# LPG Gas Fires



## wiggytheone (Dec 3, 2012)

Hi all 

Hope this has not been covered before but we have just bought a new LPG insert gas fire shipped out from the UK. (Flavel) Now all should have been simple. Installed by a Spanish Gas certifier and should be running on Propane bottles (Repsol) However we are having a nightmare the fire will light no problem then after about 10-20 mins the pilot flame starts popping (lifting) then the fire cuts out (FSD or thermocouple). Other time the fire goes through a popping stage then settles down. At the moment we have taken baffle from the back of the fire to allow more draw around the fire thinking this may help, however it does not appear to have done so. Now we are sitting here with the fire running but with no coals on it all seems well. Draw test ok Spillage test ok 

Anyone any thoughts or experience with this would be welcome. Or a contact address

Sorry my first post is a problem


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

There are so many things it could be. There was another thread on this issue some time back but I couldn't find it. I assume you have a regulator on the gas bottle? It could be that. I have also heard that some fires have an automatic cut off if there is a build up of carbon monoxide. But with gas the best thing is to seek professional help. Maybe someone on the fourm could recommend somebody.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

thrax said:


> There are so many things it could be. There was another thread on this issue some time back but I couldn't find it. I assume you have a regulator on the gas bottle? It could be that. I have also heard that some fires have an automatic cut off if there is a build up of carbon monoxide. But with gas the best thing is to seek professional help. Maybe someone on the fourm could recommend somebody.


if it's the same problem - & it sounds like it could be - jojo posted about it a few years ago - istr that she got a new regulator from a ferretería


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## virgil (May 3, 2012)

wiggytheone said:


> Hi all
> 
> Hope this has not been covered before but we have just bought a new LPG insert gas fire shipped out from the UK. (Flavel) Now all should have been simple. Installed by a Spanish Gas certifier and should be running on Propane bottles (Repsol) However we are having a nightmare the fire will light no problem then after about 10-20 mins the pilot flame starts popping (lifting) then the fire cuts out (FSD or thermocouple). Other time the fire goes through a popping stage then settles down. At the moment we have taken baffle from the back of the fire to allow more draw around the fire thinking this may help, however it does not appear to have done so. Now we are sitting here with the fire running but with no coals on it all seems well. Draw test ok Spillage test ok
> 
> ...


Don't muck about with it effendi - get back on to the geezer who installed it ASAP.


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## wiggytheone (Dec 3, 2012)

Thanks so far dont worry I am not mucking around with this I'm not going to put us at risk I know the danger's of gas,this is such a weird set of circumstances any information will be good as it might be the missing link. I have a good engineer on this and he is going through the problem bit by bit but as they say at Tesco every little helps.

We have already changed the regulator, however the engineer is already looking for a propane regulator that he can regulate. It may be that simple, it may be something else, so if you can guys keep the info coming.


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## virgil (May 3, 2012)

wiggytheone said:


> Thanks so far dont worry I am not mucking around with this I'm not going to put us at risk I know the danger's of gas,this is such a weird set of circumstances any information will be good as it might be the missing link. I have a good engineer on this and he is going through the problem bit by bit but as they say at Tesco every little helps.
> 
> We have already changed the regulator, however the engineer is already looking for a propane regulator that he can regulate. It may be that simple, it may be something else, so if you can guys keep the info coming.


I trust you have a carbon monoxide alarm wiggy, these Kidde jobbies are good because they have a digi readout showing ppm CO, unlike my Honeywell.

Kidde 900-0230 BSI Battery Premium Range Carbon Monoxide Alarm with Digital Display: Amazon.co.uk: DIY & Tools


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## whitenoiz (Sep 18, 2012)

Could be totally wrong here but is the gas bottle orange with a black stripe or just pain orange? Propane is relatively scarce here in Spain, Butane is the common or garden bottled gas... 
Repsol Propane is in an orange bottle with a black stripe, butane is in a plain orange bottle.... The burning characteristics are different and the regulators are different too...
Butane is affected by low temperatures so if the bottle is outside and the temp drops to below 0c the liquid gas cannot vapourise to the gaseous state required to operate appliances correctly.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

whitenoiz said:


> Could be totally wrong here but is the gas bottle orange with a black stripe or just pain orange? Propane is relatively scarce here in Spain, Butane is the common or garden bottled gas...
> Repsol Propane is in an orange bottle with a black stripe, butane is in a plain orange bottle.... The burning characteristics are different and the regulators are different too...
> Butane is affected by low temperatures so if the bottle is outside and the temp drops to below 0c the liquid gas cannot vapourise to the gaseous state required to operate appliances correctly.


Butane doesn't gas off properly below 5°. I used to use a multi-bottle installation in Wales and it had to be Propane to work in the winter.

If you have a flame-failure device on it, (a thermocouple that sits in the flame of a pilot light) you need to ensure that the jet is clear and the flame is hitting the thermocouple.


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## wiggytheone (Dec 3, 2012)

whitenoiz said:


> Could be totally wrong here but is the gas bottle orange with a black stripe or just pain orange? Propane is relatively scarce here in Spain, Butane is the common or garden bottled gas...
> Repsol Propane is in an orange bottle with a black stripe, butane is in a plain orange bottle.... The burning characteristics are different and the regulators are different too...
> Butane is affected by low temperatures so if the bottle is outside and the temp drops to below 0c the liquid gas cannot vapourise to the gaseous state required to operate appliances correctly.



Yep its propane and we have it coming out of our ears here.


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## wiggytheone (Dec 3, 2012)

virgil said:


> I trust you have a carbon monoxide alarm wiggy, these Kidde jobbies are good because they have a digi readout showing ppm CO, unlike my Honeywell.
> 
> Kidde 900-0230 BSI Battery Premium Range Carbon Monoxide Alarm with Digital Display: Amazon.co.uk: DIY & Tools


OH Yes


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## CMBROOKE24 (Nov 27, 2012)

For what it's worth, I brought my terrace / patio heater down for winter use. When I connected a Repsol bottle with Spanish regulator I noted that the power was much reduced when switched to maximum. It maybe an issue of the required mB pressure. One solution is to buy a rechargeable gas cylinder and and fill it up at the Repsol autogas point closest to you. That seems to work as like at home. You should be able to get one at a motorhome accessories shop. They are a bit expensive, but do pay back inthe long run.


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## wiggytheone (Dec 3, 2012)

CMBROOKE24 said:


> For what it's worth, I brought my terrace / patio heater down for winter use. When I connected a Repsol bottle with Spanish regulator I noted that the power was much reduced when switched to maximum. It maybe an issue of the required mB pressure. One solution is to buy a rechargeable gas cylinder and and fill it up at the Repsol autogas point closest to you. That seems to work as like at home. You should be able to get one at a motorhome accessories shop. They are a bit expensive, but do pay back inthe long run.



Cheers for that. The story so far. The gas engineer has today taken the fire completely to pieces blown through all pipe work. Fitted a new pilot injector unit (arrived today) We have changed the regulator but I have told him to buy a better regulator specifically for propane not the bog standard type for both butane and propane this should give us more pressure. We know that it is not the chimney or lack of oxygen in the room. He is going to contact Flavel as this is a real puzzle. Fire still popping.

After this the next step is to look at the pipework running into the gas fire. Im going to suggest that we run a new piece of pipe temporally to the gas fire and fit it to the gas bottle in the house to see if we still get the popping. If not then we will know that it was the installation pipework that is at fault without ripping it out of the wall and replacing it first

Roll on Summer


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

You said earlier that you have propane coming out of your ears. If that is true, there's your problem. It should be coming out of the gas jets on the fire. However, if one of you is game for a laugh, then put a match to your ears (only one of you) and you should be warm.


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## wiggytheone (Dec 3, 2012)

thrax said:


> You said earlier that you have propane coming out of your ears. If that is true, there's your problem. It should be coming out of the gas jets on the fire. However, if one of you is game for a laugh, then put a match to your ears (only one of you) and you should be warm.



Dont you ever wished you had not said something very good


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

It is an issue though and I know there was a post some time ago that covered this. As it keeps returning perhaps it could be added as a sticky, or maybe a new sticky called somethihng like common issues encountered in Spain???? My parents recently had this issue with their gas fire and it was the regulator but then there gas is butane not propane.


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## wiggytheone (Dec 3, 2012)

thrax said:


> It is an issue though and I know there was a post some time ago that covered this. As it keeps returning perhaps it could be added as a sticky, or maybe a new sticky called somethihng like common issues encountered in Spain???? My parents recently had this issue with their gas fire and it was the regulator but then there gas is butane not propane.



Yer possible the main thing though is as already posted GET AN EXPERT IN let them think it through. We know we will get there with it, but it is very frustrating and at the moment COLD


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## Cazzy (Nov 23, 2008)

According to my OH it is because the gas pressure is wrong. Spanish regulator pressure maybe different to English, you can adjust the gas flow on the fire. Is the fire designed to run on Butane or Propane?


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## wiggytheone (Dec 3, 2012)

Cazzy said:


> According to my OH it is because the gas pressure is wrong. Spanish regulator pressure maybe different to English, you can adjust the gas flow on the fire. Is the fire designed to run on Butane or Propane?


It is an English Flaval Rhapsody Caress LPG fire designed for Propane


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## Cazzy (Nov 23, 2008)

OH says put 2 cylinders on in tandem so that you get more volume of gas at the same pressure through the regulators, especially if you have a long pipe run. It will always use the left cylinder first. We had to do this to our AGA.


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## CMBROOKE24 (Nov 27, 2012)

Forgot to say, the patio heater is now back to full power using my motorhome bottle with uk quality regulator.


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## BGD (May 2, 2012)

whitenoiz said:


> Could be totally wrong here but is the gas bottle orange with a black stripe or just pain orange? Propane is relatively scarce here in Spain, Butane is the common or garden bottled gas...
> Repsol Propane is in an orange bottle with a black stripe, butane is in a plain orange bottle.... The burning characteristics are different and the regulators are different too...
> Butane is affected by low temperatures so if the bottle is outside and the temp drops to below 0c the liquid gas cannot vapourise to the gaseous state required to operate appliances correctly.




I think there's some confusion here.

The regulators are not different, and haven't been for many years now. They are the same whether using propane or butane: 30mbar.


Many years ago they were different: 28mbar versus 37mbar. 
But that's not been the case for kit all across most of Europe for a decade or more now....and even earlier kit runs happily on the newer, universal, 30mbar bottle-top regulators.

Also, butane ceases to gas-off at well above 0 degrees centigrade, as the process of gassing-off and coming through the regulator has a cooling effect (actually, technically a heat-exchanging effect) on the rest of the liquid gas in the bottle....often below about 5 or 6 degrees ambient temperature a butane bottle will reduce its gas-off rate, especially if you are drawing the gas from it rapidly to fuel (say) a powerful gas fire.
To avoid this potential problem in winter, can you move the gas bottle indoors?


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## wiggytheone (Dec 3, 2012)

The story so far

The fire is now running although not perfectly Dont panic its safe. The fire is running as mentioned but makes a sound around the pilot like someone blowing across a candle. The good thing is its not going out after five - ten mins. The engineer has written direct to Flavel as he is basically stumped he has never come across anything like this. 
As he was reassembling the fire after a complete strip down we had it running waiting to do its normal trick. Around the thermocouple is a small mesh to prevent lint and other nasties entering the air hole. Whilst the fire was running he accidentally touched this mesh with his screwdriver and the fire popped and spluttered more. When he removed the screwdriver it stopped. Therefore at present as mentioned with the mesh removed the fire runs, which begs the question to air gas flow. 
We wait and see what Flavel has to say

Weird


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## wiggytheone (Dec 3, 2012)

wiggytheone said:


> The story so far
> 
> The fire is now running although not perfectly Dont panic its safe. The fire is running as mentioned but makes a sound around the pilot like someone blowing across a candle. The good thing is its not going out after five - ten mins. The engineer has written direct to Flavel as he is basically stumped he has never come across anything like this.
> As he was reassembling the fire after a complete strip down we had it running waiting to do its normal trick. Around the thermocouple is a small mesh to prevent lint and other nasties entering the air hole. Whilst the fire was running he accidentally touched this mesh with his screwdriver and the fire popped and spluttered more. When he removed the screwdriver it stopped. Therefore at present as mentioned with the mesh removed the fire runs, which begs the question to air gas flow.
> ...


Ok problem solved it was too much air passing through the pilot assembly, I will be writing to the fire company to tell them that the fire is the problem not the gas or connections. Cheers for all the posts and have 
A Merry Christmas :clap2:


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