# Tax issues: dual UK/US relocating back to UK



## pjdy70 (May 14, 2017)

Hi there,
I’m new to the forum. We are currently in provisional planning stages of moving back to the UK. We have resided in USA for 12 years where we have a home in joint names. In the UK we have two properties, each held in separate names. We are both dual UK/US citizens.

Potentially, we are looking at myself/kids going back ahead of my husband and him relocating some time later. If anyone has any experiences of these initial, potential tax scenarios, which I think may impact how we have to strategise, would love to hear your input!

•	US home: could the sale of this be liable to UK tax? (CGT, as I own a property I rent out). I’m wondering if I left ahead of my husband, and we didn’t sell the US home at that time, I am now on ‘UK soil’ and my name is on the house in the US…

•	UK homes: likely we would live in one and utilize the rental income off the other. Initially, I wouldn’t think I would be working in the UK. I know US taxation has a clause of ‘unearned’ income being taxed. Would they tax the rental income? It has always been declared on our returns, but just curious if the situation changes, if I’m in the UK, and my husband, the US.

•	Moving funds: if we want to move some of our funds that we originally brought out with us from the UK, back to the UK, is it taxable, if we move it whilst we are both still ‘non-residents’?

•	If we want to move an amount each month of my husband’s US $ salary to the UK, what does the tax look like, on this, with the US/UK taxation treaty. As he will have already been taxed on it in the US, would this avoid UK tax? Don’t know that we would do this, but just need to get an idea on all the potential ‘tax traps’ so we can start figuring out this whole puzzle!

Thanks for listening!


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

OK, if you both have dual US/UK citizenship, your obligation for filing and paying US taxes remains absolutely the same no matter where either or both of you is living. (Ah, the "joys" of US citizenship!) In some sense, that does simplify at least that side of things.



> •	US home: could the sale of this be liable to UK tax? (CGT, as I own a property I rent out). I’m wondering if I left ahead of my husband, and we didn’t sell the US home at that time, I am now on ‘UK soil’ and my name is on the house in the US…


I'm not familiar enough with UK taxes. With luck someone who is will stop by and help.


> •	UK homes: likely we would live in one and utilize the rental income off the other. Initially, I wouldn’t think I would be working in the UK. I know US taxation has a clause of ‘unearned’ income being taxed. Would they tax the rental income? It has always been declared on our returns, but just curious if the situation changes, if I’m in the UK, and my husband, the US.


No, the US doesn't tax only "unearned" income when you live overseas. You're allowed an "exclusion" for up to about $100K of earned income - but technically, all your worldwide income still has to be declared and is potentially subject to US taxes. So yes, you would continue to declare rental income from your UK properties - but then you would use the Foreign Tax Credit to offset any US tax liability with UK income taxes paid.


> •	Moving funds: if we want to move some of our funds that we originally brought out with us from the UK, back to the UK, is it taxable, if we move it whilst we are both still ‘non-residents’?


Transfer of capital doesn't generate income and so is not taxable. By "transfer of capital" I mean transferring a balance sitting in a bank account. The only taxable part of a bank account is any interest you get paid while the money is sitting there. To transfer more than $10,000 you'll need to give a source and a reason for the transfer - but generally speaking, that's part of the bank transfer process anyhow and they do all the paperwork and reporting for you.


> •	If we want to move an amount each month of my husband’s US $ salary to the UK, what does the tax look like, on this, with the US/UK taxation treaty. As he will have already been taxed on it in the US, would this avoid UK tax? Don’t know that we would do this, but just need to get an idea on all the potential ‘tax traps’ so we can start figuring out this whole puzzle!


Again, this winds up being a transfer of capital. To the extent that the UK requires you to report "worldwide income" you may have to report your husband's US income - but that will also depend on how the UK determines his residence for tax purposes. If they will recognize you as being UK resident while he is not, then you just report "your" income until he moves to join you. 

But let's hope someone a bit more familiar with UK tax rules wanders by.
Cheers,
Bev


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## pjdy70 (May 14, 2017)

Thanks so much for your insights! 

Yup, I agree, if there is a UK tax 'guru' lurking in the wings that would be fantastic!


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## celticweb (Mar 26, 2016)

Hi pjdy70

About your question for UK homes

I don’t know how it works when one US/UK citizen spouse is resident in the US and one resident in the UK for a jointly owned property but I can answer the question from the point of view when you are both resident in the UK for UK based rental property.

I have rental properties here in the UK. I was born a dual UK/USA citizen UK rental income does need to be declared and reported yearly on a US tax return, remember as Bev mentioned US tax is on worldwide income however you get a credit for the UK tax you paid. 

Rental income doesn't qualify under the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion because as you mentioned, it's unearned income. I file a UK self assessment every year for the rental and pay UK tax and I have never had to pay US tax, I have always winded up paying far more in UK tax. 

I renounced US citizenship now and by the time I renounced I had around 9000 foreign tax credits in the passive category from the rental from 5 years filing.

I am no tax expert but this is just my first hand experience with UK rentals when I was a dual citizen.


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## celticweb (Mar 26, 2016)

Something else just came to mind though, i have wages so some of my UK rental income is being subjected to higher rates of UK tax because it's on top of my wages and a portion is going into the higher bracket. I don't know how it would work in theory if you only had rental income and was living off that because you might not pay as much UK tax on the rental and you might wind up owing some US tax in that instance or be breaking even. You always wind up paying the highest tax rate difference. Something to bear in mind and research further.


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## pjdy70 (May 14, 2017)

Thanks so much for your insights on UK property, most appreciated.

Interesting to hear that you gave up US citizenship. That is something in the back of my mind if they are going to start taking tax off me, if I am below what are deemed UK tax thresholds.... I'm sure it's a painful process, but maybe it's a trade for many years less pain in the future!!!






celticweb said:


> Something else just came to mind though, i have wages so some of my UK rental income is being subjected to higher rates of UK tax because it's on top of my wages and a portion is going into the higher bracket. I don't know how it would work in theory if you only had rental income and was living off that because you might not pay as much UK tax on the rental and you might wind up owing some US tax in that instance or be breaking even. You always wind up paying the highest tax rate difference. Something to bear in mind and research further.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

pjdy70 said:


> Thanks so much for your insights on UK property, most appreciated.
> 
> Interesting to hear that you gave up US citizenship. That is something in the back of my mind if they are going to start taking tax off me, if I am below what are deemed UK tax thresholds.... I'm sure it's a painful process, but maybe it's a trade for many years less pain in the future!!!


Just be aware that renunciation costs $2350 at the moment and subjects you to certain "inconveniences" such as an "exit tax" and a flat tax rate of 30% on most US sources of income (thinking primarily US social security here). Not a deal breaker, but something to keep in mind when weighing options.
Cheers,
Bev


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## celticweb (Mar 26, 2016)

pjdy70 said:


> Thanks so much for your insights on UK property, most appreciated.
> 
> Interesting to hear that you gave up US citizenship. That is something in the back of my mind if they are going to start taking tax off me, if I am below what are deemed UK tax thresholds.... I'm sure it's a painful process, but maybe it's a trade for many years less pain in the future!!!



It wasn't so hard for me to renounce because I was an accidental American, born to British parents while they were working in the US and left at an early age. 

Still it wasn't a decision that I took lightly. But the tipping point for me was a directorship and part owner of a newly formed UK company last year and my other shareholders were not US citizens and did not want any US citizen involved because of Fatca reporting. Plus the onerous reporting. You will find that some financial services are off limits like Isa. and the different tax years and accountancy costs. You would have pretty much not have been exposed to Fatca's problems while living the USA.

The renunciation fee was no hardship for me. My biggest concern was the exit tax. and I was born a dual and living in the country of my other citizenship so I escaped that thankfully so you have to weight that up in the equation two but again if there are two of you, the exemption threshold gets doubled.

And back to the subject of this thread, re tax on UK rental, if you have children there are child credits i believe that you still get refunds for, again not sure how it works when one spouse is here and one there.


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## celticweb (Mar 26, 2016)

also something else you came to mind when you do start working, there is something in the self assessment form where they ask if you want them to try to take more tax from your paye code if you aren't paying enough each year. and because of things like rental you will have more to pay most likely. i always did. but you want to make sure you tick that box no for that because you want a tax bill every year so know exactly how much UK tax you paid on the rental income for the purposed of using the foreign credit.


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## JustLurking (Mar 25, 2015)

Bevdeforges said:


> Just be aware that renunciation costs $2350 at the moment and subjects you to certain "inconveniences" such as an "exit tax" and a flat tax rate of 30% on most US sources of income (thinking primarily US social security here).


The $2,350 renunciation fee is non-negotiable, but it is worth noting that this is up from $450 in 2015, itself up from $0 in 2010, so you can see the trajectory there. Renunciation numbers increased dramatically when FATCA passed in 2010 (draw your own conclusions from that!).

The "exit tax" kicks in only over certain asset and income limits. Typically, most are caught if assets exceed $2mm (not indexed for inflation). If you are under than but think you might pass it in future -- perhaps expecting a sizeable inheritance, or living in a house-price-bubble home -- it may make sense to think about renouncing sooner, rather than later.

The 30% flat US tax rate regularly cited by Bev applies only to countries lacking a tax treaty with the US. For treaty countries, the applicable US tax rate on annuities and pensions -- including US social security -- is typically 0%. The UK has a treaty with the US. For UK residents the US tax rate is 0% on interest and pensions, and 15% on dividends. All these are of course taxable to the UK.


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## Moulard (Feb 3, 2017)

If you are considering expatriating, take a careful look at Form 8854 and its instructions. If you have choice over when and how you choose to expatriate, you have the option to delay and do a bit of tax planning and/or preparation to ensure you are not a covered expatriate.

TL: DR you want to do what ever you can to avoid being a covered expatriate.


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## pjdy70 (May 14, 2017)

Thanks Bev, that's interesting information. I worked for a few years part time, but I wholly look after the kids as my husband travels a lot. So, I think, technically, I have no US income if I were to renounce. Or, do they 'get you' if your taxes are filed jointly? He's not thinking of renouncing, so as far as $ go, to them, I would be fairly 'insignificant' I would think? Thus, if I'm insignificant currently, then that seems a better time to contemplate it, rather than leave it until I am back working and then they get a lot more from me!! I might have to look into this in more depth also.....





Bevdeforges said:


> Just be aware that renunciation costs $2350 at the moment and subjects you to certain "inconveniences" such as an "exit tax" and a flat tax rate of 30% on most US sources of income (thinking primarily US social security here). Not a deal breaker, but something to keep in mind when weighing options.
> Cheers,
> Bev


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

JustLurking said:


> The 30% flat US tax rate regularly cited by Bev applies only to countries lacking a tax treaty with the US. For treaty countries, the applicable US tax rate on annuities and pensions -- including US social security -- is typically 0%. The UK has a treaty with the US. For UK residents the US tax rate is 0% on interest and pensions, and 15% on dividends. All these are of course taxable to the UK.


I think you're referring to the "pecularity" of the US-UK tax treaty. Other tax treaties work differently and you may very well get hit with the 30% non-resident tax for US social security. (Applies, certainly, to France - where there is a tax treaty, but with different conditions.)

In any event, those with 10 years of US SS contributions are vested in the US program and if one member of the couple is a US citizen and the other isn't there, the non-US partner may still qualify for a US pension based on the US spouse's pension. The point, in any event, is to consider your options and potential "inconveniences" carefully before taking a big decision like renunciation.


> Thanks Bev, that's interesting information. I worked for a few years part time, but I wholly look after the kids as my husband travels a lot. So, I think, technically, I have no US income if I were to renounce. Or, do they 'get you' if your taxes are filed jointly? He's not thinking of renouncing, so as far as $ go, to them, I would be fairly 'insignificant' I would think? Thus, if I'm insignificant currently, then that seems a better time to contemplate it, rather than leave it until I am back working and then they get a lot more from me!! I might have to look into this in more depth also.....


You get into somewhat more complicated territory if one of you renounces while the other doesn't. You can still file jointly - but if you do, the non-USC partner has to declare and be taxed as through they had never renounced, so there's $2350 gone to waste. There is also a "spouse pension" available from US Social Security - basically one-half the amount of the primary breadwinner's pension is paid to the spouse in their own name. 

There is also a little kicker in the law that says that someone who has renounced "may" be denied a visa to enter the US "just cause." They don't seem to invoke this much these days, but the way things are going back there, you never know. 

I'm not trying to talk you out of renouncing. For some people it's a really good idea. Just be very sure you investigate all the costs and "inconveniences" before you go through with it, because it's pretty much a one-way street.

Lots to think about, I know. But probably more important to get your move organized first. There's no particular rush to deciding about renouncing.
Cheers,
Bev


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## JustLurking (Mar 25, 2015)

Bevdeforges said:


> I think you're referring to the "pecularity" of the US-UK tax treaty. Other tax treaties work differently and you may very well get hit with the 30% non-resident tax for US social security. (Applies, certainly, to France - where there is a tax treaty, but with different conditions.)


The IRS tax rates table referred to earlier lists rates for 58 treaty countries, with 50 of them having a 0% US tax rate on pensions and annuities.

France is the "peculiarity" here then, rather than the UK. Only Denmark, the Philippines, Poland and the Commonwealth of Independent States have treaties and yet share that 30% US tax rate with France. Canada, Indonesia and South Africa have a reduced 15% US tax rate.


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## pjdy70 (May 14, 2017)

Thanks all for all these 'new' insights, all. 

I knew there were lots of things to look into as we need to 'weigh up' everything well ahead of the move. I hadn't thought about US social security as I had presumed with very few years 'in' I would get nothing, and I had a lot more years paid 'in,' in the UK. With the possible 'spouse' clause, that is another on the 'to do' list of investigations.

So glad I found this site !


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## JustLurking (Mar 25, 2015)

pjdy70 said:


> I hadn't thought about US social security as I had presumed with very few years 'in' I would get nothing, and I had a lot more years paid 'in,' in the UK.


Maybe take some time to peruse the US/UK Social Security Totalization Agreement. For example:


> You may have some Social Security credits in both the United States and the United Kingdom but not enough to be eligible in one country or the other. The agreement makes it easier to qualify for benefits by letting you add together your Social Security credits in both countries.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

JustLurking said:


> The IRS tax rates table referred to earlier lists rates for 58 treaty countries, with 50 of them having a 0% US tax rate on pensions and annuities.
> 
> France is the "peculiarity" here then, rather than the UK. Only Denmark, the Philippines, Poland and the Commonwealth of Independent States have treaties and yet share that 30% US tax rate with France. Canada, Indonesia and South Africa have a reduced 15% US tax rate.


Checking the footnotes to that table, I find this: 


> In most cases, this rate applies only to pensions *not paid by a government.* See specific treaty rules for government pensions.


This table seems to apply to pensions paid to those in the US, not to non-resident tax rates for those being paid a US source pension - particularly a US Social Security pension. The tax treaties reference US Social Security and certain US deferred tax pension savings plans (IRA, 401K, etc.) as being equivalent to government paid pensions.

In any event, this is precisely the sort of thing you can't decide on "on the fly" as it were. There are also factors related to whether just one or both of the partners are considering renunciation, how long each partner has contributed to US Social Security, etc. etc. If one partner is not working (or not working much), there may be considerations such as the joint filing advantages vs. having one partner filing "married, filing separately." 

It's just something to take slowly at this point.
Cheers,
Bev


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## pjdy70 (May 14, 2017)

Great link, thanks for sharing, "Justlurking". I will investigate.


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## JustLurking (Mar 25, 2015)

Bevdeforges said:


> This table seems to apply to pensions paid to those in the US, not to non-resident tax rates for those being paid a US source pension - particularly a US Social Security pension. The tax treaties reference US Social Security and certain US deferred tax pension savings plans (IRA, 401K, etc.) as being equivalent to government paid pensions.


Now you've entirely lost me, Bev.

The tax treaty rates in the table are for payments _from_ US pension or other retirement schemes _to_ non-US persons (NRAs), and not the other way around as you suggest. It is what the payer uses, in conjunction with information supplied by the recipient on a form W-8BEN, to determine how much, if anything, to withhold from a payment and send to the IRS.

From IRS pub 515 on tax withholding (italics are mine):


> *Pensions and annuities*. In most cases, you must withhold tax on the gross amount of pensions and annuities that you pay that are from sources within the United States. ... However, _most tax treaties provide that private pensions and annuities are exempt from chapter 3 withholding_.


I'm also unsure as to how you conclude that treaties consider IRAs and 401ks as potentially "equivalent to government paid pensions". They are not at all the same thing.


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## celticweb (Mar 26, 2016)

Many have mentioned things you need to consider before renouncing but from my point of view, renouncing and the process is far easier than all the myriad of US tax rules and falling foul of obscure rules one didn't even know about. and let's not forget about the fbar and all the duplicate reporting now on the Fatca form, the son of fbar, I forget what it's number is and being discriminated against. I shudder at the thought. filing out a few forms and renouncing is easy compared to all this. of course there could also be change in the future but my realist outlook always told me to not rely on that.

But it does boil down to your ties, if you have investments, property, relatives in the US, maybe might go back and work there again, are your kids dual citizens too? will they decide to settle there some day? what about parents, where are they based? Would you want the freedom to care for elderly parents someday in the US? the only real advantage to US citizenship in today's world is the absolute right of entry and return. 

I don't know if you were born a dual or not but yes consider the implications of the exit tax. Had I not been born a dual, that would have caused me a real headache and I would have had to plan. If you renounce together with your spouse, your threshold will be double. if one renounces and one doesn't it's a huge problem going forward with inheriting from each other without some complicated trust issue. it's best either both are US citizens or both not US citizens for inheritance purposes. or afterwards the foreign principle residence is kept in the name of the one who did renounce.

Lots to consider and weight up for sure


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## JustLurking (Mar 25, 2015)

...and I finally found the SSA's documentation on tax withholding for NRAs. They hid it well. Confirms no SSA withholding for the UK.

Sorry for going on. I'll shut up now.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

JustLurking said:


> Now you've entirely lost me, Bev.
> 
> The tax treaty rates in the table are for payments _from_ US pension or other retirement schemes _to_ non-US persons (NRAs), and not the other way around as you suggest. It is what the payer uses, in conjunction with information supplied by the recipient on a form W-8BEN, to determine how much, if anything, to withhold from a payment and send to the IRS.
> 
> ...


I don't want to get into a knock down drag out over the details - which may or may not affect the OP here. It's just a caveat in general to be aware of the taxation of pensions - private and public. We were talking about US Social Security here - which is a public pension (i.e. because it is a US government program). Section 18 of the US-France tax treaty lists IRAs and 401Ks as being considered for tax purposes as being part of the US government (i.e. public) pension system. Yes, it may be different in other treaties - but it is one of those matters to take into consideration before taking any irreversible decisions.

And, as celticweb has explained, the decision to renounce or not has to be taken with an eye toward other factors than just the taxes. Like they taught us in accounting school, you should never make a decision based solely on the tax effects. You take a decision based on the sum total of all aspects of the decision.
Cheers,
Bev


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## iota2014 (Jul 30, 2015)

Although taxation of SSA pensions varies from country to country, 0% prevails in Canada, the UK (minus CDOT) and Israel - three countries with comparatively high numbers of USPs. Maybe worth a sticky? since the question often arises and often seems to lead to the same discussions/arguments.

It would be a pity for anyone contemplating renunciation to be deterred, and thus trapped in the lifelong US irrational tax-and-form bureaucracy, by unwarranted fear of a 30% withholding from their SSA pension.


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## pjdy70 (May 14, 2017)

Thanks for sharing your experiences of renouncing. It's definitely balancing all the 'for/against' on the 'scales' to make the judgement. I am a naturalized US citizen, ALL my family are in the UK, kids are dual. Food for thought......

The whole FATCA thing worries me as I am sure if I want to open different accounts when I move back to the UK this will stop me from doing so. I kept all my existing accounts when I left the UK (thank goodness), so that just ticks along. 



celticweb said:


> Many have mentioned things you need to consider before renouncing but from my point of view, renouncing and the process is far easier than all the myriad of US tax rules and falling foul of obscure rules one didn't even know about. and let's not forget about the fbar and all the duplicate reporting now on the Fatca form, the son of fbar, I forget what it's number is and being discriminated against. I shudder at the thought. filing out a few forms and renouncing is easy compared to all this. of course there could also be change in the future but my realist outlook always told me to not rely on that.
> 
> But it does boil down to your ties, if you have investments, property, relatives in the US, maybe might go back and work there again, are your kids dual citizens too? will they decide to settle there some day? what about parents, where are they based? Would you want the freedom to care for elderly parents someday in the US? the only real advantage to US citizenship in today's world is the absolute right of entry and return.
> 
> ...


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

The other "big" thing to consider is your husband's status. Are you both naturalized citizens? Or is he native born? There are some complications you won't be able to avoid if only you renounce and he doesn't. (Inheritance between spouses, joint ownership of bank accounts or investments, etc.)

Take it slow and easy before making any big decision. Making a big international move is enough of a headache, never mind your split schedules for making the move. Give yourselves a chance to get settled back in the UK and see how things go. That may give you some further ideas about the "need" or "desirability" of one or both of you renouncing. And you may find various advantages to your current situation. 

I'm thinking here primarily about your existing bank accounts. Once you're a customer of a given bank, you can probably open additional accounts with the same bank, no questions asked. (Since they'll already have your W-9 on file.) Just don't be in a hurry - this is definitely a long-term decision.
Cheers,
Bev


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## iota2014 (Jul 30, 2015)

pjdy70 said:


> Thanks for sharing your experiences of renouncing. It's definitely balancing all the 'for/against' on the 'scales' to make the judgement. I am a naturalized US citizen, ALL my family are in the UK, kids are dual. Food for thought......
> 
> The whole FATCA thing worries me as I am sure if I want to open different accounts when I move back to the UK this will stop me from doing so. I kept all my existing accounts when I left the UK (thank goodness), so that just ticks along.


Presumably your existing accounts don't have US indicia? Mine didn't, and I could have rubbed along without renouncing, but I didn't want to. And soon the Common Reporting Standard came into force, which means everyone gets quizzed about tax-residency, so I'm glad I moved fast to renounce as soon as I learned about CBT/FATCA. But it depends on individual circumstances. At least you have the advantage of knowing about CBT, so you presumably know to avoid PFICs - stocks-and-shares ISAs for instance. 

My pre-existing banks have never yet asked me about US citizenship.


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## celticweb (Mar 26, 2016)

Also you say you are a naturalized citizen which means you probably have a UK birth place so you can come here and just use your UK passport to open accounts and try to conduct your affairs only as a UK citizen. it can buy you time while you weight things up. 

I did get asked on an existing account with a Fatca letter. that's what started this whole mess for me and made me aware of the whole issue. I haven't found the reason why at this particular bank I was asked except that we had some accounts that were over the Fatca reporting threshold. . My spouse is a non US citizen with no ties whatsoever to the USA. He was effected by Fatca and Fbar reporting through me and this put a lot of strain on our relationship.

In your case, you are both citizens and will be on equal footing to make decisions.

Speaking if Isas, while trying to use this years new Isa allowance, I was asked during the online process if I was a US person and had the answer still been yes, i would have been prohibited from investing. at least not in the place that I now have my Isas.


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## iota2014 (Jul 30, 2015)

celticweb said:


> Speaking if Isas, while trying to use this years new Isa allowance, I was asked during the online process if I was a US person and had the answer still been yes, i would have been prohibited from investing. at least not in the place that I now have my Isas.


Just as well though, isn't it? So many US/UK duals had already invested their retirement savings, or large parts, in ISAs. Disaster, from what I hear - I didn't have that particular problem.


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## celticweb (Mar 26, 2016)

iota2014 said:


> Just as well though, isn't it? So many US/UK duals had already invested their retirement savings, or large parts, in ISAs. Disaster, from what I hear - I didn't have that particular problem.


Yes for sure just as well. I don't want to be prohibited from this at all.

Just before you go to the payment page to purchase stock and share Isas, it asks you to confirm that you are not a US Citizen or resident in the US or have an obligation to pay tax on worldwide income. there is a link on the word US citizen and if you click that link it pops up to another page titled "US Person" with the first sentence stating These products and services are not being offered to US persons and then goes on to explain what a US person is 

It starts by saying while this is not an exhaustive list, it gives the definition of a US person in about 4 or 5 bullet points. This is definitely a new thing since Fatca.


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## iota2014 (Jul 30, 2015)

It's perhaps not just because of fear of the 30% withholding penalties though. If I'm not mistaken, they have a legal duty under UK law not to facilitate ill-advised investments. Which a stocks/shares ISA would definitely be, for a USP.

But fear of the US probably does loom larger in their perspective.

So it goes. The US is in a terrible crazy state, and for the first time in my life I'm beginning to feel sorry for it (sorry for the country - was always sorry for the people).


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## celticweb (Mar 26, 2016)

You're probably right that some part is to do with not selling unsuitable investments however for years and years they were sold to any UK resident even dual UK/US. This is why so many of us remained ignorant.

I went back and looked at the message again and I do think some part is to do with Fatca. The last paragraph says this and I think this is directly related to Fatca. I have invested here every year (except last year while dealing with the mess) and this is the first time I have seen the notice while purchasing. 

"We may sell your Investments and close your account if you are or become a US person and we may also inform the relevant authorities about your holdings and transactions."


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## iota2014 (Jul 30, 2015)

Yes indeed the exclusion is there because of FATCA, and is there to protect the bank. But it also saves duals from unknowingly pouring their savings into a product the US has turned into a trap with their name on.


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