# Crime increase in Spain



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Not a nice topic, but it has risen its ugly head on several threads lately so maybe it's time to bring it into the open.

Some people have said that they never lock their doors. It's lovely to feel so safe, like going back to a more innocent age. I live in a small pueblo where everybody knows each other, and I thought it was pretty well crime-free (though I would never leave the door unlocked, I'm not that trusting!)

But I fear that with the recession things are changing. Some recent incidents where I live have brought this home to me with a bump.

One of my neighbours always leaves his front door open. The other day while he was upstairs, someone came in and nicked the ink cartridges from his printer. Another neighbour has had his flowerpots and ornamental ducks stolen from his front porch. Both of them live in the middle of the village, surrounded by other houses.

A 48-year-old local man was arrested last week for stealing the candle money from the church. Now that smacks of desperation. This is a deeply religious community.

But the worst thing by far, and I've felt so bad about it that I haven't mentioned it before, was an 80-year-old man who was hit over the head with a wooden bar and bled to death on the pavement. This was at 7 o'clock on a Sunday morning. The police arrested a 23-year-old, off his head on crack. He was born and raised in the village. Some other younger kids, also local and also drugged up to the eyeballs, were seen filming the incident on their phones.

Detenido un joven por la muerte del anciano en Alcalá de los...


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

My daughter told me only yesterday that a friend of ours has been broken into twice in the last 5 days, the house is isolated so someone is watching.


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## djfwells (Sep 28, 2009)

About 18 months ago I was out in the Town when a guy "selling rugs" came to my House Finca in the campo offering a "free measuring up service". My (Heavily pregnant) asked the guy to leave her alone but he tried to push his way into the house. Fortunately we have a Rhodesian Ridgeback who had a quick word with the guy's legs.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> Not a nice topic, but it has risen its ugly head on several threads lately so maybe it's time to bring it into the open.
> 
> Some people have said that they never lock their doors. It's lovely to feel so safe, like going back to a more innocent age. I live in a small pueblo where everybody knows each other, and I thought it was pretty well crime-free (though I would never leave the door unlocked, I'm not that trusting!)
> 
> ...


That is very disturbing. A village close to and similar to ours. Not good.


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

I guess it's to be expected with increasing poverty and desperation. Our area seems to still be blessed with cash so there is still little crime but also a huge police presence.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

What is interesting that the crimes described are mainly not crimes of perceived poverty (aka inequality). There has been a rash of crimes around here, an even smaller community, and these are suspected of having a personal element: cars being burnt are linked to drug quarrels and in one case to politics. Muggings and similar thefts aren't talked about as much as they were when we first came here which is odd as unemployment has risen sharply.
I'm wondering if in times of economic crisis crime is motivated not so much by pure need but by a feeling that the social compact has broken down. Something along the lines of 'If those in power can't give us jobs and the means to feed our families then why should their norms be observed?'
Of course there is a link with economic austerity but I think it's a very complex link and ultimately one which has deeper social consequences than the act of someone who steals a joint of beef because his family has literally nothing to eat (which I wouldn't consider as a crime).


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

thrax said:


> I guess it's to be expected with increasing poverty and desperation. Our area seems to still be blessed with cash so there is still little crime but also a huge police presence.


Not so. Poverty per se is not inextricably linked with crime.
As I said when we were discussing the UK summer riots, what should be studied is notonly those from deprived areas who rioted but those from similar backgrounds who didn't so meaningful conclusions can be drawn.
As a child of a widowed mother growing up in the late '40s we were poor but honesty (and cleanliness) was of supreme importance not only for my family but for 99.9% of the small rural community where I grew up.
Something else is happening now and so-called poverty which in most cases is merely perceived and real inequality isn't the root cause of it.
Not sure what is but have vague ideas...


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

You're probably right and poverty certainly doesn't explainAlcalaina's horrific story. The main crime around here and has been for years, is bag snatching which is carried out, according to the town's stats, primarily by eastern Europeans who are all now largely out of work. But they weren't out of work when they were committing these crimes a few years back when the building trade was still in full swing.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

thrax said:


> You're probably right and poverty certainly doesn't explainAlcalaina's horrific story. The main crime around here and has been for years, is bag snatching which is carried out, according to the town's stats, primarily by eastern Europeans who are all now largely out of work. But they weren't out of work when they were committing these crimes a few years back when the building trade was still in full swing.


I think that much crime is linked with a breakdown in social structure - and not economic distress alone.
This needs a lot of thinking through as otherwise we could end up with knee-jerk reactions precisely along the lines of the ones we've discounted, i.e. 'poverty' will inexorably lead to crime.
As poverty is relative and in our world is usually lazy shorthand for degrees of inequality, it's difficult to prove that is the case.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

There may or may not be a link between poverty and crime but there is certainly a link between hard drugs and crime. I know it's wrong to generalise from a specific incident but I think, round here at least, the authorities have been too lax for too long about drug abuse. 

They go after the smugglers, quite rightly (huge quantities of drugs come into Spain from North Africa and Columbia via the deserted beaches of Cadiz province). They go after the next ones down the chain, who exploit the large numbers of unemployed young men to distribute their wares in the towns and villages. The local prisons are full of these small dealers, who are the easiest to catch. It's one of the few job opportunities they have.

But there have been gangs of 'end users' gathering in disused cowsheds etc ever since I've been here, everyone knows about them and where they hang out. However they are largely ignored by the Guardia Civil and there are no rehab facilities that I know of. We are all hoping that after the tragic incident I described, this ostrich mentality will change. But I don't know where the money will come from. In Barbate they can't even afford the fuel for the coastal patrol boats.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> There may or may not be a link between poverty and crime but there is certainly a link between hard drugs and crime. I know it's wrong to generalise from a specific incident but I think, round here at least, the authorities have been too lax for too long about drug abuse.
> 
> They go after the smugglers, quite rightly (huge quantities of drugs come into Spain from North Africa and Columbia via the deserted beaches of Cadiz province). They go after the next ones down the chain, who exploit the large numbers of unemployed young men to distribute their wares in the towns and villages. The local prisons are full of these small dealers, who are the easiest to catch. It's one of the few job opportunities they have.
> 
> But there have been gangs of 'end users' gathering in disused cowsheds etc ever since I've been here, everyone knows about them and where they hang out. However they are largely ignored by the Guardia Civil and there are no rehab facilities that I know of. We are all hoping that after the tragic incident I described, this ostrich mentality will change. But I don't know where the money will come from. In Barbate they can't even afford the fuel for the coastal patrol boats.


There's no doubt that what you say is true. Drugs are expensive no matter what your income or lack of and sooner or later the addiction will cost more than the addict can afford and it's almost certain s/he will resort to crime or prostitution.
Since the beginning of recorded history some people have resorted to mind-altering substances for a variety of reasons and some have for different reasons become addicted.
The drugs tolerated in western societies are of course nicotine and alcohol and governments and society as a whole earn substantially from taxing them. Other societies frown on alcohol but accept the use of other substances.
I'm beginning to share the view of many Chief Constables in the UK as well as other agencies working in the field of substance abuse that decriminalisation is the only sensible solution to a 'problem' which is a problem largely because we've made it one by a process of criminalisation and social condemnation.
Legalise, tax, make freely available....many problems associated with drug usage might -I say might - if not disappear entirely then be of less concern.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

We have heard of a masked hooded person, pulling a log across the narrow road, stopping cars and demanding money, every one has been talking about this. Sounds like it is just rumour, the Guardia Civil have not yet received a single report or complaint from any injured party..............


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## Sorani (Sep 5, 2011)

I've always been told to lock my flat door here, so I can't say much about that. The crime, in terms of street-violence, isn't so bad here as where I am from in England although there is worse pick-pocketing, which can be avoided with just some commen sense. The older men here are also more aggressive with women and harrass them more, although I haven't heard of much actual rape/sexual assault, and I get that fairly frequently because (I think) I'm very foreign-looking and I think a bit of a novelty. Generally, though, I don't have much to complain about.


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## owdoggy (Jul 23, 2008)

A house near us got done a few nights back which is not good but I have to say that house owners don’t help themselves sometimes. It’s a holiday home, which are always a target, so it’s empty quite a lot (not as empty as it is now though) but there’s no alarm, no gate, no reja on the front door, no security lighting and it’s in a quiet location. 
Jeez, I could have got in there myself & emptied the place in 5 mins.

All I’m saying is if they really want to be in they’ll get in but you’d have to have the crown jewels in your gaff to warrant the villains taking any chances. They’ll always go for the soft targets so don’t make it easy for the b*****ds. 

Apart from security alarms which are best (or dogs of course but impossible for a holiday home), gates (locked), rejas, security lighting and time clocks on inside lamps are good…… anything to cast a bit of doubt & make it harder for the robbing gits.

I hate tea leaves with a passion .....just gimmee 5 mins in a locked room with one of 'em ...... lets see how brave he is then




Doggy







Oops, bit of a rant there, sorry.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Years ago we had some foreigners ram raided a store in Frontera, nicked all the electrical goods, more or less emptied the place.

However we are an island, a very small island, yes you guessed it, the first ferry out, left rather late, 'cos the Guardia Civil searched every vehicle leaving until they found the electrical goods and the perpetrators of the burglary.

We haven't had any ram raiders before or since then, I wonder why


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> Not a nice topic, but it has risen its ugly head on several threads lately so maybe it's time to bring it into the open.
> 
> Some people have said that they never lock their doors. It's lovely to feel so safe, like going back to a more innocent age. I live in a small pueblo where everybody knows each other, and I thought it was pretty well crime-free (though I would never leave the door unlocked, I'm not that trusting!)
> 
> ...


That's horrible, just horrible.

My thoughts are...
that poverty has little to do with violent crime. What's poverty got to do with filming a dying man F goodness S?

I *do* think drugs, poor education and instability (ie not knowing if your father's going to beat the shhit out of you or if your mother's going to walk the street tonight or not) can turn you off the straight and narrow. And these circumstances often go hand in hand with poverty.

Crime here seems to go in waves. There are loads of "urbanizaciones" out in the middle of nowhere and there have, in the past, been some very nasty break ins where they have observed the house and waited until the people CAME BACK in order to beat them up believing them to have hidden safes etc in their houses. I know someone who this happened to. Then they'll pick up the gang that's working the area and everything's ok for a while. Another time it'll be shops, but less frequently.
I haven't heard of anything ATM.

Another thing has been South Americans putting on Arab accents, Spaniards putting on South American accents...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> That's horrible, just horrible.
> 
> My thoughts are...
> that poverty has little to do with violent crime. What's poverty got to do with filming a dying man F goodness S?
> ...


I'm not sure about the link between drugs and poverty, i.e. which is cause, which is effect.
Plus we should distinguish between casual, recreational drug use and addiction.
During the 'loadsamoney' '80s in the Thatcherite UK, cocaine use became a respectable drug of choice for many well-off people. My son once reported gloomily on a black tie New Year's Eve party he went to in a Norfolk cottage where he felt quite isolated being the only one who hadn't either 'skinned up' or 'cut a line'. (His drug of choice was a pint pot of bitter).
I'm no prude but I'm often taken aback by the amount of casual violence that seems de rigeur on UK tv these days and I suspect is the case in Spain too where much material is imported from the UK and US.. I find a lot of on-screen sex violent rather than erotic too -(maybe my age...) Put that together with the mindlessly brutal computer 'games' even quite young children play on their X Boxes etc. and is it any wonder that we have spawned a sick culture where maiming and killing for real is seen as another form of entertainment?


Incidentally, one of my Spanish friends blames all crime, especially gender violence, on immigrants.
There has been anti-immigrant graffiti sprayed on walls in our village, one calling for 'Muerte a los imigrantes'. When I jokingly said to her that I was considering adding 'excepto Mary y Sandra ' she solemnly said it wasn't necessary as we weren't imigrantes but guiris.....


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

The term guiri does not appear to be used here , so I had to look it up and the answer I found is rather amusing. I have shared the link

How to Spot a Guiri - Tell-Tale Signs that You Are a Guiri - Gringos in Spain


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Hepa said:


> The term guiri does not appear to be used here , so I had to look it up and the answer I found is rather amusing. I have shared the link
> 
> How to Spot a Guiri - Tell-Tale Signs that You Are a Guiri - Gringos in Spain



I would never wear socks with sandals -quelle crime de mode!!! Stevein Spain would faint at the thought!!
I'm a sort of pale-ish coffee/light-bronze colour. Quite tasteful, really. 
And I try to speak Spanish wherever possible.
So...the only point that applies to me is Number 3....try as I may I just can't eat after 9pm....
So I'm only 25% guiri....


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## Goldeneye (Nov 12, 2011)

Hepa said:


> We have heard of a masked hooded person, pulling a log across the narrow road, stopping cars and demanding money, every one has been talking about this. Sounds like it is just rumour, the Guardia Civil have not yet received a single report or complaint from any injured party..............


That actually happened in St Kitts last year, stopping a group of tourists in a mini van from a Cruise ship, I had been on the same tour just a week Prior !! But this guy was masked hooded and .... Armed!!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> I'm not sure about the link between drugs and poverty, i.e. which is cause, which is effect.
> Plus we should distinguish between casual, recreational drug use and addiction.
> During the 'loadsamoney' '80s in the Thatcherite UK, cocaine use became a respectable drug of choice for many well-off people. My son once reported gloomily on a black tie New Year's Eve party he went to in a Norfolk cottage where he felt quite isolated being the only one who hadn't either 'skinned up' or 'cut a line'. (His drug of choice was a pint pot of bitter).
> I'm no prude but I'm often taken aback by the amount of casual violence that seems de rigeur on UK tv these days and I suspect is the case in Spain too where much material is imported from the UK and US.. I find a lot of on-screen sex violent rather than erotic too -(maybe my age...) Put that together with the mindlessly brutal computer 'games' even quite young children play on their X Boxes etc. and is it any wonder that we have spawned a sick culture where maiming and killing for real is seen as another form of entertainment?
> ...


Re: drugs and poverty - yes, see what you mean. Which ever way the result's not too good. And recreatinal use is different. I was thinking more of addiction.

The immigrant thing. Quite a few times friends or aquiantences have been surprised when having a rant about _immigrants_ that I have insisted on being included in this group. "But you're different" they say. (Immigrants can't be white or educated or gainfully employed???) When they realise that there's a suggestion of racism or offence in their comments they don't know what to do. I've never been told so clearly that it's different 'cos I'm a guiri, but that's what they mean of course.


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## littleredrooster (Aug 3, 2008)

According to what official reports I've read recently, the overall recorded crime rate in Spain was still dropping significantly when the last full years figures were published.

Quite surprising perhaps in view of the crisis, or on the other hand possibly linked to the number of nationals of certain origins who have returned home perhaps ?

Teenagers however have bucked the trend and shown a significant increase in crime-rate, a sign of the times perhaps as they continue to catch up with their counterparts in other Western countries ?

Who knows, but the large increase in drunken disorderly behaviour amongst this age group appears to be causing ever increasing concern, judging by quite a few TV reports I've seen recently.


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## chica de cocentaina (Jul 25, 2011)

*crime increase*

We heard this week that there have been a sharp increase in burglaries in this area. In the space of 3 days, 19 properties were broken into, belongings taken, but more importantly each and every property was then trashed by the burglars. 

One couple I know of left their house for 1.5 hours and came back to find their house trashed, all windows smashed from the inside. This couple very very rarely leave their house as the husband has dementia and it's a major hassle for them to go out anywhere.

What a sad state. I know that things are tough, that it's 'normal' for crime to increase when recession hits, but to trash someone's house as well as steal from them is despicable in my opinion.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Really anyone caught doing it should just be put down as far as I'm concerned .


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## chica de cocentaina (Jul 25, 2011)

Ok guys...get this...we have a visit from a Spanish neighbour tonight telling us that a property less than 200 yards down the lane from us was burgled on Saturday evening early. We heard/saw nothing. They broke the door down with a huge rock, and have trashed the house....a bit too close for my comfort that one


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## toebeenz (Oct 17, 2009)

*Crime....?*



Alcalaina said:


> Not a nice topic, but it has risen its ugly head on several threads lately so maybe it's time to bring it into the open.
> 
> Some people have said that they never lock their doors. It's lovely to feel so safe, like going back to a more innocent age. I live in a small pueblo where everybody knows each other, and I thought it was pretty well crime-free (though I would never leave the door unlocked, I'm not that trusting!)
> 
> ...


There's only one answer to drug related violent crime and that is severe and relentless penalties! It is very questionable that Spain allows cannabis use in private as this gives getting stoned the stamp of approval which inevitably leads to gross misuse.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

toebeenz said:


> There's only one answer to drug related violent crime and that is severe and relentless penalties! It is very questionable that Spain allows cannabis use in private as this gives getting stoned the stamp of approval which inevitably leads to gross misuse.


I personally think that alcohol is much worse in every way than cannabis! Either ban em both or niether of em IMO. Its the banning of such things that causes lawlessness and therefore crimes

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

toebeenz said:


> There's only one answer to drug related violent crime and that is severe and relentless penalties! It is very questionable that Spain allows cannabis use in private as this gives getting stoned the stamp of approval which inevitably leads to gross misuse.



That, with respect, is utter rubbish and totally disproved by the facts.
But when it comes to topics like drugs, people don't let facts get in the way of prejudices.


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

jojo said:


> I personally think that alcohol is much worse in every way than cannabis! Either ban em both or niether of em IMO. Its the banning of such things that causes lawlessness and therefore crimes
> 
> Jo xxx


Nooooooooooooooooo. The very mention of banning alcohol caused me to grab the brandy bottle and it's still morning. Seriously, cannabis is considerably less harmful than alcohol, both in its effect and, as far as we know, its ability to damage the body. In my younger years, when the world was still in sepia, I tried cannabis in various forms and absolutely nothing ever happened, although the big pink rabbit that used to appear hated sharing any of it with me. I think that tougher laws (and enforcing them) might be introduced to prevent young people embarking on a life of alcohol abuse. Simply taxing it out of my reach won't prevent people consuming it in vast quantities. Damn, I'm rambling again. Where's the brandy....


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

thrax said:


> Nooooooooooooooooo. The very mention of banning alcohol caused me to grab the brandy bottle and it's still morning. Seriously, cannabis is considerably less harmful than alcohol, both in its effect and, as far as we know, its ability to damage the body. In my younger years, when the world was still in sepia, I tried cannabis in various forms and absolutely nothing ever happened, although the big pink rabbit that used to appear hated sharing any of it with me. I think that tougher laws (and enforcing them) might be introduced to prevent young people embarking on a life of alcohol abuse. Simply taxing it out of my reach won't prevent people consuming it in vast quantities. Damn, I'm rambling again. Where's the brandy....


My point is that making a drug illegal, a drug that actually isnt one of the worst on the planet (in fact from what I can see is pretty tame) really isnt going to help reduce crime. IMO it just puts it in the same bracket as harder drugs and thats the reason it may lead to the taking of those and criminal acts

Taxing alcohol as they have in the UK doesnt deter people, it just helps the government fill the coffers!!!! .... and yes encourages crime

Jo xxx


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## toebeenz (Oct 17, 2009)

*Drugs...*



jojo said:


> My point is that making a drug illegal, a drug that actually isnt one of the worst on the planet (in fact from what I can see is pretty tame) really isnt going to help reduce crime. IMO it just puts it in the same bracket as harder drugs and thats the reason it may lead to the taking of those and criminal acts
> 
> Taxing alcohol as they have in the UK doesnt deter people, it just helps the government fill the coffers!!!! .... and yes encourages crime
> 
> Jo xxx


I thought this subject would get a few collars hot! My point is that for those members of our society who have brains the size of a peanut, and homicidsal tendancies as well, to condone drugs of a mild and harmless nature in the hands of responsible enthusiasts, is to risk their graduating even quicker into the hard stuff.

I believe it is likely that there isn't a crack or heroin user who didn't start with the soft stuff first? I spent 10 years in New Zealand where crack labs are growing like mushrooms and murder and violent crimes are an almost daily occurence. Crack use there is out of control and making the gangs rich.

I don't accept the comparison between alcohol and drugs as being realistic as alcohol has been a part of our society ever since the monks and primitive tribesmen discovered the delights of fermentation. Yes, misuse of alcohol is destructive and anti-social but I suspect an expert would confirm that a crack-head is more dangerous than a drunk? I am reminded of a case in NZ where a crack-head went berserk with a Samuri sword and severely injured a number of people. The hideous case of the death of the 80 year old man in the hands of drugged-up youths should ring alarm bells as to the possibility ahead for a society if drug taking becomes the norm for the less intelligent members of society.

I spent most of my adult life as a musician where I saw over-indulgence of many kinds leading to debility and death both from drink and drugs. Yes, a brilliant musician when he is a drunk eventually becomes unreliable to use in many cases whereas the pot smoker is less of a liability. However, I have known dedicated pot smokers who lived their lives in a haze of incoherence and eventually lost their edge as well. Mild drug, OK, but not without its hazards.

On a lighter note, a famous saxophone player was once asked how he was able to play when he was drunk? He replied, "'coz I practice when I'm drunk!"


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

toebeenz said:


> I thought this subject would get a few collars hot! My point is that for those members of our society who have brains the size of a peanut, and homicidsal tendancies as well, to condone drugs of a mild and harmless nature in the hands of responsible enthusiasts, is to risk their graduating even quicker into the hard stuff.
> 
> I believe it is likely that there isn't a crack or heroin user who didn't start with the soft stuff first? I spent 10 years in New Zealand where crack labs are growing like mushrooms and murder and violent crimes are an almost daily occurence. Crack use there is out of control and making the gangs rich.
> 
> ...


I'm not hot under the collar - I dont really drink and I dont smoke weed (well only cigarettes). I think that cannabis smokers are far less aggressive, loud and unpleasant than drunks, they dont suffer with hangovers, nor does it affect their overall health in the same way and its my opinion that the only reason that cannabis smokers "graduate" onto hard drugs (if indeed they do - I know many people who havent) is because once the law is broken and the link with drug dealers is made, it can be an easy progression. Remove the drug dealer and sell it in a responsible fashion and it wouldnt happen.

Drugs are rife in the music world as is alcohol - they take away inhibitions and pre gig nerves.... oh and apparently induce creativity????????! I know a famous sax player too and he used to do cocaine simply to keep himself awake when travelling between gigs.

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

I think my brain is slightly larger than a peanut - I have two University degrees - and I have homicidal tendencies only when I read opinion masquerading as fact which is what your post consists of, I'm afraid.
Do you regard the UK Association of Chief Police Constables as having brains the size of peanuts? Have they homicidal tendencies? Or the former Chief Scientific Advisor to the last Government who resigned because the politicians bowed under pressure from the gutter press and regraded cannabis?
Don't let us forget the prestigious US Commission set up under the aegis of former President Regan which concluded that cannabis had no harmful effects and was no more addictive than nicotine....
Or the fact that there is no medical evidence to show a link between the use of soft or hard drugs.
You could also consult my cousin Dr. Joost Harwig, holder of two Doctorates,- some peanut...some brain... formerly of Health Canada and Advisor to the Canadian Government, who was responsible for the licensing of cannabis for medical use.....
Or you could google the evidence for the role played by alcohol in road traffic accidents, domestic violence, violent crime, divorce, deaths and chronic illness.....
Or you could produce evidence other than your own prejudice to substantiate your opinion.....
I don't drink much -it's bad for me and I have smoked cannabis for over thirty years, as has my partner. During that time I have been in steady well-paid employment , finally ending my career as a School Principal. I have also run my own business, been a Director of my partner's companies, served as a Councillor and Director of a Housing Association as well as having worked as an advisor on European Employment Law for my Trades Union and a member of various international bodies.. I now help run an animal rescue charity in Spain.
Not bad for a hopeless homicidal maniac with a brain the size of a peanut, eh??
Oh and has anyone ever warned you that drinking ginger beer will lead you on to the hard stuff and you'll end up drinking a pint of gin a day???
I suspect not.

By the way, New Zealand was another country which foolishly adopted Thatcherite neo-con economic policies which ruined the economy and broke the formerly stable social structure. Do you not think that could hsve had an effect on crime rates?


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

toebeenz said:


> I believe it is likely that there isn't a crack or heroin user who didn't start with the soft stuff first?


Why is it, do you think, that using cannabis leads to the use of crack (if indeed it does) but alcohol does not?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jimenato said:


> Why is it, do you think, that using cannabis leads to the use of crack (if indeed it does) but alcohol does not?



I think I should start a campaign to picket Bar Oba.....after all, pot is less harmful than gin....
On second thoughts, no.....you and your clients support ADANA...


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## owdoggy (Jul 23, 2008)

On a lighter note, regarding the dodgy addictive habits of musicians (and the bit about it making you play better or more creative is complete bollox by the way …….. kiss, kiss….. love Doggy







), Aerosmith, who are almost legendary for their ….. er ….. indulgences, were so collectively bombed at one gig that they went on, played the last song first, said their farewells to the bemused audience then exited stage left only to be told by their management team (you fancy that job?) that they hadn’t quite done a full gig and they’d have to get back on.

That’s rock’n’roll baby.












Doggy


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## mickw (Jun 13, 2011)

mrypg9 said:


> I think my brain is slightly larger than a peanut - I have two University degrees - and I have homicidal tendencies only when I read opinion masquerading as fact which is what your post consists of, I'm afraid.
> Do you regard the UK Association of Chief Police Constables as having brains the size of peanuts? Have they homicidal tendencies? Or the former Chief Scientific Advisor to the last Government who resigned because the politicians bowed under pressure from the gutter press and regraded cannabis?
> Don't let us forget the prestigious US Commission set up under the aegis of former President Regan which concluded that cannabis had no harmful effects and was no more addictive than nicotine....
> Or the fact that there is no medical evidence to show a link between the use of soft or hard drugs.
> ...


alchol,crack,H ,weed its all results in crime at the end of the day,you have a decent position in life and are fortunate you havent progressed further,in london where jobs are scarce and benefits are easy to come by,mugging,shooting and robbing people is rife and drugs are 90% of the cause,how else would you get the balls to carry out such hideous crimes,,, and crime is what the thread is about


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

mickw said:


> alchol,crack,H ,weed its all results in crime at the end of the day,you have a decent position in life and are fortunate you havent progressed further,in london where jobs are scarce and benefits are easy to come by,mugging,shooting and robbing people is rife and drugs are 90% of the cause,how else would you get the balls to carry out such hideous crimes,,, and crime is what the thread is about


Crime in Spain is what the thread is about. In Spain there isnt the same level of benefits. I would imagine desperation is probably the "balls" needed to carry out such hideous crimes in many cases and thats the point of the thread

Jo xxx


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## mickw (Jun 13, 2011)

jojo said:


> Crime in Spain is what the thread is about. In Spain there isnt the same level of benefits. I would imagine desperation is probably the "balls" needed to carry out such hideous crimes in many cases and thats the point of the thread
> 
> Jo xxx


yes your right,but its the world over,i was using london as an example as i experience it daily, most crimes concerning mugging and robbery are a result of drugs,most crimes concerning violence,wife beating and stabbings are the result of alchahol,much the same in spain with its domestic violence record


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## toebeenz (Oct 17, 2009)

*Crime...*



mrypg9 said:


> I think my brain is slightly larger than a peanut - I have two University degrees - and I have homicidal tendencies only when I read opinion masquerading as fact which is what your post consists of, I'm afraid.
> Do you regard the UK Association of Chief Police Constables as having brains the size of peanuts? Have they homicidal tendencies? Or the former Chief Scientific Advisor to the last Government who resigned because the politicians bowed under pressure from the gutter press and regraded cannabis?
> Don't let us forget the prestigious US Commission set up under the aegis of former President Regan which concluded that cannabis had no harmful effects and was no more addictive than nicotine....
> Or the fact that there is no medical evidence to show a link between the use of soft or hard drugs.
> ...


What a pity there aren't more people like you. Unfortunately there are still people who beat 80 year olds to death in the street!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

toebeenz said:


> What a pity there aren't more people like you. Unfortunately there are still people who beat 80 year olds to death in the street!


I totally agree. Sadly, its not only drug addicts who behave in such a way.

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

toebeenz said:


> What a pity there aren't more people like you. Unfortunately there are still people who beat 80 year olds to death in the street!




Yes, that is sadly true. Some of the attackers are high on drugs, some are out of their skulls on alcohol, some are just vicious little scumbags. So your point is??

I was hoping you would produce some *evidence* to back up your assertions.....


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

mickw said:


> alchol,crack,H ,weed its all results in crime at the end of the day,you have a decent position in life and are fortunate you havent progressed further,in london where jobs are scarce and benefits are easy to come by,mugging,shooting and robbing people is rife and drugs are 90% of the cause,how else would you get the balls to carry out such hideous crimes,,, and crime is what the thread is about


I'm not sure what your point is.
Are you linking crime with poverty, drug use or both
Could you provide evidence from a reputable source to back up your claim that 90% of crime is drug -related?
Far too many people are capable of criminal acts with or without 'balls'.
There is far too much blather about drug usage and practically none of it is backed by EVIDENCE.
What has been shown to be of significance by medical research is that addictive personalities are the root cause of most addiction, not addictive substances.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

I blame the parents! Having babies cos they can and ultimately, people bringing children up to be unable to understand right from wrong, empathise or consider the consequences of their actions!! - but I guess thats another thread

Jo xxx


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

jojo said:


> I blame the parents! Having babies cos they can and ultimately, people bringing children up to be unable to understand right from wrong, empathise or consider the consequences of their actions!! - but I guess thats another thread
> 
> Jo xxx


So you shouldn't have children in case they turn out to be criminals?? Bit severe, no?

The guy who beat up the old man in my village lost his parents when he was a child. He was brought up by his aunt and uncle, elderly, law-abiding and regular church-goers. They housed and fed him but they had no control over him - he's 23 now. He's never had a job because there aren't any jobs, he got in with a bad crowd and became addicted to heroin. 

The problem is not that he wasn't brought up properly, but that there is virtually no help in rural communities for people with drug problems, or their families. This must be addressed urgently and if decriminalising recreational drugs provides tax revenue to pay for it, so be it. It's too important to be left to the nuns.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> So you shouldn't have children in case they turn out to be criminals?? Bit severe, no?
> 
> The guy who beat up the old man in my village lost his parents when he was a child. He was brought up by his aunt and uncle, elderly, law-abiding and regular church-goers. They housed and fed him but they had no control over him - he's 23 now. He's never had a job because there aren't any jobs, he got in with a bad crowd and became addicted to heroin.
> 
> The problem is not that he wasn't brought up properly, but that there is virtually no help in rural communities for people with drug problems, or their families. This must be addressed urgently and if decriminalising recreational drugs provides tax revenue to pay for it, so be it. It's too important to be left to the nuns.



That's how I see it. First we have to understand that not everyone who is a drug user is an addict. There are very many users of drugs such as cocaine and heroin who hold down jobs and relationships and pose no problem to society. Their recreational drug usage should be taxed to fund treatment for the hard core of problem addicts as you suggest.
How you are brought up is important - I've seen too many frightful parents and their effect on their offspring during my years in education to doubt that.
But just as a horrible childhood with gruesome parents doesn't always produce an adult monster, neither does a 'good' upbringing always produce a saintly person.
I was brought up in a very strict almost Victorian household where the virtues of work, cleanliness and being 'respectable' were hammered into me. No-one swore or got drunk or mentioned sex in our house.
And here I am, a lesbian druggie with up-to-now hidden homicidal tendencies...


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