# Education in Spain



## xabiaxica

I've decided to try to get education discussions together in one thread

rather than merge a lot of old threads I've linked to some useful ones & closed them so that further discussion will continue here

there are of course others, so if you come across one you find useful, put a link to it on this thread


http://www.expatforum.com/expats/spain-expat-forum-expats-living-spain/5532-how-old-too-old-spanish-state-school.html


http://www.expatforum.com/expats/spain-expat-forum-expats-living-spain/60961-more-educational-differences.html


http://www.expatforum.com/expats/spain-expat-forum-expats-living-spain/4366-homeschooling-spain.html


http://www.expatforum.com/expats/spain-expat-forum-expats-living-spain/58314-moving-costa-blanca-desperate-find-good-state-school-13-year-old.html

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/spain-expat-forum-expats-living-spain/42708-international-schools-malaga-marbella-area.html


http://www.expatforum.com/expats/spain-expat-forum-expats-living-spain/57285-back-school.html


Possibly the most often asked question is about what age children start school here, & will they be held back?

some schools will hold your child back for the first year to help them pick up the language, some will see how it goes & maybe hold back later

the biggest difference in Spanish schools is that the year they are in depends upon the *year* they were born, regardless of the month

*the following is what year your child would be age-appropriate for when the school year starts in September 2012* - going by year of birth

1997 - 4th YEAR SECONDARY
1998 - 3rdYEAR SECONDARY
1999 - 2nd YEAR SECONDARY
2000 - 1st YEAR SECONDARY
2001 - 6th/last YEAR PRIMARY
2002 - 5th YEAR PRIMARY
2003 - 4th YEAR PRIMARY
2004 - 3rdYEAR PRIMARY
2005 - 2nd YEAR PRIMARY
2006 - 1st YEAR PRIMARY
2007 - 3rd/last YEAR INFANTS
2008 - 2nd YEAR INFANTS
2009 - 1st YEAR INFANTS


interesting website with _calendario escolar _ by region, amongst other things

http://www.cyberpadres.com/irescuela/calendarios/home.htm


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## Pesky Wesky

At last!!
This is/ will be one of the most useful stickies ever!


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## BMF Matt

Pesky Wesky said:


> At last!!
> This is/ will be one of the most useful stickies ever!


+1, just what i needed, thanks.

Here's a lnk someone gave to me on another thread on eduation, i found it quite informative.

http://www.practicalspain.com/Education.htm


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## Pesky Wesky

Another couple of links that may be worth looking at.
Please note these are old threads so any comments should be added here, not to the old thread.
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/spain-expat-forum-expats-living-spain/26334-education-again.html

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/spain-expat-forum-expats-living-spain/19179-state-schools.html


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## fourgotospain

Great idea Xabia! I personally am constantly traumatised about having done the right thing so very much like to read as much as possible about it!

I wrote a blog about the school induction process for us in Javea, you can find it here: http://fourgotospain.wordpress.com/2010/04/02/in-a-school-daze/ - hopefully it might help someone...


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## xabiaxica

fourgotospain said:


> Great idea Xabia! I personally am constantly traumatised about having done the right thing so very much like to read as much as possible about it!
> 
> I wrote a blog about the school induction process for us in Javea, you can find it here: In a School Daze Four Go To Spain - hopefully it might help someone...


it wasn't just my idea - us mods do discuss things


yes, I think your blogged experiences will be useful


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## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> Another couple of links that may be worth looking at.
> Please note these are old threads so any comments should be added here, not to the old thread.
> http://www.expatforum.com/expats/spain-expat-forum-expats-living-spain/26334-education-again.html
> 
> http://www.expatforum.com/expats/spain-expat-forum-expats-living-spain/19179-state-schools.html


thanks PW

I've closed the old ones now


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## macdonner

*School uniforms*

Don't know if you will need to move this from the sticky but I was wondering about school uniforms (did a forum search and other threads are closed and didn't really answer my question). I really wanted to know if a primary school in Spain has the same school uniform as is in the UK? As in polo shirt/shirt, grey/black skirt or black/grey trousers? We are planning to move in August next year and so I am thinking that I could save some cash (so I have enough to buy pencils, books and stuff !) if I bought a school uniform as if my daughter was going to school in the UK and then be able to use it for school when we move to Spain? TIA.


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## BMF Matt

I remember seeing somewhere that a lot of the state schools don't have a uniform, whereas most the international ones do. I suspect what is acceptable varies greatly from region to region and school to school. Probably best to contact the specific school to see if they have any guidelines.

Matt.


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## jojo

macdonner said:


> Don't know if you will need to move this from the sticky but I was wondering about school uniforms (did a forum search and other threads are closed and didn't really answer my question). I really wanted to know if a primary school in Spain has the same school uniform as is in the UK? As in polo shirt/shirt, grey/black skirt or black/grey trousers? We are planning to move in August next year and so I am thinking that I could save some cash (so I have enough to buy pencils, books and stuff !) if I bought a school uniform as if my daughter was going to school in the UK and then be able to use it for school when we move to Spain? TIA.


Most state schools in spain dont seem to bother with a uniform, some have them, but they're not enforced. When my daughter was at state school it was like a fashion show every morning, anything went, teeny weeny shorts, jeans, tee shirts with "slogans" on.......! Unlike the international schools, who IME are obsessive to the point of stupidity about uniforms!!!!

Jo xxx


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## macdonner

jojo said:


> Most state schools in spain dont seem to bother with a uniform, some have them, but they're not enforced. When my daughter was at state school it was like a fashion show every morning, anything went, teeny weeny shorts, jeans, tee shirts with "slogans" on.......! Unlike the international schools, who IME are obsessive to the point of stupidity about uniforms!!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


Great, thanks for the info Matt & Jo!I have enough problems getting 7 year old daughter to get her uniform on in the morning (just cos she likes to dawdle ALOT lol) so she might be a bit speedier if I can just pull some clothes out of the drawer and get her to stick them on! Might just buy a couple of sets of trousers/shirts etc over here before we move as they are pretty cheap nowadays and won't really matter if she doesn't have to wear them then - but will be a bit prepared I suppose if she does. :cheer2:


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## fourgotospain

You'd be better off just buying a lot of cheap leggings, t-shirts and sweats as this is all my girls seem to wear! They do sport at school 3 times a week so need to wear suitable clothing for that. I must say I prefer it at this age as I am a crap mother who never had shirts ironed etc by monday morning!! Their regular clothes wear out a bit more quickly as they wear them all the time. Another thing to spend money on is a good quality book bag/backpack - they carry EVERYTHING around with them, so it needs comfy straps and good stitching!


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## jojo

fourgotospain said:


> Another thing to spend money on is a good quality book bag/backpack - they carry EVERYTHING around with them, so it needs comfy straps and good stitching!



Oh yes!!!! The school bags! It seems that most of the spanish kids have those "pull along" bags (like the suitcases on wheels - er.... but not quiet as big lol).

Unfortunately you are also responsible for buying the books to go in the aforementioned school bag tho!!!

Jo xxxx


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## Alcalaina

BMF Matt said:


> I remember seeing somewhere that a lot of the state schools don't have a uniform, whereas most the international ones do. I suspect what is acceptable varies greatly from region to region and school to school. Probably best to contact the specific school to see if they have any guidelines.
> 
> Matt.


There are two _colegios_ (infant schools) in my village, the kids at the Catholic school wear severe dark uniforms. The ones at the State school wear their own clothes, but many of them wear a uniform garment called a _babi,_ a sort of smock, over their clothes.


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## Pesky Wesky

Ahhh, the uniform issue...
Here there are 4 state primary schools and _*all*_ of them have a uniform now. This has been brought in over a 4/5 year period.

The private schools all have uniforms from pre school to 16 years old. After that I don't think they have to wear one. Many private schools don't take students after 16 anyway.

There are 2 state secondary schools and they don't wear uniform and I can't see this coming in - ever!


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## macdonner

fourgotospain said:


> You'd be better off just buying a lot of cheap leggings, t-shirts and sweats as this is all my girls seem to wear! They do sport at school 3 times a week so need to wear suitable clothing for that. I must say I prefer it at this age as I am a crap mother who never had shirts ironed etc by monday morning!! Their regular clothes wear out a bit more quickly as they wear them all the time. Another thing to spend money on is a good quality book bag/backpack - they carry EVERYTHING around with them, so it needs comfy straps and good stitching!


Lol I'm the same in the ironing on a Monday morning stakes! Might just do that instead of buying uniforms then. And will invest in a very sturdy backpack - not sure will get a trolley on wheels though lol. Can't wait for all the things we have to buy!! eep:


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## JPegler

jojo said:


> Most state schools in spain dont seem to bother with a uniform, some have them, but they're not enforced. When my daughter was at state school it was like a fashion show every morning, anything went, teeny weeny shorts, jeans, tee shirts with "slogans" on.......! Unlike the international schools, who IME are obsessive to the point of stupidity about uniforms!!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


I have a 4yr old in Spanish school and I borught a uk grey school dress for her and that is what she wears at school. I will get away with it for as long as I possibly can. I cannot do with the "what is she going to wear today" ordeal every morning.
Jx


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## Pesky Wesky

*Home Schooling*

Article in El País today
Solo la escuela enseña a convivir · ELPAÍS.com
In a case of home schooling in Málaga a family was told that the process is illegal. All children between the ages of 6 - 16 must attend a school to be educated. The court didn't evaluate the level of education the children received, in fact these children speak five languages for example. The sentence is based on the fact that education within the official system is a right that children have and children cannot be denied that right For the moment in Spain the only place where children can receive education is in a school, not in a family.
So this is the latest case, but the case before this gave the thumbs up to home education I believe. Also, as it's legal in many other other european countries Spain will probably follow sooner or later.
Just one last thing, the article does say that more than 1000 children are educated outside the school system at the moment...


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## Sonrisa

Pesky Wesky said:


> Article in El País today
> Solo la escuela enseña a convivir · ELPAÍS.com
> In a case of home schooling in Málaga a family was told that the process is illegal. All children between the ages of 6 - 16 must attend a school to be educated. The court didn't evaluate the level of education the children received, in fact these children speak five languages for example. The sentence is based on the fact that education within the official system is a right that children have and children cannot be denied that right For the moment in Spain the only place where children can receive education is in a school, not in a family.
> So this is the latest case, but the case before this gave the thumbs up to home education I believe. Also, as it's legal in many other other european countries Spain will probably follow sooner or later.
> Just one last thing, the article does say that more than 1000 children are educated outside the school system at the moment...



I hope the law doesn't change in Spain. I am totally against homeschooling. I think this law protects the children against being socially deprived but most importantly, child abuse can go easily undetected for many years if the child does not attend school. 
A large percentage of child abuse that takes place at home is spotted in school by teachers and educators, enabling to put measures that prevents the abuse from reocurring. If more and more children are allowed to be educated at home, these children many never be listened or protected.


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## Pesky Wesky

Dizzie Izzie said:


> I hope the law doesn't change in Spain. I am totally against homeschooling. I think this law protects the children against being socially deprived but most importantly, child abuse can go easily undetected for many years if the child does not attend school.
> A large percentage of child abuse that takes place at home is spotted in school by teachers and educators, enabling to put measures that prevents the abuse from reocurring. If more and more children are allowed to be educated at home, these children many never be listened or protected.


Plenty of arguments for and against.
I just posted the article so people know what the situation is in Spain right now.


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## Sonrisa

Yes, the article was a good read and reasurring to know that the law is still in place and protecting the children from being homeschooled, But I was surprised that the only argument against that the article mentions is the lack of interaction that home schooled children get.


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## ajacko

*remember Valenciano*

We came over when my kids were 8 and 10. However, we only planned to be in Spain for two years and so we sent them to LES (an international school where they follow the UK curriculum). Had we known we would be staying we may have put the children in Spanish school as neither of my children are particularly confident speaking Spanish and they would've been fluent within 6-12 months at a Spanish school.

But, and it's a big but - senior schools in our area (Javea) all teach in Valenciano - so kids have the added problem of having to learn yet another language. It seems mad to me and , as a consequence, many children's literary skill in both English and Spanish is badly affected. It's something to be aware of when considering schools!


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## andmac

Having moved here with a two year old daughter - we want her to integrate into our local society.

Being close to the Catalan border, Valenciano is another consideration. However, if our daughter can master Castillian, Valenciano, English and French (I teach English and French) - to me that is an excellent start in life!

The whole lifestyle and educational opportunities available here seem to be perfect, or at least better than those which were available in North Wales / Shropshire borders where we used to live.

The Valenciano and Castillian is more or less the same as the Welsh / English set up back where we used to live. However, there is immersion available here in both Valenciano and Castillian which obviously was not available in the UK. 

We both think that this area offers linguistic and developmental riches for our little one!!!


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## xabiaxica

andmac said:


> Having moved here with a two year old daughter - we want her to integrate into our local society.
> 
> Being close to the Catalan border, Valenciano is another consideration. However, if our daughter can master Castillian, Valenciano, English and French (I teach English and French) - to me that is an excellent start in life!
> 
> The whole lifestyle and educational opportunities available here seem to be perfect, or at least better than those which were available in North Wales / Shropshire borders where we used to live.
> 
> The Valenciano and Castillian is more or less the same as the Welsh / English set up back where we used to live. However, there is immersion available here in both Valenciano and Castillian which obviously was not available in the UK.
> 
> We both think that this area offers linguistic and developmental riches for our little one!!!


so refreshing to see that attitude!!!


we live in the Valencian region & my dds are at state school so are taught in both Castellano & Valenciano - in fact my elder dd has opted to have all her classes in Valenciano now - the younger one will, I think, stay in the Castellano line when she stars ESO next September

so many people when they hear that the kids have to learn 2 new languages here are scared off living in this area

my attitude is that it matters not a jot what language they learn in - they are learning the essentially same material - & if they are young enough to learn the languages then the more languages the better!!


my elder dd now also studies German, so knows 4 languages - not bad at 14 eh?

also, because of the Castellano & Valenciano, she can understand quite a lot of written French & Italian - and we were watching a Portuguese speaker on the news one day & had a really good idea of what he was saying! 

I think the gift of languages is the best gift we can give our kids by choosing to live abroad

and the more languages you learn, the easier it is to learn more languages


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## Alcalaina

*Music in Spanish schools*

I´ve just read that the British government is cutting back on music education in state schools as an unnecessary luxury, despite evidence that kids who play instruments have higher self-esteem and are less likely to get in to trouble.

Does anyone know the situation on music education in Spanish state schools? Is there any? Is it free?


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## Tallulah

Alcalaina said:


> I´ve just read that the British government is cutting back on music education in state schools as an unnecessary luxury, despite evidence that kids who play instruments have higher self-esteem and are less likely to get in to trouble.
> 
> Does anyone know the situation on music education in Spanish state schools? Is there any? Is it free?


There are music lessons in state schools here. They are taught to read music and the instrument they first learn is the flauta dulce (recorder). It is a subject taken seriously in that they have to pass it every year (well, here anyway - just like any other subject on the curriculum). For anything else, there are conservatorios, music lessons etc (private) and clubs run by the ayuntamientos for other instruments.


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## xabiaxica

Alcalaina said:


> I´ve just read that the British government is cutting back on music education in state schools as an unnecessary luxury, despite evidence that kids who play instruments have higher self-esteem and are less likely to get in to trouble.
> 
> Does anyone know the situation on music education in Spanish state schools? Is there any? Is it free?


both my dds get free music lesson at school- primary & secondary

not specific one-to-one instrument lessons like when I was at school in the UK (I played bassoon - but not everyone had these lessons - I think it was only if you showed a talent) - but recorder & so on


I don't think in ESO they do music every term - but they do have music - my dd has music today


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## Guest

Alcalaina said:


> I´ve just read that the British government is cutting back on music education in state schools as an unnecessary luxury, despite evidence that kids who play instruments have higher self-esteem and are less likely to get in to trouble.
> 
> Does anyone know the situation on music education in Spanish state schools? Is there any? Is it free?


My OH is a primary music teacher. Primary students (and sometimes infantil), here, have a music class a week. I've seen that a lot of teachers have them play the recorder, but OH and some others teach percussion, etc. depending on the resources available to them through the school. 

The majority of Spanish schools don't have proper "music lessons" (eg. learning anything but the recorder and/or percussion instruments readily available in schools) or school bands. However, they do have traditional music class. 

Hope this helps.


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## Alcalaina

Thanks all of you, that's good to know!


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## John.malaga

Must say we are very impressed so far with Spanish state schools. My oldest - five years old - is in one of the new public (in theory Bilingual schools) in Andalucia. We are very happy, as is he. They call them bilingual - but in reality - they have a few hours of English a week. So far, so good. The teachers are nice and welcoming....and most importantly they seem to really care for the children. 

As far as education standards go, its hard to say, probably not quite up to the same levels as some countries in Northern Europe....but as i have always said - the most important education starts and ends at home....besides, at that age, the most important point is that they enjoy themselves and school!


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## jojo

John.malaga said:


> Must say we are very impressed so far with Spanish state schools. My oldest - five years old - is in one of the new public (in theory Bilingual schools) in Andalucia. We are very happy, as is he. They call them bilingual - but in reality - they have a few hours of English a week. So far, so good. The teachers are nice and welcoming....and most importantly they seem to really care for the children.
> 
> As far as education standards go, its hard to say, probably not quite up to the same levels as some countries in Northern Europe....but as i have always said - the most important education starts and ends at home....besides, at that age, the most important point is that they enjoy themselves and school!


Definitely, especially when they're young. Those first impressions of school are so important!

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky

*Education post 16*










Went to a meeting on Friday about education 16+

Talk about complicated! It took an hour and a half to explain all the ins and outs, by which time we were all exhausted - and this is the second time we'vebeen to a talk about this.

The table above shows it as it is. 
One of the main things is the _*PAU*_ Prueba de Aceso a la Universidad which has recently changed from the Selectividad. This you do in June in the year that you finish Bachillerato. You have 4 exams which are Lengua, Idioma Extranjera, one of the core materials from your Bachillerato second year, and I think the other one is History of Spain. That counts for 40% of your total mark. The other 60% is calculated from the results you obtained in first and second year Bachillerato.
Then voluntarily, the student can opt to do (2?) more exams in areas s/he hasn't already been examined in, and this can push the overall mark up to 14 maximum. For some degrees the cut off point starts at 11 or 12 (medicine for one) and so although it's voluntary, a student wanting to go into these areas is forced to take the extra exams.
The other thing that has changed fairly recently is that each university can have its own programme of studies (approved by the dept of Education of course) so a degree can be radically different depending on which university you decide to go to·

FP programmes are vastly under estimated, and some schools barely bother to give information about them.However, the schools are very well equipped, have some excellent courses and, even today, have a very high % of employability, about 75% employed in the first 6 months!!!


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## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> Went to a meeting on Friday about education 16+
> 
> Talk about complicated! It took an hour and a half to explain all the ins and outs, by which time we were all exhausted - and this is the second time we'vebeen to a talk about this.
> 
> The table above shows it as it is.
> One of the main things is the _*PAU*_ Prueba de Aceso a la Universidad which has recently changed from the Selectividad. This you do in June in the year that you finish Bachillerato. You have 4 exams which are Lengua, Idioma Extranjera, one of the core materials from your Bachillerato second year, and I think the other one is History of Spain. That counts for 40% of your total mark. The other 60% is calculated from the results you obtained in first and second year Bachillerato.
> Then voluntarily, the student can opt to do (2?) more exams in areas s/he hasn't already been examined in, and this can push the overall mark up to 14 maximum. For some degrees the cut off point starts at 11 or 12 (medicine for one) and so although it's voluntary, a student wanting to go into these areas is forced to take the extra exams.
> The other thing that has changed fairly recently is that each university can have its own programme of studies (approved by the dept of Education of course) so a degree can be radically different depending on which university you decide to go to·
> 
> FP programmes are vastly under estimated, and some schools barely bother to give information about them.However, the schools are very well equipped, have some excellent courses and, even today, have a very high % of employability, about 75% employed in the first 6 months!!!


boy am I glad you posted this - I've been dreading the meeting I knew was coming up next year - mainly because they insist on all meetings being in Valenciano, then those of us who only speak Castellano push for an explanation in that language - & I end up translating for lots of the parents who may have been here years but never got beyond 'dos cafe con leches'

so you can imagine how long _that_ goes on


I'm going to merge this into the education sticky so that it doesn't get lost


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## Guest

I remember the first time I saw that whole diagram, just after landing in Spain. Boy, was I ever overwhelmed! Even after three years working with post-16 year old students, I still was a bit confused. Thanks for posting this, it's great to see everything laid out like this (and I didn't even know what PCPI meant!)


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## Pesky Wesky

Well thanks women, I thought it couldn't just be me who found it really complicated... Actually the Spanish in the meeting were just as befuddled and doing smth in your second or third language is never going to help, is it!
BUT... I've just noticed that thet diagram doesn't actually put the PAU in place and there are also exams to take to go to FP superior I think, so if you find a better chart, could you post it please?


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## Guest

Oooh PW, you're bad, you gave me an excuse to procrastinate even more!

I did, however, manage to stumble across an exhaustive english-language guide to the Spanish educational system that will surely be of interest to any parent bringing children into Spain: 
http://eacea.ec.europa.eu/education...urybase/national_summary_sheets/047_ES_EN.pdf

Here's the "map" that scared me so my first year in Spain. Please note that the yellow stars indicate that an exam is needed to enter the next "step" in education. 











One interesting thing to note is that on the far left, music education (in the various conservatories) is included in the public education system!


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## Pesky Wesky

Yes, I think I saw that and thought it was too complicated, but on second thoughts... that's the system and you can't really simplify it!
I think the idea of putting music education in the conservatories alongside the public education is just so you see where it fits in age wise and level wise.
That PDF is a treasure of info, thanks for posting it!


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## heidibingham

the first year we moved here my son was in a private english school learning no Spanish what so ever wearing a uniform that was super strict and costing m 500 euros a year. We put him into Spanish school and like the spanish - its very low key what thy wear - anything goes - literally. You will also notice the teachers are called by their first name and mainly wear jeans and t shirts to work, as do most bank staff etc. I totally agree with it. I also love the lack of interest the children pay to what each other are wearing - no need to have to have **** trainers or all the latest designer labels...... Laid back lifestyle is what living here is all about. I welcome it with open arms.


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## jojo

heidibingham said:


> the first year we moved here my son was in a private english school learning no Spanish what so ever wearing a uniform that was super strict and costing m 500 euros a year. We put him into Spanish school and like the spanish - its very low key what thy wear - anything goes - literally. You will also notice the teachers are called by their first name and mainly wear jeans and t shirts to work, as do most bank staff etc. I totally agree with it. I also love the lack of interest the children pay to what each other are wearing - no need to have to have **** trainers or all the latest designer labels...... Laid back lifestyle is what living here is all about. I welcome it with open arms.


True, altho I think schooling choice very much depends on the childs age! But yes, International schools are expensive, I needed a mortgage to pay for the uniforms! - and they do speak/teach and integrate with Spanish now!

Jo xxx


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## wanderinggirl

does it really cost a fortune if i want to send my child to a school in spain?


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## xabiaxica

wanderinggirl said:


> does it really cost a fortune if i want to send my child to a school in spain?


depends what you mean by a fortune

state education is free - but you have to buy all books & stationery etc - I reckon about 1000€ a year each for my two dds

private school is obviously not free - say 7000€ + a year per child as a ballpark figure

have a good read of the thread


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## Pesky Wesky

Viaje fin de curso... (End of year trip)

Beware of these words my friends because it = big shell out if you're not carefull!!!

Different schools do different things. My daughter has had an end of primary trip in the 6th year to celebrate the end of Primary School Life and will now have an end of Bachillerato trip (aged 17). In some ways the most logical time for this trip would be at the end of the second year in Bachillerato, but as that coincides with PAU (Prueba de Aceso a la Universidad) they put it forward a year to the end of first year Bachillerato. That's what they do in her school anyway. You may get trips like this planned for the end of the first cycle (14 years old) or second cycle (16) of secondary school.
Anyway, in the past these trips were a weekend in Cuenca or at the beach somewhere, but now...
My daughter will be going to Greece for a week for a cost of 650 Euros!! 
In the parents meeting we were told that the students arrange the destination themselves with some guidance from the teachers. We sat back and thought it would be good for them to debate and discuss the issue themselves, but we didn't think about putting some limits, thinking that the teachers involved would be thinking about the cost to the parents.
For what they are going to be doing, the cost is reasonable (Athens, a couple of islands, entry to museums included etc), but I personally think it's an unecessary cost and they could have gone somewhere less exotic for half the cost. I think the experience will be great and valuable - something she'll remember for always, but ...
Another thing - although supposedly they are encouraged to fund themselves there is little support, little creativity and little uumph concerning that. Kids are not used to raising money for charity for example, well not kids nor anybody actually. It's more along the lines of make a donation, but make something and sell it, sponsored activities etc - I've seen hardly anything beyond selling raffle tickets and selling chocolates at Christmas.
Anyway, I've had her making earrings and bracelets, and this week we've had an order for 88 magdalenas from friends and aquaintances!! So far she's made about 150 euros which is a 150 euros that she didn't have in the beginning.

Just thought I'd warn you parents of older children out there


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## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> Viaje fin de curso... (End of year trip)
> 
> Beware of these words my friends because it = big shell out if you're not carefull!!!
> 
> Different schools do different things. My daughter has had an end of primary trip in the 6th year to celebrate the end of Primary School Life and will now have an end of Bachillerato trip (aged 17). In some ways the most logical time for this trip would be at the end of the second year in Bachillerato, but as that coincides with PAU (Prueba de Aceso a la Universidad) they put it forward a year to the end of first year Bachillerato. That's what they do in her school anyway. You may get trips like this planned for the end of the first cycle (14 years old) or second cycle (16) of secondary school.
> Anyway, in the past these trips were a weekend in Cuenca or at the beach somewhere, but now...
> My daughter will be going to Greece for a week for a cost of 650 Euros!!
> In the parents meeting we were told that the students arrange the destination themselves with some guidance from the teachers. We sat back and thought it would be good for them to debate and discuss the issue themselves, but we didn't think about putting some limits, thinking that the teachers involved would be thinking about the cost to the parents.
> For what they are going to be doing, the cost is reasonable (Athens, a couple of islands, entry to museums included etc), but I personally think it's an unecessary cost and they could have gone somewhere less exotic for half the cost. I think the experience will be great and valuable - something she'll remember for always, but ...
> Another thing - although supposedly they are encouraged to fund themselves there is little support, little creativity and little uumph concerning that. Kids are not used to raising money for charity for example, well not kids nor anybody actually. It's more along the lines of make a donation, but make something and sell it, sponsored activities etc - I've seen hardly anything beyond selling raffle tickets and selling chocolates at Christmas.
> Anyway, I've had her making earrings and bracelets, and this week we've had an order for 88 magdalenas from friends and aquaintances!! So far she's made about 150 euros which is a 150 euros that she didn't have in the beginning.
> 
> Just thought I'd warn you parents of older children out there


oh yes...tell me about it!!

dd1 went on an 'outward bound' trip at the end of primaria - only 4 nights iirc & only about an hour away from us but that was a few hundred euros - mind you she had a fantastic time!!

dd2 is going this year - the same thing but somewhere else a bit further away....

I don't know if it's the brit influence in the school, but all the kids going on the trip run a 'tuck shop' at school to earn money to help pay for the trip - the original stock was bought by AMPA I think, and has been paid for from takings - a brilliant idea - the kids are learning some resposibility & the trip is actually costing us less than her elder sister's 3 years ago!


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## Pesky Wesky

*matricula, registration for school*

In the Comunidad de Madrid they have put up posters everywhere saying that matricula/ registration at schools is from March 21 to April 11. I presume it's similar in other places.


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## Caz.I

Pesky Wesky said:


> In the Comunidad de Madrid they have put up posters everywhere saying that matricula/ registration at schools is from March 21 to April 11. I presume it's similar in other places.


Down here in Andalucia, it's usually from 1st March to the 31st March - that is for pupils registering for the first time. Of course, the forms aren't always out on the 1st March  but the sooner you get one the better as when they are handed in they are often numbered in case they have a lot of applicants. Of course, it still depends on how many points your child has but if a lot of children have the same number of points then whether your child gets a place could depend on the number written on your form.

For children who are already in the school, you usually dont have to go through the whole thing again but only need to fill in a form to confirm your place in June. 
I can remember the anxiety when I was trying to get my son into the local school, it was horrible.


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## xabiaxica

Caz.I said:


> Down here in Andalucia, it's usually from 1st March to the 31st March - that is for pupils registering for the first time. Of course, the forms aren't always out on the 1st March  but the sooner you get one the better as when they are handed in they are often numbered in case they have a lot of applicants. Of course, it still depends on how many points your child has but if a lot of children have the same number of points then whether your child gets a place could depend on the number written on your form.
> 
> For children who are already in the school, you usually dont have to go through the whole thing again but only need to fill in a form to confirm your place in June.
> I can remember the anxiety when I was trying to get my son into the local school, it was horrible.


same here - although in Pramary we've never had to fill inany forms for the following year for school as such - just for the school bus & comedor

& yes, in theory you have to register in March, but that doesn't mean that if you move during the summer holidays (or any other time) & haven't pre-registered in March, that your child won't get a school place

they might not get the school you want - but they will get a place in a school


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## adinanz

*link to find your local school - private or state*

I found this :

https://www.educacion.es/centros/selectaut.do


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## Pesky Wesky

Caz.I said:


> Down here in Andalucia, it's usually from 1st March to the 31st March - that is for pupils registering for the first time. Of course, the forms aren't always out on the 1st March  but the sooner you get one the better as when they are handed in they are often numbered in case they have a lot of applicants. Of course, it still depends on how many points your child has but if a lot of children have the same number of points then whether your child gets a place could depend on the number written on your form.
> 
> For children who are already in the school, you usually dont have to go through the whole thing again but only need to fill in a form to confirm your place in June.
> I can remember the anxiety when I was trying to get my son into the local school, it was horrible.


I'm not sure what you mean here Caz when you say you only have to fill in a form. 
Here you have to re register your child for every cycle I think, so if your child is in pre school you have to register the child again when they enter primary, when they go to secondary and when they/ if they stay on for bachillerato and I'm not sure if I've missed out one from the first to second cycle of secondary. And here this usually involves a trip to the bank (insurance and materials) a photo and I can't remember what else.
Is it the same every where??


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## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> I'm not sure what you mean here Caz when you say you only have to fill in a form.
> Here you have to re register your child for every cycle I think, so if your child is in pre school you have to register the child again when they enter primary, when they go to secondary and when they/ if they stay on for bachillerato and I'm not sure if I've missed out one from the first to second cycle of secondary. And here this usually involves a trip to the bank (insurance and materials) a photo and I can't remember what else.
> Is it the same every where??


here, yes, we had to register between infantil & primaria, and again between primaria & ESO (& again every year so far in ESO with photo & endless forms)- but not each year in primaria

the insurance is through AMPA subs & materials (in primaria) are decided individually by each class teacher in September - some ask for money & some send alist of stuff to send into school

in ESO dd1 has always been given a list by each subject teacher if anything special is required


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## Caz.I

xabiachica said:


> same here - although in Pramary we've never had to fill inany forms for the following year for school as such - just for the school bus & comedor
> 
> & yes, in theory you have to register in March, but that doesn't mean that if you move during the summer holidays (or any other time) & haven't pre-registered in March, that your child won't get a school place
> 
> they might not get the school you want - but they will get a place in a school


Well that is what I meant - they might not get the school they want. Also, if they are under six then the Junta is not legally obliged to provide a place I believe, although usually you have 3 preferences, and if your first choice is not available there is usually a place in the second or third school of your choice. The point I was making is not to be complacent and think that you can get a place easily.

In certain areas in Fuengirola there are more applicants than places and so what has happened to some parents is that they have had to put one child in one school while the younger child is in another or they havent got their child in the nearest school because it is oversubscribed.


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## Caz.I

Pesky Wesky said:


> I'm not sure what you mean here Caz when you say you only have to fill in a form.
> Here you have to re register your child for every cycle I think, so if your child is in pre school you have to register the child again when they enter primary, when they go to secondary and when they/ if they stay on for bachillerato and I'm not sure if I've missed out one from the first to second cycle of secondary. And here this usually involves a trip to the bank (insurance and materials) a photo and I can't remember what else.
> Is it the same every where??


Well to start with, my son registered in the first class of Infantil in March and since then we have had to only fill out a form to matriculate in June (together with hand in details of income). But he is due to start Primaria this year. However, other friends in the area have told me that this is what you do every year until they leave Primaria to go to Secondary when they have to re-register again, and then again if they stay on for Bachillerato.
But I dont know if this is unique to Andalucia.


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## Pesky Wesky

Caz.I said:


> Well to start with, my son registered in the first class of Infantil in March and since then we have had to only fill out a form to matriculate in June (together with hand in details of income). But he is due to start Primaria this year. However, other friends in the area have told me that this is what you do every year until they leave Primaria to go to Secondary when they have to re-register again, and then again if they stay on for Bachillerato.
> But I dont know if this is unique to Andalucia.


Conclusion; once again it depends on where you live, but be aware that in some areas there is paperwork to do every year.


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## mallorcababy

Hi, I was brought up in Spanish and English schools and I think that what everyone needs to think about is where their children is going to spend their initial working life. If that is in England then you would be better going to an International school that follows the English curriculum. However if they want to stay in Spain then get your children into a Spanish chool as soon as possible.

Clare,


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## bob_bob

*Growing children*

This has no impact on me as I don't live full time in Spain and my children are grown but...

Lets assume you have been in Spain some years, your children are 16 -18, do they attend Spanish or UK university? Do many stay (or return after UK uni) for a full life in Spain?

You have chosen a life in Spain, how many of your children stay the course and remain 'Spanish', how many move on their own back to the UK.

I've expat friends all over the world, USA, Canada, NZ and Auz and all the children have stayed on but the language and to a degree the culture is similar in those places to the UK and I just wondered if expat children really do fully adopt to the Spanish way of life; in effect become Spanish.


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## jojo

An interesting question and one thats close to my heart right now. We've only been here for 3 years and my kids are at an international school. My son who is now 16 and taking his IGCSEs and looking to what next?? He could stay and do A-levels at the school here (costly) or he could go back to the UK and go to sixth form college or to a vocational college???? I wonder if he did have the languages skills would he want to stay in Spain to do further education??? hhmmmm, the baccalaureate is a good one to get?! I dont think I'd be happy if he simply left school right now tho and got a job in Spain - or anywhere else........ on the other hand, maybe I wouldnt mind, afterall in this day and age, getting a job isnt easy, so if that were to happen.....!?

Sadly tho, I think my son is going to chose the sixth from college in the UK (they get paid to go!?WTF) and that means we will all probably have to go back there????????

Jo xxx


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## xabiaxica

my eldest is 15 & will def do bachilerato here - after that, who knows?

she wants to travel & has tossed various ideas around - she is very strong with languages & is thinking maybe UN in some capacity - mind you - that could of course change


she does want to go to uni in the states..............


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## bob_bob

Baccalaureate is getting good rep in the UK these days Jojo, confidence in 'A' levels is dropping, they just ain't what they used to be. 'O' levels are not worth the ink used to print the certificates.


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## fourgotospain

This is something that I thought about very hard before moving anywhere, and I have to say I seem to be in a minority. 'We' the adults have chosen a life in Spain, but right from the start my thoughts were 'what will happen to the girls as adults?' 

One of the reasons we chose an EU country is that they will retain some proper familiarity with their birth country, which would be almost impossible in say Australia or New Zealand. We looked seriously at Canada, but even 7000 miles is too many for them to have any real knowledge of the UK, and although we live here now, they will always be British and should embrace their heritage. They are lucky to have young active grandparents who can both visit them out here, and take them around the sights and museums of London etc.

They go to spanish school, but will do english exams as well which will hopefully mean they can do what they like - as xab says who knows? My brother lives in the US with his american fiance, my sister is married to a South African, and we used to live in Thailand so we're all pretty used to the international-ness of life these days!


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## jojo

The good thing that all of us are doing by leaving our "home" country is showing our children that the world is a small place and they neednt be afraid of travelling it to find a life and work! Lets face it, if none of us had moved, our kids would be stuck in a rut in the UK - few would have the confidence or desire to travel 

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky

bob_bob said:


> This has no impact on me as I don't live full time in Spain and my children are grown but...
> 
> Lets assume you have been in Spain some years, your children are 16 -18, do they attend Spanish or UK university? Do many stay (or return after UK uni) for a full life in Spain?
> 
> You have chosen a life in Spain, how many of your children stay the course and remain 'Spanish', how many move on their own back to the UK.
> 
> I've expat friends all over the world, USA, Canada, NZ and Auz and all the children have stayed on but the language and to a degree the culture is similar in those places to the UK and I just wondered if expat children really do fully adopt to the Spanish way of life; in effect become Spanish.


Yes, it's a question which I had never thought about as my case is different too, (daughter is Spanish and has always lived here and gone to state school) but it's smth I've become aware of since being a member of the forum (thanks forum for teaching me stuff!).
If children come here at primary school age and parents keep up the English side (as in language, not necessarily content) of their education I think we could assume that at the end of their obligatory education here they could choose whether to go to further education here or there. The child may have to do an extra course here or there to cover gaps in the syllabus, but language wise they should be able to cope with both. Children who come here at an older age and are educated in a private school because of language issues would find the choice limited to English language universities I think.


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## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yes, it's a question which I had never thought about as my case is different too, (daughter is Spanish and has always lived here and gone to state school) but it's smth I've become aware of since being a member of the forum (thanks forum for teaching me stuff!).
> If children come here at primary school age and parents keep up the English side (as in language, not necessarily content) of their education I think we could assume that at the end of their obligatory education here they could choose whether to go to further education here or there. The child may have to do an extra course here or there to cover gaps in the syllabus, but language wise they should be able to cope with both. Children who come here at an older age and are educated in a private school because of language issues would find the choice limited to English language universities I think.


yes, that's it exactly

because my dds are truly bilingual (or tri if you count valenciano - though neither actually _like_ speaking it, they do fluently) they will have the choice of further education anywhere in Spain or the UK - or any english ot spanish speaking country


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## Pesky Wesky

xabiachica said:


> yes, that's it exactly
> 
> because my dds are truly bilingual (or tri if you count valenciano - though neither actually _like_ speaking it, they do fluently) they will have the choice of further education anywhere in Spain or the UK - or any english ot spanish speaking country


A parent's dream Xabia - or mine at least, which is by no means easy to achieve. Even if children live in a foreign country and learn another language, keeping up with the other/s (languages I mean) isn't easy and requires effort from all the family. It's something that "non language orientated people" don't take into consideration or simply don't know about. Yes, it's true that people, especially children pick up languages, even absorb them like sponges, but what happens if you pick a wet sponge up? Doesn't the water run out again?? And pretty quickly at that...

To use a Jojo phrase ... (I don't think it's copyright)
Top Tip - don't take anything for granted!!! Plan and think about languages.


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## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> A parent's dream Xabia - or mine at least, which is by no means easy to achieve. Even if children live in a foreign country and learn another language, keeping up with the other/s isn't easy and requires effort from all the family. It's something that "non language orientated people" don't take into consideration or simply don't know about. Yes, it's true that people, especially children pick up languages, even absorb them like sponges, but what happens if you pick a wet sponge up? Doesn't the water run out again?? And pretty quickly at that...
> 
> To use a Jojo phrase ... (I don't think it's copyright)
> Top Tip - don't take anything for granted!!! Plan and think about languages.


yes, you do have to think about it, and plan

& this summer dd2 & I will be spending a couple of hours a week doing spellings


dd1 actually spells better in english than the english school educated kids I do maths & spanish with


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## jimenato

bob_bob said:


> This has no impact on me as I don't live full time in Spain and my children are grown but...
> 
> Lets assume you have been in Spain some years, your children are 16 -18, do they attend Spanish or UK university? Do many stay (or return after UK uni) for a full life in Spain?
> 
> You have chosen a life in Spain, how many of your children stay the course and remain 'Spanish', how many move on their own back to the UK.
> 
> I've expat friends all over the world, USA, Canada, NZ and Auz and all the children have stayed on but the language and to a degree the culture is similar in those places to the UK and I just wondered if expat children really do fully adopt to the Spanish way of life; in effect become Spanish.


It's a very good question and one which I'm very glad has no effect on me. I have been here in Spain for 11 years and I have seen two extremes and not much in between.

One extreme; Parents send their kids to Spanish school and seem surprised (if indeed they care at all) that at 16 their kids are entirely unsuitable for Spanish working life (they are not Spanish) and entirely unsuitable for UK further education (they do not have the qualifications).

Other extreme; Parents pay a fortune to put their kids through International school and then send them to the UK and spend more money on them while they go through Uni.

Second extreme is fine if you can afford it. First extreme leaves kids with very few prospects.

If I had kids and didn't have enough money for the International School option, I would not move to Spain until the kids were at least well into University education (if that's what they wanted to do) and I think more parents should think about it.

I'm not expecting the above to be universally popular.eep:

I would be very interested to know how many (if any, there must be some!) children born in the UK of UK parents actually thrive in the Spanish employment market. I don't know of any myself.

I would also be interested to hear if any of these children who have been to Spanish school, thrive in the UK higher education/employment system...


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## lynn

We have been here for 18 months now, and my eldest is about to take his A levels at an International school. He is then planning to go to University in the UK. He can apply for the student finance just like a UK resident, and he has always known that at the end of his schooling he would be going elsewhere.... There are no opportunities for an 18 year old with no real Spanish language skills here. If he stuffs up his A levels I will encourage him to travel and work - maybe a season in the ski resorts or some such thing.... 
My daughter is 14 and has identified that the language skills she can get living here will give her options to go all over the world when she finishes her education. She will look at UK university too, and I suspect choose to do languages as her degree. 
The lifestyle here suits rearing children, but the opportunities are dire. We can only encourage them to look at the broader world wide picture of opportunities as they reach adulthood..


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## Pesky Wesky

jimenato said:


> If I had kids and didn't have enough money for the International School option, I would not move to Spain until the kids were at least well into University education (if that's what they wanted to do) and I think more parents should think about it.


But you don't say why Jimenato?
My interpretation is that you're talking about 
Older kids only, because if you come over with older non Spanish speaking children you could screw up their education
OR
That you're talking about all ages, so effectively saying that you think education in Spain is so terrible that the only place to properly educate children here, is in a private set up.

Which of those two options, or is there a third option?


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## nigele2

Pesky Wesky said:


> But you don't say why Jimenato?
> My interpretation is that you're talking about
> Older kids only, because if you come over with older non Spanish speaking children you could screw up their education.
> OR
> That you're talking about all ages, so effectively saying that you think education in Spain is so terrible that the only place to properly educate children here, is in a private set up.
> 
> Which of those two options, or is there a third option?


Pesky while we can talk about an age when success is more likely I think it is also important to look at family/home circumstances. If home life is in English and schooling in spanish a child may not be able to cope (have the aptitude or capacity). 

If on the otherhand the parents integrate (I know a dirty word to some ) and are fluent in Spanish then I would think the chances of success are far greater. The child would be raised spanish with a UK cultural input and an additional language. 

How would I have faired without my Pa learning Pythagoras with me and helping with my homework I wonder? Not sure we would have done too well if I had had to translate the text for him 

While some kids will lap it up you only know how a child will develop overtime so there must be a risk that there will be issues and by then it may be too late.. 

A very important decision taken by people taking on one of the hardest jobs in the world without any qualifications or experience


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## Alcalaina

bob_bob said:


> Baccalaureate is getting good rep in the UK these days Jojo, confidence in 'A' levels is dropping, they just ain't what they used to be. 'O' levels are not worth the ink used to print the certificates.


Sorry to be pedantic, but O Levels were scrapped in 1987 ...

When I was recruiting (up until 2008) A Levels and GCSEs were definitely taken into account, provided they were good grades in meaningful subjects. Don´t demean the kids´achievements by telling them their qualifications are worthless, please!


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## jimenato

Pesky Wesky said:


> But you don't say why Jimenato?
> My interpretation is that you're talking about
> Older kids only, because if you come over with older non Spanish speaking children you could screw up their education
> OR
> That you're talking about all ages, so effectively saying that you think education in Spain is so terrible that the only place to properly educate children here, is in a private set up.
> 
> Which of those two options, or is there a third option?


The Spanish education system may well suit Spanish children who are going to enter the Spanish employment system. It does not (from what I've seen) suit UK children who want to enter the Spanish Employment system. 

That isn't necessarily anything to do with the Spanish education system - it might be the employment system or, I suppose, the kids at fault. I do not know of any UK children with a Spanish education who have achieved much. I'm not saying there aren't any - there must be some! - but I don't know any.


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## nigele2

My brother adds "Do not spanish schools expect the parents of pupils to help them and support them in their studies and activities?".

Thinking about it ours did. But without fluent Spanish parents that must be tough.

And from what I can gather from this and other forums very few expats become fluent


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## xabiaxica

nigele2 said:


> My brother adds "Do not spanish schools expect the parents of pupils to help them and support them in their studies and activities?".
> 
> Thinking about it ours did. But without fluent Spanish parents that must be tough.
> 
> And from what I can gather from this and other forums very few expats become fluent


& there's the rub............


I have learned Spanish well enough to help my 2 with their homework - & muddle along well enough in valenciano too, somehow

but all kids get to the stage when they should be doing homework without help in any case - a stage where the parents helping with homework are actually a hindrance to the teacher (in any language) - trust me, as a teacher, I know

both mine are pretty much at that stage now - the 11 year old likes a bit of support sometimes - but not actual help - & the 15 year old really needs to be studying alone 

it is true though that for many kids if their parents never learn the language, then quite often the kids will fail - they don't really ever settle in & study - they are the ones you see bunking off, smoking dope on street corners & failing year on year

I'm not talking about the kids who were dumped in the spanish system as teens or nearly teens - that really is a recipe for disaster in most cases & the blame lies right at the parents' feet - I'm talking about those who have been in the spanish system from a very young age & really should be fine - & most that I know in that position are

at my dd's instituto last year, more educational prizes were won by kids who don't have spanish as a first language - & trust me - they aren't given any special treatment - they have to get the highest grades in exactly the same exams as the native spanish or valenciano speakers

I said it before - I suspect that many if not most who fail would have failed in the UK too

quite what will happen at or after uni is anyones guess - my elder dd has itchy feet (like her parents) but I'm pretty sure that if she wants her future to be in spain, it can be, as can her younger sister's


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## dinnow

I'm probably in a minority but I believe that the spanish education system is inferior to the English for kids who are not jack of all trades. In Spain, if you fail a few subjects in certain years, you are made to repeat that year. And you either pass or fail the complete block of subjects. So it produces generalists with a good breadth of knowledge but no depth. In the UK, if you fail a few subjects, you fail a few subjects and can still end up with 6 GCSEs rather than ten. And A levels provide a narrower knowledge base than Spanish bachillerato but lots more depth. So kids who are very good at a few academic subjects do better in the UK.
Those kids do not enjoy school life in Spain where they are branded as failures. They will integrate less with Spanish kids and will tend to mix with other expat kids. And as adults they will see their future as being in the UK. 
All of the posts on this subject are from parents, me included. But what we want for our kids isn't the issue. It's what they want for themselves. Very few do well in careers in Spain. Of my four one very gifted girl works as a barmaid having decided against uni but quite happy with life in Spain; one is in the Royal Navy and UK based and two are at school/sixth form college in the UK studying a limited range of subjects and doing much better than in Spanish school.


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## star77

*too young for pre-school??*

Hi, 
I'm hoping some of the parents of younger children can help me. 
We are moving to Valencia in the Summer and I have a daughter who turned two on 1 January this year which means she'll be 2 years and 8 months old this September. 
We have been told that because she is just one day out of being three in the calendar year when she would commence school she could start pre-school this September. 
It's a British School so I'm not overly worried about language difficulties, she's tall and mature for her age and is well ahead of her milestones but I'm still a worried that it might be a bit too much for her socially and emotionally.
It seems like a very long day (about 9.30 - 4pm I think) even though they do take a siesta. 
Had anybody had a similar experience and how did it work out? What is the normal day for pre-school children? Are they expected to sit at desks and learn or is it mostly activity-based learning?
My husband thinks she'll be fine and his argument is you can always keep her back a year but it's very difficult to move her up a year but i suppose I'm a bit reluctant to let go of my baby!! 
She attends creche five half days at the moment which she loves and is getting on very well but she's usually pretty tired when she comes home.
Any advice or insight would be greatly appreciated!


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## star77

I'm really surprised to be reading the opinions expressed here. Does this mean that if a child attends an International school where (I assume) Spanish language and culture is part of the curriculum and the main language spoken among their peers is Spanish, that they won't have the language skills to enter Spanish 3rd level or the workforce??


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## jojo

star77 said:


> I'm really surprised to be reading the opinions expressed here. Does this mean that if a child attends an International school where (I assume) Spanish language and culture is part of the curriculum and the main language spoken among their peers is Spanish, that they won't have the language skills to enter Spanish 3rd level or the workforce??


Certainly for a high proportion of pupils!! Spanish language and culture is taught ( a couple of times a week), but the curriculum and the language is English - International schools (in the main) are literally English schools in Spain and they teach the english exams GCSEs and up to A-levels. 

My kids are in classes with many other nationalities and have picked up Spanish fairly well, but I wouldnt say that they are capable of learning in Spanish - anywhere near! Their peers who, as I say are a variety of nationalities all learn in English and follow the curriculum

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky

star77 said:


> Hi,
> I'm hoping some of the parents of younger children can help me.
> We are moving to Valencia in the Summer and I have a daughter who turned two on 1 January this year which means she'll be 2 years and 8 months old this September.
> We have been told that because she is just one day out of being three in the calendar year when she would commence school she could start pre-school this September.
> It's a British School so I'm not overly worried about language difficulties, she's tall and mature for her age and is well ahead of her milestones but I'm still a worried that it might be a bit too much for her socially and emotionally.
> It seems like a very long day (about 9.30 - 4pm I think) even though they do take a siesta.
> Had anybody had a similar experience and how did it work out? What is the normal day for pre-school children? Are they expected to sit at desks and learn or is it mostly activity-based learning?
> My husband thinks she'll be fine and his argument is you can always keep her back a year but it's very difficult to move her up a year but i suppose I'm a bit reluctant to let go of my baby!!
> She attends creche five half days at the moment which she loves and is getting on very well but she's usually pretty tired when she comes home.
> Any advice or insight would be greatly appreciated!


When you say it's a British school, I presume you mean it's a private school. If that's the case the only way you're going to find out is by talking directly to the school and if possible the pre school teacher or department directly.
Every school is different, but I would have thought it was physically impossible to keep two year olds sitting at a desk


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## dinnow

English kids in international schools learn Spanish as a second language and not a lot about the culture. English kids in Spanish state schools are generally pretty much fluent in Spanish after three to six months; are steeped in Spanish culture; and really enjoy learning English as a second language where most excel!


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## Pesky Wesky

star77 said:


> I'm really surprised to be reading the opinions expressed here. Does this mean that if a child attends an International school where (I assume) Spanish language and culture is part of the curriculum and the main language spoken among their peers is Spanish, that they won't have the language skills to enter Spanish 3rd level or the workforce??


Even though the schools are called International Schools (or just private schools) as we are in Spain most of them cater for a Spanish market. The big Spanish private school market up until now has revolved around getting the kids to learn English, so the emphasis is on immersing the children in English, not Spanish. Spanish is reduced to Spanish language and literature and some times maths. Children do not go to these schools to learn Spanish normally.
The other big market is for the expat kids who would have trouble picking up the native language for some reason or other, or for those who can't or won't enter the state system, or, it has to be said for snobism


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## jojo

Pesky Wesky said:


> Even though the schools are called International Schools (or just private schools) as we are in Spain most of them cater for a Spanish market. The big Spanish private school market up until now has revolved around getting the kids to learn English, so the emphasis is on immersing the children in English, not Spanish. Spanish is reduced to Spanish language and literature and some times maths. Children do not go to these schools to learn Spanish normally.
> The other big market is for the expat kids who would have trouble picking up the native language for some reason or other, or for those who can't or won't enter the state system, or, it has to be said for snobism


I'm not a snob   Pesky Wesky knows the history as to why my little cherubs are in international school! I think younger children fare better in state school, but once they hit around 10ish, then its a difficult transition for them - well it certainly was for my daughter, who did go to Spanish school for 18 months and hated it to the point where she simply refused to speak the language, refused to do any work and eventually refused to go at all!!!!!!! Even now, altho she's doing well at school, she is bottom of her Spanish language class! Altho she can speak Spanish in the playground and with her Spanish friends

Jo xxx


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## star77

Our situation is that my husband will be working in the school and so we have a free place for our daughter if we want it. But I don't want to send her there just because it's an easy option, I want her to have the best education she can have. I had thought that a private International (British) school would be a great option as you are getting a British qualification along with bilingualism... obviously I'm being a bit naive!
She would only be starting in nursery so I know I probably sound like I'm jumping the gun with all this but as we say in Ireland "a good start is half the work"!
Maybe let her do pre-school in the British school and then re-evaluate for Primary?


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## jojo

star77 said:


> Our situation is that my husband will be working in the school and so we have a free place for our daughter if we want it. But I don't want to send her there just because it's an easy option, I want her to have the best education she can have. I had thought that a private International (British) school would be a great option as you are getting a British qualification along with bilingualism... obviously I'm being a bit naive!
> She would only be starting in nursery so I know I probably sound like I'm jumping the gun with all this but as we say in Ireland "a good start is half the work"!
> Maybe let her do pre-school in the British school and then re-evaluate for Primary?



If she gets some spanish friends, she'll probably pick it up. I've no doubt the education will be good regardless, so just see how it goes. 

Jo xxx


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## dinnow

star77 said:


> Our situation is that my husband will be working in the school and so we have a free place for our daughter if we want it. But I don't want to send her there just because it's an easy option, I want her to have the best education she can have. I had thought that a private International (British) school would be a great option as you are getting a British qualification along with bilingualism... obviously I'm being a bit naive!
> She would only be starting in nursery so I know I probably sound like I'm jumping the gun with all this but as we say in Ireland "a good start is half the work"!
> Maybe let her do pre-school in the British school and then re-evaluate for Primary?


I'd opt for state school if there are places and see how she adapts. (It's not obligatory until the September of the year in which her fifth birthday falls so they are not obliged to offer her a place before then. But mostly there are places.) If she takes to it she will pick up Spanish ever so quickly. And if she doesn't, at least you'll know.


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## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> When you say it's a British school, I presume you mean it's a private school. If that's the case the only way you're going to find out is by talking directly to the school and if possible the pre school teacher or department directly.
> Every school is different, but I would have thought it was physically impossible to keep two year olds sitting at a desk


yes, if it's private, which I guess it must be, then they will stick to their own rules - or not


but yes, even for state school that is the rule, although I have known our local school to make exceptions


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## Pesky Wesky

star77 said:


> Our situation is that my husband will be working in the school and so we have a free place for our daughter if we want it. But I don't want to send her there just because it's an easy option, I want her to have the best education she can have. I had thought that a private International (British) school would be a great option as you are getting a British qualification along with bilingualism... obviously I'm being a bit naive!
> She would only be starting in nursery so I know I probably sound like I'm jumping the gun with all this but as we say in Ireland "a good start is half the work"!
> Maybe let her do pre-school in the British school and then re-evaluate for Primary?


I don't know what I'd do in that situation, but we could easily have been in a similar situation with me working in a private school. However my daughter is Spanish, born here I mean. She went to Spanish play school and then straight into state education. (Actually the play school was a state escuela infantil so she is a pure product of the state)
There are schools and schools. And, as you say, you want the best education possible for your daughter. We can hope that your husband will be working in a good school. (!!) A good school will surely forment good relations and language skills between itself and the natives?? 
Perhaps you can do what you propose - try it out and see what happens. There are various points in school life where a change can be made - when primary school starts at 6 years old and when secondary school starts at 12 years old. 
If your daughter makes Spanish friends, and there's no reason to think she won't, then she'll speak Spanish. Later on you may have to check that the level is Spanish is adequate if she continues in the private system...


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## jojo

dinnow said:


> I'd opt for state school if there are places and see how she adapts. (It's not obligatory until the September of the year in which her fifth birthday falls so they are not obliged to offer her a place before then. But mostly there are places.) If she takes to it she will pick up Spanish ever so quickly. And if she doesn't, at least you'll know.



Isnt the term before their 5th birthday how it is in the UK??? I didnt think that school was obligatory until they turn six in Spain?? 

At you daughters age, I think you can only do what you think is best and see how it goes, you can always change without too much hassle, in anycase it might be nice for her to be at "daddys" school? A lot depends on your long term plans as to whether you go the state route or the international route

Jo xxx


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## xabiaxica

jojo said:


> Isnt the term before their 5th birthday how it is in the UK??? I didnt think that school was obligatory until they turn six in Spain??
> 
> At you daughters age, I think you can only do what you think is best and see how it goes, you can always change without too much hassle, in anycase it might be nice for her to be at "daddys" school? A lot depends on your long term plans as to whether you go the state route or the international route
> 
> Jo xxx


yes you're right - it's obligatory from the September of the year in which they turn 6, so children born in 2005 - 1st Jan to 31st Dec - will start primaria this september

so of course, some kids will be 6 years & 9 months, and others not yet 6

in my area they can start infantil in the year in which they are 3 - so that would mean those born in 2002 could start in September this year (if there are enough spaces - you have to register in March for September)


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## bob_bob

Alcalaina said:


> Sorry to be pedantic, but O Levels were scrapped in 1987 ...
> 
> When I was recruiting (up until 2008) A Levels and GCSEs were definitely taken into account, provided they were good grades in meaningful subjects. Don´t demean the kids´achievements by telling them their qualifications are worthless, please!


Having had two children go through the GCSE route and having completed the old 'O' levels myself I can with confidence say the new courses are crap, rubbish, waste of time. I don't blame the children for being ignorant and uneducated, its the educators who have let them down by telling all and sundry that failure is impossible and dishing out passes like treats on bonfire night. The qualifications are worthless.

Having completed a degree myself at age fifty I can say that either I have got brighter as I got older or degrees are not what they were either...I never bought a book for my course so draw your own conclusions.

Before I retired I had newly graduated Nurses applying for jobs who could not even put a CV together, non registered staff who could not even fill in an application form and yet they all had GCSE's so please don't tell me how good they are.

Some university's are now giving tests of their own to applicants, teachers are offered remedial maths lessons FOR THEMSELVES and a Polish lecturer I know teaching in Cardiff was given a maths test before her interview to make sure she is numerate...many brits are not and this was for a teaching post in Chemistry at university degree level !!!!!

UK education is Scheiße in the most part.


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## Caz.I

star77 said:


> Hi,
> I'm hoping some of the parents of younger children can help me.
> We are moving to Valencia in the Summer and I have a daughter who turned two on 1 January this year which means she'll be 2 years and 8 months old this September.
> We have been told that because she is just one day out of being three in the calendar year when she would commence school she could start pre-school this September.
> It's a British School so I'm not overly worried about language difficulties, she's tall and mature for her age and is well ahead of her milestones but I'm still a worried that it might be a bit too much for her socially and emotionally.
> It seems like a very long day (about 9.30 - 4pm I think) even though they do take a siesta.
> Had anybody had a similar experience and how did it work out? What is the normal day for pre-school children? Are they expected to sit at desks and learn or is it mostly activity-based learning?
> My husband thinks she'll be fine and his argument is you can always keep her back a year but it's very difficult to move her up a year but i suppose I'm a bit reluctant to let go of my baby!!
> She attends creche five half days at the moment which she loves and is getting on very well but she's usually pretty tired when she comes home.
> Any advice or insight would be greatly appreciated!


Personally, I think every child is different and you have to base it on what her needs are.
My son, who was born here, (so is a native Spanish speaker), went to nursery for half days from 15 months. When he was 18months - 2yrs he went to one which was from about 9.30-4 since I had to work (they did have siesta though). He went to a Spanish state infant school at 3 years old and his timetable was 9-2 then lunch and extra activities till 4 or 5 (no siesta). He was very sociable and couldnt wait to go to school (and even got upset when he was ill and couldnt go!). In his school, it was all activity based work, songs, games. You have to find out about the curriculum from the school direct, but I wouldnt worry too much. My son was definitely more tired when he started school but that was a good thing because I could pack him off to bed earlier whereas when he had a siesta it was a fight to get him into bed!


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## Sonrisa

bob_bob said:


> Having had two children go through the GCSE route and having completed the old 'O' levels myself I can with confidence say the new courses are crap, rubbish, waste of time. I don't blame the children for being ignorant and uneducated, its the educators who have let them down by telling all and sundry that failure is impossible and dishing out passes like treats on bonfire night. The qualifications are worthless.
> 
> Having completed a degree myself at age fifty I can say that either I have got brighter as I got older or degrees are not what they were either...I never bought a book for my course so draw your own conclusions.
> 
> Before I retired I had newly graduated Nurses applying for jobs who could not even put a CV together, non registered staff who could not even fill in an application form and yet they all had GCSE's so please don't tell me how good they are.
> 
> Some university's are now giving tests of their own to applicants, teachers are offered remedial maths lessons FOR THEMSELVES and a Polish lecturer I know teaching in Cardiff was given a maths test before her interview to make sure she is numerate...many brits are not and this was for a teaching post in Chemistry at university degree level !!!!!
> 
> UK education is Scheiße in the most part.



When I lived in London I found some - many- youngsters that couldn't really spell very well and appeared to lag behind in some educational subjects. These weren't school drop outs, but university graduates :confused2: 

I once had the cheeck to ask someone why , and was told that there is a huge diffence between private and public education and sadly whilst private education was amongst the best in the world, public was extremely bad. I don't know if that's true.


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## casaloco

Sonrisa said:


> I once had the cheeck to ask someone why , and was told that there is a huge diffence between private and public education and sadly whilst private education was amongst the best in the world, public was extremely bad. I don't know if that's true.


I dont know about anyone else but i think it all comes down to discipline. and the expectations between public and private schools, 

i coach over 100 kids a week. a few go to private/boarding school, i asked them about the discipline in their schools, and to me it seems much more regimented and enforced to the t. starting at the school uniform, which must put the children in the right mind set to begin with. i asked one girl about kids mucking around in class and was promptly told "it just wouldnt happen at our school" they have house points and if someone has to go to the head for being naughty they loose privaleges and the house looses a point, the house with the most points at the end of term get a special trip!!!

Surely it is much easier to teach well behaved students, hence they learn more, concentrate better and get a better education.

God bless the teachers amongst you. i couldnt do it. not in a public school in the uk anyway. the well behaved, wanting to learn kids seem to never get the attention they deserve, my friends child (now 19) was so depressed by the age of 15 she left school, (as did my son after a nervous breakdown) such a smart girl, always overlooked as the teacher was so busy trying to control her class, kids jumping all over the tables, with no powers to discipline the kids.
Its no wonder the kids who want to learn cant,

then to top it off they have a special class for kids with difficulties/discipline issues. and they get a free trip to a local theme park ?????

how can teachers teach in such environments??? I'm lucky, if a child mis behaves in my class they sit out, until they decide to be good, and the ones that are good get all the attention.


sorry that was a bit of a rant.


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## bob_bob

There is no discipline at home or School any more, the 'progressive' teaching ideas of the 1960's were the wedge that started the split and later rot in UK Education. Grammar Schools work, children enjoy competition and yet competition at all levels have been removed in the Comprehensive system allowing all students regardless of ability to tread water in an overcrowded pool that has no room for them to learn to swim.


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## Sonrisa

Interesting...

Well I am under the belief that discipline should be learnt at home. Teachers are there to teach subjects, not to discipline unruly children..


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## Sonrisa

And on the other hand there is a proverb that I believe to be true: It takes a whole village to raise a child.


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## casaloco

bob_bob said:


> Grammar Schools work, children enjoy competition and yet competition at all levels have been removed in the Comprehensive system


Yes, and its not just comprehensive, I was told by my sons primary 1 teacher "we dont encourage competitiveness at this school" then in the same converastion told me how much chris' maths had improved, i had great pleasure in telling her it was because his friend Micheal had got onto the next maths book ahead of him and he didnt like it!! 
that was 14 years ago!!

sad fact that more and more people are forced to either be single parents that work, or both parents work, cant afford childcare and the kids are left to fend for themselves!!!

it is a sad case of, the police have no powers, the teachers have no powers, we can get into trouble if we discipline our kids, and the kids know it.

Favourite quote ever from my son, "i'd phone Child line, but my mum wont let me!!!"


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## casaloco

Sonrisa said:


> And on the other hand there is a proverb that I believe to be true: It takes a whole village to raise a child.


LOVE THIS :clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2:


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## Pesky Wesky

For me it's good to see some criticism of the UK system. In the past most people have criticised the Spanish system only. My experience of modern day teaching in England is basically my 4 nephews who I think have the grand total of one Gcse between them. That, and what I see when I go back to visit my parents in Weston super Nightmare/ Mud which is not encouraging, I can tell you.
A few posters have said in the past that Spanish schools don't prepare students for the UK work place. I suppose that's true, just as UK schools don't prepare for the Spanish workplace one would presume. 
Which is better? I don't think you get very far comparing although naturally everybody does. After a while I think you have to "let go" and work with what you've got. They are different and BOTH systems are very much criticised, but, although it's easily forgotten, both have their positives too.


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## lynn

Pesky Wesky said:


> For me it's good to see some cricism of the UK system. In the past most people have criticised the Spanish system only. My experience of modern day teaching in England is basically my 4 nephews who I think have the grand total of one Gcse between them. That, and what I see when I go back to visit my parents in Weston super Nightmare/ Mud which is not encouraging, I can tell you.
> A few posters have said in the past that Spanish schools don't prepare students for the UK work place. I suppose that's true, just as UK schools don't prepare for the Spanish workplace one would presume.
> Which is better? I don't think you get very far comparing although naturally everybody does. After a while I think you have to "let go" and work with what you've got. They are different and BOTH systems are very much criticised, but, although it's easyily forgetten, both have their positives too.


What good sense you write Pesky.... I'm too busy raising and educating my three to spend time analysing what's best/better educationally... Support the school they attend, and they will do the best they can. It's a partnership between the school and family after all.


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## casaloco

we went to Ibiza last year,

came back from a trip to let the kids play in the pool for the afternoon and their was a spanish family there who were having a birthday party for a young girl....we were invited to join them.

My 2 sons aged 1 and 2 at the time were promply 'Adopted' for the next 3 hours, by the whole family (who were all locals) I found my son Laszlo (1 yrs) sat on an old spanish ladies lap, being cuddled having his hair stroked while she was yapping on to another. my Zak and 2 other kids were repremanded by the dad of the family for splashing them, then he was getting carried on his shoulders 10 minutes later.

secure family structure is mostly missing from this country, and its not the kids fault.


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## Pesky Wesky

casaloco said:


> we went to Ibiza last year,
> 
> came back from a trip to let the kids play in the pool for the afternoon and their was a spanish family there who were having a birthday party for a young girl....we were invited to join them.
> 
> My 2 sons aged 1 and 2 at the time were promply 'Adopted' for the next 3 hours, by the whole family (who were all locals) I found my son Laszlo (1 yrs) sat on an old spanish ladies lap, being cuddled having his hair stroked while she was yapping on to another. my Zak and 2 other kids were repremanded by the dad of the family for splashing them, then he was getting carried on his shoulders 10 minutes later.
> 
> secure family structure is mostly missing from this country, and its not the kids fault.


In the UK, I take it, casaloca??

That story is sooo typical, not in any way exaggerated. I can just see my daughter's abuela doing the same, and she's not twee or falling over the children at all. It's just an attitude of "I'm an abuela/ mother and that includes all children" attitude. The same happened to my daughter when we were on holiday years ago in Marbella. Withinn 24 hours she had been invited to dinner and to stay the night with the 2 girls who were staying in the house next door


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## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> In the UK, I take it, casaloca??
> 
> That story is sooo typical, not in any way exaggerated. I can just see my daughter's abuela doing the same, and she's not twee or falling over the children at all. It's just an attitude of "I'm an abuela/ mother and that includes all children" attitude. The same happened to my daughter when we were on holiday years ago in Marbella. Withinn 24 hours she had been invited to dinner and to stay the night with the 2 girls who were staying in the house next door


it _is_ typical

where we live there are many Spanish families who have holiday homes - my dds are always included in everything they do (& more so when they discovered that these 2 blondes are essentially spanish, anyway) - and by extension so are we: - & vice versa

I'm perfectly happy for my kids to be told off if they do something wrong - I know it won't be held against them forever and a few minutes later they'll be getting hugs

so different to the English families - no mixing - no inviting the kids in, or allowing their kids to go into your house - getting upset & yelling at you if you have the audacity to tell little Johnny off for throwing the cat in the pool

the Spanish kids would be terrified that you'd tell their parents that they had mis-behaved & will happily take a ticking off from you - the English kids will run & tell daddy & mummy that you are picking on them


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## Pesky Wesky

lynn said:


> What good sense you write Pesky.... I'm too busy raising and educating my three to spend time analysing what's best/better educationally... Support the school they attend, and they will do the best they can. It's a partnership between the school and family after all.


Yes, it's a partnership, or sorry, it _should _be a partnership between the 2 wherever you live. Unfortunately in real life it often isn't, is it?

One thing I learnt from an American friend here was you've got to keep on top of it, you as a parent will have to work at finding out about your child's school performance. I don't know if it's like that in the UK or not, but I wasn't so aware of that until I heard her story. 
So you may get your child's report and find out he got a 3 (fail) because he didn't hand in a piece of work, he wrote the exam in pencil (!!), he has severe problems understanding, he has behavioural problems etc etc. The only thing you can (probably) guarantee that they'll tell you about are absences without permission. All other things, if you don't ask you'll find out about, but too late to remedy the situation. I have found when I've gone to the schools to ask for a meeting 99% of the time I've been very well received and potential problems have been sorted out, but they won't necessarily get in touch with you if there's a problem. 
It's your responsibility to know what's going on at school.


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## casaloco

Pesky Wesky said:


> In the UK, I take it, casaloca??
> 
> That story is sooo typical, not in any way exaggerated. I can just see my daughter's abuela doing the same, and she's not twee or falling over the children at all. It's just an attitude of "I'm an abuela/ mother and that includes all children" attitude. The same happened to my daughter when we were on holiday years ago in Marbella. Withinn 24 hours she had been invited to dinner and to stay the night with the 2 girls who were staying in the house next door


yes sorry UK!!

i remember being so proud of my school work, and mainly encouraged by a large extended family. my great uncle Gilbert would be wanting to see my stories and project work, great auntie joan was always interested in my art, uncle arther helped me with mental maths by getting me to 'beat the snooker referee adding the ball scores up' watching grandstand on a sunday afternoon. if i had a particularly good report my uncle gary and auntie lynn would take me to london on a trip.

the local 'BEAT BOBBY' (who knew every one of us and where we lived and who we lived with) hearing the words 'i'll be going to see your grandmother later, was not un common!!!! anyway he would always come up to my friends and i ask about school and praise us if we had done well, the old man who used to sit outside his house with his pipe was the same.

most older people these days are too scared of the youth to even speak to them never mind help them.
we had a wonderful Polish couple (moved here during the war) in our *village* who my son adopted as grandparents, they used to put on tea parties outside for the kids on sunday afternoons, sit there with them and chat.
they were eventually driven out by drunken youths, throwing apples and other things at the side of their house.

Where is the respect?? i know its no good dwelling, its all gone, such a shame.


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## bob_bob

Sonrisa said:


> Interesting...
> 
> Well I am under the belief that discipline should be learnt at home. Teachers are there to teach subjects, not to discipline unruly children..


I almost agree with you other than teachers need recourse to some discipline these days as the parents (or more often 'parent' these days) seem to have no control on those they bred.

Both my children could read before School age, my three year old grandson can now, because my ex and I took time to teach our children and my daughter and her partner (and ex and I) are doing the same with my grandson. Spending time with your children helps establish boundaries for them AND you. Monday to Thursday is fixed meal and bed times, cut some slack the weekends, School work takes priority over play but once the work is done to a good standard then off you go. Set achievable goals, not easy goals that won't stretch the child, praise where due, constructive criticism where appropriate and rewards from time to time. Failure makes success so much sweeter when it comes 

Family is vital.


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## jojo

bob_bob said:


> I almost agree with you other than teachers need recourse to some discipline these days as the parents (or more often 'parent' these days) seem to have no control on those they bred.
> 
> Both my children could read before School age, my three year old grandson can now, because my ex and I took time to teach our children and my daughter and her partner (and ex and I) are doing the same with my grandson. Spending time with your children helps establish boundaries for them AND you. Monday to Thursday is fixed meal and bed times, cut some slack the weekends, School work takes priority over play but once the work is done to a good standard then off you go. Set achievable goals, not easy goals that won't stretch the child, praise where due, constructive criticism where appropriate and rewards from time to time. Failure makes success so much sweeter when it comes
> 
> Family is vital.


Family isnt really vital. What is vital is security, respect and discipline. My first husband left us when my two older daughters were toddlers and we were on our own for a good few years. I had a mother who lived a few miles away, but apart from her, that was it, apart from our friends!! I was lucky, I somehow gave my daughters what was needed to enable them to grow up to be kind, hard working and beautiful adults (most of the time lol)

I think single parents without a family network may flounder a bit, they dont make home life feel secure and they dont have the confidence or even the desire to set boundaries and teach respect. 

Respect and manners are what is lacking today IMO and its something that is sliding by the wayside almost daily - even silly things like police on the beat in the UK are now being encouraged to use their first names, kids being allowed to bad mouth teachers, heck, even daring to without any consequences is outrageous! 

Jo xxx


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## casaloco

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yes, it's a partnership, or sorry, it _should _be a partnership between the 2 wherever you live. Unfortunately in real life it often isn't, is it?


This is so true. why do the majority of teachers get into teaching? because they are dedicated to helping kids learn. if you work with them they work with you, and are probably glad your with them not against them.

i was talking to a parent/helper of one of my gymnasts the other day after a parent had come into my class and *told* me what moves to teach their kids,

i said "they wouldnt go into their childrens school and tell them how or what to teach" well apparently she said some parents do just that. 

No matter where you are in the world there is good schools and bad schools.
i moved my son out of his primary school as soon as i could drive,

His Head teacher, to my face called him 'Stupid and Lazy' he was falling behind in english and getting very frustrated and angry. i took him to see a wonderful old lady for some tutoring, (she had founded the first ever boarding school for children with learning dificulties back in the 40's or something like that)

it was so funny, i took him to this little cottage, was promptly thrown out by this 70 yr old for 20 minutes, summoned back in from the village green and told my son was dyslexic. not overly so, but enough for him to have huge problems with comprehension. and mild problems reading. his school would not accept her report and refused to do a education department test.

i took him to another school, they were wonderful, for his sats they gave him a quite room to do his tests and someone to verbally ask the questions. got average in everything so that was good.


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## dinnow

Isn't it a sign of old age when we begin sentences with "When I was that age ...." or "In my days ....." 
The world is run my men in their forties who came through an education system that our predecessors no doubt denigrated just as we do now. And the level of education is such that industry and commerce are able to recruit sufficient number of bright young things to keep GDP rising - world economic cycles notwithstanding. So the education system meets the economic needs of most countries in the world.
Guess nostalgia just ain't what it used to be


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## fourgotospain

Having had a mad weekend and no internet (ahhh Spain...!) I've missed all this! What an interesting discussion. Just thought I'd add that it's important to remember the hard times that have hit Spain in the last 2-3 years - none of us have any idea of the job prospects of spanish fluent well educated UK born children in 8/10 years time, which is when primary kids will be starting in the workplace.

One thing I do think is very unfair though, is bringing your toddler to Spain, educating them solely in the British/International system, thus forcing them to move away from the only home they've ever known to do further education or work. I know several people with miserable 18 yr olds who started at UK uni's this winter - the coldest for 25 years!


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## casaloco

jojo said:


> Family isnt really vital. What is vital is security, respect and discipline. My first husband left us when my two older daughters were toddlers and we were on our own for a good few years. I had a mother who lived a few miles away, but apart from her, that was it, apart from our friends!! I was lucky, I somehow gave my daughters what was needed to enable them to grow up to be kind, hard working and beautiful adults (most of the time lol)


I would agree Family is not Vital, but it is so much better if you can have it. (family does not always have to be blood relations,) I had a wonderful family who supported me to the hilt, then at 13 it all crashed around my ears and i was on my own, in a stange place with no support, even from my mother who prefered to be in the pub. then i failed school miserably, only 3 o'grades.


Some single parents do a wonderful job and bring up well rounded, well mannered individuals, who respect their elders and teachers. i was a single parent from the age of 19, on my own, with no family and destitute. we built ourselves up moved to a better place when he was 3. my son had won 4 british titles by the time he was 12 and i met my now partner. sadly no he didnt do well at school due to bullying that we could not stop.

but sadly their are alot of single, and 2 parent families that dont care and let their kids run around like loonys and harrass other people (2 in our street) 3 year olds out playing by themselves for hours!!!!!


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## casaloco

dinnow said:


> Isn't it a sign of old age when we begin sentences with "When I was that age ...." or "In my days ....."
> 
> Guess nostalgia just ain't what it used to be


Ah, a mild mid life crisis with a hint of nostalgia is allowed


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## star77

fourgotospain said:


> One thing I do think is very unfair though, is bringing your toddler to Spain, educating them solely in the British/International system, thus forcing them to move away from the only home they've ever known to do further education or work. I know several people with miserable 18 yr olds who started at UK uni's this winter - the coldest for 25 years!


I don't really understand the thinking behind this - what happens to the thousands of Spanish kids who attend British and International schools? Surely they enter Spanish 3rd level/workforce and don't all have to travel to the UK to go to university???


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## jojo

star77 said:


> I don't really understand the thinking behind this - what happens to the thousands of Spanish kids who attend British and International schools? Surely they enter Spanish 3rd level/workforce and don't all have to travel to the UK to go to university???



International schools dont make children fluent in Spanish - some do become fairly fluent, but its not something thats taught. The lessons follow the english curriculum, are taught in English by english speaking teachers. In some international schools, speaking any other language, but english isnt allowed, even in the playground. 

My son is probably a classic example, altho we have only been here for 3 years. He's now 16 and is about to take his GCSEs in Spain. When he's finished, he wants to do A-levels, which had could do at the international school and leave when he's 18 - to do what??????? He's not fluent ienough to go onto university in spain by any stretch, he's probably only just about fluent enough to get a manual job (if there were any jobs available). So, at the moment he's probably going back to the UK to do his A-levels there and then go on to university there. 

Spanish kids, speak Spanish in their homes and speak english at school, so therefore become bilingual and can go onto spanish or english college/university

Jo xxx


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## xabiaxica

jojo said:


> International schools dont make children fluent in Spanish - some do become fairly fluent, but its not something thats taught. The lessons follow the english curriculum, are taught in English by english speaking teachers. In some international schools, speaking any other language, but english isnt allowed, even in the playground.
> 
> My son is probably a classic example, altho we have only been here for 3 years. He's now 16 and is about to take his GCSEs in Spain. When he's finished, he wants to do A-levels, which had could do at the international school and leave when he's 18 - to do what??????? He's not fluent ienough to go onto university in spain by any stretch, he's probably only just about fluent enough to get a manual job (if there were any jobs available). So, at the moment he's probably going back to the UK to do his A-levels there and then go on to university there.
> 
> *Spanish kids, speak Spanish in their homes and speak english at school, so therefore become bilingual and can go onto spanish or english college/university*
> 
> Jo xxx


exactly - a Spanish kid who goes through the British/International school system from a young age should grow up bilingual as long as they keep up with Spanish speaking at home - & reading & writing in Spanish too - so have a choice

just as an English kid who goes through the Spanish system from a young age should grow up bilingual as long as they keep up with English speaking at home - & reading & writing in English too - so also have a choice


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## bob_bob

In the valleys of Wales there are far too many children having children, 14, 15, 16 year old children firing out babies. When the parent is ignorant of social grace and uneducated what chance does the child have


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## xabiaxica

bob_bob said:


> In the valleys of Wales there are far too many children having children, 14, 15, 16 year old children firing out babies. When the parent is ignorant of social grace and uneducated what chance does the child have


but we're talking about Spain.......................


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## casaloco

xabiachica said:


> but we're talking about Spain.......................


:focus:

there seems to be some differences on what people are saying about school times.
do not all primary schools have the same school hours???


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## xabiaxica

casaloco said:


> :focus:
> 
> there seems to be some differences on what people are saying about school times.
> do not all primary schools have the same school hours???


it does vary around the country quite a bit - here they do 9-12.30 with a half hour break at 11ish then 3-4.30

they can stay at school for lunch at 12.30 or go home & return at 3pm

if they go to school on the school bus & live more than 3km from school they get free lunches:clap2: - quite a saving at over 4€ per child per day

they usually can't use the bus if they live less than 3km from school, but if there is room they will be allowed to (by prior arrangement) but then you still have to pay for lunch

then in June & September that all changes - they are at school from 9am to 1pm with just a half hour break at 11ish - & there is no afternoon session


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## casaloco

xabiachica said:


> it does vary around the country quite a bit - here they do 9-12.30 with a half hour break at 11ish then 3-4.30
> 
> they can stay at school for lunch at 12.30 or go home & return at 3pm
> 
> if they go to school on the school bus & live more than 3km from school they get free lunches:clap2: - quite a saving at over 4€ per child per day
> 
> they usually can't use the bus if they live less than 3km from school, but if there is room they will be allowed to (by prior arrangement) but then you still have to pay for lunch
> 
> then in June & September that all changes - they are at school from 9am to 1pm with just a half hour break at 11ish - & there is no afternoon session


Brill, thanks for that.

do most go home? what do they do if they stay for lunch for 2 and half hours?


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## xabiaxica

casaloco said:


> Brill, thanks for that.
> 
> do most go home? what do they do if they stay for lunch for 2 and half hours?


at my dd's school most seem to stay for lunch

AMPA the parent assoc runs various clubs quite cheaply - and a lot of the older kids use the time to do homework - there is a covered area in the playground for them with desks (inside in winter) 

also there are table tennis tables, basketball hoops, climbing frames & a sandpit & so on - and the monitoras (dinner ladies) don't just stand around - they actually play with the kids - one of them takes in a boom box & they do dancing


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## bob_bob

xabiachica said:


> but we're talking about Spain.......................


Sorry, but its a growing problem in Spain too

Teenage pregnancy (most recent) by country


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## Pesky Wesky

xabiachica said:


> it does vary around the country quite a bit - here they do 9-12.30 with a half hour break at 11ish then 3-4.30
> 
> they can stay at school for lunch at 12.30 or go home & return at 3pm
> 
> if they go to school on the school bus & live more than 3km from school they get free lunches:clap2: - quite a saving at over 4€ per child per day
> 
> they usually can't use the bus if they live less than 3km from school, but if there is room they will be allowed to (by prior arrangement) but then you still have to pay for lunch
> 
> then in June & September that all changes - they are at school from 9am to 1pm with just a half hour break at 11ish - & there is no afternoon session


I think the vast majority still have this timetable, but some primary schools have_ horario continuo_ which is 9:00 - 14:00 with 2 breaks in there in think. If the school follows that option you can usually choose for the child to stay on for lunch, and then do an after school activity if you want. That means you'd be picking him/ her up at 1600 - 16:30, which is the same time as a normal school day. Like everything, there are arguments for and against this timetable that are hotly debated in primary schools. One of the arguments for is that it ties in with the state school secondary timetable as those kids don't get the option of eating a cooked meal at school. Their school day is smth like 8:30 - 14:30 - home for lunch or a Spanish size sandwich in the school cafeteria.
Be careful with the primary school lunch facilities too. Sometimes there aren't enough places for all the children to have lunch at school. Both parents may be asked to present proof (a pay slip, or a letter from your employers) to say that you work away from home and therefore can't provide lunch for your child. Sometimes it depends on how many parents have asked for school lunches for their kids. Sometimes the school knows that they just don't have the facilities for all the children that are registered. However, with all the unemployment I imagine that plenty of parents are taking their children home now!
And about the dinners ladies. When my daughter was in primary the dinner ladies actually had training sessions on activities to do with the kids and some of them were excellent. Some were right old bags though, as always


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## xabiaxica

bob_bob said:


> Sorry, but its a growing problem in Spain too
> 
> Teenage pregnancy (most recent) by country


yes, of course teen preganacy happens here too

Teenage birth rate (most recent) by country



I can't work out how your link seems to show that it doesn't in the UK!!!:confused2:

Teenage pregnancy (most recent) by country


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## Pesky Wesky

You know, writing on this thread has reminded me of a few things that are different in the UK and Spanish education systems, and which can throw you a bit if you don't know, so here are a few of them that I've remembered.

In State schools...


At lunch time in primary schools the teachers are not in duty. Dinner ladies (I've never met a dinner man, but there might be some) are employed to help in the dining room and then to be on playground duty. In my daughter's school they were supposed to encourage children to join in activities, but they didn't have to. There was often a theme running through the activities. One woman read stories to the younger ones off her own bat.
After school activities are run by the AMPA (PTA) and/ or the town hall. The teachers are not involved. You have to pay, but they are usually heavily subsidised. These activities may also be held at lunchtimes.
The dinnerladies are not teachers, but the people who work in the offices often are! So if the person doing the paperwork doesn't really know what they are doing often it's because he/ she's really a teacher employed as the school secretary for a year. I don't know all the ins and outs of this system, but it's what happens.
99% of the schools don't have lockers so kids end up lugging around rucksacks that weigh far too much for their body weight and many (yes many) children have back problems as a result. In my daughter's school they installed lockers for the first two years (12/ 13 years old) two years ago.
Children can repeat years if their academic performance is poor. It not very common in primary school, but may happen, most likely in the last year before making the jump to secondary school (aged 12). In secondary school however it's _very_ common.
Primary school children get homework. How much depends on the school and teacher.
Marks are given out of 10 and the incredibly low mark of 5 is a pass. By the time children get to secondary school the number 5 is an obsession, an object to be sought not unlike the Holy Grail. Of course, some seek and never find - others bask in the glories of 8's and 9's. Such is life...


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## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> You know, writing on this thread has reminded me of a few things that are different in the UK and Spanish education systems, and which can throw you a bit if you don't know, so here are a few of them that I've remembered.
> 
> In State schools...
> 
> 
> At lunch time in primary schools the teachers are not in duty. Dinner ladies (I've never met a dinner man, but there might be some) are employed to help in the dining room and then to be on playground duty. In my daughter's school they were supposed to encourage children to join in activities, but they didn't have to. There was often a theme running through the activities. One woman read stories to the younger ones off her own bat.
> After school activities are run by the AMPA (PTA) and/ or the town hall. The teachers are not involved. You have to pay, but they are usually heavily subsidised. These activities may also be held at lunchtimes.
> The dinnerladies are not teachers, but the people who work in the offices often are! So if the person doing the paperwork doesn't really know what they are doing often it's because he/ she's really a teacher employed as the school secretary for a year. I don't know all the ins and outs of this system, but it's what happens.
> 99% of the schools don't have lockers so kids end up lugging around rucksacks that weigh far too much for their body weight and many (yes many) children have back problems as a result. In my daughter's school they installed lockers for the first two years (12/ 13 years old) two years ago.
> Children can repeat years if their academic performance is poor. It not very common in primary school, but may happen, most likely in the last year before making the jump to secondary school (aged 12). In secondary school however it's _very_ common.
> Primary school children get homework. How much depends on the school and teacher.
> Marks are given out of 10 and the incredibly low mark of 5 is a pass. By the time children get to secondary school the number 5 is an obsession, an object to be sought not unlike the Holy Grail. Of course, some seek and never find - others bask in the glories of 8's and 9's. Such is life...


we have a_ monitor_ - dinner man at our school he helps supervise in the playground


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## casaloco

most of the primarys round my area (UK) are now dishing out 2-3 hours of homework a night. the kids are in school from 9 til 3.30. 
10 mins break, half hour lunch, i wonder what is taught all day if they need that much homework!!!!

gosh keep thinking 2 and half hours luch break, plenty of time to do a gymnastic club???
ok i do have a one track mind


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## star77

jojo said:


> International schools dont make children fluent in Spanish - some do become fairly fluent, but its not something thats taught. The lessons follow the english curriculum, are taught in English by english speaking teachers. In some international schools, speaking any other language, but english isnt allowed, even in the playground.
> 
> My son is probably a classic example, altho we have only been here for 3 years. He's now 16 and is about to take his GCSEs in Spain. When he's finished, he wants to do A-levels, which had could do at the international school and leave when he's 18 - to do what??????? He's not fluent ienough to go onto university in spain by any stretch, he's probably only just about fluent enough to get a manual job (if there were any jobs available). So, at the moment he's probably going back to the UK to do his A-levels there and then go on to university there.
> 
> Spanish kids, speak Spanish in their homes and speak english at school, so therefore become bilingual and can go onto spanish or english college/university
> 
> Jo xxx


So is it case that Spanish universities won't admit students unless they achieve a certain level of Spanish and is this unachievably high for most students from English speaking families? Is there a requirement to pass Spanish language in International schools?
I'm puzzled because I have personal experience of two scenarios which would appear not to fit in with this way of thinking: (and please don't take offence, I know you have direct experience of the Spanish system, but just hear me out!)

Firstly, I studied Spanish in an Irish University but only took it up when I started in first year so I had very basic Spanish at first. By the Christmas I was studying Spanish literature the same as those who entered university having previously studied Spanish. 
In 3rd year some of my friends went to Spain on an Erasmus year to a Spanish University and had to follow the same curriculum as all the native Spanish speakers. Their Spanish was ok but not the of academic standard used in university. They found it difficult at the start but very quickly got the hang of it.

Secondly, I currently live in Luxembourg where students are required to pass French, English, German and Luxembourgish to graduate from secondary school. The vast majority of these students would only have one and a maximum of two of these languages spoken at home (and many have a 5th language like Portuguese, Italian or Spanish as their mother tongue). Students from Luxembourg attend University here but also many go to France, Belgium, Germany or other countries. 
Also, my husband teaches in a British school where the classes are taught through English and many of the students are native English speakers. It's true that some go to the UK for their further education but equally many stay in Luxembourg or go to other European countries.
How is it that they can survive University taught through their 3rd, 4th or even 5th language? 

I guess my point is that there seems to be a belief that unless your Spanish is fluent you can't attend University in Spain and I can't understand that because there are hundreds of international students in Universities across Europe who are not fluent in the operating language of the institution but who get by and learn as they go. If there is a certain level of Spanish you have to achieve to get in to University in Spain then why not get extra classes to achieve that level the same as you would if you were struggling with Maths or English or another essential subject?


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## xabiaxica

casaloco said:


> most of the primarys round my area (UK) are now dishing out 2-3 hours of homework a night. the kids are in school from 9 til 3.30.
> 10 mins break, half hour lunch, i wonder what is taught all day if they need that much homework!!!!
> 
> gosh keep thinking 2 and half hours luch break, plenty of time to do a gymnastic club???
> ok i do have a one track mind


one of the clubs at our school is a gym club

and 2 - 3 hours of homework is nothing unusual


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## casaloco

xabiachica said:


> one of the clubs at our school is a gym club
> 
> and 2 - 3 hours of homework is nothing unusual


ah thats great, such a fun sport. we do acrobatics so dont need any equipment just mats.


oh dear reckon that is too much homework, what age is that from?


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## Pesky Wesky

star77 said:


> I guess my point is that there seems to be a belief that unless your Spanish is fluent you can't attend University in Spain and I can't understand that because there are hundreds of international students in Universities across Europe who are not fluent in the operating language of the institution but who get by and learn as they go. If there is a certain level of Spanish you have to achieve to get in to University in Spain then why not get extra classes to achieve that level the same as you would if you were struggling with Maths or English or another essential subject?


Well I have to admit, I've often wondered the same and had been thinking about posting smth similar myself, for a long time 'cos it doesn't seem to add up, does it?
The thing is I don't have too much experience of the university end of education, but people go to the UK for example from all over the world and with little fluency in the language. I have a good friend who went to the States from Algeria to study with little more than _Hi how are you_ under his belt. Personally I can't imagine how they do it, but they do, and they get good degrees as well, so what's the story??


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## Guest

Pesky Wesky said:


> I have a good friend who went to the States from Algeria to study with little more than _Hi how are you_ under his belt. Personally I can't imagine how they do it, but they do, and they get good degrees as well, so what's the story??


I know in the States and Canada most boarding schools and universities have very good ESL and international student support teams.

EDIT: To the best of my knowledge, most of the aforementioned educational institutions requires TOEFL results when applying.


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## jojo

star77 said:


> So is it case that Spanish universities won't admit students unless they achieve a certain level of Spanish and is this unachievably high for most students from English speaking families? Is there a requirement to pass Spanish language in International schools?
> I'm puzzled because I have personal experience of two scenarios which would appear not to fit in with this way of thinking: (and please don't take offence, I know you have direct experience of the Spanish system, but just hear me out!)
> 
> Firstly, I studied Spanish in an Irish University but only took it up when I started in first year so I had very basic Spanish at first. By the Christmas I was studying Spanish literature the same as those who entered university having previously studied Spanish.
> In 3rd year some of my friends went to Spain on an Erasmus year to a Spanish University and had to follow the same curriculum as all the native Spanish speakers. Their Spanish was ok but not the of academic standard used in university. They found it difficult at the start but very quickly got the hang of it.
> 
> Secondly, I currently live in Luxembourg where students are required to pass French, English, German and Luxembourgish to graduate from secondary school. The vast majority of these students would only have one and a maximum of two of these languages spoken at home (and many have a 5th language like Portuguese, Italian or Spanish as their mother tongue). Students from Luxembourg attend University here but also many go to France, Belgium, Germany or other countries.
> Also, my husband teaches in a British school where the classes are taught through English and many of the students are native English speakers. It's true that some go to the UK for their further education but equally many stay in Luxembourg or go to other European countries.
> How is it that they can survive University taught through their 3rd, 4th or even 5th language?
> 
> I guess my point is that there seems to be a belief that unless your Spanish is fluent you can't attend University in Spain and I can't understand that because there are hundreds of international students in Universities across Europe who are not fluent in the operating language of the institution but who get by and learn as they go. If there is a certain level of Spanish you have to achieve to get in to University in Spain then why not get extra classes to achieve that level the same as you would if you were struggling with Maths or English or another essential subject?


Right. I guess I'm talking from how I feel about my kids (and their British friends) and what they've learnt in their international school - which is quite spanish compared to some (head mistress is Spanish, alot of the teachers are spanish). My son is slightly better at speaking and writing spanish than he would have been if he's stayed in the UK and learnt it at school, but not by much - I'd say that my spanish is better than his and I've just learnt it out and about. He'll probably pass his Spanish GCSE. If he were to stay at the school til he was 18, he'd take spanish A-level which would then be academically good enough to do to university - he would struggle to get thru the interview or any entrance exams, which would be in Spanish and if he did get in, he would struggle and have to work extremely hard to understand or pass anything - and then what??? Well yes, he'd by then be fluent in Spanish, so he could put that talent under his belt, but why bother when it would be easier and more natural for him to study in his native tongue and country, with more job prospects at the end of it?? Teenage boys have a tendency to be lazy!

I suppose what I'm saying is that its no different to him doing a Spanish GCSE and A level in england and then coming over to Spain to go to University - or French and going to a french university - it would be an unnecessary handicap and a major hurdle and ultimately could prove to be a waste of time if he fails! Altho my son isnt the brightest at the school, he's pretty much a bench mark for the linguistic abilities of his British peers. That said, there are a fair few kids there who have multi national parents and can speak a variety of languages, so who knows where they'll end up?? It seem to depend on the parents and what languages they learn in the home as to what language the kids feel comfortable learning in! But dont be fooled into thinking that the school will teach kids to be fluent in the language of the country in which its situated - well certainly from what I know of international schools in this area

Also, rumour has it that Spanish universities arent as good as the UK ones - although I'm not sure if thats true, certainly not in this day and age!?

Jo xxx


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## jojo

...... As a foot note, my son has just told me that one or two kids he goes to school with who have been here since they were little are very good at Spanish and have done Spanish as their second language - these lads are capable of going to Spanish university, altho, their parents are also fluent in Spanish and the choice of going to the UK to finish their education isnt really a viable option

Jo xxx


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## Caz.I

jojo said:


> Right. I guess I'm talking from how I feel about my kids (and their British friends) and what they've learnt in their international school - which is quite spanish compared to some (head mistress is Spanish, alot of the teachers are spanish). My son is slightly better at speaking and writing spanish than he would have been if he's stayed in the UK and learnt it at school, but not by much - I'd say that my spanish is better than his and I've just learnt it out and about. He'll probably pass his Spanish GCSE. If he were to stay at the school til he was 18, he'd take spanish A-level which would then be academically good enough to do to university - he would struggle to get thru the interview or any entrance exams, which would be in Spanish and if he did get in, he would struggle and have to work extremely hard to understand or pass anything - and then what??? Well yes, he'd by then be fluent in Spanish, so he could put that talent under his belt, but why bother when it would be easier and more natural for him to study in his native tongue and country, with more job prospects at the end of it?? Teenage boys have a tendency to be lazy!
> 
> I suppose what I'm saying is that its no different to him doing a Spanish GCSE and A level in england and then coming over to Spain to go to University - or French and going to a french university - it would be an unnecessary handicap and a major hurdle and ultimately could prove to be a waste of time if he fails! Altho my son isnt the brightest at the school, he's pretty much a bench mark for the linguistic abilities of his British peers. That said, there are a fair few kids there who have multi national parents and can speak a variety of languages, so who knows where they'll end up?? It seem to depend on the parents and what languages they learn in the home as to what language the kids feel comfortable learning in! But dont be fooled into thinking that the school will teach kids to be fluent in the language of the country in which its situated - well certainly from what I know of international schools in this area
> 
> Also, rumour has it that Spanish universities arent as good as the UK ones - although I'm not sure if thats true, certainly not in this day and age!?
> 
> Jo xxx


I dont know if that is true either! I had a conversation last year with a university lecturer in the UK who was saying that these days many UK degrees weren't up to much (apart from the top ones).

There are Spanish universities that admit exchange students from English speaking or other European universities, and so I imagine that all students don't necessarily have to be fluent either. However, I was under the impression (perhaps mistakenly) that for school leavers here, it was necessary to pass the Selectivity exam to gain entry into a Spanish university, and so that would naturally be in Spanish. Therefore, even with A level Spanish, the problem would be studying other subjects in Spanish to degree level. It would be double the challenge and so twice as hard for non native speakers!

Re the secondary schools, as well as the international schools with the British curriculum, there are private bilingual Spanish schools, which English speaking children can also attend. I work in one of these schools, and there are a few English children who do Bachillerato but sometimes go on to university either here, in the States or the UK. But I dont know if they came here when they were very young.

I know the International Baccaulaurate is accepted by many UK universities these days, perhaps this includes the Bachillerato? I also read recently that the Dept of Education in the UK were considering a similar style qualification to be introduced, as an alternative option to existing secondary school qualifications. I was also under the impression that there were opportunities in some international schools to choose between A levels and Bachillerato?

My son was born here, and is more Spanish than British and I am worried about his written English more than anything (although he doesnt want to speak English either). As it happens, we may be going to another English speaking country for a few years so everything is up in the air. And while it is obviously important to consider the long term educational prospects, sometimes circumstances are the deciding factor in choosing between the different systems. Moreover, I am not convinced that most people who come here with children from the UK will live here permanently. (Apart from those with Spanish relatives.) And, as previously mentioned, job opportunities are much more limited for non-native Spanish speakers.


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## Pesky Wesky

Well, there's nothing I like better than a good old discussion about education on the forum. I'm 

lapping this one up, so a big  thank you  to everyone for contributing.

I'll be posting later with the little I know about universities, but got to go to work now, (after the 

worst night's sleep ever!!)

What with this and the Pesky Wesky plants I had a lovely day on the forum yesterday. On Sunday I met the bookclub group here, the sun is shining... What more can you ask for?????


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## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well I have to admit, I've often wondered the same and had been thinking about posting smth similar myself, for a long time 'cos it doesn't seem to add up, does it?
> The thing is I don't have too much experience of the university end of education, but people go to the UK for example from all over the world and with little fluency in the language. I have a good friend who went to the States from Algeria to study with little more than _Hi how are you_ under his belt. Personally I can't imagine how they do it, but they do, and they get good degrees as well, so what's the story??


yes they can do it, but as a foreign student, and from what I understand their spanish still has tobe at a certain level, though not fluent, obviously - & they are given spanish lessons

of course a child who has grown up here but attended british/int school might get in as 'foreign' but perhaps the unis would expect fluency from a child in that position - I don't know:confused2:

of course a kid who had been through the spanish system would be judged against his peers & would for sure need to be fluent, don't you think?


----------



## adinanz

Caz.I said:


> Re the secondary schools, as well as the international schools with the British curriculum,* there are private bilingual Spanish schools, which English speaking children can also attend.* I work in one of these schools, and there are a few English children who do Bachillerato but sometimes go on to university either here, in the States or the UK. But I dont know if they came here when they were very young.
> 
> I know the International Baccaulaurate is accepted by many UK universities these days, perhaps this includes the Bachillerato? I also read recently that the Dept of Education in the UK were considering a similar style qualification to be introduced, as an alternative option to existing secondary school qualifications. I was also under the impression that there were opportunities in some international schools to choose between A levels and Bachillerato?.


I am happy to hear there are private bilingual Spanish schools, I would be very interested to find out more about them. Any idea what the fees for these ones are and the entry requirements?

Many thanks


----------



## xabiaxica

adinanz said:


> I am happy to hear there are private bilingual Spanish schools, I would be very interested to find out more about them. Any idea what the fees for these ones are and the entry requirements?
> 
> Many thanks


there are many all over the country - although most seem to be in/near big cities

many are boarding though, too

I can't tell you anything from personal experience but if you google _colegios bilingües privados españa_ you get tons to read about


----------



## adinanz

I am not sure, but is this school bilingual?
Anyone has information about Colegio San Jose, Estepona?

Colegios en Estepona Málaga - Colegio Privado San José


----------



## jojo

adinanz said:


> I am not sure, but is this school bilingual?
> Anyone has information about Colegio San Jose, Estepona?
> 
> Colegios en Estepona Málaga - Colegio Privado San José


I dont know this school, but there are a lot of so called bilingual schools in Andalucia, altho in the main they're not private. There is a trend that all schools are supposed to be bilingual, which means that the teachers can speak english and will teach some subjects in english. My daughter went to a bilingual ESO before she went to international and ironically, she wasnt allowed to take part in the bilingual lessons, because she was english and didnt need to??????!!!!!

Like I say, I dont know what its like in private schools or that one in particular

Jo xxxx


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## fourgotospain

> So is it case that Spanish universities won't admit students unless they achieve a certain level of Spanish and is this unachievably high for most students from English speaking families?


Yes it is unacheivably high. Lots of english speaking families with children at International school live in an expat bubble, using english services, banking, extracurricular clubs etc, without even taking spanish lessons in their new country. It is as much their idea that their child will fair better in the UK for tertiary education as anything else, and yes, as someone else has said, snobbery. IMHO passing spanish GCSE should be compulsory in yr 8 of international school - these kids live in Spain for goodness sake!


----------



## bob_bob

Pesky Wesky said:


> You know, writing on this thread has reminded me of a few things that are different in the UK and Spanish education systems, and which can throw you a bit if you don't know, so here are a few of them that I've remembered.
> 
> In State schools...
> 
> 
> Marks are given out of 10 and the incredibly low mark of *5 is a pass*. By the time children get to secondary school the number 5 is an obsession, an object to be sought not unlike the Holy Grail. Of course, some seek and never find - others bask in the glories of 8's and 9's. Such is life...


Its only 4 out of 10 for a degree.


----------



## xabiaxica

fourgotospain said:


> Yes it is unacheivably high. Lots of english speaking families with children at International school live in an expat bubble, using english services, banking, extracurricular clubs etc, without even taking spanish lessons in their new country. It is as much their idea that their child will fair better in the UK for tertiary education as anything else, and yes, as someone else has said, snobbery. IMHO passing spanish GCSE should be compulsory in yr 8 of international school - these kids live in Spain for goodness sake!


I don't know if it is compulsory - but you're right, it should be - it IS compulsory for them to study a certain number of hours of Spanish a week

sadly, many don't stand much chance of passing - even though the exam itself is pretty much a walkover - you even get to write a lot of your answers in English

for the oral you get to prepare a little speech & even submit what questions you want to be asked in advance - so can prepare your answers


nothing like I remember my French o'level:confused2:


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## dinnow

Why do you have this overwhelming need to tell other people how to live their lives? If some parents are happy to have their children educated at international schools and don't excel at Spanish what the hell business is it of yours? They do you no harm and let you live your lives as you choose. Have the courtesy to do the same.


----------



## xabiaxica

dinnow said:


> Why do you have this overwhelming need to tell other people how to live their lives? If some parents are happy to have their children educated at international schools and don't excel at Spanish what the hell business is it of yours? They do you no harm and let you live your lives as you choose. Have the courtesy to do the same.


who are you talking to?


me or FGTS?

either way - we're not telling people how to live their lives - merely stating an opinion that we think it's a wasted opportunity to not learn the language of the country in which they live

quite how they actually manage it is beyond me too

the govt states that they have to study a certain number of hours of spanish a weekeve- at least 4 I think - so how they manage to fail what is truly a walkover exam even for someone who has never even been to spain beggars belief!


----------



## jojo

dinnow said:


> Why do you have this overwhelming need to tell other people how to live their lives? If some parents are happy to have their children educated at international schools and don't excel at Spanish what the hell business is it of yours? They do you no harm and let you live your lives as you choose. Have the courtesy to do the same.



You could have made that same statement in a much nicer way, which actually would have encouraged people to read what you've written and maybe even agree with you, instead of getting peoples backs up. Diplomacy and tact go a long way to helping everyone to get on and integrate with each other.

I suggest everytime you write a less than polite post, it should be ignored !

Jo xxxx


----------



## dinnow

xabiachica said:


> sadly, many don't stand much chance of passing - even though the exam itself is pretty much a walkover - you even get to write a lot of your answers in English
> 
> for the oral you get to prepare a little speech & even submit what questions you want to be asked in advance - so can prepare your answers
> 
> 
> nothing like I remember my French o'level:confused2:


Basically you are saying that today's kids are thick; the exams are a piece of cake; and in your day exams were really tough. Can't you see how patronising that is? 
I don't know whether Spanish (as a second language) is compulsory in international schools in Spain. In England, a modern foreign language is part of the core curriculum, but many fail to pass GCSE in a foreign language because they have no aptitude for language. They may be brilliant mathematicians but rubbish at language. It is a different part of the brain that relies on having a good ear as opposed to a good intellect. I am simply suggesting that you don't denigrate kids whose talents may well be greater in other fields.
And instead of the simplistic mantra of "they're in Spain so they should learn Spanish" try to see the bigger picture that they are here not because they chose to be but because their parents had their own agenda that in many cases has little to do with what is in the best interests of the children.


----------



## jojo

xabiachica said:


> I don't know if it is compulsory - but you're right, it should be - it IS compulsory for them to study a certain number of hours of Spanish a week
> 
> sadly, many don't stand much chance of passing - even though the exam itself is pretty much a walkover - you even get to write a lot of your answers in English
> 
> for the oral you get to prepare a little speech & even submit what questions you want to be asked in advance - so can prepare your answers
> 
> 
> nothing like I remember my French o'level:confused2:



I should just say that both my kids can speak spanish, I've just heard jack on the phone chatting in spanish to a friend from school. Ruby can, but wont - she went to Spanish school for 18 months, hated it and is simply being belligerent about it! That said, the GCSE Spanish is no different to an english person doing the GCSE English. Just being able to speak the language and live in the country does not make you able to pass the exam! Anyway, I guess the bottom line for us is that I want my kids to do well and quite frankly, I think that because they're english and have been for the first and most educationally important 10 years of their lives, then they should go to an english university (if thats what they want to do) and continue with their english education - and more importantly that is what they feel would be best for them. 

Jo xxxx


----------



## star77

jojo said:


> You could have made that same statement in a much nicer way, which actually would have encouraged people to read what you've written and maybe even agree with you, instead of getting peoples backs up. Diplomacy and tact go a long way to helping everyone to get on and integrate with each other.
> 
> I suggest everytime you write a less than polite post, it should be ignored !
> 
> Jo xxxx


I agree completely and I think Dinnow's comment was pretty irrelevant anyway. Sounds like Dinnow has his/her own issues that don't really relate to the discussion here. Personal attacks are not what a forum like this is about. If you have a relevant argument with something to back it up go ahead, if you just want to rant, find a more appropriate outlet! :boxing:


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Caz.I said:


> I dont know if that is true either! I had a conversation last year with a university lecturer in the UK who was saying that these days many UK degrees weren't up to much (apart from the top ones).
> 
> I've said before on the forum, I think sometimes too much importance is attached to going to the best university for XXX degree and a lot of publicity has been given to declining standards in recent years. That said, I have seen a table somewhere of European universities and Spain wasn't near the top.
> There are Spanish universities that admit exchange students from English speaking or other European universities, and so I imagine that all students don't necessarily have to be fluent either.
> I heard smth on the radio the other day about a university that was talking about their international students, but I can't remember where it was. The student ranged from beginners to advanced level of Spanish
> However, I was under the impression (perhaps mistakenly) that for school leavers here, it was necessary to pass the Selectivity exam to gain entry into a Spanish university, and so that would naturally be in Spanish. Therefore, even with A level Spanish, the problem would be studying other subjects in Spanish to degree level. It would be double the challenge and so twice as hard for non native speakers!
> Yes, to get into university there isn't an interview, but there is an entrance exam. It's not selectividad any more, but PAU Prueba de Aceso a la Universidad (see post 32 etc). You have between four and six exams to take


***


----------



## Pesky Wesky

star77 said:


> I agree completely and I think Dinnow's comment was pretty irrelevant anyway. Sounds like Dinnow has his/her own issues that don't really relate to the discussion here. Personal attacks are not what a forum like this is about. If you have a relevant argument with something to back it up go ahead, if you just want to rant, find a more appropriate outlet! :boxing:


That's what I think too, star77


----------



## casaloco

dinnow said:


> I don't know whether Spanish (as a second language) is compulsory in international schools in Spain. In England, a modern foreign language is part of the core curriculum, but many fail to pass GCSE in a foreign language because they have no aptitude for language.


it is true a foreign language is part of the core curriculum up to KS4, but alot of the kids choose not to take the GCSE in the first place.
most kids live on the poverty line with parents that cant get a job, or on minimum wage, and have never been abroad, so they see no point in learning a language.

if you move into someone elses country you should have the decency to make an effort to learn their language.


----------



## jojo

casaloco said:


> it is true a foreign language is part of the core curriculum up to KS4, but alot of the kids choose not to take the GCSE in the first place.
> most kids live on the poverty line with parents that cant get a job, or on minimum wage, and have never been abroad, so they see no point in learning a language.
> 
> if you move into someone elses country you should have the decency to make an effort to learn their language.


..... and how many kids pass their own language at GCSE level. I know of many who failed English and were English living in England - I'm sure we all do. Poverty is no excuse for not getting good grades in any GCSEs. Neither is the incentive of visiting a country a reason to achieve.

Jo xxx


----------



## xabiaxica

jojo said:


> ..... and how many kids pass their own language at GCSE level. I know of many who failed English and were English living in England - I'm sure we all do. Poverty is no excuse for not getting good grades in any GCSEs. Neither is the incentive of visiting a country a reason to achieve.
> 
> Jo xxx


you're right - and yet so many do fail


GCSE Spanish is simple - at the foundation level all the questions & most of the answers are in English - a lot of it is just 'tick the box'

I think if you are living in spain & being exposed to the language at some level on a daily basis - not even to the extent of watching spanish tele & so on - just walking down the street & doing normal daily things - you would actually have to work quite hard to fail it IMO


----------



## MaidenScotland

One good reason for children learning Spanish is that they can sit and talk about their parents without consequences.. my grandchildren do it all the time to their dad and it drives him potty, he can get by in Spanish but of course the children are bi lingual so can out "talk" him. It is also a good reason why parents should learn, that way they know what the little ******s are up to.
My grandsons Spanish friends love going to my daughters house and they will not speak Spanish when there they tell her " hey Lynda we have a free English lesson in your house." they even phone her up to practice their English.

Maiden


----------



## jojo

xabiachica said:


> you're right - and yet so many do fail
> 
> 
> GCSE Spanish is simple - at the foundation level all the questions & most of the answers are in English - a lot of it is just 'tick the box'
> 
> I think if you are living in spain & being exposed to the language at some level on a daily basis - not even to the extent of watching spanish tele & so on - just walking down the street & doing normal daily things - you would actually have to work quite hard to fail it IMO



But what about those dreadful verb endings AAAAAAAGGGGGGGHHHHH Thats was my downfall. ER, IR, AR and the irregulars. When I talk I usually try to kinda blend them in so no-one knows what ending I used, but in an exam?????????

Jo xxxx


----------



## casaloco

jojo said:


> ..... and how many kids pass their own language at GCSE level. I know of many who failed English and were English living in England - I'm sure we all do. Poverty is no excuse for not getting good grades in any GCSEs. Neither is the incentive of visiting a country a reason to achieve.
> 
> Jo xxx


oh i know, i was living in poverty at 15 and even i still managed to pass, english, maths and artithmatic.
i see alot of children every week who are motivated young people in general, and do ok with their exams, one girl got 9 A*'s and 2 A's at GCSE level, :clap2: but out of 13 kids i have at college age only 1 will go onto university and these people are not too short of money. 
more and more of them though are not trying very hard with their schooling, and sadly most of them dont see the point of doing well. i have even been asked to threaten one boy with NO GYM if he doesnt do his homework, mother reports he is now studying!!!!! 

then another group of kids i have (not gymnasts) they come into a free running group. approx 20 of them, mostly teenage boys, oh what a difference, dont get me wrong they sort of behave as they know they wont be allowed in otherwise. they always push the boundries. they are lovely lads really. not one of them has any interest in school and laugh when i ask how their school work is doing? if you ask them what they want to do when they leave school they just shrug and say they dont know. so sad.


----------



## jojo

I was a single parent when my two older daughters were children and they did fine, got GCSEs and A-levels and are now both cabin crew for an airline (for which they didnt need their qualifications) My Stepdaughter, who I "inherited" when she was 10, didnt even bother going to school after the age of 14, she got a few dead end jobs, went on the dole, got herself into debt (she was a flippin' worry), but eventually got herself a job as a "teagirl" office junior in an oil company. 5 years on - she's earning an absolute fortune, very high up in the company, owns three properties, horses, travels the world and cant speak any other languages - nor can she be bothered to learn! Not bad for 28! We love each other to bits, but she'll often tease me about all the fuss I made to her about getting a good education and how she needed her GCSEs/qualifications etc...

Sometimes its not about results, its about experience , common sense and "get up and go"

Jo xxx


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## casaloco

jojo said:


> Sometimes its not about results, its about experience , common sense and "get up and go"
> 
> Jo xxx


true very true, chris was bullied out of school before exams. but he is a savvy young man, hard worker and has been taking over more and more of my business. and he's better at it than I.


----------



## xabiaxica

jojo said:


> But what about those dreadful verb endings AAAAAAAGGGGGGGHHHHH Thats was my downfall. ER, IR, AR and the irregulars. When I talk I usually try to kinda blend them in so no-one knows what ending I used, but in an exam?????????
> 
> Jo xxxx


that's the easy bit - & most are regular anyway, so when you've cracked that you can say anything!!

& once you have the pattern in the present tense, the other tenses come much more easily

also, in the exam there is so little actual writing in spanish that you barely need to think about it - & even then there is an example to help you

the oral exam is all pre-prepared - both your talk & the questions that you are going be asked - so you can just practice - like learning lines


----------



## casaloco

Off hand question. does anyone know how much it costs for a (spanish resident) student to go to a Spanish University??


----------



## xabiaxica

casaloco said:


> Off hand question. does anyone know how much it costs for a (spanish resident) student to go to a Spanish University??


not exactly sure - but afaik much less than the UK


----------



## jojo

casaloco said:


> Off hand question. does anyone know how much it costs for a (spanish resident) student to go to a Spanish University??



I dont know, but for Spanish nationals its probably cheaper than expats or foreigners??? I think when I looked, it worked out at about 4000€ a term excluding living costs????? But I may have not understood what I was reading????????

Jo xxx


----------



## fourgotospain

English GCSE is NOTHING like Spanish GCSE - the spanish is testing as a foreign language; knowledge to make yourself understood, requiring only basic tenses, vocab etc. English Language GCSE is testing your knowledge in your mother tongue; full comprehension, detailed tenses, knowledge of language terms, spelling, grammar etc. You can't compare the two like for like. Incidentally in Spanish PRIMARY school, english is taught as a mother tongue - it's NOT 'the train to barcelona departs form platform..........'

Don't get me wrong - I'm in favour of international schools as a temporary education solution, i.e. if you will only be here for a for a short time, or you move with older children - when I was a child the alternative was english boarding school. However there are teenagers/twenty-somethings here in this town who have a real identity crisis - born here or brought as toddlers, they regard themselves as spanish/english, but can't afford to stay in Spain with no language, and have no base or background in the UK either.


----------



## casaloco

fourgotospain said:


> However there are teenagers/twenty-somethings here in this town who have a real identity crisis - born here or brought as toddlers, they regard themselves as spanish/english, but can't afford to stay in Spain with no language, and have no base or background in the UK either.


are you refering to kids born/brought up in spain that attend english international schools?


----------



## jojo

fourgotospain said:


> English GCSE is NOTHING like Spanish GCSE - the spanish is testing as a foreign language; knowledge to make yourself understood, requiring only basic tenses, vocab etc. English Language GCSE is testing your knowledge in your mother tongue; full comprehension, detailed tenses, knowledge of language terms, spelling, grammar etc. You can't compare the two like for like. Incidentally in Spanish PRIMARY school, english is taught as a mother tongue - it's NOT 'the train to barcelona departs form platform..........'
> 
> Don't get me wrong - I'm in favour of international schools as a temporary education solution, i.e. if you will only be here for a for a short time, or you move with older children - when I was a child the alternative was english boarding school. However there are teenagers/twenty-somethings here in this town who have a real identity crisis - born here or brought as toddlers, they regard themselves as spanish/english, but can't afford to stay in Spain with no language, and have no base or background in the UK either.


True, but one assumes that because kids live in Spain that they must be able to pass the Spanish GCSE - it aint the same as the language they learn "on the street" My kids are both able to "caht" to their friends, but sadly, I dont think we'll be seeing A*s from their Spanish exams lol!

As for teenage/twenty somethings - we have alot of those too - I may be wrong and speaking out of turn, but I sometimes think (certainly for a fair few) that their problems are something to do with their parents moving to Spain without thinking too much about them and more about cheap booze and easier lifestyle. I have to say that at one of the state schools that Ruby attended, there we several British kids there who didnt come to school for days on end cos their parents were too drunk in the mornings (from the night before) to get them there!? 


Jo xxx


----------



## xabiaxica

casaloco said:


> are you refering to kids born/brought up in spain that attend english international schools?


that's what I understood her to mean, and she's right


kids that come here too old to enter the Spanish system have no choice


but some come here as toddlers - certainly young enough for Spanish school - yet they go to English school & don't learn enough Spanish to go on to further education here, or enter the workplace so return to the UK - often without their parents

they grew up in Spain - which is different to growing up in the UK, so maybe don't quite 'fit' when they do go back to the UK


but they didn't quite grow up in Spain - they grew up with UK TV as often as not, they grew up always speaking/reading english - often only eating english food - yes really - often the only contact they have with spanish people is out shopping - of course there are some spanish kids in the international schools now, but even 5 years ago there were very few

anthey don't speak much Spanish, they aren't really able to mix with the Spanish either - so don't quite 'fit' here, either


----------



## jojo

xabiachica said:


> that's what I understood her to mean, and she's right
> 
> 
> kids that come here too old to enter the Spanish system have no choice
> 
> 
> but some come here as toddlers - certainly young enough for Spanish school - yet they go to English school & don't learn enough Spanish to go on to further education here, or enter the workplace so return to the UK - often without their parents
> 
> they grew up in Spain - which is different to growing up in the UK, so maybe don't quite 'fit' when they do go back to the UK
> 
> 
> but they didn't quite grow up in Spain - they grew up with UK TV as often as not, they grew up always speaking/reading english - often only eating english food - yes really - often the only contact they have with spanish people is out shopping - of course there are some spanish kids in the international schools now, but even 5 years ago there were very few
> 
> anthey don't speak much Spanish, they aren't really able to mix with the Spanish either - so don't quite 'fit' here, either



I understood her to mean those who come over as toddlers and go to spanish school and become "Spanish" totally fluent! But they are still British, with British parents. There are lots of those I know around here and they dont seem to fit in here, they just want to drink, party and "hang out" They havent anything to go back to the uk for as they have no friends or qualifications there

Jo xxx


----------



## xabiaxica

jojo said:


> True, but one assumes that because kids live in Spain that they must be able to pass the Spanish GCSE - it aint the same as the language they learn "on the street" My kids are both able to "caht" to their friends, but sadly, I dont think we'll be seeing A*s from their Spanish exams lol!
> 
> As for teenage/twenty somethings - we have alot of those too - I may be wrong and speaking out of turn, but I sometimes think (certainly for a fair few) that their problems are something to do with their parents moving to Spain without thinking too much about them and more about cheap booze and easier lifestyle. I have to say that at one of the state schools that Ruby attended, there we several British kids there who didnt come to school for days on end cos their parents were too drunk in the mornings (from the night before) to get them there!?
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


I'll send you a copy of a GCSE Spanish exam if you like - you'll be amazed at how much you will be able to do - let alone your kids

and you're right about SOME teens & their families - I used to walk a family of kids in every morning cos their parents were never awake to get them there (certainly too hungover & often still drunk) - no idea how the 3 year old got herself ready - I guess big sis (age 7) must have done it


----------



## xabiaxica

jojo said:


> I understood her to mean those who come over as* toddlers and go to spanish school and become "Spanish" totally fluent*! But they are still British, with British parents. There are lots of those I know around here and they dont seem to fit in here, they just want to drink, party and "hang out" They havent anything to go back to the uk for as they have no friends or qualifications there
> 
> Jo xxx


they'd speak enough spanish to go on to further education here or enter the workplace on at least an equal footing with a spanish kid, surely? (if in fact there were any jobs - but that's another thread)

so wouldn't have to return to the UK?


the spanish bachillerato is accepted by UK unis, and the 'graduado' by 6th form colleges, if they DO want to


----------



## jojo

xabiachica said:


> they'd speak enough spanish to go on to further education here or enter the workplace on at least an equal footing with a spanish kid, surely? (if in fact there were any jobs - but that's another thread)
> 
> so wouldn't have to return to the UK?
> 
> 
> the spanish bachillerato is accepted by UK unis, and the 'graduado' by 6th form colleges, if they DO want to


Yes, but as I pointed out in my post, alot of expats kids dont get a lot of parental support and therefore didnt really get into the idea of going to school regularly - is it just the El Grande area where its like that !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! eeeeeeeekkkkk I'm going lololol

Jo xxx


----------



## xabiaxica

jojo said:


> Yes, but as I pointed out in my post, alot of expats kids dont get a lot of parental support and therefore didnt really get into the idea of going to school regularly - is it just the El Grande area where its like that !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! eeeeeeeekkkkk I'm going lololol
> 
> Jo xxx


yeah - true

but that might well have happened in the UK - but I see your point

even though I don't think that's what FTGS was saying


----------



## jojo

xabiachica said:


> yeah - true
> 
> but that might well have happened in the UK - but I see your point
> 
> even though I don't think that's what FTGS was saying


That said, I think that children who start International school from a young age, do learn Spanish well enough to go on to further education. In the infants and primary, they're alot more language orientated. What happens is that Spanish send their young children to the Infants and primary so that they learn English and then may move them back to Spanish schools for secondary, but as a by-product, alot of the younger British kids learn Spanish from their little friends  and from the bilingualism that has to go on in the classroom

Jo xxx


----------



## xabiaxica

jojo said:


> That said, I think that children who start International school from a young age, do learn Spanish well enough to go on to further education. In the infants and primary, they're alot more language orientated. What happens is that Spanish send their young children to the Infants and primary so that they learn English and then may move them back to Spanish schools for secondary, but as a by-product, alot of the younger British kids learn Spanish from their little friends  and from the bilingualism that has to go on in the classroom
> 
> Jo xxx


yes now they do - so that bodes well for the future:clap2:

but even going back 5 or so years there weren't many spanish kids in the international primary (or secondary) schools around here, so there aren't that many Spanish kids in the secondary schools (proportionally) right now, so the English kids haven't really mixed much with Spanish kids or learned the language

and some of those who will be sitting the exams next month are going to struggle to scrape a pass


----------



## Sonrisa

jojo said:


> I dont know, but for Spanish nationals its probably cheaper than expats or foreigners??? I think when I looked, it worked out at about 4000€ a term excluding living costs????? But I may have not understood what I was reading????????
> 
> Jo xxx


I think that information is wrong. There are two type of universities in Spain, public and private. 
PUblic is nearly free (althought not so free as there are registration and material and other hidden costs to be aware of!, can be as much as 800 euros yearly I believe). To enter, back in the day, one had to sit for Selectividad, and depending on your grades you could then had the choice (or lack thereof) of university and degree. 
The main problem with this universities is that the teachers are basically "funcionarios". says it all . Also too much theory, too little practice. Doesnt really prepare one for the big bad world. The bests IMO (arguably) are Complutense, Autonoma, Politecnica, Salamanca and Santiago de Compostela

THen there are the private universities, reputation and costs varies. Some can be very expensive> To be honest I don't know much about private universities, so I can give first hand opinion.


----------



## casaloco

ok to throw another spanner in the works. might be a thought for Jo, most of the UK and US universities run a huge amount of there A level and Degree courses now online.
My friends girl who left school at 15 got both her english and double Maths GCSE by doing it online and attending an exam at a centre.


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## andmac

dinnow said:


> They may be brilliant mathematicians but rubbish at language. It is a different part of the brain that relies on having a good ear as opposed to a good intellect. I am simply suggesting that you don't denigrate kids whose talents may well be greater in other fields.


That does imply that you do not require some degree of intellect to learn other languages? To learn you just need a fleshy appendage on the side of your head? Perhaps you meant logic rather than intellect?

I do agree on the different part of the brain side though. 

When I was in University, the science people tended not to study with us arty language student types!!


----------



## xabiaxica

dinnow said:


> Basically you are saying that today's kids are thick; the exams are a piece of cake; and in your day exams were really tough. Can't you see how patronising that is?
> I don't know whether Spanish (as a second language) is compulsory in international schools in Spain. In England, a modern foreign language is part of the core curriculum, but many fail to pass GCSE in a foreign language because they have no aptitude for language. They may be brilliant mathematicians but rubbish at language. It is a different part of the brain that relies on having a good ear as opposed to a good intellect. I am simply suggesting that you don't denigrate kids whose talents may well be greater in other fields.
> And instead of the simplistic mantra of "they're in Spain so they should learn Spanish" try to see the bigger picture that they are here not because they chose to be but because their parents had their own agenda that in many cases has little to do with what is in the best interests of the children.


unfortunately passing gcses has little to do with intellect nowadays & everything to do with learning how to pass an exam


& no, I'm not saying that someone who can't learn spanish is thick - or that today's kids are in general - simply that it is a wasted opportunity to not learn the language of the country in which they live - it would be an absolute walkover exam to pass if they are mixing with any spanish people at all

I've said it several times - exactly like that - so stop twisting my words & those of other posters just to get a rise out of us!


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## Caz.I

jojo said:


> I dont know, but for Spanish nationals its probably cheaper than expats or foreigners??? I think when I looked, it worked out at about 4000€ a term excluding living costs????? But I may have not understood what I was reading????????
> 
> Jo xxx


I think that sounds about right, but I am sure Sonrisa would know. I teach Spanish parents and we are always discussing education. They all seem to think the UK system sounded better, for some reason. I think they said the tuition fees were about 12,000 euros per year. They also said that students did not have to complete their degree course within three or four years but could spend years completeing their degree if they failed their exams! Not sure how that works though.


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## Caz.I

Oh, she got there already lol...


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## Pesky Wesky

Well, I've found some info, but I don't understand it...
From the Universidad Autónomo, Madrid (where my daughter will probably end up going.)

Precio por crédito en euros 2010/11 (Price per credit in euros 2010/11)
Estudios de grado (degree courses)
Biología
Grado de experimentalidad (???) 2
1ª Matrícula (1st register) 20,26€
2ª Matrícula (2nd register 23,33€

What on earth does all that mean???

Here's the link Universidad Autónoma de Madrid - Precios por crédito en euros curso 2010/2011


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## Sonrisa

blah blah duplicate


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## Sonrisa

No idea. My brother did "derecho" in la Autonoma too! and after six long hard years got his degree. I am a university (complutense) drop out, gave up after two years , and went on to study something else. 
All I know is that -teaching was bad. .-Fees were next to nothing. - You could pass exams by "enchufe" (my brother got to pass one year because my grandfather was friends with someone important, and it took a phone call to change his grade)


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## Pesky Wesky

Sonrisa said:


> No idea. My brother did "derecho" in la Autonoma too! and after six long hard years got his degree. I am a university (complutense) drop out, gave up after two years , and went on to study something else.
> All I know is that -teaching was bad. .-Fees were next to nothing. - You could pass exams by "enchufe" (my brother got to pass one year because my grandfather was friends with someone important, and it took a phone call to change his grade)


But do you know how many credits you usually do on a course, in a term, in a year??

PS that's terrible about your grandfather's connections being able to change your brothers's grades. It's what you always hear about Spain, but I thought - hoped that it had more or less died out now in this kind of sense. For jobs it certainly hasn't, but for jobs, I think it's even sensible to take someone on that's given a personal recommendation if they have the right qualifications and experience of course.


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## fourgotospain

> Originally Posted by casaloco
> are you refering to kids born/brought up in spain that attend english international schools?
> 
> that's what I understood her to mean, and she's right
> 
> 
> kids that come here too old to enter the Spanish system have no choice
> 
> 
> but some come here as toddlers - certainly young enough for Spanish school - yet they go to English school & don't learn enough Spanish to go on to further education here, or enter the workplace so return to the UK - often without their parents
> 
> they grew up in Spain - which is different to growing up in the UK, so maybe don't quite 'fit' when they do go back to the UK
> 
> 
> but they didn't quite grow up in Spain - they grew up with UK TV as often as not, they grew up always speaking/reading english - often only eating english food - yes really - often the only contact they have with spanish people is out shopping - of course there are some spanish kids in the international schools now, but even 5 years ago there were very few
> 
> anthey don't speak much Spanish, they aren't really able to mix with the Spanish either - so don't quite 'fit' here, either


That's EXACTLY what I mean! I have actually heard a parent say 'it's a great place to raise them, but no future for them after that' when it's the parents lack of thought (your right there Jo) that's put the child in that position! I know SO many children who have lived here since they were 4,5,6 and younger and yet will have no option but to return to the Uk at 18, as they have attended international school all those years. Now I moved 200 miles to go to Uni, but that was then, finances etc will mean that attending Uni from 'home' will become more the norm. 

When we arrived my girls spoke more spanish in the 3 months they were tutored before starting spanish primary here than a friend of their's has picked up in 4 YEARS!


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## Sonrisa

Pesky Wesky said:


> But do you know how many credits you usually do on a course, in a term, in a year??
> 
> PS that's terrible about your grandfather's connections being able to change your brothers's grades. It's what you always hear about Spain, but I thought - hoped that it had more or less died out now in this kind of sense. For jobs it certainly hasn't, but for jobs, I think it's even sensible to take someone on that's given a personal recommendation if they have the right qualifications and experience of course.


I don't know what is credits? (asignaturas?) If so, I think it was eight or ten per years, some you can choose and how many.

IThat was at least ten years ago...Hopefully, maybe, it might have changed now. It was certainly good for my brother but shows just how poor and unfair the system was back then. Funcionarios, says all. 

Nevertheless AUtonoma is a good University and it has the reputation factor amongst the Spanish and I'd like to think that in the world too.


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## Sonrisa

Ah! Creditos. Silly me...

http://www.uam.es/servicios/adminis...mica/planes_estudio0708/ciencias/biologia.pdf

Found this, its a little outdated, but it might help


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## Guest

casaloco said:


> ok to throw another spanner in the works. might be a thought for Jo, most of the UK and US universities run a huge amount of there A level and Degree courses now online.
> My friends girl who left school at 15 got both her english and double Maths GCSE by doing it online and attending an exam at a centre.


Careful with this - schooling is legally required until students are 16. This could get into the "home school" debate.


----------



## Guest

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well, I've found some info, but I don't understand it...
> From the Universidad Autónomo, Madrid (where my daughter will probably end up going.)
> 
> Precio por crédito en euros 2010/11 (Price per credit in euros 2010/11)
> Estudios de grado (degree courses)
> Biología
> Grado de experimentalidad (???) 2
> 1ª Matrícula (1st register) 20,26€
> 2ª Matrícula (2nd register 23,33€
> 
> What on earth does all that mean???
> 
> Here's the link Universidad Autónoma de Madrid - Precios por crédito en euros curso 2010/2011


Look at the number of credits she will need to take yearly. If I remember properly, an undergrad degree is 60 credits. So, if you register early (1 matricula) you get to pay the nice rate of 1215.60 euros/year. 

I'm looking at a Master's Degree in a private University here in Bilbao (Deusto) and it'll work out to be nearly 6,000 euros. No difference for being Spanish vs. Foreign in this case.


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## Pesky Wesky

Thanks Sonrisa and halydia for the Uni information


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## casaloco

halydia said:


> Careful with this - schooling is legally required until students are 16. This could get into the "home school" debate.


No i meant A'levels and Degrees for when they are over the age of 16.


(just an example of Jen doing her GCSE online!!)


----------



## xabiaxica

halydia said:


> Look at the number of credits she will need to take yearly. If I remember properly, an undergrad degree is 60 credits. So, if you register early (1 matricula) you get to pay the nice rate of 1215.60 euros/year.
> 
> I'm looking at a Master's Degree in a private University here in Bilbao (Deusto) and it'll work out to be nearly 6,000 euros. No difference for being Spanish vs. Foreign in this case.


so a degree at a public uni costs roughly the same as a degree cost in the UK in the 80s!!

and a private one roughly the same as in the UK now

Cost of a degree 'has tripled in 20 years' - Telegraph

I know it's about the UK, but interesting for comaprison


----------



## Sonrisa

> IThat was at least ten years ago...


LOl, I just reread that...More like 16 or so years ago! See that's what happens when I write and cook dinner at the same time, I get all mixt up... Can't multitask. 

About the costs that's the good thing about the public universities in Spain, they are afordable!
But chances are that I will send my children to french universities.


----------



## Guest

xabiachica said:


> so a degree at a public uni costs roughly the same as a degree cost in the UK in the 80s!!
> 
> and a private one roughly the same as in the UK now
> 
> Cost of a degree 'has tripled in 20 years' - Telegraph
> 
> I know it's about the UK, but interesting for comaprison


I cannot stress enough that Canada is an AMAZING option for many students. I'm from the US but went to a small liberal arts uni in New Brunswick. With the exchange rate and the fact that international student tuition was just $12,000/CAD a year, it worked out to be a lot cheaper than in the US.

So long as your kids are up for an adventure, I urge you all to encourage them to look at Canadian schools. And heck the "discount" you would get with the still strong pound/euro over the Canadian dollar makes it an even more attractive option.


----------



## xabiaxica

halydia said:


> Careful with this - schooling is legally required until students are 16. This could get into the "home school" debate.


let's not.......................


please


----------



## xabiaxica

halydia said:


> I cannot stress enough that Canada is an AMAZING option for many students. I'm from the US but went to a small liberal arts uni in New Brunswick. With the exchange rate and the fact that international student tuition was just $12,000/CAD a year, it worked out to be a lot cheaper than in the US.
> 
> So long as your kids are up for an adventure, I urge you all to encourage them to look at Canadian schools. And heck the "discount" you would get with the still strong pound/euro over the Canadian dollar makes it an even more attractive option.


hmmm

maybe I'll look at that for dd1 - she fancies the US for uni but I don't fancy the cost


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## jojo

One of the regular posters on here (altho not at the moment) has three children aged 12ish, 14 and 18 and they've been in Spain for 18 months. Her eldest came here, completed his A levels and is now returning to the UK to university. She expects that the other two will do the same. Nowt wrong with that is there???? They leave home anyway when they go to Uni as a rule.

My son wants to go back to the UK to do his A-levels cos there is a course he wants to do as well, then onto Uni maybe. Fine, altho my daughter wants to go back if he does - not fine, cos I dont want to and if everyone is back in the UK, I cant really justify staying here on my won! 

Jo xxx


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## Guest

xabiachica said:


> hmmm
> 
> maybe I'll look at that for dd1 - she fancies the US for uni but I don't fancy the cost


If she or you are ever interested, send me a PM and I can get you more information.


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## Caz.I

xabiachica said:


> hmmm
> 
> maybe I'll look at that for dd1 - she fancies the US for uni but I don't fancy the cost


In order to attract international students, some US unis award scholarships which cover the tuition fees though.


----------



## xabiaxica

jojo said:


> One of the regular posters on here (altho not at the moment) has three children aged 12ish, 14 and 18 and they've been in Spain for 18 months. Her eldest came here, completed his A levels and is now returning to the UK to university. She expects that the other two will do the same. Nowt wrong with that is there???? They leave home anyway when they go to Uni as a rule.
> 
> My son wants to go back to the UK to do his A-levels cos there is a course he wants to do as well, then onto Uni maybe. Fine, altho my daughter wants to go back if he does - not fine, cos I dont want to and if everyone is back in the UK, I cant really justify staying here on my won!
> 
> Jo xxx


no there isn't - but they came here at a much older age & there never was going to be a choice, realistically

many do return - but their parents don't - so well done you for wanting to support your kids by going back with them, if that's what you end up doing - sad for you though, but you can always come back

like I say , my dd1 fancies the US for uni - but her younger suster will still be here so if that happens she'll be alone - but she has itchy feet like we do, so chances are she would have wanted to do it even if we had stayed in the UK, and we wouldn't have been moving there with her in that instance, either!

the difference is, if she had gone to international school all the way through, she wouldn't have really had the option of uni in spain, (except as a foreign student, and I don't know if a long term resident in Spain would be considered foreign:confused2,- which she does


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## fourgotospain

> Nowt wrong with that is there????


Not at all, for all the reasons xab said above PLUS they all must have very clear memories of life in the UK and a friend and family support network. Yes, traditionally english kids go away to Uni, but are often close enough for a weekend trip home for laundry and roast dinner!

A lifetime or so ago my OH and I lived in New Zealand for a while. His aunt lived about 3 hours drive away and it was lovely to be 'looked after' every now and then!

Jo, the tales of your daughter crack me up!


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## xabiaxica

fourgotospain said:


> Not at all, for all the reasons xab said above PLUS they all must have very clear memories of life in the UK and a friend and family support network. Yes, traditionally english kids go away to Uni, but are often close enough for a weekend trip home for laundry and roast dinner!
> 
> A lifetime or so ago my OH and I lived in New Zealand for a while. His aunt lived about 3 hours drive away and it was lovely to be 'looked after' every now and then!
> 
> *Jo, the tales of your daughter crack me up*!


and she's making Jo crack up but in a different way


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## jojo

Yes, my daughter cracks me up too  !!!! She's certainly a character. What irritates me about her at the moment is that I constantly nag her to do homework, study, revision etc and she constantly tells me she doesnt need to AND she's constantly getting good grades!!!


I guess maybe some of feel differently cos we have husbands who've commuted and somehow that makes you realise that the UK isnt that far away or expensive to get to or from. Without doubt its infinitely cheaper and quicker to get to Malaga from our UK house than it is to get from Manchester to our UK house. My older daughters boyfriend has family there and he often makes that comment

Jo xxx


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## andmac

In addition to setting up an education company, we have just returned from registering our 2 year old with the local private school.

We looked at the state one here and thought it was lacking technology i.e. no digital language learning, still done on cassettes, no white boards for classrooms and so on.

The private one looks out of this world and is not ridiculously expensive. It has state of the art equipment and was really easy to register.

Turned up with NIE, empadronamiento, medical card and vaccination record.

The BIG difference for me, with this school is that class sizes are tiny (8-12) and they are taught to the same level in Castellano, Valenciano and English, with an after school option of French (yes please).

All in all a productive, happy morning (may call for a glass or three of cava this evening!).


----------



## xabiaxica

andmac said:


> In addition to setting up an education company, we have just returned from registering our 2 year old with the local private school.
> 
> We looked at the state one here and thought it was lacking technology i.e. no digital language learning, still done on cassettes, no white boards for classrooms and so on.
> 
> The private one looks out of this world and is not ridiculously expensive. It has state of the art equipment and was really easy to register.
> 
> Turned up with NIE, empadronamiento, medical card and vaccination record.
> 
> The BIG difference for me, with this school is that class sizes are tiny (8-12) and they are taught to the same level in Castellano, Valenciano and English, with an after school option of French (yes please).
> 
> All in all a productive, happy morning (may call for a glass or three of cava this evening!).


it does vary

obviously class sizes are larger in state school - but only up to about 20 in my dd's primary

they have great facilities there too - including the electronic whiteboards


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## andmac

xabiachica said:


> it does vary
> 
> obviously class sizes are larger in state school - but only up to about 20 in my dd's primary
> 
> they have great facilities there too - including the electronic whiteboards


Hi,

Yes it does vary, we have looked at other schools in other areas, but where we live, we had the choice of one! And the private one is actually nearer us, we can see it along the bay from the kitchen window!


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## awarbel

*Teacher dress?*

I am currently a teacher at a public secondary school in the US, where teacher dress is pretty casual. I will be moving to Andalusia in the fall to teach for a year. What is the typical dresscode for a public school teacher in Spain? Basically I want to know if I'm going to have to blow some $ on a new wardrobe!

Thanks,
Adam



macdonner said:


> Don't know if you will need to move this from the sticky but I was wondering about school uniforms (did a forum search and other threads are closed and didn't really answer my question). I really wanted to know if a primary school in Spain has the same school uniform as is in the UK? As in polo shirt/shirt, grey/black skirt or black/grey trousers? We are planning to move in August next year and so I am thinking that I could save some cash (so I have enough to buy pencils, books and stuff !) if I bought a school uniform as if my daughter was going to school in the UK and then be able to use it for school when we move to Spain? TIA.


----------



## xabiaxica

awarbel said:


> I am currently a teacher at a public secondary school in the US, where teacher dress is pretty casual. I will be moving to Andalusia in the fall to teach for a year. What is the typical dresscode for a public school teacher in Spain? Basically I want to know if I'm going to have to blow some $ on a new wardrobe!
> 
> Thanks,
> Adam


I'm not in Andalusía, but I have daughters in both primary & secondary here

the teachers in both schools wear jeans & t-shirts - in the secondary school you are hard pressed to tell the students apart from the teachers!!


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## awarbel

*Wow!*

Now that is casual! My definition of casual was dress pants and a dress shirt, no tie, no jacket. I think I can deal with jeans and a t-shirt. 

Thanks for the info!


xabiachica said:


> I'm not in Andalusía, but I have daughters in both primary & secondary here
> 
> the teachers in both schools wear jeans & t-shirts - in the secondary school you are hard pressed to tell the students apart from the teachers!!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

xabiachica said:


> I'm not in Andalusía, but I have daughters in both primary & secondary here
> 
> the teachers in both schools wear jeans & t-shirts - in the secondary school you are hard pressed to tell the students apart from the teachers!!


I'd go along with that.
My husband is a teacher in a state school, and whilst he doesn't go to work in jeans, he does wear informal stuff and only wears a jacket and smart trousers to weddings and funerals.


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## Caz.I

I am in Andalusia and it is definitely casual here but haven't seen anyone that casual in my son's primary school (a public school). Most of the teachers seem to go for what we'd call smart-casual (ie. men - polo shirt, casual trousers but not jeans). I suppose it may depend on the area and the school though? But I wouldnt worry about investing in a new wardrobe though!


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## awarbel

Good to hear because money will be tight!



Caz.I said:


> I am in Andalusia and it is definitely casual here but haven't seen anyone that casual in my son's primary school (a public school). Most of the teachers seem to go for what we'd call smart-casual (ie. men - polo shirt, casual trousers but not jeans). I suppose it may depend on the area and the school though? But I wouldnt worry about investing in a new wardrobe though!


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## tam123

*How old is too old to start Spanish state school?*

My daughter is 10 and I am hoping to place her in a Spanish state school (as opposed to an International or fee paying school) when I move over later this year to teach English. She has had Spanish lessons for 2 years but is by no means fluent. Has anyone heard of other children around this age adapting well or do you think it will be a terrible struggle for her? Thanks


----------



## xabiaxica

tam123 said:


> My daughter is 10 and I am hoping to place her in a Spanish state school (as opposed to an International or fee paying school) when I move over later this year to teach English. She has had Spanish lessons for 2 years but is by no means fluent. Has anyone heard of other children around this age adapting well or do you think it will be a terrible struggle for her? Thanks


Hi & welcome

many if not most 10 year olds will adapt well in Spanish school - my elder daugter was a few weeks short of 9 when she started

I know of 11 & 12 year olds who have done well, and also know kids who went into Spanish school at age 7 who have never settled

your daughter has a head start on most in that she already knows some Spanish - I doubt she'd struggle for long, although there's not denying that it will be hard for a while

I'm moving this to the education 'sticky' - have a good read of it!


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## lynn

tam123 said:


> My daughter is 10 and I am hoping to place her in a Spanish state school (as opposed to an International or fee paying school) when I move over later this year to teach English. She has had Spanish lessons for 2 years but is by no means fluent. Has anyone heard of other children around this age adapting well or do you think it will be a terrible struggle for her? Thanks


As Xabiachica has said, it is probable that your daughter will manage in a Spanish state school, but not definite... My son was 10 years old when we moved here and there was NO WAY he would have coped with it! However, he had two older siblings who were going to International School. Bear in mind, it is common for Spanish state schools to put a child down a year to give them time to learn the language...

I would also add that if you do not intend to stay living in Spain, it may well be an idea to keep your child in the British school curriculum.


----------



## xabiaxica

lynn said:


> As Xabiachica has said, it is probable that your daughter will manage in a Spanish state school, but not definite... My son was 10 years old when we moved here and there was NO WAY he would have coped with it! However, he had two older siblings who were going to International School. Bear in mind, it is common for Spanish state schools to put a child down a year to give them time to learn the language...
> 
> I would also add that if you do not intend to stay living in Spain, it may well be an idea to keep your child in the British school curriculum.


yes, that does happen, although I'm not sure if I'd say it was automatic or even common 

it can be very helpful though,as you say, to help the kids get up to speed with the language

a lot of parents think their kids have been held back a year when they in fact haven't - it's just worked out differently here

for instance - in the UK my younger dd would be in 1st year of secondary - here, she is in last year of primary - partly because they do an extra year in primary here anyway (secondary has only 4 years) - & also because of when her birthday is

when we first came here there were some kids in her class (in internatonal school - they used the UK system) who were born between sept-dec 1998 - she was born july 1999

so under the UK system they were age appropriate to be in the same class/year

they all moved to spanish state school at about the same time - the kids born in 1998 were put in the year above my dd - because in the spanish system it is worked out on the year they were born

this meant that my dd was age appropriate for last year of infants & her friends were age appropriate for first year of primary - but it didn't mean my dd had been held back a year


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## jojo

My daughter was 11 when we came here. She started off in International but begged to go to State. So after a couple of months we put her in State! she hated it (she was bullied), so after 6 months we put her into the secondary level state school. she liked it better, BUT, she was by now 12 and at "that" age. She flatly refused to speak spanish, she refused to do any work, no homework and was thoroughly belligerent and awkward. We were called into the school by the teachers quite often because she wouldnt conform. After a year, we then found she was playing truant and it was getting too hard to keep tabs on her. So we relented and put her back into an International school. She's 14 now and has been there for nearly a year and loves it! She's doing really well and is a different child (well she's still a belligerent little madam, but teenage girls...??) She's settled, happy, bright and has lots of multinational friends. She still refuses to speak Spanish tho!?

Anyway, I think for your daughter it would make sense to try it! Give state school six months - a year (dont falter at the first hurdle). If it really doesnt pan out then try international, she wont lose much education at this age - mine didnt surprisingly

Jo xxxx


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## tam123

Thank you so much for all the replies - they certainly make me feel less apprehensive (although I have no doubt it will be a tough year or two). We intend to stay in Spain (we have family who will live an hour an a half away from us). Luckily my daughter is very very keen to go to Spanish state school - and desperate to learn more Spanish (although nothing will prepare her for the reality of it - I'm sure). I think I'm finding it a bit daunting knowing we'll be managing alone as I'll be on my own with her (as we are in the U.K. But not something I've hear of often in Spain?). Xxx


----------



## Pesky Wesky

tam123 said:


> Thank you so much for all the replies - they certainly make me feel less apprehensive (although I have no doubt it will be a tough year or two). We intend to stay in Spain (we have family who will live an hour an a half away from us). Luckily my daughter is very very keen to go to Spanish state school - and desperate to learn more Spanish (although nothing will prepare her for the reality of it - I'm sure). I think I'm finding it a bit daunting knowing we'll be managing alone as I'll be on my own with her (as we are in the U.K. But not something I've hear of often in Spain?). Xxx


What, being a one parent family?

If that's what you mean I can assure you you won't be on your own. However it's true that most, but not all, will have some other family member around.


----------



## tam123

Yes - being a one parent family! 

That's good to hear!!  My brother is married to a Spanish woman and they all seem VERY family orientated (which is nice - they're very welcoming etc.). I do get the impression though, that my situation is not very common in Spain - though given what you've said; it could just be that it's not common in that particular family! 


----------



## Pesky Wesky

tam123 said:


> Yes - being a one parent family!
> 
> That's good to hear!!  My brother is married to a Spanish woman and they all seem VERY family orientated (which is nice - they're very welcoming etc.). I do get the impression though, that my situation is not very common in Spain - though given what you've said; it could just be that it's not common in that particular family! 


You should talk to Caz I who can give you a real life low down!!
Expat Forum For Expats, For Moving Overseas And For Jobs Abroad - View Profile: Caz.I

I'm sure she's not going to tell you it's a bed of roses, but I don't think she'll tell you she feels out of place. One more post and you can send her a private message, although I think it would a great thread - very useful for people in that situation. Might be a bit personal though...


----------



## fourgotospain

My daughter was nearly 10 when she started and has settled well, in fact fine. She is now 'playground' fluent and pretty much classroom fluent as well in the two languages taught where we live. As she is a May baby she is much better positioned in the spanish system IMHO as she is right in the middle age wise compared to one of the youngest in the UK. It suits a 10 year old to start in primary here as well, as they effectively stay until 12 - my daughter is just 11 and still in Yr5 - she has another whole year at primary left, which I love - anything to prolong childhood a bit! 
Keep up with the spanish tuition when you get here - we had a lady come to the house every day teaching them school stuff (where are the toilets/ I've dropped my pencil etc) and she came back last summer so they didn't 'lose' their language over the long summer break, and she'll be abck here this summer too. 
Lastly, I think it depends on your school too - my girls are at the same school as xabiachica and we have said before that it has a very welcoming, inclusive attitude, which was fabulous right from the start. Anyway must dash and take the little darlings back after their lunch+swim break, hope this helps xxxx


----------



## xabiaxica

fourgotospain said:


> My daughter was nearly 10 when she started and has settled well, in fact fine. She is now 'playground' fluent and pretty much classroom fluent as well in the two languages taught where we live. As she is a May baby she is much better positioned in the spanish system IMHO as she is right in the middle age wise compared to one of the youngest in the UK. It suits a 10 year old to start in primary here as well, as they effectively stay until 12 - my daughter is just 11 and still in Yr5 - she has another whole year at primary left, which I love - anything to prolong childhood a bit!
> Keep up with the spanish tuition when you get here - we had a lady come to the house every day teaching them school stuff (where are the toilets/ I've dropped my pencil etc) and she came back last summer so they didn't 'lose' their language over the long summer break, and she'll be abck here this summer too.
> Lastly, I think it depends on your school too - my girls are at the same school as xabiachica and we have said before that it has a very welcoming, inclusive attitude, which was fabulous right from the start. Anyway must dash and take the little darlings back after their lunch+swim break, hope this helps xxxx


it is a lovely school, isn't it?

my younger dd isn't yet 12 - she will be in July though and will be moving up to ESO in September....hmmm better organise the birthday party soon - before the hols

only 2 more long days left, then on wednesday they start 9-1 - so much easier 

and then my 2 both have 13 weeks off


actually I'm really looking forward to this summer:clap2:


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## djfwells

Everyone's exxperience can be, and often is different and it largely depends not only on the school itself and the capeabilities of the child, but whether they are likely to have to learn both a regional AND the national language. Personally, and in general terms, I would say that 10 years old is towards the upper age limit.


----------



## xabiaxica

djfwells said:


> Everyone's exxperience can be, and often is different and it largely depends not only on the school itself and the capeabilities of the child, but whether they are likely to have to learn both a regional AND the national language. Personally, and in general terms, I would say that 10 years old is towards the upper age limit.


I doubt many would disagree with you on that

this child has had a couple of years of spanish lessons though, so has a good to excellent chance of settling in


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## djfwells

xabiachica said:


> I doubt many would disagree with you on that
> 
> this child has had a couple of years of spanish lessons though, so has a good to excellent chance of settling in


Indeed - as long as the school will teach in Spanish as opposed to Catalan, or Valencian etc...


----------



## xabiaxica

djfwells said:


> Indeed - as long as the school will teach in Spanish as opposed to Catalan, or Valencian etc...


true - that is an issue for some

most british kids I know actually reckon valenciano was easier to pick up initially that castellano - & both my & fourgotospain's dds started at 9/10 years of age & are doing fine in both

a lot depends upon the child & the school, as you say

I think a huge amout also depends upon the attitude of the parents


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## djfwells

My (nearly) 4 year old has just finished her first year at a raving Valencian school. She can't pronounce her 'R's' properly in English yet, but you should hear her roll her Spanish 'Rrrrrrrr's'


----------



## lynn

djfwells said:


> My (nearly) 4 year old has just finished her first year at a raving Valencian school. She can't pronounce her 'R's' properly in English yet, but you should hear her roll her Spanish 'Rrrrrrrr's'


My 17 and 14 year olds can't pronounce their 'r's' !


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## Julie E

Hi,
Thankyou for sharing your experiences,ive read with interest and have learned alot

Can anyone tell me anything about Colegio Maravillas please?
Does anyone have children there?
Thankyou..


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Just so people can get an idea of timetables here...
My daugter is 17 and in 1º de Bachillerato. She had her last exam yesterday, 14th of June, and didn't go to the last few days of class, just going for exams. Officially school is open until the 24th I think, but they are done and only have to go and pick up their results on the last day. As next year they have the university entrance exams (Prueba de Aceso a la Universidad PAU) and a lot of preparation, pressure and hanging around for results they have their special end of school for ever trip this year. She's going to Greece which I think is a little excessive, but that was the option. The other secondary school is going to do part of the Camino de Santiago


----------



## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> Just so people can get an idea of timetables here...
> My daugter is 17 and in 1º de Bachillerato. She had her last exam yesterday, 14th of June, and didn't go to the last few days of class, just going for exams. Officially school is open until the 24th I think, but they are done and only have to go and pick up their results on the last day. As next year they have the university entrance exams (Prueba de Aceso a la Universidad PAU) and a lot of preparation, pressure and hanging around for results they have their special end of school for ever trip this year. She's going to Greece which I think is a little excessive, but that was the option. The other secondary school is going to do part of the Camino de Santiago


I 'think' mine officially finish about then too - not sure thuogh

dd2 in primary officially finishes next tuesday 21st - though they are having their end of year fiesta & graduation ceremony this friday & there won't actually be any lessons next week - it's her last year of primary

my dd in 3rd yr of ESO has her last day of _evaluación_ today - there are no classes tomorrow & they have their end of year day trip on friday - her class voted for Terra Mítica this year

she already had to hand in her options for next year - but she doesn't get her report I think til the 28th - she has to go in to collect it

I know there will be staff on duty at the instituto during the first week of July, cos we have to go in with dd2's options on the 4th


----------



## Pesky Wesky

xabiachica said:


> I know there will be staff on duty at the instituto during the first week of July, cos we have to go in with dd2's options on the 4th


Yes, that's what I don't have clear as we have little paperwork to do this year and at 17 she does it herself, but I think it's open until the end of July(?)


----------



## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yes, that's what I don't have clear as we have little paperwork to do this year and at 17 she does it herself, but I think it's open until the end of July(?)


exactly - but no classes

and then I know it opens again 1st week of sept for resits -although they don't actually start back til halfway through the month


it causes problems for some foreign kids (& maybe for spanish kids, too, if they go away for the whole summer)- as soon as classes are over they go abroad- either to absent parents, to the 'home' country for the summer - or in the case of one boy I know - for the 'holiday of a lifetime' with grandparents

in his case, he didn't know that he had failed the year, cos they didn't have his report before he went away - so didn't know he had to do resits - so wasn't back in time - so was held back a year


----------



## Caz.I

My son finishes infant school on Friday 24th June. It is his last year in infant school so he now officially "graduates" to Primary. I got his official "graduation photos" today complete with gown and cap lol! The ceremony is on the 23rd and this is the last whole day of school.  Friday 24th is the last day of term and they have a "fiesta de agua" in the canteen to finish things off - which mainly involves shooting each other with water pistols! School reports have to be collected on Monday 27th.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

xabiachica said:


> exactly - but no classes
> 
> and then I know it opens again 1st week of sept for resits -although they don't actually start back til halfway through the month
> 
> 
> it causes problems for some foreign kids (& maybe for spanish kids, too, if they go away for the whole summer)- as soon as classes are over they go abroad- either to absent parents, to the 'home' country for the summer - or in the case of one boy I know - for the 'holiday of a lifetime' with grandparents
> 
> in his case, he didn't know that he had failed the year, cos they didn't have his report before he went away - so didn't know he had to do resits - so wasn't back in time - so was held back a year


You don't fail the year on the last round of exams though, do you? He or his parents must have had an inkling that it was a possibility. Perhaps the holiday planning should have included being around to pick up the report before paying the last deposit on the beach holiday?? Life's hard sometimes


----------



## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> You don't fail the year on the last round of exams though, do you? He or his parents must have had an inkling that it was a possibility. Perhaps the holiday planning should have included being around to pick up the report before paying the last deposit on the beach holiday?? Life's hard sometimes


yes, of course they knew it was a possibility - even likelihood.........

there are sometimes surprises in the last report though

but I agree- they should really have planned to be back in time just in case - to be fair in this case the parents hadn't had anything to do with it - the grandparents had simply asked 'in passing' what the holiday dates were & booked a trip for the entire 3 months!!


----------



## LuLu89

Does anyone know what the schools are like in Estepona?


----------



## ozvic

*Is residency compulsory for (non-Spanish) children in Spain.......*

Hi all,

Quick question- due to some legal complexities, my daughter, who is Australian, may not have Spanish residency for a little while when we are first living in Spain- does this mean that she would not be able to attend daycare/childcare/playgroups etc...??? Or be registered with a doctor..? We would be looking for English speaking playgroups which may well be privately run and fee paying if that makes a difference...??? And are there International doctors who will treat you if you arent Spanish...? We are planning to be based in the Sotogrande area, the West of the Costa del Sol

Any advice gratefully receieved- thanks!


----------



## ozvic

halydia said:


> How old is she?
> 
> I'd imagine she'd never be denied emergency care but as for continuing care in the public system I believe that she - and you - would need to be registered with _NIEs_ and _empadronados_.


Thanks for the reply! She will be 2 years old....what about childcares/daycares/nursery schools etc..? Her paperwork is complicated, I will be registered as I am a UK citizen but she may take a while, she was adopted from China and this makes it less straightforward for us apparently!!!! Thanks again.


----------



## Guest

Ah, gotcha. Frustrating! 

At 2 years old she'll have no problems with mandatory schooling, which is what prompted me to ask her age. I don't know if there's public daycare for two year olds where you will be (there is where I am) but it would be worth asking about. I'm sorry I can't help more, I've never been in this situation. 

Best of luck!


----------



## thrax

We were told that our 15 month old boy would not need NIE or residency until he is 16 but I have no idea if that is actually correct. If anyone knows the definitive truth please tell!!


----------



## xabiaxica

to enter into the state school system a child _does_ need to be reigistered as resident & have a NIE number - private nurseries & so on are usually happy enough to take money from anyone, legally resident or not

English speaking establishments will be privately run - so that won't be a problem for ozvic

the same with private medical care - if you're paying, they'll treat you

I _think_ - but I'm not 100% certain - that if you are in the state healthcare system then she is covered as a dependent, as long as she is legally your dependent


----------



## baldilocks

ozvic said:


> Hi all,
> We would be looking for English speaking playgroups which may well be privately run and fee paying if that makes a difference...??? And are there International doctors who will treat you if you arent Spanish...?
> Any advice gratefully receieved- thanks!


Some of your questions are completely confusing.

Why an English speaking playgroup? 

Get her into Spanish as quickly as you can - she will help you! By all means speak to her in English at home but let her join with others about her age developing her Spanish, life will be all the easier for her that way as she will be bilingual. 

My wife was brought up by a Spanish-speaking father and an English-speaking mother and they then sent her to a totally French-speaking school. So the has been tri-lingual from the age of 5 and has plenty of employment opportunities either as a teacher, a translator or an interpreter in which she has her degrees and diplomas. 

As for doctors, you will find that most of the Spanish ones are excellent and if you are having language difficulties, there will be interpreters about. 

Let's face it , there are questions that YOU need to ask yourselves, if you don't want to learn Spanish or want your daughter to learn Spanish and don't want a Spanish doctor, why come to Spain?


----------



## xabiaxica

baldilocks said:


> Some of your questions are completely confusing.
> 
> Why an English speaking playgroup?
> 
> Get her into Spanish as quickly as you can - she will help you! By all means speak to her in English at home but let her join with others about her age developing her Spanish, life will be all the easier for her that way as she will be bilingual.
> 
> My wife was brought up by a Spanish-speaking father and an English-speaking mother and they then sent her to a totally French-speaking school. So the has been tri-lingual from the age of 5 and has plenty of employment opportunities either as a teacher, a translator or an interpreter in which she has her degrees and diplomas.
> 
> As for doctors, you will find that most of the Spanish ones are excellent and if you are having language difficulties, there will be interpreters about.
> 
> Let's face it , there are questions that YOU need to ask yourselves, if you don't want to learn Spanish or want your daughter to learn Spanish and don't want a Spanish doctor, why come to Spain?


each to their own really

I might agree with you - but when we first came here we weren't sure how long we'd be staying -and our girls were a little older so we _did_ put them into english-speaking school at first

in retrospect it was a waste of time & money - but if we had returned to either the US or the UK after the first year then I dare say I'd feel differently

for a 2 year old - I would probably try a spanish nursery even if we thought it might be a temporary move


----------



## xabiaxica

Alcalaina said:


> It really depends enormously where you are. We live in a small rural town with very few immigrants (or expats as some people like to call themselves) and we were made very welcome by the locals, some of whom are now good friends. They are scathing towards some of the Brits here who drink too much and don't learn Spanish, but they are still polite to their faces (they need their business).
> 
> As said above, family is everything here. Kids are treated really well, and are generally well behaved. Teenagers are not treated as pariahs, they are part of the community. There is virtually no violent crime and very little vandalism in my town. There is some petty theft and a growing drug problem, as everywhere, largely due to the appalling 45% unemployment rate amongst young people.
> 
> PS Tell your wife that teachers are respected here, not blamed for society's ills as they often are in the UK.


well in the state schools they are, anyway - by the spanish parents

unfortunately many british parents blame the schools & teachers for the fact that their 16 year old son/daughter who was dumped into spanish school at the age of 13 hasn't learned spanish, so hasn't passed anything, bunks off & goes out getting so drunk s/he needs a stomach pump

I'm not entirely sure that that's the case in the International/British schools either -at least not the ones I've had contact with - the parents rarely seem to respect the staff


----------



## Captain Leaky

Alcalaina said:


> It really depends enormously where you are. We live in a small rural town with very few immigrants (or expats as some people like to call themselves) and we were made very welcome by the locals, some of whom are now good friends. They are scathing towards some of the Brits here who drink too much and don't learn Spanish, but they are still polite to their faces (they need their business).
> 
> As said above, family is everything here. Kids are treated really well, and are generally well behaved. Teenagers are not treated as pariahs, they are part of the community. There is virtually no violent crime and very little vandalism in my town. There is some petty theft and a growing drug problem, as everywhere, largely due to the appalling 45% unemployment rate amongst young people.
> 
> PS Tell your wife that teachers are respected here, not blamed for society's ills as they often are in the UK.


Thanks for the reply Alcalaina, gosh i feel for the young having a 45% unemployment rate.I will tell my OH, in our opion the parents who blame School for society ills are usually the horrible parents.


----------



## Captain Leaky

xabiachica said:


> well in the state schools they are, anyway - by the spanish parents
> 
> unfortunately many british parents blame the schools & teachers for the fact that their 16 year old son/daughter who was dumped into spanish school at the age of 13 hasn't learned spanish, so hasn't passed anything, bunks off & goes out getting so drunk s/he needs a stomach pump
> 
> I'm not entirely sure that that's the case in the International/British schools either -at least not the ones I've had contact with - the parents rarely seem to respect the staff


There is 2 sides to everything eh xabiachica.
Surely everyone knows the younger a child learns a new language the better.To expect a 13yr old to learn another language at the drop of a hat is, well, silly.

So your saying in your experience that British parents at British schools behave the same as some parents in the Uk.


----------



## xabiaxica

Captain Leaky said:


> There is 2 sides to everything eh xabiachica.
> Surely everyone knows the younger a child learns a new language the better.To expect a 13yr old to learn another language at the drop of a hat is, well, silly.
> 
> So your saying in your experience that British parents at British schools behave the same as some parents in the Uk.


well, not ALL of them are as bad as that - but it does seem to be a cultural attitude thing to blame the schools/teachers rather than the stupid decision you made & lack of control that you have over your own kids


you're right - seriously - what chance does an older kid have of learning the language THAT quickly? - but unfortunately I've known quite a few families come here & put their kids as old as 15 into the spanish system


----------



## Alcalaina

xabiachica said:


> well in the state schools they are, anyway - by the spanish parents


Sorry, I should have made it clear they are respected in my town - where everyone is Spanish. I don't have any experience of international schools or British parents in Spain. 

But my husband taught in the UK for 20 years and it was just appalling the amount of abuse he got, towards the end of that period, especially from middle-class parents whose spoilt teenage offspring could do no wrong. We have a number of teacher friends here and the contrast is notable.


----------



## xabiaxica

Alcalaina said:


> Sorry, I should have made it clear they are respected in my town - where everyone is Spanish. I don't have any experience of international schools or British parents in Spain.
> 
> But my husband taught in the UK for 20 years and it was just appalling the amount of abuse he got, towards the end of that period, especially from middle-class parents whose spoilt teenage offspring could do no wrong. We have a number of teacher friends here and the contrast is notable.


yes - generally teachers are respected here

more than that - in primary school they are adored by the kids & the parents alike

my younger dd has just finished primary school, and we went to the end of year show

the head teacher announced that she was retiring & quite a lot of the parents (including me) & kids (including mine) were visibly upset

at the end of the evening there were queues of people wanting a chat & a hug & a photo with her

the same with the class teachers - the kids leaving wanted a last hug & photo with their teacher

strangely - the teachers including the head are all known by their first name, the atmosphere is very informal - yet they are respected

the same in ESO - first names all round - but mutual respect

maybe that's the key - the respect is mutual


----------



## fourgotospain

My kids go to the same school as xabiachica's youngest and we can't get over the hold those teachers seem to have on the little darlings! It really is 'harsh but fair' and lots of fun too. The PE teacher who left last summer came back this year to the end of year show and was pretty much mobbed by adoring past pupils! What's also lovely is that when we see them out and about in town they always give the kids a hug and say 'hi' or frrantically wave out of the car window - it's a community that they are all made to feel essential in.

My girls were 9 and 6 when we came here, after 18 months they are all but fluent and speaking spanish to them, I think, is as natural as english in the appropriate circumstances.

As said above, the spanish/Javean teenagers I've met are loud, outgoing and love to party at fiestas but never threatening - it's far too hot for a hoody!


----------



## elainecyprus

Hi all

Interesting reading. Me and my fiance are coming over next weekend to have a look around schools, areas etc. We have 2 boys (10 & 8) and are looking to move to the Javea area at the begining of Sept. Can I ask what the name of the school is that your children go to?, we would like to have a look. Also can someone please tell me if the banks are open on Saturdays? 

Many thanks


----------



## xabiaxica

elainecyprus said:


> Hi all
> 
> Interesting reading. Me and my fiance are coming over next weekend to have a look around schools, areas etc. We have 2 boys (10 & 8) and are looking to move to the Javea area at the begining of Sept. Can I ask what the name of the school is that your children go to?, we would like to have a look. Also can someone please tell me if the banks are open on Saturdays?
> 
> Many thanks


fourgotospain's girls are at the Arenal school - both of mine went there too- but the younger has now 'graduated' to secondary & will join big sis at the _instituto_ in september

the schools are on holiday now, (though some staff might still be around) & will be until after 9th sept for the fiesta Virgen de Loreto - so I think that the Arenal probably starts back on the 12th

there will be staff there at least from the beginning of the month though, so if you ring the bell you might get to have a look round 

it was only built a few years ago & is very clean & modern - here's the website C P L'Arenal

the banks aren't usually open on saturdays, though I think some do for a few hours in high tourist season


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## surfingdevil

*moving to Spain*

Hi all
Just thought I'd throw my two-pennies worth into the mix.

My partner and I moved out here to Mallorca, Spain just over one year ago. We only have one child and he is now 7. As soon as we got here I enrolled him in Summer school so that he could start picking up the language a little before school began in September. Although Mallorca may be different to living on the peninsular there are large similarities also.

For the first two weeks of summer school my son became a complete nightmare at home. He was very miserable and I hadn't fully understood why - but a couple of meltdowns, a large mug of hot chocolate and a really great heart to heart chat, I managed to discover that he was happy here, he just was so very frustrated because he couldn't communicate with anyone. There are few people in my town that speak English, or rather, it isn't until you have attempted speaking Spanish with them for months on end that you realise they actually do speak some English! 

anyway, after that he was fine and has coped amazingly well. He is not at an international/British school - we couldn't afford that anyway, but he is thriving. He has mastered a huge amount of Catalan (they are taught in Catalan here) and also Spanish (Castillian). The English classes they do in the schools are a bit basic so we are going through Key Stage whatever it is books with him here at home and hope that will keep him at a good level should we return to the UK - perish the thought!

My son is 100% happier here at his school and with life on the island than he ever was in the UK. His handwriting - at the age of 6 - was appalling when we arrived here and his teacher was amazed at how bad it was (no-one had ever said anything in the UK of course), but within a couple of weeks his writing was amazing in comparison. He had extra Catalan lessons at school and an hour per week out of school , but now they have stopped and although he has another year of support, when he goes back in September for the third year, they have said that he is more than able to use the same books etc as all the other students.

The only other thing I will say is that when he started at school, we were a little shocked at the amount of homework they were given at such a young age. He starts at 9am and finishes at 2pm. They break up in the summer by about the 22nd June as it is too hot to 'study'. Now the homework thing isn't an issue and I actually think its a good thing - certainly in his case - all children are different but we have had a very positive experience - as far as schooling goes.

As far as work goes - thats another story - my partner goes back and forth to the UK as there is nothing here for him! I am at the moment teaching English to foreign kids at a tennis school and do the occasional bit of hairdressing, but there is very little. Better to start off meeting as many expats as poss (not something we wanted to do but needs must) because work is often word of mouth, certainly here on this holiday island.

Good luck with it all.:cheer2:


----------



## Captain Leaky

What a lovely little two-pennies worth it was Surfingdevil.

Does your little boy have spanish friends from the school?.

We know a family that when they moved to Spain put there 7yr old boy in an English School and became very un-happy because all the kids in his class lived so far apart he didnt have any mates to play with at home,they moved him into the local Spanish school and now has mates to play with and can speak fluent Spanish.

Sorry to hear about the work situation and hope it gets better for you.


----------



## Captain Leaky

Thanks to everyone else for there input, very useful to hear your stories, keep them coming.


----------



## elainecyprus

Thanks for all the info.


----------



## surfingdevil

Captain Leaky said:


> What a lovely little two-pennies worth it was Surfingdevil.
> 
> Does your little boy have spanish friends from the school?.
> 
> We know a family that when they moved to Spain put there 7yr old boy in an English School and became very un-happy because all the kids in his class lived so far apart he didnt have any mates to play with at home,they moved him into the local Spanish school and now has mates to play with and can speak fluent Spanish.
> 
> Sorry to hear about the work situation and hope it gets better for you.


Yes our son has friends from school, but he doesn't see them out of school so much. That is partly my fault as the mothers here do not approach you, you have to make the first move. However, we often go to the main square and he always sees his pals there and they can safely run about and have fun together. I need to start inviting some of his pals back to the house more often. Life seems to be safer here, in general, and they don't freak out about paedophiles etc being round every corner as they do in the UK, and teachers are allowed to hug their students if there is a problem here. The whole family ethic is so much better and exactly what we wanted for our boy. There seems to be more respect - of which I rarely saw any in the UK.


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## Pesky Wesky

*British schools, Valencia, education*

Here's a link to British schools in Valencia which some of you might find useful.
English Schools in Valencia - Education & Schools - Valencia


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## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> Here's a link to British schools in Valencia which some of you might find useful.
> English Schools in Valencia - Education & Schools - Valencia


some of our spanish 'summer neighbours' from valencia send their kids to Caxton College - they reckon it's excellent


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## agua642

Are these state schools or private ?


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## xabiaxica

agua642 said:


> Are these state schools or private ?


Caxton College is private, as are the rest on PW's link


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## agua642

Thanks unfortunatly can't afford private


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## galizaian

*home school can be good*

Home schooling does not imply isolation, many home schoolers are taught in group situations with highly educated parents and often have support from part time teachers or ex teachers who are fed up with the state system and many groups offer a rich and stimulating learning environment. Home school groups may meet up for days out and the children may well have more opportunity to learn in real world situations such as on the beach, in forests or other natural environments.

Sorry this is well out of place I had a message open about home schools when I hit reply and my reply is now a log way from that message.


----------



## jojo

galizaian said:


> Home schooling does not imply isolation, many home schoolers are taught in group situations with highly educated parents and often have support from part time teachers or ex teachers who are fed up with the state system and many groups offer a rich and stimulating learning environment. Home school groups may meet up for days out and the children may well have more opportunity to learn in real world situations such as on the beach, in forests or other natural environments.



Sounds like a normal school to me!? However, good or bad, in Spain homeschooling is considered illegal I believe

Jo xxx


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## galizaian

jojo said:


> Sounds like a normal school to me!? However, good or bad, in Spain homeschooling is considered illegal I believe
> 
> Jo xxx


I may have posted this elsewhere in here but I will reiterate because I feel it is very important. We are now back in the UK after struggling with schools in Galicia, I would strongly advise anyone to try out the schools before committing to buying - similar to the rent before you buy approach. We were told the village school was wonderful however; the one teacher was not pleasant, she smoked in the hall outside the one classroom, my 5 year old was given a photocopied large number 2 to colour in every day for a week, when we complained she made an aside to a parent that the English were worse than Pakistanis. After a few nightmare months we moved the children to a larger school where the first words from the Head were along the lines of "I hope your children are already fluent in Galician and Castilian as we will not give them any help to learn the languages" The English teachers could not speak English at all well, pupils sat in rows of single desks were not allowed to speak unless spoken to, they mostly worked out of very boring books. Art was mostly colouring in photocopies or copying other artists pictures. If a child cried they were not to comfort the child. There were 8 computers in a school of 460 children non of which were manufactured this century and most of which did not work. The one interactive whiteboard was broken and no one knew how to use it, all classrooms had chalk and blackboards. Parents were not allowed in school during teaching time and teachers did a lot of shouting and banging on desks, eventually one teacher hit my youngest child and the head teacher supported that action and told us the reason England has a lot of crime is because parents and teachers do not hit children enough. We were told the unions would support the teacher - teachers in the school told us it was a terrible place to work and many moved on as soon as they could. The Junta said we would need a grave reason to move schools again and they could not see any grave reasons in what we reported. We moved back to the Uk at the end of Dec 2010 and our children are flourishing and in 6 months have almost caught up on three lost years. They are both highly motivated, caring and intelligent with outstanding skills in Maths and Art. it is wonderful to read of good schools in Spain but I do think it is important to check the school out before you commit to living in an area. I do love all other aspects of life in Galicia and hope to return to live out there when our children have flown the nest.


----------



## jojo

galizaian said:


> I may have posted this elsewhere in here but I will reiterate because I feel it is very important. We are now back in the UK after struggling with schools in Galicia, I would strongly advise anyone to try out the schools before committing to buying - similar to the rent before you buy approach. We were told the village school was wonderful however; the one teacher was not pleasant, she smoked in the hall outside the one classroom, my 5 year old was given a photocopied large number 2 to colour in every day for a week, when we complained she made an aside to a parent that the English were worse than Pakistanis. After a few nightmare months we moved the children to a larger school where the first words from the Head were along the lines of "I hope your children are already fluent in Galician and Castilian as we will not give them any help to learn the languages" The English teachers could not speak English at all well, pupils sat in rows of single desks were not allowed to speak unless spoken to, they mostly worked out of very boring books. Art was mostly colouring in photocopies or copying other artists pictures. If a child cried they were not to comfort the child. There were 8 computers in a school of 460 children non of which were manufactured this century and most of which did not work. The one interactive whiteboard was broken and no one knew how to use it, all classrooms had chalk and blackboards. Parents were not allowed in school during teaching time and teachers did a lot of shouting and banging on desks, eventually one teacher hit my youngest child and the head teacher supported that action and told us the reason England has a lot of crime is because parents and teachers do not hit children enough. We were told the unions would support the teacher - teachers in the school told us it was a terrible place to work and many moved on as soon as they could. The Junta said we would need a grave reason to move schools again and they could not see any grave reasons in what we reported. We moved back to the Uk at the end of Dec 2010 and our children are flourishing and in 6 months have almost caught up on three lost years. They are both highly motivated, caring and intelligent with outstanding skills in Maths and Art. it is wonderful to read of good schools in Spain but I do think it is important to check the school out before you commit to living in an area. I do love all other aspects of life in Galicia and hope to return to live out there when our children have flown the nest.


I guess you and your children obviously didnt bond with their schools. I personally have a lot more respect for Spanish schools as they're not so tied up with politically correctness. Infact I'd go as far as to say that many of your "dislike" comments are ones that I actually like about Spanish schools and dont like about schools in England. 

However, homeschooling is considered illegal in Spain and can be seen as child neglect by opting out of the education system

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky

galizaian said:


> I may have posted this elsewhere in here but I will reiterate because I feel it is very important. We are now back in the UK after struggling with schools in Galicia, I would strongly advise anyone to try out the schools before committing to buying - similar to the rent before you buy approach. We were told the village school was wonderful however; the one teacher was not pleasant, she smoked in the hall outside the one classroom, my 5 year old was given a photocopied large number 2 to colour in every day for a week, when we complained she made an aside to a parent that the English were worse than Pakistanis. After a few nightmare months we moved the children to a larger school where the first words from the Head were along the lines of "I hope your children are already fluent in Galician and Castilian as we will not give them any help to learn the languages" The English teachers could not speak English at all well, pupils sat in rows of single desks were not allowed to speak unless spoken to, they mostly worked out of very boring books. Art was mostly colouring in photocopies or copying other artists pictures. If a child cried they were not to comfort the child. There were 8 computers in a school of 460 children non of which were manufactured this century and most of which did not work. The one interactive whiteboard was broken and no one knew how to use it, all classrooms had chalk and blackboards. Parents were not allowed in school during teaching time and teachers did a lot of shouting and banging on desks, eventually one teacher hit my youngest child and the head teacher supported that action and told us the reason England has a lot of crime is because parents and teachers do not hit children enough. We were told the unions would support the teacher - teachers in the school told us it was a terrible place to work and many moved on as soon as they could. The Junta said we would need a grave reason to move schools again and they could not see any grave reasons in what we reported. We moved back to the Uk at the end of Dec 2010 and our children are flourishing and in 6 months have almost caught up on three lost years. They are both highly motivated, caring and intelligent with outstanding skills in Maths and Art. it is wonderful to read of good schools in Spain but I do think it is important to check the school out before you commit to living in an area. I do love all other aspects of life in Galicia and hope to return to live out there when our children have flown the nest.


Although it seems you didn't have much luck with the schools you sent your children to, I do recognise your list of complaints as being ones that I have encountered in the state system - not all in one school though! However, I live here, am not going back, my (daughter and husband are Spanish) and am not capacitated to homeschool - nor would I want to, so I have to make what is on offer work.
As Jo has said, home schooling is illegal here and is seen as taking away the rights of children to an education that must be offered to them by the state. And actually, that's the way I see it. The state should offer a reasonable education to its children.
Most will be of the opinion that the Spanish school system is far from perfect, but I can only compare it to the UK system, far from perfect I think we can agree and private eduacation in Colombia -also imperfect. 
But IMO, that's life. Imperfect. Not many people succeed in living out of the system and so (unforunately) I have come to the conclusion that I have to equip my daughter to live within the system, questioning it, but living within it. Now it may be thought that's just an excuse on my part, and it might be, but that's what we're living with right now.


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## baldilocks

Around here (in Andalucia), the schools seem to be quite good, although the English and French teaching could be much better** and education is well supported by the Town Hall (we are only a village!) with extra-curricula activities, and by the Junta who have decided that every child should have a laptop computer and the necessary bag to carry it in, *and* have supplied them!

We have some 20+ students in both languages (plus Brit adults for Spanish!) come to the house for private lessons (1 to 1) and many of them are children of the local teachers. In addition, my wife also runs and teaches in the local branch of the Academy in Alcalá la Real.

** The teaching books that are used here are absolute rubbish. They are produced by OUP (Yes THE OUP!) and are really dumbed down and no help at all. After several years learning English at school, the kids don't even know the present tense of the verb "to be" - why? because they are only taught the contracted form (I'm, you're, he's, she's, it's, etc) so they think that the verb 'to be' is 'm, 're, 's. They are taught "I want" rather than "I'd like", they are taught "Can I...", when they really need "May I..." and the latter is made more difficult because there is no difference in Spanish just as there is no difference between "tell" and "say" in Spanish but all the difference in the world when it comes to English. {end of rant!} 

We need a Grrrr! smiley!


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## fourgotospain

There are things I agree with at our school - teachers comforting children, strong discipline, reduced curriculum - and there are things that I don't think are so great - school dinners, lots of homework etc. But in our school I'm sure that the students welfare is the #1 prority of the staff NOT paperwork and tick charts. As PW says I've never expected a school to raise my child, just teach her. Smoking in corridors happens in real life, at some stage you have to deal with it.


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## jojo

galizaian said:


> I may have posted this elsewhere in here but I will reiterate because I feel it is very important. We are now back in the UK after struggling with schools in Galicia, I would strongly advise anyone to try out the schools before committing to buying - similar to the rent before you buy approach. We were told the village school was wonderful however; the one teacher was not pleasant, she smoked in the hall outside the one classroom, my 5 year old was given a photocopied large number 2 to colour in every day for a week, when we complained she made an aside to a parent that the English were worse than Pakistanis. After a few nightmare months we moved the children to a larger school where the first words from the Head were along the lines of "I hope your children are already fluent in Galician and Castilian as we will not give them any help to learn the languages" The English teachers could not speak English at all well, pupils sat in rows of single desks were not allowed to speak unless spoken to, they mostly worked out of very boring books. Art was mostly colouring in photocopies or copying other artists pictures. If a child cried they were not to comfort the child. There were 8 computers in a school of 460 children non of which were manufactured this century and most of which did not work. The one interactive whiteboard was broken and no one knew how to use it, all classrooms had chalk and blackboards. Parents were not allowed in school during teaching time and teachers did a lot of shouting and banging on desks, eventually one teacher hit my youngest child and the head teacher supported that action and told us the reason England has a lot of crime is because parents and teachers do not hit children enough. We were told the unions would support the teacher - teachers in the school told us it was a terrible place to work and many moved on as soon as they could. The Junta said we would need a grave reason to move schools again and they could not see any grave reasons in what we reported. We moved back to the Uk at the end of Dec 2010 and our children are flourishing and in 6 months have almost caught up on three lost years. They are both highly motivated, caring and intelligent with outstanding skills in Maths and Art. it is wonderful to read of good schools in Spain but I do think it is important to check the school out before you commit to living in an area. I do love all other aspects of life in Galicia and hope to return to live out there when our children have flown the nest.


Maybe you should have tried an international school, IMO they are far and away better than any english school here in the UK and possibly better than spanish state schools. My daughter went to an international school in Spain and returned to the UK at the end of last term. She was thrilled that, altho she was placed in the top stream classes, the work was so easy and all stuff that she'd done before. She also was quite shocked at the lack of discipline and teacher control, she said the only time the teachers shout was to try to be heard over the noise of the pupils. I'm mortified she's there and hoping she'll return with me to spain!

Jo xxx


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## plainmoor

The school my daughter goes to in Castril is excellent, they are always out and about when the weather is good doing classes in the valley or on the edge of the local river. We have been here six years and have no complaints at all about the school system here.


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## hanwood

HI ALL,
SORRY but am going to ask an old one ! But we are looking to come over to gran alicant next year!SCHOOL i have 6&7 year old and was wanting some help with all to do with local state school in alicant so if anyone could please help THANKS


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## xabiaxica

hanwood said:


> HI ALL,
> SORRY but am going to ask an old one ! But we are looking to come over to gran alicant next year!SCHOOL i have 6&7 year old and was wanting some help with all to do with local state school in alicant so if anyone could please help THANKS


Hi & welcome

do you have an address yet? - probaly not, but when you do...............

what you need to do is go to the local ayuntamiento to find out which school it is and exactly what paperwork you need - it can vary slightly from town to town


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## hanwood

*Thank you*

Thanks , we will do that we are going to come over to alicant in oct sch hols to check things out so would LOVE any help on offer and would LOVE to meet anyone if nearby drinks on us:clap2: !


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## andmac

Hi,

Has anyone else listened to the free CDs from El Mundo which purport to teach English?


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## puertouk

*Spanish schools*

The Spanish school system is poor and here in Tenerife in the Canary Islands is even worse still. The stories we hear are truly shocking. Kids in IT classes have 1 PC for 8.2 children!  How on earth can they learn anything, especially with that kind of ratio. The Canary Islands are mostly tourist driven, yet the kids who leave school cannot speak English, which I find amazing, as the largest employer, is tourism.

My wife died in January 2011 and my 11 year old son moved out to live with me in July. The quaundry I had was his schooling and what to do. If he went to a Spanish state school, he would lose at least 6 months of schooling. He obviously could not speak Spanish, so the only alternative is private education. Luckily, there's a private English run school (Wingate) in the South of the Island, which my partner and I decided to send him to. We managed to get him enroled, but talking to other parents, some had to wait 18 months to get their children into the school. Even the Spanish are sending their kids to Wingate now. At €1350 a term with 3 terms a year, it's a fraction of the price it would cost in the UK. Anyone considering moving to Spain with kids, need to take a close look at their kids futures, because the Spanish education system is not very good and now we hear that they are making cutbacks and losing teachers. My advise is, if you cannot afford to send your kids to a private school I would stay in the UK.


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## MacRov

Well our 2 (5y/o & 8y/o) have both just started state school today after a bit of a struggle with the town hall & school to actually make a decision. The school did have a bit of a grumble that our 8 y/o daughter doesn't really speak much Spanish but we are working on it and thankfully she's already found a friend in the class that speaks english to help.
Loads of books to buy for both, even for pre-school but just glad that they're in and mixing with kids.


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## Pesky Wesky

puertouk said:


> The Spanish school system is poor and here in Tenerife in the Canary Islands is even worse still. The stories we hear are truly shocking. Kids in IT classes have 1 PC for 8.2 children!  How on earth can they learn anything, especially with that kind of ratio. The Canary Islands are mostly tourist driven, yet the kids who leave school cannot speak English, which I find amazing, as the largest employer, is tourism.
> 
> My wife died in January 2011 and my 11 year old son moved out to live with me in July. The quaundry I had was his schooling and what to do. If he went to a Spanish state school, he would lose at least 6 months of schooling. He obviously could not speak Spanish, so the only alternative is private education. Luckily, there's a private English run school (Wingate) in the South of the Island, which my partner and I decided to send him to. We managed to get him enroled, but talking to other parents, some had to wait 18 months to get their children into the school. Even the Spanish are sending their kids to Wingate now. At €1350 a term with 3 terms a year, it's a fraction of the price it would cost in the UK. Anyone considering moving to Spain with kids, need to take a close look at their kids futures, because the Spanish education system is not very good and now we hear that they are making cutbacks and losing teachers. My advise is, if you cannot afford to send your kids to a private school I would stay in the UK.


Well, 1 PC between 8.2 children is not going to do the trick, is it!?
However, although I'm sure it's not the done thing, I'm going to quote myself from another thread.



> There will always be divided opinions when it comes to education. After a while I think you just come to acept that the approach to education is different, and each one has its pluses and minuses.


and another one from this very thread


> Most will be of the opinion that the Spanish school system is far from perfect, but I can only compare it to the UK system, far from perfect I think we can agree and private education in Colombia -also imperfect.
> But IMO, that's life. Imperfect (...) I have come to the conclusion that I have to equip my daughter to live within the system, questioning it, but living within it. Now it may be thought that's just an excuse on my part, and it might be, but that's what we're living with right now.


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## Brangus

puertouk said:


> the Spanish education system is not very good and now we hear that they are making cutbacks and losing teachers. My advise is, if you cannot afford to send your kids to a private school I would stay in the UK.


This is ringing true here in Castilla-La Mancha, where the ministry of education has suddenly and unexpectedly ceased its participation in the British Council's bilingual schools program.


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## Pesky Wesky

Brangus said:


> This is ringing true here in Castilla-La Mancha, where the ministry of education has suddenly and unexpectedly ceased its participation in the British Council's bilingual schools program.


And Madrid. See the _*Winter of discontent*_ thread


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## Guest

Wait, they've cut the BC program in Castilla-La Mancha _and_ Madrid? 
Has this happened anywhere else? What's happening with the BC program? We've lost at least one (I'm not certain how many there were in total) here as well.


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## Brangus

halydia said:


> Wait, they've cut the BC program in Castilla-La Mancha _and_ Madrid?
> Has this happened anywhere else? What's happening with the BC program? We've lost at least one (I'm not certain how many there were in total) here as well.


You might find more info at the Facebook page "En defensa del proyecto MEC - British Council en Castilla-La Mancha."

I think only CLM is affected -- for now anyway.


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## Guest

It's not just CLM. 
Read the letter students in Cantabria wrote to the regional minister of education: 
http://es-es.facebook.com/notes/amp...los-alumnos-para-el-consejero/249996795044774


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## Pesky Wesky

halydia said:


> It's not just CLM.
> Read the letter students in Cantabria wrote to the regional minister of education:
> La Carta en inglés de los alumnos para el Consejero | Facebook


There's lots of stuff going on down here Halydia. 
There's trouble with some Irish teachers who've got caught up in an Espe plan...
I've sent you a pm.


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## Pesky Wesky

I don't know where to put this outrageous news as this is a theme (that quite understandably) doesn't interest everyone, so I'll stick it in here and the mods can change it if they want to.

This teacher's story illustrates some of the effects all the cuts and stupidity that's going on in Madrid, Castilla La Mancha, Galicia and possibly other parts of Spain are having.

She is a Spanish teacher, but she was given a place where she had to teach Spanish, Latin, History and Culture of Religion, and FRENCH. She hasn't studied French since she was at school herself. She told her story to _20 minutos_ a very popular free newspaper. In the article she only complains about the French, not the other 2 subjects.
She says...


> *"Me avergüenza fingir* que soy profesora de Francés y no serlo. *Lo van a ver *y, aunque nadie se diera cuenta, es cuestión de honradez".


I'm ashamed to pretend that I'm a French teacher and not be one really. They're going to see it and even if no one notices it's a question of honesty.


> *"Ya me sé los números *y los colores en francés, que será lo que dé la semana que viene",


I know the numbers and the colours in French and that's what I'll do next week.

After this story was taken up by the media, she was given a place in another school. The authorities are saying that she accepted the place. 

I happen to know that if you don't accept the place you are given, you are taken off the list for that year or put at the end (of possibly hundreds of candidates). It's not a punishment given by an unsympathetic civil servant - that is the legal procedure so you HAVE to accept, and then protest.

Here's the article in full
http://www.20minutos.es/noticia/1170284/0/profesora/frances-madrid/no-sabe-frances/

PS For those that know the story OH has a 3 week substitution - He's the first on the list of his speciality, and that the best they've got to offer him.


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## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> I don't know where to put this outrageous news as this is a theme (that quite understandably) doesn't interest everyone, so I'll stick it in here and the mods can change it if they want to.
> 
> This teacher's story illustrates some of the effects all the cuts and stupidity that's going on in Madrid, Castilla La Mancha, Galicia and possibly other parts of Spain are having.
> 
> She is a Spanish teacher, but she was given a place where she had to teach Spanish, Latin, History and Culture of Religion, and FRENCH. She hasn't studied French since she was at school herself. She told her story to _20 minutos_ a very popular free newspaper. In the article she only complains about the French, not the other 2 subjects.
> She says...
> I'm ashamed to pretend that I'm a French teacher and not be one really. They're going to see it and even if no one notices it's a question of honesty.
> I know the numbers and the colours in French and that's what I'll do next week.
> 
> After this story was taken up by the media, she was given a place in another school. The authorities are saying that she accepted the place.
> 
> I happen to know that if you don't accept the place you are given, you are taken off the list for that year or put at the end (of possibly hundreds of candidates). It's not a punishment given by an unsympathetic civil servant - that is the legal procedure so you HAVE to accept, and then protest.
> 
> Here's the article in full
> "Doy francés, pero no lo hablo" - 20minutos.es - El medio social
> 
> PS For those that know the story OH has a 3 week substitution - He's the first on the list of his speciality, and that the best they've got to offer him.


good(ish) news for your OH - ridiculous about this other teacher though

it seems that there could well be cuts in our region too - neither of my daughters have a _Sociales_ teacher thus far - the younger one has been told a name - but no-one has turned up yet

in my 15 year old's music class there are 35 students - there aren't enough chairs to go around or any room to put any more - so I suspect that that could be an indication of some sort of cuts too


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## Guest

xabiachica said:


> *in my 15 year old's music class there are 35 students* - there aren't enough chairs to go around or any room to put any more - so I suspect that that could be an indication of some sort of cuts too


I don't think that's legal. Is it a public school? I'm not sure what the legal limit is in your autonomous region, but that couldn't happen up here. 


PW, it's not the first time I've seen something like that. The quote that really gets me is: _La consejera de Educación, Lucía Figar, aseguró por su parte que Nadia Saffouri "aceptó dar esas materias frente a otras posibilidades, rechazó cambiar de plaza y manifestó a la dirección del instituto que estaba preparada para impartir Francés"._

(The regional education minister, Lucia Figar, assured that Nadia Saffouri "agreed to teach these classes over other possibilities, rejected the opportunity to change schools and told school officials that she was prepared to teach French.) 

I call BS on Sra. Figar. 

The PP is in power up here as well, but I must admit that we haven't been feeling that much in education so far. I hope the consejero continues to behave well.

Congrats to OH. It's not much, but it's something! We're still waiting for the phone to ring and see where they'll send mine. The students just completed 15 days without a teacher so, Monday, they've GOT to start calling subs!


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## agua642

Big cuts in valencia region, in IES Pedreguer, they have no Spanish teacher and there's 31 in a class de 4ESO in bachelerato there's 48 in class


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## xabiaxica

agua642 said:


> Big cuts in valencia region, in IES Pedreguer, they have no Spanish teacher and there's 31 in a class de 4ESO in bachelerato there's 48 in class


halydia's comment got me thinking - and googling

seems they were fully expecting class sizes of up to 35 in ESO, in the Alicante province, which we come under

Educación pretende aumentar a 35 los alumnos por aula en Secundaria - Informacion.es



> El número de alumnos de Educación Secundaria Obligatoria (ESO) por aula podría aumentar el próximo curso de 30 a 35 como máximo. Así lo estiman tanto los sindicatos de enseñanza como los directores de la provincia. Tal como temía el colectivo docente, tras las elecciones se prevé un serio recorte de medios en los centros, y, una de las fórmulas más recurrentes para disminuir el número de profesores y unidades escolares es la ampliación del ratio por clase. De esta forma, se permitirán hasta 35 alumnos por aula cuando hasta el vigente curso se permitían 30



_The number of pupils in secondary education (ESO) per classroom next year could increase 30 to 35 at most. Both teacher unions and the directors of the province are expecting this. As feared the educational group, after the elections is expected to make serious cuts, and one of the most frequent ways to decrease the number of teachers and schools is to increase the pupil/teacher ratio. In this way, up to 35 students per class will be allowed, when currently the maximum allowed is 30._


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## Guest

I taught a class with 32 students a few years back. It's just this side of impossible - imagine trying to effectively teach English in a class that big!


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## Guest

agua642 said:


> Big cuts in valencia region, in IES Pedreguer, they have no Spanish teacher and there's 31 in a class de 4ESO in bachelerato there's 48 in class


Ah, Valencia! And the PP wants us to vote for them why?


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## baldilocks

halydia said:


> I taught a class with 32 students a few years back. It's just this side of impossible - imagine trying to effectively teach English in a class that big!


Even worse when it is a private (i.e. not compulsory school) Academy after a week of school on a Friday evening at 7 or 8 pm when the kids would rather be out enjoying themselves!


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## Guest

This was in a "semi-private" (compulsory) school.
I can't even begin to imagine an academy with classes that big!


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## xabiaxica

halydia said:


> I taught a class with 32 students a few years back. It's just this side of impossible - imagine trying to effectively teach English in a class that big!


oddly, or maybe not oddly, it didn't shock me

when I was at school in the UK we had 40 kids in my primary school class, and in secondary, always around 30

even when I was doing my teaching practice about 18 years ago, classes were around the 30 mark

that doesn't make it right - & certainly not easy - but unfortunately not uncommon


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## Pesky Wesky

halydia said:


> I don't think that's legal. Is it a public school? I'm not sure what the legal limit is in your autonomous region, but that couldn't happen up here.
> 
> A friend of mine asked OH to look it up as that's exactly what's happened to her son. The limit is 35 and OH _*thinks*_ it's a national class size limit. 48 is definitely TOO MANY
> 
> PW, it's not the first time I've seen something like that. The quote that really gets me is: _La consejera de Educación, Lucía Figar, aseguró por su parte que Nadia Saffouri "aceptó dar esas materias frente a otras posibilidades, rechazó cambiar de plaza y manifestó a la dirección del instituto que estaba preparada para impartir Francés"._
> 
> (The regional education minister, Lucia Figar, assured that Nadia Saffouri "agreed to teach these classes over other possibilities, rejected the opportunity to change schools and told school officials that she was prepared to teach French.)
> 
> I call BS on Sra. Figar.
> 
> That's what I meant when I said that the teacher has to accept the place and then protest, not the other way around. In fact OH was saying at lunch that when you get called the first thing is that you have to go the very next day or nothing. Then you go to which ever office corresponds to you which may be hours away from your home. Then you are told you have a job in XXX. You might not have a clue where XXX is, if you can get there or not (not everybody has a car don't forget) or how long it's going to take to get there. On top of that they don't tell you what you'll be teaching. For example OH teaches business administration. There is a wide range of subjects that come under that umbrella from teaching excell to typewriting to how to do payslips to stuff about the constitution. So you have to accept a job when you don't know the exact location, nor what it entails and sometimes without knowing the salary. Then, you're supposed to go the same day if possible or if not the next day to start teaching. OH has usually done a couple of hundred kilometers by the time he gets home after this process and then spends the next couple of hours working out how to get to XXX on public transport and then he might be lucky enough to get a couple of hours thinking about what to do in class!
> No, it's not the end of the world, but it's not the best system and it could be improved vastly to the benefit of all involved, not least of which the students.
> 
> The PP is in power up here as well, but I must admit that we haven't been feeling that much in education so far. I hope the consejero continues to behave well.
> 
> Congrats to OH. It's not much, but it's something! We're still waiting for the phone to ring and see where they'll send mine. The students just completed 15 days without a teacher so, Monday, they've GOT to start calling subs!
> As you say, they've got to start calling on Monday, so make sure OH has a big brekkie ready for the bureaucracy of the day ahead!


****


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## Guest

Pesky Wesky said:


> A friend of mine asked OH to look it up as that's exactly what's happened to her son. The limit is 35 and OH thinks it's a national class size limit. 48 is definitely TOO MANY


I wish I could find the laws for here but it's Friday and I've switched my education brain off. 




> That's what I meant when I said that the teacher has to accept the place and then protest, not the other way around. In fact OH was saying at lunch that when you get called the first thing is that you have to go the very next day or nothing. Then you go to which ever office corresponds to you which may be hours away from your home. Then you are told you have a job in XXX. You might not have a clue where XXX is, if you can get there or not (not everybody has a car don't forget) or how long it's going to take to get there. On top of that they don't tell you what you'll be teaching. For example OH teaches business administration. There is a wide range of subjects that come under that umbrella from teaching excell to typewriting to how to do payslips to stuff about the constitution. So you have to accept a job when you don't know the exact location, nor what it entails and sometimes without knowing the salary. Then, you're supposed to go the same day if possible or if not the next day to start teaching. OH has usually done a couple of hundred kilometers by the time he gets home after this process and then spends the next couple of hours working out how to get to XXX on public transport and then he might be lucky enough to get a couple of hours thinking about what to do in class!
> No, it's not the end of the world, but it's not the best system and it could be improved vastly to the benefit of all involved, not least of which the students.


Here, if I remember correctly, you have 24 hours to present yourself in the consejeria to sign the contract and 48 hours until you must begin working. OH usually signs the day he's called and then begins work the next day. I'm just thankful Cantabria is so small. He did the teaching tests in Castilla Leon this summer and I was terrified, wondering where he could be sent. 



> As you say, they've got to start calling on Monday, so make sure OH has a big brekkie ready for the bureaucracy of the day ahead!


Thankfully, this year we're just a half hour away from Santander. We're just praying he doesn't get sent to southern Cantabria or into the mountains near Potes! Rumor has it there's a substitution open in the town where I work. Now, that would be nice!


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## Pesky Wesky

halydia said:


> Thankfully, this year we're just a half hour away from Santander. We're just praying he doesn't get sent to southern Cantabria or into the mountains near Potes! Rumor has it there's a substitution open in the town where I work. Now, that would be nice!


Here's hoping he nails a meaty substitution in Santander


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## Guest

We look at substitutions as just another way to get to know Cantabria.


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## Brangus

Pesky Wesky said:


> I happen to know that if you don't accept the place you are given, you are taken off the list for that year or put at the end (of possibly hundreds of candidates). It's not a punishment given by an unsympathetic civil servant - that is the legal procedure so you HAVE to accept, and then protest.


Interesting. I'd been wondering how the system works. One of my neighbors has been assigned to teach full time in Guadalajara, which is 3 hours away, so she has to rent a flat there and come home only on weekends. The family has two children, ages 6 and 9, who are without their mother 5 days of the week. The husband works 24-hour shifts as a paramedic -- a temporary job 90 minutes away in Cuenca. There is one grandparent who is healthy enough to take care of the kids while the parents are working, and she lives in an outlying rural area and has to take a bus into the city.

The kids' schoolwork suffers, in part because the mother isn't around to help them with their homework. And at a time when the 9-year-old should be feeling more independent, he has become very clingy when his mother is home.

Three generations completely stressed out.


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## Guest

Brangus said:


> Interesting. I'd been wondering how the system works. One of my neighbors has been assigned to teach full time in Guadalajara, which is 3 hours away, so she has to rent a flat there and come home only on weekends. The family has two children, ages 6 and 9, who are without their mother 5 days of the week. The husband works 24-hour shifts as a paramedic -- a temporary job 90 minutes away in Cuenca. There is one grandparent who is healthy enough to take care of the kids while the parents are working, and she lives in an outlying rural area and has to take a bus into the city.
> 
> The kids' schoolwork suffers, in part because the mother isn't around to help them with their homework. And at a time when the 9-year-old should be feeling more independent, he has become very clingy when his mother is home.
> 
> Three generations completely stressed out.


Teachers who haven't "made the cut" to be "for life" teachers are either:
1. Long-term substitutes, who can land +/- one week to year long substitutions, totally depending on luck.
2. Full year substitutes, who land a full school year job. Unless you're high on the list and the first one to choose, this means you can be sent anywhere within your _comunidad autonoma _ the next year. 

Everything here depends on points. They determine whether you're #1 or #298 on the list. These points are the total of your score on the teaching test and professional development points (years of experience, professional development courses, whether or not you're published, prizes, and even your university GPA) you've accumulated in the past years. 

How do you make the cut to be a "for life" teacher and get your "for life" place in a specific school? You have to be in the top x-number the year you take your teaching tests. For example, if 12 primary music teacher positions come out and the sum of your points (teaching test+professional development) put you at #13, you DO NOT make the cut but you do get onto the sub list (depending on factors, either 1 or 2 above). If you're #7, you're lucky and will get your cushy "for life," "just try and fire me" job. 

OH is a substitute and is still on the 1. "Long Term Substitutes" list mentioned above. Next time they hold the teaching tests here we hope he'll either get the for life job or get high up on the full year substitutions list. The system is quite hard to understand and after a number of years working in the public system and having a significant other taking the teaching tests, I'm just beginning to understand it. 

Long story short, many teachers have to move around a lot. At least it's not like it was when my father in law was young - they sent teachers *throughout Spain* in his time! Thankfully, it's limited within _comunidades autonomas_ now - and we live in one of the smallest


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## Brangus

Thanks for shedding much-needed light on the way things work.

It turns out my neighbors are yanking their kids out of school and moving to Guadalajara -- for this year, anyway. I think some consideration should be given to teachers who have young children or other family obligations.




halydia said:


> Long story short, many teachers have to move around a lot.


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## Guest

Brangus said:


> Thanks for shedding much-needed light on the way things work.
> 
> It turns out my neighbors are yanking their kids out of school and moving to Guadalajara -- for this year, anyway. I think some consideration should be given to teachers who have young children or other family obligations.


It "wouldn't be fair" that way. 
Things are decided by the number you are on the list. 

OH had a great year last year, subbing at a local school. The PTA and Principal wrote to the regional government asking them to send him again in September since they still needed a substitute. Unfortunately, he wasn't able to continue at that school because someone higher on the list than him got called before he did and chose to work there. 

By the time they called him on Monday, there were three substitutions left and only one of them was full time. Sure, he's got to travel an hour each way, but at least he's working. 

In the end, when I think about it, it makes sense. _Enchufismo_ runs rampant and I seriously wonder how the system would function if "the list" wasn't so strict.


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## Pesky Wesky

Interesting article puting the recently created state school bilingual programme under scrutiny.

A section of the article

_So what is the aim of the bilingual project?_
_If I were to be cynical I would say that it is about individuals in public office who have tapped into an area of parents’ concern and have tried to milk it for its political value. Rather than taking as a model schools that have a more intense English language programme but leave other subjects in Spanish (which gives excellent results both in English and all other subjects), they have grouped together what they see as the ‘Marias’ or less important subjects, such as art and music, and put them in English, thereby short-changing everyone._

And article in full.
Bilingual schooling obsession is gambling with children’s future | Iberosphere | Spain News and Portugal News - Information and Analysis - Spain News and Portugal News


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## Guest

Pesky Wesky said:


> Interesting article puting the recently created state school bilingual programme under scrutiny.
> 
> A section of the article
> 
> _So what is the aim of the bilingual project?_
> _If I were to be cynical I would say that it is about individuals in public office who have tapped into an area of parents’ concern and have tried to milk it for its political value. Rather than taking as a model schools that have a more intense English language programme but leave other subjects in Spanish (which gives excellent results both in English and all other subjects), they have grouped together what they see as the ‘Marias’ or less important subjects, such as art and music, and put them in English, thereby short-changing everyone._
> 
> And article in full.
> Bilingual schooling obsession is gambling with children’s future | Iberosphere | Spain News and Portugal News - Information and Analysis - Spain News and Portugal News



Fascinating article. I'd like to comment further, but the internet is an open place and I don't want to "bite the hand that feeds me."


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## baldilocks

Pesky Wesky said:


> Interesting article puting the recently created state school bilingual programme under scrutiny.
> 
> A section of the article
> 
> _So what is the aim of the bilingual project?_
> _If I were to be cynical I would say that it is about individuals in public office who have tapped into an area of parents’ concern and have tried to milk it for its political value. Rather than taking as a model schools that have a more intense English language programme but leave other subjects in Spanish (which gives excellent results both in English and all other subjects), they have grouped together what they see as the ‘Marias’ or less important subjects, such as art and music, and put them in English, thereby short-changing everyone._
> 
> And article in full.
> Bilingual schooling obsession is gambling with children’s future | Iberosphere | Spain News and Portugal News - Information and Analysis - Spain News and Portugal News


I found it interesting too. I hope that they are not going to be using the rubbish text-books from OUP. 

At one time OUP used to be good but now... I know that, in order to make the stats in UK look good, there has been a lot of dumbing down but these OUP books are so dumbed down that any child asked to reel off the present tense of the verb "to be" would be limited to: 'm, 're, 's, 're, 're, 're. They aren't taught the full version first and then allowed to abbreviate. 

My wife has to spend so much time correcting what they are taught at school that she sometimes finds it difficult to get onto the subject material she is supposed to be covering.


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## francoiseoliva

*Uniform*

Only private international schools and Spanish consortium schools have a uniform.
Consortium are what they also call semi private.
They are state schools but do not get the same subventions. To make it simple a bit like the opted out school/ grant maintained in UK.
You pay considerably more for trips, school lunches and clubs. Also, the uniform is not sold anywhere else but the school and they want you to purchase the books there too and not, for ex,in Carrefour.


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## Guest

If you speak Spanish, check this out and please, if you can vote in the national elections - think long and hard about your vote. 

La Resta de Todos - YouTube


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## Pesky Wesky

halydia said:


> If you speak Spanish, check this out and please, if you can vote in the national elections - think long and hard about your vote.
> 
> La Resta de Todos - YouTube


Have sent it on to those I know who are interested


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## SamBye

*Advice please*

Hi my husband & I are now 50 & planned to move to spain. We now have guardianship of our 7yr old grandson, my concern is what is best for him in the way of education could you plese advise me on the cost of education in spain etc many thanks sam


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## xabiaxica

SamBye said:


> Hi my husband & I are now 50 & planned to move to spain. We now have guardianship of our 7yr old grandson, my concern is what is best for him in the way of education could you plese advise me on the cost of education in spain etc many thanks sam


state education is free, apart from the cost of books & other incidentals - maybe 500€ a year (less probably at 7 years old)

of course that would be in Spanish

if you wanted a 'British' education you'd need to look at the private International schools - the costs vary but around 4-5000€ a year would be a ballpark figure

have a look at Welcome to Nabss | Nabss


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## NatK23

I'm the same, my kids are almost 3, almost 4 and 5 1/2 and we should hopefully be moving out in the next year so I'm starting to brush up on my Spanish and start teaching the kids but I really want them to integrate into their new home and make friends locally. I would have loved to have started learning languages when I was their age but basic French didn't start till P7 and Spanish wasn't until 2nd year at high school (and that was only taster lessons). I think it would be so much easier if the schools here really put an emphasis on teaching a second language in primary school too.


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## 213979

In most schools in Spain, English starts in pre-school and a second foreign language (usually French) starts in many schools in 5th grade.


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## baldilocks

SWMBO's youngest pupils for English are 4 and, from September, she will have them for French as well. So the kids in village will be starting to be tri-lingual from a very early age. If it is decided that the Helen Doran programme is to be instituted in the village then they will start even earlier.


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## Pesky Wesky

baldilocks said:


> SWMBO's youngest pupils for English are 4 and, from September, she will have them for French as well. So the kids in village will be starting to be tri-lingual from a very early age. If it is decided that the *Helen Doran *programme is to be instituted in the village then they will start even earlier.


??
Tell us more Baldi.
A link?
PS There's no stopping your wife, is there!!?? What a woman! You must be very proud of her


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## Pesky Wesky

*English teaching in spanish schools*



elenetxu said:


> In most schools in Spain, English starts in pre-school and a second foreign language (usually French) starts in many schools in 5th grade.


I didn't know that "In most schools in Spain, English starts in pre-school"But I know that the interest and investment in English training has increased considerably in the 25 years that I've been here. And it's true, the level has gone up, (few people that leave school are beginners now, which they were then despite years of English classes) but slowly, very slowly. That suggests that something has gone wrong somewhere and if you look into the system you'll see faults in training, adminstration, in politics and in general understanding of what language learning is. 
It's very sad that so much is being poured in and so little is coming out, once again because of incompent leaders.


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## baldilocks

Pesky Wesky said:


> ??
> Tell us more Baldi.
> A link?
> PS There's no stopping your wife, is there!!?? What a woman! You must be very proud of her


1. Sorry my misspelling it should be Helen Doron - just google it
2. SWMBO - of course I am. I love blowing her trumpet - she always underplays it. When I met her she was responsible for all parts of the international new broadcast on Noticias Uno TV newschannel including being the newsreader. She was bi-lingual (Spanish, English) almost from birth and then her parents sent her to a French school so she became tri-lingual from the age of 4.

We also work as a team and I usually do the visual aids and other support material.


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## sharon woods

*moving*

moving next year to spain i have a 9 year old and a 8year old what primary class will they be going in to and is it a good thing to send them in to a state school,its so hard dont no what to do


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## xabiaxica

sharon woods said:


> moving next year to spain i have a 9 year old and a 8year old what primary class will they be going in to and is it a good thing to send them in to a state school,its so hard dont no what to do


take a look at this http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...in/2725-faqs-lots-useful-info.html#post153936 you should be able to work it out


my elder daughter was nearly 9 when she started in Spanish school - she's now 17 & tbh people are often surprised to learn that she's English....


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