# FBAR question



## cloudyjoe

I immigrated to Canada over 50 years ago, and took out Canadian Citizenship as soon as I could. Back then, the US did not recognize dual citizenship (which was fine with me), and I have always regarded myself as CANADIAN, and nothing else. For example, when traveling into the US on vacation, I have always declared myself 'Canadian'. I've never held any passport except Canadian.

Is the US now claiming as part of this 'FBAR' thing that I'm still an American?? And that I should have been filing US taxes all this time? That would seem ridiculous!

Can someone please bring me up to date?

Thanks.


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## Bevdeforges

To be honest, it's really hard to tell in cases like yours. Technically speaking, if you don't have a "certificate of renunciation" they could claim that you still are a US citizen. However, you'd first have to show up on their radar somehow. 

Yes, you probably should have been filing US tax returns all this time. However, it's really unlikely you would have owed any taxes in all this time. You only would have been required to file if your income exceeded the filing thresholds for the various years. And you'd only have had to file an FBAR for those years in which your "foreign" (i.e. non-US) accounts totaled more than $10,000 (in total). Now, how the IRS is going to discover your failure to file is anyone's guess at this point. 
Cheers,
Bev


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## graubart

You RELINQUISHED your U.S. citizenship when you became a Canadian 50 years ago. The U.S. changed the law and is trying to claim you but you don't have to agree. No need to RENOUNCE, you merely need to demonstrate your relinquishment to receive a CLN (Certificate of Loss of Nationality). Details are available online at various expat sites.

Filing anything for the U.S. will invalidate your relinquishment so you probably don't want to to that.


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## maz57

@ Cloudyjoe. If you became a Canadian almost fifty years ago, the Canadian citizenship oath you took contained a section where you renounced all other allegiances. If you still have a copy, fine. If you don't, you can get a copy from the Canadian government. (Might take a few months.) Once you have that document you can carry it with you for peace of mind along with your Canadian passport if you travel to the US and need to fend off a bullying border guard. 

Don't waste your time and money trying to prove you are NOT something. Even contacting the US government indicates uncertainty on your part. The US government doesn't know or care about you; their only possible interest in you is to extort money. Don't give them that opportunity. 

There is a lot of confusion and misinformation floating around the internet and media these days. The simple fact is that you are a Canadian, only a Canadian, and have been for almost fifty years. Continue to act like a Canadian; don't let a foreign government interfere in your Canadian life. No good can come from stirring up this hornet's nest. You owe the US government nothing; not even an explanation.


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## Nononymous

Based on what I've read elsewhere, by taking Canadian citizenship 50 years ago, you relinquished US citizenship and therefore have no tax or FBAR obligations.

If however you have a US birthplace on your Canadian passport, it's theoretically possible you might have some problems at the US border - you would be considered a US citizen and told to use a US passport. They never used to care about this, but now it seems like they are starting to take the rule more seriously. In which case you would want some sort of documentation, ideally the CLN (Certificate of Loss of Nationality) from the US government.


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## Pacifica

From what you’ve said, you terminated your US citizenship when you naturalised in Canada, according to the _Immigration and Nationalities Act_, s. 349(a)(1). But in order to have this recognised by the US govt, you would have to apply for a Certificate of Loss of Nationality at a US consulate. 

The US will recognise that you lost your US citizenship upon acquiring Canadian citizenship if (1) your loss of US citizenship was voluntary, (2) your loss of US citizenship was intentional, and (3) your post-relinquishment conduct has been consistent with that of a non-US-citizen. If you meet these criteria, Dept of State will issue a CLN which states that you expatriated yourself on [the date you became a Canadian citizen].

Dept of State uses the document that BBC Watcher referred to, DS-4079, “Request for Determination of Loss of Citizenship” which is a 4-page questionnaire, to make this determination. The consular official you meet probably with won’t ask you anything at all (unless they need clarification of something you wrote on your 4079) and, btw, they tend to be very pleasant to deal with. You meet with one for about 10-15 minutes, after you’ve met with a clerk for 5-10 minutes.


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## Nononymous

To reiterate, you are not on the US radar for tax or FBAR or anything, so you can just keep quiet on that score, at least for the time being. Don't do a thing.

Getting a CLN would only be necessary if you are travelling to the US on a Canadian passport that shows a US birthplace, and if this causes problems. If the Federales are happy with a verbal declaration that you gave up US citizenship 50 years ago, then it's not a problem. But it's theoretically possible that you could run into a jerk who gives you some grief (since technically US citizens must have a valid US passport to enter the US, and with a US birthplace you would have to prove that you're not a citizen).


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## cloudyjoe

I'll accept the advice to keep my head down, but I saw something elsewhere that raises another issue: our son. Apparently, at some Canadian banks, account owners are going to have to fill in a form that asks for the country of birth of their parents. This is unbelievable! If he does, he'll put me on their radar! If he lies on the form, that might cause other problems. (Plus, being a good Canadian, he doesn't like to lie.)

He was born a couple years after I immigrated (he's 49 now), and has lived his whole life in Canada thinking he's strictly a Canadian. Now some sources say he's got US citizenship, and he's got to deal with the IRS on this bulls**t or he might never be able to travel into the US after this FBAR thing comes into effect.

He's upset at even the thought of being regarded as an American.

Can anybody tell me the facts about this? I'm getting pretty riled up at our banks and our government for letting all this happen.


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## Bevdeforges

The situation with all that bank reporting nonsense that the IRS is trying to force on foreign banks is clear as mud. The only real leverage they have is with banks that have branches in the US. So one approach is to move your deposits into a small regional bank that isn't into cross-border business, if you can.

However asking for where your parents were born does seem to be just a tad excessive. My last meeting with my bank adviser (we have those here in France), I asked the guy to update my records to show my French nationality (acquired a few years ago) and to remove the reference to my US nationality. He had no idea why I was asking, but he was perfectly happy to do so. I suppose it depends on whether or not your bank is going to let the IRS auditors in to search for "possible American citizens" in its records.
Cheers,
Bev


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## Nononymous

cloudyjoe said:


> I'll accept the advice to keep my head down, but I saw something elsewhere that raises another issue: our son. Apparently, at some Canadian banks, account owners are going to have to fill in a form that asks for the country of birth of their parents. This is unbelievable! If he does, he'll put me on their radar! If he lies on the form, that might cause other problems. (Plus, being a good Canadian, he doesn't like to lie.)
> 
> He was born a couple years after I immigrated (he's 49 now), and has lived his whole life in Canada thinking he's strictly a Canadian. Now some sources say he's got US citizenship, and he's got to deal with the IRS on this bulls**t or he might never be able to travel into the US after this FBAR thing comes into effect.
> 
> He's upset at even the thought of being regarded as an American.
> 
> Can anybody tell me the facts about this? I'm getting pretty riled up at our banks and our government for letting all this happen.


Currently, as Bev says, the facts are clear as mud. But I think you're seeing this as being worse than it is - a common enough reaction when you first learn of this silliness.

Canadian banks and (to their credit) governments aren't happy about this. But they've got a gun held to their heads - the threat of withholding on US transactions.

You can Google around for information on FATCA and Canada. It's probably a couple of years away, and it's not clear what banks will ask their existing clients, and I suspect that in Canada at any rate, the Scheiße is going to hit the fan rather enormously. I tend to the view that nothing close to what the IRS wants will actually happen here. So take a wait-and-see attitude. 

In the possibly unlikely event that Canadian banks begin asking all 30 million (?) account holders citizenship questions, I expect wholesale lying or refusal to comply. Personally, that's not something I'd have a big ethical nightmare doing - it's just a practical matter of risks.

Asking about parental birthplace seems especially far-fetched, since US citizenship is not automatically passed on through the generations.

Your son's citizenship is probably something that should be investigated. If you lost US citizenship when you were naturalized (or if you lived less than five years in the US) then he's not a US citizen. But from a practical standpoint, if he has a Canadian birthplace on his Canadian passport, he should never have any problems travelling to the US, because they would never think of him as possibly being a citizen. He is well and truly under the radar and should stay there.

Just to compare, I am a dual US/Canadian citizen. Born in the US to Canadian parents, moved back as a small child, spent five or so years in the US for grad school in the 90s (worked and filed tax returns during those years) and have had a couple of US passports, although the last one expired three years ago. After looking at the risks (none at present, maybe some down the road) and rewards (lack of paperwork hassle, possible saving on self-employment tax that I'd have to pay) I've decided to remain non-compliant. If FATCA comes to pass I'll move my accounts to a local credit union, or simply lie. I have no connection to the US, no US assets or potential inheritances to worry about. Right now the only concern is that for the first time, I was told at the border that I needed a valid US passport, being a citizen on account of the damn birthplace. So I'm working on a way of renewing the passport that, while not technically lying, still keeps me off the IRS radar. That will buy me ten years of peace. Renouncing seems like an expensive can of worms. 

Anyway, in your case, I would do nothing, unless you are having problems entering the US on a Canadian passport, in which case you might want to obtain the CLN. In your son's case, forget you even had the conversation.


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## cloudyjoe

Hold the phone!

I just heard second-hand from a US citizenship lawyer that my son is NOT a US citizen. It seems that we would have had to register his 'foreign birth' at a US consulate, or fill out certain forms before he was 18 and submit them to US authorities to claim US citizenship for him. As we did none of these things--thank heavens!--he is a Canadian, and ONLY a Canadian. And he is much relieved, as am I.

It also appears that it would be relatively straight forward for me to go through the CLN (Certificate of Loss of Nationality) process, and hence clear myself of all possible future trouble with the DGY (Damn Grasping Yankees). I will contemplate doing this for only one reason: if someone ends up in the US unintentionally--such as flying to Mexico, but, because of plane trouble, putting down in, say, LA--then that someone could end up in the grasp of the dreaded IRS if their name has been flagged in the US computer system. Not at all likely, but possible... with big consequences.

Thanks for all the advice and info. This is a great group... people helping people!


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## Bevdeforges

> It seems that we would have had to register his 'foreign birth' at a US consulate, or fill out certain forms before he was 18 and submit them to US authorities to claim US citizenship for him. As we did none of these things--thank heavens!--he is a Canadian, and ONLY a Canadian. And he is much relieved, as am I.


Actually, you don't absolutely have to register a foreign birth or fill out those forms before he turns 18. However, the cases I've heard of where folks were able to claim US citizenship without those particular formalities have all been cases where the potential US citizen was trying to claim their "birthright." 

It remains to be seen how far the IRS will go with this latest round of "hunting down" potential US citizens but if your son is off the radar, I wouldn't worry too much about him being found out. In the current financial climate, even the IRS is having its budgets cut back. They're going to focus their resources on finding out flagrant offenders stashing ill gotten gains overseas, and I doubt they'll bother with those of us without zillions stashed away in secret accounts.
Cheers,
Bev


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## Nononymous

I think your second-hand information may not be quite accurate. The way I understand it is that the US would consider your son a citizen if he met the criteria (i.e. you were a citizen at the time of his birth and had lived at least five years in the US, or something along those lines). The registration of birth abroad etc. is necessary to make this claim so that he could get a passport - but in a strictly technical sense he is and would always be a citizen (i.e. you can't escape citizenship by not applying for it).

But this is all theological hair-splitting. If he has a Canadian birthplace he'll never be suspected, and if you gave up your US citizenship, he isn't infected. 

At present the border folks have no access to IRS data, so you don't get flagged at the border for not having filed taxes. Period. (Don't confuse this with a serious tax violator having a warrant out for their arrest.) As far as I know there are no reported cases of anyone being hassled for tax or FBAR compliance at the border.

As I said, ignore this and return to normal life (unless you have trouble crossing the border with the US birthplace on a Canadian passport, in which case you need the CLN). If FATCA comes to life in a few years, might be worth getting the CLN to show your bank.


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## Zendo

Nononymous said:


> After looking at the risks (none at present, maybe some down the road) and rewards (lack of paperwork hassle, possible saving on self-employment tax that I'd have to pay) I've decided to remain non-compliant. If FATCA comes to pass I'll move my accounts to a local credit union, or simply lie. I have no connection to the US, no US assets or potential inheritances to worry about. Right now the only concern is that for the first time, I was told at the border that I needed a valid US passport, being a citizen on account of the damn birthplace. So I'm working on a way of renewing the passport that, while not technically lying, still keeps me off the IRS radar. That will buy me ten years of peace. Renouncing seems like an expensive can of worms.


Your candid reply is refreshing, but also disconcerting. :rain:

My impression is that most people who post on this forum want to comply simply because they maintain some vital connection to the US, whether it is in the form of assests or family or the prospect of retaining social security benefits.

But, yes, what about those who have absolutely no connection whatsoever to the US and never will?

I am one of these individuals. And, although I am going through the motions to figure out how to put everything together, I'm not really sure if it's worth the hassle. And I'm not even sure if I can – emotionally, physically and financially. 

I have never worked in the US and thus never had to file. Moreover, I have no assests there or other financial or family connections and no reason or plans to ever return. Perhaps it is also worth mentioning that I also have little assets here, despite what some might think about Switzerland. So, what can the IRS really do to a potential non-compliant someone like me? Even with FATCA?


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## Nononymous

Zendo said:


> I have never worked in the US and thus never had to file. Moreover, I have no assests there or other financial or family connections and no reason or plans to ever return. Perhaps it is also worth mentioning that I also have little assets here, despite what some might think about Switzerland. So, what can the IRS really do to a potential non-compliant someone like me? Even with FATCA?


As a US citizen in Switzerland, you will probably have more problems with your bank than you will with the IRS. (That's one of the reasons more folks are renouncing now.)

When long-term expats or dual-citizen "accidental Americans" (children born abroad who unbeknownst to them are citizens) first learn of this, there seem to be three reactions:

(1) fear - the IRS is going to find me, and take half my life savings
(2) anger - closely related to fear, above
(3) honesty - these are the rules and I must comply because it's the honest thing to do, even if it's not in my interests (not to perpetuate a cliche, but Canadians and Germans both suffer from this)

Number 1 pretty much goes away once you investigate a bit further, particularly if you have zero assets in or connection to the US. Number 2 disappears as well - these are stupid laws, but if you can ignore them, who cares? Number 3 is the one that really puzzles me - really, why be such a sheep?

Anyway, I would not presume to give you direct advice, but in your situation you could certainly consider ignoring your obligations and remaining non-compliant. The two possible problems you'll have are either your Swiss bank will drop you as a customer or disclose your existence to the IRS, and you may have to fudge it or reveal yourself when renewing your US passport. (But in either case, if the IRS has your name, address and SSN, so what?)


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## Ruth Vanita

*Fbar*

I have a couple of questions about FBAR.

We are now allowed to efile it through the BSA website. However, there are no instructions about how to sign and date it. Typing a signature doesn't seem to work. Does anyone know anything about this?

Also, the form says we can copy a page if all our accounts do not fit on one page. However, the pdf document does not allow one to paste a page into it. So I am stuck.


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## Bevdeforges

I never got very far with the BSA site - don't remember the exact problem I had, but if I recall, there was a limit to the number of accounts you can report using that site.

If you're using the pdf forms, you ultimately have to print them off. I think they expect you to just print off any extra pages you need (blank) and fill them in. Or download another copy of the form to get a second page of any of the pages you need.
Cheers,
Bev


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## Zendo

Nononymous said:


> As a US citizen in Switzerland, you will probably have more problems with your bank than you will with the IRS. (That's one of the reasons more folks are renouncing now.)
> 
> When long-term expats or dual-citizen "accidental Americans" (children born abroad who unbeknownst to them are citizens) first learn of this, there seem to be three reactions:
> 
> (1) fear - the IRS is going to find me, and take half my life savings
> (2) anger - closely related to fear, above
> (3) honesty - these are the rules and I must comply because it's the honest thing to do, even if it's not in my interests (not to perpetuate a cliche, but Canadians and Germans both suffer from this)
> 
> Number 1 pretty much goes away once you investigate a bit further, particularly if you have zero assets in or connection to the US. Number 2 disappears as well - these are stupid laws, but if you can ignore them, who cares? Number 3 is the one that really puzzles me - really, why be such a sheep?
> 
> Anyway, I would not presume to give you direct advice, but in your situation you could certainly consider ignoring your obligations and remaining non-compliant. The two possible problems you'll have are either your Swiss bank will drop you as a customer or disclose your existence to the IRS, and you may have to fudge it or reveal yourself when renewing your US passport. (But in either case, if the IRS has your name, address and SSN, so what?)


I wish I had your composure. But, I'm seem to be oscillating between (1) and (2). And as for (3), I am honest but not a sheep. 

I quote from another post I put on this forum
_With this Authorization, the Client hereby expressly waives any protection or right under Swiss bank-client confidentiality and data protection laws to the extent necessary for the reporting of any Data hereunder. Further, the client accepts and acknowedges that any data that the bank discloses hereunder to the IRS will be subject to the laws of the US and will not be covered by Swiss laws. The laws and regulations in the US may follow different principles of bank-client confidentiality or data protection than Swiss law._

(... _any data_ ... ) I may be a bit skeptical at present. But, that all looks very disturbing.

If the banks here start doing this, than I can imagine them starting elsewhere.


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## Nononymous

Zendo said:


> If the banks here start doing this, than I can imagine them starting elsewhere.


The Swiss banks have been hit hard by the US because they've been a tax haven. Canada and other countries are in a different situation, though the pressure is beginning.

In your shoes, I'd relax. So the IRS gets your name and bank account number. What exactly can it do to you? If you're worried, file tax returns and FBARs (assuming that you even need to) and this will go away. If you're not worried, continue as you were. 

I'm relaxed because I don't think there's anything to fear, at least at present. If it's in my interests to become compliant, I'll do it. Over a year ago I decided not to, but I keep hanging around on this forum because I figure I'm doing a good deed telling people not to freak out, and that they don't necessarily have to do what the US government tells them. (Also, it's a great time-waster.)


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## Bevdeforges

I suppose that if you were raised in the US and paid taxes there before moving elsewhere, you get used to the IRS tactics when it comes to "encouraging" compliance. It's well known that, in the US, they issue press releases about "tax cheats" who have been arrested and sentenced to long terms just before the domestic due date for tax returns.

I suspect they did the big shock and awe campaign in Canada because it's close by and easy to deal with the press there. 

The IRS has a limited presence outside the US. Actually, there are only 3 IRS offices outside the US: London, Paris and one in China, Beijing I think it is. The biggest exposure most US expats have are any accounts or claims to benefits (primarily US Social Security) they have back in the US. 

But I agree with Nononymous - there's no point in losing too much sleep over US filing obligations. You have to assess your own level of risk: if you were to become 100% compliant, how much tax would you owe that you aren't paying now? If the answer is a small number or $0, then you make a "good faith" effort to give them roughly what they want - or you stay below the radar (provided your bank isn't handing over all their records to the IRS). If you've got more at risk, or investments that "look suspicious" then you have more to lose by not filing, or by filing an incomplete return.
Cheers,
Bev


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## Nononymous

Bevdeforges said:


> I suspect they did the big shock and awe campaign in Canada because it's close by and easy to deal with the press there.


It's been quiet for about 18 months. There was some press coverage in the summer and fall of 2011, around the time of the OVDI. Typical examples of outrage, such as the US-born father moaning that his Canadian-born kids could lose half their education savings to FBAR fines. But since then, not much, the odd small article about FATCA and that's it really.


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