# Moving in February - apartment advice please



## stevesmithone (Jun 1, 2017)

Hey fellow forumites

I’ve taken a position at 20k per month and will be moving over in February. My office is in JLT and I’m going to rent a short term room there initially, but will be looking to buy an apartment ASAP. 

Will be looking at a one bedroom and have a budget of up to 1m, but would prefer to come in well below that. I’m single, so no family or schooling to worry about. I can have a car, or not have one, I’m not fussy. Happy to take the metro or taxis, as they are so cheap. Don’t really want to live in JLT as even a short 1km walk to work in August will see me become a grease spot. I’d like Chiller Free if possible too.

Areas I’ve looked at are Discovery Gardens, Sports City, IMPZ, JV Circle and JV Triangle. Any pros and cons of these areas that anyone is willing to share? Huge,y grateful for any help offered. Cheers!


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## Reddiva (Feb 24, 2016)

stevesmithone said:


> Hey fellow forumites
> 
> I’ve taken a position at 20k per month and will be moving over in February. My office is in JLT and I’m going to rent a short term room there initially, but will be looking to buy an apartment ASAP.
> 
> ...


Friend lives in Motor City and her partner has bought the apartment
Good Size, lots of construction around though and canal still does not have water in. Plenty of supermarkets and restaurants. Driving down Hessa Street to JTL in the morning can be bad during rush hour and the earlier you leave the better. Those apartments are not chiller free. JV Triangle nice area and they are building a mall. Think most of them are townhouses ( most are nice inside) traffic not too bad now they have opened up other routes to get out I messaged a friend that lived there and she said she pays chiller. I think most places pay chiller except Emaar properties. I cannot comment on the other areas as i dont know them that well


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## rsinner (Feb 3, 2009)

stevesmithone said:


> Hey fellow forumites
> 
> I’ve taken a position at 20k per month and will be moving over in February. My office is in JLT and I’m going to rent a short term room there initially, but will be looking to buy an apartment ASAP.
> 
> ...


Are you absolutely sure that you will not be fired during probation or within the first year? Have you worked with the company before? Do you know your colleagues? Do you know if your company will get affected by the ongoing economic environment? 

Then, are you buying on cash or mortgage? If it is mortgage, then just DON'T until you know the answers to all of the above and more. But if it is cash.....

Of all the places you listed above, none of them have a great location (which gets reflected int he price). With the amount of empty land around, I doubt that these areas will ever see a lot of capital appreciation (but I of course could be wrong). And if you lose your job etc., or things do not work out, you will need to rent these out. 

Discovery Gardens has a traffic issue, and is being used increasingly for staff housing. Sports City is decent, but check if it is leasehold or freehold. You will need a car for everything, but decent facilities around. 

If you are okay with Studios, Greens will have something under the budget. 

Actually I would recommend JLT the most, and you can always get a cab to get to work.


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## stevesmithone (Jun 1, 2017)

Reddiva said:


> Friend lives in Motor City and her partner has bought the apartment
> Good Size, lots of construction around though and canal still does not have water in. Plenty of supermarkets and restaurants. Driving down Hessa Street to JTL in the morning can be bad during rush hour and the earlier you leave the better. Those apartments are not chiller free. JV Triangle nice area and they are building a mall. Think most of them are townhouses ( most are nice inside) traffic not too bad now they have opened up other routes to get out I messaged a friend that lived there and she said she pays chiller. I think most places pay chiller except Emaar properties. I cannot comment on the other areas as i dont know them that well


Thanks Reddiva - appreciate your input.


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## stevesmithone (Jun 1, 2017)

rsinner said:


> Are you absolutely sure that you will not be fired during probation or within the first year? Have you worked with the company before? Do you know your colleagues? Do you know if your company will get affected by the ongoing economic environment?
> 
> Then, are you buying on cash or mortgage? If it is mortgage, then just DON'T until you know the answers to all of the above and more. But if it is cash.....
> 
> ...


Probably a good point re the job security. Just looking at rent at 6000aed per month or a mortgage for 2000aed per month. I’ll have around three years mortgage payments to hand just in case, but your point stands. 

Not particularly fussed about capital appreciation, see it more as a home than an investment, but as you’ve said, that’ll be why the prices are what they are.

Great knowledge on Disco Gardens and the traffic, staff housing points. I’ll certainly take that into consideration.


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## rsinner (Feb 3, 2009)

stevesmithone said:


> Probably a good point re the job security. Just looking at rent at 6000aed per month or a mortgage for 2000aed per month. I’ll have around three years mortgage payments to hand just in case, but your point stands.
> 
> Not particularly fussed about capital appreciation, see it more as a home than an investment, but as you’ve said, that’ll be why the prices are what they are.
> 
> Great knowledge on Disco Gardens and the traffic, staff housing points. I’ll certainly take that into consideration.


Of course it is your decision, but IMHO getting into debt in Dubai as soon as you land here is not a good idea. Buying an apartment costs 25% down payment + c. 7% in transaction expenses (so you need cash for at least 32% of the apartment price). Then they make you sign undated cheques etc. with the amount of mortgage. If you fall back on payments, banks will have the option of enforcing security (they will own the apartment - they do not like it as it is a hassle for them, they will need to manage it and then auction it off, and then they may not get the full recovery on the mortgage), or they will present the cheque for payment - of course it will bounce, then they can file a case against you, and prevent you from leaving the country. 

This is not the UK when it comes to debt, so you need to be careful, and think it through, and take time. The local newspapers are full of sob stories from expats like you and I, who got into debt, circumstances changed, and they are in a difficult spot. Similarly, there are expats who abuse the system, take on huge loans, and then run away with the money and/or just run away without repaying.

Your salary is not particularly high - just stay in a shared apartment with other flatmates (many of them in the Marina), and take your time to see how the job pans out and how your stay in Dubai turns out to be.


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## stevesmithone (Jun 1, 2017)

rsinner said:


> Of course it is your decision, but IMHO getting into debt in Dubai as soon as you land here is not a good idea. Buying an apartment costs 25% down payment + c. 7% in transaction expenses (so you need cash for at least 32% of the apartment price). Then they make you sign undated cheques etc. with the amount of mortgage. If you fall back on payments, banks will have the option of enforcing security (they will own the apartment - they do not like it as it is a hassle for them, they will need to manage it and then auction it off, and then they may not get the full recovery on the mortgage), or they will present the cheque for payment - of course it will bounce, then they can file a case against you, and prevent you from leaving the country.
> 
> This is not the UK when it comes to debt, so you need to be careful, and think it through, and take time. The local newspapers are full of sob stories from expats like you and I, who got into debt, circumstances changed, and they are in a difficult spot. Similarly, there are expats who abuse the system, take on huge loans, and then run away with the money and/or just run away without repaying.
> 
> Your salary is not particularly high - just stay in a shared apartment with other flatmates (many of them in the Marina), and take your time to see how the job pans out and how your stay in Dubai turns out to be.


Thanks for the honest feedback! 

I think I’d rather go full Alan Partridge in a Travel Tavern than share a flat. Maybe a studio rental to begin with isn’t the worst plan ever.


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## Reddiva (Feb 24, 2016)

stevesmithone said:


> Thanks for the honest feedback!
> 
> I think I’d rather go full Alan Partridge in a Travel Tavern than share a flat. Maybe a studio rental to begin with isn’t the worst plan ever.


Sadly no Linton travel taverns here but plenty of hotel apartments in JLT, The Greens ( Skai and Soluxe) and Barsha Heights AKA Tecom. All are in close proximity to JLT


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## stevesmithone (Jun 1, 2017)

Reddiva said:


> Sadly no Linton travel taverns here but plenty of hotel apartments in JLT, The Greens ( Skai and Soluxe) and Barsha Heights AKA Tecom. All are in close proximity to JLT


As long as I can bring my own plate for breakfast...


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## Reddiva (Feb 24, 2016)

stevesmithone said:


> As long as I can bring my own plate for breakfast...



A couple good sites to get price comparisons although they may also do deals directly

https://www.bayut.com/to-rent/hotel-apartments/uae/

https://www.propertyfinder.ae/?gcli...nTtsmy8E3xIn6K4JOOEaAuFQEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds


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## TallyHo (Aug 21, 2011)

Your salary is really not that high for a westerner in the UAE. We pay our British graduate architects and engineers in mid 20s and they're in their mid-late 20s. I have no idea what your background is (age and occupation) but 20k is, while a liveable income, not necessarily the kind of income you can expect to save substantially from without a lot of sacrifice. You'll probably spend 10k right off bat every month for a room in a flatshare, transportation, food and misc, and that's not a lavish lifestyle at all. The other 10k can be put aside into savings but what about travel? The miscellaneous expenditures that life keeps throwing at you? To make a long story short, on 20k you shouldn't look into buying an apartment in the UAE, at least right off bat. Spend a year or even two in Dubai before you make that kind of financial commitment. 

It's not just the mortgage payment but the service charges, which can be quite high. There is advantage to not being tied down to property in the UAE. Jobs are often temporary and ephemeral, redundancy commonplace, people easily tire of the place and want to leave. 

But all that aside, if you still think you need to buy something, then a budget of 1 million AED will get you a 1-bedroom in the Greens in one of the older low rises. That'd be my first choice because the location (perfect) and community owner (Emaar) means there will always be rental demand propping up a certain price level. Prices are dropping so you could probably snag a good deal.


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## stevesmithone (Jun 1, 2017)

TallyHo said:


> Your salary is really not that high for a westerner in the UAE. We pay our British graduate architects and engineers in mid 20s and they're in their mid-late 20s. I have no idea what your background is (age and occupation) but 20k is, while a liveable income, not necessarily the kind of income you can expect to save substantially from without a lot of sacrifice. You'll probably spend 10k right off bat every month for a room in a flatshare, transportation, food and misc, and that's not a lavish lifestyle at all. The other 10k can be put aside into savings but what about travel? The miscellaneous expenditures that life keeps throwing at you? To make a long story short, on 20k you shouldn't look into buying an apartment in the UAE, at least right off bat. Spend a year or even two in Dubai before you make that kind of financial commitment.
> 
> It's not just the mortgage payment but the service charges, which can be quite high. There is advantage to not being tied down to property in the UAE. Jobs are often temporary and ephemeral, redundancy commonplace, people easily tire of the place and want to leave.
> 
> But all that aside, if you still think you need to buy something, then a budget of 1 million AED will get you a 1-bedroom in the Greens in one of the older low rises. That'd be my first choice because the location (perfect) and community owner (Emaar) means there will always be rental demand propping up a certain price level. Prices are dropping so you could probably snag a good deal.


Appreciate that TallyHo. Fair point on my salary. I’m joining a relatively young, but high profile business and have chosen to take a lower salary with equity added. This allows the business to stay within salary levels for the entire team. It’s the job I’m coming for, not the salary.

I’m also financially independent, so can afford a risk or two at my stage of life (mid forties). I’m not a smoker, I’m teetotal and comfortable with my own company, so additional lifestyle expenses in the UK are minimal and that will continue to be the case. A wee visit to the cinema or the beach and I’m a happy fella. 

I have looked at The Greens, but I’ve not spent much time there when I’ve been over, so certainly worth investigating further.

Pretty much decided I was being daft to buy immediately though and will take the advice of those on here and others I’ve spoken to directly and lease to begin with. Can get myself a decent 1BR at JLT for 70k for the first year, so will end up doing that.


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## stevesmithone (Jun 1, 2017)

Working on my expenses spreadsheet, to get it just right, and was hoping for some help with my numbers please.

If I rent an apartment for say 60000aed per annum, I have to pay agency fees of around 5% of the total at the start of the contract. I have to pay housing fees of 5% every month, along with DEWA (any idea of DEWA approx?). DEWA also has a 2000aed deposit and I’ve a security deposit of around a month rental. Also, any feedback on Chiller fees for a 750sqft apartment? 

Huge apologies for the additional questions. Help is hugely appreciated.


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## Tackledummy (Jul 14, 2013)

stevesmithone said:


> Working on my expenses spreadsheet, to get it just right, and was hoping for some help with my numbers please.
> 
> If I rent an apartment for say 60000aed per annum, I have to pay agency fees of around 5% of the total at the start of the contract. I have to pay housing fees of 5% every month, along with DEWA (any idea of DEWA approx?). DEWA also has a 2000aed deposit and I’ve a security deposit of around a month rental. Also, any feedback on Chiller fees for a 750sqft apartment?
> 
> Huge apologies for the additional questions. Help is hugely appreciated.


For a similar sized 1 BR apartment in Sports City (edit - my initial tenancy was also for 60,000AED), I paid approx 400AED each per month for DEWA & Chiller (there were 2 of us, so imagine it would be cheaper for you as a single occupant). Surprisingly now we are in a 4 BR apartment (and now 3 ) our DEWA is only marginally higher (approx 550 AED) but our chiller has almost doubled (but still good value considering our apartment size is nearly triple (2400sqft) - the main thing for our DEWA is the fixed monthly payment!!


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## Reddiva (Feb 24, 2016)

stevesmithone said:


> Appreciate that TallyHo. Fair point on my salary. I’m joining a relatively young, but high profile business and have chosen to take a lower salary with equity added. This allows the business to stay within salary levels for the entire team. It’s the job I’m coming for, not the salary.
> 
> I’m also financially independent, so can afford a risk or two at my stage of life (mid forties). I’m not a smoker, I’m teetotal and comfortable with my own company, so additional lifestyle expenses in the UK are minimal and that will continue to be the case. A wee visit to the cinema or the beach and I’m a happy fella.
> 
> ...


I live in the Greens and have lived in the area ( Views first then Greens) for 5 years or so. If you get the right building ( Al Arta is a good one) then you will be okay Emaar properties are clean and maintained, they are getting old but i have had no major problems, pools are nice as are the small gyms and there is a good mix of middle aged singlies and couples. I like it there as it is low rise and there is zero construction plus it is Green! ( Lakes and trees) i am a similar age to you and have 4 friends of the same age who also live there. There are bargains to be had as the prices have dropped and we do not pay district cooling. My DEWA including housing is never more than 450 a month and the air con is on all day in the Summer. It is 10 mins from JLT, close to the Malls ( Mall of Emirates and Ibn Battuta) 20 mins from beach JBR and Kite Beach plus there are food outlets. supermarket. barbers, sports shop, ice cream shop, pharmacy. It is very dog friendly (which i like) and people do pass the time if day with each other


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## TallyHo (Aug 21, 2011)

Stevesmithone,

Be aware that not everything in Dubai is district cooling. Most of Dubai actually isn't and the AC is provided by the building's internal HVAC system rather than pumped from a separate facility. In non-district cooling buildings you only pay the DEWA and the AC is effectively free beyond a small amount of electricity usage connected to using the AC in your apartment but this is very small (in my 2-bedroom apartment the dewa bill in the winter is around 200 not including the housing tax, and in the summer it's 250 not including the housing tax). So the variation is very minimal. Single occupancy.

Parts of "new" Dubai is built on a district cooling scheme, with A/C pumped into the apartments from an A/C plant. JLT is district cooling. The Palm is district cooling. JBR in the Marina is district cooling. Motor City is district cooling. Discovery Gardens is district cooling. JVC is also district cooling, I believe. 

Most of the Marina is not district cooling. Greens/Views is not district cooling. Downtown is not district cooling except for 2-3 odd buildings. 

If you buy into a non-district cooling building in, say, the Greens, you do pay maintenance fees, and out of the maintenance fees are the costs for the building's HVAC system. 

So it does pay to be aware of these little differences. I've never lived in a district cooling scheme and I've easily saved thousands over the last 10 years by avoiding them.


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## stevesmithone (Jun 1, 2017)

Tackledummy said:


> For a similar sized 1 BR apartment in Sports City (edit - my initial tenancy was also for 60,000AED), I paid approx 400AED each per month for DEWA & Chiller (there were 2 of us, so imagine it would be cheaper for you as a single occupant). Surprisingly now we are in a 4 BR apartment (and now 3 ) our DEWA is only marginally higher (approx 550 AED) but our chiller has almost doubled (but still good value considering our apartment size is nearly triple (2400sqft) - the main thing for our DEWA is the fixed monthly payment!!


Huge help TackleDummy. I’ll probably need a good level of Chiller, being a fat lad from Scotland. I’ll need the cooling down! Great advice on your situation.


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## stevesmithone (Jun 1, 2017)

Reddiva said:


> I live in the Greens and have lived in the area ( Views first then Greens) for 5 years or so. If you get the right building ( Al Arta is a good one) then you will be okay Emaar properties are clean and maintained, they are getting old but i have had no major problems, pools are nice as are the small gyms and there is a good mix of middle aged singlies and couples. I like it there as it is low rise and there is zero construction plus it is Green! ( Lakes and trees) i am a similar age to you and have 4 friends of the same age who also live there. There are bargains to be had as the prices have dropped and we do not pay district cooling. My DEWA including housing is never more than 450 a month and the air con is on all day in the Summer. It is 10 mins from JLT, close to the Malls ( Mall of Emirates and Ibn Battuta) 20 mins from beach JBR and Kite Beach plus there are food outlets. supermarket. barbers, sports shop, ice cream shop, pharmacy. It is very dog friendly (which i like) and people do pass the time if day with each other


Defiantly an area I need to check out more Reddiva. Thanks for the advice!


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## stevesmithone (Jun 1, 2017)

TallyHo said:


> Stevesmithone,
> 
> Be aware that not everything in Dubai is district cooling. Most of Dubai actually isn't and the AC is provided by the building's internal HVAC system rather than pumped from a separate facility. In non-district cooling buildings you only pay the DEWA and the AC is effectively free beyond a small amount of electricity usage connected to using the AC in your apartment but this is very small (in my 2-bedroom apartment the dewa bill in the winter is around 200 not including the housing tax, and in the summer it's 250 not including the housing tax). So the variation is very minimal. Single occupancy.
> 
> ...


Very comprehensive TallyHo. Gives me plenty of food for thought. Really do appreciate you continuing to help me out.


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## michellecg (Oct 8, 2017)

TallyHo said:


> Stevesmithone,
> In non-district cooling buildings you only pay the DEWA and the AC is effectively free beyond a small amount of electricity usage connected to using the AC in your apartment ...


Hi TallyHo, I have read the entire thread on renting in Dubai and set about engaging with a agent about renting a flat in a non-cooling district building in the Marina. In the initial meeting the agent mentioned that AC is charged at Dhr7+ per sqft and for the apartment that amounted to Dhr 15k+ per year, which would be additional to the already high end of the scale rent. Counter offers slightly below the stated rent (with the expressed view that AC is included) have been rejected with no counter offer from the landlord via the agent. I'm at a loss. Negotiation on rent seems a tiring process but I'm curious about the AC issue. Is the cost in addition to the rent not standard practise for the Marina?


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## Reddiva (Feb 24, 2016)

michellecg said:


> Hi TallyHo, I have read the entire thread on renting in Dubai and set about engaging with a agent about renting a flat in a non-cooling district building in the Marina. In the initial meeting the agent mentioned that AC is charged at Dhr7+ per sqft and for the apartment that amounted to Dhr 15k+ per year, which would be additional to the already high end of the scale rent. Counter offers slightly below the stated rent (with the expressed view that AC is included) have been rejected with no counter offer from the landlord via the agent. I'm at a loss. Negotiation on rent seems a tiring process but I'm curious about the AC issue. Is the cost in addition to the rent not standard practise for the Marina?


Is the apartment 1 or 2 bed? If a 1 bed 15k sounds very high
The a/c bill comes directly from DEWA so i doubt the Landlord will negotiate on this at all. With regards to rents it is all about finding the right one as many will leave a property empty for months rather than drop the rent!!! many estate agents are also unhelpful and are only interested in the cheques and then poof they are nowhere to be seen


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## michellecg (Oct 8, 2017)

Reddiva said:


> Is the apartment 1 or 2 bed? If a 1 bed 15k sounds very high
> The a/c bill comes directly from DEWA so i doubt the Landlord will negotiate on this at all. With regards to rents it is all about finding the right one as many will leave a property empty for months rather than drop the rent!!! many estate agents are also unhelpful and are only interested in the cheques and then poof they are nowhere to be seen


its a 4 bed apartment over 2500 sqft, but the AC is centralised for the building and I understood in reading Tallyho's comment and others that its a cost not paid by the tenant but by the landlord. Yes perhaps calculated into the rent but not at as separate charge?

Seems like the owner is prepared to let it stay empty than budge on the rent. Defies logic in my opinion.


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## UKMS (Jan 9, 2017)

michellecg said:


> Seems like the owner is prepared to let it stay empty than budge on the rent. Defies logic in my opinion.


Not unusual here ...... I viewed a villa in January, landlord wouldn’t budge on price and it’s still empty now !


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## TallyHo (Aug 21, 2011)

michellecg said:


> its a 4 bed apartment over 2500 sqft, but the AC is centralised for the building and I understood in reading Tallyho's comment and others that its a cost not paid by the tenant but by the landlord. Yes perhaps calculated into the rent but not at as separate charge?
> 
> Seems like the owner is prepared to let it stay empty than budge on the rent. Defies logic in my opinion.


Hi Michelle,

What your landlord is doing is trying to get you to pay part, if not all, of his service charges/maintenance fees on top of the regular rent. This is actually illegal. Landlords are not to charge the tenants the maintenance fees separate from the rent. The AC charges the agent told you is not based on actual consumption but the apartment's square footage, and that implies it's part of the maintenance fees calculations. 

You may ask why the landlord is doing this if it's illegal, well, Dubai operates on a model that it's only illegal if it's enforced, in other words, you would have to report the landlord to the real estate committee that oversees these issues. Because of the hugely transient nature of the city with hundreds of thousands of expats arriving and leaving every year, most people arrive with no understanding of the rental regulations and many landlords take advantage of this to play games and trick expats.

My advice is to walk away and find another apartment. It may sound frustrating but in the long run it's better to do so. You will find something, people always do. Why I wouldn't bother telling the agent your offer is the rent but no a/c charges is because a landlord who is trying to play these games is not a landlord I want to have.


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## rsinner (Feb 3, 2009)

michellecg said:


> its a 4 bed apartment over 2500 sqft, but the AC is centralised for the building and I understood in reading Tallyho's comment and others that its a cost not paid by the tenant but by the landlord. Yes perhaps calculated into the rent but not at as separate charge?
> 
> Seems like the owner is prepared to let it stay empty than budge on the rent. Defies logic in my opinion.


It is a renters' market, and just walk away if you think they are overcharging. If the rent + service charge (which is very unusual) is something that you are willing to pay, it is a different story.


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## michellecg (Oct 8, 2017)

rsinner said:


> It is a renters' market, and just walk away if you think they are overcharging. If the rent + service charge (which is very unusual) is something that you are willing to pay, it is a different story.


I've already mentally walked away. My husband believes the agent might come back after realising we will not go higher. But we have a plan B, C and D so no need to continue this weird game. The Marina is full of vacant flats and so many buildings soon to be ready, I too believe, it is a tenant market.


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## michellecg (Oct 8, 2017)

TallyHo said:


> Hi Michelle,
> My advice is to walk away and find another apartment. It may sound frustrating but in the long run it's better to do so. You will find something, people always do. Why I wouldn't bother telling the agent your offer is the rent but no a/c charges is because a landlord who is trying to play these games is not a landlord I want to have.


Thank you TallyHo, for your clear and concise answer. You are invaluable to this forum, helping bring some sanity to this craziness, one fresh-faced expat at a time


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