# Driving licence question



## Melosine

Just querying as I have had Spanish driving licence for 10 years but wondering about those, particularly the younger resident expats, who don’t.
As in UK licences don’t need renewing until one is 70 does that mean Brits in residence here can still legally drive OR regardless of age is it now illegal for an expat not to have a Spanish licence.
If the latter this could possibly have serious insurance issues to name but one.
Many of us would pass taking a test in England so adding in language barrier believe most would fail.
Opinions please.


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## xicoalc

Anyone (British) who is a resident in Spain now needs a Spanish license. Until January the authorities made it as easy as possible to change (a straight swap) and even though a backlog built up due to the volume of people who had never bothered, they accepted pre-registrations so that as long as people had started the process all would be ok.

Now, anyone who comes over must change their license and that will mean a Spanish driving test. Likewise, anyone already here who has not done so already has to do the change. Failing to do so could have consequences in terms of fines and, as you say, invalidating insurance.

But... people have had years knowing brexit was coming, and plenty of time to get things done, so obviously anyone who has been living here and just not bothered, has only got themselves to blame if the process is harder now!


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## Melosine

xicoalc said:


> Anyone (British) who is a resident in Spain now needs a Spanish license. Until January the authorities made it as easy as possible to change (a straight swap) and even though a backlog built up due to the volume of people who had never bothered, they accepted pre-registrations so that as long as people had started the process all would be ok.
> 
> Now, anyone who comes over must change their license and that will mean a Spanish driving test. Likewise, anyone already here who has not done so already has to do the change. Failing to do so could have consequences in terms of fines and, as you say, invalidating insurance.
> 
> But... people have had years knowing brexit was coming, and plenty of time to get things done, so obviously anyone who has been living here and just not bothered, has only got themselves to blame if the process is harder now!


Why I was seeking confirmation because many Brits we know under the impression it is only the new residents who are obliged to change. 
With this in mind what is the general opinion of how it will be policed( as in what will happen when caught) and how do people think it will impact on vehicle insurance


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## Barriej

Melosine said:


> Just querying as I have had Spanish driving licence for 10 years but wondering about those, particularly the younger resident expats, who don’t.
> As in UK licences don’t need renewing until one is 70 does that mean Brits in residence here can still legally drive OR regardless of age is it now illegal for an expat not to have a Spanish licence.
> If the latter this could possibly have serious insurance issues to name but one.
> Many of us would pass taking a test in England so adding in language barrier believe most would fail.
> Opinions please.


Spanish licences have to be renewed at either 10, 5 or less years depending on medical grounds. My Father in Law has to renew his every 2 years.
You have to have the medical (its not really) to prove fitness to drive. In the Uk you just tick a box (unless your Doctor or the Hospital have informed the DVLA that you are unfit)

Before Brexit you could drive with a UK licence but if you became resident you were supposed to exchange it. However many didn't want to or couldn't be bothered. (same with the rush to get residency at the last moment )

We arrived here in mid August and my licence went off via an agent in November.

There was a system in December that allowed any resident (or those starting residency) to start the process online to allow the DGT to contact the DVLA and check your drivers history.

*Unfortunately, now the Uk is a 3rd country. Anyone who migrated here from the Uk and didn't bother to swap their Uk licence now has to take a test. The cut off for the licence exchange was 31st Dec 2020.*

Any new arrivals also will have to take a test. Unless at some point Spain agree a licence exchange program as they have with around 30 other 3rd countries.

The theory test is available in English but as far as I know the practical MUST be done in Spanish.

Hope that helps.


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## Melosine

xicoalc said:


> Anyone (British) who is a resident in Spain now needs a Spanish license. Until January the authorities made it as easy as possible to change (a straight swap) and even though a backlog built up due to the volume of people who had never bothered, they accepted pre-registrations so that as long as people had started the process all would be ok.
> 
> Now, anyone who comes over must change their license and that will mean a Spanish driving test. Likewise, anyone already here who has not done so already has to do the change. Failing to do so could have consequences in terms of fines and, as you say, invalidating insurance.
> 
> But... people have had years knowing brexit was coming, and plenty of time to get things done, so obviously anyone who has been living here and just not bothered, has only got themselves to blame if the process is harder now!


Agree but many Brits here do believe they are superior to the Spanish and worse still adamant they are actually ‘ doing the country a favour’


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## Barriej

Melosine said:


> Why I was seeking confirmation because many Brits we know under the impression it is only the new residents who are obliged to change.
> With this in mind what is the general opinion of how it will be policed( as in what will happen when caught) and how do people think it will impact on vehicle insurance


I would imagine with those new fangled computer things, it would be easy  (that was sarcastic mode)

You have residence, so it would be simple for the DGT to look at the records and see if you own a car, have insurance, have a licence. 

In the UK its all electronic, if stopped by the police. They can tell you all of the above (and have done because Ive seen the system) 
MOT in the UK is now electronic and stored with the vehicle details. The system also knows if the vehicle is insured.
Your driving licence and NI number are now connected as well (try looking up your details on the DVLA website) it asks for drivers no and your NI and they must match.

Cant see why the Spanish wouldn't have the same or similar.


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## xicoalc

Melosine said:


> Agree but many Brits here do believe they are superior to the Spanish and worse still adamant they are actually ‘ doing the country a favour’


Indeed! But as someone said the other day, a lot will probably get caught out now... perimeter borders closed, more police controls. And i hope they go round putting huge fines on anyone who has not done the change because this was not sprung on people overnight. I changed mine years ago too and it was very simple and right until the end of last year anyone could have done it cheap and easy.

As for insurance, to drive any car you must have a "valid" driving license. British ones simply wont be valid for residents so that would mean invalid insurance and the Spanish take that very seriously!


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## xicoalc

Barriej said:


> I would imagine with those new fangled computer things, it would be easy  (that was sarcastic mode)
> 
> You have residence, so it would be simple for the DGT to look at the records and see if you own a car, have insurance, have a licence.
> 
> In the UK its all electronic, if stopped by the police. They can tell you all of the above (and have done because Ive seen the system)
> MOT in the UK is now electronic and stored with the vehicle details. The system also knows if the vehicle is insured.
> Your driving licence and NI number are now connected as well (try looking up your details on the DVLA website) it asks for drivers no and your NI and they must match.
> 
> Cant see why the Spanish wouldn't have the same or similar.


Indeed... 

Which reminds me.. has anyone downloaded the DGT app? It´s pretty good and acts as a digital version (no need to carry the card). Well worth the download!

And again, to set up the app, you put your DNI/NIE and verification ([email protected] for example) and all your details of every car you own and your license etc all come up, so definitely from just the NIE they know everything!


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## Melosine

Barriej said:


> Spanish licences have to be renewed at either 10, 5 or less years depending on medical grounds. My Father in Law has to renew his every 2 years.
> You have to have the medical (its not really) to prove fitness to drive. In the Uk you just tick a box (unless your Doctor or the Hospital have informed the DVLA that you are unfit)
> 
> Before Brexit you could drive with a UK licence but if you became resident you were supposed to exchange it. However many didn't want to or couldn't be bothered. (same with the rush to get residency at the last moment )
> 
> We arrived here in mid August and my licence went off via an agent in November.
> 
> There was a system in December that allowed any resident (or those starting residency) to start the process online to allow the DGT to contact the DVLA and check your drivers history.
> 
> *Unfortunately, now the Uk is a 3rd country. Anyone who migrated here from the Uk and didn't bother to swap their Uk licence now has to take a test. The cut off for the licence exchange was 31st Dec 2020.*
> 
> Any new arrivals also will have to take a test. Unless at some point Spain agree a licence exchange program as they have with around 30 other 3rd countries.
> 
> The theory test is available in English but as far as I know the practical MUST be done in Spanish.
> 
> Hope that helps.


Renewing and medical is easy even for those not fluent in Spanish. Last time we got 5 years on our licence renewals but expect next time it to be reduced for husband as he is now 80.
Why I am querying this is because many we know have been stampeding to get their TIE but deathly quiet about how to exchange driving licences. Which I know few Brits where I live have bothered about because in UK it is yet to be an age issue.


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## Melosine

I suppose it is advisable if a Brit resident offers us a lift we should ask to see their licence!


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## MataMata

Not the worst idea - at the risk of having the offer withdrawn of course!


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## Overandout

xicoalc said:


> Indeed...
> 
> Which reminds me.. has anyone downloaded the DGT app? It´s pretty good and acts as a digital version (no need to carry the card). Well worth the download!
> 
> And again, to set up the app, you put your DNI/NIE and verification ([email protected] for example) and all your details of every car you own and your license etc all come up, so definitely from just the NIE they know everything!


I'd been meaning to do that for a while so thanks for reminding me!

It is quite detailed and useful really, I was surprised to see a third vehicle listed which turns out to be a motorbike which I have in boxes in my basement which I forgot I owned! I really must get round to building it!


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## xicoalc

Overandout said:


> I'd been meaning to do that for a while so thanks for reminding me!
> 
> It is quite detailed and useful really, I was surprised to see a third vehicle listed which turns out to be a motorbike which I have in boxes in my basement which I forgot I owned! I really must get round to building it!


They are doing an app for tge Dni soon. I wonder if they will include tie in that!


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## stevesainty

Once you are resident, you have to have a Spanish driving licence. Before Brexit and covid, you were, IIRC, given 2 months in which to exchange your British licence.
Now, post Brexit, you are unable to exchange your licence, unless you registered your intent to exchange before 1 Jan 2021, and have, IIRC, until 30 June 2021 to complete the process.
To obtain a Spanish licence you need to pass both parts, theory and practical, of the Spanish driving test. You can elect to take the theory test in English, if you request to at the time of application.
The practical test, though, will be conducted in Spanish, so you will need to understand a little Spanish to understand the examiners instructions, like follow the road ahead until I tell you otherwise.


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## snikpoh

stevesainty said:


> Once you are resident, you have to have a Spanish driving licence. Before Brexit and covid, you were, IIRC, given 2 months in which to exchange your British licence.
> Now, post Brexit, you are unable to exchange your licence, unless you registered your intent to exchange before 1 Jan 2021, and have, IIRC, until 30 June 2021 to complete the process.
> To obtain a Spanish licence you need to pass both parts, theory and practical, of the Spanish driving test. You can elect to take the theory test in English, if you request to at the time of application.
> The practical test, though, will be conducted in Spanish, so you will need to understand a little Spanish to understand the examiners instructions, like follow the road ahead until I tell you otherwise.


Actually, that's not correct.If the licence met the criteria, a UK d/l was quite valid until it expired.


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## Pesky Wesky

xicoalc said:


> Indeed...
> 
> Which reminds me.. has anyone downloaded the DGT app? It´s pretty good and acts as a digital version (no need to carry the card). Well worth the download!
> 
> And again, to set up the app, you put your DNI/NIE and verification ([email protected] for example) and all your details of every car you own and your license etc all come up, so definitely from just the NIE they know everything!


Didn't know there was one, mind you I'm not really into having a lot of personal stuff on my phone. If I lose my phone or if it's stolen I prefer not to think it's taken my life with it!
Do you mean that if you have the app you don't need to carry your driving licence?


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## kaipa

If you are stopped by the Guardia they will ask to see your licence and other documents. For Brits this will mean a Passport. You will be asked your sts


stevesainty said:


> Once you are resident, you have to have a Spanish driving licence. Before Brexit and covid, you were, IIRC, given 2 months in which to exchange your British licence.
> Now, post Brexit, you are unable to exchange your licence, unless you registered your intent to exchange before 1 Jan 2021, and have, IIRC, until 30 June 2021 to complete the process.
> To obtain a Spanish licence you need to pass both parts, theory and practical, of the Spanish driving test. You can elect to take the theory test in English, if you request to at the time of application.
> The practical test, though, will be conducted in Spanish, so you will need to understand a little Spanish to understand the examiners instructions, like follow the road ahead until I tell you otherwise.


In reality you probably find you cant just isolate individual phrases like that. People will have different ways of issusing instructions plus different accents and different delivery speeds. Plus there will be greetings, documents to sign and of course you will need to respond in an understandable manner with a degree of fluency. My ex who speaks perfect Spanish ( south American mother) said the examiner spoke really quickly and issued instructions in a very officious manner which stressed her so I imagine you really would need to be at at least B1 level to feel in any way comfortable. Having said all this I have heard people saying that the practical can be done in English although no one seems to have any proof yet but I imagine it might be possible in Madrid. It would depend on DGT rules involving the requirements of the examiner. Be careful of schools that offer the test in English. I know of a few that advertise this but what they mean is that they are happy to explain everything to you in English but it doesn't mean that the test will be done in English!!


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## xabiaxica

kaipa said:


> If you are stopped by the Guardia they will ask to see your licence and other documents. For Brits this will mean a Passport. You will be asked your sts
> 
> In reality you probably find you cant just isolate individual phrases like that. People will have different ways of issusing instructions plus different accents and different delivery speeds. Plus there will be greetings, documents to sign and of course you will need to respond in an understandable manner with a degree of fluency. My ex who speaks perfect Spanish ( south American mother) said the examiner spoke really quickly and issued instructions in a very officious manner which stressed her so I imagine you really would need to be at at least B1 level to feel in any way comfortable. Having said all this I have heard people saying that the practical can be done in English although no one seems to have any proof yet but I imagine it might be possible in Madrid. It would depend on DGT rules involving the requirements of the examiner. Be careful of schools that offer the test in English. I know of a few that advertise this but what they mean is that they are happy to explain everything to you in English but it doesn't mean that the test will be done in English!!


At least one of the driving schools in my town has an English speaking instructor, who takes learners out for practice using English - but the actual practical test is in Spanish, so I can't see how having lessons delivered in English can help at all...


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## kaipa

xabiaxica said:


> At least one of the driving schools in my town has an English speaking instructor, who takes learners out for practice using English - but the actual practical test is in Spanish, so I can't see how having lessons delivered in English can help at all...


 That's my point; it is just a way of getting business whilst maybe not making it apparent that the examiner will do the test in English. I have heard rumours that you can have an interpreter but again no official line on this and I would imagine that there could be numerous issues involved with doing it this way. TBH this is going to be the biggest problem for Brits who are intending to settle in Spain unless they choose to.live in urban areas with sufficient services etc. Life without a car wont be much fun for many. Still as I pointed out before- should count yourself lucky, Spanish cant even get residency in UK now without an English test!!!


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## Overandout

Pesky Wesky said:


> Didn't know there was one, mind you I'm not really into having a lot of personal stuff on my phone. If I lose my phone or if it's stolen I prefer not to think it's taken my life with it!
> Do you mean that if you have the app you don't need to carry your driving licence?


Yes, if you have the app, you don't (in theory) need to carry your licence, but considering that the app shows the same info that the police have access to already anyway it does make you wonder why we have to carry the licence / have the app in the first place!

I wonder what happens if you have the app, but are stopped in area without mobile coverage, or if the server is down... in practical terms it can't really replace the physical card.


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## xicoalc

Overandout said:


> Yes, if you have the app, you don't (in theory) need to carry your licence, but considering that the app shows the same info that the police have access to already anyway it does make you wonder why we have to carry the licence / have the app in the first place!
> 
> I wonder what happens if you have the app, but are stopped in area without mobile coverage, or if the server is down... in practical terms it can't really replace the physical card.


Well, I guess having the card or app means they can look at the photo and check its you. Before the days of the TIE, I never used to carry my passport after one day i had it stolen and thought "never again". In any routine stops by the police they accepted by driving license as ID (even once when i was stopped as I was walking through a town very late after a work christmas dinner!). I guess now with TIE they CAN access anything they want to check but as the rules state "carry license when driving", it will always come down to the discretion of the one who stops you !!

As for the mobile coverage, thats a good point. I know that the app has a QR bar code thingy which is for the police to scan to verify that the app is real and the info shows is not manipulated. Whether that code can be displayed without coverage, i have no idea... i maytry later turning offdata... 

I still carry my license with me anyway when I driving... always best to be safe thatn sorry but if one day I dont have it with me.. at least the app is a godo plan B!


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## MataMata

I have the app on my phone but have also made and laminated high quality photocopies of both my driving licence and TIE and carry those in my wallet instead of the originals, I also have a copy of the ID page of my passport.

In addition to all that I have photos of all the originals on the phone and have also emailed them to myself, the latter I advise everyone to do as in the very worst case where you lose your wallet and everything is gone having those available from wherever you can get online and to your email can save a lot of grief in the aftermath.

If amongst that lot a Guardi doubts my ID then I'll look on a few hours spent in a cell at a police station waiting for my wife to bring the originals as an interesting experience to add to a lifetimes collection!


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## xicoalc

MataMata said:


> I have the app on my phone but have also made and laminated high quality photocopies of both my driving licence and TIE and carry those in my wallet instead of the originals, I also have a copy of the ID page of my passport.
> 
> In addition to all that I have photos of all the originals on the phone and have also emailed them to myself, the latter I advise everyone to do as in the very worst case where you lose your wallet and everything is gone having those available from wherever you can get online and to your email can save a lot of grief in the aftermath.
> 
> If amongst that lot a Guardi doubts my ID then I'll look on a few hours spent in a cell at a police station waiting for my wife to bring the originals as an interesting experience to add to a lifetimes collection!


The email thing is a good idea. In the days of the green certificate, when mine was changed form A4 to credit card size, i always kept the original at home. I took ti to a copy shop and had them make a high definition colour photocopy and laminate that...was accepted for everything. There was only ever one person (in the town hall) who was a jobsworth and said "did you know you are not allowed to liminate this?". I replied with "its ok, its just a photocopy that I laminated, its not the original". She said "ok then" and continued with the process jajaja


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## Pesky Wesky

xicoalc said:


> The email thing is a good idea. In the days of the green certificate, when mine was changed form A4 to credit card size, i always kept the original at home. I took ti to a copy shop and had them make a high definition colour photocopy and laminate that...was accepted for everything. There was only ever one person (in the town hall) who was a jobsworth and said "did you know you are not allowed to liminate this?". I replied with "its ok, its just a photocopy that I laminated, its not the original". She said "ok then" and continued with the process jajaja


Have you ever shown the laminated copy of the driving licence to the police or Guardia Civil? Was it accepted?


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## xicoalc

Pesky Wesky said:


> Have you ever shown the laminated copy of the driving licence to the police or Guardia Civil? Was it accepted?


Ive only shown them a real driving license. What i had laminated was the green nie


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## MataMata

xicoalc said:


> There was only ever one person (in the town hall) who was a jobsworth and said "did you know you are not allowed to liminate this?". I replied with "its ok, its just a photocopy that I laminated, its not the original". She said "ok then" and continued with the process jajaja


You was lucky, the retort could equally have been "sorry original only!"


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## piersuk

xabiaxica said:


> At least one of the driving schools in my town has an English speaking instructor, who takes learners out for practice using English - but the actual practical test is in Spanish, so I can't see how having lessons delivered in English can help at all...


That’s interesting, I’m guessing Javea? Which school? 

I understand you are allowed a companion onboard for the test to act as your interpreter, though stand to be corrected.


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## xabiaxica

piersuk said:


> That’s interesting, I’m guessing Javea? Which school?
> 
> I understand you are allowed a companion onboard for the test to act as your interpreter, though stand to be corrected.


It was the one my daughter used - though she did hers all in Spanish having grown up here. I just asked her which one - it has closed down since then, apparently. 

If I hear of another one, I'll post here.


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## kaipa

piersuk said:


> That’s interesting, I’m guessing Javea? Which school?
> 
> I understand you are allowed a companion onboard for the test to act as your interpreter, though stand to be corrected.


I have also heard this but never had it confirmed. It would appear to be highly unlikely given the problem of veracity not to mention weird- the driver and examiner not actually communicating whilst giving and receiving time limited instructions


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## Overandout

xicoalc said:


> Well, I guess having the card or app means they can look at the photo and check its you. Before the days of the TIE, I never used to carry my passport after one day i had it stolen and thought "never again". In any routine stops by the police they accepted by driving license as ID (even once when i was stopped as I was walking through a town very late after a work christmas dinner!). I guess now with TIE they CAN access anything they want to check but as the rules state "carry license when driving", it will always come down to the discretion of the one who stops you !!
> 
> As for the mobile coverage, thats a good point. I know that the app has a QR bar code thingy which is for the police to scan to verify that the app is real and the info shows is not manipulated. Whether that code can be displayed without coverage, i have no idea... i maytry later turning offdata...
> 
> I still carry my license with me anyway when I driving... always best to be safe thatn sorry but if one day I dont have it with me.. at least the app is a godo plan B!


The police can see your photo on their own information systems, there's no need for the public to carry photo ID really these days as long as the IT systems are working.

But as you say, it must surely be safer to carry the licence with you than risk being fined becuase, say, your battery goes flat on yoir mobile.

My first fine in Spain was in fact for not having the payment receipt for my car insurance with me in the car when that used to be a legal requirement! They knew I was insured, but the law said that I had to show them the evidence and I couldn't! It's a fair cop, as they say.


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## xicoalc

Overandout said:


> My first fine in Spain was in fact for not having the payment receipt for my car insurance with me in the car when that used to be a legal requirement! They knew I was insured, but the law said that I had to show them the evidence and I couldn't! It's a fair cop, as they say.


Is it not a requirement any more? Every year when the car insurance renewal comes through I always keep it in the car and print the recibo from the bank to keep with it. Again, I guess now with technology we can pull up bank receipts also on phones but after all these years here, I have just got into a habit of having paper everything just incase... even to the point of every document that it in the house is stored along with a photocopy of it! Well.. you never know!


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## Overandout

xicoalc said:


> Is it not a requirement any more?


No! Not since 2008!


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## xicoalc

Overandout said:


> No! Not since 2008!


Ohhh. Well you learn something new every day. Thats saved me some ink gracias!


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## MataMata

Ah but has that trickled down to the Guardi though, that's the question?

My insurer always sends me a receipt for my payments which I keep with the documents in the vehicles.


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## xicoalc

MataMata said:


> Ah but has that trickled down to the Guardi though, that's the question?
> 
> My insurer always sends me a receipt for my payments which I keep with the documents in the vehicles.


Best to be safe than sorry!


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## Overandout

Come on, even the GC have updated their notebooks 13 years after the change in law!


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## MataMata

And yet sporadic reports of Guardi insisting that resident UK citizens should have Spanish licences have persisted for years when only now is that actually true.

Honestly though, for what little it takes to print off a single piece of paper and shove it in the car along with the new certificate of insurance only the petty or obstreperous could attempt to argue against!


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## xicoalc

MataMata said:


> And yet sporadic reports of Guardi insisting that resident UK citizens should have Spanish licences have persisted for years when only now is that actually true.
> 
> Honestly though, for what little it takes to print off a single piece of paper and shove it in the car along with the new certificate of insurance only the petty or obstreperous could attempt to argue against!


I like to print it out and put it in the car. Makes me feel like ive achieved something 

Although to be honest. In all the times ive been stopped (once for speeding and once for cross a solid line) (proper bad one, me), along with maybe 20 routine stops at road blocks, thr most they ever asked for was driving licence.... And usually have a gander round the car, realise im not the drug smugler type amd just wave me on!


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## Paulc66

kaipa said:


> I have also heard this but never had it confirmed. It would appear to be highly unlikely given the problem of veracity not to mention weird- the driver and examiner not actually communicating whilst giving and receiving time limited instructions


I believe in the UK you can have an interpreter present on the practical test.


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## kaipa

Paulc66 said:


> I believe in the UK you can have an interpreter present on the practical test.


In UK only residents can have UK driving licence and as all residents have to have English cant see why they would need an interpreter?


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## Paulc66

I stand corrected, just checked and you are no longer entitled to one.


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## MataMata

"all residents have to have English"

Really, when did that law come in then?


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## kaipa

MataMata said:


> "all residents have to have English"
> 
> Really, when did that law come in then?


I believe all persons applying for settlement ( indefinite leave to remain in uk= residency) require English. Prior to Brexit this was not enforceable on EU citizens but as of 1st January it applies to all.


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## Paulc66

I would suspect there are thousands of uk residents who do not speak English


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## Barriej

Paulc66 said:


> I would suspect there are thousands of uk residents who do not speak English


And lots here who don't speak any Spanish (Im slowing improving but as we only go to the local shops, the conversations are mainly the same) and its not just Brits either. 
Would not think I could take a Spanish driving test in Spanish.


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## Paulc66

Barriej said:


> And lots here who don't speak any Spanish (Im slowing improving but as we only go to the local shops, the conversations are mainly the same) and its not just Brits either.
> Would not think I could take a Spanish driving test in Spanish.
> Do you get about OK without a car then? Don't think I could get by without one. How about when first moving over. Would I get away with an international driving permit for a while?


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## Barriej

Paulc66 said:


> Do you get about OK without a car then? Don't think I could get by without one. How about when first moving over. Would I get away with an international driving permit for a while?


Ive put my licence in the beginning of November (we have been here since August 2020) and have the temporary paper. Its dated till 23rd March and if lucky should get my shiny Spanish one by then?

I doubt it, but you would be Ok until residency was granted, after that you are not allowed to drive ANY foreign plated car belonging to you (well thats what Ive been told) Someone will be along in a mo to correct me.

If I were coming here now, where I would live would revolve around the transport links and that would become the centre of my search.
We live in a little village with no shops (well a room that sells local stuff). The nearest shops are 1.5km away with a supermarket about 2.5km. It takes about 15min to walk to the nearest bar.

Without a car I would be thinking twice or even three times about coming here, I wanted the same or better quality of life. And going through the hassle of doing another driving test might have put me off. But we would have ended up moving to a big town and we didn't want that.


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## Muddy

xicoalc said:


> Anyone (British) who is a resident in Spain now needs a Spanish license. Until January the authorities made it as easy as possible to change (a straight swap) and even though a backlog built up due to the volume of people who had never bothered, they accepted pre-registrations so that as long as people had started the process all would be ok.
> 
> Now, anyone who comes over must change their license and that will mean a Spanish driving test. Likewise, anyone already here who has not done so already has to do the change. Failing to do so could have consequences in terms of fines and, as you say, invalidating insurance.
> 
> But... people have had years knowing brexit was coming, and plenty of time to get things done, so obviously anyone who has been living here and just not bothered, has only got themselves to blame if the process is harder now!


Hi. I think your comment is a bit harsh, not everyone's situation is the same and through experience will never agree "*the authorities made it as easy as possible*" 
"*they accepted pre-registrations so that as long as people had started the process all would be ok.*"
Well in my case no. I did the preregistration, that was done on time!
I might have not have done things as soon as I could have, but I've had many other issues to deal with. I've been here just over a year and with Covid-19 restrictions/delays and lack of staff, it seems to deal with getting people through the system I now have a big problem as I don't speak Spanish even to take a test.
I did last year register with DGT to exchange, but with help and paying a lawyer and a friend and the lawyer still could not get me a residency appointment using my Irish passport. I got my residency card just into January 2021, impossible to get an appointment sooner, I tried hundreds of times to register an appointment, so as an EU citizen the system put me at a disadvantage is this respect as a TIE would have done this quick and simple online using a different system.
I've just been turned away by the DGT when attending my appointment saying they will not exchange my UK driving licence because the residency card was issued this year Jan 2021 (their delays) and not before end of 2020. I was trying to get an appoint for many months as I've said and even a lawyer couldn't get it done.
I'm not one of those people that have been around for years, or even almost 2 decades which a few I know and done everything last minute helping the system to fold. I tried my best to get the residency appointment last year, the delay wasn't down to me or for the lack of trying!


----------



## kaipa

But if you have Irish passport you dont need TIE and should have had plenty of time to exchange? Anyway you only needed to register before 31st ?


----------



## Joppa

Take an Irish driving licence, which will be valid for at least 2 years in Spain, then you can exchange it.


----------



## MataMata

Muddy said:


> I've just been turned away by the DGT when attending my appointment saying they will not exchange my UK driving licence because the residency card was issued this year Jan 2021 (their delays) and not before end of 2020.


That's ridiculous and pretty much negates the whole idea of preregistering a licence!

If your local DGT aren't made to see their error a lot of people are going to find themselves in a similar situation.


----------



## Muddy

kaipa said:


> But if you have Irish passport you dont need TIE and should have had plenty of time to exchange? Anyway you only needed to register before 31st ?


Thanks for reply. Correct. I didn't really word my post very well. And yes 6 months from Residency to exchange or to end of June anyway. I registered well before 31 Dec 2020, actually I think the deadline was the 30th Dec but I've seen 31st listed also.
But they made it very clear I'm too late because my residency was issued after Dec 31.



Joppa said:


> Take an Irish driving licence, which will be valid for at least 2 years in Spain, then you can exchange it.


Thanks for reply. I was last in Ireland as a child, I don't have an Irish driving licence.
I have an Irish EU passport, and UK driving licence.



MataMata said:


> That's ridiculous and pretty much negates the whole idea of preregistering a licence!
> 
> If your local DGT aren't made to see their error a lot of people are going to find themselves in a similar situation.


Thanks for reply. 
It's even more complex than this actually but that wont help getting into that.

I did register with DGT well on time last year.
BTW I made reference earlier about TIE because that online system is not available when using an Irish passport. So TIE with UK passport gets you in the system straight away as far as I know. But when you try to register using an Irish passport you just had to keep tying over and over again, and your attempts at registering for a residency appointment isn't logged like it is with an TIE type using a UK passport!
So even though I, a friend and a lawyer was trying over and over again month after month I couldn't get an appointment. I have evidence of trying to do this, but who cares! I can't live where I am without a car and I can't take a test in Spanish.

A lot of people, like you said! "_a lot of people are going to_ _find themselves in a similar situation_."

But are the DGT in error? I do hope you're right about that.
The wording I've found is vague, but I don't remember seeing anything on the DGT site stating what they were saying at my appointment.
It's clear to them I meet the requirements and have done for all the time I've been in Spain, all my personal details and banking etc prove that, they know the delays have been caused by not enough appointments being given out.
It's a very bad situation.


----------



## Barriej

Muddy said:


> Hi. I think your comment is a bit harsh, not everyone's situation is the same and through experience will never agree "*the authorities made it as easy as possible*"
> "*they accepted pre-registrations so that as long as people had started the process all would be ok.*"
> Well in my case no. I did the preregistration, that was done on time!
> I might have not have done things as soon as I could have, but I've had many other issues to deal with. I've been here just over a year and with Covid-19 restrictions/delays and lack of staff, it seems to deal with getting people through the system I now have a big problem as I don't speak Spanish even to take a test.
> I did last year register with DGT to exchange, but with help and paying a lawyer and a friend and the lawyer still could not get me a residency appointment using my Irish passport. I got my residency card just into January 2021, impossible to get an appointment sooner, I tried hundreds of times to register an appointment, so as an EU citizen the system put me at a disadvantage is this respect as a TIE would have done this quick and simple online using a different system.
> I've just been turned away by the DGT when attending my appointment saying they will not exchange my UK driving licence because the residency card was issued this year Jan 2021 (their delays) and not before end of 2020. I was trying to get an appoint for many months as I've said and even a lawyer couldn't get it done.
> I'm not one of those people that have been around for years, or even almost 2 decades which a few I know and done everything last minute helping the system to fold. I tried my best to get the residency appointment last year, the delay wasn't down to me or for the lack of trying!


I see you have commented before I got my post in.
Didn't know that the system was different to the UK one.


You need to get your lawyer to appeal this.

If you pre registered and you had your residence application in before the end of Dec (and hopefully you would have had the Resolucion De Concession) as long as that was dated before 31st Dec 2020.
They SHOULD have excepted your licence exchange.
In fact I think even if the Resolution was after 1st Jan they should still have accepted your exchange.

I know this is not much help now, but there were two ways of making the exchange. (both required the 'medical')

1. the 'old' way whereby you or an agent takes your licence, the form and your residency document (the Resolution letter was eacceptable) to the DGT before the end of Dec 2020. They would then have processed it an your new Spanish licence would have arrived about 3 months later.
2. The 'newer' way. Pre register before 22nd Dec (cause that was the cut off) and then once you had your residency (TIE) get an appointment to make the exchange.

But as long as you pre registered before the cut off they should not have refused you. You need to ensure that the DGT did confirm your driving status with the DVLA.

With respect to the residency. As a first time applicant, the process for the new TIE should have been done online. You didn't need any appointments, it was completely automatic, and on average resolutions were being given after approx 2-3 weeks. (the wait for the fingerprint appointment was long, we waited nearly 4 months). And to be honest Ive spoken to a couple of people who made the same comment about a lack of appointments and didn't know the first part was electronic (you could go in person but why would you?, unless your gestor or solicitor didn't have the digital certificate)

The resolution document is the start date for your residency. (i.e. mine was dated 18/11/2020 so my 5 year TIE expires 17/11/2025, my fingerprint appointment was 12/03/2021)

So I suppose they are saying as you didn't register for residence before the end of last year, they wont accept your exchange.


----------



## MataMata

I'm a bit confused now.

Are you saying that despite having an Irish passport because you couldn't get a TIE appt. you actually applied using your UK one?

If so that may have been a mistake but it raises (yet another) conundrum to do with that pesky Irish border.

Technically regardless of Brexit NI citizens are also EU citizens and entitled to dual UK and Irish passports. They are also perfectly entitled to hold UK (British) driving licences and for those who do not actually reside in NI but in England that is the only licence available to them.

As an EU citizen theoretically your right to exchange a licence falls under the existing EU directive, the conundrum is whether somebody moving to Spain with an an Irish passport but a British licence does in fact still fall under the directive for an exchange or is ensnared in the Brexit fallout which is forcing it.

As laudable as wanting to be legal in Spain is your core misstep might have been in applying for a TIE at all, or at least not waiting until things had calmed down and systems and procedures returned to something like pre panic levels of pressure.

For EU citizens problems like this can be referred to SOLVIT


----------



## Barriej

MataMata said:


> I'm a bit confused now.
> 
> Are you saying that despite having an Irish passport because you couldn't get a TIE appt. you actually applied using your UK one?
> 
> If so that may have been a mistake but it raises (yet another) conundrum to do with that pesky Irish border.
> 
> Technically regardless of Brexit NI citizens are also EU citizens and entitled to dual UK and Irish passports. They are also perfectly entitled to hold UK (British) driving licences and for those who do not actually reside in NI but in England that is the only licence available to them.
> 
> As an EU citizen theoretically your right to exchange a licence falls under the existing EU directive, the conundrum is whether somebody moving to Spain with an an Irish passport but a British licence does in fact still fall under the directive for an exchange or is ensnared in the Brexit fallout which is forcing it.
> 
> As laudable as wanting to be legal in Spain is your core misstep might have been in applying for a TIE at all, or at least not waiting until things had calmed down and systems and procedures returned to something like pre panic levels of pressure.
> 
> For EU citizens problems like this can be referred to SOLVIT


I think that where the licence was issued is the deciding factor, not the nationality or the passport held. 
Would be happy to be corrected if wrong.

The Uk .gov website posted an update earlier today to say they were in talks to provide a full exchange scheme. 
Wouldn't hold my breathe but at least it looks like something is happening.





__





Living in Spain


Information for British citizens moving to or living in Spain, including guidance on residency, healthcare and passports.




www.gov.uk





And here is the bit.

*If you registered with the Spanish Traffic Authority (DGT) before 30 December 2020*
*If you were resident in Spain before 1 January 2021 and registered with the DGT before 30 December 2020, you should request an appointment with the DGT to exchange your UK licence by 30 June 2021.

To exchange your licence you will need:
*

*proof you are registered as a resident in Spain (eg. TIE – Tarjeta de Identidad de Extranjero; green EU residence certificate)*
*your UK licence*
*Read DGT’s guidance on how to get an appointment (in Spanish with English translation).

The DGT will exchange your UK licence for a temporary driving permit (‘autorización temporal para conducir’) until your Spanish licence is processed. This document is valid in Spain only.

If you did not register with DGT before 30 December 2020
If you did not register with DGT before 30 December 2020 and wish to exchange your UK driving licence, you should follow the DGT process for non-EU nationals. This includes taking a driving test.

The UK government is in discussion with the Spanish government on future driving licence exchange without the need for a practical test. Sign up for email alerts to this page, to get notified of our updates on changes to the rules.

Your valid UK licence will continue to be recognised in Spain until 30 June 2021.*


----------



## MataMata

Barriej said:


> The Uk .gov website posted an update earlier today to say they were in talks to provide a full exchange scheme.
> Wouldn't hold my breathe but at least it looks like something is happening.


I wouldn't bet on it, they have supposedly been 'in talks' for months with sweet FA to show for them.

If the will were really there just how difficult need it be to arrange something so simple, it's only between Spain and UK remember, nothing to do with Brussels or the EU.


----------



## xicoalc

MataMata said:


> I wouldn't bet on it, they have supposedly been 'in talks' for months with sweet FA to show for them.
> 
> If the will were really there just how difficult need it be to arrange something so simple, it's only between Spain and UK remember, nothing to do with Brussels or the EU.


Dont forget that there are now rules about data sharing. Before, the EU countries could simply verify a license, now many of those database links don't exist. There would be lots of work to sort out a special arrangement! 

Spain also will only give what the UK give in return!


----------



## Barriej

xicoalc said:


> Dont forget that there are now rules about data sharing. Before, the EU countries could simply verify a license, now many of those database links don't exist. There would be lots of work to sort out a special arrangement!
> 
> Spain also will only give what the UK give in return!


EU citizens in the UK already get a better deal. So why not?
This from the Commons Library dated 17th Feb 2021

*What about EU licence holders driving in the UK?*
EU licence-holders visiting the UK can continue to drive using their EU licence without needing an International Driving Permit. If a person’s vehicle is insured in the EU, Andorra, Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway, Serbia or Switzerland, they should carry either an insurance green card or other proof of insurance when driving in the UK.

EU licence-holders living in the UK can continue to use their licence as long as it is valid, subject to UK licence renewal requirements. This means an EU licence must be changed to a UK licence at the age of 70 or three years after the holder becomes resident, whichever is the later.

UK residents with an EU licence can exchange their licence for a UK one, if they wish to do so, without the need for a re-test.

As the Government notes, negotiations between the UK and EU Member States around the exchange of driving licences is ongoing. In the future, these rules could change depending on the outcome of these discussions.


----------



## sadlybroke

I don't want to hijack the thread but my situation is similar to some of the posters so I thought I'd ask for advice here.

I am a dual UK & Slovak national. I got my first driving license in Slovakia in 1994. I exchanged it for the UK driving license in 2004 when I moved to England. I hold only my UK DL now. We have plans to move to Spain at some point this or next year. However, I do not speak Spanish and, realistically, I won't be able to learn while we are here in the UK. So taking the test in Spanish is not an option.

I enquired with authorities in Slovakia about the possibility to change my UK license back to the Slovak license, then exchange that for the Spanish one once we move to Spain. However, I was informed that I can get a Slovak DL only after 6 months after I register for permanent residency in the country. That's not an option as in that case my kids would have to go to schools in Slovakia and we do not have plans to do so. We just don't want to move to Slovakia for 6 months just to get the DL and be able to move on to Spain.

However, I was also told that the Slovak authorities are able to issue a certificate (a copy of the Driver's Registration Card) which states that I got my DL in Slovakia in 1994 and that it was exchanged for the UK DL in 2004. The question is - do you think the Spanish authorities will accept such a certificate and exchange my UK DL for a Spanish one? Does anyone have any experience with it?

I know it's a long shot but I thought I'd try it anyway. Thank you.


----------



## Barriej

sadlybroke said:


> I don't want to hijack the thread but my situation is similar to some of the posters so I thought I'd ask for advice here.
> 
> I am a dual UK & Slovak national. I got my first driving license in Slovakia in 1994. I exchanged it for the UK driving license in 2004 when I moved to England. I hold only my UK DL now. We have plans to move to Spain at some point this or next year. However, I do not speak Spanish and, realistically, I won't be able to learn while we are here in the UK. So taking the test in Spanish is not an option.
> 
> I enquired with authorities in Slovakia about the possibility to change my UK license back to the Slovak license, then exchange that for the Spanish one once we move to Spain. However, I was informed that I can get a Slovak DL only after 6 months after I register for permanent residency in the country. That's not an option as in that case my kids would have to go to schools in Slovakia and we do not have plans to do so. We just don't want to move to Slovakia for 6 months just to get the DL and be able to move on to Spain.
> 
> However, I was also told that the Slovak authorities are able to issue a certificate (a copy of the Driver's Registration Card) which states that I got my DL in Slovakia in 1994 and that it was exchanged for the UK DL in 2004. The question is - do you think the Spanish authorities will accept such a certificate and exchange my UK DL for a Spanish one? Does anyone have any experience with it?
> 
> I know it's a long shot but I thought I'd try it anyway. Thank you.


Ive just checked and it appear not.
No 3 will trip you up. As your Slovak one is not valid.
The text below is from the DGT.

*The documents you have to provide to the authorities for the exchange are:*

*Your passport.*
*Proof of legal residence (for foreigners, this is the Número de Identificación de Extranjero or NIE)*
*The driving license to be exchanged, which has to be currently valid.*
*Two photographs (passport size)*


----------



## MataMata

If that's from DGT then you'd think they'd know that an NIE is NOT proof of residency!


----------



## Barriej

MataMata said:


> If that's from DGT then you'd think they'd know that an NIE is NOT proof of residency!


You would be surprised (but I doubt it as Im sure you have had experience here) 
There are lots of errors in the translations (also I think its an old version that I referred to).

As to information. At the TIE fingerprint appointment, the lady told me to bring different documents when I collect the card to the info stapled to the front of the form. 
And then my wife, who was sat at the next desk was told something different again. 
I smiled at the lady and she just shrugged back. 

So we will take everything.
But thats Spain for you.


----------



## Muddy

Barriej said:


> I see you have commented before I got my post in.
> Didn't know that the system was different to the UK one.
> 
> 
> You need to get your lawyer to appeal this.
> 
> If you pre registered and you had your residence application in before the end of Dec (and hopefully you would have had the Resolucion De Concession) as long as that was dated before 31st Dec 2020.
> They SHOULD have excepted your licence exchange.
> In fact I think even if the Resolution was after 1st Jan they should still have accepted your exchange.
> 
> I know this is not much help now, but there were two ways of making the exchange. (both required the 'medical')
> 
> 1. the 'old' way whereby you or an agent takes your licence, the form and your residency document (the Resolution letter was eacceptable) to the DGT before the end of Dec 2020. They would then have processed it an your new Spanish licence would have arrived about 3 months later.
> 2. The 'newer' way. Pre register before 22nd Dec (cause that was the cut off) and then once you had your residency (TIE) get an appointment to make the exchange.
> 
> But as long as you pre registered before the cut off they should not have refused you. You need to ensure that the DGT did confirm your driving status with the DVLA.
> 
> With respect to the residency. As a first time applicant, the process for the new TIE should have been done online. You didn't need any appointments, it was completely automatic, and on average resolutions were being given after approx 2-3 weeks. (the wait for the fingerprint appointment was long, we waited nearly 4 months). And to be honest Ive spoken to a couple of people who made the same comment about a lack of appointments and didn't know the first part was electronic (you could go in person but why would you?, unless your gestor or solicitor didn't have the digital certificate)
> 
> The resolution document is the start date for your residency. (i.e. mine was dated 18/11/2020 so my 5 year TIE expires 17/11/2025, my fingerprint appointment was 12/03/2021)
> 
> So I suppose they are saying as you didn't register for residence before the end of last year, they wont accept your exchange.


Hi Barriej, and thanks very much for the long detailed reply which really helps work through steps I've taken.

I've been very busy since my previous post trying to solve this problem, so far I have failed.
I've been in touch with both embassies, calls and emails, citizens advice, a free help line I found on another site, the DGT and now waiting to speak to a very busy lawyer in detail about this horrible situation I'm in.

I'll reply to posts individually as I'm so tired of chasing this driving licence problem my brain isn't working and I might get lost in multi quotes!

Yes the system for an EU application for residency is different. And in a way part of the problem, but it shouldn't have been! To be clear about this it's the EU residency application process that caused my problem, it didn't afford me equal access, or do I dare say equal rights in registering my intent for residency, my urgent need but only because of needing to exchange my UK driving licence!
A fundamental error IMO in the way the UK driving licence exchange was designed and implemented.

I don't know to be honest how everything works, I paid people to help me, including a lawyer. But as far as I know when someone makes a TIE application (which I did not) the date of residency is taken from that point in time.
Not so when using an EU passport! This is the link I had to use, a friend and a lawyer and we all failed to get an appoint via this link. Proceso automático para la solicitud de cita previa 
You do not get an account, you just had to keep trying over and over again in the hope you would get lucky and get an appointment.
I tried many hundreds of times on this link, but I didn't get one. In the end a friend got through over the phone, that was back in December 2020. But the appointment was given for January 2021 for the foreign office, first appointment to show all my documents including my ex-18 form, not ex-20!
This office didn't know southern Ireland is part of the EU, and refused at first to continue checking my documents, even thought my EU passport was in front of him! After one of the staff went out to make a call I presume to check, when they returned they then continued checking my documents. No problems with that apart from very rude staff, which is fine as long as it gets done.

To try and answer your statements:
Yes I pre registered my driving licence with DGT via 060

Now it gets complicated.
I got through to the foreign off in December 2020 over the phone, who then gave me an appointment but for January 2021.
Ok because I didn't handle most of this process I might be incorrect about some info.
I don't ever remember seeing anything regarding "Resolucion De Concession)" Is this because I did an EU application for residency using EX-18!! Now I just remembered something. They didn't send me a letter I was waiting for, it never arrived. No idea if they sent it. I think that was given to my representative on the day of my first appointment. I was able to check online and see residency was aproved, but I don't remember seeing the letter.
So maybe this is where it went wrong for me  But the residency is dated mid January anyway!
But I did get my Residency green card dated in January!! And I remember an extension given to the end of January for something but I can't remember what that was for and may not be of any use with my problem.
In regards to a medical I was told I didn't need one as I had almost 9 years left on my UK licence!

Ok, Re your "1. the 'old' way
The DGT said in December on the phone when appointment booked they wouldn't exchange my licence without my green card. They didn't not say at that time residency card had to be issued by end of December 2020!
So I did have an appointment booked for December with the DGT but because of what they said I didn't attend as I didn't have my green card, or at that time didn't know it would be approved for sure lets say!

"2. The 'newer'"
I registered with the DGT mid November 2020.
And just to say again, I did not do a TIE, and the DGT said when appointment booked with them over phone, they would need to see my residency card to process the licence exchange. They never mentioned a deadline, but did state you have until end of June 2021 to exchange!!!!!

"You need to ensure that the DGT did confirm your driving status with the DVLA."
Yes I did this at the DGT office, and again when I phoned them recently to be 100% sure.

"With respect to the residency. As a first time applicant, the process for the new TIE should have been done online."
As I said I didn't do a TIE. Mine was an EU passport used for residency application using EX-18.
This is the cause of all my problems!!!!!
*It is not automatic with an EU residency application*. I had no choice, I had to visit the foreign office during lockdown, a complete joke really, but this is how they do it! If it was equal I would be getting my driving licence I beleve.
You do not get into any system when using an EU passport, you only get that link I pasted above, you keep trying and you get know where, no appointments given over months of trying.
The lawyer I used does have a digital certificate, he failed trying to register my application, it was denied because he was trying to do that with my EU passport!!!
My assumption what the foreign office and or DGT done was gave priority to UK TIE applications as they had to get residency before end of 2020. But where they dropped the ball (maybe) was I also needed to have residency before end of 2020 IF, what they are now saying is correct. Even as an EU citizen I needed to have residency before 31 December 2020 for them to exchange me UK driving licence.

"on average resolutions were being given after approx 2-3 weeks."
Well as I finally got through on phone a few days into the beginning of December, but like I said the actual first face to face residency appointment was dated mid January!

"(the wait for the fingerprint appointment was long, we waited nearly 4 months)"
I didn't need to have fingerprints taken, as I'm an EU citizen, that's what I was told, and I got my residency card in mid January without having to do prints!

"The resolution document is the start date for your residency "
I'm not sure on this point, I don't think there is a resolution document with an EU passport residency application!
Hence the problem perhaps because I was given residency appointment over the phone at the start of December for mid January, so in theory I should have had enough time. But they never sent me the letter out, so maybe that was it!

"So I suppose they are saying as you didn't register for residence before the end of last year, they wont accept your exchange."
It seems so, but the EU residency application system was not equal to the TIE application process, so it didn't let me register several months back into last year!!! I think this in part or all the reason why I didn't get given an appointment in December, or the resolution letter in December. I couldn't get into the system because their is no equivalent system when using an EU passport to apply for residency.
If it was the same as a TIE I would have been in the system several months back into 2020 

Sorry that was so long, but it helps me to go through point by point.


----------



## Muddy

MataMata said:


> I'm a bit confused now.
> 
> Are you saying that despite having an Irish passport because you couldn't get a TIE appt. you actually applied using your UK one?
> 
> If so that may have been a mistake but it raises (yet another) conundrum to do with that pesky Irish border.
> 
> Technically regardless of Brexit NI citizens are also EU citizens and entitled to dual UK and Irish passports. They are also perfectly entitled to hold UK (British) driving licences and for those who do not actually reside in NI but in England that is the only licence available to them.
> 
> As an EU citizen theoretically your right to exchange a licence falls under the existing EU directive, the conundrum is whether somebody moving to Spain with an an Irish passport but a British licence does in fact still fall under the directive for an exchange or is ensnared in the Brexit fallout which is forcing it.
> 
> As laudable as wanting to be legal in Spain is your core misstep might have been in applying for a TIE at all, or at least not waiting until things had calmed down and systems and procedures returned to something like pre panic levels of pressure.
> But I still have only a UK driving licence that expires here at end of June, so I had to go through this process to try and exchange my licence.
> UK driving licence exchange should have been equal for everyone, or at least for the time being extended it further as I'm falling between the cracks of these two types of residency application.
> 
> For EU citizens problems like this can be referred to SOLVIT


"Are you saying that despite having an Irish passport because you couldn't get a TIE appt. you actually applied using your UK one?"
Thanks for reply MataMata. 
No. I used my EU passport because I was told by my lawyer not to swap ID's when doing things here and I've done everything with my EU passport from ariving, nothing with my UK ID. I was also told it would be a simpler residency application. I don't think so now.
Just to clarify, it's an Southern Ireland EU passport I'm referring to that I used for everything in Spain.

"As an EU citizen theoretically your right to exchange a licence falls under the existing EU directive, the conundrum is whether somebody moving to Spain with an an Irish passport but a British licence does in fact still fall under the directive for an exchange or is ensnared in the Brexit fallout which is forcing it. "
I think you probably hit the nail on the head with that comment.
I regret greatly now not using my UK passport, it's stupid that I would have to do that to avoid losing my right to drive, I never thought this mess would unfold like this.

"As laudable as wanting to be legal in Spain is your core misstep might have been in applying for a TIE at all, or at least not waiting until things had calmed down and systems and procedures returned to something like pre panic levels of pressure"
I think it wouldn't have been a problem, I after my post on this issue spoke to the Irish and British embassies and was told I could have done an TIE, but would need to show more documentation. I was worried about failing residency for some stupid reason, I should have instead been very worried about being tripped up by some red tape and not being able to exchange my driving licence.
As I said previously in another post, if the EU residency application process was equal with the TIE system I would have had my licence exchanged. I know this because people later then I are getting the licence exchanged!
So much for EU equality.
Thanks I'll take a look at SOLVIT.


----------



## Barriej

Muddy said:


> Hi Barriej, and thanks very much for the long detailed reply which really helps work through steps I've taken.
> 
> I've been very busy since my previous post trying to solve this problem, so far I have failed.
> I've been in touch with both embassies, calls and emails, citizens advice, a free help line I found on another site, the DGT and now waiting to speak to a very busy lawyer in detail about this horrible situation I'm in.
> 
> I'll reply to posts individually as I'm so tired of chasing this driving licence problem my brain isn't working and I might get lost in multi quotes!
> 
> Yes the system for an EU application for residency is different. And in a way part of the problem, but it shouldn't have been! To be clear about this it's the EU residency application process that caused my problem, it didn't afford me equal access, or do I dare say equal rights in registering my intent for residency, my urgent need but only because of needing to exchange my UK driving licence!
> A fundamental error IMO in the way the UK driving licence exchange was designed and implemented.
> 
> I don't know to be honest how everything works, I paid people to help me, including a lawyer. But as far as I know when someone makes a TIE application (which I did not) the date of residency is taken from that point in time.
> Not so when using an EU passport! This is the link I had to use, a friend and a lawyer and we all failed to get an appoint via this link. Proceso automático para la solicitud de cita previa
> You do not get an account, you just had to keep trying over and over again in the hope you would get lucky and get an appointment.
> I tried many hundreds of times on this link, but I didn't get one. In the end a friend got through over the phone, that was back in December 2020. But the appointment was given for January 2021 for the foreign office, first appointment to show all my documents including my ex-18 form, not ex-20!
> This office didn't know southern Ireland is part of the EU, and refused at first to continue checking my documents, even thought my EU passport was in front of him! After one of the staff went out to make a call I presume to check, when they returned they then continued checking my documents. No problems with that apart from very rude staff, which is fine as long as it gets done.
> 
> To try and answer your statements:
> Yes I pre registered my driving licence with DGT via 060
> 
> Now it gets complicated.
> I got through to the foreign off in December 2020 over the phone, who then gave me an appointment but for January 2021.
> Ok because I didn't handle most of this process I might be incorrect about some info.
> I don't ever remember seeing anything regarding "Resolucion De Concession)" Is this because I did an EU application for residency using EX-18!! Now I just remembered something. They didn't send me a letter I was waiting for, it never arrived. No idea if they sent it. I think that was given to my representative on the day of my first appointment. I was able to check online and see residency was aproved, but I don't remember seeing the letter.
> So maybe this is where it went wrong for me  But the residency is dated mid January anyway!
> But I did get my Residency green card dated in January!! And I remember an extension given to the end of January for something but I can't remember what that was for and may not be of any use with my problem.
> In regards to a medical I was told I didn't need one as I had almost 9 years left on my UK licence!
> 
> Ok, Re your "1. the 'old' way
> The DGT said in December on the phone when appointment booked they wouldn't exchange my licence without my green card. They didn't not say at that time residency card had to be issued by end of December 2020!
> So I did have an appointment booked for December with the DGT but because of what they said I didn't attend as I didn't have my green card, or at that time didn't know it would be approved for sure lets say!
> 
> "2. The 'newer'"
> I registered with the DGT mid November 2020.
> And just to say again, I did not do a TIE, and the DGT said when appointment booked with them over phone, they would need to see my residency card to process the licence exchange. They never mentioned a deadline, but did state you have until end of June 2021 to exchange!!!!!
> 
> "You need to ensure that the DGT did confirm your driving status with the DVLA."
> Yes I did this at the DGT office, and again when I phoned them recently to be 100% sure.
> 
> "With respect to the residency. As a first time applicant, the process for the new TIE should have been done online."
> As I said I didn't do a TIE. Mine was an EU passport used for residency application using EX-18.
> This is the cause of all my problems!!!!!
> *It is not automatic with an EU residency application*. I had no choice, I had to visit the foreign office during lockdown, a complete joke really, but this is how they do it! If it was equal I would be getting my driving licence I beleve.
> You do not get into any system when using an EU passport, you only get that link I pasted above, you keep trying and you get know where, no appointments given over months of trying.
> The lawyer I used does have a digital certificate, he failed trying to register my application, it was denied because he was trying to do that with my EU passport!!!
> My assumption what the foreign office and or DGT done was gave priority to UK TIE applications as they had to get residency before end of 2020. But where they dropped the ball (maybe) was I also needed to have residency before end of 2020 IF, what they are now saying is correct. Even as an EU citizen I needed to have residency before 31 December 2020 for them to exchange me UK driving licence.
> 
> "on average resolutions were being given after approx 2-3 weeks."
> Well as I finally got through on phone a few days into the beginning of December, but like I said the actual first face to face residency appointment was dated mid January!
> 
> "(the wait for the fingerprint appointment was long, we waited nearly 4 months)"
> I didn't need to have fingerprints taken, as I'm an EU citizen, that's what I was told, and I got my residency card in mid January without having to do prints!
> 
> "The resolution document is the start date for your residency "
> I'm not sure on this point, I don't think there is a resolution document with an EU passport residency application!
> Hence the problem perhaps because I was given residency appointment over the phone at the start of December for mid January, so in theory I should have had enough time. But they never sent me the letter out, so maybe that was it!
> 
> "So I suppose they are saying as you didn't register for residence before the end of last year, they wont accept your exchange."
> It seems so, but the EU residency application system was not equal to the TIE application process, so it didn't let me register several months back into last year!!! I think this in part or all the reason why I didn't get given an appointment in December, or the resolution letter in December. I couldn't get into the system because their is no equivalent system when using an EU passport to apply for residency.
> If it was the same as a TIE I would have been in the system several months back into 2020
> 
> Sorry that was so long, but it helps me to go through point by point.


Wow. Thanks for the info. It may be of some help to others in the same position.

I think the issue here stems from the fact you have a Southern Irish passport and a UK drivers licence. 
Im assuming the authorities here would have expected you to have had one issued in the country of your birth (stupid I know. My daughter is British and only holds an Australian licence as thats where she took her test)

You are correct about the pre registration for the driving licence exchange BUT it was quite clear on the DGT website that as long as you had got your uk licence checked by 31st December you had until the end of June 2021 to make the physical appointment to exchange. 

For my sins, the solicitor we used for our residency uses an agent for the driving licence. The Resolution letter (or email) was sufficient to prove residency so my licence was changed the 'old' way.

I dont think the system allows for many variations to be honest. Someone honestly thought that subject A from country A would have a driving licence from country A.
The situation regarding Ireland and its relationship with the Uk has always been a cause for misinterpretation.

I hope you can get this resolved favourably, or Spain will agree a licence exchange soon.


----------



## Muddy

Barriej said:


> Wow. Thanks for the info. It may be of some help to others in the same position.
> 
> I think the issue here stems from the fact you have a Southern Irish passport and a UK drivers licence.
> Im assuming the authorities here would have expected you to have had one issued in the country of your birth (stupid I know. My daughter is British and only holds an Australian licence as thats where she took her test)
> 
> You are correct about the pre registration for the driving licence exchange BUT it was quite clear on the DGT website that as long as you had got your uk licence checked by 31st December you had until the end of June 2021 to make the physical appointment to exchange.
> 
> For my sins, the solicitor we used for our residency uses an agent for the driving licence. The Resolution letter (or email) was sufficient to prove residency so my licence was changed the 'old' way.
> 
> I dont think the system allows for many variations to be honest. Someone honestly thought that subject A from country A would have a driving licence from country A.
> The situation regarding Ireland and its relationship with the Uk has always been a cause for misinterpretation.
> 
> I hope you can get this resolved favourably, or Spain will agree a licence exchange soon.


Hi Barriej, you're a lot quicker than me at typing so that reply of mine was like climbing Everest.
To clarify slightly although I doubt it makes any difference! not sure.
I'm born in the UK, I've inherrited Irish citizenship automatically, applying for the passport is up to whoever wants to, or in my case thought it would make things easier in Spain. Of course I was wrong when it comes to my UK driving licence.

"I dont think the system allows for many variations to be honest. Someone honestly thought that subject A from country A would have a driving licence from country A."
Exactly, they didn't think about the grey area in the middle i.e. Me!

Thank you, I hope they do agree, but what do I do as the days tick by. I can't live here without a car, not a single shop for miles, or kilometers I should say.


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## Overandout

This situation is probably not as rare as we think and sooner or later it will probably get sorted out. 

When I lived in Thailand, they issued most westerners with Thai driving licences without doing the exams or tests (just the medicals) based on their home country licences, but when I went along with my Spanish licence I was told by the Thai authorities that "I had the wrong licence" being British but having a Spanish licence. I convinced them that this wasn't a problem in the EU and they should accept it, which they finally agreed to do so as long as the Spanish emabssy provided a translation to English of the licence.
The Spanish embassy however do not provide translations of documents, so I was finally told that I could just get a translation stamped by the Spanish embassy.
So along I went to the Spanish embassy in Bangkok with the translation printed out, and at the door was asked for my passport. The Guardia Civil looked at it and told me that I was at the wrong embassy... evntually I convinced him that as I was a Spanish resident (showing him my green certificate) with a Spanish licence I needed this service from the Spanish authorities and he let me in.
When I got to see someone I explained all this and they informed me that they don't validate translations, and asked me who had prepared the translation. I replied that I had done it myself and that I didn't need to validate the translation, just get a stamp on it, that caused some humourous responses from the Spanish at the embassy.
After some negotiation, they wrote some disclaimer on the paper along the lines of "this stamp does not guarantee the accuracy of the translation" and stamped it.
I smuggly went back to Thai traffic department and was issued with my two Thai driving licences, one for cars and one for motorcycles! 
I hope you can squirm your way through too at some point!


----------



## Muddy

Overandout said:


> This situation is probably not as rare as we think and sooner or later it will probably get sorted out.
> I hope you can squirm your way through too at some point!


Thanks Overandout.
Interesting story, now all I need to do is squirm my way into the foreign office and get them to backdate my green card as I've actually met all the conditions for residency for over a year prior to application. Yeah pigs will fly. 
Somehow I think the door will be firmly shut in my face though. They don't care.


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## MataMata

Not a lot of comfort for you but I suspect quite a few who have leapt aboard the inherited Irish passports liferaft may ultimately find themselves in a similar situation and find it to have been be a pyrrhic victory and poison chalice.


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## kaipa

I know lots of people who have the new TIE who have been here less than 5 years but some 4 and a bit who went to change their green cards
Their TIEs now register their start date as from the new TIE date meaning they will now have to wait another 5 years before they get permanent residency
A friend asked this when they picked card up and were told they are not backdated. A bit of a bummer and a reminder to probably wait until your 5 years are up when you get automatic permanent residency.


----------



## xabiaxica

kaipa said:


> I know lots of people who have the new TIE who have been here less than 5 years but some 4 and a bit who went to change their green cards
> Their TIEs now register their start date as from the new TIE date meaning they will now have to wait another 5 years before they get permanent residency
> A friend asked this when they picked card up and were told they are not backdated. A bit of a bummer and a reminder to probably wait until your 5 years are up when you get automatic permanent residency.


They don't have to wait.

The system knows from when they were originally registered & they can change for a permanent one 5 years from that date.


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## MataMata

kaipa said:


> I know lots of people who have the new TIE who have been here less than 5 years but some 4 and a bit who went to change their green cards
> Their TIEs now register their start date as from the new TIE date meaning they will now have to wait another 5 years before they get permanent residency
> A friend asked this when they picked card up and were told they are not backdated. A bit of a bummer and a reminder to probably wait until your 5 years are up when you get automatic permanent residency.


Utter bo**ocks!


----------



## Muddy

MataMata said:


> Not a lot of comfort for you but I suspect quite a few who have leapt aboard the inherited Irish passports liferaft may ultimately find themselves in a similar situation and find it to have been be a pyrrhic victory and poison chalice.


Not nice to read but right now at least I couldn't disagree. Ironically I didn't need to use my EU ID, but in a logical world why the f would anyone want to make a residency application harder if they had EU ID. Before anyone says it, logic and Spain in the same sentence I believe right now could probably be classed as an oxymoron. No insult intended, just how I feel.


----------



## Megsmum

Muddy said:


> Not nice to read but right now at least I couldn't disagree. Ironically I didn't need to use my EU ID, but in a logical world why the f would anyone want to make a residency application harder if they had EU ID. Before anyone says it, logic and Spain in the same sentence I believe right now could probably be classed as an oxymoron. No insult intended, just how I feel.


I have dual citizenship. We are registered under our UK passport. If the withdrawal agreement had not been as it was, which did allow us as UK citizens to remain with protection, I would have registered again using my Irish citizenship.


----------



## Muddy

Barriej said:


> I think that where the licence was issued is the deciding factor, not the nationality or the passport held.
> Would be happy to be corrected if wrong.
> 
> The Uk .gov website posted an update earlier today to say they were in talks to provide a full exchange scheme.
> Wouldn't hold my breathe but at least it looks like something is happening.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Living in Spain
> 
> 
> Information for British citizens moving to or living in Spain, including guidance on residency, healthcare and passports.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.gov.uk


Does anyone have copies of the text of this page as its been updated over time?
Google cache at least seems to have updated today 27 Apr 2021 08:23:02 GMT , and the previous update of the that page is shown as 19 April 2021.
I know they show the updates, but I want independent info on what has been changed if possible as this doesn't show true real text edits!


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## Muddy

Megsmum said:


> I have dual citizenship. We are registered under our UK passport. If the withdrawal agreement had not been as it was, which did allow us as UK citizens to remain with protection, I would have registered again using my Irish citizenship.


Hi Megsmum
I think ironically my EU ID hasn't afforded me the same level of, how can I put it, equal ease of access to the residency process, therefore hindering my licence exchange.


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## Megsmum

Muddy said:


> Hi Megsmum
> I think ironically my EU ID hasn't afforded me the same level of, how can I put it, equal ease of access to the residency process, therefore hindering my licence exchange.


Yes yours is a complex issue. Can you not apply for an Irish passport now??


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## Muddy

Megsmum said:


> Yes yours is a complex issue. Can you not apply for an Irish passport now??


Thanks for reply. I think you mean Irish driving licence. If what I read a long while ago is still current and correct then no I couldn't as I've not lived there since I was very young. But I'll check into it just in case.
edit: Just looking on citizensinformation.ie It seems an unlikely option Quote "you usually live here for at least 185 days in each calendar year. "


----------



## Joppa

Muddy said:


> Thanks for reply. I think you mean Irish driving licence. If what I read a long while ago is still current and correct then no I couldn't as I've not lived there since I was very young. But I'll check into it just in case.
> edit: Just looking on citizensinformation.ie It seems an unlikely option Quote "you usually live here for at least 185 days in each calendar year. "


If the example of UK is anything to go by, you cannot sit your driving test or take out provisional licence until you have lived in the country for 6 months.


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## MataMata

You can only apply for a driving licence in the country in which you are officially resident so Irish passport or not if you are not actuary resident there then there is no way to obtain an Irish licence.


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## Megsmum

Sorry I'm confused I thought op was a UK resident in Eire.


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## Joppa

MataMata said:


> You can only apply for a driving licence in the country in which you are officially resident so Irish passport or not if you are not actuary resident there then there is no way to obtain an Irish licence.


As an Irish citizen, you have right of abode in Ireland so you are deemed to be resident in Ireland as soon as you set foot in it, but driving licence regulation stipulates you have to be living for 6 months before you can take the test and obtain your licence. This is an EU-wide requirement to stop EU citizens popping over the border to pass and obtain another licence and continue driving in their home country after being banned from driving. Germans used to go to the Netherlands to obtain a new licence to get around the driving ban imposed by the German court.


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## Roy C

I had a call today from my gestor to say she is booking my licence exchange appointment after we had or initial appointment in December . She also wanted to check how many licences i held. Apparently some people hold more than one.


----------



## Muddy

Megsmum said:


> Sorry I'm confused I thought op was a UK resident in Eire.


If you were referring to myself then I'm born UK resident, inherited Irish citizenship through parents, and just got my Spanish green card back in Jan this year, and DGT have refused to exchange UK driving licence.


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## Phil Squares

I, too, am an Irish citizen with a UK driver's license living in Spain. However, our transfer was before Brexit. Three years ago, we jumped through the hoops to obtain a Spain license. No one blinked an eye about having a UK license and being an Irish citizen. I would expect the same to happen. Pre or Post Brexit is shouldn't make any difference at all.


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## Roy C

Muddy said:


> If you were referring to myself then I'm born UK resident, inherited Irish citizenship through parents, and just got my Spanish green card back in Jan this year, and DGT have refused to exchange UK driving licence.


Why have they refused? I'm an irish citizen by birth, with a uk licence and mine seems to be going through, as in i attended DGT, they took copies of my licence, green card and irish passport in December last year. I paid the fee and havs to go back to hand in my licsnce in May to progrsss the exchange. The exact same is happening with my aife aho is a UK citizen. How far in the process did you get with yours?


----------



## Muddy

Phil Squares said:


> I, too, am an Irish citizen with a UK driver's license living in Spain. However, our transfer was before Brexit. Three years ago, we jumped through the hoops to obtain a Spain license. No one blinked an eye about having a UK license and being an Irish citizen. I would expect the same to happen. Pre or Post Brexit is shouldn't make any difference at all.


It shouldn't make any difference but sadly the DGT seem to think differently (now) but nothing about this when two appointments booked towards end of year. Their website does not make it clear, but they are going to say it does I'm sure.
The DGT are claiming I require residency before 1 Jan 2021, I got mine mid Jan. They're not taking any notice of my EU Citizenship or EU passport, or that I registered well before 31 Dec 2020 to exchange my UK driving licence.


----------



## xabiaxica

Muddy said:


> It shouldn't make any difference but sadly the DGT seem to think differently (now) but nothing about this when two appointments booked towards end of year. Their website does not make it clear, but they are going to say it does I'm sure.
> The DGT are claiming I require residency before 1 Jan 2021, I got mine mid Jan. They're not taking any notice of my EU Citizenship or EU passport, or that I registered well before 31 Dec 2020 to exchange my UK driving licence.


You're not the only person who is having this problem, but I don't think that it's anything to do with your passport!


----------



## Muddy

Roy C said:


> Why have they refused? I'm an irish citizen by birth, with a uk licence and mine seems to be going through, as in i attended DGT, they took copies of my licence, green card and irish passport in December last year. I paid the fee and havs to go back to hand in my licsnce in May to progrsss the exchange. The exact same is happening with my aife aho is a UK citizen. How far in the process did you get with yours?


DGT didn't give anything in writing BTW. They have refused because my residency is dated this January. They said it had to be dated last year.
As you done yours in December I think answers why you didn't have a problem perhaps.
I got an appointment several months back into last year but couldn't attend as DGT said you can't exchange without residency card.
I tried for months and hundreds of times to get a residency appointment but couldn't get confirmation of an appointment from foreign office until near end of December. But the actual appointment they gave was mid Jan this year.
I then didn't attend DGT for first appointment because they said they wouldn't process the exchange without the greed card. No mention from them about residency deadline.
Foreign office didn't send out my letter approving residency, so I didn't get the actual card until my 2nd appointment in March.
I booked another appointment with DGT, and got one beginning of April and they refused on the grounds that I didn't have residency by 31 Dec 2020.
I showed my green card. My NIE and Padron which was in force for over a year to Dec last year, and of course my EU passport but they were not interested in any of my documents apart from the date on the green card.


----------



## Roy C

Roy C said:


> Why have they refused? I'm an irish citizen by birth, with a uk licence and mine seems to be going through, as in i attended DGT, they took copies of my licence, green card and irish passport in December last year. I paid the fee and have to go back to hand in my licence in May to progress the exchange. The exact same is happening with my aife aho is a UK citizen. How far in the process did you get with yours?


I have to stop using my thumbs on my phone to type, I can't edit out the typos now on the original post. 🙄😁


----------



## Muddy

xabiaxica said:


> You're not the only person who is having this problem, but I don't think that it's anything to do with your passport!


Hi xabiaxica
Yeah I was having a moan possibly just for the fact my original lawyer told me things would be easier using my EU ID, but it hasn't helped me with exchange of licence.
But actually it is because of my EU passport, because if I had done a TIE with my UK passport I would now be getting my UK driving licence exchanged!
I, and anyone else using EU ID trying to get residency wasn't given equal access to registering their intent within the same time-frame because UK passport holders were given priority! Person helping was told this later. Two very different systems. TIE gets you logged as soon as your details get done online. The EU passport option you just keep trying and trying, no appointments given for months, your details are not logged with the foreign office that you intend to register when you keep trying to get appointment via the different website link you have to use when using an EU passport!!
And in my case when a friend finally got through to the Foreign office in December, the 1st appointment they gave me was in January this year.

edit: I agree passport might not be the exact or only reason, but my EU ID has delayed my residency, and I'm going to guess Foreign office and DGT have assumed Irish passport = Irish driving licence = lower priority, not taking into account at the beginning of the process this person actually has a UK driving licence, so residency for this person is equal priority to Brexit only people!
And if those EU passport people can't get into the system for months because they don't have equal access to registering their residency then the systems in place have let them down IMO.


----------



## kaipa

Unfortunately, if you haven't been able to exchange your licence, instead of trying to convince officials, I would start preparing for the Spanish test. My ex did it and it took about 3 months I think.


----------



## Muddy

kaipa said:


> Unfortunately, if you haven't been able to exchange your licence, instead of trying to convince officials, I would start preparing for the Spanish test. My ex did it and it took about 3 months I think.


I'm nowhere near any shops at all, nothing, so 3 months is very bad news.


----------



## kaipa

Muddy said:


> I'm nowhere near any shops at all, nothing, so 3 months is very bad news.


That doesn't sound great. You could keep trying to argue your case but my experience with these things is once you have tried a few times nothing changes. However, without a licence you will be trapped and you will have no other options


----------



## MataMata

There's always the no licence micro car option, not great but as they say a second class ride beats a first class walk!


----------



## Barriej

MataMata said:


> There's always the no licence micro car option, not great but as they say a second class ride beats a first class walk!


Are you saying those little things with the yellow plate dont require a licence?
So does that mean the moped things with the yellow plate are the same as well?

Some of those cars look quite nice, and you would never get a speeding ticket now in town since the limit went to 20kph (I tried to go that slow in Benidorm on Monday and a cyclist went past me) Cant wait to see if they get fined and how they will issue the ticket


----------



## trotter58

Muddy said:


> DGT didn't give anything in writing BTW. They have refused because my residency is dated this January. They said it had to be dated last year.
> As you done yours in December I think answers why you didn't have a problem perhaps.
> I got an appointment several months back into last year but couldn't attend as DGT said you can't exchange without residency card.
> I tried for months and hundreds of times to get a residency appointment but couldn't get confirmation of an appointment from foreign office until near end of December. But the actual appointment they gave was mid Jan this year.
> I then didn't attend DGT for first appointment because they said they wouldn't process the exchange without the greed card. No mention from them about residency deadline.
> Foreign office didn't send out my letter approving residency, so I didn't get the actual card until my 2nd appointment in March.
> I booked another appointment with DGT, and got one beginning of April and they refused on the grounds that I didn't have residency by 31 Dec 2020.
> I showed my green card. My NIE and Padron which was in force for over a year to Dec last year, and of course my EU passport but they were not interested in any of my documents apart from the date on the green card.


I don't think the refusal was anything to do with the date of your residency application. You had to register details of your UK licence with the DGT before 31st December 2020. This was to allow the DGT to check your licence with the DVLA before the Brexit deadline. You didn't need your TIE card to complete the form and once the form was accepted you had until 1st June 2021 to complete the exchange.

We didn't receive our TIE cards until the end of Feb'21, we then made an appointment with DGT in the middle of March using the completed pre registration form. Our Spanish licences have been (allegedly) posted out at the end of April and we should receive them in a few days.

I suspect the the UK/Spanish driving licence exchange will recommence soon, like the availability of S1's and the now valid EHIC cards. I would be very surprised if you had to take a Spanish driving test, if that was the case I would be tempted to continue to use my UK licence with the appropriate IDP.


----------



## xabiaxica

trotter58 said:


> I don't think the refusal was anything to do with the date of your residency application. You had to register details of your UK licence with the DGT before 31st December 2020. This was to allow the DGT to check your licence with the DVLA before the Brexit deadline. You didn't need your TIE card to complete the form and once the form was accepted you had until 1st June 2021 to complete the exchange.
> 
> We didn't receive our TIE cards until the end of Feb'21, we then made an appointment with DGT in the middle of March using the completed pre registration form. Our Spanish licences have been (allegedly) posted out at the end of April and we should receive them in a few days.
> 
> I suspect the the UK/Spanish driving licence exchange will recommence soon, like the availability of S1's and the now valid EHIC cards. I would be very surprised if you had to take a Spanish driving test, if that was the case* I would be tempted to continue to use my UK licence with the appropriate IDP.*


...which would be illegal for a resident.


----------



## Megsmum

trotter58 said:


> I don't think the refusal was anything to do with the date of your residency application. You had to register details of your UK licence with the DGT before 31st December 2020. This was to allow the DGT to check your licence with the DVLA before the Brexit deadline. You didn't need your TIE card to complete the form and once the form was accepted you had until 1st June 2021 to complete the exchange.
> 
> We didn't receive our TIE cards until the end of Feb'21, we then made an appointment with DGT in the middle of March using the completed pre registration form. Our Spanish licences have been (allegedly) posted out at the end of April and we should receive them in a few days.
> 
> I suspect the the UK/Spanish driving licence exchange will recommence soon, like the availability of S1's and the now valid EHIC cards. I would be very surprised if you had to take a Spanish driving test, if that was the case I would be tempted to continue to use my UK licence with the appropriate IDP.





xabiaxica said:


> ...which would be illegal for a resident.


I'm way behind the news!

UK continuing to issue S1s when we retire?

EHICs. Are you referring to tourists?


----------



## kaipa

This thing about S1 has been going around in circles for ages. I thought it was only available for those resident before last December. Various persons are now saying its available for all when retired. Not sure what the real situation is


----------



## xabiaxica

kaipa said:


> This thing about S1 has been going around in circles for ages. I thought it was only available for those resident before last December. Various persons are now saying its available for all when retired. Not sure what the real situation is


The S1 thing was a last minute addition. 

They will continue to be issued by the UK to those eligible moving here after Dec 31 2020, but it seems from reports by those applying for NLVs, that private insurance is still required for the application.


----------



## Joppa

kaipa said:


> This thing about S1 has been going around in circles for ages. I thought it was only available for those resident before last December. Various persons are now saying its available for all when retired. Not sure what the real situation is


There was a last-minute agreement with EU to extend the validity of UK-issued S1 for those becoming EU resident from 1st January 2021, but only for UK state pensioners and not those who are eligible for certain other exportable benefits. 
Healthcare for UK nationals living in Spain - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk) under S1.


----------



## Megsmum

Actually I think I remember now. Yes it's available to those resident before December last year


----------



## xabiaxica

Megsmum said:


> Actually I think I remember now. Yes it's available to those resident before December last year


...and to those (eligible) becoming resident since then, if you mean the S1.


----------



## Beach buddy

I have just read a post(another Forum)from a gentleman who has just been fined €600 for not having a Spanish driving Licence! Not a happy bunny!


----------



## kaipa

Any one who has been a resident for more than 2 years should have changed their licence therefore it's perfectly legal to be fined. It has nothing to do with Brexit


----------



## Localizer

Beach buddy said:


> I have just read a post(another Forum)from a gentleman who has just been fined €600 for not having a Spanish driving Licence! Not a happy bunny!


... Think I saw the same thing - person had become resident in 2019, but kept his Canadian driving license and also had an International Driving Permit - neither of which helped him avoid the fine as Residencia status trumps them both.


----------



## Muddy

kaipa said:


> That doesn't sound great. You could keep trying to argue your case but my experience with these things is once you have tried a few times nothing changes. However, without a licence you will be trapped and you will have no other options


Hi all and thanks for the replies, an update a month down the road...
I think you might be correct! No change over the last month, I've made very little progress. I'm now being told to go back to the foreign office by my lawyer.




MataMata said:


> There's always the no licence micro car option, not great but as they say a second class ride beats a first class walk!


I've seen them about, always sounds like the engine or gearbox is about to fall out but they keep running. Sounds like they're always stuck in 1st gear to me, but going that slow maybe they only have a 1st gear lol



trotter58 said:


> I don't think the refusal was anything to do with the date of your residency application. You had to register details of your UK licence with the DGT before 31st December 2020. This was to allow the DGT to check your licence with the DVLA before the Brexit deadline. You didn't need your TIE card to complete the form and once the form was accepted you had until 1st June 2021 to complete the exchange.
> 
> We didn't receive our TIE cards until the end of Feb'21, we then made an appointment with DGT in the middle of March using the completed pre registration form. Our Spanish licences have been (allegedly) posted out at the end of April and we should receive them in a few days.
> 
> I suspect the the UK/Spanish driving licence exchange will recommence soon, like the availability of S1's and the now valid EHIC cards. I would be very surprised if you had to take a Spanish driving test, if that was the case I would be tempted to continue to use my UK licence with the appropriate IDP.


Sorry I didn't see your reply a month ago. 
It was everything to do with the date on my residency application sadly!
Green residency card dated 2021 was the reason given by the DGT for refusing to exchange my driving licence.
This I've confirmed twice with the DGT over the phone on 060!
I did register my UK driving licence with DGT well before 31st December 2020.
My licence was checked and verified. DGT told me at appointment they had my details and verified with DVLA, and over the phone twice since then.
I didn't do a TIE. I'm a dual national, I hold an EU passport, and now have a green card but dated in January 2021.
I believe the driving licence exchange was to the end of June, not the 1st of June, but now that has been extended to 31 December 2021.
TIE v green residency card! My point I made previously. If you used a EU passport to register your residency you didn't get equal treatment with regards to the date you get registered. Completely different system, different website link, and completely useless and not fit for purpose as much as I hate that phrase it's true. Getting appointment over the phone proved almost impossible, and even though I was issued an appointment last year to take place in January that didn't give me a date on my green card of last year, but the TIE system would have given me a date of registration last year which sadly has made a joke out of having an EU passport, at least in my case, and the reason the DGT will not exchange my driving licence.
Bad planning and implementation which equals discrimination, but of course not deliberate, and I'm sure will make some people laugh that an EU citizen had less rights and or not equal access to the residency system. But sadly it seems to be the case IMO.

I hope you're correct and David Hunt is working with the Spanish government on an agreement, but I and many others have less than 4 weeks to drive in Spain with no update on agreeing a UK driving licence exchange.

The system for doing some things is a complete mess, these are not my words but I won't quote who told me that.

There was an update from the British embassy Madrid online 27 May 2021. This has filtered down to many websites, but I've spoken twice to the DGT and they are unaware of these recent changes.
These apparent changes to the rules in theory would allow documents dated 2021 to be used to exchange your UK driving licence.
But if the DGT don't know about these changes when you speak with them there is little hope with only 4 weeks remaining to drive on a UK driving licence in Spain.
I also found out the my DGT office didn't record that they rejected my driving licence exchange. So even if the new rules are in force the DGT would never and still will not contact me to now implement the new rules and exchange my driving licence.
For some reason this latest update to the rules posted 27 May 2021 at 7:30 have not been published by the DGT or gov.uk websites, but is on social media site for the British embassy Madrid.




xabiaxica said:


> ...which would be illegal for a resident.


Some people laugh at me because I'm trying to do everything legal.


----------



## Roy C

We went to trafico on Dec 15th with our agent, we paid for the exchanges, registered our docs, passport copies etc but left still with our UK licences. We then went back last week, we had to give our residency card and TIE (wife's) card and licences to our agent, she disappeared into the office and came back with our docs except the licences, we now have a cover note and she said our licences will be in the post.


----------



## kaipa

Roy C said:


> We went to trafico on Dec 15th with our agent, we paid for the exchanges, registered our docs, passport copies etc but left still with our UK licences. We then went back last week, we had to give our residency card and TIE (wife's) card and licences to our agent, she disappeared into the office and came back with our docs except the licences, we now have a cover note and she said our licences will be in the post.


Yep that is how it normally works although when I did mine it took months ( 6) until I actually received my Spanish licence and that was 2 years ago.


----------



## Roy C

kaipa said:


> Yep that is how it normally works although when I did mine it took months ( 6) until I actually received my Spanish licence and that was 2 years ago.


I won't hold my breath then but will update when we get them, thanks.


----------



## xabiaxica

Muddy said:


> Hi all and thanks for the replies, an update a month down the road...
> I think you might be correct! No change over the last month, I've made very little progress. I'm now being told to go back to the foreign office by my lawyer.
> 
> 
> 
> I've seen them about, always sounds like the engine or gearbox is about to fall out but they keep running. Sounds like they're always stuck in 1st gear to me, but going that slow maybe they only have a 1st gear lol
> 
> 
> Sorry I didn't see your reply a month ago.
> It was everything to do with the date on my residency application sadly!
> Green residency card dated 2021 was the reason given by the DGT for refusing to exchange my driving licence.
> This I've confirmed twice with the DGT over the phone on 060!
> I did register my UK driving licence with DGT well before 31st December 2020.
> My licence was checked and verified. DGT told me at appointment they had my details and verified with DVLA, and over the phone twice since then.
> I didn't do a TIE. I'm a dual national, I hold an EU passport, and now have a green card but dated in January 2021.
> I believe the driving licence exchange was to the end of June, not the 1st of June, but now that has been extended to 31 December 2021.
> TIE v green residency card! My point I made previously. If you used a EU passport to register your residency you didn't get equal treatment with regards to the date you get registered. Completely different system, different website link, and completely useless and not fit for purpose as much as I hate that phrase it's true. Getting appointment over the phone proved almost impossible, and even though I was issued an appointment last year to take place in January that didn't give me a date on my green card of last year, but the TIE system would have given me a date of registration last year which sadly has made a joke out of having an EU passport, at least in my case, and the reason the DGT will not exchange my driving licence.
> Bad planning and implementation which equals discrimination, but of course not deliberate, and I'm sure will make some people laugh that an EU citizen had less rights and or not equal access to the residency system. But sadly it seems to be the case IMO.
> 
> I hope you're correct and David Hunt is working with the Spanish government on an agreement, but I and many others have less than 4 weeks to drive in Spain with no update on agreeing a UK driving licence exchange.
> 
> The system for doing some things is a complete mess, these are not my words but I won't quote who told me that.
> 
> There was an update from the British embassy Madrid online 27 May 2021. This has filtered down to many websites, but I've spoken twice to the DGT and they are unaware of these recent changes.
> These apparent changes to the rules in theory would allow documents dated 2021 to be used to exchange your UK driving licence.
> But if the DGT don't know about these changes when you speak with them there is little hope with only 4 weeks remaining to drive on a UK driving licence in Spain.
> I also found out the my DGT office didn't record that they rejected my driving licence exchange. So even if the new rules are in force the DGT would never and still will not contact me to now implement the new rules and exchange my driving licence.
> For some reason this latest update to the rules posted 27 May 2021 at 7:30 have not been published by the DGT or gov.uk websites, but is on social media site for the British embassy Madrid.
> 
> 
> 
> Some people laugh at me because I'm trying to do everything legal.


The deadline for exchange if your intention to exchange was pre-registered is now Dec 31 2021




__ https://www.facebook.com/BritsInSpain/posts/3633354630102245



Also...



> If you have attempted to complete the exchange of your licence since 1 January but your application was rejected due to your TIE being dated to 2021, the DGT office will get in touch with you directly to arrange for the completion of the exchange. If this is your situation, and you do not hear anything after a few weeks, you should request an appointment with the DGT.


----------



## Muddy

Roy C said:


> We went to trafico on Dec 15th with our agent, we paid for the exchanges, registered our docs, passport copies etc but left still with our UK licences. We then went back last week, we had to give our residency card and TIE (wife's) card and licences to our agent, she disappeared into the office and came back with our docs except the licences, we now have a cover note and she said our licences will be in the post.


Hi Roy C
The big difference with my situation is the DGT turned me away, looked at my driving licence, Pardron and green card and then turned me away as my green card is dated in Jan 2021.
They are refusing to exchange my driving licence.
I didn't attend my first appointment in Dec at DGT because they said I needed a residency card. Depending what you read that could have been wrong advice!
But they never said, but you'll be too late when you come back next year with residency dated in 2021.

Would you mind telling what was the date your lawyer put you on the TIE online?
And what date has been entered on your paper TIE etc?

My appointment was given late December 2020 for January, but with an EU passport.
So my residency card is dated in January.
Now this is a big problem for me.
There has been an update over a week ago from the Madrid embassy that might be a solution, but this update doesn't seem to be on the DGT or gov.uk


----------



## Muddy

xabiaxica said:


> The deadline for exchange if your intention to exchange was pre-registered is now Dec 31 2021
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/BritsInSpain/posts/3633354630102245
> 
> 
> 
> Also...


Thanks for the reply xabiaxica
Yes I was referring to that FB update from the 27 May in my reply to Roy C
But I didn't do a TIE, so it's not clear in my situation as I used my EU passport so I didn't have access to the same system as you get with a TIE.
Tried for months to get a residency appointment last year. Could not get one online, but over the phone around 10 days before end of year 2020, they gave me a residency appointment for mid January.
But the date they put on my green card is mid January, not from the date I was given the appointment. That sounds stupid to say, but I'm making the comparison between the TIE online system that apparently gives you a date last year when your details are registered on the system. Can anybody confirm this?

When using an EU passport you can't use the same system. It rejects the passport ID.
So I had to use a different web link, which fell over a lot, and in the end I couldn't get an appointment that way! And that page didn't register the date you were trying to get an appointment.
So my residency card is dated mid January same as my first foreign office appointment, and that's why now DGT refused to exchange my UK driving licence.

I pre registered my UK driving licence at the beginning of November 2020.
I have proof of residency for 2020 with a Padron but DGT were not interested.
I phoned the DGT several times and they confirmed my residency card had to be dated before 2021.
I spoke to two different staff at DGT yesterday, both of them didn't know about the extension to exchange to end of 2021.
I new this change last week on the 27 May because I asked someone on one of the support groups and she told me about it. But why hasn't gov.uk or the DGT not updated their websites in 8 days about this important change!
Not everyone uses the so called social media sites.

I also found out yesterday the DGT never recorded their refusal to exchange my licence.
And their is nothing on my file to say I will be contacted in future about having my licence exchanged.

I've clearly been disadvantaged using my EU passport. If I had used my British passport and gone through a TIE I would now be getting my UK driving licence exchanged.
The Irish embassy have ignored my last email and phone call when I told them this is a residency issue, it is very clear to see this process has gone very wrong using my EU passport.

After speaking with many organizations including several embassies and support groups and my lawyer I've been told there are at least hundreds of people that have been refused to have their driving licences exchanged by the DGT.

There is also quote that I'm hoping will apply in my situation usign an EU passport and not going through a TIE, which in theory would let anyone with documents dated in 2021 still be able to exchange their UK driving licence.

Quote from FB page Madrid Embassy.
"_If you have attempted to complete the exchange of your licence since 1 January but your application was rejected due to your TIE being dated to 2021, the DGT office will get in touch with you directly to arrange for the completion of the exchange._ "


----------



## Barriej

Roy C said:


> I won't hold my breath then but will update when we get them, thanks.


Mine was exchanged in December through an agent and it took 3 months for the licence to appear. 
That was Alicante, but it seems to vary as my neighbour still hasn't recieved hers and she did the swap around the same time. 
If your temp notice runs out you will need to get another one.


----------



## Roy C

Muddy said:


> Hi Roy C
> The big difference with my situation is the DGT turned me away, looked at my driving licence, Pardron and green card and then turned me away as my green card is dated in Jan 2021.
> They are refusing to exchange my driving licence.
> I didn't attend my first appointment in Dec at DGT because they said I needed a residency card. Depending what you read that could have been wrong advice!
> But they never said, but you'll be too late when you come back next year with residency dated in 2021.
> 
> Would you mind telling what was the date your lawyer put you on the TIE online?
> And what date has been entered on your paper TIE etc?
> 
> My appointment was given late December 2020 for January, but with an EU passport.
> So my residency card is dated in January.
> Now this is a big problem for me.
> There has been an update over a week ago from the Madrid embassy that might be a solution, but this update doesn't seem to be on the DGT or gov.uk


Hi Muddy
My green card was issued on the date of my appointment early Oct, dated and stamped with the appointment date. My wife had her TIE first fingerprint appointment Nov 10th and the card is dated from that appointment. When we attended DGT in December we showed our paperwork, she only had the paperwork from her first appointment to show her residency status which they accepted. We then went last week, handed in our UK licences and showed residents cards and are now awaiting the Spanish licence via post. Hope this helps.


----------



## xabiaxica

Muddy said:


> Hi all and thanks for the replies, an update a month down the road...
> I think you might be correct! No change over the last month, I've made very little progress. I'm now being told to go back to the foreign office by my lawyer.
> 
> 
> 
> I've seen them about, always sounds like the engine or gearbox is about to fall out but they keep running. Sounds like they're always stuck in 1st gear to me, but going that slow maybe they only have a 1st gear lol
> 
> 
> Sorry I didn't see your reply a month ago.
> It was everything to do with the date on my residency application sadly!
> Green residency card dated 2021 was the reason given by the DGT for refusing to exchange my driving licence.
> This I've confirmed twice with the DGT over the phone on 060!
> I did register my UK driving licence with DGT well before 31st December 2020.
> My licence was checked and verified. DGT told me at appointment they had my details and verified with DVLA, and over the phone twice since then.
> I didn't do a TIE. I'm a dual national, I hold an EU passport, and now have a green card but dated in January 2021.
> I believe the driving licence exchange was to the end of June, not the 1st of June, but now that has been extended to 31 December 2021.
> TIE v green residency card! My point I made previously. If you used a EU passport to register your residency you didn't get equal treatment with regards to the date you get registered. Completely different system, different website link, and completely useless and not fit for purpose as much as I hate that phrase it's true. Getting appointment over the phone proved almost impossible, and even though I was issued an appointment last year to take place in January that didn't give me a date on my green card of last year, but the TIE system would have given me a date of registration last year which sadly has made a joke out of having an EU passport, at least in my case, and the reason the DGT will not exchange my driving licence.
> Bad planning and implementation which equals discrimination, but of course not deliberate, and I'm sure will make some people laugh that an EU citizen had less rights and or not equal access to the residency system. But sadly it seems to be the case IMO.
> 
> I hope you're correct and David Hunt is working with the Spanish government on an agreement, but I and many others have less than 4 weeks to drive in Spain with no update on agreeing a UK driving licence exchange.
> 
> The system for doing some things is a complete mess, these are not my words but I won't quote who told me that.
> 
> There was an update from the British embassy Madrid online 27 May 2021. This has filtered down to many websites, but I've spoken twice to the DGT and they are unaware of these recent changes.
> These apparent changes to the rules in theory would allow documents dated 2021 to be used to exchange your UK driving licence.
> But if the DGT don't know about these changes when you speak with them there is little hope with only 4 weeks remaining to drive on a UK driving licence in Spain.
> I also found out the my DGT office didn't record that they rejected my driving licence exchange. So even if the new rules are in force the DGT would never and still will not contact me to now implement the new rules and exchange my driving licence.
> For some reason this latest update to the rules posted 27 May 2021 at 7:30 have not been published by the DGT or gov.uk websites, but is on social media site for the British embassy Madrid.
> 
> 
> 
> Some people laugh at me because I'm trying to do everything legal.


I hope you can get it sorted out - but I suspect that because this was a Brexit based concession aimed at British citizens, you might be out of luck.


----------



## Muddy

Roy C said:


> Hi Muddy
> My green card was issued on the date of my appointment early Oct, dated and stamped with the appointment date. My wife had her TIE first fingerprint appointment Nov 10th and the card is dated from that appointment. When we attended DGT in December we showed our paperwork, she only had the paperwork from her first appointment to show her residency status which they accepted. We then went last week, handed in our UK licences and showed residents cards and are now awaiting the Spanish licence via post. Hope this helps.


Thanks for the reply Roy C
When you say "green card was issued on the date of my appointment" was that when your TIE was done with your lawyer, or do you mean when you went to the foreign office in Oct?
Sorry my brain is so very tired. I think you mean the latter at your actual appointment?
I have heard of people having appointments in 2021, but the TIE registration was done in 2020 when using a lawyer to do it. That fixed the date when the lawyer entered the TIE online back in 2020 etc.
This then protected them and paperwork was dated 2020 so driving licence exchange is going ahead.


----------



## Muddy

xabiaxica said:


> I hope you can get it sorted out - but I suspect that because this was a Brexit based concession aimed at British citizens, you might be out of luck.


Thank you xabiaxica, I hope I can get it sorted. I fear you're correct, should have used my UK passport. Seems almost impossible now, I just keep hitting a brick wall with this and only a few weeks left to drive now.


----------



## Roy C

Muddy said:


> Thanks for the reply Roy C
> When you say "green card was issued on the date of my appointment" was that when your TIE was done with your lawyer, or do you mean when you went to the foreign office in Oct?
> Sorry my brain is so very tired. I think you mean the latter at your actual appointment?
> I have heard of people having appointments in 2021, but the TIE registration was done in 2020 when using a lawyer to do it. That fixed the date when the lawyer entered the TIE online back in 2020 etc.
> This then protected them and paperwork was dated 2020 so driving licence exchange is going ahead.


Mine wasn't a TIE I'm an Irish citizen although i have a UK licence i have the green residency card not the TIE my wife has the TIE and her driving application is detailed in my previous post.


----------



## Muddy

Roy C said:


> Mine wasn't a TIE I'm an Irish citizen although i have a UK licence i have the green residency card not the TIE my wife has the TIE and her driving application is detailed in my previous post.


Thank you for the reply.
I'm a dual national UK and Ireland, but I used my Irish EU passport for residency, but unlike yourself I didn't get the appointment with foreign office until Jan 2021 and residency card dated that day, and that's why the DGT are refusing to exchange my UK driving licence.
They wouldn't except my Padron even though it proves my residency in 2020.


----------



## Roy C

Muddy said:


> Thank you for the reply.
> I'm a dual national UK and Ireland, but I used my Irish EU passport for residency, but unlike yourself I didn't get the appointment with foreign office until Jan 2021 and residency card dated that day, and that's why the DGT are refusing to exchange my UK driving licence.
> They wouldn't except my Padron even though it proves my residency in 2020.


I do hope you get a positive resolution. I bet the tax office would accept your padron as proof of residency.


----------



## Muddy

Roy C said:


> I do hope you get a positive resolution. I bet the tax office would accept your Padron as proof of residency.


Thank you. Yes you got in one, the tax office had my bill waiting for me last year with all my details correct, it's paid, they have me in their system, so does the town hall, I paid the purchase tax when I got my place, all that was easy as pie! But now the Padron and all my paperwork is apparently useless in a simple driving license exchange.


----------



## MataMata

The problem here is not one of residency but a disconnect due to you being an EU (Irish) citizen yet perfectly legitimately in possession of a UK licence.

The problem for DGT is that since Jan 1st they no longer have access to the DVLA to verify UK licences as they are required to do by the controlling EU directive and without that an exchange is not possible.

Art. 7.5 of the directive states:

(c) Member States shall take the necessary measures
pursuant to point (b). The necessary measures as regards
the issue, replacement, renewal or exchange of a driving
licence shall be to verify with other Member States where
there are reasonable grounds to suspect that the appli-
cant is already the holder of another driving licence;

(d) In order to facilitate the checks pursuant to point (b),
Member States shall use the EU driving licence network
once it is operational.

Theoretically there is potential workaround for the situation which is in DVLA issuing a 'Certificate of Entitlement' which they will do on demand over the phone and on payment of a fee of £5. This is a document which confirms your entitlement to your licence and is essentially what DGT will have been getting from DVLA prior to Dec 31st.

There is _slim_ chance that because you are an EU citizen you are still able to avail yourself of the services of SOLVIT and certainly contacting them can do no harm.

The *HUGE* problem with that is if Spain/DGT could be persuaded by SOLVIT to accept such a certificate in these circumstances it blows their entire strategy of denying UK citizens an exchange completely out of the water as they all have the right to obtain said certificate!


----------



## Muddy

MataMata said:


> The problem here is not one of residency but a disconnect due to you being an EU (Irish) citizen yet perfectly legitimately in possession of a UK licence.
> 
> The problem for DGT is that since Jan 1st they no longer have access to the DVLA to verify UK licences as they are required to do by the controlling EU directive and without that an exchange is not possible.
> There is _slim_ chance that because you are an EU citizen you are still able to avail yourself of the services of SOLVIT and certainly contacting them can do no harm.
> 
> The *HUGE* problem with that is if Spain/DGT could be persuaded by SOLVIT to accept such a certificate in these circumstances it blows their entire strategy of denying UK citizens an exchange completely out of the water as they all have the right to obtain said certificate!


Thanks for the reply MataMata.
Sorry I perhaps didn't make it clear in my last post but I did a month ago.
I registered with the DGT my intent to exchange my licence back in November 2020.
DGT have confirmed on my appointment and over the phone that my UK driving licence was verified by the DVLA last year.

I might be mistaken but I think SOLVIT state if you're using a lawyer they will not take the case on, but I might be remembering that wrong! Plus they state something about taking 10 weeks, hence why I got a lawyer involved, but that hasn't helped me so far as foreign office have refused to change the date of my residency even though I have proof of residency last year.

I think my only hope is the latest update on the 27 May by Madrid embassy. I've also seen a more detailed post on the Citizens advice site which has a "Circular to gestors from the DGT "
This seems iron clad when referencing a TIE dated 2021, great news. I'm hoping this will also apply in my situation also, as it states the Padron can now be used to prove residency.

Quote. _"In the case where citizens do not have this TIE, they can verify their residency in Spain before December 31.2020 under any means accepted by law. To this effect it would be sufficient to show a certificate (not volant) of padron dated before the 30/12/2021 and exceeding 185 days_. "


----------



## MataMata

I happened on this which might could potentially have a bearing on your situation.





__





Page not found







www.rsa.ie





Also a potential spanner in the works for those who believe an Irish passport isolates them from the effects of Brexit especially if hoping to use it to take up residency in the future.

Of course to obtain an Irish licence one needs to be resident there.


----------



## Muddy

MataMata said:


> I happened on this which might could potentially have a bearing on your situation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Page not found
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rsa.ie
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also a potential spanner in the works for those who believe an Irish passport isolates them from the effects of Brexit especially if hoping to use it to take up residency in the future.
> 
> Of course to obtain an Irish licence one needs to be resident there.


Thanks for the reply.
Well it shows clearly what a mess Brexit has made, Ireland and Northern Ireland licence holders at least shouldn't have been required to exchange IMO.

These useless politicians have made it harder to get a driving licence than a passport. It's a fundamental right and should have been fully protected and not time limited IMO. I'm proof it hasn't been protected using an EU passport and a UK driving licence.
The Irish embassy have turned their backs on me and stated they would not help with this matter.
My UK licence exchange is being refused because I used my Irish passport, my right to use it for residency and make this a simpler residency process has made a joke of by the DGT because they've required residency to exchange a UK driving licence, but not allowing exchange with an EU passport and EU residency!
Requirement for residency and using my Irish passport doesn't fit the rules here. The polititions didn't plan for it, let alone think about it.
It's very clear the UK, Irish and Spanish goverment never spent much if any time planning one of the most important rights for people with mixed ID's. I've since been told there are at least hundreds of people in the same situation as I am.
Taking away someones right to drive is preventing their right to freedom of movement, and freedom to work and live. It's a basic fundamental right, and no goverment should be allowed to take it away, unless you go pass several speed cams too quick.
Unequal systems for doing residency between UK and EU passports is a complete joke. The exchange should have been protected on what driving licence you hold, not on the ID you used for residency application, which they made a requirement restricted to the withdrawal agreement.
There are plenty of other countries that have driving licence exchange agreements with Spain including Japan, Korea, Switzerland etc.

Deadlines have moved, and moved yet again because it's a mess, now for Spain to exchange a UK licence until 31 December 2021. But without an extension to drive past the end of June or an agreement between the UK and Spanish governments to exchange UK licences beyond the current deadlines (no update from David Hunt), in just a few weeks time it will leave myself and many others stranded.


----------



## MataMata

I doubt we'll be hearing anything more on the topic from David Hunt.









David Hunt


Mr David Hunt was appointed Her Majesty’s Ambassador to the Republic of Lithuania in succession to Mr Simon Butt who has retired from the Diplomatic Service. Mr Hunt will take up his appointment on 27 June. Mr Hunt joined the FCO in 2001 from the Private Sector and was most recently Deputy Head...




www.gov.uk


----------



## Roy C

It'll be interesting to see if my Spanish licence turns up then, a UK licence but I'm an Irish citizen.


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## Muddy

Roy C said:


> It'll be interesting to see if my Spanish licence turns up then, a UK licence but I'm an Irish citizen.


I think I remember you saying your residency was dated last year so you shouldn't have a problem.

Mine is dated this year and that's why DGT have refused to exchange, incorrectly I believe for at least two different reasons.
EU I.d. shouldn't force me into a Brexit lane, and the law already stated residency could be proved with a Pardon, but the DGT ignored this!

But now with latest rule changes to n 27 May in theory should let me exchange, but the problem is the DGT don't know about these changes apart from new exchange date deadline.
And it doesn't help if gov.uk can't be bothered to update this change either 11 days later.


----------



## MataMata

Muddy said:


> the law already stated residency could be proved with a Pardon


Can you point to where it says that in actual law?

Many of those who in the past weeks attempted to get on an aeroplane in the UK discovered that a padron was definitely NOT considered proof of residency, quite rightly too because it's not.


----------



## Muddy

MataMata said:


> Can you point to where it says that in actual law?
> 
> Many of those who in the past weeks attempted to get on an aeroplane in the UK discovered that a padron was definitely NOT considered proof of residency, quite rightly too because it's not.


If the Padron isn't proof of residency then why was I asked to bring that to the Foreign Office as part of my paperwork!
Without it I wouldn't have got residency! It's a rule and grey area and you have to comply, but this applies to getting residency, not getting on a plane in the UK.
I'm not sure what getting on a plane has to do with this, I know nothing about what the UK airports are asking for to fly here.
I wasn't giving a black or white answer to the requirements because I don't think there is one.
I think the DGT make their own rules up as they go along.
But my lawyer told me I could prove residency in 2020 with all my documents and the Padron start date is an important part of that.
Of course I got my residency based on these documents already but the foreign office ignored the fact that I can prove residency in 2020, hence my problem with DGT requiring green card dated back in 2020 and not in 2021.

I did quote this in a previous post:
"Quote. _"In the case where citizens do not have this TIE, they can verify their residency in Spain before December 31.2020 under any means accepted by law. To this effect it would be sufficient to show a certificate (not volant) of padron dated before the 30/12/2021 and exceeding 185 days_. " "


https://www.citizensadvice.org.es/british-driving-licence-exchange-extended-six-months-to-december-31-2021/





https://www.inclusion.gob.es/ficheros/brexit/Instruccion-conjunta-Brexit-residencia-EN-.pdf


Quote: "2 It is recalled that in Spain, pursuant to Article 7.5 of Royal Decree 240/2007 of 16 February, citizens of the Union are obliged to apply for a registration certificate if they wish to reside in Spain for more than three months, without prejudice to the fact that *Article 14.4 allows proof of resident status by any means of proof admitted in law.* For their part, family members, in accordance with Article 8, must obtain a residence cardfor the family member of the Union citizen. "

A Padron would be permissible in law as it ties in your property and taxes and when you first registered proving for many they were in Spain from that date _exceeding 185 days_, and you have banking to back that up, if you were actually living here and not pretending to be. Proving residency and getting on a plane in the UK are two very different things, and this is a reality of brexit.


----------



## Barriej

Muddy said:


> If the Padron isn't proof of residency then why was I asked to bring that to the Foreign Office as part of my paperwork!
> Without it I wouldn't have got residency! It's a rule and grey area and you have to comply, but this applies to getting residency, not getting on a plane in the UK.


We were refused the Padron when we went to sign on in September for our residency application (although Alicante say they wont process without).

After a lengthy conversation in Spanglish and help from the English speaking cleaner in the town hall, they phoned the foreigners office to ask them. Again after a lengthy and animated conversation and hand gestures.
We were then given Padron papers with "temporary use for residency, return with card' written across it. They also made a note on the computer when they gave them to us.
We went back down a month or so and bumped into the cleaner and she asked if we had our TIE yet (we live in a very small town) So we went in the town hall with her and updated the Padron.
But different towns do things differently and I have heard stories of councils checking up to see if people were actually living there and if found not to be were being removed from the list.

So no you dont need the Padron because you need to be a resident to go on it, but as with most paperwork systems here in Spain.
What the law says is one thing, the way the people and indeed the local government interpret the law is another thing.

Our Solicitor did say, if they wont give you the Padron get them to write why not on a letter head. They have used this method before and it worked (so again it actually shows that its not needed) because if a council says they wont give it the foreigners office still accept that. 

The paperwork for residency under the WA, didn't mention Padron at all, it said that you had to demonstrate you were living in the country under normal means and you could provide the written proof.

The Padron is only a paper that shows you signed on to the council list, it cannot prove residency nor can the deeds to your house.
General living expenses and payment in and out of the bank are the most important documents for proving you live here.
Thats why many people who arrived in December have had their residency applications refused, even though they had Padron but could not prove they were LIVING here.
Also if the Padron proved the date you stated being a resident, why is that date not the one on your TIE?
The date on the TIE is when you were officially proved to be resident. Nothing else comes close.

But thats the fun thing here, rules is rules but not on the second tuesday of the month, if my dog buried its blue ball. But they are the rules if it bit the postman and I have tuna for lunch. 

Welcome to the madness.
Id write a book about it but I doubt anyone outside of Spain would believe me.


----------



## MataMata

After so many posts it's getting hard to keep a handle on the situation so just to put this in a nutshell this is how I see this.


In light of the approaching end of the transition period, and with it the severing of DGT's link to DVLA for verifying licence entitlement, DGT established a licence pre-registration scheme which was predicated on individuals having at least applied for residence before Dec 31st.

Receipt and date of response to submission of an EX20 (Resolución favorable por la que se concede la tarjeta de residencia) was deemed to be evidence of an application and individuals were given until the end of June 2021 to follow up and exchange their licences.

As you chose to apply as an Irish citizen however you did not need to go the EX20/TIE route but were able to apply for a green residencia in the same way British citizens had previously been able to but because of backlogs your application was (is) recorded as having been submitted in Jan 2021 thus, according to DGT at least, disqualifying you from an exchange.


Sound about right?


This heralds a possible road hump for other British citizens who have gone down the heritage Irish passport route as a workaround for the 90/180 day rule thinking that they can take all the time in the world to become resident - if that is their ultimate aim. Unless UK and Spain come to an agreement as things stand such folk will also find themselves obliged to sign up with a Spanish driving school.


----------



## Muddy

MataMata said:


> After so many posts it's getting hard to keep a handle on the situation so just to put this in a nutshell this is how I see this.
> 
> 
> In light of the approaching end of the transition period, and with it the severing of DGT's link to DVLA for verifying licence entitlement, DGT established a licence pre-registration scheme which was predicated on individuals having at least applied for residence before Dec 31st.
> 
> Receipt and date of response to submission of an EX20 (Resolución favorable por la que se concede la tarjeta de residencia) was deemed to be evidence of an application and individuals were given until the end of June 2021 to follow up and exchange their licences.
> 
> As you chose to apply as an Irish citizen however you did not need to go the EX20/TIE route but were able to apply for a green residencia in the same way British citizens had previously been able to but because of backlogs your application was (is) recorded as having been submitted in Jan 2021 thus, according to DGT at least, disqualifying you from an exchange.
> 
> 
> Sound about right?
> 
> 
> This heralds a possible road hump for other British citizens who have gone down the heritage Irish passport route as a workaround for the 90/180 day rule thinking that they can take all the time in the world to become resident - if that is their ultimate aim. Unless UK and Spain come to an agreement as things stand such folk will also find themselves obliged to sign up with a Spanish driving school.


Close enough ish...
But in theory as I posted previously this should at least solve my problem, not sure about others TBH.
https://www.citizensadvice.org.es/b...ange-extended-six-months-to-december-31-2021/

https://www.inclusion.gob.es/ficheros/brexit/Instruccion-conjunta-Brexit-residencia-EN-.pdf 

But if the DGT that I've spoken to so many times on this now do not know about these latest rules changes post on 27 May as above, then I assume I would be wasting my time going to the DGT office unless the DGT and UK government get their finger out and post these changes on their own websites.
They currently only have the amendment to the exchange of licence now 31 Dec 2021, nothing else in reference to the 27 May info above.

I think the DGT are mistaken in my case at least.
EU citizens shouldn't be bound to a deadline of 31 Dec 2020 IMO.
They should have exchanged with my green card even if it was and is dated after 31 Dec 2020


----------



## MataMata

"If you have attempted to complete the exchange of your licence since 1 January but your application was rejected *due to your TIE being dated to 2021*, the DGT office will get in touch with you directly to arrange for the completion of the exchange."

Let's hope the above isn't meant literally!

The second link doesn't mention driving licences but does refer specifically to beneficiaries of the WA therefore would not appear to be directly relevant to your situation.


----------



## Muddy

MataMata said:


> "If you have attempted to complete the exchange of your licence since 1 January but your application was rejected *due to your TIE being dated to 2021*, the DGT office will get in touch with you directly to arrange for the completion of the exchange."
> 
> Let's hope the above isn't meant literally!
> 
> The second link doesn't mention driving licences but does refer specifically to beneficiaries of the WA therefore would not appear to be directly relevant to your situation.


Yes well I hope it also includes the green card ID and it's not just specific to a TIE. My lawyer agreed I could pessue this path directly with the DGT based on the facebook /SNIP/ .

The snag is: I already checked with the DGT about this, and the DGT office where I went didn't record they refused to exchange my driving licence, and the DGT guy I spoke to has nothing on their computer system to say they will now get in touch with me to exchange my licence.
I have no confidence that office will contact me now to do an exchange.
There seems to be a complete disconnection to calling the DGT and what an actual office knows and does.

Article 7.5 of Royal Decree 240/2007 of 16 February.
Yes it's not specific to driving licence at all, but is specific to "citizens of the Union " and I am so I'll grab that and run with it so to speak. Run with it all the way back into the DGT office and wave it around with an EU flag on top! I'm sure that would get me results


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## MataMata

Just a little something you (and possibly others) may want to add to your pool of info on the topic. 





__





How to Exchange a UK or NI Driving Licence - National Driver Licence Service


How to exchange a UK or NI driving licence for an equivalent Irish driving licence. You can apply online today or by appointment in one of our centres.




www.ndls.ie


----------



## MataMata

Another avenue to explore?









Defending your individual rights


Quick links to information and direct help services for problems associated with your rights under EU law.




ec.europa.eu


----------



## Roy C

Update on mine, UK Licence, Irish citizen, i received my Spanish licence in the post yesterday.


----------



## Muddy

Roy C said:


> Update on mine, UK Licence, Irish citizen, i received my Spanish licence in the post yesterday.


I received mine but very late, and no notification by post that I was told would be sent, no email from the DGT which I was told would be sent with certificate I could print out and keep in car.
There are categories missing off my licence, and I know I'm not the only one this has happened to! Maybe I'll start a new thread on this issue. I wonder how many people have lost categories and didn't notice!


----------



## Barriej

Muddy said:


> I received mine but very late, and no notification by post that I was told would be sent, no email from the DGT which I was told would be sent with certificate I could print out and keep in car.
> There are categories missing off my licence, and I know I'm not the only one this has happened to! Maybe I'll start a new thread on this issue. I wonder how many people have lost categories and didn't notice!


Drivers who have held their Uk licences for more than 20 years will have got allowances that newer drivers don't (like if you pass the car test now in the UK you cannot tow unless you take a separate test).

I lost. B1, D1, D, D1E, fklnpq These require a separate test (in fact fklnpq don't exist here as far as I know)


----------



## Muddy

Barriej said:


> Drivers who have held their Uk licences for more than 20 years will have got allowances that newer drivers don't (like if you pass the car test now in the UK you cannot tow unless you take a separate test).
> 
> I lost. B1, D1, D, D1E, fklnpq These require a separate test (in fact fklnpq don't exist here as far as I know)


Thanks for reply Barriej

I've had full licence for over 20 years.
The categories missing off the Spanish licence were on my new UK plastic licence when I changed it a few years ago in UK.

On exchange of my UK licence for Spanish licence I seem to have lost these:
B1, D1, D1E, and fklnpq. I never had "D"

I've gained some which I think they didn't need to include as they included small motorcycles etc, but the unrestricted size was carried across from UK licence. Maybe they have to be specific about those here.


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## Roy C

I just got mine in the post as expected, I didn't expect an email from the DGT, i got my temp certificate/permit when i surrendered my UK licence which i also had held for over 20 years. The categories i have now on my Spanish licence are B, C1, BE, C1E


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## xicoalc

Put it into context. If you ain't planning om being a trucker any time soon and have come to spain just wanting ro drive a car then happy days


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## Enginerelight

Rubbish. Of course you can tow, just not anything over 750Kgs.


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## Muddy

Roy C said:


> I just got mine in the post as expected, I didn't expect an email from the DGT, i got my temp certificate/permit when i surrendered my UK licence which i also had held for over 20 years. The categories i have now on my Spanish licence are B, C1, BE, C1E


I don't know why the DGT didn't give a temporary certificate/permit at appointment, I did ask, but they said it would be sent by email.
I did get a paper with stamp on it from the medical that was surprised on me at the appointment with DGT, so I carried that in the car. I know some people that didn't have to do a medical.


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## snikpoh

Muddy said:


> I don't know why the DGT didn't give a temporary certificate/permit at appointment, I did ask, but they said it would be sent by email.
> I did get a paper with stamp on it from the medical that was surprised on me at the appointment with DGT, so I carried that in the car. I know some people that didn't have to do a medical.


In theory, you don't need a medical for an exchange (canje) but some places ask for it.


----------



## Muddy

xicoalc said:


> Put it into context. If you ain't planning om being a trucker any time soon and have come to spain just wanting ro drive a car then happy days


This isn't just about hitting the road with a HGV, and why should someone that maybe spent thousands on getting a HGV licence let it be taken away by the Spanish goverment just because they feel like doing that, why would you implement a policy that makes it harder for people moving to a new country, and stop them doing something they may need to keep doing for leisure or work!
When at my appointment they had not duplicated several categories over from my UK licence. They also didn't put my full motorcycle licence category on! When asked they apparently did this on the computer, but the three other categories I mentioned above are missing, and I didn't list also missing, fklnpq. The question has to be asked was this another mistake after being told to check my categories or did they deliberately not copy my categories to my Spanish licence. Is this goverment policy or just some staff at the DGT or medical centre I think in this case that don't know what they're doing.
This was a licence exchange, not a renewal, so I thought this means you get all your categories.

What I need to find is the Spanish driving categories and see maybe does the standard driving categories on it include the my missing categories, but I doubt it.
E.g.
B1
4 wheeled light vehicles - Motor vehicles with four wheels up to 550kg unladen and invalid carriages.

Motor tricycles / quad cycles, 3 or 4 wheeled vehicles with an un-laden weight not exceeding 550kg.

D1. You can drive vehicles with no more than 16 passenger seats and a driver and with a maximum length not exceeding 8 metres with a trailer up to 750kg

D1E. Combinations of vehicles where the towing vehicle is in subcategory D1 and its trailer has a MAM of over 750kg, provided that the MAM of the combination thus formed does not exceed 12000kg, and the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen mass of the towing vehicle.

I might not need D1E, but why should anyone be restricted in not being able to drive a minibus or a large quad!


----------



## Muddy

snikpoh said:


> In theory, you don't need a medical for an exchange (canje) but some places ask for it.


Thanks for the reply snikpoh.
Yes I remember that (canje) was of the option selected on the form etc.
I was told I wouldn't need the medical before I went by someone that helps people with their appointments.
Some are asked to do the medical, some are not, age doesn't seem to be the reason, so unless it's for some of the categories which have the driving years remaining cut in half compared to my UK licence, I don't know.


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## Roy C

I wonder what would happen if someone returned to the UK (not my intention) would you regain all your categories or if you moved to Portugal would they just transfer the Spanish categories.
I hope i can drive a 4x4 on mine as i have had a few Defenders and will probably get another 4x4 of some description.


----------



## Muddy

Roy C said:


> I wonder what would happen if someone returned to the UK (not my intention) would you regain all your categories or if you moved to Portugal would they just transfer the Spanish categories.
> I hope i can drive a 4x4 on mine as i have had a few Defenders and will probably get another 4x4 of some description.


I'm sure category B would let you drive any car or 4x4 so I wouldn't worry.
But it seems quads are split out into a separate category. They can be hard to control, so I assume why it's split off. But if anyone has a full motorcycle licence category it makes no sense to leave B1 off their licence, it's beyond stupid as skill and control required is more for a motorcycle. Please, no offense any quad riders.

It's an important point, if you move to another country, are they going to just look at your current licence and ignore what additional categories you had previously. I think the UK would be fine as the DVLA will have a full record. But go online and get a full copy of everything might be a good idea.


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## MataMata

The EU directive on driving licences states that when exchanging a licence you cannot be deprived of groups which the licence you are surrendering entitles you to, the caveat is that individual national authorities may impose their own medical requirements for any or all groups.

I first exchanged my licence when living in France where medicals are required for groups above B and B1, I opted to not take those and was issued with a licence which initially included groups right up to DE but valid only for one or two years unless I then took the medicals, I didn't so they expired.

I subsequently exchanged that French licence for a Spanish one and was asked by the Gestor I was using if I wanted all my groups included on that to which I said yes. There was an increase in the fee from €30 to €45 but I got a 5 year licence with groups C1, C1E, and D1E included but limited to two years, to retain those I would need to undergo the medicals in 2023 but I probably won't bother.


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## Roy C

Would I be able to drive a motor home if I fancied getting one on my licence?
B, C1, BE, C1E


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## Do28

I have just been through this a coupe of days ago in Cadiz. I exchanged my Dutch driving licence as I was unable to use the UK one due to missing the Brexit deadline of last year for exchange of my UK one. I held a Dutch licence through test and in the days before you could exchange a UK licence for an EU one so it has always been valid. The problem with it is was really old and did not have the C1 on as it pre dates that appearing on licences but am entitled to under the grandfather rights. I had to sit an argue it with them until they finally agreed to write it on the form. I had to do a medical which was done over the road. I have to have the C1 as my motorhome is 5000kg.


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## Do28

Roy C said:


> Would I be able to drive a motor home if I fancied getting one on my licence?
> B, C1, BE, C1E


Yes and with a C1 a motorhome over 3500kg.


----------



## Muddy

MataMata said:


> The EU directive on driving licences states that when exchanging a licence you cannot be deprived of groups which the licence you are surrendering entitles you to, the caveat is that individual national authorities may impose their own medical requirements for any or all groups.
> 
> I first exchanged my licence when living in France where medicals are required for groups above B and B1, I opted to not take those and was issued with a licence which initially included groups right up to DE but valid only for one or two years unless I then took the medicals, I didn't so they expired.
> 
> I subsequently exchanged that French licence for a Spanish one and was asked by the Gestor I was using if I wanted all my groups included on that to which I said yes. There was an increase in the fee from €30 to €45 but I got a 5 year licence with groups C1, C1E, and D1E included but limited to two years, to retain those I would need to undergo the medicals in 2023 but I probably won't bother.


That's interesting MataMata.

Going from what you said it appears I should have had my D1 and D1E copied across to my Spanish licence, but they're missing along with B1.

I had the medical so I think DGT have made a mistake.
I also asked at medical to check all my categories were copied across! They had not completed this correctly because they took my licence back on the appointment and then went on the computer and added my missing categories! But once I received my licence those three categories were missing.
My C1 and C1E have been reduced in years, half the other categories on my Spanish licence!
The expiry on my Spanish licence is around 10 years, but C1 and C1E years cut in half, so I'm losing many years on those etc.

Can you send or post link to what you referenced "*The EU directive on driving licences*"
I found this info but I can't find my exact licence type on that long list, at least nothing with fklnpq at the bottom.




__





EUR-Lex - 32016D1945 - EN - EUR-Lex







eur-lex.europa.eu




I'm also confused on the issue date! When they state this, do they mean the original licence pass date? It would be stupid if it didn't mean that.
I had my UK paper licence changed for a UK plastic licence before coming to Spain etc. But the issue date is a few years ago, but on the back it does show the original pass date for the respective categories, which should mean it's clear what the actual issue date really is! Hope that makes sense.


----------



## MataMata

Unfortunately Spain has never properly observed or implemented the Directive which also states that a licence from another state is valid for it's duration unless it's holder commits an offence attracting a loss of points in which case local administrations can demand an exchange in order for that to take place.

Spain as we know has operated a policy of requiring an exchange within 2 years of becoming resident but even that was been loosely enforced.

There are a number of other areas concerning cars and driving in which Spain, and other EU member states, are non conforming.

In terms of the Directive the UK categories fklnpq have no direct equivalents so will not be reflected on another EU licence however the type of vehicles they apply to may or may not be covered in other countries but under different titles.

An example is q which in UK relates to 2 and 3 wheel vehicles with engine sizes up to 50cc with a maximum speed of 25kph or 15.5mph and extends to trial e-scooters which, AFAIK, Spain has categorised as requiring group AM which classes them with mopeds.


----------



## snikpoh

MataMata said:


> Unfortunately Spain has never properly observed or implemented the Directive which also states that a licence from another state is valid for it's duration unless it's holder commits an offence attracting a loss of points in which case local administrations can demand an exchange in order for that to take place.
> 
> Spain as we know has operated a policy of requiring an exchange within 2 years of becoming resident but even that was been loosely enforced.


Absolutely not the case and never has been. Many Brits talk about it but the DGT have never done that. The UK d/l was always valid until it expired unless the durations didn't meet EU standards (and all UK licences did)


----------



## Do28

Roy C said:


> I wonder what would happen if someone returned to the UK (not my intention) would you regain all your categories or if you moved to Portugal would they just transfer the Spanish categories.
> I hope i can drive a 4x4 on mine as i have had a few Defenders and will probably get another 4x4 of some description.


there is no exchange to do if you go back to the Uk, you just apply for your licence back online and they will send it back to you. There is actually nothing stopping you doing it right now if you had a UK address as the UK is no longer EU you are legally allowed to hold your Spanish and your UK licence at the same time. I have both.


----------



## Barriej

flybe said:


> there is no exchange to do if you go back to the Uk, you just apply for your licence back online and they will send it back to you. There is actually nothing stopping you doing it right now if you had a UK address as the UK is no longer EU you are legally allowed to hold your Spanish and your UK licence at the same time. I have both.


But you exchanged a Dutch licence for the Spanish one to remove the need to now take a test. So if you went back to Holland you would have to surrender the Spanish one to regain the Dutch one....

I exchanged my licence to a Spanish one and it states on the DVLA website I have exchanged my Uk licence to an EU country one, so I and others such as Roy C would have to surrender the Spanish one to reclaim the UK one.

However if you have taken a test here in Spain then yes you can keep both (or many if you have been resident in many countries and taken their tests)


----------



## MataMata

I did say it was 'loosely enforced!'!

DVLA will only issue a licence to UK residents, an address is insufficient to prove that.

If you try to apply online then you have to give your NI number which, if you are paying tax in Spain or have health care via an S1, will reveal the lie and attempted fraud.

A basic group B licence will allow you to drive anything up to 3500kg, you don't need any more for a 4x4 or a Defender.


----------



## Do28

Barriej said:


> But you exchanged a Dutch licence for the Spanish one to remove the need to now take a test. So if you went back to Holland you would have to surrender the Spanish one to regain the Dutch one....
> 
> I exchanged my licence to a Spanish one and it states on the DVLA website I have exchanged my Uk licence to an EU country one, so I and others such as Roy C would have to surrender the Spanish one to reclaim the UK one.
> 
> However if you have taken a test here in Spain then yes you can keep both (or many if you have been resident in many countries and taken their tests)


Yes, my point was that you can hold both at the same time. 

I am not sure where the link to social security number and driving licence is found as I was not asked for my NI number in the UK to renew my UK licence. I just went online , put the driver number in and requested a new licence. Turned up a couple of days later.


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## kaipa

You cant hold a Spanish licence and a UK one, AFAIK. Unless you have done a Spanish test ( I imagine)


----------



## Do28

kaipa said:


> You cant hold a Spanish licence and a UK one, AFAIK. Unless you have done a Spanish test ( I imagine)


Sorry that’s incorrect. The U.K. as you may have noticed is no longer part of the EU and you can’t swap a U.K. licence for a Spanish one and so you can legally hold both. You would indeed need to pass a Spanish test to get a Spanish licence now or do as I did and swap another EU one gained by test. 
I perfectly legally have both U.K. and Spanish licences. 
DVLA have also confirmed that anyone who held a U.K. licence previously and exchanged if or an EU one can apply for it back.


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## kaipa

OK good to know. Must be quite recent. So I just ask DVLA to send me the licence that Spain sent back to them?.


----------



## xabiaxica

flybe said:


> Sorry that’s incorrect. The U.K. as you may have noticed is no longer part of the EU and you can’t swap a U.K. licence for a Spanish one and so you can legally hold both. You would indeed need to pass a Spanish test to get a Spanish licence now or do as I did and swap another EU one gained by test.
> I perfectly legally have both U.K. and Spanish licences.
> DVLA have also confirmed that anyone who held a U.K. licence previously and exchanged if or an EU one can apply for it back.


Isn't that for people who subsequently return to live in the UK?


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## Do28

xabiaxica said:


> Isn't that for people who subsequently return to live in the UK?


Not as far as I understand it. When I spoke to the DVLA they just said that if you have a UK address you are entitled to a UK driving licence based on your original UK licence and they will send it out because the UK is no longer part of the EU. I have addresses in both Spain and the UK and the UK prefer me to drive on a UK licence when in the UK. I assume because its a damn site easier to prosecute and apply points!!!


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## Do28

kaipa said:


> OK good to know. Must be quite recent. So I just ask DVLA to send me the licence that Spain sent back to them?.


Spain, never sent them anything, it will have been shredded locally......


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## vianina

Do28 said:


> Not as far as I understand it. When I spoke to the DVLA they just said that if you have a UK address you are entitled to a UK driving licence based on your original UK licence and they will send it out because the UK is no longer part of the EU. I have addresses in both Spain and the UK and the UK prefer me to drive on a UK licence when in the UK. I assume because its a damn site easier to prosecute and apply points!!!


Did you have to declare addresses for past 3 years, and was any proof required?


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## Roy C

My old property is now a rental property i have, my post is redirected, so basically i could do the same.
I was added to someone's insurance in the UK this week using my Spanish address without any problems. But maybe having my old licence would be handy.


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## Overandout

When you apply for the UK licence to be issued your signature is a declaration of being resident in the UK, so you need to consider how you would prove that to be the case if challenged. Making a flase declaration carries quite a heavy penalty IIRC.


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## Roy C

Ah right, so it's one thing having a property there but if the requirement is to be resident there, then it's a pointless exercise and best to leave as is.


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## MataMata

Do28 said:


> Spain, never sent them anything, it will have been shredded locally......


Not saying it's scrupulously followed but according the the EU Directive the official procedure is for surrendered licences to be returned to the issuing authority, in the case of Brits that's DVLA.


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## kaipa

Why are people saying you can have both uk and Spanish licence?. You might be able to lie by not telling them you are no longer a resident but that is illegal. People here are basically saying because they have got away with various things ( tax, residency etc) then that means it is all perfectly legal. Its is not.


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## Relyat

At least some of these posts appear to breach forum rules and at least one member is making a big issue of respecting these rules.


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## kaipa

Do28 said:


> Not as far as I understand it. When I spoke to the DVLA they just said that if you have a UK address you are entitled to a UK driving licence based on your original UK licence and they will send it out because the UK is no longer part of the EU. I have addresses in both Spain and the UK and the UK prefer me to drive on a UK licence when in the UK. I assume because its a damn site easier to prosecute and apply points!!!


Where is there an official link that says you only need an address in UK for them to send you your UK licence?
Everything I have read says you must be a resident. Did you actually tell them that you were no longer living in UK?


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## Relyat

Driving in the EU after Brexit


There are new requirements for UK licence holders driving within the EU and for EU licence holders driving in the UK.




commonslibrary.parliament.uk





And the relevant extract
"The situation is less certain for those who split their time between the EU and the UK. Drivers can only hold one licence at a time. The type of licence a person has (either UK or EU) is ultimately a choice for them, although it may depend on the number of days each year they live in each country."


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## kaipa

Relyat said:


> Driving in the EU after Brexit
> 
> 
> There are new requirements for UK licence holders driving within the EU and for EU licence holders driving in the UK.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> commonslibrary.parliament.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the relevant extract
> "The situation is less certain for those who split their time between the EU and the UK. Drivers can only hold one licence at a time. The type of licence a person has (either UK or EU) is ultimately a choice for them, although it may depend on the number of days each year they live in each country."


So you can only hold one licence not two


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