# New start



## astraone

Hello,

I was looking at moving to Spain from the uk, I am in the process of selling my house here and am looking to live amongst the Locals in a rural setting , I will need some kind of employment but will also have 60k from. The house sale.

Is it possible to make the move there?


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## Dunpleecin

The employment prospects will probably be a non starter unless you are A) fluent in Spanish language and B) have a skill which is desperately needed. Otherwise forget about working.

With 60k you could rent somewhere decent for a year (depending on your wishes) and in the meantime see if there is any work. Your bills would probably be around 4-500 per month too so with the savings you will have, you'll probably spend around 10-12k of your 60 in the year.

All the above will depend where you want to be. There are lots of variables in where you are, how big etc. etc.

But the big thing really is that don't come expecting to get a job.


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## tonymar

astraone said:


> Hello,
> 
> I was looking at moving to Spain from the uk, I am in the process of selling my house here and am looking to live amongst the Locals in a rural setting , I will need some kind of employment but will also have 60k from. The house sale.
> 
> Is it possible to make the move there?


Hi there welcome !

I lived in Essex ( romford ) before making the move 12 years ago .

60,000 pounds is about 80,000 euros so I think it is realistic that you could find a house in that price range .

Work is more of a problem ! what do you do for a living ?

Cheers Tony Agost Spain


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## Pesky Wesky

Some people say that you need to cut all ties with the UK if you're going to make it in another country, otherwise they say, you never really commit. They sell up lock stock and barrel and move out.
Not cutting the apron strings could well be a problem for some, but having realistic expectations is another thing to keep in mind.
Make sure you know enough about Spain, and especially living in rural Spain, before you upsticks and find that you've gone from one negative only to find another.


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## snikpoh

Pesky Wesky said:


> Some people say that you need to cut all ties with the UK if you're going to make it in another country, otherwise they say, you never really commit. They sell up lock stock and barrel and move out.
> Not cutting the apron strings could well be a problem for some, but having realistic expectations is another thing to keep in mind.
> Make sure you know enough about Spain, and especially living in rural Spain, before you upsticks and find that you've gone from one negative only to find another.


That's exactly what we did - just for those very reasons.

However, looking back on what's happened with 'the crisis' etc. I wish we'd kept one or more properties in UK and rented them out.


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## Horlics

astraone said:


> I will need some kind of employment but will also have 60k from.


Hi.

What are your plans re employment. What do you do and have you checked your target area to see what the prospects are?


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## jojo

... and what about healthcover, you may need to be paying into the Spanish system to be eligible ???
Jo xxx


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## Lynn R

Rural setting = sparsely populated = no industry = very little market for whatever services you might want to provide.

There is a reason why so many Spanish people moved away from the villages they were born in to search for work in/around the cities, and for the past five or six years they've increasingly been forced to look outside of Spain altogether.

The usual warnings about how difficult it will be to find work in Spain must be multiplied tenfold if you were to try to do it in a rural area.


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## xicoalc

I agree with everyone here that your employment plans sound vague. Even if you had a solid plan of employment you have to be so certain. In the company I work handle CV's and see people with doctorates and even experienced professionals applying for roles such as the cleaner... sell up in the UK and come with 60k on a hope and in 2 years you will be back in the UK joining the housing list... sounds harsh but its the reality that so many people I have known have gone through. 

My advice... don't sell up - rent out your house and use the income to support you here if you want to come, this gives you an option to return without loosing everything.

Initially take extended breaks and make contacts, find work. When you have a plan and income set up then make the move.

I would be very keen to know yoru work plans?


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## Helenameva

Yes, the employment situation is generally bad and worse than the UK, but it depends what you do / want to do and where you want to go. Not everywhere / everything in Spain is diabolical.


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## Horlics

I think the UK has full employment. If an unskilled bloke from Poland or Romania can turn up and earn 280 UKP a day within a couple of months of getting there, then the 1.8 million not working must be doing so through choice, inability either physically or mentally, or just too lazy.

I think there's a lot of exploitation in the UK, but if you want work it's there.


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## Lynn R

The Ayuntamiento de Malaga is about to publish the names of the peope who have been successful in applying for 814 temporary 3-month contracts for unskilled work (working 3 hours per day for a net wage of €600 per month). Good news for them, for a short time, because that's more than someone whose entitlement to unemployment benefit has run out would get.

However, over 8,000 people applied for those contracts so an awful lot more are going to be very disappointed.

Hoy se conocen los seleccionados para 814 contratos de tres meses . SUR.es

If the employment situation wasn't as bad as we say it is, I don't think we'd be reading news like this.


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## Pesky Wesky

Lynn R said:


> The Ayuntamiento de Malaga is about to publish the names of the peope who have been successful in applying for 814 temporary 3-month contracts for unskilled work (working 3 hours per day for a net wage of €600 per month). Good news for them, for a short time, because that's more than someone whose entitlement to unemployment benefit has run out would get.
> 
> However, over 8,000 people applied for those contracts so an awful lot more are going to be very disappointed.
> 
> Hoy se conocen los seleccionados para 814 contratos de tres meses . SUR.es
> 
> If the employment situation wasn't as bad as we say it is, I don't think we'd be reading news like this.


One for the real life in Spain thread???


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## oronero

Horlics said:


> I think the UK has full employment. If an unskilled bloke from Poland or Romania can turn up and earn 280 UKP a day within a couple of months of getting there...
> 
> I think there's a lot of exploitation in the UK, but if you want work it's there.



Don't believe the hype! 

I recently saw similar claims but referring to Portuguese 'brick layers in the UK'. When looking into this further the various sources contradicted one another. It became apparent that the figure was what the agencies who were supplying this 'short-term demand' were being paid for the foreign-supplied workers. The Portuguese brick-layers themselves were paid significantly less than that sum.

Just to bring a sense of norm to this, a qualified high street solicitor can expect to earn approx. £35K per annum outside of London, which works out at about £135 per day. I am very sceptical that an unskilled, unestablished foreign worker can earn £280 per day, if one does exist than he or she are extremely lucky and certainly not the norm.

Dubious headlines like this is what causes the misery around the world with people seeking a 'new prosperous life in the UK', where many of them only get as far as Calais and have an existence worse than a cockroach!


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## pittstop

The only reason unskilled foreign workers CAN get work is because they are willing to work without a contract and possibly below the minimum wage cash in hand. Don't equate exploitation with recovery from the crisis.


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## Lynn R

Pesky Wesky said:


> One for the real life in Spain thread???


Maybe, but I have to assume that the constant stream of people still looking at coming to Spain and trying to find work don't read it.


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## Lynn R

pittstop said:


> The only reason unskilled foreign workers CAN get work is because they are willing to work without a contract and possibly below the minimum wage cash in hand. Don't equate exploitation with recovery from the crisis.


Foreign workers (including British ones) used to do that here, too (hence why so many of them were in real trouble when even that work dried up, because never having paid into the social security system, they weren't entitled to any benefits).


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## Anciana

Pesky Wesky said:


> Some people say that you need to cut all ties with the UK if you're going to make it in another country, otherwise they say, you never really commit.


I totally disagree. I think this is a recipe for trouble, if not for an outright disaster. 

Because... why on earth would you want to/feel like you have to COMMIT to something/someplace you haven't even tried? 

There are SOOO many countries in the world. Many of them interesting. Why not look at life as a series of experiments, or like a chess play? Plan at least 3 moves ahead, move TO something rather than cutting ties, burning bridges and running FROM yourself? The old you will find you even in rural Spain, be so sure.


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## Pesky Wesky

Lynn R said:


> Maybe, but I have to assume that the constant stream of people still looking at coming to Spain and trying to find work don't read it.


Nevertheless the more up to date that it is the better


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## Pesky Wesky

Anciana said:


> I totally disagree. I think this is a recipe for trouble, if not for an outright disaster.
> 
> Because... why on earth would you want to/feel like you have to COMMIT to something/someplace you haven't even tried?
> 
> There are SOOO many countries in the world. Many of them interesting. Why not look at life as a series of experiments, or like a chess play? Plan at least 3 moves ahead, move TO something rather than cutting ties, burning bridges and running FROM yourself? The old you will find you even in rural Spain, be so sure.


It probably depends on the person (look at snikpoh post #5), the finances of each family and the economy of the country or area that you're going to. Certainly anyone coming here nowadays needs a plan B


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## Pesky Wesky

pittstop said:


> The only reason unskilled foreign workers CAN get work is because *they are willing to work without a contract and possibly below the minimum wage cash in hand*. Don't equate exploitation with recovery from the crisis.


As are a fair number of the Spanish in Spain.


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## Lynn R

Pesky Wesky said:


> Nevertheless the more up to date that it is the better


I can't even remember where it is, tbh - I'll have to do a search. It would be more useful, really, if it could stay at the top with the stickies, or new people who join might well not know it exists.


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## baldilocks

Anciana said:


> I totally disagree. I think this is a recipe for trouble, if not for an outright disaster.
> 
> Because... why on earth would you want to/feel like you have to COMMIT to something/someplace you haven't even tried?
> 
> There are SOOO many countries in the world. Many of them interesting. Why not look at life as a series of experiments, or like a chess play? Plan at least 3 moves ahead, move TO something rather than cutting ties, burning bridges and running FROM yourself? The old you will find you even in rural Spain, be so sure.


If you have researched properly, it isn't a problem. I started with a list of 7 countries and whittled them down (not intentionally but if they don't come up to what we wanted, they were out) and ended up with Spain. Then we carried out the same process with areas/towns, etc. Now over six years later we are all the more certain that all our choices were the right ones.

And Yes, we did commit. Sold up lock stock and barrel, fully committed to making it work. It's like marriage, if you want to keep a few old flames flickering, just in case the marriage doesn't go quite the way you hope, then it never will!


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## Anciana

baldilocks said:


> If you have researched properly, it isn't a problem. I started with a list of 7 countries and whittled them down (not intentionally but if they don't come up to what we wanted, they were out) and ended up with Spain.


Honestly, I don't care about choosing right. I'd rather have an adventure, try on different countries, different people, different lifestyles.

But it is not about me. My advice was to a person who - as it appears - runs FROM something, hasn't done enough research to know how difficult it is to get a job in Spain, even in big cities, and dreams of living -and working - among natives in the boonies.

That would be fine and dandy if she could afford to loose her capital... and were prepared for that, having a plan B and C for a good measure. Her is not a situation for cutting any ties and committing to Spain, so I worry.


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## baldilocks

We couldn't afford to lose our capital. We includes (ages at time of move) Mother in law 77 (US citizen but no pension so dependent upon us for support), SWMBO 49 and self 67 with UK OAP plus a couple of piddly little pensions totalling £250. At our ages, we could not afford to get it wrong. We bought wisely (both house and car) so that we could live within our means and we did!. After about 9 months, our solicitor put SWMBO's name forward to a friend who was involved with setting up a language school. SWMBO is a licensed trilingual (English, Spanish, French) translator/interpreter, amongst other things) so she took the job. We can now afford to live even more comfortably and even have two holidays a year.

WE had already done the adventure thing


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## Pesky Wesky

Anciana said:


> Honestly, I don't care about choosing right. I'd rather have an adventure, try on different countries, different people, different lifestyles.
> 
> But it is not about me. My advice was to a person who - as it appears - runs FROM something, hasn't done enough research to know how difficult it is to get a job in Spain, even in big cities, and dreams of living -and working - among natives in the boonies.
> 
> That would be fine and dandy if she could afford to loose her capital... and were prepared for that, having a plan B and C for a good measure. Her is not a situation for cutting any ties and committing to Spain, so I worry.


Who are you taking about?
It can' be the OP. Poor thing has only posted one short post.


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## Anciana

Pesky Wesky said:


> Who are you taking about?
> It can' be the OP. Poor thing has only posted one short post.


Of course, Pesky Wesky, I might be wrong jumping to conclusions. But "new start", and a willingness (or at least contemplating) to risk all to hide in the boonies, foreign to boot, sound at least a tad desperate to me. Not like a joyfull anticipation.


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## Horlics

Well remember the guy who was greeted at Luton airport on the day restrictions were lifted.....

Ignore the title, but you will see what he earns. I had to Google for this but I had heard an interview he did on BBC radio a few weeks ago.

Believe the hype.

First Romanian to arrive in Britain Victor Spirescu reveals why he's had enough | Daily Mail Online



oronero said:


> Don't believe the hype!
> 
> I recently saw similar claims but referring to Portuguese 'brick layers in the UK'. When looking into this further the various sources contradicted one another. It became apparent that the figure was what the agencies who were supplying this 'short-term demand' were being paid for the foreign-supplied workers. The Portuguese brick-layers themselves were paid significantly less than that sum.
> 
> Just to bring a sense of norm to this, a qualified high street solicitor can expect to earn approx. £35K per annum outside of London, which works out at about £135 per day. I am very sceptical that an unskilled, unestablished foreign worker can earn £280 per day, if one does exist than he or she are extremely lucky and certainly not the norm.
> 
> Dubious headlines like this is what causes the misery around the world with people seeking a 'new prosperous life in the UK', where many of them only get as far as Calais and have an existence worse than a cockroach!


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## oronero

Horlics said:


> Well remember the guy who was greeted at Luton airport on the day restrictions were lifted.....
> 
> Ignore the title, but you will see what he earns. I had to Google for this but I had heard an interview he did on BBC radio a few weeks ago.
> 
> Believe the hype.
> 
> First Romanian to arrive in Britain Victor Spirescu reveals why he's had enough | Daily Mail Online


So his first 4 day job paid £60, he earned £1300/month from another which he later upgraded to £2000/month. Eventually he started fitting ventillation equipment and charging between £250-300 per day as a self employed worker.

As you should be aware self employed people have their costs which need to come out from their day rate, it does not mean that they take that sort of money home each and every day.

Being self employed myself there can be periods of no work to do and nobody pays you when you are sick or when you are on holiday. Plus every now and then you can end up with bad debter's who can owe you several hundred pounds....it happens.

About 17 years ago I was also billing myself out at approximately £300 per day, however I rarely worked more than 4 days per week and after paying costs incurred in running my business I was probably only earning a bit more than the average wage... albeit in 3/4 days compared to others who had to do a 5 day week.

I now do something completely different.


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## PS51

If its in the Daily Mail. . .It must be right.


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## zx10r-Al

There is another way, you won't ever be rich, but you will be fit, healthy and happy. Buy a finca and work it!
I know a few people who have bought a finca, they harvest rainwater when they can, have a simple solar system for electricity and live a basic, off-grid life with no worries. Other than the cost of the food they can't produce themselves, and nominal land tax, they almost live for free. Milk from their goats, eggs from their chickens, growing fruit and veg, plus they farm the olives. Depending upon the quality and the harvest, one friend can earn around €2000 from his olive harvest, which more than covers his €20-something annual land tax. If you over-produce something you grow particularly well, you can trade it with others for things you need. The pruning gives them wood for heating and cooking, they wash their clothes by hand, and they are the happiest ex-pats I have ever come across in Spain. Too many people are blinkered into thinking that you must have a well paid job because you must buy a big house, and you must have gadgets, and you must have nice furniture, and you must have a newer car than your friends and neighbours and the list goes on.


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## oronero

zx10r-Al said:


> There is another way, you won't ever be rich, but you will be fit, healthy and happy. Buy a finca and work it!
> I know a few people who have bought a finca, they harvest rainwater when they can, have a simple solar system for electricity and live a basic, off-grid life with no worries. Other than the cost of the food they can't produce themselves, and nominal land tax, they almost live for free. Milk from their goats, eggs from their chickens, growing fruit and veg, plus they farm the olives. Depending upon the quality and the harvest, one friend can earn around €2000 from his olive harvest, which more than covers his €20-something annual land tax. If you over-produce something you grow particularly well, you can trade it with others for things you need. The pruning gives them wood for heating and cooking, they wash their clothes by hand, and they are the happiest ex-pats I have ever come across in Spain. Too many people are blinkered into thinking that you must have a well paid job because you must buy a big house, and you must have gadgets, and you must have nice furniture, and you must have a newer car than your friends and neighbours and the list goes on.


Exactly!

One set of my grandparents lived exactly like that, they managed to raise seven children....try doing that on a just above average wage.

There's more to life than money.


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## mrypg9

oronero said:


> Exactly!
> 
> One set of my grandparents lived exactly like that, they managed to raise seven children....try doing that on a just above average wage.
> 
> There's more to life than money.


My dad died and left my mum a widow when there was nothing other than National Assistance which she was too proud to accept. So we moved back in with my grandmother and mum went out cleaning other people's floors which she did for a pittance until well into her seventies. We had very few luxuries but ate well from our own garden, eggs from our chickens and a lot of meat and fish from our uncles with shotguns. We had firewood brought to us by same uncles. 
I had a safe, secure childhood and grew up hardy and healthy.
But I wish my mother and many other people I knew then had had a better life free from worrying how to pay the next bill. 
There is imo nothing particularly good or praiseworthy about leading a simple life if that is what you choose. The important word is choice. Many people have no choice other than to live from hand to mouth, day by day.
I think living a quiet, simple life is one we should all aspire to. We have found the right balance now in our life here after a very hectic business and professional life in the UK. We're both past doing heavy work of any kind and although I agree with you, money isn't everything, those trying to live without it would have something to say about that rather trite saying.
It's up to each and everyone of us to choose our lifestyle but it has to be one that's affordable. It's interesting that many of the people I've known who chose the simple life have done so after years of holding down well-paid jobs which gave them the means to live simply.
So yes, you are right. Money isn't everything. Too many people however get the old saying 'Money is the root of all evil' wrong.
The correct saying is *'The love* of money is the root of all evil'.
Some difference


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## alborino

Mary puts it well I think but just to add that if you want your life style to be sustainable you are going to have to successfully breed (or have a suicide pack when life gets too much). And having children will demand a certain money based economy in Spain. And if you breed successfully then you will need to restrain the kids to continue the dream. I'm thinking if you really wanted to escape it all there might be better options than Spain 

Bit tongue in cheek of course but I'm certainly hoping to move towards a less money based life style in southern Spain but as Mary says I do that having the warm security of a pension and property ownership 

I certainly wouldn't want to be cleaning floors or need to milk goats in the morning before my cup of tea once I'm 70.


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## mrypg9

The other thing I should have said is that as I remember it the burden of keeping house and home together with very little money usually fell hardest on the shoulders of women.
My mum and gran used to do the washing by hand....it took three days to get the washing out of the way!
Monday was wash day itself....memories of steam-filled scullery with sinks full of very hot water, scrubbing brush and board, bag of blue, starch...wringing out heavy water-soaked sheets by hand then putting them through the mangle. Tuesday was ironing day, with flat irons heated on the open fire in winter, on the gas hob in summer. Wednesday airing day.
All ths assuming the weather was dry..
Never mind 'Fifty Shades of Grey;, most women back then were positively orgasmic to get a washing machine, even if it were only one of those single tubs with no rinse or spin facility.
After doing all this, chopping wood for the fire, cleaning the house without such devices as a hoover - my mum used to hang our carpets on the line and beat them viciously with a cane device, of which I used to be very afraid my mum would sit down for five minutes for a cuppa before going out shopping for our dinner - no weekly shop then, no fridge.
And all this after coming home after getting up to work in the early hours...
I think mum and millions like her would have preferred a less simple life....

We don't need to go to extremes to live well. Then remember the millions whose lives are so simple that they are very short.

We are so lucky to be able to choose, some of us.


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## tonymar

zx10r-Al said:


> There is another way, you won't ever be rich, but you will be fit, healthy and happy. Buy a finca and work it!
> I know a few people who have bought a finca, they harvest rainwater when they can, have a simple solar system for electricity and live a basic, off-grid life with no worries. Other than the cost of the food they can't produce themselves, and nominal land tax, they almost live for free. Milk from their goats, eggs from their chickens, growing fruit and veg, plus they farm the olives. Depending upon the quality and the harvest, one friend can earn around €2000 from his olive harvest, which more than covers his €20-something annual land tax. If you over-produce something you grow particularly well, you can trade it with others for things you need. The pruning gives them wood for heating and cooking, they wash their clothes by hand, and they are the happiest ex-pats I have ever come across in Spain. Too many people are blinkered into thinking that you must have a well paid job because you must buy a big house, and you must have gadgets, and you must have nice furniture, and you must have a newer car than your friends and neighbours and the list goes on.



Great positive post !!

money isn't every thing 

Tony Agost Alicante


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## Pesky Wesky

I think to get this



Anciana said:


> Honestly, I don't care about choosing right. I'd rather have an adventure, try on different countries, different people, different lifestyles.
> 
> But it is not about me. My advice was to a person who - as it appears - runs FROM something, hasn't done enough research to know how difficult it is to get a job in Spain, even in big cities, and dreams of living -and working - among natives in the boonies.
> 
> That would be fine and dandy if she could afford to loose her capital... and were prepared for that, having a plan B and C for a good measure. Her is not a situation for cutting any ties and committing to Spain, so I worry.


from this



astraone said:


> Hello,
> 
> I was looking at moving to Spain from the uk, I am in the process of selling my house here and am looking to live amongst the Locals in a rural setting , I will need some kind of employment but will also have 60k from. The house sale.
> 
> Is it possible to make the move there?


is a lot of assuming, and you can bet that some is right but some will be wrong, like that you assume the poster is female when actually he's male.

People want advice; they don't want you to make a up a life story for them, so perhaps a little more benefit of the doubt could be doled out


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## Anciana

Ah, the lure of a simple life. But, as Mary so eloquently explained, an overabundance of a non-cash life, is neither simple nor particularly pleasant. A few years ago (2010-2012) I worked among the Q'eqchi' Maya of southern Belize (formerly a British Honduras), invited by one of their organizations to help them fight in courts Belize government, who was giving away their communal lands to oil companies, who lined the government's officials' pockets.

The Q'eqchi' still live mostly non-cash, though mostly not by choice. They would take any jobs offered, even with the oil companies, no matter how badly paid, and how rarely they would be offered it. But most would not sign consent to resign from their lands, and they would not stop doing their subsistence farming.

They would walk for miles on foot through the jungle, to plant their milpas with corn and beans, to manage them and to bring the harvest - on their backs. 

Q'eqchi' women would plant beans and some vegetables on plots closer to the village, while they took care of children. Many q'eqchi' women were dying in childbirth - getting to the nurse walking for miles on foot to the nearest school bus (that the tribe had to run themselves, trying to get at least some of their children an education - not cheap, especially if you have no cash to pay for it, no cash to buy school uniforms, no cash for the bus the children must take) is hardly doable when you are in labor. 

They had no running water, no electricity, many did not even have latrines. All they had was plenty of unpaid work, and very very little of the paid variety. Always risking starving if the harvest was less than satisfactory, always facing the dilemma, whether to sell part of their harvest to get some necessary cash, and go hungry for days or weeks before the next harvest, or eat, but not to be able to send even one child to school. A healthy, desirable simple life?


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## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> . Money isn't everything. Too many people however get the old saying 'Money is the root of all evil' wrong.
> The correct saying is *'The love* of money is the root of all evil'.
> Some difference


Huh, is that right?
I had no idea that that was the real saying.
That's 2 things I've learnt today and it's only 12 o' clock?
(The other was that apparently the "ez" ending in Spanish in similar to the "'o" or "Mac" or "son" as it originally signified the relationships in a family as in son of)


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## Anciana

Pesky Wesky said:


> I think to get this ...'from this...
> is a lot of assuming, and you can bet that some is right but some will be wrong, like that you assume the poster is female when actually he's male.
> People want advice; they don't want you to make a up a life story for them, so perhaps a little more benefit of the doubt could be doled out


You are certainly right and I admitted as much, haven't I, that I was jumping to conclusions on a feeling, without sufficient data. 

As for the sex of a poster, well, I "ain't" a native English speaker. In Swedish a "human being" is a female (as a word: människa) and I sometimes tend to revert to calling a person "her" when I do not know the sex of that person. Not something a native English speaker would do. My bad.


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## Isobella

zx10r-Al said:


> There is another way, you won't ever be rich, but you will be fit, healthy and happy. Buy a finca and work it!
> I know a few people who have bought a finca, they harvest rainwater when they can, have a simple solar system for electricity and live a basic, off-grid life with no worries. Other than the cost of the food they can't produce themselves, and nominal land tax, they almost live for free. Milk from their goats, eggs from their chickens, growing fruit and veg, plus they farm the olives. Depending upon the quality and the harvest, one friend can earn around €2000 from his olive harvest, which more than covers his €20-something annual land tax. If you over-produce something you grow particularly well, you can trade it with others for things you need. The pruning gives them wood for heating and cooking, they wash their clothes by hand, and they are the happiest ex-pats I have ever come across in Spain. Too many people are blinkered into thinking that you must have a well paid job because you must buy a big house, and you must have gadgets, and you must have nice furniture, and you must have a newer car than your friends and neighbours and the list goes on.


You should speak to some who had no choice but to live this kind of life. There was grinding poverty. That is why many couldn't wait to sell off their finca when tourism arrived. Someone wrote a book about rural poverty in Spain but I can't remember the title. Ok for some expat playing at it if they have a nest egg but imagine having kids who need money for school book/trips etc. not the kind of life I would want when growing older, not necessarily healthier either. A brisk walk along the paseo would do more good


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## Pesky Wesky

Anciana said:


> You are certainly right and I admitted as much, haven't I, that I was jumping to conclusions on a feeling, without sufficient data.
> 
> As for the sex of a poster, well, I "ain't" a native English speaker. In Swedish a "human being" is a female (as a word) and I sometimes tend to revert to calling a person "her" when I do not know the sex of that person. Not something a native English speaker would do. My bad.


Your English is, as all can see, excellent 
A theme for another thread could be what is it exactly that the Swedes get so right when learning/ teaching English. Is English indeed taught, or do you just absorb it through your skin?!!!


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## Pesky Wesky

zx10r-Al said:


> There is another way, you won't ever be rich, but you will be fit, healthy and happy. Buy a finca and work it!
> I know a few people who have bought a finca, they harvest rainwater when they can, have a simple solar system for electricity and live a basic, off-grid life with no worries. Other than the cost of the food they can't produce themselves, and nominal land tax, they almost live for free. Milk from their goats, eggs from their chickens, growing fruit and veg, plus they farm the olives. Depending upon the quality and the harvest, one friend can earn around €2000 from his olive harvest, which more than covers his €20-something annual land tax. If you over-produce something you grow particularly well, you can trade it with others for things you need. The pruning gives them wood for heating and cooking, they wash their clothes by hand, and they are the happiest ex-pats I have ever come across in Spain. Too many people are blinkered into thinking that you must have a well paid job because you must buy a big house, and you must have gadgets, and you must have nice furniture, and you must have a newer car than your friends and neighbours and the list goes on.


As there has been a bit of a negative reaction to your post (or should I say realistic ) I'd like to redress the balance and say that if somebody *chooses to live this life* and* realises that it's not a soft option* there's every chance that they will be more successful than the person who wants to open a bar in Benidorm or the Canaries!


----------



## Lynn R

zx10r-Al said:


> There is another way, you won't ever be rich, but you will be fit, healthy and happy. Buy a finca and work it!
> I know a few people who have bought a finca, they harvest rainwater when they can, have a simple solar system for electricity and live a basic, off-grid life with no worries. Other than the cost of the food they can't produce themselves, and nominal land tax, they almost live for free. Milk from their goats, eggs from their chickens, growing fruit and veg, plus they farm the olives. Depending upon the quality and the harvest, one friend can earn around €2000 from his olive harvest, which more than covers his €20-something annual land tax. If you over-produce something you grow particularly well, you can trade it with others for things you need. The pruning gives them wood for heating and cooking, they wash their clothes by hand, and they are the happiest ex-pats I have ever come across in Spain. Too many people are blinkered into thinking that you must have a well paid job because you must buy a big house, and you must have gadgets, and you must have nice furniture, and you must have a newer car than your friends and neighbours and the list goes on.


Many years ago, I used to know a community of people who lived in this way in the UK. They were good friends, and in fact some of them did the building work to restore our old cottage (the old man who ran the village sub Post Office just across the road came to have a look after we moved in, and said "Eee, did them hippies do all this? You wouldn't credit it, would you?".

They were, pretty much, self-sufficient but when it came to sending their children to school, or they or their children needing medical treatment, you can't very well offer to trade a dozen eggs or a few kilos of produce for that, can you? Somebody else's taxes have to pay for it.


----------



## oronero

I see nothing wrong with the ideal life that *zx10r-AI *writes about, my maternal Grandparents lived like this. Yes it was a hard life for my mother and siblings growing up, they were either at school or doing chores with one or the other parent. They had no ipads, iphones or computer games, or fast food to eat! 

Like *zx10r-AI* I have a similar dream, though I will do a few hours a week doing what I currently do to keep the money trickling in...after all, if I can get away with doing a days work per week which, is the equivalent of an average weeks salary I have the best of both worlds, money with time for living life.


----------



## astraone

Anciana said:


> Of course, Pesky Wesky, I might be wrong jumping to conclusions. But "new start", and a willingness (or at least contemplating) to risk all to hide in the boonies, foreign to boot, sound at least a tad desperate to me. Not like a joyfull anticipation.


Hello,

My new start is not about running away from things but hopefully a more relaxed lifestyle,better climate,diet etc,I am not that interested in the UK anymore and would like a local rural community to live in, I don't necessarily want a big house etc etc.


----------



## Lynn R

astraone said:


> Hello,
> 
> My new start is not about running away from things but hopefully a more relaxed lifestyle,better climate,diet etc,I am not that interested in the UK anymore and would like a local rural community to live in, I don't necessarily want a big house etc etc.


But, as you said you would need to work, what kind of work do you envisage being able to find there?


----------



## astraone

Lynn R said:


> But, as you said you would need to work, what kind of work do you envisage being able to find there?


I am going to research this more

Regards David


----------



## zx10r-Al

There is a huge difference between those who start with nothing and are forced to live a simple life, and those who start with a lump sum and choose to live a simple life. The limp sum of money mentioned would easily be enough to buy a finca large enough to provide an income from the harvest, and thus provide a sustained and simple way of life Hey, there may even be enough cash left over to have luxuries like a washing machine and fridge, possibly even a constant water supply. The difference is when you have nothing, you need an amount of cash regularly just to pay for a roof over your head. That roof that takes most of your money won't leave you much, if anything for food, and you certainly won't have enough land to grow some, but having land and a favourable climate gives you the option to grow your own, and the surplus can be traded.


----------



## astraone

zx10r-Al said:


> There is a huge difference between those who start with nothing and are forced to live a simple life, and those who start with a lump sum and choose to live a simple life. The limp sum of money mentioned would easily be enough to buy a finca large enough to provide an income from the harvest, and thus provide a sustained and simple way of life Hey, there may even be enough cash left over to have luxuries like a washing machine and fridge, possibly even a constant water supply. The difference is when you have nothing, you need an amount of cash regularly just to pay for a roof over your head. That roof that takes most of your money won't leave you much, if anything for food, and you certainly won't have enough land to grow some, but having land and a favourable climate gives you the option to grow your own, and the surplus can be traded.


Hello,

I like the positivity in you reply,I came here for that there is far too much negativity in the UK and that is just another reason to leave it, I am a Technician here and when I repair someone's golf caddy and meet the customer personally I will always try and do that bit more for them a NO extra cost , I wish some other people were like this ,I get a great feeling from doing it and that is why customers keep coming back .


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## extranjero

Washing machine, fridge, constant water supply- luxuries? 
Maybe before 1960, definitely not now!


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## tonymar

astraone said:


> Hello,
> 
> I like the positivity in you reply,I came here for that there is far too much negativity in the UK and that is just another reason to leave it, I am a Technician here and when I repair someone's golf caddy and meet the customer personally I will always try and do that bit more for them a NO extra cost , I wish some other people were like this ,I get a great feeling from doing it and that is why customers keep coming back .


I agree , it is good to hear something positive.

You only live once , best to try and fail than not try at all !

If it is your dream to live in Spain ( as it was for most people on this forum ) then go for it !!!!

Tony Agost Alicante


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## oronero

zx10r-Al said:


> There is a huge difference between those who start with nothing and are forced to live a simple life, and those who start with a lump sum and choose to live a simple life.


True but lack of funds can be overcome, it just takes much longer but there is generally a few interesting tales to tell about the journey getting there. Many people have nothing following business failure, divorce / separation their lives are certainly not over, though in the immediate aftermath they may feel that way. Many get themselves back into a position they were in previously some even in a better position.

As some have already alluded to the true adventure of life, it is overcoming the adversity and the unknown, with hopefully a positive outcome. Even if one never succeeds and many do not, surely one really knows that one is alive and sensing living rather than the person who exists in their bubble and goes through the routine motions of life. 

Each to their own but I want adventure, tales and possibly the fairy-tale ending from my life...anything else just doesn't do it for me and if I don't get there, well at least I tried rather than doing a mundane job for a mundane wage, especially given that I have no dependents.




zx10r-Al said:


> The difference is when you have nothing, you need an amount of cash regularly just to pay for a roof over your head. That roof that takes most of your money won't leave you much, if anything for food, and you certainly won't have enough land to grow some, but having land and a favourable climate gives you the option to grow your own, and the surplus can be traded.


Just because you have nothing doesn't mean that the story is over, one can dream and plod away in the right direction, you never know along the way things may change, never lose hope. 

All things said though it is better to have some sort of contingency plan and most of the prep should be done in an environment that you are familiar with rather than on foreign soils with little idea of how things actually operate there. That in itself make you aware of what could go wrong and possibly gives you an idea as to how to overcome that.


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## mrypg9

tonymar said:


> Great positive post !!
> 
> money isn't every thing
> 
> Tony Agost Alicante


Try living without it!


As many do and not through choice.


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## mrypg9

astraone said:


> Hello,
> 
> I like the positivity in you reply,I came here for that there is far too much negativity in the UK and that is just another reason to leave it, I am a Technician here and when I repair someone's golf caddy and meet the customer personally I will always try and do that bit more for them a NO extra cost , I wish some other people were like this ,I get a great feeling from doing it and that is why customers keep coming back .


This word 'negativity' tends to get bandied about a lot. Your last paragraph is a buit negative Lots of people give good customer service in the UK and Spain.

I think you will find there is a lot more genuine negativity here in Spain, especially amongst the 26% with no job, those with a job and low wages and long hours and most of all amongst the 60% plus of young people with no job, no future and no hope of one.
When you speak of 'negativity' in the UK are you perhaps thinking of frustration or the vague dissatisfaction with their lifestyle that some people seem to have?
I have seen zero evidence of this 'negativity' in the UK. We ran businesses, I worked in education, everyone I knew was employed and content. No-one I knew sat on their backside and moaned about life, they were too busy getting on with living.

There will be little if any work repairing golf caddies in remote villages, sadly. You need cash to play golf, cash and leisure. 
I agree with you, you need to do a lot of research. Why not take a three or even six month break and actually try living somewhere away from city life? Even if you find your plans aren't feasible you'll have had an enjoyable experience. 

But remember that as Lynn says even those living this mythical simple life need hospitals and roads to travel on to get there so bear that in mind as you never know what life can throw at you. 
And one person's simple life ultimately depends on others staying in the 'rat race'.


----------



## Lynn R

extranjero said:


> Washing machine, fridge, constant water supply- luxuries?
> Maybe before 1960, definitely not now!


Too right. My mother brought up 3 children and looked after my great-grandmother and never had a washing machine, nor a fridge, until after I left home to get married. We didn't have a bathroom or an inside toilet either. Perhaps that's why a life without these things holds no attraction for me now as it's not a novelty, been there, done that. I never wanted my mother's life and I don't want it now either.


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## mrypg9

Lynn R said:


> Too right. My mother brought up 3 children and looked after my great-grandmother and never had a washing machine, nor a fridge, until after I left home to get married. We didn't have a bathroom or an inside toilet either. Perhaps that's why a life without these things holds no attraction for me now as it's not a novelty, been there, done that. I never wanted my mother's life and I don't want it now either.


I have to smile sometimes when I read pieces in The Guardian (it's always The Guardian, occasionally the Sunday Times) about 'simple rural living'. Some writers prattle on as if they had discovered log fires, grow your own veg and seeing grass instead of concrete outside your front door.
My mum would be surprised to learn that her simple lifestyle is now very much in vogue, especially amongst sections of the professional middle-class. She baked her own bread and cakes, killed, plucked, singed and roasted her own fowls because she had to. That's what poor people did in those days. 
She also wore hand-me down clothes from charity as did I but I don't think the get-away-from-it all crowd would take simple living that far.
Don't get me wrong. Living in a plain but sufficient way is very desirable and would be good for most of us, but it has to be seen for what it is, a lifestyle choice mainly for those who can afford to 'downsize'. Like you, I do not see my mother's life through rose-tinted specs. It was a hard life, with much uncertainty and worry. 
When I went to University, for the first time in my life I was able to have a bath, whenever I wanted and to lie in hot foamy scented water up to my chin. 
That was a real luxury after eighteen years of tin baths before the fire as a child and as I got older strip washes in kettle-heated water in a freezing bathroom.
Even now I think of having a hot bath as a real pleasure to be experienced.
The main point as I see it is to take nothing for granted and be aware that very many people are literally dying for our privileged lifestyle.


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## oronero

Why is it that some people relate 'a simple life' with 'living without modernity'? I'm thinking more 'The Good Life' rather '2000 bc', though I do like pretty girls. I'd rather live like that in a generally warmer climate than what is available in the UK.

To me the idea of a 'simple life is living within my means, very little reliance upon credit, to consume within your financial means, to do away with what one thinks is superfluous in life...no need to go live in a cave without any modern appliances! 

What does a 'simple life' conjure up to others?


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## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> Huh, is that right?
> I had no idea that that was the real saying.
> )


Yup. Timothy 6:10, King James' Version.

Another frequent mistake is 'far from the maddening crowd'....it should be 'far from the madding crowd' and is a line from my favourite poem, Gray's 'Elegy in a Country Churchyard'.

'Madding' apparently means festive, gay(in the old sense). There's a square in Norwich called Maddermarket, where fairs were held.

Just thought I'd throw that in for good measure


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## extranjero

And ..All that glisters is not gold?


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## Lynn R

oronero said:


> Why is it that some people relate 'a simple life' with 'living without modernity'? I'm thinking more 'The Good Life' rather '2000 bc', though I do like pretty girls. I'd rather live like that in a generally warmer climate than what is available in the UK.
> 
> To me the idea of a 'simple life is living within my means, very little reliance upon credit, to consume within your financial means, to do away with what one thinks is superfluous in life...no need to go live in a cave without any modern appliances!
> 
> What does a 'simple life' conjure up to others?


Well, I definitely live a simpler life here now than I did when I was working in the UK. We don't have a car, nor a dishwasher, because we don't need them. We don't feel we need some things which other people who have moved here often like to have, such as air-conditioning or a swimming pool. However, we probably spend money on some other things that others might find unnecessary or extravagant, we all have different priorities after all. Living within our means, definitely, and we don't owe anybody a cent. I don't feel the need to be going out and buying things all the time any more, in order to "cheer myself up" or because I need a treat after a bad day.


----------



## mrypg9

oronero said:


> Why is it that some people relate 'a simple life' with 'living without modernity'? I'm thinking more 'The Good Life' rather '2000 bc', though I do like pretty girls. I'd rather live like that in a generally warmer climate than what is available in the UK.
> 
> To me the idea of a 'simple life is living within my means, very little reliance upon credit, to consume within your financial means, to do away with what one thinks is superfluous in life...no need to go live in a cave without any modern appliances!
> 
> What does a 'simple life' conjure up to others?


What you said. It's the media and the trendies that have changed the meaning.
We lead a simple life. Our house is old, as are our cars, we don't go out much, we enjoy 'simple' pleasures like reading, listening to music and quality radio and tv. 
But I would be a liar if I pretended that our life is lacking in mod cons. 
And yes, the warmer climate is a real bonus. We're grateful that we can afford our simple but comfortable life in Spain.


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## Pesky Wesky

oronero said:


> Why is it that some people relate 'a simple life' with 'living without modernity'? I'm thinking more 'The Good Life' rather '2000 bc', though I do like pretty girls. I'd rather live like that in a generally warmer climate than what is available in the UK.
> 
> To me the idea of a 'simple life is living within my means, very little reliance upon credit, to consume within your financial means, to do away with what one thinks is superfluous in life...no need to go live in a cave without any modern appliances!
> 
> What does a 'simple life' conjure up to others?


I don't know why some posters imagine simple life to be negative, full of hardship, and being financially strapped
But as you say, what does "simple" mean?
To me it does not mean going back neither to my mother nor my grandmother's way of life, but it would mean not having things that I personally deem to be superfulous. I might not have a car for example preferring to use public transport, shared car services or hiring if necessary. Others would think a car essential. I could easily do with out the telly. I'd like to have some kind of internet device, but I wouldn't need the whole techie range of tablet, smart phone and PC, but I don't have that now either. 
I think most people tend to mean not going out a lot to restaurants, concerts, cinema, eating fresh food not pre cooked, maybe homegrown, not travelling to exotic desinations, that kind of thing, don't they?
But it perhaps indicates an attitude as well, thinking about what you have now, and enjoying it, not what you want to acquire in the future and how much you'd like to have it.

It's also interesting to consider why so many people are eager to tell what a simple life they are living (which is usually because they are financially secure, so they are living simply off a big comfy sofa, with the car and the house paid for the designer clothes already in the wardrobe). Are we supposed to be proud of this with the most "simple" life style "winning"?


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## Lynn R

Pesky Wesky said:


> I don't know why some posters imagine simple life to be negative, full of hardship, and being financially strapped


I think it arises when we start hearing how blissfully happy some expats are here, living without mains supplies and washing their clothes by hand. No doubt they are, but the thought isn't appealing to some of us - no more than that.


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## Pesky Wesky

Lynn R said:


> I think it arises when we start hearing how blissfully happy some expats are here, living without mains supplies and washing their clothes by hand. No doubt they are, but the thought isn't appealing to some of us - no more than that.


This thread, it seemed to me, had become rather critical of those who may want to do that. It appears that they are thought to be innocent and or uninformed. That may be the case, but I don't see why it can't be the opposite too.
If someone wants to discover the joys of doing the washing by hand, then why not?
The benefits include building up arm muscles, especially when doing sheets 

Although, when "The Simple Life" was mentioned by the OP and others I have no doubt they were not talking about turning the clock back and living in pre washing machine, pre mobile conditions. Neither does it necessarily entail working the land. I think they just meant whittling away a few superflous 21st century things and ideas


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## Justina

My long dead mil had a washing machine, but didn't believe in them, so would scrub away on a washboard every week,cleanliness being next to godliness, and only then would they go in the machine.


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## alborino

One odd thing about this is that the simple rural life - living largely off the land (not saying the OP asked for that) is a real possibility in the UK and almost impossible in Spain - for any substantial period and assuming you're non-spanish. Even near our pad in Hampshire there's a small holder who lives in a caravan with a nice side line in chicken and duck eggs (we still leave the money in a bucket) and another couple have chickens and pigs (although I'm sure their favourites - salt and pepper won't end up on a butchers slab) who do a good trade in country produce. 

But I guess that big yellow ball in the sky is not seen too often by crofter's in Scotland for example


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## Pesky Wesky

alborino said:


> One odd thing about this is that the simple rural life - living largely off the land (not saying the OP asked for that) is a real possibility in the UK and almost impossible in Spain - for any substantial period and assuming you're non-spanish.


Why's that?


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## zx10r-Al

oronero said:


> Why is it that some people relate 'a simple life' with 'living without modernity'? I'm thinking more 'The Good Life' rather '2000 bc', though I do like pretty girls. I'd rather live like that in a generally warmer climate than what is available in the UK.
> 
> To me the idea of a 'simple life is living within my means, very little reliance upon credit, to consume within your financial means, to do away with what one thinks is superfluous in life...no need to go live in a cave without any modern appliances!
> 
> What does a 'simple life' conjure up to others?


We have named our farm 'Good Life Farm', as that's how we want to live. We don't want to wear fig leaves, make our own candles etc, but we do want to generate our own electricity, barter as much as possible, live off the land and not have to work to make others rich. We will still have washing machines, hifi etc, because we already own them, but we're not going to rip out a perfectly functioning kitchen simply because its old or we don't like the colour. We're very much against the consumerist society also, how things are designed to fail so you have to buy them again, the pressure to 'keep up with the Jones', having the latest of everything, when the thing you are about to throw into landfill has lots of life left in it, its just not the thing to have now. Energy companies changing more and more to consumers so they can give more money to investors and pensions, governments trying to claw as much of your money as they can. Greed is overtaking many people, they simply want your money, all of your money, and they treat life like a game of monopoly; the more money you have, the more successful you are. To me, the successful people in life are those who can live on next to nothing monetarily. Of course, not everyone thinks like me. There are those who have paid tens of thousands into pensions and investments, and they need money to circulate so they amass more for themselves.

To be honest, I can't be bothered going into all the little details about this, my posts have simply being to point out that with a small amount of capital, it is possible to buy somewhere to live, with enough land that you can sustain yourself without having to give up a huge chunk of your time/life working to make someone else rich. So unemployment figures are only relevant to those who want to work for others, if you have productive land and are able, that is your job.


----------



## tonymar

mrypg9 said:


> Try living without it!
> 
> 
> As many do and not through choice.


OK let me rephrase that

I in the uk I felt like it was all work and no play , earned reasonable money and spent it as quick !

Seemed much more materialistic there, trying to keep up with the Jonses , buying loads of stuff 

Here I ( we as a family ) dont have much money or stuff 

Happier --- YES , and I guess most people who are on this forum have stayed in Spain because they prefer the life here ,

So all I am saying is that if its someone dream to come to Spain , to live whatever type of life style -- good luck to them 

I am still here 12 years on and glad to see my Children grow up in such a nice place ! with out the ipads and prom nights , binge drinking etc!

Tony Agost Alicante


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## baldilocks

My Two penn'orth:

I was brought up in a house like Mrypg - no plumbing, no electricity, but we did have gas. Water came from a well but it was so hard it could only be used for drinking - any soap just turned to scum so we used rainwater collected off the roof for washing. No washing machine. water for washing was heated in a 'copper'. We did have a mangle and I was thrilled when I was old enough to be allowed to turn the handle (I had to stand on a chair to reach). We had a steam radio run on a couple of large batteries and a lead-acid accumulator that some guy used to come round each week and swap for a charged one.

Beds were warmed with a stone hot-water bottle, triangular in cross-section (it was marked on the outside as a 'foot-warmer'), not very big so you had to move it around a bit to warm the top part of the bed then move it down the bed little by little until there was some warmth throughout the bed. 

We rarely used the gaslight upstairs since you had to use a match to light the gas and that meant holding the lighted match near the mantle and if you accidentally caught the mantle it would fall apart so it was a candle to light the way to bed. Downstairs, it was luxury we had a control (rather like a light-switch) on the wall that operated a cable (like the brake cable on a bicycle called a Bowden cable) which went up to the top of the light fitting and turned the gas on and off. The first movement of the 'switch' turned on the gas, pressing it down hard made contacts with a battery that caused an element to glow and light the gas.

Toileting facilities comprised a bucket outside with a wooden board over the top and a bum-sized hole in it. As a kid it was way too big for me so I had to hold on like grime death to avoid falling in and ending up in the *&*&^%! For night usage we had a gazunder.


----------



## alborino

Pesky Wesky said:


> Why's that?


Because in the UK self employed costs very little and with a personal allowance you can earn the minimum without paying tax but still get pension years accumulating. And the support services are largely free as they are resident based. 

One route if you want to grow stuff in the UK is to talk to the allotment association. They have rural land that they need cultivated as if they don't it will be reclassified (was true just a few years back - may have changed or be regional). A guy in north hampshire grows (mainly spuds) on 2 acres like that ; hunts hares, rabbits, pheasant/patridge (the latter end of season as long as he shoots a few vermin to help the farmer), and he does some shoot beating/lookout), and a few other things. And he also services hunting guns which was his hobby. Don't get me wrong he owns a big house and a 4x4 

ps He was telling us that the guys shooting paid £1200 a day for the best pitches. He estimated the partridge they shot that day were worth £40 but most just left them behind


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## zx10r-Al

When I had my modest 3 bed end of terrace house, living alone, working long hours so only in the house for an hour either side of a nights sleep, it was costing £1050 for mortgage, insurance, gas, electric and council tax. On top of that was food and running a car. I had to work 150 hours a month just to break even. The next 100 hours were for things to make me feel better about my miserable life. Now I only need to earn €1200 a year for my bills, work on my own land when I need to, not when I'm told to, that's a hell of a difference.


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## alborino

zx10r-Al said:


> When I had my modest 3 bed end of terrace house, living alone, working long hours so only in the house for an hour either side of a nights sleep, it was costing £1050 for mortgage, insurance, gas, electric and council tax. On top of that was food and running a car. I had to work 150 hours a month just to break even. The next 100 hours were for things to make me feel better about my miserable life. Now I only need to earn €1200 a year for my bills, work on my own land when I need to, not when I'm told to, that's a hell of a difference.


Yup I know what you mean the UK is a living hell and Spain has countryside paved in gold, free healthcare, free pensions, free autonomo, free ................


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## Pesky Wesky

alborino said:


> Because in the UK self employed costs very little and with a personal allowance you can earn the minimum without paying tax but still get pension years accumulating. And the support services are largely free as they are resident based.
> 
> One route if you want to grow stuff in the UK is to talk to the allotment association. They have rural land that they need cultivated as if they don't it will be reclassified (was true just a few years back - may have changed or be regional). A guy in north hampshire grows (mainly spuds) on 2 acres like that ; hunts hares, rabbits, pheasant/patridge (the latter end of season as long as he shoots a few vermin to help the farmer), and he does some shoot beating/lookout), and a few other things. And he also services hunting guns which was his hobby. Don't get me wrong he owns a big house and a 4x4
> 
> ps He was telling us that the guys shooting paid £1200 a day for the best pitches. He estimated the partridge they shot that day were worth £40 but most just left them behind


Oh you're talking about tax and stuff, not the tilling of the land so to speak, although I don't understand why you'd need to be registered as self employed? Surely that would only be if you had a business of some kind? I wouldn't presume that living the simple life includes running a business. And like I said before my own interpretation of living the "Simple Life" doesn't entail planting, sowing and reaping, nor even living in the country necessarily!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

alborino said:


> Yup I know what you mean the UK is a living hell and Spain has countryside paved in gold, free healthcare, free pensions, free autonomo, free ................


????
Why do you think that people wanting to live this kind of life in Spain think the above?
Is it just me? I can't see what one has to do with the other?
Why do you mention free healthcare, free autonomo? 
The same as any other immigrant from the UK people will need to have healthcare covered and if they want to be self employed they will need to pay the quotas, the same as builders, bar staff and retired police officers


----------



## jojo

The trouble with living the "simple life" is that in the olden days when everyone was having to live the simple life, there were no safety nets, no healthcare, no safeguards and you were very much on your own - great when things were going well, but not so great when things went wrong. Thats why things arent as simple these days - it didnt work and was risky, so nasty things like taxes, health insurances, infrastructures, labour saving devices, modern technology........ came along

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> ????
> Why do you think that people wanting to live this kind of life in Spain think the above?
> Is it just me? I can't see what one has to do with the other?
> Why do you mention free healthcare, free autonomo?
> The same as any other immigrant from the UK people will need to have healthcare covered and if they want to be self employed they will need to pay the quotas, the same as builders, bar staff and retired police officers


Well, if everyone went off to live in remote fincas away from the dreadful rat race there wouldn't be any police, doctors, nurses, teachers, road builders, bartenders etc.
So the simple life, whatever it means, is built on a lot of other people willing to get down and dirty in the mainstream economy.
I see two things here: choice and balance.
However you see your simple life, it will be enjoyable only if it is your free choice. Many people living without electricity, cars,fridges etc are doing so out of necessity. It's not a lifestyle choice for millions.
As for balance....not every worker in the UK endures a dull treadmill of a life. I didn't and neither did anyone we knew. Neither is everyone a compulsive consumer. Mind you, it's consumerism aka buying commodities produced for sale is what drives economies now and for the foreseeable future. Buying stuff from people in retail produced by workers in factories is the main thing to lift Spain's economy.
I have cars, soft sofas, fridge etc, all the mod cons of modern life. It's these that enable me to lead my life which I would describe as relaxed and simple.
Washing sheets by hand in 2015 isn't part of a simple life, it's unnecessary drudgery, taking up time that could be better spent on real simple pleasures like reading, conversation with friends or just contemplating the beauty that most of us are fortunate to be surrounded with in Spain.


----------



## baldilocks

jojo said:


> The trouble with living the "simple life" is that in the olden days when everyone was having to live the simple life, there were no safety nets, no healthcare, no safeguards and you were very much on your own - great when things were going well, but not so great when things went wrong. Thats why things arent as simple these days - *it didnt work* and was risky, so nasty things like taxes, health insurances, infrastructures, labour saving devices, modern technology........ came along
> 
> Jo xxx


Your authority for that statement? Since much of that was before your time, I would like to know where you get that idea.

The safety nets - everybody put away something for a "rainy day", it wasn't all spend today what you might earn tomorrow like it is today. 

No healthcare? No safeguards? There were Doctors long before the NHS, just as there were hospitals. There were "sick clubs". Christmas clubs, etc. and various other things into which you paid a small weekly amount against the day when something might happen - a form of insurance, even the Doctor had a similar scheme. 

Ever heard of the Hospital Savings Association? You paid in so many pence each week and when you needed to go into hospital, they would pay out a certain amount towards the support of you and your family. Glasses? you would get something towards the cost, etc etc

On your own? On the contrary, you were very rarely on your own. The old concept of neighbourliness made sure you were never on your own. I remember when, Mrs Walker from two doors away had to go into hospital, my Nan looked after her daughter (a year younger than me) and also made sure her husband had a hot meal every day. The same thing happens here in Spain even now, at least in the villages where there is still a sense of Community.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> Well, if everyone went off to live in remote fincas away from the dreadful rat race there wouldn't be any police, doctors, nurses, teachers, road builders, bartenders etc.
> So the simple life, whatever it means, is built on a lot of other people willing to get down and dirty in the mainstream economy.
> I see two things here: choice and balance.
> However you see your simple life, it will be enjoyable only if it is your free choice. Many people living without electricity, cars,fridges etc are doing so out of necessity. It's not a lifestyle choice for millions.
> As for balance....not every worker in the UK endures a dull treadmill of a life. I didn't and neither did anyone we knew. Neither is everyone a compulsive consumer. Mind you, it's consumerism aka buying commodities produced for sale is what drives economies now and for the foreseeable future. Buying stuff from people in retail produced by workers in factories is the main thing to lift Spain's economy.
> I have cars, soft sofas, fridge etc, all the mod cons of modern life. It's these that enable me to lead my life which I would describe as relaxed and simple.
> Washing sheets by hand in 2015 isn't part of a simple life, it's unnecessary drudgery, taking up time that could be better spent on real simple pleasures like reading, conversation with friends or just contemplating the beauty that most of us are fortunate to be surrounded with in Spain.


First of all I don't think your reply has anything to do with the questions I posted although you have quoted my post.

I am amazed at how narrow the view of the simple life is! However I seem to be in the minority so I'm willing to concede that my point of view may be the odd one out.


I've stated at least twice that the simple life does not mean working the land and giving up modern life necessarily, so I think we could be before a case of mistaken naming.


Simple life can be seen as paring down the possesions you have and also changing the way you distribute your money. You see, choosing to make different choices. Maybe it can be seen as a more austere life, a non ostentatious lifestyle.


I'm not for or against living off the land or living like our ancestors or living off grid or living in a comfy house with comfy furnishings or living in a semi, or living in a detached house. They all have advantages and disadvantages and all, as some have said, up to a point, are a matter of choice and what do I care what people decide to do?


I'm not saying I'm living this way or that way, or that this way is better than that way. I'm not making any judgements, just giving a few ideas. It would also seem that there's a line of thought that if you decide to strip yourself of modernity, if that's what you want to do that you somehow don't pay tax, or avoid being part of the system, is that right??? That's a given, is it? I'm half expecting someone to mention Hippies or, god forbid, The Tree Huggers  not forgetting the Crystal gazers because they all belong together, don't they

So, no doubt you are right, it is a matter of choice and balance and not everyone will want a house in the country and to live off the land just as not everyone wants a large detatched house, and that's hardly news, is it? Some people just have poor living conditions and others, from the comfort of their middle class living room decide to go back to nature.

By the way, if someone wants to wash sheets by hand, and let's not forget no one has said they do want to, well let them get on with it. I can't believe that they would be looked down upon on the basis of that choice, it's something to be criticised or made fun of??? It's not doing any harm as far as I can see. Some people thrive on filling their days with household tasks. Others fill their time by buying and selling imaginary stock on the markets and making lots of dosh at the expense of others. Seriously, I'd prefer the sheets, and I know what it's like to wash sheets by hand as my second rented house in Catalonia didn't have a washing machine.


----------



## alborino

Pesky Wesky said:


> ????
> Why do you think that people wanting to live this kind of life in Spain think the above?
> Is it just me? I can't see what one has to do with the other?
> Why do you mention free healthcare, free autonomo?
> The same as any other immigrant from the UK people will need to have healthcare covered and if they want to be self employed they will need to pay the quotas, the same as builders, bar staff and retired police officers


Pesky it was a reference to the quoted post. The poster infers that he was a very lower paid UK worker with a large mortgage in the UK. He then states that I quote "I only need to earn €1200 a year for my bills, work on my own land when I need to, not when I'm told to". 

Sounds marvelous  I referenced just some of the things that he benefited from in the UK that he seems to have ignored in consideration of his life in Spain.

My earlier post was just my opinion that Spain is not the only place you can lead the good life and gave an example of a person who actually did what many might see as a simpler life. 

I've enjoyed this thread especially as once the extremes had been addressed a number of posters started to define life styles that were possible. Hopefully there is more to come


----------



## jojo

baldilocks said:


> Your authority for that statement? Since much of that was before your time, I would like to know where you get that idea.
> 
> The safety nets - everybody put away something for a "rainy day", it wasn't all spend today what you might earn tomorrow like it is today.
> 
> No healthcare? No safeguards? There were Doctors long before the NHS, just as there were hospitals. There were "sick clubs". Christmas clubs, etc. and various other things into which you paid a small weekly amount against the day when something might happen - a form of insurance, even the Doctor had a similar scheme.
> 
> Ever heard of the Hospital Savings Association? You paid in so many pence each week and when you needed to go into hospital, they would pay out a certain amount towards the support of you and your family. Glasses? you would get something towards the cost, etc etc
> 
> On your own? On the contrary, you were very rarely on your own. The old concept of neighbourliness made sure you were never on your own. I remember when, Mrs Walker from two doors away had to go into hospital, my Nan looked after her daughter (a year younger than me) and also made sure her husband had a hot meal every day. The same thing happens here in Spain even now, at least in the villages where there is still a sense of Community.


..... and that "simple" way of life has evolved into the social welfare structure we have in the UK today - good and bad. But the difference is now we have people who dont wish to be part of it

Jo xxx


----------



## Pesky Wesky

> [B said:
> 
> 
> 
> alborino[/B];6492697
> 
> Sounds marvelous  I referenced just some of the things that he benefited from in the UK that he seems to have ignored in consideration of his life in Spain.
> 
> My earlier post was just my opinion that Spain is not the only place you can lead the good life and gave an example of a person who actually did what many might see as a simpler life.
> 
> I've enjoyed this thread especially as once the extremes had been addressed a number of posters started to define life styles that were possible. Hopefully there is more to come
Click to expand...

Well, maybe he has ignored them, but I woudn't bet on it. And I still don't get the autónomo bit and healthcare...He doesn't need to be self employed and can have private healthcare, can't he?
Also he is one example, but I think it's a mistake to lump people together and classify all people living in the country, growing their own food are like this, just as it's not wise or useful to group all living on the Costa Del Sol as one homogeneous group or all retired people living in Spain and so on.
I am, as I said earlier, surprised by what I've read here, and unfortunately don't think it's much help to the OP who I don't think at any point has talked about going to live off the land


----------



## baldilocks

jojo said:


> ..... and that "simple" way of life has evolved into the social welfare structure we have in the UK today - good and bad. But the difference is now we have people who dont wish to be part of it
> 
> Jo xxx


You still haven't answered the question. What is your authority, your statement of facts for saying that the "simple life" from before, did not work when, quite clearly, it was working? It is mostly the post Second World War generations that are making a mess of things, the easy money, hire purchase, the desire for more, for newer even when what one has is perfectly adequate for their needs. The need for big business to be forever selling the "newest" and "improved" model of something that was working quite adequately and the shallowness of people who are misled by the hype and have to have it, whether they need it or not. All the waste.

The simple life has nothing to do with standing down at the lavadero hand washing sheets but realising that greed and avarice are what is, in the main, responsible for much of what is wrong in the world today, then deciding to stand back and see what one can do about dropping out of that rat-race and relax, enjoy life and what is around them.


----------



## alborino

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well, maybe he has ignored them, but I woudn't bet on it. And I still don't get the autónomo bit and healthcare...He doesn't need to be self employed and can have private healthcare, can't he?
> Also he is one example, but I think it's a mistake to lump people together and classify all people living in the country, growing their own food are like this, just as it's not wise or useful to group all living on the Costa Del Sol as one homogeneous group or all retired people living in Spain and so on.
> I am, as I said earlier, surprised by what I've read here, and unfortunately don't think it's much help to the OP who I don't think at any point has talked about going to live off the land


I'm sorry Pesky you've totally lost me :confused2: I thought the conversations had evolved from the OPs original post but even he referred to rural life and it was established that work was an issue so he would need alternatives.

But sorry I'll get my coat :bolt:


----------



## jojo

lol, this is one of those threads thats gone off in all sorts of tangents and is almost at the point of no return. So, when this happens, its usually a good idea to revert back to the topic title and the original posters questions ?????????? ............or not????


> I was looking at moving to Spain from the uk, I am in the process of selling my house here and am looking to live amongst the Locals in a rural setting , I will need some kind of employment but will also have 60k from. The house sale.
> 
> Is it possible to make the move there?


Jo xxxx


----------



## Pesky Wesky

alborino said:


> I'm sorry Pesky you've totally lost me :confused2: I thought the conversations had evolved from the OPs original post but even he referred to rural life and it was established that work was an issue so he would need alternatives.
> 
> But sorry I'll get my coat :bolt:


On this thread the OP says he wants to live in a rural community/ a rural setting. Nothing about going back to the basics, living in the past, leaving modern life, being self sufficient, organics. I don't think the OP even mentions the fatal words "The simple life"!!
He does say he needs work (assuming it's a he), which therefore leads me to think he wants to live in a rural community and find work which he is very unlikely to find of course, but from that to a range of arguments against what some define as the simple life...
This thread seems to have got lost in the chicken shiit somewhere


----------



## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> First of all I don't think your reply has anything to do with the questions I posted although you have quoted my post.
> 
> I am amazed at how narrow the view of the simple life is! However I seem to be in the minority so I'm willing to concede that my point of view may be the odd one out.
> 
> 
> I've stated at least twice that the simple life does not mean working the land and giving up modern life necessarily, so I think we could be before a case of mistaken naming.
> 
> 
> Simple life can be seen as paring down the possesions you have and also changing the way you distribute your money. You see, choosing to make different choices. Maybe it can be seen as a more austere life, a non ostentatious lifestyle.
> 
> 
> I'm not for or against living off the land or living like our ancestors or living off grid or living in a comfy house with comfy furnishings or living in a semi, or living in a detached house. They all have advantages and disadvantages and all, as some have said, up to a point, are a matter of choice and what do I care what people decide to do?
> 
> 
> I'm not saying I'm living this way or that way, or that this way is better than that way. I'm not making any judgements, just giving a few ideas. It would also seem that there's a line of thought that if you decide to strip yourself of modernity, if that's what you want to do that you somehow don't pay tax, or avoid being part of the system, is that right??? That's a given, is it? I'm half expecting someone to mention Hippies or, god forbid, The Tree Huggers  not forgetting the Crystal gazers because they all belong together, don't they
> 
> So, no doubt you are right, it is a matter of choice and balance and not everyone will want a house in the country and to live off the land just as not everyone wants a large detatched house, and that's hardly news, is it? Some people just have poor living conditions and others, from the comfort of their middle class living room decide to go back to nature.
> 
> By the way, if someone wants to wash sheets by hand, and let's not forget no one has said they do want to, well let them get on with it. I can't believe that they would be looked down upon on the basis of that choice, it's something to be criticised or made fun of??? It's not doing any harm as far as I can see. Some people thrive on filling their days with household tasks. Others fill their time by buying and selling imaginary stock on the markets and making lots of dosh at the expense of others. Seriously, I'd prefer the sheets, and I know what it's like to wash sheets by hand as my second rented house in Catalonia didn't have a washing machine.


To paraphrase Marie Antoinette: Let them wash sheets....
Who's looking down on them? It's just that those of us who have seen our mothers do just this are rather put off the idea for ourselves. I don't think my mum liked having muscles like a stevedore from wringing heavy sheets, not that she wore cocktail dresses or anything like that.
If there's any 'looking down' it could be said to be lurking in phrases like 'rat race' 'consumerism' 'materialism' ad so on, applied to people who basically choose or prefer a life where they can switch on the tv, drive the car somewhere and enjoy the fruits of their labour in providing those services and goods that we all need at one time or other, whether we live in a cave or a palace.
Part of the charm of getting away from it all for some people is not being 'part of a system', paying taxes etc. 

Although we've all got involved in this discussion, it really isn't that important. People do what they want. I did, you did. The phrase 'simple life' is so empty it can be filled with a thousand different meanings.
I have a simple life in terms that I would define it. Old cars but good, sound ones. Few clothes but 'good'. Plain but quality food. My spend goes mainly on books and dinners out with friends, in local restaurants, not La Sala or some posh joint in Puerto Banus.
But I freely admit I enjoy this life because I don't have to go to bed and lie awake worrying about money. The work I did to get this lifestyle was extremely boring and repetitive at times but I stuck it out precisely to be 'free' when I didn't have to clock on anymore.
The idea of living in a remote finca or in a piso in Benidorm both are a big turn-off for me but I don't have to live in either of these places and I wouldn't put a value judgment on either lifestyle. It's all a matter of taste and ...sobre los gustos no hay disputos.


----------



## mrypg9

jojo said:


> lol, this is one of those threads thats gone off in all sorts of tangents and is almost at the point of no return. So, when this happens, its usually a good idea to revert back to the topic title and the original posters questions ?????????? ............or not????
> 
> Jo xxxx


Not really.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

jojo said:


> lol, this is one of those threads thats gone off in all sorts of tangents and is almost at the point of no return. So, when this happens, its usually a good idea to revert back to the topic title and the original posters questions ?????????? ............or not????
> 
> Jo xxxx


If it's to be any help to the OP, yes.


----------



## ABERAFON

oronero said:


> Don't believe the hype!
> 
> I recently saw similar claims but referring to Portuguese 'brick layers in the UK'. When looking into this further the various sources contradicted one another. It became apparent that the figure was what the agencies who were supplying this 'short-term demand' were being paid for the foreign-supplied workers. The Portuguese brick-layers themselves were paid significantly less than that sum.
> 
> Just to bring a sense of norm to this, a qualified high street solicitor can expect to earn approx. £35K per annum outside of London, which works out at about £135 per day. I am very sceptical that an unskilled, unestablished foreign worker can earn £280 per day, if one does exist than he or she are extremely lucky and certainly not the norm.
> 
> Dubious headlines like this is what causes the misery around the world with people seeking a 'new prosperous life in the UK', where many of them only get as far as Calais and have an existence worse than a cockroach!


Could not agree more with this, unskilled workers in the UK get about £7 per hour. Bricklayers and building workers can earn up to £200 per day but tend to work in gangs on a self employed basis. There is a distinct housing shortage where the jobs are and there is a lot of rough sleeping, even where I live on the North Norfolk coast we have people who have come into the country to work on the land sleeping in tents in woods and it is very cold here at present about 1 to 3 degrees in the day. 

There are a lot of jobs but it is difficult to get one if you are unskilled, there is a lot of hype about the streets being paved with gold, most people are finding it difficult to pay their rent or mortgages in the UK as wages have been well behind inflation for many years now and things are very expensive, a lot of people are in debt.


----------



## Anciana

Pesky Wesky said:


> Simple life can be seen as paring down the possesions you have and also changing the way you distribute your money. You see, choosing to make different choices. Maybe it can be seen as a more austere life, a non ostentatious lifestyle.


I have chosen the "simple life" of paring down posesions, however, I don't see that my chosen lifestyle is seen as non ostentatious by others.

You see, I am a gypsy by heart. I love moving from one place to another, I love freedom to - partially - reinvent myself over and over again. 

I have always loved my chosen profession - which is international by design, allowing me to work in different places all over the world. In retirement, I miss working so much that twice I let myself to be persuaded to unretire.

I hate unnecessary ballast of posessions, which would have to be moved with me, or stored somewhere I don't plan to come back again - whenever a new tempting job assignment would beckon. So I either rent furnished places where possible, or buy new - inexpensive and minimalistic - furniture and other household stuff to have for a year or two and give it away.

And yes, I twice had a finca: once when I worked in Costa Rica, in an international research institute high up in the jungle, at the continental divide, I rented a simple cabin with some land - an abandoned flower and vegetable garden and a mini banana plantation. The second time I rented a simple cabin with a finca in the mountains of Puerto Rico. There I had an abundance of tropical fruit treas, as well as plenty of pineapple and calabazas planted by the fincas owner. To say nothing off an abundance of wild flowers.

In both places I had to do laundry by hand... until I hired a household help, who took care of cleaning, washing, clearing the path through the jungle with a machete, so I could reach my finca on foot (parking my car about half a mile down the road) and bringing heavier supplies (foodstuffs for me and my cats etc) about once every two weeks in a 4x4. There was electricity and water, but no phone, no internet, no TV.

It was a lot of fun - and a very healthy lifestyle, due to all the climbing the mountain up and down every day - for about half a year each time and with paid help and with internet and phone at the office. I would not want to live like that for longer, though, preferring - in my old age - a somewhat more comfortable, more conventional simple life.


----------



## The Skipper

After reading all these posts about how hard life was in the old days, I was tempted to tell you all about how poor my family were, but then I thought it would sound like a sketch from Monty Python, so I´ll resist. But it is worth noting that in the nearest town to where I live, old ladies still do their washing in the street, using stone troughs fed by freezing mountain water, and many people from the outlying country areas drive into town to fill containers from a spring. Now that really is a hard life!


----------



## Horlics

As I said, I had to Google for the story. I didn't see the story in the press, I heard a BBC radio interview with him. So, from the horse's mouth, so to speak.



PS51 said:


> If its in the Daily Mail. . .It must be right.


----------



## Rabbitcat

The Skipper said:


> After reading all these posts about how hard life was in the old days, I was tempted to tell you all about how poor my family were, but then I thought it would sound like a sketch from Monty Python, so I´ll resist. But it is worth noting that in the nearest town to where I live, old ladies still do their washing in the street, using stone troughs fed by freezing mountain water, and many people from the outlying country areas drive into town to fill containers from a spring. Now that really is a hard life!



Pah! They have it easy!!!!

Let me tell you what tough living is

Our house had walls so thin we could dip our bread in next doors soup. Infact the walls were so thin we could hear the neighbours changing their mind.

Then we moved to a tower block where the higher up you were the cheaper the rent. We were so high up that at night we had to leave the windows open to let the moon go through.

On a clear day you could see the furniture!!


----------



## Horlics

You'll have to do better than that!

Given the outlook on everything that some of those here have, I am sure they're living through worse.



Rabbitcat said:


> Pah! They have it easy!!!!
> 
> Let me tell you what tough living is
> 
> Our house had walls so thin we could dip our bread in next doors soup. Infact the walls were so thin we could hear the neighbours changing their mind.
> 
> Then we moved to a tower block where the higher up you were the cheaper the rent. We were so high up that at night we had to leave the windows open to let the moon go through.
> 
> On a clear day you could see the furniture!!


----------



## Rabbitcat

Well I will tell you JUST how poor we were

My mum could only afford to buy our clothes from an army surplus store- let me tell you its no joke going to school dressed as a Japanese Admiral


----------



## zx10r-Al

alborino said:


> Yup I know what you mean the UK is a living hell and Spain has countryside paved in gold, free healthcare, free pensions, free autonomo, free ................


I didn't benefit from the NHS whilst living in the UK, despite paying into it. I also had private healthcare for a while. Free pensions? The last time I checked, you only got a pension if you paid into it, either by tax and NI contributions or privately. But I get your point, they were there for me if I needed them. The thing is, you don't need any of these. People managed without them for thousands of years, they've only been around for 60 or so years so hardly essential to life. You can pay privately for medical care, or you can have an insurance policy. There is a choice for most things in life.


----------



## oronero

mrypg9 said:


> Part of the charm of getting away from it all for some people is not being 'part of a system', paying taxes etc.


Who said that living the more simple life was akin to tax evasion?

By default if you are earning less money then your tax liability my be reduced but you would still be paying or rather should pay what is due.

Loose words in a sentence about the 'getting away from it lifestyle' and not paying taxes confuses the matter...after all it is generally larger corporations that are 'part of the system' that 'use societies laws in a manner where, though legal, they reduce their tax liability to level which is morally reprehensible, in my opinion.


----------



## zx10r-Al

astraone said:


> Hello,
> 
> I was looking at moving to Spain from the uk, I am in the process of selling my house here and am looking to live amongst the Locals in a rural setting , I will need some kind of employment but will also have 60k from. The house sale.
> 
> Is it possible to make the move there?


I'll make my point again.

You don't need employment if you are prepared and able to work a finca. Your 60k will buy you a basic home with land that will provide enough food and an income to sustain you if you adopt a simple way of life.


----------



## mrypg9

oronero said:


> Who said that living the more simple life was akin to tax evasion?
> 
> By default if you are earning less money then your tax liability my be reduced but you would still be paying or rather should pay what is due.
> 
> Loose words in a sentence about the 'getting away from it lifestyle' and not paying taxes confuses the matter...after all it is generally larger corporations that are 'part of the system' that 'use societies laws in a manner where, though legal, they reduce their tax liability to level which is morally reprehensible, in my opinion.


Isn't the idea to keep your income below taxation threshold level?
If you're not producing to sell on your finca why should you be taxed?


Incidentally, some people we know who live very simply in what are really sheds not fincas steal electricity and water.


----------



## oronero

The Skipper said:


> ... and many people from the outlying country areas drive into town to fill containers from a spring. Now that really is a hard life!


So you can either collect free spring water or pay for it at the supermarket....Umm, I cannot see filling up some containers being akin to a hard life.


----------



## jojo

To my mind, I live the simple life; I work hard, I have a good job I enjoy, I pay my taxes, I have every conceivable mod con in my house, so my life is very simple, easy and I'm content (sadly I'd sooner be in Spain, but hey, cant have everything). If I have a catastrophe, I'm covered health and insurance wise. Tis a very easy, simple and relaxed life for me lol



Jo xxx


----------



## jojo

zx10r-Al said:


> I'll make my point again.
> 
> You don't need employment if you are prepared and able to work a finca. Your 60k will buy you a basic home with land that will provide enough food and an income to sustain you if you adopt a simple way of life.


What about your healthcover and residencia? or dont you need that?

Jo xxx


----------



## mrypg9

zx10r-Al said:


> I didn't benefit from the NHS whilst living in the UK, despite paying into it. I also had private healthcare for a while. Free pensions? The last time I checked, you only got a pension if you paid into it, either by tax and NI contributions or privately. But I get your point, they were there for me if I needed them. The thing is, you don't need any of these. People managed without them for thousands of years, they've only been around for 60 or so years so hardly essential to life. You can pay privately for medical care, or you can have an insurance policy. There is a choice for most things in life.


I didn't benefit from the NHS when I lived in the UK. We were both lucky to be healthy, you and I. But I'm benefiting from it now as I 've made extensive use of the free regional health system thanks to my NI contributions when I was in the UK.

As for saying you don't need any of these...you can't be serious
Have you any idea of adult and infant mortality rates before medical care was made available to all, free at point of use? Do you want to bring back the Poor Law? Or Workhouses?

Millions of people all over the world manage without these things. They and their children die like flies.

As for choice...choice goes with money. No money and your choices are very limited. But that's where public provision steps in.

I think we're entering the realms of unreality here, just a little. And as for those who scoff at how people lived within the lifetimes of some of us here...all I can say is you should be thankful you are in a position to choose your lifestyle. For most working people only thirty or so years ago that wasn't the case and it still isn't for far too many.


----------



## oronero

mrypg9 said:


> Isn't the idea to keep your income below taxation threshold level?
> If you're not producing to sell on your finca why should you be taxed?
> 
> 
> Incidentally, some people we know who live very simply in what are really sheds not fincas steal electricity and water.


Why would you live your life deliberately trying to reduce your income, that seems perverse to me.

Theft is theft, be it electric or water resources, especially if payment was expected.


----------



## zx10r-Al

jojo said:


> What about your healthcover and residencia? or dont you need that?
> 
> Jo xxx


If there is a lump sum left over from the purchase (10k, 20k?), you'll get residencia. You'll need healthcare too, but you don't have to continue with it once you get residencia. You can take your chances. Look at how many people around the world manage without it? You could also do what so many other ex-pats do, take a trip back to the UK to get treatment.


----------



## jojo

zx10r-Al said:


> If there is a lump sum left over from the purchase (10k, 20k?), you'll get residencia. You'll need healthcare too, but you don't have to continue with it once you get residencia. You can take your chances. Look at how many people around the world manage without it? You could also do what so many other ex-pats do, take a trip back to the UK to get treatment.


It would worry me - what if you suddenly had a heart attack, what if you had children and one injured itself...... too many "what ifs" for me, I wouldnt be able to sleep with worry. 

Sorry, I like my simple life, I get to relax lol

Jo xxx


----------



## mrypg9

oronero said:


> Why would you live your life deliberately trying to reduce your income, that seems perverse to me.
> 
> Theft is theft, be it electric or water resources, especially if payment was expected.


I thought the point was not to have to work, not to rely on gaining an income through work for others in any shape or form.

As for 'deliberately trying to reduce your income'......there have been times when I've done that myself. Times when my income has gone above need and the gaining of it has taken too much of my time.
Haven't some posters here talked of deliberately reducing their income in order to shake off the shackles of the 'rat race'?
We did that too when we decided to sell our business before we had planned to. We lost money we could have earned but gained freedom.

Yes, stealing water and electricity is theft. I disapproved. We ending up doing the washing and ironing of one hippy type we befriended, lending him our car, giving him use of our bathroom for showers and baths, cooking meals, inventing jobs for him so we could give him money..
My patience and kindness ran out one day when he told me that I should opt out of society and its 'structures' and live like him....the irony was lost on him.
I dropped him off at his shed - he had borrowed our LR - and that was it. 
Back to an even simpler life for him.


----------



## Lynn R

zx10r-Al said:


> If there is a lump sum left over from the purchase (10k, 20k?), you'll get residencia. You'll need healthcare too, but you don't have to continue with it once you get residencia. You can take your chances. Look at how many people around the world manage without it? You could also do what so many other ex-pats do, take a trip back to the UK to get treatment.


So what happens if you have an accident whilst, say, using some tools or agricultural machinery on your finca? What happens when you become too old to work on the land, and you haven't clocked up enough NI or Spanish SS contributions to qualify for even a basic pension?

How many people around the world manage without it? I'm sorry to be rude, but what a downright daft thing to say. Very many people don't "manage" at all, they lose their sight, end up disabled for life having been injured in accidents and not having access to surgical interventions, rehabilitation or prosthetics, or they die from complaints that are treatable in countries with a developed health service.

I am really surprised to see you suggesting that people should abuse the system they affect to despise by "taking a trip back to the UK to get treatment" when you must know that entitlement to NHS treatment depends on being resident there. Plus, if one anticipates making a cash income from the products of your land of around €1,200 per year, the cost involved in making such a trip back to the UK would make rather a large hole in that.


----------



## mrypg9

zx10r-Al said:


> 20k?),. Look at how many people around the world manage without it? You could also do what so many other ex-pats do, take a trip back to the UK to get treatment.


Oh yes. Look People all over the world....Ethiopia, Somalia, most of Sub-Saharan Africa, most of the Indian sub-continent. They all manage without health care. Quite a lot of them, especially babies and young children, die anyway so yes, you're right. They don't need it.


As for suggesting 'expats' go back to the NHS...it's illegal once you are resident. And who paid for this fall-back you suggest? Could it be all those rats working away in the rat race to provide taxation to fund the health service?


----------



## Rabbitcat

Well I enjoyed it while it lasted, but frankly your ironing skills left a lot to be desired , your shower gel was not my fav scent, your meals were too repetitive ( I am fed up of fois gras) and your car was not top of its range.


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## mrypg9

Would you believe, I got caught a second time, helping someone who again was living in a shack with a tin roof, generator for electricity when he could afford it...both these hippy types were German, not that it matters, but there seems to be a fair few battered old German VW campervans littering up the campo and beach near us.

I have now hardened my heart to toughest granite.


----------



## jimenato

Lynn R said:


> So what happens if you have an accident whilst, say, using some tools or agricultural machinery on your finca? What happens when you become too old to work on the land, and you haven't clocked up enough NI or Spanish SS contributions to qualify for even a basic pension?
> 
> How many people around the world manage without it? I'm sorry to be rude, but what a downright daft thing to say. Very many people don't "manage" at all, they lose their sight, end up disabled for life having been injured in accidents and not having access to surgical interventions, rehabilitation or prosthetics, or they die from complaints that are treatable in countries with a developed health service.
> 
> I am really surprised to see you suggesting that people should abuse the system they affect to despise by "taking a trip back to the UK to get treatment" when you must know that entitlement to NHS treatment depends on being resident there. Plus, if one anticipates making a cash income from the products of your land of around €1,200 per year, the cost involved in making such a trip back to the UK would make rather a large hole in that.


... and that of course is after autonomo has been paid which even at the reduced agricultural rate must be around E250 per month.


----------



## Lynn R

jimenato said:


> ... and that of course is after autonomo has been paid which even at the reduced agricultural rate must be around E250 per month.


Don't be silly, why would you bother with that? It's to pay for your pension and healthcare, isn't it, which are just newfangled notions which have only been around for 60 years or so and people managed perfectly well without them for thousands of years.


----------



## Rabbitcat

mrypg9 said:


> Would you believe, I got caught a second time, helping someone who again was living in a shack with a tin roof, generator for electricity when he could afford it...both these hippy types were German, not that it matters, but there seems to be a fair few battered old German VW campervans littering up the campo and beach near us.
> 
> I have now hardened my heart to toughest granite.


You are obviously a kind/ caring person .

Its unfortunate but very understandable that your experience with these two schisters have made you feel differently.

Point is you tried to help and did your best


----------



## oronero

mrypg9 said:


> I thought the point was not to have to work, not to rely on gaining an income through work for others in any shape or form.
> 
> As for 'deliberately trying to reduce your income'......there have been times when I've done that myself. Times when my income has gone above need and the gaining of it has taken too much of my time.
> Haven't some posters here talked of deliberately reducing their income in order to shake off the shackles of the 'rat race'?
> We did that too when we decided to sell our business before we had planned to. We lost money we could have earned but gained freedom.
> 
> 
> My patience and kindness ran out one day when he told me that I should opt out of society and its 'structures' and live like him....the irony was lost on him.
> I dropped him off at his shed - he had borrowed our LR - and that was it.
> Back to an even simpler life for him.


I need to read forum posts more objectively rather than subjectively. As the term 'simple life' has shown it means so many different things to so many.

I will continue to do what I do but in a warmer climate alongside just growing produce and keep some animals for my own benefit, I will probably employ some local people also.


----------



## alborino

zx10r-Al said:


> I didn't benefit from the NHS whilst living in the UK, despite paying into it. I also had private healthcare for a while. Free pensions? The last time I checked, you only got a pension if you paid into it, either by tax and NI contributions or privately. But I get your point, they were there for me if I needed them. The thing is, you don't need any of these. People managed without them for thousands of years, they've only been around for 60 or so years so hardly essential to life. You can pay privately for medical care, or you can have an insurance policy. There is a choice for most things in life.


I'd love to reply but apparently I can only post within context of the OP's direct concerns 

but good luck with that approach. I hope you have a joyous life and your crops bear fruit Cheers


----------



## The Skipper

zx10r-Al said:


> There is another way, you won't ever be rich, but you will be fit, healthy and happy. Buy a finca and work it!
> I know a few people who have bought a finca, they harvest rainwater when they can, have a simple solar system for electricity and live a basic, off-grid life with no worries. Other than the cost of the food they can't produce themselves, and nominal land tax, they almost live for free. Milk from their goats, eggs from their chickens, growing fruit and veg, plus they farm the olives. Depending upon the quality and the harvest, one friend can earn around €2000 from his olive harvest, which more than covers his €20-something annual land tax. If you over-produce something you grow particularly well, you can trade it with others for things you need. The pruning gives them wood for heating and cooking, they wash their clothes by hand, and they are the happiest ex-pats I have ever come across in Spain. Too many people are blinkered into thinking that you must have a well paid job because you must buy a big house, and you must have gadgets, and you must have nice furniture, and you must have a newer car than your friends and neighbours and the list goes on.


I´m sorry but you make it sound all too easy. Yes, you can buy a finca and land in parts of Spain for under €50,000, and you can grow vegetables and fruit and shoot some rabbits, but it will be a hard life for the very few that succeed and a disaster for the majority who will fail. I´ve seen it happen around where I live. An English couple bought a finca near me and expected to make a living from their 500 olive trees, but when the price of olives slumped in their second year they were forced to return to the UK. Another near neighbour, a Spaniard, had an apricot and peach orchard and was also commercially growing grapes for wine-making. Due to the drought he had to start hauling water in containers from a river 2km away to stop the trees and vines from dying, but after the river went dry for the first time in memory, that was the end of his little enterprise! Goats and chickens get ill and vets and drugs can cost a fortune. And when inflation returns, as it surely will in a few years, and those nominal local taxes and the cost of other essentials start to soar, the change left out of the original €60k investment in the finca will quickly evaporate. I also start to wonder about unexpected medical bills (because it is doubtful the OP will get free healthcare) and any one of numerous other possible unforeseen emergencies. I have land with over 200 olive, almond and fruit trees but thankfully I don´t have to work it or depend upon it for a living (a Spanish neighbour manages the land in return for the crop). From what I have seen of trying to live off the land in Spain (well, at least in my area) I wouldn´t recommend it to anyone!


----------



## mrypg9

Rabbitcat said:


> You are obviously a kind/ caring person .
> 
> Its unfortunate but very understandable that your experience with these two schisters have made you feel differently.
> 
> Point is you tried to help and did your best


No, I'm not really. I'm just unable to prevent myself sticking my snout in without carefully thinking about what I'm doing first. Plus I'm a slow learner.
What really got to me was that I found one of these freeloaders a job at our animal charity. He let me down badly, just sat around most of the time doing sod-all...
Which of course means that no-one will take much notice of any future recommendations I might want to make.


----------



## zx10r-Al

Lynn R said:


> So what happens if you have an accident whilst, say, using some tools or agricultural machinery on your finca? What happens when you become too old to work on the land, and you haven't clocked up enough NI or Spanish SS contributions to qualify for even a basic pension?
> 
> How many people around the world manage without it? I'm sorry to be rude, but what a downright daft thing to say. Very many people don't "manage" at all, they lose their sight, end up disabled for life having been injured in accidents and not having access to surgical interventions, rehabilitation or prosthetics, or they die from complaints that are treatable in countries with a developed health service.
> 
> I am really surprised to see you suggesting that people should abuse the system they affect to despise by "taking a trip back to the UK to get treatment" when you must know that entitlement to NHS treatment depends on being resident there. Plus, if one anticipates making a cash income from the products of your land of around €1,200 per year, the cost involved in making such a trip back to the UK would make rather a large hole in that.


Its obvious everyone on here has a different experience of life, both in the UK and in Spain. I know people who live in cities over here, money is no object, they insure against anything and everything, they like that life, that level of security. I also know people who live so far off the beaten track, they can't get a mobile phone signal, it takes them 20 mins in a 4x4 to get to a tarmac road or 2.5hrs to walk into the nearest village/town. Why would they want healthcare in case of a machinery injury on their land? They would probably bleed out before help could get there, even if they could raise the alarm. The live a risky life, but that's their choice. Its how they want to live. I think that people implying that everyone should do things the way they do them is rude. 

And if you read my post correctly, you would see that my annual outgoings would be €1200, not the income from my land. And with flights back to the uk only costing £15 each way, its hardly going to break the bank.


----------



## jojo

zx10r-Al said:


> Its obvious everyone on here has a different experience of life, both in the UK and in Spain. I know people who live in cities over here, money is no object, they insure against anything and everything, they like that life, that level of security. I also know people who live so far off the beaten track, they can't get a mobile phone signal, it takes them 20 mins in a 4x4 to get to a tarmac road or 2.5hrs to walk into the nearest village/town. Why would they want healthcare in case of a machinery injury on their land? They would probably bleed out before help could get there, even if they could raise the alarm. The live a risky life, but that's their choice. Its how they want to live. I think that people implying that everyone should do things the way they do them is rude.
> 
> And if you read my post correctly, you would see that my annual outgoings would be €1200, not the income from my land. And with flights back to the uk only costing £15 each way, its hardly going to break the bank.



I wouldnt suggest everyone lives the same way, but I do object to those who use the benefits paid for by those who pay taxes etc and think its ok. And no, the old comment that "I paid into the system" doesnt work. I've paid £1000s in getting my car insured every year, but if I stop paying, I doubt the insurance company would pick up the tab if I had a prang.

So, yes, your way of life is fine as long as you arent living that way and expecting to be able to use the services that you dont pay for. So do your outgoings include private health cover or are you going to risk it? Your choice, but if you're expecting to fly to the UK for any medical treatment, you wont get an emergency flight for £15, especially if you've had a heart attack (I know cos theres a case going on at work with someone who is now expected to pay a huge bill cos he needed a specialist flight). 

Jo xxx


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## extranjero

I wouldn't rely on flights being only £15, very cheap flights are becoming a thing of the past.


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## baldilocks

extranjero said:


> I wouldn't rely on flights being only £15, very cheap flights are becoming a thing of the past.


and by the time taxes are added, they are considerably more than £15


----------



## Lynn R

zx10r-Al said:


> Its obvious everyone on here has a different experience of life, both in the UK and in Spain. I know people who live in cities over here, money is no object, they insure against anything and everything, they like that life, that level of security. I also know people who live so far off the beaten track, they can't get a mobile phone signal, it takes them 20 mins in a 4x4 to get to a tarmac road or 2.5hrs to walk into the nearest village/town. Why would they want healthcare in case of a machinery injury on their land? They would probably bleed out before help could get there, even if they could raise the alarm. The live a risky life, but that's their choice. Its how they want to live. I think that people implying that everyone should do things the way they do them is rude.
> 
> And if you read my post correctly, you would see that my annual outgoings would be €1200, not the income from my land. And with flights back to the uk only costing £15 each way, its hardly going to break the bank.


One can only hope that when you pop back for treatment on a 15 pound flight (and good luck with finding one of those in July or August, Easter, Christmas, New Year or half term holiday periods), all the doctors and nurses won't have been inspired to drop out and opt for self-suffiency on a rural smallholding. What they would think of being expected to treat someone who no longer wishes to contribute to funding their services, when they themselves are still working long hours in stressful conditions and paying their taxes and NI, but still thinks they can pop back from another country to be treated I can only imagine.


----------



## mrypg9

zx10r-Al said:


> Its obvious everyone on here has a different experience of life, both in the UK and in Spain. I know people who live in cities over here, money is no object, they insure against anything and everything, they like that life, that level of security. I also know people who live so far off the beaten track, they can't get a mobile phone signal, it takes them 20 mins in a 4x4 to get to a tarmac road or 2.5hrs to walk into the nearest village/town. Why would they want healthcare in case of a machinery injury on their land? They would probably bleed out before help could get there, even if they could raise the alarm. The live a risky life, but that's their choice. Its how they want to live. I think that people implying that everyone should do things the way they do them is rude.
> 
> And if you read my post correctly, you would see that my annual outgoings would be €1200, not the income from my land. And with flights back to the uk only costing £15 each way, its hardly going to break the bank.


No, just breaking the law. And of course freeloading.
Your idea of self- sufficiency is beginning to sound rather like that of my German hippy acquaintances.


----------



## zx10r-Al

baldilocks said:


> and by the time taxes are added, they are considerably more than £15


That was including tax.


----------



## zx10r-Al

jojo said:


> So, yes, your way of life is fine as long as you arent living that way and expecting to be able to use the services that you dont pay for. So do your outgoings include private health cover or are you going to risk it? Your choice, but if you're expecting to fly to the UK for any medical treatment, you wont get an emergency flight for £15, especially if you've had a heart attack (I know cos theres a case going on at work with someone who is now expected to pay a huge bill cos he needed a specialist flight).
> 
> Jo xxx


It isn't my way of life, but it is how some friends choose to live. I won't pay for private healthcare yet. I'm not saying never, but right now I don't see it as being necessary. I don't have and won't ever have any kids, so its just me and my girlfriend. We will pay what we have to in order to exist, land tax, car insurance etc, but won't bother with things like buildings and contents insurance. Our situation is somewhat different to that I was proposing for the OP, and also that of some of my friends.


----------



## Horlics

I met a fella who bought a Finca that was advertised on Ebay. He lives off-grid, farms olives, uses water from a well, eats eggs from his chickens, and occasionally a chicken! And just when everything was going well and he was as happy as the proverbial pig in the proverbial s**t, he spent a few K reforming a small outbuilding that had been a home to animals.

A year later he had made back all the costs of the reformation by attracting B&B customers, oh, and a profit on top too. His little place is in constant demand in and out of season and he makes more than enough to live his simple life and pay the costs of health insurance. And that's before he sells an olive or an orange or a lemon.

If he had come to this forum and asked for advice before he set out on this adventure, he would have been told he was a crazy.


----------



## Sun11

Horlics said:


> He lives off-grid, farms olives, uses water from a well, eats eggs from his chickens, and occasionally a chicken!


Not everybody can live like that. Back to roots? No way


----------



## mrypg9

Horlics said:


> I met a fella who bought a Finca that was advertised on Ebay. He lives off-grid, farms olives, uses water from a well, eats eggs from his chickens, and occasionally a chicken! And just when everything was going well and he was as happy as the proverbial pig in the proverbial s**t, he spent a few K reforming a small outbuilding that had been a home to animals.
> 
> A year later he had made back all the costs of the reformation by attracting B&B customers, oh, and a profit on top too. His little place is in constant demand in and out of season and he makes more than enough to live his simple life and pay the costs of health insurance. And that's before he sells an olive or an orange or a lemon.
> 
> If he had come to this forum and asked for advice before he set out on this adventure, he would have been told he was a crazy.


So..one succeeds and a hundred fail..
And the point is?


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## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> So..one succeeds and a hundred fail..
> And the point is?


That that should be reflected in the replies given?


----------



## Pesky Wesky

zx10r-Al said:


> If there is a lump sum left over from the purchase (10k, 20k?), you'll get residencia. You'll need healthcare too, but you don't have to continue with it once you get residencia. You can take your chances. Look at how many people around the world manage without it? You could also do what so many other ex-pats do, take a trip back to the UK to get treatment.


The chances are that you'll continue to enjoy good health, but you are taking an extreme risk by not having health care covered. 
Apart from that, as has already been pointed out, it's illegal, as is going to the UK for treatment when you don't live there, and that needs to be said when you write about it.


----------



## jojo

Pesky Wesky said:


> The chances are that you'll continue to enjoy good health, but you are taking an extreme risk by not having health care covered.
> Apart from that, as has already been pointed out, it's illegal, as is going to the UK for treatment when you don't live there, and that needs to be said when you write about it.


Its not just healthcare, there are so many "what ifs" which in a lot of cases will be "what whens ". Bad, destructive weather, burglaries, wear and tear, water and electricity supply failure, car repairs, land issues .... But back to health care. An emergency flight (£15 and the rest lol) to go to a&e in the uk - or even a visit to a gp could be very problematic. Airlines aren't keen on carrying sick passengers and if you need to have on going or long term treatment....

Maybe I'm just over cautious and probably prefer a stress free life, but I couldn't sleep through worry if I were in your shoes. But that's lifestyle choices. Acting illegally is simply wrong and likely to be found out, so that needs addressing 

Jo xxxx

Sent from my D5803 using Expat Forum


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## mrypg9

There must be something about Spain that can cause a radical disconnect from reality in some people. I often wonder about this whenever I hear that trite old phrase 'Spanish dream'.
Leaving aside the likely feelings of the six million or so Spaniards when hearing that phrase from comparatively well-heeled Brits, what does it say about the lives of those who deploy it, one might ask...
Has anyone heard the phrase 'the French dream '? The phrase 'American Dream' is well- known but has an entirely different meaning, or had.
To read some posts, anyone might think that life in the UK was one relentless treadmill of gloom and despair. A reality check is needed here. The UK is one of the world's richest nations, whose citizens enjoy a high standard of material living and social welfare provision. People literally risk their lives to get there. Yet it can casually be said that millions live without this provision we take for granted....so it's not 'necessary'.
If the real meaning of this 'dream' is that in Spain the sun shines a lot whereas it rains a lot in the UK it signifies a profound superficiality. As for the relaxed Spanish lifestyle...another myth that insults all those actually living in Spain who work long hours to put food on the table and keep a roof over their heads..
I believe the current phrase is ' Check your privilege'


----------



## Lynn R

Horlics said:


> If he had come to this forum and asked for advice before he set out on this adventure, he would have been told he was a crazy.


For all your encouragement of various ventures, we note that you prefer to hang on to a presumably well paid job in the UAE and just spend your leisure time in Spain rather than looking for a job, setting up a business or embarking on life as a subsistence farmer here.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Lynn R said:


> For all your encouragement of various ventures, we note that you prefer to hang on to a presumably well paid job in the UAE and just spend your leisure time in Spain rather than looking for a job, setting up a business or embarking on life as a subsistence farmer here.


I read Horlics' post about the person he knows living off grid as just that, an example of someone he knows living off grid, not as encouraging anyone to set up life as a subsistence farmer...


----------



## jojo

Pesky Wesky said:


> I read Horlics' post about the person he knows living off grid as just that, an example of someone he knows living off grid, not as encouraging anyone to set up life as a subsistence farmer...


 Theres nothing wrong with living off the grid as long as its done with thought and is legal. I have a friend who is living like this in Wales and - its not been easy at all and they have needed to use healthcare (not a problem in Wales) for a serious health issue, but they're still "hanging on in there"

Jo xxx


----------



## mrypg9

jojo said:


> Theres nothing wrong with living off the grid as long as its done with thought and is legal. I have a friend who is living like this in Wales and - its not been easy at all and they have needed to use healthcare (not a problem in Wales) for a serious health issue, but they're still "hanging on in there"
> 
> Jo xxx


I don't know what the odds are against anyone coming here to find work or set up in a finca somewhere but there's no doubt they are not favourable. There's one other point too.
How many of us would act upon the opinions of total strangers on an internet forum when deciding on a life -changing venture, I wonder....Don't get me wrong, I looked to this Forum for advice before moving but on factual matters, like rent levels, how long I could drive my UK car, stuff like that. But I wouldn't dream of asking questions like 'Where should I live in Spain?' 'Should I buy or rent?' and most certainly not 'Is it possible to come to Spain speaking no Spanish and find work as a bricklayer/beautician/administrator/with my two children/live 'with the locals' in the middle of the campo and live off what I produce and so on....
I would hazard a guess that the few people who do come here and find work or start businesses are experienced, hard-headed people who know how many beans make five and wouldn't dream of asking advice from people like me, for example, whose experience of growing my own was forty years ago in the pleasant climate of southern England, in my garden, on-grid and whose concept of self-sufficiency was based on balancing income and expenditure each month and not having to ask for a bank loan....


----------



## Pesky Wesky

jojo said:


> Theres nothing wrong with living off the grid as long as its done with thought and is legal. I have a friend who is living like this in Wales and - its not been easy at all and they have needed to use healthcare (not a problem in Wales) for a serious health issue, but they're still "hanging on in there"
> 
> Jo xxx


I'm not entering into whether it's right, wrong, easy, difficult, sane or insane, a better or worse lifestyle, only that it's been done in various countries illegally , but also *legally
*


----------



## jojo

Actually, if he was to (or has) legally set up as a proper farming or "whatever" business, then he would have health cover and wouldnt live in fear of being caught (which if he's making money by selling to the public its only a matter of time) and could live the "good life" lol

Jo xxx


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## Lynn R

Hey, I CAN think of somebody who did it successfully, Chris Stewart. Oh but hang on, he has made rather a lot of money from writing books (very good ones too, I like them) not to mention what he would have had to start with from having been a member of a successful rock band.


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## zx10r-Al

I guess you're right, cheap flights aren't available...


----------



## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> I don't know what the odds are against anyone coming here to find work or set up in a finca somewhere but there's no doubt they are not favourable. There's one other point too.
> How many of us would act upon the opinions of total strangers on an internet forum when deciding on a life -changing venture, I wonder....Don't get me wrong, I looked to this Forum for advice before moving but on factual matters, like rent levels, how long I could drive my UK car, stuff like that. But I wouldn't dream of asking questions like 'Where should I live in Spain?' 'Should I buy or rent?' and most certainly not 'Is it possible to come to Spain speaking no Spanish and find work as a bricklayer/beautician/administrator/with my two children/live 'with the locals' in the middle of the campo and live off what I produce and so on....
> I would hazard a guess that the few people who do come here and find work or start businesses are experienced, hard-headed people who know how many beans make five and wouldn't dream of asking advice from people like me, for example, whose experience of growing my own was forty years ago in the pleasant climate of southern England, in my garden, on-grid and whose concept of self-sufficiency was based on balancing income and expenditure each month and not having to ask for a bank loan....


As the thread is completely off topic now and the OP has visited but not surprisingly has decided to no longer participate I'll respond to this.
I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask such questions on a forum. After all you could rightly presume that this is a place where people who live in and want to live in Spain congregate. And that is indeed what happens, so who better to ask?
However, what should you/ can you do with that information? Not take it as Gospel to start with and remember that most of what you read will be someone's opinion or interpretation.
If I was looking for a teaching job in Australia for example I'd probably post something on the Australian forum asking about possible salaries, the education system, how schools are run, standards of education etc to see what the general feel was. However, I'd also be looking at job ads and school websites myself and I think that's what a lot of people do when they come on here, they back it up with their own findings. 
Of course some don't.
And of course we all make mistakes in our journeys, but most of us get most things "right" and part of that process is asking others what they think


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Lynn R said:


> Hey, I CAN think of somebody who did it successfully, Chris Stewart. Oh but hang on, he has made rather a lot of money from writing books (very good ones too, I like them) not to mention what he would have had to start with from having been a member of a successful rock band.


He left Genesis *before* they were famous, long before, when he was 17!


----------



## Lynn R

zx10r-Al said:


> I guess you're right, cheap flights aren't available...


You'll be fine as long as you're taken ill in the off-season, then. If you've perfected the trick of pre-ordaining your illnesses or injuries for a convenient time, well done.

But you still haven't addressed the fact that going back to the UK for health treatment isn't legal. I was under the impression that the Forum's Acceptable Use Policy did not allow for anyone to advocate such actions.


----------



## jojo

My point and I suspect the view of the forum is to make people aware of the legalities. So before anyone starts their journey, they need to know what is right and wrong. The forum is a great place to find that out and to learn the different and varied experiences of those who have already done it. Ok, we're not experts, but there is a wealth of experience and anecdotal words of wisdom.

So the first part of the relocation journey is finding out and gaining knowledge (for this, the forum is perfect), then its to explore and to find out the official legalities.

Jo xxx


----------



## jojo

zx10r-Al said:


> I guess you're right, cheap flights aren't available...


Now try getting it at that price on short notice, peak season and if you are visibly unwell or wounded. 

Then try getting free healthcare in the UK if they suspect that you dont live in the UK (and they will find out)

And has already been pointed out, this is illegal and the forum doesnt condone illegal issues. 

Jo xxx


----------



## Horlics

Just saying.



mrypg9 said:


> So..one succeeds and a hundred fail..
> And the point is?


----------



## xabiaxica

jojo said:


> Actually, if he was to (or has) legally set up as a proper farming or "whatever" business, then he would have health cover and wouldnt live in fear of being caught (which if he's making money by selling to the public its only a matter of time) and could live the "good life" lol
> 
> Jo xxx


good point

if he's earning money from letting rooms & so on, then hopefully he has done it all legally as far as licences, income tax, SS payments etc. are concerned


----------



## Horlics

Hi Lynn,

Actually, I rarely offer direct encouragement, nor do I discourage. I have once or twice said "go for it" but tend to stick to answering questions of fact if I have the answer. 

There is no need for "we" to "note" about the UAE job. I really must update my profile because I left the UAE a while ago. I now spend 6 months in Spain, a few months in England with family and friends, and a couple of months wherever I suddenly feel like zipping off to. I spend my spare time working on a business venture with my son, and as it is a technology business it doesn't matter where I am.

As your assumptions about me seem to have missed the mark, may I rather helpfully suggest that you or "we" don't presume anything, just ask me directly here or in PM. I am only too happy to answer.



Lynn R said:


> For all your encouragement of various ventures, we note that you prefer to hang on to a presumably well paid job in the UAE and just spend your leisure time in Spain rather than looking for a job, setting up a business or embarking on life as a subsistence farmer here.


----------



## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> As the thread is completely off topic now and the OP has visited but not surprisingly has decided to no longer participate I'll respond to this.
> I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask such questions on a forum. After all you could rightly presume that this is a place where people who live in and want to live in Spain congregate. And that is indeed what happens, so who better to ask?
> However, what should you/ can you do with that information? Not take it as Gospel to start with and remember that most of what you read will be someone's opinion or interpretation.
> If I was looking for a teaching job in Australia for example I'd probably post something on the Australian forum asking about possible salaries, the education system, how schools are run, standards of education etc to see what the general feel was. However, I'd also be looking at job ads and school websites myself and I think that's what a lot of people do when they come on here, they back it up with their own findings.
> Of course some don't.
> And of course we all make mistakes in our journeys, but most of us get most things "right" and part of that process is asking others what they think



That's the kind of information the answers to which are factual, though.
You wouldn't ask: 'Will I enjoy living/teaching in Australia, would you


----------



## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> That's the kind of information the answers to which are factual, though.
> You wouldn't ask: 'Will I enjoy living/teaching in Australia, would you


Well no. I can't see me coming up with that kind of question
And you're right, I do think there are people who ask strange questions like the example you give, but I think it's often just a badly worded question. They don't really want you to tell them that. They want you to tell them what your personal experience is of teaching in Australia or whatever it is. It's all anecdotal, but that's often very enlightening. However, sometimes people who are just beginning are a bit lost and don't realise what they are really doing yet, hence the "Where's a good place for me to buy a house in Spain?" type question. When they begin to read the answers they should start realising that a lot more thinking is needed


----------



## zx10r-Al

jojo said:


> Now try getting it at that price on short notice, peak season and if you are visibly unwell or wounded.
> 
> Then try getting free healthcare in the UK if they suspect that you dont live in the UK (and they will find out)
> 
> And has already been pointed out, this is illegal and the forum doesnt condone illegal issues.
> 
> Jo xxx


That wasn't why I posted those flights, people were saying you can't get £15 flights and it proved them wrong. It wasn't about when they are available, they simply said you can't get them for that price. They were wrong.

I'm not doing anything illegal. I'm not going back for treatment, I simply said that people do.


----------



## jojo

zx10r-Al said:


> That wasn't why I posted those flights, people were saying you can't get £15 flights and it proved them wrong. It wasn't about when they are available, they simply said you can't get them for that price. They were wrong.
> 
> I'm not doing anything illegal. I'm not going back for treatment, I simply said that people do.


If you dont have health cover, if you are running a business without the correct licences, income tax, SS payments and insurances, then you are doing lots illegal. Not only could you be closed down, but fined if caught. Spain is no longer an easy option for just setting up and living as you wish. Its probably more complicated than the UK with regards to rules - worse if you dont speak the language or understand what to do

Jo xxx


----------



## zx10r-Al

jojo said:


> My point and I suspect the view of the forum is to make people aware of the legalities. So before anyone starts their journey, they need to know what is right and wrong. The forum is a great place to find that out and to learn the different and varied experiences of those who have already done it. Ok, we're not experts, but there is a wealth of experience and anecdotal words of wisdom.
> 
> So the first part of the relocation journey is finding out and gaining knowledge (for this, the forum is perfect), then its to explore and to find out the official legalities.
> 
> Jo xxx


But the trouble with this site is that unless you suggest doing things in the way that the most prolific posters did or would do those things, all you get is a torrent of negative and unhelpful posts like 'its illegal' or 'you can't do that'. I know people who are living in sandbag houses, straw bale houses, some for over 3 years. They don't have medical insurance. They aren't working, and they aren't registered as being resident. It may be wrong, but people do it. People build an almacen and live in it all the time. The authorities know about it, and they turn a blind eye. Does that make it acceptable? People are far to quick to jump on the keyboard with their negativity, holier-than-thou keyboard warriors, "you can't get a flight for £15" without even looking into it. What goes on in their tiny minds, amongst their circle of friends is all they know, and they won't accept that maybe they are wrong, maybe they don't know it all, maybe things are different in different parts of the country. Some of you need to get off your high horse, and offer helpful, constructive replies and stop dismissing everyone elses dream of what they consider to be a better way of life. Or should we change the name of this site to 'wealthy, law abiding, do it our way or no way Ex Pat Forum'.


----------



## jojo

zx10r-Al said:


> But the trouble with this site is that unless you suggest doing things in the way that the most prolific posters did or would do those things, all you get is a torrent of negative and unhelpful posts like 'its illegal' or 'you can't do that'. I know people who are living in sandbag houses, straw bale houses, some for over 3 years. They don't have medical insurance. They aren't working, and they aren't registered as being resident. It may be wrong, but people do it. People build an almacen and live in it all the time. The authorities know about it, and they turn a blind eye. Does that make it acceptable? People are far to quick to jump on the keyboard with their negativity, holier-than-thou keyboard warriors, "you can't get a flight for £15" without even looking into it. What goes on in their tiny minds, amongst their circle of friends is all they know, and they won't accept that maybe they are wrong, maybe they don't know it all, maybe things are different in different parts of the country. Some of you need to get off your high horse, and offer helpful, constructive replies and stop dismissing everyone elses dream of what they consider to be a better way of life. Or should we change the name of this site to 'wealthy, law abiding, do it our way or no way Ex Pat Forum'.



Its how it is. We've got forum pages for all over the world - go look at the British page for example. Its about explaining how things should be done. What would you say to an immigrant who had arrived in the UK, bought a farm and decided he wasnt going to have to pay for anything or insure against anything and carry on regardless???

I would say that the forum is simply telling people the rules as they are and the pitfalls that have been experienced. So, no its not called the Wealthy, law abiding forum, because its not about wealth and yes it is about law abiding. Maybe there are forums out there that can tell you the best way of breaking country rules and not getting caught???? Cos trust me, Spain, as a lot of Europe has cracked down big time on those who think they can flout their laws. This isnt one of those forums - sorry

The idea is that you find these things out before you do them either way. knowledge is king!

Jo xxx


----------



## zx10r-Al

jojo said:


> If you dont have health cover, if you are running a business without the correct licences, income tax, SS payments and insurances, then you are doing lots illegal. Not only could you be closed down, but fined if caught. Spain is no longer an easy option for just setting up and living as you wish. Its probably more complicated than the UK with regards to rules - worse if you dont speak the language or understand what to do
> 
> Jo xxx


But I'm not doing any of that. It was wrongly assumed that I was. We've only been here 3 weeks, only got our NIE 2 weeks ago. How quickly do you expect people to get a business up and running? We're still back and forth to the UK a few times until towards the end of the year as there's so much to do in both countries until we finally sever ties with the UK completely. At the moment, we're with friends who have run a campsite without a licence for 16 years. The police call in every month, ask to see the visitor book, say everything is ok and leave. Every year they apply for a licence, every year they are refused, but still allowed to operate. That goes against every bit of advice you will get on here.


----------



## jojo

zx10r-Al said:


> But I'm not doing any of that. It was wrongly assumed that I was. We've only been here 3 weeks, only got our NIE 2 weeks ago. How quickly do you expect people to get a business up and running? We're still back and forth to the UK a few times until towards the end of the year as there's so much to do in both countries until we finally sever ties with the UK completely. At the moment, we're with friends who have run a campsite without a licence for 16 years. The police call in every month, ask to see the visitor book, say everything is ok and leave. Every year they apply for a licence, every year they are refused, but still allowed to operate. That goes against every bit of advice you will get on here.


But you are new, so your friends may have an established arrangement, altho that could change any minute. 

If you want to be legal, you have 90 days in which to register as residents and get your autonomo in place. Then you have to start the process of getting the correct permits, licences and insurances. 

Jo xxx


----------



## zx10r-Al

jojo said:


> Its how it is. We've got forum pages for all over the world - go look at the British page for example. Its about explaining how things should be done. What would you say to an immigrant who had arrived in the UK, bought a farm and decided he wasnt going to have to pay for anything or insure against anything and carry on regardless???


Some insurance is optional, like buildings & contents (if you don't have a mortgage). Some is compulsory. I never said about not paying for anything, I'm paying my way where I have to, but where I don't, I won't. I won't pay for insurance I don't need or want. 



jojo said:


> I would say that the forum is simply telling people the rules as they are and the pitfalls that have been experienced. So, no its not called the Wealthy, law abiding forum, because its not about wealth and yes it is about law abiding. Maybe there are forums out there that can tell you the best way of breaking country rules and not getting caught???? Cos trust me, Spain, as a lot of Europe has cracked down big time on those who think they can flout their laws. This isnt one of those forums - sorry
> 
> The idea is that you find these things out before you do them either way. knowledge is king!
> 
> Jo xxx


Sometimes even the authorities are relaxed about their laws though. 50km from here, you can basically build whatever you like and live in it all year if you're British. Our farm was granted a licence for an extension doubling the footprint, plus a 2nd floor elevation, and its just 15metres from the river. Everyone we spoke to said you can't build near the river. So whilst there are laws and rules, they are not always strictly enforced.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

zx10r-Al said:


> But the trouble with this site is that unless you suggest doing things in the way that the most prolific posters did or would do those things, all you get is a torrent of negative and unhelpful posts like 'its illegal' or 'you can't do that'. I know people who are living in sandbag houses, straw bale houses, some for over 3 years. They don't have medical insurance. They aren't working, and they aren't registered as being resident. It may be wrong, but people do it. People build an almacen and live in it all the time. The authorities know about it, and they turn a blind eye. Does that make it acceptable? People are far to quick to jump on the keyboard with their negativity, holier-than-thou keyboard warriors, "you can't get a flight for £15" without even looking into it. What goes on in their tiny minds, amongst their circle of friends is all they know, and they won't accept that maybe they are wrong, maybe they don't know it all, maybe things are different in different parts of the country. Some of you need to get off your high horse, and offer helpful, constructive replies and stop dismissing everyone elses dream of what they consider to be a better way of life. Or should we change the name of this site to 'wealthy, law abiding, do it our way or no way Ex Pat Forum'.


I do agree to a certain degree.
We all jump on the keyboard too quickly at times and make mistakes or don't think things through. Then there are those who tend to see things their way. From what I've seen on this thread stereotypes are alive and kicking ie living off the land is dangerous, illegal, a step backwards and something to be condemned.
Unfortunately, you have proved them right in some aspects with your lack of healthcare! You can surely understand that this forum is run by an organisation and that organisation is responsible or can be held responsible to a certain extent for what is posted. Apart from that it cannot be seen to encourage illegal behaviour or misguide/ mislead people who seek info here. It doesn't matter if loads of people are doing it or not, which strikes me as a pretty naïve attitude.
At the very least you should imo have been up front with your situation and should bear that in mind should you wish to post again.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

zx10r-Al said:


> I'm not doing anything illegal.


But you are doing something illegal!


----------



## zx10r-Al

jojo said:


> If you want to be legal, you have 90 days in which to register as residents and get your autonomo in place. Then you have to start the process of getting the correct permits, licences and insurances.
> 
> Jo xxx


That's if we intend staying for more than the 90 days continuously though, isn't it? Or more than 183 days a year?


----------



## Lynn R

Horlics said:


> Hi Lynn,
> 
> Actually, I rarely offer direct encouragement, nor do I discourage. I have once or twice said "go for it" but tend to stick to answering questions of fact if I have the answer.
> 
> There is no need for "we" to "note" about the UAE job. I really must update my profile because I left the UAE a while ago. I now spend 6 months in Spain, a few months in England with family and friends, and a couple of months wherever I suddenly feel like zipping off to. I spend my spare time working on a business venture with my son, and as it is a technology business it doesn't matter where I am.
> 
> As your assumptions about me seem to have missed the mark, may I rather helpfully suggest that you or "we" don't presume anything, just ask me directly here or in PM. I am only too happy to answer.


Thank you for the update, updating your location will avoid any misconceptions or assumptions about where you are based. If anyone wished to set up a business or already has one where their location was irrelevant then certainly coming to Spain to do it full time would not be a problem - as I have said myself in response to other people who have expressed interest in coming to live here. I have also said that for anyone who can secure contracted employment here, can work for an employer outside Spain, has an adequate pension or other financial resources enabling them to live without needing employment, then coming here is a great idea for the lifestyle it can offer, whether that be living off grid in a rural location or anywhere else to suit their own tastes. 

I never tell anybody to "go for it" if that involves taking a risk I wouldn't be happy to take myself.


----------



## zx10r-Al

Pesky Wesky said:


> But you are doing something illegal!


What?

I didn't think my situation to be too relevant, I was merely trying to help a forum member into seeing a way of living in Spain without needing a full time job, a way others have achieved quite easily.


----------



## jojo

zx10r-Al said:


> That's if we intend staying for more than the 90 days continuously though, isn't it? Or more than 183 days a year?



If you're planing to live in Spain and you are there for more than 90 days, then yes, you need to be registered as a resident as it will be your main "centre of interest" So you will require proof of income and healthcare. If you are running a business as autonomo, then that can count as your proof. You will need to speak with a Gestor and they can make all the arrangements.

Jo xxx


----------



## Pesky Wesky

zx10r-Al said:


> Some insurance is optional, like buildings & contents (if you don't have a mortgage). Some is compulsory. I never said about not paying for anything, I'm paying my way where I have to, but where I don't, I won't. I won't pay for insurance I don't need or want.
> 
> 
> Sometimes even the authorities are relaxed about their laws though. 50km from here, you can basically build whatever you like and* live in it all year if you're British*. Our farm was granted a licence for an extension doubling the footprint, plus a 2nd floor elevation, and its just 15metres from the river. Everyone we spoke to said *you can't build near the river*. So whilst there are laws and rules, they are not always strictly enforced.


Be careful!
You can't build near a river for good reasons!
Ask Jojo about floods in Spain and look at reports for flash floods in your area. You need to go back for years too. Something like this happens in Spain every, what 5 - 10 years??
Flash Floods in Spanish Pyrenees Kills Scores - NYTimes.com

As for the "you can live in it all year if you're British" . What? Whhaaat??? No way I'd build a life around that. Apart form the sentiment behind it, that's likely to change at any moment depending on who's in the "in" crowd at the ayuntamiento.
So if you want to do that, ok, but please when you write about your lifestyle, tell it like it is.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

zx10r-Al said:


> What?
> 
> I didn't think my situation to be too relevant, I was merely trying to help a forum member into seeing a way of living in Spain without needing a full time job, a way others have achieved quite easily.


I thought we'd already established that you don't have healthcare in place, but you do intend to live here?
I'm not sure if you know about the EU citizens register, that you have to have health care set up and you have to have enough money so as "not to be a burden on the Spanish system" which is usually calculated at @ 600€ a month per person


----------



## Lynn R

Pesky Wesky said:


> I thought we'd already established that you don't have healthcare in place, but you do intend to live here?
> I'm not sure if you know about the EU citizens register, that you have to have health care set up and you have to have enough money so as "not to be a burden on the Spanish system" which is usually calculated at @ 600€ a month per person


I believe (although I may just have misread it again) that this poster stated that it was possible to take out private health insurance for the purposes of registering as a resident, and then cancel it afterwards. Which is another undesirable thing to do as far as I'm concerned, I'm afraid.

Oh yes, post #107:-

"If there is a lump sum left over from the purchase (10k, 20k?), you'll get residencia. You'll need healthcare too, but you don't have to continue with it once you get residencia. You can take your chances. Look at how many people around the world manage without it? You could also do what so many other ex-pats do, take a trip back to the UK to get treatment."


----------



## Lynn R

Pesky Wesky said:


> Be careful!
> You can't build near a river for good reasons!
> Ask Jojo about floods in Spain and look at reports for flash floods in your area. You need to go back for years too. Something like this happens in Spain every, what 5 - 10 years??
> Flash Floods in Spanish Pyrenees Kills Scores - NYTimes.com
> 
> As for the "you can live in it all year if you're British" . What? Whhaaat??? No way I'd build a life around that. Apart form the sentiment behind it, that's likely to change at any moment depending on who's in the "in" crowd at the ayuntamiento.
> So if you want to do that, ok, but please when you write about your lifestyle, tell it like it is.


My first instinct was to mention the risk of flash floods, but I thought, no, let's not be too negative ...


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Well, this thread isn't doing anything for me so I'm bowing out now.
See you on another, more inspiring thread soon, I hope!


----------



## Horlics

Lynn R said:


> Thank you for the update.....


Thanks for the thanks 




Lynn R said:


> If anyone wished to set up a business or already has one where their location was irrelevant then certainly coming to Spain to do it full time would not be a problem - as I have said myself in response to other people who have expressed interest in coming to live here. I have also said that for anyone who can secure contracted employment here, can work for an employer outside Spain, has an adequate pension or other financial resources enabling them to live without needing employment, then coming here is a great idea for the lifestyle it can offer, whether that be living off grid in a rural location or anywhere else to suit their own tastes.


I'm not quite sure why you went on to add that lot to your post. Please don't mistake me for somebody who asked for or needs your advice.


----------



## Lynn R

Horlics said:


> Thanks for the thanks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not quite sure why you went on to add that lot to your post. Please don't mistake me for somebody who asked for or needs your advice.


Why did I add the rest? Well, I suppose because I've read your comments a number of times now saying that too many forum members are needlessly negative in their responses when new posters ask about the possibilities of coming to Spain and finding work or starting businesses, buying property or becoming resident here. I just wanted to make it clear that personally, I am certainly not against coming to live in Spain, but would only think it a sensible thing to do in the circumstances I outlined.

You are certainly not in need of any advice of that kind, as according to your update you spend only 6 months of the year in Spain and are not looking for work or setting up a business here.


----------



## Horlics

Hi Lynn, 

Firstly, let me point out that what I am about to say is not aimed at you. I happen to agree with your point of view on the circumstances under which coming to Spain is sensible and I know that you are consistent with that message.

What I find difficult to ignore is general negativity with no knowledge of specific circumstances. 

Earlier I replied "just saying" in this thread because I didn't want to pick a fight. I still don't, but I shall now comment further. When somebody says that one succeeds and 99 fail... Let's take each of the last 5 years. Nobody here knows how many of the eco-living, good life style ventures were either (a) started or (b) failed. They simply don't know.

I am 100% convinced that if I wanted to buy a finca, live the "good life", and make the money I needed to continue with the venture, I could. I've met people who are doing it and I can tell you with certainty, I could do it. I therefore am not one to be negative about others' intentions. I certainly do not then start picking on them with references to forum rules, telling them they are doing something illegal when it's not clear they intend to, or suggesting that this site could get in trouble for what they are posting here. (Madre Mia, if Twitter can get away with what's posted on it I am sure Expatforum's owners are sleeping soundly).

It's all a bit ridiculous really.

In the spirit of avoiding fights, this is my last contribution to this thread.



Lynn R said:


> Why did I add the rest? Well, I suppose because I've read your comments a number of times now saying that too many forum members are needlessly negative in their responses when new posters ask about the possibilities of coming to Spain and finding work or starting businesses, buying property or becoming resident here. I just wanted to make it clear that personally, I am certainly not against coming to live in Spain, but would only think it a sensible thing to do in the circumstances I outlined.
> 
> You are certainly not in need of any advice of that kind, as according to your update you spend only 6 months of the year in Spain and are not looking for work or setting up a business here.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Horlics said:


> Hi Lynn,
> 
> Firstly, let me point out that what I am about to say is not aimed at you. I happen to agree with your point of view on the circumstances under which coming to Spain is sensible and I know that you are consistent with that message.
> 
> What I find difficult to ignore is general negativity with no knowledge of specific circumstances.
> 
> Earlier I replied "just saying" in this thread because I didn't want to pick a fight. I still don't, but I shall now comment further. When somebody says that one succeeds and 99 fail... Let's take each of the last 5 years. Nobody here knows how many of the eco-living, good life style ventures were either (a) started or (b) failed. They simply don't know.
> 
> I am 100% convinced that if I wanted to buy a finca, live the "good life", and make the money I needed to continue with the venture, I could. I've met people who are doing it and I can tell you with certainty, I could do it. I therefore am not one to be negative about others' intentions. I certainly do not then start picking on them with references to forum rules, telling them they are doing something illegal when it's not clear they intend to, or suggesting that this site could get in trouble for what they are posting here. (Madre Mia, if Twitter can get away with what's posted on it I am sure Expatforum's owners are sleeping soundly).
> 
> It's all a bit ridiculous really.
> 
> In the spirit of avoiding fights, this is my last contribution to this thread.


The reason I had decided not to post any more on this thread was the downer effect. I have written on dozens of threads explaining to people aspects of the unemployment, politics, economy and even though they were labelled as negative, usually by the OP who wasn't expecting to get the truth, I felt they were informative.This thread has seemed more like an attempt to undermine those who want to do something outside the lines of normal behaviour. That's what it has felt like to me personally, _even if it wasn't supposed to be._
I came back to it because I turned on the computer to see I'd be given more "likes" than any other day and some were from this thread, so I opened it up to see what was what.
So, Horlics without wanting to argue...but I was the person who mentioned the Forum rules... What I said is true although it may seem ridiculous to you and I don't think Twitter can be compared to a forum like this which is information based. What value does the forum have if people post whatever information they have without qualifying it? So I think what zx10r-Al has written is very interesting and valid, but he should tell the whole story. In fact it's been quite difficult to get the full idea of what he's doing because he gives a little more info in each post. In one of the last he says that he's only been living here 3 weeks!
I do agree there's been a lot of talking with little knowledge on this thread and my own thoughts are that the OP has had little useful information .


----------



## Pesky Wesky

alborino said:


> I'd love to reply but apparently I can only post within context of the OP's direct concerns


Alborino, I think this is a reference to some posts we exchanged earlier. If it is then I'd just like to say I did not mean you _can only post within context of the OP's direct concerns_. What I might have meant is that people were IMO, confusing what the OP wanted to know about and what people were posting and therefore questioning just how useful this thread is


----------



## BaguetteMan

zx10r-Al said:


> There is another way, you won't ever be rich, but you will be fit, healthy and happy. Buy a finca and work it!
> I know a few people who have bought a finca, they harvest rainwater when they can, have a simple solar system for electricity and live a basic, off-grid life with no worries. Other than the cost of the food they can't produce themselves, and nominal land tax, they almost live for free. Milk from their goats, eggs from their chickens, growing fruit and veg, plus they farm the olives. Depending upon the quality and the harvest, one friend can earn around €2000 from his olive harvest, which more than covers his €20-something annual land tax. If you over-produce something you grow particularly well, you can trade it with others for things you need. The pruning gives them wood for heating and cooking, they wash their clothes by hand, and they are the happiest ex-pats I have ever come across in Spain. Too many people are blinkered into thinking that you must have a well paid job because you must buy a big house, and you must have gadgets, and you must have nice furniture, and you must have a newer car than your friends and neighbours and the list goes on.


I would love the idea of living this lifestyle. Someone else has commented: money isn't every thing"

That's true provided you have enough money to buy the finca and get it the way you want it, then stock it with animals etc. in the first place. The 'Good Life' is just that IF you can afford it. For some people (I'm thinking of people living a peasant life in rural Spain/Italy/Greece) this type of existence is a hard one, often a hand-to-mouth one, and one their kids don't want. Unfortunately to live a life where money doesn't matter, you need enough capital up front ...


----------



## mrypg9

BaguetteMan said:


> I would love the idea of living this lifestyle. Someone else has commented: money isn't every thing"
> 
> That's true provided you have enough money to buy the finca and get it the way you want it, then stock it with animals etc. in the first place. The 'Good Life' is just that IF you can afford it. For some people (I'm thinking of people living a peasant life in rural Spain/Italy/Greece) this type of existence is a hard one, often a hand-to-mouth one, and one their kids don't want. Unfortunately to live a life where money doesn't matter, you need enough capital up front ...


Very true.

And...

*Too many people are blinkered into thinking that you must have a well paid job because you must buy a big house, and you must have gadgets, and you must have nice furniture, and you must have a newer car than your friends and neighbours and the list goes on*

Too many people assume that people who have different views on what constitutes a 'good life' are incapable of thinking for themselves.
That was the first comment of that judgmental type on this thread.


----------



## baldilocks

zx10r-Al said:


> Too many people are blinkered into thinking that you must have a well paid job because you must buy a big house, and you must have gadgets, and you must have nice furniture, and you must have a newer car than your friends and neighbours and the list goes on.


That, pretty much, sums up the attitudes of many expats who come here trying to carry on the way they did before. 

I have mentioned before that the majority of vehicles in the road where I live are more than 14 years old. Ours (2009 vintage) is one of the newer ones. But most of the people in our road are Spanish and family history and memories, having lived through the privations of the last hundred years, are engraved on the families' hearts. They are not poor and, in fact some of them are well-off, very well-off but that is because they don't believe in waste. Neither do we. The furniture (apart from beds) in our house is mostly second-hand. Why do we need to waste money on 'new' which may be of a lower quality than what we already have?


----------



## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> That, pretty much, sums up the attitudes of many expats who come here trying to carry on the way they did before.
> 
> I have mentioned before that the majority of vehicles in the road where I live are more than 14 years old. Ours (2009 vintage) is one of the newer ones. But most of the people in our road are Spanish and family history and memories, having lived through the privations of the last hundred years, are engraved on the families' hearts. They are not poor and, in fact some of them are well-off, very well-off but that is because they don't believe in waste. Neither do we. The furniture (apart from beds) in our house is mostly second-hand. Why do we need to waste money on 'new' which may be of a lower quality than what we already have?


Because that's what people choose to do, Baldy. Of their own free will. Why shouldn't retired people who come to Spain 'carry on as they did before'? People who choose to buy new cars or furniture are not 'blinkered' or brainwashed. They are spending their hard-earned money as they wish and, incidentally, by doing so are helping keep people in shops, offices and factories in work.
Last month I bought a second-hand car. I could have bought a new one but I chose not to. That doesn't make me a 'better' person and the assumption that some people seem to have that making different lifestyle choices somehow confers moral superiority is arrogant, especially when so doing relies on bending or breaking the laws and rules to suit their convenience.
There is no set of rules on 'the way of life you should live in Spain'.


----------



## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> That, pretty much, sums up the attitudes of many expats who come here trying to carry on the way they did before.
> 
> I have mentioned before that the majority of vehicles in the road where I live are more than 14 years old. Ours (2009 vintage) is one of the newer ones. But most of the people in our road are Spanish and family history and memories, having lived through the privations of the last hundred years, are engraved on the families' hearts. s ?


Since when have family history and memories been tied up with the age of the car you drive
Many people who have lived through privations are only too pleased to be able to buy new things of their choice. They may be sick of hand-me downs, old unreliable cars, scratched and scuffed old tables and chairs.
If I went out tomorrow and refurnished the house from Cortes Ingles and bought myself a Bentley Continental, that would in no way affect my family memories and history. That could be because I know the true value of those things and know they have nothing to do with material possessions.


----------



## oronero

Freedom of choice, that's what a certain amount of money can provide you with, be it buying knew, repairing what you have or any other option.

I, like Baldilocks, try to make things last so that I do not have to keep on spending money and working to replenish the pot!

Given the amount of depreciation that new vehicles experience in the UK I have always felt that buying new seemed silly, though seeing how they depreciate at a much slower rate in Portugal, not sure about Spain, then I may purchase a new model once I am there.

Though saying that I have bought a new vehicle in the UK within the last 12 years and have watched it's value increase over three times what I paid for it, I just like being sensible or trying to be with my money...it is hard earning money but too easy to spend!.


----------



## Megsmum

Horlics said:


> I think the UK has full employment. If an unskilled bloke from Poland or Romania can turn up and earn 280 UKP a day within a couple of months of getting there, then the 1.8 million not working must be doing so through choice, inability either physically or mentally, or just too lazy.
> 
> I think there's a lot of exploitation in the UK, but if you want work it's there.


I am afraid this is not exactly true. Before we moved here, as many of you know, my husband had an operation on his Spine, which meant he could no longer work in the construction industry. Try getting a job in your 50's, with a mere 35 yrs of constructions skills, try applying for a shelf stacking job in Tesco's( because you are the sort of person who does not want to have to sign on,) and then imagine the sheer embarrassment and shame when rejections come through via the internet, because you cannot even get past sending in an application form. SO not everyone who is unemployed does so through choice. My husband was willing to take on any menial job... is not stupid, and ran his own business for over 30years.



pittstop said:


> The only reason unskilled foreign workers CAN get work is because they are willing to work without a contract and possibly below the minimum wage cash in hand. Don't equate exploitation with recovery from the crisis.


YEP towards the end of my husbands construction business, very often he would turn up to quote for a job, to then be told that Chummy down the road could do it cheaper. Yes he could because he did not pay tax etc



baldilocks said:


> If you have researched properly, it isn't a problem. I started with a list of 7 countries and whittled them down (not intentionally but if they don't come up to what we wanted, they were out) and ended up with Spain. Then we carried out the same process with areas/towns, etc. Now over six years later we are all the more certain that all our choices were the right ones.
> 
> And Yes, we did commit. Sold up lock stock and barrel, fully committed to making it work. It's like marriage, if you want to keep a few old flames flickering, just in case the marriage doesn't go quite the way you hope, then it never will!


Agree............. We HAD to sell up lock stock and barrel, there is no way we could afford to buy/rent here and keep a house in the UK.



zx10r-Al said:


> There is another way, you won't ever be rich, but you will be fit, healthy and happy. Buy a finca and work it!
> I know a few people who have bought a finca, they harvest rainwater when they can, have a simple solar system for electricity and live a basic, off-grid life with no worries. Other than the cost of the food they can't produce themselves, and nominal land tax, they almost live for free. Milk from their goats, eggs from their chickens, growing fruit and veg, plus they farm the olives. Depending upon the quality and the harvest, one friend can earn around €2000 from his olive harvest, which more than covers his €20-something annual land tax. If you over-produce something you grow particularly well, you can trade it with others for things you need. The pruning gives them wood for heating and cooking, they wash their clothes by hand, and they are the happiest ex-pats I have ever come across in Spain. Too many people are blinkered into thinking that you must have a well paid job because you must buy a big house, and you must have gadgets, and you must have nice furniture, and you must have a newer car than your friends and neighbours and the list goes on.



LOL I love this, yes we have a small finca (hectare) we live off grid and are working hard to get to a self sufficient base. YEP Chickens, ducks and goats are arriving in July. Solar, well water and pozzo *****. Recently had permission form forest authorities to cut oak (protected here) we have had guys come down to burn the cuttings for charcoal. We earn nothing from the Finca but this is something we could never have done in the UK You want to be self sufficient in the UK you have to have MONEY I could not buy what I have here for the money we paid. PLUS we could have bought an apartment or villa near the coast but what would we do at 55 we still need something to keep is occupied, the Finca is the perfect life for us

BACK to the OP

IF you need to work, as far as I am concerned its a no no UNLESS you are guaranteed something before you come. Many contracts here are temporary and unemployment is still high. I have been offered work, but only because I am a native English speaker, however I am holding off until next year, I do not need to work, and do not want to rush into it now. The caveat to all this is that I am not in Andalusia and my region of Spain is still one of the poorest regions in Spain and always has been


----------



## mrypg9

oronero said:


> Freedom of choice, that's what a certain amount of money can provide you with, be it buying knew, repairing what you have or any other option.
> 
> I, like Baldilocks, try to make things last so that I do not have to keep on spending money and working to replenish the pot!
> 
> Given the amount of depreciation that new vehicles experience in the UK I have always felt that buying new seemed silly, though seeing how they depreciate at a much slower rate in Portugal, not sure about Spain, then I may purchase a new model once I am there.
> 
> Though saying that I have bought a new vehicle in the UK within the last 12 years and have watched it's value increase over three times what I paid for it, I just like being sensible or trying to be with my money...it is hard earning money but too easy to spend!.


Yes, no money, no choice. Well said. Some people choose a simple life, others are obliged to.

I couldn't see the point of buying a new car here, in fact I have only once in my life bought a brand new car. I've bought demonstrators with very few clocked km but the thought that the moment you pay the money and drive your new car away it's worth less than the second you got into the driver's seat puts me off. Plus a look around any car park here in Spain and you'll find very few vehicles without a scrape or dent.  We came here with a nearly new Merc but soon packed that off to the UK to be sold. 

We have furniture we bought decades ago, good but not really expensive stuff. We don't change things unless we have to. I quite like good used furniture as IKEA stuff is good VFM and stylish but doesn't appeal in the same way that interesting pieces with a 'history' do. There is a second-hand furniture shop near us which is like Aladdin's Cave...some really nice, inexpensive stuff. 
We furnished our study with desk, table and chairs and sofas from that shop. I'm sitting typing this at an old pine desk, I think it cost 100 euros, maybe less. I remember that we furnished the whole room including pictures and light fittings for under 500 euros.
But if we all stopped buying new the economy would be in an even worse state.

Strangely, although I don't mind sitting on a second-hand chair I'm not comfortable with second-hand clothes, maybe because that's mainly what I had as a child, that and itchy woollen things my mum knitted.


----------



## astraone

*Update*

Hello,


I have been offered a job in the South of Spain and found a place that I plan to view to live in.


----------



## Horlics

Troll ALERT!

This person can not possibly have been offered a job, there are 7 million Spaniards in the queue.

(astraone.... forgive the above, i believe you, and congratulations!)




astraone said:


> Hello,
> 
> 
> I have been offered a job in the South of Spain and found a place that I plan to view to live in.


----------



## mrypg9

Horlics said:


> Troll ALERT!
> 
> This person can not possibly have been offered a job, there are 7 million Spaniards in the queue.
> 
> (astraone.... forgive the above, i believe you, and congratulations!)


Don't be silly, Horlics No-one has said it's IMPOSSIBLE to get a job. We've pointed out that it's very difficult. Of course some people will get jobs. People retire, move to other jobs, die even, and need replacing.
Hopefully astraone's job is contracted and well-paid.

So now as you point out there are only 6999999 Spaniards and others looking for work....


----------



## Pesky Wesky

astraone said:


> Hello,
> 
> 
> I have been offered a job in the South of Spain and found a place that I plan to view to live in.


Great!
Are you willing to give any more info on the job? People are always wanting to know about the job situation so it'd be great to get some up to date info about what kind of job, conditions and how you found it


----------



## astraone

Hello,

I have contacted a Company that I already know in Northern Spain about working in Southern Spain,there is potential for work in that area,I doubt I will earn thousands but for me if I can earn enough to eat and pay the bills without touching my bulk savings then this is ok.

For me going to Spain is about the more laid back way of life,sunshine,food,people,etc.
I also have another plan to make some money in addition to the job,I am reluctant to say what I will be doing at this time in Spain but I know there is so much negativity from some people on this forum


----------



## baldilocks

astraone said:


> Hello,
> 
> I have contacted a Company that I already know in Northern Spain about working in Southern Spain,there is potential for work in that area,I doubt I will earn thousands but for me if I can earn enough to eat and pay the bills without touching my bulk savings then this is ok.
> 
> For me going to Spain is about the more laid back way of life,sunshine,food,people,etc.
> I also have another plan to make some money in addition to the job,I am reluctant to say what I will be doing at this time in Spain but I know there is so much negativity from some people on this forum


It is not negativity trying to stop people who believe their dreams override reality making a huge mess of their lives and the lives of others especially when there are no Social Security bail-outs available. We try to be practical in what we advise people to do, taking into account the circumstances that they relate to us. We see far too many people come to Spain with no job, no money, no prospects and no hope, not even the fare back to UK so we don't paint a picture that is rosier than it really is - that would be sheer irresponsibility on our part.


----------



## mrypg9

astraone said:


> Hello,
> 
> I have contacted a Company that I already know in Northern Spain about working in Southern Spain,there is potential for work in that area,I doubt I will earn thousands but for me if I can earn enough to eat and pay the bills without touching my bulk savings then this is ok.
> 
> For me going to Spain is about the more laid back way of life,sunshine,food,people,etc.
> I also have another plan to make some money in addition to the job,I am reluctant to say what I will be doing at this time in Spain but I know there is so much negativity from some people on this forum


I'll say it again...negativity is a state of mind. Facts on the ground constitute reality. Not clear if you actually have a contracted job or not?

But I dare say the almost 40% unemployed in my town feel pretty negative about their job prospects, as do the millions or so long-term unemployed existing on less than 500 euros a month or on nothing..


----------



## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> It is not negativity trying to stop people who believe their dreams override reality making a huge mess of their lives and the lives of others especially when there are no Social Security bail-outs available. We try to be practical in what we advise people to do, taking into account the circumstances that they relate to us. We see far too many people come to Spain with no job, no money, no prospects and no hope, not even the fare back to UK so we don't paint a picture that is rosier than it really is - that would be sheer irresponsibility on our part.


We know nothing....we only live here, some of us like Albo and PW work and have Spanish family here and live our lives mainly outside the immigrant 'box'.


----------



## oronero

...so if I were to move over with 10K Euros, sign up for 'autonomo' as an independent beach sweeper and invest my my lump sum on the Euro millions weekly draw, would that not be a good idea? :fingerscrossed:



:flypig:


----------



## tonymar

oronero said:


> ...so if I were to move over with 10K Euros, sign up for 'autonomo' as an independent beach sweeper and invest my my lump sum on the Euro millions weekly draw, would that not be a good idea? :fingerscrossed:
> 
> 
> 
> :flypig:


Sounds like a good plan ! do you think it would work with 10 € ( havent got 10k )


----------



## BaguetteMan

oronero said:


> ...so if I were to move over with 10K Euros, sign up for 'autonomo' as an independent beach sweeper and invest my my lump sum on the Euro millions weekly draw, would that not be a good idea? :fingerscrossed: :flypig:


It's a great idea PROVIDED you chose the correct lottery numbers - I mean how difficult can that be? There's only fifty to chose from


----------



## mrypg9

oronero said:


> ...so if I were to move over with 10K Euros, sign up for 'autonomo' as an independent beach sweeper and invest my my lump sum on the Euro millions weekly draw, would that not be a good idea? :fingerscrossed:
> 
> 
> 
> :flypig:


Well, look at it this way: someone must win. So why not you?

And if you did, you'd probably tell us. The millions who didn't win wouldn't. A bit like getting a job?


----------



## oronero

tonymar said:


> Sounds like a good plan ! do you think it would work with 10 € ( havent got 10k )


I am sure that if you opened up a kiosk at the airport selling shares in your 'Euro Millions Lotto Investment Plan' offering a modest 10% return on a successful and positive outcome would have a multitude of people subscribing. 

Just make sure that you make them aware that investments do not always necessarily move in a positive direction! 

I think that your 10Euro investment should cover the kiosk rental for the first week, then it will be rolling in...just don't forget the small print and have it all written in Spanish for the newbies!


----------



## tonymar

oronero said:


> I am sure that if you opened up a kiosk at the airport selling shares in your 'Euro Millions Lotto Investment Plan' offering a modest 10% return on a successful and positive outcome would have a multitude of people subscribing.
> 
> Just make sure that you make them aware that investments do not always necessarily move in a positive direction!
> 
> I think that your 10Euro investment should cover the kiosk rental for the first week, then it will be rolling in...just don't forget the small print and have it all written in Spanish for the newbies!


Sorted , this time next year Ill be a millionaire !! 

I just love Spain the land of opportunities


----------



## Pesky Wesky

astraone said:


> Hello,
> 
> I have contacted a Company that I already know in Northern Spain about working in Southern Spain,there is potential for work in that area,I doubt I will earn thousands but for me if I can earn enough to eat and pay the bills without touching my bulk savings then this is ok.
> 
> For me going to Spain is about the more laid back way of life,sunshine,food,people,etc.
> I also have another plan to make some money in addition to the job,I am reluctant to say what I will be doing at this time in Spain but I know there is so much negativity from some people on this forum


I don't blame you for not baring all, but not because of encountering negativity.

It is a gross misunderstanding to interpret discouraging remarks about looking for work or a better life in Spain as negativity. After all we are living here and we do see "life" and have first hand experience.
( I myself live and work in a large town 30 miles away from the capital on an urbanización which is 95% Spanish. My Spanish husband also works in the public sector and my Spanish daughter is doing a degree at a public uni. My inlaws and Spanish family, of which there are nearly 50, live in the north. )
However, I did find many of the comments about "the simple life" unhelpful and subjective.

Hope you will tell us how the job goes and about your first steps living in Spain. Is it a Spanish company or British?


----------



## Lynn R

mrypg9 said:


> Don't be silly, Horlics No-one has said it's IMPOSSIBLE to get a job. We've pointed out that it's very difficult. Of course some people will get jobs. People retire, move to other jobs, die even, and need replacing.
> Hopefully astraone's job is contracted and well-paid.
> 
> So now as you point out there are only 6999999 Spaniards and others looking for work....


I met a young British woman the other day who is renting a house near me with her Ecuadorian husband. I asked if she was working, and she said yes. Wonderful, I thought. She went on to explain that she is working as a home care assistant in Malaga, and leaves home here in Velez at 6.30 am and gets home at 11.30 pm. Not so wonderful after all.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Lynn R said:


> I met a young British woman the other day who is renting a house near me with her Ecuadorian husband. I asked if she was working, and she said yes. Wonderful, I thought. She went on to explain that she is working as a home care assistant in Malaga, and leaves home here in Velez at 6.30 am and gets home at 11.30 pm. Not so wonderful after all.


I wonder if their reasons for coming to Spain include* having a better quality of life* and _*enjoying the laid back lifestyle*_!

In fact they are probably here because it's easier for both her and him to stay in Spain than the UK for example, but it does illustrate what so many people try to tell the people who want to come to Spain. That even if you were to find work it's likely to be a low quality job with worse pay and conditions - not always of course, but generally speaking.


----------



## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> I wonder if their reasons for coming to Spain include* having a better quality of life* and _*enjoying the laid back lifestyle*_!
> 
> In fact they are probably here because it's easier for both her and him to stay in Spain than the UK for example, but it does illustrate what so many people try to tell the people who want to come to Spain. That even if you were to find work it's likely to be a low quality job with worse pay and conditions - not always of course, but generally speaking.



new students of mine - usually newbies to Spain - are always amazed when I tell them what hours I work - Monday to Friday I start at 09:30 & work til 2pm or 3pm & then start again at 4 or 5 & go through til 7:30 or 8:30 - pretty much without a break during the two 'shifts'

luckily I have a 2 minute walk to work, so no travelling time - but people working in nearby shops are working at least those hours & would usually have some travelling as well - all the small shops here still close for siesta


----------



## jojo

Pesky Wesky said:


> I wonder if their reasons for coming to Spain include* having a better quality of life* and _*enjoying the laid back lifestyle*_!
> 
> In fact they are probably here because it's easier for both her and him to stay in Spain than the UK for example, but it does illustrate what so many people try to tell the people who want to come to Spain. That even if you were to find work it's likely to be a low quality job with worse pay and conditions - not always of course, but generally speaking.


That probably hits the nail on the head. So many people want to move to Spain because the dream, their thoughts are that its a better quality of life and its laid back. The negativity comes from those who know that isnt true. If those days existed at all, they have long since gone. Spain is a harsh country to live in if you need to earn a living. Spain has taxes, contribution based welfare and healthcare and you cant just arrive, get a little job to cover your costs and sit by the pool. You have to get contracted employment which is hard in a country with mass unemployment, especially if you're not fluent with the language, there are many rules and regulations, many things you can and cant do. 

So its not so much negativity, as honesty and explaining that its not the easy, carefree existence that folk hope it might me

Jo xxxx


----------



## mrypg9

Don't get me wrong, if I had to I'd take any job going, scrubbing loos, sweeping streets....but no way would I leave the security of the UK where no-one starves, no-one is refused medical care and the police and bureaucracy are to a large measure accountable to take menial low-paid work in another country, whether Spain or Slovakia.
No-one can be 'laid-back' if they are counting their last cent to see if they can afford to eat. It's not easy to enjoy sunshine when you're on your feet from morning to night waiting tables.
I often wonder what must be lacking in people's lives that six or seven months of sunshine and a mild climate in winter is so attractive, when you do not have an income sufficient to enjoy these things, which are accessories to a good life, not main components like family, friends, health and security.


----------



## oronero

mrypg9 said:


> Don't get me wrong, if I had to I'd take any job going, scrubbing loos, sweeping streets....but no way would I leave the security of the UK where no-one starves, no-one is refused medical care and the police and bureaucracy are to a large measure accountable to take menial low-paid work in another country, whether Spain or Slovakia.


With regards to the UK, nobody starves as there is the safety net of food banks, as for medical care try moving to different areas every couple of years and then finding an NHS registered dentist that will accept you, Society is slowly crumbling in the UK, the Golden years are well and truely over there.



mrypg9 said:


> No-one can be 'laid-back' if they are counting their last cent to see if they can afford to eat. It's not easy to enjoy sunshine when you're on your feet from morning to night waiting tables.


Very true, a certain amount of wealth or no need for money makes all the difference.



mrypg9 said:


> I often wonder what must be lacking in people's lives that six or seven months of sunshine and a mild climate in winter is so attractive, when you do not have an income sufficient to enjoy these things, which are accessories to a good life, not main components like family, friends, health and security.


The UK is not the land of milk and honey, yes some very hard working people have a luxurious life with all the trappings whilst other very hard working people have almost nothing!


----------



## jojo

oronero said:


> With regards to the UK, nobody starves as there is the safety net of food banks, as for medical care try moving to different areas every couple of years and then finding an NHS registered dentist that will accept you, Society is slowly crumbling in the UK, the Golden years are well and truely over there.
> 
> 
> 
> Very true, a certain amount of wealth or no need for money makes all the difference.
> 
> 
> 
> The UK is not the land of milk and honey, yes some very hard working people have a luxurious life with all the trappings whilst other very hard working people have almost nothing!


In the UK, there is a very good welfare system. I know lots of people who use it to their full advantage and wouldnt go near a food bank lol, they dont need to!!!! However, in Spain, if you have no money, no job and havent ever contributed into the Spanish system, you'd be given nothing, no free healthcare, housing benefits, dole money, child benefits, JSA, help with bills - not even your plane fare home - I'm not even sure you'd be very welcome at a food bank. Whatever you say and think of the UK and I do to agree to a point, it really is a very safe and easy country to live in and its not til you leave and see how it is in other countries that you realise how lucky we are

Jo xxx


----------



## alborino

jojo said:


> Whatever you say and think of the UK and I do to agree to a point, it really is a very safe and easy country to live in and its not til you leave and see how it is in other countries that you realise how lucky we are
> 
> Jo xxx


My spanish cousin who lives near Seville after years of unemployment has a job ( I'm being serious she started a few weeks back)

Six days a week she does 8am to 8pm selling lottery tickets. And she can earn 800 Euros a month lane:

Sadly to get that she has to sell every ticket and you'll never guess??? No one ever has 

She isn't thick. She had an education. In the UK she'd have a job but Oronero is right she would possibly have to wait a few months to get a NHS dentist


----------



## mrypg9

oronero said:


> With regards to the UK, nobody starves as there is the safety net of food banks, as for medical care try moving to different areas every couple of years and then finding an NHS registered dentist that will accept you, Society is slowly crumbling in the UK, the Golden years are well and truely over there.
> 
> 
> 
> Very true, a certain amount of wealth or no need for money makes all the difference.
> 
> 
> 
> The UK is not the land of milk and honey, yes some very hard working people have a luxurious life with all the trappings whilst other very hard working people have almost nothing!


Whilst not being the 'land of milk and honey' - who said it was? - anyone who has travelled will know that the UK for all its recent decline and the obscene gap between rich and poor is still one of the kindest places to live in the world. The 'Golden Years' those roughly from 1945 to 1975, the years the French call 'les treintes glorieuses' are over everywhere apart from the very many areas of the globe that never experienced them.
In spite of the fact that almost a million jobs are now part-time or zero-hours, there are jobs, something many Spaniards would appreciate. Yes, people use food banks. But there are no food banks in Somalia.
The fact that some people work hard and get rich whilst others work equally hard or harder and stay poor is an ancient, global phenomenum. There were rich and poor in Ancient Egypt.
The level at which one is officially described as 'living in poverty' in the UK is set at a purely arbitrary percentage of average earnings, 60%. All poverty is relative. Poverty can also be defined as having to buy cheap trainers rather than Nikes, buying your jeans from the market rather than Earl or CK. 
I'm not for one moment denying that there is relative poverty in the UK, some as a result of the way the odds are stacked, some because of government policies,some because of poor choices. 
But compared to Spain, yes, the UK is indeed seen as a land of milk and honey which is why so many young and not-so-young Spaniards are emigrating there.
Compared to Slovakia, Lithuania, Latvia, Poland , even the Czech Republic, yes, the UK is also a land of milk and honey.
Not to mention Albania, Romania and Bulgaria.
We just have to apply a little perspective.


----------



## mrypg9

Incidentally, the fact that it is very difficult to find a dentist registered with the NHS really cannot be construed as a sign that 'society is crumbling'. Anyone in urgent need of dental treatment will get it, even if it's at the Emergency Department of the nearest NHS Trust Hospital.
I would agree that society is much less cohesive than pre-Thatcher, for all sorts of reasons, immigration being one. Communities can easily disintegrate when there are too many people with other cultural norms to integrate, let alone assimilate. The unpopularity of marriage, divorce, single parent families, people moving away to find work, the emphasis on the individual rather than the collective, all of these contribute to the break-up of families and the weakening of communities.
Moving to Spain away from roots and family might be another minor contributing factor...


----------



## Lynn R

Pesky Wesky said:


> I wonder if their reasons for coming to Spain include* having a better quality of life* and _*enjoying the laid back lifestyle*_!
> 
> In fact they are probably here because it's easier for both her and him to stay in Spain than the UK for example, but it does illustrate what so many people try to tell the people who want to come to Spain. That even if you were to find work it's likely to be a low quality job with worse pay and conditions - not always of course, but generally speaking.


She came to Spain as a teenager with her parents when they moved here - there's an object lesson there somewhere for all those who enquire about moving over with older children, IMO. Apparently she's been living less than 200m from me for 2 years and I'd never laid eyes on her before 2 days ago - no wonder, really, if those are the hours the poor girl has to keep as I'm not likely to be running into her in the street very often.


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## Isobella

I had to use the emergency dental clinic in the UK last year. Sunday morning and free too. I know some areas find it difficult to get A NHS dentist but in London, Surrey and Sussex there are adverts that they are accepting patients. Perhaps other areas too. Things are by no means perfect in UK, always room for reform but compared with other places it's ok....sort of

Our neighbour in Spain has a decent job, has worked for an engineering factory since leaving school. He travels from San Pedro de Alcantara to Malaga 6 days per week and leaves at 6.30am for the hour or so commute. Some laid back lifestyle, he could be anywhere in Europe. The laid back life is for people with a decent income without working.


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## jojo

I think that the problem historically is that people in the UK see Spain as this hot, tranquill place where everyone moves slowly, no one worries about paying taxes, bills, overheads etc. and you can just makes enough money to pay a few bills by cleaning pools, villa cleaning, a bit of bar work, building work..... and the rest of the time, live the dream.

maybe in the 70s and 80s that was possible. But Spain now is in the EU, it hasnt recovered from the recession, the building industry has collapsed and the government are now chasing for taxes and making sure that people are paying their way, just as we do in the UK accept the benefit in Spain, unlike the UK is contribution based - if you dont pay in, you dont get anything out. 

Jo xxx


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## ABERAFON

oronero said:


> With regards to the UK, nobody starves as there is the safety net of food banks, as for medical care try moving to different areas every couple of years and then finding an NHS registered dentist that will accept you, Society is slowly crumbling in the UK, the Golden years are well and truely over there.
> 
> 
> 
> Very true, a certain amount of wealth or no need for money makes all the difference.
> 
> 
> 
> The UK is not the land of milk and honey, yes some very hard working people have a luxurious life with all the trappings whilst other very hard working people have almost nothing![/QUOTE
> 
> The safety net in the UK is not food banks, it is the totality of the welfare state, no one is really poor in the UK, short of money yes but poor no. I have never had any problems getting an NHS dentist and I have moved house 17 times due to my work in my life. I have always been impressed by the NHS and I have worked hard and managed to have a very good life in the UK, but I got very good degrees and continued to train and acquire new skills throughout my life. I have been approached offered jobs in Canada, the USA and New Zealand but chose to stay in the UK. If I had no real skills and had to do a job on minimum wage then I would find it hard, but I would still have the safety net. I did not want that type of life, even though I came from a poor background with a wonderful single mum who did go out cleaning to make ends meet, so when I left school I spent years building up my qualifications and skills, getting a PhD by researching for it whilst I worked full time. I have lived and worked in Spain and I really like Spain, its beauty and environment. I hated its bureaucracy, its corruption, its lack of concern for both people and animals, the lack of accountability of its officials and its rules and restrictions. None of that is an issue in the UK and its society is not crumbling, it does however, have a problem with rapid immigration both from the EU and worldwide that has made it impossibly to integrate and plan. It is now a big election issue but even with that I don't think there is another country in the world that I would rather be a citizen of or an employee in. Having said that I really love Spain and like to spend as much time as possible there but would never live there full time as I really do like the safety of the UK, warts and all.


----------



## baldilocks

ABERAFON said:


> oronero said:
> 
> 
> 
> With regards to the UK, nobody starves as there is the safety net of food banks, as for medical care try moving to different areas every couple of years and then finding an NHS registered dentist that will accept you, Society is slowly crumbling in the UK, the Golden years are well and truely over there.
> 
> 
> 
> Very true, a certain amount of wealth or no need for money makes all the difference.
> 
> 
> 
> The UK is not the land of milk and honey, yes some very hard working people have a luxurious life with all the trappings whilst other very hard working people have almost nothing![/QUOTE
> 
> The safety net in the UK is not food banks, it is the totality of the welfare state, no one is really poor in the UK, short of money yes but poor no. I have never had any problems getting an NHS dentist and I have moved house 17 times due to my work in my life. I have always been impressed by the NHS and I have worked hard and managed to have a very good life in the UK, but I got very good degrees and continued to train and acquire new skills throughout my life. I have been approached offered jobs in Canada, the USA and New Zealand but chose to stay in the UK. If I had no real skills and had to do a job on minimum wage then I would find it hard, but I would still have the safety net. I did not want that type of life, even though I came from a poor background with a wonderful single mum who did go out cleaning to make ends meet, so when I left school I spent years building up my qualifications and skills, getting a PhD by researching for it whilst I worked full time. I have lived and worked in Spain and I really like Spain, its beauty and environment. I hated its bureaucracy, its corruption, its lack of concern for both people and animals, the lack of accountability of its officials and its rules and restrictions. None of that is an issue in the UK and its society is not crumbling, it does however, have a problem with rapid immigration both from the EU and worldwide that has made it impossibly to integrate and plan. It is now a big election issue but even with that I don't think there is another country in the world that I would rather be a citizen of or an employee in. Having said that I really love Spain and like to spend as much time as possible there but would never live there full time as I really do like the safety of the UK, warts and all.
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> its beauty and environment. I hated its bureaucracy, its corruption, its lack of concern for people, the lack of accountability of its officials and its rules and restrictions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *You have all that in the UK as well or have you been living in an underground bunker?
Click to expand...


----------



## ABERAFON

baldilocks said:


> ABERAFON said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have all that in the UK as well or have you been living in an underground bunker?
> 
> 
> 
> True We have great beauty and environment, particularly where I have lived. But I don't live in a bunker and I don't believe we have anything like the other things I raised in the UK compared to Spain and many other South and Eastern European countries. As for bureaucracy we have nothing compared to Spain or Italy - they have made it into an art form. As I said I love Spain but I have no delusions about it and I love Jaen, such a spiritual area, you are lucky to have settled there
Click to expand...


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## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> ABERAFON said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have all that in the UK as well or have you been living in an underground bunker?
> 
> 
> 
> You'll find lack of concern everywhere. But not even in the Czech Republic is there corruption to match that in Spain. In my neck of the woods practically every other Alcalde has been banged up for corruption. Even trades unions have corrupt officials.
> In all my decades in political life in the UK I have never encountered the institutionalized corruption that permeates public life here.
> Cruelty to people and animals....yes, happens in the UK. But gender violence and machismo in society in general is still a sad fact of life in Spain whereas in the UK attitudes are very different from even ten years ago.
> Animal cruelty....until I came to Spain I had no idea that animals could be treated so casually and cruelly. Spend a week in our kennels and you will be amazed that some people can be so inhuman. Yet a dog left tied to railings in a train station gets huge media coverage in the UK....and he was abandoned with a suitcase containing food, a toy and his pillow.
> I like my life in Spain but paradise it is not. Very many things still leave much to be desired....corruption, nepotism, violence and discrimination towards women, inadequate welfare provision, an over mighty Church...these things exist alongside the many good and positive things and I can't pretend they don't.
> I live in Spain, not Heaven.
> Not at present anyway and hopefully not for a long time yet
Click to expand...


----------



## baldilocks

ABERAFON said:


> baldilocks said:
> 
> 
> 
> True We have great beauty and environment, particularly where I have lived. But I don't live in a bunker and I don't believe we have anything like the other things I raised in the UK compared to Spain and many other South and Eastern European countries. As for bureaucracy we have nothing compared to Spain or Italy - they have made it into an art form. As I said I love Spain but I have no delusions about it and I love Jaen, such a spiritual area, you are lucky to have settled there
> 
> 
> 
> and the "bureaucracy, its corruption, its lack of concern for people, the lack of accountability of its officials and its rules and restrictions"
> 
> Have you looked at what MPs , Local authority councillors, many local government officers (who turn a blind eye to abuse, etc.) and their lack of accountability, rules and restrictions if you just want to do something to your own house, but of course if you have members of the planning committee in your back pocket... etc.???
> 
> As for Jaén, I keep telling people it takes research, research, research if you want to make a successful move.
Click to expand...


----------



## ABERAFON

mrypg9 said:


> baldilocks said:
> 
> 
> 
> You'll find lack of concern everywhere. But not even in the Czech Republic is there corruption to match that in Spain. In my neck of the woods practically every other Alcalde has been banged up for corruption. Even trades unions have corrupt officials.
> In all my decades in political life in the UK I have never encountered the institutionalized corruption that permeates public life here.
> Cruelty to people and animals....yes, happens in the UK. But gender violence and machismo in society in general is still a sad fact of life in Spain whereas in the UK attitudes are very different from even ten years ago.
> Animal cruelty....until I came to Spain I had no idea that animals could be treated so casually and cruelly. Spend a week in our kennels and you will be amazed that some people can be so inhuman. Yet a dog left tied to railings in a train station gets huge media coverage in the UK....and he was abandoned with a suitcase containing food, a toy and his pillow.
> I like my life in Spain but paradise it is not. Very many things still leave much to be desired....corruption, nepotism, violence and discrimination towards women, inadequate welfare provision, an over mighty Church...these things exist alongside the many good and positive things and I can't pretend they don't.
> I live in Spain, not Heaven.
> Not at present anyway and hopefully not for a long time yet
> 
> 
> 
> Could not agree more. As for living in heaven, lets hope neither of us do that for quite some time yet :fingerscrossed:
Click to expand...


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## Rabbitcat

Nowhere is perfect and its futile looking for somewhere that is


----------



## ABERAFON

baldilocks said:


> ABERAFON said:
> 
> 
> 
> and the "bureaucracy, its corruption, its lack of concern for people, the lack of accountability of its officials and its rules and restrictions"
> 
> Have you looked at what MPs , Local authority councillors, many local government officers (who turn a blind eye to abuse, etc.) and their lack of accountability, rules and restrictions if you just want to do something to your own house, but of course if you have members of the planning committee in your back pocket... etc.???
> 
> As for Jaén, I keep telling people it takes research, research, research if you want to make a successful move.
> 
> 
> 
> As for the child abuse scandal I agree with you but in time many will be brought to book now as there is outrage in the UK and the government are susceptible to public pressure in the UK.
> 
> I think you are a bit out of touch with planning laws here, you can build without consents, and reference to planners, many things now in the UK. You don't need licences to paint or do bathrooms or anything else and of course in Spain Local Mayors probably make up a large percentage of the prison population at present
Click to expand...


----------



## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> ABERAFON said:
> 
> 
> 
> and the "bureaucracy, its corruption, its lack of concern for people, the lack of accountability of its officials and its rules and restrictions"
> 
> Have you looked at what MPs , Local authority councillors, many local government officers (who turn a blind eye to abuse, etc.) and their lack of accountability, rules and restrictions if you just want to do something to your own house, but of course if you have members of the planning committee in your back pocket... etc.???
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. And I see that nothing in the UK compares to the corruption and lack of accountability in Spain.
> You know, it's easy to accuse people of 'taking backhanders' but I have sat on Planning Committees and I can tell you it just doesn't work like that . Unlike Spain, you would have to bribe about thirty people, including Councillors, Planning Officers and of course the public and press who attend most meetings.
> There is also the fact that planning decisions have to take place within the framework of the current laws.
> Which is NOTHING like what happens here in Spain where no such transparency exists and all too often one signature is all that is needed for construction projects.
Click to expand...


----------



## ABERAFON

mrypg9 said:


> baldilocks said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. And I see that nothing in the UK compares to the corruption and lack of accountability in Spain.
> You know, it's easy to accuse people of 'taking backhanders' but I have sat on Planning Committees and I can tell you it just doesn't work like that . Unlike Spain, you would have to bribe about thirty people, including Councillors, Planning Officers and of course the public and press who attend most meetings.
> There is also the fact that planning decisions have to take place within the framework of the current laws.
> Which is NOTHING like what happens here in Spain where no such transparency exists and all too often one signature is all that is needed for construction projects.
> 
> 
> 
> I
> 
> I know exactly what you mean, many years ago I was a deputy chief Officer - museum director - and advised chair etc. CE and chief oficers are all accountable for the advice they give and can go to prison for their mistakes. I know of 2 who have but they were not corrupt. However, in recent years there has developed a culture of not accepting responsibility but nevertheless corruption is rare and it is very difficult to corrupt public officials or councillors as there has never really been a culture of public corruption in the UK. I was responsibile once for some years for checking and approving work on listed buildings and in all of my dealing there was never any time that anyone offered me anything to approve any work, I would have informed the police had that happened as I belive all official would do. Councillors nor officer nor civil servants are. Corruptable in my experience and it is rare to find it, I think the last time was T Dan Smith in the 60s. Still. Love Spain though and hve booked my flights from London City to come across for a month in 10 days, can't wait
Click to expand...


----------



## oronero

ABERAFON said:


> I
> 
> I know exactly what you mean, many years ago I was a deputy chief Officer - museum director - and advised chair etc. CE and chief oficers are all accountable for the advice they give and can go to prison for their mistakes. I know of 2 who have but they were not corrupt. However, in recent years there has developed a culture of not accepting responsibility but nevertheless corruption is rare and it is very difficult to corrupt public officials or councillors as there has never really been a culture of public corruption in the UK. I was responsibile once for some years for checking and approving work on listed buildings and in all of my dealing there was never any time that anyone offered me anything to approve any work, I would have informed the police had that happened as I belive all official would do. Councillors nor officer nor civil servants are. Corruptable in my experience and it is rare to find it, I think the last time was T Dan Smith in the 60s. Still. Love Spain though and hve booked my flights from London City to come across for a month in 10 days, can't wait


If you mean corruption by directly handing an official a wad of money then perhaps no....but there are officials who may have work done on their property for a favourable rate, free use of somebody's holiday home, tickets to a concert/ sports event, there are many ways to grease the wheels!

*Aberafon* good on you for being honourable but there are many who are not!


----------



## mrypg9

oronero said:


> *Aberafon* good on you for being honourable but there are many who are not!


Sorry but in my experience of over forty years serving in various elected capacities I beg to differ. The opposite is true in the UK . Many, in fact most are honorable. A few are not. There are codes of conduct regulating what gifts or favours are unacceptable and in my experience they are observed.
It's easy to sling unsubstantiated accusations at public officials whether paid or elected. It annoys me intensely as my colleagues of all Parties were decent people who worked long hours for what they perceived as the good of their communities. Some were stupid, admittedly but none was corrupt. I turned down promotions at work and we often joked that if my partner had put as much effort into her business interests as she did in her political work we would be multi-'millionaires.
There are dishonorable people in all walks of life, not only councillors and MPS, from the benefit cheats to the business people who fiddle their tax and VAT.
I find this culture of casual cynicism at the expense of decent people who choose to give up their time in all good faith to,help,others deeply disturbing, to be honest.


----------



## oronero

mrypg9 said:


> Sorry but in my experience of over forty years serving in various elected capacities I beg to differ. The opposite is true in the UK . Many, in fact most are honorable. A few are not. There are codes of conduct regulating what gifts or favours are unacceptable and in my experience they are observed.
> It's easy to sling unsubstantiated accusations at public officials whether paid or elected. It annoys me intensely as my colleagues of all Parties were decent people who worked long hours for what they perceived as the good of their communities. Some were stupid, admittedly but none was corrupt. I turned down promotions at work and we often joked that if my partner had put as much effort into her business interests as she did in her political work we would be multi-'millionaires.
> There are dishonorable people in all walks of life, not only councillors and MPS, from the benefit cheats to the business people who fiddle their tax and VAT.
> I find this culture of casual cynicism at the expense of decent people who choose to give up their time in all good faith to,help,others deeply disturbing, to be honest.


 ...and likewise not all Spanish officials are corrupt!


----------



## mrypg9

oronero said:


> ...and likewise not all Spanish officials are corrupt!


I didn't say they were what I said was that a culture of corruption exists in Spain and there is no equivalent in the UK. At least efforts are being made too to do something about it here, at last!

I've said before, corruption and nepotism flourish in states that lack a solid tradition of civil society. Communist and fascist states discourage civil society so informal ways of getting things done develop.
As with Franco's Spain, so with socialist states of Eastern Europe.
It will change but will take time as old bad habits die out.


----------



## oronero

Nepotism in the UK today...well I never.

According to my old Lecturer, his son is still sorting the mess that some family nit-wits are causing in the City.

Bank of Bullingdon: why the old school tie network still holds court in the City - London Life - Life & Style - London Evening Standard


----------



## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> Sorry but in my experience of over forty years serving in various elected capacities I beg to differ. The opposite is true in the UK . Many, in fact most are honorable. A few are not. There are codes of conduct regulating what gifts or favours are unacceptable and in my experience they are observed.
> It's easy to sling unsubstantiated accusations at public officials whether paid or elected. It annoys me intensely as my colleagues of all Parties were decent people who worked long hours for what they perceived as the good of their communities. Some were stupid, admittedly but none was corrupt. I turned down promotions at work and we often joked that if my partner had put as much effort into her business interests as she did in her political work we would be multi-'millionaires.
> There are dishonorable people in all walks of life, not only councillors and MPS, from the benefit cheats to the business people who fiddle their tax and VAT.
> I find this culture of casual cynicism at the expense of decent people who choose to give up their time in all good faith to,help,others deeply disturbing, to be honest.


Your experience is obviously different from mine. Having spent a lot of my working life in auditing roles, it has been my job to catch the cheats and fiddlers and those receiving bribes. Many, unfortunately, were required to quietly make restitution and nothing more was said, so I can't quote cases. I have often found that it has been difficult to bring the culprits to book, because many have exuded an air of likeability so it has been an uphill task to find people who are prepared to give evidence against "Dear old...". Most effective has been, being able to name and shame to the faces of the guilty in open committee.


----------



## oronero

A decade back Jimmy Saville was revered...look at how that has turned around!

Cynicism is healthy, being naive or paranoid are the problem.


----------



## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> Your experience is obviously different from mine. Having spent a lot of my working life in auditing roles, it has been my job to catch the cheats and fiddlers and those receiving bribes. Many, unfortunately, were required to quietly make restitution and nothing more was said, so I can't quote cases. I have often found that it has been difficult to bring the culprits to book, because many have exuded an air of likeability so it has been an uphill task to find people who are prepared to give evidence against "Dear old...". Most effective has been, being able to name and shame to the faces of the guilty in open committee.


I am sure that those you caught constituted a minority of the millions in public service. Certainly not the majority. 
I didn't know you audited local authorities, Baldy.....
As most things in local government are decided in open committee or by a small group of elected and paid officials with minutes recorded and public transparency it is as I have said easier to make accusations than provide solid evidence.
And what if there were all this corruption you say exists? With whom would you replace MPs and local Councillors? Joe Stalin, Castro and Franco didn't have any of this nonsense about freely elected representatives but from what I've read their moral compass was way off kilter


----------



## mrypg9

oronero said:


> A decade back Jimmy Saville was revered...look at how that has turned around!
> 
> Cynicism is healthy, being naive or paranoid are the problem.


Cynicism is NEVER healthy. In fact it is profoundly unhealthy and dangerous in that it is not that far off nihilism. The greatest of all twentieth century cynics were Franco, Mussolini, Hitler and Stalin. Why? Because they had not a shred of belief in the existence of goodness, integrity or intelligence in humanity. Humans, being of little if any intrinsic worth, were viewed by these cynics as of no intrinsic value, fit only to be used and manipulated.
A society which is permeated with cynicism is doomed to corruption and evil of all types since it recognises no moral code as having any validity.

I think you are confusing cynicism with judgment which involves coolly and dispassionately, without prejudice, of evaluating people and situations and reaching conclusions based on all the evidence available. That's what I have done all my life, as best as I am able.

Cynics are not so competent in evaluating as they have no firm guidelines by which to judge and being quick to dismiss those who do, have no moral 'footprint'. 

As for Jimmy Saville and all those now being brought to public judgment: in a country of almost seventy million human beings are you surprised that these things happen? There is also the fact that social standards and attitudes have moved on and some of the people now being judged got away with behaviour that superficially attracted no adverse comment. That does not excuse serious crimes, of course and as has always been the case people are all too willing to cover the backs of others. That happens in all levels of society.

As for Jimmy Saville being 'revered'....I along with everybody I knew and know always thought him to be seriously weird and creepy. Just as we knew Cliff Richard was gay. How anyone could fail to see that baffles me.
I guess people were too cynical and said things like 'Typical, the Establishment looking after their own, as usual'.

Electoral, representative democracy isn't perfect. What human-created system is? But it seems to be the best we have come up with as yet.


----------



## oronero

mrypg9 said:


> Cynicism is NEVER healthy. In fact it is profoundly unhealthy and dangerous in that it is not that far off nihilism.


Okay given the meaning of 'Cynicism' it was not the best choice of word that I could have used, perhaps 'Caution' would have been better. I still distrust Authority and people in power though.

Sadly so many scandals are now coming out of the woodwork in the UK, for too long some have been operating in the shadows and those that have raised concerns have been ignored. I agree it is difficult to run a society perfectly, especially with imperfect human beings.


----------



## alborino

oronero said:


> Sadly so many scandals are now coming out of the woodwork in the UK,


Why is that sad?

That is like sayIng it is bad news rape statistics climbed when it became easier to report rape. The UK is not perfect but for sure it is striving to improve. Many in the UK are willing to investigate the past and suffer the consequences. And if we all did that what a world it might be 

It is sad the scandals happened but burying them is not the best way forward surely?


----------



## mrypg9

oronero said:


> Okay given the meaning of 'Cynicism' it was not the best choice of word that I could have used, perhaps 'Caution' would have been better. I still distrust Authority and people in power though.
> 
> Sadly so many scandals are now coming out of the woodwork in the UK, for too long some have been operating in the shadows and those that have raised concerns have been ignored. I agree it is difficult to run a society perfectly, especially with imperfect human beings.


I agree with you. I didn't think you seemed like a cynic..not by this definition:


*distrusting or disparaging the motives of others; 

showing contempt for accepted standards of honesty or morality by one's actions, especially by actions that exploit the scruples of others. 

bitterly or sneeringly distrustful, contemptuous, or pessimistic*

I would describe myself as being innately, perhaps excessively prudent and risk averse, probably too much so. So whilst I don't distrust people in authority I am always looking closely. I always cling to what Oliver Cromwell is supposed to have said to the Scottish bishops 'I beseech ye, brethren, consider: ye may be wrong'.
I think those are marvellous words.

And yes, it's shameful that so many defenceless people have been preyed on by the rich and powerful, especially when their pleas for help have been ignored. Not just the victims of Savile and the Westminster paedophile ring but the children in Oxford, Rotherham, Gloucester and other towns, victims of evil men and silly, well-meaning dupes afraid of being labelled 'racist'.


----------



## oronero

alborino said:


> Why is that sad?
> 
> That is like sayIng it is bad news rape statistics climbed when it became easier to report rape. The UK is not perfect but for sure it is striving to improve. Many in the UK are willing to investigate the past and suffer the consequences. And if we all did that what a world it might be
> 
> It is sad the scandals happened but burying them is not the best way forward surely?


Sad in the sense that these things happened in the first place and by the shameful manner in which some of the scandals seem to have been dispelled and ignored in the past. I am glad that scandals are exposed and even more content when an appropriate form of justice takes place.

At the moment I have a sense of respect for the Portuguese legal system when they pull up those suspected of money laundering, tax evasion and fraud, especially when the person that is being held in Custody is a previous Prime Minister (Jose Socrates). BBC News - Portugal ex-PM Jose Socrates to be held amid corruption probe

I do not know if what he is accused of is true but it does give one hope that anyone and everyone will be held accountable for their wrongdoing, I am also aware that the Portuguese legal system is far from perfect.


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## Lynn R

As a complete contrast to the great difficulty those seeking to move to Spain and find work are likely to experience, here's an illustration of just how easy it is for young Spaniards to walk into a job in the UK, even without speaking English (although the jobs aren't well paid and they find life expensive):-


Alba Jimena Luque: «Si te mueves y le pones ganas, en Londres hay trabajo sin saber inglés» . SUR.es


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## Isobella

A lot of Spanish are working on the South Coast. Chichester, Bournemouth etc. even in shops such as Next and Topshop.


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## jojo

Isobella said:


> A lot of Spanish are working on the South Coast. Chichester, Bournemouth etc. even in shops such as Next and Topshop.


Yes, there are alot of Spanish in Worthing and the NHS here has just had a recruitment incentive in Spain and there are lots of Spanish clinicians working within the NHS now

Jo xxx


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