# Spanish grammar websites



## AllHeart

I'm finally getting around to studying grammar in Spanish. Practically every site I go to has their own version of explaining the tenses, and there are contradictions between websites, and there are none that I can find that explain it really well. 

So could someone please recommend a site that has the tenses explained correctly and explained well? Also a site with examples and drills would be very much appreciated. I hope that's not too much to ask. :fingerscrossed:


----------



## Horlics

Not all websites, but...

My go-to reference for grammar is: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Spanish-Gra...d=1424860918&sr=8-10&keywords=spanish+grammar

I found this book ( http://www.amazon.com/Practice-Make...424860660&sr=8-2&keywords=spanish+verb+tenses) and the others in the series (see Customers Also Bought links) very useful. It's drill after drill after drill and they were a huge help to me. But, they're books.

The closest most useful site to this drill, drill, drill approach that I have found is Duolingo.com


----------



## AllHeart

Horlics said:


> Not all websites, but...
> 
> My go-to reference for grammar is: Spanish Grammar: Amazon.co.uk: John Butt: 9780198603436: Books
> 
> I found this book ( http://www.amazon.com/Practice-Make...424860660&sr=8-2&keywords=spanish+verb+tenses) and the others in the series (see Customers Also Bought links) very useful. It's drill after drill after drill and they were a huge help to me. But, they're books.
> 
> The closest most useful site to this drill, drill, drill approach that I have found is Duolingo.com


Thanks, Horlics. Yes, I'd rather a website than a book. So I signed up for Duolingo and passed the first stage of basics 1, onto the second stage now. Do you remember how long it takes before I can get to the verbs? There's basics 1, basics 2, then phrases. I don't see verbs anywhere near yet.


----------



## Chopera

AllHeart said:


> I'm finally getting around to studying grammar in Spanish. Practically every site I go to has their own version of explaining the tenses, and there are contradictions between websites, and there are none that I can find that explain it really well.
> 
> So could someone please recommend a site that has the tenses explained correctly and explained well? Also a site with examples and drills would be very much appreciated. I hope that's not too much to ask. :fingerscrossed:


We did try to start up a grammar/language thread on this site a while back, but it didn't take off.

In my experience forums are an excellent way of learning grammar because they help you engage with the subject rather than passively reading from a screen. However the language forum I used to use closed down a few years ago and I haven't got round to finding another one yet.

Maybe you should ask questions here and we can see how we get on?


----------



## AllHeart

Chopera said:


> We did try to start up a grammar/language thread on this site a while back, but it didn't take off.
> 
> In my experience forums are an excellent way of learning grammar because they help you engage with the subject rather than passively reading from a screen. However the language forum I used to use closed down a few years ago and I haven't got round to finding another one yet.
> 
> Maybe you should ask questions here and we can see how we get on?


Thanks for that suggestion, Chopera.

To start with, I remember back in the 80s when I studied grammar there are eight verb tenses, but I can't remember what they are, and I'm not sure there are eight. A lot of the sites say there are much less than that. So here's a website that I found that shows eight tenses: 
- Present
- Preterite
- Imperfect
- Subjunctive present
- Commands
- Future tense
- Conditional 
- Perfect

Here's the website: Spanish Verb Conjugation Drills

So that's my first question: How many verb tenses are there in Spanish? 

My second question is: Are the tenses I've listed the correct ones?


----------



## Chopera

It's debatable whether the subjunctive is a tense or a "sense" since it's purpose is to communicate certainty/doubt rather than when the action occurs, although in Spanish it does conjugate like the other tenses so it is usually taught as such.

If you want to treat the subjunctive as a tense then you also need things like pluperfect subjunctive, imperfect subjunctive, etc (no need for future subjunctive though)

Also you've left off the pluperfect tense.

You should be aware that the subjunctive and imperfect tense in Spanish doesn't directly map to an equivalent in English. So as well as knowing the conjugations, you need to work out when to use them - and that takes practice.

(sorry I can't give you a straight answer)


----------



## AllHeart

Chopera said:


> It's debatable whether the subjunctive is a tense or a "sense" since it's purpose is to communicate certainty/doubt rather than when the action occurs, although in Spanish it does conjugate like the other tenses so it is usually taught as such.
> 
> If you want to treat the subjunctive as a tense then you also need things like pluperfect subjunctive, imperfect subjunctive, etc (no need for future subjunctive though)
> 
> Also you've left off the pluperfect tense.
> 
> You should be aware that the subjunctive and imperfect tense in Spanish doesn't directly map to an equivalent in English. So as well as knowing the conjugations, you need to work out when to use them - and that takes practice.
> 
> (sorry I can't give you a straight answer)


To be honest, I'm totally lost with what you're saying, other than to say this site is wrong. But perhaps now you can see how getting an answer to the basic questions - how many verb tenses are there and what are they - is the first stumbling block. Yet they're the most important questions for me to get started. Something I've learned in learning, is the danger of learning wrong. It's very difficult to unlearn something that was learned wrong.


----------



## kalohi

AllHeart said:


> Thanks for that suggestion, Chopera.
> 
> To start with, I remember back in the 80s when I studied grammar there are eight verb tenses, but I can't remember what they are, and I'm not sure there are eight. A lot of the sites say there are much less than that. So here's a website that I found that shows eight tenses:
> - Present
> - Preterite
> - Imperfect
> - Subjunctive present
> - Commands
> - Future tense
> - Conditional
> - Perfect
> 
> Here's the website: Spanish Verb Conjugation Drills
> 
> So that's my first question: How many verb tenses are there in Spanish?
> 
> My second question is: Are the tenses I've listed the correct ones?


I would say that that list is a start. But there are a few verb tenses that aren't included. For instance they don't mention using 'ir a' + verb to talk about the future. (eg Voy a comer = I'm going to eat.) There's also the present continuous tense (eg Estoy comiendo = I'm eating.) Those are two rather basic tenses that beginners should learn. On a more advanced level there's the past subjunctive, and compound tenses such as the future perfect continuous, the conditional perfect, and the conditional perfect continuous.  But step by step...get through the basic ones first!

The website you linked to isn't wrong. But grammar can get rather complicated so to make things understandable certain aspects might get left out or skimmed over at first. You don't need to get it all 100% from the start. Think of it as adding blocks to a building. You can't expect to have the entire building built in a day. 

I wish I could help you with websites, but my forte now is teaching English. You might do better looking for apps. 

Good luck!


----------



## kalohi

Chopera said:


> It's debatable whether the subjunctive is a tense or a "sense" since it's purpose is to communicate certainty/doubt rather than when the action occurs, although in Spanish it does conjugate like the other tenses so it is usually taught as such.
> 
> If you want to treat the subjunctive as a tense then you also need things like pluperfect subjunctive, imperfect subjunctive, etc (no need for future subjunctive though)
> 
> Also you've left off the pluperfect tense.
> 
> You should be aware that the subjunctive and imperfect tense in Spanish doesn't directly map to an equivalent in English. So as well as knowing the conjugations, you need to work out when to use them - and that takes practice.
> 
> (sorry I can't give you a straight answer)


I think it goes without saying that 50% of the battle is learning when to use each verb tense. Because no, Spanish verb tenses and English verb tenses in so many cases are not used in the same way. And you're so right - practice, practice, practice!


----------



## AllHeart

kalohi said:


> I would say that that list is a start. But there are a few verb tenses that aren't included. For instance they don't mention using 'ir a' + verb to talk about the future. (eg Voy a comer = I'm going to eat.) There's also the present continuous tense (eg Estoy comiendo = I'm eating.) Those are two rather basic tenses that beginners should learn. On a more advanced level there's the past subjunctive, and compound tenses such as the future perfect continuous, the conditional perfect, and the conditional perfect continuous.  But step by step...get through the basic ones first!
> 
> The website you linked to isn't wrong. But grammar can get rather complicated so to make things understandable certain aspects might get left out or skimmed over at first. You don't need to get it all 100% from the start. Think of it as adding blocks to a building. You can't expect to have the entire building built in a day.
> 
> I wish I could help you with websites, but my forte now is teaching English. You might do better looking for apps.
> 
> Good luck!


Oh, I understand what you and Chopera are saying now - that there are actually more than eight tenses. Yikes!  From what you're saying here, that makes sense as to why I only learned eight - it was a first-year university course that I took. So they probably only gave us the basics. That also makes sense as to why other sites give much less than eight tenses - it's about getting started with the building blocks.

It's heartening to hear that this site is a good start. So that is what I'll do - start with this site, knowing there is a bottomless pit to learning Spanish...just as I'm still learning English.


----------



## Chopera

AllHeart said:


> Oh, I understand what you and Chopera are saying now - that there are actually more than eight tenses. Yikes!  From what you're saying here, that makes sense as to why I only learned eight - it was a first-year university course that I took. So they probably only gave us the basics. That also makes sense as to why other sites give much less than eight tenses - it's about getting started with the building blocks.
> 
> It's heartening to hear that this site is a good start. So that is what I'll do - start with this site, knowing there is a bottomless pit to learning Spanish...just as I'm still learning English.


Don't worry. If you look at all the conjugations for a verb in Spanish there are over 100 :

E.g. here they are for the verb "ir" - "to go":

Conjugación de ir - WordReference.com

(this page gives you all the tenses as well)

But don't worry - most follow rules that allow you to deduce what you need to say without having to memorise the whole lot.


----------



## AllHeart

Chopera said:


> Don't worry. If you look at all the conjugations for a verb in Spanish there are over 100 :
> 
> E.g. here they are for the verb "ir" - "to go":
> 
> Conjugación de ir - WordReference.com
> 
> (this page gives you all the tenses as well)
> 
> But don't worry - most follow rules that allow you to deduce what you need to say without having to memorise the whole lot.


Oh my goodness gracious me!!!!


----------



## baldilocks

Stop panicking. The majority, in fact all, of what you need to say can be encompassed in those "eight". All you want to do is converse and maybe write things in Spanish, you don't want to write a dissertation on the finer points of Spanish grammar.

You already have the conjugations of most of what you need and how to get from the key verbs to many of the variants in the stuff I sent you months and months ago.


----------



## baldilocks

Horlics;6530209
I found this book ( [url said:


> http://www.amazon.com/Practice-Makes-Perfect-Spanish-Tenses/dp/0844273341/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1424860660&sr=8-2&keywords=spanish+verb+tenses[/url]) and the others in the series (see Customers Also Bought links) very useful. It's drill after drill after drill and they were a huge help to me. But, they're books.


Take care with the "Practice makes perfect" series of books - they are published by McGraw Hill and are American. Not only is the English used Americanised so is much of the Spanish. Now this is fine if you are somebody in Milwaukee wanting to learn how to speak to a Mexican, but you are a Canadian wanting to speak to a Spaniard.


----------



## Horlics

There is an option to test yourself and it will start you at a more advanced level. If you pass the test of course 



AllHeart said:


> Thanks, Horlics. Yes, I'd rather a website than a book. So I signed up for Duolingo and passed the first stage of basics 1, onto the second stage now. Do you remember how long it takes before I can get to the verbs? There's basics 1, basics 2, then phrases. I don't see verbs anywhere near yet.


----------



## Horlics

Hey Allheart,

What level are you at? Can you hold a conversation in Spanish?


----------



## AllHeart

baldilocks said:


> Stop panicking. The majority, in fact all, of what you need to say can be encompassed in those "eight". All you want to do is converse and maybe write things in Spanish, you don't want to write a dissertation on the finer points of Spanish grammar.
> 
> You already have the conjugations of most of what you need and how to get from the key verbs to many of the variants in the stuff I sent you months and months ago.


Hi Baldilocks. I'm not panicking. I'm too heavily sedated to be able to panic. 

I can't access my email to get your book. They say there's ''unusual activity'' on my account, so they blocked me. They're asking for my phone # to reactivate it so they can send me a text, which I refuse to give them. So I'm trying to get it sorted out by email. So I don't know when I can access my email. I have no idea what they're talking about, other than perhaps they've finally figured out that I'm unusual? :confused2:


----------



## AllHeart

Horlics said:


> Hey Allheart,
> 
> What level are you at? Can you hold a conversation in Spanish?


I don't know what level I'm at, as the tests would likely all say different. But, yes, I hold conversations in Spanish, and can almost always figure out what they're saying, and I can almost always figure out a way to get my points across. What I'm lacking tremendously are my grammar skills, especially verb conjugations, which are horrific. But that's how I learned before - learn vocabulary, then grammar.


----------



## Helenameva

Allheart, to answer your original post, I think giving you this link will mean I am your new bestie -
Spanish Grammar


----------



## Horlics

In that situation I wouldn't worry about being able to list every verb tense and making sure that you have the correct list. I would concentrate firstly on knowing how to use present tense verbs and would include a good number of the irregular verbs. Then, try to master the past tense. Those two along with knowing how to use the present of haber with past participles will get you an awful long way.

Next would be the subjunctive because they use it a lot, although I found that once I was talking using what I mention above, I began to learn the subjunctive through conversations rather than my books and web sites.

BTW, I am an IT guy who tends to think in zeros and ones and worries an awful lot about absolute correctness. I had to let go of that to an extent. My obsession with complete coverage and accuracy was bogging me down.



AllHeart said:


> I don't know what level I'm at, as the tests would likely all say different. But, yes, I hold conversations in Spanish, and can almost always figure out what they're saying, and I can almost always figure out a way to get my points across. What I'm lacking tremendously are my grammar skills, especially verb conjugations, which are horrific. But that's how I learned before - learn vocabulary, then grammar.


----------



## xabiaxica

this is a great verb conjugator Spanish Verb Conjugation | Conjugate Spanish Verbs on SpanishDict


----------



## Horlics

Correct, but unfortunately this also applies to Duolingo and many other web resources. You have to be careful or at least aware.



baldilocks said:


> Take care with the "Practice makes perfect" series of books - they are published by McGraw Hill and are American. Not only is the English used Americanised so is much of the Spanish. Now this is fine if you are somebody in Milwaukee wanting to learn how to speak to a Mexican, but you are a Canadian wanting to speak to a Spaniard.


----------



## Horlics

I like Verb conjugation in 100s of languages. Free on-line verb conjugator.

Great layout of the answers.



xabiachica said:


> this is a great verb conjugator Spanish Verb Conjugation | Conjugate Spanish Verbs on SpanishDict


----------



## Chopera

Horlics said:


> In that situation I wouldn't worry about being able to list every verb tense and making sure that you have the correct list. I would concentrate firstly on knowing how to use present tense verbs and would include a good number of the irregular verbs. Then, try to master the past tense. Those two along with knowing how to use the present of haber with past participles will get you an awful long way.


Yes it's amazing how far you can get with just the present tense, and some indication of "when" you are talking about:

Today I am going shopping
Tomorrow I am going shopping
Yesterday I am going shopping

(ok the last one is a bit of a stretch but the listener will understand)




Horlics said:


> Next would be the subjunctive because they use it a lot, although I found that once I was talking using what I mention above, I began to learn the subjunctive through conversations rather than my books and web sites.
> 
> BTW, I am an IT guy who tends to think in zeros and ones and worries an awful lot about absolute correctness. I had to let go of that to an extent. My obsession with complete coverage and accuracy was bogging me down.


I'm an IT developer and had exactly the same problem. I was used to learning programing languages by learning the rules, thinking about how to express something using that language, and then going ahead and writing it down. But for learning "human" languages I think it's much better to speak first and think about what you're saying later!


----------



## AllHeart

Helenameva said:


> Allheart, to answer your original post, I think giving you this link will mean I am your new bestie -
> Spanish Grammar


OMG! I'm drooling at that! This is from the same site I showed with verb drills, but I hadn't noticed that tab. Thank you! I'll go back to that once I've done some verb conjugation grammar. It'll be fun to switch back and forth. 

Yes, definitely.... I now dub you my UK Bestie.


----------



## AllHeart

Horlics said:


> In that situation I wouldn't worry about being able to list every verb tense and making sure that you have the correct list. I would concentrate firstly on knowing how to use present tense verbs and would include a good number of the irregular verbs. Then, try to master the past tense. Those two along with knowing how to use the present of haber with past participles will get you an awful long way.
> 
> Next would be the subjunctive because they use it a lot, although I found that once I was talking using what I mention above, I began to learn the subjunctive through conversations rather than my books and web sites.


That's a really excellent suggestion, to start with present tense. I was wondering where to start. Thank you! Xabiachica explained in a previous thread how to use haber for past tense, and I'm fiddling around with that now, so will come to understand that, then hit the subjunctive. The idea is to know where to start, and I appreciate your guidance. 



Horlics said:


> BTW, I am an IT guy who tends to think in zeros and ones and worries an awful lot about absolute correctness. I had to let go of that to an extent. My obsession with complete coverage and accuracy was bogging me down.


That's the angle I'm coming from too - doing work IT and medical transcription, thinking in absolutes. So my training is, there is one right way and the rest are the wrong ways. But it's actually refreshing and feels so decadent to be so completely ignorant of the grammar. I keep smiling on the inside as I'm messing up, saying to myself, "Self, this is proof of your retirement."


----------



## AllHeart

xabiachica said:


> this is a great verb conjugator Spanish Verb Conjugation | Conjugate Spanish Verbs on SpanishDict





Horlics said:


> I like Verb conjugation in 100s of languages. Free on-line verb conjugator.
> 
> Great layout of the answers.



Wow! Wow! Wow! Thank you guys! :clap2:


----------



## AllHeart

Chopera said:


> Yes it's amazing how far you can get with just the present tense, and some indication of "when" you are talking about:
> 
> Today I am going shopping
> Tomorrow I am going shopping
> Yesterday I am going shopping
> 
> (ok the last one is a bit of a stretch but the listener will understand)


I can't get over how kind and forgiving people are with me. The result of me messing up and them being kind and helping me is that I try harder and learn more. When they see that I'm trying and learning, that makes people even more forgiving and more helpful. It's like a positive feedback system, if you know what I mean.


----------



## AllHeart

Here's an update that may be helpful to others....

The site that I'm using for verb drills is fantastic! It seems when you read it that you need to buy software for this to work (Camino del éxito), but you don't need to buy it. The other great thing about this site is that it has free tests as you go along. At this point I've done present tense for -ar verbs. So in case anyone is interested, here's a most excellent site for verb drills: Spanish Verb Conjugation Drills.

Another exciting thing in my life is that I've finally started using accents. Yee-hah! I'm using what I think is the easiest way for people without a Spanish keyboard - using the ASCII codes on my numeric keypad. Others might find this helpful, so here it is:

How to Type Spanish Letters and Accents (á, é, í, ó, ú, ü, ñ, ¿, ¡) | SpanishDict Answers

Until now, I hadn't noticed even the basic accents - like él and tú. Yes, I know, a lot can escape me! :noidea:


----------



## AllHeart

I just found the ASCII code for capital letters. So I wrote up a list of the letters and symbols. Here they are in case anyone wants to know. So you are to click ALT + the number on your numeric keypad (on the right of your keyboard, not the top row of numbers):

á – 160
é – 130
í – 161
ñ – 164 
ó – 162 
ú – 163 
ü – 129
Á – 181
É – 144
Í – 214 
Ó – 224 
Ú – 233
Ü – 154
¿ - 168
¡ - 173


Here's a full list of the ASCII codes: http://www.theasciicode.com.ar/exte...-lowercase-letter-n-tilde-ascii-code-164.html


----------



## Chopera

AllHeart said:


> I just found the ASCII code for capital letters. So I wrote up a list of the letters and symbols. Here they are in case anyone wants to know. So you are to click ALT + the number on your numeric keypad (on the right of your keyboard, not the top row of numbers):
> 
> á – 160
> é – 130
> í – 161
> ñ – 164
> ó – 162
> ú – 163
> ü – 129
> Á – 181
> É – 144
> Í – 214
> Ó – 224
> Ú – 233
> Ü – 154
> ¿ - 168
> ¡ - 173
> 
> 
> Here's a full list of the ASCII codes: ASCII code Ã± ,eñe, enie, spanish letter enye, lowercase n with tilde, American Standard Code for Information Interchange, The complete ASCII table, characters,letters, vowels with accents, consonants, signs, symbols, numbers enie, spanish, enye, low


If you are going to be here a while it's worth getting a Spanish keyboard, which is more or less a superset of the English keyboard. A few characters are in different places, but not the letters (unlike with French keyboards) so it's pretty quick to adapt and you get keys to add accents, etc.


----------



## AllHeart

Chopera said:


> If you are going to be here a while it's worth getting a Spanish keyboard, which is more or less a superset of the English keyboard. A few characters are in different places, but not the letters (unlike with French keyboards) so it's pretty quick to adapt and you get keys to add accents, etc.


Good morning, Chopera. At this point I'm not writing enough in Spanish to make it worthwhile, but shopping for a new keyboard is something I'll consider if for some reason I start writing more in Spanish. 

Verb grammar question...

I always use estar with verbs when I want to say I am doing something, but I now suspect this may be redundant. The site refers to a progressive tense in the use of estar but I can't find anything on the site about progressive tense, and I suspect that's what I'm using with estar. So the site says the Spanish present tense of a verb can be three things, example with hablar is I am speaking, I speak, I do speak. So when I use estar, I think that's redundant. Example, Yo estoy hablando for I am speaking. Is that redundant? Am I supposed to just say, Yo hablo? Any help would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Horlics

estar + the gerund to construct a progressive tense... nothing wrong with that. Although, thinking about it, I don't use it much myself. You wouldn't really replace estoy hablando with yo hablo because they're different, of course.

If I wanted to say "i am speaking with my friend" I would use estoy hablando and none of the others. With Yo hablo I would use it if I was going to then add some time context, e.g. i speak with my mother every day.



AllHeart said:


> Good morning, Chopera. At this point I'm not writing enough in Spanish to make it worthwhile, but shopping for a new keyboard is something I'll consider if for some reason I start writing more in Spanish.
> 
> Verb grammar question...
> 
> I always use estar with verbs when I want to say I am doing something, but I now suspect this may be redundant. The site refers to a progressive tense in the use of estar but I can't find anything on the site about progressive tense, and I suspect that's what I'm using with estar. So the site says the Spanish present tense of a verb can be three things, example with hablar is I am speaking, I speak, I do speak. So when I use estar, I think that's redundant. Example, Yo estoy hablando for I am speaking. Is that redundant? Am I supposed to just say, Yo hablo? Any help would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Chopera

AllHeart said:


> Good morning, Chopera. At this point I'm not writing enough in Spanish to make it worthwhile, but shopping for a new keyboard is something I'll consider if for some reason I start writing more in Spanish.
> 
> Verb grammar question...
> 
> I always use estar with verbs when I want to say I am doing something, but I now suspect this may be redundant. The site refers to a progressive tense in the use of estar but I can't find anything on the site about progressive tense, and I suspect that's what I'm using with estar. So the site says the Spanish present tense of a verb can be three things, example with hablar is I am speaking, I speak, I do speak. So when I use estar, I think that's redundant. Example, Yo estoy hablando for I am speaking. Is that redundant? Am I supposed to just say, Yo hablo? Any help would be greatly appreciated.


You often see the "progressive" tense referred to as the "contiuous" tense (that's what I know it as).

In the present tense you use "estoy hablando" (you can drop the "yo") for "I am speaking" and "hablo" for "I speak". There is no direct equivalent for "I do speak" - I think this is referred to as the "emphatic" - but in Spanish you could say "Sí hablo" to provide the emphasis.

They both work in pretty much the same way in each language: if you want to describe an action taking place then you can use the continuous/progressive if you want describe more general things then use the other one (the "present simple"). No need to learn the exact rules because if you know when to use them in English then you can work it out in Spainish.

The word "hablando/speaking" is often referred to as the gerund and in Spanish it usually ends with "...ando" and in English with "...ing".

In the past tense you can often use the continuous or the imperfect to describe actions taking place.

As an aside - if you want to improve your accent - concentrate on pronouncing the "o" at the end like a Spaniard (as in "fox") rather than the long drawn out "ooowww" that English speakers use when it's the last letter in a word.


----------



## Horlics

Chopera said:


> As an aside - if you want to improve your accent - concentrate on pronouncing the "o" at the end like a Spaniard (as in "fox") rather than the long drawn out "ooowww" that English speakers use when it's the last letter in a word.


And widen that out to all the vowels. Another big one for the English is the tendency to say ah for an A. It's always a very short sound as in the "a" in "about".

The other is treating Es like an accented E and the end of cafe. The same way we say the E in fete. In fact it is always like in bet.

Just the vowels help enormously.


----------



## xabiaxica

AllHeart said:


> Good morning, Chopera. At this point I'm not writing enough in Spanish to make it worthwhile, but shopping for a new keyboard is something I'll consider if for some reason I start writing more in Spanish.
> 
> Verb grammar question...
> 
> I always use estar with verbs when I want to say I am doing something, but I now suspect this may be redundant. The site refers to a progressive tense in the use of estar but I can't find anything on the site about progressive tense, and I suspect that's what I'm using with estar. So the site says the Spanish present tense of a verb can be three things, example with hablar is I am speaking, I speak, I do speak. So when I use estar, I think that's redundant. Example, Yo estoy hablando for I am speaking. Is that redundant? Am I supposed to just say, Yo hablo? Any help would be greatly appreciated.



you should only use estar + gerundio at the time you are _*actually doing something *_(or were doing something when something else happened)


so you could say _estoy estudiando español _(present continuous) actually during a class, but you shouldn't if you were telling someone that you do it - you'd say _estudio español_


----------



## AllHeart

Wow, thank you so much for your help! That's 3 teachers to one student. I feel so spoiled! 

With the three different explanations, I get understand you. So I wasn't using it quite correctly before, but now understand how to use it correctly. Thank you!

As is typical with learning, one answer often leads to another question... 

I can't find info on progressive tenses or info on the gerund. Is what you call the gerund the same ending of ''ando'' just for for the -AR verbs? 

So for -AR it's -ando, ex. andando (andar, to walk), bailando (bailar, to dance), escuchando (esuchar, to listen).

For -ER is it -iendo? Ex. comiendo (comer, to eat), bebiendo (beber, to drink), vendiendo (vender, to sell).

For -IR is it also -iendo? Ex. asistiendo (asistir, to attend), permitiendo (permitir, to permit), escribiendo (escribir, to write).

This is how I've been using what you call the gerund in the progressive tense. Is this correct?


----------



## AllHeart

I found progressive tense and gerund on another website. Yay! What I said in my last post is correct. Here's the website:

Gerunds and the progressive tenses in Spanish


----------



## Horlics

AllHeart said:


> That's 3 teachers to one student. I feel so spoiled!


I'd better be careful though, as I am nowhere near qualified to advise on Spanish! After almost every conversation I have I can go back over it in my head and spot a few mistakes.

If ever Xchica says something different to what I say, she's right, not me


----------



## Chopera

Horlics said:


> I'd better be careful though, as I am nowhere near qualified to advise on Spanish! After almost every conversation I have I can go back over it in my head and spot a few mistakes.
> 
> If ever Xchica says something different to what I say, she's right, not me


Indeed, I'm not a Spanish teacher either so I stand to be corrected - which I think is what a forum is about.


----------



## Horlics

Chopera said:


> Indeed, I'm not a Spanish teacher either so I stand to be corrected - which I think is what a forum is about.


I think a forum is about 2 things. It's where people come to ask advice, and it's where discussions take place. 

If I ask for advice then I would hope that anybody responding would either, a) know what they're talking about, or b) keep quiet and let somebody who does know what they're talking about respond.

If it's a general discussion anything goes.

So, given my point-of-view is as described above, I thought it was worth pointing out that I know a bit about Spanish but I am no expert.


----------



## AllHeart

Horlics said:


> I think a forum is about 2 things. It's where people come to ask advice, and it's where discussions take place.
> 
> If I ask for advice then I would hope that anybody responding would either, a) know what they're talking about, or b) keep quiet and let somebody who does know what they're talking about respond.
> 
> If it's a general discussion anything goes.
> 
> So, given my point-of-view is as described above, I thought it was worth pointing out that I know a bit about Spanish but I am no expert.


I really like that way of seeing the forum.  I don't know that I would have understood the concepts of progressive tense and gerund without three different ways of explaining it. So, again, thank you.

Chopera, I took your advice and went shopping yesterday for a wireless Spanish keyboard and mouse for an anniversary present to myself to mark six months since arriving in Spain. (I need very little prodding when it comes to shopping ) I've set up my Windows with English and Spanish keyboard input, so I can easily switch languages back and forth. Now I'm on Spanish.... ñ, Ñ, á, Á, é, É, ó, Ó, ç, Ç, ¡, ¿ Yay! :roll:


----------



## Chopera

Horlics said:


> I think a forum is about 2 things. It's where people come to ask advice, and it's where discussions take place.
> 
> If I ask for advice then I would hope that anybody responding would either, a) know what they're talking about, or b) keep quiet and let somebody who does know what they're talking about respond.
> 
> If it's a general discussion anything goes.
> 
> So, given my point-of-view is as described above, I thought it was worth pointing out that I know a bit about Spanish but I am no expert.


I agree - it's definitely worth throwing in a few caveats for the sake of general discussion. Especially when it comes to topics with lots of "grey areas" like Spanish grammar where I think the value is often in the discussion itself rather than any hard-and-fast "facts" that get posted, which can be looked up on grammar websites anyway. Hence the need to encourage discussion, regardless of expertise.


----------



## Horlics

When learning languages there are common mistakes which speakers of one language will make when trying to learn another. For example, I find that Spanish speakers will use "a" where it is not required when speaking English. It's to do with the personal "a" in Spanish, I suppose.

So, about "estoy hablando". Something similar....

I've worked with a lot of Indians over the years. They say "i am having a motorbike and i like it very much". When what they mean is, "I have a motorbike", as in, they own one. They make this mistake constantly.

So what's the point of all this. I think it's a good idea to read some of the many references for common mistakes that English learners of Spanish make. Here's one link (although not the best) and number four on the list, "estoy buscando para"... guilty! Over and over again.

20 common errors made by English Speaking Learners of Spanish


----------



## AllHeart

Horlics said:


> When learning languages there are common mistakes which speakers of one language will make when trying to learn another. For example, I find that Spanish speakers will use "a" where it is not required when speaking English. It's to do with the personal "a" in Spanish, I suppose.
> 
> So, about "estoy hablando". Something similar....
> 
> I've worked with a lot of Indians over the years. They say "i am having a motorbike and i like it very much". When what they mean is, "I have a motorbike", as in, they own one. They make this mistake constantly.
> 
> So what's the point of all this. I think it's a good idea to read some of the many references for common mistakes that English learners of Spanish make. Here's one link (although not the best) and number four on the list, "estoy buscando para"... guilty! Over and over again.
> 
> 20 common errors made by English Speaking Learners of Spanish


That´s really, really advanced for me! I flunked hands down.  But I took many notes in my spreadsheet. Thank you for that. I have no idea how people can understand my writing or speaking! :confused2: I often text in Spanish with my limited knowledge and without accents (because I have no accents on my English BlackBerry unless I go into symbols). Somehow we communicate both in written and spoken forms. To me, this is a good example of kindness by others.


----------



## kalohi

I never use accents when I text! If everyone misses out on entire chunks of words surely a missed accent can't make much of a difference.


----------



## Alcalaina

On my phone it is very easy to switch from English to Spanish predictive text and it puts the accents in for you.


----------



## baldilocks

Horlics said:


> When learning languages there are common mistakes which speakers of one language will make when trying to learn another. For example, I find that Spanish speakers will use "a" where it is not required when speaking English. It's to do with the personal "a" in Spanish, I suppose.
> 
> So, about "estoy hablando". Something similar....
> 
> I've worked with a lot of Indians over the years. They say "i am having a motorbike and i like it very much". When what they mean is, "I have a motorbike", as in, they own one. They make this mistake constantly.
> 
> So what's the point of all this. I think it's a good idea to read some of the many references for common mistakes that English learners of Spanish make. Here's one link (although not the best) and number four on the list, "estoy buscando para"... guilty! Over and over again.
> 
> 20 common errors made by English Speaking Learners of Spanish


Many of the problems arise because, in English, we use a basic verb and modify its usage by adding a proposition, e.g. look +for, +at, +like, etc. whereas in Spanish the preposition is included in the verb and is a completely different word, e.g. (using the English examples) buscar (to look for), mirar (to look at), parecer (to look like), etc, all to confuse the English (!)


----------



## Chopera

baldilocks said:


> Many of the problems arise because, in English, we use a basic verb and modify its usage by adding a proposition, e.g. look +for, +at, +like, etc. whereas in Spanish the preposition is included in the verb and is a completely different word, e.g. (using the English examples) buscar (to look for), mirar (to look at), parecer (to look like), etc, all to confuse the English (!)


I imagine it's a lot worse for the Spanish - Pesky Wesky will know for sure - but all those phrasal verbs must be a nightmare to learn


----------



## AllHeart

kalohi said:


> I never use accents when I text! If everyone misses out on entire chunks of words surely a missed accent can't make much of a difference.


That's exactly my thinking too. 



Alcalaina said:


> On my phone it is very easy to switch from English to Spanish predictive text and it puts the accents in for you.


My phone has figured out that I'm writing in Spanish and English. So now my predictive text includes both Spanish and English words. I guess that's why they call them smartphones. 

Grammar question... Are there contractions in Spanish as there are in English, such as we're, they've, he's and I'll?


----------



## AllHeart

baldilocks said:


> Many of the problems arise because, in English, we use a basic verb and modify its usage by adding a proposition, e.g. look +for, +at, +like, etc. whereas in Spanish the preposition is included in the verb and is a completely different word, e.g. (using the English examples) buscar (to look for), mirar (to look at), parecer (to look like), etc, all to confuse the English (!)


Great tip. Thank you!


----------



## Chopera

AllHeart said:


> ...
> Grammar question... Are there contractions in Spanish as there are in English, such as we're, they've, he's and I'll?


No you'll never see an apostrophe in Spanish unless it's a word taken from another language or (very rarely) the text is trying to represent slang expressions/accents (e.g. you might see them in comics)


----------



## baldilocks

AllHeart said:


> That's exactly my thinking too.
> 
> 
> 
> My phone has figured out that I'm writing in Spanish and English. So now my predictive text includes both Spanish and English words. I guess that's why they call them smartphones.
> 
> Grammar question... Are there contractions in Spanish as there are in English, such as we're, they've, he's and I'll?


Nowhere near as many, but you have got 'al' and 'del' and you are saved many of them because the personal pronoun is inferred from the verb ending, although occasionally one needs to also add the pronoun to avoid confusion.


----------



## AllHeart

baldilocks said:


> Nowhere near as many, but you have got 'al' and 'del' and you are saved many of them because the personal pronoun is inferred from the verb ending, although occasionally one needs to also add the pronoun to avoid confusion.


I think I see what you mean, that there are contractions like al and del, but the apostrophe isn't used. Is that what you mean?


----------



## Chopera

AllHeart said:


> I think I see what you mean, that there are contractions like al and del, but the apostrophe isn't used. Is that what you mean?


Personally I wouldn't call 'al' and 'del' contractions because they are words in their own right, even though they were originally derived from two words.


----------



## AllHeart

In case anyone wants to know how to change your keyboard language input in Windows, here are the instructions:
https://support.office.com/en-ca/ar...591-8abd-f667270615b3&ui=en-US&rs=en-CA&ad=CA

I have another question... I can't find my forward delete button on my new Spanish keyboard. Hopefully someone can help me figure out where it is. But I suspect I don't have one, which would really mess up my life! Imagine a blonde trying to navigate through life without a forward delete button?  Here is a website that shows the Spanish keyboard layout:

Spanish Keyboard layout and special alt characters Spain (Spanish) version

As you can see, they only show basic buttons, because the rest are different, depending on your keyboard. So here are my four pics. Can you spot the forward delete button? 

Both my English and Spanish keyboards.








English keyboard showing the backwards delete button (backspace) and forward delete button (delete).








Left side of my Spanish keyboard.








Right side of my Spanish keyboard (Retroceso is backwards delete).








So can you spot the forward delete button? :fingerscrossed:


----------



## AllHeart

Chopera said:


> Personally I wouldn't call 'al' and 'del' contractions because they are words in their own right, even though they were originally derived from two words.


Yes, I see what you mean. Thank you.


----------



## baldilocks

Chopera said:


> Personally I wouldn't call 'al' and 'del' contractions because they are words in their own right, even though they were originally derived from two words.


But they are a contraction since one can use "a el" and "de el" in certain circumstances.


----------



## baldilocks

AllHeart said:


> I have another question... I can't find my forward delete button on my new Spanish keyboard. Hopefully someone can help me figure out where it is. But I suspect I don't have one, which would really mess up my life! Imagine a blonde trying to navigate through life without a forward delete button?  Here is a website that shows the Spanish keyboard layout:


I think you may find it is the key marked "Supra"


----------



## AllHeart

baldilocks said:


> I think you may find it is the key marked "Supra"


Yes, that´s it! Thank you so very much! :thumb:


----------



## Chopera

baldilocks said:


> But they are a contraction since one can use "a el" and "de el" in certain circumstances.


I know you'll find grammar texts saying they are contractions, but I personally disagree because usually it is incorrect to use "a el" and "de el" instead of "al" and "del". It's not like in English where you can say either "we are going to the cinema" or "we're going to the cinema", because strictly speaking in Spanish it is incorrect to say "vamos a el cine" instead of "vamos al cine". So to my mind "al" is not a contraction of "a el" because they are not interchangeable - but rather "al" should be used instead of "a el" in most cases.


----------



## Alcalaina

_Para_ is often abbreviated to _pa_ in my part of Spain, which results in some interesting contractions such as 

Palante
Patrás
Parriba
Pacá

They aren't too difficult to work out!


----------



## AllHeart

This is a really, really good grammar argument. I think we could find a compromise in the argument, perhaps... Some contractions have become proper words and others are slang. Regardless of whether they´re proper words or not, an apostrophe is not used in Spanish contractions. Does that sound about right?

Just an update on my studies... I´ve just finished the sections of conjugating present tense regular verbs (-ir, -er and -ar), which is sections 1-4. Spanish Verb Conjugation Drills. So now I´m on to ser and estar (section 5).

I´m really, really happy to have bought this Spanish keyboard, as it´s making studying much easier - especially now that I know where the forward delete button is. So thanks for the shopping nudge, Chopera, and thanks for finding the delete key, Baldilocks!


----------



## Chopera

AllHeart said:


> This is a really, really good grammar argument. I think we could find a compromise in the argument, perhaps... Some contractions have become proper words and others are slang. Regardless of whether they´re proper words or not, an apostrophe is not used in Spanish contractions. Does that sound about right?


Yes that's right - don't worry about it - there are only two "contractions" in Spanish anyway (the ones Baldi pointed out) and I'm only being pedantic as to whether they really are contractions.


----------



## baldilocks

AllHeart said:


> This is a really, really good grammar argument. I think we could find a compromise in the argument, perhaps... Some contractions have become proper words and others are slang. Regardless of whether they´re proper words or not, an apostrophe is not used in Spanish contractions. Does that sound about right?


Apostrophes are quite often not used in English contractions, either. Think: Mr, Mrs, Dr, St, Rd.


----------



## AllHeart

baldilocks said:


> Apostrophes are quite often not used in English contractions, either. Think: Mr, Mrs, Dr, St, Rd.


Don´t you think those are abbreviations - not contractions?


----------



## baldilocks

AllHeart said:


> Don´t you think those are abbreviations - not contractions?


No. You need to know the difference. If the beginning and end of the word is there it is a contraction and does not need a period at the end. Foreshortening a word (e..g. Parl. for Parliament) is an abbreviation and needs the period.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Chopera said:


> I imagine it's a lot worse for the Spanish - Pesky Wesky will know for sure - but all those phrasal verbs must be a nightmare to learn


Phrasal verbs are the bane of an English students life.
Look at this old article by Miles Kington. I think it's hilarious, but perhaps you have to be in the business to find the humour...


----------



## AllHeart

baldilocks said:


> No. You need to know the difference. If the beginning and end of the word is there it is a contraction and does not need a period at the end. Foreshortening a word (e..g. Parl. for Parliament) is an abbreviation and needs the period.


Well, the periods in these contractions were typically and only recently are the periods being dropped. Perhaps that´s my confusion. As I always say, I´m still learning English! Blvd, Lt, Ms, Sra, Jr ....no periods!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

here's a bigger version of the phrasal verbs article in case you're interested


----------



## baldilocks

Pesky Wesky said:


> here's a bigger version of the phrasal verbs article in case you're interested


Thanks for that, I was having some difficulty reading it.


----------



## Alcalaina

AllHeart said:


> Well, the periods in these contractions were typically and only recently are the periods being dropped. Perhaps that´s my confusion. As I always say, I´m still learning English! Blvd, Lt, Ms, Sra, Jr ....no periods!


Periods/full stops are no longer required after Mr etc in English. The reason (or so I was told) is to save time and effort in the printing industry, when every punctuation mark had to be inserted in the text. They are more common in Spain though.


----------



## Chopera

Alcalaina said:


> Periods/full stops are no longer required after Mr etc in English. The reason (or so I was told) is to save time and effort in the printing industry, when every punctuation mark had to be inserted in the text. They are more common in Spain though.


I read somewhere that US English still had the full stops but UK English had dropped them.


----------



## Chopera

baldilocks said:


> No. You need to know the difference. If the beginning and end of the word is there it is a contraction and does not need a period at the end. Foreshortening a word (e..g. Parl. for Parliament) is an abbreviation and needs the period.


My understanding is contractions (in this sense) are a certain type of abbreviation. Of course if you are going to say "Mr" is a contraction then so too is "Snr" in Spanish (but most texts only mention "al" and "del"). I'm not sure if "Mrs" now counts as a contraction because of the "r" (it was originally a contraction of "mistress" but now represents the word "missus", which has no "r").


----------



## Alcalaina

Chopera said:


> I read somewhere that US English still had the full stops but UK English had dropped them.


I guess like all these things there are no hard and fast rules in the English language, just preferences. We have no equivalent of the Real Academia Española to lay down the law! 

I used to have to follow the guidelines of the American Psychological Association when typing manuscripts. I think their rule was that periods should be used after Mr., Dr. etc but not in degrees (PhD not Ph.D.) or acronyms (APA not A.P.A.) But other style guides differed.


----------



## Horlics

Alcalaina said:


> I guess like all these things there are no hard and fast rules in the English language, just preferences.


It certainly seems like there are just preferences rather than rules but the reverse is in fact the case. The thing about language is that if enough people follow different conventions for long enough, then the rules are changed.

Thankfully not all errors make it into the rule book, so my relatives in Lancashire remain incorrect when they say:

- will you borrow me ten pounds please
- will you learn me how to do that
- it weren't me
- after he come into the lounge he watched tv


----------



## AllHeart

Grammar question... On the website, they have a complicated way of explaining the difference between the use of estar and ser in describing something as an adjective. I seem to remember learning the difference as estar being temporary and ser being permanent. So to say to someone estoy feliz versus soy feliz, estar is that I'm happy in the moment or temporarily, whereas soy feliz means I'm always happy or permanently. So is that correct way to think of this - estar is temporary and ser is permanent?

As a medical transcriptionist for 30 years, I've seen more and more periods dropped. In about the last 20 years in Canada, more and more hospitals have adopted the format of the American Association of Medical Transcription Book of Style, which had more and more periods dropped for acronyms and abbreviations. This is fueled by the fact that we get paid per keystroke. One hospital I worked for didn't want two spaces after the period - only one. Personally, I like periods because...because... Well, I just like periods. Period.


----------



## Horlics

Yes re the ser and estar, but as ever watch for surprises, for example the location of a building is considered temporary.



AllHeart said:


> Grammar question... On the website, they have a complicated way of explaining the difference between the use of estar and ser in describing something as an adjective. I seem to remember learning the difference as estar being temporary and ser being permanent. So to say to someone estoy feliz versus soy feliz - estar is that I'm happy in the moment or temporarily, whereas soy feliz means I'm always happy. So is that correct way to think of this - estar is temporary and ser is permanent?
> 
> As a medical transcriptionist for 30 years, I've seen more and more periods dropped. In about the last 20 years in Canada, more and more hospitals have adopted the format of the American Association of Medical Transcription Book of Style, which had more and more periods dropped for acronyms and abbreviations. This is fueled by the fact that we get paid per keystroke. One hospital I worked for didn't want two spaces after the period - only one. Personally, I like periods because...because... Well, I just like periods. Period.


----------



## AllHeart

Horlics said:


> Yes re the ser and estar, but as ever watch for surprises, for example the location of a building is considered temporary.


Well, living in Málaga, that's appropriate.


----------



## Chopera

Horlics said:


> Yes re the ser and estar, but as ever watch for surprises, for example the location of a building is considered temporary.


Being single is considered permanent ("ser soltero") and being married is considered temporary ("estar casado")!

"Ser" is used for describing the location of an event, e.g. "la reunión es en la sala" and can also be used to make the passive voice in Spanish.


----------



## baldilocks

The greatest confusion is the most temporal of all - "time" - uses 'ser'!


----------



## Alcalaina

Horlics said:


> It certainly seems like there are just preferences rather than rules but the reverse is in fact the case. The thing about language is that if enough people follow different conventions for long enough, then the rules are changed.
> 
> Thankfully not all errors make it into the rule book, so my relatives in Lancashire remain incorrect when they say:
> 
> - will you borrow me ten pounds please
> - will you learn me how to do that
> - it weren't me
> - after he come into the lounge he watched tv


So where is this "rule book"? 

I'm with the linguist David Crystal on this. There are no rules, just conventions which are determined by usage.



> It takes a while for a change in grammar to spread throughout society. To begin with, just a few people use the new form, then a few more, and slowly it becomes the new way of talking and writing. But, as with any new development, not everyone likes it. People who are used to the old way of talking often dislike the new usage. Indeed, they can get very, very cross about it, and try to persuade everyone not to use it – usually by writing letters to the newspapers or complaining to a broadcasting company every time they hear the new usage on the radio or television.
> 
> They're wasting their time, of course. A new usage arrives when most people in a society decide to use it. In the case of English, that means millions and millions of people. Writing a letter of complaint to the BBC might make you feel better, but it won't stop the change taking place.


David Crystal on Language Change : Dog Eared : Thinkmap Visual Thesaurus


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Alcalaina said:


> So where is this "rule book"?
> 
> I'm with the linguist David Crystal on this. There are no rules, just conventions which are determined by usage.
> 
> 
> 
> David Crystal on Language Change : Dog Eared : Thinkmap Visual Thesaurus


I very much agree with David Crystal on this and have always defended this viewpoint on the forum. Language is used to communicate so if two people are communcating using non regulated language (Right mate? and Hey used as greetings) it's achieving its end.


----------



## Chopera

Alcalaina said:


> So where is this "rule book"?
> 
> I'm with the linguist David Crystal on this. There are no rules, just conventions which are determined by usage.
> 
> 
> 
> David Crystal on Language Change : Dog Eared : Thinkmap Visual Thesaurus


While there is no single point of reference for English grammar, there needs to be an accepted set of rules to make sure people are learning the same thing!


----------



## Chopera

Pesky Wesky said:


> I very much agree with David Crystal on this and have always defended this viewpoint on the forum. Language is used to communicate so if two people are communcating using non regulated language (Right mate? and Hey used as greetings) it's achieving its end.


There's nothing wrong with two people communicating in slang, provided they both understand it. Problems arise when native English speakers don't adapt what they're saying if the other person is not a native speaker. I've squirmed in many meetings as native English speakers come out with all sorts of jargon that their audience simply doesn't understand.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Chopera said:


> There's nothing wrong with two people communicating in slang, provided they both understand it. Problems arise when native English speakers don't adapt what they're saying if the other person is not a native speaker. I've squirmed in many meetings as native English speakers come out with all sorts of jargon that their audience simply doesn't understand.


Yes, that's the whole point. If you are communicating then you're achieving and if you're not, then you're not.
Did I manage to communicate my idea there??


----------



## baldilocks

Chopera said:


> There's nothing wrong with two people communicating in slang, provided they both understand it. Problems arise when native English speakers don't adapt what they're saying if the other person is not a native speaker. I've squirmed in many meetings as native English speakers come out with all sorts of jargon that their audience simply doesn't understand.


That is fine when it is just between two people both of whom know the code. However when one wishes to communicate with a wider audience and the transmitter does not use a standard code but some gobbledygook or gibberish that is his own personal invention or has a very limited circulation, the message does not get across. Hence for normal general communication we use a standard code that we all understand.

What is a "native English speaker"? Many Americans consider themselves 'native English speakers' as do British, Australians, New Zealanders and... Yet in some discussions they are mutually unintelligible, not just from the accent point of view or word usage, but because their native versions of English have diverged from the standard form, whatever that is.


----------



## Alcalaina

Chopera said:


> While there is no single point of reference for English grammar, there needs to be an accepted set of rules to make sure people are learning the same thing!


This is a perennial problem for teachers of English as a foreign language. They have to get their students through their exams so they have to teach the "rules" as defined by their exam board. Yet some of these are so out of date that in the real world nobody speaks like that any more.

Here's an example my teacher friend came up with the other day. Her grammar book says you can only use the Saxon genitive (possessive apostrophe) with living things. But there's a film called The World's End, and she has a leaflet for Thorpe Park in her hand saying "The park's attractions include ..."

The answer is for exam boards to be more flexible, not try and enforce rules that no longer apply. (In fact I would probably lose points for saying "try and enforce" instead of "try to".)


----------



## Alcalaina

Chopera said:


> There's nothing wrong with two people communicating in slang, provided they both understand it. Problems arise when native English speakers don't adapt what they're saying if the other person is not a native speaker. I've squirmed in many meetings as native English speakers come out with all sorts of jargon that their audience simply doesn't understand.


I think that's a different issue though. Slang is often used to deliberately exclude people who aren't "in the know". (Whoops, I've just split an infinitive.) And jargon is used to make yourself sound like an expert. (Oh dear, I've started a sentence with a preposition.)


----------



## baldilocks

Alcalaina said:


> I think that's a different issue though. Slang and jargon are often used to deliberately exclude people who aren't "in the know". (Whoops, I've just split an infinitive.)


but splitting an infinitive is quite acceptable to convey stress e.g. "to, boldly, go" carries much more stress that "to go boldly". You could have put the adverb before the infinitive and changed its meaning - i.e. "... used deliberately to exclude..." is not the same as ",,, used to deliberately exclude..."


----------



## Alcalaina

baldilocks said:


> but splitting an infinitive is quite acceptable to convey stress e.g. "to, boldly, go" carries much more stress that "to go boldly". You could have put the adverb before the infinitive and changed its meaning - i.e. "... used deliberately to exclude..." is not the same as ",,, used to deliberately exclude..."


I know. But 50 years ago I'd have been kicked out of grammar school for doing it - it was_ against the rules_. 

Flexibility of word order is one of the best things about the English language, in contrast to German for example. It gives it so much more scope for subtlety and nuance. 

The subjunctive does a similar thing in Spanish, but again people learning it insist on rules, which spoils all the fun.


----------



## AllHeart

Chopera said:


> Being single is considered permanent ("ser soltero") and being married is considered temporary ("estar casado")!


That's hilarious!!! Given the divorce rate and the increasing single status, perhaps this also is appropriate? 



Chopera said:


> "Ser" is used for describing the location of an event, e.g. "la reunión es en la sala" and can also be used to make the passive voice in Spanish.


There is a whole slew of rules that they teach on the website in the grammar section under sections 15-19 Spanish Grammar. But I'm not studying them right now; I'm just studying the verb conjugations of the two verbs. I was just referring to using the verb as an adjective, like temporary or permanent. This is how they explain it: Ser and Estar: Part One 

To me, it's easiest just to think of how I remember being taught - temporary versus permanent. Mind you, deciding when to use estar or ser could also be a subjective decision. For example, I could say soy loca. Or I could lie and say estoy loca.


----------



## Chopera

baldilocks said:


> That is fine when it is just between two people both of whom know the code. However when one wishes to communicate with a wider audience and the transmitter does not use a standard code but some gobbledygook or gibberish that is his own personal invention or has a very limited circulation, the message does not get across. Hence for normal general communication we use a standard code that we all understand.
> 
> What is a "native English speaker"? Many Americans consider themselves 'native English speakers' as do British, Australians, New Zealanders and... Yet in some discussions they are mutually unintelligible, not just from the accent point of view or word usage, but because their native versions of English have diverged from the standard form, whatever that is.


Generally a native English speaker is someone who has spoken English since a very young age (preferably less than 3) and has the language "wired in" - it is completely natural to them and they can think in that language. Their nationality is irrelevant - a Spaniard with an American parent will normally gain native English skills. There is no official standard form of English, but in practice I guess US English is the version people are most familiar with.

my son is Spanish but he is a native English speaker


----------



## baldilocks

Chopera said:


> Generally a native English speaker is someone who has spoken English since a very young age (preferably less than 3) and has the language "wired in" - it is completely natural to them and they can think in that language. Their nationality is irrelevant - a Spaniard with an American parent will normally gain native English skills. There is no official standard form of English, but in practice* I guess US English is the version people are most familiar with*.
> 
> my son is Spanish but he is a native English speaker


Are you sure that is what you meant to say?? Many Academies reject speakers of US English in favour of UK English. It is true that many get inundated with US English through TV programmes but that is not necessarily what they would prefer to learn.


----------



## Chopera

baldilocks said:


> Are you sure that is what you meant to say?? Many Academies reject speakers of US English in favour of UK English. It is true that many get inundated with US English through TV programmes but that is not necessarily what they would prefer to learn.


The difference between US English and UK English is largely down to accent, and I strongly suspect most people are more familiar with US accents, which tend not to vary too much, rather than the vast array of UK accents. If an academy rejects a teacher because they speak US English then it's their loss, and they are letting down their students. As others have said, people learn English to communicate and the most familiar accent for communicating in English is the US accent. I've sat through hundreds of business meetings with Spaniards and I've noticed that if an American speaks they nearly always understand, and if it's a non-American they often struggle.


----------



## baldilocks

Chopera said:


> The difference between US English and UK English is largely down to accent, and I strongly suspect most people are more familiar with US accents, which tend not to vary too much, rather than the vast array of UK accents. If an academy rejects a teacher because they speak US English then it's their loss, and they are letting down their students. As others have said, people learn English to communicate and the most familiar accent for communicating in English is the US accent. I've sat through hundreds of business meetings with Spaniards and I've noticed that if an American speaks they nearly always understand, and if it's a non-American they often struggle.


Not just the accent - it is often word usages and different words.


----------



## Horlics

Well, David has his views. 

Taking one element, the grammar. Try to find a book that doesn't say it contains the "rules".



Alcalaina said:


> So where is this "rule book"?
> 
> I'm with the linguist David Crystal on this. There are no rules, just conventions which are determined by usage.


----------



## Alcalaina

Horlics said:


> Well, David has his views.
> 
> Taking one element, the grammar. Try to find a book that doesn't say it contains the "rules".


But the point is that the rules (I'd rather call them conventions) change over time and vary geographically. There is no single, incontrovertible Book of Rules because there is no official body overseeing use of the English language. So a grammar book will teach the conventions of the time and place it is being used in. Even Fowler's Modern English Usage has to be updated every 20 years or so.


----------



## AllHeart

Alcalaina said:


> But the point is that the rules (I'd rather call them conventions) change over time and vary geographically. There is no single, incontrovertible Book of Rules because there is no official body overseeing use of the English language. So a grammar book will teach the conventions of the time and place it is being used in. Even Fowler's Modern English Usage has to be updated every 20 years or so.


This is so true. On the topic of Spanish grammar for this thread, even the Spanish alphabet has changed recently. Here's what the BBC Spanish language website has to say:

_The Spanish alphabet is called el abecedario, from the name of the first four letters, a b c d.

Between 1803 and 2010 it used to have 29 letters, including ch, ñ and LL, which were considered letters of the alphabet in their own right. However, in 2010, the Academy of the Spanish Language agreed that ch and LL would no longer be considered separate letters, bringing the Spanish alphabet more in line with the universal Latin alphabet. As their status as letters is still engrained in general usage after more than two hundred years, they’re included below. _

Here's the link: BBC - Languages - Spanish - A Guide to Spanish - The Spanish alphabet


----------



## baldilocks

AllHeart said:


> This is so true. On the topic of Spanish grammar for this thread, even the Spanish alphabet has changed recently. Here's what the BBC Spanish language website has to say:
> 
> _The Spanish alphabet is called el abecedario, from the name of the first four letters, a b c d.
> 
> Between 1803 and 2010 it used to have 29 letters, including ch, ñ and LL, which were considered letters of the alphabet in their own right. However, in 2010, the Academy of the Spanish Language agreed that ch and LL would no longer be considered separate letters, bringing the Spanish alphabet more in line with the universal Latin alphabet. As their status as letters is still engrained in general usage after more than two hundred years, they’re included below. _
> 
> Here's the link: BBC - Languages - Spanish - A Guide to Spanish - The Spanish alphabet


My dictionary still treats them as separate letters with 'ch' following 'cz', 'll' following 'ly' and 'ñ' following 'ny'.


----------



## AllHeart

baldilocks said:


> My dictionary still treats them as separate letters with 'ch' following 'cz', 'll' following 'ly' and 'ñ' following 'ny'.


That's exactly Alcalaina's point - that there is no one body that dictates all the rules. There is no United Nations Grammar Police. Although I suspect if there was, they would be ignored anyway.


----------



## Alcalaina

AllHeart said:


> That's exactly Alcalaina's point - that there is no one body that dictates all the rules. There is no United Nations Grammar Police. Although I suspect if there was, they would be ignored anyway.


Actually, with Spanish there is: the Real Academia Española. They make rules and attempt to enforce them, and it was they who decided when the alphabet was changed. They are currently debating whether to do away with redundant accents on words where it doesn't affect the pronunciation, like_ sólo._

They insist that all imported foreign words are written phonetically, which is why you get _fútbol_ for football and _mítin_ for meeting.


----------



## AllHeart

Alcalaina said:


> Actually, with Spanish there is: the Real Academia Española. They make rules and attempt to enforce them, and it was they who decided when the alphabet was changed. They are currently debating whether to do away with redundant accents on words where it doesn't affect the pronunciation, like_ sólo._
> 
> They insist that all imported foreign words are written phonetically, which is why you get _fútbol_ for football and _mítin_ for meeting.


Well, I know they're not policing my neighbours here in Málaga - or they're doing a very, very bad job of it!


----------



## Alcalaina

AllHeart said:


> Well, I know they're not policing my neighbours here in Málaga - or they're doing a very, very bad job of it!


Quite. Language is an organic process and any attempt to regulate it is p*ssing in the wind, in my opinion.


----------



## baldilocks

Alcalaina said:


> Quite. Language is an organic process and any attempt to regulate it is p*ssing in the wind, in my opinion.


but if individuals choose to go their own way, then their attempts to communicate with others will, likewise, be p*ssing in the wind.


----------



## xabiaxica

baldilocks said:


> but if individuals choose to go their own way, then their attempts to communicate with others will, likewise, be p*ssing in the wind.


how many people do you know who, when spelling a word, say _ye _instead of _igriega_, & _doble uve_ instead of _uve doble??_


----------



## Pesky Wesky

xabiachica said:


> how many people do you know who, when spelling a word, say _ye _instead of _igriega_, & _doble uve_ instead of _uve doble??_


Ye???
i latina and i griega de toda la vida!


----------



## Alcalaina

baldilocks said:


> but if individuals choose to go their own way, then their attempts to communicate with others will, likewise, be p*ssing in the wind.


Individuals tend not to "go their own way" because they still need to communicate. Change happens within groups communicating mainly with each other. We learn language by imitation, not rulebooks.


----------



## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> Ye???
> i latina and i griega de toda la vida!


for me too - but unfortunately the Real Academia doesn't agree with us

i griega became 'ye' in 2010!!

at the same time they dropped ll & changed uve doble to doble uve


----------



## AllHeart

The decisions on language change typically come from the bottom up, rather than from the top to the bottom. So people make changes, then the various Grammar Police make the changes in their books. I saw this working close up in the medical transcription style guide. Using the example of the Spanish alphabet, more and more people stopped using the full Spanish alphabet, then the Academy took out the letters. I know this to be true from my Spanish neighbour when we studied the Spanish alphabet.

Texting is a free for all, with no real police, which can make texting confusing in communicating. It took me about a month to figure out the meaning of jajaja.


----------



## AllHeart

Grammar question that I hope someone knows... I've heard the term _irregular verbs_. Right now I'm studying stem-changing verbs, where the stem changes in conjugation to an i, ie and ue. This is in sections 6-8 http://www.studyspanish.com/verbs/

Are these what are called irregular verbs?


----------



## AllHeart

I just found the answer, and I was wrong - they are not those stem-changing verbs. Here's the answer: http://www.spanishdict.com/topics/show/39


----------



## AllHeart

Please, please tell me that the present tense is the hardest to learn. I need a light at the end of the tunnel and feel hopeless if all the tenses are as difficult as the present tense.


----------



## Horlics

Present is no harder or easier than the rest, IMO.


----------



## Alcalaina

AllHeart said:


> Please, please tell me that the present tense is the hardest to learn. I need a light at the end of the tunnel and feel hopeless if all the tenses are as difficult as the present tense.


What are you finding hard? The number of irregular verbs? Or which verb to use when?


----------



## AllHeart

Horlics said:


> Present is no harder or easier than the rest, IMO.


Well, thanks for being honest.



Alcalaina said:


> What are you finding hard? The number of irregular verbs? Or which verb to use when?


That's a good question. What I'm studying right now is the conjugation of verbs. What I'm finding hard is that there are so many different rules.


----------



## xabiaxica

AllHeart said:


> Well, thanks for being honest.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a good question. What I'm studying right now is the conjugation of verbs. What I'm finding hard is that there are so many different rules.


with the regular verbs there's one rule & it holds true for all the simple tenses (as in, not the compound ones) 

you take the ER / IR / AR off & replace it with something else, depending on the person - or just add something on to the end of the infinitive/full form

don't for goodness sake try to learn tons & tons of verbs - just learn the endings for the regulars that you use the most & you'll be able to do maybe 99% of of all verbs

learn a few essential irregular ones such as SER & TENER as well

for the stem/root changing verbs, there are basically 3 categories - so learn one or two of each & after a while you'll 'feel' when a verb fits one of those categories - & they have regular endings


----------



## AllHeart

xabiachica said:


> with the regular verbs there's one rule & it holds true for all the simple tenses (as in, not the compound ones)
> 
> you take the ER / IR / AR off & replace it with something else, depending on the person - or just add something on to the end of the infinitive/full form
> 
> don't for goodness sake try to learn tons & tons of verbs - just learn the endings for the regulars that you use the most & you'll be able to do maybe 99% of of all verbs
> 
> learn a few essential irregular ones such as SER & TENER as well
> 
> for the stem/root changing verbs, there are basically 3 categories - so learn one or two of each & after a while you'll 'feel' when a verb fits one of those categories - & they have regular endings


You nailed the problem on the head, in that I'm trying to learn too many verbs. I really like your suggestions on what to focus on. That's reduced my workload massively. That way too I can master a select number of verbs, and then build from those verbs, keeping them as my prototypes in learning. Thank you so very much for your help.


----------



## Horlics

Just stick with the present tense for now. I think you are trying to rush. I remember being told to do no more then 30 minutes a day in the beginning, as anything more wouldn't stick.

Only when i got to the stage of holding fairly fluent conversations did the other tenses start to sink in.

Slow down... you're not going to get this done overnight 



AllHeart said:


> Well, thanks for being honest.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a good question. What I'm studying right now is the conjugation of verbs. What I'm finding hard is that there are so many different rules.


----------



## AllHeart

Horlics said:


> Just stick with the present tense for now. I think you are trying to rush. I remember being told to do no more then 30 minutes a day in the beginning, as anything more wouldn't stick.
> 
> Only when i got to the stage of holding fairly fluent conversations did the other tenses start to sink in.
> 
> Slow down... you're not going to get this done overnight


You're giving me more credit than I'm worth. I'm only doing about 15 minutes a day. But I'm really, really smart, so it just seems like I'm working hard and long hours.


----------



## Horlics

Well my problem is I am very very good at one thing, which is IT. There is very little I don't know about computers. I studied computer science. I've built computers from components. I've programmed them and the zeros and ones level. I made a living designing large systems.

But my God was/is Spanish a struggle! And they say it's an easy one to learn. I found it - continue to find it - very difficult. But very rewarding.

I did some OU courses in Spanish and I am convinced that context and stories in which new language is introduced helps to make it stick. I think you need to do more than drills, good as they are.


----------



## AllHeart

Horlics said:


> Well my problem is I am very very good at one thing, which is IT. There is very little I don't know about computers. I studied computer science. I've built computers from components. I've programmed them and the zeros and ones level. I made a living designing large systems.
> 
> But my God was/is Spanish a struggle! And they say it's an easy one to learn.
> 
> I did some OU courses in Spanish and I am convinced that context and stories in which new language is introduced helps to make it stick. I think you need to do more than drills, good as they are.


I did IT work for my own computers and my friends, but that wasn't my speciality; transcription was my speciality. And my focus on computers is end user, never the designer. So my hat goes off to you. 

Spanish is coming easily to me, since I grew up with my parents speaking it, and I spoke Spanish with my father for four years in my teens. I'm learning primarily by talking and writing in emails and texts to now. I've studied a little with my Spanish neighbour, who is really helpful. But I've come to a point where I have to study verbs. There's only so much you can pick up on by talking and writing. It's like learning computers; there's only so much you can learn, but to really know computers, there are topics that need drills and hard work. So, yes, I'm doing more than drills, but the drills are a necessary evil, and I'm finding this part really, really hard.

P.S. What's OU courses?


----------



## baldilocks

Once one has got the hang of the basics, the best idea, I find, is to read books in Spanish - proper books, books that make sense. Within a short while, one will usually find that the frequency at which one needs to look up words in a dictionary gets less and less. The first book I read right through in Spanish was about a rebel in the Civil War, the cousin of one of our neighbours, so it was meaningful. Because it was so far removed from "the cat sat on the mat" type of book, I had to use the dictionary continually at the beginning and quickly found that I was using it less and less and could eventually maybe go two, three or more pages without needing to look up a word.

I am currently planning this year's holiday and most of the websites I am looking at are in Spanish and occasionally I have to look up a word, but not often.


----------



## baldilocks

AllHeart said:


> P.S. What's OU courses?


OU = Open University It is a study at home thing with study materials backed up by TV programmes and Summer schools.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

AllHeart said:


> I did IT work for my own computers and my friends, but that wasn't my speciality; transcription was my speciality. And my focus on computers is end user, never the designer. So my hat goes off to you.
> 
> Spanish is coming easily to me, since I grew up with my parents speaking it, and I spoke Spanish with my father for four years in my teens. I'm learning primarily by talking and writing in emails and texts to now. I've studied a little with my Spanish neighbour, who is really helpful. But I've come to a point where I have to study verbs. There's only so much you can pick up on by talking and writing. It's like learning computers; there's only so much you can learn, but to really know computers, there are topics that need drills and hard work. So, yes, I'm doing more than drills, but the drills are a necessary evil, and I'm finding this part really, really hard.
> 
> P.S. What's OU courses?


OU = Open University
Study Online at The Open University | The Open University

Drills a necessary evil? Maybe, but the putting it in to practice in as many ways as possible, is probably more important. That and the recycle, revise, redo mantra. Go back constantly to the stuff you've already studied to make sure it sticks. Another piece of advice from me would be don't study something in isolation ie don't study only grammar; look at vocabulary and pronunciation etc just as often.


----------



## AllHeart

baldilocks said:


> Once one has got the hang of the basics, the best idea, I find, is to read books in Spanish - proper books, books that make sense. Within a short while, one will usually find that the frequency at which one needs to look up words in a dictionary gets less and less. The first book I read right through in Spanish was about a rebel in the Civil War, the cousin of one of our neighbours, so it was meaningful. Because it was so far removed from "the cat sat on the mat" type of book, I had to use the dictionary continually at the beginning and quickly found that I was using it less and less and could eventually maybe go two, three or more pages without needing to look up a word.
> 
> I am currently planning this year's holiday and most of the websites I am looking at are in Spanish and occasionally I have to look up a word, but not often.


Yes, I'm reading too - mostly online. I read as much as I can in Spanish, then translate when needed. It's true that less and less looking up is required. It's a real confidence builder. 



Pesky Wesky said:


> OU = Open University
> Study Online at The Open University | The Open University
> 
> Drills a necessary evil? Maybe, but the putting it in to practice in as many ways as possible, is probably more important. That and the recycle, revise, redo mantra. Go back constantly to the stuff you've already studied to make sure it sticks. Another piece of advice from me would be don't study something in isolation ie don't study only grammar; look at vocabulary and pronunciation etc just as often.


Yes, that's what I'm saying - that I'm putting it into practice in writing and talking (and reading), but it's not enough to write and talk without studying. Know what I mean now? 

That's a good suggestion to look at other topics, and something I'm doing. Earlier in this thread, my UK Bestie pointed out the grammar tab on the website I'm using, and I do flick over to that once in a while for a refreshing breather.


----------



## AllHeart

Here are the other topics other than verb drills on the website I'm using. It's a gold mine and it's all free!

Pronunciation:
Spanish Pronunciation

Grammar:
Spanish Grammar

Vocabulary:
Spanish Vocabulary

Travel:
Spanish Travel Helper

Culture:
Spanish Cultural Notes


----------



## Alcalaina

AllHeart said:


> Here are the other topics other than verb drills on the website I'm using. It's a gold mine and it's all free!
> 
> Pronunciation:
> Spanish Pronunciation
> 
> Grammar:
> Spanish Grammar
> 
> Vocabulary:
> Spanish Vocabulary
> 
> Travel:
> Spanish Travel Helper
> 
> Culture:
> Spanish Cultural Notes


Good stuff but very American, especially the travel and culture. Have you looked at these? They are based in Madrid.

Notes in Spanish – Learn Spanish with Podcast Audio Conversation from Spain. | Learn Spanish with Spanish podcast audio. This is real, exciting conversation from Spain.


----------



## AllHeart

Alcalaina said:


> Good stuff but very American, especially the travel and culture. Have you looked at these? They are based in Madrid.
> 
> Notes in Spanish – Learn Spanish with Podcast Audio Conversation from Spain. | Learn Spanish with Spanish podcast audio. This is real, exciting conversation from Spain.


I really like those. Thank you! I'm listening to them as I'm doing my house chores. That got me to thinking to check Spotify for Spanish classes, and there are some there. So I'll listen to those too. Thanks for stretching my mind. 

Re South American Spanish.... Remember I'm not working, so my Spanish doesn't have to be perfect, which is a load off. I used to be very wary of what Spanish to learn, but I practised Spanish with South Americans from different countries for a few months before leaving Canada, and it helped tremendously. The biggest difference was our accents. But my accent is so engrained, that it didn't affect my pronunciation. We just teased each other a lot about our different accents. It was a real ribfest!


----------



## baldilocks

AllHeart said:


> I really like those. Thank you! I'm listening to them as I'm doing my house chores. That got me to thinking to check Spotify for Spanish classes, and there are some there. So I'll listen to those too. Thanks for stretching my mind.
> 
> Re South American Spanish.... Remember I'm not working, so my Spanish doesn't have to be perfect, which is a load off. I used to be very wary of what Spanish to learn, but I practised Spanish with South Americans from different countries for a few months before leaving Canada, and it helped tremendously. The biggest difference was our accents. But my accent is so engrained, that it didn't affect my pronunciation. We just teased each other a lot about our different accents. It was a real ribfest!


Another difficulty you will find re: European Spanish and Central/North/South American Spanish is different words for the same thing. One I fell foul of only yesterday: Tuna (S.Am) = higo chumbo or chumbo (European Spanish) = prickly pear, etc.


----------



## Helenameva

This is quite good for practising your listening skills www.newsinslowspanish.com


----------



## AllHeart

baldilocks said:


> Another difficulty you will find re: European Spanish and Central/North/South American Spanish is different words for the same thing. One I fell foul of only yesterday: Tuna (S.Am) = higo chumbo or chumbo (European Spanish) = prickly pear, etc.


Yes, there are actually different words. But I don't have to worry about getting it just right. Or maybe I should worry. But I'm retired, and don't have the umph or interest in worrying about perfecting my Spanish. I think this is the first time in my life that I've studied anything with this attitude. I like it. I like it a lot. I'm just happy to know how to say atún and pera. I'm not even going to check if I spelled pera properly. What a rebel I am to me. LOL!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

AllHeart said:


> Yes, that's what I'm saying - that I'm putting it into practice in writing and talking (and reading), but it's not enough to write and talk without studying. Know what I mean now?


I think so. 
Drilling is mechanical so you don't have to think.
In a conversation you have to react quickly to respond with something more or less
understandable, so more practice is needed at that than the mechanics.


----------



## Chopera

AllHeart said:


> Here are the other topics other than verb drills on the website I'm using. It's a gold mine and it's all free!
> 
> Pronunciation:
> Spanish Pronunciation
> 
> Grammar:
> Spanish Grammar
> 
> Vocabulary:
> Spanish Vocabulary
> 
> Travel:
> Spanish Travel Helper
> 
> Culture:
> Spanish Cultural Notes


I started learning Spanish with the verb drills, possibly because I wanted to learn something that had some kind of rule behind it rather than just having to memorize lots of vocabulary, but also I had previously found from learning French that once I got the verbs right, everything else seemed to fall into place. However I did spend too much time trying to get the verbs 100% right when, in hindsight, I should have moved on to something else. Really I should have done a few verb drills, then a bit of vocab, then some direct and indirect objects, then some more verb drills, then something else, etc. Just mixing it up. And I should have used different sources as well - for some reason learning the same thing on say 3 different websites, having it explained in 3 different ways, made everything stick much more than going over the same text endlessly.


----------



## Chopera

Alcalaina said:


> Good stuff but very American, especially the travel and culture. Have you looked at these? They are based in Madrid.
> 
> Notes in Spanish – Learn Spanish with Podcast Audio Conversation from Spain. | Learn Spanish with Spanish podcast audio. This is real, exciting conversation from Spain.


Ben used to run a very good forum that had some great language threads, which helped me improve a lot. Sadly he had to shut it down because he spent too much time dealing with spam, hackers, etc. That was the basis for my asking for a bit more language discussion on this forum - I find it really helps stimulate discussion about Spanish culture as well.


----------



## Horlics

OU is Open University. The reason I chose that method was because there are tests every few weeks and regular discussion classes, so it kept me motivated.



AllHeart said:


> I did IT work for my own computers and my friends, but that wasn't my speciality; transcription was my speciality. And my focus on computers is end user, never the designer. So my hat goes off to you.
> 
> Spanish is coming easily to me, since I grew up with my parents speaking it, and I spoke Spanish with my father for four years in my teens. I'm learning primarily by talking and writing in emails and texts to now. I've studied a little with my Spanish neighbour, who is really helpful. But I've come to a point where I have to study verbs. There's only so much you can pick up on by talking and writing. It's like learning computers; there's only so much you can learn, but to really know computers, there are topics that need drills and hard work. So, yes, I'm doing more than drills, but the drills are a necessary evil, and I'm finding this part really, really hard.
> 
> P.S. What's OU courses?


----------



## Horlics

Ah, I didn't realise you'd had so much exposure to Spanish in the past. I suppose you're just going to have to persevere with the drills until it eventually pays off.



AllHeart said:


> I did IT work for my own computers and my friends, but that wasn't my speciality; transcription was my speciality. And my focus on computers is end user, never the designer. So my hat goes off to you.
> 
> Spanish is coming easily to me, since I grew up with my parents speaking it, and I spoke Spanish with my father for four years in my teens. I'm learning primarily by talking and writing in emails and texts to now. I've studied a little with my Spanish neighbour, who is really helpful. But I've come to a point where I have to study verbs. There's only so much you can pick up on by talking and writing. It's like learning computers; there's only so much you can learn, but to really know computers, there are topics that need drills and hard work. So, yes, I'm doing more than drills, but the drills are a necessary evil, and I'm finding this part really, really hard.
> 
> P.S. What's OU courses?


----------



## AllHeart

Helenameva said:


> This is quite good for practising your listening skills News in Slow Spanish | News in Spanish for Language Learning


Hi UK Bestie!  Thank you for this. I'd rather not have to mix the news with learning Spanish. Learning Spanish is tough enough to digest. 



Pesky Wesky said:


> I think so.
> Drilling is mechanical so you don't have to think.
> In a conversation you have to react quickly to respond with something more or less
> understandable, so more practice is needed at that than the mechanics.


You're an English teacher and you can't understand the need for studying verbs? I think you're joking with me, right?


----------



## AllHeart

Chopera said:


> I started learning Spanish with the verb drills, possibly because I wanted to learn something that had some kind of rule behind it rather than just having to memorize lots of vocabulary, but also I had previously found from learning French that once I got the verbs right, everything else seemed to fall into place. However I did spend too much time trying to get the verbs 100% right when, in hindsight, I should have moved on to something else. Really I should have done a few verb drills, then a bit of vocab, then some direct and indirect objects, then some more verb drills, then something else, etc. Just mixing it up. And I should have used different sources as well - for some reason learning the same thing on say 3 different websites, having it explained in 3 different ways, made everything stick much more than going over the same text endlessly.


Just in the short time I've been studying verbs, it's amazing how many errors I've become aware of that I do! I like structure too. I find structure simplifies things. I really enjoy bouncing around different learning tools too. Of course this is the very best way to be learning - while immersed in Spain - not only because it's awesome that I'm in Spain, but I'm practicing what I learn every day. Spanish lessons aren't just theory when you're living in Spain. 



Chopera said:


> Ben used to run a very good forum that had some great language threads, which helped me improve a lot. Sadly he had to shut it down because he spent too much time dealing with spam, hackers, etc. That was the basis for my asking for a bit more language discussion on this forum - I find it really helps stimulate discussion about Spanish culture as well.


I'm thoroughly enjoying these audios. I especially like the interaction between the two. I love how they flirt with each other; it's really sweet! They're really thorough and slow, which I like. And their topics are practical, yet they somehow make the topics fun to listen to.


----------



## AllHeart

Horlics said:


> OU is Open University. The reason I chose that method was because there are tests every few weeks and regular discussion classes, so it kept me motivated.


Open University is something similar to what I did in Canada after my studies, and I really like doing that too. I took online university courses for certificates from my local university, like website design, Photoshop and technical writing. I'm one of those people who loves learning. 



Horlics said:


> Ah, I didn't realise you'd had so much exposure to Spanish in the past. I suppose you're just going to have to persevere with the drills until it eventually pays off.


I also took a first-year university course in Spanish. Then there were my travels to South America and the Caribbean, when I spoke Spanish. I have a knack for languages, which I feel really fortunate for. Yes, the studies are already paying off. That helps me persevere - to have such quick results. I have a lot, a lot, a lot to learn, and I don't expect to get fluent any time soon. My goal is just to continually improve, poco a poco.


----------



## Chopera

I have found https://www.memrise.com/ to be a great tool for learning languages - especially the app that you can download.

I haven't tried it for Spanish yet (I used it for Chinese) but they have a very good system that is dersigned to make things stick. They give you some words, along with visual memory aids, and then the app tests you on them after various intervals. It also spots the words you are struggling with and tests you on them again. You can also keep track of how much you are learning.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

AllHeart said:


> You're an English teacher and you can't understand the need for studying verbs? I think you're joking with me, right?


Wow, talk about a misquote!
I said I didn't think it was necessary to learn an excessive amount of material through drills. I did not say it wasn't necessary to learn verbs!
Drilling is a repeating and substituting used inmany methods of language learning, recently being used in the Vaughan system as if it was a cutting edge invention by Mr. Vaughan himself.
It goes something like this between teacher student
verb to be
I
I am
You
You are
he
He is
She
She is
It 
It is
Ok, you might learn the verb, but do you learn to use it in a conversation - no.

After so many years in teaching I tend to think that anything can be useful and a variety of methods should be used by student and teacher to find out what works for each individual, but I can tell you that drilling on its own does not = learning a language


----------



## AllHeart

Chopera said:


> I have found https://www.memrise.com/ to be a great tool for learning languages - especially the app that you can download.
> 
> I haven't tried it for Spanish yet (I used it for Chinese) but they have a very good system that is dersigned to make things stick. They give you some words, along with visual memory aids, and then the app tests you on them after various intervals. It also spots the words you are struggling with and tests you on them again. You can also keep track of how much you are learning.


You also learned Chinese?! Oh my goodness.  I've got a lot on the go right now with tools, and have that saved to faves for later. Perhaps someone else reading this thread might like to use that now, though. Thank you.



Pesky Wesky said:


> Wow, talk about a misquote!
> I said I didn't think it was necessary to learn an excessive amount of material through drills. I did not say it wasn't necessary to learn verbs!
> Drilling is a repeating and substituting used inmany methods of language learning, recently being used in the Vaughan system as if it was a cutting edge invention by Mr. Vaughan himself.
> It goes something like this between teacher student
> verb to be
> I
> I am
> You
> You are
> he
> He is
> She
> She is
> It
> It is
> Ok, you might learn the verb, but do you learn to use it in a conversation - no.
> 
> After so many years in teaching I tend to think that anything can be useful and a variety of methods should be used by student and teacher to find out what works for each individual, but I can tell you that drilling on its own does not = learning a language


I think you and I keep saying the same thing, agreeing with each other, but you think I'm disagreeing with you somehow. I just don't understand what you're asking clarification on. :confused2: I'l try again... I'm learning how to conjugate verbs because I don't know how to conjugate verbs. I am not going to learn how to conjugate verbs simply by talking, writing or reading. I need to study them to know them, so that I can use them properly for talking, writing and reading. I don't see where there is any disagreement here or why this needs clarification in any way. This is normal behaviour - possibly the only normal part of me.


----------



## Chopera

AllHeart said:


> You also learned Chinese?! Oh my goodness.  I've got a lot on the go right now with tools, and have that saved to faves for later. Perhaps someone else reading this thread might like to use that now, though. Thank you.
> 
> ...


I've used memrise for learning Mandarin but I didn't wish to imply that I've actually learnt that language. I'm 99% sure I never will, unless I somehow end up living there. However my kids are doing Chinese lessons and I wanted to learn a bit as well in order to make it more of a "family activity". I also wanted to see for myself how difficult Mandarin is, and make sure I wasn't setting them an impossible task in trying to get them to learn Mandarin. Memrise turned out to be especially helpful for learning the characters.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

AllHeart said:


> You also learned Chinese?! Oh my goodness.  I've got a lot on the go right now with tools, and have that saved to faves for later. Perhaps someone else reading this thread might like to use that now, though. Thank you.
> 
> 
> 
> I think you and I keep saying the same thing, agreeing with each other, but you think I'm disagreeing with you somehow. I just don't understand what you're asking clarification on. :confused2: I'l try again... I'm learning how to conjugate verbs because I don't know how to conjugate verbs. I am not going to learn how to conjugate verbs simply by talking, writing or reading. I need to study them to know them, so that I can use them properly for talking, writing and reading. I don't see where there is any disagreement here or why this needs clarification in any way. This is normal behaviour - possibly the only normal part of me.


Well AH you've got me completely  as well because I've not asked for any clarification or justification for what you're doing, at any time.
As I said, I've come to the conclusion that all types of learning can be valid in some way to some people so if you're happy with it off you go!
I don't think we're saying the same thing, but it's of no matter. As I said, if you think you're learning then it can only be good! No clarification necessary
Good luck


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Chopera said:


> I've used memrise for learning Mandarin but I didn't wish to imply that I've actually learnt that language. I'm 99% sure I never will, unless I somehow end up living there. However my kids are doing Chinese lessons and I wanted to learn a bit as well in order to make it more of a "family activity". I also wanted to see for myself how difficult Mandarin is, and make sure I wasn't setting them an impossible task in trying to get them to learn Mandarin. Memrise turned out to be especially helpful for learning the characters.


I dipped into memrise, not for learning languages, and found it good too. At least in the beginning


----------



## AllHeart

Chopera said:


> I've used memrise for learning Mandarin but I didn't wish to imply that I've actually learnt that language. I'm 99% sure I never will, unless I somehow end up living there. However my kids are doing Chinese lessons and I wanted to learn a bit as well in order to make it more of a "family activity". I also wanted to see for myself how difficult Mandarin is, and make sure I wasn't setting them an impossible task in trying to get them to learn Mandarin. Memrise turned out to be especially helpful for learning the characters.


That does sound like fun family activity. Even to have learned a little is impressive to me, especially when you're doing it with your kids. 



Pesky Wesky said:


> Well AH you've got me completely  as well because I've not asked for any clarification or justification for what you're doing, at any time.
> As I said, I've come to the conclusion that all types of learning can be valid in some way to some people so if you're happy with it off you go!
> I don't think we're saying the same thing, but it's of no matter. As I said, if you think you're learning then it can only be good! No clarification necessary
> Good luck


I'm totally confused about our conversation too. I didn't mean to come off as snarky, but on reading it, it can be interpreted as snarky. Honestly I didn't mean to be. But I have no idea what we're saying differently. :confused2: Yes, perhaps it's best to just let it go. So I'll just let it go, but with a kiss. :kiss:


----------



## Pesky Wesky

AllHeart said:


> I'm totally confused about our conversation too. I didn't mean to come off as snarky, but on reading it, it can be interpreted as snarky. Honestly I didn't mean to be. But I have no idea what we're saying differently. :confused2: Yes, perhaps it's best to just let it go. So I'll just let it go, but with a kiss. :kiss:


OK!


----------



## AllHeart

I'm wondering if someone can tell me if the verb tenses that I'm in the process of studying are enough to get me by. I'm just looking for an end in sight. I know there are lots more than are listed here, but hope this is enough, #1-28 on the left column: Spanish Verb Conjugation Drills

:fingerscrossed:


----------



## Alcalaina

AllHeart said:


> I'm wondering if someone can tell me if the verb tenses that I'm in the process of studying are enough to get me by. I'm just looking for an end in sight. I know there are lots more than are listed here, but hope this is enough, #1-28 on the left column: Spanish Verb Conjugation Drills
> 
> :fingerscrossed:


Ah how well I remember that page! I used to do them in my lunch break when I was working in an office.

1-28 is the comprehensive list. There are no more.

Most learners don't bother with the subjunctive, which is a "mood" rather than a tense. I wouldn't even look at that section until you've become familiar with the rest. 

If you just want to "get by" you can probably do so with just the present, future and preterite. Though as mentioned earlier, many learners incorrectly use the perfect for everything that happened in the past, because it's easier, and use "_voy a_" for the future.

On a related matter, have you looked at WordReference.com? It is more than an online dictionary, as there are helpful discussions about usage and you can post your own question. It also tells you whether a word is used differently in Europe and the Americas (e.g. _contador_) and lists all the phrases a word is used in.


----------



## Chopera

AllHeart said:


> I'm wondering if someone can tell me if the verb tenses that I'm in the process of studying are enough to get me by. I'm just looking for an end in sight. I know there are lots more than are listed here, but hope this is enough, #1-28 on the left column: Spanish Verb Conjugation Drills
> 
> :fingerscrossed:


Following on from what Alcalaina said - I wouldn't bother trying to learn subjunctive conjugations until you've learnt when to use the subjunctive. Concentrate on the preterite, imperfect, present, future and present perfect for now. You can come back to the other stuff later on.

More generally, it's best not to look for an "end in sight" because there isn't one  It still sounds like you're in the mindset of trying to learn one thing completely, then moving on to the learn the next thing, etc, etc, and then when you've learnt it all you'll "know Spanish". That linear approach tends to be slow and tiresome. It's much better to learn different things in parallel, revisiting different areas from time to time, so you build up an idea of how it all fits together while you are learning.


----------



## kalohi

Chopera said:


> Following on from what Alcalaina said - I wouldn't bother trying to learn subjunctive conjugations until you've learnt when to use the subjunctive. Concentrate on the preterite, imperfect, present, future and present perfect for now. You can come back to the other stuff later on.
> 
> More generally, it's best not to look for an "end in sight" because there isn't one  It still sounds like you're in the mindset of trying to learn one thing completely, then moving on to the learn the next thing, etc, etc, and then when you've learnt it all you'll "know Spanish". That linear approach tends to be slow and tiresome. *It's much better to learn different things in parallel, revisiting different areas from time to time, so you build up an idea of how it all fits together while you are learning.*


I totally agree with this. I've been learning Spanish for 40 years and I'm still learning. For that matter, I'm still learning English.  

IMO, to "get by" you really only need past, present and future. That means preterite and imperfect, present simple and present continuous, and future. And to talk about the future you can get by with the "going to" future - eg 'I'm going to eat'/'Voy a comer' - which is formed using a present tense so you don't even have to learn another tense to use it. That means you need only 4 tenses and you can get by. Now doesn't that sound much more attainable? Then you can start adding in the other tenses and working on the nuances of meaning between them. In the meantime, however, you will still be effectively communicating using those 4 tenses, even if you won't be totally correct in how you use them.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

I think I've said this before, but I love linguee, especially for translating
Linguee | Diccionario espa?ol-ingl?s, entre otros idiomas


----------



## AllHeart

Alcalaina said:


> Ah how well I remember that page! I used to do them in my lunch break when I was working in an office.


Really?! I take that as a recommendation to use this. I really like how they teach so clearly and concisely. I also really like the tests because they use full sentences. Amazing this is free!



Alcalaina said:


> 1-28 is the comprehensive list. There are no more.


Oh, I didn't know that. Woot! The mountain is smaller now. 




Alcalaina said:


> Most learners don't bother with the subjunctive, which is a "mood" rather than a tense. I wouldn't even look at that section until you've become familiar with the rest.
> 
> If you just want to "get by" you can probably do so with just the present, future and preterite. Though as mentioned earlier, many learners incorrectly use the perfect for everything that happened in the past, because it's easier, and use "_voy a_" for the future.


Thank you for explaining that so well. Three tenses is much more doable.



Alcalaina said:


> On a related matter, have you looked at WordReference.com? It is more than an online dictionary, as there are helpful discussions about usage and you can post your own question. It also tells you whether a word is used differently in Europe and the Americas (e.g. _contador_) and lists all the phrases a word is used in.


Yes, I've been looking at that. That was recommended to me by many on the forum as a phone app. But I couldn't load apps on my phone. But my phone just konked out on me, so today I pick up my new phone, and I'll load that app. I've used it on my laptop and have been looking at their verb conjugator here: Conjugación de amar - WordReference.com

I didn't notice their discussion forum. Thanks for pointing that out. I see it now here: WordReference Forums


----------



## AllHeart

Chopera said:


> Following on from what Alcalaina said - I wouldn't bother trying to learn subjunctive conjugations until you've learnt when to use the subjunctive. Concentrate on the preterite, imperfect, present, future and present perfect for now. You can come back to the other stuff later on.
> 
> More generally, it's best not to look for an "end in sight" because there isn't one  It still sounds like you're in the mindset of trying to learn one thing completely, then moving on to the learn the next thing, etc, etc, and then when you've learnt it all you'll "know Spanish". That linear approach tends to be slow and tiresome. It's much better to learn different things in parallel, revisiting different areas from time to time, so you build up an idea of how it all fits together while you are learning.


No, that's not my mindset at all. Thanks for saying it sounds like that's my mindset instead of saying it is. My mindset is that I will never live long enough to know Spanish, but I want to learn as much as possible. The end in sight that I'm looking for right now to get by, as I say, is that I can conjugate enough verbs to not be a total idiot. I'm no stranger to learning, and I know that there is a learning curve in all learning. I'm at the very beginning of the learning curve. Right now I am illiterate, meaning I can't read or write, and mute, meaning I can't carry on an in depth conversation in Spanish. So I'm just reaching out for some guidance as to where to start climbing this mountain. It's particularly difficult since in English I could read and write whatever I wanted to, and I could talk about whatever I wanted to. Language was in fact my career. So it's a huge fall.


----------



## AllHeart

kalohi said:


> I totally agree with this. I've been learning Spanish for 40 years and I'm still learning. For that matter, I'm still learning English.
> 
> IMO, to "get by" you really only need past, present and future. That means preterite and imperfect, present simple and present continuous, and future. And to talk about the future you can get by with the "going to" future - eg 'I'm going to eat'/'Voy a comer' - which is formed using a present tense so you don't even have to learn another tense to use it. That means you need only 4 tenses and you can get by. Now doesn't that sound much more attainable? Then you can start adding in the other tenses and working on the nuances of meaning between them. In the meantime, however, you will still be effectively communicating using those 4 tenses, even if you won't be totally correct in how you use them.


I always say that too - that I'm still learning English. So even if I lived another 50 years, I'll never know Spanish thoroughly. 

That's exactly it in plain English what I'm looking for - how to use past, present and future. So could you please explain what tenses you listed refer to what? I don't even know that!


----------



## AllHeart

Pesky Wesky said:


> I think I've said this before, but I love linguee, especially for translating
> Linguee | Diccionario espa?ol-ingl?s, entre otros idiomas


I loooove Linguee too. You introduced me to that a long time ago, and it immediately became my first choice in defining words and phrases. I wish they had an app for that, but at least I can use it on my phone browser.


----------



## AllHeart

I'm trying to figure out the general consensus here from your feedback as to where to start in order to get by. So I'm thinking I should do Present #1-12, followed by Preterite (a form of the past tense) #13-16, followed by Future #24. Is that a good game plan? Here's the site again: Spanish Verb Conjugation Drills


----------



## xabiaxica

AllHeart said:


> I'm trying to figure out the general consensus here from your feedback as to where to start in order to get by. So I'm thinking I should do Present #1-12, followed by Preterite (a form of the past tense) #13-16, followed by Future #24. Is that a good game plan? Here's the site again: Spanish Verb Conjugation Drills


I teach tenses in this order

Present - I eat
Present continuous - I am eating
IR+a+verb - I am going to eat
*Present perfect - I have eaten
*Preterite/simple past - I ate (this morning)
*Imperfect - I ate (as a habit in the past) / used to eat
Future - I will eat
Conditional - I would eat 


* I teach these alongside each other in order to aid understanding of the subtle differences of use in context 

with those you can more than 'get by'

after that we're more into 'read a book' territory as I add the other tenses 

learning Spanish isn't all about learning tenses though - what about the use of _gustar _& similar verbs? 

gender & possessives?

direct & indirect object pronouns?


----------



## AllHeart

xabiachica said:


> I teach tenses in this order
> 
> Present - I eat
> Present continuous - I am eating
> IR+a+verb - I am going to eat
> *Present perfect - I have eaten
> *Preterite/simple past - I ate (this morning)
> *Imperfect - I ate (as a habit in the past) / used to eat
> Future - I will eat
> Conditional - I would eat
> 
> 
> * I teach these alongside each other in order to aid understanding of the subtle differences of use in context
> 
> with those you can more than 'get by'
> 
> after that we're more into 'read a book' territory as I add the other tenses
> 
> learning Spanish isn't all about learning tenses though - what about the use of _gustar _& similar verbs?
> 
> gender & possessives?
> 
> direct & indirect object pronouns?


Xabiachica, I'm getting frustrated in trying to explain what I'm asking for, as it seems you're misunderstanding what I'm asking. Of course I'm not expecting to learn Spanish by conjugating in three verb tenses. Sometimes I think I come across on this forum as really, really stupid. But I'm not. 

So I'll just drop my question and go about studying those three verb tenses for now, knowing this is just a mere speck of knowledge in the body of knowledge of an entire language.


----------



## xabiaxica

AllHeart said:


> Xabiachica, I'm getting frustrated in trying to explain what I'm asking for, as it seems you're misunderstanding what I'm asking. Of course I'm not expecting to learn Spanish by conjugating in three verb tenses. Sometimes I think I come across on this forum as really, really stupid. But I'm not.
> 
> So I'll just drop my question and go about studying those three verb tenses for now, knowing this is just a mere speck of knowledge in the body of knowledge of an entire language.


you asked which tenses to concentrate on - that's what I told you & the order in which I teach them - which is obviously the order I recommend  

what did I misunderstand?


----------



## AllHeart

xabiachica said:


> you asked which tenses to concentrate on - that's what I told you & the order in which I teach them - which is obviously the order I recommend
> 
> what did I misunderstand?


That's a whole lot to learn right now, and you covered most of the verb tenses. I'm just asking where to start right now. One baby step is what I need right now, and I'm asking for that baby step to be defined. So I'm asking if the numbers on the website I gave are a good start. In learning, you need to start somewhere. 

About studying the other things you mention... I'm not asking about the other things right now, but I know I have to study those too. I know have a ton to study!


----------



## mrypg9

I taught French and German for decades as well as translating/interpreting. I'm not qualified as a teacher of young children but I had a year or two of an assignment teaching French to four and five year olds. The lesson was conducted entirely in French with plenty of mime and weird but necessary facial expressions.
In many ways, it was the easiest job I had. The children very quickly became fluent. Of course they couldn't discuss the politics of the Eurozone - few would want to - but their language was transactional, in that they were able to use it to satisfy demand, express simple feelings and 'chat' with peers.
One thing that didn't occur and which always occurs with adults was questions:' why is this like this? and so on. They listened, imitated, repeated,, found out by trial and error and when 'correct' got reinforcement and confidence.
Current methods of MFL teaching tend to follow the paths and patterns by which we acquire our mother tongue. We learn by listening and imitating. First we listen, then we speak, then we read and lastly we write. Just as when we were young. Our parents didn't sit down and decline verbs with us...they of course corrected us if we said, for example, 'I see you yesterday' instead of 'I saw'. But in fact, the grammar error was no barrier to communication or comprehension.
When I taught people with PhDs at the Czech Statistical Institute my main task was to 'unlock' them. They had passed the highest grade exams, all written, but could not speak the language. I sympathised as I had learnt French for eight years and also passed exams but didn't speak French until I spent time in France.
Many of my friends speak Spanish fairly well but are at a loss when it comes to understanding what is said to them. I would say I have at best 80% total comprehension of what I hear and fill in the rest according to context.
I'm learning by putting myself in a totally Spanish speaking environment as much as possible, listening to Spanish tv and radio. This morning I went to our local consultorio and got chatting to a Spanish woman, as you do. Outcome was that we swapped phone numbers and are to meet up as she is in the same position as me with her English. Tomorrow I'm meeting another friend I met in the Consultorio a couple of years ago. We'll speak for a while in Spanish, then English.
When I was teaching I saw so many students from Poland, Romania, Hungary and other countries turn up without knowing a word of English. Within a few months they were fluent enough for everyday needs. Within a year they were extremely proficient.
This reinforces my belief that language is 'caught' as well as taught, perhaps especially so 'caught'. More formal instruction is necessary to tighten up the bolts, as it were, to correct and polish. But very often the biggest inhibition is the fear of 'being wrong'.
The most ungrammatical sentence in Spanish is valid if people understand what you want and you get it.
It can't be said too often that language, any language, is a tool, like a chisel or hammer. It's not like one of those cross-stitch templates where everything has to go in the right place.
I speak Spanish fluently...ad ungrammatically. But people understand me. Sometimes, when I make a particularly gross mistake, they put me right.
And I remember...


----------



## mrypg9

AllHeart said:


> That's a whole lot to learn right now, and you covered most of the verb tenses. I'm just asking where to start right now. One baby step is what I need right now, and I'm asking for that baby step to be defined. So I'm asking if the numbers on the website I gave are a good start. In learning, you need to start somewhere.
> 
> About studying the other things you mention... I'm not asking about the other things right now, but I know I have to study those too. I know have a ton to study!


I would study the language of 'themes' rather than learning to conjugate verbs and so on.
Pick a topic, like yourself and your family background, your interests and so on.
Learn how to say things like 'My name is..', I'm x years old, I'm from x in Canada, it's a big/small town, stuff like that. Bring in tenses where appropriate -'I arrived in Spain on...'.
Make a list of useful nouns and phrases, family names like aunt, cousin etc. plus a few suitable adjectives.
You can get all these phrases from a good translator on the web, like Spanish Dictionary.
Then call up a Spanish friend for coffee and explain you could use some help. Tell him/her you want to talk family/personal stuff and it would be good if they could join in with you.
Build up like that using different topics. Then you'll find that using the correct tense comes naturally and if you don't use the correct one it's not the end of the world.
That, more or less is how I learnt not only Spanish but Polish and Czech whch are very complicated Slavonic languages, the grammar of which can do your head in.
I do not speak these last two languages well but I can get what I want, not get lost, chat with friends...the basics even if very ungrammatical.


----------



## AllHeart

Perhaps I can put it this way....

Did I ever at any point in this thread - or anywhere else in any place on this forum - say that the only way I am learning Spanish is by studying this one site for verb tenses? Argh! 

I give up. I'm spending sooooo much energy in trying to explain myself. And I'm speaking plain English! Never mind.


----------



## kalohi

AllHeart said:


> That's exactly it in plain English what I'm looking for - how to use past, present and future. So could you please explain what tenses you listed refer to what? I don't even know that!





AllHeart said:


> I'm trying to figure out the general consensus here from your feedback as to where to start in order to get by. So I'm thinking I should do Present #1-12, followed by Preterite (a form of the past tense) #13-16, followed by Future #24. Is that a good game plan? Here's the site again: Spanish Verb Conjugation Drills


You have partially answered your own question. The present tense (ie present indicative tense) is covered in #1-12. What I think you should study next and which isn't included on that numbered list is the present continous tense (also called the present progressive). But I found it here. Next up I would study talking about the future using _ir + a_ . That is covered here. Don't bother with Future #24 on your list yet, because that's a future that is used less frequently than the _ir + a_ future. Then after that you can move on to the past. There are two past tenses you should study and learn to differentiate, the preterite (#13-16) and the imperfect (#17). 

So to sum up:
1. present #1-12
2. present progressive
3. future with _ir + a_
4. past, part one: preterite #13-16
5. past, part two: imperfect #17

Hope that helps clear things up!


----------



## xabiaxica

AllHeart said:


> Perhaps I can put it this way....
> 
> Did I ever at any point in this thread - or anywhere else in any place on this forum - say that the only way I am learning Spanish is by studying this one site for verb tenses? Argh!
> 
> I give up. I'm spending sooooo much energy in trying to explain myself. And I'm speaking plain English! Never mind.


you seem to forget that others who are learning Spanish are also reading this thread & will do so for perhaps years to come


hence my additional advice - it isn't only for *you
*


----------



## xabiaxica

AllHeart said:


> That's a whole lot to learn right now, and you covered most of the verb tenses. I'm just asking where to start right now. One baby step is what I need right now, and I'm asking for that baby step to be defined. So I'm asking if the numbers on the website I gave are a good start. In learning, you need to start somewhere.
> 
> About studying the other things you mention... I'm not asking about the other things right now, but I know I have to study those too. I know have a ton to study!


you can't learn it all at once - if you try to you'll give up - you need to become comfortable with one tense, before moving on to the next - not with _every _verb, of course, but with those which you use frequently, gradually adding more as you become more confident


----------



## xabiaxica

mrypg9 said:


> I would study the language of 'themes' rather than learning to conjugate verbs and so on.
> Pick a topic, like yourself and your family background, your interests and so on.
> Learn how to say things like 'My name is..', I'm x years old, I'm from x in Canada, it's a big/small town, stuff like that. Bring in tenses where appropriate -'I arrived in Spain on...'.
> .


YES!!

that's exactly how I wrote my coursebook

different themes, gradually introducing different tenses & grammar points


----------



## AllHeart

xabiachica said:


> you seem to forget that others who are learning Spanish are also reading this thread & will do so for perhaps years to come
> 
> 
> hence my additional advice - it isn't only for *you
> *


I was quoted by Mary in her response. That is what I was referring to in my comment that you quote. 

When you made your answer, you quoted me Thus I responded to you. 

I know this thread is not just about me. Geez! But if someone quotes me, I answer.


----------



## AllHeart

xabiachica said:


> you can't learn it all at once - if you try to you'll give up - you need to become comfortable with one tense, before moving on to the next - not with _every _verb, of course, but with those which you use frequently, gradually adding more as you become more confident


That's EXACTLY what I'm trying to say!


----------



## AllHeart

kalohi said:


> You have partially answered your own question. The present tense (ie present indicative tense) is covered in #1-12. What I think you should study next and which isn't included on that numbered list is the present continous tense (also called the present progressive). But I found it here. Next up I would study talking about the future using _ir + a_ . That is covered here. Don't bother with Future #24 on your list yet, because that's a future that is used less frequently than the _ir + a_ future. Then after that you can move on to the past. There are two past tenses you should study and learn to differentiate, the preterite (#13-16) and the imperfect (#17).
> 
> So to sum up:
> 1. present #1-12
> 2. present progressive
> 3. future with _ir + a_
> 4. past, part one: preterite #13-16
> 5. past, part two: imperfect #17
> 
> Hope that helps clear things up!


I'm going to stop asking now. This is the first answer I receive that points to the actual website I'm using, and I like it a lot! So I'm going to use this as my study guide. Thank you! I'm on #9, having put this aside for almost two weeks due to tax madness. Now this is rip-roaring fun in comparison!


----------



## mrypg9

AllHeart said:


> Perhaps I can put it this way....
> 
> Did I ever at any point in this thread - or anywhere else in any place on this forum - say that the only way I am learning Spanish is by studying this one site for verb tenses? Argh!
> 
> I give up. I'm spending sooooo much energy in trying to explain myself. And I'm speaking plain English! Never mind.[/QUOTE
> 
> And did I say that the only way you are learning is by studying one site for verb tenses??
> Like others, I was trying to be helpful and thinking back over decades of teaching learners of all ages to learn French or German.
> Tranquilo ......


----------



## mrypg9

xabiachica said:


> YES!!
> 
> that's exactly how I wrote my coursebook
> 
> different themes, gradually introducing different tenses & grammar points


It's the best and surest way. You get a quick fix on language you can actually use and that's a real confidence builder.
I've just come back from a Susana Diez campaign rally in Marbella. What an atmosphere! Much chanting, clapping, flag- waving.
To my astonishment I found I could understand almost 90% of the platform speakers.
I thought about why that should be and came to the conclusion that it was because I was used to making and listening to those kinds of speeches in the UK and that I was doing a kind of subliminal translation.
The rally was like one of those religious revival meeting!


----------



## AllHeart

mrypg9 said:


> AllHeart said:
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps I can put it this way....
> 
> Did I ever at any point in this thread - or anywhere else in any place on this forum - say that the only way I am learning Spanish is by studying this one site for verb tenses? Argh!
> 
> I give up. I'm spending sooooo much energy in trying to explain myself. And I'm speaking plain English! Never mind.
> 
> 
> 
> And did I say that the only way you are learning is by studying one site for verb tenses??
> Like others, I was trying to be helpful and thinking back over decades of teaching learners of all ages to learn French or German.
> Tranquilo ......
Click to expand...

I was asking about what baby step to start with the verb conjugations on the website, and you gave an answer of something else to do. So I took it as telling me not to study the verbs. What you describe is something that I started a long time ago, and I have a running list of English-Spanish translation of words, phrases and sentences in a spreadsheet - exactly as you describe. 

The theme of moving to a new country is miscommunication because everything is different. Miscommunication is especially profound and frequent when that new country is in a new language. So I'm particularly frustrated when it comes to the theme of miscommunication in this thread, because I'm bombarded with miscommunication on a daily basis off the computer. So I'm truly sorry if it seems that I overreacted, but perhaps in the context of my life you can understand why it's not overreacting in the grand scheme of my life. 

Thank you for your stories and suggestions. You know I love your stories. I forgot to thank you for them, as I was focused on getting an answer to my question. So thank you. :kiss:


----------



## mrypg9

AllHeart said:


> I was asking about what baby step to start with the verb conjugations on the website, and you gave an answer of something else to do. So I took it as telling me not to study the verbs. What you describe is something that I started a long time ago, and I have a running list of English-Spanish translation of words, phrases and sentences in a spreadsheet - exactly as you describe.
> 
> The theme of moving to a new country is miscommunication because everything is different. Miscommunication is especially profound and frequent when that new country is in a new language. So I'm particularly frustrated when it comes to the theme of miscommunication in this thread, because I'm bombarded with miscommunication on a daily basis off the computer. So I'm truly sorry if it seems that I overreacted, but perhaps in the context of my life you can understand why it's not overreacting in the grand scheme of my life.
> 
> Thank you for your stories and suggestions. You know I love your stories. I forgot to thank you for them, as I was focused on getting an answer to my question. So thank you. :kiss:


Thank you 
Considering you have been such a short time here you're doing OK. It's a big deal moving countries, you've moved continents, something I knew I would find difficult to handle, hence the decision to sell up in Canada and stick to familiar old Europe.
I think one of the most appealing qualities here is the 'nada pasa' attitude to many things in life. I took a while to get used to it but it's a good way to be. Let life flow over and around you.
You will find yourself fluent enough in Spanish sooner than you imagine when struggling with tenses. It kind of seeps into you...


----------



## AllHeart

mrypg9 said:


> Thank you
> Considering you have been such a short time here you're doing OK. It's a big deal moving countries, you've moved continents, something I knew I would find difficult to handle, hence the decision to sell up in Canada and stick to familiar old Europe.
> I think one of the most appealing qualities here is the 'nada pasa' attitude to many things in life. I took a while to get used to it but it's a good way to be. Let life flow over and around you.
> You will find yourself fluent enough in Spanish sooner than you imagine when struggling with tenses. It kind of seeps into you...


Yes, it's a big deal indeed. Living in Canada isn't a choice because of how I get treated as a psychiatric patient; I'm simply not safe there. I actually want the culture shock because it's helping me forget those tortures by creating new connections in myself to the world around me. It's hard to describe.

I'm already surprised with how much Spanish I know with barely any studying, just by the means of how you say - seeping into me by throwing myself in there and doing. The relaxed attitude you speak of certainly helps in letting the information seep in, as I'm less anxious and therefore more receptive to learning. I feel truly blessed to have a knack for languages, more so than ever. But it's still a huge struggle. Yesterday was a particularly difficult day with grocery shopping, setting up a contract for my new phone and working on the Modelo 720. So yesterday's confusion in the thread struck me really hard. Living in Spain is like, oh yeah, you thought life was complicated? Well, how about doing absolutely everything completely differently and in another language? Now how's that for complicated?!


----------



## mrypg9

AllHeart said:


> Yes, it's a big deal indeed. Living in Canada isn't a choice because of how I get treated as a psychiatric patient; I'm simply not safe there. I actually want the culture shock because it's helping me forget those tortures by creating new connections in myself to the world around me. It's hard to describe.
> 
> I'm already surprised with how much Spanish I know with barely any studying, just by the means of how you say - seeping into me by throwing myself in there and doing. The relaxed attitude you speak of certainly helps in letting the information seep in, as I'm less anxious and therefore more receptive to learning. I feel truly blessed to have a knack for languages, more so than ever. But it's still a huge struggle. Yesterday was a particularly difficult day with grocery shopping, setting up a contract for my new phone and working on the Modelo 720. So yesterday's confusion in the thread struck me really hard. Living in Spain is like, oh yeah, you thought life was complicated? Well, how about doing absolutely everything completely differently and in another language? Now how's that for complicated?!


I know just how you feel! I've found learning languages fairly easy and it was my job, teaching and working as an interpreter/translator. But the two languages I taught, French and German, were 'familiar' languages in that everyone is taught French at school in the UK(usually badly, which tends to put people off for life) and German is like English one of the Germanic family of languages and has very many similarities, especially if you've had training in philology.
Once you've seriously studied French, a Romance language, you have the framework for other Romance languages such as Italian and Spanish. I also did eight years of Latin at school plus Ancient Greek, which I've never used since sitting the exam!
But when we went to live in the Czech Republic it was a whole new ball game.
Czech, like Polish and Russian, as you know is a Slavonic language and extremely complicated both with regards to pronunciation - try saying 'pryszcz' or 'szczoteczka' and also in that both nouns and verbs decline and conjugate.
First I learnt Polish which made learning Czech more difficult as what sounds and is spelled like the same words often have different meanings, as I found when I informed my friend's husband's secretary that I was screwing Mr. Bolonsky when I meant to say I was looking for him....
I didn't take formal lessons - I'm unteachable - but just picked up enough, over time, to get by in most situations although no way could I have held a deep conversation by the time I left. However....if I were still there I think I would be able to do that. It's kind of inevitable when you are surrounded by native speakers.
Relax and let it happen to you. Laugh at your mistakes -I'm sure you won't make as many as I have done - I caused suppressed titters when speaking at a meeting referring to European penises when I wanted to say European laws. It's one way of learning...


----------



## AllHeart

mrypg9 said:


> I know just how you feel! I've found learning languages fairly easy and it was my job, teaching and working as an interpreter/translator. But the two languages I taught, French and German, were 'familiar' languages in that everyone is taught French at school in the UK(usually badly, which tends to put people off for life) and German is like English one of the Germanic family of languages and has very many similarities, especially if you've had training in philology.
> Once you've seriously studied French, a Romance language, you have the framework for other Romance languages such as Italian and Spanish. I also did eight years of Latin at school plus Ancient Greek, which I've never used since sitting the exam!
> But when we went to live in the Czech Republic it was a whole new ball game.
> Czech, like Polish and Russian, as you know is a Slavonic language and extremely complicated both with regards to pronunciation - try saying 'pryszcz' or 'szczoteczka' and also in that both nouns and verbs decline and conjugate.
> First I learnt Polish which made learning Czech more difficult as what sounds and is spelled like the same words often have different meanings, as I found when I informed my friend's husband's secretary that I was screwing Mr. Bolonsky when I meant to say I was looking for him....
> I didn't take formal lessons - I'm unteachable - but just picked up enough, over time, to get by in most situations although no way could I have held a deep conversation by the time I left. However....if I were still there I think I would be able to do that. It's kind of inevitable when you are surrounded by native speakers.
> Relax and let it happen to you. Laugh at your mistakes -I'm sure you won't make as many as I have done - I caused suppressed titters when speaking at a meeting referring to European penises when I wanted to say European laws. It's one way of learning...


In Canada, you may know that French is one of our two national languages, and it's a compulsory subject in school. So that background has helped me learn Spanish. English also has a lot of Latin, as you probably know, but my biggest exposure to Latin is in learning medical terminology. That's helped enormously, especially for my medical care. Another thing that helps me is that, since I was little, people talk to me easily. Perhaps it has to do with being a really good listener, something people have often tell me. But what never occurred to me that would help is that I've listened to foreigners a lot in Canada, including in my work as a medical transcriptionist, where there is an increasing number of foreign physicians. So that ability to listen to and converse with foreigners is paying off in spades here in Spain. The difference is this time I'm the foreigner. 

The skill set of learning a language isn't limited to any one aspect; we can draw from many areas to learn a language.


----------



## mrypg9

AllHeart said:


> In Canada, you may know that French is one of our two national languages, and it's a compulsory subject in school. So that background has helped me learn Spanish. English also has a lot of Latin, as you probably know, but my biggest exposure to Latin is in learning medical terminology. That's helped enormously, especially for my medical care. Another thing that helps me is that, since I was little, people talk to me easily. Perhaps it has to do with being a really good listener, something people have often tell me. But what never occurred to me that would help is that I've listened to foreigners a lot in Canada, including in my work as a medical transcriptionist, where there is an increasing number of foreign physicians. So that ability to listen to and converse with foreigners is paying off in spades here in Spain. The difference is this time I'm the foreigner.
> 
> The skill set of learning a language isn't limited to any one aspect; we can draw from many areas to learn a language.


I think I've said before that I have a very ancient Aunt living in Deux Montagnes, Quebec, my mum's only sister.  Her name is Ellen but when she went to live in Canada in 1947 she became known as Helen. In our family she was known as Nellie and so I call her Auntie Nellie, which blew her cover amongst her friends in Deux Montagnes! 
Her story is a romantic one...during an air raid in her home town in the Second World War she lost her handbag. Later that evening a handsome Canadian soldier knocked at the door, he had come to return it, having found it in some rubble. They married and remained married until his death in 2003. That was my Uncle Earl. 
He was a lovely man...went ashore with the Canadian forces in the morning of D-Day 1944. He was a radio operator. 
My Aunt converted to Catholicism and became ultra-pious. My mum married a Catholic but remained irreligious. 
I haven't visited my Aunt for four years now but when I went to Deux Montagnes and spoke French I was told that it was hard to understand me because 'I spoke Parisian French.' Uncle Earl spoke fluent French but my Aunt, typically British, refused to learn and to this day speaks no French.
Which is silly as her English friends are nearly all dead so she is quite isolated. She still lives at home and looks after herself.


----------



## mrypg9

AllHeart said:


> In Canada, you may know that French is one of our two national languages, and it's a compulsory subject in school. So that background has helped me learn Spanish. English also has a lot of Latin, as you probably know, but my biggest exposure to Latin is in learning medical terminology. That's helped enormously, especially for my medical care. Another thing that helps me is that, since I was little, people talk to me easily. Perhaps it has to do with being a really good listener, something people have often tell me. But what never occurred to me that would help is that I've listened to foreigners a lot in Canada, including in my work as a medical transcriptionist, where there is an increasing number of foreign physicians. So that ability to listen to and converse with foreigners is paying off in spades here in Spain. The difference is this time I'm the foreigner.
> 
> The skill set of learning a language isn't limited to any one aspect; we can draw from many areas to learn a language.


Meant to say: yes, English has many words of Latin origin. We owe that to the Norman Conquest 1066. Norman French was the language of the ruling class so most of the words that are of Latin origin end in -ion and are concerned with abstracts like religion, administration, jurisdiction and so on.
As you are interested in language this may interest you: the words cow, calf, sheep are of Anglo-Saxon origin but the meat from them -beef, mutton, veal, are of French origin. The Saxons worked the land and tended the cattle, the French lords ate the meat!
I think that the philology part of my first degree course was the most interesting.
Did you know that many English words are of Scandinavian (Viking) origin...like Sky, egg...we've been invade so many times..
And I'll stop there as I'm getting into 'teacher mode'.
But yes, learning languages happens in many ways. Two of the best speakers of English I know learnt entirely from watching English tv....Hard to believe but true.
Do you have Spanish tv?


----------



## AllHeart

mrypg9 said:


> Meant to say: yes, English has many words of Latin origin. We owe that to the Norman Conquest 1066. Norman French was the language of the ruling class so most of the words that are of Latin origin end in -ion and are concerned with abstracts like religion, administration, jurisdiction and so on.
> As you are interested in language this may interest you: the words cow, calf, sheep are of Anglo-Saxon origin but the meat from them -beef, mutton, veal, are of French origin. The Saxons worked the land and tended the cattle, the French lords ate the meat!
> I think that the philology part of my first degree course was the most interesting.
> Did you know that many English words are of Scandinavian (Viking) origin...like Sky, egg...we've been invade so many times..
> And I'll stop there as I'm getting into 'teacher mode'.
> But yes, learning languages happens in many ways. Two of the best speakers of English I know learnt entirely from watching English tv....Hard to believe but true.
> Do you have Spanish tv?


Mary, it sounds like language is one of your passions. I love passion. No, I didn't know that about the animal-food word origins. No, I didn't know that about the Scandinavian word origins. There's no need to stop your teacher mode, as I'm quite enjoying this.  Yes, I have Spanish TV, but don't watch it. I don't like TV, but love movies. I was using Kickass for movies, but they shut down.  I do have a Spanish keyboard though.  

So you know too that I also know some Greek through my previous language experience? 

It's kind of like languages are a reflection of the history of immigration and other historical events in the world.


----------

