# how sick is this?



## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

Why would any decent person vote yes on this?

Necrophilia the next in thing in Egypt 









Egypt’s National Council for Women (NCW) has appealed to the Islamist-dominated parliament not to approve two controversial laws on the minimum age of marriage and allowing a husband to have sex with his dead wife within six hours of her death according to a report in an Egyptian newspaper.

The appeal came in a message sent by Dr. Mervat al-Talawi, head of the NCW, to the Egyptian People’s Assembly Speaker, Dr. Saad al-Katatni, addressing the woes of Egyptian women, especially after the popular uprising that toppled president Hosni Mubarak in February 2011.

She was referring to two laws: one that would legalize the marriage of girls starting from the age of 14 and the other that permits a husband to have sex with his dead wife within the six hours following her death.

According to Egyptian columnist Amro Abdul Samea in al-Ahram, Talawi’s message included an appeal to parliament to avoid the controversial legislations that rid women of their rights of getting education and employment, under alleged religious interpretations.

“Talawi tried to underline in her message that marginalizing and undermining the status of women in future development plans would undoubtedly negatively affect the country’s human development, simply because women represent half the population,” Abdul Samea said in his article.

The controversy about a husband having sex with his dead wife came about after a Moroccan cleric spoke about the issue in May 2011.

Zamzami Abdul Bari said that marriage remains valid even after death adding that a woman also too had the same right to engage in sex with her dead husband.

Two years ago, Zamzami incited further controversy in Morocco when he said it was permissible for pregnant women to drink alcohol.

But it seems his view on partners having sex with their deceased partners has found its way to Egypt one year on.

Egyptian prominent journalist and TV anchor Jaber al-Qarmouty on Tuesday referred to Abdul Samea’s article in his daily show on Egyptian ON TV and criticized the whole notion of “permitting a husband to have sex with his wife after her death under a so-called ‘Farewell Intercourse’ draft law.”

“This is very serious. Could the panel that will draft the Egyptian constitution possibly discuss such issues? Did Abdul Samea see by his own eyes the text of the message sent by Talawi to Katatni? This is unbelievable. It is a catastrophe to give the husband such a right! Has the Islamic trend reached that far? Is there really a draft law in this regard? Are there people thinking in this manner?”

Many members of the newly-elected, and majority Islamist parliament, have been accused of launching attacks against women’s rights in the country.

They wish to cancel many, if not most, of the laws that promote women’s rights, most notably a law that allows a wife to obtain a divorce without obstructions from her partner. The implementation of the Islamic right to divorce law, also known as the Khula, ended years of hardship and legal battles women would have to endure when trying to obtain a divorce.

Egyptian law grants men the right to terminate a marriage, but grants women the opportunity to end an unhappy or abusive marriages without the obstruction of their partner. Prior to the implementation of the Khula over a decade ago, it could take 10 to 15 years for a woman to be granted a divorce by the courts.

Islamist members of Egyptian parliament, however, accuse these laws of “aiming to destroy families” and have said it was passed to please the former first lady of the fallen regime, Suzanne Mubarak, who devoted much of her attention to the issues of granting the women all her rights.

The parliamentary attacks on women’s rights has drawn great criticism from women’s organizations, who dismissed the calls and accused the MPs of wishing to destroy the little gains Egyptian women attained after long years of organized struggle.


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

These sort of laws do nothing to promote Egyptian men or Islam,


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## aykalam (Apr 12, 2010)

Egyptian Twitter was ablaze yesterday with talks of this necrophilia madness, FJP denies the debate ever taken place in parliament. Someone's not telling the truth...


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## Sonrisa (Sep 2, 2010)

Awful. Just awful. 

I really hope that this is just a sick rumour to discredit the FJP and other islamist parties.


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## Maireadhoey (Jul 25, 2011)

I read this on twitter too, I think article came from Al-Arabia.....possibly throwing this into the ring so the marrying off of the 14 year olds dosent seem so bad.....smoke and mirrors, but it's good to know the wife will have the same rights.. WTF how exactly could that possibly work?:confused2:


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## hurghadapat (Mar 26, 2010)

Maireadhoey said:


> I read this on twitter too, I think article came from Al-Arabia.....possibly throwing this into the ring so the marrying off of the 14 year olds dosent seem so bad.....smoke and mirrors, but it's good to know the wife will have the same rights.. WTF how exactly could that possibly work?:confused2:


Lol....rigor mortis :nod:

Otherwise known as stiffness of death.


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## mamasue (Oct 7, 2008)

hurghadapat said:


> Lol....rigor mortis :nod:
> 
> Otherwise known as stiffness of death.




Lol....Pat, behave yourself!!!!

I saw this too.....how scarey is it... and can you imagine a (supposedly) grieving man climbing on board for a final quickie??? The mind boggles!!!!!


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## JayCT (Apr 7, 2012)

Seriously?!!!.. 
I've read this news on the English al arabiya and the Turkish forums were full of comments on this news yesterday. I think it is a perfect time to question if we really want a religion which can be interpreted like this to govern our lives and the atmosphere which allows people to come out with such proposals to the parliament. 
I mean, really, do the Egyptians want to live in a land where necrophilia and pedophilia are allowed? Is this being "Egyptian and proud"?


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## expatagogo (May 31, 2010)

I'm curious.

Why is it necessary to "legalize" God's law? This goes hand-in-hand with FGM; if it's compulsory, why isn't it practiced by every Muslim?

And, if it is indeed God's law, why is that Egypt just now got around to addressing it? What about the rest of the Muslim world? Are they all slackers? 

And, if it's allowed, is it compulsory?

Will there be self-help manuals? Or no?


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

ilovered said:


> that is creepy. . . but i think if you will try to look at it its like the last goodbye for the man's part.




and your comment is equally scary.

there is no justification for this sort of sexual practice


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## Qsw (Feb 1, 2012)

I think people should be careful when they are criticizing Egyptians or Islam based on the ideas of people from the fringe. This applies to all cultural groups, nationalities, or religions...

First of all, the fatwa allowing this version of necrophilia is coming from someone who also thinks it's OK for pregnant women to drink alcohol. Alcohol is completely forbidden in Islam except when you are in a real emergency situation, that is the mainstream thought on alcohol in Islam. For example if you are in the middle of the desert and you only have that to drink, or if you need to drink it for some emergency medical situation where there is no alternative. I'm no Islamic scholar, but I believe that is what the mainstream thoughts are on the subject. I think most Islamic scholars would not agree with this cleric's opinion on alcohol, and would in fact vehemently oppose it. His ideas on this and the necrophilia are definitely not mainstream...

There are lots of fatwas, people generally accept them according to their own personal beliefs on the subject. There is no Sunni "high authority", the closest to that would probably be Al Azhar today. How a fatwa is made I am not sure, but I believe it has to have some source coming from the Quran or Hadith. I don't think there is anything stopping a cleric from making a fatwa, it is really a voluntary process, if you believe in the reasoning behind it you follow it, otherwise you just disregard it. Shia Islam is different in this regard I believe, but I'm not sure by how much.

I am quite sure most Egyptians do not follow this cleric's fatwas, I am pretty sure most Moroccans don't either. 

If this necrophilia law passes, or has widespread support, it's a different story... 
Right now I won't even really believe it is a serious proposal until it gets more coverage, the article is vague about who proposed this law and whether it was even discussed in parliament.


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## DeadGuy (Jan 22, 2010)

MaidenScotland said:


> and your comment is equally scary.
> 
> there is no justification for this sort of sexual practice


What's really scary............Well apart from my nickname coming on a thread like this (Not as scary as embarrassing though)!!  Is the idea that in the middle of all the SH!T that the country's drowning in..........The best that the MPs can think of are stuff like banning porns.........Banning English..........But allowing intercourse with deceased partners and trying to make female circumcision an obligatory process!!!!


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## DeadGuy (Jan 22, 2010)

Qsw said:


> I think people should be careful when they are criticizing Egyptians or Islam based on the ideas of people from the fringe. This applies to all cultural groups, nationalities, or religions...
> 
> First of all, the fatwa allowing this version of necrophilia is coming from someone who also thinks it's OK for pregnant women to drink alcohol. Alcohol is completely forbidden in Islam except when you are in a real emergency situation, that is the mainstream thought on alcohol in Islam. For example if you are in the middle of the desert and you only have that to drink, or if you need to drink it for some emergency medical situation where there is no alternative. I'm no Islamic scholar, but I believe that is what the mainstream thoughts are on the subject. I think most Islamic scholars would not agree with this cleric's opinion on alcohol, and would in fact vehemently oppose it. His ideas on this and the necrophilia are definitely not mainstream...
> 
> ...


I think if you read again, it says:


MaidenScotland said:


> Egypt’s National Council for Women (NCW) has appealed to the Islamist-dominated parliament not to approve two controversial laws on the minimum age of marriage and allowing a husband to have sex with his dead wife within six hours of her death according to a report in an Egyptian newspaper.
> ......................


So they're trying to stop the parliament from discussing that, not alcohol for pregnant ladies.........

As for the rest of your post..................I won't get into religious details.........But I think everyone is aware of what's Islamic and what's not..........:ranger:


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## aykalam (Apr 12, 2010)

Egypt 'necrophilia law'? Hooey, utter hooey. - CSMonitor.com


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## Qsw (Feb 1, 2012)

DeadGuy said:


> I think if you read again, it says:
> 
> So they're trying to stop the parliament from discussing that, not alcohol for pregnant ladies.........
> 
> As for the rest of your post..................I won't get into religious details.........But I think everyone is aware of what's Islamic and what's not..........:ranger:


The point I was trying to make is that this cleric is not mainstream... as is evidenced by his views on alcohol. Put simply his ideas are on the fringe, and I would be very interested to see what he and anybody who supports this position on "farewell intercourse" uses as support.

Islam is very clear on many topics, but others are open to interpretation, and in most cases it cannot simply be assumed that the most conservative or extreme interpretations are the only correct or valid ones.


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## aykalam (Apr 12, 2010)

Qsw said:


> Islam is very clear on many topics, but others are open to interpretation, and in most cases it cannot simply be assumed that the most conservative or extreme interpretations are the only correct or valid ones.


Islam may be open to interpretation, but the law CANNOT be.


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## DeadGuy (Jan 22, 2010)

aykalam said:


> Egypt 'necrophilia law'? Hooey, utter hooey. - CSMonitor.com


I would've agreed that the chances for such a law to be voted on, or even discussed in the first place, are pretty slim before topics like banning porns, English, and before a female member of parliament would be trying to turn female circumcision into an obligatory action or to legalize minors' marriages.....!!!! I mean who would've believed that ANY of this would be a topic to be discussed before it was actually discussed? And sort of approved too for the porns......

We're talking about a bunch of ignorant idiots that have no sense of responsibility at all..........So personally speaking? I wouldn't be surprised if someone's actually proposed something like that already...........But if not, then I "think" that after those articles/reviews/criticism, no one will dare to do such a thing..........Hopefully not anyway


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## Qsw (Feb 1, 2012)

aykalam said:


> Islam may be open to interpretation, but the law CANNOT be.


Reading U.S. supreme court opinions makes me think the law is more open to interpretation than is usually thought  Although you are right, the law should be as straightforward as possible.

So far, I have not seen any discussion of this "law" covered anywhere. The article does not mention who drafted this law, when it was meant to be discussed, anything at all. I respect (even if I may not agree with or follow) fatwas based on solid religious backing. What could possibly be the backing for this ruling? I cannot think of any, would be very interested to find out. 

There are a lot of serious issues on the plate in regards to women's rights, time should not be wasted on rumors. If this was a real issue, I would think there would be more coverage. The least journalists could do would be to include some actual research and facts when they are covering topics like these... did the Al Arabiya journalist attempt to contact anybody to verify the truth behind this story?


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## aykalam (Apr 12, 2010)

Qsw said:


> Reading U.S. supreme court opinions makes me think the law is more open to interpretation than is usually thought  Although you are right, the law should be as straightforward as possible.
> 
> So far, I have not seen any discussion of this "law" covered anywhere. The article does not mention who drafted this law, when it was meant to be discussed, anything at all. I respect (even if I may not agree with or follow) fatwas based on solid religious backing. What could possibly be the backing for this ruling? I cannot think of any, would be very interested to find out.
> 
> There are a lot of serious issues on the plate in regards to women's rights, time should not be wasted on rumors. If this was a real issue, I would think there would be more coverage. The least journalists could do would be to include some actual research and facts when they are covering topics like these... did the Al Arabiya journalist attempt to contact anybody to verify the truth behind this story?


It was Ahram who first put this out, no sources. Then the whole thing snowballed. 

I agree: hugely urgent issues (new constitution should be top priority) and Egypt completely distracted with smokescreens like this


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

aykalam said:


> It was Ahram who first put this out, no sources. Then the whole thing snowballed.
> 
> I agree: hugely urgent issues (new constitution should be top priority) and Egypt completely distracted with smokescreens like this





don't forget we had the case of all those prisoners who were supposedly set free.. photograph included in the article.. It didn't happen.


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## marimar (Feb 9, 2011)

Qsw said:


> The least journalists could do would be to include some actual research and facts when they are covering topics like these... did the Al Arabiya journalist attempt to contact anybody to verify the truth behind this story?



Since when did journalists ever try to give out the real facts to any story if it would desensationalise it!!?? The media seems to be doing its usual business of reporting on stupid propaganda and idiotic stories. 
As aykalam says, there are more urgent, important things that the government should be concerned with, the constitution, unemployment, women's rights, security etc.
Although it does give us all a laugh to read such rubbish and hopefully, if true may make some of those loyal to these people think about who they vote for, that's if they disagree!!!!!


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## hhaddad (Apr 14, 2010)

marimar said:


> Since when did journalists ever try to give out the real facts to any story if it would desensationalise it!!?? The media seems to be doing its usual business of reporting on stupid propaganda and idiotic stories.
> As aykalam says, there are more urgent, important things that the government should be concerned with, the constitution, unemployment, women's rights, security etc.
> Although it does give us all a laugh to read such rubbish and hopefully, if true may make some of those loyal to these people think about who they vote for, that's if they disagree!!!!!


When you say the government you mean the peoples house which as far as i've seen so far is a group who have no experience in governing and think that anything they agree on should happen.wrong


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## marimar (Feb 9, 2011)

hhaddad said:


> When you say the government you mean the peoples house which as far as i've seen so far is a group who have no experience in governing and think that anything they agree on should happen.wrong


yes i meant the peoples house, sorry, but totally agree with you. My husband says watching them on tv is like watching a circus, the guy listening to all the others rambling on always looks so bored, I wonder why he took the job!!


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## expatagogo (May 31, 2010)

I agree it is a bit of a circus, however this really is Egypt's first go at representative government and there's a learning curve. Without a full government in place, particularly a constitution that enumerates powers, there really isn't much they can do knowing it will be meaningful on a permanent basis.


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## Qsw (Feb 1, 2012)

marimar said:


> Since when did journalists ever try to give out the real facts to any story if it would desensationalise it!!?? The media seems to be doing its usual business of reporting on stupid propaganda and idiotic stories.
> As aykalam says, there are more urgent, important things that the government should be concerned with, the constitution, unemployment, women's rights, security etc.
> Although it does give us all a laugh to read such rubbish and hopefully, if true may make some of those loyal to these people think about who they vote for, that's if they disagree!!!!!


I look forward to hearing more of these stories, they will no doubt get more creative in the future. It's quite amazing how quickly this type of news spreads and how far it can go without decent fact-checking...

I've gained a lot more respect for the role of proper journalism in democracy than I had before arriving here. I took NPR for granted. I hope the serious, good journalists in this country like Yosry Fouda find ways to improve this situation.


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