# Spouse visa refused



## TNLady (Sep 8, 2014)

We sent in a year's worth of bank statements plus many other documents, including my husband's 1099 form for tax yr 2014, showing how much he earned, which is more than the requirement. We live in the US. He is self-employed and we didn't show exactly where on the bank statements that his checks were deposited, but can do that now. (We hadn't completed our 2014 taxes yet; now we have and can send that). We did show where some rental income had been deposited. 

I don't understand how we can show "evidence of a property to stay in" when we're not there yet. We stayed with my husband's parents for a few months last yr to try out living in the UK. We'd like to stay with them for a few weeks while flat-hunting, but it's my understanding that we can't stay with family because we have to show that we're self-sufficient; is that correct? We may be able to arrange a flat (paying deposit & 1st month's rent from here in the US with difficulty). We have certainly never used public funds and are receiving $1350 a month in rental income from our USA house, which will cover UK rent (as we own our home completely and have no mortgage... which we explained in our application and included the lease agreement for our house). Please help! I want to appeal ASAP. Their letter says:


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## TNLady (Sep 8, 2014)

I can make this a new topic if someone recommends that....?


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## salix (Apr 27, 2014)

It would probably be best if you started a new thread. I don't know about proving self-employment, so I can't help you with that, but I sounds like you didn't provide enough proof.

It's fine to stay with family, but did you provide proof of the accommodation? You'd need a letter of invitation, proof they own the home such as land registry and their council tax bill to prove they live there. You'd also need a housing inspection report to prove the home won't be overcrowded, always needed in shared housing.


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## _shel (Mar 2, 2014)

For self employment they need substantial evidence including your tax return to evidence it was actually taxed income. Looks like you applied too early if you didnt have it. 

You also must evidence suitable accommodation. Staying with family is fine but you must give evidence that they allow it (invite) that they can invite you (their deeds) that it is suitable (proprty inspection).


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## TNLady (Sep 8, 2014)

Where is the all the info on staying with family? I have never seen it. My appeal has to arrive back to them within 25 days. I doubt that'd be enough time to arrange an inspection at my in-law's. How much do they charge for the inspection? What are the requirements exactly, of the home size/rooms? It would be temporary anyway! ...for just a month or so til we find our own place! (Then would we have to resubmit once we've found our own place??) I've been looking online at rental listings but it's hard to arrange our own place without being in the UK.


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## TNLady (Sep 8, 2014)

(PART 2) We thought staying with family was prohibited, because they want to see that we're self-sufficient. We even thought that renting from family would raise a red flag, because how would the gov. know that we're truly paying rent? 

On our last visit (for several months), we also stayed in a friend's house where he has 3 rooms for lodgers. We used 2 rooms (because we have 2 children). If we rented there again, we could pay the deposit, monthly fee and show a lease... would that suffice? But then what about when we move to our own place?


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## nyclon (Apr 3, 2011)

You can only appeal based on information and documents that were available at the time you applied. Since you didn't have accommodation set up when you applied that information will not be taken not consideration nor will current tax returns. Your best option will be to reapply when you have everything that you need.


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## chiefteaofficer (May 27, 2014)

TNLady said:


> Where is the all the info on staying with family? I have never seen it. My appeal has to arrive back to them within 25 days. I doubt that'd be enough time to arrange an inspection at my in-law's. How much do they charge for the inspection? What are the requirements exactly, of the home size/rooms? It would be temporary anyway! ...for just a month or so til we find our own place! (Then would we have to resubmit once we've found our own place??) I've been looking online at rental listings but it's hard to arrange our own place without being in the UK.


From the application guidelines document:



> *Accommodation details*
> 
> You may wish to submit any of the following documents to provide us with evidence of your accommodation. We advise that you do not make any payments for accommodation, travel and so on until you have received your visa.
> 
> ...


I can't tell from your posts if your husband lives in the UK already and you are trying to come over, or if you're coming over together, but either way. They don't tell you exactly what you must supply because every situation is unique. You don't HAVE to have your own house/flat that you own/pay rent on - it can be living with family, friends, whomever, so long as those people provide the required documents to say you can stay there and that it's adequate (ie not you and your husband and 3 other people all living in a 1 bd flat). 

That said, even if you are planning to live with your in-laws for only a month or two while you find your own place, that's completely fine. You just have to show you have a place to go that's suitable when you arrive in the UK. Even if your intention was to move within 2 weeks, that wouldn't matter. You just need to provide what they have asked for.


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## TNLady (Sep 8, 2014)

What? Pay $1500 again!? Can't we just send in the additional tax return of 2014? Everything that we sent in (i.e. 1099) was used on our tax return. There was no place on the form indicating accommodation except "Where will you live?" and I answered "I will rent a 2-bedroom apt. in Kent" - - This is a catch-22. How can I find the apt. from overseas? If I hurry and pay for my own place and submit evidence, but then get refused again, then I will have lost a lot of money to a potential landlord.

"The accommodation that I had set up when I applied" (you wrote above) was that we'd temporarily stay with family (or the same friend as before).... I didn't see anywhere on the form asking for their address or details! 

I can't pay for a new application. It sounds like you only get ONE chance to get it right? When they don't even ask for an invitation, deeds and inspection on the form, how am I supposed to know that's required? (and whether it's for long-term stay or just short-term?) We are also considering living in Ireland instead to establish residency and go to UK from there. It may be easier than this process! 

I will attach a photo of the part of the refusal letter that says I CAN provide supporting documents. Please advise again. It says "If you decide to appeal against the refusal of this application, the decision will be reviewed with your grounds of appeal and the supporting documents you provide. You are strongly advised to complete all sections of the form and submit all relevant documents with your Notice of Appeal, as it may be possible to resolve the points at issue without an appeal hearing."


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## TNLady (Sep 8, 2014)

Chiefteaofficer, thanks; my husband is in the US with me and our kids. We're moving together. If he were already there, staying with parents for example, or friend (as before), then he could easily locate an apt. for us and even move in on his own before I get there.


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## _shel (Mar 2, 2014)

If any of the dates on the documents you missed are after applied you cant use them in an appeal. You can only use evidence that was available to prove you meet the requirements at the time of applying. Yes it means paying again because that is the law.


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## chiefteaofficer (May 27, 2014)

Even though he's in the US with you - what I copy and pasted about accommodation still has to be supplied. That is from their guidelines here:

Spouse Settlement Guidelines

You know that reapplying is much quicker right? An appeal takes about a year usually.


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## nyclon (Apr 3, 2011)

For your appeal you can only provide supporting documents that existed at the time of online application. Nothing after that date will be considered. If you have new tax returns and new information regarding accommodation you can use those for a fresh application.


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## chiefteaofficer (May 27, 2014)

I'm not even suggesting she appeal or anything, just letting her know how long an appeal can take! It's another issue if she gets to the appeal and doesn't win because the documents are no good...


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## TNLady (Sep 8, 2014)

*Pic of letter saying we can submit docs*

Here's the letter:


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## TNLady (Sep 8, 2014)

Wonder why it'd take a year, when they're asking the info in such a hurry (they need to receive it within 28 days of their request) ??


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## nyclon (Apr 3, 2011)

From Applying to join family on the UKVI website:

You must also prove:

you and your family will have an adequate place to live in the UK

https://www.gov.uk/join-family-in-uk/eligibility


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## chiefteaofficer (May 27, 2014)

They need the info quickly because they do sometimes overturn their decision without going to appeals court once you supply new evidence for your application. In this case that won't happen, at a MINIMUM because you did not supply accommodation evidence, and it sounds like in addition you didn't supply the full financial information either (and as stated, this year's tax return won't be valid as it's after your application date). 

But just take a look at other people's appeals in the forum. Most people get their court date in about a year's time. I think UKVI is hoping people will drop the appeal and give up on it. It costs them money/time/resources to process appeals so they don't want people to appeal, of course, even if they know they are going to win. That's one reason why it takes so long. Another reason is that MOST legal things take ages. Just normal when it comes to getting paperwork through courts and getting court dates for anything. There are queues of people waiting for appeals at any given time and you're just #xxxx in line.


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## TNLady (Sep 8, 2014)

Chiefteaofficer, thanks... have you read the last line of their letter to me? It says, "...it may be possible to resolve the points at issue without an appeal hearing." And even if there was a hearing, would I have to go to court in England? Then come back to the US? And re-enter with the Spouse Visa? It's crazy. Maybe those appeals take a long time because of hearings. I saw where you can choose between submitting a paper appeal "to be determined on the papers" (costing 80 pounds), or a court appeal "to be determined at an Oral Hearing" (costing 140 pounds)... I would select the papers. 

Nyclon, also thanks.... as for the supporting documents previously submitted, true, I didn't submit the actual 2014 tax return, but ALL my paperwork for that was submitted. (as well as the complete 2013 return, and they only ask for ONE tax return anyway!) My husband was waiting on a 1099 from a client, but it turns out that they don't send them. 

When I think about a new application, I practically have an anxiety attack. I feel like if it got denied already, I could get refused again! I'd rather 'fix' the existing application. I wish I could be interviewed in person, they would see all the evidence clearly.


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## nyclon (Apr 3, 2011)

You can't "fix" the fact that you did not meet the accommodation requirement. You can only appeal based on documents and facts that were in existence at the time of your online application. Your best option is to reapply once you have met all the requirements.

What financial category or category did you apply under?


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## TNLady (Sep 8, 2014)

i don't know which category; I don't have it handy in front of me... My husband is self employed and we could either choose 1 year or an average of 2 years. We chose 2 yrs. I'll update more later when I have time.


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## chiefteaofficer (May 27, 2014)

I did see the last line they wrote to you. They write that same thing about the right to appeal to everyone who applies for this visa. Because everyone who applies for this visa has the same rights to appeal against the refusal decision. So that wording isn't specific to your application or anything. 

And my earlier response was in regards to this. In SOME cases it will be possible to determine that they have made an error of some sort based on information you provide to them (ie more documents to clarify something further, or a detailed explanation for something they may have misunderstood) and if they did determine they had made an error and you did in fact meet all the requirements, they could overturn their decision without you ever having to make an actual appeal (paper or court). That would be very quick and would be told to you within a couple of weeks of you submitting the documents to them, most likely. 

However, as I stated before (and others have stated this too), they're not going to overturn this decision. Even if they somehow made a mistake on the financial information (it's not clear to me whether they did or not based on your posts because I can't tell what information you were supposed to have provided since self-employment rules are a lot more complicated than if you work for a company) you definitely did NOT provide information about accommodation, which is required for all applicants, whether they have a partner already living in the country or not. That alone is grounds enough for the refusal to stand and not get overturned, and not win an appeal. If there were financial documents missing (whether it was bank statements, tax returns, or anything else), that is even more reason it would be a correct decision by the ECO. 

Nyclon, Shel, etc are right in that you're best to just reapply with all correct information knowing what you did wrong and get it right the second time around. There's no need to panic because you have this forum to help you. Before you apply you can ask everyone here to look over the list of documents you will include in your application before sending it. You can also provide a cover letter explaining your mistake from your previous application with the new one. You can definitely get approved the next time around because you will know exactly what to do.


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## TNLady (Sep 8, 2014)

Instead of re-applying, can we go the Surenda Singh route: live in Ireland, establish residency, and move to UK later? 

Will they see my refusal and will that have a negative effect? 

It's my understanding that my husband, being an EU citizen (of England, that is, and our 2 children are also), can bring me with him (and our children) to Ireland. After proving residency, we can move to England... how does that work exactly, do you know? 

Another thing that irks me is the typos in the letter they sent. If they can't get their English right, I can't respect their decision! Their first sentence sounds odd: "Your application also FALLS to be refused..." (and the "also" is unnecessary because that was the first reason of refusal. The prior page that I didn't photograph says "Requirements met" for Suitability and Partner.)


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## nyclon (Apr 3, 2011)

British English is widely different than American English so while you may not think it's proper, it is here. 

Surinder Singh would require you all to move the centre of your life to another EU country where you do not also hold citizenship. That means that your husband has to be exercising economic treaty rights which means he has to have a local job. You have to prove that you are integrated into the community by doing things like joining a church, clubs, the library, obviously the kids have to be going to school. After 6 months to a year with adequate evidence you can apply under EU rules rather than UK rules. There is no set time but they have to be convinced that you have become entrenched in the community and 6 months seems to be the bare minimum amount of time to prove this.

However, there is no guarantee that the UK is going to remain in the EU so at this point, it might not be the best option.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Coming late to this discussion as I am away, but what other regulars have said is sadly true. Quite apart from financial evidence, you definitely failed on accommodation ground because you had not arranged suitable place to live before submission. Anything else you arrange now, like staying with friends or family, cannot be put forward in your appeal as it won't be accepted by UKVI. 
In your reapplication, read thoroughly Section 9 of Annex FM1.7 on financial guidance about what you must submit in evidence. When you've done a list, show it here so we can comment and advise. Plus arrange temporary accommodation with friends or family. You may need two or three bedrooms depending on family composition (age and gender of children). Again share your documents with us. 
For self-employment under Cat G, you need last two years' completed accounts, plus evidence that your husband is going to continue his self-employment in UK after moving or he has a job offer awaiting.


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## TNLady (Sep 8, 2014)

Oh brother. (thanks, everyone)

Honestly, I think it would be easier to move to Ireland. I can certainly settle in to community life (I was president of my local Chamber of Commerce); love going to church, school, library, etc. We'll be ready to depart in 6 weeks. We'll receive $1300/month in rental income (we have no mortgage to pay), starting next month. 

My husband can get a local job while continuing his self-employment. He is a graphic designer and does computer illustration, which can be done any time of day. He also builds houses, repairs cars and appliances, excels in videography & music, and is an asset any country would benefit by having. However, he cannot do government forms and neither can I. Apparently. 

All the hours we've spent (and money) feels like a drain on my system. At least we're together in the same country. Since he can work anywhere, we'd actually like to go to Greece, but don't know if applying under the EU rules would be as easy as coming from Ireland. We also saw somewhere that one can stay in Greece for 5 years (or more?) if you buy a property worth 250K Euros. Anyone know about that?


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## WestCoastCanadianGirl (Mar 17, 2012)

You'd be best to ask your Greek questions in the Greece branch.


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## TNLady (Sep 8, 2014)

Hi again. I'm sorry, I'm still not clear on exactly why I shouldn't appeal. The refusal letter I received (which I do acknowledge is a form letter sent to everyone) says "If you decide to appeal against the refusal of this application, the decision will be reviewed with your grounds of appeal and the supporting documents you provide." ("Provide" is the present tense, not past tense). Nowhere does it say that only prior submitted documents will be considered, or not to bother with new documents. Nowhere does it say to re-apply. 

How do I know whether to trust this forum, or the Immigration Dept? Over $1,000 is at stake here, so I feel very strange about spending/wasting that on a new app based on input from this forum that I don't know what it's based on.... previous appealers who submitted new accommodation info and were denied? If they deny me based on that, that would contradict what they themselves told me to do! 

They already seem to contradict themselves when they say to send in 6 months of bank statements and then say I'm refused because I sent in a year's worth, and now they need to see TWO year's worth. Why would they say that if they secretly are going to deny my appeal anyway and force me to reapply? 

When I applied, I had read the list of things to provide in the Accommodation section, but figured that doesn't apply to me because I don't have a mortgage, utilities, tax, etc. over there, and it DOESN'T say anywhere that they're referring to the home of a family member! 

Mixed right into the middle of that list is "tenancy agreement" which refers to having your own rental, not staying in family member's house, so that's unclear that it would be a separate route to take. It should say there are 2 ways to show proof of accommodation: #1, staying with family and having them scan in and email their mortgage, tax, utilities, AND a special property inspection (which I had thought was done prior to buying a property... overcrowding hadn't occurred to me, because I thought living with family was forbidden! I thought we HAD to have our own place! and #2 method is by acquiring your own flat without paying a deposit (which is pretty much impossible). 

After I applied, I received an email saying I needed to send in Appendix 2. (It didn't seem applicable to my situation so I had left it out, but upon notification, I sent it in.) Why, at that time, didn't they tell me to submit Accommodation info and more bank statements, plus the 2014 tax return? 

We showed his income clearly, that it was paid to him! ....just not exactly where it was deposited into our bank. Who would ever think that we would be holding onto checks without depositing them?) it really seems like we followed the instructions, but they ADDED to or changed their instructions. 

If anyone wants to call me, I don't mind giving my tel number, and if anyone wants to send me their #, I can call you in the UK. That might help me better understand why not to appeal! My husband thinks we should appeal.... again, not by going to court, just sending in the docs they are requesting. He also thinks that if we had showed a higher income, then they might've overlooked the things we were refused for. It seems really arbitrary... like which employee you're lucky enough to get or not get to open your app. Or is there a quota of refusals to reach and/or a limited # of acceptances allowed per month or something? 
(thank you for reading this)


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## nyclon (Apr 3, 2011)

It would be helpful if you typed out the exact wording of the refusal but as we have already told you accommodation is a requirement and as you failed to provide any evidence of having accommodation lined up on that count you were rightly refused and have no basis to appeal.

Simply put, your appeal can only be based on information and documents that were available and in existence at the time of application. If you want to appeal you can provide documents that were in existence at the time of application but that you failed to submit. You can't provide new information or new documents. You are getting caught up in semantics. If you want to provide new information then you will have to reapply.


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## lizard0924 (Jan 8, 2015)

TNLady said:


> How do I know whether to trust this forum, or the Immigration Dept? Over $1,000 is at stake here, so I feel very strange about spending/wasting that on a new app based on input from this forum that I don't know what it's based on.... previous appealers who submitted new accommodation info and were denied? If they deny me based on that, that would contradict what they themselves told me to do!


I totally understand your frustration about your visa application situation. This is a very stressful and expensive proposition and the UKVI instructions are less than understandable in many regards. I struggled with them and I am a US-based lawyer. You didn't understand what was needed before submitting your application but you have a much clearer idea now.

That being said...

The bottom line is that you came here asking for free advice and have been given tons and tons and tons of it. All valuable, by the way. Unfortunately, you sent in an incomplete application and were denied your visa. You now want to appeal rather than re-submit, which I get because re-applying will cost another boatload of money. 

However, the folks here who seem to know their stuff have told you that an appeal will likely be unsuccessful because you can't submit "new" evidence (e.g. documents that were created AFTER the date you submitted your previous application). They have also tried explaining that a full appeal may take upwards of a year to be adjudicated.

If you don't believe the people offering you this advice are correct in this analysis and are now are questioning the legitimacy of this forum, why keep asking the same questions?

Instead just go ahead and move forward with your appeal, since that is what it seems you want to do anyway. The worst that will happen is that the denial will be upheld and you will be forced to re-apply anyway at some point in the future. Or maybe you are right and everyone here is wrong and your denial will be overturned if you just send in the missing documents you now know you needed to send in the first place. Or maybe you will choose to relocate to another European Union country, thus negating the whole spousal visa application altogether.

Whatever you decide to do, I wish you the best of luck. This is a tough, tough process to go through. Imagine if you were separated from your spouse like so many of us are throughout the application process.


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## andrie (Jun 19, 2014)

Spot on Lizard


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## TNLady (Sep 8, 2014)

I can type it out, but instead I took a picture of the top half of the page and attached it on Post #1 in this thread. I posted another picture of the lower half of the page, on p. 2, Post #15. I can type it out for you if you can't view the pictures; just let me know. 

What you're writing contradicts what their letter to me says. It says that I can appeal. Not only does It say that I can submit new documents, it says "You are strongly advised to complete all sections of the form and submit all relevant documents..." 

This sounds like, in their own words, strong advice..... As opposed to the mild understated wording on the Accommodation guidance, which says "You MAY wish to submit any of the following documents...." Well, if I had known that it was a real requirement, i.e. if I had been "strongly advised" to submit those items, I would've researched how to acquire them the first time. Several items on that guidance didn't apply to my situation (e.g. Payslips, since husband is self-employed, and a Sponsor in the UK, since he's in the US with me) so I gave it careful consideration and deduced that those Accommodations items didn't apply to me. 

I simply wish to know where it says the words: "You can't provide new information or new documents." If it doesn't say it anywhere, but - - if that is everyone's personal experience - - then that makes UKVI into liars. 

If a lot of people have experienced a refusal of their appeal because they dare to follow the exact "strong advice" of the letter by sending in new documentation, then I very well might follow the recommendation of the people... I'm just wondering if it's in writing anywhere (to contradict my written letter) or - - if it's the result of people going through trial and error? 

I apologize for asking the same question, and I'm not questioning the legitimacy of this forum but nobody has shown me the source of where that info comes from....? Even if it's from personal experiences, that's fine! 
Many thanks, once again. I do appreciate the tons of free advice, and thanks for the well-wishes.


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## salix (Apr 27, 2014)

I think if you believe it's the best route for you both, then you should appeal. I would however suggest that you try to avoid too much attitude in your appeal letter, that would only be counter-productive.

Good luck in the path you choose and let us know how it goes. This forum grows by adding new experiences.


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## JS123 (Jul 23, 2014)

TNLady said:


> I simply wish to know where it says the words: "You can't provide new information or new documents." If it doesn't say it anywhere, but - - if that is everyone's personal experience - - then that makes UKVI into liars.


It does not need to say that anywhere, that is what an appeal is. You believe the officer erred in applying the law/regulations with the documents he was provided with. If you appeal, they will look at your *original application* again and decide if your application should have been successful or not.

That is my understanding of an appeal, having studied and practised law.


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## ALKB (Jan 20, 2012)

TNLady said:


> I can type it out, but instead I took a picture of the top half of the page and attached it on Post #1 in this thread. I posted another picture of the lower half of the page, on p. 2, Post #15. I can type it out for you if you can't view the pictures; just let me know.
> 
> What you're writing contradicts what their letter to me says. It says that I can appeal. Not only does It say that I can submit new documents, it says "You are strongly advised to complete all sections of the form and submit all relevant documents..."
> 
> ...



They distinguish between "additional evidence" = documents that you did not provide but were available to you at the time of application, which will be considered in an appeal

and

"new evidence" = documents that were not available to you at the time of application but are available to you now.

When I read up on appeals for my brother-in-law, this was clearly stated on the UKBA website but since UKBA has been abolished I can't find it on gov.uk.

If you decide to appeal, keep in mind that the ECM has 19 weeks to review the decision before it even gets send on to have a hearing date allocated. If you want to move in six weeks, this will probably not work for you. My brother-in-law's appeal took nearly a year from submitting the appeal to getting his visa (they provided 'additional evidence').

Good luck!


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## nckozy08 (Jan 22, 2014)

I had to reapply as well, and yeah it's expensive  I'm sorry. Would your husband moving over first help at all? in terms of stating where he lives? If he's a citizen there, he should be able to come and go as he pleases. I haven't lived with my husband yet, but he lives with his family and we plan on staying there. I don't recall if I specified how many rooms, etc there are there, but the first time around that part was approved and we were just short in terms of financial requirement. I didn't have any sort of proof for the home layout or anything though...


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## Water Dragon (Jun 28, 2011)

nckozy08 said:


> I had to reapply as well, and yeah it's expensive  I'm sorry. Would your husband moving over first help at all? in terms of stating where he lives? If he's a citizen there, he should be able to come and go as he pleases. I haven't lived with my husband yet, but he lives with his family and we plan on staying there. I don't recall if I specified how many rooms, etc there are there, but the first time around that part was approved and we were just short in terms of financial requirement. I didn't have any sort of proof for the home layout or anything though...


If you don't provide proof of suitable accommodation, you run the risk of being refused again. In a multi-person household, it is usually necessary to provide an inspection to rule out over-crowding. You also need additional proof of who owns the property, and permission for you to live there.


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## TNLady (Sep 8, 2014)

ALKB said:


> If you decide to appeal, keep in mind that the ECM has 19 weeks to review the decision before it even gets send on to have a hearing date allocated. If you want to move in six weeks, this will probably not work for you. My brother-in-law's appeal took nearly a year from submitting the appeal to getting his visa (they provided 'additional evidence').


Re: a hearing date. I would have to pay more for a hearing, compared to appealing "by the papers." I'm sorry, I didn't take a picture of that part of their instructions, but will try to do so. I don't think my case would benefit from a personal appearance, and I even if it would benefit, I don't understand how that would work.... would I have to fly to England to appear before a court? And then fly back to the USA? 

What did your brother-in-law do, and how long ago was that? I wonder if he got a choice to appeal "by the papers" vs "in-court hearing."

We don't necessarily "want to move in 6 weeks" but that's the soonest that we could. We could hang loose for several months, but we are hoping to go to a family wedding in August and move at the same time. (coincidentally, 20 weeks from now) A year is a bit much though. The idea of re-applying is starting to grow on me.


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## ALKB (Jan 20, 2012)

TNLady said:


> Re: a hearing date. I would have to pay more for a hearing, compared to appealing "by the papers." I'm sorry, I didn't take a picture of that part of their instructions, but will try to do so. I don't think my case would benefit from a personal appearance, and I even if it would benefit, I don't understand how that would work.... would I have to fly to England to appear before a court? And then fly back to the USA?
> 
> What did your brother-in-law do, and how long ago was that? I wonder if he got a choice to appeal "by the papers" vs "in-court hearing."
> 
> We don't necessarily "want to move in 6 weeks" but that's the soonest that we could. We could hang loose for several months, but we are hoping to go to a family wedding in August and move at the same time. (coincidentally, 20 weeks from now) A year is a bit much though. The idea of re-applying is starting to grow on me.


He had a hearing about two years ago. As far as I have heard from people, oral appeal is preferable to paper appeal because with the paper appeal you don't get a chance to present you case and explain things.

He did not attend as he did not have a visa for the UK but his wife was living in England and attended as his representative.


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## TNLady (Sep 8, 2014)

Update: 
I decided not to appeal, once I understood what that legal term means (thanks). 

I plan to apply again now, but have a question about part of our income that came from an Individual Retirement Account (IRA) being withdrawn and put into a ROTH IRA (which you have to pay taxes on since it wasn't initially taxed when earned. It goes onto your tax return. The money remains invested but is available at any time to be used with no penalty.) 

I assume it's allowed because they said nothing about it on my previous refusal letter (photographed earlier in this thread and typed into thread link below)... but am still nervous that they could notice it and disallow it on my 2nd application. We're close to the £18.6 and need that IRA Distribution to count toward income (the US considers it income; that's why they tax it). 

I started a new thread here and would appreciate your input. Thank you. http://www.expatforum.com/expats/br...nized-sources-income-i-e-ira-spouse-visa.html


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## Crawford (Jan 23, 2011)

How does the Roth IRA factor into your financial circumstances? 

I note that on the refusal letter they only refer to your husband's self-employment income which, I understand, is the main basis for your application to show he earns 18,600 per annum

You are now providing all the necessary tax returns for this income. 

Are you including the capital amount of the IRA in your application figures and/or distribution from the account?

Not sure what you are asking here.


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## TNLady (Sep 8, 2014)

Hi, you'll have to go to that thread to read the details. My husband received £15,169 from his work and from rental income combined in 2013. He moved £5,977 from his IRA into a ROTH account. (In 2014, he moved £6,428.) When one does that, one must put it onto one's taxes as income (required by law). So it counts as income and you have to pay taxes on it (normally). But he didn't earn it from his freelance work. 

So, for example, those amounts don't show up on our bank statements as being deposited like income usually is. However, it's on our ROTH investment statements showing the amount being deposited (from IRA). If this doesn't help explain, then please see my new thread. I'm asking if the UKVI is going to differentiate the type or source of income? (i.e. from employment) Or as long as it's something on the tax return as income being received, then it counts toward the £18,600? 

The retirement income was obviously previously earned from employment years ago, and deferred from taxes while it grew...until one moves it into a taxable account (ROTH).


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## TNLady (Sep 8, 2014)

I assume most people look at the bottom line on the tax return to see what the income was (i.e. $32,311 in 2013 as they stated on my refusal letter). Most people don't look at all the various line items to see where the income came from (Dividends, Alimony, Unemployment compensation, etc. ) 

But if UKVI is not "most people" then they may think that some categories don't legitimately contribute to income. I need to know if others have come across this.... if their employment income woudn't be enough, but with "IRA Distributions" it would (or other categories, I suppose.... although IRA money at least was previously earned, unlike Alimony & Unemployment.)


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## Crawford (Jan 23, 2011)

You are correct in thinking that UKVI are not most people.

In your first refusal the ECO concentrated on your lack of tax returns for your husband's self employment. They did mention you had rental income.

My understanding is that the _IRA distribution_ amount you write about is being included in your application as income to reach the 18,600 GBP required.

In the following document:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...pendix_FM_Annex_1_7_Financial_Requirement.pdf

In Section 6 it states:

6. Non-employment income
6.1. Category C: Non-employment income – requirements
6.1.1. The following are sources of non-employment income which can be counted
towards the financial requirement:
 Property rental.
 Dividends or other income from investments, stocks and shares, bonds or trust
funds. 

It also states:

_5. The gross amount of any cash income may be counted towards the financial
requirement, where the correct tax has been paid on that income and where all the
relevant evidential requirements in Appendix FM-SE are met. Where a person’s relevant specified evidence relating to permitted sources of non-employment income shows their gross cash income and the tax paid, and *their specified bank statements i*n relation to the permitted non-employment income show all of that post-tax income, they can count the gross amount of the cash income shown on the specified documentation towards the financial requirement (or the net income in relation to dividends). But, where that person’s* specified bank statements *relating to permitted non-employment income only show a proportion of that post-tax income, only the amount shown on the bank statements can be counted towards the financial requirement. 
_
However, you say the dividends were not paid into a bank account but were re-invested in the Roth account. So where does it show that that dividend is a "cash saving and with instant access"? Apart from the tax return where is the proof that such monies were received and deposited?

Appendix FM 1.7 specifically states that applications based on savings/investments must be cash, instant access and goes as far as to mention bank deposit/savings account.

With several applications being turned down due to people having their savings/monies/investments in IRA's, SIPPPs, brokers accounts etc, personally I would have any monies which are included in the 18,600 required in a simple bank deposit account.


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## nyclon (Apr 3, 2011)

From what I can tell you've misinterpreted things. I can't see where cashing out your IRA counts as employment income. It would be something that you previously earned so it couldn't be counted as current employment income. Just because it counts as income for U.S. Tax return purposes doesn't mean that's how UKVI is going to interpret it. Nothing in FM 1.7 indicates that cashed out IRAs count as non-employment income. I think you could use your IRA to help meet the requirement through savings but you would need a minimum of £16,000 and if you are using self-employment you can't combine it with savings.


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## TNLady (Sep 8, 2014)

*PDF: Sources of Income Detail*

I enclosed this Excel spreadsheet with my application, showing the Rental Income (in orange), plus Retirement investment (in purple, for "Continuation" from page 13, section 5 of the form). The average for 2 yrs of total non-employment sources is in green. 

Then I added that to self-employment income in blue (even though we didn't have the 2014 tax return finalized), and it shows enough income. 

Again, I'm wondering if they looked at that at all. 

Crawford, re: what you mentioned: The Roth money has been sitting in a liquid (accessible) investment account and I'm wondering if that would count as a Bank Account (that I could show we've held for longer than 6 months)....?


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## nyclon (Apr 3, 2011)

TNLady said:


> I enclosed this Excel spreadsheet with my application, showing the Rental Income (in orange), plus Retirement investment (in purple, for "Continuation" from page 13, section 5 of the form). The average for 2 yrs of total non-employment sources is in green.
> 
> Then I added that to self-employment income in blue (even though we didn't have the 2014 tax return finalized), and it shows enough income.
> 
> ...


It doesn't matter how long you've held it because you can't combine savings with self-employment income.


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## TNLady (Sep 8, 2014)

TNLady said:


> I enclosed this Excel spreadsheet with my application


 I didn't see where my document got attached: 

Yes, I realize that Cash Savings cannot be combined with Self Employment income. But could this $10K in 2014 (converted from IRA to Roth, i.e. taxable to tax-free investing) be counted as "Dividends or other income from investments, stocks, shares, bonds or trust funds?" I'm looking at p. 43, under Section 6.5 called "Non-employment income - specified evidence." 

I sure wish I could speak to someone verbally. I can call a landline in the UK for no cost if anyone wants to send me their tel number. 

What determines whether this is cash savings or a "dividend or other income from investments?" How does one know to call it cash savings? 

It moved out of a tax-free savings (IRA which is inaccessible without penalty) and into a taxable Roth account. It's on my tax return. It's income. I have a 1099 issued from Charles Schwab (which is legal proof of income which must be claimed on tax return)... I don't think you get that if it's cash savings. I could be wrong...? Thanks.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

I can't see why liquidated IRA can't be reckoned as investment income under Cat C and combined with Cat F or G self-employment income, provided it arose during the accounting year being used for self-employment.


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## nyclon (Apr 3, 2011)

Even though only of a portion of it would actually be income from investment?


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## thatweirdlady (Mar 15, 2015)

An appeal is for when you've submitted all of the required documents and they have misinterpreted or overlooked something. If you had checked all the right boxes and submitted the supporting documents as laid out in their instructions and met all requirements, then you could appeal. The instructions and guidelines for supporting documentation is directly linked on their website. 
Self employment is denied if every bit of documentation isn't provided because they need to be sure that the income is real and from a legal source. 
I know it's a lot of paperwork and it's hard, but it sounds like if you familiarise yourself with the guidelines, you can reapply and easily be granted your visa. It definitely would be more challenging to set up a new life in a new country. 
The appeals process only considers documentation to prove that you submitted the right information to qualify. 
So apply again, with a letter from whoever you can live with and the supporting documents for that accommodation. Submit all required self employed documents and bank statements and you'll be approved. 
It's like a recipe, just follow the steps exactly and it comes out ok  
Do a search on here for Self employed in the U.S. Category F and you'll see what other documents have been submitted for approved ones. 
Good luck, and really this forum is invaluable with loads of good and experienced advice. Everyone's offered an appeal, it doesn't mean it's the right option.


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## nyclon (Apr 3, 2011)

The poster decided against an appeal.


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## thatweirdlady (Mar 15, 2015)

My apologies, it didn't load the replies on my mobile at first and I've now caught up and have no idea how to edit or remove my useless comment.


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## Crawford (Jan 23, 2011)

TNLady said:


> I enclosed this Excel spreadsheet with my application, showing the Rental Income (in orange), plus Retirement investment (in purple, for "Continuation" from page 13, section 5 of the form). The average for 2 yrs of total non-employment sources is in green.
> 
> Then I added that to self-employment income in blue (even though we didn't have the 2014 tax return finalized), and it shows enough income.
> 
> ...


I'm no expert on this, but from then number of folks who have been caught up in what is and what is not a "cash/instant access account" if it was me using monies as part of the 18,600 requirement I would have it in a bank deposit account, with any relevant documentation to show where it came from.


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## TNLady (Sep 8, 2014)

Thanks to you all for the advice. I don't mind at all hearing encouragement from the thatweirdLady; it's OK that it was a bit behind. 

I applied last night, going to Biometrics on Tuesday. I should be able to mail off my package on Wed. June 24th. I hope there's time for them to receive it, review it, respond and send my passport back in time for me to depart on Aug. 18/19. I probably should've asked this question earlier: 

* * Do you think I'm cutting it too fine? * *

That would be 54 days.


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## TziuH (Apr 29, 2015)

I think you should be okay timewise, generally speaking, there's always a slight possibility of an application taking a little longer  Got our visa in 35 days. Projected timeline for the processing hub that handled our application was a minimum of 30 days with 100% processing within 60 days.


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