojo

siddiqmohsin said:


> I am a Business Development Manager in Dubai, my wife and I were excited about applying for skilled migration to New Zealand. A friend who has recently gotten his Canadian PR got me thinking, he is very well read and I do give his opinions some weight. He just made a cursory remark about housing in New Zealand being expensive.
> 
> I made the mistake of googling more information (after I just paid for my degree assessment from NQA; I am about to submit my EOI). Honestly, pic's comments regardless of all the emotions raise a lot of red flags especially for us immigrants looking for an up on their quality of life.
> 
> I am Pakistani and my wife is Russian and we already are sensitive to racism and being an inter racial couple in an immigrant hating country is scary. I will now start some serious research into New Zealand. I will also begin a Canadian application.
> 
> I am quite sad after reading this thread but glad I read it. Thank you pic, you have at the least raised an alarm loud enough for me to not blindly assume New Zealand is a 1st world country. Honestly, if even 50% of what negative was said here was true it would make Dubai a 1st world country way ahead of New Zealand. And I had complaints about Dubai.


There will always be different people with different views. Nowhere is perfect and you should always try to get a balanced view. Most countries have issues and they'll always be someone who finds things that others dont. So find out for yourself and dont take one persons view as the diffinative one

Jo xxx


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## topcat83

jojo said:


> There will always be different people with different views. Nowhere is perfect and you should always try to get a balanced view. Most countries have issues and they'll always be someone who finds things that others dont. So find out for yourself and dont take one persons view as the diffinative one
> 
> Jo xxx


Too right jojo. I'm afraid that not all peoples comments on some of our threads are balanced!


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## CanterburyChick

I do agree with much of what Top Cat has said. I am a Brit and have been living in Canterbury for the last 5 years with my husband and daughter.

_[deleted - advertising]_ The one thing I always ask _[deleted]_ is 'why do you want to move to New Zealand' - its important to understand what motivates people. 

Coming from the UK I can totally agree that salaries are so much lower here - however we knew this before we arrived (having done our research) - we did not move here to 'get rich quick'

Shopping for food and clothes - this has greatly improved in just the 5 years that we have been here. However one thing to just point out that its all relative - New Zealand has just over 4 million residents - the UK has some 76 million and the US I'm not going to even guess!! You would not get the same choice of items as you do in the US or UK for just 4 million people - supply & demand........

Education - I think is actually quite good here but again it depends on your child and their abilities and/or disabilities. My daughter goes to a lovely rural school and the community is very very strong here. 

I do agree that it takes a while to develop deeper friendships with the Kiwis (no offence Top Cat). I think the Kiwi's are such a lovely race and they really do embrace the old values of trying to help out another human being - we saw much kindness in our first few months here. To get to a deeper friendship takes time and I feel now that I have some great Kiwi pals around me.

Touching on the American Guy's comment about not being able to set up a business is not quite true. _[deleted - advertising]_

I could go on and on about the posts written on this subject but to sum up............

If you are moving to New Zealand ask yourself why you want to move. New Zealand isn't utopia - you don't move here to 'get rich quick'. You move here for the slower pace of life, a great quality of outdoor living and to give children an opportunity of having a longer childhood (in my opinion). Wherever you move to in the world you have to respect the fact that you are an immigrant to that country and that you respect its values and culture.

If you can't do that then you really have to ask - why on earth would that country want you!


----------



## piperchic

As a kiwi, I have taken great offense to what you have written about NZ and its people "pic". I have travelled all over Europe and Asia for the past 3 years and have been living in France for the last year and I have made many observations of the differences but have tried to understand them in the context of a different culture rather than my own. Which I think is important (and you are obviously unable to do). 

Personally, after all my travels, I think New Zealanders are some of the most openly friendly people (and genuinely). My french boyfriend spent 6 months in New Zealand and fell in love with the people and we are now emigrating back to NZ. Of course, there are problems in NZ as in any country. But if you look at it on a global scale, it is a very safe and welcoming country. Children are safe, the water is clean, the landscapes are beautiful and the people are genuinely friendly (By the way, I resent your comment about NZ being covered in litter... have you seen the streets in France? People NEVER pick up after their dogs, the amount of times ive stepped in dog poo is ridiculous... and rubbish bins don't seem to be used! We pride ourselves on being 'tidy kiwis' and i was brought up as a young child to never litter. Its very clean in comparison to alot of European and Asian cities so you are talking utter crap there.). 

I am not prepared to go over your lengthy reasons for disliking NZ but for those out there considering moving to NZ, please do not take this one persons overreactions and exaggerations as gold. We do have problems (LIKE EVERY SINGLE COUNTRY!) but like CanterburyChick said, its about your reasons for coming to NZ (not to get rich quick but to enjoy the slow pace of life and lifestyle... and of course the nature!). And I believe NZ has a lot to offer if you ignore spiteful comments from people like pic. Kia kaha NZ.

If anyone has any questions about what its really like in NZ (and I will tell you the good and the bad, from a kiwi perspective), feel free to message me.

I am sad that I felt compelled to defend our country against pic but after the amount of times I have met people that when I say Im from NZ say that its so amazing and that they had one of the best experiences in their life there... well, pic you are missing out. Go back to France and complain about it to someone that cares!

P.s. if your car breaks down, how many people will pull over and help in NZ? if you fall over in the street, how many people will help you out in NZ? .... well, I cant say the same for France. I have seen people having seizures, old people in the metro where noone moves (nearly daily, I am the only one that seems to move), had my car broken down and noone stopping to help. I love to help people out and i genuinely do care about other humans and I believe that is something beautiful and unique about NZ (a bit like a big community where everyone looks out for each other) rather than being 1 of 10 million people in a city with no sense of responsibility for helping others.

Voila, c'est tout. Bon voyage! J'espere que vous allez aimer la prochaine pays!!


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## topcat83

piperchic said:


> As a kiwi, I have taken great offense to what you have written about NZ and its people "pic". I have travelled all over Europe and Asia for the past 3 years and have been living in France for the last year and I have made many observations of the differences but have tried to understand them in the context of a different culture rather than my own. Which I think is important (and you are obviously unable to do).
> 
> Personally, after all my travels, I think New Zealanders are some of the most openly friendly people (and genuinely). My french boyfriend spent 6 months in New Zealand and fell in love with the people and we are now emigrating back to NZ. Of course, there are problems in NZ as in any country. But if you look at it on a global scale, it is a very safe and welcoming country. Children are safe, the water is clean, the landscapes are beautiful and the people are genuinely friendly (By the way, I resent your comment about NZ being covered in litter... have you seen the streets in France? People NEVER pick up after their dogs, the amount of times ive stepped in dog poo is ridiculous... and rubbish bins don't seem to be used! We pride ourselves on being 'tidy kiwis' and i was brought up as a young child to never litter. Its very clean in comparison to alot of European and Asian cities so you are talking utter crap there.).
> 
> I am not prepared to go over your lengthy reasons for disliking NZ but for those out there considering moving to NZ, please do not take this one persons overreactions and exaggerations as gold. We do have problems (LIKE EVERY SINGLE COUNTRY!) but like CanterburyChick said, its about your reasons for coming to NZ (not to get rich quick but to enjoy the slow pace of life and lifestyle... and of course the nature!). And I believe NZ has a lot to offer if you ignore spiteful comments from people like pic. Kia kaha NZ.
> 
> If anyone has any questions about what its really like in NZ (and I will tell you the good and the bad, from a kiwi perspective), feel free to message me.
> 
> I am sad that I felt compelled to defend our country against pic but after the amount of times I have met people that when I say Im from NZ say that its so amazing and that they had one of the best experiences in their life there... well, pic you are missing out. Go back to France and complain about it to someone that cares!
> 
> P.s. if your car breaks down, how many people will pull over and help in NZ? if you fall over in the street, how many people will help you out in NZ? .... well, I cant say the same for France. I have seen people having seizures, old people in the metro where noone moves (nearly daily, I am the only one that seems to move), had my car broken down and noone stopping to help. I love to help people out and i genuinely do care about other humans and I believe that is something beautiful and unique about NZ (a bit like a big community where everyone looks out for each other) rather than being 1 of 10 million people in a city with no sense of responsibility for helping others.
> 
> Voila, c'est tout. Bon voyage! J'espere que vous allez aimer la prochaine pays!!


Go sock it to him, PiperChick! Well said! 

I've been in NZ for coming up for 4 years now, and never fail to be surprised at the friendliness and helpfulness of everyone. On our first day in the country we were offered to stay in the holiday bach (cottage) of 'our cousins ex-wife's new husbands daughter's old school-friend' who we happened to meet at the local theatre! How's that for trusting??

I'm in the UK at the moment for family reasons - but can't wait 'til September, when we're back in 'godzone', un-double-glazed houses and all!!


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## cazdel

*cazdel*

i have been there also and know this is very much true


pic said:


> The best advice one can give skilled NZ immigrants today is to wise up about NZ. Imagine working in a third world country or the former "DDR" and you get the picture. And befitting to a country only pretending to be a democratic capitalist economy, NZ is known amongst those who dare to read the fine print, to influence media and falsify statistics to appear like a "Britain in the Tropics". This can only be explained with the quite feeble and bribe/nepotism-riddled economy and the bad living conditions (bad housing, low wages, high crime) that apparently leave the government no choice to lie. If you haven't heard about these facts in the daily press it is due to the intelligent NZ news management. NZ earns as much (about 8 billion $) from Immigrants as from tourism. If you look closely, you can detect a policy to incorporate the immigrant savings within the first 2 years into the NZ economy without paying out any government benefits (not even if you are working and paying taxes). The majority of immigrants who has not "worked themselves poor" after these first two years, leaves, usually empty-handed and without savings. A government statistic states that 98% of immigrants are still there after 2 years. It was publicized on international travel and placed in "quality of life" articles. The truth is that only immigrants already in the country for more than 2 years have participated in it, so the majority of immigrants who had already left the country never showed up in the figures. Other "big claims" are just as unreal when you live here, like "green country", or "educational system that scored high in PISA". This is a place of make-believe. A prop-country.
> 
> In relation to work permits there are no rules that you couldn't find overthrown tomorrow. The economy is weak and unstable due to soft laws, bribing, nepotism and a brutal government employee attitude of "squeezing out money for oneself no matter what" commonly only found in this quantity in third world countries with an economically traumatized middle class like Guatemala. Any government official who can afford it has a house in other countries. That alone says a lot. And it is simply not true that the average person works less. If they want to get ahead and not drift through life with minimal money, they work the same hours, but in cold and damp offices, earnings half of what you get for the same work in Europe (if you get 40.000 EUR, expect to get 40.000 NZ$ here, which are 20.000 EUR). Yes, living costs are "the same" compared to the rest of the industrialized world, but you earn half, so what does that mean for your spending power in a country that imports everything from toothbrushes to TVs for regular EUR and US$ prices? Many working adults in Auckland can't even afford their own apartment and you can find many groups of 3-4 40 year olds accountants, sales people, bank employees or other middle class workers, sharing houses just because the rents are so ridiculously high and they are still paying off years for a simple TV. Buying houses can be a shocking experience. The houses are not insulated and without proper heating giving New Zealanders the highest asthma statistics. It's the kind of housing you buy as "garden sheds" in Europe. This alone must be one of the weirdest aspects of this bloated, false palm tree-economy and one of the main reasons my husband and I are leaving the country soon. No realistic relation between house prices and what you get for the money. A normal garden shed type house (a timber frame with wood panels nailed on) costs about as much as a "real" house in Europe made of stone, with heating and insulation, which you pay off with halved wages. Which means, NZlers actually never own their houses, but pay "rent" to the banks all their lives. Pretending to be more than one is, is a big sport here.
> 
> Recently a lot of European immigrants have been chased out of the country after they were fired and lost their work visas. It was a little national scandal going through the leading papers, Currently New Zealand is loosing many of the foreign skilled laborers they so feverishly tried bring into the country in the past years. Also 40.000 Kiwis leave for Australia every year (which is a lot with a population of 4 million), because of the bad wages while government agencies stall applications of immigrants. What you have heard about "better have a job before coming to NZ" is a result of of that blind, confused nationalistic activism. The job situation is especially bad for everyone "skilled" like Ad and Media professionals, teachers, consultants or other office or class room professionals. There are many stories of Europeans and US citizens being mobbed and excluded from positions which are continuously advertised as free. This is not Europe or the US, so being forced to work under inhumane conditions or being subjected to mobbing and racist jokes or being excluded based on gender, race or nationality is not something you can bring to court here. It is more likely that the police will come to your house to harass you, because one of his cousins works in the same office with you and heard that you had been complaining about NZ (when all you might have said is that you are freezing at your desk because the room is unheated and that this is something that could not happen in Europe)
> 
> Under such conditions, should you still try to get a work visa from Europe or the US before coming here? Why not, but it might not be worth the paper that it is written on, because you can easily spent 6 months to a year here (finance with your own money) without being hired (despite several jobs available you would be a perfect match for) and then you have to return anyway. And you couldn't even enjoy the beach, because you are burning away your savings and subjecing yourself to unjust treatment and a world of abuse where you as a person count little. If you really need to be in this country, come here for three months on a tourist visa in a test run, and see if you could get a job in your line of work and if the money would be enough and if you can stand the "socialist economy" attitudes, store inventory, housing, and the constant degrading comments about foreigners meant to be funny, but that just get on every immigrants nerves never after the 10th time while you degrade to just another NZ cash cow. The over-eagerly nice NZ people that do everything for paying tourists are the same people that will harass and ignore anyone who attempts to settle down here and take away "their" jobs.
> 
> In any case NZ itself is always the winner, financially, but at what cost. I shudder when I think about what moral values NZ destroys, just for a short-sighted, greedy gain of undoubtedly heavy immigrant savings. And if you see yourself in old age and think about your contribution to the world, is it really the right thing to do to spend your life supporting a degrading, nature and value destroying little country with low morale? I'm not a social worker or doctor, but the thought of me supporting this country by living here, while I see what it does to people and nature, and values is something that has gotten to me over the past two years. I don't think anyone serious about not only their carbon but also their "moral" footprint wants to have that on their conscience. And also, even if you get used to being the immigrant idiot everyone takes advantage of (especially when you are an intellectual and skilled and like doing a good job), and eventually learn to steal and bribe and cheat your way up the NZ social ladder "Number 8 wire" style (because there is no other way to do it), can you get over the fact that you've been compromised by a society where dishonesty is a high moral value?. How much can you enjoy a nice beach so that you forget that constant bad feeling in your stomach of supporting the wrong cause in a place far away from friends, family and decency? Europe and the US are not great achievements of mankind in many ways, but at least, they're not prop countries, a film set where everything looks like the real thing, but isn't. The only real thing here is the nature, and it comes down to living in a "Dharma Initiative" tropical camp that rewards the ones that bribe, steal, cheat, kill and torment, and slowly destroys the honest people.


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## smithpamela

*Soon to be "Newbie"*

After reading these posts I am terrified. My house is sold, I've quit my job and the one way tickets are for Aug 20. I have traveled all my life and have found much to like about almost everywhere I have been. Maybe I have been naive

My first shock was that although NZ exports much of the world's building supplies a "Dallas" middle class home just isn't possible in NZ. Instead we are using two "barn" structures and linking them for lots of room with two walls of glass into the bush. Think New York loft instead of Tuscan starter-castle. I am going to try for a NZ winter experience, but if I get cold and can't deal with it I will put in a heat pump. 

No doubt, just like any island, everything arrives by airplane or boat and it is more expensive (except wine). NZ has great value on really good wine. I plan to grow most of my own food and have a small vineyard for wine. On our trips to the US we bring back BBQ sauce and sweet pickle relish. (not found in NZ)

My experiences with the NZ people have been very positive. I have discussed politics late into the night and while I love my homeland, I do not agree with many of its policies. I find NZ to be much like the US of the 1950's and a bit of the 1970's. All good things like putting family first, leisure time and acceptance of alternate lifestyle.

I am very fortunate in that I don't have to look for a job. My husband and I own a small software company and I have worked for many years in the US. The most severe challenge facing NZ is providing competitive opportunities for young people in challeging careers. 

Anyway, the die is cast and I am on my way! I am the envy of my US friends and am determined to make it work. I hope to meet with some of the members of the board and to those for whom it just didn't work; God bless and Godspeed


----------



## jojo

smithpamela said:


> After reading these posts I am terrified. My house is sold, I've quit my job and the one way tickets are for Aug 20. I have traveled all my life and have found much to like about almost everywhere I have been. Maybe I have been naive
> 
> My first shock was that although NZ exports much of the world's building supplies a "Dallas" middle class home just isn't possible in NZ. Instead we are using two "barn" structures and linking them for lots of room with two walls of glass into the bush. Think New York loft instead of Tuscan starter-castle. I am going to try for a NZ winter experience, but if I get cold and can't deal with it I will put in a heat pump.
> 
> No doubt, just like any island, everything arrives by airplane or boat and it is more expensive (except wine). NZ has great value on really good wine. I plan to grow most of my own food and have a small vineyard for wine. On our trips to the US we bring back BBQ sauce and sweet pickle relish. (not found in NZ)
> 
> My experiences with the NZ people have been very positive. I have discussed politics late into the night and while I love my homeland, I do not agree with many of its policies. I find NZ to be much like the US of the 1950's and a bit of the 1970's. All good things like putting family first, leisure time and acceptance of alternate lifestyle.
> 
> I am very fortunate in that I don't have to look for a job. My husband and I own a small software company and I have worked for many years in the US. The most severe challenge facing NZ is providing competitive opportunities for young people in challeging careers.
> 
> Anyway, the die is cast and I am on my way! I am the envy of my US friends and am determined to make it work. I hope to meet with some of the members of the board and to those for whom it just didn't work; God bless and Godspeed



Horses for courses and we're all different. Everyone has different tastes, levels of tolerance and opinions. You cant allow one person to colour your judgement either way!! So go for it and enjoy the experience

Jo xxx


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## CanterburyChick

smithpamela said:


> After reading these posts I am terrified. My house is sold, I've quit my job and the one way tickets are for Aug 20. I have traveled all my life and have found much to like about almost everywhere I have been. Maybe I have been naive



Hi there

Don't be terrified, some people have negative views of New Zealand because it didn't meet with their expectations, and thats fine but for the bulk of us who do move here from overseas we know we have made the right decision.

As I have said in my previous posts - New Zealand isn't Utopia - its what you make of it and you don;t come here to 'get rich fast'. There are many opportunities for those that wish to seek them, certainly setting up a business as New Zealand is a young country and still has plenty of opportunity for expansion without getting over populated. It is a small country who, in my view, is still quite old fashioned in many ways: its morals (I think this is a good thing) and seasonal fruit & veg to name but a few. Also another observation I have found is that many people (predominantly Brits) come here thinking that New Zealand is just like the UK because they talk the same language. Even between the UK and NZ there is a difference in culture - and this is what catches some people out!

The average New Zealand wage is low compared to other countries in the world but we're hoping the Government will eventually see sense and bring this level up so that it attracts (and keeps) highly skilled people in the country. However - if a person migrating here has done their research (like most sensible people would have done) they will know this so it won't come as a huge shock!

I too have always found the people of New Zealand to be friendly and helpful (and I have been here 5 years). When I first got here a young teenager (14yrs) got chatting to me whilst I was emptying my food shopping in my 4x4, asking if I had done much off roading....at the end of unpacking my items he then said to me "I'll take your trolley for you and put it away" - my first (cynical) thought was "what do you want?" - then I realised he was just being very polite and helpful. I wouldn't have expected that behaviour from a teenager in the UK!! I know you are from the US but I'm from the UK hence my comparisons to the UK).

Life is definitely what you make of it and if you want to make it work and blend in to New Zealand life you will. If you come and compare the whole time to your country of origin and moan about what New Zealand 'hasn't got' then you probably won't fit in. 

Grass is never greener on the other side - its just different - and if you want something different then you'll be making the right decision I'm sure.

Good luck with your move - come with a positive attitude - its exciting and new challanges and experiences lie ahead. I'm based just north of Christchurch so if you're heading to Christchurch just message me - will happily meet for a coffee 

We found these type of forums great when we moved to New Zealand - its always good to have a few contacts when you first arrive and help find your feet. :welcome:


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## topcat83

cazdel said:


> i have been there also and know this is very much true


Cazdel - but have you lived here, or been here for any length of time? There is an element of truth in Pics posts, but to my mind, they are totally out of proportion to real life here.

To anyone reading this thread - don't expect paradise, but I find NZ to be the country where I personally want to continue living.


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## Wiremu

Hello,

My time is short today so I cannot post a lengthy comment (but will do so in the future) except to say that I have lived in New Zealand for almost four years and found that there are many, many problems along the lines of what 'pic' and others have mentioned. I am in the process of leaving New Zealand and returning to my home country. After some time away, I will put my feelings down on paper. I need time to digest what has happened and think this is important to be fair to both myself and New Zealand. All I can tell you for sure right now is there are no 'innocents' and plenty of blame (for lack of a better word) to go around. 

A common refrain is that people shouldn't come to NZ without doing their research first, and certainly reading forums like this is part of that process. But forums can be very difficult to decode because there are such extremes of position and criticisms are often shrugged off. And visiting may not really tell you as much as you think. I myself actually visited NZ prior to moving here, and saw very little of the issues I would discover upon living in the country. Not surprising really. After all, holidays are a completely different experience from real life. 

I'll close with a simple 'caveat emptor' and a strong urge for anyone considering to come to NZ to think very carefully about their priorities, expectations, and tolerances. If you are hearing warning bells go off in your head, then you should think about why and what's causing them. Learn to sift simple pre-move jitters from something more serious that will haunt you in a more lingering way. This sort of thoughtful introspection may help you a great deal later, and doesn't mean that you won't still make the move to NZ. 

Most importantly, if you do decide to come, don't regret the decision. It's an adventure. It could be an expensive one, too, so consider this fair warning. Stay as long as you're enjoying it, and keep a stash of cash as an 'escape fund' so that when / if you decide to leave you can do so very quickly. Nothing would be worse than feeling trapped.

Best of luck.

~Wiremu


----------



## Lobo

Well, Pic, I have to agree with pretty much everything you've said. We too fell for - foolishly/naively perhaps - the NZ government propaganda. Prop country - nicely put. We too are professionals who were on the 'long and short term skills shortage'. We came on an LTBV - with a view to hiring local 'talent' or training locals in an area of technology that NZ purports to encourage and promote. Hah! What a joke that turned out to be, albeit a bad one. Not only is this a third world country in terms of the knowledge and implementation of new technologies, the Nz'ers instantly despise you for knowing something they don't! They don't want to learn, embrace, encourage or participate. They will avoid using your services even if it means depriving themselves of something they actually desire to have - because you're a 'Brit'. Remind you of a saying about cutting off your nose . . . .? NZ government propaganda is breathtaking in the depth and depravity of its lies and deceit in this respect. As you so rightly said; DDR. 

The NZ'ers (predominantly descendants of British migrants) also view altruism as a weakness and therefore an even faster method of taking your money from you. In fact since we arrived it has felt as though we've been mugged on a regular basis - I'd go so far as to say this is country populated by Vampires!

The nature-loving 'green' NZ'ers have systematically decimated the natural flora and fauna of the country and factory farmed vast tracts into barren wasteland. Though they are quick to blame their actions on anyone but themselves - rather like a five year old who claims, 'It wasn't my fault, he made me do it!' And if you don't continuously praise them for being clever, lovely, good little Kiwi's they will throw an unholy tantrum! The NZ'ers have a Universal chip on their shoulders and seem to invoke the standard response to the slightest criticism- even things THEY complain about; 'You are a whining Pom!' Because of course NZ is a demi-paradise beyond reproach or criticism in any form! The Australian's call Kiwi's 'bludgers' - and given that hordes of them flock to the UK and seem to be expert at getting something for nothing from the British tax payer, I'd say they were bang on with their description. 

Can't wait to leave - tickets are booked and we shall escape with most of our cash intact, though this has been an expensive con. We shall spread the word to any intelligent, well-intentioned, good-hearted people naive enough to believe that they can look forward to a better life in this mirage the locals call 'Gods own country'. Being confessed atheists; that should have been warning enough!


----------



## topcat83

Wiremu said:


> Hello,
> 
> My time is short today so I cannot post a lengthy comment (but will do so in the future) except to say that I have lived in New Zealand for almost four years and found that there are many, many problems along the lines of what 'pic' and others have mentioned. I am in the process of leaving New Zealand and returning to my home country. After some time away, I will put my feelings down on paper. I need time to digest what has happened and think this is important to be fair to both myself and New Zealand. All I can tell you for sure right now is there are no 'innocents' and plenty of blame (for lack of a better word) to go around.
> 
> A common refrain is that people shouldn't come to NZ without doing their research first, and certainly reading forums like this is part of that process. But forums can be very difficult to decode because there are such extremes of position and criticisms are often shrugged off. And visiting may not really tell you as much as you think. I myself actually visited NZ prior to moving here, and saw very little of the issues I would discover upon living in the country. Not surprising really. After all, holidays are a completely different experience from real life.
> 
> I'll close with a simple 'caveat emptor' and a strong urge for anyone considering to come to NZ to think very carefully about their priorities, expectations, and tolerances. If you are hearing warning bells go off in your head, then you should think about why and what's causing them. Learn to sift simple pre-move jitters from something more serious that will haunt you in a more lingering way. This sort of thoughtful introspection may help you a great deal later, and doesn't mean that you won't still make the move to NZ.
> 
> Most importantly, if you do decide to come, don't regret the decision. It's an adventure. It could be an expensive one, too, so consider this fair warning. Stay as long as you're enjoying it, and keep a stash of cash as an 'escape fund' so that when / if you decide to leave you can do so very quickly. Nothing would be worse than feeling trapped.
> 
> Best of luck.
> 
> ~Wiremu


Hi Wimeru - thanks for your very useful post. And I'm sorry that it didn't work here for you.

You are right - it is very important that people think carefully before such a huge life-change. And an important part of that is knowing about some of the not so good things too. Discussions like the ones on this thread are important, and highlight that sometimes things are not perfect. And (generally) the people who come over knowing the potential pitfalls first are the ones that stand a better chance of settling in.

I see your American. Did you have difficulties with the NZ culture at all? NZ culture tends to be 'understated' compared to US culture, and there is no-where near as much choice of things to buy. 

A number of people on these threads have also mentioned 'Tall Poppy Syndrome' - i.e. if you put your head above the rest it's cut off! In fact, it's because NZ'ers see it as bad taste to sell yourself by telling people what you can do - they see it as 'bragging', which is bad manners. This is particularly noticeable in the Maori & South Pacific island cultures. I fell foul of this one when i started work. I'd worked for an American company in the UK, where you were expected to sell yourself. The same approach in a typical Kiwi insurance company just didn't go down well at all! So one difficult lesson learned here


----------



## topcat83

Lobo said:


> Well, Pic, I have to agree with pretty much everything you've said. We too fell for - foolishly/naively perhaps - the NZ government propaganda. Prop country - nicely put. We too are professionals who were on the 'long and short term skills shortage'. We came on an LTBV - with a view to hiring local 'talent' or training locals in an area of technology that NZ purports to encourage and promote. Hah! What a joke that turned out to be, albeit a bad one. Not only is this a third world country in terms of the knowledge and implementation of new technologies, the Nz'ers instantly despise you for knowing something they don't! They don't want to learn, embrace, encourage or participate. They will avoid using your services even if it means depriving themselves of something they actually desire to have - because you're a 'Brit'. Remind you of a saying about cutting off your nose . . . .? NZ government propaganda is breathtaking in the depth and depravity of its lies and deceit in this respect. As you so rightly said; DDR.
> 
> The NZ'ers (predominantly descendants of British migrants) also view altruism as a weakness and therefore an even faster method of taking your money from you. In fact since we arrived it has felt as though we've been mugged on a regular basis - I'd go so far as to say this is country populated by Vampires!
> 
> The nature-loving 'green' NZ'ers have systematically decimated the natural flora and fauna of the country and factory farmed vast tracts into barren wasteland. Though they are quick to blame their actions on anyone but themselves - rather like a five year old who claims, 'It wasn't my fault, he made me do it!' And if you don't continuously praise them for being clever, lovely, good little Kiwi's they will throw an unholy tantrum! The NZ'ers have a Universal chip on their shoulders and seem to invoke the standard response to the slightest criticism- even things THEY complain about; 'You are a whining Pom!' Because of course NZ is a demi-paradise beyond reproach or criticism in any form! The Australian's call Kiwi's 'bludgers' - and given that hordes of them flock to the UK and seem to be expert at getting something for nothing from the British tax payer, I'd say they were bang on with their description.
> 
> Can't wait to leave - tickets are booked and we shall escape with most of our cash intact, though this has been an expensive con. We shall spread the word to any intelligent, well-intentioned, good-hearted people naive enough to believe that they can look forward to a better life in this mirage the locals call 'Gods own country'. Being confessed atheists; that should have been warning enough!


Hey - on the back of this post I can understand why they call you a 'Whining Pom'! Did you come into the country and tell them all how backward they were compared to the rest of the world and why they had to listen to you and do what you said? No wonder they told you where to go! See the previous post from me about 'Tall poppy Syndrome' - aka 'we think it's bad manners to brag about what youcan do'. Try and learn something about the culture before you jump in with both big feet.

With regards green things - like many other places the Brits have been, introduced animals have run riot with the local flora and fauna. NZ is trying very hard to put right what has been made wrong. But it won't happen overnight. Meanwhile, there are many out-lying islands (including those in the Hauraki Gulf near Auckland) where pests have been eradicated, NZ bush is being re-planted, and the natural NZ birds are coming back (together with some introduced flightless ones). There are marine reserves, and strict fishing quotas that mean NZ'ers can (shock-horror) actually go fishing and catch fish, whilst maintaining the fish stocks around our coastline!

I personally am sitting in the UK at the moment, and have just had confirmed all the reasons why we wanted to emigrate to NZ in the first place. I can't wait for the day when we get on that plane back!


----------



## cazdel

*yes*



topcat83 said:


> Cazdel - but have you lived here, or been here for any length of time? There is an element of truth in Pics posts, but to my mind, they are totally out of proportion to real life here.
> 
> To anyone reading this thread - don't expect paradise, but I find NZ to be the country where I personally want to continue living.


I have lived and worked there in new brighton christchurch even owned a house there. Very expensive and lowly paid:


----------



## Eleisha

Wiremu said:


> Hello,
> 
> My time is short today so I cannot post a lengthy comment (but will do so in the future) except to say that I have lived in New Zealand for almost four years and found that there are many, many problems along the lines of what 'pic' and others have mentioned. I am in the process of leaving New Zealand and returning to my home country. After some time away, I will put my feelings down on paper. I need time to digest what has happened and think this is important to be fair to both myself and New Zealand. All I can tell you for sure right now is there are no 'innocents' and plenty of blame (for lack of a better word) to go around.
> 
> A common refrain is that people shouldn't come to NZ without doing their research first, and certainly reading forums like this is part of that process. But forums can be very difficult to decode because there are such extremes of position and criticisms are often shrugged off. And visiting may not really tell you as much as you think. I myself actually visited NZ prior to moving here, and saw very little of the issues I would discover upon living in the country. Not surprising really. After all, holidays are a completely different experience from real life.
> 
> I'll close with a simple 'caveat emptor' and a strong urge for anyone considering to come to NZ to think very carefully about their priorities, expectations, and tolerances. If you are hearing warning bells go off in your head, then you should think about why and what's causing them. Learn to sift simple pre-move jitters from something more serious that will haunt you in a more lingering way. This sort of thoughtful introspection may help you a great deal later, and doesn't mean that you won't still make the move to NZ.
> 
> Most importantly, if you do decide to come, don't regret the decision. It's an adventure. It could be an expensive one, too, so consider this fair warning. Stay as long as you're enjoying it, and keep a stash of cash as an 'escape fund' so that when / if you decide to leave you can do so very quickly. Nothing would be worse than feeling trapped.
> 
> Best of luck.
> 
> ~Wiremu


Firstly let me say that I absolutely love New Zealand. It has the most amazing scenery and some of the most unspoiled landscape I've ever seen. I've made some wonderful, lifelong friends and there are some traditions that I shall forever hold very dear to my heart. I've found most Kiwis to be warm, genteel and welcoming. It really did become my home and I embraced it, prepared to make a lifelong commitment to it. 

However, I simply cannot live there anymore and it saddens me to say that, more than you can imagine. I have taken a sabbatical from a job that I was utterly devoted to and am now having to reassess my whole life after leaving. 

This is rather like going through a messy divorce for me right now and I can understand why some people may come across as bitter about New Zealand, I'm trying hard not to become like that and remember the good times.

I can totally relate to what you've written and feeling the need to have time to digest and assimilate what happened whilst in NZ. I feel that I only have myself to blame but I'm not sure if that's how I should be feeling right now. I too thought I'd done my research very well indeed and had visited a number of times but I simply wasn't prepared for some of the issues that are encountered only by living in New Zealand. May I say that this was not the only country that I have lived in, having been involved with development work in other places.

Having that 'escape fund' was ultimately my life preserver. There were so many times when it would have been easy to have dipped into it piece by tempting piece - when rent was due, when winter fuel bills came in, for much needed car repairs or when I was desperate for a break. Thank heavens I kept it. Not only do I have my life savings intact but my retirement fund is also untouched and believe me there were a few times when that almost got raided!

It's good to know that there are a few others who feel like me and that one really does need to know one's tolerances. Thank you for sharing. I hope we all manage to get it sorted out.


----------



## Eleisha

topcat83 said:


> With regards green things - like many other places the Brits have been, introduced animals have run riot with the local flora and fauna. NZ is trying very hard to put right what has been made wrong.


To be fair some of that flora and fauna were introduced long before the Brits arrived in New Zealand.

It's a hard fight and I'm not sure that it can be put right after so long, the small isolated islands are probably the best hope for eradication and for re-establishing the native wildlife.


----------



## Guest

Could I ask those who complain about New Zealand, if they have ever consider they have failed to accommodate New Zealand way of life due to their ignorance, lack of sense of humor and being too cold? 

In general I have found majority of Brits to be so cold, hard to be approched and so hard to make genuine friendship with. Furthermore majority want/think other countries should have similar way of living as UK which is a way of saying we Brits are ignorant. (note that I have live, study and work in UK for more than 7 years and hence these comments are truly based on my personal experience.)

So maybe, New Zealand way of living is different to UK but why should it be the same? Did you go to New Zealand to have the same life like UK? If so what is the point? I think people should really do their home work and take their own responsibilities and stop blaming New Zealand government for fooling them as to me I think people do fool themselves. 

UK is not perfect as most people are trying to say here (for the last 7 years it has gotten worse and worse) and if you talking about imigration issue, high skilled immigrant on work permit visas in the UK are required to go home within one-three months after lossing their jobs!!! So is this so different to New Zealand? 

I do guess the only different between me and majority of you is that for most of you UK is home and you don’t want to see its faults.


----------



## Eleisha

Hello Cled, I'm not British!  But I do know plenty of them who are warm, kind and funny and we have a great time. Perhaps it's only the miserable ones that are left in Britain? 

To be fair to them many of the complaints they have about New Zealand are also voiced by other nationalities. If it were just the people from one country that were having issues I'd be inclined to agree with you. 

I see from one of your previous posts that your partner was removed from the UK, that must've been hard on you both. I hope you have better luck with your move to New Zealand.


----------



## ClemClan

cled said:


> Could I ask those who complain about New Zealand, if they have ever consider they have failed to accommodate New Zealand way of life due to their ignorance, lack of sense of humor and being too cold?
> 
> In general I have found majority of Brits to be so cold, hard to be approched and so hard to make genuine friendship with. Furthermore majority want/think other countries should have similar way of living as UK which is a way of saying we Brits are ignorant. (note that I have live, study and work in UK for more than 7 years and hence these comments are truly based on my personal experience.)
> 
> 
> So maybe, New Zealand way of living is different to UK but why should it be the same? Did you go to New Zealand to have the same life like UK? If so what is the point? I think people should really do their home work and take their own responsibilities and stop blaming New Zealand government for fooling them as to me I think people do fool themselves.
> 
> UK is not perfect as most people are trying to say here (for the last 7 years it has gotten worse and worse) and if you talking about imigration issue, high skilled immigrant on work permit visas in the UK are required to go home within one-three months after lossing their jobs!!! So is this so different to New Zealand?
> 
> I haven't seen any posts where people are making out that the UK is perfect - must have missed them ones. Britain has got worse and maybe it will carry on that way too.
> 
> I do guess the only different between me and majority of you is that for most of you UK is home and you don’t want to see its faults.


There are faults which ever country you live in - including NZ and expats and everybody is entitled to their opinion. I haven't seen any posts on here saying that Britain is perfect (must have missed those ones) which of course it isn't and has got worse. I think your comments about brits being cold and humourless is unfair. There are brits like that and NZ'ers as well, but not the majority!


----------



## Guest

Eleisha said:


> Hello Cled, I'm not British!  But I do know plenty of them who are warm, kind and funny and we have a great time. Perhaps it's only the miserable ones that are left in Britain?
> 
> To be fair to them many of the complaints they have about New Zealand are also voiced by other nationalities. If it were just the people from one country that were having issues I'd be inclined to agree with you.
> 
> I see from one of your previous posts that your partner was removed from the UK, that must've been hard on you both. I hope you have better luck with your move to New Zealand.


Elisha, 

I bet the Brits you know are those who have travelled and see the world. I am not sure if you have lived, studied and worked in Britain before. But one thing I can tell you, Irish and Scottish are down to earth and are very outgoing people, they will always greet you and give you genuine smile back but not majority of English. English are a bit cold and it take more time for them to be your really pals and even to greet you back!! You might be going to uni with them and see them everyday but it will take them so long to even say hi back!! 

I can even go ahead to say, there is no way, Brits will get closer to Mediterranean, Americans,Asians, Africans or New Zealander for being friendly and down to earth people. I know most of people who will be reading this will be Brits and this will peaced them off but hey this is open place to speak and that is my opinion. 

But one thing I can really back the Brits government is on human rights and equal opportunity. In Britain as long as you work hard, follow the laws and put your priority straight, ignore unfriendly people then you will always survive and get what you want in life. 

Elisha, I would like you to know that my feeling for England has nothing to do with my other half removal from UK. If that was the case I would have talked about it and emphasis on that particular point but I didn’t cause that is not a point here!! (after all the removal was an unfair and he won the case in high court!!!)

Have you ever lived in the UK before especial England?


----------



## Guest

ClemClan said:


> There are faults which ever country you live in - including NZ and expats and everybody is entitled to their opinion. I haven't seen any posts on here saying that Britain is perfect (must have missed those ones) which of course it isn't and has got worse. I think your comments about brits being cold and humourless is unfair. There are brits like that and NZ'ers as well, but not the majority!


ClemClan, 

I guess you took this a bit personal but hey lets be honest here, if you are a foreigner living in a foreign country is easy to see its fault than if you born and raised in that country. That is a human nature and we should accept it. 

I do stand by my opinion that majority of born and raised Brits tends to be a bit cold and hard to be approached, I find them too serious and easy to be offended (However this tends to change as you go to the north). Irish and Scottish are more friendly than English and that is the truth. Sorry if this upset you but that is my opinion. 

I personally have no problem with that and i will never want people to change to accommodate me or other foreigners in UK or in any other country. I think each country should embrace its way of living and foreigners should be the ones who should change to accommodate those culture. 

Thus why i think its a bit wrong for people to come on this forums and say they have been fooled by NZ government etc.. they should move there with open mind and know that is another country not their country of original, hence they will be things they will have to adjusted 2 and learn to live with.


----------



## ClemClan

cled said:


> ClemClan,
> 
> I guess you took this a bit personal but hey lets be honest here, if you are a foreigner living in a foreign country is easy to see its fault than if you born and raised in that country. That is a human nature and we should accept it.
> 
> I do stand by my opinion that majority of born and raised Brits tends to be a bit cold and hard to be approached, I find them too serious and easy to be offended (However this tends to change as you go to the north). Irish and Scottish are more friendly than English and that is the truth. Sorry if this upset you but that is my opinion.
> 
> I personally have no problem with that and i will never want people to change to accommodate me or other foreigners in UK or in any other country. I think each country should embrace its way of living and foreigners should be the ones who should change to accommodate those culture.
> 
> Thus why i think its a bit wrong for people to come on this forums and say they have been fooled by NZ government etc.. they should move there with open mind and know that is another country not their country of original, hence they will be things they will have to adjusted 2 and learn to live with.


Thanks Cled, don't worry you haven't upset me, I just wanted to say that not all brits are moaning poms or cold etc ...I was born in the North of England and yes they can be warmer. 

I do agree with you though about what you said about people saying that they've been fooled by the NZ government as it's down to the individual to research the country they plan to emigrate to. You do need an open mind and it's not going to be same as where you've come from - it's a different culture. 

I like NZ, I liked it when I holidayed here and I've lived here for three years now and I like it, otherwise I'd be leaving! But at the end of the day there's things that I and other people don't like and it's the same where ever you live, that's life, no place is perfect.


----------



## Eleisha

*@Cled*

Yes I have but I wasn't studying there, I was working, maybe that made a difference?

People do say that New Zealand is a very British country and I think the Brits are probably the largest immigrant group there. If you don't get on with them too well are you sure that New Zealand is the best choice for you?



> But one thing I can really back the Brits government is on human rights and equal opportunity. In Britain as long as you work hard, follow the laws and put your priority straight, ignore unfriendly people then you will always survive and get what you want in life.


If you value that highly you should try to stay there and work things out, I'm not sure that New Zealand is at this stage yet.


----------



## ClemClan

cled said:


> Elisha,
> 
> I bet the Brits you know are those who have travelled and see the world. I am not sure if you have lived, studied and worked in Britain before. But one thing I can tell you, Irish and Scottish are down to earth and are very outgoing people, they will always greet you and give you genuine smile back but not majority of English. English are a bit cold and it take more time for them to be your really pals and even to greet you back!! You might be going to uni with them and see them everyday but it will take them so long to even say hi back!!
> 
> I can even go ahead to say, there is no way, Brits will get closer to Mediterranean, Americans,Asians, Africans or New Zealander for being friendly and down to earth people. I know most of people who will be reading this will be Brits and this will peaced them off but hey this is open place to speak and that is my opinion.
> 
> But one thing I can really back the Brits government is on human rights and equal opportunity. In Britain as long as you work hard, follow the laws and put your priority straight, ignore unfriendly people then you will always survive and get what you want in life.
> 
> Elisha, I would like you to know that my feeling for England has nothing to do with my other half removal from UK. If that was the case I would have talked about it and emphasis on that particular point but I didn’t cause that is not a point here!! (after all the removal was an unfair and he won the case in high court!!!)
> 
> Have you ever lived in the UK before especial England?



Very sorry to hear that you have found Brits to be cold, what a shame, unfortunately I can't say the same, but I actually haven't met that many brits out here - yeah I know, hard to believe when apparently there's so many of them here! 

I moved here from a rural village in the UK, where I spent most of my adult life and everyone was close knit and warm and friendly, no-body passed you by in the street without a hello or a smile - I found it totally different here, I would smile and say hello and get no reply (maybe they were Brits!) - and hasn't changed. My husband, who's in the construction industry would be welcomed on site by Brits, Irish, Scottish, Americans, Australians Etc... and be totally ignored by kiwis, it would take them weeks to even say hi. So I guess we all find things different and have different opinions. I have some nice kiwi friends and the few Brits that are friends or I've met have been friendly so far!


----------



## ClemClan

cled said:


> Elisha,
> 
> I bet the Brits you know are those who have travelled and see the world. I am not sure if you have lived, studied and worked in Britain before. But one thing I can tell you, Irish and Scottish are down to earth and are very outgoing people, they will always greet you and give you genuine smile back but not majority of English. English are a bit cold and it take more time for them to be your really pals and even to greet you back!! You might be going to uni with them and see them everyday but it will take them so long to even say hi back!!
> 
> I can even go ahead to say, there is no way, Brits will get closer to Mediterranean, Americans,Asians, Africans or New Zealander for being friendly and down to earth people. I know most of people who will be reading this will be Brits and this will peaced them off but hey this is open place to speak and that is my opinion.
> 
> But one thing I can really back the Brits government is on human rights and equal opportunity. In Britain as long as you work hard, follow the laws and put your priority straight, ignore unfriendly people then you will always survive and get what you want in life.
> 
> Elisha, I would like you to know that my feeling for England has nothing to do with my other half removal from UK. If that was the case I would have talked about it and emphasis on that particular point but I didn’t cause that is not a point here!! (after all the removal was an unfair and he won the case in high court!!!)
> 
> Have you ever lived in the UK before especial England?



Elisha - Very sorry to hear that you have found Brits to be cold, what a shame, unfortunately I can't say the same, but I actually haven't met that many Brits out here - yeah I know, hard to believe when apparently there's so many of them here! 

I moved here from a rural village in the UK and everyone was close knit and warm and friendly, no-body passed you by in the street without a hello or a smile - I found it totally different here, I would smile and say hello and get no reply (maybe they were Brits!) My husband, who's in the construction industry would be welcomed on site by Brits, Irish, Scottish, American, Australian Etc... and totally ignored by kiwis, it would take them weeks to even say hi. So I guess we all find things different and have different opinions. I have some nice kiwi friends and the few Brits that are friends or I've met have been friendly so far!


----------



## Guest

Eleisha said:


> Yes I have but I wasn't studying there, I was working, maybe that made a difference?
> 
> People do say that New Zealand is a very British country and I think the Brits are probably the largest immigrant group there. If you don't get on with them too well are you sure that New Zealand is the best choice for you?
> 
> If you value that highly you should try to stay there and work things out, I'm not sure that New Zealand is at this stage yet.


Elisha, I am not so sure where you got that idea i don't get well with Brits!!! To be honest you really surprise me with your assumptions!! You seems to have your own ideas about me 

I don't know how old you are but for me, I am still young and I have a long way to see this world. So I will take every bit of opportunity I have to explore, embrace and respect other people different ways of living. I think its more than wrong people moving to another country with idea that country will be the same as their home country!! 

No where is perfect and no two places will ever be the same and that is what I was trying to put forward in all my previous post in this topic. 

Elisha I hope we are now on the same chapter


----------



## Eleisha

ClemClan said:


> Elisha - Very sorry to hear that you have found Brits to be cold, what a shame, unfortunately I can't say the same, but I actually haven't met that many Brits out here - yeah I know, hard to believe when apparently there's so many of them here!
> 
> I moved here from a rural village in the UK and everyone was close knit and warm and friendly, no-body passed you by in the street without a hello or a smile - I found it totally different here, I would smile and say hello and get no reply (maybe they were Brits!) My husband, who's in the construction industry would be welcomed on site by Brits, Irish, Scottish, American, Australian Etc... and totally ignored by kiwis, it would take them weeks to even say hi. So I guess we all find things different and have different opinions. I have some nice kiwi friends and the few Brits that are friends or I've met have been friendly so far!


It was Cled who said this


----------



## Eleisha

cled said:


> Elisha, I am not so sure where you got that idea i don't get well with Brits!!! To be honest you really surprise me with your assumptions!! You seems to have your own ideas about me
> 
> I don't know how old you are but for me, I am still young and I have a long way to see this world. So I will take every bit of opportunity I have to explore, embrace and respect other people different ways of living. I think its more than wrong people moving to another country with idea that country will be the same as their home country!!
> 
> No where is perfect and no two places will ever be the same and that is what I was trying to put forward in all my previous post in this topic.
> 
> Elisha I hope we are now on the same chapter


I'm sorry Cled, thanks for explaining more. I probably picked it up from this


> In general I have found majority of Brits to be so cold, hard to be approched and so hard to make genuine friendship with


----------



## ClemClan

Eleisha said:


> It was Cled who said this


Oh sorry Eleisha - my apologies!


----------



## James & Lisa

Hi Pic,

Wow reading your blog shatters my hopes and dreams!! It reads like i am moving my family to Nazi Germany. God i hope your wrong!

I am interested to know if NZ is the first country you have lived in outside of France? If not, how did you get on the other countries? Did you like it or should i ask, did they like you? I have a theory about common denominators, if you don't like any other country maybe the issue is you?! Just a thought.

I have had the great pleasure of travelling the world not all of it, but a lot of it. I lived in many different countries ranging from Islamic States, to third world Africa, to (supposed) First world countries and i have many many many great memories from all of them. From my travels i have experienced good and bad in all the places i have been. Mostly good though!!! I have also been fortunate to learn a few things on the way which i feel you may have missed Pic. So being the nice guy that i am i'll share a few:

1.) Every place is different, surprising but true! If you want American prices, taxes, housing etc. Stay in America. If you want French wine at French prices, civil servants running business (i worked for Air France!!!), stay in France. In fact if you like your home and find error and bad in the rest of the world....you've guessed it..............STAY AT HOME.

2.) Flexibility, you are going into a new environment that has existed without you believe it or not, to fit in YOU have to be flexible not the place and certainly not the people

3.) HUMILITY, you are going to a country not of your own, you are different, you have to make the effort and when the house isn't according to European specs, guess what it aint Europe so why would it be?! Remember that every country or person has not been blessed with the luxury that you have clearly had that has placed you so high on the pedestal.

If Kiwis are more fond of there own and i have to work hard to get into that inner circle and if they don't accept me immediately, you know what? I respect that. Just look at Europe and the utter nonsense they tolerate, the shear mess they have got themselves into with this open arm, sorry i made a mistake 600 years ago nonsense, so have a passport. If New Zealand is tough on those who don't work, tough on those who are not willing to change, tough on those that come with a "i'm better than you cause i'm from a 1st world country" attitude, then i all i know is that i am gonna love the place. 20 August we are landing I CANT WAIT!!!


----------



## topcat83

James & Lisa said:


> Hi Pic,
> 
> Wow reading your blog shatters my hopes and dreams!! It reads like i am moving my family to Nazi Germany. God i hope your wrong!
> 
> I am interested to know if NZ is the first country you have lived in outside of France? If not, how did you get on the other countries? Did you like it or should i ask, did they like you? I have a theory about common denominators, if you don't like any other country maybe the issue is you?! Just a thought.
> 
> I have had the great pleasure of travelling the world not all of it, but a lot of it. I lived in many different countries ranging from Islamic States, to third world Africa, to (supposed) First world countries and i have many many many great memories from all of them. From my travels i have experienced good and bad in all the places i have been. Mostly good though!!! I have also been fortunate to learn a few things on the way which i feel you may have missed Pic. So being the nice guy that i am i'll share a few:
> 
> 1.) Every place is different, surprising but true! If you want American prices, taxes, housing etc. Stay in America. If you want French wine at French prices, civil servants running business (i worked for Air France!!!), stay in France. In fact if you like your home and find error and bad in the rest of the world....you've guessed it..............STAY AT HOME.
> 
> 2.) Flexibility, you are going into a new environment that has existed without you believe it or not, to fit in YOU have to be flexible not the place and certainly not the people
> 
> 3.) HUMILITY, you are going to a country not of your own, you are different, you have to make the effort and when the house isn't according to European specs, guess what it aint Europe so why would it be?! Remember that every country or person has not been blessed with the luxury that you have clearly had that has placed you so high on the pedestal.
> 
> If Kiwis are more fond of there own and i have to work hard to get into that inner circle and if they don't accept me immediately, you know what? I respect that. Just look at Europe and the utter nonsense they tolerate, the shear mess they have got themselves into with this open arm, sorry i made a mistake 600 years ago nonsense, so have a passport. If New Zealand is tough on those who don't work, tough on those who are not willing to change, tough on those that come with a "i'm better than you cause i'm from a 1st world country" attitude, then i all i know is that i am gonna love the place. 20 August we are landing I CANT WAIT!!!


Hi James & Lisa

Pics thread has certainly caused some discussion over the months. What can I say? Pics views are extreme.

Please read all the other posts in the thread, and hopefully you'll get a more balanced view. NZ is not paradise - real people live here. But for me personally it's where I want to spend the rest of my life. So it can't be all bad!


----------



## CanterburyChick

James & Lisa 

All I can say is what a great post and oh so true.

If you don't try something you'll never know - its not the fault of the country you've moved to, nor its people, nor your fault if it doesn't work out - you've tried a new experience that just wasn't right for you.


----------



## jenswaters

A superb post, James&Lisa!!!

It doesn't matter the number of positive posts that get put on here, the negative ones seem to embed themselves in people's memories. Everyone has an opinion and a different experience, and that needs to be respected. What I haven't liked about a lot of posts it that the totally negative or totally positive posts are given as ACCURATE posts that should be seen as true for everyone. 

For anyone who moves out to ANY country, there will always be hard times, things are that difficult, and periods of...nostalgia or doubt (regret is such a strong word). But that would happen with any move, whether a country or a move within a country to a new city.

Try to find balanced posts, that give facts, rather than opinions.

Well done, James&Lisa


----------



## Bronzze

*Thank you for your insight!!*

, I've read your information about NZ and will take it to heart. The responses to your also let me know you are on point with your comments. 
I was thinking about visiting NZ but thanks to your insight I will take my dollars elsewhere.

Thank you


----------



## topcat83

Bronzze said:


> , I've read your information about NZ and will take it to heart. The responses to your also let me know you are on point with your comments.
> I was thinking about visiting NZ but thanks to your insight I will take my dollars elsewhere.
> 
> Thank you


What a shame, Bronzze - you should read all the comments - balanced ones and all - before deciding to write our beautiful country off. However, your loss!

I see you're in Tonga - I've been there. Does NZ seem so bad in comparison? Although a beautiful country, Tonga is certainly not perfect in all respects either, I'm sure you'll agree.


----------



## Eleisha

James & Lisa said:


> Hi Pic,
> 
> Wow reading your blog shatters my hopes and dreams!! It reads like i am moving my family to Nazi Germany. God i hope your wrong!
> 
> I am interested to know if NZ is the first country you have lived in outside of France? If not, how did you get on the other countries? Did you like it or should i ask, did they like you? I have a theory about common denominators, if you don't like any other country maybe the issue is you?! Just a thought.
> 
> I have had the great pleasure of travelling the world not all of it, but a lot of it. I lived in many different countries ranging from Islamic States, to third world Africa, to (supposed) First world countries and i have many many many great memories from all of them. From my travels i have experienced good and bad in all the places i have been. Mostly good though!!! I have also been fortunate to learn a few things on the way which i feel you may have missed Pic. So being the nice guy that i am i'll share a few:
> 
> 1.) Every place is different, surprising but true! If you want American prices, taxes, housing etc. Stay in America. If you want French wine at French prices, civil servants running business (i worked for Air France!!!), stay in France. In fact if you like your home and find error and bad in the rest of the world....you've guessed it..............STAY AT HOME.
> 
> 2.) Flexibility, you are going into a new environment that has existed without you believe it or not, to fit in YOU have to be flexible not the place and certainly not the people
> 
> 3.) HUMILITY, you are going to a country not of your own, you are different, you have to make the effort and when the house isn't according to European specs, guess what it aint Europe so why would it be?! Remember that every country or person has not been blessed with the luxury that you have clearly had that has placed you so high on the pedestal.
> 
> If Kiwis are more fond of there own and i have to work hard to get into that inner circle and if they don't accept me immediately, you know what? I respect that. Just look at Europe and the utter nonsense they tolerate, the shear mess they have got themselves into with this open arm, sorry i made a mistake 600 years ago nonsense, so have a passport. If New Zealand is tough on those who don't work, tough on those who are not willing to change, tough on those that come with a "i'm better than you cause i'm from a 1st world country" attitude, then i all i know is that i am gonna love the place. 20 August we are landing I CANT WAIT!!!


HI James and Lisa there are very strong South African expatriate communities in parts of New Zealand, is you get into one of those you may find it easier to find your feet.

A colleague at work was from South Africa and she found the network helped her tremendously when she first arrived. Unfortunately NZ wasn't for her and she returned to South Africa three months ago and I know of others that have gone back also and some who have made a commitment to stay.

If you watch that video that CanterburyChick mentioned you'll see the sort of problems that can arise. Sometimes people can emigrate with the best of intentions and a strong will to make things work but find that events conspire against them.


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## Song_Si

*NZ: 100 per cent Pure rip-off*

This article has caused a stir in NZ; while it was written in terms of tourism for the 2011 Rugby World Cup, I would agree with his overall sentiments re pricing and the cost of living in NZ.

*NZ: 100 per cent Pure rip-off*

*Rip off New Zealand?*

Guys, just 14 months out from the 2011 Rugby World Cup, you are sleep-walking into acquiring such an unwanted reputation worldwide.

The price of ordinary, everyday articles and living costs horrify me in this country. I've been here, admired the place, loved the people since 1975. I wasn't even put off by my first ever weekend in New Zealand - 17cm of rain in 24 hours and sitting shin-deep in water at Eden Park as the All Blacks aqua-planed past Scotland in that infamous 1975 test.

But what I see today is of far, far greater concern. This place is becoming one of the most expensive I visit, one giant rip-off. And most of you seem unaware of it.

It's not as if I live a hermit's life in some sweet little English village where nothing has changed since the war. I spend much time in France; have been to Rome, Venice, Paris, Dublin, London, New York, San Francisco, Augusta, Johannesburg, Cape Town and Sydney so far this year. You'd have to admit, however grudgingly, that gives me some licence to compare this country with others.

What I find here amazes me. So much so that I don't know how most ordinary folk manage to balance their budgets. True, petrol is much cheaper than in Britain. But in just about every other field, hotels, car hire, restaurant food, wine, clothes or whatever, you're the victims of massive overcharging.

Of course, it's always difficult to compare like with like when speaking of different countries but this is an overall impression from someone from Europe.

I sat down for a simple lunch at a restaurant on Auckland's waterfront last week. The sun was shining, the setting fabulous. A glass of splendid New Zealand sauvignon blanc was a delight - until we saw the price. $28 for two ordinary sized glasses? You don't pay that in Paris or London, unless you go somewhere like the George V in Paris or London's Ivy restaurant.

Now let's be fair. The NZ dollar has appreciated significantly against the pound over the course of the past 12-18 months. When I last visited NZ it was $2.40 to £1. Today, it is around $2.04. But does that explain a growing number of instances where an overseas visitor felt totally ripped off?

And there is growing evidence that it is chiefly the cities of this country who are leading this "grab what you can, make a killing" attitude towards visitors. If that is indeed the case, then it is the country areas, the less populated centres, who will suffer most.

Take car hire. Am I the only visitor to New Zealand who has ever decided that it would be better to drive from Auckland to Wellington and stop for a couple of nights somewhere to see the North Island? It hardly struck me as a revolutionary idea, yet this set me up as a target for just about every major hire car firm in Auckland.

Hertz demanded an outrageous $300 drop-off fee if I wanted to leave the car in Wellington. Yet isn't that what 90 per cent of visitors would do if they were touring, especially going on to the South Island? Companies such as Avis, Europcar and others were demanding only slightly smaller amounts. Some didn't even have a drop facility in Wellington.

Only Ace Rental Cars charged for the hire, no drop off. They are based in Parnell. Go there, save yourself a fortune and snub the big rip-off merchants. Because the fact is, if you hire a car almost anywhere in Europe, there is no drop-off fee. They understand tourists want to drive from A to B and then leave their car. Why rob them for the privilege?

Parking in one city centre carpark in Wellington this week was $9 an hour, $39 for four hours. In Monte Carlo, the first hour's parking at public carparks is, er, free.

Then there are the hotels. This weekend in Wellington at the InterContinental, a king room costs $410. Now it is rugby test weekend and it has club facilities but even so. £205 a room? You might pay that in New York or London but not in most European capitals. And just imagine what on earth such a room will cost on the weekend of October 8/9 next year when Wellington hosts two of the Rugby World Cup quarter-finals.

The capital city costs a fortune and it's not just an Englishman who thinks so. In the winter of 2008, in the company of several visiting South African writers, we sat down in a harbourside restaurant. When the menus arrived, we were so horrified by the prices we all got up and walked out. It was daylight robbery.

Last week, at Kermadec in Auckland, one main lunch dish was $33. In the evening, entrees were $25, mains around $42 with desserts $18. The wines were equally expensive. In a Takapuna restaurant, also last week, a bottle of Stoneleigh pinot noir cost $48. I could take you to a dozen restaurants in Nice where you'd drink a perfectly good French wine for nothing near that amount.

Even in glitzy Monte Carlo, at one elegant beachside restaurant, a glass of rose wine costs less than $6. And that is in one of the best locations on the Cote d'Azur. The fact is, you just don't have to spend such vast amounts as New Zealand hostelries are charging, even in outstanding restaurants across Europe.

The cost of New Zealand wine bewilders me in restaurants. In supermarkets you can buy a good bottle of your outstanding sauvignon blanc for as little as $12.99. But dare to order it in a restaurant and it soars to anything between $40 and $60. That's a 400 per cent mark up, or more.

Then there are clothes. One New Zealand store last week had a merino wool wrap-over cardigan for $498. In Rodd & Gunn in Queen St, wool sweaters were offered at $235. True, there was a discount which made them $180, around £90. But you'd barely pay that in Paris. No wonder the place was empty.

In another store, a pair of New Zealand-made socks cost $35. Far cheaper in Europe and even less expensive in America. In New York in April, I bought four top-quality cotton shirts for US$99 ($130). In Wellington this week, one specialist shirt shop was offering three shirts for $300.

Yet it isn't like this everywhere in New Zealand. I hired a room at the Boulevard Waters Motor Lodge overlooking Lake Taupo this week and stayed two nights. The setting, right on the waterfront, was spectacular, matched only by the views. $158 a night did not strike me as robbery for such a comfortable room and fantastic setting, with your own private terrace overlooking the lake.

In Taupo for lunch, the Fusion cafe served an enormous bowl of delicious seafood chowder with two slices of focaccia. It was a meal in itself and superb quality. The cost? $10.50. Great value, and it shone like a beacon on a dark night in terms of the many examples of overcharging I've encountered on this trip.

Does any of this matter? After all, it's only tourists who might get fleeced and they won't be back every year. And the Rugby World Cup which is being held here next year might be the last time it is hosted exclusively by New Zealand. So hey guys, grab what you can in hiked up profits, make a fortune and smile all the way to the bank. Right? No, wrong, dead wrong.

New Zealanders will be dumb if they even think of such a philosophy. The World Cup ought to be an event that showcases the whole country to visitors from every corner of the globe. They should go home extolling the virtues of this land. Think long term, six or even 16 years of profits on the back of that scenario, not a money grab operation spanning six weeks which will persuade many visitors never to return.

Already, the word is getting out in an international sense that New Zealand is getting expensive. The fact is, you just can't afford to allow that image to take root. You're too far away from the rest of the world to afford such a scenario. In Paris, Rome, London or New York they can get away with that purely due to population numbers in those parts of the world. It is very different here. International travellers are not fools; fewer will come if New Zealand is known as too expensive.

Learn from the example of South Africa which has just hosted the soccer World Cup. Some locals believed they'd make such a killing.

They spent thousands transforming facilities in their homes so they could charge visitors astronomical rental fees. Airlines elevated the cost of domestic flights to another stratosphere; hotel prices were eye-watering.

The result? Many private South Africans didn't get any visitors at all. Some would-be landlords are now crying they are close to financial ruin.

In case you hadn't noticed it down here, there is a major recession ravaging the Western world, especially Britain, Europe and the US. Budgets have been slashed, overseas trips heavily curtailed. The moment the word gets out internationally that New Zealand has become one big rip-off, your tourism industry is in serious trouble.

The rush to profit might seem a Valhalla but long term it could be the ruination of not just your business but a great many others.

* Peter Bills is an international writer for Independent News & Media.


Source: Peter Bills: NZ: 100 per cent Pure rip-off - National - NZ Herald News


----------



## topcat83

Song_Si said:


> This article has caused a stir in NZ; while it was written in terms of tourism for the 2011 Rugby World Cup, I would agree with his overall sentiments re pricing and the cost of living in NZ.
> 
> *NZ: 100 per cent Pure rip-off*...... (See Song Si's post below for the rest...)


This is one article - and I believe there were others in response defending NZ. As per usual, I'd say it's not exactly balanced. In fact, dare I say (shock-horror) it's a great article for selling newspapers! 

I'll agree with the drop-off charge at the airport - especially between major centres. 

The other costs - well, he did pick the most expensive restaurant in the Viaduct to eat in!! Just around the corner from Kermedec is a restaurant that we often go to from my office. It has a $10 NZD lunch deal. Or Grasshopper (under the Stamford Plaza Hotel) - $15 for 2 courses, and $5 for a glass of wine.

Parking - after spending the last 8 weeks in London - sorry - Auckland has nothing on London. I am totally hacked off at having to pay to park everywhere in London. In Auckland you generally only have to pay in the centre, and even then, if you park on e meter (NOT in a multi-storey) you'll be paying a reasonable amount.

Hotels - look at www.wotif.co.nz - $440 NZD is the 'rack rate' - you can currently stay there for $229 NZD. And there are cheaper hotels in town.

Mark-up of wine in restaurants - I think it's the same the world over. It certainly is in London!

Clothes - if he's going to shop in the equivalent of Harrods, or in the tourist shops, then yes, he's going to pay a fortune for them. I suggest he goes to Farmers, or Hallensteins, like the rest of us!

He goes on to mention some very reasonably priced places - but of course by the time you get there you're so enraged by the 'expensive' NZ that you've turned off. So in my opinion it is a very, very unfair and biased article.

One thing for people to remember - NZ is the same size as the UK (population 72 million) but has much less than one tenth of the population (population 4.5 million). But often the infrastructure needed is the same. So the costs per capita are more. I've actually been surprised since I've been over here how good the infrastructure is when compared with the cost to me.


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## NZCowboy

That article is pure b.....t, its been taken apart by the media extensively;

For example
Exchange Rates NZ$ has appreciated greatly of late .. GBP to NZ was .33 now .52

Kermadec restaurant Auckland, probably "one of the top" restaurants in NZ operated by Peter Thornley - _The only Chef outside of Europe to have won the coveted Mandarin Napoleon Culinary Grand Prix, Singapore chef of the year for 4 years running, National Business Review top achiever award these are only a few accolades of the most well known Chef in New Zealand. He can also be found in front of the camera, where he has fronted regular shows for TV2’s “Ready Steady Cook”, the “Good Living Show” MasterChef, Star Chefs for NBC, regularly heard on national radio and writes for Luxury magazine.

With both a local and an international reputation to match Peter was named by Singapore wine and Dine Magazine as one of the Chefs to have most influenced food in the last 100 years._
Given Peters reputation alot of people would same that prices are good value.

Car hire - drop off fees, common practise all over the world, it only takes a couple of brain cells to use it to your advantage, fly into Wellington drive to Auckland and you usually get a greatly discounted rate. I have known of students even being paid to drive rentals back to Auckland.

Wellington at the InterContinental - Check full price for other InterContinental world wide very comparable, remember this was the weekend of International sporting event.

Wine Prices ... in NZ alot of restaurants have BYO licenses, so buy your 12.99 bottle from your off-license take it along and the restaurant will charge you about $8 corkage.

Prices @ Viaduct(auckland waterfront) restaurants .. location location location, ... do real people drink here?

Rodd and Gunn .. vitually a label brand, high street type store ... again do real people shop here?

Peter Bills selected preminium/top end products, locations etc and complianed that they were expensive, quality reporting ... *yeah right*(NZ Tui Beer add)


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## topcat83

Comment from better half on the article - 'if it was that expensive none of us would be able to afford to live here - and we obviously can'


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## drewster

*Doth complain too much?*

Hmmm. This is interesting. Is there something wrong with this PIC-ture? I felt a need to reply and place some colour on this ...

Firstly - some background and context for my reply. Educated in UK, early career in London - emigrated to New Zelanad in early-90's and returned to the UK about five years ago. So - I lived in Auckland and Hamilton for about 12 years and worked in Wellington, Christchurch and holidayed in the Gulf and Corromandel too. I have also travelled all around Europe, USA and Asia. My career is international media and marketing. OK: so now, to address the comment from Pic. What went wrong? New Zealand is a country that gave me everything I could hope for and I am so proud that I have my silver fern and so happy that one day I will return again. Your comments are amazing - as I know so many Brits who have emigrated and build incredible lives, businesses, families in New Zealand. 

So - here's my take on my migration to New Zealand, to put your post into perspective for other readers.

Auckland: Normally acknowledged by PWC as one of the top 5 cities in the entire planet, for work, lifestyle, climate, safety. Auckland is not for everyone. It is 30% polynesian (biggest Pacific culture in the world) and 25% east asian. It also has a big South African and west asian population too. If you do not like that eclectic mix, then you won't like Auckland. If you're looking for little England - go to Christchurch, but do not expect the same opportunities.

Govt and Politics. New Zealand was the first country to give women the vote, the first to create a liberal economy in the 80's and the first where the Govt produces and annual report. I do not like the voting system or Winston Peters. However - compared to what? British MP's fidding expenses? 1 million Brits voting for the BNP? Or maybe you like the complete dumbing down of UK media and decline of serious journalism? And as for poverty and social serivices - yes, urban and rural New Zealand has poverty. But. Have you ever been to inner city Liverpool, Manchester or East London. Not exactly paradise is it?

Work: I ended up working in large international media business and studying at Auckland University Business School. It was fantastic. I could not imagine working and studying in London - just too hard. The CBD and suburbs are great places to work, easy to commute to and build a life around. At the moment - I commute into London and trust me people: driving along Mission Bay to Parnell or across the Harbour Bridge to Devonport, looking at Rangitoto is 'just a little bit' nicer than being stuck on a smelly commuter train into Waterloo. I've done both. 

Life is what you make it: If you migrate anywhere you have to adjust to what you find and this is the big learning. I love football. Aucklanders do not talk about it and are not interested. I quickly learnt to love rugby and sailing. Kiwis love movies, coffee, beaches and four wheel drives (UTES). They think Holdens and Fords are far better than BMW's. That's fine - that's Aucklanders. If you do not want to be an Aucklander - then try another city or another country. I had a go and was not always a great new-Kiwi. My sailing was awful, I cannot play touch and my smattering of Maori was polite at best. But - I've seen whales from a tall ship, seen the sun rise over Rangitoto and sat in a Marae, listening to translations from Maori elders into English about arcane parts of Maori cultural law. Things I could not have gained anywhere else. I've also met brilliant entrepreneurs and smart business people who inspired me - and friends for life. 

Money: I made more money and advanced my career quicker and meeting more interesting people in New Zealand than my friends who stayed in London. My best friend is from London, migrated to Auckland and within five years owned about five houses in Mission Bay and Parnell. A lot better than me!!! But that's not New Zealand's fault - that's mine. When I meet up with my old London friends they often admit their lives have passed them by. Sure - I've had good years and bad ones. Great experiences and horrible memories. But overall - migrating to New Zealand is the part of my life I am most proud of. 

Oh - and why am I back in London then, if New Zealand was so great? My mum and dad in England are getting old and my lovely kiwi wife wants to see lots of Europe. Our plan is to move back to New Zealand in about five years. We love it here too - and are having a great time. 

But - New Zealand is where the heart is.


KIA KAHA! ("Be Forever The Strong")


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## topcat83

Hi Drewster - and what a lovely post. Thanks so much for your insights into NZ life. As you say, it is what you make it! We can't wait to get back there this September.


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## James & Lisa

Hi Brewster,

Great post. I couldn't agree more with your approach and your attitude. Our final docs have been submitted via DHL just this very day and my beautiful wife and 3 gorgeous girls wil be arriving in NZ to live the dream.

We are counting the days!!!!

Enjoy the UK whilst you are there.


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## CanterburyChick

drewster said:


> Hmmm. This is interesting. Is there something wrong with this PIC-ture? I felt a need to reply and place some colour on this ...
> 
> Firstly - some background and context for my reply. Educated in UK, early career in London - emigrated to New Zelanad in early-90's and returned to the UK about five years ago. So - I lived in Auckland and Hamilton for about 12 years and worked in Wellington, Christchurch and holidayed in the Gulf and Corromandel too. I have also travelled all around Europe, USA and Asia. My career is international media and marketing. OK: so now, to address the comment from Pic. What went wrong? New Zealand is a country that gave me everything I could hope for and I am so proud that I have my silver fern and so happy that one day I will return again. Your comments are amazing - as I know so many Brits who have emigrated and build incredible lives, businesses, families in New Zealand.
> 
> So - here's my take on my migration to New Zealand, to put your post into perspective for other readers.
> 
> Auckland: Normally acknowledged by PWC as one of the top 5 cities in the entire planet, for work, lifestyle, climate, safety. Auckland is not for everyone. It is 30% polynesian (biggest Pacific culture in the world) and 25% east asian. It also has a big South African and west asian population too. If you do not like that eclectic mix, then you won't like Auckland. If you're looking for little England - go to Christchurch, but do not expect the same opportunities.
> 
> Govt and Politics. New Zealand was the first country to give women the vote, the first to create a liberal economy in the 80's and the first where the Govt produces and annual report. I do not like the voting system or Winston Peters. However - compared to what? British MP's fidding expenses? 1 million Brits voting for the BNP? Or maybe you like the complete dumbing down of UK media and decline of serious journalism? And as for poverty and social serivices - yes, urban and rural New Zealand has poverty. But. Have you ever been to inner city Liverpool, Manchester or East London. Not exactly paradise is it?
> 
> Work: I ended up working in large international media business and studying at Auckland University Business School. It was fantastic. I could not imagine working and studying in London - just too hard. The CBD and suburbs are great places to work, easy to commute to and build a life around. At the moment - I commute into London and trust me people: driving along Mission Bay to Parnell or across the Harbour Bridge to Devonport, looking at Rangitoto is 'just a little bit' nicer than being stuck on a smelly commuter train into Waterloo. I've done both.
> 
> Life is what you make it: If you migrate anywhere you have to adjust to what you find and this is the big learning. I love football. Aucklanders do not talk about it and are not interested. I quickly learnt to love rugby and sailing. Kiwis love movies, coffee, beaches and four wheel drives (UTES). They think Holdens and Fords are far better than BMW's. That's fine - that's Aucklanders. If you do not want to be an Aucklander - then try another city or another country. I had a go and was not always a great new-Kiwi. My sailing was awful, I cannot play touch and my smattering of Maori was polite at best. But - I've seen whales from a tall ship, seen the sun rise over Rangitoto and sat in a Marae, listening to translations from Maori elders into English about arcane parts of Maori cultural law. Things I could not have gained anywhere else. I've also met brilliant entrepreneurs and smart business people who inspired me - and friends for life.
> 
> Money: I made more money and advanced my career quicker and meeting more interesting people in New Zealand than my friends who stayed in London. My best friend is from London, migrated to Auckland and within five years owned about five houses in Mission Bay and Parnell. A lot better than me!!! But that's not New Zealand's fault - that's mine. When I meet up with my old London friends they often admit their lives have passed them by. Sure - I've had good years and bad ones. Great experiences and horrible memories. But overall - migrating to New Zealand is the part of my life I am most proud of.
> 
> Oh - and why am I back in London then, if New Zealand was so great? My mum and dad in England are getting old and my lovely kiwi wife wants to see lots of Europe. Our plan is to move back to New Zealand in about five years. We love it here too - and are having a great time.
> 
> But - New Zealand is where the heart is.
> 
> 
> KIA KAHA! ("Be Forever The Strong")



Hi Drewster

A great, honest and balanced approach to life in New Zealand. It isn't everyones cup of tea but it really depends on why you come and the attitude you bring with you.

Enjoy the UK and Europe - I do miss the fact that with just a short hop on a ferry, tunnel or plane you can be in another country! 

Have fun


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## kevin04

*Your first few days and weeks in NZ ?*

Hi Folks, 

My Partner and I are in the middle of organising our trip to NZ, and researching the forums, internet, and reading what we can about New Zealand. 

We are both 27, and looking to arrive in mid Septemeber and it would be very interesting to hear what People's first thoughts were when they first arrived

And where they stayed? Did you just rent a Hostel/Hotel for a few Weeks until you found the right Apartment or House to stay in? 

Cheers in advance,


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## jerry_springer_room

*I Know What You Mean*

PIC

I was born in New Zealand and I am ashamed to be associated with being from that country. When you live in poverty you can’t afford to have too many morals. The amount of child abuse there that gets swept under the mat because of “cultural sensitivity” is an absolute disgrace. I do not return often, maybe once every five years because I still have family out there but I cannot wait to leave the place. New Zealand people are blinkered, xenophobic, singular, anti intellectual and bigoted. I left New Zealand 15 years ago now and I thank god everyday when I wake up how lucky I am to have made that choice.

I am sorry to hear that you are having such a bad time but I hope things work out for you and all the best for the future.




pic said:


> The best advice one can give skilled NZ immigrants today is to wise up about NZ. Imagine working in a third world country or the former "DDR" and you get the picture. And befitting to a country only pretending to be a democratic capitalist economy, NZ is known amongst those who dare to read the fine print, to influence media and falsify statistics to appear like a "Britain in the Tropics". This can only be explained with the quite feeble and bribe/nepotism-riddled economy and the bad living conditions (bad housing, low wages, high crime) that apparently leave the government no choice to lie. If you haven't heard about these facts in the daily press it is due to the intelligent NZ news management. NZ earns as much (about 8 billion $) from Immigrants as from tourism. If you look closely, you can detect a policy to incorporate the immigrant savings within the first 2 years into the NZ economy without paying out any government benefits (not even if you are working and paying taxes). The majority of immigrants who has not "worked themselves poor" after these first two years, leaves, usually empty-handed and without savings. A government statistic states that 98% of immigrants are still there after 2 years. It was publicized on international travel and placed in "quality of life" articles. The truth is that only immigrants already in the country for more than 2 years have participated in it, so the majority of immigrants who had already left the country never showed up in the figures. Other "big claims" are just as unreal when you live here, like "green country", or "educational system that scored high in PISA". This is a place of make-believe. A prop-country.
> 
> In relation to work permits there are no rules that you couldn't find overthrown tomorrow. The economy is weak and unstable due to soft laws, bribing, nepotism and a brutal government employee attitude of "squeezing out money for oneself no matter what" commonly only found in this quantity in third world countries with an economically traumatized middle class like Guatemala. Any government official who can afford it has a house in other countries. That alone says a lot. And it is simply not true that the average person works less. If they want to get ahead and not drift through life with minimal money, they work the same hours, but in cold and damp offices, earnings half of what you get for the same work in Europe (if you get 40.000 EUR, expect to get 40.000 NZ$ here, which are 20.000 EUR). Yes, living costs are "the same" compared to the rest of the industrialized world, but you earn half, so what does that mean for your spending power in a country that imports everything from toothbrushes to TVs for regular EUR and US$ prices? Many working adults in Auckland can't even afford their own apartment and you can find many groups of 3-4 40 year olds accountants, sales people, bank employees or other middle class workers, sharing houses just because the rents are so ridiculously high and they are still paying off years for a simple TV. Buying houses can be a shocking experience. The houses are not insulated and without proper heating giving New Zealanders the highest asthma statistics. It's the kind of housing you buy as "garden sheds" in Europe. This alone must be one of the weirdest aspects of this bloated, false palm tree-economy and one of the main reasons my husband and I are leaving the country soon. No realistic relation between house prices and what you get for the money. A normal garden shed type house (a timber frame with wood panels nailed on) costs about as much as a "real" house in Europe made of stone, with heating and insulation, which you pay off with halved wages. Which means, NZlers actually never own their houses, but pay "rent" to the banks all their lives. Pretending to be more than one is, is a big sport here.
> 
> Recently a lot of European immigrants have been chased out of the country after they were fired and lost their work visas. It was a little national scandal going through the leading papers, Currently New Zealand is loosing many of the foreign skilled laborers they so feverishly tried bring into the country in the past years. Also 40.000 Kiwis leave for Australia every year (which is a lot with a population of 4 million), because of the bad wages while government agencies stall applications of immigrants. What you have heard about "better have a job before coming to NZ" is a result of of that blind, confused nationalistic activism. The job situation is especially bad for everyone "skilled" like Ad and Media professionals, teachers, consultants or other office or class room professionals. There are many stories of Europeans and US citizens being mobbed and excluded from positions which are continuously advertised as free. This is not Europe or the US, so being forced to work under inhumane conditions or being subjected to mobbing and racist jokes or being excluded based on gender, race or nationality is not something you can bring to court here. It is more likely that the police will come to your house to harass you, because one of his cousins works in the same office with you and heard that you had been complaining about NZ (when all you might have said is that you are freezing at your desk because the room is unheated and that this is something that could not happen in Europe)
> 
> Under such conditions, should you still try to get a work visa from Europe or the US before coming here? Why not, but it might not be worth the paper that it is written on, because you can easily spent 6 months to a year here (finance with your own money) without being hired (despite several jobs available you would be a perfect match for) and then you have to return anyway. And you couldn't even enjoy the beach, because you are burning away your savings and subjecing yourself to unjust treatment and a world of abuse where you as a person count little. If you really need to be in this country, come here for three months on a tourist visa in a test run, and see if you could get a job in your line of work and if the money would be enough and if you can stand the "socialist economy" attitudes, store inventory, housing, and the constant degrading comments about foreigners meant to be funny, but that just get on every immigrants nerves never after the 10th time while you degrade to just another NZ cash cow. The over-eagerly nice NZ people that do everything for paying tourists are the same people that will harass and ignore anyone who attempts to settle down here and take away "their" jobs.
> 
> In any case NZ itself is always the winner, financially, but at what cost. I shudder when I think about what moral values NZ destroys, just for a short-sighted, greedy gain of undoubtedly heavy immigrant savings. And if you see yourself in old age and think about your contribution to the world, is it really the right thing to do to spend your life supporting a degrading, nature and value destroying little country with low morale? I'm not a social worker or doctor, but the thought of me supporting this country by living here, while I see what it does to people and nature, and values is something that has gotten to me over the past two years. I don't think anyone serious about not only their carbon but also their "moral" footprint wants to have that on their conscience. And also, even if you get used to being the immigrant idiot everyone takes advantage of (especially when you are an intellectual and skilled and like doing a good job), and eventually learn to steal and bribe and cheat your way up the NZ social ladder "Number 8 wire" style (because there is no other way to do it), can you get over the fact that you've been compromised by a society where dishonesty is a high moral value?. How much can you enjoy a nice beach so that you forget that constant bad feeling in your stomach of supporting the wrong cause in a place far away from friends, family and decency? Europe and the US are not great achievements of mankind in many ways, but at least, they're not prop countries, a film set where everything looks like the real thing, but isn't. The only real thing here is the nature, and it comes down to living in a "Dharma Initiative" tropical camp that rewards the ones that bribe, steal, cheat, kill and torment, and slowly destroys the honest people.


----------



## Eleisha

topcat83 said:


> Comment from better half on the article - 'if it was that expensive none of us would be able to afford to live here - and we obviously can'


 But isn't that one of the reasons why so many people are leaving? it was for us and we're average Joes.

Out of interest - do you have a mortgage or did you use the capital from your house sale to buy your home outright?

I saw yesterday that the average weekly cost of a mortgage in Auckland is $572.47 - 70.5 % of the region's average weekly take home pay. That sounds like severely unaffordable to me

$572pw: Auckland's mortgages soar - New Zealand - NZ Herald News

Other regions of the country are more affordable, so it depends on where you end up living.

I guess that the trick to making it work in New Zealand is to reduce your outgoings as much as possible - either by moving somewhere really cheap or bringing as much money as possible with you.

The trouble is that us migrants are part of the problem - buying over priced houses and pushing the values up. It happens here too to some extent but a greater supply of quality homes and higher wages means that relative prices aren't too bad.

The other problem is that Australians are buying up investment properties in New Zealand because of the lack of stamp duty and high rental returns. That also pushes up property prices.


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## Eleisha

*Compare Costs of Living*

I've just found this really cool cost of living calculator, to see if it works I've compared the cost of living between the capitals of NZ and Australia.

Cost Of Living Comparison Between Wellington, New Zealand And Canberra, Australia

The results are very interesting:
*
Indexes Difference	*
Consumer Prices in Canberra are 4.06% lower than in Wellington

Consumer Prices Including Rent in Canberra are 15.27% lower than in Wellington

Rent Prices in Canberra are 40.81% lower than in Wellington

Restaurant Prices in Canberra are 14.99% lower than in Wellington

Groceries Prices in Canberra are 38.19% higher than in Wellington

Local Purchasing Power in Canberra is 40.96% higher than in Wellington


Wow! but the differences between Auckland and Christchurch are crazy look at that purchasing power (note there is no comparison of mortgages)

*Indexes Difference*
Consumer Prices in Christchurch are 14.34% higher than in Auckland

Consumer Prices Including Rent in Christchurch are 12.68% higher than in Auckland

Rent Prices in Christchurch are 8.06% higher than in Auckland

Restaurant Prices in Christchurch are 1.31% higher than in Auckland

Groceries Prices in Christchurch are 3.24% higher than in Auckland

Local Purchasing Power in Christchurch is 41.36% lower than in Auckland


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## Song_Si

Hi

Canberra v Wellington. While they are both capital cities this isn't a good comparison. Canberra a purpose built 'centre of govt' - very few would choose to live there if not employed by the Australian government or in a business that benefits from having such a captive population of well paid public servants; inland and culturally dead - the only good things going for it are having Sydney and Melbourne within a day's travel. 

Not defending Wellington, just my observation that these 'stats' are not a reasonable comparison.


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## Eleisha

Song_Si said:


> Hi
> 
> Canberra v Wellington. While they are both capital cities this isn't a good comparison. Canberra a purpose built 'centre of govt' - very few would choose to live there if not employed by the Australian government or in a business that benefits from having such a captive population of well paid public servants; inland and culturally dead - the only good things going for it are having Sydney and Melbourne within a day's travel.
> 
> Not defending Wellington, just my observation that these 'stats' are not a reasonable comparison.


But what would Wellington be if it didn't have the centre of government and all of the benefits that brings to the city?


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## Song_Si

it would survive as an international port/airport, transport route to the south, largest city in lower NI - just as Chch does for SI. Canberra was created for a purpose and would revert to a pub, a gas station, a general store and farmland! 
Personally thin Auckland deserves to have all the politicians.


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## Guest

I have just moved to New Zealand from UK. Free advice to all people who are reading this is.... 

Do not believe all that is said on here. Although i have been here almost 3 weeks i can for sure tell New Zealand is much better by far than UK, the streets are cleaner and quite and things are straight forward than in the UK. I personally found Kiwis to be very generous and welcoming too than people in Britain. 

Houses are not all that bad as people are saying in this forum. of course you need to shop around/ view few houses/flat/unit before you commit to one as you can get some which are in poor conditions and to be frankly you can get those type of house in uk too. 

And your all ur information.. I am nor a British or a kiwi.. so my comments are based on natural grounds with no favour to any of the side, are purely based on my experience in UK and NZ so far.

hope this will help few


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## YoungsSpecialLondon

Eleisha said:


> I saw yesterday that the average weekly cost of a mortgage in Auckland is $572.47 - 70.5 % of the region's average weekly take home pay. That sounds like severely unaffordable to me
> 
> $572pw: Auckland's mortgages soar - New Zealand - NZ Herald News


It's not good, even though doesn't reflect family income. 1 person full time @ $800 per week plus 1 person half-time @ $400 per week leaves $628 for groceries, bills, petrol, savings and so on. That doesn't strike me as a lot for a family with children, although Working for Families would add a bit.

Woe betide anyone who loses a job.


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## Eleisha

It's a scary thought, especially as new migrants with PR can't claim unemployment benefits until they've been in NZ for a couple of years. I think people on temporary work permits can't claim anything at all  and have to leave if they don't have a job.


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## Song_Si

Houses. 
I've lived in some old ones in NZ that fit some of the descriptions given, mainly - cold/no insulation.
Our last house in Wellington I have no complaints about. Built in 2000, natural wool insulation in exterior walls and ceiling cavity, a DVS (ventilation and air filtration/circulation system) throughout, quality aluminium joinery and glazing, built three-levels on a hillside for maximum sun. Had underfloor heating in lounge/dining we had it set from 3-6pm in winter to take the chill off when we got home, that was enough. It featured in 'Healthy Homes' magazine (unsure if that is still printed?).
This was Owhiro Bay on the south coast; for the same price around 500k we could have bought a cheap house in 'trendy' Ngaio/Khandallah and been living in a 1930s wooden bungalow, damp for 10 months of the year, heaters and dehumidifiers running - as so many of our friends chose to.
I had asthma and bronchial problems since teen years. Within a year of moving to a new house I was off the daily medication I'd been on over 20yrs, and eventually off all inhalers. Now live Thailand and no issues with cold here (!).


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## topcat83

Song_Si said:


> ....Personally think Auckland deserves to have all the politicians.


Nooooo..... Wellington can keep them!


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## YoungsSpecialLondon

Quite a few Victorian houses in Wellington actually have corrugated iron up their sides.

You'd think that would encourage the politicians to take a few more steps to improve the quality of the housing stock... but no. I'd like to have a new house, but I'm simply too scared of getting a leaky home. I had a conversation with a lawyer whose work basically involves litigating leaky homes claims. He says they're still being built.


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## Rochelle

Eleisha said:


> It's a scary thought, especially as new migrants with PR can't claim unemployment benefits until they've been in NZ for a couple of years. I think people on temporary work permits can't claim anything at all  and have to leave if they don't have a job.


I don't understand why you think they should be able to? Surely it is not reasonable to come to another country and expect their (heavily taxed) citizens to support migrants while they look for work?! (Or it on their arses for that matter). 

It is also not reasonable to come over on a 'work' permit and NOT work and expect another countries govt and citizens to pay for you to live?!


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## topcat83

YoungsSpecialLondon said:


> Quite a few Victorian houses in Wellington actually have corrugated iron up their sides.
> 
> You'd think that would encourage the politicians to take a few more steps to improve the quality of the housing stock... but no. I'd like to have a new house, but I'm simply too scared of getting a leaky home. I had a conversation with a lawyer whose work basically involves litigating leaky homes claims. He says they're still being built.


I don't think corrugated iron per se is a problem. it depends what state it's in. And if it's Victorian it's probably considered a historic monument 

If you had a new house built now, it is extremely unlikely you'd get a leaky home. Leaky homes were from a scandalous time in New Zealand's building history (generally the 1990's), where the building regs were changed to allow houses with untreated wood, no eaves and monolithic cladding to be built. The regulations have now been severely tightened up. We've been investigating building a new house recently and have been very impressed with the quality of build that we've seen


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## topcat83

Song_Si said:


> Houses.
> I've lived in some old ones in NZ that fit some of the descriptions given, mainly - cold/no insulation.
> Our last house in Wellington I have no complaints about. Built in 2000, natural wool insulation in exterior walls and ceiling cavity, a DVS (ventilation and air filtration/circulation system) throughout, quality aluminium joinery and glazing, built three-levels on a hillside for maximum sun. Had underfloor heating in lounge/dining we had it set from 3-6pm in winter to take the chill off when we got home, that was enough. It featured in 'Healthy Homes' magazine (unsure if that is still printed?).
> This was Owhiro Bay on the south coast; for the same price around 500k we could have bought a cheap house in 'trendy' Ngaio/Khandallah and been living in a 1930s wooden bungalow, damp for 10 months of the year, heaters and dehumidifiers running - as so many of our friends chose to.
> I had asthma and bronchial problems since teen years. Within a year of moving to a new house I was off the daily medication I'd been on over 20yrs, and eventually off all inhalers. Now live Thailand and no issues with cold here (!).


PS Song Si - are you the same Song Shi who was the author of http://www.chranz.co.nz/pdfs/leaky-home-stigma.pdf, written in 2003? It made for some good reading...


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## Eleisha

Rochelle said:


> I don't understand why you think they should be able to? Surely it is not reasonable to come to another country and expect their (heavily taxed) citizens to support migrants while they look for work?! (Or it on their arses for that matter).
> 
> It is also not reasonable to come over on a 'work' permit and NOT work and expect another countries govt and citizens to pay for you to live?!


Oh I agree with you, believe me, it's a risk that we were prepared to take and we knew the consequences. I can't help but feel some pity for the ones that are genuinely trying and are a long way from home, there but for the grace of god etc..


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## Song_Si

topcat83 said:


> PS Song Si - are you the same Song Shi who was the author of http://www.chranz.co.nz/pdfs/leaky-home-stigma.pdf, written in 2003? It made for some good reading...


no, not me - that's quite a report; my 'Song Si' is the name of the area I live in Thailand

When I bought the house I mentioned above, I was fortunate to have a family member working for the govt analysis of leaky building problems (now renamed Dept Building & Housing) , and took advice on an extensive and independent builders report - from someone who knew what to look for. It paid for itself in that when we came to sell I was able to provide this report along with a recent independent valuation to prospective buyers. There were houses in our street - the subdivision began in 1999, that were having their exterior monolithic cladding removed by 2005 - rotten inside, and many others were showing signs before I left early 2009.

In many cases it is quite obvious, used to go walking and say '_that one, that one . . .'_ often an early sign on the shaded side of the house is that you can see a faint outline of the wood framing behind the cladding - despite the paint it still shows, There are hundreds in the south Wellington area, all in that 'monolithic cladding', and with minimal eaves, the design and materials should have been banned years ago.

Yet as other posters have pointed out, people persist in using it. We have friends in Aotea who built new last year, looks pretty, but it is still cladding and I wouldn't go near it if looking to buy.

Now I'm in a Thai house built 1972, and hardwood/teak exterior, and as standard the eaves are 1m sometimes more, when it rains the walls stay fairly dry, you can walk around the house without getting too wet, and in summer provides shade for cooling. Simple concept! No need for my wool insulation though.


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## Song_Si

Rochelle said:


> I don't understand why you think they should be able to? Surely it is not reasonable to come to another country and expect their (heavily taxed) citizens to support migrants while they look for work?! (Or it on their arses for that matter).
> 
> It is also not reasonable to come over on a 'work' permit and NOT work and expect another countries govt and citizens to pay for you to live?!


I don't know of a country that would give immediate 'welfare benefits' except in the case of genuine refugees?
An NZer heading to Oz faces a 2yr wait for unemployment assistance, whereas once they could simply cross the Tasman and sign on for a paid beach holiday (not that I ever did such a thing in the 80s!)


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## PomBear

song_si said:


> i don't know of a country that would give immediate 'welfare benefits' except in the case of genuine refugees?
> An nzer heading to oz faces a 2yr wait for unemployment assistance, whereas once they could simply cross the tasman and sign on for a paid beach holiday (not that i ever did such a thing in the 80s!)


the uk!


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## jojo

PomBear said:


> the uk!


I think the UK only gives immediate welfare benefits to refugees/asylum seekers! I believe its a myth that you can arrive in the UK, go to the DSS and get anything! You need to have made payments into the system by way of working and obtaining a National insurance card/number. Altho once you have, you're covered! You need an address in the UK to get health cover


I could be wrong, but thats my understanding

Jo xxx


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## PomBear

There are downsides to every country and within that country the negatives change within different areas, every area even the good ones have bad parts, and then there's you, your perceptions and perspective of your area defines your idea of your surroundings and your point of view.
I currently live in a small quaint village in the north of england, so far this year there have been five murders in this village ( 2 shootings 3 stabbings ) none of which have been reported in any national newspaper (because they're just normal murders lol). I moved to this area to get away from a bad one in the city (much much worse than where I live now) the thing that scares me the most isn't the crime (although it's a concern) it's my and everyone else's attitude of acceptance towards it, when murder within your so called community becomes a normal everyday event It's time to re-evaluate your life.
Until 2005 I thought outsiders reactions to the level of crime where I lived was bizarre, to me it was a normal way of life it wasn't until we went travelling round newzealand for a year that my eyes were truly opened, from my perspective NZ doesn't even have crime it's laughable by comparison, we stayed in dargaville for quite a while and the gangs there are quite a nice bunch of lads.
In the year we were there all we saw was beautiful surroundings, the nicest people I've ever met (strangers actually spoke to us including) a much more laid back approach to life, there are problems but for me they pale by comparison, we completely embraced the NZ way of life and everything fell into place, It was heart wrenching leaving.
I don't have rose tinted glasses I'd love a pair unfortunately growing up where I did turns you into a bit of a negative paranoid obsessive, you have to be a realist to survive.
It's taken five years but we're about ready, we're hoping to be emigrating next year.
Can't wait to get back home


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## PomBear

jojo said:


> I think the UK only gives immediate welfare benefits to refugees/asylum seekers! I believe its a myth that you can arrive in the UK, go to the DSS and get anything! You need to have made payments into the system by way of working and obtaining a National insurance card/number. Altho once you have, you're covered! You need an address in the UK to get health cover
> 
> 
> I could be wrong, but thats my understanding
> 
> Jo xxx


refugees/asylum seekers or anyone within the EU, if you're classed as no fixed abode (just got here) you're given accommodation immediately in the form of a hostel for singles or family unit (self contained flat) for families, within 14 days your usually given a choice of houses and areas to live, national health cover starts immediately benefits are back dated as soon as processed.


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## Rochelle

Don't get me wrong I am all for helping asylum seekers.... But to get a visa to work in the UK kiwis (this is part of the youth mobility scheme by the way) need something like GBP5000 and a ticket home (not to mention 90 days of waiting for the visa). 

No way we could show up, work for a week and stop work and get assistance.. thats why we need the $ and ticket home!


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## PomBear

Rochelle said:


> Don't get me wrong I am all for helping asylum seekers.... But to get a visa to work in the UK kiwis (this is part of the youth mobility scheme by the way) need something like GBP5000 and a ticket home (not to mention 90 days of waiting for the visa).
> 
> No way we could show up, work for a week and stop work and get assistance.. thats why we need the $ and ticket home!


I've spent time living and working within some third world country's and I completely understand (real third world country's pic if your reading this) the need for asylum, but unfortunately we are far too lax in the UK and the system is open to abuse from free loaders (from both here and abroad), which now has resulted partly in the situation the country is in (the toilet), this country is socially and economically broken, I personally believe it will take generations to put right if at all possible.

Back to topic, everywhere has downsides it doesn't mean that all the downsides will involve you, you can live anywhere and be lucky enough not to be a victim of crime or get a job instantly or find the perfect home or you can live in the best area in the world and be unlucky, if you go hunting for negatives you'll find them in abundance anywhere.


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## Rochelle

The difference between a real third world country and NZ makes a laughable comparison. 

NZ is much like the UK for their own residents and you don't actually ever HAVE to work, you can leave school, go on a benefit, have kids, be given a house to live in etc etc. 

In real third world countries you have homeless.. who unlike NZ are not homeless by choice but because they have no choice, no food, no water. 

And yes. I agree... I also think a big part of being an expat is.. if you want it to be the same as home... stay home.  
If you want to go and experience another culture/situation etc. Then go in with a smile and your eyes wide open and be open to the culture.


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## Eleisha

You must be very aware of the differences living in the UAE as it's very different to New Zealand.

I suspect the problem people have adapting to New Zealand is that it's so similar to their home country that they expect it to be the same, it can come as a shock to realise it's not.

Having said that I found it very easy to settle into Australia and feel very much at home here.


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## CanterburyChick

I would suggest to anyone who is looking to emigrate to New Zealand to come for a fact finding trip first - it will be less of a shock for you and you won't be coming with your eyes closed or having rose tinted glasses on!

New Zealand can't be compared to anywhere else in the world (and that goes for other countries). Its a country in its own rights, has its own culture etc.

You either like it or you don't. If its not right stay where you are or try somewhere else. No-where is Utopia and we all require different things out of life.


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## jenswaters

CanterburyChick said:


> I would suggest to anyone who is looking to emigrate to New Zealand to come for a fact finding trip first - it will be less of a shock for you and you won't be coming with your eyes closed or having rose tinted glasses on!
> 
> New Zealand can't be compared to anywhere else in the world (and that goes for other countries). Its a country in its own rights, has its own culture etc.
> 
> You either like it or you don't. If its not right stay where you are or try somewhere else. No-where is Utopia and we all require different things out of life.


EXCELLENT advice!!!!! I hope that people accept that for some, this place is heaven-sent, whilst for others it is too disappointing. We are all different, all have different needs, and should all accept this.

And here endeth the lesson!!


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## CanterburyChick

jenswaters said:


> EXCELLENT advice!!!!! I hope that people accept that for some, this place is heaven-sent, whilst for others it is too disappointing. We are all different, all have different needs, and should all accept this.
> 
> And here endeth the lesson!!




Totally agree


----------



## Weebie

Actually the UK doesn't let than many immigrants in comapred to Australia or New Zealand that's a myth.

Without immigration the UK would be alot oworse than it is economically.


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## CanterburyChick

Weebie said:


> Actually the UK doesn't let than many immigrants in comapred to Australia or New Zealand that's a myth.
> 
> Without immigration the UK would be alot oworse than it is economically.




Having lived there for the last 33 years I would beg to differ but thats OK as we're all allowed our own opinion


----------



## PomBear

CanterburyChick said:


> Having lived there for the last 33 years I would beg to differ but thats OK as we're all allowed our own opinion


Me too!


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## jenswaters

Weebie said:


> Actually the UK doesn't let than many immigrants in comapred to Australia or New Zealand that's a myth.
> 
> Without immigration the UK would be a lot oworse than it is economically.


Maybe, but the UK has a startling number of asylum seekers...maybe that is the reason for some of the complaints??? They are categorised differently from "immigrants" like in NZ and Australia, and I think it is this category of people that many of the complaints made in this thread are about. But that's just my interpretation!


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## topcat83

jenswaters said:


> Maybe, but the UK has a startling number of asylum seekers...maybe that is the reason for some of the complaints??? They are categorised differently from "immigrants" like in NZ and Australia, and I think it is this category of people that many of the complaints made in this thread are about. But that's just my interpretation!


And we mustn't forget, there are some genuine refugees too. My son had two Afghani friends when he was at middle School in the UK (about 10 years ago) - one a Moslem and one a Seikh. The stories they told of their lives were horrendous. The Moslem was protecting his village from the Taleban with a rifle at the age of 8, and the Seikh's family literally escaped with their lives and not much else. These guys were real refugees, who need all the help they could get.


----------



## jenswaters

topcat83 said:


> And we mustn't forget, there are some genuine refugees too. My son had two Afghani friends when he was at middle School in the UK (about 10 years ago) - one a Moslem and one a Seikh. The stories they told of their lives were horrendous. The Moslem was protecting his village from the Taleban with a rifle at the age of 8, and the Seikh's family literally escaped with their lives and not much else. These guys were real refugees, who need all the help they could get.


For sure. It's pretty scary the lives that people live in other parts of the world. Some of the cases I came across whilst teaching were heart-breaking. 1 boy I taught had witnessed the rape and murder of his relatives (male and female)....he was the only survivor. 

I feel for the people who are genuine, as the opinions that are made based on those people that are NOT genuine make it even harder for their transition. It is a sad fact of human nature that we tend to create opinions of categories of people based on just a few.


----------



## jaxL7

pic said:


> Do I really have to explain what fanaticism is now? Fanaticism is a state of mind where someone mixes self esteem with an abstract idea (a belief, a country, a theory etc). The technique to make someone mix up love of a country with self-love is used in the military to make a soldier die for the country, and it is understandable in historic context why this is done. Here, the absurdity is that the fanatic happy clappers in this forum don't get paid, don't get any medals and have no other advantages except an artificial sense of pride or honor they are unable to experience on their own.
> 
> So if I say something negative about the country NZ, a fanatic takes it as if it was an attack on a person, or a group of people, or him personally. Because normally, unless someone was actually committing all the things that I criticized: littering, scamming etc, why would a person get all emotional about it? So if someone does get emotional, he either did commit all or some of these things himself, or he's a fanatic. Neither of the two have a place in a modern society which NZ claims to be. Fanatic behavior combined with the "we against the rest" island mentality, and you got yourself a self-proclaimed civilian army. Just what the world needs. More aggressive honor-junkies in search for any opportunity to separate people based on nationality, race, gender or ideas, and not based on justice and value of work, as is common in countries NZ tries to compete with.
> 
> In Europe and the US, the standard middle class person, like me, doesn't feel personally offended if someone says anything bad about a country, their own or any other, especially if there are facts to back it up. "We" don't connect self-esteem with a nation but with personal achievement. Pride alone without personal achievement doesn't make for a good citizen, either. Adhering to country rules does, at which Kiwis are particularly bad at. And again, this is not about people "visiting" NZ, but about professionals being giving a PR by the NZ government and then immigrating, based on false information. A different thing. Paying attention helps to follow subjects.
> 
> Elphaba's trick to reduce the facts to the personal experience of an individual who "wasn't successful enough" is questionable. I can see what Elphaba intended with that remark: that I feel like some sort of looser for not "making it" (again, one of the mantras "I didn't try hard enough") thus blaming a whole country for my own failure. But if you've already made it in other countries, and have job offers in NZ, and earn good money with the quality of your work, here and overseas, and have qualifications that are recognized in other countries, not just NZ, this trick just doesn't work. It would work on someone who has little skills or qualifications or professionalism and needs to inflate himself with national pride to feel good, but it just doesn't work on the professionals that NZ has called into the country with free PRs. All that happens is that I see how much this post goes "under the belt line" to attack personally, where one would expect arguments. More fanatic blurbs, this time combined with manipulative personal attacks. Great. More of what makes NZ such a "great place" to live in.
> 
> And while you are stomping around with hurt citizen's pride, did it ever occur to you, that those fellow NZ citizens Topcat so generously included in this "we" actually pay him and most other Kiwis half wages, then charge them up the nose for all the nice consumer products, while you guys stumble over yourself here in a desperate attempt to defend some sort of Kiwi honor that has no benefits for you but a soft, cuddly feeling of belonging. Your fellow Kiwi buddies also sell you second rate products that don't sell in Europe and the US. Meanwhile your Kiwi buddies are in their million dollar houses on Hawaii, in the States or in Australia, rubbing their hands and laughing at the naiveté of the old and new citizens. Fanaticism is good business. You guys are even spending your own free time on forums to defend the system that keeps you in poverty. Good on you mate, for being such devoted Kiwi sect soldier, but there are other people who just want to be normal citizens, not sect members.


We are in the very early days of exploring moving to NZ, and sadly I find your post both patronising and rude. You are clearly unhappy and should consider moving on ASAP.


----------



## PomBear

jaxL7 said:


> We are in the very early days of exploring moving to NZ, and sadly I find your post both patronising and rude. You are clearly unhappy and should consider moving on ASAP.


I agree, I can't understand why people didn't like her/he in NZ lol. Try relocating to the US the UK already has enough idiots!


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## CanterburyChick

The trouble is we all want different things out of life and if moving to a country (any country) doesn't tick all our unrealistic boxes people start to criticize that particular country. Generally people move because they are unhappy with life in their country of origin, they are searching for something different and thats OK.

In the area in which I work I often find those that come to New Zealand (and again this can be interpreted to any country) with no real thought behind it, often have a shock because whilst New Zealanders speak the same lingo their culture is very different.

And at the end of the day if you've done a whole load of research and you still find its not for you (and I always suggest to clients give it at least 2 years), then that OK - either go back to your country of origin or keep searching for another country that ticks all the boxes.

Whilst we are all totally entitled to our own opinions some of the rants that are posted on a forum are filled with dissatisfaction and this in turn breeds toxic posts - most of which are unhelpful. There are those however that can , in an un-biased way, lay out areas which have not worked for them or have come as a shock. When moving to any country you do need to hear good and bad comments and again I often recommend to clients, where funds allow, to make a recce (fact finding trip) to that country to see for yourself.

It is a big move wherever you go in the world, especially when you are moving children, so you really need to have done some homework.

Saying that no amount of research can fully prepare you for life in a new country so a lot of it really is 'suck and see'.

So JaxL7 keep asking questions, we'll be honest and give you a realistic point of view.

I for one like living in New Zealand, its not Utopia but we have a great life here and my daughter absolutely loves it. However - I also like travelling to other countries - having just spent a very mad 5 days in Sydney with 3 other girlfriends has satisfied the 'shopaholic in me' and I will definitely be going back


----------



## YoungsSpecialLondon

> So JaxL7 keep asking questions, we'll be honest and give you a realistic point of view.
> 
> I for one like living in New Zealand, its not Utopia ...


Likewise.

I simply don't recognise that picture being painted by pic. Emigrating is, of course, tough, and I don't think anyone should criticise those for whom it doesn't work.

But it's a bad idea to rely on what such people say as gospel.


----------



## Song_Si

I worked in recruitment in NZ, mainly international recruitment of professionals in occupations of the immigration dept's priority occupations list. 

Maybe _The Lord of The Rings_ movies were to blame, as in some cases watching them was the sum total of a person's desire to relocate. Maybe expecting cute little hobbits . . . mountains and wide open spaces - yet then complaining about the lack of malls/shopping centres. 

I'd suggest anyone considering the move, read the online newspapers every day, Stuff.co.nz - Latest New Zealand News & World News, Sports News & NZ Weather Forecasts is a good start, with links to provincial newspapers. 

The naivete of expecting no crime, a tropical climate, friendly neighbours popping over with baskets of flowers and home cooking, Maori in grass skirts doing a haka on the lawn . . . as if.

The reality is a country of a little over 4 million people spread over an area only 10% bigger than the UK with its (?) 65 million people.


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## Gimme5

jaxL7 said:


> We are in the very early days of exploring moving to NZ, and sadly I find your post both patronising and rude. You are clearly unhappy and should consider moving on ASAP.


What can I say, the French are a passionate people. Besides, not everyone disagrees with him. Not everyone wants to hear only the good stuff. Hope it works out for you when your turn comes.


----------



## p&b

Good grief! The original poster in this thread is sickening. "Pic" you are clearly heavily intoxicated with a serious chip on your shoulder. After reading your first post I am half convinced you are a just a hoax, posting on this forum to get a laugh.

If that is not the case and you diatribes are serious, you should attempt to post true facts to support your statements and avoid making sweeping generalizations about things you clearly don't understand. Since people like *siddiqmohsin* take what is said on this forum seriously, people have to respond and put what you said in its place.

A couple key examples:

"quite feeble and bribe/nepotism-riddled economy"

New Zealand has a modern, developed and prosperous economy and a relatively high standard of living with an estimated GDP per capita of US$31,067 in 2010, comparable to that of Southern Europe. NZ was ranked 20th on the 2009 Human Development Index and 15th in The Economist's 2005 worldwide quality-of-life index. Additionally, the country was ranked 1st in education and 5th in overall prosperity in the 2010 Legatum Institute prosperity index.

New Zealand scored second lowest on the international Corruption Perceptions Index (CPI) "the degree to which corruption is perceived to exist among public officials and politicians" after Denmark and above Singapore.

In a survey of the OECD amongst 30 democratic nations, New Zealand ranked an above-average 8th place in terms of the happiness of its populace (defined by the averaged responses to questions about personal contentment and positive feelings experienced recently) even though the country was noted as ranking relatively low amongst the surveyed nations in personal wealth (defined by averaged personal income).

"[In] the US, the standard middle class person, like me, doesn't feel personally offended if someone says anything bad about a country"

You have _*clearly *_ never been to the U.S if you believe this to be true. Bashing someone else's country as you have done here will obviously cause insult.

Although I've only hit the tip of your iceburg, hopefully this and other genuine and balanced posts on this thread will help people realise the extent of your vitriolic statements. 

I'd sum up exactly as Canterburychick did: "New Zealand isn't utopia - you don't move here to 'get rich quick'. You move here for the slower pace of life, a great quality of outdoor living and to give children an opportunity of having a longer childhood (in my opinion). Wherever you move to in the world you have to respect the fact that you are an immigrant to that country and that you respect its values and culture."

Like piperchic, if anyone wants on-the-ground information from NZ, please don't hesistate to message me. Hell, you can call me +64 27-328-0647. That includes you Pic. I'd enjoy discussing your posts on the phone.

Phil


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## Song_Si

p&b said:


> Good grief!


Phil I can only agree . . . but I think pointless to respond. 

The corruption one has been in the news here, good old Thailand dropped from 80 to 84 in world rankings . . . having spent most of my working life in NZ gov't agencies, the final 10 in Wellington (looking down on the Beehive!), there have been very few incidences of what would rate as corruption - more likely to be from an elected politician (Try Philip Taito-Field or David Garrett) than from a public servant.

It's a choice, and I am repeating myself yet again, but some people do not do their research, move to NZ expecting some kind of dreamland/paradise . . . it has its flaws as do other countries. Just read the news, there's nothing 'hidden'.

cheers and I hope you're enjoying the NZ experience.


----------



## Gimme5

p&b said:


> Good grief! The original poster in this thread is sickening. "Pic" you are clearly heavily intoxicated with a serious chip on your shoulder. After reading your first post I am half convinced you are a just a hoax, posting on this forum to get a laugh.
> 
> If that is not the case and you diatribes are serious, you should attempt to post true facts to support your statements and avoid making sweeping generalizations about things you clearly don't understand. Since people like *siddiqmohsin* take what is said on this forum seriously, people have to respond and put what you said in its place.
> 
> A couple key examples:
> 
> "quite feeble and bribe/nepotism-riddled economy"
> 
> New Zealand has a modern, developed and prosperous economy and a relatively high standard of living with an estimated GDP per capita of US$31,067 in 2010, comparable to that of Southern Europe. NZ was ranked 20th on the 2009 Human Development Index and 15th in The Economist's 2005 worldwide quality-of-life index. Additionally, the country was ranked 1st in education and 5th in overall prosperity in the 2010 Legatum Institute prosperity index.
> 
> New Zealand scored second lowest on the international Corruption Perceptions Index (CPI) "the degree to which corruption is perceived to exist among public officials and politicians" after Denmark and above Singapore.
> 
> In a survey of the OECD amongst 30 democratic nations, New Zealand ranked an above-average 8th place in terms of the happiness of its populace (defined by the averaged responses to questions about personal contentment and positive feelings experienced recently) even though the country was noted as ranking relatively low amongst the surveyed nations in personal wealth (defined by averaged personal income).
> 
> "[In] the US, the standard middle class person, like me, doesn't feel personally offended if someone says anything bad about a country"
> 
> You have _*clearly *_ never been to the U.S if you believe this to be true. Bashing someone else's country as you have done here will obviously cause insult.
> 
> Although I've only hit the tip of your iceburg, hopefully this and other genuine and balanced posts on this thread will help people realise the extent of your vitriolic statements.
> 
> I'd sum up exactly as Canterburychick did: "New Zealand isn't utopia - you don't move here to 'get rich quick'. You move here for the slower pace of life, a great quality of outdoor living and to give children an opportunity of having a longer childhood (in my opinion). Wherever you move to in the world you have to respect the fact that you are an immigrant to that country and that you respect its values and culture."
> 
> Like piperchic, if anyone wants on-the-ground information from NZ, please don't hesistate to message me. Hell, you can call me +64 27-328-0647. That includes you Pic. I'd enjoy discussing your posts on the phone.
> 
> Phil


Why do you guys feel a need to get all worked up and personal just because someone holds an opinion that differs from yours. He's got an opinion on the country based on his own personal experiences and chose to put it across in a manner that is reflective of his own sentiments. Many would agree with his views to a certain extent and yes, most would suspect that he may be embellishing it. But so what? Big deal. I thought that's what freedom of expression is all about. How else we are to get some entertainment on these boring forums? Some people have encountered particularly nasty and unfortunate experiences when they first arrived in the country, who are we to judge? I think posters here are intelligent enough to be able to form their own conclusions based on everything they read. Some love it here, some hate it. COOL!

Have to agree with Song Si, part of the problem is expectation. I think NZ has been over sold with LOTR and that 100% Pure marketing BS. A friend from the UK who moved here once said to me, "it's more like 100% Pure Con".  As for me, if you've sufficient financial resources (or plan to be a dole bludger) and just want to take it easy, cruise and enjoy the outdoors, NZ lifestyle is great. If you want a progressive, vibrant, world class city brimming with optimism and opportunities, then you'll need to ask the 40,000 Kiwis who bought one -way tickets every year.


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## Weebie

Australia and New Zealand attracts (not everyone but alot) of people who are clearly in the lower class of society in Britain and Ireland and basically can't help but blame there old country for the fact they suck at life. With Australians and New Zealanders who migrate they are the ones who are at the cutting edge, educated and career focused who want to achieve something with there life they head to the UK and America. It's an interesting contrast.


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## CanterburyChick

A very broad statement, although I do appreciate you did say 'not everyone'!

I don't know what the split is to be honest, I must track that down for my own reference - it would be interesting to see the split of socio economic groups. The majority of clients that I deal with are investors, so naturally they have reasonably large portfolio's. Other clients move from their country of origin, and I include the UK in this as they are one of our larger markets, who are after a better life - and that doesn't always include money. We have typically found that most of these clients are professionals who just want a different pace, way of life.

I do agree however that many Kiwi's (and Ozzie's) are transferring to places such as Europe and the U.S because of wages and opportunities. What we need to do is to ensure that there is a balance in professions etc with the natural flow of immigrants coming in to those migrating out. The wages in New Zealand especially need to increase to make it more attractive to those looking to migrate here.


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## YoungsSpecialLondon

Gimme5,

Freedom of expression is all very well, but it doesn't follow that what is expressed is of any value.

When someone expresses an unsubstantiated opinion and then doesn't back it up in argument, it follows that it's not worth very much.

pic is of course free to make whatever comments he/she chooses as long as they aren't defamatory, but he/she can't complain if people then pick them to bits.


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## Gimme5

YoungsSpecialLondon said:


> Gimme5,
> 
> Freedom of expression is all very well, but it doesn't follow that what is expressed is of any value.
> 
> When someone expresses an unsubstantiated opinion and then doesn't back it up in argument, it follows that it's not worth very much.
> 
> pic is of course free to make whatever comments he/she chooses as long as they aren't defamatory, but he/she can't complain if people then pick them to bits.


"it doesn't follow that what is expressed is of any value." That's my point. It's an opinion or view, people are allowed to have them whether or not you and I agree with them. Readers can judge for themselves whether there is any value or merit in his contribution.

"pic is of course free to make whatever comments he/she chooses as long as they aren't defamatory, but he/she can't complain if people then pick them to bits". Fully agree with you on this and anyone is free to put forth their own views and counter-arguments. But there is no right or wrong, just an opinion. My point was that it's unnecessary and counter-productive to get personal and put someone down for the views that they hold in order not to turn this into a slug fest. You comment on the topic, not on the other person making a comment.


----------



## CanterburyChick

I agree - they are all opinions and as I have said countless times before (sorry if I'm sounding like a broken record) but the best opinion you can get is your own - and thats by taking a trip to New Zealand to check it out before you migrate.

At the end of the day if you were buying a car or something of high value you wouldn't just go with what other people say, you would go by what YOU think as well as you would be the one spending the money, you would of course take advice but bottom line you make the decision.

Migrating is of way greater value yet some people get bogged down by other peoples opinions and don't then form their own.

So for anyone who is still reading this thread - if you are serious about wanting to migrate to New Zealand please consider taking a recce/fact finding trip before you make the move - I know some people baulk at the extra expense but at the end of the day its far cheaper and less stressful to do that first before you ship everything here, leave family and friends - then have to do it all again in reverse and at further cost - you do the math!


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## Eleisha

I don't know if you guys have noticed but "Pic" left the room a long time ago.


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## Song_Si

*'400,000 will leave in next 15 years'*
Thursday Nov 4, 2010

New Zealand will lose another 400,000 people to Australia over the next 15 years, based on current projections of the income gap between the two countries, the 2025 taskforce says.

The taskforce, chaired by Don Brash, is charged with providing recommendations on how to close the income gap by 2025.

In its second report, released yesterday, it says OECD projections of each country's growth prospects would see the gap widen from 35 per cent to 42 per cent.

"Can we close the gap?" Brash asked yesterday. "To paraphrase President Obama [in a recent appearance on The Daily Show]: Yes we can, but it may take a little time."

Full news item here


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## dmc

Hi everyone, I'm a kiwi but haved lived abroad for most of the last 13 years - Japan, UK, US, Canada, Austria and for the last four years, Thailand. I've travelled extensively elsewhere.

I'm going to keep this short, but my main message is that 'Pic' needs a pyschologist. While there is no doubt some element of truth in many things he wrote, there were also an incredible amount of blatant lies - from National Parks and 300 ski lifts, to rental costs. To me, anyone who shamelessly lies has no credibility and I source my information elsewhere.

My advice for those considering coming to NZ is go there on holiday or short-term visa and check it out. It's not everyone's cup of tea and immigrating somewhere for the long-term without a real understanding of what you are in for is incredibly risky.

I love the country and hope to move back there soon for a few years...

Cheers


----------



## topcat83

dmc said:


> Hi everyone, I'm a kiwi but haved lived abroad for most of the last 13 years - Japan, UK, US, Canada, Austria and for the last four years, Thailand. I've travelled extensively elsewhere.
> 
> I'm going to keep this short, but my main message is that 'Pic' needs a pyschologist. While there is no doubt some element of truth in many things he wrote, there were also an incredible amount of blatant lies - from National Parks and 300 ski lifts, to rental costs. To me, anyone who shamelessly lies has no credibility and I source my information elsewhere.
> 
> My advice for those considering coming to NZ is go there on holiday or short-term visa and check it out. It's not everyone's cup of tea and immigrating somewhere for the long-term without a real understanding of what you are in for is incredibly risky.
> 
> I love the country and hope to move back there soon for a few years...
> 
> Cheers


Hi DMC - I think there are a great many of us who concur with you. It's so easy to take an element of truth and twist it out of all proportion, and I think Pic was very good at that. NZ is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination - but hopefully the rest of us try and present a balanced viewpoint. Fortunately Pic hasn't been with us for a while now...


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## Cwis

I hope Pic has sorted himself out. He just sounds very angry to me. If the USA is so good, then why look to relocate somewhere else. I have a brother living in the states, and he said it's the worst mistake he made. Wish he'd stay in Aussie or NZ.
So guess what suits some people doesn't suit others. 






pic said:


> Hm, I guess I wrote myself into a hot frenzy there in "the worlds longest forum post". Nevertheless we just came back from a trip to one of the national parks (a word that means "protected land" in other countries). Again we were forced to rethink our decision to leave NZ, when looking at the breathtaking landscape. But then we saw that "national park" means "amusement park" in NZ, with 300 Ski Lifts on land that was donated by the Maori to be protected and cherished, not to be run to the ground with tourism. (I wonder who pockets the money that is made on the sacred mountains. The Maori chief who donated the land must turn in his grave with sad rage every winter season)
> 
> And to shorten the discussion about good versus bad comments: Your view onto NZ explains itself based on where you come from. If you come from Europe and the US, NZ is 2-3 grades down in job security, housing, democratic stability, safety and earning power. When you come from other countries, it is 2-10 grades up in all those aspects. I would bet that most of the positive posts were made by people originating from India, Asia, the former Soviet Union, South America, Eastern Europe, Africa and countries with similar political/economical/social conditions (or from people who live close to the bottom of the economic ladder in Europe or the US) No problem with NZ being at the lower end of democracy, if it wasn't for the falsified statistics and misleading brand image that NZ fabricates to trick international professionals into thinking they can find adequate work here. American Guy was clever and checked the facts personally before moving here. My husband and I, we just didn't think that a government would play with the asset of the hard working professionals that are the breadwinners of each country so carelessly. That still blows my mind, but it helps to see NZ as a third world country to understand how economic desperation drives a nation to exploit and then throw away the good people instead of using them to lift NZ out of poverty.
> 
> The heart wrenching aspect about New Zealand is that just the beauty of the landscape alone would justify living here, if new Zealanders wouldn't systematically destroy everything beautiful and turn the country into a trash-littered Trailer Park, which you have to look at every day as you drive through it to work or to the stores. And even if you found a still untouched piece of land, there would already be those ugly little sections, half filled with overpriced box houses that look like a dog sheds. You know, those houses where the bath tiles are put up on the outside (to hose down the house?) and where the top of the windows touch the roof (a design that takes the European traditional style and just saves a few inches of material resulting in this ridiculous caricature of a squashed wood cabin). Ironically, with that missing space above the windows it looks like the face of someone with a very low forehead.
> 
> And now people with countries that have been striped of all wood, fish, wildlife and other natural resources have discovered NZ and are in the process of consuming it up until there is nothing left. NZ is like a gigantic, mostly unprotected national conservation park and a little paradise for all who like to fish, hunt, camp and house-build the worlds ugliest houses, as if there was no tomorrow. For someone who doesn't give a damn, life is always easy and great, ESPECIALLY in New Zealand where one can safely harvest, cut down, run down, cover with concrete and litter with garbage. Of course these people would have only good things to say about NZ but I think I wouldn't have anything good to say about them.
> 
> It's not easy to leave NZ's natural beauty behind and we'll definitely be back, but not to work and live here, only as tourists, like all others who would have helped to push NZ to world standard but instead are pushed out by the mediocre and greedy who can now again be safely amongst themselves and continue to stew in their own juices.


----------



## Eleisha

I agree he did sound upset but I think it's unfair to criticize him when he so obviously is unable to respond.

This thread has gotten a lot of attention on a site called _[deleted]_ where most of the contributors have similar complaints to Pic's, he's not the only one who feels this way. I have issues with New Zealand that I have needed to work through and it isn't as plain sailing as forums like this make out.

You really do need to do your research before emigrating to New Zealand, try to find out as much as you can about the downsides - then you can make an informed decision about whether it's right for you or not. It's too easy to fall for the 'scenery thing.'

As it turned out Australia was where we should have headed and we wasted a lot of money, and effort trying to make a go of it in NZ against the odds.

Not everyone finds it hard - it depends on where you come from and what your standards are like but you have to remember there is a good reason why only 4 millions people live in New Zealand and half a million Kiwis live in Australia and the same amount again live elsewhere in the world.

It's a great country for a holiday but for us, with teenage kids and careers to worry about, it was a total failure.

I just wish that when we were looking at New Zealand someone had said to us "hey, why not consider Australia whilst you're about it?" you may find it fits the bill a lot better.

If what they say on _[deleted]_ is true I expect that I'll be banned now for sedition and this post will be deleted 

If that happens I just want to take this opportunity whilst I can to say it's been nice knowing you all. 

Hope you manage to make it to Australia too one day Topcat as you don't sound too settled where you are.


----------



## topcat83

Eleisha said:


> I agree he did sound upset but I think it's unfair to criticize him when he so obviously is unable to respond.
> 
> This thread has gotten a lot of attention on a site called _[deleted]_ where most of the contributors have similar complaints to Pic's, he's not the only one who feels this way. I have issues with New Zealand that I have needed to work through and it isn't as plain sailing as forums like this make out.


As far as I know Pic is quite at liberty to respond - but I stick to what I say about Pic - he was very good at taking an element of the truth and bending it out of all proportion. I know you've had some problems here in NZ Eleisha, but at least you try to be balanced. And I personally do try and present what I've found truthfully. It certainly isn't paradise here!



> You really do need to do your research before emigrating to New Zealand, try to find out as much as you can about the downsides - then you can make an informed decision about whether it's right for you or not. It's too easy to fall for the 'scenery thing.'
> 
> As it turned out Australia was where we should have headed and we wasted a lot of money, and effort trying to make a go of it in NZ against the odds.
> 
> Not everyone finds it hard - it depends on where you come from and what your standards are like but you have to remember there is a good reason why only 4 millions people live in New Zealand and half a million Kiwis live in Australia and the same amount again live elsewhere in the world.
> 
> It's a great country for a holiday but for us, with teenage kids and careers to worry about, it was a total failure.
> 
> I just wish that when we were looking at New Zealand someone had said to us "hey, why not consider Australia whilst you're about it?" you may find it fits the bill a lot better.


Good advice - but balance the good things about NZ into the equation too...



> If what they say on [deleted] is true I expect that I'll be banned now for sedition and this post will be deleted


Lol! Not sure what I'm supposed to do here - I might ask the other mods for advice...



> If that happens I just want to take this opportunity whilst I can to say it's been nice knowing you all.
> 
> Hope you manage to make it to Australia too one day Topcat as you don't sound too settled where you are.


I really hope you stick around on the forum, Eleisha - your comments are just as pertinent as all the good ones.

As for me not being settled? Absolutely the wrong end of the stick, I'm afraid. I love it here. I just recognise that there will never be a perfect place but some places come closer than others!


----------



## jenswaters

Eleisha said:


> Hope you manage to make it to Australia too one day Topcat as you don't sound too settled where you are.


Yeah, wondered about this part of the post, Topcat!!!! Interesting how some people interpret the things we say. Having met you and the Other Half, I think you are having the time of your lives. NZ suits you guys down to the ground!!!

Merry Christmas, Expatters

Jen


----------



## ClemClan

Eleisha said:


> I agree he did sound upset but I think it's unfair to criticize him when he so obviously is unable to respond.
> 
> This thread has gotten a lot of attention on a site called [address deleted] where most of the contributors have similar complaints to Pic's, he's not the only one who feels this way. I have issues with New Zealand that I have needed to work through and it isn't as plain sailing as forums like this make out.
> 
> You really do need to do your research before emigrating to New Zealand, try to find out as much as you can about the downsides - then you can make an informed decision about whether it's right for you or not. It's too easy to fall for the 'scenery thing.'
> 
> As it turned out Australia was where we should have headed and we wasted a lot of money, and effort trying to make a go of it in NZ against the odds.
> 
> Not everyone finds it hard - it depends on where you come from and what your standards are like but you have to remember there is a good reason why only 4 millions people live in New Zealand and half a million Kiwis live in Australia and the same amount again live elsewhere in the world.
> 
> It's a great country for a holiday but for us, with teenage kids and careers to worry about, it was a total failure.
> 
> I just wish that when we were looking at New Zealand someone had said to us "hey, why not consider Australia whilst you're about it?" you may find it fits the bill a lot better.
> 
> If what they say on [address deleted] is true I expect that I'll be banned now for sedition and this post will be deleted
> 
> If that happens I just want to take this opportunity whilst I can to say it's been nice knowing you all.
> 
> Hope you manage to make it to Australia too one day Topcat as you don't sound too settled where you are.



Hi Eleisha - well your posted hasn't been deleted! I saw your post yesterday, and I also took a quick look at the the website you mentioned. I didn't have much time so it was just a short browse (I didn't know this site existed) and from what I did see, it wasn't good for NZ. 

I'm very sorry that things didn't work out for you in NZ and in all honesty I do understand why - it can be devastating to spend a considerable amount of money to make a new life in another country and it doesn't work out. 

I always try to keep a balanced view as you have done yourself and generally find that with me it can depend on what's going on in my life which determines how I feel and how much I enjoy living here. This can be same where ever you live. In the UK things are not great and I know my family is in a much better place in comparison. There are positives and negatives to where ever we call home, I don't believe any where is perfect. I could list all the pro's and con's but they would be my own personal view and would be different from others. 

We have experienced quite a lot since we moved here over three years ago and at times I've just wanted to get on a plane, but the rational side of me knows that that won't solve anything. Close family members have passed away and crisis situations have risen and we've simply had to ride them out, but although you consider all these things when you emigrate, nothing prepares you for when they actually happen. It's not easy to just hop on a plane when you have kids, jobs etc ...so a crisis fund would be best, as flights are expensive to pay for at the drop of hat. 

Certain things about NZ really get me down sometimes and it's these things that you either have to accept, find alternatives or just accept. Everyone comes here for different reasons and no-one should come to NZ with high expectations - scenery and fresh air (and it's fresh) is free, but everything else comes with a price. 'Money can be a huge factor' if you want to have a nice home, nice clothes and materialistic things. I know that prices in the UK are or the increase, but I also know the quality is much better for value for money. I even hand-wash some of our clothes now! And I'm not being materialistic, I just don't like paying a lot of money for things that fall apart or look old in a short space of time. I have learned where to shop, where to go and how to go about things so that I don't feel like that. But I can't do anything about the cost of electric! and when I've moved home I will be starting a veggie patch. 

The housing market has been struggling like everywhere else and it was just starting to recover in Canterbury before the earthquake. But I'm still lucky that we have a roof over our heads and the land damage will be rectified eventually. I have experienced the procedures of home buying, I hate multi-offer situations, that's got to be the worst. It's a nightmare purchasing in the UK too - there's up's and down's in the real estate process here as well. The way property is appraised is absurd. 

Anyway, I hope that you are now settled in OZ and at least you've made a move now which is good for you - better late than never. :clap2:


----------



## FrancisJames

Why did you leave Eleisha and where do you live now?


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## scubadoo

*Pic is right on!*

Dear Pic - I had to join this forum just to send you a reply. 

I just wanted to say that you are absolutely correct in everything you say. It is not just you, there are a great majority of migrants from first world Countries saying this these days. Those from India and alike think it is heaven of course!

Statements made by migrants (Some English) that costs are lower etc are just not true, they are fooling themselves. It is easy to complete an accurate cost analysis based on facts and this proves that NZ is unaffordable and a low socio-economic country. This is constantly backed up by news items showing this to be the case, such as Campbell Live on Tuesday 05.04.11. On this show a migrant from Wales said that he moved to NZ for a better life and found it..........but that was 25 years ago and it is no longer a better life in NZ.

Some migrants do find it better here and some of that depends on your personal circumstances and field of employment as well as what you are used to and expect. Often there is a role reversal with those who are poor in the UK doing well and those who are professionals with an education being pushed down. There is often a 'certain type' of person who does well in NZ and England is all the better for them leaving the UK!!
I came from the University of Oxford where I worked with Sir Walter Bodmer. My family and I have had a terrible time and I am unemployable here and get paid less than any tradesman for what jobs there are. We are leaving and fully intend to take out an extensive campaign to alert prospective migrants to the 'real NZ'. It will still suit some but at least they will all have more info than we did.

When you post negative comments about NZ you can expect a torrent of bullying and abuse. It is the kiwi way! But this does not change the facts. As you say NZ is all image and no substance, kiwis protect that image at all costs. Unfortunately they are too short sighted to see that the attitude to migration in NZ will have profoundly damaging effects on the NZ image and economy in the not so distant future. The number of people making these comments is growing exponentially and they are getting out into the world and telling people. The NZ bubble will burst!
_[deleted advertising]_
It is common here for those who complain and cause a stir to be silenced by any means necessary; this tells you everything about the people, the country and the morals. It is an immature, petty, bigoted, third world, nepocracy.

Hope you get out intact. Regards.


----------



## kiwigser

scubadoo said:


> Dear Pic - I had to join this forum just to send you a reply.
> 
> I just wanted to say that you are absolutely correct in everything you say. It is not just you, there are a great majority of migrants from first world Countries saying this these days. Those from India and alike think it is heaven of course!
> 
> Statements made by migrants (Some English) that costs are lower etc are just not true, they are fooling themselves. It is easy to complete an accurate cost analysis based on facts and this proves that NZ is unaffordable and a low socio-economic country. This is constantly backed up by news items showing this to be the case, such as Campbell Live on Tuesday 05.04.11. On this show a migrant from Wales said that he moved to NZ for a better life and found it..........but that was 25 years ago and it is no longer a better life in NZ.
> 
> Some migrants do find it better here and some of that depends on your personal circumstances and field of employment as well as what you are used to and expect. Often there is a role reversal with those who are poor in the UK doing well and those who are professionals with an education being pushed down. There is often a 'certain type' of person who does well in NZ and England is all the better for them leaving the UK!!
> I came from the University of Oxford where I worked with Sir Walter Bodmer. My family and I have had a terrible time and I am unemployable here and get paid less than any tradesman for what jobs there are. We are leaving and fully intend to take out an extensive campaign to alert prospective migrants to the 'real NZ'. It will still suit some but at least they will all have more info than we did.
> 
> When you post negative comments about NZ you can expect a torrent of bullying and abuse. It is the kiwi way! But this does not change the facts. As you say NZ is all image and no substance, kiwis protect that image at all costs. Unfortunately they are too short sighted to see that the attitude to migration in NZ will have profoundly damaging effects on the NZ image and economy in the not so distant future. The number of people making these comments is growing exponentially and they are getting out into the world and telling people. The NZ bubble will burst!
> If you Google expats and exposed you will find an interesting site with some more view points, where you will not be bullied so much. It is common here for those who complain and cause a stir to be silenced by any means necessary; this tells you everything about the people, the country and the morals. It is an immature, petty, bigoted, third world, nepocracy.
> 
> Hope you get out intact. Regards.


Goodbye


----------



## topcat83

scubadoo said:


> Dear Pic - I had to join this forum just to send you a reply.
> 
> I just wanted to say that you are absolutely correct in everything you say. It is not just you, there are a great majority of migrants from first world Countries saying this these days. Those from India and alike think it is heaven of course!
> 
> Statements made by migrants (Some English) that costs are lower etc are just not true, they are fooling themselves. It is easy to complete an accurate cost analysis based on facts and this proves that NZ is unaffordable and a low socio-economic country. This is constantly backed up by news items showing this to be the case, such as Campbell Live on Tuesday 05.04.11. On this show a migrant from Wales said that he moved to NZ for a better life and found it..........but that was 25 years ago and it is no longer a better life in NZ.
> 
> Some migrants do find it better here and some of that depends on your personal circumstances and field of employment as well as what you are used to and expect. Often there is a role reversal with those who are poor in the UK doing well and those who are professionals with an education being pushed down. There is often a 'certain type' of person who does well in NZ and England is all the better for them leaving the UK!!
> I came from the University of Oxford where I worked with Sir Walter Bodmer. My family and I have had a terrible time and I am unemployable here and get paid less than any tradesman for what jobs there are. We are leaving and fully intend to take out an extensive campaign to alert prospective migrants to the 'real NZ'. It will still suit some but at least they will all have more info than we did.
> 
> When you post negative comments about NZ you can expect a torrent of bullying and abuse. It is the kiwi way! But this does not change the facts. As you say NZ is all image and no substance, kiwis protect that image at all costs. Unfortunately they are too short sighted to see that the attitude to migration in NZ will have profoundly damaging effects on the NZ image and economy in the not so distant future. The number of people making these comments is growing exponentially and they are getting out into the world and telling people. The NZ bubble will burst!
> _[deleted advertising]_
> It is common here for those who complain and cause a stir to be silenced by any means necessary; this tells you everything about the people, the country and the morals. It is an immature, petty, bigoted, third world, nepocracy.
> 
> Hope you get out intact. Regards.


Scubadoo - I have deleted the unnecessary advertising in your post. But this forum is about allowing everyone to have their say - good and bad. So the rest stays, and you certainly won't be silenced unless you break the Forum rules.


----------



## scubadoo

*kiwigser*

Hi kiwigser - you posted a comment that I was ranting and needed to state some facts so I have. Enjoy!

Hi - yes there are good and bad points to all places but not all places heavily advertise themselves as 'the best country in the world' or godzone and bring in migrants to fill skill shortages that simply do not exist and for better pay and conditions that do not exist.

I had a meeting with a lady from the Dept of Labour last week and even she was truly horrified at the treatment and salaries we had been subjected to in Dunedin as qualified and skilled migrants.

Some of my comments are Dunedin specific, since I live here. People tell me that Dunedin is a special case and I can see some validity in this, but I can also see that many of the issues are nationwide. MAny things in Dunedin are VERY expensive including food, gas, new builds etc. I assesed the cost of building here and proved time and time again that it costs $100k more to build the house in Dunedin than anywhere else in NZ!!

Admittedly there have been good points but these have been heavily outweighed by the bad. In time, once we are away, we may look a little more fondly on our time here but right now it is all too raw. 

As for facts here are some -

*Better work/life balance - No*
People work more hours per week in NZ than the UK, usually 40 hours however NZ productivity is low as statistics and the NZ economy clearly show over decades.
In NZ people get 20 days annual leave, in the UK we get at least 38 days annual leave plus more statutory days than in NZ.
You often spend as much or often more time stuck in traffic getting to and from work in NZ as in the UK, in most centres (Not so much in Dunedin). NZ Immigration advertises that traffic and travel problems are things of the past when you move here.

*Lower cost of living - No*
Official stats clearly show that NZ has the second highest cost of living in the OECD. Only Australia is more expensive. This is well publicized in the media and on the web. It is easy to do a comparison by checking the UK prices online, it needs to be assessed as a percentage of take home pay. 
On paper you pay less tax in NZ, but you need to figure in the many items which are tax free or low tax in the UK. Doing this shows that you pay about 10% more tax in NZ depending on what you buy.
I have found the BMW index (Similar to the MacDonald’s index) to be the most accurate cost of living comparison. For me it calculates how many new 5 series BMW's I can buy per year of gross pay in the UK and in NZ it is years of gross pay per 5 series! Electricity, heating diesel, LPG etc are all expensive in NZ and it costs more to heat an equivalent house in NZ than in the UK.
Campbell Live on Tues 05.04.11 clearly demonstrated that a healthy diet in NZ, with farm fresh produce, is not affordable for most of the population.

*Affordable housing – No*
Especially considering what you get for the money, the cost of building materials to update, the low salaries and the high costs of living, then housing is unaffordable. This has been well publicized especially recently with NZ housing shown to be severely unaffordable by official stats and the Government.

*Clean and green - No*
As we know this is an IMAGE used for marketing. It is comparatively clean and green because of the low population but the pollution and carbon footprint on a per population basis is high. The WHO report in 2008 clearly demonstrated that if everybody on the planet used resources at the same rate as the average New Zealander then we would need 3.5 planets to sustain the population of the planet already. Admittedly NZ is not necessarily the worlds worst, but it is not the 'world leader' in green living it professes to be and has a much missed opportunity in this regard. Don't forget the inadequate or no existent waste water treatment systems and multitude of septic tanks. Beaches in 'clean green NZ' undergo constant monitoring for coliforms and are often closed.

*Also not forgetting that well established official figures clearly show that NZ has -*
The highest levels of depression in the OECD
The highest levels of child poverty,
The highest levels of child abuse,
The highest levels of domestic violence,
The highest overall crime figures,
The highest levels of fraud,
The highest levels of respiratory illness.

This represents just some of the official data and is a clear indicator of a low socio-economic Country which is less than first world. True, there are some people with a lot of money in NZ and they can turn a blind eye to these facts and enjoy the positives, but an 'I'm alright Jack' attitude and no social conscience cannot be considered good or acceptable.
Generally speaking NZ is much more 'every man for himself' than many places, although this attitude is somewhat endemic in human civilization. 
I could also sit here and think how much better I am doing than the vast majority of New Zealand but my principals would never allow this.

:ranger:


----------



## dawnclaremaddox

topcat83 said:


> Hi Pic Lol! I just love reading your postings.....300 ski lifts - I'd be amazed if there were 300 in the whole of NZ!!! In comparison to many countries 9including France) we have a very small ski industry - although it is growing.
> 
> Actually many of us (me included) come from the UK. Although I can't say the UK doesn't have its problems i don't think it fits into the categories you've just mentioned.....
> 
> NZ was the first country to give women the vote, and to have a woman PM. I personally think it is one of the most democratic countries I have ever visited. (after saying that, National is in now - with a few too many Thatcher-like policies for my liking )
> 
> Agreed - it isn't for everyone)
> 
> ....except we were never in a depression when compared with the rest of the world. It really hasn't been that bad over the last couple of years. I know - I've been living and working here.
> 
> Sorry - are we talking about the same country here? I don't recognise your description.
> 
> I think you've just become offensive and placed yourself firmly in the court of someone with a chip on their shoulder who should have their visa permanentlt rescinded.... This is my chosen country you are talking about and (warts and all) I love living here.
> 
> I was surprised about the number of 'hunter-gatherers' there are in NZ - but that is because they have looked after their resources, and therefore there are things to hunt and gather. For example, there are very strict quotas and rules about the number and size of fish that you can take. Paua (abalone) cannot be harvested using scuba gear. There are extremely strict rules THAT ARE ENFORCED. You can have your car and boat confiscated if you are caught breaking the rules. There are large marine reserves and national parks. Many islands off the coast are now home to endangered species. Hydroelectric schemes have been curtailed to prevent the raising of some lakes. Does this sound like a country that is not looking after its wildlife and natural resources?
> 
> 
> Please don't come back, even as a tourist - we don't want someone who slags us off. Find somewhere else to slag off - I'm sure you will.
> 
> We need people who will be a positive influence on this country, and I don't think you make the grade.



Topcat, I was wondering, at what age Pic and American guy will retire? My husband and I are working class and proud to be, we have no mortgage and I know we are very lucky. Retirement age here keeps going up and I wonder if there will be a pension for us when we retire. 

Our diesel has gone over the £1.40 and petrol you will be lucky to get for £1.35 per litre. (Where does our fuel come from?) 

I feel that we are getting ripped off by the supermarkets, being force fed by them saying that is what we want while our little shops are being shut down. ( I wonder which countries own them?)

Both Pic and American Guy should go and live in the East End of London, it was bad enough when I was growing up, now you wouldn't believe that you were in England.
I am not racist by any means, the world is our oyster and we can go anywhere we want and we have visited lots of countries, but NZ is where the heart is for us. We felt we belonged, which is a feeling that I have never had here in the UK. 

The only feeling I have here in the UK, even in the rural areas, is that 'Big Brother' is always watching you, making sure that you are keeping up with the 'Jone's', that your house and garden isn't making the village looking messy. or they don't like your hobby or you because you are not from a priveleged background and think that you are crooked and earnt your money that way.

There are too many people with too many hangups or time on there hands, that they feel they have the right to interfere with your life, but you have no right to do the same. 

I just want to be treated the same way that I would treat others, there are only 2 classes of people in this world, givers and takers and I can honestly say that I am a giver.

I apologise if I have offended anyone by my comment.


----------



## dawnclaremaddox

Bevdeforges said:


> Having lived for seven, long miserable years in France before I got my head around the differences and how I was wasting time making myself miserable, I have to disagree with you here.
> 
> Trust me, if you're miserable in France, you give immense offense by pointing out that the French don't seem to like to follow their own laws either. (Think, speed limits, helmet laws for motorbikes, paying taxes, etc. etc.) Repeat the same political jokes in France that a Frenchman tells, and you'll get a real earful about national pride if you're a foreigner. (Or even if you have French nationality but weren't born here.)
> 
> The Americans take offense just as easily (if not more so). I've managed to offend my fellow countrymen just by mentioning things I've noted about American society in the time I've lived elsewhere.
> 
> If you're planning on staying where you are, you ultimately develop a sense of humor about the things that drive you nuts. Write it off to the "charm" of the locals or whatever you have to do to live with it.
> 
> And hop on over to the France section here to see what drives the immigrants wild about the inefficient and stupid ways of France, its people and its government. Then tell me that "middle class people" in Europe and America don't take offense when you take the mickey on their country.
> Cheers,
> Bev


Hi Bev, just 1 question from me here in the UK. Could you please define 'Middle Class' for me. This has been recent discussion in this country.
Thanks


----------



## dawnclaremaddox

James & Lisa said:


> Hi Pic,
> 
> 2.) Flexibility, you are going into a new environment that has existed without you believe it or not, to fit in YOU have to be flexible not the place and certainly not the people
> 
> 3.) HUMILITY, you are going to a country not of your own, you are different, you have to make the effort and when the house isn't according to European specs, guess what it aint Europe so why would it be?! Remember that every country or person has not been blessed with the luxury that you have clearly had that has placed you so high on the pedestal.
> 
> If Kiwis are more fond of there own and i have to work hard to get into that inner circle and if they don't accept me immediately, you know what? I respect that. Just look at Europe and the utter nonsense they tolerate, the shear mess they have got themselves into with this open arm, sorry i made a mistake 600 years ago nonsense, so have a passport. If New Zealand is tough on those who don't work, tough on those who are not willing to change, tough on those that come with a "i'm better than you cause i'm from a 1st world country" attitude, then i all i know is that i am gonna love the place. 20 August we are landing I CANT WAIT!!!



Dear James and Lisa
Exactly how I think, when in Rome do as the Romans do. Something that has been lost here in the UK for as long as I can remember, here it is 'do as I say, not as I do'.


----------



## 123laura

*Just a thought*

I really appreciate that this is a valid debate and thought needs to be given to both positive and negative factors when making a life changing decision.

I wonder if people should spend some time giving themselves an honest 'once-over' as I would consider this to be the make or break factor. A positive and self sufficient person can thrive under very difficult circumstances, and if we compare life in New Zealand today with life in Libya or the Ivory Coast or even countries like Greece, Ireland and Portugal, maybe it's not so bad after all.

In my opinion the happiness that you have every day is the sum total of the happiness you've put your hand out and taken.


----------



## sdh080

scubadoo said:


> *Better work/life balance - No*
> People work more hours per week in NZ than the UK, usually 40 hours however NZ productivity is low as statistics and the NZ economy clearly show over decades.
> *In NZ people get 20 days annual leave, in the UK we get at least 38 days annual leave plus more statutory days than in NZ.*
> You often spend as much or often more time stuck in traffic getting to and from work in NZ as in the UK, in most centres (Not so much in Dunedin). NZ Immigration advertises that traffic and travel problems are things of the past when you move here.


Where in the UK do you get "at least 38 days" annual leave?


----------



## topcat83

dawnclaremaddox said:


> Topcat, I was wondering, at what age Pic and American guy will retire? My husband and I are working class and proud to be, we have no mortgage and I know we are very lucky. Retirement age here keeps going up and I wonder if there will be a pension for us when we retire.
> 
> Our diesel has gone over the £1.40 and petrol you will be lucky to get for £1.35 per litre. (Where does our fuel come from?)
> 
> I feel that we are getting ripped off by the supermarkets, being force fed by them saying that is what we want while our little shops are being shut down. ( I wonder which countries own them?)
> 
> Both Pic and American Guy should go and live in the East End of London, it was bad enough when I was growing up, now you wouldn't believe that you were in England.
> I am not racist by any means, the world is our oyster and we can go anywhere we want and we have visited lots of countries, but NZ is where the heart is for us. We felt we belonged, which is a feeling that I have never had here in the UK.
> 
> The only feeling I have here in the UK, even in the rural areas, is that 'Big Brother' is always watching you, making sure that you are keeping up with the 'Jone's', that your house and garden isn't making the village looking messy. or they don't like your hobby or you because you are not from a priveleged background and think that you are crooked and earnt your money that way.
> 
> There are too many people with too many hangups or time on there hands, that they feel they have the right to interfere with your life, but you have no right to do the same.
> 
> I just want to be treated the same way that I would treat others, there are only 2 classes of people in this world, givers and takers and I can honestly say that I am a giver.
> 
> I apologise if I have offended anyone by my comment.


Hey, you're on the same page as me. Like you, I don't consider myself 'racist' - but maybe a little bit 'culturalist'. I was born and brought up in Wembley, NW London - and my 'home' town just doesn't exist any more - i do not recognise it when I return. I do not have a birth place to return to. One of my biggest concerns for the UK is that we have a history of fighting for equality, and in particular have fought long and hard for equality for women. The current culture in my home town goes directly against that equality, both for women and for other cultures - and it's all in the name of religion. 

One of the things I like about NZ is I feel at home with the culture. We have many cultures here in Auckland, but (at the moment) each is tolerant of other cultures. Of course there will always be radicals (in my mind Hone Harawira is the biggest racist of the lot - see his website to see what I mean - The Official Website Of MP Hone Harawira - Te Tai Tokerau). But generally Maori, Pacific Islanders, Pakeha (European White) and Asian (both new and second, third and more generations) get along very well. Most NZers can trace their tree back to a Maori 'Whanau' somewhere.

I am very proud to be friends with a family who - to my mind - sum up the NZ culture. My friend is half Maori and half Irish. Her partner is a Vietnamese 'boat person' refugee. They have just had their first daughter. She is in my mind a 'typical' Kiwi.


----------



## kiwigser

scubadoo said:


> Hi kiwigser - you posted a comment that I was ranting and needed to state some facts so I have. Enjoy!
> 
> Hi - yes there are good and bad points to all places but not all places heavily advertise themselves as 'the best country in the world' or godzone and bring in migrants to fill skill shortages that simply do not exist and for better pay and conditions that do not exist.
> 
> I had a meeting with a lady from the Dept of Labour last week and even she was truly horrified at the treatment and salaries we had been subjected to in Dunedin as qualified and skilled migrants.
> 
> Some of my comments are Dunedin specific, since I live here. People tell me that Dunedin is a special case and I can see some validity in this, but I can also see that many of the issues are nationwide. MAny things in Dunedin are VERY expensive including food, gas, new builds etc. I assesed the cost of building here and proved time and time again that it costs $100k more to build the house in Dunedin than anywhere else in NZ!!
> 
> Admittedly there have been good points but these have been heavily outweighed by the bad. In time, once we are away, we may look a little more fondly on our time here but right now it is all too raw.
> 
> As for facts here are some -
> 
> *Better work/life balance - No*
> People work more hours per week in NZ than the UK, usually 40 hours however NZ productivity is low as statistics and the NZ economy clearly show over decades.
> In NZ people get 20 days annual leave, in the UK we get at least 38 days annual leave plus more statutory days than in NZ.
> You often spend as much or often more time stuck in traffic getting to and from work in NZ as in the UK, in most centres (Not so much in Dunedin). NZ Immigration advertises that traffic and travel problems are things of the past when you move here.
> 
> *Lower cost of living - No*
> Official stats clearly show that NZ has the second highest cost of living in the OECD. Only Australia is more expensive. This is well publicized in the media and on the web. It is easy to do a comparison by checking the UK prices online, it needs to be assessed as a percentage of take home pay.
> On paper you pay less tax in NZ, but you need to figure in the many items which are tax free or low tax in the UK. Doing this shows that you pay about 10% more tax in NZ depending on what you buy.
> I have found the BMW index (Similar to the MacDonald’s index) to be the most accurate cost of living comparison. For me it calculates how many new 5 series BMW's I can buy per year of gross pay in the UK and in NZ it is years of gross pay per 5 series! Electricity, heating diesel, LPG etc are all expensive in NZ and it costs more to heat an equivalent house in NZ than in the UK.
> Campbell Live on Tues 05.04.11 clearly demonstrated that a healthy diet in NZ, with farm fresh produce, is not affordable for most of the population.
> 
> *Affordable housing – No*
> Especially considering what you get for the money, the cost of building materials to update, the low salaries and the high costs of living, then housing is unaffordable. This has been well publicized especially recently with NZ housing shown to be severely unaffordable by official stats and the Government.
> 
> *Clean and green - No*
> As we know this is an IMAGE used for marketing. It is comparatively clean and green because of the low population but the pollution and carbon footprint on a per population basis is high. The WHO report in 2008 clearly demonstrated that if everybody on the planet used resources at the same rate as the average New Zealander then we would need 3.5 planets to sustain the population of the planet already. Admittedly NZ is not necessarily the worlds worst, but it is not the 'world leader' in green living it professes to be and has a much missed opportunity in this regard. Don't forget the inadequate or no existent waste water treatment systems and multitude of septic tanks. Beaches in 'clean green NZ' undergo constant monitoring for coliforms and are often closed.
> 
> *Also not forgetting that well established official figures clearly show that NZ has -*
> The highest levels of depression in the OECD
> The highest levels of child poverty,
> The highest levels of child abuse,
> The highest levels of domestic violence,
> The highest overall crime figures,
> The highest levels of fraud,
> The highest levels of respiratory illness.
> 
> This represents just some of the official data and is a clear indicator of a low socio-economic Country which is less than first world. True, there are some people with a lot of money in NZ and they can turn a blind eye to these facts and enjoy the positives, but an 'I'm alright Jack' attitude and no social conscience cannot be considered good or acceptable.
> Generally speaking NZ is much more 'every man for himself' than many places, although this attitude is somewhat endemic in human civilization.
> I could also sit here and think how much better I am doing than the vast majority of New Zealand but my principals would never allow this.
> 
> :ranger:


Right I shall try to reply, but I have drunk most of a bottle of NZ merlot I may ramble, I notice one thing you did not complain about was our wine.

Statistics and lies. I am not sure were you got your stats. from, but the one I was reading the other day put us at the bottom for murders per head of population, before the reduction this year to 45 from 60 odd and lower then Aus and the UK for most of the others.

Comparing Dunedin with Auckland is like chalk and cheese, I would not move to Dunedin because the weather is like Scotland, but when I visited as a tourist I was impressed especially by the Albatross along the peninsular, the architecture, we also have several friends teenagers at Otago Uni. and they love it.

Coming back to the stats. when I visited the mother in law in Eastcote UK, she used to go on about how terrible the UK was, but she had no problems with crime or anything, but she read the Daily Mail (Daily fascist) and her view of the UK was from the paper. 

Auckland was voted the 4th best city to live in on the Mercer scale
City Mayors: Best cities in the world (Mercer)
so that our crime stats. must have been taken into consideration.

I suppose I am only replying to balance up the forum, I have better things to do with my life than try and change your views, I am definitely on a looser there.

Finally I have no problem with the UK, it was very good to me, but I have moved on, so I hope it is what you expect, the only guarantee is that life moves on, you may become a yo yo pom.


----------



## dawnclaremaddox

topcat83 said:


> Hey, you're on the same page as me. Like you, I don't consider myself 'racist' - but maybe a little bit 'culturalist'. I was born and brought up in Wembley, NW London - and my 'home' town just doesn't exist any more - i do not recognise it when I return. I do not have a birth place to return to. One of my biggest concerns for the UK is that we have a history of fighting for equality, and in particular have fought long and hard for equality for women. The current culture in my home town goes directly against that equality, both for women and for other cultures - and it's all in the name of religion.
> 
> One of the things I like about NZ is I feel at home with the culture. We have many cultures here in Auckland, but (at the moment) each is tolerant of other cultures. Of course there will always be radicals (in my mind Hone Harawira is the biggest racist of the lot - see his website to see what I mean - The Official Website Of MP Hone Harawira - Te Tai Tokerau). But generally Maori, Pacific Islanders, Pakeha (European White) and Asian (both new and second, third and more generations) get along very well. Most NZers can trace their tree back to a Maori 'Whanau' somewhere.
> 
> I am very proud to be friends with a family who - to my mind - sum up the NZ culture. My friend is half Maori and half Irish. Her partner is a Vietnamese 'boat person' refugee. They have just had their first daughter. She is in my mind a 'typical' Kiwi.


Thanks for your reply Topcat, in this modern age, everyone is equal, it doesn't matter what colour or creed we are. What matters is being charitable, helpful and willing. I have good health, a wonderful family unit, and so looking forward to a new chapter. I would like to keep in contact if that's ok, we are going to be based in the Taranki District (not quite sure which area yet) as work for my hubby is in Strandon.


----------



## anski

dawnclaremaddox said:


> Topcat, I was wondering, at what age Pic and American guy will retire? My husband and I are working class and proud to be, we have no mortgage and I know we are very lucky. Retirement age here keeps going up and I wonder if there will be a pension for us when we retire.
> 
> Our diesel has gone over the £1.40 and petrol you will be lucky to get for £1.35 per litre. (Where does our fuel come from?)
> 
> I feel that we are getting ripped off by the supermarkets, being force fed by them saying that is what we want while our little shops are being shut down. ( I wonder which countries own them?)
> 
> Both Pic and American Guy should go and live in the East End of London, it was bad enough when I was growing up, now you wouldn't believe that you were in England.
> I am not racist by any means, the world is our oyster and we can go anywhere we want and we have visited lots of countries, but NZ is where the heart is for us. We felt we belonged, which is a feeling that I have never had here in the UK.
> 
> The only feeling I have here in the UK, even in the rural areas, is that 'Big Brother' is always watching you, making sure that you are keeping up with the 'Jone's', that your house and garden isn't making the village looking messy. or they don't like your hobby or you because you are not from a priveleged background and think that you are crooked and earnt your money that way.
> 
> There are too many people with too many hangups or time on there hands, that they feel they have the right to interfere with your life, but you have no right to do the same.
> 
> I just want to be treated the same way that I would treat others, there are only 2 classes of people in this world, givers and takers and I can honestly say that I am a giver.
> 
> I apologise if I have offended anyone by my comment.


DawnClaireMaddox

Here is the website to provide you with all information on NZ pension or super as it is called here.

65 years or older - Work and Income

My British friend who came to NZ past retirement age on the strength of her partner (but relationship) is now over has lived here for over 12 years and several years ago exchanged her UK pension for NZ super because it paid more which I think is very generous of NZ government considering she has never worked in NZ.


----------



## Darla.R

scubadoo said:


> Dear Pic - I had to join this forum just to send you a reply.
> 
> I just wanted to say that you are absolutely correct in everything you say. It is not just you, there are a great majority of migrants from first world Countries saying this these days. Those from India and alike think it is heaven of course!
> 
> Statements made by migrants (Some English) that costs are lower etc are just not true, they are fooling themselves. It is easy to complete an accurate cost analysis based on facts and this proves that NZ is unaffordable and a low socio-economic country. This is constantly backed up by news items showing this to be the case, such as Campbell Live on Tuesday 05.04.11. On this show a migrant from Wales said that he moved to NZ for a better life and found it..........but that was 25 years ago and it is no longer a better life in NZ.
> 
> Some migrants do find it better here and some of that depends on your personal circumstances and field of employment as well as what you are used to and expect. Often there is a role reversal with those who are poor in the UK doing well and those who are professionals with an education being pushed down. There is often a 'certain type' of person who does well in NZ and England is all the better for them leaving the UK!!
> I came from the University of Oxford where I worked with Sir Walter Bodmer. My family and I have had a terrible time and I am unemployable here and get paid less than any tradesman for what jobs there are. We are leaving and fully intend to take out an extensive campaign to alert prospective migrants to the 'real NZ'. It will still suit some but at least they will all have more info than we did.
> 
> When you post negative comments about NZ you can expect a torrent of bullying and abuse. It is the kiwi way! But this does not change the facts. As you say NZ is all image and no substance, kiwis protect that image at all costs. Unfortunately they are too short sighted to see that the attitude to migration in NZ will have profoundly damaging effects on the NZ image and economy in the not so distant future. The number of people making these comments is growing exponentially and they are getting out into the world and telling people. The NZ bubble will burst!
> _[deleted advertising]_
> It is common here for those who complain and cause a stir to be silenced by any means necessary; this tells you everything about the people, the country and the morals. It is an immature, petty, bigoted, third world, nepocracy.
> 
> Hope you get out intact. Regards.


Dear Scubbadoo how refreshing it is to read something written by someone with a brain between his ears and who is able to articulate so well what is wrong with New Zealand. Yes there are dangers associated with speaking out, as you already seem to have encountered from the likes of Kiwigser. I think that proves your point well.

NZ was a wonderful place to emigrate to maybe 15-20 years ago, it enjoyed one of the highest standards of living in the world but unfortuantely the world moved on and left NZ lagging way behind.

I think one of the major reasons for this was the booms in other developed countries - the USA, Britain and Australia took away the country's brightest and best and for many reasons NZ isn't able to catch up.

So many people are still being paid the sort of salaries that were being offered 10 years ago and it doesn't help when new migrants come over and are content to accept below-market rates because they're so eager to get into the country. It also skews the promotion/progression prospects for people already living and working hard in NZ. 

How demoralising is it when someone comes in from Britain and is happy to take the job above you for $15,000 less than you're earning?

This has the effect of depressing the wages for everyone, so the best and most capable leave for abroad where and when they can. Graduates leave because they have enormous student loans to pay off and because they can see a brighter future for themselves abroad.

This happens in your field of work and many others. Medicine is a classic example of this so I will use *doctors to illustrate my point.

Junior doctors go over to Australia for the weekend to do locum work and pick up thousands of dollars, leaving their hospitals in NZ short staffed.

Once they've sampled the good money and the Australian lifetsyle they decide to stay on and the health service in NZ is left to recruit replacements as best it can. 

Whilst it may be easy to attract doctors into well resourced locations such as Auckland or Wellington other places aren't so desirable and this has led to a severe shortage of doctors and certain types of specialists in most other parts of the country. So bad in some towns that some patients cannot get the level of care they need, even if they went private.

This understaffing is one of the reasons why the NZ immigration medical is so stringent - the country cannot cope with any additional pressures on its health system.

Of course when the best and brightest leave the make-up of what is left changes: Large numbers of people surviving on benefits, single parent families, a population that is growing increasingly older and a generation of youngsters growing up with little chance of finding decent work and turning to crime to make do. 

Whilst there are affluent pockets - mostly where skilled migrants congregate - the majority of people in NZ haven't got two brass farthings to rub together.

Another issue affecting New Zealand right now is the number of people emigrating there towards the end of their working careers, looking for a good place to retire to. Retirees of course put further pressure on the welfare and health systems, they don't contribute as much tax as working people and require more support as they age. The buy their houses for cash, adding to house price inflation and price first timers out of the market. Most young people in NZ will never be able to own their own home and will need to move abroad if they are to realise that aspiration.

The proportion of households without children, compared to those with, is now greater in New Zealand than at anytime time since the second world war.

That's a scary thought when you're talking about a country that only has just over 4 million residents and makes most of its money from tourism and agriculture. How can it possibly generate the wealth to pay good wages and pursuade people not ot leave. the cycle cannot be broken and will continue to wind itself down and down to......what? financial collapse?

South Canterbury Finance & AMI insurance may just the tip of the iceberg. How many other failing companies can the tax payer afford to keep afloat and still pay for the reconstruction of a city like Christhcurch? I fear for what will happen if there's a big quake in Wellington or Hawke's Bay.

*Reference:
NZ doctors going to Aussie for good | Stuff.co.nz

Cancer Specialists Shortages Highlight Wider Crisis | Scoop News


----------



## Darla.R

anski said:


> DawnClaireMaddox
> 
> Here is the website to provide you with all information on NZ pension or super as it is called here.
> 
> 65 years or older - Work and Income
> 
> My British friend who came to NZ past retirement age on the strength of her partner (but relationship) is now over has lived here for over 12 years and several years ago exchanged her UK pension for NZ super because it paid more which I think is very generous of NZ government considering she has never worked in NZ.


Yes the benefits system is very accessible in NZ but is it enough for her to live on. What does she cut back on to make ends meet? 

I sincerely hope she doesn't fall foul of the government's austerity measures and isn't reduced to eating pet food or cockroaches

MPs told of starving boy eating cockroaches | Stuff.co.nz



> Reports of a starving boy eating cockroaches, pensioners eating cat food and a soaring increase in demand for food parcels were raised in Parliament today as Labour accused the Government of turning its back on New Zealand's most vulnerable citizens.
> 
> Labour's deputy leader, Annette King, asked Prime Minister John Key what he intended doing to help people who couldn't afford to buy food because of the rapid rise in the cost of living.


----------



## sdh080

Darla.R said:


> Graduates leave because they have enormous student loans to pay off and because they can see a brighter future for themselves abroad.
> 
> the majority of people in NZ haven't got two brass farthings to rub together.
> 
> Most young people in NZ will never be able to own their own home and will need to move abroad if they are to realise that aspiration.
> 
> South Canterbury Finance & AMI insurance may just the tip of the iceberg. How many other failing companies can the tax payer afford to keep afloat and still pay for the reconstruction of a city like Christhcurch? I fear for what will happen if there's a big quake in Wellington or Hawke's Bay.


Graduates don't just leave due to student loans or because of brighter futures abroad, they often leave because they've spent the first 25 years of their life in New Zealand and want to go out and experience the world before they settle down, get married and have kids.

Do you have any evidence to back up the statement that "majority of people in NZ haven't got two brass farthings to rub together" and how does this compare to other countries in the world?

That's another huge generalisation, I'm probably coming to the end of the bracket you're talking about but the vast majority of my Kiwi friends in the 21-30 group own their home and they come from a variety of educational and working backgrounds and live in Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch, Dunedin, Central Otago and so on.

Companies failing is happening all over the world, the British government own the majority share in a number of UK banks and financial companies. 

There's a lot of grandstanding in your post without an awful lot to back your statements up.


----------



## sdh080

Darla.R said:


> Yes the benefits system is very accessible in NZ but is it enough for her to live on. What does she cut back on to make ends meet?
> 
> I sincerely hope she doesn't fall foul of the government's austerity measures and isn't reduced to eating pet food or cockroaches


So we know for a fact that the young boy was eating cockroaches due to "government austerity measures" or was it down to his parents neglecting to takes care of him?


----------



## kiwigser

Darla.R said:


> Dear Scubbadoo how refreshing it is to read something written by someone with a brain between his ears and who is able to articulate so well what is wrong with New Zealand. Yes there are dangers associated with speaking out, as you already seem to have encountered from the likes of Kiwigser. I think that proves your point well.
> 
> NZ was a wonderful place to emigrate to maybe 15-20 years ago, it enjoyed one of the highest standards of living in the world but unfortuantely the world moved on and left NZ lagging way behind.
> 
> I think one of the major reasons for this was the booms in other developed countries - the USA, Britain and Australia took away the country's brightest and best and for many reasons NZ isn't able to catch up.
> 
> So many people are still being paid the sort of salaries that were being offered 10 years ago and it doesn't help when new migrants come over and are content to accept below-market rates because they're so eager to get into the country. It also skews the promotion/progression prospects for people already living and working hard in NZ.
> 
> How demoralising is it when someone comes in from Britain and is happy to take the job above you for $15,000 less than you're earning?
> 
> This has the effect of depressing the wages for everyone, so the best and most capable leave for abroad where and when they can. Graduates leave because they have enormous student loans to pay off and because they can see a brighter future for themselves abroad.
> 
> This happens in your field of work and many others. Medicine is a classic example of this so I will use *doctors to illustrate my point.
> 
> Junior doctors go over to Australia for the weekend to do locum work and pick up thousands of dollars, leaving their hospitals in NZ short staffed.
> 
> Once they've sampled the good money and the Australian lifetsyle they decide to stay on and the health service in NZ is left to recruit replacements as best it can.
> 
> Whilst it may be easy to attract doctors into well resourced locations such as Auckland or Wellington other places aren't so desirable and this has led to a severe shortage of doctors and certain types of specialists in most other parts of the country. So bad in some towns that some patients cannot get the level of care they need, even if they went private.
> 
> This understaffing is one of the reasons why the NZ immigration medical is so stringent - the country cannot cope with any additional pressures on its health system.
> 
> Of course when the best and brightest leave the make-up of what is left changes: Large numbers of people surviving on benefits, single parent families, a population that is growing increasingly older and a generation of youngsters growing up with little chance of finding decent work and turning to crime to make do.
> 
> Whilst there are affluent pockets - mostly where skilled migrants congregate - the majority of people in NZ haven't got two brass farthings to rub together.
> 
> Another issue affecting New Zealand right now is the number of people emigrating there towards the end of their working careers, looking for a good place to retire to. Retirees of course put further pressure on the welfare and health systems, they don't contribute as much tax as working people and require more support as they age. The buy their houses for cash, adding to house price inflation and price first timers out of the market. Most young people in NZ will never be able to own their own home and will need to move abroad if they are to realise that aspiration.
> 
> The proportion of households without children, compared to those with, is now greater in New Zealand than at anytime time since the second world war.
> 
> That's a scary thought when you're talking about a country that only has just over 4 million residents and makes most of its money from tourism and agriculture. How can it possibly generate the wealth to pay good wages and pursuade people not ot leave. the cycle cannot be broken and will continue to wind itself down and down to......what? financial collapse?
> 
> South Canterbury Finance & AMI insurance may just the tip of the iceberg. How many other failing companies can the tax payer afford to keep afloat and still pay for the reconstruction of a city like Christhcurch? I fear for what will happen if there's a big quake in Wellington or Hawke's Bay.
> 
> *Reference:
> NZ doctors going to Aussie for good | Stuff.co.nz
> 
> Cancer Specialists Shortages Highlight Wider Crisis | Scoop News


So I do not agree with most of the above arguments, am I being defensive, sure I am, for if a fraction of Scubadoo's rant was correct, I would be either stupid or walk round with my head in the clouds. 

Why would I want to live here, why would 3 of our family friends extend their working visas for residency, and no not to go to Aus. either. Why is it none of our work mates, our friends, our neighbours, people we meet on our travels (we travel a lot around NZ) have anything like the views expressed here. Am I getting p!$$ed of, sure I am, I contribute to this forum to answer questions not to sell NZ. 
The complainants here have failed in their move from the UK and France so it must be the fault of NZ not their own.
And finally the last thing I want is Irish Aussie telling me what is wrong with my adopted country, I think you have a few problems of your own, in Australia and Ireland, so butt out. 
Have I lost my temper, yes but scubadoo has lost the plot.

ps could you send me some Aussie money, my family and friends have not two brass farthings to rub together.


----------



## Darla.R

kiwigser said:


> So I do not agree with most of the above arguments, am I being defensive, sure I am, for if a fraction of Scubadoo's rant was correct, I would be either stupid or walk round with my head in the clouds.
> 
> Why would I want to live here, why would 3 of our family friends extend their working visas for residency, and no not to go to Aus. either. Why is it none of our work mates, our friends, our neighbours, people we meet on our travels (we travel a lot around NZ) have anything like the views expressed here. Am I getting pissed of, sure I am, I contribute to this forum to answer questions not to sell NZ.
> The complainants here have failed in their move from the UK and France so it must be the fault of NZ not their own.
> And finally the last thing I want is Irish Aussie telling me what is wrong with my adopted country, I think you have a few problems of your own, in Australia and Ireland, so butt out.
> Have I lost my temper, yes but scubadoo has lost the plot.
> 
> ps could you send me some Aussie money, my family and friends have not two brass farthings to rub together.


I don't know why you're asking me questions to which only you could possibly know the answer. 

I must therefore assume that the reason why you're staying is because you're either retired, or are approaching retirement and have brought enough money from Britain with you to be able to do the things you want at this time of your life.

It must be hard for you to acknowledge that you're part of the problem and one of the reasons why New Zealand has the issues it does.

Both you and sdh080 are very quick to try to discredit the negative remarks, however you both did something useful by proving that Scubadoo was correct in his "torrent of bullying and abuse" comment. If he was correct about that don't you accept that he's correct about other things too?

I noted that neither of you touched on the issue of outward migration from New Zealand instead choosing to focus on cockroaches and anything else you could take an easy shot at. 

That in itself is interesting, why are you aiming for the low handing fruit? because its easier than acknowledging the branch is about to fall on your head? 

The big issue that you've failed to see is that highly skilled people like scubadoo were brought over to improve the country that YOU live in. He and people like him are there to improve YOUR quality of life and they are leaving. 

He was treated so shabbily that not only is he trying to leave but he's felt compelled to write about it on a public forum so that other people like him don't make the same mistakes. That must take a lot of guts and I commend him for it

You should be mortified that your new country is losing people like him, you should be trying to find out what your country needs to do to keep him because you need him.

Please hope that neither of you, or your families ever need specialist spinal care in New Zealand.


----------



## Darla.R

sdh080 said:


> Graduates don't just leave due to student loans or because of brighter futures abroad, they often leave because they've spent the first 25 years of their life in New Zealand and want to go out and experience the world before they settle down, get married and have kids.
> 
> There's a lot of grandstanding in your post without an awful lot to back your statements up.


Clam down and please make the effort to at read properly the two links I provided for you before making "grandstanding comments"



> "They were trying to get locums who had returned from Australia, but what's happening is they're going over, thinking `this is really good', and they just stay there ... the number of doctors over there means they're able to work an eight-hour day and can plan to take leave when they want – which may not happen here.
> 
> "The hospitals here are doing the best they can to retain the locums, but with very limited resources. I'm sure they would pay if they could, but they just don't seem to have the budgets."
> 
> New Zealand faced competition from some Australian hospitals whose budgets seemed bottomless, Mr Hazledine said.
> 
> To compound matters, senior doctors were also feeling the pull from Australia: "They can can earn huge amounts of money – up to $15,000 per week for a reasonably long term, which makes it pretty attractive."
> 
> If anything could be salvaged out of the situation it was by using Australia as a blueprint, Mr Hazledine said.
> 
> "They're very proactive. We've got generation Y doctors coming out of med school with $100,000 student loans who want to pay them off. As a society there's a certain feeling of ownership towards doctors, but young individuals with a huge personal debt don't really feel that in return, so we've got to make things attractive here for them."


Wouldn't you like to be able to keep your doctors in New Zealand? 

Doesn't New Zealand need people like Scubadoo ?


----------



## topcat83

Gosh - I go to work, and come back to toddlers throwing toys out of prams!

But hopefully the contributors on both sides of the fence will see that their posts have _not_ been deleted (even though for some reason some of them think they will be!) As I've said before, don't break the rules, and your posts will stay. And at least this Forum's rules _allow_ them to stay. 

There is another one out there that blatantly states in its rules that it's _only_ for people who want to slag off New Zealand.

Now I wonder which Forum is the most balanced?


----------



## dawnclaremaddox

*NZ vs UK*



Darla.R said:


> NZ was a wonderful place to emigrate to maybe 15-20 years ago, it enjoyed one of the highest standards of living in the world but unfortuantely the world moved on and left NZ lagging way behind.
> 
> I think one of the major reasons for this was the booms in other developed countries - the USA, Britain and Australia took away the country's brightest and best and for many reasons NZ isn't able to catch up.
> 
> Look at us now! We maybe near the top but we have further to fall. Just now on the radio, yet another country in the EU are after being bailed with money. We are at stretching point with cuts every way you turn, but hey, that's what they call progress!!
> 
> So many people are still being paid the sort of salaries that were being offered 10 years ago and it doesn't help when new migrants come over and are content to accept below-market rates because they're so eager to get into the country. It also skews the promotion/progression prospects for people already living and working hard in NZ.
> 
> My hubby earns about £2000.00 more than he did 20 years ago is that good? He works long hours, usually leaving at 7.30am and early for him to get home is 5.30pm and late has been 10.30pm.
> 
> How demoralising is it when someone comes in from Britain and is happy to take the job above you for $15,000 less than you're earning?
> 
> Don't you think that the companies also have a part in this? Surely not all our fault?
> 
> This has the effect of depressing the wages for everyone, so the best and most capable leave for abroad where and when they can. Graduates leave because they have enormous student loans to pay off and because they can see a brighter future for themselves abroad.
> 
> This is affects the world over don't you think?
> 
> This happens in your field of work and many others. Medicine is a classic example of this so I will use *doctors to illustrate my point.
> 
> Junior doctors go over to Australia for the weekend to do locum work and pick up thousands of dollars, leaving their hospitals in NZ short staffed.
> 
> Once they've sampled the good money and the Australian lifetsyle they decide to stay on and the health service in NZ is left to recruit replacements as best it can.
> 
> Whilst it may be easy to attract doctors into well resourced locations such as Auckland or Wellington other places aren't so desirable and this has led to a severe shortage of doctors and certain types of specialists in most other parts of the country. So bad in some towns that some patients cannot get the level of care they need, even if they went private.
> 
> This understaffing is one of the reasons why the NZ immigration medical is so stringent - the country cannot cope with any additional pressures on its health system.
> 
> Of course when the best and brightest leave the make-up of what is left changes: Large numbers of people surviving on benefits, single parent families, a population that is growing increasingly older and a generation of youngsters growing up with little chance of finding decent work and turning to crime to make do.
> 
> Hey come here to the UK and sign on, you will be handed everything on a platter.
> I think every country that has a state benefit or NHS or eqivalent have the same problem, people living longer.
> 
> Whilst there are affluent pockets - mostly where skilled migrants congregate - the majority of people in NZ haven't got two brass farthings to rub together.
> 
> Same here.
> 
> Another issue affecting New Zealand right now is the number of people emigrating there towards the end of their working careers, looking for a good place to retire to. Retirees of course put further pressure on the welfare and health systems, they don't contribute as much tax as working people and require more support as they age. The buy their houses for cash, adding to house price inflation and price first timers out of the market. Most young people in NZ will never be able to own their own home and will need to move abroad if they are to realise that aspiration.
> 
> Same here.
> 
> The proportion of households without children, compared to those with, is now greater in New Zealand than at anytime time since the second world war.
> 
> Population after WW11 in the UK was around 47 million, 2009 was 61.8 million, today I am not sure, we have recently filled out a Census. That doesn't include illegal immigrants, not sure if that includes legal either.
> 
> That's a scary thought when you're talking about a country that only has just over 4 million residents and makes most of its money from tourism and agriculture. How can it possibly generate the wealth to pay good wages and pursuade people not ot leave. the cycle cannot be broken and will continue to wind itself down and down to......what? financial collapse?
> 
> We have lost a lot of businesses here due to them moving abroad because running costs have become expensive.
> 
> South Canterbury Finance & AMI insurance may just the tip of the iceberg. How many other failing companies can the tax payer afford to keep afloat and still pay for the reconstruction of a city like Christhcurch? I fear for what will happen if there's a big quake in Wellington or Hawke's Bay.
> 
> Why can't we get the banks to fork out for a change, they said earlier in the week on the radio that banks here could pay the country half of what is legally ours, (they mentioned our NHS needed a billion a year and our banks could give us back 5 years worth of that) whether it will happen I don't know.


----------



## dawnclaremaddox

Sorry people messed this one up, was trying to quote between Darla's conversation, will try again


----------



## topcat83

dawnclaremaddox said:


> Sorry people messed this one up, was trying to quote between Darla's conversation, will try again


Lol! It took me ages to work out the punctuation needed! Shout if you need help... (or anything deleted to tidy up)


----------



## sdh080

Darla.R said:


> Both you and sdh080 are very quick to try to discredit the negative remarks, however you both did something useful by proving that Scubadoo was correct in his "torrent of bullying and abuse" comment. If he was correct about that don't you accept that he's correct about other things too?
> 
> I noted that neither of you touched on the issue of outward migration from New Zealand instead choosing to focus on cockroaches and anything else you could take an easy shot at.
> 
> That in itself is interesting, why are you aiming for the low handing fruit? because its easier than acknowledging the branch is about to fall on your head?
> 
> The big issue that you've failed to see is that highly skilled people like scubadoo were brought over to improve the country that YOU live in. He and people like him are there to improve YOUR quality of life and they are leaving.
> 
> You should be mortified that your new country is losing people like him, you should be trying to find out what your country needs to do to keep him because you need him.


I haven't discredited the negative remarks, merely offered an alternative view to them. 

I also touched on outward migration offering opinions based on personal experience and comments from the very outward migrants you talk about.

"torrent of bullying and abuse", that's a strong phrase based on nothing more than me offering an alternative opinion.

You don't know anything about how highly qualified the rest of us are or what we offer to the country and merely talk about how qualified Scubadoo is, now I know Sir Walter Bodmer is a scientist interested in human genetics and from that I assume Scubadoo is a researcher or scientist of some sort, given that he's been in Dunedin I'd assume he's been based at the University of Otago.

I read both your links with interest, the problem with using Australia as a blueprint is that they have an economy many times the size of New Zealand, at the end of the day economics matter.


----------



## sdh080

sdh080 said:


> Where in the UK do you get "at least 38 days" annual leave?


As a follow on to this one, in North America, the normal annual leave allowance is 10 days!!


----------



## Darla.R

dawnclaremaddox said:


> "that's what they call progress!!"
> 
> "My hubby earns about £2000.00 more than he did 20 years ago"
> 
> "This is affects the world over don't you think?"
> 
> "Hey come here to the UK and sign on, you will be handed everything on a platter. I think every country that has a state benefit or NHS or eqivalent have the same problem, people living longer."
> 
> Same here.
> 
> Same here.
> 
> "Why can't we get the banks to fork out for a change, they said earlier in the week on the radio that banks here could pay the country half of what is legally ours, (they mentioned our NHS needed a billion a year and our banks could give us back 5 years worth of that) whether it will happen I don't know. "


Remarkably similar aren't they.

Run it by me again why you're emigrating to New Zealand specifically.


----------



## Darla.R

sdh080 said:


> I haven't discredited the negative remarks, merely offered an alternative view to them.
> 
> I also touched on outward migration offering opinions based on personal experience and comments from the very outward migrants you talk about.
> 
> "torrent of bullying and abuse", that's a strong phrase based on nothing more than me offering an alternative opinion.
> 
> You don't know anything about how highly qualified the rest of us are or what we offer to the country and merely talk about how qualified Scubadoo is, now I know Sir Walter Bodmer is a scientist interested in human genetics and from that I assume Scubadoo is a researcher or scientist of some sort, given that he's been in Dunedin I'd assume he's been based at the University of Otago.
> 
> I read both your links with interest, the problem with using Australia as a blueprint is that they have an economy many times the size of New Zealand, at the end of the day economics matter.


Don't you agree that countries the same size and smaller than New Zealand have better economies than New Zealand?

If I use your rationale it would mean that Great Britain should be a lot better place to livein than New Zealand because it's wealthier.

I come from a similar background to scubadoo and what he said struck a chord with me. Because I was interested in his story I googled "scubadoo spinal" and found out what else he had to say.

If a story is worth telling it's worth listening to.


----------



## Darla.R

topcat83 said:


> Gosh - I go to work, and come back to toddlers throwing toys out of prams!
> 
> But hopefully the contributors on both sides of the fence will see that their posts have _not_ been deleted (even though for some reason some of them think they will be!) As I've said before, don't break the rules, and your posts will stay. And at least this Forum's rules _allow_ them to stay.
> 
> There is another one out there that blatantly states in its rules that it's _only_ for people who want to slag off New Zealand.
> 
> Now I wonder which Forum is the most balanced?



Thank you for clarifying that.

The acceptable use policy states

3.5 You may not post articles, news items or other content, or links to such items, without permission from the copyright holder. 

Does that mean we cannot post any links at all without permission?


----------



## sdh080

Darla.R said:


> *Don't you agree that countries the same size and smaller than New Zealand have better economies than New Zealand?*
> 
> If I use your rationale it would mean that Great Britain should be a lot better place to livein than New Zealand because it's wealthier.
> 
> I come from a similar background to scubadoo and what he said struck a chord with me. Because I was interested in his story I googled "scubadoo spinal" and found out what else he had to say.
> 
> If a story is worth telling it's worth listening to.


Any particular examples? I used to live in one of them in the United Arab Emirates but that's massively skewed due to natural resources.

As far as economy goes, yes it should be but it shows the poor government that the UK has suffered from in the last 10 years under Blair and Brown. You can turn it around and say that relatively speaking NZ is doing well.

Unfortunately researchers and scientists outwith the major centres are poorly paid, the Universities don't have the funding to cover the expenses, going from Oxford to Otago is like going from one of the biggest companies in the world to one of the smallest.


----------



## anski

Sorry I missed out seeing this thread when it was first posted. Amazed at some of the hostile remarks about NZ.

Having travelled extensively myself I have observed some of the same issues raised about NZ whilst visiting or living in other countries.

I have recently returned from a visit to the town of my birth in England, I left there when I was 9 & can honestly say I am grateful my parents migrated because I would not want to live there today. Granted it is a working class town with a mixture of housing & some very nice houses at the top end for the few that can afford them. Still looking around at the number of young obviously unwed mothers, pushing prams & smoking, the foul language, graffiti made me want to get the next bus out. My sister has lived there in the same semi detached house for 77 years & walking around local streets with her she complained that the pavements were a mess & to save money councils are going to turn street lighting off at night. Only hope no one falls over on the uneven footpaths!

As for France I lived in the South West in one of old houses built from the pretty coloured stone in the Dordogne but driving to the north one encounters very different architecture & drab dirty grey decrepit housing.
Paris- rude & indifference from service people hearing my bad French pronunciation because they REFUSED to communicate with me in English!
On a train journey from outer Paris into the city- urban slums & more ugly graffiti. Not the same images that France tourism promotes.

USA- also spent some wonderful time but was shocked at the vagrants & beggars in San Francisco & other places. The trailer parks (where the less affluent live permanently) could hardly be called anything but an eyesore!

So I think if you look at ANY country close up without rose tinted glasses you will always see the unattractive places.

Fail to see how anyone could form anything but an initial like or dislike from a brief recce to any country. You really need to live anywhere for at least 12 months before you can form a reliable opinion.

So many places are so very different to the holiday experiences when faced with the every day issues of living in any particular country.

Some of the statements made about NZ being full of rubbish, well don't know where that person chose to live but it certainly is not the case where I lived (& going to be living again soon) apart from when Auckland City Council had it's clean up day which I think took place once a year. Then you could see unwanted items put out on the footpath often few days before the scheduled week the collection was on. Often most was scooped up by people driving around & I guess posted on Trademe. 
We had a big clean when leaving NZ, hired a large skip & filled it with unwanted stuff & left over renovation material, a few minutes later a guy pulled up & starting taking things so I invited him down to our garage where the overflow was & told him he could help himself-there was'nt a cm of space in his 4x4 when he drove off

I always say if life was perfect in their own country for most of these moaners they would never even contemplate moving to NZ in the first place unless they had a desire to explore.

For any potential migrant to judge a country from the rants of others (that do not like or cannot make a go of life in NZ or anywhere else for that matter) is nothing short of stupid.

As for salaries -accepting a position without first checking out the facts of what others actually earn or the true cost of living is like walking into a noose.

I would imagine also the salary for Otago University would be significantly lower that that of University of Auckland. Property used to be significantly lower in Dunedin than Auckland also.

So much research can be dome on the net these days that ignorance is a poor excuse.

So to sum it up NZ is not perfect but can anyone tell me where is?

I prefer it to Australia- for me Auckland is like a mini version of Sydney which was my home for 32 years. However Sydney has grown in population & urban sprawl, there is almost perpetual rush hour traffic despite the introduction of toll roads. It now is expensive to get from A to B.

Auckland has almost everything Sydney has & is definitely easier to navigate if you choose where to live & work. People are friendlier & willing to assist if you are in trouble & at my stage of life I prefer it.


----------



## dawnclaremaddox

Darla.R said:


> Remarkably similar aren't they.
> 
> Run it by me again why you're emigrating to New Zealand specifically.
> 
> Sure Darla,


Topcat, I was wondering, at what age Pic and American guy will retire? My husband and I are working class and proud to be, we have no mortgage and I know we are very lucky. Retirement age here keeps going up and I wonder if there will be a pension for us when we retire. 

Our diesel has gone over the £1.40 and petrol you will be lucky to get for £1.35 per litre. (Where does our fuel come from?) 

I feel that we are getting ripped off by the supermarkets, being force fed by them saying that is what we want while our little shops are being shut down. ( I wonder which countries own them?)

Both Pic and American Guy should go and live in the East End of London, it was bad enough when I was growing up, now you wouldn't believe that you were in England.
I am not racist by any means, the world is our oyster and we can go anywhere we want and we have visited lots of countries, but NZ is where the heart is for us. We felt we belonged, which is a feeling that I have never had here in the UK. 

The only feeling I have here in the UK, even in the rural areas, is that 'Big Brother' is always watching you, making sure that you are keeping up with the 'Jone's', that your house and garden isn't making the village looking messy. or they don't like your hobby or you because you are not from a priveleged background and think that you are crooked and earnt your money that way.

There are too many people with too many hangups or time on there hands, that they feel they have the right to interfere with your life, but you have no right to do the same. 

I just want to be treated the same way that I would treat others, there are only 2 classes of people in this world, givers and takers and I can honestly say that I am a giver.

I apologise if I have offended anyone by my comment. 

unquote

Darla, I am not a politician, I am a simple person who wants a simple life. We thought we had that when we moved to a hamlet, wrong. People are often willing to take from us (I know we could say no, but it is not in our nature to do so and they know it) and then stab you in the back because you don't fit in to the category that they want you to fit into.

30 years I have waited for this moment, my other half was neither here nor there and couldn't understand why I felt the way I did. Last year he understood after we spent a month's holiday. We didn't stay in hotels and avoided most of the tourist traps and got to know the real people. 

Hopefully everyone will eventually find happiness where ever they may be. Life is too short and we all need to grab it while we can before it's too late.


----------



## dawnclaremaddox

topcat83 said:


> Lol! It took me ages to work out the punctuation needed! Shout if you need help... (or anything deleted to tidy up)


Thanks Topcat, I think I might have messed up again, please keep checking for me.
Ta!


----------



## anski

Sorry I missed out seeing this thread when it was first posted. Amazed at some of the hostile remarks about NZ.

Having travelled extensively myself I have observed some of the same issues raised about NZ whilst visiting or living in other countries.

I have recently returned from a visit to the town of my birth in England, I left there when I was 9 & can honestly say I am grateful my parents migrated because I would not want to live there today. Granted it is a working class town with a mixture of housing & some very nice houses at the top end for the few that can afford them. Still looking around at the number of young obviously unwed mothers, pushing prams & smoking, the foul language, graffiti made me want to get the next bus out. My sister has lived there in the same semi detached house for 77 years & walking around local streets with her she complained that the pavements were a mess & to save money councils are going to turn street lighting off at night. Only hope no one falls over on the uneven footpaths!

As for France I lived in the South West in one of old houses built from the pretty coloured stone in the Dordogne but driving to the north one encounters very different architecture & drab dirty grey decrepit housing.
Paris- rude & indifference from service people hearing my bad French pronunciation because they REFUSED to communicate with me in English!
On a train journey from outer Paris into the city- urban slums & more ugly graffiti. Not the same images that France tourism promotes.

USA- also spent some wonderful time but was shocked at the vagrants & beggars in San Francisco & other places. The trailer parks (where the less affluent live permanently) could hardly be called anything but an eyesore!

So I think if you look at ANY country close up without rose tinted glasses you will always see the unattractive places.

Fail to see how anyone could form anything but an initial like or dislike from a brief recce to any country. You really need to live anywhere for at least 12 months before you can form a reliable opinion.

So many places are so very different to the holiday experiences when faced with the every day issues of living in any particular country.

Some of the statements made about NZ being full of rubbish, well don't know where that person chose to live but it certainly is not the case where I lived (& going to be living again soon) apart from when Auckland City Council had it's clean up day which I think took place once a year. Then you could see unwanted items put out on the footpath often few days before the scheduled week the collection was on. Often most was scooped up by people driving around & I guess posted on Trademe. 
We had a big clean when leaving NZ, hired a large skip & filled it with unwanted stuff & left over renovation material, a few minutes later a guy pulled up & starting taking things so I invited him down to our garage where the overflow was & told him he could help himself-there was'nt a cm of space in his 4x4 when he drove off

I always say if life was perfect in their own country for most of these moaners they would never even contemplate moving to NZ in the first place unless they had a desire to explore.

For any potential migrant to judge a country from the rants of others (that do not like or cannot make a go of life in NZ or anywhere else for that matter) is nothing short of stupid.

As for salaries -accepting a position without first checking out the facts of what others actually earn or the true cost of living is like walking into a noose.

I would imagine also the salary for Otago University would be significantly lower that that of University of Auckland. Property used to be significantly lower in Dunedin than Auckland also.

So much research can be dome on the net these days that ignorance is a poor excuse.

So to sum it up NZ is not perfect but can anyone tell me where is?

I prefer it to Australia- for me Auckland is like a mini version of Sydney which was my home for 32 years. However Sydney has grown in population & urban sprawl, there is almost perpetual rush hour traffic despite the introduction of toll roads. It now is expensive to get from A to B.

Auckland has almost everything Sydney has & is definitely easier to navigate if you choose where to live & work. People are friendlier & willing to assist if you are in trouble & at my stage of life I prefer it.


----------



## anski

Also forgot to add to the statement about the high interest rates charged on mortgages- well this is relative to the interest rates on offer to investors which at time in NZ has been over 7%.

If you did not have investors in the first place there would be no money to offer home purchasers. You do not need to be a scientist to work that out.

As for the USA & low mortgage rates YEAH sure but they give you 0% on your savings accounts!

Same applies to UK.


----------



## timb0

I have some thoughts on New Zealand that maybe have repeated what other people have said. I'm a fan of NZ.

The obvious first is that for the size of country it has a low population - although I think NZ punches well above its weight a population of 4 million is not going to be able to produce the same background cultural life as a country with fifteen times the population such as the UK.
Being a smaller country the degrees of separation between people is less and I was often surprised how people could establish that they knew the same person even though they lived hundreds of miles apart. Thats good in someways bad in others - sometimes you don't want your reputation to precede you.

This includes things like consumer choices and the range of activities.

Some things which wouldnt get a lot of attention in the UK becomes big news in NZ. The UK has gangs and NZ has gangs - in NZ I always thought that the 'gang problem' received masses more attention than similar issues in the UK with the effect that every amateur pundit had a view on it, mostly ill informed from what I remember.

Secondly although New Zealand was largely settled from the UK and superficially can seem quite British (much less so now than when I was there in the eighties) there are some major cultural differences. In the UK we've tolerated a lot of structural unemployment from people who probably could work. Although NZ has its social problems there is much more of a sense of getting on with life and succeeding - the 'can do' attitude. There are rubbish places to live in NZ but probably no worse than anywhere else.

Houses in much of the country do seem more 'temporary' its not fair to call them glorified sheds though. They are pretty much like houses anywhere else on the inside and generally have more space around them for outside living. Crucially you don't want to be living in a rigid structure if there is an earthquake risk.

The architecture in Europe is phenomenal - NZ doesn't have the variety or the quantity - and although UK towns tend to have the same chains of shops it has more of them with the effect that Kiwi towns look very samey with a smaller selection of samey shops.

Kiwis tolerate greater distances to go and see things and do them. When a Kiwi says 'it isn't far' that could still be an hour and a half away.

The government is governing a smaller society and although it is westminster-like there is only one chamber in parliament with the effect that government change can work incredibly quickly compared to the sluggish pace in the UK. This is good when the government are doing things which are in your interests less so when you disagree with them. Access to Government ministers is much easier. When David Lange (late and by me lamented) was PM a mate of mine popped into his surgery and had a long chat with him. Recently another Kiwi I know bumped into Helen Clark a recent PM and had a chat whilst she was at Stonehenge. There are not many places in the world where the average person can have that kind of access. People expect democracy and access in NZ - I'm not sure they really do in the UK. 

I'd be interested to know what other people's thoughts are on any of the above.


----------



## Darla.R

scubadoo said:


> Dear Pic - I had to join this forum just to send you a reply.
> 
> I just wanted to say that you are absolutely correct in everything you say. It is not just you, there are a great majority of migrants from first world Countries saying this these days. Those from India and alike think it is heaven of course!
> 
> Statements made by migrants (Some English) that costs are lower etc are just not true, they are fooling themselves. It is easy to complete an accurate cost analysis based on facts and this proves that NZ is unaffordable and a low socio-economic country. This is constantly backed up by news items showing this to be the case, such as Campbell Live on Tuesday 05.04.11. On this show a migrant from Wales said that he moved to NZ for a better life and found it..........but that was 25 years ago and it is no longer a better life in NZ.
> 
> Some migrants do find it better here and some of that depends on your personal circumstances and field of employment as well as what you are used to and expect. Often there is a role reversal with those who are poor in the UK doing well and those who are professionals with an education being pushed down. There is often a 'certain type' of person who does well in NZ and England is all the better for them leaving the UK!!
> I came from the University of Oxford where I worked with Sir Walter Bodmer. My family and I have had a terrible time and I am unemployable here and get paid less than any tradesman for what jobs there are. We are leaving and fully intend to take out an extensive campaign to alert prospective migrants to the 'real NZ'. It will still suit some but at least they will all have more info than we did.
> 
> When you post negative comments about NZ you can expect a torrent of bullying and abuse. It is the kiwi way! But this does not change the facts. As you say NZ is all image and no substance, kiwis protect that image at all costs. Unfortunately they are too short sighted to see that the attitude to migration in NZ will have profoundly damaging effects on the NZ image and economy in the not so distant future. The number of people making these comments is growing exponentially and they are getting out into the world and telling people. The NZ bubble will burst!
> _[deleted advertising]_
> It is common here for those who complain and cause a stir to be silenced by any means necessary; this tells you everything about the people, the country and the morals. It is an immature, petty, bigoted, third world, nepocracy.
> 
> Hope you get out intact. Regards.





anski said:


> "these moaners" they would never even contemplate moving to NZ in the first place unless they had a desire to explore.
> 
> "rants of others"
> 
> "nothing short of stupid"
> 
> "ignorance is a poor excuse"


Again, a validation of the point that scubadoo makes. if he was correct about the bullying and abuse I put it to you he is correct about the other things he's taken his time and effort to talk about.

Ignorance is a poor excuse, therefore I applaud scubadoo for making the effort to inform others. He is giving us the chance to walk in his shoes and live vicariously through him for a brief while



scubadoo said:


> Hi kiwigser - you posted a comment that I was ranting and needed to state some facts so I have. Enjoy!
> 
> Hi - yes there are good and bad points to all places but not all places heavily advertise themselves as 'the best country in the world' or godzone and bring in migrants to fill skill shortages that simply do not exist and for better pay and conditions that do not exist.
> 
> I had a meeting with a lady from the Dept of Labour last week and even she was truly horrified at the treatment and salaries we had been subjected to in Dunedin as qualified and skilled migrants.
> 
> Some of my comments are Dunedin specific, since I live here. People tell me that Dunedin is a special case and I can see some validity in this, but I can also see that many of the issues are nationwide. MAny things in Dunedin are VERY expensive including food, gas, new builds etc. I assesed the cost of building here and proved time and time again that it costs $100k more to build the house in Dunedin than anywhere else in NZ!!
> 
> Admittedly there have been good points but these have been heavily outweighed by the bad. In time, once we are away, we may look a little more fondly on our time here but right now it is all too raw.
> 
> As for facts here are some -
> 
> *Better work/life balance - No*
> People work more hours per week in NZ than the UK, usually 40 hours however NZ productivity is low as statistics and the NZ economy clearly show over decades.
> In NZ people get 20 days annual leave, in the UK we get at least 38 days annual leave plus more statutory days than in NZ.
> You often spend as much or often more time stuck in traffic getting to and from work in NZ as in the UK, in most centres (Not so much in Dunedin). NZ Immigration advertises that traffic and travel problems are things of the past when you move here.
> 
> *Lower cost of living - No*
> Official stats clearly show that NZ has the second highest cost of living in the OECD. Only Australia is more expensive. This is well publicized in the media and on the web. It is easy to do a comparison by checking the UK prices online, it needs to be assessed as a percentage of take home pay.
> On paper you pay less tax in NZ, but you need to figure in the many items which are tax free or low tax in the UK. Doing this shows that you pay about 10% more tax in NZ depending on what you buy.
> I have found the BMW index (Similar to the MacDonald’s index) to be the most accurate cost of living comparison. For me it calculates how many new 5 series BMW's I can buy per year of gross pay in the UK and in NZ it is years of gross pay per 5 series! Electricity, heating diesel, LPG etc are all expensive in NZ and it costs more to heat an equivalent house in NZ than in the UK.
> Campbell Live on Tues 05.04.11 clearly demonstrated that a healthy diet in NZ, with farm fresh produce, is not affordable for most of the population.
> 
> *Affordable housing – No*
> Especially considering what you get for the money, the cost of building materials to update, the low salaries and the high costs of living, then housing is unaffordable. This has been well publicized especially recently with NZ housing shown to be severely unaffordable by official stats and the Government.
> 
> *Clean and green - No*
> As we know this is an IMAGE used for marketing. It is comparatively clean and green because of the low population but the pollution and carbon footprint on a per population basis is high. The WHO report in 2008 clearly demonstrated that if everybody on the planet used resources at the same rate as the average New Zealander then we would need 3.5 planets to sustain the population of the planet already. Admittedly NZ is not necessarily the worlds worst, but it is not the 'world leader' in green living it professes to be and has a much missed opportunity in this regard. Don't forget the inadequate or no existent waste water treatment systems and multitude of septic tanks. Beaches in 'clean green NZ' undergo constant monitoring for coliforms and are often closed.
> 
> *Also not forgetting that well established official figures clearly show that NZ has -*
> The highest levels of depression in the OECD
> The highest levels of child poverty,
> The highest levels of child abuse,
> The highest levels of domestic violence,
> The highest overall crime figures,
> The highest levels of fraud,
> The highest levels of respiratory illness.
> 
> This represents just some of the official data and is a clear indicator of a low socio-economic Country which is less than first world. True, there are some people with a lot of money in NZ and they can turn a blind eye to these facts and enjoy the positives, but an 'I'm alright Jack' attitude and no social conscience cannot be considered good or acceptable.
> Generally speaking NZ is much more 'every man for himself' than many places, although this attitude is somewhat endemic in human civilization.
> I could also sit here and think how much better I am doing than the vast majority of New Zealand but my principals would never allow this.
> 
> :ranger:


----------



## Darla.R

anski said:


> I prefer it to Australia- for me Auckland is like a mini version of Sydney which was my home for 32 years. However Sydney has grown in population & urban sprawl, there is almost perpetual rush hour traffic despite the introduction of toll roads. It now is expensive to get from A to B.
> 
> Auckland has almost everything Sydney has & is definitely easier to navigate if you choose where to live & work. People are friendlier & willing to assist if you are in trouble & at my stage of life I prefer it.


But you don't like New Zealand enough to spend winters there. You said you were going back to Europe at that time of the year. 

Why don't you feel you can make a permanent committment to the country? I hope that you're not just using it to access medical care. That's not fair, the service is stretched enough already.


----------



## anski

Darla.R said:


> But you don't like New Zealand enough to spend winters there. You said you were going back to Europe at that time of the year.
> 
> Why don't you feel you can make a permanent committment to the country? I hope that you're not just using it to access medical care. That's not fair, the service is stretched enough already.


Darla. R Yes I do spend my summers in Europe because I can afford to as I have both the money & the time & I happen to enjoy Europe in summer!

No I do not use New Zealand for medical care -again I can afford to pay for private medical care.

Darla. R I also do not access medical care in Australia although I am entitled to probably more than you are.

Why do I have to make a permanent commitment to any country? 

Why don't you stick your nose back in Australia & stop making provocative statements?


----------



## topcat83

anski said:


> Darla. R Yes I do spend my summers in Europe because I can afford to as I have both the money & the time & I happen to enjoy Europe in summer!
> 
> No I do not use New Zealand for medical care -again I can afford to pay for private medical care.
> 
> Darla. R I also do not access medical care in Australia although I am entitled to probably more than you are.
> 
> Why do I have to make a permanent commitment to any country?
> 
> Why don't you stick your nose back in Australia & stop making provocative statements?


Go girl :clap2:


----------



## kiwigser

We seem to have an Agent provocateur or two on this thread, just trying to stir it, possibly from one of our rival forums that takes great pleasure in mocking the contributors here. It is about their level just above teenager standard.

Anyway a lot facts and figures have been have been broacast. I have tried to find the best impartial website with most of the figures.

Murders (per capita) statistics - countries compared - NationMaster

I have left it on murders per capita so that you can see what to change.

Some of the stats for NZ and Aus are not there do to insufficent data. One member quoted that NZ had the highest child poverty in the OECD, my findings say 18%, not brilliant but under the USA and the UK. Crime we seem to be beneath Aus. and a few other countries.

Fraud was also metioned that we hit the top, not quite we are third below Germany and the UK

Frauds (per capita) (most recent) by country

This is getting a bit boring so if you are interested have look for yourself.


WE are also supposed to be poor because of the low value of the dollar (NZ), if you coming from Europe you will get a lot less for your money. When we emigrated the pound was 2.9, its now struggling around 2.1. NZ dollar was about about 54 cents USA, now 76 cents.

The Aussie dollar is very high because they pay 3.5% interest , NZ 2.5% Europe 1.25, USA 0.5 and UK 0.5. Once the rest of the world raise their rates, things will balance out a little, well I hope so, I still have money in the UK I wish to bring across.

Sorry about this boring post, all facts and figures.


----------



## Darla.R

anski said:


> Darla. R Yes I do spend my summers in Europe because I can afford to as I have both the money & the time & I happen to enjoy Europe in summer!
> 
> No I do not use New Zealand for medical care -again I can afford to pay for private medical care.
> 
> Darla. R I also do not access medical care in Australia although I am entitled to probably more than you are.


I don't think you are. You have to be resident in Australia to access Medicare. 

You are not a resident and do not pay your Medicare levy therefore you are ineligible. I fulfill all those requirements.

If you want it you'll need to come back here to live. 



> Why do I have to make a permanent commitment to any country?
> 
> Why don't you stick your nose back in Australia & stop making provocative statements?


I think it's only fair if you're going to use the services of a country to be contributing to it in a postiive way. There's also the risk that through becoming a Ping Pong Pom you're going to jeopardise your future security, which you can ill afford to do at your stage in life.

I'm sorry, I'm not intending to be provocative but thought provoking. People are going through the same old thought patterns and I had an idea it would help if they tried to see things from a different perspective for once.

It would be a refreshing change if people could acknowledge some of the wider issues beyond the usual my country is better than yours scenario. It is a pointless exercise and there's nothing to be gained from it

When I started my discourse I said that it was refreshing to read something from someone with a brain between his ears. I hoped that others would be capable of articulating their thoughts without discending into personal abuse and aggression: to have an adult conversation about these things

Whilst some people tried to do this a disppointingly high number didn't. I leave you to reflect on why that is the case.


----------



## kiwigser

Darla.R said:


> It would be a refreshing change if people could acknowledge some of the wider issues beyond the usual my country is better than yours scenario. It is a pointless exercise and there's nothing to be gained from it


Wel, if thats what you believe, you did not start very well, just constant knocking of NZ, nothing positive, except perhaps that sublty Aus is better, not stated but implied. And now we get the hurt, no one understands me routine.

Anyway thats me finished on the thread, more interesting contributors to help.


----------



## Darla.R

kiwigser said:


> Wel, if thats what you believe, you did not start very well, just constant knocking of NZ, nothing positive, except perhaps that sublty Aus is better, not stated but implied. And now we get the hurt, no one understands me routine.
> 
> Anyway thats me finished on the thread, more interesting contributors to help.


Why do you say that? I'm not hurt in the slightest. I admit that I am disappointed that some people displayed the very bullying and abusive traits that scubadoo was complaining about.

This thead is called *Obersvations about some of the downside of New Zealand* scubadoo was adding his own observations to it whilst you and a couple of others tried to shoo it off track.

It's probably best that you make no further contribution to it because all you're doing is demonstrating one of the downsides of New Zealand. Or if you do have something to say perhaps you'd be better saying it when you're not on the wrong side of a bottle of Merlot?


----------



## topcat83

Can I suggest that all parties stop the b!tc!ng? This forum is about useful discussion - not about personal agendas. If anyone wants to continue the personal tirades can I suggest they join Scubadoo on 'that other forum' where it is encouraged, and leave this forum to the grown-ups.


----------



## anski

Darla.R said:


> I don't think you are. You have to be resident in Australia to access Medicare.
> 
> You are not a resident and do not pay your Medicare levy therefore you are ineligible. I fulfill all those requirements.
> 
> If you want it you'll need to come back here to live.
> 
> Not exactly the case. former residents are entitled to Medicare for up to 5 years after departing Australia!
> 
> During my time in Australia I raised a family, built several houses,established a large import business & paid every tax you can name AND I am still paying tax on my investments.
> 
> 
> I think it's only fair if you're going to use the services of a country to be contributing to it in a postiive way. There's also the risk that through becoming a Ping Pong Pom you're going to jeopardise your future security, which you can ill afford to do at your stage in life.
> 
> Of so you know my or what stage I am at in my life? well don't assume. My goodness you are really getting personal. You do not not know me or what position I am in.
> 
> In NZ I also pay substantial tax & own property. I am not a Ping Pong Pom I am an Aussie & proud of it and one that has managed to accumulate a few pence in my working life that now affords me the freedom to live where I want.
> 
> If you do not want to make provocative posts then you should think how you phrase statements in the future so as not to antagonise other contributors.. Your remark insinuating I was using NZ to my advantage for the purpose of accessing free medical care was highly insulting.
> 
> AND besides if I was -so what about it? Because I pay taxes there I am entitled to free health care


----------



## anski

topcat83 said:


> Can I suggest that all parties stop the b!tc!ng? This forum is about useful discussion - not about personal agendas. If anyone wants to continue the personal tirades can I suggest they join Scubadoo on 'that other forum' where it is encouraged, and leave this forum to the grown-ups.


Topcat, sorry I will not respond to any more of this slanging match, but I draw the line when some person not even living in NZ accuses me of using NZ for the purposes of rorting the medical system.

It has been a long thread & always interesting to read of the different experiences other migrants have encounter. Not everyone makes a successful transition from one's homeland to their adopted country. Maybe it's the true grit & determination that make for a successful migration.

I personally know of several migrants that came from the UK, Sicily & Slovenia many years ago with nothing except the shirt on their backs & became self made millionaires.

If ever you want to read about a pioneering family who escaped from the Potato Famine of Ireland a must read are the books written by Dame Mary Durack "Sons in the Saddle" was one of them that was a biographical account of the Durack family's early life in Australia before going on to become cattle barons & politicians.


----------



## Darla.R

Why are you getting so upset? you talk enough about having retired, living in Australia for 30 something years then moving to NZ in the early 90s. It's not unreasonable to assume that you're in your late 60's early 70's.

Don't you remember the advice you gave on the NZ Living Costs thread when you were living in Sydney


> NZ is pretty but so are lots of other places in the world & we have made more friends here in 5 months than we did in 8 years in NZ. Travel from Au or NZ is expensive also. Think carefully before you make the move.


All I'm saying is think carefully before you jeopardise your future security, think carefully before you make the move and don't become a ping pong pom. 

The reason being - if either NZ or Australian immigration or health services get the faintest whiff that you're returning to either country simply to access medical services you may be refused it. I'm not saying that's your intention, but that's how it may appear to them.


----------



## anski

kiwigser said:


> We seem to have an Agent provocateur or two on this thread, just trying to stir it, possibly from one of our rival forums that takes great pleasure in mocking the contributors here. It is about their level just above teenager standard.
> 
> Anyway a lot facts and figures have been have been broacast. I have tried to find the best impartial website with most of the figures.
> 
> Murders (per capita) statistics - countries compared - NationMaster
> 
> I have left it on murders per capita so that you can see what to change.
> 
> Some of the stats for NZ and Aus are not there do to insufficent data. One member quoted that NZ had the highest child poverty in the OECD, my findings say 18%, not brilliant but under the USA and the UK. Crime we seem to be beneath Aus. and a few other countries.
> 
> 
> Fraud was also metioned that we hit the top, not quite we are third below Germany and the UK
> 
> Frauds (per capita) (most recent) by country
> 
> This is getting a bit boring so if you are interested have look for yourself.
> 
> 
> WE are also supposed to be poor because of the low value of the dollar (NZ), if you coming from Europe you will get a lot less for your money. When we emigrated the pound was 2.9, its now struggling around 2.1. NZ dollar was about about 54 cents USA, now 76 cents.
> 
> The Aussie dollar is very high because they pay 3.5% interest , NZ 2.5% Europe 1.25, USA 0.5 and UK 0.5. Once the rest of the world raise their rates, things will balance out a little, well I hope so, I still have money in the UK I wish to bring across.
> 
> Sorry about this boring post, all facts and figures.


Kiwigser,

Not boring statistics are always interesting & Thanks for digging up the facts. The fraud statistics amaze me in relation to Germany especially.

Having lived in Spain & Cyprus where fraud in endemic I would have thought they would have featured at a higher place. Either they are not being honest or the individual amounts involved are petty by comparison to other countries.

I do remember whilst living in Spain just prior to the introduction of the € a German man driving a Mercedes Benz was intercepted by the Guardia Civil with the request to open his boot. It was full of money & when asked to explain how he obtained the money he said it was his savings accumulated from his work as a mechanic! 

He was asked why he was transporting it in his boot & not through the normal bank transfer to which he replied it was to buy property in Spain. Needless to say it was confiscated due to him not being able to substantiate how he got it. Not sure if all of it went into the Police headquarters!


----------



## Darla.R

scubadoo said:


> *Also not forgetting that well established official figures clearly show that NZ has -*
> The highest levels of depression in the OECD
> The highest levels of child poverty,
> The highest levels of child abuse,
> The highest levels of domestic violence,
> The highest overall crime figures,
> The highest levels of fraud,
> The highest levels of respiratory illness.
> 
> This represents just some of the official data and is a clear indicator of a low socio-economic Country which is less than first world. True, there are some people with a lot of money in NZ and they can turn a blind eye to these facts and enjoy the positives, but an 'I'm alright Jack' attitude and no social conscience cannot be considered good or acceptable.
> Generally speaking NZ is much more 'every man for himself' than many places, although this attitude is somewhat endemic in human civilization.
> I could also sit here and think how much better I am doing than the vast majority of New Zealand but my principals would never allow this.
> 
> :ranger:


Scubadoo I'd like to see your sources for the official figures you listed, especially fraud because my impression is that New Zealand is relatively free from this problem.


----------



## NZ32

Darla.R said:


> I don't know why you're asking me questions to which only you could possibly know the answer.
> 
> I must therefore assume that the reason why you're staying is because you're either retired, or are approaching retirement and have brought enough money from Britain with you to be able to do the things you want at this time of your life.
> 
> It must be hard for you to acknowledge that you're part of the problem and one of the reasons why New Zealand has the issues it does.
> 
> Both you and sdh080 are very quick to try to discredit the negative remarks, however you both did something useful by proving that Scubadoo was correct in his "torrent of bullying and abuse" comment. If he was correct about that don't you accept that he's correct about other things too?
> 
> I noted that neither of you touched on the issue of outward migration from New Zealand instead choosing to focus on cockroaches and anything else you could take an easy shot at.
> 
> That in itself is interesting, why are you aiming for the low handing fruit? because its easier than acknowledging the branch is about to fall on your head?
> 
> The big issue that you've failed to see is that highly skilled people like scubadoo were brought over to improve the country that YOU live in. He and people like him are there to improve YOUR quality of life and they are leaving.
> 
> He was treated so shabbily that not only is he trying to leave but he's felt compelled to write about it on a public forum so that other people like him don't make the same mistakes. That must take a lot of guts and I commend him for it
> 
> You should be mortified that your new country is losing people like him, you should be trying to find out what your country needs to do to keep him because you need him.
> 
> Please hope that neither of you, or your families ever need specialist spinal care in New Zealand.


I have seen what Scubadoo has written on this forum and also a few other forums and I agree it was a bad move to come to NZ from a place like Oxford.

However, some of his posts have been externally very critical of the peer reviewed work of ex-collegues at certain institutions in which he was employed and which he has named. Given the very specialized nature of his field and being in a small place like Dunedin he is effectively exposing his own identity and those of his colleagues. This is very unprofessional and somewhat naive. Someone with an Oxford education should know better than that. It may be fine to do this internally but externally is unacceptable and may even be illegal. It therefore come as no surprise that he cannot get a job in NZ.

While in some respects it is a shame that someone so qualified is lost to NZ, the last thing any employer wants is a back stabber. As an employer I would rather employ someone less qualified and less able technically than someone thats going to say things they shouldn't (which may be confidential) to people they shouldn't.


----------



## Hagabel

pic said:


> Hm, I guess I wrote myself into a hot frenzy there in "the worlds longest forum post". Nevertheless we just came back from a trip to one of the national parks (a word that means "protected land" in other countries). Again we were forced to rethink our decision to leave NZ, when looking at the breathtaking landscape. But then we saw that "national park" means "amusement park" in NZ, with 300 Ski Lifts on land that was donated by the Maori to be protected and cherished, not to be run to the ground with tourism. (I wonder who pockets the money that is made on the sacred mountains. The Maori chief who donated the land must turn in his grave with sad rage every winter season)
> 
> And to shorten the discussion about good versus bad comments: Your view onto NZ explains itself based on where you come from. If you come from Europe and the US, NZ is 2-3 grades down in job security, housing, democratic stability, safety and earning power. When you come from other countries, it is 2-10 grades up in all those aspects. I would bet that most of the positive posts were made by people originating from India, Asia, the former Soviet Union, South America, Eastern Europe, Africa and countries with similar political/economical/social conditions (or from people who live close to the bottom of the economic ladder in Europe or the US) No problem with NZ being at the lower end of democracy, if it wasn't for the falsified statistics and misleading brand image that NZ fabricates to trick international professionals into thinking they can find adequate work here. American Guy was clever and checked the facts personally before moving here. My husband and I, we just didn't think that a government would play with the asset of the hard working professionals that are the breadwinners of each country so carelessly. That still blows my mind, but it helps to see NZ as a third world country to understand how economic desperation drives a nation to exploit and then throw away the good people instead of using them to lift NZ out of poverty.
> 
> The heart wrenching aspect about New Zealand is that just the beauty of the landscape alone would justify living here, if new Zealanders wouldn't systematically destroy everything beautiful and turn the country into a trash-littered Trailer Park, which you have to look at every day as you drive through it to work or to the stores. And even if you found a still untouched piece of land, there would already be those ugly little sections, half filled with overpriced box houses that look like a dog sheds. You know, those houses where the bath tiles are put up on the outside (to hose down the house?) and where the top of the windows touch the roof (a design that takes the European traditional style and just saves a few inches of material resulting in this ridiculous caricature of a squashed wood cabin). Ironically, with that missing space above the windows it looks like the face of someone with a very low forehead.
> 
> And now people with countries that have been striped of all wood, fish, wildlife and other natural resources have discovered NZ and are in the process of consuming it up until there is nothing left. NZ is like a gigantic, mostly unprotected national conservation park and a little paradise for all who like to fish, hunt, camp and house-build the worlds ugliest houses, as if there was no tomorrow. For someone who doesn't give a damn, life is always easy and great, ESPECIALLY in New Zealand where one can safely harvest, cut down, run down, cover with concrete and litter with garbage. Of course these people would have only good things to say about NZ but I think I wouldn't have anything good to say about them.
> 
> It's not easy to leave NZ's natural beauty behind and we'll definitely be back, but not to work and live here, only as tourists, like all others who would have helped to push NZ to world standard but instead are pushed out by the mediocre and greedy who can now again be safely amongst themselves and continue to stew in their own juices.




Your posts are very amusing and entertaining. I think you need to go the _[deleted - advertising another forum]_, you will be right at home there slagging off NZ with the other people.

I am, however, genuinely sorry NZ is not working out for you.

I have plenty of friends who have moved from the US and are very happy there.


----------



## Hagabel

PomBear said:


> I agree, I can't understand why people didn't like her/he in NZ lol. Try relocating to the US the UK already has enough idiots!




LOL..don't send them here, we have plenty already...one of the reasons we are leaving the US!!


----------



## Darla.R

NZ32 said:


> I have seen what Scubadoo has written on this forum and also a few other forums and I agree it was a bad move to come to NZ from a place like Oxford.
> 
> However, some of his posts have been externally very critical of the peer reviewed work of ex-collegues at certain institutions in which he was employed and which he has named. Given the very specialized nature of his field and being in a small place like Dunedin he is effectively exposing his own identity and those of his colleagues. This is very unprofessional and somewhat naive. Someone with an Oxford education should know better than that. It may be fine to do this internally but externally is unacceptable and may even be illegal. It therefore come as no surprise that he cannot get a job in NZ.
> 
> While in some respects it is a shame that someone so qualified is lost to NZ, the last thing any employer wants is a back stabber. As an employer I would rather employ someone less qualified and less able technically than someone thats going to say things they shouldn't (which may be confidential) to people they shouldn't.


I think Scubadoo is a product of the environment he found himself in in New Zealand, I doubt that he would have been so vociferous if he'd not be treated so poorly. He's not the only one to leave under these circumstances, there are plenty of medical specialist leaving because of similar reasons.

As I said, the loss is ultimately that of anyone in New Zealand who may one day need specialist spinal care. It won't help them in the slightest to ignore the message and shoot the messengers. It is little wonder that no one wants to talk about these things, they just up and leave.

So why are New Zealand-trained doctors leaving?

"Morton et al cite no specific reasons for significant dissatisfaction from departing doctors, however those staying have been more explicit. Recent reports of email from junior doctors sent to Health Minister David Cunliffe during the recent 48-hour nationwide junior doctors strike paint a more concerning picture. They fear the NZ system is “becoming Third World as doctors leave,” and they themselves are “at breaking point due to the dilemma of cutting corners...debating whether to throw my chair at the wall or cry in response to the ongoing pressure and frustration of having inadequate numbers of staff available.”

"McComb examines GPs’ occupational commitment to stay in general practice and how commitment can modulate other factors to stabilize a workforce. Such commitment needs to be supported in the face of continuing global pressures. This is increasingly difficult however given the current perceived difficulties in the NZ health system. 

The hostile environment generated by difficulties relating to patient care, protracted Union negotiations and strikes, involving both senior and junior staff is not conducive to recruiting and maintaining clinicians in the NZ medical workforce.
Morton cites respondents’ favourable impression of teaching gained from senior clinicians while employed at Christchurch Hospital. Unfortunately benefit from this teaching is lost, as the doctors have left—resulting in no long-term gain for the NZ health system. If the healthcare environment supported NZ-trained doctors staying in NZ for their house officer years and beyond, this mentorship could be of long-term benefit to the NZ health service. As it is, our medical school graduates are receiving similar mentorship and support to continue a career in health systems overseas.

NZ graduates moving overseas for training are exposed to an environment offering long-term jobs with better financial rewards, research, and education opportunities. NZ must compete on all these levels to foster long-term career development to attract those people back. "

Note the mention of research. 

(From the New Zealand Medical Journal)


----------



## NZ32

> I think Scubadoo is a product of the environment he found himself in in New Zealand, I doubt that he would have been so vociferous if he'd not be treated so poorly. He's not the only one to leave under these circumstances, there are plenty of medical specialist leaving because of similar reasons.


I don't condone bullying, and it should not happen to anyone. But it seems that Scubadoo has a bit of an attitude problem.

As an employer I see things all the time, staff/employees with bad attitudes.

What do you expect me to believe.

1. Scubadoo has an attitude problem.

or

2. A NZ university that has a high international reputation is producing rubbish research, even in pair reviewed journals. Also a company he worked for everyone was rubbish except for him.

I don't want to sound like I'm condoning any bad treatment Scubadoo received or that NZ does not need people of his skill but I think sometimes people also have to take a look at themselves. NZ may not be a place for everyone, but it does not mean that these people are blameless.

As an employer, I think highly qualified people are a great assett to any company. But as an employer I also want team players, and people who will work with others for the good of the company. People who can create something, not destroy something.


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## kiwifruity

Downside?? Hmm....have been here almost a year, and have not come across
any negative aspects as yet, that is just our family - we love our slice of heaven! I have done a few bungee jumps, gone rock climbing and am actually going fishing with my other half and our boys!! Now that a bloody first, I used to cook the fish, now I catch them! I'm sure there are some negatives, every Country has them. Maybe I am so in love with this lovely Island, I am not looking hard enough....

Only downside from our side - we should have done this move years ago!!!!!!! 

Cheerio!


Roxy


----------



## anski

kiwifruity said:


> Downside?? Hmm....have been here almost a year, and have not come across
> any negative aspects as yet, that is just our family - we love our slice of heaven! I have done a few bungee jumps, gone rock climbing and am actually going fishing with my other half and our boys!! Now that a bloody first, I used to cook the fish, now I catch them! I'm sure there are some negatives, every Country has them. Maybe I am so in love with this lovely Island, I am not looking hard enough....
> 
> Only downside from our side - we should have done this move years ago!!!!!!!
> 
> Cheerio!
> 
> 
> Roxy


Roxy,

Yes I am also an Aussie who moved to NZ in 2001, I have to confess that although I had travelled all over the world I had never been to NZ. 

On my first visit to Auckland I fell in love with Mission Bay, but then I spent my childhood in Sea Point so found it very similar.

Over the years I found Sydney had become so busy, population had grown ,peak hour traffic was never ending, parking impossible & if you found a spot so terribly expensive.

Although my family live in Australia,thankfully it is only a short flight and I doubt if I would want to visit if my family did not live there. I have seen nearly every part of Australia & these days I prefer to explore new locations.

Auckland to me is a mini version of Sydney (because it has everything Sydney has) & the people in Auckland are friendly & helpful.


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## Darla.R

I know what you mean about Sydney but it's great for the occasional shopping trip or weekend away at the theatre, or if there's a concert on.

Although Auckland has its charms I think it would have to go a long way to be a mini version of Sydney  I'm wondering what the Auckland equivalent of the Opera House is? 

The Aotea Centre?










and what is Auckland's Olympic Park?

Surely culture isn't the reason why the doctors are leaving?


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## jenswaters

Darla.R said:


> I know what you mean about Sydney but it's great for the occasional shopping trip or weekend away at the theatre, or if there's a concert on.
> 
> Although Auckland has its charms I think it would have to go a long way to be a mini version of Sydney  I'm wondering what the Auckland equivalent of the Opera House is?
> 
> The Aotea Centre?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and what is Auckland's Olympic Park?


Exaclty, Darla...."mini"!!! Nothing in the world comes close to replicating the Sydney Opera House. In terms of cosmopolitan city boutique shopping, I guess Auckland is the NZ "MINI" version of Sydney. How pedantic!


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## anski

Darla.R said:


> I know what you mean about Sydney but it's great for the occasional shopping trip or weekend away at the theatre, or if there's a concert on.
> 
> Although Auckland has its charms I think it would have to go a long way to be a mini version of Sydney  I'm wondering what the Auckland equivalent of the Opera House is?
> 
> The Aotea Centre?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and what is Auckland's Olympic Park?
> 
> Surely culture isn't the reason why the doctors are leaving?


Although Auckland has its charms I think it would have to go a long way to be a mini version of Sydney  I'm wondering what the Auckland equivalent of the Opera House is? 

The Aotea Centre?

Darla R. You cannot make comparisons based on external appearances alone. Architecture & location is not sufficient reason to create an excellent venue. 

I think the Sydney Opera House is beautiful & I remember the problems that arose during it's lengthy build including the lack of a car park nearby & difficult access for disabled people. I remember the many nights I experienced walking along a very wet, windy exposed area to get to the Opera House & the time I missed out on very eagerly awaited events & gave 2 concert tickets to a friend because I could not negotiate the steps in a full plaster cast.

If you want to compare Auckland with Sydney well there are many entertainment venues & all very different in age & architecture.

The Auckland Town Hall which is a lovely old building & where I enjoyed the NZ Symphony Orchestra. Auckland Town Hall | Great Hall & Concert Chamber - THE EDGE

The Aotea Centre which hosts many events & has recently been redeveloped Aotea Centre | ASB Auditorium & Herald Theatre - THE EDGE 

Both of the above venues have parking which has been provided since 1976.

Vector Arena is Auckland's answer for larger capacity events. WELCOME TO VECTOR ARENA - THE ENTERTAINMENT HUB OF THE PACIFIC - Home


_and what is Auckland's Olympic Park?_

Well I cannot answer that as I am not the least bit interested in sports & have never been to the Sydney Olympic Park.

No doubt after the RWC NZ will have better sports venues.

Auckland does have lovely parks & gardens dotted around the city & pedestrians enjoy walking along Tamaki Drive with the shoreline totally unobstructed by buildings along the shoreline & numerous cafes & cinema on the opposite side of the road.

Surely culture isn't the reason why the doctors are leaving?[/QUOTE]

People in various professions come & go for various reasons all the time.

My husband's surgeon ( University of Auckland) educated, moved to the UK & USA to take up positions to further his expertise. After a few years he returned to Auckland where he is top of the heap in his speciality performing 500 life saving operations annually. 

I am sure he is just one of the many examples publicised of people that leave NZ for various reasons. Funny they don't report the people who return, that is why I think the reports are unreliable.


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## Darla.R

Next time you're over in Sydney Anski you should visit Olympic Park, I think you'd be pleasantly surprised. It's so much more than just a sporting venue. I think the athlete's village is now student accommodation for Macquarie University.

The only similarities I can see between Sydney and Auckland are they both have traffic problems, expensive parking, a harbour bridge and a tall needle like structure with a viewing platform at the top. But Sydney's saving grace over Auckland has to be that it has an integrated public transport system.

But I digress, this thread is supposed to be observations about some of the downsides of New Zealand, _not_ the benefits of other places.

I've just re-read the post that kicked this thread off, considering it was written in early 2010 the points Pic makes are even more salient today.


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## anski

The following remarks were made by my husband, a professional musician.

"As a performer in the Sydney Opera House the acoustics are not up to the quality of the build, they had to install all sorts of gimmicky (do-nuts ) to improve the sound but it has not really worked.
Speaking as a performer who has worked in both the Vector Arena Auckland & the Sydney Opera House, acoustically the Vector Arena wins hands down.

The other downside of the Sydney Opera House is lack of seating. The Concert Hall is the largest interior venue & only seats 2,679 maximum and that number would not cover the cost of major performances. 

The Sydney Entertainment Centre (with maximum seating of 12,500) was built to host major events but fails miserably having one of the worst acoustics on the planet & sound technicians that should be shot.

The Vector Arena has a good sound system, adequate seating for over 12,000 (fail in the comfort department) but they can both take a lesson from the Auditorio de Tenerife. AUDITORIO DE TENERIFE compartimos emociones 

It looks as cool as the Sydney Opera House, has very comfortable seating, fantastic sound system for both amplified & unplugged acoustic performances. The acoustics are so good you could drop a playing card on the stage & hear it in the back row.
Furthermore it has a bar, drinks are served in glasses (Not paper or plastic cups) & tapas at very reasonable prices.
Alongside is a free outdoor car park & there also is a indoor car park which costs 50c an hour!
Coupled with astonishing low tickets prices Concerts in this venue can cost as little as €6 for local performers to €25 for international performers, Opera costs a little more."


----------



## anski

Darla.R said:


> Next time you're over in Sydney Anski you should visit Olympic Park, I think you'd be pleasantly surprised. It's so much more than just a sporting venue. I think the athlete's village is now student accommodation for Macquarie University.
> 
> The only similarities I can see between Sydney and Auckland are they both have traffic problems, expensive parking, a harbour bridge and a tall needle like structure with a viewing platform at the top. But Sydney's saving grace over Auckland has to be that it has an integrated public transport system.
> 
> But I digress, this thread is supposed to be observations about some of the downsides of New Zealand, _not_ the benefits of other places.
> 
> I've just re-read the post that kicked this thread off, considering it was written in early 2010 the points Pic makes are even more salient today.


Having lived in Sydney when the population was a little over 2 million & comparing it today with over 4.5 million I can honestly say I preferred Sydney in the 1960's

I have no desire to visit Sydney other than as a connecting point for flights between AU & NZ on family visits.

Traffic & transport problems in Auckland are dependant on where you live, same as anywhere else in the world.

One of the reasons I choose to live in Mission Bay (7km from the city) was so I would not be affected by traffic problems. 

It it is in close proximity to hospitals, university, theatres etc. I can drive into the city in peak hour in 20 minutes, & halve that time out of peak periods.
I can park in the city all day (Early bird parking for NZ $13) which I do not consider expensive in comparison to other major cities worldwide.
I can also use an excellent & regular bus service into the city when I can no longer drive.

Auckland is a lovely city & I cannot understand the reasons for the constant put downs.


----------



## topcat83

NZ32 said:


> I don't condone bullying, and it should not happen to anyone. But it seems that Scubadoo has a bit of an attitude problem.
> 
> As an employer I see things all the time, staff/employees with bad attitudes.
> 
> What do you expect me to believe.
> 
> 1. Scubadoo has an attitude problem.
> 
> or
> 
> 2. A NZ university that has a high international reputation is producing rubbish research, even in pair reviewed journals. Also a company he worked for everyone was rubbish except for him.
> 
> I don't want to sound like I'm condoning any bad treatment Scubadoo received or that NZ does not need people of his skill but I think sometimes people also have to take a look at themselves. NZ may not be a place for everyone, but it does not mean that these people are blameless.
> 
> As an employer, I think highly qualified people are a great assett to any company. But as an employer I also want team players, and people who will work with others for the good of the company. People who can create something, not destroy something.


Well said! I also regularly interview people for jobs - and often, I don't employ the person with the best qualifications (and have occasionally employed people without _any_ qualification, and trained them). I always look for someone with the right attitude. You can't get a bit of paper for that.


----------



## Darla.R

anski said:


> Having lived in Sydney when the population was a little over 2 million & comparing it today with over 4.5 million I can honestly say I preferred Sydney in the 1960's
> 
> I have no desire to visit Sydney other than as a connecting point for flights between AU & NZ on family visits.
> 
> Traffic & transport problems in Auckland are dependant on where you live, same as anywhere else in the world.
> 
> One of the reasons I choose to live in Mission Bay (7km from the city) was so I would not be affected by traffic problems.
> 
> It it is in close proximity to hospitals, university, theatres etc. I can drive into the city in peak hour in 20 minutes, & halve that time out of peak periods.
> I can park in the city all day (Early bird parking for NZ $13) which I do not consider expensive in comparison to other major cities worldwide.
> I can also use an excellent & regular bus service into the city when I can no longer drive.
> 
> Auckland is a lovely city & I cannot understand the reasons for the constant put downs.


What "constant put downs" ? this is what I said
_I know what you mean about Sydney but it's great for the occasional shopping trip or weekend away at the theatre, or if there's a concert on.
Although Auckland has its charms I think it would have to go a long way to be a mini version of Sydney_" 

and

"_The only similarities I can see between Sydney and Auckland are they both have traffic problems, expensive parking, a harbour bridge and a tall needle like structure with a viewing platform at the top. But Sydney's saving grace over Auckland has to be that it has an integrated public transport system_."
(note the word integrated)

I admit I'm not a city type but how you can construe any of that as a "constant put down" of Auckland is beyond my comprehension.


----------



## topcat83

Darla.R said:


> What "constant put downs" ? this is what I said
> _I know what you mean about Sydney but it's great for the occasional shopping trip or weekend away at the theatre, or if there's a concert on.
> Although Auckland has its charms I think it would have to go a long way to be a mini version of Sydney_"
> 
> and
> 
> "_The only similarities I can see between Sydney and Auckland are they both have traffic problems, expensive parking, a harbour bridge and a tall needle like structure with a viewing platform at the top. But Sydney's saving grace over Auckland has to be that it has an integrated public transport system_."
> (note the word integrated)
> 
> I admit I'm not a city type but how you can construe any of that as a "constant put down" of Auckland is beyond my comprehension.


I don't think Anski was referring just to this thread


----------



## Darla.R

Anski's lived in both places, I'm sure she knows it is not as black and white as some would believe 

This is an enormously popular thread topcat, people are obviously very interested in this topic - despite all the hijack attempts.


----------



## YoungsSpecialLondon

Darla.R said:


> I've just re-read the post that kicked this thread off, considering it was written in early 2010 the points Pic makes are even more salient today.


You mean like its opening sentence: "The best advice one can give skilled NZ immigrants today is to wise up about NZ. Imagine working in a third world country or the former "DDR" and you get the picture."

Yeah. I get the picture all right - of a lunatic.


----------



## YoungsSpecialLondon

Hmm. Perhaps I should apologise for that last remark. It was a bit intemperate. Still, I don't think that pic could be said to have engaged in a sober assessment of NZ. Leastways I don't write like that unless I've been on the turps in a big way.


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## topcat83

YoungsSpecialLondon said:


> Hmm. Perhaps I should apologise for that last remark. It was a bit intemperate. Still, I don't think that pic could be said to have engaged in a sober assessment of NZ. Leastways I don't write like that unless I've been on the turps in a big way.


I think we all have our own opinions of Pics posts. Mine? They were entertaining!


----------



## sdh080

The truth as is often the case with topics like this - somewhere in the middle.


----------



## Darla.R

YoungsSpecialLondon said:


> You mean like its opening sentence: "The best advice one can give skilled NZ immigrants today is to wise up about NZ. Imagine working in a third world country or the former "DDR" and you get the picture."
> 
> Yeah. I get the picture all right - of a lunatic.


Is what Pic said so very different to what Michael Laws (ex mayor, politician and media commentator) says about New Zealand? 

Smugly standing idle, with our hands out | Stuff.co.nz



> ON THURSDAY, Finance Minister Bill English will deliver a Budget that will confirm New Zealand as a national Kaitoke. Not part of real civilisation but not quite Third World. Somewhere in-between.
> 
> In the space of just one generation, we have descended from developed to deadbeat. And we are borrowing $380 million a week to sustain such relative disgrace. If we stopped borrowing, the banana boat would already be here. This is because we are a smug people. We think that we live in the greatest country on the planet and that should be enough. It is the most infinite of mysteries to Kiwis as to why the world does not owe us a living. So we borrow.





sdh080 said:


> The truth as is often the case with topics like this - somewhere in the middle.


Michael Law thinks New Zealand hovers somewhere between a real civilisation and not quite third world.


----------



## Darla.R

I've never had the good fortune to go to Kaitoke. What's it like?


----------



## YoungsSpecialLondon

Darla.R said:


> Is what Pic said so very different to what Michael Laws (ex mayor, politician and media commentator) says about New Zealand?


That's no recommendation as far as I'm concerned. 

And the article you linked to is full of glaring errors. First he talks a lot of wibble about the economy and public spending, and then a lot more wibble about how if we just smacked our children it would all be much better.

I could pick it to pieces if you like. I think I'll restrict myself to asking: do you really - really take this sort of stuff as serious comment?


----------



## Darla.R

YoungsSpecialLondon said:


> if we just smacked our children it would all be much better.


You have a peculiar way of looking at things. He didn't say that at all. He was talking about New Zealanders across the Tasman:



> They are neither PC nor bound up in the guilty angst that is the non-Maori response to race relations in this country. They still smack their kids but send their crims to jail much longer. There are jobs aplenty for the skilled and the willing. And the sun shines. It is an intoxicating combination.
> 
> Good for them. Those of us left face the reality that we are not Australia. And that all the government-appointed taskforces are not going to make us such. We are too far behind and trailing further in our neighbour's wake. There will never be wage parity or the kind of benefits that Treasurer Swan can trim with impunity.


How you could misconstrue that as "if we just smacked our children it would all be much better" says more about your perceptions than it does about Michael Laws'. 

I'm glad we've sorted that one out.


----------



## topcat83

Darla.R said:


> You have a peculiar way of looking at things. He didn't say that at all. He was talking about New Zealanders across the Tasman:
> 
> 
> 
> How you could misconstrue that as "if we just smacked our children it would all be much better" says more about your perceptions than it does about Michael Laws'.
> 
> I'm glad we've sorted that one out.


I'm afraid I found most of Pics stuff to be gobbledygook - so is it even worth discussing again (and again and again.... :yawn: )


----------



## Darla.R

Most but not all?  that must mean that some of it is understandable. There's enough interest in the thread to have kept it going for this long, so not everyone finds it boring.



pic said:


> Should you still try to get a work visa from Europe or the US before coming here? Why not, but it might not be worth the paper that it is written on, because you can easily spent 6 months to a year here (finance with your own money) without being hired (despite several jobs available you would be a perfect match for) and then you have to return anyway.


Looks ok to me and isn't much different to what was appearing in the press. If I were emigrating to New Zealand a failure rate of 44% would be anything but boring to me.

'Frivolous' migrant visas shatter hopes, dreams - National - NZ Herald News



> Immigration New Zealand's "frivolous" issuing of work-to-residence visas is being questioned by migrant support groups as the country's unemployment rate hits new highs.
> 
> The agency issued 2261 work-to-residence visas and permits last year despite 44 per cent of those immigrants already here on such visas failing to find employment.


Under those circumstances I'd be sure to have a firm offer of work before I left, or enough money to support myself until I found one. Which is what Pic was saying.


----------



## topcat83

Darla.R said:


> Most but not all?  that must mean that some of it is understandable. There's enough interest in the thread to have kept it going for this long, so not everyone finds it boring.


Pic took 10% truth and padded it with 90% gobbledygook. So you can spend your time picking the nuggets out if you want. Me? I can't be bothered.


----------



## dubioustranger

I've read Pic's post (I gather it's a "she")...mmm...don't know really what to think, because I've never been to NZ.I'm French too, but expatriate in Costa Rica.
I guess one should sort out the whole message and try to read between the lines, or "take it with a grain of salt" : some of it sounds true, but knowing my fellow Frenchmen, I acknowledge they are prone to exxaggeration (it's a typical Gallic feature, I would say). 
I can't believe NZ for instance is _dirtier_than France, where some places look like third world garbage dumps...


----------



## Alexi

You are absolutely right about New Zealand Pic, after reading your post i believe that you have hit every detail about this country. As a New Zealander myself it became apparent after living in France, that this is fast becoming a country ruled by greed, where the country is becoming richer but the people are becoming poorer.


----------



## dubioustranger

I don't know about NZ.
But I can tell you as a world-travelled Frenchman that if a country is ruled by greed indeed,it's definitely France!


----------



## jenswaters

dubioustranger said:


> I don't know about NZ.
> But I can tell you as a world-travelled Frenchman that if a country is ruled by greed indeed,it's definitely France!


Funny, isn't it, how we all have a negative view of our own "home" countries? I feel the same about the UK, but there are others who love it. I guess that if we are no longer living in our "home country", then there is a reason why we left, and are still gone. Kiwis, Brits, French, Aussie...we often see the grass is greener elsewhere on here IN MOST CASES.


----------



## NZ32

dubioustranger said:


> I've read Pic's post (I gather it's a "she")...mmm...don't know really what to think, because I've never been to NZ.I'm French too, but expatriate in Costa Rica.
> I guess one should sort out the whole message and try to read between the lines, or "take it with a grain of salt" : some of it sounds true, but knowing my fellow Frenchmen, I acknowledge they are prone to exxaggeration (it's a typical Gallic feature, I would say).
> I can't believe NZ for instance is _dirtier_than France, where some places look like third world garbage dumps...


A few years ago I spent a week on a canal boat in southern France on Canal Du Midi. None of the canal boats in France have sewage tanks, the sewage from all the boats is pumped directly into the canal just like would happen in a 3rd world country. Not only that but I also saw people swimming in it. Imagine if that happened in NZ?


----------



## Darla.R

That goes on in New Zealand too.

Light House Marine : Newsroom

But did you know that high levels of norovirus are being found in shellfish in Whangarei harbour? There's been a fatal outbreak of the virus in the town and contaminated waste water flowed out into the harbour where it affected the marine life.

Deadly virus in Whangarei Harbour - Local News - Northland Northern Advocate

No shellfish can be collected from the harbour until July.


----------



## YoungsSpecialLondon

Darla.R said:


> You have a peculiar way of looking at things. He didn't say that at all. He was talking about New Zealanders across the Tasman:
> 
> 
> 
> How you could misconstrue that as "if we just smacked our children it would all be much better" says more about your perceptions than it does about Michael Laws'.
> 
> I'm glad we've sorted that one out.


Don't evade the question. I ask you again, do you seriously think that the article constitutes serious comment?

(when you've done this I'll answer your point above)

What point do you think he's trying to make?


----------



## Darla.R

YoungsSpecialLondon said:


> That's no recommendation as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> And the article you linked to is full of glaring errors. First he talks a lot of wibble about the economy and public spending, and then a lot more wibble about how if we just smacked our children it would all be much better.
> 
> I could pick it to pieces if you like. I think I'll restrict myself to asking: do you really - really take this sort of stuff as serious comment?


 The conversation meandered on whilst I was waiting for you to think of a reasonable explanation as to why you thought Laws was recommending that if "we all smacked our children it would be so much better" 

I've noticed that this is a trait with you - when you don't agree with something you rubbish it rather than try to think about it rationally. You start making random comments: "Wibble" 'smacking kids will make things better' "Yeah. I get the picture all right - of a lunatic." "on the turps" etc.

I have no opinion on whether Pic was making serious comment or not, it's difficult to smell turps over the internet. As far as I can see he, or she, seems to be talking about the same things as some other credible people. Michael Laws for one.


----------



## YoungsSpecialLondon

Firstly, apologies for the delayed response. I had to spend a week abroad at short notice.

Perhaps I have been a little over-scathing on this thread. But that is because its genesis - a post purporting to set out why NZ was such an awful place - was really nothing more than a series of assertions that weren't supported. You may think that I have a tactic of attempting to rubbish arguments that I don't like. Actually, all I do is see if an assertion has been supported. If it isn't, then as far as I'm concerned, no point has been made and it is indeed rubbish.

I'll assume that you think Laws' article is serious comment for the time being - although it does cross my mind perhaps you meant that pic can't be taken seriously because Michael Laws agrees with her. I wouldn't subscribe to such a view myself although I have some sympathy with it 

Before I go any further I should point out when Laws was a regular Herald columnist I regularly looked out for what he wrote, as it seemed good sound common-sense. But I don't think the article you linked to is up to his previous standards. Here's why:

Basically Laws argues as follows (as I understand him):-
------------------------------------------------
-the Budget will confirm NZ as part way to the third world;
-it will confirm this because the Prime Minister can't be sufficiently honest about the state the country is in;
-if he did, he'd be hoofed out;
-he'd be hoofed out because New Zealanders are too smug to realise how bad things are. 
- therefore he borrows instead;
- in fairness to the PM, he has warned us by pointing to unsustainable expenditure (Kiwisaver, Working for Families, superannuation, welfare beneficiaries and their children, the unemployed - NZ is poor);
-this compares unfavourably with Australia (evidence: its own Budget and job growth, minerals and India and China on its doorstep);
-therefore NZers with gumption go, whereas the indolent stay;
-the gumption of these emigrants is shown by a) not being PC b) not being guilt-ridden c) smacking their children and d) dealing with criminals more harshly;
-notwithstanding the above, we make things worse for ourselves by not exploiting natural resources (oil, coal) due to a pretence (does he mean belief?) that we can save the world through our own poverty.

Conclusion according to Laws: we will become a Southern Hemisphere PIG and should merge with Australia.
----------------------------------

I will ignore my impulse to point out where Laws is (to my mind) engaging in hyperbole, and take it all at face value. I will not let a single facial muscle twitch while I write the following.

First, NZ isn't a third world country because it's per capita GDP is considerably higher than even the richest Third World country. Now, "third world" didn't originally mean "poor" - it meant a state that was non-aligned during the Cold War. These states were generally poor. None of those states have anything like NZ's GDP per capita with the exception of the UAE and Bahrain and perhaps Saudi and Oman. I doubt Laws has those states in mind. Especially given they do extract their oil resources and Laws complains that we don't.

There are of course other characteristics that tend to get associated with the Third World. These include extreme poverty, malnutrition, corruption in government, political instability, non-independent judiciary, basic schooling system, and epidemics. No objective measure could say that NZ suffered from any of these.

NOw, to be fair to Laws, he did say that NZ was only on the way there and only borrowing prevented it. However, if Laws ought to make his point properly, he ought to put the dollar sum borrowed with the dollar sum of revenue and lending, and also consider NZ's fiscal deficits down the years. He doesn't mention, for example, that the NZ government paid down debt for fifteen years straight until last year. The result of this is that NZ's public debt in proportion to GDP is nowhere near the PIGS. In fact, it is considerably less than the OECD average. For the previous fifteen years, NZ ran surpluses and paid off debt with the result that public borrowing is now at a low level in comparison to other first world countries.

It is better to conclude that the recession has given NZ tax revenues a knock, and the government has opted to reduce public expenses to balance the books. The government might alternatively decided to have raised the top level of income tax from 38% - comparatively low by OECD standards - but it chose not to - in fact it reduced it further, albeit balancing it out with a GST increase to a (still low) 15%.

Laws might also have mentioned that NZ had record terms of trade last year (ie, stuff sold by the NZ economy less stuff bought by the NZ economy). NZ has a healthy trade surplus at the moment, and this is forecast to continue.

Laws doesn't mention any of these things. All he does is say a) we are borrowing therefore b) we're on our way to third world status. Now, when I went to the bank to apply for a mortgage I didn't reflect that I was on the road to insolvency. Laws might say this was rash of me. I might respond by saying that I had decent collateral and enough income to pay it off by instalments. I think my position would be the more reasonable.

Second, he says that the PM isn't able to tell us how bad things really are. Given that I've said that Laws ignores facts indicating that things aren't that bad, this point becomes irrelevant - the PM has no genuinely bad things to tell us. 

Likewise - if NZers are smug, then perhaps they have something to be smug about.

Second, NZ is doing worse than Australia.
I actually do agree with Laws here. NZ is doing much worse than Australia. However, by the same comparison, Zimbabwe is doing much better than Somalia. Australia is fortunate enough to have great mineral wealth. It can keep its economy running simply by digging the stuff out. But Laws' point seems to be that NZ's comparatively inferior performance actually equals poor performance across the board. This point doesn't follow. No one would reasonably say that Tottenham are a bad team because they are not as good as Manchester United. 

Third, the indolent stay. 
I think I'll leave this point aside until Laws himself leaves New Zealand for Australia.

Fourth, we don't exploit our natural resources.
Actually we do, and we were doing so even more before the Pike River disaster. In the meantime, dairy exports appear to be doing a pretty reasonable stand-in.

I think I've given this article far more time than it deserved. Still, I hope that explains why I don't think that it provides any support for saying that NZ is in a bad state - certainly not to the level of pic's OP.


----------



## topcat83

A well presented argument, YoungSpecialLondon - I love it! :clap2:


----------



## Darla.R

YoungsSpecialLondon said:


> Firstly, apologies for the delayed response. I had to spend a week abroad at short notice.
> 
> Perhaps I have been a little over-scathing on this thread. But that is because its genesis - a post purporting to set out why NZ was such an awful place - was really nothing more than a series of assertions that weren't supported. You may think that I have a tactic of attempting to rubbish arguments that I don't like. Actually, all I do is see if an assertion has been supported. If it isn't, then as far as I'm concerned, no point has been made and it is indeed rubbish.
> 
> I'll assume that you think Laws' article is serious comment for the time being - although it does cross my mind perhaps you meant that pic can't be taken seriously because Michael Laws agrees with her. I wouldn't subscribe to such a view myself although I have some sympathy with it
> 
> Before I go any further I should point out when Laws was a regular Herald columnist I regularly looked out for what he wrote, as it seemed good sound common-sense. But I don't think the article you linked to is up to his previous standards. Here's why:
> 
> Basically Laws argues as follows (as I understand him):-
> ------------------------------------------------
> -the Budget will confirm NZ as part way to the third world;
> -it will confirm this because the Prime Minister can't be sufficiently honest about the state the country is in;
> -if he did, he'd be hoofed out;
> -he'd be hoofed out because New Zealanders are too smug to realise how bad things are.
> - therefore he borrows instead;
> - in fairness to the PM, he has warned us by pointing to unsustainable expenditure (Kiwisaver, Working for Families, superannuation, welfare beneficiaries and their children, the unemployed - NZ is poor);
> -this compares unfavourably with Australia (evidence: its own Budget and job growth, minerals and India and China on its doorstep);
> -therefore NZers with gumption go, whereas the indolent stay;
> -the gumption of these emigrants is shown by a) not being PC b) not being guilt-ridden c) smacking their children and d) dealing with criminals more harshly;
> -notwithstanding the above, we make things worse for ourselves by not exploiting natural resources (oil, coal) due to a pretence (does he mean belief?) that we can save the world through our own poverty.
> 
> Conclusion according to Laws: we will become a Southern Hemisphere PIG and should merge with Australia.
> ----------------------------------
> 
> I will ignore my impulse to point out where Laws is (to my mind) engaging in hyperbole, and take it all at face value. I will not let a single facial muscle twitch while I write the following.
> 
> First, NZ isn't a third world country because it's per capita GDP is considerably higher than even the richest Third World country. Now, "third world" didn't originally mean "poor" - it meant a state that was non-aligned during the Cold War. These states were generally poor. None of those states have anything like NZ's GDP per capita with the exception of the UAE and Bahrain and perhaps Saudi and Oman. I doubt Laws has those states in mind. Especially given they do extract their oil resources and Laws complains that we don't.
> 
> There are of course other characteristics that tend to get associated with the Third World. These include extreme poverty, malnutrition, corruption in government, political instability, non-independent judiciary, basic schooling system, and epidemics. No objective measure could say that NZ suffered from any of these.
> 
> NOw, to be fair to Laws, he did say that NZ was only on the way there and only borrowing prevented it. However, if Laws ought to make his point properly, he ought to put the dollar sum borrowed with the dollar sum of revenue and lending, and also consider NZ's fiscal deficits down the years. He doesn't mention, for example, that the NZ government paid down debt for fifteen years straight until last year. The result of this is that NZ's public debt in proportion to GDP is nowhere near the PIGS. In fact, it is considerably less than the OECD average. For the previous fifteen years, NZ ran surpluses and paid off debt with the result that public borrowing is now at a low level in comparison to other first world countries.
> 
> It is better to conclude that the recession has given NZ tax revenues a knock, and the government has opted to reduce public expenses to balance the books. The government might alternatively decided to have raised the top level of income tax from 38% - comparatively low by OECD standards - but it chose not to - in fact it reduced it further, albeit balancing it out with a GST increase to a (still low) 15%.
> 
> Laws might also have mentioned that NZ had record terms of trade last year (ie, stuff sold by the NZ economy less stuff bought by the NZ economy). NZ has a healthy trade surplus at the moment, and this is forecast to continue.
> 
> Laws doesn't mention any of these things. All he does is say a) we are borrowing therefore b) we're on our way to third world status. Now, when I went to the bank to apply for a mortgage I didn't reflect that I was on the road to insolvency. Laws might say this was rash of me. I might respond by saying that I had decent collateral and enough income to pay it off by instalments. I think my position would be the more reasonable.
> 
> Second, he says that the PM isn't able to tell us how bad things really are. Given that I've said that Laws ignores facts indicating that things aren't that bad, this point becomes irrelevant - the PM has no genuinely bad things to tell us.
> 
> Likewise - if NZers are smug, then perhaps they have something to be smug about.
> 
> Second, NZ is doing worse than Australia.
> I actually do agree with Laws here. NZ is doing much worse than Australia. However, by the same comparison, Zimbabwe is doing much better than Somalia. Australia is fortunate enough to have great mineral wealth. It can keep its economy running simply by digging the stuff out. But Laws' point seems to be that NZ's comparatively inferior performance actually equals poor performance across the board. This point doesn't follow. No one would reasonably say that Tottenham are a bad team because they are not as good as Manchester United.
> 
> Third, the indolent stay.
> I think I'll leave this point aside until Laws himself leaves New Zealand for Australia.
> 
> Fourth, we don't exploit our natural resources.
> Actually we do, and we were doing so even more before the Pike River disaster. In the meantime, dairy exports appear to be doing a pretty reasonable stand-in.
> 
> I think I've given this article far more time than it deserved. Still, I hope that explains why I don't think that it provides any support for saying that NZ is in a bad state - certainly not to the level of pic's OP.


Thank you for taking the time to write such a full response, it's a relief to see you getting away from your wilder 'turps and smacking kids' statements. I wonder if you would be so kind as to provide some hard data / figures to support what you've said.

I've not got the time to go through it in detail now so will restrict myself to making an observation.

The value of NZ's exports rose by 17% in year to the end of April 2011, largely due to increased demand for milk powder, butter and other dairy commodities, which also caused the NZ dollar to rise. 

This may be good news for those working in the dairy and allied industries, but not so great for those who don't. It does nothing to stem the brain drain across the Tasman, nor does it do much for the recruitment and retention of highly trained or skilled people such as doctors or engineers. 

(I refer you back to my earlier post regarding So why are New Zealand-trained doctors leaving?)

Whilst Laws comment



> the basic problem is that New Zealand is poor. If we didn't have cows, we would be a sober Ireland.....our bovine beauties are the only reason we're not bankrupt.


was obviously tounge-in-cheek (New Zealand has a horrendous alcohol problem) there is truth in so much as the economy is too heavily reliant on dairy for its prosperity. 

Unfortunately even that wasn't enough to keep the country out of the recession that Australia managed to escape.


----------



## YoungsSpecialLondon

Darla.R said:


> Thank you for taking the time to write such a full response, it's a relief to see you getting away from your wilder 'turps and smacking kids' statements.


Very kind of you. But I stand by my previous comments and beg to note that I actually pointed out just where Laws implies that smacking children is good.



> I wonder if you would be so kind as to provide some hard data / figures to support what you've said.


No I shan't. I think I've said enough to make my point to neutral observers. Go and get the figures yourself from the Treasury website if you like.



> I've not got the time to go through it in detail now so will restrict myself to making an observation.
> 
> The value of NZ's exports rose by 17% in year to the end of April 2011, largely due to increased demand for milk powder, butter and other dairy commodities, which also caused the NZ dollar to rise.
> 
> This may be good news for those working in the dairy and allied industries, but not so great for those who don't. It does nothing to stem the brain drain across the Tasman, nor does it do much for the recruitment and retention of highly trained or skilled people such as doctors or engineers.


You're being picky.

Laws' point was that NZ was living off borrowing. I said it wasn't, and said why. You have (inadvertently) given a reason why the NZ economy is indeed not living off borrowings.

Would you say that Australia's mineral exports are good news for those in mining, but not for anyone else?




> the basic problem is that New Zealand is poor. If we didn't have cows, we would be a sober Ireland.....our bovine beauties are the only reason we're not bankrupt.
> 
> 
> 
> was obviously tounge-in-cheek (New Zealand has a horrendous alcohol problem) there is truth in so much as the economy is too heavily reliant on dairy for its prosperity.
Click to expand...

Well of course. But its underlying promise is still wrong. New Zealand isn't poor. While dairy has become an important export earner, NZ is far from reliant on it and does in fact export many other things. Dairy is just (currently at least) akin to the growth component of an investment portfolio.



> Unfortunately even that wasn't enough to keep the country out of the recession that Australia managed to escape.


I'm not sure that was a serious point, but if it was, you really are being obtuse.


----------



## Song_Si

Darla.R said:


> New Zealand has a horrendous alcohol problem


based on? compared to?

WHO figures would suggest UK,Ireland and France have approx 50% higher alcohol consumption per capita (13.3 - 14.4 litres), Australia 10, NZ 9.6, USA 9.4.

Perhaps every country has an alcohol problem.


----------



## topcat83

Darla.R said:


> Unfortunately even that wasn't enough to keep the country out of the recession that Australia managed to escape.


Oops I missed that one... 

Life getting harder for many despite mining boom - World - NZ Herald News

Australia 'headed for recession' after biggest quarterly slump in twenty years | Latest Business & Australian Stock market News | Perth Now


----------



## Gimme5

I'm not going to bother verifying your figures but assuming your stats are correct, drinking more alcohol per capita does not equate more alcohol abuse per capita nor does it even indicate a drinking problem (and of course vice-versa). It's like saying a country has a bigger problem with child abuse just because they are having more babies, which we all know is ludicrous. However you want to slice it, it is widely acknowledged that this country has a binge drinking problem, and a problem with domestic violence I might add.


----------



## kiwigser

Gimme5 said:


> I'm not going to bother verifying your figures but assuming your stats are correct, drinking more alcohol per capita does not equate more alcohol abuse per capita nor does it even indicate a drinking problem (and of course vice-versa). It's like saying a country has a bigger problem with child abuse just because they are having more babies, which we all know is ludicrous. However you want to slice it, it is widely acknowledged that this country has a binge drinking problem, and a problem with domestic violence I might add.


What you say is definitely reported a lot over here, but having lived in the Uk certainly not that bad, most city centres in the UK are no go areas at the weekend.

All the points in this thread have some validity, but some a little OTT. The most crucial point is, will it impact on an new comers way of life in NZ, and the answer is almost certainly no, all countries have a dark side, but if you just went to work, enjoyed your lifestyle and ignored the media, would you actually know about it. I and my large circle of friends and colleagues have not been impacted with any problems. Yes you can worry to death about social problems, they will always be there, but there are a lot bigger problems to worry about, fortunately most are in the northern hemisphere.


----------



## Gimme5

kiwigser said:


> What you say is definitely reported a lot over here, but having lived in the Uk certainly not that bad, most city centres in the UK are no go areas at the weekend.
> 
> All the points in this thread have some validity, but some a little OTT. The most crucial point is, will it impact on an new comers way of life in NZ, and the answer is almost certainly no, all countries have a dark side, but if you just went to work, enjoyed your lifestyle and ignored the media, would you actually know about it. I and my large circle of friends and colleagues have not been impacted with any problems. Yes you can worry to death about social problems, they will always be there, but there are a lot bigger problems to worry about, fortunately most are in the northern hemisphere.


I'm not from the UK so I'm not going to argue which country has a bigger social problem, neither do I care nor think it relevant. Like I said, it is widely acknowledged that NZ has unacceptable levels of social problems like substance abuse, domestic violence, crime, teenage pregnancies, etc (just to name a few). If you don't know this, you need to keep up with the news. If you think that it's just a media beat up, that's alright as well because you're entitled to your opinion. Personally I've seen enough with my own eyes to know we've got an issue that needs to be dealt with. Unlike you, I'm not so certain that these problems will not impact new comers way of life. Many families have been affected in varying degrees and it's only responsible to let people know it's part of the whole package before deciding to come here in the first place. Case in point; a family from Europe whom we met in church who has only been here a few months are already regretting their move. This is not an isolated case. Almost all the people I know who's in that position says NZ has been over-sold and the reality is very different from their perception. That could explain why there are so many negative comments here in this forum. People in general tend not to be so negative if reality meets their expectations whether good or bad because they would have factored everything in and given the complete package the OK before coming over. It's like buying a factory "2nds" coffee table with a scratch on it. No reasonable person would complain after taking it back home. However, it would be a different story if you buy a nice brand new coffee table only to find a scratch after it's been delivered.


----------



## kiwigser

As you are from NZ, you know were the real social problems are and not in the world I move in. It really is a problem for those communities to sort it out, with help from the authorities. I know this sounds insular, but thats reality, an immigrant pom is not much help.

Yes you will get negative comments here, because the members break down into 3 groups, those requiring help, those who wish to help and the ones with a negative point they feel must be aired. The other NZ's could not give a Sh** about our petty scrabbles on the forum, they get on with life.

So shall we agree to disagree and stop boring people.


----------



## Darla.R

kiwigser said:


> As you are from NZ, you know were the real social problems are and not in the world I move in. It really is a problem for those communities to sort it out, with help from the authorities. I know this sounds insular, but thats reality, an immigrant pom is not much help.
> 
> Yes you will get negative comments here, because the members break down into 3 groups, those requiring help, those who wish to help and the ones with a negative point they feel must be aired. The other NZ's could not give a Sh** about our petty scrabbles on the forum, they get on with life.
> 
> So shall we agree to disagree and stop boring people.


Before I replied to this thread I just happened to notice that it has had over half a million views, it appears that not everyone is bored Kiwigser. I've not looked but is there a more popular thread here?

It's a credit to Expatforum that this thread has been permitted to remain largely unscathed, people obviously want the warts n' all. As Gimme5 has said people will happily buy a scratched table if they're aware of the damage beforehand.

I've been doing some research recently into what makes forums vibrant and interesting and those where people are able to exchange views in a civilised and productive manner without descending into name calling and abuse are usually the busiest.

May Expatforum continue to go from strength to strength.


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## Gimme5

kiwigser said:


> As you are from NZ, you know were the real social problems are and not in the world I move in. It really is a problem for those communities to sort it out, with help from the authorities. I know this sounds insular, but thats reality, an immigrant pom is not much help.
> 
> Yes you will get negative comments here, because the members break down into 3 groups, those requiring help, those who wish to help and the ones with a negative point they feel must be aired. The other NZ's could not give a Sh** about our petty scrabbles on the forum, they get on with life.
> 
> So shall we agree to disagree and stop boring people.


You're absolutely right. The so-called social problems in the UK similarly does not seem to exist for my sister who works in a senior position in a prestigious financial institution in central London and lives in a very nice part of the city. The thing with NZ is that the lines here can be a little blurred. 

"The other NZ's could not give a Sh** about our petty scrabbles on the forum, they get on with life." Neither do I. The only reason why I contribute (if you can call it that) is because the crappy weather is preventing me from taking my boat out.


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## kiwigser

Gimme5 said:


> You're absolutely right. The so-called social problems in the UK similarly does not seem to exist for my sister who works in a senior position in a prestigious financial institution in central London and lives in a very nice part of the city. The thing with NZ is that the lines here can be a little blurred.
> 
> "The other NZ's could not give a Sh** about our petty scrabbles on the forum, they get on with life." Neither do I. The only reason why I contribute (if you can call it that) is because the crappy weather is preventing me from taking my boat out.


Now thats a valid reason, Its the same here, but the Friday onwards looks good. My boat got sold do to long queues at the boat ramp, seems every-bodies got a boat round here, so good weather, half a mile to park the trailer. Good fishing!


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## Darla.R

Gimme5 said:


> The outdoor lifestyle here is great and very accessible but I suppose for most families, you get to enjoy that only after you manage to sort out (or come to terms with) the basics.


Maybe the outdoor lifestyle isn't enough, or they're just not prepared to accept the unacceptable?



Gimme5 said:


> it is widely acknowledged that NZ has unacceptable levels of social problems like substance abuse, domestic violence, crime, teenage pregnancies, etc (just to name a few). If you don't know this, you need to keep up with the news. If you think that it's just a media beat up, that's alright as well because you're entitled to your opinion. Personally I've seen enough with my own eyes to know we've got an issue that needs to be dealt with.


Or don't think it's their job to stay around and help deal with these issues?


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## YoungsSpecialLondon

I think it's time this thread was allowed to die a graceful death.


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