# Why Not Move to Spain?



## tomwins (Dec 27, 2014)

I retired several five years ago and moved from San Diego, California to Lake Chapala, Mexico. It was an easy move and yet the longer I live there the less I enjoy it. For the past several years, I've been in Spain or France for several months, usually in the Spring and then again in the Fall. This Spring I was suppose to spend a month in Portugal and then three weeks in Spain (driving from Vigo to San Sebastian). 

I am leaning toward moving to Spain for several reasons. Times have changed and COVID-19 is influencing my decisions.

To help me think through this, I'd enjoy hearing you reasons today for being in Spain.

What makes your day special or enjoyable? Has that changed with stay at home orders and mask wearing? 

If you were to face the question of immigrating to Spain again what would be your considerations?

What are the primary negatives you see about your life in Spain?

I deeply appreciate you sharing any stories or circumstances you would like to share.

Tom


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

tomwins said:


> I retired several five years ago and moved from San Diego, California to Lake Chapala, Mexico. It was an easy move and yet the longer I live there the less I enjoy it. For the past several years, I've been in Spain or France for several months, usually in the Spring and then again in the Fall. This Spring I was suppose to spend a month in Portugal and then three weeks in Spain (driving from Vigo to San Sebastian).
> 
> I am leaning toward moving to Spain for several reasons. Times have changed and COVID-19 is influencing my decisions.
> 
> ...


So much depends on what you are looking for. We wanted somewhere that we could afford to live comfortably, with a bit of scenery, some mountains, pleasant people and not too much of a town (more a village) not many immigrants (Brits,) Not too hot nor too cold. Unfortunately with climate change this place which only rarely got up to 28°C in summer now, regularly gets into the upper 30s and it's just a bit hot. when it is day after day.

On the plus side, this province has some lovely natural parks including the largest one in Spain where we spend Christmas and New Year. If we were to do it again, I think I would opt for further north such as Asturias.


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## tomwins (Dec 27, 2014)

baldilocks said:


> So much depends on what you are looking for. We wanted somewhere that we could afford to live comfortably, with a bit of scenery, some mountains, pleasant people and not too much of a town (more a village) not many immigrants (Brits,) Not too hot nor too cold. Unfortunately with climate change this place which only rarely got up to 28°C in summer now, regularly gets into the upper 30s and it's just a bit hot. when it is day after day.
> 
> On the plus side, this province has some lovely natural parks including the largest one in Spain where we spend Christmas and New Year. If we were to do it again, I think I would opt for further north such as Asturias.


Thank you for the reply. Climate took me to Lake Chapala, Mexico but the hot season that used to be mid-April until mid-June over the last three years has become early March until at least July if not later. So that is a consideration.

I've been using Weatherspark that builds from historical data and allows you to compare regions and then I"ve been guess-timating what climate change might be like for a given area. It certainly has turned me off of buying a property again to allow myself more freedom.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Spain is big and small at the same time.

The difference between Cádiz and Bilbao is disproportionate in terms of culture, climate, food etc. considering the distance.

It has non-tropical seasons (real winter and real summer) and many places are within a couple of hours of mountains where you can ski in winter and a beach for summer.

It has forests, lost tiny villages and if you want them, historic cities, modern cities, art, theater, music, nightlife, sport.... Its difficult to be bored here. 

The food, no matter where you are, is great and cheap, eating out is a part of the national culture and is accessible to virtually all.

What sucks? Draconian laws restricting freedom of speach (yes, you can go to jail for singing a song disrespectful to the king), a strangely large residual support to the ex-dictator Franco, the Catholic church and the far right political scene. An apparently random disregard for some laws, rules and social conventions, but rigid adherence to others. But the worst negative is one you won't have to worry about, the employment situation, jobs are hard to come by, badly paid and the working environment is archaic and servile to the extreme.


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## tomwins (Dec 27, 2014)

Overandout said:


> Spain is big and small at the same time.
> 
> The difference between Cádiz and Bilbao is disproportionate in terms of culture, climate, food etc. considering the distance.
> 
> ...


It sounds so much like Mexico, but that should not surprise me, I suppose. A clear consideration is the response to COVID-19. That is where a difference is clear. Mexico is a step-child to the US in the saddest of ways. The main difference between the US and Mexico is that the people in Mexico are caring and loving toward others while the US has become more and more rude and offensive, especially to those who appear different from you.


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

tomwins said:


> I retired several five years ago and moved from San Diego, California to Lake Chapala, Mexico. It was an easy move and yet the longer I live there the less I enjoy it. For the past several years, I've been in Spain or France for several months, usually in the Spring and then again in the Fall. This Spring I was suppose to spend a month in Portugal and then three weeks in Spain (driving from Vigo to San Sebastian).


Sounds like your visits have tended to be during nicer weather. Never a good way to judge a full time move. Stop visiting when it's nice and have a long trip when all the tourist guides tell you to not go. 

I'm guessing you're an American which will likely mean you'll find the move harder in most ways. Legally getting a visa. Harder to ship things. Harder even to adjust to the differences.

The fact the US is just across the border from Mexico means that even if it's different it's not. Dumb things that may not seem important often are. How many threads here from people wanting home town TV or a favorite junk food?


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

tomwins said:


> I retired several five years ago and moved from San Diego, California to Lake Chapala, Mexico. It was an easy move and yet the longer I live there the less I enjoy it. For the past several years, I've been in Spain or France for several months, usually in the Spring and then again in the Fall. This Spring I was suppose to spend a month in Portugal and then three weeks in Spain (driving from Vigo to San Sebastian).
> 
> I am leaning toward moving to Spain for several reasons. Times have changed and COVID-19 is influencing my decisions.
> 
> ...



Primarily, we moved to our region of Spain for a “different” as opposed to “better” way of life, if that makes sense. Money is important, as you are retired etc and looking at spain I presume you fulfil the visa criteria etc.

Day to day life is for us good. I say good as opposed to brilliant because you get the same ups and downs here as you get anywhere in the first world. Obviously stay at home orders affects people but these are exceptional times and whilst we are all on the same seas we are all in different boats with different situations 

My days are made enjoyable by by husband and dogs, the friends we have made. The solitude we can have if we want to as we live off grid and the fact that we have land that we would never have owned if we lived in the U.K.. I love grabbing a coffee for €1 in the village plaza, I love our Sunday trips out during spring and autumn where we have the time to discover new places and the ability to eat menú del día for €9pp. I love the fact that I love in a region of birds and wildlife.

I dislike the bureaucracy, well actually I hate the lack of clarity and the fact that no one ever seems to sing from the same hymn sheet, very frustrating. The heat and the cold extremes ( where I am) can get to be wearing, but you soon learn to adapt to the climate.

We started exploring different regions in Andalusia, mainly inland but nothing appealed that visit was in February 2013 as we deliberately looked during winter. Our next trip was in October 2013 this time we explored Extremadura which by day two we fell in love with and by February 2014 we had moved with a van a few suitcases and two cats, both sadly died here if old age, Mog passes last month.

Would I do it again.... Yes


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

We moved here primarily for economic reasons - wanted to retire early, sold tiny house in England and bought large house for half the price in rural Andalucia, cost of living very low if you adapt to a simple lifestyle, etc. For the first few years I was in love with everything Spanish, but after a while the rose-coloured tint wears off and now I'm a lot more objective. But I still wouldn't want to live anywhere else.

Pluses:
My Spanish neighbours - open-hearted, welcoming and courteous.
Plenty of winter sunshine, daylight until after 6 pm.
Easy access to good quality locally produced food.
Amazing scenery and a wide variety of wildlife.
The outdoor social life on a balmy summer night.

Minuses:
Stifling summer heat, two months when you can't go outside between 10 am and 10 pm.
Maltreatment of animals (through ignorance rather than deliberate cruelty).
The enduring legacy of the fascist dictatorship (I could write a book on this!)
Lack of personal responsibility when it comes to things like throwing litter from car windows.
Machismo!

All a bit random but I hope it helps with your research.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

We bought a house here in 2003 with the intention of retiring to live here eventually, and moved here permanently at the end of 2006 when we decided to retire early.

Pluses:-
Climate (we do go out between 10 am and 10 pm even in July and August and it hasn't killed us yet!), the longer hours of daylight in the winter
People - on the whole the Spanish people are welcoming, friendly and affectionate
Healthcare - I've had a couple of quite serious health issues in the last few years and have been so grateful for the excellent care I've received
Cost of Living - we find local property taxes, utilities, groceries, public transport and eating/drinking out all very reasonably priced and costs don't seem to have increased greatly since we arrived

Minuses 
Higher personal taxes and particularly those on buying and selling property, inheritances from more distant relatives (between spouses and parents/children they are not bad), and pension fund lump sums which would not be taxable in our native country
Litter and dog dirt in the streets - agree with what Alcalaina said about people tossing litter from car windows. We were out on our evening walk yesterday when a passing lorry driver threw a used face mask out of the window - nice! People will throw litter on the ground when there's a bin 2 metres away and too many still don't pick up after their dogs.
Corruption - the endless reports of embezzlement and tax evasion on a massive scale from politicians, sportspeople, celebrities and even the former King are depressing and even amongst the less well off the culture seems to be to applaud those who can cheat the system and get away with it.


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## Phil Squares (Jan 13, 2017)

Just a couple of observations from my perspective. 

Reason we moved to the Alicante area are primariarly economic. I am retired and my wife is 10 years younger than I am and she wanted to continue teaching. We had lived in the UK for 9 years (second time) and she taught in the public education system and got fed up with the workload and irrational job demands. She reached Computer Science at a private school in Alicante and while the salary is much lower the amount of work, stress and demands is corresponding lower. The kids are well behaved especially when compared to the UK school system. Parents actually care about their children's progress. 

We had originally planned on retiring to Thailand, Phuket area but with the arrival of our first grandchild, my wife has put the brakes on that idea permantely. 

To be honest, it's a great place to live, good weather, friendly people, good food, sold beer, lower cost of living and the list goes on and on. 

Drawbacks are few but they do exist. Bureaucracy, or better yet the interpretation variances. You can ask the same question to 10 clerks and you will get 10 different answers with the distance possibility none are correct. Dual pricing system. Yes it does exist!! The former owner of the house we purchased, made it very clear if we wanted to purchase anything go through him. And it worked. The difference in price varies from 5-20% depending on what it is but it does exist. Animal cruelty. A previous poster says it is from ignorance and I disagree. It is from systemic disregard for animals that are old, not "useful" or just no longer needed. Have a hunting dog which isn't a good hunting dog? Solution? Hang him from a tree or use him as a "bait" dog for dog fighting. I can give you countless examples of incidents I have witnessed. It is a cultural issue but it is tolerated. 

Wouild I do it again, in a minute!!


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Some people have mentioned the influence of the Catholic Church and related right-wing legacy. I think the Church is a positive force for good, and is responsible for a great deal of social work and charitable efforts and support for them. The Church's enduring influence can be seen in strong family life, and maintenance of cultural identity and spirituality (fiestas, pilgrimages and Semana Santa). Compared with commercialised and largely secular Christmas in England, in Spain it very much revolves around the family and the Christian teaching that supports it. As a Catholic, Spain is a wonderful country to live and bring up children in.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

I moved for family reasons. I agree with poster who says in the beginning everything seems wonderful but after a while that wears off. For the first few years you talk endlessly about the weather but by your 3rd summer you avoid the beaches ( sand!!! everywhere). The months of July/ August make you very lethargic.
Big difference if you work or retired. I hate the work conditions here and find the expected relationship between employer/ employee almost Dickensian. On a plus side those who work tend to work have more access to spanish life and often learn the language to a sufficient degree. Spanish are very friendly and sociable and I feel very safe in most places. Despite a kind of overt racism towards various groups the Spanish are extremely tolerant in real life. They dont seem nearly as threatened by drunks, drug addicts etc as in the UK. Education is not nearly progressive enough for the 21st century and is too hampered by Spain's historical past and the Catholic Church. Bureaucracy can be a pain here as others have said but its alot better than it was now that many functionaries are younger. Corruption is another negative as it seeps down through the cracks and makes it hard for the country to embrace the changes that northern european countries enjoy. Finally tax can be very punitive if you have organised much of your finances and savings in other countries. Inheritances in spain have none of the generous breaks that uk has which can be a shock to Brits when they find that half their expected inheritance is taxed whilst in uk it would possibly be tax free. All in all I wouldn't say Spain is either better or worse than uk although I will return to uk once my children have finished their school education. Despite the UKs flaws it is my country where my identity, language ,culture, family and friends live. Sure I might have to wear a jacket and brave the wind and rain but life as you grow older needs to be more than a suntan and a glass of vino calapso!!


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Joppa said:


> Some people have mentioned the influence of the Catholic Church and related right-wing tendency. I think the Church is a positive force for good, and is responsible for a great deal of social work and charitable efforts and support for them. The Church's enduring influence can be seen in strong family life, and maintenance of cultural identity and spirituality (fiestas, pilgrimages and Semana Santa). Compared with commercialised and largely secular Christmas in England, in Spain it very much revolves around the family and the Christian teaching that supports it. As a Catholic, Spain is a wonderful country to live and bring up children in.


Whilst some may see the church as a good thing others might not. Its role in the Franco years was tantamount to being collaborative. It still remains a terrible brake on spain in terms of adapting to modern social mores. Sure it might seem to provide strong families but at the expense of a large amount of domestic abuse. Spanish families are often I think over romanticized. Many Spanish men feel affairs are acceptable and many Spanish still believe in the patriarchal structuring of families. So I guess its swings and roundabouts


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

kaipa said:


> Whilst some may see the church as a good thing others might not. Its role in the Franco years was tantamount to being collaborative.


After 7,000 priests, bishops, monks and nuns were executed in the Civil War.


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## tomwins (Dec 27, 2014)

Thank you everyone for such interesting comments. I'll have to digest some of them more. Initially, I am seeing a strong similarity to Mexico where I've lived for many years. Yet it is going to be more challenging to go from Mexico to Spain than it was from California to Mexico. Mexico is a step-child to the US in so many ways.

While I'd considered moving to Spain before, the response to COVID-19 has pushed me further toward that decision. Mexico and the US have failed miserably and while it has not been easy in Spain and I'm sure it could have been handled better, the leadership and response was far better there than in either the US and Mexico.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

I think you have some great replies here.


I'm not sure my story is of much help to you because I came here at a very different age and stage of life. I came here in my early 20's after living in Colombia for 2 years. My reasons for not being in the UK were


 Few job chances. I am a qualilfied primary school teacher and I applied for 100's of jobs. but Thatcher was ruling and cutting education.
 I was given the opportunity to travel by qualifying as a TEFL teacher after uni.
 I had no strong ties apart from immediate family in the UK and in my 20's I was happy to leave them and take the opportunities I had. I had no real "adult life" to leave behind. No husband/ partner, no house, no money in fact, no car... There was nothing to stay for and everything to leave for.
 Leaving was nothing to do with the weather or climate, and a little political let's say because I didn't feel Maggie was going to let me teach.
I stayed in Spain because I met Mr. Pesky Wesky. It literally never occurred to me, or him I suppose, that we might live in the UK. For many, many years I hated going back to the UK. My life in Spain was/ is so much better and going back I could see that. The UK was grey, shabby, people grim and unhappy. I've "made my peace" with the country in recent years and now it doesn't seem so gloomy, but for all that it has I prefer Spain and do not plan on living there again although as commented on another thread recently, never say never.

Pros 


 Light, colour. More hours of daylight = more opportunities to do things
 Knowing and giving importance to socialising, eating, getting together. I wouldn't say a more relaxed way of life - the typical Spanish office worker works extremely long hours - but giving importance to the Good Life.
 The geography of the country. It's a beautiful country with mountains, forests and beaches, which is not to say other countries don't have that, but this is where I know and it has its importance for me.
 Affordable housing.
 Health care is good.
 The developments the country has made since I've been here. Nursery education, health care, roads, metro system in Madrid and Bilbao.
Sometimes the passion. The marches against ETA after the shooting of Miguel Angel Blanco, the feeling in the country of against the Irak war - 98% against, the outpourings of grief after the Madrid bombings... Also the football, but that gets on my nerves after days on end!
 Cons


 Corrupt politics. Ineffective politics.
 Heat. It's too hot for me in the Comunidad de Madrid in summer. The spring, if we have one (sometimes we go directly from winter to summer) is lovely. I can't bear the south in the summer, and neither can OH
 Racism. My own theory is that there isn't much of a racism problem in Spain because there aren't too many "different coloured" immigrants. There are many white skinned Europeans and many South Americans, but if you get a lot of Magebíes or black people, and recently in my town at least, Chinese, out come the comments. The rise of Vox and similar is worrying too.
 Domestic violence. It's a big problem here. Don't know if more than in other countries or not.
 Bureaucracy. Spain loves its paperwork
 Civil servant system. This is because it affects my personal life a great deal as OH is a state school teacher. It is the most ridiculous system ever invented. It's outdated, inefficient, expensive, disorganised, unfair, unjust... Enough said
 Catholic church pervades everything. Why do we have so many public holidays in Spain (14 days against 8 in the UK)? Saint's days. Most places that you can visit on holiday are churches, convents, chapels etc etc. In my case maybe I feel it more because of my Spanish family. Anytime there's anything to celebrate Off to Mass we go! 80th birthday? Mass. 50th wedding anniversary? Mass. Commemoration of what would have been somebody's 100th birthday? Somebody died last week, last month, last year? Mass... And the corruption of the Catholic church is sickening. Maybe it's the same in all churches, I don't know.
 Low salaries.
Quite long... I don't know if anyone will bother to plough through this, but I enjoyed writing it


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I think you have some great replies here.
> 
> 
> I'm not sure my story is of much help to you because I came here at a very different age and stage of life. I came here in my early 20's after living in Colombia for 2 years. My reasons for not being in the UK were
> ...


Having also spent time in Colombia (SWMBO is Colombian) I enjoyed reading it. If it weren't for the corruption and the violence and the drugs, I would have been quite content to live in Colombia but SWMBO wouldn't hear of retiring there. She had seen too much of the violence, being a TV news reporter and reader. It had got to the point that unless there were more than a dozen bodies, the TV crews didn't even bother to attend.


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

Just to take away one of the negatives in previous posters views of coming to live in Spain.

Goto Asturias - nice and cool here, even in July and August and still enjoy the longer daylight hours.
In fact I've never considered the need or use for air conditioning at home in all the years I've been
here but still get some great summers.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

I find it interesting that the OP draws a lot of parallels with Mexico, yet I know several Mexicans here who say that the only thing in common is the language!

In fact, every time I talk to Mexican immigrants in Spain I can't help thinking that it must be similar to when an American (USA) moves to the UK.


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

People are more likely to notice the little things that bother them than the things that don't. 

Plus it's what more than two hundred years since Mexican independence? Even if the majority of the population than was hispanic you'd expect some drift.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

2 old threads on a similar topic
https://www.expatforum.com/expats/la-tasca/815930-i-hate-spain-i-hate-living-spain-im-leaving.html
https://www.expatforum.com/expats/s...living-spain/971074-novelty-living-spain.html


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## tomwins (Dec 27, 2014)

These comments are stirring my thought processes, thank you everyone. Regarding the comment about Colombia, I briefly looked at that. The only South American country I am considering is Uruguay. But right now, Spain is far ahead due to the easy of travel throughout Europe, richer cultural scene, easy of travel to and from New York (personal needs to be there periodically).

Yesterday USNews came out with an updated list of "Best Countries to Live In". Last year Spain was in #5 spot. This year Spain is #4 behind New Zealand, Australia, Switzerland. In spots 5-10 are Luxembourg, Canada, Portugal, Netherlands, Italy, and Denmark.

Here is the brief:
No. 4: Spain

Spain, which moved up one position this year, is seen as highly connected to the rest of the world and one of the most culturally accessible countries. Expatriates may find the country an easier transition for retirement than other nations.
The financial downturn that hit Spain a decade ago knocked real estate prices 40% below their 2007 high point, and the country on Europe’s Iberian Peninsula has a “golden visa” program that makes residency permits easier to obtain for those who spend at least 500,000 euros – about $600,000 – on property in Spain.

And the full profile of Spain is at: https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/spain.

Interestingly, Spain has ranked #1 for solo travel.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

tomwins said:


> These comments are stirring my thought processes, thank you everyone. Regarding the comment about Colombia, I briefly looked at that. The only South American country I am considering is Uruguay. But right now, Spain is far ahead due to the easy of travel throughout Europe, richer cultural scene, easy of travel to and from New York (personal needs to be there periodically).
> 
> Yesterday USNews came out with an updated list of "Best Countries to Live In". Last year Spain was in #5 spot. This year Spain is #4 behind New Zealand, Australia, Switzerland. In spots 5-10 are Luxembourg, Canada, Portugal, Netherlands, Italy, and Denmark.
> 
> ...


So much, of course, depends on one's interests and one's ability to adapt to the language. If one is only interested in the beach, then many countries will do but if one is interested in culture, nature, archaeology, history, etc. then Spain and the Spanish culture ticks so many boxes not to mention opening the door to the Latin American countries and their cultures.


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## tomwins (Dec 27, 2014)

Pesky Wesky said:


> 2 old threads on a similar topic
> https://www.expatforum.com/expats/la-tasca/815930-i-hate-spain-i-hate-living-spain-im-leaving.html
> https://www.expatforum.com/expats/s...living-spain/971074-novelty-living-spain.html


Thanks for the old threads. The first few pages of each were interesting until they began to drag into UK-centric matters. In my area of Mexico, there are some US and Canadians around with a few Europeans. So that is a major difference of living in Spain as opposed to Mexico.

The frustration with bureaucracy that was frequently mentioned is something that I know well.

I'll go ahead and share my desires now that some folks have shared your stories.

A main desire is to stay in Europe year-round. I love Spain and have found a few areas I would like to investigate more in the next year or two. I will NOT be buying a property soon, if ever.

Another draw is the response to COVID-19. Mexico has done terribly and I would rather be in another country when the next calamity hits.

My mother is 92 as of Sunday. She doesn't have much longer to live and I will not be in the US much once she passes. Within the past few years, there have been few reasons for me to come to the US except to visit her.

Spain's rich opportunity for hiking, music, art, and great food are additional draws.


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

tomwins said:


> Another draw is the response to COVID-19. Mexico has done terribly and I would rather be in another country when the next calamity hits.





> Cases and mortality by country
> COUNTRY CONFIRMED DEATHS CASE-FATALITY DEATHS/100K POP.
> San Marino	699	42	6.0%	124.32
> Belgium	64,627	9,808	15.2%	85.87
> ...



https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality


Maybe the media has been feeding you a different line but those are the numbers. Belgium can claim they've been aggressive in labeling everything covid related but most of the other countries on that list haven't


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

NickZ said:


> https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality
> 
> 
> Maybe the media has been feeding you a different line but those are the numbers. Belgium can claim they've been aggressive in labeling everything covid related but most of the other countries on that list haven't


 Carry on down and include Mexico, and then compare with Spain


Spain 267,551 28,426 10.6% 60.84
Mexico362,274 41,190 11.4% 32.64


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

But isn't the OPs point that Spain tried to tackle the issue in a strict and structured way, following all the advice?

We all know that Spain suffered disproportionately despite this but it is about perception. To make a further comparison, we would be statistically safer living in Sweden, where the authorities openly stated that they did not see Covid as a problem and did very little about it, than in Spain, but I would still rather be here.

It's about perception, effort, intent more than the absolute result.


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

Overandout said:


> But isn't the OPs point that Spain tried to tackle the issue in a strict and structured way, following all the advice?
> .



Is it? I thought his point was that Mexico and the US have done horrible while other countries have done great. 

Europe has not done well. The situation currently in Eastern Europe isn't pretty . Most of those people can freely travel around Europe. 

Before somebody claims the US got hit later they didn't. The cases in Seattle are some of the first outside of China.


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## tomwins (Dec 27, 2014)

Overandout said:


> But isn't the OPs point that Spain tried to tackle the issue in a strict and structured way, following all the advice?
> 
> We all know that Spain suffered disproportionately despite this but it is about perception. To make a further comparison, we would be statistically safer living in Sweden, where the authorities openly stated that they did not see Covid as a problem and did very little about it, than in Spain, but I would still rather be here.
> 
> It's about perception, effort, intent more than the absolute result.



Thank you Overandout, you summed my point up well. I don't think you can use stats to know much and certainly not to compare countries. I have no faith in the numbers given out by Mexico. The facts I am observing are the things said and done by LEADERS and the quality of their leadership. I don't think any country has escaped the harm done by COVID-19 but have a decent medical care infrastructure accessible by all residents is a big start in having a better response. In both the US and Mexico, leaders were confusing and irrational in their messages and continue to be so. At first I reacted to your use of the word "perception" but leadership is about perception. My brother-in-law was at my mother's house yesterday saying he felt "this virus thing is a hoax put on to make Trump lose the election. Just wait, it will all disappear in November." These are the people voting in the US election. Even when evidence is presented that the leadership is untrustworthy, they make up stories to hold on to the horse they picked.

With that said, this is not the only reason I am looking at Spain but makes me feel stronger about it.


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## alan-in-mexicali (Apr 26, 2018)

I suggest you MIGHT consider checking Costa Rica...try this site for really good info... [email protected]
I LIVE in Mexico... and Costa Rico makes more sense than Spain for an American....I HAD planed to move to Spain, but the stress and strain of different answers each time I asked a question made me decide on NOT moving to Spain....
GOOD LUCK where ever you end up!


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

alan-in-mexicali said:


> ....I HAD planed to move to Spain, but the stress and strain of different answers each time I asked a question made me decide on NOT moving to Spain....


Wow, I know that there are lots of complaints about this on here, but deciding where to live or not based on that seems a bit extreme.
Remember that it can be an advantage too; don't like the answer to your official question? No problem, go back tomorrow and ask again, see if you like tomorrow's answer better! Repeat ad infinitum... 

Sounds like a joke, but there are instances where that actually works...


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Overandout said:


> Wow, I know that there are lots of complaints about this on here, but deciding where to live or not based on that seems a bit extreme.
> Remember that it can be an advantage too; don't like the answer to your official question? No problem, go back tomorrow and ask again, see if you like tomorrow's answer better! Repeat ad infinitum...
> 
> Sounds like a joke, but there are instances where that actually works...


I think that depends on your personality. If you are the sort of person who likes their rules and regulations to be unambiguous, and gets stressed out when things aren't clearly defined, Spain probably isn't for you.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Alcalaina said:


> I think that depends on your personality. If you are the sort of person who likes their rules and regulations to be unambiguous, and gets stressed out when things aren't clearly defined, Spain probably isn't for you.


True, but I was like that before. 

Spain is a great therapy for OCD, you either get cured or get out!

What does still "annoy" me though is the different logic applied to responsibility, I have an analogy on this which I will share to see if people agree with me:

You are in a communal kitchen, you pick up a glass jar of coffee from the shelf by the lid and, because the lid had not been screwed on properly by the last person to use it, the coffee jar falls and smashes.

In Spain, the blame is yours, you have to clean up and buy more coffee because you were the last one to touch the jar, the preceding factors are not relevant.

In the UK however (the example I have to use for comparison) there is an enquiry as to who was last to use the coffee, a kind of root cause analysis which would probably result in some corrective action being taken against the person who didn't screw the lid on.

This to me is an illustrative example of how Spanish culture is different from Northern European, but I'm not sure about the American perspective.. maybe they would sue the coffee manufacturer for not writing "DO NOT PICK UP BY THE LID" on the jar!


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## CltFlyboy (Feb 11, 2020)

Overandout said:


> This to me is an illustrative example of how Spanish culture is different from Northern European, but I'm not sure about the American perspective.. maybe they would sue the coffee manufacturer for not writing "DO NOT PICK UP BY THE LID" on the jar!


Over here in the US that kind of accident would result in everyone "lawyering up". The person who dropped the jar would claim negligence on the owner of the establishment and the previous person to use the jar. The previous person to use the jar would probably state that the lid was defective and that they secured it, and the establishment should have implemented better storage ware. The establishment would claim that they have a contract specifically negating any liability due to incompetent use of jars. Then the whole thing would go to court - small claims to start, until the person who dropped it also claimed they were injured by flying glass. Then it would go to a full court to be heard, potentially by a jury.

Who wins in this situation? The lawyers, of course! Welcome to the American system of law


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## tomwins (Dec 27, 2014)

alan-in-mexicali said:


> I suggest you MIGHT consider checking Costa Rica...try this site for really good info... [email protected]
> I LIVE in Mexico... and Costa Rico makes more sense than Spain for an American....I HAD planed to move to Spain, but the stress and strain of different answers each time I asked a question made me decide on NOT moving to Spain....
> GOOD LUCK where ever you end up!


Thank you for the suggestion. It is interesting that you should mention Costa Rica as it was the first place I began looking at some twelve years ago. I also looked at Panama. It was on my fifth or sixth visit in Costa Rica that I decided against it for a few reasons. It is a small country and much of it does not have strong infrastructure such as sewer or running water. I'm sure I could have found a spot I enjoyed but that would have limited my desire to travel. This is one of the reasons I am considering Spain. For the last decade I've been in Europe at least a month and often twice a year for a few months. That is a strong draw to making my home base in Spain. 

I am still considering Uruguay. It is a beautiful country with great people. But I'd still want to travel in Europe for long periods of time. 

My 92 year old mother is the only reason I go to the US. Once she dies, I will have no interest or need to return.


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## Nomoss (Nov 25, 2016)

baldilocks said:


> .................. this province has some lovely *natural* parks including the largest one in Spain where we spend Christmas and New Year. If we were to do it again, I think I would opt for further north such as Asturias.



I wonder each time you mention that.

Do you refer to the Parque *Nacional* de Sierra Nevada, with 85.883 ha, which is said to be the largest, or the Parque *Natural* de las Sierras de Cazorla, Segura y Las Villas, which is almost 2 1/2 times the size, with 214.300 ha?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Nomoss said:


> I wonder each time you mention that.
> 
> Do you refer to the Parque *Nacional* de Sierra Nevada, with 85.883 ha, which is said to be the largest, or the Parque *Natural* de las Sierras de Cazorla, Segura y Las Villas, which is almost 2 1/2 times the size, with 214.300 ha?


Sierra de Nevada is in Granada Province. Cazorla, etc. is in Jaén Province as are the Parques Naturales de Despeñaperros, P.N. de la Sierra de Andújar, PN de la Sierra Mágina, parts of PN Sierra de Cardeña y Montoro and many lesser natural parks. We have bears, eagles, vultures, otters, lynx and many other wild animals.

National Parks and Natural Parks are different. National parks are state owned, whereas the natural parks are just normal areas that have been declared areas of Natural beauty with wildlife and striking geology and the land is owned by many people/private.


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## Nomoss (Nov 25, 2016)

baldilocks said:


> ............... National Parks and Natural Parks are different. National parks are state owned, whereas the natural parks are just normal areas that have been declared areas of Natural beauty with wildlife and striking geology and the land is owned by many people/private.


Thank you for the explanation, I didn't realise the difference.

We have been going to Las Sierras de Cazorla etc. since 1970, when we first visited the Parador just to look at it. We had a snack and a drink in the bar, and continued driving north. We stayed there once, but were a bit disappointed by the food. We now go to the more northerly part quite regularly - or did until this mess put a stop to our visits to Spain.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Nomoss said:


> Thank you for the explanation, I didn't realise the difference.
> 
> We have been going to Las Sierras de Cazorla etc. since 1970, when we first visited the Parador just to look at it. We had a snack and a drink in the bar, and continued driving north. We stayed there once, but were a bit disappointed by the food. We now go to the more northerly part quite regularly - or did until this mess put a stop to our visits to Spain.


We always go to Arroyo Frío for Christmas and New Year. We have a semi-standing order for a particular apartment which has disabled facilities for the m-i-l.


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## Nomoss (Nov 25, 2016)

baldilocks said:


> We always go to Arroyo Frío for Christmas and New Year. We have a semi-standing order for a particular apartment which has disabled facilities for the m-i-l.


In 1970, after visiting the Cazorla Parador we drove the length of the Guadalquivir valley northwards, and somehow on to Albacete and Alicante to get the ferry to Mallorca. We must have passed through Arroyo Frio, but there was very little on the route then, although the roads were surfaced, if not very well, along the valley. I still have the 1968 Michelin map we used.



The road from Baza to Pozo Alcon was pretty poor, and, although surfaced, very tortuous up to the Cazorla road, but not a problem as I don't remember any traffic, and it was the end of June, so the weather was good and the days long.

From about 1986 we stayed either in the hotel in Yeste or the quite remote hostal rural at Rio Madera, which we discovered one night when lost on the tracks around the P Natural, preparing to spend the night in our little Terra van.

We usually only spent a couple of days at the above, as part of a trip south, as we enjoy driving to new places, but last September we were away a bit longer, stayed a week in a delightful apartment in Segura de la Sierra and explored the nearby area. We started to drive down the Guadalquivir valley after going to Hornos, which was very busy and touristy, had a picnic, and turned back after a few kms. We did see quite a few deer however.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Nomoss said:


> In 1970, after visiting the Cazorla Parador we drove the length of the Guadalquivir valley northwards, and somehow on to Albacete and Alicante to get the ferry to Mallorca. We must have passed through Arroyo Frio, but there was very little on the route then, although the roads were surfaced, if not very well, along the valley. I still have the 1968 Michelin map we used.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Segura de la Sierra is a delightful little place and the castle often has old crafts on display. Another interesting place (if out of the way) is the https://cazorla.es/turismo/madera-vadillo-castril/ where they used to turn pine trees into railway sleepers amongst other things then send them floating down the R. Guadalquivir to Jodar where they were loaded onto trains to go to where they were needed.


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## Nomoss (Nov 25, 2016)

baldilocks said:


> Segura de la Sierra is a delightful little place and the castle often has old crafts on display. Another interesting place (if out of the way) is the https://cazorla.es/turismo/madera-vadillo-castril/ where they used to turn pine trees into railway sleepers amongst other things then send them floating down the R. Guadalquivir to Jodar where they were loaded onto trains to go to where they were needed.


Castril *is* a bit remote for us coming from the North.

There was once a big movement of timber by the rios Madera and Segura, which was halted by the building of dams. This is re-enacted occasionally around the village of La Graya, where there is still the remains of a precarious footbridge over the Segura.

https://www.diarioinformacion.com/vega-baja/2010/09/13/maderada-llegaba-orihuela/1043793.html


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Nomoss said:


> Castril *is* a bit remote for us coming from the North.
> 
> There was once a big movement of timber by the rios Madera and Segura, which was halted by the building of dams. This is re-enacted occasionally around the village of La Graya, where there is still the remains of a precarious footbridge over the Segura.
> 
> https://www.diarioinformacion.com/vega-baja/2010/09/13/maderada-llegaba-orihuela/1043793.html


You go past Vadillo Castril to get to the Parador
https://www.google.com/maps/contrib...27591,-2.9430897,14.08z/data=!4m3!8m2!3m1!1e1


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## Nomoss (Nov 25, 2016)

baldilocks said:


> You go past Vadillo Castril to get to the Parador
> https://www.google.com/maps/contrib...27591,-2.9430897,14.08z/data=!4m3!8m2!3m1!1e1


Thanks. I was looking at Castril in Granada province.


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