# Is Nothing Sacred Anymore?



## Hound Dog

From _PROCESO.COM.MX_, 23/09/2014:

"*CONSUMPTION OF COCA COLA IS THE CAUSE OF AN EPIDEMIC OF DIABETES AND OBESITY IN CHIAPAS"*

TUXTLA GUTIERREZ

Activists and investigators advised today that the state (of Chiapas) is experiencing a "state of emergency" as a result of and increase in the levels of obesity and diabetes due to the the high consumption of sugared soft drinks.

At a press conference, activists urged state and federal authorities to invest more economic resources to combat these (widespread) infirmities by taking action to eradicate the consumption of sugared soft drinks.

In a presentation of a the video _SWEET AGONY _that exposed the grave threat to public health represented by the consumption of soft drinks, the advocates posited that the consumption of soft drinks was triggering cases of obesity and diabetes.

Mexico is, they advised, the largest consumer of Coca Cola in the world and Chiapas is the state where Coca Cola is most consumed (per capita) among all Mexican states, (and that consumption is) particularly (high) in indigenous municipalities in the Chiapas Highlands, especially San Juan Chamula. 

Marcos Arana Cadeño, Director of the Center for Ecological and Health Training and Defense of Health Rights for Campesinos, Jaime Page Pliego, UNAM Investigator, Alejandro Calvillo, Director of Consumer Rights and Amarantha Rodríguez of Cacto Productions, urged Governor Velasco to exercise his power to diniminish the impact of this epidemic. 

Calvillo advised that "Weighing the situation of the poor who live in Chiapas (with the state's (disastrous) showing regarding obesity and malnutrición among other states in the union), ...(this) is a perfect situation for a health catastrophe." He further stated that,"It is abundantly clear that we need to increase the consumption of wáter and raise the conciousness (in the community) of the disastrous consequences of the consumption of soft drinks and especially Coca Cola for their high sugar content. Probably, Coca Cola is the major addiction of the indigenous communities of Chiapas."

The article in _PROCESO_ goes on at some length citing statistics supporting their contentions and to advise that this epifdemic is especially a problem in the state´s coastal zone and central highlands and if readers are interested in further information on this subject, the article can be found at _PROCESO´s _web site.

Although I think it is unfair to single out Coca Cola when there are many purveyors of soft drinks everywhere in Mexico and around much of the world, this excessive consumption of high sugar soft drinks is a serious matter and I am not making light of it since I live in Chiapas and know malnutrición and consumption of sugared soft drinks to be major problems there but, nevertheless, I am reminded of a scene from Stanley Kubrick´s 1964 movie, _Dr. Strangelove _when Peter Sellers as Captain Mandrake, in need of change to use the pay phone to call the president and to warn the president of the impending danger of atomic warfare, demanded of Col. "Bat" Guano, played by Keenan Wynn, that he shoot the lock on the Coca Cola machine in the room in order to retrieve change to use the pay phone (remember those?) and Col. Guano retorted, "But, that´s private property!" When Captain Mandrake continued to insist that Col. Guano shoot the machine so they could retrieve change to call the president and that he do it immediately, Col. Guano stated, "Well, OK, I´m gonna shoot the machine and get you your change, but you know what´s gonna happen to you don´t you? You´re gonna have to answer to the Coca Cola Company."


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## diablita

The Mexican politicos are just looking for scapegoats so they don't have to face up to the fact that very few paisanos are paying any attention to nutritional guidelines and other so-called laws due to the culture of ignoring what the government says to do or not to do. For example, the government's ban on selling junk food in schools is not being enforced much and if it is being enforced, all the kids need to do is to go outside in front of the school and they can find all sorts of junk food to feed their habit. At least that's the way it is where I live. Personally, I'm very fond of "roles de canela" and chocalate and chips and beer and my waist size has grown from 32 when I moved here to 36 now and I don't mind being in the company of other hefty folks. Let the criticizing begin!!


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## Isla Verde

This is nothing new. I remember my first time in Mexico (the summer of 1966) hearing that Mexico was the biggest consumer of soft drinks in the world, not sure if this was per capita or the total amount.


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## joaquinx

> Although I think it is unfair to single out Coca Cola when there are many purveyors of soft drinks everywhere in Mexico and around much of the world


If you walk into any miscellania, you will find Coke coolers and probably no others. At the checkout aisles in supermarkets, again, you will find more Coke coolers. If Pepsi is second, I have a difficult time finding them. Others? Not there. Hamburgers and French Fries are not the big culprit, but sugar is.


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## AlanMexicali

I like to drink Diet Coke when travelling and if we stop in a small town I usually cannot find any diet soft drinks sold in their tiendas except on the highway at a Pemex where there is a convenience store. 

I sometimes stop into one of those tiny Bodega Aurreras for something in the city and they do not sell any "light" products except soft drinks in the colonias populares. Not even light milk. I guess if it doesn´t sell they don´t stock it.

All the clinics and hospitals I have been in here have a chart made by the nursing students with an empty can, plastic bottle, box, etc. of sugared drinks glued to it with a small baggies full of the spoonfulls of sugar taped beside them with the same amount in each and the amount of spoonfulls and grams printed beside them. Amassing how much sugar is in a can of Coke and a 600 gr. bottle, a small box of Jugomex fruit juice, one of those yogurt drinks or the chocolate milk? mixes.


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## Isla Verde

AlanMexicali said:


> I sometimes stop into one of those tiny Bodega Aurreras for something in the city and they do not sell any "light" products except soft drinks in the colonias populares. Not even light milk. I guess if it doesn´t sell they don´t stock it.


I live in a middle-class neighbor in Mexico City and can find some "light" products in my local Superama, in particular, milk, yogurt and soft drinks. The convenience stores always have "light" soft drinks for sale, though not in as many flavors as the sugar-laden varieties.


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## joaquinx

The sad/interesting thing about "lite" yogurt is when they take the fat out, it tastes terrible so they add sugar. The fat does you less harm than the sugar.


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## AlanMexicali

Isla Verde said:


> I live in a middle-class neighbor in Mexico City and can find some "light" products in my local Superama, in particular, milk, yogurt and soft drinks. The convenience stores always have "light" soft drinks for sale, though not in as many flavors as the sugar-laden varieties.


I asked some of my wife´s neices [15] why they drink the sugared drinks instead of light and they all said something like this: I want to get my money´s worth [this might be a big reason here] and don´t want to get cáncer from sugar substiitutes and I like the flavor better. Only 2 are overweight. 

At family fiestas the norm is regular Coke, Fresca and apple soda, no light, plus warm atole or Abuelas hot chocolate, extra stong and gagging sweet IMO, in winter.


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## Isla Verde

joaquinx said:


> The sad/interesting thing about "lite" yogurt is when they take the fat out, it tastes terrible so they add sugar. The fat does you less harm than the sugar.


I always buy regular plain yogurt without added sugar. I like the tangy flavor


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## Longford

I didn't know the indigenous, the poorest of the poor in the state, have so much disposable income that they're spending it on soft drinks in quantities which would cause the problems talked about. As I read and view the matter, the "report" isn't worth the bandwith used to talk about it. If there's a health crisis in Chiapas Coca Cola isn't at the center of it. It must be a slow news day in Chiapas.


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## Justina

*Coca cola*



Longford said:


> I didn't know the indigenous, the poorest of the poor in the state, have so much disposable income that they're spending it on soft drinks in quantities which would cause the problems talked about. As I read and view the matter, the "report" isn't worth the bandwith used to talk about it. If there's a health crisis in Chiapas Coca Cola isn't at the center of it. It must be a slow news day in Chiapas.


I wouldn't give a toss about most of the reports, but it is true that lots of people would rather drink coca cola or fanta than water which probably costs about the same. In many places the water is still dodgy, so one has to boil the water which means using gas or buying bottles of many sizes.
I also remember albañiles working for us from time to time always arrived with a large bottle of coca cola. They said it gave them energy.


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## Hound Dog

_


Longford said:



I didn't know the indigenous, the poorest of the poor in the state, have so much disposable income that they're spending it on soft drinks in quantities which would cause the problems talked about. As I read and view the matter, the "report" isn't worth the bandwith used to talk about it. If there's a health crisis in Chiapas Coca Cola isn't at the center of it. It must be a slow news day in Chiapas. 

Click to expand...

_It is always a "slow" news day in Chiapas, a state where crime and violence are rampant and poverty overwhelming and widespread because, unless one lives there and has access to local gossip and media, primarily local radio stations broadcasing in Spanish and local indigenous languages, the news, often of a horrific nature, generally stays within the confines of the local communities. Most Mexican and international media outside of Chiapas and most local media in Chiapas itself which is largely devoted to local boosterism, ignore local news of an unpleasant nature emanating from the confines of poor communities largely out of disrespect for the affairs or the poor not typically considered newsworthy among the largely middle and upper middle class publishers and readers of those media. 

It is not uncommon for outsiders to misunderstand places like Chiapas and the use of what disposable income there is among the indigenous poor within those community with whom we have had the privilege to intermingle over the past eight years and where we have many friends and acquaintances. While Coca Cola and other sugary soft drinks are quite popular among the population of Chiapas as a whole, among the indigenous community, these sugary soft drinks, and especially Coca Cola, are extremely popular and consumed in copious amounts constantly. The concern expressed by those quoted or paraphrased in the article which launched this thread and the epidemics of malnutrición, obesity and Type 2 Diabetes in the state and especially among the poor of which there are many in this poorest state in the nation, are well- founded and of serious concern among authorities and health providers in the state although their concern is largely academic. 

We not only intermingle and are acquainted with many indigenous people, poor and relatively well-to-do alike, in the San Cristóbal área but in the countless isolated rural áreas of the highlands surrounding that city where dire poverty is a serious problem. I did not write frivolously concerning this problem in the southern regions of Mexico even though some moderator arbitrarily assigned the posting from me that initiated this thread to the lightly regarded "Chatarererria"for reasons only beknownst to that moderator. Perhaps my seeemingly light-hearted writing style contributed to that re-assignment of my opening posting.

The interrelated problems of obesity, diabetes and malnutrición are serious and ongoing in poor regions throughout the world including the United States and many parts of Europe, Latin America and Africa as well. In all of these regions, there is little disposable income but that that is available is often assigned to the purchase of food types contributing to poor health ramifications. That´s just the way it is among us humans.

I am reminded of a conversation one of us had with a citizen of the large and widespread San Juan Chamula indigenous community in the hills adjacent to San Cristóbal and popular among tourists to the región. His observation was that outsiders in general consider inhabitants of the greater Chamula indigenous municipality to be poor and bereft of disposable income but, he stated, we have our sources of income, which is really none of their business. and we spend that income as suits us. Apparently, Coca Cola and pox (a powerful local intoxicant) are two consumer ítems favored locally. The local indigenous and the local Chiapas "authorities" outside of the indigenous communies generally lack respect for each other so I wouldn´t expect to see a stampede for non-potable to suspect wáter supplies over continued consumption of soft drinks, pox and beer in the immediate future no matter how many self-serving news conferences take place in Tuxtla Gutiérrez.


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## Longford

Hound Dog said:


> It is always a "slow" news day in Chiapas, a state where crime and violence are rampant and poverty overwhelming and widespread because, unless one lives there and has access to local gossip and media, primarily local radio stations broadcasing in Spanish and local indigenous languages, the news, often of a horrific nature, generally stays within the confines of the local communities. .


Not much different than most of the rest of Mexico, it seems to me.


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## citlali

Longford, you obviously have never stayed with indigenous in the highlands, I do not care if they are the poorest of the poor, they drink nothing but soft drinks and coke is king. 
Coca Cola is everywhere even in the most remote villages and it is used in large quantities in the Traditional Churches, especially in Chamula where it is used to "burb the evil" along with lots of Posh to get totally drunk. 
The quantities of soft drinks drunk in Chiapas is scary. I have seen mothers giving it in a milk bottle to their todlers who are still being breastfed.
Many of the indigenous who come to town turn to fast food and their nutrition is terrible once they leave the village. It is a major problem from what I have seen in most villages.

Last wedding we attended was Evangelist and coke was on every table even at the signing ceremony and th bride and groom were toasted with coke.


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## Meritorious-MasoMenos

Citlali,

While your picture is disturbing and hits the mark: "Last wedding we attended was Evangelist and coke was on every table even at the signing ceremony and th bride and groom were toasted with coke," I think a lot of Mexicans would say that this scene is much, much better than a table top laden with bottles of rum, tequila and beer.


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## lagoloo

Not gonna happen, but wouldn't it have been better yet to serve fruit punch, made with real fruit?
I'm beginning to suspect that Coca Cola "owns" Mexico, to a large extent.


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## joaquinx

lagoloo said:


> Not gonna happen, but wouldn't it have been better yet to serve fruit punch, made with real fruit?
> I'm beginning to suspect that Coca Cola "owns" Mexico, to a large extent.


Fruit punches or ades are sugar and water. Very similar to Coca Cola and other soft drinks without the fizz.


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## Longford

citlali said:


> Longford, you obviously have never stayed with indigenous in the highlands, I do not care if they are the poorest of the poor, they drink nothing but soft drinks and coke is king.
> Coca Cola is everywhere even in the most remote villages and it is used in large quantities in the Traditional Churches, especially in Chamula where it is used to "burb the evil" along with lots of Posh to get totally drunk.
> The quantities of soft drinks drunk in Chiapas is scary. I have seen mothers giving it in a milk bottle to their todlers who are still being breastfed.
> Many of the indigenous who come to town turn to fast food and their nutrition is terrible once they leave the village. It is a major problem from what I have seen in most villages.
> 
> Last wedding we attended was Evangelist and coke was on every table even at the signing ceremony and th bride and groom were toasted with coke.


To which remarks are you making reference? The tag-team of the two of you gets confusing sometimes. I'll suggest you visit other parts of Mexico, for, I get the impression, the two of you think there's just one state - Chiapas. Actually, the conditions/lifestyles you suggest are not so exclusive - they are actually found in many, many parts of Mexico. And rather than have outsiders dictate or suggest to native-born Mexicans, even the "indigenous" how they should live their lives ... I prefer to let those native-born Mexicans including the "indigenous" figure that out for themselves without "we know better" attitudes to push forward. :yo:


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## AlanMexicali

Meritorious-MasoMenos said:


> Citlali,
> 
> While your picture is disturbing and hits the mark: "Last wedding we attended was Evangelist and coke was on every table even at the signing ceremony and th bride and groom were toasted with coke," I think a lot of Mexicans would say that this scene is much, much better than a table top laden with bottles of rum, tequila and beer.


No. Then nobody would get up after the big meal and start dancing until early morning.


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## RVGRINGO

Beer and wine were invented because water was unsafe to drink. The evangelicals are doomed.


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## Longford

RVGRINGO said:


> Beer and wine were invented because water was unsafe to drink. The evangelicals are doomed.


The consumption of large amounts of carbonated beverages in Mexico is, IMO, connected to the real and imagined problems with drinking water now and in years past. Coca Cola, Pepsi Cola, etc. ... they're expensive for poor people to buy. So are Sabritas and other bagged chips, etc. Yes, a disproportionate amount of the little money the majority of Mexicans, who live below the already low poverty line, have to feed themselves. You see this in just about any of the impoverished communities ... throughout the nation. That's been my own experience.


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## citlali

If it had been a Traditional (Maya) Catholic wedding they would have had coca cola and lots and lots of posh so many of the guests would not have been able to walk out and would have just been happily sleeping on the ground..
The Sabritas are another huge problems... We were in a poor village and walk into a store to get something to eat, the choice was candies,sweet bread, soft drinks and sabritas...all of that for people without money which shows you that they may have some money available and the little they have goes into that type of food....


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## Meritorious-MasoMenos

RVGRINGO said:


> Beer and wine were invented because water was unsafe to drink. The evangelicals are doomed.


I too would rather hoist beer or wine rather than coke, or coca cola, but I was channeling my years of living in Guatemala in viewing . As in Russia, you can't put the top back on a bottle of the rotgut sugar liquor, cheaper than coke, I believe. Of course, many of the indigenous guys wore machetes, and once liquored up, started swinging them at the tiniest provocation. The weekend body count is always appalling.

Plus, though I don't drink the swill myself nowadays, Coke is also a comfort food. Decades ago, I went on a trek into a jungle region the Guat gov't opened up to settlement, in a controversial move. The only highway was a river. There were no roads, no vehicles, no electricity, no refrigeration, but plenty of pioneers. A miss-mash of indigenous groups, ladinos, hustlers, soldiers, opening up the land. After a hard day of work in that humid, dank land, everyone, from the shortest indigenous to the tallest settler, and me, popped open a lukewarm glass bottle of Coca-cola, tasted like gold.


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## Hound Dog

Meritorious-MasoMenos said:


> Citlali,
> _
> While your picture is disturbing and hits the mark: "Last wedding we attended was Evangelist and coke was on every table even at the signing ceremony and the bride and groom were toasted with coke," I think a lot of Mexicans would say that this scene is much, much better than a table top laden with bottles of rum, tequila and beer._




The rum and pox (tequila is not a factor there) are infused into the Coca Cola during and after after church services and other myriad celebrations. The poor like to get looped on sweet drinks laced with booze and intoxicating substances in Chiapas and Oaxaca and Tabasco and the poor also indulge in intoxicating spirits and drugs from Mississippi to the the Meditteranian Coast of Europe to the destitute of Uganda and Uruguay and you name it. The powers that be like this dependence on intoxicating substances which renders their opponents among the oppressed unworthy of serious contention. Of couse, the same is true in the rough and deadly streets of Chicago so no need to go looking elsewhere for trouble which brews in one´s own backyard.


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## Hound Dog

Weddings in Dawg´s home state of Alabama in the U.S. are drunken affairs that seem to be enormous fun and always be over within short order. The few weddings Dawg has atended among the abstaining protestant Christians of the indigenous in Chiapas never end even when they do. I have seen funerals more upbeat.


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## Hound Dog

I do not know whom to attribute this movement back into the main body of the fórum discussion thread from the less seriously regarded "Chatarretria" sub-context thread meant, it seems to me, to convey intermittent and frivolous gossip but I thank the person who made that decisión and request that those reading and posting here consider the merit of the discussion of the consumption of junk foods as, perhaps, tools utilized to affirm peconceived notions we may have of each other whether properly or improperly based on fact. 

Personally, I have found that predispositions toward self-destructive behavior among the poor to to be the bed in which they have chosen to repose. Not my problem.


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## Isla Verde

Hound Dog said:


> I do not know whom to attribute this movement back into the main body of the fórum discussion thread from the less seriously regarded "Chatarretria" sub-context thread meant, it seems to me, to convey intermittent and frivolous gossip but I thank the person who made that decisión ...


You're welcome, HD.


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## TundraGreen

Hound Dog said:


> I do not know whom to attribute this movement back into the main body of the fórum discussion thread from the less seriously regarded "Chatarretria" sub-context thread meant, it seems to me, to convey intermittent and frivolous gossip but I thank the person who made that decisión and request that those reading and posting here consider the merit of the discussion of the consumption of junk foods as, perhaps, tools utilized to affirm peconceived notions we may have of each other whether properly or improperly based on fact.
> 
> Personally, I have found that predispositions toward self-destructive behavior among the poor to to be the bed in which they have chosen to repose. Not my problem.


Actually the intent of La Chatarrería was solely for conversations that were not directly related to Mexico. There was no intention of a comment on whether the subject was serious or not. This thread contains discussion about Mexico as well as other things. It belongs in the main forum.


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## Hound Dog

_


Meritorious-MasoMenos said:



Citlali,

While your picture is disturbing and hits the mark: "Last wedding we attended was Evangelist and coke was on every table even at the signing ceremony and th bride and groom were toasted with coke," I think a lot of Mexicans would say that this scene is much, much better than a table top laden with bottles of rum, tequila and beer.

Click to expand...

_Well, I must say, MM, that Dawg grew up in Alabama, traveled the world as a young man, lived for some time in places as disparate as France, India and Uganda and can tell you from this background that a table generously offering copious amounts of (fine) rum, exquisite tequila and well-brewed beers walks all over a table offering insipid soft drinks any day. As for health ramifications, we are all headed in the same direction six feet under the turf and will all get there soon enough. 

As far as Mexicans are concerned, since you presume to speak for them as a whole, the Mexicans I have had the privilege to have met and interrelated with over the years would never have preferred a table laden with soft drinks over a table laden with fine spirits whether tequila or rum or what have you. Dawg did not just arrive in Mexico on the banana boat.


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## AlanMexicali

The soft drinks are for mix, for children, and those who do not drink liquor.


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## Hound Dog

_


AlanMexicali said:



The soft drinks are for mix, for children, and those who do not drink liquor.

Click to expand...

_Agrreed, Alan but ls for us lushes mixing fine Havana Club Rum with Coca Cola, and freshly squeezed lime. Takes the heat off the journey from La Havana on the Atlantic to La Trinidad on the Caribbean.


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## AlanMexicali

Hound Dog said:


> Agrreed, Alan but ls for us lushes mixing fine Havana Club Rum with Coca Cola, and freshly squeezed lime. Takes the heat off the journey from La Havana on the Atlantic to La Trinidad on the Caribbean.


I spent 2 months in Trinidad and the rum bars are wooden shacks on the sidewalks with fold up wooden covers smaller than a boxcar but the same shape and are open until 3AM and if it raining the wooden covers keep you dry. You sit on stools on the sidewalk. They also serve bootleg rum, uncut, that is almost pure alcohol.  I forget what they mixed it with. Probably made it a rum punch.


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## Justina

*Wooden shacks*



AlanMexicali said:


> I spent 2 months in Trinidad and the rum bars are wooden shacks on the sidewalks with fold up wooden covers smaller than a boxcar but the same shape and are open until 3AM and if it raining the wooden covers keep you dry. You sit on stools on the sidewalk. They also serve bootleg rum, uncut, that is almost pure alcohol.  I forget what they mixed it with.


What they mixed it with seems to have been the least of your problems, but you sound a happy man, for all that.


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## RVGRINGO

That stuff will make anyone forget.


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## AlanMexicali

RVGRINGO said:


> That stuff will make anyone forget.


 Also you wake up with a swollen tongue in the morning.


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## Hound Dog

[_QUOTE=Meritorious-MasoMenos;5377794]I too would rather hoist beer or wine rather than coke, or coca cola, but I was channeling my years of living in Guatemala in viewing . As in Russia, you can't put the top back on a bottle of the rotgut sugar liquor, cheaper than coke, I believe. Of course, many of the indigenous guys wore machetes, and once liquored up, started swinging them at the tiniest provocation. The weekend body count is always appalling.

Plus, though I don't drink the swill myself nowadays, Coke is also a comfort food. Decades ago, I went on a trek into a jungle region the Guat gov't opened up to settlement, in a controversial move. The only highway was a river. There were no roads, no vehicles, no electricity, no refrigeration, but plenty of pioneers. A miss-mash of indigenous groups, ladinos, hustlers, soldiers, opening up the land. After a hard day of work in that humid, dank land, everyone, from the shortest indigenous to the tallest settler, and me, popped open a lukewarm glass bottle of Coca-cola, tasted like gold.[/QUOTE]_

I´m beginning to like you MM, and that says a lot as I like no one, even The Dawg. 

We made a friend in San Cristóbal who was a stunningly beautiful dark skinned African American who had been assigned the Lacandon Forest as a precurser place to change for the better as a fundamental achievement required to successfully having warranted the notion of having deserved that prized Berkeley giaduate degree.

One day, she and a friend were wandering about the Lacandon forest in Chiapas counting trees when they came upon a group of drunken indigenous men handling machetes who informed them in no uncertain terms that they had about ten minutes to exit the forest or be cut to threads by machete and the message was udeterminably clear. They were out of that forest so fast the only memory of them is their sweat.

Don´t mess with people you don´t understand.


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## diablita

Companies in Mexico Find Healthier Packaged Foods a Tough Sell - WSJ


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## Hound Dog

[_QUOTE=diablita;5401730]Companies in Mexico Find Healthier Packaged Foods a Tough Sell - WSJ[/QUOTE]_

Healthier food purveyors should folow tbe Mexican example and, rather than promote their foods as healthy, a certain promise that their food so marketed as tasteless, they should sell their foods as "2X1". That´s what sells in Mexico.


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## AlanMexicali

AlanMexicali said:


> I spent 2 months in Trinidad and the rum bars are wooden shacks on the sidewalks with fold up wooden covers smaller than a boxcar but the same shape and are open until 3AM and if it raining the wooden covers keep you dry. You sit on stools on the sidewalk. They also serve bootleg rum, uncut, that is almost pure alcohol.  I forget what they mixed it with. Probably made it a rum punch.


Houndog seems to be talking about Trinidad, a city in Cuba. I visited the island of Trinidad/Tobago.


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## Hound Dog

[_QUOTE=AlanMexicali;5446858]Houndog seems to be talking about Trinidad, a city in Cuba. I visited the island of Trinidad/Tobago.[/QUOTE]_

I was referring to the historic and beautiful colonial city of Trinidad in the Cuban state of Sancti Spíritus on the Caribbean Coast between Havana on the Atlantic Coast and Santaigo de Cuba on the Caribbean Coast , as I understand it, Cuba´s most ancient capital and also a colonial charm before Havana was founded. 

The drive between Havana and Santiago de Cuba is rather lengthy, some 1,200 kilometers we are led to believe, and we are not folks interested in Atlantic or Gulf or Caribbean beaches but in exploring the colonial and pre-Colombian attractions of the seemingly splendid and historically important island of Cuba. 

We don´t give a damn in our dottage about the transient politics of those places we may plan to visit as these human affairs are subject tio short-order change so who cares about the political situation in Cuba which largely came about as Meyer Lansky and the U.S. mob tried to turn the country into Las Vegas with beaches and easy whores and pimps in the 1950s. One has to be ignorant beyond belief to think this ancient island is today anything remotely like what is was in times past or will be in times to come,. Same for the United States or France or anyplace else. 

My inquiry on renting cars and journeying between Havana and far Eastern Cuba was only practical in nature and, perhaps, I was naive in expecting to be enlightened hereabouts.

This would not be my first adventure in Cuba had things worked out during the criminal Kennedy administration in the U.S. of the 1960s, back then, I, as a U.S. Marine Corps Reserve infrantryman and graduate of Parris Island and was advised to standby for an invasión of Cuba by the U.S. military out to destroy Castro and his ilk. I was supposed to land my youthful ass on Cuba´s beaches, destroy Castro and his lieutenants and turn the country back over to the Bautista criminals allied with Meyer Lansky´s U.S. mob so we U,S folks could turn Havana into Las Vegas with beaches and Cuban women into whores for U.S. perverts flying down from the U.S. for sex and gambling lining the pockets of the despicable U.S. mobsters ruling Cuba before Castro´s crowd stepped in.

I am just planning to visit Cuba as a Mexican tourist to see its reportedly magnificent countryside and beautiful urban architecture. [snip]


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## Hound Dog

Regarding my just made post about Cuba and the icortruption of that beautiful but susceptible island just 90 miles from the U.S. mainland I am reminded of ; "Poor Mexico, so far from God and so close to the United States.". When Castro failed to kiss their asses thay decided that his had to go, Nothing is as simple as it seems here on Earth.


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## Isla Verde

Hound Dog said:


> Regarding my just made post about Cuba and the icortruption of that beautiful but susceptible island just 90 miles from the U.S. mainland I am reminded of ; "Poor Mexico, so far from God and so close to the United States.". When Castro failed to kiss their asses thay decided that his had to go, Nothing is as simple as it seems here on Earth.


But he's still there, along with his brother. What will happen to Cuba when both of these old guys finally pass on?


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## GARYJ65

Hound Dog said:


> Regarding my just made post about Cuba and the icortruption of that beautiful but susceptible island just 90 miles from the U.S. mainland I am reminded of ; "Poor Mexico, so far from God and so close to the United States.". When Castro failed to kiss their asses thay decided that his had to go, Nothing is as simple as it seems here on Earth.


Castro is an imbecile, he cheated cubans and then stayed as a dictator
I prefer to remember "comes y te vas" When President Fox wanted him to make mutis right after lunch


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## Hound Dog

Too bad about Castro´s success in the U.S.´planned Western Macao Colony. 100 cheap flights a day from the U.S to fill the pockets of two-bit thugs, sleazy whores and crooked cops and sleazeball local bosses feeding bakshish back to crooked U.S. politicians beholden to Midwestern hypocrites.

I´m trying not to vomit on my keyboard.


----------



## Justina

*Cuba*



Hound Dog said:


> Too bad about Castro´s success in the U.S.´planned Western Macao Colony. 100 cheap flights a day from the U.S to fill the pockets of two-bit thugs, sleazy whores and crooked cops and sleazeball local bosses feeding bakshish back to crooked U.S. politicians beholden to Midwestern hypocrites.
> 
> I´m trying not to vomit on my keyboard.


I think the most idiotic thing that the US did with Cuba was their embargo on the country, which is still in force. It allowed Castro to entrench himself in the country and justify his position in politics. Of course the Europeans just played like poodles and allowed the US to dictate policy.


----------



## joaquinx

We never speak of Fulgencio Batista who was the most corrupt Cuban president (?) in their history. He makes the reign of Castro a paradise. We have country to country relations with Russia, China, and Vietnam, yet we still have the embargo on Cuba. No doubt a position strongly supported by the Cubans in Florida who are still wishing that their Batista was in charge.


----------



## Hound Dog

[_QUOTE=joaquinx;5452850]We never speak of Fulgencio Batista who was the most corrupt Cuban president (?) in their history. He makes the reign of Castro a paradise. We have country to country relations with Russia, China, and Vietnam, yet we still have the embargo on Cuba. No doubt a position strongly supported by the Cubans in Florida who are still wishing that their Batista was in charge.[/QUOTE]_

The expat Cuban vote is the margin in Florida, a swing state and no U.S. politician would even dream of crossing them. Disgraceful but the way it is everywhere - votes or no votes. We humans are what we are and, even if we recoil from that certainty, we still are what we are. Castro and Batista and Stalin and Hitler and Francois Dulavier were all us. Deny it at your peril.

The people among whom I was raised in 1950s Alabama never stood up and denounced the racists in charge in those days even though they despised them. Same in Germany under the Nazis and today in Mexico when we fail to discern or denounce the plague that is all around us .


----------



## Recon1

Hound Dog said:


> From _PROCESO.COM.MX_, 23/09/2014:
> 
> "*CONSUMPTION OF COCA COLA IS THE CAUSE OF AN EPIDEMIC OF DIABETES AND OBESITY IN CHIAPAS"*
> 
> TUXTLA GUTIERREZ
> 
> Activists and investigators advised today that the state (of Chiapas) is experiencing a "state of emergency" as a result of and increase in the levels of obesity and diabetes due to the the high consumption of sugared soft drinks.
> 
> At a press conference, activists urged state and federal authorities to invest more economic resources to combat these (widespread) infirmities by taking action to eradicate the consumption of sugared soft drinks.
> 
> In a presentation of a the video _SWEET AGONY _that exposed the grave threat to public health represented by the consumption of soft drinks, the advocates posited that the consumption of soft drinks was triggering cases of obesity and diabetes.
> 
> Mexico is, they advised, the largest consumer of Coca Cola in the world and Chiapas is the state where Coca Cola is most consumed (per capita) among all Mexican states, (and that consumption is) particularly (high) in indigenous municipalities in the Chiapas Highlands, especially San Juan Chamula.
> 
> Marcos Arana Cadeño, Director of the Center for Ecological and Health Training and Defense of Health Rights for Campesinos, Jaime Page Pliego, UNAM Investigator, Alejandro Calvillo, Director of Consumer Rights and Amarantha Rodríguez of Cacto Productions, urged Governor Velasco to exercise his power to diniminish the impact of this epidemic.
> 
> Calvillo advised that "Weighing the situation of the poor who live in Chiapas (with the state's (disastrous) showing regarding obesity and malnutrición among other states in the union), ...(this) is a perfect situation for a health catastrophe." He further stated that,"It is abundantly clear that we need to increase the consumption of wáter and raise the conciousness (in the community) of the disastrous consequences of the consumption of soft drinks and especially Coca Cola for their high sugar content. Probably, Coca Cola is the major addiction of the indigenous communities of Chiapas."
> 
> The article in _PROCESO_ goes on at some length citing statistics supporting their contentions and to advise that this epifdemic is especially a problem in the state´s coastal zone and central highlands and if readers are interested in further information on this subject, the article can be found at _PROCESO´s _web site.
> 
> Although I think it is unfair to single out Coca Cola when there are many purveyors of soft drinks everywhere in Mexico and around much of the world, this excessive consumption of high sugar soft drinks is a serious matter and I am not making light of it since I live in Chiapas and know malnutrición and consumption of sugared soft drinks to be major problems there but, nevertheless, I am reminded of a scene from Stanley Kubrick´s 1964 movie, _Dr. Strangelove _when Peter Sellers as Captain Mandrake, in need of change to use the pay phone to call the president and to warn the president of the impending danger of atomic warfare, demanded of Col. "Bat" Guano, played by Keenan Wynn, that he shoot the lock on the Coca Cola machine in the room in order to retrieve change to use the pay phone (remember those?) and Col. Guano retorted, "But, that´s private property!" When Captain Mandrake continued to insist that Col. Guano shoot the machine so they could retrieve change to call the president and that he do it immediately, Col. Guano stated, "Well, OK, I´m gonna shoot the machine and get you your change, but you know what´s gonna happen to you don´t you? You´re gonna have to answer to the Coca Cola Company."


coke lover here but fact is coke is bad for you but that don't stop me it is not as bad as all those alternatively sweeten products- great mix for drinks - you ever hear give me a rum and pepsi or scotch with a pepsi back


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## TundraGreen

Libertyn said:


> coke lover here but fact is coke is bad for you but that don't stop me it is not as bad as all those alternatively sweeten products- great mix for drinks - you ever hear give me a rum and pepsi or scotch with a pepsi back


In my opinion, Coke is no different that many other substances that people abuse because of psychological or physical addiction. It is okay in small quantities, but very bad for you on a regular basis. Making these substances illegal doesn't work, but in a perfect world, they would be heavily taxed and the money raised could be used for treatment programs to help people learn to live without them. 

As I said, just my opinion. Opinions are like appendices, everybody has one, and they are not worth much.


----------



## wonderphil

GARYJ65 said:


> Castro is an imbecile, he cheated cubans and then stayed as a dictator
> I prefer to remember "comes y te vas" When President Fox wanted him to make mutis right after lunch


Thank you Gary, you were factual and very generous to that MFING $$$%#@@^&*&^# Shat bird Communist Castro


----------



## joaquinx

TundraGreen said:


> In my opinion, Coke is no different that many other substances that people abuse because of psychological or physical addiction. It is okay in small quantities, but very bad for you on a regular basis. Making these substances illegal doesn't work, but in a perfect world, they would be heavily taxed and the money raised could be used for treatment programs to help people learn to live without them.
> 
> As I said, just my opinion. Opinions are like appendices, everybody has one, and they are not worth much.


Looking at soft drinks and even orange juice, they are reduced to nothing more than sugar and water. Making the water bubbly doesn't make it healthy.


----------



## joaquinx

GARYJ65 said:


> Castro is an imbecile, he cheated cubans and then stayed as a dictator


I hear a small voice saying ". . .the pot is calling the kettle black. . . ."


----------



## Isla Verde

joaquinx said:


> I hear a small voice saying ". . .the pot is calling the kettle black. . . ."


Who is the pot and who, the kettle?


----------



## joaquinx

Isla Verde said:


> Who is the pot and who, the kettle?


Castro and Cuba versus the history of PRI,


----------



## Isla Verde

joaquinx said:


> Castro and Cuba versus the history of PRI,


If you're saying that Gary (a private Mexican citizen) represents the PRI, I think your analogy falls a bit flat.


----------



## joaquinx

Isla Verde said:


> If you're saying that Gary (a private Mexican citizen) represents the PRI, I think your analogy falls a bit flat.


I certainly did not say that. Gary managed to criticize Castro as a demon, yet failed to recognize the failings of his own country. Just because Castro dissed Fox is no reason to point a dirty finger at Castro.


----------



## Isla Verde

joaquinx said:


> I certainly did not say that. Gary managed to criticize Castro as a demon, yet failed to recognize the failings of his own country. Just because Castro dissed Fox is no reason to point a dirty finger at Castro.


I have the feeling that Gary is quite aware of the failings of the PRI, but I'll let him speak for himself. When did Castro diss Fox, and where did this event appear in this thread? I'm a bit confused  .


----------



## joaquinx

GARYJ65 said:


> Castro is an imbecile, he cheated cubans and then stayed as a dictator
> I prefer to remember "comes y te vas" When President Fox wanted him to make mutis right after lunch


Here


----------



## Isla Verde

joaquinx said:


> Here


When I read that post of Gary's, I had no idea what it was about.


----------



## joaquinx

There was a meeting of various nation in Monterrey, I believe, and Fox was on the telephone with Castro. Fox said that it was fine with him to come to the meeting, however, Castro must leave before Bush arrives as Fox wanted to avoid the possibility of conflicts. Fox told Castro that this conversation was just between them and should not be repeated. Castro agreed, however, Castro taped the conversation and then replayed it over Radio Havana. Fox, to put it mildly, was miffed.


----------



## Isla Verde

joaquinx said:


> There was a meeting of various nation in Monterrey, I believe, and Fox was on the telephone with Castro. Fox said that it was fine with him to come to the meeting, however, Castro must leave before Bush arrives as Fox wanted to avoid the possibility of conflicts. Fox told Castro that this conversation was just between them and should not be repeated. Castro agreed, however, Castro taped the conversation and then replayed it over Radio Havana. Fox, to put it mildly, was miffed.





> I prefer to remember "comes y te vas" When President Fox wanted him to make mutis right after lunch


Thanks for the explanation, joaquin. What on earth does "make mutis" mean?


----------



## ojosazules11

GARYJ65 said:


> Castro is an imbecile, he cheated cubans and then stayed as a dictator
> I prefer to remember "comes y te vas" When President Fox wanted him to make mutis right after lunch





joaquinx said:


> Here


The reference is not about Fidel dissing Fox. It was actually that Fox had invited Fidel to a United Nations Summit meeting, expecting Fidel would turn down the invitation. When Fidel accepted the invitation, Fox apparently was worried about the US and President Bush's reaction, especially if Castro spoke out against the US or President Bush.

Fox called Fidel to try to mitigate the potential tension with the US. Fidel taped the conversation and later made it public. "Hacer mutis" which Gary refers to is basically Fox asking Fidel to "keep quiet" or "Eat, then leave" (come in the morning, give his speech free from antagonism towards the US, have lunch, then return to Cuba ). 

For those who read Spanish here is a transcript of part of the phone conversation:


_"Una situación parecida vivió México en 2002, cuando dos días antes de una Cumbre de Naciones Unidas en Monterrey, el presidente Vicente Fox recibió una carta de Fidel Castro en la cual aceptaba la invitación que todo el mundo esperaba que declinara. El presidente mexicano, preocupado por la posición de Estados Unidos frente a la presencia del líder de la Revolución cubana, llamó telefónicamente a Castro a tratar de disuadirlo. Fidel, quien creía que esa llamada se iba a producir, la grabó y durante casi 20 minutos le tomó el pelo a Fox haciéndolo hacer el oso varias veces. Y, como si fuera poco, a pesar de que se había comprometido a que la conversación fuera 'privada', la hizo pública y la vergonzosa conversación que tuvo lugar le dio la vuelta al mundo. 

Por considerar que este pintoresco episodio es de interés dada la coyuntura diplomática que está viviendo Colombia en la actualidad, SEMANA reproduce en forma sintética sus principales apartes.

Vicente Fox: Aló Fidel, ¿Cómo estás?

Fidel Castro: Dígame, señor presidente, ¿cómo está usted?

Fox: Primero, antes que nada, quisiera pedirte que esta conversación sea privada, entre tú y yo. ¿Estás de acuerdo?

Fidel: Sí, de acuerdo. (…) 

Fox: Pero, mira, Fidel, yo te hablo primero como amigo.

Fidel: Si me habla primero como amigo, espero que no me diga que no vaya.

Fox: (Se ríe). Bueno, vamos a ver, déjame platicarte, a ver tú que opinas.

Fidel: Yo lo escucho pero, se lo advierto de antemano, le puedo ayudar en cualquier cosa menos en eso. (…) 

Fox: La verdad es que no es muy de amigos avisar así a última hora y con esta sorpresa sí me pones en una buena cantidad de problemas, por ejemplo, problemas con tu seguridad. 

Fidel: Bueno, yo no tengo ninguna preocupación. No necesito 800 hombres como los que lleva el señor Bush. 

Fox: Bueno, pero tú puedes confiar en un amigo y me podías haber hecho saber un poco antes que pretendías venir, eso yo creo que hubiera resultado mucho mejor para ambos. 

Fidel: Usted comprenderá que si ahora me dicen que no vaya, eso daría lugar a un escándalo mundial.

Fox: ¿Pero qué necesidad tienes de armar escándalo mundial, si te estoy hablando como amigo?

Fidel: Oígame, es que usted es el presidente del país anfitrión y, si me lo prohíbe, no me quedaría más remedio que publicar mañana el discurso que planeaba pronunciar allá.

Fox: Eso no, tú tienes todo el derecho. A ver, si de todas maneras pretendes venir, déjame hacerte una propuesta.

Fidel: Dígame, estoy dispuesto a escuchar una transacción. 

Fox: Por qué no vienes el jueves por la mañana ya que tienes tu discurso a la una de la tarde.

Fidel: No se preocupe, yo lo ayudo en todo. No lo molesto en nada, no tiene que invitarme a las comidas. 

Fox: No es para tanto. Inclusive te invito al almuerzo de ese día, inclusive te puedo sentar a mi lado. Pero una vez terminado el evento te regresas.

Fidel: ¿A la isla de Cuba? ¿O al Hotel? 

Fox: A la isla de Cuba. (...) 

Fidel: Correcto.

Fox: Fidel, ¿te puedo pedir otro favor? 

Fidel: Dígame, ¿en qué más puedo servirlo? 

Fox: Pues básicamente no agredir a Estados Unidos o al presidente Bush. (…) 

Fidel: Óigame, señor presidente. Llevo 43 años en política y sé decir la verdad con la decencia y la elegancia necesaria. No albergue el menor temor de que le voy a soltar una bomba allí. (…) 

Fox: Eso te lo agradezco. Entonces quedamos en que tú vienes el jueves y ahí me dejarás libre. Es la petición que te hago para que no me compliques el viernes. 

Fidel: Yo comprendo todo, cosas de las cuales no vamos a hablar ahora. Estoy dispuesto a cooperar con usted. Me limitaré a cumplir sus órdenes, yo como y me regreso. 

Después de esta conversación, Fidel Castro fue, echó su discurso, almorzó y se regresó, como había acordado. Una vez en la isla de Cuba, sacó la grabación dejando al presidente de México en ridículo."
_


----------



## Meritorious-MasoMenos

ojosazules11 said:


> The reference is not about Fidel dissing Fox. It was actually that Fox had invited Fidel to a United Nations Summit meeting, expecting Fidel would turn down the invitation. When Fidel accepted the invitation, Fox apparently was worried about the US and President Bush's reaction, especially if Castro spoke out against the US or President Bush.
> 
> Fox called Fidel to try to mitigate the potential tension with the US. Fidel taped the conversation and later made it public. "Hacer mutis" which Gary refers to is basically Fox asking Fidel to "keep quiet" or "Eat, then leave" (come in the morning, give his speech free from antagonism towards the US, have lunch, then return to Cuba ).
> 
> For those who read Spanish here is a transcript of part of the phone conversation:
> 
> 
> _"Una situación parecida vivió México en 2002, cuando dos días antes de una Cumbre de Naciones Unidas en Monterrey, el presidente Vicente Fox recibió una carta de Fidel Castro en la cual aceptaba la invitación que todo el mundo esperaba que declinara. El presidente mexicano, preocupado por la posición de Estados Unidos frente a la presencia del líder de la Revolución cubana, llamó telefónicamente a Castro a tratar de disuadirlo. Fidel, quien creía que esa llamada se iba a producir, la grabó y durante casi 20 minutos le tomó el pelo a Fox haciéndolo hacer el oso varias veces. Y, como si fuera poco, a pesar de que se había comprometido a que la conversación fuera 'privada', la hizo pública y la vergonzosa conversación que tuvo lugar le dio la vuelta al mundo.
> 
> Por considerar que este pintoresco episodio es de interés dada la coyuntura diplomática que está viviendo Colombia en la actualidad, SEMANA reproduce en forma sintética sus principales apartes.
> 
> Vicente Fox: Aló Fidel, ¿Cómo estás?
> 
> Fidel Castro: Dígame, señor presidente, ¿cómo está usted?
> 
> Fox: Primero, antes que nada, quisiera pedirte que esta conversación sea privada, entre tú y yo. ¿Estás de acuerdo?
> 
> Fidel: Sí, de acuerdo. (…)
> 
> Fox: Pero, mira, Fidel, yo te hablo primero como amigo.
> 
> Fidel: Si me habla primero como amigo, espero que no me diga que no vaya.
> 
> Fox: (Se ríe). Bueno, vamos a ver, déjame platicarte, a ver tú que opinas.
> 
> Fidel: Yo lo escucho pero, se lo advierto de antemano, le puedo ayudar en cualquier cosa menos en eso. (…)
> 
> Fox: La verdad es que no es muy de amigos avisar así a última hora y con esta sorpresa sí me pones en una buena cantidad de problemas, por ejemplo, problemas con tu seguridad.
> 
> Fidel: Bueno, yo no tengo ninguna preocupación. No necesito 800 hombres como los que lleva el señor Bush.
> 
> Fox: Bueno, pero tú puedes confiar en un amigo y me podías haber hecho saber un poco antes que pretendías venir, eso yo creo que hubiera resultado mucho mejor para ambos.
> 
> Fidel: Usted comprenderá que si ahora me dicen que no vaya, eso daría lugar a un escándalo mundial.
> 
> Fox: ¿Pero qué necesidad tienes de armar escándalo mundial, si te estoy hablando como amigo?
> 
> Fidel: Oígame, es que usted es el presidente del país anfitrión y, si me lo prohíbe, no me quedaría más remedio que publicar mañana el discurso que planeaba pronunciar allá.
> 
> Fox: Eso no, tú tienes todo el derecho. A ver, si de todas maneras pretendes venir, déjame hacerte una propuesta.
> 
> Fidel: Dígame, estoy dispuesto a escuchar una transacción.
> 
> Fox: Por qué no vienes el jueves por la mañana ya que tienes tu discurso a la una de la tarde.
> 
> Fidel: No se preocupe, yo lo ayudo en todo. No lo molesto en nada, no tiene que invitarme a las comidas.
> 
> Fox: No es para tanto. Inclusive te invito al almuerzo de ese día, inclusive te puedo sentar a mi lado. Pero una vez terminado el evento te regresas.
> 
> Fidel: ¿A la isla de Cuba? ¿O al Hotel?
> 
> Fox: A la isla de Cuba. (...)
> 
> Fidel: Correcto.
> 
> Fox: Fidel, ¿te puedo pedir otro favor?
> 
> Fidel: Dígame, ¿en qué más puedo servirlo?
> 
> Fox: Pues básicamente no agredir a Estados Unidos o al presidente Bush. (…)
> 
> Fidel: Óigame, señor presidente. Llevo 43 años en política y sé decir la verdad con la decencia y la elegancia necesaria. No albergue el menor temor de que le voy a soltar una bomba allí. (…)
> 
> Fox: Eso te lo agradezco. Entonces quedamos en que tú vienes el jueves y ahí me dejarás libre. Es la petición que te hago para que no me compliques el viernes.
> 
> Fidel: Yo comprendo todo, cosas de las cuales no vamos a hablar ahora. Estoy dispuesto a cooperar con usted. Me limitaré a cumplir sus órdenes, yo como y me regreso.
> 
> Después de esta conversación, Fidel Castro fue, echó su discurso, almorzó y se regresó, como había acordado. Una vez en la isla de Cuba, sacó la grabación dejando al presidente de México en ridículo."
> _


Looks like Castro double crossed Fox twice. Mexico was the only country to reject the U.S. call to break relations with Cuba back in the 60s, right?


----------



## Justina

Yes, I remember it almost word for word and showed the stupidity of Fox. I also thought that Castro treated Fox with a certain elegance, listening to the nonsense of 'how we are friends', si como no, and always using the usted and not the tu. Castro must have been laughing his head off.


----------



## Meritorious-MasoMenos

Justina said:


> Yes, I remember it almost word for word and showed the stupidity of Fox. I also thought that Castro treated Fox with a certain elegance, listening to the nonsense of 'how we are friends', si como no, and always using the usted and not the tu. Castro must have been laughing his head off.


Of course Fox, in that year of 2002, if we all remember what that year was, couldn't be seen as forcing Bush into a meeting with Castro. I'm sure Castro would have loved the chance to embarrass Bush, but again, shouldn't he have paid some regard to Mexico standing alone for decades as maintaining diplomatic relations with Havana?


----------



## Isla Verde

Meritorious-MasoMenos said:


> Of course Fox, in that year of 2002, if we all remember what that year was, couldn't be seen as forcing Bush into a meeting with Castro. I'm sure Castro would have loved the chance to embarrass Bush, but again, shouldn't he have paid some regard to Mexico standing alone for decades as maintaining diplomatic relations with Havana?


I agree. But then Fidel was always so full of himself, wasn't he?


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## Justina

Rubbish Isla, the last person with pretensions is or was Castro. I believe he started out with good intentions and things happened. Think of Obama and his healthcare deal for Americans and what happened to that? That was one of the most important things that any president could have done for the people, but no, it got whittled down by a Republican majority in Congress and ya ni modo.


----------



## Meritorious-MasoMenos

Justina said:


> Rubbish Isla, the last person with pretensions is or was Castro. I believe he started out with good intentions and things happened. Think of Obama and his healthcare deal for Americans and what happened to that? That was one of the most important things that any president could have done for the people, but no, it got whittled down by a Republican majority in Congress and ya ni modo.


Oh, be careful, Justina. You're from the old continent, even an expat in the old continent. We've been dealing with Castro for decades.

Your "Rubbish Isla, the last person with pretensions is or was Castro" is laughable. The guy is talented. A speech he gave in Santiago de Cuba round about 1983 that I saw live was masterful, but my goodness. I remember a press conference he gave in Mexico City in probably 1989. His appearances abroad were still a rare thing and the media based in Mexico ate it up, especially the Mexican journalists. They couldn't stop asking him questions, duplicates and duplicates, 100 variations of how great he was, how brave and valiant. Well, the other 30 members of the Cuban delegation were sooooooooo bored and they didn't care who saw it. They fell asleep, they loudly yawned, they bent over into little enclaves to discuss probably where to have dinner, anything not to give attention to what they all obviously considered a big blowhard, but Castro couldn't get enough of the sound of his own voice, proclaiming his own genius, and this was what, THIRTY YEARS AFTER HE SEIZED POWER!

It was all about him, Justina. By the end of the night when the fawning media finally had enough, there wasn't another upright Cuban and Castro finally sagged when he couldn't talk about himself any more. This was about two months before he sent one of his closest friends to the firing squad by the way, a general who had been with him from the very beginning, so about 35 years. Even that general, the reports came out, had finally seen that with the collapse of the Soviet Union, the Cuban revolution was a complete fiasco, and for raising the questions, he went to the firing squad, one of Castro's oldest friends, a communist through and through. The laughable charge was smuggling drugs, which by itself was probably true, but of course the Castro brothers had allowed the smuggling of drugs for a few decades by then, trying to pump as much poison into the United States, making as many dollars, as they could.

From afar, Castro must look great to some travelers. He is still sending poets to prison for wanting freedom, though. Think about that. How many countries in the world are still sending poets to prison for wanting to publish what they write? North Korea, Cuba, China. A few others. There are a lot of measurements you could use to define despotic regimes, but sending poets to prison for writing seems a pretty basic one and to listen to people who defend such people, well, you're free to do it here, but if you were in Cuba, you could only defend the ones the government allowed you to.


----------



## Meritorious-MasoMenos

Justina said:


> Rubbish Isla, the last person with pretensions is or was Castro. I believe he started out with good intentions and things happened. Think of Obama and his healthcare deal for Americans and what happened to that? That was one of the most important things that any president could have done for the people, but no, it got whittled down by a Republican majority in Congress and ya ni modo.


Your ignorance of America is appalling, but I guess fits in with your credo. The Democrats had a majority in both the House and the Senate when Obama got his healthcare passed. They didn't have a single input from Republicans, nor a single Republican vote. Only Democrats wrote the law, and only Democrats passed it. Democrats didn't have to listen to Republicans. They could have to seek a bipartisan law, but they didn't. So, unlike your beliefs, the Republicans didn't "whittle down" Obamacare y ya ni modo.


----------



## Longford

What about these, to name a few?

Republican Ideas Included in the President's Proposal | The White House


----------



## vantexan

Longford said:


> What about these, to name a few?
> 
> Republican Ideas Included in the President's Proposal | The White House


If they incorporated good ideas into the plan then great. But it is a fact that the Democrats held closed door meetings with no Republicans in attendance and it's a fact that not even many of the Democrats knew everything that was in it as Nancy Pelosi famously said: "We must pass it to find out what's in it." The Democrats with majorities in both houses had complete control of the process. Which is why many are going to pay a political price in the upcoming elections for echoing the President's "If you like your doctor you can keep your doctor."


----------



## vantexan

Justina said:


> Rubbish Isla, the last person with pretensions is or was Castro. I believe he started out with good intentions and things happened. Think of Obama and his healthcare deal for Americans and what happened to that? That was one of the most important things that any president could have done for the people, but no, it got whittled down by a Republican majority in Congress and ya ni modo.


Things happened? Reeducation camps, imprisonment, and firing squads? Attempting to bring Russian missiles to Cuba? There were valid reasons for the revolution. What Castro did afterward wasn't the answer.


----------



## Meritorious-MasoMenos

Longford said:


> What about these, to name a few?
> 
> Republican Ideas Included in the President's Proposal | The White House


Has this thread gone into satire? It is hilarious that someone would offer a press release by the White House to apparently try to say that Republican ideas were included in Obamacare, when the reality, as everyone remembers, is that every single Republican opposed it, that there was a national wave of revulsion against passing Obamacare, that the wave was so intense that Scott Brown got elected in 99% Dem Massachusetts because he would become the vote Republicans needed to halt Obamacare in the Senate, that everyone who is rational will remember that after Scott Brown won decisively, Obama said something like: "Okay, we'll have to respect the will of the people," but soon, the Dems conspired to get around the Brown election by having the Dem-controlled House pass the already approved Senate bill, which even Dems at the time agreed was a monstrosity. Despite about 70% public disapproval, Dems rammed Obamacare through because their philosophy is that if they get a significant portion of the American people hooked on a federal program (Social Security, Medicare), it will never be rolled back, and a new generation of Americans will grow up dependent on the Federal government for everything.

They have succeeded.


----------



## ojosazules11

Meritorious-MasoMenos said:


> From afar, Castro must look great to some travelers. He is still sending poets to prison for wanting freedom, though. Think about that. How many countries in the world are still sending poets to prison for wanting to publish what they write? North Korea, Cuba, China. A few others. There are a lot of measurements you could use to define despotic regimes, but sending poets to prison for writing seems a pretty basic one and to listen to people who defend such people, well, you're free to do it here, but if you were in Cuba, you could only defend the ones the government allowed you to.


I am never in favour of imprisoning poets for their poetry, or other writers, journalists, playwrights, musicians. I absolutely stand with each person's right to freedom of thought and speech (unless it is hate speech filled with racism, anti-Semitism, homophobia, etc. - if someone is fomenting hatred against a group of people, I do think limits need to be placed on them).

But I find it hard not to be cynical about the US's hard line against Cuba, when the US government has at best tacitly tolerated and at worst actively supported repressive regimes around the world, who have done far worse to their poets than imprison them. In Latin America alone countless bright young voices and lives have been brutally cut off by US-backed dictatorships. I have often wondered what Guatemala would be like today if there had not been a CIA sponsored military coup against the democratically elected government of Jacobo Arbenz in 1954. 

The saying goes, "We reap what we sow". However all too often the ones who have reaped what we have sown are the poorest and most vulnerable around the world, along with the idealists, the dreamers and the poets who imagine that with their poetry they just might bring about a bit better world.


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## lagoloo

"We reap what we sow applies to farming. In reality, it's usually someone in power who does the sowing while the less powerful get "reaped".

Example: all the foreign adventures filed under the "war on terror", cooked up by politicians, generals and arms dealers. Crippled and dead soldiers got reaped.


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## Longford

lagoloo said:


> Example: all the foreign adventures filed under the "war on terror", cooked up by politicians, generals and arms dealers. Crippled and dead soldiers got reaped.


Okay. I'll take the 'bait.' What are the "examples" you'd like to cite? The 'cooked up' ones, and maybe for balance ... the ones not cooked up.


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## Meritorious-MasoMenos

ojosazules11 said:


> I am never in favour of imprisoning poets for their poetry, or other writers, journalists, playwrights, musicians. I absolutely stand with each person's right to freedom of thought and speech (unless it is hate speech filled with racism, anti-Semitism, homophobia, etc. - if someone is fomenting hatred against a group of people, I do think limits need to be placed on them).
> 
> But I find it hard not to be cynical about the US's hard line against Cuba, when the US government has at best tacitly tolerated and at worst actively supported repressive regimes around the world, who have done far worse to their poets than imprison them. In Latin America alone countless bright young voices and lives have been brutally cut off by US-backed dictatorships. I have often wondered what Guatemala would be like today if there had not been a CIA sponsored military coup against the democratically elected government of Jacobo Arbenz in 1954.
> 
> The saying goes, "We reap what we sow". However all too often the ones who have reaped what we have sown are the poorest and most vulnerable around the world, along with the idealists, the dreamers and the poets who imagine that with their poetry they just might bring about a bit better world.


Idealism is so nice, and obviously many members love idealism. But I say, pul-leese.

Give me one example of a Marxist regime that has brought prosperity to its people?

China still has the communist party as a dictator, but it became rich only after it embraced capitalism.

During the post WWII era, several strong economic powers that were once basket cases have become very ry ich, all on their own, but all by embracing strong capitalism, very low taxes - Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, the other Tiger whose name escapes me.

Cuba, while it had a nasty dictator and big inequalities, supported itself before 1959. Castro was held afloat only by Soviet Union first, and now, Venezuela, influx from Cuban exiles in Florida and tourists, based on a captive currency only possible in a totalitarian state. Yes, U.S. blockade is stupid, but the U.S. lets the millions of Cubans in Florida sent tons of dollars back and tons and tons of supplies. That is the reality. In addition, any American can now travel to Cuba freely, with no consequences. The so-called blockade is ridiculous, but politically impossible for Republican or Democrat to end, but it's ignored in reality.

To think that Guatemala would have been a peaceful paradise if the 1950s Communist had retained power is such a pipe dream, it takes my breath away. 

The simple fact is that people will never work hard for the state, only for themselves or their families, which means you must protect private property. The only way to enforce a state without property is a police state, a totalitarian state, a la the old Soviet Union, Maoist China or North Korea today. They are all total nightmares. They all tried to destroy families, because families are an anachronism that reinforce property desires.

Marxists and Communists have had numerous opportunities to put their policies into effect in the past 100 years. Marxism looks great on paper, but again, to enforce it, they've already relied on terror. 

And for idealists who love the "peace" that Fidel has brought to Cuba, I refer you to an intellectual I'm sure you all hate, Jean Kirkpatrick. Back in the 70s, she delineated the differences among the dictatorships of the world to explain why the U.S. was morally justified to ally with some, classifying them as totalitarian and authoritarian. Basically, totalitarian regimes, of which old time Fidel was a notable model, demanded that its citizens participate actively in the regime, or you're an enemy of the regime, subject to liquidation, such as Cuba's notorious neighborhood watch groups. Authoritarian regimes left its citizens alone, as long as they didn't actively oppose the regime. Both nasty, but one much better. To crib from Wiki:

"According to Kirkpatrick, authoritarian regimes merely try to control and/or punish their subjects' behaviors, while totalitarian regimes moved beyond that into attempting to control the thoughts of their subjects, using not only propaganda, but brainwashing, re-education, widespread domestic espionage, and mass political repression based on state ideology. Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union are usually grouped together as examples of totalitarian regimes, despite Nazism and Stalinism differing in several key aspects.[4] Totalitarian regimes also often attempt to undermine or destroy community institutions deemed ideologically tainted (e.g., religious ones, or even the nuclear family), while authoritarian regimes by and large leave these alone. For this reason, she argues that the process of restoring democracy is easier in formerly authoritarian than in formerly totalitarian states, and that authoritarian states are more amenable to gradual reform in a democratic direction than are totalitarian states.[citation needed]"

Idealists are too easily swayed if a leftist regime calls itself a "people'e republic," or if it seized the property of the rich of the former regime.

If anyone knew anything about Guatemala, where I lived for three years, they would know that the Communist leaders of the 1950s were mainly men who had lost their avenues to power via traditional means, mostly army officers who would've been quite happy to conform to capitalism of they had seen a way to the top, but like Lucifer, better to rule in Hell than serve in heaven, took up Marxism. They would've been just as despicable as the Sandinistas. I was a journalist in Centram in the 80s and went to Nica a lot. The Sandinistas simply took over the mansions of the Somoza rich and kept it all to themselves. If you had gone to a market at the time, you would've seen the people, the poor people they claimed to represent, having almost nothing to buy, almost no meat, but the Sandinistas put on grand parties for their supporters and foreign journalists, 98 percent of whom slavishly supported the Sandinistas, with huge earth pits of entire cows and pigs barbecuing, all the booze you want for free.

You could go on and on. Mexico is a relative economic powerhouse today, with one of the foremost U.S. economic forecasters last week proclaiming it much better long term investment that the U.S., when it jettisoned its old PRI leftist/Marxist policies, joined NAFTA and opened itself to competition. Brazil and Argentina, both recently ruled by leftish nationalists, have raised many barricades to free trade to "protect their workers." Both are economic basket cases, falling further and further behind Mexico.

And don't get me started on Venezuela. Again, it adopted a Marxist model patterned after Cuba, and now, it can't feed itself. It supposedly has the most proven oil reserves in the world, and can't even supply its citizens with toilet paper.

Result: tens of thousands of Venezuelans flee to the U.S. Why not the paradise of Cuba or Nicaragua, folks? Why not Brazil? Why not Argentina? Because they're all basket cases.

Some members may wonder what would've happened if Guatemala embraced Communism in 1954, but I know. We did them a favor. Or, compare Chile to Argentina.

There is just not any examples of Marxist policies bringing prosperity and freedom to any people, except the Communists themselves.


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## shomer

I'm coming late to this thread, so forgive me for circling back to the subject of Coca Cola in Chiapas. I had the opportunity last week to visit a couple of indigenous towns in the Cauca department of Colombia. When I shared some of my photos of people in traditional clothing from Chamula and Tenejapa in Chiapas with some Misak young people, they commented on the similar clothing colors and styles (and how similar their faces looked!). The one notable difference in appearance: the young Misak people all had good teeth, but almost all of the Mayans in my photos had lots of cheap metal dental work. Fruit juice, despite all the sugar, doesn't dissolve your teeth.


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## citlali

The metal on the teeth in Chiapa is done for beauty or showing you can afford it (that is my take).. many men and women have those , it is not a sign of bad teeth according to the people I spoke with. 
Actually you will see a lot more women in Chamula and Zinacantan have those than in poorer town.
Sugar may not rot teeth but diabetes is rampant . A skinny man I know from Aguacatenango comes by my house on a regular basis when he comes to town to sell his rugs or more exactly the rug he has made that month..In the last 10 years he has gone from ok , to I have suger, to cataract caused by diabetes according to the doctor to getting insuline every day. He is and always was skinny as a rail so weight had nothing to do with it. Both my neighbors have diabetes as well. Every time you turn around another person will say they have "sugar problems". It is pretty bad for everyone, indigenous and mestizos.


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## Longford

citlali said:


> The metal on the teeth in Chiapa is done for beauty or showing you can afford it (that is my take).. many men and women have those , it is not a sign of bad teeth according to the people I spoke with.


I can't speak to the customs in Chiapas, when it comes to dentistry. However, I do know that, in the state of Veracruz, many men border their teeth with silver/metal or have a metal tooth ... as a sign of masculinity.


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## citlali

In Chiapas men and women do it but who knows if it is for he same reason.
Some of the metal on the teeth have designs as well amongst women, I do not know about the men as I do not know one who has metal but you can see them wearing metal as well.


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## ojosazules11

Meritorious-MasoMenos said:


> Idealism is so nice, and obviously many members love idealism. But I say, pul-leese.
> 
> Give me one example of a Marxist regime that has brought prosperity to its people?
> 
> ...
> 
> To think that Guatemala would have been a peaceful paradise if the 1950s Communist had retained power is such a pipe dream, it takes my breath away.
> 
> The simple fact is that people will never work hard for the state, only for themselves or their families, which means you must protect private property. The only way to enforce a state without property is a police state, a totalitarian state, a la the old Soviet Union, Maoist China or North Korea today. They are all total nightmares. They all tried to destroy families, because families are an anachronism that reinforce property desires.
> 
> Marxists and Communists have had numerous opportunities to put their policies into effect in the past 100 years. Marxism looks great on paper, but again, to enforce it, they've already relied on terror.
> 
> ...
> 
> Idealists are too easily swayed if a leftist regime calls itself a "people'e republic," or if it seized the property of the rich of the former regime.
> 
> If anyone knew anything about Guatemala, where I lived for three years, they would know that the Communist leaders of the 1950s were mainly men who had lost their avenues to power via traditional means, mostly army officers who would've been quite happy to conform to capitalism of they had seen a way to the top, but like Lucifer, better to rule in Hell than serve in heaven, took up Marxism.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> Some members may wonder what would've happened if Guatemala embraced Communism in 1954, but I know. We did them a favor. Or, compare Chile to Argentina.
> 
> There is just not any examples of Marxist policies bringing prosperity and freedom to any people, except the Communists themselves.


Say what? I don't know where you get your "facts" but they are certainly differ from most sources I have ever read. Arbenz was a socialist, yes, but not a communist or Marxist. The Communist Party of Guatemala at the time was generally favourable towards him and vice versa, but he was not a communist. He and his predecessor Arevalo were elected by a wide margin in what were considered free and fair elections. From a Wikipedia article (where you can find the corresponding citation of sources): [bolding is mine]

_"Decree 900 (Spanish: Decreto 900), also called the Agrarian Reform Law, was a Guatemalan land reform law passed on June 17, 1952. The law was introduced by President Jacobo Árbenz Guzmán and passed by the Guatemalan Congress. It redistributed unused lands of sizes greater than 224 acres (0.902 km²) to local peasants, compensating landowners with government bonds. Land from at most 1,700 estates was redistributed to about 100,000 families—one sixth of the country's population. *The goal of the legislation was to move Guatemala's economy from feudalism into capitalism.* Although in force for only eighteen months, the law had a major effect on the Guatemalan land reform movement.[1]_

_Indigenous groups, deprived of land since the Spanish conquest, were major beneficiaries of the decree. In addition to raising agricultural output by increasing the cultivation of land, the reform is credited with helping many Guatemalans find dignity and autonomy.[2][3] Decree 900 did create some conflicts in practice, but these were not major, and *the law is described as one of the most potentially successful land reforms in history*. However, redistribution angered major landowners—including the United Fruit Company—and the United States, which construed Guatemala's land reform as a communist threat. Decree 900 was thus a direct impetus for the 1954 coup d'état which deposed Árbenz and instigated decades of Civil War."_

The land reform which earned Arbenz the ire of US interests leading to the CIA sponsored coup would be considered by today's standards to be modest.  This was NOT about expropriating land in order to turn it into state property and forcing people to work on state-owned tracts. Arbenz's land reform expropriated idle, unused land and compensated the owners with government bonds based on what the landowners indicated the value was on the previous year's tax returns. This land was redistributed in small parcels to campesinos, who then owned their small piece of land. How on earth would giving campesinos their own piece of land kill their motivation to work? 

Arbenz himself and some ministers in his government had some of their own land redistributed. When they tried to expropriate unused land owned by the United Fruit Company, as with other landowners they compensated the UFC for the amount UFC had claimed it was worth when it came to paying taxes on it, about $627,000. However the UFC claimed (when it came to compensation rather than taxation) that it was worth over $15 million. 

Arbenz was not a communist. He was not trying to turn Guatemala into a Stalinist state. I don't think Guatemala would be a paradise, but I do think it would be a far better place than it became under repressive military dictatorships and the oligarchy, an oligarchy which has been very successful at controlling their monopolies and undermining any serious competition from business upstarts. The recent events in Iguala of finding mass graves are nothing new in Guatemala, where there is ongoing work of exhuming bodies from these fosas and matching the remains with families of the "disappeared". Over 200,000 Guatemalans were killed or disappeared during the years of military dictatorship and repression, and it has been established by respected independent international investigation that well over 90% of these atrocities were attributable to the government forces. 

I find whether I am listening to voices from the left or the right, any time I hear hyperbole and extreme rhetoric, my radar (or BS detector) kicks in and I try to get more information from a variety of perspectives. Along with confirmable facts, I trust people's lived experiences most of all. I have spoken to many now elderly Guatemalans who recall with deep sadness the end of Guatemala's "Ten years of Spring" 1944 to 1954 under Arevalo and Arbenz, an era filled with so much hope for the future. 

So do I think Guatemala would be better off if Arbenz had not been overthrown? I definitely think the chances would have been much better at building an equitable cohesive functioning society. As it stands I often wonder how this beautiful country with horrific problems after decades of civil war and violent repression will ever heal. But if there is one thing I have learned from Guatemala and her people, it is the amazing resilience of the human spirit.

If anyone is interested in reading more about this history, here are a couple of links:

Jacobo Árbenz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Decree 900 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


MMM, I don't understand why you keep insisting that those of us who don't see Fidel Castro as the devil incarnate therefore must believe Cuba under his authority was a paradise. I used that word in an earlier post only in reference to how a Cuban friend (now living in Canada) described her childhood there in the 70's. I am generally not one to classify any place as all good or all bad, because that leads to dogma and if there is one thing I try to avoid it is dogma.

You also mention that Cuba's economy is heavily reliant on foreign remittances. The same holds true for Mexico.


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## Longford

ojosazules11 said:


> You also mention that Cuba's economy is heavily reliant on foreign remittances. The same holds true for Mexico.


I'm one of those who believe that Mexico's (essentially) force-out/shove-out of its citizens to the USA, which really accellerated furing the presidential six years of Vicente Fo,x was and is still being done in large part to increase the billions of US$ in remittances yearly, money which has, for some years now, provided substantial support to rural Mexico when the federal government itself chose to abandon so many pueblos. 

I further believe that had the government of Mexico not done that it likely would have had more civil unrest on its hands than it has from time to time during this period. Probably a generation was encouraged to leave, many of whom died in the process ... thanks to this IMO shameful national policy. 

Remittances have been important financial lifelines, not just for Mexico (as you mention) ... I understand. I have family in Ireland and my father and his brothers, and his father who gained permission to come to the USA (while his mother and a couple of siblings were denied) sent money home to keep the family in Ireland alive in tough times.


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## wonderphil

Longford said:


> I'm one of those who believe that Mexico's (essentially) force-out/shove-out of its citizens to the USA, which really accellerated furing the presidential six years of Vicente Fo,x was and is still being done in large part to increase the billions of US$ in remittances yearly, money which has, for some years now, provided substantial support to rural Mexico when the federal government itself chose to abandon so many pueblos.
> 
> I further believe that had the government of Mexico not done that it likely would have had more civil unrest on its hands than it has from time to time during this period. Probably a generation was encouraged to leave, many of whom died in the process ... thanks to this IMO shameful national policy.
> 
> Remittances have been important financial lifelines, not just for Mexico (as you mention) ... I understand. I have family in Ireland and my father and his brothers, and his father who gained permission to come to the USA (while his mother and a couple of siblings were denied) sent money home to keep the family in Ireland alive in tough times.


 IMO, much of what you have said above is true, so what. Much of the preceding conversation was about the merits of the basket case communist societies such as Cuba, The Soviet Union, and others who are failed. There are others such as Mainland China and Vietnam who are communist in name but are opening up and it could be argued that they are more capitalistic then we are and especially to many of the basket case failing European socialist countries.

So yes remittances to Mexico are very important for the reasons you said. What has not been said is based in history. For example many years ago I was once on a bus tour out of Cancun to Chichén Itzá; We were driving through a very poor area of shacks and the tour guide was telling that Mexico had free blab blab blab and he was very proud of the fact that Mexico nationalized foreign oil companies 

Mexican oil expropriation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

At that time I worked in the offshore oil industry and I thought to myself that this may have something to do with why these people were so poor, living in dirt with the pigs and chickens in their house. Yes I know that some of pure liberals may think that is good and want that. Anyway the Mexican oil company having no competition and whatever has been mismanaged and corrupt for many years and is just a basket case compared to how it would be with true capitalism. Remember these free enterprise companies (people who invest in these companies) have to risk their money to try to make a profit what faced with many risks and then some commie government like Venezuela can expropriate your investment if you do manage to have some success.


Now 2014 after many years of Mexican government control and no competition in the oil industry : It is a STUPID RESULTS because Mexico has so much untouched natural resources in this area it is ridiculous. 


Natural gas

Mexico is a net importer of natural gas, mostly via pipeline from the United States, and its natural gas demand is rising because of greater use for power generation.

Mexico has considerable natural gas resources, but its production is modest relative to other North American countries (See Liquid Fuels and Natural Gas in the Americas). The development of its shale gas resources is proceeding slowly. Mexico's import needs are rising as domestic production stagnates and demand increases, particularly in the electricity sector. Consequently, Mexico will rely on increased pipeline imports of natural gas from the United States and liquefied natural gas (LNG) from other countries.

If you look at a map of oil wells in the USA and Mexico sectors of the gulf of Mexico you can see that the Mexican sector is very undeveloped in comparison.

To their credit, The Mexican government of Enrique Peña Nieto, has taken steps to reopen up the oil industry to foreign competition. 

Mexico could make North America the world leader in oil production - Washington Times

In summary; Socialist and Communist policies by governments have made it a reason for the necessity of depending on foreign remittances for the people to survive. IMO, It is not something that a tour bus guide with half of a open minded brain to brag about. Or if that you only a ******(a) you should not think that you are doing good things by wanting to make everyone equally poor, STUPID and indoctrinated in communist philosophy.
:boxing:


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## citlali

Denmark, Finland , Sweeden, Netherland arre not doing bdly with some of hteir socialist policies so much for your summary.


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## citlali

A country not taking care of the old , sick or poor i has a long way to go before it can be called great.


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## Longford

wonderphil said:


> IMO, much of what you have said above is true, so what.


I don't know, but I'm suspecting that you could be spending too much time standing in front of a mirror, railing against the _pure Liberals_, the _Socialists_ and the _Communists_ and that you're impressed by how you don't hear anyone offering comments other than yours. 

My sense is that you're taking yourself a bit too seriously, professor. :cheer2:

So, here's one of the _bad guys_ you can rail against (though he may be too much of a lefty for your preferences) ... when Rush Limbaugh, or Fox News, Ted Cruz or the crazies in the Tea Party fail to provide _the end is near_ folks enough in the way of targets ... it'll lighten the load. 










All the best. Seriously.


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## buzzbar

Interesting thread….it transported me back to 1980/81 when curiosity and youthful recklessness had me wandering around El Salvador and Nicaragua, at that time the epicenter of the classic struggle between peasants/indigenous and wealthy land owners. I was in El Salvador the night Reagan was first elected and can remember the owner of the hotel warning me not to go outside because of “las bombas.” I cautiously looked out a window and saw that in fact the explosions were fireworks being set off by the military guys who guarded each road intersection. In spite of their youthfulness, and the fact that the outgoing Carter had upped military aid to El Salvador, they still understood enough to celebrate death squads now having a real friend in the White House. 

Just weeks later the Salvadoran National Guard arrested four American nuns at the airport, took them away, then bashed, raped and murdered them. I can’t speak for others Meritorious-MasoMenos, but your definition of Jeane Kirkpatrick as “an intellectual I'm sure you all hate” holds true for me. She will be forever remembered and condemned for her defence of the El Salvadorean regime’s brutality: “I don't think the government was responsible. The nuns were not just nuns; the nuns were political activists.”

Then it was a train trip across the country to La Union, from where the ferry to Nicaragua left. While there I followed the rest of the town to a meeting held by a new organisation, FMLN, which was the unification of the country’s resistance organisations. I had no great knowledge of Spanish at that time so little idea what was said in the speeches, but the excitement and passion of the townspeople in the room was unmistakable. I was given a small paper stamp with the FMLN name and logo on it, something I treasured for many years until it eventually disintegrated. USA gave military and financial support to the Salvadorean government over the entire length of the civil war – if it's true that Castro provided support for the FMLN then my esteem for him is further increased. 

In Nicaragua it was the brief golden period for the Sandinistas, when they were introducing a wide range of social justice reforms. All came to end shortly after I left the country, when the USA financed Contras started assassinating Government members, mining the country’s harbors and kidnapping, torturing and killing civilians. I didn’t get an invite to those grand Sandinista parties that Meritorious-MasoMenos tells us about - I was in the countryside, talking with people and seeing first hand their elation over the Sandinista’s literacy drives, educational advances and agrarian reforms. “Look, we have a tractor!” someone who must have been at least 80 years old shouted at me, seemingly still in a state of disbelief that such a miracle was possible. 

At that time, support for the Sandinistas appeared to be universal. Of course people initially assumed we were Americans, so when we were on the sidewalk nearly everyone we passed would spit on the ground in front of us and hiss “Somocista.” Loved it!

Anyway, the point of all this rambling was to comment on Longford's mention of “pure Liberals, the Socialists and the Communists.” As I assume he's highlighting, supporting an academically defined political system is difficult when our observations and experience often throw up nuances and exceptions that don’t fit the black and white intellectual labels that are frequently applied to belief systems.

And as well as influences from our practical experiences, there’s also our own innate views on justice and fairness to people in general and the disadvantaged in particular, whether it’s the sick and disabled in developed countries like USA, or the landless and oppressed in Central America.


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## michmex

Hound Dog said:


> From _PROCESO.COM.MX_, 23/09/2014:
> 
> "*CONSUMPTION OF COCA COLA IS THE CAUSE OF AN EPIDEMIC OF DIABETES AND OBESITY IN CHIAPAS"*
> 
> TUXTLA GUTIERREZ
> 
> Activists and investigators advised today that the state (of Chiapas) is experiencing a "state of emergency" as a result of and increase in the levels of obesity and diabetes due to the the high consumption of sugared soft drinks.
> 
> At a press conference, activists urged state and federal authorities to invest more economic resources to combat these (widespread) infirmities by taking action to eradicate the consumption of sugared soft drinks.
> 
> In a presentation of a the video _SWEET AGONY _that exposed the grave threat to public health represented by the consumption of soft drinks, the advocates posited that the consumption of soft drinks was triggering cases of obesity and diabetes.
> 
> Mexico is, they advised, the largest consumer of Coca Cola in the world and Chiapas is the state where Coca Cola is most consumed (per capita) among all Mexican states, (and that consumption is) particularly (high) in indigenous municipalities in the Chiapas Highlands, especially San Juan Chamula.
> 
> Marcos Arana Cadeño, Director of the Center for Ecological and Health Training and Defense of Health Rights for Campesinos, Jaime Page Pliego, UNAM Investigator, Alejandro Calvillo, Director of Consumer Rights and Amarantha Rodríguez of Cacto Productions, urged Governor Velasco to exercise his power to diniminish the impact of this epidemic.
> 
> Calvillo advised that "Weighing the situation of the poor who live in Chiapas (with the state's (disastrous) showing regarding obesity and malnutrición among other states in the union), ...(this) is a perfect situation for a health catastrophe." He further stated that,"It is abundantly clear that we need to increase the consumption of wáter and raise the conciousness (in the community) of the disastrous consequences of the consumption of soft drinks and especially Coca Cola for their high sugar content. Probably, Coca Cola is the major addiction of the indigenous communities of Chiapas."
> 
> The article in _PROCESO_ goes on at some length citing statistics supporting their contentions and to advise that this epifdemic is especially a problem in the state´s coastal zone and central highlands and if readers are interested in further information on this subject, the article can be found at _PROCESO´s _web site.
> 
> Although I think it is unfair to single out Coca Cola when there are many purveyors of soft drinks everywhere in Mexico and around much of the world, this excessive consumption of high sugar soft drinks is a serious matter and I am not making light of it since I live in Chiapas and know malnutrición and consumption of sugared soft drinks to be major problems there but, nevertheless, I am reminded of a scene from Stanley Kubrick´s 1964 movie, _Dr. Strangelove _when Peter Sellers as Captain Mandrake, in need of change to use the pay phone to call the president and to warn the president of the impending danger of atomic warfare, demanded of Col. "Bat" Guano, played by Keenan Wynn, that he shoot the lock on the Coca Cola machine in the room in order to retrieve change to use the pay phone (remember those?) and Col. Guano retorted, "But, that´s private property!" When Captain Mandrake continued to insist that Col. Guano shoot the machine so they could retrieve change to call the president and that he do it immediately, Col. Guano stated, "Well, OK, I´m gonna shoot the machine and get you your change, but you know what´s gonna happen to you don´t you? You´re gonna have to answer to the Coca Cola Company."


The situation with Coca Cola is spiraling out of control!!!!!

From RT.com,

"An owner of a wildlife sanctuary in Mexico came under fierce attack from his own camel and was mauled to death. Investigators wonder whether the animal became enraged because it did not get its daily dose of Coca Cola."

http://rt.com/news/196880-camel-kill-soda-wildpark/


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## Hound Dog

[_QUOTE=michmex;5512321]The situation with Coca Cola is spiraling out of control!!!!!

From RT.com,

"An owner of a wildlife sanctuary in Mexico came under fierce attack from his own camel and was mauled to death. Investigators wonder whether the animal became enraged because it did not get its daily dose of Coca Cola."

http://rt.com/news/196880-camel-kill-soda-wildpark/[/QUOTE]_

Dawg has ridden camels in different parts of the world and they can be cantankerous for many reasons but I´ll bet Coca-Cola withdrawal is one thing that could really piss off a camel. .

I am pleased you enjoyed my quote from _PROCESO.COM_´s 28/09/14 electronic publication, mich. My Spanish teacher keeps giving me these news articles to translate as an intellectual discipline in the hope that, after all this time in Mexico (14 years) I may begin to grasp the language, at least as presented by the press, and make some cultural progress but, what the hell, I lived in France for years and married one of them over 40 years ago and I still don´t understand the French so do not have high expectations of my success.

My new assignment, also from _PROCESO:COM_; is to translate an article out of Ayotzinapa, Guerrero which recounts the protests of "normalistas" attending the teacher´s college there and representatives of the Popular National Assembly demanding that the federal government "...come up with the 43 students, still breathing and unharmed, who have disappeared or, alternatievly, risk the paralization of the country." I won´t quote the article but let´s just say that political insurrection is threatened.

Longford of Chicago, upon whom 20/20 visión is always bestowed, especially at great distance and in retrospect, must love this threatened civil disorder in the edgy country of Mexico . From thousands of kilometers away, our weaknesses are easily discerned from the bases of civil unrest from Oaxaca City to Chilpanzingo. Such insight is superficially laudatory. An ugly wart is always more visible from a thousand miles away than that distorting the nose of an admired colleague at the same table.


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## joaquinx

ojosazules11 said:


> You also mention that Cuba's economy is *heavily* reliant on foreign remittances. The same holds true for Mexico.


The key word in this sentence is "heavily." While this can be said of Cuba, the same can not be said of Mexico. It is a source of income for Mexico, but not "heavily."


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## ojosazules11

joaquinx said:


> The key word in this sentence is "heavily." While this can be said of Cuba, the same can not be said of Mexico. It is a source of income for Mexico, but not "heavily."


You are right, Joaquin, and it appears that the word “heavily” reliant applies to neither the Mexican nor the Cuban economy. I guess it would be more accurate to state that the “household economy” of many low-income Mexican families is heavily reliant on foreign remittances, not the Mexican economy as a whole.

The World Bank has a summary of foreign remittances as percentage of GDP for many countries. For Mexico from 2009 – 2013 remittances ranged from *1.8 - 2.5%* of GDP. Cuba’s stats were not included in the World Bank Summary, but if I take the estimated amount of remittances to Cuba from the US Dept of State’s stats (in 2013 estimated at $1.4 – 2.0 Billion, so middle value is $1.7 billion) and take that at as a percentage of Cuba’s GDP of $72.3 billion (2012 est., I couldn’t find a reliable figure for 2013), the percentage is *2.35%*. So it would seem the 2 economies have roughly the same level of reliance on foreign remittances. 

In comparison those Central American countries which were dominated for years by right-wing oligarchies and military dictatorships are much more dependent on remittances. Guatemala ‘s “remittances as percentage of GDP” is about 10%, El Salvador about 16%, Honduras about 17%.


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## Isla Verde

ojosazules11 said:


> You are right, Joaquin, and it appears that the word “heavily” reliant applies to neither the Mexican nor the Cuban economy. I guess it would be more accurate to state that the “household economy” of many low-income Mexican families is heavily reliant on foreign remittances, not the Mexican economy as a whole.
> 
> The World Bank has a summary of foreign remittances as percentage of GDP for many countries. For Mexico from 2009 – 2013 remittances ranged from *1.8 - 2.5%* of GDP. Cuba’s stats were not included in the World Bank Summary, but if I take the estimated amount of remittances to Cuba from the US Dept of State’s stats (in 2013 estimated at $1.4 – 2.0 Billion, so middle value is $1.7 billion) and take that at as a percentage of Cuba’s GDP of $72.3 billion (2012 est., I couldn’t find a reliable figure for 2013), the percentage is *2.35%*. So it would seem the 2 economies have roughly the same level of reliance on foreign remittances.
> 
> In comparison those Central American countries which were dominated for years by right-wing oligarchies and military dictatorships are much more dependent on remittances. Guatemala ‘s “remittances as percentage of GDP” is about 10%, El Salvador about 16%, Honduras about 17%.


Thanks for providing us with these figures, ojosazules. I recall seeing in several places the fact that the remittances in dollars are Mexico's second largest source of foreign revenue. Here's one source I just found;

"In Latin America's second-largest economy, income from remittances ranks just below what Mexico earns from petroleum, tourism and the automotive industry –- yet remittances account for only 2.3 percent of the GDP." 

Slow U.S. growth, zero immigration hurt remittances to Mexico - SmartPlanet


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## AlanMexicali

Isla Verde said:


> Thanks for providing us with these figures, ojosazules. I recall seeing in several places the fact that the remittances in dollars are Mexico's second largest source of foreign revenue. Here's one source I just found;
> 
> "In Latin America's second-largest economy, income from remittances ranks just below what Mexico earns from petroleum, tourism and the automotive industry –- yet remittances account for only 2.3 percent of the GDP."
> 
> Slow U.S. growth, zero immigration hurt remittances to Mexico - SmartPlanet


It might have missed the statistics but millions of US dollars cross the border every month by vehicle and foot in peoples´ pockets or purses or pesos if they change them before crossing and are given to family members by children who live in the US near the border that help support their families in Mexico. I think these statistics you read are from international bank transfers and Western Union type financial documents.


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## Longford

Whatever the % of GDP, 20+ Billion (US$) a year in the hands of residents of small towns in Mexico ... has a significant impact. The remittances have provided funds, sometimes matched by the federal government, which have been used for community improvements as well as family support.


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## ojosazules11

I have no doubt of the benefits of these remittances, as we send regular remittances ourselves. I was pulling up the statistics just out of interest to see how much discrepancy there was between Cuba and Mexico in terms of percentage of the GDP. I actually had no idea how close they would be. I was not surprised to see how much larger a percentage the remittances represent in Central America.

Of course the statistics are dry, and don't tell the whole story, but they at least provide a benchmark for comparison between countries.


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