# Want to get married, girlfriend's mom difficult, manipulative woman



## Andrew916

My girlfriend and I are both in our early 30s and have been going out for many years. We are planning to get married and are trying to figure out how to approach her family. 

We both have stable jobs in the U.S. that provide us with a nice lifestyle. My girlfriend has been living in the U.S. for half of her life and is fully Americanized. Her whole family is bilingual (English/Japanese), so there is no language barrier between her family and me. I’ve visited her family a couple of times in Japan, and her dad would be perfectly fine with us getting married. The only thing stopping us from getting married is her mother, a bitter and angry woman who will likely use every excuse she can to stop us from going through with it.

Let me first say that I feel very sorry for my girlfriend that she has to deal with this unstable and emotionally abusive mother, even if they are separated by the ocean. Without going into too many details, let it suffice to say that her mom is likely to try every trick she knows to attempt to emotionally manipulate my girlfriend into not marrying me. (I’m quite sure, by the way, that this has nothing to do with me personally or the fact that I’m not Japanese.) My girlfriend is fully aware of how abusive and manipulative her mother can be, and absolutely wants to marry me one way or the other. At the same time, however, she would like to get her mom to accept the marriage. At the very least, she wants us to fulfill pre-marriage obligations that would be considered appropriate by normal Japanese.

My understanding is that in Japan a boyfriend will often propose to the girlfriend, the girlfriend will then tell her parents, and the guy will then go to her parents’ home for a marriage greetings Aisatsu. Many times that is the very first time that the parents and boyfriend would meet. After that, it seems that the parents of both sides may meet, after which some families may choose to have a Yuino engagement dinner, followed by the wedding.

Though it may be expensive and not exactly what we may want, we are willing to do the Aisatsu, and then bring my parents to Japan for Yuino. The whole thing, including the wedding, would be in Japan if need be. (Her mom basically refuses to leave the city they live in, and she would never leave Japan for a trip.) Even though we are willing to go through all of this trouble and expense, I’m not sure if it’s worth it, because it seems like no matter what we do, her mom will play emotional games and be mad.

Has anyone had experience in any situation like this? Should we broach her mom about the possibility of us getting married before we even get engaged? Do my parents need to meet her parents before we get married? Or should we just go ahead with the wedding while being prepared to deal with her mom’s anger and manipulation, based on the idea that no matter what we do, she is going to try to make our lives miserable? Any advice that anyone could provide would be really appreciated. Thanks.


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## kaz101

I know nothing about Japanese culture but I do know about manipulating mother-in-laws (MIL)....

It really depends on what your girlfriend is happy with... 

My in-laws have been divorced for many years. My Mother-in-law is a pain and wasn't invited to our wedding although my father in law was because we knew he wouldn't turn up since he lived in Haiti. However he did turn up and when my M-I-L found out she dis-owned my husband and hasn't spoken to him since. 

I have since tried to make peace between them but neither is willing to talk to the other. I still send her Christmas cards and update her with what we are up to and even called her before we left the UK but she doesn't want anything to do with us. 

My husband isn't that fussed since after years of manipulation (which I have witnessed and my M-I-L even tried to manipulate me but I wasn't having that!) he feels we are better off without her. 

So my parents haven't met my M-I-L although they meet my F-I-L just before our wedding. 

Whatever you decide it has to be a joint decision and your girlfriend must be happy with it and any consequences that follow on. 

Not sure that I've helped.....

Good luck with your decision.

Karen


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## Bevdeforges

Like Karen, I have little or no exposure to the Japanese culture on matters such as this. However, I have seen plenty of bi-cultural couples who basically have two weddings - one for each culture, making whatever accommodations to each side they are comfortable with.

Then again, have you asked your parents if they are willing to haul themselves over to Japan to go through what sounds like it will be quite an ordeal for them? If your future m-i-l refuses to leave the city, aren't your own parents entitled to make their own decision about whether or not to take part in this ritual?

Why not set the date for your wedding in the US, and then offer to go over to Japan for the traditional ceremony as part of your honeymoon? (Possibly allowing your parents to opt out if they prefer.) You can offer her parents the option of coming over to your US wedding or sitting tight and waiting for the Japanese one, but at least it's then their decision and they are presented with a fait accompli when you arrive in Japan. And if the m-i-l pitches a big hissy fit or something, you can postpone the Japanese ceremony - indefinitely, if necessary.
Cheers,
Bev


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## larabell

Oh my... I feel this one is right up my alley but, unfortunately, I have to get ready to leave for a couple days and can't answer in depth.

Have a look at my web page: Advice on Cross-cultural Marriage

When I get back, I'll post something more substantial (unless someone beats me to it ;-)).


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## larabell

Andrew916 said:


> ... My girlfriend has been living in the U.S. for half of her life and is fully Americanized. ... At the same time, however, she would like to get her mom to accept the marriage. At the very least, she wants us to fulfill pre-marriage obligations that would be considered appropriate by normal Japanese.


I'd be at least somewhat worried. Your girlfriend is obviously not fully "Americanized" if she's willing to put up with this kind of grief just to fulfill what is, essentially, a Japanese family tradition. That also shows that, despite the time she's spent away from her family, her family ties are still very strong.

Japanese are traditionally brought up to respect their parents. Her mother's opinion is obviously valuable to her, as I would expect from any Japanese female. But it's not just the wedding you have to worry about. If she respects her mother to the extent that she wants to try to placate her at any cost, despite knowing the likely outcome, you can be sure that she will continue to look to her mother for advice during the rough spots of your life together. I was in exactly that position for a time. Japanese spouse who was torn between her (apparent) love for me and her respect for her bitter mother. She even told me that it didn't bother her that her mother was against the marriage. However, in the end, family ties proved stronger. Her angry and bitter mother took every opportunity to try to drive a wedge between us and it eventually worked. I won't say things would have definitely worked between us if her mother had been accepting of the marriage -- I don't really know that. We unearthed more than our share of latent cultural issues while we were together. But it seems to me you're far more likely to stay together if you have Mom encouraging her to try to work things out than if you have Mom telling her that everything is your fault and the best thing she could do is pack up and come home (which she will occasionally feel like doing, anyway, even without Mom in the background egging her on).

Believe me... you're going to encounter cultural differences throughout your relationship that you never even realized were there (unless you've been living together or a decade or two, in which case you probably wouldn't need my advice ;-). According to my experience, many older Japanese still believe that the Japanese way is the only "right" way and that means that when you and your wife-to-be disagree on any point, she's going to have Mom in her corner telling her not to budge an inch because you're just a Westerner with no "common sense" (on the bright side, I did learn a *lot* about what the tern "common sense" really means ;-).

You should probably discuss this in depth with your girlfriend before getting engaged. Find out whether she will be strong enough to break her ties with her mother if the worst-case scenario comes to pass. Chances are, she won't be. That could put you in a very difficult situation, pretty much for the rest of your time together -- or at least until her mother is no longer around.

I hesitate to post such a "doom-and-gloom" forecast but it's probably better that you go in knowing what *could* happen and it doesn't than you start out with rose-colored glasses and get broadsided in the end. Japanese (in general, of course) don't seem to be able to break family ties as easily as we Westerners when there is a conflict between spousal and parental responsibility. Nor do parents tend to say to their children: "well, as long as you're happy, I'm happy" (not that Japanese parents have any corner on *that* market ;-). I've heard the same story many times myself and almost always in connection with a cross-cultural marriage. In fact, I know of only one cross-cultural couple, among dozens I've known, that are still together and, in that case, her parents get along with her husband (an American friend of mine) very well. 

I don't believe for a second that this doesn't have anything to do with your not being Japanese. If you think that, you probably don't have the whole picture. Her mother probably had her daughter's life all planned out in her mind (which almost certainly involved returning to Japan and marrying a doctor -- of her mother's choosing, of course) and now you're coming in from outside, like a bull in a china shop, and messing up those carefully laid plans. Add to that the very real possibility that her marriage to you means their daughter may never return to Japan at all -- and then it seems very unlikely you'll succeed in bringing her mother around to accept the marriage.

But... then again... every rule has its exceptions.

Anyway... if you want to keep me posted privately, or talk in greater detail off-list, use the link on the web page I posted earlier (or private mail via this forum). Good luck on sorting all this out...


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## Bevdeforges

Interesting post, Larabell - and I suspect that much of it applies to other cross-cultural relationships, too. (Certainly does to the French - who have the same idea that only the French way of doing things is right!)

Any interest here in starting a discussion over in the lounge about cross-cultural relationships in general? I certainly have lots of stories and comments I could contribute!
Cheers,
Bev


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## larabell

Bevdeforges said:


> Any interest here in starting a discussion over in the lounge about cross-cultural relationships in general?


That might be a productive conversation if we get enough people with enough time to contribute. I should have time to post a few opinions but maybe not quite enough time to lead the conversation. Actually, I've never even checked out the "lounge" yet.


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## Andrew916

*Thank you for your advice*

Thank you and everybody else who has given us advice on here. It has been thought provoking and helpful. 

I am wondering if you have any experience with a cross-cultural American-Japanese relationship where the Japanese person is half-Japanese, half-American. This throws another strange dynamic into the mix, given that her father is American and likes me (and her parents have a broken relationship). 

Also, assuming I choose to go ahead with the engagement and marriage, does anybody have advice on the order that I should do things? For example, proprosal, trip to Japan to see parents (would be my third), then my parents to Japan, then wedding (in Japan), and then other party/celebration in US. This is a scenario that someone proposed to me. Any thoughts? 

Thanks.






larabell said:


> I'd be at least somewhat worried. Your girlfriend is obviously not fully "Americanized" if she's willing to put up with this kind of grief just to fulfill what is, essentially, a Japanese family tradition. That also shows that, despite the time she's spent away from her family, her family ties are still very strong.
> 
> Japanese are traditionally brought up to respect their parents. Her mother's opinion is obviously valuable to her, as I would expect from any Japanese female. But it's not just the wedding you have to worry about. If she respects her mother to the extent that she wants to try to placate her at any cost, despite knowing the likely outcome, you can be sure that she will continue to look to her mother for advice during the rough spots of your life together. I was in exactly that position for a time. Japanese spouse who was torn between her (apparent) love for me and her respect for her bitter mother. She even told me that it didn't bother her that her mother was against the marriage. However, in the end, family ties proved stronger. Her angry and bitter mother took every opportunity to try to drive a wedge between us and it eventually worked. I won't say things would have definitely worked between us if her mother had been accepting of the marriage -- I don't really know that. We unearthed more than our share of latent cultural issues while we were together. But it seems to me you're far more likely to stay together if you have Mom encouraging her to try to work things out than if you have Mom telling her that everything is your fault and the best thing she could do is pack up and come home (which she will occasionally feel like doing, anyway, even without Mom in the background egging her on).
> 
> Believe me... you're going to encounter cultural differences throughout your relationship that you never even realized were there (unless you've been living together or a decade or two, in which case you probably wouldn't need my advice ;-). According to my experience, many older Japanese still believe that the Japanese way is the only "right" way and that means that when you and your wife-to-be disagree on any point, she's going to have Mom in her corner telling her not to budge an inch because you're just a Westerner with no "common sense" (on the bright side, I did learn a *lot* about what the tern "common sense" really means ;-).
> 
> You should probably discuss this in depth with your girlfriend before getting engaged. Find out whether she will be strong enough to break her ties with her mother if the worst-case scenario comes to pass. Chances are, she won't be. That could put you in a very difficult situation, pretty much for the rest of your time together -- or at least until her mother is no longer around.
> 
> I hesitate to post such a "doom-and-gloom" forecast but it's probably better that you go in knowing what *could* happen and it doesn't than you start out with rose-colored glasses and get broadsided in the end. Japanese (in general, of course) don't seem to be able to break family ties as easily as we Westerners when there is a conflict between spousal and parental responsibility. Nor do parents tend to say to their children: "well, as long as you're happy, I'm happy" (not that Japanese parents have any corner on *that* market ;-). I've heard the same story many times myself and almost always in connection with a cross-cultural marriage. In fact, I know of only one cross-cultural couple, among dozens I've known, that are still together and, in that case, her parents get along with her husband (an American friend of mine) very well.
> 
> I don't believe for a second that this doesn't have anything to do with your not being Japanese. If you think that, you probably don't have the whole picture. Her mother probably had her daughter's life all planned out in her mind (which almost certainly involved returning to Japan and marrying a doctor -- of her mother's choosing, of course) and now you're coming in from outside, like a bull in a china shop, and messing up those carefully laid plans. Add to that the very real possibility that her marriage to you means their daughter may never return to Japan at all -- and then it seems very unlikely you'll succeed in bringing her mother around to accept the marriage.
> 
> But... then again... every rule has its exceptions.
> 
> Anyway... if you want to keep me posted privately, or talk in greater detail off-list, use the link on the web page I posted earlier (or private mail via this forum). Good luck on sorting all this out...


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## Bevdeforges

While it's lovely to see someone actually do some planning for a change (long story - another time), I think you need to consider the possibility that at each step in the process, your next step may be determined by the reaction you get (especially from the m-i-l to be).

Propose, certainly, first. Then see what your fiancée's thoughts are on how to proceed. If the reaction in Japan when you go over to meet the mother is something other than what you expect (and potential m-i-ls have a real track record of surprising the heck out you!) you may want to reconsider what step is the next to take. Or even whether or not to subject your parents to making a trip over to Japan.
Cheers,
Bev


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## onesoul

Celestine Prophecy - James Redfield

WorldWideWeb dot homestar dot org/bryannan/celistin dot html

Fifth Insight - Read about Control Dramas and how to get around them. Let your fiance read it too. 

No matter how crappy the MIL if you try to BROACH the subject you will get negative from your Fiance. Let your Fiance figure out the way to get out of this Control Drama. 

Put the thoughts & resources in front of her .. Dont suggest anything.. Let her FIGURE IT OUT.


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## watamari

*order in which to proceed*

"At the very least, she wants us to fulfill pre-marriage obligations that would be considered appropriate by normal Japanese. My understanding is that in Japan a boyfriend will often propose to the girlfriend, the girlfriend will then tell her parents, and the guy will then go to her parents’ home for a marriage greetings Aisatsu. Many times that is the very first time that the parents and boyfriend would meet. After that, it seems that the parents of both sides may meet, after which some families may choose to have a Yuino engagement dinner, followed by the wedding.
Has anyone had experience in any situation like this? Should we broach her mom about the possibility of us getting married before we even get engaged? Do my parents need to meet her parents before we get married?"

Dear Andrew,
I'm Japanese and married to a gaijin, live in the US. My parents spent 10 years in the US when I was a child, and still keep up with many American friends. My dad also keeps up professional relationships with his foreign colleagues. They are open minded in many ways, but it's not always easy to suppress one's culture. I've been through hell and back with my parents on this marriage. One thing you don't mention is whether your girlfriend is an only child, where she is in the sibling hierarchy. What is really tough for my parents is that I am the older daughter in a two daughter family. I would be expected to take care of them in their old age, but I have abandoned them. My mother complains bitterly whenever she or my dad have some health crisis or other crisis. I am not there to help them, to visit the hospital, etc. And I feel really guilty. 
Many years ago, my relationship with them deteriorated to the point that my husband and I spent the most miserable Christmas in our lives when we visited them. It was horrible, the hidden anger underneath trying to celebrate Christmas together. I realized then that I had to do something to repair the rift. What I did was to write several long letters to them, telling them how much I loved and respected them. I described the things I appreciated about them, the things they'd done for me as a child. I offered for them to come live with us in the US in their old age, I meant it. And gradually, very gradually, things improved. It helped that my husband found a real job. It helped that we bought a house. It helped when we had a child. It helped when I took time off work to go to Japan when my father was very ill, and stayed a month. Last summer, I spent a month in Japan and hunkered down and cleaned and organized their house, top to bottom. 
I know deep down that they are still very sad. They don't want to come and live in the US with me. But they've come to appreciate how happy I am, they've come to appreciate the courteous, culturally sensitive bits of my husband, his efforts to learn and speak Japanese. 
Every family dynamic is different. But anger is often a cloak that hides fear and sorrow. To see an angry person as someone to be sorry for, someone weaker than oneself, and in need of empathy, might help you feel less defensive. 
Secondly, I think formalities are very important in dealing with older Japanese people. If you could meet with your girlfriend's parents, and formally ask for her hand in marriage, that would be great. Officially, you would be asking her father, so you're lucky it's not the other way around. Then it would be nice if the two sets of parents could meet. My parents traveled to meet my husband's parents, but they combined it with some other trip. But considering how difficult and expensive it is to do this, I don't think it's absolutely necessary. I think what traditionally gets discussed at these parental meetings is that the bride's parents give a large sum of money to the groom's parents, a dowry in old days, but now, money to pay for the wedding, and then the groom's parents give half or less of that amount to the bride's parents, I forget what for. Since you are both in your 30's and probably financially independent?, you might substitute for the parents formal meeting with some kind of formal discussion of wedding finances, and a monetary gift supposedly from your parents to them within a nice greeting card. (In the traditional meeting, the bride and groom know beforehand how much the bride's side will be giving the other, so that the groom can let his parents know how much money to give back in return.) Since Japanese weddings cost an arm and a leg, the money part can soften or exacerbate tensions. My husband and I skipped having a wedding in Japan to save money. I have no idea how your future in-laws feel about having a wedding in Japan. Maybe they'd be offended and think you're cheap, or on the other hand, maybe they don't want people to find out their daughter is marrying a gaijin and don't want to celebrate. I don't know.
My instinctive advice to you is to be as respectful as possible, and to keep being polite even when the other party is dastardly, until they start feeling ashamed of themselves. I don't know if it's going to work for you, but you'll have a chance over the long run, whereas burning bridges now will really mean no chance of anything ever working. Japanese parent child relationships are a lot gooier and sentimental than American ones, so I think it will be difficult for your girlfriend to cut ties with her parents. 
I know many many Japanese women happily married to Americans where I live. Only one couple got divorced, but in their case, the husband was more conservative and didn't like his wife having a life outside of marriage and taking care of kids!
Good luck! 
Mari


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## Hound Dog

Andrew916 said:


> My girlfriend and I are both in our early 30s and have been going out for many years. We are planning to get married and are trying to figure out how to approach her family.
> 
> We both have stable jobs in the U.S. that provide us with a nice lifestyle. My girlfriend has been living in the U.S. for half of her life and is fully Americanized. Her whole family is bilingual (English/Japanese), so there is no language barrier between her family and me. I’ve visited her family a couple of times in Japan, and her dad would be perfectly fine with us getting married. The only thing stopping us from getting married is her mother, a bitter and angry woman who will likely use every excuse she can to stop us from going through with it.
> 
> Let me first say that I feel very sorry for my girlfriend that she has to deal with this unstable and emotionally abusive mother, even if they are separated by the ocean. Without going into too many details, let it suffice to say that her mom is likely to try every trick she knows to attempt to emotionally manipulate my girlfriend into not marrying me. (I’m quite sure, by the way, that this has nothing to do with me personally or the fact that I’m not Japanese.) My girlfriend is fully aware of how abusive and manipulative her mother can be, and absolutely wants to marry me one way or the other. At the same time, however, she would like to get her mom to accept the marriage. At the very least, she wants us to fulfill pre-marriage obligations that would be considered appropriate by normal Japanese.
> 
> I solve my problem by telling my parents we were going to get married with a week and then tell them we were married in a private ceremony and invited them to spend time with us in the US at their convenience after we got married, we then went to spend a month in France.
> 
> My understanding is that in Japan a boyfriend will often propose to the girlfriend, the girlfriend will then tell her parents, and the guy will then go to her parents’ home for a marriage greetings Aisatsu. Many times that is the very first time that the parents and boyfriend would meet. After that, it seems that the parents of both sides may meet, after which some families may choose to have a Yuino engagement dinner, followed by the wedding.
> 
> Though it may be expensive and not exactly what we may want, we are willing to do the Aisatsu, and then bring my parents to Japan for Yuino. The whole thing, including the wedding, would be in Japan if need be. (Her mom basically refuses to leave the city they live in, and she would never leave Japan for a trip.) Even though we are willing to go through all of this trouble and expense, I’m not sure if it’s worth it, because it seems like no matter what we do, her mom will play emotional games and be mad.
> 
> Has anyone had experience in any situation like this? Should we broach her mom about the possibility of us getting married before we even get engaged? Do my parents need to meet her parents before we get married? Or should we just go ahead with the wedding while being prepared to deal with her mom’s anger and manipulation, based on the idea that no matter what we do, she is going to try to make our lives miserable? Any advice that anyone could provide would be really appreciated. Thanks.



Your problem is not unique and although I think the fact you are not Japanese does not work in your favor, it is a universal problem especially when one marries outside of ones culture. A manipulative mother makes the problem even worst.

You do have to disgust the problem with your girlfriend and have to go through the worst case scenarios with her. But even that is no guaranty when a crises comes.
I am French my husband is American, my sister married a Spaniard, my nephew married a Japanese and the other nephew is engaged to a Vietnamese. The Asian mothers are no piece of cakes but the Spaniard won the price! I thought of her when I read your thread.
The only thing you can do is have a serious talk with your girlfriend and agree on a course of action. If her mother is totally unreasonable she has to chose between you and her mother: it is that simple.
The Spanish mother in law had her son break every engagement he ever had until my sister came, she told her husband to chose between his mother and his wife and had her husband explain to his mother the way it was going to be. 
There was a truce..never great relationship but a truce, that is the best you can hope.
Cultural differences can be great but can also cause a lot of misunderstandings and you have to go through it over and over. Even the body language will full fool you..Getting married someone from another culture is great but it has its problems. Wait until you have children, then you can argue how to raise them and so on.. You have a plus, Japan is far away and your mother in law cannot pop in whenever there is a problem!


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## benben

Andrew916 said:


> My girlfriend and I are both in our early 30s and have been going out for many years. We are planning to get married and are trying to figure out how to approach her family. ... Any advice that anyone could provide would be really appreciated. Thanks.


2/21/09 4:43 PM
Having been in your situation twice and having handled it differently each time, maybe I can shed some light.

The Mother In Law can indeed make your life miserable, and getting out of it after marriage will be difficult and expensive. So this is the best time to heed Benjamin Franklin's advice: enter marriage with eyes wide open (link to is.gd/koPa ). Having been through a marriage and a divorce in Japan, I've learned it the hard way. To make a 20-year saga short: we married, shortly thereafter had a child. About 10 years later her mother passed away, she did some rather uh... self-destructive actions. Result: I moved to the USA, and due to family law in Japan our child stayed in Japan.

So, are your eyes opened yet? How is her relationship with her mother? And how is her relationship with her father? How has she handled differences of opinion between her mother and her father? You don't need to answer me, but you had better answer yourself. Maybe it will open your eyes.

My advice is to make sure she takes the lead in handling the issue with her mother. You can support her, you can be the engine that gives it power, but she must be the director. She knows her parents better than you do.

If you plan to live in the USA, then there are acculturation issues to deal with. Americans make friends in a different way - easier to make but easier to break, but require her to be more outgoing. In Japan I found friendships to be slower to start, but more solid, and more is expected. Life is not necessarily easier in the US.

So your post was a couple of months ago. How has it gone since then?


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