# Expats exit grim UK



## mman (Nov 15, 2009)

Johannesburg - Many South Africans seeking a land of milk and honey in the UK are finding misery and Marmite instead.

While the majority of the estimated 250 000 to 500 000 South Africans in the UK are expected to stick it out, many are returning to SA amid weak employment prospects, alarm over the effects of staggering public cuts and tax increases.

The new coalition government has asked state departments to prepare for spending cuts of up to 40% over four years (although 25% is more likely) in an effort to tackle the country's budget deficit (11% of gross domestic product, compared to 9.9% in the US and 7.3% in SA), the highest in the European Union.

But an estimated 1.2 million people may lose their jobs over the next five years as a result.

Youth unemployment is already at its highest level in 17 years. One in five 18-year-old youths are not in education or jobs, and claim state welfare payments.

The effect of the government's austerity measures will be felt across all age and income groups.

According to estimates of the UK's Higher Education Careers Service, the jobless rate among graduates could reach 20% in the next five years (unemployment for highly skilled professionals in SA is 1.4%, according to a recent survey).

Even for those who get to keep their jobs, tough times are ahead.

While some state functions, like the employer of Anton Böhmer, a South African who works for the National Health Service, have been ring-fenced from cuts, he is facing a salary freeze for the foreseeable future.

"It is not getting better," says Böhmer, who plans to return to SA.

On top of that, tax changes will take their toll.

While the corporate tax rate has been cut, VAT will rise from 17.5% to 20%, the national insurance levy has been hiked and government has scaled back personal tax allowances and child tax credits. Capital gains tax has been increased to 28% for the higher income groups.

The budget cuts are expected to shrink the economy by 6% over the next three years, hurting an already faltering UK economic recovery and weak job market.

Rebecca Davis of the SA Business Club in London says members have particularly noticed a disillusionment with the labour situation among South Africans in the UK.

"At the SA Business Club we've observed over the past year a definite trend of reverse migration.

"Disenchantment with unemployment, or with poorer employment prospects than imagined, in combination with positive reports about the 2010 FIFA World Cup from South Africa and a feeling that it's generally a good place to live right now, are definitely motivating this move."

According to a recent Adcorp survey, about 39 000 South African job-seekers returned from foreign countries over the past year. This figure is expected to rise to 120 000 as foreign work contracts expire.

Mike Jackson, CEO of PPS, says his company - which offers financial services products to graduate professional - has seen trends among its members that indicate they are considering returning home.

"We have seen an increased interest from our overseas members to maintain and upgrade their benefits, which can be a good indicator that they intend returning to South Africa.

"Also encouraging is the fact that we have seen a noticeable decrease in the number of our members cancelling their policies due to emigration," says Jackson. "This suggests that many South African graduate professionals are not only more optimistic about the future in South Africa but are also seeing improved career prospects here as well."

But one SA-born investment banker in the City, London's financial centre, says the increase in capital gains tax is making some South Africans hesitant to sell up and move back to SA.

Many South Africans would kill for UK problems

He thinks the crisis will affect South Africans living outside London more. "London is a country on its own."

Also, many South Africans would kill for the UK's problems.

Schools remain free and healthcare too, says Adri Kotzé, a freelance writer and mother of two. State benefits remain lavish to South African eyes, with some unemployed couples able to fund overseas holidays for their families on "job-seeker" allowances and child benefits.

Kotzé plans to stay on in the UK.

"We arrived in the midst of the financial crisis – if we can survive that, we'll survive (Chancellor of the Exchequer) George (Osborne), the Axeman."

A thirty-something South African living in London, Maia Suhr, says she also plans to remain in the UK and – apart from VAT – the austerity measures won't affect her.

"The main reasons I won't go back to SA are security concerns and the fact that I can travel easily from here."

For those who are thinking of returning, there are a number of considerations.

The local labour market, particularly in financial services, may be tougher than they expect.

Some expats who fled the banking implosion in London during the financial crisis have struggled to find a job, Craig Thompson, SA director of international recruitment agency Michael Page, recently told Fin24.com.

South African expatriates also need to ascertain whether their life and healthcare benefits are still applicable, says Jackson.

"Insurance cover can vary substantially between countries and it is important to bear in mind that switching providers typically involves waiting periods on new medical insurance, critical illness and disability policies as well as pre-existing condition exclusions, which may apply to some insurance policies and medical insurance.

"It is important for anyone who is considering returning home to engage with a qualified financial adviser, who will be familiar with all the challenges entailed with helping someone returning from overseas and how best to structure the various policies and benefits," says Jackson.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

What a bunch of baloney....

Whats "many" when they don't even know how many South Africans are there in the first place & if you read the article those interviewed want to stay for all the reasons mentioned.

Its just another article written to fill up white space.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

our buddy Rooster trying catch some blog hits.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Daxk said:


> our buddy Rooster trying catch some blog hits.


The Rooster has flown the coup 

Still waiting for the Roosters reply on:

1. The free health service for all South Africans
2. Information on the new nuclear power station that's being built.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Halo said:


> The Rooster has flown the coup
> 
> Still waiting for the Roosters reply on:
> 
> ...


wont get it, he pops in, registers a new nick, posts a bunch of posts quickly to get some status and dissapears.

had a run in with him before.recognised the style of writing, just shouts louder than anyone else.
only way he will learn is to be wrong place wrong time, unfortunately.


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## mman (Nov 15, 2009)

mman said:


> The new coalition government has asked state departments to prepare for spending cuts of up to 40% over four years (although 25% is more likely) in an effort to tackle the country's budget deficit (11% of gross domestic product, compared to 9.9% in the US and 7.3% in SA), the highest in the European Union.


This is the most interesting part of the article, plus Halo how come when you find an article that supports your views its *Facts* but when an article goes against your views its baloney?


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

mman said:


> This is the most interesting part of the article, plus Halo how come when you find an article that supports your views its *Facts* but when an article goes against your views its baloney?


What fact - You mean the one where the asked? - Hey I want a Million £'s - Now there is a fact.... does it mean anything, hell no.


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## mman (Nov 15, 2009)

Halo said:


> What fact - You mean the one where the asked? - Hey I want a Million £'s - Now there is a fact.... does it mean anything, hell no.


Dont quite follow you, anyways the article has plenty facts.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

*Summary (And what are the facts)*

*Looking for Facts:*
What is Many South Africans....? 
That’s a broad estimate
Speculation on what the coalition will do
More speculation about jobs
Speculation about graduate reduction (considering some of their Majors its probably a good thing)
Tough times ahead, again speculation and compared to what?????
Lots more speculation
Rebecca from a SA Bussiness using anecdotal evidence... What a surprise, I wonder what’s in it for her.

*Facts:*
Youth unemployment is high.. Lazy gits don't want just any job as sometimes its easier to live on welfare (the only real part of the UK that bites)
39000 returned due to not finding work - its not that they wanted to come back (from a survey)
Many South African would KILL for UK problems
You get money to look for work in the UK
More plan to stay as they know what may await them in SA
Medical aid is a scam - Thank the good Lord for free treatment for all in the UK
If you go back - Make damn sure you get your ducks in a row

*Reality Check:*

It’s not like it was in 1997 in the UK where I would get 20 calls a day for work but in 2010 it’s still a much better place to be with a family than in SA.


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## undrkvabrtha (Jul 12, 2010)

I'm Aussie, but South African as well. My parents still stay there.

While the UK may face financial issues as a nation, the quality of life is a different issue altogether.

In South Africa you could get mugged because someone thinks you may have money. But in the UK, you could get mugged simply because someone has nothing better to do.

Same in Australia. The 'peaceful-nation' illusion is just that - an illusion. You could get mugged just as easily if you're in the wrong suburb at the wrong time (try Werribee or Sunshine VIC - suburbs of Melbourne).

In Australia, you could get beaten up for saying 'hi' to a bunch of idiot Lebs, or by idiot Christian extremists because you're dressed like a Muslim.

The difference is that a lot of such crimes go unreported.

In the UK, it's safe if you know where you're going, and have adequately planned out your trip. There's no safety net there either, from my limited experience.

However, citizens in Oz and the UK are well taken care of by the government in terms of health and utilities, unlike South Africa. Load-shedding and flailing infrastructure are not an issue in the UK, and in Oz, while the infrastructure's not as extensive as it should be, it is quite rarely that the electricity grid fails to handle load.

In the UK, you don't even pay anything at a hospital. In Oz, the medical system is teteering under the load it carries, and I guess the Govt. is working on it.

The medical system in South Africa has the capabilities, but not the funding / legislation required to make it widely accessible.

This was none of my business, but couldn't help commenting...


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

valid comment ,unpronounceable nickname.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

undrkvabrtha said:


> In South Africa you could get mugged because someone thinks you may have money. But in the UK, you could get mugged simply because someone has nothing better to do.


I think this is an over simplification.... and I would dissagree about your view of the SA mugging... A mobile phone is not exactley money and the end result differs as in the UK if you hand it over you'll get a scare while in SA the consiquences are much greater.



undrkvabrtha said:


> Same in Australia. The 'peaceful-nation' illusion is just that - an illusion. You could get mugged just as easily if you're in the wrong suburb at the wrong time (try Werribee or Sunshine VIC - suburbs of Melbourne).
> 
> In Australia, you could get beaten up for saying 'hi' to a bunch of idiot Lebs, or by idiot Christian extremists because you're dressed like a Muslim.


I think you need to back this up as it seems very anecdotal to me - As for the problems you mentioned it generally goes down to a criminal element. I know people in Werribee and while its not Paradise its better than most SA suburbs I've seen.



undrkvabrtha said:


> The difference is that a lot of such crimes go unreported.


In South Africa - Yes



undrkvabrtha said:


> In the UK, it's safe if you know where you're going, and have adequately planned out your trip. There's no safety net there either, from my limited experience.


This is not true.


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## undrkvabrtha (Jul 12, 2010)

Halo said:


> I think this is an over simplification.... and I would dissagree about your view of the SA mugging... A mobile phone is not exactley money and the end result differs as in the UK if you hand it over you'll get a scare while in SA the consiquences are much greater.
> 
> 
> I think you need to back this up as it seems very anecdotal to me - As for the problems you mentioned it generally goes down to a criminal element. I know people in Werribee and while its not Paradise its better than most SA suburbs I've seen.
> ...




Hi Halo,

Equations change when you're a white guy in SA, or when you're a brown guy in the UK (this is not a reflection of subtle racism in the UK, or reverse-racism in SA - that'd be a whole different ball game, and IMHO, it's not fair to judge a nation by a few bogans, or by a few who're rightfully enraged at centuries of thievery).

I stand by my statements, though. I've lived in Manchester, London and Cornwall in the UK. Have lived in Melbourne (Ashburton VIC) and am currently in ACT. 

While I'd love to stay in Cornwall (magnificent craggy cliffs and awesome countryside), I'd never go down London's East-end, or near the Marshalling Yards in Manchester - to name a few places.

Your perspective sounds like you're white (nope, am not playing a race card -just being factual) - in which case, you're unlikely to see what I see in South Africa, and possibly vice-versa.

i.e. you get to bear the brunt of 300 years of oppression, looting, theft, rape and let loose in many a South African psyche (not everyone, mind you) and I get mugged only if I appear to have something of value.

And regarding Werribee, don't take my word for it - check the news - not very long back, a mother and son were attacked at a traffic light in their car - they simply beat'em up and battered their car, and then drove away.

Or better still, check the council publications for the number of unsolved violence or the statistics on reported crime.

And no, Werribee is not better than most suburbs in SA - that sounds rather limited.

In contrast, I've not heard of any travellers to SA get mugged or attacked while they were there - for the FIFA World Cup.

My parents stay in Middelburg, but before I moved to Oz, we stayed in Durban. I still think there're safety issues that compare quite well to South African cases here in Oz, or in the UK.

However, I understand where you're coming from, and can see why you hold to your opinion.


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## undrkvabrtha (Jul 12, 2010)

*Lol!*



Daxk said:


> valid comment ,unpronounceable nickname.


try reading it aloud - and may be pronounceable


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Good post and I have to agree with most of it but it is a little misleading as while there is loads of crime in Werribee (hence why I don’t stay there) when compared to the SA average its still pretty good. You be surprised how many boeties (Afrikaaners) live there. This is why I TRY to stick to stats as its all about your likelihood of :

1.	Being a victim of crime
2.	A victim of a violent Crime
3.	A victim of rape etc etc

What I’m getting at is that you overall existence and safety is better, better prospects with a most likely better outcome in the coming years for your family.

I don’t want to get into this but the whole suppression etc etc does not wash with me as tribes were doing that long before the “white” tribes came a knocking. I find it does not make a good argument as many wrongs don’t make a right and it solves nothing…

Sorry, but Durban is crime central, I had a mate who “went back” to make a difference, (he staying on the Bluff) and lasted two years before moving on and OUT again. 

On the racism issue – That will remain for years but most of it is generally a cultural thing not because they are a certain colour/race/religion. English black people are some of the most racist I have ever met (A good mate of mine is married to a Black lady and her family disowned her) so one must be careful as we all ARE racist to some degree and it’s not a label solely reserves for whites.
(Yes I know its anecdotal but most who have an open mind can see both sides)


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## undrkvabrtha (Jul 12, 2010)

Statistically, there're more unreported rapes in the US and UK than ever possible in South Africa (where more crimes're actually reported - I know for a fact) - and that's a statistic, as are so man other social claims.

To get a point across, Halo, I never suggested that racism is a white luxury.

And yes, I am aware that blacks can be as racist as anyone else (which I referred to as reverse-racism in my previous reply - it appears to be the term in vogue) who may lay claim to that privilege. 

I guess what I'm saying is 'quality of life' is a subjective term, and the Boers in Werribee would move to Glen Huntly if they could afford it (like they could till the early 90s when the spoils of thievery - the ZAR - was double the value of USD).

Durban is crime central, depending on where you stay - as it is with many other cities - I stayed in Kenville until 2004. But then, not surprisingly, crime-central is also Vatican City. As is Washington. As is Western Sydney and several parts of Melbourne (I work with vicitims of crime, and know how much crime goes unreported in Oz). Nothing to be sorry about there - facts're facts.

And did you know that in spite of the strict gun laws in Oz, we rate #5 in the world when it comes to gun murders?

Washington was first, but has now been overtaken by Jo'burg (somebody's proud, surely!). 

And one big factor is the outstanding press coverage that crime receives in SA. Press in countries like the US and Oz tend to be more viewership-oriented when it comes to reporting real crime - they like to hold on to the illusion of a peaceful society.

As for English black people, my friend - they're English. Period. And you're talking about a society which has thrived on preaching righteousness, but practicing a class-based social system. Unfortunately, as an Aussie, I'm part of the monarchy problem. But then, there're enough republicans in Oz to turn that around in the near future, so can't say I'm too worried about it.

But that said, blacks in the UK are not ALL racist, as I would say of people of any other color - in the UK or elsewere. It's just that when you try to survive in a society where birds of the same color stick together, you kind of get too far into the act - it happens not just in the UK, but in France, in South Africa, in Germany, and elsewhere. 

And yes, I agree - racism is probably human in nature. The Spanish, the English, the Dutch, the Arabs, the Central Asians and Pol Pot have proven that time and again.

However, its expression in the form of discrimination, or patronising behavior is probably something us humans should've sorted out long before all those smart Asian politicians (Moses, Jesus & Mohammed?) decided to make the best of it - I think, as a human being.

And I'm not sure I'm on this forum to discuss racism.

I clearly mentioned it as a factor that influences white travellers to South Africa. Not as a phenomenon to discuss on this forum.

As for suppression, sure it happened before the whites came along - millenia ago, the North Africans were in the slave-trade chaining up the Spanish and other Europeans - the Arabs did it, the Zulus did it. Big deal. At least they were honest about the suppression, and didn't claim they were doing good for anybody. And on top of that, they don't mind being termed slave-traders or racists because they acknowledge they are - now that is something the English have yet to acknowledge. 

But of course, that is now history.

I don't think I suggested that many wrongs make a right - rather, to right a wrong, it is important to understand the social or historical motivation that drives the wrong-doer. It is pure idiocy to sweep the real reason under the carpet, rather than to isolate the reason, and solve the issue (which could take generations - after all, the damage was done across generations)

And I wonder why it is that when you, Halo, present anecdotal evidence, as you so correctly observed, it doesn't require any back-up or evidence - you suggest that the open-minded are likely to see both sides... I conclude that you don't like anecdotes other than your own.

Nevertheless, I understand your stance, and will leave it at that.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

*Preface:*
_I did say that what I said was anecdotal so I’m not sure why you made a point of it… If you want a specific fact/stat – Please ask and I will try and comply._

I would love to see those stats that say that crimes are under-reported in the UK compared to South Africa… I lived in the UK for 15 years and if you push someone that’s assault. Each crime is dealt with, I doubt the same can be said for South Africa – So I look forward to those statistics.

Quality of life is always subjective but if you take a mean life is better in Australia, hell, you’re here.

Facts are always per/capita… and NationMaster is a good place to start – Have a look.
Murders (per capita) statistics - countries compared - NationMaster

*GB: *It’s the same society who were the 1st to ban slavery 200 years ago while others continue that tradition to this very day so we must be careful when pointing fingers. As for people being honest about what they did – You must be kidding… All you hear in South Africa is about the Ubuntu of the tribes and the big bad white guy that took everything. Victim mentality….. People need to stop playing that song, stand up and do something about it just as countless nations have done over the years.

Suppression should not equate to violence and hatred – Perhaps the Koreans should start killing the Japanese or continually demand compensation…. Do they – Ummmmmmmmm, No.

It’s a good debate and I think we are just on slightly opposite sides of the fence which is great as there is always room for both parties to move and make good judgements going forward.


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## undrkvabrtha (Jul 12, 2010)

Halo said:


> *Preface:*
> 
> I would love to see those stats that say that crimes are under-reported in the UK compared to South Africa… I lived in the UK for 15 years and if you push someone that’s assault. Each crime is dealt with, I doubt the same can be said for South Africa – So I look forward to those statistics. [\QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Sorry for taking so long to reply – Been very busy and I generally only devote 10min/day to forums unless its work related and these replies take some time.

Yes, statistics can be manipulated but dead bodies with bullet holes are hard to fabricate. Murder/Homicide etc etc is relativity well documented.

Yes I am in Australia, for now, as it provides my family a very good life. I don’t presume anything, and now that I know you are a man of the world I will never question you again – . Didn’t like De Klerk then…. Neither did I.

You are now skating around the point… What has the employment rate got to do with anything? Nationmaster is a good starting point (I don’t care what year it is – please dispute those figure if you can) – Then you can go to places like SA Stats, the police force and the news and you build a picture…. Being a BA you should know this. So unless you can provide those stats about SA’s crime being underreported compared to the UK I think you need to move on.

As I have said, if you want specific stats – Please ask.

I see you’re not a fan of the English but lets get real here – we are talking modern times. I will leave your dislike of the boers for another email.

Please provide the statistics on the 42% unreported crime in Australia, it’s another statistic I would love to see. I’m working nothing out till you provide me with the source of your statistics.

I too have family and friends in the UK but that’s irrelevant…. What is relevant are the dead bodies and missing TV’s which is well documented (unlike in South Africa)

You keep tell me you understand, well, at first I thought you did but now I’m not to sure….. As the more you type the more I see a resentment of all things western and it all seems like an attack on what was brought (good and bad) from the west. Give yourself a hug. :eyebrows:


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

I would love to see some stats on pedal cycles stolen in SA - Har Har
BBC News - Crime figures show 8% fall in England and Wales


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## undrkvabrtha (Jul 12, 2010)

It's all good, Halo. Thanks for taking the time to reply amidst your schedule.

"You are now skating around the point… What has the employment rate got to do with anything?"

It's a statistic, Halo, and I was describing how statistics are manipulated. I'm not sure you got the idea. Here's another example:

Suburb - Chisholm, ACT

The crime rate around this area is so high, that the local residents have taken matters into their own hands. The polics haven't been able to do anything about it. This will not appear on any statistic maintained by the Govt 'cos of the way such crimes are documented by the police. If you want to see this statistic in action, why don't you visit Lanyon shops any time after 9pm to confirm this? 

"So unless you can provide those stats about SA’s crime being underreported compared to the UK I think you need to move on."

Dude, look at your sentence... how in the world is anything declared as 'underreported'? ever wonder? And it's specific kinds of crime that go underreported (read my post again)- the reason being the way the report is classified by the system. I don't think you get it. 

In Oz, if someone breaks into your house, it's merely recorded as an 'incident' rather than a 'burglary' by the police. In other words, only crimes that arrests or indictments associated with them are actually counted as crimes. Those with no leads are simply ignored in the statistic.

In South Africa, on the other hand, such a record would come under the 'violent burglary' category, and is counted in the statistics.

"Being a BA you should know this"

Correct. I do. 10 points!

"I see you’re not a fan of the English but lets get real here – we are talking modern times. I will leave your dislike of the boers for another email."

Impeded vision, I say. English is my first language, and although I'm only 1/8th English, I'm just as proud of true achievements by my people. 
I just won't be a sycophant to ridiculous claims about English or Boer superiority - or a class-based society. No culture or civilization that has displayed ethics of such standards can command my respect for its past, although I will respect what is good about it in modern times, as you so well put it. 

BTW, my wife is a boer, so please don't jump to conclusions as to what I like or don't like  be it in a future email or a post.

Thievery is thievery, mate. Whenever it was, or whatever it was about. That's not a comment on English or Boer culture as a whole, but rather a condemnation of such acts by various militant factions of both these cultures. If you can't see the difference, then that's that.

"What is relevant are the dead bodies and missing TV’s which is well documented"

I didn't realize one could simply look at a statistic and decide that it covers all events in that category. I'm sure everyone in the UK reports everything, and it's all documented nicely - whatever helps you sleep at night.

"As the more you type the more I see a resentment of all things western "

Yeah sure. Grow up. I see things as they are, and prefer not to be biased because I'm white, or my wife is a boer. I don't think you could say the same. You appear blinded by armchair patriotism (Albeit to the wrong nation - your'e in Oz) and I reckon we can safely stop this discussion here. 

I'm not going to provide you with any statistic, dude. If you want the truth, go there and find it - just as I did. Or just stick with that inaccurate website you send me to earlier - whatever makes you happy.

BTW, in English, the plural of TV is TVs. The apostrophe is a grammatical error. 

On the mention that I understand, I do - my grandfather was an Englishman, and he was like you - he couldn't see any fault with the English even when they were ordering genocides in various nations in the 1930s.

Not very respectable, me thinks.

Cheers.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Cheers for the grammar lesson... Always welcome  Will get back to you shortly....

PS As for being on OZ - As I have stated numerous times... Its to get a PP so my children have the option in 20 years to live where they want. Look at all those poor sob's in SA that are unable to move due to their passport. I will not let that happen to my family. The world changes quickly.


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## undrkvabrtha (Jul 12, 2010)

Halo said:


> Cheers for the grammar lesson... Always welcome  Will get back to you shortly....
> 
> PS As for being on OZ - As I have stated numerous times... Its to get a PP so my children have the option in 20 years to live where they want. Look at all those poor sob's in SA that are unable to move due to their passport. I will not let that happen to my family. The world changes quickly.


Anytime, Halo.

It's good to be English :eyebrows:

I wish you the best with the Passports for your kids. I have 4 passports, and 2 Permanent Residencies, and I have to say I did so in view of giving my children options. It's the prudent thing to do - as you wisely observed.

The paperwork was tedious -especially to claim my British passport (based on ancestry) - and I do hope my children do not see what I have seen. And if they do, I do pray that they condone the crime, and not the people involved. It's two different things, and such a view requires a very unbiased perspective.

Like you, I empathize with the poor saps in SA. Mobility is limited for them, and I have NO sympathy - they brought it on themselves.

While I differ in my view from you, please note that I do not condone their curently-violent culture, the ignorance they hold on to so tightly, or the ridiculous bull**** the black government pumps out. However, I do understand why they are driven to be the way they are - and Boers and the English being the causative agent did not stop me from taking a Boer as my life partner. 

I hope you can see where I'm coming from.

I was amongst the first to rejoice when that plonker of a health minister Ms Tshabalala-Mismang died. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

And I'll also be the first to rejoice when Oz becomes a republic worthy of its citizens.

Cheers


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

I do see where you are coming from....

This I believe is not the thread for determining the meaning of life but one that points to the so called Grim UK. I think we need to focus on that.

People leave the UK for many reasons but as you know everyone and his dog still want a pieces of the Island as it has much to offer. I'm willing to get those stats (hey, I'll try) but I would have a guess there must be a 20-1 ratio of 20-50 year old people migrating from one to the other (I am not talking about ex-pats who are on a contract etc etc). I'm sure the ratio is even higher for Australia as the karki-clad brigade seem to love this place, especially Perth.

Unless you can produce some evidence of under-reported crime in the UK and OZ you are batting on a very thin wicket.
Here are some good stats - A little old but I can't see why the trend would change.
Getting away with Murder

People can live where they like but one honestly cannot put you hand on your heart and say that South Africa is as safe as Australia or the UK. I've lived in all three and understand them well and they are leagues apart pre/post ANC rule. You have passport for a reason and I'm sure the vast majority of South Africans if offered a passport and a job in the USA/Canada/UK/OZ and were allowed to take what they have out would be gone in a flash.

I did a comparison and the Murder rate in a reasonably sized GOOD municipality in Cape Town was only 3x less than the yearly murder rate for Victoria) - In bad area's its MORE than in Vic - Yes, more people etc etc... but I'm sorry, those number don't add up. Look for yourself - Have fun (I would add that you could add heaps onto the SA Police stats not that it needs it)

[http://www.saps.gov.za/statistics/reports/crimestats/2009/provinces/w_cape/western_cape.htm
Victoria Police - Crime Statistics

Have a good day in Gods country.....


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## undrkvabrtha (Jul 12, 2010)

sure man, whatever makes you happy. I'm not in for a discussion where we're going around in circles.

If you want to live by the stats the powers that be want you to live by, so be it. 

Cheers.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Agree (you need some facts for that )

I don't or I wouldn't be in OZ as the crime is higher here than in the UK. I do however get irritated by people telling me its all good in SA and crime happens everywhere. If you take the mean life is better elsewhere and I'm not just talking about safety. I have yet to meet a South African here who was not either directly affected by crime or had a family member affected by crime but anecdotal evidence on a forum is fine to a point BUT many will not believe. This is where the stats come in which confirms those stories. As I said to you before you take bits and pieces from here and there to build the picture.

Take it easy in Australia.


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## undrkvabrtha (Jul 12, 2010)

I was born (and brought up elsewhere) in Warrandyte VIC. It's always been easy for me here, Halo. Try not to patronize those whose votes welcomed you into this nation.

I could say the same of us Aussies. Everyone's been affected by crime, man. Every nation. Every city.

I get irritated when people are held gullible by those who provide them with dodgy statistics (which would include most governments).

But thanks for the goodwill.

Let others decide what they will believe and don't. Speak for yourself unless a group elected you to speak on their behalf.

As for your version of how I build a picture, it doesn't sound very different from yours - except that you've pulled out statistics without understanding how they were created.

Take it easy on yourself.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

undrkvabrtha said:


> As for your version of how I build a picture, it doesn't sound very different from yours - except that you've pulled out statistics without understanding how they were created.


So you fiddle them and not the Government 
(As I said before, its hard to fake dead bodies with bullet holes in them)

PS Q: How long did you live in South Africa for?


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## undrkvabrtha (Jul 12, 2010)

Lol. I wish I could fiddle with them - at least those who live by them would get some truth 

I lived in South Africa from when I was 4 until I was 23 - that's 19 odd years. And yourself?


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

About the same for me.....20 years (PW -> Mandela)


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## Johanna (Apr 13, 2009)

Halo said:


> About the same for me.....20 years (PW -> Mandela)


 I know this is a relatively "old" posting -- you said you lived in South Africa for 20 years and therefore you "know" Africa ? No way Jose


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Just curious Johanna, how long do you have to live in a Country before you "know" it?


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## Johanna (Apr 13, 2009)

Daxk said:


> Just curious Johanna, how long do you have to live in a Country before you "know" it?


Just curious too Daxk, do you mean a country or a continent?


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Country obviously,


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## Johanna (Apr 13, 2009)

Daxk said:


> Country obviously,


Did not think it was obvious , as Halo mentioned s/he knew Africa...

I suppose it depends on when and at what age one experienced a country...what happened during the time that you got to "know" a country and what makes you an expert in expressing your opinion.


Having lived in SA for most of my life and having worked with the previously disadvantaged people of this country, I think I have quite a good knowledge of this country. If you experience a country as a child or very young person, I honestly do not think you can form an opinion based on knowledge.

Enough said.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Johanna said:


> I know this is a relatively "old" posting -- you said you lived in South Africa for 20 years and therefore you "know" Africa ? No way Jose


Ummmm, yes way.:ranger:


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## Therooster (Jul 1, 2010)

Last year south african whites grew by 100 000 people (most of any population group by proportion) . Add to that 20 000 brits move here each year. The flow is very much in our favour. And that makes total sense. The U.K does not offer any form of lifestyle comparible to S.A.


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## Therooster (Jul 1, 2010)

Halo said:


> *Preface:*
> _I did say that what I said was anecdotal so I’m not sure why you made a point of it… If you want a specific fact/stat – Please ask and I will try and comply._
> 
> I would love to see those stats that say that crimes are under-reported in the UK compared to South Africa… I lived in the UK for 15 years and if you push someone that’s assault. Each crime is dealt with, I doubt the same can be said for South Africa – So I look forward to those statistics.
> ...


Please stop publishing stats from 8 years ago that are double as bad as present. I'ts dishonest and we've spoke about this before many times.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Therooster said:


> Please stop publishing stats from 8 years ago that are double as bad as present. I'ts dishonest and we've spoke about this before many times.


No you haven't.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Johanna said:


> Did not think it was obvious , as Halo mentioned s/he knew Africa...
> 
> I suppose it depends on when and at what age one experienced a country...what happened during the time that you got to "know" a country and what makes you an expert in expressing your opinion.
> 
> ...


so, how many years did you live in SA?
and how many years do you think you need to live in SA to "know" SA and its people?
10?20?30?40?50?60?70?


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Rooster : Please go back to the "my family get free medical" thread so see how you run when the facts start coming out. I have also posted stats (09/10 from the SAP) on crimes rates comparing suburbs in Cape Town (and NOT poor ones) compared to the WHOLE of Victoria. IF you have time look it up.


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## undrkvabrtha (Jul 12, 2010)

Daxk said:


> so, how many years did you live in SA?
> and how many years do you think you need to live in SA to "know" SA and its people?
> 10?20?30?40?50?60?70?


let's get real, people. If you're a Boer-supporter who went around touting it, it is inevitable that you wouldn't feel very welcome in South Africa. If you actually lived in that country and have been a part of the real culture, then you would not feel as threatened as the many Boers and prejudiced Europeans who had to leave when their superiority was taken away.

I'm South African, and my parents live there to this day. You've all gathered my opnions by now from this old post, I believe.

Suffice to say that my parents have been mugged just once (my father) in their time in SA - which is a few decades by now.


This is not about how long one has to live in a place to know what it's really about, but rather about whether SA is a country worth being in - and the answer is a resounding 'Yes'.

:clap2:


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## Therooster (Jul 1, 2010)

Daxk said:


> No you haven't.


I have brought it a few times before.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Rooster and Daxk, if you wish to carry on arguing, why dont you use the private message facility, its not good for the other forum users to witness these silly, inane arguments!

Jo


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## Therooster (Jul 1, 2010)

undrkvabrtha said:


> let's get real, people. If you're a Boer-supporter who went around touting it, it is inevitable that you wouldn't feel very welcome in South Africa. If you actually lived in that country and have been a part of the real culture, then you would not feel as threatened as the many Boers and prejudiced Europeans who had to leave when their superiority was taken away.
> 
> This is not about how long one has to live in a place to know what it's really about, but rather about whether SA is a country worth being in - and the answer is a resounding 'Yes'.
> 
> :clap2:


:clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2:


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